Sitting of 13 March 1930

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Milford Haven Urban District Council (Water) Bill (Certified Bill),
As amended, considered; read the Third time (pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December), and passed.
Newport Corporation (No. 1) Bill (Certified Bill),
As amended, considered; King's Consent signified; Bill read the Third time (pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December), and passed.
Dundee Corporation (General Powers) Order Confirmation Bill.
Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

BRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: I have been asked by the trustees of the British Museum to present a petition which they have to submit to this House annually explaining the financial position and praying for aid. The petition recites the funded income of the trustees and points out that the establishment is necessarily attended with an expense far beyond the annual production of the above-mentioned sums, and the Trust cannot with benefit to the public be carried on without the aid of Parliament. It concludes with the Prayer:
"Your petitioners therefore humbly pray your Honourable House to grant them such further support towards enabling them to carry on the execution of the Trust reposed in them by Parliament for the general benefit of learning and useful knowledge, as to your House shall seem meet."—[King's Recommendation signified.]
Petition referred to the Committee of Supply.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  DOMESTIC SERVICE.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Labour if the Government is prepared to introduce legislation to raise the status of domestic labour by limiting hours, fixing minimum wages, and making general working conditions comparable so far as circumstances permit to other forms of labour, such as nursing?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Miss Bondfield): I should be in favour of any steps that may be practicable for raising the status of domestic labour, but I do not think the time is ripe for introducing legislation on the subject.
  Colonel CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Labour the number of young women placed by her Department from the North Eastern area in domestic service in London and the South of England for the periods 1st July to 31st December, 1928, 1st January to 30th June, 1928, and 1st July to 31st December, 1929?
  Miss BONDFIELD: I regret that these statistics are not available.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    LANCASHIRE.
    Sir GERALD HURSTasked the Minister of Labour how many persons are registered as unemployed, according to the latest available figures, in Lancashire; and what is the increase in their number since May, 1929?
    Miss BONDFIELD: On 3rd March, 1930, there were 333,412 persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Lancashire; an increase of 103,179 as compared with 27th May, 1929.
    Sir G. HURST: Will the right hon. Lady communicate those figures to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before he decides to impose fresh charges on industry?

    MANCHESTER AND SALFORD.
    Sir G. HURSTasked the Minister of Labour how many persons are registered as unemployed, according to

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    the latest available figures, in Manchester and Salford; and what is the increase in their number since May, 1929?
    Miss BONDFIELD: At 3rd March, 1930, there were 52,508 persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in the Manchester and Salford area, an increase of 16,702 as compared with 27th May, 1929.

    COTTON INDUSTRY.
    Mr. DOUGLAS HACKINGasked the Minister of Labour the number of men and women classified as belonging to the cotton industry on the registers of Employment Exchanges in the 57 principal cotton trade centres at the latest convenient date; and how these figures compare with those at the corresponding dates in 1929 and 1928?
    Miss BONDFIELD: As the answer contains a number of figures I will circulate it, if I may, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. HACKING: Can the right hon. Lady say whether there has been a big increase?
    Miss BONDFIELD: I should have to read it; it is really rather long.
    Following is the answer:
    The number of men and women classified as belonging to the cotton industry on the registers of Employment Exchanges in the 57 principal cotton trade centres at 24th February, 1930, was 105,380, of whom 38,609 were wholly unemployed and 66,771 temporarily stopped. The corresponding total at 25th February, 1929, was 45,633, of whom 17,500 were wholly unemployed and 28,133 temporarily stopped, and at 20th February, 1928, it was 34,767, of whom 12,343 were wholly unemployed and 22,424 temporarily stopped.

    MACCLESFIELD.
    Mr. REMERasked the Minister of Labour how many workers in the silk trade were registered as unemployed at the Macclesfield Employment Exchange on the last available date?
    Miss BONDFIELD: At 24th February, 1930, the number of insured persons, aged 16 to 64, classified as belonging to the silk and artificial silk industry, recorded as unemployed at Macclesfield was 871, of whom 275 were wholly
    1462
    unemployed and 596 temporarily stopped from the services of their employers.

    GERMAN WORKMEN.
    Mr. LEESasked the Minister of Labour the number of German workers who came to this country during 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929 to install German machines in hosiery and artificial silk factories?
    Miss BONDFIELD: I regret that it is not possible to state separately the numbers of German workmen admitted to this country to install German machinery in hosiery and artificial silk factories. The numbers of German erectors admitted in the years in question for the purpose of erecting machinery of all classes were as follow:

    1925

    …

    …

    …

    …

    55

    1926

    …

    …

    …

    …

    33

    1927

    …

    …

    …

    …

    95

    1928

    …

    …

    …

    …

    47

    1929

    …

    …

    …

    …

    58

    In all these cases the permits are for limited periods only.
    Mr. DAY: Can my right hon. Friend say whether these persons have all returned to their own country now?
    Miss BONDFIELD: Most of them have returned; a few of the permits issued in 1929 are still outstanding.
    Mr. DAY: Can my right hon. Friend say how many of these persons are still remaining in this country?
    Miss BONDFIELD: I must have notice of that question.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Is there any adequate way of seeing that they really do go back?
    Miss BONDFIELD: Oh, yes, I think that the check is quite clear.

    WOMEN.
    Mr. REMERasked the Minister of Labour how many men and how many women have been removed from the register of unemployed at the Employment Exchanges by the various schemes set into operation by the present Government?
    Miss BONDFIELD: I regret that no reliable estimate can be given.

    EXCHANGE ACCOMMODATION.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Labour whether when authorising the construction of Employment Exchanges, she will give full consideration to the opinions of local employment committees in regard to the provision of adequate sanitary conveniences and covered waiting accommodation?
    Miss BONDFIELD: I am always anxious to give the fullest consideration to opinions expressed by local employment committees. As regards the provision of sanitary conveniences, however, I would refer to the reply given to the hon. Member for Birkenhead West (Mr. Egan) on 27th February, in which I pointed out that this is a matter for the local authority. The desirability of outside shelters is under consideration.

    INSURANCE FUND.
    Sir ASSHETON POWNALLasked the Minister of Labour whether there are any substantial sums chargeable to the Unemployment Insurance Fund up to the end of March other than payment for benefit and the amount due for interest?
    Miss BONDFIELD: The only substantial sum chargeable to the Unemployment Fund up to the end of March other than payment of benefit and the amount due for interest is about £355,000 for the cost of administration.
    Sir A. POWNALLasked the Minister of Labour what is the indebtedness of the Unemployment Insurance Fund at the latest date available; whether the interest for the half-year due in March has yet been paid; and what is its amount?
    Miss BONDFIELD: The indebtedness of the Unemployment Fund to the Treasury on 12th March, 1930, was £37,290,000. Interest for the half-year due on 31st March, 1930, has not yet been paid. It is estimated that the interest will amount to approximately £915,000.

    STATISTICS.
    Captain Sir GEORGE BOWYERasked the Minister of Labour what was the highest and lowest weekly figure of unemployment during the period October, 1924, to June, 1929; and what is the highest and lowest weekly figure since that date?
    Miss BONDFIELD: Between October, 1924, and June, 1929, the highest number of persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 1,645,070 at 5th July, 1926, while the lowest was 978,176 at 23rd May, 1927. Between June, 1929, and 3rd March, 1930, the highest figure recorded was 1,547,217 at 3rd March, 1930, and the lowest 1,100,125 at 3rd June, 1929.
    Sir G. BOWYER: The last fact given by the right hon. Lady was the date upon which she took up her new duties. Was not that so?
    Mr. THORNE: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that since the financial crash in America—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Sir George Bowyer.

  NEWSPAPER DISTRIBUTORS (DISPUTE).
  Mr. LAWRIEasked the Minister of Labour if she has any information in respect of the dispute between the retail newspaper distributors and the proprietors of the big daily newspapers; and if she is taking any steps to bring the parties together?
  Miss BONDFIELD: I have received a communication from the National Federation of Retail Newsagents. My powers under the Industrial Courts Act, 1919, do not appear to give me any authority to intervene in the dispute between their members and the newspaper proprietors concerning the terms upon which newspapers are supplied to them.
  Mr. LAWRIE: Is the right hon. Lady aware that most of these newspaper distributors are employed by these firms, that they are engaged on the streets in selling these papers, and that the Rothermere Company, the largest firm and which made practically £1,000,000 profit, are now reducing the pay of these workers to the extent of £60,000 a year?

  MATRIMONIAL CAUSES (MAINTENANCE ORDERS).
  Sir G. BOWYERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a separation order under the Summary Jurisdiction (Married Woman) Act, 1895, providing

  1465
  for weekly payments by a man to his wife, has been held to be enforceable and the man committed to prison if default is made in payment under such order on the application of a collecting officer appointed by the Court where the wife is residing permanently abroad, and without the right to apply for the payment under the separation order being reviewed on the ground of the husband's means having been reduced since the date of the order; and whether he will take such action, by legislation or otherwise, as will prevent a wife permanently resident out of the jurisdiction of this country from having the right to enforce an order for maintenance against her husband resident in this country unless and until she herself permanently resides here?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Clynes): If a husband has deserted his wife and a maintenance order has been made against him, I see no reason why the order should not be enforced even though his wife has gone abroad. I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that the enforcement of the order is a matter in which the Justices can and do exercise discretion.
  Sir G. BOWYER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some cases the man who has gone abroad has actually died and yet the order is enforceable in this country?
  Mr. CLYNES: If there is any such case, I shall be glad to have information of it.

  PROPAGANDA SHEETS.
  Mr. SMITHERSasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to two publications, entitled the "Unemployed Special" and the "Young Worker," both obtainable in the streets of London on 6th March; and, if so, and in view of the seditious propaganda contained, what action does he propose to take?
  Mr. CLYNES: I have seen the publications to which the hon. Member refers. They do not appear be call for any action on my part.
  Mr. SMITHERS: Has the right hon. Gentleman any power to stop such publications and prosecute the publishers of them?
  Mr. CLYNES: It is not always fair or wise to use the powers which one may possess. These publications in the main consist of furious fulminations against the Government and the Labour party.
  Mr. SMITHERS: Has my right hon. Friend power to stop these publications and prosecute the publishers?
  Mr. CLYNES: I have power to stop circulation, but I am not certain about powers to prosecute the publishers.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: This question gives a very useful advertisement to these newspapers, of some of which I have never heard.
  Mr. HAYCOCK: Is not the right way to answer them by argument rather than in the police court?

  TOURISTS.
  Mr. HACKINGasked the Home Secretary the number of tourists entering this country from abroad during the years 1928 and 1929, respectively?
  Mr. CLYNES: My statistics do not enable me to distinguish tourists from other visitors on holiday. The annual return for 1928 under the Aliens Order, 1920, shows that 224,815 alien visitors to the United Kingdom were given leave to land, and the quarterly returns for 1929 show a total of 238,391.
  Mr. HACKING: Will my right hon. Friend consider whether it is possible in future returns to distinguish between those people who come here to spend their holidays and those who come for other purposes?
  Mr. CLYNES: I will consider it, but it is rather difficult to distinguish between those who come to tour this country and those who visit it for other purposes.

  PUBLIC MEETING, EUSTON ROAD.
  Mr. FREEMANasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that at a public meeting held in the Friends Hall, Euston Road, W.O., on Thursday, 27th

  1467
  February, 1930, to protest against the use of poison gas in experiments on dogs, there was an organised attempt to interrupt the meeting by medical students in spite of the efforts of from 20 to 30 policemen and about 40 stewards; and whether he will take measures to see that such meetings are protected from disturbance?
  Mr. CLYNES: No, Sir, my information is quite different. A number of police were available but their assistance was not called for or required and I am informed that the stewards had no occasion to take action against interrupters.
  Mr. FREEMAN: Is it not a fact that the meeting was continually interrupted by booing and stink bombs which prevented the meeting taking place?
  Mr. CLYNES: I have no information as to the fact that the interruptions took that form.
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Has the Home Secretary any power to prevent meetings being held which are likely to lead to a disturbance of the peace?
  Mr. CLYNES: It might lead to a disturbance if we tried to prevent meetings being held.

  RACECOURSE BETTING ACT.
  Sir BASIL PETOasked the Home Secretary whether the accounts of the Betting Control Board for the first year of their operations have been presented to him and when they will be laid before Parliament, as provided by Section 3 (8) of the Racecourse Betting Act, 1928?
  Mr. CLYNES: I would refer the hon. Baronet to my hon. Friend's reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Thirsk and Malton Division (Mr. Turton) last Monday, which applies to the Board's account as well as to their report.

  CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (CENSOR SHIP).
  Mr. HORRABINasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the character of many films now being publicly exhibited in London which have been passed by the trade censorship, he will consider the desirability of legislation setting up a Government censorship of films?
  Miss WILKINSONasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the dissatisfaction with the present unofficial trade censorship of films, he will be prepared to institute an inquiry into the question of censorship of plays and films with a view to considering the advisability of a national board of censorship?
  Mr. CLYNES: As I explained in answer to a question put to me in November last by the hon. Member for the Everton Division of Liverpool (Mr. Hall-Caine), it is a mistake to assume that the censorship of films depends entirely on the British Board of Film Censors. The responsibility for deciding the conditions under which films may be exhibited rests by law with the local licensing authorities. Most of them, it is true, rely on the systematic examination of films made by the Board, and so far as I am aware have had no reason whatever to doubt its independence or the fairness of its judgments; but it is always open to the licensing authority, on the one hand, to intervene in regard to a film which has been passed by the Board or, on the other hand, to allow the exhibition of a film which has been rejected by the Board and I understand that such special consideration is not infrequently given to particular films by the local licensing authority.
  Very few representations as to the character of films have reached the Home Office in recent years. Such complaints as have been made have referred mainly to the display of unsuitable films to children, and in nearly every case it was found on inquiry that the films in question were passed by the Board as suitable for exhibition only to adult audiences and ought never to have been shown to children. This matter was dealt with in a circular recently issued by the Home Office to all licensing authorities. As at present advised I can see no adequate reason for an inquiry as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. Horrabin).
  Mr. HORRABIN: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken note of the very strong views expressed at the meeting of the London County Council last week as to the utter folly of local authorities being put in the position of censors?
  Mr. CLYNES: On the other hand, I think, if any steps were taken to take

  1469
  those powers away from local authorities, there would be even stronger protests.
  Miss WILKINSON: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the cost of showing films to local authorities is prohibitive, and therefore the Board of Censors' view is practically always taken? Is it also not a fact that the present Board of Censorship is allowing American films which verge on the borders of indecency, while extraordinarily fine educational British films are being banned for political reasons by the censor?
  Mr. CLYNES: The terms of that question are rather argumentative, but it must not be taken that I have no sympathy with them.
  Mr. STRAUSS: In view of the expressed opinion of the London County Council that the censoring authority should be taken out of the hands of local authorities and made a national concern, does not the Home Secretary think that it would be advisable to set up an inquiry into the matter?
  Mr. CLYNES: I have already given my opinion on that point.
  Mr. HARRIS: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the appointment of a select committee to consider the whole administration?
  Mr. CLYNES: I do not rule out further consideration of this question.
  Mr. DAY: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the London County Council are now arranging for their own theatre so that the Committee can see these films for themselves? Does he not think it better that local authorities should do the same?
  Mr. CLYNES: I express no opinion on that information, but I thank the hon. Member for giving it to me.

  AMERICAN SUBJECTS (DEPORTATIONS).
  Mr. DAYasked the Home Secretary whether he has issued any orders for deportation against American subjects during the previous three months; whether ail such orders have been executed; and the names of the deportees and the reason for their deportation?
  Mr. CLYNES: During the last quarter of 1929 I ordered the deportation of two citizens of the United States of America, who have both left the country. Their names were W. A. Dunn and B. Bowker, and they were deported after conviction upon a serious charge.
  Mr. DAY: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there are any other orders which have been issued by the Home Secretary for the deportation of American citizens; and is it not the fact that in one very important case the newspapers published the information that this notice had been issued by the right hon. Gentleman before any notice was given to the person?
  Mr. CLYNES: Yes, there have been three other cases, but they are not referred to in the question.
  Mr. ALBERY: May I ask whether the Home Secretary has any difficulty in establishing the nationality of American subjects before an order for deportation is made?
  Mr. CLYNES: No serious difficulty.
  Mr. DAY: Can the right hon. Member say how it is that the newspapers published this information before the person himself received the notice?
  Mr. CLYNES: I have not the slightest idea.

  JURY SERVICE (CHEMISTS AND DRUGGISTS).
  Mr. WILLIAM BENNETTasked the Home Secretary if he will consider making an amendment to the Juries Acts, 1825 to 1922, extending the exemptions from jury service so as to include the exemption of qualified chemists and druggists?
  Mr. CLYNES: Registered pharmaceutical chemists, if actually practising, are exempted from jury service by the Juries Act, 1870, and I do not see my way to propose legislation extending the exemption.
  Mr. BENNETT: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Poison Acts and the Dangerous Drugs Acts impose considerable responsibility on chemists and druggists and that their personal presence in the shop is required by the law?
  Mr. CLYNES: Those are the reasons which have caused us to afford exemption in these cases.
  Mr. BENNETT: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is only a small section of chemists, the pharmaceutical chemists, who are exempt, and that the ordinary pharmacist and druggist is not?
  Mr. CLYNES: If there is any real grievance in the matter, I shall be glad to discuss it with my hon. Friend.

  ALIENS.
  Mr. ALBERYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the date or dates on which two Russian nationals recently left this country under a deportation order; and the dates on which they were recommended by the Courts for deportation?
  Mr. CLYNES: The persons referred to were recommended for deportation on the 26th October and 2nd November last, and they left this country on the 8th and 11th January, respectively.
  Mr. ALBERYasked the Home Secretary if any of the supposed Russian aliens subsequently stated to be of un-established nationality entered this country during the last six years; and, if so, under what circumstances and on what dates?
  Mr. CLYNES: I presume the hon. Member refers to the 11 persons mentioned in my reply to his question on the 6th instant. Of these persons only two entered this country within the last six years. These aliens landed without permission in September and October last, respectively.
  Mr. ALBERYasked the Home Secretary what procedure is ultimately adopted in the case of aliens whose nationality the Home Office has failed to establish?
  Mr. CLYNES: As I indicated in my answer to the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) on 28th November last, such aliens are, in proper cases, placed, on their release from prison, under restrictions intended to secure so far as possible that their offences shall not be repeated.
  Mr. ALBERY: Are we to understand that these aliens without any established nationality remain indefinitely in that position, and that no special efforts are made to discover their nationality?
  Mr. CLYNES: Certainly every effort is made, if it is in the interests of the country that their presence should be retained here.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Could not they be handed over to the League of Nations?
  Mr. SANDERS: Is it not a fact that, owing to the changes of boundaries and the transference of territories after the great War, a considerable number of people are legally without any nationality at all?

  PRISON RULES (SOLITARY CONFINEMENT).
  Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Home Secretary whether changes in the code of prison rules are contemplated, including that which requires a prisoner sentenced to hard labour to be employed in solitary confinement during the first 14 days of his sentence?
  Mr. CLYNES: I would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave to him on 27th February last and to the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) on the 4th February last. The effect of the replies then given is to answer both parts of the present question in the affirmative.

  POLICE.

    ADVANCED EDUCATION (FACILITIES).
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to establish a police college for the purpose of affording police officers facilities for advanced education and with a view to qualifying them for advancement to higher positions in the police force?
    Mr. CLYNES: At the meeting of the Police Council held last week I took the opportunity to consult the Council with regard to a scheme of this kind which I had had under consideration for some time. On the whole it was favourably received, but no decision has been or can be arrived at until the subject has been

    1473
    further explored. A Sub-Committee of the Police Council is being constituted for the purpose.
    Mr. OLDFIELD: Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that these facilities will only be open to men who have joined the ranks as police constables?
    Mr. CLYNES: I think it would be impossible for persons to be admitted to a college of the kind contemplated, unless they had joined the ranks in the ordinary way.

    MOTOR DRIVERS' LICENCES (EXAMINATION).
    Mr. D. G SOMERVILLEasked the Home Secretary whether the Metropolitan Police Force adopts the practice of permitting plain-clothes officers to stop motorists in order to see their licences; whether his attention has been called to risks of night driving on roads due to the presence of roughs and suspicious characters; and whether, in view of the natural disinclination of women drivers to stop at night when requested to do so by individuals in plain clothes, he will consider the desirability in all cases of issuing instructions that only uniformed officers must stop motor cars after sunset for the purpose of making inquiries?
    Mr. CLYNES: If the suggested prohibition were made absolute, officers of the Criminal Investigation Department engaged in the detection of crime might be unduly hampered, but apart from such exceptional cases the practice of the Metropolitan Police already secures that only officers in uniform shall stop cars whether by day or by night.

  BUILDING SOCIETIES (FIRE INSURANCES).
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLEasked the Home Secretary how many building societies conduct fire insurance business; and the total fire insurance premiums paid to such societies during the last year for which the figures are available?
  Mr. CLYNES: The Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies informed me that, so far as he is aware, no building societies conduct fire insurance business, but there are four societies which are believed to carry all or part of the fire risks in respect
  1474
  of properties in mortgage to them, the premium being paid by the mortgagors. As to the second part of the question, he has no particulars.
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Is any action taken to insist that such friendly societies shall give notice to their members of the amount of any risk incurred in this way?
  Mr. CLYNES: That is a point of detail of which, perhaps, the hon. and gallant Member will give me notice.
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLEasked the Home Secretary the number of cases in which action has been taken against building societies for exceeding their powers under the Building Societies Acts by conducting fire insurance business?
  Mr. CLYNES: So far as the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies is aware, the answer is none.

  PROSECUTION AND SENTENCE, TOTTENHAM.
  Mr. FRANK OWENasked the Home Secretary if he has decided to remit or reduce the sentence of three months' imprisonment passed upon May Christian at Tottenham Police Court for stealing the contents, of a perambulator in February?
  Mr. CLYNES: This matter has not been lost sight of, and will not be; but it is too early yet to decide what will be the right course to adopt. I am satisfied that the girl's own interests would not at present be served by her release.

  RUSSIAN OIL PRODUCTS, LIMITED (EMPLOYES).
  Sir A. POWNALLasked the Home Secretary the number, if any, of the subjects of the Soviet Government who have been given permission to work in this country as employés of Russian Oil Products, Limited?
  Mr. CLYNES: On 1st March, 1930, there were 46 Soviet citizens employed by Russian Oil Products, Limited, in the United Kingdom.

  EDUCATION.

    KINDNESS TO ANIMALS.
    Mr. FREEMANasked the President of the Board of Education whether kindness to animals forms part of the code of regulations to public elementary schools; if so, what is being done to give it practical effect; is any provision made for similar instructions to secondary schools; and, if not, will he take steps to do so?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Sir Charles Trevelyan): The Board do not prescribe the subjects to be included in the curriculum of elementary schools, but their Handbook of Suggestions for Teachers calls attention to the desirability of inculcating kindness to animals, and I have every reason to believe that teachers both in elementary and in secondary schools take full advantage of their opportunities for doing so.

    VOCATIONAL GUIDANCE.
    Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the work carried out by the National Institute of Industrial Psychology on the subject of vocational guidance at the institute and in various schools, elementary and other, in different parts of the country; and whether it is his intention that this work shall be further developed?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: I have seen reports of this work, but it is being carried out by the National Institute of Industrial Psychology on their own responsibility, and the question of its further development is not one that I have any authority to determine.
    Mr. BEAUMONT: In view of the extreme danger of this work, will the right hon. Gentleman use great care in introducing it into national schools?
    Mr. MANDER: Will the Minister give very careful and sympathetic consideration to the possibility of the development of this work in the interests of the children?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: Up to the present no suggestions have been made to me by those people.

    MAINTENANCE ALLOWANCES.
    Dr. VERNON DAVIESasked the President of the Board of Education why no representatives of industry were asked to serve on the committee which is advising him with regard to maintenance grants for school children at 14 years of age; and will the representatives of industry be given an opportunity of placing their views before him before he arrives at a decision?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: I asked local education authorities to appoint representatives to form this committee because of their long experience of the administration of maintenance allowances in respect of children attending secondary and central schools. I shall, of course, be glad to consider any views that representatives of industry may wish to place before me.
    Dr. DAVIES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that industry is vitally interested in this question, as the representatives of industry will have to provide the money for the maintenance grants?
    HON. MEMBERS: Why should they not?

    PENSIONED TEACHERS.
    Dr. DAVIESasked the President of the Board of Education the number of men and women teachers under 65 years of age in receipt of pensions, giving, if possible, the number for each yearly age period after retirement?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: The question involves a number of figures and I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:
    There are 2,148 men and 4,252 women under 65 years of age in receipt of teachers' pensions other than infirmity pensions.
    The figures for the different ages are as follows:

    Aged.

    Men.

    Women.

    60

    265

    …

    …

    670

    61

    316

    …

    …

    748

    62

    466

    …

    …

    892

    63

    496

    …

    …

    944

    64

    605

    …

    …

    998

    Totals

    2,148

    …

    …

    4,252

    DEFECTIVE SCHOOL BUILDINGS, SOMERSET.
    Mr. GOULDasked the President of the Board of Education the number of blacklisted schools now in use in the administrative county of Somerset; how many are provided; and what number are non-provided?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: There are seven schools in Somersetshire included in the "black list" as unsuitable for continued recognition—one provided and six non-provided. There are 40 other schools listed as in some degree defective—11 provided and 29 non-provided.
    Major GEORGE DAVIES: Is it not a fact that in this respect Somerset compares more than favourably with other counties?

    REORGANISATION SCHEMES.
    Duchess of ATHOLLasked the President of the Board of Education how many local authorities have submitted programmes covering the period 1930 to 1933; and how many of these programmes indicate that these local authorities will be able to carry into effect their schemes of reorganisation by April 1931?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: 202 local authorities have submitted programmes, of which 162 are complete and 40 partial or preliminary. The programmes indicate that in the majority of areas the schemes of reorganisation proposed are likely to become effective in time to provide for the full number of additional children who will be retained in the schools after the raising of the school leaving age.
    Duchess of ATHOLL: By "complete programmes" does the right hon. Gentleman mean to convey that, in so far as these programmes refer to work necessitated by the raising of the school age, they give an assurance that that work will be completed by the date on which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to raise the school age?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: Not that the whole programme can be complete, but, as far as raising the school age is concerned, they will have the schools for the children.
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: How many of the authorities very much object to the scheme for raising the school age?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: Very few of them. The majority of authorities are asking this House to hasten the passing of the Bill.
    Mr. COVE: Is it not a fact that the County Councils Association passed a resolution yesterday asking that the school age may be raised?

    TRANSPORT OF CHILDREN (GRANT).
    Dr. DAVIESasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that circulars 1,397 and 1,404, issued by him, will entail such costs for the transport of children to school in many rural areas as to be a heavy burden on the rates; that this burden will not arise in urban areas; and, to avoid any preferential treatment, does he propose to increase the grant-in-aid to rural areas?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) on the 20th February, of which I am sending him a copy.

    ROBERT OZLER CHARITY, LEYTON.
    Mr. SORENSENasked the President of the Board of Education why one-third of the net income of the Robert Ozler Charity will henceforth be applied by the vicars of Leyton and Walthamstow for the use of Church of England Sunday schools, seeing that the original purpose of the testator was to provide for the teaching of the children in reading and writing free, and that only one-tenth of the population of Leyton are Anglican communicants?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: The trustees of Ozler's Charity from the time of its establishment in the Seventeenth Century decided that Church teaching should be given in the school, and their action was confirmed by the Court of Chancery. It would not be proper for me to disregard the claims of the religious side of the trust as thus established.
    Mr. SORENSEN: If that is so, will the right hon. Gentleman explain why part of this money is not being used for this charity at the present time?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: I am afraid that I do not understand.

    NEW SCHOOL BUILDINGS.
    Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Education how many council, Roman Catholic, and Church of England school buildings, respectively, approved by his Department, are at present in course of construction, and the accommodation these buildings will afford in each category when completed?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: The numbers of school buildings for which plans have been approved by the Board but which are not yet completed are as follow:

    217

    Council schools, providing 121,800 places.

    22

    Roman Catholic schools, providing 7,100 places.

    2

    Church of England schools, providing 350 places.

    Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Education how many notices under Section 18 of the Education Act, 1921, of intention to provide council, Roman Catholic, and Church of England school buildings, respectively, are at present current, and the accommodation the buildings in each category, if erected, will provide?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: Notices are now current in respect of the following proposals for new schools or enlargements:

    122

    Council schools, providing 54,600 places.

    5

    Roman Catholic schools, providing 960 places.

    3

    Church of England schools, providing 280 places.

    DOMESTIC TRAINING.
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the number of unemployed women and the difficulty of obtaining female domestic labour, he will consider the possibility of giving special domestic training to suitable pupils during their final year at the State elementary schools and of making special arrangements for placing such girls in suitable households?
    Sir C. TREVELYAN: A large number of the girls in public elementary schools already receive instruction in domestic subjects during their last years at school, and the schemes of reorganisation now being carried out will lead to a considerable further increase in the facilities for
    1480
    this work. Arrangements already exist in many areas for placing girls in employment, either through the juvenile employment bureaux of the local education authorities or through the Employment Exchanges of the Ministry of Labour.
    Mr. ISAACS: If anything is done in this connection, will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain as to the suitability of the households by inquiring of previous servants?

  LONDON NAVAL CONFERENCE.
  Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Prime Minister whether at the Five-Power Naval Conference any proposal and, if so, of what nature, has been put forward in favour of a pact dependent upon disarmament; and, if so, what attitude has been adopted by this country?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Phillip Snowden): I think that while the Conference is in progress questions of this kind are to be deprecated.
  Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it a fact, as reported, that the insistence of France on her demand necessitates additional building in this country?
  Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement concerning the progress of the Five-Power Naval Conference?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on Monday last in reply to a question by the hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) to which my right hon. Friend has nothing to add.
  Mr. MALONE: Is it the intention of the Government to make a statement on the Naval Conference before, or on the introduction of the Navy Estimates?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not think that that would be possible. Anybody who has had any experience of conferences such as the Naval Conference knows that it is quite impossible while conversations and negotiations are in progress to make any statement which would be of much value.
  Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Am I right in understanding that the intention of the Prime Minister is to make a

  1481
  Statement to the House at the earliest possible moment when the progress of the Conference proceedings permits of such a statement, and that, therefore, the first statement when the right hon. Gentleman is in a position to make one, will be made in this House and will not appear in the Press before we hear it?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I think the Prime Minister has already given that undertaking.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: While the right hon. Gentleman may be quite right in what he says about not making a premature statement, does he not see that the introduction of the Navy Estimates before the conclusion of the Conference will make matters very difficult indeed for this House?

  RELIGIOUS SITUATION, RUSSIA (INTERCESSORY PRAYERS).
  Mr. MARJORIBANKSasked the Prime Minister the names of the four religious bodies which have made representations to the Government on the subject of the decision with regard to prayers on church parades on behalf of Christians in Russia?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I have nothing to add to what has already been said in reply to questions by the hon. Member.
  Mr. MARJORIBANKS: Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman refuses to give the names of these religious bodies?

  ELECTORAL LAW (CONFERENCE).
  Mr. MANDERasked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to introduce and pass into law as an agreed Measure any proposals arising from the Committee on Electoral Reform now sitting under the chairmanship of Lord Ullswater during the present Session?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: My right hon. Friend has not yet received a Report from the Committee, and cannot therefore make any statement as to the intentions of the Government.
  Mr. MANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that the Measure will not include any revolutionary proposal, such as the referendum?

  COTTON INDUSTRY (INQUIRY).
  Mr. HACKINGasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the growing depression in the cotton industry, he will announce at an early date the Government's proposals for dealing with this industry?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: My right hon. Friend is not in a position at present to add anything to the previous answers on this subject.
  Mr. HACKING: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general feeling in Lancashire is that the Government are not taking this inquiry quite seriously, especially in view of the fact that there have already been three different chairmen of this Committee since it was set up, two of whom know nothing about the cotton industry?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: If there be any such impression in Lancashire, it has no foundation at all. The Government are very earnest in this matter and, as I said a few days ago in reply to a question, the inquiries of the Committee are being pressed forward with the utmost expedition.
  Mr. HACKING: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many times the committee has met and how many hours it has sat?
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Has the evidence yet been finished?

  POOR LAW.

    TEST WORK, HULL.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the test work imposed by the Hull board of guardians on men seeking relief in Hull has recently been increased; whether he has authorised this increase; and whether the regulations regarding test work have been modified since he became Minister of Health and, if so, to what extent?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. I may say that the increased hours only amount to 21 per week, being arranged to enable all men to attend at the docks and elsewhere at the times

    1483
    when men are being engaged. As regards the last part, the Regulations have not yet been modified, but I have published a new draft Order which, if made, will come into operation on let April.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do I understand that my right hon. Friend did authorise this increase, and is he aware that that is very different from what he used to say on the other side of the House? May I ask my hon. Friend to give me an answer?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Then why does my right hon. Friend authorise this increase?
    Major GAVIES: Is there any reason why the Minister should be testy about it?

    UNEMPLOYED PERSONS (RELIEF).
    Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet any proposals to make to Parliament that relief due to unemployment should be borne nationally?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: No, Sir.
    Sir K. WOOD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember all that he and his friends have said on this matter, and is he not going to do anything?
    HON. MEMBERS: Answer!
    Mr. MALONE: Can the right hon. Gentleman recollect whether the last Government carried out all their election pledges in the first Session?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The answer is the same, "No."

    OFFICERS.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Minister of Health whether he has received any protests respecting the terms of his recent Order affecting the relations of the master and medical officers in Poor Law institutions?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The Order to which the hon. Member refers has not yet been made, but has been published as a Draft. I have received a number of representations in regard to the Draft
    1484
    Order which will receive my careful consideration.
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Health whether he will amend Regulations 144 and 145 of the Poor Law Regulations Draft Order of 31st January, 1930, in order to permit a pharmacist to rank as principal officer in Poor Law infirmaries and hospitals?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The answer is in the negative. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 5th December to the hon. Member for South Battersea (Mr. W. Bennett) on this subject, from which it will be seen that the Draft Order continues what has been the general practice.
    Mr. MORLEY: Has not the right hon. Gentleman received a number of representations from pharmacists to the effect that they consider that this is derogatory to their professional status, and will he reconsider the matter?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I have received a number of representations, but I do not see any advantage in changing the present procedure.
    Captain GUNSTON: Does not the Draft Order depart from this practice, and does it not lay down that pharmacists cannot be principal officers, so that local authorities under this Order cannot employ pharmacists as principal officers?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: In this respect I understand that the Order does not depart from the existing practice.
    Mr. BROCKWAY: Was not some indication given to pharmacists that these positions would be open to them, and is it not a fact that the Regulation now issued excludes them from those positions?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: So far as I know, no intimation was given to pharmacists.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider this matter in view of the great concern in many parts of the country?
    Mr. W. BENNETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men were at one time principal officers, and it was only an Order which robbed them of that position? Is he not aware that they hold very responsible positions to-day?
    Mr. HARRISasked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to modify Poor Law Order 160, which requires that no person shall be appointed a chief Poor Law officer except he has had previous Poor Law experience; and whether the Order will preclude a qualified teacher being appointed head master of a Poor Law school except he has had Poor Law experience?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The question of modifying the Article of the Draft Order to which the hon. Member refers is receiving consideration. It is not intended that the Order should have the effect stated in the last part of the question.

    RELIEF (CHILDREN).
    Mr. JOWETTasked the Minister of Health the number of children for whom out-relief was being paid on the most recent date for which the information is available, and the cost per week of the relief paid on their account?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The average number of children under 16 years of age in receipt of out-relief in England and Wales during December, 1929, was 331,516. The returns received in my Department do not show separately the amount of out-relief in money and kind afforded to children.
    Mr. McSHANE: Can the Department make any rough calculation as to what the amount would be, as is done by the Ministry of Labour?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: No, that is utterly impossible, because the only returns that we get are in one lump sum payable in money and in kind, and they are not differentiated.
    Mr. JOWETTasked the Minister of Health the number of children of school age in Poor Law institutions, including cottage and other children's homes, on the most recent date for which the information is available?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The number of children between 3 and 16 years of age in England and Wales in receipt of relief in Poor Law institutions, including cottage and other children's homes and other separate establishments for children on the night of the 1st January, 1929, was 38,476. The returns received in my Department do not distinguish children of school age.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    INFLUENZA (INSURED PERSONS).
    Dr. MORRIS-JONESasked the Minister of Health whether there has been any general decrease in the number of cases of influenza among the insured population during January and February of this year as compared with the corresponding period in 1929?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: As I informed the hon. Member on the 6th instant, no information is available with regard to the number of cases of influenza among the insured population during the periods in question. The only available statistics on the matter are those contained in the Registrar-General's weekly returns, from which it appears that the number of deaths registered in 107 great towns in England and Wales as being due to influenza was 5,347 during the first eight weeks of 1929 as against 582 during the first eight weeks of 1930. Taking these figures as an indication of the number of cases of influenza amongst the insured population during the two periods, it is clear that the position this year was very much better than in 1929.

    MENTAL TREATMENT.
    Mr. KINLEYasked the Minister of Health the total amount spent by local authorities on mental cases during 1929, or the last completed year, and the amount of assistance given by the Government for this purpose?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The expenditure of local authorities in maintaining mental hospitals under the Lunacy Act for the year ended 31st March, 1929, amounted to £7,981,257, exclusive of loan charges. During the same period the expenditure in respect of mental defectives was £607,301 borne by the local authorities, and £609,519 borne by the Exchequer.
    Mr. KINLEYasked the Minister of Health the number of establishments in which lunatics are treated and the number of patients therein, showing the positions of those under local authority and private ownership respectively?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: As the answer to this question involves a number of statistics, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The following table indicates the number of institutions in which persons of unsound mind (voluntary and certified) are received and the number of patients (voluntary and certified) under care on the 1st January, 1930, in England and Wales:

    Number of Institutions.

    Type of Institution.

    Number of Patients Resident.

    (1)

    99

    County and Borough Mental Hospitals.

    117,486

    (2)

    14

    Registered Hospitals

    2,493

    (3)

    54

    Licensed Houses

    2,964

    (4)

    1

    Royal Naval Hospital

    115

    (5)

    1

    Military Hospital

    37

    (6)

    1

    Criminal Asylum

    827

    (1) Provided by Local Authorities.

    (2) Supported wholly or partly by voluntary contributions or by charitable gift or bequest or by applying excess of payments of some patients for or towards support, provision or benefit of other patients.

    (3)Institutions under private ownership.

    (4) Provided by the Admiralty.

    (5) Provided by the War Office.

    (6) Provided by the Home Office.

    WELLS COUNTY MENTAL HOSPITAL.
    Mr. GOULDasked the Minister of Health the weekly number of hours worked by the staff at the Wells County Mental Hospital, Somerset?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The weekly number of hours worked by the nursing and domestic staff in Wells Mental Hospital is in accordance with the recommendations of the Joint Conciliation Committee of the Mental Hospitals Association and the National Asylum Workers Union, namely, 66 hours per week inclusive of meal times. The farm staff work 50 hours per week, which is the number agreed to by the local committee of the Agricultural Wages Board. The building and repairs staff work 44 hours per week, which are the current weekly hours in the district for the various skilled trades.
    Mr. GOULDasked the Minister of Health the largest number of beds in any one room now in use in the Wells County Mental Hospital, Somerset?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: There are 75 beds in one dormitory of a size which gives 600 cubic feet of space for each occupant.
    Mr. GOULD: Does the right hon. Gentleman regard this mass sleeping accommodation as conducive to the best interests of the patients?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Unfortunately, it is the best accommodation that they have at the moment.
    Mr. GOULD: Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations through his Department to the Wells Mental Hospital asking them for an early change in the dreadful conditions of the sleeping accommodation?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I will consider that suggestion.

    BLIND WELFARE.
    Sir K. WOODasked the Minister of Health whether the recommendations contained in the recent Report of the advisory committee on the Welfare of the Blind have received his consideration; if so, what action he proposes to take in the matter; and whether the Government have decided to bring before Parliament proposals for giving pensions to blind people at 40 years of age?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I have circulated this Report to the local authorities concerned. The matter referred to in the last part of the question is under consideration.
    Sir K. WOOD: Is not the right hon. Gentleman going to do something in this matter? Has the whole Ministry ceased its functions altogether?
    HON. MEMBERS: Answer!

    RHEUMATIC DISEASES (TREATMENT).
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the suffering and loss of national efficiency due to the incidence of rheumatic diseases, he will set up a committee to consider the best means of extending facilities for treatment and making a comprehensive attack on this evil?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Until further experience has been gained of the treatment of rheumatism at the new clinic established by the British Red Cross Society and elsewhere, I think it would

    1489
    be premature to consider the appointment of a committee for the purpose referred to by the hon. Member. But I shall be prepared to give sympathetic consideration to any practicable proposals which may be submitted to me by local authorities for the provision of facilities for treatment.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Would it not be better, in the opinion of the Ministry of Health, if the Government were to multiply by 10 the very exiguous amount of the Government grants to medical research? Would not that be more likely to produce more results?

