Sitting of 1 April 1930

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Wakefield Corporation Bill [Lords].
Selsey Water Bill [Lords].
Bills to be read a Second time.
Borough Market (Southwark) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  SCOTLAND.

    HOUSING.
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the latest available figures with reference to the operation of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926: how many houses have been finished to the last convenient date; what progress is being made in the work on further dwellings; and what action has been taken by his Department to encourage local authorities in the fullest use of their powers under the Act for the purpose of reconditioning old houses in agricultural districts?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on the 18th February to the right hon.
    1044
    Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) which contains the latest available information on this subject. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the circular referred to in that answer.
    Mr. DAY: Can the Under-Secretary say whether he has had any further replies from the councils in regard to the correspondence?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: No, Sir, we do not propose to issue any circular until after the 15th May.
    Mr. TRAINasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the local authorities in Scotland have adopted the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act; and the number of houses built in Scotland under this Act up to date?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The Small Dwellings Acquisition (Scotland) Acts are not adoptive. They are enabling Acts whose provisions may be put into operation by local authorities without adoption. The information asked for in the last part of the question is not available, but as at 28th February last local authorities in Scotland had granted loans under the Acts to the amount of £1,449,179.
    Mr. TRAIN: Is the hon. Member doing anything to encourage local authorities to go on with the building of houses under the Act?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The Act does not only deal with new houses, but enables local authorities to purchase existing houses, and, as far as I am aware, all local authorities in Scotland are very well aware of their powers under the Act.
    Mr. TRAINasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of county council houses that are let in the Upper, Middle and Lower Wards of Lanarkshire, respectively; and the amount of arrears of rent in each ward at the latest date available?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: I am informed that as at the 26th March, 1930, the number of county council houses that were let in the Upper, Middle and Lower Wards of Lanarkshire were 1,263, 7,625 and 1,180 respectively, and that as at the same date the respective amounts of arrears

    1045
    in those wards were £6,192, £6,973 and £268. These amounts include arrears of occupiers' rates which are collected along with rents.
    Mr. TRAIN: Is the Under-Secretary satisfied that local authorities are doing all that is possible to collect these rents?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Yes, Sir, as far as we are aware; but if the hon. Member has any information to the contrary, we shall be glad to have it.
    Miss LEE: Are any steps being contemplated for the reduction of these rents in order to bring them more within the means of the people who inhabit these houses?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Except for the Addison scheme houses, the fixation of rents is entirely a matter for local authorities. We have no power to deal with it.
    Major COLVILLEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the average cost of houses built by local authorities in Scotland during the last three years, giving, separately, the cost by contract and by direct labour?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The average cost is not available, but the average tender price of houses built under contract by local authorities in Scotland during the last three years was: in 1927 £375, in 1928 £344 and in 1929 £312. The average cost of houses built under direct labour by local authorities in 1927 was £306. No houses were built under direct labour by local authorities in 1928 and 1929.
    Mr. JAMES STEWART: Will the Under-Secretary state where these reductions in the cost of houses took place as compared with the other matters of erecting houses?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: There were two places in Scotland where direct labour was introduced. One was Lochgelly, and the other Glasgow. In the case of Lochgelly, the estimated cost of the house was £340, and it was actually completed at a cost of £287. In Glasgow, the estimated cost was £390, and the actual cost £364.
    Major COLVILLE: Am I to understand that no houses at all were built by direct labour in Scotland after 1927?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: That is so.
    Major COLVILLE: For what reason?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The composition of some of the city councils was the major reason.

    SLATE QUARRIES.
    Mr. McKINLAY: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the annual output of slates from the quarries of Scotland; the proportion which this output bears to the total requirements of the house-building industry in Scotland; and whether the home production could be increased to meet the total Scottish demand?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: The estimated annual output of slates from the quarries of Scotland is 5,900,000. This represents about 16 per cent. of the total annual requirements of the house building industry in Scotland. As to the last part of the question, there is no statistical data from which an answer could be drawn, but I have no doubt that home production could be substantially increased.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: What is the hon. Member doing to encourage home production in this case?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: One thing we have done is to send a circular to every local authority in Scotland recommending them to use Scottish slate.
    Major ROSS: Are not Irish slates much better?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: No, Sir.
    Major ROSS: Will the Under-Secretary make further inquiries on that matter?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: We have already made inquiries.

    AGRICULTURE.
    Major COLVILLEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing dissatisfaction amongst agriculturists in Scotland at the failure of the Government to take steps to assist that industry; and what action he proposes to take?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): No, Sir. Agriculturists in Scotland appreciate the steps which the Govern-

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    ment has already taken to assist the industry, and realises that the Government must have reasonable time in which to deal with other disabilities under which various branches of the industry suffer.
    Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND: What are the steps to which the right hon. Member refers which Scottish agriculturists appreciate?
    Mr. ADAMSON: I have on more than one occasion given a full list in answer to questions in this House.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Will the right hon. Gentleman be kind enough to tell us, or else refer us to the answer in which the full list is given?
    Major COLVILLE: Is the list being translated into any practical action?
    Miss LEE: Is not the Lanarkshire experiment of giving a milk supply to children not directly helpful to the agricultural industry and will the Ministry do their very best to extend this as much as possible?
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Arising out of the original reply, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman does not consider that 10 months is a pretty reasonable time to wait for some statement of agricultural policy; and when he will be in a position to make a general statement of the agricultural policy of the Government as it applies to Scotland?
    Mr. ADAMSON: In reply to the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby), I might remind him of this, that 10 months is not as long a period of time as four and a-half years, and that he and his party, even at the end of four and a-half years, has to be stimulated in their efforts by Lord Beaverbrook and Lord Rothermere.
    Commander Sir BOLTON EYRES MONSELL: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that nearly every two months the last Administration passed some Bill for the benefit of agriculture?
    Mr. ADAMSON: And I need only remind the right hon. and gallant Member of the result.
    Major ELLIOT rose—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order, order!
    Mr. DUNCAN MILLARasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Departmental Committee on Agricultural Co-operation in Scotland have completed their inquiry, awl when their Report will be issued; and when the Report of the Department Agriculture for Scotland for the past year will be issued?
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: The Committee on Agricultural Co-operation have completed their inquiry and hope to submit their Report this week. The Report will be published without delay. As regards the second part of the hon. and learned Member's question, I hope that the Department's Report will be available within two or three weeks.
    Mr. MILLARasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of unemployed agricultural workers in Scotland and the number in the county of Fife, so far as the figures are ascertainable from Poor Law and other local records; and the number who have emigrated during the past 12 months or who have joined the Colours?
    Mr. ADAMSON: As regards the first part of the question, I regret that the information desired is not available. According to statistics compiled by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, the number of male agricultural workers who emigrated from Scotland in 1929 was 2,183. Particulars as to the number who joined the Colours are not available.
    Mr. MILLAR: May I ask whether it is not possible to ascertain the number of unemployed agricultural workers who are in our towns at present from information which is easily obtainable, and whether the right hon. Gentleman will verify the statement made in regard to the number of those who have recently joined the Colours? Can the right hon. Gentleman not apply the proper quarter and get the information?
    Mr. ADAMSON: From 350 to 400 men were registered at the Employment Exchanges in Scotland as unemployed agricultural workers, of whom 30 were in Fife. These figures cannot be regarded as giving any reliable guide to the extent of unemployment. The total recruitment for the Army, as finally approved by the Scottish Command, for the year ending 30th September, 1929, was 3,087 men.

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    These were not necessarily all Scottish; and there is no reliable information as to how many of the men were engaged in the agricultural industry.
    Mr. SKELTON: In view of the continued drain of rural population from Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman seriously undertake a scheme of land settlement?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the question.
    Mr. PALMER: Has the right hon. Gentleman found that unemployment among agricultural workers has facilitated recruitment in the Army?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is another question.

    EDINBURGH TOWN COUNCIL (PRESS REPORTS).
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the decision of the Edinburgh Town Council to exclude the Press from meetings of the committees of the council which will shortly take the place of the education authority and parish council, whose regular meetings have hitherto been open to the public and reported in the Press; whether such exclusion has his approval; and whether he will take steps to secure to the ratepayers the public reporting of the doings of their elected representatives?
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: I am aware that the Edinburgh Corporation have resolved that representatives of the Press should not be admitted to meetings of their committees. I am considering whether a provision requiring the admission of the Press and public to meetings of committees should not be added to all the schemes of administration which have been submitted for my approval by local authorities.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is this some new development of the bureaucracy to keep out the Press; and are not the public entitled to know what is going on?
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Is it not a fact that all matters of policy will come before the full council with the Press representatives present?
    Mr. ADAMSON: The point is that these committees are dealing with functions which were formerly dealt with by independent authorities such as education authorities.
    Mr. BROWN: But, as a matter of fact, all questions of policy will come before the full council?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is it not the case that the Press used to get the information, or used to be represented at the meetings under the old system, and that under the new system, through some sort of oversight, power has been given to exclude them?

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    COAL-CARRYING STEAMERS (CANADA).
    Mr. DOUGLAS HACKINGasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can now make a statement regarding the progress which is being made in the construction of the five 7,000-ton steamers which were being negotiated in November last year to carry coal this year from Great Britain to Canada?
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. J. H. Thomas): As the right hon. Member is no doubt aware, there has been during recent months a continued fall in freight rates, accompanied by a substantial increase in the volume of tonnage laid up both in this and in other countries. I am informed that the interests concerned have decided that in these changed conditions it would be unwise to proceed, at present with the negotiations which they had entered into for the construction of the steamers, to which the right hon. Member refers.
    Mr. HACKING: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that, when he first told us about these five steamers of 7,000 tons each, to carry coal from this country to Canada, he said that he could well leave the coal situation at that; and are those still his views?
    Mr. THOMAS: Yes, Sir; and, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman has put that supplementary question, he will know that in the letter which I sent to him, giving the details, I explained these circumstances. I could well press those who informed me that they would build the ships to comply with their bargain, but when there are 300,000 tons of shipping

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    at this moment idle, I feel that I would not be justified in forcing them.
    Mr. HACKING: Did the right hon. Gentleman receive a pledge that these ships would be constructed? I thought the right hon. Gentleman said that they were being negotiated.
    Mr. THOMAS: I received a pledge myself that they would be, and I also showed the right hon. Gentleman a copy of the contracts; but I would not press any owner into a bargain when there has been a change of circumstances which would not make it a profitable proposition.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been no appreciable alteration in the freight market during the last five or six months; and is he also aware that a ship-owner, having the slightest knowledge of his business, would never dream of building a 7,000 tonner dead weight, because it is absolutely uneconomic?
    Mr. THOMAS: That may be Lloyds' opinion, but it is not—
    Sir F. HALL: It is the opinion of the ship-owners—of the people who know anything about it.

    LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Lord Privy Seal the number of men at present employed on schemes of work sanctioned by the Unemployment Grants Committee for the relief of unemployment in Liverpool?
    Mr. THOMAS: There are at present 479 men directly employed on schemes of work in Liverpool approved for grant by the Unemployment Grants Committee. I am informed that 10 approved schemes have not yet started but will be commenced at an early date, and four schemes have been completed or are in abeyance.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Lord Privy Seal whether any further schemes have been submitted by the Liverpool City Council since 11th March for the relief of unemployment; and, in view of the number of unemployed in Liverpool, if he will urge upon the Liverpool City Council the necessity of their submitting further and larger schemes?
    Mr. THOMAS: Since the 11th March, 1930, the Liverpool City Council have submitted three further schemes estimated to cost £80,787 to the Unemployment Grants Committee for grants towards works for the relief of unemployment. In addition two further road schemes estimated to cost about £18,000 have been submitted to the Ministry of Transport. I trust that the city council are fully aware of the desire of His Majesty's Government that local authorities should take the utmost advantage of the facilities offered by way of grant for assisting to relieve unemployment.
    Mr. HALL-CAINE: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Liverpool City Council are giving him all the assistance which they might give, in view of the unemployment in Liverpool, and also in view of the fact that Liverpool is one of the wealthiest and one of the lowest-rated of the large cities in the country?
    Earl WINTERTON: On a point of Order. Has it not constantly been held that this House has no control over what a municipality does, and that whether the Liverpool City Council is or is not helping the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal, is a matter for that council and not for this House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is a rather delicate question. These are very big schemes which are being considered by the Lord Privy Seal, and it is very difficult to lay down a hard-and-fast rule.

    WORK SCHEMES.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Lord Privy Seal which town in Great Britain has submitted the largest schemes for the relief of unemployment, and the amount and the number of men employed on those schemes?
    Mr. THOMAS: I am making inquiries and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Could not this be made known so as to stimulate a little healthy emulation?
    Mr. THOMAS: It is very difficult to determine what is the largest scheme. A scheme may be very important and may provide considerable employment in one area, which, as regards rateable valuation, and debt and so on, would be

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    nothing proportionately when compared with another area, so that the mere money involved is not always the best test.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is it not the case that the population and the size of the town are other items to be taken into consideration in this matter?
    Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, seeing that he has sanctioned work schemes amounting to £50,000,000, and of this sum only £5,000,000 worth of work is under way, he proposes to take any steps to accelerate putting work in hand; and, if so, what is their nature?
    Mr. THOMAS: The estimated cost of the schemes approved to the end of March under the Development Act, the Colonial Development Act and the road programme is over £70,000,000. I am doing all that is humanly possible to speed up these schemes.
    Captain MACDONALD: Is it not a fact that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and his colleagues have some definite views as to how this should be speeded up?
    Major NATHANasked the Lord Privy Seal the number by which he estimates that the unemployed will be reduced at 30th June, 30th September, and 31st December, 1930, respectively, by reason of the works approved in connection with unemployment as set out in the recent White Paper, Cmd. 3529?
    Mr. THOMAS: Apart from the inherent difficulty of framing any estimate, due to the large proportion of indirect employment involved, it would be misleading the House to attempt to give any figure having regard to the inevitable difficulties encountered both in Parliament and outside in bringing schemes into operation.
    Major NATHAN: In view of the fact that the White Paper which I hold in my hand is entitled, "Statement of Works approved for Government financial assistance in connection with unemployment," is the right hon. Gentleman unable to relate the financial assistance to unemployment?
    Mr. THOMAS: The question has no bearing upon the financial assistance. The question put by the hon. and gallant
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    Gentleman is as to the number. The difficulty of answering that question is that included in that White Paper is a scheme for £3,000,000 which a Committee upstairs has just rejected. Included in it also are a number of other schemes which are still before Committees upstairs, and it is not for me to give a figure until I know exactly what the Committees will agree to.
    Major NATHAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman unable to give the House any guidance as to the extent to which unemployment is expected to be reduced by reason of these proposals?
    Mr. THOMAS: Yes, if the hon. and gallant Member or anyone else in the House will take the responsibility of assuring me what different Committees of the House of Commons may do with the schemes.

    CANADIAN WHEAT AND BRITISH PRODUCTS (EXCHANGE).
    Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has bad any communication from the president of the Canadian wheat pool, with whom he recently discussed proposals relating to reciprocal trade between Canada and Great Britain, concerning the proposal that vessels carrying grain from Canada might secure return cargoes of British coal?
    Mr. THOMAS: No, Sir. I have nothing to add to my statement of 25th February.
    Sir K. WOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman publicly stated that, as far as his interests are concerned, the whole matter has been dropped?
    Mr. THOMAS: I do not know what gentleman the right hon. Gentleman refers to, but, if the right hon. Gentleman will look up the facts, he will see that when I was negotiating with the wheat pool wheat was then 1 dollar 47 cents, and I advised them to sell them so that I could get the coal out, but they did not take my advice, and wheat now stands at 1 dollar 3 cents.
    Earl WINTERTON: In view of the great interest which is taken both in Canada and in this country in the negotiations which the right hon. Gentleman

    1055
    had with these important Canadian interests, will he consider publishing, either now or at some future date, a White Paper explaining exactly what he did advise these Canadian business men to do? May we not have a history of the negotiations?
    Mr. THOMAS: If the Noble Lord is speaking with authority for those in Canada, I am quite prepared to consider that matter, but I may say that at their request I gave a statement—first to the House—which was an agreed statement, and I have no evidence that would warrant me in believing that they desire anything else to be said.

    RENFREW.
    Dr. FORGANasked the Lord Privy Seal what is the estimated total capital cost of schemes for the relief of unemployment submitted by the county council of Renfrew and approved by the appropriate authorities up to the 20th March of this year?
    Mr. THOMAS: During the period 1st June, 1929, to 20th March, 1930, four schemes submitted by the Renfrew County Council estimated to cost £36,440 have been approved for grant by the Unemployment Grants Committee.

    TAMAR BRIDGE SCHEME.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Lord Privy Seal what progress has been made regarding the proposed scheme to construct a bridge over the Tamar?
    Mr. THOMAS: An engineer has been appointed to prepare a preliminary report on this proposal, and he is pursuing his investigations.

    WASH (MOTOR-BOAT SPEEDWAY).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the apprehension amongst the fishermen of the Wash at the proposal to build a speedway for motor-boats for that part of the Wash where they earn their living; that at the Board of Trade inquiry into this matter on the 8th February at Boston the fishermen were not represented; whether he has had communications from Messrs. Pearlman and Rosen, solicitors,
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    of Hull, who are instructed by the fishermen, drawing his attention to the matter; why no communication beyond an acknowledgment of the first letter was sent to this firm for some considerable time; and whether he will have this matter reopened?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): No decision will be reached in regard to this proposal until it has been more precisely defined. Any representations from local fishermen, who, I am infirmed, were represented at the Board of Trade inquiry of 8th January, will be carefully considered. Messrs. Pearlman and Rosen have been informed to this effect and that an earlier reply to their letter was not sent to them owing to the necessity of consulting the Ministry ct Agriculture and Fisheries.
    Mr. PALMER: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea of the extent of this opposition from fishermen, and is he aware of how many authorities are supporting the scheme?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    LINEN GOODS (IMPORTS).
    Mr. ALLENasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the amount of linen goods imported from Belgium into the United Kingdom during the last 12 months and seeing that the wages paid in the Belgium linen industry are substantially below the wages paid for the same categories of work in this country, he proposes to take steps to safeguard the employment of British workers in this industry from the competition resulting from the low standard of wages maintained by Belgian manufacturers?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I have nothing to add to the statements that have repeatedly been made concerning the policy of the Government in regard to protective duties.
    Mr. ALLEN: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's efforts have been directed to stabilising import restrictions?
    Major ROSS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the difficulties in the way of honest and ingenuous buyers like the chairman of the Kitchen Committee getting Irish linen?

    WEST INDIES.
    Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLEasked the President of the Board of Trade the amount of coal and the value of machinery shipped from this country to the West Indies last year, and the amount of homeward cargoes of sugar?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

    The following TABLE shows the total quantity and declared value of Coal, Coke, Manufactured Fuel and Machinery exported from the United Kingdom and registered as consigned to the British West Indies during the year 1929.

    Description.

    Exports (U.K. Produce and Manufactures) consigned to

    British West India Islands.

    British Honduras.

    British Guiana.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Tons.

    £

    Tons.

    £

    Tons.

    £

    Coal

    46,139

    42,285

    520

    947

    3,685

    3,220

    Coke

    96

    181

    —

    —

    52

    111

    Manufactured Fuel …

    3,050

    3,203

    —

    —

    3,045

    3,177

    Machinery and parts thereof

    2,789

    250,491

    75

    7,074

    572

    47,559

    NOTE.—The exports of imported machinery during 1929 were as follows:—Consigned to British West India Islands 1 ton, valued at £932, to British Honduras less than ½ ton, valued at £30, and to British Guiana less than ½ ton, valued at £261.

    The following TABLE shows the total quantity and declared value of Sugar imported into the United Kingdom and registered as consigned from the British West Indies during the year 1929.

    —

    Total Imports into United Kingdom consigned from

    British West India Islands.

    British Guiana.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    Cwts.

    £

    Cwts.

    £

    Sugar:

    Refined

    42

    46

    25

    35

    Unrefined

    1,326,474

    960,674

    511,885

    359,954

    NOTE.—No imports of Sugar into the United Kingdom were registered as consigned from British Honduras during 1929.

    The figures given in each of the above tables are provisional.

    TARIFF TRUCE.
    Sir K. WOODasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he proposes to seek the approval of the House for the protocol recently signed by him in relation to a tariff truce?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I would refer the right hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 23rd December last to the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be wise to preserve and encourage this shipping trade and employment at home by taking energetic steps to preserve the West Indian sugar industry?
    Following are the figures:
    (Commander Bellairs) in which I stated that any international convention which might be signed on this subject would be laid before Parliament before ratification.
    Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask what exactly the right hon. Gentleman means to convey by the phrase "laid before Parliament."? Will the Government put down a Motion for its

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    approval, or will they be content to leave it to us to put down a Motion for its disapproval?
    Mr. GRAHAM: As I understand it at the present, these documents will be submitted very soon. They are now at the printers, and I think that it will be for hon. Members opposite or in any part of the House to raise the matter.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that, when we had some discussion in connection with this subject a little time ago, he apologised for being unable fully to express the mind of the Government, because the Conference was then still in progress? Does he not think that it is his duty to bring the matter again substantively before the House now that these negotiations are complete?
    Mr. GRAHAM: No, I did not undertake to do that. I promised to submit documents at the earliest possible moment, and that will be done, but, as a matter of fact, either on the Board of Trade Vote, or on the Motion for the Adjournment, or on some other occasion, hon. Members may raise the question, so that their rights are fully protected.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: We shall ask for an occasion to discuss the matter on its merits, when we can move a Motion in regard to it.
    Sir ASSHETON POWNALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman by "Parliament" mean both Houses of Parliament?
    Sir A. POWNALLasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of the customs duties of each of the countries which have signed the Tariff Truce agreement is consolidated by treaty?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Of the total imports of all the signatories who under the terms of the Convention are required to maintain in force rates consolidated by Treaty the following figures indicate approximately the proportions which in each case represent goods on which the duties are fixed by one or more Treaties at present in force:
    Austria, 58 per cent.; Belgium and Luxembourg, 15 per cent.; Estonia, 11 per cent.; Finland, 13 per cent.;
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    France, 36½ per cent.; Germany, 46 per cent.; Italy, 40 per cent.; and Switzerland, 55½ per cent.
    The remaining signatories—Netherlands and the United Kingdom—are regarded for the purpose of the Convention as parties who do not consolidate their customs duties by treaty or do so only in exceptional cases.
    Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade with reference to the Tariff Truce Conference recently held at Geneva, if it fulfilled expectations; if he will state the benefits to accrue to this country as a result of the Conference; and were conclusions arrived at subject to any special reservations in respect of any country or countries in respect of permission given them to alter their tariffs whilst the Tariff Truce is operative?
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the nature of the agreements arrived at by the Tariff Truce Conference at Geneva and their effect on freedom of fiscal action by Great Britain?
    Mr. GRAHAM: It is obviously impossible to give adequate information in regard to a Convention of this kind within the limits of an answer to a Parliamentary question. I would therefore ask hon. Members to await the text of the instruments, which have already been sent to the printers. I may perhaps add that although the results of the Conference were not all that I had hoped, they represent, in my opinion, a definite step towards the lowering of trade barriers.
    Mr. GIBSON: In view of the fact that the Tariff Truce, if it meant anything at all, meant that there should be no increase of tariffs by any of the countries participating in the Conference during the operation of the Truce, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that one or more countries were granted preferential treatment in regard to being enabled to increase their tariffs under certain conditions?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Oh, yes. The text of the documents, which will be available to the House in a day or two, will indicate that in one or two cases exceptions were made, but those exceptions are fully explained in the papers.
    Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Are we to understand that this first step towards the reduction of tariffs consists of raising certain tariffs and the stabilisation of others?
    Mr. GRAHAM: My right hon. Friend would be in grave error if he made an assumption of that kind.
    Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE - LISTER: Will the right hon. Gentleman say which tariffs have been reduced as the result of his activities?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The Conference concluded only a few days ago, and my right hon. Friend had better allow a little time to elapse.
    Sir N. GRATTAN - DOYLE: With reference to the reply to question number 32, is the right hon. Gentleman not now convinced that all his efforts in this direction have been perfectly futile?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I am not convinced of that at all. On the contrary, I am very greatly encouraged.

    IMPORT AND EXPORT RESTRICTIONS (ABOLITION).
    Mr. ALLENasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the management committee of the Amalgamated Society of Woodworkers, Belfast district, to the effect that, after 1st February, 1930, none of the members of the organisation shall handle foreign-manufactured doors on any jab; and, seeing that this resolution constitutes a restriction on trade in articles imported from abroad, contrary to the terms of the convention for the abolition of import and export prohibitions and restrictions, and in view of this indication of the attitude of sections of organised labour towards foreign imports, if His Majesty's Government propose to signify to the other signatory Powers their inability to adhere to this convention?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I have not seen this resolution, but I would point out that the refusal of a particular trade organisation to handle foreign goods does not conflict with the provisions of the convention which is already binding on His Majesty's Government and relates only to restrictions on importation or exportation imposed by Government action.

    RUSSIA.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the estimated existing trade balance in this country of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, having regard to the balance of imports from Russia to Great Britain over exports from Great Britain to Russia during the past five years?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: During the five years 1925 to 1929, the values of the merchandise bullion and specie exported from the United Kingdom and registered as consigned to the Soviet Union (Russia) and of that imported into the United Kingdom and registered as consigned from the Soviet Union, have amounted to the following totals:

    £

    Imports from the Soviet Union

    …

    …

    …

    129,630,000

    Exports (including Re-exports) to the Soviet Union

    …

    …

    …

    60,650,489

    I am not in a position to state what sums may have been expended in the purchase in this country of goods for despatch direct from overseas countries to the Soviet Union.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is it not a fact that there is a very substantial trade balance in favour of Russia in this country, and, under these circumstances, why is it necessary for the British Government to guarantee export credits?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The position regarding the trade balance is probably true, but at this stage I must not anticipate the Debate which will take place very soon in this House on the whole question of export credits.
    Mr. R. A. TAYLOR: Do those figures include the payment for British ships and insurance charges, and the expenditure of the trade organisation in this country?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That should be put as a separate question.

    YORKSHIRE WOOLLEN AND WORSTED INDUSTRIES.
    Mr. WISEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government is prepared to take any steps having in view the reorganisation of the Yorkshire woollen and worsted industries, particularly in regard to the purchase of

    1063
    its raw material and the better and cheaper selling of its finished products, in order to avoid the threatened reduction of wages and to assist a revival of trade?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I trust that the industry will adopt the suggestion in paragraph 62 of Lord Macmillan s Report that passible sources of economy of the kind that my hon. Friend has in mind should be examined further. As my hon. Friend is aware, the good offices of the Government are at all times available to the industry.
    Mr. WISE: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to set up a committee of inquiry as in the case of the cotton, iron and steel industries, and would direct proposals from the trade as to its reorganisation be considered?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I could not to-day promise any committee of inquiry. I can only say that the Report is before us, and beyond that I cannot go.
    Several HON. MEMBERS rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We are taking an extra long time over questions owing to the number of supplementaries, and we are getting on very slowly.

    BRITISH COMPANIES (FOREIGN SHAREHOLDERS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to recent attempts to deprive foreign shareholders in British companies of the rights of directorial representation and management that properly belong to them; and whether he will consider amending the company laws to prevent this?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: My attention has been called to this question, but, as at present advised, I do not see any reason to intervene.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does my right hon. Friend know that in this case, not only are the foreign shareholders being put in a disadvantageous position, but that in this action British shareholders are being deprived of their rights; and will he have this matter looked into from the legal point of view, with the object, if necessary, of amending the principal Act?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I have innumerable matters arising out of the Companies Acts before me, but, as I have told the House, I cannot promise an extension of legislation in that field at the present moment. I can only say that I will keep these matters constantly before me.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these changes made by British companies are discouraging Americans from putting money into this country just when we need cheap capital?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I know that there is a great deal of controversy both ways, but there are various steps that can be taken by companies themselves as regards the rights of various parties of shareholders, and I am afraid that, beyond watching it, I cannot promise legislation.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to let it be known to these companies that this is not in the interests of British industry?

    COMPANIES ACTS.
    Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will set up an investigation for the purpose of satisfying himself that the departments of registrar and solicitor to the Board of Trade are organised in such a way as to be able to deal promptly and efficiently with the failure of companies to file annual accounts and balance sheets for the year 1929 within the period required by the Act of Parliament; and, if they are efficiently organised, how comes it about that there are even now 1,500 companies still in default in their statutory obligations?
    Sir HERBERT NIELDasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he now proposes to take to enforce the law with regard to the balance of 1,500 out of the 2,600 companies which failed to lodge their accounts and balance sheets for the year 1929 in accordance with the requirements of the Act of Parliament?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is not possible till the end of January to compile a complete list of companies which have failed

    1065
    to file returns for the preceding year. When the list is complete the organisation is able to deal with it satisfactorily according to the procedure which I outlined in my reply to the hon. Member for Hereford on the 4th February. I may say that the number of public companies which have filed no return in respect of 1929 is now less than 1,000 (excluding companies in liquidation or in regard to which steps are being taken for their dissolution). In addition there are approximately 400 cases in which there is an incomplete return which is the subject of correspondence.

    MERCANTILE MARINE (HEALTH CONDITIONS).
    Mr. THOMAS LEWISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state what progress has been made by the committee set up to consider and advise on any questions affecting the health of the mercantile marine; whether he can give the statistics relating to the mortality of seamen and the hygiene of crew spaces on board ship into which the committee has been conducting an investigation since last July; and if he can state when the committee will be able to make a report?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As the answer is long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The work of the committee is progressing, but I cannot say when the Departments will receive the committee's views on the two subjects mentioned by my hon. Friend. The existing statistics relative to the mortality of seamen are available in the annual returns of shipping casualties to and deaths on vessels registered in the United Kingdom and in Part II of the Registrar-General's Decennial Supplement dealing with occupational mortality. What the committee has in hand is a detailed investigation into the question of how far and in what way those statistics can be improved. The only satisfactory method of conducting such an inquiry is in connection with current cases and the committee are inquiring into the deaths reported month by month from October last probably
    1066
    until September next. No report can therefore be expected for some months. Work on the hygiene of crew spaces on board ship is well advanced, and discussions with those concerned are proceeding.

    GERMAN WHEAT (IMPORTS).
    Mr. ROSBOTHAMasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state for the period September, 1929, to February, 1930, the quantity of German wheat imported into this country as compared with the corresponding period of the preceding year?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: During the six months ended 28th February, 1930, the quantity of wheat imported into the United Kingdom that was registered as consigned from Germany was 493,234 cwts., as compared with 1,847,978 cwts. during the corresponding period a year earlier.

  SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT DUTIES.

    WRAPPING PAPER.
    Mr. G. GIBSONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has received a petition, voluntarily signed by every wage-earner of a West Riding firm of wrapping paper manufacturers, at the request of the trade union secretary of the employés, asking that the present import duty on wrapping papers be retained, owing to the fact that, since the imposition of the duty, the firm has enjoyed more continuous employment than formerly; and what answer he has returned thereto?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I have not received any such petition.
    Mr. GIBSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept my apology for putting down this question in view of the fact that it was only yesterday that I heard that the trade union officials had held back this petition to await others of a similar character from other factories?
    Major McKENZIE WOOD: May I ask—
    Mr. SPEAKER: An opportunity must be given for the Minister to learn what the petition is.

    LACE INDUSTRY (UNITED STATES TARIFF).
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the increased duties which will be imposed on lace and lace net by the new tariff proposals of the United States of America; and whether, in view of the damage this will do to our trade, he has made any representations on the subject?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I have received information from unofficial sources that certain proposals for an increase of the United States import duties on lace and lace net have been adopted by the Senate. I understand that some American interests are taking steps to endeavour to counter these proposals. I fear that no useful purpose would be served by representations by His Majesty's Government to the United States Government.
    Sir HENRY BETTERTON: In view of the very serious situation disclosed by the right hon. Gentleman's answer, will he make representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to review his policy with regard to the lapse of the Safeguarding Duties?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I can only say that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is familiar with every aspect of this controversy.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the duties have been increased in some cases by 40 or 50 per cent. and in some cases the duties amount to as much as 140 per cent. ad valorem, and will he not reconsider whether it is possible to take some steps to help our trade?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I do not dispute that these increases, so far as I have seen them, are heavy, and I will give further consideration to this matter, but I am afraid I must repeat that I could not promise to make representations to the Government of the United States.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Has not an entirely new situation arisen, the result of which must be that those French goods which have hitherto gone to the United States will now come in increasing quantities to this market?

    SILK INDUSTRY.
    Major NATHANasked the President of the Board of Trade to what cause he attributes the increase both in the number and percentage of unemployed in the silk and artificial silk industry during the period July, 1928, to June, 1929, as compared with the period July, 1924, to June, 1925?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: This industry has for some years been expanding rapidly, and during the last few years there have been signs that production has, at times, tended to advance more rapidly than consumption. It is possible that during the later period referred to some new firms began operations while at the same time other firms were restricting production. As the industry is carried on in many parts of the country, this may have resulted in an increase in the number of unemployed persons occurring at the same time as an increase in the total number of persons in the industry and of the volume of production.
    Mr. REMER: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the very large increase of employment in this industry, and is he aware of the fact that a very large number of people unemployed in other industries of the textile goods are now registering themselves as employed in the silk industry?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I believe the last part of the question, as regards registration, is near the mark. The earlier part of the reply points to the expansion which has taken place in the industry.
    Major NATHAN: Is it not the fact that between the dates given, the unemployed in the silk industry increased by upwards of 4,500, upwards of 3.3 per cent.?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Those figures are substantially correct, but the reply is intended to give the environment of the two percentages.
    Mr. REMER: Is it not a fact that over 20,000 more people are employed in the industry than before the duties were put on?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We are getting far away from the terms of the original question.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    BANDS (COPYRIGHT MUSIC).
    Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for War whether there is any existing arrangement between the War Office and the Performing Rights Society for the performance of copyright music by the bands of His Majesty's Army; and, if so, will he give particulars?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. T. Shaw): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and the second part, therefore, does not arise.
    Mr. DAY: Have any representations been made to the right hon. Gentleman, and why is it that the Territorial Force has to pay for those rights?
    Mr. SHAW: I have had no representations on that matter.

    WAR GRAVES COMMISSION.
    Sir JOHN FERGUSONasked the Secretary of State for War if he will give the new address at which the War Graves Commission is housed; and when he proposes to review the necessity for the Commission to maintain a staff of 183 persons as at 31st March?
    Mr. SHAW: The new address of the Imperial War Graves Commission is 3, Sanctuary Buildings, 20, Great Smith Street, Westminster. As regards the second part of the question, the Commission always have the numbers of their

    Officers' Training Crops.

    —

    Strength on 1st October.

    Commissions granted to Members and ex-Members.

    Percentage of Members who obtained Certificate A.

    Regular Army.

    Territorial Army.

    1927

    …

    …

    …

    37,667

    372

    619

    12·3

    1928

    …

    …

    …

    38,096

    397

    552

    13·5

    1929

    …

    …

    …

    39,033

    405

    551

    13·4

    CADET CORPS.
    Mr. OSWALD LEWISasked the Secretary of State for War whether, since he has been in office, he has received any deputation or any written communication from the Incorporated Association of Headmasters of Public Secondary Schools in England and Wales on the subject of cadet corps?
    staff under review, and they anticipate further progressive reductions during the current financial year.

    JAM CONTRACTS (CO-OPERATIVE WHOLESALE SOCIETY, LIMITED).
    Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary of State for War whether the Co-operative Wholesale Society have tendered for the supply of jam to the Army; and whether such tender has been accepted?
    Mr. SHAW: The Co-operative Wholesale Society, Limited, have not tendered for the supply of jam to the Army for many years. The society are, therefore, not now noted on the Department's list of firms to whom invitations to tender for jam are issued.

    OFFICERS' TRAINING CORPS.
    Mr. HOPKINasked the Secretary of State for War what was the number of members in the Officers' Training Corps (senior or junior) last year; what is the average percentage over the last three years of ex-members of the Officers' Training Corps who become officers in the, Regular or Territorial Army; and what percentage over the same period have taken Certificate A from the Officers' Training Corps?
    Mr. SHAW: I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing, the information for which he asks.
    Following is the table:
    Mr. SHAW: No, Sir.
    Mr. LEWIS: Seeing that the great majority of the headmasters of public secondary schools belong to this association, and if the right hon. Gentleman has had no communication with the association, how does he justify his leading the House to believe last week—[Interruption.]
    Mr. A. SOMERVILLEasked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the tenor of any communications he has received from associations representing masters in secondary schools regarding cadet corps in these schools?
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has received any representations from organisations representing teachers in elementary and secondary schools expressing hostility to cadet corps training on educational grounds; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of such representations and from what bodies they emanated?
    Mr. SHAW: As I stated in my speech on Army Estimates, I have received a deputation from the National Union of Teachers, and the representations which they made against continuing financial assistance to cadet corps were based on moral grounds.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that that body does not represent the schools in which there are secondary cadet corps?
    Mr. SHAW: I am aware that it is a very important body dealing with education. I listened to their representations, and made a full statement to the House, and the House decided that my attitude was justified.
    Sir LAMING WORTHINGTONEVANS: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention not been called to the statement issued by the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, which appeared in the "Times," and in which the headmasters of secondary schools in which these cadet corps exist deprecate the action of the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. SHAW: My attention has not been called to the statement in question.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Were the grounds which the right hon. Gentleman has just stated the only grounds on which the Government acted?
    Mr. SHAW: I stated the grounds in the discussion.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Now that I have called the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the statement to which I referred, will he give consideration to the representations that this body has made?
    Mr. SHAW: I will certainly read the statement that appeared in the "Times," but I cannot guarantee to give any reconsideration to the decision already taken.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Will the right hon. Gentleman, at least, continue the facilities to these corps during this season, so that these boys may not be deprived of their summer holiday?
    Mr. SHAW: That question will give me the opportunity of stating again, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, what I stated in the Debate, namely, that I should not attempt to interfere with things that have been entered into by people genuinely believing that they would get their grant. That will be carried out to the full, but, when they have had this year's grants, they are finished.
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I was not referring to grants, but to facilities for camping grounds, ordnance matters, and so on?
    Mr. SHAW: Where it was definitely understood that these facilities would be granted, the facilities will be granted.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: In view of the nature of the replies of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this question at the earliest convenient opportunity on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.

    LONDON NAVAL CONFERENCE (MEDITERRANEAN).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether he can assure the House that His Majesty's Government will not enter into any increase of liabilities or sanctions in the Mediterranean except in so far as any such liabilities or sanctions are shared by the American Government?
    Commander BELLAIRSasked the Prime Minister in view of the general undertaking of nations under the Kellogg Pact, whether the Government will give an assurance that they will not enter into any liabilities in the Mediterranean based on a breach of this undertaking?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Prime Minister whether the Government has any intention of entering into a Mediterranean pact; and if he is now in a position to make any statement?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): His Majesty's Government have no intention of entering into any commitments which go beyond the obligations resulting from the Covenant of the League of Nations and the Treaty of Locarno. I might perhaps take this opportunity of saying that the French Government do not ask, and have never asked, that His Majesty's Government should add to the burdens which already devolve upon them as the result of those instruments.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman will bear this answer in mind when the question of the re-casting of the Articles of the Covenant come forward?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Personally, I am not concerned with the re-casting of the Articles of the Covenant.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer imply that there is no difference between the French and the English on this matter of the Mediterranean Pact?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not know what the hon. Member has in mind, but I adhere to my answer.
    Mr. BRACKEN: Is it in order, Mr. Speaker, for Liberals to badger the Prime Minister while the Naval Conference is sitting?

    ELECTORAL REFORM.
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce and pass into law a measure of voting reform for application at the next General Election, with a view to securing the increased representation of minority groups?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given on the 13th March in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander).
    Captain MACDONALD: Is it not a fact that the conditions have changed since then, and is this one of the conditions of the support of the allies of the Government below the Gangway?

    FOODSTUFFS (BULK PURCHASE).
    Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to state the intentions of the Government respecting proposals for dealing with the bulk purchase of foodstuffs and the formation of an imports board to control those activities?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Noel Buxton): I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to a similar question by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture on the 27th March, to which I have nothing to add.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    RATING RELIEF.
    Mr. PERRYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the estimated cost to be borne by the State funds during the financial year 1930–31 under the derating scheme of 1929, and the estimated amount of relief to the coal industry, breweries and other industries, respectively?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): The cost to State funds in 1930–31 of the derating scheme and the associated local government reforms, after deducting the saving from discontinued grants, is estimated at £34 millions. Some estimates were given by the late Government of the relief to certain industries. I have no later information on which to frame revised estimates.

    PETROL DUTY.
    Mr. PERRYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the amount received up to date by the imposition of the Petrol Duty?
    Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The latest date up to which the information can be furnished is 28th February, 1930. The

    1075
    approximate total net amount received since the duty was imposed in April, 1928, up to that date was £26,612,000.

