Sitting of 4 February 1931

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Southampton Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Friday.
Surrey County Council Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.

NEW WRIT.
For the County of Hants (Fareham Division), in the room of Major-General Sir John Humphrey Davidson, K.C.M.G., C.B., D.S.O. (Chiltern Hundreds).—[Sir Bolton Byres Monsell.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  NAVAL ARMAMENTS.
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Naval Armaments Treaty, 1930, has yet been ratified by the Irish Free State; whether lie has any information as to the cause of the delay in ratification; and whether the treaty is now in force?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Arthur Henderson): The instrument of ratification of the London Naval Treaty in respect of the Irish Free State was deposited in London on the 31st of December, and, in accordance with the provisions of Article 24 (2), the Treaty has now come into force in respect of the United States of America, the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, and Japan. As regards the second part of the question, Mr. McGilligan, the Minister of External Affairs of the Irish Free State, explained recently in the Free State Dail that difficulties had arisen from the dates of session of the Free State Parliament and the allocation of Parliamentary time.
  Commander SOUTHBYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the United States and Japanese Governments have been officially informed of the conversations carried on by Mr. Craigle, of the Foreign Office, at Geneva, Rome, and Paris; and, if not, will he state the reasons?
  Mr. HENDERSON: The United States and Japanese Governments have not been informed officially of these conversations, which were entirely of an informal nature, but they have been kept fully aware of them unofficially.
  Commander SOUTHBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind what was said by Members of his party when my right hon. Friend endeavoured to obtain some measure of agreement with the French regarding disarmament?
  Captain EDENasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has any information as to the naval programmes of France and Italy for the present year; whether these are in excess of those for the past year and, if so, by how much; and whether any joint representation on the matter is contemplated by the signatories of the London Treaty?
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. A. V. Alexander): The information asked for in the first part of the question is shown in tables of figures which I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Would the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Foreign Secretary the desirability and the necessity for all the signatories making a joint appeal in this matter?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: The Foreign Secretary is already busily engaged in trying to get a maximum amount of agreement on disarmament, and in this I am sure that all sections of the House will support him.
  Captain EDEN: Is there any increase?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: I would rather the hon. and gallant Gentleman examined the details of the figures. If he has a further question, perhaps he will put it, down.
  Following are the figures:

  The French and Italian programmes for the years 1929–30 and 1930–31 are as follow:—

  —

  FRANCE.

  ITALY.

  1929–30.

  1930–31.

  1929–30.

  1930–31.

  Cruisers, 10,000 tons

  1

  1

  2

  1

  Cruisers, 5,000 tons

  —

  —

  2

  2

  Flotilla Leaders

  6

  6

  —

  —

  Destroyers

  —

  —

  4

  4

  Submarines

  11

  11

  7

  22

  Minelayer

  —

  1

  —

  —

  Despatch Vessels

  2

  2

  —

  —

  Minesweeper (net layer)

  —

  1

  —

  —

  Commander BELLAIRSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the greatest possible margin of variation whi6h might, within the ambit of the definition of standard displacement contained in the Washington Treaty, Chapter II, Part IV, arise from non-agreement of the signatories as to weight of crew, provisions, ammunition, and warlike equipment to be carried by a warship in the standard condition of 10,000 tons?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: The total weight of full equipment of the items enumerated in the question amounts to about 8 to 10 per cent. of the standard displacement. In practice the maximum variation due to non-agreement of the signatory nations as to the weights of these items included in the standard displacement must therefore be very considerably less than this figure.
  Commander BELLAIRSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the product of the three dimensions of each of the 10,000-ton treaty cruisers built or building for the Italian Navy is considerably larger than that of any similar ship in other navies; whether the Board is satisfied that there is no case for inquiry among the cosignatories of the Washington Treaty into standard tonnage measurements: and, if not, whether he will submit to the American Government, as the initiators of the Washington Treaty, that the matter of standard tonnage should be further investigated?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: The reply to the first part of the question is in the nega-
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  tine, and to the second part in the affirmative. The third part accordingly does not arise. I may add that the Board of Admiralty regard the present definition of standard tonnage as being as definite as is practicable and have no anxiety as to any misuse being made by any naval power of the small margin of variation that may very easily exist.
  Commander BELLAIRSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the other signatories to the London Naval Treaty have yet communicated to this country the standard displacement of their warships existing at the date of the treaty coming into force both in their then condition and in the condition resulting from reconstruction?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: Immediately prior to the London Naval Conference the other signatory Powers to the London Naval Treaty communicated to this country the standard displacements of their warships built, building and authorised, including the new standard displacements of the vessels which had been modernised.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what will be the respective numbers of vessels of the battleship, light cruiser, destroyer, and submarine classes in commission in the navies of Great Britain, France, Italy, Japan, and the United States of America, respectively, at the end of 1932, which have been constructed since 1924
  Mr. ALEXANDER: With the hon. and gallant Member's permission I will circulate the reply, which is in tabular form, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Sir F. HALL: Is it a fact that while Great Britain is reducing her Navy, France and Italy have been increasing theirs, and will the right hon. Gentleman say whether that is right or wrong?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: That does not strictly arise out of the question, but when the hon. and gallant Gentleman is

  As far as can be estimated at present the following vessels completed since the beginning of the calendar year 1924 will be in existence at the end of the calendar year 1932:

  —

  British Commonwealth of Nations.

  U.S.A.

  Japan.

  France. (c)

  Italy.

  Battleships

  …

  2

  —

  —

  —

  —

  Cruisers

  …

  19 (a)

  14

  16

  10

  15 (d)

  Leaders and Destroyers

  …

  32 (b)

  —

  44

  45

  46 (d)

  Submarines

  …

  28

  17

  38

  69

  56 (d)

  (a) Includes two cruisers of the Royal Australian Navy.

  (b) Includes two destroyers of the Royal Canadian Navy.

  (c) All vessels of programmes prior to 1930 programme included, 1930 programme excluded.

  (d) 3 Cruisers, 4 Destroyers and 22 Submarines of the 1930 programme are included, but may possibly not be completed by the date in question.

  Major ROSSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how soon the Annual Return of British and foreign Fleets will be issued?
  The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. George Hall): The return will be issued early in March.
  Major ROSS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was already issued at this time last year, and does he realise how eagerly it is awaited by Members who take an interest in naval defence like the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Noel Baker) and myself?
  Mr. HALL: Last year it was issued in January, so that the return could be ready for the London Conference, but this year we are reverting to the normal procedure.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Will the return show the recent increases in the Italian and French Navies?
  Major ROSSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the total tonnage of warships at present under construction by the British Empire, France, and Italy, respectively?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: The total tonnage of vessels under construction by members of the British Commonwealth of Nations
  asking a question like the one on the Paper, about the number of vessels built in a special year, he must have regard to the previous number of those vessels.
  Sir F. HALL: I will take that point into consideration.
  Following is the reply:
  is 46,145, comprising 43,489 tons for the United Kingdom and 2,656 tons for Canada. The corresponding figure for France is approximately 100,684 tons. This excludes about 35,318 tons of vessels of the 1930 programme, believed not to have yet been ordered. The corresponding figures for Italy are 100,777 and 32,550 tons, respectively.
  Major ROSS: In view of those countries laying down more than double our tonnage, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that we are losing ground relatively in European waters as regards naval strength?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must really take into account wider figures than those that can be given in reply to his question; he must take into account the number of ships in each category under age at a given date, and it is not really a fair comparison to take only the figures that I have given.
  Major ROSS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I will take into consideration any figures which he can give me, but that he cannot give me such figures?
  Sir F. HALL: Is it not a fact that France and Italy, instead of reducing

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  their armaments, are increasing their programmes, while we are reducing; is that so or not?
  Mr. ALEXANDER: We have never sought to hide the facts, and we have indicated that we are doing our best to get France and Italy to adhere to the principles of limitation. If we are unable to do that, we shall have to reconsider the position.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    COUNCIL MEETING.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give a summary of the programme of work accomplished at the recent meeting of the Council of the League of Nations?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: I hope shortly to lay on the Table of the House a White Paper containing a summary of the proceedings at the recent session of the Council of the League of Nations.
    Mr. AYLES: Does the Foreign Secretary propose to issue the Financial Convention as a White Paper for the information of Members of the House?
    Mr. HENDERSON: It was not part of the business of the recent Council.

    ARREARS OF CONTRIBUTION.
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any countries which are members of the League of Nations are still in arrears in respect of any part of the contributions due from them for the expenses of the League during 1929; and, if so, will he give particulars?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. LEWIS: Will the right hon. Gentleman state if the different countries in arrears with their contributions lose any privilege or right on account of it?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I think not.
    Following is the reply:
    According to the latest available Return, dated the 7th of January, 1931, the
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    following contributions to the expenses of the League in respect of 1929 were then unpaid:—

    Gold francs.

    £

    Argentine

    736,558.14

    (29,460)

    Bolivia

    105,215.77

    (4,210)

    China

    651,318.03

    (26,050)

    Cuba

    19,300.88

    (770)

    Dominican Republic.

    1,610.77

    (65)

    Guatemala

    25,719,73

    (1,030)

    Honduras

    13,898.40

    (555)

    Nicaragua

    26,303.94

    (1,050)

    Paraguay

    21,203.37

    (850)

    Peru

    220,623.30

    (8,825)

  BRITISH TRAWLERS (ARRESTS, ICELANDIC WATERS).
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any recent representations have been made on behalf of His Majesty's Government to the Icelandic authorities on the subject of the frequent arrests of British trawlers by the Icelandic gunboats and the heavy punishments meted out for alleged illegal fishing?
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: No such representations have been made recently. I am, however, still awaiting full details before I can form a definite opinion on the cases referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend in his question of the 28th of January.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these cases have now reached a great number, and that in many of them the only offence of the fishermen is that they have taken shelter from gales and bad weather, and will he see how he can protect these hardworking men?
  Mr. HENDERSON: That will com,e under consideration when I have received the reports.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman have special inquiries made respecting the carrying out of the regulations on the stowing of gear, particularly in stormy weather, when our vessels have to run to harbour for shelter?
  Mr. HENDERSON: I will take that into consideration when I have the reports in my hand.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: Have the Icelandic authorities made any claim to extend their territorial waters to 12 miles?
  Mr. HENDERSON: Not that I am aware of.

  CHINA.

    RAILWAY BONDS (BRITISH HOLDERS).
    Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will ascertain from the Chinese Government whether that Government has placed the bonds of the Tientsin-Pukow and the Hu-Kuang Railways as a charge on the maritime Customs in accordance with its contract to British subjects who subscribed to the loans of those railways, in view of the fact that there has been a revision of the Chinese tariffs and an abolition of likin?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The proposals tabled by the Chinese representatives at the Conference, which opened in Nanking in November, seemed to point in the direction which the hon. Member desires. These loans cannot, however, be treated independently of the other obligations of the Chinese Government, and I think it will be better not to anticipate the deliberations of the Conference at which they are being considered.
    Mr. SAMUEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange with the Chinese authorities for an agreement to be arrived at before the Third Reading of the China Indemnity (Application) Bill, and will he be prepared to make a statement if I again raise these questions on the Report stage?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I am afraid I cannot comply with the first part of the hon. Member's request, to hold the Bill up until that agreement has been reached, but, if the hon. Member raises a Debate, we will be prepared to reply.

    SITUATION.
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any alteration in the situation in China since he made his last statement; and will he give particulars?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: There has been no change in the situation since the 21st
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    of January, when a statement was made in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald).

  RUSSIA.

    DISARMAMENT CONFERENCE.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLANDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Soviet Government is taking part in the forthcoming Disarmament Conference?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The Soviet Government have taken part in the proceedings of the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference, and I have every reason to hope that they will also take part in the Disarmament Conference.

    LENA GOLDFIELDS (ARBITRATION AWARD).
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the discussions between His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow and the Soviet Government with reference to the Lena Goldfields arbitral award have yet been terminated; what has been the result; has the Soviet Government yet indicated its intention to pay anything to the company under the award; and, if so, how much?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The discussions referred to by the hon. and gallant Member are still proceeding, and I can, therefore, make no further statement at present.
    Captain MACDONALD: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is a likelihood of agreement?
    Mr. HENDERSON: As the hon. and gallant Member knows, this is a very difficult case, and I am doing my best. I have had interviews with representatives of the company, and I have instructed the Ambassador in Moscow, who is doing his level best, and there will be no delay, so far as we are concerned.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "LUCIA" (DISCIPLINE).
    Commander SOUTHBYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any court of inquiry has been held upon any

    1793
    of the officers of His Majesty's ship "Lucia"; whether there has been any recommendation that any of them should be tried by court-martial, seeing that the termination of their appointments, being placed on half-pay and receiving an expression of the Board's serious displeasure does, in the circumstances, constitute an act of summary punishment; whether any of these officers have applied for trial by court-martial; and, if so, what action has been taken in the matter by the Admiralty?
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the First, Lord of the Admiralty whether any of the officers whose appointments to His Majesty's ship "Lucia" were recently terminated have applied to be court-martialled; and, if so, what has been the decision of the Board of Admiralty?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: A court of inquiry investigated the whole of the circumstances leading up to the recent incident in the "Lucia," and heard the evidence of the officers concerned. With regard to the remaining parts of the questions, I have nothing to add to the statement I made last week.
    Commander SOUTHBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the investigations which have been made into the "Lucia" case justify the censure which he read out in the House the other day being applied equally to the captain and the first divisional officer, and, if so, will he say whether any communication has been received from the captain calling for a court-martial?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: The decision of the Board of Admiralty was taken with regard to all the facts, and I think that is a sufficient answer. The answer to the second part of the supplementary question is in the negative.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: Is the Board of Admiralty hesitating to grant a court-martial because it believes that the action which the Board has taken with regard to these officers would not be upheld by an impartial tribunal?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: Certainly not. I do hope that such insinuations will not be made.
    Lieut. - Commander KEN WORTHY: Was not the same procedure as this
    1794
    adopted in the case of Admiral Collard after the "Royal Oak" case; and is it not the case that it was decided without a court-martial that he should not be employed again?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise.
    Rear-Admiral SUETERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any of the seamen involved in the incident that occurred in the submarine depot ship His Majesty's ship "Lucia" were submarine ratings'; and whether the captain and two officers who have been censured by the Admiralty were submarine officers?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: None of the seamen was a submarine rating; of the three officers mentioned in the question, the commanding officer alone was a submarine officer.

    OFFICERS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
    Mr. O. LEWISasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will arrange for the Board of Admiralty to come to a definite decision with regard to the award of marriage allowance to Naval officers before the Navy Estimates are presented to the House of Commons?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: I can state definitely that the forthcoming Navy Estimates will not contain any such provision, but that does not mean that a final decision has been come to on the matter, which will continue under re-examination.
    Mr. LEWIS: Am I to understand that in the right hon. Gentleman's view the urgency of this problem is much less now that he is in office?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: The hon. Member must not understand anything of the kind. I have given the hon. Member the view of the Admiralty for the time being.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: May I ask exactly what the right hon. Gentleman means? Is he aware that for several months past the answer has been made that this matter is being inquired into? What is the result of the inquiries?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: The result of the inquiries is what I am sure the hon. Member would have expected, from his long experience in the matter, and that

    1795
    is that a very strong case is put from both points of view, and we are not at present prepared to give a decision.
    Commander SOUTHBY: When will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to remedy this injustice?

    DOCKYARD EMPLOYÉS (NOTICE OF DISCHARGE).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the one week's notice substituted for the two weeks' notice to which a dockyardsman was previously entitled, still operates in His Majesty's dockyards and establishments?
    Mr. G. HALL: No alteration has been made in the regulations which provide for a week's notice of discharge being given to workpeople, but on occasions when large discharges have been made, the yard officers have been instructed to give whenever possible a fortnight's notice to men selected for discharge.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Is the hon. Gem tleman aware that the previous rule was that all men were entitled to a fortnight's notice?
    Mr. HALL: I am afraid that there is a misunderstanding, and I will look into the matter.

    SICKNESS INCIDENCE.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can give any reasons for the increase in the incidence of disease in the Royal Navy, as revealed in reports on the health of the Navy for 1929?
    Mr. G. HALL: The increases in the incidence of disease in the Royal Navy during 1929, was due principally to augmented figures for influenza and diseases of the respiratory system. The vast majority of these cases were of a mild nature. The slight increases shown in 1929 afforded no grounds for anxiety as to the state of health existing in His Majesty's Navy.

    CINEMATOGRAPH APPARATUS.
    Mr. DAYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any ships in His Majesty's Navy have now been fitted up with sound-film apparatus; and will he give particulars?
    Mr. G. HALL: Certain sound-film apparatus has been lent to five selected ships for trial.
    Mr. DAY: Can my hon. Friend say, then, how the other ships are going to fare; is it not a fact that it is almost impossible to get silent films?
    Mr. HALL: Silent films will continue in those ships when it is possible to get them.
    Mr. DAY: Will sound apparatus be given to the other ships?
    Mr. HALL: There are all kinds of questions to be borne in mind before a decision is arrived at, such as the question of expense, but it is to be understood that the Admiralty will not meet the expenditure out of public funds.
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: Are these installations lent by British firms, or are they American?
    Mr. HALL: The apparatus is British in three cases, and American in two.

    TUBERCULOSIS.
    Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of cases of invaliding from the Royal Navy for tuberculosis in 1930; and if he will say in how many of these cases attributability was allowed and pensions granted?
    Mr. G. HALL: The number invalided was 203, and in 149 of these cases pensions were granted on the attributable scale.
    Sir B. FALLE: In view of these terrible figures, will the hon. Gentleman consider appointing an independent tribunal, if it can be shown that such tribunal will not cost the Army anything?
    Mr. HALL: The allowance has been increased, and, if my hon. Friend will compare the figures for 1930 with those for 1929, he will see that there is a considerable improvement.
    Sir B. FALLE: I am aware of that fact; this matter has been before the House for many years. Will the hon. Gentleman consider the appointment of an independent medical tribunal?

    PLYMOUTH.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he

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    has considered the recent resolution sent to him by the Plymouth Incorporated Mercantile Association to the effect that the policy of the Admiralty in continuing the depletion of the naval base at Plymouth, by reduction in the number of ships and personnel, is not in the best interests of the nation; and what action he proposes to take?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: It is not the policy of the Admiralty to deplete the naval base at Plymouth, by reduction in the number either of ships or of personnel, except in so far as this is necessitated by any general reduction of the Fleet and of naval establishments. Actually, Plymouth has suffered proportionately lean reduction than have other naval ports.

    1933 PROGRAMME (CRUISERS).
    Major ROSSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty when it is proposed to lay down the 6-inch gunned cruisers of the 1933 programme; and when is it expected that they will be completed?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: It would be premature at the present time to attempt to forecast particulars in regard to the naval programme for which Parliament will be asked to vote supplies in 1933. I may say that the period that would be required for the building of a 6-inch gun cruiser of the "Leander" type is estimated to be 21½ years from the date of order.
    Major ROSS: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the urgency of getting new 6-inch gunned cruisers completed quickly?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: I am sure that we appreciate that much more than the last Government, which did not lay down any.

  ADMIRALTY (EX-SERVICE MEN).
  Mr. O. LEWISasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will explain why the percentage of ex-service men employed in the Admiralty Department is lower than that of any other Government Department and, in particular, is much lower than in the War Office or the Air Ministry?
  Mr. G. H. HALL: I would remind the hon. Member that a high proportion of Admiralty staff belong to the shipbuilding, engineering and allied industries which, as he will be aware, were only allowed to volunteer for military service to a very limited extent, because they were urgently required for warship and merchant shipbuilding. Allowing for this special feature, the Admiralty percentages do not compare unfavourably with other Departments. As regards the War Office and Air Ministry, the figures on which the percentages are based (Command Paper 3740) do not included large numbers of technical staffs at outlying stations, &c., whereas the Admiralty figures include this type of staff. Moreover, the Air Ministry is a comparatively new Department, in which recruitment of permanent staff has taken place in post-War years to a larger extent than in other Departments.

  KENYA (MAIZE INDUSTRY).
  Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the amount of the subsidy paid during 1930 by the Kenya Government to maize growers in the Colony, and the amount proposed to be paid during 1931?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Dr. Drummond Shiels): In 1930 the Government of Kenya assisted the maize industry of the Colony by making recoverable advances under the Agricultural Advances Ordinance to the extent of £30,975 and by refunding charges for grading and conditioning to the amount of £12,155. In addition, railway rates were reduced at a cost of £53,900, of which one half was refunded to the Transport Administration by the Colonial Government and is recoverable from the industry. The Transport Administration also refunded port storage charges to the amount of £15,500. My Noble Friend recently approved of a scheme of recoverable advances free of interest to an amount not exceeding £108,000 in respect of the maize crop harvested towards the end of last year and the beginning of this year.
  Sir R. HAMILTON: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether these payments have been made to all growers of maize, or only to the European?
  Dr. SHIELS: No, Sir, there is no power of discrimination in the committee.

  CYPRUS (BUDGET DEFICIT).
  Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how it is proposed to meet the deficit in the Cyprus Budget; whether economies in administration are contemplated; and what proportion the cost of salaries bears to the whole Budget expenditure of the Colony?
  Dr. SHIELS: It is proposed to meet the deficit from the Colony's surplus balances and Reserve Fund. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative; and, with regard to the third, the proportion is estimated to be between 40 per cent. and 50 per cent., including the teachers in the schools throughout the island.
  Sir R. HAMILTON: Does not the hon. Gentleman consider that this percentage for salaries is a very high percentage of the total expenditure?
  Dr. SHIELS: Yes, Sir, I agree that it appears to be a high percentage, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that Cyprus has a very small population spread over a considerable area and that tends to make the administrative charges higher. In addition to that, in the last few years we have been trying to improve the technical services of Cyprus, medical and agricultural and others, and that cannot be done without the use of experts, who are expensive. At the same time, the Governor has appointed a committee to go into the finances of the Colony to see whether a saving cannot be made.
  Mr. McSHANE: May we have the names of the committee?
  Dr. SHIELS: No, Sir, I am not able to give the names now, but, if a question is put down, I shall be glad to try to obtain them.
  Mr. McSHANE: Can the hon. Gentleman say when he expects a report?
  Dr. SHIELS: No, Sir, the committee has only just been appointed.
  Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Will those experts be available for the large-scale farming experiments in this country?
  Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: Has the possibility or desirability of a temporary remission of the contributions of Cyprus to Imperial defence been considered?
  Dr. SHIELS: I am afraid I should re quire notice of that question.

  NORTH CHARTERLAND EXPLORA TION COMPANY.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to make any statement with regard to the request of the North Charterland Exploration Company for a public inquiry to be held into the circumstances under which an agreement was entered into between the Colonial Office and the British South Africa Company?
  Dr. SHIELS: The Company has been informed that, subject to certain conditions, which are now under consideration, the Government of Northern Rhodesia will hold a public inquiry covering matters relevant to the Company's claims.
  Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Will that inquiry be held here or in Rhodesia?
  Dr. SHIELS: Yes, here, in London.

  AVIATION.

    AIRSHIP R 101 (INQUIRY).
    Mr. WELLSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when he expects to receive the report of the court of inquiry dealing with the disaster to the airship It 101; and whether he proposes to make the report public as soon as it is available?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Mr. Montague): The report will certainly be published without delay as soon as it is available. For the reasons given in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) on the 22nd January, I cannot yet give a definite date for its publication.
    Captain HAROLD BALFOUR: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the House will have an opportunity of discussing the report and the findings?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: Apart from any other occasion, an opportunity will present itself on the Estimates.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Are we to understand that the hon. Member has the report?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: No, Sir.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Has the report not been submitted to His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: The report is not in the hands of His Majesty's Government.
    Captain BALFOUR: Will it be out before the Estimates are discussed?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I cannot answer that question definitely, but I should imagine that it will be ready in a very short time.
    Captain Sir WILLIAM BRASS: Can the hon. Gentleman say how long it is since the last evidence was given?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: No, I cannot say that, but the reason for the time that has elapsed is the nature of the experiments which have had to be undertaken at the National Physical Laboratory. They have been very difficult experiments.
    Mr. WELLS: I will put down a question again in a week's time.

    AERODROMES, MORAY AND ELGIN.
    Mr. SMITHERSasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many aerodromes and landing places there are in the county of Moray and the county of Elgin; and will he give the names of each and the cost to the State?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: There are no service or licensed civil aerodromes or landing grounds in the county of Moray or Elgin, maintenance of which entails any cost to the State. There are, however, in this county as in others, areas available for use for individual flights by arrangement with the owners on payment of a small charge on each occasion of such user.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the present condition of the landing place at Lossiemouth?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I could not answer that question without notice.

    AIR SERVICES (FAR EAST).
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he has any information concerning the establishment of a Berlin-Nanking air service by the German Lufthansa Company; whether he is aware that an air expert has been attached to the United States trade commissioner's office in Shanghai; and what steps are being taken to further the interests of British civil aviation in the Far East?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: As regards the first part of the question, an agreement was signed a few months ago between the Chinese Government and the Deutsche Lufthansa for the establishment of a Berlin-Nanking air service, and a SinoGerman air traffic company is about to be formed which will be financed both by the Chinese Government and the Lufthansa. The air service between Berlin and Shanghai, via Nanking, is to be confined to the carriage of mails in the first place, but later may be used for the transport of passengers. The Berlin-Peiping section of the route is expected to be in operation during next spring, but it will probably be another year before a regular service between Peiping and Nanking is in operation. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part of the question, any proposals for furthering British aviation in the Far East will be sympathetically considered.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE (COLLISIONS).
  Captain BALFOURasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many collisions between aircraft in the air occurred in the Royal Air Force during 1930; how many personnel were killed or injured from this cause; and what steps are being taken to improve the field of visibility of the pilots on service and civil aircraft?
  Mr. MONTAGUE: As regards the first two parts of the question, during 1930 there were eight collisions the air between aircraft of the Royal Air Force in which 10 personnel were killed and five were injured; in addition, three collisions occurred which did not involve death or injury. As regards the last part of the question, if the hon. and gallant Member

  1803
  implies that a restricted field of vision is a predominating cause of collisions, this is not borne out by the facts. At the same time I can assure him that the necessity of securing to the pilot the best possible field of view is always regarded as a most important factor in the design of aircraft.
  Captain BALFOUR: May I ask whether a definite standard of field of vision is being considered as part of the requirements for the issue of a certificate in the case of civil aircraft?
  Mr. MONTAGUE: We demand the very highest standard.
  Captain BALFOUR: May I have an answer to my question? Is it being considered as a definite standard to be attained before a certificate will be granted?
  Mr. MONTAGUE: I did not quite understand the hon. and gallant Member's question. I think the matter depends entirely on the design of the aircraft and the purpose for which it is used.
  Sir W. BRASS: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether parachutes are carried for all the passengers in these machines?
  Mr. MONTAGUE: The use of parachutes is compulsory in ordinary Air Force training. I do not know whether there are any exceptions to this rule in special cases.
  Sir W. BRASS: I wish to know whether in those instances in which collisions occurred the passengers and the pilots were wearing parachutes compulsorily or not?
  Mr. MONTAGUE: Yes, I think the answer is definitely in the affirmative; but perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question.

  TRANSPORT.

    MOTOR HEAD LIGHTS.
    Mr. FREEMANasked the Minister of Transport whether he is now able to state when he will introduce regulations for controlling dazzle from motor headlamps under the powers conferred by the Road Transport Act, 1927; and whether, when framing such regulations, he will
    1804
    leave the way open for any approved permanent lighting system which will be free from dazzle and yet give an effective driving light so as not to perpetuate exclusively the system of dipping?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I am about to circulate to the motoring organisations and to other bodies interested in the matter a draft of regulations which I propose to make on this subject. Any regulations which may be made can be varied at any time in accordance with the progress made in invention and design.
    Mr. FREEMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proposal contained in this question of having a system which is not under manual control will be included in those regulations?
    Mr. MORRISON: I am not quite sure yet what the system will be, and I am not in a position to give any information at the moment.
    Mr. FREEMAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is a great advantage in having such a system, and therefore, not open to the disadvantage of having to manoeuvre these things at an inconvenient time?
    Mr. MORRISON: I have seen so many snags about this question that I should not pledge myself in advance on that point.
    Sir W. BRASS: Will the right hon. Gentleman get a report from France as to the new anti-dazzle regulations which have been in force in France since the 1st of January?
    Mr. MORRISON: I will look into that point.

    LONDON TRAFFIC (HORSE-DRAWN VEHICLES).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Transport whether he has any recent statistics showing the number of horse-drawn vehicles for the carriage of goods in regular use in the London area under his jurisdiction; and if he has reason to believe that the number of these horse-drawn vehicles is increasing?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: No information is available relative to the number of horse-drawn vehicles in

    1805
    regular use in London, but during a census taken one day in 1930 for a period of 12 hours at a number of important points in the London area, the number of horse-drawn vehicles registered as passing those points was about 30 per cent. less than the number recorded in 1927.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: What steps is the Minister of Transport taking to deal with this matter?
    Mr. MORRISON: There are suggestions that horse-drawn vehicles should be prohibited in certain areas in London, but there is very strong opposition to that also. I think the figures indicate that the problem is in a fair way to solving itself.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Are not horse-drawn vehicles, especially in the City of London, very useful indeed for the purposes of trade?
    Mr. MORRISON: There can be no question that, as a matter of sheer transport economics, for short distance journeys, with frequent stoppages, the horse is still the more economical.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does that not mean continually stopping all the rest of the traffic?
    Commander BELLAIRS: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether these horses are subsidised by the War Office?

    MOTOR INSURANCE CERTIFICATES.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the size of the insurance certificates, 6½ inches by 2½ inches, issued to all motorists; and, seeing that he promised that these should be of a reasonable size, will he take steps to reduce their size in the near future?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: Having regard to the matter which must necessarily be included, I do not consider that an insurance certificate of the dimensions mentioned is of an unreasonable size. I did not prescribe a definite size as the insurance companies represented that duplicates for office registration of a size that would suit one company would not suit another. The importance of keeping the insurance certificate as small as conveniently possible was impressed upon them.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shape just does not allow it to go into the pocket. It is about three-quarters of an inch too long, and will he not approach the insurance companies to see if they can reduce the size in accordance with the promise which he has made?
    Mr. MORRISON: I will keep that point in mind in any future discussions that may take place.

    TRANSPORT CHARGES.
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Transport whether he can supply figures showing what has been the reduction in the cost of transport and commodities, if any, due to the operation of the Derating Act?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    I have no information as to the total reductions in transport charges or the cost of commodities resulting from the operation of the Local Government Act, 1929. My hon. Friend may, however, be interested to have the following information as to the railway freight rebates allowed under the eleventh schedule to that Act. During the year (ended on the 30th September, 1930) the average rebates allowed by the railway companies were approximately as follows:

    Per

    ton.

    s.

    d.

    Coal, Coke and Patent Fuel:

    For export

    0

    7½

    Delivered to iron or steel works

    0

    9

    Other Selected Industrial traffics:

    (Including iron ore and limestone) for iron or steel works

    0

    4½

    Selected Agricultural traffics (except Milk and Livestock)

    1

    2¼

    Per gallon.

    Milk

    0.14d.

    As from the 1st December last the rates of all these rebates were increased, but I am not yet able to state the resulting average rebate per ton.

    TRACTION ENGINES (STEAM).
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Transport whether

    1807
    he is aware that danger is caused to other road users by the emission of steam which obscures the view of other traffic by traction engines, etc.; and whether he proposes to issue any orders to prevent this danger?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: The matter referred to by the hon. and gallant Member is dealt with in Regulations Nos. 17 and 67 of the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, 1931, which came into force on the 15th January and of which I am sending him a copy.

    YORKSHIRE TRACTION COMPANY (MOTOR DRIVERS' HOURS).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the action of the Yorkshire Traction Company, who are insisting upon motor-omnibus drivers, in some cases, working on and off for as long as 13 hours each day and will he state what steps he is taking to deal with the resultant danger to the drivers and the travelling public?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the provisions of Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act which limit the hours during which drivers of public service vehicles may remain continuously on duty, and of Section 93 of that Act which deals with the wages and conditions of persons employed in connection with such vehicles. I intend that these Sections shall become effective on the 1st April.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In view of the obvious injustice to the drivers, and the danger to the travelling public, will the right, hon. Gentleman make inquiries, and let us have some further information?
    Mr. MORRISONI gather that the difficulty which has arisen in this case is in connection with the problem of the spread-over, which, I hope, as a result of discussion between the parties concerned, will be solved. In any case, it will not be possible for the number of hours to exceed those stipulated, and the question of danger may not arise. I am anxious that the men shall not be inconvenienced by an unduly long spread-over, and I hope all employers will be as helpful as they can be in that matter.

  TRADE DISPUTES AND TRADE UNIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Prime Minister whether, with reference to the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions (Amendment) Bill, he proposes to ask the House to confer any special powers upon the Chairman of the Committee?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): No, Sir.

  AGRICULTURE (CEREAL POSITION).
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLANDasked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to state the policy of the Government as regards cereal agriculture?
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addison): I have been asked to reply. I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer given by the Prime Minister on Monday of last week to a question by the Noble Lord the Memlber for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer) on this subject, to which I have nothing to add.
  Sir A. STEEL - MAITLAND: Can neither the Prime Minister nor the Minister of Agriculture give any indication as to when the policy will be made public?
  Dr. ADDISON: The Prime Minister, in his reply to the question to which I have referred, a copy of which I will send to the right hon. Gentleman, answered quite explicitly that when we are ready to make an announcement we shall do so.
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be ready to make an announcement, in view of the very short number of weeks that remain for farmers to determine what sort of crops they will put in?
  Dr. ADDISON: I am fully aware of that fact, and I am taking all those matters into consideration.
  Viscountess ASTOR: As there is no Labour policy, will it be a Liberal policy?
  Dr. ADDISON: The policy of the Labour party is before the House to-day.

  EARL HAIG STATUE.
  Mr. SMITHERSasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will consider the advisability of inviting another artist to carve the Haig statue?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Lansbury): I have given the matter of the national memorial to Earl Haig careful consideration, and have decided to ask Mr. Hardiman, whose models on two occasions have been approved by the appointed assessors, to execute the memorial. I am satisfied that Mr. Hardiman will produce a statue which will be a credit both to the sculptor himself and to the subject of his work.
  Mr. SMITHERS: May I ask the First Commissioner of Works whether, in view of the precedent of the duplication of the statues of Lord Roberts, the Prince Consort and General Gordon, he can now consider having a copy of the statue in Edinburgh, which was approved by Lord Haig himself, set up in London?
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am very sorry not to be able to oblige the hon. Gentleman, but this matter has really received very considerable consideration from a number of quite prominent men in the arts, and their decision is as I have just stated.
  Sir B. FALLE: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow a free vote of the House on this subject?
  Mr. LANSBURY: I think that the Members of this House are not really aware of the facts of this case. The assessors, who were appointed before I took office reported somewhere about 18 months ago, approved of the model. There was some dissension raised as to that model, and the assessors were called together to discuss modifications with the artist. As a result, another model was submitted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Far worse!"] Whether it is worse or whether it is better, the fact remains that the assessors, who are Lord D'Abernon, Sir William Goscombe John, Mr. Daniel, Sir Herbert Baker, and Mr.
  Reynolds-Stephens, all of whom were nominated by the Royal Academy, the National Gallery, the Royal Institute of British Artists and the Royal Society of Sculptors, have unanimously approved Mr. Hardiman's work with some slight modification. The military advisers—hon. Members seem so intensely interested that they do not want to hear the answer—and three personal friends of the late Lord Haig, Sir Noel Birch, Sir Walter Braithwaite and Sir Herbert Lawrence also agree with the assessors. That is the last word as far as I am concerned.
  Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: In view of the general dissatisfaction with the statue, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will take into consideration the question of eliminating the horse altogether?
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am sorry to say "no."

  EDUCATION EXPENDITURE, DURHAM AND LONDON.
  Mr. LAWTHERasked the President of the Board of Education (1) the cost per scholar for elementary education in the areas covered by the Durham and London County Councils, respectively, for the years 1927, 1928, and 1929;
  (2) the cost per scholar for higher education in the areas covered by the Durham and London County Councils, respectively, for the years 1927, 1928, 1929, and 1930?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Sir Charles Trevelyan): As the answers to these questions involve a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following are the answers:
  The cost per child of elementary education, calculated upon the actual net expenditure of the local education authorities was as follows:

  1811
  Expenditure on higher education generally does not admit of being expressed in terms of cost per pupil; but
  These latter figures are net, after deducting receipts from fees, etc., and they do not include expenditure on loan charges or general administration.

  COTTON INDUSTRY.
  Mr. ARTHUR LAWasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is prepared to introduce legislation with a view to establishing a national board of cotton control, charged with the duties of securing economic reorganisation from the raw-cotton stage to the finished product, dividing the industry compulsorily into a few big combinations, or one single economic unit, under State control by and through the said national board of cotton control?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. W. R. Smith): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on the 2nd December to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), of which I am sending him a copy.
  Mr. WISE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, exactly eight months ago, the Cotton Committee, of which two Members of the Cabinet were members, reported that:
  "The crisis is urgent and immediate action is imperative,"
  and, further, went on to say that, unless the trade took action immediately, the Government should itself forthwith come to Parliament and lay proposals before this House for action by the Government; and may I ask when the Government propose to carry that recommendation into effect?
  Mr. SMITH: I think that my hon. Friend had better see the answer to which I have referred, which, I think, still explains the present position.
  1812
  the expenditure per scholar of the local education authorities in question on the secondary schools maintained by them was as follows:

  GOAL INDUSTRY (MINING ROYALTIES).
  Marquess of HARTINGTONasked the Secretary for Mines when he proposes to introduce the Bill promised in 1929 to acquire mining royalties for the nation?
  The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Shinwell): I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer I gave yesterday to a similar question by the right hon. Member for Woolwich West (Sir K. Wood).
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in 1929 the Prime Minister promised that this Bill should be introduced forthwith; and can he interpret to the House the meaning of the word "forthwith"
  Mr. SHINWELL: I am well aware of the circumstances of 1929, and I am not unfamiliar with the circumstances now.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: Can the hon. Gentleman answer my question?
  Major the Marquess of TITCHFIELD: Is this another broken pledge?

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (RAILWAY VOUCHERS).
  Captain CROOKSHANKasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what reply he has made to representations sent to him from the railway companies regarding the use of railway vouchers by Members of this House?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): I have not received any representations from the railway companies on this matter.
  Captain CROOKSHANK: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any other Member of the Government has?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: If I am to ask all round the Government, perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will put a question on the Paper.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he proposes to keep the House late to-night, in the event of the Motion which stands in his name on the Order Paper being carried?
The PRIME MINISTER: It is impossible to say at the moment, but I should be very glad if in the course of the day
some sort of arrangement might be come to—[An HON. MEMBER: "No!"]. I say I should be very glad if some arrangement could be come to; but we must get on with the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill. If possible, we would like to conclude by the end of to-morrow's sitting.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 122.

Division No. 103.]

AYES.

[3.35 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

Logan, David Gilbert

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Longbottom, A. W.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

Longden, F.

Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

Gill, T. H.

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbre')

Gillett, George M.

Lunn, William

Alpass, J. H.

Glassey, A. E.

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Ammon, Charles George

Gossling, A. G.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Arnott, John

Gould, F.

McElwee, A.

Aske, Sir Robert

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

McEntee, V. L.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Gray, Milner

McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

Ayles, Walter

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

McKinlay, A.

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Grundy, Thomas W.

MacLaren, Andrew

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Barr, James

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Batey, Joseph

Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

McShane, John James

Bellamy, Albert

Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

Mansfield, W.

Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

Hamilton, Sir A. (Orkney & Zetland)

March, S.

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Hardie, George D.

Marcus, M.

Benson, G.

Harris, Percy A.

Markham, S. F.

Blindell, James

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Marley, J.

Bowen, J. W.

Haycock, A. W.

Mathers, George

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hayes, John Henry

Matters, L. W.

Broad, Francis Aifred

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Maxton, James

Breckway, A. Fenner

Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

Melville, Sir James

Bromley, J.

Herrlotts, J.

Messer, Fred

Brooke, W.

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Millar, J. D.

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Hoffman, P. C.

Mills, J. E.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Hopkin, Daniel

Milner, Major J.

Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

Hore-Belisha, Lesile

Montague, Frederick

Buchanan, G.

Horrabin, J. F.

Morley, Raiph

Burqess, F. G.

Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

Morris, Rhys Hopkins

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

Hunter, Dr. Joseph

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Cape, Thomas

Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

Carter, W (St. Pancras, S.W.)

Isaacs. George

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Charleson, H. C.

Jenkins, Sir William

Mort, D. L.

Chater, Daniel

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Clarke, J. S.

Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

Muff, G.

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Murnin, Hugh

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Naylor, T. E.

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

Compton, Joseph

Kelly, W. T.

Oldfield, J. R.

Cowan, D. M.

Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

Daggar, George

Kinley, J.

Palin, John Henry

Dallas, George

Knight, Holford

Paling, Wilfrid

Dalton, Hugh

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

Perry, S. F.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lang, Gordon

Peters, Dr. Sidney John

Day, Harry

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Dukes, C.

Lathan, G.

Phillips, Dr. Marlon

Ede, James Chuter

Law, Albert (Bolton)

Picton-Turbervill, Edith

Edmunds, J. E.

Law, A. (Rossendale)

Pole, Major D. G.

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

Potts, John S.

Elmley, Viscount

Lawson, John James

Pybus, Percy John

Foot, Isaac

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Forgan, Dr. Robert

Leach, W.

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Freeman, Peter

Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

Rathbone, Eleanor

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Raynes, W. R.

Gardner, J. P. (Hammerismith, N.)

Lees, J.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Walker, J.

Ritson, J.

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Wallace, H. W.

Romeril, H. G.

Smith, Rennie (penistone)

Watkins, F. C.

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Rowson, Guy

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Snell, Harry

Wellock, Wilfred

Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Sanders, W. S.

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

West, F. R.

Sandham, E.

Stamford, Thomas W.

Westwood, Joseph

Sawyer, G. F.

Stephen, Campbell

White, H. G.

Scott, James

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Scrymgeour, E.

Strauss, G. R.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Sullivan, J.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Sutton, J. E.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Shield, George William

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Wilson, J. (Oldham)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Shillaker, J. F.

Thurtle, Ernest

Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

Shinwell, E.

Tinker, John Joseph

Wise, E. F.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Tools, Joseph

Simmons, C. J.

Townend, A. E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Mr. Allen Parkinson and

Sitch, Charles H.

Viant, S. P.

Mr. Charles Edwards.

Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

Walkden, A. G.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Faile, Sir Bertram G.

Peake, Capt. Osbert

Albery, Irving James

Ferguson, Sir John

Penny, Sir George

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Ashiey, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

Ramsbotham, H.

Astor, Viscountess

Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Ballour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Gower, Sir Robert

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Salmon, Major I.

Betterton, Sir Henry B.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Savery, S. S.

Boyce, Leslie

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Brass, Captain Sir William

Hanbury, C.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

Briscoe, Richard George

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Hartington, Marquess of

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Smithers, Waldron

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Butler, R. A.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Campbell, E. T.

Hurd, Percy A.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

Castle Stewart, Earl of

Iveagh, Countess of

Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Lewis, Oswald (Coichester)

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Train, J.

Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Chapman, Sir S.

Lockwood, Captain J. H.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Christie, J. A.

McConnell, Sir Joseph

Wayland, Sir William A.

Clydesdale, Marquess of

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Wells, Sydney R.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Maitland, A. (Kent. Faversham)

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Cranhorne, Viscount

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Margesson, Captain H. D.

Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Cunilffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Womersley, W. J.

Davies, Maj. Ceo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

Eden, Captain Anthony

Muirhead, A. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Edmondson, Major A. j.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)

Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.

Elliot, Major Walter, E.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Erskine, Lord (Somerset.Weston-s.-M.)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

SENTENCE OF DEATH (EXPECTANT MOTHERS).
Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the passing of the sentence of death upon expectant mothers; and for other purposes connected therewith."
I ask hon. Members to note carefully that the Bill does not provide for the
1816
expectant mother evading the sentence which she would otherwise be called upon to endure. It deals with a sentence which nowadays has become a tragic and painful farce. It is unnecessary to bring in a law to prohibit the execution of the expectant mother, because that law already exists. When a woman who has been convicted of murder is found to be with child, the court is

1817
bound to decree a stay of execution. It is true that the reprieve is for a short while only, until the birth of the child, but so repugnant is it to all feelings of decency and humanity that the death sentence should hang over the woman until the birth of her child, and that then she should be executed, that in modern practice the temporary reprieve is always followed by a final reprieve by the Crown and the punishment becomes one of penal servitude. Who, then, can favour the passing of the death sentence when by law it cannot be put into effect for several months and by custom it is never put into effect at all. After a. conviction for murder, no matter how extenuating the circumstances, how strong the recommendation to mercy may be, the judge has no option but to pronounce sentence of death. It is only after the sentence of death has been pronounced that the woman has an opportunity of saying that she is an expectant mother. In that case, a jury of matrons is empanelled and a doctor's services are secured, and, if it be correct, the court must grant a reprieve, which becomes a final reprieve, and not for 70 years has the sentence of the court been put into execution.
This Bill, which is a very simple one, and which purposely is not complicated with other necessary reforms, provides that a woman shall be given the opportunity of stating that she is an expectant mother before the death sentence, and, in the event of that statement being correct, the death sentence shall not be pronounced upon her at all. A tragic incident recently occurred which has drawn public attention to the unsatisfactory state of the law. A very poor woman, who was an expectant mother, made heroic efforts to provide food and shelter for her babe nine months old. She tried to secure this in every available quarter without success and finally killed her child by gas poisoning. I have been told on very high authority that nearly always, when a mother takes the life of her own child, it is only after she has been driven to desperation by desertion and destitution and despair. In the case to which I have referred it was well known all through the trial that the woman was an expectant mother; nevertheless, the death sentence was pro
1818
nounced upon her. Everyone knows what the scene in court is like on such an occasion, the breathless waiting for the jury to return, the verdict, the deathly silence, the putting on of the black cap, the terrible concentration of the whole court on the words that are about to be uttered, and then the sentence:
"that you be hanged by the neck until you be dead."
That sentence, being pronounced after a long trial in which life is in the balance, has had the effect of causing the complete collapse even of strong men and women. What then can be the effect upon a woman who not only is about to give birth to a child but who in nearly every case has had a long period of poverty, anxiety, hunger and malnutrition I Not only have we to think of the woman upon whom the shock is severe but we have to think of the unborn but living child upon whom the shock may well be lifelong in its disastrous effect. The present law was formulated when pre-natal science was in its infancy, if indeed it existed at all. Reformers have long wished for a change in the law. Judges and lawyers for many years have regarded this duty of theirs with disfavour. The time has come when the law can and should be altered. Indeed, it is on record that one learned and benevolent judge so disliked the duty he had to perform that he begged the woman not to listen to a word which he had to say, and he mumbled the sentence in such a way that even the court could not hear a word which came from his lips.
Parliament and lawyers love a precedent. We have a precedent for this Bill near at hand. In Scotland for upwards of 150 years the death sentence has not been passed upon an expectant mother. Ever since 1765 when they passed the law, even when the administration of the Criminal Law in Scotland, in the 18th century, was looked upon as harsh and barbarous, Scotland has not tolerated what England tolerates to-day. If support is given to this Bill in all parts of the House, I hope and believe, indeed, I not only hope, I not only believe, but I am confident that the Government will give facilities this Session to pass it through all its stages and put it on to the Statute Book of England.
Question put, and agreed to.

1819
Bill ordered to be brought in by Miss Picton-Turbervill, Mr. McEntee, Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy, Mr. Kirkwood, Dr. Phillips, Dr. Hastings, Dr. Morris-Jones, Viscount Elmley, Major Sir John Birchall, Sir Nicholas Grattan-Doyle, Mr. Ramsbothnm, and Commander Bellairs.