    DAIRY CATTLE (SHOWS).
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Health whether he consulted the British Dairy Farmers' Association before issuing the circular which requires certified and grade A (T T) herds to be completely isolated from all other cattle; and what was their opinion?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Yes, Sir. The matter was discussed with representatives of the Association, who stated that it was not practicable at their show to make the arrangements hitherto required by my Department as essential for the separation of tested and untested animals. As it appeared that similar difficulties existed at other shows, I felt that it would be inconsistent with the provisions of the Special Designations Order of 1923 to allow the exhibition of tested animals at shows at which untested animals were also exhibited, and I accordingly issued the circular referred to in the question.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the secretary of this association—I have his letter in my hand—denies that the Ministry consulted them at all, and says that their opinion is absolutely contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said; and will the right hon. Gentleman take more care in his answers to give the truth, instead of—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order!
    Mr. GREENWOOD: If the hon. Member cares to believe the gentleman from whom he has received that letter, I have no more to say.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Surely the secretary of the association, writing officially for his council, ought to be believed. I telephoned again to him yesterday, and he told me that it was so, and that I was at liberty to say what I liked about it.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I can only say that it is not customary for a Minister of the Crown deliberately to give false information.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Will the Minister look into this matter?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I ask the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]—if he will look into this matter? [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]. Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly look into this matter?
    Mr. SPEAKER: There does not appear to be anything to withdraw.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: May I ask if this may be investigated by the Minister? [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] If he finds that I am wrong, I will willingly apologise. [Interruption.] But it was not. A false answer!
    Earl WINTERTON: May I ask whether, in view of the importance of this matter, the right hon. Gentleman will have a copy of the Order placed in the Library; and whether his attention has been called to the fact that this Order is likely to reduce the production of the milk in question, which is already too little for the requirements of the country.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I do not accept the latter part of what is said by the Noble Lord, but I will certainly have a copy of the Order put in the Library.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not look into this matter again and give the result of his inquiries to the House in so far as it appears that there is a perfectly unintentional but at the same time a genuine misunderstanding with regard to the matter? It is one of very great importance.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I cannot undertake to discuss this matter. I have said that we consulted representatives of that association. If my word is challenged, I have nothing more to say.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am quite certain that no Member desires to challenge the good faith of the right hon. Gentleman and nobody wishes to challenge the good faith of the secretary. Can the right hon. Gentleman say who were the members of the Association who were consulted? We could then find out whether they were properly authorised by the Association to speak in its name.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman may take it that when I say representatives of the Association I mean people who are qualified to speak for it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they?"] They were representatives of the Association.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman has not got the names with him, but does he see any objection to supplying their names, so that we may have this matter cleared up?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: This is most unusual. I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman is making no imputation on my good faith, but he is impugning the accuracy of my statement, and I resent it.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I really hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not make a personal matter of this, as there is obviously some misunderstanding. He believes that he has consulted authorised spokesmen of the Association. The secretary of the Association says that they have not been consulted. Is there any objection to his supplying the names of the people whom he consulted? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]
    Mr. SPEAKER: I really think there is some misunderstanding, I did not understand the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Brown) to accuse the right hon. Gentleman of deliberately making a false statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "He did."] That is where the misunderstanding is. If he had done so, he would have been out of order in making that statement, and I should have called him to order immediately, but he accused the right hon. Gentleman of giving information which was not accurate, apparently without any knowledge of having done so.

    PSITTACOSIS.
    Mr. G. WHITEasked the Minister of Health if he can confirm the reported discovery and isolation of the virus of psittacosis at a London hospital?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The results obtained at this hospital have not yet been confirmed, but a great deal of work with the object of elucidating this disease is in progress and I am hopeful of valuable results being obtained.

  HOUSING.

    NORTHSTEAD ESTATE, SCARBOROUGH (RENTS).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the Scarborough Corporation, who have erected 192 houses on the Northstead estate under the terms of the Housing Act, 1924, are charging 9s. per week plus rates for houses whose economic rent should be 6s. 4d. per week; and what steps he has taken to ensure that the tenants shall enjoy the benefits of the Act?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I am in communication with the council on the subject of the rents charged for houses on this estate, and am awaiting further particulars to be furnished by them.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman insist upon the tenants in the houses of this particular estate securing all the benefits to which they are entitled under the 1924 Housing Act?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Certainly, but I must have all the information first.

    DECONTROLLED HOUSES (RENTS).
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to the excessive rents often charged for decontrolled houses; and if he proposes to introduce legislation to set up fair-rent courts?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: This matter will receive consideration in connection with any legislation amending the Rent Restriction Acts, but as I have indicated in reply to other questions, it will not be practicable to introduce further legislation in the immediate future.
    Mr. BEAUMONT: Is it not a fact that these decontrolled houses axe Government houses?

    MALDEN AND COOMBE.
    Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Health if he is yet in a position to answer the petition of certain residents in the urban district of the Maidens and Coombe asking for the provision of further houses to let by the urban district council?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: At present I am unable to add anything to my reply to my hon. Friend's question of the 3rd instant.
    Mr. EDE: When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give an answer on this matter?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: If the hon. Member will see me privately, I will find out.
    Mr. SKELTON: Might that answer be repeated, because nobody here heard it?

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Mr. HARRISasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Rent Restrictions Act is being evaded by property owners by allowing properties to get into such a bad state of repair that local authorities have to issue a closing order, so that the owner gets possession and lets the property at a much higher rent for commercial or other purposes; and whether he will consider introducing amending legislation in his contemplated Housing Bill to meet cases of this kind?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion. As he is no doubt aware local authorities have already wide powers of requiring the execution of works necessary to keep houses in all respects fit for human habitation.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

    EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTIONS.
    Sir K. WOODasked the Minister of Health what action he has taken with regard to the deputation he has received from the national conference of friendly societies and other bodies asking for the Exchequer contribution to health insurance to be restored to its original proportion?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I have nothing to add to the replies on the same subject
    1494
    which I gave to the right hon. Member on the 14th November and 13th February last.
    Sir K. WOOD: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember describing this as "petty theft," and how does he now describe his own conduct?
    HON. MEMBERS: Answer!

    DISABLEMENT BENEFIT.
    Mr. PALMERasked the Minister of Health how many insured persons under the National Health Insurance Act have been adversely affected in disablement benefit owing to arrears not now covered by the provisions of the prolongation of insurance regulations and allowed for in the transitional arrangements; and what steps, if any, can be taken to restore the title to the full disablement benefit for this restricted class whose disability precluded the chances of employment?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I presume that my hon. Friend refers to those cases in which there has been a reduction in the standard rates of sickness and disablement benefits payable to insured persons after the lapse of a long period without the payment of contributions, and I would refer him to the reply on the same subject given to the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) on the 11th instant.

    UNEMPLOYED PERSONS (BENEFITS).
    Mr. THOMAS LEWISasked the Minister of Health if, with a view to mitigating hardship among persons who are genuinely unemployed, he will introduce the necessary legislation to provide for the payment of full sickness and disablement benefits during the further extended year, in place of half sickness and disablement benefits as provided under Section 1, Sub-section (3), of the National Health Insurance Act, 1928, without the imposition of the existing conditions as to previous insurability and payment of contributions, but subject only to evidence of genuine unemployment throughout the normal free period of insurance?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I cannot undertake to introduce legislation to the effect suggested by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. LEWIS: Will the right hon. Gentleman issue Regulations which will

    1495
    enable the amount to be increased to threequarters? Under the Act the societies must not reduce the benefit by more than a half, but he has power to give more. Will he consider that point?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I would remind the hon. Member that but for the Regulations I made these people would be receiving no benefit at all. Having regard to the limited funds of approved societies, it is very difficult to agree that members who have not paid a single contribution for years should permanently receive full benefit.
    Mr. LEWIS: But is the Minister not aware that according to the Act they must not reduce the benefit to more than a half?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I am pointing out to the hon. Member that benefits would have ceased to exist if it had not been for my recent Regulation.
    Mr. LEWIS: Which you were bound to make, I understand.

  CONVERSION LOAN.
  Mr. OLDFIELD (by Private Notice)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the result of the recent offer of 4½ per Cent. Conversion Loan 1944/64?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The following are the approximate totals:

  £

  4½ per Cent. Conversion Loan issued for cash

  60,800,000

  4½ per Cent. Conversion Loan issued in exchange for 5½ per Cent. Treasury Bonds, 1930

  32,000,000

  Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman now appreciate the folly of having previously issued a 5 per cent. conversion loan and so fixing the credit of this country at 5 per cent., and, in addition, having had to underwrite a portion of the same by issuing it at a discount?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: On the contrary, it has justified that action. It only shows that all my financial operations are conducted not only with discretion but with wisdom.
  Mr. ALBERY: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has invariably stated in this House that it is most undesirable to issue new loans at a discount?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: No, I have never said that. I have said that it is very undesirable to issue loans at a large discount, and, in issuing this loan at 95, I have followed the recommendation of the Colwyn Committee.

  COTTON IMPORT DUTIES, INDIA.
  Mr. HAMMEKSLEY (by Private Notice)asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a telegram from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce:
  "Lancashire much perturbed at this morning's reports India cotton duties. Urge immediate cable representation to Government of India expressing dismay at Private Member's motion to increase to 20 per cent. duty on British plain goods. 15 per cent. gives Bombay mills margin greater than circumstances justify. Further margin on any part of the trade would be regarded as intentionally anti-British and would gravely prejudice political situation. Indian Government should adhere strongly to its first well considered proposals and should decline any alterations, otherwise serious political reactions unavoidable in this country";
  And what action he is taking in the matter?
  Mr. GILLETT (Secretary Overseas Trade Department): A telegram in those terms has been received. In the absence of my right hon. Friend I have replied as follows:
  "President had left for Geneva before receipt yesterday of your telegram in regard to Indian cotton duties; but we ascertained from India Office that the Tariff Bill was to be introduced to-day (Thursday) and that Government of India had already agreed to accept amendment to which you refer so that no opportunity remained for further representations such as you suggested. You will have seen from the correspondence published in this morning's papers that the Government here had previously done everything in their power to represent Lancashire's views as strongly as India's recognised position in fiscal matters permitted. We understand that the Government of India agreed to the amendment in order to ensure the acceptance of the Bill which, though no doubt in the present form less advantageous to Lancashire than the original proposals, confers preference on a substantial proportion of cotton goods exported to India from this country."

  1497
  I ought perhaps to explain that under the proposals now before the Indian Legislative Assembly, as I understand them, the duty on British plain grey goods is not to be one of 20 per cent. in all cases but one of 15 per cent. or 3½ annas per pound, whichever is the greater.
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Are we to understand that, in face of an alteration of the proposal on behalf of the Indian Legislature, the Government are not even going to make representations when the alteration is of a vital character which affects the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of workers in this country?
  Mr. GILLETT: The hon. Member will, no doubt, have seen from the papers today that representations have already been made by the Government. When this telegram came to us, the decision of the Indian Government had already been made, and it therefore seems to us that the wisest course is to fall in with their ideas, and to obtain what advantages are already to be obtained, and will be obtained, under this proposal, after the amendment has been accepted, rather than to risk the whole lot by asking for a reconsideration of the matter.
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Are we to understand that, whatever the alterations are, however inimical they are to the largest exporting trade of this country, however bad they may be for this great industry, the Government are not prepared to make any representations?
  Mr. GILLETT: The hon. Member is to understand nothing of the sort. We have made the fullest possible representations. We have the very best reasons for thinking that the course we are now following is the wisest, and in the best interests of the industry.
  Earl WINTERTON: Can the hon. Gentleman clarify his statement to this extent? He spoke of the decision having been made, but I understood him to say earlier that the Bill had not yet been introduced in the Assembly; and how can the Government, therefore, have taken a decision before there has actually been discussion of the matter?
  Mr. GILLETT: The Bill has already been introduced in the Assembly, and I understand that there has been some discussion
  1498
  on it. The Noble Lord will have seen from the papers to-day that the Amendment which is being accepted was discussed a day or two ago.
  Earl WINTERTON: It was not discussed in the Assembly—[Interruption.]
  Mr. COMPTON: Will my hon. Friend represent to the Manchester Chamber of Commerce that the City of Manchester has 10 Members here, and none of us has had any notification of this telegram, which savours of political purposes?
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: May I press the hon. Gentleman further on this particular point? The question arises, not out of the original proposal, but in respect of an amendment, and the question I am asking is whether, on that amendment, however deleterious it would be to our greatest exporting trade, however inimical it would be to their interests, no protest and no representations are to be made?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That question has already been answered.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be the business for next week?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: On Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday we propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy, Air and Army Estimates, respectively, and to take the essential Votes in Committee, as follow:
Monday: Navy Estimates, Votes A, 1, 10 and 2.
Tuesday: Air Estimates, Votes A, 1, 4, 3 and 8.
Wednesday: Army Estimates, Votes A, 1, 10, 11, 13, 14 and 15. The Committee of Ways and Means Resolutions will also be taken on Wednesday.
Thursday: Completion of the Committee stage of the Coal Mines Bill.
On any day, should time permit, other Orders may be taken.
Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: With regard to Monday's business, may I ask whether it is intended that the First Lord of the Admiralty shall be here, and,

1499
in that case, will there be a statement from him on the negotiations that are going on with the other Naval Powers?
Mr. SNOWDEN: My right hon. Friend will certainly be here. He will decide himself in what form his statement shall be made.
Mr. BALDWIN: With reference to the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in the name of the Prime Minister, may I ask, Mr. Speaker, if the Motion may be put in two parts, as we wish to protest against the almost daily putting down
of a Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule?
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Unemployment (Industrial and Fiscal Policy) have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[Mr. P. Snowden.]
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Report of Supply [12th March] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. P. Snowden.]
The House divided: Ayes, 285; Noes, 158.

Division No. 225.]

AYES.

[3.57 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Edmunds, J. E.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Egan, W. H.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

Eimley, Viscount

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

England, Colonel A.

Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

Alpass, J. H.

Foot, Isaac

Kelly, W. T.

Ammon, Charles George

Forgan, Dr. Robert

Kennedy, Thomas

Angell, Norman

Freeman, Peter

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Arnott, John

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Kinley, J.

Aske, Sir Robert

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

Kirkwood, D.

Ayles, Walter

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Knight, Holford

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Moiton)

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Gibbins, Joseph

Lang, Gordon

Barnes, Alfred John

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Batey, Joseph

Gill, T. H.

Lathan, G.

Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

Gillett, George M.

Law, Albert (Bolton)

Bellamy, Albert

Glassey, A. E.

Law, A. (Rosendale)

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Gossling, A. G.

Lawrence, Susan

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Gould, F.

Lawile, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

Benson, G.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Bentham, Dr. Ethel

Granyille, E.

Leach, W.

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Gray, Milner

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Bilndell, James

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Loes, J.

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Bowen, J. W.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Lindley, Fred W.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Groves, Thomas E.

Lloyd, C. Ellis

Broad, Francis Alfred

Grundy, Thomas W.

Logan, David Gilbert

Brockway, A. Fenner

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Longbottom, A. W.

Bromfield, William

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Longden, F.

Bromley, J.

Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

Lowth, Thomas

Brooke, W.

Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

Lunn, William

Brothers, M.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Harbison, T. J.

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Harbord, A.

McElwee, A.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hardie, George D.

McEntee, V. L.

Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

Harris, Percy A.

McKinlay, A.

Burgess, F. G.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

MacLaren, Andrew

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

Haycock, A. W.

Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

Hayday, Arthur

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Cameron, A. G.

Hayes, John Henry

McShane, John James

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Charieton, H. C.

Henderson, Arthur, Junr, (Cardiff, S.)

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Chater, Daniel

Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

Mansfield, W.

Church, Major A. G.

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

March, S.

Clarke, J. S.

Herriotts, J.

Marcus, M.

Cluse, W. S.

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Markham, S. F.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Marshall, Fred

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Hoffman, P. C.

Mathers, George

Cove, William G.

Hollins, A.

Matters, L. W.

Daggar, George

Hopkin, Daniel

Messer, Fred

Dallas, George

Horrabin, J. F.

Millar, J. D.

Dalton, Hugh

Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

Mills, J. E.

Day, Harry

Hunter, Dr. Joseph

Milner, J.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.

Montaque, Frederick

Devlin, Joseph

Isaacs, George

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Morley, Ralph

Dukes, C.

Johnston, Thomas

Morris-Jones, Dr- J. H. (Denbigh)

Duncan, Charles

Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Ede, James Chuter

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Mort, D. L.

Samuel Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Moses, J. J. H.

Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Motley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Sanders, W. S.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Sandham, E.

Tillett, Ben

Muff, G.

Sawyer, G. F.

Tinker, John Joseph

Muggeridge, H. T.

Scott, James

Toole, Joseph

Murnin, Hugh

Scrymgeour, E.

Tout, W. J.

Noel Baker, P. J.

Sexton, James

Townend, A. E.

Oldfield, J. R.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Turner, B.

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Sherwood, G. H.

Vaughan, D. J.

Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

Shield, George William

Viant, S. P.

Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Walker, J.

Paling, Wilfrid

Shillaker, J. F.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Palmer, E. T.

Shinwell, E.

Watkins, F. C.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Perry, S. F.

Simmons, C. J.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Peters, Dr. Sidney John

Sinkinson, George

Wellock, Wilfred

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Sitch, Charles H.

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Phillips, Dr. Marion

Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

Picton-Tubervill, Edith

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

West, F. R.

Pole, Major D. G.

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Potts, John S.

Smith, H. B Lees (Keighley)

White, H. G.

Price, M. P.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Raynes, W. R.

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Richards, R.

Snell, Harry

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Sorensen, R.

Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Stamford, Thomas W.

Wise, E. F.

Romeril, H. G.

Stephen, Campbell

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

Rowson, Guy

Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Strauss, G. R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

Sullivan, J.

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Sutton, J. E.

William Whiteley.

NOES.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Albery, Irving James

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

Long, Major Eric

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Lymington, Viscount

Atholl, Duchess of

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

McConnell, Sir Joseph

Atkinson, C.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Duckworth, G. A. V.

MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Marjoribanks, E. C.

Balniel, Lord

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Meller, R. J.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Beaumont, M. W.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mond, Hon. Henry

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Ferguson, Sir John

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

Berry, Sir George

Fermoy, Lord

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Betterton, Sir Henry B.

Fison, F. G. Clavering

Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ford, Sir P. J.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Boyce, H. L.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Bracken, B.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Peake, Captain Osbert

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Penny, Sir George

Briscoe, Richard George

Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Purbrick, R.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Ramsbotham, H.

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

Butler, R. A.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Reynolds, Col. Sir James

Carver, Major W. H.

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Cattle Stewart, Earl of

Hammersley, S. S.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hanbury, C.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hartington, Marquess of

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Haslam, Henry C.

Salmon, Major I.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Chapman, Sir S.

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Savery, S. S.

Christie, J. A.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hurd, Percy A.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Iveagh, Countess of

Skelton, A. N.

Colfox, Major William Philip

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Colman, N. C. D.

Lamb, Sir J. Q. S

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Colville, Major D. J.

Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

Smithers, Waldron

Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Somerset, Thomas

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Liewellin, Major J. J.

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

1502

1503

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Spender-Clay, Colonal H.

Turton, Robert Hugh

Womersley, W. J.

Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Wayland, Sir William A.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

Tinne, J. A.

Wells, Sydney R.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Todd, Capt. A. J.

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Major Sir George Hennessy and

Train, J.

Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

Sir Frederick Thomson.

BILLS REPORTED.

  LIVERPOOL CORPORATION (NO. 1) BILL (CERTIFIED BILL).
  Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December.

  EAST SURREY WATER BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  CHESTER WATER BILL (CERTIFIED BILL).
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December.

  LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (No. 1) BILL (CERTIFIED BILL).
  Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, pursuant to the Order of the House of 11th December.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (BARRY AND SCARBOROUGH) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  SEVERN FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the widening of the existing pier in and adjoining the Urban District of Clacton, in the County of Essex; and for other purposes." [Clacton-on-Sea Pier Bill [Lords] (Certified Bill).]
CLACTON-ON-SEA PIER BILL [LORDS] (CERTIFIED BILL).
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
COAL MINES (WASHING AND DRYING ACCOMMODATION) BILL.
Order for Second Reading To-morrow read, and discharged: Bill withdrawn.

UNEMPLOYMENT (INDUSTRIAL AND FISCAL POLICY).
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: I beg to move,
"That this House deplores the depression in trade and the increase in unemployment resulting from the policy of the present Government, and regrets the refusal of the Government not only to extend Safeguarding or Imperial Preference but even to declare their intentions with regard to the maintenance of the existing Safeguarding and McKenna Duties and duties on sugar, silk, and key industries, thereby increasing uncertainty and distress."
I rise to move the Motion which stands in my name and that of my right hon. Friend, but, before I begin what I have to say upon it, I should like to tell the House that I have just learnt that it is the silver wedding day of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I should like to express the hope that he may find it convenient to go home to dinner to-night, and to wish him—I think I may say it on behalf of all sections of the House—many years of happiness.
This Debate to-day is in some measure complementary to the Debate which took place on Monday, the recollection of which will be fresh in our memory. The Liberal party dealt with unemployment, not in connection with duties or tariffs. That was specifically stated by their leader, who, we thought, had come to curse, but who, we found, had remained to bless, and there was no Division. Today, we desire a Division. The leader of the Liberal party—I regret very much that he is not well enough to be here today—said that to-day we should once more descend into the old fiscal crater, and he prophesied an explosion, but of the nature of that explosion he said nothing. What interests me much more is who will be blown up in it. That, time alone will show.
I wish it were possible to discuss many of the aspects of unemployment, but I think, perhaps, within the terms of the Motion, we have as much as will occupy us for an afternoon and an evening. I would like, if I may be excused, just to state my own position, that I am not and never have been a panic-monger, that I do regard the situation as one of extreme gravity, and I do consider that that gravity has been increased in the last few months of the Government's progress.
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I agree entirely with the view put forward by Mr. Keynes in a letter in today's paper, that we are passing through a period of painful re-adjustment. Of that re-adjustment it will not be possible to say much to-day, but I just wished to make my own position on the main question clear before I proceeded any further. As the leader of the Liberal party said on Monday, during that discussion the question of any duties, either particular duties or general duties, was ruled out. What we wish to learn from this Debate to-day—and I am seeking it once again and for the last time from the right hon. Gentleman before we are obscured by the heats and fames of Debate—is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make it quite clear to the House, for himself and for his party, whether or not he intends at any time in combating the evils of unemployment to have recourse either to any single duties or to any general duties.
That is, I think, really the essential point between us, and that is the point on which, I think, all parties would like to have clear and emphatic information. I ask the question, not that I am in serious doubt about the result, but I have noticed that while the party opposite have shown the greatest disinclination at any time to consider a duty or a tariff, yet there have been signs of incipient struggle to get out of the strait-waistcoat of the political economy of their grandfathers. I have noticed it all through the Coal Bill, which Bill, economically, is Protection run mad. I have noticed it in speeches that were made during the Election, when some people, with or without authority, advocated prohibition—a far mere dangerous form of Protection than any duty that can be imposed on any article. I have noticed it again in the lifetime of the present Parliament, when men of great ability and influence in their party have discussed, and almost proposed, systems of regulating imports of foodstuffs, and setting up controlling import boards, which, again, is at strange variance with much of the teaching upon which many of us have been brought up for many years past.
When I see the struggles, and when I ask myself how it is that the parties opposite, of all the parties bearing their name in the whole world, will try every

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form of remedy, even in extreme times such as we are passing through now, except the remedy of a duty or duties, I cast about for a solution of that view, and the only explanation I can find—and I believe there is a great deal in it—is that the Labour party is a young party, and its leaders, even its most influential leaders, are men who were brought up in mid-Victorian Liberalism. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself comes from the West Riding of Yorkshire, a constituency more nearly associated with the great struggles of Mr. Cobden's time than any constituency in this country, one the winning of which put the coping-stone on the labours of the Anti-Corn Law League, and one in the name of which money was poured out for years like water. That mid-Victorian Liberalism, which left its mark on all the latter part of the last century, and which still exists here and there on the benches below the Gangway, was largely begotten in its economic views out of the classical economists who, in the early years of the century, put the coping-stone on the work of Adam Smith in destroying the mercantilism of the Whig party of the 18th century.
The elder Mill and Ricardo and Malthus have indeed left a deeper mark on the thought of the country than almost any three men who ever lived. They were men of remarkable ability in elucidating many difficult questions of economic and of social theory, but when they are taken as practical guides in practical life, no three men are more misleading for us to follow. I always think—and there is a great deal of foundation for my view—that many of the worst evils of the whole industrial system may he traced to the work of those three men, and the interpretation of that work when it got into popular circles and was expanded and expounded throughout the country, and I will tell the House exactly what I mean.
They began their work at the most critical time of the industrial revolution, and at that time there were no regulations, as you know, of any kind in labour. The system was new, it was untried, and no man knew the direction in which the country was going with such appalling speed. There has lingered among the working classes, who at that time were not educated, a tradition, subconscious,
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but none the less there, the tradition of the old Elizabethan doctrine which lingered in the beginning of the last century, that it was a rightful charge on the State to protect the interests of the poor labourer.
Now the economists would have none of that. That had to give way, with all the mercantilism of the Whigs. They were out for a clean sweep, and that went; and not only did it go, but they denounced the working classes for their ignorance in clinging to these old, worn-out theories, and they warned them as to the results of what they called their short-sighted folly when they pressed for the things which they wanted at that time, such as inspection and supervision of factories and things like that, that we accept to-day as everyday occurrences; and the whips that they used to scourge them with were the theory of the wages fund and the Malthusian theory of population. In the attainment of absolute laisser faire, they considered only the piling up of wealth, either, on the one hand, of the individual or the wider consideration of the national interest, and the national interest and the interest of the individual have to be considered equally with the piling up of wealth. At that time—and it is a curious thing to think of—the economists were in the position of men who were giving the logical and the intellectual support to the nascent capitalism of the time. They did the propaganda work for capitalism, and they thought, the capitalists of that time, that it was their right to enjoy perfectly free play; and that right became in practice an excuse for neglecting their duty.
A very curious feature of that is this, that the economists of that time got a kind of intellectual domination over the House of Commons. It is a terrible thing when intellectuals get loose. I am not an intellectual. I always start on the presumption that an intellectual is wrong until I am convinced by argument that he is right. Now in the House of Commons, after the Napoleonic wars, you will find that for many years nothing was done, nothing was attempted, in the direction of regulating labour, not because there were not men there who would not have taken that cause up with eagerness, but because the House of Commons was so impressed by the skill, the ability, and the intellectual

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power of the many gentlemen who told them that, if they took any steps of that kind, it could only result in the ruin of the country. It is a curious instance of that intellectual pride which I am not aware you will find in any other form of scholarship, but you do find it surviving to this day in economics. I was told only last week that no man of intellect in this country, no educated man, could possibly be anything else but a Free Trader.
Now intellectual pride is a very dangerous thing, and I think we ought to remember this. It is a commonplace thought, but I wonder if all the Members on the benches opposite have reflected on it when they have studied economics. If you separate economic from all other facts, you get an abstraction, and, if you forget that economic factors, when abstracted in that way, have no separate existence of their own, you are very apt to get into the way of ignoring the consideration of human beings and of nationalities, you are very apt, in applying your inferences to practical life, to get into very strange morasses; and it is a morass of that kind that I believe this country is getting into to-day. We have to get out of it.
The precepts of the economists are based, as very often things are based in mathematics, on hypotheses, but a hypothesis, from the nature of the case, is only a temporary expedient unless the foundations on which that hypothesis is built continue and last. A hypothesis based on certain conditions and in consonance with certain times gets superseded, and superseded quickly, and yet the inferences drawn from those hypotheses are often quoted as if the hypotheses were still valid. I will give one instance. There is a well-known passage that will occur to most of you. John Stuart Mill wrote this sentence:
"In countries in which the system of Protection is declining, but is not yet wholly given up, such as—"
Such as what?
"the United States of America."
Just imagine the value of the inferences drawn from that hypothesis. They are not worth the paper they are written on, and yet many inferences of that kind are allowed to influence men's minds even
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now, in the second quarter of the Twentieth Century. The extraordinary thing to me is that the Labour party, who in so many ways would call themselves a party of internationalism, international interests, international study, international friendship, and all the rest, in this one matter of economies are insular to a degree, insular in their thought, insular in their action, and insular in their pride, of which I will say a word or two by and by. But it is that very insularity that has sent the President of the Board of Trade, for whom we all have a great regard, for his candour, his straightforwardness, and, I may add, his innocence, on a hopeless errand at this moment.
I often remind myself of what a distinguished economist and man of the world wrote a good many years ago now, but the words he wrote, with very trifling alteration, are as true to-day as on the day when they were written, and I think that if the President of the Board of Trade were more familiar with his writings or, if familiar with them, had allowed them to influence him, he might have been saved from a good deal of unnecessary trouble. I refer to Walter Bagehot, a pupil of Ricardo, editor of the "Economist," a man who, if he had been living now, would have been in constant communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he was in his time with Chancellors of the Exchequer of both parties. Bagehot wrote:
"Out of England Free Trade is unpopular."
A very simple statement, but, if you realise that, you do not go to propose tariff truces in Geneva. He said:
"English political economy is known on the Continent as the theory of Free Trade,"
and he says that when we go trying to persuade other countries to copy our example in Free Trade, they speak somewhat as follows—and I quote the words which he puts into their mouth:
"You English traders are strong and rich. You wish to under-sell our traders, who are weak and poor. You have invented this political economy to enrich yourselves and to ruin us. We will see that you do not do so."
That is very simple, and I think it is very necessary not to allow our insularity such play that we fail to realise, not what is always told to us when we go to conferences,

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but what is the underlying feeling throughout the Continent of Europe towards our protestations. That was exactly the same argument that Bismarck used when he began to lay the foundations of the industrial system in Germany after the Franco-German War, and the Continental answer to-day is exactly what the Continental answer was years ago, as given by Thiers in France. "Why do you give this bounty to the French sugar refiners?" he was asked, and he replied, "Because I wish the tall chimneys to smoke." You may think that is bad economics, but the French did not, and their chimneys are smoking still.
That fallacy is always turning up, that theory, believed in England, that what we did must be copied by all the rest of the world. There has hardly been a year in the last 70 or 80 years but we have been told—and it was implied in the speech of the President of the Board of Trade—that if we only wait a little longer, there is a chance of the other nations removing their tariff walls. Giffen, only 30 years ago, said that in another generation there would be no Protectionists left. Giffen was wrong, and the President of the Board of Trade is wrong. They are wrong in very good company, in very intellectual company, but they are wrong all the same. It has often struck me that that kind of insular pride—of which, I confess, I have my full share, and which I have often been very amused to see hon. Members opposite, strongly opposed to me as they are, possess too—comes out in very odd directions. I think it is going, in this way, but certainly it made us feel some years ago, not only that other nations would copy us in removing their duties, but that no other nations could do the things that we were doing.
I remember perfectly well just after I went into business, it was the time when the McKinley Act was passed in America, lots of the men in my works saying, "The Americans will never be able to make tin-plates; their water will not do for it; they cannot handle them." I remember that the same thing was said about the making of steel in America, a few years before. The curious thing was that in America itself there were people who did not believe that America could ever make steel. We have learned
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now that anybody can make anything, given the application of transport, capital and labour; but we did not believe it then. I remember very well—the House will forgive me if I turn aside to tell a very curious little story which illustrates that frame of mind—that years ago, when I was in New York as a young man, I spoke to a man who had been the largest importer of British iron and steel into America, until America made her own. He told me that somewhere about 1878 or 1879—I may be wrong as to a year or two—a little Scotch American went into the office to ask if they would help him with some capital to make steel in America. They turned him down and said, 'You will never be able to make steel in America." That little man was Andrew Carnegie. He got his money from somewhere else, and the steel was made. I think that mode of thought is passing away. I do not think that anyone in this country now denies the general proposition that any country, if it chooses to take the steps, if it chooses to use tariffs, and if it has the capital, can make practically anything that it likes. It may not he advantageous to the country, but the fact remains that it can do that.
The whole tendency in the world today, and I regret it as much as hon. Members opposite, is towards high tariffs. High tariffs are bad, and I think the nations of Europe are realising that they are bad, but how are they going to cure them? They are not going to cure them by pulling down their barriers. That, again, is a mistake of the President of the Board of Trade and others who think like him. They are going to attack them in quite a different way. If I read the signs of the times aright—it may be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be good enough to say a word on this subject—I believe that the way the nations of Europe are approaching this subject is that they are going to try to get rid of the Most-Favoured-Nation Clause, and simultaneously to reduce their own tariffs and reduce competing tariffs by making tariff agreements. I believe that is the whole tendency of the economic life of Europe, and we are left outside it. The House will remember—they are all familiar with it—that Cobden himself was responsible for negotiating a treaty with the French, a valuable treaty, and one of the weapons that he had to use was a weapon bequeathed

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to him by Sir Robert Peel. Peel kept on the Wine Duties so that they could be used for negotiations. That was the reason for keeping them on. When Cobden's Treaty became a fact, many of the purists of that day condemned him because they thought it sinned against the light of orthodox economics. That was not the view that Morley took. In Morley's "Life of Cobden" he regarded it, as the nations of Europe regard it, as a process to bring about the lowering of tariffs. This is what Morley said:
"This Treaty helped forward the process of liberating the exchange of goods."
That is absolutely true. That is the only way in this world, as it is constituted today, that you are going to get any reduction of tariffs. I shall be glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will explain to us whether he thinks there is any other way, in the event of his not being able to ask the House at any time to put on any duty or duties. Does anybody in this House consider that Cobden was a heretic? Was there any taint of economic heresy about Morley? Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer quite sure that there is no taint of heresy on the benches behind him, or, if not on the benches behind him, in his party in the country? These are anxious times for a Chancellor of the Exchequer of orthodox views. There is much happening in the country to shake the confidence of those who would continue to walk in the old paths. We are falling into a similar mistake, or you are falling into a mistake similar to that into which the House of Commons fell after the Napoleonic Wars. We are being hag-ridden by economic doctrine, a most dangerous thing, and I suspect that if there is not an inferiority complex, a most dangerous thing, there is a superiority complex, which is much harder to get rid of than any inferiority complex. At this moment there are four or five problems lying before us that I believe—I will not say they are soluble—can only be approached and helped by judicious utilisation of duties, and I want to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is either prepared to consider exploring that wide field of duties or if, whatever happens to unemployment and industry, that whole side of economic life is to be blotted out as if it had never existed.
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Let us consider for a moment what is called the psychological aspect, which is a real thing. The psychology of business to-day is bad; it is depressed. There is no confidence; there is no hope. Never mind the reasons. Everyone who knows the facts knows that that is so. When men are like that, they want a stimulus. Is it not worth while experimenting with some of the most depressed trades, with duties as a stimulus? Would it not put fresh hope into people? I remember very well discussing this matter with one of the most distinguished of living Free Trade economists. It was in 1924, immediately after I had been beaten in 1923. He said to me, "I believe that what you meant to do by your programme was to give a jolt to industry, to get it out of the rut." I said that that was one of the things I had in view, and he said, with perfect candour, "I believe that you were right in taking the view that it would give a jolt to get it out of the rut, but as a Free Trader I am against duties of any kind." That was said some years ago. We are all moving on. I do not know whether he would say that to-day. He added, "As a Free Trader, taking the long view, I regard the ultimate results of any form of Protection as bringing disadvantages in their train which would prevent me from supporting the imposition of such duties." That was a perfectly fair and candid view, but he admitted the stimulus.
I come for a moment to another question which has been very much before us this last year or two—rationalisation. I need not stop to define that. I cannot speak at length about it, but I am a rationaliser, and I am convinced that this process of readjustment, of which Mr. Keynes spoke, can only be got through by readjustment in the form of rationalisation. Are you quite convinced on that side of the House that when industries are being rationalised, when capital is needed for new plant, those who undertake to rationalise can carry it out without some aid in the direction of duties? Do you not feel that the benefit of a certain security, if only for a time, while these changes are being made, would be a help? Is it not a fact that in countries where they have such security it is a far easier matter to scrap obsolete plant and to erect new plant than it is in this country? Where in

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present conditions is the money to be obtained which is needed in the steel trade, to give only one instance? It cannot be got. Are the Government going to provide it, and if so, on what security, or are we not to trouble our heads about rationalisation at all? Are we to leave it to chance? These are some of the questions which must be considered and to which I would like an answer.
I shall say little more about treaties. Are you convinced by now that the nations of the Continent of Europe are not going to remove any of their Duties, or do you believe that they will? If you believe that they will not, are you never going to use any means that will enable you to make bargains with them, or are you going to leave the countries on the Continent and America to make bargains with each other, that they may sell more freely to each other, and are we to be left out, we who depend more on our industries than any country in the world? Are we alone to be left out of any and every agreement that may be made? Are you satisfied with saying to the nations of Europe, "You may keep your high tariffs, but, if you are willing to make an agreement with us not to raise them, we will make an agreement with you to let all your goods, whatever your hours of labour, whatever your wages, come in free"? Are you satisfied with that? We want to know. I am speaking on tariffs before what the right hon. Gentleman called the heat and the fumes arise. I do not want heat and fumes at this stage. I want us to examine these things, if you like, as a Council of State. I want to know if you are satisfied. If you are, the question falls to the ground, but, if you are not, what do you propose to do?
Let me say a word—and this is another point very pertinent to our Motion—about the Dominions. There is nothing so lamentable as that the Dominions should be brought into our politics [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] In all quarters of the House, on this side, from tradition, and on your side there has been for the last few years—let me put it in this way—a growing knowledge of the Dominions and their capacity, and a growing desire, in some indeterminate way, to keep together. Since the War the Dominions have become for all practical
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purposes autonomous. They are completely autonomous fiscally, and, naturally, they have been asking how far that autonomy goes, some concentrating on it more than others; and it is my view, and I expect the view of all who sit behind me, and no doubt the view of many hon. Members opposite—a view that is shared by thoughtful men of all parties in all the Dominions—that unless something can be constructed in the way of economic co-operation with a view, as I have often said, to the visualisation of the economic unity of the Empire—unless something of the kind, I do not say how, can be envisaged and worked out, there is a real risk that in time the threads that bind us, already gossamer, may break, and with the breaking of those threads there goes the hope of the world for peace and progress.
If you are to attempt in any way economic co-operation, economic unity, I am unable to see any way by which it can be approached, except by utilising—I do not say here in what manner-Duties. I want to know whether you agree with that and, if you do not, what you would propose to do. In our view it is of enormous importance, at this time and in the present conditions of our industry, to try to go forward, if it can be done, hand-in-hand with the Dominions industrially, because that the Dominions are going to industrialise themselves as fast as they can is a certainty. Canada will do it far more quickly than any other. Canada will be one of the greatest countries in the world. But they are all trying, and for no economic theory will they stop. It is a kind of urge that nothing can stop. It behoves us in this House, and all parties, to consider and bring to bear on this problem all the ability that we have, to see if there be a solution, and, if there be, what that solution is. But in that solution lies one of the contributory solutions of our own troubles at home.
There is another point on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) will have more to say to-night, and that is the question of the uncertainty in which special trades are at this moment, owing to the refusal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say definitely whether he will or will not continue the Duties applicable

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to them. I do not suppose that anyone will lay down in this House that uncertainty, founded on whatever reason, is a good thing for business. I always remember a saying of Lord Melchett when he was a Free Trader. He said, "Business can flourish with tariffs. Business can flourish without tariffs. Business cannot flourish where there is uncertainty." That is absolutely true. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer once more whether he is prepared to put certainty in the place of uncertainty before a number of business men who are not having an easy time at present, who are anxious, who are worried about the future, and for the conduct of whose business definite information is required?
The Prime Minister gave me an answer a day or two ago that the opinion of the House would be tested by the. Division after this Debate. I am well aware of that, and to-night, with the aid of your allies, you will win. But I can tell you this: That just as rain washed away the Corn Laws, so unemployment will wash away this Government, wrapt as it is in the consciousness of its own virtue, hidebound in an absolescent economic theory—it will sweep it right away, and for this reason: They would rather see the unemployment figures mounting up week by week than acknowledge for a moment that they have been wrong.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): The right hon. Gentleman and the whole House will accept my gratitude for the kindly references made to me. It is an illustration of one of the best features of British political life that we do not permit the acerbities of political controversy to interfere with our personal relations. I have been asked by the Prime Minister to express his regret that he is not able to be here at this stage of the Debate, on account of important meetings of the Naval Conference. He had hoped to be able to come, and he still hopes that it may be possible for him to be present some time during the afternoon or evening. I am sure that the House will understand and excuse him in the circumstances.
We have listened to a most interesting speech, a speech characterised by evidence
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of wide historical knowledge of economic theories; but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not think that I detract from the interest and importance of that speech if I say that it has very little relation to the terms of the Motion that he has moved. I would like to remind the House of the origin of this Vote of Censure. They may remember that on 20th February, three weeks ago, I made an announcement of the date of the introduction of the Budget, and I took the unusual course of promising to introduce the Budget at an early date because of the anxiety which was alleged to exist in regard to the possible fate of certain Duties. After I had announced the date the right hon. Gentleman rose and put this question: Whether I adhered to my resolution to make no statement as to my intention with regard to the Safeguarding and McKenna Duties until 14th April. I replied to that, and I ask the House particularly to notice what I said. I stated that that question would have been very unusual a few months ago, and that I certainly must adhere to the statement that I could make no disclosure as to my intentions before the Budget was introduced.
The right hon. Gentleman admitted that he was innocent. He is indeed guileless. Not in vain is the snare spread in front of him. I deliberately said that that question would have been unusual a few months ago. The right hon. Gentleman ran straight into the trap that I had laid. "I quite agree," he said, "that a few months ago it would have been unnecessary, because the state of employment did not make that statement necessary." Then he gave notice of this Vote of Censure. The right hon. Gentleman had evidently forgotten that the principal Amendment to the King's Speech was moved on his behalf, and that it dealt with the very complaint that he made in that supplementary question. He said three weeks ago that a few months ago it would not have been necessary, because the state of employment did not make a statement necessary. What were the terms of the Amendment that was moved nearly eight months ago—not a few months ago? They were.
"But humbly represent to your Majesty that the failure of Your Majesty's Ministers to make any plain declaration of their policy in regard to the Safeguarding, McKenna and

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analogous Duties, and to the maintenance of Imperial Preference, creates a condition of uncertainty prejudicial to trade and to the employment of the people."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th July, 1929; col. 529, Vol. 229.]
But the right hon. Gentleman said three weeks ago that even a few months ago that uncertainty did not exist—that there was nothing for which I at any rate was responsible, which was having a prejudicial effect. We were given to understand that that, and that alone, was to be the purpose of the right hon. Gentleman this evening in the Vote of Censure. It was to be directed to my unwillingness to anticipate the Budget by making a statement in regard to my intentions on these duties.
5.0 p.m.
The Motion is divided into three parts. The right hon. Gentleman has devoted himself almost wholly to one part of it, that which condemns the Government because they will not introduce Safeguarding Duties and extend Imperial Preference. With that I will deal later, but as he says the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) is to indict me later in the Debate in regard to the other point, and I shall have no opportunity of replying to him, I will anticipate by answering that complaint. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer on one or two occasions has expressed in rather strong language his condemnation of my reticence. It has been ascribed to spitefulness, arrogance, ignorance and impudence. I do not object to the right hon. Gentleman's language. Indeed, I rather like it. It is only pretty Fanny's way. Words do not worry me. They break no bones. It is no part of my case that uncertainty does not exist. It is no part of my case that pessimism is not in operation. It is a fact that ever since this Government came into office there has been an organised conspiracy. It has been the deliberate policy of certain interests to create financial and business uncertainty and to create unemployment in order to discredit the Government. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal gave one instance two or three days ago. A few weeks ago the Federation of British Industries issued a most alarming manifesto, full of pessimism, and calculated to increase whatever feeling of despondency there might be, and containing statements which were quite inaccurate. The
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Government's Unemployment Bill has been the subject of a sustained Press campaign charging the Government with shovelling out money.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Hear, hear!
Mr. SNOWDEN: The right hon. Gentleman, at any rate, need not complain about shovelling out money. For five years he has been an expert in that adventure. When the Estimates for the Civil Departments came out the other day there were great headlines in the newspapers, wholly misleading and wholly inaccurate, attributing to the Government an increase of expenditure next year above this year of £50,000,000 or £60,000,000. Day after day certain newspapers in the country for months have been spreading this feeling of pessimism abroad. I repeat that there has been this deliberate conspiracy on the part of certain interests to discredit the Government. I have seen for months now that, with increasing violence every day, a Protectionist ramp has been going on. Stories about the closing down of factories and the standing off of men have been appearing daily, attributing the whole of the increase in unemployment to the action and policy of the Government, and particularly in regard to my own personal responsibility in regard to certain duties.
The Motion attributes the undoubted increase in unemployment to three things, not extending Safeguarding and Imperial Preference, our refusal to declare our intentions in regard to these matters and, thirdly, to my own refusal to disclose my Budget intentions. If the latter has had any influence at all in regard to unemployment, it could not at the worst have had more than an infinitesimal influence, because only 3 per cent. of the workers are employed in these safeguarded trades. We had a general debate on Monday upon unemployment. I am not going to travel over tie road traversed on that occasion, I shall confine myself to saying that there are three main causes of the present abnormal state of unemployment, for not one of which is the Government responsible. The first is the relative over-production of primary commodities, the second is the American crash, and we are now reaping the consequences of the inaction of the late Government who for five years dammed up the process of post-war reconstruction.

