Sitting of 27 January 1930

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Bournemouth-Swanage Motor Road and Ferry Company (Bridge) Bill (Certified Bill).
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  BRISTOL CORPORATION BILL.
  Read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That Part II and Clauses 14 and 102, and in so far as they apply for the purposes of the said Part II and Clauses 14 and 102, the Preamble, Part I, Clauses 15 to 34, inclusive, 113 to 116, inclusive, 136, 137, 143, and 145 to 148, inclusive, the Second Schedule, and Part I of the Third Schedule of that Bill, be committed to the Committee of Selection."—[Mr. J. H. Thomas.]
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: May we have an explanation of this Motion?
  The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. J. H. Thomas): The explanation is that it is in accordance with an Amendment of the Standing Orders, certifying that this is directed to the problem of unemployment.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Remaining Provisions committed (Bristol Corporation (No. 2) Bill).
  Chester Water Bill (Certified Bill),
  Coventry Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Croydon Corporation Bill (Certified Bill), Read a Second time, and committed.
  Dartford and Purfleet (Thames) Tunnel Bill (Certified Bill),
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
  Derby Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Great Western Railway Bill (Certified Bill),
  Kingsbridge and Salcombe Water Board Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time, and committed.
  Liverpool Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  London and North Eastern Railway Bill (Certified Bill),
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
  London, and North Eastern Railway (Hull Level Crossings) Bill (Certified Bill),
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  London Electric, Metropolitan District, Central London, and City and South London Railway Companies Bill (Certified Bill),
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
  London Midland and Scottish Railway Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time:—
  Ordered, That Clauses 3 to 29, inclusive, and 34 to 38, inclusive, and in so far as they apply for the purposes of the said Clauses 3 to 29, inclusive, and 34 to 38, inclusive, the Preamble, and Clauses 1, 2, and 39 of that Bill, be committed to the Committee of Selection.—[Mr. Thomas.] (London Midland and Scottish Railway (No. 1) Bill.)
  Remaining Provisions committed (London Midland and Scottish Railway Bill (No. 2) Bill).
  Manchester Corporation (General Powers Bill) (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time.
  Ordered, That Clauses 3, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21, Part IV., and the Second Schedule, and in so far as they apply for the purposes of the said Clauses 3, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21, Part IV., and the Second Schedule, the Preamble, and Clauses 1, 2, 4, 5, 22, 23, 63, 65, 77, 79, and 80 of that Bill, be committed to the Committee of Selection.—[Mr. Thomas.] (Manchester Corporation (General Powers) (No. 1) Bill.)
  Remaining Provisions committed (Manchester Corporation (General Powers), (No. 2) Bill).
  Metropolitan Railway Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time, and committed.
  Milford Haven Urban District Council (Water) Bill (Certified Bill),
  Newport Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
  North Cheshire Sewerage Board Bill (Certified Bill),
  Nottingham Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Reading Corporation Bill (Certified Bill), Read a Second time, and committed.
  Rochdale Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time:—
  Ordered, That Part II. and in so far as they apply for the purposes of the said Part II., the Preamble, and Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, 47, 48, and 50 to 53, inclusive, of that Bill, be committed to the Committee of Selection.—[Mr. Thomas.] (Rochdale Corporation (No. 1) Bill.)
  Remaining Provisions committed (Rochdale Corporation (No. 2) Bill).
  Sheffield Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  To be read a Second time upon Monday next.
  Stockton-on-Tees Corporation Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time—
  Ordered, That Clauses 13, 14, 15, 18, 39, 26, and 27, and Part III., and in so far as they apply for the purposes of the said Clauses 13, 14, 15, 18, 19, 26, and 27, and Part III., the Preamble, Clauses 1 to 12, inclusive, 15, 16, 17, 20, 52, 53, 75, 77, and 79 of that Bill, be committed to the Committee of Selection.—[Mr. Thomas.] (Stockton-on-Tees Corporation (No. 1) Bill.)
  Remaining Provisions committed (Stockton-on-Tees Corporation (No. 2) Bill.)
  Tees (Newport) Bridge Bill (Certified Bill),
  Tees Valley Water Bill (Certified Bill),
  Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    CONGRESS VOLUNTEERS.
    Mr. BRACKENasked the Secretary of State for India whether he proposes to take any action to disband the body known as the Congress Volunteers?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Wedgwood Benn): I can add nothing to the full statement of His Majesty's Government's policy which was made on Saturday last by the Viceroy.

    MERCANTILE MARINE.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Secretary of State for India what has been the result of the Conference summoned by the Government of India to consider the development of the proposed Indian mercantile marine; whether the Government of India itself put forward any definite proposals; and what action, if any, it is now proposed to take?
    Mr. BENN: No agreement was reached at the Conference; and the present position remains as stated in the communiqué issued by the Government of India on 6th January and published in the Press in this country on the following day.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Am I to understand that the Government have definitely stated that they are going to come to a decision in the matter, or are they going to have another Conference?
    Mr. BENN: I have no information beyond the communiqué.

    HARBOUR SCHEME, TUTICORIN.
    Major GRAHAM POLEasked the Secretary of State for India if any decision has been arrived at concerning the recommendation of the Madras Government to the Government of India for the free allotment of a crore of rupees to the Port Trust in respect of the harbour scheme at Tuticorin?
    Mr. BENN: I have no information regarding any such recommendation.

    OPIUM CONSUMPTION.
    Major POLEasked the Secretary of State for India if he can give information

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    showing the consumption of opium per 10,000 of the population in Calcutta; and how this figure compares with the League of Nations' Health Committee's estimate of the limit of legitimate consumption per 10,000 of the population?
    Mr. BENN: The consumption of opium per 10,000 of the population in Calcutta was 86 seers in 1928–29. The League standard, which was suggested for the medical and scientific requirements of countries possessing a highly organised medical system and has little applicability to the conditions of India, was equivalent to about 6 seers per 10,000.

    PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONS.
    Major POLEasked the Secretary of State for India to which of the provincial governments in India have powers been delegated under Section 96 (b) of the Government of India Act; what steps have been taken by the local governments towards the constitution of provincial public service commissions; and if he will inform the House if any general principles have been laid down by the central Government for the guidance of the governments in the provinces in the constitution of these bodies?
    Mr. BENN: Powers have been delegated to the governments of all Governors' provinces under Section 96 (b) of the Government of India Act. So far only the Government of Madras have set up a public service commission. Certain conditions have been laid down for the guidance of provincial governments in initiating legislation for the setting up of such commissions, and, if my hon. and gallant Friend so desires, I will send him a copy of them.
    Earl WINTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether he can make public the reasons given by the other Presidencies and provincial Governments for not setting up these commissions?
    Mr. BENN: I should be glad to meet the Noble Lord, but I do not know even whether the question could be asked in that form.
    Earl WINTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a White Paper on the subject?
    Mr. BENN: If the Noble Lord will put down a question, I shall be happy to answer it.

    AIR FORCE.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Secretary of State for India what is the strength of the British Air Force in India at the present time; and whether any increase or reduction is contemplated?
    Mr. BENN: There are eight squadrons of the Royal Air Force in India with about 260 officers and 2,000 other ranks. No change is at present contemplated.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Are these squadrons placed all along the frontiers of India with the object of defending it from the outside and not from the inside?

    STATUTORY COMMISSION (NEWSPAPER ARTICLE).
    Sir JOHN SIMON: With your permission, Sir, may I put a question to the Attorney-General? I wish to ask him whether his attention has been called to an article which appeared in the "Daily Express" on Saturday morning last from its special political correspondent on the subject of the Indian Statutory Commission's Report, in which the author professed to be able to reveal the main lines of that Report, and even to disclose differences of opinion between the members of the Commission; and whether the Attorney-General is able to take steps to prevent a repetition of these misstatements?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir William Jowitt): I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for raising this important matter without delay.
    I read the article referred to with surprise and regret. Such an article, if based on genuine materials, must have meant a grave breach of the Official Secrets Act, and must have implied that some disclosure either deliberate or careless had been made by a member of the Commission, or by one of its experienced and entirely trustworthy staff, relating to matters which it is their duty to keep to themselves. The consequences, especially in India, upon the future work of the Commission would manifestly be disastrous.
    I, therefore, communicated with Mr. Blumenfeld, Chairman of the "Daily

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    Express." On my pointing out to him the serious public interests involved, he placed himself unreservedly in my hands, and, with his assistance, I was able to ascertain that the person who furnished the information on which the article was based was an Indian journalist, a Mr. Vishnu Karandikar, living in London, who had for some months past supplied information to the "Daily Express" on non-political Indian matters, which had hitherto been found to be trustworthy. The information in question was contained in certain documents handed by Mr. Karandikar to the "Daily Express." These were handed over to me. I have shown these documents to my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Indian Statutory Commission. He tells me that they are worthless in character.
    Late last night, or rather early this morning, Mr. Karandikar, together with the member of the "Daily Express" staff who actually wrote the article, came to see me. Mr. Karandikar informed me that he came of his own free will and desired to make a complete statement of all the facts within his knowledge. He expressed his desire to make this statement in the presence of my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Indian Statutory Commission, who was good enough to come.
    Mr. Karandikar then explained that he was himself the author of the materials which he had supplied to the "Daily Express," and that he had no inside or secret knowledge whatever. I hold in my hand, and propose to read to the House a voluntary confession in Mr. Karandikar's own handwriting and signed by him:
    "I have no actual information from any official source about the story I gave to the 'Daily Express,' regarding a forecast of the Simon Commission's Report. The whole thing was written by me without any facts, made up by what I considered from my close study of the Indian situation must be taking place. It was a lie when I represented to the 'Daily Express' that I had any official source from anybody, either open or secret. This was suggested by me, and the plea bolstered up by further statements in order to sell the story at a time when I was in very great need of money and to get the most I can out of the same.
    "Signed by me, VISHNU KARANDIKAR, carrying on business as the Indian News Service at 143, Fleet Street, London, E.C.4.
    "Dated the 28th January, 1930."
    HON. MEMBERS: The 28th? That is to-morrow!
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It was written at a late hour of the night or an early hour of the morning, and no doubt he got confused as to the date. It was, in fact, signed in the early hours of this morning. I suggest in fairness that the good faith of the "Daily Express" is, of course, not in question, and, indeed, I desire to express my acknowledgment for the paper's assistance, without which I could not have got this information. I feel confident that after this experience we shall be able to rely upon the wholehearted co-operation of the Press in connection with the work of this Commission, so as to render resort to such powers as I possess wholly unnecessary.
    Sir J. SIMON: Might I, in a sentence, be allowed to thank my hon. and learned Friend, on behalf both of the members of the Statutory Commission and of their staff, for the way in which he has handled this matter?

  DEAD SEA SALTS (CONCESSIONS).
  Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has had any further communications from the French Ambassador with regard to the Dead Sea concessions and what has been his reply; whether any agreement has yet been reached with the French Government; and, if not, whether the whole question is to be referred to the Hague?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Arthur Henderson): The reply to the first two parts of the question is in the negative. I am not yet in a position to make any statement in regard to the third part of the question.
  Colonel HOWARD-BURY: In view of the ratification of the Optional Clause, will this matter have to come up before the International Court at the Hague?
  Mr. HENDERSON: I have nothing to add to the answer that I have given.
  Major NATHAN: How does it come about that the French Government has any interest in the matter?
  Mr. HENDERSON: I must ask for notice of that question.

  RUSSIA.

    LOANS AND CREDITS.
    Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the date in 1929, and the occasion, upon which His Majesty's Government informed the Russian Soviet Government that a loan by His Majesty's Government or a grant of the British Government's credit to the Russian Soviet Government would not be given?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The policy of His Majesty's Government in this connection was clearly stated during the course of the Debate on the 5th November last. On the 6th January of the present year, at the beginning of the negotiations foreshadowed in the Protocol of the 3rd October, I informed the Soviet Ambassador that a British Government guarantee of a loan raised by any foreign Government would be contrary to the considered policy of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, and that, consequently, they would find it impossible now to give an undertaking similar to that given in Article 12 of the General Treaty of 1924. With regard to credits, while there is no direct grant of British Government credit to the Soviet Government, credits granted to the trading organisations of the Soviet Government by traders in this country are eligible for guarantees under the Export Credits Guarantee Scheme, subject to reference to the Advisory Committee appointed for that scheme.
    Mr. SAMUEL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he gave a reply in direct contradiction of the present reply when he answered my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison) on the 22nd January?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I am not aware that I gave any such contradictory answer.
    Mr. SAMUEL: May I be allowed to read what the right hon. Gentleman said?
    HON. MEMBERS: "No."
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman, in reply to a supplementary question put by me asking whether, if British traders supplied goods to the Russian Government and the Russian Government defaulted,
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    the British Government would be responsible, said "No"?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I must have misunderstood the supplementary question.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is it not a fact that this decision to extend the export credit facilities to Russia was taken about seven months ago, and that it is now a very belated time to make a protest against it?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Does not the declaration now made by the Foreign Secretary amount to the fact that His Majesty's Government are giving a short-dated loan to the Russian delegation?
    Mr. HENDERSON: No, I do not think so.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Arising out of the original answer, what has caused the right hon. Gentleman to change the decision since 1924?
    Mr. HAYCOCK: How much money is still owing to us from the Russian Whites?

    BRITISH MINISTEES OF RELIGION.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communication has been addressed to him on behalf of any religious body in Great Britain as to the protection of British ministers of religion in Russia; and, if so, in what terms he has replied.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: Yes, Sir. I have received one such communication in very general terms, but not being aware of any cases in which British subjects are now employed in religious ministry in the Soviet Union, I asked for further particulars at the end of last month. These have not yet been received. I may add that, at the request of the British Embassy, permission has been granted by the Soviet authorities to a British chaplain to enter the country to provide religious ministration to British citizens in Moscow and Petrograd.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKS: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that any British minister of religion in Russia must be in danger—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"]—and will he take special steps to protect such ministers, or, at any rate, to inform them that they go there at their own risk?
    Mr. HENDERSON: In my reply to the hon. Member, I have said that I am not aware that any are there.
    Mr. BECKETT: Will my right hon. Friend take steps with a view to preventing religious propaganda of this sort in other countries?

    BRITISH RELATIONS.
    Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the subjects he has at present discussed with the Soviet Ambassador.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: Yes, Sir. In accordance with the Protocol of the 3rd October, I communicated to the Soviet Ambassador on the 6th January a statement defining the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards the General Treaty and the Commercial Treaty signed on the 8th August, 1924. This statement included the preliminary proposals of His Majesty's Government as to the method of dealing with all the subjects mentioned in the Protocol, with the exception of propaganda, which is governed by the notes exchanged on the 20th December last. The reply of the Soviet Government was received on the 25th January and is now under examination.
    Sir K. WOOD: In the course of the right hon. Gentleman's discussions with the Ambassador, has he raised the question of religious persecution in Russia?
    Mr. HENDERSON: If the right hon. Gentleman means raised it in general, I have called his attention to one or two cases.
    Mr. THURTLE: Can the Foreign Secretary say whether the Russian Government have drawn his attention to the fact that the Sermon on the Mount is frequently being violated in this country?

    PROPAGANDA.
    Sir K. WOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a recent article in the "Pravda," the official organ of the Soviet Government, stating that the British Government are keeping Indian workers rotting in Meerut Prison, and are openly shooting down unarmed
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    negro workers in Nigeria; and whether, in view of the undertaking signed by the Soviet Ambassador on 20th November last, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: I have seen the article in question, but I do not consider that it calls for any action on the part of His Majesty's Government.
    Sir K. WOOD: Is not this particular statement, quoted in the question, one of a similar number issued by this agent of the Soviet Government, since the undertaking was given on the 20th November last? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that that is a direct infringement of the undertaking, and does he not think that he ought to take immediate action in the matter?
    Mr. HENDERSON: The Government of the day, who carry the responsibility, must have some say as to the moment when any action is to be taken, if they consider that a violation has taken place?
    Sir K. WOOD: Are they not under an obligation to this House?
    Mr. BECKETT: Is it not a fact that British newspapers contain far worse articles than this article?
    Captain EDENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affair; whether he has yet received any reply from the Soviet Government to his recent representations as to propaganda by the Third International?
    Mr. MARJORIBANKSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has been given by the Soviet ambassador to the protest against the message despatched from the Third International to the "Daily Worker"?
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received any reply from the Soviet Government in answer to his communication with the Soviet ambassador in connection with the letter which appeared in a daily paper on the 1st January containing a message from the Third International; and if he will publish such reply?
    Mr. HENDERSON: My communication to the Soviet Ambassador was a

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    statement of the views of His Majesty's Government. I did not ask His Excellency for any reply.
    Captain EDEN: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any comments on it?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I have nothing to add to what I have told the House.
    Mr. HAYCOCK: Has the Soviet Government protested against the propaganda habits of the British newspapers?
    Mr. C. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received official information as to whether the Soviet Government of Russia is yet making any effort to suppress their anti-British campaign in Asia; and, if so, in what particular countries?
    Mr. HENDERSON: As I have already stated, it is still too early to form any definite conclusion as to the effect of the recent agreement about propaganda.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Has the right hon. Gentleman no information to show what they are doing or trying to do to stop this propaganda?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I have nothing to add to what I have said.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Then the right hon. Gentleman has no information or knows nothing and is doing nothing.
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations have been made to the Russian. Ambassador with regard to the activities of the Third International in promoting unrest in India, as proved in several recent cases before the Indian Court?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I have made no representations to the Soviet Ambassador other than those which I described to the House on Wedneslay last. The cases in the Indian Courts, referred to by the hon. Member, relate to incidents which occurred before the pledges exchanged on the 20th of December last, and, as regards the proceedings at Meerut, I would remind him that that case is still sub judice.
    Mr. BECKETT: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any communications
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    from the Russian Government with regard to the propaganda done by Members of this House to create trouble in Georgia?
    Commander BELLAIRS: Has the right hon. Gentleman made representations concerning the training of Indian students and others in revolutionary propaganda in Soviet training colleges, which is going on at this moment?
    Mr. HENDERSON: My answer is that that does not arise out of the question upon the Order Paper.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is exactly what I was going to say.

    DEBTS, CLAIMS AND COUNTERCLAIMS.
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether negotiations have been begun with the Soviet ambassador for the settlement of questions relating to debts, claims, and counterclaims.
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: No, Sir. The negotiations with the Soviet Government have not progressed beyond the stage described in my reply to the question put to me to-day by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood).

  EXTRADITION LAW (LUXEMBURG).
  Mr. A. M. SAMUELasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether there is in existence any extradition treaty between Great Britain and Luxemburg which would render it possible for the Luxemburg authorities to arrest in Luxemburg for extradition purposes a person against whom a British warrant had been issued.
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: Yes, Sir; provided the person whose surrender is claimed is not a national of the Grand Duchy and the offence of which he is accused is one of those covered by the treaty.
  Mr. SAMUEL: Does this mean that the position is the same with regard to Luxemburg as it is with regard to Italy?
  Mr. HENDERSON: I must have notice of that question.

  CHINA (EXTRA-TERRITORIALITY).
  Mr. BRACKENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he can table the correspondence between His Majesty's Government and the Chinese government at Nanking regarding the recent rescript abolishing the extra-territorial privileges of British subjects resident in China.
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: The only correspondence on this subject consists of three aides-mémoire which will be laid as a White Paper together with the text of the mandate.
  Mr. BRACKEN: When?
  Mr. HENDERSON: We have other things to which to attend, and we shall do it as quickly as we can.
  Mr. BRACKEN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the interests of British subjects are at stake in China, and that the House should have an opportunity of considering any protest which he has made to the Government?
  Mr. HENDERSON: Oh, yes; I do, fully.
  Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the present Chinese Central Government are exercising efficient control over the whole of the country?
  Mr. HENDERSON: That would be a very difficult question for me to answer.
  Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not the case that the position of British subjects at this moment is one of difficulty and perhaps of danger while these negotiations are proceeding?
  Mr. HENDERSON: We are all aware of the unsettled condition of affairs in China, but we cannot do impossibilities. We are dealing with the situation as best we can, and we have at heart the interests of British people who are in China.
  Sir K. WOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make a statement on the question of extra-territoriality in China and what instructions have been given to the British Minister; and whether he has information showing that two British subjects at Wuchow, the pilot and coxswain of a Hong Kong launch, have been de-
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  tained by the Chinese authorities, who have refused to hand them over to the British naval authorities on the plea that extra-territorial privileges have been abolished?
  Captain EDENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement as to the present state of negotiations as to the extraterritorial rights in China?
  Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make as to the intention of the Chinese Government to abolish extra-territoriality?
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: On the 20th of December, I handed to the Chinese Minister an aide mémoire stating that His Majesty's Government were willing to agree that the 1st of January, 1930, should be treated as the date from which the process of gradual abolition of extraterritoriality should be regarded as having commenced in principle and expressing readiness to enter into detailed negotiations with a view to agreeing on a method and a programme for carrying the abolition of extra-territoriality into effect by gradual and progressive stages. The text of this and two subsequent aide mémoires, together with the mandate issued by the Chinese Government on the 28th December will shortly be laid before the House. Sir Miles Lampson, to whom I feel sure that the House will extend its deep sympathy in his recent bereavement, had already received instructions to proceed to Nanking to enter into detailed negotiations. These were begun on the 9th of January and are still in progress. I have received no official report regarding the alleged incident referred to in the latter part of the question.
  Sir K. WOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since that exchange of notes a serious incident has arisen in connection with a Commander MacBride of the Naval Office, and can he give any information to the House concerning that matter?
  Mr. HENDERSON: No, I have not had any notice of that incident. I will look into the matter and see what can be done.
  Captain EDEN: Has the right hon. Gentleman been in communication with

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  any of the other Powers who are similarly placed to ourselves in relation to these matters?
  Mr. HENDERSON: The hon. and gallant Member may depend upon it, that we have been in close correspondence with the other Powers.
  Mr. BRACKEN: Does "gradually" mean that we are to scuttle out of China like we did out of Egypt?
  Mr. WARD LAW-MILNE: May we take it from his answer that the action of the Chinese Government, if correctly reported in the Press, is quite wrong at the present stage of the negotiations, and that they have no power to take the action which they have recently taken?
  Mr. HENDERSON: No, I would not go to the extent of saying that they were quite wrong. If the hon. Member wants information on that point, he must give me notice.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consider whether the discussions with China on the so-called unequal treaties might be conveniently dealt with by using the powers of Article 19 of the Covenant of the League of Nations?
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: His Majesty's Government have already initiated discussions with the Chinese Government for the modification and progressive abandonment of British extra-territorial rights in China, and I do not at present see that there would be any advantage in having recourse to the procedure open to members of the League under Article 19 of the Covenant.

  EGYPT.

    BRITISH OFFICIALS.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has in view any arrangements for the employment or pensioning of British officials in Egypt in the event of the terms of the draft treaty coming into effect?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: The position of British officials in Egypt has not been lost sight of by His Majesty's Government, but I am unable to make any statement on the subject at present.
    Mr. MARJORIBANKS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very great anxiety prevails in all ranks of British officials in Egypt, and will he give some guarantee as to future pensioning or employment?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I am not aware that that anxiety exists, especially having regard to the bearing on this matter of the compensation law of 1923. Perhaps the hon. Member will look into the connection between the two positions.

    GOVERNMENT (BRITISH REPRESENTATIONS).
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the inclusion in the new Egyptian Government of two men who were concerned in a political murder trial some years ago, he proposes to review the representations made by the British Foreign Office to the Egyptian Government with regard to their inclusion in a previous Government?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: No, Sir. So far as I am aware, one member of the present Egyptian Cabinet was concerned in a political murder trial, and he was duly acquitted.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not the ease that the right hon. Gentleman, in 1924, made representations regarding two men who are now members of the Egyptian Government?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I do not think it arises out of this question.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not perfectly clear that the people to whom I am now referring are the same people mentioned in the question?
    Mr. THURTLE: Is it not a fact that a subsequent inquiry completely exonerated these two Egyptians?
    Earl WINTERTON: Is it not the case that what the right hon. Gentleman calls a political murder trial arose out of the foul murder of Sir Lee Stack four years ago? Why does he describe the murder of a distinguished Englishman as a political murder?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I think everybody did. I think I could probably find that the late Government regarded it as a political murder.
    Earl WINTERTON: Why does the right hon. Gentleman describe the murder of Sir Lee Stack as a political murder?
    Mr. HENDERSON: I am answering a question which itself refers to it as a political murder.

    BRITISH RELATIONS.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the result of the placing of the proposals regarding the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty before the Egyptian people on the lines set out in a letter to him from Mahommed Mahmoud Pasha dated 3rd August, 1929?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: I have nothing to add to the reply returned to the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough on Tuesday last.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not the case that the letter referred to in the question definitely states that the proposals should be put before the Egyptian people? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that that has been done?
    Mr. HENDERSON: The Treaty has not yet been drawn. The conditions that were laid down have so far been fulfilled.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: I think the right hon. Gentleman is forgetting. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] I do not want to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman in any way. May I ask whether the condition was that the proposals should be put before the Egyptian people? It is not a question of the Treaty at all.
    Mr. HENDERSON: My opinion is that the proposals have been submitted to the Egyptian people.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman on what he bases that statement?

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    INTERNATIONAL LAW (CONFERENCE).
    Sir ROBERT NEWMANasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Government, in accordance with the recommendations of the 1928 Assembly of the League of Nations, will include a
    596
    woman among the technical delegates to the conference on the codification of international law?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: His Majesty's Government have at present under consideration a proposal that the delegation should include a woman, but no decision has as yet been reached.

    HUNGARY (OPTANTS QUESTION).
    Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Hungarian optants question has been finally settled by the recent agreement at The Hague; and, if not, what the position is?
    Mr. A. HENDERSON: Yes, Sir. A final settlement was agreed in principle and accepted by the parties concerned at The Hague; certain financial details remain to be worked out by a technical committee.
    Mr. MANDER: Does that mean that the incident is entirely closed and that the right hon. Gentleman will not have to go before the Council of the League of Nations again?
    Mr. HENDERSON: Yes, that is the position.

    IMPORT BOND SYSTEM (CEREALS).
    Brigadier-General BROWNasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the question of bounty-fed cereals was raised at the late Geneva Conference; what was the result; and whether the Government propose to take any further steps in the matter?
    Mr. FISONasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any statement to make concerning the representations made at Geneva concerning the dumping of German cereals?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Noel Buxton): I would refer the hon. Members to my reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis) on the 22nd instant, of which I am sending them copies.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: In view of the resolution passed by the Council of Agriculture for England at their meeting last week, unanimously imploring the Government to do something, is all that he is going to give them to say that

    597
    the matter is to be put into a pigeonhole in the archives of the League of Nations?
    Mr. BUXTON: I think I have taken the most efficacious steps and that we should await the result of the discussions which I reported in my answer last week.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when we may expect a result?
    Mr. BUXTON: No, Sir.

  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (PASSPORTS).
  Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that in the case of a woman of British citizenship marrying an American citizen she is bound to report her change of nationality to the local police; if the married lady desires to accompany her husband to the United States of America she is still regarded as a British subject and must secure a passport with a visa of an American consul; and if, through diplomatic channels, he can secure an arrangement with the United States of America by which a lady in such circumstances may accompany her husband as an American citizen or travel to join her husband in the ordinary way without the grant of a temporary passport by the Home Office?
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: Any woman of British nationality marrying a United States citizen thereby ceases to be a British subject under the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act of 1914 and becomes an alien, subject as such to the requirements of the Aliens Order, including registration with the police. Under United States law, however, an alien woman marrying a United States citizen does not thereby become a United States citizen. A British woman in such circumstances, therefore, becomes a stateless person and is not entitled to receive any national passport unless in the particular case she becomes a United States citizen by naturalisation. For the purpose of travelling to the United States, either with or without her husband, she is provided with a form of affidavit by the United States Consulate-General, to which a United States visa is affixed. I am afraid that, in view of the law in force
  598
  in the United States, it would not be possible to request the United States Government to issue United States passports in cases of this sort.
  Mr. HANNON: Does not this reveal a very anomalous state of affairs, and would not the right hon. Gentleman in these times, when such a kindly spirit exists between the two countries, use his influence to bring about an adjustment of this awkward and embarrassing relationship?
  Mr. HENDERSON: Yes, it is quite anomalous, but we cannot cure in six months what the late Government failed to cure in four years.

  PORTUGUESE WEST AFRICA (LABOUR CONDITIONS).
  Mr. MANDERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will ask the British Consuls in West Africa for reports on the conditions of labour in the Portuguese colonies; and whether he will publish these and any other reports on the subject that may be in existence, as was done prior to the War?
  Mr. A. HENDERSON: The Assembly of the League of Nations, and the International Labour Office, have for some years been pursuing investigations into labour conditions, and a questionnaire has recently been issued to all Governments concerned. The answers to this questionnaire will be considered at the annual conference of the International Labour Office, which meets at Geneva on the 30th May, and whose deliberations are held in public.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. STRAUSSasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the fact that only the cost of cheap railway tickets, which do not entitle the holder to compensation in case of accident, is allowed to pensioners undergoing treatment at a distance from their homes, he will consider the advisability of defraying the cost of ordinary tickets?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. F. O. Roberts): The requirement that for the purpose of travelling at public expense a return ticket at reduced rate,

  599
  where such a ticket is available, should be taken is of general application in the public service, and I have no evidence that any modification of this rule is called for.
  Mr. STRAUSS: May I ask whether it is not the fact that many of these pensioners, in order to protect themselves in case of accident, pay for an ordinary ticket out of their own pocket?
  Mr. ROBERTS: I have no such information, but, if my hon. Friend will give it me, I will make inquiries.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    ARGENTINA.
    Mr. ALBERYasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether His Majesty's Government have now made the required declaration to the Argentine Government regarding the non-imposing of duties or restrictions to the importation of certain Argentine food produce; and, if so, whether he can state the terms and exact scope of the declaration?
    Mr. GILLETT (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): I have nothing to add to the full answer which was given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on Tuesday, the 21st January, to questions by the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) and the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hurd).

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUELasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can see his way to issue a request to exhibitors at the British Industries Fair at Olympia that they should place their exhibits in charge of skilled salesmen to whom authority to make contracts of sale has been given?
    Mr. GILLETT: Although I understand that the majority of exhibitors do at present place their exhibits in the charge of skilled salesmen in view of the importance of the matter, I shall be glad to issue a letter on the lines suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. HANNON: May I ask whether the hon. Member is aware that at Birmingham every salesman is a thoroughly skilled person?

    EXPORT CREDITS (RUSSIA).
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether any applications have been made to the advisory committee for Export Credit Facilities for the exportation of cured herrings to Russia during the last six months?
    Mr. GILLETT: One proposal has been made to the Export Credits Guarantee Department in connection with the export of herrings to Russia since the extension of the scheme to that country on the 1st August last. The proposal was approved by the Advisory Committee but the first did not proceed with the business.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: May I ask how much is involved in the proposal?
    Mr. GILLETT: It is not usual to announce the amount.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether the British Government is now proportionately liable in case of default of bills of the Soviet Government's delegation guaranteed in whole or part under the Export Credits Scheme?
    Captain EDENasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what is the reason for the discrimination in the working of the Exports Credits Scheme whereby, upon the failure of the Soviet Government to pay for any goods exported to Russia from this country, the British exporter is no; paid his percentage of risk guaranteed by the Export Credits Guarantee Department?
    Mr. GILLETT: As there have been several questions on this subject recently and as some misunderstanding appears to exist, I propose to take this opportunity of stating the position fully so as to remove any possibility of misapprehension. Under the Export Credits Guarantee Scheme the guarantee of the British Government is given to British exporters in respect of certain of their exports to countries overseas, including Russia, which was brought within the scope of the scheme as from the 1st August, 1929. The scheme provides that in the event of default on bills so guaranteed, the Department shall pay to the exporter the guaranteed percentage

    601
    of the amount of the bills. This provision applies to bills guaranteed in connection with exports to Russia in exactly the same way as to bills guaranteed in respect of exports to other countries.
    Captain EDEN: Is the hon. Member aware that his reply is a flat contradiction of the statement of the Foreign Secretary last Wednesday, and will he therefore give his right hon. Friend a copy of the reply?
    Mr. GILLETT: A question I understand has already been put to my right hon. Friend. Some misunderstanding has arisen in regard to an answer I gave myself, and therefore I have taken this opportunity of stating fully on paper the exact position in regard to this export credit scheme.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Before the hon. Member leaves that point, will he tell us what he meant on the 21st January when he told us that the export credit scheme is going to guarantee the goods. Are the goods guaranteed as to value or as to volume?
    Mr. GILLETT: What I meant was a guarantee of payment.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Are we to understand that if the Soviet Government defaults the British Government pays?
    Mr. GILLETT: The British Government pays for anything they have guaranteed whoever may default.
    Mr. R. A. TAYLOR: May I ask whether my hon. Friend has recently had any representations expressing dissatisfaction with the present operation of the export credit scheme from reputable British manufacturers?

    AUSTRALIAN TARIFF (BOOTS AND SHOES).
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what the proposal is for an advance in the Australian tariff on boots, shoes and leather; and what will the percentage increase be upon prices of the above-mentioned goods produced in the United Kingdom for export to Australia?
    Mr. GILLETT: The tariff revision proposals, which in accordance with the usual Australian practice are in force
    602
    pending confirmation by the Commonwealth Parliament, include an increase in the duty on leather boots and shoes, boot and shoe uppers and tops under the British Preferential Tariff from 35 per cent. to 45 per cent. ad valorem, i.e., an increase of 10 per cent. of the value of the goods. Duties under the general tariff are being raised simultaneously from 45 per cent. to 60 per cent. ad valorem. No change is proposed in the duty on unworked leather.
    Mr. LEWIS: May I ask whether the hon. Member has any evidence that these proposals of the Australian Government will be in any way modified as a result of the proposals made by the President of the Board of Trade for a two years Customs tariff truce?
    Mr. GILLETT: I am afraid that I must have notice of that question.

  FOREIGN TOURISTS.
  Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he proposes to promote organised effort during the forthcoming months for the encouragement of foreign tourists to visit Great Britain and Ireland; and if any instructions have been issued to His Majesty's representatives in foreign countries with this object in view?
  Mr. GILLETT: The Travel Association of Great Britain and Ireland, of the Executive Committee of which I am chairman, is actively engaged in conducting a campaign for this object. Instructions have been sent to His Majesty's representatives abroad to co-operate by every means in their power and the Association is arranging for the distribution abroad of publicity literature, posters, etc. Committees of the chief British interests have been formed in New York and Buenos Aires to co-operate with the Association and it is hoped to set up a similar committee in Paris at an early date.

  AGRICULTURE.

    GOVERNMENT POLICY.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Minister of Agriculture when he proposes to make his statement on the Government's agricultural policy?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) on the 16th December.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a mere flea-bite of an answer? Is he aware also that for nine months now he has kept his schemes bottled up, and the longer they are bottled up the more likely they are to be useless?
    Mr. BUXTON: It was a very long answer to which I have nothing to add.

    BRITISH WHEAT.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can take steps to introduce legislation to require every miller to use a certain percentage of British wheat in all wheat milled in this country, and that every baker should use a fixed percentage of British flour every year in proportion to his annual purchases?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: I am not in a position to add to the replies which I gave on the 18th November and 2nd December last to similar questions by the hon. and gallant Member.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my question on that date was a very different one; it was with regard to a certain percentage in the loaf. This question is with regard to the percentage of wheat milled by the miller?
    Mr. BUXTON: The answer would be similar to that to almost the same question on the date mentioned.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Seeing that this is so successful in other countries, cannot the right hon. Gentleman try it in this country?

    LAND NATIONALISATION.
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Agriculture when he proposes to introduce a Bill for the nationalisation of agricultural land?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: It is not proposed to introduce legislation on this subject during the present Session.

    MARKETING.
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Agriculture when he proposes to take
    604
    steps to set up a national distribution board to lessen the cost and more efficiently control the marketing of agricultural produce in this country?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The problem of marketing organisation is best approached on commodity lines and generally through standardisation schemes, such as those already adopted under the National Mark for eggs, fruit, etc., and others which I hope to introduce shortly. These, in themselves, operate to increase the efficiency and, therefore, reduce the cost of distribution.
    Mr. MORLEY: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the American Federal Farm Board, and would not an organisation of similar character be practicable and useful in this country?
    Mr. BUXTON: I have studied that matter carefully. If the hon. Gentleman has any definite suggestions to make, I hope that he will send them to me.

    GRAIN PURCHASES (STABILISATION).
    Mr. MORLEYasked the Minister of Agriculture when he proposes to lay before the House of Commons a scheme for the setting up of a national import board to control the supplies of imported wheat?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: I am not in a position to add anything to my reply to a similar question put to me by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) on the 23rd December. I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. MORLEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the questions I have asked contain policies drawn from books and articles which he himself has written, and would he use his influence with his colleagues in the Cabinet to get the policies introduced as legislation as speedily as possible?
    Mr. BUXTON: A scheme is being very carefully studied by several of the Departments concerned.
    Earl WINTERTON: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what further period of gestation his Department will require to produce the scheme which he and his party promised at the last election?
    Mr. BUXTON: I am afraid that I cannot state the period.

    MILK SUPPLIES, SOUTH-EASTERN COUNTIES.
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the last Report of the Development Commission in regard to the south-eastern province, including Kent, Surrey, and East and West Sussex, and to the statement that only 15 of the farmers in the province are taking advantage of the facilities offered by the South-Eastern Agricultural College for the periodical tests to ensure a satisfactory standard of cleanliness in their milk; whether he can state the total number of milk producers in the province; and what steps are being taken to induce a larger number to make use of the facilities offered?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I regret that I am unable to give the information asked for in the second part of the question. In reply to the last part, I may explain that the tests to which my hon. Friend refers are carried out under a special scheme of the College, which forms only a very small part of the College's work for the improvement of the milk supply. I am informed, however, that the College hopes to obtain an increase in the number of milk samples submitted under this scheme as the result of the reduction of the charge to farmers for the analyses.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Is it not a fact that many counties already have milk recording societies, to which many thousands of farmers belong, and that they have competitions and take samples of milk; and would not such a scheme attain the same object as certificating clean milk?
    Mr. BUXTON: Yes, that is certainly the case.
    Mr. EDE: Is it not a fact that the county agricultural committees in the counties concerned also have their clean milk competitions, and will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to secure that there shall be no overlapping between those county committees and the Wye Committee?
    Mr. BUXTON: The Ministry will endeavour to do that.

    DUTCH HALF-MILK CHEESE.
    Brigadier-General MAKINSasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any proof that imported Dutch skimmed-milk cheese is sold in England as genuine English produce?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: From reports which have reached my Department from time to time, it appears that prosecutions have been successfully instituted by various local authorities for the sale of Dutch half-milk cheese as full milk cheese. These reports, however, do not indicate whether the sampling officer, when purchasing the sample on which legal proceedings were based, specifically asked for English produce.
    Brigadier-General MAKINS: Could not the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to see that consumers do not get this foreign, low-grade cheese foisted upon them?
    Mr. BUXTON: It lies with the local authorities to make the necessary inquiries. Prosecutions would have to be taken under Part I of the Merchandise Marks Act of 1926, which, I understand, is very difficult to apply in such cases, though endeavours are made.

    CONFERENCE.
    Captain Sir GEORGE BOWYERasked the Minister of Agriculture whether the agricultural policy of His Majesty's Government has been or is being placed before the Agricultural Conference now sitting?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: It has been decided that the proceedings of the Agricultural Conference should be private, and in these circumstances I am not prepared to answer questions as to the matters before it.
    Sir K. WOOD: Will the Minister explain why this Conference is being held in private, seeing that it is a matter of great public importance and especially as the right hon. Gentleman has not announced his policy?

    BRITISH MEAT (NATIONAL MARK).
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, as the result of inquiries by his officials, he can state approximately the percentage of hotels and restaurants in the West End of

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    London which serve British meat; and whether means can be taken under the national-mark scheme to encourage the practice?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: I have no exact information on the subject, but the percentage of hotels and restaurants in the West End of London which serve British meat is very low. Inquiries made by officers of the Ministry from the wholesale trade indicate that in the case of British beef the percentage does not exceed five. The national mark beef scheme provides restaurants and hotels with a guarantee that the beef that they buy is home killed or Scotch killed. The Ministry is taking steps to impress this fact on the notice of managers.
    Mr. HURD: What distinction is made between home-killed and Scotch-killed? Is not Scotch-killed home-killed?
    Mr. BUXTON: There is no distinction except in the nature of the mark put upon it.
    Earl WINTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate with his colleague who is responsible for the Government Hospitality Fund to see that no dinner at the expense of that Fund is given at any of the hotels which refuse to serve this meat?
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how he expects West End hotels to buy this meat, when the Secretary of State for War will not do so?
    Mr. W. B. TAYLORasked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent the national mark has been applied to homegrown meat; and in what markets and centres is it in operation?
    Mr. BUXTON: The only home-grown meat for which a National Mark scheme has so far been established is beef. Experimental schemes for home-killed beef are in operation for cattle slaughtered at Birkenhead and Islington for the London market and also for cattle slaughtered at Birmingham for the Birmingham market, while an experimental scheme for Scotch-killed beef is in operation in Aberdeenshire and neighbouring districts for Scotch-killed beef consigned to London.
    Mr. GUINNESS: Is there any foundation for the suggestion in the Press that this scheme has been held up by boycotting on the part of certain butchers?
    Mr. BUXTON: There has been an attempt, but it is in course of being defeated.

    IMPORTED PRODUCE.
    Lord FERMOYasked the Minister of Agriculture if any French wheat is now being imported into this country; if so, to what extent and at what price; and what is the price of imported foreign oats at the present time compared with that obtained by the British grower?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The quantity of wheat imported from France is insignificant, amounting to only 38 cwt. for the first four months of the current cereal year, i.e., September to December, 1929. The latest price quotation available was from 38s. 3d. to 39s. 3d. per 480 lb. c.i.f. The latest quotations for oats at London were as follows:—English 7s. 6d. per cwt., Argentine 6s. 3d., and German 6s. 10d.

    LAND OWNERSHIP (STATISTICS).
    Mr. C. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the number of individual owners of land in Great Britain?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. PALMER: Will these figures include the relative amounts of taxation that ought to be paid upon these lands?
    Following is the answer:
    Information as to the number of individual owners of land in Great Britain is not available from the returns collected by the Ministry, but the numbers and acreage of agricultural holdings owned or mainly owned by the occupiers in England and Wales and Scotland in 1927, the latest year in which these particulars were obtained, were as follow:

    Acres.

    Number.

    England

    …

    8,194,336

    125,244

    Wales

    …

    1,031,398

    21,643

    Scotland

    …

    1,226,393

    12,920

    10,452,127

    159,807

    SMALL HOLDINGS.
    Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Agriculture what was the total annual rent-roll of small holdings under county councils for the year ended 31st March, 1929, and the total arrears of rent at that date or the nearest convenient date?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The total annual rent roll of small holdings provided by County Councils and Councils of County Boroughs in England and Wales at the 31st December, 1928, the latest date for which figures are available, was £941,008. I have no information as to the amount of arrears.

    POTATO EXPORTS (UNITED STATES).
    Major COLVILLEasked the Minister of Agriculture if any progress has been made in the matter of securing the admission of British potatoes to America; and what efforts are being made in that direction?
    Mr. BLINDELLasked the Minister of Agriculture if be is aware that potato merchants in this country have substantial orders for British potatoes for exportation to the United States of America if the embargo against their importation is removed, and that American potato merchants are making representations to their Government with a view to its removal; and will he inform the House what action His Majesty's Government are taking in the matter?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: I have explored the question of the restrictions now in force against the entry of British potatoes into the United States of America, and can see no hope of the removal of the embargo. The embargo was imposed on grounds of disease, and it is therefore impossible to challenge the right of an importing country to control its imports.
    Mr. BLINDELL: Would it be possible for potatoes to be sent quite free from disease and a guarantee given to that effect at the moment?
    Mr. BUXTON: No, Sir. I wish it were, but I regret to say that it is not possible.
    Mr. BLINDELL: Are we to understand from that reply that it is impossible for British potatoes to be exported to America guaranteed free from disease?
    Mr. BUXTON: There are certain districts where it would not be possible to give such a guarantee.
    Mr. BLINDELL: Could we not export British potatoes, from any district, with a certificate that they are absolutely free from disease.
    Mr. BUXTON: We could from certain districts. That is a matter of negotiation with the Government of the United States but I regret to say that the negotiations so far have not been successful.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can we not do exactly the same as the United States, seeing that we are importing potatoes from other countries which cannot give a complete guarantee of immunity from disease?
    Mr. BUXTON: Negotiations on the matter are being pursued as energetically as possible.
    Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR: Is it not the case that certificates can be provided in connection with the export of seed potatoes stating that they are free from disease; and why cannot similar certificates be provided for other potatoes?
    Mr. BUXTON: That also is a part of the attempted negotiation.

  FISHING INDUSTRY.

    SHELL FISHERIES.
    Viscount ELMLEYasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will inquire into the possibility of establishing oyster fisheries off the Norfolk coast between Happisburgh and Yarmouth?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The conditions usually associated with successful oyster cultivation are not found along the stretch of coast referred to in the question. I am sending the Noble Lord a copy of a report of an inquiry recently conducted along the north coast of Norfolk, where the conditions appear to be more favourable.
    Captain HAROLD BALFOURasked the Minister of Agriculture at what date his Department will begin to search for new crab and lobster fishing grounds; and, when found, does he propose to develop the new grounds for breeding purposes?
    Mr. BUXTON: It is intended that operations shall be begun in the spring or early summer. With regard to the second part of the question, I am advised that the cultivation of crabs and lobsters in the open sea is not a practical proposition.
    Mr. C. WILLIAMS: Where will this research be made, on which seas?
    Mr. BUXTON: There are several, and, if the hon. Member will put a question on the Paper, I will give him the precise information.

    DISTRIBUTION AND SALE.
    Mr. WEST RUSSELLasked the Minister of Agriculture (1) what active steps his Department is taking to encourage and assist generally in the development of the sale of fresh demersal fish in the home and export markets;
    (2) whether his Department is taking any active steps to extend the distribution and sale of fresh fish in home inland districts?
    Mr. N. BUXTON: The British Trawlers' Federation is conducting a most efficient advertising campaign to encourage the consumption of fish in this country, and the Empire Marketing Board is seconding their efforts. The general question of the distribution and marketing of fish at home and abroad is engaging the attention of the Sub-Committee of the Committee of Civil Research appointed to inquire into the fishing industry.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: For the information, of many hon. Members, would the right hon. Gentleman say what "demersal fish" is?
    Mr. BUXTON: In general, fish which are caught by trawlers. Pelagic fish are those caught by drift nets.

  ECONOMIC ADVISORY COUNCIL.
  Mr. BECKETTasked the Prime Minister what the composition and numbers of the new Economic Council will be; whether any appointments have yet been made; and, if so, what they are?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): As regards the first part of the question, I must ask my hon. Friend
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  to await the White Paper which I have promised. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
  Mr. BECKETT: Are the statements that have been made as to the appointment of officials incorrect?
  The PRIME MINISTER: If any statements have been made that officials have been appointed, they are incorrect. I have not seen them.
  Mr. BRACKEN: Have any representations been made by the Trade Union Congress against one of the gentlemen selected?
  The PRIME MINISTER: There is not the shadow of foundation for such a statement, and this is the first that I have heard of it.
  Mr. BECKETT: Is the Prime Minister aware that the appointment of a joint secretariat has been announced in the whole of the Press?

  EAST AFRICA (GOVERNMENT POLICY).
  Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the policy of the Government with regard to East Africa; and whether the House will have an opportunity of debating the Government proposals?
  The PRIME MINISTER: This matter is at present under the consideration of the Government. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

  UNEMPLOYMENT (AGRICULTURAL WORKERS).
  Sir VICTOR WARRENDERasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any information showing the numbers of agricultural labourers at present unemployed; and, if so, whether he can give the figures for each county?
  Mr. LAMBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has information from the crop reporters of the, Ministry as to the extent of unemployment among agricultural workers; and, if not, will he direct that such information shall be supplied?
  Mr. N. BUXTON: In their monthly reports to the Ministry the crop reporters give information as to the supply of labour in relation to farmers' requirements, but the reports are not in a position to ascertain the number of agricultural workers out of employment. There is no machinery at present in existence for obtaining exact statistics.
  Sir VICTOR WARRENDER: In view of the support among members of the right hon. Gentleman's party for the extension of unemployment insurance to farm workers, is it not about time that the right hon. Gentleman found some means of ascertaining this information?
  Mr. BUXTON: Means can only be found through such an Act as the Unemployment Insurance Act and its system. What can be obtained is general information, and that is obtained as far as possible, but exact statistics are not available.
  Mr. LAMBERT: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give us some approximate information on this matter, as the Government propose, I understand, or are considering the introduction of a Measure for the extension of insurance to agricultural workers? Cannot we have approximate information as to the amount of unemployment?
  Mr. BUXTON: I shall be able to give general information. If my right hon. Friend will put down a question as to that, I shall do my best to answer it, but I have not exact information.
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: By "general information," does the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the distinction between two such areas in the West Country as Devon and Cornwall, where there may be very little unemployment, and Wiltshire and Dorset, where there may be a good deal? In that case, what use will general information be?
  Mr. BUXTON: The reporters can only report on their different regions, but they are concerned with the supply of labour and not definitely with the extent to which unemployment may exist.
  Mr. BROWN: Does the term "general information" apply generally over the whole country, or does the right hon. Gentleman mean to give the information for county by county, which would be the only valuable way?
  Mr. BUXTON: Perhaps the hon. Member will put a question down on that subject.
  Mr. GUINNESS: Will the right hon. Gentleman get statistics to show whether this unemployment is on the increase?
  Mr. BUXTON: Yes, I shall do my best.