SENTENCE OF DEATH (EXPECTANT MOTHERS) BILL,
"to prohibit the passing of the sentence of death upon expectant mothers; and for other purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 89.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  AGRICULTURAL LAND (UTILISATION) BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [29th January] on Consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the, Standing Committee).
  AGRICULTURAL LAND (UTILISATION) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Establishment of Agricul tural Land Corporation.)
    Amendment proposed: In page 2, line 5, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that the affairs of the corporation as regards Scotland shall be administered, controlled, and managed by a sub-committee of the board, which shall hold its meetings in Scotland, and such subcommittee shall have the right to co-opt additional members to the extent of one-third of its number."—[Mr. R. W. Smith.]
    Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    Amendment negatived.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): I beg to move, in page 2, line 14, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(c) provide for the administration and management of the operations of the corporation in Scotland by means of a committee of the directors acting in consultation with such number of persons having practical experience of agriculture in Scotland as may be specified in the order."
    This Amendment has been put down by the Government after the discussion which took place on the last occasion when this Bill was before the House. I understood from what was stated on that occasion that such an Amendment would meet with the approval of the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) and those associated with him in moving the Amendment which immediately preceded this one, and I do not think there is any need for me to elaborate the matter, which was fully discussed on the last occasion.
    Major ELLIOT: I think that we shall be more than glad to facilitate the insertion of these words. It is true that they do not in every way fulfil the Amendment which we had upon the Paper, in that the Amendment proposed that the sub-committee should hold its meetings in Scotland. No doubt it will
    1838
    be possible for the Secretary of State to make some arrangements, or to give some assurance, when any Scottish business has to be considered, so that it may be possible for the sub-committee to meet in Scotland. It would save expense. I see that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) has an Amendment upon the Paper about the members giving their services gratis. I do not know whether that Amendment will be called, but, obviously, as travelling expenses are heavy, if the committee could meet in Edinburgh it would much reduce expenses in the way of people coming over to consult with the sub-committee. I think it will be possible for the Secretary of State to give that assurance, and, if so, I am sure it will much facilitate the discussion on the Amendment, because, in that case, practically speaking, the Amendment which the Minister has upon the Paper would meet the case which my hon. Friend the Member for Central Aberdeenshire (Mr. R. W. Smith) put in the course of what was a very short discussion upon the last time that this matter was before the House.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Before the Secretary of State replies to my hon. and gallant Friend I should like to ask him a question upon a point which, I think, should be cleared up. The corporation is to be managed by a board of directors, and in the Amendment it is sought to hand over certain duties of that board of directors to certain directors, with certain co-opted members, when dealing with large-scale farming in Scotland. Is it perfectly clear that the directors as a whole shall control the whole operations and that only the administration shad be left to the Scottish committee? I want this matter to be made clear. I think that it must be so because the words "administration and management" are introduced in the Amendment, whereas in the. Bill the word "controlled" is also inserted.
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addison) indicated assent.
    Colonel ASHLEY: If, as I gather from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that is so, I have nothing more to say.
    4.0 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I realise that the Government are going to meet

    1839
    the wishes of the Scottish Members in this matter, but, after all, there is a chance that a certain amount of expense may be put upon England. If Scotland is to have a separate committee, and if these people are to be paid and have travelling allowances, the money will be paid by the English taxpayers as well as the Scottish, though their services will be available only for Scotland. England is not to have one of these committees, and, therefore, Scotland will be getting some money out of England for nothing. I should very much like some assurance from the Secretary of State for Scotland that the charges will fall upon Scotland. We English Members realise that when Scottish Members get together about Scottish matters, they are unanimous and get what they want, but when they talk about English matters, they act according to their political complexions. I think that it is well worth while for English Members to make a stand for economy where the English taxpayers' money is in question.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: It is because Scottish Members urge the claims of their own country in season and out of season that they get as much as they do. I wish to make a strong protest at the way in which England is being treated. I see no reason why Scotland should be given special treatment over this country. If Scotland is to have a special committee, why should not the West-country? Why should we be treated differently?
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: I want to say a word in support of the argument of my hon. and gallant Friend. If Scotland is to have its special committee, why should not really important agricultural centres like Devon, and the West-country generally, have one? Of course, I quite realise that the weak agriculture of Scotland has to be bolstered up in some way or other, which is the reason for this Amendment. Because this is a gift horse, I will not look it in the mouth too closely, and, therefore, I put two points only. We ought to be told what is to be the number of persons on the proposed committee, and we ought to have some clear definition as to what is to be the extra cost under the Bill of a separate committee of this kind. The
    1840
    House ought to be informed on these two points from a purely financial point of view. Every Member will realise that it is the primary duty of the House of Commons to examine these appointments from the point of view of the taxpayers as a whole. Eventually the numbers of these people will come out in an order. I do not suggest that it is possible to act otherwise than by an order in this particular case, but, quite frankly, legislation which entails afterwards a considerable number of orders is against the best interests of the House of Commons and the people as a whole. I protest against the time of the House being taken up, and a series of orders afterwards being necessary because the Government of the day have not been capable, or have not been able to make their legislation clear and definite. I make this protest, and ask that the House may be informed, before accepting this Amendment, of the approximate cost and the number of persons who will form the committee.
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: By leave of the House, I will reply very briefly to some of the points put to me. With regard to the question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), in the event of it being decided by the directors of the corporation that large-scale farming will be undertaken in Scotland, the chances are that some of the directors on this particular committee with which the Amendment deals will require to go to Scotland. Therefore, there will be no difficulty in their having meetings with the persons who may be appointed to consult with them. The hon. and gallant Member may take my word for it that there is very little difficulty about the matter. I can give him my assurance that the point he has put will be kept in mind. With regard to the point raised by the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley), of course the directors will control the operations, and will have the final word, so far as the corporation is concerned, both in Scotland and in England.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Will the committee or sub-committee report to the directors?
    Mr. ADAMSON: As a matter of course, the sub-committee will report to the directors. With regard to the question

    1841
    of expenditure, any expenses involved will be met out of the funds of the corporation. I expect that those expenses will simply concern travelling and sustenance, whatever may be allowed for that.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Is it not clear that the expenses of the Scottish committee are to be paid for by English taxpayers?
    Mr. ADAMSON: On that particular point, there is no doubt that Scotland pays its share of all taxes, and there is very little doubt that, in the spending of the money, Scotland does not get its share. I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member need have any fear that in this matter that will be mitigated any more than in any other.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Colonel ASHLEY: I beg to move, in page 2, line 17, to leave out the word "let."
    Although I admit that the extent of the evil will not be very large, this Amendment to leave out the word "let" raises a principle of some importance. In Sub-section (1) large-scale farming is handed over by order to the corporation and, in Sub-section (2),
    "An order made by the Minister and Secretary of State under the last foregoing sub-section, shall"—
    And then, in paragraph (c),
    "empower the corporation to purchase or take on lease land by agreement, and, subject to any conditions specified in the order, to sell, let or exchange for any purpose any land vested in the corporation."
    I admit it is common sense that if the corporation are to carry on this large-scale farming—I think quite unnecessarily—but if that is admitted and agreed to by the House, it is quite obvious that they must be able to purchase or take on lease land by agreement, and it may well happen that, having bought the land, they will find that the whole of the land they have purchased is not needed. Some of it may turn out to be unsuitable, and, therefore, it is quite right that they should be given the power to sell off land they do not want. But why should the corporation be empowered to let land? If they have got more land than they want, let them get rid of it as soon as possible by selling it. The whole object of the corporation in spending large sums
    1842
    of public money is that the corporation may have land in order to carry on large-scale farming, but money should not be given, in my opinion, in order that they may acquire land, nationalise it to a certain extent, and then proceed to let it, not for the purpose of large-scale farming, but to bring money into the State.
    It seems perfectly obvious that that is the cloven hoof of Socialism. By a back door it is sought to increase the amount of land owned by the State. That may be good or bad. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite are perfectly entitled to consider that all English land should be owned by the State. I notice that now that English farming does not pay, and trade is in a bad way, there is not so much demand for nationalising the land as there used to be, just as there is not so much demand for nationalising the railways. But by a back door, to enable an unscrupulous Socialist Government, backed by a subservient Treasury, to buy much more land than is needed for large-scale farming, to keep what they want for that purpose, and then to let the rest, is absolutely wrong. If the Government wish to nationalise the land, let them bring in a Bill for it, and we shall know where we are. What possible argument can be advanced for retaining the word "let." The Chancellor of the Duchy, in Committee upstairs—I hope I am not doing him any injustice—did not give, I think, any reason why it was necessary to retain the word "let," and a subservient majority of his own supporters voted for the retention of the word. I am quite willing to be convinced by the Minister, if he can prove to me that it is necessary for the purposes of the Bill, and to reconsider my view as to the necessity of this word, but I cannot conceive it to be necessary, and, therefore, I beg to move the Amendment.
    The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. Attlee): We all know that the right hon. and gallant Member has got cloven-hooves in his mind just now, but I think it has rather led him astray here. This is not a Bill for nationalising land, and this particular provision is one that, obviously, is needed for ordinary estate management. Supposing a site is bought, there may be cottages on it. Should not the corpora-

    1843
    tion have power to let those cottages to the existing tenants?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Am I to understand that there will be no labourers needed on these large-scale farms, and that all the labourers will be taken away? Surely in farming land you want cottages for your agricultural labourers? This means letting them have land for no purpose.
    Mr. ATTLEE: That is not so. If you are dealing with a large estate you do not want to be absolutely tied down at any moment either to use the land acquired or to sell it straight away. You might let it for a time. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman says that I did not give any reason upstairs for the retention of the word "let." I think I did, and it is a very obvious reason. Except for the right hon. Gentleman's own fantastic idea on the subject, there can be no reason why the word should not be in.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think the reply of the Chancellor of the Duchy is inadequate. There are two very good and obvious reasons why it is undesirable that this corporation in addition to acquiring and holding land for the purpose of experiment should not buy additional land and then let it off to other farmers. The first major reason is, that the whole value of this experiment in bonanza farming is that it shall be an exact model which other people are to be able to follow. Therefore, it must be based on the most careful and scientific statistical data. It is impossible to get that scientific data unless the whole of the land paid for and acquired, and the cost of equipping and working that land, is clearly included in the various statements of account. If the corporation has land which it lets off to tenants of its own, over and above the land on which it is carrying out this important statistical and, to judge from the speech of the Minister of Agriculture, interesting, novel and scientific experiment in mechanised farming, the whole of the accounts will be vitiated and the character of the corporation will be changed. With £1,000,000 at its disposal the corporation will be able to nationalise much land. This will be a statistical experiment by the State in bonanza farm-
    1844
    ing, plus income from the rent of land which it has acquired and let off to ordinary common folk. The second reason why we on this side of the House always oppose the efforts of the Minister of Agriculture or of any Department, especially a central Government Department, even more than a local authority, acquiring land for letting purposes, is because we hold, in common with the whole agricultural community, especially the agricultural community which has ever experienced it, that the State, and particularly Whitehall, is the worst agricultural landlord in the world.
    Mr. BEN RILEY: On Crown lands?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Yes. If you ask the farmers on Crown lands they tell you that when they go to the agent he is bound by Treasury regulations. He is given a minimum of latitude this way and the other. He is compelled to do this, that and the other because of Treasury regulations and because it is a Government Department that has control. The ordinary landlord and the ordinary agent are not so bound. They judge by common sense and the facts of the time and are not restricted by regulations. Everyone knows that in every country where nationalisation of land has been attempted in this form it has been the curse of the State as a landlord that there are regulations of this kind, which are inevitable under State control. Anyone who has served in the Army or in a State Department knows of the inevitable growth of regulations, red tape, returns, and what they mean. That inevitably happens when the State as a State, and especially a great central Government Department, has control; where access to the Minister is rare and difficult, and where there is no personal contact except through a man sitting at a desk in the office of the Department of Woods and Forests, or in the office of the Commissioner of Crown Lands. Everybody knows that it is perfectly hopeless, and that there is no progress for agriculture and no happiness for the tenant or anybody else under such conditions.
    On general principles we object very strongly to the acquisition of agricultural land for the purpose of letting it to other people over above what is required for the purpose of this experiment. We think that it is undesirable in the in-

    1845
    terests of the statistical experiment itself that land over and above what is actually required for the personal supervision and work of this new State Corporation, should be acquired. Therefore, we intend to press this matter to a Division.
    Mr. MacLAREN: I intervene because I have listened carefully to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), and I claim that no argument that he has advanced is relevant to the matter in hand. I might say, in passing, that I am against these bonanza schemes. The right hon. Gentleman says that there will be a mixing of the accounts and that there might be some mismanagement on the side of the bonanza farming enterprise, which might be made up by revenue from rents drawn from land that has been let. That is surely a question of book-keeping and apportioning the income under the proper heading. That is not relevant to the question whether the corporation, as such, should have power to let land. His next argument was that it was the historic prejudice of the Conservative party against corporations beinc, landowners that leads them to oppose the giving of powers to the corporation to let land. He also advanced the argument that, very often, the State or a corporation where they own land may let it fall into desuetude, through bad management or otherwise. If that is to be advanced as an argument against the State or a corporation letting land, it applies equally to many private landowners in this country. Therefore, the argument is not relevant to the issue now before us.
    If we substitute for the word "Corporation" the letter "X," and say that "X" is to hold land. If "X" is holding land, whether "X" be a corporation or a private individual, where is the reason in saying that a person who holds land shall not be empowered to let land. He may have power to sell it, or transfer it, or manage it. What is the argument against his having the power to let the land?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The answer is simply this, that the corporation are empowered to acquire land for one specific purpose, namely, large-scale farming, and they are not to have land for any other purpose.
    Mr. MacLAREN: That is more relevant to the point under discussion than the arguments of the right hon. Member for Stafford, but I still hold that if the corporation have a large area of land for experimental farming, they should not be prohibited from letting land in the area under their control. There might be a farm in the market and they could get a large area of land for a song. If I am to believe the statements of hon. and right hon. Members opposite that agricultural land is of very little value in this country to-day, then the corporation might come in for a good bargain and get a large area of land under their control, but if you are going to cut it up into pieces and say that one piece shall be used for experimental farming purposes and, perhaps, right in the centre of the land you are going to cut out a slice and say that this shall not be under the jurisdiction of the corporation, because they have no power to let land, you might be upsetting the management which is so essential to the successful carrying through of the bonanza scheme.
    I would rather deal with the arguments of the right hon. Member for Stafford, because he let the cat out of the bag when he said that it is the inherent prejudice of the Conservative party—I say this advisedly, because it has not been advanced on a logical basis—that no corporation, no corporate body shall have power to let land, that has led to their action to-day. If a private landowner can do what is proposed, I can see no reason that can be advanced to prohibit the corporation from having the same power. Therefore, while I am not at all enthusiastic about the bonanza scheme, I am trying to meet the logical point of view involved in the discussion of the Amendment.
    Major GEORGE DAVIES: When I saw this small Amendment on the Order Paper and noted its implications, I thought that sooner or later the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) would not be able to refrain from taking-part in the discussion. He has some satisfaction in thinking that he has shattered some of the arguments put forward by my right hon. Friend, but there is one serious flaw in his argument, and that is, that so much hinges on the personality of Mr. "X." Mr. "X" is brought out in previous parts of this Clause. The statement of the Chancellor

    1847
    of the Duchy was as unsatisfactory as it was in Committee upstairs. He rode off the really big issue that is involved in this apparently simple Amendment. This is not a question of letting a cottage here or an orchard there, or of letting a spot that is left in the middle of the land. Under Subsection (1) this corporation is set up for the development of such land as may be vested in the corporation, and paragraph (c) deals with the land vested in the corporation and purports to give them power to let land. The whole point at issue is this, that we object, and the hon. Member for Burslem somewhat shares our objection, that the money of the general taxpayer, the money of the nation as a whole, is being spent for this purpose, to wit, large scale farming operations. That has, however, been agreed upon. The principle that has been decided is that, under certain conditions and for certain reasons only, it is justifiable for the State to undertake these operations and to try and carry out an experiment which the Minister of Agriculture, with his usually optimistic nature, thinks is going to be a useful success.
    The corporation is to carry out this experiment in order to show the rest of the farmers that this type of mechanised, big-scale farming is going to be a success. The excuse for our voting this money is limited by the object for which it is to be expended. That object is the carrying out by the Government of an experiment which is to show the rest of us whether it is going to be a success or not. For the carrying out of that experiment, the corporation is to be allowed to acquire land, which is to be vested in the corporation, in order to carry out the operation of large-scale farming. The moment they let it they are breaking the terms of the contract entered into with the House of Commons and the country to allow them money for acquiring land for this purpose. The moment they let it they are breaking that contract and getting in private individuals, private enterprise, to carry out this experiment; they are utilising the land for a purpose other than that for which they asked the House to grant money under this Bill. I say that a large issue of national importance is involved.
    Mr. MacLAREN: Suppose you had an enterprise of this kind and the land was not immediately required for the develop-
    1848
    ment of large-scale farming and the corporation wished to hold the land in reserve, does the hon. and gallant Member suggest that in those circumstances we should not allow the corporation to have the power to let?
    Major DAVIES: I maintain that the corporation, which we have been assured hour after hour is going to consist of the most able people conceivable will give the closest attention to this matter before they act, and when they do act will know they need the land they are going to acquire for the purpose of this experiment, and for no other purpose. It is true that if the word "let" is struck out of the Bill it will entail a certain handicap in the trivial directions indicated by the Chancellor of the Duchy and which have been commented upon by the hon. Member for Burslem as being the point at issue. It is not the point at issue. We on this side of the House have views on these matters diametrically opposite those of hon. Members opposite, and while we may be reluctant to see the State come in and carry out an experiment, because it may be advantageous to the community, we are decidedly opposed to the acquisition of land with power to let it out. That is an object which was never intended by the promoters of this Bill, at any rate in the language of the Bill, although it may have been at the back of their minds, and because we know it is at the back of their minds we are opposed to it. I am quite prepared to meet a well-thought-out Clause which would not unnecessarily hamper the administration, this is going to give the Government powers through this corporation, which is merely a department of the Government, to acquire great areas of land not to use but to let it out to other people. To that we object.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: The hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren), usually so acute and up-to-date, has really failed to apprehend the reasons for our objection to the inclusion of this word in the Clause. Our point of view has been ably explained by the hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies), but there is one word in addition which I should like to say. The hon. Member for Burslem said that there was no need to be afraid of the financial results of the operations of this corporation being confused with those in land,

    1849
    because it is a mere matter of accountancy. We reach the question of accounts later in the Bill and, therefore, I will not deal with that matter at the moment, but the Minister of Agriculture so far has been very unwilling to undertake to keep the accounts in any form which will be at all satisfactory to those who are anxious to make sure that there shall be no possibility of confusion, and that the accounts of this corporation shall be presented to us in such a form that we shall be able to see what is the actual farming loss, as we believe, or the actual farming profit, which the Minister of Agriculture optimistically supposes will be the case. It is a question of considerable importance. The House is being asked to vote a large sum of the taxpayers' money to an experiment in farming, to a particular kind of agricultural research, and the last thing we should be asked to do is to devote money to what may develop into a gamble in real estate. It is perfectly open to the Government to acquire land under favourable conditions, possibly at a cheap price in bad times, and then let is out at considerable profit. That is a reasonable possibility if the word "let" remains in, and we feel that it, should be omitted. I hope that the question will be taken to a Division.
    Captain CAZALET: Hon. Members on this side of the House would be satisfied if we had an assurance that the word "let" is included merely for the purpose of the routine business of running an estate. I am somewhat fogged by these bonanza schemes, and I hope that at some later stage we shall be told exactly what the word means. The whole object, as I understand it, is that the corporation shall buy a large area of land in order to show that it can make the whole of that area pay as a farming unit, and the insertion of the word "let" may mean that it will take out the "eyes" of that area and then come to the House of Commons and say, "Look how marvellously we have farmed this large area of land." We shall have to hunt into the details of the accounts to find that all the bad patches and fields have been let out and not accounted for in the accounts presented to us. That is a genuine point, and I should be satisfied if we had a more definite assurance from the Government that the word
    1850
    "let" is put in merely for the routine purpose of running the estate.
    Colonel ASHLEY: I do not want to be unreasonable. I quite appreciate that the corporation may buy a few acres more than they want to use immediately, and they may buy a cottage or two more than they immediately want. If the Minister of Agriculture will bring in an Amendment to confine the letting of land to such things, I shall be quite satisfied. Nothing that the Chancellor of the Duchy has said has allayed our apprehensions that the word "let" can, and could, and easily might be, used for a gamble in land, and I should like the Minister of Agriculture to tell us whether he is prepared to move an Amendment to prevent any gamble in land. If so, I should not object, to it.
    Dr. ADDISON: I feel glad that the course of the Debate has convinced the right hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Colonel Ashley) of the necessity for the insertion of this word. Every authority empowered by Parliament to acquire land has this power, because it necessarily follows that here and there there are pieces of land which they must be able to let. You find it in every Act of Parliament, and I have no doubt that the right hon. and gallant Member when he was a member of the Conservative Government gave it his blessing. As to those mythical people with whom the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has been consorting lately, I can take no responsibility for the misapprehensions which these inhabitants of the higher regions have inspired in him. As far as this Amendment is concerned, this humdrum small affair, it is essentially part of the management of the business. They would not be able to buy land and let it for the purposes of speculation. If hon. Members will look at the words of the Clause they will see:
    "subject to such modifications as may he specified in the order"
    It must be in accordance with the purposes of the corporation. We are not setting up a gambling corporation: that view is the result of consorting with those queer people with whom the right hon. Member for Stafford has been in touch lately. This is quite an everyday power and I hope hon. Members opposite will agree with that and that we may be

    1851
    able to dispose of the matter without further delay.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND: I think hon. Members on this side have been extremely reasonable. We are prepared to accept any words which will insure that the power of letting shall be confined to the purposes for which the land was ostensibly acquired. I cannot think of a more reasonable request. Without desiring to controvert what the Minister of Agriculture has said, I must point out that there is really no analogy between a local authority acquiring land and a corporation of this kind acquiring land. The main duties of a local authority are of a very different nature to this. The holding of land is only one small incidental part of its functions, but the holding of land here is the main purpose and essence of the being of this corporation. It is perfectly illogical to use the one as an analogy for the other. The Minister of Agriculture has said that the words:
    "subject to such modifications as may be specified in the order"
    are a sufficient guarantee. I should have thought that recent events in this House have shown how extremely loose certain definitions may be. I do not know what the primary purpose of the Order may be, or what the meaning of this loose phraseology may be. We appreciate the point made by the Chancellor of the Duchy—namely, that there are certain subsidiary or ancillary purposes for which the corporation might wish to let land. I have come across a number of such cases, but that is no reason at all against this Amendment. The Clause as it is covers far too wide a range of powers, and it was obviously the duty of the Opposition to bring forward this Amendment pointing out that the Clause was far too wide.
    It is true, as the Chancellor of the Duchy has said, that there are certain objects for which power should be given to a corporation like this. It may want to let certain buildings to be occupied by its own employés, And it should have power to let for this purpose. Similarly, granted that the principle of the corporation is accepted and that the corporation is to carry out large-scale farming, it is clear that in certain cases it will have to
    1852
    acquire quite a large Acreage of ground. It may be that it cannot at once utilise the whole of that large acreage, but that for a comparatively short period it may want to let some of it to be used by its former owner until it can be brought into the general scheme of large-scale farming. I have one case of that kind in my mind at the present time. A large Acreage may be acquired, but the whole of it may not be utilised at once, though it will undoubtedly be brought in comparatively quickly as circumstances warrant. That is a case where for a temporary purpose it may be right to let the land. For purposes which are definitely ancillary to the main object of the corporation it may be right to give a limited power of letting.
    On the other hand, I am sure that the Minister and the Chancellor of the Duchy recognise that we do not want to give a power which, whether we wish it or not, may quite clearly be used for objects entirely different from and beyond what are the ostensible purposes of this large-scale farming scheme. It is quite possible to frame an Amendment which would give power to the corporation to let land for the subsidiary or ancillary purposes, and at the same time circumscribe the letting so that it should not be carried beyond the purposes contemplated in the scheme. I have drafted an Amendment roughly in this form:
    "Provided that if any land so acquired by the corporation is let on lease, such letting, except in the case of cottages let for human habitation, shall not continue for a longer period than four years from the date of acquisition, and the land so let shall thereafter be sold, unless taken back into direct occupation by the corporation."
    I think that that Amendment entirely carries out the legitimate object in view. From practical experience I can say that four years is ample time. In my Amendment I have exempted cottages let for human habitation. For any normal purposes of agriculture it is hardly conceivable that a corporation of this kind would not, within a period of four years, have brought under its operations all the land that ultimately it would require to bring into the scheme of large-scale farming. I hope that the Minister will accept my draft Amendment if the Amendment before the House is not pressed.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The Minister said that the Amendment was of a trivial character. When he said that he clearly did one of two things: Either he was under-rating the purpose of the Bill, in which case he is prophesying that the Bill will not be of very much value, or else he did not understand what was the purpose of the Amendment. I do not wish in any way to tie the corporation down so that it is not able to let a cottage. I should have thought that under the Bill it would have been able to let a cottage to any workers on the property or to any who are working in connection with the property, even if this word "let" were omitted. What I am concerned about is lest there should be abuse of the power given by this word, and lest the corporation should merely collect money and buy land and then let great plots of that land to various people for various purposes. We know that the Minister is not very well acquainted with agricultural things. I am not sure whether, with the word "let" included, he would know whether it was being used for a golf course or a sheep run. I am not sure that he would have sufficient knowledge to know these things. Frankly, we ought not to have in the Bill a word that permits a possibility of that kind.
    Let me put a further point which has not so far been mentioned. It would be possible for the Minister to take a large area of land, to put it down under grass and merely to sub-let it to certain people for grazing purposes. That is not the purpose for which the Minister is professedly coming here. The period of four years, which has been mentioned in the draft Amendment suggested by my right hon. Friend, is too long. The suggested Amendment would not be water-tight for the purposes of this House. I am sorry to disagree with my right hon. Friend. I do not pretend to be anything of a lawyer, but, knowing the Minister of Agriculture, and knowing some of his wiles on certain lines, I can conceive his letting land for four years, then taking it into occupation for a few months and re-letting it. The best thing to do is to cut out the word "let" altogether and to rely on the procedure provided in the rest of the Bill. The Minister said that this word was in many previous Acts. Far be it from me
    1854
    to say that his predecessors were not the perfect angels which he is always telling us that they were, but I am not certain that they were right in every case. But that is not the point here. Previous Acts have not dealt with a corporation of this kind; they have dealt with local authorities or other bodies of the kind. This Bill deals with a new corporation. We do not know how it is going to act, and over it the House of Commons has very little control. It is, therefore, essential that we should vote for the Amendment. I hope that some Liberals, who are naturally anti-Socialist in their origin and outlook, will on this occasion join with the Conservative party in trying to eliminate from this part of the Bill a singularly objectionable word.
    Dr. ADDISON: I have read, two or three times, the Amendment suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley), and I can see at least half-a-dozen difficulties which it would present—difficulties which might give rise to prolonged and repeated debates. Our intention is quite sincere. I am perfectly willing to consider in a friendly way anything which makes it clear, but the suggested Amendment would be quite impossible. The Debate has been on a very narrow point. I suggest that it has gone on long enough and I would like to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
    Viscount WOLMER: The subject calls for a little more consideration from the Minister. He says that he has half-a-dozen reasons against the suggested Amendment, but he does not condescend to mention one of them. This subject is one to which we attach a great deal of importance. Not only is the whole of this land being provided by the State at the public expense, but it is land which will be acquired compulsorily by the Minister.
    Dr. ADDISON: No, read the Subsection.
    5.0 p.m.
    Viscount WOLMER: By Sub-section (5) of the Clause the Minister is empowered to acquire this land compulsorily. He then hands it over to the corporation, ostensibly for farming, or not even for that, and then the corporation can let

    1855
    or exchange for any purpose, any land vested in the corporation. Therefore, it is perfectly possible under the Bill as it stands for a Socialist Government to acquire land compulsorily and to hand it over to this corporation and the corporation could then let the land. In other words, you have here the entire machinery for the nationalisation of the land.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON indicated dissent.
    Viscount WOLMER: It is no use for the right hon. Gentleman to shake his head. That is what the Bill says. We are perfectly willing to credit him with sincerity when he says that that is not what he intends and all we ask is that he should put words into the Bill which will carry out what he says is his intention. The form of words which has been proposed by my right hon. Friend seems to meet the case. The corporation could go on letting cottages to its labourers without any restriction whatever, and, furthermore, our Amendments propose that the corporation should be given four years in which to make up its mind whether it wanted to farm any land or not. That surely is a long enough period and if the right hon. Gentleman says that it is not long enough we shall be very glad to consider the point. But we feel that in framing these Amendments we have met exactly what both the Minister and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have stated to be the intention of the Bill. Therefore we cannot rest satisfied with the Minister's assurance as to what he intends, so long as he is unwilling to include words in the Bill which implement his avowed intention. As the Bill stands, it would enable the right hon. Gentleman or more violent successors of his, to carry out the nationalisation of land on a very big scale.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: The Noble Lord has said very much what I wished to say concerning nationalisation. The Minister has made no real defence whatever for retaining the word "let" in this Manse and there is no reason for that word, if the intention of the Bill is what the Minister has declared it to be. If, on the other hand, it is intended by this Bill to bring in the nationalisation of land, then, I agree that it is necessary to retain this word. As the Bill stands a Minister could appoint
    1856
    a crowd of subservient Socialists an this corporation, and a corporation so constituted could purchase land compulsorily and unfortunate landowners and tenants alike might wake up one morning to find that all their rights had been acquired by such a body. That could easily be done if the Bill remained in its present form. I am not sure whether the corporation would pay taxes or not, and they might have a chance of trying to make out that it was possible for large profits to be made out of the letting of land when in fact, in ordinary conditions, that is not the case. The real objection to the present wording is that it is a step towards nationalisation, and that is the only reason why the Government wish to retain this word. I therefore hope that all Members of the House who are opposed to the principle of nationalisation will vote with us for this Amendment.
    Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: I with to draw attention to one point on which, I think, the Minister has unintentionally misled the House. The right hon. Gentleman said that in retaining the word "let" in this Clause he was only following precedents established under the Smallholdings and Allotments Acts and other Acts of that kind. But is that a true, a fair, or a proper analogy? I suggest that it is not. In the first place, local authorities in those cases are limited in their activities by the purpose for which the land can be acquired. In other words, the land is acquired for the purpose of providing smallholdings. In this case there is no such limitation. The activities of this corporation may be directed to acquiring large tracts of land; they have no conditions to fulfil, and are only limited by the sum of money which the Bill entitles them to spend. The sugestion, therefore, that powers similar to those conveyed under the wording of this Clause are exercised in other eases by local authorities cannot, I think, be supported, and I feel that I ought to point out to hon. Members that the conditions are not actually similar.
    Sir HENRY CAUTLEY: May I submit to the Minister another important point which might have to be met in connection with this Measure. In the earlier part of Sub-section (1) of this Clause the corporation is described as being:

    1857
    "for the purpose of promoting and improving the agricultural development of such land in Great Britain as may be vested in the corporation by conducting thereon large-scale farming operations and otherwise."
    On the Committee stage and also on the Report stage I put down Amendments seeking to leave out the words "and otherwise," and to insert some such words as "or purposes ancillary thereto." That was with the intention of limiting the powers of the corporation to promoting the development of agricultural land by large-scale farming operations and purposes ancillary thereto. I understand from the Minister that that is what is intended by the Bill, and those words would, I submit, include all powers of letting that were necessary for the carrying on of large-scale farming operations. Those words would also come in useful as regards the possibility of litigation,
    and it seems to me that that is a matter which the Minister might very well consider. Otherwise, as the Bill is drawn, the observations of the last speaker appear to be well-founded. If the Minister wished to purchase land and develop part of it as a housing estate under these powers, it might be contended that the housing estate was for the purpose of promoting and improving the agricultural development of the rest of the land. If the corporation were limited in the earlier part of the Sub-section to large-scale farming operations and purposes ancillary thereto, no such point would arise and I commend that consideration to the Minister.
    Question put, "That the word 'let' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 261; Noes, 150.

    Division No. 104.]

    AYES.

    [5.9 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife. West)

    Dailas, George

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Dayles, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddertfield)

    Aitchlson, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

    Day, Harry

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Dukes, C.

    Isaacs, George

    Ammon, Charles George

    Duncan, Charles

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Ede, James Chuter

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Arnott, John

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Elmley, Viscount

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ayles, Walter

    England, Colonel A.

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Baker, John (Woiverhampton, Bilston)

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Freeman, Peter

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Barr, James

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Bellamy, Albert

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Kinley, J.

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

    Knight, Holford

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Gill, T. H.

    Lang, Gordon

    Benson, G.

    Gillett, George M.

    Lathan, G.

    Blindell, James

    Glassey, A. E.

    Law, Albert (Bolton)

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Gossling, A. G.

    Law, A. (Rosendale)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Gould, F.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Granville, E.

    Lawson, John James

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Gray, Milner

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Bromley, J.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Leach, W.

    Brooke, W.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Lees, J.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Buchanan, G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Burgess, F. G.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Longden, F.

    Cape, Thomas

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Hardie, George D.

    Lunn. William

    Charieton, H. C.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Macdonald, Gordon (ince)

    Chater, Daniel

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Clarke, J. S.

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    McElwee, A.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Haycock, A. W.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hayday, Arthur

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hayes, John Henry

    McKinlay, A

    Compton, Joseph

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Cove, William G.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Cowan, D. M.

    Herriotts, J.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Mcshane, John James

    Daggar, George

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Potts, John S.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Mansfield, W.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    March, S.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Marcus, M.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Markham, S. F.

    Raynes, W. R.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Marley, J.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Suilivan, J.

    Mathers, George

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Matters, L. W.

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Maxton, James

    Ritson, J.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Melville, Sir James

    Romeril, H. G.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Messer, Fred

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Tillett, Ben

    Middleton, G.

    Rowson, Guy

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Milner, Major J.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Toole, Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Samuel Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Tout, W. J.

    Moriey, Ralph

    Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

    Townend, A. E.

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Sanders, W. S.

    Treveiyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Sandham, E.

    Viant, S. P.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Walker, J.

    Mort, D. L.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Muff, G.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Shield, George William

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Murnin, Hugh

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Weish, James (Paisley)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    West, F. R.

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Shinwell, E.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    White, H. G.

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Palin, John Henry

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Paimer, E. T.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Perry, S. F.

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

    Peters. Or. Sidney John

    Smith, Rennle (Pentstone)

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Wise, E. F.

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Snell, Harry

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Sncwden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Lane Fox, Col, Rt. Hon. George R.

    Albery. Irving James

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Law. Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Lymington. Viscount

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Bellalrs, Commander Cariyon

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Mitchell. Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Fernoy, Lord

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Braithwaite. Major A. N.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Brass. Captain Sir William

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)

    Buchan, John

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Butler, R. A.

    Grattan-Doyle. Sir N.

    Peake. Captain Osbert

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Penny. Sir George

    Campbell, E. T.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Peto. Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hamilton, Sir George (llford)

    Richardson. Sir p. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hanbury, C.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Ross. Major Ronald D.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Christie, J. A.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hurst, Sir Geraid B.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lamb, Sir J. O.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    1860

    1861

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Withers, Sir John James

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Womersley, W. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Captain Wallace and the Marquess of Titchfield.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Mr. GUINNESS: Before you replaced Mr. Speaker in the Chair, Mr. Deputy-speaker, on the last Amendment, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tam-worth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) brought up a proviso to the Subsection under discussion, limiting the powers of letting. It was not, of course, at that stage pos Bible to put this proviso in the form of an Amendment, because until it was settled whether letting was or was not to be permitted, it was not in order, but we understood that Mr. Speaker would be prepared to allow us a Division on that issue, and I would ask that we may be allowed to vote upon it on the understanding that as we have already discussed the principle, we shall not delay the House by any further speeches upon it.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Robert Young): Under these conditions, the Amendment can be formally moved and divided upon.
    Viscount WOLMER: I beg to move, in page 2, line 25, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that if any land so acquired by the corporation is let on lease such letting (except in the case of cottages let for human habitation) shall not continue for a longer period than four years from the date of acquisition, and the land so let shall thereafter be sold unless taken hack into direct occupation by the corporation."
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 260.

    Division No. 105.]

    AYES.

    [5.21 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Albery, Irving James

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Alien, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Dairymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

    Locker-Lampion, Com. O.(Handswth)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Davies, Major. F.(Somerset. Yeovll)

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (kensington, S.)

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Lymington, Viscount

    Astor, Viscountess

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Edmondson. Major A. J.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Ballairs, Commander Carlyon

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weiton-s.-M.)

    Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Fermoy, Lord

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Circncester)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Mnirhead, A. J.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francls E.

    Nicholson. Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrtf'ld)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & otley)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Buchan, John

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Peake, Capt. Osbert

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Butler, R. A.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecciesall)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hamilton, Sir George (Illord)

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir Jamet Renneil

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hanbury, C.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Cayzer. Sir C (Chester, City)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Chamberlain Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Christie, J. A.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Savery, S. S.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Colman, N. C. D

    Hunt, Sir Gerald B.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Lanr Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Southby. Commander A. R. J.

    CrichtonStuart, Lord C.

    Law, Sir Altred (Derby, High Peak)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Ward. Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Womersley, W. J.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Thornson, Sir F.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Tinne, J. A.

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Sir George Bowyer and Captain Wallace.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of o

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Withers, Sir John James

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Gould, F.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Granville, E.

    McShane, John James

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Gray, Milner

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.(HiIisbro')

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Mansfield, W.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Groves, Thomas E.

    March, S.

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Marcus, M.

    Arnott, John

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Markham, S. F.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Marley, J.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mathers, George

    Ayles, Walter

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Matters, L. W.

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Maxton, James

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Melville, Sir James

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hardie, George D.

    Messer, Fred

    Barr, James

    Harris, Percy A.

    Middleton, G.

    Bellamy, Albert

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Milner, Major J.

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Montague, Frederick

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Morley, Ralph

    Bennett, William (Batteraea, South)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Benson, G.

    Hayes. John Henry

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Blindell, James

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Mort, D. L.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke on-Trent)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Herriotts, J.

    Muff, G.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R.,Wentworth)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Murnin, Hugh

    Bromley, J.

    Hopkin. Daniel

    Naylor, T. E.

    Brooke, W.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Noel Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Buchanan, G.

    Isaacs, George

    Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

    Burgen, F. G.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Palin, John Henry

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Eliand)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Palmer, E. T.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Parkinson. John Allen (Wigan)

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Perry, S. F.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Charleson, H. C.

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Chater, Daniel

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Phillips. Dr. Marion

    Clarke, J. S.

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Picton-Turbervill. Edith

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Potts, John S.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kinley, J.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Compton, Joseph

    Knight, Holford

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Cove, William G.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Cowan, D. M.

    Lang, Gordon

    Raynes, W. R.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lathan, G.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Daggar, George

    Law, Albert (Bolton)

    Rlley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Dallas, George

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Rlley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tses)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawrence, Susan

    Ritson, J.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Romeril, H. G.

    Day, Harry

    Lanson, John James

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Rowson, Guy

    Dukes, C.

    Leach, W.

    Salter. Dr. Alfred

    Duncan, Charles

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Lees, J.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Lindley, Fred W

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Scrymgeour, E.

    England. Colonel A.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Long bottom, A. W.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Freeman, Peter

    Longden, F.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Han, Upton)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Shield, George William

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Lunn, William *

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    George, Megan Lloyd (Angletea)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Shinwell, E.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Gill, T. H.

    McElwee, A.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gillett, George M.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Glassey, A. E.

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Gossling, A. G.

    McKinlay, A.

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    1864

    1865

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhitht)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    West, F. R.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Westwood, Joseph

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Tillett, Ben

    White, H. G.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Smith, Tarn (Pontefract)

    Tout, W. J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Townend, A. E.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Soell, Harry

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Viant, S. P.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Walkden, A. G.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Walker, J.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wallace, H. W.

    Wise, E. F.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Strauss, G. R.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.

    Sullivan, J.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Sutton, J. E.

    Wellock, Willred

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    The following Amendments stood upon the Order Paper:
    In page 2, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that the total amount borrowed under this paragraph shall not at any time exceed fifty thousand pounds."—[Captain Bourne.]
    In page 2, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that any money so borrowed shall be deemed to be a portion of the aggregate sum issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof, under the provisions of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section twenty-one of this Act."—[Mr. Guinness.]
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: These two Amendments can be discussed together.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in page 2, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that the total amount borrowed under this paragraph shall not at any time exceed fifty thousand pounds."
    Among other things which may be provided for in the order made by the Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland, in regard to the carrying out of large-scale farming by the corporation, is the power to borrow under such conditions as the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury, lay down. Under Clause 21 of the Bill, this corporation will be provided with £1,000,000 from the Treasury for the purpose of large-scale farming. Out of that sum of money the corporation will have to purchase such land as is required, and to equip and to stock such land. Our contention on this side of the House is that any ordinary floating capital which the corporation may require to carry out its operations should be provided from this £1,000,000. A corporation of this kind, which is financed out of public funds, is in its essence a semi-public body, and
    1866
    there will be a moral, if not a legal, obligation on the taxpayer to make good any deficiencies that may occur. Should the corporation unfortunately find itself bankrupt, having lost large sums of money, it will be very difficult for the State to avoid compensating those to whom it owes money and making up the deficiencies and losses that may occur. For this reason, we are very anxious to limit the power of borrowing. As the Bill is drawn, we feel that there is nothing to prevent the corporation except possibly the refusal of the Treasury, spending £1,000,000 in buying land, and then borrowing, say, £600,000 on mortgage on the security of that land for the purpose of equipping and stocking it, and thus, in point of fact, acquiring a very much larger amount of capital money than is intended under the Bill. In any case, under Clause 22, the corporation is bound to repay, and we feel that a definite sum of £1,000,000 which is to be repaid in 60 years is ample for this corporation.
    Far too many people who have failed in farming have attempted to carry on with borrowed money, and in this case, when this large sum of public money is being employed, the amount of borrowing should be reduced to a minimum. When this matter was raised in the Committee stage upstairs, it was pointed out, on behalf of the Government—and I am bound to say with some justice—that occasions might easily arise when it would be necessary for the corporation to have a temporary overdraft. We all realise that towards the end of the harvest season, when the outgoings are very large and before the crops can be realised, there is a time when it is difficult for anybody who is farming to avoid having a bank overdraft. It seems to us that if we gave the corporation a limit of bank overdraft of £50,000 at any time, it should

    1867
    be ample to cover this very temporary emergency between the harvesting and the selling of the crop.
    Sir JOSEPH LAMB: I beg to second the Amendment.
    This is a limiting Amendment. There should certainly be a limit to the operations of the corporation until the operations have proved to be in some degree successful. Some of us have grave doubts whether it is possible for large-scale farms to be run at a profit, and it is only reasonable that the operations should be limited to a certain extent by the money which they are allowed to borrow. As there are instances which have already demonstrated that large-scale farming in this country is not successful, it is doubtful whether the corporation will be able to make a success of it, and if we allow large-scale farming to go on an unlimited scale, we shall run the risk of wasting large sums of money. Under the last Amendment we have not only allowed the corporation to acquire this money for large-scale farming, but to let land. That is another reason why we should limit the amount, because we do not know for what purpose they will require to let. The corporation will be set up for large-scale farming or otherwise, and we have not been told what "otherwise" includes. It may be something for which we would consider they were not justified in going to the public and asking for money.
    I understand that the corporation will go to the public for this money, and although it is not really a Government security, undoubtedly, as the corporation will be set up by the Government, there will be an implied, if not an actual guarantee given by the Government for the money. If that guarantee is implied, the public may subscribe the money to a much larger extent than they are justified in doing, and more than they would do if they knew the purpose for which the money is being raised. To a certain extent, it is necessary for this House to protect the public from the possibility of their providing money—[Interruption.] It is quite necessary. Probably the trade unions may feel that they would like to invest some of their money in the corporation, but I should be sorry to see them risking their money in such a scheme. It is important that the corporation should not be allowed to go to
    1868
    the country and ask for money when there is an implied guarantee by the Government, and the objects for which the money is being granted is so doubtful with regard to their results.
    We have not been told satisfactorily what are to be the limits of the security. I take it that the security will perhaps be the land, but we have not been told whether it is the land or the stock which has been bought and placed upon the land. There are certain periods of the year in farming operations when the capital which is invested in stock is very much higher than at any other period; such a security is very varying, and the public will not have the opportunity of knowing this. That is another reason why we should attempt to limit the operations of the corporation until they have by their demonstration farms proved that large-scale farming is successful. This is not a wrecking Amendment, because £50,000 is sufficient to allow them to farm on the scale on which they wish to demonstrate. We have been told that this is not a nationalisation Bill. If, however, they make a success of one large-scale farm, is that to be a demonstration for private enterprise to copy, or will they acquire more land and so on, until we have nationalisation in a modified form? We have not been told that.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): The hon. Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) very rightly said that this was a limiting Amendment, and he might have added that it was a cramping Amendment. The hon. Gentleman and his friends raised this, or a similar point, in Committee upstairs, and it was urged with considerable, eloquence and persistence. The answer to the criticism on this point is very simple. The corporation is to be endowed with powers of an ordinary trading and commercial corporation. If it is to succeed at all, the fewer handicaps and difficulties with which it is surrounded, the better, but it is recognised that there must be some protection and some limitation. These limitations and protections are set forth precisely in the Bill. First of all, before the corporation is permitted to borrow any money at all, it must do so under regulations and powers approved of by the Minister; secondly, Treasury

    1869
    consent must be obtained, and hon. Members in any part of the House who have ever had experience of getting Treasury consent to anything will realise that that is not an imaginary barrier.
    Sir J. LAMB: Consent to borrow.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Yes. There are many people in the part of the world from which I come who do not desire to borrow if they can avoid it, and I presume that if the corporation can avoid borrowing they will do so; but if between outgoing expenditure and incoming returns the necessity arises for having the corporation financed, then, surely, it would be the height of absurdity, if we are going in for this experiment at all, to say at the outset that under no circumstances, even with Treasury control, the Minister's approval and all the rest of it, shall that corporation he permitted to function as another corporation would be and borrow up to the limits of its security. Therefore, I say, this would be a cramping Amendment—more than a limiting Amendment, a cramping Amendment. The second point raised was answered upstairs, where it was shown that continuous pressure can be brought to bear upon this corporation. The Minister can be "shot at" regularly in this House. If he gives approval to regulations or to proceedings which are wild or impossible then he can be attacked regularly and persistently in this House.
    Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE - LISTER: Will the hon. Gentleman say on what occasions the Minister can be attacked by debate, except on the annual Vote of the Board of Agriculture?
    Mr. JO HNSTON: Nobody knows better than the right hon. Gentleman that the Opposition would only have to table a Vote of Censure and ask for %day, and the Government would be compelled to give them time for any matter of such importance. The only further point I want to take is that the majority of the House is in favour of this corporation and this experiment. Royal Commissions have recommended that it should be tried, Royal Commissions upon which Conservative Ministers for Agriculture have sat, the Committee have discussed the thing in detail upstairs, and yet the House is now being asked at the outset of the experiment to cramp, cabin
    1870
    and confine it by an Amendment which says that in no possible set of circumstances shall the corporation be permitted to borrow more than £50,000.
    Sir J. LAMB: Is there any limit at all to its borrowing powers?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Yes, there are limits, the limits, for example, that are set by the Minister, and the limits that are set by the Treasury, who, it may be, would sometimes be in opposition to the Minister's point of view.
    Sir J. LAMB: You say there are limits and then you state the possible limits that there "may be." I am asking if there are limits.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: And I am answering. I say, first of all, there is the limit set by the Minister, and, secondly, there is the limit set by the Treasury, and, thirdly, there is the limit set by the lenders.
    Sir J. LAMB: What is it?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Well, lenders usually lend upon security, and the amount of security observable and available fixes the amount the lenders will advance. But no matter what the security may be—the security might be millions of pounds—the hon. Gentleman and his friends say that under no circumstances shall the corporation be able to borrow more than £50,000. It is an impossible Amendment, it is an Amendment designed, frankly, to wreck this experiment, and the Government cannot possibly accept it.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I think the Government have been well advised to change the batting upon this Amendment. We discussed it upstairs, as the hon. Member has told us, but he has not told us that he has now given us an entirely different answer. What was the point upstairs? I have it here, and it will be found in column 133 of the report of the Committee's proceedings. If the Amendment which I moved then had been carried, the Amendment limiting the financial accommodation of this company to the total of £1,000,000, which was to be found by the Treasury, controlled by the Minister, the corporation, it was said, could not borrow money for the purposes of buying stock, and so forth. We have met that point, and

    1871
    now the hon. Member is forced to take other grounds and to say that we are not giving the ordinary facilities which would be enjoyed by any other corporation.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: That is precisely the argument I used when I was replying in Committee upstairs.
    Mr. GUINNESS: As a matter of fact, it was the Minister who replied to the discussion, and I cannot find that the hon. Member took any part in the Debate.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: If the right hon. Gentleman will excuse me, he will find what the hon. Gentleman said in columns 124 and 125 of the Committee's report.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I think the hon. Member for the City of Oxford (Captain Bourne) has taken these arguments of the Government a little too seriously, because really, as we have been shown to-day, there is no possible interference with the necessary financial facilities of the corporation involved in the acceptance of the Amendment which stands in my name. That Amendment seeks to limit the total advances to this corporation, whether from the Exchequer or from the banks and private lenders, to a total of £1,000,000. Provided that the Exchequer had not already gone to the full limit of £1,000,000, there is nothing in the Bill, as we would propose to amend it, to prevent the corporation getting the balance as ordinary accommodation from a bank. I think it is a deplorable suggestion that this corporation is to be run on overdrafts and that an accommodation of £50,000 is not sufficient. We do not object to reasonable capital provision, but surely that should be advanced by the Treasury as working capital, and it is absolutely unsound that the corporation should be able to mortgage its assets, which are nominally limited to £1,000,000, and raise, perhaps, 75 per cent. on that £1,000,000 from the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, or by means of agricultural charges. The Treasury million will be a revolving capital. It is true that if profits are made they are to be repaid as is convenient to the finances of the corporation, but that does not mean that the corporation need be kept in any way short of the necessary money, and it is very misleading to the public to see that
    1872
    their liabilities in connection with this corporation are £11,000,000 when really the corporation may secure pig on pork, going a great deal further, if they go to the banks or to the public to raise further sums, everybody will know that the Government could not possibly allow this corporation to break down, and, in effect, the security will be what amounts to a Treasury guarantee behind the bond.
    The hon. Member has told us tat the sole control over this is really a Vote of Censure. This is not money which will appear year by year in our Votes. It is money which will be granted once and for all from the Exchequer. Accounts will, no doubt, be furnished by the corporation and published, but it is not a matter which will normally be raised on the Vote. I take it would be out of order on the Vote to discuss the affairs of this corporation, seeing that it will not figure every year under any heading in the Votes as being in receipt of voted money. For that reason, we are called upon to insert even stronger safeguards than we would be if its proceedings came automatically under review on the Estimates every year. I understand from what you have said, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in calling these Amendments, that we may discuss both these alternatives together. It is quite understood that the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford City has put down this limiting Amendment in respect of £50,000 of borrowed money on the strength of what was said by the Government in Committee.
    The Government now want to go further, but I think we all feel that this limit is not really the proper way to deal with it, and that the honest course to the taxpayer is to have an effective limit of £1,000,000 for the total finance, and that that £1,000,000 be raised either from the Treasury-or by borrowing on the capital which the Treasury has provided; but if they choose to borrow let it be an alternative method of finance and not additional to what is found by the taxpayer. I hope we shall have some further consideration of this matter from the Government, because it fills me with disquiet to see that they have refused this suggestion we now put forward, and have shown thereby that they really propose to go far beyond the £1,000,000, envisaging an addition under which the corporation will have a much greater

    1873
    capital that that obtained either through the Land Mortgage Corporation or through other channels.
    6.0 p.m.
    Colonel LANE FOX: The speech which has just been made by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland shows very clearly the financial reckless ness of this Measure. The Amendment we are discussing does not propose that there should be Lo power of borrowing, but that there should be a limit placed upon that power, and if the Government think that limit is too great, then it is for the Government to suggest sonic other limit. To argue that the corporation to be established under this Bill should have the same powers as an ordinary trading association is absurd, and can lead only to colossal extravagance. An ordinary trading corporation is not endowed at the start with £1,000,000 of public money, and the risks which this corporation has to undertake are not the same risks as those of the ordinary trading company. This corporation will have a Government guarantee, and will be in an entirely different position as compared with an ordinary trading corporation. The Under-Secretary of State has told the House that in case the Minister exceeds a reasonable limit of expenditure on large-scale farming, hon. Members can move a Vote of Censure, but a cumbrous proceeding of that kind is not a practical suggestion for resisting extravagant expenditure.
    We all know the amount of pressure so frequently put on the Treasury which is very hard to resist, and we do not want to add to the numberless cases which the Treasury already have to fight. It is our duty to see that the task of the Treasury is not made any harder than it is at the present time. We have been told that the intention of large-scale farming is to make a profit, but surely it is not unreasonable to suggest that there should be a limit of £50,000 in regard to such expenditure. There must be some limit put upon any extravagance in which the Government might be tempted to indulge in this direction. I think that the Under-Secretary should inform us what sort of an overdraft he considers would be necessary for large-scale farming. Hon. Members opposite have not had the experience in farming and farm overdrafts which
    1874
    many hon. Members who sit on this side of the House have had.
    Mr. ALPASS: Some of us have.
    Colonel LANE FOX: I believe that the hon. Member for Central Bristol (Mr. Alpass) is the only one who has had any practical experience in the running of a farm. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Our objection to the financial proposals of this Bill are based on practical experience, and I hope the House will not allow the Government to have unlimited credit in pursuing their policy.
    Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: In his reply, the Under-Secretary stated that, as this matter was discussed very fully during the Committee stage, it was quite unnecessary to have it raised again at any length on the Report stage. It Ts necessary to raise this question again on account of the completely unsatisfactory nature of the reply which was given by the Minister of Agriculture in Committee upstairs, and also to the fact that this proposal is an extremely important one and any time devoted to it is by no means wasted. Let the House visualise the position. We will assume that this Bill has become an Act, and that, on a certain day, when the corporation has been appointed, they are to be allowed to commence their farming operations. The first thing they will do will be to, purchase the land, but I presume that, before doing that, they will have made some calculation as to how much of the £1,000,000 is to be devoted, in the first place, to the purchase of land; in the second place, to the purchase of stock, and, thirdly, how much is to be allotted to ordinary working capital to be available for the payment of wages and the ordinary out-goings of farming operations. They will have £1,000,000 to start with, and surely that ought to be enough for anybody who is going to enter upon the great gamble of farming under present conditions.
    The corporation are to be allowed to operate still further, and give security for the money they wish to borrow. What security are the corporation to be allowed to give in respect to any borrowings which they may make 4 The £1,000,000 which is to be lent to the corporation by the Treasury is the taxpayers' money, and the purchases made with that money,

    1875
    whether it is invested in freehold land, livestock or used for working expenses will belong to the taxpayer, and surely it is correct to say that all that property is vested in the taxpayers. It has been bought with the taxpayers' money, and therefore the taxpayers are entitled to say that the whole of the land purchased, or any of the loose cash for farming operations, belongs to the taxpayers and to nobody else. The Bill says that the corporation may borrow and give security, but what security have the corporation to offer to those who lend money? The corporation have no security at all, because the security belongs to the taxpayers.
    The Mover of the Amendment pointed out very clearly that if the corporation should be involved in heavy financial losses—and that is a possibility—there would lie a moral obligation on the taxpayers to make good those losses. Surely the taxpayers, if they have to run that risk, are entitled to have such assets as rightly belong to them. We find that under the provisions of this Measure the corporation are allowed to pledge those assets elsewhere in respect of further borrowings. When the taxpayers find that this great State farming experiment has proved a failure, and a Vote of Censure on the Minister of Agriculture has been moved they will he able to say that all the sums realised by the sale of property after that failure will belong to them. Is that the intention of the Government? That is what must inevitably happen, because the corporation have to give some security, and they have no security to offer. The corporation become a borrower the moment they get the taxpayers' money, and that is the reason why my hon. Friends on this side have thought it absolutely essential that the corporation should be limited in their borrowing powers to the sum of £50,000.
    In my view, the corporation require no further borrowing powers. When the corporation make their calculations in the first instance, the £1,000,000 could be put into the three main spending departments. If there was any question of the corporation being tapped for additional money, then it might be quite reasonable to allow further borrowing powers, but, at a time when the nation is going
    1876
    through financial stress and distress, this House should watch every penny that is being spent or is going to be borrowed, because in the end the taxpayers have to foot the bill. The sum of £1,000,000 is more than enough with which to entrust any corporation, however skilled they may be in farming, or however well equipped they may be. It is ample for any body which proposes to enter into the risky occupation of farming at the present time.
    Sir ERNEST SHEPPERSON: We are now discussing one of the agricultural Measures put forward by the Government. I would like to inform the Government at once that if I thought the expenditure of this money was going to help the agricultural industry, I should be the last person to support an Amendment to limit the amount, and I should not stand up to support an Amendment to limit the borrowing powers of this corporation to the sum of £50,000. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has said that the corporation can borrow up to the limit of its security. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maldon (Lieut.-Colonel Ruggles-Brise) has asked, and I would repeat the question, what that security is to be, and what will be the limit of the borrowing powers on that security. I would also ask who, if this great experiment in large-scale farming fails, will bear the loss. As far as I can see from the Bill, the loss must eventually fall on the taxpayers of this country.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) said that he had some doubts as to the success of this large-scale farming. I disagree; I have no doubt; I have the absolute certain knowledge that it, will involve a loss. Unfortunately, and to my cost, I speak with considerable knowledge in regard to the possible losses on both large-scale and small-scale farming. I have had a life experience of ordinary farming, and also, unfortunately, a long experience of large-scale farming. I was connected with a large-scale farming operation in Lincolnshire, and I understand that it is possible, when this Bill goes through, that the Government will start an experimental large-scale farm in that county. Therefore, I have some knowledge as to what will happen when they undertake that experiment.

    1877
    This experiment in large-scale farming is for the purpose of demonstrating mechanisation as applied to agriculture, and, as mechanisation is generally applied on the arable side, I think I have a right to assume that this will be an experiment in arable farming. My experience of large-scale farming in Lincolnshire is that the losses upon it will be far in excess of those on small farms, and the losses on small arable farming recently have been great. Therefore, I feel justified in assuming that the losses on large-scale farming will be still greater. The concern in which I was interested started with a figure somewhat similar to that laid down in this Bill, namely, £1,250,000. I put my money into its preference shares at £1 a share, and I became a director of that concern. [Interruption.] During all the years that I was connected with it, I did not receive one penny of interest on the money that I put into it, nor did I receive any director's fees or any of my expenses for attending meetings. Under this scheme of the Government, the directors are going to receive fees which will not come from the profits of the concern—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is a little wide of the Amendment.
    Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I offer my apologies. My only reason for raising this point is that I want to save the taxpayers of the country as much as I can, and from my own knowledge I can say that they will lose money. I support this Amendment in that it will at any rate limit the loss to a certain extent.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: The Under-Secretary described this Amendment as a cramping one. I presume he means that it will cramp the operations of the Agricultural Land Corporation. That is a tacit admission that the corporation intends to expend a sum vastly in excess of the £1,000,000 which the Treasury is granting for the purpose of this experiment on large-scale farming. £1,000,000 is a large sum with which to start farming in this country. I think I am right in saying that no private individual, company or corporation has ever started farming in this country with a capital of £1,000,000 behind it. [Interruption.] I was referring to small-scale farming. We all know that the ideas of the Labour party are very large indeed,
    1878
    but I should think that even they would describe farming with a capital of £1,000,000 as a tolerably large-scale operation.
    Mr. MacLAREN: It was £20,000,000 in the case of the beet sugar subsidy.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: That was paid for value received; it was not, as it is going to be in this case, cast into the sea an a very doubtful experiment.
    It is not, of course, necessary that the Agricultural Land Corporation should at once expend the entire £1,000,000 on the purchase of land. For half that sum they could get sufficient land for experimental farming on a very large scale. I imagine that it is not necessary at the present time for them to pay more than, say, £20 an acre for the land on which they are going to experiment. I imagine that it is not their intention to buy the very best farming land, such as is being made to pay at the present time, but to buy land of lesser value, to recondition and stock it, and to make their experiments upon it. Therefore, they would be able to start their farming operations with 25,000 acres of land, and would still have £500,000 left for stocking and for providing agricultural machinery. Surely that is enough to carry on with. They will still have a good deal left—probably £150,000—as working capital. Is it necessary that they should have carte blanche to borrow to any extent?
    The Under-Secretary himself said that the Agricultural Land Corporation wanted to have power to borrow up to the limit of their security. If they have expended £500,000 on the purchase of land, they will certainly be able, on the security of that property, to borrow another £400,000. If they have expended £250,000 on plant and agricultural machinery, they will certaintly be able to borrow another £100,000 on that, and, in addition, they will probably be able to borrow another £100,000 on the security of their growing crops. That means that they are asking for powers to borrow up to some £600,000 in addition to the £1,000,000 which they will be authorised to spend.
    The hon. Gentleman made some reference to Treasury control, but is the Treasury going to have any effective control over their borrowing? It seems

    1879
    to me that, once this land has been purchased, the directors of the corporation will, to all intents and purposes, have carte blanche to borrow on the security of the land that they are farming, without any reference to the Treasury at all. I am not sure; that their powers of borrowing end there, because we find later in the Bill that the Treasury is to issue to the Minister sums up to £5,000,000 for the purchase of land to be reconditioned and used as allotments. Are they to be entitled also to pledge the £5,000,000 expended for this purpose? If so, they are indeed obtaining borrowing powers to an amazing extent. Surely this £1,000,000 of capital, plus the power to borrow £50,000 more, which should be held in reserve for an emergency, is sufficient for them to carry on with. It would be more than sufficient for any private company or individual to carry on farming on that scale. I do not think it is fair to admit that the fact of its being carried on under Government supervision will mean that the losses may be so large that this gigantic amount of borrowing power is necessary. This Amendment, which I am supporting, is not a cramping Amendment. It is put down, in the interests of the taxpayer, simply to restrain the notorious profligacy of the Labour Government.
    Captain CAZALET: I want to ask a simple question. I have been reading through the report of the proceedings in the Standing Committee, and it was not made clear there, nor has it been made clear here to-day, why £1,000,000 is not sufficient to meet all the needs of the Government under this Clause. As far as I can understand, the Treasury is to advance to the corporation £1,000,000, and the corporation will not have to pay any interest on this sum. They can invest that £1,000,000 in buying land, stock and implements. Then, under the Agricultural Credits Act, 1928, on that £1,000,000 which they have expended they can go to the Agricultural Mortgage Loan Company and get a further advance equal to two-thirds of the estimated value of their property, that is to say, another £500,000; and under Part II of the same Act, which deals with short-term credits, they can get an agricultural charge on all or any of the farming stock and other assets belonging to them. If
    1880
    necessary, they could get a charge of at least another £500,000. Therefore, if there is no limit to the borrowing powers of this corporation, they can borrow no less than £2,000,000, on the security, of course, of the taxpayers' money.
    What obligation is there upon this company to repay the money? We know that they have to make provision for security of payment to the Treasury of all moneys received on behalf of the corporation which are not required for the purposes of the corporation, but who is to decide what the purposes of the corporation may be? They may desire to extend even further their farming activities, and, therefore, they are under no obligation to return to the Treasury, until they wish to do so, any interest on the money originally borrowed. It seems to me that this is an endless indulgence on the part of the Government. The corporation could go on buying land as far as they like, up to an almost unlimited figure. If in one year their operations do not pay, there is nothing to prevent them from continuing, in the hope that in the next year things will be better. We believe that, in dealing with the taxpayers' money, especially at the present time, some limit should be put upon what must be, in the words of the Minister himself, an experiment, and, we think, a very doubtful one even at that—
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I was very interested to hear what the Under-Secretary said, and to notice that, generally speaking, he was rather more consistent than is usually the case with speeches from the Front Bench opposite. In this matter of guarantee there is absolutely no security for the taxpayer, and I do not think the House has realised how far the Government, through the Minister of Agriculture, have committed themselves-upstairs in Committee. Those who were members of the Committee, or who have taken the trouble to refer to the reports of its proceedings, will be aware that the Minister himself, referring to this matter said:
    "Then we say, not only that the Treasury shall prescribe the conditions upon which it may borrow, but also provide for the security upon which this money may be borrowed."
    In other words, the Treasury is giving full security. He goes on to say:
    "This is a double-barrelled guarantee of the safety of these transactions."