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They precipitated one of the greatest industrial conflicts we have had. They shovelled out £24,000,000 or £25,000,000 to the coal industry, which was sheer waste, and they did nothing whatever to help its economic reorganisation.
I could add another reason for the uncertainty and trade depression that exists, by no means an unimportant one. The late Prime Minister again quoted Lord Melchett's saying that trade cannot flourish with uncertainty. What was the late Government doing for five years—leaving all the great industries of the country in a state of uncertainty, leading them to believe that they might get the artificial aid of Protection, preventing them from reorganising themselves. For a great part of that time the iron and steel trade was asking the Government for Protection. It was refused. I gather from what the right hon. Gentleman said to-day that the industry now is to be encouraged to rationalise by the imposition of a heavy tariff on imported steel. Exactly the same with the woollen trade. For five years the wool trade in the West Riding of Yorkshire was kept in a state of uncertainty by the late Government. They made application for a duty. A Committee spent a long time in investigating the application, but nothing happened. So it has been with a great many other trades and that, I submit, is one of the most important contributory causes of the present trade depression.
The second part proposes to condemn us because we will not extend Safeguarding. I will leave that for the moment and will pass to that part, to which I have already made a passing reference, that complains of the refusal of the Government to declare its intentions with regard to the McKenna, Safeguarding and Sugar Duties. That complaint is just about as well informed as the right hon. Gentleman was when he put that supplementary question to me three weeks ago. Now we will have some facts about it There is no ambiguity about our policy whatever. On the first day the Government met Parliament the right hon. Gentleman asked the Prime Minister about Safeguarding. My right hon. Friend replied, first, that no further applications for Safeguarding would be considered; second, that the existing duties
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would expire at the appointed dates; and, third, that the Budget policy would be declared at the right time. There is no ambiguity about that.
A week later the right hon. Gentleman put down the Amendment the terms of which I have already quoted. In the autumn, representations began to come in which showed that it was recognised that I would not depart from the invariable rule about not anticipating the Budget, but traders were afraid—they were rather uneasy in regard to duty-paid stocks in the event of the duties being removed. I took the very unusual course of satisfying their uncertainty by making a statement which was without precedent. I made it in the House of Commons a day or two before Christmas, and that was accepted by the people who had made these representations to me as being completely satisfactory.
Mr. REMER: No.
Mr. SNOWDEN: It was accepted by the people who had made those representations to me as completely meeting their representations, but, of course, I know that that did not satisfy them in regard to the fate of the duties. Since the beginning of the year the campaign has become more intense, and the demand that I should anticipate the Budget has been made with increasing vehemence. Allegations have been made, not only in this House, but again in the Press, that trade has been held up, workmen have been discharged, and that there is a general paralysis of industry owing to my action, or inaction. I say that it is no part of my case to prove that there is not uncertainty. It is no part of my case to prove that uncertainty in regard to these duties is having no effect upon these industries. On the contrary, such uncertainty as may exist, whatever injury is being done to trade, is inseparable from a Protectionist policy, and it is one of the strongest condemnations that if you have Protection you can never remove that uncertainty of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke. Has it removed it in America? Why, at this very moment, with a Tariff Bill before the Senate, the industries affected by it are holding back. The Minister of Labour in America says that the increase of unemployment is largely due to the uncertainty in regard to the Tariff Bill. The more the party

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opposite can prove that there is uncertainty about these duties, the more they are condemning their Protectionist ideals. But what I do deny is that this uncertainty is mainly responsible for the general state of uncertainty, because, as I have said, only a very few industries are affected by it. It is simply being used as an excuse to hide the fundamental causes of the state of these industries and the tragic failure of Protection.
What are the facts? As I said just now, uncertainty is not confined to this country. Wherever you have Protection you have it. I have noticed that this agitation has been confined wholly to two of these duties—the Motor Duties and the Artificial Silk Duties.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Not artificial silk—silk.
Mr. SNOWDEN: And artificial silk. Why has the party opposite neglected the interests of other McKenna and Safeguarding Duties? What have they got to say, for instance, about the state of trade in Jews' harps, and popguns, and mechanical donkeys? All these industries—these key industries—are protected under the McKenna Duties. Precisely the campaign which was carried on at the time of the repeal of the McKenna Duties in 1924 is being carried on to-day. There appeared on the 20th February in many of the leading provincial newspapers a report by an investigator into the effect of the uncertainty in regard to these duties on the motor industry, and this is what he said:
"If the Chancellor of the Exchequer keeps to his secret, within four weeks from to-day 60,000 men who are employed this week will be thrown on the dole and the remaining 170,000 subject to a reduction of wages."
That is nearly four weeks ago. What are the facts? Have 60,000 men been thrown upon the dole? Have 170,000 men been subjected to reduced earnings? I may say that in the very next sentence in this report the 60,000 became 80,000. Then he goes on to say that:
"in two years 125,000 men will be thrown out of work."
These are very moderate statements in relation to the statements which were made in 1924 when Mr. Morris said that the repeal of the McKenna Duties would throw 4,000,000 men out of employment. The "Daily Mail" was, as usual, much more moderate and reserved in its figures.
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It put them only at 2,000,000. The "Morning Post" and a number of other papers have joined in this lying propaganda which is always the stock-in-trade of the Protectionist. In regard to some of these trades, I have received a very large number of post cards and they are very interesting. The actual communications are all written in the same handwriting, while the address is typewritten. The handwriting is rather illiterate, and the written communication asks me not to repeal the McKenna Duties. The workman evidently had a typewriter, for the address is typewritten. On the 13th February this telegram was sent to us by the Rover Company:
"At a meeting of nearly 250 Rover agents at our works yesterday it was the unanimous opinion that the public were delaying the placing of orders for motor cars by reason of the uncertainty of the Government action with regard to the McKenna Duties and the horse-power tax. If the uncertainty continues, it will be necessary for us to discharge 50 per cent. of our employés within the next few days due to lack of orders."
Now that is just a month ago. Have those men been discharged? Has 50 per cent. of their workmen been discharged? It is simply an attempt at intimidation of the Government by intimidating their workpeople, who, I am glad to say from abundant evidence which I have received, repudiate this form of intimidation. Not only does this telegram demand the retention of the McKenna Duties, but unless we will also alter the basis of motor taxation 50 per cent. of their workpeople are to be discharged. Did they send a threat of that kind to the right hon. Gentleman before the last Budget saying that unless he altered the motor taxation from the horse-power to a petrol duty 50 per cent. of their workmen would be discharged? When he imposed a duty of 4d. a gallon on petrol did he get telegrams from employers of labour—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"]—telling him, threatening him, that unless he removed it 50 per cent. of their workmen would be discharged?
What are the facts with regard to employment in the motor industry? In September last, three months after the right hon. Gentleman had said that the trade was being held up because of uncertainty in regard to these duties employment was being increased. Three months later there was less unemployment

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in Coventry than there was three months before. The Minister of Labour gave an answer in regard to employment in the motor industry last week, and on 27th January this year there were 788 fewer unemployed in the motor industry than in October of last year. Yesterday we had in the "Daily Express," which, I suppose may now be regarded as the official organ of the Tory party, an article headed "Revival in Motor-Car Industry." This is what it said:
"There is every indication of the turning of the tide after a long period of depression, throughout the motor car industry."
And then:
"Salesmen smiled yesterday for the first time for months. 'Our sales,' said one of the leading car distributors 'exceeded those of last Tuesday by as much as 50 per cent.' A director of Morris' says 'There has been a steady stream of orders throughout the day. We must thank the sun for that."
I understand that, in fact, the Morris firm are now taking on additional men.
Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
HON. MEMBERS: Sit down!
Mr. SNOWDEN: This is a Debate.
Mr. CHURCHILL: You have not been interrupted before; the hon. and gallant Gentleman is a Member of long standing in this House.
Mr. SNOWDEN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has such an established position in this House upon this subject that it is perfectly certain he will be called upon in the course of the Debate to say what he has to say. In regard to artificial silk it is much the same story, but, before I say much about that, may I just refer to a statement which was made by Mr. Courtauld at a meeting last week? He said that I had refused to see him, but that is not true. Last autumn he asked if I would see him and a friend. I was unable to do so that week, but, having heard that before the Budget of last year the artificial silk interests had, I will not say, made an application, but intimated their desire for increased protection, I said, "Well, if this is what Mr. Courtauld wants to see me about, it is no use his coming, but will you ask him to tell me what he wants to put before me?" He never made any further request
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to see me. His representatives, and other representatives of the trade, were given an interview by the Customs, and the only question they raised was that of a rebate on duty-paid stocks. Mr. Courtauld seems to have associated himself with this raging campaign, and when he faced his shareholders last week he made an attack on me. It is a pity he did not get someone to overhaul his speech before it was delivered, and before it was given such a costly publicity in the newspapers. In the early part of his speech he attributed the deplorable state of the industry to Budget uncertainty. He seems to have forgotten his speech of a year before. What did he say 12 months ago? He did not anticipate a very good year for the artificial silk trade, and he said:
"The picture I have to put before you is a very mixed one, and indefinite as to the future. We started 1928 under good conditions, with steady sales, and a possibility of increased production, though you may remember my pointing out at our last meeting that it was impossible for turnover to increase in 1928 as it bad done the year before … We could not forecast the course of business beyond August, and that this course would be mainly determined by the weight of new production which might be put on the market in the Autumn … In England and Europe generally this difficult time has certainly arrived again, production has overtaken consumption and the inevitable consequences have followed; loss of confidence on the part of buyers, curtailment of orders, a lowering of prices all round, and widespread dislocation of business from which we have not yet recovered."
That was 12 months ago. Last week Mr. Courtauld attributed the depression in the artificial silk industry to the uncertainty in regard to the Silk Duties. Take his own company. In 1929, during the six months before this Government came into office, the shares of his company had been gradually falling, and they continued to fall afterwards at much about the same rate as they had been falling before the Government came into office. Was that due to Budget uncertainty? The shares of his company last year fell from about £5 to a little over £2. Am I the cause of that? Is that Budget uncertainty? Was this also due to Budget uncertainty? The first full year after the right hon. Gentleman opposite imposed the Artificial Silk Duties, the profits of Courtauld fell from £5,110,000 in the previous year, a Free Trade year, to £3,240,000. Is that due to Budget uncertainty?

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The rest of Mr. Courtauld's speech was the real explanation of the cause of the slump in the artificial silk trade. He attributed it to over-production. Is that Budget uncertainty? It is the true explanation.
In view of certain things which have been said I am going to say some rather disagreeable things—not disagreeable except to those to whom I find it necessary to reply. During the last 10 days it has been reported in the newspapers that certain artificial silk mills have closed down, and on the 1st of this month the "Burton Daily Mail," of which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Gretton) has some knowledge, came out with a big heading across the page, "Mr. Snowden closes down Branston factory." Underneath, in somewhat smaller type, it says, "Budget uncertainty holds up production." What are the facts? This company in April last year had a cash balance of about £300,000. On 30th September this had been reduced to £198,000, and in October of last year that £198,000 cash balance had disappeared. It had been spent in buying the shares of the Kirkless Artificial Silk Company. That was a small concern at Bury, in Lancashire, and its prosperity under Protection, at any rate, had been such that it had changed hands, or undergone reconstruction, three times in the last few years. It was bought in October by this Branston company, and they paid for the shares with the whole of their cash in hand. I understand that the price they paid was over 23s. a share. At that time these shares had no real market quotation, and they certainly were not worth more than 3s. at the outside. That got this company into serious financial difficulties, and it had to make arrangements with the Burton Corporation with regard to its rates and electricity supply. They also borrowed a certain sum of money, after they had depleted their cash reserves, from insurance companies. That is the position of this company. They have been compelled to close down because of their financial mismanagement, and now it is Mr. Snowden who has closed down this factory. The notice issued by the directors says:
"The directors greatly regret that it has been found necessary, owing to the falling off of the demand for Rayon and the uncertainty
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felt by users as to the continuance of the imported silk duties, to stop production temporarily."
A year ago there appeared a statement that a factory at Tongueland, in Kirkcudbrightshire, had closed down owing to Budget uncertainty. The facts I am now giving have a two-fold significance. They prove that Budget uncertainty is not responsible for the state of these industries, and they prove, at the same time, what is far more important from the public point of view, the effect, the disastrous effect, which Protection has had upon these industries.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Financial mismanagement.
Mr. SNOWDEN: Encouraged by Protection. Take the case of the British Acetate Silk Corporation. It showed a loss up to the end of September of £196,000. Surely that was not due to Budget uncertainty. Then the Rayon Manufacturing Company lost £15,700 before there was any Budget uncertainty. The Scottish Amalgamated Silk industry, another protected concern, lost £34,000 up to August of last year, surely not due to Budget uncertainty. The Scottish Artificial Silk Company lost £72,000, and in this figure is included £38,000 for the Tongueland factory. There was then no Budget uncertainty. These cases prove that it is not Budget uncertainty which is responsible, but the encouragement which has been given to over-production and the starting of new works which is mainly responsible. Mr. Courtauld said that it would be a financial calamity if the Duties were taken off. I should attach more importance to that statement if it was not exactly what Mr. Courtauld said when the Duties were imposed. But the gem of this Motion is the inclusion of sugar. I am asked to declare my intentions with regard to sugar. I have a letter from the Federation of Food Manufacturers to this effect:
"I wish to assure you that we have no desire to threaten by quoting possible unemployment or to ask you for what we regard as unreasonable, that you should in the vaguest manner anticipate your Budget statement."
Suppose I were to accede to this demand and anticipate the statement. Has it ever been done before?
Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) in 1921.
Mr. SNOWDEN: Yes. That is exactly what I wanted. It is quite true that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham did upon one occasion announce a Budget intention, but in what words? He was speaking to his own constituents in West Birmingham at some public gathering, and I think he said:
"I am going to make long in advance of the usual time, to you and through you to my countrymen, some statement as to the Budget of next year. (Applause.) I hope that the precedent which I set will not be followed by anyone."
[Interruption.] I do not want to follow up that point, although I could say a great deal about it. As a matter of fact the right hon. Gentleman was referring to the repeal of the Excess Profits Duty which was purely a War tax, and the right hon. Gentleman's announcement made no difference whatever to the yield of the tax because the assessments had already been made. Therefore, it could have no disastrous effect upon revenue. But what I am asked to do is to make an announcement in regard to Duties which are coming in every day. If I were to do that, what would be the result? Supposing that I had announced last July that I intended to repeal the Sugar Duty—what would have been the result? I believe the price of sugar is cheap to-day. It would not have been cheap if I had made that announcement. What would have happened? There would have been no clearances; there would have been a panic in sugar, and the price would have gone up to a mountainous height and I should have lost six months' revenue. That applies to all these other Duties. No Chancellor of the Exchequer can say, until the end of the financial year, what he is going to do in regard to the alteration of taxes. If I had at the end of this month a disposable surplus of £50,000,000 I should do something very different to what I should do if I had to meet the right hon. Gentleman's deficit of £50,000,000.
It is quite impossible to think that you can anticipate the Budget, tout there are more serious objections. For nearly 100 years the sole criterion in imposing taxation has been the needs of the Exchequer. What are we asked to do? Every previous Chancellor of the Exchequer has framed his Budget on the facts of the financial situation as disclosed in the out turn of the year.
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Now this Tory demand means that our finances are not to be governed by financial considerations. They are to be governed by extraneous demands. They want us to go back to the old Protectionist practice. The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon has spoken about shibboleths and about the ideas of our grandfathers, but he asks us to go back to the ideas and to the practice of our great grandfathers. In those days, in the days before the repeal of the Corn Laws, taxes were imposed—as the party opposite now want them to be imposed—not to meet the needs of the State but to meet the selfish interests of manufacturers. What this part of the Motion means is that the financial policy of the nation is to be subordinated to the vested interests which were created by the Tory party in the last Parliament. Let us try to imagine what would happen if the policy of the party opposite were carried out and every industry in the country were protected. For six months or nine months before the Budget you would have hundreds or thousands of trades doing what a few trades are doing to-day, and politics would become a sink of corruption. It may suit the party opposite to have the time of Parliament taken up by tariff discussions, but some of us want to get on with much more important business. In support of what I have just said may I quote the authority of a very eminent Protectionist who said:
"There is one evil of the Protectionist system which no one who understands the question can warn you against too strongly and that is that you create thousands of vested interests which are more baneful to the community than the great liquor interest, A Member represents not his constituency but his industry, and men are in Parliament not for politics but for business."
If, then, you want to subordinate the finances of the country to vested interests, you must take Protection. If you want to keep industry in a chronic state of unrest, adopt the latest policy of the right hon. Gentleman opposite—thoroughgoing Protection. This Motion asks us to extend Safeguarding. I admire the effrontery of such a demand. The right hon. Gentleman made this question the main issue at the last Election. He came down to the West Riding of Yorkshire, within a few miles of my constituency, and addressed two meetings, and the only subject upon which he spoke was Safeguarding, with the result that every constituency in the West Riding of Yorkshire

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gave an overwhelming Free Trade vote. The right hon. Gentleman, as I say, has devoted the greater part of his speech to the question of Protection but he gave us no outline of his own policy in regard to it. At one time he did give a sort of implication when he made some reference to the importance of trying to encourage, promote and increase trade and economic relations between the different parts of the British Empire. He may make up his mind that you cannot do that unless you are prepared to put a tax upon food and imported raw material.
Mr. S. BALDWIN: I must interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. I never implied anything of the kind. The mistake is a perfectly natural one for the right hon. Gentleman to make because, in past conflicts these matters have been so closely associated, but when I made those allusions I was considering industrial arrangements and industrial arrangements only.
Mr. SNOWDEN: The right hon. Gentleman now sees what he himself describes as the not unnatural interpretation that might be placed upon his words, and he is anxious, it appears, at the moment not to commit himself definitely to the taxation of food. That I can quite understand. The right hon. Gentleman cannot at present commit himself definitely to anything. He must first of all consult Lord Beaverbrook or take a national Referendum. One thing I will say to my hon. Friends behind me here. This is the inwardness and the aim of the present-day Protectionist movement. It is a far-sighted attempt to reduce wages—real wages—and to increase the cost of commodities and the profits of the protected manufacturers. I believe there is not a single one of the industries which have received Protection during the last five years where wages have risen. Certainly it is not true that they have risen in the pottery trade and I understand from a reply to a question given the other day, that the same remark applies to the motor industry. The right hon. Gentleman has asked me to say what we intend to do in regard to Protection. We intend to carry out the mandate that we received from the country. Free Traders have always admitted that you might benefit a particular
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industry by Protection at a particular period but that you do it at the expense of other industries and of the general good. What has surprised me about the safeguarded industries at present is that that has not turned out to be the fact. You cannot point to any advantage which has come to these industries with the application of Protection. Why, the most prosperous year which the motor industry in this country ever had was the 12 months during which the duties were off. What is the state of the artificial silk trade to-day—due to a large measure of Protection and the fullest security?
There are two questions which have been put to Protectionists tens of thousands of times, and no answer has yet been given to them. Protection is advocated by the right hon. Gentleman as a cure for unemployment. Now the first of these old questions is this: If it is going to cure unemployment here, why has it not cured unemployment in highly-protected countries? Answer that! There is no answer. We never hear anything of the 5,000,000 unemployed in America, a highly-protected country. Will hon. Members tell us why there are over 3,000,000 unemployed in Germany. And remember this—that not only have those two countries high protective tariffs, but they have something else. They have Empire Free Trade. The other question is this. If Protection is a good thing for the workers, why, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted this afternoon, are the wages in many of these highly-protected countries one-half the wages in this country? When hon. Members opposite have answered those two simple questions then I will continue the discussion further, and not until then.
I do not press that matter further, but I propose to devote the rest of my reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping, and I am going to answer the right hon. Gentleman by quoting language which is much more forceful than any I am able to command. I am not going to quote what he said 15 or 20 years ago. I am going to give the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, delivered within 12 months of his being made a Member of the Cabinet of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin). One of the things he said was:

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"Disraeli said, 'Protection was not only dead but damned.' Mr. Baldwin was welcome to use that quotation in his next speeches."
6.0 p.m.
He further said that the new Government—that is the Government of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley—was one of nonentities—inexperienced politicians foisted into the great offices of State. The people were being asked whether they would scrap the commercial foundations of the country under the leadership of the March Hare and the Mad Hatter into some uninspired project of Protection. It was like giving a blank cheque to a man whose name was not known outside Worcestershire that day twelvemonth. The right hon. Gentleman gave his opinion upon the demand for safeguarding. He said that the safeguarding of industries was a temporary measure to give a feeling of security immediately after the War. The Act was for five years; it was passing away, and he hoped it would pass away for ever. He marvelled as he read statistics at the temerity, inconsequence and folly which has animated Mr. Baldwin and his colleagues in plunging into this wild adventure. Protectionists saw the river flowing to the ocean. They wondered anxiously how long it would be before the earth was all drained dry. His advice was to pause before they adopted any of these half-baked, ill-thought-out, adventurous schemes. The idea that unemployment was caused by foreign imports was absurd.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Better get it right!
Mr. SNOWDEN: The right hon. Gentleman has said that so very often, that I am not surprised that he remembers it. He also said that the line he had taken was one which he always intended to take, whatever the consequences. Within 12 months, the right hon. Gentleman had joined the unknown man of Worcestershire as second, perhaps most important, of his Ministers, in a Government which two years before had fought a General Election upon full-blooded protection. There are three points in the Motion. The first is that the Government's policy is responsible for unemployment. We are censured because we will not adopt
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the Tory programme of Protection. Well, we might do that, provided we knew what it was, but it is like the chameleon, which changes with every light that is thrown upon it. You never know what the right hon. Gentleman's policy on these questions will be tomorrow. In these matters, at any rate—and I do not say this offensively—the right hon. Gentleman is like the American politician in the Biglow Papers:
"A marciful Providunce fashioned 'him' holler,
O' purpose thet 'he' might 'his' principles swaller."
In that matter, if I may quote an old verse which I have quoted before, the two right hon. Gentlemen are like Siamese twins—
"Two souls with but a single thought,
Two hearts that beat as one."
But the main purpose of this Motion is declared to be to condemn me because of my reticence in regard to these Duties. I shall make no statement beyond what I have already said. The party opposite can move 50 votes of censure between now and 14th April. They can put 1,000 questions down on the Order Paper. The only answer which they will get will be the answer which was given by the father of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain)—the father of the modern Protectionist movement; the only answer they will get are his words, "What I have said, I have said."
Mr. OLIVER STANLEY: I do not propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer at any length in all the three parts into which this Motion falls. The first part with which he dealt is that which censures him for leaving the trades which have McKenna and Safeguarding Duties in a state of uncertainty. I cannot help feeling that there is behind his refusal a trace of personal feeling. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman is afraid that, if he were in any way to recede from his original position, if he were to make any concession to our demand, it would be taken as a sign of weakness on his part. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that it would not. We on this side of the House and the country know the right hon. Gentleman. We know him as a man of metal—he is an Ironside with a heart of gold; his

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name is not confined to this country, but is spread beyond its bounds, and I understand that in the nurseries of France the name of the right hon. Gentleman is used with the same purpose and the same effect as the name of "Boney" was used in this country 100 years ago. He did not appear to give any real reason why he refuses to tell us. He said that he was not certain that any uncertainty was created, and that if any were created, it was not so bad as was made out, that the uncertainty created by previous Governments was greater, and that the uncertainty that future Governments may cause may be greater still. But he did not give a plain answer why he will not answer the question.
Is it not a mere slavish adherence to tradition, because it has been laid down that no Chancellor of the Exchequer should reveal his Budget secrets before the day of the Budget? If it is, I recommend the right hon. Gentleman to bring that tradition to the notice of his colleagues, because I remember the Lord Privy Seal some time in November, when speaking in an unemployment Debate, drew a loud burst of cheers from hon. Gentlemen behind him—which I remember particularly, because the cheers during that speech were not very frequent—by making a statement which I and they understood to be a promise of a tax on land values when the next Budget came.
Mr. SNOWDEN: He never said that. There has been a wide misunderstanding of what my right hon. Friend said. He made not the slightest reference to a tax on land values. What he said was that the Government were considering powers for giving authorities power to buy land in order that the future increment value of land may accrue to the community.
Mr. STANLEY: I accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. Under those circumstances, I will acquit the Lord Privy Seal of any violation of tradition or of having obtained applause under false pretences. It is a little surprising to have the right hon. Gentleman, one of the leading lights of the iconoclastic party opposite, to whom traditions are but baubles to be taken away, basing his refusal on mere tradition. What is the reason given for this tradition against the revelation of Budget secrets? Surely
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it is a revenue tradition, for in 99 cases out of 100 the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes an alteration in the Budget for revenue purposes. He has a certain amount of money to raise in one year, and any statement before the expiration of the financial year as to what he intends to do might be entirely falsified by occurrences between then and the closing year. He might announce the imposition of a duty, which some subsequent economy made unnecessary, or he might announce the reduction of a duty, which by some sudden expenditure might become impossible.
But this is not a question of revenue. The right hon. Gentleman does not ask us to believe that the revenue of the country to-day is in such a situation that it allows or admits a reduction of taxation. This House and the country has been subjected for days during the last few months to a not very edifying wrangle between the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor, as to whose fault it is that the cupboard is bare. All we do know is that the poor dog is not going to get anything. This is a matter of policy, and, if these duties are taken off, it is simply to carry out the right hon. Gentleman's Free Trade convictions. The right hon. Gentleman is giving cold comfort to those industries which are in a state of uncertainty whether after 14th April they are going to be protected or not. He treats them as if they were criminals. When they have asked him his intentions, he has fobbed them off with the mere reply that it is not done. Luckily, the right hon. Gentleman has only another month in which he can wreak his will on those industries, and in the meantime we must be content to regard it from our own point of view, either as a courageous conservative observance of immemorial tradition, or as the meaningless malicious obstinacy of a wilful man.
The second part of the Motion censures the Government for their unemployment policy. I intend to say little, for after the Debate of last Monday there is little to say. I experienced a curious illusion during that Debate, and I am certain that is was common to other hon. Members. Once or twice I had to rub my eyes, for it was the Lord Privy Seal speaking, it was the figure of the Lord Privy Seal, his face, his voice and his actions, but the words were the words of

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the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland).
Let me turn to the third, and far the most important part of this Motion, the part that deals with the question, on the correct solution of which may depend a good deal of the industrial prosperity of this country for the next generation. I hoped that after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition we should have been able to approach this subject in a calmer atmosphere. I believe this is common to hon. Members on all sides of the House of my age and my experience—frankly, we do not understand the heat that is engendered by these discussions amongst older and more experienced and more-to-be-admired statesmen. We do not see why it is necessary to stigmatise every Free Trader as an unpatriotic fool or every Protectionist as an ignorant knave. Wide as our differences still may be, we are able to look on this question as a question of the regulation of national business, and to be discussed as such, and in the way in which such a topic should be discussed.
I was very much encouraged by a speech the other day by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It made me think that there was a great deal more common ground between us than there used to be. The right hon. Gentleman, whose absence through illness we all deplore, is a man who has many critics, and I understand that those critics are not confined to any one section of the House, but do not let us forget that it is the right hon. Gentleman and not his critics who will be dealt with by the historians. It might be an impertinence in his presence to try to analyse his political value. In his absence, perhaps I may attempt it, and I should say that his greatest asset has been his realness. He looks at the world not as it may be in the future, not as he would like to believe that it is, but as it is in fact. He has no spontaneous upwelling of uncontrollable passion, except for oratorical purposes. He does not regard every political policy in the light of a crusade. He does not divide the protagonists of political thought into irreconcilable groups, black one side, white the other. After all, the right
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hon. Gentleman has got a better reason than most for remembering that there is always grey.
The right hon. Gentleman was speaking the other day on the Motion dealing with Empire Free Trade, and he referred quite incidentally to the importation of subsidised wheat. He naturally surrounded his statement with all the paraphrases and the safeguards which experienced statesmen employ. He did not know if there was a problem; if there was a problem, he did not know how serious it might be; and in any case he referred it in the last resort to a committee, that first thought and last hope of experienced statesmen. But it came down to this, that given the existence of certain circumstances he would be prepared to place an embargo upon the importation into this country of subsidised foreign wheat. Why? Not because of anything to do with its quality, because it would be injurious to our health; not for any political reason; not because he did not want to trade with Germany or France or any other country of export; but for the simple and sole reason that that wheat was coming into this country at too cheap a price. The price was the only consideration he had in his mind. Why did he object to the cheapness? Would the right hon. Gentleman have risen in his wrath if Brazil had subsidised the imports of coffee into this country at a ridiculous price? He only objected to the low price of wheat because that wheat, through its cheapness, came into competition, and overwhelming competition, with the wheat produced in this country.
When once you admit the principle that imports, through their cheapness, may be damaging and disastrous to the interests of the country and may require a Government effort to stop them, how can you confine it to products which have a Government subsidy? What is the difference in principle whether this importation be subsidised by taxpayers through a Government subsidy; by the consumer in the country abroad, because you charge him more and dump your surplus on the foreigner; or by the workers abroad, because you make him work under coolie conditions? It may be that the degree of the damage is different, that the taxpayer has a bigger back and can bear a bigger burden and bear it longer, but the principle is exactly the same; and

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once the right hon. Gentleman has admitted that in certain circumstances he would be entitled to, and would stop, the importation of wheat into this country because it was too cheap, he has driven a hole into the dyke of free trade which even the heroic thumb of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) will not be able to stop for long. A great deal of the Free Trade cargo which hon. Members have been carrying for so long has got to be jettisoned, unless they are going to make the captain walk the plank. In any case, a number of good Free Trade speeches which have done yeoman service for 20 years will have to be drastically remodelled.
Hon. Members opposite also have their sacred relics, they have their ancient monuments of old traditions, the best preserved of which are on view this afternoon; but among the newer and younger Members of the Labour party I wonder how much real love there is for the old Cobdenite theory, how much they regard those old Free Trade doctrines as a religion? We have only to look at the Order Paper to-day and to compare the names which are appended to a Motion frankly Protectionist—not for a tariff, but a frankly Protectionist Motion—and the old Free Trade Amendment standing in the names of other hon. Members, to realise on which side of the fence is the youth of the party opposite. The other night the hon. Member for East Leicester (Mr. Wise), who has attracted very considerable attention in this House by his constructive and progressive thought, even though we may disagree with some of his conclusions, stated quite openly in debate that in his opinion the antiquated system of Free Trade was quite out of place in the modern world. I think we can take it that we have this amount of common ground, that ail parties are prepared at a certain time, in certain circumstances, and under certain conditions, to restrict the freedom of imports into this country, and it simply becomes a question now of when, why and how. Once you get down to that, you can discuss tariffs simply as one of your weapons, taking their place with embargoes, import licences, cartels and bulk purchases; you can discuss tariffs on a business-like basis, and discard them or adopt them on that basis alone.
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There is one other argument which was advanced by the right hon. Gentleman. I thought he would have to introduce it in the course of his speech. It is the idea that tariffs will lead to an overwhelming amount of lobbying and logrolling, corruption, and the like. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Well, really, are we to say that if for other reasons we believe a tariff policy to be the best in the interests of this country we dare not introduce it because it will subject Members of the House of Commons to a corruption which they will not be able to withstand? If so, it is a mere negation of democracy, and it comes ill from hon. Members opposite. After all, there is to-day a Labour Government in power in Australia. That Labour Government has not only carried on the Protectionist tradition, but it has increased the protective tariff. I do not know whether it is believed that industrialists in Australia are purer of heart, or that members of Parliament in Australia are stronger of will, than in this country. But in any case, I have heard no complaints against their integrity, and certainly the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has not yet excommunicated them and we know how particular he is.
I think we can now consider tariffs from a purely business point of view, apart from the old sentiments attaching to the question. The object of tariffs is to secure your home market for home producers without at the same time damaging your competitive power in the markets of the world. What are the reasons which makes one believe that tariffs may damage your competitive power? First, it is said that it may induce inefficiency in your protected industries; secondly, that it may increase the price of semi-manufactured articles which are the raw material of other industries, thereby increasing their cost of production, and decreasing their competitive power. It is obvious that a general system of Protection, put on indiscriminately, without inquiry and without any safeguards, may lead to those things which are feared, but are we really to be bound to an old-fashioned system? Is it impossible that in 20 or 30 years we have thought of something a little better? Are we confined to the old Safeguarding and McKenna Duties which have been

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discussed this afternoon? I know that facts are produced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to show that those duties have not helped industry. Facts can be produced from this side to show that they have. It may be true that facts cannot lie, but it is quite certain that facts can be used to demonstrate what the Leader of the Opposition calls the many-sidedness of truth.
But is it not possible that there is something better than the McKenna Duties or the Safeguarding Duties? The Safeguarding Duties suffered from a cumbrous procedure, with, in my mind, misguided terms of reference to the committees administering them, who, though most worthy and most energetic in their tasks, were not the best selected for the purpose. The McKenna and Safeguarding Duties are what one might call squinting duties. They were imposed with at least one eye, if not two eyes, upon the revenue. But cannot we ensure that when we put on duties we guard against the twin dangers of inefficiency and increase of price? When we are asked for something by these industries, why cannot we ask for something in return? When the railways come to us to ask for monopolies by Act of Parliament, we ask for safeguards from them. When electricity undertakings and gas undertakings come to ask for monopolies, we exact obligations from them. Why cannot we do exactly the same thing when manufacturing industries come and ask for what is, after all, a great deal, and that is a partial monopoly in this country for their particular products? Why cannot we demand efficiency as a condition of the granting of a tariff, and the maintenance of efficiency as a condition of its continuance? That does not seem to present insuperable difficulties.
The Prime Minister has set up an Economic Advisory Council, which has, I think, met with general approval. The only dissentient note is that of my hon. Friend the Member for Devonort (Mr. Hore-Belisha), but I think we can put that down to an upwelling of brilliant humour rather than of serious criticism. No doubt earnest Liberals in the country are still searching through the green, yellow and other coloured books to find out what part the hon. Member's candidate for that Council played in the compilation of those books. At that
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economic conference the Government had some of the best experts in the world on any subject not only intellectually but practical. We have the best industrialists, technicians, and engineers in any country, and we can get the best report upon the requirements of every industry in this country. Why is it not possible to say to any industry which asks us for this great gift of a tariff, "There are certain glaring defects in the organisation of your industry to-day. You ask us for something, and we are entitled to ask something from you in return. If you reorganise your industry you shall have your tariff and remove those defects"?
Mr. ANEURIN BEVAN: I understand that it is suggested that a tariff should be made the basis of efficiency, and that you cannot have efficiency until you have protected it by your tariff. Now I gather, if I understand the hon. Member correctly, that he is not going to allow a tariff unless first of all they answer the test of efficiency.
Mr. STANLEY: Unless, first of all, they agree to adopt the test of efficiency which you put to them. Then there is the question of price. It has always been the argument of the Protectionist that if you protect the home market the first and obvious consequence is a rise in the price of the article protected, and you will not have any increase in the cost of production. That is a far saner argument to-day than in the past. The whole trend of modern industry has been to decrease the proportion of labour costs in the production of any goods. The permanent overhead charges to-day form a far greater proportion than in the past. There is the upkeep of the factories, there is your technical staff, the sales organisation, the expenses of running and repairs to your machinery, and all those are permanent charges which have to be borne whether you are producing at 100 or 50 per cent capacity. It is only the smaller proportion of labour charges which vary in accordance with the proportionate capacity on which you are working. The system on which all Protectionist countries are working to-day is that you can afford to dump goods below the cost of production in other countries, if by that means you keep your factories running at 100 per cent., and thus reduce vour overhead charges.