    INCOME TAX.
    Mr. ALLENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider extending the method of deductions of tax at source in the case of all foreign artists, composers, and writers deriving income from this country on the same principle as that adopted by the Government of the United States of America?
    Mr. P. SNOWDEN: If the hon. Member is referring to income derived from this country in the form of copyright royalties, I would remind him that tax is already deducted from such royalties in accordance with the provisions of Section 25 of the Finance Act, 1927.
    Mr. ALLEN: Is it not a fact that a large number of highly-paid foreign artists get away without paying?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not think that a very large number get away. That matter was raised about two years ago, and my predecessor gave the following reply:
    "I have given considerable thought to the matter to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. As I have previous stated, the great bulk of the Income Tax due from foreign artistes performing in this country is ultimately recovered, and I may add that steps recently taken to accelerate the working of the existing Income Tax machine in these cases will still further reduce the comparatively trifling amount of tax which is at present not collected. In these circumstances I do not think it is necessary to adopt my lion. and gallant Friend's proposal, which would involve considerable difficulties in practice."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1927; col. 1178, Vol. 211.]
    I have nothing to add to that reply.
    Mr. DAY: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer not aware that many artists, who come to this country from abroad receive very large salaries, and stay only for six or nine months of the year, and consequently pay no Income Tax?
    Sir F. HALLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the circular letter which has recently been sent out by the Inland Revenue authorities to a large number of firms demanding payment of arrears of Income Tax under Schedule D, and threatening serious
    1076
    action unless payment was made within seven days, was issued with his knowledge; to how many firms the letter was sent; and whether he is aware that certain firms to whom the circular was sent either were not indebted to the extent alleged or had in fact already discharged their Income Tax liabilities?
    Mr. P. SNOWDEN: It is the duty of collectors to act vigorously in the early months of the year in demanding payments of tax that fell due on the 1st January, and the steps which have been taken are neither more nor less than normal. If the hon. and gallant Member will give me particulars of any ease in which it is alleged that improper pressure is being exerted or excessive demands are being issued, I will cause inquiry to be made and will communicate the result to him in due course.
    Sir F. HALL: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the statement contained in the first part of this question is correct or not; and, if it is correct, was the notification given upon his instruction?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: The first part of the question asks whether demand notes have been issued requiring payment.
    Sir F. HALL: Threatening.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I have no information whatever in regard to threats, and I shall be obliged to the hon. and gallant Member if he has any such information if he will put the case before me. May I add that I really cannot understand why hon. Members opposite should show so much sympathy with people who do not pay their Income Tax. This tax was due on the 1st January, and it is a right and proper thing that an imperative demand should be made for its immediate payment.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Would the right hon. Gentleman address himself to the exact terms of the question upon the Paper, having regard to the fact that he has received due notice of the question?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I have addressed myself to the question, and I have repeated that I have no knowledge of any threatening letters having been sent out. I have said that the practice during the past three or four months has been perfectly normal, neither more nor less—exactly the practice which was carried out under

    1077
    the regime of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. May I repeat that, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will bring to my notice any particular case where there has been incivility or threats, I certainly will have it inquired into.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Did the right hon. Gentleman himself see the circular letter specifically referred to in the question?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Why should I go on repeating the same answer to the same question. I have already said that I have no knowledge of any such threatening letter having been sent out.

    MEN SERVANTS (TAX).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that an increasing number of men are entering domestic service in the place of female labour, he will reconsider his refusal to remit the man-servant tax, having regard to its effect on unemployment?
    Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 23rd January to the hon. and gallant Member for Howdenshire (Major Carver), to which I have nothing to add.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can give us to-day the answer which he foreshadowed to the question of my right hon. Friend yesterday, in relation to the commencement and duration of the Easter Recess?
The PRIME MINISTER: It is proposed to ask the House to meet at Eleven o'Clock on Thursday, the 17th April, and to rise not later than Five p.m. on that day for the Easter Recess. Unless any unforeseen and untoward circumstance arises, we propose to reassemble on Tuesday, the 29th April.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask the Prime Minister, for purposes of record and clarity, how far he proposes to go to-night?
The PRIME MINISTER: I hope that it will not be necessary to sit late. We are proposing the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule merely in order to
1078
ensure that we can definitely carry out the arrangement under which the Third Rending of the Coal Mines Bill will be disposed of not later than half-past Seven on Thursday.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Coal Mines Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  COAL MINES BILL.
  As amended, considered.
  CLAUSE 1.—(Schemes regulating production, supply and sale of coal.)
  Commodore DOUGLAS KING: I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, to leave out the word "production."
  The House will realise that we seek, by leaving out tins word "production," to move to leave out the whole question of quota and of restriction of output, both on a national basis and on the district basis. Hon. Members opposite have found difficulty, apparently, in understanding why we on this side of the House have raised such strong objections to the quota arrangements under this Bill, when we were quite willing to give a fair trial to the voluntary arrangements which have been worked in certain districts for a considerable period. We see, however, a very great difference between a voluntary regulation of output and a statutory restriction. Under the voluntary system it was absolutely free for any or all coalowners to join any voluntary scheme that was in existence in their district, or, if they disapproved of the way the scheme was being worked, they were perfectly free to drop it. That was not only far more satisfactory from their own point of view, but it was also a great safeguard to the public and to the consumer, because we can rest assured that if the scheme was not being properly managed, if output was being restricted to too great an extent, or if it were sought to raise prices too high, some keen business men among the coalowners would have decided to break away from the scheme, because they would be able to serve their interests, and those of the public far better without the imposed restriction.
  Under this Bill the Government are seeking to restrict output by Statute. It is directly interfering with the conduct of the business of the coalmining industry, and it is saying to the coal-owners that they must not produce more than a certain amount, of coal, no matter what their productive capacity may be, and, if they exceed the quota that is to be allotted to them, they are liable to
  1114
  various penalties. That limitation of Output is really a process of levelling down the better pits to the same level as the less efficient and less productive pits, because under this quota system, no matter how well a mine may be managed, no matter how much money has been spent on its development, all pits are to be placed on the same level.
  A certain standard tonnage is to be allotted to each pit. That gives a vested interest to the less economic pits, which are not in the ordinary way able to compete in hard times. They are given their percentage of production whether or no they are capable of properly carrying on their business. The quota is really a detriment to the more highly developed and more productive pits. One of the chief things that would happen under the restriction of output is the discouragement of the development of coal mines. The pits which will feel the quota system most of all are those in what we may call the new areas, the pits where large sums have been spent on development, and where the greatest potential output at present exists. Vast sums of money have been spent in sinking shafts and developing coal mines which could, if they were allowed, produce a far greater amount of coal than they are doing now. [Interruption]
  I know the hon. Member is presuming that a certain amount of latitude is given to newly-developed and developing pits, but, on the other hand he should realise that any increase for a pit has to come within the district quota or the national quota, and that no increase of tonnage can be given to a newly-developed pit unless some reduction is going to be made elsewhere. There is no elasticity, as far as I understand it, with regard to the national quota or the district quota, and, therefore, whatever is set as the production for the country or the district has to be equalled out as between the collieries in that district, and, therefore, it is discouraging development. Certainly pits are not likely, when they know their output is going to be restricted to a percentage, to spend more money in the development of pits.
  The restriction of output by quota also destroys competition. There is not the incentive for the pits to compete against each other either for the development of the pits or for the sake of their coal.

  1115
  There is no question that the national quota, in the first place, would be set with the idea of restricting the output to whatever the demand may be. The whole object of it is to avoid more coal being produced than can be sold. That, in itself, is going to destroy competition, because every coalowner will know that the coal that he is permitted to produce is bound to be wanted. He is not going to have his selling department thrusting round the country trying to obtain orders in competition with rival coalowners. There will be no need for that, because, whatever amount he is allowed to produce, he knows is going to be required sometime or other within that period and at a price which must not be below the minimum price.
  4.0 p.m.
  I will not go into the question of the fixing of the minimum price. I only wish to deal with the main criticisms with regard to restriction of output, because we had a very full Debate on it in Committee. One of the results of this reduction of output is going to be to destroy competition as between pits. I have always believed that competition is a wholesome thing for any industry, and without proper competition any industry is going to suffer and to deteriorate. That is with regard to restriction of output from the collieries themselves. But the Bill also restricts what I might call the user of coal. It says to certain people that, though they have coal at their disposal, they must not work it. I am referring now to those concerns which have been mentioned in previous Debates with regard to the iron and steel trade, carbonisation of coal, and so on, which have had the forethought to buy coal mines for the purpose of their own industry. They have found it cheaper and better for the economic working of the industry to buy a pit than to buy their coal month by month or year by year under contract. Now they are told, "Though you have your own pits, and can produce all the coal which you require for your own business, you must no longer do that. You will be given only a certain percentage of the output of that pit, no matter how mush you want." It does not matter if they have coal in the land; they will be told, "Beyond your quota you must not go, and you must
  1116
  leave your own coal in the land and go into the open market and buy what further coal you need." I maintain that that is a very unfair and harsh treatment of businesses which have had the foresight to make provision for their own needs. I will give an illustration. It is almost as bad as the case of a man who has hired an allotment to grow vegetables for his own family, and a Government inspector comes along and says, "I know that you can produce on that allotment all the produce you require for your family, but you must not produce more than three-quarters of what your actual needs are. The remaining quarter you must buy in the market. You must not utilise your own land. You must not grow all your own potatoes, but must go into the open market and buy at least a quarter of whatever you may require. And when you go into the market to buy, we will see to it that you do not buy what you require at less than the minimum price."
  That is not only the case with regard to the private user of coal. The same thing applies on a larger scale with regard to districts. There are districts such as Staffordshire and Lancashire where they could not only consume the whole of the output of coal from their particular districts, but even at the present time they are unable to supply the whole of their needs. Even now they have to obtain a certain amount of coal from other coalfields, but, in spite of the fact that the whole of their own output is required for use in their own districts, they are to be told, under this quota system, "You must not produce more than 75 or 80 per cent., Dr whatever it may be, that you have been using in your own district. You must not produce more than your quota, and the remaining quarter that you require you must go into the open market and buy at not less than the minimum price." I maintain that no Government could possibly devise a more vexatious, a more damaging or a more ludicrous system than that which is being set up under this Bill with regard to the regulation of the output of coal.
  Another point with regard to this quota provision is that it provides no incentive to concentration. Most people who have had anything to do with the coalmining industry have realised that

  1117
  one of the most desirable things is that the production of coal should be concentrated on those pits which are best able not only to provide the best quality of coal, but to provide it in the most economical way and at the lowest cost. There is certainly no inducement for that to happen under the Bill, because the only way that a really efficient and economical pit can produce its full quota is by buying somebody else's quota, and, therefore, it will add to its cost. We find, therefore, that unless the economic pit is willing to buy a quota, it cannot possibly concentrate on its production in that particular pit. Concentration, to my mind, would certainly reduce costs. If we could get concentration on the best pits, it would reduce costs, too, from the miners' point of view. I realise that it would probably reduce labour costs. Pits that can produce coal most cheaply are those which can produce coal with the least labour. We know full well that labour charges are the heaviest charges in connection with the coal mining industry, and, therefore, the cheapest coal produced really infers in most cases that there is less labour and probably more machinery being used.
  That may be so with regard to concentration, but what is the effect of the quota system as it has been worked and the examples we have before us? We know that in the Five or Seven Counties Scheme under the quota system there has been a tendency for a wider spread of short-time work. The tendency has been throughout for a spread of hours, the work being spread over the different pits, and there has been a very considerable increase in short-time work. I would submit that, even from the miners' point of view, it can be little consolation to them to know that their working hours are to be reduced by half-an-hour a day on such days as they work, when they know that the inevitable result of that under this Bill will be that they work fewer days per week. That, surely, is a very poor consolation for the miners when they realise what this Bill is going to do for them. Again, as has been suggested both by the Secretary for Mines and by the President of the Board of Trade, even if any of the effect of this Bill were to be to give an increase in wages, which I very much doubt, I submit that an increase in wages, if the wages are paid on fewer days a week, is of very little value to the
  1118
  miner himself. I found that in most parts the miner said that, low as his wages might be, it would not be so bad, providing that he was working the full number of shifts per week. What hits him so hard is when short-time is being worked, and there is not a sufficient number of shifts being worked in a pit to enable him to earn enough in the week.
  There is one other point only that I want to mention as to the effect of the quota system, and that is with regard to the increased cost. There, again, it is admitted that the most economical way of working coal is by working to the limits of production. The overhead costs are so spread that the cost of getting the coal is less. The reverse is equally true, and when production is reduced, we know that the overhead costs per ton of coal are going to be very considerably increased. It is obvious that the reduction of output will increase the cost of production, and therefore increase the cost of coal. It is not merely that this increase of cost has got to be added to the increase by shortening the hours. It is only one other additional burden which the consumer has got to pay, whether it be the foreign consumer or whether it he the consumer in this country, the only difference being that we have realised throughout the discussions on this Bill that the foreign consumer is not bound to buy our coal, and, therefore, it is not possible to put the full increase in the cost on to him. The home consumer, however, at the present time, has no alternative. He has to buy his coal in this country, but if the price of coal rises to the extent which we anticipate, there is no doubt whatever that the demand for coal in this country will be very considerably reduced. If this increase were to grow too high, we might even see foreign coal being imported, because there is a very narrow margin, I imagine, at the present time, between the prices at which it would pay to sell coal in this country, and the price at which we could actually import it from some of our present foreign competitors.
  I do not wish to go too deeply into the question of increase of cost to the consumer in this country, because that was very fully dealt with on the occasion of a similar Debate on the Committee stage. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)

  1119
  took part in that Debate, and spoke for over half an hour on the evils of this restriction of output, showing the heavy increase in cost which this limitation of output would produce. There is no necessity for me to repeat all his arguments. I would only like to read the words of the right hon. Gentleman at the conclusion of his speech on that occasion. He had been pointing out the responsibility which Members of the Committee would have to their constituents in accordance with the way they placed their votes on that occasion. He said:
  "We represent every industry in this country, and every hon. Member will have to answer the question how he came to vote for a proposal which has increased the cost of a commodity, essential to the very life of every industry in this country, and increased it not by curtailing the hours of labour but by introducing fantastic proposals for limiting the output of the commodity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1930; col. 2480. Vol. 235.]
  That is what the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs told us on the Committee stage of this Bill. Of course, we know that when he spoke those words he had not fully realised the importance of the Naval Conference, but, even with the Naval Conference behind him, I think he would find it extremely difficult to go down to his constituents and explain to them how he could consider that this particular restriction of output was so important on the Committee stage, that he would even risk turning out the Government, and did his best to defeat the Government on that particular point, and, then, as I can only presume, when we come to this Report stage, carry out the arrangement of abstaining or supporting the Government on such a proposal. I do not envy the right hon. Gentleman the task of explaining such an attitude to his constituents. I entirely agree with him that it is a matter of very great moment to every member in this House as to how he is going to vote on this particular Clause. It is a matter which is going to affect the whole industrial life, and, indeed, the domestic life of the whole of this country, and I do ask all Members to hesitate before they support a Measure which will inflict so much harm, not only to the industry itself, but to all other industries and to private consumers in this country.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Very briefly, I would like to reply to some of the arguments advanced by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. If I were to quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT the speech of the hon. Member who represents one of the Divisions of Sheffield, I think it would provide a reasonable answer to any of the arguments the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has put, but I should like to take one or two of the main points of the hon. Member's speech to indicate whether there is anything in the arguments which have been advanced. In the first place, with regard to the new coal mines in the Doncaster area, because I presume that was in his mind, in view of the enormous expenditure in sinking and developing new mines any restriction of output would restrict the sinking and development of new collieries. Surely the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Paddington (Commodore King) knows that new collieries are sunk with one of two objects in view. They are sunk because it is expected that the old pits are not going on for ever or because the world demand is going to continue to increase. Therefore, but for the known normal natural demand for an increase in the consumption of coal and the fact that old pits automatically, slowly but surely, go out of production, no new pits would be sunk.
  What has happened in the experience of the Seven or Five Counties Scheme? All the newer collieries which cost so much to sink and to develop have been able to produce to their utmost capacity, and in all the arrangements of the Five Counties Organisation Committee, instead of restricting development, the utmost elasticity has been introduced. All the collieries have the power of submitting any complaint to a body of arbitrators who sit and determine what is right and what is wrong in regard to any individual colliery. If the basis of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument were correct, the one part of the coal-mining area of this country which would be in sore distress would he that comprising the Five Counties area. In the restricting of output, and the regulating of the price and the sales, and in inducing whatever economies were possible, the one part of the coal-mining area of this country which would be charged a colossal price for coal and at the same

  1121
  time would be making tremendous losses would be the Five Counties area, namely, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Warwickshire, and the rest.
  If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had looked up the figures for 1929, he would have found that the one part of the coal-mining area, of Great Britain which had been making the best profits was the Five Counties area. In spite of facilities for the maximum output in Scotland, Northumberland, Durham, or South Wales, none of these collieries can compare with the results which have been obtained in the Five Counties area. Therefore, the basis of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument falls completely to the ground since a reduction in the cost per ton in Yorkshire and the whole of the Five Counties area has gone down faster than the cost of production has gone down in other areas where there is no restriction and where internal competition continues to exist.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman quoted the case of the smallholder or the allotment holder who might make a restriction of his output of cabbages or potatoes. If he will apply his arguments when he goes back to the agricultural part of his Parliamentary constituency, he will find that the farmers will be following up his suggestion. I do not suppose that there will be many allotments or small holdings in the Parliamentary constituency of Paddington, but if the right hon. and gallant Member enters any one of the rural constituencies and gives the germ of the idea to the farmers of the country he will find that they will be pressing him and his party for a scheme almost on the lines of the scheme of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. After all, the basis of his argument was that they have a successful scheme without having a scheme on the lines indicated in this Bill, whereas in point of fact from every agricultural platform in the country they are demanding that either this or some other Government shall do something to enable them to sell their produce in order not only to produce a reasonable profit to the farmers themselves but wages for their employés. With regard to the question of quota and the statement that a restriction of output automatically and invariably causes an increase in price, I think that if the
  1122
  right hon. and gallant Gentleman will have a private conversation with the hon. Member for Ecclesall (Sir S. Roberts), the latter will be able to prove very conclusively that, instead of causing an increase in price, the application of a quota system will create a reduction in the costs of output.
  May I refer to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) which he delivered on the Committee stage of this Bill. Hon. Members will remember that he referred to a South Yorkshire colliery, and lamented the fact that there was a colliery there with an output of from 600,000 to 650,000 tons which had become involved in the Five Counties Scheme, that their quota was to be reduced to about 80 per cent., that their output was to be reduced to that standard, that the cost of overhead charges was to remain the same, but that the cost of output was to be increased, so that now a really prosperous colliery had been turned into one which was losing money, and that they had given notice to withdraw from the scheme. What are the facts of the case? I have the whole of the figures of the output of this particular colliery for 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1927 and 1929. Here is a colliery whose output never reached 600,000 tons, but whose output for the years mentioned averaged approximately 489,000 tons. But because the basic tonnage had been fixed upon the imagination of the directors of that particular company somewhere in the region of 650,000 tons the Five Counties Scheme Organisation Committee had conceded them the basic tonnage of about 670,000 tons. So that 80 per cent. of 670,000 tons would give them about 100 per cent, of their own output over a number of years, whereas the average for the previous five years was 489,000 tons. Their actual output for the year ending 31st March, 1929, was 487,000 tons.
  Therefore, the argument submitted with such great force by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs amounted to this, that this great colliery have had their output reduced by means of the Five Counties Scheme quota operation by 2,000 tons per year. That has made no material difference to this particular colliery at all, except that some

  1123
  sense of proportion did enter into the mining industry in that particular area. It is true to say that the element of competition has been removed and that to a certain extent price fixing has taken the place of the internal competition scramble which had hitherto prevailed, with the result that the improvement in prices not only disposed of any effect that the reduction in output by 2,000 tons may have had, but that colliery, in conjunction with practically the whole of the rest of the collieries in that area, are to-day making a better profit than they have made at any time during the last five or six years. Therefore, from that point of view the quota scheme, as practised in those counties, has proved a unique success, as far as a partial scheme can be expected to go.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned another figure on the Committee stage to which I should like to refer. He referred to the same colliery again. He said that here was a colliery whose output had been restricted and which had a quota which was much less than their actual capacity, but what had they to do? They must go out into the mining area and buy up some quotas. He said that they spent £40,000 per annum in one way or another buying up quotas of coal at the rate of 1s. 6d. per ton. I have already informed the Committee that the output of this particular colliery for the whole year was 487,000. £40,000 spent on quotas at the rate of 1s. 6d. per ton accounts for over 500,000 tons. The right hon. Gentleman had made a slight mistake. Instead of having spent £40,000 upon quotas they purchased 29,400 tons of coal.
  Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: Was that the same colliery?
  Mr. WILLIAMS indicated assent.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: I do not know that it was the same colliery.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I will tell the Committee the name of the colliery.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: I am not sure that my right hon. Friend was referring to the same colliery on both occasions.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: He gave the name of the colliery at the conclusion. The actual quantity of coal purchased by this colliery was 29,400 tons for one year.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: My right hon. Friend was not referring to that colliery then.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that he was referring to the Kiveton Park Colliery, near Sheffield.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: On the first occasion?
  Mr. WILLIAMS: And on the second occasion too. I should be the first person to apologise to the right hon. Gentleman if I had done him any sort of injustice. He indicated to me that that was the colliery which he meant. However, I need hardly hang my argument upon that point. The right hon. Gentleman's figures on the Second Reading and on the Committee stage had no actual relation to the facts of the case. With regard to the possible increase in price referred to by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, all I need say is that, if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman assumes that the mining industry is a very successful industry, that we have no wage disputes, no stoppages, and everything is merry and bright, I am inclined to agree with some parts of the arguments which he has advanced. But knowing, as he must do, that guerilla warfare has been the rule instead of the exception in this industry for the last 10 years, he ought to realise that there is an absolute necessity for a change to take place.
  It may be that my right hon. Friend's scheme cannot be made perfect in the first six months. We hope that the scheme is going to be a starting point where real organisation can enter into the industry and where the requisite tonnage, both for internal and external consumption, will be assured, and where the price that the consumer pays, whether it be a steel firm or the domestic consumer, will be strictly consistent with all that is required to provide the men who produce the coal with a civilised wage, and those who invest their money in the industry, so long as private ownership remains, a reasonable return on their capital. He has not told the Committee whether what they received last year was a fair return. Scotland last year received 2d. per ton profit, Northumberland 5d., Durham 3d., but in this wretched Five Counties area, of which Yorkshire and Warwickshire are part, Yorkshire received 6d. and Warwickshire 2s. profit. Does

  1125
  he suggest that, excluding Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire or Warwickshire, we can be expected to go on for ever in this way? Is he aware that the wages of miners in other counties in the country are right down on the minimum and that, unless some organisation enters the industry, there is no chance for another generation or two of wages being increased? We must not assume that the industry is in a perfect state at the moment and that those investing their capital in it are receiving reasonable returns and the million men who risk their lives are getting a reasonable return.
  The whole industry is in such a state of chaos that this Bill is needed for the purpose of helping it to reorganise on sound lines, and the quota system provides an alternative to the slipshod methods which have been applied to internal competition and to markets which are closing up instead of opening out so that prices can be based on a profit for the employers and a reasonable wage for the workpeople. Therefore, if we have to restrict output or to concentrate output on these particular collieries that are most economic, the quota system, in the last analysis, will prove to be more effective than amalgamations in getting rid of what is known as the uneconomic pits. No one has yet clearly defined what an uneconomic pit is. If a colliery is producing 15,000 tons when it has a capacity for producing 18,000 tons, it is obvious that the cost of production is approximately 1s. per ton more for 15,000 tons than for 18,000 tons, but if they can purchase, at the figure mentioned by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, 3,000 tons from an uneconomic pit, at 1s. 6d. per ton, it will do more than permit those people to keep that colliery in a decent state of repair. If they spend 4,500 shillings they will save 15,000 shillings, and will be able to produce at the maximum capacity. That process will mean not an increase but a decrease in the cost of production. My hon. Friend who represents one of the Sheffield Divisions can put this point much clearer than I am attempting to put it.
  The facts are on record that where organisation is not employed by a body of employers, sooner or later some outside force will be brought in for the
  1126
  purpose of insisting upon co-operation. The mining industry is a typical example of the necessity of bringing about a general understanding for the reorganisation of a basic industry. If the nation in this matter is not to be regarded as one unit, and the needs of the consumer have not to be met, both internally and externally, and the people who have invested capital and the people who invest their lives are not to have a return for their output of money or energy, then there is little or no hope for the mining industry, which is the basic industry of this country. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that at this late hour he ought to follow the very wise lead of the Liberal party, even though the conversion may be late. Wise men do change their minds on occasion, and I am pleased that the Liberal party are sufficiently wise, even yet, to be able to change their minds. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, having realised that the quota will mean a reduction in the cost of output instead of an increase, will mean bringing order into the industry instead of chaos, will remove uncertainty and doubt from the minds of people who run industries which depend upon coal, because they will know that a national board will eliminate the possibility of strikes and lock-outs, and give that element of perpetual security that they have never enjoyed for a long period, will see the wisdom of supporting the retention of the word "production."
  Major GEORGE DAVIES: The hon. Member for the Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), whom I congratulate on having broken the gloomy silence which is maintained by hon. Members opposite in connection with this Bill, is obsessed, whenever he intervenes in a coal Debate, with the fact that he sees the problem through the spectacles of the Five Counties area, where he lives and moves and has his being. He addressed an appeal to us to follow the example set by the Liberal party. He did not imagine that that appeal would fall on anything but deaf ears. Whatever may be expected from us, we are not affected by what the Prayer Book would call "the changes and chances of this mortal life," that has been shown during these Debates. The hon. Member had a gentle way of describing what we have heard in this House and outside, that the one

  1127
  necessity in connection with this Measure was to get through the business and get the Bill out of the House of Commons, because it was only a makeshift to carry out those high hopes that hon. Members opposite entered upon not many weeks ago when they pictured, in glowing and rosy colours, what would be the result of placing this Bill upon the Statute Book.
  The Amendment is to omit the word "production." The hon. Member for the Don Valley was concerned entirely with the coal industry, the owners and the workpeople, but we in this House can- not afford to legislate for one particular industry, however important it may be. We have to consider the bearing of this Bill and of this Clause and its Amendment on a much wider basis than its effect upon one particular industry. We have to consider its effect upon the industrial situation of the country as a whole, and upon the consumer. It is impossible for us, with the best will in the world, to legislate on such a narrow basis as that advocated by the hon. Member. No words could have been more apt to describe the effect of this Clause as it stands, without amendment, than the phrases that were used by speakers from the party below the Gangway on this side in the earlier stages of the Bill. We have had a sort of glamour or camouflage put over it by speakers opposite. They speak about control as if it does not mean definitely and admittedly restriction of supply. We are supposed to be entering upon an age of rationalisation. The keynote of rationalisation is to increase supply for the needs of the world and, therefore, an increase of that volume of wealth by which alone the inhabitants of this globe can expect to improve their conditions and possibilities.
  While it would not be in order to go into that matter in detail, by way of illustration, I would point out that the proposal in this apparently harmless provision to regulate production in the coal mining industry is not the first instance of that sort of thing that has been tried. It was tried in connection with the rubber industry, in connection with the sugar industry, and in other directions. The hon. Member for the Don Valley said that such a suggestion would be welcomed by the farmers of this country. I wonder
  1128
  whether it would be welcomed by the consumers to restrict the output of food. There is no vital difference, generally speaking, between a basic need of human nature, whether in the way of food or in the way of cheap coal. If one of our efforts in the direction of rationalisation of the coal industry is to go along the uneconomic ground of deliberate statutory limitation and restriction of supply, it is a most astounding suggestion to come from hon. Members opposite. I have never heard a more glaring case put forward than the principle of stern protection in the interests of one industry, regardless of its effect upon the consumers as a whole. That perhaps accounts for the original attitude taken up by the Liberal party. We know well, in spite of jeers, what is the true inwardness of their change of front, and we know that behind that front their minds remain the same, that it is an entirely uneconomic and entirely new procedure in this country that we should be trying to pass a Bill containing a provision of this sort.
  The hon. Member for the Don Valley says that this has been done with considerable success in the Five Counties Scheme, but in the bright colours in which he painted the allurements of that scheme, he concentrated upon those who had capital invested in the industry, and the workers. He did not mention the consumers. He said that those who, like himself, had had personal experience of the effects of that scheme realised its great advantages, and that we had only to ask such people and they would tell us the real facts. I have had some conversation with those who have been connected definitely and closely with that undertaking. While in many respects they attribute some of the benefits of this scheme to the causes which the hon. Member mentioned, they have suggested that one of the reasons for it was that the coal industry was a public benefactor, that it was making a present of its profits to the consumer and that this ought to be stopped. That condition of things is not confined to any one industry, as can be testified by people who have found themselves faced with the same conditions in other industries.
  This House seeks to place upon the Statute Book what has been done by individuals in their voluntary capacity. Even though that individual act may

  1129
  have been a success, it is not an argument for our making that system into an Act of Parliament. The efforts to control industry have been successful in the past because they have been voluntary and have provided for that elasticity which is essential if they are to fulfil their purpose. Anyone who has been connected with industry knows that, owing to internal competition or other reasons, certain occasions have arisen which have brought manufacturers and producers together in order to cut out internecine war. Experience has shown that if you begin to control by Government provision, such as we are proposing now, you immediately saddle that industry with a cast-iron form which cannot be made to yield in any direction, and they have to come to the Parliament which passed the law and ask for it to be amended, whereas if the thing can be done voluntarily there is the day-to-day experience of those who have willingly taken part in the arrangement, and they are able to adjust it.
  I do not want to weary the House by going over the ground which was traversed in previous stages with regard to the effect of the scheme as a whole upon the individual undertakings which form part of it, if you have this cast-iron restrictive provision. The effects of it cannot be foreseen, and I think that the House are making a very grave mistake in allowing this Clause to pass without the Amendment that we seek to make. There are portions of the Bill which are non-controversial, but, taking it as a whole, most of my colleagues and myself are bitterly opposed to it, because we cannot accept that it is going to carry out the great hopes which the hon. Member for Don Valley has placed before us to-day, hopes which are not held by many other hon. Members opposite, because I know they regard it with grave apprehension. If that is the case, we are fully justified in having graver apprehensions as to what will be the outcome of placing this Bill on the Statute Book, and for those reasons I propose, even to the very end, to continue my opposition to this Bill.
  Mr. ARNOTT: I have listened throughout all the Debates on this Bill to the arguments put forward from the benches opposite as to the effect of a quota on the production of coal. It was said of
  1130
  the old political economists that their logic was sound, but that they reached wrong conclusions, because their assumptions were wrong to begin with. If ever there was a case where the assumptions could not stand investigation, this is one. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) told us that this Bill was to restrict output. The right hon. and gallant Member for South Paddington (Commodore King) said the same thing to-day, and he went on to say something that no one disputes, namely, that if you restrict the output of any commodity, and your standing charges remain the same, your costs will be greater, and in consequence of that the price charged to the consumer must also be greater. That logic is sound, but the assumption is wrong, because this Bill does not restrict production in any sense whatever. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] How many tons of coal will be produced in this country after this Bill is passed, and how many tons are produced to-day? There has not been a single fact brought in to show that production will be reduced by a single ton a year under this Bill.
  I listened with the greatest care to the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs to find out any evidence he could produce to show that, but he showed something vastly different. He showed that there were certain pits where production would undoubtedly be curtailed, but he did not dispute the point made in the original speech of the President of the Board of Trade, that, while we had a total potential production of 330,000,000 tons of coal per annum, the actual production is 255,000,000 or 260,000,000 tons at the outside. No single speaker has ever shown that this Bill will lower that total production of 260,000,000 tons by a single ton, so that there is no case whatever for the assumption that this Bill will reduce output. It will reduce the output of certain pits—that is admitted—but automatically, by reducing the output of those pits, it will increase the output of other pits, and it follows that if it costs any pit 1s. 6d. a ton to reduce their output from 100 per cent. to 80 per cent.—which is assuming a 5 par cent. improvement—it will reduce the costs of other pits to raise their production from 60 per cent. to 80 per cent. If the total output of the country is 80 per cent. of its total capacity, and if some

  1131
  pits are producing 100 per cent., it follows, obviously, that other pits are producing less than 80 per cent., so that for every pit producing 100 per cent. we must have a corresponding production from some other pits of 60 per cent.
  What effect has that upon the consumer of coal? Here I come to the most extraordinary argument of all, that because of the cost of production in certain highly efficient pits, prices will be raised. What cost of production is it that corresponds to the selling price? If a particular mineowner is successful in reducing his costs of production, either by improved machinery, or because he happens to have possessed a very superior kind of pit to begin with, with fine seams, if he can by any means reduce his cost of production by 5s. a ton below that of his competitors, does he go around to the purchasers and ask to sell it at 5s. a ton less? Obviously he does not, and I am surprised to have such an assumption made from the Front Bench below the Gangway of all places, because they tell us, when we are speaking on Protection, that we have not to consider what a local grower may produce food at, but the effect of a tax on the margin of food; and we know that the price of coal is not determined by the cost of production of the most efficient pit, but that it is determined by the cost of production of the least efficient pit, if it is determined by cost of production at all.
  Then what does the argument amount to? Pit No. 1, a highly economic pit, a pit favourably situated, and exceedingly well equipped, sells 100 per cent. of its standard tonnage, and to begin with it can produce coal at considerably less than other pits. It is well, before developing this argument further, to see what that margin is. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) referred to the owners in Yorkshire making a profit of about 1s. a ton, and in some more favoured districts of about 2s. a ton, while in other places they are making a profit of about 2d. a ton. It has been pointed out already, and with great emphasis, by the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), that these average profits are exceedingly misleading, that while the average profit over the country may be 3d. or 4d., we find upon examination that same pits are apt to
  1132
  be making a profit of 8s. a ton, and that other pits at the extreme end are losing 8s. a ton, and you have all grades in between.
  I am not going to take such an extravagant figure as 8s., but for the purposes of my illustration I will take the two extreme forms of 5s. per ton loss and 5s. per ton profit. The figurer, that were given in the House the other day by the Minister of Mines showed that the average price of coal last year was about 14s. a ton. I will assume that in this highly efficient pit, selling 100 per cent. of its total product, the cost is not 14s. a ton, but 9s., leaving a profit of 5s. per ton. For the purposes of my argument, I do not need to bother with the pits that are losing money, but I will take pits producing coal at 13s. or 14s. a ton and selling it at that price. These pits, however, are not selling 80 per cent. of their output; they must be selling less, because there is not 80 per cent. left for them if the more prosperous pits are selling 100 per cent. Therefore, I will assume that they are only selling 60 per cent. of their output. What then will be the effect of both pits being made to sell 80 per cent. of their output? The effect will be that pit No. 1, producing at 9s. a ton, will have its production curtailed by 20 per cent., and that would, according to the argument, increase their cost from 9s. to 10s. 6d. per ton.
  Mr. SMITHERS: Can the hon. Member name how many pits in Great Britain are producing coal at 9s. a ton?
  Mr. ARNOTT: No, I am not dealing with facts at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I was replying to the arguments of hon. Members opposite, which were not based on facts, but which were theoretical from beginning to end. Their arguments were: Ipso facto, if you reduce output, you automatically increase price. There was no fact that could be challenged at all, in the whole basis of the argument, both from the one side of the Gangway opposite and the other, and I am showing that their argument is not only wrong in fact, but wrong theoretically as well. Profits vary, and I have got the corroboration of the right hon. Member for Darwen, of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, and, I think, of the right hon. and gallant Member for South Paddington, and I

  1133
  have certainly got the corroboration of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), who have all said the same thing. They have all called attention to the extraordinary variations in the profits made by certain pits. I can give better corroboration than that. I have here a quotation from a speech by an hon. Member of this House who is a coal-owner. He is a Member of the Liberal party, and he says:
  "We are able to produce coal of a superior quality and have seams much more easily worked than they were in former days, with the result that in a modern pit in the best area, working the best seams, we can produce at least three times as much coal per man per shift with the same expenditure of labour as can be obtained from the old pits."
  That is corroboration from a Member of this House who owns a great many pits. But what determines the price? He tells us that too, because he says:
  "When you come to fix the price, it must be based on a figure that will yield a profit to the poorest pit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1929; cols. 1721–2, Vol. 233.]
  5.0 p.m.
  Therefore the selling price is not determined by the cost of production of your pit producing 100 per cent.; it is determined by the cost of production, which has fallen under the present arrangement, of the pit producing only 60 per cent., so that the pit with the initial natural advantage, added to by the skill and enterprise of its owners and by the fact that it has got more than its own share of the sale of coal, reduces its coat of production by 1s. 6d. below the average, and the cost of production of the least efficient pit is increased by 1s. 6d. above the average. That means, to come back to the figures with which I was dealing when I was interrupted, that, assuming your average price is 14s. a ton, and that your highly efficient pit is producing a third, the effect of this Bill will be to reduce the cost of production to 10s. 6d. We have to give consideration to the consumer, I agree, and we cannot legislate merely for the mining industry, but we are not going to have the consumer made a bogy, and we are not going to accept the position that the coalowners outside Yorkshire are so solicitous for the consumer as some hon. Members opposite would like us to believe. While we increase the cost of Pit No. 1 by 1s. 6d.,
  1134
  what do we do with the pit where it is costing 15s. and they have to sell at 14s.? If they increase their output by 20 per cent. they will be able in those circumstances to produce coal at 12s. 6d. or 13s. 6d. and therefore sell cheaper. But the true inwardness of the position with regard to the opposition to the quota came out in one or two remarks of hon. Members opposite. One was by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. He said that it would rob the efficient pit of its reward. Well, the reward of a successful business man in this country is the difference between the selling price—
  An HON. MEMBER: Profit and loss!
  Mr. ARNOTT: The reward that the pioneer in this country gets is the normal profit plus the advantage that is secured over his less successful competitor. But something else follows. The more inefficient his competitor the greater is his reward, and, if he can penalise his competitors by making them work on 60 per cent. of their output, he gets an additional benefit that he would not get under normal conditions. Therefore, if this quota is to have the effect on prices it is more likely to reduce them than to increase them. I think I have given sufficient corroboration of that fact.
  There is one very extraordinary argument which came from the right hon. Member for Darwen. His argument all along has been that, while the quota is all wrong, amalgamation is all right. Looking at the matter from a practical standpoint, I should like him to tell me the difference between the quota scheme and amalgamation. What difference is there in practice? First of all, why should we advocate amalgamation at all? We know that the old-fashioned economic theory is, "Let them fight, struggle, that is competition, and gradually the poorest competitors will be wiped out." But we know that that does not happen; in fact, just the opposite seems to be true.
  After all, what does this cry for rationalisation mean? It means that inefficient business have remained though inefficient. They do not disappear; they remain as a burden on the rest of the community. If we are to eliminate the inferior pit by competition and then get

  1135
  as much coal as we require from the most highly organised pit, then the President of the Board of Trade would be well advised to withdraw his Bill and all other legislation and let competition reign. But we know that that has never happened. Even from benches below the Gangway has had to come the suggestion of the marriage between the unfit and the fit in some amalgamation schemes—a scheme of amalgamation and a quota scheme. Here is an inefficient pit producing at a high cost and here is a highly efficient pit and both are producing for the same market. The inefficient pit does not disappear, probably because it would cost far more if it were closed down and, therefore, it carries on.
  The remedy suggested has been amalgamation. But how do they amalgamate? I suppose it is not suggested that you should confiscate? You would buy out the inefficient pit at a price and you would close it down and purchase from the other pit. Whatever capital was invested in that pit the interest on it would have to be found, and the interest is at least equivalent to the cost of the quota. You are saving in this respect by buying a quota as the efficient pit is only committed to the cost for one year, but by the other method it is committed for all time. The quota is more advantageous than any scheme of purchase that could be devised. Another extraordinary argument used by the right hon. Member for Darwen was, I believe, in his first speech on the Second Reading, when he said that it was rather an anomaly that this country with such resources for the supply of coal should go out of its way to get people coal at a cheap rate. Are not all our schemes of rationalisation, methods of producing our goods cheaply for export or otherwise?
  I think the case put up in the early stages of the Bill has not been made out. It is admitted that the cost of the reduction of hours must fall somewhere. I think we are all agreed on that, unless we can meet the case by improved organisation. The coalowners are agreed on that, but the coalowners in Yorkshire agree as to the effect of the quota, and they are practical men. The case put forward for the elimination of the word "production" has not been made out.
  Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been amazed at two speeches from the opposite side of the House, because they were in such extraordinary contrast to the speeches delivered by the President of the Board of Trade. He has been frank about this Bill, and particularly about this provision in the Bill. He has put it frankly to us that this restriction of production combined with the control of prices is the quid pro quo for the reduction of hours, and he says "that is where you get the money." The President of the Board of Trade is perfectly honest about it. I think the House will probably prefer the straightforward argument of the President of the Board of Trade, who is a persistent advocate of this Bill, to the specious argument just delivered to us. If the speech just delivered by the hon. Member for South-West Hull (Mr. Arnott) is right, that this is the way to get prices down, then he will come into the Lobby with us in a few hours' time and vote against the control of prices. If this Bill will get the price down, then it is not necessary to give the coalowners power to fix minimum prices. The President of tie Board of Trade has said: "I must have both these provisions, because these have to pay for the reduction in hours." It is, of course, the quid pro quo, and it is going to be a fairly expensive quid.
  The other argument advanced by the hon. Member opposite, and it also ran through the series of speeches made by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is that because, we were prepared to accept voluntary schemes of rationalisation and limitation of output, then we ought not to object to these compulsory rationalisation schemes. The answer is this: Immediately the State comes in to force people into compulsory combination or a compulsory price ring, the natural safeguards of the public are gone for good and all. Let me point out four differences between a voluntary scheme and a compulsory scheme. The first is this: If your scheme is voluntary, efficient firms will not enter into it unless they are satisfied that they will improve their efficiency and give better services to the public. Otherwise, they will keep out. But here you force them in whether they think it good business or not.
  The second safeguard is that the firms are free, under a voluntary scheme,