    1881
    Then there was an interruption by the late Minister of Agriculture in which he said:
    "And the Treasury would pay the interest in case of need?"
    To that remark the Minister replied:
    "I do not know what would happen then."
    I was not surprised at that. He went on:
    "In the long run, if they failed, probably would."
    Then he became a little shakier in his knowledge of the matter. At the end he said:
    "If you can express it more clearly, I shall be glad to have it expressed. We have Treasury sanction as to the conditions on which it can borrow, and as to the conditions of the security. I should like to know what more we can have."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 1st December, 1930; cols, 130–31.]
    He has been told to-day what more he can have and, if he wishes to carry out his definite pledge, he has in this Amendment a method whereby he can carry it out and, if the pledge and the condition that he made in his speech upstairs is really worth anything, if he wants to guarantee the position of the taxpayer, I suggest that he should accept it. He was obviously asking help from the Opposition, and this Amendment is the help that he requires. He has only to accept it, and his position will be perfectly simple and easy. Moreover, the House itself would be in a much more satisfactory position. The Under-Secretary pointed out that, in the first place you have the guarantee, as far as the taxpayer is concerned, of the Minister. We have a very indifferent Ministry at present, but it is quite conceivable that in the course of the next generation there may be another Socialist Ministry even worse than the present. Since I have been in the House, I have never seen any Department of a Ministry which is a real guarantee in favour of the taxpayers. Some Ministries are better and some worse than others, and that is about all. Then we are told that we have the guarantee of the Treasury, and that they will lay down some limit to the amount of money that can be borrowed. We only have to look round at the Departments to-day and see the colossal waste on every hand, and how the Chancellor of the Exchequer allows himself to be
    1882
    squeezed at every turn. Treasury control in its real sense is nothing like what it ought to be.
    There is a further point which I put in Committee which the Minister and his various helpers have never been able to answer. I am not sorry to have been able to put a question that the Minister could not answer. It would be a pleasant relief if I could find one important question that he could answer. You cannot reduce these great financial questions to such simplicity that the ordinary Minister in this Government can answer them. You cannot deal with a matter involving millions of pounds in such a simple way that his mind could understand it, such as asking him how many halfpennies go to a penny. My hon. Friend has pointed out the extraordinary amount that you could borrow under this proposal. I would ask one question. Under these powers which the Minister has, can they use the £1,000,000 to pay interest on the money that they borrow We have no representative of the Treasury here, and we have not had, and we ought on an occasion like this to be told the extent to which the Treasury intend to use this money. It is all very well to say you have this theoretical control, but you have not found that you have it in practice.
    It is all very well for the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to pretend, after all the failures of the Ministry to carry this out on every occasion, that we can have a Vote of Censure on the Government. You cannot have Votes of Censure on matters like this, because you would take the whole time of the House in having one Vote of Censure after another. I hope we shall be permitted to divide on both these Amendments, because they raise very considerable questions. Our chances of dealing with finance are extremely limited and are getting more and more cut down, and it is only right that we should have, as on this occasion, the opportunity of expressing our opinion on the financial side of it. There is a further question on this matter of finance. The Minister, both here and upstairs, is in rather a tangle on the matter. I do not understand why it is that, in dealing with a matter which involves many millions of pounds, we never have any help from the Treasury itself. [Interruption.] I should like to

    1883
    protest against the perpetual discourtesy of members of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in particular. He never comes to the House of Commons and never does his work—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have been very patient with the hon. Member in waiting for his question. The Amendments dealt with borrowing powers and their limits.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I was going to ask, if only I had the opportunity of asking someone who understands what are the limitations to borrowing under these conditions? As none of the existing occupants of the Treasury Bench seem to understand the Clause, and the borrowing part of it, I was putting in a protest that I should like to see it explained by one of the so-called financial authorities of the Government. It is utterly wrong that the House should not have the most skilled and competent expert advice, but should be asked to vote blindly.
    Viscount WOLMER: I wish we could get from the Government their real objection to either of the Amendments which my hon. Friends have put down. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland says they would cramp the work of the corporation, but surely that, from the point of view for which this corporation is set up, is the greatest nonsense in the world. The object of it is to give a demonstration to farmers in large-scale farming, and for that purpose they are provided with £1,000,000 in cash, and we want to limit them, roughly speaking, to that £1,000,000, but the Government insist on leaving the Bill in such a form that they can extend it by many hundreds of thousands of pounds. I want to ask the Minister what really is to be gained from the point of view of this demonstration in agriculture by having this vast capitalization? Let us suppose the almost inconceivable contingency that this large-scale farm, from a financial point of view, will be a great success. If that occurs, what good will it be to the ordinary farmers to know that a corporation with a capital of £2,000,000 has been able to make farming pay, and how many farmers have £2,000,000 with which to copy the example the right hon. Gentleman will have furnished? [An HON. MEMBER: "They could combine!"] That means that you are contemplating
    1884
    covering the country with limited liability companies, if anyone says that is going to improve the countryside, he does not know anything about the countryside.
    Hon. Members opposite are always complaining about the action of limited liability companies in industry. They are for ever telling us that these great companies have destroyed all personal touch between master and man, and that the root evils of the industrial system spring from this system of capitalisation. Yet here are the Government instituting an experiment the only justification of which can be the establishment of capitalisation in agriculture. There is no one who knows anything about the countryside who would like to see that occur. You do not want this great aggregation of capital. There is no need for it. If you have your £1,000,000, you can have a farm twice as big as any other in the country and you can have all the machinery you want. You can copy all the methods of Canada or America. How many farms in Canada are capitalised to the extent of £1,000,000? The hon. Member could count them on the fingers of his hand. Agriculture, not only of the old world but of the new-world, is carried out on a much smaller figure even than that. The real reason, I suppose, is psychological. The Minister of Agriculture is incapable of considering any figure lower than £1,000,000. Any smaller sum, apparently, is too niggardly for his consideration. The Royal Veterinary College may ask for £100,000, and he simply cannot take any notice of it.
    Dr. ADDISON: You are quite wrong.
    Viscount WOLMER: I am very glad to hear the Minister say that he is prepared to give the Royal Veterinary College what they want. That is the first intimation we have had on that subject, and I am sure the governors of that college will read his statement in the paper tomorrow with great appreciation. I submit to the Minister that if this corporation is merely intended to be what he says it is intended to be, that is to say, demonstrative, then there is nothing in either of these two Amendments which will interfere with the value of that demonstration in any degree whatever. On the contrary, it will be some small guarantee that the scale of farming will

    1885
    be kept within such a size as to be of some practical value to agriculture. It is no good having a Brobdingnagian scale—[Interruption.] It is no good having an experiment on that scale when people have to live and farm on a totally different scale.
    The only justification for these gigantic figures is, what we have always suspected, and which the right hon. Gentleman has never been able to convince us is not the case, that the Minister has really designed in this Bill all the machinery which will enable him or his party at a later date to carry out the nationalisation of land. The whole framework of this Bill is built on a scale to enable the Labour party to carry out the nationalisation of land. They smile pleasantly and give us verbal assurances that whatever may be their ultimate intention, this Bill has nothing whatever to do with it. Whenever we propose an Amendment which is designed to limit the scope of the Bill and the scope of the pretensions of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, we find that those
    Amendments are resisted. Therefore, we are bound to attach importance to the extraordinary spectacle of Ministers, without giving any adequate reason, insisting on retaining financial powers in this Bill altogether beyond those required for the purposes which they profess to have at heart. I very much hope that my hon. Friends will divide on both these Amendments, because it will show the country that when we make an attempt to limit this experiment to reasonable figures, and to tie it down to the purpose for which it can possibly be of any use, we have to do so in the face of the opposition and refusal of His Majesty's Government.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 263; Noes, 161.

    Division No. 106.]

    AYES.

    [6.51 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Compton, Joseph

    Hayday, Arthur

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Cove, William O.

    Hayes, John Harvey

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Cowan, D. M.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Daggar, George

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Dallas, George

    Herriotts, J.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Arnott, John

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hollins, A.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Devlin, Joseph

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Dukes, C.

    Hudson, James H. (Hudderafield)

    Ayles, Walter

    Duncan, Charles

    Hunter. Dr. Joseph

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Isaacs, George

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Barnes. Alfred John

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Barr, James

    Elmley, Viscount

    Johnston, Thomas

    Bellamy, Albert

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Bann, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Freeman, Peter

    Jones, Henry Hayon (Merioneth)

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Benson, G.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    Kennedy, Rt Hon. Thomas

    Blindell, James

    Gill, T. H.

    Ken worthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Gillett, George M.

    Kinley, J.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Glassey, A. E.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Gossling, A. G.

    Knight, Holford

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Gould, F.

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lang, Gordon

    Brooke, W.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Gray, Milner

    Lathan, G.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Law, Albert (Bolton)

    Buchanan, G.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Bargees, F. G.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Eiland)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Cameron, A. G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Leach, W.

    Cape, Thomas

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hamilton. Mary Aqnes (Blackburn)

    Lees, J.

    Chater, Daniel

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Hardie, George D.

    Lloyd, C. Eills

    Cluse, W. S.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Lagan, David Gilbert

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hastings, Dr. Somervllle

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymoar

    Haycock, A. W.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Lunn, William

    Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Palin, John Henry

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    McElwee, A.

    Palmer, E. T.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Snell, Harry

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Perry, S. F.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    McKinlay, A.

    Peters. Dr. Sidney John

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Stephen, Campbell

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    McShane, John James

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Potts, John S.

    Sullivan, J.

    mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Sutton, J. E.

    Mansfield, W.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    March, S

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Marcus, M.

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Markham, S. F.

    Raynes, W. R.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Marley, J.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Tout, W. J.

    Mathers, George

    Rlley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Townend, A. E.

    Matters, L. W.

    Rlley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Maxton, James

    Romeril, H. G.

    Viant, S. P.

    Melville, Sir James

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Messer, Fred

    Rowson, Guy

    Walker, J.

    Middleton, G.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Wallace, H. W.

    Millar, J. D.

    Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

    Watkins, F. C.

    Milner, Major J.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Montague. Frederick

    Sandham, E.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Wellock, Willred

    Morley, Ralph

    Scott, James

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Scrymgcour, E.

    West, F. R.

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Scurr, John

    Westwood, Joseph

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    White, H. G.

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Mort, D. L.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Shield, George William

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Muff, G.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    shillaker, J. F.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Murnin, Hugh

    Shinwell, E.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Ben Smith.

    Oliver, Gtorge Harold (Ilkeston)

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Christie, J. A.

    Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Albery, Irving James

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wiltrid W.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Courthope, Colonel sir G. L.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon John Waller

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Culvorwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Balfour. Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Lamb, Sir J. O

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Bird. Ernest Roy

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Leighton. Major B. E. P.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Ersklne, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s-M.)

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Boyce, Leslie

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Bracken, B.

    Ford. Sir P. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Forestier-Walker, sir L.

    Long, Major Hon. Erie

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Brown, Gal. O. C. (N'th'Id'., Hexham)

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & otley)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Butler, R. A.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Graham. Fergus (Cemberland, N.)

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Grattan-Doyle. Sir N.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Castle Stewart, Earl ol

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Chamberlain Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hanbury, C.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    1888

    1889

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Smithers, Waldron

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Penny, Sir George

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Withers, Sir John James

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Ruggles-Brise. Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Train, J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 166; Noes, 262.

    Division No. 107.]

    AYES.

    [7.2 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.Colonel

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Albery. Irving James

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Forestier-Walker. Sir L.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fremantie, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Ganzoni, Sir john

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & otley)

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Grenfell. Edward C. (City of London)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Hanbury, C.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Boyce, Lesile

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Savery, S. S.

    Bracken, B.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hailam)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Smithers, Waldron

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Butler, R. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, city)

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Lamb, Sir J. O.

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Chamberiain Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Chamberialn, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquees of

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Christle, J. A.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P

    Train, J.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Crichton-Stuart. Lord C.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Withers, Sir John James

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Sir George Penny and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Moore, Lieut-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Mort, D. L.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgle M.

    Hardie, George D.

    Muff, G.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Harris, Percy A.

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Murnin, Hugh

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Haycock, A. W.

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Arnott, John

    Hayday, Arthur

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Hayes. John Henry

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Oliver. George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Ayles, Walter

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

    Baldwin, Oilver-(Dudley)

    Herriotts, J.

    Palin, John Henry.

    Barnes. Alfred John

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Went worth)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Barr, James

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Palmer, E. T.

    Bellamy, Albert

    Hollins, A.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Perry, S. F.

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Benson, G.

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Phillips, Dr. Marlon

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Isaacs, George

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Bilndell, James

    John. William (Rhondda. West)

    Potts, John S.

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Johnston, Thomas

    pybus, Percy John

    Bowen, J. W.

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Raynes, W. R.

    8rooke, W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Riley. Ben (Dewsbury)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Buchanan, G.

    Kinley, J.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Knight, Holford

    Rowson, Guy

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Lang, Gordon

    Salter. Dr. Alfred

    Cameron, A. G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Lathan, G.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Law, Albert (Bolton)

    Sandham, E

    Charleson, H. C.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lawrence, Susan

    Scott, James

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Scurr, John

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Leach, W.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Compton, Joseph

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Cove, William G.

    Lees, J.

    Shield, George William

    Cowan, D. M.

    Lindley, Fred W.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Daggar, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shinwell, E.

    Dallas, George

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Sinclair. Sir A. (Caithness)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Devlin, Joseph

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    Dukes, C.

    McElwee, A.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Duncan, Charles

    McEntee, V. L.

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Ede, James Chuter

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McKinlay, A.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Maclean. Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Snell, Harry

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Freeman, Peter

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham. Upton)

    McShane, John James

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Stephen, Campbell

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    Mansfield, W.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    March, S.

    Sullivan, J.

    Gill, T. H.

    Marcus, M.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Gillett, George M.

    Markham, S. F.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Glatsey, A. E.

    Marley, J.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Mathers, Georqe

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Gould, F.

    Matters, L. W.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maxton, James

    Tout, W. J.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Melville, Sir James

    Townend, A. E.

    Gray, Milner

    Messer, Fred

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Middleton, G.

    Viant, S. P.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Milner, Major J.

    Walkden, A. G.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Montague, Frederick

    Walker, J.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Morley, Ralph

    Watkins, F. C.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    1892

    1893

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Williams, David (Swansea. East)

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Welsh. James (Paisley)

    Williams, Or. J. H. (Llanelly)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    West, F. R.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Ben Smith.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    White, H. G.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page 2, line 40, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that any money so borrowed shall be deemed to be a portion of the aggregate sum issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the grow-
    ing produce thereof, under the provisions of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section twenty-one of this Act."
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 259.

    Division No. 108.]

    AYES.

    [7.12 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Eillot, Major Walter E.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Albery, Irving James

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow,Cent'l)

    Falle, sir Bertram G.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Ferguson, sir John

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & otley)

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Peake, Captain Osbert

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Penny, Sir George

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Gritten, W. G. Howard

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Birchall, Major sir John Dearman

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Hamilton, sir George (liford)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. vansittart

    Hanbury, C.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut-Colonel E. A.

    Bracken, B.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

    Savery, S. S.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Walter

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Butler, R. A.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windser)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Christle, J. A.

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Thomson, Sir F.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Titchfield. Major the Marquees of

    Colvillee, Major D. J.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

    Train, J.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

    Lymington, Viscount

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. J. (I. of W.)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Cunilffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset.Yeovil)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Womersley, W. J.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Millar, J. D.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Mitchell. Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Eden, Captain Anthony'

    Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

    Captain Wallace and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Altchlson, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Arnott, John

    Adamson, W. M. (Stall., Cannock)

    Alexander. Rt Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Ammon, Charles George

    Attler, Clement Richard

    Aytes, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

    Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Palin, John Henry

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Palmer, E. T.

    Barr, James

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Bellamy, Albert

    Herriotts, J.

    Perry, S. F.

    Benn, Fit. Hon. Wedgwood

    Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth)

    Peters, Or. Sidney John

    Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hoillns, A.

    Phillips, Dr. Marlon

    Benson, G.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Potts, John S.

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Pybus, Percy John

    Blindell, James

    Isaacs, George

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Bowen, J. W.

    Jchn, William (Rhondda, West)

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Raynes, W. R.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Brooke, W.

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Rlley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

    Romeril, H. G.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Rowson, Guy

    Burgess, F. G.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    8uxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Kinley, J.

    Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Kirkwood, D.

    Sander, W. S.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Knight, Holford

    Sandham, E.

    Cape, Thomas

    Lang, Gordon

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Scott, James

    Charleson, H. C.

    Lathan, G.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Chafer, Daniel

    Law. Albert (Bolton)

    Scurr, John

    Clarke, J. S.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Shield, George William

    Compton, Joseph

    Leach, W.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Cove, William G.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Cowan, D. M.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Shinwell, E.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lees, J.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Daggar, George

    Lindley. Fred W.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Dallas, George

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lonqbottom, A. W.

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    Denman, Hon. R. O.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Devlin, Joseph

    Lunn, William

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Dukes, C.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Duncan, Charles

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Ede, James Chuter

    McElwee, A.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Snell, Harry

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    McGovorr J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    McKinlay, A.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Elmley, Viscount

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Freeman, Peter

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    McShane, John James

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Sullivan, J.

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Sutton, J. E.

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Mansfield, W.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    March, S.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

    Marcus, M.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Gill, T. H.

    Markham, S. F.

    Townend, A. E.

    Gillett, George M.

    Marley, J.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Glassey, A. E.

    Mathers, George

    Viant, S. P.

    Gossling, A. G.

    Matters, L. W.

    Walkdon, A. G.

    Gould, F.

    Maxton, James

    Walker, J.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark. Hamilton)

    Melville, Sir James

    Wallace, H. W.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Messer, Fred

    Watkins, F. C.

    Granville, E.

    Middleton, G.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Gray, Milner

    Mliner. Major J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Montague, Frederick

    Wellock, Wilfreo

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Morgan Dr. H. B.

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Morley, Ralph

    West, F. R.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Morrison. Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    White, H. G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mort, D. L.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Muff, G.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Williams, T.' (York, Don Valley)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Murnin, Hugh

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Harbord, A.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Hardie, George D.

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Noel-Buxton. Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Oldfield, J. R.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hastings, Dr. Somervllle

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Mr. Ben Smith and Mr. Thurtle.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blacklsy)

    Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to move, in page 3, line 4, after the word "corporation," to insert the words:
    "such accounts to be on a detailed costing system and to include a valuation of the corporation's farms."
    This is the first of two Amendments which stand in my name. I understand that the two Amendments are to be discussed together. My second Amendment is, in page 3, line 4, after the word "corporation," to insert the words:
    "such accounts to include a profit-and-loss account for each farm in the form required by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for the purpose of assessment of farming profits under Schedule D, and to include a valuation made at the commencement and end of each financial year by an independent valuer practising in the county in which the farm is situate, such valuer to be nominated by the president of the Surveyors' Institution."
    The Minister of Agriculture very kindly intimated during the Committee stage that he would be prepared to accept this Amendment, in principle, subject to our being able to agree between then and the Report stage on a form of words. I was deeply grateful to him, but, unfortunately, we have not been able to come to an agreement on a form of words. I have therefore put down the Amendment in a form of words which I think are suitable. If this experiment, which we believe will be a very expensive experiment, is to be of any practical use to agriculture it is of first rate importance that the accounts should be kept with the most complete accuracy and in a form which will enable anyone who is interested to find out how every branch of the corporation's activities are going on, and also find out every detail in regard to outgoing and ingoing. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendment.
    Anyone who has had experience of agriculture will know that farm accounts are worth less than nothing unless they include an annual valuation. Without an annual valuation it is quite impassible to say whether the result of any year's farming operation has been a loss or a profit. I therefore attach importance to the annual valuation. I have provided in my Amendment that the accounts shall be properly audited and shall be in the form required for Inland Revenue purposes. That is not an excessive requirement. Every business in the country is
    1898
    required to keep its accounts in a particular form, and it is not unreasonable to ask that this corporation, which is to operate on a vast scale with the taxpayers' money, should keep its accounts in proper form. The right hon. Gentleman and the Department have not been able to work out a complete agreement with me, not because they think my form of words is bad, but because the right hon. Gentleman is unwilling to insert it in the Bill. He is willing to say that he will put something of the kind in the Order, but he is unwilling to insert it in the Bill. I do not say that we do not trust the right hon. Gentleman, but he will not always be the Minister of Agriculture and it is very important that we should have a provision in black and white in the Bill which will make it impossible for anyone to wrap up or conceal anything in connection with the accounts.
    The right hon. Gentleman has represented to me that there are various reasons why he cannot put this particular form of words in the Bill. He suggested that the expense of valuation by an approved valuer might be very large. He said the corporation would be operating on a vast scale and the fee of the valuer would be very considerable and that this would be unnecessary expense. The larger the scale on which you are operating the more essential it is that there should be strict accuracy in your accounts, and that your valuation should be absolutely reliable.
    The right hon. Gentleman, in a letter which he sent to me, says:
    "I feel that the words 'each farm' suggested in your proposed Amendment, might lead to difficulty. It may very well be that, in addition to one or more large-scale farms, the corporation, as a result of purchasing a whole estate, might have temporarily or permanently on their hands, various outlying small pieces of land, perhaps only amounting to a few acres, which might he let off as farms or as accommodation land or as smallholdings. In such a case it would obviously be impracticable to require the corporation to produce a separate account for each piece of land of such a small acreage."
    I think the words of my Amendment would meet the difficulty. This is a point of very great importance. It is absolutely essential that there should be no possibility that the corporation will be able to write off a large sum by way of

    1899
    sundries. It is very essential that we should know the results of its operations on each and every piece of land and that it should not be able to conceal a possible loss by dismissing it as loss on various small and more or less temporary transactions. I hope the House will insist upon the Amendment. Hon. Members opposite who are interested in the Bill hope that the results of the operations of the corporation will be such as to teach the farmers how to work and to give them a valuable lesson how to carry on their operations properly. We believe that the far more probable result will be the loss of a very large sum of the taxpayers' money and the throwing of a very considerable number of agricultural labourers out of work.
    Whichever view we take, whether we believe the corporation will be a success or whether we believe that it will be a failure, we surely have all the same interest in that we desire that the accounts shall be absolutely accurate and that we shall make sure that the nation will from year to year get a true account of the results of the corporation's operations. For that reason I press the Amendment. We ask for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that is not an unreasonable request. If the right hon. Gentleman is not willing to meet us, we may be forced to the conclusion that he apprehends that he will have something to conceal.
    Sir D. NEWTON: Many of us on this side of the House attach great importance to this Amendment. It is essential not only that detailed accounts should be kept of each branch of this great experiment but that a proper valuation should be made showing the position of the scheme from year to year. If the experiment is going to be of any substantial value to the industry of agriculture it is necessary that the figures submitted to us shall be unchallenged and unchallengable, and that result can only be attained by a precise and accurate system of accounting. We fully recognise the difficulty of prescribing any exact form in which these accounts should be kept, but at the same time we think some words should be incorporated in the Bill to make it perfectly clear
    1900
    to this new corporation that they must by statute submit accounts annually and in a proper form.
    This experiment is one which will be watched with close interest by the whole farming community, and by the taxpayers with equal interest. These farms are to be established on model lines and new and expensive machinery on a scale hitherto unknown in this country will be used. I suggest that a valuation should be made at the commencement and close of each year and that the accounts should be made up to Ladyday of each year, thus ensuring that the greater portion of the produce of the preceding year will have been realised instead of being in the form of a valuation. If there is more than one experimental farm then the same basis of valuation should be adopted in regard to each farm so that we can compare accurately the results obtained on each farm. So far as there will be outlying offlands they should also be brought into the valuation and the result properly shown. The person to be responsible for the valuation is a very important point, and I feel that some surveyor of outstanding ability and of general acceptability for his knowledge and qualifications should be appointed, possibly under the nomination of the National Farmers Union from the members of the Surveyors Institute.
    In drawing attention by this Amendment to this matter we are only following precedent. Under the Small Holdings (Colonies) Act, 1916 and 1918, a large number of experimental farms were established and some 11,900 acres were farmed in six separate settlements. A system of accountancy was devised by which it was found possible to compare the results of one settlement with the results of the other settlements. At first there was some difficulty in the matter, but a sub-committee was appointed to consider and report as to the best method of valuing assets for the purpose of separate farm trading accounts. That report gives us some valuable data. It pointed out the need of a standard basis of valuation, of standard values, so that you should not value your working stock, your horses, at one value one year and then appreciate or depreciate them to a large extent the next year, possibly following market values, and upsetting

    1901
    the results of one year as compared with another year. I commend this report to the attention of the Minister, and perhaps it will be all the more acceptable to him as the Chairman was Mr. Orwin, whose suggestions I understand he is now following in this Bill. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will accept the Amendment. If his experiment proves satisfactory he need not be afraid of giving us all the figures and if it does not prove satisfactory then it is fair that the taxpayers should know, so that we could wind up any scheme which is unworkable and unprofitable as soon as possible, cut our losses, and close down an unsatisfactory system of farming.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: I take no exception to the way in which the Noble Lord the Member for Derbyshire Western (Marquess of Hartington) and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) have presented their case. Indeed, it is a case which the Government view with considerable sympathy. The Minister of Agriculture, in the course of the discussion upstairs, was so convinced that a case had been made out for something to be done in this matter that he promised to consult the Noble Lord before the Report stage to see whether some agreement could be reached. The difficulty of the Minister of Agriculture is to find a precise form of words to insert in the Bill—I will say in a moment what my right hon. Friend is prepared to pledge himself to do—beyond which he could not move. The hon. Member for Cambridge recommended that the accounts should be made up from Ladyday to Ladyday. That is not a term in use north of the border and it would be inadmissible so far as the operations of the corporation are concerned in Scotland.
    Sir D. NEWTON: The 31st of March.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: I know, but I merely put it that there are some difficulties. Certain difficulties arise in the form of words used by the Noble Lord. They might suit the Noble Lord and his friends south of the border, but they would be entirely inadmissible in our system north of the border. With that preliminary explanation, I repeat that the Minister is desirous of meeting hon. Members in every possible way on this matter. He is exceedingly desirous of having the
    1902
    accounts presented annually in such a way as will give a true account of the operations of the corporation. It is to our interests to have this experiment so conducted that the results will be clear to the nation. If the results are going to be satisfactory then clearly they should be expressed in such a way as will leave no doubt whatever as to their financial success. While the Minister of Agriculture finds it difficult to get an exact form of words, he is prepared to prescribe in the Order, which he must make, that the accounts of the corporation shall include a profit and loss account similar to that required by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for Income Tax purposes. He is prepared to meet the Noble Lord on that point. Then he is also prepared to meet him to this extent, that the accounts shall include a valuation at the commencement and end of each farming year, and to proceed on that basis every year. That is the normal procedure, and I think meets the Noble Lord's point. He is also prepared to insert in the Order a stipulation that in the case of any large-scale farming operations conducted by the corporation as a separate unit the accounts of these operations shall be kept separately and presented separately, and laid before Parliament in that form.
    The one difficulty which appears to remain is this. The Noble Lord and his friends are desirous of having the accounts for every farm large or small kept separately. If the corporation acquire two or three very small farms they would be required by the Amendment to keep separate accounts for each of these small farms, even if they only held them for a short period of the year while the small farm was being incorporated in the larger farm. I am sure the Noble Lord and his friends do not desire to be unreasonable on this matter or to insert in the Bill a form of words which would unduly hamper the operations of the corporation and make the venture ridiculous. That is the pledge which the Minister of Agriculture has authorised me to give. We are prepared to put this stipulation in the Order. I trust it will meet the wishes of hon. Members in every part of the House. It will ensure that the accounts of the corporation will be presented annually to Parliament not only in an intelligible way but in a complete way.
    Sir D. NEWTON: Are we to understand that the accounts will be given in as an informative a form as in the Report of the Smallholdings (Colonies) Act, 1918? There each block of land is set out and the valuations are given separately. They go into considerable detail and show all the receipts and expenditure.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: On a matter of this kind I would rather not be pressed for a further pledge than the one I have given. Whether the accounts of the corporation could be, or ought to be, presented in precisely the form to which the hon. Member for Cambridge has referred I am not prepared to say. What I do say is that my right hon. Friend is prepared to meet the three essential planks in what I may call the Noble Lord's programme, and subject to the corporation not being compelled to keep separate accounts for every small farm it may acquire for a portion of a year and not being unduly hampered by restrictions, I hope the Noble Lord will agree that the Government is prepared to meet the proposition put forward in Committee upstairs. I hope he will be satisfied with that promise.
    Major ELLIOT: The Minister puts us rather in a difficulty. He explained that he could not do what the Noble Lord had asked to be done, and then he went on to say that he could do it, and that he was quite prepared to get a form of words which would cover all the points raised.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The main planks of the proposal.
    Major ELLIOT: A form of words which will cover the main planks of the Noble Lord's proposal. Surely if the Minister is prepared to do all that by Order, he is prepared to go even further and do it in the Bill. Why not in the Bill? As a sign of grace he could accept the Amendment, which does not go into the details of which he complained. There is no mention of Lady-day in the Amendment, no mention of a form of accounts similar to that of the smallholdings accounts of 1916–1918. The Amendment merely asks that the accounts should be kept as they would be presented to the Inland Revenue, that there should be an independent valuation at the beginning
    1904
    and end of the year, and there were two other points which the Minister did not mention but to which he would no doubt agree.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Since I am asked a question, let me say that the proposals of the Amendment might land us in difficulties. There might be a county in the Highlands of Scotland where it would be difficult to find a valuer on the lines specifically set forth in the Amendment. It is precisely to guard the Government and the Minister and the corporation against the unfortunate consequences that might come from giving a precise guarantee on these points, that the Minister would prefer to operate through an Order. The previous Government, on a very difficult and complex matter similar to this, had to proceed by Order and indeed we had to get adaptations of such Orders from this House as lately as last night.
    Major ELLIOT: On an Amendment which he accepted previously, the Minister indicated roughly the general lines on which he would operate in this matter. We do not make any objections to his operating by Order in the case of the Scottish sub-Committee, but here the Minister can surely appreciate the desirability of what has been urged. If the thing is to be defined, let it be defined now. This is the last occasion on which the House will have an opportunity of amending the Bill. The Minister has given a pledge, which we naturally accept, but that pledge is in the form of a speech, and we all know that speeches recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT have no binding power on the Courts or on successive Ministers. The form of words which the Minister says cannot be found now will have to be found somehow or other. Let us have them in the Bill. The Minister says that all these things are so difficult that he is not able to find any form of words now, but that he has perfect confidence in his ability to find a form in a very short time. He is really asking us to doubt his ingenuity in a way that we are not prepared to do. The Minister is a skilled worker with Bills and words. If anyone can find a formula which will meet the case let him apply himself to it now. This is the best time to do it. Then the other place will have before it a fair statement on the face of the Bill

    1905
    of what it is that the Minister desires to do, and what are the general lines on which the Minister is to operate.
    Lieut. - Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: I cannot understand anyone saying that it is impassible to prepare accounts in such a way as will satisfy the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. I unfortunately, for my sins, have knowledge of practical farming and of the results of it. I have found that the first thing one has to do, if one wants to know the results of the working of a farm, is to have valuations made, to ascertain the expenses of each farm, to have a debit on the one side and a credit on the other. I should have thought that the least the Government could do would be to prepare accounts in the same way as accounts are prepared for the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. We have been told that it is impossible to incorporate this proposal in the Bill. With all the draftsmen that they have, and all the expert advice available, do the Government say that it is impossible to find any form of words which will carry out what is admitted by the Government to be something desirable? We are told that there is a difference between the North and the South. We know that there are slight differences, but because of them are we to be told that it is impossible to prepare a proper debit and credit account and to have valuations made, as would be done in an ordinary business?
    There is no question of our doubting the integrity of the Minister of Agriculture. No one who knows him would question the reliability of what he says. But his words do not commit even his Government, let alone any successive Government. If words are put into the Bill they will be of value in any case that comes before the court. If any successive Government or Minister did not carry out what the Bill provided it would be possible to say to him, "There is the obligation and you have to carry it out." The Government admit the advisability of the suggestions of the Noble Lord, and yet they say that they are frightened to put those suggestions into the Bill because their hands may be tied. I am sorry to press the matter, but it seems to me that there must be some other reason for not putting this pro-
    1906
    posal into black and white. Are the Government frightened that these experiments will be anything but a boundless success for the taxpayer and the country and for the agricultural industry? We have been told that agriculture is to be put on its legs again, and to be taken out of the slough of despond in which it has been for many years, and that by the action of a Labour Government everything is to be lifted up in such a way that people will say, "Why has there not been success before in this large-scale farming?" My own opinion is that the Government are not quite satisfied that their experiment will be a success. They fear our having the figures and of our being able to put our finger on the spot and say, "That is the result." If the Government do not accept the Amendment, I hope that it will be pressed to a Division. We want to have the matter decided.
    Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I would like to emphasise the request of my Noble Friend and of the last speaker for the publication of these accounts. I was pleased to hear that the Minister considered sympathetically the points raised by my Noble Friend. I recognise the necessity of the accounts in the public interest, but chiefly I see clearly how the accounts are essential in order to fulfil the purpose for which the Bill is brought forward. The Minister has assented to the request for a valuation at the beginning and at the end of the time. Only one valuation is necessary—a valuation at the end of the time. It is not a difficult thing to have accounts kept for each separate farming operation. I have had it done myself; accounts were kept on one farm separate from the accounts on another farm; profit and loss accounts were given for each farm separately. The Amendment states that the accounts should be on a detailed costings system. I want to emphasise that point. There is no doubt that the primary object of the Bill is to carry out these large-scale farming operations for an experimental purpose, because of the value that will be to the farming community.
    8.0 p.m.
    The British farmer has very little to learn in the technique of his occupation; he knows his job. But I am prepared to admit that the British farmer is rather backward in the way in which he keeps

    1907
    his accounts. He has something to learn on that side of the industry. I do not think that we can emphasise too much the value to the farmer of a knowledge of the coatings of his crops. We have before us at present the question of the production of wheat. Accounts of the costings of the production of wheat differ in different places. As an illustration, may I say that I once asked a constituent of mine what it cost him to grow an acre of wheat. He told me that ploughing and labour cost so much, that farmyard manure cost so much, and that other items cost so much. Then on the other side he told me that his wheat made so much, and, when I asked him what about the straw, he said he did not value the straw because it had gone back into farmyard manure. I reminded him that in the costings he had already paid for the straw in the form of farmyard manure. That illustration shows that the agricultural community is not fully conversant with the manner in which these costings should be made.
    There is also the question of costings in relation to the sugar-beet industry. The British farmer does not know the exact cost of growing an acre of sugar beet. If it had that knowledge he might be more amenable to accepting certain prices than he is at present. If any substantial good to the agricultural community is to come from this Bill it will come from the knowledge given to the farmers generally, of what it costs to grow various crops and the profits and losses involved in various agricultural operations. For that reason I appeal to the Minister to insert words which will ensure this valuable addition to the knowledge of the farming community.
    Viscount WOLMER: I cannot understand what difficulty the Government find in regard to my Noble Friend's Amendment. I gathered from the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland that on all essential points he desires to meet us. But when the hon. Gentleman says that he can find a form of words for an Order but cannot find a form of words for the Bill, that excuse is a little too thin for us to accept. We wish for these words in the Bill because this large-scale farming experiment cannot be of any value to agriculture unless we get detailed busi-
    1908
    ness accounts of all the operations. I should like to make this complaint against the Government—that they will not make the Bill square with their speeches. They have told us that they are not going in for the letting of land, but they will not put it in the Bill. They have told us that they are not going to borrow vast sums, but they will not put it in the Bill. They have told us that they are going to keep accounts, but they will not put it in the Bill.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON indicated dissent.
    Viscount WOLMER: Well, they will not do so in a form which will ensure the only type of account that can be of any use to the farmers. My Noble Friend is asking that there should be a separate valuation of each farm and separate accounts for each farm in the form required by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for the purpose of assessing farm profits under Schedule D. Nothing could be fairer than that. Every farmer has to submit accounts which will satisfy the Commissioners of Inland Revenue on these points. Here we have this great farming corporation which is to be a model to the whole agricultural community, and we are merely asking them to publish their accounts in that form. In order that those accounts should be valid, they must be based on an annual valuation. I understood the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to say that, if an experiment is being conducted in a remote part of the Highlands, the cost of an independent valuer would be excessive; but, if the corporation are going to conduct their experiments in such inaccessible spots as to entail a prohibitive cost for a valuer, then how many farmers are likely to go, themselves, to inspect that experimental farm? The more inaccessible the spot the more necessary that there should be detailed accounts in order that those who have not the time or money to see the experiment for themselves may be able to obtain as much information as possible about it.
    We are embarking on an expenditure of anything up to £2,000,000 or more by this Clause, for the conduct of what is, according to the Minister, a perfectly new type of agricultural experiment, and surely it is the height of folly not to insist in the Bill itself that the fullest

    1909
    accounts should be annually published and that those accounts should be based on an independent valuation which the farmers of the country will accept as unbiased. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes this experiment to be of benefit, if he wishes the farmers to learn from it, if he wishes them to go on the advice that this corporation is able to give, then surely he must agree that the farmers ought to have confidence in the valuation on which the accounts are based. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to ask for an independent valuation. That is all we are asking in this Amendment, and the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to give any valid reason for not accepting these words.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: Before the Minister replies, may I put a question? The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has been extremely conciliatory, and I am grateful to him for having gone so far to meet me, but he indicated that the real difficulty was that he could not undertake to have these accounts in respect of each and every small piece of land. If it is proposed only to leave out small pieces of land, it may well be that I can accept that proposal, but when I was corresponding with the Minister, the right hon. Gentleman's definition of a small piece of land was one in which the tenants capital did not exceed £10,000. If the right hon. Gentleman proposes to adhere to that limit and to say that strict accounts need not be kept for any piece of land in which the tenants capital does not exceed £10,000, then I could not possibly accept that proposal. Perhaps in his reply the right hon. Gentleman will explain whether he still adheres to that particular definition?
    Dr. ADDISON: I shall be glad to refer to the particular figures mentioned in the letter to the Noble Lord, but I wish at the moment to say something with regard to the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer). To listen to that speech, one would imagine that there was nothing in the Bill about accounts. But the Clause says that the order is to provide for the keeping of the accounts of the corporation for the annual audit of those accounts, and for the making of an annual report to the Minister and Secretary of State showing such audited accounts of the corporation as may be specified in the order.
    Viscount WOLMER: What is the right hon. Gentleman reading from?
    Dr. ADDISON: I am reading from the Bill.
    Viscount WOLMER: I thought the right hon. Gentleman said that he was reading from an order.
    Dr. ADDISON: No. I wish the Noble Lord would acquaint himself with the Bill. It contains fuller requirements as to accounts than I can find in any similar Bill.
    Mr. GUINNESS: There has not been a similar Bill.
    Dr. ADDISON: There have been Bills connected with land which involved much greater expenditure. This particular Clause relates to the accounts of a corporation with £1,000,000 capital—it may borrow a bit more it is true—but the smallholdings operations of the county councils involve many more millions. Many millions have been invested in this country in respect of smallholdings. The Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916, is one to which I never heard any objection urged by the Noble Lord the member for Aldershot, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Guinness) never thought of altering it when he was in office, and, as he knows, it works perfectly well. Section 10 of that Act merely provides that the board appointed under it shall present to Parliament an annual report of their proceedings under the Act, which shall include a statement of the financial position of each of the Colonies. That is nothing like as detailed as the requirements in this Bill.
    I am prepared to give the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) this assurance, which I am sure he will accept—that we will put in the Order that the corporation's accounts shall include a profit and loss account, and that the accounts shall include valuations made at the commencement and at the end of each farming year, on the same basis each year. I am prepared to undertake that in so far as any large-scale farming operations of the corporation are conducted as separate units—I say nothing about the size—the accounts in respect of each unit will be kept separately and so laid before Parliament. I do not specify all these

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    other details which have been mentioned, but the Bill itself contains more generous and detailed requirements for the presentation of accounts than any other Bill of this kind that I can find.
    Mr. GUINNESS: Does the right hon. Gentleman concede an independent valuation?
    Dr. ADDISON: No, I do not. I say, of course, that we should have a trustworthy valuation, and I have never yet heard anybody call in question the valuers who would ordinarily be employed. But I am not prepared to accept the insertion of the word "independent" whatever it may mean. We certainly want a proper valuation, and, if anybody hereafter says that this is not a fair valuation, I shall be prepared to consider steps to secure a revised valuation.
    Mr. GUINNESS: But it is a very usual provision, I think, in connection with Income Tax that valuations should be made by some outside experts—in this case neither by an official of the Ministry nor by anyone connected with the corporation.
    Dr. ADDISON: These are farming accounts. However, I will look into that subject. I am not going to commit myself at this time to the word "independent." That would not be reasonable, but I will, as I say, look into it, in an entirely friendly way before the Order is drafted, and I will consult the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire if he likes. It would be exceptional and unreasonable, however, to put all these details which have been mentioned into the governing Act. I hope that with that explanation and that undertaking the House will allow us to get on to the next Amendment.
    Major G. DAVIES: The Minister has largely repeated the remarks made in his absence by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, and I confess to having listened to those very conciliatory statements with a considerable degree of satisfaction. No one has suggested that the Minister should be tied down to some cast-iron form of accounts which may get out of date, but the principle that he is prepared to adopt in the Order is one which attaches to all forms of accounts, and the point at issue is whether an
    1912
    agreed form of words or any form of words shall be put in the Bill or left, at the discretion of the Minister, to be put in an Order. That is the point that was stressed upstairs and that we stress again now, and that is the point on which the Minister has found himself unable to meet us. That is a matter of great regret. The Minister quoted other Acts of Parliament, such as that dealing with local authorities and smallholdings, and said the money involved in those is greater than in his Bill, but the county councils and local authorities are spending the ratepayers' or the taxpayers' money in this matter for an entirely different purpose.
    The whole point of this Measure is the conviction which it is going to bring to the community and the proof of its proposal to go into this experiment. There are three kinds of people who need to be satisfied as to the way in which this experiment is to be conducted. First, there are the Members of this House, who are responsible for having put the Measure on the Statute Book and the charge on the Exchequer, and, secondly—and these have not been touched on yet—there are those who are actually to be engaged in the work, because there is really only one form of accounts that is needed, and that is that those engaged in the operation may know exactly where they are. The Minister has refused to agree that a farm which involves a capital of less than £10,000, I understand—
    Dr. ADDISON: That is not so. The hon. and gallant Member could not have heard my undertaking.
    Major DAVIES: What I want to say is that even on a small farm the keeping of accurate accounts is absolutely vital. I have had the questionable privilege of having had an accountant's training, and in later years I have applied it definitely to the form of my own personal farming, and I know how difficult the application of one's ordinary ideas of accounting is to farming operations. How are you to regard calves? Are they coupons on debenture bonds, or are they unearned increment, or are they profit-taking on a bull market? All those are difficulties that do not come up in other lines of accounting. We are quite satisfied that the Minister is going to see in his Order that satisfactory accounts are to be provided, but our point is that he has given

    1913
    us no reason, other than saying he could not meet us on words, why this provision should not be put as one of the statutory provisions in the Bill.
    We stress that because, as has been pointed out already—jocularly, but I do so quite seriously—never before has a Bill like this been presented to Parliament, and never before has any Minister of Agriculture had such wide ideas of leaving behind precedents and going out into the unknown—[Interruption]—I do not decry it for that purpose—but going out into the unknown with a good deal of the taxpayers' money. Those who have had experience of farming know how often their best hopes go astray, and, however optimistic we may be, we want to be able to know just where the mistakes are. The mistakes primarily are financial, because one of the reasons this kind of farming operation has not been adopted hitherto has been that farmers have not seen their way to make a "go" of it.
    The Minister is going to show how it can be done, and it is important that there should be complete satisfaction, not only to the Members of this House, and not only to those employés and others who are going to put the experiment into operation, but to those also in whose interests it is primarily being started, namely, the farming community in general, and not only the men occupied in farming, but the theoretical agriculturists connected with our research stations and so forth. If you are going to carry conviction to those people, your Measure has to be bullet-proof, criticism-proof. We are trying to make it so, in this Amendment, and to include definitely in the provisions of the Bill those measures which the Minister himself has indicated that he regards as common-sense measures and will include in his Order.
    I maintain that the Minister, while he has gone a long way to satisfy us as to what he, in his individual capacity, proposes to do by Order, has not at all proved to us that our request to have that incorporated in the Bill is in-treasonable. He has shown himself on this particular proposal so much more reasonable than on many other proposals that I have tried to bring to his attention that I hope that, even at this eleventh hour, having now, I suppose, refreshed himself—
    Dr. ADDISON: No, I have not.
    Major DAVIES: Then before he does so, I hope he will see his way to think over this matter again before the Measure goes to another place.
    Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: I understand the right hon. Gentleman has undertaken to do two things with regard to the accounts of these large-scale farms. He has agreed to have an annual valuation, and he has agreed to have kept and presented an ordinary trading profit-and loss account. Those two things are absolutely essential in any event, but the Amendment of the Noble Lord is directed to something quite different from that, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us some reply in relation to the terms of the Noble Lord's Amendment. The Noble Lord asks for such accounts to be on a detailed costing system. A costing system is something utterly different from the ordinary trading profit-and-loss account for a valuation, as the right hon. Gentleman certainly knows, but this large-scale farming in which he is going to indulge is a complete experiment, as he himself will undoubtedly admit. For that reason, we want to be able as farmers to learn as much from that experiment as we possibly can.
    We want, in the first instance, to be able to learn whether a great corporation backed by the taxpayers' money can farm more successfully than can an individual. That is one of the results to which we shall look with a good deal of interest. But there are many other things beside that. There is much that we ought to be able to learn as regards details from this large-scale farming experiment, and one of those things, above all, will be coatings. We should like to know, for instance, whether under this large-scale farming it is possible to grow wheat on a 100-acre field at so much per quarter. That is what we want to know, and I think it is right to say that if the taxpayers are asked to put up the money for this huge experiment on the scale demanded by this Bill, the taxpayers are also entitled to say, "Do let us learn the results of the operations which have been carried out with this money." The right hon. Gentleman and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland have both completely ignored the real point of the Noble Lord's Amendment.
    Mr. LEES: On a point of Order. Which Amendment are we taking? In the second Amendment there is no mention of detailed costings.
    Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): It is understood that the one discussion should cover both Amendments, the first of which has been moved.
    Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: I was referring to the first Amendment, and was alluding particularly to the words "detailed costing system." The point I was making was that the right hon. Gentleman and the Under-Secretary of State completely ignored them. I am not going to express an opinion as to whether it is probable that large-scale farming will be a success, but I am certain that a great deal could be learned from it if costing accounts are kept; in fact, it would probably be the most valuable part of the whole scheme. I do not say that the knowledge may not be bought too highly from the taxpayers' point of view, but, be that as it may, let us really have some costing account kept in which the ordinary farmers may be able to profit. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give some reply on this point, for this scheme is to be a demonstration to the rest of the world as to how things might and ought to be done. He cannot desire to withhold these details from those for whom he is desirous of making the demonstration. May I ask him, therefore, to address himself to this point, and to go one stage further, and in the order which he prescribes, lay it down that, in addition to a valuation being taken, and a profit and loss account kept, he will ordain that in the ease of the large-scale units there shall be kept accounts on a proper costing system.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: The Minister of Agriculture, in the reply which he has made, seems to have completely misread the intention of this Amendment. This is to be an experiment, and we hope that it is to be an instructional experiment, in large-scale farming. If the experiment is to be of any value as instruction, it is essential that all the costings should be kept in the most minute detail. It should be open to anybody to learn from the experiment the exact cost of every agricultural process on the particular types of land which
    1916
    the Corporation will operate. I agree that it will cost more, but it will be worth it. The system of costing is undoubtedly costly, but it has proved in many industrial undertakings to be of very great value. Up to the present, there has not been an opportunity of conducting experiments on anything like this scale, and it will be a great pity if the opportunity of reducing every agricultural process down to pounds, shillings and pence is lost.
    Of course, accounts will naturally be kept; it will be impossible for an undertaking of this kind to carry on without keeping accounts, and having them properly audited and so on; but that is not enough if we are to reap the full value of this experiment from its instructional point of view. We must go into it in more detail. For example, farming accounts such as are habitually submitted to the Inland Revenue are not sufficient. We want something much more minute and detailed. Of course, the valuation will be undertaken; that will be necessary for the corporation to know what is the position of the concern financially. I should like to suggest, for example, that the valuation of the corporation's farm should be based on something like this: Cost price, plus expenditure on re-construction, equipment and plant, less depreciation, and, finally, a check on the valuation by the valuer of similar land in the neighbourhood. I am sure that these accounts will be kept, but that is not the point of the Amendment. We want something which will give instruction to the farmers of the country, and will let them know the result of the experiment which this corporation is conducting. It is only by keeping the most minute and detailed costing accounts that we can reap the benefit of this great experiment.
    Sir J. LAMB: Two sections of people are interested in this matter. The first are the agriculturists. If these farms are to be of any value, they must be farms from which the farmer will have the opportunity of learning something. It may be a demonstration to prove what is a success, and it may be equally valuable to prove what is not a success, and so save him from wasting money on something which has been proved to be a failure. If this large-scale farming is to be of any value to the farmer, he must

    1917
    whatever he is being told about it is sound practical advice which is going to help him. Agriculture is very different from other industries. We use the word "agriculture" as meaning an industry, but it is really a combination of industries, each of which is a separate entity, and unless we have this costing system, we do not know which section of the operations of a large-scale farm is paying and which is failing. Without costing we shall not know whether it is the dairying or the arable or some other section which is making a profit. Unless we have costing which will enable the farmer to analyse the accounts and see what sections are paying and which are losing, the experiment will he of no value whatever.
    There is another point of view. May I remind the House what I said on previous occasions, because it is a serious matter when a Government Department are to be allowed to go into operations of this description? I said:
    "The Ministry has held land, and the land has been under the control of the Ministry, on 10 different estates, five of which are still in hand and five of which have been disposed of."
    I take it that the five were disposed of because they were not profitable, and in order to eliminate a certain amount of loss.
    "They still have in hand 13,603 acres, and they have disposed of 8,073 acres. The capital doss on the 10 estates has been £80,097, and there has been a profit of £18,983, leaving a net loss on those 10 estates of £61,114. The only profit that they made on these estates"—
    I should like the House to notice this particular point—
    "was a profit which they made out of the re-sale of land."
    It was not from farming operations, but from the re-sale of land which was bought for farming purposes and disposed of for building purposes or some other reasons.
    "I do not think the present Government will consider that it is the best form of agriculture to buy land and resell it at a profit. The revenue account of these 10 estates showed that the losses on the farms were £257,643 and on the estates of £292,038, being a net loss of £549,681."
    Dr. ADDISON: I am sorry to intervene in the reminiscences the hon. Gentleman is giving us as to the exploits of previous Governments, but I suggest that
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    they have nothing to do with this Amendment.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I was following the argument of the hon. Member to see if I could link it on to detailed costings.
    Sir J. LAMB: I can link it up by showing how necessary it is to have these detailed costings in order to reveal where losses are made. The public have some, interest in this matter as well as agriculturists. If the public allow large sums of money to be used, it is in their interests that costing accounts should be kept to see where the losses are incurred. I have little to add. [Interruption.] It may be unpalatable to some hon. Members opposite to hear these truths. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cut it short!"] It is not necessary to cut it short. The figures I have given were supplied by the Minister in answer to inquiries in this House, and they are official figures which can be verified. I am making no statement which is not correct. The concluding sentence is this:
    "To reduce it to a much smaller figure, the loss per acre worked out at £28 3s. 6d."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th November, 1930; col. 1951, Vol. 244.]
    Where did that loss occur? No doubt we shall have accounts which will show the loss per acre, but they will not show where the loss occurred, and unless we can have costing accounts to show that and to indicate what activities should be eliminated in the hope of making profit the accounts will be practically worthless, from two points of view. In the first place, they will not have the confidence of the farmer, because he will want to be quite sure that the experiments are sound financially before he will copy the example; and, in the second place, it is in the public interest that we should have this safeguard.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: I am surprised that the Minister refuses to put these words into the Bill, because he has shown us quite clearly that he really does realise how important it is to have proper accounts, both for the sake of the experiments and for the sake of the public. While he does not wish to have these words in the Bill he asks us to rely on Orders which will be made by the Department. Personally I very much dislike having to rely on bureaucrats, especially when we are dealing with large

    1919
    sums of money, and I particularly dislike giving these powers to the Minister of Agriculture, because he is a great bureaucrat. The Ministry of Agriculture is rapidly becoming the most bureaucratic Ministry in the country, nearly as bad as the Ministry of Health. We do not wish to have any greater development of bureaucracy than is absolutely necessary, and for that reason I object to giving powers to the Minister, either to the present Minister or to any other Minister to make these Orders.
    This corporation is to be given £1,000,000 from the Treasury, and, in addition, it is to be allowed to borrow practically as much more as it wants, or at least as much as it can get—the Minister having refused to agree to any limit—and it may have £2,000,000 to account for. Therefore, it is our bounden duty to see that every precaution is taken under the terms of the Bill itself that proper accounts shall be rendered. The Minister does not seem to be prepared to accept any Amendment to-day. The first Amendment we put forward was one designed to prevent this experiment in large-scale farming developing into a scheme for nationalisation of the land; the second Amendment was to limit the expenditure—not to cramp the work of the corporation, but simply to limit it; and this third Amendment is designed simply to make sure that we know how the money is spent. Unless the Minister is afraid to let the country know how the money is spent he ought to accept the Amendment, and I trust that even now he will reconsider his decision.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I recognise that the Minister has made us a conciliatory reply and appears anxious to meet our difficulties, but it is not satisfactory to us that this matter should be left to be regulated by a Departmental Order, because the whole justification for this large-scale farming is that it is to teach a lesson to British agriculturists, and the whole essence of that lesson must depend on the accounts. Although I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman is anxious to give us this information, and although I do not wish in any way to minimise the importance of his personal assurance as to what he will put in the Order, we must recognise that there is a very heavy mor-
    1920
    tality amongst Ministers of Agriculture. I will not venture to say how many there have been since the Board of Agriculture was set up, but generally they do not last very long, and it is much more satisfactory, and, indeed, essential, to have this provision in the Statute itself instead of leaving it to be the subject of a Departmental Order.
    Even if we were content to take the risk the right hon. Gentleman, for all he wishes to meet us, has not satisfied us on two points. First, we attach great importance to profit-and-loss accounts. That is the meaning of my Noble Friend's second Amendment, for the assessment of farming profits under Schedule D. If these accounts are to have any practical value for farmers there should be not only costings, but a profit-and-loss account, and I cannot understand what difficulty the Minister feels over an obligation to publish, or at any rate receive, profit-and-loss accounts from the Agricultural Land Corporation. The other point is that we need separate accounts. We understand that the Minister has very ambitious expectations, that he proposes to range over all agricultural undertakings from large-scale cereal farming to a huge experiment in sheep farming on the mountains of Wales and Scotland. If all the accounts are to be lumped together they will be absolutely meaningless, and it is essential that they should be separated, and that the various undertakings should be easily distinguished.
    The Amendments we are moving now are only preliminary to the important issue which we shall try to raise, with Mr. Speaker's consent, on Sub-section (6). That Sub-section imposes upon the Minister the obligation to make an annual report, including a summary of the accounts. That does not satisfy us, we want furl accounts, but, of course, we cannot get full accounts from the Ministry unless the Minister has had full accounts from the corporation. I want to say at this stage that this is only one part of our anxiety, and we must press the Amendment of my Noble Friend because it is only if the Minister is provided with the accounts in the necessary detail that it will be possible for him to render the adequate summary which will satisfy the conditions of the Statute.