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There is far more in the argument of the Protectionist to-day than in the past, but why should we take his word? Why should it not be a condition of his tariff that the price shall bear some relation to the price at which some small parcel of goods may be dumped? A dump supply is an unreliable supply, and not one upon which the industries of this country ought to depend. Why should we not make it a condition that it should be kept in some relation to the world price, the price at which the producer abroad supplies the consumer in his own country? It does not seem to me that either of those objects is unattainable, and I do not think the industries of this country would be averse from discussing tariffs upon that basis. I believe that upon that basis you might found a tariff policy which would be a selective, discriminative and safeguarded rather than a safeguarding policy which would do an infinite amount of good to our country industrially. I do not confess to the pessimism which possesses some people. I do not pretend, and I do not believe, that that policy would bring to this country overwhelming and continual prosperity. I do not believe that you will get that in this country, or in any other country until you have more sanity and less selfishness in your international use of gold, but I do believe that a scientific selective system in this country will enable you to get a fair share of the world's prosperity that is going, and one which will not see us again in the position in which we have been for the last five years, that is, a depressed country during what amounted almost to a world trade boom.
I have been a Free Trader and, in a sense, I am a Free Trader still, if by that is meant believing that a Free Trade world is a more peaceful and more prosperous world than a world split by tariff barriers. But what hope is there of that? Nearly 100 years ago Cobden and his school painted that picture for us, a picture of a world free from tariff barriers in which every country, by a process of elimination and selection, would finally arrive at the production of those goods which it produced best, and would settle down peacefully to produce those goods and no other. It happened by what can be only regarded as a merciful dispensation of providence
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that we buy more goods than anyone else. It was that definite combination of a moral crusade and material advance that made such an irresistible appeal to the predecessors of hon. Members below the Gangway. What was the reality? More barriers and not a Free Trade world but a world divided by higher barriers than before, not countries settling down to specialise on certain forms of industry, but every country striving at whatever cost to produce everything it needed for its requirements.
I only wish that the President of the Board of Trade had been here to tell us what he thinks of what is going on at Geneva, for I am afraid that they have not set themselves a very high standard. It is not a question of revising tariffs. All that they said was, "Let us see if we cannot agree in having a convenient period of notice in which anyone can make a change of tariffs if they wish to, and let us see if we can agree that for two years we will not raise our tariffs any more, with the exception, of course, of tariffs on certain articles which we will discuss in detail." That is not a very high standard, but, even judged by that standard, how far have they succeeded? I know that the right hon. Gentleman was most optimistic, and he thought that everything was proceeding according to plan. He said that they were discussing the details, and the conference was not dead. Of course it is not dead. International conferences are like old soldiers. They never die; they only fade away. I wonder if the President of the Board of Trade, in his heart of hearts, believes that he found agreement amongst the nations of the world, that Proection was damaging them, or anything more than a desire to see if they could not come to some agreement to maintain the tariffs which are helping them, and get their competitors to reduce the tariffs that are hindering them. A Free Trade world is a dream. The economic problem we have to face is the problem of the present. It is no good the Chancellor of the Exchequer talking about a conspiracy to impress upon the people of this country how bad the trade situation is with the idea of shaking their confidence. If there is a recent conspiracy, it is that in which the Lord Privy Seal is the chief conspirator. There is a real economic

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problem facing us which has got to be settled. It is no good waiting for the glorious dream which has not eventuated in 100 years, and hope that it will eventuate in 100 days. The truth is that England has failed to save Europe by her example, and it is time that she tried to save herself by her exertions.
Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: On these benches we unhesitatingly intend to support the Government to-day in resisting this Motion. We regard the Chancellor of the Exchequer as being ready to defend with great courage and consistency principles which we believe to be right in these fiscal affairs, and we shall certainly not desire to join in any pressure being put upon the right hon. Gentleman to engage in a preliminary disclosure of the proposals he may make in the Budget. We are prepared to await the propositions which the times will permit in reference to the duties which are now under discussion. Undoubtedly, it is somewhat surprising that the Opposition Front Bench should have put upon the Order Paper of the House a Motion urging the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day to take the most unusual course, the almost unprecedented course, of declaring to the country in advance what measures he is intending to propose to Parliament in his Budget.
If this were done in this case, how could it be resisted in similar cases in the future? Every year there are trades which will be affected by the imposition or repeal of taxes in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget, and every year there would be the same clamour that there was uncertainty through interfering with business and depreciating the prospects of unemployment. It was still more amazing since the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain), when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Conservative Government, did make a disclosure in a wholly different matter not in the least parallel with this, but urged at the same time that he hoped no future successor of his would ever adopt the same course. In spite of that, we find this Motion coming from his present colleagues in Opposition.
It is true that uncertainty is affecting business. It is true, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, that this is the natural consequence of bringing this
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question of tariff duties on to the Floor of the House of Commons at all. I cannot understand how hen. Members above the Gangway can make speeches in the country urging that business should be kept out of politics and advising politicians to leave business men alone to conduct their own businesses in their own way without interference from the House of Commons, and yet, at the same time, asking the country deliberately to adopt a policy which will inevitably involve not once or twice, but year after year, all kinds of questions affecting the trade and business of this country coming before Parliament in order to be dealt with on the Floor of the House. I think the consequences of that will be very grave upon our Parliamentary life and our political system.
It is bad enough to have had for many years one great industry, the liquor trade, which has taken for its motto, "My trade my politics," but the scheme we are considering would almost compel every industry to take as its motto, "My trade my politics." In the constituencies of all of us we should be pressed by the vested interests, who were seeking to secure the favour of a tariff imposed by Act of Parliament, to come here and advocate, not the general policy which we think right in the interests of the nation as a whole, but the particular policy which might be to the immediate interest of some group of producers, whether employers or workmen, in our own constituencies. During the latter half of the 19th century trade and commerce were free from this interference, and employers never had to consider whether Parliament would come down upon them and impose some duty which would affect them to their detriment, or whether by exercising sufficient pressure they could get Parliament to help them by imposing some duty which was to the advantage of their interests, however deleterious it might be to consumers at large. Therefore, this plea as to interference, uncertainty, and detriment to business, comes with a very ill grace from those who would make it a general rule year after year of our political life.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin), in moving this Motion, gave us a most interesting historical disquisition, going back 100 years for his authorities, and I think the

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most recent was Bagehot. He expected, possibly, that some of us on these benches might in defence rise and plead the cause of general laissez faire. The right hon. Gentleman himself must be living intellectually in those days if he has not realised that there is no section of this House now which preaches, or would desire to practice, the old doctrine of laissez faire as propounded by Ricardo or James Mill. We have moved far from that. We are not concerned here with the fiscal doctrines of 100 or even 50 years ago. Hon. Members above the Gangway have preached so often the strange legend that the Liberal party hold the opinions that they do out of devotion to the illustrious memories of Cobden and Bright that they have almost come to believe it themselves, but it has not the remotest connection with the truth. If we are Free Traders, as we are, it is because we are convinced that that policy is the best for our own country in the present circumstances of the world. We are prepared to argue it upon that basis, and are not in the least inclined to be tempted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley into any discussion of the views of James Mill or of Ricardo.
All these matters must be judged on their merits, and on their present-day merits. We have all come to the conclusion, and we have declared it in our public statements of policy on many occasions, that we think that now there is the need for social, communal action for the improvement of the condition of the people in a score of directions which our predecessors in the last century would have considered impossible; but that does not lead us necessarily to the conclusion that we must have State interference on every occasion and whenever it can be proposed. That can be compared with what an old English writer called the logic of the roasting-jack—it must go on to the last turn when once it has been wound up. We have to consider these questions each on its own merits. We remain convinced on the doctrine of freedom of commerce, while at the same time recognising in many directions the need of social action with regard to the conditions of labour, education, sanitation, and a score of other matters. Some may say that we on these benches are committed to the McKenna Duties on account
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of their origin, that some of us—I myself, for one—were Members of the Government which originally imposed those duties, and it is sometimes asked, how can we consistently advocate their abolition?
The reason is that those duties were proposed in the first instance in time of war, purely as a war measure for that particular occasion—not with any protective purpose, not even with any revenue purpose beyond a very small element of desire to increase the revenue that might come in, but mainly, and indeed almost solely, because it was essential at that time to conserve as far as possible shipping space in incoming vessels for all kinds of goods which were essential for maintaining the general life of the country under war conditions. Further, in the interest of maintaining the exchanges, it was essential to check all imports that were not of real value to the nation in the circumstances of those days. Let it be remembered, also, that these duties which we are discussing now are not the McKenna Duties that were originally imposed, for they were all repealed when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was previously in office, and in 1924 they disappeared from the Statute Book. If they are there again now, and if we are discussing them this evening, it is because the late Government reimposed them. It is their duties, and not our duties, that we are now engaged in considering.
One argument of much interest was used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley. It is frequently heard in these discussions, and it is a comparatively new argument; it was not much heard of when these matters were discussed in earlier times. The right ton. Gentleman expressed it in this way: The hope of our industry lies in rationalisation. He, he said, is a rationaliser. How can that be secured? It must be secured by giving the industries time to organise themselves, preserving for them the home market, and enabling them by that security to raise the capital which is necessary in order to transform them into such a position as is required by modern conditions. That is a theory which deserves close and candid attention. It is said, further, that if this is done there will not be a permanent rise in prices. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth

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(Sir H. Croft) has repeatedly urged that in the long run Protection of this sort need not raise prices, because, once these industries are rationalised, they will be working full time, and, if they are working full time, they can produce more cheaply and, therefore, prices need not permanently rise, or even might not rise at all. Let us see how long the period is to be which is to be allowed for this transformation. Take those very industries which we are now considering. The key industries were protected in 1921, when the right bon. Gentleman the Member for Bewdley was himself President of the Board of Trade. He introduced the Bill, and he used this argument. He said that we must secure the establishment of certain industries; we must give them time to root themselves here, and in the Bill a time limit of five years was proposed. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"The abject of fixing the period for five years, which I quite agree may be described as an arbitrary period, is that that is a term of years which, after very careful consideration, we believe is long enough for an industry to prove that, when it is not having special financial assistance, and when there will still be in some cases competition, those industries can so solidify their position and so perfect their experiments that they may be able to stand and flourish in free competition at the end of the period. If they are unable to do so, I think it is very possible that the Government of the day five years hence may have to confess that the endeavours made by this Government to root in our soil industries that we believe to be essential have failed, and it is very possible that no further attempt may be made."
The right hon. Gentleman concluded by saying:
"I think that in specifying five years we have gone to the limit of what the industries may reasonably expect."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May, 1921; cols. 876–7, Vol. 142.]
That was nine years ago, and to-day the right hon. Gentleman comes down to the House to protest against the special protection of these industries coming to an end after a period of close upon 10 years. As to the motor industry, that has had Protection for 14 or 15 years, with the sole exception of the eight or nine months when the McKenna Duties were repealed under the Labour Administration of 1924. What, then, becomes of this theory that you only have to protect for a little
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while in order to enable an industry to organise and rationalise so as to be able effectively to meet on equal terms the competition of any part of the world? The right hon. Gentleman, however, laid great emphasis to-day upon this argument, and it is an argument which does interest the country as a whole.
We have rationalised industries in this country. The electrical machinery industry is highly prosperous, its exports are increasing with great rapidity, it is giving full employment to its workpeople, and it is not protected. It has no Safeguarding Duties, but it is working under Free Trade, and it is rationalised. The chemical industry, again, is protected only to a very small extent, and there is another industry with which I happen to be familiar, because it exists to a large extent in my own constituency, namely, the wallpaper industry. That is rationalised. The whole industry has been carefully organised, and it is extremely prosperous, is working full time and is paying adequate wages. Now we read in the Press that the shipbuilding industry is on the point of taking drastic measures to reorganise its production, and to secure the best possible conditions of output. That industry is not protected. The cotton industry, also, which has not sought and does not seek Protection, is in many directions seeking to rationalise itself. The fact is that rationalisation is one thing, and Protection is another. You may have rationalisation without Protection, and you may have Protection without rationalisation. Indeed, if you grant Protection, you are far less likely to have the stimulus, the impetus to rationalise that you get under Free Trade. Rather would the employers be inclined to adopt the policy which was described by the Minister of Transport in another connection—the simple policy of high prices, quick profits and a quiet life. It is when they are subjected to the fierce blasts of foreign competition, and are under the hard necessity of reorganising their industries, that they are most likely to be induced to take the course that the conditions of the age require.
There is another argument. It is urged most strongly that these industries are subjected to unfair competition. The usual phrase is, "the sweated labour on the Continent." When the late Government laid down the conditions that they

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proposed to apply in regard to Safeguarding, they put that in the forefront. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's (Sir L. Worthington-Evans), the late Secretary of State for War, stated in the House in the last Parliament the conditions which the Government considered necessary before any industry could be granted Safeguarding, and one was that it had to be proved that the goods so imported were manufactured in the country of origin under unfair or inferior conditions of hours or wages, and, unless that could be proved, there was to be no Safeguarding. The Conservative party, therefore, laid it down as a definite condition that there must be unfair or inferior conditions of hours and wages. Could that be claimed with regard to the motor industry? The motor industry is the one which attracts most attention in our Debate to-day, but all the world knows that the really effective competition against the British motor industry comes from America, where the conditions as to hours and wages are certainly not inferior, but in some respects are superior to our own. How, then, can it be claimed in Parliament to-day that the motor industry of Great Britain is entitled to Protection, is entitled to be Safeguarded? I hope that if any hon. Member follows on the Protectionist side he will explain why it is that certain conditions should be laid down for industries in general, which must be necessary qualifications for Safeguarding, and yet it is now insisted and demanded that an industry which patently does not conform to those conditions should nevertheless have similar benefit. As a matter of fact, the condition of the motor industry is an example of how hollow and short-sighted this argument is that we must have tariff Protection in this country because of lower wages on the Continent.
It is a profound error to think that cheap labour necessarily means cheap production. It certainly does not. During the whole of the last century British industries had to face competition from Continental countries. Wages have been lower and hours have been longer in those Protectionist countries, but nevertheless our British industries were able to flourish in competition, owing to the skill of managers, owing to the skill and industry of workpeople, owing to our geographical situation, and owing to our
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Free Trade system, which allowed our manufacturers to obtain all that they required from any quarter of the world. Only a few days ago a most interesting and informing speech was made by the chairman of the Ford Motor Company in this country, Sir Percival Perry, in which he dealt with this question of the comparative rates of wages here and abroad. He said that the Ford Company had made the most careful inquiries as to the comparative labour value of the wages they pay, and they compared how long it took each respective man to complete his work. He said that precisely the same processes were being carried on in their works here in Manchester and in similar works in various parts of the world.
"In Denmark, where we pay the highest wages in Europe, we find the lowest costs. On the other hand, in Belgium, where the wages are lowest, the minute costs are highest. This is no flash-in-the-pan casual comparison. Week after week and month after month the figures confirm this experience."
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The Ford Company, he tells us, in Manchester are paying wages for a 40-hours week which amount to nearly £6 a week, and they can compete effectively with those wages. Always it has been the case that we have to compete with lower wages on the Continent, and it is not now an unanswerable argument for safeguarding. I anticipated that we should have had to-day—perhaos we will have it later on—a defence of the safeguarding system based on the experience of the particular industries concerned. I expect we shall have assertions made that employment has vastly increased for these particular industries.
Sir H. CROFT: Hear, hear!
Sir H. SAMUEL: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) says "Hear, hear!" but he himself only a few weeks ago introduced into this House a Private Member's Bill to require all the employers in the safeguarded industries to make returns of the numbers they employed, and the reasons he gave to the House in a 10 minutes' speech were that there were no figures now existing which showed the extent of employment in these industries.
Sir H. CROFT: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to misrepresent me. My point was that the figures are only shown in the big group. My request

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was that the House should get information about all the subsidiary industries which make accessories.
Sir H. SAMUEL: That is precisely what I was saying. There must be some misunderstanding. There are no figures which show the extent of employment now and previously in the safeguarded trades. They are all grouped together in large statistical units, and, therefore, nothing is known as to the number of people employed in these particular industries. Answers have been given by the Minister of Labour both in the present Government and in the last Government saying that it is impossible to give any figures showing the effect of Safeguarding Duties upon employment in the trades to which they apply. If it is the case that the particulars are available why should the hon. and gallant Member have gone to the trouble of introducing a Bill and asking Parliament to pass it into law in order to supply particulars which are required for his sake in this controversy? Then, again, there is the experience of the trades now subjected to Safeguarding. This is a point of vital importance in the whole of this controversy.
The effect of Protection upon our export trade is by far the most important question that arises. For this country must live by its exports. This small island, which must necessarily import most of its foodstuffs and raw materials, even if every acre of land were cultivated to the highest point, can only purchase them by exporting, and mainly by exporting manufactured goods. Our experience leads to this. If the manufacturers of this country say, "We are beaten in the home market by these imports; we cannot compete even here in our markets at our own doors; we are beaten, and we must have tariff protection or we give in." If they say that, what chance have they of competing with those countries in all the neutral markets of the world? Beaten here in the United Kingdom by what is supposed to be the cheaper labour of other countries, compelled to come to Parliament and say that they must close their works if those goods are not shut out, how can they preserve their trade in South America, in Asia, in Africa, in all the countries of the world? That is the most dangerous of all the effects of these
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safeguarding proposals. We have had before us the result in regard to the present safeguarded industries. Apart from three—motor cars, gramophones and artificial silk—in which trade has expanded in all countries, in almost every other case the exports of the safeguarded trades have gone down since the duties have been imposed. With the exception of those three which I have mentioned, in which the trade is expanding in all countries owing to a vast increase of demand for a new article, with regard to almost all the others—I can give the figures if necessary—exports have gone down seriously.
There is one other argument advanced in favour of the retention of these duties. It is said that foreign factories come in and that many foreigners come within the shelter of these duties, put up new factories here and give employment, and that, by refusing to give that protection, you are discouraging a movement of that character. It is an argument which is, on the face of it, plausible and carries conviction to a great number of people who do not know the full facts. Foreign factories for many a year past have been set up in this country in order to gain the advantages which I have mentioned. For example, our great electrical machine industry has been built up very largely by American and German firms which have come here in order to produce those goods which are not and have not been in any way protected—the General Electric, British Thomson-Houston, Western Electric, Siemens. Only a few days ago it was mentioned in the "Times" that three new American factories—no doubt on a small scale—have been opened in Welwyn Garden City for the manufacture of grindstones, shredded wheat, and corsets. None of them are protected articles. Here are foreign factories coming in to have the advantages of the labour and financial and geographical conditions and of the freedom of import which are to be found in this country. But where are the new foreign factories in the great number of industries now protected for several years? There are one or two motor and tyre factories, but what about lace, cutlery, gloves, gas mantles, packing and wrapping paper, china, buttons and hollow-ware? All these are protected. How many foreign factories have come in to take advantage of those

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conditions? Hardly one. We are told that there is a new factory of the Ford Company which is being erected at Dagenham involving an expenditure of £2,500,000 and likely to employ great numbers of British workmen. The Chairman of that company—I will quote from his speech again—said last week:
"I wish to take this opportunity most emphatically to deny certain statements which have been made—namely, that the imposition of import duties has impelled foreign manufacturers to establish industrial works in Britain. …. I have to go back to pre-War days to tell you that long before Mr. McKenna was Chancellor Mr. Henry Ford had acquired land in Britain, retained British architects and experts, built models of factories, and practically concluded his plans for the development of the European Ford industry, along the lines which this company is to-day pursuing. It was only the outbreak of War which postponed these plans. That they were not immediately resumed at the close of the War was owing to the fact that general disturbance of commercial conditions throughout the world seemed to indicate that it was unwise to do so at that time. I think I may tell you frankly that our company does not object to the McKenna Duties and really does not care whether they are continued or removed, or varied."
So you have this clear statement that this company was about to be established before the McKenna Duties, before there was any question of protected duties or of a policy of this character. The Chairman of this great company which is engaged in this great expenditure tells the country and the House that it makes no difference to him whether the duties are continued or removed.
This Motion does not deal only with the Safeguarding Duties. It protests against the Government not being ready to extend and to increase Imperial Preference. This House has to vote to-day on whether it desires to see such an extension. What form is that extension to take? The right hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin) was very careful to tell us nothing about it. I wonder whether the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) will be more forthcoming. We know that any effective preference to the Colonies and Dominions and to India as well—and India is a very important consideration in this connection—can only be given by imposing duties on imported foodstuffs and raw materials. Is that within the policy of the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench or is it not? We have an absolute right to press
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them in this Debate on that point. We are asked to vote for or against a Vote of Censure on the Government. If that vote were carried, it would result in the resignation of the Government and the installation of another, and we have a right to know what policy those who move this Vote of Censure would follow.
Before the last General Election, the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely specific, perfectly clear beyond the possibility of the shadow of a doubt. Speaking at the great meeting of his party immediately before the General Election, at Drury Lane—not on some inconspicuous or unimportant occasion—he used these words:
"We are pledged, and shall continue to be pledged, not to introduce Protection. We are pledged, and shall continue to be pledged, not to impose any taxes upon food."
For how long is that undertaking to hold good? That is within a year. Does it hold still? The right hon. Gentleman really ought to tell us whether it holds or whether it does not. The Member for Bewdley has a great reputation for frank, innocent, almost bucolic, sincerity and outspokenness. If the wishes to withdraw his pledge, I submit that he must formally do so. If he does not formally do so, he must be regarded as held to it. If he is to be held to it, then what is to be said by the advocates of the United Empire party? What will be said by his new ally? But if the contrary, what will be said by the right hon. Member for Epping who has denounced food taxes again and again in the most unsparing terms? We shall know soon whether he still adheres to that opinion. I cannot feel quite certain about it when I remember the fluctuations of the right hon. Gentleman's opinions in certain matters. Like the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I will not go back over a long period and quote his words of long ago. We all know that in our politics there is nothing so completely obsolete as the Winston Churchill of 10 years before, but the right hon. Gentleman only a short time before the election, in January, 1929, went to the Manchester Chamber of Commerce and, in the course of his speech, said he supposed that most of his audience, like himself, were Free Traders. Does the right hon. Gentleman still adhere to that view?
Mr. CHURCHILL: I wish my right hon. Friend would complete the quotation. It is frequently quoted in a mutilated and completely misrepresenting form.
Sir H. SAMUEL: It is a plea for the Safeguarding policy which he was advocating, and he ended by saying:
"In pleading for this matter being kept out of ordinary Parliamentary politics, let me say that I presume here in this audience probably the great majority are Free Traders, as I am myself."
Mr. CHURCHILL: The right hon. Gentleman is completely perverting the purpose of the speech. The purpose of the speech was to point out the new conditions which had arisen, the successful experiments in Safeguarding which had been made, and to urge the audience in Manchester to support those experiments, although they and I still adhered to the general method and principle of Free Trade.
Sir H. SAMUEL: I understand. The right hon. Gentleman was advocating Protection as a Free Trader. The right hon. Gentleman is not only distinguished in our politics; he is unique. Many of our statesmen in days gone by have found it necessary, owing to changing circumstances or for other reasons known to themselves, to advocate opposite things at different times, and there are many precedents for that, from the days of Peel, and Gladstone, and Disraeli, right down to the right hon. Gentleman, but I think the right hon. Gentleman is the only one known to our history who advocates opposite principles at the same time. He proclaims Free Trade, and would promote Protection. He opposes food taxes and is also ready to accept them. [Interruption.] If he and his colleagues are not accepting food taxes, they are playing most unfairly with the innocence of Lord Beaverbrook.
The matter, however, we are told, is to be finally decided not here, but by a Referendum of the whole country. When the Referendum was last advocated in this House, I opposed it from that box, and I had no more vehement ally than my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping. He said, in the course of those Debates, that Mr. Balfour, who was then Leader of the Opposition
"might wish, by means of the Referendum, to rid his party of the incubus of Tariff
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Reform, on the principle that one poison is used to expel another,"
and that Mr. Balfour's object was to confuse the naked issue that would otherwise be before the country. That is not all. He denounced the Referendum as an expedient, as a constitutional method, and, with the rhetoric and ring which are familiar to us, he said that if this were adopted
"the stable foundation from which this House has so long been able to administer the affairs of the Empire would be exchanged for a tossing sea of frenzied electioneering, Parliamentary and representative institutions which have been the historic glory of these islands would be swept away, and, in their places, we would have the worst forms of Jacobinism, Caesarism and anarchy."
This is the method which the right hon. Gentleman now proposes for the eager acceptance of Parliament and the nation. Perhaps we shall have a reply from the right hon. Gentleman on these points; I am sure I have given him plenty of material.
Let me come back for one moment to another point which is of substance, and of more serious interest than even those to which I have just been referring. The right hon. Member for Bewdley said that we must adopt Safeguarding, because otherwise we would have no weapon to meet the hostile tariffs of other countries, that we must retaliate, and that only by retaliation should we be able to enjoy a general freedom of commerce. But all the countries of Europe have had this tariff weapon in their hands for generations past. They have been free to retaliate exactly as they chose against any of their neighbours. Not one of them has been able to get better terms for their commerce in the markets of their neighbours than we can get in the same markets. German goods do not go into France on better conditions than do British goods, and French goods do not go into Germany on better conditions than do British goods. Then why are we told that, if we copied them, we should be able to surpass their results?
I would agree that, if this weapon were likely to be effective, if we could impose tariff duties to secure reductions, with the certainty that immediately afterwards we could take them off, if they would be so effective for bargaining that they never need come into operation, if the mere threat of them would cause the

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walls of Jericho to fall, if that were the case, we might consider the matter, but we are convinced that it would not be so, that it would prove in our hands, as in the hands of those who have already wielded it, a futile and useless weapon. Let us look, then, at the condition of these Protectionist countries. I was amazed at the right hon. Member for Bewdley quoting a passage from Bagehot and not seeing its full application to the present circumstances. He said that we had not secured universal Free Trade, and that the peoples of the Continent said to us, to Free Trade England: "You may adopt Free Trade if you like, but it would not suit us. You are rich and strong, but we are poor and weak, and therefore we must have Protection against you." And he said that the same conditions applied to-day.
Why are we rich and strong, and why are they poor and weak, if we have such a bad fiscal system and they have such a good one? Let us judge this matter in the light of actual experience. That is the test, and not the theories or the doctrines of 50 or 100 years ago. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cobden!"] Let the hon. Member realise that we never base our case, that I have never known any Free Trader say that we ought to adopt Free Trade here simply because Cobden said it 50 years ago. We say: Look at the experience of the world now and judge the We systems as they exist in the world as we know it. A vast country like the United States of America, with immense natural resources, and the biggest Free Trade market in the world, cannot be compared with a little island like this, but compare us with our own neighbours in Europe, with countries which are like our own, and then see how the comparison works out. Germany has 3,250,000 unemployed to-day, and yet we are told that we must grasp at any method of relief for our own unemployed, and that it is only by adopting the German system of tariffs that we shall be able to improve our conditions.
Take all these various countries. There has been a most interesting paper published, not by any Free Trade organisation, not by any British organisation, but by the League of Nations, showing the height of the various tariffs of the principal industrial countries of Europe, and there has been another paper published
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by another Department of the League of Nations—no connection—showing what are the real wages of the working people in the various countries of Europe. Currency wages are no guide. We must take into account not only money wages, but what they will buy. And let the House mark this most remarkable fact: There are three countries which stand at the head of the list as having the lowest tariffs, and they are Great Britain, Holland and Denmark, and the three countries which stand at the head of the list as having the highest real wages are Denmark, Great Britain and Holland. The four countries which have the next lowest protective tariffs, but not very high tariffs, are Belgium, Germany, France and Sweden, and the four countries which have the next highest wages to the first group are Sweden, Germany, France and Belgium. The four countries which have the highest Protection and have adopted this admirable method of shutting out all foreign manufactures and keeping the home market entirely to the home producer are Italy, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Spain, and the four countries where the conditions of labour are the worst and the real wages are at the bottom are Spain, Czechoslovakia, Italy and Poland. And yet we are asked to abandon our system and adopt theirs!
The right hon. Member for Bewdley accused the Labour party of being too-insular, too arrogant in their local pride. For Heaven's sake, let us remain insular if our insular system brings us such infinitely better results than the Continental system, for it must be admitted by every Protectionist that the conditions of the people here are better than the conditions of the people on the Continent of Europe, that wages are higher and hours are shorter. Indeed, that is the very reason why they want to put tariffs against their goods. It must be admitted by everyone that the wealth of this country is far greater than theirs. Our shipping, thanks to Free Trade, is half the shipping of the whole world, and the exports of this country in proportion to population are nearly double the exports of manufactured goods of any country in the whole world. Insular? Yes, and let us remain insular on these conditions.
Sir H. CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman—
Sir H. SAMUEL: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth should contain himself. He is always bubbling over with the fermentation of 20 years' accumulation of fallacies. Some of my hon. Friends here have put down upon the Paper an Amendment to this Motion. Probably there will not be an opportunity of moving it. In that Amendment we endeavour to show that our policy in these matters is not merely negative. We advocate a large constructive policy of reform dealing with industry as well as agriculture, the relations of labour and capital, and Imperial development. Our view is not merely negative, but on this occasion we have to vote simply upon the questions of Free Trade and Protection and upon this Vote of Censure which has been moved against the Government. We congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the stand that he is making for sound fiscal principles and we are glad of the opportunity of supporting his views, and on this occasion we shall go into the Lobby in complete support of the policy of the Government.
Sir ROBERT HORNE: The question before the House is whether the Government should be censured for their disregard of the best interests of the country in a matter of grave importance. The Resolution regrets that the Government have neglected to give an indication to the country of the policy that they are going to adopt in regard to certain duties, by reason of which they have increased unemployment, and it further deplores the fact that they have not adopted the policy of Imperial Preference which would benefit the nation. As I understood the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he said that he had been asked to disclose what he should only be invited to disclose when he opens his Budget. As one who has held the high office which the right hon. Gentleman now occupies, I agree that it is not wise nor is it normal to make a disclosure previous to the Budget being opened but, obviously, that is a question of degree. It is not going to be said by anybody that if the country were faced with a calamity unless a disclosure upon a particular
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matter was made, that that convention or rule would be applied. The right hon. Gentleman has not been very consistent in this matter. He says, "Why should I declare beforehand whether or not I shall repeal a particular duty, and leave people to take certain action which otherwise they would not have taken?" He has done that very thing in regard to the Safeguarding Duties.
Mr. SNOWDEN Mr. SNOWDEN indicated dissent.
Sir R. HORNE: It is no good the right hon. Gentleman shaking his head. Let me remind him that some months ago he informed the House that when the Safeguarding Duties had terminated their ordinary period he would not renew them. Was not that a disclosure to the country as to what he intended to do? He did not disclose his intentions in regard to the McKenna Duties, because he had not made up his mind. I do not know whether his mind is made up yet, but I do know that it is because of that uncertainty—because he expressed his mind in regard to the Safeguarding Duties and refused to make any disclosure in regard to the McKenna Duties—that we have such great uncertainty in the country, which is creating very great trouble and difficulty for those who are endeavouring to carry on business. The whole question for the Chancellor of the Exchequer must resolve itself into a consideration of the situation. Are the conditions so grave that a disclosure ought to be made, and what are their counterbalancing difficulties? Could anyone suffer any harm to-day if the right hon. Gentleman announced whether he was going to repeal the duties upon motor cars? I cannot conceive a single creature who could suffer any damage or injury by being told, but, on the other hand, I know that a very great deal of damage is being done through want of knowledge.
What is the situation with which we are dealing? It is the gravest position in regard to unemployment that this country has even known. I am amazed at the optimistic speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). No one in touch with the business of this country could by any chance utter such optimistic sentiments.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me where I uttered any optimistic sentiments?
Sir R. HORNE: The right hon. Gentleman represented to the House that we are in a far better position than France. Is that his view? Would anybody compare our conditions to-day favourably with those of France?
Sir H. SAMUEL: Certainly, so far as the rates of wages are concerned.
Sir R. HORNE: The conditions in France at the present time, as everybody knows, are infinitely superior to ours. They are not faced with our difficulties, they are living in greater comfort and they are not confronted with the terrible disease which is eating into the hearts of our people—the disease of unemployment.
Mr. MacLAREN: Does the right hon. Gentleman attribute their condition in regard to employment to tariffs, or to some other cause?
Sir R. HORNE: That is not the case with which I am dealing. I am taking things in their proper order. Apparently, the right hon. Gentleman thinks that everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds in this country. No more grotesque description was ever given in the House of Commons as to the real position. So far from being able to look upon the position with equanimity, we are in a very grave position, and it is because of that position and because of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing by way of intensifying the difficulties of the position that we have moved this Vote of Censure, and have asked him to disclose what he intends to do. He admits that a condition of uncertainty is bad for business. It must be obvious to everyone that that is so. Take, for example, the motor car industry. Their plans have to be made months and months ahead as to the business they are going to do. When the 1930 model comes out it is not something which has been produced in the course of a few weeks. It has been a matter of careful consideration and calculation for very many months. What they are able to do in regard to new models must depend absolutely upon the facilities which are available to them, and the market which they can expect. If they do not know whether
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they are going to have a tremendous influx of American motor cars into this country when our shores are opened to them—the Chancellor of the Exchequer laughs.
Mr. SNOWDEN: I do.
Sir R. HORNE: It would be a very good thing for the right hon. Gentleman if at some time he had to face up to business and had to deal with the burdens and the troubles which industrialists have to face. The difficulty is that all these calculations and arrangements and preparations have to be made long before.
Mr. SNOWDEN: They are going on now.
Sir R. HORNE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the whole thing depends upon the market which the manufacturer can expect? If the manufacturer does not know what that market is going to be, how does the right hon. Gentleman imagine that he can make his arrangements? Employment has gone down in the motor trade in the last two or three months. The right hon. Gentleman has made reference to Coventry, but will he pay some regard to the employment statistics for the last few months. If he does so, he will find that the rate of increase in unemployment in the motor industry has been twice as much as the general rate for the whole country. If he looks at the figures for the silk industry he will find that unemployment has gone up by enormous proportions in the last few months. The right hon. Gentleman declines to see people. When a delegation wishes to see him, they are not allowed to go. He will not take the information that they are prepared to put before him. The only people that he will see are his friends. A deputation from the Free Trade League is readily admitted to him. When a silk trade deputation wishes to see him he tells them that they have nothing to say to him that he does not know already. Apparently, the Free Trade League or the Free Trade Union can tell him something that he did not know. I read the speeches that they made to him. I could have written those speeches before they went to him. The right hon. Gentleman occupies a very high and responsible position, and he refuses to obtain his information from

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people who can give it to him. I do not wonder that he is in a condition of ignorance.
The right hon. Gentleman maintains two opposite positions. He said that he accepted the view that uncertainty produced unemployment, and then he told us that it had not produced any.
Mr. SNOWDEN indicated dissent.
Sir R. HORNE: The fact is that the Free Traders in this House seem to take up an obscurantist position which is not adopted by Free Traders outside. It never was the attitude of the advocates of Free Trade to say that a trade would not be benefited when it was protected by a duty. On the contrary, they have said that it was beneficial to such trade at the expense of other industries. Apparently, the attitude taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon is that none of these trades has been benefited. Let me deal with that point. I will take the figures of the various trades which have obtained these Duties. Taking them singly and collectively, employment has increased in every one of them.
Mr. SNOWDEN indicated dissent.
Sir R. HORNE: Take the motor trade. If the right hon. Gentleman's figures are not available, I will take the figures that are given by members of the trade, who have facilities for recording the amount of employment. I find that, during the time that these Duties have been in existence, employment has gone up from 214,000 employés to 244,000. That does not nearly represent the whole situation. There are innumerable trades which are supplying the essentials required for the motor car trade, and those trades have been busy and have benefited in their employment. If we reckon the employment that is given by the motor car trade it cannot be put at less than 500,000 people. What has happened in the silk industry? In the period during which the Duties have been imposed the number of people employed has gone up from 45,000 to 73,000. It is obvious that these trades are not going to employ this larger number of people unless they are profiting from it. It is idle to say that these protected trades have not benefited by the Duties. In all these cases
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there has been a feeling of security which has enabled them to advance in a way that they were never able to do before.
The right hon. Gentleman asks how these duties are going to help the export trade. They help the export trade for a reason that every business man understands. The bigger the market you can depend on the more cheaply you can manufacture per unit. You will find that in every textbook of American business economics. You will find it set forth that the reason why America can export her goods against the rest of the world although she has higher wages, is that she has Protection and security at home and so can put her goods on other markets at competitive prices. That is one reason why the exports of our safeguarded industries have increased during recent years while the exports of all the other industries in this country have gone down. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the remark that these Duties were simply asked for by selfish manufacturers. I cannot understand his using phraseology of that kind. I have been at the Board of Trade. When there I received deputations on the question of imposing Safeguarding Duties. The workmen are as keen upon getting these Duties as are the employers.
Mr. SNOWDEN indicated dissent.
Sir R. HORNE: Again the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. Who were the people who came and asked for Safeguarding for wool? A combination of the manufacturers and the workmen. Who were the people who asked the present Government to take action on steel? The workmen in combination with the employers. Who asked for safeguarding in the case of fabric gloves? A large deputation of workmen and masters came in combination to me. I believe there is not a single case in which the workmen are not as eager that these duties should be sustained as are the employers. I saw the figures of a ballot taken in the hollow-ware trade. In favour of the maintenance of the duties there were 76 per cent., 8 per cent. against and 16 per cent. did not vote. How then can the right hon. Gentleman come here with a travestied statement that it is only the selfishness of manufacturers that asks for a retention of the duties?