  1137
  to break away if they think that they can do better business by doing this. Over and over again voluntary cartels have broken down and efficient firms have left them. There is no such power to do that here. They are pushed in and have to stay in under penalty, under rules not laid down by the State but laid down by the coalowners themselves. In the third place, in a voluntary organisation the standard is set by the efficient firms. The inefficient have to conform to the standards of the efficient; otherwise, the efficient will refuse to enter into the cartel, or if they enter into it will refuse to abide there. But here you take care to see that the standard set is the standard of inefficiency and not the standard of efficiency, and you deliberately give to your worst pit, the most expensive pit, a vested interest in the quota, and a vested control of prices. The fourth great difference is that the State here is abrogating its duty in relation to trusts, and I should have thought that a Labour Government, a Socialist Government would have been the last to do that. They have always said that it was the duty of a Government to legislate so as to prevent trusts from operating at all. I never went so far as that. I have said that it was the function of the State—
  An HON. MEMBER: Who said that?
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Who said that? The First Lord of the Admiralty every day he spoke from these benches when I was President of the Board of Trade. Indeed, I think he said, almost in his last speech when in opposition, that the first action of a Labour Government when it came into office would be to produce a Bill dealing with trusts. The first action of this Government has been to deal with trusts, and it is this Bill. It is a most remarkable fulfilment of that pledge. I have said that the action of the State ought not to be to proscribe trusts, but it should be one of watchfulness, and, if necessary, as we always did, and as you are not doing, to watch the operation of trusts and, if necessary, intervene in the interests of the consumers. What chance have the Government of intervening in the interests of the consumers here? They are forcing everybody into these amalgamations, setting up these penal trusts, under conditions from which nobody can
  1138
  escape. They are to be prosecuted and fined if they try to escape. There are penal clauses to prevent anyone going out. No single coalowner can go out of the trust or sell below the minimum price. What chance is there of the State doing anything to protect the interests of the consumers? By their own action the Government are estopping themselves doing anything effective in the interests of the consumers.
  Those are four perfectly adequate reasons for distinguishing between a voluntary cartel and this compulsory price ring. I could marshal many other arguments on this topic but it is not necessary because they were so ably marshalled from the Liberal benches the last time this matter was considered. On that occasion the Liberal party, alert in the interests of the consumers, succeeded in putting themselves on the Order Paper before we could do so. We had a debate, and I should be content to subscribe to almost all that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said. There were a few exaggerations in his speech, to which I do not think I should be prepared to assent. I do not agree that over a million people are going to be thrown out of work; that is an exaggeration. The right hon. Gentleman said that this quota proposal affected every industry in the country; that the Government were going to put an extra cost on every industry at a time when they were meeting the keenest competition. He said that they were increasing the perils of the miners by curtailing production, and that if this Bill had been proposed by a Conservative Government there was not a Socialist who would not have voted against it. This quota proposal, he said, was universally condemned by every trade and industry in the country and there was not a trade union or a co-operative society which supported it. People, he said, would have to buy a quota in order to do to-morrow what they are free to do to-day; they would be blackmailed into buying a quota at any price, and in a rather witty epigram remarked that this was de-rationalising industry.
  His final question was to this effect: is the Labour Government going to prosecute a coalowner because he insists on

  1139
  finding work for his men, and he ended with an appeal to hon. Members to vote according to their conscience and justify themselves to their constituents. He also remarked that if it involved putting up the price of coal in such a way as to destroy the means of livelihood of millions of people—that is putting it a bit strong—we were entitled in the House of Commons, without the imputation of base motives, to stand up for our own constituents. The argument I have addressed to the House to-day is cold reasoning compared with the impassioned appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. It would indeed be tragic if those who were in the van of the defence of the consumers were to-day to be ranked amongst the numbers of the unemployed. I am not at all sure that they have drawn their unemployment benefit. It is very important, when grave matters of conscience are raised, that people should be perfectly sure, not only where they stand with their constituents, but also where the stand with their allies.
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): I must not become involved in the pleasantries which have marked the Debate. My duty is the simple one of meeting the facts. While there are advantages in a Report stage of a Bill, there is also the disadvantage that we can hardly help repeating to some extent the speeches which were made during the prolonged Committee proceedings, and the House will not expect from the Government Benches more than a very brief statement on each occasion when an important Amendment like the present proposal is under discussion. The simple question is whether on the wide facts of this industry within and outside the country there is a case for this form of regulation. In the second place, whether the industry would undertake this task for itself if the present Bill had not been promoted? In the Committee stage, and also during the Second Reading Debate, I pointed out that there was, in the case of coal, a fundamental difference as compared with numerous other industries in this country and in other lands. For reasons with which we are all familiar, there has been for a certain period of years in Europe, and indeed throughout the world, a static
  1140
  condition in the coal industry, and even if there is a considerable industrial recovery in Europe in the near future, I doubt very much whether we could get above the 600,000,000 tons of the European output and demand.
  So far as this country is concerned, we have settled down over a period of years at figures which range from about 240,000,000 to 250,000,000 or 260,000,000 to 265,000,000 tons. I entirely agree that circumstances would be different if we could go back to economic conditions under which we produced increasing quantities, by more efficient methods and by lowering the cost of production, which, when thrown upon the market, found a ready demand in expanding industry and strengthened the whole economic structure. But no one in all these Debates has ever suggested that that has been true of coal in recent years, or can be true of coal in the near future as far as we can ascertain. Certainly in Great Britain the output has settled down, and while there may, and I hope will, be an expansion in the demand for export coal, so that we may recover some of the export trade which we enjoyed before the War and in certain years after the War, I am doubtful indeed whether there will be any real expansion in the, home demand. These are important factors which in this legislation we have taken into account.
  If that is fundamentally true, the next consideration emerges. Is it the case that certain quantities of coal are being produced and thrown upon the market at uneconomic prices—in some cases at prices below the cost of production or at prices which are not commensurate with what the two sides of the industry are putting into it? In all the long and memorable discussions during the Second Reading Debate and through all the joys and sorrows of the Committee stage, no speaker has ever disputed that fact of the sale of coal at a loss; and the point of the Debate is whether this is an appropriate Regulation or whether the industry will find its own remedy.
  Let me pass to the speech of he right hon. Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister). During these many days he has been ardent in pummelling me on literally every Clause in the Bill with the utmost good temper and courtesy. He suggests at this late hour in our proceed-

  1141
  ings that there is still a great deal to be said for voluntary schemes. When we take the record of the voluntary schemes, it is broadly true that it is only in the area covered by the Five Counties Scheme, as it is still called, but extending in reality, at the height of its strength, to nine counties, any kind of effective regulation has prevailed, or is intended to prevail. It is true that there is a price-fixing scheme in South Wales, and it is rather interesting that in this district they were forced also to go in for regulation of output. There was also a scheme in Scotland for a time for the regulation of output and other matters, but that scheme disappeared partly when the cold weather came and partly when prices adjusted themselves.
  If that is the case, it is perfectly plain that there is going to be a great deal of difficulty in setting up voluntary organisations in the industry, and hon. Members must remember that the whole object of this legislation is to put the coal industry of this country on an economic basis. I suggest that there is no genuine protection for the consumers or the community if because of an uneconomic basis the community has to pay a subsidy, direct as in 1925, or by way of the relief of distress in the coal areas, which should be cured by the industry putting its house in order. I submit that a very strong case can be made on mere sentiment, even if it is true that a slightly higher price level will be available for coal as a result of this Regulation.
  I pass from the voluntary proposal to what the Bill contains. Many hon. Members who have attacked us have always spoken as if the coal industry had done nothing at all and as if this were being imposed on the industry. That is very far from being the case. With the exception, possibly, of two districts in this country, schemes have been prepared, and in at least one area it is actually in operation, covering a substantial part a the output of that area. These schemes have not been prepared by a nefarious Socialist Government, but by the owners themselves. When we took office in the memorable days of June last year it was the first request of the owners that they should have some kind of legislative or statutory support to bring in the minorities in the different districts in order that prices could be set up and that it should
  1142
  not be possible for a few people to undermine the schemes; in short, to make the schemes a workable proposition. In South Wales not less than 86 per cent. of the output was covered, and in the Five Counties area, which produces 100,000,000 tons of coal, there was a smaller percentage outside the scheme. The percentage is not so high in other districts, and Scotland in this matter is lagging behind a little. All these steps were taken by the industry, and they came to us and asked for some kind of legislative support to bring in the minorities in order to make the schemes complete in the different districts.
  As an economic proposition, whatever may be our politics—and in the consideration of this Bill I have been much more interested in the condition of the industry than in questions of party politics—I do not think that any hon. Member of this House can feel that there is any way of escaping from some regulation of this kind. The industry must do something to deal with an admitted danger, which has weakened its whole position, certainly during the post-War years, and even in the pre-War period. All that this Bill sets out to do, with considerable safeguards, is to give the owners in the different districts the power to get in these minorities, and to frame schemes for the regulation of output covering every pit in this country. No doubt, the 21 wage ascertainment districts recommended is far too high a number, and I hope to see it reduced under the amalgamation proposals in the Schedule to the Bill, but much of the difficulty disappears if we have regard to the type of machinery which is actually proposed.
  The capacity of this country at the moment is about 330,000,000 tons and the actual amount for which we can find a market is about 260,000,000 tons. It is true that there is an apparent restriction in the quota or output regulations under this Measure, but what we have always insisted upon, and what is perfectly true, is that immediately there is any demand on an economic level, this Bill provides for an immediate response. A response could be made without any delay at all. But one of the conditions which it is sought to avoid is that of selling coal at a loss, because that can only weaken the whole industry and indeed in a short

  1143
  time lead to increasing burdens for the State. There is, therefore, no restriction of output in that sense of the term. There is, as I say, provision for an immediate response, should the circumstances make it necessary, and there are also safeguards in the provisions for the fixing of the standard tonnage and the quota which is related to it, and in other provisions of the Measure. The special circumstances of any depressed industry or group of industries, can be met by the provisions relating to the quota; these provide for a response to their peculiar needs. Of course, if this word "production" were deleted, then as we pointed out in the more exciting Debates in the Committee stage—much more exciting than our Debates this afternoon—[HON MEMBERS: "Why?"] The cause of truth has triumphed—[Laughter.]
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: But the right hon. Gentleman must do his allies the courtesy of accepting their excuse for not giving them a different reason.
  Mr. GRAHAM: I submit that, by argument and good will, we have established the case for the quota among Members of the House generally or, at any rate, that we have lessened the objections to it. I need not detain the House at greater length because the considerations which I have already outlined are those which influence us in this part of the scheme, and I can only remind the House that, as regards the owners on one side and the consumers on the other, there are very considerable safeguards in this Measure. There is, as regards the standard tonnage and the quota—which are the essence of the matter—in all these regulations, the right of appeal to independent arbitration and the independent arbitrator's decision is final. As regards the consumer, there is the network of the national supervisory committee and the local committees—again with the right of appeal to arbitration—and I suggest that, having made all these provisions, we have covered the field. As I was about to say just now, this Amendment if carried would ruin the whole structure of the Bill. My hon. and gallant Friend who moved it does not for one moment, I am sure, expect the Government to accept it, and having made this explanation, I hope that we
  1144
  may soon pass to a Division which will finally place this provision in this legislation.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: The President of the Board of Trade is always lucid and sometimes convincing, but we cannot expect him at this stage of the Bill to say anything which is particularly novel. Yet there is one point which I think has not been made up to now, in the course of these long Debates. It relates to the attitude on this Bill of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who sit above the Gangway on this side of the House. They have opposed this Bill in every part, in almost every Clause, and at every stage, and they are doing so still.
  Major COLFOX: The have not run away from it.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: They say that to shorten the hours of the miners, in the present circumstances of the industry, is to bring disaster on the industry. They will not support that proposal, and, therefore, they regard all the remaining provisions of the Bill as unnecessary in any case, and from first to last, at every stage, they have opposed the Measure. But let us remember that in the Act of Parliament passed by a Conservative Government in 1926, it is provided that at the end of five years, or in other words, on 1st July, 1931, the mining industry is to have its hours reduced not by a half-hour but by a whole hour. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway cannot wash their hands of that responsibility. If they were in office what would they do? Would they pass further legislation to postpone indefinitely, year after year, the shortening of the miners' hours? Would they go back on their own legislation, passed when they had such a great majority, providing that on 1st July, 1931, the industry was to revert to what is termed the Seven Hours Act?
  The present Government, in this legislation, propose that four months after the passing of this Measure the hours are to be reduced by a half-hour over the greater part of the country. Let us assume that this Measure wilt be passed some time in May. Four months after that will bring us to September. Therefore, the proposal of the Government is that the hours shall be reduced by a half-hour in September, 1930, while the proposal of hon. Members above the

  1145
  Gangway on this side of the House is that they should be reduced by a whole hour in July, 1931. There is a small difference between the two. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but, from the point of view of the economic condition of the industry, and from the point of view which they continually emphasise, of the effect of shortening hours on the industry, their responsibility though slightly more remote is much more extensive. One hour next year is to be right and legitimate, but half an hour this year is a crime and a disaster.
  We have never, from the introduction of the Bill, taken the same course as hon. Members above the Gangway. We made it perfectly clear on the Second Reading, in all our speeches, that of the four parts of the Bill we approved of and supported two. We supported the reduction of hours. We thought it advisable that there should be a transition period of a half-hour reduction, before coming to the full provision made by the last Conservative Government for reducing the hours to seven in 1931. We also supported the proposals with regard to the establishment of a National Board for the settlement of hours and wages questions. Furthermore, on the Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and I, put four points to the Government, and made it perfectly clear that if those points were conceded we should not vote against the Second Reading. Hon. Members above the Gangway will not deny that that was the situation. They indeed were ready to vote against the Second Reading, but if those four points had been conceded at that time, the House well knew that we were prepared to acquiesce in the Bill going to Committee, when its various provisions could be considered in detail. Those four points have all been conceded. In the first place we asked that the Bill instead of being merely restrictive should be turned into a constructive Measure. [Interruption.] We advocated that proposal year in and year out, before the last Election and at the last Election and we pressed it on the Government on this occasion, and our proposal was accepted and the Clauses are now in the Bill.
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why, having
  1146
  secured his Clauses in Part IV of the Bill at an earlier stage, he then voted against the quota at a later stage?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: The right hon. Gentleman puts a question which obviously I was going to answer and which it is the purpose of my speech to answer. Secondly, we asked that when amalgamations took place, the provisions of the Measure should not be such as to cause an inflated price to be paid for what we regarded as inefficient collieries. That also is now in the Bill. Thirdly, we asked that the consumers should be protected—that their interests should be more carefully safeguarded than hitherto, and that in the matter of price-fixing, there should be adequate recourse directly to arbitration. That again is now in the Bill. Fourthly, we asked that there should be a time limit to all these proposals to which we entertained objections and that is now in the Bill. If the concessions had been made before the Second Reading instead of after, there would not have been the narrow Division which took place on the Second Reading of the Bill. We came to the Committee stage in those circumstances. We dislike the quota system. We think it a bad system and I am afraid that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is in error if he thinks that what he regards as the cause of truth, has triumphed and that we are now converted to the virtues of that system. We are not, but we have endeavoured to secure from the right hon. Gentleman amendments to these provisions which will go far to mitigate our objections.
  Captain PETER MACDONALD: On a point of Order. What stage of this Bill are we discussing?
  Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is out of order. He is speaking to the Amendment before the House.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: An Amendment has been put down, in order to deal with this specific point of the quota which is now before the House, in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. C. Davies) and two other hon. Members on these benches. That Amendment which will be reached later, and which I trust will find acceptance from the House, provides that in fixing the standard tonnage—and that is

  1147
  the vital point—regard shall be had to the special circumstances of every coal mine including efficiency and economy of working, the extent to which it has been developed and the extent to which its output has been increasing or decreasing. Those were the reasons why we objected to the crude proposals with regard to output and quota which were in the Bill—because of their effect in, as we think, protecting inefficiency, and preventing the promotion of efficiency in mines. If this Amendment is inserted in the Bill, as I trust that it may be, our objection will be to some considerable degree mitigated—[Interruption]. I am sorry to disappoint hon. Members, but I am afraid that their disappointment must be borne.
  Furthermore, we have put down an Amendment to apply a yet stricter time limit to these proposals, which still, we think, may be found in experience to work some damage to the general interests of the consumers. We shall move that Amendment in due course, and I trust that that also may receive the approval of the House. We have—and I make no secret of the matter; indeed, it has been publicly declared—endeavoured at this stage, as we did before the Second Reading and after, to meet the Government and to mould this Bill into a form which should be acceptable both to the party opposite and to this party. We have not fully succeeded in that, but we have very largely changed the aspect of the Bill with the concurrence of the Government, and we are now, on the Report stage, in these two most important particulars, securing Amendments again. In these circumstances, for the reasons stated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, we think that we are not really justified in creating, and that it is our duty not to endeavour to create at this juncture, a grave political crisis. [Interruption.] Members above the Gangway seem to have very little sense of responsibility. They are evidently quite content to say that the Government should be driven from office at this
  juncture, perfectly regardless of any national or international considerations. That is not our view.
  When we voted against the Government a week or two ago, and the Amendment on which we voted was carried, and a certain provision in the Bill was omitted, that was not a provision that anyone could say was vital to the Bill; and the fact that it was not vital is proved by the circumstance that the Bill has survived, and that it is before us in all its essentials to-day. One of the hon. Members below the Gangway has down an Amendment to reinstate that provision, and if he proposes to reinstate it, as I hope that he will not, naturally and necessarily we shall vote against his Amendment. There is no question of that Amendment being an essential provision to the Bill, but, with regard to the quota, we regard that as somewhat different. We are now in this country, for the first time for many a long year past, endeavouring to conduct the national affairs of the country on the three-party system, and that involves a special responsibility upon all the parties to make the constitution work, and to secure that there shall be a proper stability of Government. We see in many Continental countries that their parliamentary institutions fail precisely because there is—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman is getting rather far from the Amendment.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: I apologise for responding too readily to hon. Members above the Gangway and to the right hon. Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister), who invited me to make a declaration as to the course to be taken by most of us on these benches at this juncture. The quota proposals are not such as we should have proposed in legislation. We have no responsibility for them, but at the same time, at this juncture, we do not propose to vote against them.
  Question put, "That the word 'production' stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 265; Noes, 219.

  Division No. 240.]

  AYES.

  [5.52 p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Alpass, J. H.

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Angell, Norman

  Barnes, Alfred John

  Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Arnott, John

  Barr, James

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

  Ayles, Walter

  Batey, Joseph

  Bellamy, Albert

  Isaacs, George

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Raynes, W. R.

  Bennett, Capt. E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

  Johnston, Thomas

  Richards, R.

  Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Benson, G.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tess)

  Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Ritson, J.

  Bowen, J. W.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Romeril, H. G.

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Rosbotham, D. S. T.

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Kinley, J.

  Rowson, Guy

  Bromfield, William

  Kirkwood, D.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Bromley, J.

  Knight, Holford

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Brooke, W.

  Lang, Gordon

  Sanders, W. S.

  Brothers, M.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Sandham, E.

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Lathan, G.

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Scurr, John

  Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Law, A. (Rosendale)

  Sexton, James

  Burgess, F. G.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

  Lawson, John James

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Calne, Derwent Hall.

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Shield, George William

  Cameron, A. G.

  Leach, W.

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Cape, Thomas

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

  Shillaker, J. F.

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Shinwell, E.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lees, J.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Chater, Daniel

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Simmons, C. J.

  Church, Major A. G.

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Sinkinson, George

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  Compton, Joseph

  Longden, F.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Cove, William G.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Smith, Rennie (Peniotone)

  Daggar, George

  Lowth, Thomas

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Dallas, George

  Lunn, William

  Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Snell, Harry

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Day, Harry

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  McElwee, A.

  Sorensen, R.

  Dickson, T.

  McEntee, V. L.

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Dukes, C.

  Mackinder, W.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Duncan, Charles

  McKinlay, A.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Ede, James Chuter

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

  Edmunds, J. E.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Strauss, G. R.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Sullivan, J.

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  McShane, John James

  Sutton, J. E.

  Egan, W. H.

  Mansfield, W.

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  March, S.

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  Freeman, Peter

  Marley, J.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  Marshall, Fred

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Pialstow)

  Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

  Mathers, George

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

  Matters, L. W.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Gill, T. H.

  Maxton, James

  Toole, Joseph

  Gillett, George M.

  Melville, Sir James

  Tout, W. J.

  Gossling, A. G.

  Messer, Fred

  Townend, A. E.

  Gould, F.

  Middleton, G.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Mills, J. E.

  Turner, B.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)

  Montague, Frederick

  Vaughan, D. J.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Viant, S. P.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Morley, Ralph

  Walkden, A. G.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Morrison Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Walker, J.

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Mort, D. L.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  Muff, G.

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Hardie, George D.

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Welsh, James (Paisley)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Murnin, Hugh

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Naylor, T. E.

  West, F. R.

  Haycock, A. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Palin, John

  Henry Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

  Palmer, E. T.

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Herriotts, J.

  Perry, S. F.

  Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Wise, E. F.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Phillips, Dr. Marlon

  Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Picton-Tubervill, Edith

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  Hollins, A.

  Pole, Molar D. G.

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Potts, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Price, M. P.

  Mr. William Whiteley and Mr. Paling.

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  1150

  1151

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lleut.-Colonel

  England, Colonel A.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Albery, Irving James

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

  Muirhead. A. J.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'I.,W.)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

  Ferguson, Sir John

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Fison, F. G. Clavering

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  O'Neill, Sir H.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Atkinson, C.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Balniel, Lord

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Grace, John

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Beaumont, M. W.

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Reld, David D. (County Down)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Remer, John R.

  Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.)

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Berry, Sir George

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James

  Betterton, Sir Henry B.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Surly, Ch'ts'y)

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Bird, Ernest Roy

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Ross, Major Ronald D.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Salmon, Major I.

  Boyce, H. L.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Bracken, B.

  Hanbury, C.

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Savery, S. S.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

  Simms, Major-General J.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Buchan, John

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kincldine, C.)

  Bullock, Captain Malcolm

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Butler, R. A

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Southby, Command A. R. J.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Castle Stewart, Earl of

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Christie, J. A.

  King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

  Todd, Capt. A. J.

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Train, J.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Colville, Major D. J.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Llewellin, Major J. J.

  Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

  Cranbourne, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Long, Major Eric

  Werrender, Sir Victor

  Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

  Lymington, Viscount

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Wells, Sydney R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

  Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Margesson, Captain H. D.

  Withers, Sir John James

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Marjoribanks, E. C.

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Meller, R. J.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Dixey, A. C.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Duckworth, G. A. V.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

  Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

  Mond, Hon. Henry

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

  Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir George Penny.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Provisions of Central Scheme.)
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I beg to move, in page 3, line 17, to leave out the word
  1152
  "constitute" and to insert instead thereof the words "provide for the constitution of."

  1153
  The short explanation of this Amendment is that the word "constitute" would appear to indicate that the Central Council must be constituted at once, whereas in point of fact that council must be built up from the district boards. It is in order to remove doubt upon that point, and to allow time for the constitution of the district schemes, that this alteration is proposed. It is very largely a drafting Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I beg to move, in page 4, line 45, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(j) for the manner in which the assets and liabilities of the council are to be dealt with on the expiration of this part of this Act."
  The object of this Amendment is to provide for the manner in which the assets and liabilities may be dealt with on the expiration of this part of the Act. This is necessary following the insertion of a time-limit in Part I of the Bill. Perhaps hon. Members opposite will not require any further explanation.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMAN: I beg to move, in page 4, line 45, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(j) for requiring the council to consider any request made to it at any time by an executive board for a district for the increase of the district allocation of all districts or of any district."
  This is a simple Amendment, and I am perfectly certain that the President of the Board of Trade will accept it. It simply means that any executive board can, when they think the time and occasion suitable, insist upon the council giving them a chance of having the district allocation changed.
  Captain AUSTIN HUDSON: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: The short reply to this Amendment is that it is really unnecessary. It will be the duty of the central council to reconsider the district allocations from time to time; that is, so to speak, an automatic regular part of its work; and therefore these words are quite unnecessary. With that explanation perhaps my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I realise that it is the duty of the central council in the first instance to make district allocations, but would it not be perfectly within the competence of the central council to make a series of district allocations which gave a quota for six months or a year? In the Clause as drafted there is nothing which lays down the period which the allocation is to cover. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the central council makes a series of district allocations covering a period of six months and an output of 120,000,000 tons, divided among the districts. There is nothing to compel the central council to reconsider the allocations until the six months are up and another allocation has to be made. But it may be that the districts may feel that the aggregate amount allocated among them is inadequate, may feel that a larger allocation ought to have been made because the supply is below the demand; or, alternatively, one of the districts may say that it ought to have had a larger allocation because it has found the allocation is working unfairly against it and claims reconsideration in order to secure fairer treatment. Further, as my right hon. Friend reminds me, it may also have been the subject of an arbitration, in which case the council will have to take into account the verdict of the arbitrator in order to provide a new district allocation altogether; but without arbitration at all, there may very well be a case where a district complains that it has been allocated too little and that the country will be short of coal. Unless the words of this Amendment are put in there is, as far as I can see, nothing to compel the central council to take such a position into account.
  Mr. GRAHAM: I hesitate to speak again, but, with the permission of the House, I would like to say that on page 3 of the Bill, under paragraph (b), we find it stated that there shall be an allocation to each district
  "at such times and for such periods as the council thinks fit."
  That provision says, shortly, that they can fix the allocation from time to time and on very short notice, and, if the executive body in the district is aggrieved, there is the right of arbitration. I can assure hon. Members oppo-

  1155
  site that there is no difference between us on this point, and that their case is already fully covered by the Bill.
  Amendment negatived.
  The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. R. RICHARDSON and other hon. Members:
  In page 5, line 1, after the word "provide," to insert the words:
  "(a) for the collection from the executive boards for the several districts of levies, imposed upon them at such times and for such periods as the central council thinks fit in proportion to the output for disposal of their respective districts, for the purpose of facilitating the sale of any class of coal;
  (b)."
  Mr. R. RICHARDSON: I do not propose to move my Amendment.
  HON. MEMBERS: Oh!
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I beg to move, in page 5, line 18, to leave out from the word "House" to the word "resolves" in line 21.
  This Amendment, which is partly of a drafting character, will omit the words
  "before the expiration of a period of twenty days on which that House has sat next after the draft is laid before it."
  In conjunction with this Amendment, I am moving a manuscript Amendment in line 23 to leave out the words "after the expiration of that period." It is rather difficult to have a time limit for the securing of a positive regulation of the House, because any Government might find that to be a problem having regard to the position of Parliamentary business. I think there will be no difficulty in hon. Members agreeing to the omission of those words.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 23, leave out the words "after the expiration of that period."—[Mr. W. Graham.]
  CLAUSE 3.—(Provisions of district scheme.)
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I beg to move, in page 5, line 29, at the end, to insert the words:
  "in such manner as will insure that any owners who were not represented by the voluntary association or other persons who submitted the scheme shall be fairly represented on the board as first elected."
  1156
  This Amendment relates to the district scheme providing for the election of the executive board by all the owners of coal mines in the district, and the words which I am proposing to insert, are designed to secure the representation minorities in the different districts. This was a point which was pressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) and other hon. Members opposite in Committee, and I undertook to find appropriate words for the representation of minorities on the first election of these boards.
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: We are much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman and, subject to one observation, I think the Amendment does carry out what we wanted. We desired that minorities should always find adequate representation on the district boards. This Amendment would certainly give them representation on the board as first elected, but what is the point of putting in the words "as first elected"? As the district board is a continuing board, if a new board is to be elected during the continuance of the scheme it will still be desirable to have the minority represented upon the second board. If the Amendment provided that any owners not represented by the voluntary association or other persons submitting the scheme should be fairly represented, we should then make sure that we have proportional representation on the board, however long it lasted, and whether it were re-elected or not. Is there any magic in these words "as first elected"?
  Mr. GRAHAM: Again I can only intervene by permission of the House. There is no magic in the words—I never claimed that for them—but I trust there is common sense in the arrangement the Government proposes. Clearly, this can relate only to the first election of the board. After a scheme is formed, it is inconceivable that there will be a minority in that district, because they will then be partners in a common enterprise in the district. The rights of a minority are safeguarded at the start, but it would be quite impossible to go on providing for a recalcitrant minority element in what would be, from that stage, a common scheme.
  Major G. DAVIES: I think the further explanation of the President of the

  1157
  Board of Trade has aroused apprehensions rather than allayed fears. When I first read the Amendment which has been put forward to carry out the undertaking given in Committee, I thought it covered adequately what we had in view, but my right hon. Friend has called attention to the final words of it, and it seems to me that a matter of some moment has been raised. Our point is not entirely met by the provision that in the setting up of these district hoards there shall be provision for what the President of the Board of Trade calls a recalcitrant minority. I do not think that is a fair expression to use, though there is no doubt, that it is when the scheme first comes forward that there is likely to be what one might call a recalcitrant majority who dislike it. When a decision has been taken that the Board should be set up, I do not think that it ought to be uprooted in this way. Surely the President of the Board of Trade is anxious to have a genuine representation, and it is necessary, in the interests of the smooth working of the Board, that there should be permanent provision made. There should be some guarantee that those who do not see eye to eye with the majority of the Board should have a seat on that Board. For these reasons, I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will realise the importance of that point of view and will be willing to drop the final words.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. CLEMENT DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 6, line 9, at end, to insert the words:
  "and shall be such a method as will insure that, for the purpose of the determination, regard shall be had to the special circumstances of every coal mine, including the efficiency and economy of the working of the coal mine, the extent to which it has been developed, the extent to which its output has been increasing or decreasing, and, in the case of the first determination, the proportion which the output of the coal mine bore to the output of the district during some recent period during which no arrangements made by a voluntary association or otherwise were in force regulating the output of any substatial number of coal mines in the district."
  I think that some such instruction as is contained in the Amendment should be inserted in the Bill, and that the President of the Board of Trade agrees with that statement. It would be a matter
  1158
  for the Board to decide whether there are special circumstances which ought to be considered, including efficiency and the economical working of the coal mine.
  Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: I beg to second the Amendment.
  The Amendment, I think, meets one of our fundamental objections. We are all agreed that there should be a certain amount of elasticity, and this Amendment meets many of the objections which some of us felt towards this scheme.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: Hon. Members on the Liberal benches have dealt with the conditions under which standard tonnage would be determined. There is no doubt that in these district schemes all the relative factors such as the efficiency of the pit or pits will be kept in view. There was a difference between us as to what was really needed in these circumstances, and there has been deleted from the previous Amendment words which would have given an unfair advantage to mines which were unregulated. I think those considerations should be kept in view, and the Government are prepared to accept this proposal.
  Major COLVILLE: I understand that my Amendment which stands next on the Paper will not be called, because it deals with a similar point to that which is raised in this Amendment. I am glad that the President of the Board of Trade proposes to accept this Amendment, and we on these benches support it because we consider it gives a further safeguard in determining the standard tonnage. We do not wish to penalise those who have shown foresight in the development of their mines, and for these reasons we are prepared to support this Amendment.
  Mr. OLIVER STANLEY: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he considers that there is any possibility of the expression "goodwill" being put into effect? The scheme, after all, has been put into definite detail, but is there any formula which can be worked out for a whole district which would allocate the quota? The right hon. Gentleman has already had several draft schemes put before him, and I should like to know whether any of those schemes ensure what is asked for, and if they do not do so, will the right hon. Gentleman have to report the scheme to the district with

  1159
  instructions to meet this deficiency? Is the right hon. Gentleman going to offer them any advice and give them any information upon these points, or is this merely a pious expression of goodwill which has no effect upon the fundamental disadvantages of the Bill?
  Sir H. SAMUEL: This is really an important Amendment, and we are very grateful to the President of the Board of Trade for accepting it. This Amendment is a good deal more than an expression of a pious opinion. When these matters are under discussion in Committees, an indication such as this of the intentions and desires of Parliament must necessarily carry great weight, and if these provisions are inserted in the schemes, they will mitigate the evil consequences that might otherwise have followed. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentlemman for having accepted this Amendment, and it is a happy circumstance that, on this occasion, we are supported by hon. Members above the Gangway. I hope the fact that hon. Members above the Gangway find themselves supporting a Liberal Amendment will not add to the annoyance which they have previously expressed.
  Colonel LANE FOX: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) can be allowed to get away like that. We on these benches were glad to support a Liberal Amendment, namely, one which took out of the Bill all control of output and limitation of production, which was denounced so eloquently from the Liberal benches, but which has been allowed to go through in consequence of a deal which, apparently, has been made between hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway and the Government. I only want to say that this is a Amendment which carries very little weight, and I am surprised that the Liberal party have been willing, for a deal of this sort, to give up the Amendment which they previously put forward in such eloquent terms, and forsake a principle about which they professed to feel very strongly.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Major COLVILLE: I beg to move, in page 6, line 29, at the end, to insert the words:
  1160
  "Provided that if in the case of a coal mine which is owned or controlled by, or comprised in an industrial undertaking, the coal supplied, whether as coal or coke, from that coal mine to and for the use of that undertaking is in excess of its quota then its quota shall be deemed to be the amount of coal so supplied."
  This Amendment deals with the question of composite undertakings. It is a proposal which was supported by members of the Liberal party on the Committee stage, but it was not accepted by the Government. I regard this as a very important Amendment indeed, because the Bill as it stands cuts across true rationalisation and tends to prevent the grouping together of the coal industry and those industries which are dependent on coal, in vertical rather than horizontal combinations. That point was elaborated on the Committee stage, and I do not think it is necessary for me to go over the same ground again. I must, however, express my view that, unless this Amendment is adopted, there is a very grave risk of our taking a backward step. If, instead of moving forward as other countries are doing in this matter of vertical combinations, such as have been formed in Germany and America, we form watertight compartments in the coal trade, we shall suffer for it in time. The most able exposition of the principle contained in this Amendment came from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) during the Committee stage. He outlined the dangers that exist under the Bill at the present time, of cutting across the true grouping of the coal industry with its great consumers, and he ended a mast effective speech by saying that the Bill would be greatly improved if its effect were to encourage such reorganisation, that is to say, vertical reorganisation. But to leave the Bill as it stands, without this Amendment, would seriously discourage such reorganisation. I trust that the President of the Board of Trade will see his way now to accept this Amendment.
  We on these benches have expressed our view throughout in opposition to the quota principle. So far as Scotland is concerned, the district which I know best, I see almost certain unemployment under the quota. Just over a year ago there was in operation in Scotland a voluntary scheme, carried out by the owners. It was a scheme of limitation of produc-

  1161
  tion. I do not notice any Scottish mining Members in the House at the moment, but I am sure that were they here they would bear me out in saying that, while that scheme was in operation, there was grievous local unemployment and distress in certain areas. That scheme was applied voluntarily by the owners at that time, to meet a very serious situation in the industry. It was strong medicine. We claim that that strong medicine is not required now, and that those who are passing this Bill in its present form must take the responsibility for the unemployment which will inevitably be caused by the application of the quota. The effect of this Amendment would be to alleviate that unemployment. There are in many parts of the country, in composite undertakings, coal pits which are running full time because their whole output is required for the undertaking which owns them. I am not referring only to the iron and steel trade. I am known to be connected with that trade, but there are many other trades, such as the pottery trade, the refractory brick trade, the shale oil industry, and other industries which make use of coal, and in which the owners of undertakings have purchased coal mines and keep them running, in many cases at full time, for the purpose of their own requirements. Why in the name of common sense should a quota be applied in these circumstances, causing unemployment unnecessarily, and interfering with those industries which had the good sense to look ahead and secure their coal and rationalise on proper lines? I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will most earnestly consider this Amendment, and see if he cannot accept it.
  Major DAVIES: I beg to second the Amendment.
  In brief, this Amendment seeks to provide that, in the case of an undertaking which, as part of its operations, owns collieries which provide the coal that it needs, that coal shall be outside the provisions regulating the quota, or, in other words, that it may have 100 per cent. of its needs provided by its own source of supply which it has itself acquired. My hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out that the formation of this so-called vertical system has been entirely in the interests of rationalisation and of con-
  1162
  trol from source to output. The objections which we have put forward in connection with the quota in general apply with special force to such conditions. On the other hand, all industries are not so equipped, or so constituted that they want to equip themselves in this particular way, but in the case of those who have found it to be in their interest, and presumably, in the economic world in which we live, in the interests of those who consume the goods which they produce, to acquire a source of raw material, it seems to be, as my hon. and gallant Friend has said, a backward step in the process of equipping our industries for the world competition that they have to face, that they should have an artificial regulation or limitation put upon their own source of basic fuel supply.
  Commodore KING: I referred to this point in moving the first Amendment this afternoon. This Amendment, as has been pointed out, refers to industrial undertakings which have bought coal mines for their own purposes, but I would like now to put to the President of the Board of Trade the opposite case of coal mines which, in order to use their output, have invested capital and have developed undertakings for such purposes as the low temperature carbonisation of coal. In recent times we have seen colliery undertakings developing and putting up plants in which to treat coal by low temperature carbonisation. They have gone to considerable expense for the purpose of utilising their output in that way, and it certainly is to me a most amazing proposal that, when an undertaking has been so go-ahead, so venturesome, really, as to try a new process for the better use of its coal, it should be told that it must now only use 75 per cent., or 80 per cent., or whatever the proportion may be, for that purpose, and that, if that is not enough to keep their carbonisation plant going, they must buy coal from outside. It seems to me that the case both of the man who has developed a new undertaking in order to use the full output of his pit, and the case of the far-seeing undertaking that has bought coal pits for the purpose of supplying its own needs in regard to coal, are very hard cases, and I urge the President of the Board of Trade to give this Amendment favourable consideration.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is very difficult in many ways to resist the appeal of three hon. and gallant Members who have taken a very active part in the discussion of this Measure, and, more particularly, the appeal of the representative of a Midlothian constituency which comes so very near to the most distinguished city in this land. But, even in these painful and difficult circumstances, the facts remain, and, with the best will in the world, I have been unable to discover any method of meeting an Amendment of this kind without very great difficulty and, indeed, danger in other directions. This point was discussed to some extent during the Committee stage of the Bill, and I think that Amendments have now been adopted which, indirectly at all events, meet the problem; but what is really before us is the position of the mixed undertaking which happens to have a coal mine producing coal for its own needs. The hon. and gallant Members suggest that, where the quota might be less than the output in such a case, then the actual output of the undertaking in the larger mixed concern shall be deemed to be the quota for the purpose of the Act.
  Of course, they themselves will at once recognise that the immediate effect of that would be to take pits in these mixed undertakings quite outside of this legislation. I am afraid that the Government could not agree to that course, because I am advised, by all the competent authorities whose advice is always at the disposal of every Government, that one of the tendencies, at all events, would be to acquire pits for this purpose, and it might be that a considerable number of mixed undertakings would in fact have got these collieries, all of which are to be covered by this scheme, actually outside this legislation. In other words, they would get the quota of what they are producing now, and would be quite outside regulation.
  Strictly speaking, that is not the way in which to approach this problem. It was perfectly plain, from the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Midlothian (Major Colville), that what he had in mind were iron and steel undertakings and other depressed industries, or industries which are in difficulties, and I have pointed out that, if we are to meet the difficulties of these industries—and it is our common
  1164
  desire to do so—under this legislation, it must be done on uniform lines, or, in other words, by the adjustment of standard tonnage and quota to give, if necessary, 100 per cent. in that field to any class of demand. The term "class of demand" is so comprehensive as to cover, not only the various grades of coal produced, but the destination of the coal; and the destination of the coal covers shale works, or iron and steel works, or whatever the undertaking may be.
  In short, on that general basis we can cover the position of an iron, and steel undertaking which happens to own a colliery of its own, but subject always to this condition, that all pits producing the same class of coal are put in exactly the same position. If it were done on the lines suggested by the Amendment, there would be pits which were not linked up with an iron and steel undertaking, but which nevertheless were supplying an iron and steel undertaking. If there were a general concession, is would be well for them, but under this Amendment it would not. In any event they must be treated on a uniform basis. The iron and steel undertakings must also be put in a uniform position. They must not be able to get a 100 per cent. quota simply because of the accident of this inherent ownership, so to speak. Iron and steel undertakings which have in fact to purchase coal on a regulated basis would be in competition with concerns which would enjoy—no doubt to some extent as a result of their own foresight—this advantage, but which must come within this regulation if the Bill is to apply to every colliery in the land. For these reasons I think that the Government have taken the appropriate course, on general lines, by means of standard tonnage and 100 per cent. quota which as I have indicated is quite possible under this Bill. But it would be quite impossible for us to exempt those mines which happen to be the property of mixed iron and steel or other undertakings.
  Sir LAMING WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The President of the Board of Trade says that he cannot accept this Amendment, although he gives no reasons. He cannot say that far an undertaking, by its own foresight, to buy a coal mine in order to be sure of its supplies of coal, is not a proper or a wise thing to do, but the reason why he

  1165
  cannot allow it to continue is because that would mean lack of uniformity, and because it would take such undertakings outside the Bill. That is an argument for taking them all outside the Bill, for scrapping a Bill which brings about such a lunatic result that it is not possible to give relief to an industry which has shown such foresight. It is not as though such a mine were going to compete with other coal for sale in the world markets. On the contrary, all that we want is that that coal shall not be separated from the business which has had the foresight to acquire it. The right hon. Gentleman says that there are provisions in the Bill which may meet this point—that it will be possible to allocate the class of coal which will be sold to iron and steel works. But that is not a certainty. It depends upon the district committee, and the district committee may not agree to divide up the classes of coal so that the class which goes to the iron and steel people shall have a 100 per cent. quota. The right hon. Gentleman is asking the industry to carry on in a state of uncertainty, because, forsooth, he does not want to break the uniformity of his Bill.
  Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: There is one point which I do not think has been dealt with. As I understand the President of the Board of Trade, he objects to this Amendment because there are two sections of pits. There are the pits which belong to the very progressive industry, which believes in getting into the closest possible touch with its raw material and having one unified system of production from bottom to top. Under this precious Bill, these progressive people will now be told that in certain cases they will have to go outside and take coal from some other pit in some other place, simply because their own pits provide more than the quota. The effect will be, as is the case under every other part of the Bill, to penalise industry. The right hon. Gentleman is laying a particularly violent penalty on those industries which are most efficient. This is the most complete give-way. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept the Amendment. If once he accepts it, the whole bottom goes out of the Bill. All he said in that nice little speech was, "My Bill is so hopelessly inefficient and incompetent, that I
  1166
  must put the highest, possible burden on the most efficient people, because unless I do that, there is no possible chance of getting any good out of the Bill at all."
  Dr. BURGIN: We are discussing whether or not there should be certain words included in the Bill. What is perhaps much more important is whether the object intended to be covered by the Amendment will be borne in mind by the Board of Trade when considering schemes. It is of less importance to the House that any particular words should be inserted than to have an assurance from the Minister that the point intended to be covered will be borne in mind. I listened with the greatest interest to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and I rather detected a note which alarmed me. It seemed to be that in the desire to produce uniformity amongst the steel workers, some of whom might have colliery facilities while others would not, the right hon. Gentleman proposed in his process of rationalisation rather to pull back those who had gone ahead than to speed up the laggards. I feel sure, although that was an interpretation that it was possible to put upon his words, he would have no real desire to adopt any such principle in practice, but I should be greatly relieved if we could hear two or three words from him assuring us that, if the Amendment be not pressed, the Board of Trade, when dealing with schemes which will come under its control, will bear in mind what we have in view, that you should not penalise industry for foresight but that, on the contrary, you should do everything you could to encourage it, and that rationalisation means helping the weaker and not penalising the stronger.
  Mr. REID: I cannot go as far as the last speaker. I am not prepared to delegate legislation, but I would urge the Minister not to leave the matter as he has left it. I cannot see why the Amendment should not receive further consideration. If the Bill is not entirely uniform, it does not matter at all to anyone. We have a concrete case and I should like to know why it cannot be provided for. We have the case of a steel works which owns a mine and supplies the coal necessary for its own purposes. I admit that to a certain extent it impairs the uniformity of the Bill if the right hon. Gentleman

  1167
  says it is to extend to every coal mine in the country, but I should like to know how the scheme of the Bill would really be interfered with by the Amendment. The coal does not come on the market and does not influence the price in any way. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain why a mine, none of the produce of which comes to the market, which does not compete in any other colliery and which will have to comply with regulations, can in any way mar the operations of the Bill. I may be densely stupid, but I fail to find any reason in anything the right hon. Gentleman has said to explain it.
  Captain PEAKE: This is a very important matter, and I believe the right hon. Gentleman has failed to answer two very important considerations as regards these mixed undertakings. The two considerations are these: In a great many districts you have a few mixed undertakings, but their owners are everywhere in the country as a whole, and in every district, in a very substantial minority, whether it be South Wales, Durham or Scotland, of something like 10 to 1. The second consideration is that the interests of the owners of these mixed mines are directly and vitally opposed to those of the owners of all other mines, because if a mixed undertaking is a steel works, it is clear that, in so far as it cannot supply its own coal from its own mine, it has to go into the open market to purchase. The right hon. Gentleman says they will be able to get a separate quota for this class of coal. Coal that goes to a steel works will be classified as such, and they will be able to obtain a 100 per cent. quota. What chances have they, when they go to the executive board meeting and their representatives are in a huge minority, of getting a separate standard tonnage and a separate quota for this class of coal? None whatever. I suppose, if they failed to obtain one, the right hon. Gentleman would say their remedy is to go to arbitration. I do not know whether it is possible to go to arbitration on a question of that sort that there should be a separate quota for one class of coal, but even if it is, we all know the habits of arbitrators. They always try to arrive at some sort of
  1168
  compromise, and there is absolutely no guarantee that an arbitrator, say in Scotland, would come to the same conclusion on this vitally important matter as an arbitrator in South Wales.
  This legislation is founded largely upon the Five Counties Scheme. That scheme gives a far greater measure of protection to the owners of mixed undertakings than is proposed by the Amendment. What happens is this: All coal supplied—it need not come from a mine owned by the owner of the steel works—for metallurgical coking is automatically external to the quota. That is to say, it suffers no percentage reduction of any sort, but is absolutely free of quota reduction. That ensures that steel works and iron works at all times shall have a perfectly free supply of coal for metallurgical coking. That is a fair greater concession to the owners of mixed mines than is proposed in the Amendment. After all, we know the history of the great German coal cartel. It has been in operation since 1893, and time after time it has been on the verge of breaking up, and all because of the difficulties between the mixed mines and the pure. That has been the trouble all along, and it is the trouble to-day. Although the German coal cartel is now in force by law, it is in very great difficulties owing to this question between the mixed mines and the pure. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to leave this vitally important question to be settled by a set of arbitrators, who may give a different decision upon completely different principles in all these 21 districts. I ask him, before we part with the Bill altogether, to put in some provision which will settle the principle upon which these mixed undertakings are to be dealt with.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I find it very difficult to add to the explanation I have already given. In a scheme of this kind, which is to regulate all the output of coal, the only possible basis is one that is uniform, so far as we can possibly make it, provided we are satisfied that we have given rights or safeguards to separate classes of coal. I should have thought that a good deal of the argument of the hon. Member who has just spoken really is in favour of the Government's pro-

  1169
  posal rather than against it. My impression is that it is far more likely to get rid of a difficulty in what has been a very acute problem elsewhere. I am obliged to say, having spent a good deal of time with this proposal, that there does not appear to be any other way of dealing with it if we are not to be landed in very great difficulties in all directions, and, indeed, in hopeless anomalies as between individual pits and between individual steel works. The hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin) asked what kind of view the Board of Trade would take, and I thought I detected underlying his speech, and indeed all the other speeches, a very natural fear regarding the iron and steel industry, or the depressed industries. The Coal Commission in 1925 pointed out that, unless these industries recovered, there was not much hope for an important part of the whole demand for coal, and accordingly there is a very strong incentive right away to the coal industry—and it remains to-day—to do the very best it can for iron and steel or for any other depressed industry. They must do that on uniform lines. The
  Amendment is comprehensive in character, and hon. Members will observe that it says, in regard to standard tonnage, which is the essence of this problem from beginning to end: "Regard shall be had to the special circumstances of every coal mine." That might be held to bring in the coal mine within a mixed undertaking on the one hand and the coal mine perfectly free on the other. I cannot say what view the Board of Trade will take regarding every scheme submitted to it, but I can say, in general, that the special circumstances of those depressed heavy industries were very carefully kept in view and that provision was made for the special treatment, which I have described without going into what I regard as the scheme of this Clause and the inroad made on the regulations. I trust that with that further explanation hon. Members will agree that, however great the difficulty, we have met it in the most practical form in this Bill.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 271.