  COMMONS, METROPOLITAN DISTRICT.
  Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of commons and their total acreage within the Metropolitan Police District which are not subject to schemes of regulation?
  Mr. N. BUXTON: There are no available official statistics as to the exact number of commons and their exact total acreage within the Metropolitan district, but probably the total number is slightly over 100 and the total area approximately 9,000 acres. Of these, 31, comprising 4,171 acres, are subject to schemes of regulation under the Metropolitan Commons Acts; two, comprising 340 acres, are the subject of Orders imposing limitations and conditions as to the exercise of the rights of public access under Section 193 of the Law of Property Act, 1925; and a few have been placed under regulation by local Acts independently of the Ministry. The remaining commons, numbering over 60 and comprising about 2,700 acres, are not subject to any scheme of regulation.

  COMMON, GAYWOOD, NORFOLK (ENCLOSURE).
  Mr. EDEasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has yet given his decision on the application to enclose common land at Gaywood, Norfolk, for a refuse tip; and if he will require, in the event of assent to the application being contemplated, that at least an equivalent area of land shall be added to the common?
  Mr. N. BUXTON: The Freebridge Lynn Rural District Council, who made the application to which the hon. Member refers, have been informed that I am not prepared to give my consent to the proposed enclosure, unless at least an equal area of land is acquired and made available for a public recreation ground.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer tell us what the business will be for Thursday next?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): On Thursday, the business will be consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill, which we expect to receive from another place to-day; Second Reading of the Consolidated
Fund (No. 2) Bill; and Report stage of the Money Resolution for the Coal Mines Bill. If time permits, other Orders may be taken.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Report of Supply of the 21st and 23rd January be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. P. Snowden.]
The House divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 120.

Division No. 118.]

AYES.

[3.54 p.m.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Montague, Frederick

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Groves, Thomas E.

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Grundy, Thomas W.

Morley, Ralph

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Alpass, J. H.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Ammon, Charles George

Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth. C.)

Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

Angell, Norman

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Arnott, John

Hardie, George D.

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Muff, G.

Ayles, Walter

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Nathan, Major H. L.

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Haycock, A. W.

Naylor, T. E.

Barnes, Alfred John

Hayes, John Henry

Noel Baker, P. J.

Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

Palmer, E. T.

Benson, G.

Herriotts, J.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Blindell, James

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Perry, S. F.

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Bowen, J. W.

Hoffman, P. C.

Phillips, Dr. Marion

Broad, Francis Alfred

Hore-Belisha, Leslie.

Picton-Turbervill, Edith

Bromley, J.

Hunter, Dr. Joseph

Pole, Major D. G.

Brothers, M.

Isaacs, George

Potts, John S.

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Jones, F. Llewellyn. (Flint)

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Rathbone, Eleanor

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Raynes, W. R.

Buchanan, G.

Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Kelly, W. T.

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

Kennedy, Thomas

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

Kinley, J.

Romeril, H. G.

Cameron, A. G.

Knight, Holford

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

Rothschild, J. de

Charleton, H. C.

Lang, Gordon

Rowson, Guy

Chater, Daniel

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Church, Major A. G.

Lathan, G.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Cluse, W. S.

Law, A. (Rosendale)

Sanders, W. S.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lawrence, Susan

Sandham, E.

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Lawson, John James

Sawyer, G. F.

Compton, Joseph

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Scrymgeour, E.

Cove, William G.

Leach, W.

Scurr, John

Daggar, George

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Dallas, George

Lees, J.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Dalton, Hugh

Lloyd, C. Ellis

Sherwood, G. H.

Dickson, T.

Logan, David Gilbert

Shield, George William

Duncan, Charles

Longbottom, A. W.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Ede, James Chuter

Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

Shillaker, J. F.

Edmunds, J. E.

Lowth, Thomas

Shinwell, E

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Lunn, William

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Egan, W. H.

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Simmons, C. J.

Elmley, Viscount

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)

McElwee, A.

Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

Forgan, Dr. Robert

McEntee, V. L.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

MacLaren, Andrew

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

McShane, John James

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Snell, Harry

Gill, T. H.

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Gillett, George M.

March, S.

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

Glassey, A. E.

Markham, S. F.

Sorensen, R.

Gossling, A. G.

Mathers, George

Stamford, Thomas W.

Gould, F.

Matters, L. W.

Stephen, Campbell

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Messer, Fred

Strauss, G. R.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Middleton, G.

Sullivan, J.

Gray, Milner

Millar, J. D.

Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Mills, J. E.

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Walker, J.

Wilson, J. (Oldham)

Thurtle, Ernest

Wallace, H. W.

Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

Tinker, John Joseph

Wallhead, Richard C.

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

Tout, W. J.

Watkins, F. C.

Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

Townend, A. E.

West, F. R.

Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Turner, B.

Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Vaughan, D. J.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

Viant, S. P.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Paling.

NOES.

Albery, Irving James

Ferguson, Sir John

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

Fermoy, Lord

Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Peaks, Capt. Osbert

Astor, Viscountess

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Penny, Sir George

Atkinson, C.

Gower, Sir Robert

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Power, Sir John Cecil

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)

Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Beaumont, M. W.

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Hammersley, S. S.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Berry, Sir George

Hanbury, C.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Haslam, Henry C.

Savery, S. S.

Bracken, B.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Skelton, A. N.

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Butler, R. A.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hurd, Percy A.

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Iveagh, Countess of

Todd, Capt. A. J.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Colville, Major D. J.

King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Dalkeith, Earl of

Llewellin, Major J. J.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Davies, Dr Vernon

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Long, Major Eric

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Dawson, Sir Philip

Lymington, Viscount

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Macquisten, F. A.

Womersley, W. J.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Marjoribanks, E. C.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Major Sir George Hennessy and

Captain Margesson.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS,
That they have agreed to,—
Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill, with Amendments.

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (No. 2) BILL,
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]
POOR LAW BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday, 3rd February, and to be printed. [Bill 113.]

STATUTE OF THE PERMANENT COURT OF INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE (ARTICLE 36).
The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Arthur Henderson): I beg to move:
"That this House approves the ratification of the Declaration under Article 36 of the Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, signed at Geneva in respect of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the 19th day of September, 1929."
4.0 p.m.
The Motion on the Order Paper invites the House to give authority to His Majesty's Government to ratify and to bring into binding effect its signature to the Optional Clause attached to the Statute of the Permant Court of International Justice at The Hague. In support of that Motion, I will endeavour, as briefly as I possibly can, to state the general standpoint from which the Government have considered this question of the Optional Clause. I will begin by saying a word as to the practical effects of our accepting the Clause, although I should say that, in view of the White Paper which has been available since 12th December, no elaborate explanation of the effect of accepting that Clause should be necessary. Ratification means that we pledge our word that in any dispute with any foreign Power which has also-signed the Clause, we will accept the jurisdiction and the verdict of the Permanent Court of International Justice, provided always that the dispute is one which can be settled by that Court on the basis of the rules of law. Moreover, it means that in respect of what are called justiciable disputes, we shall be no longer free to refuse to go to the Permanent Court if another party to the dispute which has also signed the Optional Clause desires to obtain a legal verdict.
This is an important development in various ways of the old treaties of arbitration which before the War this country used to put into use. These old treaties were agreements between Governments based upon the principle that disputes suitable for arbitration should be settled by that means, but experience showed that they had certain important limitations. It will be in the
654
recollection of the House, I have no doubt, that they all contain that old reservation relating to honour and vital interests. That reservation was subject to the interpretation by each Government to suit itself, and the result was that, in any given case, a Government could refuse recourse to arbitration. There were two other weaknesses in these old pre-War treaties of arbitration to which I must briefly refer. In the first place, even when a Government desired to propose an arbitration, the arbitration could not begin until some special agreement had been made as to the way in which that particular arbitration should be carried out. In the second place, even after this agreement had been reached the case could not be heard—and this is very important—until a special arbitration tribunal had been set up. These, I repeat, were serious defects in the pre-War arbitration system.
The Optional Clause removes all these defects. It confers jurisdiction upon the Permanent Court—jurisdiction in all international disputes which can be settled by means of law, and it thus applies to international disputes a principle which has been universally accepted by every civilised State for the settlement of legal disputes between its citizens. Under its terms, no State can refuse to allow a dispute to go before the Court. No special agreement for the submission of the dispute will be required. No State by dishonest quibbling can avoid the obligation it is under to go to the Court. We regard these changes as conferring great advantages upon the British Government. Why do I say so? I say so because the British Government so often have desired, and in the future, we believe, will always desire, to arbitrate in their international disputes. But before I deal with these advantages, I should like to say a few words about the general position of the Government in this matter. I particularly ask the House to note that we regard the acceptance by the country of the Optional Clause as the logical consequence of our commitments under the Paris Pact of Peace a year ago. The Paris Pact, as Members are doubtless aware, as far as its substantive terms are concerned, consists of but two short Articles—Article 1 and Article 2. The first of these two Articles contains the solemn declaration of the high contracting parties:

655
"The high contracting parties solemnly declare in the names of their respective peoples that they condemn recourse to war for the solution of international controversies, and denounce it as an instrument of national policy in their relations with one another."
It may safely be said, I think, that it is upon this first Article that the attention of the world has been chiefly concentrated, and I would not say one word which would imply that the renunciation of private war is less important than it has been almost universally—certainly generally—thought. I, myself, regard this first Article and its solemn undertaking as being of paramount importance, but what I now desire to emphasise is that the second Article of the Pact of Paris is also of the most far-reaching importance. May I remind the House that by the second Article:
"The high contracting parties agree that the settlement or submission of all disputes or conflicts, of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them, shall never be sought except by pacific means."
This is an obligation of an importance certainly no less than that contained in Article 1. It is, indeed, the very essence, in my judgment, of the Pact of Paris, that the instrument of war shall never be used for settlement of international disputes. It will be in the recollection of the House that this Article of the Pact of Paris of which I am speaking does not contain any specific machinery by which its solemn undertakings are to be fulfilled. That is an item of very considerable importance, but, though neither of these articles nor the Pact as a whole contain any machinery, I think that the implications of the commitments of the Pact of Paris appear to lay upon all the Governments of the signatory Powers the clearest moral duty to develop by all means in their power the machinery and the methods necessary to a complete discharge of all the obligations contained in the commitments which have been accepted. If that is to be done, we must provide the means by which we can settle our disputes; we must provide the necessary machinery. Having ruled out war as a method of settlement, surely it is only common sense that we do everything in our power to put something in its place. We must have the necessary machinery.
656
For our own part—and I want to make this clear—we consider that loyal adherence to the spirit and purpose of this Optional Clause is an important element—indeed a most important element—of the necessary machinery, so far as all the members of the League of Nations are concerned. I will carry this argument even further. Not only is acceptance of the Optional Clause a logical consequence of the Pact of Paris, so far as this country is concerned, inasmuch as this country is a member of the League, but in our view it is only by such measures as this, by the general acceptance of such obligations to accept impartial arbitration, that the members of the League can give real life and value to this Pact, to which the previous Government set their signature. If the Pact of Paris is to be of real value, if it is not to become a scrap of paper, its words must be followed and confirmed by actual deeds. Its results must show themselves in the day to day policy of the Governments which accepted the absolute undertaking not to use war to settle their disputes. If Governments go on exactly as before, if there is no serious extension of the policy of arbitration and no international agreement with regard to the important question of disarmament, if general policy is directed with a view to preparing for war and the strategy of war, it must inevitably follow that the Pact of Paris cannot possibly achieve the results which its promoters hoped and expected.
There is another point to which I should like to ask the attention of the House. It may become, unless we are on our guard, a scrap of paper; both peoples and governments may come to think that those who signed the Pact of Paris did not expect that its pledges would in fact be honoured. They will lose faith in its moral power to restrain a government that might contemplate the aggression of war, and as they lose faith, the world will lose the guarantee which the Pact should give it against the catastrophe of another great war. It is in part, therefore, because we believe that we shall be strengthening the power of the Pact of Paris, that we have desired, as one of the first acts in our foreign policy, to accept and ratify the Optional Clause.

657
That leads me to the next point to which I would ask the House to give its attention. The Government are of opinion that a general acceptance of the Optional Clause, by all the members of the League of Nations at any rate, would be a most powerful factor, directly as well as indirectly, in the increase in international security against war. Let me explain what I mean. When the Government use the word "security," as the Prime Minister has often explained, they do not mean that competitive security of pre-war days; nor do they mean that form of militarist security which, as the result of an increase of fighting strength, induced one nation to imagine that it was safe because, by a few battalions, it was stronger than its neighbours. We mean that real security by which all nations are safe because they are delivered from the fear of another outbreak of war. We are convinced that the creation of this true national security is inseparably associated with the establishment of a strong and comprehensive system of arbitration. This opinion is shared not only by the Government, but by high authorities in this country and throughout the world. Need I remind the House that, at the Assembly of the League of Nations in 1927, a resolution was adopted, for which the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Foreign Minister was in a measure responsible. That resolution speaks of the guarantees of arbitration and security necessary to enable nations to fix the level of their armaments at the lowest possible figure in an international disarmament agreement. The resolution goes on to say:
"The Assembly considers that those guarantees should be sought in action by the League of Nations with a view to promoting, generalising and co-ordinating special or collective agreements of arbitration."
Nor is that all, for the following year, Lord Cushendun, then representing Great Britain at Geneva in the Arbitration and Security Committee of the League, accepted a resolution urging the Governments to accept the Optional Clause, and, in doing so, used words which I should like to give to the House. Lord Cushendun said:
"What we are doing by this resolution is to reiterate in strong terms the opinion that has been expressed before, that as many States as possible should sign the Optional Clause if they find it in their power to do so, for they will to that extent be contributing towards the security of the world."
658
I am glad to be able to quote the strong words of these two representatives of our predecessors at the League of Nations in support of the idea which I am now advancing. The existence of armaments in the world on such a scale as they are at present is surely the strongest evidence that a feeling of insecurity continues. My experience at the 1924 and 1929 Assemblies, and at international congresses and conferences, enables me to say that from the signing of the Armistice no problem has exercised the minds of statesmen, not only in Europe, but in all civilised countries in the world, more than this problem of their security.
Therefore, the chief problem that we have to face in our foreign policy is how best to remove this disturbed feeling, this feeling of unrest and of insecurity. We can only do so by the systematic organisation of world peace. One of the first steps in this organisation is to substitute a new kind of security for the old kind that rested on the armed power of individual nations or groups of nations. That new kind of security will result from the diminution of the risk of war by the creation of new methods of dealing with differences which continue to arise between nations. It is in this spirit that the Government of the day approached this question of the Optional Clause. We are convinced that the acceptance of the Clause will prove a powerful means of reducing the risk of war, and it is for this reason that we regard the question of its ratification as urgent and important.
I now come to the question of the reservations which we made when we signed the Clause. This is possibly one of the most important points to which I have to draw the attention of the House. An examination of the formula which the Government signed showed that we followed the usual practice in making our acceptance subject to a time limit, and by applying the principle of reciprocity; but Members who have done me the honour of reading the White Paper will see that the time limit does not definitely end; it continues unless we give notice to the contrary. That is an important improvement, so far as the time limit is concerned. Moreover, the declaration accepting the jurisdiction of the Court covers only those disputes which may arise in the future. Past

659
disputes and disputes relating to past events continue to be submitted to the Court under special agreements concluded in each case—even if they have to go to the Court at all. I want to say clearly and definitely that three classes of disputes are excluded from the declaration of acceptance: First, disputes with other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations; second, disputes about matters which fall within what is called the domestic jurisdiction of a State.
Commander BELLAIRS: Are we the judges of that?
Mr. HENDERSON: I hope that the hon. and gallant Member will allow me to deal with these matters in my own way; I will deal with the whole thing if the hon. and gallant Member will have patience. The third class are disputes for the submission of which to some other method of peaceful settlement provision is made by existing or future agreements. Let me explain, as briefly as I can, why we have taken up this position with regard to these three classes of disputes. With regard to the last of the three, need I remind the House that commercial treaties and conventions dealing with special subjects, such as reparations, or with technical matters, such as copyright, very often contain a provision setting up special tribunals to deal with disputes which may arise as to the meaning or the application of their terms? There is, therefore, no reason why they should go to the Permanent Court. Then, with regard to disputes with other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, these are excluded, and I think very rightly so, because the members of that Commonwealth, though international units individually in the fullest sense of the term, are united to one another and to this country by their common allegiance to the Crown. Disputes between them should, therefore, in our view, be dealt with by some other means of settlement, and for this provision has been made by the exclusion to which I have referred already.
As to the second class, disputes which fall within the domestic jurisdiction of a State, on certain matters international law recognises that the authority of the
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State is supreme. Once this is determined, there is no scope for the exercise in such cases of the jurisdiction of an international court. Then the formula contains another proviso to which the Government attach very great importance-indeed, and that is the proviso which enables disputes to be referred to the Council of the League of Nations before-they are dealt with by the Permanent Court of International Justice. This is to cover disputes which are really political in their character though juridical in appearance. Disputes of this kind can be dealt with more satisfactorily by the Council, because it is free to exercise its conciliatory powers with a view to-arriving at any friendly settlement of the dispute to which the parties themselves-may agree. It would cease to operate-from the moment when the Council decided it was better that the question: should be submitted to the Court, and therefore declined to keep the dispute under its consideration. Within these limits the proviso would apply to any justiciable dispute, whatever its origin. It would extend, for instance, as I shall point out in a moment, to disputes arising out of cases where it had been necessary for the United Kingdom to take action at the instance of the Council of the League of Nations itself in pursuance of our obligations as a member of the League of Nations.
Before I come to that, let me assure the House that although this proviso is wide we do not by its terms—and this is very important—withdraw any legal dispute from the ultimate jurisdiction of the Court. We only suspend that jurisdiction for a limited period of time, for the advantageous reason which I have just-stated, namely, that a better settlement may be obtained by its being handled under the conciliatory spirit of the Council of the League itself. Should the discussion in the Council fail, the dispute would then go back to the Permanent Court and would be dealt with by the Court. This gives a measure of elasticity in the operation of the Optional Clause without in any way diminishing the value of its effect. But none of these reservations to which I have referred diminishes in any way the value of the effect of the Optional Clause. In all our legal disputes with other nations,

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without exception, the impartial justice of the Permanent Court will remain the final arbiter.
But may I return to a topic on which I briefly touched a moment ago and say something on the Amendment to my Motion of which notice has been given and which, I understand, is to be moved by the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Foreign Secretary? That Amendment speaks of the additional reservation relating to laws of war at sea laid down by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at Geneva on September 22, 1924, as being absolutely necessary to safeguard the freedom of action of the British Navy. In view of the importance which is apparently attached to the remarks which I made at Geneva in 1924, I will ask the House to allow me to quote the relevant passages of my speech on that occasion. I must apologise for the quotation being a rather long one, but I am afraid that right hon. Gentlemen opposite may have been misled by perhaps taking something from a press report rather than from the verbatim report of my speech. I have here the verbatim report, or at any rate this quotation is taken from the verbatim report:
"I now come to the question of the reservations which the British Government will feel themselves obliged to make in accepting the obligatory jurisdiction of the Permanent Court and this new procedure of compulsory arbitration. These reservations relate to disputes arising out of warlike operations in which the British Empire may in the future be involved. Let there be no misunderstanding. In the view of the British Government, it is not conceivable that the British Empire should be at war against the Covenant or against the stipulations of this new Protocol."
That is, the Protocol of 1924, which was destroyed by our successors.
"We therefore only envisage a case in which we are engaged in warlike operations on behalf of the Covenant and with the approval of the Council or the Assembly of the League. We are sure that in such a case as this it would be necessary and desirable in the general interest as well as in the particular interests of Great Britain that the British Fleet should be able to operate with the freedom that may be required to secure the rapid success and termination of the sanction. We propose, therefore, when we accept the obligatory jurisdiction of the Court, to make a reservation to this effect, that disputes arising out of warlike operations undertaken by the British Empire in support of the League shall not be referred to the Permanent Court for settlement. It will be observed
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that a similar reservation is in Article 5 of the draft which is laid before the Committee."
I was then speaking in the Committee.
"These reservations do not appear to us in any way to limit the value of what we are doing to-day. No one desires that the Permanent Court should become a body for controlling military operations. Its purpose, and the purpose of these new arbitration arrangements we hope to set up, is to prevent war altogether by securing the peaceful settlement of disputes. We believe, therefore, that in safeguarding the liberty of action of the British Fleet, which above all things it is necessary for us to safeguard, we are not acting contrary to the general interests of the nations of the world."
HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Mr. HENDERSON: I welcome the applause from hon. Members opposite. I think the House will see that it is somewhat misleading to describe this reservation, which I was then explaining, as
"being absolutely necessary to safeguard the freedom of action of the British Navy."
—the words of the Amendment. It is plain that the operations of the British Fleet to which I was referring were exclusively—I want to emphasise this point—exclusively operations in the case where we were engaged in warlike operations on behalf of the Covenant and with the approval of the Council or the Assembly of the League of Nations. It was in those circumstances only that I said it was necessary in the general interest as well as in the interests of Britain that the British Fleet should be able to operate with the freedom which may be required to secure the rapid and successful termination of the sanction. Neither in 1924 nor, certainly, in 1929 or 1930, was I ever dreaming, after we had become a member of the League of Nations and had accepted all the obligations of the Covenant of the League of Nations, that we were going to claim that we would have that old-time freedom of pre-War days before there was any League of Nations of which we had become a member. If that was true in 1924, what shall I say of the position now, in these days of the Paris Pact of Peace to which our predecessors laid their hand?
The position as I envisaged it then, and as I envisage it to-day—for since the signature of the Peace Pact it is even more true than in 1924—is that in the view of the British Government, certainly of this Government, it is not conceivable

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that the British Empire should be at war against the Covenant or against the stipulations contained in Articles 1 and 2 of the Paris Pact of Peace. Therefore, as in 1924, we only envisage the case in which we are engaged in warlike operations on behalf of the Covenant and, I repeat, with the approval of the Council or the Assembly of the League. This being so, we do not contemplate the possibility of any serious differences of opinion arising between us and other members of the League of Nations, differences, at any rate, arising out of action which the British Fleet may be called upon to take under the circumstances which I have described. The League would obviously be as anxious as we ourselves that the action of our Fleet in such circumstances and with the League in control should produce its maximum effect. But if, in spite of this, difficulties of this nature should arise, I am of the opinion now, as I was in 1924, that no one desires to see the Permanent Court become a body for controlling military operations. Such disputes arising out of warlike operations undertaken by the British Empire in support of the League would never, in my opinion, be suitable for determination by the Permanent Court of International Justice, but they would, in my opinion, be very suitable for adjustment by the Council of the League, and for that we have made ample provision in one of the reservations which is contained in the formula which I had the honour to sign. In 1924 we confined ourselves to proposing that such disputes should not be referred to the Court, but to-day, and I want the House to notice this, we go further, and we propose to produce the same result by means of the reservation with which I am now dealing and under which it will be open to us to refer such disputes to the Council of the League, leaving them to be dealt with by the Council rather than being sent to the Court of International Justice. There is, therefore, in my opinion, no difference in substance between our position in 1924 and our position to-day. The only difference is that, whereas we did not then propose to provide any means of determining such disputes as I am dealing with, we have now such means provided in one of the reservations by them being sent to the Council of the League
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instead of to the Court of International Justice. For the reasons which I have given already, that Council is, in our opinion, most suited to deal with naval action which we might have taken with the approval of the Council or with the approval of the Assembly.
There is another point to which I should like the House to give very brief attention, and that is the question of the Dominions. Not only did His Majesty's Government in this country sign the Optional Clause at Geneva last September, but I am very happy to say that all His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions, and the Government of India, likewise signed the Clause, and may I also say that all the Dominions and India signed on exactly the same formula as we signed on behalf of the United Kingdom.
Colonel HOWARD-BURY: What about the Irish Free State?
Mr. HENDERSON: I hope hon. Members will be patient. There was only one exception, and that was the Irish Free State, but they signed without any reservations. Not for the first time, they went one better than the rest of us; but they did sign, and they signed two or three days before the whole of the Dominions and India signed on exactly the same formula. The effect of that is that the British Commonwealth of Nations is absolutely united in the decision to take this step forward in the acceptance of arbitration and the substitution of the rule of law for the rule of war. Except in the case of the Irish Free State, His Majesty's Government and all the other countries I have mentioned signed the Declaration in identical terms. I hope I have answered satisfactorily the interruption of the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury).
Surely the official Opposition does not desire to break up the spirit of unity which prevailed in the entire British Empire Delegations at Geneva last September, and to repudiate the common policy on which general agreement was reached? The movement, for the signature of the Optional Clause had made considerable progress before the Governments took their joint decision. In July last year 19 States had signed and ratified, but the events of last September,

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and the force of the British example gave a remarkable impetus to this movement. In addition to the seven Governments of the British Commonwealth, seven others, including France and Italy, signed during last September. The position at present is that about 20 States have both signed and ratified, and 20 others have signed but have not yet ratified, although in a number of cases ratification is expected at a very early date, and in my judgment that date will be expedited if we come to a right decision to-day. Only 14 States, members of the League, have not yet signed the Optional Clause, but there is every reason to hope that this number will be still further reduced. I have no doubt that the example of the British Government will stimulate action by other Governments, and that in consequence further general progress will be made.
May I say a few words with regard to the advantages that we believe will accrue to this country and the Empire from the course which we are asking the House to follow this evening. (1) We secure the advantages of arbitration by a method that is rapid and inexpensive; (2) we shall get rid in our disputes of the factitious elements which often inflame the passions of nations, but which so often have nothing to do with the real nature of the case involved; (3) it gives us the right to go to a Court with great prestige and experience whenever we feel that our legal rights are being disregarded. These are advantages which this House should not neglect or undervalue.
Finally, I desire to say a word with regard to the ratification of the Optional Clause, because we regard it as a most important and far-reaching step in relation to our foreign policy as a whole. We consider the production of a practical, reasonable and comprehensive plan of disposing of international disputes by peaceful means as one of the most urgent tasks of present day statesmanship. Too long has the futile instrument of war as the means of settling disputes been regarded as an inevitable and inescapable condition of international life. Moreover, I think there is general agreement that too long has an immense proportion of the wealth won by human efforts and the best brains of each generation been devoted to the sole purpose of
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preparing the means of making war. The foreign policy of the Government is therefore influenced by the conception that world peace cannot be guaranteed by competitive armaments. Modern war must become increasingly brutal and cannot be localised, and civilisation can only be delivered from such warfare by the application to the international problem of the spirit of conciliation, cooperation, and justice. In other words, the fabric of peace must be built upon an enduring and a surer foundation.
We must do everything in our power to encourage the people everywhere to regard war as a crime. We must do all in our power to influence the people to place reliance, not on force, but on the moral solidarity of nations and upon the expanding authority of international law. My final word is that we were influenced by such important considerations when we signed the Optional Clause last September. We now ask for the necessary authority to ratify and bring our signature into binding effect. In asking for this authority, is it going too far to suggest that the House, by a unanimous decision, should strengthen the lead which His Majesty's Government have given and are endeavouring to give to the other Nations of the world.
Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words:
"subject to the additional reservation relating to the Laws of War on Sea laid down by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at Geneva on 22nd September, 1924, as being absolutely necessary to safeguard the freedom of action of the British Navy."
In every quarter of the House we are grateful to the Foreign Secretary for the explanations which he has given of the policy of His Majesty's Government in recommending to this House for acceptance the signature of the Optional Clause. No one who has followed closely what the right hon. Gentleman has said will doubt that the step which His Majesty's Government propose to take is one of immense consequence and very far reaching effect. That is indeed the claim which the right hon. Gentleman himself rightly makes for it and which I should be the last to dispute. I wish that, after listening to him, I felt that I could respond at once in the affirmative to the appeal with which he closed, that, after listening to his explanation, we on this side of

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the House should allow this motion to receive a unanimous acceptance. But, if the right hon. Gentleman has contributed a great deal that was not in the White Paper to the elucidation of the mind and policy of the Government, he has, I am afraid, only confirmed in my mind the impression that the action which the Government are taking is not well suited to attain the purpose which they have declared they have in view.
5.0 p.m.
Do not let us exaggerate the extent of the difference between the two sides. Do not let us suppose that one side of the House or one section of public opinion in this country favours arbitration and another section does not, or that one section favours reservations and another does not. Do not let us suppose that any section in this House or in this country contemplates that we shall in future engage in any war, the entry into which would be a breach of the obligations that we have undertaken either under the Covenant or under the Pact of Paris. If I contemplate war as a possibility, I am doing only what the President of the United States himself has done in the message that he has published in connection with naval discussions at the meeting of the Naval Conference. We have not yet reached such a stage of world opinion or of international society that any one of us can say, or that any one nation can say, that we are in a position to depend alone on the good faith of the other for our own security, and His Majesty's Government will not go to war except in conditions which are clearly permissible under both the Covenant of the League and the Pact of Paris. I take that as axiomatic to the conduct of our foreign policy. I may take it as equally axiomatic that there is an equally universal desire to apply arbitration as widely as possible in all appropriate cases. The Government themselves admit that certain cases are not appropriate for arbitration. The Government themselves admit that certain reservations are necessary. The difference between us, therefore, is not whether we should go to arbitration at all, not whether we should go to arbitration in every case, but as to the exact limits within which we can safely undertake in advance to submit automatically to arbitration if a dispute
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arises. It is a question, not of wide principle—I wish it were; it would be so much simpler—it is a question, not of kind, but of degree, which divides the House, and the right hon. Gentleman himself is not able to formulate any general principle which saves him from the necessity of qualifying his assent to arbitration and reserving certain questions from the jurisdiction of the Court.
What is it exactly that we accomplish if we sign the Optional Clause subject to these reservations? In the past, except where there have been special treaty provisions of a wider character, such as commercial treaties, it has been for each Power to judge whether, when a dispute arose, that dispute was of such a nature that it could be properly referred to arbitration; and it has been possible for them to make their assent to arbitration conditional on the terms of reference to the arbitrator being agreeable, rather than on the acceptance of certain conditions in advance. The change which is made by the present proposal is that henceforth, in the absence of agreement, all questions within its scope must go to arbitration. If the two parties are not at one as to what is the matter in dispute, it is the Court which will decide, and not the parties, and no condition can be imposed prior to that.
The right hon. Gentleman's case, as he put it to the House, is that, unless we do this, our signature to the Peace Pact is an empty thing; that, unless we follow it up, not merely by passively obeying its provisions, but by actively supplementing it by a signature of this kind, the Peace Pact is valueless. Does it not occur to him, or to hon. Gentlemen opposite, that it is singular that, while the right hon. Gentleman again and again repeated that this was true in regard to us, each time he was obliged to put in words which silently excluded the thought of any such obligation resting upon the United States of America? Yet it is the United States of America who are the authors of the Peace Pact of Paris. Why is it that their signature is invaluable without their signature to the Optional Clause, while our signature is insincere and of no value? If that part of the right hon. Gentleman's argument—and it is a very large part—has any meaning at all, it means that the signature of the United States to the Parts Pact is value-

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less unless they proceed to implement it by undertaking obligations which it is perfectly clear they do not intend to undertake.
Let me examine now for a moment the reservations which the right hon. Gentleman has made. In the first place, and he laid great stress upon this, he has excluded all past disputes. Why has he thought it necessary to exclude all past disputes? There are controversies, there are differences of opinion, some more acute and some less, which have been in existence for a long time between ourselves and other nations—some of them arising out of the War, and some not arising out of the War at all. Why, if we can safely sign for the future, subject only to the reservations which the right hon. Gentleman has put in, cannot we equally safely sign for the past, and settle once and for all in the same way these outstanding cases? The right hon. Gentleman is afraid to do that because that would produce the presentation of bills immediately of a serious character, which he thinks he might have to meet; but he is willing to take for the future and for future generations the liabilities which he cannot accept if they are to be borne on his own shoulders and those of his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I see the learned Attorney-General in his place taking notes, and I rather hope that he is going to speak in the course of the Debate. If so, I should like him, if he will be good enough to do so, to tell us what is the exact scope and effect of the reservation of
"disputes arising after ratification with regard to situations or facts subsequent to the ratification."
I could give a practical illustration of the point which I want to put, drawn from existing circumstances, but, for reasons which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I would prefer, if the House will allow me, to take a hypothetical case drawn from the past—a case which has been settled and which cannot re-present itself. Suppose that the Venezuelan Boundary question were still unsettled. I may, perhaps, remind the House that the Venezuelan Boundary question concerned the ownership of territory which was in dispute between a British Colony and Venezuela, a part of which, at any rate, had been in our undisturbed possession and occupation for very nearly a century. Suppose
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that the right to that territory had not been settled. Could Venezuela, after we had signed, if she were a member of the League and a co-signatory of the Optional Clause, insist upon the question of the ownership of that land going to the Court at The Hague, or would she be debarred from taking that question to The Hague by the reservation as regards limitation to disputes arising after ratification with regard to situations or facts subsequent to the ratification? A dispute may be of old standing; it may have arisen beforehand; but the situation may be either a continuing or a recurrent situation, and I think it is of some importance that we should know as regards such a case, because there are others. I purposely avoided taking it in terms of present conditions, but there are others in an exactly similar position which certainly no British Government would have taken to arbitration without conditions before they signed, and I should like to know whether we are bound to take them to arbitration if we sign this Clause subject only to the reservations which the Government have made.
Then there is a second question which arises on the reservation of disputes which fall exclusively within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. I understand that we have by our signature bound the British Empire outside the Dominions and India. The Governments of the Dominions and India act for themselves, but the signature attached on behalf of His Majesty by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, I understand, would bind and does bind the rest of the British Empire. The purpose of this reservation is to reserve from the action of the Optional Clause a dispute which is within the municipal jurisdiction of the signing member. Is the reservation couched in such terms that it would be effective for other parts of the British Empire than the United Kingdom itself? The right hon. Gentleman talked of its reserving anything within the jurisdiction of the State, but those are not the words that he has used. The words that he has used are "within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom." Suppose that a dispute arose in Malta, or arose out of Maltese legislation, with another country. Suppose that the Maltese legislation was a matter within the

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jurisdiction of the State. In the case of Malta our jurisdiction is not exclusive; we share it with the Malta Assembly, or partly so. Would a dispute of that kind—and instances can be multiplied throughout the Empire—be safeguarded, as it is, I take it, the intention of the Government that it should be safeguarded, by a reservation which speaks only of a matter within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United Kingdom itself?
Disputes with the Dominions, disputes arising among the members of the Empire, we are all agreed, are matters which we ought to settle among ourselves without foreign interference, and the only-thing that I have to say about that is to express my regret that the right hon. Gentleman was unable to persuade—I do not blame him for it; it is not his fault—the Irish Free State to come into line on this matter with the rest of the Empire. That leads me to interject an answer to an observation which the right hon. Gentleman made in the course of his speech. He asked, did we really desire to break up the unity achieved within the Empire, to influence the British Government to sign on different terms from the other Dominions and India? That is not my desire. My desire is to convince His Majesty's Government, and to persuade them to convince the Dominions—and I think they will find no great difficulty in persuading them if they once persuade themselves—that some further reservation is necessary.
More important in many ways, and obviously so considered by the right hon. Gentleman himself, is the reservation that we made in the first instance as to taking matters which are partly political and partly juridical to the Council in preference to the Court. The right hon. Gentleman's language on that Clause to-day varied from his language in the White Paper. It was, I think, more accurate to-day than it is in the White Paper. His Majesty's Government recognise and insist, as the right hon. Gentleman has asseverated with great emphasis, that there are questions which are not suitable for the Court—questions which are juridical, which no one can deny are juridical, but which have political origins or political consequences which
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make them unsuitable for the Court. The right hon. Gentleman says that he has provided for that by saying that these questions may be referred to the Council; but to-day he corrects his White Paper by adding, "Observe, that does not exclude them." It does not withdraw these questions from the jurisdiction of the Court. It only suspends the jurisdiction of the Court. If that is so, and it obviously is so, it is a very insufficient defence against those political questions which the right hon. Gentle man says the Court ought not to judge, which he does not wish the Court to judge, which he thinks it would be unfortunate and impolitic to send to the Court, being taken to the Court. You go to the Council. I have no doubt the Council would lend its good offices. If they settled, with the assent of both parties, in the course of a year, well and good, but, if at the end of the year the matter has not already been settled by the consent of both parties with the assistance of the Council, under the helpful guidance of the Council, it is not, as the right hon. Gentleman said in the White Paper, and has said to-day, the Council which will decide whether they remain seized of the matter or not. It is a single member of the Council who can withdraw the matter from the Council and send it directly to the Court if he desires that the Council should no longer be occupied with it.
The right hon. Gentleman talked throughout as if the Council must be unanimous. But the provision he has made enables any single member of the Council to stop proceedings at the end of a year and force us directly to the Court. The right hon. Gentleman asumes that the Council must always sympathise with us in any such dispute as we might be likely to enter upon. I hope that they always will. I think it is probable that our case would be one which would approve itself to mankind at large and to the Council in general, but it would be surely rash to assume that we could count on never having a dissentient voice in the Council in matters of this gravity. Take questions of belligerent rights. A. has a grievance against us, or thinks she has. She, perhaps, under the Optional Clause, could have the question resolved by the Hague. The right hon. Gentleman replies, as he said to-day, that measures of war are never

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suitable for determination by the Court at the Hague, that the Council is the organ of conciliation most suited to deal with such action. I entirely agree with him. But what happens? He takes the matter before the Council. A., being the complainant, cannot vote, or her vote is disregarded, as ours would be, we being the defendant. But what if B. also has the same interest as A., but has not made a complaint? B. may have the same desire as A. to go directly to the Hague and to avoid a settlement—not merely to go to the Hague, because she prefers a judicial determination by that Court, but because she fears and wishes to avoid a decision by the Council, which takes account of all those political considerations to which the right hon. Gentleman rightly attaches such importance. A.'s vote does not count and our vote does not count. B., which has the same interest as A., an interest contrary to our interest, can bring the Council's proceedings to an end and force the matter to the Hague in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's declaration that it is one unsuitable for determination by the Permanent Court and one which he would never desire to see them decide.
The right hon. Gentleman was at pains to show why he had omitted the reservation which he thought it necessary to make in 1924. What does it all come to? There is only one thing changed in the situation. It is that, in addition to the Covenant, we and a great many other Powers, not all of them members of the League, have now signed the Paris Pact of Peace. The whole argument in the White Paper, and the whole argument of the right hon. Gentleman, is not really based on the Pact of Peace at all. It is based upon the obligations of the Covenant, and those obligations were in force in 1924 just as much as they are now. Why then, if this reservation was necessary in 1924, has it become unnecessary now? The White Paper is a little disingenuous on this subject, and I am not surprised that' when a summary of it was telegraphed to America it gave rise to misapprehension. The White Paper says:
"The effect of the Covenant and the Peace Pact taken together is to deprive nations which have signed them of the right to employ war as an instrument of national policy and forbid the State which has signed them to give aid or comfort to an offender."
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I omit a long passage. It concludes:
"In other words, as between members of the League there can be no neutral rights because there can be no neutrals."
My first observation is that the Peace Pact has not affected in any way the rights of those who have not signed the Covenant and has added nothing to the rights or duties of neutrals under the Covenant. A new suggestion to the contrary based on a misquotation of the White Paper created alarm in America. It shows how extremely sensitive are the United States lest it should be thought that by signing the Pact of Peace they have undertaken any obligation except to restrain their own policy within the limits of their signature. As to putting any pressure on anyone else, they have again and again disclaimed that there was any such binding obligation. Do not let me be misunderstood. I do not say that they would necessarily stand aloof and uninterested if war broke out. The conditions of the struggle might be such as to make an immense appeal to the generous sentiments and humanity of the United States, and at the time they might be prepared to take special action, but they are in advance—and they assert it again and again—Under no contractual obligation, and no moral obligation, to do anything more than observe their signatures. They are not obliged to bring any pressure, physical or moral, on any other State which breaks its obligations under the same Pact. Accordingly, all the rights of a neutral, like the United 'States, or another nation outside the League of Nations are wholly untouched and unaffected by the signature of the Peace Pact.
The right hon. Gentleman points out in the White Paper that the benefits of the Optional Clause can only be obtained by the Powers who have signed it, and he is at pains to explain that neither America nor Russia has signed it. But it would be easy for the United States, if they chose, to give a temporary signature, as we have done, though it might be much shorter, and to sign the Optional Clause, for the sole purpose of trying the questions which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to see excluded from The Hague before the Permanent Court of International Justice. But, quite apart from that improbable though not im-

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possible contingency, one of the things the right hon. Gentleman will have shortly to consider, if he has not already done so, is what are to be the terms of the new Arbitration Treaty between this country and the United States. His whole argument on this part of the subject is based upon the statement that only those Powers which have signed the Optional Clause obtain the advantage of our signature, and that these Powers are bound by the obligations of members of the League to one another. Is he, then, going to adduce that argument for reserving from arbitration under the Anglo-American treaty questions which he agrees to arbitrate with 47 other countries, members of the League of Nations, with any of the Scandinavian countries, with Cuba, with Abyssinia? How can he maintain the distinction which he wishes to draw between those who have taken the obligations of the Covenant of the League and those who have not, when the only effect of attempting to maintain that is that you differentiate dangerously in your arbitration obligations from that country which, alongside of us, has been foremost in practising arbitration, though, like us, up to the present she has always been unwilling to come under unconditional arbitration—to arbitrate in advance?
I doubt if the position is as represented by the right hon. Gentleman. "In any war among members of the League of Nations there can be no neutral." That is not the Covenant. That is in contradiction of the Covenant, which does not absolutely express the resolution of the Assembly in 1921, which carefully provided that the uni-lateral action of the defaulting State cannot create a state of war, but merely entitles them to resort to war. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that they went on to declare that it is the duty of each member of the League to decide for itself whether a breach of the Covenant has been committed or not. The right hon. Gentleman rests his case upon Article 16 of the Covenant, and upon the assumption that every nation which has signed the Covenant is bound to give, and will give, the widest interpretation to its obligations under Article 16; or, in the alternative, not having given that interpretation, it will be deprived of all rights and dismissed from the Court as a suitor
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whose own conduct is so bad that he cannot be heard when, asking for redress. I do not think that that is a safe assumption. I have always been reluctant to discuss Article 16. The truth is that it was drawn upon the assumption that the League would become practically universal, that, at any rate, it would include within a few years all the great Powers, and that in particular it would include the United States of America.
The fact that the United States has not signed and is not bound, and refuses in connection with the Covenant, and repeats the refusal in connection with the Pact, to come under any obligation as to its conduct towards a State which breaks either the Covenant, or the Pact, materially alters the position of Article 16. It makes Article 16, even if all the signatories were hound to live up to the expectations of the right hon. Gentleman, a much less effective measure than it would have been if the United States and Russia had also been included in it. It makes it quite obvious that certain powers may not be in a position to discharge the obligations in the sense that the right hon. Gentleman thinks they ought to do. Russia has not signed the Covenant of the League. What value exactly she attaches to the signature which she hastened to give to the Pact of Peace may perhaps be illustrated by recent happenings on the Russo-Manchurian frontier. Suppose we are involved in a dispute. It is a dispute in which we are justified, if not absolutely declared to be in the right within the terms of the Covenant, and it is within the terms of the Pact. We call upon every nation to take the action contemplated by Article 16 against the aggressor, who has made war upon us. Suppose that aggressor is a great Power and suppose the State on which we call is a little Power bordering on it, unable to defend itself against it, while we in the pressure of the great struggle are unable to offer defence to that little State. Suppose we then take the law into our own hands, as the right hon. Gentleman proposed, and that little State, aggrieved by our action, appealed to The Hague and succeeded in getting us there in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's intention that we should not be there, is it for one moment to be supposed that in such circumstances the Court at The

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Hague will, as the right hon. Gentleman argues, refuse to hear the little State, refuse to examine its grievances, and will declare, because it was unable to carry out all that we think are its obligations and duties under Article 16, that therefore it has no right of redress from us in respect of action which the Court at The Hague might be prepared to consider as a breach of international law.
I said at the beginning that I wished I could accept the right hon. Gentleman's reason for revising our opinion, but I confess that the reasons which he adduced as having led him to the conclusion; which he has reached as having led him to abandon the reservation which he thought necessary in 1924, only confirm me in the opinion that that reservation, and perhaps something more than that reservation, is necessary to our national safety. It is a common-place of our Debates—and I wish it were more a commonplace of international Debates—that the position of the British Empire in regard to naval strength is an exceptional one. The Prime Minister the other day remarked that the British Navy is Us. The right hon. Gentleman contemplates that in any war in which we may be engaged, it will be in the interests not only of ourselves but of the world at large, that the force of our Navy should be fully felt. It is not merely because it is our first line of defence, or in case of need, our first line of active offence that it is necessary to us. It is our great weapon for putting pressure upon anyone who attacks us. The House will remember the eloquent words in which Admiral Mahan describes the effect of the blockade carried out by the British Fleet in the years preceding Trafalgar, when he concludes:
"Those far-distant storm-beaten ships on which the eyes of the Grand Army never rested, yet stood between it and the domination of the world."
So it was again in the last great War. It is only a maritime nation which, out of its experience, knows how powerful is that weapon in a just cause, how necessary to the attainment of peace, and it is as a maritime nation which will not abuse that power, but which needs it for its own protection and for the safety of the world, that, I say, that the exercise of these maritime rights in war are not fit subjects for the jurisdiction of the International tribunal of the Hague, and
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that we ought not to sign the Optional Clause without an express reservation of that liberty of action which the right hon. Gentleman claimed for us four years ago.
Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: The House has listened with great interest and close attention to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), but I confess that at the end of it I felt uncertain whether the speech was directed in support of his Amendment or in opposition to the Motion, and whether he and his friends propose to vote only for the Amendment, or whether, if the Amendment be defeated, they propose also to vote against the Motion; for the greater part of his argument was devoted to opposition to the signing of the Optional Clause itself, apart from any reservations that might be made on questions of maritime importance. He went so far as to express his view that the right course in these matters was only to agree to arbitration if this country were able to specify, or to share in specifying, in advance in each particular case the terms of reference to arbitration. That would make wholly impossible any general consent by the nations of the world to refer all cases to a judicial tribunal.
The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was quite consistent with the policy which he and his colleagues adopted when they were responsible for the con-duct of our affairs. They refused altogether, and repeatedly, to sign the Optional Clause. They did not say that they would sign it subject to a reservation with regard to British naval rights in time of war; they refused it altogether. I am bound to say, speaking on behalf of my right hon. Friends and my hon. Friends who sit upon these benches, that their attitude in this, and in many cognate matters, was one of the reasons that drove us into very active and strenuous opposition to the late Government. We regard these questions as of supreme national and international importance, perhaps the greatest and the most important questions that now occupy the attention of the world. We were profoundly uneasy and dissatisfied with the halting action taken by the late Government with regard to them at Geneva and elsewhere. The late Gov-

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ernment presented to the League of Nations in February, 1928, a formal official document setting forth at length the whole of their position with regard to arbitration and with regard to the Optional Clause. It seemed to many of us to have been one of the most unhappy official pronouncements that had ever been made on behalf of this country. It included three closely-worded pages of negatives, pointing out all the difficulties which beset any approach to measures of arbitration and to an instrument such as the Optional Clause. Worst of all, was the reason which was given for this action. I will read the sentences:
"The cause of the somewhat small measure of acceptance that Article 36 has hitherto met with is to be found in the fact that the considerations which deter States from accepting binding obligations to arbitrate in all justiciable disputes operate in varying degrees as regards other foreign States. In contracting an international obligation towards another State a country must take into account the nature of its relations with that State. Obligations which it may be willing to accept towards one State it may not be willing to accept towards another."
That seems to be a principle which cuts at the very root of all international agreements. It denies absolutely the comity of nations, the equal status of nations before international law. And for the British Government in the name of this nation to have told the League of Nations that it would not enter into general arbitration Treaties, even dealing only with justiciable disputes, because it wished to draw a distinction between the course it would take with regard to some and with regard to other nations, seems to be a wholly indefensible action.
The late Government in regard to this matter of the Optional Clause pleaded the interests of the Dominions. They stated on more than one occasion that one thing which deterred them from joining any other States that had signed the Optional Clause was the unwillingness of the Dominions to agree unless their interests were more fully safeguarded. In another place, the spokesman of the late Government, Lord Cushendun, who has already been quoted, declared that it would only be possible to bring the Dominions into an agreement for signing the Optional Clause if it were subject to reservations which would make
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a mockery of the Clause. Those were his words spoken about a year or so ago. Owing to the action, very largely, of the British Government, other nations hung back and showed distrust, and the general result was a serious discouragement to the League, and a slackening of its pace of progress. The present Government, to their credit, have brushed aside all these considerations and, with much courage and wisdom, have signed the Optional Clause. I do not think that any action they have taken since they have been in office has met with a larger measure of popular approval throughout the country than this. Mark the consequences! As the Foreign Secretary said, every one of the Dominions has signed the Clause, and with no reservations beyond those that we have made ourselves. Through this action of His Majesty's Government and the lead they have given, a large number of foreign States have signed the Clause; altogether, 40 have expressed their agreement with it. I will read to the House a brief quotation from a well-informed Swiss newspaper, the "Journal de Genève," which follows very closely the doings of the League of Nations. Referring to the remarkable action on the part of so many Powers which had previously hung back and which have now expressed their agreement with the Optional Clause, it says:
"Why has this act (the signing of the Optional Clause), which was folly in 1924, become wisdom in 1929? It can hardly be doubted that the explanation is to be sought in the attitude of England, for it is the obstruction of England that explains the period of stagnation of the League. It is the impetus just given to it by Mr. MacDonald that explains the activity which rejoices us all to-day. This spectacle should make the English realise the enormous responsibility which rests on them in international affairs. If they hold back, the League holds back; if they advance, the League advances."
We, on these benches, will give the Government very cordial support in the action they have taken. We are filled, as I believe the vast majority of our fellow-countrymen are filled, with a most eager desire to end what one of our greatest soldiers, Field-Marshal Sir William Robertson, has called:
"The senseless abomination of modern war."
We do not believe that wars are inevitable. We think that those who say that