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Is there any good reason for taking off the duties? It is admitted, surely, that any change will create difficulties in an industry. I have read some articles in the "Nation." Some of the phraseology of the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon seemed almost to have been taken straight from that journal. But what does the "Nation" point out? That it was no part of Free Trade doctrine that the taking off of established duties would not create grievous unemployment. The journal points out that it would be certain to create unemployment. It urged the Government not to do it, and begged Liberals not to believe that the taking off of the duties would be of any advantage to them at the election. It said that Liberals would be faced with the unemployment that had been caused and would be blamed for it. What reason is there for anyone taking off the duties now? Are they doing any harm to anyone? Has there been an outcry from a single creature that his business is being damaged by the duties?
If there is no advantage to be gained by dropping the duties, what extraordinary cynicism it is, for the sake of a mere phrase and for an old theory, to run the risk—I shall not put it any higher—of putting people out of employment! Is there one of us who, if we had the power, would say that we would put any single man or woman out of employment? I beg the Government to think twice before they bring such misery upon the people whose claims they profess to advocate. If there is to be no good purpose served by interfering with the duties, why interfere? Is it by any chance the fact that the continuance of the duties is perpetually demonstrating the falsity of Free Trade doctrines? What has been our experience of the duties? We were told that they would raise prices. Have they raised prices? There is no one who can bring any evidence of it. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about agriculture then?"] I am not on that point now; I am dealing with this Vote of Censure.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Will prices go down?
Sir R. HORNE: I do not think there is any evidence that prices will go down if the duties are taken off. Is there any evidence of an increase of price now that the duties are on?
Mr. SNOWDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the price of motor cars went down when the duties were last abolished?
Sir R. HORNE: At that particular time, when the right hon. Gentleman took off the duties, there was a glut of cars that had to be sold somehow. Obviously the manufacturers were eager to realise their stock, lest worse things befell them.
Mr. BECKETT: And they put extra men on.
Sir R. HORNE: We were told that exports would go down. We know, on the contrary, that the exports of motor cars and silk have gone up tremendously since the duties were imposed.
Mr. SNOWDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why exports increased 25 per cent. when the duties were off, and only about 20 per cent. since?
Sir R. HORNE: It is a very obvious business rule. If you have been making up stock in the belief that you will have a duty which will enable you to carry on, when the duty is taken off you have to realise that stock as rapidly as possible. That is an ordinary principle of business. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the figures since he had the felicity of taking off the duties and they were re-imposed he will find a steady rise both in the number of orders and in the exports.
Mr. SNOWDEN indicated dissent.
Sir R. HORNE: The reason is obvious to anyone who knows how to do business. Another thing that we were told was that you could not raise revenue and at the same time defend your industries. What is the fact? These duties bring in, a revenue of £12,500,000. I have no doubt that even the right hon. Gentleman with his hard Free Trade principles will be amenable to some appeal when he remembers that £12,500,000 of revenue which he will lose. Is the trade not being defended? Look at the alarm which has been created in the breasts of manufacturers who fear that the duties will be lost. That is sufficient indication that they think that the duties are a source of protection to them. On all these grounds Free Trade theories have been proved to be absolutely fallacious. We are now

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emerging on to another argument. The Chancellor of the Exchequer put a variety of questions to the House. He asked how it was that there was unemployment in America and in Germany as well as here. I do not know why he should derive any satisfaction from that. The difference between the unemployment in America and that here is that our unemployment has become chronic and has gone on steadily all these years, but America has had a great burst of prosperity in the interval. That is the answer to his first question.
Mr. DUNCAN: It is no answer.
Sir R. HORNE: The second question was, how was it that wages were higher in this country than in protected countries on the Continent? I would ask another question. How is it that in the protected country of America, and in Canada and Australia, wages are very much higher than they are here? If all that Free Traders said were true other countries in the world would be ruined. On the contrary they have made great progress. That leads me to a point which was made by the right hon. Member for Darwen. He was comparing our happy position with that of the Continent of Europe. I have no doubt that in actual collective wealth we are at the present time the wealthiest country in Europe. But to compare us with Germany after the War is not quite a fair comparison. If there had been no War and Germany had progressed at the strides at which she was progressing before, my right hon. Friend would not have been inclined to say that we were ahead of Germany at the present time. I ask him to remember the extreme rapidity of the progress of these countries compared with our own position. We have been steadily losing ground while they have been steadily gaining it. Of course the contrast with America must strike everyone.
I read the report of a recent speech by the right hon. Member for Darwen, in which he said that the chief reason against all these duties was that we must always buy in the cheapest market. That is a principle which in an absolute form has been given up long ago. I do not fancy that on the Labour benches I would find 10 per cent. of Members who would agree with it. "Buy in the
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cheapest market" was the slogan of the people who treated labour as a chattel, and said that the conditions of life of the workmen had nothing to do with their economic views. To apply the principle to-day would be to put countries with the best standard of life at the mercy of the competition of those with the worst standard. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman himself would apply that principle in practice. Let me state what has been going on to my certain knowledge in many directions in recent times. Unemployment in this country would have been immeasurably worse than it has been but for the fact that most of the great corporations and undertakings with orders to place favour the British manufacturer. They put on a voluntary tariff in his favour. Take the railway company with which I am connected. It is the policy of all the railway companies, so far as I know, not to place an order abroad because they can get the cheapest estimate there, but always to make a certain percentage allowance in favour of the British manufacturer. They defy the theory about buying in the cheapest markets.
The Chairman of the Great Western Railway Company announced to a meeting of shareholders what the policy of that company had been. In the year 1925 the company paid £120,000 more for stores than need have been paid if the purchases had been made in the cheapest market. Does the right hon. Member for Darwen agree with that policy or not? It is absolutely anathema to Free Trade. Is that right or is it wrong? It is dead wrong according to Free Trade.
Sir H. SAMUEL: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes me to answer his question I should say that it was wrong. I would ask him this: Suppose that it would have cost £250,000 more. Would he have done it then? Or suppose that it would have cost an extra £1,000,000. Would he have been justified, in the interests of his shareholders, in doing it? The same principle applies exactly in each case.
Sir R. HORNE: Now we know what is the doctrine that is preached. That we ought all to buy British goods is a completely erroneous slogan.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Not at all.
Sir R. HORNE: Obviously. It can only be right if Britain is the cheapest market, according to the right hon. Gentleman. You ought to buy abroad wherever you can. You ought to buy the cheapest. Now we know his policy.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Cheapest and best.
Sir R. HORNE: My answer is this. Of course there are limits to the extent to which you can go, just as there are limits to the extent to which you can put on tariffs. There is a graduation of tariffs.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Why?
8.0 p.m.
Sir R. HORNE: Every country puts on the scale of tariffs that suits its own manufacturers and keeps its own trade going. It is not all philanthropy that induces a railway company to do what I have described. It is obvious that you may gain far more by keeping manufacturers on your line of railway active and by the freights you thus earn than you can save by the margin of difference between foreign and English prices. What is true in that regard of the railway company is true of the country in larger measure. It applies the same principle throughout, and it might be far easier to do that, even if the tariffs were to raise the price of the goods, than to sustain men in idleness on the scale we have to pay at present. Would it not be better, instead of spending £70,000,000 a year on idle men, to keep them at their own job, when the skill of their hands would be preserved, and their self-respect maintained, and when revenue would be derived from the profit made by the industrialists, and also from the expenditure of the wages the men would earn? So far as the Free Trade theory is concerned, the logic of it entirely disappears as soon as you do not let the economic consequences lie where they fall. If you proceed to keep everyone who is out of work upon a definite and substantial scale, it is obvious that the whole theory comes to be a question as to whether it pays you better to keep people at work in their own trade, even with a tariff, than to have to assist them in idleness.
What has this House been doing in regard to unemployment? We had a speech from the Lord Privy Seal in which he advocated the use of steel sleepers, in order to give work to the steed trade, in
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preference to using timber from foreign sources. That can only help this country if we buy the steel sleepers here. That means that you create a State prohibition as against the foreign sleeper, because on the right hon. Gentleman's theory you ought to buy all these steel sleepers in Belgium. You can buy them to-day for 30s. a ton less than British steel sleepers. The right hon. Gentleman, accordingly, would favour this scheme if we bought the sleepers abroad, and much good that would do to British industry and employment.
Let me go a little further. There is a great Liberal scheme for creating employment, and £200,000,000 is to be spent on the roads. One of the considerations that was put forward by the right hon. Gentleman's leader was that the supply of the material and equipment would provide employment for people here. But it will only provide employment if the material and equipment are bought in this country. What becomes of the Liberal scheme if we are to buy the material and equipment abroad? Another of the schemes that are favoured for increasing employment is the reinstitution of the Trade Facilities Act. The very foundation of that Act is that you must purchase in this country, and many schemes have gone through upon that basis, where purchases were made of goods at far higher prices than you would have been able to obtain abroad. Every scheme that has been put before Parliament in connection with unemployment resolves itself into an attack on Free Trade.
There is only one more question that I have to answer. The right hon. Gentleman put the point as to whether we were to support food taxes, because he said food taxes were the only way in which you could make an arrangement with the Dominions. I want to ask him this. Is he in favour of taking off the Imperial preferences that already exist—the few preferences that we give to the Dominions, in return for which we get much larger preferences from them? They are all on edibles, whether you call them food or not—dried fruits, and things of that kind. I can tell him what will happen if he does. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a speech in the summer, he got an immediate reply from the Dominions as to what they would do

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if he took off the preferences. I was thankful that there was a Labour Government in Australia, because it could not be said that it was an attack by H Conservative Government there on a Labour Government here. Mr. Theodore, the Finance Minister of Australia, made the position plain at once. He said, "If you take off the preferences you give us, we shall take off the preferences we give you, and you will get the worst of that bargain," and everyone knows we should get the worst of it. Let us come back to the question of motor cars.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Are you not going to say anything about food taxes? Will you not answer it? You are running away.
Sir R. HORNE: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will often find that I run away. I want to know from him whether that is part of his policy.
Sir H. SAMUEL: I shall be glad to answer the question if he will promise to answer the question to which he was addressing himself. My answer is that these preferences are in the way of reduction of existing duties. I should be in favour of maintaining that reduction of existing duties, but I should not be in favour of increasing duties for the sake of giving a preference. Now perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will answer whether he is in favour of food taxes or not.
Sir R. HORNE: I will come to that in a moment I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's answer because it shows that we shall be able to go into the same Lobby against the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposes to take off the Imperial preferences. That greatly relieves my mind, because if we were to lose the preference we hold in the Australian market, our trade would disappear like snow from the dyke. Everyone knows who has any acquaintance with those markets that we only hold our position in them by reason of the preferences we are granted. At present we have very great difficulty in maintaining our position in the sale of motor cars in Australia as against America, although a half of our export goes to Australia. We have a 30 per cent. preference. If that preference came off, all our business in motor cars in Australia would disappear
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in a month. It would be confined to luxury cars pure and simple, and everyone knows it who knows anything about the motor car trade and the Australian market.
Now for the right hon. Gentleman's question about food taxes. I do not presume to answer for my leader. I am going to give him a Scotsman's answer. I will give him a question for his leader. I take it that, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had been here, he might have made the speech the right hon. Gentleman has made. At any rate, the question I will put is very material. It is said we cannot make any kind of arrangements for preference with our Dominions which do not involve food taxes. I wish to ask him this. Does he remember a Resolution that was passed, with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in the Chair, in 1917 at the Imperial Conference in which it was laid down that we ought to take every step possible in the future to make the British Empire independent of all the rest of the world in the matter of food and raw materials and essential industries? How-is that to be done? What is the plan of his leader in this matter? It went on to say this should be done by giving specially favourable treatment and facilities to each part of the Empire. [An HON. MEMBER: "That was the Coalition Government."] No, it was during the War. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman makes a remark sotto voce about the War, as if that ought to alter the conditions that were then laid down for the future guidance of the British Empire. That is the plan that was put forward. I ask him, in response to his question, how is that scheme going to be carried out, and when he tells us how he proposes to unite the Empire, and how he proposes to improve the future relations of the rest of the Empire, then perhaps we shall be able to get closer to grips.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Is the right hon. Gentleman in favour of food taxes or not?
Sir R. HORNE: I will answer that question when it becomes a practical one.
Sir H. SAMUEL: Then the right hon. Gentleman does run away.
Sir R. HORNE: No, I do not run away. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] The question will arise in due course. You might as well ask me whether I am in favour of parting with a pound without telling me what I am to get for it. Being a Scotsman I am not going to say till I see the counterpart. [Interruption.]
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Robert Young): There are a good many speakers who want to be heard. The right hon. Gentleman should be allowed to answer the question in his own way.
Sir R. HORNE: I beg pardon for detaining the House so long.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cast no reflection on anyone. I am only pointing out that a good many more Members want to speak and the interruptions are preventing the right hon. Gentleman from answering the question in his own way.
Sir R. HORNE: I am just about to finish. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India is going to reply and I wish that he were here now in order that I might put a question to him. Perhaps it will be reported to him. On the last occasion when he wound up a Debate in this House upon this question he said that we ought, on these matters, to give a lead to the world in the sane paths of economics. We have been giving that lead to the world for 75 years, but nobody has followed us. I want to ask him if he will kindly give a lead to India? What is the good of coming here with perorations about giving a lead to the world when the answer to his speech is that India puts up the duties against our exports of cotton goods?
Mr. MacLAREN: Is it in order for a Member of this House to discuss legislation which is entirely within the control of the Indian Government?
Sir R. HORNE: The point I am making is that it is absolutely futile and fruitless to talk about giving a lead to the world when the answer of India is a Bill putting up the duties against our cotton manufacturers. The country, in my view, is sick and tired of all that kind of cheap, vain and empty peroration. The country is now facing the realities which we have to endure through unemployment. We are told that some course will be taken which will find a remedy for the situation.
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They look on, and they see that we are trying vainly to find schemes to employ people who have been thrown out of work. Why have these people been thrown out of work? Very large numbers of them because we have been importing the very kind of goods that they make. The country is coming more and more to a realisation of the fact that all this is wasted effort as compared with the perfectly simple means which every other country in the world takes to defend its employment. I feel absolutely convinced that this truth is sinking more deeply into the hearts and brains of our people and that those who are sitting in corners muttering the shibboleths of old, will find themselves before long swept away by the revival of common-sense.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) is going, because I waited for his speech, and I want to reply to one of the points in it. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) on his extraordinary dexterity. He was speaking of himself being a Scotsman, and I daresay that he remembers the early days when he used to go fishing. Has he ever caught an eel on his hook when fishing for trout? Does he realise how it twists itself round, with its slime and its wriggles and coils? That is how he answered the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen, and that is how he will have to answer it, I suppose, on the platforms of the country. If this Vote of Censure were to be carried, how would the right hon. Gentleman answer the electorate on the platforms in the provinces? Hon. Members on this side of the House have enjoyed the combat between the two allies of this week. That shows, I think, the ineptitude of the right hon. Gentleman, the real author of this Vote of Censure. If he wanted to destroy the Government—and we all know that he does—surely to goodness he could have framed a Vote of Censure which would have had the support of the Liberal party. Really, had it been intended to defeat the Government on this occasion, there would have been nothing about Safeguarding or Imperial Preference. They would not have seized on the flimsy grievance because the Chancellor of the Exchequer

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refused to disclose his Budget. They would have put down something on unemployment, and there would have been an end of it. The fact of the matter is that the subject which we have here shows that the party opposite are not even yet ready to face the electorate.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead made some extraordinary statements. I want to bring the House back to actual realities after the pleasant "sham fight" we have witnessed. One of the extraordinary things which he said was when he described the prosperity of France. Last autumn I was in France, and I went into the rural districts and talked to the farmers. They talked very freely, and they said that they were ruined. Why? Because they had had a most wonderful, plentiful harvest. The right hon. Gentleman will have to face up to this, as to whether this country is being ruined because there is an abundance, because there is plenty and cheapness, because people are so hostile to this country that they send in cheap goods, cheaper than they cost to make. That is the situation we have to face and the out-of-date Protection of the party opposite will be perfectly helpless and useless to solve it.
The Lord Privy Seal told us—and there was no voice raised on the other side to gainsay it; in fact one of the hon. Gentleman on the back benches opposite said that he thought that the right hon. Gentleman's speech might have been made by his own former Minister of Labour—that one of the reasons for unemployment in the trades concerned in this Vote of Censure was the complete collapse of world prices of raw materials, the raw materials needed for our own manufactures. The reason, according to hon. Gentlemen opposite and indeed to the Lord Privy Seal is that the raw materials of manufacture are too cheap and people are afraid of a still further fall in prices and dare not buy. As long as you have that system you can have as many tariffs as you like, or you can sweep away all of them, or you can produce a complete system of Protection, or you can have your Empire Free Trade, with which, I thought, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead was flirting a few weeks ago, but you will not
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cure that state of affairs when abundance and plenty and cheapness mean ruin.
Mr. DIXEY: What is your cure?
Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I will tell you. I must, however, say that I have taken part in many censure debates during the time I have been in this House—
Sir R. HORNE: I hope the hon. and gallant Member will forgive me but I shall have to leave now.
Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: I am much obliged to the right hon. Member for his courtesy. This is the first time I have defended the Government on a Vote of Censure, and it is an extraordinarily easy task. Hon. Members have brought forward this Motion because of the refusal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to disclose his Budget. That is the reason they give; and they say that it is causing uncertainty in trade. If uncertainty in trade is being caused because my right hon. Friend did not disclose his Budget last week or the week before then equal uncertainty must have been caused months before, and there will be equal uncertainty before the Budget after next. If it is right for my right hon. Friend to disclose his Budget this year in advance why is it not equally right for him to disclose it in 1931 and 1932, and why was it wrong for the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) not to tell us that he was going to put 4d. on the Petrol Duty I Why did not the right hon. Gentleman explain his policy with regard to a return to the gold standard before he did it? We are blamed for the present unemployment but I maintain that this premature return to the gold standard was a contributing cause to the distress in the coal-mining industry and had something to do with the General Strike which occurred in 1926.
The fact of the matter is this. The Government inherited from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer an empty till, a pile of bills and, far from helping us to clear up the mess which they left and to arrest the unemployment figures they have done nothing but hamper and obstruct in this House. [Interruption.] This Vote of Censure is the most futile that I have ever heard. It is wasting a great deal of useful Parliamentary time. It is not serious. It is not a

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serious attempt to turn out the Government. It is simply moved in order to satisfy the pique of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer because my right hon. Friend had the better of him at Question Time a few days ago and made him look extremely foolish. [Interruption.] That is perfectly true. It is put down in pique, and the right hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. S. Baldwin) knows that that is so. He did not attack the Government. In his delightful way he gave us an interesting historical lecture and tried to get some of us to agree with his extraordinary policy of Protection. The voice was the voice of Jacob, but the hand was the hand of Esau, and Esau is the atavistic Member for Epping Forest. It is the most incompetent Motion ever placed on the Order Paper, and most unfitted to achieve its object. The hon. Member for Cumberland (Mr. Dixey) could not do worse. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite are going to vote for this Motion. I ask them to tell us what their policy is; how they stand in regard to food taxes, to Imperial Preference to taxes on food and raw materials, without which you cannot have Protection. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Epping is not present. I notice that he was in a more friendly atmosphere a few days ago, in front of the younger and less experienced audience of the Oxford Union. He carried his Motion in that home of lost causes. The last time I spoke there we carried the Motion, somewhat to my surprise—[Interruption.] Listen to what the right hon. Member for Epping, speaking among his own friends, said:
"No party at present has the key to the economic situation. All parties are seeking the best way out."
Those are the words of the right hon. Gentleman. He admits that he himself has not the key to the economic situation, and it is obvious that he has not. He has no policy.
Mr. DIXEY: We have not heard your policy yet?
Mr. W. J. BROWN: What is the key?
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I say to hon. Members opposite that we have the key to the economic policy, but they are jamming and holding the door against us and we cannot put it into force. But we have the people behind us,
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or we shall have when they have an opportunity of putting us into power, and we will use the key and open the door. My hon. Friend asks what is the key. I will tell him. At the present moment the greatest need of this country is to rationalise the time of the House of Commons and our method of procedure in order to avoid the waste of Parliamentary time, and the waste of a whole day like this on a useless and ill-considered motion of censure. That is one of the things we want to do. [Interruption.]
My hon. Friend asks: what is the key? I will put the matter in a sentence. You have this extraordinary situation. You can go to Leicester and see a queue of men lining up with worn-out old boots. They are unemployed bootmakers. If you go to the villages you will see agricultural labourers lounging about. They are unemployed; and they will go hungry to bed at night because they will have nothing to eat. [Interruption.] Yes, that is what they will do. Their children will go to bed hungry because they have no work to do, and yet a few minutes omnibus ride from my own constituency you will find idle and out of cultivation large stretches of land. [Interruption.] What is the use of all the argument between the right hon. Member for Darwen and the Hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). There is no unemployment in the hon. and gallant Member's constituency. You have these agricultural workers unable to till the fields, and these unemployed bootmakers with their worn-out boots. You have out-of-work dock labourers and fishermen; and you will go on having them under the present system, as you have them in America to-day. I could quote the extraordinary statements made in a leading article in the "Times" last week, which I hope hon. Members read, in regard to rationalisation in America. You will never get away from this situation until you introduce and accept the economic policy of this party; that is of producing for use not for profit.
Mr. SOMERSET: I naturally feel a little nervous on the occasion of first rising to address this House. It is something to which I have looked forward with dread. The subject under discussion is one upon which I may throw a little light from practical experience. I

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propose to deal solely with the question of Safeguarding. I know my trade very well. I served my apprenticeship to the linen trade in Belfast. I am the son of a working man; I started at business when I was very young and to-day I give direct employment to over 1,000 workers. I have been more than a manufacturer. I have been a worker and I have been a salesman and I can say that the greatest difficulty which the manufacturer has today is in selling his production. I have heard a lot of talk to-day which has nothing to do with the question of Safeguarding. We have heard theories about wages being cheap in some places and high in others. I say that we do not pay too much in this country. I have known what it was in my own home. We sat in the kitchen and, if we wanted to go into the drawing-room, we stayed where we were. I know what that side of the question means, and I tell the House that we, the manufacturers as a whole, in supporting Safeguarding have no idea of reducing the wages of the workers.
I can assure hon. Members that as far as the North of Ireland is concerned we are anxious that the workers should have good wages. We have in Ulster a body of men and women who would give anything to get work. They hate losing their independence and they want to get work instead of getting the dole. I come here to this market in London and I try to sell the production which is turned out in Belfast by myself and other manufacturers under the best of conditions and at good wages, and what do I find? I find all sorts of foreign goods on that market—goods from Belgium and Czechoslovakia and from nearly all the countries in the world. Why is it that we cannot sell our goods in competition with these foreign goods? It is because of this question of wages. The linen trade is a very old established business. We have over 100 years of experience in making linen and I know of no business in which there have been such changes. In the old days when a housekeeper wanted a pair of sheets she bought six or seven yards of cloth and "made up" the material herself. To-day everything is sold "made-up." That means more employment. It means that further operations are necessary in order that we may present our
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goods ready for consumption in the home market and it means additional wages—wages at a scale which these other people who are competing with us do not pay.
We have, roughly, 100,000 workers in the linen and allied trades in Belfast and over 16 per cent. of these are unemployed. I think it is a very sad thing, a very grievous thing, a very wrong thing that we should allow the foreigners to come in and that goods produced under conditions so different from our own and produced at wages which are in some cases 50 per cent. lower than ours, should be allowed to come in here so that we have to compete with them on terms so unequal that, indeed, we are very often beaten. In the stores in the City of London and in the West End there are piles of goods from abroad made under the conditions which I have indicated-conditions which do not obtain with our manufacturers. In addition to the trade directly concerned there are the allied trades, and, apart from everything else, we in Belfast are important customers of Lancashire. Yet we have to compete with the foreigners and we find, as I have said, that it is entirely a question of wages.
Under the Trade Board in Belfast we pay our girl workers 6¾d. an hour for a 47-hour week and I find that in Belgium it runs out at 3.4, in France 4.7, and in Germany 4.92. It is quite impossible for any manufacturers, with this difference in wages, to compete against foreign products, and most of us are working hard and getting very little for it at the present time. To give an example of what is happening I need only mention that I have sat at a table here in the British House of Commons and having afternoon tea and I have found that the table-cloth was made in Czechoslovakia. That is a great shame and disgrace and, despite all the talk about buying in the cheapest market which we heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), I think when it comes to a situation like that which I have described, it is playing a very low-down game on the home manufacturer. I hope that some measure of Protection will be given to trades like my own, in which a great number of people are employed, so as to enable us to carry on our work with a reasonable amount of comfort.
Mr. SANDHAM: I have been wondering since I entered the Chamber what is the grievance of the Conservative party. I am puzzled because I see no ground for complaint on their part. To what extent does the policy of the present Government in regard to this matter differ from the policy of their own Government? If there is no difference, why this attempt at a Vote of Censure which I feel sure must fail? Has the Lord Privy Seal put forward any particular ideals or policies in contradistinction to—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Then why this Vote of Censure? Hon. Members cannot have it both ways. I wish to emphasise the point of view of some of us who believe that Votes of Censure of this description on tariff policy and criticisms from the Liberal benches on Free Trade do not very much matter. It is merely a question of Tweedledum and Tweedledee so far as the working-classes are concerned, and for them I want to speak. Trade in the main has been carried on for years on the lines of what are known as private enterprise of glorious history—with a great deal of the private, and not much of the enterprise. It has meant that the interests of those people who produce the wealth of the country have suffered very materially. Whether it be under Protection or under Free Trade, we have poverty. We have slums in Liverpool, plenty of them, and we have Free Trade. There are poverty and unemployment in protected countries, where there is what hon. Members desire to emphasise by this Motion. Where you have trade and commerce run for private profit, we are bound to have limitation of purchasing power—
Sir GEORGE JONES: So you have in Russia.
Mr. SANDHAM: Russia, I believe, will be on its feet long before this country gets on its feet. It has been emphasised by an hon. Member that we are suffering from abundance. What does that mean? It does not mean that there is something wrong with our system of production. It means that there is something wrong with our facility to purchase what we produce. It does seem ironical that in this 20th century we can find that what we are suffering from in the main is that there is too much of the goods produced, and not sufficient of the facilities to consume. What is the position? The man who
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makes the best hand-sewn boots and shoes does not wear them; he is found wearing cheaper ones. The man who builds the detached villa does not live in a detached villa; he lives in the slums.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am sorry I have to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he must relate his remarks to the Motion before the House.
Mr. SANDHAM: I bow to your Ruling, but I am supporting the Amendment—
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no Amendment before the House.
Mr. SANDHAM: I am not supporting the Motion, but I hope that I may support the Amendment.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no Amendment before the House.
Mr. SANDHAM: I desire to emphasise what are the effects of our experience of Free Trade. The position to-day is that the producers of the wealth of this country have not the facilities to enjoy that which they produce, even under Free Trade. In Germany and in other protected countries, they have not that facility, and what we want is a system that will enable us to have not only the facility to produce extensively, but the facility to have the benefits all round of that which the community produces. That is what we on these benches are after. May I ask the believers in tariff policy and the believers in Free Trade policy how it is that, under either of these systems, we have the appalling amount of poverty which is the lot of most people who work hard by hand or brain to produce the whole of the wealth of this country?
Both under Free Trade and a tariff system we find poverty among only one section of the community. We do not find poverty among the middle classes or among the upper classes. We find it only among the working classes. [Interruption.] It is quite true. I hope that subsequent speakers will point out where we have poverty among the middle classes in the real sense of the word, or poverty among the upper classes, in the same way that we have poverty among the working classes. We may have poverty in regard to mental outlook, but let me emphasise the point I am making. I noticed in today's "Daily Mail" a picture of the idle rich, with nothing to do and plenty of time in which to do it, examining dresses

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worn by mannequins. At the same time the women in Yorkshire, who are producing wealth in this country, are having their wages reduced. The effect of that is that they are unable to purchase even the dresses that they need to maintain the standard of efficiency appropriate to their position. There you have anomalies, whether it be under Free Trade or under Tariff Reform. We want to produce things under a system that will enable people to consume what they produce. I only wish that some of those advocates who have spoken in favour of this Vote of Censure would elucidate to the House how they can themselves believe in a policy of making things because people need them. After all, that eliminates entirely the idea of profit making, which obtains both under Tariff Reform and under Free Trade. I hope someone will he able to tell us how it is possible by that method to get the goods which are consumable into the households of those people who need them.
Sir H. CROFT: I am sure the House has been very much interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Sandham) and perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the hon. Member for North Belfast (Mr. Somerset) upon his admirable maiden speech. The hon. Member for Kirkdale asked one or two questions and he asked why we cannot consume what we produce. The whole object of the Resolution before the House is that we should see that the articles we consume are produced in our own country, and that would provide a wage fund wherewith our people could purchase those goods. The hon. Member asked what was our ground of complaint? Our ground of complaint is that there are 1,500,000 people unemployed in this country, and that is a situation with which even the Lord Privy Seal is unable to deal.
We have been asked what is the difference in regard to this policy between the present Government and the last Government. The last Government safeguarded about a dozen different industries, and I think they safeguarded too few of them. I do not know whether hon. Members opposite agree with that statement. The difference is that we saved those industries, and we were successful in assisting them, while the party
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opposite are apparently prepared to open the floodgates of foreign competition, and let in any kind of goods whether they are produced under sweated conditions or not or whether they are produced against the whole spirit of trade union conditions. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the millions of unemployed in America?"] The hon. Member will realise that that is a temporary state of unemployment, and it is a greater proportion of the population than is the case in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Smaller!"] Yes, I mean a smaller proportion.
I should like to offer a few remarks with regard to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the Press campaign in the country during the last year or two, but my view is that Press campaigns in recent years have not been friendly to anybody. There have been many criticisms directed against my leader, and many of those associated with the Conservative party, but to suggest that the Conservative party had anything to do with the Press campaign against the right hon. Gentleman seems to me to show a lack of knowledge of the actual state of things in this country at the present time.
Mr. WALLHEAD: It is the chiding of friends.
9.0 p.m.
Sir H. CROFT: I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Merthyr for that observation. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) referred to the question of wages, and I will deal with that matter very briefly. The right hon. Gentleman quoted Continental countries where he said that wages were lower than in this country and he implored those countries to make a pause. The right hon. Gentleman took the four countries with the lowest wages, but why did he omit the four countries which compared most closely with the conditions in this country, namely, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States of America, which incidentally happened to have the highest wages, and they are four of the most highly protected countries in the world. When the friends and supporters of the Government desire to emigrate from this country, do they choose the low tariff

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countries in Europe? No, they go almost always to the most highly protected countries in the world.
I would like the attention of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Labour to this point. On 3rd February, 1929, the Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote a most powerful article in the "Sunday Sun" entitled "This Ghastly Mess," referring to employment in this country. The inference in that article was that the ghastly mess might be changed if there were a change of Government. He said: "This is a most gloomy story, but fortunately this is not the whole side of the picture." I am not quoting his exact words. He said, "Happily, there is great employment and increasing employment in industries like those supplying chemicals, electrical appliances, wireless, motors, gramophones, and artificial silk. They are prosperous, and hundreds of thousands of persons are employed in those trades." It is an interesting fact that out of the six industries which he pointed out as saving the unemployment situation in this country four are highly protected, another is protected in many of its most important branches, and the sixth can be described, I think, as more or less sheltered.
The ghastly mess of 1929 has become more ghastly by an increase of 170,000 in the number of the unemployed to-day. From the day when the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his fatal pronouncement about these industries, which he then described as prosperous, they have suffered most of all the industries of this country. The figures of unemployment were mentioned by the Chancellor. We might have thought that the motor industry and other safeguarded industries were doing well in the matter of unemployment, but that is entirely wrong. The figures for January of this year, when compared with those for January of last year, show that unemployment throughout the whole of the country has increased by 4 per cent., but in the motor car trade it has increased by 8 per cent.; in lace by 1 per cent.; hosiery, which includes so largely artificial silk and silk stockings, 1.9 per cent.; rubber, which is almost entirely tyres, I think, 2.7 per cent.; and silk and artificial silk industries proper, 5.4 per cent. Those are very remarkable facts. Every one of
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those industries was expanding steadily till the change of policy was announced.
Mr. DUNCAN: Nonsense.
Sir H. CROFT: A year ago the President of the Board of Trade gave me figures showing that in every one of those industries the position had improved. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "What, after all, does this matter? This is only 3 per cent. of the working population." Is it realised that in using that figure he has forgotten the motor industry and the artificial silk industry, and has referred merely to the safeguarded industries? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to show that he was absolutely faithful to the principles of a Cobdenite Whig, and was not prepared to listen to the voice of Labour, rushed straight into his blunder when this question arose without considering what the consequences were going to be to a very large number of people. Before showing some of the appalling results of his policy I want to ask the representative of the Government who is going to reply a few questions. I want to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer denies that until his fatal statement was made employment had greatly increased in the whole of the safeguarded industries, with the exception of two?
Mr. KELLY: Which are the two?
Sir H. CROFT: There are two industries where there has not been any great increase in employment, though I think I am probably right in saying that it has been stable. In the manufacture of gas mantles, I think employment is about the same. In the manufacture of lace it might, on the face of it, look as if there had been no increase, butt in fact the hours of work, which represented 5½ hours short-time when the duty was imposed, have now so far improved that only 1½ hours short-time is worked; and in Nottingham last year £30,000 more wages were paid than in the year before the duties. The second question I ask is, Does he deny that the price of goods in any single safeguarded industry-has risen, except in the smallest and most insignificent one; and that in the case of 75 per cent. of the goods the price has been reduced, and reduced very considerably? Thirdly, does he deny that, far from the industries becoming inefficient as a result of this Protection,

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their production has increased far more rapidly even than the employment in them? Fourthly, does he deny that in spite of the greatly increased production—and in some of those industries, though their plant works full time, they have been able to attend only to their home trade—the total volume of exports of safeguarded and protected products show a very great increase since those duties were reimposed in 1925? I do not think that will be denied.
Take the figures of January last. The exports of the products of the safeguarded industries and the goods subject to the McKenna and silk duties have gone up 25 per cent., putting them all together, whilst our exports of non-safeguarded goods have actually declined in the same period by 20 per cent. Does he deny that some 50 new factories have been built in this country for those industries—many of them foreign factories—and can he name any other industries which show the same kind of expansion during that time?
Lastly, does he deny that over £11,000,000 of revenue has been contributed by our foreign competitors without any ill effects to any section of His Majesty's subjects? If the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Minister who is going to reply is unable to dispute the correctness of my main contention, the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer becomes a mere wanton political outrage. What is most alarming is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the first time that I can remember in the 20 years I have been in this House, has refused to allow the business community of this country to put their views before him on this important matter. So far as I can gather, every important body of employers in this country has declared that it would be most unfortunate—many of them described it as disastrous—if these duties were removed, and the right hon. Gentleman has not only treated the employers with contumely, but he has treated also the trade unionists and the trade unions concerned with utter contempt. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Silver-town (Mr. J. Jones) apparently is not aware of the fact that in every one of
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these industries the trade union leaders supported the application for Safeguarding.
Mr. J. JONES: On a point of Order. I think I know as much about the trade union movement as the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I want to say to him—
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is not a point of Order.
Mr. JONES: I should like to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman if he will give the names of the trade union leaders who have supported this policy.
Sir H. CROFT: I shall be very glad to oblige the hon. Gentleman as far as I am able. I may, perhaps, inform him straight away that the 14 trade unions in the lace trade requested the President of the Board of Trade to receive a deputation, or at least to set up a Committee in accordance with the Report of the Balfour Committee, which was set up by the hon. Gentleman's own Prime Minister.
Mr. JONES: That has nothing to do with it.
Sir H. CROFT: I leave it to the judgment of the House. In every industry, since this controversy arose, trade unionists have been pressing this case, and I believe that up to date the Chancellor of the Exchequer has received no deputation from any industry on this subject. When a deputation was asked for, as in the case of the cutlery trade unions, the right hon. Gentleman's reply was that it would be merely a waste of time, and that he only had time to receive a deputation from the semi-defunct Free Trade Union, which all the most prominent members, or at any rate many of the most prominent members, have long since left, having become converted to Safeguarding. I know something about this matter, because, when I was chairman of the Tariff Reform League, and was asked who were the men who ought to be followed around because of their damaging Free Trade speeches, I was given five great names in this country, and the owners of those names have all become completely converted to the policy which I am supporting this evening. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will be the first to admit that the only people whom we despise in this country are those who cannot move with

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the times. We have the greatest admiration for the man who has the grit to say, "I see that my country's needs are greater than my own consistencies," and who is ready to cross the Floor of the House if necessary? Since the names have been asked for, they were as follows: Sir Alfred Mond—a fairly able man, pace the hon. Gentleman opposite; Mr. Hamar Greenwood; Colonel John Ward; Mr. McKenna; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). In my time they were always regarded as the most effective platform speakers in the Free Trade Union. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may laugh if they like, but every one of these Gentlemen has been converted to the ideas which we are putting before the House this evening.
I would once more remind the House that in the Yorkshire textile industry the union joined with the employers in order to make an application for Safeguarding. They went before the Committee and proved their case, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer threw the Report into the waste-paper basket. Since then, as we all know, in that great industry a serious reduction in wages has had to be contemplated. Then there is the case of agriculture, in which all branches of the industry have asked the Government to act, but they have done nothing. We have given an explicit pledge that when we are returned next month—or is it the month after?—we will guarantee the price of wheat and will introduce machinery for preventing the dumping of oats into this country. I know that right hon. Gentlemen opposite and hon. Gentlemen behind them are telling agriculturists that nothing can be done, and that they must rely upon Free Trade and cheapness, but I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen allowed himself to be drawn into a controversy with my right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home). He asked boldly, what about food duties? I would ask him, does he support the words of his Leader in this House in the Debate on Free Trade within the Empire when he declared for an embargo on bounty-fed foreign wheat? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would like to answer that
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question? Apparently not, so I think we can pass on.
When we see that trade union leaders in every industry concerned have been asking the Government to stay their hands, and when we see how the Confederation of Iron and Steel Workers and other great unions in this country have been ignored, it is no wonder that we believe that there is a growing rift on the benches opposite between the trade union members and the Cobdenite intelligentsia who have stolen so many of the plums that are on the Front Bench. They sit there day after day, like Canute, bidding the waves of unemployment recede. No wonder there is this feeling of cleavage when we realise that, for every worker that the Lord Privy Seal has succeeded in putting into employment—and I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman, because he has an immense task—the Chancellor of the Exchequer by his mad action with regard to these industries has succeeded in putting at least three persons on the dole. The havoc committed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer commenced from the very moment when he made that speech.
It will be remembered that just before the Election there was a good deal of activity in the industrial world. Among the cases which came to my notice in May, 1919, was that of a Chemnitz firm who were going to build a silk factory in this country at a cost of £50,000. Another firm was going to spend £100,000, and yet another was going to spend from £200,000 to £250,000, and had already given orders for the steel work. All those orders were cancelled the moment the present Government were returned and the right hon. Gentleman made his famous speech. [Interruption.] I am sorry that hon. Members cheer that, because it seems to be rather bad for the employment of people in this country. Messrs. Courtauld, as hon. Gentlemen know, were about to increase their production greatly at Wolverhampton, but I believe I am right in saying that that has been postponed. They were about to build a factory in the constituency of the Secretary of State for War. I do not know whether they have been able to push ahead with it, but it seems to me rather unlikely when they have been forced by the uncertainties of the situation and the lack of buyers to dismiss thousands of workers, I hope only

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temporarily, during the last two or three months.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Branston artificial silk factory, and I dare say his facts may have been correct. He did say that a few months ago they had great assets, and to-day they have all gone. That may have been due to bad finance, but, since every firm in the silk and artificial silk industry at the present moment is suffering the gravest trouble, is it not possible, since those funds have been dissipated since the right hon. Gentleman made his announcement, that he may have hastened the end of that company? Moreover, companies have been prevented from building factories in this country, and others have taken and are taking their branches abroad because they find the position so difficult.
Mr. KELLY: Will the hon. Baronet give the name of one company that has taken a branch abroad?
Sir H. CROFT: I do not want to detain the House, but I am always anxious to oblige the right hon. Gentleman. I will give him one case. On the 21st June, 1929, I received this letter:
"The return of the Socialists, with Mr. Snowden as their Chancellor, to power, would appear to have postponed any prospect of the extension of Safeguarding indefinitely, and in consequence I am engaged at present in negotiating for establishing a factory in Cologne, to supply the demands of such of our customers to whom the comparative cheapness of goods made under German conditions appeals, and to fight the German manufacturer in his own market behind his tariff walls. It is the only line of defence left to us as the possessors of a valuable goodwill which has been undermined by unfair competition."
[Interruption.] I do not want to detain the House. I will give the hon. Member the name if he wants it, but he knows me well enough to know that I would not make a statement like that without authority. I do not want to mention the name of the company in the House, but I will give it to the Minister if he desires it.
In the silk and rayon industries of this country there is the very gravest concern. I think it is generally agreed that in several Continental countries the wages are only 50 per cent. of the wages paid in this country. The amount of protection afforded by the Silk and Artificial
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Silk Duties is just sufficient to enable our industries in this country to live against that competition. Take it away, and you have immediately the same situation as is created by the bounty-fed wheat about which the Liberal party are so concerned. What is not realised is that the suffering is not only in these industries themselves. There is an enormous number of persons in Lancashire and Yorkshire who are also directly concerned, owing to the fact that in the cotton and woollen industries of this country a very great number of workers are engaged on mixing processes using cotton, wool and artificial silk, and it is estimated that something like 200,000 to 300,000 workers in this country are dependent upon the artificial silk industry alone.
It is small wonder that Manchester is up in arms. I dare say hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that the committee of the Cotton Spinners and Manufacturers Association can hardly be called a Protectionist organisation, or a branch of the Empire Industries Association. They employ something like 200,000 operatives in Lancashire, and they passed a very emphatic resolution drawing attention to the fact that a large number of looms which would otherwise be running have been stopped, and operatives rendered idle, by the uncertainty that prevails as to the future of the duties. The committee expressed the view that the time was inopportune for the removal of these duties, and, in asking for their retention, urged the Chancellor of the Exchequer to help to increase employment in this section of the industry by making an announcement on the matter at the earliest possible moment. Nobody can say that is a biased political organisation. These are men who all their lives have fought for the principle of Free Trade. If the walls of the citadel of Free Trade Jericho are falling at last, the Chancellor of the Exchequer can lay the flattering unction to his soul that he was the trumpeter who brought about their collapse.
It is the same with other industries. Time will only permit me to touch lightly upon them. Take the fabric glove industry Employment has doubled in five years—a very remarkable fact—yet at present they have been brought to a very difficult position, and all of a sudden the expansion

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of the industry has been checked. That is hardly surprising when you look at the Labour conditions in foreign countries. I see the Minister for Labour sitting there. I asked her three months ago to tell me what were the wages of glove workers in Germany. She returned a very polite answer that she had to refer the question to Geneva. She has referred it to Geneva, and a few days ago she sent me the answer. It was that Geneva does not know. What an appalling thing that our British glove industry is to be subjected to a reversal of this duty when the Front Bench have not even taken the trouble to find out what are the wages in Germany.
Then look at lace, which is to be the first victim of the right hon. Gentleman. Is it realised that for every penny paid in female labour by the Continental producers, we pay 2⅝d. in this country? If you take off the duty, how can the trade live? In the lace industry which was in such a difficult condition, production and sale in this country have gone up from a low figure to a remarkable figure. Everybody will agree it is a remarkable change in the position. Everybody who realises that will agree that it would be madness to take the duty off. There is no reason, commercial or economic, for this folly. One asks what is the motive of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? I have come to the conclusion that it is that he has become so obsessed with international ideas that he is terrified lest by putting British workers into work, he displaces some of his foreign friends. I will substantiate that remark. Take the case of the Wrapping Paper Duty, which has really been too light—only 16 per cent. Nevertheless, it has been a great success and has provided new machinery, costing £1,500,000, which has saved the industry from destruction. The Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote to a Norwegian magazine, published in Oslo only last year, and this is what he said:
"I regret to hear that the recent imposition of a duty on wrapping paper by Great Britain has had an injurious effect on Norwegian trade."
Apparently, he did not realise that what he regretted for the Norwegian workers was a matter of congratulation for British workers, British industry, and the British taxpayer. What is the motive of our iron Chancellor? He has said that, whatever
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happens, we must not depress the spirits of our Norwegian friends by giving work which used to be given to them to our own countrymen, oblivious of the fact that Norway imposes a duty on practically every manufactured article that we send to her.
In conclusion, I desire to say that we have to consider this evening not only votes, consistency, and so on, we have to consider the fate of our country. I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will believe that some of us are very sincere in our views. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have tried and done their best, but they know they have failed and are at their wits end to know what to do in this grave situation. I know some hon. Gentlemen opposite are really moved on this question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) has said he would use the British Navy to sink any ship bringing goods into this country produced under lower labour conditions or longer hours. When he and his left wing hold that view, I urge upon the whole party opposite that the time has come when they know they have failed, and that they should try the only policy which can give hope to our million and a-half workers. If they have failed, as every Government in the past has failed, why not give a trial to this policy and remove the despair which they know is haunting the homes of the poorest people in this country?
Mr. NOEL BAKER: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he rose to speak this afternoon, said that this Resolution consisted of three parts. Before he sat down I think there was only one part that was left; the other two had been smashed to smithereens. I do not desire to say anything on the subject of the uncertainty which is alleged to have been created by the attitude he has taken up. I could say a great deal upon it from the evidence I have myself collected from the constituency I represent. But at this late hour I want to confine my attention to the broad issue which has arisen, to the broad issue which is to confront the country in years to come—the issue as to whether we are to plunge deeper and deeper into Protection, as hon. Members opposite now desire to do. I have desired to take part in this Debate because the constituency which I have the honour to represent is

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one which has a vital interest in this policy of Safeguarding which hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to extend. I sit for Coventry, an ancient and honourable city, in which there is hardly a factory which does not receive the protection which the Safeguarding and McKenna Duties, so-called, now give.
I think it is an interesting, and indeed an astonishing, fact that at the last Election 70 per cent. of the citizens of Coventry who cast their votes, voted against the maintenance of these duties. I know that in the first Debate on this subject which took place in July last, it was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) that they cast their votes because they were in doubt as to what we meant on our side in regard to these duties. [Interruption.] If hon. Gentlemen desire to go into that matter, I can quite easily show from the papers and manifestos of motor manufacturers asking the electors to vote against us, that our attitude at that time was absolutely, categorically and plainly against the maintenance of Protection. It was with a full understanding of what we meant that the electors cast their votes. They cast their votes because they were satisfied that in modern conditions it was impossible for our country to flourish except under a system of Free Trade.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Home) spoke of the resolution adopted by the Imperial Conference in 1917. I submit that that resolution for Imperial self-sufficiency was based upon a war conception and that the whole course of international trade, in tariff countries, as in non-tariff countries, has proved that international trade is going forward, that the nations are now more and more closely linked together in their economic life, and that if you try to raise barriers against the development of international trade you are trying to do something which it is impossible to do.
The people of Coventry recognised that so long as it is true that in our country one person in every three is living by his or her share in the processes of international trade, international finance, and international transportation, it would be absolutely mad for our country to go in for a policy of trade barriers which would
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diminish the volume of that international trade. That would have been ground enough for the votes of the electorate of Coventry. But there were other grounds, more important than that. There was especially this: that they were not content with the results of the Safeguarding policy which has been pursued, and I say that with the utmost deliberation and realising what my words involve.
The right hon. Member for Hillhead spoke a good deal, in the course of his admirable speech, on the history of the motor trade in this country, and I want to follow what he said and to give a different explanation of the facts. A very large part of the case which is made for Protection from the other side rests upon the history of the McKenna Duties, or, as the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) told us we ought to call them now, the Churchill Duties. They say that, because the production of motor cars in this country—I take the figures of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, and I take the total figure, which is the only significant figure—because the production has risen from 73,000 units in 1922 to 211,000 units in 1928, therefore the prosperity of this industry, and this expansion, are due to the duties which have been placed upon foreign cars. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. I submit that that argument has no foundation. The motor industry is an expanding trade, and you might just as well say that the increase in wireless licences from 0 to 3,000,000 was due to the imposition of the licence duties which listeners had to pay.
But let us take their statistics, and let us analyse them. The right hon. Gentleman said that the motor industry had advanced since these duties were put on as never before. But the motor industry did not begin in 1922. Let me take these figures of the Society of Motor Manufacturers. From the year 1907 to the year 1913 the production of cars in this country increased from 12,000 a year to 44,000, an increase of 400 per cent. in those six years, under conditions of Free Trade; and everybody knows that we had in those days a great export trade, that our manufacturers were exporting 25–35 per cent. of their total output, and that our cars stood high in every market, including in those days the market of the United States.