  Division No. 241.]

  AYES.

  [7.3 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Butler, R. A.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Albery, Irving James

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  England, Colonel A.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'L.,W.)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

  Castle Stewart, Earl of

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Ferguson, Sir John

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

  Fielden, E. B.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Fison, F. G. Clavering

  Atkinson, C.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

  Christie, J. A.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Cotonel Francis E.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

  Balniel, Lord

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Beaumont, M. W.

  Colville, Major D. J.

  Grace, John

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.)

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Berry, Sir George

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Betterton, Sir Henry B.

  Cranbourne, Viscount

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Bird, Ernest Roy

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Boothby, R. I. G.

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Gulnness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Conliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Boyce, H. L.

  Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Bracken, B.

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Buchan, John

  Dixey, A. C.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Duckworth, G. A. V.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Bullock, Captain Malcolm

  Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Hope, Sir Harry (Fortar)

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Muirhead, A. J.

  Southby, Commander A. R. J.

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Nicholson, Col.Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld)

  Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

  Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  O'Neill, Sir H.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Peake, Capt. Osbert

  Thomson, Sir F.

  King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Lamb. Sir J. Q.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Todd, Capt. A. J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Train, J.

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

  Remer, John R.

  Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

  Llewellin, Major J. J.

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Ward, Lieut-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James

  Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Suey, Ch'ts'y)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Long, Major Eric

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Lymington, Viscount

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Ross, Major Ronald D.

  Wells, Sydney R.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Salmon, Major I.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Withers, Sir John James

  Margesson, Captain H. D.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Marjoribanks, E. C.

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Womersley, W. J.

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Meller, R. J.

  Savery, S. S.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Wright, Brig.-Gen. N. D. (Tavist'K)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Simms, Major-General J.

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

  Mond, Hon. Henry

  Skelton, A. N.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Marquess of Titchfield and Sir

  Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

  Smithers, Waldron

  George Penny.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Chater, Daniel

  Hardie, George D.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Church, Major A. G.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Clarke, J. S.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Haycock, A. W.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Alpass, J. H.

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Hayes, John Henry

  Ammon, Charles George

  Compton, Joseph

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Angell, Norman

  Cove, William G.

  Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Arnott, John

  Daggar, George

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Dallas, George

  Herriotts, J.

  Ayles, Walter

  Dalton, Hugh

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Day, Harry

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Barnes, Alfred John

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Hollins, A.

  Barr, James

  Dickson, T.

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Batey, Joseph

  Dukes, C.

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Bellamy, Albert

  Duncan, Charles

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood

  Ede, James Chuter

  Isaacs, George

  Bennett, Capt. E. N. (Cardiff, Central)

  Edmunds, J. E.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Benson, G.

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  Johnston, Thomas

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Egan, W. H.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Bevan, Aneurln (Ebbw Vale)

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Bowen, J. W.

  Freeman, Peter

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Bromfield, William

  Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

  Kinley, J.

  Bromley, J.

  Gill, T. H.

  Kirkwood. D.

  Brooke, W.

  Gillett, George M.

  Knight, Holford

  Brothers, M.

  Gossling, A. G.

  Lang, Gordon

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Gould, F.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Lathan, G.

  Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Buchanan, G.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).

  Law, A. (Rossendale)

  Burness, F. G.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Lawrence, Susan

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Lawson, John James

  Caine, Derwent Hall.

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Cameron, A. G.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Leach, W.

  Cape, Thomas

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  Lees. J.

  1172

  1173

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  Sorensen, R.

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Palin, John Henry

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Paling, Wilfrid

  Stephen, Campbell

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Palmer, E. T.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

  Longden, F.

  Perry, S. F.

  Strauss, G. R.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Sullivan, J.

  Lowth, Thomas

  Phillips, Dr. Marlon

  Sutton, J. E.

  Lunn, William

  Pole, Major D. G.

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Potts, John S.

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Price, M. P.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  McElwee, A.

  Raynes, W. R.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  McEntee, V. L.

  Richards, R.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Mackinder, W.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Toole, Joseph

  McKinlay, A.

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Tout, W. J.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Townend, A. E.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Ritson, J.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  McShane, John James

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Turner, B.

  Mansfield, W.

  Romerll, H. G.

  Vaughan, D. J.

  March, S.

  Rosbotham, D. S. T.

  Viant, S. P.

  Marcus, M.

  Rowson, Guy

  Walkden, A. G.

  Markham, S. F.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Walker, J.

  Marley, J.

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Wallace, H. W.

  Marshall, Fred

  Sanders, W. S.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Mathers, George

  Sandham, E.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Matters, L. W.

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Maxton, James

  Scurr, John

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Melville, Sir James

  Sexton, James

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Messer, Fred

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Middleton, G.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Welsh, James (Paisley)

  Mills, J. E.

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Montague, Frederick

  Shield, George William

  West, F. R.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Morley, Ralph

  Shillaker, J. F.

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Shinwell, E.

  Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

  Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Mort, D. L.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Sinkinson, George

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Muff, G.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Wise, E. F.

  Murnin, Hugh

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Smith, W. H. (Norwich)

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Snell, Harry

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. B. Smith.

  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 6, line 40, to leave out paragraph (f).
  This Amendment deals with the compulsory fixing of prices. Paragraph (f) is the paragraph which not only empowers but actually directs the district boards to fix minimum prices for every class of coal, and provides that no coal may, in any circumstances, be sold below that minimum price. This is the last opportunity the House will have of affording any protection to the consumer, and this is, by common consent of all critics, far and away the most damaging provision in the whole of a damaging Bill. Not only is it the most damaging provision, but it is a provision which is wholly unnecessary to the scheme of the Bill. The President of the Board of Trade has made out no case whatever for compulsory price-fixing. He has advanced arguments in favour of the quota. He has got the quota, and once he has the quota he has got all that he needs, as
  1174
  I propose to show. Not only has he got all that he needs, but the quota is less objectionable than the compulsory control of price, and for this reason. The limitation of output under the quota, at any rate, operates openly. Everybody can see what you are doing, they can see the amount of coal which is produced, and they can see whether the production is keeping pace with the demand. There are many other objections, but I do not think that supply is likely to lag behind demand, because, first, it will be plain how much coal will be needed and how much will be produced, and, secondly, it is to the interests of the coalowners to produce as much coal as they can.
  Against a compulsory price ring, however, the public has absolutely no protection at all. It has no protection in this Bill and no protection by the nature of the case. Let me amplify that. In the first place, no rules whatever are laid down as to how price is to be fixed. The coalowners are given power to fix

  1175
  minimum prices on any standard that they like. We proposed Amendments on the Committee stage directing that these boards should have regard to certain obvious conditions as to efficiency and so on. The President of the Board of Trade refused to accept any of them, and today the Bill stands with this compulsory price-fixing power with no direction to the coalowners as to how prices are to be fixed. In the second place, there is no effective appeal for the consumer. You give an appeal in theory, but what standard is the appeal tribunal to apply unless you lay down the principle on which prices are to be fixed? What is the good of giving an appeal? If no standards are laid down, how are we to say the price is unreasonable? And unless it is outrageously unreasonable, no one would get relief.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) pointed out that the kind of case you are going to get is not where prices are outrageously unreasonable, but that kind of increase in price which will have no standard on which to base an attack and criticism. Over and over again the industrial and domestic consumers will, under this Bill, be suffering under, it may be, small but progressive and cumulative increases of price which would not have taken place but for the provisions which you have inserted. In any case, there will be endless delay. You give this theoretical appeal. It has to go to a committee of inquiry, and if there is a dispute it goes to the arbitrator, and then it comes to the Board of Trade. We had all this out on the Committee stage. It is plain that it will take months before the tribunal can come to any decision, and it is not going to be of much use to any consumer.
  The consumer has no real protection under this Bill by any appeal, and he certainly has no natural protection. As distinct from most other commodities, the price is not necessarily controlled by demand, and, indeed, if you have a price ring of this kind it is not likely to be controlled by demand at all. Coal is a commodity which people must have. Industry must have coal and the domestic consumer must have coal. I know it is true that if you put the price outrageously high you may, to some extent, limit production, yet that will be by no
  1176
  very great amount. But for the bulk of coal which industry and the domestic consumer must have there is no natural protection in the matter of price. The consumer has to have coal, and, therefore, if you have a price ring of this kind, you can put up the price as high as you like. The only protection you have would be if some coalowner found it good business to sell more cheaply. But you stop him from doing that. You force every coal-owner into this price ring, and, subject to penalty you keep him there, so that not a coalowner in the country can sell any coal below the minimum price, however anxious he may be to do so.
  Lastly, there is no effective competition from abroad. In other cases where you have a price ring you get an effective competition of imported articles coming against them, but coal is the one thing where you will not get such effective competition. As far as the consumer is concerned, he stands to lose all along the line. There is not a direction given in the Bill to protect him, and he has no really effective right of appeal. The Liberal orators were justified when they said that this was about the worst provision in the whole of the Bill. It will be interesting to see what action they take to protect the consumer. They said that they reserved all their rights on the Report stage and Third Reading. It is not only the consumer who is so badly hit by this provision. That fact would be bad enough; indeed, it would be a sufficient reason for cutting out the price control altogether. It cannot be said that this price control is necessary for the industry. It is dead against the interests of efficiency.
  I listened very carefully on the last occasion to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade justifying price control. He really had only one argument to justify it. He said in effect, "I must have this compulsory price control, because even if I have got the quota, there may still be weak sellers, and I must compel everybody to come in and sell at the minimum price to avoid the weak sellers." What is creating weak sellers? It is the absence of the quota provision. That is the justification for the quota. He said. "I must have the quota, because there is a minority who might come in and undersell. He has got them into the quota. They can only

  1177
  produce the amount of the quota now. If you regulate production in this industry according to demand—and that is what you are going to do—where is the weak seller? No one is going to be a weak seller where the supply is only sufficient for the market to absorb. Weak sellers are created when there is a glut on the market, and someone comes in and sells cheaply. Your quota cuts that possibility out. There is no possible reason why we should have price control to avoid weak sellers when weak sellers are eliminated by the quota.
  If you establish price control, you discourage efficient salesmanship. I do not think that the President of the Board of Trade will deny that fact. You are forcing everybody to sell at the same minimum price; nobody can sell below the minimum. You are fixing a minimum price for every class of coal. What encouragement is there to anybody to develop an efficient selling organisation if he is to be allowed no liberty to go in and be a keen seller and try and attract purchasers? We try to attract purchasers by varying prices and giving efficient services. There is every possible discouragement to the efficient salesman. You give, by this price fixing, a new and a wholly unnecessary vested interest to the more expensive pit. The quota gives a vested interest to every pit, however expensive that pit may be to run. That is bad enough, but you are not content with that. You come along and say, "Not only shall you have the vested interest of a quota, but of a minimum price at which you can sell at a profit."
  A committee of owners which embraces the inefficient as well as the efficient is quite certain to fix prices at a level which will suit the inefficient and not that which will suit the efficient. You have to get the prices settled by agreement. We all know what the position is like if you meet round a board. The efficient man left to himself in keen competition will sell at a certain price, but all the inefficient people come along and say, "We really cannot make a profit at that price and shall not be able to pay wages. Put up the minimum price 1s. more." What will be the answer? The efficient man will say, "I am to have no freedom in this matter. I am already limited by quota, and sell a fixed amount, and I am sure of my market for the fixed
  1178
  amount. Well, put up the price so that it suits the less efficient; I shall make 2s. instead of 1s." Therefore, you tend to get prices fixed on a scale to suit the most inefficient producers. You stabilise your inefficient pit, by giving it, not only a quota, but an extra vested interest of a price at which it can make a profit. [An HON. MEMBER "And the more inefficient the better."] Yes, that is so.
  Look again at the hopeless inelasticity of this proposal. Your keen seller to-day wants to be able to vary the price so as to suit his market and to capture business. The only way in which you can capture new business is by doing that. Are you going to allow him to do that? He is absolutely prohibited from doing that under the Bill. A minimum price is fixed for every class of coal. Nobody, however anxious he may be to capture a market, and however keen the competition, can go and sell below the minimum price of any grade of coal fixed by the committee, and from which he can have no escape until that committee meets again. I do not believe that there is any power under this Clause for a coalowner to deliver a big mixed consignment at an "all-in" price. Is there? If anyone in this business has a chance of delivering several classes of coal at a reduced price, can be do so under this Bill? I do not believe that he can. The price is fixed for every class of coal, and it is a penal offence to sell any class of coal below the fixed price. Can I quote the day after this Bill has become law an all-in price for 10,000 tons of coal? I do not believe that I can. I am sure I cannot. You are preventing it under this Bill. I put the question to the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he is going to find out. It may not be his intention, but what right is there under the positive and absolute provision of this Clause, which says that prices are to be fixed for every class of coal, to quote an all-in price?
  Mr. RICHARDSON: There is a class of coal which is called unscreened coal, and that can be quoted as "all-in."
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE - LISTER: Of course, I know that. I am not talking about unscreened coal; I am talking about the Bill under which a price has to be fixed for every class of coal. I know that

  1179
  there are 30 or 40 different classes of coal produced at a single colliery. I know also that coal from the same seam is sold at one price at one colliery and at a higher price at another colliery, because it is a better type of coal. With 50 different prices for 50 different types of coal, a man is not going to break away, and say, "I am going to sell coal as unscreened coal and so come outside the provisions of the Act." He would soon be hauled up before the committee.
  Let me put another question. You fix your prices for all the different grades of coal. Is it possible under this provision to quote a different price for a large consignment and for a small consignment of the same class of coal? I want to know. I am selling the same class of coal. Have I to quote at the same rate for 10,000 tons of this class of coal as for 100 tons? Apparently, under this Clause, I have. If that is the position, how fantastic it is to say, "Let us increase our sales and try to do more business and to get new markets." When you get a chance of securing a very big order, you cannot cut your price by a farthing a ton, in order to get the market. Is that the position or is it not? If it is not the position, let us observe what is the result. There is a limitless vista of varying prices. If you are to have the right to quote a different price for large and small quantities, you have to fix a schedule of minimum prices which covers every single grade of coal, and then you have to have another lot of prices for each grade of coal varying by the amount of coal you sell. It must be so under this Clause, if you are to have that right. You either have such a variation of prices that people will not know at what price they are Statute bound to sell or, if you have not that, you will have a lack of elasticity which will make it impossible for a man to conduct his business.
  Let me put another point. You discourage efficient selling. You give a man no chance of having that elasticity of salesmanship which is so vital when you have something to sell. You prevent him from compromising with a client. One of the commonest things in this or any other business, where you are selling large quantities, is that some dispute over quality or over delivery occurs, or the
  1180
  market goes a bit wrong, and a claim arises and there is a dispute. If you want to conduct your business efficiently and to keep the goodwill of your customer, you compromise. You adjust the price and reduce it a little, thereby settling the claim and keeping the goodwill of your customer. What right have you to do that under this Clause? Under paragraph (f) you prohibit him from doing that. He would be selling his coal below the minimum price fixed for that grade of coal and, therefore, he is not only penalised in regard to the ordinary efficient elasticity of sale, but he is penalised in making a reasonable compromise of a claim brought against him. I do not believe that this price fixing could ever have had any place in any scheme designed by the President of the Board of Trade. I should be very interested to know where this compulsory price fixing came from.
  You must have quick decision. You must be able to change the price quickly if you are to capture business. How would you be able to do that under this Clause? If people want to change the price they will have to go to the District Board, and the District Board will hear the case. How long will it take to get a decision from the District Board that the prices can be changed? If you want to do business efficiently you must be able to take that decision as you sit at your desk, change your price there and then, or lose your business. How long will it take to refer this question to the District Board? It is a thoroughly bad provision. My Liberal friends were right when they said that it was about the worst provision in the Bill. It is unnecessary in the Bill. You have the quota and you do not need this Clause for the purposes of the Bill. You are absolutely sacrificing the consumer. The consumer is left entirely unprotected by this Clause, and you are not even encouraging the industry. You are deliberately encouraging inefficiency in the industry if you insist upon this Clause.
  Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: I beg to second the Amendment.
  As far as I can see, there will be very little power of changing the price of coal. If there is the power of arbitration, you can generally find out where the shrinkage is, but in this case, where the

  1181
  miners will get 88 per cent. of any profits made, 88 per cent. will go to the miners and the difference will go to the owners. That will put the man who is claiming for a reduction not in a very good position to pursue his claim. I was talking to one of my friends on the other side, who knows a great deal about the coal trade, and he informed me that the difference in price between a really efficient coal mine producing one class of coal and an inefficient coal mine producing the same class of coal, maybe in the same district, was 10s. He went on to say that the difference in price between the very best mine and the average mine was 5s. a ton. I hold that that is a very great margin. When these people come together and fix the prices, they may fix a low price or a high price. It is to the interests of the miners and the owners to fix as high a price as they can, so that there will be extra profits for the coal owner and extra wages for the miner.
  We are, as far as I can see, going to have very high prices fixed for coal. I do not quite agree with my right hon. Friend who has just spoken, because I think there is a certain chance of varying the prices under this Clause, but it is going to be a variation upwards the whole time. The small consumer who has to buy a sack of coal at a time is the person who will be hit by this Clause. I hope that the Clause will be left out entirely. Certainly there ought to be some change made in the Clause. There should be no question of fixing prices. If you are going out for a big contract, every one of your costs is cheaper. You do not have the same trouble getting your contract, you do not have the same trouble in your office arrangements, or in your invoicing, or in arranging your railway or steamship freight. We all know well that when a big order is coming along it is going to pay you to cut right into the price. It will be a bad thing for the coalowner and the miner in an efficient mine if there is to be no chance of being able to cut the price.
  This Bill is going to put up the price of coal to everyone. What is the good of the Chancellor of the Exchequer talking about a free breakfast table for the people, when the first thing that he does is to agree to the price being put up for the coal which will cook that free break-
  1182
  fast? It strikes me as absurd that the people who vote for dear coal are going to Lancashire, where the cotton trade is in a most, deplorable position, and are saying, "Yes, we have voted to put up the price of coal, so that your costs of production will go up more." How are we going to get foreign trade in that way? Because the miners have 50 Members in this House, they can get anything done.
  Mr. BATEY: Is it not time?
  Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: Are you going to do the same thing for the cotton trade? You cannot do it, because they have to live on their exports. If the. President of the Board of Trade would say, "I am going to bring in a Cotton Bill," I would say, "Bless you"; but I do not think that he will do it, because there are not 50 stalwarts of the cotton trade behind him. I do not think that he is going to try to do it. A great many hon. Members opposite will be very sorry that they have voted for this Coal Bill, because it is going to be heard of in every house and is going to be felt in every house, in the homes of the poor and the rich. People will say, "Who did this for us?" On the Second Reading of the Bill, when the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) asked, "Whose Bill is this?" we heard the beauty chorus reply, "The owners," but one of their Whips looked round and frowned upon them, and they then remembered that they were a Socialist party and that they had shouted out "The owners" at the wrong time. I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will accept the Amendment. The Bill is not sound; that is what is wrong with it. It is stupid to fix definitely, even for a short time, the price of any commodity. There may be a demand and you may want to be able to sell your goods a little bit cheaper in order to get some foreign trade. If this Clause is put into operation it will make it harder to sell coal, and if it makes it harder to sell coal it will make it a great deal harder to pay to the miners the wages which we would like to see them get.
  Captain CAZALET: I support the Amendment, in a vain endeavour, I am afraid, to persuade the President of the Board of Trade to change his mind and

  1183
  to accept the Amendment. If he was a free agent in the matter, I believe he would be only too glad to meet us. Although he may not be very willing at the present time to meet us, the time will come, very shortly, when he will wish that he had met us on this occasion. When this matter was being discussed a few weeks ago in the Committee stage, the hon. Member for North Leeds (Captain Peake) made some pertinent observations. We all agree that he speaks with very detailed knowledge of the trade. He put before the Committee a variety of circumstances which arise in carrying on the sale of coal in his particular area. If this Clause is to be accepted, it will make it almost impossible to carry on as before. He confessed that he was admitting the House to some of the secrets of the coal industry. The circumstances which he put before the House appeared to me and to many of my colleagues, who are not experts, as extremely reasonable and sensible. We hoped that the answer of the President of the Board of Trade would show how those difficulties would be met, but the points were never answered, because they were unanswerable.
  My right hon. Friend who moved the Amendment referred to one of the circumstances, namely, that this Clause will make it almost impossible to settle some difficulty or grievance which must arise in this as in any other industry. If the price of coal is fixed, it will be impossible to keep the good will of your customer, to save going to the law courts, or to deal with the every day situations that arise in a business of this kind. Until the committee has met again, you have to lose the good will of your customer, and you are unable to settle the point, which, if this Amendment were accepted, could be settled in as many minutes as it would take months to settle otherwise.
  There were no speeches to which I listened, or which I read in the OFFICIAL REPORT, made from the Liberal Benches on an earlier stage of the Bill, when they were more concerned with the price of coal than with the number of French cruisers, which impressed me more than those which dealt with this particular Clause. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)
  1184
  talked about fixation of minimum and maximum prices. When compulsory price fixing has been suggested by hon. Members opposite, it has always been in the nature of the compulsory fixing of a maximum price, and for the first time, I believe, in the legislation of this country we have a Bill which is fixing not a maximum price, but a minimum price. I think it is most foolish, unusual, and undesirable. There is this further argument against this Clause, that in future all grievances in the coal industry between the owners and the miners will be settled by a rise in the cost of coal at the expense of the public. If ever there was a case for the production of all those arguments, to many of which we have listened in this House on almost every possible occasion, against any form of Protection or Safeguarding, namely, that you are thereby subsidising and protecting the inefficient industry, it is against this Clause.
  It has been the custom, if not in this country, in other countries, that whenever there have been grievances in an industry between employers and employed, or when there have been any difficulties in getting over a particular situation, those difficulties and grievances have been met by the simplest means in the world, namely, by raising the price of the commodity to the public. That is what must inevitably happen with the commodity of coal if this Clause is finally included in the Bill. This is the Clause which, more than any other Clause in the Bill, justifies the definition of the Bill so truly given to it by hon. Members on the Liberal Benches as the "Dear Coal Bill." I feel certain that if the President of the Board of Trade rejects this Amendment, no one in this House will more regret his action in the future than will those hon. Members who sit behind him.
  Mr. SMITHERS: As one who has been in business since a boy, and as one who has been in business on his own account, I rise to make a business man's protest against the regulation of production and the fixing of prices. I should like to ask any Member of this House who runs any business which produces something, if he would willingly conform to a rule which would limit his production and fix a price below which he would not he able to sell his goods. At the present moment

  1185
  the basic industries of this country are suffering terribly, because they are unable to compete successfully in the markets of the world. The crying need of the industries of this country to-day is for coal, plenty of coal, and cheap coal. Several remarks have come from the Government side of the House which show that they seem to think that by fixing price and production they are doing a good turn to the miners.
  Mr. W. THORNE: How many companies fix production now?
  Mr. SMITHERS: Any production that is fixed now is fixed voluntarily. The point I want to make is that some hon. Members opposite believe sincerely that when this Bill passes they will have won a great victory for the miners whom they represent. If any of the principles which I have applied to business all my life are true, I honestly believe that the principles of this Bill will in time do harm to the miners, depress the industry, and throw more men out of work, because if you limit production and fix prices, industry as a whole must go down. There is one argument which I have not heard used to-day, and it is this, that directly you fix the price of this article, the whole world will know it. You are giving away the minimum price below which you cannot sell coal, and that will put it into the heads of everybody connected with oil or any other competing form of fuel or power to look into their books and figures and see how they can compete and cut their prices, by however little, because they will know that the price of coal is fixed and cannot be reduced.
  I was talking only the other day to one of the biggest oil people in the world, and he told me that there are many wells which are sunk and are just kept ready to come into production at almost a moment's notice, and that directly this price is fixed, and the oil people see the price at which coal can be sold, those wells are ready to come into production and to compete with coal for fuel and other purposes. The whole reason for this Bill is not an economic reason, but a political reason. That reason is that a thoughtless, theoretical promise was given to the constituents of hon. Members opposite, that if they came back to power, they would reduce the miners' working day by one hour. In order to
  1186
  do that, the President of the Board of Trade has had to resort to all kinds of devices, and I believe that he is getting deeper and deeper into the mire. It is a stupid thing to make prophecies in this House, but I confidently believe that if these principles are applied to the coal industry, they will make it even worse than it is to-day. Something has been said several times to-day about the Five Counties or the Nine Counties Scheme, and the other parts of England—
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not anticipate the Third Reading stage of this Bill, but must keep to the question of price fixing.
  Mr. SMITHERS: The question of fixing price does not apply so much to the Five Counties Area, where they only export 10 per cent. of their production, but the fixing of price will affect those areas where they export 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. of their production. I want to reinforce one point which was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister). Supposing a colliery owner has an order for a certain class of coal, and that coal is raised, and in the sidings of the mine—this is not merely a supposition, but it has happened, I believe, on several occasions—and for some reason or other a liner has not arrived in port, or something goes wrong with some gasworks, and the big order cannot be taken for a week or 10 days. It is vital to that mine that the mine should continue to work, but it cannot be worked if the sidings are blocked. What is going to happen? Is the owner of that mine to keep his mine at work and the machinery going? Is he not to be able to ring up some coal factor and say, "I have got 10,000 tons of coal of which delivery cannot be taken, and to clear my sidings I am willing to take a reduced price"? That is a common thing that may happen in a business, and I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if that owner will be penalised for cutting his loss and keeping his business going.
  Another point arises as to price. Supposing a consignment of coal is sent away, and there is a dispute, will the receiver of the coal, if he is not satisfied with the quality or the quantity, be able to come to an agreement with the colliery owner to have a money arrangement to overcome the difficulty? I do not want

  1187
  to say that anyone will be dishonest over this in any way, but I can see a perfectly simple way of driving a coach and four through this Bill. If someone wants to buy coal at a reduced price, all that the colliery owner has to say is this, "I will deliver it to you nominally on the invoice at the fixed price, but you can make a claim, and we can arrange the matter afterwards." That would be perfectly simple. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is that ordinary business morality?"] No, but when a man is fighting to keep his industry going and is very hard pressed, it is extraordinary what tricks, what legitimate tricks—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear hear!"]—perhaps I should not have used the word "tricks"; but it is extraordinary what legitimate means a man will take to keep his business going in such circumstances. In conclusion, I should like to say that the fixing of price and production are two principles which are against all the canons of good business, and I support the Amendment.
  8.0 p.m.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: When my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers) was complaining of this statutory power being given to fix prices, I noticed that hon. Members opposite rather jeered at the mention of private firms. I think the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne) made a point of that. The party opposite have always been loudest in their complaints of the fixing of prices by private enterprise, and it was going to be one of their first duties when they took office to try and break up this price-fixing by trusts. Here you are not leaving it to a voluntary association of industries, but you are giving statutory powers to an essential industry to fix prices and to exploit the consumers. There is therefore no parallel between the two cases. Everyone will recognise this is the vital, dear coal part of the Bill, and we have certainly not had our views in any way changed by the assurances of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I am surprised that the Liberal party, who are in such small force here to-night, are not accompanying us in our condemnation of this Clause. I remember during the Second Reading Debate on this Bill, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) made as a great feature of his speech,
  1188
  an attack upon this Clause, and he quoted this passage from an article in the "Times." He said, quoting the words of Sir William Beverage, in the "Times":
  "The industry is not simply to be left, but to be drugged, into remaining just as it is, and the difference between the present costs and prices is to be taken out of those consumers who cannot escape. They are to pay for the continued irrationalisation of coal."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1929; col. 1308, Vol. 233.]
  That appears to me to be a very grave charge to bring against the authors of this Bill, because one of the great features which should have been in any coal Bill is an improvement in the marketing of the coal industry, and this fixing of prices is merely a stimulus to the coal-owners to do nothing. It is merely a drug to the industry not to stir itself to fresh endeavours. It is actually a stimulous to inefficiency, and, as such, we deplore it as not being a solution of the difficulties of the industry, but merely a device by which miners and owners in association can exploit the consumers as a whole. I understood the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, during the Committee Stage of this Clause, to contend that it was quite all right to leave the price fixing to the owners, because they would not be so unreasonable as to cut their own throats by diminishing the demand for coal. His party, however, do not apply that argument when they are considering the giving of powers to the Food Council. We find that they are charging the producers of food commodities with raising prices artificially, and many Members opposite are urging that powers should be given to the Food Council to restrict the prices of certain stable commodities of food. No one will deny that coal is as essential an article as food to every man and woman in the country. It comes into the cost of living of every domestic consumer and into the costs of every manufacturer in the country, and it is only upon the success of our manufacturers that we are able to carry on and maintain our standard of living. This Clause sets out deliberately to exploit the consumer in order to subsidise the coalowner and the miner.
  There is one point, which did not occur to me before in the Committee stage, but which was brought out by the hon. and

  1189
  gallant Member for North Leeds (Captain Peake) when he pointed out that the miners would get 85 per cent. of every increase in the price of coal and the owners 15 per cent. It occurred to me what a tremendous incentive this was to the miners to combine with the coal-owners to raise the price of coal. It does not matter to the miners at what price coal is sold, for they know that coal is an essential commodity in the life of the country. Lt is a protected industry, because there is very little competition from abroad. Therefore, you could raise the price of coal here without in any way diminishng the demand for it, except in so far as you might depress the industry in the markets of the world. You could extend it to an indefinite extent in this country, and you would not depress the demand here. If the miners, in combination with the owners, realise, as they do, and as hon. Members opposite do, that for every 5s. rise in the cost of coal the miner will get 4s. 3d. and the owner 9d., surely that is a direct incentive to this syndicalist monopoly to raise prices. A fact to be considered, and it is one of the great dangers which I see in this Bill, is that it has only been the influence, the paramount influence, of the miner Members of this House that has forced this Bill on a reluctant Government. That is a danger signal of which we ought to take notice. The miners' representation in this House is out of all proportion to their position in the country, and I contend that it is a great mistake to be in the position where the policy of the Government can be dictated to it by a section of the community.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Robert Young): The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the matter now before the House.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: I did not wish to depart from the Clause. What I was trying to do was to relate my argument to the price of coal. I would say, again, that not only is there this great mining interest in this House, which can subdue any outcry against the increased cost of coal, but there is also the direct incentive which the miners will get from any increase in the cost of coal. We have been told by the President of the Board of Trade that there is bound to be an increase in the price of coal. The
  1190
  right hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) said that miners had lived in the past under conditions which could not be tolerated and that the cost of the loss must fall on the community as a whole and not upon the miners. I have been dumb with astonishment at the attitude of the Liberal party on this Clause, which a few weeks ago they regarded as of so great importance. I am fully conscious that there is a Disarmament Conference in progress, and I hope that nothing that I say, or that my Friends on these benches say, will in any way interfere or detract from the ultimate success, or the possible success, of that great Conference. The hon. Members below the Gangway attached enormous importance to the deletion of this Clause at the time of the Second Reading Debate, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen said:
  "I do not envy the hon. Members opposite, and in all parts of the House, who are keenly interested in the welfare of the poorer districts of this country and who honestly and sincerely spend their lives trying to improve the conditions of the poorer classes of our community. The cost of their living is a vital matter to them, and yet, again by Act of Parliament, you are likely to raise—you will raise—the price of coal and also of gas to the poorest of the population. If a Conservative Government had introduced these proposals I can imagine the fierce denunciation with which they would have been met. They would have been told 'You are creating a coalowners monopoly, with power to fix prices at their own will, prices which the poorest must pay.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1929; col. 1308–9, Vol. 233.]
  That is what one of the leaders of the Liberal party said in the Second Reading Debate, and there has been nothing put into the Bill since which would alter the opinion he had formed at that time. We still stick to our opinion that the right hon. Gentleman was quite right when he said that this Clause was unnecessary—I do not think that this Clause is in any way necessary to the Bill as a whole. It will increase the price of coal to every member of the community. It will increase the price of gas and of electricity. I have had letters from my corporation in Bristol urging me to see what can be done to avoid an increase in the cost of electricity, which is owned by the municipality. The gas company are in the same plight. They have 100,000 consumers, of whom 50,000 take their gas by meter, and therefore may be deemed

  1191
  to be of the poorer class of consumer. Everyone of these will have the cost of his gas increased. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, even at this late hour, to give consideration to this vitally important point. I am sure, when we go to the country, we shall derive material benefit from the passage of this Clause; but I should hesitate to take such a mean advantage of the party opposite. I would urge Members below the Gangway, who were so vicious in their condemnation of this Clause on the Second Reading, to forget for the moment these high issues of statesmanship and to realise that the domestic problems which interest us to-day are not going seriously to affect the ultimate issues of the Naval Conference, and I would ask them to put principle before expediency and accompany us into the Lobby in voting for the deletion of this paragraph.
  Mr. TOM SMITH: It was not my intention to intervene, but, after the attack made upon the miners by the hon. Member who spoke last, and in view of the extravagant language which he used in connection with the mining industry, I feel called upon to say a few words. It is true that at the last election, and even before, candidates and those connected with the miners' associations in the various districts had, in season and out of season, said that the miners were entitled to better wages than they are getting now. We have on all occasions said that, while the mineworkers were willing to undergo the dangers and the hardships of coal getting, we had the right to ask from the consumers of coal a price which would give the miner a reasonable wage. Wages in the mining industry to-day are exceptionally low. It is perfectly true that when a discussion takes place here on miners' wages we are told that there is a great deal of complexity regarding the miners' earnings and that the miners pay tickets are a sort of crossword puzzle. Having regard to the hardships and dangers of the industry, every mineworker in the country earns something in the nature of £8 per week, but unfortunately he gets only about 42s. There is no doubt that in the richest coalfields in the country there are thousands of mineworkers going home after a full week's work with less than £2.
  1192
  When hon. Members talk about the price of coal they should have some regard to the poverty which exists in the various mining districts. All that this paragraph seeks to do is to fix the price of coal at the pit-head, and when the hon. Member talks about mineowners and miners sitting down together in order to mutually exploit the consumer, he does not know the coalowners. That argument assumes that the mineowners are mineowners only, but anyone who has any experience of the mining industry knows that they have more interests than those of the mining industry. This paragraph will not increase the price of coal to the figure which the hon. Member mentioned, 5s. per ton—
  Mr. CULVERWELL: I did not mention any figure.
  Mr. SMITH: I am within the recollection of the House, and the hon. Member told us that this paragraph if it was carried, would mean an increase in the price of coal of 5s. or 6s. per ton—
  Mr. CULVERWELL: I must protest against that statement.
  Mr. SMITH: I am not giving way.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: On a point of Order.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There can be no point of Order in regard to a statement of fact; and the hon. Member says that he does not intend to give way.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: The hon. Member is misquoting my statement.
  Mr. SMITH: Common courtesy demands that when an hon. Member wants to put a point, the hon. Member who is speaking should give way, but I am within the recollection of the House when I say that either consciously or unconsciously you made the statement that it would increase the price of coal at least 5s. or 6s. per ton.
  Mr. CULVERWELL: Will the hon. Member allow me to tell him what I did say?
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member must allow the hon. Member who has been called to proceed, and the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. T. Smith) must address the hon. Member for Bristol West (Mr. Culverwell) as the hon. Member and not as "you."
  Mr. SMITH: I beg pardon; but the hon. Member did make a statement that it would increase the price of coal unduly, and he went on to say that the miners and mineowners would mutually exploit the consumers to their own benefit. Surely we must have regard to this consideration, that if the price is increased considerably there is the possibility of losing markets, and the mine-owners are too shrewd to do that. The point I want to put is this: Have the mine workers in Wales or Scotland or Yorkshire a right to a fair wage? One of the reasons why wages are low is because there has been this cut-throat competition. Coal has been sold below economic prices, and the only thing we are asking is that coal at the pit-head shall be sold at a price which will give a reasonable wage. It is not use hiding the fact that those who represent constituencies where there are large bodies of mine workers expect from this Bill to see increased prosperity in the mining industry, and we are not asking anything unreasonable when we say that the pithead prices should be such as will guarantee a reasonable wage.
  When we talk about pit-head prices, what do we mean? Coal is being sold in this City at 55s. and 60s. per ton. When coal goes up 3s. or 4s. a ton you hear no complaints. You hear the suggestion that it is going into the pockets of the mine workers, but, in fact, nothing of that kind has happened. In Yorkshire two months ago the average selling price of coal at the pit-head, which de-
  termined last month's wages, was 13s. per ton, and out of that labour costs were 8s. 2d. and costs other than wages took more than 3s. In costs other than wages is included the payment to anybody who has anything to do with the supply of materials, royalties; and it left a profit of about 1s. 7d. per ton to the coalowner, except where there is a deficiency which will have to be dealt with industrially between two sides. If we get an increase in the price of coal at the pit-head of 1s. per ton it would at least give an advance in wages, if the deficiencies were out of the way, to 90 per cent. of the mine workers, and when this Bill becomes law and this paragraph operates, when prices are fixed, I believe that all the fears which have been put forward on this Bill will be proved to be unfounded. I am satisfied that the outside public would not complain if they had to pay 6d. or 1s. per ton more if they knew that the increase was going to provide better wages for the men in the mining industry. After the speech of the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Culverwell) and the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithers) I did not want the Division to be taken without saying that we want to get a price fixed which will give us a better standard of life than we have to-day.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 216.