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they are inevitable, help to make them inevitable. We believe that mankind is not the sport of some blind chance or some overwhelming, uncontrollable force which must lead us again and again into conflict and disaster. We believe passionately that men should be the masters of their own destiny and that it is the business of statesmanship to make them so, and we regard this action that has been taken as one step towards that result.
The Amendment which has been moved by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham demands careful consideration upon its merits. It may be said that these general considerations are admirable, but they do not dispose of the very real dangers of the present and of the future, and that while considering international issues, we have to consider national issues also. That is quite true. A wise internationalism ought not to be in conflict with a sound nationalism. The two should be complementary of each other. The sentiments that I have been expressing and the general ideas that I have been putting forward give full scope for a patriotic love for one's own country and for a determination to maintain its just rights, and we have to consider how measures of this kind will affect the future of our country. There is a saying of Burke, that:
"The State includes the past, the present and the future generations."
We have to consider the interests of future generations as much as our own.
Into the legal aspects of the question of international law raised by the right hon. Gentleman, I do not propose to enter. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin), who has a very close knowledge of these questions, may have an opportunity of speaking in this Debate, and I believe that he will deal with some of those aspects; but one or two general observations may be made in regard to them. We have to realise the contingency, which we hope is exceedingly remote, and which we should do our utmost to obviate, that all the barriers that are being set up against war may fail, and that through events which are now unforeseen, war might possibly break out. If we did not have to conceive those possibilities, we should be able straight away to abolish all our armaments, and if we can only do so by agree-
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ment with other countries it is because we realise that those eventualities are still possible. When we come to consider these eventualities in relation to the question of British naval action, prize law and the other cognate matters, it would be a mistake to assume that the present conditions of the world and the methods of warfare necessarily lead us to believe that the traditional British view of this matter must be the right one, and the only one that should be taken, even on the narrowest grounds of selfish national interest and national safety. We are speaking now of the possible future risks of this country, and this Parliament would be doing less than its duty if it did not frankly envisage those risks.
The conditions of present-day warfare are very different from warfare in the days of Nelson. On the matter of blockade, the submarine has worked a very great change, and, even if the submarine were abolished, it might be found that the aeroplane has worked an even greater change. We are on the eve of the invention of an aeroplane which will be able not merely to pass to and fro at a high speed, but to hover. That has, indeed, already been accomplished, and we may be sure that if, unhappily, war should break out that would be one of the most formidable weapons which it would develop. Such an aeroplane could destroy merchant ships with the same certainty that a hawk can destroy a sparrow in the open field. In this country the one thing that is absolutely vital to us is our own food supply and the supply of raw materials, and in any future war we are just as likely to be the blockaded as to be the blockaders. The right which we should claim for ourselves we must admit for others, and it might very well be that a later generation, if these unhappy eventualities were ever to occur, would consider that the greatest mistake that this country had ever made was to insist too rigidly upon full freedom of blockade of neutral supplies in time of war, and that nothing had proved more deleterious to our interests.
It is most distasteful to dwell upon these matters at the very moment when we are bending all our efforts to prevent such eventualities, and let no one say that this House is engaged in cynically considering the measures for the next war, instead of pro-

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viding means to avoid them. That is not so. The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman and its implications must necessarily bring us to contemplate those distant possibilities, which we mean to use our utmost efforts to avoid. Another point arises in this connection. I believe that it is essential to the progress of the world, and is indeed the most important issue in the world politics of to-day, that there should be the most complete harmony and good will between the British Empire and the United States of America. There is no doubt—there is no harm in expressing these views frankly—that there has been a grave difference of opinion between the two nations on this very question of prize law and this very question of neutral rights in these matters. If ever this subject came to an issue with the United States, are we to fight on it? Members of the late Government have said most emphatically, and I am sure that they spoke the mind of the whole nation, that war between us and the United States is unthinkable. If it is unthinkable, then such an issue, if it ever unhappily arose, must be settled by other means. By what means?
Do the Opposition say that it would be settled by our own Courts of law, according to our own view of international law? That, obviously, is an impossible contention. Are things to go on indefinitely as they are, leaving this dangerous issue still open, always in the background? It seems to me that it is a delusion to think that safety is to be found only in inaction. This particular motion does not directly touch the point, for the United States is not a party to the Optional Clause of the League of Nations, but I do think that the signing of the Optional Clause, together with the Peace Pact, and the endeavour which is about to be made at Geneva to bring the Covenant into line with the Pact, and the attempts that are being made to formulate and complete the code of international law, will gradually impel us to secure a settlement of this issue with the United States. Therefore, the strengthening of the International Court, the formulation of international law and all these other measures will tend towards a solution of this most grave problem.
The right hon. Gentleman in his speech covered a much wider range. He
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was not dealing only with this matter of naval rights, but with the general question of courts of arbitration The world in these days since the War has really at heart the establishment of a new world order, with a better security based upon law. Neither this country, nor any country can at one and the same time share the general advantages of that new world order and maintain the individual advantage, if it were an individual advantage, inherited from the old world order. You must choose one or the other. You cannot proceed upon the narrow view of your own selfish interest, and at the same time share in the advantages of the general recourse to international law. It appears to me that the Debate between the two Front Benches, in view of the general speech of the right hon. Gentleman, is not a Debate merely between two sides of the House but is a Debate between two different points of view; indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that it is almost a Debate between two centuries: not a Debate between two sides of the House but a Debate between 1930 and 1830. For our part, we who sit on these benches will whole-heartedly support the policy and action of His Majesty's Government in this matter.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. NORMAN ANGELL: There is so much complexity in this subject that I shall certainly need all the indulgence which this House generally accords to a new Member addressing it for the first time. If it were true that a Labour Government in 1930 has not made the provision against a certain contingency quite as watertight as it may have desired to make it in 1924, I do not think we on this side of the House are going to be greatly embarrassed thereby. It merely means that the world has moved, and that the hesitation which may have been justified in 1924 is not justified in 1930. Indeed, again and again the late Government in resisting the general tendency to obligatory arbitration up to the point that it must wait upon the development of public opinion, agreed that ultimately it was a desirable thing but that the world was not yet ready, that we needed certain further appeasements. That was the tone of their excuse for failing to go as far as the present Government have gone. Did they mean these things? Did they really mean that as the world de-

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veloped they would later on take a stand upon obligatory arbitration, or were they just soft words intended to hide the intention not to move at all? If it were true that we have to abide by the position of 10 years ago, there would be no hope in this matter at all, and there would be no sense in any conference's or legislation, or anything else, because they all imply that the world is moving and growing, and that a time comes for new measures and new laws. I suggest that the signature of the Optional Clause is one.
I share the difficulty of the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) in understanding whether the plea of the ex-Foreign Secretary was for the Amendment or against the Motion. The Amendment deals purely with Sea Law, but there was hardly a word upon that point until the end of his speech. His speech, on the whole, was directed against the general principle of obligatory arbitration and even against the principle of Article 16 of the Covenant. Really one wonders at this date, 10 years after the signature of that Clause, whether the world has moved forward or back when an ex-Foreign Secretary can, on the Floor of this House, plead that the signature of Article 16 was dangerous. His argument amounted to this, that we should not go forward to make that a safe engagement, but go back as far as possible and disembarrass ourselves from it's obligations. One word on the juridical side of this question. The argument of the late Foreign Secretary was that the signature of the Clause would internationalise Sea Law and render it less nationalist. On the basis of that argument he foresaw difficulties with the United States. But surely the position of the United States is that we take too national a view of Sea Law, and any move towards its internationalisation would be welcomed by the United States. Having lived there for some 10 years of my life I know something of the feelings of Americans on this subject.
In the short space of time that I intend to occupy the House I am not going to enter into what a former Prime Minister of this country called the juridical niceties of this question so much as the real issue of policy which divides the late Government from the present
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Government. The ex-Foreign Secretary said that this was a difference of degree. Yes, but it is a difference of degree so great as to constitute a difference in kind. It is a difference of emphasis, and I should describe the emphasis on the other side of the House as not being directed so much at making war less likely as upon being sure of winning the war when it came. The emphasis I suggest on this side of the House is to make the contingency of war improbable altogether. In that difference of emphasis, there is a vital difference of policy. The implication is that every time we sacrifice any freedom of action, any belligerent rights at sea, we sacrifice a useful tool of defence; that we sacrifice safety for a vague ideal; that to the degree to which we get away from the old order towards international arrangements which tie our hands in any way we weaken ourselves and surrender tools which have proved effective. I am going to take complete issue with the idea that in these days the old methods can be effective at all.
We on this side of the House desire to move as rapidly as may be towards an international order, not from any abstract ideal considerations, but because only in the creation of this international order can our country find security in the vital processes by which it lives, foreign trade, the import of raw materials and food, the export of our manufactures. And we are pressing to that new international order because the old order has utterly and completely broken down. May I ask the House to consider for a moment how far it has broken down? In every one of these Debates a great deal is said about the matter of foreign trade and the vulnerability of our economic situation; how our people are fed by foreign trade; ships going out and coming in—by an elaborate industrial, economic and financial apparatus. All that is perfectly true; it is vital to us. If we cannot maintain the smooth working of that international apparatus we have failed, and have failed to protect our people. Has the old method protected that indispensable and vital apparatus? We have just passed through a protective operation, come through a victorious war. Is that apparatus being really protected? Did these vital processes not suffer?

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The result of our victorious War is that 10 years after we have to face a graver economic crisis than we have known since the beginning of the industrial revolution. That whole machine has been turned completely upside down, and the results are expressed in the problems which confront us in this House—1,500,000 men unemployed, and the uncertainty of the future. Hon. Members opposite may retort: "Oh, yes, but suppose we had lost? Well, look at the State which did lose—Germany. Is her trade so much worse than ours? Does this apparatus work with such great difficulty in Germany compared with our own? Are the vital processes of life in Germany very much less safe and sure than ours? Do her ships, which have behind them no great navy, travel the seas in less safety than our own? Is there much difference between victor and vanquished? The moral of all this is that we have had to burn down our house in order to prevent it being robbed. That is an indispensable element in the operation of the old system, and it is because it is an indispensable element, because under the old system, and under the rights which the ex-Foreign Secretary would preserve, you inevitably get this result, that we want to move towards a new order. May I remind hon. Members why the old order, the exclusive nationalist tool of defence, the kind of right which critics of the new order would desire to see immutable, must inevitably result in conflict? What is the essence of the old method? It was once said by a very distinguished Member of this House when speaking in the north of England:
"Gentlemen, there is just one way in which you can have peace and be secure, and that is to be so much stronger than your prospective rival that he will not dare to attack you."
He went on to say that that was a self-evident proposition, and that by that means alone could you have peace. I was present at the meeting and could not forbear the interjection as to whether that was the advice be would give Germany. The old method amounts to this: Here are two States, or two groups of States, how shall they get peace and be secure? There are statesmen who say that each will get peace and both will be secure when each is stronger than the other. It defies arithmetic, and it
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defies something else. It defies the only social principle upon which it is possible to create any alternative organisation. It defies the principle with which obligatory arbitration is very intimately linked.
In the objections to the principle of compulsory arbitration, we are urged again and again to think of the needs of defence and we have been reminded, for instance, that the United States have refused to go further than the present obligations of the Pact. I do not take the view that it is the last word of American opinion. I do not believe it for a moment. It will depend a great deal on what we do. But America has undertaken not to fight, as other signatories have undertaken, except for defence, and I want to show how that reservation affects us. What is "Defence"? We have the view that these great navies really do defend ships at sea; that they are a police force. Police forces are not created for the purpose of fighting each other. When we hear that Manchester has increased the effectiveness of her police force we do not immediately hold a conference to establish a parity between London and Manchester. They are not a police force, but they may become a police force if we progress with the general idea of obligatory arbitration. If, therefore, defence is not that kind of thing, is defence the defence of territory to preserve the inviolability of hearth and home? Indeed Mr. Kellogg has suggested that that might be the test of a defensive war—resistance to invasion.
That, incidentally, would condemn every foreign war in which America has been engaged. It would condemn every one of the Allies except Belgium. Look at our own history. We are very proud of it, and as an Englishman I am prepared to plead that all our wars were defensive. I want to keep out the ironic note, because the more you take the view that our wars were truly defensive the more are you piling up the argument to sign the Optional Clause. We are proud of the fact that our Army has gone to almost every country of the world. Kipling writes about it. I was considering the other day the countries to which it had not gone. There was Switzerland, though I am not sure about that. But I was sure about Greenland. But there is one

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other in which the British Army has for 800 years never fought a foreign foe, and that is Great Britain.
The history of every other major State is the same. America—her first war as an independent State was in the Mediterranean, 3,000 miles from her borders. The next war was, not to resist invasion, but over a question of sea rights, about which we are wrangling yet. Her next was with Mexico, but not to resist invasion. Her next near war was with Maximilian, which might have come about, except that it was just after the Civil War, and Lincoln said to his Cabinet: "One war at a time, please." The next near war was with us, as the ex-Foreign Secretary has reminded us, over Venezuela. That would not have been to resist invasion.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: But there was no war.
Mr. ANGELL: I said "near war." The right hon. Gentleman did not hear my description. The next actual war was with Spain. It was not to resist invasion; there was no question of the Spanish troops invading America. The next was with the Philippines, some thousands of miles from her borders. The next was with Germany. It was not to resist invasion; the German troops were otherwise engaged at the moment. Those were not aggressive wars; they were defensive wars. But my point is that they were not in defence of territory. What were they defensive of? Here we get to the heart of the matter. They were defensive of national interest—what each believes to be his national interest—defensive of national right, ultimately the right to be our own judge of our own rights. Now, if that is what defence means, which it must and does, the demand for a certain preponderance of power, for having our hands free and untied, takes on a rather different colour.
If it were truly merely territory, the demand for a larger Army than a neighbour might not be provocative, but when defence means the defence of our view of our right, then it comes down to this, that one side says to another "Quite true, we ask a larger Army or larger Navy than you, but it cannot be provocative in any sense because it is merely for defence, that is to say, that when you
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and I get into a quarrel, which we shall, about undeveloped territory, access to this ice-free harbour or the use of this canal or river, all we ask in that dispute is that we shall be its judge and so much stronger than you that you will just have to accept our judgment without question. Can anything be fairer?" Does the other party accept that view? The other party points out that there is just one person who should not be the judge in a dispute, and that is one of the litigants.
The trouble with the old order is not merely that it defies arithmetic, but that it defies morals, because it means that you must, under that order, on behalf of the security of your country, all the time be claiming rights that you do not accord to the other fellow. All the time you are asking the other state to accept a position which you would have refused to accept if it had been asked of you. The only alternative to this is third party judgment—arbitration, obligatory arbitration, arbitration agreed upon beforehand, not arbitration with a reservation that "Oh, well, when the time comes we shall see whether it is suitable for arbitration or not." If there is that large reservation you will inevitably be thrown back on the old order and the old anarchy.
I want to make two points more. We have an interest in the creation of this international system, not merely as a preventive of war. We have an economic interest in it in this country, because we are dependent upon an international economy in a nationalist world. We have an interest in its development because only by that means can we place these processes of which I have spoken upon a secure foundation of law, of contract. Only by that means can we hope that the barriers to international trade can gradually and ultimately be worn down. The nationalist impulse is, as we know, favourable to the creation of those barriers. There are seven thousand miles more of tariff walls since the War than there were before. Every year almost sees some new one. That is the result of the nationalist impulse as opposed to the international habit of mind. If our position is to be a workable one in the world at all, if the means by which our people earn their daily bread are to be secure, we must somehow create an order, an

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international order, which shall be a political reality, and upon that base gradually an economic order which shall be international too.
If the world is to remain nationalist, then our position will become progressively insecure. It is impossible. As the right hon. Member for Darwen has so well reminded us, the degree, the pace depends largely on the example which we set. We criticise the League, criticise its instruments, but these institutions and this League are exactly what the constistituent members make them. There is a story of some French peasants who desired to give their parish priest a cask of wine. The arrangement was that each peasant should contribute a bottle. Each peasant thought, "Well, after all, my bottle will not make much difference." So when the tap was turned on the great day pure water came out. We complain that the wine which comes from this international cask is such poor stuff, and yet we water down and water down our individual contributions. We must stop that; we must tie our hands in advance.
This is my last point. We must tie our hands in advance because of a factor, human nature, which is so often brought as an argument against this international institution. All my life I have heard it said that people are so pugnacious and mankind so quarrelsome. I know. That is why we must strengthen the League and strengthen all such arrangements. It is the only reason. If we were not of that nature, if in national patriotism there were nothing irrational or quarrelsome and in human nature nothing defective, of course we should not need a League. But neither should we need our constitution, our laws, this House or the Ten Commandments. The time has come to add to those institutions, and to strengthen them. It is true that the impulse that checks the step forward is a natural one. Nationalism is still a strong force. I suggest to the House that society has become too complex and too vulnerable a thing to be guided merely by impuse, instinct, to be guided even by what I might call bulldog-ism.
The right hon. Gentleman, the former Foreign Secretary, has, I think, rather taken pride in the fact that we are an illogical people. Perhaps we are, but I
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do not think that we ought to be over-vain of—how shall I put it?—our stupidity. We English have not in the past laid great stress on the need for intelligence.
"Be good, 'fair' maid, and let who will be clever."
I suggest to the House that in these days the fair maid cannot be good unless she is clever. There comes the point when too great a scepticism, too great a caution is suicidal. I would illustrate by a very great American philosopher, William James. He said: "I am climbing in the Alps and I work myself into such a position that I cannot get down, and if I am to save my life at all I must jump a chasm which confronts me—and a chasm confronts Europe to-day—and I put it to myself as a practical man whether it is possible for me to jump this chasm. I decide that it is. This decision gives me the necessary confidence and faith. I jump with confidence, in a business-like way, and succeed. My success is proof positive, the best kind of proof, proof by the event, that that was the true, the practical and the scientific conclusion." But, he adds, "My conclusion would have been just as practical and true and scientific if I had decided that I could not do this, because if I had come to that decision the very fact that I had decided that I could not do it would have deprived me of the will to try. I would have launched myself forward in a moment of desperation and would have lost my foothold, and my destruction would have been proof positive that that was the true, the practical and the scientific conclusion." Which means that in a whole range of human affairs the factor which makes the difference between what is practical and what is not is the factor of the human will. If now we decide that the time has come for this country to give a lead, to give reality to these international institutions, and if we go forward, it is that decision, the decision that it is practical which will make it practical.
James's point is that when you have two courses before you and the considerations are fairly evenly balanced, the course of wisdom is to cast aside doubt and decide for the more hopeful and the more fruitful. It is that decision which will kick the beam in favour

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of the practicability of the more hopeful. If we believe we shall be saved; if we doubt we shall surely perish. The time has come, in our steps towards a new international order, for us to mix intelligence with our courage and to realise that we are taking these steps towards a new order—to which this Clause will be so profound a contribution—not merely with a view to fulfilling some vague alturistic aim, but because by that method alone can we give our people and our country true and real security. It is on that behalf that I urge the House to pass by a large majority this Resolution, believing that in so doing it will have discharged in the best way possible its obligation to protect the heritage which is ours.
Captain EDEN: I feel sure that all Members of the House will wish to extend their congratulations to the hon. Member who has just sat down upon a very exceptional maiden speech. I should be the last to pretend that I am in agreement with all he said; but I should be the first to express what I know we all feel, namely, sincere admiration for his earnestness and for the oratory by means of which he expressed that earnestness to the House. I am sure we shall enjoy on future occasions the contributions with which he honours our proceedings. I feel in rather a quandary after a speech such as the hon. Member's. I am something of a heretic about the Optional Clause in this sense, that it has always seemed to me that a kind of legend has grown up around the Optional Clause. When the late Government was in office, that Government and its supporters were frequently and vigorously accused of failure to sign the Optional Clause. It was even said that this failure might be held to amount to a holding up of the work of disarmament and so forth. I do not think that criticism would be made now by anyone who had an opportunity of studying the White Paper. The hon. Member who has just spoken was suffering just a little from the effect of this legend. The speech which he made with such eloquence really could have been made with equal effect and perhaps even more effect in support of the Covenant of the League to which we have already subscribed.
The truth is that the Optional Clause, immensely important as its consequences
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may be and probably will be for this country, does not mark a departure in principle from the practice which has been followed before the right hon. Gentleman appended his signature to it-There is no fundamental departure in principle at all. The main principle underlying the policy of which this is part is quite simply whether this country prefers arbitration to war and this has been settled long since. Over and over again in treaties and other documents we have emphasised the fact that this country has preferred and will always prefer arbitration to war. Therefore there is no departure in principle in saying that we are going to accept arbitration. It is simply a question of whether we will accept this particular form of arbitration for particular sets of disputes—that is all. All these other very rich phrases about future international decisions and the effect of arbitration, are really beside the point, because these questions are not raised at all by the signature of the Optional Clause. It simply involves the somewhat technical and perhaps not very inviting question of whether or not by submitting certain disputes to a certain court we are doing the best we could do in the course of international peace. That, I think, is the sole issue before us.
The House will surely recollect—and I am sure the Foreign Secretary will endorse this statement—that this country to-day is making a very extensive use of the Court at The Hague. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Liberal party talked as though the late Government had never heard about the International Court. The late Government made more use of that Court than the Government of any other country whatever. The right hon. Gentleman talked as though the International Court were some new discovery which the Foreign Secretary, with his genius had made, but if he makes as much use of the International Court as the last Government did, he will be following a most excellent example.
Mr. A. HENDERSON: Give us five years in which to do it.
Captain EDEN: I give the right hon. Gentleman as long as he likes and I hope he does so but he may not deserve

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another five years. But there is no question about the fact that the late Government made extensive use of the Court at The Hague and if the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Liberal benches had taken the trouble, he could have ascertained that fact without difficulty. Again, on the political issue, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) said at the Geneva meeting in 1927, we have arbitrated more disputes probably than any other country in the world. Why then the impatient appeal addressed to us? It is not as if we had ever shown any reluctance to use arbitration. The House will remember the political dispute which we had with Turkey, and how that dispute was referred at once to the Council of the League, and how we used the judgment of the Council, not to impose it on the Turkish Government, but simply as a means by which we could ultimately arrive, by a more generous concession than even the Council thought right, at common agreement between the countries concerned. Therefore I earnestly appeal to the House that in this Debate we should not allow ourselves to be led into either extravagant denunciations of the late, Government based on false hypotheses, or into extravagant hopes of what the Optional Clause will do.
For my part I am not prepared to join in the chorus of belief that the signature of the Optional Clause or, as it should be called, the Obligatory Clause, is going to have all the moral effect which some hon. Members seem to expect. The House should solely judge it as a business proposition. We ought to consider how far, by appending our signature to it, with the existing reservation, we serve the best interests of international peace. May I state briefly some of the reasons which make me a little anxious about the position as it stands. This White Paper deals with the interpretation of international law and makes very light of the differences of opinion existing between the Anglo-American and the Continental schools of international law. I am bound to say that I think the White Paper errs a little on the side of optimism. We have, for instance, the opinion of a no less distinguished lawyer than a former Lord Chancellor, Lord Hailsham,
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"That International Law really only means the customs accepted as binding by civilised nations. There is the very greatest uncertainty as to what falls within the scope of International Law."
I do not think that the Attorney General would quarrel with that interpretation, and it surely places upon us a further obligation to think very carefully of how we express the limitations which we consider necessary in view of the present indefinite nature of international law. In that connection the White Paper uses some curious arguments. It says, in effect, that it is quite true that some differences will exist, but that it may be some time, and probably a long time, before international law can be codified and before there can be certainty where there is uncertainty to-day. Therefore, it argues, it would be foolish to wait and we ought to go ahead. I do not think that that is a logical argument. If uncertainty be admitted, as it is admitted, then the assumption of this argument is that, if it only took a short time to secure certainty, we ought to wait, but as it will take a long time, we ought not to wait. That is a thoroughly unsound argument. If there be uncertainty, and it is admitted in the White Paper, then, whether the time be short or long, there should be a farther definition and a further clarifying before we set our hands to the ratification of this Optional Clause. In support of what I have just said, I shall quote one who was not a member of my own party, namely, the late Lord Haldane. The right hon. Gentleman opposite will be familiar with the observations of the late Lord Haldane on the signing of this Clause, and I will only weary the House by referring to one sentence. Lord Haldane referred to the language of the Covenant and contrasted it with the language which we are now placing in this Clause. He said:
"The language used in this Article (Article 13 of the Covenant) is less stringent than Article 36 of the Protocol of 1920 (what we are now embodying in this Paper), and gives rise to less embarrassment."
That is very similar to the criticism expressed by Lord Hailsham. He concludes:
"At present I am averse to the explicit acceptance of a principle which will probably give rise, if so accepted, to keen controversy."

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That is an expression of opinion, admittedly given some time ago by one who did not belong to this party—by one who may, indeed, be regarded by some right hon. Gentlemen opposite as a man who was ahead of his time, because he joined the Labour party before they did. I am sure no one would complain of him as being a reactionary. The point of view which he expressed is one with which the House should still be concerned. As I listened to the speech of the Foreign Secretary I was rather sorry to hear what seemed to me to be an implication which could not be resisted from his remarks, namely, that signature of the Optional Clause must logically follow from the signature of the Pact of Paris. The reflection which occurs to me is: What is the position of those who signed the Pact of Paris, but made it quite clear that they had no intention of signing the Optional Clause? The position of the United States in this matter is well known. They have no intention of signing the Optional Clause and they would be surprised to think that this House considered their signature any less valuable because it was attached to the Peace Pact only and not to the Optional Clause. We ought to be very careful in our expressions on this matter.
I do not want to make any difficulties for the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else, but I think that someone speaking in this Debate for the Government ought to make it quite plain that there was no intention in the course of the right hon. Gentleman's speech to suggest that the signature of the Pact of Paris without the signature of the Optional Clause would make the signature of the Pact of Paris, as such, any less valuable. Personally, I think that the right hon. Gentleman would have been on much firmer ground if he had tacked this Optional Clause on to the Covenant of the League instead of on to the Pact of Paris. I think that is the mistake which he made in his speech. I am sorry also to find in this White Paper the implication that the Covenant as it stands does not meet our needs. I suppose I belong to the last century, but I am one of those who think that the Covenant was better drawn than its critics of to-day realise. There is admittedly an elasticity in the Covenant. Personally, I think it is a very good thing that that elasticity exists and that
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these attempts which are made from time to time to block up holes, imaginary or real, and to stiffen up the machinery, are not likely to have very happy results. You cannot mechanise peace. Peace, if it comes, is maintained as the result of a feeling growing up among the nations of the world, and all that you have to do is to provide the instruments of interpretation. You can make these instruments too rigid. If you mechanise them too much, you are far more likely to hinder the cause of international peace than to help it. These are considerations to which the right hon. Gentleman might well bend his mind.
There is another matter to which I would briefly refer. There is a reservation in this White Paper by means of which some disputes can be referred to the Council and not to the International Court. The impression which arises in our minds is this: In the event of this country having a difference of opinion with some other country, and considering that the matter should be referred to the Council and not to the International Court, is it necessary for both parties to be agreed that the matter should go to the Council? I do not think it is. I think one party can bring a matter before the Council. Very well so far, but there is a later stage. If one of the members of the Council is anxious to transfer the matter from the Council to the International Court, would it lie in its power alone to effect that transfer? I do not see why one should be thought to be making mischief if one speaks quite frankly.
I have in my mind the interpretation of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty proposal, which is a typical example. I hope it will not happen, but it is conceivable that at some distant date there will be differences of opinion between us and Egypt as to the interpretation of some conditions arising under that Treaty. The right hon. Gentleman might think that matter was essentially political, and therefore want it referred to the Council of the League. Egypt might not think so, and might want it referred to the International Court at the Hague. What would happen at Geneva then? We are debarred, as an interested party, from being present, but if Egypt secures the support of one other Power to say the

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matter must be transferred to the International Court, to be decided by a body which the right hon. Gentleman himself admits is not constituted to decide political differences, would that one Power have its way? It is questions like those which I think should be before us to-day when we are deciding this very important matter.
On the question of belligerent rights at sea, this paper argues this very difficult question very ingeniously indeed, for several paragraphs, but I confess the arguments are so ingenious that when I got to the end I thought them altogether too ingenious to convince me. The final summing up sentence, to which the former Foreign Secretary referred, states that
"as between members of the League, there can be no neutral rights, because there can be no neutrals."
As between Members of the League perhaps, but unhappily all nations of the world are not Members of the League, and those very important questions which are thereby raised remain unsolved even after the extremely acute and carefully contrived arguments contained in these pages. It is unfortunately, I think, true that in international affairs it is not the expected but the unexpected which disturbs the equilibrium of nations.
You can have your flight of stairs carefully arranged, and you can induce the nations to go up and down in well-behaved order, but there may be somebody who likes sometimes to break away, and who might prefer to slide down the banisters. I am sure the present Foreign Secretary will never want to slide down the banisters—he will never do anything so indecorous as that—but somebody might want to do so, and the more you crowd your stairs with these technicalities, the more temptation there may be to slide down the banisters; and it is that consideration which makes me a little suspicious of these carefully contrived and highly technical arguments. I believe there is no matter, so long as we are a naval Empire at all, which can more intimately affect us than belligerent rights in time of war, and I do not think it necessary to be taunted with going hack to the last century in order to say that we on this side, as I am sure the Government also,
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are anxious that in the interpretation of our rights under these reservations we shall leave no doubt on a matter which is absolutely vital to the future existence of the British Empire.
In conclusion, I believe the right hon. Gentleman, in going about this signature of the Optional Clause, cannot be too cautious, simply because, as I have said, I do not admit that there is here some great new statement of principle. There are tunes in the lives of nations and peoples when it is necessary to take risks, even grave risks, in the cause of world peace. Several such have arisen since the War. We took such risks when we signed the Covenant of the League, and I sometimes think that some hon. Members have not read the Covenant of the League, and do not appreciate the tremendous obligations we have already under it—far more important, of course, than the comparatively technical obligations under this Optional Clause. When these issues come along, grave issues, the nations of the world have to take risks for peace, and would take them, and must take them. The responsibility would rest upon us. We took them when we signed the Covenant, and again we took very grave responsibilities when we signed the Treaties of Locarno; but there is no great departure of principle here, and upon this comparatively limited issue the House should go carefully, and examine stage by stage the various limitations which are in question.
If this were a great issue, I would be with the right hon. Gentleman, the Foreign Secretary, but it s not a great issue in principle, and nobody who has read the Clause through and compared the present position with what it will be under the Clause can admit that there is any departure in principle, but only the possibility of serious differences in practice. The right hon. Gentleman should walk delicately in this matter. He should be a very Agag here, and I am afraid the effect of general election promises has made him try to drive like Jehu. We think that in this matter the country and the Government have the very gravest responsibility, not so much to ourselves, who may never be called upon to face any of these responsibilities bound up in this Paper, but to future

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generations, who may have cause to rue our action to-day unless it be carefully watched, studied and explained.
Mr. COCKS: After the very brilliant maiden speech which we heard from my old friend and teacher, the hon. Member for North Bradford (Mr. Angell), I think I may say, if I may use one of the images which he used at the end of his speech, that I am not facing the prospect of leaping the chasm of my own maiden speech with any special confidence. I rather feel more like that animal, the chamois, which was described by a poet who was once a Member of this House as an animal
"Which suffers from spasms
On the edge of deep chasms,
and lives in perpetual fear."
At the same time, I know it is the custom of this House to give to those Members who are undergoing the very trying ordeal of a maiden speech the utmost consideration. I should like to add that I feel it is a very great privilege to be allowed to make my first contribution to the Debates in this House on a subject so important as the present one, important not merely to our country, but to the whole of civilisation. I hope the House to-night will ratify the Government's decision to sign the Optional Clause, and I hope it will do it to-night, without any delay, because, if I may judge from the aspect of the benches below the Gangway opposite, certain meetings have been taking place which may make the continued existence of the Government to-morrow a matter of some doubt.
I was reading the other day that every step in the advance of civilisation is due to the substitution of the force of argument for the argument of force, or, if I may put it in another way, to the gradual conquest of the forces which make for conflict by the practice of those principles which make for reason, cooperation, justice, and law. That is the Way in which our civilisation advances. I think that if we look back we shall see what has happened, how our civilisation has advanced, and how humanity has gradually risen from a condition of primitive barbarism, as the unit of government has gradually extended, first to the family, then to the tribe or clan, then to the city state, then, in this country at least, to the heptarchy, and after-
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wards we come to the independent sovereign State, inside whose frontiers and boundaries lawlessness has been eliminated and the reign of justice prevails.
Here for the moment it seems to me that this process of co-operation in the development of law and justice seems to have stopped, for before the War we had in Europe a number of separate, independent, sovereign States, each, according to the philosophy which then prevailed, subject to the laws of growth, with their increasing populations, demanding places in the sun, demanding colonies, markets, and so on. Therefore, so it was argued, their interests in the long run were bound to clash, and war thereby became inevitable. That, I think was the prevailing philosophy of that time, and so we had that pre-War condition of a number of independent nations believing that the only defence for the future was to prepare for war. We were told that if we wanted peace, we must prepare for war, and so we bad these independent sovereign States armed to the teeth, we had the system of dividing those States into rival alliances, the balance of power, and so on, we had arms piled up to the sky on every side, and we had the whole atmosphere filled with suspicion and hate and, what is worse, with mutual fear; and in the end we did not have peace at all, but the most disastrous war the modern world has ever seen, a war in which 7,000,000 people perished. As we all know, men perished in that struggle who to-day might have been the leaders of the world, and God knows we need them.
As a result of that terrible catastrophe, most of us, not only in this country, but in other countries as well, have learned a lesson. We have learned that the pre-War system was wrong, that the pre-War system of nations dependent entirely upon their own strength and power, upon alliances, and so on, was wrong, that civilisation itself must not in the future put its trust upon "reeking tube and iron shard," but upon a system, an entirely different system, which recognises that after all nations are not entirely independent, hut that they are interdependent, that each nation is not a unit by itself, a sort of planet swimming around in the universe, but is part of a community, the community of

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civilisation. It is upon that conception, and upon the changed philosophy that has developed from that conception, not in America only, not in England only, but in many centres throughout the world, that there has been built up, first of all, the League of Nations, that there has been established the Permanent Court of Justice at The Hague, and that finally, only last year, the nations agreed to sign that solemn pact never again to settle their disputes by war—the Pact of Paris. We give all honour to the men who first made it a matter of international fame, Mr. Kellogg and M. Briand.
7.0 p.m.
What is the present position? There are at least 60 nations which signed the Kellogg Pact by which they have agreed absolutely to surrender the weapon of war as an instrument of national policy. But although 60 nations have signed that Pact, the position is yet incomplete, because although the nations have agreed never again to use the weapon of war for the settlement of international disputes, they have not supplemented that Pact by any machinery of agreement by which they shall in the future decide every possible dispute that may arise between them. Side by side with the Kellogg Pact is the Covenant of the League of Nations, and by the Covenant of the League of Nations, as everyone knows, machinery is provided for discussion and conciliation. In the Covenant of the League of Nations there are gaps. For example, if a dispute comes before the Council of the League of Nations then, unless that Council is unanimous, its decision has not any force in law. It seems to me that one of the great opportunities for statesmanship in the future is to close up the gaps of the Covenant in the League of Nations and implement the Kellogg Pact.
Broadly speaking, there are two classes of disputes which divide nations—justiciable questions which involve interpretation of treaties, or questions of international law which can be settled by judicial means; and the great mass of problems and questions which are not juridical and can only be settled by methods of diplomacy and arbitration. The latter are not new before the House, and I will confine myself to the
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main question which concerns disputes of a justiciable character. To settle them the League of Nations 10 years ago set up the Permanent Court of Justice at The Hague, and, by common consent, in the last nine or 10 years that Court has rendered valuable and useful services. No service has been rendered to that Court greater than the contribution which this country gave in the person of the late Lord Finlay and the various acts which took place while he vas acting in that Court.
It has been said to-night that one objection to signing the Optional Clause is the difference in the conception of the law held by the Anglo-Saxon people, by Britain and the United States, and the Continental conception, which is based on Roman law. It is useful to remember in that connection that the late Lord Finlay was brought up in the traditions of Anglo-Saxon law. He took part in 23 different decisions made by that Court, and on three occasions only was he in a minority, and on only one of those three occasions was there a matter involving international law of any importance. On that particular occasion, when he differed from his Continental colleagues, he found himself on the opposite side to his American colleague who, like himself, was brought up on Anglo-Saxon law. Therefore, that objection is not one of serious moment.
Last September the Government signed the Optional Clause by which it agreed, with certain reservations mentioned in the White Paper, to accept in future the jurisdiction of the Permanent Court and to accept its final decision on all matters of dispute that go before that Court. I would like to congratulate the Members of His Majesty's Opposition upon the progress they have themselves made on this particular subject. I do not say that because of the speech we have heard from the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) for whom, personally, I have the very highest respect, but because of the actual terms of the Amendment he has put down. According to that Amendment the Opposition now accepts the Government's decision to sign the Optional Clause with one reservation only, that dealing with the question of maritime warfare. That was not always the position of His Majesty's Opposition.

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It was not the position of His Majesty's Opposition up to a few weeks ago. I find that on 11th July, 1927, the right hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) stated in this House the Government's reason for not signing the Optional Clause. He said:
"No constitutional Government can guarantee that the necessary legislation that would arise in case of an unfavourable arbitral award would be passed by Parliament."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th July, 1927; col. 1886, Vol. 208.]
He was objecting to the jurisdiction of the Court because he could not guarantee that Parliament would accept an unfavourable award. Last year, in another place, the late Government refused to accept a Motion in favour of signing the Optional Clause on the ground that there was no way of excluding matters of vital interest. Three days later, in the well-known Note sent by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham to the League of Nations on the subject of arbitration, he said:
"There are some political questions even of a justiciable nature as to which a country feels that…the stage has not yet been reached when it can agree unreservedly in advance to submit them to an arbitration tribunal."
He made the suggestion that public opinion might not agree to an adverse decision made against this country. I see that the right hon. Gentleman has returned. I did not like saying this when he was out of the House. I think that in the Note which he sent to the League of Nations the suggestion that the British people might not accept an adverse award given against them in that Court of jurisdiction which they had accepted was an unfair challenge to the sense of justice and fair play of the British people which should not have been made.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: If he looks at the passage again he will see that was not what I intended to say, or indeed did say.
Mr. COCKS: I fully accept the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he did not mean that, but I had quoted just, before he came in a statement made by the then Under-Secretary in which he made that point. On 1st May last in another place, the late Government resisted Lord Cecil's Motion in favour of signing the Optional Clause, and in the Debate on the Address at the beginning
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of Parliament I did not detect in the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman or any of his colleagues any particular enthusiasm in favour of signing the Optional Clause, even with the reservation about maritime warfare. On the question of maritime warfare, which has been discussed—and I realise that in making a maiden speech I must not be too controversial; it would be a want of tact to do that—but on this question of maritime warfare I would like to say that I do think the Foreign Minister has made a very full and effective reply to the criticisms on that point. After all, as I have shown from the quotations which I have given, if the Foreign Minister has changed his views on the question of this particular reservation since 1924 owing to the changed international conditions, the chief Members of His Majesty's Opposition have changed their views also, and they have changed their views, I am glad to say, for the better.
What is this point about maritime warfare? I am not a Law Officer of the Crown, or anything of that sort, so I would like to put the point shortly as it occurs to me. It seems that conditions have changed entirely since the Foreign Minister made his speech in Geneva in 1924. The League of Nations was, of course, then in existence, but the League of Nations is now very much stronger. Its prestige is very much higher to-day, largely as a result of his own action, than it was five years ago. We have also had the signature of the Kellogg Pact. What is the result of that double obligation, of the terms of the covenant of the League of Nations and of the Kellogg Pact, on the question of maritime warfare? Most people agree that if the British Navy is to be used in the future—and I hope, as all Members will hope, that there may never be any need for it to be used at all—but if it is to be used again, the British Navy will only be used on behalf of the Council of the League of Nations as against some Power which has broken the Covenant of the League or the Kellogg Pact. I do not conceive that in such a situation the Court at the Hague would formulate any rule or law preventing this country acting on behalf of the common unity of civilisation as far as maritime warfare is concerned.
There is another point which has occurred to me which has not been raised to-night. It is this: Supposing there is

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a case in which our neighbour across the Atlantic—and it has been said in a case of the sort that I have mentioned America would not find it incumbent upon her to give succour to the nation which had broken the Kellogg Pact—but supposing America took the opposite view-to that, and maintained her position regarding the rights of neutral shipping. Even in a case of that sort, the Kellogg Pact must be maintained. Then, even though the International Court at The Hague held that our action, say, in searching neutral shipping, was legal, I am sure that the British Government at that time would say, "Legal or not, it is not expedient."
I believe that the greatness of our country depends not so much on the power of our Navy, or upon the wealth of our citizens, as upon the extent to which we accept the obligations of international law and international justice. I feel that the time has come when England should say, "We do not believe any nation has a right to judge its own cause." Because I believe that, I feel that one of the most glorious days in the history of this country in future will be the day when, having taken a case which we believe to be absolutely right to the International Court at The Hague, a decision is given against us on behalf of some small Power, and we, although we have all our proud history behind us, accept the adverse decision. An even greater day will be when a decision is given against us, not in favour of some small State to whom perhaps we could be magnanimous, but to some rival State, a Power equal to ourselves, and we can say, although we might believe we were right, that we accept the decision of the Court, because we believe in international justice and international law. The day when that happens will be a more glorious day than the day of Jutland or the day of Waterloo. It is because I believe the signing of the Optional Clause will bring that day a little nearer, that I hope the House will vote for the Government's Motion.
Major HILLS: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the wider aspect of this question. I assure him that the House has listened with very great interest to his maiden
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speech, and may I very heartily congratulate him. He has given a real contribution to this Debate for, starting with the larger view of the subject, he brought down his argument to the point that is before the House. I think that he will be satisfied that he has pleased the House, and I hope that he has pleased himself. The point before the House is one of immense importance, but is really a very narrow point: are we to add one reservation to the reservations already made on the effect of the Optional Clause? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) takes a view which I find it hard to follow. The Foreign Secretary proposes five reservations, all of them important, and one very important indeed. We suggest that a sixth should be added and because of that, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen tells us that we are living in the last century. The Foreign Secretary ought to be pleased that, while five reservations are the last word in progress, six reservations are reactionary.
I stand where I believe a vast majority in this country stand. I want the Optional Clause to be signed; I have pleaded for it for many years past. I have been asked on many platforms if I am in favour of it, and I have always said that I am, but that certain reservations must be imposed. Among those reservations I have always included the one on the Order Paper. The question is not one between arbitration on the one hand and war on the other. I envisage the future very much in the same terms as the Foreign Secretary. After the Covenant and the Kellogg Pact were signed, this country could be at war under two conditions—first, a defensive war, and second, an action in pursuance of the Covenant of the League of Nations. I submit that, in either of these contingencies, certain questions of international law might arise. I do not dispute whether the British view of international law or the American view or the Continental view is the best or the right one, but, when you submit to a court, it is important to be clear of the law by which your case will be judged; and all that we ask is that it should be made clear beyond all argument what that law should be.