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Or let us take even those post-War years on which the right hon. Gentleman has based his case. If he will examine the statistics of development from 1920 onwards, he will see, what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon, that the two years in which the greatest expansion was made were the two years in which there was a short period of Free Trade. There were six months of Free Trade in 1924, and five months, if I remember rightly, in 1925, and in those two years there was an expansion from 88,000 to 153,000, an expansion of nearly 80 per cent. in two years. In the following three years, to 1028, there was an expansion from 153,000 to 211,000, or under 30 per cent. for those three years. What was even more striking was the result in the export of motor cars, to which the manufacturers attach such importance that they have said, in a recent manifesto, that their trade can never be healthy until the export trade is largely developed. What happened in those two years? The exports increased from 6,000 in 1923 to 29,000 in 1925, an increase of 500 per cent., whereas in the three years which followed there was an increase altogether of less than 10 per cent.
I do not want to go on and to show by detailed quotations from newspaper reports, as I could, or by the statistics of unemployment, as I could, that in those two years the condition of the trade was healthier than it ever was before and healthier than it ever has been since. I admit that there were certain special factors at work and that hon. Members opposite are entitled to say so. There was the introduction of the small car, which made a great difference. I admit that it did, and our statistics do not prove conclusively that everything is on our side. But they do prove this: that the taking off of the duty did not produce the disastrous effects which hon. Members opposite said that they would produce, and they prove, on the contrary, that the policy which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the courage to pursue had an overwhelming success.
They had that success because in the year 1924 the motor manufacturers were induced to bring down their prices. We remember how Mr. Morris said it was impossible for him to produce at any less price than that at which he was producing; but that was before the Chancellor
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of the Exchequer took off the duties. The duties came off, and Mr. Morris reduced his prices by anything from £53 to £23 on different models. The average reduction over the whole trade was 10 per cent. for that year, and it has only averaged 1.6 per cent. for the years which have followed. Owing to the removal of the duties, the prices came down, and the manufacturers enormously enlarged their markets.
That leads me to the main thing that I want to say to-night, and it is this, that the workers in the motor industry are not content with the results that these duties have given. They are not content, because while these duties may have safeguarded the profits of the employers, they have not safeguarded the interests of the workers, and the interests of the workers in this industry are being sacrificed year by year under the régime which now exists. Why do I say that? I say that because in the motor industry, as everyone knows, there is a great deal of unemployment, and I could quote figures from trade union and official statistics to show that unemployment in each year since 1924 has been a great deal higher, if you take the total days per annum, than it was during the year when the duties were off. They have had no rise of wages of any kind, and they have had many a cut in the piece rates which they are paid. And that is not the worst of it. The worst of it is this, that under the system which now exists the workers are subjected to a continual alternation of short time and overtime. For four months in the year they have to work much harder than anybody ought to work, for 10, 11 and 12 hours a day, but for the remaining months they often have to walk the streets, and they say that an industry so organised is not in a condition in which a British industry ought to be.
I want to submit to this House, and to the Government, that the motor industry is in a condition in which it cannot be allowed to continue. It has been protected by Duties into inefficiency. The hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. O. Stanley) told us that if we keep on these Duties, we ought to impose tests of efficiency. That is a policy; it is a pity his own Government did not adopt it. In fact, what has been the result of the policy of Safeguarding, without his tests, has been the exact opposite of what the

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hon. Member desires. Those Duties, without tests, have meant that our manufacturers have been protected into inefficiency of a very serious kind.
Our manufacturers are shutting their eyes to the greatest economic opportunity that has ever been before any engineers in this country in modern times. They have the most astonishing market opening before their eyes. Take the home market—the working man is just beginning to buy his small car, and if only they could get their industry into a proper condition—[Interruption.] We shall never admit on this side that industry is in a proper condition until working men can buy their own cars. Abroad, there is a tremendous market, in Europe, Russia, in China, and in the East, in which our manufacturers have great advantages against any other manufacturers in the world. But because we will not adopt modern methods of production, we have failed to compete with the other manufacturers of the world, and we shall continue to fail until we do adopt them. We cannot possibly compete until we adopt mass production on the American plan. Therefore, I appeal to the Government that they should accept the offer which has been made to them by the Society of Motor Manufacturers. That society have asked the Government to make an inquiry, through the Economic Advisory Council, into the condition of the industry, and have offered to provide the Economic Advisory Council with all their figures, their accounts, and all the information that they can provide. I hope the Government will accept that offer, and I hope the Government in this inquiry will use their influence to press upon the manufacturers the policy of amalgamation. Only amalgamation can save this industry. I said this to a motor manufacturer the other day and he entirely agreed with me. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I made a mistake. It was the secretary of the Society of Motor Manufacturers, Colonel Hacking. He entirely agreed with me, and he told me that that process was going on. He instanced one example of two factories, both of which I know, standing side by side in one street. Those two factories together are to-day producing 55 motor cars a week. That is not good enough. That is not amalgamation or large-scale
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production. The United States products 5,000,000 cars a year, and they have 10 firms producing them. We produce 211,000 motor cars a year and we have 83 firms to produce them. It is absolutely certain that only the policy of amalgamation can save this industry, or can give to us the great volume of new employment and the greater share in the increased international trade of the world that we ought to have. I do, therefore, beg the Government, through the medium of the Economic Advisory Council, to press upon the industry that they should do something to reorganise themselves, and that they should attempt once more to recapture that spirit of enterprise and initiative which made the industrial greatness of our nation in times gone by.
Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Member who has just addressed the House has contributed a speech which bore the marks of care and study of the subject which is being debated, and which produced a large number of facts which in their proper setting would be extraordinarily significant. I thought that some of the remarks which he made were of importance as showing the change of opinion upon the Socialist benches towards great combines and amalgamations. Certainly, a great many of his arguments were welcomed by hon. Members on this side as showing an appreciation of the new factors which have arisen, principally mass production, and the relation of those factors to the general conditions of employment and to the commodities which are manufactured for the masses of this country. I do not, however, think that at this stage in the Debate I should be well advised to attempt to follow the hon. Member into his catalogue of facts and figures.
I propose to recall the House to the very serious fact that, for the first time in this Parliament, we are moving a Vote of Censure upon the Government of the day, a Vote specially directed to the person of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. A Vote of Censure like this raises, of course, general topics, and certainly they have been very fully discussed, but it also terminates and culminates in a particularly and entirely direct, definite and precise charge against a Minister. Let us see what that charge is. I will state it at the outset and endeavour to sustain it from various

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angles and points of view. The charge that we make against the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that, without due cause, he has created uncertainty which has been harmful to trade and employment. That is the case and that is the question upon which the House is going to come to a decision.
What is the right hon. Gentleman's defence? I listened to his speech today, and I am bound to say that I am astonished at the simplicity of mind which leads him to suppose that the kind of defence which he offered to the charge preferred against him is going to enable him to make his case good in the country. His defence was this: I am not guilty of all the evils which exist in our State at the present time; therefore I am not guilty of any of them. Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that he is going to get away with that? No one has blamed him even for all the evils which follow inevitably from the arrival of a Socialist Government at the seat of power; still less would anyone attempt to blame him or the Government for all the difficulties, mishaps, misfortunes and uphill toilings which result from world causes and from the movements of economic forces far outside the control of this House, and far beyond the wit of human brains to solve at the present time. We do not blame him for all the evils that have arisen from world conditions or even from the character of the Administration of which he is a member. The question on which the House is going to vote is whether he has aggravated those conditions, whether, having to face a difficult situation, whether being confronted with a hard task and grave problems, whether being surrounded with a great amount of misery and perplexity he has added to those difficulties, he has emphasised and aggravated those misfortunes, and whether he has done so knowingly, wittingly, wantonly, callously.
I readily admit that any Government sitting on those benches during the past few months would have had a had time. All sorts of things have happened all over the world. Very harsh and forbidding events have happened. Disconcerting things have occurred. Tides and drifts have moved adverse to our prosperity. I readily admit that. I am not posing that as an attack on the Government, although I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman, had he been
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on this side of the House and had we been on the Government side, would have attributed everything, from the scandals in the City and the collapse of the American Stock Exchange, down to the increased figures of unemployment in particular trades or in the cotton trade—I have no doubt that he would have attributed them all to us, and would have made every party score that he could, placing the blame for most of them on to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Although he would have done that, I freely exclude and exculpate his Government from the blame for these events. [An HON. MEMBER: "How good of you!"] How good can best be measured in comparison with how bad it might have been.
Of course, the Government were in for a bad time. But the question that we are now going to settle is whether they have made these bad times worse by conscious and deliberate action. Let us have a little look back upon the right hon. Gentleman's public record. He heralded his approach to office by uttering a series of the most ferocious threats against wealth in every form—a very remarkable proceeding for one to adopt who had been Chancellor of the Exchequer in the past and who consciously, and I may say eagerly and even hungrily, wanted to he Chancellor of the Exchequer again. Let us see some of the things that the right hon. Gentleman said. Speaking in the country he said:
"I warn these wealthy city men that a Labour Government will increase their taxation."
Speaking again on 18th May, during the election, he said:
"I am not going to say that if a Labour Government comes in there will be no increase of taxation. Taxation of certain people will be increased."
I want a cheer, please. [HON. MEMBERS: "Try again!"] I hope hon. Members opposite have not got their muzzles on to-night. Writing for the "Morning Post" the right hon. Gentleman laid down some principles which would guide him in his future administration and care of the public finances. He said:
"Other political parties regard taxation as a regrettable necessity; they believe that incomes should be left to fructify in the pockets of the people—a very respectable

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Liberal doctrine and a Gladstonian doctrine. They maintain that taxation is a burden on industry, that it discourages enterprise and restricts necessary capital savings. The Labour Party contests all these assumptions. It contends that wise national expenditure is the most economical form of expenditure."
We have had a specimen of wise national expenditure in the Bill which has been passed to relieve any unemployed workman of the necessity to prove that he is genuinely seeking work before he receives an augmented benefit. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"We hold the existence of a rich class as responsible for the poverty of the mass and for the social evil of the slums, physical deterioration, ill-health, inadequate education and industrial inefficiency. The Labour party is determined that the cost of removing these evils shall he paid for by the people who are responsible for them."
Do not be frightened; cheer! You cheered loudly enough before you got into office.
"These are the people who have the financial means to do so."
10.0 p.m.
And so on. The right hon. Gentleman proclaimed very clearly the spirit in which he would assume his responsible duties. He represented taxation, not as an evil, as it is, an unmitigated evil, as it is, or almost unmitigated, but represented it as a sort of salutary tonic which would be administered to the country, whereby the idle rich would be divested of their vast superfluities and the money would be devoted to increasing the energetic production of the masses of the people. Having used this sort of language and having done all that he could to create the feeling that some great and fundamental change would follow his accession to the Chancellorship of the Exchequer, how can the right hon. Gentleman wonder that there has been a great deal of despondency and alarm among those against whom his diatribes were directed? It is all very well. The right hon. Gentleman goes down to the country and makes a speech at some banquet or other which it is his duty to attend, in which he says that the only thing that is the matter with the capitalists, or the old country or whatever it is, is that they want a little more pluck. I say that that kind of statement in the mouth of a man who has been Chancellor of the Exchequer and who is
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about to become Chancellor of the Exchequer again, and has since occupied that office, is bound to create a sense of great anxiety and great caution among the wealthy classes and the business community throughout the country.
The right hon. Gentleman told us to-day that he was the victim of an organised conspiracy, a deliberate conspiracy. He told us how there was a deliberate policy of certain interests to create unemployment in order to discredit the Government. That is what he said. Does anyone really believe that to be true? I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman himself believes it to be true. I am sure that the Lord Privy Seal knows that it is not true. I think the right hon. Gentleman is very ungrateful. I have never seen anyone better treated than he has been. I am supposed to attack him. I would point out that I never said a word against him or his finance until he himself tried to shovel his burdens on to me and made a deliberate and unprovoked attack. He is ungrateful. I have never seen a Chancellor of the Exchequer treated better than he has been treated in the 30 years that I have known this House. He was given the Freedom of the City of London, cheered and applauded by the capitalist popular Press. He has never been pressed or harried in any way in this House, up to the present.
The Prime Minister is not here. I do not blame him, because he has other things to do, but I am sure that if the Prime Minister were here he would repudiate, on behalf of the Government, the kind of language that the right hon. Gentleman uses about the leaders of business and finance in this country. "A conspiracy!" To whom do they run, these Socialists? They come into office "to sweep away all this," and it is to be "Goodbye to all that." They come into office, and the first thing that they do in their distress is to run along and find a lot of capitalists to teach them how to cure the unemployment that they themselves profess to be able to cure. Very generously and very readily these leaders of business and finance have come forward and helped the King's Government, as it is the duty of every person in a non-political capacity to do on a non-party and non-political issue. They are conspiring to produce unemployment, no doubt ruining themselves in the process,

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letting their works stand idle, paying overhead charges and taxes and so forth, conspiring to make an attack upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer by creating a large quantity of unemployment. The Lord Privy Seal is every day seeing business men who loathe the politics of his own party, but who, he knows, are giving the best efforts they can and the fairest and freest advice to help us all out of our difficulties. It is ungrateful.
Let me warn the right hon. Gentleman of one thing. There is no form of delusion more common than the persecution mania. Most of us who have occupied public positions for any length of time get any number of letters from people who imagine that there is a conspiracy against them, "They are hunting me down," "I am being ringed around." These are early days for the right hon. Gentleman to show these signs. We have not even reached the Budget yet. If he is in this condition three weeks before the Budget is introduced, what will he be reduced to by the end of July?
I have spoken so far of the injury and the embarrassment that he has done to the general public fortunes, and to the success of his own party and Administration, by his foolish fulminations against capitalists and wealth and by his assertion of the virtues of severe and punitive taxation. There is one class of His Majesty's subjects and one class of British industries which come in for a double dose of his commination service. Those are the industries which have in one form or another been the subject of protective duties. Everyone knows how numerous those industries are and how various, and, I must say, heterogeneous are the categories into which they are divided. There are the key industry duties, and the McKenna luxury duties, which we owe to the time when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) were assisting Mr. Asquith to conduct the Coalition administration. We have been faithful to the traditions of those duties after their authors have found it convenient to abandon them. The McKenna luxury duties, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen directly told us, were imposed during the War for the purpose of reducing
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freights across the ocean and improving the exchange at a time when foreign luxuries were not required at all in these islands. Whether they are required in these islands now is to my mind an open question, but I cannot for the life of me see why anyone who wants a foreign luxury cannot be made to pay a little more for it. Who on earth is damnified if a person who chooses to pick up an American motor car when a perfectly good English car is available is made subject to some form of taxation?
These duties were re-imposed for revenue purposes. The right hon. Gentleman reminded me that I re-imposed them for revenue purposes, and seemed to think that a bulwark to take shelter behind. My motives were revenue, but nothing can alter the fact that the duties are protective in character. They are protective duties, and very high protective duties. Then there are the Safeguarding Duties, which were imposed consequent upon the Parish resolutions by the foresight, wisdom and penetrating perspicacity of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives. We can see the Liberal touch emerging in this class of legislation. Finally, there are, in a category by themselves, the Silk Duties and the duty on tyres, which were not imposed under the Safeguarding procedure, but which were imposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in pursuance of what I hold is his indefeasible right to propose to Parliament any duty to which his colleagues in the Cabinet will assent. The total yield of these duties is £12,500,000, and to this you must add the £15,000,000 of Sugar Duties, making, we will say, very nearly £30,000,000 of revenue. The right hon. Gentleman openly and freely declared his intention of sweeping away all those duties at the earliest possible moment, and that is still his position. £30,000,000 of revenue! What becomes of the charge that he makes against me of squandering revenue?
The success of these duties has been very remarkable. Take the whole class of them. Show me any complaint by a trade union organisation. Show me any complaint by an employers' association or an individual employer. Show me any complaint by a Chamber of Commerce. Show me any complaint by any body representing consumers

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against any of these duties. Show me any public demand for their repeal. Show me any justification in the surplus revenue possessed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer which would justify him in sweeping away all this revenue. On the contrary, the general opinion has moved steadily in the direction, not of sweeping them away, but of making sensible additions to their number and regularising and systematising their character and introducing some more logical principle into this considerable mass of duties which have now been erected and have so far produced nothing but good results. All these duties have been valuable and brilliant experiments, and we are emboldened to go forward, supported by an ever-growing mass of opinion far outside the bounds of party, into this field.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen in the course of another of his pedagogic and censorious orations said: "Let us judge of these matters in the light of actual experience." We are quite content with that. That is the whole case. We do not wish these matters treated as questions of party, as a stunt to be managed by the newspapers, but we should like them to be considered at the present time on their merits by persons who have no immediate electioneering interest in the position one way or another. The Balfour Committee, a Committee of very able men, Free Traders in the majority, appointed by the present Prime Minister—the Balfour Committee, after prolonged examination, by a majority, markedly and clearly deprecated the removal of these duties. Now there is a new Economic Committee, an important committee wittily described as a committee from whom no one of note had been omitted. This committee, the new Economic Committee, the members of which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will probably describe as conspirators, gathered together to come and help the Prime Minister and the Government, a body picked by himself. We should be quite content—we cannot go on working out details and figures on our own, but I place it broadly upon this—to have the question submitted to this Committee whether these duties have been beneficial or not, whether they ought to be removed; and whether they are to be removed or not,
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the policy should be announced immediately. We should be quite content with that.
After all, we see ourselves in many difficulties. We want to make sure that we are finding the shortest way out of our perils. Why is the right hon. Gentleman so adverse to all this? We have had some old speeches to-night—not so very old either. But there is a speech, a maiden speech, I believe, in the House of Commons, a rather elderly maiden at that time, the maiden speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House of Commons. He began by saying:
"Might he say to Free Traders on the Ministerial side that it was upon the very existence of these evils, which 60 years of Free Trade had failed to mitigate or palliate, that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Joseph Chamberlain) had founded his appeal to the country?"
He went on to say:
"They were prepared to admit that there was a great deal of truth in what was expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham as to the changed conditions of our industries during the past 60 years. Conditions were constantly changing. They agreed with the statement that the time had come when they should take stock of our industrial position."
That is what we are asking now.
"Our industrial circumstances were not what they were 60 years ago, when we practically stood alone among the manufacturing nations of the world."
I almost heard these words repeated by the Leader of the Opposition to-day, though he had not read this speech.
"Since then other nations had become their own producers, and to a great extent they were becoming our competitors in all the markets of the world. Sixty years had falsified the expectations that foreign restrictions upon trade would be removed. There had not been a continuous improvement in the condition of the people during the last 60 years."
That is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is the supreme orthodox defender of the most rigidly expressed d doctrines of economic Cobdenism.
Mr. SNOWDEN: That was said in support of a Free Trade Resolution.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, and one can gather how much support the Free Trade Resolution received. When the right hon. Member for Darwen derides me, as he has done to-day, for proclaiming myself

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at once a Free Trader and a Protectionist, he will see that others have trod that path before. The right hon. Gentleman must really take a mental and moral pull of himself, because he is allowing himself to have prejudices against all these protected trades. He says, "They are protected and, therefore, they are malignant and must be punished. I will lam you to be a toad." He cannot receive their representatives. He cannot show himself in the same room; he wants to lay his hands about them, these rank, wicked, cursed protected trades, many of whom have no knowledge of the processes which have led to their receiving these duties. Odi quem laeseris; hate those you have injured, or are about to injure. He has proceeded against these trades by a dual process of torture; first, alarm; then, suspense; violent alarm; very prolonged suspense. Anything more elaborate than the machinery he has adopted to create alarm cannot be imagined. He solemnly read out to us a couple of months ago all the arrangements which he was making with regard to the duty-paid stocks in all these trades in case of the duties being removed. He must have known that the revenue then did not justify bringing a single one of these duties to an end. He went through the solemn farce of laying out all the proceeding which would be appropriate with a view of creating the utmost possible concern and uncertainty, and lent to it an extreme air of verisimilitude. He ought to try to be fair to all trades, even though they are protected and to say to himself, "They are all under my wing, and I will do the best I can for all of them, and for all of us." That is the proper spirit for him to address himself to his duties. Instead he comes down here, when we have 1,500,000 unemployed, a number which is probably going to be increased, and talks to us in a mocking way about jews' harps, pop-guns and mechanical donkeys, in a spirit which I can only characterise as worthy of a mechanical donkey. I have little more to say, and I am going to address myself to the question of Budget secrecy.
HON. MEMBERS: What about food taxes?
Mr. CHURCHILL: Hon. Members below the Gangway must make their own speeches and must allow me to make
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mine. I am directing myself in strict relevance to the Vote of Censure on which we are going to vote.
What is the argument of Budget secrecy? The object of Budget secrecy is the public interest. It is the public interest that the secrets of the Budget should be kept, and that the Budget should be announced in its integrity, because it would be undesirable that there should be forestalments of revenue or other calculations or speculations made upon the plans for the yearly finances. But Budget secrecy means that there shall be no leakage. It does not in the least preclude an announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at any time, if it be thought that it will be better for the common interest, better for the national housekeeping, to have such an announcement. There is no Budget etiquette, no rule to prevent such an announcement being made. Far better to have such an announcement than to have leakages, and are you quite sure there will be no leakages? I wonder very much, when I see the motor trade suddenly lifting its head a little, whether they have not had a hint from some quarter or another to say, "After all it will be quite all right—take it from me."
At any rate, however that may be I cannot tell, but it would be far less objectionable to have a frank and plain announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is ludicrous to suppose that any tradition would be violated by such a statement. The oldest Privy Councillor in the House the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), who was Chancellor of the Exchequer on two occasions, made a precedent. It is quite true that he said, very rightly, that it ought not to be copied—except when special circumstances arise—and I am sure it would have been better for the right hon. Gentleman to have said, "Everyone knows that I would like to do away with these Duties, but there is absolutely no question of my having the finances to do away with them at the present time, and, therefore, I put these trades out of their misery at once." But what does the right hon. Gentleman do? He fixes his eye on the Budget day. That is a great occasion for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Then he

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comes clown here to the House and unfolds his plan, and we shall all wait with the greatest interest to hear the right hon. Gentleman's plan. But one must not push too far considerations of personal gratification and the theatrical setting of the scene. The right hon. Gentleman wants to come down here on 14th April. He knows perfectly well tonight whether he is going to repeal those Duties or not. I cannot hazard what he will do.
If he does not repeal them what will be his position? Just in order that he might come down here and have all these trades, in which I am told 500,000 people are employed, sitting around in the galleries on every side waiting to hear—[Interruption.] There is nothing dishonourable in being in trade. The right hon. Gentleman, as I say, will have them waiting to know what their fate may be, having had their businesses held up, having been unable to make their ordinary forward contracts, having been embarrassed and harassed for months by alarming predictions and threats—all will be waiting and hanging on his words. Then he will tell them, "You are all reprieved, you are all respited and you can go away and live in your present uncertainty for another year. I should have thought that the days had gone by when the personal pomp and circumstance of an individual, the personal vanity of an individual, could outweigh broad matters of interest. We all know the saying:
"And wretches hang that Chancellors may shine."
We all know how Napoleon before the Battle of Leipzig said, "Do you think I am a man who cares a snap of the fingers for the lives of 100,000 soldiers?" [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman is using the livelihood of 500,000 people as the raw material of his stage effects. That is the gravamen of the case which we oppose against him to-night. I am not joining with those who procliam a pessimistic outlook for this country. I agree with the Lord Privy Seal and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) that the strength and power of this mighty country is unexhausted, and will be capable in the long run of mounting every difficulty and surmounting every peril. But for the time,
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the luck is adverse. We have enough to bear and little enough to sustain ourselves, and it is a shame that anyone for motives of pride or prejudice should add a single jot to the burden which is being borne by the self-supporting citizens in every part of the island, when it ought to be the common endeavour of us all to add to the national stock of good fortune.
The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Wedgwood Benn): When I first became a Member of this House, I remember with what delight I used to listen to the championship of the fight against tariffs which lay in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). I confess that to-night the chief interest of the Debate was to hear how the right hon. Gentleman was going to defend the ramshackle Resolution which has been put on the Paper on behalf of the Opposition. I think those who have listened have been greatly disappointed. I do not say that those who expected a brilliant and amusing oration have been disappointed, but those who looked for some sort of defence for the change of attitude have gone away empty. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about your change?"] I remember in a work which was published about 20 years ago and widely circulated, which was called "Why I am a Free Trader," by Winston S. Churchill, the remark occurred that
"Free Trade is not like another question; it is a touchstone."
To-day the right hon. Gentleman seems to think that Protection is a stepping-stone. He comes here, and, without any attempt in detail either to explain the policy of the Opposition, or in fact to explain the meaning of the Motion, he devotes himself to an attack, largely a personal one, on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though I do not suppose that my right hon. Friend complains. He attacked him because he says that he is a lover of sensation, is a man who likes a sensational situation and would do anything that he might be in the limelight. Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten Sidney Street? But he is also very anxious that he and his friends should be able to pursue their policy unhampered by the Press in what he calls a logical way.
It seems to me that the most useful thing one could do in the very short time

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which I propose to occupy would be to examine what, in effect, is the constructive part of the Motion before us. Obviously, it would not be the wish of the Opposition merely to put before the House destructive and barren criticism. What they desire is to present to us and to the country an alternative, and this is certainly an excellent opportunity to examine what is the present position of the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Neighbour on this question of Protection.
I will not go into the history of the last 20 years. The right hon. Gentleman remembers it as well as I do. We will take the history of the last month, set in three scenes. The first at the Coliseum, a well-known scene of martyrdom; the second, a play with the curtain down; and the third at the Hotel Cecil. I believe the last diversion which is to take place there. The right hon. Gentleman spoke at the Coliseum before a large and influential gathering of members of his own party, of which he is the Leader. He is the Leader of the party. We need be under no misapprehension of the function of a leader. During the Election he told us at Widnes, "I am the leader of a united party and what I say in my party goes."—goes at the Coliseum. What did he say at the Coliseum? "I want a free use of safeguarding, but I will not propose taxes on food." I am the leader of a party, and what I say goes! The curtain is dropped and somewhere in the wings there is an interview between the right hon. Gentleman and a crusader. The curtain rises again at the Hotel Cecil, and the party policy has become a free use of safeguarding—that is, Protection; I will give you that in a moment—and food taxes—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—well, this is interesting; we must get an answer to some of these questions—and food taxes if confirmed by a referendum. The crusader remarked in his newspaper, "I was encouraged by the unqualified character of the support I received." The right hon. Gentleman, who has carefully evaded this topic—or done so by accident wilfully and wantonly—wrote to his constituents and said, "This decision enables all the energies and enthusiasms evoked by Lord Beaverbrook's campaign to be directed to the goal." Now, what is the goal?
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The keystone of the policy, says the crusader, is the taxation of foreign foodstuffs. The policy of the Conservative party to-day on this question is: one, safeguarding, the free safeguarding—that is, the general Protection—of manufactures; second, the taxation of raw materials—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—Oh, but Lord Beaverbrook!—and third, subject to the referendum, the taxation of food.
Here is a party charging us with refusing to make a declaration of our intentions and with causing uncertainty in fiscal matters and yet they cannot answer a simple question. On the question of new Safeguarding we all agree that it must give an exception in the Imperial interests. It has been suggested that a new tariff should be imposed on manufactured articles giving a preference to Dominion products. Is that the policy of hon. Members opposite? [An HON. MEMBER: "Wait and see!"] Do you propose to impose a new tariff on Dominion products albeit one-third less than the new tariff on foreign products? That is a new scheme for improving the trade of the Dominions. Take the second proposition which proposes to tax raw material including American cotton. Is that right? [Interruption.] There is my right hon. Friend who sat there merely quivering silently under the gibes of the right hon. Gentleman, and yet the most polite and courteous inquiry addressed to hon. Members opposite produces either opprobrious retorts or else complete taciturnity. Of course, we should tax cotton. Lord Beaverbrook has said so on or about the 12th of December.
Are you going to tax steel? You would tax steel if the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) had his way, but the others do not know, and this is a united party. Are you going to tax wool? Lord Beaverbrook has announced that you are going to tax raw material. Are you going to tax food? [An HON. MEMBER: "Foreign."] You are going to tax foreign food, always subject to a referendum. I am old enough to remember, and many hon. Members are old enough to remember, the time when the whole of these futile devices were tried before to save the life of the Conservative party and failed. The right hon. Gentleman made a speech in which he gave quotations from Sir William

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Anson and Lord Cave. I remember those speeches. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the proposed Liberal Referendum in 1893. Lord Curzon described it by saying:
"Because Mr. Gladstone aspires to revolutionise the constitution in one direction, there can be no necessity for us in order to defeat him to revolutionise it in another."
and he spoke about a referendum in 1910. The "Daily Telegraph" declared:
"Is it not ludicrous to talk as if the referendum could be tacked on as a party detail, to a Measure of the most acutely controversial kind?"
The "Daily Express" said it was a clumsy and inept suggestion. The "Daily Mail" said it was fantastic and preposterous, and the National Union of Conservative Associations declared that:
"The referendum may, in fact, be dismissed as belonging to academic rather than the practical side of politics."
On a Referendum which was specifically proposed on the question of food taxes, Mr. Bonar Law said:
"I will tell you the reason, that seems to us a valid reason, why it would not do to submit these proposals to a Referendum after the completion of the negotiations."
After a paragraph which time does not permit me to read, Mr. Bonar Law goes on to say that:
"The sole reason why we object to submit this proposal to a Referendum is that would not be fair to the Dominions."
We do not know, or cannot find out, whether the Opposition, and particularly the right hon. Gentleman, is in favour of food taxation or not. We do not know what they are going to advocate at the Election; we do not know what they are going to do when the referendum question is put down; and yet they are charging us with creating uncertainty.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Are not you the Government?
Mr. BENN: Is your return to be prolonged so indefinitely that your fiscal opinions have no importance? What do they propose to do with the scheme which is outlined in this Resolution to-night? It speaks of Safeguarding and Imperial Preference. It is an Imperial policy; it is an Empire crusade and it is a cure for unemployment. If you shut out imports, you prevent exports. You cannot explain, and no one has answered the Chancellor's
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question this afternoon, as to why in countries with high tariffs there are millions of people unemployed [An HON. MEMBER: "Is that so in France? "] If a tariff is a cure for unemployment, there should be no unemployment where the cure has been applied. No one has been able to explain how it is that; unemployment is going to be cured in exporting trades by restricting imports—and the unemployment is in the exporting trades. Far better than anything that I can say will be for me to give the views of the right hon. Gentleman on this subject—hot ancient views, but recent views. He has said:
"There is no truth in the idea that is sometimes mooted that the present increase in unemployment is due to foreign competiton."
That was in 1928. I remember him writing something a little more rhetorical, perhaps because he was a little younger. He wrote thus:
"Because they are conscious of failure, they have hastened blithering and blubbering to the electors, with a lachrymose cry of curing unemployment by Protection."
It is sought to bind the Empire together by some such policy as this, and the Leader of the movement is gratified to have had the unqualified support given by the Leader of the Opposition. This is his idea:
"We who comprise the English-speaking people of the Empire have no economic unity which will enable us to take our fair share of the world's commercial prosperity."
That is how he declares his policy. I would like to know since when the conception has grown that the British Empire exists for the purpose of some financial or industrial interests of English-speaking people. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), in a speech and an article which I read out, dealt with this matter very effectively. This Empire Crusade is a crusade to exploit the populations of the Empire for
"the English-speaking people of the Empire who have no economic unity which would enable us to take our fair share"—
and so on. What is the British Empire? Since when did the British Empire become an English-speaking British Empire? Are 300,000,000 people in Asia, 50,000,000 people in Africa, and 8,000,000 in Oceania, to be told, "You are tied to a British commercial system. Your markets must be within the British

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Empire. You must buy from the British manufacturer. Any ring, any trust, any combination can force you to pay more for the goods that you need"—[Interruption.] They are to be told, "You are to be made the victims of a tariff system which simply means the exploitation by capital of the interests of the consumer." [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If it were possible to construct an Empire on this basis, it would definitely be a degraded Empire and a lowering of the world's standards, because the League of Nations, in its Mandate, has laid it down that this sort of thing is not to be permitted. The right hon. Gentleman for Sevenoaks (Sir H. Young) laughs, but is it not a fact that in no mandated territory could you have fiscal arrangements which give a preference to this country? Are you therefore to say that our standard of Imperialism, or what you will, is going to be lower than the Geneva standard? Under the leadership of this crusader, are we to degrade ourselves so that instead of—[Interruption.] Since when have you thought you could make an Empire or Empire spirit by taxing food? Every mouthful of food which the people eat—and it is little enough—would be embittered by the duty. You go to the people and say, "Eat less and expand the Empire! Bind the Empire together by tightening your own belts." Any such cry or policy of that kind—and it is the policy—as far as strengthening the Empire is concerned, is a sure precursor of its ruin and dissolution. [Interruption.] I have only a little time at my disposal.
HON. MEMBERS: Why do not you reply to the Vote of Censure?
Sir COOPER RAWSON: On a point of Order. I merely want to ask the right hon. Gentleman—
Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of Order.
Mr. BENN: If I am trying to hit hard and if it is not congenial to hon. Gentlemen opposite, let them remember this is the place where we have to listen to much which we do not like. They are a party of sham Imperialism. All this talk about Empire lies badly on their lips. This Motion which is on the Paper, and which is described as the Resolution of the party opposite, is answered in the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping himself, and I will give it. It is familiar as a classic. I am not a stylist, but he is. He is a soldier, he is a bricklayer, he is a stylist, and in these familiar words let us answer the party opposite and the Motion they have put on the Paper:
"A party of great vested interests, the trickery of tariff juggles, the tyranny of the party machine, sentiment by the bucketful, patriotism by the Imperial pint, the open hand at the Treasury, the open door at the public house, dear food for the million, cheap labour for the millionaire."
Question put,
"That this House deplores the depression in trade and the increase in unemployment resulting from the policy of the present Government, and regrets the refusal of the Government not only to extend safeguarding or Imperial Preference but even to declare their intentions with regard to the maintenance of the existing safeguarding and McKenna Duties and duties on sugar, silk and key industries, thereby increasing uncertainty and distress."
The House divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 308.

Division No. 226.]

AYES.

[10.57 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

Berry, Sir George

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Albery, Irving James

Betterton, Sir Henry B.

Butler, R. A.

Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

Butt, Sir Alfred

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverpl., W.)

Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

Bird, Ernest Roy

Carver, Major W. H.

Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

Boothby, R. J. G.

Castle Stewart, Earl of

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Astor, Viscountess

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Atholl, Duchess of

Boyce, H. L.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Atkinson, C.

Bracken, B.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Briscoe, Richard George

Chapman, Sir S.

Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Christie, J. A.

Balniel, Lord

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Buchan, John

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Beaumont, M. W.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Colfox, Major William Philip

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Colman, N. C. D.

Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Colville, Major D. J.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renneil

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Hurd, Percy A.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Iveagh, Countess of

Salmon, Major I.

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

Sasscon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Knox, Sir Alfred

Savery, S. S.

Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

Skeiton, A. N.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Llewellin, Major J. J.

Smithers, Waldron

Dixey, A. C.

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Somerset, Thomas

Duckworth, G. A. V.

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Long, Major Eric

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, Edit)

Eden, Captain Anthony

Lymington, Viscount

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

McConnell, Sir Joseph

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

Macquisten, F. A.

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Everard, W. Lindsay

MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Ferguson, Sir John

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

Fielden, E. B.

Margesson, Captain H. D.

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Fison, F. G. Clavering

Marjoribanks, E. C.

Thomson, Sir F.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

Tinne, J. A.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Melier, R. J.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Todd, Capt. A. J.

Galbraith, J. F. W.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Train, J.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Mond, Hon. Henry

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

Turton, Robert Hugh

Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Morden, Col. W. Grant

Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

Gower, Sir Robert

Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Grace, John

Muirhead, A. J.

Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

Wayland, Sir William A.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Wells, Sydney R.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

O'Neill, Sir H.

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Peake, Capt. Osbert

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Penny, Sir George

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Withers, Sir John James

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Womersley, W. J.

Hammersley, S. S.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Hanbury, C.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Purbrick, R.

Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

Hartington, Marquess of

Ramsbotham, H.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton.

Haslam, Henry C.

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford)

Remer, John R.

Commander Sir B. Eyres Monsell

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

and Major Sir George Hennessy.

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Reynolds, Col. Sir James

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Benson, G.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N)

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Bentham, Dr. Ethel

Calne, Derwent Hall-

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

Cameron, A. G.

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

Birkett, W. Norman

Cape, Thomas

Alpass, J. H.

Bilndell, James

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Ammon, Charles George

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Charleton, H. C.

Angell, Norman

Bowen, J. W.

Chater, Daniel

Arnott, John

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Church, Major A. G.

Aske, Sir Robert

Broad, Francis Alfred

Clarke, J. S.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Brockway, A. Fenner

Cluse, W. S.

Ayles, Walter

Bromfield, William

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Bromley, J.

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Brooke, W.