  Division No. 242.]

  AYES.

  [8.25 p.m

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Brothers, M.

  Dukes, C.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Duncan, Charles

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Ede, James Chuter

  Aitchison. Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Buchanan, G.

  Edmunds, J. E.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Burness, F. G.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  Angell, Norman

  Calne, Derwent Hall-

  Egan, W. H.

  Arnott, John

  Cameron, A. G.

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Cape, Thomas

  Freeman, Peter

  Ayles, Walter

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Chater, Daniel

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Barr, James

  Church, Major A. G.

  Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

  Batey, Joseph

  Clarke, J. S.

  Gill. T. H.

  Bellamy, Albert

  Cluse, W. S.

  Gillett, George M.

  Bennett, Capt. E. N. (Cardiff,Central)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R

  Gossling, A. G.

  Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Gould, F.

  Benson, G.

  Compton. Joseph

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Cove, William G.

  Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin.,Cent.)

  Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

  Dagger, George

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

  Bowen, J. W.

  Dallas, George

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Bromfield, William

  Day, Harry

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Bromley, J.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Brooke, W.

  Dickson, T.

  Hall, G H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  Mansfield, W.

  Shinwell, E.

  Hardie, George D.

  March, S.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Marcus, M.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Markham, S. F.

  Sinkinson, George

  Haycock, A. W.

  Marley, J.

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Marshall, Fred

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Mathers, George

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

  Matters, L. W.

  Smith, H B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Melville, Sir James

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Herriotts, J.

  Messer, Fred

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Middleton, G.

  Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Mills. J. E.

  Snell, Harry

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Montague, Frederick

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Hollins, A.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Morley, Ralph

  Sorensen, R.

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Mort, D. L.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Isaacs, George

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Strauss, G. R.

  Johnston, Thomas

  Muff, G.

  Sullivan, J.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Murnln, Hugh

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Kinley, J.

  Palin, John

  Henry Toole, Joseph

  Kirkwood, D.

  Paling, Wilfrid

  Tout, W. J.

  Knight, Holford

  Panner, E. T.

  Townend, A. E.

  Lang, Gordon

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Perry, S. F.

  Turner, B.

  Lathan, G.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Vaughan, D. J.

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Phillips, Dr. Marion

  Viant, S. P.

  Law, A. (Rossendale)

  Pole, Major D. G.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Potts, John S.

  Walker, J.

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Price, M. P.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Leach, W.

  Raynes, W. R.

  Watkins. F. C.

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

  Richards, R.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Lees, J.

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Ritson, J.

  Welsh, James (Palsley)

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Romerll, H. G.

  West, F. R.

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Rosbotham, D. S. T.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Longden, F.

  Rowson, Guy

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

  Lowth, Thomas

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Lunn, William

  Sanders, W. S.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Sandham, E.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  McElwee, A.

  Scurr, John

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  McEntee, V. L.

  Sexton, James

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Mackinder, W.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

  McKinlay, A.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Wise, E. F.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Shield, George William

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  McShane, John James

  Shillaker, J. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Berry, Sir George

  Butler, R. A

  Albery, Irving James

  Betterton, Sir Henry B.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'I., W.)

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

  Bird, Ernest Roy

  Castle Stewart, Earl of

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover)

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Bovce, H. L.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Atkinson, C.

  Bracken, B.

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W.)

  Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Christie, J. A.

  Balfour, Contain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Cackerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Balniel, Lord

  Brown, Brig-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Buchan, John

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Beaumont, M. W.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

  Bullock, Captain Malcolm

  Colville, Major D. J.

  Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  1196

  1197

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Remer, John R.

  Cranbourne, Viscount

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Croft, Brigadler-General Sir H.

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Surly, Ch'ts'y)

  Crookshank, Capt. H. C.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Ross, Major Ronald D.

  Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-colonel E. A.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Salmon, Major I.

  Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Davies, Maj. Geo.F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Savery, S. S.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Dixey, A. C.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Duckworth, G. A. V.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

  Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Llewellin, Major J. J.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  England, Colonel A.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Southby, Commander A. R. J.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

  Long, Major Eric

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

  Ferguson, Sir John

  MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

  Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Fermoy, Lord

  Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)

  Fielden, E. B.

  Making, Brigadler-General E.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Fison, F. G. Clavering

  Margesson, Captain H. D.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Marjoribanks, E. C.

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Tlnne, J. A.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Meller, R. J.

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Todd, Capt. A. J.

  Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

  Mond, Hon. Henry

  Train, J.

  Glyn, Major R.G C.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Grace, John

  Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Muirhead, A. J.

  Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(ptrsf'ld)

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Welts, Sydney R.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  O'Neill, Sir H.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Peaks, Capt. Osbert

  Withers, Sir John James

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Penny, Sir George

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Hanbury, C.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd,Henley)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.

  Captain A. HUDSON: I beg to move, in page 7, line 5, at the end, to insert the words:
  "Provided that the owners of coal mines shall not in respect of any coal sold or supplied by them, which is used, or intended to be used, for carbonisation or gasification, show any undue preference in the matter of prices in favour of such coal as against coal of the same nature and grade supplied to gas undertakers."
  When we pass legislation in this House, to control an industry, both as regards its method of production and the price at which it shall sell its product—as we are doing in the case of the coal industry—it is most important that we should take care in doing so not to influence unfairly another important industry. It seems to me that unless some
  1198
  such words as these are inserted in the Bill, we are likely to cause great hardship to one of the big industries of this country, namely, that which is concerned with the supply of gas and the by-products of gas. It is obvious that the President of the Board of Trade and the Government had no idea when this Bill was drawn up, that it should be used to allow coalowners to knock out their rivals in any part of the business in which they are engaged. There are two almost parallel concerns which are run by the coal industry and the gas industry respectively, in connection with the supply of coke. There is the coke supplied from the coke ovens, which are worked by the coalowners in direct competition with the by-product industry of the gas

  1199
  undertakings, which supplies, in addition to coke, tar pitch, and a number of other subsidiary products of that kind.
  Curiously enough, the amount of coal carbonised by both the coal undertakings and the gas undertakings is almost identically the same, namely, 18,000,000 tons per annum. Unless some such words as these are put in, the scales will be heavily weighted against the gas companies. It is for that reason that this Amendment is being moved. There is already an advantage which the coke ovens get over the gas companies by legislation passed by this House, in that the coke ovens, being part of the coal mines and industrial undertakings, are de-rated under the Act passed during the last Parliament, whereas the gas companies, being public utility companies, are not so de-rated. Therefore, the gas companies start now under a disadvantage in supplying coke and the other byproducts, and, if such words as these are not put in the Bill I am afraid that they will often have a heavier handicap put upon them than they will be able to bear.
  It is of the utmost importance that we should endeavour to keep down the price of gas. Gas is used to a great extent in industry throughout the country, and by the ordinary domestic consumer for both heating and lighting. During the Debate on the last Amendment, a quotation from one of the Leaders of the Liberal party, the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) was read on this very subject. He deprecated the fact that by the passing of this Bill the price of gas would be put up. I can assure the House that in urban and industrial constituencies it will be a very serious thing if the price of gas goes up to the domestic consumer and to industrial undertakings.
  As regards the actual wording of the Amendment, the words "undue preference" occur in a phrase used in the Railway and Canal Traffic Act of 1854. so that I do not believe that there will be any difficulty in interpreting the worls, any more than there has been ever since that time. I hope that the Amendment will have the general support of the House, and I cannot see that the party below the Gangway can object to it. It may be that some other form of words would be preferable to the Presi-
  1200
  dent of the Board of Trade, but I hope that, when he comes to reply, he will make it quite clear that in a case such as this—and I have carefully excluded, anything which says that the price of different kinds of coal cannot be varied as between one consumer and another—in a case like this, where it is exactly the same coal used for exactly the same purpose, we shall see that the price is the same, so that one industry by means of Parliamentary legislation will not get an undue advantage over another.
  Sir GEORGE JONES: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will see his way to accept it. It is an extremely reasonable suggestion which is designed to see that gas companies are put on an equal footing with coal mines.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Amendment raises the whole question, or a very large part of the question, of the public utility undertakings in this country and their relationship to this Bill, although it is true that reference has also been made to enterprises in which coal and public utility undertakings may be together in competition. During my Second Reading speech—for this Amendment was not moved in the Committee stage—I endeavoured to make it perfectly plain that the underlying object was to secure an economic price for coal, and that it was beyond all dispute—and we have always candidly recognised it—that certain classes of demand had in fact got coal for a variety of reasons at less than the economic price. These would be called upon to pay an economic price under this Bill.
  No one has disputed that, very largely because of weak selling—for example, in Durham and in other parts of the coalfields—public utility undertakings—not only gas, but it may be others—have obtained coal, either at less than the cost of production, or at a price level which could not be regarded as strictly economic. I ought to tell the House that this matter was very carefully considered on representations made to me, not only by the National Gas Council, but also, so far, by undertakings engaged in railway, electricity, and other forms of effort. It is remarkable that railways have not pressed their criticism, and to the best

  1201
  of my knowledge, even the electricity undertakings have also disappeared from the field. It is true that gas undertakings, including municipal corporations which manufacture gas, have felt that they would probably be at a disadvantage under this Bill.
  I have no desire whatever to be unfair to any particular kind of enterprise, but I must tell the House candidly that these public utility undertakings will be called upon to pay an economic price for the coal which they use, and I suggest that it is entirely in the national interest, apart altogether from considerations of elementary fair play, that they should pay such a price. These are regulated undertakings. It is true that they supply the raw material of various other industries, but they have enjoyed under Acts of Parliament for many years a virtual monopoly in the areas in which they operate, and, moreover, they have powers to pass on to the consumers additional charges with the various safeguards of a public utility concern.
  In the case of electricity, there are most elaborate Regulations under the Act of 1919 and the Electricity Act of 1926, and, of course, railways are regulated from top to bottom under the legislation of 1921 with the form of a guaranteed return for a standard year under that legislation. These changes in the way of industrial regulation of public utility companies have been made gradually over a term of years, but the coal mining industry has remained unregulated and open to suicidal competition internally, and it is not in the national interest that weak sellers in the industry should continue to supply at unremunerative prices those who are in a position to pay a proper price for their coal and are willing to pay it, provided they are satisfied that the price is not unreasonable. Public utility societies have exactly the same form of protection as other consumers, first of all on the economic side of the coal industry, and secondly, in the machinery which is set up for the protection of consumers.
  Inadvertently, I did not reply to the preceding Debate, because I had expected hon. Members opposite to rise to continue the discussion, and the question was put before I could intervene; but this much is relevant on this Amendment, as it would have been on its predecessor. It
  1202
  has been frequently suggested in the Debate that coal producers are to get unheard-of prices for coal, and that they will force up the price by shillings per ton. I have expressly refrained from putting any figure on the increase they have in mind, but I can say this to the House without a moment's hesitation, that they have never thought of anything of the kind, and in point of fact a very little increase in the pithead price—there will no doubt be an increase—will, they hope, be sufficient to put this industry on a proper basis. All the safeguards on the economic side apply to the demand from public utility companies in the same way as they do to any other class of demand; but if those public utility companies consider they are in any way prejudiced as regards price they have the right of recourse to an appeal, in the locality or it may be nationally, to the supervising committees; and beyond that there is the right of going to arbitration on the price. The arbitrator's decision is final, and he will take into account the question of whether there is anything unfair in the price that is asked.
  I yield to no one—and certainly no colleague of mine would yield to anyone—in the desire to be perfectly fair and just to public utility enterprises, which, after all, are already largely regulated and much nearer to the principles of the movement represented on the Government side of the House than it is to the economic views held by hon. Members opposite, and we should be running counter to our whole outlook if we were in any way unfair to those bodies; but it is important that they should pay an economic price for coal, and it is beyond all dispute that in many cases they have paid less than that economic price in the past. In order that we may relieve a position which must be relieved I am afraid I could not accept this Amendment, and I am satisfied that the safeguards in the Bill are already adequate.
  Commodore KING: May I say a word with regard to the remarks the President of the Board of Trade has just made about the fixation of prices, and his statement that he has always avoided giving any estimate as to what the increase in price was likely to be. I put it to him that the minimum price to be fixed has, quite obviously, to meet a certain number of definite claims. In the first place,

  1203
  it has to allow for the increased cost owing to the reduction of half-an-hour in the working time. In his speech on Second Reading the President of the Board of Trade quite fairly informed the House that it was calculated that the reduction of half-an-hour in the working time would increase the average cost of getting coal by 1s. 6d. a ton.
  Mr. GRAHAM: I know the right hon. and gallant Member will allow me to correct him on that point. That is a statement which has been frequently repeated. What I was careful to say on Second Reading was this, that in South Wales it was put as high as 1s. 6d., but I added that in other districts lower figures were mentioned with regard to the increase in working costs owing to the reduction of half-an-hour. I have always taken the view that these figures were subject to some qualifications. I have not disputed that there would be an increase in costs, and I mentioned that figure not as my figure but as a figure given by the industry.
  Commodore KING: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation. I am speaking only from memory, and have not the quotation from his speech before me on this occasion, but I have used it at least once, and I think twice, in debate when I had the copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT before me, and read out from it what the right hon. Gentleman had actually said with regard to an increase of 1s. 6d. a ton due to the reduction of half-an-hour. I accept his word, because I know he would not attempt to mislead the House in any way, but my recollection did not lead me to the conclusion that he was referring only to South Wales as regards that increased price. Anyhow, I do not wish to quibble about the actual words. It is admitted that there is bound to be quite a substantial increase in the cost of producing coal on account of the reduction of half-an-hour in the working time. Then there is a further increase which we consider is generally admitted, and that is that owing to the reduced Output—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The right hon. and gallant Member is getting away from the terms of the Amendment in discussing the question of an increase in price.
  Commodore KING: I will not dispute your Ruling, Sir. The President of the Board of Trade made a definite statement in explaining why he was unable to make a statement on the previous Amendment, and I regret if I was in that way drawn into the question of price. There is no doubt there will be an increase in price, and I would have liked to go into it more fully, because it is a point which interests us very much, but I will pass away from that and address myself to the Amendment before us. I think the right hon. Gentleman has wholly mistaken the desire which is behind this Amendment, and in any case he has entirely failed to answer any of the points which have been put forward. He has spoken as though we were asking that coal for gas companies should be sold at a lower price than to other consumers. That is not so. All we are asking is that coal companies which are actual competitors of gas companies in so far as they have coke ovens, carbonise coal, and produce gas and other by-products. shall not be placed at an advantage compared with the gas companies. All we are asking in this Amendment, and it is a very fair request, is that where coal companies are actually selling coal for the same purpose for which that coal would be used if it were sold to gas companies, the gas companies shall not be placed at a disadvantage. The Amendment says:
  "Provided that the owners of coal mines shall not in respect of any coal sold or sup, plied by them, which is used, or intended to be used, for carbonisation or gasification, show any undue preference."
  We are not asking for a lower prices but, if we do not have some provision of this kind inserted, we are loading the dice very heavily indeed against public utility companies. They have to buy their coal for the purpose of carbonisation and the manufacture of these byproducts, and in the manufacture of coke and these other by-products they are directly competing with colliery companies Which are doing similar work. It is very unfair that a coal company should be allowed to transfer coal for its own purposes of gasification to its own undertakings at a less cost than they are selling the same coal to the gas companies. What we are asking for is that the gas company should not be charged a higher price than those

  1205
  coal companies charge to their own undertakings. The right hon. Gentleman says that these public utility companies have paid too low a price in the past. That may be true, but we are not asking that they should have any undue preference, and we are simply asking that no undue preference should be given to the gas company.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that the gas companies could pass on these increases to their consumers, but he omitted to mention that those powers which enable gas companies to pass on increased charges to their customers also restrict them to the extent that they must not increase their charges unless they decrease their dividends, and that puts them in a far worse position as against the coal companies which produce similar by-products. I know of quite a number of carbonisation plants in connection with collieries where they produce gas and sell it to the nearest municipal or gas authorities, and they are in that particular case obviously in direct competition with the gas companies. Consequently, if they are to be allowed to obtain their coal at a lower price than the gas companies themselves, it is very unfair. I merely wish to point out that the President of the Board of Trade seems to have entirely missed the point which we have raised, and if I have been in any way successful in making him understand the actual point, which is merely the question of competition between gas companies and colliery companies actually interested in the production of gas, then I shall have attained my object.
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: The point we are discussing has caused much uneasiness among gas producers on account of the discrimination which will be possible under this Measure. I have here a letter from the deputy town clerk of the City of Edinburgh in which he says:
  "The Town Council at their meeting yesterday had before them a report from their Gas Committee recommending the Corporation to associate itself with the National Gas Council in the protest being made against Part I of this Bill. From statements which have been made in Parliament or have appeared in the Press it seems to be contemplated that in the fixing of prices a discrimination may be exercised against local authorities. If this is made possible the additional cost would form a burden falling upon all gas consumers in the city.
  1206
  My Corporation take the view that it is undesirable that in consequence of any statutory provision local authorities be placed in the position of paying for coal more than other purchasers or consumers are required to pay."
  That raises the issue in a precise form, and there appears to be very reasonable grounds for believing that there will be discrimination. I will give one more small illustration in the form of a quotation from a very able speech delivered by Mr. Archer, the vice-chairman of the West Yorkshire Coalminers' Association and the Central Collieries Commercial Association. In dealing with price fixing and speaking against the raising of the price to the whole of the consumers, he was speaking in the hope that there might be a lower price for the consumers, and he said:
  "It will be generally conceded for example, that the price of house and domestic coal is, perhaps too high; but gas and electricity works, which have, for a long period been buying coal at less than cost and making handsome profits by transforming it, to the displacement of coal itself, into heat and power, can afford, without any hardship, to pay a fair price. Domestic and house coals have been carrying an undue burden which rightly belonged to certain branches of industry. When, therefore, gas and electricity coal prices have been raised to an economic level, it should be possible to reduce house coal prices."
  9.0 p.m.
  I do not want to discuss the household price, but it is obvious from that argument that those running the Five Counties Scheme are obviously looking forward to the time when they will be able to fix prices in a way that will discriminate against gas and electricity works, and I do not think that ought to be possible. May I point out that the President of the Board of Trade, in replying to a previous Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Northern Midlothian (Major Colville) in regard to steel works, said that he could not accept that Amendment because it would lead to discrimination. Now the right hon. Gentleman is proposing to give power under this Clause to those who have charge of the price fixing arrangements to discriminate against any particular kind of undertaking which they think can afford to pay the extra price. I think the President of the Board of Trade should think twice about this matter because, in my opinion, there is a great deal of

  1207
  common sense underlying the argument which has been used by the hon. Member below the Gangway in regard to this matter.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT WARD: The President of the Board of Trade seems to have completely misunderstood the meaning of this Amendment. This proposal does not mean that gas undertakings want to be supplied with coal at an uneconomic price. All they ask is that they should be treated on the same terms as carbonisation plants owned by colliery undertakings. It seems to me that it would be grossly unfair if gas undertakings, which are public utility companies, should be compelled to pay more for their coal than undertakings which compete with them in regard to many of the by-products which they produce. Coke ovens and low carbonisation plant produce coke, benzole, and many other by-products which are sold in competition with the similar products produced by other companies.
  The President of the Board of Trade said that the public utility undertakings have power to pass their increased cost on to the consumers. That is quite true, but every increase they make in the price of gas means a decrease in the dividends and it does not require a large reduction for the dividends to disappear altogether. That may not be a serious state of affairs, but, if they are not making profits, they will not be able to put anything aside for reserve, and, if they are not paying dividends, they will not be able to go into the market for fresh capital with any chance of success, and it will be difficult, if not impossible, for them to keep their plant in proper working order and extend, as they will have to do with building estates developing and to be developed all over the country.
  Gas companies have not had too easy a time during the past 20 or 30 years. They have been faced with very severe competition from electricity. It was said freely not so many years ago that gas undertakings were doomed, but that has not proved to be the case. Thanks to good management, they have not only turned the corner, but are carrying on satisfactorily. They must be given every encouragement and every facility. They are perfectly prepared to pay the full
  1208
  economic price for the coal which they use, but they do think it right, that they should be allowed to purchase at the same price at which the colliery owners are prepared to sell to the undertakings which they themselves are running. If they are not allowed to do this, the balance will be weighted very heavily against the gas undertakings, and that must in the long run have, I will not say a disastrous effect, but at any rate a very unsatisfactory effect on gas undertakings throughout the country.
  Mr. HASLAM: The argument which was put forward by the President of the Board of Trade that gas companies and undertakings were obtaining their coal at an unduly low and uneconomic price has been amply answered by the late Secretary for Mines and by succeeding speakers, and, therefore, I will not pursue that point, except to express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will either make some concession on this Amendment or will give his reasons for thinking that no undue preference will he given against the gas undertakings. The right hon. Gentleman also indicated the possibility of passing on to the consumer any increase in the cost of gas that might ensue from dearer coal. There is that possibility, but I would point out what is the position of small gas undertakings, both those of public companies and those of municipal bodies, in small country towns and rural areas. These small undertakings, generally speaking, have had a very struggling existence, and the passing on of increased charges by them to the consumer very often has the effect of causing consumers to give up consuming gas, because there are alternatives both in lighting and in heating in these rural areas.
  A rise in the price of gas is going to affect very much the poorer class of consumers. This House has always had consideration for the humbler consumer, and I would point out that the humbler folk, the poor, depend very largely on gas for their lighting and heating, and, therefore, any increase in the price of gas is going to press very heavily on a large number of poor homes. That is especially the case in rural districts. Further, there is liable to be hardship on users of coke if the price is going to be increased. A considerable number of industries of all kinds, more especially

  1209
  in rural districts—the industries of the farmer, the market gardener, and others—depend on coke. These are not very well-to-do businesses, and, if there is going to be a rise in the price of coke, due, not to the fact that they have had advantages in the past, but to the giving of an undue preference to the coalowners, it will inflict very considerable hardship on industries which are springing up in the rural districts—cultivators under glass, market gardeners and so on. It seems to me very possible that these small gas companies in rural areas may have to charge more for their coke as well as for their gas if they are pressed upon in this way. For all these reasons I very strongly support this Amendment.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: With the permission of the House, I should like to say a word or two in reply to the speeches which have been made on this Amendment. I should be sorry if I in any way misunderstood the Amendment, but I think I had the position in regard to this part of the case very clearly before me, because it is distinguished from the general wider problem of the public utilities, and is confined to that class of supply which goes to a municipal authority or to any other undertaking manufacturing products which are manufactured to some extent—it may be a large extent—by the colliery undertaking itself. I gathered, however, from the speech of the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment, that he had the whole question of public utilities in mind, because later he very clearly indicated that that problem was raised.
  As regards the question of competition between a colliery undertaking engaged in this class of supply and an outside body, whether a municipal authority or anything else, I could not, of course, agree that anything would be gained by inserting in the Bill these words about undue preference, because, unless I am mistaken in the position, and I do not think I am, that would rank as a class of coal being supplied for that, purpose, and the minimum prices are fixed for various classes of coal, and classes are defined as related to destination as well as to qualities of coal and the rest. I should think that that is the protection, and that in point of fact there will be no desire to discriminate in that way; but even if there were, there is the right of
  1210
  appeal, as I have already pointed out, through these committees of investigation, and there is the further right to arbitration. That is the situation as I understand it under that part of the hon. and gallant Member's case.
  Commodore KING: Before the right hon. Gentleman finishes, may I put to him this point? He said that coal can be put in a class as to the direction in which it is going to be used, but that is our whole point. What we are afraid of is that coal for public utility companies manufacturing gas would be put in a class of destination, and that the price would be put up as against that class to a higher figure than in the case of coal sold to other colliery undertakings engaged in making gas.
  Mr. GRAHAM: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has raised the wider issue. It is perfectly true that coal would be classified under this Bill as regards destination, but it does not follow that there will be any abuse as regards price in connection with a practice of this kind, and I do not anticipate any difficulty as regards undertakings competing in various classes of products in the manufacture of which the colliery undertakings are themselves engaged. They have their rights of recourse to the committee of investigation, and beyond that to arbitration, both on the narrower specific point and on the wider question of the public utility undertaking. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) raised what is in reality the whole question. He quoted a resolution of the Town Council of Edinburgh, no doubt for the purpose of terrifying me, as an Edinburgh representative and as a former member of that corporation who is familiar with its views. That resolution, however, was in what I suppose the lawyers would call common form. It arrived from all parts of the country, and I think it is based upon an attack on the whole question of regulation.
  I have discussed this matter with leading representatives of the industry. They press their views very strongly, as they are entitled to do, but I do not think they would dispute the validity of coal getting an economic price, and, if that desire is fulfilled, the public utilities are only brought into line with every other class of demand, and they are not

  1211
  prejudiced if the industry chooses, by its organisation, to get a proper price for its coal. The right hon. Gentleman used the words discriminating against public utility undertakings. There is no discrimination against them in the Bill. There is no discrimination against anyone. All we have in view is an economic price for the commodity. If there is not an economic price for the commodity, there is very grave discrimination against the coal industry, and it is that form of adverse discrimination which we seek to remove by the Bill. I suggest that the safeguards are already complete and, for these reasons, I could not incorporate the Amendment into the Measure.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to prevent discrimination? He says the Bill does not enable discrimination to take place, but does he intend to prevent it? I do not mean discrimination against a colliery, but is there to be one price for one group of undertakings and a different price for another for the same coal? Is that possible?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman has been present, but under the Bill coal can be classified by grade and destination and all the rest. All that is provided in the legislation.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question whether discrimination is intended to be prevented by the Bill?
  Mr. GRAHAM: In the sense of unfair discrimination certainly, yes, but hon. Members have really pushed beyond that point. Elsewhere, the argument has been used that there is a discrimination against public utilities.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: There may be.
  Mr. GRAHAM: Of course, under any scheme there may be discrimination, but machinery exists for dealing with that if it is practised. All I have ever admitted regarding the purpose of the Bill is the desire to get an economic price for coal as regards public utility enterprise. Nothing more than that is intended. If that shades into discrimination in the sense of abuse, machinery for dealing with it comes into play.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the scheme provides that? When he approves a scheme, will he make a declaration in the scheme that there shall not be the unfair discrimination of which we are afraid?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot make declarations in the various schemes, but this I can do, that in the approval of schemes, which are matters of enormous detail, as the right hon. Gentleman must be aware, by the Board of Trade we shall do everything in our power to see that every device is provided against discrimination. That is our whole desire, and it is the desire of the industry itself, because it is the last of its intentions to be constantly before the committee of investigation. The very opposite is the desire of the whole industry.
  Dr. BURGIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say it is not intended that a public utility as such shall be asked to pay more for its coal than anyone else?
  Mr. GRAHAM: It is quite impossible for me to say that because a public utility undertaking is expected to pay an economic price for coal.
  Dr. BURGIN: Are not other consumers expected to pay an economic price?
  Mr. GRAHAM: Certainly. An economic price is intended. There is provision for the sale of certain classes of coal at certain rates. To that extent, that is a modification, but, generally speaking, an economic price is the intention of the Bill.
  Dr. BURGIN: The right hon. Gentleman suggests that perhaps I have not been present at some of the Debates. In the Committee stage I had an Amendment raising the point, but, by one of the privileges of the Chair, it was not called. We understand that coal has under some circumstances been sold at an uneconomic price level. No one wishes that to continue. If public utilities or any other users of coal have in fact been procuring their coal at uneconomic prices, no real friend of the coal mining industry would desire that that should continue. What astounds us when we hear the right hon. Gentleman's answer is that apparently it is intended, not merely

  1213
  to have an economic price level for all users, but that there should be reserved some power to weight the dice as against public utilities. We shall be very relieved when the right hon. Gentleman in clear terms tells us there is no desire to retain power in the Bill somewhere to charge public utilities more for their coal. When that question is clearly answered in the negative many of our fears, which are genuinely and widely held, will disappear.
  Mr. C. WILLIAMS: As far as I can understand, the right hon. Gentleman is afraid of the Amendment for this reason. The Movers maintain that it is quite possible that, under the Bill as it stands, there will be two prices for gas coal. There will be the one price for the actual mineowners who can make gas or make coke, and there will be another price at which these same coalowners will sell coal either to public utility or to other gas companies for the purpose of making coal gas. The right hon. Gentleman says that is not so. The Amendment lays down perfectly clearly that there should not be two prices but that coal sold for the purpose of making it into gas of the same nature and grade as supplied to gas undertakings should be supplied at the same price. All the Amendment does is to lay down what the right hon. Gentleman maintains is already in the Bill. I am not concerned whether they are private gas companies or public utility companies. The whole thing remains for any manufacturer of gas, whether it is a private company or a public utility company.
  The right hon. Gentleman laid down earlier that, whatever happened, you must have one price for your coal for a particular purpose. As an illustration he said you could not differentiate in the case of a man who actually made his own steel from his own coal without it passing through a middle man. We say that there should be no preference given in the manufacture of gas because it does not go through a middleman. That is of real importance. There is no complication about it, and there is no sort of superfluity of words about it. It does not hurt the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman has been able to find no fault in it in reality. I should have thought that in these particular cases it would do no harm to the Bill to put in two or three lines which would explain and make
  1214
  one part of it clear. After all, there is no particular reason why, like the curate's egg, this Bill should not have one little bit of good in it. It is pretty rotten; why not have this one Amendment included?
  Mr. CULVERWELL: I should not have risen at all to take part in the Debate were it not that I was asked to do so by the Corporation of Bristol. I feel still mare urged to say a few words by the very unsatisfactory replies which the President of the Board of Trade has given as to discrimination against a public utility company. I have a letter from the Corporation of Bristol which, having referred to the fear that there will be unfair discrimination as regards the price of coal as against gas and electricity undertakings, goes on:
  "As owners of a large electricity undertaking the Bristol Corporation would be averse to any such discrimination and, therefore, I should be glad if you would consider whether you could support an Amendment to prevent that."
  The right hon. Gentleman certainly has not allayed the fears on this side that there is going to be a set made against such public utility companies. There is one reason why it is possible that there will be a set against them, and that is that the effects of any increase in the price of coal on public utility companies will not be followed directly by the closing down of the industry but can be directly passed on to the consumer. The effects will only gradually percolate through and affect the community as a whole, whereas, if the right hon. Gentleman increases the price of coal to commercial undertakings, the cost of production will immediately rise and the effect will be felt in the result it will have in competition. If the right hon. Gentleman applies it only to public utility concerns, the effects will be immediately recouped by the concern itself from the consumer, and its ultimate effects will be very gradual and will not be immediately noticed. I do urge upon him, in view of the fears aroused by several statements he made in the earlier stages of the Bill and by his suggestion that public utility companies have been getting coal on the cheap in the past and that he is determined that in the future they shall be made to pay a bigger price, that he should do something

  1215
  to allay these fears—he certainly has done nothing in response to the appeals of my hon. Friends below the Gangway, to allay the fears that there will be discrimination against public utility companies—and to assure us that there will be no attempt to recoup the losses of the coal industry out of the consumers of gas and electricity in the country as a whole.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I should be very sorry if there was a slight misunderstanding of the point having regard to the great importance of these public utility undertakings. There is no question at all of a set being made against them. They are far more powerful organisations than the coal industry and to make a set against them would be quite impossible. In reply to the hon. Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin), I made it perfectly clear that the only object, as far as I understood it, was to get an economic price for coal, and there is no question of discrimination. As regards an economic price, the hon. Gentleman agrees with me, and, if that is the state of affairs, the, matter should be cleared.
  Mr. DAGGAR: I should not have intervened were it not for the statements made by Members on the benches opposite. I want to endeavour to prove that, if the passing of the Bill ultimately increases the price of coal to those persons engaged either in gas production or electricity, those industries are in a position to pay whatever slight increase there may be in the price of the coal now being supplied to them.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This Amendment does not deal with the application of the increased price of coal generally. It deals with a suggested discrimination of price as regards the supply of coal to gas companies for the production of gas.
  Mr. DAGGAR: I am endeavouring to prove to the House that the condition of the industries to which reference is made is not such a poor one as compared with the mining industry.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That point does not arise on this matter. The point raised is the supposed discrimination in price to gas undertakings.
  Mr. DAGGAR: I want to refer to the statement made by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown).
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman must take my Ruling, and, if he is going to deal with the increased price, it must be strictly upon the Amendment before the House.
  Mr. McKINLAY: If it was in order for an hon. Member to suggest what will be the effeot on particular commodities, is my hon. Friend not in order now?
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It was impossible for me, until I heard the word "electricity" introduced, to know that there was any suggestion of a general application to public utility companies. This Amendment deals specifically with the production of gas, or, in the word of the Amendment, carbonisation, or gasification, and consequently it does not apply to utility companies outside the scope of the Amendment.
  Mr. DAGGAR: The hon. Member ended with a quotation of what was said by Mr. A. W. Archer.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Yes, the hon. Member used that quotation as leading up to the point under discussion. The conclusion of the quotation was in direct reference to the point under discussion.
  Mr. DAGGAR: I am submitting that there was another point in the speech which destroyed the case that the hon. Member endeavoured to put to the House. The person to whom he referred also made this statement:
  "According to the Board of Trade figures relating to all authorised gas undertakings in Great Britain for the year 1928, the profit on revenue account for the rear, exceeded £7,000,000 and for the year 1928–29—"
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is not the point under discussion.
  I have already told the hon. Member that the point is the discrimination in the price of coal to gas undertakings.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 202; Noes, 268.

  Division No. 243.]

  AYES.

  [9.36 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Albery, Irving James

  Ferguson, Sir John

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Llverp'l.,W.)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

  Fielden, E. B.

  O'Neill, Sir H.

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

  Fison, F. G. Clavering

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Peaks, Capt. Osbert

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Gaibraith, J. F. W.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Atkinson, C.

  Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Grace, John

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Balniel, Lord

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Granville, E.

  Remer, John R.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

  Berry, Sir George

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James

  Betterton, Sir Henry B.

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Surly, Ch'ts'y)

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Bird, Ernest Roy

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Ross, Major Ronald D.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-colonel E. A.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Russell, Alexander West(Tynemouth)

  Bracken, B.

  Hanbury, C.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Harbord, A.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Savery, S. S.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newby)

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Buchan, John

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Butler, R. A.

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Castle Stewart, Earl of

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Southby, Commander A. R. J.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W.)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

  Christie, J. A.

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Thomson, Sir F.

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Colville, Major D. J.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Todd, Capt. A. J.

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

  Train, J.

  Cranbourne, Viscount

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

  Llewellin, Major J. J.

  Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

  Locker-Lampoon, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Long, Major Eric

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Wells, Sydney R.

  Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

  MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. {Hertford)

  Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Marjoribanks, E. C.

  Withers, Sir John James

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Meller, R. J.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Dixey, A. C.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Duckworth, G. A. V.

  Mond, Hon. Henry

  Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)

  Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

  Eden,

  Captain Anthony

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Captain Margesson and Sir George

  England, Colonel A.

  Muirhead, A. J.

  Penny.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Barnes, Alfred John

  Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

  Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Barr, James

  Bowen, J. W.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Batey, Joseph

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Angell, Norman

  Bellamy, Albert

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Arnott, John

  Bennett, Captain E.N.(Cardiff,Central)

  Bromfield, William

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Bennett, William {Battersea, South)

  Bromley, J.

  Ayles, Walter

  Benson, G.

  Brooke, W.

  1218

  1219

  Brothers, M.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Kinley, J.

  Romeril, H. G.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Rosbotham, D. S. T

  Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Knight, Holford

  Rowson, Guy

  Buchanan, G.

  Lang, Gordon

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Burgess, F. G.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Lathan, G.

  Sanders, W. S.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Sandham, E.

  Calne, Derwent Hall-

  Law, A. (Rossendale)

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Cameron, A. G.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Scurr, John

  Cape, Thomas

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Sexton, James

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Lawson, John James

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Chater, Daniel

  Leach, W.

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Church, Major A. G.

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

  Shield, George William

  Clarke, J. S.

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lees, J.

  Shillaker, J. F.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Shinwell, E.

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Compton, Joseph

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Simmons, C. J.

  Cove, William G.

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Sinkinson, George

  Daggar, George

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Dallas, George

  Longden, F.

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lowth, Thomas

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Day, Harry

  Lunn, William

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Dickson, T.

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

  Dukes, C.

  McElwee, A.

  Snell, Harry

  Duncan, Charles

  McEntee, V. L.

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Ede, James Chuter

  Mackinder, W.

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Edmunds, J. E.

  McKinlay, A.

  Sorensen, R.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Egan, W. H

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  McShane, John James

  Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

  Freeman, Peter

  Mansfield, W.

  Strauss, G. R.

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  March, S.

  Sullivan, J.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Marcus, M.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

  Markham, S. F.

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Gill, T. H.

  Marley, J.

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  Gillett, George M.

  Marshall, Fred

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Gossling, A. G.

  Mathers, George

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

  Gould, F.

  Matters, L. W.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Melville, Sir James

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin.,Cent.)

  Messer, Fred

  Toole, Joseph

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).

  Middleton, G.

  Tout, W. J.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Mills. J. E.

  Townend, A. E.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Montague, Frederick

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Turner, B.

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Morley, Ralph

  Vaughan, D. J.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Viant, S. P.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Mort, D. L.

  Walkden, A. G.

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Walker, J.

  Hardie, George D.

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Wallace, H. W.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Wallhead, Ritaard C.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Muff, G.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Haycock, A. W.

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Murnin, Hugh

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Welsh, James (Paisley)

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Herriotts, J.

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  West, F. R.

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Palin, John Henry

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Paling, Wilfrid

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Palmer, E. T.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Hollins, A.

  Perry, S. F.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Phillips, Dr. Marion

  Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Pole, Major D. G.

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  Isaacs, George

  Potts, John S.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Price, M. P.

  Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  Wise, E. F.

  Johnston, Thomas

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Raynes, W. R.

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Richards, R.

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. William

  Kelly, W. T.

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Whiteley.

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Ritson, J.