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    Full accounts are necessary if large-scale farming is to render any useful account of its operations for the guidance of British agriculture.
    Sir SAMUEL CHAPMAN: This Debate seems to have been entirely confined to the representatives of agricultural constituencies, but I think the voice of the urban districts should be raised. This is not only a question which affects agriculturists, but it affects every one of us. I happen to represent a great and important city, and I desire, on behalf of the electors of the city of Edinburgh, to impress upon the Minister of Agriculture the necessity of letting us have full and perfect accounts in order that we may see if farming pays. I have studied with great interest the election address of the Prime Minister, who announced that the Government were going to bring in a Bill to make farming pay, and I suppose that this is the Bill which has been promised. If that be so, let us have full accounts in order to see if farming does pay.
    I live on the land, and I mix with agriculturists. I know the hilts of Scotland very well, almost as well as the Minister himself, and he knows that at the present moment farming does not pay. The greatest lesson which the right hon. Gentleman can set for Scotland is to show how farming can pay. If we are not supplied with detailed accounts, and if we cannot examine them minutely, they will not be of any service. I am aware that there will have to be a start, and the Government will have to keep a counting-house staff. You cannot have an odd set of books here and there, because minute details will have to be gone into. The farmers of West Fife will want to know how the Secretary of State for Scotland is making a 2,000-acre farm pay. Probably the right hon. Gentleman will say, "Come into my Rolls Royce, and I will take you and show you the books, and then you will see how it does pay." We want every item recorded in order that we may see whether farming pays.
    Mr. MARKHAM: You have not read the Bill.
    Sir S. CHAPMAN: We want this question placed on the same lines as businesses in the City of London or anywhere else. The Minister of Agriculture says,
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    "Let us get a move on." I say, "Let us get a move on with regard to agricultural accounts, and let us have them in the form in which accounts are kept in the City of London." We want all the details. We want to know the cost of the seed from the time it is sown to the time it is marketed. We want every item which will show where mistakes have been made, and in such a form that any business man can follow the great examples which the Minister of Agriculture is going to set up. If farming does not pay, the Secretary of State for Scotland will not get any glory, but, if it does pay, he will be looked upon as one of the great leaders of agriculture and classed with Mr. Robert Bakewell, alongside whom my great grandfather worked in the breeding of Leicestershire sheep. Minute farming accounts are as important as city accounts, and, if they are carefully kept, the right hon. Gentleman will be able to show whether farming pays or not.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Sub-section (6) of this Clause is very important in discussing the question of accounts. I suppose that it will not be denied that in theory, at any rate, the Minister of Agriculture is responsible to this House, and that he can be blamed for anything that goes wrong. In Sub-section (6) it is provided that:
    "The Minister and Secretary of State AO make to Parliament not later than the first day of May an annual report as to the operations of the corporation, including a summary of the accounts of the corporation for the last preceding year."
    We are only to be allowed a summary of such accounts as the Minister prescribes should be given by the corporation. Surely if we are only to have a summary, it should be a summary on a sound basis. Let us see what the Minister will give us in the way of accounts. The Amendment of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) reads:
    "such accounts to be on a detailed costing system and to include a valuation of the corporation's farms."
    I do not think that can be said to err on the side of going into too great detail. Can it be supposed that a great county council would allow the chairman of its agricultural committee to decide on what lines the report of that committee should be made? The county council would lay

    1923
    down the lines of the report of the farming committee, state when it was to be handed in, and it would decide what the sub-committee was to do. Parliament ought to be as careful about getting proper accounts as a county council. Therefore, it seems to me that, although the Minister has given us soft words and says everything will be done properly, he is not going to make his returns as outlined in the Amendment, or else he would accept our Amendment and let us get on with the Bill. I understand that two Amendments have been discussed on the first Amendment, but I prefer the first.
    Lieut. - Colonel WATTS - MORGAN: Which do you put our money on?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I do not think that in the present condition of things I should be prepared to put my money on either. [Interruption]. In all seriousness, I think the right hon. Gentleman might indicate that in another place he would move a more detailed Amendment, so that we might really know on what basis the summary which he is going to present to us will be drawn up.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I understand that the Minister at this moment is, perhaps, considering what action should be taken with regard to this Clause and I have been talking with my Noble Friend in whose name the Amendment stands. There is not a great deal. I think, between the two sides. I am not certain whether the Minister would be of the same opinion, but may I put this to him as a solution on which we might agree? He has made an advance towards meeting the views on this side. I understand he is prepared to say that he would prescribe in the Order that the corporation's accounts shall include a profit and loss account generally similar to that required by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, and also that the accounts shall include a valuation made at the commencement and end of each farming year.
    What we set store by is that there should be a profit and loss account, and I would ask my Noble Friend, if he would, to withdraw the actual requirement of his Amendment as to the precise form, leaving it that there should be a profit and loss account for each farm with a capital of £10,000 or over. I understand that that is not very different from
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    what the Minister would be prepared to agree to. As it is intended that this should be large-scale farming, probably the units are intended to be of this order, and this would save niggling about smaller matters. Similarly, as regards the valuation, I myself have experience of what can be the very considerable cost of an independent valuation, and, therefore, having regard to the question of economy, I would appeal to my Noble Friend if he would to withdraw that requirement, if the Minister, on the other hand, would be willing to agree to a valuation, trusting that it should be done with what I would call that proper honesty and probity with which a farmer who is a skilled man would do it himself.
    Mr. MARKHAM: Does the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion apply to both Amendments?
    9.0 p.m
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Yes. What we think is of great importance, and it ought not to be difficult to express it within the compass of a certain number of words, is that this provision should be in the Bill. In the ease of a previous Amendment, the Minister was not really at great variance with what many of us wished in regard to letting, but even then he could not see his way to put it into the Bill. Of course, however, Ministers do come and Ministers do go. [interruption.] They may be going very soon. [Interruption.] I quite agree that I went. If the present Minister lasts for another three years, he will last a great deal longer than anyone on the benches opposite in the least expects. [Interruption.] I am glad to think that there is such an optimistic Member on those benches, but I would like to hear some of his conversations in private, as well as his conversations for public consumption. I have no doubt that, if we were allowed to be present at some of those private conversations, we should realise the complete unanimity that prevails in the Socialist party. [Interruption.] It is the hon. Member himself who has led me into taking up the time of the House, and I cannot he blamed for that, if there is a running obbligato of that kind. Seriously, there should not be any great difficulty in adding just these words to the Bill, providing that there shall be a proper profit and loss account and a valuation, and, further, that these accounts, like

    1925
    some other accounts, should be presented to Parliament, so that they can be a matter of public information. I have seen one set of large-scale farming accounts, and it was the actual seeing of these accounts that was of interest to me, and not merely some general statement with regard to them combined with those of other operations. If the Minister could see his way to agree to this suggestion, I would ask my Noble Friend if, on that understanding, he would consent to withdraw his Amendment. To put my proposal quite clearly, it is that there should be inserted in the Bill a requirement that each year the accounts should include a proper profit, and loss account for each undertaking separately which has a capital of £10,000 or over, and, at the same time, a proper valuation at the beginning and the end of each financial year; and, lastly, anticipating Subsection (6), that these accounts should be presented to Parliament, so that they may be available, not only for Parliament, but for those members of the farming community to whom, it is hoped, this large-scale farming may be an example.
    9.0 p.m.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: The Minister has been very conciliatory, and, as he has gone so far, I am unwilling to press this matter to a Division. I agree with what has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland), and I do not desire to insist on the precise form of the Amendment. I should be willing to withdraw the words:
    "for each farm in the form required by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for the purpose of assessment of farming profits under Schedule D,"
    and also the words:
    "by an independent valuer practising in the county in which the farm is situate, such valuer to be nominated by the President of the Surveyors' Institution."
    It will be seen, therefore, that I am willing to withdraw very nearly the whole of my Amendment. It would then simply read:
    "Such accounts to include a profit and loss account and a valuation made at the commencement and end of each financial year."
    This is practically common ground, and I fail to see, if the Amendment is watered down to that extent, why it should not go into the Bill itself. More
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    than five-sixths of the Amendment would be withdrawn, and I really think that the Minister might accept the little bit that is left.
    Dr. ADDISON: I would ask the Noble Lord to let me see what it really is that he now proposes.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: What I am prepared to do is to leave out the words from "account" ["such accounts to include a profit and loss account"] to "Schedule D," and also the last two lines of the Amendment, so that it would read as follows:
    "Such accounts to include a profit and loss account and a valuation made at the commencement and end of each farming year."
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: For each farm of £10,000 or over.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: No; I shall be quite satisfied if the Minister will put into the Bill the words that I have just read.
    Dr. ADDISON: I want to be quite sure what it is. There is nothing here that would not be in the accounts in any case, but I want to know what I am asked to agree to. We have agreed to insert in another part of the Bill the year which the accounts cover ending, I think, on 1st May, so I must be at liberty to alter the word "financial" if it needs to be altered. I am willing to accept the Amendment on that understanding. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) knows what difficulties may crop up if you are tied by the words of a Statute in any particular form. There is no desire whatever to avoid full accounts; in fact, it is the whole basis of the scheme that everyone who is interested should know what is the result of the expenditure.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I gather the right hon. Gentleman agrees that we should have accounts separately for the main farms if they are of sufficient size, say with a capital of £10,000
    Dr. ADDISON: The right hon. Gentleman is in possession of a piece of paper on which my undertaking is written. I do not want to alter my form of words. The undertaking I gave was that the farming operations should be taken as

    1927
    separate units, and the accounts of each unit will be kept separately and laid before Parliament. That will be provided for in the Order. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept my acceptance of the Amendment.
    Sir J. LAMB: The right hon. Gentleman says every separate unit. Will that be every separate unit in the farm, or will it be the unit of the farm? [Interruption.] Will they be costing accounts?
    Dr. ADDISON: I cannot imagine any accounts which are not costing accounts if they are worthy of the name. Of course, they will be costing accounts.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In page 3, line 4, after the word "corporation," to insert the words:
    "such accounts to include a profit and loss account and to include a valuation made at the commencement and end of each financial year."—[Dr. Addison.]
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to move in page 3, line 23, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that a petition for winding up the board may he presented by the Minister as well as by any person authorised under the other provisions of the Companies Act, 1929, to present a petition for winding up a company."
    Part IX of the Companies Act of 1929 deals with the winding-up of registered companies. It would seem to me that the really important section, and the one under which my Amendment would apply, is Section 338. Under paragraph (c) no unregistered company shall be wound up voluntarily. I do not know whether it is one of the modifications put into the Bill that this corporation shall not have power to be wound up. Voluntarily winding up might be necessary. Paragraph (e) says that if a creditor by assignment or otherwise to whom the company is indebted in a sum exceeding £50 then due has served on the company by leaving at its principal place of business, or by delivering to the secretary a demand, he shall be entitled to a winding up order. There is certainly one person who is a creditor more than anyone else, and that is the Minister, or, in the case of Scotland, the Secretary of State for Scotland. But I am not at all clear whether the Minister, seeing that the money is advanced out of
    1928
    the Treasury, is a creditor within the meaning of Part X of the Act. The words I am proposing to insert are taken out of the Government's Agricultural Marketing Bill where, presumably, they have found it necessary to make the Minister the person who may apply for an Order in the case of a corporation set up and financed by Government money. It seems to me that the Minister of Agriculture, who, after all, is the person most able to judge whether or not the company is, in fact, getting into such financial difficulties that it ought not to impose any further strain on the taxpayer, is one of the people who ought to be entitled to present an Order to the court saying that in his opinion the company should be wound up, its assets distributed, and, after its just debts have been paid, the balance, if any, should be returned to the Exchequer.
    We set up under this Bill a corporation which is, to some extent, independent, although its finances are publicly provided. The one check which we have upon it is the Minister, and, reading Part X of the Companies Act, 1929, I am extremely doubtful whether, in the case of this corporation failing to achieve the high hopes placed upon it by the Minister and the Government, and to carry out the agricultural occupation any more successfully than people have been able to do in recent years, the Minister himself, as representing this House and the taxpayer, would have a right to make an application for winding it up. I believe that, as the law at present stands, and as this Measure which incorporates Part X of the Companies Act provides, the Minister could not do that, though possibly the Treasury might. I think that he ought to have those powers, and it is for that reason I move the Amendment.
    Colonel LANE FOX: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I do not think that many words are required, because I cannot imagine, unless there is some technical reason against it, that the Government would wish to refuse the Amendment. There might, of course, be some reason—and we should be told—why the Amendment is not thought necessary. Obviously the person who, above all others, should have the first opportunity of causing the winding up of the corporation should be

    1929
    the Minister himself. I hope that the Government will see their way to incorporate this Amendment in the Bill unless its provision is already amply provided for. If it is, it will be unnecessary, but if it is not amply provided for it is, clearly, most necessary that the Minister should have the first opportunity of winding up what, I think, is likely to be a corporation which will badly and speedily require to be wound up. At any rate, as soon as disaster is apparent to him, he should do his best to mitigate the effects of his bad work.
    Mr. ATTLEE: There is no difference between us at all as to the desirability of the Minister having the power to wind up this corporation. If hon. Members will look at the Bill as drafted, they will see that it is laid down that the Order shall make provision as to the circumstances in which the corporation shall be wound up, and shall provide for the application of Part X of the Companies Act, 1929, subject to such modifications as may be specified in the Order. When one comes to consider that the sole shareholder in this corporation is the Minister, it will be seen that the application of Part X cannot have reference to anybody but the Minister in respect of winding up. As I understand it, the Order will contain provisions enabling the Minister to require the corporation to be wound up, and that is the reason for this part of the Clause. It is unnecessary to put in the Amendment which the hon. and gallant Member has drafted, because its provision is already adequately covered.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I should like to have this matter made clear. If I understand the hon. Gentleman aright, he says that the Minister has the right of being the first person to wind up the corporation because he is the only shareholder. Would he mind letting us know whether that is actually the wording of the Companies Act There are a good many people—I am only speaking from memory—who, under the Companies Act, have the power to apply for a winding-up. There are certain officials who have the power to apply for the winding-up of a concern, and it is not necessarily shareholders or directors who have the first right. The Minister ought to have this matter made quite clear.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I am advised that the Minister is entirely secure in the position the hon. and gallant Member desires under the Measure as drafted.
    Viscount CRANBORNE: The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster spoke of the Minister being the only shareholder. I understood during the Committee stage that the corporation were to have power to borrow from the general public £1,000,000 a year in addition to the £1,000,000 they received from the Government. I imagined that people who lent this money would also be shareholders of the corporation.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I think that the hon. Member is mistaken. The borrowing is not to be from the general public; that is not contemplated. There are many other ways of borrowing besides applying to shareholders.
    Captain BOURNE: I do not wish to press the Amendment, but I should be grateful for information as to why this particular form of words is not used in this Measure, whereas in the Agricultural Marketing Bill it is substantially included. It is this fact which causes a doubt in my mind. Why is it put in one Bill in one form and in this Bill in a totally different form? It is that fact which causes the doubt. I know that the Minister wants a moment before he replies, so perhaps the House will excuse me if I detain it while he gets the answer. It would not appear to me that the Minister is a shareholder, but is merely the person who loans the money. I should have thought that he was not a shareholder within the meaning of the Shareholders' Act, but a person—or rather the Treasury—who advances money to the corporation. The corporation would carry on with borrowed money which it was bound to pay back to the Government in a period of 40 years, and that is not quite the same position as the one in which a person subscribes shares.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The short answer is that the constitution of those two Bills is entirely different—the one sets up a board and the other a corporation. I am willing to give the hon. and gallant Member an assurance that I will consult my right hon. Friend on the matter,

    1931
    and, if necessary, it will be put in at a later stage, but I am assured by legal advisers that it is quite unnecessary.
    Sir J. LAMB: Cannot the hon. Gentleman elucidate a little further the matter as to the Minister being the only shareholder? I think that this borrowing would not be from the Treasury only, but from somebody else besides. What rights will they have, either as shareholders, bondholders or in any capacity? Will they have any right whatever in this matter?
    Mr. ATTLEE: I am afraid that the hon. Member is asking me now to embark upon a long disquisition as to the law with regard to varying types of creditors. I think that what he has in his mind is an idea that the subsequent borrowing is going to be by issuing shares, and that is not contemplated.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what is the difference in the two cases?
    Mr. ATTLEE: No; I am afraid I cannot without notice.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Really, it is not a matter of question and answer in the House of Commons. I do not want to press the Minister unduly, but if we ask for the meaning of a Bill, which we are really entitled to do, it is unusual to require notice of the question. No doubt there may be legal points which I would not wish to press unduly any more than I would wish to be pressed if I were in charge of the Bill. At the same time, I think that we ought to have the guidance of one of the Law Officers. We have two Law Officers now, and one of them is ready to give an opinion which sometimes is rather startling. It would be as well perhaps to have both Law Officers here in order to see whether they gave the same account. When I am told that I must give notice of a question of this kind, my answer is, "Well, where is the competent authority?" because there ought to he some competent authority on the Benches opposite to give us an account of the legal points involved in a Clause like this.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I did not suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should give me notice, but he put a specific question which I could not answer, because I
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    should have to give a comparison between this Bill, with which I am familiar, and an Act, which I cannot be expected to carry in my head.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I will not ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us any information about the other Measure, the details of which he cannot carry in his head, at the moment, but I will simply ask him to say more precisely what will be involved by leaving out the words from "1929" to the end of the Sub-section.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Here is a Minister of the Crown saying that he does not know! It has amazed me more than anything else in this Debate. Think of the honesty of a Minister in admitting it! I congratulate him most sincerely. We do not know what is the precise legal meaning of this proposal. I am not a lawyer and we have had no legal expression on this matter. It is not a paltry thing involving a thousand pounds or so. It may run into millions of the taxpayers' money. Considering the large sums which the taxpayers have to pay to the two legal members of the Government, surely we are entitled to have legal authorities here to give us their advice? They have not been here the whole day. I only wish that the Front Bench would do what is necessary in the circumstances. We might have the two Law Officers here. They might give two diametrically opposite opinions, and the House should have the privilege of deciding between them.
    As we are, apparently, to be denied the solace of having the Law Officers' advice, might I appeal to the Government. At any rate, there is one Cabinet Minister here, the Secretary of State for Scotland. Everyone knows that at one time he was the leader of the Socialist party in this House. His knowledge is immense, and everyone respects and likes him. Might I appeal to him to give us some little help in this matter 7 He has very great experience and knowledge. [Interruption.] If hon. Members opposite want to make speeches, I am sure they will join with me in asking the advice of the Law Officers. [Interruption.] It is mast difficult to deal with the subject when hon. Members opposite continually cheer. I take what encourage-

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    ment I can from that, and I make this appeal. In the circumstances, as we are denied our rights, we might have, at any rate, some pronouncement from the Secretary of State for Scotland. He knows we value his opinion very deeply and if only he will tell us what the position is, it will help us.
    To come to the actual Amendment, while the Secretary of State for Scotland is getting his information on this point, there are two things I want to know. First of all, if in the winding up of this corporation there is a very considerable loss, who will have to face it? I conclude it will be the taxpayer. When starting a new corporation of this kind, it is absolutely impossible for the House of Commons to overlook an Amendment such as this without having a real decision on the matter. I regret that I heard only part of the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) in moving his Amendment, but, as I understand it, the Amendment is one of importance and very technical. I have not yet been able to make up my mind fully how, under this Bill, the 1929 Act comes in, and that is another point which might be elucidated. I feel sure that every Member of the House would wish to have a clear and concise definition of the real position, and of what we are really doing. It is not a. matter which should be passed over without some protest from the ordinary back bench Members. It is a matter involving the whole finance of the corporation and a very great deal of the finance of the country as well. That being the case, it ought not to be treated in the frivolous way in which the Under-Secretary who is in charge of the Measure has dealt with it. I acknowledge again his candour, but I do say that this is a matter on which we ought to have the very best legal opinion.
    Sir HENRY BETTERTON: This is not a matter which should be dismissed in the casual way which the Minister suggests, for it is a point of very real legal substance. The Minister tells us that he cannot answer without notice.
    Mr. ATTLEE: No. I said the point I was asked about dealt with another Act.
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I apologise.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I said I would dismiss the point about the other
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    Act, and ask the Minister to give an answer about this particular Amendment which provides for a petition for winding-up, etc.
    Mr. ATTLEE: The right hon. Gentleman asked me about an Amendment that has not been called.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The Amendment to which I alluded was that beginning with the words:
    "Provided that a petition for winding-up the board may be presented by the Minister, etc."
    If just without thinking I referred to another Amendment I did not mean it.
    Sir H. BETTERTON: This is a point of great substance and it is also a very technical one. The Act of 1929 was passed only two years ago, and we are entitled to know the effect of this Bill on the-existing legislation. Who is to have the right to present a winding-up petition? Has the Minister the right, or are there other people who will have the right? If these questions are not decided here, the Bill will give rise to endless litigation hereafter, and we ought to have the decision of the Law Officers of the Crown.
    Major GLYN: I understood the Chancellor of the Duchy to say that he had taken advice from his legal advisers and that as a result of that advice he thought it was not necessary to introduce this Amendment. We would like to know what was that legal advice, because beyond the word of the Chancellor of the Duchy, which we are all prepared to take, we do not know whether it is as forceful as it would be if one of the Law Officers of the Crown were present. This is an example of where it is so essential that we should have the advice of one of the Law Officers. Where public money is at stake it is all the more important that we should know exactly where we are as to the responsibility of Ministers and as to their powers of protecting the public purse. For that reason, while the Chancellor of the Duchy is fully competent to answer from the Ministerial point of view, it is not exactly the same thing as having legal opinion. He said that he had consulted his advisers, but we are entitled to know whether his advisers have been reinforced by the opinion of the Law Officers of the

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    Crown. It is the responsibility of the Government to assure us that the statement that has been made is based on the opinion of one of the Law Officers.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I think that we ought to have some answer from the Government. These Amendments have been on the Order Paper for some days. This particular Amendment raises technical but important details. Of course, we appreciate that the Law Officers have very heavy pressure on their time, but, if they are absent, they at least owe it to the House that they should brief Ministers in order that they may be in a position to answer the legal arguments which have been urged by the various learned hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate. I do not want to take up the time of the House by suggesting that we should have an adjournment of the Debate in order to draw attention to the absence of the Law Officers, but, while restraining myself from that temptation, I do feel that a protest is necessary. It is not treating the House with courtesy for Ministers to sit silent after the long Bombardment on legal points, to which they are quite incapable of making an answer, and in regard to which they make no effort to get any legal advice from the Law Officers, whose duty it is to give the benefit of their advice to the House of Commons.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I was about to rise when the right hon. Gentleman rose. This Sub-section provides for the application of the Companies' Act, subject to such modification as may be expressed by Order, to the proposed corporation. That Order will come before the House, with any suggested necessary modifications of the Companies' Act to this particular form of corporation. I was advised by our legal advisers that that was the way to proceed, and it amply provides for the point which has been put forward by hon. Members opposite. I have stated that, if the Mover of the Amendment desires it, I will take further advice, and should it prove to be necessary, we will insert in another place the words which he desires. I am quite prepared to see that that is dune, but I am assured that the words are unnecessary.
    Captain BOURNE: In view of the assurance which has been given by the Chancellor of the Duchy that he will further consider the point, and, if necessary, insert words in another place, I do not desire to press the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page 3, line 26, to leave out the words "if either," and to insert instead thereof the words "unless each."
    This Amendment is to secure that for the making of an Order laying down the conditions under which the proposed corporation shall work, it shall be necessary that both Houses of Parliament shall give their positive consent instead of merely the negative acquiescence suggested in the Bill. The House is aware that there has been much public complaint recently about the conditions under which Departmental Orders are now made, and inquiry has been set afoot as to any necessary changes which should be recommended. This Bill adopts what may be looked upon as the accustomed procedure in making Ordersin-Council and Departmental Orders. In most cases no discussion arises. By this Amendment we seek to begin a better system in connection with Departmental Orders. We do not in any way wish to impede the normal opportunities of the Government to get their Orders accepted. As the Bill stands, the House of Lords have already an equal right with this House to reject an Order if they pass a Resolution in that sense. Therefore, there is no hidden motive of holding up the passing of Orders in changing over the method of making them.
    We all know that it is very difficult to get a House after 11 o'clock. Under the negative procedure now generally in force, the only way that an Order can be negatived is by means of a Prayer, when private Members find it extremely difficult to get a reasonable hearing. This proposal is to authorise Orders of very great public importance, and we believe that matters will there be dealt with upon which the Government should not have a blank cheque, but that they should justify the details of these Orders to the House of Commons, and that it should be an obligation on them to find Government time and an opportunity for the House of Commons to be apprised

    1937
    of what is proposed. This Amendment is not in any way a wrecking Amendment in regard to reasonable Orders, but is a very useful innovation with the object of regaining Parliamentary control of these Departmental Orders, which are becoming such an anxiety and such a nuisance to the general public.
    Colonel ASHLEY: This Amendment embodies what I think is a very necessary change in our Parliamentary procedure. I had the honour for some years to be a Minister and to pass a good many Orders under the machinery that is laid down in the Bill. I, naturally, had no idea that any injustice was being done, because i always satisfied myself that the Order that I was presenting to both Houses of Parliament was a good Order and for the benefit of the public. But one cannot always be sure that there will be such an excellent and far-sighted Minister in charge, and one must admit that the procedure in existence to-day breaks down unless the Government propose an Order which is so outrageously absurd as to excite the antipathy and indignation of the Opposition as a whole.
    What is the procedure at the moment? Unless one of the two Houses passes a Resolution saying that the Order shall not be effective it becomes operative. As far as this House is concerned, the time allowance is entirely at the disposal of the Government of the day, and, unless an Order is so outrageous as to excite the opposition of the whole body of the Opposition and the leaders of the party demand time for discussion, it goes through. That procedure seems to me to be wrong, as it entirely, or practically entirely, does away with the control of Parliament over these Orders. All Ministers get up and say "Do not pass this Amendment, do not insist on it being put in black and white; trust us to see that we make draft Orders which will be so reasonable as to be received with enthusiasm." As a matter of fact, the back benchers have no power to reject such Orders. The Amendment must, of course, be objected to by right hon. Gentlemen who have charge of the time of the business of the House, whatever Government may be in office. Obviously, the Chief Whips, who have charge of the business, would not welcome the fact that they should have to allocate a certain amount of time every month for
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    these various Orders. After all, we have not to consider how much legislation we can pass but whether the legislation which we do pass is appropriate and necessary, and also that these draft Orders are fair to the general public.
    When we are hearing so much about the machinery of the House of Commons being inadequate and how absurd it is for eighteenth century procedure to be dealing with twentieth century legislation, this Amendment offers an opportunity for hon. Members opposite to make a beginning to speed up and modernise our procedure, to rationalise the machinery, and do something to enable the House of Commons to have some control over these matters. If the reports in the newspapers are correct, there is a good deal of dissatisfaction on the back benches opposite with the policy of their Government. Now is an opportunity for them to become vocal in Parliament. This is a good chance for them to make their mark and really do something to bring the House of Commons procedure up to date.
    If this Amendment is carried, it will not only be a precedent for future legislation, but it will help us in future when we ask that this particular form of procedure shall be carried out. Why should we not give an affirmative vote in favour of these Orders? We do not say that a Second Reading shall be given to a Bill unless either House registers a vote against it; we always ask for an affirmative vote, and the same thing occurs in the case of Amendments in Committee and on the Third Reading of a Bill. Why should we continue the topsy-turvy machinery outlined in this Bill. I can only suggest that it is to facilitate the business of the Government. I strongly support the Amendment. It shows that, as always, the Conservative party are in the van of progress. We want to speed up the business of this House.
    Mr. ATTLEE: This is a very familiar Motion, and the attitude taken up by hon. Members generally depends on which side of the House they are sitting for the time being. The right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley) reminds me rather of the celebrated politician, Francis Place, who after having 17 children became an enthusiast of Malthus. The right hon.

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    and gallant Member has been responsible for many Orders being passed after Eleven o'Clock at night. He seems to be somewhat like a repentant sinner.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Is there not more joy over one sinner that repenteth?
    Mr. ATTLEE: I agree and the anti-Socialist Union must be rejoicing in the fact that the right hon. and gallant Member is refusing to set up a corporation with £1,000,000 capital after having been responsible for one with £37,000,000 capital. Broadly speaking, this is a hardy annual, and it is purely obstructive—[Interruption.]
    Viscount WOLMER: Is the hon. Member in order in describing as purely obstructive an Amendment which you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have selected?
    Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): I believe that observation "obstructive" has been made frequently in the House, and it is not an observation for which I am called upon to rebuke the hon. Member who, I am sure, intended no reflection upon the Chair.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I was not referring to the Amendment as obstructive, but to the procedure proposed by the Amendment. Everyone knows that the time of the House is very much occupied and the sole purpose of having an affirmative resolution of this House is to make it even more fully occupied. The Government cannot accept the Amendment.
    Captain BOURNE: The House will have listened with some astonishment to the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy. He said that the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley) was responsible as the head of a Department for a large number of Orders passed under the procedure outlined in this Bill. That is true, but under our procedure there are some Orders which require a Resolution of the House and other Orders which are passed unless objection is taken. Those Orders which are passed unless objection is taken are what I may call minor Orders. It is true that a Committee is now sitting to consider whether the procedure in relation to these minor Orders is satisfactory, but on the whole the great bulk of them are small administrative details, with which,
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    unless objection is raised by someone, it is unnecessary to occupy the time of the House. When you come to an Order of this kind the situation is somewhat different. Under this Clause, the Government propose to set up a corporation to which they propose to give very wide powers in respect of large-scale farming operations, and I would remind the House that the Government have never really defined the object of the corporation, the powers of the corporation, or how the corporation will carry them out. All these things are to be specified in the Order which is to be made by the Minister. An order of that kind is of very much more importance and strong objection has been taken to the procedure.
    This seems eminently an occasion on which the Government should be forced to defend the policy on which they base their Order, and should defend it both in this House and in another place. I agree that the object of this procedure is to save time. But this Order is what may be described as a big Order. It relates to the expenditure of £1,000,000 of public money. That is a strong reason why the House should debate the Order and be in a position to express an opinion whether or not the expenditure should be sanctioned. Moreover the House should have an opportunity of criticising at a reasonable hour of the day. The only procedure possible is for some industrious Member to move a Prayer requesting that the Order be not confirmed. The Government are under no obligation to keep a House for the discussion of that Prayer, and in any case the discussion would take place at an hour when it is unlikely to be reported in the Press and when public attention is not focused on it.
    With regard to gas Orders, I agree that the procedure is adequate. Only occasionally have I known serious objection to be taken to Orders of that kind, and when the objection has been really serious the House has always been willing I o set up a Select Committee to deal with the complaint. But under this Order the Government will be setting up a corporation which will he financed by public money and will exercise great and ill-defined powers. Once that Order is through, there is no necessity for the Minister to come to Parliament for another Order.
    Sir BASIL PETO: In the few minutes that I shall speak I shall show how utterly inadequate and inappropriate the answer of the Chancellor of the Duchy was to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley). The answer consisted simply of the pot calling the kettle black, or, in more classic language, it amounted to saying to my right hon. Friend, Et to Brute. This is an altogether novel form of procedure for a Government to adopt. The Government will be able, under this Clause, to go into a gigantic business with public money, to purchase land and manage it, and to show the farmers of the country how to conduct their business on a grand scale. Incidentally, in another Sub-section, the Government propose to make such modifications as they think right in Part 10 of that tremendous Act, the Companies Act of 1929, which I think was the magnum opus of the late Lord Birkenhead. Surely the House is entitled to have some opportunity other than that proposed by the Bill for consideration of the modifications in Part 10 of the Companies Act referring to the winding up of unregistered companies. I can understand that the Government want to be a law unto themselves, but if they want to alter the Companies Act in order to suit their own particular case, surely the House is entitled to a better opportunity for discussion of the matter than that provided by the laying of an Order on the Table of the House.
    The Amendment cannot be met by merely saying that this is an ordinary procedure, that Members in Opposition always object to this laying of Orders on the Table, but that as soon as they cross the Floor of the House the same game is carried on by those who were formerly the Government. That is not so. This is a new departure altogether. We have hitherto had no legislation of this kind, which provides for the Government being great undertakers and going into business with public money on a large scale. On top of that the Government propose, almost with effrontery, to make such Amendments as they choose in the Companies Act, in case their own corporation should fail and it should be necessary to wind it up, and they do not give the House an opportunity of considering
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    what Amendment shall be made in that great Act. In those circumstances this Clause stands in a category by itself. It is no use for the Chancellor of the Duchy to tell my right bon. Friend the Member for the New Forest that when he was in office he issued more Orders than most Ministers and laid them on the Table of the House. That was normal procedure in connection with normal legislation. But here we have a Government going into business on a great scale, and it proposes to make the law for itself, or such modifications of the law as it chooses, and not to give the House an opportunity of considering the matter. We are on far stronger ground in criticising this proposal of the Government than any Opposition could ever have been before, for no legislation of this kind has ever been proposed before.
    Sir DENNIS HERBERT: It is a curious commentary on the Government's loss of touch with Parliamentary affairs that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster should have treated this Amendment as he did. He should be aware that for nearly 12 months a committee has been inquiring into the whole system of delegating legislative powers, and that committee was set up as the result of an outcry which has, I think, reached the ears of everybody interested in politics except Members on the Treasury Bench. In the first place, it is right to call attention to the fact that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, when he upbraided my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley), lost sight of the fact that most of the Orders which my right hon. Friend made when he was in office required the exact procedure for which this Amendment asks, namely an affirmative resolution. We hear much from all quarters and not least from hon. Members opposite, as to the unsatisfactory working of the Parliamentary machine. I agree that a great deal of what may be called minor legislation has to be delegated to a Minister or a Government Department but, legislation which takes the form of setting up an important corporation and giving it wide and extensive powers, financial and otherwise, is legislation over which Parliament ought to retain control. Everyone with any experience of this House

    1943
    knows that, unsatisfactory as the procedure of an affirmative resolution may be, it is at least not so unsatisfactory as the procedure of merely allowing an order to lie on the Table of the House for a specified number of days.
    The House will forgive me if I recall an instance which occurred only a few months ago when a question was raised in this House in regard to an order under the Census Act, showing the way in which these things are apt to slip through without Parliament knowing anything about them. I invite hon. Members opposite who are really interested in trying to make our Parliamentary procedure work satisfactorily to consider the extent of the Order which the Minister is authorised to make under Clause 1 of the Bill. I have been in this House for a considerable number of years and I do not suppose that in that period it has ever been proposed to give more extensive and important powers to any Minister than those proposed here. Over and over again, in delegating powers much less important than these, the House of Commons has insisted that an affirmative resolution should be required. I make a serious appeal to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to accept this Amendment in the interest of the fair and efficient working of the Parliamentary machine. I go further and appeal to him to do so for the sake of his party, because I cannot think that that party will improve their reputation as Parliamentarians by refusing to accept an Amendment which does not give any real opportunity for obstruction but does give a certain amount of control over a very important delegation of legislation powers.
    Anyone who sits in this House after 11 o'clock at night knows that affirmative resolutions are frequently passed to the number of five or six or even more, in that part of the silting, and if the Order made is unobjectionable, the Minister knows that he will obtain his affirmative resolution. I am sure he will believe me when I say that I am not attempting to deal with this matter from a party point of view. I say quite definitely and decidedly that if the party to which I belong were sitting on the other side of the House I should support an Amendment of this kind. I have done so in the past
    1944
    and I intend and hope to do so in the future. In the interests of Parliamentary government I appeal to right hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider whether they cannot accept the Amendment.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: I cannot speak with the authority of the hon. Member for Watford (Sir D. Herbert) who has, in the past, occupied the Chair, but it is quite clear that anyone who is interested in legislative procedure and in the constitutional position in regard to these matters must look at this problem not from any partisan or party aspect at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to have the assent of hon. Gentlemen opposite and I hope to find them with me in the Division Lobby on this question. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster brushed the Amendment aside. He first said that it was an obstructive Amendment—for which he had to apologise to the Chair—then he said that it was the kind of Amendment which Oppositions always brought forward and asked why the Opposition should do so now—a very peculiar, and, if I may say so, an idiotic argument. It is a sort of hopeless attitude on the part of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Why should one ever do anything? If we carry that argument to its logical conclusion then why in the name of goodness should we be discussing this Bill at all? As a matter of fact, this system of treating draft Orders in the negative instead of the positive aspect is all wrong. It is obviously difficult late at night to deal with these matters and it is obviously not the interest of the Government to see that a sufficiently large number of Members remain here in order to resolve against the Government's own order.
    When the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster talks about the other House I put this point to him. He made the curious remark on a previous Amendment that he would see to it, that, if necessary, some Amendment would be made in another place. That is an extraordinary statement from a Labour Government—guaranteeing that some Amendment will be made in another place. Now he is to dragoon the other place in regard to these Orders in the way in which he is trying to force this Bill through this House at this late hour. If you left in the words "either House," and the other place did throw out an

    1945
    Order, I suppose the Government would say, "It is very doubtful whether the other place can do this, because there are vast financial commitments involved; it is a question of money, and the privileges of this House come in." Then where should we be? The hon. Member has not thought it out. He has got the system of contracting-out so much on the brain, as the result of another Measure that is before this House, that he thinks it necessary to introduce it in regard to these Orders. It is perfectly monstrous.
    He gets up and says to my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench, "When you were in office, you produced more of these draft Orders than we are likely to do." That is true. My right hon. Friend was in office a great deal longer than this Government is ever likely to be, and therefore he probably did produce a great many more draft Orders than the Chancellor of the Duchy or anybody else on that side will ever do. But when my right hon. Friend patted himself metaphorically on the back and said that all the draft Orders that he produced were good, I cannot accept that. The Ministry of Transport is one of the most bureaucratic institutions in this country, and its draft Orders, whether produced under a Conservative Minister or a Socialist—
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Or by agreement between both!
    Captain CROOKSHANK:—or by agreement between the Socialist and the Liberal parties, require far more attention than any draft Orders under this Bill are likely to receive after 11 o'clock at night.
    Major HARVEY: I resent very much the accusation made across the Floor of the House by the Chancellor of the Duchy when he said that we were treating this matter in an obstructive manner. As a matter of fact, I do not believe that anyone on this side is endeavouring to obstruct. I for one, rise simply to make a few remarks on the score of economy. We know very well that we require very strict care over all Government expenditure, in whatever direction it may be made, and in this particular Clause, under which so much power is being given to the corporation to spend such an enormous amount of money, it is most
    1946
    desirable that the Parliamentary procedure for the time being should be altered.
    As a good sound Conservative, I am more anxious than are most to preserve the Parliamentary procedure which has acted so well for so long and will continue to act, I hope, for many years to come, but in this particular place I think it is not sufficient to have just a copy of the Order left in the Library, and to allow hon. Members on this side only to go into the Library, pick it out, and put a Prayer before the House of Commons that it should not he adopted. I think it is desirable in a case like this, where £1,000,000 is at stake, and perhaps a great deal more, that each House of Parliament should definitely confirm the expenditure of that money. The hon. and gallant Member for Gains-borough (Captain Crookshank) referred to the question of contracting-out, and may I call attention to this fact also, that even in the matter of co-operative associations, of which I believe the Minister knows a good deal, they get a chance of saying whether or not they want to uphold an Order! Although I do not wish to stand between the House and a Division, I must just say that I shall support this Amendment earnestly and whole-heartedly on the grounds of economy and the strict supervision of Parliament over all expenditure.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: It is very necessary to curb the bureaucracy so as to prevent the passing of these Orders through a back door. We must consider the tremendous importance and the great diversity of subjects with which this Order will have to deal. Ten different things are laid down in this Clause. It has, for instance, to make provision for winding-up this corporation if it goes bankrupt, as no doubt it will; it has to provide for the remuneration of the directors, to empower the corporation to purchase land, and to provide for the establishment of a fund to be administered by the directors. These are one or two of the things that have to be done by the Order, and it is going to involve not only the expenditure of a vast sum of public money, but the management of a very large area of land in this country. I hope that the Minister will see that this Order will be properly considered before it becomes the law of the land.
    Major MUIRHEAD: I intervene for a particular object. This Amendment has been debated so far entirely by Members who have sat in previous Parliaments, and I wish to put the point of view of a Member who is in his first Parliament. One hears a great deal nowadays about the danger of bureaucracy, and one has heard about it during the discussion of this Amendment. There has been a great deal of the "You're another" sort of argument. Somebody makes a protest, and then the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster gets up and says, "You are just as bad, if not worse." An hon. Friend of mine talks about pots and kettles being black. I daresay they are. I see before me on the amalgamated Front Benches a collection of pots and kettles mixed up together, and they are of the blackest hue as regards Orders which have been put through without Members being given adequate opportunity for considering them. That does not concern me.
    I come to this House, neither as a pot nor as a kettle; and, speaking not merely for myself, not merely for Members on this side of the House, but possibly for all Members who are fresh, and at all events not black, we honestly and sincerely wish to see some reasonable way by which the increasing power, and what some people may call the increasing abuse of the bureaucracy is checked as far as is reasonably possible. The House will admit that I have not intervened prematurely on this matter; I have heard a lot of learned Members of one sort and another, and I have definitely intervened now to give the point of view of a Member who is sitting in his first Parliament. I believe that many of those good people who belong to organisations which go into classes and places of a very low moral character, and try to reclaim them to a higher moral standard, often have as one of the principles on which they act, "It is not much good worrying about the older people; you cannot do much for them. Save the children!" I am a child who wants to be saved, and that is why I hope this Amendment will be accepted.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I am not in the position of the last speaker, for I am in my second—[HON. MEMBERS: "Childhood!"]—Parliament. I thought
    1948
    hon. Members would be quick to seize their chance. I wish the Ministers on the Treasury Bench were as quick to seize their chance by accepting this Amendment. Supporters of the Government, whenever they get the chance, throw the Hatry case at private enterprise. What was behind the Hatry case? The proceedings which gave rise to the Hatry case were so long undiscovered through lack of supervision over the finances of the companies. Paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2) says that the Order will provide for the keeping of the accounts of the corporation. We are dealing here with the financial transactions of a new national body; according to some hon. Members it is to be the beginning of land nationalisation. If this experiment in land nationalisation is to be saved from developing into a Hatry case, it is obvious that we must have an efficient examination into the accounts. I beg to suggest that the Minister is acting in a very suspicious way. An Order will be made, but unless attention is called to it by some body or association which wishes to oppose it, it escapes notice. Is that quite the way in which the Government wish to carry through their financial transactions?
    The financial transactions of the Government are, in the main, examined in the Budget discussions on the Floor of the House; but this is a back-door method of finance such as I should have thought the Minister of Agriculture would have been ashamed of. He is going to set up an enormous financial undertaking for land nationalisation. He has not yet told us, however, whether this experiment is to be conducted only through large farms or whether small farms are included, whether the term "large" refers to the acreage, or whether it is a big business proposition he means to set up. He has told its candidly that he will keep his mind open. There is, however, no limit to the money involved, and it will come into the accounts by a backdoor method under which we cannot readily examine the expenditure. Later on, perhaps, another Socialist Administration will find that owing to the lax way in which the first Order has been made peculation may have taken place; and, therefore, it should be the duty of this

    1949
    House to try to check that sort of thing. The Minister, however, is making it quite impossible for the House, which is the only guardian of the purse of the nation, to keep a firm hold on the finances of the country. If it is the idea of the Socialist Government that control of taxation and finance are to be taken out of the hands
    of the representatives of the people, I hope the country will take note of the fact that it is a Socialist idea.
    Question put, "That the words 'if either' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 254; Noes, 145.

    Division No. 109.]

    AYES.

    [10.31 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Mansfield, W.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Granville, E.

    Marcus, M.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Gray, Milner

    Markham, S. F.

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Marley, J.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Mathers, George

    Ammon, Charles George

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Matters, L. W.

    Angell, Sir Norman

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Maxton, James

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Melville. Sir James

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Messer, Fred

    Ayles, Walter

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Middleton, G.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Millar, J. D.

    Barnes. Alfred John

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

    Mills, J. E.

    Barr, James

    Harbord, A.

    Milner, Major J.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hardie, George D.

    Montague, Frederick

    Bellamy, Albert

    Harris, Percy A.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Morloy, Ralph

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hastings, Dr. Somerville

    Morris, Rhys Hopkins

    Benson, G.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Birkett, W. Norman

    Hayday, Arthur

    Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Blindell, James

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Mort, D. L.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Muff, G.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Herriotts, J.

    Muggeridge, H. T.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Murnin, Hugh

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Newman, sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Brooke, W.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hunter, Dr. Joseph

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshirs)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Buchanan, G.

    Isaacs, George

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Palin, John Henry

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

    Perry, S. F.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Cape, Thomas

    Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)

    Phillips, Dr. Marion

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Picton-Turbervill, Edith

    Chater, Daniel

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Pole, Major D. G.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Kinley, J.

    Potts, John S.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lang, Gordon

    Ouibell, D. F. K.

    Cock", Frederick Seymour

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Compton, Joseph

    Lathan, G.

    Rathbone, Eleanor

    Cove, William G.

    Law, Albert (Bolton)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Ccwan, D. M.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawrence, Susan

    Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

    Daggar, George

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Slalybridqe)

    Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Dallas, George

    Lawson, John James

    Ritson, J.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Romeril, H. G.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Leach, W.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Rowson, Guy

    Dukes, C.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

    Duncan, Charles

    Lees, J.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Sanders, W. S.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Sandham, E.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Longden, F.

    Scott, James

    England, Colonel A.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Scurr. John

    Foraan, Dr. Robert

    Lunn, William

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Freeman, Peter

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon, Thomas (Preston)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    McElwee, A.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

    McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)

    Shield, George William

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    McKinlay, A.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Gill, T. H.

    Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Gillett, George M.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Shinwell, E.

    Glassey, A. E.

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Gossling, A. G.

    McShane, John James

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gould, F.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Sinclair. Sir A. (Caithness)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Mander. Geoffrey le M.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    West, F. R.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Westwood, Joseph

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Tillett, Ben

    White, H. G.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Tout, W. J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Townend, A. E.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Snell, Harry

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Viant, S. P.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Walkdon, A. G.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Walker, J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wallace, H. W.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Watkins, F. C.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Strauss, G. R.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Sullivan, J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Albery, Irving James

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    O'Neill, Sir H.

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Penny, Sir George

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Ford, Sir p. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Ramsbotnam, H.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

    Betterton, Sir Henry B.

    Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & ofley)

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesail)

    Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Salmon, Major I.

    Bracken, B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Butler, R. A

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Kindersley, Major G. M.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Lamb, Sir J. O.

    Thomson, Sir f.

    Christie, J. A.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Train, J.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Horntey)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Lockwood. Captain J. H.