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It is not a question of limiting the effect of the Optional Clause. In fact, the reservation imposed by the right hon. Gentleman claiming the right to withdraw a case from the International Court is far more important than this reservation. All that this limitation does is to say that we define the law that is to guide the Court in certain contingencies. I cannot see any danger or risk in that, and, when I am told that it infringes on the Kellogg Pact, I have yet to learn the reason why. The Kellogg Pact makes no difference in maritime law, but it is a document of extreme importance and efficacy. When the right hon. Gentleman, in 1924, persuaded the Assembly of the League to pass the Protocol of Geneva, I strongly supported it, and I was anxious for the Government to ratify it. Now that that time has gone by, I believe that we are better off, and I believe that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that we are better off, with the Kellogg Pact. That Pact is the expression of the Anglo-Saxon mind, while the Protocol of Geneva was the expression of the continental or Latin mind. The world has found in the Kellogg Pact a real step in advance of the Covenant, a real way of taking the world a stage further on the road to peace, and I hope that nothing will be done to overload the Kellogg Pact with detail, and to try and foresee a future which nobody can foretell, but just to say two simple things which the Pact says—first, that no nation will use war as an instrument of national policy, and, second, that all nations that have signed will submit their disputes to arbitration, and leave it there.
I cannot see why a reservation that was right in 1924 is wrong in 1930. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen has a very simple explanation; it is that what the present Foreign Secretary does is right, and that what my right hon. Friend the ex-Foreign Secretary does is wrong. He accused him of living in the last century. I wonder what he will think when he reads that to-morrow morning. I wonder what history will say to a charge of that sort against the author and enforcer of the Treaty of Locarno, and against the Government which adhered to the Kellogg Pact. When the record of my right hon. Friend comes to be scanned by history—I admit that I have not altogether always agreed with
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him—it will be found that that record is a fine one of consistent and earnest work for peace. I have supported the Optional Clause for many years past, and I want to see it signed. I shall vote for the Amendment, because I have always made that reservation in every statement which I have made about the Optional Clause. If I am asked whether I would rather have no Clause at all than the Clause without this sixth reservation, while I should very much regret the absence of it from the other reservations, I would choose the Clause without it, for I believe that it adds one more bulwark to the edifice of peace, and that it will not be quite so dangerous as an hon. and gallant Friend here thinks, for I believe that it is in consonance with the spirit of the Covenant and with the Pact of Paris.
Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL: I support the signing of the Optional Clause, because I believe that it is one more step on the path of enduring and permanent peace, and I believe that, if by chance it was not ratified to-night, it would be a step back to the cause of peace, and would kill the hope of people not in Great Britain alone, but throughout the world. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said that this Clause is implicit in the Kellogg Pact. Of course it is. It is not only implicit in the Kellogg Pact, but in the Preamble of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and, of course, implicit in Article 15 of the Covenant—that on arbitration. In the Preamble, we have the words:
"The High Contracting Parties, in order to promote international co-operation and to achieve international peace and security.…by the firm establishment of the understanding of international law as the actual rule of conduct among Governments."
So the signing of the Optional Clause, whereby it is agreed that all juridical disputes shall be taken to the International Court, is inclusive not only in the Covenant of the League of Nations, but in Article 15 of the Covenant, as well as in the Kellogg Pact. It is the logical development of all that has happened in international work since the War. It has been said, Why is it necessary to sign the Optional Clause when it is possible to take your disputes to the Council of the League of Nations? I do not think it can be too often emphasised—because again and again people have spoken as

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though the Council's decision were final—that unless the Council gives a unanimous verdict on a question there is no decision; and all that the signatories to the League of Nations pledge themselves to do in the event of the Council not being unanimous is to wait three months before going to war. The signing of the Optional Clause is not a final step, but is one step to closing the door on the possibility of war between the nations. We are asking the House to ratify the signing of the Optional Clause, but I hope before long Parliament will be asked to sign the General Act of Arbitration.
Why was there this holding back from signing the Optional Clause by the late Government? I am proud to think that in the history of the past, Britain has led in matters of arbitration. By accepting arbitration in quarrels Britain has, to a certain extent, though only to a small extent, rescued mankind from the haunting fear of war. Great Britain signed a Treaty with America when the feelings between this country and America were bitter indeed. The other day I was reading the letters of an officer of the British Army, written just after the American Declaration of Independence. They show that the feeling in England was very bitter—the Americans were then referred to as "rebels"—but in spite of that bitter feeling Britain signed a great Treaty whereby she pledged herself to take all disputes that arose out of the Declaration of Independence to a court of arbitration. I am proud of the part Britain has played in the past, and I regret that since the War she has held back from leading the great cause of rescuing mankind from the haunting fear of war. It has been assumed that what we are being asked to do might be to our disadvantage, but, economically, continual quarrels and disputes are a great loss. A friend of mine was describing to me the other day the 100 years' dispute between France and England over the Newfoundland fisheries, and the great economic loss in which both nations were involved, until the late Lord Salisbury piloted through Parliament an arbitration Treaty which settled that matter to the comfort and economic gain of both nations.
How can it possibly be said that we are to exclude from arbitration or the
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judgment of the International Court vital interests and things that affect our honour? Does anybody really suppose that so subtle and glorious a thing as honour can be vindicated by force? Does anybody suppose that honour and justice is better secured when a man is the judge in his own case? That is plainly an impossibility. The men who in days gone by resisted the law against duelling were not the men who had the finest sense of honour, I am afraid, but the men who knew themselves to be excellent swordsmen. I feel that the man—or nation—that has the highest sense of honour is the one claiming not to be the judge in his own case, but prepared to stand aside and submit his case to an international and impartial tribunal because of his confidence in the justice of his case. Then it has been said that perhaps we would not be satisfied with the judgment of the Court. That may be granted at once; one is not always satisfied with a judgment in a court of law, but the point is that in the long run greater justice is done by taking international disputes to an impartial tribunal than any nation can claim to achieve if it is left to be the judge in its own disputes.
The hon. and gallant Member for Warwick (Captain Eden), who I am sorry has gone away, spoke as though it would be the same thing if we decided on the method of arbitration after the quarrel had arisen. There is all the difference in the world. The psychology is different. When once a quarrel has arisen passions are aroused and to decide then about arbitration is a dangerous proceeding. The only safe course is to decide in advance the method of arbitration. Things move swiftly when there are quarrels and passions have been excited, and that is the worst time to decide on how to arbitrate. If it is not decided beforehand that any quarrel shall be taken to an impartial tribunal, then when the dispute does arise the stronger Power of the two is put in a position in which it feels that it can insist on a particular method of arbitration as a condition of arbitration. That puts the weaker nation at a grave disadvantage.
Though it may perhaps seem somewhat of an impertinence on the part of one who is so new to the House of Commons as myself, I am profoundly persuaded

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that the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is wholly wrong in believing that the proposal before us will not be a further step forward in the permanent cause of peace. It is not enough to desire peace. One hon. Member opposite said they desired peace. Surely we may almost take it for granted that everybody desires peace; what we have to do is to build up machinery whereby that which we desire shall be made possible. All down history men have desired peace. Napoleon, according to his letters, desired peace, but he never secured it. Slowly, painfully, and with a certain amount of sacrifice, the nations to-day are creating machinery whereby enduring peace will be possible. It has been said that it may be well to arbitrate with some nations but not with others. I hold in my hand the observations of the late Government on the Committee of Arbitration and Security, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) drew attention to a very painful paragraph in those observations. In paragraph 15 the Government say they may be willing to accept obligations towards one State but not willing to accept them towards another. Whether that means that the Government would be prepared to accept arbitration with a powerful nation but not with a weak nation I do not know, but that has an uncomfortable implication, and is contrary to the whole trend of evolutionary thought upon which the nations are attempting to build a new international order.
Then we come to the question of public support. Lord Cushendun said in November, 1927, that to sign the Optional Clause would be to go beyond public opinion, and the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs took the same view. If that were the fact, I should say they were perfectly right in their judgment, because no Government ought to go beyond the nation; but I am convinced that they are wrong in thinking it would be going beyond the wishes of the nation to-day if we were to sign the Optional Clause. A great number of Conservative Members are in favour of the Optional Clause. I have noticed the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) very busy amongst her colleagues on the benches opposite. I hope she is going
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to be effective, and that despite what the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said we are going to carry hon. Members on the benches opposite into our Lobby, so that it can go forth to the world that there was a unanimous vote for signing the Optional Clause. I would remind the Noble Lady that she still has probably two hours in which to work amongst her colleagues. Many Conservatives are in favour of signing; all Liberals, I think I am right in saying; and all Labour Members. Surely, then, it cannot be said that public opinion is not in favour of signing. Even in the days when the question of giving the franchise to women was being debated I was never one of the foolish people who said we must not give votes to women because they would all vote one way, and that if they were opposed to the men then the poor men would be outvoted. Women do not vote as a rule together. I find it difficult to get even a committee of a dozen women to agree, or men either; still less is it easy to get all the women of the nation to agree.
Viscountess ASTOR: I can get a dozen to agree.
Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL: Yet it does happen, but not very often, that there are questions upon which women in the country are in the main united. I could refer to one or two instances in history where women were united on a political issue, if I did not want to detain the House, but I can assure hon. Members that on this particular point the women of the country are united. To say that the Optional Clause was too technical to be explained to the electorate and too difficult for women to understand is quite beside the mark. Women throughout the country had the Optional Clause explained to them. In 1926, 28 national organisations of women arranged a pilgrimage throughout the country and held more than 1,000 meetings on the subject, and Mrs. Alfred Lyttelton, who as everybody knows is a distinguished member of the Conservative party, said in an interview after the last General Election that one of the reasons for the defeat of the Conservatives was that the women of the country were persuaded that the Conservative Government had not been keen enough on securing peace. She said that in her opinion the impression the women of the country had

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received was a false one, but she stated, as one of the reasons for the defeat of the Conservatives, the belief on the part of the women that the Conservative Government had not led, as it ought to have led, in securing and seeking peace.
Viscountess ASTOR: They were misrepresented.
Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL: I am persuaded that the signing of the Optional Clause will close another avenue that makes war possible, and will provide another piece of the machine which will make permanent peace possible. Hon. Members may have read the letters of Lord Disraeli, and will remember that in one of them he cried out almost in despair "War is so much easier than peace." Why is it that war is easier than peace? Because the machinery for war is at hand. You have only to say a word, almost only to press a button, and the great machinery of war is put into movement, and when once it is in movement it is very difficult to stop. Now we are creating machinery to be put into movement to secure not war but permanent peace, and the signing of the Optional Clause is an important part of that machinery, not yet perfect, but soon, I hope, to be perfected. Well do I know that machinery alone is not enough. There must be the spirit for peace behind it. That spirit is already in the nation, but desire is not enough and everybody desires peace. A young man once wept over a city, not because the Romans would destroy it, as they had done many before and would do again; but because his nation, while longing for peace, did not study the things that belong to peace. I sometimes wonder if the deep desire for peace may not be even a danger, lest people think the desire alone will secure it.
We must study the things that make for peace, and which create the machinery that makes for peace. I am persuaded that the Optional Clause is one step further towards the goal of permanent peace. I sometimes seem to see a neck and neck race between reaction—unintentional reaction but nevertheless reaction—ending in a final catastrophe, and education ending in the permanent peace of the nation, yet I do not really doubt which will win. By our achievements since 1918 and by yet fur-
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ther efforts we are literally entering into a new era in which war will find no place. The signing of the Optional Clause is another step in that direction. I believe that the children of the next generation will read no story, no tragedy, no epic poem, with deeper wonder or deeper feeling than the story of how the men and women of this generation, by moral couarge, infinite patience, and by a readiness to take risks built up a new social order which gave a deathblow to the horror of war.
Mr. MANDER: I would like to remind hon. Members that 379 Members of this House at the last Election were pledged to support the Optional Clause and that total included a substantial number of Conservative Members. I feel certain that those hon. Members are going to honour their pledges to-night by voting for the ratification of this Clause. Some of the most distinguished Conservatives in the country are behind the Government on this question. In this respect I only need to mention Lord Cecil, a man of world-wide reputation on this subject, who, although he left the late Government in disgust, will always remain a great Conservative. I am glad to be able to speak in support of the ratification of this Clause to-night, because it so happens that I was present in the famous glass council room of the Secretariat at Geneva when the Foreign Secretary, amid all the publicity of the world, signed the Optional Clause on behalf of this country on the 19th of September last. While the Government in some matters nearer home have been timid and disappointing. I do say that their foreign policy has been admirable, and I desire to give their my wholehearted support so long as they continue to carry out a foreign policy which is so entirely in the interests of the country. I hope that the Foreign Secretary is not going to stop merely with the signature of the Optional Clause. I think the right hon. Gentleman has already indicated that in due course he will sign the General Act of Arbitration, Conciliation and Judicial Settlement so that we shall have an all-in warproof treaty which will make it impossible, under any circumstances, for disputes of a war-like character to break out.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) seemed to be labouring under a mis-

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apprehension on this point, because he said it was agreed by the present Foreign Secretary and all parties that there were some things which could not be submitted to arbitration. I think that the right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong there. My view is that the vast majority of the Members of this House would admit no limit, and no exception whatever to the settlement of disputes by judicial means or by arbitration. I think the late Foreign Secretary is quite mistaken in assuming that he has many sympathisers in this House on that point.
I particularly want to congratulate the Government upon having shown British leadership in regard to this question. I believe it is because of the attitude which has been taken up by the present Government, and solely on that account, that, in addition to our own signature, 14 other countries, including Italy and France, have signed the Optional Clause; and, of the 14 countries who have not yet signed, I believe that quite a number of them will be persuaded to do so. We are the natural leaders of the League of Nations, and, if we continue to lead, other countries of the world will be glad to follow. Those who attended recent meetings of the Assembly must have felt the humiliating position in which we were when they saw this country lagging behind in regard to the affairs of the League instead of giving a lead to the world. I recognise that the late Foreign Secretary has rendered great service to the League, and by far the greatest service he rendered was that he attended personally every meeting of the Assembly and the Council while he was Foreign Secretary, except when he was not in a good state of health. In that way, the right hon. Gentleman set an example which I hone will be followed by the Foreign Ministers of this country in the future. I regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham did not have the courage and get the credit for bringing off this fine stroke of policy instead of acting in the timid way which he did. The right hon. Gentleman adopted a policy of safety first, and he lost a chance of doing something which would have been a great credit to himself and his party. Personally, I do not care which party gets the credit for progressing in these matters so long as progress is made.
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It may be said that we are taking certain risks in signing the Optional Clause, but surely you cannot do anything in life any day of the week without taking risks. You cannot cross a London street, without taking some risk, but that is no reason why you should stand shivering on the pavement for ever. In taking the slight risk which we have taken in signing the Optional Clause we are overcoming the infinitely greater risk of, leaving so many questions to drag along which might end in the arbitrament of war in the final issue. The late Foreign Secretary was very much concerned when he pointed out that in the ultimate issue, questions taken to the Council under our reservation might go to the Permanent Court. I think they ought to go to the Permanent Court, and, if the Council is not able by means of conciliation under their procedure to come to a settlement, they will go to that Court as a matter of right, and the Permanent Court may become an international prize court. I think that should be so, and in that respect I think the late Foreign Secretary is mistaken.
I should like to deal with certain objections which have been raised. It has been said that a decision might be given by the court which might be regarded as unjust. May I remind hon. Members that no case is ever taken into any court without at least one side thinking that the decision has been improperly given. I think the best answer to that argument is to read the remarks made by Senator Dandurand, the Canadian representative, who said at the 8th Assembly:
"We have not been fortunate as regards the awards of courts of arbitration to which we submitted questions affecting our territories. In East and West alike we have lost immense tracts. We did not swallow that pill without pulling a wry face, but Canada notwithstanding remains a firm supporter of the principle of arbitration, and we still think it is preferable to run the risk of an injustice than to have recourse to arms, for even an unfavourable settlement is better than a victorious war."
Those eloquent words give a complete answer to an argument of that kind. The late Under-Secretary suggested that a decision might be given to which the people of this country would object so much that we should not follow it out. I venture to say that that is a libel on the people of England, and it is most unfair to say that. I am sure that the people

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of this country are far more advanced than was shown by the attitude of the late Government on this question, and we desire nothing better than to base our policy on justice and justice alone and take the consequences whatever they may be. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham said that it is desirable to keep our hands free in dealing with any dispute so that we may adopt whatever procedure seems most suitable. That really means that if as a great Power we believed that we could do better by going to the Council we should go there instead of to the Court and use our power to get a settlement to which we should not be entitled on the strict basis of justice. I think that is an unworthy reason which cannot be defended on any understanding of the comity of Nations.
It is said that this country always goes to arbitration, and that we intend to go in that direction in the future. The people of this country may know that, but other countries do not, and therefore it is essential that other nations should know what we mean in the words of the Clause and that they should understand that ipso facto without any special agreement, any dispute of a certain kind that arose would go without any question or any consideration or debate to the Court for judicial settlement. This is a concession which ought to be made to the logic of Continental nations and in that way we can do a great deal to satisfy other countries that we really do know what we mean to do.
8.0 p.m.
There is one last objection that I would like to mention. It is sometimes urged that international law is uncertain, that we do not quite know what decisions might be given, and that, therefore, we are taking great risks, and should wait until the whole thing is codified. As regards maritime law that may be so, but that is dealt with on the lines that have already been discussed to-night. As regards international law other than maritime law, I venture to say that there is no such great uncertainty. At any rate, there is no more uncertainty than there was in English law in the reign of Edward II, and, on the basis of the English law as it then was, has been built up that
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magnificent structure of the English common law through succeeding centuries, entirely as the result of the decisions of the Judges of this country I believe, therefore, that, if we give the eminent lawyers who are the judges of the Permanent Court their chance, they will in the same way, by their own judicial decisions, build up a world common law that will be worthy of the splendid example of the common law oil this country.
Hon. Members on the Conservative benches have sometimes attacked the Government, or have endeavoured to attack them, because they were not uniting the Empire, because they were acting independently in some respects. I think that that comes very strangely from a Government which concluded the Locarno Treaty without the concurrence of a single Dominion. Not one of the Dominions has ever given its assent to the Locarno Treaty. I think the late Government were quite right in doing that, but it really does not lie in their mouths to come here and attack the present Government, who have been infinitely more successful than they were, for not getting on every occasion the complete assent of all the Dominions. In this case they have been very successful. The whole Empire is united.
What would be the effect of carrying this Amendment or defeating this Motion to-night? It could only be to split and divide the Empire. Is that what hon. Members want? Let it not be imagined for a moment that, if this Motion be rejected to-night, Canada and the Irish Free State and the Union of South Africa are going to be held back, to say nothing of the others. Some of them have been pressing for years for this, and have only been held back by the reactionary and obstructive policy of the late Government. If the Conservative party were to do what some of them want to do, and throw out this Motion to-night, it Mould be one of the worst pieces of work in dividing the British Empire that hat been done, at any rate, since they passed the Treaty of Locarno.
It is difficult to speak to night, or to think of what we are doing to-night, without a feeling of emotion. We are by our action taking away from the field of possible violence a very large number of disputes, and bringing them into the calm

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atmosphere of the judicial bench or the council chamber. More than that, I believe there are children growing up in different parts of the world to-day who, as the result of our action to-night, are going to live long and useful lives to their very end, instead of being cut off in the flower of their youth as the present generation have been. Therefore, I most heartily support the Motion.
Lady CYNTHIA MOSLEY: It has been a source of the greatest gratification to all of us on these benches that one of the very first steps that this Government took was to signify its intention of signing the Optional Clause; and they not only said that they would sign it, but, at the first opportunity, they did sign it. Of course, that Clause ought to have been signed years ago, and the various excuses which have been trumped up by the Conservative Government to mitigate their failure to sign it will not bear looking into at all. The trouble is, as the Foreign Secretary said in his opening speech, that the attitude of mind which has dominated the Conservative Government during the last five years has been that there were certain interests and points of honour which one could not submit to arbitration and, unfortunately, the late Foreign Secretary gave voice to those very sentiments in a speech at Birmingham on the 6th April, 1925, when he said that there were some questions so vital to the honour, or the necessities, or even the life of the nation, that they could not consent to refer them to arbitration. What question in the world is so vital to one's honour that one could not submit it to an impartial international tribunal, and what in the world is more vital than the preservation of peace in the world at the present time?
They have tried to justify their inaction by a variety of other reasons, but, as I have said, those reasons do not really bear looking into. The fact remains that for five years they have blocked every suggested method of extending our arbitral obligations; and this country, which, as other speakers in the Debate have already pointed out, has been in the past the pioneer in regard to arbitration, which has very often led the way, has been for the last five years one of the chief obstacles in the way of a further and very widely desired advance in the direction of yet more arbitration. There
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is one excuse put forward by the Conservative Government which has already been touched upon, but I want to say something more about it, because it seems to me to be very important. It was the excuse that Parliament could not be relied upon to honour its bond if an arbitral award went against us. I have here the actual words of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the last Government on that subject. He said:
"No constitutional Government can guarantee that the necessary legislation that would arise in the case of an unfavourable arbitral award would be passed by Parliament."
Why, I should like to ask, would it not be passed by Parliament? The implication was—and that implication was further developed in the 1928 Note to Geneva—that public opinion would not be behind them if they did pass it. It was argued in that Note that one could not trust public opinion to be behind them, that public opinion might not tolerate such a commitment, that the people of this country might be unwilling to submit themselves to the judgment of this International Court, and that they must keep a free hand and must keep and reserve to themselves the right to go to war if and how they wanted to do so.
Whoever heard such an argument as that at a time like this? If there is one thing about which the people of this country are solid, it is the question of peace, and never, not only at this time, but at any time in history, have the people, the rank and file, of any great country wanted to go to war when their Government has not wanted to go to war. Who has ever known of any occasion when the great masses of the people clamoured to be allowed to fight, and those in authority said, "Oh, no, please don't; we don't want you to; we want to keep the peace?" Of course, it is absurd to suggest such a thing; the case is exactly the opposite. Generally speaking, it is the Government and those in authority who, by one means and another, have to get the people up to the desired scratch, and very often the means they employ are most reprehensible. At the present moment, more than ever before, the determination for peace is uppermost in people's minds, and, therefore, it was a very poor reason to put forward,

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and a very bad excuse, to try to pretend that public opinion might not be behind any awards given by an International Court of Justice if those awards were against us.
What are the facts of the case? We signed the Optional Clause on the 19th September. Was there a great outcry? No, it was one of the most popular things that we have ever done; there was widespread satisfaction throughout this country, and universal approbation; and the interesting fact is before us this evening that even His Majesty's Opposition, when they tabled their Amendments, decided that it would not be politic to table an out-and-out Resolution against our signing this Clause, but timidly put down a reservation which is amply covered by the formula of acceptance that we have already adopted. The Conservative estimate of public opinion in this country is, to our mind, wholly wrong; it could hardly be more wrong. The people of this country have a much better understanding of other peoples, a much stronger respect for law, a much clearer recognition of the insecurity of lawlessness, and a much finer sense of what is right and wrong, than the late Government seem to give them credit for. The mere fact that we are on this side of the House at the present time, and hon. Members opposite are over there and are not the Government of this country, shows the intense desire that there is that something more should be done about peace, and that steps should be taken to substitute law for war at the very earliest possible moment.
There was another excuse that the late Conservative Government advanced. It has been fully dealt with this afternoon, and, therefore, I shall not have much more to say about it. It was the excuse about the Dominions. I would only like to draw the attention of the House to this one point, that, away back in 1926, at the Imperial Conference, when the Resolution was tabled putting off the whole question until further discussion had taken place, the Conservative Government at that moment, if they had really wanted to do so, could well have persuaded the Dominions to come in with them. Canada, Ireland, and South Africa were perfectly willing; the only two Dominions about whom there was
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the slightest doubt were Australia and New Zealand, and they said quite openly that they would be satisfied to leave all questions of foreign policy in the hands of His Majesty's Government. Even then, in 1926, some 19 or 20 other nations had already signed the Clause, and still further members of the League had signified their intention of signing directly we signed.
This whole question of the Dominions, the whole contention that it would split the Dominions, has been proved this afternoon to be groundless by the facts of the case, and I need not repeat what has already been said. Every one of the Dominions has signed the Clause, and has accepted fully the position that we took up; and not only have the Dominions signed, but a great many other countries that had said they would sign have now done so. There was quite an amusing paragraph in the "Economist" of the 14th September last year about that question. It said:
"Everyone had realised that the acceptance by Great Britain of the principle of compulsory arbitration in justiciable disputes would have far-reaching effects, but it all seems almost too easy now, from the way in which one delegate after another has come up to the Tribune to declare the intention of his Government to accept the obligation of this famous Clause."
I am glad to say that it is the rule rather than the exception for members of the League to be subject to this Clause.
The Conservatives advance a third reason for not signing this Clause. I wish the Conservatives were as good at thinking of reasons for doing things as of reasons for not doing things. If they did that, they would be a better party than they are. But they argue that, as long as we were willing to submit all our disputes to the Council of the League, it was as good as submitting them to the Court of International Arbitration. Of course, that is not so. I will not go in detail into all the differences, hut the main difference is that, in all disputes before the International Court of Justice, the award is binding on both parties. In the case of a dispute submitted to the Council of the League, if the decision is not unanimous, the parties are left free to go to war at the end of three months.
It seems to us that the reluctance of Great Britain to submit herself to a court

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of international justice has tended to make foreigners think our loyalty to the League would never stand the strain when our own interests were involved. That was a very unfortunate impression to create, but it was a very obvious one when the reluctance existed. Now I am delighted to feel that that reluctance has gone, and, therefore, it is impossible for that suspicion to exist any longer. I am sure it has by now been dissipated. But still I think the fact that we have signed this Optional Clause will do a very great deal to make foreigners feel that we really mean what we say in all the fine sentiments that we express, and I am certain our action has added to the security of nations and shown that we mean business and are out to substitute law for war. I hope that Members of the House, or anyone else who feels like it, will take courage from the knowledge that, after all, no dispute that has ever been submitted to arbitration has resulted in war, and no case ever submitted to arbitration would have been better replaced by war, and from the growing recognition that not one of the wars of recent years has served our interests better than a reasonable award would have done. I found a very remarkable paragraph from a speech by a very great man the other day, the late Earl of Oxford, speaking at Southend in 1925:
"The only way in which we could attain anything in the nature of practical international brotherhood was to submit all disputes and differences, whenever they arose, and whether they affected points of honour or points of so-called vital interest, to the fair arbitrament of a judicial tribunal and to abide by its result."
It seems to me a most extraordinary thing that people should be so scared of arbitration. Why should not matters of vital importance be decided by unbiased and intelligent people in a calm and collected atmosphere, instead of by blood and bombs, underground or up in the air? It passes my comprehension that there should be any division of opinion on the matter. People talk about the hazards of arbitration. Are the hazards of arbitration so great? On one thing we are all surely united, that they are nothing like as great as the hazards of war, and nothing could be so frightful as the possibility of another war.
It seems to me that this generation that knows what war is, that was occupied with the last war and took part
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in it, must be the generation which finally establishes peace, and a permanent peace. Ten years have gone by since the War—ten years before men of authority have been found with sufficient nerve and courage to take the elementary step of pledging our word, instead of behaving like animals in the jungle, that we will behave like civilised human beings. We should conduct our international affairs like we conduct our home affairs. We should go to law about them instead of fighting it out between man and man. That step, thank goodness, has been taken. That risk, if there is a risk attending it, has been taken, and I am glad of it, but I hope this Government is going to take more risks in the same direction. We want them to take a lot more risks in the winning of peace so as to avert the greatest risk of all—another war. After all, nothing can be as bad as that.
In the last four years I have gone about from one end of the country to the other, speaking at meetings, and it is impossible to over-estimate the strength of the feeling among the men and the women in favour of building up this peace. It is our task. The generation that knows war ought to do it. It is as much the task of the women as of the men to do something about this, perhaps more. Anyway we mind about it more than it is possible to tell. I hope that the Government will have an overwhelming vote to-night, but I hope that they will not be satisfied to rest there. I hope that they will go on with the great work. Arbitration is a great thing, but we want a lot more in the establishment of peace. We want to -get a feeling of security among nations, and, until you get a wide measure of disarmament, you are not going to get a real feeling of security. That, I suppose, is outside the scope of the Debate, so all I can say is that I hope the Government will get a very substantial majority and that not only the House but the country will back them up in the great efforts that they are making to establish peace and law instead of war and force.
Commander SOUTHBY: I rise to intervene in this Debate, not in order to go through the whole question of the effects of our signature of the Optional Clause, but to submit to the House the effect, as I see it, that that signature will have on the exercise of our age-long belligerent

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rights at sea. No one can doubt the sincerity of the Noble Lady who has just spoken, in everything she has said. No one can doubt the sincerity of the House as a whole when it expresses its wish that war should be no more. As far as the signature of the Optional Clause is concerned, there is very little difference between the two sides of the House, but on both sides it is recognised that there must be some reservation. The only difference appears to me to be that we want another reservation to go in, because although we are no less sincere than the party opposite, we feel that it is a duty to the Empire, as we see our duty, to submit that there should be one further reservation, and that is the question of our naval belligerent rights. It is a great pity that the term "freedom of the seas" has got into public minds and public mouths, because many people who have neither the leisure nor the wish really to examine the question do not understand what is meant by it. It is not a question of some form of tyranny being exercised upon people who wish to use the seas both in peace and in war, because in peace time the whole of the seas are just as free as, nay even freer than, the land, and that freedom is due, in a large measure, to the beneficent work done in the past by the great maritime nations of the world. In wartime quite a different situation arises. Then the question of the freedom of the seas may be, and is, to an island Empire like ours, entirely vital.
I think this House might well stop to consider what it is that we are doing if we sign this Clause without making a reservation regarding our belligerent rights at sea. I do not think that anyone denies that we are now standing at the parting of the ways. What we do tonight may have an effect in years to come which none of us can foresee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I know hon. Members opposite are sincere, but they will perhaps allow that I may be just as sincere in my wish to build rightly for those who come after as they are. I hope and pray that the day when war shall be no more will come. No one could be more sincere in that than I am. But it is our duty to those who will come after us to make perfectly certain that, if another war comes, they may not be in such a position that they are bound to go completely under. In peace-time
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the seas are free. It is true that the United States, for reasons best known to themselves, infringe the old idea of the three-mile limit and the liberty of action of those industrious people who wish to trade in spirituous liquors. It is true that the Russians have endeavoured to enforce a 12-mile limit as against our fishermen, but, in the main, the seas are entirely free, and I do not think anyone will deny that that is so. When you come to war, a different situation arises and it is vital to an island empire that there should be some measure of control. It is right that we should examine exactly what will happen if the question of belligerent rights is to be submitted to an international tribunal. I believe I am right in saying that the Prime Minister has always said that the signature to the Optional Clause should be subject to reservations. What does the Clause do? If we sign it, it means that any question involving our belligerent rights must be submitted to an international court. It has been made quite clear in all the speeches to which we have listened that in the end it is practically certain that every question of belligerent rights at sea will ultimately get to this international court. The hon. Lady says, "Hear, hear!" It is perfectly true. But let us consider the fact that that court is going to be composed of people who hold the Continental view as regards the law of war at sea in contradistinction to the view held by this country, which, I would remind the House, has in fact always been the view held by the United States of America whenever she has herself been at war. It is even possible that should we be at war—God forbid that that should be so—our conduct at sea would be submitted to a court upon which would sit representatives of the country with which we were at war. The Continental school has always been hostile to the traditional view of Great Britain as to sea warfare.
It is not the first time that an endeavour has been made to form an international prize court. In 1907 and in 1909 we had similar attempts. On each occasion, I would submit with great respect to the House that behind them there was grave suspicion that the wish was to tie the hands of the British Empire. In 1907, at the Hague Convention various agreements were come to. I will only mention two: one, the inviolability

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of hospital ships, and the other, that ships should be boarded before anything could be done as regards their capture. Both those agreements were torn up by Germany the moment she was involved in the maelstrom of war. She treated them like scraps of paper and, as far as the agreements were concerned, they were of no benefit whatever to us. It might be well for the House to remember what were the instructions of the United States delegates to that same Hague Convention. The instructions of the Chief Secretary for Foreign Affairs in the United States were as follows:
"Considering the temptation to which men and nations may be exposed in time of conflict, it is doubtful if an international agreement to this end would prove effective."
It is true that the particular thing which they were discussing was the use of gas. In 1909 came the Declaration of London. Does anybody in this House deny that we were thankful at the end of the War that we had never ratified the Declaration of London? If there is one thing above all others concerning the War which is certain, it is that we started the War as far as our Navy, our first line of defence, was concerned with one arm tied behind our back. It is also true that the War, with all its horrors and hideous expenditure of blood and treasure, was unduly prolonged simply and solely by the action of those who endeavoured at the Declaration of London to tie our hands. In the end, Germany was beaten largely because she could not get any copper, and yet at the Declaration of London copper was put upon the list as being entirely non-contraband. Even aeroplanes were only partially contraband, and rubber, which everyone knows is one of the most indispensable articles in any warlike operation nowadays, was put entirely on the free list. Nowadays, it is not merely armies and navies which go to war; it is whole nations. I submit that it is neither humane nor common sense to impede the use of any weapon which will make war shorter if it should come. I will quote the words of a great writer, Admiral Mahan, who has been quoted already in this Debate from the opposite side of the House. He said of the War of American Secession that
"the alternative to blockade, was the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of lives and money."
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If we happen to be involved in another war is it reasonable to suppose that if our enemy was perfectly certain that by attacking our trade he could beat us with one decisive stroke he would hesitate for one single moment to take that action t Are the Government prepared to trust the whole of our sea-borne trade, food and everything that it entails, to the action of some neutral? How can any belligerent States guarantee the freedom of sea-borne communications any more than two contending armies could guarantee each others communications? How can any Court guarantee, if you are a belligerent, sea communication or freedom of land communication? Nobody has denied in any speech to-day that there is still—and I am sorry to say it—the possibility of war being used as the last resort. I hope, as everybody in this House hopes, that every means will be taken on every possible occasion to use arbitration such as is visualised at The Hague and at Geneva instead of the arbitrament of war. I hold that view most strongly, but if you have to go to war there are two ways by which you can subdue your enemy. One is by actual physical assault, and the other by economic pressure. I ask hon. Members; Where is the ethical distinction between the two. Why is it moral or right, if you are going to make rules at all, to blow your enemy to pieces, but wrong to prevent food coming into his country? Those who advocate the free passage of food-ships, to my mind, are most illogical. You guarantee immunity to a foodship passing across the ocean, but you do not guarantee the immunity of that food-ship when it arrives in your harbour. It is to be safe at sea, but it may be bombed in harbour, and, in addition, the food, after being put in the stores, is also subject to bombing. Where is the logical argument in that? Why should you protect food going across the ocean if you do not protect it when it gets to the other end?
The only country which has ever been really consistent in the exercise of its belligerent rights has been Great Britain. Whenever the United States has been at war, their view has been the same as our view. Indeed, it is common knowledge that in the late War they wished to go much further in the exercise of those rights than we did. I would remind

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the House that in the original Declaration of Paris, in 1856, when we were anxious to sign the Declaration, the United States refused to sign, because they wished to be allowed to use privateers, the use of which the Declaration abolished. I have referred to the Declaration of London. Four times was that great American, Mr. Walter Hynes Page, then Ambassador to this country, instructed to press the then Foreign Secretary belonging to the party below the Gangway unconditionally to ratify the Declaration of London, and four times our Foreign Secretary refused. This is what Mr. Page said in writing to Colonel House:
"The case is plain enough to me. England is going to keep war materials out of Germany as far as she can. We would do it in her place. Germany would do it. Any nation would do it"—
And he goes on to say that,
"if England be let alone, she will do it in a way to give us the very least annoyance possible."
He pointed out that we had not then confiscated a single American cargo even of unconditional contraband. We stopped some and bought some for ourselves, but did not confiscate one single cargo. And then, says Mr. Page:
"What do we, the United States do? We set out on a comprehensive plan to regulate the naval warfare of the world, and we up and ask them all, 'Now boys, all be good, damn you, and agree to the Declaration of London.'"
Further, this great American says—and what he says should be read and understood by every Member of the House:
"If we let England go on, we can throw the whole responsibility on her, and reserve all our rights under international law and usage, and claim damages, and get them, for every act of injury, if acts of injury occur, and we can keep her friendship and goodwill."
So strongly did he see the justice of our position, our age-long attitude as regards belligerent rights, that he definitely said:
"If Lansing again brings up the Declaration of London, after four flat and reasonable rejections, I shall resign. I will not he the instrument of a perfectly gratuitous and ineffective insult to this patient and fair and friendly Government who, in my time, have done us many kindnesses and never an injury, and who sincerely try now to meet our wishes."
It is fair to look back at history and see what these same maritime rights, which
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it is suggested should to-night be given up by this House, have done. Blockade broke the power of Napoleon, who set out for the domination of the whole world. On this point I should like to make one more quotation. Lord Aberdeen, when peace was being discussed at the end of the Napoleonic wars, warned the French:
"against supposing that any possible consideration would ever induce Great Britain to abandon a particle of what she felt to belong to her maritime code, from which in no case could she ever recede."
To-night, we are being asked to recede in a very grave degree from that same maritime code. Our maritime rights have never been used except in the interests of the peace and liberty of the world. Again, I would quote from Mr. Page, a great American, a great patriot and a great lover of this country. He said:
"So far as ensuring peace is concerned, the biggest factor in the world is the British Fleet."
Shorn of its age-long belligerent rights, properly used, fairly used, justly used, that same British Fleet as an instrument for keeping the peace and maintaining the peace of the world, which we all wish to see kept, is absolutely useless. If this House ratifies the signature of the Optional Clause, without the reservation to us of our naval belligerent rights, it will be subscribing to a similar proposal to that characterised by Lord Nelson in another place, in 1801, as:
"A monstrous proposition, contrary to the laws of nations and injurious to this country's maritime interests."
The Government of this country, no matter from what party it is drawn, is responsible for the lives, liberties and well-being of the people of the British Empire. It is the guardian of their safety, and if this Government ratifies this Optional Clause, without the reasonable reservation of what is absolutely vital to us, I submit that it will be betraying its trust as no other Government in the history of the whole British Empire has ever betrayed its trust. For these reasons, I support the Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend.
Mr. NOEL BAKER: The speeches which have been made from the benches opposite have appeared to us on this side to be rather arguments against the acceptance of the Optional Clause as a whole, than in favour of the Amendment

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which has been proposed. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] At least, a number of them have been of that character, and since our policy is the acceptance of the Optional Clause it is of importance that the arguments that have been used should be answered. I want, within the limits of my powers, to answer some of the contentions put forward by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) and the hon. and gallant Member for Warwick and Leamington (Captain Eden). The late Foreign Secretary took great exception to what was said by the Foreign Secretary when he argued that the acceptance of the Optional Clause was a logical consequence as our signature of the Pact of Paris. He said that that was as good as saying that the signature of the United States was insincere. With respect, I do not think that that contention can be seriously maintained. I remember very well a speech made by the American Secretary of State, last April, when the Kellogg Pact came into force, that the next step which his Government must take would be to see what it could do to organise machinery for the settlement of international disputes.
That is obviously a duty which devolves upon those who signed the Pact of Paris. The United States are doing it in one way, because they are not members of the League. They have begun by accepting an all-in and general treaty of arbitration drawn up by the American Union. We do it in another way, because we are members of the League. We say that it would be fantastic to start providing new machinery for the settlement of international disputes, when we have the machinery of the Permanent Court already there. We say that it would be fantastic to make new treaties to impose the obligation to go to the court when, in fact, we have the Optional Clause. That is all that the Foreign Secretary contended, and it is supported by a remark made in the note which the British Government sent to Geneva in 1928, to the Committee on Arbitration and Security, to the effect that in respect to justiciable disputes it was desirable that such disputes should be dealt with by the Permanent Court rather than other machinery. Therefore, the argument against the Foreign Secretary does not hold water.
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I think the same is true of what the right hon. Member for West Birmingham said about the speech of the Foreign Secretary when he complained that in respect of an important matter there was a divergence between the White Paper and the speech which the Foreign Secretary had made. The divergence which the right hon. Gentleman thought he detected was that in the White Paper we said in the last paragraph of our Declaration that we can withdraw a dispute from the Court by sending it to the Council instead, whereas in his speech the Foreign Secretary made it plain that we could only suspend the jurisdiction of the Court. With due respect, I would suggest that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham has not examined the White Paper with the care it deserves. If he had done so and had looked at Page 6, he would have found there an explanation in the last paragraph of our Declaration. He would have found there these words:
"At the end of the formula comes a proviso which enables disputes to be referred to the Council of the League before they are dealt with by the Court.…This formula places the United Kingdom in much the same position as a State which has agreed to a Treaty of arbitration and conciliation poviding for the reference of all disputes to a conciliation commission before they are submitted to judicial settlement."
That is plain. The purpose of the proviso is, that with respect to any dispute an attempt should be made in the first place through the highly successful machinery of the Council of the League, machinery which has been highly successful up to the present time, to secure a settlement by agreement. If that attempt to get a settlement by agreement should fail, the procedure of law is to go forward.
I come to other arguments used by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham and the hon. and gallant Member for Warwick and Leamington. They said that there was no great importance in the Optional Clause, because we have always been in favour of arbitration, we have always wanted arbitration, we have accepted the Covenant of the League, it is in accordance with the spirit of the Covenant that we should go to arbitration, and by signing the Optional Clause we agree to go to one particular tribunal instead of to another. With great deference, I would suggest that there is

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all the difference in the world between saying, under the Covenant, that you will either go to arbitration or to the Council, and that if the Council make a recommendation you may accept it or not, and agreeing with other nations in case of dispute to go to a court of law, and whatever verdict that court of law delivers you will carry it out in full faith. I say further, that the more substance there is in their argument, the truer it is, in fact, that the British people do desire on every occasion when opportunity arises to go to arbitration, then the more foolish it is not to accept the obligations of the Optional Clause. If it is true that when the point arises we really do desire to go to arbitration, then surely it is emphatically and overwhelmingly true that it is in the British interests to accept the obligation to go to arbitration in order that we may oblige the other party to do the same even if it is reluctant to do so.
I come now to the arguments used rather freely to-night, and also in the past by hon. and right hon. Members opposite, which are very dangerous, and which have done a great deal of harm. I mean the arguments which were developed to-night by the hon. and gallant Member for Warwick and Leamington (Captain Eden) when he said—as was also said by a distinguished ex-Lord Chancellor, Lord Hailsham—that international law is an indeterminate thing; that it is very vague, that you are never sure what it contains, that you will never be sure what it means and that there is, in fact, a vagueness about it which attaches to no other accepted legal system. They have done a great harm, because they have led people into believing that international law is vaguer than any other system of law and so have undermined the authority of international law. In undermining the authority of international law they have undermined the authority of the verdicts which, on the basis of international law, the Permanent Court must give. It is because I believe that argument cannot be sustained on any grounds of law that I desire, briefly, to offer some observations against it.
When they put forward this point hon. Members opposite, and some lawyers outside, always advance the illustration of
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the cleavage between Anglo-Saxon and Continental schools of thought, but before I deal with that question let me first of all deal with some of the arguments on the general point. I say with the utmost confidence, because it has been my professional duty to study this matter for many years, that no authority on international law in the world would accept the statement with regard to the vagueness of international law. In recent times, even in the last year or two, men of eminent authority on international law in this country have express y repudiated that contention. There is Lord Philli-more and Sir Frederick Pollock, one of the greatest living British publicists on legal matters, Lord Buckmaster and Lord Beading. Even if it was true before 1914 it must be incomparably less true to-day because of the greater precision and development which the Covenant of the League and the Conventions attached to the League have made.
If you will look at the facts of practice you will find that there is absolutely no support of any kind for this contention. The Foreign Office month after month and year after year settles hundreds of cases out of hand on the rules of international law; and they have no trouble. The Arbitration Courts have settled cases by the hundred, and they have no trouble. The Permanent Court itself, in the few years it has been in existence, has settled over 30 cases, and in only one case, the Lotus, can it be said there was the slightest doubt about the rules of international law, and in that case I know of no one who has any knowledge of international law who would suggest that it should not have gone to the Court. It shows how little practical men of the world fear the vagueness of international law that no less than 39 other Governments besides ourselves have signed the Optional Clause.
If hon. Members opposite carry this argument to its logical conclusion, they will say not that we cannot accept the Optional Clause this year, but that we cannot accept it in this generation, or perhaps in the next. They say that we cannot accept the Optional Clause until there has been a complete codification of international law, and that is a process, as anyone knows, which cannot be done in less than one and probably two

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generations. I do not think anybody in this House seriously desires that the nations of the world should go in for a systematic codification of international law before they accept the compulsory jurisdiction of the court. We have always said in this country that codification is a bad plan for the development of a system of law and that it is far better to develop the law by building on the basis of existing rules and the construction of the Courts in the verdicts they give. The argument has been used that the international court in developing international law is the strongest reason in favour of the acceptance of the Optional Clause by two eminent authorities. The first is Sir F. Pollock, and the other no less a person than Mr. Stimson, who, in explaining the adherence of the United States to the Statutes of the Permanent Court, urged as the strongest reason for doing so that it was because the court would be able to develop international law by the judgments it would give.
Therefore, I say that, so far as the vagueness of international law is concerned, we may accept with every confidence the words of a great Lord Chief Justice of this country, Lord Reading, when he said that if we were to wait to settle every item and detail about the rules of international law before we accept the Optional Clause we should never advance a single step. He also remarked that lawyers often disagreed in the courts of our own country after centuries of procedure and judicial intrepretation, and he concluded by saying that he really could not think it was a serious argument. I submit that that is true, and it is equally true that it is not a serious argument to say that there is a divergence between Anglo-Saxon and Continental international law. I have here a private letter from an eminent British authority on the Continent who has been consulting with Continental lawyers for the last 10 years, and he says that on no question with which he has had to deal has any serious divergence of this kind arisen. Lord Finlay, on another occasion, said that in no case with which he had to deal on the Permanent Court had there been this cleavage between Anglo-Saxon and Continental schools of thought.
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As a matter of fact, the only examples of this so-called divergence of cleavage which are ever produced relate to two questions. One to the rules of evidence used before the Permanent Court, and surely it is not quite certain that the rules of English law must necessarily be the best and the only rules to be applied in any international court. The other subject is the question of maritime law, which we have discussed freely to-night. Before 1914, even before 1909, the divergence between the Continental and the Anglo-Saxon schools of thought was enormously reduced by the development of the doctrine of contraband, so that the divergence between the two schools of thought diminished. In the War the process went a great deal further because the most important of our Allies on the Continent accepted our own Orders in Council and applied them in their blockade. If you pass to the post-War period, with which, after all, we are concerned—and this is the whole of our contention—all that divergence has passed away. We are not living under the old system but under the regime of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and under Article 16 we have all the belligerent rights which any country could ask for and which any belligerent, in its wildest dreams, could hope to obtain.
Hon. Members have expressed the gravest doubts about our position in this matter. I desire to anticipate, if I can, some of those results by restating the position as we think it will be. We say that Great Britain has determined to observe her undertaking under the Covenant and under the Pact of Paris of last year, which means—and it depends on this alone—that we shall never be operating in war or that our Fleet will never be exercising a blockade on the high seas, unless it is doing so in support of the Covenant of the. League—never. But if we are in defence we shall have the Covenant on our side. If we are acting under the Covenant it means that we are not alone, but that we have 53 other Powers, all the maritime Powers, with the exception of the United States, cooperating on our side. Therefore we say, as is said in the White Paper, that as between the members of the League there can be no neutrals.
The hon. and gallant Member who spoke last, if I may say so in his absence,

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did not really face our case at all. He was talking of nothing but the old kind of private war, which is entirely out of date. He will forgive me if I do not follow him. But the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) did go into detail on the basis of this statement which is made in the White Paper that there would be no neutrals. He cited two cases of possible difficulty. He said, in the first place, that there might be a war in which some small neighbour of Russia will be coerced by Russia into non-fulfilment of its obligation under the Covenant of the League. It will then, under the Optional Clause, being still a member of the League, take the matter to the Court and the Court will go against it. Why in the name of fortune should the Court go against it? How can the Court say that, because a State has been coerced by force majeure into non-exercising its obligations, those obligations have ceased to exist? Of course it will not. The Court will do as it would do in every other case, and by Article 16, as between the members of the League.
The other case which was taken by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham was this: That under the Covenant there will be neutrals, because under the Covenant every State decides for itself when war has broken out and when an act of aggression has been committed. The right hon. Gentleman seems to deduce from that proposition, which no one disputes, that the members of the League would be free as air to do exactly what they liked, either to co-operate or not at their discretion. But nothing could be further from the truth. It does not mean that they are free. They are bound by their solemn treaty obligations, which in good faith they must observe unless there are absolutely good grounds for honest doubt. There will not be absolute grounds for honest doubt for two reasons—first, because it is the duty of the Council to sit and make a recommendation, in other words to give a verdict as to who has been the aggressor; and because, if the Council finds any difficulty in so doing, it will apply the procedure which the right hon. Gentleman himself applied when he was in doubt in such a case. I mean when a state of war arose between Greece and Bulgaria
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in 1925. On that occasion what the right hon. Gentleman did was to say: "As to the war we do not know who began. We will call upon the two parties to withdraw their troops behind their frontiers, and the side which will not accept the armistice is the aggressor."
9.0 p.m.
In any case that is conceivable the Council will do exactly the same thing. In consequence there will not be cases in which there will be doubt about the aggressor; there will not be cases in which States can honestly fail to carry out their obligations. In other words, the system of the Covenant will work. But even on the right hon. Gentleman's hypothesis, what is the conclusion? That the whole system of the Covenant has broken down. There will be neutrals, yes. But why? Because we shall be in the old world, because we shall be working under the old system of international law, because international co-operation will have lapsed, because we shall not be acting together against the aggressor. Does anyone suggest that when the Peace Pact has been torn up, when the Covenant has been torn up, when all the structure has fallen to the ground, the one thing resting amid the general chaos and confusion will be the Optional Clause? We do not suggest it and we do not believe it. That is why we say that these hypotheses are really not founded in fact. Assuming that our proposition is right, what is the conclusion? We are acting under the Covenant in co-operation with 53 other States. The interest of those other States, the interest of the League, is that action shall be as effective as possible. They want to get a result, they want to close down the aggression.
It follows that it is virtually certain that no dispute can arise about the matter. For a dispute to arise a foreign government must back one of its own gunrunners who have been breaking the international blockade, which a foreign government in the face of the world cannot do. Suppose the case did actually arise in which a government thought there had been injustice on the facts, that the ship was not really going to an enemy destination. It would go to the Council. The Council could not determine the dispute. It would be able to send it or would allow it to go to the Permanent Court. What would that Court do? The

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catastrophe foreseen by hon. Members opposite would then have arisen. What would be the result? The result would be that the Court would apply the international law of Article 16, which is absolutely safe for us because it binds all the possible litigants and gives to us all the possible belligerent rights. Therefore, we submit that under these arrangements which we propose, on the hypothesis, of course, that quite honestly we are going to observe our obligations under the Covenant and the Pact of Paris, the liberty of the fleet is protected, preserved, and maintained in as full a degree as anyone can possibly desire.
It is on these grounds that we submit that there is no case for the Amendment that has been moved. I am going to express the very ardent hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite are not going to press the Amendment to a Division. After all, they agree with us about so much. They agree that every extension of arbitration increases the security of the world; they agree that the Optional Clause is a most effective way of extending arbitration; they agree that when the time comes the good sense of the British people makes them always want to go to arbitration. They know, above all, that by strengthening the whole system of international law they will be helping to substitute law for order in international affairs, and thereby promoting the greatest of all British interests. Therefore, we say to them that we hope they will not throw these solid advantages on one side for what we believe will be a remote and indeed an imaginary risk. It has been said, and it is true, that the greatest value of the action that we are going to take to-night-will lie in its moral effect. It may lead on to great results. The moral effect of our action to-night will be enormously increased if this House acts, not by a Division, but unanimously.
The Optional Clause is not an isolated action. It is part of a great policy—the policy of organising the world against war. When we have finished with the Option Clause, there will be lots of other Resolutions of the same kind brought forward by the Government for our consideration, and I hope that in these matters we may act as a nation. If we do so, we shall be able to fulfil the purposes for which we stand. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for
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Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) quoted a remarkable article from the Journal de Genève and I was glad to hear it because I have often wondered whether hon. Members understand the immense power of the British Commonwealth of Nations when they stand for peace. The power of our country extends far beyond the confines of the Empire which it rules. Whether we like it or not, whether we seek it or not, a leadership in the affairs of mankind has been thrust upon us by the very nature of the Commonwealth in which we live. I hope that the House to-night, and on all other similar occasions, will give to the Government a mandate to use this leadership for righteousness and peace. If so, they will lead the world as they never did before. I believe that it was during the fight against negro slavery that Abraham Lincoln said:
"Public sentiment is everything. With it nothing can fail; without it nothing can succeed."
Public sentiment got rid of negro slavery and if we use it public sentiment will get rid of war. If this House and this Government desire it, and if they have behind them in their work for peace the public sentiment not only of this nation but of the nations of the world, they can use that sentiment to build up around the jurisdiction of the Permanent Court a bulwark of moral authority, of public confidence and trust which will make it certain that no criminal of the future will venture to stand against it. I hope, therefore, that they will go forward with courage to the other tasks which lie before them. If they do so, they may be certain that whatever the forces of reaction may attempt against them, the cause of peace and justice will prevail.
Mr. ATKINSON: I congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken upon what seemed to me to be a very able speech. I cannot say, however, that he has satisfied me. There is no question whatever between us, as I understand it, about the Optional Clause. Most of us, at any rate I, myself, feel just as strongly in favour of the Optional Clause as anybody on the opposite side of the House, and the whole question with me is, whether it would not be wiser to add this reservation to those which are already included in our adherence to the Clause. It is not a question, as some speakers

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seemed to think, of doing something to encourage war or to make war more likely than peace. The whole point which arises is this. If despite your League of Nations and your Kellogg Pact, there should be war what is to be our position regarding our maritime rights? It is all very well to assume, as the last speaker did, that all the nations belonging to the League will, at all times perform to the full their obligations under the League. That may not be the case. The hon. Member also seems to forget that there are nations outside the League and that nations may leave the League. That has been done before and may be done again.
I wish, quite shortly, to state the position as I see it. To begin with, I wholly dissent from what the hon. Member said about unanimity existing throughout Europe regarding maritime law. I quite agree that as to a great deal of international law there is a considerable amount of agreement, but it is not taking a correct view of history to say, as the hon. Member did, that there has been, or that there is unanimity with regard to maritime law. There is, and there has always been conflict in Europe about it and the rights which we have claimed as the greatest maritime Power, have never been admitted by the other nations of Europe. These questions always arise between a belligerent and a neutral. Controversial matters such as the right of search and capture arise, not between belligerents but between a belligerent and a neutral. See what happens. Suppose that we are at war with a nation which is not a member of the League or a nation which, being a member of the League, has not subscribed to this Clause. Let us take the first case, that of a nation which is not within the League. If a question arises between us and a neutral and if we do not impose this limitation upon our adherence to the Clause, then the dispute has to go to the Hague Tribunal. Note first that the decision will be taken by a tribunal of neutrals. Of course a belligerent being a party to the dispute could not sit as judge in his own cause, and the decision, therefore, would be that of a tribunal wholly composed of neutrals. No one can pretend that that would be a very satisfactory tribunal in the circumstances.
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The next point is that this tribunal, with every desire to be fair, would have no law to apply. They could not turn to precedents, to accepted decisions, accepted views, or accepted declarations. In reality they would be legislating and not applying law to an existing state of facts in which case, if they were trained lawyers, they would be able to put aside prejudices. I want the House to appreciate that you might thus have a body of laws built up without the two great maritime nations of the world, Great Britain and the United States, having had any part in it whatever. A body of law created in that way by neutrals, by a tribunal in which the two great maritime powers played no part, and had no say whatever, could not command the assent of the maritime powers of the world and would have no permanence whatever. There is another point which has not been brought out in this Debate. We talk about building up this body of international law, but when that has been done, what happens? Supposing this tribunal gave a decision concerning this or that right, such as the right of search. Supposing the United States Government are neutral and supposing that they are still outside the League they are not bound by the decision. The Hague Tribunal might decide that we as belligerents had a certain right against some particular neutral. That decision would not bind the United States and they might say, "We contest that view altogether and we as neutrals claim that you have no such right." There would be no unanimity at all.
What would be the position of a belligerent in a situation of that kind? As regards certain neutrals you would have one tribunal giving one decision: as regards neutrals not members of the League such as the United States and Russia, those decisions would not be binding and might be repudiated and you might have to arrive at some different conclusion. But the Kellogg Pact lays it down that you are not to fight about it: that you are to find some other way of dealing with it, and, thus, some other form of arbitration tribunal would have to be appointed. That tribunal might come to a conclusion directly opposite to the conclusion of the Hague Tribunal. Thus the position might arise that there would he one set of decisions as between the belligerent Power and the neutrals

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within the League, and another set of decisions as between the belligerent Power and the neutrals not within the League.
The position seems to be absurd and I ask the House to note also that your enemy might not be bound by a decision which was binding on you. Your enemy might be outside the League and thus you might be bound by a decision, and, your enemy not being a member of the League, would not be bound by the decision, and might continue to exercise rights against neutrals which have been debarred to you by the decision of the Tribunal at The Hague. The only satisfactory way of dealing with this maritime law is not to wait before you sign the Optional Clause—I do not suggest that—but to retain this exception until you have got an agreed code of maritime law. It is really not such a long business as some people seem to think. If you have any desire to create a code, it can be done. Accept the Optional Clause with this limitation, and proceed to get your agreed code of law, and once you have got it, I do not think there would be the same objection to its being applied by the Tribunal as you have when there is no code of law to apply and where that Tribunal would really be building up a body of law.
I rather dissent from the suggestion that the attitude of our party has been one of advocating war against peace. The Noble Lady opposite, the Member for Stoke (Lady Mosley), made a very good speech, which might have been addressed to a party which was repudiating all desire for peace, but when the whole point of the Amendment is not a rejection of the Optional Clause at all, but simply the retaining of a right to keep the control of our own maritime rights until such time as those rights have been settled by agreement with all parties, merely because we wish, in our interests and for our own safety, to retain that right, to be addressed in the way in which this party has been addressed to-night does not seem to me to be very relevant or fair.
Dr. BURGIN: One of the most fascinating tasks for any student of foreign relations is to investigate the extent to which international law has contributed to world peace, and I join with the
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greatest pleasure in to-night's Debate because I believe that if this Resolution is passed, as I feel confident it will be with an overwhelming majority, we shall do something again to enthrone international law in the place it should occupy. The International Court of Justice was a new Court, and it had to proceed with caution. In the realm of private international law one of the great difficulties we have in inducing one State to accept the judgment or decision of another is that such different rules apply in different countries for the selection and appointment of Judges and for their methods and standards of justice. One of the great things about the International Court of Justice at The Hague was the happy way in which the selection of Judges was made, and we think with gratitude of the part that the late Lord Phillimore played in that decision. The Court established, its Judges elected in an impartial manner which satisfied the world, it proceeded slowly. In the reputation which the Court set out to gain from 1920 onward, Lord Finlay, another great British jurist, played a very prominent part.
We are now at the logical sequence of those events—a new court, new judges, in a sense a new system of law, proceeding cautiously, trying some 30 odd cases, building up a reputation. We now ask that the jurisdiction of that court may be compulsory so far as our own country is concerned. Anyone who reads the Covenant will surely admit that the idea behind its framers was ultimately the reign of international law, and may I remind Members of this House that law, at any rate municipal law, is not a matter that is optional; it is a matter that is obligatory, and law that is optional is a misnomer, and international law that is optional is an equal misnomer. So I find the whole weight of reason on the side of international law, so soon as it is securely established, becoming obligatory upon the different countries that desire to use it, and to-night I applaud the decision of the Government in signing the Clause at Geneva and in bringing forward this Motion. I was present at Geneva in 1924 when the present Foreign Secretary made his previous observations on this same subject. I was actually in the room when it was done, and well I remember the scene.