  This Amendment is purely drafting and consequential on an Amendment moved earlier.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Major G. DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 8, line 18, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(o) for requiring the executive board to consider forthwith at any time any request made by the owner of a coal mine in the district for the reduction of the minimum price fixed for any class of coal in that district."
  This Amendment is on similar lines to the Amendment which appears on the Order Paper earlier—in Clause 2, page 4, line 45, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(j) for requiring the council to consider any request made to it at any time by an executive board for a district for the increase of the district allocation of all districts or of any district."
  In that case we were considering the Central Board and the question of the right of representation upon a district council in the case of anyone being dissatisfied with the allocation of the quota, and desiring that it should be altered. The present Amendment seeks to provide that where the owner of a coal mine in a district is dissatisfied with the fixation of a minimum price, he may make application to the Board to consider forthwith the reduction of the minimum price. The District Board having decided to fix the minimum price, it is not outside the bounds of possibility, indeed it is probable, that a situation may arise somewhat suddenly, and without any preparation, in which the fixation of that minimum price is acting detrimentally to the best interests of the mines in the district, and certainly in the view of one or more owners.
  The Amendment seeks to give to the owners the right to bring forward and to argue their case as to the desirability of altering the fixed minimum. We have heard on more than one occasion during the Report stage and during the previous stages of the Bill that circumstances were not unlikely to arise in which the minimum prices had been fixed to operate for a fixed period, say, six months, and after two or three months they might be found to be inoperative or inapplicable, because certain other conditions had meanwhile altered. The Bill provides no facilities for the owner who is dissatisfied with a situation like that,
  1222
  although he may perhaps find that, on account of the cast-iron fixation of price, he is unable to get a contract, and his failure to do so will re-act detrimentally to the employés. Therefore, we wish to give him the quickest channel of communication with the Executive Board which has fixed the minimum price, so that he may have his case argued.
  Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will accept this Amendment. We hope that there will be a good many coal-owners with sufficiently patriotic ideas to take advantage of the Amendment. If the President of the Board of Trade does not accept the Amendment, it will mean that the coalowners will not have the power if they so wish to go to the council and say that they wish the prices to be reduced. It is essential that whenever necessary the prices should be reduced. The cotton trade will be very much affected and as I take a great interest in the cotton trade I am anxious that everything possible should be done to keep down the price of coal, it is the motive power of the cotton industry and other industries. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment so that the coalowner can come forward and say, "I am making a big profit and I should like to get the prices down so that—[Interruption]. Yes, the coalowners are trying to bleed the rest of the country, of the profit that is made, the miners will receive 88 per cent. and the coalowners 13 per cent, while on the other hand the cotton people are in a very much worse state than the coalowners or coal miners have ever been. Why are the people who run iron and steel and cotton and other textile industries to be detrimentally affected. They will be able to say to those who voted for this Bill, "We sent you to Parliament and you have put up the price of coal to make our employment less certain."
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I hope to be able to satisfy the two hon. Members who have moved and seconded the Amendment, and also the House, that this Amendment is unnecessary, and that what the hon. Members have in mind is already covered. In the Clause which lays down the minimum price fixing, provision is made for meet-

  1223
  ing the situation which has been pointed out, and I have not the least doubt that the district schemes will provide the machinery which can act immediately where there is any question of a contract or prices being involved. My hon. Friends suggest that it should be specified in the Bill that it is the duty of the Executive Board in any district, under a district scheme, to consider a request by an owner for the reduction of the minimum price. That is plainly part of their duty at the present time. When the scheme comes into force, any owner will be able to make immediate application for reconsideration of the minimum price schedule. No doubt there would often be agreement within the district on the subject, but if the Executive took the view that the minimum price for that class of coal could not be reduced and that the circumstances did not necessitate that, or that it would be unfair to the industry, they would resist the suggested reduction, and the matter would then go to arbitration.
  In normal cases of the kind that the hon. Members opposite have in mind there will be full provision in the schemes for immediate action. It seems to be suggested that these rates would be for certain periods and could not readily be altered. I cannot pledge myself or the Government to the details of every district scheme, but I can say, with perfect safety, that the owners are going to use all the elasticity that they have at the present time for the purpose of conducting this business. The object is not to sell less coal but to sell more coal, if we possibly can. There will be in the district schemes provision for meeting the kind of difficulty that has been suggested. The words of the Amendment are unnecessary. I am advised that it is undesirable to add unnecessary words to an Act of Parliament, because they lead to difficulties in other directions which are already complicated.
  Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I hope that my hon. Friends will press the Amendment. We have had an answer from the President of the Board of Trade which I do not think is satisfactory. He says that the Amendment is unnecessary within the terms of the Clause, because there will be quick consideration of these cases. That is not so. Under the price-fixing Clause there are these words:
  1224
  "(f) For the determination at such time and for such periods as may ho decided in accordance with the provisions of the scheme of the price below which every class of coal produced in the district may not be sold or supplied."
  What happens under that paragraph? The minimum prices are fixed for a period of time. Very soon afterwards, some owner, more efficient than his neighbours, more far-sighted, and more keen to do an expanding business, says, "I can sell more cheaply and increase my output, and I want to have this minimum price reviewed." What right has he got? He has no right under paragraph (f) as it stands, because this minimum price is to hold for whatever period the district board have fixed. When the right hon. Gentleman says he can go ro arbitration if they do not agree, how long will that take? That is altogether the wrong spirit. You do not want to put an efficient coalowner in the position of having to fight long arbitrations against the others. What you want to get in this scheme is very quick-working elasticity, by which the proposal of an efficient coalowner will receive immediate consideration. There is no guarantee, under the Bill as it stands, that it will receive such consideration.
  The only other argument that the President of the Board of Trade advances is that the district schemes will give some measure of elasticity. How do we know? We moved an Amendment in Committee that these district schemes should come before the House, and that we should consider them, but we are not going to have that opportunity. They are going to be approved by the President of the Board of Trade, and, therefore, I think it is absolutely essential, as we are committed to price-fixing, unfortunately, that we should get whatever avenue of relief can be opened to the efficient coal-owner to get a quick determination in his favour of any attempt that he may make to sell a little more cheaply instead of a great deal more dearly.
  Mr. REID: May I make a suggestion to the President of the Board of Trade? On a number of occasions we have been assured by the right hon. Gentleman that these matters would be dealt with by the schemes, but we do not know what those schemes are. We are really handing over this legislation to a committee of the coalowners, tempered by the

  1225
  Board of Trade, and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should, in a Schedule to the Bill, set out the terms of some model schemes. He shakes his head, but he has before him a number of schemes, and he could put in a Schedule to the Bill a model scheme or two. There could be provision for allowing some variations on the authority of some body nominated, say, by the Lord Chief Justice—some absolutely independent body.
  I suggest to hon. Members opposite who are interested in trades other than the coal trade that the time has really come to insist on having some control over the price of coal in this country, because, as I say, the matter is being handed over to price-fixing rings of coalowners under no control except that
  of the Board of Trade, and if we may judge by the lack of success with which our attempts to amend this Bill are met, the President of the Board of Trade is very much in the hands of the coalowners. I suggest, therefore, that the proper course is that, as many other Bills embody specimens of schemes intended to be carried out, there is no difficulty whatever in the right hon. Gentleman setting out in this Bill one or two model schemes and letting us see what the proportions are going to be, with some provision for variations when they are necessary, and so forth.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 268.

  Division No. 244.]

  AYES.

  [10.0 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Croom-Jahnson, R. P.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Albery, Irving James

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l.,W.)

  Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)

  Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.

  Aske, Sir Robert

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)

  Atkinson, C.

  Dixey, A. C.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.

  Duckworth, G. A. V.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)

  Dugdale, Capt. T. L.

  Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Llewellin, Major J. J.

  Balniel, Lord

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  England, Colonel A.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Beaumont, M. W.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)

  Long, Major Eric

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

  Betterton, Sir Henry B.

  Ferguson, Sir John

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Fielden, E. B.

  MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M.

  Bird, Ernest Roy

  Fison, F. G. Clavering

  Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Making, Brigadler-General E.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Marjoribanks, E. C.

  Bracken, B.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)

  Meller, R. J.

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Grace, John

  Moore, Lleut,-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)

  Buchan, John

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Muirhead, A. J.

  Butler, R. A.

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Castle Stewart, Earl of

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  O'Neill, Sir H.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Peake, Capt. Osbert

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Hanbury, C.

  Pliditch, Sir Philip

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Harbord, A.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Christie, J. A.

  Hartington,

  Marquess of Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Ramsbotham, H.

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel

  Arthur P. Reid, David D. (County Down)

  Colville, Major D. J.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Remer, John R.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.

  Cranbourne, Viscount

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Reynolds, Col. Sir James

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

  Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Gainsbro)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Ross, Major Ronald D.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South)

  Wells, Sydney R.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.- Colonel George

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.

  Thomson, Sir F.

  Withers, Sir John James

  Savery, S. S.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Womersley, W. J.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Todd, Capt. A. J.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Train, J.

  Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)

  Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Southby, Commander A. R. J.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Captain Margessor and Sir George

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.

  Penny.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Freeman, Peter

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)

  Longden, F.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Gill, T. H.

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Angell, Norman

  Gillett, George M.

  Lowth, Thomas

  Arnott, John

  Gossling, A. G.

  Lunn, William

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Gould, F.

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Ayles, Walter

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  McElwee, A.

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

  McEntee, V. L.

  Barnes, Alfred John

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Mackinder, W.

  Barr, James

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  McKinlay, A.

  Batey, Joseph

  Groves, Thomas E.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Bellamy, Albert

  Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton)

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Bennett, Captain E.N.(Cardiff,Central)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  McShane, John James

  Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  Mansfield, W.

  Benson, G.

  Hardle, George D.

  March, S.

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Marcus, M.

  Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  Markham, S. F.

  Bondfleld, Rt. Hon. Margaret

  Haycock, A. W.

  Marley, J.

  Bowen, J. W.

  Mayday, Arthur

  Marshall, Fred

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Mathers, George

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Matters, L. W.

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

  Melville, Sir James

  Bromfield, William

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Messer, Fred

  Bromley, J.

  Herriotts, J.

  Middleton, G.

  Brooke, W.

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Mills. J. E.

  Brothers, M.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Montague, Frederick

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Hollins, A.

  Morley, Ralph

  Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Buchanan, G.

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Mort, D. L.

  Burgess, F. G.

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Isaacs, George

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Calne, Derwent Hall

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Muff, G.

  Cameron, A. G.

  Johnston, Thomas

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Murnin, Hugh

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Chater, Daniel

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Church, Major A. G.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Clarke, J. S.

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Palin, John Henry

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Kinley, J.

  Paling, Wilfrid

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Kirkwood, D.

  Palmer, E. T.

  Compton, Joseph

  Knight, Holford

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Cove, William G.

  Lang, Gordon

  Perry, S. F.

  Daggar, George

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Dallas, George

  Lathan, G.

  Phillips, Dr. Marlon

  Dalton, Hugh

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Picton-Turbervill, Edith

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Law, A. (Rosendale)

  Pole, Major D. G.

  Day, Harry

  Lawrence, Susan

  Potts, John S.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Price, M. P.

  Dickson, T.

  Lawson, John James

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  Dukes, C.

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Duncan, Charles

  Leach, W.

  Raynes, W. R.

  Ede, James Chuter

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)

  Richards, R.

  Edmunds, J. E.

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  Lees, J.

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Egan, W. H.

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  1228

  1229

  Ritson, J.

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Wallace, H. W.

  Roberts, Rt.Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

  Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Romeril, H. G.

  Snell, Harry

  Watkins, F. C.

  Rosbotham, D. S. T.

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline).

  Rowson, Guy

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Sorensen, R.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Sanders, W. S.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Welsh, James (Paisley)

  Sandham, E.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Strachey, E. J. St. Loe

  West, F. A.

  Scurr, John

  Strauss, G. R.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Sexton, James

  Sullivan, J.

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Sutton, J. E.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Shield, George William

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  Shillaker, J. F.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Shinwell, E.

  Toole, Joseph

  Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Tout, W. J.

  Wise, E. F.

  Simmons, C. J.

  Townend, A. E.

  Wright, W. (Rotherglen)

  Sinkinson, George

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Turner, B.

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Vaughan, D. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  Viant, S. P.

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Walkden, A. G.

  William Whiteley.

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Walker, J.

  The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. WISE and other hon. Members: In page 8, line 18, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(o) For the collection by the executive board from the owners of coal mines in the district of levies imposed upon them at such times and for such periods as the executive board thinks fit in proportion to the output or disposal of their respective coal mines in the district or to the profits arising from the ownership of their respective coal mines in the district for the purpose of compensating mineworkers who may temporarily or permanently be deprived of their employment by reason of the closing down of coal mines in the district on account of the operation of this Act, or of contributing to a fund for the provision of pensions at the age of sixty for which such mineworkers are eligible."
  Mr. SPEAKER: With regard to the Amendment on the Paper standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Leicester (Mr. Wise), I have considerable doubt in my mind as to whether it is within the scope of the Bill. I have definitely decided that, at any rate, the last two lines from the word "Act" are entirely outside the scope of the Bill, but I am prepared to allow the hon. Member to put his case as regards the first portion of the Amendment down to the word "or" in line 8, and I must judge as he proceeds whether that is within the scope of the Bill.
  Mr. WISE: I beg to move, in page 8, line 18, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(o) For the collection by the executive board from the owners of coal mines in the district of levies imposed upon them at such times and for such periods as the executive
  1230
  board thinks fit in proportion to the output or disposal of their respective coal mines in the district or to the profits arising from the ownership of their respective coal mines in the district for the purpose of compensating mineworkers who may temporarily or permanently be deprived of their employment by reason of the closing down of coal mines in the district on account of the operation of this Act."
  I am obliged, Mr. Speaker, for your assistance in the matter. This Amendment follows the lines of an Amendment put down on the Committee stage which was ruled out of order for very much the same reason, namely, that it was outside the scope of the Bill. But the Amendment has now been re-drafted so as to bring it within the scope of the Bill, and I hope you will find that it satisfies your requirements. It proposes to repair a remarkable and notable omission in the general structure of this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to reorganise and rationalise the coal industry. The quota Clauses were justified to us on the ground that they would work because in the case of big firms the quota would be used for the more efficient mines, and that the other mines would be closed down. In the case of a small firm it was claimed, and it was not disputed, that its effect would be that they would sell their quotas to the largest firms and close down. To make assurance doubly sure, at a later stage of the Bill a whole series of Clauses was introduced, on the initiative of the party below the Gangway, for securing, by direct pressure, the amalgamations of mines for exactly that purpose. The

  1231
  whole intention of the amalgamation Clauses is to make it possible more efficiently, and as quickly as possible, to close down the inefficient mine. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) said that the economies were very difficult, if not impossible, in the matter of production, unless you closed the pits.
  Everyone is aware that the effect of that must be to put thousands of men out of work deliberately in order to make the industry more efficient, and in order to make the industry more profitable to the coalowners. Indeed, it would be fair to say that the whole scheme of the Bill is a bribe to force the coalowners to rationalise their industry. I do not want to argue the rights or the wrongs of rationalisation. There is no doubt at all that there are many industries in this country which require reorganisation and rationalisation, but it is an entirely new principle in legislation that such a process should be deliberately forced by the will of this House. We on these benches say that if the House adopts that principle, and I think it will have to do it in the case of other industries, the House must take the responsibility for some of the effects of that on the men who will suffer immediately, perhaps permanently, by that process. How can you expect trade unionists and workers generally in the mining industry, and in other districts and industries if it be extended, to co-operate in a process whose direct purpose is to put the employers in a position to make larger profits and to throw the whole burden of that process on the unfortunate workers, generally the older workers, who will thereby be squeezed out of industry?
  The view that it is desirable, not only in human interests, but in the interests of the general public, honestly to make special provision for such men is no new one. The Secretary for Mines, I am sure, is familiar with this particular problem, which was discussed at great length in the conference with which his name and that of Lord Melchett are now associated. That conference, representing leading trade unionists and leading progressive employers of labour, came to the conclusion that rationalisation in the circumstances of the country was necessary, that it should be carried on in consultation with the trade unions,
  1232
  and that special provision should be made for the immediate victims of rationalisation. In their report, published last year, that conference recommended that just as firms make provision by special reserve funds for depreciation of plant and the provision of new machinery in case it is necessary to change the organisation and equipment of their industry, in the same way they should make provision by a special reserve fund, a labour reserve fund, for compensating those workers who may be forced out of employment by schemes of reorganisation.
  That was the proposal put forward and agreed to unanimously by both sides in that conference, and when employers themselves are prepared to agree to that principle it is difficult for this House and this Government, a Labour Government, to refuse to agree to so reasonable, so human, and so sound a principle from the general economic point of view, and from the point of view of getting these great changes in industry, which we all admit must be made, being made with the least possible disturbance and the greatest measure of good will. Moreover, in some industries by some employers the principle has already been put into operation. In the Committee stage of this Bill the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. T. Smith). in a very interesting and notable speech, drew attention to this point and told us of firms in Yorkshire that had already done it. In the flour milling industry, in which the process of rationalisation had been undertaken within the last few months, the flour milling employers have definitely set aside a fund for this precise purpose, and, as a matter of fact, in the profession with which I am familiar, and with which right hon. Members on the Front Bench are familiar, the Civil Service, whenever a civil servant is deprived of his post because of reorganisation, or for any other reason which makes his post redundant, he is entitled under a Treasury Minute and under the Superannuation Act to special compensation for loss of office.
  In the Mining Industry Act of 1927 there are a whole series of Clauses providing compensation for debenture holders and bond holders of every kind of stock in case of amalgamation, and visualising what we know always takes place in such

  1233
  circumstances, the provision of compensation for directors and managers and other higher officials of companies who may be deprived of their posts. This is no new conception. It is a mere extension to the actual workers of a principle which has long been recognised in the professions and in regard to the higher paid hierarchy of industry. We feel that it is reasonable and proper that this principle should be embodied in the Bill. It may be said that the words we have drafted do not cover the point adequately. We are not bound to these words, and if the Attorney-General or the President of the Board of Trade prefer others we are perfectly prepared to agree to them if the principle is accepted.
  It may be said that we are differentiating between workers who are deprived of their employment by the operation of this Bill and workers who have been out of work for a long time on account of other reasons. In this Bill we can only deal with the workers who are rendered unemployed by the Bill. We wish we could deal on similar lines with the whole problem, and if we require the mine-owners in setting up schemes under this Clause, which have to be approved by the Board of Trade, to make provision for workers who will be squeezed out they may come to the conclusion, I hope they will, in consultation with the miners' trade unions that the right course would be to make a much more comprehensive scheme on the lines of a pension scheme contemplated in words which cannot be inserted in the Bill, but which would be well within the power of the mineowners, under which the situation might be relieved by an earlier pension for workmen who are squeezed out of industry at the age of 60 or upwards. If it cannot be done, if the President of the Board of Trade tells me that he has such and such an arrangement with the mineowners, and that it would be impossible to go back on the arrangement which he has made—though he has made very many changes in these arrangements during the proceedings on the Bill—at any rate, perhaps he can carry this matter in mind, or tell us that he has the intention of dealing on a more comprehensive scale with the workers who are squeezed out of industry or who cannot be reabsorbed into industry, by means of a general pensions scheme
  1234
  applying at the age of 60 and over. It is well known to Members of the House that such matters have been under his consideration.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now dealing with that portion of his Amendment which I have definitely ruled out of order.
  Mr. WISE: I was proposing an alternative but of course I entirely defer to your ruling, Sir. My purpose, in moving the Amendment, is to draw attention to a point which seems to me of fundamental importance, not only in connection with this Bill, but in connection with other proposals which will come before the House. We on this side are constantly urging that if rationalisation is to proceed, it must proceed on lines which carry goodwill to the workers, and which give fair protection and proper safeguards to the workers' interests. All the more is that important when rationalisation is started is accelerated or is enforced by Act of Parliament, and all the more important when the responsibility for it rests on a Labour Government.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
  As the Mover has pointed out, we have spent a considerable time discussing the problem of industrial rationalisation, but, as far as I know, this is the first Amendment which has raised the question of the proper treatment of the workers affected by that process. I read with considerable interest the other day, speeches delivered by hon. Friends of mine who sit on this side of the House, in which they pleaded eloquently that the claims of the workers should receive primary consideration in connection with a problem of this kind. This afternoon we have been discussing the effect of this Bill on the owners, and, in the course of the discussions on the Bill since it was introduced, various Amendments have been urged on the Government with the object of seeing that the displaced owners are provided for adequately.
  We had a very learned discussion this afternoon which had as its object the safeguarding of utility societies under the operations of this Measure when it becomes an Act of Parliament; and, on other occasions, we have had attempts

  1235
  to safeguard the interests of exporters under this legislation. But, somehow or other, as far as I can remember, we have not had a single discussion, having as its object the protection of the displaced workers. Why should that be? We have been told in the public Press and in public speeches that Britain is to be saved by this policy of industrial rationalisation. Why should it be the workers to whom we should address the advice that the process must necessarily be favourable—like the dentist's operation, I suppose—but that when it is over, the condition will be much happier than it would have been without the operation.
  The only way in which this process can be made less painful to the worker is to see that the worker is adequately compensated for the loss which he personally suffers through the operation of the system that is being applied to industry. There is no use in merely saying that the worker should not be the only person to suffer. The worker is bound to suffer unless it is arranged that he should earn more money. Generalities and sentiments carry the working-class no further. Provision must be made for these workers to have sympathy expressed in hard cash. I remember a question addressed on this subject to the Prime Minister, and the reply was in words to the effect that they would have the benefits of ordinary social insurance. I submit, with all due respect to my leader, that that does not meet the case at all. The ordinary social insurance was designed to deal with temporary unemployment in industry, but we are legislating for mass unemployment.
  I could take hon. Members to districts in South Wales and elsewhere, where it is not a case of 10, 20 or 30 per cent. of the workers being thrown out and maintained by the insurance fund to which the remainder and the owners and the State would continue to subscribe, but a case where whole districts will be closed down. If that is not so, then the Debates that have taken place in this House have had no meaning, no knowledge, and no effect. That being the case, we meet with the situation that we and we only have created. There is no use in saying that we see a good time corning over the hills in the districts in South Wales. What we are dealing with here is not a period of temporary illness, but a state of seni-
  1236
  lity, for just the state in industry that a man is in when he is between 70 and 80 years of age. We are arranging for a funeral in many of the colliery districts. The ordinary social insurance does not apply to it.
  Just think what it means. Whole families will be rooted up from localities in which probably they have resided for generations. There will be not merely the displaced miner, but his children who are partially educated and who may have to go hundreds of miles before they can be replaced comfortably in industry. It means an enormous expenditure for these poor people, and the very districts which will be most badly hit by the operation. of this policy of industrial rationalisation are those which have been necessitous areas for the past eight or nine years. Therefore, are we asking anything unreasonable, particularly from a Labour Government, when we ask that the working class should have their case considered here in the same spirit that would be applied to an equal number of men if they belonged to the middle and upper classes? We are not asking for anything unreasonable, and therefore I hope we shall get from all parts of the House, and particularly from this side of the House, an expression of our opinion, in no uncertain voice, that industrial rationalisation should not be made a painful process for the workers, but that the State, wanting to bring about this new condition in industry, should be prepared to pay the displaced workers for the sufferings they must undergo.
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is impossible for anyone familiar with the circumstances of this industry not to sympathise with the object which my hon. Friends have in view. The broad facets are that during the War very large numbers of men were attracted to the industry, or had to join the industry, and that after the War, and more particularly with the depression that has taken place, 200,000 have lost their employment and, I am bound to say, have little prospect of regaining it, a fact which has been accepted substantially by the Miners' Federation itself and by others familiar with the problem. The Clause on the Paper does not, however, touch the men who have lost their employment in the course of that depression, but is directed to the numbers who will be displaced under these schemes,

  1237
  particularly under the first part of this Bill, which deals with marketing, and also, as I understand, under the amalgamations provided for in a later part of the Bill.
  It is very difficult to say what will be the displacement due to the combination of these circumstances, but I think my right hon. Friend is surely wrong in stating that whole districts will be left derelict, so to speak, because of this Bill. To begin with, if the hours of work are shortened and if we maintain the existing volume of output in the industry there must be a certain addition, even if it is no more than a limited addition, to the numbers employed; but, against that, the conditions regulating output and the compulsory amalgamations will operate on the other side, and it may be that with concentration of the industry into a rather smaller number of producing units a number of men will be displaced permanently so far as coal production is concerned.
  We do not dispute and, indeed, it is everywhere recognised, that in certain industries, and in certain occupations under local authorities, provision has been made, where districts have been amalgamated, for compensation to be paid to those who have lost offices and employment; and with the exclusion of the last two lines of the Clause, it is loss of profits or loss of occupation which is before us in this connection. Neither I nor my hon. Friends deny the hardship, and we yield to no one in our desire to try to avert it as much as possible, but I am bound to point out that I do not think we could do what is asked within the scope of this industry itself. Over a large part of the coalfield to-day the position is not one of prosperity, recovery will be slow and laborious, and there will be immediate charges upon the industry arising out of the better conditions to be provided for working miners; and accordingly, in my view, this problem will have to be dealt with over a larger field, covering not only coal, but other industries, where we could have a much larger source of funds. In other words, the principle of insurance would inevitably have to be applied. In that way I should like to see the problem faced, and, so far, it is under consideration, but I am not in a position to-night to express any view of the Government
  1238
  upon it. I can only say that we recognise what has been said on this point. It is a question which, in our view, ought to be dealt with on more comprehensive lines, and I shall always use what influence I have to that end. I do not think I need to say any more, because this is a question of very great difficulty, and I ask my hon. Friend not to press his Amendment.
  Mr. W. J. BROWN: Those who sit on these benches have heard with a good deal of regret the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just made. We all sympathise with the President in the very great difficulties which this Bill presents, but it is clearly part of the function of Government as a, whole to take full responsibility for the legislation which it introduces, and to see that that legislation is co-ordinated by the Departments. What has the President of the Board of Trade said? Practically he has stated:
  "I am sorry. I sympathise with the problem you are raising, but that problem cannot he dealt with within the terms of this Bill." That in substance is what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but surely he overlooks two important facts when he asks us to accept that explanation. One of those important facts is that the Lord Privy Seal, on behalf of the Government as a whole, has announced in the House that on this subject there is nothing doing in regard to getting old people out of industry. In reply to a question which I put to the Lord Privy Seal, he stated that the Government have found no scheme of pension for aged workers which is acceptable.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think we can discuss the question of pensions on this Amendment.
  Mr. BROWN: I accept your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I would not have referred to that matter except to make it clear that unless we do something in regard to this question under this Amendment, the whole burden of rationalisation will fall exclusively upon the workers. Without desiring to transgress the rules of order, may I mak a passing reference to another statement which reinforces my point? Unless rationalisation is accompanied by a wider distribution of benefits to the workpeople themselves, rationalisation may easily succeed in defeating its own object, because, if the whole burden

  1239
  of rationalisation falls upon the workers either in the form of unemployment or lower wages, then the net result is to decrease the home market for the consumption of the product of that industry, and the whole purpose of rationalisation is defeated.
  We were told by the Minister of Labour in the recent Debate on the Unemployment Insurance Bill that we cannot give unemployment benefit on the scale that some of us would like to see, and the form in which that legislation left this House precludes us from tackling that problem for a period of three years, so that we can do nothing on the basis of improved unemployment insurance. We have already been told that we can do nothing on pensions, and now the President of the Board of Trade says he is very sorry, but we cannot do anything under this Bill. The combination of all these things means that nothing is going to be done—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"] I much appreciate the applause from the other side of the House, but may I say that, when hon. Members opposite had their opportunity of handling the problem on these lines, they no more took it than our people are taking it? What this all comes to is that nothing is to be done under any Government, and that means that the whole burden of rationalisation in this industry is going to fall on the shoulders of the workmen, and of the workmen alone. The position of a Labour Government in dealing with matters of this kind is one of peculiar delicacy, because it is part of our philosophy that unemployment is an integral feature of the capitalist system. It may be that a Labour Government, and especially a minority Labour Government, can be driven by the sheer stress of a political situation to try to make an existing system with which it disagrees function more efficiently than it is now doing. I am not at this stage criticising the line that the Government the taking in that respect—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think we are going beyond the Amendment. We must confine ourselves to what can be done under this Bill.
  Mr. BROWN: I am very sorry if I transgressed, and I have really only one
  1240
  sentence to add, which I think will be completely in order. The very fact that we are driven by economic circumstances to handle the problem on lines that we should not adopt otherwise does make it more imperative from our point of view that, in handling it on those lines, we should try to make adequate provision for the men who are being displaced as a result. We therefore propose to divide on this Amendment, and I hope that we shall carry with us into the Lobby everyone on this side of the House, and, in view of the applause that we had a few moments ago, at least a substantial proportion of those who sit on the other side.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Before we go to a Division, I think it is necessary to say one word. My right hon. Friend has given very weighty reasons why he cannot accept this Amendment, and probably one of the weightiest is that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) said, this is the first time that this question has been discussed during the proceedings on the Bill. It is very late in the day. This Bill is the result of tremendous compromises inside the Cabinet, outside the Cabinet, and with hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, who have been discreetly silent during this Debate, though they are the friends of the miners when an election is on. Although there have been negotiations with the Miners' Federation, none of their recognised leaders' names are attached to this Amendment. There have been negotiations with different groups of mineowners; and now, on the eve of the Bill going to another place, we are asked to insert this radical change in it. My hon. Friends below the Gangway who support the Amendment are putting some of us in a very difficult position.
  The President of the Board of Trade mentioned the case of local authorities when amalgamation takes place. He might have, mentioned the much more analogous case of the amalgamations of the railways in 1920, when there was compensation right through, from the directors to the last joined porter. Every railway worker who was displaced under the Bill got compensation. There is solid ground for complaint that this principle has not been embodied in the Bill, but we know the reasons. The industry

  1241
  is bankrupt. It is being carried by the banks. But I have this suggestion to make. The Bill is limited in time, and we shall in a year or two be able to see what the results of this great Measure are. If the industry has been put on its feet, in a further Bill which is sure to follow this principle might be accepted. You will have seen the effects of displacement and you will have a right to extend the principle of the levy for welfare work to compensation. We must wait for another Bill, perhaps, brought in in another Parliament in which we have a majority.
  Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM: I am sorry that it should be necessary for me to take part in a discussion of this sort. A great deal of nonsense is talked in the House on all sides as to what the miners' position really is. I should like to remind some of the smart men on both sides that it is not going to work out just as they think. If, as is suggested, there are going to be thousands, or probably hundreds of thousands of miners displaced as a consequence of the passing of the Bill, hon. Members opposite need not worry about the export side of the question. If hundreds of thousands of miners are displaced, we shall not be able to produce sufficient coal to satisfy the needs of our own market and you might just leave the question, at least for the time being, of the treatment that the men will require, if and when they are displaced, to those whom they have chosen to represent them, both in the House and on the industrial side of the work. I am particularly sorry that my right hon. Friend the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) should associate himself with the people who are evidently more interested in propaganda which will do damage amongst the miners. He at least knows what the miner's life is.
  We are not completely satisfied with the Bill, but we believe it to be a step in the right direction, and, with all its faults, we are prepared to accept it in the meantime. I have already said that the mining difficulties will not be finished by the passage of this Bill. It may only be the beginning, but, in any case, so far as those who speak for the miners and who are acting on the authority of the miners in each of the districts are
  1242
  concerned, we are prepared to support the Government in putting this Bill on the Statute Book. We want it made an Act of Parliament, and we want the employers to have some common sense in the working of this Bill when it becomes an Act. I am confident that if we would direct our attention, as a House, towards getting rid of the difficulties that stand in the way, instead of putting up more obstacles, we should render greater services to the nation as well as to the miners. I would not have taken part in this discussion at all to-night had it not been for the statement made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. W. Brown), that no matter what the Government might say they were determined to carry this matter to a vote.
  Mr. W. J. BROWN: I never said that. It is perfectly true I announced that we were going to divide on this issue, but I made that announcement after the President of the Board of Trade had spoken, and when it became clear that he had nothing to offer us.
  Mr. GRAHAM: It ought to have been obvious to the hon. Members who are moving this Amendment that the President of the Board of Trade could take no other course than that which he has taken. It is not to be assumed for a moment that we are out of sympathy with the Amendment, but we are here anxious to impress the House with the fact that this Bill is necessary, and we do not want anything to be put in the way of preventing it being put on the Statute Book. While we are anxious that fair treatment should be given to our men along the lines suggested in the Amendment, with which I am in complete agreement, we want the hours shortened in the first place, and that can only be done by this Bill being put on the Statute Book. Even if there were nothing else in it, we want that. If it is to be a fight for wages, we will fight for wages, and if our men are to be unfairly treated, then we will be prepared to use whatever influence and power we have here to see that they have fair play. In the meantime, if my hon. Friends are in favour of the miners' position being improved, then they will be well advised to withdraw the Amendment and not to divide on it, because, as it stands, those of us who are con-

  1243
  sidered to be the representatives of the miners are bound to support the Government in the attitude they will adopt.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 28; Noes, 278.

  Division No. 245.]

  AYES.

  [10.56 p m.

  Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)

  Groves, Thomas E.

  Remer, John R.

  Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Sandham, E.

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Horrabin, J. F.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Train, J.

  Buchanan, G.

  Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Cove, William G.

  Kinley, J.

  Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Dixey, A. C.

  Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Fermoy, Lord

  McShane, John James

  Forgan, Dr. Robert

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Mr. Wise and Mr. Beckett.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Dickson, T.

  Lang, Gordon

  Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

  Dukes, C.

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M.

  Duncan, Charles

  Lathan, G.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')

  Ede, James Chuter

  Law, Albert (Bolton)

  Alpass, J. H.

  Edmunds, J. E.

  Law, A. (Rosendale)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Edwards, E. (Morpeth)

  Lawrence, Susan

  Angell, Norman

  Egan, W. H.

  Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)

  Arnott, John

  England, Colonel A.

  Lawson, John James

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Foot, Isaac,

  Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)

  Aske, Sir Robert

  Freeman, Peter

  Leach, W.

  Atkinson, C.

  Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)

  Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Lees, J.

  Ayles, Walter

  Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley)

  Lewis, T. (Southampton)

  Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Gill, T. H.

  Lindley, Fred W.

  Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)

  Gillett, George M.

  Lloyd, C. Ellis

  Barnes, Alfred John

  Gossling, A. G.

  Locker-Lampson, Com O.(Handsw'th)

  Barr, James

  Gould, F.

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Bellamy, Albert

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Longbottom, A. W.

  Bennett, Capt. B. N. (Cardiff,Central)

  Graham, Rt.Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Lovat-Fraser, J. A.

  Bennett, William (Battersea, South)

  Granville, E.

  Lowth, Thomas

  Benson, G.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Lunn, William

  Bentham, Dr. Ethel

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Blindell, James

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness)

  Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  McElwee, A.

  Bowen, J. W.

  Gulnness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  McEntee, V. L.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Mackinder, W.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  McKinlay, A.

  Broad, Francis Alfred

  Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Bromfield, William

  Hardie, George D.

  Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)

  Bromley, J.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Brooke, W.

  Hastings, Dr. Somerville

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Brothers, M.

  Haycock, A. W.

  Mansfield, W.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd'., Hexham)

  Heyday, Arthur

  March, S.

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Marcus, M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Markham, S. F.

  Burgess, F. G.

  Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)

  Marley, J.

  Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)

  Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)

  Marshall, Fred

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)

  Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Caine, Derwent Hall-

  Herrlotts, J.

  Mathers, George

  Cameron, A. G.

  Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)

  Matters, L. W.

  Cape, Thomas

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Melville, Sir James

  Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Hoffman, P. C.

  Messer, Fred

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hollins, A.

  Middleton, G.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Mills, J. E.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Hopkin, Daniel

  Montague, Frederick

  Chater, Daniel

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Morgan, Dr. H. B.

  Church, Major A. G.

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Morley, Ralph

  Clarke, J. S.

  Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Isaacs, George

  Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Mort, D. L.

  Compton, Joseph

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Moses, J. J. H.

  Daggar, George

  Johnston, Thomas

  Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)

  Dallas, George

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Muff, G.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Muggeridge, H. T.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Murnin, Hugh

  Day, Harry

  Kennedy, Thomas

  Naylor, T. E.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Sanders, W. S.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Noel Baker, P. J.

  Sawyer, G. F.

  Toole, Joseph

  Oldfield, J. R.

  Scurr, John

  Tout, W. J.

  Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)

  Sexton, James

  Townend, A. E.

  Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Trevelyar, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  O'Nelli, Sir H.

  Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome

  Turner, B.

  Palin, John Henry

  Sherwood, G. H.

  Vaughan, D. J.

  Palmer, E. T.

  Shield, George William

  Viant, S. P.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Walker, J.

  Perry, S. F.

  Shillaker, J. F.

  Wallace, H. W.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Shinwell, E.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Phillips, Dr. Marion

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Picton-Tubervill, Edith

  Simmons, C. J.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Pole, Major D. G.

  Sinkinson, George

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Potts, John S.

  Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)

  Welsh, James (Paisley)

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)

  Price, M. P.

  Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)

  White, H. G.

  Quibell, D. F. K.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)

  Ramsay, T. B. Wilson

  Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

  Whiteley, William (Blaydon)

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Raynes, W. R.

  Smith, Tom (Pontefract)

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Richards, R.

  Smith, W. R. (Norwich)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, th'ts'y)

  Snell, Harry

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)

  Wilson, J. (Oldham)

  Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)

  Sorensen, R.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Stamford, Thomas W.

  Winterton, G. E. (Leicester,Loughb'gh)

  Ritson, J.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Strauss, G. R.

  Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)

  Romeril, H. G.

  Sullivan, J.

  Wright, W. (Rutherglen)

  Rosbotham, D. S. T.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Young, R. S. (Islington, North)

  Rowson, Guy

  Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

  Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Paling.

  Ordered, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."—[Mr. W. Graham.]
  Bill, as amended, to be further considered To-morrow.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMMNT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. T. Kennedy.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Seven Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

COAL INDUSTRY.
  COLLIERIES (DE-RATING).
  COLLIERIES (DE-RATING).
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  MINERS' WELFARE FUND.
  MINERS' WELFARE FUND.
  FATAL ACCIDENTS, SOUTH WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE.
  FATAL ACCIDENTS, SOUTH WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE.
  BELGIAN RAILWAYS (CONTRACTS).
  BELGIAN RAILWAYS (CONTRACTS).
  SUBSIDIES.
  SUBSIDIES.
  SPEED-BOATS.
  SPEED-BOATS.
  IRISH LIGHTHOUSE SERVICE.
  IRISH LIGHTHOUSE SERVICE.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  MOTOR TYRE INDUSTRY.
  MOTOR TYRE INDUSTRY.
  MAIZE, IMPORT BOARD, GERMANY.
  MAIZE, IMPORT BOARD, GERMANY.
  CLOCK AND WATCH INDUSTRY.
  CLOCK AND WATCH INDUSTRY.
  CINEMATOGRAPH FILM INDUSTRY.
  CINEMATOGRAPH FILM INDUSTRY.
  GLOVE-MAKING INDUSTRY.
  GLOVE-MAKING INDUSTRY.
  EXPORTS.
  EXPORTS.
  PACKING AND WRAPPING PAPER INDUSTRY.
  PACKING AND WRAPPING PAPER INDUSTRY.
  LACE INDUSTRY.
  LACE INDUSTRY.
  SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT DUTIES (STATISTICS).
  SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT DUTIES (STATISTICS).
POST OFFICE.
  TELEPHONE SUBSCRIBERS (DEPOSIT).
  TELEPHONE SUBSCRIBERS (DEPOSIT).
  OVERSEAS WIRELESS TELEPHONE SERVICES.
  OVERSEAS WIRELESS TELEPHONE SERVICES.
  TELEPHONE CALL OFFICE, HOLTON-LE-MOOR.
  TELEPHONE CALL OFFICE, HOLTON-LE-MOOR.
  AUTOMATIC TELEPHONE EXCHANGES, LONDON.
  AUTOMATIC TELEPHONE EXCHANGES, LONDON.
  AUTOMATIC STAMP MACHINES, HULL.
  AUTOMATIC STAMP MACHINES, HULL.
  TELEGRAPHIC SYSTEM, UNITED STATES.
  TELEGRAPHIC SYSTEM, UNITED STATES.
  FACILITIES, LONDON RAILWAY TERMINI.
  FACILITIES, LONDON RAILWAY TERMINI.
  SOUTH AFRICAN MAIL CONTRACT.
  SOUTH AFRICAN MAIL CONTRACT.
  STAMPS, KING EDWARD VII's REIGN.
  STAMPS, KING EDWARD VII's REIGN.
  CHANNEL TUNNEL.
  CHANNEL TUNNEL.
  WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE, WARRINGTON.
  WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE, WARRINGTON.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION, CARMARTHENSHIRE.
  SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION, CARMARTHENSHIRE.
SCOTLAND.
  MARRIAGE LAW.
  MARRIAGE LAW.
  SILICOSIS.
  SILICOSIS.
  CIVIL AVIATION (SUBSIDIES).
  CIVIL AVIATION (SUBSIDIES).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (EGYPT AND IRAQ).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (EGYPT AND IRAQ).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  JUNIOR INSTRUCTION CENTRES, NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  JUNIOR INSTRUCTION CENTRES, NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  WOOLWICH.
  WOOLWICH.
  BENEFIT.
  BENEFIT.
  ROAD SCHEMES, CORNWALL (WAGES).
  ROAD SCHEMES, CORNWALL (WAGES).
  HARBOUR AND DOCK WORKS.
  HARBOUR AND DOCK WORKS.
  MUSICAL INSTRUMENT INDUSTRY (WAGES).
  MUSICAL INSTRUMENT INDUSTRY (WAGES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  MEDICAL COLLEGE.
  MEDICAL COLLEGE.
  RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS.
  RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS.
  CHEMICAL WARFARE (EXPERIMENTS ON ANIMALS).
  CHEMICAL WARFARE (EXPERIMENTS ON ANIMALS).
  GUNS, WELLINGTON BARRACKS.
  GUNS, WELLINGTON BARRACKS.
  TRAVELLING EXPENSES, SOLDIERS' FAMILIES.
  TRAVELLING EXPENSES, SOLDIERS' FAMILIES.
  PROPOSED PENSION SCHEME, ROYAL ARSENAL.
  PROPOSED PENSION SCHEME, ROYAL ARSENAL.
  COLONIAL ALLOWANCE, SUDAN.
  COLONIAL ALLOWANCE, SUDAN.
  RECRUITS (EDUCATIONAL TEST).
  RECRUITS (EDUCATIONAL TEST).
  WORKING HOURS, WOOLWICH ARSENAL.
  WORKING HOURS, WOOLWICH ARSENAL.
AGRICULTURE.
  RATES ACTS.
  RATES ACTS.
  FLOUR MILLS (CLOSING).
  FLOUR MILLS (CLOSING).
  BEET SUGAR SUBSIDY.
  BEET SUGAR SUBSIDY.
  MILK (CONSUMPTION).
  MILK (CONSUMPTION).
  HORSES (EXPORT).
  HORSES (EXPORT).
  ALIEN SEAMEN.
  ALIEN SEAMEN.
  GAMING AND BETTING BILL, ISLE OF MAN.
  GAMING AND BETTING BILL, ISLE OF MAN.
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS (HEALTH ORGANISATION).
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS (HEALTH ORGANISATION).
  POOR LAW (CASUALS, STONEPOUNDING).
  POOR LAW (CASUALS, STONEPOUNDING).
  BREAD (SALE).
  BREAD (SALE).
TRANSPORT.
  RAILWAY FREIGHT REBATES.
  RAILWAY FREIGHT REBATES.
  DOCKS AND HARBOURS (MANAGEMENT).
  DOCKS AND HARBOURS (MANAGEMENT).
  JAMAICA (SAVINGS BANK).
  JAMAICA (SAVINGS BANK).
  DISTILLING.
  DISTILLING.
  RAILWAY PASSENGER DUTY.
  RAILWAY PASSENGER DUTY.
  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE CANTEENS.
  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE CANTEENS.
INCOME TAX.
  CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS.
  CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS.
  DEDUCTION AT SOURCE, SALARIED EMPLOYES.
  DEDUCTION AT SOURCE, SALARIED EMPLOYES.
  INVENTORS, AWARDS.
  INVENTORS, AWARDS.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, might I venture to ask the noble and learned Lord who leads the House if he can give your Lordships any welcome information as to the holidays?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, I hope it is welcome. We do not come back after the holidays till, I think it is, April 29, that is the Tuesday after Easter week. I hope we shall get away in Holy Week, but exactly on what day we shall get away in Holy Week I cannot give any further information at the moment. I am sure we shall want to do all our work before we go away and not leave matters outstanding. To-morrow we have a very important Motion which I think will take up our time—the Archbishop of Canterbury's Motion in reference to the investigation he has made regarding Russia. On Thursday there is the Workmen's Compensation (Silicosis) Bill of which we want to get the Second Reading. It is not a long matter. But we also have to discuss the question of Mr. Brangwyn's frescoes which will be brought forward on the Report of the House of Lords Offices Committee by the Lord Chairman. From information I have obtained that is likely to take some time. Next week, on Tuesday, April 8, we propose to take the Land Drainage Bill. That Bill was put down for an earlier date, but representations were made to me that a longer time would be advisable and it was put off (and Notice has been given of this) until Tuesday next. On Wednesday, April 9, Lord Trenchard will make his maiden speech to us when he introduces his Motion on the Air Force. Beyond that I have no desire to say anything, except that if the Land Drainage Bill is not finished on the Tuesday it will be on the Paper again on the following Thursday. I hope that information is satisfactory.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I have had an opportunity of conferring with one or two of my noble friends in respect of the Land Drainage Bill and I am afraid it presents very grave difficulties; I do not mean to say grave difficulties in respect of its ultimate fate but owing to its immense complication. I am not quite sure that your Lordships will feel inclined effectively to discuss the Second Reading of the Bill on Tuesday. I do not know which member of the Government is in charge of the Bill.
LORD PARMOOR: My noble friend Earl De La Warr.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If the noble Earl would think it right to make on Tuesday his statement on the Second Reading of the Bill, and your Lordships were not asked to go any further with regard to it without more consideration, that might perhaps be a way of adjusting the various difficulties; but I feel sure that a Bill so complicated and covering so many objects wants very careful consideration. I would like to point out, if your Lordships will allow me, that this Bill is one of those Bills which does something which we are generally most anxious to avoid—consolidation and amendment in one. It is almost impossible for any of your Lordships who are not very familiar with the subject to disentangle the two, and I think it will be almost necessary for noble Lords to have more information before they actually effectively discuss the Bill. I do not want, if I may say so, to interfere with the noble Earl making his statement on Tuesday, but I hope the Government will not be surprised if your Lordships think it right not to discuss it effectively until they have had time to consider this very elaborate Bill.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I rather regret what the noble Marquess has said, because we have a good deal of business that we want to get on with, and I hope to have at any rate a large part of the discussion on Second Reading on Tuesday. But let that matter stand over. The Bill has been put off, as the noble Marquess knows, a long time; and so far as consolidation and amendment are concerned I think the contrary to the noble Marquess. I thought it was the view of this House that the two should as far as possible go together.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, no.
LORD PARMOOR: Oh yes. There is a mistake about that. The Consolidation Committee has often done it at the same time and for a very good reason. You do not want directly after consolidation to have an amending Bill. That defeats to a great extent the purpose of consolidation. But I do not want to go further at the present time into that question, though I feel sure there is nothing wrong in it.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (BLANDFORD FORUM EXTENSION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons: read 1a and to be printed.
LIVERPOOL EXCHANGE COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
PERFORMING ANIMALS (REGULA TION) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Maintenance of banks and cleansing of channels of watercourses.
1.—(1) Where the owner or occupier of any agricultural land is of opinion that such land is being injured or is in danger of being injured by reason of the failure of the owner or occupier of any other land to maintain or to join in maintaining the banks or to cleanse or scour or to join in cleansing or scouring the channel of any watercourse
1074
in or partly in or adjoining such last-mentioned land, it shall be lawful for tile owner or occupier of such first-mentioned land to serve a notice on the owner of the land last-mentioned requiring him to maintain or to join in maintaining the banks or to cleanse or scour or to join in cleansing, or scouring the channel of any such watercourse as the case may be.
(4) If the sheriff is satisfied—

(a) that the land owned or occupied by the applicant is being or is in danger of being injured by such failure as aforesaid;

(b) that the person on whom the notice has been served is unreasonably refusing or delaying to take such steps as may be necessary to remedy or prevent such injury; and

(c) that the cost of carrying out any operations necessary to remedy or prevent such injury is such that it may reasonably be borne by the parties,

he may ordain the person upon whom the notice has been served to carry out such operations as the sheriff shall think necessary and that within such time as may be specified, and upon failure to implement such order the sheriff may grant a warrant authorising the carrying out of such operations, and the person authorised by such warrant shall have power to enter on the land where the operations are to be carried out, and to carry out the same. The sheriff may, if he thinks fit, direct that any operations to be carried out under such an order or warrant as aforesaid shall be carried out under the supervision of a person of skill and experience in matters of drainage.
(5) If on any such application the sheriff shall be of opinion that the land owned or occupied by the applicant is being or is in danger of being injured by such failure as aforesaid, but that the cost of carrying out any operations necessary to remedy or prevent such injury is such that it would be unreasonable to make an order under this section For the carrying out of such operations, he may direct that intimation of the application and of his decision thereon he made to the Department, and that any report submitted to him under subsection (3) of this section, and any plan, map, or other document produced in the application, be communicated to the Department.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, in subsection (1), before the first "cleanse," to insert "clear." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment is purely drafting. The person who drafted this Bill had in his mind open drains. The expressions used, maintaining time banks and cleansing the channels of watercourses, obviously refer to open ditches and streams and they are inappropriate to underground tile drains.