Compton, Joseph

Barnes, Alfred John

Brothers, M.

Cove, William G.

Batey, Joseph

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Daggar, George

Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Dallas, George

Bellamy, Albert

Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

Dalton, Hugh

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Burgess, F. G.

Day, Harry

Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Denman, Hon. R. D.

1652

1653

Devlin, Joseph

Leach, W.

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Rowson, Guy

Dukes, C.

Lees, J.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Duncan, Charles

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

Ede, James Chuter

Lindley, Fred W.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Edmunds, J. E.

Lloyd, C. Ellis

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Logan, David Gilbert

Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Longbottom, A. W.

Sanders, W. S.

Egan, W. H.

Longden, F.

Sandham, E.

Elmley, Viscount

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Sawyer, G. F.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Lowth, Thomas

Scrymgeour, E.

Foot, Isaac

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Scurr, John

Forgan, Dr. Robert

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Sexton, James

Freeman, Peter

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

McElwee, A.

Sherwood, G. H.

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

McEntee, V. L.

Shield, George William

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

McKinlay, A.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Gibbins, Joseph

MacLaren, Andrew

Shillaker, J. F.

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

Shinwell, E.

Gill, T. H.

MecNeill-Weir, L.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Gillett, George M.

McShane, John James

Simmons, C. J.

Glassey, A. E.

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Gossling, A. G.

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Sinkinson, George

Gould, F.

Mansfield, W.

Sitch, Charles H.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

March, S.

Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

Granville, E.

Marcus, M.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Gray, Milner

Markham, S. F.

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Marley, J.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Marshall, Fred

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

Mathers, George

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Matters, L. W.

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Groves, Thomas E.

Melville, Sir James

Snell, Harry

Grundy, Thomas W.

Messer, Fred

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Middleton, G.

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Millar, J. D.

Sorensen, R.

Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

Mills, J. E.

Stamford, Thomas W.

Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

Milner, J.

Stephen, Campbell

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

Montague, Frederick

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Harbison, T. J.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

Harbord, A.

Morley, Ralph

Strauss, G. R.

Hardie, George D.

Morris, Rhys Hopkins

Sullivan, J.

Harris, Percy A.

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Sutton, J. E.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Haycock, A. W.

Mort, D. L.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Hayday, Arthur

Moses, J. J. H.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

Hayes, John Henry

Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Tillett, Ben

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Tinker, John Joseph

Henderson, Arthur, Junr, (Cardiff, S.)

Muff, G.

Toole, Joseph

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

Muggeridge, H. T.

Tout, W. J.

Herriotts, J.

Murnin, Hugh

Townend, A. E.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Nathan, Major H. L.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hoffman, P. C.

Naylor, T. E.

Turner, B.

Hollins, A.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Vaughan, D. J.

Hopkin, Daniel

Noel Baker, P. J.

Viant, S. P.

Horrabin, J. F.

Oldfield, J. R.

Walker, J.

Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Wallace, H. W.

Hunter, Dr. Joseph

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Isaacs, George

Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)

Watkins, F. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Palin, John Henry.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Johnston, Thomas

Paling, Wilfrid

Wellock, Wilfred

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Palmer, E. T.

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Perry, S. F.

Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Peters, Dr. Sidney John

West, F. R.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Phillips, Dr. Marion

White, H. G.

Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

Picton-Tubervill, Edith

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Kelly, W. T.

Pole, Major D. G.

Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

Kennedy, Thomas

Potts, John S.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Price, M. P.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Kinley, J.

Pybus, Percy John

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Kirkwood, D.

Quibell, D. J. K.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Knight, Holford

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Lang, Gordon

Rathbone, Eleanor

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Raynes, W. R.

Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

Lathan, G.

Richards, R.

Wise, E. F.

Law, Albert (Bolton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

Law, A. (Rosendale)

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

Lawrence, Susan

Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

Ritson, J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Lawson, John James

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Romeril, H. G.

Henderson.

Question put, and agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  SUPPLY.
    REPORT [12th March].
    Resolutions reported:
    REPORT [12th March].
      CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1929.
        CLASS VI.
        1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £9,850, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Overseas Trade, including Grants-in-Aid of the Imperial Institute and the Travel Association of Great Britain."
      ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1929.
      2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £560,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the excess cost involved in the employment of extra troops in China, not provided for in the Army Estimates of the year, and the loss of Army receipts involved in the withdrawal of the Army of Occupation on the Rhine."
      AIR SERVICES SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1929.
      3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £760,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the cost of the Air Services not provided for in the Air Estimates of the year."

  ARCHDEACONRY OF SURREY MEASURE, 1930.
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: I beg to move,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Archdeaconry of Surrey Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
  This is a Measure on which there is no controversy and, I believe, no objection. It is due to the fact that the ancient diocese of Winchester has been divided into three parts. It is a Measure agreed to by all parties in the House.
  Mr. LOVAT-FRASER: I beg to second the Motion.
  Resolved,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Archdeaconry of Surrey Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."

  MARRIAGE MEASURE, 1930.
  Mr. MIDDLETON: I beg to move,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Marriage Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
  This Measure has passed through the Church Assembly and has been examined, reported upon and approved by the Ecclesiastical Committee and now, owing to the Enabling Act, it has to be submitted to the House. I understand there is a feeling in some quarters that this proposed legislation is of a special kind but I hope no opposition will be offered to it on those grounds, because whatever equity there might be in arguing that what is good for the Church is good for the Nonconformist Churches, the fact remains that the Church of England has no power to legislate for people outside its own communion. The Measure has been passed by the Church Assembly through machinery which was created under the authority of this House, and very serious difficulties would be created if any real opposition were forthcoming to a Measure of this kind. It does not take liberty away from anyone. It extends liberty. Its object is to allow people to get married in the church where they worship, and not necessarily in the church of the parish in which they reside. It preserves the right to use the parish church but its main effect is to extend it to the church where they worship. The same thing applies to the banns of marriage. The Ecclesiastical Committee have reported that it does not prejudicially affect the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects. I ask the House, therefore, to pass it.
  Major Sir JOHN BIRCHALL: I beg to second the Motion.
  Dr. PETERS: I rise to oppose this Measure, not that I have any real complaint as to its subject matter but it means that we are now considering a particular Measure under a particular

  1657
  Enabling Act passed in 1919, legislating for one particular section of the community. I have gone through the Debates that took place in 1919, both in November and later on when the Enabling Bill was before the House in December, and I can find nothing that would lend support to this House giving its sanction to this Measure going through. On the contrary, on the 5th December, 1919, there was suggested in this House an Amendment to a certain Section of the Enabling Act so as to define precisely and limit the measures which should be brought forward in this way. It was then stated that the Enabling Bill would only refer to matters of internal and purely ecclesiastical moment.
  This matter refers to an alteration in the general marriage law of this Kingdom, and in my humble judgment the course to be adopted is for this House to produce a Bill in the ordinary way and alter the law of this land as to marriage, in order to do away with these anomalies and so bring in what hon. Members on both sides of the House want with regard to the Church of England, and that is to make it possible for all these people, no matter to what church or chapel they belong, to be married in the place in which they worship. On looking carefully at the Enabling Act, it does not appear to me that Clause 4 of the Report of the Ecclesiastial Committee is quite correct. Clause 4 reads as follows:
  "The Measure does not affect prejudicially the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects and the Committee are of the opinion that it is expedient that it should proceed."
  If anyone looks at Section 3 (3) of the Enabling Act he will find these words:
  "Especially with relation to the constitutional rights of all His Majesty's subjects."
  I would emphasise the word "all," in order to bring out this point, that this Measure is only dealing with one particular section and that section of His Majesty's subjects who are in reality members on the parochial roll of the Church of England. I submit that this is one of those Measures, without going further into details, which should never be passed through the House of Commons in this way. The Church of England in its wisdom may at a later date say, "We want to alter the general law as to
  1658
  divorce; it affects us. We want to alter the general law as to something else which affects us as a Church." I say therefore that this House should never pass in that way Measures which only affect a particular church in one particular capacity. Here you will find that you have a marriage law for the land which is general in its application, and that law should only be altered so as to affect the whole of the people whatever church or chapel they might attend, or whether they attend one or not.
  Resolved,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Marriage Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."

  PARSONAGES MEASURE, 1930.
  Mr. MIDDLETON: I beg to move,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parsonages Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
  Viscount ELMLEY: I beg to second the Motion.
  There are several reasons why I hope that the House will pass this Measure. In the first place it has been passed by the National Assembly of the Church of England after very careful consideration, and I put it to the House that it is a much-needed reform, whereby existing parsonages can be disposed of when they are found to be inconvenient and unsuitable. The Measure also provides that substitutes may be found more easily. It is common knowledge, especially to those who live in the country, that many benefices have existed for centuries, and that many parsonages are quite inadequate for the needs of to-day. It frequently happens that an incumbent who has private means has provided himself with a larger house, and when the time comes for him to go the fresh incumbent finds that he is saddled with a much larger building than he requires and that the cost of repair and maintenance makes a heavy inroad on what may be a slender stipend. The proposals in the Bill are these; If it is proposed to sell a parsonage it is necessary to have the consent of the incumbent, the diocesan authorities,

  1659
  and Queen Anne's Bounty which, as hon. Members know, is the national trustee in all matters appertaining to the Church and Church lands. The parochial church council and the patron of the living have to be consulted, and the patron has the right of preemption of the property it is proposed to sell. In these ways, all interests are fully guarded. I think the provisions of the Bill would simplify the conveyance of any property which is sold, and secure a satisfactory definition of the uses to which the proceeds of the sale may apply and the regulations under which the Act may be carried out. Under the rules made by Queen Anne's Bounty for the prescribing of conditions authorised by the Measure, they have to be submitted to both Houses of Parliament, which imposes an additional safeguard for the proper administration of the Act.
  Mr. BEAUMONT: I desire to ask two questions with regard to safeguards concerning the patrons of livings. It has been said that the patrons are to be consulted. What exactly does that mean? Are the views of the patrons to be taken into consideration? It is easier to consult than to pay attention to what they say. Secondly, there is the question of their right to pre-emption. On what terms are they to have the right to pre-empt parsonages? If these questions are satisfactorily answered I do not want to oppose the Measure.
  Mr. MIDDLETON: The patron will be consulted in all cases and he will have the right to call into being a committee on which he himself will serve. He will have the right to pre-empt on the purchase if the sale is proceeded with.
  Mr. BEAUMONT: On what terms would he have the right to pre-empt? Would it be an agreed valuation, or by auction, or in what way?
  Mr. MIDDLETON: I imagine it would be under valuation. His position has been carefully considered, and the hon. Member may take it that his rights will be protected.
  Captain BOURNE: I wish to assure the hon. Member that this matter was carefully considered and the Amendments were thoroughly approved.
  Mr. FOOT: With reference to the three Measures brought forward to-night, I think it is unfortunate that they should come forward at this time of night. It never was intended, when the Enabling Bill was passed, that these Measures were to be given to us in a sentence or two, and I think that the House, when it has no chance of amending or inquiry into, a Measure closely, Clause by Clause, is entitled to a fairly full survey of a Measure, so that we may give our votes with some intelligence. It was not desired or intended to place any hindrance in the way of the Established Church of this country in passing these Measures, but my hon. Friends thought that when these Measures are brought before the House we should get a full statement of their purposes so that we might vote with some sense of responsibility.
  Mr. DENMAN: It is fair to say that these Measures were considered by the Ecclesiastical Committee, and it is the business of that Committee to report to the House if there is any doubt as to the suitability of these Measures, and especially if they infringe any rights. They were unanimously agreed by Members of all parties on certain assurances being given. Let me deal with the specific point raised as to the question of valuations. The value is at such a price as may be agreed upon between the Patrons' sub-Committee or, failing such agreement, at such a price as shall be fixed by a valuer appointed at the request of the Diocesan Dilapidations Board.
  Mr. MANDER: The remarks the hon. Member has made raise a point that wants further discussing. He rather suggests that because the Ecclesiastical Committee has presented a report unanimously in favour of the Bill, this House has nothing further to do and I protest most strongly against any suggestion of that kind. As long as the Church of England remains by law established, it is subject to the control of Parliament and its Measures have to be brought before this assembly and they will be most carefully debated here before they are passed. I was sorry to hear the hon. Member suggest that, because the Ecclesiastical Committee

  1661
  does not look at it from a broad, general point of view, but has certain constitutional duties to perform, and does not go through all the Clauses. The hon. Member has put forward a point of view which will find very little support on any side of the House. We must retain to ourselves a free hand to look at the Measure that the Church may bring forward, and there will be every desire to support them, and facilitate them if they seem wise, but we are the judges in the last resort as to whether they are wise or not.
  Resolved,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parsonages Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-eight Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

  NATIONAL SAVINGS CERTIFICATES.
  NATIONAL SAVINGS CERTIFICATES.
POST OFFICE.
  TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION (RAILWAY TRAINS).
  TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION (RAILWAY TRAINS).
  REVENUE.
  REVENUE.
  TELEPHONE STAFF.
  TELEPHONE STAFF.
  WIRELESS TELEPHONY.
  WIRELESS TELEPHONY.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  FATAL ACIDENTS.
  FATAL ACIDENTS.
  BUILDINGS, MILTON.
  BUILDINGS, MILTON.
  NAVAL ARMAMENT DEPOTS AND FACTORIES.
  NAVAL ARMAMENT DEPOTS AND FACTORIES.
  TITHE RENT-CHARGE.
  TITHE RENT-CHARGE.
  FISHING INDUSTRY (HANDLING AND STOWAGE).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (HANDLING AND STOWAGE).
AGRICULTURE.
  HORSES (EXPORT).
  HORSES (EXPORT).
  WHEAT (COST OF PRODUCTION).
  WHEAT (COST OF PRODUCTION).
  ARABLE CULTIVATION.
  ARABLE CULTIVATION.
  SUGAR-BEET (PRODUCTION, SCOTLAND).
  SUGAR-BEET (PRODUCTION, SCOTLAND).
  CREDITS.
  CREDITS.
  PIG CARCASES (IMPORTS).
  PIG CARCASES (IMPORTS).
  EMPLOYMENT.
  EMPLOYMENT.
  GOVERNMENT POLICY.
  GOVERNMENT POLICY.
  BEER.
  BEER.
  ALLOTMENTS.
  ALLOTMENTS.
COAL INDUSTRY.
  EMPLOYMENT.
  EMPLOYMENT.
  SILICOSIS AND ANTHRACOSIS.
  SILICOSIS AND ANTHRACOSIS.
  PIT-HEAD BATHS.
  PIT-HEAD BATHS.
  EXPLOSIVES (WAGE DEDUCTIONS).
  EXPLOSIVES (WAGE DEDUCTIONS).
POOR LAW.
  TEST WORK.
  TEST WORK.
  CHILDREN, DORSET.
  CHILDREN, DORSET.
  LUNACY OBSERVATION WARDS.
  LUNACY OBSERVATION WARDS.
  TRAINING CENTRES.
  TRAINING CENTRES.
HOUSING.
  INTEREST-FREE LOANS.
  INTEREST-FREE LOANS.
  DEVONPORT.
  DEVONPORT.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  MEDICATED BATHS.
  MEDICATED BATHS.
  VACCINATION.
  VACCINATION.
  WATER SUPPLIES (PRIVATE OWNERSHIP).
  WATER SUPPLIES (PRIVATE OWNERSHIP).
  HEALTH INSURANCE AND PENSIONS (EMPLOYERS' CONTRIBUTIONS).
  HEALTH INSURANCE AND PENSIONS (EMPLOYERS' CONTRIBUTIONS).
  RATING RELIEF (CHINA CLAY INDUSTRY).
  RATING RELIEF (CHINA CLAY INDUSTRY).
  WASHINGTON HOURS CONVENTION.
  WASHINGTON HOURS CONVENTION.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, BRISTOL.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, BRISTOL.
  ASBESTOS INDUSTRY (EMPLOYMENT).
  ASBESTOS INDUSTRY (EMPLOYMENT).
  CATERING TRADE (EMPLOYMENT).
  CATERING TRADE (EMPLOYMENT).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  JUNIOR INSTRUCTION CENTRES, WEST HAM.
  JUNIOR INSTRUCTION CENTRES, WEST HAM.
  RURAL AREAS.
  RURAL AREAS.
  INSURANCE FUND.
  INSURANCE FUND.
  JUVENILE EMPLOYMENT BUREAU, DEVONPORT.
  JUVENILE EMPLOYMENT BUREAU, DEVONPORT.
  OXFORD.
  OXFORD.
  LEYTON.
  LEYTON.
  TRANSFER OF WORKERS.
  TRANSFER OF WORKERS.
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
  AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.
  HOME TRADE PASSENGER STEAMERS (ENGINEERS).
  HOME TRADE PASSENGER STEAMERS (ENGINEERS).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  FRENCH WHEAT AND FLOUR (IMPORTS).
  FRENCH WHEAT AND FLOUR (IMPORTS).
  HOSIERY AND KNITTING MACHINERY (IMPORT).
  HOSIERY AND KNITTING MACHINERY (IMPORT).
  AUSTRALIAN TARIFF.
  AUSTRALIAN TARIFF.
  SILK GOODS, WEST AFRICAN COLONIES.
  SILK GOODS, WEST AFRICAN COLONIES.
EDUCATION.
  SCHOOL-LEAVING AGE.
  SCHOOL-LEAVING AGE.
  NON-PROVIDED SCHOOLS.
  NON-PROVIDED SCHOOLS.
  JURY SERVICE (ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES).
  JURY SERVICE (ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES).
  BETTING CONTROL BOARD (REPORT).
  BETTING CONTROL BOARD (REPORT).
TRANSPORT.
  TAXICABS, LONDON.
  TAXICABS, LONDON.
  ROAD MAINTENANCE (HEAVY VEHICLES).
  ROAD MAINTENANCE (HEAVY VEHICLES).
  TRAFFIC CONTROL (OUTSIDE ORGANISATIONS).
  TRAFFIC CONTROL (OUTSIDE ORGANISATIONS).
  LAND REGISTRATION (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  LAND REGISTRATION (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  PRINTING WORKS.
  PRINTING WORKS.
  FORMS (PRIVATE ADVERTISEMENTS).
  FORMS (PRIVATE ADVERTISEMENTS).
INCOME TAX.
  COLONIAL VISITORS.
  COLONIAL VISITORS.
  WIFE'S ALLOWANCE.
  WIFE'S ALLOWANCE.
  COMPANIES IN LIQUIDATION.
  COMPANIES IN LIQUIDATION.
  BANK NOTES, FIDUCIARY ISSUE.
  BANK NOTES, FIDUCIARY ISSUE.
  WHITE SPIRIT (DUTY).
  WHITE SPIRIT (DUTY).
INDIA.
  SILVER SALE.
  SILVER SALE.
  GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY (DISPUTE).
  GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY (DISPUTE).
  ESTONIA AND LITHUANIA.
  ESTONIA AND LITHUANIA.
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  RUSSIA (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  FIJI (INTOXICATING LIQUOR).
  FIJI (INTOXICATING LIQUOR).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
NEWPORT CORPORATION (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BRADFORD EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

CLACTON-ON-SEA PIER BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 143 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CONWAY AND PENMAENMAWR JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed for Wednesday next.

RESERVOIRS (SAFETY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD THOMSON): My Lords, this is a

889
Bill to strengthen the law for the protection of the public against disasters due to the bursting of reservoirs for the storage of water. The occasion of the Bill, if I may so put it, was a disaster in Carnarvonshire in 1925, which involved the death of sixteen persons and might easily have involved the death of a great many more. Shortly after there was another disaster on a smaller scale, in Scotland, and the late Government, in view of these facts, decided to review the whole of the circumstances and to enquire into the matter. The result of that review was to reveal certain disquieting circumstances in regard to the general construction, maintenance and inspection of reservoirs, and it became quite obvious that the law did need strengthening in regard to that matter.
Some of the disquieting features to which I have referred may be mentioned. It appeared that private persons and industrial concerns can, or could, construct reservoirs on private property without any special statutory authority or safeguards, and that, while it no doubt is the usual practice to appoint a qualified engineer in the construction of these reservoirs, that was not always the case. Further, it became apparent that there was no proper provision for the regular inspection of these reservoirs once they had been constructed. It is not pretended for a moment that all reservoirs were conducted under these somewhat ill-regulated conditions, but it appeared undoubtedly that some were. Another feature in regard to reservoirs was that the people in the neighbourhood, local authorities and private persons, were not able to obtain information in regard to these reservoirs. This ignorance was apt to cause a certain amount of panic and alarm, more especially as these two disasters had taken place with the results that I have described. And there was another feature. It became apparent also that it was difficult in some cases for proper compensation to be obtained by those who had suffered from these disasters, more especially in the case of reservoirs conducted by authorities with statutory authority behind them; they were not liable to pay compensation unless negligence had been proved. That often is a very difficult thing to do.
890
In these circumstances the late Government decided that a Bill should be prepared, and communications and conferences took place with various members of the engineering profession and representatives of large water supply undertakings. These conferences included the Institution of Civil Engineers, the Institution of Water Engineers, the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers, the British Waterworks Association, the Water Companies Association, the Association of Municipal Corporations, the Association of Consulting Engineers, the Convention of Royal Burghs, and the Association of County Councils in Scotland. In addition, though the English county councils were not specially consulted, it appears from page 308 of the County Councils Association Gazette for December 29 that the Parliamentary and General Purposes Committee of the Association resolved at a meeting on November 13, 1929, with Lord Strachie in the chair, that the Committee did not desire to raise any objection in principle to the provisions of this Bill. There are undoubtedly in this Bill certain points of difference which will require discussion, but all those I have come across up to date are mainly Committee points.
Now I will explain the scheme of the Bill. First of all, it is designed to secure the services of expert civil engineers during the construction of all new reservoirs. That is provided for in Clause 1. In Clause 2 regular inspection is provided for at ten-year intervals, and special provision is made for reservoirs already constructed. Clause 3 provides for the keeping of proper records as to water levels. Clause 4 provides for putting interested parties in a position to get information about reservoirs in existence or to be constructed. Clause 5 authorises such parties, if they allege that precautions have not been taken, to bring the matter before a, Court of Quarter Sessions. Clause 6 deals with the case of alterations to a reservoir. Clause 7 is intended to apply to new reservoirs generally the provisions which already apply to a number of statutory water undertakings as to the obtaining of damages in the Courts where damage or injury is caused by the escape of water. Clause 8 is a clause which may give rise to a certain amount of discussion. It defines what is a qualified engineer. In a

891
previous clause of the Bill it is provided that a qualified engineer expert shall be called in by the undertakers with a view of getting an outside opinion on the subject of the reservoir and its safety. I am given to understand that a certain number of undertakers object to this on the score of expense. The general principle, however, is that this precaution should be taken, and I think that principle would be generally accepted, though details as regards the inspection may present points of difference, which can be discussed in Committee.
Generally speaking, the underlying principle of the proposals in this Bill is to emphasise and in some respects increase the responsibility of the undertakers for the safety of their reservoirs, giving them certain specific duties, and giving local authorities and others concerned an opportunity to verify that these specific duties have been performed. It is not proposed to transfer any of their responsibility to a Government Department. It would not only impose on the Department a very difficult task, but would tend to lessen the sense of responsibility of the undertakers, and to that extent would be inconsistent with the objects of the Bill. The present Government decided that this Bill should be reintroduced and now recommend that it should be passed into law. The storage of water is on the increase. A recent drought has directed attention to the need for ample conservation of the water supply. It is to be hoped that no future disaster will occur; but there can, of course, be no certainty as to how long we may remain immune. It seems desirable to anticipate such an event by strengthening the law on the lines laid down in this Bill. In conclusion, I should like to point out to your Lordships that this Bill differs from the Bill laid by the last Government in 1928 in a few points of detail, those points of detail having been introduced as the result of criticisms that were passed upon the Bill in its original form in 1928. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Thomson.)
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM, who had given Notice that he would move, That the Bill be read 2a this day six months, said: My Lords, the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading said that
892
this Bill differs from that introduced by the late Government in 1928 slightly and in small matters of detail. I think I am not misrepresenting him when I say that. I hope to show your Lordships that it differs in very important matters which will appeal to your Lordships to prevent the Bill, if possible, going any further, or at any rate to have it amended in Committee. A short time ago we heard a good deal from noble Lords opposite about the Privilege of the Commons and how utterly wrong it was for your Lordships to do anything which interfered with that Privilege in any kind of way. I am not sure that the noble and learned Lord who leads the House did not say that he was so much impressed with this that he really could not argue the point at all. At any rate, he sat there and made no comment when my noble friend Lord Salisbury, I think it was, asked him what he had to say.
What does this Bill do? It infringes the Privilege of the Commons because it imposes a charge. If noble Lords will look at Section 2 (8) they will see that the Bill provides that the Secretary of State may make rules, etc., as to the costs of proceedings before and investigation by a referee—
"…so, however, that the said cost (including the said remuneration) shall be paid by the undertakers."
As far as my small knowledge goes, the Privilege of the Commons or the Privilege which the Commons claimed some 150 or 200 years ago was that any charge should be put on by the Lower House and not by this House. Here is a charge put upon the ratepayer and, if my information is correct, probably a large charge. Yet the noble Lord has said nothing whatever about it and appears to think that it is the proper thing to do. It appears to me that when it suits noble Lords opposite to impose a charge they forget all about the Privilege of the Commons. When, on the other hand, noble Lords on this side do not impose a charge but merely say that a certain Bill shall be deferred for a year, that is a gross breach of the Privilege of the Commons and cannot be carried out in this House.
Let me point out to your Lordships how this Bill differs from that brought in by the late Government in 1928, which I have before me. First of all, that

893
Bill did not allow the Minister to make regulations and, secondly, it provided an appeal—an appeal to the Railway and Canal Commission. This Bill allows an appeal—but to whom? Not to a Court of Law, but to the Minister who appoints the judge who has to decide whether the official appointed by the Minister has done right or wrong. That seems to me to be a flagrant departure from the principles of English justice. The Minister is to make regulations. Under those regulations he can appoint an official. That official can go to the waterworks and reservoirs of the great corporations of the country like Manchester, Leeds, and Glasgow, or to the Metropolitan Water Board, and can order those bodies to do all sorts of things entailing great expense upon the ratepayers in the case of the corporations and the Metropolitan Water Board. Then, if the corporation or the Metropolitan Water Board reply: "We do not think this is necessary. Our Engineers are very qualified men. We have never had an accident. None of our reservoirs has ever burst. We are going to appeal"—to whom can they appeal? To a referee appointed by the Minister who also appointed the man whose action is called into question. Yet the noble Lord says that the Bill only differs in a slight degree from that brought in by the late Government. I venture to think it differs in a very considerable and important degree.
Then there is this qualification in Clause 8 (1)—
"There shall be constituted a panel of civil engineers for the purposes of this Act, or if the Secretary of State so determine after consultation with the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers… a committee for the purpose …"
The engineers so appointed are to have the power of going down to any of the large corporations or large water undertakings and ordering them to spend money which it may be quite unnecessary to spend.
The noble Lord said that the reason for the introduction of this Bill was that five years ago in Wales, from which a great many bad things come, a reservoir had burst. That I believe is perfectly correct; but my information is that it was not a reservoir in the sense that the reservoirs of the big corporations or the Metropolitan Water Board are reservoirs. It was merely a dam put
894
across a river between two hills and, in consequence, it was not properly constructed. I do not mean that the dam was not properly constructed, but being a dam across a river between two hills, when there was a heavy rainfall the water increased in such a manner as to burst the dam. I do not know about the Scottish case and I will not say anything about it. It is news to me that there was another case. The noble Lord says that there was and, as I know nothing about it, I will not question it. But why, because some small and badly-constructed reservoir in Wales burst five years ago, should a Bill be brought in which will affect all the large corporations and, consequently, the ratepayers of the country and of a great City like London?
The noble Lord, as I understood, said that there were in the country a certain number of small undertakings which had power to construct reservoirs and that those reservoirs were not always properly constructed. Might I ask the noble Lord why he should not bring in a Bill confined to those particular cases? Why bring in a Bill which deals with people whose reservoirs have never been called into question? In these days when it is very difficult to find any money in your pocket and when expenses are increasing on every side, why should the ratepayers of large towns whose reservoirs have been efficiently and properly constructed be put to the expense which they will be put to if this Bill becomes law? I say the expense they will be put to, and I say it for this reason. When you appoint an official he has to justify his existence, and the worst of officials is that they can never sit still and be quiet, they must always do something to show they are active and that their appointment is justified. Therefore, if these officials are appointed, and their remuneration is to be paid by somebody else, you may be certain they will suggest and enforce regulations which will entail the expenditure of a considerable sum of money that will be perfectly unnecessary.
I may add that it does not at all follow that because the Bill was originally brought in by a Conservative Government it is a good one. I have never hesitated to say that in my opinion the Conservative Government, like everybody else, sometimes makes mistakes, but if

895
noble Lords opposite are going to change their policy, and if in the future they are going to say "What the late Government did we will do," and apply it to everything, then I am not at all sure I would not withdraw my opposition to this Bill. But I must say I cannot countenance a statement that noble Lords are to pick out one or two bad things which the late Government did and bring them in again, while leaving out all the good things which the late Government did. I hope I have made the House understand what this Bill actually does, because, while on the face of it the Bill seems to be a very innocent little thing, yet like many innocent little things, when you come to investigate it a little closer you find something very bad in it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ('now') and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months"). —(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
LORD THOMSON: My Lords, I think I will begin by answering the last question of the noble Lord, Lord Banbury, first. He asks why should the law in this respect be strengthened because a disaster occurred owing to the breakdown of a dam between two mountains in Wales. In view of the fact that sixteen people were drowned, and that the disaster might have assumed much greater dimensions, I think there is some cause for investigating the circumstances under which such large and potentially dangerous structures are to be put up. The noble Lord also asked: "Why, because that happened, should perfectly well conducted reservoirs, about which nothing has been said, be inspected by outside people entailing great expense to the ratepayers?" I think it is probably true to say that nothing had been said about that particular dam before the disaster occurred, yet the disaster did occur, and, shortly before it, another one had occurred, equally probably in connection with a construction about which nothing had been heard before. This Bill merely provides that what are elementary precautions should be taken in regard to such constructions in the interest of the public. As to the large expense that is thrown upon the ratepayers, I think the noble Lord is indulging in some slight exaggeration. I doubt if the expense involved in this Bill upon ratepayers is going to raise the rates by a farthing in any city.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: We are always told that on every Bill. I remember we were told when the Old Age Pension Bill was brought in that it would not cost more than £6,000,000.
LORD THOMSON: I think this is a matter susceptible of easy calculation. The fee to be paid to the expert is not going to cost a city like Manchester or Glasgow any additional sum on the rates. I should have thought that that was obvious. As regards putting these extra charges upon the ratepayers in the course of construction, after all this Bill applies not only to local authorities—it is not a local Bill in any sense of the term—it is a Bill which applies to all future reservoirs so far as the work of construction is concerned, and it will apply to all past as well as future constructions so far as inspection is concerned. These are perfectly reasonable precautions, and though this Government cannot be accused of slavish imitation of its predecessor, we are not too proud to follow a good example.
As to the point raised by the noble Lord in regard to the differences between this Bill and the last one, I did not endeavour to shirk that question. There are some minor differences. The noble Lord has laid his finger on one—namely, the question of a referee being appointed instead of a reference being made to the Railway and Canal Commission. I understand that that was a matter of general agreement. It was thought that the opinion of an expert engineer would be more valuable than that of the Commission, and I am not at all sure that the Railway and Canal Commission is the sort of body to which a question of that kind can properly be referred. However, as I said in my opening remarks, I have no desire to shirk any question which is germane to a Second Reading debate. I think that all the points raised by the noble Lord are essentially Committee points, and I shall be only too glad to meet him on any Amendments he likes to put down on Committee; but, for the moment, what I am concerned with is the general principle of the Bill, and that is to strengthen the law for the protection of private persons and those who live in the neighbourhood of reservoirs, to ensure that these reservoirs shall be constructed properly and inspected regularly, and to

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give some rights to the public in regard to compensation should they be the victims of any future disaster. It is on these grounds I present the Bill for Second Reading. In regard to its details, no doubt in Committee many interesting and useful points may be raised.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the noble Lord who has moved the Second Reading of this Bill has relied for its defence upon the responsibility of his predecessor. That is a very excellent principle, which my noble friend Lord Banbury has himself welcomed. Personally I have no accurate information about this Bill, as the Department to which it belongs was not one under my own personal supervision. Therefore I approach this Bill from a more or less independent point of view, with a slight prejudice in favour of what was agreed to by my colleagues in the last Government. I think the noble Lord has stated what is perfectly true, that these great water undertakings do potentially involve a certain amount of danger, and, if that danger is a real one, it is only reasonable that precautions should be taken against it. I cannot say that I think the evidence which the noble Lord has brought forward is very conclusive by itself. He has quoted two cases, I understand—he will correct me if I am wrong—neither actually of very recent occurrence.
LORD THOMSON: Five years ago.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: On those two cases he relied. I think it is very likely there is a great deal more evidence, in the Ministry of Health I presume it is.
LORD THOMSON: The Home Office.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I presume there is a greet deal more evidence than that. I do not think that two cases five years ago are very conclusive. But another element in the noble Lord's argument made a considerable impression on me. That was his statement—and I am quite sure he told us accurately—of the feeling of anxiety which exists in a certain number of people living in the neighbourhood of reservoirs as to the possibility of danger. That may be a very real anxiety—I mean really existing—and I think those persons are certainly
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entitled to consideration. For these reasons I personally should not like to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill. On the contrary, I think the Bill should be read a second time. But I think my noble friend Lord Banbury is fully entitled upon the future stages of the Bill to dwell upon those points to which he has called our attention to-day—in particular, as to the special methods of appeal in cases of difference of opinion. I heard what the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Air said in his second speech, that a referee who is an expert might be more relied upon than the Railway and Canal Commissioners. Well, I would not like to pronounce a competent opinion upon that. I have no very great love for experts in these things. An impartial person is the person one wants in a court of appeal rather than an expert. The noble Lord may be able to convince your Lordships in Committee that his view is right and my view is wrong. Certainly that point does require very careful consideration, and there are no doubt other points. But if the Government upon their responsibility come before us and say there have been accidents and that there is anxiety amongst a certain number of interested members of the public, then I think your Lordships would do well to have regard to those anxieties and to that evidence to the extent of reading the Bill a second time. Therefore I hope your Lordships will do so.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, may I say one word? My noble friend on my right in his remarks did not refer to Clause 7 of the Bill which introduces a new principle. Under the existing law, if works are carried out under statutory authority, unless there is negligence in their maintenance there is no liability for any damage by reason of the escape of water; but Clause 7 proposes to alter that, which means that although these works have been carried out under capable authority, statutory authority, there shall be liability in the case of damage resulting. That seems an unnecessary innovation and a hardship. There would be no limit, I fancy, to the amount of compensation to be paid and if these works have been carried out under adequate supervision, there should not be this liability.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, I should like to assure the noble Lord on one point. It is not in any sense a new principle. It has been applied in railway cases, and it has been applied under the Electricity Act, 1899, which at the present time applies to a considerable number of cases. There is no new principle of law.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, after what the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, has said I shall not, of course, put the House to the trouble of a Division, but I hope that in Committee—and I thank the noble Lord for saying he would favourably consider any Amendment that might be moved—we shall be able, to introduce such Amendments (and they will be very many and very drastic) as will render this Bill useful and at the same time innocuous. I am not quite certain whether I mentioned this point, that under the Bill the Minister may make regulations. There has been a very strong feeling—especially expressed by noble Lords below the gangway on this side of the House—that Parliament ought to make regulations and not Ministers. I shall certainly move an Amendment to delete that portion of the Bill, and I hope I shall have the support of the noble Lord in charge of it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PERFORMING ANIMALS (REGULATION) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill. The object of the Bill is to prohibit the training and exhibition as performing animals of two classes of animals—namely, the anthropoid apes on the one hand and lions and the larger carnivores on the other. The general ground on which this Bill is founded is that these animals, as the evidence which I shall produce will show, are wholly unsuitable for training and exhibiting as performing animals, and that they cannot be so trained and exhibited without cruelty and danger to the trainers in
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attendance. May I say at once that this Bill does not purport to touch, and does not I think touch, such societies as the Zoological Society of London and similar institutions, but if it is desired to have a specific Amendment dealing with that point I should be quite prepared to accept such an Amendment, if the House approves, in Committee.
May I tell your Lordships very shortly the history of the matter? In 1921 a Select Committee was appointed by the House of Commons, of which I was a member, to consider the whole question of the training and exhibition of performing animals. That Committee sat in 1921 and 1922 and took a very large amount of evidence from a great variety of people. In 1922 they made their Report, to which I shall refer in a moment, and in 1923 and 1924 Bills were introduced into the House of Commons and also into your Lordships' House to give effect so far as might be to the recommendations of that Select Committee. Time was not available for getting those Bills through the House, and in 1925 the promoters realised that in order to get a Bill through the House of Commons in view of the opposition which was offered by exhibitors and others, many of the recommendations of the Committee would have to be dropped. They thought, therefore—and I think rightly—that it was better to get an incomplete Bill through both Houses than to get no Bill at all. Consequently an agreed Bill was introduced into the House of Commons and was passed by that House and by your Lordships. It became the Act of 1925. This Bill seeks to amend that incomplete Act of 1925 to the limited extent I have mentioned.
Let me now refer first of all to the case of the chimpanzee and the anthropoid apes. Perhaps the most important witness who appeared before our Committee was Dr. Chalmers Mitchell, as he then was, Fellow of the Royal Society, now Sir Peter Chalmers Mitchell, the distinguished secretary of the Zoological Society of London, and I should imagine one of the greatest living authorities on animals of all sorts and descriptions. I should like to quote a short passage of his evidence. He said:—
"For many years past I went to every exhibition where performing animals were shown on the stage, and whenever I could

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I went behind the scenes and made the acquaintance of the animals and sometimes of the trainers."
Then, a little further on, he said:—
"I think it is monstrously wrong to train chimpanzees for public exhibition."
I will tell your Lordships in a moment what he said about lions and the other carnivora.
He went on to say:—
"I have no doubt whatever upon that, from seeing nearly every chimpanzee that has been shown for public exhibition."
Then he went on:—
"Chimpanzees happen to be what I might call almost hysterical animals. They are liable quite suddenly to rather violent fits of temper, and, as a chimpanzee has got both hands and feet and very powerful teeth, a chimpanzee in a temporary rage is not a convenient animal to deal with…I would include with the chimpanzee an orang or a gorilla or any type of the large man-like apes."
We had considerable evidence before the Committee to show that the training and exhibition of these chimpanzees and larger apes was accompanied by serious cruelty. Of course there was a certain amount of counter evidence on the other side, but the Committee weighed the evidence on both sides and they referred to the matter in their Report, which I have here if any noble Lord cares to see it.
In paragraph 9 of the Report they say:—
"Chimpanzees and the larger apes are unreliable owing to their hysterical temperament, which at times causes them to lose all self-control and become dangerous. Undoubtedly they have in some instances been rendered tractable by the most brutal treatment."
The recommendation of the Committee upon that point was that the training and performance of chimpanzees and anthropoid apes should be prohibited. Notwithstanding that recommendation, the exhibition and training of these apes go on, though I believe the number is much diminished. So much for anthropoid apes.
I turn now to the lions and the larger carnivora. The evidence before our Committee showed that in all tricks on the stage by lions and the like there must be cruelty to the animals and danger to the trainers and attendants. Again I will quote Sir Peter Chalmers Mitchell.
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He said this:—
"Even for simple tricks, lions arranging themselves on pedestals—"
perhaps your Lordships knows what that means; it is a very simple form of trick, but lions do not always appear to like it—
"and so forth, there is gross cruelty behind that. There must be cruelty to the animal and danger to the man.…It should be stopped."
I think you could have no stronger evidence than this, from a man who is absolutely impartial in this matter. He is not concerned one way or the other with these exhibitions, and he has had enormous and almost life-long experience of this kind of training and exhibition. I might say that lie was perhaps, in some ways, far the most important witness whom we had before our Committee.
It is rather unfortunate that it is very difficult, and often impossible, in this country to detect cruelty in the training. The evidence showed that in 1914—I have not the figures for recent days—lions and wild animals were mainly trained abroad, especially in Germany and Austria, and often by cruel methods that would not be tolerated in this country. An important piece of evidence given us showed why the lions and so on were trained in Germany. This came from a Mr. Lockhart, equestrian director of the Blackpool Tower Circus, who had direct personal experience. He said this:—
"Germans are the best trainers…perhaps because they are allowed to do things which would get us a very bad name."
I have a number of figures that were given in evidence before the Committee as to the relative number of foreign and British trainers. The foreign trainers numbered 110 and the British trainers 18. The evidence of Mr. Lockhart as to the reason why these animals are trained in Germany was confirmed by a retired actor-manager, who gave evidence before us, and by others.
I come to the report of the Committee regarding lions. In paragraph 9 they say:—
"The training and exhibition of savage animals, such as lions, tigers and so on, involve a certain amount of risk and danger to the trainer, who must necessarily enforce obedience—"