    Ward. Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Wells. Sydney R.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Margesson. Captain H. D.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Dalkoith, Earl of

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

    Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon Sir W.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Dixey, A. C.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Moore. Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Sir G. Bowyer and the Marquess of Titchfield.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in page 3, line 39, to leave out Subsection (5).
    This Sub-section gives power to the Minister to acquire land by compulsion and to vest it in the corporation. It has caused great anxiety. When we discussed it in Committee, the Minister said he only wanted this power to hold in reserve. He had known cases where the
    1952
    public had been held to ransom, and it was in order to prevent the public being held to ransom that the power was required. He did not believe for a moment that it would ever be necessary to exercise it. If those are the opinions of the Minister, he will be well advised to drop this power, because there is no shortage of suitable agricultural land for large-scale experiments. If those experi-

    1953
    meats are to be of any practical application by the general run of farmers, they must be carried out on average land, the same kind of land that farmers are cultivating themselves, and it will be entirely misleading to agriculturists if the Minister is going to select specially favourable areas and only carry out the experiments on very good land. The community must be armed with powers to resist outrageous demands by private persons when there is a particular monopoly value for one indispensable plot of land. If you are constructing a reservoir in a great catchment area or building a railway, it may be that 100th part of the land that you require is held up by some person who is lacking in public spirit. In those cases, we all recognise that compulsory powers are necessary and justifiable. But that does not apply to this kind of case where it is proposed to carry out large-scale experiments on average land.
    Great alarm has been caused by what the Minister has himself said. He told us upstairs that he was expecting to charge the Agricultural Corporation with experiments on all kinds of different agricultural subjects. He told us that it was not merely a matter of small cultivation but that it was fair to say that in Wales alone there were at least from 500,000 to 1,000,000 acres of good hillside grazings which might, if he had anyone big enough to undertake the job, be brought into much greater use.
    "One cannot undertake the experiment as long as the thing is in the hands of a multitude of people who have only little patches of their own."
    Do these compulsory powers mean that this multitude of people who have only little patches of their own are going to be dispossessed in order that the Minister shall empower the corporation to carry out experiments to show them how to run hillside grazing? The Minister has told us on the cereal problem that he is going to bring back large tracts of land into cultivation. He said on this point:
    "Why is it we have to propose this kind of thing? Within the last few years 1,000,000 acres have gone out of cultivation. The countryside is being desolated and devastated by the existing system. That is why we are proposing the alteration."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, (Standing Committee B), 27th November, 1930; col. 56.]
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    The Minister suggests that he is going to bring back barren acres to cultivation. Surely, if he is going to provide this startling object lesson, it must not be on the special land which he would need compulsory powers to acquire; it must be on these 1,000,000 acres which, he says, have gone out of cultivation. Anybody can farm good land. The farmer is tackling his difficulties with extraordinary resource at the present time, and, if there is anything in the contention of the right hon. Gentleman, he has to make good on the difficult land. There is any quantity of that land which can be got for £3, £4 and £5 an acre with the buildings thrown in, and it is without any justification that he should take these compulsory powers.
    I had an Amendment down which I was pressed to move by the National Farmers' Union to limit the right hon. Gentleman in these experiments to land which was uncultivated at the time of the passing of this Bill. Mr. Speaker did not call that Amendment, and no doubt he felt that the discussion had better be taken on the whole question of how we were to acquire the land, which, of course, involves what kind of land you are going to get. We know that most of the agricultural land in the country to-day can be acquired at a cost far below what has been spent on the buildings alone, with the land thrown in for nothing, and at present day values there is no justification whatever for imposing upon the possible sellers of land the fear and injustice of dispossession by compulsory powers.
    Dr. ADDISON: I am impressed by the fact that the right lion. Gentleman reads into this very much more than there is. I am glad to say that I have not yet heard of that large number of people all over the country who have been greatly alarmed by the accounts of what took place in the Committee. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has been somewhat misled.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I can give him correspondence from the National Farmers' Union who represent over 100,000 farmers.
    Dr. ADDISON: I think that, what the right hon. Gentleman says shows how little there was in it. The impression

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    which he gave to me, and which must have been received by many other hon. Members, was that what I had said in Committee had greatly alarmed a number of private individuals. Now we find what it really boils down to. It is another of the numerous representations the right hon. Gentleman has received, and which emanate from Bedford Square. That is another matter, and rather alters the appearance of the alarm. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman, if he had been introducing this Bill, would have insisted upon these powers. He knows as well as I do, and nearly every hon. Member on those benches knows it, that when a public authority acquires land, it has to be equipped with these powers of compulsory purchase in reserve. Cases have been recorded, and are so numerous, that I need not repeat them.
    I have no doubt that what the right hon. Gentleman says will prove to be correct, and that for the most part the corporation will be able to acquire land without difficulty. This is inserted only as a very proper safeguard to secure that in special cases the corporation is not charged, or sought to be charged, an unfairly high price, because we have found, as every Government has, by abundant experience, that the insertion of these powers and all that they involve as regards an independent and fair valuation under the law, means that people are willing to come to a fair arrangement, which is all that we want. It is very necessary that the position should be safeguarded by this power in the interest of economy. It is acknowledged to be the case in every other Bill the House has passed for the acquisition of land. I am quite sure that if the right hon. Gentleman had been in my place, he would have been a sturdy defender of this proposal, and would have based his defence upon public experience.
    Viscount WOLMER: I hope that the National Farmers' Union will take further note of the way in which the Minister has once more expressed his opinion of the representative organisation which speaks on behalf of the farmers of England. When my right hon. Friend quoted their views, the right hon. Gentleman—
    Dr. ADDISON: No; what the right hon. Gentleman did was to state that great alarm had been occasioned, that a number of individuals felt alarm, and then he showed that it resolved itself into a letter he had received from the National Farmers' Union, which is a different matter.
    Viscount WOLMER: When a union representing 100,000 farmers makes representations, the right hon. Gentleman says it shows how little there is in it. In a recent Debate, hon. Members opposite stressed the importance of representative unions in organised labour, but when the agriculturists of this country form themselves into a union to speak on their behalf, and which does so, the right hon. Gentleman treats that union with studied contempt. This is not the first time that he has done it. I suppose it is hopeless to expect the Minister to bring the Bill into conformity with his expressed intention. He has tried to assure us on this occasion as on previous occasions that what is in the Bill does not mean anything important, that he is not going to act upon it, and that we need not he alarmed about it. He bases his reason why this Clause is necessary on the ground that every Government when they are purchasing land find a Clause of this kind to be essential. Is this a Government purchasing land? We have been told by the right hon. Gentleman that this experiment in large-scale farming is not going to be a case of farming from Whitehall, that the Agricultural Corporation is going to be a body of business men, not controlled by Ministers or Government officials, but who will be put in exactly the same position as any other private corporation. When we wanted to limit the amount which this corporation can borrow, the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland said that we were putting them in an unfair position such as no private corporation would he subjected to.
    In this case, we are merely asking that the farm of the corporation should be in exactly the same position as any other farm in the country. The whole value of this experiment in large-scale farming depends upon the conditions under which the corporation farm being in every respect similar to those under which the ordinary farmers have to farm If the

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    right hon. Gentleman or I wish to start a private farm, we cannot go and take what land we want by acquiring it compulsorily. We have to find portions of land for farms where we can, and pay the market price. When we buy good land we generally have to buy a bit of land with it which is not so good. We have to take the disadvantages of the farm as well as the advantages. But the right hon. Gentleman is taking powers that will enable the corporation to aequire all the good land in a district without taking any of the poor land associated with it. That is starting from the outset on the basis that this corporation is to be a privileged body and not subjected to the same difficulties which beset ordinary farmers, and that must govern the whole of their farming operations from the moment they have acquired their farm. If this principle is to be acted upon it will vitiate the whole experiment.
    11.0 p.m
    The right hon. Gentleman would be consulting his own advantage better if he did not press this Clause. As we understand the Government proposition, it is not a question of the Government buying land. This is to be an independent corporation, a business board. They are going to be given their money and to be allowed to select their own areas, and we submit that they should do it exactly on the same basis as any other farmer has to select his area when he wants to start a farm. If the right hon. Gentleman will be content to start his operations on that basis, I can assure him that the result of the work which the corporation will be able to achieve will carry much more weight with the ordinary farmers than if they feel that the Corporation has acquired their land under privileged conditions. What is the problem which faces the Minister? It is the problem of how to make farming pay tinder the present difficult circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that one of the methods by which he desires to tackle this problem is to introduce a system of large-scale farming into this country, but that system, obviously, can only he usefully introduced in those parts of the country where the present methods of agriculture are not producing satisfactory results, and, therefore, there is no conceivable necessity for this corporation to be armed with powers of this sort. My right hon.
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    Friend has pointed out that if you go to the distressed parts of England you can buy 5,000 or 10,000 acres without the slightest difficulty at a price which a few years ago would be regarded as very cheap indeed.
    11.0 p.m.
    We submit that in insisting upon these powers the right hon. Gentleman will prejudice the whole work of the corporation from the start. He has told us that it is a commercial organisation and must be treated as such. We ask him to apply the same test and the same canons when they are choosing the site of their operations. If he insists upon this Sub-section he will launch this corporation under the suspicion of favouritism, which will go a long way towards prejudicing in the eyes of the ordinary farmers of this country any results they may achieve. The Minister of Agriculture can achieve nothing unless the experiments of this corporation carry conviction to the rank and file of the farmers. He agrees with that, and that he has to get the goodwill and confidence of the farming community. If he starts his experiment under circumstances which ordinary farmers do not regard as fair he will not get their confidence in the results that are achieved.
    Mr. DIXEY: I think I am entitled on a Bill of this importance to ask t he Minister of Agriculture a question, and I know that hon. Members opposite, whose knowledge of agriculture is so profound—[Interruption]—may also gain some information from the answers to the questions I propose to put. I was very disturbed, and I am sure a large number of other hon. Members on this side of the House were also disturbed, at the insult which was flung by the Minister of Agriculture—quite unlike what we have been led to expect from his general behaviour—at the Farmers' Union, a most respectable and reputable body of men—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite laugh at the mere mention of the Farmers' Union. What would they say if when the Miners' Federation was mentioned we all laughed on this side of the House. A farmer is as much entitled to the respect of this House as a miner, and the Farmers' Union, however much they may interfere in the politics of hon. Members opposite, are en titled to express an

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    opinion on their own industry and to a certain amount of respect from hon. Members in this House. The right hon. Gentleman made a remark, quite uncalled for, about these 100,000 fanners.
    Dr. ADDISON: I did not. This statement is calculated to make mischief between me and the National Farmers' Union. I said only, and said quite truly, that the statement that a very large number of people had been alarmed by what had taken place upstairs, led me to believe that that was a widespread impression amongst a large number of private persons. It turned out that the statement was based upon a letter which I understood the right hon. Gentleman had received from the National Farmers' Union in Bedford Square. I said that that was another matter altogether.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to be under any misapprehension. I told him that the House was alarmed because of what he had said upstairs. I did not say it was only in the case of the National Farmers' Union, but he more or less challenged me for the authority for my statement. I did not say it was only the National Fanners' Union. I have a letter in this box drawing my attention to the unsatisfactory proposals from the point of view of the National Farmers' Union, the members of which, among others, have been alarmed by this proposal for the compulsory purchase of land, which will give us no true comparison.
    Mr. DIXEY: Knowing the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, I should have thought that when he had made a mistake he would have had the courtesy to make a proper apology to a very reputable body of men. I think that hon. Members of the Liberal party, with their traditional regard for the agricultural community, will agree with me in saying that we are entitled to ask the Minister to admit that any representation made by the National Farmer's Union ought to have his most careful consideration. But I rose mainly to ask one or two questions. Does the right hon. Gentleman intend that the land which he takes under this Section shall be land of the ordinary kind for which farmers who desire to take farms can compete in the open market? It would
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    be grossly unfair if picked land were made available to the corporation. Other farmers are entitled to the same facilities for farming as any corporation. If the Minister is to carry on large-scale farming at all, he ought to take some of the thousands of acres which are available to any corporation throughout the country. It is a positive scandal that a Government which is supposed to have advisers to advise it, and is supposed to be endeavouring to do good for employment in this country, should come forward with a Measure like this, which is neither more nor less than a Measure for the confiscation of the best farming land of the country.
    Hon. Members on this side of the House who have had experience of Socialist corporations know that this corporation is likely to get hold of the land which is most useful for farming—[Interruption.] It is perfectly ridiculous that the Government should give no protection to farmers in this matter. I also ask the right hon. Gentleman what rates and taxes is this corporation going to pay? [HON. MEMBERS: "There are no rates!"] There is no reference of any sort to that subject and we do not know what taxation is going to fall on the corporation which will take over farm lands under the powers conferred by this Bill and will be in competition with the farmers in many areas. Is this corporation to have the same unfair advantages in this respect as the co-operative societies have in trading? Is this going to be another Socialist monopoly? As far as I am concerned, I shall vote very strongly for the deletion of this Sub-section and I shall be surprised to find hon. Members of the Liberal party voting with the Government on this issue, however strong the contact may be between them and the party opposite. As far as I know, the Liberal party remains an individualist party, and certainly one right hon. Gentleman who is still on the Front Bench of that party remains an individualist and desires to have decent, fair, individualistic competition. To my mind the Liberal party cannot support a proposal like this which is deliberately aimed at private enterprise and which seeks to eliminate the farmer, or to make his task more difficult. I would advise the right hon. Gentleman, whose position in the Cabinet, I am told, is by no means too

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    secure—[Laughter.] I cannot understand the Secretary of State for War laughing so vigorously at that remark, because, after his speech of last night, he, too, may feel some uncertainty. I would ask the Minister, as a last resort, to yield to the arguments which have been so ably put forward from this side and to withdraw this proposal.
    Sir D. HERBERT: The House ought to take notice of the powers given to the Minister under this Sub-section. If hon. Members will turn to the top of page 10 of the Bill, Clause 5, they will see it stated:
    "In this Part of this Act … the expression 'land,' except where the context otherwise requires, includes any interest in, or right or casement in or over, land."
    I do not think you could have anything wider. It means that the Minister's powers under this Sub-section extend to any sort or kind of real estate, or any right or interest in any real estate of any kind. Beside what the Minister may acquire, which is unlimited with regard to real property, he is unlimited as to the methods of doing it. He is unlimited apparently in expense, because he is to acquire it at the expense of somebody else, namely, the corporation. He can acquire any real property, pass it over to the corporation, and make them pay for it, without being asked by the corporation, and indeed, according to the wording of this Clause, even in spite of any objections by the corporation. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say what he proposes to do and for him to imagine or to dream what a future Minister of Agriculture may intend or wish to do, but I suggest once more that if the House is to do its duty, if it wants to give powers to a Minister to do a certain limited and specified thing for certain limited and specified purposes under limited and specified circumstances, it should say so.
    The effect of this Sub-section is that the Minister, at the expense of the corporation, could acquire any dwelling-house in this country, from an agricultural labourer's cottage or a miner's cottage to a squire's house or a peer's palace. He could acquire any of them under these powers, at the expense of the corporation, without being asked to do so and without their wishing it. I see smiles on the faces of Ministers on
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    the Government Bench. They cannot deny that they are giving the Minister unjustified and unnecessary powers, and they only sit there with a vacant smile. I can only say that it is a kind of smile which I am afraid I cannot describe in language which would not be considered to be rude and perhaps unparliamentary.
    Mr. DUNCAN: Come out into the Lobby and tell him!
    Sir D. HERBERT: I shall be happy to do so later on. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that his predecessor in office would have put in a similar power if he had been passing a similar Bill. In the first place, I am certain he would never have brought in such a Bill, and I have an idea in my mind that if he had found it necessary to insert in a Bill a power to acquire compulsorily land for the purposes of that Bill, he would have put some limitation on to the powers given to the Minister. I am certain of this, that if he had not done so, that if he had brought before the House a Clause of this kind, with no limit whatever, he would have had Amendments moved from his own benches and heavily supported and that he would have accepted them. The Minister has been trying very hard to deal with and to explain away previous utterances with regard to the protests and representations of the National Farmers' Union. I should like to try to help him in explaining what he meant, and I hope I am not explaining it wrongly if I put it in this way. He would have paid attention to representations from a large number of individuals, and when he hears what he believes to be the representations of a large number of individuals he asks for particulars. When he is told that it is the National Farmers' Union, he says, "Oh, that is a very different thing," and he, apparently, by his own word attaches no importance to them. He would attach importance presumably to 100,000 individuals who perhaps knew nothing about agriculture, but he attaches no importance whatever to the representations of a body which includes 100,000 professional agriculturists, and speaks for them.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKS: Somebody besides a mere farmer. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman has an obvious contempt for farmers, and I am adopting

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    his phraseology. Somebody besides a mere farmer is entitled to criticise this Sub-section. In can be criticised from a constitutional point of view and from a legal point of view, and we can see in it a very grave tendency, which is a characteristic of modern legislation, of giving an advantage to public authorities over private individuals. The defence which the Minister gave to this was very specious. For the moment it sounded fairly plausible. He said it was a mere safeguard to prevent a powerful corporation being held up to ransom. It is rather a pathetic beginning to this gigantic organisation which the right hon. Gentleman is going to impose on the farming community. He is beginning in a spirit of timidity when he asks for safeguards for this powerful organisation, but we must remember that when a great corporation or even the State has sought to exercise sovereign powers over the Constitution, they have always called it "safeguards." I suppose that when the Star Chamber was imposed on this country the judges who sat upon it would have said that it was a great, safeguard to the Constitution. When the right hon. Gentleman says that this is a safeguard for this gigantic corporation, it is purely a safeguard and nothing else. The great point about a safeguard is that it should be expressed in moderate language, and that there should be a limitation to such a safeguard. Even in our policy of Safeguarding there are limitations. But there is absolutely no limitation to the right hon. Gentleman's safeguards. He requires a general power to seize any land; I will not quote a Latin phrase, because the right hon. Gentleman would not understand it, but he is trying to acquire any right from hell up to heaven.
    This so-called safeguard may be an instrument of tyranny and oppression not only to every farmer but to every other peaceable owner of land. I think the right hon. Gentleman said this power had frequently been exercised before, and it is absolutely necessary under the numerous Acts under which the public authorities are authorised to acquire land; but here the State is coming out as a competitor with private farmers and is going to acquire their land. Surely that is a very different matter from acquiring land for a railway or same
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    other public purpose. Here the State comes into direct competition with farmers. The right hon. Gentleman is well known for his extravagance, and I have no confidence in his powers of securing agreement. He would either have to acquire bad land or good land. If it is bad land, what is the use of the right hon. Gentleman's compulsory powers 7 He will merely be following the precedent set when he was in the service of another right hon. Gentleman some years ago. But if it be good land, it will mean the dispossession of, perhaps, some members of the National Farmers' Union which he affects to despise so much, and whose representations he regards as so much less important than the communications of private individuals. The right hon. Gentleman ought to put into this Sub-section certain safeguards and modifications to this great compulsory power which he is acquiring. The right hon. Gentleman is very modest in his claims, but it may be that he will be succeeded by one who is not so moderate, one who will regard this Clause as a general power to buy land, irrespective of agreement, throughout the length and breadth of the country, from Land's End to John o' Groat's.
    Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAiN: I do not rise to continue the controversy which arose between the right hon. Gentleman opposite and my right hon. Friends on this bench as to the exact degree of esteem which he accords to the National Farmers' Union, but I must be permitted to say that I find it a little difficult to ascertain what kind of representation the right hon. Gentleman does consider worthy of his consideration. If it is individuals who are affected, and who appeal, he says, broadly and loftily, after all, individual interests must give way to the general welfare; and if it is a union representative of a large body of common interests—a very large body of common interests—in this very scattered enterprise of farming, he says, "Oh, it is only Bedford Square." Individual representatives do not appear to be worth attending to and combined representations are debarred from a hearing. [Interruption.]
    I have risen to put a point to the right hon. Gentleman. It is a point which was put by my noble Friend the Member for Aldershot (Viscount

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    Wolmer), but it has not yet been answered. There is a large number of farms which had bad land which can only be worked successfully by attaching it to the good land. Take the county of Wiltshire, which I have visited. I remember seeing the rich watered meadow land and downland that had been ploughed up by some ancestor in the early years of last century to the regret of his successors. The downland was apart from the fat land in the valley, but it was so divided that every farm had some of the fat land in the valley and had to take some of the lean land as well. If the right hon. Gentleman insists upon compulsion, is it not, a fair plea to make that, if you take part of a farm, it shall be at the option of the owner that you shall take the whole of it. I find a repetition of the same principle in the First Schedule, Part I, paragraph (b), which provides:
    (b) In lieu of section ninety-two of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act, 1845, the following provisions shall have effect—

    No person shall be required to sell any land which forms part of any park, garden, or pleasure ground attached to and usually occupied with a dwelling-house or forms part of the home farm usually occupied with a mansion house, if he is willing and able to sell the whole of the park, garden, pleasure ground or home farm with the dwelling-house or mansion house;

    The right hon. Gentleman recognises that it would be unfair to make the kind of division of which I have spoken, but he has excluded the tenant farmer. If the right hon. Gentleman passes this part of the Bill in the form he is asking us to adopt, he certainly should give to the owner of a farm the same protection which he gives to the owner of a park or mansion.
    Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I am concerned with this Sub-section, not as a lawyer, but directly as a farmer. It gives to the Minister power to acquire compulsorily land for the purpose of these large-scale farms. They are to be experimental farms, and, therefore, the land required must necessarily be fairly good land. All the fairly good land—indeed, all the land that it is possible to occupy to-day—is occupied by farmers at the present time, and, therefore, this Sub-section gives the Minister power to evict a sitting occupier from such land. For many years the
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    greatest hardship suffered by the occupier of agricultural land was lack of security of tenure. In the past he might became an occupier of land and spend time and money in improving its productivity, and then find that some wicked landlord turned him out and let the land to some other farmer at a higher rent. Various Acts of Parliament have been passed by this House to remedy that evil, and to-day the sitting tenant is in a more fortunate position, because he has some definite security against eviction by his landlord. To-night, by this Sub-section, we are removing that security of tenure which has been obtained for the present occupiers of land after so many years of effort. The wicked landlord is still unable to evict the present occupier of land, but a still more wicked Government, under this Bill, is to be given power to evict him. Surely some consideration should be given to the man who is at present occupying in extremely difficult circumstance's and farming the land of this country.
    This Bill, apparently, ignores the ordinary farmer. The man who is farming at the present time is going through very difficult circumstances. For the last two or three years he has been losing money, but he is holding on to his land, hoping against hope for those better times when the present Government will have fulfilled their pledge to make farming really pay. I appeal to the House for some consideration for that unfortunate individual. Under this Bill no one seems to consider the present occupier of land, and, therefore, he is to be squashed out of existence. Apparently the purpose of this Bill is to squash the ordinary small farmer out of existence. Under this Subsection he is to be dispossessed in favour of the large farmer; under a later Clause he is to be dispossessed for the sake of the smallholder. From both sides, therefore, he is to be squashed out of existence.
    I am sure that, on this matter I shall receive the sympathy of hon. Members on the benches below the Gangway on this side, because, as representing the ordinary small farmer, I am somewhat in their position. I am likely to be squashed out of existence by the representatives of the larger men, and they are likely to be squashed out of existence by the parties represented by Mem-

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    bers above the Gangway on this side and on the benches opposite. Therefore, in pleading for an opportunity of continued existence for the small farmer, I am sure I shall have the whole hearty support of hon. Members below the Gangway. I appeal to the Minister to give consideration to the ordinary small farmer who has in the past been carrying on his agricultural operations under very difficult circumstances.
    Major-General Sir ROBERT HUTCHISON: I have every sympathy with the protests which have been voiced from Members who represent English constituencies against the application of these very wide powers, which will undoubtedly affect many farmers who are now cultivating good land in England. But I think the powers extended to the Secretary of State for Scotland through the Department of Agriculture are even more resented in the North, because undoubtedly the total amount of arable land that is cultivated in Scotland is very much greater in proportion than that land cultivated in England, and by these powers you are going to create a situation of anxiety for a great many farmers who are now farming some of our fine land in the East of Scotland. Undoubtedly, if the Secretary of State and the Board of Agriculture get these powers, they will look round for fine land in the Lothians or elsewhere in which to make a success of these experiments, and I feel that we ought to have from the Under-Secretary, if he feels able to give it, some assurance that the farmer who is now cultivating his farm will have protection against the acquisition of these powers. It is no laughing matter, because in Scotland, where we are struggling with very depressed conditions, the only people who are able to show success in the face of very adverse conditions are the men who are now farming the fine land, and, therefore, it only stands to reason that any man who is in a position to make these experiments and to make the Bill a success is bound to look for really fine land. If you carry out these experiments on really fine land you are not giving real representation of what they call fair average farming.
    We want some safeguard that these tenant farmers are not going to be dis-
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    possessed of their holding because, if the powers are given, there is always the danger that they will be used. We are here to protect those who sent us here against giving unnecessary powers to Departments, there is a great deal to be said for the protests which have been made on behalf of English farmers, but much more so is it the case for Scottish farmers, because it has been demonstrated more than once during the earlier part of the Clause that these experiments are quite unsuited to our Scottish land, where we have the very finest type of farmer and farm servants, and it is only by their great efforts that we can get the returns that we do get.
    A great many of our farmers who are now farming good land will view these powers with very great suspicion, and I hope the Government will give us some assurance that the tenant farmers on these fine lands will have some protection against the action of the Department. It is well known that many of us hold the view that these tests, at least as regards Scotland, are a sheer waste of money, but, if they are going to be authorised by a majority in this House, at least those men who are now farming the land ought to be protected against action which can be applied by the Department of Agriculture under the powers of this Bill. I hope that some assurance will be given or that sonic statement will be made from the Front bench that they do not propose to exercise force in turning out men who are now fighting their way to success in farming the land. I cannot for the life of me imagine why the Government cannot be satisfied with the ordinary powers of purchase. One knows that there is any amount of land to be bought at moderate prices. The omission of this Sub-section ought to be agreed to by this House, and I certainly shall support the Amendment.
    Dr. ADDISON: I rise to intervene by permission of the House in response to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. In the case where it is proposed to purchase a place and to leave out, say, the house, or garden, or whatever it is, or the amenities of the place, it is provided, as I said in my interjection, that the owner can require them to buy the lot. There is nothing new in that. That is common form in other matters, but it does not explicitly cover the point which he put to me. I am ad-

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    vised, as the existing law stands, that in the case where the Corporation wishes to buy a portion of the main farm, such a situation is extremely unlikely to arise. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think that it is very unlikely indeed to arise [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]. Because, as a matter of fact, the Corporation will quite easily be able to buy whole farms, and it is almost unthinkable that they will want to pick out the best bits. [Interruption]. They would not be so hard-hearted as many a private landowner. I want to meet the point, which is quite a fair point. As the law stands, of course, if they did that, they would have to pay a man as much by way if compensation, as experience shows us would be equivalent to buying the lot. It is pretty clear that a man's clam for severance in a case of that kind would be very high indeed, and it would be awarded to him by any arbitrator, as has been done when portions of land have been taken for roads and other purposes. In that way, the case is really covered, hut in so far as it is not otherwise covered, I will look into the matter. I think my reference to the existing law covers the case, hut, I will leave it to see if there is anything further that is required to be done to meet the case.
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY: I am not quite sure from his conciliatory remarks that the Minister really has grasped the point. Here, after all, you have specifically provided in your Bill that the man with a mansion and a farm may not he compelled to sever and he will be able to require the Corporation to buy the whole. In the case of the working farmer there is no such provision. The right hon. Gentleman says the working farmer can apply for compensation in respect of severance and can get it; but he has lost his farm and his job, too. [Interruption.] If hon. Members opposite would remember they are a Government party, they would perhaps behave themselves differently.
    Mr. DALLAS: Members on this side expect the same courtesy as the right hon. Gentleman expects.
    Lord E. PERCY: If I may return to my argument, the man with a mansion house—I will not interrupt the efforts of the Under-Secretary for Scotland to instruct the Minister of Agriculture for one moment.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: That is a most offensive and uncalled for remark. I was paying considerable attention to what the right hon. Gentleman was saying.
    Lord E. PERCY: The hon. Gentleman was no doubt paying attention to what I was saying, but he is preventing the Minister in charge from paying any attention at all. The point I was putting was that the man with the mansion and park has precisely the same right of compensation for severance as the man with the farm. Why is compensation for severance thought to be sufficient in the case of the working farmer, while the man who has a mansion and park is entitled not only to compensation for severance, but to additional consideration for losing half his property and to have the whole of it bought? It is not sufficient for the Minister to say that the farmer has compensation for severance. That applies to both cases. What is so extraordinary about the Bill and the attitude of the Government is that, while special consideration is given to the owner of the mansion and park, when it comes to the case of the working farmer he must take his chance under the existing law and under legislation by reference. This point is worth driving home because of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks which have already been quoted. Let me remind the House again of what he said in Committee:
    "Take the case of hillside grazings. I have a case, fully authenticated, in Wales where, by the application of modern methods, the capacity of extensive hillside grazings to hold and feed stock, has been more than doubled. I think it is fair to say that even in Wales alone there are at Least 500,000 to 1,000,000 acres of good hillside grazings which might, if we had anybody big enough to undertake the job and show how it could be done, be brought to much greater use. That will not he depopulating the countryside. But one cannot undertake the experiment as long as the thing is in the hands of a multitude of people who have only little patches of their own."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B) 27th November 1930; col. 57.]
    That is what the right hon. Gentleman has said. That is the policy he has laid down. That is the policy he has laid down for crofters in Scotland, for graziers in Wales, for hill farmers in Northumberland. They have only got little patches of their own. The State had better take them over, and that will

    1971
    not be de-populating the countryside. Perhaps not, but it will mean depriving the countryside of men who own their own land, and cultivate it themselves. I know that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government do not intend to come before this House as the successors of the Scottish evictors. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland does not intend to do that. The curious thing is that he cannot understand how exactly like those evictors he is. He cannot understand because he will not read history. There is one sufficient proof that he does not read it; if he did, he would not use precisely the same language that those evictors used. Word for word, line by line, paragraph by paragraph, he uses the same language.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Quote it.
    Lord E. PERCY: The notable thing about the whole of the Government is that they do not intend to do anything that they are doing. They are simply drifing along, precisely in the same direction. Now, the right hon. Gentleman comes along and says the words that I have quoted about a multitude of people who have only little patches of their own. While using those words, he brings forward a Clause by means of which he says: "The big man with a mansion and a park shall have special rights under this Clause, but the small man, the multitude of people with only little patches of their own, shall not be provided for."
    Dr. ADDISON: They all get the same treatment.
    Lord E. PERCY: Then why not leave the man with the park to get his full compensation? Why provide for him specially and not for the small man?
    Dr. ADDISON: I put that concession in at the behest of your friends. If you want me to take it out I will gladly do so.
    Lord E. PERCY: Now we know. At what stage did the right hon. Gentleman put it in at the behest of our friends on this side? At what stage and in what circumstances. Will the right hon. Gentleman answer that question?
    Dr. ADDISON: Certainly.
    Lord E. PERCY: Then I will give way.
    Dr. ADDISON: The matter was held to be ambiguous under the existing law. It was in the Bill in a modified form from another Act, and I think it was the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley) who explicitly brought forward the case. It was made particularly clear. I forget now the circumstances in which the alteration was made, but it was at the special request of the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest, and I repeat my promise that if the right hon. Gentleman wants me to take it out I will gladly do so.
    12 m.
    Lord E. PERCY: The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture says that he cannot answer the question without notice but he is very ready to make allegations. I was not on the Committee but hold in my hands a copy of the original Bill as it was introduced and perhaps I may read the Schedule from that original copy.
    Dr. MORGAN: Do you want it taken out or not?
    Lord E. PERCY: This is the Schedule in the original Bill:
    "No person shall ho required to sell any land which forms part of any park, garden, or pleasure ground attached to and usually occupied with a dwelling-house or forms part of the home farm usually occupied with a mansion house, if he is willing and able to sell the whole of the park, garden, pleasure ground or home farm with the dwelling-house or mansion house;"
    And those are the words which the right hon. Gentleman says were put in during the Committee stage at the request of the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest.
    Dr. MORGAN: Do you want them taken out?
    Lord E. PERCY: At the present moment I am confining myself to the question as to whether the Minister of Agriculture is not misleading the House. He has made a statement which on the face of his Bill cannot be substantiated. Let me return to his previous statement. He says that he put this provision in at the request of hon. Members on this side of the House. At whose request? Under what circumstances? In the course of what negotiations?
    Dr. ADDISON: I am well aware of the provisions of the original Bill but we had a long debate on this point and I made a number of alterations—I have not got them here—and they were made at the request of the right hon. and gallant Member for the New Forest in order to make this particular provision clear.
    Lord E. PERCY: I have read the same words as those which were read by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain). The accusation of the Minister of Agriculture is that these words are in the Bill because of the special request made by hon. Members of this side of the House. The case is that it did immediately occur to the Minister of Agriculture that the mansion house needed protection but it did not occur to him that the working farmer needed protection—
    Dr. MORGAN: Do you want them taken out or not?
    Dr. MORGAN: Do you want them taken out or not?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not continually interrupt. That is not the way in which debates should be conducted.
    Dr. MORGAN: You were not in the House, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister gave a promise that if the noble Lord wanted the Clause withdrawn he was perfectly prepared to withdraw it. I am suggesting that if the noble Lord wants it withdrawn he should ask that it be withdrawn.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The only question that arose on the point of Order was that the hon. Member should cease interrupting.
    Lord E. PERCY: All I need say in conclusion is this: I have just had handed to me the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Standing Committee debate on this subject. It is quite true that the right hon. Member for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley) did move a certain Amendment. Am I wrong in stating that that Amendment was resisted by the Government, that the Committee divided, and that the Ayes were 20 and the Noes 31? We have heard the information that the Minister has now given to the House. Let us turn our minds back to all that the Minister has said in this debate—all about people with small patches of land who cannot be expected to cultivate them properly, all about the distinction between the rich man in the mansion and the working farmer, all that he has said about the National Farmers' Union, and how he has told the House "You have no right to say that there are many private individuals who are alarmed by my remarks, because I have not heard anything about it yet." Where should he hear about it except in this House? Has this House lost its right to bring before the Government of the day what private individuals are thinking? Is the Minister to pay no attention to anything that is not whispered in his ear by his permanent officials at the Ministry? Does he pay no attention whatever to what he hears in this House?
    In this short Debate we have had sufficient experience of what the Minister's remarks and information mean, and I can only conclude this: There is a passage in a certain book about the man who goes about—I quote from memory—scattering fire and death and saying that it is only sport. About the National Farmers' Union, the smallholders and so on, the right hon. Gentleman goes about scattering fire and death, and saying it is only sport, and he does not really mean it. But in that book, that man is characterised as "the fool."
    Mr. OSWALD LEWIS: It seems to me that the real point at issue between those who desire that this Sub-section should be omitted, and those who desire that the Government should retain these compulsory powers, is whether the Executive should, to the extent described in the Bill, interfere with the liberty of the private individual. Except for confining a man's personal movements, it is hardly

    1975
    possible to imagine a greater infringement of individual liberty than the compulsory acquisition of his property. Of course, on this question of what the individual should be allowed to do and what powers the Executive should have over him there is a great divergence of opinion between the supporters of the Government and Members on this side of the House. Supporters of the Government take the view that the more the Government does for the individual, and the more it controls him, the better it is for the individual, whereas we take the view that the greater the amount of individual liberty and enterprise, the better it is for the individual and for the country. But we have been reminded that there are some Members of this House who belong neither to the party which supports the Government nor to the Conservative party. They all use the name of the old Liberal party, a party which had, in its clay, a great tradition of standing up for liberty of the individual. One right hon. Gentleman has addressed us from those benches tonight, and he condemned the Government proposals most emphatically. It would be interesting to know whether his colleagues, or, should I say his ex-colleagues, agree with him in this matter. It may be urged that the Executive constantly restricts individual liberty and that the Minister is justified in asking for restriction in this case. I submit that the onus of proof is on him. He should show
    the House that there is real necessity for these compulsory powers. The case of railways has been mentioned, but I submit that there is no parallel at all between the necessity of acquiring property in making a railway line from one town to another, and the necessity which the Minister foresees under this Bill. Clearly, if you wish to make a railway from one point to another, you cannot bend the line about, in order to avoid particular bits of property which are too dear for you to buy. But, if the Corporation which the Government propose to set up desires to buy a farm, say, in Essex, and if they cannot come to an agreement about the price, there is nothing to prevent them going to some other county and buying a farm there. I have yet to learn that the eighteen months' efforts of right hon. Gentlemen opposite to make farming pay have been so successful that there is a rush for agricultural land at the present time. Surely, even the Minister knows that farms are easy and not difficult to acquire at the present time. I submit that, as the Minister is unable to show to the House any serious necessity for these powers, the House should not grant them.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, a ad claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 192; Noes, 117.

    Division No. 110.]

    AYES.

    [12.16 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Cape, Thomas

    Gould, F.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Charleson, H. C.

    Gray, Milner

    Aitchlson, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Chater, Daniel

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Clarke, J. S.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Alpaes, J. H.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Ammon Charles George

    Compton, Joseph

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Arnott. John

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Daqgar, George

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Dallas, George

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Ayles, Walter

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Dukes, C.

    Harbord, A.

    Barr, James

    Duncan, Charles

    Hardie, George D.

    Batey, Joseph

    Ede, James Chuter

    Haycock, A. W.

    Bellamy, Albert

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Benson, G.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Herriotts, J.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Foot, Isaac

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Forgan, Dr. Robert

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Freeman, Peter

    Hollins, A.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Burgess, F. G.

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Burain, Dr. E. L.

    GilI, T. H.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Glassey, A. E.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Cameron, A. G.

    Gossling, A. G.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Middleton, G.

    Shinwell, E.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Mills, J. E.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Mliner, Major J.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Kinley, J.

    Montague, Frederick

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Lang, Gordon

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Morley, Ralph

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Lathan, G.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Lawson, John James

    Muff, G.

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Leach, W.

    Oliver, George Harold (Iikeston)

    Sullivan, J.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Palin, John Henry

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Perry, S. F.

    Tout, W. J.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Townend, A. E.

    Longden, F.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Potts, John S.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lunn, William

    Pybus, Percy John

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Welsh, James (Paisley)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Westwood, Joseph

    McElwee, A.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    White, H. G.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Ritson, J.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    McKinlay, A.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Williams Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    McShane, John James

    Rowson, Guy

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Mansfield, W.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Marcus, M.

    Scott, James

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Markham, S. F.

    Scurr, John

    Wise, E. F.

    Marley, J.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Young, R. S. (lslington, North)

    Mathers, George

    Sherwood, G. H.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

    Matters, L. W.

    Shield, George William

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Paling.

    Melville, Sir James

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Messer, Fred

    NOES.

    Acland Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Albery, Irving James

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Allen, Lt.-Col Sir William (Armagh)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonol Francis E.

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Foberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Balniel, Lord

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bracken, B.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Savery, S. S.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Sexton, Sir James

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hennessy, Major sir G. R. J.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.SirJ.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Christie, J. A.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Lewis, Oswald, (Coichester)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Coivllie, Major D. J.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Cranborne, Viscount

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Dixey, A. C.

    Morrison Hugh (Wilts, Sallsbury)

    Sir George Bowyer and Sir George Penny.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bull."
    The House divided: Ayes, 188; Noes, 119.

    Division No. 111.]

    AYES.

    [12.28 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Muff, G.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Harbord, A.

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Hardie, George D.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Haycock, A. W.

    Oliver, George Harold (Iikeston)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Palin, John Henry

    Arnott, John

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Herriotts, J.

    Perry, S. F.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Ayles, Walter

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Potts, John S.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hollins, A.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Barr, James

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Batey, Joseph

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Bellamy, Albert

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Ritson, J.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Romeril, H. G.

    Benson, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Rowson, Guy

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Kinley, J.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Lang, Gordon

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Scott, James

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Lathan, G.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Shield, George William

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Lawson, John James

    Shinwell, E.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Leach, W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Cooks, Frederick Seymour

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Compton, Joseph

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Daggar, George

    Longden, F.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Dallas, George

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Snowden,Thomas (Accrington)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lunn, William

    Stamford, Thomas W.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Strauss, G. R.

    Dukes, C.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Sullivan, J.

    Duncan, Charles

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Ede, James Chuter

    McElwee, A.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    McKinlay, A.

    Tout, W. J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Townend, A. E.

    Elmley, Viscount

    McShane, John James

    Wallace, H. W.

    Foot, Isaac.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Freeman, Peter

    Mansfield, W.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Marcus, M.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith. N.)

    Markham, S. F.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    Marley, J.

    White, H. G.

    Gill, T. H.

    Mathers, George

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Glassey, A. E.

    Matters, L. W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Melville, Sir James

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Gould, F.

    Messer, Fred

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Middleton, G.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Gray, Milner

    Mills, J. E.

    Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mliner, Major J.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Montague, Frederick

    Wise, E. F.

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Morley, Ralph

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Paling.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mort, D. L.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Albery, Irving James

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Chamberlain Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Bracken, B.

    Christie, J. A.

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Astor, Viscountess

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Butler, R. A.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Balniel, Lord

    Campbell, E. T.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Savery, S. S.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittoms

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Dixey, A. C.

    Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O (W'morland)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Fermoy, Lord

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Flson, F. G. Clavering

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Reid, David D. (County Down)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Sir George Bowyer and Sir G. Penny.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I rise to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned." I do not do so necessarily in order to insist that it shall stop at this very moment, but to ascertain from the Minister in charge how far he intends to go and whether he can make any proposals.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon. gentleman had better wait. There is no business before the House. There is a further Amendment on page 481 standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) which I had not selected. It has been put to me that, owing to an Amendment by the noble Lord for West. Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) having been accepted in an amended form by the Government, there is need for some short discussion on this subject. Therefore I have selected it.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move in page 4, line 7, to leave out the word "summary," and to insert instead thereof the words "full statement."
    The point which I wish briefly to make is that, partly in view of the Amendment which has already been made, but above all in view of the importance of ensuring that, if this £1,000,000 is spent, we get value for it, I am quite satisfied that the draft of this Clause needs further amendment. If all we are to get in the annual report of the operations of this Corporation in carrying out the large-
    1982
    scale farming experiments is merely a summary, we get nothing of real value from the point of view of scientific evidence as to whether economies have been effected in cultivating land on a large scale, as against a small scale, and in carrying out particular mechanised processes. It is all important that in the annual report, which this Corporation presents to Parliament dealing with these bonanza farms, that each bonanza, farm shall be displayed with its full costing accounts, showing exactly what is the proceeds of each particular crop yielded on the farm and precisely what has been the cost of production of the individual crop. It is only by getting accounts in that form that we can get anything of real value. I gather.that the Minister is sympathetic to the idea—that statistical evidence of this kind is what he is after. If that be his intention, it is all important that the Statute governing the whole operation of this Corporation shall not limit the Corporation in presenting the annual account as is done under the system of drafting in the Bill, but that there shall be a full statement of accounts of the Corporation. I think there is no reason whatever why this Amendment should not be accepted. It would be an immense improvement on the Bill.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

    1983
    I am sorry that it is necessary for me to interrupt the discussion between my right hon. Friend and the Minister who is naturally desirous of replying to his argument. I ask leave to move the adjournment of the discussion to ascertain from the Government what they intend to do with respect to keeping us sitting. It is a very important Bill, and we have had a useful and fruitful discussion, but there are limits to human endurance.
    An HON. MEMBER: You are one of them.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members should not make these offensive remarks.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: If too great a strain is placed upon Members or Ministers I do not think it conduces to the work done, or to the general good temper which we desire to preserve in the House. After all, we know that the right hon. Gentleman has only recently come out of a sick room and is only now able again to take part in the business of this House. I think the discussion on the last Amendment, if I may say so without offence, shows the strain that has been put upon him by the continuous discussion is as much as he ought to asked to endure. It is not unreasonable that we should adjourn, so that he can bring a fresh mind to the continuance of the discussion. I think he would be able to help the House more, and, at any rate, it will not lead him into the error which, owing to fatigue and exhaustion, he was led into more than once on the last Amendment.
    Dr. ADDISON: Some time before the right hon. Gentleman was here, at all events to my notice, in fact quite early on, I anxiously raised the question as whether it was possible to have some understanding as to proceedings on this Bill. I am sorry to say, and the right hon. Gentleman will probably hear with regret, that my advances met with no happy reception. We have just got to go on with it. We must make a virtue of adversity and do the best we can. Early in the evening we had a long debate on a trivial Amendment. I regard it as so. We discussed the word "let" for 2½hours and some other Amendments were discussed for a very long time. We have
    1984
    discussed Clause 1 for two whole days. A very large part of that time has been taken up with discussions which were unduly prolonged, and worse than that. It is common knowledge that when it comes to this time of night a very large number of Members have missed their last travelling facilities. We have made such extraordinary slow progress that we might as well use our time until we catch our morning trains.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: I am sure that everybody on this side of the House feels, with the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Adjournment of the Debate, a great deal of sympathy with the Minister in his physical difficulties—[Interruption.] After all some regard must he paid to the usefulness of Ministers in connection with the Party machine. I should like to support what my right hon. Friend said when moving the adjournment—that it is perfectly clear that the Minister for some reason or other—[Interruption.] He has apparently forgotten what his Bill contained when it was introduced into the House, because, in answer to the noble Lord, he said that a certain Clause was a result of amendment when it was a portion of his own Schedule introduced by himself on the Second Reading. He has, therefore, if I may respectfully say so, shown by the handling of the last Amendment that the progress of the stage of the Bill will not be assisted if the Debate continues at this time of the night. I respectfully suggest that in the interests of progress the motion for the Adjournment of the Debate ought to be accepted.
    Mr. GUINNESS: To clear up any misunderstanding, I must correct the right hon. Gentleman. The Minister suggests that we on this side of the House were from the first this afternoon desirous of a late sitting. The right hon. Gentleman said that he made inquiries in various directions and got the answer that he must go on with the Bill. Early in the sitting I told him that I must discuss the matter with my friends, that at the moment I did not think it was right to say how long we should devote to the various Amendments. After dinner, I added I should no doubt be in a position to judge better. I told him that, as a result of discussions, we did not think it possible to specify the particular Amend-

    1985
    ments requiring particular consideration and that we should be given time for discussion and that he should let the Bill be carried on in accordance with the points that arose.
    I suggested that we should have two more days. [Interruption.] It may sound a lot to hon. Members who do not know the Bill, but I may tell them that we had twelve days in Standing Committee, and those twelve days were very hard clays, sitting morning, afternoon and, sometimes evening, and with the very unusual power of kangaroo selection of Amendments entrusted to the Chairman of the Committee. At the end of the time, we came to an arrangement with the Government that we would let them have the Bill by Christmas; otherwise, we could well have gone on for another five or six days. In view of the kangaroo which shut out a great deal of discussion which might legitimately have been raised upstairs, and the fact that even under those conditions we had twelve days of truncated discussion in Committee, it was not unreasonable to ask for a total of five days for the remaining stages on the Floor of the House. Of course, it is for the Government to judge what suits their own convenience, but I do not think they will get the Bill any quicker by driving the Opposition unreasonably, although there is no question of expedients of obstruction, because there are ample substantial points to discuss. But what the right hon. Gentleman told us in answer to my right hon. Friend convinces me that he is suffering from brain fag. That is the only possible explanation for his halucination that when he approached us earlier in the evening he was refused any settlement, and so he must carry on with no kind of arrangement.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: I suggest that it is hardly fair to blame the Opposition for the somewhat protracted discussions which took place on earlier Amendments. It is only fair that the House should understand that after two hours' discussion an Amendment of my own was in substance accepted. The Minister for Agriculture had said that the Bill is going slowly and that we have been a long time over this Clause. Under this Clause we are spending at least £1,000,000, and I am bound to say that I do not think that £500,000 a day is
    1986
    exceedingly slow spending. The Amendments are of very great importance and want consideration. If the right hon. Gentleman would make up his mind rather more in advance as to what he means to do by this Bill a great deal of discussion could be avoided. An Amendment which I proposed that the accounts should be kept in strict form and that the Corporation should be valued by a professional valuer annually was resisted on the ground that the farmers would be in districts so remote from civilisation that the conveyance of valuers to them would be prohibitive. Day after day in Committee we were asking for guidance as to where the farmers were to be and what kind of farming was to be carried on, and we could get no information. None of us who served on the Committee had any kind of idea what kind of farming is to be carried on. I would suggest that if the right hon. Gentleman would accept this Motion now and make up his mind as to what he does mean, we could get on very much quicker.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The Motion before the House at this moment is whether we should adjourn or not and the point has been put from the Opposition bench that we ought to adjourn because human nature has its limits and because we could get on very much better and deal with the subject very much more clearly if we postponed the discussion until another day. I agree in the main with the account of the negotiations which took place informally earlier to-night with a view to arranging procedure if it were possible in good time so that if arrangements could not be made hon. Members in all parts of the House would know. But the late Minister for Agriculture omitted, I am sure inadvertently, to inform the House, that when I suggested to him that we, might have a deal to arrange a time limit or time table the right hon. Gentleman sitting beside him assured me that there was no possibility at the moment of arranging anything, partly because all the Members had been warned to be here all night.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that I ever said anything of the kind?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: No, as a matter of fact, those words were used by the late Minister for Agriculture.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I did not say so. I said that Members having been warned to be here we must discuss the matter with them.
    1.0 a.m.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: if the right hon. Gentleman says that the purport of his remark was that his friends had been warned to be here I. accept it. But that is precisely the point he omitted, inadvertently, to tell the House when he was on his feet a moment ago. The facts are these. Most hon. Members have lost their last trains and they have no chance of getting home, and it is unfair—I put it no higher—that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who could have made an arrangement perfectly easy through the ordinary channels to have the business conducted on some time table, should have declined to make an arrangement—they are able to get to their homes after the last omnibuses have gone—and should then move "That the Debate be now adjourned." Many hon. Members on this side of the House will be left in a position of very great difficulty as to what to do to get home. I trust, now that we are here, that we shall proceed as speedily as we can in the best tempers possible—it is not always easy—to go over as many Amendments as we possibly can, and it might be time enough to ask the Government to consider this matter six or seven hours after this.
    Viscount WOLMER: I do not think I have ever listened to such an argument as that we should discuss a Bill because hon. Members do not want to walk home. They are making many electors walk to the poll. Perhaps we shall soon have a proposal for free passes for the omnibuses. I wish to protest against the fact that this Bill was kangarooed in Committee in a way in which a measure of similar importance has never been kangarooed in the history of Parliament. Part of Clause 3 was never discussed at all. The Chairman of the Committee, for reasons which he was not bound to confide to the Committee, and which we had no right to ask, decided to take no Amend-
    ments on that part of the Bill and it was never discussed in Committee, as most Bills generally are discussed. There were a great many Amendments which we, at any rate, were anxious to discuss, but we had no opportunity of discussing them, and we expressly reserved the right, which is inherent in the Opposition, to raise, on Report, matters which had never been discussed in Committee.
    I venture to say that it is an absolute scandal when important parts of the Bill have never been discussed in Committee to try and take the Bill in the small hours of the morning, when there is no chance of publicity, and when we all know perfectly well that the points we bring out will not be reported in the Press. The Government wish this Bill to proceed without adequate consideration, and, in view of the treatment which we received in Committee, we ought to receive some accommodation on Report stage. I would venture to say to the right hon. Gentleman opposite that we would make better progress if he did one of either of two things: if he would let us know if he would accept some of our Amendments or give some reason why he cannot do so. He seems to be under the impression that a simple refusal on his part is adequate to satisfy our desires. I can assure him that so long as he adopts that attitude he will find us stubborn. We have no desire to be stubborn; we have proposed a series of Amendments some of which, at any rate, he could have accepted without jeopardising the usefulness of his Bill in the slightest degree. Not only did he refuse to accept them, but he refused to give a reason why he could not accept them, and, if we make slow progress, it is entirely due to the way the Bill had been handled.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes 179; Noes, 114.

    Division No. 112.]

    AYES.

    [1.8 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Arnott, John

    Barr, James

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Batey, Joseph

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Palin, John Henry

    Benson, G.

    Hollins, A.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Perry, S. F.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Paters, Dr. Sidney John

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddenfield)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Potts, John S.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Pybus, Percy John

    Burgess, F. G.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Raynes, W. R.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Kinley, J.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lang, Gordon

    Romeril, H. G.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lathan, G.

    Rowson, Guy

    Clarke, J. S.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Scott, James

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawson, John James

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Daggar, George

    Lawther W. (Barnard Castle)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Dallas, George

    Leach, W.

    Shield, George William

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Shinwell, E.

    Dukes, C.

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Simmons, C. J.

    Duncan, Charles

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Longden, F.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Foot, Isaac

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Freeman, Peter

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    McElwee, A.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Sullivan, J.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    McKinlay, A.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Gill, T. H.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Glassey, A. E.

    McShane, John James

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Gossling, A. G.

    Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton)

    Tout, W. J.

    Gould, F.

    Mansfield, W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Marcus, M.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Gray, Milner

    Markham, S. F.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Marley, J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Mathers, George

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Matters, L. W.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Melville, Sir James

    White, H. G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Messer, Fred

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Middleton, G.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Mills, J. E.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Milner, Major J.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Harbord, A.

    Montague, Frederick

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Hardie, George D.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Morley, Ralph

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Mort, D. L.

    Wise, E. F.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Muff, G.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.Paling.

    Herriotts, J.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Albery, Irving James

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Balniel, Lord

    Croom-Johnson, H. P.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hartford)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (HacKney, N.)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

    Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

    Bracken, B.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Butler, R. A.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Fermoy, Lord

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Lymington, Viscount

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Christie, J. A.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    1990

    1991

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut-Colonel E. A.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sandemau, Sir N. Stewart

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Savery, S. S.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Penny, Sir George

    Smithers, Waldron

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Sir George Bowyer and Captain Wallace.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
    The House divided: Ayes, 113; Noes, 179.

    Division No. 113.]

    AYES.

    [1.20 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dixey, A. C.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Albery, Irving James

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Dugdale, Gapt. T. L.

    Penny, Sir George

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Astor, Viscountess

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (l.of Thanet)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balniel, Lord

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bracken, B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Butler, R. A.

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Southby, Commander A. R. J

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Christle, J. A.

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Womersley, W. J.

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Captain Margesson and Captain Euan Wallace.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Muirhead, A. J.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Burgess, F. G.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Foot, Isaac

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.(Hillsbro')

    Calne, Derwent Hall-

    Freeman, Peter

    Alpass, J. H.

    Cameron, A. G.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

    Arnott, John

    Charleson, H. C.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Chater, Daniel

    Gill, T. H.

    Attlee. Clement Richard

    Clarke, J. S.

    Glassey, A. E.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Gossling, A. G.

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Compton, Joseph

    Gould, F.

    Barr, James

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Batey, Joseph

    Daggar, George

    Gray, Milner

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Dallas, George

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Benson, G.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Dukes, C.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Duncan, Charles

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    McElwee, A.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Scott, James

    Harbord, A.

    McKinlay, A.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Hardie, George D.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Haycock, A. W.

    McShane, John James

    Shield, George William

    Hayday, Arthur

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Mansfield, W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Marcus, M.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Markham, S. F.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Herriotts, J.

    Marley, J.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Mathers, George

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Matters, L. W.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Hollins, A.

    Melville, Sir James

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Messer, Fred

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Middleton, G.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Mills, J. E.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Milner, Major J.

    Sullivan, J.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Montague, Frederick

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Kelly, W. T

    Morley, Ralph

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Mort, D. L.

    Tout, W. J.

    Kinley, J.

    Muff, G.

    Townend, A. E.

    Lang, Gordon

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon George

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lathan, G.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Lawrence, Susan

    Palin, John Henry

    Westwood, Joseph

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    White, H. G.

    Lawson, John James

    Perry, S. F.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Leach, W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Potts, John S.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Pybus, Percy John

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Raynes, W. R.

    Wise, E. F.

    Longden, F.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Romeril, H. G.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Lunn, William

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Rowson, Guy

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Question again proposed, "That the word summary' stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: May I have a reply on this Amendment?
    Dr. ADDISON: The Amendment moved by the noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (the Marquess of Hartington) to insert the words:
    "such accounts to be on a detailed ousting system and to include a valuation of the Corporation's farms"
    substantially covers the point. The Amendment before the House is to leave out the word "summary" and to insert instead thereof the words "full statement". It is quite evident you could not have detailed accounts. You must bring together accounts of the different groups of farming operations. I am sure it will be as full an account as is necessary.
    Several HON. MEMBERS rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask hon. Members to remember that I only selected this Amendment on the understanding that there would be a short debate. I hope hon. Members will understand that.
    Mr. GUINNESS: May I briefly clear up the position? The debate earlier in the evening was on the question of what accounts would be furnished to the Minister or Secretary of State. It is true we had considerable discussion on the details of these accounts, but it was pointed out, and not denied by the Government, that the form of accounts as presented to the Minister; would not in any way govern the publication to Parliament and to the farmers who were to profit by this information. I think the right hon. Gentleman is not accurate in his suggestion that the whole thing has been disposed of already by securing that he gets the information. We want to make sure that the House of Commons and the public do not get a merely garbled summary, but that they get in its full details those descriptive accounts as to the farming of which we had a discussion earlier in the evening.
    Dr. ADDISON: In order to summarise the discussion, I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman will say that this provision is very much affected by what we did before. We decided before that certain farm accounts would have to be

    1995
    provided. Now we say that a summary of these accounts must be presented to Parliament. We both desire the same thing. I do not desire to have a garbled account. I want a full and honest account of the transactions and so does everybody else. We want to know success as well as failure. You will not
    make it any more certain by publishing any full statement instead of a summary. It must be a bona fide statement of accounts.
    Question put, "That the word summary stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 175; Noes, 108.

    Division No. 114.]

    AYES.

    [1.37 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Mort, D. L.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Muff, G.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Harbord, A.

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgle M.

    Hardie, George D.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Haycock, A. W.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayes, John Henry

    Palin, John Henry

    Arnott, John

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Herriotts, J.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Perry, S. F.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hollins, A.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Barr, James

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Potts, John S.

    Batey, Joseph

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Benson, G.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Kelly, W. T.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Kinley, J.

    Rowson, Guy

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Lang, Gordon

    Sanders, W. S.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Lathan, G.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Calne, Derwent Hall-

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Shield, George William

    Cameron, A. G.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Shinwell, E.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Lawson, John James

    Simmons, C. J.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lawther W. (Barnard Castle)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Leach, W.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Compton, Joseph

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Daggar, George

    Lagan, David Gilbert

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Dallas, George

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Longden, F.

    Sullivan, J.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Dukes, C.

    Lunn, William

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Duncan, Charles

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Ede, James Chuter

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Tout, W. J.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McElwee, A.

    Townend, A. E.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    McKinlay, A.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Elmley, Viscount

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Foot, Isaac

    McShane, John James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Freeman, Peter

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Westwood, Joseph

    Gardner, B. W. (Wert Ham. Upton)

    Mansfield, W.

    White, H. G.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

    Marcus, M.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Gill, T. H.

    Markham, S. F.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Glassey, A. E.

    Marley, J.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Mathers, George

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Gould, F.

    Matters, L. W.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Milville, Sir James

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Gray, Milner

    Messer, Fred

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Middleton, G.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Mills, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Milner, Major J.

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Ben Smith.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Montague, Frederick

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Morley, Ralph

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte. Lieut.-Colonel

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Albery, Irving James

    Balniel, Lord

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Allen. Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Bracken, B.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Butler, R. A.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon. Barnstaple)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Gayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Christle, J. A.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Salmon, Major I.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Savery, S. S.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Courthopa, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Lymington, Viscount

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Dixey, A. C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Captain Euan Wallace and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Penny, Sir George

    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in page 4, line 7, after the first word "the," to insert the word "annual." This is entirely a verbal Amendment.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I do not understand the point of this Amendment. As I understand, the Minister's two Amendments, taken together, will read
    "including a summary of the annual accounts of the Corporation".
    What on earth is the difference between that and what stands in the Bill:
    "including a summary of the accounts of the Corporation for the last preceding year".
    Really, the words in the Bill at the present moment appears to be more specific, and I would like to know from the Minister what advantage he expects to get by the change of words.
    Dr. ADDISON: If the right hon. Gentleman will recall the discussion we had in Committee on this point, he will remember that a question was raised as to what particular day the farming year should start in respect of the accounts presented to Parliament not later than 1st May, and I am advised that if the words "for the last preceding year" are left in that might be the year from 1st January to 31st December, and, in order to make sure that we refer to the farming year, we make the change.
    Sir D. HERBERT: May I suggest that, if that is what the right hon. Gentleman
    1998
    means, he should put it in the Bill and say that it is a summary of the accounts for the preceding farming year. At the present moment, as he proposes to amend the Clause, it seems to me that it reads rather like nonsense. If the Amendment is carried, the words will read:
    "including a summary of the annual accounts of the Corporation".
    Suppose that the Corporation has been in existence for five years, it seems to me it would naturally mean a summary of the annual accounts for those five years. But the Minister says that these words are necessary because if you add "for the last preceding year" it might mean some year other than the farming year of the Corporation.
    I suggest in all seriousness that the provision relating to the summary of the annual accounts of the Corporation does not show that the summary is to be for one year or five years or one month or twelve months. It is really loose legislation, and, if the Minister, instead of striking out the words "for the last preceding year," would make it read:
    "the last preceding financial year of the Corporation",
    it would show exactly what it means. As it is, I suggest that it is quite obvious that his own supporters do not understand what the right hon. Gentleman means, and perhaps somebody would ex-

    1999
    plain to us why we should not have it perfectly plain that the Minister means the accounts of the preceding financial year of the Corporation.
    Dr. ADDISON: The hon. Gentleman has not clearly read the Clause: It reads:
    "The Minister and the Secretary of State shall make to Parliament not later than the first day of May an annual report"—
    There is no question of five years.
    Sir D. HERBERT: For how long?
    Dr. ADDISON: A yearly report.
    Sir D. HERBERT: The right hon. Gentleman means that a report for every year, but he does not say it is to be the report of the business for that year.
    Dr. ADDISON: I will continue reading—s
    "an annual report as to the operations of the Corporation, including a summary of the annual accounts."
    Sir D. HERBERT: For how many years?
    Dr. ADDISON: The report on the 1st of May of the annual accounts.
    Mr. DIXEY: Where is the Solicitor-General?
    Dr. ADDISON: The only point is to ensure that the year of the Corporation shall coincide with the calendar year.
    Mr. DIXEY: On important questions where undoubtedly there is genuine misunderstanding, and, if I may say so, the hon. Gentlemen behind the Minister are not too clear as to the meaning of the words used, I would suggest very strongly that the Solicitor-General should explain the matter.
    Mr. TURTON: I want to put one point. The summary of the annual accounts cannot include future years, but it can include a number of past years. The annual report is a report made once a year. Now we carry it on one stage further. The annual report of the operations of the Corporation equally can be a report of their operations during any time during which the Corporation is operating. That can be one year, two years, or any number of years up to five. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consult the Law Officers on this matter so as to get a Clause more satisfactory to the House.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: There is a practical point. One of the most valuable reports is the Annual Statistical Abstract and that covers sixteen years in an annual report. I think the Minister should consider this question.
    Question put, "That the word 'annual' be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 103.