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The course of this Debate has shown that there is a general feeling of agreement for the principle of the signing of this Clause, but differences have arisen with regard to reservations. It would be quite idle for this House to imagine that this Debate is not of a very far-reaching character and the decisions of great importance. It is not a big contribution to this Debate merely to talk of the advantages of international arbitration and to blind oneself to the admitted difficulties which exist, and I trust I shall not be thought to be striking any discordant note if I speak with language of some exactitude on the reservations which have been added to the signature by our country and by the Dominions. Let us recollect that, although we talk of arbitration somewhat freely in this Debate, we are really dealing with the settlement of a legal dispute by a legal tribunal, and arbitration is at least an odd word to use for such a process. We are really dealing with a voluntary agreement to determine certain classes of legal disputes by a particular legal court, and it is well that we should realise exactly what disputes are to be so submitted and exactly what are excluded.
Article 36 decides what can be submitted to the Court; the reservations of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary decide what is not to be submitted. Everything that is within Article 36 and everything that is without the reservations is, if the House ratifies this Clause, submitted to the Permanent Court of International Justice at The Hague. It is well that that should be firmly in mind, because I apprehend that every close attention will be paid to the wording of the reservations should ever any dispute arise as to what they mean; and I would call the attention of the House to the fact that Article 36 itself says that, should there be any doubt as to what a reservation means, it is the International Court which decides the doubt, and if there is any question as to the jurisdiction of the Permanent Court at The Hague, it is that court which decides whether it has or whether it has not. That is very material, so that we are conferring—I do not say it is wrong, but I am anxious that the House should do it with its eyes open—upon the Permanent Court of International Justice
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at The Hague the construction of certain words in which we table our reservations. We must face that fact. I do not desire to make any comment upon the reservation which deals with matters that are past. It seems to me not at all undesirable that we should draw the line and say that from now onwards we are under this new jurisdiction and in no doubt as to some matter being dragged up which relates to the past. That does not seem to me at all an unstatesmanlike attitude and I have no comment to make upon it.
I desire to look for a moment at the remaining reservations, and I do so in the hope that I may perhaps, by questions, raise points which the learned Attorney-General may think it well to deal with in response. First of all, it is very proper to find that there is a reservation of disputes in regard to which the parties have agreed on some other method of peaceful settlement. A good deal has been said in the Debate to-night about the linking up of the signature of the Optional Clause with the signing of the Peace Pact. I would like to remind the House that the Peace Pact, of course, contemplates the settlement of disputes by a number of other methods than by submission to a legal court. Anybody who reads the Peace Pact and sees that matters may be settled by diplomatic intervention, by mediation, and by various methods of peaceful settlement that are open would have wondered at it being said that the signature of the Optional Clause flowed from that Pact. It does not flow from it, but reservation No. 1 secures all the advantages which the Peace Pact gave. Therefore, I accept reservation No. 1, because is provides for using the other methods of peaceful settlement which are contemplated by the Pact of Paris.
With regard to reservation No. 2—disputes with any other members of the League who are members of the British Commonwealth—I want to put this question to the learned Attorney-General, who, I believe, is to reply. This deals with disputes with any other member of the League who is a member of the British Commonwealth. On the face of it, that seems quite simple to interpret, but is it not quite easy to imagine circumstances in which we might find that the dispute, while involving another member of the British Commonwealth, might

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involve another country as well? If that were so, would not the question of whether it was a dispute which came within reservation No. 2 or not be decided by the Court? Does not this, if left in this somewhat bare form, expose us to the possible risk of a difference as to Whether or not the dispute does affect another member of the British Commonwealth being decided, not by ourselves as the Imperial Government, but by the Permanent Court of International Justice? I raise the point, not in any spirit of criticism, but in a spirit of inquiry, because to some of us it seems that this reservation, while quite proper, is not quite sufficiently explicit in terms to exclude such a possibility as that.
The third reservation is:
"Disputes with regard to questions which by international law fall exclusively within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom."
The right hon. Gentleman, in making his speech to-day in introducing the Motion, paraphrased that in the language used elsewhere in the White Paper and referred to:
"Matters which fall within what is called the domestic jurisdiction of a State."
I should like the learned Attorney-General to consider whether the paraphrase and the reservation both mean the same thing? "Matters which by international law fall within the jurisdiction of a country "is a phrase far wider than" domestic jurisdiction of a State." I would like to remind the Attorney-General that in the Tunis nationality case, which was decided by this Permanent Court of International Justice, and which brought to a happy conclusion a dispute which threatened serious differences between our own country and the Republic of France, the Court referred to something concerning the problem which I am indicating. May I quote a sentence from the judgment of that Court:
"The Court finds that in the present state of international law questions of nationality are, in principle, within the domestic jurisdiction, but it may well happen that in a matter which, like nationality, is not, in principle, intertional law, the right of a State to use its discretion may be restricted by obligations undertaken towards other States."
In other words, a matter that is apparently within the domestic jurisdiction of a State may be excluded from it by international treaty and agreement or by an award or some other decision.
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While I do not in the least quarrel with the reservation of questions which by international law fall exclusively within the jurisdiction of our own courts, I venture to ask whether it would not be policy at some time for us to state openly to the world the meaning which we attach to those words, particularly if there is the slightest risk of ambiguity? I do not wish to comment on the powers which the Foreign Secretary has taken to ask that a matter be suspended from the consideration of the Court so long as it is under consideration by the Council. As one who from the very earliest day the Council met has followed with the greatest interest and attention the working of that body, and indeed of the Assembly, I am certainly of the opinion that there is a large field of matters in which the Council is at least as appropriate a body to decide as the Permanent Court, and therefore I am all in favour of power of this kind to ask for consideration to be suspended pending consideration by the Council.
It appears to me, having listened literally to the whole of the Debate, that the Amendment which really is the cause of the Debate assuming the proportions that it has, is all a mistake. I have been expecting all the evening that somebody would table a manuscript Amendment to the Amendment. As I understood the Foreign Secretary when he made his speech, he too suspected that the right hon. Gentleman above the Gangway on the Opposition side might have been misled by some abbreviated or telegraphic report of what really did happen in 1924, because, unless he has been misled, almost all the oratory we have heard to-night from the other side of the House was not in order on the Amendment at all. We have heard speech after speech deploring the fact that Britain appeared to be giving up her liberty of action in maritime law, and talking as if a safeguard was to be found within the Amendment. It is not. The Conservative Amendment suggests that a reservation should be added to those laid down by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in 1924. It follows that, if he did not lay it down, it is no good adding it now.
As I understand the Foreign Secretary, what happened in 1924 was this: He stated that, if ever the British Fleet were called upon as an instrument of execution by the Council of the League

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to carry out some decision, its use should be determined by the principles of maritime law. That is a very different proposition from that which has been put from these benches to-day. The proposition thoughout the Debate has been that we are not prepared to surrender contraband, blockade, and the law of prize generally. That is an entirely different proposition. I should have been prepared to argue it had it been so tabled, but, in point of fact, this Amendment merely asks that we should have a reservation of the very limited kind which the Foreign Secretary made in Geneva in 1924. It is a matter of regret that the Foreign Secretary did not communicate to this House long before the White Paper of the 12th December the fact that in the Government's view prize was not excluded.
I would remind the House that question after question was asked by the late Postmaster-General, and I can recall specific instances in October and November when the Government were asked: "Will you say 'yes' or 'no' whether the law of prize is excluded from the submission to the International Court of Justice or not?" I can recollect a whole aeries of evasive answers, which suggested that it was quite impossible to deal with the law and the reservations in an oral answer. No doubt "yes" is very difficult to utter on many occasions. It is a pity we did not know the Government's attitude on that point until the publication of the White Paper. Whether I am well founded in that or not, we did know it on the 12th December. On the 11th December, actually the day before, Professor Pearce Higgins, of Cambridge, a distinguished international lawyer, published a little pamphlet on the British acceptance of compulsory arbitration under the Optional Clause and its implications, and he took pains to argue as to whether by any stretch of the imagination prize law could be held to be a question which by international law fell exclusively within the jurisdiction of Great Britain. So I say that the country has to some extent been unnecessarily troubled about this question of prize law by the delay of His Majesty's Government in making their meaning clear on that point. Now that we have the mean-
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ing clear, let us examine it. The right hon. Gentleman, in 1924, may have made a mistake; it is dreadful to think of that possibility; but I suggest that he may have made a mistake. I think, really, that he feels that the reservation which he made in 1924 was not a necessary one. If he felt that it was a necessary one in 1924, he would have made the same reservation now in 1930. The real explanation behind all the plausible arguments about belligerent rights at sea is that the right hon. Gentleman has changed his mind, but it has not been plainly and clearly stated.
Let me deal for a moment with the question of belligerent rights. For a good many years before the War, conferences of international lawyers the world over had been endeavouring to arrive at agreement with regard to the rights of belligerents. I have here a great authority on the law of prize, and there is an entire chapter, the whole burden of which is that all courts dealing in prize have at all times endeavoured to administer international law. If the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, when sitting as a prize court, have endeavoured—and I may say in the hearing of this House with conspicuous success—to apply and administer rules of international law, it is not much of a step forward to say that we should consent to the Permanent Court of Justice at The Hague being an appellant court from our own supreme court in prize, when we are admittedly administering international law.
Even had the Conservative Amendment been rightly worded, even had it been aptly worded to cover the subject matter of the Debate, had it been so phrased that what has been said from these benches would have been strictly relevant, I should have been well prepared to argue against it, because I think that the whole trend of modern international legal learning has been that in matters of prize, contraband, and blockade, we were prepared to have these matters referred to an international court. For these reasons, I feel that the reservations that have been made, subject to these notes of additional explanation which I hope may be forthcoming, are adequate, and that there is no point or substance in the additional reservation which is asked for. I trust that now that this

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Debate has run its course, now that from all sides of the House appeals have been heard urging our country to take this step, with the knowledge that the eyes of the world are on us and that they approve forward tactics, this House will by a large preponderance give the Government this Motion.
Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON, Junr.: The hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin) made one criticism of the Government's policy with which perhaps he will allow me to deal. In the position that exists to-day, there is a new conception of prize law. Under the operation of Articles 16 and 17 of the Covenant, what we know as prize law in one sense no longer exists, from the practical point of view; in other words, a possible dispute between belligerent and neutral nations is no longer a practical possibility. An hon. and learned Member who spoke from the Conservative benches said that, supposing you had two countries, "A" and "B," at war, and one of the countries was our's, there would be a large number of neutral countries deciding whether or not we were acting in accordance with international law. That is a proper and effective criticism, but only on one assumption. That assumption is that the machinery established by the League of Nations had broken down. If that machinery had not broken down, having regard to the Covenant and the Kellogg Pact, there could not be neutrals so far as international law is concerned. Private war is abolished, and the only war we can have is what I may call a League war. All those countries which are members of the League of Nations would be parties to the war, no matter what might be their contribution towards the sanctions under the Covenant. Therefore, the question of prize law between this country and neutrals cannot arise.
The same learned gentleman complained that there had been some criticism from this side of the House on the ground that Members of the party opposite were not very enthusiastic in the cause of international peace. I very much doubt whether any hon. Member on this side of the House would ever east any reflection upon the sincerity of hon. Members opposite, but we are entitled to look back a little, and, if we examine the attitude towards this question displayed by the
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previous Government, we are entitled to draw this conclusion, that their objection to the signing of the Optional Clause is based upon the fundamental fact that they are not believers in the International Court. The right hon. Gentleman the late Foreign Secretary, in a speech in this House some months ago, said international law was a very indeterminate thing. He might have reminded the House that the same criticism could have been made about the Common Law of this country when it was first evolved in the twelfth or thirteenth century. He went on to say there was a difference of opinion between what he called the Continental school of international lawyers and the Anglo-American school of international lawyers. I should have thought, having regard to the past, we would be more justified in taking a risk even in that direction than in pursuing the old methods which operated up to 1914.
The same right hon. Gentleman made, if I may be allowed to say so, one or two rather academic criticisms of the structure, the phraseology, of this Optional Clause, and asked various questions which I have no doubt will be dealt with by the learned Attorney-General; but may I deal with one or two points he put forward in his speech? He wanted to know whether "disputes that arise after the ratification of the present Declaration with regard to situations or facts subsequent to the ratification" would apply to the dispute that this country had in the past with Venezuela. I would point out to the House that in this phrase the critical word is the word "disputes." It is not a question as to when the situation or the facts arise, but when the dispute arises. If there was a dispute between this country and Venezuela in September of last year, then that dispute would come within the Optional Clause. If there was no dispute on the date on which this Optional Clause was signed, then, of course, that would be a thing of the past, and would be excluded by the terms of the agreement.
The same right hon. Gentleman said that under the Declaration a dispute could be referred to the Council and suspended for 12 months so far as the International Court was concerned, and that then, after the expiration of 12 months, failing unanimous agreement on

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the Council, it would go to the International Court. I suggest that if such a provision had been in existence in 1914 if it had been possible to suspend for 12 months the dispute that arose in August, 1914, then in all probability the Great War would never have taken place; and from that point of view I suggest that this is a very valuable and excellent provision. My time is up. I understand the agreement is that the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up for the Opposition shall be on his feet by 10 minutes to 10, and therefore I must bring my remarks to a conclusion; but may I say that I think the Government have shown very great courage in going forward along these lines? The trouble with hon. Gentlemen opposite is that they are living in the past, and fail to realise that the people of this country and other countries are determined, if possible, to prevent us having recourse to the method of war; and in so far as this new policy tends to establish and perpetuate international peace I suggest that it will have the support of all right-minded men and women.
Sir WILLIAM MITCHELL-THOMSON: I should be extremely unkind if I did not acknowledge at once the courteous way in which the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr. A. Henderson, Junior) has kept the understanding that was arranged, and I too will do my best to keep within the limits of time convenient to allow every opportunity for the right hon. Gentleman opposite to reply. We have had a very interesting, and, if I may say so, rather a discursive Debate, which has tended sometimes, as I think the last speaker suggested, to pursue more the academic fringe of the subject than to deal with the actual realities. I want to recall the House to what it is that it will vote upon in an hour's time. The terms of the Amendment raise the question whether or not there is to be appended to the ratification of this Optional Clause a reservation either similar to or on the lines of the reservation which was deemed necessary in 1924. It would not be courteous if I were not to say one word about the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel). My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Ripon Division (Major Hills) said he found the speech of the right hon.
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Gentleman hard to follow, and I confess that for the first time in a comparatively long experience I had the same difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman, who can be extremely concise and clear, seemed on this occasion to be somewhat diffuse and rather vague. No one in this House can be a greater master of precise language and precise argument, and yet we found him involved in labyrinths of woolly generalities. He devoted a considerable portion of his speech to urging the advantages of establishing a system of arbitration with the United States, and having heard that I expected to see him arrive at his usual precise conclusion; but what was the conclusion at which he did arrive? It was that conclusion which we all knew was a fact, and that is that the United States has so far not expressed, and shows no symptoms of expressing, any particular desire to ratify the Optional Clause.
The right hon. Gentleman said that this Debate is a dispute between the centuries; that blockade was a nightmare of the past and Lord Nelson a "back number." It is a dispute, not between the centuries, but between theorists and realists. The right hon. Gentleman came down on the side of the realists, because, after all, he was reduced to the reflection that it might be, in spite of every care, that war might come, and he said that, if a war should come in which we should be engaged, it would be the hope, desire, and belief of all of us that it would be what the Foregn Secretary called a covenant war, and the right hon. Gentleman refused to conceive circumstances in which we should be engaged in war (a) except for the purposes of defence, or (b) for the support of the League as a whole. There can be no doubt about that. It is idle to suggest that you are going to make such a revolution in society that you can dismiss once and for all the possibility of a recurrence of war. If that be so, why not insert this reservation? The real truth of the matter is that it is no use dogmatising about the future. It is all very Well to set off cheerily for the new Jerusalem, but you arrive nowhere unless you take into account in some degree the experience of the past.
I am going to tell the House, for reasons that I will give, that you cannot dismiss the experience of the past in the

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light-hearted way in which it has been dismissed by some hon. Members who have spoken in this Debate. My claim to speak is not as a theorist, but as one who has had practical experience. My qualification is that I am one of the few survivors, almost the only one, who can speak freely of those who had the actual administrative responsibility for the conduct of the blockade during the latter part of the War. In December, 1916, I was asked to take over the administrative responsibility as Director of Restriction of Enemy Supplies, and I continued in that position until the Armistice. I ask the House to believe that I am stating, not what I think, but what I know as the result of practical experience. This is not the time to talk about the blockade, but I will only say that, during the last few years of the War, the blockade was developed to a degree hitherto undreamt of, and no one, only those close to it, knew what a terrible instrument it was. I will not attempt to assign to the blockade its share in the victory, but I have no hesitation in saying that, without it, victory would have been much more doubtful and the struggle much more prolonged.
10.0 p.m.
What we call loosely the blockade, really means the restriction of supplies? What are functions of sea power? They are intended, in the first place, to assure the free movement of our own forces; and, in the second place, to assure the safety of our own supplies. In the third place, to prevent the free movement of the enemy forces; and fourthly, to restrict, so far as you can, the free movement of enemy supplies. Those are four vital functions. The restriction of enemy supplies is founded upon three things. First of all, the control of the sea by the Navy, which guarantees the free exercise of the right of visit and search. So free did that become that in the concluding stages of the War the neutrals actually used to put into ports like Halifax rather than wait for the inconvenience of being searched and visited at sea. First of all, there was control of the sea by the Navy. Secondly, there was the control of supplies—and this form of control is sometimes imperfectly understood. It means the control of the sources of supply by the Allies and the control of the supply of great commodi-
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ties like wheat, oil, and coal which enabled us to impose conditions upon neutrals. As a condition of selling them those supplies it was provided that they should do or abstain from doing certain things which might be respectively convenient or inconvenient to the allied forces.
In the third place, there was the restriction founded upon the progessive development and the amplification of the old conception of international law as concerns the rights between neutrals and belligerents. Those old concepts were of a very ancient origin indeed. They date back through the centuries, right back to the Oleron and the Consolato del Mare, but they had to be interpreted in the light of modern conditions. During the War our Prize Courts developed a process which begun in the United States Prize Courts during the American Civil War—a process of interpretation of those old laws. Those laws were framed for quite a different state of things from that which obtained in the last War, and which would obtain in any future war. They were framed for the days when contests between nations were, so to speak, contests between armies of professional gladiators, with the rest of the population looking on as spectators, sometimes interested, sometimes not so interested, sometimes scarcely interested at all. Those were the days of great fortified places, of great places of arms, of laws applied to great fortified places and places of arms—a conception and a theory of war which was shattered with the bursting of the first German shells on the Belgium forts. Let the House realise how fast events move. Even the Declaration of London, which was drawn up well within the memory of many of us who sit in this House to-day—some of those sitting around me were actually here and took part in the discussions—the Declaration of London was drawn up at a time when wireless was in its infancy, and when air warfare was equally so. Therefore, these old concepts had, as I have said, to be modernised, they had to be examined under modern conditions and to be developed and expanded to suit those conditions. That process, as I have said, had already been begun in the American Civil War by the American Prize Courts, and the evolution was followed by our own Prize Courts

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during the Great War. Gradually there was evolved by our Administration and by our Prize Courts a series of orders and rules which profoundly modified many of the old concepts of international law. They practically abolished the "Free List" for instance; they largely abolished the distinction between absolute and conditional contraband; and they greatly extended and amplified the old doctrine of continuous voyage. I say—and this is the first point that I wish to make to the House—that without that process of amplification and development by our Prize Courts of the international prize law in the light of modern conditions, following the same line of precedents as had been followed in previous years by the American Prize Courts, the effective restriction of enemy supplies during the last War would have been impossible. I do not ask the House to take that from me. Even so far back as April, 1916, we had already perceived that that in fact was the case, and I am going to recall to the House, because I said I was going to take them back to actualities, what it was that Lord Grey actually said in April, 1916. I am not quoting anything that I ought not to quote, because this has already been published in a Command Paper. On the 24th April, 1916, Lord Grey wrote this:
"The United States Government will, it is believed, agree with His Majesty's Government that no belligerent could in modern times submit to be bound by a rule that no goods could be seized unless accompanied by papers which established their destination to an enemy country"—
I am omitting irrelevant words—
"To press any such theory is tantamount to asking that all trade between neutral ports should be free, and would thus render nugatory the existence of sea power, and destroy the pressure which the command of the sea enables the Allies to impose upon the enemy."
The concepts of international law developed first, as I have said, by the United States, and afterwards developed here, have always differed from what I may call, for want of a better word, the Continental concepts, which, though we call them Continental concepts, were, I think, largely Dutch in origin. The difference that existed before the War, great as it was, became vastly accentuated during the progress of the War, and I confess that I was amazed to-night
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to hear the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) say that, after all, there was not much uncertainty to-day about international law. I do not know about international law as a whole; perhaps that might be said in some respects of the general body of international law; but, if that phrase is intended to apply to international maritime law, I say at once that it will not stand examination for an instant. On the contrary, the whole course of the War showed that, more and more as we developed and expanded to meet the new conditions, so more and more did the neutral countries cling closely to the old formula. So far from there being no uncertainty in international law, something much nearer the truth will be found in Mr. Erle Richards' recent book on "British Prize Courts in the War," where he says that, if you start to discuss principles of international maritime law, there are hardly any accepted principles on which discussion can even begin. That corresponds much more nearly with the actual facts than does the suggestion of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton. Let the House realise that the real truth is that, if we are to submit possible disputes to the jurisdiction—the appellate jurisdiction if you like—of an International Court, in which Continental jurists are, ex hypothesi, in the majority, there is no doubt that their views will tend more towards the Continental concept than towards the British concept. That may be all very well if we are certain that we are going to be neutral, if, indeed, there are any neutrals in the next war, and I shall have a word to say about that later. I confess, however, that I find it somewhat difficult to console myself with the reflection that we are to be put in that position, because the uneasy thought recurs to my mind, and even to the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen, that there may possibly be a state of things in which we shall find ourselves engaged as belligerents, and under those conditions I say at once, and with the utmost emphasis that I can, that a modification by the International Court on the lines of those Continental concepts, which were maintained by neutrals during the War, would render the restriction of supplies by blockade absolutely impossible. The Government know that. They were told

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that in 1924 by their professional advisers. I can very well believe that their professional advisers will tell them the same thing to-day, and, although I do not want to be dogmatic on the matter, so far as I have any title to speak, so far as I have any professional qualifications, I would tell them the same thing to-morrow. You could not enforce a blockade under those conditions. The proof of that is what happened in 1924. Why was this reservation made? It was because the right hon. Gentleman was told by his professional advisers that he had got to make it. He did not invent it. He did not make it off his own bat. He was told he had got to make it. [An HON. MEMBER: "To whom are you referring?"] I am referring to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Mr. A. HENDERSON: I want to know who are the professional advisers that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to.
Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The right hon. Gentleman is as well acquainted as I am with those who are fitted to advise him in these affairs. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman says that is not the opinion of his professional advisers, I accept it from him at once.
Mr. HENDERSON: I did not say so.
Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Then I will ask the right hon. Gentleman this question quite plainly. Did he put that reservation in in 1924 out of his own head or did he put it in because it was suggested to him by his then professional advisers? Of course it was suggested to him, and of course he put it in, and of course he put it in because he was told it was necessary. I say it was necessary then and I say it is necessary to-day. Let me see why the right hon. Gentleman suggests that it is not necessary. First of all, does he suggest that it is not necessary? I do not know what my right hon. Friend thought of his speech but I found it rather difficult to follow, because at one moment he read out a long passage in the ipsissima verba of his speech to prove that he was really making no change at all in what he had said before, whereas at another moment he appeared to be drawing attention to the fact that he was making some great step forward. I do not know on which leg he desires to rest, but I will assume, from what he has
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said by way of interruption, that there is a change since 1924, and that there is some reason why this reservation, which was necessary then, is not necessary now. Let us get down to the kernel of the subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope I am not detaining the House at too great length. I have been trying to explain how it is that I come to be in a position, at all events, to express some views on the subject. They may be right or wrong but I have some practical experience behind them.
I will now address myself to this question what is the change since 1924. It can only mean two things—either in the Covenant or in the Pact. Let us examine both and see which it is. Take the Covenant first. Is it suggested that there is some modification, or interpretation, which has occurred in Article 16 of the Covenant since it was drawn up which tends to support the view put forward in the White Paper that it is becoming more absolute and automatic than it was? The contrary is the fact and, as the years go by, Article 16 has tended to become more and more permissive. That is not surprising. Here I speak again as one of those who took part in the drafting discussions when Article 16 was framed. I say openly—it has been stated already—that it was never present to the minds of the framers of Article 16 that it would have to apply to a system of things under which it should not be, broadly speaking, of almost universal application, and the framers of Article 16 would have been the first to perceive the immense difficulties that were going to attend its execution if you have great nations like the United State and Brazil outside its ambit. As framed, and as pleaded in aid by the Government in the White Paper, Article 16, it is true, was more or less peremptory and automatic, but the whole tendency of the discussions in the Assembly and elsewhere since has been to mitigate the peremptory and automatic character of Article 16 and to give States, members of the League, precisely something of that freedom of determination as regards the application of Clause 16 which the Government, for their own purpose, have been arguing in this White Paper does not exist at all.
Let me illustrate what I mean by reference. There are two or three illustrations that I could give. Let me give one.

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Here is a note to Germany signed by Belgium, Great Britain, France, Italy, Poland, and Czechoslovakia explaining what the Locarno powers understand to be the obligations imposed by Article 16. It says:
"The obligations under Article 16 must be understood to mean that each State member of the League is bound to co-operate loyally and effectively in support of the Covenant, and any resistance to any act of aggression to an extent which is compatible with its military situation and takes its geographical position into account."
Where do you find that in the White Paper? Let me illustrate again with another reference which is perhaps not quite so strictly relevant but which is equally illuminating—the German Government to the Soviet Republic on the conclusion of the German Soviet Treaty in 1926:
"The question of whether the N.S.S.R. is the aggressor in the event of conflict with a third party can only be determined with binding force for Germany with that State's own consent, and therefore an accusation in this sense supplied by another Power against the N.S.S.R. and regarded by Germany as unjustifiable would not bind Germany to take part in measures of the kind initiated under Article 16."
In the face of illustrations of that kind, I say to the Government again, "Do they seriously suggest that it is due to any tendency in the Covenant to become more automatic and more peremptory in its application? They can safely absolve themselves from the necessity of inserting this reservation. In fact, there is no such change in the Covenant. The experience tends, if anything, rather to go in the other direction. If it is not in the Covenant, where is it? Is it in the Kellogg Pact? I hope that the learned Attorney-General will answer this precise and specific question. Is it in the Kellogg Pact? Where in the Kellogg Pact do you find any fresh legal application which would justify an assertion such as that? It is one of may greatest complaints against this White Paper that anyone who reads it, unless he does so with extreme care and caution, will jump at the conclusion that it is suggested that in some way or another the Kellogg Pact has legally changed the situation. If they will look in page 10, paragraph 21, hon. Members will find these words:
"This being so, the situation which we have to envisage in the event of a war in which we were engaged is not one in which
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the rights and duties of belligerents and neutrals will depend upon the old rules of war and neutrality, but one in which the position of members of the League will be determined by the Covenant and the Pact."
The truth is that the position of the members of the League in that particular regard is determined solely by the Covenant and not by the Pact at all. As the right hon. Gentleman appears to doubt that assertion, let me recall exactly what happened. So wholly was the wording of this White Paper that it deceived even the trained pressmen who cabled summaries to their particular papers in America They cabled a summary to America which, in fact, did produce a wrong impression. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman exactly of what Mr. Stimson thought it proper to say and necessary to point out when the actual details did arrive there. I am going to quote from the "Times" of the 31st December.
"The argument made by the British Government was based upon the relations of that Government to its fellow members in the League of Nations; and upon the obligations assumed by members in that Covenant.…Their argument thus does not apply to the position of the United States as a signatory of the Kellogg-Briand Pact. That Pact contains no covenant similar to that in the Covenant of the League of Nations.…The entire argument of the British White Paper clearly shows that it was addressed solely to obligations created by the League of Nations."
I have dealt as far as I could, within the limits of time, with the obligations alleged to be created by the League of Nations.
In the face of that statement by Mr. Stimson, will the Attorney-General address himself to this particular question—what is the change since 1924 which involved us in the necessity for this hasty assumption of obligations, some of them rather imperfectly defined, without the reservation which was deemed necessary in 1924? We have far too much at stake in this matter to be able to afford to take risks. The Foreign Secretary admitted the whole of our case for this Amendment, in his opening speech. What did he say? As some hon. Members did not hear it, let me repeat the point. In regard to the question of maritime rights, he took the view that disputes of that character were not fit justiciable subjects for the International Court. The right hon. Gentleman assents to that.

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Having taken that view, that they are not fit subjects for the International Court, what did he say? He said that he proposed to remove them from the Court, to filch them away from the Court by going to the Council of the League. It was then pointed out to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) that one member of the Council of the League could defeat him in that. If that be the view of the Government, if they are really agreed that these are not fit justiciable subjects for the International Court, as such, why not say so? Why not accept that reservation, and then we shall have done? If they do that, we shall have little cause of quarrel between the two sides of the House. If they do not do that, if they insist on passing the Optional Clause, without this reservation, then I do not believe that, at the best, they will be advancing the progress of the cause of peace. At the worst, they will be placing in grave jeopardy some of the most vital interests of this country.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir William Jowitt): There is no topic that could come before this House on which I am more proud to have the opportunity of speaking on behalf of our policy than on this topic. Whereas in our domestic problems we are doing what we can to help the people of this country— [Laughter]—what we can, and no Government can do more; only fools think they can do more. In this matter, I believe that we are really helping humanity as a whole to come on to some firmer and better foundation than the foundation on which it has hitherto stood. The Debate has been marked by several remarkable speeches. On the one hand, we have had the remarkably clever speech of the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) which was referred to as a woolly labyrinth by the right hon. Gentleman who preceded me, after which he gave us some pungent sentences from the point of view of a realist. He will forgive me for saying in all good faith that I find the woolly labyrinth easier to understand than the pungent sentences of the realist.
As the right hon. Member for Darwen pointed out, the Debate has divided itself into two streams. On the one hand there have been a series of speeches which
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have shown that the speakers are radically opposed to the signing of the Optional Clause at all. The speech of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) showed that he viewed the signing of the Clause, altogether apart from the Amendment, with misgivings, and the questions he addressed to me were not concerned, or not mainly concerned, with this particular Amendment. Even if the speeches had been limited to the Amendment, we on this side of the House should have had a lurking suspicion that really at the back of them all was a fundamental dislike to the Optional Clause as a whole. It is idle to ask us to forget that this topic has been debated before on the Floor of the House. We cannot forget all the reasons we have heard against the signing of the Optional Clause. There was the unfortunate fact that the Dominions would not come into line. We were able to sign the Locarno Pact without the Dominions; a Pact which in a certain event might cause us to take up arms, but, apparently, we are not able to sign without their consent a Pact which sends disputes to arbitration. That excuse has now gone.
Then we were told, and it has been repeated to-day, that international law is too vague; that you do not know what the decision will be. The hon. and gallant Member for Warwick and Leamington (Captain Eden) asked us to wait until we have codification. I have had more years' experience than the hon. and gallant Member in the law, and every lawyer will agree with me that British Common Law has been in existence for something like 600 years. Does anybody say that British Common Law is certain? Before I accepted my present office my practice at the Bar mainly consisted in arguing points of common law, and some of those points of law frequently went to the highest Court in this country, and were frequently decided by a majority of one. And that after 600 years! What we are trying to do by signing this Optional Clause is to help towards a codification of the law, and you will find the best codification of international law for this purpose in a sentence contained in Article 16 of the Covenant. It is also said that the difference between the Anglo-Saxon and Continental schools of law is acute on

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this topic. As a student of the prize cases arising out of the last war I think it is true to say that the divergence between the principles established in this country and the principles claimed by the United States are greater than the divergencies between this country and Continental countries.
For instance, on the matter to which the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson) referred, the very important matter of visit and search, and the question as to whether you can send a ship into a port to be searched, we contended that we could. The United States contended that we could not, and that visit and search should take place at sea. To-day, all the Continental nations have committed themselves to our point of view. In other cases arising out of the War there has been no great divergence with regard to belligerent rights between this country and the Continental jurists.
The next argument we heard was to this effect: "We are prepared to arbitrate with some people, but we are not prepared to arbitrate with other people. What we should do is not to lay down any general principle, but make up our minds, as and when the dispute arises, as to whether we are to arbitrate or not." Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that to adopt such procedure as that is to lay ourselves open to the taunt, "Yes, you will arbitrate when you think you are in the right, but when you think you have a bad case you will not arbitrate but will go and do whatever you choose." We want to put ourselves in the right by making it clear that this country is not prepared to take any action which it cannot support and substantiate before a fair, just and impartial tribunal.
The right hon. Member for Croydon South asked me various questions. I would venture most respectfully to point out to him that he is still too imbued with the experience which he had at the time of the late War to realise what a fundamental change there has been. His criticism was all based on and was all applicable to the old private war. If we were still in the region of the old private war, I should concede at once that there is great force in his criticism, but it is be-
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cause we believe that private war has been abolished, not only by the Covenant but by the combined effect of the Covenant and the Pact, that we decline to apply to public war the same principles as were in the past applied to private war. In the limited time available let me answer the questions put to me. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham asked me first of all with regard to that portion of the Clause which states:
"…all disputes arising after the ratification of the present Declaration with regard to situations or facts subsequent to the said ratification."
The right hon. Gentleman gave as an illustration—it was plain that he took it merely as an illustration, because the matter was all over and done with years ago—this sort of question: Suppose that the Venezuelan boundary dispute was still alive and had not been settled. It had been the subject of controversy for some years and was not settled. That being the situation, this Clause is signed. Where do we stand? I think there is really very little doubt at all. The right hon. Gentleman will observe that to come within the Clause there must be two-things. There must be, first of all, a dispute arising after ratification, and secondly, that dispute must be with regard to a situation subsequent to the ratification. Let me answer the Venezuelan point. I venture to assert that there is very little doubt at all that the first qualification is not satisfied. The dispute in that case, it is manifest, arose before ratification and, equally, I should say that it fails to come within the second qualification. Remember that it must come within both. I should say that the situation which was there complained of was manifestly a situation which did not arise subsequent to ratification. The situation existed before ratification even if it survived and continued after ratification. Therefore I am able to answer the right hon. Gentleman—I need hardly say, not without having taken counsel with others who are in a position to advise on the subject—and I am able to tell him that no doubt is felt, and, I am bound to say that I share that view, that such a case as that would not be within the Clause.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me a second question, and again he gave art illustration which was merely a hypo-

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thetical and convenient illustration. That was in relation to the question of the reservation of disputes with regard to questions which, by international law, fall exclusively within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. The illustration which the right hon. Gentleman gave was some dispute in connection with Malta, and he asked me whether, in my view, such a dispute could be said to be exclusively within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. My answer is: Yes, it could be so said. When we speak in this reservation of the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, the right hon. Gentleman will observe that we are speaking of this jurisdiction from the international standpoint. It is manifest in the reservation that it refers to disputes with regard to questions which, by international law, fall exclusively within our jurisdiction. As far as international law is concerned, Malta does fall exclusively within our jurisdiction. Malta is a colony, and, as far as the foreign relations of Malta are concerned, we and we alone are responsible. If any foreign country had any complaint arising out of these foreign relations, it would be with this Government, and with this Government only, that those disputes would have to be taken up. Therefore—again after having taken counsel with my advisers—I am able to say that their view confirms my own view, and that the answer in this case is that such a dispute would be exclusively within our jurisdiction.
The right hon. Gentleman made another statement. I am not sure if he cast it in the form of a question, or indeed if it is a question which admits of any answer. He said that, in asking the House to authorise the ratification of the Optional Clause, we were, in some way, differentiating adversely against the United States. I am most anxious that it should not go forth from this House even that that is the view which the right hon. Gentleman from this side of the House forms of what we are doing. May I point out that it takes two people to agree to an arbitration? As far as we art; concerned, there is nothing that we should like better than to agree to arbitrate with everybody. But that depends on being able to arrive at precise agreements with everybody to arbitrate. We are saying that, on the basis of reciprocity, we will agree to arbitrate with anybody who will
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agree to arbitrate with us. If other people, for any reason, do not choose to avail themselves of that offer, it is surely unfair to say that we are differentiating adversely against them.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I did not make my point clear to the hon. and learned Gentleman. What I said was, that if you accept this obligation as members of the League and refuse to put it in an arbitration treaty with the United States, you make an invidious discrimination against the United States. On the other hand, if, as you now say, you would gladly put it into a treaty with the United States, then we have none of the protection which the right hon. Gentleman drew from the provisions of the Covenant.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I pointed out that if the United States chose to sign the Optional Clause, as they could do if they liked—[Interruption.] The next question he asked was in regard to a small State next to a big one. He pointed out that the small State might be too frightened to carry out its obligations under Article 16, but that notwithstanding that the small State might take us to The Hague Court. What, he asked, would be the position there? Surely, The Hague Court would not be concerned with the question as to whether the small State was carrying out its obligations; The Hague Court would be concerned with the question whether those obligations existed. The small State would not be in a better position because it was not carrying out obligations which it had undertaken, and I would point out, with regard to Article 16, that with regard to military measures there may be some measure of doubt, but could anything be clearer than this? This is the obligation undertaken by Article 16. This is why I was able to say that this enshrines what the new principle of international law was to be as between members of the League. The League members
"hereby undertake immediately to subject it"—
that is, the State committing the act of war—
"to the severance of all trade or financial relations, the prohibition of all intercourse between their nationals and the nationals of the covenant-breaking State, and the prevention of all financial, commercial or personal intercourse between the nationals of the covenant-breaking State and the nationals of any other State."

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Your little State which, on the hypothesis of the right hon. Gentleman, takes itself to the Hague Court has undertaken this obligation and cannot excuse itself from the consequences of that obligation by any other consideration whatever.
I have not much time, but I am anxious to answer all the questions put to me in the course of the Debate so far as I can remember them. I come now to the hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin), who asked me what is the meaning of the phrase:
"Disputes with the Government of any other member of the League which is a member of the British Commonwealth of Nations."
I ventured to hope that at any rate those words were clear. Although law, as I have already said, is a somewhat uncertain thing, and the results attendant on law are uncertain, at least this much is certain about law, that you always know the name of the person you are litigating against. The reservation is "Disputes with," and although we have the greatest admiration for the Hague Court, we feel that we ought to be able to settle our own difficulties among ourselves. We do not intend, therefore, to allow the Court to settle a dispute between this country and another member of the British Commonwealth of Nations.
The second question the hon. Member asked me was in regard to the third reservation:
"Disputes with regard to questions which by international law fall exclusively within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom."
He asked whether I have any precise view as to the meaning of those words. The words were intended to mean, and I think do mean, precisely the same as the words which he will find in Article 15 of the Covenant, namely, the words "solely within the domestic jurisdiction of that party." So far as the adverb is concerned, I think even his ingenious mind would be the last to suggest a distinction between "exclusively" and "solely." There may be difference of opinion as to what an adjective may mean, but I do not appreciate the distinction between "within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom" and "within the domestic jurisdiction of the United Kingdom," because the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom must be a domestic jurisdiction. Therefore, my answer is that, as far as I
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am aware, the intention with which the words were there inserted has been carried out. They have struck out an unnecessary adjective and substituted another and equally good adverb, with the result that the words are the same.
I have dealt with the two questions that were put to me. I now come to the conundrum which the right hon. Gentleman opposite put to me, and with which he asked me to deal precisely. He said this: "In 1924 the Foreign Secretary thought it right to insert a certain qualification." The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that I am not quite certain he appreciated what the qualification was. It was not a general qualification but a qualification which, in terms, applied, and applied only, assuming we were waging war on behalf of the League. As the hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin) has pointed out in the course of this discussion, that very important and cardinal point has been obscured more than once. But the right hon. Gentleman asks me this question: "If it was right to insert that in 1924, how can it be right to leave it out in 1930? The Covenant has not been changed, and the words of the Covenant are the same, and in regard to the Pact, although it has been signed, the Pact says nothing about it. All this springs from the Covenant." That is the situation and the question which I understand the right hon. Gentleman to put to me.
I would point out that, although the Covenant has not been changed, what has happened is this: One of the gaps which existed in the Covenant had been stopped by the Pact. The weakness of the Covenant as it existed before the Pact was that there was an event, in which private war could exist, and as long as you had the event in which private war could exist, it was no doubt dangerous and, perhaps, impossible to accept a principle and lay down a canon which, though primarily right as regards public war, might get you into trouble as regards private war. I have not the slightest doubt that my right hon. Friend thought there was something to be said for that in 1924, but now the effect of the Pact is this: As between members of the League, if we carry out our obligations, there can be no such thing as private war. It cannot exist and, that being so, we can now apply another principle and another canon. We can apply, as a principle,

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a principle which is perfectly sound in the case of public war, and we need no longer consider private war.
The whole speech of the right hon. Gentleman and the whole of the arguments he adduced, proceeded on the assumption that there really had been no fundamental change and that the sort of war which we might have to meet in future was the same sort of war as we had to meet in the past. May I put this to him? He was frank enough to admit that we could be quite certain in this House, whether the Government come from this side or from that, that if we do wage war in future, it will not be a war waged in breach of our obligations to the Covenant, or our obligations to the Pact. That is why I say we can assume, no matter from what quarter the Government may be drawn, that it would be a public war, and not a private war. Being a public war and not a private war, it is a case in which we ought to be only too glad to avail ourselves of the privilege conferred upon us by Article 16, when we shall find ourselves with all other members of the League ranged alongside us to fight a common battle, under the auspices of the League—a public war against the Covenant breaking State and the wrong-doer. All the other members of the League will be bound to take the steps which I have already indicated, and in these circumstances, surely it is only right that we should in this case be prepared to take a risk, if risk it be; as the right hon. Gentleman below the Gangway has said on more than one occasion, why should you not be prepared to take a risk for peace? If it is a fact that since 1924 we have changed and advanced, why
should we be ashamed of taking another step along the road of peace? I hope that every ordinary person in the course of six years grows wiser than he was six years ago. I do not suppose that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will merely maintain his high standard of excellence in six years time; I think that he will surpass himself.
Let it be clear that the Prize Court, even as administered in the past in this country, is not a mere branch of the Executive. It is a Court of Law administering international law, not administering what it thinks convenient to a naval power, but an independent court. We saw in the Great War, in the passion and turmoil of the War, Germans coming over here to obtain justice from the British Prize Court. Yet it always seems to me to have one weakness. As important as justice itself is the necessity for maintaining the appearance of justice, and what has always been weak about our British Prize Court is that it is drawn exclusively from citizens of this country. I am glad to think we are going, in place of that Prize Court, to have a great international court whose wisdom and justice we can fully and freely trust; I am glad to think that at last in 1930 we are taking another definite step forward along the road of peace, and I am thankful to see that the nations of the world are following our example. This country must lead the van in peace as in everything else.
Question put, "That those words be there added."
The House divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 278.

Division No. 119.]

AYES.

[10.59 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.

Collen, Major J. Brunel

Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

Boyce, H. L.

Colville, Major D. J.

Albery, Irving James

Bracken, B.