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your Lordships will notice the word "enforce"—
"to his authority, but it by no means follows that discipline can never be maintained without cruelty."
In other words, though cruelty as a rule is necessary, sometimes, apparently, discipline can be maintained without it. As to the Committee's recommendation, they did not recommend a total prohibition of the training of these particular animals, but they recommended that the training, exhibition and performances of all the larger carnivora should have the special attention of a committee of supervision which the Select Committee recommended should be set up, with power to the Committee to prohibit or modify any performance which they considered undesirable on the ground of cruelty. Unfortunately that committee of supervision was never set up. It could not be set up without Parliamentary authority, which was not received, and consequently it now rests with Parliament itself to deal with the matter. I ask your Lordships to deal with it by prohibiting this training and exhibition, which, as Sir Peter Chalmers Mitchell says, inevitably involves cruelty and danger.
The question of danger to trainers is a little beside the question of cruelty, but I think the danger to the trainers, if it is proved—as it is—shows the undesirable nature of these exhibitions. I have many cases reported by inspectors of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in 1928 and 1929, in which lions were asked to do these tricks and, in several cases, attacked the trainer and injured him more or less severely. I have here, if any of your Lordships care to see it, a long list of cases of injury to trainers in the years 1926 to 1928, some of them abroad and a good many at home. I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with the places or the dates, but I can give the details to any of your Lordships who desire them.
I think I ought to refer, however, to a most extraordinary scene that occurred during the course of an exhibition of these wild animals at the Tower Circus in Blackpool in October, 1928, when there were a large number of lions, bears, tigers and other animals performing in a closed ring. A free fight ensued between these animals, fortunately with no loss of life,
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but with a very extraordinary result. I take the description of this scene from extracts that I have from the Blackpool Gazette for October 18, 1928. I have the paper here if any of your Lordships would like to see it. The scene took place in the Tower Circus in Blackpool. The trainer was a Mr. Trubka, who came from Czecho-Slovakia. I believe that my noble friend Lord Auckland, who has great experience in these matters and who is going to support my Bill, knows the gentleman personally. Be that as it may, the "turn" was this: there were ten lions, which posed on pedestals and jumped through hoops; seven bears, which were drawn round the ring in carriages by dogs; two tigers; one puma; and two dogs.
The description of the scene in the newspaper—I will not read the whole of it, but only the important part—states:—
"The lions started the fight, in which almost all the animals joined, to the general consternation…. Lions, tigers and hears became a pack of snarling and roaring antagonists…. One of the most thrilling incidents was a lion and a polar bear rolling about the floor like a large football."
I am rather glad I was not present in that arena. The trainer, Mr. Trubka, who was evidently a gallant fellow, with a whip and a stick in his hand tried to restore order. He was unsuccessful, and eventually the hose pipes were turned on and the animals returned to their cages. Is that the kind of exhibition which your Lordships' House views with approval, or which you would like to see continued in the future, to the consternation of audiences and, I think, the great discredit of the whole affair?
I pass from that to deal with this point. It might be asked by those who had not studied the subject: Will not the prohibition of these performing animals impose some hardship upon the exhibitors of lions and other similar animals, and on those who take part in the performances, if the exhibitions are stopped? The answer is "No." The evidence which the exhibitors themselves gave before our Committee showed that this sort of exhibition had lost its popularity and was no longer an attraction, but often the reverse. It is not popular with the general public, although it appears in some cases to have some attraction for some strangely constituted audiences. It

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has the effect of terrifying children, and many exhibitors drop these shows out of their programmes.
I may quote the evidence of Mr. Harrop, general manager of the Blackpool Tower Company, where I presume that exciting scene took place. He said that he had been general manager for thirty years, during which for twenty-seven years he had a circus:
"For many years I have not booked any performances by lions, tigers, etc. Children get terrified…I find no falling off in audiences in consequence of this, but increased appreciation of the business."
The same evidence was given by Mr. Lockhart, equestrian director of the Blackpool Tower Company, and by Mr. Tressell, formerly manager of the Hippodrome. The last, named said:—
"I have had experience of pretty well every lion show in the world, but lion shows have rather fallen into desuetude as regards popularity."
Similar evidence was given by Mr. Bostock, the proprietor of the menagerie and various music halls. Therefore, it cannot be said if your Lordships accept the Bill, that so far as lion shows are concerned there is going to be any hardship upon those who, though not in such large numbers, still unfortunately exhibit these animals.
The last point on which I need ask for your kind attention is this. Some of your Lordships may be disposed to ask whether there have been prosecutions for cruelty to these animals since the Act of 1925. The answer is that so far as I am aware there has not. The reason of it is perfectly simple. There is the greatest difficulty in getting evidence of cruelty. Why? The cruelty does not take place on the stage in the presence of the audience and the public, but it takes place in the training places and very often, as the evidence before the Committee showed, behind the scenes. Inspectors of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals have no right either to go into the training places or behind the scenes during the performances. In some cases, some years ago, I believe they were allowed to go into the training places, but always upon notice being given, and you can imagine the value of an inspection of that character. Further than that, even the officer of the local authority, although
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given by the Act of 1925 power to go into training places under certain conditions, was expressly prohibited by the Act from going behind the scenes during performances. Therefore, you will see that there was practically no opportunity of getting evidence which would justify prosecution as regards cruelty behind the scenes.
As regards training places, what I have already told your Lordships as to the number of animals trained in Germany and abroad will explain why we cannot get evidence of cruelty in training abroad, and even in the case of training places in this country, although local authorities' officers are allowed to go into training places, the power is rather strictly guarded. They are only to go at reasonable times, and your Lordships can imagine how very difficult it would be, except by a very skilfully planned surprise visit, if it were allowed, to obtain evidence of cruelty in those training places. Therefore, I beg your Lordships to think that I have made a case showing that there must be cruelty in the training and exhibition of these classes of animals; that the exhibition and training still go on; and that there is no hardship upon exhibitors and others, at any rate as regards lions, in stopping performances which have ceased to attract the public to a large extent, or, as some say, to any extent. In conclusion, I would say that this country always has been, and is, in the forefront of other nations in regard to its treatment of animals, and this House has now an opportunity of showing its desire to take part in the great work of preventing cruelty to animals and to enforce those ideals which I am glad to think are more and more taking root deeply in this country. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Danesfort.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I venture to say a few words on this subject, because my colleagues on the Council of the Zoological Society of London have asked me to be in my place in this House when this Bill was introduced. I need hardly say that our Council, the secretary of which is Sir Peter Chalmers Mitchell, a quotation from whose evidence has been read, have no objection to this Bill in principle, but I was glad to hear my noble friend say that he drew a very sharp distinction between

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animals in zoological gardens and animals on the stage or in music halls or circuses. There is a difference between the two methods of keeping wild animals. If wild animals are being made to perform at circuses it is an absolute necessity that they should be ready daily, or twice a day, to go through their performances at stated times. They have to be ready for their turns, and to go on the stage according to the programme. Now, animals are apt to be very capricious. They are quite ready to do all sorts of things when in the mood, but at other times, as was explained in Sir Peter Chalmers Mitchell's evidence, which was read, it is very difficult indeed to bring them up to the scratch and to get them to carry through their performance. When animals are kept in a zoological garden, and not for regular performances, they are very easily led to do things which are very interesting to us, and which are really amplifications or specialisations of their natural instincts.
Your Lordships have often seen seals trained to catch their food from keepers' hands, or trained to go to a special place where their food will be. In particular, the higher monkeys are extremely imitative, and become quite ready to do all sorts of things—sit at table, put on clothes and take them off, and so forth—and all things of this kind are educational, and show how far the instincts of animals may be developed by domestication. If you are going to keep animals in zoological gardens it is necessary to domesticate them as far as possible, and the higher apes are tameable and affectionate, and they are much happier when they are in a domesticated condition when kept in zoological gardens. In order to get them into that condition a certain amount of training is obviously necessary. So that I think that in order to give effect to what my noble friend said he wished to do, this Bill would require some slight amendment in Committee.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, I rise to support this Bill, and I ask your Lordships' indulgence on the occasion of my first speech in this House. I do not think there is very much that I can add to what has been said, but I have owned and trained practically all kinds of carnivorous animals which are usually shown in circuses, music halls, and other places,
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and I have listened to trainers boasting of the brutalities which they found it necessary to inflict on the animals which they train. I maintain that most animals can be trained by kindness, and kindness alone. I have proved this beyond a doubt in my own experiments and training. I think some noble Lords have seen a few of ray animals, and they can testify that they show a response to kindness. Most of the trainers in this country are foreigners, and the abuse of their animals is dreadful. I think they might just as well be prohibited from exhibiting their animals in this country, and go back to their own countries and have their exhibitions over there.
The animals are interesting to us. We like to see them in zoological gardens and places of that sort. They are friends and companions, and I think we should give them as much comfort as we possibly can. They are abused in being transported from one place to another, being kept in shipping boxes which are scarcely larger than the animals themselves. They are often under-nourished. Their food is probably not fresh, and it is given to them in boxes where the food becomes foul as soon as it is put in. The reason why the animals which are trained by the professional animal trainers are subjected to abuse is that those trainers cannot afford to keep them the necessary length of time to train them by kindness. It generally takes anything from one to two years to train a lion by kindness, and the trainer has neither the patience to do this nor the money to support the animal during that time. I hope that your Lordships will support this Bill.
LORD JESSEL LORD JESSEL had given Notice of an Amendment, That the Bill be read 2a this day six months. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am very sorry to have to oppose my old friend Lord Danesfort by asking your Lordships to reject this Bill. It is always difficult to talk on this subject when naturally so many members of your Lordships' House and the outside public must at the first blush be quite in favour of this Bill. But I would like to remind your Lordships that there is a long history attached to this question, and that it culminated in a lengthy inquiry by a Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1922 and in the Bill which passed your Lordships' House in 1925. That Bill was described by the Minister

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who represented the Home Office at the time as an agreed Bill, and therefore I do not think it is quite fair to the House to introduce this Bill again as if no legislation existed on the subject and no evidence had been taken in the past. Very little fresh evidence has come out.
The owners of these shows have a great grievance against Lord Danesfort because he introduced this Bill as long ago as December last, and they have not known where they were. The noble Lord who has just spoken, and whom I congratulate on his maiden speech, has given his personal experience and has told you that it takes at least a year to train any of these big carnivora, and naturally these men have felt that they were in an extreme difficulty in not knowing whether the Bill was going to pass or not. They remind me of the unhappy traders in this country, who are still in doubt as to whether the McKenna Duties are going to be taken off, and I am sorry the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs and the Colonies is absent, because I might have reminded him of the state of uncertainty that prevails in the minds of the planters of Jamaica at this moment.
I maintain that the Bill of 1925, which allows inspection and licenses all these trainers, gives ample security against any of the grosser offences which no doubt took place in earlier years. Again, if there is an evil I think it is going to cure itself. The noble Lord who introduced this Bill said that from the evidence that had reached him there was no doubt that the popularity of the spectacle of lions and tigers being brought before the public was on the wane. If that is the case surely there is no necessity to bring in a Bill of this kind. I have been looking rather closely into the Bill. It will be found that among the animals to which it refers are chimpanzees and the anthropoid apes. I do not quite know why chimpanzees are specifically mentioned as well as anthropoid apes became they are a class of anthropoid ape; and I have always understood that they were the most gentle and the most docile of all apes. Then again lions, tigers, leopards, panthers, pumas, hyenas and cheetahs are included. I should have thought the hyena was extremely difficult to train,
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but the cheetah, as many of your Lordships know, has been more or less a domestic animal from time immemorial and has been used largely for hunting in India and other parts of the East. If one reads the history of India one will find that some Eastern monarchs have had not one cheetah but several hundreds at their disposal, which shows that they are more or less capable of being domesticated. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, who supported this Bill in his maiden speech, said frankly that all these animals could be trained if sufficient time were given.
May I direct your Lordships' attention to some recent statistics. The Variety Artists Federation wrote to the Home Office on the matter only last year and, with that courtesy and fairness which always distinguishes our public officials of the Civil Service, the Home Office replied in these terms:—
"The Secretary of State thinks it right to inform you that, in response to a recent request from Lord Danesfort for information as to the operation of the Act, particularly in regard to details of any prosecutions thereunder, and as to the method and system of inspection of premises, etc., which had been adopted by various authorities, inquiries have been made of the police authorities of those areas where upwards of five trainers and exhibitors are registered. I am to enclose a statement showing the result of these inquiries which has been furnished to Lord Danesfort, and of a statistical analysis which was also sent to him, indicating the places of registration and nationality of trainers and exhibitors registered under the Act."
It has been said that nearly all these trainers and exhibitors are of foreign origin and I will deal with that point in a moment.
I may say that there has been no case in which a conviction has been obtained during the four years up to 1929. In the proceedings instituted in London by the London County Council against registered persons the summons was dismissed in each case. The statement furnished to Lord Danesfort by the Home Office states that inspectors of the London County Council
"are required to visit every place of entertainment at which performing animals are exhibited. It is their practice to secure a seat from which the best view of the performance can be obtained, and animals are inspected in their housing and training quarters. On an average two inspections are made weekly by each officer."

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It is very nice to be an inspector of the London County Council and to have the best seat, but this also shows that it is not true to say that these animals cannot be inspected while they are under training. Anybody who has visited Olympia knows that you can go behind and see the animals in their cages at the back. Therefore, I do not think that can be justified—
LORD DANESFORT: May I be allowed to correct my noble friend on that point? There is an express provision in the Act of 1925 that the officer of the local authority shall not go behind the scenes during the performance. I will give my noble friend the reference.
LORD JESSEL: It does not matter.
LORD DANESFORT: It does matter very much, because that is one of the reasons why there has been no conviction—want of evidence. Subsection (2) of Section 3 says that no constable or officer of the local authority
"shall be entitled under this section to go on or behind the scenes during a public performance of performing animals."
LORD JESSEL: All I can say is that this report from the Home Office says that the animals are inspected in their housing and training quarters and that on an average two inspections are made weekly by each officer. Another very important point and one which I think will interest your Lordships a great deal more than the last point is the question of nationality. The Home Office paper shows that the total number of exhibitors is 148, of whom 102 are British; and that out of a total of 314 exhibitors and trainers 206 are British. It will be seen, therefore, that two-thirds of the exhibitors and trainers are not aliens but belong to this country. I need hardly remind your Lordships that this is a very big industry. There are no less than five great circuses in this country belonging to Mr. Bertram Mills, Mr. Champion, Mr. Bostock, Mr. Collins, and Mr. Sanger. They carry on a very large business and employ a great many people. If your Lordships think fit to sanction this Bill, unless an Amendment is inserted in it that it shall not come into law without due notice—that is to say, for a period—it will undoubtedly put a lot of people out of employment.
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I do not believe that this cruelty is practised. It has been stated in your Lordships' House this afternoon by a noble Lord who knows the habits of these animals better than anyone, that you cannot train them without time. There have been no successful prosecutions since the Act of 1925 was passed. I think that is the great test. That Act was an agreed measure and this Bill is very unnecessary in view of what has taken place. I have had great experience of this matter in a way and I know very well how extremely fair the Royal Society for the Protection of Animals are. When I was at the War Office as Deputy Director of Remounts I was in constant communication with them and I know very well what good work they are doing. But I think that rather too much has been made of this matter. There was a Parliamentary bargain in 1925 and I maintain that a great deal of the evidence that has been brought forward is not new. On that evidence your Lordships and another place were induced to pass the Act of 1925. Therefore, I think that this Bill is totally unnecessary. What makes me believe that the more is that the noble Lord who introduced it told your Lordships that in the experience of those who had to deal with shows, exhibitions of big animals were becoming more and more unpopular with the public. For those reasons I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months"). —(Lord Jessel.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): My Lords, on behalf of His Majesty's Government I with to take no very definite line upon this Bill, but only to put before your Lordships certain considerations affecting the matter. Like the noble Lord who introduced the Bill, I want to begin with the history. As your Lordships have heard, a Select Committee of the House of Commons considered this matter. That Committee reported in 1922. The Bill that was passed and became the present Act, was not passed until 1925. That Act differed from the recommendations of the Select Committee, as I think the noble Lord pointed out, in certain rather important respects. The Select Committee said

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that they thought that the anthropoid apes ought to be prohibited from exhibition. The Act does not prohibit any animal from being exhibited, but merely provides for the registration of trainers. The Committee wanted to set up the system of a supervisory committee which, I think perhaps not unnaturally, the Government did not adopt. Instead of that they gave power to the police and the local authority to inspect, as the noble Lord who has just sat down said, the animals' training quarters and their lodging quarters.
But there is, as the noble Lord pointed out just now when he interrupted, that very important proviso under Section 3 (which gives the power of entry and inspection) that no constable shall be entitled to go on or behind the stage during a public performance of performing animals. I can quite understand that that might have been argued for, and no doubt was argued for on practical grounds, by the people who exhibit these animals. They might have said, possibly with a great deal of truth, that the presence of strangers at the moment when animals were about to do tricks would upset the animals and put them off their performance. That might likely be true. On the other hand, it is fairly obvious that that is precisely the moment at which you would expect to find some instance of cruelty, and in that respect the evidence of Dr. Chalmers Mitchell has already been referred to. I have read the Report of this Committee of 1922, and Dr. Chalmers Mitchell, as has been pointed out, said that he could not imagine that it was possible, without cruelty, to make an animal perform at a set time in a set performance. It was contrary to its whole nature, and, in his view, it must involve cruelty. He did use the very language that has been quoted to your Lordships about the anthropoid ape.
That is the position as far as the recommendations of the Committee and the existing legislation are concerned. Now the noble Lord seeks to-day to go further by prohibiting altogether the appearance of chimpanzees and anthropoid apes, lions, tigers, leopards, and so on. The noble Lord who moved the rejection of this Bill, seemed to me to make two inconsistent statements in the course of his speech.
LORD JESSEL: No.
EARL RUSSELL: The noble Lord says "No," but perhaps he had better wait to hear what they are. In the earlier part of his speech he said this matter might well be left alone because it was obvious the industry was doing of itself all that was intended. Yet in the latter part of his speech he said this was a very important industry which was going to be interfered with. If the noble Lord can reconcile those two statements he is cleverer than I am. That is the position before your Lordships to-day. The view of my right hon. friend the Home Secretary is that it is not very long since this matter was last considered—that is to say, that there was legislation only five years ago.
Perhaps before I come to that I ought to say a word about the statistics. This return of statistics has been furnished to the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, and apparently is in Lord Jessel's possession too, and it shows that there have been, I think, one or two prosecutions, but no successful prosecution, for cruelty. Whether or not it is likely that there would be any, in all the circumstances I cannot help feeling that there is some justification for the attitude taken by the noble Lord who introduced this Bill; but, although it might not be cruelty that a magistrate could normally deal with, it obviously must involve very great discomfort to the animal to be kept in a dirty cage and kept at a railway station for a long time in a comparatively small cage.
For my own part I should, so far as I am personally concerned, deprecate the exhibition of these animals altogether, and I cannot understand the taste of an audience that desires to see them. I am very glad to believe, as the noble Lord who introduced the Bill said, that it is true that the more educated taste of audiences nowadays derives no pleasure from seeing animals in unnatural captivity, and performing unnatural tricks. But my right hon. friend does feel that it is rather a short time since the legislation on this matter, and that it might be wiser if some further time were to elapse. The Act that was passed has been referred to as an agreed measure. It was an agreed Bill in the sense certainly that it was cut down, as I think

915
your Lordships will agree, to the very minimum, in order that it might have the opportunity of passing in another place, but that it was agreed in the sense of any Parliamentary bargain which was to last for all time seems to me not to be a maintainable proposition.
A circular has been sent out by the Showmen's Guild of Great Britain and Ireland which seems to me to contain some statements that cannot be justified. The Showmen's Guild say they consider that this Bill is a gross breach of faith, and that they cannot understand why this move is being made by Lord Danesfort. I should think they are probably the only people in the country who cannot understand that. But really, to refer to it as a breach of faith seems to me to be an expression that is quite unjustifiable. There is not, and there obviously never would be, any Parliamentary bargain that cruelty to animals, if Parliament were satisfied it existed, should or could be allowed to continue. But it might be wiser perhaps if the noble Lord would adopt the suggestion I make. Assuming he got the Second Reading to-day—a matter about which the Government are entirely neutral—I would suggest that it might be wiser if he were to take no further stage of this Bill now, but would introduce it in the following Session at a much earlier stage. It is, of course, quite obvious, I am afraid, that it would have no chance of passing in another place this Session.
Introduce it at a much earlier stage, and then, perhaps, endeavour to get a Joint Select Committee to sit upon the Bill, and agree to it, so that there might be a reasonable chance of its becoming law, or of some Bill of this character becoming law. I think to take the Second Reading to-day would not really carry it further towards the Statute Book, because your Lordships know very well that it would not have a chance, I am afraid, in another place, where there was apparently great opposition before. So far as I am concerned, personally, my natural tendency would be to prohibit these exhibitions, and at any rate to go as far as the Report of the Select Committee, but the Government are taking no definite line on this matter, and leave it entirely to the judgment of your Lordships when you have heard the considerations that have been put forward. My
916
right hon. friend does, however, suggest that in view of the recent character of the legislation it might be wise to wait a year or two before anything more is done.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, might I say a few words upon the suggestion which has just been made by the noble Earl, Lord Russell? He will remember that my noble friend Lord Jessel made a great point of this. He said these people have been kept in suspense, that Lord Danesfort introduced this Bill last December, and had not proceeded with it earlier. I think my noble friend compared these people with the people who are waiting to know what is going to happen to the McKenna Duties, and said it was a very great suspense and very hard upon them. If the suggestion of the noble Earl opposite is carried out that this Bill be read a second time and nothing further done until next year, this period of suspense will be very seriously augmented, and the objection which my noble friend Lord Jessel raised, that these people would not know where they are, would be intensified. Therefore, with every disposition on this occasion to be on the side of the noble Earl, I think, on further consideration, he will see that it would be better if we are going to proceed with the Bill at all, to do so now.
With regard to the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Jessel, let me point out that this Bill does not alter the whole of the Act of 1925, but only deals with certain animals. The Act of 1925 dealt with all animals. This Bill deals only with certain animals. I would ask noble Lords what advantage is it to anybody that they shall see lions, tigers, leopards, panthers, hyenas, and cheetahs exhibited on the stage? What good does it do to anybody? It is evident that at some time or another there must have been a certain amount of cruelty in training these animals and it is also evident that keeping them in small cages, as they must be, and moving them about and compelling them to do their tricks whenever they are wanted, and not at the moment they feel inclined to do them, must entail a certain amount of cruelty. And it is no good to anybody. I hope my noble friend will see—I am a little doubtful upon the point myself—that there is a slight amendment made

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exempting zoological gardens, because I should not like to see zoological gardens included in the Bill. There is one other point upon which I wish to say a few words. My noble friend Lord Jessel said, I think, that there were five circuses touring the country.
LORD JESSEL: Five big ones.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: Five big ones, and that the result would be to cause very serious unemployment. But is that so? Take these large circuses. What is to prevent them doing what circuses did in my youth? They always had horses. I remember the ladies on the backs of the horses jumping through hoops. All that sort of thing could go on and would be a good thing, because it would teach children to be fond of horses and to desire to ride and to take some interest in that pursuit. That could go on. Therefore, all those people who are employed now could still be employed and the only people who would not be employed—and they cannot be very many—are the trainers who train these particular wild animals. As I said before, what on earth good is it to anybody to see a lion or a tiger performing tricks? It is unnatural, there is nothing to be gained by it, and I certainly hope your Lordships will pass this Bill.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I will not detain you more than two or three minutes, but I should like to refer to one or two of the arguments used by my noble friend Lord Jessel. I confess I think most of his arguments were anticipated by me and answered, and I do not propose to go over the same ground again, but there were one or two things which he said which may deserve passing notice. First he said it wars not fair to introduce this Bill. I think the noble Earl, Lord Russell, has completely disposed of that. Then he gave the number of exhibitors as returned by the Home Office. What I gave was the number of trainers of lions and these large carnivora, who were foreigners. He told us simply about exhibitors or trainers, but he did not tell
us whether they were trainers of dogs or seals or any other animal. He did not touch the point as to how many of these are foreigners, and in the absence of anything to the contrary I shall assume that the figures given in evidence, which were night then, are substantially right now.
On another point, I think he was hardly fair to my noble friend Lord Auckland in what he said. Lord Auckland said that you could by long, careful treatment train animals by kindness, but it would take a year or two, and he went on to say that in the case of these professional trainers they did not give that long and careful treatment of animals. They had to do it rapidly, and the result was that they had to use cruelty. That was really the gist of the statement of my noble friend Lord Auckland, and he speaks with great authority as having been a trainer of these animals himself. I think that in that matter perhaps Lord Jessel gave hardly sufficient weight to, or indeed explanation of, Lord Auckland's speech.
I do not want to go into all the other matters—they have been mostly disposed of—but I should like to say a word as regards the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that we could read the Bill a second time and not proceed with it. I think that would be a dangerous course. If your Lordships are willing to give a Second Reading to the Bill, as I hope you will, and to go through the remaining stages in this House, I hope—it may be rather too much to hope, but I hope—that somehow or other time may be found to pass it through the House of Commons. My noble friend shakes his head, but I never despair in these matters when one is on the right side and has a good case. At any rate, I should like, if possible, to have the opportunity if the Bill passes your Lordships' House of trying to get it through the House of Commons.
On Question, Whether the word "now" shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 33; Not-Contents, 12.

CONTENTS.

Canterbury, L. Abp.

Plymouth, E.

Mersey, V.

Russell, E.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Liverpool, L. Bp.

Clarendon, E.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Denbigh, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Alvingham, L.

Iveagh, E.

Chaplin, V.

Auckland, L.

Banbury of Southam, L. [Teller.]

Dulverton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Gainford, L.

Redesdale, L.

Charnwood, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Somerleyton, L.

Clwyd, L.

Leigh, L.

Stanmore, L.

Danesfort, L. [Teller.]

Marley, L.

Swaythling, L.

D'Arcy de Knayth, L.

Monteagle, L. (M. Sligo.)

Thomson, L.

Dickinson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Beauchamp, E.

Carnock, L.

Hemphill, L.

Grey, E.

Decics, L.

Jessel, L. [Teller.]

Iddesleigh, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L. [Teller.]

Shandon, L.

Lucan, E.

Templemore, L.

Stanhope, E.

Moved accordingly and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PARSONAGES MEASURE, 1930.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I rise to move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parsonages Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. I have to present to your Lordships three Measures, passed in accordance with the provisions of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, which have passed the Assembly and also the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament. The first, which is described as the Parsonages Measure, 1930, is a Measure of some importance. During the course of its passage through the Assembly it has caused a good deal of discussion, but I am happy to think that, with the assistance of outside bodies and of your own Ecclesiastical Committee, we have now reached what may be called general agreement. The object of the Measure is a very simple one. It is to consolidate and amend the existing law with regard to the sale and purchase of parsonage houses. Its chief object, of course, is to remedy a great abuse which is almost, I think, exclusively characteristic of the social and ecclesiastical life of England—I mean the contrast between large houses, fitting for the houses of country gentlemen of ample means, and the income of the benefices by which these large houses have to be maintained. This is the class of house that is familiar in the minds of those of us who have constantly to deal with them as the "white elephant house."
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There is a very general desire in these days to make it more possible to get rid of these houses, which are no longer suitable to the changed conditions of the times. Many of them, though not all, were charming residences, but it is pitiful to see how inevitably under present conditions they drift into decay. It does nobody any good to see houses of that kind inadequately maintained and the gardens going to seed; and all because it is perfectly impossible for the incumbent, under any circumstances that are likely to arise, to maintain them as they ought to be maintained. I need not dwell upon the point, except to say that the desirability of the sale of these houses is increasing. Many unions of benefices are proceeding throughout the country, and it becomes increasingly important to see that provisions are available by which the sale of the redundant parsonage house may be effectively carried through.
The present law is governed by the Statute of 1838, which enables the incumbent to sell his parsonage house provided that he obtains the assent of the patron, of the Bishop, and of the Archbishop of the Province. The new provision which will have force if your Lordships allow this Measure to go through will be that the parson must obtain the consent of the Bishop, as before; of the diocesan board of dilapidations; and of Queen Anne's Bounty. Let me explain the purpose of that change. The consent of the Bishop remains necessary, but a very interesting and valuable provision is made for the first time that, during the vacancy of the benefice, the Bishop may himself promote the sale. I know from long experience how important that is. Again and again you find it almost impossible to get a man to accept a benefice burdened with a too large house of this kind, and it would be of the

921
greatest possible advantage that the power to sell during a vacancy should be given.
Next the consent of the board of dilapidations must be obtained. This is a new body, called into existence by the Dilapidations Measure, and I venture to say without fear of contradiction that it now forms one of the most efficient parts of our local administration. These boards are working with great zeal and great expert knowledge, and they represent the best knowledge that can be obtained in the diocese as to the nature of houseroom required and the prices that are likely to be obtained and that are fair in the particular district. Then, in place of the consent of the Archbishop of the Province, consent must be obtained from Queen Anne's Bounty. This change has caused some concern in the breasts of Bishops' registrars and others, and not, least to the invaluable servants who have given me, as Archbishop of York, and now as Archbishop of Canterbury, their skilled advice in this matter. No one is willing to part with any of his privileges, and I surrender with some regret the privilege which it has been mine to exercise for twenty-two years, of supervising the conditions of sale of these parsonage houses, but I am convinced—perhaps it is not for me to say so, except that I am advised by expert judgment—that although the work has been done well, I think it would be better done by the body to whom the moneys obtained by the sale are o be transferred and who will have the custody of these funds and distribute them to the parish in accordance with the recommendations of any scheme of sale.
Perhaps the most remarkable difference made in this Measure is that the patron has no longer an absolute veto upon any sale. I think that is a right change. Experience has shown that it is putting a power too great in proportion to the nature of his interest in the hands of the patron, to enable him, when all the other consents have probably been obtained, to say: "I do not want the house sold, and I will not have it sold." Sometimes—I do not say frequently—that power has been used in a harsh and arbitrary manner. Often the patron is non-resident. Sometimes he has a prejudice in favour of maintaining a house in which perhaps in happier days some members of his own family lived,
922
but although I have frequently noticed a patron dislikes changes in the association of a house, he is not equally ready to provide the parson with the means of maintaining the house under modern conditions or the wherewithal to meet the dilapidations and repairs which have to be dealt with. Considering that the patron's interest is largely confined by the Measure recently passed, it would be giving his interest in the matter an over preponderating place to allow him to have an absolute veto. But I want to call attention to the fact that there are certain provisions safeguarding adequately the reasonable rights and interests of the patron.
These have been introduced into the Measure, after its first form, by a conference between the Committee in charge of the Measure in the Church Assembly and the Central Landowners' Committee, and representatives of the Bursars of the Colleges of Oxford and Cambridge. They are obviously closely concerned in the matter, and I believe I can say with confidence that these further safeguards represent an agreement achieved between the promoters of the Measure and representatives of these patrons' rights, and the rights of property. The safeguards are that, as before, notice must be given to the patron of any proposed sale. He has the right to enter objections, and his objections must be heard. More than that, if he has any objection to make, or restrictions to impose, they must be considered by a special committee, and the patron has the right to sit upon that committee. Thirdly, the right is given to him of pre-emption of the buildings, if he desires to exercise it. Another important novelty in this Measure represents the rights of the parishioners, and the parochial church council is associated with the patron in the right to receive notice and make objections or representations, and to send a representative to the special committee to which I have referred.
The other important change which has been made since the Measure was first sent to the Ecclesiastical Committee is with regard to the rules which Queen Anne's Bounty is entitled to frame for the conduct of sales in accordance with this Measure. Originally it was stipulated that rules should be made simply by Queen Anne's Bounty, but it was

923
pointed out that it would be much more consonant with the general practice of legislation and Public General Acts if these rules were required to be laid before each House of Parliament for twenty sittings, giving power to either House of Parliament to present an Address to His Majesty that the rules should be annulled. That change has been made, and a provision for bringing the rules before Parliament is contained in the Measure.
I think I have sufficiently described the character of this Measure and the changes which it introduces into the existing law. I would like to say before I leave it in your hands that it is an instance of how much we owe in this comparatively new form of legislation to the care and thoroughness with which the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament does its work. Here I may be permitted to say how greatly we shall regret that before long the wise and able Chairman of that Committee, Lord Clarendon, will no longer be able to preside over it. I note that the Ecclesiastical Committee not only recommend that this Measure should pass, but are also good enough to say that they are in sympathy with its objects, which they believe to be sound. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parsonages Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I had hoped that Lord Askwith would have been here to pass some comments upon this Measure. As he is not, I am afraid that I must inflict myself upon you for a few moments. The most rev. Primate said that this Measure was to consolidate the existing Acts, but it is not called a consolidation Act. Then, as regards Clauses 2 and 3, they, as he has said, have been inserted as being by way of protection for patrons, and are so referred to in the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee. I venture to say, however, that when the clauses are examined the protection appears to be largely illusory. If your Lordships will look at the people who compose the Committee in Clause 2, subsection (2)—I will not trouble you with their names
924
—you will see what sort of people they are, and how many of them are likely to support the views of the patron, who will himself be in a hopeless minority.
As to the right of pre-emption under Clause 3, this may be exercised by the patron by giving notice in writing to the diocesan dilapidations board within fourteen days after the committee has approved the sale. The result of this notice is that the notice itself is to take effect as if it were a contract for sale to the patron at a price to be fixed, in default of agreement, by an independent valuer, who is to have regard in fixing the value to the price offered by any other person. The unfortunate patron now finds himself bound by contract to purchase the parsonage house at an unknown price, and he also has to pay the cost of valuation. What patron is likely under such circumstances to purchase the parsonage house? The protection is entirely illusory. If this, instead of being a Church Assembly Measure, which this House cannot amend, were an ordinary Bill before Parliament, I am legally advised that it would be cut to pieces in Committee.
One more point arises. Under Clause 12, subsection 1 (i) provides that Queen Anne's Bounty shall make rules, and that such rules shall "define for the purposes of this Measure the expression 'the patron.'" There is already a very good definition of "patron" in the Ecclesiastical Dilapidations Act, 1871, and I ask the most rev. Primate to say why that is to be displaced by something of which we know nothing at all. Is it asking the most rev. Primate too much to ask him to withdraw this Measure if there is no great hurry for it, so that the drafting can be reconsidered by somebody more competent than the person who has drafted it? It has, I know, already been withdrawn once, so I would really suggest that it should be withdrawn a second time.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, before the most rev. Primate rises to reply, I would like to say a few words as Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee, and before coming to what I want to say about this Measure, I would like to take the opportunity of warmly thanking the most rev. Primate for the very kind words he used with regard to myself. I think it is probably well known that

925
the Ecclesiastical Committee, in the case of all Measures that come before it from the Church Assembly, have to examine those Measures very closely and send forward a Report to Parliament explaining first of all the legal and general aspects of the Measure, making comments on the expediency of the Measure, especially with regard to the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects. This Parsonages Measure originally appeared before the Ecclesiastical Committee last year, and very largely owing to criticisms levelled against it by the Ecclesiastical Committee and by other bodies as well, was ultimately withdrawn. But now your Lordships have before you the Measure in a very different form, and hearing in mind that the criticisms which were levelled against it by the Ecclesiastical Committee and by the other bodies to which the most rev. Primate has referred have been very largely met, I would plead with your Lordships to allow this Measure to proceed.
Let me repeat once more that the Ecclesiastical Committee have examined this Measure with considerable care and I will quote the words which come at the end of their Report upon it:—
"The Ecclesiastical Committee are in sympathy with the objects of the Measure, which they believe to be sound. The Measure is one which affects the rights of His Majesty's subjects, but they are of opinion that the special protection provided is sufficient, and that it is expedient that the Measure should proceed."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: May I ask whether there were any lawyers on that Committee?
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: Yes, several lawyers.
LORD PARMOOR: In reference to what the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, has said, may I say this Measure has passed the Church Assembly and also the Ecclesiastical Committee. We are not in a position to criticise it in detail; all we have to do is to veto the Measure or to allow it to pass. I think after what the noble Earl, Lord Clarendon, has said, the House will have no hesitation whatever in allowing this Measure to pass, and will not exercise the right of veto.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, with regard to the observations which have fallen
926
from the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, I would only say that I think the patron must have a very bad case if he is not able to prove it in the company of the Archdeacon, the representative of the parish, and the representatives of the Diocesan Board of Finance who are familiar with all the conditions of houses and prices in the neighbourhood. I do not think he ought to have a veto, but he ought to have a preponderating voice. With regard to the provisions for the right of pre-emption, I understand that they were agreed upon after full conference with the representatives of the Central Landowners' Association and the Bursars of Oxford and Cambridge, and that they did not seem to realise the difficulties to which the noble Viscount has given expression. As to the reason for including a definition of the word "patron" in rules drawn up by Queen Anne's Bounty, cases might very easily arise in which it might be desirable to know who exactly in each context was to be described as patron. I do not think there is anything serious in that objection.
I hope your Lordships will not wish me to withdraw this Measure. It was passed both by the Church Assembly and the Ecclesiastical Committee, and the mere fact that it has already been sent back to the Legislative Committee of the Assembly by the Ecclesiastical Committee, and that the Legislative Committee has taken note of those objections, shows the extreme care which the Ecclesiastical Committee, a most competent body, containing lawyers and public men of various kinds, have given to the matter. I think, therefore, your Lordships may be assured that, both in point of conception and of drafting, this Measure represents a great deal of mutual confidence and exact care.

ARCHDEACONBY OF SURREY MEASURE, 1930.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, It is now my duty to move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Archdeaconry of Surrey Measure, 1930, be presented to

927
His Majesty for the Royal Assent. This is a purely local Measure in its scope, but it requires special legislation, and the fact that by this new procedure such a purely local matter can become law without all the expense of a Private Act of Parliament is worth noting as we pass. This Measure has become necessary through that division of the great diocese of Winchester which excited an interesting debate in your Lordships' House some time ago. The diocese was divided into the dioceses of Winchester, Portsmouth and Guildford. It so happens that one of the canonries in Winchester Cathedral is annexed to the Archdeaconry of Surrey, an archdeaconry no longer functioning within the diocese of which Winchester is the cathedral church. It is, therefore, proposed that the canonry annexed to the Archdeaconry of Surrey should be suspended, and that the property which endows that canonry should be placed in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners on trust to apply the income towards the stipends of new canonries in the new cathedrals of Guildford and Portsmouth. There is nothing further to be said. It is obviously a good thing that the canonry which is no longer really functioning in the way which was intended should be altered, and that these new cathedrals should have this new measure of encouragement when they try to create their own cathedral life. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Archdeaconry of Surrey Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury).

MARRIAGE MEASURE, 1930.
THE LORD ARCHIBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I have now to move to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Marriage Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. This also is an innocent Measure,
928
though I hope that it will not for that reason be found to disclose dangers which the noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, described at an earlier stage of our proceedings. Although it may be described as an innocent Measure it is not an unimportant one. It affects the feelings of a great number of people at that important stage in their lives when they enter on the great adventure of matrimony. It provides that the present law shall be modified so as to allow a marriage to take place in the church which is the usual place of worship of either of the parties instead of in the church of the parish in which they reside. Your Lordships are no doubt aware that it continually happens that people are in the habit of worshipping at churches other than those in which they may be said to have only a geographical interest acquired by residence. If such people wish to be married, other than by special licence, in the church in which they habitually worship they qualify as residents, under the present law, in ways that are familiar to your Lordships. It is now proposed that where a person shows that a church is his usual place of worship by placing his name on the electoral roll he shall have the right to be married in that church rather than the church of his parochial residence, after the publication of the banns.
This Measure also has been in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Committee and passed through the Church Assembly with general consent. It does not raise any fundamental question of marriage. It was drawn up after consultation with the Registrar-General. It meets a very general wish, I think, and it affects no one in any adverse manner. The banns may be published in any parish church or public chapel which is the usual place of worship of the persons concerned, but it is provided that such publication shall not be in substitution for but in addition to the publication of banns in the parish church. The existing power of a superintendent registrar to issue certificates upon the production of which marriages may be solemnised is also extended by the Measure, which empowers him to issue certificates for the solemnisation of marriages in churches which are the usual places of worship of the persons to be married. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Marriage Measure, 1930, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)

GRANGE AND CARTMEL DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Marley.)
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS (SODOR AND MAN) MEASURE, 1930.
Text of the Measure: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and to be printed.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMITTEE.
Forty-third Report, being the Report by the Ecclesiastical Committee upon the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Sodor and Man) Measure, 1930: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I move that the House do now adjourn until Wednesday of next week, except, of coarse, for judicial business. There is no business on the Paper for Tuesday and I think it is unnecessary to trouble your Lordships to attend.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before seven o'clock.