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I do not know if this Amendment will be accepted. The expression "watercourse" is defined in Clause 9 as including drains, and the Government stated in Committee in another place that "drains" included covered tile drains, and that the provisions of Clause 1 were intended to apply to tile drains. Choked tile drains cause much damage to agricultural land. You cannot maintain the banks of a tile drain and to speak of cleansing or scouring the channel of a six-inch tile drain is hardly a happy expression. The word "clear" is more appropriate. If a tile drain is choked you can clear away the obstruction. The Amendment is purely a drafting one with the object of incorporating some word appropriate to a choked tile drain. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 10, after ("to") insert ("clear").—(Viscount Novar.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL DE LA WARR): I quite agree with the noble Viscount that it is important to have words in this clause that will apply to tile drains, but I have been into the matter very carefully with legal advisers and I can assure the noble Viscount that the word "clear" is understood to be included in the expression "cleanse or scour." That is what we are told by our legal advisers, and therefore I would ask the noble Viscount not to press his Amendment, which only means putting in an extra word already implied.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I think my word is better, but I will accept the noble Earl's assurance.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, after subsection (3), to insert the following new subsection:
"(4) If on any such application the sheriff shall be of opinion that the applicant has acted unreasonably in serving a notice in pursuance of subsection (1) of this section he shall ordain the applicant to pay to the person on whom the notice has been served such sum as he shall consider fair and equitable in respect of the expenses incurred by such person in connection with such notice and application."
The noble Viscount said: The intention of this Amendment is obvious. It is to prevent people making frivolous applications. It is most necessary to guard
1076
against that especially, because with the breaking up of large estates you may have a great number of landowners who will be dealing with one another under any considerable scheme. It is to prevent people making frivolous applications and putting their neighbours to unnecessary annoyance and expense. It will be noticed that if an application is frivolous, the sheriff may ordain that the frivolous applicant shall pay to the other party the expense not only in connection with the application to the sheriff but all the expense to which he has been put since the notice was served on him. Under other land legislation in Scotland I have known landowners put to very large expense by claims for the making of small holdings, for example, which were subsequently dropped, and the unfortunate owner has been put to great expense by the Department and remained out of pocket. It is to prevent that kind of injustice that I move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 6, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Here again we are in agreement with the intention of the noble Viscount, and if the noble Viscount will look at page 2 of the Marshalled List of Amendments he will see that we have put down an Amendment ourselves that deals with his point and really goes further. Our Amendment does not restrict the point that the noble Viscount is putting to unreasonableness, and it also applies both to Clauses 1 and 2. Therefore I would ask the noble Viscount if he would withdraw his Amendment and let me move my Amendment at the end of Clause 2. In case he has not noticed the Amendment I will read it. It is at page 4, line 12, at the end to insert as a new subsection:
"(4) In any application to the sheriff under this or the immediately preceding section he shall have power to award expenses to or against any party to the application."
The noble Viscount will see that our Amendment goes much further than his and is completely general, whereas his is restricted.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I have not had the advantage of legal opinion in this

1077
matter, such as is enjoyed by the noble Earl, but if he assures me that his Amendment covers more ground than mine does I am quite ready to accept it.
EARL DE LA WARR: Yes, I do.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved, towards the end of subsection (4), after "The sheriff may, if he thinks fit," to insert "and shall if so required by the person upon whom the notice has been served." The noble Earl said: I rise to move the Amendment standing in my name, but before doing so I should like to point out the position. An owner of land is called upon by his neighbour, an owner or occupier, to carry out certain drainage schemes. He has refused to do so, and the owner who made the demand has invoked the assistance of the sheriff. The sheriff, having satisfied himself that the appellant's scheme is reasonable, ordains that the owner so called upon shall perform the work. The owner not having implemented the sheriff's order within two months the sheriff grants a warrant for a person to enter the land and carry out the work. Now I would call your attention to the last five lines of subsection (4). The subsection reads:—
"The sheriff may, if he thinks fit, direct that any operations to be carried out under such an order or warrant as aforesaid shall be carried out under the supervision of a person of skill and experience in matters of drainage."
It is unlikely that the work asked for would be of a simple nature such as an ordinary country labourer would be able to carry out—for instance, the cleansing of an open drain or ditch. The probabilities are that the work would be of a much more complicated and serious nature. For instance, the landowner may have been called upon in the month of October to shore up the banks of a river. It is very difficult to get a tradesman to contract for this class of work between the months of October and April, on account of the possibilities of the river suddenly being in spate owing to melting snows or excessive rain, in which case the works would be possibly quite washed away unless they had been completed. Moreover the landowner on whose property this scheme is to be carried out
1078
is responsible for its future maintenance and repair. I submit that the owner on whose land this drainage scheme is to take place should have the option of requiring the person who carries it out to be one who is skilled in matters of drainage, and that the option should not rest upon the sheriff, who may or may not be a person skilled in agricultural matters and who may or may not have availed himself of the opportunity of consulting a skilled man which is provided for in this clause. I submit that it is most desirable and equitable that the owner should have this option. I therefore hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will accept the Amendment and that your Lordships will approve it.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, after ("fit") insert ("and shall if so required by the person upon whom the notice has been served"). —(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: This clause really contemplates two things: firstly, an order on a person on whom a notice has been served to carry out certain operations; and secondly, a warrant authorising a person to carry out the operations. We should have it quite clearly in our minds that this clause does not begin to operate until individual negotiations have fallen through and the sheriff has been appealed to. The sheriff has to come to a decision as to whether the scheme is to be carried out, and how it is to be carried out. Accordingly it is our opinion that it should be the sheriff who decides whether or not he requires expert advice. In actual practice I presume that a sheriff would almost always call in expert advice on a scheme of any size, but we think it should be left to him to make the decision. We must remember that, as I said at the beginning, this clause will not be called into operation at all until we are actually asked to deal with a landlord who has been found so much in default that the condition of his land is actually affecting other people's lands. We think, therefore, that the power should rest, not with the landlord, but with the sheriff to decide when the expert should be called in. I hope that your Lordships will not accept this Amendment.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I am loth to interfere in a Scottish Bill, but

1079
this seems to me to be a very reasonable Amendment. All it does is to ensure that the owner shall have the opportunity of asking the sheriff to see that a person who has knowledge carries out these operations. What is the objection to that?
EARL DE LA WARR: He will certainly have the opportunity of asking the sheriff to call in expert opinion, but the matter has by this stage been handed over to the sheriff to deal with, and we think that the full responsibility for the way in which the sheriff deals with it should rest with him. Surely that it is quite clear and reasonable.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: If I understand the noble Earl, he says that the owner can ask the sheriff. But the
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
EARL DE LA WARR: I have a drafting Amendment to this clause, in subsection (5), after the first "Department."
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 41, after ("Department") insert ("of Agriculture for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as the Department)").—(Earl De La Warr.)
sheriff can say: "You can go somewhere else; I will not listen to you." This Amendment will insist upon the sheriff giving attention to the owner. I hope the noble Earl will persist in it.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: The average owner of land knows considerably more about this kind of business than the average sheriff. I think this is a very reasonable Amendment, and I hope that my noble friend will take it to a Division.
LORD SALTOUN: I think this is a very important Amendment, and I hope the noble Earl will press it.
On Question, Whether the said words shall be here inserted?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 60; Not-Contents, 13.

CONTENTS.

Camden, M.

Devonport, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Salisbury, M.

Elibank, V.

Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.)

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Gage, L, (V. Gage.)

Airlie, E.

Mersey, V.

Greenway, L.

Ancaster, E.

Novar, V.

Hampton, L.

Breadalbane and Holland, E.

Hayter, L.

Abinger, L.

Lamington, L.

Iveagh, E.

Addington, L.

Leconfield, L.

Lauderdale, E. [Teller.]

Askwith, L.

Leigh, L.

Lucan, E.

Auckland, L.

Macmillan, L.

Mar and Kellie, E.

Banbury of Southam, L.

Monteagle, L. (M. Sligo.)

Onslow, E.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Ormonde, L. (M. Ormonde.)

Peel, E.

Bowes, L. (E. Strathmore and Kinghorn.)

St. Levan, L.

Plymouth, E.

Saltoun, L.

Stanhope, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Sinclair, L.

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Somerleyton, L.

Clinton, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L. (L. Sheffield.)

Allenby of Megiddo, V.

Cushendun, L.

Bertie of Thame, V. [Teller.]

Danesfort, L.

Swaythling, L.

Brentford, V.

Daresbury, L.

Templemore, L.

Burnham, V.

Darling, L.

Treowen, L.

Chaplin, V.

Dynevor, L.

Wynford, L.

Churchill, V.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Esher, V.

Marks, L. [Teller.]

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Beauchamp, E.

Arnold, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

De La Warr, E.

Clwyd, L.

Stanmore, L.

Russell, E.

Kylsant, L.

Thomson, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Making of underground main drains.
2.—(1) Where the owner or occupier of any agricultural land is of opinion that such land is being injured or is in danger of being injured through the refusal of the owner of any land to allow underground main drains to be formed through his land it shall be lawful for the owner or occupier of such agricultural land to apply to the sheriff for a warrant authorising him to

1081
make such underground main drains through the land of such owner.
(2) If the sheriff is satisfied that the land owned or occupied by the applicant is being or is in danger of being injured by such refusal as aforesaid, and that permission to make such underground main drains is being unreasonably withheld, he may after such inquiry by remit or report, or otherwise, as he may think necessary, grant a warrant authorising the making of such underground main drains, and the person so authorised shall have power to enter on the land where the operations are to be carried out, and to carry out the same. The sheriff may, if he thinks fit, direct that any operations to be carried out under such warrant shall be carried out under the supervision of a person of skill and experience in matters of drainage.
(3) Such warrant shall provide (i) for the payment by the person so authorised of compensation for any damage caused to any other person by reason of the making of the underground main drains authorised by such warrant, the amount of such compensation, failing agreement, to be determined by the sheriff after such inquiry as aforesaid; and (ii) for the proper maintenance or renewal of the said drains in the future at the expense of the owner for the time being of the said agricultural land.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Viscount Novar's Amendment, to insert a new subsection after subsection (1), deals with the same point as has already been decided.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in subsection (2), after the second "the," to insert "agricultural." The noble Lord said: This is a purely drafting Amendment. It will be observed that Clause 2 commences with the words "Where the owner or occupier of any agricultural land," etc., as distinguished from "the owner of any land." It is desirable, therefore, to insert the word "agricultural" before the word "land" in line 32. All through this clause the person who is making application is the owner or occupier of agricultural land, and this person is distinguished from the owner of the other land through whose property it is desired to make the underground drainage. I hope that as the Amendment is merely drafting the noble Earl will see his way to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 32, after the second ("the") insert ("agricultural").—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
EARL DE LA WARR: As the noble Lord says, this is a purely drafting
1082
Amendment, but I am advised that it is quite unnecessary, for this reason, that the word "land" in line 32 obviously refers back to the word "land" in line 25, in subsection (1), and that has "agricultural" before it. Therefore it is quite unnecessary to repeat, and I am advised that it would be better drafting if the word were left out here. I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved, in subsection (2), after "The sheriff may, if he thinks fit," to insert "and shall if so required by the person through whose land such underground main drains are proposed to be made," The noble Earl said: This raises the same point that I raised before, only in a greater degree, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 42, after ("fit") insert ("and shall if so required by the person through whose land such underground main drains are proposed to be made").—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: The Government have just the same objections to this Amendment, only perhaps stronger, but your Lordships have expressed your views on the principle and I do not think that it will be any good putting you to the trouble of a Division. I will content myself with entering formal disagreement on the part of the Government.
VISCOUNT NOVAE: Do you accept it?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, the noble Earl says that he will not resist it.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: Then they do accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "damage caused to," and insert "loss, injury or damage sustained by." The noble Earl said: I look upon this as purely a drafting Amendment. As the clause at present stands the expression "damage caused to" might refer to personal damage and not to financial damage, which is what my Amendment is in-

1083
tended to cover. There may be damage caused from underground or other drains to the standing crops, dykes or fences.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 5, leave out ("damage caused to") and insert ("loss, injury or damage sustained by").—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: This is a drafting Amendment, and I am advised that there is really no difference between it and the words in the Bill, except that the Amendment is slightly longer and in our opinion, not quite so well drafted. Unless the noble Earl feels strongly about it I would suggest that we leave the clause as it is.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I feel at present that it is uncertain what the words do refer to.
EARL DE LA WARR: I am advised that there is no difference between "injury" and "damage."
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I will withdraw the Amendment now, and consider the matter before Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "other." The noble Earl said: It appears to me that this word is unnecessary.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 5, leave out ("other").—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I think if the noble Earl reads the subsection carefully he will see that the omission of the word "other" merely gives an owner the right to claim compensation from himself. The subsection reads:—
"Such warrant shall provide (i) for the payment by the person so authorised of compensation for any damage caused to any other person.…."
The only exception made by the word "other" which it is proposed to leave out is the person himself, and therefore all that the Amendment would do would be to enable the claimant to receive compensation from himself.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I look upon it as purely drafting, and am prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:—
"(4) In any application to the sheriff under this or the immediately preceding section he shall have power to award expenses to or against any party to the application."
The noble Earl said: I will not take up any time over this Amendment. It is one which I said I would move as a substitute for Lord Novar's Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Schemes for drainage works.
3.—(1) Where the Department of Agriculture for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as the Department) are of opinion.…
(3) In fixing the amount of the cost recoverable by the Department and in apportioning that amount or in apportioning the cost of maintenance among the lands comprised in the area affected by the scheme, the Department shall have regard to the benefit expected to accrue to such lands by reason of the execution of the scheme, and shall not apportion to any lands an amount in excess of the estimated value of the benefit so expected to accrue to such lands ….
(9) Every scheme made under tins section shall so soon as all claims for compensation have been agreed on or determined, and if the Department propose to proceed with it, be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after any such scheme is laid before it praying that the scheme may be annulled it shall be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or to the making of a new scheme.
(10) When a scheme has been laid before Parliament in accordance with the foregoing subsection, and the period within which an Address praying that the scheme may be annulled has expired and no such Address has been presented, the Department may decide to proceed with the execution of the works in accordance with the scheme, and if they so decide shall intimate such decision to the persons on whom copies of the scheme shall have been served in pursuance of subsection (4) of this section, and any compensation agreed upon or determined in pursuance of the foregoing provisions of this section shall then become due.
(12) The cost incurred by the Department in maintaining drainage works executed in pursuance of a scheme under this section shall be recoverable by the Department from the owners of the lands comprised in the area affected by the scheme according to the apportionment therein contained, and any sum due by any such owner in respect of such cost shall, if the Department so decide, be levied on and recovered from such owner by the rating authority in like manner in all respects as if it were a rate leviable by that authority and shall be paid over by the rating authority to the Department.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Amendment, to subsection (1), is purely drafting and consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 14, leave out ("(hereinafter referred to as the Department)").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, in subsection (3), after "lands" where that word fourthly occurs, to insert "whether in the case of capital cost or in the case of maintenance cost." The noble Viscount said: It is quite clear that in the Bill capital cost is adequately dealt with, but it is not so clear that maintenance cost is equally dealt with. It is very necessary to be perfectly clear in this matter. These works are going to be executed by a public Department, no doubt in their usual costly and incompetent manner. We have had considerable experience of this in my country, and the work done by a public Department always costs about twice as much as when it is done by anybody else, and it is not done in nearly so practical a manner. Therefore, these safeguards have to be very carefully watched. You may have It work done which is a dead failure, and yet the cost of the operations will be saddled on the land for eternity unless some safeguards are introduced. This is one of them. But I am quite ready to let it stand over till Report.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 17, after ("lands") insert the said words.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: We think that the point is already covered in the Bill, but we will certainly consider it.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I think it may be, but I want to make sure. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in subsection (9), to leave out "and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after any such scheme is laid before it praying that the scheme may be annulled," and to insert "forthwith and unless a Resolution approving the scheme is passed by both Houses of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which both Houses have sat after such scheme is laid before Parliament the scheme."
The noble Lord said: This provides for an affirmative Resolution by Parliament. Subsection (9) of this clause provides for schemes made by the Department being laid before Parliament before they can be put into operation. If no Address is presented by either House within the next twenty-eight days praying that the scheme be annulled, it is automatically approved. My Amendment, on the contrary, provides that the scheme must be affirmed by a Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. This procedure draws direct attention to the scheme, which might otherwise have slipped through unobserved. It should be noted that there is no legal appeal against the Department's scheme, except as regards the amount of the cost recoverable. An owner or occupier who is dissatisfied with the amount of the cost allocated to him by the scheme can demand that this question of cost shall be submitted to arbitration, and the finding of the arbitrator is final. It should further be noted that subsection (3) of this clause expressly provides that in apportioning the costs there shall not be allocated on any land an amount in excess of the estimated value of the benefit expected to accrue to such land. To the extent to which the cost of the scheme exceeds the benefit which it is estimated will accrue to the respective lands the Treasury has to bear the cost.
It may be argued, therefore, that no individual owner or occupier is in need of a right of appeal against the scheme, for he cannot be made to pay more than the benefit which he is expected to receive, and as regards that benefit he has the right of appeal to an arbitrator selected from a panel appointed by the Reference Committee. There is one point, however, in this argument which is over-

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looked, for, whilst it is true that no owner can be asked to pay a greater share of the cost of carrying out the drainage works than the expected benefit thereunder, each owner has to pay his share of the full cost of the future maintenance of the works. No Treasury grant is available to meet these maintenance costs, although they will be very heavy. The only appeal against the scheme is in Parliament, and therefore Parliament should be asked to affirm these schemes by Resolution, instead of their being allowed to slip through unobserved. There are many precedents for an affirmative Resolution in Parliament, and we feel that it is very necessary in this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 37, leave out from ("Parliament") to ("shall") in line 41 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
VISCOUNT NOVAR: This is as important an Amendment as has been moved. I admit it is a cumbersome kind of security for the individual, but I do not see what other is available, and some security for the individual is absolutely necessary, otherwise it means a free hand to the official under whose heel the private individual finds himself. Perhaps I ought to offer an apology for referring to any official or to the Civil Service. I noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place in Committee on the Health and Labour Estimates spoke of the invariable custom which screens officials of all Departments from Parliamentary criticism. In pre-War times that was so. Now, however, new spheres are occupied by the Civil Service. Its numbers are enormously increased, so also its power to exercise responsibilities which formerly actually rested on a Minister if he had any executive capacity.
The Circumlocution Office of "Little Dorrit" may in certain respects remain as it is, but its activities are very different. The Lord Chief Justice has dealt with the tyranny of the Civil Service; a Minister has exposed the incompetence of his own Department: to them both the community owes its thanks. Few Ministers nowadays can adequately supervise all their officials and sub-departments, and so the old salutary custom to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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referred must necessarily be more honoured in the breach than in the observance. The community must have the power to deal with those in actual authority. The dictum that the King can do no wrong cannot be extended to those on whom the power of modifying and enacting legislative regulations has been conferred by Acts of Parliament. Therefore I hold that in this matter there must be some check on the operation of the Civil Department and the Service, and I cordially support the Amendment.
LORD DYNEVOR: I strongly support this Amendment. Drainage schemes may be very costly, and may be a very heavy burden on a great many agricultural landowners. I think, therefore, that every precaution ought to be taken, and every publicity given to a scheme before it becomes law.
EARL DE LA WARR: The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, told your Lordships what were the safeguards regarding compensation in this clause. I shall not follow him into that because we are not really discussing that matter. This Amendment really accepts the structure of the clause but is an attempt to alter the means by which Parliament deals with its operation when a scheme is actually laid before it. The question is whether we should have an affirmative Resolution or a negative Resolution of the House before a scheme can go through. A number of schemes will have to be prepared. There will probably be three, four, or five schemes a year. If this Amendment is carried the Government of the day will be in the position of having to allot time not only in your Lordships' House but in another place (and your Lordships know how busy the House of Commons is) for a full discussion as to whether a particular drainage scheme is to be carried through.
The noble Lord said that there are a great number of precedents for that mode of working. I have made inquiries and I must confess that I have not been able to find any precedents for working a scheme of this kind in that way. We appreciate the desire of the noble Lord to see that the individual is protected against the Gorgon of the Civil Service, but I would submit that the machinery we propose does provide that protection. It states that before a scheme is put into

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operation it must be laid on the Table of your Lordships' House and of the House of Commons for a month. Surely it is clear, therefore, that it would be impossible for a scheme, to use the words of the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, to slip through unobserved. Imagine a scheme in preparation in Scotland with a landlord vitally affected. He first has the power of appealing to the Department. If he fails he will be in a position to approach any member of your Lordships' House or of another place and have the matter raised during the month. Then, if he does that, even under our scheme there will have to be what amounts to an affirmative Resolution of the House. I would ask the noble Lord not to press this Amendment. It will certainly hold up the whole operation of this Bill very severely, and His Majesty's Government are most anxious that this new insertion should not be made.
LORD DARLING: This, I think, raises a question rather larger than one might at first sight imagine. I understand that there is a dispute between the noble Earl opposite and the noble Lord who moved the Amendment and, I think, between him and the noble Viscount, Lord Novar, as to whether there is any precedent for this Amendment. I am not unduly attached to precedents, I hope, but it seems to me that if the practically invariable rule with matters of this kind is that the scheme should lie upon the Table of both Houses and should only become law if no objection is taken in either House of Parliament, it would be a somewhat violent departure to say with regard to this particular matter that what is the rule with practically all other matters should not prevail. Before I am called upon to vote I should like to know authoritatively from whoever can give the information whether this Amendment would establish an absolutely new method of dealing with business of this kind. I know what the Lord Chief Justice has written and I agree with most of it, but if this scheme affecting so many people interested in land had to be laid on the Table of this House and could not become law unless it passed this House, I cannot think that it could slip through without any noble Lord having noted it at all and objected to it. That is only one part of the matter. I must say that the argument that it could not happen appeals to me, but I should very much
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like to know whether we are here asked to do something which is absolutely outside the ordinary practice.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, I understand, rather challenged what my noble friend Lord Fairfax said as to precedents. I have made inquiries and I am told that in the Road Traffic Bill and the Church Enabling Act there are certainly precedents for this, and possibly in the Education Bill and the Local Government Bill of 1929.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: This Amendment has often been moved in another place, and it has occasionally been accepted though I cannot say for the moment on which occasions. It is not so entirely new as my noble and learned friend would think. It is a very much better proposal than the other for this reason, that in the House of Commons the other proposal that the scheme should lie on the Table and become law, unless it is objected to is absolutely useless. It cannot come on until after eleven o'clock, there are very few members in the House, the Government take care that they shall have a majority, and the consequence is that the protection is absolutely useless. In your Lordships' House it is rather different. If you look through all the Papers which you can get if you ask for them, you can find out whether or not there is a particular matter which can be objected to. But how many of those in your Lordships' House look through the Papers? When I first had the honour of being a member of your Lordships' House I looked through the Papers, but I have rather given it up because there are such a large number that it almost requires a special secretary to look them up for you. On the other hand, this proposal is a very simple thing. The scheme is to lie on the Table and everybody knows it. If it is good it will pass; if it is bad it will not pass. I hope the Amendment will be accepted.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): I have had some experience of this question of an affirmative Resolution both in the Road Traffic Bill and in the Mental Treatment Bill that we were dealing with. Might I first say a word about the argument of the noble Lord who has just sat down?

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He said that in the House of Commons the mere negativing of a Resolution or scheme which was laid would be useless because it would come on after eleven o'clock when nobody would be there except a majority of Government supporters. Is not that equally true of an affirmative Resolution? That is also business that can be taken after eleven o'clock and would, I suppose, be taken in the same way. There is just the same chance in the one case as there is in the other.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: That shows the advantage of this House.
EARL RUSSELL: Very likely; but the noble Lord's argument was that it was futile in another place, and I was only pointing out to your Lordships that if the one process were futile so probably would the other be. There are some precedents, very few, for the affirmative Resolution. In the Road Traffic Bill a very clear distinction was drawn. Your Lordships' House required an affirmative Resolution—I am speaking from memory and I think I am right—only for the highway code which you regarded as a matter of such importance that it ought to have an affirmative Resolution. All the innumerable regulations and orders that might be made under the various other clauses of that Bill were only in the ordinary way to lie on the Table. I am not, as a matter of democratic government, opposing in themselves affirmative Resolutions if they serve any useful purpose, but honestly I cannot say that they do. I should very much prefer, in order to prevent any lingering apprehensions that people sometimes have—and perhaps I have had them myself sometimes—of these things slipping through unnoticed; that we should, at any rate in this House, refer them to some body like the Special Orders Committee, so that we could get an assurance from that Committee, and might know if there was anything to which attention required to be called.
There are in the course of a year so many hundreds of rules and regulations of this kind laid on the Table which are so insignificant and so obvious that it would be quite absurd to require an affirmative Resolution in regard to them. This is a comparatively small matter. It is a case of land drainage in Scotland and affects a comparatively small issue. I think your Lordships would be very
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unwise from the point of view of precedent—and I think I might perhaps obtain some support for this from the Front Bench opposite—to insist upon an affirmative Resolution. It would not only embarrass this Government, but it would embarrass future Governments and would be a precedent not only for this but for future Governments. I do not think it would tend to make public business more successful, and I hope your Lordships will not be led away by fallacious and, I think, rather specious arguments, but will resist the Amendment in the case of this Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I quite understand the appeal which the noble Earl who has just sat down has made to the Front Bench on this side, and no one is more entitled to make such an appeal than he himself, because he has watched the proceedings of your Lordships' House and the methods of legislation for many years. I am quite willing personally not to close my mind upon the issue which is before your Lordships, although I am going to make a suggestion in a moment. Let me say one word about the difference between the affirmative Resolution and the other method of treating these matters. I quite agree with my noble friend Lord Banbury, that the method of affirmative Resolution is much more valuable than the other way, and much more important. The method of negative Resolutions—I mean merely laying schemes on the Table of the House and leaving any member of either House of Parliament to intervene—has become very largely so much a matter of form as to cease to be very effective. I think that is a most profound misfortune. Any method which can be hit upon of keeping the control of Parliament over legislation, and yet on the other hand avoiding the immense trouble of getting a whole Bill through Parliament, is, I am quite sure, a direction in which the development of legislation ought to proceed. It is the real issue from the dilemma.
You have, on the one hand, the obligation of preventing anything being done to the detriment, or what is thought to be the detriment, of His Majesty's subjects without the consent of Parliament. You have that danger on the one hand, and you have the immense difficulty of getting a Bill through all its stages in both

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Houses of Parliament on the other; and if you can find some method which will preserve the control of Parliament and yet avoid all the difficulties of complete legislation, then I think that is a course which ought to be cherished and pursued. Of course, it ought not to be applied to matters of great importance. They must go through the difficulties of Bills as before. But if it can be shown that the method of the purely negative Resolution—merely placing proposals on the Table of the House and leaving anybody to object—has become inoperative, then 'we do not succeed on the other side of the dilemma. I am not sure that my metaphors are not a little confused, but at any rate the noble Earl will follow what I mean.
I must say that I think this case is one of much more importance than was suggested by the noble Earl who has just sat down. He talked about regulations, but these schemes of land drainage are evidently not regulations such as were put into the Road Traffic Bill. Small regulations adjusting the operations of a Bill are one thing, but schemes of land drainage which affect perhaps very considerable areas and very important interests are quite another. One case is only machinery; the other case is definitely in the nature of legislation affecting the rights of His Majesty's subjects. I must say that, though it, hardly ever happens, I think the noble Earl in this respect over-stated his case, and I cannot accept his analogy. It appears to me, therefore, on the face of it that this would come within the class of case which ought to be covered by something more than merely laying the thing upon the Table of the House. I will make this suggestion to your Lordships. I admit the difficulty of drawing the line, but I suggest that we put my noble friend's Amendment as it stands into the Bill, and that then we should consider the matter between now and Report. We will do our best to look at this in a reasonable spirit, and if the Government can convince us we have gone too far we will consider with our friends whether we cannot modify it at a future stage of the Bill.
EARL DE LA WARR: After the very reasonable attempt of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, to meet us I confess I find myself in considerable difficulty. We do consider this matter as one of
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most vital importance. Perhaps, with out repeating myself, I might mention one further argument to your Lordships. I am inclined to agree with the noble Marquess who has just sat down that perhaps my noble friend Lord Russell did treat this as being not quite so important as it really is. On the other hand, I would suggest to your Lordships that the fact that these schemes are important and that, as the noble Marquess said, they affect very large interests, should surely convince your Lordships that there is no chance of those large interests being overlooked by the two Houses of Parliament. They will be interests which are eminently in a position to lay their case before Parliament, either through their Members of Parliament or through your Lordships. Many of the persons concerned might even be members of your Lordships' House.
Therefore I would ask the noble Lord who is moving this Amendment, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, to allow us to reverse the procedure he suggested and keep this subsection in the Bill. Then I will undertake to reconsider the matter before Report and we can have it gone into again. If I have not argued the question adequately this time, I will endeavour to do so next time, and convince your Lordships then, better than I am afraid I have done this evening, that this Amendment will really have the effect, not so much of giving greater protection to the individual than he gets under the clause as it stands but of making the machinery cumbrous, heavy and difficult to operate. It may have the effect, too, of holding up a large number of schemes which we regard as very important and desire to go ahead with as quickly as possible.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I greatly prefer that the boot should be on the other leg. I thank the Leader of the Opposition for the manner in which he has tried to help us out of our difficulty. It is not a matter relating merely to this Bill, although I think we have suffered from the kind of work proposed under the Bill far more in Scotland than has been the experience in this more fortunate land. But it goes far beyond this Bill. Before the War in another place the pages that were covered with matters of this kind and were left to lie upon the Table were increasing year

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by year. There are so many of them now, and the amount of business included in the things allowed to lie upon the Table is so enormous, that it really is impossible to follow them. It really has become an automatic procedure. It is very seldom that anything lying on the Table is ever challenged. It is useless to do it in the other place. Probably if the attendance were better in your Lordships' House questions might be raised here, but I doubt whether it is of more practical value to have these measures upon the Table in this House than it is in the other House, where it is useless. It is time the Government seriously considered the point, not merely because of the mass of the Bills themselves, but of the greatly increased importance of the undertakings carried through by Government Departments and the powers that Government Departments, as the Lord Chief Justice has pointed out, have of altering Acts of Parliament. The trouble has risen to such a pitch that I consider it ought to be dealt with. I think that to give the Government time to consider the matter before Report, as is proposed by the Leader of the Opposition, is the right way, and I hope the noble Lord will go to a Division.
EARL DE LA WARR: I take it that the noble Lord will not agree to my suggestion that we should keep the clause as it stands and that the Government should consider this?
VISCOUNT NOVAR: No.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think the noble Earl should consent to the suggestion I ventured to make to him. We did our best to put it in as conciliatory a way as possible. We do not absolutely close the door, but I am sure he must see that the feeling of the Committee is that they are anxious to put the Amendment in the Bill. Then we can consider what the final form ought to be between this and the next stage of the Bill.
EARL DE LA WARR: Well, we must admit when we are defeated. I am quite sure that if I went to a Division I should be beaten. I quite realise that the noble Marquess, the Leader of the Opposition, has done his best to meet us.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am much obliged to the noble Earl.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: The next Amendment, in subsection (10), is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 2, leave out from ("subsection") to ("the") in line 5, and insert ("and has been approved by both Houses"). —(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
Clause 6:
Service of notices, etc.
6. Any notice or other document required or authorised by this Act to be served on any person may be served by delivery to that person or by post, and service on the known agent of any person shall be deemed to be service on that person.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, before "post," to insert "registered." The noble Lord said: The insertion of the word "registered" will bring this clause into line with a similar clause in the English Bill. Quite apart from that, if legal proceedings are to follow in the event of a person disregarding any notice served upon him it is highly desirable that there should be unimpeachable evidence that the notice has been served. I hope the noble Earl will accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 24, after the second ("by") insert ("registered").—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I will not say that the insertion or the non-insertion of this word is really of vital importance to the Bill. At the same time it would be a large departure from the usual practice in legislation of this character. Clause 6 has been drafted in conformity with the general law and is based on Section 26 of the Interpretation Act, 1889. Perhaps I may be allowed to read to your Lordships the words of that section. They are:
"Where an Act passed after the commencement of this Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post, whether the expression 'serve,' or the expression 'give' or 'send,' or any other expression is used, then, unless the contrary

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intention appears, the service shall be deemed to be effected by properly addressing, prepaying, and posting a letter containing the document, and unless the contrary is proved to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."
If your Lordships make this Amendment we shall be departing from this method of procedure which has been going on for a very long time, and therefore I would suggest to the noble Lord that unless he feels very strongly on this matter he should not press it.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Interpretation.
9. In this Act unless the context otherwise requires:—
The expression "watercourse" shall include any river, stream, ditch, drain (whether open or closed), cut, culvert, dyke, or sluice:
LORD DYNEVOR LORD DYNEVOR moved, in the definition of "watercourse," to leave out "river." The noble Lord said: The chief point of this Bill is that watercourses are to be kept open and clear, and the Bill defines a watercourse as a "river, stream, ditch, drain," etc. In 1926 the Government of the day introduced a Land Drainage Bill for England and Wales, the object of which was to keep drains open and clear. The definition of a drain was "any river, stream, ditch, drain," so the two Bills have been practically introduced with the same definition, the only difference being that this Bill talks about watercourses and the 1926 Bill talked about drains. The definition in both cases is the same. I took exception to the definition in the 1926 Bill and I moved an Amendment to delete the word "river." I told my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, who was in charge of the Bill, that you could not expect landowners to go to the expense of cleaning out rivers like the River Severn. What surprises me most on reading through the debate of 1926 is to find that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor—who I regret to see is not in his
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place—moved an Amendment to delete not only the word "river" but "stream" as well. I should have asked him, if he had been in the House at this moment, why he wants rivers and streams in this Bill. I can only imagine that it is due to the change from Opposition to Office.
Your Lordships did not accept the Amendment moved by Lord Parmoor, but you did accept my Amendment, taking out the word "river." I am proposing by this Amendment to do exactly what I did in 1926. On the Second Reading of this Bill I said that to call upon landowners in Scotland to clean out such rivers as the Tweed, the Clyde and the Tay was ludicrous. Agricultural landowners are certainly not well off at the present time, and the Bill may impose upon them and upon occupiers very heavy burdens—in fact, more than their shoulders can carry. In order to remove that danger I am moving to take out the word "river." Agriculture is at present at a very low ebb. The Government is doing nothing to assist, and it ought not to add to the difficulties and burdens now upon the shoulders of agriculturists. I assume that in the Budget on April 14 the Government will add still further to the burdens of agricultural landowners. I hope that your Lordships will agree to do what you did in 1926 and will delete the word "river." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 34, leave out ("river").—(Lord Dynevor.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor, is not in his plane, but unfortunately he was not very well and had to leave. I think, however, I shall be able to make clear to the noble Lord before I sit down what my noble friend's position would be with regard to this Amendment. In our view it is most essential that we should keep the word "river" in the definition of "watercourse," for the purposes both of Clause 1 and of Clause 3. The Bill deals with flooding or danger from flooding and, so far as the desirability of so doing is concerned, it really does not matter in the least whether the watercourse that is causing the damage is called a river or a stream.
Perhaps I might deal for the moment with the fear that I think is in Lord

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Dynevor's mind. He mentioned on the Second Reading and again to-day that he is afraid that landowners will be called on to clean out rivers like the Tweed, the Clyde and the Tay. There is no possibility of this happening under the Bill and, if he will look at page 2, he will see why. In subsection (4) of Clause 1 three points are mentioned on which the sheriff has to satisfy himself before he orders a scheme to be carried out. The second point is this:
"that the person whom the notice has been served is unreasonably refusing or delaying to take such steps as may be necessary to remedy or prevent such injury."
The third point is:
"that the cost of carrying out any operations necessary to remedy or prevent such injury is such that it may reasonably be borne by the parties."
Later on, in subsection (5), he will see that, if the sheriff is of opinion that the parties concerned cannot reasonably be expected to carry out the scheme at their expense, he shall report his conclusion to the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, and it will then be open to them to consider whether or not they will carry out the scheme under Clause 3. I think, therefore, that the noble Lord will see that the individual landowner is explicitly protected against an unreasonable demand to clean out such rivers. Actually in Scotland all the schemes that are really of importance refer to rivers, and, therefore, if we had to except rivers from Clause 1 we should almost be making the Bill inoperative in a number of eases, and if we had to except them from Clause 3 we should make that clause almost a dead letter.
The noble Lord referred to the English Act of 1926. Here I think I shall be able to show him that my noble friend Lord Parmoor's Amendment was not really so inconsistent with this clause as he thinks. It is true that rivers were excepted from that Act, but the exception did not apply where what is required could be done 'by a scheme under Section 16 of the Act of 1918, which corresponds to Clause 3 of this Bill. In the second place, the exception of rivers from the Act of 1928 does not apply where the drain is under the jurisdiction of a drainage authority or board of conservators that is exercising its powers, except with the consent of that authority. It is thus obvious that Section 2 of the
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Act of 1926 is not in the least analogous to the provisions of the present Bill. I would therefore ask the noble Lord not to insist upon this Amendment. The clause, as it stands, is not so completely out of touch with the Act of 1926 as I think he supposed, and his Amendment would really invalidate the Bill and make it almost inoperative.
LORD DYNEVOR: I do not know what opinion other members of your Lordships' House have formed, but I think this is a very important Amendment. I still cannot see how the landowner in Scotland is safeguarded. The noble Earl tried to impress upon my mind that the sheriff would be a very kind gentleman and would not encourage any objection able demands on individuals. But, so far as I have read the Bill, the Department of Agriculture has very strong powers for drainage schemes. So far as I can see, it can do very much what it likes and can bring rivers of the size that I have mentioned into its schemes. I should like to hear some other noble Lord on the question. For the moment I am inclined to press the Amendment.
LORD DANESFORT: I should like to ask if I am right in saying that the position is this: that the question whether a river is to be cleansed or not is left to the sole discretion of the sheriff. If he is a reasonable person, he will probably say that the cost of cleansing a very large river should not come under schemes of this sort. If he takes a different view, he can say that that scheme must be undertaken, and, although the cost may be exceedingly large and onerous upon the owner, that scheme is to be carried out. Is it right that the sheriff should be left the sole judge of whether a river is to be the subject of a scheme or not? It seems to me to give the sheriff an extraordinarily wide discretion and, therefore, if my noble friend goes to a Division I shall certainly support him.
LORD DARLING: I do not feel quite sure that even if Lord Dynevor's Amendment be carried the people who are riparian owners in Scotland will be so safe as he supposes, because as I understand he only desires to leave out the word "river." This definition would then read: "The expression 'watercourse' shall include any stream …." What is