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)

Brass, Captain Sir William

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

Briscoe, Richard George

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopoid C. M. S.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Cranbourne, Viscount

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Atholl, Duchess of

Bullock, Captain Malcolm

Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

Atkinson, C.

Butler, R. A.

Croom-Johnson, R. P.

Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Castle Stewart, Earl of

Dalkeith, Earl of

Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

Balniel, Lord

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Beaumont, M. W.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Berry, Sir George

Chapman, Sir S.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

Christle, J. A.

Dixey, A. C.

Bird, Ernest Roy

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Eden, Captain Anthony

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

Elliot, Major Walter E.

Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

Savery, S. S.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Little, Dr. E. Graham

Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Ferguson, Sir John

Long, Major Eric

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)

Fermoy, Lord

Lymington, Viscount

Skelton, A. N.

Fielden, E. B.

Macquisten, F. A.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Fison, F. G. Clavering

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Margesson, Captain H. D.

Smithers, Waldron

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Marjoribanks, E. C.

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Meller, R. J.

Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

Southby, Commander A. R. J.

Gibson, C. G (Pudsey & Otley)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

Gower, Sir Robert

Mond, Hon. Henry

Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)

Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

Tinne, J. A.

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Greene, W P. Crawford

Muirhead, A. J.

Todd, Capt. A. J.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Turton, Robert Hugh

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

Hammersley, S. S.

Peake, Captain Osbert

Warrender, Sir Victor

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Penny, Sir George

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Wayland, Sir William A.

Haslam, Henry C.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Wells, Sydney R.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Purbrick, R.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Ramsbotham, H.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Reid, David D. (County Down)

Withers, Sir John James

Hurd, Percy A.

Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)

Womersley, W. J.

Iveagh, Countess of

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Kindersley, Major G. M.

Ross, Major Ronald D.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Lamb, Sir J. Q.

Salmon, Major I.

Commander Sir B. Eyres Monsell

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

and Major Sir George Hennessy.

Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Chater, Daniel

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Church, Major A. G.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Cluse, W. S.

Gray, Milner

Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro)

Cocks, Frederick Seymour

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Alpass, J. H.

Compton, Joseph

Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

Ammon, Charles George

Cove, William G.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Angell, Norman

Cowan, D. M.

Groves, Thomas E

Arnott, John

Daggar, George

Grundy, Thomas W.

Aske, Sir Robert

Dallas, George

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Attlee, Clement Richard

Dalton, Hugh

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Ayles, Walter

Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)

Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)

Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Harbord, A.

Barnes, Alfred John

Dickson, T.

Hardie, George D.

Batey, Joseph

Dukes, C.

Harris, Percy A.

Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

Duncan, Charles

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

Ede, James Chuter

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

Edge, Sir William

Haycock, A. W.

Benson, G.

Edmunds, J. E.

Hayday, Arthur

Bentham, Dr. Ethel

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Hayes, John Henry

Birkett, W. Norman

Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

Egan, W. H.

Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

Bowen, J. W.

Elmley, Viscount

Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Herriotts, J.

Broad, Francis Alfred

Foot, Isaac

Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

Bromley, J.

Forgan, Dr. Robert

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Brothers, M.

Freeman, Peter

Hoffman, P. C.

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

Hollins, A.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N)

Horrabin, J. F.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Hudson, James H (Huddersfield)

Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)

Hunter, Dr. Joseph

Buchanan, G.

Gibbins, Joseph

Isaacs, George

Burgin, Dr. E. L.

Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

Gill, T. H.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Cameron, A. G.

Gillett, George M.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)

Cape, Thomas

Glassey, A. E.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

Gossling, A. G.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Charleton, H. C.

Gould, F.

Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

776

777

Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

Morley, Ralph

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Simmons, C. J.

Kelly, W. T.

Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)

Kennedy, Thomas

Motley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Kinley, J.

Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)

Kirkwood, D.

Muff, G.

Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

Knight, Holford

Murnin, Hugh

Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

Nathan, Major H. L.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Lang, Gordon

Naylor, T. E.

Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

Lathan, G.

Noel Baker, P. J.

Snell, Harry

Law, A. (Rosendale)

Oldfield, J. R.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Lawrence, Susan

Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

Lawson, John James

Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

Sorensen, R.

Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

Stamford, Thomas W.

Leach, W.

Palin, John Henry

Stephen, Campbell

Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

Paling, Wilfrid

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

Palmer, E. T.

Strauss, G. R.

Lees, J.

Perry, S. F.

Sullivan, J.

Lewis, T. (Southampton)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Sutton, J. E.

Lindley, Fred W.

Phillips, Dr. Mar on

Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

Lloyd, C. Ellis

Picton-Turbervill, Edith

Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

Longbottom, A. W.

Pole, Major D. G.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Longden, F.

Potts, John S.

Thurtle, Ernest

Lovat-Fraser. J. A.

Pybus, Percy John

Tillett, Ben

Lowth, Thomas

Quibell, D. J. K.

Tinker, John Joseph

Lunn, William

Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

Tout, W. J.

Logan, David Gilbert

Rathbone, Eleanor

Townend, A. E.

Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

Raynes, W. R.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Richards, R.

Turner, B.

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Vaughan, D. J.

McElwee, A.

Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

Viant, S. P.

McEntee, V. L.

Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Walker, J.

MacLaren, Andrew

Ritson, J.

Wallace, H. W.

Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

Romeril, H. G.

Watkins, F. C.

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Rosbotham, D. S. T.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

McShane, John James

Rowson, Guy

Wellock, Wilfred

Malone, C. L' Estrange (N'thampton)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Welsh, James (Paisley)

Mander, Geoffrey le M.

Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

West, F. R.

Mansfield, W.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

March, S.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

Markham, S. F.

Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

Marley, J.

Sanders, W. S.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Mathers, George

Sandham, E.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Matters, L. W.

Sawyer, G. F.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Maxton, James

Scrymgeour, E.

Wilson, J. (Oldham)

Melville, Sir James

Scurr, John

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Messer, Fred

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

Middleton, G.

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

Millar, J. D.

Sherwood, G. H.

Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

Mills, J. E.

Shield, George William

Milner, J.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Montague, Frederick

Shillaker, J. F.

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. B.

Morgan Dr. H. B.

Shinwell, E.

Smith.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,
"That this House approves the ratification of the Declaration under Article 36 of the Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, signed at Geneva in respect of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the 19th day of September, 1929."

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  REPORT [21ST JANUARY].
  Resolution reported;

  SUPPLY.
    CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1929.
      CLASS V.

        MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
        "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,150,000, be granted to His Majesty,
        778
        to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Labour and Subordinate Departments, including the Exchequer Contribution to the Unemployment Fund, Grants to Associations, Local Education Authorities, and others under the Unemployment Insurance, Labour Exchanges, and other Acts; Expenses of the Industrial Court: Contribution towards the Expenses of the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations); Expenses of Training and Transference of Workpeople and their Families within Great Britain and Oversea; and sundry services, including services arising out of the War."
        Resolution read a Second time.
        Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
        Captain CROOKSHANK: I want to enter my protest once again against the

        779
        attitude of the Minister of Labour. This is not the first occasion on which I have had to trouble the House on this subject, for on another occasion, when the right hon. Lady was moving an almost equally large Supplementary Estimate, she spoke for about 3½ minutes only, and on this occasion she has not seen fit to address the House at all. I think it shows the utmost disrespect on the part of the right hon. Lady in dealing with this House. It is idle for her or anyone on the Government Bench to come down and expect to get the Report stage of a Supplementary Estimate of this magnitude without a word of explanation. Even in the Committee stage, with which, after all, as a House we are not concerned, the right hon. Lady only spoke rather late in the evening. I want, not only to enter my protest, but to offer a few observations to the right hon. Lady, and to give her at any rate the opportunity of saying a few words before we adjourn.
        This is an Estimate for over £4,000,000, and there are one or two points in it with regard to which I should like some explanation. I should like also to make some allusion to the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in Committee. In the first part of this Estimate, under Sub-head A, the right hon. Lady is taking the sum of £300,000 for the purpose, among other things, of dealing with increased activity in placing men in employment, especially from the distressed areas. My constituency, since the Labour Government have come into office, happens to be a depressed area, and I should like some information with regard to Gainsborough itself, and as to what amount of expenditure is going to be provided to help to relieve the great industrial depression that we have in our town. It has come to a head since the right hon. Lady has been responsible for the Ministry of Labour.
        I also want to ask the right hon. Lady what exactly she meant when she said in Committee that she has assumed, in the case of many of these Estimates, that during the next three or four months there will be no great decrease in unemployment. It is a very grim look-out for the country as a whole that the right hon. Lady should come down and say calmly that for the next three or four
        780
        months, when most of us had hoped for some improvement in the situation, there was not likely to be any great decrease in the existing figures. I should like to know whether the right hon. Lady's information with regard to the probable course of unemployment is entirely at variance with the hopes which have been expressed by the Lord Privy Seal. We have been led all along to expect, ever since the Government first took office that the primary subject to which they would give their attention was unemployment and that is why I am asking on what sort of grounds she is basing this deplorable estimate that things are not going to improve. In three or four months she has taken about £300,000 in increased activity, whatever that may mean, in placing in work people who are out of work. The whole burden of the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy the other day was, What can you expect from us after a brief period of seven months? That was the bitter complaint. He was very humble. He was no longer the proud person we used to know. They were not prepared to be judged by their adherents so far. Great things were about to happen, yet speaking an hour and a half later, the right hon. Lady said she did not expect any improvement in the next three or four months.
        I had the curiosity to turn up a Debate that took place—I thought I should find something interesting—when the late Government had been in office seven months, and I wondered whether that had been the attitude of hon. Gentlemen who sit on that bench. I found a very different case then. We were being bitterly attacked because unemployment was getting worse. I do not think this is at all a matter for taunts across the Floor. It is a matter that far transcends any issue of party politics because it is the greatest industrial calamity that can befall any country, and that is why I deplore the right hon. Lady's statement. I invite her to tell us what this increased activity in finding jobs is going to be. The Secretary of State for War, on 28th May, 1925, said:
        "On the 18th instant there were 164,000 more men unemployed than at this time last year. Surely any Government after that time of office ought to be able to make some definite statement instead of perfectly

        781
        indefinite generalities which lead us nowhere and give us no hope at all."
        If the right hon. Lady's predecessor could talk like that after seven months with regard to my right hon. Friend as to an increase of 164,000, what are we to say to her increase of 285,000? That is the figure she gave on the 23rd of this month. The difference that the right hon. Lady has to face compared with a year ago is 285,000, and the figure which was thrown across the Floor of the House at the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) was 164,000. I will repeat with more emphasis what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War said, that surely any Government after seven months' office ought to be able to make some definite statement instead of indefinite generalities which lead us nowhere and give us no hope at all. I am not surprised that the right hon. Lady sits silent and does not take the trouble to introduce her own Supplementary Estimate on the Report stage. It is because she has nothing to say to face up to a situation as serious as this. I object to passing a Supplementary Estimate of this kind at all. I object to any expenditure of this kind because I am convinced that one of the contributory causes of the increase of unemployment is the way this Government are piling up bills which the taxpayers and the industries as a whole have to bear. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheer up!"] If the hon. Gentleman's constituency were in such a bad way as my constituency he would probably feel the same as I do about the matter.
        It is because the present Government are piling up these bills—here we have an extra £4,000,000 on this account that I object to the attitude which the right hon. Lady adopts. If she wants to do something to stimulate employment she ought to use what influence she has with her colleagues to try to persuade them not to ask for further expenditure. She ought to try and get at the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he is to be got at by anybody, and persuade him to be adamant in regard to fresh Supplementary Estimates or any kind of fresh expenditure by this House. I believe she would have considerable support if she did this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, all the time he was in opposition, was always saying that sort of thing, but to-day he
        782
        is acting in an entirely different manner. He used to come and tell us that if only the Government of the day would spend their time in bringing in Bills for afforestation and land drainage they would be doing some good for unemployment. He said that if such plans as that were adopted it would cost money, but the Government preferred to give it in the form of a miserable dole to keep men from work. This was the kind of thing he used to say about the right hon. Member for Tamworth. It was the sort of thing that, with every justification, we can say about the right hon. Lady and her Friends on the Front bench. If she would not bring in Supplementary Estimates like the present one there might be a chance of getting these unfortunate men and women back at the jobs they so greatly desire. There does not seem to be any prospect of that taking place. I invite her to spend this money for which she is asking, if it must be spent, in increasing activities so as to place men in employment, and above all to devote her attentions in this connection to the constituency which I have the honour to represent.
        Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: I want to ask one or two questions, the first in regard to the item of £600,000 for the training of unemployed men. In my constituency there are a very large number of young men who are out of work. I think I am right in saying that this week the unemployment figures in the City of Hull are higher than they have ever been before, with the exception of the week immediately succeeding the general strike. They are higher than anybody would have believed to be possible, because they did not realise the potentialities of a Socialist Government in the way of producing unemployment. What does the Minister of Labour propose to do in the training of these unemployed men? What is being done at the present time is a mere drop in the ocean in regard to the needs of the situation. That great city has been very heavily hit during the past four or five years. Several of the great industries there are suffering from trade depression to an abnormal extent. We have the shipbuilding trade as one of the chief trades in the city. The shipbuilding trade is in a worse position than

        783
        it has ever been before. The young men who were apprenticed to that industry and have been brought up to the trade, and whose fathers and grandfathers have been employed in the trade, now find themselves trained to an industry in which there is no work. What is being done for these young men?
        The same argument applies to the fishing industry. The trawling industry has been badly hit, no doubt due to the dumping of foreign fish in the city, which in many cases has been caught in waters where our fishermen are prohibited from going, and is sold in our markets at prices with which our men cannot compete, which has had the effect of reducing employment in the fishing trade to an alarming extent. Young men who have been brought up to this industry find themselves without occupation. What is being done to train them for some fresh trade? The coal exporting trade, which employed before the War a very large number of people, has been in a most distressed and pitiable condition for many years. Things are not so bad in that trade because the young men are not specially trained to the work which that industry provides, but the young men in the trade are waiting for work and training which have not yet been found for them. What does the right hon. Lady intend to do in that direction? How does she intend to spend the £100,000 which we are voting in this Supplementary Estimate? I hope that she will give me some facts and figures of what has been done or will be done in Hull.
        Major ELLIOT: I want to put a few points to the Minister chiefly arising out of our Debate on this Supplementary Estimate when it was in Committee. We made some criticisms against the administration of the Government, more particularly pointing out the great rise in the unemployment figures which had taken place in the winter season, and the fact that this rise in the unemployment figures was not preceded, as were the other rises in previous winters, by any drop in the figures immediately before Christmas. We pointed out that this seemed to show that the positive side of the Government's policy was proving a complete failure. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster spoke in defence
        784
        of the positive side of the Government's programme, and made a soothing speech saying that he could not give any details of what was being done, and that one could not expect any very great reduction in the unemployment figures from the Government at present; in office. That is not what we complain of; what we complain of is the increase in the unemployment figures.
        During the Committee stage we pointed out that the figures available showed that they were 20,000 above the figure when a reactionary Tory Government was in power a year ago. The Minister of Labour is in a difficult position. She has to answer for the sins of the Government and they do very little to assist her in these Debates. Their assistance is confined to an occasional intervention by the Secretary of State for War who can always be trusted for half an hour's interruption in a Debate in which he intervenes. We pointed out that owing to the action of the Government the unemployment figures would probably increase. What are the figures for the week ending 13th January, which were not published during the Committee stage. In the few days which have elapsed since they have gone 40,000 above what they were when a reactionary Tory Government was in power, and we are entitled to call the attention of the House to them. Far from the Government bringing down the number of the unemployed, what we have to blame them for is the extraordinary rapidity with which they are bringing them up, not only because of an absence of policy but by their positive constructive acts. The vagueness and indefiniteness of the various departments in making their administrative decisions is increasing the number of the unemployed in many departments which the Government can influence. I quoted figures in the building trade and the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) was the only Member who dared to comment upon them. He admitted that it was one of the gravest accusations which could be laid against the Government and urged that steps should be taken to deal with the situation. The figures for housing have fallen considerably, and the number of persons unemployed has increased during the last year.
        Mr. BUCHANAN: I should have thought the hon. and gallant Member, being an intelligent reader of the West of Scotland journals, would have seen the reply in this week's paper.
        Major ELLIOT: The hon. Member is no doubt referring to the "Forward." It is true that a reply is attempted, but it is fallacious. They have misread the report. I gave the figures for houses under construction, and they have misread it as the figure for houses constructed, which is quite a different matter. Their comment, therefore, is entirely beside the point and did not deal with the question, which I am sure the hon. Member for Gorbals will agree still remains, the great fall in the number of houses under construction. If a Labour Government could have been expected to accelerate anything, surely it was house construction. The Minister of Labour, in attempting to deal with the point, said:
        "The hon. and gallant Member omitted entirely to take into account factors which, have influenced the situation. There was first of all the fact of the expiration of the subsidy under the 1923 Act, which caused a cessation of the compilation of statistics; we no longer get reports as to the extent of private building."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st January, 1930; col. 124, Vol. 234.]
        Yet I had been careful to point out in the figures I gave that I was dealing only with municipal building. Therefore, the fact that the Minister no longer gets reports of private building does not matter. The figures with regard to municipal building showed a falling off in the 1923 houses; they showed a falling off in the Wheatley houses. The Minister said it was because of the uncertainty in connection with the Wheatley policy. But, she added, the turn of the tide had taken place, the number of authorisations was greatly increasing, and consequently there would be a very great increase in the number of houses, under construction and built. The Minister pins her faith on the fact that we shall see a large extension of municipal house building over the figures which were available for the period when the previous Minister of Health and his Parliamentary Secretary held control. That is a prophecy, and we shall be very interested to see the result of it. All that one can say is that while it is
        786
        quite true that the number of authorisations in December, 1929, is large—it is 9,261—the number of authorisations in December, 1928, if you take the 1923 and 1924 Acts together, was 9,904. Consequently, the increase which the Minister claims in December last is an increase only if you leave out of account altogether the houses being built under the 1923 Act. In fact the Minister's only excuse is, "It is quite true that we are doing poorly in municipal house-building, but poor old private enterprise is going to carry it through."
        Mr. BECKETT: On a point of Order. Is it in order, on a Supplementary Estimate, to have a general survey of the unemployment problem, especially with regard to housing?
        Mr. SPEAKER: No; it is not in order to have a general Debate on the unemployment problem, but it is in order to point to the reasons for the increase in the unemployment.
        Mr. BECKETT: I hope that means that we shall be able to have a really good examination of the causes of unemployment?
        Mr. SPEAKER: As far as they are the increase in the number of unemployed which necessitates this Supplementary Estimate.
        Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: I take it that we shall be able only to go into the faults of the Government? We shall not be able to go into the merits of capitalism?
        Mr. SPEAKER: I shall have to hear what arguments are used.
        Major ELLIOT: I was about to point out that there had been, in fact, a falling off in the activities which were in progress under the Conservative Government. The Minister did her best to justify that position. That was not her only defence. She said "We are doing a lot of work in other places. At Whipsnade we are building more 'Zoo's.' Houses for men are fewer, but 160 people are employed at Whipsnade building sheds for the llamas." A land fit for llamas to live in! That is a very constructive measure. The Minister told us what a remarkable idea this was and how it would be a real help in connection with the transfer schemes. I submit that it

        787
        shows a poverty of ideas and proposals, when the Minister in justifying a £4,000,000 Estimate has to devote quite a portion of her defence to the fact that the Government are enlarging "Zoo's" in the rural areas of England. This weakness is evident to a great many other observers. In one journal there was a very interesting article which went into the proposals of the Government and the ideas which were being submitted for dealing with the unemployment problem. He said:
        "Mr. MacDonald cannot plead in justification of his failure that he was only partially conscious of the magnitude of the issue. He cannot plead that its ramifications were not properly understood, for the promises which he and his party dangled before the electorate were far-reaching and explicit. Labour pledged itself in set terms to face up to the realities of the situation which for four years Mr. Baldwin's Government had ignored. Now, after seven months of temporising and evasion, the promises are coming home to roost."
        Who wrote that? [An HON. MEMBER: "Wee Macgregor!"] That is a very interesting suggestion but it is not correct. The person who wrote that passage is the person who has just been appointed, at a large salary, by the Prime Minister as his economic adviser.
        Mr. BUCHANAN: What is the name? There is some doubt as to who it is, and we on this side are not quite so well informed as the hon. and gallant Member.
        Major ELLIOT: That passage is from the "Nation" and the editor of the "Nation," I understand, has recently been added to the economic staff—
        Mr. BECKETT: The Prime Minister, in reply to a question to-day explicitly denied that there was any authority whatever for that statement.
        Major ELLIOT: The right hon. Gentleman said he could not say. But I am quite willing to leave it on the authority of the Editor of the "Nation"—[An HON. MEMBER: "The late editor"]—and to say that, as far as one can tell, the opinion of the late editor of the "Nation" has been very highly thought of by the Prime Minister and the party opposite. His opinion has been consulted on many occasions and all one can say is that the fact that that journal has denounced in scathing terms the Unemployment Insurance Bill and the policy of the
        788
        Government on unemployment insurance, is one of the surest signs that a conversion is shortly to take place and that the author of the lines will be found among the consultants of the Government either on the Front Bench or in the official gallery. The fact remains that the Government are asking for a large sum of money; that the money is for non-constructive purposes and that the Government, so far, have not succeeded even in the policy outlined during the Committee stage of this Vote—the policy of short-term works to fill up the gap while their long-range schemes are being got under way. So far from falling, the figures of unemployment are rising, and all the authorities who can be consulted point out the failure in confidence and in business which is taking place. The reports of the great banks come out, and the banks nowadays are the trusted advisers and indeed the prophets from whom the Government take their opinions. The banks say that in the second half of last year business everywhere took a definite turn for the worse. That is the opinion of the business world of the activities of His Majesty's present advisers, and that is reflected in the fact that the unemployment figures before Christmas did not fall, and after Christmas have continued to be above the figures which were current for last year. Even the activities which the Government themselves can directly influence do not show any sign of that grip, that drive, that determination which one would expect from a Government which, as everybody admits, must stand or fall by its record on this vital issue.
        The question of the actual administration of these sums by the Government is in a way of secondary importance. We believe, and the Minister herself has now agreed, that the accusation of administrative persecution, of which certain ill-informed persons, like the present Home Secretary, complained when in Opposition, are entirely unfounded, that the officers of the Ministry do their utmost to deal with, in the most helpful fashion, the problem which has been set to them by an inexorable fate, that they are acting helpfully, sagaciously, and industriously. We have no desire to attack the personnel of the Ministry of Labour. Rather, we attack the policy of His Majesty's advisers, the policy of increasing taxation,

        789
        the policy of vagueness and uncertainty about their legislative proposals, the policy of arrogance, and, indeed, one might almost say the conceit, which makes them conceal their policy with regard to important pieces of future administration, such as their attitude towards the McKenna and the Safeguarding Duties, in a robe of self-righteousness.
        Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): The hon. and gallant Member is getting outside the scope of the Resolution.
        Major ELLIOT: I bow to your ruling, but I claim that in detailing the rise of unemployment and the factors which influence it, I am dealing with facts and tendencies which are absolutely germane to and mostly connected with this Vote. I am not going into details, but I say without hesitation that the failure of the Ministry to deal with unemployment is already a source of the gravest chagrin to their followers, that the realist section at any rate of their own followers realise that in the back streets and in the sections of this country where they draw their most consistent support already a rising tide of criticism is being heard against the action of His Majesty's present advisers. These people know very well that unemployment doles, unemployment administration—
        Mr. R. A. TAYLOR: On a point of Order. May I draw attention to the fact that the hon. and gallant Member's remarks have driven the right hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) to sleep?
        Major ELLIOT: Of course, these interruptions detain us all from our sleep, and I have no doubt that they will increasingly detain us. The people in the back streets, who are bearing a grievous weight of economic depression, know very well that unemployment is a secondary thing compared with employment. It is employment that is their main desire, and it is not being found for them by the present Government. It is being removed farther and farther from them every day by the Government's policy. That policy is promoting unemployment rather than improving employment.
        Mr. BUCHANAN: If criticism is made of the Government for failing to stop the rise in unemployment, it should be
        790
        remembered that the Conservative party also were false prophets. When the De-rating Act was passed, we were promised a reduction in the figures. The Act is being operated, and, so far as de-rating is concerned, there has been a continuity of policy. De-rating is operating without any effect. Then, with regard to the boards of assessors, the last time I raised this matter, I asked if the expenditure was really worth while. No doubt the Minister of Labour will say that in the early months the boards of assessors did show some improvement. I am now convinced that the boards of assessors, in many ways, are now not acting in the benevolent fashion that they did at the start. Far from helping the unemployed, my own experience tends the other way. I attended courts of referees very regularly when I was in the City of Glasgow, and I was able to argue a case and get some sort of satisfaction in the awards. Now, when you go to a court of referees they invariably say: "You have been turned down by your own local people at the Exchange, and we are upholding your own local people." My own view is that now that the first novelty of the boards of assessors has worn off and the agitation has died down, the boards are as bad, and in some cases worse, than the position which existed before. Does the Minister think, with the experience from all parts of the country, that she is still entitled to spend this money on them and that the improvement is such as to make it worth while to continue them?
        In this Estimate, the Minister is making provision for the new Act to come into force. Will she bear in mind that, when the Act was passing through this House, before it went to another place, we were told that six weeks before the operation of the new Act claims would be considered under the proposed new legislation, and that, while she could not operate that before the Bill became an Act, claims could be considered under the machinery of the new Act? Does the right hon. Lady propose to make any statement on that point before 1st February? As she is aware, that date is six weeks before the new Act operates, and large numbers of poor people are wondering whether to make new claims, whether they will be considered as under the new scheme, and whether those which have been cut out under the transitional

        791
        Clause will come under the new Act. Can they at once formulate it? In the interests of the tremendously poor people, it might be as well if we could have some statement to enlighten the large number of poor who are anxiously awaiting some guidance on what were called the transitional Clauses. I hope this point will receive the right hon. Lady's attention, and that if she cannot make a statement now, she will do so on Thursday, when we are considering the other Amendments, and that she will state the rights of the unemployed who are cut off from benefit and have no rights under the present Act.
        Mr. E. BROWN: I would ask the House to observe the facts of the case about Government business. Here we are at five minutes to 12 discussing the Report stage of a Supplementary Estimate for £5,100,000, and at 12 minutes to 12 the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) put two questions which would require a full afternoon to debate. There is on this side of the House an unparalleled tenderness to the Ministers in a lack of discussion of the Estimates, yet on picking up Labour's only organ this morning, we find the most extraordinary assertions being made. I suppose that, with the recollection of the Prime Minister's speech in 1924 about mangey dogs, the editor of the "Daily Herald" in his sub-consciousness talks about dogs in the manger, suggesting that the Government is being hampered in their work by Members below the Gangway, saying nothing about Members above the Gangway; and that we are jettisoning every Measure which they would have brought forward but for the obstruction of Members on this side. I make no apology on this Supplementary Estimate for pointing out the facts. I have never in my life read a bigger set of misstatements in any daily newspaper than the statements contained in that article, and I hope that, since on every occasion Ministers of the Crown have taken advantage of being properly treated by sections of the Opposition to acknowledge it on the Floor of the House, and since we do not intend to detain the Minister to-night, as we might well do for hours, she, speaking for the Ministry—[An HON. MEMBER: "Get on with the job!"] The trouble is not that
        792
        we are not getting on with the job, but that the Labour party outside the House, because they are not getting on with the job, are trying to make other people the scapegoats. Let them get on with the job and not make false accusations about Members of this House who have treated the Government with unexampled kindness and humour in every difficult situation. I ask the right hon. Lady if she as a Minister of the Crown complains of the length of the discussions which she has had to hear on her Measures. Does she complain that we on these seats below the Gangway are like dogs in the manger, and that by the length of our speeches we have held up public business? If she does not, I suggest that she might call the attention of Labour's daily journal to the facts of the case, so that they might state to the country what the facts really are.
        12.0 m.
        Captain AUSTIN HUDSON: I make no apology for saying a few words on this Estimate. When we have an Estimate for £4,150,000 brought up after 11 o'clock, and not even submitted by the Minister of the Department, I really do not see why Members should apologise. I cannot follow the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) because I do not read the paper in question, but I am perfectly certain that the heat which he put into his speech is well justified. One point on this Estimate which I wish to raise on the Minister relates to the "placing" side of the Ministry's work. The Ministry ought to devote more attention to this. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry said there had been 200,000 more placings than was the case a year ago, and if that be so, that is satisfactory. Among the unemployed there is undoubtedly a certain lack of confidence in the "placing" work of the Ministry. I do not say that is the fault of the Ministry, but the feeling exists. I have had letters from men who say they have given up all hope of ever being placed by the Ministry. It may be that in many cases the man is completely unsuitable for the jobs the Ministry has to offer; but at any rate I hope the Ministry will look into this question. At Question time lately we have had several questions put to the Minister of Agriculture as to the number of unemployed in agriculture.
        Mr. SPEAKER: That argument cannot be relevant to this Supplementary Estimate.
        Captain HUDSON: When the Estimate was before us on a previous occasion the Minister said she wanted more money for the Ministry of Labour, and I want to find out if this Estimate covers a sum of money to be spent on placing. I want to know whether the work of the Employment Exchanges covers people who are not in receipt of benefit. I want to ask whether it is not a fact that there are a large number of people not drawing benefit but who do want to get jobs which are on the books of the Exchanges. Therefore, people, such as agricultural labourers, who are not eligible for benefit, can sign on at the Employment Exchange in order to get a job, although they cannot receive benefit. If that is so, why cannot the figures we are asking for be furnished? This question has often been raised on the Vote for the salary of the Minister of Labour, and we have frequently asked whether people sign on who cannot get the benefit and do so in order to get work. I hope the Minister will be able to answer that question, because it raises a matter of importance which has not been cleared up.
        With regard to transfers, a particular sum has been allocated for that purpose. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that he did not wish to draw a comparison in this matter. May I point out that the previous Government were attacked on account of their transfer policy, and this was very hard on some members of the Conservative party who represented districts into which these men were transferred, because objection was taken to this policy by the local men in those districts who were unemployed. The Conservative party agreed to the transfer policy, and now the Labour Government have taken up that policy, although hon. Members opposite oppose it when we put it forward. It is rather remarkable that now not a soul on the benches opposite has objected to the policy of transfer being carried out. Therefore it is not fair to compare our position with that of the Government on this question because we were attacked for the same policy on personal grounds.
        I am convinced that one of the causes of the complete lack of success of the
        794
        Government in attempting to solve the unemployment problem is the bringing forward of enormous Estimates. Besides being a Member of this House I happen to be in business, and I know that business has never been worse than it is at present simply because there is an absolute lack of confidence, and tradesmen state that they cannot give orders until they know what the Budget is going to do. The Government cannot possibly solve the unemployment problem while they are piling up enormous Estimates and spending enormous sums of money upon various kinds of relief works. You cannot expect the people who run businesses, under these circumstances, to risk the expenditure of money with a view to pushing their businesses. Lack of confidence is causing unemployment, which is being made worse by such expenditure as I have foreshadowed. The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) spoke of the de-rating scheme which is in operation at the present moment as being of no use, but not a single hon. Member opposite has said that it is doing any harm.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member is getting rather wide of the Supplementary Estimate.
        Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: The hon. Member for Gorbals was allowed to deal with that subject, and I intended to say a few words upon it. Under the circumstances, I think we might be allowed a little latitude.
        Captain HUDSON: I am sorry that I have transgressed, but it was not my fault. I will only say this. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said that it could not be expected that any effect could be produced on unemployment in seven months, but I think that some effect was expected. This enormous expenditure of money is doing far more harm than good, and if the present policy is continued the unemployment figures are bound to rise. The result of seven months of Socialist government can be seen in the country to-day. As has been pointed out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot), the number of unemployed is 40,000 more than it was at this time last year, and in addition the cost of living is up and

        795
        wages are down. That is the result of Socialism, and I think the country is gradually becoming aware of it.
        Mr. SIMMONS: I am interested in that portion of this Estimate which deals with the training of young unemployed men, a subject which loomed rather large in may Division at the time of the General Election. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir A. Steel-Maitland) claims credit for the initial development of the training scheme, and one is prepared to give him credit for its initiation, but I do not want our Government to make the same mistakes in the training of young unemployed men that were made by the right hon. Gentleman. In addition to money voted by this House, he used money subscribed for a charitable purpose for the training of young unemployed men. I strongly oppose that idea; I think it is our duty as a nation to deal with this problem without sponging on charitable organisations.
        Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: On a point of Order. May I ask what this has to do with the Estimate that we are discussing?
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member who is speaking was just looking at the Estimate, and was coming to the point.
        Mr. SIMMONS: I am dealing with the item of £100,000 which includes the training of young unemployed men, and I am asking, before I give my vote for the expenditure of this £100,000, to be assured that the money will be spent rightly, and not improperly, as it was under the previous Government. The right hon. Gentleman asked, where were the Socialist Members for Birmingham? I suppose he thought we had forgotten this question of the training of young unemployed men. The libel he referred to was a technical error which I merely repeated. The paper with a million circulation that made the initial mistake was not proceeded against and of course the fact that the editor bears the same surname as that borne by one of the new-found business associates of the right hon. Gentlemen may have nothing to do with that fact. Here we have youths who are the sole support of a family, and, before
        796
        those youths are compelled to undergo training, adequate maintenance should be given to their families while they are undergoing that training.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now going far beyond the object of the Supplementary Estimate. His remarks must be confined to the reasons for the expenditure of the £100,000; he cannot go into the whole policy of training unemployed boys.
        Mr. SIMMONS: I am trying to find out whether the £100,000 is merely for the purpose of training, or whether it includes maintenance for the dependants of the trainees while they are away. I hope I am in order in asking that question, and in saying that I do not want to see repeated such cases as we had under the previous Government, when a lad who was the eldest of a family of six was sent away from home to work and was offered 19s. a week, plus 6s. from an outside fund, and had to pay 18s. for his lodgings, leaving 7s. on which to keep his widowed mother and five children. I want to ask the Minister of Labour to see that that kind of thing does not happen in the case of this £100,000. I think that that assurance is necessary, because, although we have a different Minister, the permanent officials are still the same. Their mentality is the same. They cannot help it; it is the result of their training. I want to see a change in that direction. I would like to see men who understand the position of these boys, and the position of these working-class homes, in control of these Departments, and I hope that that point will be dealt with by the Minister.
        Of the sum included in this Estimate, £4,000,000 is a contribution to the wider purposes of the Unemployment Insurance Fund, and I support that unreservedly. I only wish that the sum were larger—large enough to provide more adequate maintenance for unemployed people in this country—
        Mr. SPEAKER: That, again, is a matter of policy, which has been settled already by the House. This is only a Supplementary Estimate because there are more people unemployed.
        Mr. SIMMONS: May I respectfully say that on this Vote I have listened to dis-

        797
        cussions which appeared to be very wide of the question? I am trying to relate this £4,000,000, which we are asked to vote for the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Bill, in order to carry on the unemployment insurance scheme, owing to the increased figures that have been mentioned on the other side of the House, to the adequacy of the provisions for maintenance. As you have ruled that out of order, I will go on to say that I believe that the plea which we have heard from the other side of the House, that this money is a burden on industry, is not a sincere plea. This money is not a burden on industry—
        Mr. SPEAKER: That is not in order on this Vote. This is merely a Supplementary Estimate, asking the House to agree to the larger sum that is necessary.
        Mr. BECKETT: May I point out, Sir, that the hon. Member for Lindsey, who started this Debate, spent a long time in trying to convince the House that this is a burden on industry? Surely, my hon. Friend is entitled to reply to that?
        Mr. SPEAKER: I do not know whether the hon. Member is referring to the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank)—
        Mr. BECKETT: Yes, Sir.
        Mr. SPEAKER: I listened very carefully to the hon. and gallant Member, and was ready to call him to order should he be out of order, but I could not find that he was. He confined his remarks to the question of there being a greater number of unemployed, and that certainly is in order on this Vote.
        Mr. SIMMONS: I was merely replying to the statement made from the other side that this £4,000,000 was an unfair burden upon industry. I am supporting this Vote because I do not believe that it is an unfair burden on industry. I' think it is simply asking industry to bear what it ought to bear, namely, the results of its own operations—
        Mr. SPEAKER: I have told the hon. Member that he is not in order in dealing with that point, and I hope he will not repeat it again.
        Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I think that most of us will have considerable sympathy with the hon. Member for Erdington (Mr. Simmons) in regard to the first part
        798
        of his speech, in which he referred to the transference scheme. After all, he is comparatively young. He is not like the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Office of Works; he has not had a lot of practice in swallowing; and I suppose it has been very difficult for him during the week-ends to go back and explain to his constituents this excellent transference scheme for which we are asked to vote this money.
        Mr. SIMMONS: On a point of Order. Are the patronising remarks of the hon. Member opposite in order on this Vote?
        Mr. WILLIAMS: I was trying as nicely as I could to explain to the hon. Gentleman opposite that I had some sorrow for his youthful innocence. I have no desire to take up the time of the House, except to say that I bitterly regret that the Government, owing to their gross incompetence and entire lack of skill in the management of business, should bring in an Estimate of this kind at this time of the night. It is a gross abuse of the proceedings of the House of Commons that an Estimate dealing with such vitally important subjects as the transference of workers and preparations for emigration should be disposed of at this juncture. Although it is supposed that these provisions will help the unemployed, it is doubtful whether ultimately they will have this effect.
        I want to ask a few questions about the transference scheme. Towards the end of the last Parliament, when this scheme was brought up a meeting was held upstairs and attended by representatives of a large number of bodies. Abuse was poured upon the head of the Government at that time, and no member present at that meeting was allowed to say anything else. That was done with the present Foreign Secretary in the Chair. To-night we have a change of Government, and the same people who abused this scheme of transference are, now—
        Mr. SPEAKER: It is out of order to discuss the system of transference.
        Mr. WILLIAMS: I did not intend to deal with the system. I was only giving an illustration. I was going to ask why such a very bad system could now be so good as to warrant the expenditure of additional money? What has arisen in the situation to cause the Minister to

        799
        come here and ask for more money? Is it really because the scheme has been greatly enlarged, that it is developing and is being found more useful as time goes on? Is the Minister now able to come here and say that she is actually doing something for the unemployed in this matter? I hope that she is. I hope that the transference system is working well and that the need for more money has arisen because it is doing well.
        I come to the other point in connection with this item of £100,000, part of which is for transference and the remainder for the training of workpeople and their families within Great Britain for overseas. Does that mean that there is a certain amount of migration to the Dominions, for which people are trained here? If so, what part of the £100,000 goes for the training for Dominion emigration and what part goes for transferences from one part of the country to another? I will not deal now with other matters, because I realise that the task of the right hon. Lady is being made difficult by her back-benchers. I should like to know something about the division of the £4,000,000, which relates partly to Unemployment Insurance 1920–29, and partly to the Bill of 1929. I hope to receive the information because, unfortunately, I have asked the right hon. Lady questions on matters about which she knows nothing. If she cannot answer, perhaps the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be able to give the figures.
        The MINISTER of LABOUR (Miss Bondfield): Very little has been said in the Debate that was not answered when the Estimate was last before us, and I am sure that it will not be the wish of the House that I should repeat what can be read in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I do not complain that hon. Members have taken the time of the House in continuing the discussion. There are one or two matters on which it would be advisable to repeat what I said on the previous occasion, particularly in relation to the purpose for which this sum of money is asked. I have said many times that the Estimate of the late Government for Unemployment Insurance was inadequate. They estimated for £12,000,000. I told the House in July that not only was the sum inadequate to meet the
        800
        current bills, but that, owing to the limitation of borrowing powers, the fund would be absolutely exhausted. We had to put into the fund £3,500,000 to bring us to the end of last year. When I introduced the Estimate in July I told the House that the £12,000,000, plus the £3,500,000, would be inadequate to finish the financial year and that other sums would have to be found in order to meet the situation. These further sums were found by a Treasury grant, which has been sanctioned by the House in the Bill now in another place, for the purpose of dealing with those persons who are not making a direct contribution to the fund. It was for the purpose of being able to make use of this further sum of money that the Bill was passed, and its urgency was emphasised by the necessity of getting it through before the end of the financial year. Unless we get the Bill and this Supplementary Estimate and the Consolidated Fund Bill through before the 31st January, the fund will again be in sore straits. That is a perfectly familiar position, which has been explained four times. Then, with regard to training, the extra £100,000 is asked for, because we are developing the opportunities for training, and the necessity for that rests in the degree to which the situation in the employment market is slightly shifting, so that there is a larger proportion of totally unemployed persons as compared with the number of short-time workers. That, again, is due largely to the energy which the Government are displaying in calling the attention of the industrialists of this country to the urgent necessity for reform in processes of manufacture and the development of better methods if they are to hold the markets throughout the world.
        I repeat, again, what I have said on previous occasions—not for debating purposes, but in order that we may face the facts of the situation—that it is more than probable that for some weeks to come—in the last Debate, I used the term "four months," because I did not want to be too optimistic—the figures will be in excess of the figures last year for the reason that under the late Government things were allowed to drift. [Interruption.] I am speaking of the weekly returns. That process of reorganisation will mean a displacement of labour, at least temporarily, while the processes are

        801
        being completed. When a works is being reorganised, it will probably close down-When firms are amalgamating, it results, in a great many cases, in works closing down, and before reorganisation can take full effect, there will be that much displacement in the number of persons employed.
        Sir K. WOOD: The Lord Privy Seal told us only a short time ago that the figures would be much better in February. That is almost here now.
        Miss BONDFIELD: I am not speaking for the purposes of making debating points. I hope that the Lord Privy Seal will turn out to be correct, but I have to find the money now for the benefit of those who are unemployed. I have made my Estimate—[Interruption]—I think the House is fully aware of this—on the basis that the period of reorganisation which has been so neglected and is now being so hastened on, will cause, as a consequence, this temporary increase in the number of persons displaced in their employment. I am making provision for this possibility, but I hope that it may ultimately prove unnecessary. Do let me remind the House of this, that, whatever margin I can get in the amount of income over expenditure, will go to the reduction of that appalling debt that is my inheritance in connection with this fund. The hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) was pleased to be very amusing in connection with my reference to Whipsnade. I suppose it is permissible debating to take a sentence out of one part of a speech and tack it on to another part with which it has nothing to do and to score a debating point in that way; but the hon. Member knows perfectly well that it had no reference to the housing statistics but to work that is earmarked for the possibility of transferees from the depressed areas.
        An HON. MEMBER: To the Zoo! [Interruption.]
        Miss BONDFIELD: With regard to the questions that were asked by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), I would like to say that in the last Debate I referred him to what were then Clauses 4, 5 and 6 of the Bill. That date is now quite obviously impossible owing to the delays that have taken place in the passage of the Bill. I cannot say when the actual operative date will be until I know the date of
        802
        the Royal Assent to the Bill, but I hope to be able to say when it will be on Thursday. With regard to the placing side of the Ministry of Labour, I am glad that that was emphasised by the hon. and gallant Member for North Hackney (Captain Hudson). I feel very strongly indeed that we can make some progress, but in regard to this Estimate, the staffing of the placing side is being developed not in relation to new work, but for increasing the efficiency of the present work. In some Exchanges, it has not been possible to do even what it was open to them to do, on account of pressure on the staff. In other cases it was necessary to increase the staff, although the register was less than a little while ago. We are giving far more attention to interviewing and to the individual needs of the applicants, and that means taking up more time of the staff than under the old measurement of time. I think there has been really no new point raised in this discussion at all, and I ask the House to let me have the Vote.
        Captain HUDSON: Cannot we have an answer to our questions?
        Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND: The speech which we have just heard is proof, if proof were needed, of the unfitness of this Government to deal with this question. No answer has been given and no justification made for the whole or part of the Estimate, either before or now. We have had the Report stage of this Estimate for more than £4,000,000 late in the evening. The Minister says, "of course, we have to have the money quickly and rush these things through to get the money in time," as if the right hon. Lady did not know that she could have had it discussed at proper length if only the Government had taken the opportunity of postponing the Debate on the Optional Clause. Therefore, that excuse is unsound. We have wanted to hear something reasonable and accurate as to what are the causes of the increased unemployment that has led to this Estimate. I ask the House to think of what has been told us to-night, and judge by that whether anyone can have any confidence in this Government. The right hon. Lady has had the audacity to say that the increase in unemployment is due to an increase in rationalisation and reorganisation that has been brought about by this Government. Does she

        803
        mean to say that there is a single factory throughout the country in which there is labour saving machinery already installed through the action of this Government? Everyone knows that to instal fresh machinery takes some time, however active one may be. We have had the Lord Privy Seal on his journeys through this country waking up to the value of foreign trade and reorganisation. But I ask any Member whether he believes that there are 1,000 men more out of work due to the reorganisation of industry, owing to the Lord Privy Seal. There never was a greater pretence, but a pretence more easily exposed by the very statement of it than that which has been put forward by the Minister of Labour.
        Then we are told that the time is too short to judge the Government. They have all the various schemes which they are to put into force, training, transference, and all the rest, and yet we are told: "Do not judge the Government." Eight months it is said is too short, but eight months is not too short for the most difficult and most delicate subject of the reorganisation of industry. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) very rightly interrupted the Minister and asked her what she made of the statement of the Lord Privy Seal, and practically all that she had to reply was that she did not agree with the Lord Privy Seal. We want to know what the Government think. There was a great frost last February, and therefore the Lord Privy Seal suggested a comparison when next February comes, when there is likely to be more open weather. The Minister now deprecates February and suggests June as a time for a comparison. I say that this short Debate has been enough to show anyone, if they wanted conviction, the complete absence of any policy or of any knowledge of the subject by the Government. Their true liability can be realised. It is not only that the figure to-day is 40,000 more than it was a year ago. When they came into power, it was 60,000 less than it was a year before. They have wiped that out and turned it into a deficit of 40,000. They are responsible, if a Government is responsible at all, for a difference of 100,000 in the number of unemployed. If ever there was a Government that claimed responsibility it was the present
        804
        Government. Eight months, we are told, is too short in which to judge the record of the Government, but not for the purpose of the reorganisation of a great industry, of introducing fresh machinery and labour-saving machinery. The Government are, in fact, responsible
        Mr. FOOT Mr. FOOT rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
        Mr. BECKETT Mr. BECKETT rose—
        Mr. E. BROWN: On a point of Order. My hon. Friend moved, "That the Question be now put," and I would like to ask whether his Motion was accepted.
        Mr. SPEAKER: I did not accept it.
        Mr. BECKETT: This has been one of the very few occasions that I remember in the short time that I have been in this House that a Debate, taken after eleven o'clock, has proved of real interest, and, I consider, of considerable value. I should not have risen had it not been for the extraordinary statement by the Minister of Labour, who appeared to be fighting very boldly for the privilege of bringing in rationalisation and reorganisation which is going to increase the number of the unemployed. I feel strongly that, even at this hour of the morning, a protest has to be made against this theory which has been repeated again and again from the Government Bench, that, taking the bull by the horns and increasing rationalisation and reorganisation is going eventually to improve employment by the extraordinary means that we have heard to-night of first of all sending the number of unemployed up for a period of at least four months, and I suggest that if that is true, this Supplementary Estimate ought to have been for at least treble the amount. It is a new doctrine that the way to find work and increase the ultimate prosperity of the country is, first of all, by a policy of reorganisation to throw men out of work and give them a miserable pittance when unemployed.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The merits of reorganisation are not relevant to this Vote.
        Mr. BECKETT: The question of reorganisation was discussed by both the last Front Bench speakers.
        Mr. SPEAKER: But the merits of reorganisation were not discussed by either speaker.
        Mr. BECKETT: I quite agree. I thought I was in order in discussing whether reorganisation would increase the number of unemployed during the next four months, as suggested by the Minister, and whether it was not the cause of the increased unemployment which has given rise to the production of this Estimate. I will not detain the House any longer, except to say that, if that is the policy of the Labour Government, then I am afraid that they will learn the same lesson that the Conservatives have done, that no Government which increases the number of the unemployed and then has to bring in Supplementary Estimates to give them a miserable and inadequate amount is likely to keep the confidence of the country and the tremendous enthusiasm which swept this Government into power. I suggest that there ought to be very much more consideration by the Government of that problem, and also that there ought to be much more consideration by the Government of the policy of transference for which they have come for more money. The policy of transference on the surface is a most attractive and simple way of dealing with a small part of the problem of unemployment. But, if you examine it a little more deeply, and if you take the trouble to go to the Employment Exchanges and interview
        those who place the transferred men, you will find two things. You will find, first, that every one of these transferred men is being put into a job that an unemployed man in the locality would have had if the transferred man had not come. In the second place, you will find very often that he is going to be put into a place at a lower rate of wages than would have been paid to a man in the locality. That is especially so where men come from the country, not knowing how high the cost of living is in London. The point is that we have had an admission to-night from the Government Front Bench that they are deliberately increasing unemployment, created by a method of capitalist reorganisation, by a building up of vested interests for the purpose of producing cheaply.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is going far beyond this Vote now.
        Mr. BECKETT: They not only did that, but they are still allowing the policy of transference introduced by the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, with the result that men in our own district cannot find work, and the rates of wages in those districts are beaten down.
        Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
        The House divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 63.

        Division No. 120.]

        AYES.

        [12.53 a.m.

        Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

        Dallas, George

        Grundy, Thomas W.

        Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

        Dalton, Hugh

        Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

        Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

        Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

        Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

        Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.

        Dickson, T.

        Harbord, A.

        Alpass, J. H.

        Dukes, C.

        Hardie, George D.

        Arnott, John

        Duncan, Charles

        Harris, Percy A.

        Aske, Sir Robert

        Ede, James Chuter

        Hastings, Dr. Somervill

        Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

        Edmunds, J. E.

        Haycock, A. W.

        Barnes, Alfred John

        Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

        Hayday, Arthur

        Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

        Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

        Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

        Bennett, William (Battersea. South)

        Egan, W. H.

        Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

        Benson, G.

        Elmley, Viscount

        Herriotts, J.

        Bentham, Dr. Ethel

        Foot, Isaac

        Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

        Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

        Freeman, Peter

        Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

        Bowen, J. W.

        Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

        Hoffman, P. C.

        Broad, Francis Alfred

        George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

        Hollins, A.

        Brothers, M.

        Gibbins, Joseph

        Horrabin, J. F.

        Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield)

        Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)

        Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

        Brown, Ernest (Leith)

        Gill, T. H.

        Hunter, Dr. Joseph

        Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

        Glassey, A. E.

        Isaacs, George

        Brawn, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

        Gossling, A. G.

        Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)

        Buchanan, G.

        Gould, F.

        Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

        Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)

        Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

        Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

        Charleton, H. C.

        Gray, Milner

        Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

        Church, Major A. G.

        Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).

        Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)

        Cocks, Frederick Seymour

        Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

        Kelly, W. T.

        Compton, Joseph

        Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)

        Kennedy, Thomas

        Daggar, George

        Groves, Thomas E.

        Kinley, J.

        Lang, Gordon

        Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

        Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

        Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

        Muff, G.

        Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

        Lathan, G.

        Murnin, Hugh

        Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

        Law, A. (Rosendale)

        Nathan, Major H. L.

        Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

        Lawrence, Susan

        Noel Baker, P. J.

        Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

        Lawson, John James

        Oldfield, J. R.

        Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

        Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

        Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

        Sorensen, R.

        Leach, W.

        Owen, H. F. (Hereford)

        Stamford, Thomas W.

        Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

        Palin, John Henry.

        Stephen, Campbell

        Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northe

        Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

        Strauss, G. R.

        Lees, J.

        Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

        Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

        Lewis, T. (Southampton)

        Picton-Turbervill, Edith

        Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)

        Lindley, Fred W.

        Potts, John S.

        Thurtle, Ernest

        Lloyd, C. Ellis

        Pybus, Percy John

        Tinker, John Joseph

        Logan, David Gilbert

        Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

        Tout, W. J.

        Longden, F.

        Raynes, W. R.

        Townend, A. E.

        Lunn, William

        Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

        Turner, B.

        Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

        Ritson, J.

        Vaughan, D. J.

        MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

        Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

        Wallace, H. W.

        McElwee, A.

        Romeril, H. G.

        Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

        McEntee, V. L.

        Rosbotham, D. S. T.

        Wellock, Wilfred

        McShane, John James

        Rowson, Guy

        Welsh, James (Paisley)

        Mander, Geoffrey le M.

        Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

        Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

        Mansfield, W.

        Salter, Dr. Alfred

        Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

        Markham, S. F.

        Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

        Wilkinson, Ellen C.

        Marley, J.

        Sanders, W. S.

        Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

        Mathers, George

        Sandham, E.

        Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

        Matters, L. W.

        Sawyer, G. F.

        Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

        Maxton, James

        Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

        Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

        Messer, Fred

        Sherwood, G. H.

        Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

        Mills, J. E.

        Shield, George William

        Milner, J.

        Shillaker, J. F

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

        Morgan, Dr. H. B.

        Simmons, C. J.

        Mr. Hayes and Mr. Wilfrid Paling.

        NOES.

        Acland Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

        Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

        Muirhead, A. J.

        Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

        Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

        Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

        Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

        Greene, W. P. Crawford

        Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

        Beaumont, M. W.

        Gunston, Captain D. W.

        Ramsbotham, H.

        Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

        Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

        Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

        Boyce, H. L.

        Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

        Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

        Bracken, B.

        Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

        Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

        Briscoe, Richard George

        Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

        Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

        Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

        Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

        Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

        Butler, R. A.

        Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

        Smithers, Waldron

        Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

        Iveagh, Countess of

        Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

        Colville, Major D. J.

        Knox, Sir Alfred

        Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

        Courtauld, Major J. S.

        Lamb, Sir J. Q.

        Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

        Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

        Leighton, Major B. E. P.

        Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

        Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

        Llewellin, Major J. J.

        Ward, Lieut.-Col Sir A. Lambert

        Dalkeith, Earl of

        Long, Major Eric

        Wells, Sydney R.

        Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

        Lymington, Viscount

        Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

        Dawson, Sir Philip

        Margesson, Captain H. D.

        Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

        Elliot, Major Walter E.

        Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

        Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

        Everard, W. Lindsay

        Mond, Hon. Henry

        Fison, F. G. Clavering

        Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

        Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

        Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

        Major the Marquess of Titchfield

        and Sir Victor Warrender.

        Resolution agreed to.

    REPORT [23RD JANUARY].
    Resolution reported,
    REPORT [23RD JANUARY].
      CLASS VI.

        BEET SUGAR SUBSIDY, GREAT BRITAIN.
        "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,250,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for a Subsidy on Sugar and Molasses manufactured from Beet grown in Great Britain."
        Resolution read a Second time.
        Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
        Sir ERNEST SHEPPERSON Sir ERNEST SHEPPERSON rose—
        Mr. C. WILLIAMS: May I be allowed to ask how far the Government intend going to-night?
        Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I rise to protest against this Supplementary Estimate being brought before the House on the Report stage at this hour. This is the one and only Measure for the benefit of agriculture introduced by this Government since it came into office in June, and I protest against them taking this action at one o'clock in the morning. Apart from that, I do desire, as an agriculturist, and on behalf of the agriculturists, to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture (Dr. Addison)

        809
        upon having at least brought forward an agricultural Measure. I do not desire to embarrass him. I can realise what a unique experience it must be to him to receive the congratulations at all of an agriculturist, and particularly an agriculturist on this side of the House. I do assure him that this Supplementary Estimate for the sugar-beet industry has, to a very large extent, saved a large number of arable farmers from what would otherwise have been absolute ruin. We are voting a very large sum of money.
        This Supplementary Estimate is due to one or all of three causes. It may be due, in the first case, to an increase in the yield of beet per acre. To the extent to which it is due to an increase in the acreage, it shows that the producer and farmer has improved his methods of cultivation, that he is enabled to increase the yield of that sugar-beet per acre. I congratulate the Minister on that, because that was the one purpose on which the whole principle of assistance to the sugar-beet industry was founded—that the grower should, in a period of years, receive such education in the cultivation of the crop as would enable him to increase his yield, and therefore his ability to make the crop pay.
        This increased subsidy may be due to a second cause, and that is the increase in the sugar content of the beet. The increase in the sugar content is due. I may say, merely and almost entirely to Providence, because last summer we had an extraordinary amount of sunshine. The sugar we consume is energy, and energy is indestructible and unbeatable. [Interruption.] The energy of that sugar is obtained from the sun, and last year we had an extraordinary amount of sunshine. It increased the yield of sugar, as it increased the yield of wheat and of other crops. Providence that year was kind to agriculture. Providence was helpful to us. May I suggest this morning that the Minister should take some example from Providence. Next year he should be as kind to us in giving help to agriculture as Providence was last year.
        There is another cause of the increase of this Supplementary Estimate, namely, an increase in the acreage under beet. That increased acreage is a direct in-
        810
        dication of the value that this crop has been to the arable farmer. Agriculturists throughout the country, owing to the low prices of their crops, have had to turn to sugar-beet to save them from ruin. I do not know whether the House realises the position of arable agriculture and that the large proportion of the crops the farmers are growing are making less money than before the war, and that, at the same time, the farmers are paying labour costs 100 per cent. greater than before the War and charges 65 per cent. greater. That is the position of the arable farmer to-day. On those crops he has lost in money, and he has turned to sugar-beet. I should like to inform the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture that next year he will find that he will have as great an increase for this sugar-beet industry. Sugar-beet is a root crop and an alternative to another root crop—the potato crop—
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is getting off the lines again.
        Sir E. SHEPPERSON: This increased estimate this year is due to the same cause. It is an alternative to the potato crop, and the potatoes are not a paying proposition. Therefore, the farmer has turned to sugar-beet. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that every ton of foreign potatoes he admits to this country this spring will mean that a ton of potatoes is being replaced by a ton of sugar-beet. Not only will the farmer suffer loss of money, but he will suffer loss of the subsidy on that sugar-beet. I have congratulated the Minister on bringing forward this Estimate. I will congratulate him again upon the opportune time in which he has brought it forward. I will congratulate him upon the fact that he is sitting on these benches. There is the absence of the President of the Board of Trade, and there is the absence of the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is quite properly prevented from being present.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman has got off the line now.
        Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I was endeavouring to show that the absence of these two right hon. Gentlemen was a cause by which the right hon. Gentleman

        811
        obtained the advantage of this Measure without opposition from his own Front Bench. Two years ago when a similar Vote was before the House—
        Mr. SPEAKER: We must confine ourselves to this year.
        Sir E. SHEPPERSON: I bow to your Ruling. In conclusion, I do want to say very seriously to the House that they need not grudge the expenditure of this money, because this Estimate for the purpose of sugar-beet has to my knowledge saved a large number of farmers all over England. Agriculture is grateful to the Minister. I only hope that, when our time comes, we may have the sympathy of the other side of the House for this great industry.
        Mr. KEDWARD: I want to address a question to the Parliamentary Secretary. I have received complaints from a number of farmers who grow sugar-beet concerning the shortage of by-products.
        Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must raise that on another occasion. It would not be relevant at this particular moment.
        Mr. KEDWARD: I have every desire to obey your Ruling. I was only going to suggest that it will affect my Vote if the factories are going to export the byproducts.
        Mr. SPEAKER: That would not justify a Supplementary Estimate in excess of the original Estimate which is the only question under discussion now.
        Mr. KEDWARD: That being so, I will get into touch with the Minister of Agriculture.
        Mr. MANDER: I rise to protest against the whole policy of the sugar-beet subsidy.
        Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise on this Vote.
        Mr. MANDER: And, particularly, I protest against this Supplementary Estimate. I think it is a great pity that this Estimate should be brought forward, because, if you can make out a case for subsidising sugar—
        Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise on this Vote. The question of policy was settled long ago.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    [REPORT, 23rd January.]
    Resolution reported.
    "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, the sum of £5,410,250 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
    Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.

    CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 2) BILL,
    "to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and thirty," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]

    LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) [MONEY].
    Resolution reported.
    "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the drainage of agricultural land in Scotland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses to be incurred by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland under the said Act so far as those expenses are not recovered in the manner provided by the said Act."

    MINISTERS' REMUNERATION.
    Ordered,
    "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Report of the Select Committee of 1920 on Ministers' Remuneration, with special reference to any modifications that may be required in the light of present day circumstances."

    813
    Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Ernest Evans, Mr. Hayday, Commander Oliver Locker-Lamp-son, Colonel Nicholson, and Mr. Shakespeare nominated Members of the Committee.
    Ordered,
    "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."
    Ordered,
    "That Three be the quorum."—[Mr. T. Kennedy.]
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Monday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at nineteen minutes after One o'clock.

  TIMBER DAMAGE, GALES.
  TIMBER DAMAGE, GALES.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  COPPER SULPHATE (IMPORT DUTY, PORTUGAL).
  COPPER SULPHATE (IMPORT DUTY, PORTUGAL).
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  FISCAL POLICY (DOMNIONS).
  FISCAL POLICY (DOMNIONS).
  POTATOES (ADVERTISING).
  POTATOES (ADVERTISING).
TRANSPORT.
  LOWER THAMES TUNNEL.
  LOWER THAMES TUNNEL.
  CHARING CROSS BRIDGE.
  CHARING CROSS BRIDGE.
  RAILWAY CROSSING, ARBROATH.
  RAILWAY CROSSING, ARBROATH.
  FAMILY ALLOWANCES.
  FAMILY ALLOWANCES.
HOUSING.
  SLUM CLEARANCE.
  SLUM CLEARANCE.
  DIRECT LABOUR.
  DIRECT LABOUR.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  AGRICULTURAL PARISHES.
  AGRICULTURAL PARISHES.
  RURAL WORKERS.
  RURAL WORKERS.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  PSITTACOSIS.
  PSITTACOSIS.
  LONDON.
  LONDON.
  RADIUM.
  RADIUM.
  SMALL-POX.
  SMALL-POX.
  POISONS (SALE).
  POISONS (SALE).
EDUCATION.
  TRAINING COLLEGES (PRINCIPALS' SALARIES).
  TRAINING COLLEGES (PRINCIPALS' SALARIES).
  TEACHERS.
  TEACHERS.
  DISTRESSED MINING AREAS (LORD MAYOR'S FUND).
  DISTRESSED MINING AREAS (LORD MAYOR'S FUND).
INDIA.
  CHEMICAL INDUSTRY.
  CHEMICAL INDUSTRY.
  PRIVATELY-OWNED RAILWAYS.
  PRIVATELY-OWNED RAILWAYS.
  PROVINCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS.
  PROVINCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS.
  PROVINCIAL LAND REVENUE.
  PROVINCIAL LAND REVENUE.
  MILITARY EXPENDITURE.
  MILITARY EXPENDITURE.
  REVENUE.
  REVENUE.
METROPOLITAN POLICE.
  DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
  DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
  UNSUPPORTED POLICE EVIDENCE
  UNSUPPORTED POLICE EVIDENCE
  RECRUITS (HEIGHT).
  RECRUITS (HEIGHT).
  NEW BORSTAL INSTITUTION, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE.
  NEW BORSTAL INSTITUTION, NOTTINGHAMSHIRE.
  KENYA (DEPORTATION, HARRY THUKU).
  KENYA (DEPORTATION, HARRY THUKU).
  BECHUANALAND PROTECTORATE (ADMINISTRATION).
  BECHUANALAND PROTECTORATE (ADMINISTRATION).
  RUSSIA (PROPAGANDA).
  RUSSIA (PROPAGANDA).
  FRENCH CONGO (MR. MARCUS DALEY).
  FRENCH CONGO (MR. MARCUS DALEY).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  AGED WORKEES.
  AGED WORKEES.
  BUILDING INDUSTRY.
  BUILDING INDUSTRY.
  DUDLEY.
  DUDLEY.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  WAGES.
  WAGES.
  DOCK TRANSPORT WORKERS.
  DOCK TRANSPORT WORKERS.
  LONDON NAVAL CONFERENCE.
  LONDON NAVAL CONFERENCE.
ROYAL NAVY.
  ASSISTANT ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS.
  ASSISTANT ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS.
  REFIT, DEVONPOET DOCKYARD.
  REFIT, DEVONPOET DOCKYARD.
  ANCIENT MONUMENTS.
  ANCIENT MONUMENTS.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  IMPERIAL WAR GRAVES COMMISSION (OFFICES).
  IMPERIAL WAR GRAVES COMMISSION (OFFICES).
  SANCTUARY BUILDINGS, WESTMINSTER.
  SANCTUARY BUILDINGS, WESTMINSTER.
  NEW BUILDINGS, EDINBURGH.
  NEW BUILDINGS, EDINBURGH.
  CIVIL SERVICE (POLITICAL ACTIVITIES).
  CIVIL SERVICE (POLITICAL ACTIVITIES).
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR, KEW (DISMISSALS).
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR, KEW (DISMISSALS).
  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE COMPANIES (AVERAGE DIVIDEND).
  INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE COMPANIES (AVERAGE DIVIDEND).
  FIGHTING SERVICES (PAY AND PENSIONS).
  FIGHTING SERVICES (PAY AND PENSIONS).
  TROOPS, GIBRALTAR AND MALTA.
  TROOPS, GIBRALTAR AND MALTA.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  CLAIMS.
  CLAIMS.
  ORPHANS.
  ORPHANS.
  LOST MAIL BAG (RECOVERY, COMPENSATION).
  LOST MAIL BAG (RECOVERY, COMPENSATION).
  UNION OF BENEFICES, GREAT AND LITTLE MASSINGHAM.
  UNION OF BENEFICES, GREAT AND LITTLE MASSINGHAM.
  MINES (SAFETY).
  MINES (SAFETY).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (MARKETING AND DISTRIBUTION).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (MARKETING AND DISTRIBUTION).
  DRAINAGE SCHEMES.
  DRAINAGE SCHEMES.
AGRICULTURE.
  POTATOES.
  POTATOES.
  SMALLHOLDERS (CREDIT FACILITIES).
  SMALLHOLDERS (CREDIT FACILITIES).
  GRADING AND MARKING.
  GRADING AND MARKING.
  MILK TESTS.
  MILK TESTS.
  CREDITS, YORKSHIRE.
  CREDITS, YORKSHIRE.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ARNOLD): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. The Bill is, of course, now in a state of great confusion, but the Government have no responsibility for that. I only desire to say a very few words in moving the Third Reading. I understand it is possible that the Amendments to Clause 4 down in the name of the noble Lord opposite, Lord Cozens-Hardy, may be on certain grounds held to be not in order, but in any case I would take this opportunity of saying a word on the question of trade union regulations. There really is nothing in the contention that some of the trade union rules, so far as the wording is concerned, somewhat resemble the genuinely-seeking-work procedure. The answer to this, as I have pointed out in this House, on two occasions before, is that the administration of the said rules by the trade unions, whatever the words are, is in fact very different from what the administration of the genuinely-seeking-work procedure has been. I would say quite definitely that in practice—and that is what matters—the procedure of the trade unions in regard to unemployed men and benefit, whatever their rules are, will not be any more strict than, even if as strict as, the procedure under the Government's Clause 4 that your Lordships struck out. That really is the fallacy of all these attempts to embarrass the Government by quoting the trade union regulations. They are remote from reality and are only brought forward by those unfamiliar with the facts.
I would like to point out before I sit down something with regard to what the noble Marquess (Lord Salisbury) said in his speech the other night. Noble Lords

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opposite pick out certain points from some trade union regulations, and are careful not to call attention to other regulations in the White Paper. The fact is that in many of the trade unions the regulations are, so far as words are concerned, a good deal less strict than Clause 4 of the Government. No one listening to the noble Marquess, who spoke of twenty-five out of twenty-six cases, would imagine for a moment that in this actual White Paper there are eighty-two other uses out of 108 whose regulations do not require the members to seek work. He did not tell you that. I do not propose to discuss the matter further unless the Amendments of the noble Lord opposite are held to be in order, in which case I shall have, on the details of his Amendments, some further observations to make. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Arnold.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I was unaware that the silence which beset the Government on the last occasion would, upon second thoughts, be found to be inopportune, and that the noble Lord would carefully get up something to say upon the Third Reading. It would have been better if he had made these observations at the time when your Lordships had the subject under consideration. I listened as far as I could, but I did not altogether follow what the noble Lord said. I simply took this White Paper in my hand and I looked at the first two unions which presented themselves to my eye. Here is the rule of the National Amalgamated Furnishing Trades Association:—
"No member who is suspended from his employment is entitled to this support unless he proves to his branch that he is searching for work."
Then take the Wall Paper Workers' Union:—
"Any member out of work neglecting to apply for a situation when ordered to do so by the secretary, or not using reasonable efforts to obtain work.…"
The noble Lord will find it is exactly the same more or less, unless I am under a great mistake, in ail except perhaps one of the twenty-six instances which the White Paper gives.
But I do not rise to make another speech upon the Third Reading of this
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Bill. Your Lordships have seen fit to make certain changes in the Bill, and they stand for better or worse. But I do rise upon rather an important matter of procedure. Since I came to the House, that is to say about half an hour ago, there has been put into my hands a printed Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cozens-Hardy. It purports to be an Amendment which he proposes to move after Third Reading to-day. I am quite sure the noble Lord will allow me to say there is no member of your Lordships' House whom I hold in higher respect than I do himself, and there is nothing in what I am about to say that is intended as a criticism of anything except the particular procedure which, I venture to think with great submission and respect, the noble Lord ought not to have pursued. The rule of your Lordships' House that no Amendment should be moved after Third Reading except with Notice is very rigidly applied. I have addressed your Lordships on the subject on many occasions, and I have had considerable experience, not merely in the general proceedings of your Lordships' House, but on this particular matter, and my experience is that no Amendment after Third Reading should be moved except after Notice.
The form in which it stands in the Standing Orders of the House in the "Companion to the Standing Orders of the House of Lords on Public Business" is:—
"The Bill having been read a Third time, the opportunity arises for proposing further Amendments. Previous notice should be given of them, if they be of any importance, and they are printed and circulated."
That is the form in which it stands in this old "Companion," but, as a matter of fact, we apply it even more rigidly, and for the last ten years, I venture to say, no Amendment has been allowed to be put in after Third Reading—even an unimportant Amendment—except after Notice. Your Lordships will observe that not only must Notice be given, but the Amendment must be printed and circulated. This Amendment has never been circulated. Therefore, I think it would be very unwise of your Lordships, notwithstanding the respect we have for the noble Lord, if we entertained his Amendment at all—I mean wholly without reference to its subject matter, and merely as a matter of procedure.

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And this is not merely one of those technical rules which have really no reason behind them. It is a rule founded upon experience and common sense. If your Lordships put in Amendments on the Committee stage, all right, there is an opportunity on the Report stage of putting them right if they turn out to be in any way erroneous. If on the Report stage an Amendment is inserted, then your Lordships again have an opportunity after the Third Reading of putting right any mistake. But if the Amendment is made after the Third Reading and a mistake takes place, your Lordships have no longer any power to put it right. Therefore we have made the rule—and it has been applied in my own period of membership of your Lordships' House very rigidly—that we will have no Amendments unless Notice has been given. It may be said that the fact that this Amendment has been printed is to some extent a compliance with the rule. Well, it is a compliance with part of the rule, but not with all of it, and it really is not sufficient, because the Amendment has not been in the hands of noble Lards so that they can consider it beforehand and attend your Lordships' House, if they think it is necessary to comment upon it.
As a matter of fact, in my own case, it was only by the kind intervention of a friend that I had the least idea there was going to be any Amendment of this kind moved on the Third Reading. I was in the country, and it was only by a hasty telephone message that I knew it was going to be moved. I will not tell again the story which I have often told in your Lordships' House of how, many years ago now, when a particular Government was in office, an Amendment was put in on the Third Reading without Notice against my protest, and within ten minutes of the Bill passing into law they found that the Amendment had been inserted in the wrong place. I will not detail what actually happened. There would have been—or there ought to have been—no means of putting it right after the mistake which had been made. Without reference altogether to the subject matter of the noble Lord's Amendment, I would invite your Lordships not to entertain it because sufficient Notice has not been given.
LORD COZENS-HARDY: My Lords, the Amendment which stands in my name
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is practically to the same effect as that which I had placed on the Paper on Report but which, on the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor, I deferred to Third Reading. If in my ignorance of the procedure of your Lordships' House I have not given sufficient Notice of the Amendment of course I must bow to the decision of the House; but I thought that having mentioned the matter on the Report Stage and having handed in the Amendment in time for it to be printed, the matter would be in order. If it is the view of your Lordships that the matter is out of order I do not propose to say more at this stage.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, I am bound to admit that the noble Marquess opposite has stated the rule of your Lordships' House with perfect accuracy, as there is no doubt he would, and has also stated very clearly the reason for it. If anything is put at the last moment into a Bill of which members of your Lordships' House had no Notice it would be unfair to them and to the expressed opinion of the House itself. I hope that the noble Lord is not in any way in error about what I stated to him the other day. I have looked at the actual words and what I stated to him is this, that the matter which he wanted to discuss could be equally discussed after the Third Reading and not at the Third Reading. I assumed in connection with that that he would take all the ordinary necessary steps to put himself in order. I do not wish to say anything more than that. Personally, I am sorry that the noble Lord has been deprived of this opportunity. The noble Marquess has stated the rule of the House quite accurately.
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed and returned to the Commons.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL. [H.L.]
Further considered on Report (according to Order).
Clause 55:
Application of Part IV and classification of public service vehicles.
(2) Public service vehicles shall, for the purposes of this Part of this Act and the

289
regulations made thereunder, be divided into the following classes:—
(b) Express carriages; that is to say, motor vehicles carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares and for a journey or journeys to some one or other common destination specified beforehand, and not stopping to take up or set down passengers other than those taking the specified journey or journeys, and motor vehicles carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares, where no fare is less than one shilling for a single journey or such greater sum as may be prescribed:
Provided that a motor vehicle adapted to carry less than six passengers shall not be deemed to be an express carriage by reason only that on special occasions it is used to carry passengers at separate fares.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved, in subsection (2) (b), after the first "fares," to insert "none of which are less than one shilling for a single journey or such greater sum as may be prescribed." The noble Earl said: My Lords, the three Amendments to this clause which stand in my name are all to the same purpose; that is, to prevent what are commonly called motor coaches running in competition with the motor omnibuses which are for ordinary local use on certain roads. As laid down in the clause at the moment there are two classes of motor coaches—those which run between previously advertised points and those which do not, have any fare less than one shilling. I feel that both these types should be combined into one and that the definition of a motor coach should be such a vehicle as only runs between specified points and also which has no fare of less than one shilling. I understand that the Ministry are in sympathy with this Amendment and I hope the noble Earl will see his way to accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 24, after ("fares") insert ("none of which are less than one shilling for a single journey or such greater sum as may be prescribed").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): My Lords, this and the next two Amendments, as the noble Earl has said, are all connected together. If your Lordships look at Clause 55, you will find that it endeavours, in the paragraph that we are considering, to define "express carriages." The
290
first part of the definition is that they must carry passengers at separate fares to a common destination not stopping to take up or set down passengers other than those taking the specified journey. Then it goes on to say—
"and motor vehicles carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares, where no fare is less than one shilling …"
The object of the noble Earl is one with which the Minister of Transport is not out of sympathy, as I understand it; that is, to prevent that which is not a stage carriage competing unfairly with that which is a stage carriage and has to be subject to all the regulations. The clause is not quite satisfactory as it is drawn, but the result of the noble Lord's Amendments would really be impossible, because the three Amendments, if inserted in the Bill, would make it obligatory for every passenger to go to the extreme end of the journey before he was allowed to get off. For instance, a passenger going from London to Brighton who lived three miles on this side of Brighton would not be allowed to get off there, but would have to go on to Brighton. If the noble Earl, at this stage, would withdraw his Amendment, I will promise him that the form, of the clause will be reconsidered before Third Reading. We recognise it requires some amendment.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, by leaving out the words "or set down" the noble Earl's argument would be met. If he would consider that I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in the proviso to subsection (2), before "an express carriage," to insert "a stage carriage or." The noble Earl said: My Lords, it is possible a carriage seating fewer than six passengers might be used to carry passengers at separate fares of less than a shilling on special occasions, and but for this Amendment it would then become a stage carriage.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 39, after the second ("be") insert ("a stage carriage or").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in the proviso to subsection (2), before "special," to insert "occasions of race meetings, public

291
gatherings and other like" The noble Earl said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to give some indication of what is meant by "special occasions." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 40, after ("on") insert ("occasions of race meetings, public gatherings and other like").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 56 [Constitution of traffic areas]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the two Amendments in my name on this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 42, lines 24 and 25, leave out ("the last preceding subsection") and insert ("this section.")
Page 42, line 33, leave out ("subsection (2) of").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 57 [Traffic Commissioners]:
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, after subsection (2), to insert:—
"Where the Minister proposes to appoint a person to be Traffic Commissioner for any traffic area he shall, before making any appointment, require the person whom he proposes to appoint to declare whether he has any, and if so what, financial interest in any transport undertaking which carries passengers within the traffic area."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to obviate any person being appointed a Commissioner who would be financially interested in any transport undertaking. I think this subsection will secure that the Minister shall know what interest he has, and therefore be able to form a judgment.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 5, at end insert the said words.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I am very glad to see this Amendment down in the name of the noble Earl, but does it go quite far enough? Ought not the proposed person also to be made to disclose whether he has any financial interest in any undertaking which supplies or manufactures omnibuses, motor coaches, chars-a-bancs or trams? And ought he not also to give an undertaking not to acquire any interest in any of those undertakings after he takes
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office, without leave of the Minister? In those circumstances will not the noble Earl consider this between now and Third Reading?
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I think, perhaps, the noble Viscount is right. I know another clause of this sort which does go further and of course it is clear that future interests may be as important as present interests. I will consider that point between now and Third Reading.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert the following new subsections:—
"( ) A person shall be disqualified for being a Commissioner if he is convicted, either on indictment or summarily, of any crime, and sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour without the option of a fine, or to any greater punishment, or is adjudged bankrupt, or makes a composition or arrangement with his creditors.
( ) If a Commissioner is absent from sittings of the Commissioners for more than six months consecutively, except for some reason approved by the Minister, he shall, on the expiration of those months, vacate his office.
( ) Where a Commissioner becomes disqualified for holding office, or vacates his office from absence or otherwise, the Minister shall forthwith declare the office to be vacant, and shall notify the fact in such manner as he thinks fit, and thereupon the office shall become vacant."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, where Commissioners and people of the like nature are appointed for a long term of years it is usual to have some means of getting rid of them. Under this Bill there are no such means; but there are under the Port of London Authority Act, and I have taken the liberty of adapting the words of that Act to suit the present Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 11, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the Minister takes the view about this Amendment that it is not perhaps very happily worded. We recognise that it is taken from the Port of London Authority Act, but a member of the Port of London Authority is in rather a different position. He gets there by election as a representative. These Commissioners are going to occupy posi-

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tions of great importance of a quasi-judicial nature, and it is not perhaps very polite to suggest to them that they are likely to be sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour, nor even to suggest they are going to be bankrupt; but we do think that there ought to be perhaps some method, which is not at present provided, of getting rid of a Commissioner who is unsatisfactory. I am not sure that this Amendment by any means covers all the reasons which might make it eminently proper that a Commissioner should be got rid of. What we are prepared to do, if the noble Viscount will be satisfied with that, is to accept these words at the moment, but he must allow us to reconsider them before Third Reading, because I cannot help feeling they are perhaps a little insulting to the people who are proposed to be Commissioners.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The noble Earl has taken the same exception to this Amendment as did my noble friend Lord Peel when I ventured to move a similar Amendment to the Electricity Bill. However, I am glad to hear that the Commissioners in this case are also going to be supermen and not as those on the Port of London Authority.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 61:
Public service vehicle licences.
(2) If any person causes or permits a public service vehicle to be used in contravention of this section, he shall be guilty of an offence:
Provided that, where in the case of a service of stage carriages no fare is less than threepence or such greater sum as may be prescribed, it shall not be an offence to use on that service a vehicle licensed as an express carriage if consent in writing to such use has been obtained from the Commissioners of each of the traffic areas in which the vehicle is so used.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the two Amendments in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 45, line 13, have out ("where")
Page 45, line 14, leave out from ("carriages") to ("it") in line 15.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved, in the proviso to subsection (2), after
294
"offence," to insert "in special circumstances." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I feel that only in very exceptional cases should relaxation of the provisions of the Bill be allowed, and I put down this Amendment to be a guide to the Commissioners that it is only under special circumstances that the conditions of the Bill are to be relaxed.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 16, after ("offence") insert ("in special circumstances").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the noble Earl's Amendment only expresses what is intended to be the practice and the guide of the Commissioners. I am not sure whether they are the most apt words, but I should be prepared to accept them now, subject to any reconsideration or modification.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the next Amendment in my name is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 19, after ("so") insert ("to be").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 62 [Certificates of fitness]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the two Amendments in my name are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 45, line 38, after ("or") insert ("fixed")
Page 45, line 42, after the third ("the") insert ("fixed").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 63:
Road service licences.
63.—(1) A person shall not use a vehicle or permit it to be used as a stage carriage or as an express carriage unless he is the holder of a road service licence issued under this Part of this Act or otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of such a licence.
(2) Every person applying for a road service licence or applying for the backing of such a licence shall submit to the Commissioners—

(a) in the case of regular services, the time tables and fare tables of the services which it is proposed to provide under the licence; and

(b) in any other case, particulars as to the frequency of the services and the times to be taken on the journeys included in these services;

and the Commissioners shall not grant the licence unless they are satisfied that the

295
time tables and the fare tables and other arrangements are such as to secure that suitable services will be established and maintained, and that the provisions of Part I of this Act relating to the maximum speed of vehicles will not be contravened.
(3) A copy of every time table and of every fare table approved by the Commissioners under the last preceding subsection shall be carried and be available for inspection in every vehicle used on the service to which the time table relates.
(4) Subject to any regulations made by the Minister, there may be attached to a road service licence such conditions as the Commissioners may from time to time think fit for securing the establishment or maintenance of a suitable service of stage carriages or express carriages as the case may be, and for securing that the route to be followed shall be suitable and that the vehicles to be used shall in design, construction and equipment be suitable to the route, and for fixing the points along the route between which passengers may not be taken up or set down, and also for securing that—

(a) the conditions on which persons are employed in connection with the service shall not be such as to endanger the safety of the public or impair the efficiency of the service;

(b) the fares shall not be unreasonable;

(c) where desirable in the public interest, the fares shall be so fixed as to prevent wasteful competition with alternative forms of transport, if any, along the route or any part thereof, or in proximity thereto.

(5) If where an application has been made for a road service licence it is represented to the Commissioners by any person interested in or affected by the application that it is necessary or desirable in the public interest that the Commissioners should fix the minimum or maximum fares for any service which the applicant proposes to provide under the licence, the Commissioners may fix such fares and make it a condition of the licence that fares shall not be charged under or in excess of the minimum or maximum.
(6) The Commissioners in exercising their discretion to grant or to refuse a road service licence in respect of any route and their discretion to attach conditions to any such licence shall have regard to—

(a) the extent, if any, to which the needs of the proposed route are already adequately served;

(b) the extent to which the proposed service is necessary or desirable in the public interest;

(c) the needs of the area as a whole in relation to traffic, including the provision of adequate and efficient services, the elimination of unnecessary services, the provision of unremunerative services, and the co-ordination of all forms of passenger transport, including transport by rail;

and shall take into consideration any representations which may be made by local
296
authorities or other persons who are already providing transport facilities along or near to the route or any part thereof.
(7) A road service licence in respect of any route shall be required notwithstanding that the provision of a service of stage carriages or express carriages is authorised by a special Act or an order having the force of an Act of Parliament, but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically authorised by or under Part V of this Act or by or under any special Act or order:
Provided that notwithstanding any restriction to the contrary, whether contained in this Act or in any other Act or in any order having the force of an Act or elsewhere, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to grant a road service licence in respect of any route or any part of a route to any person applying for such a licence, and it shall be lawful for that person to operate a service in accordance with the licence so granted to him.
(8) The Commissioners shall, on granting or backing a road service licence, send notice thereof to every chief officer of police and every local authority in whose district or area the service is to be operated and transmit to him and them particulars of the services to be provided under the licence.
(9) If any person uses a vehicle or permits it to be used in contravention of this section, or wilfully or negligently fails to comply with any of the conditions attached to his road service licence, he shall be guilty of an offence:
Provided that failure to comply with any such conditions shall not be an offence if the alleged offender proves that he acted with the consent of the Commissioners for the traffic area in which the offence is alleged to have been committed.
(10) The Commissioners may from time to time vary in such manner as they think fit any condition attached to a road service licence.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK had on the Paper an Amendment in subsection (7), to leave out "but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically authorised by or under Part V of this Act or by or under any special Act or order." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I think it would be simpler if I moved this later on the new clause which the noble Earl will propose.
LORD ASKWITH, who had given Notice of an Amendment in the proviso to subsection (7), to insert "other than a route along which the person so applying is restricted by any such Act or order from running omnibuses in competition with any road transport service (whether tramway, trolley vehicle or omnibus) of any other person and where the road transport service which is protected by that restriction is being worked effi-

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ciently"—said: My Lords, I would prefer to support the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, when he moves it and drop mine. His seems to me to meet the case.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I think the most convenient course would be, if both noble Lords would agree, that we should omit the present Clause 63 and then take the Amendments on the proposed new clause.
LORD ASKWITH: That would be perfectly agreeable to me.
EARL RUSSELL: Then I move to omit Clause 63.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 63.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to insert the following new clause:—
Road service licences.
"( ).—(1) A person shall not use a vehicle or permit it to be used as a stage carriage or as an express carriage unless he is the holder of a road service licence issued under this Part of this Act or otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of such a licence.
(2) The Commissioners shall not grant a road service licence in respect of any route unless they are satisfied that the provisions of Part I of this Act relating to the speed of motor vehicles will not be contravened, and in exercising their discretion to grant or to refuse a road service licence in respect of any routes and their discretion to attach conditions to any such licence shall have regard to the following matters:—

(a) the suitability of the routes on which a service may be provided under the licence;

(b) the extent, if any, to which the needs of the proposed routes or any of them are already adequately served;

(c) the extent to which the proposed service is necessary or desirable in the public interest;

(d) the needs of the area as a whole in relation to traffic (including the provision of adequate, suitable and efficient services, the elimination of unnecessary services and the provision of unremunerative services), and the co-ordination of all forms of passenger transport, including transport by rail;

and take into consideration any representations which may be made by persons who are already providing transport facilities along or near to the routes or any part thereof or by any local authorities through whose areas the routes would pass.
(3) Subject to any regulations made by the Minister, the Commissioners may attach
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to a road service licence such conditions as they may think fit with respect to the matters to which they are required to have regard under the preceding subsection and generally for securing the safety and convenience of the public, and in particular for securing that—

(a) the conditions on which persons are employed in connection with the service shall not be such as to endanger the safety of the public or impair the efficiency of the service;

(b) the fares shall not be unreasonable;

(c) where desirable in the public interest the fares shall be so fixed as to prevent wasteful competition with alternative forms of transport, if any, along the route or any part thereof, or in proximity thereto;

(d) copies of the time-table and fare-table shall be carried and be available for inspection in vehicles used on the service;

and the Commissioners may from time to time vary in such manner as they think fit any condition attached to a road service licence.
(4) Every person applying for a road service licence shall submit to the Commissioners—

(a) in the case of regular services, the time-tables and fare-tables of the services which it is proposed to provide under the licence; and

(b) in any other case, particulars as to the frequency of the services and the times to be taken on the journeys included in those services.

(5) If where an application has been made for a road service licence it is represented to the Commissioners by any person interested in or affected by the application that it is necessary or desirable in the public interest that the Commissioners should fix the minimum or maximum fares for any service which the applicant proposes to provide under the licence, the Commissioners may fix such fares and make it a condition of the licence that fares shall not be charged under or in excess of the minimum or maximum:
Provided that where provision is made by any Act of Parliament for the fixing of fares or maximum fares in respect of any service or stage of any service, the Commissioners shall not have power to fix maximum fares in respect of that service or stage, nor to fix a minimum fare for any stage in excess of any fare or maximum fare for the time being fixed for that stage under any such Act.
(6) A road service licence in respect of any route shall be required notwithstanding that the provision of a service of stage carriages or express carriages is authorised by a special Act or an order having the force of an Act of Parliament, but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically so authorised:
Provided that notwithstanding any restrictions to the contrary, whether contained in this or any other Act, or other-

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wise having the force of law, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to grant, under and in accordance with the provisions of this section, a road service licence in respect of any route or any part of a route to any person applying for such a licence, and it shall be lawful for that person to provide a service in accordance with the licence so granted to him.
(7) The Commissioners, on granting a road service licence, shall send notice thereof, including particulars of the services to be provided thereunder, to every chief officer of police and every local authority in whose district or area any such service is to be provided.
(8) If any person uses a vehicle or causes or permits it to be used in contravention of this section, or being the holder of a road service licence, wilfully or negligently fails to comply with any of the conditions attached thereto, he shall be guilty of an offence:
Provided that failure to comply with any such conditions shall not be an offence if the alleged offender proves that he acted with the consent of the Commissioners for the traffic area in which the offence is alleged to have been committed.
(9) In this section the expression 'local authority' means the council of any county, borough, urban district or rural district."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this clause is practically the same as the old clause recast, except that it is in a better form and I think it contains a new proviso to subsection (5) to prevent any conflict of jurisdiction between the Commissioners and other authorities, who already have powers to fix minimum fares. I beg to move that this new clause be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 47, insert the said new clause.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, there is one small point on which I should like to ask a question. Does the word "person" cover a company and a local authority?
EARL RUSSELL: Oh, yes, I think so.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: That is clear?
EARL RUSSELL: I think so. The word "person" in law covers both of them.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, may I ask whether the proviso in the original Bill is retained? In the original Clause 63 there is subsection (7) with a proviso which reads:—
"Provided that notwithstanding any restriction to the contrary, whether contained in this Act or in any other Act or in any order having the force of an Act or else-
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where, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to grant a road service licence.…"
EARL RUSSELL: Yes. You will find it on page 6 of the Marshalled List of Amendments.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK had given notice of two Amendments to subsection (6) of the proposed new clause, the effect of which would be to leave out all words after "Parliament." The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving the first Amendment which stands in my name, I think it would be well if I were to speak on both Amendments as very much the same principle underlies both. The first Amendment I propose is to leave out the words after Parliament, that is to say to leave out the words "but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically so authorised." At first sight it might appear that this proviso would protect local authorities already having powers to run trams or omnibuses, but your Lordships must remember that many local authorities obtain power to run trams and omnibuses without the intention of doing so immediately. The reason for that is generally that there is some company running a perfectly efficient service at the moment, and a clause is usually inserted saying that the authorities shall not run trams or omnibuses on the route while the existing company is doing it so efficiently.
That applies also to my second Amendment to leave out the proviso. There are many sections in Private Acts of Parliament which give to companies the right to run omnibuses without any competition. In order to obtain these sections they have come to an agreement with their opponents, usually the local authority, that they shall run omnibuses without competition in return for certain services rendered. I feel that unless my Amendments are carried, the whole principle of legislating by Private Bills will be upset. People go to a great deal of trouble and expense, they come to Parliament and go before a Private Bill Committee which enquires very fully into the merits of the case. Both sides, as your Lordships are aware, argue the case before the Committee, and then they come to an agreement knowing very fully the facts of the case. It seems to me that it would be absolutely wrong if the whole of these arrangements were swept away by this Bill. It would bring Parlia-

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ment into disrepute if we were to make such sweeping changes as are now proposed by this clause. I hope your Lordships will support my Amendment. I feel it is very important and I intend to trouble your Lordships with a, Division if the noble Earl is not prepared to accept the Amendment. The second Amendment is more or less the same as the first. It deals with provisos in certain Private Bills, and it is equally important, but I am prepared to accept the decision of your Lordships' House on the first Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In subsection (6) leave out ("but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically so authorised").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, I support the Amendments of the noble Earl who has just sat down. If they are passed then I should be prepared to withdraw the Amendment of which I have given Notice, as I am toll that those proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, would be satisfactory to the Tramways and Light Railways Association, who have asked me to say a few words on the subject. I agree with the noble Earl that the proposed clause would in a very sweeping manner over-ride Acts of Parliament, the various ramifications of which it is very difficult to know. Power would be put into the hands of the Commissioners to sweep away a great deal of what has occurred in the past without any adequate opportunity being given for those affected to be heard. My Amendment is chiefly concerned with cases in which this overriding power is exercised where the road service is efficient, but if the whole of the subsection is struck out then I do not think my Amendment will be necessary.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I cannot help regarding this as an important matter, although at the same time I will do my lot best not to exaggerate. My noble friends who have already spoken have outlined the matter to your Lordships. I have here some of the cases in question. I do not want to quote them at length, but I would like to point out that certainly during the last eight years there have been a number of decisions by Committees of your Lordships' House and by Committees of the House of Commons. I
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have four of the sections here and they show that the decisions, although generally the same in principle, have not always been the same in detail. There is a long section in the Lowestoft Corporation Act, 1920, there was a section in the South Shields Corporation Act, 1921, and two sections in the Wigan Corporation Act, 1921. Those sections show that these matters have not been decided capriciously. They embody settlements made by Parliament knowing all the facts. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that the decisions have been arrived at generally contrary to the advice of the Ministry of Transport. At all events, I do not remember a case—I have not looked up all the cases, but I do not remember a case—in which they have given a decision of this kind enthusiastic support in advance.
But your Lordships will see how this will work. It means that every decision come to by Parliament during years past is to be subject to the revision of these officials—important people, but still somewhat subordinate people when we compare them with their chiefs reigning over them at the Ministry of Transport. I would like in this connection, because it is, I think, material, to remind your Lordships in a few sentences, but a little more in detail, of the Oxford case which was quoted by the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, in Committee. The story of what happened in Oxford is this. About twenty years ago a company purchased the tramways in Oxford from the Corporation for £7,000. In 1914 they came to an agreement with the Corporation by which omnibuses were substituted for tramways, subject to a rent which, I think, was then fixed at £200 quarterly, or £800 a year. I think that that sum has since been increased. In return, as is shown in the agreement scheduled to the Act, the Company were given the monopoly of the routes concerned—the same monopoly as they would have had in the case of tramways. The rates were fixed by the Act, but they were afterwards raised by the Act of 1921 and I think the matter was again before Parliament in 1928.
Here is a definite arrangement, made for consideration of pay, and it does seem to me a very far-reaching proposal if that arrangement is to be of no value

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at all because it is to be made subject to consideration by these new officials, who have complete powers, under the clause as I read it, to override it. I know that Parliament is never obstinate in refusing to hear further arguments in any case that it has decided, but it does seem to me to be rather a large order to lay down a general principle that every decision which has been come to by Parliament at any time is to be subject to a review in this way by these non-legislative gentlemen. There may be a strong public case making it essential that this proposal should be put through, but I have not heard that public case yet. I should be very interested to hear it, but until I do hear it I certainly feel inclined to support my noble friend behind me who moved this Amendment.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the first Amendment is to remove the words "but a licence shall not be refused if the route is specifically so authorised." That is to say, the Commissioner is instructed that it will be his duty to give a licence to any person who has been specifically authorised by Statute to have a licence. He is instructed to have regard to these Private Acts of Parliament of which noble Lords have been speaking. I cannot understand their argument. I am prepared to adopt that which they have said on this point and, indeed, that which the noble Earl, the Chairman of Committees, has said, that Private Acts of Parliament that have been obtained after argument before Committees ought to have some regard paid to them. These words which the noble Earl is now proposing to omit are precisely those which tell the Commissioner that he is to pay some regard to those Acts and that, where Parliament has granted not only power to run omnibuses but power to run omnibuses on a particular route to a particular authority, the power granted by Parliament is to be respected by the Commissioner and he is not to refuse the licence.
All the arguments that noble Lords used seem to me to go to support that. They were, perhaps relevant to the second Amendment, which is rather different and which I would rather discuss separately when we come to it. The two Amendments do not really hang together at all. In fact, you might say that they are opposite principles. The first Amendment
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proposes that complete disregard should be had to these Private Acts of Parliament and to these special routes, allocated to the promoters of those Acts, who have obtained them by Bills; and the second Amendment proposes that, in spite of the proposal of the Government that these provisions in the Acts should not override the consideration of the Commissioner, the Private Act of Parliament is to be of full force and the Commissioner is to have no power to interfere with it. They are therefore arguing totally opposite points, and I will not argue both questions at once. I prefer to limit myself to the first Amendment, which definitely says that, no matter what the Act of Parliament says, no matter whether the Committee of your Lordships' House or of another place has given somebody a specific route to work upon, the Commissioner is to disregard it and he is not to be bound to have a licence from the Commissioner.
All that we are suggesting in this clause is that a licence shall not be refused for a route that has been specifically authorised by Parliament. That seems to me to be an eminently reasonable proposal, and one that I am sure that the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman of Committees, would support. I cannot take the two Amendments together because they are different, but on that point I suggest to your Lordships, when these matters have been argued and, at some expense, the right to a particular route has been obtained, or at any rate the power to run upon that route, not that it should be a monopoly, not that there should be an unreasonable right maintained to the person who has obtained that route or anything of that sort, but that the Commissioner should at any rate be told that, as these people got that particular route from Parliament, the least he can do is to give the licence to ride on it. I am afraid that the Government must resist this Amendment.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, as I tried to explain, though I think I must have failed, the noble Earl must know that, when permission is given to run on certain routes, that permission is very often subject to conditions. The local authority is not able to run omnibuses or trams like a private person on any route. It has to obtain permission from Parliament and, when it has got per-