    Division No. 115.]

    AYES.

    [1.57 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Compton, Joseph

    Harbord, A.

    Addison, Bt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Daggar, George

    Hardie, George D.

    Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

    Dallas, George

    Haycock, A. W.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hayday, Arthur

    Alpass, J. H.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Amman, Charles George

    Dukes, C.

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Arnott, John

    Duncan, Charles

    Herriotts, J.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Ede, James Chuter

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Hollins, A.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Barr, James

    Elmley, Viscount

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Batey, Joseph

    Foot, Isaac

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

    Freeman, Peter

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Bowen, J. W.

    Gill, T. H.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Glaesey, A. E.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Kinley, J.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Gould, F.

    Lang, Gordon

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Burgess, F. G.

    Gray, Milner

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Burgin, Dr. E. L.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Cameron, A. G.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Leach, W.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Chater, Daniel

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Clarke, J. S.

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Longden, F.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Strauss, G. R.

    Lunn, William

    Palin, John Henry

    Sullivan, J.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    McElwee, A.

    Perry, S. F.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    McEntee, V. L.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Tout, W. J.

    McKinlay, A.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Potts, John S.

    Wallace, H. W.

    McShane, John James

    Pybus, Percy John

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Mansfield, W.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Marcus, M.

    Raynes, W. R.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Markham, S. F.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    White, H. G.

    Marley, J.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Mathers, George

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Matters, L. W.

    Rowson, Guy

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Melville, Sir James

    Sanders, W. S.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Messer, Fred

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Middleton, G.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Mills, J. E.

    Shield, George William

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Milner, Major J.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Montague, Frederick

    Shinwell, E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Ben Smith.

    Morley, Ralph

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Muff, G.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Albery, Irving James

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I of Thanet)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Salmon, Major I.

    Bracken, B.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Savery, S. S.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hamilton, Sir George (liford)

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Butler, R. A.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Smithers, Waldron

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Henneasy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Christle, J. A.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Llewellin, Major J. J.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Long, Major Hon. Eric

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Cranborne, Viscount

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Crookshank, Capt, H. C.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Sir George Penny and Captain Euan Wallace.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in page 4, line 8, leave out the words "for the last preceding year."
    Sir D. HERBERT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not, for those of us who feel some doubt, agree to leave in these words, with the addition of the word "financial" or "farm" before the word "year," and, if he likes, after that put in the words "of the
    2002
    Corporation," so that it will read as he has said he meant it to mean
    "for the last preceding farming year of the Corporation."
    I gladly make a present of these words to the right hon. Gentleman in all seriousness and with a view to trying to carry out what he bas described as his intention.
    Dr. ADDISON: After the conversations we had in Committee, I was advised that the introduction here of the word "farming" might lead to difficulties. It is clear what is meant—the annual accounts of the Corporation. You need not describe those accounts. It will be according to the convenience of the Corporation. It may be from Lady Day to Lady Day. I can assure the hon. Member that there is nothing in the point which he has raised, but I will look into it again and see if anything can be done elsewhere, if it should be necessary.
    Sir B. PETO: In view of what the Minister has said, may I point out that, if he leaves out, these words and puts in those suggested by the hon. Member for Watford (Sir D. Herbert) then to any ordinary layman the last words of his Sub-section:
    "a summary of the annual accounts of the Corporation",
    "accounts" being in the plural, would certainly imply a summary of the accounts of several years. If the Minister insists on leaving out these words, I suggest that it would make his purpose rather clearer if he put in the word "account" instead of the plural "accounts," because, if you say "the accounts of the Corporation," you would expect to find it followed by some such words as these: "for the preceding five years." Leaving it as it is no one will know whether you mean a summary of the accounts for one year or for all the years.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The following Amendments stood upon the Order Paper:
    In page 4, line 9, after the word "purchase," to insert the words "by agreement."—[Mr. Guinness, Sir D. Newton, Captain Bourne.]
    In page 4, line 9, leave out from the word "purchase," to the end of Clause, and insert instead thereof the words:
    "land by agreement, and to lease such land to local authorities, universities, or agricultural colleges for the purpose of being utilised as demonstration farms under the management and control, as agents of the Minister, of the body or bodies to whom the land is leased."—[Viscount Wolmer, Sir D. Newton, Captain Bourne.]
    In page 4, line 16, at the end, insert the words:
    "Provided that
    (a) the Minister shall, before exercising the power conferred upon him by this sec-
    2004
    tion, consult the council of the country in which the land proposed to be purchased is situate; and
    (b) there shall not be any obligation upon any local authority, university, agricultural college, or other body to act as the agents of the Minister under this section without their consent, and such consent may be given for a limited period."—[Sir D. Newton, Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Ruggles Brise.]

    CLAUSE 2.-(Power of Minister to acquire and hold land for use as demonstration farms.)
    Sir D. NEWTON: Clause 2 empowers the Minister to acquire land for use as demonstration farms. The Amendment, which I have the honour to move, lays down that this land required for demonstration farms shall only be acquired by agreement. In support of that Amendment, I would like to remind the House that there are scattered up and down the length and breadth of the country a great many demonstration farms, which are extremely well run. I believe I am right in saying that, in every case, the land for those demonstration farms has been acquired by agreement. If it is the aim and object of the corporation to establish these demonstration farms and if it has been found possible for existing demonstration farms, as operated by the county councils, to be acquired by agreement, it should be equally within the power of the corporation to acquire the land needed for these demonstration farms also by agreement. Moreover, a demonstration farm which is acquired by agreement is much more likely to prove a true and proper demonstration farm than land acquired by some form of compulsory power. We have no knowledge of the way in which this corporation will carry out its work. It may be that they will act with almost excessive zeal, and they may think the best way to have a demonstration farm, and certainly it would be the most effective way from some points of view, would be to pick out the best possible land in some locality, to pick out the "eyes" of a farm, to tear up some farm and buy the best area of land for their own purposes.
    Agriculture is in very great difficulties at the present time. In fact, it is almost impossible to overestimate and overstate the difficulties which confront

    2005
    the cereal farmer in this country. It is now suggested that the land of these agriculturists, who are in such difficulties, might be acquired compulsorily for the purposes of a demonstration farm. That proposal cuts deep down into the right of security of tenure. It will give power for the eviction of any farmer in any part of the country and must produce a feeling of unrest and of dissatisfaction. There is no need for these farms to be on the best of this land. There is plenty of land available at the present time. There is derelict land, and there is other land which can be acquired easily in the open market from willing sellers. There is, therefore, no need for these powers. If the Minister will accept this Amendment, it will strengthen rather than weaken the aims and objects which he has at heart.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton). If there was any part of Part I in which compulsory powers were not required, I should have thought that it was this Clause. The Minister has told us over and over again, in the course of these Debates, that a great deal of agricultural land has gone out of cultivation. If that is correct, as, presumably, it is, since he has the resources of his Department behind him, he would surely have no difficulty in negotiating the purchase of any of this land for the purpose of setting up a demonstration farm. His statements in Committee were not very dear, but I understood the object of this Clause was to run farms to pay and for that they desired ordinary land on which to run them. It would not meet the purpose of the Minister, in setting up demonstration farms, to acquire the very best land, because anyone knows the very best land can be made to pay. That, however, is not a demonstration of what will happen under ordinary conditions.
    Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): I am not quite sure the hon. and gallant Member is speaking to the Amendment before the House. The Amendment I called on the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) to move is the Amendment to Clause 2, on page 4, line 16, to insert certain words.
    Sir D. NEWTON: On a point of Order—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no point of Order. It is the Amendment which I called.
    Sir D. HERBERT: On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton), not having understood what Amendment you called, has actually proposed and moved another Amendment.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member named no Amendment whatever. I listened very carefully as I was going to call the hon. Member to order and get him back on the line again, but he gave no indication whatever what Amendment he moved.
    Mr. GUINNESS: May I point, out that we were notified early in the proceedings that, among the Amendments selected, by Mr. Speaker, was one standing in my name and that of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton), to insert after the word "purchase" the words "by agreement." It was on that understanding that I arranged with the hon. Member for Cambridge to move it in my place. On that understanding, he did so when you called his name. We were fully expecting that the Amendment would be called.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I certainly did not call upon the hon. Member to move that Amendment. I called upon the hon. Member to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton). I acted solely upon the instructions of Mr. Speaker.
    Sir D. NEWTON: May I now be allowed to move my Amendment?
    Mr. MARJORIBANKS: The hon. Member, to my recollection, commenced by referring to the words "by agreement."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already said that I called upon the hon. Member to move his Amendment. In the course of his speech, he gave no indication that he was moving any other Amendment than the one I called. These points of Order are speeches in support of an Amendment I have not selected.
    Captain BOURNE: My hon. Friend said Clause 4, page 4—[Interruption].
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cannot admit that, but in any case, it is in the power of the Chair to select the particular Amendment to be moved. There is no further point of Order on this matter. My Ruling is quite clear, definite and final.
    Mr. DIXEY rose—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If the hon. Member rises on the same point of Order, that is settled. I cannot listen to any further points of Order on this Ruling.
    Mr. ALBERY: Will you, Sir, tell us which Amendment it is.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Certainly; that Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge to insert words in page 4, line 16.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 4, line 16, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that—

    (a) the Minister shall, before exercising the power conferred upon him by this section, consult the council of the county in which the land proposed to be purchased is situate; and

    (b) there shall not be any obligation upon any local authority, university, agricultural college, or other body to act as the agents of the Minister under this section without their consent, and such consent may be given for a limited period."

    no one regrets more than I do that there has been this misunderstanding. We should know exactly where we were if the Amendments could be numbered instead of being printed in the present way. We on this side press very strongly for legislation to co-operate with the county councils in regard to land settlement generally. We hold that county councils are in a much better position than the Minister of Agriculture to form a true, fair, and proper opinion as to the suitability or otherwise of the land in their areas for demonstration farms. They are better able to form a judgment of the value to the area of the proposed demonstration farms. County councils are owners of many demonstration farms, and it seems to me an additional reason why they should be consulted. They know what the requirements of their areas are. I do not think it is realised
    2008
    by the promoters of this Bill what extensive steps are taken by county councils in order to assist agriculturists in their areas. I will just enumerate some of the steps my own county council have taken. We have an organiser of agricultural education and assistants; an horticultural adviser and assistants; we have an instructor of poultry keeping; we have a recorder—[Interruption]—we have organised courses of lectures, evening classes, and skilled labourers' classes. We give agricultural scholarships, and have experiments and demonstrations both in horticulture and agriculture. When it comes to the question of milk, we have organised milk competitions and also clean milk contests. [Interruption.]
    I think it very important to remind the House what is being done. It seems to be thought that nothing is being done, and I am venturing to tell the House very respectfully what is being done.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The whole argument on this Amendment is to show that county councils should be consulted before the Minister takes action.
    Sir D. NEWTON: I have tried to point out why they should be consulted. Unless they are consulted redundancy and great waste of public money may result. I would like to add that in the poultry section we have egg and chicken distribution and organised county egg laying trials. We import into this country eggs and poultry to the value of £20,000,000 every year. We have stock judging competitions, and we give grants to agricultural colleges. We also try to assist the bee-keeping association and have a cockerel-breeding scheme. On the library side, we have text books and courses, instruction and exhibits at county shows. [Interruption.] We are naturally somewhat proud of what we have done. I venture to submit the Amendment in the hope that it will be accepted by the Minister.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: I beg to second the Amendment. After the very close way in which the Mover has given an account of the work of his county council, it will not be necessary for me to explain the work of county councils. Other counties do equally well. The only people fit to judge the

    2009
    place and best land for these demonstration farms are the county councils. The Minister may have officials reporting to him or he may have a look round himself, but, anyhow, by a short visit himself or by sending officials to the county he cannot possibly have the knowledge which Members of the county council have. Those county councils also run various institutes and agricultural colleges. The second part of the Amendment is also of considerable importance because county councils do not want to be taxed by the Minister against their will. I hope he will make sure that no expense is put upon them.
    Mr. ATTLEE: In any case, where it is contemplated that demonstration farms should be under the county council, obviously the right thing would be to consult them. But it is one thing to lay down definitely that you must consult and another thing to say that in the normal course consultation will take place. While it is the full intention to work with the county council in every possible way, I think it is quite unnecessary to impose that obligation. In the second place, the hon. Member seeks to rid the local authority of any obligation. There, I can entirely agree with him, except that it is unnecessary to put it in, because there is no obligation whatever imposed in this Bill. There is no power whatever on the part of the Minister to put an obligation on the local authorities, University Agricultural Colleges, or any other body to act as his agent, and it is thoroughly bad drafting to put in a declaration that something must not be done when there is no power to do it.
    With regard to the last point made by the hon. Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte), there is no power in the Minister to make a county council act as his agent and to charge the costs to them. If they act as his agents it is quite obvious that he will have to bear the cost. There is no intention whatever to make the county councils bear a loss.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: I should like to say a few words in support of the Amendment. It certainly does seem to me that, unless the Minister consults with the local authorities before establishing demonstration farms, there must be a very considerable risk of duplication, in-
    2010
    convenience, and loss of money. A considerable number of county education authorities have already agricultural colleges. The majority have so far not yet blossomed out into anything that could really be called demonstration farms. It is true they have some small plots of ground used for practical training, but anything in the nature of demonstration farms is still something for the future, and it seems to me that unless they work in co-operation we stand a very serious danger of having the agricultural college in one part of the country and the demonstration farm in another. The ideal thing would be to have the agricutural college and the demonstration farm in the immediate vicinity of one another, so that they can be more or less progressively worked and the students can obtain first of all necessary instruction and then practical experience. Unless there is co-operation, and co-operation of a very close kind, between the education authorities and the Minister who is going to institute demonstration farms, the ideal which we wish to aim at is not likely to be attained, and we may see the demonstration farm and the educational college so far apart that it will be almost impossible to have practical cooperation.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will remember something that took place in Committee in connection with various Amendments in regard to which the Chairman exercised the difficult powers which had been given him. There was one in my name which I was not allowed to move, but I was permitted to explain briefly for the express purpose that the Minister should consider the matter and subsequently give an explanation to the House. The purpose for which that Amendment was put on the Paper was that the Minister should give the House some kind of direction as to what was proposed in these experimental farms. Most counties are already doing a very great deal in the way of educational work in regard to agriculture. It is really important that nothing in the nature of rivalry between the Board of Agriculture experimental farms and the county council experimental farms should be set up. There is, however, a serious risk that experimental farms will be set up in rivalry to those now successfully run by the county councils and that we shall see a system of

    2011
    rivalry established between the Ministry officials on the one hand and county officials on the other, one set of farms run with the taxpayers' money and another with the ratepayers' money, not so much to teach farmers, as to retain the pride and status of respective departments.
    That may sound a fantastic state of affairs, but anyone who has had real experience of work in Government Departments cannot fail to see that it is a real risk. I saw something of it in the War Office during the War.
    Mr. McKINLAY: On a point of Order. What point is the hon. Gentleman discussing? I cannot see anything in the Amendment dealing with experimental farms.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Amendment before the House is whether or not the Minister, before exercising certain powers defined in the Clause should consult the county council of that area.
    Marquess of HARTINGTON: For the further information of the hon. Member the Clause provides that
    "the Minister shall have power to purchase and hold land for the purpose of utilising the land as demonstration farms under the management and control, as agents for the Minister, of local authorities, universities, agricultural colleges, or other bodies, or of any persons, who, in the opinion of the Minister, are qualified to manage and control such farms and to give instruction in agricultural subjects."
    That is extremely had grammar, but I think its meaning ought to be clear to hon. Gentleman opposite. The Clause empowers the Minister to acquire land for the purpose of demonstration and experimental farms, and the Amendment which we seek to carry provides that the Minister shall not exercise these powers, unless and until he has consulted with the council of the county on which the land is situated. I hope the hon. Member understands. I wish to try and emphasise the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) that such words as these should be inserted. One does not wish to see rivalry between the excellent work done by the county councils and the work of the Department of Agriculture.
    I hope that there will be some reply from one of the Ministers as this point was not allowed to be discussed upstairs.
    2012
    It is important, because a very large sum of money is involved, and the House is not in the possession of any information as to what is intended by the Minister. We do not know how many experimental farms he intends to set up or whether he proposes to supersede the farms of the county councils. I think we should have a further explanation from the Government as to what is intended.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The Noble Lord has put a perfectly reasonable case, and I hope to answer his points briefly. He said there had been no case made out, and there has been no information as to what the Government intend to do. I suppose the Noble Lord read the report of the Scottish Conference on Agricultural Policy held under the direction of the late Secretary of State for Scotland on which were represented six landowners, six tenant farmers, two smallholders, six farm labourers, and the representative of the Scottish Agricultural Cooperation. This committee, known as the "Elder Committee," unanimously recommends, on page 14, that:
    "theories useful as they may be are less convincing to the practical farmer than concrete demonstrations in the field, we, therefore, strongly urge the establishment of a large number of demonstration areas."
    The results of experimental research in agriculture do not get out quickly enough to the farmer, and the research work of Professor Findlay takes a long time to get to the people who are interested in it. There are other experiments being conducted in three or four agricultural colleges—experiments in the production of a new oat. Why should there not he demonstration areas, not necessarily farms, but demonstration areas, not one only in a county, but several where the Minister of Agriculture, in consultation with county councils and the agricultural interests, thinks the most suitable places. Why should there not be demonstration areas of 5, 10 acres or less. The Amendment is that the Government ought not to be permitted to do that, until they have had a consultation with the county council, and the county council may refuse to act as agent for the Government. The Government believe that there is a field for a large number of demonstration areas, that the Department of Agriculture should have the power quickly and speedily to translate the latest results in

    2013
    research to the farming community, that the Government ought not to be hampered by local county prejudice, that the Government ought to act swiftly in these matters, that the Government ought not to be bound simply by geographical county areas in these matters, and that the Government should place these demonstration areas in the centre of farming communities, even if the farmers should come from various counties in the neighbourhood to see the results of research—all that is necessary. The Government intend to act through, and with the assistance of, the county councils, the county agricultural committees, local authorities of every kind, and the agricultural colleges. Any Government in its senses would be delighted to make use of any local knowledge, local influence, local organisation, but not to have Government action, limited and perhaps stultified, in most vital and important matters of agricultural research. Surely, there is common agreement that instructed agricultural opinion in every part of the country—
    Viscount WOLMER: Condemns this Bill.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: It does not. That is a most foolish observation. Surely, there is common agreement on this point—and I bar the Noble Lord—but, outside of the Noble Lord, surely, there is common agreement that whatever results can be secured from agricultural research should be placed speedily, quickly, and efficiently before the agriculturists in every part of the country. If the noble Lord objects to that, let him object. The Government say that there is no use in spending money on agricultural research if you are going to make it difficult of access to the farming community. Fortified by the unanimous report of the Agricultural Conference, the Government ask the House to agree that nothing whatever shall be placed as a barrier between the latest results of agricultural research and the farming community.
    Sir J. LAMB: I consider that the explanation just given by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is most unsatisfactory, because he has made plain that this is being done simply because the education authorities in Scotland have neglected to do what the English educa-
    2014
    tion authorities have done and done very thoroughly. In that case, why should the Scottish authorities ride off with less expenditure and get what we have had to provide with local rates and local expenditure? Why should the Scottish authorities get theirs under this Bill'? The hon. Gentleman has also said that the results of these experiments should be quickly conveyed to the farmers. There is no system which he can recommend by which it can be more quickly put before the farmers than is done by the local authorities in England. On all these demonstration farms—there are no less than 33 already existing in this country, 12 connected with the universities and no less than 21 in the various counties, and there is close co-operation between these, and the counties have been divided off into provinces, each having their demonstration farm connected with farm institutes—each one has its annual report which is issued to the farmers. But they go further. My experience is that a report is not sufficient, because reports may be made but they are not necessarily read by the farmers. On most of the demonstration farms, in addition to the report, there are visits of farmers, who have an explanation given to them, at the time, of the work that is being done. That, to my mind, is quite satisfactory, and the numbers already existing, particularly in the counties in England—I do not speak for Scotland—leads me to believe that there is very grave danger of duplication such as has been expressed by other hon. Members.
    It is absolutely necessary before demonstration farms are set up that the Ministry should consult with the local authorities to see if the work is not being done well at the present time. It is not only duplication of the farms that we fear, but also duplication of officials, because these demonstration farms are of no value unless their work is put before the people in such a way that they can understand it, and that means a very large technical staff. These services are already in possession of the local authorities. Why duplicate them? There is a very grave danger of duplication which at the present time we cannot possibly afford. We must get all we can in the way of experiment and scientific research, but we cannot afford to go in for duplication in any way.
    Captain GUNSTON: No one was more surprised than I was to hear the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland when he was rather pouring cold water on local opinion. I can remember his speeches on the Local Government Act, when he stood up for the local authorities and local opinion against the larger authorities. I think he fails to realise that those of us in England who are much more forward and comprehensive in agricultural matters apparently than in Scotland do take a great pride in the work which our counties are doing in regard to agriculture and agricultural education. When he talks about the necessity for these demonstration farms, I think he forgets that this Amendment is not questioning that at all, but is merely saying that the county council shall be consulted. It does not say that if a county council does not agree with the Government the Government cannot go on.
    3 a.m.
    The hon. Member who first spoke for the Government in reply to this Amendment said that in most cases the Government would consult with the county council, but I do not think he realises that we look upon this Bill in a very apprehensive way. If the Government are able to come down to a county like Gloucester, which has done great work in agriculture, and acquire land and set up a demonstration farm without even consulting local authorities, on the boards of which many men have given up their lives to educate the countryside in the latest developments of agriculture, you are bound to create bad feeling and not advance the cause which you want to advance. Wherever your farm is and whatever branches of agriculture it takes in, it is practically impossible—at any rate in the West of England—to make an experiment in agriculture which is not already being done to some extent by the county council. Therefore, it is right if you are going to set up these experimental farms, that you should say, "Let us go and see the county councils and examine what work they have done. We want to experiment with poultry. Let us see the people who have been carrying out a big experiment with poultry and who have been teaching its lessons in the county and know what teaching is needed."
    2016
    Surely that is not asking too much. We are not saying that you shall not set up these farms unless the county council agrees. We are only saying that you shall consult with the county council. The Minister would save a lot of time and would improve his Bill considerably if he would accept this modest Amendment.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: I do not appreciate that the argument of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland was at all germane to the Amendment. The Amendment, does not propose any restrictive powers on the Government nor has it any delaying effect at all. All the Amendment says is that the Minister, before exercising the powers he takes under this Clause, shall consult with the local authority in the area in which he is exercising these powers. How can any Amendment be more reasonable 2 The very refusal of the right hon. Gentleman arouses in some of our minds the suspicion that what the Government intend to do is to take these powers and to exercise them without the advice of and without consulting the local authorities. Consider the case of a county in which there are no universities or agricultural colleges. Does the Minister seriously suggest it is in any way an impediment to the Government to say that, before taking up land in that county for the purpose of conducting an experimental farm, they must consult the local authority. If this Amendment arouses the opposition of the Government, then they are taking the worst possible step towards making these farms a success. You are bound to look for the co-operation of the local authority. If you flout them and do not ask their advice at all, you are taking the worst possible step to wards making these farms a success.
    This Amendment is a modest one. It interferes in no way with the operation of the Clause. Only a few hours ago we were hearing complaints that the methods of the Opposition had been responsible for the delay with which these Clauses had been completed. The delay in this case is due to the Government and to their obvious obstinacy in refusing to accept a perfectly simple and plain Amendment, which does not impede it in any way, and which is reasonable alike from the point of view of the Government and the County Council. I would

    2017
    again urge upon the Minister that, even at this late stage and after permitting the time of the House to he wasted, he should accept this Amendment, which does not do any harm to the Bill and which is only following the course, which, according to their own spokesmen, the Government intend to adopt.
    Captain BRISCOE: I would like to correct two false impressions which the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland tried to convey to this House. He, first of all, tried to convey the impression that we on this side of the House stated that no case had been made out for demonstration farms at all. He shakes his head, but those are his actual words. That is neither our attitude of mind nor is it what has been said from these benches. I am particularly anxious to see the development of demonstration farms throughout the country and to see the information so obtained spread round among the farmers of this country. That is the first false impression which I wish to correct. The second false impression which the Under-Secretary gave was that, if the Ministry were obliged to consult the county councils, the county councils would necessarily restrict and try to obstruct the operations of the Ministry. Those of us who have had any dealings with county councils know that would not be the case at all. My own county council would do everything they could to assist the Ministry to carry out the experiments which are required.
    The Minister is really asking us to take too much on trust. He said that this Amendment was not necessary. "Of course," he said, "we will consult the county councils whenever it is convenient and necessary to do so." He keeps on saying that throughout the whole of the Bill. When there are things in the Bill which we do not like, he says he will not use those powers; when we want things put in the Bill, he says that there is no need to put them in, as he will do what we propose. He said that about the Corporation's powers to let land. When we tried to limit the amount of expenditure, he said "Trust me. I am not going to spend too much." Again, on the question of keeping accounts, he said "Trust me. I will see accounts are kept all
    right." When we come to compulsory powers, he says "Trust me. I will not use them objectionably." Now we are asking him to consult with the county councils, he says, "Trust me. I will do it all right when the time comes." This trust business, this kind of Fido business is really getting almost unbearable, especially after the sort of thing we have had earlier in the Debate. He cannot expect us to go on trusting him for ever. If we may compare him to the pet dog that is always put on trust, we may call him the Bonzo of the Bonanza Farm.
    Viscount LYMINGTON: I rise to support the Amendment for the very reason that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has opposed it. It is to lubricate the working of a bad Bill that we want to put these words in. He mentioned the question of research and the value of popularising its results. How can you possibly get results popularised in any county where you have ridden over the heads of your local authority? If the Minister is going to consult the county councils, let him put it in the Bill. If he is not going to do so, and farming on a large scale comes into a district, you are going to meet immediately with suspicion. You can halve that suspicion by consulting the local authority which is there already. The local agricultural committee is composed in my county of farmers and those who know about the land. The county land officer is very probably over every acre in the county in the course of a year. If you are not going to have consultation, you are going to have distrust. However good the large-scale farms may be, in the end they may be discounted by the fact that they will be liable to have overridden local opinion if there is no consultation. As my hon. Friend has just suggested, there will undoubtedly arise some Pharaoh who will forget the present Minister's promises And be in the position of having results, however good, discounted.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question he now put."
    The Houses divided: Ayes, 169; Noes 98.

    Division No. 116.]

    AYES.

    [3.13 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Arnott, John

    Hayes, John Henry

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Herriotts, J.

    Palin, John Henry

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Perry, S. F.

    Barr, James

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Batey, Joseph

    Hollins, A.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Potts, John S.

    Benson, G.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Bowen, J. W.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Kinley, J.

    Rowson, Guy

    Cameron, A. G.

    Lang, Gordon

    Sanders, W. S.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lawrence, Susan

    Shield, Georqe William

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lawson, John James

    Shinwell, E.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Leach, W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Daggar, George

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Dallas, George

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Dukes, C.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Duncan, Charles

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Longden, F.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lunn, William

    Sullivan, J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Elmley, Viscount

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Foot, Isaac

    McElwee, A.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Freeman, Peter

    McEntee, V. L.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Gardner, B. W. (Wett Ham. Upton)

    McKinlay, A.

    Tout, W. J.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Wallace, H. W.

    Gill, T. H.

    McShane, John James

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Glassey, A. E.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Mansfield, W.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gould, F.

    Marcus, M.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Markham, S. F.

    White, H. G.

    Gray, Milner

    Marley, J.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Matters, L. W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Melville, Sir James

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Messer, Fred

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Middleton, G.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mills, J. E.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Milner, Major J.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Montague, Frederick

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Harbord, A.

    Morley, Ralph

    Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Paling.

    Hardie, George D.

    Mort, D. L.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Muff, G.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Balniel, Lord

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Lymington, Viscount

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Bracken, B.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Green W. P. Crawford

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Christle, J. A.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    2020

    2021

    Savery, S. S.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Smithers, Waldron

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Womersley, W. J.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Sir George Penny and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Question put accordingly "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 170.

    Division No. 117.]

    AYES.

    [3.22 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Penny, Sir George

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balniel. Lord

    Flson, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Boyce, Leslle

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bracken, B.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Savery, S. S.

    Braithwalte, Major A. N.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Christie, J. A.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wolmer. Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Womersley, W. J.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Captain Euan Wallace and SirVictor Warrender.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Daggar, George

    Haycock, A. W.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Dallas, George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hayes, John Henry

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Alexander. Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Dukes, C.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Duncan, Charles

    Herriotts, J.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Ede, James Chuter

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Arnott, John

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Hoflman, P. C.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Hollins, A.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Baidwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Elmley, viscount

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Foot, Isaac

    Hudson, James H. (Huddarsfield)

    Barr, James

    Freeman, Peter

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Batey, Joseph

    Gardner, B. W. (Wast Ham, Upton)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Bennett, William (Batteries, South)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Moisley)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Berson, G.

    Gill, T. H.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Glassey, A. E.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Gossling, A. G.

    Kinlay, J.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Gould, F.

    Lang, Gordon

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamliton)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Gray, Milner

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Buraess, F. G.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Caine, Darwent Hall.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Cameron, A. G.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Lawson, John James

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Charleson, H. C.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Leach, W.

    Chater, Daniel

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Clarke, J. S.

    Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Compton, Joseph

    Harbord, A.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Hardie, George D.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Longden, F.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Lunn, William

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Palin, John Henry

    Strauss, G. R.

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Perry, S. F.

    Sullivan, J.

    McEiwee, A.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    McKinlay, A.

    Potts, John S.

    Tinker. John Joseph

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Pybus, Percy John

    Tout, W. J.

    McShane, John James

    Quibell, D. F. K.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Mansfield, W.

    Raynes, W. R.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda)

    Marcus, M.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Markham, S. F.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Marley, J.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    White, H. G.

    Matters, L. W.

    Rowson, Guy

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Melville, Sir James

    Sanders, W. S.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Messer, Fred

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Williams Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Middleton, G.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Mills, J. E.

    Shield, George William

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Milner, Major J.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Wilson, Ft. J. (Jarrow)

    Montague, Frederick

    Shinwell, E.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Morley, Ralph

    Sitch, Charles H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mort, D. L.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondiey, Rotherhitha)

    Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Piling.

    Muff, G.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in page 4, line 16, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(2) The Minister shall make to Parliament not later than the first day of May an annual report as to the operations conducted under this section, including a summary of the annual accounts of each demonstration farm carried on thereunder." I do this in consequence of a promise in Committee.
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
    I need hardly say I do not do it for the purpose of preventing the Amendment being added to the Bill. I have to make my motion when the Question is already before the House, and I therefore do it on this Amendment as it seems to me the Amendment is the last one on this Clause and when we have finished this Clause it will be a reasonable and proper time to adjourn. We have already had a long sitting. There is a special reason for not entering upon the next Clause at this hour of the morning. The House has been reminded that the procedure in regard to this Bill has from the first been exceptional. Members have not been allowed the same freedom of examination and discussion in Committee on this Bill as in almost every other case—I think with only a single exception. It so happens that the next Clause is one which, owing to the procedure, escaped discussion to a very large extent—I am
    2024
    speaking on information supplied to me as I had not the good fortune to be a Member of the Committee. I am informed that a very large part of the Clause was passed over, and it is more necessary therefore that the discussion on Report should be taken within the normal hours of the sitting of the House, and at a time when those outside the House who are interested may know what is being done and why it has been done. The only reason which the right hon. Gentleman offered for resisting a similar Motion, which I made some time ago, was that the omnibuses had ceased to run, and I venture to make a protest against the procedure of the House of Commons being governed by regulations made by the omnibus proprietors in London. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept my proposal so that we may not discuss the next Clause at this time of the morning.
    Dr. ADDISON: I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman was not upon the Committee upstairs: if he had been he would have understood how adequately this Clause was discussed. As a matter of fact, we are bound to take cognisance of the outside world, and it is a fact that there is a considerable number of members who are unable to get home and who can be usefully employed for the next two or three hours. With regard to the first point raised by the right hon. Gentleman, over 90 pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT are devoted to the discussion on Clause 3. It was very completely discussed, and it is true to say that

    2025
    every important point was discussed. The Chairman selected the Amendments with much skill, and nothing of any consequence was omitted. The proof of that is that the Amendments on the Order Paper are largely on the same lines as those moved in Committee. I may say also that the reason we got the Clause at that particular time was that the opposition of the hon. Members opposite had become threadbare.
    Captain CR00KSHANK: The remarks of the right hon. Gentleman resisting the Motion of my right hon. Friend boil themselves down to two propositions. The first is that the Amendments now on the Order Paper are very much the same as the Amendments before the Committee. Of course, if you have a bad Bill it is likely that the Opposition will direct attention to its bad points as often as possible. Then, the right hon. Gentleman said that we in this House have to take cognisance of the outside world. It is just because he is not doing that that we have moved this Amendment. The cognisance he is talking about, apparently, is the time table of omnibuses, while we are directing our attention to the objectionable features of this Bill. I think it is time that someone should emphatically protest against this preposterous assumption that the whole of the business of this House is to be carried on according to time tables of railways and omnibuses. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland just asserted that a lot of people will have to walk a long way. There is no evidence of that fact. It is just an assertion. One sees a great number of hon. Members opposite going home by other means. I think it is monstrous that the Government should, time after time, produce this assertion for which there is no evidence. As a matter of fact, the Minister said earlier on that he had made inquiries with regard to this Bill in various quarters and had been told to get on with it. The quarters must have been the Liberal benches, because it is their Bill and not his, and I see that they have left a small gallant band to carry on with the work. [Interruption.]
    We are vitally interested in following in some detail this Bill. After all, if the Government gets through the House a Motion that the Chairman of a Committee should have special powers to cur-
    2026
    tail discussion upstairs, it is only natural that more time will be required on the Report stage, and it is obvious that the Government have seen that, because in their other important Measure which has gone to a Committee they are not proposing to ask for these powers for the Chairman in Committee. Unfortunately in this Bill they did not adopt that practice, and it is not unnatural that those of us who sit for agricultural constituencies want to see this matter very carefully discussed now on the Report stage and to bring out the points which the Minister has glided over and, to use his own words, take cognisance of the outside world and the criticism of the outside world. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman cannot get up in this House, or indeed anywhere else, and assert with any kind of confidence at all that there is any section of the agricultural community that wants this Bill.
    Mr. PYBUS: What is your view as a practical farmer?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: The hon. Member has been so short a time in this House that he still does not learn the Rules of Order. He should know perfectly well that the time to discuss that is not on a Motion for the Adjournment, but I will ask him and hon. Members opposite in return to substantiate the claim made from the benches opposite, and apparently supported below the gangway, that it is impossible for Members on the Government benches to get home at this hour of the morning, and that they have to wait for the omnibuses and trams. [Interruption.] I was saying that it is up to those who produce this argument, time and time again, to prove that there is any substance in it. We have every reason to suppose that there is time for them to get home at any hour and that they have a wealth of talent on their own benches that, could devote its attention to organising transport at any time of the day or night. Those hon. Members who sit for co-operative societies could no doubt find it possible to secure transport in those various organisations, and I have no doubt that the Minister of Transport himself could give a. helping hand, and, unless rumour is inaccurate, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones), at any rate, knows all about transportation.
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: I think it is nothing short of a disaster that a Bill of this magnitude should be dobated at this time of the morning and with so many members on the other side of the House, if their interruptions are any criterion, not fit to take any part in the discussion. The only argument that has been advanced is that many Labour Members have nothing else to do until the early trains start running. In view of the fact that this is the only Bill that the Government are likely to pass into law this Session, there is plenty of time for it to be debated at an hour when we are able to take a part that will ensure
    its passing from this House in a very much different condition from that in which it is at the present time. It will go forth to the electors that the only reason why the Bill is being debated at the present time is in order that time shall be killed until the early trains start running.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 94.

    Division No. 118.]

    AYES.

    [3.49 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Mort, D. L.

    Adarnson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Muff, G.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

    Harbord, A.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Hardie, George D.

    Oliver, George Harold (liketton)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Haycock, A. W.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hayes, John Henry

    Palin, John Henry

    Arnott, John

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Paling, Willrid

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Peiry, S. F.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Herriotts, J.

    Peters. Dr. Sidney John

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hollins, A.

    Potts. John S.

    Barr, James

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Pybus, Percy John

    Batey, Joseph

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Benson, G.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Raynes, W. R.

    Betterton, sir Henry B.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Romeril, H. G.

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Kelly, W. T.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts Mansfield)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Rowson, Guy

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Kinley, J.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Lang, Gordon

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Calne, Oerwcnt Hall.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Shield, George William

    Cameron, A. G.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Shinwell, E.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Chater, Daniel

    Leach, W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rothsrhithe)

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Compton, Joseph

    Licyd, C. Ellis

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Daggar, George

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Dallas, George

    Longden, F.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lovat-Fraser, I. A.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lunn, William

    Sullivan, J.

    Dukes, C.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Duncan, Charles

    MacDonald, Malcoim (Bassetlaw)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Ede, James Chuter

    McElwee, A.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Edmunds, J. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Tout, W. J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    McKinlay, A.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Elmley, Viscount

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Foot, Isaac

    McShane, John James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Freeman, Peter

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Mansfield, W.

    Weetwood, Joseph

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    Marcus, M.

    White, H. G.

    Gill, T. H.

    Markham, S. F.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Glassey, A. E.

    Marley, J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Mathers, George

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Gould, F.

    Matters, L. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Messer, Fred

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Gray, Milner

    Middleton, G.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mills, J. E.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Milner, Major J.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Montague, Frederick

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Morley, Ralph

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Alien, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Penny, Sir George

    Allan, W. E. O. (Belfast, W.)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnttaple)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanct)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balniel, Lord

    Ferguson, sir John

    Roberta, Sir Samuel (Ecciesall)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Ross, Major Ronald D.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonet E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bracken, B.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Savery, S. S.

    Braithwaite. Major A. N.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cattle Stewart, Earl of

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Christie, J. A.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Colville. Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel Georgt

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D (I. of W.)

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Womersley, W. J.

    Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Undsdy,Galnibro)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    TFXLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender.

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

    Division No. 119.]

    AYES.

    [4.0 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbirt

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Duckworth, G. A. V.

    Penny, Sir Georae

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hattings)

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Ballour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balniel, Lord

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Robs, Major Ronald D.

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-colonel E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Glyn. Major R. G. C.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bracken, B.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Sandeman, sir N. Stewart

    Braithwalte, Major A. N.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Savery, S. S.

    Brass, Captain Sir William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Smithera, Waldron

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Castle Stewart, Earl of

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Cazalet. Captain Victor A.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Christie, J. A.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Clydesdale, Marquesa of

    Liewallin, Major J. J

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    McConnetl, Sir Joseph

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Crichton-Stuart. Lord C.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Womersley, W. J.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Captain Sir George Bowyer and

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Captain Euan Wallace.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Arnott, John

    Bennett, William (Battenea, South)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Benson, G.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Bowen, J. W.

    Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Barr, James

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Batey, Joseph

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    The House divided: Ayes, 94; 168.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Perry, S. F.

    Cameron, A. G.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Charleson, H. C.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Potts, John S.

    Chater, Daniel

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Pybus, Percy John

    Clarke, J. S.

    Kinley, J.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour.

    Lang, Gordon

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilton

    Compton, Joseph

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Raynes, W. R.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Daggar, George

    Lawrence, Susan

    Romeril, H. G.

    Dallas, George

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Rowson, Guy

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Leach, W.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Dukes, C.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Duncan, Charles

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Shield, George William

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Longden, F.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Foot, Isaac

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Freeman, Peter

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mosslay)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Gill, T. H.

    McElwee, A.

    Smith, Tom (Pontetract)

    Glassey, A. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Gossling, A. G.

    McKinlay, A.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gould, F.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Strauss, G. R.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    McShare, John Jamas

    Sullivan, J.

    Gray, Milner

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mansfield, W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Marcus, M.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Markham, S. F.

    Tout, W. J.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Marley, J.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mathers, George

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Matters, L. W.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Messer, Fred

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Middleton, G.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Harbord, A.

    Mills, J. E.

    White, H. G.

    Hardie, George D.

    Milner, Major J.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Morley, Ralph

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Mort, D. L.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Herriotts, J.

    Muff, G.

    Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R. Wentworth)

    Noel Baker, P. J.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Hollins, A.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Palin, John Henry

    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: On a point of Order. May I ask whether any of the windows could be opened, as the heat in the House is very unpleasant. If we have to sit until the trams run, it is very unwholesome to have the atmosphere get as stale as it is.
    Original Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    Viscount WOLMER: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the words "a summary of," and in line 3, at the end to add the words
    "and such accounts shall include a profit and loss account for each farm and a valuation at the end of each financial year."
    We are now back on the Minister's Amendment, and I would ask him to explain it if he is capable of explaining it.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to direct your atten-
    2032
    tion to the fact that the Noble Lord has grossly insulted my right hon. Friend, and I beg to ask you whether the observation be made is within the Rules of Order and, if not, that he be called upon to withdraw it.
    Viscount WOLMER: I withdraw at once if hon. Members opposite imagine that my remark was made in any offensive sense. I merely meant that we are all very tired. When we were discussing the question of the experiments in large-scale farming on Clause 1 the Minister had a form of words almost identical with the form of words that he is now proposing in regard to the accounts to be laid before Parliament in respect of the large-scale farms. After a certain amount of argument the right hon. Gentleman accepted a large portion of the Amendment of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) in regard to these accounts. The

    2033
    question I want to ask the Minister is, will he not consider putting the form of accounts of the small demonstration farms in exactly the same terms as he has agreed to in regard to the accounts of the large-scale demonstration farms? Surely it is unreasonable that we should say in regard to one of the large-scale demonstration farms that the accounts should include a profit and loss account and a valuation, whereas in regard to these experiments the Minister is using a form of words which he originally intended to be the same but which is not what was agreed to in regard to Clause 1. The mere fact that this form of words is different from the form of words in Clause 1 will cause confusion, because it will be apparent to anyone who reads the Act without having read this Debate that Parliament means something different when he sees a different set of words, and, as I am certain the right hon. Gentleman is anxious that there should be a full statement of accounts both in regard to large-scale demonstration farms and in regard to small-scale demonstration farms, I do impress upon him that he should employ precisely the same form of words in the one case as in the other. My object is to get the same words in Clause 2 as occur in Clause 1.
    Dr. ADDISON: The form of the Amendment that I have put on the Order Paper was to secure that the cultural results of the demonstration farms are made available to the House of Commons and to the public, apart entirely from the accounts. That is what is meant by the words "the annual report of the operations." For the rest, I do not see any objection to making these words correspond to the others if it will shorten discussion, and, in that spirit, I will accept the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
    Amendment to proposed Amendment, agreed to.
    Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Power of Minister to purchase land for purposes of re-conditioning.)
    Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, to leave out the Clause.
    Clause 3 empowers the Minister to undertake very costly operations in the
    2034
    reconditioning of land. The total capital expenditure authorised for this Clause and Clause 2 is £25,700,000. The Minister in the first Sub-section is to have very wide powers to execute reclamation, drainage, or other work where he thinks it necessary for land to be satisfactorily used. We know what extravagant sums can be spent on land reclamation. Wild expenditure was indulged in in the spacious days during the War and just afterwards, and there are many cases where £60, £70, and £80 an acre was spent on land which at the end was not worth £10 or £20, and of which at the present day the value would be far less. We know the problem of heath land. There are various ways of improving its fertility, but they are extremely costly. There are lands in Norfolk and Suffolk which you can reclaim it is true, but where you certainly will never get a return corresponding to one-fifth of your capital outlay, and it is the same with the reclamation of land on the sea coast.
    Of course, the Minister need not only go in for reclamation of land, which is in the sea or not growing crops; he can try to improve land which has been let down. I think this too in a lesser degree will be found in present conditions not to justify the cost. Land which has been let down has not been allowed to go out of cultivation or into a poor condition from choice, but simply because in present conditions it does not yield any return for the expenditure which might be made upon it. In our Agricultural Credits Act a few years ago and in the Land Improvements Act there are elaborate provisions to enable landowners and owner-occupiers to get loans for the improvement of their land, and, if they have not found it worth their while under present conditions to do so, surely it is no good pouring millions of public money down the drain.
    The Minister is going the wrong way to work; he is baling out the ship instead of trying to stop the leak. Land has gone out of cultivation—a million acres the Minister tells us—and it has gone out of cultivation because the burdens and prices which is now has to bear are such that it is impossible for the cultivator to carry on. The Minister's proposals seek to place new burdens on the land with an extravagant system of valuation in preparation for new imposts.

    2035
    The Government do not apparently realise that instead of spending money on curing symptoms it is better to tackle the disease of low prices. We are waiting for the cereal policy of the Government; they told us that as soon as the Imperial Conference reported, they were going to take practical steps to put cereal growing on a firm foundation. If they could enable the corn grower to make a profit, there would be no need for the reclamation of such land.
    Subsection (7) enables the Minister, after certain safeguards, to clear land which is in a seriously neglected condition. He has not to deal with a large problem. He has to deal with the case of one eccentric landowner, who, I believe is probably out of his mind. I do not think there is sufficient ground to pass elaborate provisions of this kind for an exceptional case. [Interruption.] This used to be looked on as a difficult case, but I understand the Minister has been more fortunate than we were, and that he has been able to get the weeds cut and his requirements complied with and that the man is no longer a nuisance to his neighbours. On the Clause as a whole, I would say that least of all is it justified in the present conditions of financial difficulty. We cannot possibly afford this expenditure at the present time. If we wish to spend money on productive purposes, the thing is to carry out the Government's pledges to make farming pay.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Do I understand that it is not the intention to safeguard the Amendment on page 4, line 39, which I understood was to be called—in page 4, line 39, after the second word "is" to insert the words
    "suitable for use for agricultural purposes but cannot be satisfactorily and economically so used by reason of its being."
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is not the intention to save any Amendments except the last Amendment standing in the name of the Minister of Agriculture—in page 5, line 1, to leave out the words "any steps which he could have taken to secure" and to insert instead thereof the words
    "reasonable steps to reserve or enforce any right for securing."
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: We are not allowed to put a question of drafting to
    2036
    the Minister. Does that mean that there are no Amendments to be called?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There are no Amendments to be called except the one I have referred to.
    Mr. W. S. MORRISON: I support the Amendment because the Bill as it stands represents the diversion of the whole energies of the Minister of Agriculture to a task which is secondary and more remote that the real problems which face agriculture. So far as the agricultural problem is concerned, by reclamation you cannot help the man who is working on land which is already reclaimed. It seems to me that we are beginning to tackle this problem at the wrong end. You propose to spend great sums of public money on land when land already in cultivation with the utmost energy and skill is failing to return an adequate livelihood to those who labour upon it. It does appear to the whole agricultural population that this proposal is the sort of tactics adopted by princes and governments in the past when they launched out on foreign expeditions to distract the attention of the people.
    Mr. MUFF: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker we are catching our death of cold.
    Mr. MORRISON: To continue my argument, I am sorry that hon. Members opposite are incommoded by draughts, but perhaps they are more accustomed to hot air than to a little cold air. I would urge on the Minister to accept this Amendment, and I would assure him from my own experience of the agricultural population that, if he takes this action, it will improve the prospects of co-operation on his Bill among the whole of the agricultural community. There is a feeling of irritation and disappointment with this attitude of plunging forward on the question of the reclamation of land. The ordinary man asks why money should be wasted on bringing more land under the plough when the land that is already under the plough is not paying. For these reasons, I support this Amendment, and I urge the Minister to accept it if by so doing he will remove from the Bill a point of criticism that is obvious to anyone engaged in agriculture and give the Bill a better chance of securing cooperation.
    Mr. MUFF: May I ask that the windows on the other side of the House shall be opened so that the Opposition will catch cold and not Members on this side?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I gave instructions a few moments ago that the windows be now closed.
    Major G. DAVIES: It is perfectly true that this Clause dealing with the reclamation and drainage of land raises a big issue that has very often been voiced in this House on both sides. It has been a very common charge, when agricultural questions have come up, for hon. Members opposite to say that bad and poor farming and neglect of the land have resulted in the water-logging of land that might be made productive. At first glance, there seems a good deal to be said for that point of view, but it does seem to me that in tackling this problem a Measure of this nature approaches it from the wrong end. The first thing, surely, is to try and visualise what conditions have produced that state of affairs. We see on the other side of the Channel our neighbours spending large sums of money reclaiming great tracts of territory. It is obvious to anyone going around the country that there is need of drainage, but, when it comes to applying the remedy, I suggest that in any event this Clause is premature.
    I knew of some apparently good and desirable land in Somerset that was in an undrained and waterlogged condition. It caused me the same pang of agony that undoubtedly the Minister would experience and illustrates the state of things that he is trying to remedy by this Clause. Therefore, my zeal outrunning my discretion, I took steps to reclaim and drain that land. But when I had repaid the cost of that reclamation I found that the value of the land that was reclaimed was less than the amount I had spent on reclaiming it. That is not a particularly alluring prospect for the owner of the land, nor for the State to risk in our present condition. Therefore, if we find that land is not being farmed in the best possible way or that land has been going out of cultivation owing to faulty drainage, the road of approach is to find out why those who are trying to make their living out of the land are not putting it to the best use. The reason is
    2038
    plain, of course; even unwaterlogged land in the best possible condition does not possibly give a return for the operations on it.
    The Minister is holding out very high hopes of successful experiments to farmers who have the intelligence to be able to carry on their operation at a profit, and I venture to submit that, while the Minister has painted his picture, he has not yet proved his case. If, as is clear, that the first step should be really to implement, as the practical farmer understood it, the undertaking that farming should be made to pay—that is to say, by some form of Government legislation to give a reasonable prospect to the capable farmer of making a living out of his land—then, many of these things could be added unto him. [Interruption.] I mean to the Minister. If the right hon. Gentleman were to take steps in that sequence, then I believe that there would be some prospect of finding out whether we were legislating wisely. It seems to me that we are jumping ahead and holding up those who apparently fall below the standard which the Minister would set for his operations under the aegis of the State and those who have to pass the test of whether their operations are economic or not. This is not the time to discuss the question of prices, but I do suggest that the cause of land going out of cultivation and being waterlogged is that there is not anything to attract the necessary capital to correct that state of affairs on an economic basis.
    The Minister hopes to show us how under present economic conditions farming can be made to pay if those occupying the land make intelligent use of it. We suggest dropping the whole of this Clause from out of the Bill because it cannot work while farmers cannot farm, as under present conditions, on an economic basis. When the occupiers of land get the benefits which are held out to them, the Minister will find that the area of land to which h have alluded will rapidly diminish, as farmers will see that it is worth their while to reclaim the land with reasonable help from the State or the banks on an economic basis. But this Clause not only proposes to spend the money of the State in a direction in which there is no proof' that there will ever be a return, but it is going to penalise people. Under its provisions you can go

    2039
    to people, who are unable to live up to that standard; and say to them, "Because you have allowed your land to become neglected, because the land is not in the fullest possible cultivation, although we have not proved anything, we are going to serve a notice on you to put it right, and, if you do not do it, the State will step in and take it from you." I am not speaking of confiscation and I have not mentioned the word, bat, in doing that, we, the taxpayers, are shouldering an obligation which the occupiers of the land are unable to discharge themselves. We are going to take all the chances of making a failure of it. From whichever point of view you approach it, this Clause should be dropped from the Measure. When the case for it is proved, you can bring it forward as an entirely separate Bill after the Minister has proved his case for the large-scale and mechanised farm. That is why we criticise the retention of this Clause and hope that it will be withdrawn.
    Viscount CRANBORNE: I hope that the Minister will drop this Clause. It is a remarkable example of the "farmer complex" of the right hon. Gentleman and others on that side. Just, as certain of my hon. Friends on this side seem to see the hand of Russia everywhere, so the hon. Members opposite see everywhere the sinister hand of the farmer. The attitude of the hon. Members seems to be that of saying, "This land was in excellent condition, and now it has been allowed to go out of cultivation through the fault of the farmers who had it, either through their inefficiency or their natural vice." Anybody connected with agriculture knows there is only one reason why land goes out of condition, and that is because it does not pay to cultivate it. If you want to get this land back into a proper cultivated state without expense to the nation, you must make farming pay, and immediately all the land will go back into cultivation under the proper conditions.
    The right hon. Gentleman is beginning at the wrong end. He is going to recondition it at the expense of the State and then to work it himself, in which case he will lose more money, or let it to tenant farmers, who will be no better off than other tenant farmers, and the land will
    2040
    soon be back in the condition it was before. I hope he will look at it in the way recommended by agricultural experte—I hesitate to mention the Farmers' Union before him—all of whom agree that agricultural prices are the whole secret. [Interruption.] If there is one particular part of this Clause we dislike most, it is the part with regard to the compulsory powers of the Minister. We hope that the Minister will not take that as a criticism of himself. He is a reasonable man and we can trust him, but he will not be there for ever. All flesh is grass and, although his is a hardy kind of grass, he will be burned up in the furnace like everybody else. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite evidently do not recognise the quotation from the scriptures. It does not mean what they mean.
    I notice with some alarm that, though he may not be in favour of immediate nationalisation of land, yet, whenever the subject is mentioned, there is always a gleam of triumph in the eyes of every hon. Member on that side, and it is extremely probable that the right hon. Gentleman's successors will be much more in favour of State control of the land that he is. It will be no good for him to say then that he did not mean it. They will reply that the law allows them to take over the land, and why should they not do it? We feel that these compulsory powers are dangerous to the State, and we oppose them throughout the Bill. We are not opposing any individual Minister, but the law which allows proceedings of that kind. Students of English literature will remember that Mr. Jorrocks once said that "The law is a hass." All we can do in this House in making the laws is to try to curb its asininity. These compulsory powers, instead of curbing its asininity, gives it full rope. I hope that the Minister will agree to withdraw this Clause.
    Mr. BUTLER: I hope that it will not be amiss if, at this hour, a Member from the arable districts should endeavour, in face of the somewhat twittering behaviour of hon. Members opposite, to bring an air of reality into the Debate which may quieten the giggles worthy of schoolgirls which have been going on for some time. Having addressed myself to the Members

    2041
    on the benches opposite, I turn to the subject which we ought to consider with a great deal more sense and seriousness at the present moment. I appeal to the Minister again, on behalf of the cereal districts. The right hon. Gentleman, by including this Clause in the Bill, is put ting the cart before the horse. He is putting something which does not matter before something which does matter. He knows it perfectly well himself. He has to-day derided the National Farmers' Union—
    Dr. ADDISON: No, I did not.
    Mr. BUTLER: I am right in saying that he does not like the name of the National Farmers' Union. I believe that is a fact which he cannot contest.
    Dr. ADDISON: Hon. Members are trying to sow distrust between myself and the Farmers' Union. I am in consultation with certain leading officers of the Union and I have arranged for them to come and see me on a certain matter.
    Mr. BUTLER: I am extremely glad that the right hon. Gentleman is in touch with the Farmers' Union. I wish, however, to protest against the pointing out of their alleged deficiencies and saying that their opinion does not matter. That is what we have gathered is the attitude of the Government and its supporters. We regret extremely that that organisation, which does represent organised farming in this country, should be so regarded. I know that the union objects very strongly to this provision. At the present time there are people in very genuine distress in this country who are looking to emergency measures for help and not to fancy legislation. I regard this as a. case of fancy legislation. It is something which does not matter in the present crisis. We have heard of a great disturbance in New Zealand. I regard that as an emergency. We have in the arable districts of East Anglia an emergency not so visible but hardly less poignant. I must apologise to the Rouse if I have to treat this subject perfectly seriously at this hour. I only hope that some of the remarks from these Benches will go out to the nation [Interruption.]—It would be out of order if I were to discuss further the emergency in the Eastern part of England, but if we were to act here as if this was the grand committee of the nation where
    2042
    the business of the nation was discussed in a business-like way, we could decide to omit this Clause and not wreck the Bill in one jot or tittle. If we had more than three Members of the Liberal party present, and enough Members to defeat this Clause, I think we should be doing a great national service to the country.
    I seriously protest against a Clause like this being taken at such a ridiculous, hour. We have the opportunity to defeat something, and if we did, the nation would be extraordinarily grateful. We have the opportunity of saving the nation many millions of money by omitting this Clause. We know the condition of the nation's finances, we know the extraordinarily serious condition and what is going on in the City, which is as much as anything due to the distrust of our finance in the world, we know branches of agriculture which for £1,000,000 could have great improvements, such as the sugar beet industry. With some substantial help it would keep land cultivated and give employment. We on this side of the House are facing realities, and we have checked some of the giggling going on for the last half hour on the benches behind the Government. We could save many millions if we could drop this provision, which seems to be directed, as has been said, larely against a person not in his right mind. We have not had sufficient proof that such provisions are wanted in this present emergency. In the struggling position in the country, particularly in East Anglia, the right hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of himself for taking up the time of the House and making a mockery of our institutions.
    Dr. ADDISON: I am sure the hon. Member who has just spoken must have derived a great deal of satisfaction from his speech. I could not connect much of it with the Amendment. He spoke of the earthquake in New Zealand and the price of gold in the City and various things we have done or left undone. He did not produce a single reason why we should not have this Clause except to say that it would be a waste of money. He did not produce a single tittle of evidence. I feel quite unrepentant when confronted with his reproaches. He presumed lack of interest in what was happening to the sugar beet industry and cereals. In due season, I hope to be-able to convince him that he is mistaken.

    2043
    What is our crime? It is that we propose to spend a little money in making better use of our native land. That is supposed to be a waste of money. The hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies) said we must drop the Clause, but that I could press forward when I had proved the case. How am I going to prove the case when I am not to be allowed to try it? If I cannot exercise the power, I cannot prove it. It is a species of logic I am unable to follow. The hon. Member himself speaking of land both he and I know very well, said that it required draining and was waterlogged. I propose we should have power to do what the owners have not done. I do not blame them. They may, or may not, be doing it because they have to pay a great deal in Death Duties. The families may have drawn rather freely for generations on the family inheritance. There are many reasons not involving blame on the present land owners, why the land has not had spent upon it money for works of improvement and maintenance.
    It is clear that we can promote more employment on the land. Surely it was a sensible thing to take power where
    "The Minister is of opinion, with respect to any piece of land, that the execution thereon of reclamation, drainage, or other work is necessary in order to enable the piece of land to be satisfactorily used for agricultural purposes."
    5.0 a.m.
    It is not a mere freak; it is put down in order to bring land into use. It seems to me an entirely praiseworthy and sensible thing to do. The fact that large areas of land need treatment has been attested to by inquiry after inquiry over the last 50 years. It is about time we did take these powers.
    In the second part of the Clause we propose that where any piece of land suitable for use for agricultural purposes cannot be satisfactorily used for those purposes by reason of it being in a seriously neglected condition, the Minister may take it compulsorily if the owner for one reason or another has not been able to execute the necessary works of maintenance. The reason why I am taking this power is not because one man is not quite right in his head. The late Minister of Agriculture did his best to get at one particular case in Hampshire.
    2044
    We all know about that case. This particular man has resisted all attempts of the county council and everybody else. The land is a desert, about 2,000 acres of it, the buildings are in disrepair, roofs are falling in; it is a sea of thistles from one end to the other. I am not concerned whether he is sane or not. What I am concerned with is the land, and I say it is time that someone had power to stop a thing of that sort.
    I agree that this man has distinguished himself in his clever ability to elude the law. He has succeeded in fighting the efforts of the county council and various Ministers of Agriculture for a good long time. By the aid of legal advisers we have, I think, for once scored a point, but I have no faith in the result of our temporary victory. But that is not the only case. I am not blaming anybody. There is the fact and it is absolutely essential that we should be able to execute essential work. It is a discredit to the country that we have not had the power long ago.
    Major GLYN: The House has listened with some astonishment to the last remarks of the Minister. There seems to be that feeling of land hunger which excites the back Benches, and the impression that they can make a better job of the land than the men who have been brought up on it. If they cannot make a living out of it, how can it be hoped that the Minister, by reclaiming land and spending vast sums of money on it, is going to make it pay? There is already an immense amount of land on the market, I am sorry to say at a price which gives little return to those unfortunate enough to own it. There are very few counties in England or Scotland where the owners would not be glad to sell the whole of their land for 15 or 20 years' purchase. But the experience of everybody who lives in the country in regard to the administration by Government offices when land was being controlled for War purposes was sufficient to show that when these people go to the country, they do make most painful mistakes. This is not the time when this country can afford £5,000,000 and a blank cheque to the Minister, no matter how honest he is in his desire to see land brought back to cultivation.
    There is nothing in this Clause to justify the statement of the Minister that

    2045
    there is a great deal of land out of cultivation, which by expenditure for drainage purposes or anything else could be brought back to profitable cultivation. I notice in the Board of Agriculture Blue Book that there are 65,000 acres out of 29,500,000 identified as not used for agriculture. That is a very small percentage. I do feel that the Minister has hardly made out a case which justifies us in putting such a Clause into a Bill at a time when the country is staggering under a vast debt, and when it is very difficult to make the Budget balance. This Amendment, if carried, would give great satisfaction to the taxpayers, whether living in town or country. The money could be far better spent in assisting both small and large holders to produce on land well able to be brought back into cultivation, if you protect your market and allow your people to have a fair chance in your own market.
    My constituency consists of downland and arable land in the vale, and in the old days the parishes were divided into long strips, which were devised for the purpose of grazing in the downland, and gradually, as you came to the richer land below, you had your arable land. During the War a party of inspectors from London went there, and they thought that these ancient arrangements were entirely wrong. They attempted to grow corn on land where it could not be grown at a profit, and they did not grow corn where it could be grown at a profit. This sort of example one sees of official farming does not encourage me to believe that by giving this money to the Minister he will spend it wisely.
    Not a word has been said about the Drainage Bill, and there does not seem to be anything in the Bill saying that the officials must consult the officials of the new catchment areas. It seems to me a form of sloppy legislation to bring in a Bill which is the Alpha and Omega of drainage, and then bring in another Bill which can override the schemes of the catchment authority. As I believe that consultation is necessary in regard to drainage, so I believe that it is necessary in regard to organisations of farmers, county committees and county land officers, and also to the shepherd and farmer. I would like to see this Clause dropped from the Bill.
    Colonel LANE FOX: If there is anything to make us doubtful of how the Clause will work, it was the speech of the Minister just before he left the House. Personally, I would far rather see the duty of reclamation put in the hands of a county agricultural committee consisting largely of men of experience who do not waste money. Take the case of the notorious gentleman in Hampshire. What is he going to do about him? The Minister glories in the fact of spending money, and that means spending £5,000,000, more or less. He was going to spend money in regard to the man in Hampshire, and to turn his place into a model holding, but how did he propose under present conditions of prices to get the money back? The £5,000,000 belonged to the taxpayers, and I defy anyone to explain how they are going to get any proportion of their money back. It is going to be a waste of money to reclaim these large tracts of land in the present condition, unless something can be done to make agriculture a more paying concern. The remedy is one which is not worth applying in present conditions. Much though we wish to see it, we cannot maintain land at the highest standard of cultivation, and the reason that it has gone down is that it has ceased to attract capital. I want to see this Clause taken out. I do not want the Minister to have the chance of wasting all this money. If there was any chance of getting the money back, I would support it, but in present conditions I am not prepared to give the Minister with his previous record a chance of wasting £5,000,000.
    Captain BALFOUR: I should like to associate myself with the protests against the derogatory remarks of the Minister about the speech of the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Butler) when he touched on some factors which are vital in the present circumstances and which showed a recognition of the facts. The Minister said that he was going to spend a little money to make an improvement in the countryside—an admirable sentiment, if it can be carried out. I take particular exception to the reclamation proposals in this Bill, because we are embarking on proposals of a vast national reclamation scheme, and the country is not ready for it. From the agricultural point of view, they know

    2047
    that the Government have allowed farming to drop into a state of depression which has never been touched upon before in our history. If the Government undertake a reclamation scheme, they are bound to put a capital charge on the capital value, and the capital cast would be out of all proportion to the return. That would be a bad business for the taxpayers. The alternative is that the farmer will be called upon to pay a heavy charge on his land. Either the taxpayer or the farmer will have to lose, with agriculture in its present state.
    Another objection to the proposals in this Bill is one that has been touched on from the point of view of drainage. I see nothing which gives any indication that the Minister would take into consideration the need which has been recognised by this House for the co-ordination of the whole of our coast protection. This has a very important bearing on the proposals for reclamation of agricultural land, because a great deal of it is sluiced and dyked, and depends for its reclamation on adequate control of our coasts. The Minister would take a piece of land here and a piece there. He might succeed in the particular place in which he was carrying out his work, but he would do so at the cost of land adjacent, unless the whole coast protection of Great Britain be co-ordinated. For these reasons, I say that this is a bad Bill, that Clause 3 is one of the worst Clauses in a bad Bill, and I sincerely hope that it will be deleted. The right hon. Gentleman talked about a mysterious Mr. X somewhere in Hampshire. I am not cognisant of the facts of that case, but he seemed to take great pride in the Government having prepared a Bill by which Mr. X would get what he deserved. When this Bill has been found unworkable, if it ever reaches the Statute Book, the Government will have one consolation—that Mr. X has been saved by the Bill.
    Lieut. - Colonel RUGGLES - BRISE: The financial Clause to which we shall come later provides a sum of no less than £5,000,000 to be spent between Clauses 2 and 3. I think it is rather remarkable that we have had no indication either in the Committee stage or on Report from the Minister or any other member
    2048
    of the Government as to the division of this £5,000,000 as between the demonstration farms and land reclamation. Perhaps it may be that the Government have no particularly vivid ideas on this subject. The Minister has succeeded in inducing the Chancellor of the Exchequer in these times of national financial distress to say that expenditure up to £5,000,000 may be incurred either in demonstration farms or in land reclamation. But in regard to almost every other subject in connection with this Bill the Minister has been absolutely reticent and refused to enlighten us, or the country, as to how he intends to apply the vast sums of money he will be empowered to spend under this Bill.
    We are entitled to know what amount of money he intends to spend in the reclamation of land. We have no idea at all. Is the expenditure going to be productive, either at this time or any other time? That is the test that ought to be applied to the expenditure of public money. It is a test that ought to be applied, above all, at this particular time when the finances of the country are in such a deplorable condition. Can the Minister say with his hand on his heart that there is any hope of this expenditure being productive? It is within the knowledge of hon. Members on all sides of the House that the expenditure of money to-day on land reclamation for the purposes of agriculture cannot be other than a loss to the nation once and for all. What is the use of bringing more land into agriculture at a time when all the best land in the country is being operated at a loss to the farmer? Would it not be, far better to apply this money to assisting agriculture at the present time to tide over its great difficulties? It may be that £5,000,000 would not save it for long, but we all live in hope that this desperate situation will not last for long. For the Government to come to this House and ask for the expenditure of 25.000,000 in an utterly unpractical manner is nothing short of a grave public scandal, and I sincerely trust that the House will reject this Clause.
    Major COLVILLE: This part of the Bill is well in keeping with the actions of the Government, because whenever the country asks for bread, they give it a stone. When a Government spends time in discussing a Trade Disputes Bill, while

    2049
    trade is being lost, and a Representation of the People Bill while all that the people want is that they shall be properly represented by those whom they have sent to this House, it is not surprising that such a Government should take up drainage and the securing of waterlogged areas, while good areas are going daily out of cultivation. Supposing the Minister does exercise his right, takes over certain ground, spends money on it, reconditions it and gets it into absolutely fertile soil, will he get it into any better order than land, to which I could now take him, that is being turned into grass because the tenants cannot make a living out of it? What good will come of it in the long run unless it can be sure of some return in the end? There are areas of land in this country better than he could hope to reach which are not able to support farmers at the present time.
    The part of the Bill relating to compulsory acquisition is particularly objectionable. It reminds me of the story of Ahab and Naboth's vineyard, but the Minister does not need to turn his face to the wall; all he has got to do is to send his authorities—any person at all—an official of his Department presumably can go down, enter and inspect Naboth's vineyard, say whether he is using it properly or not, bring back his report, and if it is satisfactory from the Minister's point of view, and unsatisfactory from Naboth's point of view, he simply acquires it otherwise than by agreement. We cannot allow that proposal to pass without registering a protest. Some hon. Members opposite regard this with great joy as a lever for nationalising the land. There is another point. How do we know that the taxpayers' money is going to be used on land that is even likely to become suitable for agricultural purposes? We have no guarantee that the Department or the Minister may not make grave mistakes in this matter. They may take land which will be—to use a mixed metaphor—a white elephant to them for many years to come.
    We know that recently in Scotland a certain nobleman offered a. large tract of land in payment of Death Duties, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not take it, because he said that he believed it was land which was not of any
    2050
    immediate use. It is rather a curious reflection that the Chancellor of the party, which claims to be anxious to get the land over to the people at the earliest opportunity, should refuse a large tract of land offered in payment of Death Duties. We have no guarantee that the Minister or Department will not take over large areas of land which they will find themselves obliged to let or work later on. The taxpayer will thus be saddled with the burden of reclaiming the land and keeping it up afterwards. Unless we tackle the question of price, the question of enabling the agriculturist to get his produce sold, we are only tinkering with the question. We ought to press this matter to a Division, because if there is one part of the Bill which is not justified, it is this Clause.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: I confess that in listening to the hon. Member opposite I had some doubts as to whether he had read this Clause or not. He said in one part of his speech that the Minister had power to send persons to examine a man's land and, if they brought back the kind of report the Minister wanted, the Minister then had powers of compulsory acquisition. If these hon. Members would look at the Clause, they would observe that, if there is a dispute between the owner and the Minister as to whether the land is seriously or grossly neglected or not, there is provision for the appointment of a single arbitrator chosen by the President of the Chartered Surveyors' Institution. It is ridiculous to pretend that this is a Clause under which an arbitrary Minister is going to invade private property, seize it arbitrarily, and compulsorily acquire it for a nationalised state. The fact of the matter is that Clause 3 may properly be divided into two sections. There is, first, the section which deals with the case of the land not in a seriously neglected condition, but land which may be improved and where the proprietor for various reasons—the Minister of Agriculture stated some of them—is unable to put his land in order. The Minister has power here, under the first section of this Clause, to acquire that land by agreement, and to put it in proper order in the national interest.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: An awful waste of money
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Hon. Members opposite say it is an awful waste of money to bring neglected land into condition.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The hon. Gentleman was referring to land seriously neglected. There is a great deal of difference between seriously neglected land and grossly neglected land.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Of course there is, and I am going to deal with that. Only by agreement with the owner may the Minister acquire that land on a fair price to be settled ultimately by arbitration, and he may then bring it into a cultivable condition. Is there anything wrong in that?
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: The whole point is this: Is it worth it at the present time, with world prices?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: I will deal with that. Let me first deal with the point raised by hon. Members who have frequently denounced this as if it were a scandalous thing. Is it a waste of public money to secure, on behalf of the nation, at a fair and reasonable price neglected land and to bring that land into cultivable condition? We on this side do not take that view. I will come to the economic side in a moment. The second part deals with grossly neglected land. There has been one instance repeatedly given, the Hampshire instance. There are others. In the case of grossly neglected land, the Minister has power to acquire by compulsion. He need not only acquire by agreement, but by compulsion. The dispute as to whether the land is grossly neglected or not, and the terms on which it is to be taken over, are to be settled by an arbitrator appointed by the President of the Chartered Surveyors' Institution. It is all rhodomontade about arbitrary ministers in Whitehall sending down persons to seize the land anywhere. I see only one substantial objection to the operation of Clause 3 of this Bill, and it is really an irrelevance to this Bill. Ought the land be cultivated at present prices of produce Is it worth doing so? That is another question. The Minister has never suggested that this particular method, which deals with utilisation of land alone, can possibly deal with that part of the problem. It cannot do it, and it is common knowledge that there is another Bill which does attempt to
    2052
    deal with the problem of marketing and prices.
    This Measure is purely a question of the better utilisation of the soil of our country. Clause 3 deals with cases of neglected land. The Government are willing at any time to take the verdict of the country upon this problem. The Government will do it sooner or later, but I am not the arbiter of the date on which it will be done. Sooner or later the proposition will come to the country that where land is in a grossly neglected condition hon. Members opposite wished to prevent the Government from getting powers to deal with the land. We say that steps should be taken to deal with it. If it comes to an argument of economics, I would say it would pay the nation far better to employ thousands of our unemployed fellow-citizens in the useful work of reconditioning the land of our country rather than that they should be maintained in idleness producing nothing for the nation.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The hon. Gentleman has said something with regard to the land in Midlothian. Does he say it applies to the land in Midlothian?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: if I did give that impression, I did not mean it at all.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The hon. Gentleman was to carry it up to Midlothian. People in Midlothian would have a sufficiently accurate knowledge of the present state of farming to give a good judgment on the Bill as between the Government and its critics. He has said that the Bill is divided into two parts. The first part is acquisition, by agreement, of land which might be better cultivated. By what standard is the Ministry of Agriculture going to judge whether land it proposes to acquire by agreement is properly and fully cultivated or not? There was land in Midlothian which three years ago anyone would have thought wrongly cultivated if it was not used for arable farming, was not used up to the highest standard. Individuals now say that, owing to the present situation they are not going on with arable farming. It is a question of the price of agricultural products. Land for which one standard is applicable today may be entirely inapplicable for that standard two years hence. Officials in all Government departments realise that

    2053
    they are not the best judges of what particular farms could be put to the best use.
    The whole situation of arable land is completely changed. It is doubtful, unless the country changes its mind, whether there will be any arable land left in this country before many years are past. By the standard of conditions obtaining up to quite recently, and in some cases even now, it would be grossly improper to use the best arable land for any other purpose, but what the Government Department has to show is that it will be able to carry on to-day without inflicting a very heavy loss upon the national Exchequer. I gather that the Minister wants to enter into occupation, and that the Government should farm land by agreement.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Sub-section (1) of this Clause says:
    "If the Minister is of opinion, with respect to any piece of land, that the execution thereon of reclamation, drainage, or other work is necessary in order to enable the piece of land to be satisfactorily used for agricultural purposes, he may purchase and hold the piece of land and execute thereon such work as aforesaid for the purposes of letting, selling or otherwise disposing of the piece of land when the said work has been executed."
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: He can hold it or let it. You may get a piece of land on which you employ labour and restore it to its original condition by drainage. That might have been good business five years ago, but it would be a waste of money to-day. To think that that kind of thing can be settled by a Government Department is taking an optimistic view of the situation that is not justified.
    Passing on to compulsory acquisition, the whole of the argument in favour of this Clause is also based on the fact that the judgment of the Government Department is likely to be better than that of private individuals. The Minister has quoted the one instance of some individual in Hampshire. I submit that to pick out a particular instance and to take it as typical is grossly unfair. One might pick out a particular instance and take it as typical of the work of a Government Department, but it would be grossly unfair to the Government Department. I have got in my mind just such an instance as that to which the Minister alluded, and it was done by a Government Department. They altered a drain, with the result that there was a great deal of flooding and a great deal of unnecessary expense. It was a thing which no one in an ordinary business way would think of doing. But I am not prepared to say that that is typical of a Government Department's work. That was done and it would be just as unfair to judge the whole Government Department by that as it is to take the instance the Minister has quoted as typical. The prospect, if this is carried out, will be most unfortunate. Peace between farmers and labourers, and between farmers and owners, is not likely to be promoted by putting them in the difficult position that this Clause will do.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 87.

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Mansfield, W.

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Hollins, A.

    Marcus, M.

    Shield, George William

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Markham, S. F.

    Shillaker, J. F

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Marley, J.

    Shinwell, E.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Mathers, George

    Simmons, C. J.

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Matters, L. W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Messer, Fred

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Johnston, Thomas

    Middleton, G.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Mills, J. E.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Milner, Major J.

    Smith, Tom (Pontetract)

    Kinley, J.

    Montague, Frederick

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Lang, Gordon

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Morley, Ralph

    Strauss, G. R.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Mort, D. L.

    Sullivan, J.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Muff, G.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Lawson, John James

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Tout, W. J.

    Leach, W.

    Palin, John Henry

    Wallace, H. W.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Perry, S. F.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Westwood, Joseph

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Longden, F.

    Potts, John S.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Lunn, William

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Iuce)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    McElwee, A.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Romeril, H. G.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    McKinlay, A.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Rowson, Guy

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.

    McShane, John James

    Sanders, W. S.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Poto, Sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I.of Thanet)

    Flson, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Balniel, Lord

    Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Glyn, Major R. G. C

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Savery, S. S.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Southby, Commander A. R. J

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major s. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj, Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cazalet, Captain victor A.

    Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Christie, J. A.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Macdonald. Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Sir George Penny and Major the Marquess of Titchfield.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'any' in page 5, line 1, stand part of the Bill,"
    The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 87.

    Division No. 121.]

    AYES.

    [6.4 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, Weat)

    Arnott, John

    Batey, Joseoh

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Bennett, William (Batteraea, South)

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Benson, G.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Barnes, Altred John

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Ammon, Charles George

    Barr, James

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Perry, S. F.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Peters. Dr. Sidney John

    Caine, Oerwent Hall

    Kelly, W. T.

    Pethlck-Lawrimce, F. W.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Potts, John S.

    Charieton, H. C.

    Klnley, J.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Chater, Daniel

    Lang, Gordon

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawrence, Susan

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Romeril, H. G.

    Daggar, George

    Lawson, John James

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Dallas, George

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Rowson, Guy

    Dalton, Hugh

    Leach, W.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Dukes, C.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Duncan, Charles

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Shield, Gtorga William

    Ede, James Chuter

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Longden, F.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Bsn (Bermondsey, Rotherbltbe)

    Freeman, Peter

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    MacDonald, Maicolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)

    McElwee, A.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Gill, T. H.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Glattey, A. E.

    McKinlay, A.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gossling, A. G.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gould, F.

    McShane, John James

    Sullivan, J.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Maione, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Gray, Milner

    Mantfield, W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Marcus, M.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Markham, S. F.

    Tout, W. J.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Marley, J.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Mathers, George

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Matters, L. W.

    Watts.Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Messer. Fred

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Middleton, G.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Mills, J. E.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Harbord, A.

    Milner, Major J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hardie, George D.

    Montague, Frederick

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Morley, Ralph

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Herriotts, J.

    Mort, D. L.

    Wilson, R. J. Marrow)

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Muff, G.

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Oltlfield, J. R.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Holllns, A.

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Palin, John Henry.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Allen, W. E. D. (Beltast, W.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecciesall)

    Balnlel, Lord

    Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Savery, S. S.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Brlscoe, Richard George

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.

    Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stuart. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.SirJ.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lamb, Sir J. O.

    Titchfield. Major the Marquess of

    Christie, J. A.

    Leighton. Major B. E. P.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornby)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Crichton-Stnart, Lord C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Cunllffe-Lister. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davidson, Rt, Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Davies, Maj, Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovll)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Sir George Penny and Captain D. Margesson.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in page 5, line 1, to leave out the words "any steps which he could have taken to secure," and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "reasonable steps to reserve or enforce any right for securing."
    It was contended in Committee that the words in the Bill did not make our intention quite clear, and I undertook to try to improve upon the wording. This is, I think, an improvement on the wording, which means the same thing, but makes it clearer.
    Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."
    Obviously, both on the merits of the case and the predilections of the Minister alike, we have reached a stage at which this is the most apropriate Motion that can be made to the House. The Minister has carried through his vigil. He has set the House a task to find something useful to do until such time as
    "The dawn comes up like thunder out of China cross the bay And there are some buses running from the House to Mandalay."
    Having reached the time when I think every form of traffic is now in motion, and the House having discharged with zeal, patience and tact, and with reasonable tempers, the duty not imposed on it by the will of many of its Members, but by the Minister who, I must say, has behaved a little like a master who keeps the class in for an hour or two and then says, "What can we find useful to do?" [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the kindergarten?"] We have all been kept in in earlier days in circumstances like that. [An HON. MEMBER: "You liked it!"] We liked it all right, but we would rather have been playing some other game outside. [Interruption.] On those occasions we behaved very much as this House invariably behaves during an all-night sitting. We generally found that when we were kept in for many hours we did not get far in the lesson, or get very much work done. I do not think we have got very far, and, after sitting up all night. I doubt whether we have got further than by a little tactful arrangement we probably would have got without sitting up late. It is what always happens when you are kept sitting up all night. [An HON. MEMBER: "The
    2060
    amateurs!"] There are too many amateurs in the negotiations. I was brought up very early to believe that negotiations should be conducted through the usual professional channels. When you sit up all night you do not get very far. The House gets into a general temper of thinking that you will sit up to-night, and all the next night, and that is not good for the House or for getting business done.
    For these reasons, I think that we should adjourn. [Interruption.] Let hon. Members opposite be assured that if this is merely to be a test of endurance, we shall go on quite as well and as long as they will, and not only on one night, but on many nights. [interruption.] I realise that the sole desire of hon. Members opposite and their allies is not only that we shall secure no representation in this House, but that even those of us who are fortunate enough to represent a few hundred thousand people in a constituency shall have no opportunity of speaking here. Hon. Gentleman have not yet quite accomplished it, but that is their desire—to convert this House from a Council of State and a deliberative assembly into a Soviet for registering decrees. Incidentally, this would be rather a good Bill to begin with, as it consists of a Bill against the kulaki who are to he driven out of their smallholdings, because they committed the only offence, apparently, of daring to own their land, and are to be made subject to a decree. At this hour of the morning it is very undesirable that we should embark upon the extreme intricacies of this Clause. The right hon. Gentleman began to move his first Amendment by saying that it is difficult to find the appropriate words to define an intention. It is very difficult to deal with these points now. A great deal has been left to the discretion of the Minister. It is a Clause whose complicated details have to be very fully discussed. The House will not he at its best, after an all-night sitting, in trying to deal with the very complicated Amendments which must come upon this Clause.
    Dr. ADDISON: The right hon. Gentleman's colleagues will welcome the right hon. Gentleman's reappearance.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his kind remark, but I have been here all night.
    Dr. ADDISON: I was only pointing out that he had not been in the class. He has taken a few minutes to advance reasons for his Motion. I should have been only too glad hours and hours ago to come to some understanding. I should like to come to some understanding as to how to finish the Report stage of this Bill. I said I would consider a reasonable arrangement. At the same time, there is no justification for stopping in the middle of this Clause.
    Lieut. - Colonel HENEAGE: The Minister is trying the House a little far. I will give him a personal reason why we should adjourn now. I had an Amendment down about which the Lord Advocate promised to communicate with me. Although I have been waiting for it, no such communication has been received. The right hon. Gentleman has not realised that this Bill is greatly unpopular in the country, that not a single association or body representing agricultural opinion has supported it. This Bill is a new step towards nationalisation while it is, as is not realised, the first step towards upsetting the Drainage Act.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: May I point out, as a reason for bringing the Debate to a termination, that we are discussing a Clause which is to involve an expenditure of £5,000,000 of national money, which represents the interest on one of the largest items of our National Debt. We have had a little over an hour and a quarter to discuss the whole question of land drainage for which the Minister takes power in this Bill. There has not been a single speech of an obstructive character. There is little chance even now of moving Amendments which will make the Clause workable. We are going to send it to the courts to be interpreted. The courts will wonder how Parliament could have passed such a Clause. That is the way the country's business is being conducted. It is a farce. It is a discredit to this assembly. It is bringing the prestige of this Parliament lower and lower—fiddling at this kind of discussion when what the country wants is radical methods of dealing with
    2062
    the serious economic problems which confront it. There was a gentleman who made a hobby of buying up national institutions and destroying them. That seems to be the process in which tile Government are engaged—sapping the confidence of the nation in its national institutions.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: About half-past twelve I moved the adjournment of the Debate in the expectation that the right hon. Gentleman would indicate a reasonable time at which he would adjourn the Debate. He indicated no particular point of progress in the Bill. He said that in about six hours would be the time he would probably discuss this matter again. The only reason he gave for his action was that since we had sat past the hour at which trams, omnibuses and trains moved, he thought it proper to call upon us to sit until they ran again. It was the only reason given, and it no longer holds good. He now keeps the House sitting because he and others behind him have lost their tempers. I have seen it happen before. Hon. Gentlemen behind the Minister are annoyed at having to sit up. They then encourage the Minister to be unreasonable in his conduct of the Bill. He refuses to accept Amendments he could perfectly well put into the Bill without injuring it from his own point of view. They encourage him in an attitude of stupid opposition and obstinate persistence. I do not think that any wise Leader of the House lends himself to being guided by that sort of pressure or encouragement. He ought to have more regard for the dignity of the House and for the conditions in which business can be satisfactorily conducted. He shows no regard for the Opposition. He offers reasons across the Floor which he does not hold by himself, and which he knows are an absurdity. Now he does not encourage the forwarding of business. No Government can be successfully conducted on these methods.
    Dr. ADDISON: Some hours ago I pointed out how useful it would be to make further progress with the Bill. I

    2063
    fully expected that we should have got very much further than we have got. The Bill has certainly been most meticulously discussed, but it is not Members on this side of the House who have taken up time. I would be very glad indeed if by some arrangement we could finish the Report stage by what will now be this evening. The first and third Clause contain the most important points. There is not much difference between hon. Members opposite and ourselves on other parts. If we cannot get an arrangement, it is inadvisable to stop in the middle of this Clause. I hope that the House will reject this Motion.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKS: The Minister said it was not his side of the House which was responsible for this discussion. He could have accepted one Amendment long before he did. There is also the absolutely inexcusable example of

    Division No. 122.]

    AYES.

    [6.42 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Grenfcll, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    McShane, John James

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mansfield, W.

    Alpass, J. H.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Marcus, M.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Markham, S. F.

    Arnott, John

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Marley, J.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Mathers, George

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Matters, L. W.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Harbord, A.

    Messer, Fred

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Hardie, George D.

    Middleton, G.

    Barr, James

    Haycock, A. W.

    Mills, J. E.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hayes, John Henry

    Milner, Major J.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, south)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Montague. Frederick

    Benson, G.

    Herriotts, J.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Morley, Ralph

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Mort, D. L.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Hollins, A.

    Muff, G.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

    Burgess, F. G.

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Palin, John Henry

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Charleson, H. C.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Perry, S. F.

    Chater, Daniel

    Kelly, W. T.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Ciarke, J. S.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Potts, John S.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kinley, J.

    Pybus, Percy John

    Compton, Joseph

    Lang, Gordon

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. Georfld

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Daggar, George

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Raynes, W. R.

    Dallas, Gtorge

    Lawrence, Susan

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Romeril, H. G.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lawson, John James

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Dukes, C.

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Rowson, Guy

    Duncan, Charles

    Leach, W.

    Sanders, W. S.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwetlty)

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Shield, George William

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lonqbottom, A. W.

    Shinwell, E.

    Freeman, Peter

    Longden, F.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Motsliy)

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)

    Gill, T. H.

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Giassey, A. E.

    MacDonald, Malcoim (Bassetiaw)

    Smith, nennie (Penlstone)

    Gossling, A. G.

    McElwee, A.

    Smith, Tom (Pontetract)

    Gould, F.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    McKinlay, A.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gray, Milner

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Strauss, G. R.

    the right hon. Gentleman flinging across the Floor of the House the suggestion that an Amendment was inserted at the request of a Member on this side when the whole incident was found to rest in the imagination of the right hon. Gentleman himself. The right hon. Gentleman cannot escape from the charge of wasting a very considerable amount of the time of the House. He might have given himself two more hours in which to discuss his Bill if he had not been so extremely foolish as to waste two hours discussing the Noble Lord's Amendment and then giving way.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 162; Noes, 84.

    Sullivan, J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Westwood, Joseph

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Tout, W. J.

    Williams, David (Swansea, Eatt)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Wallace, H. W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Paling.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Giyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel t. A.

    Bainiel, Lord

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bird, Ernest Ray

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Boyce, Leslie

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Chamberlain Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Christie, J. A.

    Liwellin, Major J. J.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Clydesdale, Marquess of

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of

    Colvllle, Major D. J.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Warrender, Sir victor

    Crchton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Wells, Sydney R.

    CroGkshank,Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Galntbro)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Ctrencester)

    Windsor-Clive, Lfeut.-Colonel George

    Cunliffe-Llster, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Womerstey, W. J.

    Davias, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Penny, Sir George

    Captain Sir George Bowyer and

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Captain Euan Wallace.

    Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned." 162.

    Division No. 123.]

    AYES.

    [6.50 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Flson, F. G. Clavering

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecciesall)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanat)

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Bainiel, Lord

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawlord

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Boyce, Leslie

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Tntnes)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Brlacoe, Richard George

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Henncssy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Christie, J. A.

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Ciydesdale, Marquess of

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Maedonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Wells, Sydney R.

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Galnsbro)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Davies Maj. Geo. F.(Somerwt, Yeovil)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Major the Marquess of Titchfield and Captain Euan Wallace.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Penny, Sir George

    Dugdate, Capt. T. L.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Arnott, John

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Barr, James

    Alpass, J. H.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Batey, Joseph

    The House divided: Ayes, 83; Noes, 162.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Benson, G.

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Hollins, A.

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Palin, John Henry

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Perry, S. F.

    Brown, Ernett (Leith)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Potts, John S.

    Burgess, F. G.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Pybus, Percy John

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Johnston, Thomas

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Charleson, H. C.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Raynes, W. R.

    Chater, Daniel

    Kinley, J.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lang, Gordon

    Romeril, H. G.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Compton, Joseph

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Rowson, Guy

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sanders, W. S.

    Daggar, George

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Dallas, George

    Lawson, John James

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Shield, George William

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Leach, W.

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Dukes, C.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Shinwell, E.

    Duncan, Charles

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Simmons, C. J.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Longden, F.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Freeman, Peter

    Lunn, William

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gill, T. H.

    McElwee, A.

    Sullivan, J.

    Glassey, A. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Gossling, A. G.

    McKinlay, A.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Gould, F.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    McShane, John James

    Tout, W. J.

    Gray, Milner

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Wallace, H. W.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mansfield, W.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Marcus, M.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Grundy, Thomas w.

    Markham, S. F.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Marley, J.

    Westwood, Joseph

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mathers, George

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Matters, L. W.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Messer, Fred

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Middleton, G.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Harbord, A.

    Mills, J. E.

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Hardie, George D.

    Milner, Major J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Haycock, A. W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Morley, Ralph

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Mort, D. L.

    Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Paling.

    Herriotts, J.

    Muff, G.

    Original Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. GREENE: On a point of Order, I espy strangers.
    Earl WINTERTON: On a point of Order. Your attention, Mr. Speaker, having been called to the presence of strangers in the House, is it not within the Rules of the House that you put the Question forthwith, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw"?
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On this point, I do not see why my hon. Friends should choose this time of the day to exclude the public from the Galleries of the House of Commons. I must appeal to the House to preserve the rights of the public on this particular occasion. [Interruption.] This is really most important. Is it not very—
    Mr. E. BROWN: On a point of Order. Is it in order to debate this Motion?
    Question, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw," put, and negatived.
    Original Question again proposed.
    Mr. BARR: On a point of Order. I trust the withdrawal of strangers will not mean, what we had on the last occasion—that the Official Reporters had to withdraw, that there were no reporters, and that no report was given.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Question was put and negatived.
    Mr. HALL-CAINE: On a point of Order. A stranger was taken out a few minutes ago.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE rose—
    Mr. HALL-CAINE: Can the stranger be brought back?
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Surely it is the fact that the stranger removed himself, and was not removed?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think all this is contrary to the dignity of the House.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The Amendment under discussion is one of considerable interest, and no little importance. It is one which I cannot say has very much good in it. The only thing I can say in its favour is that it would make the Bill less bad than if it were not accepted. The Amendment is, I think, a perfectly genuine attempt on the part of the Minister to amend one of the weaker parts of the Bill. I do not wish in any way to make out that the Minister has not done his best to try to meet a definite grievance on this matter, but the trouble is that, as far as I read the Amendment, I am not quite certain what it means. Hon. Friends whom I have asked for a legal interpretation give me to understand that at least one or two of the most acute brains in the House have not been able to explain what this Amendment means. Take the first word—" reasonable." That word in connection with the Minister is almost contradictory. Does the insertion of the word "reasonable" in any way give the owner further power for making these improvements? Obviously, there are, many handicaps in the way of an owner making improvements which are perfectly legal—in the way of leases and so on—but which are not always reasonable handicaps.
    This is a complicated and difficult point, bound to be decided sooner or later in the Law Courts. If any of my legal friends could interpret the position as regards this important point, I would very much like to hear what the position is. The main idea lying at the back of this Amendment is that the Minister is dealing with this question of an owner getting his property into order, and, having sent his notice to the owner, trying to come to that point where he may or may not have to force his powers on the owner. The main part of the Amendment is helpful in this matter, but when you have an Amendment which has a very direct and varied bearing on the lives of a great many people, there must be much greater clarity, and some better definition from the Minister of what he
    2070
    means by "reserve or enforce any right for securing." It seems to be a phrase of the worst type of English which could have been chosen, and it ought not to be here. It would be much better if one of the other Amendments on the Order Paper had been accepted, or if the Minister had kept the original words and put in "reasonable" before "any." If the Minister had dealt with it in that way in Committee, he would have avoided bringing it on the Floor of the House. Unfortunately, he has not the cast of mind which enables him to help these things through in an easy way. Although it is better on the whole, the Minister has failed, as before, to make matters perfectly clear so far as this Amendment is concerned, and it is therefore not one which we can accept.
    Captain BOURNE: I believe that this Amendment was put down by the Minister in consequence of one I raised in Committee. The case in my mind is where, owing to the occupier, drains, hedges and ditches get out of repair, and the land gets into a state of bad cultivation. Under the existing law, practically the only remedy the landlord has is to apply to the agricultural committee for a certificate of bad husbandry. If he did not get that, he would not be in a position to enforce his covenants against his tenant. [Interruption.] The tenant would have a very good ground for defence in the county court because he could point out that the landlord had applied for a certificate of bad husbandry which had been refused. How far does the Amendment cover these cases? I am very doubtful whether they are covered. Since the law has given the tenant very strong protection and security of tenure under the Agricultural Holdings Acts, it should not penalise the landlord because owing to that security of tenure, he cannot enforce the obligations of tenure in the same way.
    Mr. W. S. MORRISON: There is one matter on which I wish the Minister would enlighten the House and myself. There is a case of a particular landowner which has troubled the House for some time. Does this provision, as amended, affect that particular case? If so, we ought to have more information from the Minister as to that case and the difficulty that has arisen, so that we can see if the proposed words will meet that case with-

    2071
    out hardship to any other individual. We ought to be particularly careful that no tyrannous powers are taken by the Minister to get over the obstinacy of one individual. We take different views of obstinacy according to whether the party concerned is opposed to us or not. The House ought to have some more information about the particular difficulty that has arisen. We must take care there is no tyrannous action on the part of the administration against the wretched individual who has been singled out for the purpose of having a section of this Bill drafted to overcome him. We ought to know whether the words chosen are suitable for the purpose. In view of the previous course of this Bill, this vigilance on our part, is more than ever necessary. We used to hear hon. Members below the Gangway speak of getting

    Division No. 124.]

    AYES.

    [7.21 a.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Marley, J.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mathers, George

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Matters, L. W.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Messer, Fred

    Alpass, J. H.

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Middleton, G.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Harbord, A.

    Mills, J. E.

    Arnott, John

    Hardie, George D.

    Milner, Major J.

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Haycock, A. W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Morley, Ralph

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Herriotts, J.

    Mort, D. L.

    Barr, James

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Muff, G.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    Hoillns, A.

    Oliver, George Harold (likeston)

    Benson, G.

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Bowen, J. W.

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Palin, John Henry.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Perry, S. F.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Kelly, W. T.

    Potts, John S.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Pybus, Percy John

    Charleson, H. C.

    Kinley, J.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lang, Gordon

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Clarke, J. S.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Raynes, W. R.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Compton, Joseph

    Lawrence, Susan

    Romeril, H. G.

    Daggar, George

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Dallas, George

    Lawson, John James

    Rowson, Guy

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Sanders, W. S.

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Leach, W.

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Dukes, C.

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Duncan, Charles

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Shield, George William

    Ede, James Chuter

    Lloyd, C. Eills

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Shinwell, E.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    Longden, F.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Freeman, Peter

    Lunn, William

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Gill, T. H.

    McElwee, A.

    Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

    Glassey, A. E.

    McEntee, V. L.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Gossling, A. G.

    McKinlay, A.

    Sullivan, J.

    Gould, F.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    McShane, John James

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Gray, Milner

    Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mansfield, W.

    Tout, W. J.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

    Marcus, M.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Markham, S. F.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    the land for the people. Now they are supporting a Measure which aims at taking away the land from the people and giving it to the Civil Service.
    Mr. PYBUS: In view of the hon. Gentleman's statement about the Liberal party, may I say that he evidently does not understand the Bill?
    Mr. MORRISON: I did not speak in regard to the Liberal party. That would require a tongue more ambiguous than I can command.
    Dr. ADDISON Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided: Ayes, 162; Noes, 77.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Khondda)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Williams, T. (York, Don valley)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    W cat wood, Joseph

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Ben Smith.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Williams, Davld (Swansea, East)

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Ailen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Ailen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Bainlef, Lord

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Stanley, Lord (Fyide)

    Boyce, Leslie

    Harvey, Major s. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Butler, R. A.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)

    Liewellin, Major J. J.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Christle, J. A.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Ciydesdale, Marquess of

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Major Sir George Hennessy and

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Sir George Penny.

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put accordingly, and negatived.
    Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in page 5, line 15, at the end, to insert the words:
    "Provided that a notice under this sub-section requiring any person to execute works of maintenance shall not be valid if and to the extent that it requires such person to execute works the execution of which is rendered impossible by the subsidence of any land or the blocking of out-falls which are not under the control of that person."
    The object of this Amendment is a very simple one. It is to meet the case where flooding takes place and where land gets into a waterlogged condition owing to subsidence of land not under the control of the owner, but subsidence further down over which the owner has no control whatsoever. It is quite a reasonable condition that the owner should not be held responsible for that over which he has no control. I believe that this problem is a very serious one in many parts of England where the real trouble is due to mining subsidence.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    2074
    This question is one of considerable importance, and the Amendment is one which, I think, the Minister will find it almost impossible to refuse. This matter of subsidence is not merely a question of drainage, and this Amendment is intended to deal definitely with the case of subsidence due in some cases to old mines. In Cornwall there are some areas which it is never really possible to keep in proper order. In Cheshire also, where you have salt mines, you have cases of subsidence and difficulties in connection with the land which would clearly make it quite unfair to bring these powers into action against an owner. Where you have such cases it is not practicable for the Minister to interfere. I hope that on this occasion, as we have tried to approach the Minister with every sort of reasonableness, courtesy and brevity, he will accept the Amendment.
    Dr. ADDISON: This Amendment is unnecessary, because, in the first place, it clearly would be unreasonable if the Minister should require any person to execute works the execution of which is rendered impossible by something or other. It would clearly be unreasonable to ask somebody to do something which, in the nature of things, is impossible. That particular case is covered by Subsection (5), which says:

    2075
    "In the event of any dispute between the Minister and any person"—
    on the ground that"—
    "any requirements of the notice are unreasonable."
    There is another provision which also covers that case. In this particular case, the execution of works made impossible by subsidence of land not under the control of the person concerned, would be another reason why it would be unreasonable. Hon. Members should also look at paragraph (b), Sub-section (5).
    Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: The right hon. Gentleman has rather skated over the difficulties of this Amendment. Of course, there are cases in which it is obviously impossible for the work to be done, and they are covered in another part of the Clause. There are many cases where it is not absolutely impossible for the work to be done, and it would be difficult, and in the long run doubtful, whether it would be worth while to do the work. I have in mind a place like Doncaster where the subsidence is very serious, and I am not sure it would come in, in regard to being "impossible." There are some areas where flooding is caused partly by the surrounding country and partly by the breaking of the brick drains by the sinking land. It is possible to replace the drains, but it is not proved that the subsidence has ceased. I maintain that this case is covered by the Clause, but there may be cases where an Order may be made although the actual work is not really worth doing. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has been rather unreasonable.
    Mr. TURTON: I will ask the Minister to deal with a point which has not been dealt with in the Amendment. Under the Land Drainage Act, 1930, Section 35, a

    Division No. 125.]

    AYES.

    [7.53 a.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Christie, J. A.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

    Colville, Major D. J.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Balniel, Lord

    Crichton-stuart, Lord C.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Beaumont, M. W.

    Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes)

    Bird, Ernest Roy

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

    Boyce, Lesile

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Lamb, Sir J. Q.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Liewellin. Major J. J.

    Butler, R. A.

    Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

    Lockwood, Captain J. H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lymington, Viscount

    Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

    Ferguson, Sir John

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Chamberlain.Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

    Fison, F. G. Clavering

    Margesson, Captain H. D.

    person having control of the bed of a river is under an obligation to clean it out, and if he does not exercise his obligations and floods occur on adjacant land, will the owner of that land be under an obligation under this Clause or not t Perhaps the Minister will consider that point.
    Mr. ATTLEE: I think that the hon. and gallant Member for North-West Hull (Sir A. Lambert Ward) was arguing against the Amendment. In regard to the point raised by the hon. Member who spoke last, my right hon. Friend will certainly look into this matter.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: The Government do not., I think, understand the point of this Amendment. Doncaster is hopelessly muddled by the Land Drainage Act. I think that the Government find the rates in Doncaster cast more to collect, than the actual money received. In my part of the country We have got two specific instances where, I think, this will be of use. One is a case where the Ministry stepped in and put an extraordinary dam at the mouth of a river, probably in War time, but it caused a great deal of silting-up of mud. I agree that the owners of that dam might be made responsible for clearing that river. The second case is higher up where there was a very severe flood and great loss of life. I think that that was not due to anything but an act of God, but there was one case where the owner might have been prejudiced, and I suggest that if the Minister accepts, this Amendment, he will do a very good' thing.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 73; Noes, 159.

    Marjoribanks, Edward

    Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

    Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

    Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

    Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Muirhead, A. J.

    Southby, Commander A. R. J.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Stanley, Lord (Fyide)

    Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George

    O'Connor, T. J.

    Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Penny, Sir George

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Womersley, W. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Ramsbotham, H.

    Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

    Major Sir George Hennetsy and

    Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Captain Sir George Bowjrer.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Todd, Capt. A. J.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Harbord, A.

    Morley, Ralph

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hardie, George D.

    Mort, D. L.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

    Haycock, A. W.

    Oldfield, J. R.

    Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

    Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

    Oliver, George Harold (liketton)

    Alpass, J. H.

    Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

    Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Herriotts, J.

    Palin, John Henry

    Arnott, John

    Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

    Paling, Wilfrid

    Aske, Sir Robert

    Hoffman, P. C.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hollins, A.

    Perry, S. F.

    Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

    Hopkin, Daniel

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Barnes, Alfred John

    Horrabin, J. F.

    Potts, John S.

    Barr, James

    Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

    Pybus, Percy John

    Batey, Joseph

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

    Benson, G.

    Johnston, Thomas

    Raynes, W. R.

    Bowen, J. W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Broad, Francis Alfred

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon, Thomas

    Romeril, H. G.

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

    Kinley, J.

    Rosbotham, D. S. T.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Lang, Gordon

    Rowson, Guy

    Brawn, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Sanders, W. S.

    Burgess, F. G.

    Law, A. (Rossendale)

    Sawyer, G. F.

    Caine, Derwent Hall-

    Lawrence, Susan

    Sherwood, G. H.

    Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

    Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

    Shield, George William

    Charieton, H. C.

    Lawson, John James

    Shillaker, J. F.

    Chater, Daniel

    Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

    Shinwell, E.

    Clarke, J. S.

    Leach, W.

    Simmons, C. J.

    Cocks, Frederick Saymour

    Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Daggar, George

    Lloyd, C. Ellis

    Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

    Dallas, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Smith. Rennie (Penlstone)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Longbottom, A. W.

    Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Longden, F.

    Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

    Dukes, C.

    Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

    Strauss, G. R.

    Duncan, Charles

    Lunn, William

    Sullivan, J.

    Ede, James Chuter

    Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

    Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

    Edmunds, J. E.

    Mac Donald, Malcolm (Bastetlaw)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)

    McElwee, A.

    Tout, W. J.

    Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

    McEntee, V. L.

    Wallace, H. W.

    Elmley, Viscount

    McKinlay, A.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Freeman, Peter

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Gardner, B. W. (West Ham. Upton)

    McShane, John James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gill, T. H.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thamptsa)

    Westwood, Joseph

    Glassey, A. E.

    Mansfield, W.

    Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

    Gossling, A. G.

    Marcus, M.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gould, F.

    Markham, S. F.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Marley, J.

    Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

    Gray, Milner

    Mathers, George

    Wilson, J. (Oldham)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Matters, L. W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Messer, Fred

    Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Middleton, G.

    Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mills, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)

    Milner, Major J.

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Thurtle.

    Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)

    Montague, Frederick

    Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B.

    Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
    Perhaps I might mention that an understanding has been reached in regard to the future progress of the Bill, which is, in effect, that we meet this day to continue the consideration of the Report stage, when we shall not, be re-
    2078
    quired to sit unreasonably late. The final stages of the Bill will be concluded on Tuesday evening by Eleven o'clock. That is the arrangement.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Ordered, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."

    2079
    Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered this day.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at Five Minutes after Eight o'Clock a.m.

ROYAL NAVY.
  CABERS.
  CABERS.
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "EREBUS."
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "EREBUS."
  DARTMOUTH COLLEGE.
  DARTMOUTH COLLEGE.
  MATES.
  MATES.
  ENLISTMENT.
  ENLISTMENT.
  SENIOR FOREMEN (SERVICE ABROAD).
  SENIOR FOREMEN (SERVICE ABROAD).
  CHATHAM DOCKYARD (EMPLOYMENT).
  CHATHAM DOCKYARD (EMPLOYMENT).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  INSURANCE.
  INSURANCE.
  EMPLOYMENT (STATISTICS).
  EMPLOYMENT (STATISTICS).
TRANSPORT.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS.
  ROAD ACCIDENTS.
  WOOL WICH.
  WOOL WICH.
  MOTOR VEHICLES (INSURANCE).
  MOTOR VEHICLES (INSURANCE).
POST OFFICE.
  SAVINGS BANK DEPARTMENT (LIGHTING).
  SAVINGS BANK DEPARTMENT (LIGHTING).
  TELEGRAMS (CHARGES).
  TELEGRAMS (CHARGES).
  SMALL-PDX.
  SMALL-PDX.
  KENYA (NATIVE ASSOCIATIONS, ACCOUNTS).
  KENYA (NATIVE ASSOCIATIONS, ACCOUNTS).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  CLERICAL CLASS, PROMOTION.
  CLERICAL CLASS, PROMOTION.
  TAX OFFICES, CAMBRIDGE.
  TAX OFFICES, CAMBRIDGE.
  VIVISECTION.
  VIVISECTION.
  NATIONAL PARKS COMMITTEE (REPORT).
  NATIONAL PARKS COMMITTEE (REPORT).
  PROPOSED NEW SCHOOLS, SWADLINCOTE AREA.
  PROPOSED NEW SCHOOLS, SWADLINCOTE AREA.
  ADVISORY COMMITTEES, BRECON SHIRE AND RADNORSHIRE.
  ADVISORY COMMITTEES, BRECON SHIRE AND RADNORSHIRE.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LORD HYNDLEY.
Sir John Scott Hindley, Baronet, having been created Baron Hyndley, of Meads in the County of Sussex—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD RUTHERFORD OF NELSON.
Sir Ernest Rutherford, Knight, O.M., having been created Baron Rutherford of Nelson, of Cambridge in the County of Cambridge—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
EDUCATION (LOCAL AUTHORITIES) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
NEATH CANAL NAVIGATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
ROYSTON AND BRODSWORTH GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).