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mission from Parliament to run its vehicles on certain routes, it is very often convenient to apply for leave to run vehicles on certain other routes where another company is at the moment running a service. Accordingly in many Acts of Parliament, I am informed, local authorities are given power to run vehicles on certain routes where, as I say, another body has the right of doing so, but they promise not to take that power upon themselves while that body is maintaining an efficient service. I think it would be manifestly unfair that, where that proviso has been inserted in an Act, the Commissioner should have power to override a proviso inserted by Parliament—the case is exactly the same under this Amendment as under the other—giving an authority power to run their tramways in spite of the agreement contained in a Private Act. I hope that the noble Earl understands what I mean.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I think that the discussion which we are engaged upon is ranging round a question of principle, and I know that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill is well aware that there is great apprehension amongst various companies throughout the country, some of which have been specified by my noble friend the Lord Chairman, in relation to the authority which the Commissioners will exercise over what they regard as a right consecrated to them by Act of Parliament. If the noble Earl will consider the matter from that point of view, I think that this will satisfy the noble Earl who has moved this Amendment. I feel that there is no necessity for me to go into specific instances, with which the noble Earl is familiar, of cases where Parliament has sanctioned the establishment of services which amount to a monopoly and, while these monopolies, or practical monopolies, have been opposed by county councils, they have been maintained for these companies by this House and in another place.
What my noble friend is proposing in his Amendment is that these rights, which Parliament has maintained, should not be under the jurisdiction of the Commissioners to do as they think best in relation to them. That is really what we are asking the noble Earl, and I am quite sure that if the Amendment does not fulfil the conditions which the noble Earl wishes to bring forward he
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could put in words to satisfy what we are asking. I am inclined to think, however, that the noble Earl opposite is not in entire agreement with us in regard to these particular cases, and that he is quite willing to leave it to the Commissioners to exercise their jurisdiction in these matters, with the safeguard of saying that the Commissioners have before them the facts that I have been endeavouring in a very short space of time to put before your Lordships. I think that we on this side of the House want something more than that, and that these companies, with rights and powers which they believe are theirs by Acts of Parliament, should not be subject to the control of Commissioners. I hope the noble Earl will see his way to meet us on this point.
EARL RUSSELL: With your Lordships' permission I want to say one word more. The speech of the noble Marquess related to the second Amendment, and not to the Amendment which is now before your Lordships. I do not quite understand Lord Cranbrook. Do I understand him to say that a local authority obtains from Parliament power to run, not tramways but omnibuses upon a certain route, and at the same time pledges itself in certain circumstances not to exercise that power? If I understood him correctly to say that, then these words will not do any harm, because the giving of such a pledge obviously would prevent the local authority from applying for a road licence. All these words do is to say that where a local authority, or any other statutory body, has got a right from Parliament to run a motor omnibus upon a particular route, the Traffic Commissioner shall recognise that right to the extent of not refusing a road licence. It does not say that he is to grant them an exclusive licence, or as many licences as they ask for; but it does say that in view of the fact that they have obtained powers from Parliament he is not to meet them with simply a blank refusal. He is to say: "You are that much to the good, as compared with anybody else, and it is my duty to give you a road licence for any vehicle which I consider suitable having regard to the state If the road."
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I am not quite clear that I understand the controversy, but it appears to me it will

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resolve itself into this. There are certain bodies, or certain councils it may be, who possess at the present moment certain rights defined and confirmed by Private Acts of Parliament, and what I gather from what is said on this side is that those rights will be now subject to some modification by the procedure of these Commissioners. If that is so it does appear to me to be rather hard. It does not seem to me to be right that statutory powers given to any body should be capable of modification by Commissioners set up under another Act.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: In view of the assurance given by the noble Earl I will withdraw my first Amendment now, on the understanding that I may raise it again on the Third Reading.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved, in subsection (6), to leave out the proviso. The noble Earl said: Your Lordships have discussed this rather fully, and I beg formally to move.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
Subsection (6), lines 7 to 15, leave out the proviso.—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
EARL RUSSELL: This second Amendment is also opposed, and I want to call your Lordships' attention to what it means. The proviso says that "notwithstanding any restrictions to the contrary, whether contained in this or any other Act"—including these Private Acts of Parliament—it shall be lawful for the Commissioners to grant a road service licence. Now here we do propose to disregard some of the provisions of these Private Acts. As I have said, the argument here is exactly the contrary. I could not have a better example than that of Oxford, which the Lord Chairman gave to your Lordships. The City of Oxford entered into a bargain which was of a rather peculiar character. In effect the bargain was this. The Council of the City of Oxford said to a private omnibus company: "We will exercise our licensing powers in such a way as to refuse a licence to any competitor and only give a licence to you." That bargain having been sanctioned by Parliament it would not, I think, be proper to describe it as an improper bargain, because we must assume that
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everything that Parliament sanctions is right. I do not know whether noble Lords opposite always assume that.
It is well known that councils who have these licensing powers are supposed to act judicially, and to consider each application for a licence on its merits. When they go and barter away their judicial discretion for some £800—now increased to £1,500—a year, and other considerations from the omnibus company, it does appear to us that the bargain is not necessarily in the public interest. In the particular case of Oxford there is a very strong case for the actual terms of the bargain made, and that is, no doubt, what induced Parliament to sanction it. The City of Oxford is free from a large number of unnecessary competing omnibuses. I think we are all agreed that regulated competition is what we want to aim at and not wild competition. They have succeeded in freeing the City from a large number of rival and unnecessary omnibuses, and in limiting the service to one company, by which they are paid a considerable sum of money for forgoing their judicial discretion. That seems to us a bargain which I should be prepared to describe as "improper" if Parliament had not assented to it.
There are other cases not quite so obvious as the Oxford case. We are proposing under this Part of the Bill, and the Traffic Commission, to get the whole of the motor services in this country into the hands of the Traffic Commissioners, so that all the services of the country shall be regulated in accordance with the requirements of traffic, and with the object of producing suitable regulated competition, providing a service which is not redundant but which is adequate, and leading in many cases, as your Lordships probably know, to the provision of unremunerative services as part of the consideration for remunerative services. If you are going to take out a large class of case, which as I think the Lord Chairman said went back to 1920—my information is that there have been thirteen cases in the last two years—if you take the whole of that sort of case away from the jurisdiction of the Commissioners it is obvious that you leave them without that general power of regulation which we think is so important that they ought not to be

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deprived of it. It is perfectly clear, I think, that the Commissioners would have regard—and the intention is that they should have regard—to any reasonable conditions and arrangements that exist. And of course it is perfectly clear that they will give preference to those who now occupy the roads, who, although they have no legal right or franchise, have obviously a moral and equitable right to be continued in the services which they are giving, so long as those services are satisfactory.
But I do not conceal from your Lordships that Oxford will lose £1,500 a year under this, because Oxford will no longer have the consideration to give. Your Lordships should also remember that the bargain which Oxford made cannot apply beyond the borough boundary, and any number of motor omnibuses that think it worth while to run up to the borough boundary and then have the passengers taken by this favoured company can do so. It is a question really of the public interest as against the private interest. These people have obtained these powers under Private Acts of Parliament when there was no such general control of the traffic of the country. Parliament has given them these powers, and I dare say in many cases not at all improperly, because it appeared to be the best bargain that could be made for that particular locality at that particular moment. But you cannot have a comprehensive system of control of traffic throughout the country unless you put those powers in the melting pot and give the Commissioner discretion to deal with them as he thinks fit, having regard, as he of course always would have regard, to what has been done in the past and to what the moral rights of the parties concerned are.
We therefore desire definitely that, notwithstanding these restrictions or these provisions, the Commissioner may grant such licences as he thinks fit, and unless he has that general and over-riding power we cannot see how you can obtain what we think far more important than these local bargains, and that is a general and universal control of the motor omnibus traffic of the country. It is a case of the public necessity against the particular interest, and our view is that the public interest is more important and ought to prevail. For that reason, we cannot accept the Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, we have all admired the skill with which the noble Earl has conducted this Bill, but I think we must all agree that in the last speech he has made he has laid down a new proposition, and that is that the Commissioners are to over-ride Acts of Parliament. I cannot think your Lordships will agree to that without more discussion than we have had. The noble Earl says that these Commissioners are practically to disregard powers which have been given by Acts of Parliament. He tells us that those powers have been given under different conditions, but I am not sure really that he is quite accurate in saying that, because the specific organisations which have been referred to have followed the evolution of the time and have spent a great deal of money in doing so. It seems very hard that when they have spent large sums of money in acquiring what amounts to a monopoly, and have kept abreast of the times and furnished a service which has been satisfactory, they should be told now that they are at the mercy of Commissioners. I think I am right in saying that the particular services in question are local services, and the owners are fully cognisant of the requirements of those localities, and do not interfere with the through services. If that is so, I should be very sorry indeed if it were laid down in this Bill that an entirely new system of government in this country should be put into a Road Traffic Bill, and that what has been enacted by Parliament with all the facts of the case before it should be set aside. I therefore hope that my noble friend will press his Amendment, and, if so, I shall go into the Lobby with him.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, this proviso appears to me to involve a novel and most dangerous principle. The plain reading of it is that it gives the Commissioners absolute power in their discretion to over-ride provisions in Acts of Parliament. The noble Earl rather suggests that this power, if granted, will only be used in very special cases, for instance in the Oxford case, where he thinks that Parliament sanctioned an improper bargain. Even if that were so, I think it would be a most improper power to give the Commissioners. But the clause does not rest there, because it says in effect that whenever the Commissioners think fit they may over-ride

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the provisions in Private Acts, and grant licences where the Private Acts have forbidden such licences to be granted. If the noble Earl thinks that such a power ought to be given to the Commissioners, it ought to be safeguarded most carefully. Any such power should require the sanction of an Order in Council or something of that sort. But
Resolved in the negative and Amendment to the Amendment agreed to accordingly.
Clause 64 [Drivers' and conductors' licences]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the first two Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 50, line 4, after ("(2)") insert: ("A person shall be disqualified for obtaining")
Page 50, line 5, leave out ("shall not be granted unless the applicant") and insert ("unless he").—(Earl Russell.)
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, after subsection (3), to insert:—
"(4) A licence to drive or act as conductor of a public service vehicle may at any time be suspended or revoked by the Commissioners by whom it was granted upon the ground that, by reason of his conduct or physical disability, the holder is not a fit person to hold such a licence."
The noble Earl said: MY Lords, this is little more than drafting. It is to pro-
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simply to give power to over-ride Acts of Parliament appears to me to be contrary to all traditions, and cannot be justified by any consideration of what the noble Earl called public necessity.
On Question, Whether the proviso shall stand part of the clause?—
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 11; Not-Contents,36.

CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Chaplin, V.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Monkswell, L.

Parmoor, L. (L. President.)

Amulree, L. [Teller.]

Passfield, L.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.)

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Russell, E.

Marks, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Beauchamp, E.

Knutsford, V.

Hayter, L.

Cranbrook, E. [Teller.]

Novar, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Howe, E.

Ullswater, V.

Jessel, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Lamington, L.

Leven and Melville, E.

Alvingham, L.

Leigh, L.

Lucan, E.

Askwith, L. [Teller.]

Newton, L.

Morton, E.

Auckland, L.

Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

Stanhope, E.

Carson, L.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Redesdale, L.

Shandon, L.

Allendale, V.

Danesfort, L.

Sinclair, L.

Hood, V.

Dynevor, L.

Swaythling, L.

Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

Elphinstone, L.

Templemore, L.

Erskine, L.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

vide power for revoking the licence of a driver or a conductor in proper circumstances. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 18, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 67:
Validity of licences in other areas and backing of licences.
(2) The Commissioners of any traffic area, on backing a road service licence, may as respects their area impose any condition which they might have imposed on granting the licence, and all the provisions of this Part of this Act as to the granting of road service licences shall apply to the backing of road service licences.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection (2), after the second "licence," to insert "or vary any condition attached to the licence by the Commissioners by whom the licence was granted"; before "the granting of" to insert "applications for road service licences and the granting, refusal, suspension or revoking of such licences and matters connected therewith"; and to leave out "the granting of road service licences." The noble

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Earl said: My Lords, the object of these three Amendments is to make it clear that the Commissioners have exactly the same powers as to attaching conditions as to suspension, revocation and so on in connection with the backing of road service licences as with the original grant of a licence. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 51, line 23, after ("licence") insert ("or vary any condition attached to the licence by the Commissioners by whom the licence was granted")
Page 51, line 24, after ("to") insert ("applications for road service licences and the granting, refusal, suspension or revocation of such licences and matters connected therewith")
Page 51, line 24, leave out ("the granting of road service licences").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 71 [Records of licences]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 13, leave out ("officer") and insert ("person").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 73:
Regulation of conduct of passengers.
73.—(1) The Minister may make regulations generally as to the conduct of passengers in public service vehicles and any such regulations may in particular, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision—
(a) authorise the removal from a public service vehicle of any person infringing the regulations by any police constable or by the driver or conductor of the vehicle;
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection 1 (a), to leave out "any police constable or by," and, after "vehicle," to insert "or on the request; of the driver or conductor by any police constable." The noble Earl said: My Lords, these two Amendments provide that a police constable should only act at the request of a driver or conductor. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 54, line 1, leave out ("any police constable or by")
Page 54, line 2, after ("vehicle") insert ("or on the request of the driver or conductor by any police constable").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 75:
Appointment of officers.
75.—(1) For the purpose of the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to the certification of fitness of vehicles, the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury, appoint such officers (in this Part of this Act referred to as certifying officers) as he thinks fit, and those officers shall perform such duties in relation to the examination of vehicles, the issue of certificates of fitness and otherwise, as the Minister may require.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, after the first "officers," to insert "being experienced qualified engineers." The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is obvious, I think. It is merely to try to ensure that those charged with the duty of inspecting public service vehicles of all sorts shall be properly qualified engineers. I do not know whether the Minister is able to accept it or not. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 55, line 7, after ("officers") insert ("being experienced qualified engineers").—(Earl Howe.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this clause gives power to the Minister to appoint officers both as certifying and as public vehicle examiners. The noble Earl has an Amendment here and a subsequent Amendment on the same point. I think that the Minister does not really require direction as to whom he is to appoint. He is not in the least likely to appoint inexperienced or unqualified persons, and these words are unnecessary.
EARL HOWE: I do not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 77 [Appeals to courts of summary jurisdiction]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords. The first Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 38, after ("the") insert ("holder of or an").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the next Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 41, after ("grant") insert ("or by the suspension or revocation of"). —(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 79 [Salaries and expenses]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, my Amendment to this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 41, leave out ("the") and insert ("this").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 80 [Accounts and audit]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these two Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 58, line 2, leave out ("books of")
Page 58, line 2, leave out the second ("books") and insert ("records").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to insert as a new subsection:—
"(2) All accounts kept under this section shall, for the purposes of subsection (5) of Section three of the Roads Act, 1920, be deemed to be part of the account of the Road Fund which under that subsection is to be prepared by the Minister."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this new subsection as to the keeping of accounts is to ensure that the accounts of the Commissioners shall be subject to audit by the Controller and Auditor General. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 5, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 81:
Stands and stopping places.
81.—(1) A local authority may make orders for determining the roads which may be used by public service vehicles in the area or in any part of the area of the authority and for fixing stands and stopping places for public service vehicles and as to the manner of using such stands and stopping places.
(8) Nothing in this section shall empower any local authority to make any order under this section with respect to a stand, the site of which is owned by a railway company, in any railway station or in any yard adjoining or connected therewith without the consent of the railway company.
(9) In this section the expression "stopping places" means the points at which public service vehicles may stop for a longer time than is necessary for the taking up and setting down of passengers, and in subsection (1) of this section the expression "local authority" means the council of a county or county borough or the council of any urban district having a population according to the last census for the time being of over twenty thousand, and the council of any other urban district or of any rural district which the Minister may by order declare to be a local authority for the purposes of this section.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "roads which may" and insert "highways which may or may not". The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name and to which the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, has given Notice of an Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 7, leave out ("roads which may") and insert ("highways which may or may not").—(Earl Russell.)
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, to leave out "may or". The noble Earl said: My Lords, there is, I think, a rather new principle introduced here. At the moment every subject has the right to use the King's highway, and I feel that it would be very much fairer if local authorities had to lay down which roads may not be used. I do not think it can be suggested that motor omnibus companies are going to use all the small roads entirely. It would not pay them to do so; but occasions must arise when they may have to use them in consideration of the condition of traffic and it would be better, I think, if the local authorities had to prove before the Commissioners which roads should not be used, instead of being able to lay down merely which roads should be used. I believe that for some time the expression "may not" has been used in Private Acts of Parliament. There is more or less a precedent for using "may not" in Private Acts and I feel that it would be better if the words were used here.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
Leave out ("may or").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I do not think this Amendment serves any

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possible useful purpose. The noble Earl seems to think that it makes some difference to the meaning of the clause, but in fact it does not. I believe he said something about the local authority proving before the Commissioners which roads they might close; but the effect is this. They may make orders, as it stood in the Bill originally, for determining the roads which may be used by public vehicles. Now we say the highways which may or may not be used. Let us suppose there are eighty roads in a town. There are two possible ways of arranging which roads public service vehicles may use. One way is to enumerate six highways which they may use, the assumption being that the other seventy-four may not be used by them. It is the other way that the noble Earl wishes to make essential. He wants to have put in the list all the seventy-four highways that they may not use. Administratively that would be very inconvenient and in fact impossible. There is no point in publishing a long list when a short list would do, and the actual effect of the legislation suggested by the noble Earl is nil. I am afraid we cannot accept the Amendment. From the administrative point of view it would be very inconvenient.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, surely the public have a right to use all roads, and if they are to be excluded from some roads they should, be excluded from the fewer number, not from the larger. Therefore it would be much fairer for the authorities to be able to say which roads may not be used. As it is you are giving the authorities power to say all these roads may be used. We want to know what may not be used; that would be a very much smaller number than those that may be used. We do not want to give the authorities power to say: "You may use these roads," but only to give them power to exclude roads which may not be used.
EARL RUSSELL: The noble Viscount is really mistaken. It is not a case of the roads being used by the public, it is a case of roads being used by public service vehicles, which is a different thing. Public service vehicles are very large and there are some roads—indeed the majority of roads—which it would be most inconvenient for them to use, and
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it would be inconvenient also to a town if you required it to set out a schedule of all the roads which these public service vehicles shall not use. Take Leicester for example. That town would have to publish an enormous schedule and it is much easier to specify those roads suitable for public service which public service vehicles may use. Such a schedule could be added to if on proper representation it was thought right to do so. It is a matter of administrative inconvenience.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, original Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection (1), after "fixing," to insert "thereon." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting amendment, my Lords.
Amendment moved—
Page 58, line 9, after ("fixing") insert ("thereon").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to leave out subsection (8). The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is no longer necessary in view of the Amendment in Clause 81.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 12, leave out subsection (8).—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection (9), to leave out all words after the second "means" and to insert "as regards a, county borough or an urban district having a population according to the last census for the time being of over twenty thousand, and any other urban or any rural district the council of which the Minister may by order declare to be a local authority for the purposes of this section, the council of the borough or district, and as regards any other area the council of the county." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is an Amendment to secure there shall be no overlapping of authorities. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 22, leave out from ("means") to end of clause and insert the said new words.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Returns to be made by holders of road service licences.
82.—(1) It shall he the duty of the holder of a road service licence to keep such records and to make to the Minister such returns as the Minister may prescribe for the purposes of this Part of this Act.
(2) If the holder of any such licence fails to comply with the provisions of this section, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, and in the case of a continuing offence to a fine not exceeding five pounds for every day luring which the offence continues.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "It shall be the duty of" and to insert "any person carrying on the business of operating public service vehicles to keep such accounts and records in relation thereto and to make to the Minister such financial and statistical returns, and in such manner and at such times, as the Minister may from time to time require." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment sets out in a more convenient form the provisions as to the Minister's power of submission of accounts and returns. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 29, leave out from the first ("of") to end of line 32, and insert the said new words.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the next Amendment, in subsection (2), is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 33, leave out ("the holder of any such licence") and Insert ("any person").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 85:
General power of making regulations.
85. The Minister may make regulations for any purpose for which regulations may be made under this Part of this Act and for prescribing anything which may be prescribed under this Part of this Act, and generally for the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect, and in particular, but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions, may make regulations with respect to any of the following matters—
(h) the determination of the number of passengers a vehicle is adapted to carry and for regulating the number of persons to be carried therein and the manner in which such number is to be shown thereon;
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(i) the securing of the safe custody and re-delivery of any property accidentally left in a public service vehicle and fixing the charges made in respect thereof;
and different regulations may be made as respects different classes or descriptions of public service vehicles, and as respects the same class and description of public service vehicles in different circumstances.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the first three Amendments in my name on this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 61, line 13, after ("a") insert ("public service")
Page 61, line 14, leave out ("for regulating")
Page 61, line 15, leave out from ("number") to end of line 17 and insert ("who may be carried").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to add to paragraph (h): "(i) the carriage of luggage and goods on public service vehicles." The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Minister will undoubtedly require to make regulations about keeping gangways free from luggage and things of that sort. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 17, after ("thereon") insert the said paragraph.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, after paragraph (i), to insert: "(k) the equipment to be carried by public service vehicles." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this relates to regulations concerning equipment such as jacks and fire extinguishers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 21, after ("thereof") insert the said paragraph.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 92:
Application to Scotland.
92. This Part of this Act shall apply to Scotland subject to the following modifications:—

(a) The expression "borough" shall mean a large burgh as defined in the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929:

(b) Section seventy-seven shall have effect with the substitution for an appeal to a court of summary jurisdiction of an appeal to the sheriff within whose jurisdiction the applicant resides:

(c) The local authority for the purpose of the provisions of subsection (1) of Section eighty-one shall be in a burgh the magistrates of the burgh, and in a county the county council:

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(d) References to Section sixty-eight of the Public Health Act, 1925, shall be construed as references to Section one hundred of this Act.

EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in paragraph (a), before "borough," to insert "county." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is for the purpose of applying the Act to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 6, after ("expression") insert ("county").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, after the first "The" in paragraph (c), to insert "expression 'local authority' means a county or town council provided that the." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is for the same purpose as the last Amendment, and so is the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 13, after the first ("The") insert ("expression 'Local authority' means a county or town council provided that the").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 17, leave out paragraph (d). —(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 93:
Provisions as to regulations.
93.—(1) Before any regulations are made under this Act they shall be laid in draft before both Houses of Parliament and such regulations shall not be made unless both Houses by Resolution approve the draft either without modification or addition or with modifications or additions to which both Houses agree but upon such approval being given the Minister or the Commissioners by whom the regulations are proposed to be made may make the regulations in the form in which they have been so approved and the regulations on being so made shall be of full force and effect.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to leave out subsection (1) and insert:—
"(1) Any regulations made under this Act shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the regulation shall be annulled, it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or to the making of new regulations."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this deals with the regulation-making power and proposes to omit the subsection as printed in the Bill in order to insert the subsection as printed on the Order Paper. This is the more usual form of regulation-making power and this covers all regulations in the Bill with the exception of the one on the highway code. The Amendiment as put into the Bill on Committee stage providing for a draft with, or without, modification is really quite unsuitable, and I hope your Lordships will now see your way to restore the more usual form of clause. The regulations of the Ministry of Transport are very numerous and a vast majority of them deal with very small matters. They also deal, many of them, with matters which are highly technical in 'which Parliament could not take a very active interest, but if there is an active interest in any regulations then, of course, the matter can be raised by moving to annul them. We think this proposal will give Parliament sufficient protection. I have consulted the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition who, I am sorry, is not here, but I hope I satisfied him. I am not entitled to say that I did, but I hope I did.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 22, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I did not understand the allusion to the highway code. If I understand the noble Earl aright, the words he is now using do not affect regulations under the highway code. Can he explain that?
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I ant sorry I was not clear. What I meant was that this regulation does not apply to the highway code. The highway code is to have a special regulation-making power of its own which is to provide for the affirmative Resolution. It is to have a separate and more stringent regulation-making power. This is the ordinary form of regulation-making power for ordinary regulations made by other Departments.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, suppose Parliament wishes to make some alterations in the regulations—which is quite possible—let us assume they are alterations for the better. According to the existing clause that can be done, and,

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if both Houses agree to those alterations, the regulations so altered become law. According to the clause of the noble Earl there is no power to alter the regulations at all. Both Houses of Parliament have to take them and either reject them in toto or accept them in toto. There is no power to make modifications. Is it not desirable that there should be power to make modifications Suppose those modifications are necessary, it would be undesirable to reject the whole regulations on account of the necessary modifications. Could the noble Earl consider that and tell me whether it would not be possible to have the clause in such a form that both Houses could make the necessary modifications if any?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition is not present, I take it that this clause is being inserted in consultation with him.
EARL RUSSELL: Yes, but I am not entitled to say he approves of it. Re told me he would tell me when we came to it, but unfortunately he is not here.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am not in a position to tell the noble Earl whether the noble Marquess approves, and I support the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, which seemed to indicate definitely that while modifications are dealt with in an earlier clause of the Bill that provision does not exist in the new clause which is now proposed for the consideration of your Lordships' House. I do not know whether that is in accordance with something which the noble Earl knows but which I do not know.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I am very anxious not to say anything in the absence of the noble Marquess which would not be perfectly fair, but I think I may go so far as to say, and in doing that I think I am not going beyond anything the noble Marquess would be willing to say, that there are objections to this power of modification by Parliament. There are obvious objections and I am rather astonished that the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, should suggest it being done. It would be an extraordinarily unusual power in the first place, and in the second place, supposing the two Houses made different modifi-
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cations there is no machinery by which the two Houses could be brought together in order to get the modifications agreed upon. There is no such procedure as in the case of Amendments to a Bill. Amendment A might be made by the House of Lords, and Amendment B by the House of Commons, and you would not know where you were at the end of it. There would be no provision for any identical set of regulations being approved by both Houses.
Lord Danesfort seemed to think that Parliament might be extremely useful in these matters. Parliament would be useful in preventing injustice being done to anyone, or in preventing an excess of jurisdiction, but as far as the matter of the regulations is concerned in my opinion there could be nothing less fruitful than discussion by Parliament. Regulations as to the construction of motor cars are highly technical matters. What would happen in practice would be that if the regulations are in some way defective, or appear to be so, a Motion in either House of Parliament for an annulment would no doubt be made and carried. The Minister, influenced by the discussion, would then proceed to lay !egulations which would meet with the approval of Parliament. That is the way the thing would be done. Parliament still retains full control under the proposal which is now made, but the suggestion that regulations should be modified by Parliament is really an impracticable suggestion and is quite contrary to precedent.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert as a new subsection:—
"Before making regulations under this Act the Minister shall consult with such representative organisations as he thinks fit."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this originally appeared in Clause 29 relating to regulations under Part I of the Act. It is now proposed to insert it here to make it applicable to all regulations made under the Act. I think that should satisfy the noble Earl, Lord Howe, because in the matter of all regulations the Minister will consult representative people before making regula-

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tions, and that, of course, will be another guarantee of the suitability of the regulations.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 32, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 94:
Forgery, &c. of licences.
94. If any person forges within the meaning of the Forgery Act, 1913, or, with intent to deceive, alters or uses any licence under any Part of this Act, or with intent to deceive, lends any such licence or allows it to be used by any other person, or for the purpose of obtaining the grant of any such licence to himself or any other person, knowingly makes any false statement, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to leave out Clause 94, and insert the following new clause:—
Forgery, &c., of licences and certificates.
"( ).—(1) If, with intent to deceive, any person—

(a) forges within the meaning of the Forgery Act, 1913, or alters or uses or lends or allows to be used by any other person a licence under any Part of this Act or a certificate of insurance or certificate of security within the meaning of Part II of this Act: or

(b) makes or has in his possession any document so closely resembling such a licence or certificate as to be calculated to deceive,

he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable—

(i) on conviction on indictment to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months;

(ii) on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to both such imprison ment and fine.

(2) If any person for the purpose of obtaining the grant of any licence to himself or any other person knowingly makes any false statement, or for the purpose of obtaining the issue of a certificate of insurance or of a certificate of security under Part II of this Act makes any false statement or withholds arty material information, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
(3) If any person issues a certificate of insurance or certificate of security which is to his knowledge false in any material particular, he shall be liable to imprisonment
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for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
(4) If any police constable has reasonable cause to believe that any licence or certificate of insurance or certificate of security produced to him in pursuance of the provisions of this Act by the driver of a motor vehicle is a document in relation to which an offence under this section -has been committed, he may seize the document, and when any document is seized under this section, the person from whom it was taken shall, unless previously charged with an offence under this section, be summoned before a court of summary jurisdiction to account for his possession of the said document and the court shall make such order respecting the disposal of the said document and award such costs as the justice of the case may require.
(5) In this section the expressions 'certificate of insurance' and 'certificate of security' include any document issued under regulations made by the Minister in pursuance of his power under Part II of this Act to prescribe evidence which may be produced in lieu of a certificate of insurance or a certificate of security."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this new clause deals with forgery and it combines Clauses 37 and 94, both of which dealt with forgery in the Bill as originally drafted. This new clause also provides that a police constable may seize a document which he suspects of being a forgery. That is obviously proper because otherwise the document would not be available when it was wanted. I think there is nothing further that I need say because, although this is a long Amendment, it really does not amount to anything more than a question of drafting.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 94 and insert the said new clause.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 95 [Prosecutions and penalties for offences]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to make it clear that imprisonment cannot be imposed on a first conviction.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, lines 20 and 21, leave out ("on summary conviction in respect of each") and insert ("in the case of the first").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 22, leave out ("or") and insert ("and").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 98 [Application of fives and fees under Part 1]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, my first Amendment is to secure that all fines in respect of offences under this Act shall be dealt with in the mime manner and go to the Road Fund.
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 17, leave out ("Part I of"). —(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is consequential on the last Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 20, leave out ("that Part") and insert ("Part I of this Act").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 99 [Special provisions as to Scotland]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this Amendment and the next two Amendments are for the purpose of' applying this Bill to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 11, leave out from ("the") to ("or") in line 12, and insert ("purpose of the payment of the consideration for a transfer under Section fifty of this Act").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 69, line 19, leave out subsection (4).
Page 69, line 21, leave out ("thirty-seven and section").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to insert the following new subsection:—
"(6) Any person who aids, abets, counsels, procures, or incites any other person to commit an offence against this Act shall be guilty of an offence, and shall be liable on conviction to the same punishment as might be imposed on conviction of the first mentioned offence, provided that any person who aids, abets, counsels, procures or incites any person employed by him to drive, or subject to his orders in driving a motor vehicle on a road, to commit an offence against Section ten of this Act, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such fine and imprisonment."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment for the
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purposes of Scotland. It is consequential on the Amendment made in subsection (5) of Clause 10 because that subsection as it now stands is inappropriate to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 33, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 100 [Power to provide parking places in Scotland]:
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, at the end of subsection (7), to insert:—
"Provided that where the local authority provides a parking place for the use of, or which may be used by, public service vehicles, the local authority may if it thinks fit by order declare that this subsection shall not apply to public service vehicles either absolutely or to such extent as may be specified in the order."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is also for the purposes of Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 33, at end insert the said proviso.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 101:
Interpretation.
101.—(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
"Owner" in relation to any vehicle includes a person having the use of a vehicle under a hiring or a hire-purchase agreement:
(2) Parts I and III of this Act, other than the section of this Act making provision with respect to extraordinary traffic, shall, subject as hereinafter provided, apply to vehicles and persons in the public service of the Crown, and in the case of any such vehicle the person whom the department in whose service the vehicle is used names as the person actually responsible shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act to be the person who causes in permits the vehicle to be on any road:
Provided that—

(a) the Minister may by regulation, subject to such conditions as may be specified in the regulation, vary in relation to vehicles used for naval, military or Air Force purposes the provisions of the First Schedule to this Act; and

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(b) the restriction imposed by this Act on persons under twenty-one years with respect to the driving of heavy locomotives, light locomotives motor tractors or heavy motor cars, and the provisions of the section of this Act limiting the time for which drivers or certain vehicles may remain continuously on duty shall not apply.

EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved, in the definition of "owner", to leave out all words after "'owner' in relation to" and to insert "a vehicle which is the subject of a hiring agreement or hire purchase agreement, means the person in possession of the vehicle under that agreement." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 11, leave out from ("to") to the end of line 13, and insert ("a vehicle which is the subject of a hiring agreement or hire purchase agreement, means the person in possession of the vehicle under that agreement").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to omit the proviso and after "Provided that," to insert:—
"the provisions of this Act which respectively—

(a) impose restrictions on persons under twenty-one years with respect to the driving of heavy locomotives, light locomotives, motor tractors or heavy motors cars;

(b) regulate the number of trailers which may be drawn by motor vehicles;

(c) limit the time for which drivers of certain vehicles may remain continuously on duty;

shall not apply in the case of motor vehicles used for naval, military or Air Force purposes while being driven by persons for the time being subject to the orders of any member of the armed forces of the Crown, and the Minister may by regulations, subject to such conditions as may be specified in the regulations, vary in relation to any such vehicles as aforesaid while being driven as aforesaid the provisions of the First Schedule to this Act."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a re-drafting of the provisions with regard to the exemption of naval, military or Air Force vehicles. The words "while being driven by persons for the time being subject to the orders of any member of the armed forces of the Crown" cover Territorials and contractors' vehicles on mancœuvres, and so on. The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, was anxious about the matter. I am told that it now satisfies everybody except the stores
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branch of the Admiralty who appear not to be included. I do not know whether we can find words for them.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 11, leave out from ("that") to end of clause, and insert the said new words.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (2) to leave out "restriction imposed by this Act on persons under twenty-one years with respect to the driving of heavy locomotives, light locomotives, motor tractors or heavy motor cars, and the". The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to deal with the age limit for Government drivers. I am not so much concerned about the drivers of the armed forces of the Crown, in the Navy, Army or Air Force. Those I am concerned about are the drivers of such vehicles as those which belong to the Stationery Office, for instance, or to the Stores branch of the Admiralty which the noble Earl just mentioned. There is a further point relating to Post Office drivers. At present I believe these men are employed by civilian contractors who work under the Post Office, but I am not sure whether the clause as it stands would embrace those drivers—whether they are, in fact, technically in the service of the Crown within the meaning of the Act. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell us about that. Even if they are not in the service of the Crown at present, it is possible that some Minister, perhaps belonging to the Party to which the noble Earl belongs, may one day decide that the State shall take over all the. Post Office vans, of which there are many thousands scattered all over the country. This is a very serious proposition, and I think that in that case these vehicles ought to be subjected to the same age limit for drivers as civilian vehicles are. I do not wish to hamper in any way, the Navy, Army or Air Force, but I think that civilian drivers in the Government service ought to come under the ordinary provisions of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 3, leave out from ("the") to ("provisions") in line 7.—(Earl Howe.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I think the noble Earl has moved his Amendment to the words as printed in the Bill. He has not perhaps observed that your Lordships have accepted my Amendment to substitute these words:—

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"shall not apply in the case of motor vehicles used for naval, military or Air Force purposes while being driven by persons for the time being subject to the orders of any member of the armed forces of the Crown."
Post Office vans are not under the orders of a member of the armed forces of the Crown, and I think, therefore, that the noble Earl's apprehensions are misplaced.
EARL HOWE: I do not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Limits of Speed.

Class of Vehicle.

Maximum Speed—Miles per hour.

1. Heavy Locomotives.

(a) Within any city, town or village

3

(b) Elsewhere

5

2. Light Locomotives.

(a) When not drawing a trailer or more than two trailers, if all the wheels of both the locomotive and any trailer drawn thereby are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

8

(b) In any other case

5

3. Heavy Motor Cars and Motor Tractors.

(1) Passenger Vehicles—

(a) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres and not drawing a trailer

30

(b) In any other case

16

(2) Goods Vehicles and Motor Tractors—

(i) Without trailer—

(a) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres

20

(b) If all the wheels are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

16

(ii) With trailer—

(a) if all the wheels, both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer, are fitted with pneumatic tyres

16

(b) If all the wheels, both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer, are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

12

(iii) In any other case

5

Class of Vehicle.

Maximum Speed—Miles per hour.

4. Motor Cars and Motor Cycles.

(1) Passenger Vehicles—

(a) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres, not drawing a trailer, and constructed to carry not more than eight persons in addition to the driver

No limit.

(b) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres, and the vehicle is not drawing a trailer, and is constructed to carry more than eight persons in addition to the driver

30

(c) In any other case

20

(2) Goods Vehicles—

(i) Without trailer

(a) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres

30

(b) If all the wheels are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

20

(ii) With trailer—

(a) If all the wheels, both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer, are fitted with pneumatic tyres

16

(b) If all the wheels, both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer, are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

12

(iii) In any other case

5

5. Invalid Carriages

16

EARL HOWE EARL HOWE moved, in paragraph 3, in relation to passenger vehicles (a), to leave out "30" and to insert "35." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have on the Paper a number of Amendments to this Schedule, but their purpose is the same and they are consequential upon one another. Their object is to simplify the Schedule of speed limits. Your Lordships will no doubt recollect that on previous occasions when this point has been discussed the Government have been urged to coordinate, and in particular to simplify, the speed limits set forth in the Schedule. I think the noble Earl in charge of the Bill more or less gave an undertaking on this point to Lord Brentford, who strongly urged upon him

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the need of simplifying this Schedule. I understood the noble Earl to give an undertaking that he would do so, but he now proposes Amendments which, instead of simplifying the existing speed limits by reducing them, leaves them at exactly the same number. He proposes only one concession which I submit will be of little use. I shall come to that in a moment.
My Amendments would reduce the number of speed limits to three. I also place the maximum speed limit in this Schedule at thirty-five miles an hour. My reason for using that figure is that it was recommended by the Royal Commission. I have not yet heard any reason from the noble Earl why he has disregarded the advice of the Royal Commission in that respect and has placed the limit at thirty. He has adopted the recommendations of the Royal Commission in almost every other respect, and I do not understand why he should depart from it here. Again, it seems to be unnecessary to have one sort of speed limit for a passenger-carrying vehicle and another for a goods-carrying vehicle. Probably the chassis are identical and the weights carried are the same. Under this Schedule the one-ton van is limited to a speed of thirty miles an hour, but a private vehicle, such as a Rolls-Royce, which probably weighs two and a half or even three tons, may go, if it can, at 100 miles an hour. The noble Earl refused my proposed speed limit of forty miles an hour with some asperity.
Another consideration which I should like to put to your Lordships is that too many speed limits do not make for safety. I think more danger is caused on the road by having vehicles proceeding at various rates of speed than from any other cause. It leads to drivers making attempts to pass other vehicles, and this leads to what is called in the daily Press and elsewhere "cutting in" and "cutting out." To have a number of vehicles proceeding at widely different speeds does not make for safety. Furthermore, the speeds which I have endeavoured to outline in my Amendments are those more or less normally followed by the various classes of vehicle in their ordinary work. Everybody knows that the existing speed limit has been very largely disregarded, even by those who have been in charge of its administration—I mean by the police in certain places. I do not want to enlarge
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upon that point now. The speeds that I have put down are those more or less normally used by the vehicles to which they apply.
Another point that I should like to press upon your Lordships is that of late years goods traffic has increasingly been passing to the roads, and the result is that a great traffic has been built up. Any of your Lordships who know some of our great arterial roads, such as Watling Street, will know exactly what I mean. Some of us may not like that state of affairs and may think it more desirable that the goods should be carried by rail, but the fact remains that the traders of the country have found it more to their advantage and cheaper to take goods by road. I think we ought to be on our guard against imposing any limits upon those vehicles which may have a tendency to increase costs. I cannot help feeling that, if we impose unduly low limits upon certain classes of vehicles, we shall raise the costs. I think that some of the limits proposed by the noble Earl will have exactly that effect, and I do not want to see that come about. One of the limits poposed in this Schedule is eight miles an hour. I submit to your Lordships that, if this speed is strictly adhered to, it is absolutely uneconomical. If it were an average speed of eight miles an hour there might be something to be said for it, but an average of eight miles an hour means that the vehicle must at times exceed that speed by four or five miles an hour at least. I think the limit of eight miles an hour is much too low.
The noble Earl proposes a limit of twenty miles an hour for motor omnibuses and motor coaches fitted with solid tyres and drawing a trailer. Motor coaches and motor omnibuses do not draw trailers, and practically no motor coach or motor omnibus is to-day being constructed with solid tyres. I suggest that this concession does not help industry at all. The noble Earl proposes to raise the limit from sixteen to twenty miles an hour. I would really urge upon your Lordships that it is desirable that we should reduce the number of limits written down in the Schedule. My purpose has been to reduce them to three, and if we can have three limits instead of six I think it will make the Bill much more workable, and more easier to administer. I am not wedded to the actual figures, and if the noble Earl, or your Lordships,

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think that they are too high, I am certainly prepared to modify them, but I submit that we should try to secure simplification of the limits laid down in the Schedule.
Amendment moved—
Page 75, line 20, leave out ("30") and insert ("35").—(Earl Howe.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I think that probably it would be for the convenience of the House to discuss the whole question on this Amendment, and to say what I have to say upon this Amendment. Your Lordships will see that we have produced a new Schedule, and it is to be found on the Amendment Paper. It does not please the noble Earl, and he thinks it has still got far too many limits. I am inclined to agree with him, and if he can tell us how to reduce them we shall be very much obliged to him. He has an Amendment here increasing these speeds, which I am afraid we could not accept. I can only tell him that to achieve even this amount of simplification—and it is not as much as I should like—of the limits suggested by the Royal Commission has been an extraordinarily difficult task, and rather like putting together a jig-saw puzzle in which none of the pieces would fit. If the noble Earl would care to come to the Ministry and spend two or three hours playing with this jig-saw puzzle we shall be glad to welcome him, and I believe he will feel that the task was not quite so easy as perhaps he now thinks it is. I am proposing not to take the Third Reading of this Bill before to-morrow week and, therefore, I shall welcome any assistance which he can give.
It has been an extraordinarily difficult thing even to make this small attempt at simplifying the limits that we have made. I will tell your Lordships the principles, so far as it was possible to apply principles, on which we have proceeded. The rates of speed for heavy locomotives and light locomotives have not been altered, as they are generally agreed and they do not present any serious difficulties in enforcement. The speed limits for all other types of vehicles have been reduced to five in number—namely, 30, 20, 16, 8 and 5 miles per hour. In order to obtain this simplification certain alterations have been made. Passenger vehicles which are heavy motor cars, on solid rubber tyres, for example, the ordinary London omni-
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bus on solid tyres, have been put up from 16 to 20 miles per hour. Goods vehicles drawing a separate trailer where both vehicles are fitted with solid rubber tyres have been put down from 12 to 8 miles per hour. Eight miles per hour is the present maximum for these. A vehicle drawing a separate trailer is in any case undesirable from the traffic point of view, and should not travel at a high speed, in order that other vehicles may overtake it without difficulty. I think your Lordships who try to overtake vehicles drawing trailers will appreciate the point of that. Invalid carriages have been put up from 16 to 20 miles per hour.
There are good reasons for imposing speed limits on goods vehicles and public service vehicles as against the private motor car. A goods vehicle, even if it is classified as a motor car, that is under 2½tons unladen, may very well, and often does, carry a load of 3 tons or more, and the total laden weight may therefore be over 5 tons. This is far in excess of the total laden weight of the heaviest private car. The amount of damage in a smash depends largely on the momentum of the vehicles. There is also, of course, the question of the damage to the road by the additional weight. If there were no speed limit at all for commercial vehicles, or if it were too high, the employer would be inclined to base his schedules and time tables on higher and higher average speeds. This would certainly be dangerous to the public and impose a considerable strain on the driver. Finally, there is the argument based on the damage to the roads. A goods vehicle of 2 tons (which would therefore be in the motor car class) carrying a 2-ton load, even on pneumatic tyres, can do considerable damage to lightly-constructed roads if driven at a high speed.
We have had to consider all these matters and we have succeeded in producing a Schedule. I am very far from saying that it is a perfect Schedule. We hope that the noble Earl will come and assist us, and we will undertake to give him a very pleasant hour or two, at the end of which I think he will come to the conclusion that the matter is not quite so easy as he now believes. The noble Earl proposes to put up all the speeds which we have put in the Schedule. We cannot accept that. We

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have put the speeds here as high as we think they ought to be, and we have put them above those recommended by the Royal Commission, and we do not think they ought to be put higher. I am afraid, therefore, that I cannot accept this or the noble Earl's other Amendments. Before the new Schedule is moved I would like to call your attention to a misprint on the Amendment Paper. It is in paragraph 3 (2) (b). Your Lordships will see that after "(b) in any other case" there is a blank. The figure 5 should appear. I admit in conclusion that the subject is difficult, and I am far from saying that the Schedule proposed is entirely satisfactory; but after a great deal of thought and anxious care we have done the best we can do, and I ask your Lordships to accept the revised Schedule which we are proposing to insert.
EARL HOWE: Will the noble Earl tell us why he has departed from the figure of 35 miles an hour recommended by the Royal Commission? Furthermore, if the people on whose behalf I speak, and I myself, would like to come round and discuss this matter with him, do I understand that we shall be received at the Ministry? On that understanding I am perfectly prepared to withdraw my Amendment.
EARL RUSSELL: We will receive the noble Earl with open arms, and what is more will let him leave—we will not detain him. With regard to the figure of 35, the view which the Minister took was that it was extremely likely in practice to be exceeded, and that it was bound to be before the police could take action. It was considered that this was too high a speed for large motor coaches, carrying the number of people they do carry, and that having regard to public safety and the damage to the roads it was not desirable to allow that speed.
VISCOUNT ULLSWATER: My Lords, may I enquire whether there is any provision in the Bill for the speeds at which these goods vehicles can travel being painted upon the vehicle?—because with this great number of speeds it will be extremely difficult for the police or for other persons to recognise at once whether a vehicle is going at the speed at which it is allowed to go or whether it is exceeding it. This might to some extent be obviated, at all events for the
338
benefit of the police, if it were insisted that in each case the maximum speed at which a vehicle was allowed to travel were painted on the vehicle.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, that is a very germane question, and it has already been considered by the Minister. I may say at once that the Minister has power under this Bill by regulation to prescribe any mark of this sort that is necessary, and he has under consideration whether it will be desirable to prescribe some mark, and whether it should be done by way of coloured discs or painted numbers or in some other way. We do feel that the police cannot be expected to know on sight in what particular category of speed the vehicle will come.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I hope that the noble Earl and his advisers will not be moved by the persuasive eloquence of the noble Earl (Lord Howe) into raising the speed limits unduly, and if for no other reason than that, if you have a heavy vehicle of five or six tons weight travelling at 35 miles an hour, its vibration causes very serious damage to the roads. The higher speed almost doubles or trebles the damage done. In these days when we are compelled to spend such enormous sums upon repairing and maintaining the roads of the country it would be disastrous if an additional burden were placed on the ratepayers by increasing the speed of vehicles.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to leave out the First Schedule and insert the following schedule:—

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Limits of Speed.

Class of Vehicle.

Maximum Speed—Miles per hour.

1. Passenger Vehicles, that is to say vehicles constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects:—

(1) if all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres and the vehicle is not drawing a trailer—

(a) if the vehicle is adapted to carry not more than seven passengers, exclusive of the driver and is not an invalid carriage

No limit.

3. Locomotives and motor tractors:—

(1) Heavy locomotives—

(a) Within any city, town or village

3

(b) Elsewhere

5

(2) Light locomotives—

(a) When not drawing a trailer or not drawing more than two trailers,

340

Class of Vehicle.

Maximum Speed—Miles per hour.

if all the wheels both of the locomotive and of any trailer drawn by it are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

8

(b) In any other case

5

(3) Motor tractors—

(a) When not drawing a trailer if all the wheels of the tractor are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

16

(b) When drawing a trailer, if all the wheels both of the tractor and of any trailer drawn by it are fitted with soft or elastic tyres

8

(c) In any other case

5

Amendment moved—
Leave out the First Schedule and insert the said new Schedule.—(Earl Russell.)
LORD SWAYTHLING: My Lords, the noble Earl on a former stage of the Bill mentioned the question of invalid carriages, and said that it was not one of very great importance. Under this Schedule the speed of invalid carriages is increased from sixteen to twenty miles an hour. These invalid carriages were refused compulsory third-party insurance, and when I moved an Amendment in Committee to include them, the noble Earl said he did not think much damage could be done by invalid carriages. But after the sitting of the House I was approached by a member of your Lordships' House who told me that that very day he had seen an invalid carriage careering along Oxford Street in and out of traffic at a rapid pace, and in his opinion it might have caused considerable damage. I hope, as this speed limit is increased, that the noble Earl will consider once more including these vehicles in the Part of the Bill concerning compulsory third-party insurance.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, if the noble Earl will bring any facts to our notice both as to the construction and possible speed of invalid carriages, and instances of any danger caused by them, we will consider the matter. When I said they were not an important class of vehicle I meant numerically. But if it is a fact that at this speed they will be dangerous, we shall be glad to reconsider it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Third Schedule [Traffic Areas]:
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the first two Amendments are designed to transfer the portion of Hertfordshire outside the Metropolitan Polio; district from the East Midland to the Eastern traffic area.
Amendments moved—
Page 79, leave out lines 41, 42, and 43.
Page 80, line 6, at end insert ("So much of the administrative county of Hertford as lies outside the Metropolitan Police district."—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: There is also a drafting Amendment here.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 6, after ("Orkney") insert ("Zetland").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule [Enactments Repealed]:
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to insert:—

"10 & 11 Vict. c. 89.

The Town Police clause Act, 1847.

The provisions of the Act with respect to hackney carriages so far as they relate of public service vehicles to which Part IV of this Act applies."

The noble Earl sail: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 33, at end insert the said words.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK had on the Paper an Amendment to move to insert—

"60 & 61 Vict. c.38.

The Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897.

In section 65 the words "and for preventing over-crowding in such conveyances."

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I understand that the noble Earl is prepared to accept this Amendment in a different form. Accordingly, instead of the words in the last column I propose to insert "Section 65 so far as it relates to public service vehicles to which Part IV of this Act applies."
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, if the noble Earl moves it in that form, we will accept it. It has to do with Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 30, at end insert:

"60& 61 Vict. c. 38.

The Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897.

Section 65 so far as it relates to public service vehicles to which Part IV of this Act applies."—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past six o'clock.