CADET CORPS: CERTIFICATE A.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW rose to call attention to the injustice inflicted on boys educated at schools where there is no officers training corps by the withdrawal of the privilege of gaining an A certificate through their school cadet corps; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, you will remember that last year, although a sum of £10,700 was provided for in the Estimates for the grants

805
to cadets, and in spite of the fact that the Secretary of State for War, in the usual Memorandum which accompanied the Estimates, quoted with pride and satisfaction—so it seemed to me—the success which had attended the efforts of the cadets during the year preceding the issue of the Estimates, a sudden volte face was executed before the Estimate was actually presented to the House of Commons and the grant was withdrawn. The cadet corps was condemned by the Secretary of State for War on educational and moral grounds, and every kind of recognition was withdrawn from it as from November 1 last. I do not want to raise again the whole of that question, because it was fully discussed in your Lordships' House last March. I will only say that the condemnation which your Lordships gave to the action of the Government on that occasion has been fully confirmed and endorsed throughout the country since, especially by those who have anything to do with, or know anything whatever about, the training and education of boys.
Of course, the noble Lord who will reply for the Government on this Question had nothing whatever to do with the action of the Secretary of State for War, because he did not then fill the responsible post which he now holds; another noble Lord stood in his place. So I would appeal to him for his sympathy towards these unfortunate boys and I hope I shall not appeal in vain. When the noble Lord entered on his career he chose, voluntarily as we all do, to be an officer. He joined one of the most distinguished corps in His Majesty's Service, and in that corps during peace and war he earned great distinction. I hope, therefore, that he will do all he can to help these unfortunate people who have been penalised by the action of the Secretary of State for War.
The main point I wish to bring to your Lordships' attention is the prejudicial action of the Secretary of State in regard to boys educated in certain schools. A certificate of proficiency, generally known as certificate A, was obtainable until last November, both by boys belonging to an officers training corps and those belonging to a cadet corps. Most secondary schools have either an officers training corps or a cadet corps. There is not, however, any particular reason
806
why a school should have one or the other. There is not enough money to give an officers training corps to every school, and so it happens that some schools may not be able to possess one and have a cadet corps instead. But so far as certificate A was concerned equality of opportunity existed and, whether a boy joined a cadet corps or an officers training corps, he could get one.
This certificate is a valuable asset to any boy. If he is going into the Army he is able to count a certain percentage of the marks obtained in the certificate examination towards the necessary total for admission to Sandhurst or Woolwich. Obviously, a boy who is not at a school possessing an officers training corps will be under a disability in that respect. But that is not the only or, indeed, the main point perhaps in regard to which certificate A itself is valuable. It is valuable to a boy who has it in other openings in life totally unconnected with the Army. I am assured on the very best grounds possible that many business firms regard the possession of this certificate as a great recommendation and give preference to a boy having one over a boy who has not. So there is a differentiation made by the Government against those who are not at a school where such a certificate is obtainable.
It happens in many cases, though not in all, that the schools where the certificate cannot now be obtained are schools where boys are educated who do not happen to be so generously blessed with this world's goods as other boys attending other schools. What is the reason for this differentiation and penalisation of one school against another? Of course, it may simply be ineptitude. If that were the case it would not be unduly surprising, because I think we have heard of cases of ineptitude on the part of a Socialist Government before, and this would not be a singular example. But when, last year, they were thinking of doing this, what regard had they to the principle of equality of opportunity about which members of the Socialist Party prate so loudly upon election platforms? Is that merely an election cry? Is it so thin a principle that the first puff of criticism from some other source is able to blow it away? If so, it has

807
proved a very ragged garment to cover the ugly nakedness of Socialism.
I gave Notice of this Question some time ago, but last night in answer to a Question in another place the Secretary of State gave some sort of indication of what we are to hear this afternoon from the noble Lord opposite. Apparently, somewhat late in the day the Secretary of State has recognised the disparity between platform pledges and administrative performance, and, in order to restore equality of opportunity, he resorts to the somewhat crude method of two wrongs making a right and withdraws the privilege of counting marks for certificate A from those who have passed through an officers training corps. This is a very thin pretence really because, as I say, the certificate itself has an intrinsic value. It is valuable not solely because it helps a boy to get into Sandhurst or Woolwich but because it is a recommendation to him for employment in civil life.
What the Government are proposing to do—namely, to withdraw the privilege of counting marks in the entrance examination—will undoubtedly belittle the value of the training given in the officers training corps. One rather wonders at that. Is the present action simply a dodge to get the Government out of a disagreeable hole which they have got themselves into by want of forethought, or has it a more sinister meaning? Is it a Machiavelian design upon the officers training corps? We know that there are enemies of the officers training corps and that they are the same as the enemies of the cadets. I read in the newspapers that deputations have recently been to the War Office from the Society for the Prevention of War, I think it is called, and from headmasters or those connected with officers training corps who, presumably, know their business and who urge, undoubtedly, the retention of those corps on educational and moral grounds.
From what we have seen in the newspapers and from what was said last night in another place, it would seem that there is in the air an attack on the officers training corps. One wonders whether this action in regard to the certificate is a further example of that attack. Last year the cadets were assassinated from behind an ambush. They were provided for in the Estimates and then they were
808
suddenly slaughtered at the very last moment without any warning. When the Secretary of State was called into question we were presented with a fait accompli. I hope that that will not happen again. If there is to be any attack on the officers training corps I hope that all who are interested therein will do everything they possibly can to resist it at once, and that everybody who wishes to see those corps retained will take every opportunity to raise their voices in protest against the attack upon them.
When they do so I hope they will not forget to read the remarks which were made by Mr. Shaw in another place last year. I think they are so interesting that I might perhaps read a short quotation from them. He said that—
"Officers training corps are really valuable organisations for providing a future supply of officers for the Army. So long as armies exist on a voluntary basis, there will have to be some form of recruiting."
That shows that, at any rate last year, whatever may happen this year, the Government recognised the value of the officers training corps. The matter is a very serious one for the officers training corps. The other day, at the United Services Institute I think it was, there was a lecture on the question of the provision of officers for the Army, and it was stated on authoritative grounds that there were no less than 200 officers short in the Army. I would ask your Lordships whether this is a moment to discourage in any way the training of officers for the Army when they are 200 below strength, if that is a correct figure. I hope when I ask this Question that I may appeal to the noble and gallant Lord and to his own distinguished career as an officer to assist these boys who wish to enter the Army or to enter any other branch of His Majesty's Service, and also to gain training and education in the officers training corps.
VISCOUNT ALLENBY: My Lords, I associate myself with every word the noble Earl has uttered. I think it may be of interest to your Lordships if I say a few words about the present state of the cadet movement. The history of the cadets is no doubt familiar. In 1859 the movement began, received official recognition, grew in power and in favour, and branched out into the Church Lads' Brigade, Boys' Brigade, Catholic Brigade,

809
Jewish Lads' Brigade, and, so on, touching every class of boyhood, school, club and institution and every phase of the education of the boys of the kingdom. In those days military authority regarded the cadets with benevolence and volunteer Commissions were issued to cadet officers. In 1907 the newly-formed Territorial Associations were empowered to raise cadet units, and Commissions were then issued by Lords-Lieutenant of counties. A small grant was made per company, and in 1910 affiliation to the Territorial Force was adopted. Then the cadet corps of the greater public schools were formed into special training corps for the production of officers, and after that; the main training of Territorial cadets was the business of the public secondary schools.
In 1914 the cadets had a strength of 40,000, and they flowed freely into the Army. In 1915 battalions were formed for the training of the younger boys to go more into the Army as they grew up. The strength of the forces had by 1921 risen to 120,000, but between 1922 and 1930 the movement suffered a series of setbacks and received what was intended to be its death blow on the 31st of October. Some of us representing cadets and cadet organisations had been warned of what was going to happen, and by the time the blow fell we had already taken steps to maintain alive the cadet movement. When the Government withdrew recognition control also ceased, and it stands to reason that without a controlling authority chaos must ensue and the movement must collapse. And this at a time when the physical training which the cadet force gives to the youth of the country is more Important than perhaps ever before.
I should like to call your Lordships' attention to a paragraph in The Times of January 26 last. It reads as follows:—
"Khilaroff, official spokesman of the Young Communist International, K.I.M., reported to the Congress of the Communist League of Youth on the K.I.M.'s activity abroad. The Congress decided to instruct the K.I.M. to force the pace among the youth of England and other countries."
So we formed a British National Cadet Association to take the place of the central council, bind together all cadet bodies throughout the land and provide a central authority, the Federal Council, charged with representing and supporting the cadet interest. We have been
810
in existence now for a little over three months, but we can already count on the adherence of practically all cadet units throughout the country, and of their counties. Nearly all the counties have established cadet associations affiliated to our Federal Council, and in close accord with us. These county committees are formed in each county. London, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee each constitute a county in themselves, apart from the main counties. Every committee, under its own president and chairman, is responsible for organisation, patronage, administration and maintenance of its units, and each unit decides on the nature and methods of the training to be pursued, subject only to the regulations of the Federal Council and to what is permissible by law. We are nothing if not law-abiding.
We have with us the Church Lads' Brigade, the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association, the Jewish Lads, the Catholic Cadets, and the Polytechnic Schools, besides others, and we confidently hope that we have, as friends of the cadets, saved them from the assault of their powerful enemies—enemies who, I am happy to say, are not almighty. At any rate the response received from all well-wishers throughout the land has proved that, despite the withdrawal of the Government recognition, we have still in the country, we hope, many powerful and good friends who recognise the benefits which accrue to the youth of the country from the cadet movement, who realise the value of the training, and who appreciate the fact that discipline and the lasting moral effect and enduring influence of combined training in early life, are essential if the youth of the country is to maintain that fibre and morale which have always characterised our British youth.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, no one in this House can appreciate more than I do the remarks that have been made by my fellow Field Marshal. I must take you back to 1907, when, at midnight, I received a huge packet from the Earl of Meath to say: "I have got to go to Ireland at a moment's notice, and you have to take this brief to the House of Lords to-morrow morning." I had to get up at four o'clock in the morning and go to a yeomanry inspection in Hertfordshire and I only got back by the skin

811
of my teeth in time to bring forward the proposal. It was really analogous to the one we have now before the House. Mr. Haldane, as he then was, the Secretary of State for War, had spoken most warmly on the subject, but he had then made a sudden volte face and there was a very important change for the youth of the country. What he said before was:—
"They wanted the youth of the nation to undergo training so that they would keep the reservoir always filled—namely, the national Army of 300,000. They wanted to work the cadet corps into a much more important position than they had been up to the present, and by so doing they would allay fear and give people a sense of security such as they had not hitherto had …. Could anyone look"—
now mark these words—
"upon a first-rate cadet corps without feeling that everyone in it was better and stronger morally and mentally? It helped him in life and in employment. It helped him to be a better citizen, not only for military but for civilian duties. From every point of view, the cadet corps were things to be encouraged in the interests of the nation."
Surely that is our feeling now.
It seems to me in reading that quotation very much like taking for my speech a text from the grave. In addition to that, we had help from Dr. Warre of Eton and many other headmasters, and I had also the support of Lord Roberts and Lord Lansdowne, who was then our Leader, and Lord Rosebery, speaking I think for almost the last time in this House, supported me most warmly. At that time, the Government Bench was rather more crowded than it is at present. The Government had a larger phalanx of supporters. What does the Secretary of State mean by this action? Does he mean economy? With a Government that is so lavish with the money of others, I should think not. Does he ever consult the Army Council? I know perfectly well the feelings of the Chief of Staff and I know perfectly well what the Adjutant-General thinks, because he will be at my Church Lads' Brigade dinner. I may say I succeeded Lord Chelmsford as head of the Church Lads' Brigade until I had to go to South Africa. I was succeeded by Lord Grenfell and the very first thing they did was to make it into a battalion, and that battalion did honour to any brigade it went to, and gained more than its share of Victoria Crosses. I shall be
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Chairman next May at the dinner of the Church Lads' Brigade and I know I shall have with me at that dinner the Adjutant-General.
We have heard talk about militarism. Well, what is militarism? What harm can it do? We are not a military nation and we never shall be a military nation. We are a warlike nation. We feel that we have the responsibility for the large dependencies of the Empire and that it is our duty to support the honour of our kingdom as it has been in the past. I only want to say further, in reference to the Church Lads' Brigade, that I had on my Committee the late Bishop of Salisbury and that Church and Army worked together thoroughly well with the feeling that no greater work could be done than to support your country and your God. That is the spirit that I want to see in this country all through. It has always been so and it is to be so. It was that spirit which, when I was a boy, induced me to go into the Army, and from 1864 until now in my old age I have held that spirit and shall until I cross the bar. What I am saying now is what I have said before, that it is for your Lordships—never mind what they say in another place or what mistake is made by the Secretary of State for War —to let the country know that your spirit is the spirit of the past, and that is the reason why I have spoken to-day.
LORD COTTESLOE: My Lords, I hope you will bear with me for a few moments if I follow the striking speech made by the Field Marshal who has just sat down and who speaks from a fund of experience and knowledge on this subject that I suppose no member of your Lordships' House can equal. The question which is under discussion seems to me to be one which raises issues a great deal wider than those contained in the words of the Question. What is the real meaning, what is the real justification of the action which has been taken in regard to the cadets?—action which undoubtedly has a bad effect upon recruiting at a time when both the regular Army and the Territorial Army are short of men and short of officers. Lord Methuen said with great truth that we are not a militarist nation. We are, I think, as he said, a martial nation, but we are martial only in the sense that we desire to defend our

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own country and our own Empire; aggression is very far indeed from our thoughts.
There is something mysterious about the whole of this action and I do not think the country has ever been told upon what grounds it has been taken. Are we to take it as a hypothesis that training to arms in a very rudimentary form induces a desire for war and makes people inclined to be brutal and bloodthirsty? I would venture to say that the lower class of cinema may have such an effect, but that no training afforded by a cadet corps or an officers training corps makes the slightest contribution towards that end. But if it be the hypothesis that cadet training militarises people and makes them aggressive, it would be a good thing, I think, if your Lordships had the evidence on which that opinion rests. It is true, of course, that some countries have militarist traditions. There are countries where the old hereditary habit of every man being against his neighbour and every tribe being antagonistic to the next, where the feeling that it is a man's business to fight, primarily if not solely, still prevails. But we have got a long way from that in these countries of the West of Europe. Let us take, as an object lesson, Switzerland. Switzerland is a country where military training is universal. Training of the citizens is limited only by what the Government can afford. The training begins when the boys are taught to shoot with the cross-bow even before they are allowed to handle a rifle. The training of citizens is universal and has been so for hundreds of years, and yet Switzerland has never been aggressive. If military training made people aggressive and inclined to encroach on their neighbours, surely Switzerland would have been the cockpit of Europe before now, instead of the Low Countries.
In this country the professional soldier has been nurtured and trained to arms and to all that war implies ever since he was a boy, and if the hypothesis that I have suggested is to be taken as a true one, what are we to expect of our Generals and our General Staff? Surely, they must be fire-eaters of the most terrible description, and we can picture to ourselves the Secretary of State, as, I suppose, a pacifist, like Daniel in the den of lions, with no protection from the fire-eaters except that which he might
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get from the Civil Service. I venture to think that we all know the humanity and tenderness of the officers and men of the British Army, which have always been notable both in war and in peace, and that there is no brutalising tendency at all in such training as is given for military purposes in this country, least of all the training in a rudimentary form, and even with dummy weapons, such as the cadets are allowed to have. Accordingly I think that it would enlighten not only your Lordships' House but the country if we might be told what is the justification for this idea—if it indeed is this idea, and not a mere idea of economy—which has produced the action that has been taken by the Government.
There is additional interest in knowing more about it because we do not know how far it is proposed to extend this principle. If such training, if playing with dummy weapons, is demoralising to boys and children, surely we ought to stop the importation of lead soldiers and toy guns. It is not clear that the officers training corps will not be interfered with; and yet we know that at this particular moment those corps are most valuable to that expansion of the Regular Army which it is most necessary to provide so long as we have an Army which may, in a distant but not impossible emergency, be called upon to fight. If this principle is to be extended, if there is to be an attack first upon the junior officers training corps and then upon the senior, I think it is desirable that the country should know what is in front of it. We are all, I hope capable of being convinced by good argument based upon good reasons, but it appears to me that so far no case has been made out for the action that has been taken, while the mysterious way in which it has been taken can only be a cause of anxiety to those who are interested in the officers training corps as well as in the cadet corps.
LORD TREOWEN: My Lords, I think that no more words are needed to convey the general feeling which, I realise, runs throughout the House at the present moment, but I should be sorry if, owing to the sparse occupation of these Benches, no further voice were raised from among those who habitually occupy them to express the feeling which I hold most strongly, and which is shared, I

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think, by many of those who act with me on these Benches and equally feel the desirability of expressing in the strongest possible terms our condemnation of the action of the Socialist Secretary of State for War in this matter of the cadets and —for it appears that the same policy is to be continued—the officers training corps. I have had some experience, though I hesitate to put it forward after the distinguished officers who have already spoken, both in this country and in a great Dominion in the raising, training and organisation of cadet corps, and I can only say that I have seen the most admirable results arising from the organisation of these corps, and I have realised the value that has been placed upon them in the great Dominion in which I served for ninny years.
To speak of this as militarism is absurd. Is it militarism to know how to behave like gentlemen? That is the first thing that we try to teach cadets. It seems an extraordinary idea that, because boys have been put into uniform, they must be spoken of as soldiers and have attached to them that stigma which I thought had long ago been wiped out in this country. As I listened to this debate my thoughts went to the Secretary of State for War himself. It so happened that in the latter part of the War, when we had after an unconscionably long period of hesitation adopted a system of National Service, he and I were serving the nation in the same capacity in different parts of this country. I often had to meet him in connection with the work of raising recruits under the National Service scheme. I wonder if he ever found in his district what I know was the case in mine—namely, that with all the cadet corps the difficulty had been to prevent the boys from going before they had reached the proper age. In many cases when they should have reached military age and we looked for them, they had already died at the front. Those are facts that I know, and they show that the training was a training which brought out, as my noble friend Lord Methuen has said, the finest ideals of citizenship, those of sacrifice for King and country.
I can only say that, from my experience as a soldier, it is the finest training that can be given to boys, because from the very beginning a certain amount of self-sacrifice is involved. There may be other
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amusements which are more attractive to boys than going through their regular duty as cadets, but they do it willingly, and there grows up amongst them a comradeship which is most valuable to them in civil life, and a feeling of mutual assistance which is of the greatest value to the country. I sincerely hope that the efforts of the noble Earl who raised the Question may have some influence on the authorities.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, I will try to deal with this question from the point of view of giving the maximum possible information to the House. May I say at the beginning that I am quite sure that I interpret the opinion of the House when I say how very glad we are to have the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Methuen, amongst us again. He is remembered throughout the Army with much affection by all those who have known him in the past. The Question on the Paper deals specifically with the cadets, and I am quite certain that the noble Earl who put this Question will not expect me to follow him in his interpretation of the action of my right hon. friend the Secretary of State in connection with the cadets. It was, if I may say so, not an accurate picture of the attitude of my right hon. friend, as, of course, the noble Earl knows. Surely the whole question at that time was the question solely of the military value of the cadets, not of their value as a national asset, and the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Allenby, who told us a number of exceedingly interesting facts about the present organisation of these cadets, knows that members of the Government have done their best to assist him in adding to the amenities of the boys in their annual camps, and other matters. We who have had anything to do with the training of youth in the country know that these cadets corps and similar organisations, such as the Boy Scouts, are of great value, and we wish them all success.
The question we are dealing with today is another question—namely, the question of certificate A. It may be convenient to your Lordships if in the first place I read the announcement made yesterday by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War, in reply to a Question on this subject in another place. The reply runs as follows:—

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"At the only examination held since the withdrawal of recognition from cadet corps on 31st October last no candidate from schools having had such corps has, so far as I am aware, been excluded from these colleges because of the fact that he had not certificate A. As regards future examinations for these two colleges, all present holders of the certificate and those who are already on the way to obtaining one and do so by 31st March next, will retain for competitive purposes the privileges of the additional marks which certificate A has up to now given. But apart from present holders and those who obtain the certificate by 31st March next, the privilege of counting extra marks in respect of certificate A will be withdrawn."
He then goes on to deal with the question of candidates who will not have certificate A, and he points out that full particulars will be published in the Press and communicated to the schools concerned as soon as possible. I am dealing, of course, with the cadets.
EARL PEEL: Not the officers training corps?
LORD MARLEY: I am dealing with the cadets. With regard to the policy of the officers training corps, I do not propose to deal with that, to-day, except to say that the question of policy with regard to the officers training corps must be dealt with by my right hon. friend in another place in his Estimates announcement, and therefore I cannot trespass on the announcement which he will have to make in that connection. For that reason I must confine my remarks to the cadets. However, I do think that in preparation for the expression of feelings which noble Lords may have in connection with any future policy, or with the position at present, noble Lords may like to have some accurate information as to what certificate A is. I have got here a copy of certificate A, which certifies that officers of certain contingents have fulfilled the necessary conditions as to efficient service, and have qualified in the syllabus examination as laid down in various Regulations. Certificate A is given on passing a written and a practical test in certain military subjects, and can be obtained by members of the officers training corps who are sixteen years of age and have two years' efficient service in that corps.
In the past it could be obtained by members of recognised cadet corps with similar qualifications, but since the with-
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drawal of recognition from the cadet units members of these units can no longer obtain certificate A. The point of the Question is the injustice which is alleged to arise by reason of the fact that holders of certificate A will no longer be able to get the marks they used to obtain in the entrance examinations for Woolwich and Sandhurst. It will, I am sure, be information to many of your Lordships that holders of certificate A are credited with certain additional marks under the regulations for admission to Woolwich and Sandhurst. Your Lordships may be interested to know that the precise amount of the addition is 25 per cent. of the marks obtained in the certificate A examination. This means in practice a credit of a maximum of 100 marks, as against the total of 1,700 for Woolwich and 1,400 for Sandhurst, the general range of marks credited being from 40 to 65 or 70. It is true that the withdrawal of official recognition from the cadet units has technically withdrawn an advantage from the schools which had cadet corps, in that boys who go up for the Woolwich and Sandhurst examinations will not in future be able to obtain the credit of marks in respect of certificate A.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Not technically, but actually.
LORD MARLEY: I agree, but I think it is possible, if I may say so, to exaggerate the importance of this injustice. We find that out of some 18,000 members of school cadet units, which prior to October last were in receipt of grants, approximately 170 in 1929 and 220 in 1930 gained certificate A. That, to begin with, is a very small proportion, but when we go further and enquire how many of these boys are interested in the Army entrance examination the results are even more surprising. The number of candidates for Woolwich and Sandhurst in 1929 was 566 altogether, and in 1930, 534. So far as we have been able to ascertain, and we have had a very, very careful examination of the records, only three of these candidates in 1929, and only one in 1930, were boys from cadet schools holding certificate A. In other words, this injustice is limited to the equivalent of one boy this year and three boys last year; and, in point of fact, I think I am right in saying that of course these particular boys were not

819
affected in any way by this alleged injustice. It is not as large a matter in any case as has been suggested by the speakers to-day. In 1929, I may say, five other candidates not holding certificate A came from the cadet schools, while in 1930 there were no other candidates from the cadet schools.
I do not think, therefore, we can say that this problem of inequality is one which has been seriously accentuated by the withdrawal of recognition from the cadet schools. But, in so far as there is an inequality, that inequality is removed by the announcement made by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War yesterday, when he pointed out that in future, with safeguards for those individuals concerned, marks for certificate A would not be given at these examinations. That, I may say in passing, removes an even greater inequality, to which no reference has been made. The noble Earl who put this Question said that most secondary schools have either an officers training corps or a cadet corps. I am informed that there are over 1,100 secondary schools, of whom only 174 have officers training corps and only 177 have cadet corps. The injustice surely was to the other 700 or 800 schools, who never were able to obtain these marks at the entrance examinations, which were confined in the past to the boys from the 300 or 400 officers training corps schools, which did in fact provide a serious proportion of those who went up to the examinations, and cadet corps schools supplying the one boy last year and the three boys the year before who went up from the cadet corps schools. These were the boys who had the advantage, while the 700 or 800 other schools were deprived of that advantage, because by no means could they obtain any marks towards the aggregate marks necessary for passing the entrance examination.
The only other point I want to make is the question of the value of certificate A in civil life. We are told that firms give special facilities to those who hold this certificate. It is exceedingly difficult to consider that as a serious proposition, when we realise that of 18,000 of these cadets only 170 last year and 220 this year obtained the certificate. That is an exceedingly small proportion, and therefore I would submit that in point of fact it is not a serious matter. And,
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in any case, certificate A is a military certificate. It is not a certificate of efficiency in civil life, it is a military certificate, and, as such, we do not feel that the War Office is seriously concerned with its effect in civil life.
I have tried to put the position clearly as regards the Question on the Paper, which says that there is an injustice inflicted upon boys educated at schools where there is no officers training corps by the withdrawal of the privilege of gaining an A certificate through school cadet corps. I have tried to point out that the injustice has been very greatly exaggerated, limited as it has been to such a very few boys. Such as it is, however, it will in any case disappear as between one school and another since no marks will in future be allocated for certificate A; and the injustice which was done to 700 or 800 schools up to the present time will be removed when no further marks are granted for certificate A. I have no Papers I can lay. I could lay a copy of certificate A, but I have no other Papers to lay, because the information I have given is the fullest at my disposal, and I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl will withdraw his Motion and accept the explanation.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I must say I am glad that I raised this subject this afternoon, for two reasons. The first is the effect which it has had in drawing speeches, especially from the two noble and gallant Lords who sit upon the Cross Benches—Lord Allenby, who described to us the efforts which his organisation had made towards remedying the injustices done by the Government to the cadet corps, and Lord Methuen, that veteran of His Majesty's service and the service of your Lordships' House, who, in the interesting speech and the reminiscences he gave us of the foundation of these corps, called that distinguished member of the Government Bench, the late Lord Haldane, to witness in his favour. Then we heard an interesting speech from the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, from the point of view of the Territorial Army, and one from the noble Lord, Lord Treowen, from the Liberal Benches. I think we must congratulate ourselves on this side of the House, and those noble Lords above the gangway also I hope, on the whole-hearted condemnation which

821
the action of the Government has succeeded in obtaining from all of your Lordships.
I turn to the reply of the noble Lord who answered for the Government. The noble Lord did not deny in any way the injustice which his Government had inflicted upon certain people, but he sought to excuse himself in the way that the lady described the baby as only a little one. He did not deny the injustice, but said it was only a small one. It seems to me that it is very undesirable to inflict injustice at all, even a small injustice, and it is not a sign of good government or good administration that injustices should be inflicted. Now we come to the question of the reply read in the House of Commons. The noble Lord said that nobody had been excluded from Sandhurst or Woolwich because of not passing the examination for certificate A. Well, but they cannot be excluded. They are only allowed to add marks. The noble Lord opposite said that an average of 40 to 65 marks was, in his opinion, a negligible amount. All I can say is that many of their Lordships have sat for and have passed examinations, and if they could have gone in with 40 to 65 marks in hand they would have been exceedingly pleased. That, perhaps, would not be necessary for noble Lords opposite.
Turning to the next point, the noble Lord says that an injustice is inflicted upon schools which have neither an officers training corps nor a cadet corps. They can always have a cadet corps. They could have one now if they wanted it. There may be a difficulty in obtaining an officers training corps, but there is no bar to a school obtaining a cadet corps. Injustice is inflicted on the cadet corps as a whole. There is no injustice inflicted upon schools which can have one and do not choose to organise one. Then the noble Lord says that the injustice, which he admits, is to be withdrawn by withdrawing the privilege in future from boys who have obtained certificate A in officers training corps. As I said before, when I foreshadowed what would be said to-night from the answer made in another place, two wrongs do not make a right. Because you are going to withdraw this privilege from boys who are educated in a school with an officers training corps you do
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not do away with the injustice you have done to the boys who are educated in a school which has a cadet corps.
The noble Lord also said that he would not follow me into the interpretations which I appeared to place upon the Government's possible future action as regards officers training corps. Of course, I did not expect him to do that, but I was very much encouraged when he said that my possible interpretation was an inaccurate one. Therefore we may hope and trust that no further attack is contemplated upon the officers training corps. He qualified the statement a little later by saying that he really could not say anything very definite until announcements were made upon the Estimates. I hope that as my interpretation is incorrect it will remain incorrect.
I do not think I have anything further to say except about the general value of the certificate. My information is to the effect that the general value of the certificate is regarded as high in civil life. The noble Lord says that it is not the business of the War Office to provide certificates for boys in civil life. That may be the case; but, by withdrawing the certificate and doing away with that advantage, the noble Lord has put a great deal of disability upon people who have never done anything at all to deserve it, and I think that his Government have acted in a most ill-judged, hasty and unjust manner. The noble Lord said that there were no Papers to lay. He also said that he was going to publish something in the newspapers. I do not know why he cannot lay that.
LORD MARLEY: I do not think I said that I was going to publish anything in the newspapers.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: That is what we understood—that he was going to publish the whole of the particulars in regard to the new regulations for certificate A in the newspapers. I should have thought that was a Paper to lay.
LORD MARLEY: I beg the noble Earl's pardon. What I did was to quote from the reply made in another place by my right hon. friend, who said that full particulars, that is to say the details, regarding the alteration of the examination for the schools concerned will be published in the Press and communicated to the schools concerned as soon as pos-

823
sible. That is a purely technical publication in connection with the regulations for the examination.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I suggest that that should be laid.
LORD MARLEY: I have no objection to that.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, is it really necessary that regulations about examinations should be printed and published at the expense of your Lordships' House and thus reach the parties concerned? Is it not much more desirable, much more expeditious and pro tanto less wasteful of public money that the publication should be made in another manner?
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, it is, of course, a pure waste of public money. It is only a regulation for the examination, and I do not think there is very much to be gained by having Papers containing the mere technical details of an examination laid in your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Having regard to what my noble friend Lord Crawford said and because of what he said about expense—one does not, of course, wish to put any unnecessary expense upon the taxpayer, especially at the present time—but simply and solely on that ground I beg leave to withdraw the Motion for Papers.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BRITISH MUSEUM AND NATIONAL GALLERY (OVERSEAS LOANS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power to lend objects belonging to British Museum and National Gallery for exhibition overseas.
1.—(1) The Trustees of the British Museum and the Trustees and the Director of the National Gallery shall, in their dis-
824
cretion and subject to such regulations as they may respectively prescribe, have power at any time to lend for public exhibition in places outside Great Britain on such terms as they think fit any objects which are vested in the Trustees of the British Museum and the Trustees and Director of the National Gallery respectively:
Provided that no object which has become vested as aforesaid by virtue of any gift or bequest shall, except with the consent of the donor or of his personal representatives or of the personal representatives of the testator, become subject to the powers of this Act if—

(a) the lending of the object for exhibition in places outside Great Britain would be inconsistent with any condition attached to the gift or bequest; or

(b) fifteen years have not elapsed since the date on which the object became vested as aforesaid.

(2) The powers of the Trustees and the Directors of the National Gallery under subsection (1) of this section may, as respects any objects vested in them and forming part of the collection of the National Gallery at Millbank known as the Tate Gallery, be delegated by them, with or without any restrictions or conditions as they think fit, to the persons who are for the time the Trustees and the Director of the Tate Gallery.
LORD HANWORTH LORD HANWORTH moved, in subsection (1), after "objects," to insert "being objects representative of British arts or crafts." The noble Lord said: I do not intend to trouble your Lordships with anything like a speech in moving this Amendment; but it might be useful to noble Lords who were unable to be present on either of the two occasions when this matter has been before the House if I ventured to remind them that the purpose of the words I propose to insert in this clause is to restrict the powers conferred upon the Trustees of the museums and galleries concerned. They are not framed for the purpose of preventing what is called reciprocity. We are anxious that it should be possible, within reasonable limits, to return the hospitable action adopted by Belgium, Holland and Italy in sending their pictures over here. But it will be remembered that, broadly speaking though not altogether, the pictures they sent were from the national schools of painting of those countries respectively. As the Bill is drawn it allows and permits the Trustees not merely of the National Gallery but of the British Museum to send overseas any of the treasures under their guardianship. That is a very wide power. There are many treasures in the

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British Museum which, in the opinion of the Trustees, ought not in any circumstances to be allowed to leave these shores.
On the other hand, if the Bill was left as it stands, the responsibility for refusing to allow a particular object to go to a foreign country or to the Dominions would lie entirely upon the Trustees. That this is so was made clear by the noble Viscount, Lord Grey, a week ago. Standing at the Table in your Lordships' House he said that in his view if a request were made by a foreign Ambassador or Minister to our own Foreign Secretary it would not be the duty of the Foreign Secretary to act upon his own judgment; he thought it would be the duty of the Foreign Secretary in any event to pass that request on to the Trustees of the gallery or museum concerned, with the result that the onus, it might be the odium, of refusing the request would lie upon the Trustees. The Trustees at the present time are not people to exercise a discretion. They have to keep their treasures in their own custody, and they cannot consider the question as to whether or not it would be wise or prudent, or whether under some political pressure they ought to be able to send away some of these objects to foreign countries.
A long time back, as I have told your Lordships, the Trustees considered this matter, and came to the conclusion that it was necessary to add the words, which are the words of my Amendment, to the Bill. The matter has been considered not merely by the Standing Committee of the Trustees, of which I have the honour to be one and on whose behalf I am acting, but also, not once but more than once, by the general body of Trustees, which, perhaps rather curiously, includes the Lord Chancellor and all the members of His Majesty's Government who are responsible, of course, collectively under Cabinet responsibility for proposing the Bill in the terms in which it stands. I need not add more. It is for these reasons I ask your Lordships to insert these words in the Bill, and, if I gather aright from the words used by the Lord President on the last occasion, there will no longer be any opposition from the Government Bench to the insertion of the provision. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, afer ("objects") insert ("being objects representative of British arts or crafts").—(Lord Hanworth.)
VISCOUNT MERSEY: With your Lordships' leave, I should like to move the Amendment standing in my name at this point—that is to say after the noble Lord's Amendment. I have given private notice of this to the Lord Chairman.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: My noble friend was good enough, as he has told your Lordships, to inform me that he desired to move his Amendment at this early stage. I explained the matter and he agreed it would be better to dispose of Lord Hanworth's Amendment first. Immediately that is done I will call on Lord Mersey to move his Amendment.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD AMULREE): I regret the absence through sickness of my noble friend, the Leader of the House, who has this Bill in his charge. The Government have given careful consideration to the Amendment, and also to the views expressed in the course of the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill. May I remind your Lordships that the Bill in its present form seeks to confer on the Trustees of the British Museum and the National Gallery, subject to such regulations as they may themselves prescribe, a discretion to lend or refuse to lend any object of art in their collection for public exhibition in places outside Great Britain. Similar powers are already possessed by the Victoria and Albert Museum, the National Portrait Gallery and the National Galleries in Scotland.
The Bill is permissive and not mandatory, but it is also subject to certain provisos which restrict the exercise of the discretion of the Trustees when they consider any proposition put before them for lending any object of art. These provisos deal with the question of any object which has become vested in the Trustees by virtue of any gift or bequest, in which case such object cannot be lent abroad without the consent of the donor or his representatives, and in the ease of bequests, of the representatives of the testator. There is a further provision that that must not be inconsistent with any condition attached to the gift or bequest and that the object in question has not been for fifteen years in the

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possession of the Trustees. It seemed to be assumed by your Lordships in the course of the debate on the Second Reading that the Trustees would not have the courage to refuse to lend in cases where, in their judgment, they ought not to lend. We do not take that view of the Trustees in the performance of their public duties. We are satisfied that the Trustees would, in every case, act upon their own unfettered judgment, and would not be diverted from their duty by any outside influence, however powerful.
I learn that there is in contemplation an exhibition of French art to be held in London, and, if this exhibition materialises, the bulk of the exhibits will come from France. Already those concerned in the exhibition are scouring countries outside France with the object of obtaining specimens of French art for the exhibition in London. It seems to me it is an undignified position to take up, almost amounting to a lack of international courtesy, that while we invite for a public exhibition objects of art of a particular country, whether from that country or elsewhere, we refuse to reciprocate in lending other than objects of British art to a similar exhibition abroad. I need not repeat the arguments which were adduced when the matter was before the House on the last two occasions. While, after careful consideration, we have not altered our view that the Bill, which embodies the recommendations of the Royal Commission, should be accepted, yet, bearing in mind what my noble friend said on the last occasion when the Bill was before the House, we do not feel that we should resist this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT MERSEY VISCOUNT MERSEY moved, in subsection (1), to insert after "objects," "and produced subsequent to the year 1600." The noble Viscount said: I should like to add to the words which Your Lordships have adapted the words "and produced subsequent to the year 1600." I do not wish to waste your Lordships' time. I believe a very large majority of your Lordships in the House this evening are in favour of this very moderate Amendment, but perhaps it would be better, in order that it may be on record, that I should just put the points again, as some of your Lordships
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who are here to-night were not here on the last occasion. We know that the Trustees were never in favour of this Bill at all. I believe there was a very close division among the Trustees of the two bodies as to whether they should accept it; but they have to admit a certain degree of reciprocity, and their suggestion is that the best examples of British art should be lent abroad—that is to say, the seventeenth, eighteenth and early nineteenth century canvases. The noble Earl, Lord Crawford, whose expert knowledge and very great weight are admitted, I imagine, by everybody, laid particular stress upon the danger to panel pictures. That is one class of thing I wish to protect—the old panel pictures. He mentioned the danger of some of the old galleries; and the noble Viscount, Lord Lee of Fareham, mentioned the danger of the new galleries abroad, through damp. The most rev. Primate, and in fact everyone who spoke, referred to these dangers. I will not develop that point.
The objects I wish to protect are the very early English things which have not only an artistic but also an historical value. Perhaps the Trustees sometimes give that quality a second place, but to many of us it has a first place. Many of your Lordships in your own houses possess objects on the walls or on the shelves which are perhaps not of very great artistic or intrinsic value, but which to your Lordships, for family reasons or reasons of sentiment, have a very real value indeed. In England there are many such things which we do not wish to go abroad. I will take two instances only: they are neither of them things that can go abroad. Take the Coronation Stone in Westminster Abbey. That, I suppose, is of no intrinsic value at all, but it would be a very great trouble to many people if it were sunk in a ship. Luckily it is in the custody of a cleric who, I understand, is an absolute autocrat and takes orders from no one. The other instance is Domesday Book. The custodian of Domesday Book is the Master of the Rolls. I do not know if he is an autocrat in this particular instance, but I believe that he is precluded from lending it. That is an object which I am sure it would be a terrible risk to send abroad. There

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are the early panel pictures of the Kings of England, of no very great artistic value but of great interest; there are a few plays of Shakespeare, the very earliest productions of Caxton's press and the stained glass windows at Fair-ford church. It is a few things of that sort that I am thinking of.
I did propose to the most rev. Primate and to the noble Earl in the first instance a schedule, but they said the difficulties of framing a schedule were very great indeed and I expect that they know a great deal better than I do. My point is—and I hope your Lordships will sympathise with it—why should the British things be sacrificed in order to save the foreign things? Save both if you can. I have got a sheaf of letters in my pocket sent to me by noble Lords who could not come to the House to-day. Some of them are against the whole Bill. They do not want to lend any of these things. This Amendment takes a more moderate course. It only asks that these early English things—documents, panel pictures, ivory carvings, the sort of things which are absolutely unique, quite irreplaceable and bound up with the oldest and most intimate history of this country (not so much of the British Empire as of England) that these things should not be subject to the very great risk to which they would undoubtedly be subject if they were to travel through different temperatures overseas, to go to galleries where people, though they may care for them, know very little about their custody.
I had collected some extracts from the speeches of the noble Earl and the most rev. Primate and the noble Viscount, Lord Grey, but I do not think it is necessary now that I should quote them. They are nearly all in support of what I am saying to your Lordships now. The Trustees have made a gesture in agreeing to send abroad the seventeenth and eighteenth-century canvases, which means those of Romney, Reynolds and Gainsborough. This Amendment does not traverse that at all. I personally am quite willing that those things should go. All I want is to save our early English objects, which probably might not be asked for by foreign countries but would certainly be asked for by the Colonies and Dominions. It would sometimes be a very difficult request to refuse, and these loans, as your Lordships know when
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you lend your own things, though they are supposed to be temporary loans, have a very great tendency to become permanent. Then you would break up the entity of a single collection in the British Museum or the National Gallery, and when somebody has travelled half across the world to see something, he would be told: —"Oh, it is on loan to Australia," or "It has been sent to the Sandwich Islands—it is a Captain Cook's relic, and you cannot see it." Of course, the Amendment does not protect everything which it ought to protect. It is difficult to find a form of words that would do everything.
The only other point is one which I made on Second Reading—that I am sure it is the wish of your Lordships that people should come to this country to see these things. Travel is very cheap and we want people to come here. Let them come and look at these marvellous collections in Trafalgar Square or Bloomsbury. People do not hesitate to lend to London: naturally, it is the best advertisement in the world to lend to London. I have a fairly complete knowledge of foreign galleries—not so complete, of course, as that of the noble Earl and the noble Viscount—and it would be a joke to lend to some places. Here things are safe: it is quite different when you send things abroad. There is a great volume of public opinion—opinion not only in this House but all over the country—on this subject. I dare say many of your Lordships read The Times newspaper, and you may perhaps have noticed a leading article this morning in support of this Amendment. I do not think there is anything more I need say, and I beg to move the Amendment of which I have given the Lord Chairman notice.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, at end insert ("and produced subsequently to the year 1600").— (Viscount Mersey.)
VISCOUNT LEE OF FAREHAM: should like to support the Amendment moved by the noble Viscount, and I will give my reasons in a very few words. Your Lordships have now accepted the principle that authority to lend shall only extend to works of British origin. That is satisfactory, but I think the noble Viscount has made a reasonable case for exempting works prior to

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the date 1600. There is no special virtue in that date, but works which are much earlier are either so extremely rare that they ought not to be lent at all, or they are exceedingly fragile. I will only refer to two categories. It is well known to your Lordships that this country was celebrated in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries for its production of alabaster figures. Those figures had great reputation not only in this country but all over Europe. They are exceedingly fragile. It is very rare indeed to see one that is not broken. They are obviously of a material and of a kind that would be almost bound to suffer if sent unnecessarily on travels. That is one class of object. Then there are the exceedingly rare English paintings on panels of the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. Those also are extremely delicate.
I may perhaps be permitted to say that I have in my own possession one of the late fourteenth century which is so delicate that it was not considered safe—and the authorities of the Victoria and Albert Museum entirely concurred—even to send it from my own house to the exhibition of English mediaeval art which was held recently. These objects are not numerous and I do not for a moment believe that they would be greatly desired for exhibition abroad, but I think the Amendment would relieve the Trustees of the undesirable responsibility of refusing demands for the loan of these objects, if unfortunately such demands were made, and, after all, what is wanted abroad, and what we are willing and anxious to display abroad, is English painting subsequently to the year 1600, and particularly eighteenth century pictures. There are certainly some English painters of the seventeenth century, such as William Dobson and Mary Beale, whose works could very well be sent and which would help to round out the exhibits of English painting. For these reasons I hope that your Lordships will be willing to look with favour upon the noble Viscount's Amendment, and in any case I wished to say these few words in support of it.
EARL PEEL: I desire in a very few words to support the noble Viscount's Amendment. I think it is a very modest
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and moderate Amendment. I should have preferred the 1700 limit to the 1600 limit. There is no doubt that a great many people are reluctant to lend these objects if the loan involves great risks. I quite understand the attitude of the Trustees of the British Museum, who feel that there should be some reciprocity, but I really think the Government might willingly agree to this limitation. We want to assist the Trustees as far as possible, and it is much easier for them if they can say that they are not permitted to lend these particular objects. After all, we are at the centre of the Empire, and in these days of easy travel it is perfectly right that anybody who wants to see these objects should come here. I would urge the Government and your Lordships to allow these more ancient relies, if I may so call them, to rest in their shrines, secure from all dangers and vicissitudes of air, sea and land travel. I hope that the Government will accept this Amendment.
LORD AMULREE: I do not know that there is very much difference between the desire of the noble Viscount, as expressed in his Amendment, and the actual provisions of the Bill. The Bill gives power to the Trustees to prescribe regulations, and those regulations may, if the Trustees think fit, limit such objects as they may lend to articles subsequent to 1600 or to any other date. If, therefore, the Trustees should wish to draw the line at some particular date, they are at liberty to do so. The whole purport of the Bill is to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission which was set up for this purpose by the late Government. That Commission reported substantially in the terms of the Bill now before your Lordships, and the view that they took was that regulations should be made from time to time. The making of regulations from time to time makes the power of the Trustees more elastic and escapes the rigidity that would otherwise be imposed upon them by Statute.
This is what the Royal Commission reported on page 34 of the Report:—
"We do not think the Act itself should attempt to define the class of objects which should be excluded from the purview of the Act, e.g., fragile objects, panel pictures, unique or type specimens, as we think that such definition can be accomplished better by

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regulations promulgated and, if need be, modified time to time by the governing authorities."
The view that we take of the matter is that the object of this Amendment would be more effectively accomplished by regulations prescribed "and, if need be, modified from time to time' by the Trustees. In those circumstances I hope that the noble Viscount will not press his Amendment, since the Trustees have ample power to deal with this matter.
LORD HANWORTH: I am afraid I cannot agree with the interpretation of the Bill that has been given by the noble Lord in charge of it. If that is the right interpretation, he mast put in a good many more words to make it plain. Your Lordships will observe that under Clause 1 the effective words are that the Trustees shall—
"have power at any time to lend for public exhibition …. on such terms as they think fit any objects which are vested in the Trustees."
Those are the operative words. It is quite true that this is subject to such regulations as they may prescribe, but I do not hesitate to say that as those words stand everybody who reads them, all lawyers who read them, would say that they mean that the Trustees have the power to lend any object at all that is vested in them. It is quite true that they can make regulations to say that the objects are to be lent only for a certain time, or to be hung in a certain place, or that they are not to be moved from one place to another, or that the transit is to be effected as far as possible by land and not by sea; but those are the minor points that, can be dealt with by regulation.
I do not think that it would be possible for the Trustees to make a regulation limiting the power that is imposed upon them of lending any objects that are vested in them, or to curtail that power by saying that they will lend only objects which are not earlier than a certain date arbitrarily fixed. If that is what Lord Amulree thinks the Bill does, he must alter the terms of it very drastically. As the matter stands I am quite certain—no, I beg the noble Lord's pardon; I ought not to say that to another lawyer —but at any rate I venture to offer a different opinion from that which has
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been expressed by the noble and learned Lord who has given the House the benefit of his reading of the clause.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMULREE LORD AMULREE moved, in subsection (1), immediately before the proviso, to insert:—
"or to lend any such objects (being pictures) for display in the official house of a British Ambassador or Minister in a foreign country, or in the official house in any part of His Majesty's Dominions outside Great Britain of a representative of His Majesty or of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom."
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Parmoor, I beg to move the Amendment that stands in his name. The object of the Amendment is to enable the Trustees to lend, not objects of art generally, but only pictures, to the Embassies abroad, and also to Governors and so on. Galleries have more pictures than they can exhibit at one time, and among these may be some suitable for the purpose. The Trustees will, of course, have complete discretion to permit or refuse to permit the pictures to go, and to attach any conditions as to the length of time of the loan and such matters. The Amendment is desired by the Departments concerned, the Office of Works, the Foreign Office and the Dominions Office. I submit that this Amendment would be a very friendly and useful act, and that it would be an improvement of the Bill if some such provision were inserted. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 14, after ("respectively") insert the said wordy.—(Lord Amulree.)
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Prima facie the Amendment appears to be attractive, but I think that it deserves rather closer consideration than the noble Lord has given to it. He was good enough to say that the Trustees would retain complete discretion whether to lend or not to lend pictures to British Embassies, Legations and other official houses abroad. I think one must contrast his view about this Amendment, with the statement which he made about the first Amendment on the Paper, where he adopted a very much more censorious attitude towards the Trustees, expressing surprise that they should not have the courage to refuse. Now, when he wishes to extend the power under the Bill, he says that the Trustees have complete dis-

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cretion, asking us therefore to accept the Amendment on the ground that we can refuse, although he scolded us on the first Amendment because he thought we would refuse to lend.
Your Lordships must remember that these official houses of Ambassadors and Ministers abroad are private residences. They are away from this country, and the pictures would be outside all technical supervision and control. If a picture is sent to a foreign country on a temporary loan we assume that the technical people in that country are doing their best to see that the picture is safeguarded. Nothing of the sort can apply to a British Embassy or Ministry, or to what is called the official house in one of the Dominions of the representative of His Majesty. Therefore these pictures would be away from proper supervision and control. They will be in private houses, subject to the ordinary risk of fire. Our national collections in the British Museum, the Albert and Victoria Museum, the National Gallery, Hertford House, and so forth, are all in isolated buildings, and humanly speaking as safe from fire as any buildings in Great Britain. All this safeguarding goes.
Is the noble and learned Lord quite sure that this Amendment in itself is desirable? He says that the Departments concerned, the Foreign Office, the Dominions Office and Office of Works, are anxious for it. It is very obliging of these Departments to take so fatherly an interest in the British Museum, but does Lord Amulree think that first-class pictures are going to be sent to Vienna or Paris or Washington? In my opinion, unless really first-class pictures are sent to the residences of the representatives of His Majesty abroad it would be better to send none at all. To send second-or third-rate examples of British pictures to the Embassies would be a mistake, and before the Report stage I hope the noble and learned Lord will consult those who are in a position to advise him, to see whether this Amendment should not be reconsidered.
I know that in taking this view I lay myself open to the charges made in his first speech by Lord Amulree of "undignified attitude," "lack of international courtesy," and so forth. We have been charged with all sorts of things for taking the view put forward by
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my noble friend Lord Lee of Fareham and the Master of the Rolls. For my part I am prepared to stand the risk of those charges, because I know, as I said on the Second Reading—I do not think Lord Amulree was then present—that it is a view which is supported by responsible custodians of works of art all over Europe. One other word in conclusion. The words inserted by Lord Hanworth, which entailed the reflection upon him and upon myself and others this afternoon, were not invented by the Trustees of the British Museum or by Lord Hanworth himself. The words which Lord Hanworth moved, and which brought down upon our heads the censorious utterances of Lord Amulree, were in the original draft of the Bill circulated by the Government to the places concerned. Therefore I would beg your Lordships to observe that in taking the view we have we have not been guilty of any frivolous attitude, but that in the original Bill the words which we have inserted this afternoon were present by action of Ministers themselves.
VISCOUNT ULLSWATER: I do not take such a stern view as Lord Crawford of this matter. I think we might very well insert these words in the Bill. The pictures which are in the custody of the Trustees of the British Museum, the National Gallery and the National Portrait Gallery, are not, all of them, great works of art. There are many now stored away in the cellars of the buildings which are never seen by the public because they are not of first-rate quality. They may have some historic value, and in the matter of portraiture very likely may have considerable value to the place to which they might be sent. I can well imagine—I do not know—that there may be in the subterranean cellars of our galleries very interesting portraits of British Ambassadors who have played prominent parts in France, Germany, Italy, Austria and elsewhere, which might very well decorate the walls of our official buildings in the capitals of those countries. I do not see why they should not go there. When I inhabited a house at the other end of these buildings a certain number of pictures which belonged to the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery were loaned to me, and they were hung there. The same sort of thing might take place abroad.

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The noble Earl said that there is no official inspection, but I do not think he is quite right. I think the official residences of our Ambassadors and Ministers in all parts of the world are under the control of the Office of Works, and that from time to time the Office of Works send representatives to those distant places to see whether the buildings are in proper order, whether the furniture is properly taken care of and in a good state of repair, and whether the pictures also are in a proper condition. Why, as a matter of fact, the Office of Works do send to almost every one of these official residences pictures which belong to the Office of Works. You will never go into any of these residences without seeing pictures of His Majesty and of Her Majesty, or possibly even of King Edward and Queen Alexandra and other Sovereigns. There are other interesting persons whose portraits, as I have said, lie unseen in the cellars, but which might very well decorate the walls of these residences. For that reason I think that it is not an unreasonable Amendment, and I should be very glad to see it inserted in the Bill.
VISCOUNT LEE OF FAREHAM: I am sure we all listen with great respect to anything that proceeds from the noble Viscount who has just spoken, but I would remind him of this. He speaks of portraits of distinguished Ambassadors which might very well adorn the Embassies which they served in their lifetime. Those pictures, I take it, are mostly to be found in the reserve stock of the National Portrait Gallery, which already has power to lend, if it so desires, and which is not concerned with this Bill at all. The position is not in the least affected by this Bill, so far as loans from the National Portrait Gallery are concerned. Then he gave the parallel, as he claimed it to be, of the Speaker's official residence. But I suggest there is a great difference between an Embassy abroad and an official residence here in London, where the pictures lent by the National Gallery or the National Portrait Gallery are subject to the inspection of the technical staff of those galleries at all times—not of the Office of Works, but the technical inspectors of the National Gallery and the National Portrait Gallery—who can report on their condition qua pictures, which, with all respect, the officials of
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the Office of Works are quite incompetent to do.
It is a very short cry from Trafalgar Square to the Speaker's House. There is no difficulty about having a consultation when a picture is showing any signs of disrepair. But let us take the Legation in Peru, or Government House in Queensland. Pictures out there will undoubtedly remain practically on permanent loan. The climate may affect them. Blisters may appear. They may be hung in buildings where they are exposed unduly to sunshine or damp. How is a sporadic inspection by a peripatetic Office of Works minor official, who once in so many years visits these places, and has no more knowledge of pictures, probably, than the people who are already living in that house, to afford any protection for pictures under those conditions? And there is really, as I see it, a very great difference between a picture in a private house, even though that private house be official in the sense that it is where one of His Majesty's representatives lives, and an exhibition or a public gallery, where, for the time being at any rate, the picture will be under more or less expert observation, and from which in due course, and very shortly, it will return to its place of origin. In these houses abroad, the pictures, like the furniture, are absolutely at the mercy of the local housemaid.
If it is ruled that we have in our national collections pictures so uninteresting and so worthless that it does not matter what becomes of them, and we do not want to show them, then there might be an excuse for sending them away, but those are not the pictures for which we shall be asked. And perhaps I may also very respectfully join issue when the noble Viscount talks about pictures stored at the National Gallery in cellars. They are not cellars. They are exhibition rooms in a large airy basement, eight feet above the street level. So that the pictures are not in danger of perishing in the damp of cellars. I do really think there is a distinction between the two cases, and I cannot do otherwise than oppose the Amendment which the Government have moved.
LORD NORTHBOURNE: May I be allowed to make a, point which has not

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yet been made? These pictures which it is proposed to lend, possibly to Embassies and places abroad, are the property of the British public, and should be available, as far as possible at all times, to students and members of the public who wish to see them, and should not be allowed to be put away for indefinite periods in houses or other places abroad.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD AMULREE: The next Amendment on the Paper is consequential on this Amendment which has not been accepted.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The Amendment is not moved.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Passfield, can give any information to the House about the Education (School Attendance) Bill? Your Lordships will have seen that the Second Reading of the Bill, which was originally down for discussion on Tuesday next, has now been postponed until Tuesday week, February 17. So far as I am able to ascertain, there is likely to be a considerable number of noble Lords who will desire to take part in the debate, and I should think it would be hardly practicable to conclude the debate in one day. Obviously there can be no great urgency, as the Second Reading has already been postponed for a week. In the circumstances I desire to ask whether it is proposed to give two days for the Second Reading, and whether your Lordships might expect the Division, if there be one, to take place on February 18, instead of February 17. I think it would probably be for the convenience of the House if the Government were able to make any statement about that.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD PASSFIELD): My Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for having raised this question. We had proposed to put down the Second Reading for February 17. With regard to the question of whether a Division will be taken on that day or on the day following, I regret that I do not feel able to answer at this moment, but I will have the matter represented to the Leader of the House, and I will undertake that the noble and learned Viscount and the House shall have early information as to whether two days can be given for the debate. I am not authorised to say anything more than that at present. I hope the noble and learned Viscount will excuse me, in view of the sudden and unexpected illness of the Leader of the House. I take it, as a matter of fact, that if so many noble Lords wish to speak that a second day's debate will be imperative, we on this side of the House have no power to resist such a proposal. But I hope the noble and learned Viscount will allow me to consult my noble friends before giving a definite answer.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that seems a perfectly reasonable request, and possibly the noble Lord will allow me to repeat the question on Tuesday next.

BUCKROSE AND DISTRICT ELEC- TRICITY ORDER, 1930.
Special Order in respect of the urban districts of Great Driffield and Pocklington, the rural districts of Bridlington, Driffield and Sherburn, and parts of the rural districts of Beverley and Pocklington, all in the East Riding of the County of York:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
House adjourned at ten minutes past six o'clock.