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the definition of a stream as opposed to a river? I do not know. I think if I were to search in literature—I have not the time to do it now—I could find the Thames called a stream over and over again. There are rivers in Scotland quite as large and as full of water as the Thames, and I fancy it would not be absolutely inappropriate to describe the Solway as a stream, or the Tay or the Tweed. Therefore, if the word "river" be left out, I am afraid that to live on the banks of one of these rivers might expose one to an order at the hands of the sheriff to clean it out and make it something totally different from what it is. What I have said may possibly lead the noble Earl to accept the Amendment, because he will still have the word "stream" in the Bill, which will suffice for the sheriff to ruin many a riparian owner.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am rather inclined to suggest to my noble friend that he should not press his Amendment, for two reasons. In the first place there is the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Darling, to which we have just listened. He has pointed out that there is some doubt whether the Amendment would really carry out what is intended. The other reason is that I do not know how far my noble friend is familiar with Scottish opinion in this matter. I am not, and I waited to hear whether those who represent Scottish opinion here would take the lead in suggesting what course we ought to pursue in reference to this Amendment. We have not heard any of that advice forthcoming, and, therefore, I hope that in the circumstances my noble friend will not press his Amendment at this stage of the Bill. Between now and the Report stage he will be able to see whether his drafting is as complete as it generally is, and he will also be able to find out whether noble Lords from Scotland take the same view on a rather intricate point.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTON: I would also suggest that this Amendment should be withdrawn and considered at a later stage of the Bill. I own land on the Upper Clyde, and I ask myself whether we want a big drainage Bill or not. From the present appearance of the Upper Clyde I know that it is imperative in the near future to have a big
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drainage scheme, but the fact is that landowners are not unnaturally fearful of the consequences of a permanent burden being put upon the land. The Government may not be aware that the land is taxed practically to its fullest capacity, although I hear tales of still further taxation in the coming year. Of course, we are all of us in Scotland very keen to see something done for the country. All Scottish Peers should be really anxious to pass a beneficial Drainage Bill, and we would be all of us very glad to assist the Government in this matter, were it not for the fear at the back of our minds of the consequences of the resulting financial burden. For instance, we know that a small part of the actual estimated cost of such a scheme—it would be a capital charge of course—would be laid upon us, and then afterwards we have to consider the cost of maintenance which will go on for many years. I venture to suggest to Lord Dynevor that he should not now press his Amendment, so that, as was suggested by the noble Marquess, we who come down from Scotland may further consider the matter and make up our minds whether this is a beneficial proposal or not, and how far we are prepared to support it.
LORD DYNEVOR: I am quite well aware that there was and is great difficulty in actually defining what is a river. I remember the argument on the Bill of 1926, and Lord Bledisloe said then that the kind of river which he wanted in the Bill was one that somebody could jump over. I could not withdraw my Amendment to take out 'river' at that time, because I did not think it possible to put in an Act of Parliament the jumping power of various members of your Lordships' House. Therefore we took out "river" and left an "stream." I suppose it is possible that a stream is a river and a river is a stream, but I do not like to argue it in, the presence of Lord Darling. As, however, the voice of Scotland seems to be rather silent on this subject, I will follow my noble Leader's advice and not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

RESERVOIRS (SAFETY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order); Amendments (Privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

CADET CORPS.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW rose to call attention to the policy of His Majesty's Government towards the Cadet Corps; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I make no apology for bringing this matter before the House to-day, because it has attracted considerable attention in the Press and elsewhere, and is a matter of great importance indeed. It involves a very small sum of money, but the influence which it has upon a large number of boys in the country renders it of such importance as to deserve considerable notice at our hands. I would first of all call your Lordships' attention to pages 60 and 61 of the Army Estimates for the financial year, issued on February 24. On those pages you will see that a sum of £10,700 is provided for grants to the cadets. Four shillings is given for each qualified cadet, and there is a grant of one shilling for each qualified cadet for administrative purposes. Now, the fact that this is included in the Estimates is quite conclusive proof that the Government, when they issued the Estimates on February 24, were not of opinion that arguments existed for the suppression of the cadets on moral and educational grounds—which is the excuse which we have heard since—for those moral and educational grounds were not known to the Government when they issued the Estimates. And, really, those words seem to me to be almost insulting, indeed they would be quite insulting if they were not so absurd. The excuse given seems to me to be so absurd as perhaps to mitigate it, if possible, in its deadliness. Really, it is impossible to believe that the Cadet Corps and the Church Lads Brigade are in any way subversive of morality.
Of course, the whole thing is perfectly ridiculous. Evidently the Government never thought so until Mr. Shaw had certain interviews with members of another place and certain individuals who are members of the National Union of Teachers—at least, that is what we have been told. Whatever the National Union
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of Teachers may say, and whatever other secret advisers of the Government may say, I notice that the Incorporated Association of Headmasters of Public Secondary Schools in England and Wales hold very different opinions from the advisers of the Government—those advisers whose authority on moral and educational values has proved so potent in altering the mind of the Secretary of State for War from his original intention. I understand that that Association contains practically all the headmasters of public schools and secondary schools, both the old ones and the new ones in England and Wales, and it includes all the secondary schools which have cadet corps. This very authoritative body—I do not think any of your Lordships would deny that a body of this kind is very authoritative—profess entire and complete disagreement (and they have published it in the Press officially) with the Secretary of State for War and those who have prompted him to make this change.
I do not think I need weary your Lordships with anything more to show the complete absurdity of this argument, and all I would do is to ask whether these advisers of the Government represent officially anything like so authoritative a body as the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, or indeed, whom they do represent, if they represent anybody beyond themselves? In my four years' experience at the War Office I saw something of the Cadets, and I do not recollect that one single word was ever said against them. I do recollect that a great deal was said in their favour. The very highest praise from all quarters reached us at the War Office as to the educational and moral value of their training.
I should like to quote a statement of Miss Octavia Hill. I do not think anybody could possibly regard her as anything but a pacific person, or as one who would have wished to inculcate belligerent notions. She wrote:
"There is no organization which I have found influence so powerfully for good the boys in such a neighbourhood or gather them in so eagerly as that of the Cadets.… The Cadets learn the duty and dignity of obedience; they get a sense of corporate life and civic duty; they learn to honour the power of endurance and effort; they get exercise which develops their bodies and improves their health, and they come in contact with manly and devoted officers. The summer camp, too, is a great gain."

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Miss Octavia Hill was a woman whose whole life was devoted to social service, and who thoroughly understood what she was talking about. Her opinion, surely, should carry some weight in the counsels of those who have to do with bodies like the Cadets. I should like to quote also the opinion of my late colleague at the War Office, the then Director-General of the Territorial Army, Lt.-Col. Sir Hugh Jeudwine. He says:
"I have never heard anything but praise of Cadets, and of the good the training does them as citizens. I am a profound admirer of them and of those who give up their leisure to training them."
These are the views of two people with great knowledge of this matter.
I now call your attention to another matter, and that is the Memorandum of Mr. Shaw which he issued with the Estimates. On page 7 of that Memorandum your Lordships will see quoted, apparently with pride and satisfaction, the doings and performances and successes of the Cadets during last year, and we are told that no less than 1,678 cadets or ex-cadets joined the Forces. That is 600 more than joined from the Officers Training Corps. But in spite of this, so powerful were the views of certain individuals when they put them before the Secretary of State, that at the very last moment Mr. Shaw was convinced of the error which he had made, and which he had given effect to in the Estimates, and which he apparently laboured under when he wrote his Memorandum; and, with complete equanimity, he executed an entire volte face and made this astonishing announcement in the House of Commons. I wonder that he did not stand in a white sheet, and repent that he had thought of giving money to such an undesirable body as the Cadets or the Church Lads Brigade.
But I am not complaining only of this financial deprivation. Not only are the unfortunate Cadets to be deprived of their humble grant—for it is at the outside only 5s. for each approved cadet—but they are to be officially regarded as an accursed thing. They will have no recognition whatever. They are to be cut adrift from the Territorial Associations in the counties. No Territorial officer apparently is to be deputed to inspect them—they will not be allowed to do that. The affiliation which they enjoyed with Territorial Battalions is to
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disappear. That affiliation was commented upon in high terms by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff the other day after these Estimates were published and before the announcement was made in the other House. And why is it to disappear? What have these unfortunate boys done to be treated like pariahs and outcasts? Are they even to be denied access—I imagine they are if the full policy of the Government is to be carried out—to War Department lands, on which to go to camp and train? Are they to be refused the occasional use of War Office buildings? Are they not to be allowed, as they are at present, to have the loan of equipment which they draw from the War Office but pay for if they damage in any way? Is that to cease as well? I imagine that if the full policy of the Government is carried out it will cease. Of course the Cadet Corps and the Church Lads Brigade will continue. I do not think they will be entirely destroyed by the action of Mr. Shaw. But they will be obliged to curtail some of their amenities and some of their pleasures. I think very likely some of their bands will have to be cut down, in the poorer ones at any rate, and some of the amusements in camp and possibly on some occasions the camp itself will have to be curtailed. When these disabilities overtake them I only hope they will recognise to whom they are indebted therefor.
I should like to ask how far this petty persecution is going to extend. Are the Cadets to be forced to alter their uniforms? Apparently from the statement in another place they are. And, if I understood rightly, it is possible they will be deprived of the right of wearing uniform altogether. Who is to compensate them? After all, they bought the uniforms out of their own pockets, and if you are going to deprive them of the use of them at any rate in common fairness you ought to compensate them for the loss they have sustained. They are not rich, often they are very poor people, and very likely they and their parents have provided these uniforms at, to them, considerable expense.
I come to another point. Am I correct in assuming, as I suppose I am, that the grant which now goes to the Central Council of Territorial Associations for administering Cadet Corps will disappear I suppose it will. If that is the

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case and this is a Territorial economy, why was the Central Council not consulted first? I Your Lordships are aware, I think, that it has been for some time past a recognised procedure to consult the Central Council regarding, and at any rate to inform them of, any economies which were to be effected in the Territorial Army Estimates. But in the case of the Cadets, especially in the case of this administrative section in which the Council are intimately concerned, no notice apparently was sent to them and the matter was never mentioned to them at all, so far as I understand, until they read it in the newspapers after the debate in another place. This is very peculiar. It is the more peculiar because this discourtesy, as I may call it, was a single one. On the other points of economy the Territorial Associations were consulted. Why was this particular matter kept secret until the very end? What necessity was there for doing so?
I do not know that the Central Council were the only ones so treated. I am not at all sure that the Army Council themselves were consulted. At any rate, the Chief of the General Staff did not seem to know anything about it when he made his speech to a number of cadets in Kent, I think it was. I am not sure that the noble Earl opposite knew very much about it, because I understand that he had a very important engagement to present the prizes at the Cadets' Boxing Tournament and at the very last moment he had a pressing engagement elsewhere and was represented by somebody else. I rather think that when he accepted that engagement, and in fact for some considerable time afterwards, he did not know anything about these dreadful moral and educational difficulties which had arisen in the mind of the Secretary of State. Perhaps the advisers of the Government had not been called into conclave when the noble Earl accepted the invitation.
We are accustomed to retrograde measures from the Socialist Party. This is not only a retrograde but a surprising and astonishing measure. It is astonishing, I think, because we hear from members of the Party to which noble Lords opposite belong much about the advantages of fresh air and exercise, of games and camps, of out-of-door recreation, excursions and so on. But when it comes
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to giving a little assistance to no less than 50,743 boys and men, because the officers are included, of whom no less than 19,484 went into camp and gained from their association with the Cadet Corps, and the Church Lads Brigade great moral and educational advantages, they find that they cannot do it. That, I think, is a very peculiar attitude indeed. What becomes of another very favourite saying of the Party to which noble Lords opposite belong—equal opportunities? Your Lordships are aware that a number of schools have Cadet Corps. Some of those would undoubtedly like to have an Officers Training Corps instead of a Cadet Corps; but the number of Officers Training Corps is limited and it is not every school that is able to have one. That we know, and very often they have a Cadet Corps instead. There is no difference in the schools to which I am referring. They are schools of just the same kind although one has an Officers Training Corps and the other a Cadet Corps. But supposing a boy wants to go into the Army and his school has a Cadet Corps, it is an advantage to him because he can get his A certificate and can get the training which is so necessary to fit him to be an officer in the Army. Now he will not be able to get that training, and what becomes of equal opportunities? I do not know whether noble Lords opposite will think that that is an equal opportunity, or what excuse they will make.
Then it is said that it may make your boys wish for war and will encourage a bellicose and belligerent spirit in them. Can one consider for a moment that such an argument is tenable? Is it not really utterly absurd? Can any single case be put forward? I ask the noble Earl opposite whether he can quote a single ease where a boy, from his association with the Church Lads Brigade, has developed a bloodthirsty desire for war. You might just as well say: "I will not take my children to see 'Peter Pan' at Christmas because if I do they might grow up to be bloodthirsty pirates." I think that both arguments are equally ridiculous. I will not keep your Lordships any longer because the hour is late and I know other members of your Lordships' House desire to say something upon this matter, so I beg to move.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I wish to say a word before the noble Earl replies for the Government. I will not deal with the whole question of the Cadet Corps but I feel bound to say a word or two on behalf of other organisations which are equally affected—the Church Lads Brigade and the Boys Brigade. There seems here to be a case of most unworthy prejudice. It is the application of a theory without any regard whatever to the relevant facts of the case. I am not authorised by the Church Lads Brigade to make any protest against the treatment meted out to them. With a wonderfully good spirit they have said that they will accept this change if the country needs the £4,000 a year, and accept it in their customary spirit of patriotism and obedience. But I think they are entitled, certainly from my long connection with them I am entitled, to have some further explanation of the words which the Secretary of State used elsewhere about these brigades. He must have had them in view because he spoke of them in connection with the Cadet Carps.
It is worth while to recall to your Lordships his actual words:—
"… I have come to the conclusion that representations made to me on educational and moral grounds are unanswerable. Teachers in elementary and secondary schools appear to be, in a large majority of cases, against this particular training on educational grounds."
Therefore he feels justified in withdrawing all assistance from the Church Lads Brigade and the Boys Brigade. What educational argument which is unanswerable can there be? The suggestion about the secondary schools is, as Lord Onslow has pointed out, repudiated by the official representatives of the secondary schools in the country. Are objections taken by the teachers, particularly of the elementary schools? A large proportion of the boys in both these brigades join them and are active members of them after they have left the elementary school, and when there is very often no alternative for them even for that physical exercise which we all desire that they should have, except in the streets.
But I let that pass. What I want to know, and I am sure the noble Earl who replies will put us right in this matter, is what does the Secretary of State mean by saying that there are moral objections
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to these brigades that are unanswerable? Does he mean that it is morally objectionable that these boys should be taught to be alert in body and mind, that they should be taught how to be ready to obey and capable of leading? It cannot mean, as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, has said, that the moral objections are unanswerable because these brigades inculcate a spirit of fierce militarism. To one who has known these brigades as I have all my life, the mere statement is preposterous and it ought not to be made. I have spoken now because I very much hope that the noble Earl who is to reply will do something this afternoon and in your Lordships' House to remove that stigma.
I might go further. In the case of these two brigades that I have mentioned, the Church Lads Brigade and the Boys Brigade, not only is there an inculcation of those admirable qualities of discipline, obedience and command, but the whole purpose of those organisations is to lead the boys on to the highest service of all, to which they have pledged themselves in baptism—to be faithful soldiers and servants of the Kingdom of God. It is really rather absurd that it should be said that there are moral objections to these brigades which a Minister of the Crown regards as unanswerable. I regret this expression of opinion and I ask this afternoon for an explanation—and possibly elsewhere the Secretary of State himself to explain what he meant by words publicly used in another place which must necessarily create—I put it mildly—misunderstanding, on the part of those who, for all these years, have done so good a work for the boys of this country. I would go further and would venture to ask, possibly in this place, possibly elsewhere, that these brigades and Cadet Corps should not be cursorily dismissed by the withdrawal of grants—in the case of the Church Lads Brigade only £4,000 a year; and that at least, if it should be done, the doing of it should be accompanied by some words expressing the gratitude which the country owes to those who have given years of voluntary service to the boys of the country.
I will recall to your Lordships what was said the other day by Field-Marshal Sir Claud Jacob on behalf of the Church Lads Brigade and their services to the country—how, when such service was much

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needed, 25,000 of these boys were serving; how they had a battalion of their own which had a high record both of achievement and of conduct, and how they contributed no less than 22 to the glorious number of those who were awarded the Victoria Cross. I say nothing of the 1,500,000 who have passed through the Church Lads Brigade, and what I say of the Church Lads Brigade is equally true of the Boys Brigade. They have contributed to the virile and healthy-minded citizenship of the country. I venture to ask that these arguments shall not be dismissed by the mere withdrawal of the grants, but that the suspicion that there are moral objections to their life and their conduct be removed, and that some words of gratitude be expressed for the admirable work that they have done.
VISCOUNT ALLENBY: My Lords, I take a great interest in this matter. I have the honour to be President of the Public Secondary Schools Cadet Association, and lately I became Chairman of the Joint Committee of that Association and the Incorporated Association of Headmasters. Your Lordships may imagine, therefore, that I know something of the feeling in those associations regarding this terrible blow that has fallen upon us. The Cadet organisation, I believe, nearly dropped out during the Great War. It was saved by the courage and patriotism of some schoolmasters, who banded themselves together and kept the movement alive, creating certain funds which were afterwards supplemented by Government grant. Thus was saved the life of this movement. The Public Secondary Schools Association, of which I am President, was founded, I think, in 1915. There were a few hundreds then, and there is now a membership of over 11,000, and its headmasters are all members of the Incorporated Headmasters Association.
The Cadets are of the same age as the junior members of the Officers Training Corps, and we do our best to train them on the same lines as the Officers Training Corps. Last year we had a camp at Marlborough and had nearly 2,000 present at it. The masters attend our annual camp. We had hoped, and we still hope, to have another camp this year, at which the number attending will probably be greater. The camps are all directed,
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managed and organised by the headmasters and the assistant masters of the schools. I think there are something like 80 schools in the association. During the last camp we had 61 schools represented on Marlborough Downs, and I can testify to the value of those camps. Personally, I know something about training, and I can testify to the value of this training morally, mentally and physically. I wish some of your Lordships would come down and see them in camp. We have had a good many visits from influential people to these camps, and nothing but admiration has been expressed for them. You could not see a keener, happier and fitter lot of boys anywhere. I am sure that our standard of efficiency is no whit less than that attained by the Officers Training Corps. We are not envious of them, but they surpass us in no way except perhaps in wealth and social prestige.
To those who have shall be given! I suppose they receive six times the amount of grant that the boys of our public secondary schools receive, and even the little that we get is to be taken away from us. It is a very small sum indeed that is spent as insurance for this body of potential officers, because these boys of ours are potential officers in emergency, and we have now 11,000 of them. I think that the small grant for these boys is the cheapest bargain ever made. Our boys receive certainly the elements of military training, but there is no compulsion upon them to join the corps, and they cannot be accused of militarism. I was called a militarist the other day. I have also been called at various times a pacifist and a defeatist, but I do not pay much attention to the names that we are called. It is, however, discouraging to these boys and to the officers who are headmasters and assistant masters and give up two or three weeks of their scanty holidays to live in camp with these boys. They live in camp in the same way as the boys, subject to the same discomforts and taking part in the same amusements, and there is a thoroughly good feeling between them and the cadets.
These cadets learn in camp, as has been said, the virtues of citizenship. They are disciplined, they are taught to work together, they are taught to think with each other, they are taught self-respect, self-control and self-reliance, and taught

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to be, I hope, men who will take their places in the world of men. The Public Secondary Schools Association are so convinced of the great value to the nation of this movement that even if we lose our money we shall try to carry on; but we do beg for official recognition. Without official recognition, we are in danger of extinction. If we have official recognition, we have, as the noble Earl, the mover of the Motion has said, permission to borrow such things as tents and camp equipment, which we cannot afford to buy ourselves or even to hire. If we are assured of official recognition, we may, I hope, carry on at any rate for a year. We may be able to have our camp this year to which all the officers and cadets are looking forward with great eagerness, but if we lose that recognition I am afraid our case is desperate.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I should like to say a few words to support in the strongest possible way the words that have fallen from my noble friend Lord Onslow with regard to the Cadets. I know something about the work that they do and about the value that cadets were to the regiment I commanded for many years. I am convinced of the great value of the Cadet Corps to the country. It is extraordinarily difficult to understand the motives of His Majesty's Government in perpetrating what I call a mean and contemptible pettifogging action. If it is an economy, it is only an economy of £10,700 in a Budget which will amount to something like £850,000,000. It is unworthy of the country, unworthy of the Government, and it is calculated to make every Englishman ashamed of the Government and of his country if the country supports the Government in this.
We all know the good which these corps do in these days, when one of the things which we are trying to counteract is the tendency to develop what is known as hooliganism in the streets and everything possible in the way of disrespect of authority and of everything else. Yet, just because a few masters—who I conclude come from that tribe who seem to cultivate a sort of diseased mentality which sees red the moment they see anything approaching or pertaining to military formation—come and object to this thing, then we have this action on the part of His Majesty's Government. I sincerely
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hope that there will be a strong expression from the country on the subject, and I cannot help thinking that His Majesty's Government will find that they have made a very great mistake—the appearance of these boys when they come home from camps up and down the country is evidence of the good they do—and that mistake will re-echo through the country and will make itself felt at the next Election. I sincerely hope that wiser counsels may yet prevail on the part of the War Office and that we may still see a continuance of the grant to the Cadet Corps.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, the position of His Majesty's Government is quite definite on this matter.
Several NOBLE LORDS: "Shame."
EARL DE LA WARR: It is perfectly true that there was no mention of it in the Estimates, but I do not think that the noble Earl will contend that we are not entitled to initiate any form of policy once the Estimates for the year are concluded. Of course, no sooner have we concluded preparation of the Estimates than we go on to the preparation of other items of policy. This was the first matter to be considered. I say that our position is quite definite. We believe that military training for a number of boys, the vast majority, or at any rate a very large majority of whom are under sixteen—they can join when they are 12—is definitely undesirable.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: Ridiculous.
EARL DE LA WARR: We are living today in times when we talk a great deal about the League of Nations. Is it really contended that it is necessary for the security of the nation to get hold of boys at twelve years of age and train them?
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: Yes.
EARL DE LA WARR: Well, we say it is wrong.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Will the noble Earl allow me to say that as far as the Church Lads Brigade is concerned it has nothing to do directly with the defence of the nation? It has to do with the building up of the boy's characters.
EARL DE LA WARR: I will come to the point of the most rev. Primate in a moment. It is really very difficult to tackle this question at all.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: You do not like it. You are up against it.
EARL DE LA WARR: It is very difficult, for this reason. On the one hand we are told that there is nothing military about these Corps, and then we are told by the noble Viscount, Lord Allenby, that they constitute one of the greatest reserves of officers in this country. Which is it to be?
EARL PEEL: Both.
EARL DE LA WARR: Well, I will endeavour, if you will allow me, to answer you on both points. If it is to be military training, then I say we consider it undesirable to get hold of boys at that impressionable age and train them in the use of arms. For that reason—
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: May I ask why it was desirable on February 24 and not now?
EARL DE LA WARR: We had not time in the first eight or nine months of office to decide on every item of policy. We have to take things in their turn. Therefore on this ground it was decided to stop the grant to the Cadet Corps and the official Government recognition of Cadet Corps at once. At the same time that that announcement was made my right hon. friend in the House of Commons pledged himself to meet all the liabilities that had been incurred by the Cadet Corps. It was discovered on going further into the matter that they really had all incurred very great liabilities, if not their total liabilities, for the coming camping season. Under this pledge they would receive most of the money which was due to them, but it was decided by my right hon. friend, in order that there should be no complaint whatsoever that he had dealt with them hastily or unfairly, to continue the grant until October 31. From that date the grant will be withdrawn, recognition will be withdrawn, arms will have to be given up, and no new uniform will be served out or allowed. They will be permitted to wear out existing uniforms, but without military badges or any other military marks. This is exactly the same step—as I may remind your Lordships who feel that the Empire is now being imperilled—as was taken in 1922 by the noble Earl, Lord Derby. The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, has asked us why we did not con-
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sult the Central Council of the Territorial Associations. Lord Derby did not do so in 1922.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: The new arrangements were not made in those days.
EARL DE LA WARR: The Central Council of Territorial Associations was in existence, and Lord Derby could perfectly well have communicated with them. So much for the question of procedure and the way in which this decision will be carried out. It has been contended by the most rev. Primate and I think by all noble Lords who have spoken—indeed I thought I heard sounds of laughter when I talked about military training—that there is no real military training given spite of what the noble Viscount, Lord Allenby, said, and that the main objection of noble Lords to the withdrawal of this grant is on social and educational grounds. I admit of course that these cadet units do carry out a great deal of useful and desirable work. No one would attempt to deny that. But if your Lordships really contend that the work of these Cadet Corps is social work and not military work, why should your Lordships suggest that they can only be carried on by means of a grant from the War Office? These Cadet Corps are not going to be abolished, or to be, as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow said, accursed. The Boy Scouts, with a very much larger membership than the Cadet forces, do not receive any recognition or grant from the War Office. Are they "accursed"? Of course they are not. What about all the boys' clubs in the East End? Must they receive support from the War Office? Are they "accursed" The withdrawal of this grant and of the recognition that goes with it will not render these bodies, as the noble Lord in very exaggerated language said, "accursed." We have been told by the representatives of the largest portions of these forces that they are going to carry on. They will not even be abolished.
What, therefore, is the position? As I see it, it is perfectly clear, and the case of the War Office is perfectly clear. We have to make up our minds, and your Lordships have to make up your minds, whether this is military training or not. If the answer is that it is military training, we say that it is undesirable at that

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age. If you say that it is not military training, then we contend that this is not proper military expenditure, and that we should bring the work that these Cadet units have performed into line with a great deal of other work that I have mentioned, such as that of the Boy Scouts and boys' clubs in the East End. The problem must be tackled as a whole.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Lord one question? He said just now that it was the War Office that decided that this training at that age was undesirable. What does he actually mean by the War Office? Is it the War Office or His Majesty's Government?
EARL DE LA WARR: I mean my right hon. friend the Secretary of State, who is responsible for policy at the War Office. This work can go on, and actually at the present moment, since your Lordships feel that it is not only on social and educational grounds that you object to the grant being cut off, under Section 17 of the Education Act, 1918, local educational authorities can provide assistance for non-military organisations for boys to go to camp. Surely that meets a very large part of the case that the most rev. Primate has made. I think he particularly mentioned these annual camps for boys, and I sympathise with him. It is undoubtedly desirable that as many of these boys as possible should get away into the country at least once a year to camp. I have pointed out to your Lordships that, under existing provisions of the Education Act, boys who are in schools can perfectly well be sent away into camp with public assistance from the Board of Education, but they will not be provided with His Majesty's uniform or with arms or rifles. If noble Lords feel that more assistance is needed for this social work of sending boys away to camp, then I have no doubt that His Majesty's Government would consider any suggestion.
I must say that t gives great pleasure and surprise to some of us—no, I will not say "surprise"—to notice this enthusiasm on the other side for social and educational work. We also are keen on these ventures, and I hope that very shortly, if Parliamentary time permits, we shall have an opportunity of giving your Lordships a chance of proving your enthusiasm for the children of this
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country by putting before you a Bill for raising the school-leaving age to fifteen.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: What has that to do with it?
EARL DE LA WARR: It has a great deal to do with your Lordships' enthusiasm for social and educational work for these boys. Meanwhile, the decision about the Cadets must stand. We recognse the social value of the work that they have performed, and I most gladly pay a tribute to those public-spirited men—with different ideas from ours, but public-spirited none the less—who have given so much of their time to this work. I most earnestly hope that the social and educational part of the work will continue. But in future these bodies must stand on their own feet, as social bodies, just like the other bodies, such as Boy Scouts and boys' clubs, which carry on similar work.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, my desire in saying a few words on this subject is to preserve that coolness and dignity that is appropriate to this House. I think that the noble Earl is still young enough to be thoroughly ashamed of the speech that he has addressed to us.
EARL DE LA WARR: Not a bit.
EARL PEEL: I know that sometimes Under-Secretaries have to deliver defences of a chief when they are not perhaps entirely in sympathy with their chief's policy, and I venture to hope, for the sake of the moral regeneration of the noble Earl himself, that he is not entirely in sympathy with that which the Secretary of State for War has said. I observe further that we have not heard a single word of defence from the noble Earl of the charges made by the Secretary for War against these associations. Very definite and very serious charges have been made by the Minister for War—charges that he says were so strong that he was obliged to agree with them—about the educational and moral injury that was done to these boys by these associations. That was the charge levelled publicly in Parliament by the Secretary of State for War against a large number of boys and other persons who are doing their best to carry on these associations. I do not ask for an explanation from the noble Earl, because I think he has not been instructed to give one, but I do think that, when

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the Secretary of State for War, in the great position that he holds in the Government and in the country, brings a definite charge of that kind against these bodies and associations, he ought at least to try to have the manliness to stand up and explain what he means and, if necessary, to bring his witnesses into the open.
Apparently he has not consulted anybody. If these charges are so grave, why does he not consult the Central Council of Territorial Associations? Why does he not even consult the Army Council? Has he consulted anybody? I gravely doubt it. He tells us that certain representations have been made by certain teachers, I think from the elementary schools or from the National Union of Teachers. Are we not entitled to know what those charges are? Are we not entitled, before you destroy these valuable and useful associations, to know what crime they have committed? Cannot these people come forward and substantiate the charges? Surely everybody knows that when a charge is made the defendant should at least have some chance of replying, but in this case the charge is locked up secretly in the bosom of the Secretary of State for War, and not a single member of the Government Bench opposite dares to get up and say what the charges are.
Who has been consulted? The Secretary of State apparently consults those gentlemen who have no knowledge of the subject at all. He cannot have consulted the Incorporated Society of Headmasters, because they are unanimously in favour of this training. I suppose he wanted to consult somebody who would agree with the preconceived notions which he had. I say that this is a foul slander passed by the Secretary of State upon these bodies, and I challenge him, either in another place or elsewhere, to substantiate the charges or withdraw them. I can add my humble testimony to the work done by these bodies, because I was for three years at the War Office after the War, responsible for these associations and these grants. With my noble friend behind me, we cover seven of the ten or eleven years which have elapsed since the War, and I think our testimony can be put against that of Mr. Shaw, who has only been at the War Office for three-parts of a year.
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I am quite sure that there is no substance in or basis for the charge that has been made. Never during the time that I was at the War Office did anybody, whether schoolmaster or conscientious objector or passive resister, come and make any such charge. The noble Earl tried to make some point as to whether these Corps were purely educational, or whether they had some military advantage. Let me say what happened at the end of the War, because at that time three of the Departments of the Government took great interest in these bodies. They were, in their particular order, the Education Office, the Home Office and the Ministry for War. The Education Office took great interest in them because of their educational value; the Home Office were interested because of the discipline; and the War Office, although I do not say that the military attainments of these Corps were very high, yet urged them to go on with their work because, in view of the difficulties of employment after the War, of the great value which in after life their discipline and training would prove to be to them. That was the high position in which these bodies were held while the great struggle was going on.
I hope and trust that there is some military value in these associations. I was listening the other day to a debate in the House of Commons, and the complaint of the Secretary for War was that he was very short of men to enlist in the Army. It is true that he said: "I suppose while you have an Army you must have men in it," but he was complaining of the difficulty of finding men for enlistment. Now we are told by hard statistics what numbers of these lads at a later stage do join the Army. I do not know whether it is militarism to join the Army, and whether he deliberately wants to cut off the supply of soldiers for the Army. Anyhow, if he is so anxious to get recruits it seems, from a military point of view, rather stupid to cut off one of the sources which has supplied in the last few years a number of recruits. I wish to bear personal testimony to the value which these lads get from their training in obtaining after employment. We have seen the numbers of unemployed rising higher and higher since the Socialist Government came into office. We were told that they were going to reduce unemployment. Unfortunately that has

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not happened and we see the numbers going to something like 1,600,000. I understand that the Government put it down to world causes, and not to themselves, but, whatever the cause, surely you ought to do everything you can to assist people to get employment, and if this training leads to discipline and self-control, which increase the chance of employment later, surely it is very petty to put your fist upon these associations, smash them all up, and take away this additional opportunity for lads to obtain employment in after life.
I do not know what the Government are going to do. Apparently they say that this rather hastily taken resolution is going to be adhered to. I am not pleading so much for the money—although the idea of the Socialist Government trying to save £10,000 a year is so humorous, when we see them squandering hundreds of thousands elsewhere—but what these bodies want are the status and the feeling that they are recognised by the Government, through the War Office, that their sacrifices are recognised, and that the great advantage which is given to the lads of the country is also recognised. The blow which the Government has dealt them is a cruel blow, it is a mean blow, and it is unnecessary. It is really hitting these small institutions below the belt. I do not know why it is done, or what crime these people have committed, but I do know this, that it will be a source of great satisfaction to all that horde of passive resisters, conscientious objectors and other degenerates who give it support.
LORD LEIGH: My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to make a few remarks on this subject from what may be called a county point of view. For several years now since the War there has been an expedition abroad of cadets drawn from various districts of England and Scotland, to the number of about a thousand. The expeditions have been organised by the Warwickshire Territorial Association, and have been recognised by the War Office. But the expense to the taxpayer has been, if any at all, infinitesimal, as there has been a contribution for expenses from each of those taking part in the expeditions. The expeditions have been to Brussels, Malo les Bains, Cambrai and other places, and have lasted about ten days. In the
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various towns that have formed the headquarters of the cadets the greatest interest has been shown in them by the inhabitants and by the municipalities, and the most cordial relations have been established between them and the cadets, which is certainly all for good, and the conduct of the cadets has been invariably exemplary. I may mention that at Brussels the cadets had the honour of being inspected by His Majesty the King of the Belgians.
I cannot stress too much the excellent effect and power for good that these expeditions have on the cadets, both on the older and the younger, and it will certainly be infinitely regrettable should the Government cease to recognise the cadet units affiliated to the Territorial Army. As the Secretary of the Warwickshire Territorial Association remarks:
"The Cadet Force plays an important part in the training of youth by inculcating discipline, self-reliance, leadership, and mental and bodily alertness."
And he adds:
"I feel certain that there will be a widespread feeling of resentment, both among the boys and the parents, at the slight placed upon them by the severance of the connection with the Territorial Army."
LORD SWAYTHLING: My Lords, at this hour I do not wish to detain you long, but as treasurer of one of the largest of the voluntary organisations affected by the threatened withdrawal of the Cadet grant, I feel I cannot let the opportunity pass of supporting the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. The Secretary of State for War has stated in another place that the Cadet Force is of no military value. I find it impossible to reconcile that view with the facts. How can one say that the training of character, the inculcation of ideals of patriotism and the development of physical fitness, have "no potential military value"? This organisation would appear to me to possess not only military value, but a great social value. The Cadet force—I speak particularly of that portion of it which is not directly concerned with schools—supplies a want in the community, if the well-being of poorer sections of society is not to be made to suffer. As an alternative to idleness and pleasure-seeking in the streets or undesirable places, units of the Cadet force offer a valuable training ground for the youth of the country.

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We are not only deeply concerned, but also deeply perplexed at the reasons given for the withdrawal of the Cadet grant. We do not claim the right to official recognition, indispensable as that might be as a military organisation; but as a body successfully tackling a problem of real national importance—of turning out sturdy, self-reliant and respected citizens—it would appear that even if the War Office cannot recognise the military value of which I have spoken, this comparatively small sum would be saved to the country over and over again if given through the Ministry of Health or the Board of Education. When compared with the large sums spent on other Social Services this sum seems to be almost negligible, and yet the return is enormous.
One of the greatest assets of the Cadet movement, particularly in the case of the Boys Brigades, is the immense personal service and influence of the officers and those who work in the movement. The money required to keep the movement going is necessary, and if the officers who devote their time and energy freely to this great work have to collect still more money than they do at present, it goes without saying that they will not have so much time to devote to the more important branches of their work, and some small units may even find it impossible to continue. The Boys Brigades furnish, besides physical drill and training, opportunities for boys of the poorer classes to enjoy all forms of recreation—swimming, boxing, cricket, football, shooting, etc., which would otherwise be denied to them. There are also indoor activities — gymnasium, library, etc. They have interesting lectures provided, and other educational facilities, and they are helped to find employment. In short, the brigades help, by their training, both mental and physical, to turn out good citizens and to build up an A 1 nation.
But by far the most important work that is done is the provision of the yearly camp. Cadet Lieutenant-Colonel Ashdown in The Times a few days ago pointed out that even if the money grant is withdrawn His Majesty's Government ought still to loan equipment for camping and make provision for camping sites. Boys who go to camp are given ten days of disciplined yet enjoyable holiday by the
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sea, during which time the officers have greater opportunities than during the rest of the year of getting to know their boys well, and helping to mould their characters. If any of your Lordships could see these boys who come from some of the poorest parts of London coming to camp pasty-faced and seedy-looking little specimens, and returning ten days later brown, jolly and healthy, you would not fail to see immediately what a wonderful thing it is for them. They are boys who would otherwise very probably be unable to have a holiday at all. Those of them who can do so contribute to the cost according to their means, but some are unable to pay anything. No boy, I might say, in the organisation with which I am familiar, has ever been refused to be taken to camp because he is too poor to pay anything.
The camp equipment costs the country nothing. The units concerned have to provide transport facilities from the military depot to the camping ground and back, and have to insure against loss, so that all risk is obviated, and there can be no cost whatsoever to the national finances. I cannot conceive what possible advantage there can be to this country to withhold this privilege from the Cadet force. It costs the country nothing, yet if the Cadet force had to find its own camping equipment and grounds, the expense, which is considerably above the money grant given, would become prohibitive. I earnestly urge His Majesty's Government to reconsider the question, and to continue the support, both in money and loan of equipment to the Cadet force, in order to enable this force to carry on the important work which it is doing.
EARL DE LA WARR: It is only by your Lordships' permission that I can add one word. There was one point raised by the most rev. Primate which, I gather, I did not quite clearly answer, and that was his point as to what we meant by moral and educational reasons, which he felt cast an aspersion on the work that these schoolmasters and other public-spirited men have been performing. Let me make it quite clear that when moral and educational reasons were referred to it was simply the feeling of objection to instilling military ideas into them.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I think you will agree with me that we have not had a very satisfactory explanation from His Majesty's Government of the reasons for which they have thought fit to take this step, and, as for the explanation of moral and educational values just given to us, it does not take us very much further than we were before. I asked the noble Earl several questions but he has not given me many answers. From what he has said I gather that the Cadets are to be persecuted. That is the substance of the explanation we have had from the Government. But we do not know who the instigators of the persecution are. My noble friend Lord Peel did his best to elicit from noble Lords opposite who these secret advisers of the Secretary of State are. They are described as certain Members of Parliament and certain members of the National Union of Teachers. It has been carefully left out that they in any way officially represented the National Union of Teachers, or, indeed, anybody but themselves, and so I must take it that these nameless advisers whose identity is so very carefully concealed are persons whose authority is entirely self-constituted.
I am sorry the noble Earl has gone away, but I know that a public engagement calls him. He asked: "Do you say that these Cadets and the Church Lads Brigade are necessary from a military point of view?" I say from both points of view, because the same virtues are necessary in a soldier as in a civilian, and the training they get fits them equally well for civil and military life. I have been too long acquainted with public affairs to be easily moved either to enthusiasm or the reverse by the tergiversations and antics of politicians, but I must confess that the vindictive treatment of these poor boys inspires me with some indignation and I really do not know which is the more contemptible—the ineptitude of the measures which the Government have thought fit to take against them, or the lameness of their excuses. I think the present Secretary of State will go down to history as the Minister who promoted disarmament by persecuting the Church Lads Brigade and the Boys Brigade.
On Question, Motion for Papers agreed to.

TERRITORIAL ARMY TRAINING.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question that stands in my name.
[The Question was as follows: To ask His Majesty's Government how much money will be saved by the recent War Office decision to curtail the number of permanent staff instructors with Territorial Army units.]
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I have to answer this Question on behalf of my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for War who has been called away on important public business. The cost of the permanent staff instructors with Territorial Army Infantry Battalions, who are being reduced, would amount to approximately £16,000 in a normal year. These instructors will return to their own Regular units and, as a result, there will only be a small immediate saving on such matters as lodging and other allowances. My noble friend endeavoured to make it clear in the previous discussion of this question that the reductions arose from a review of the establishments of instructors and have not been made merely in order to save money. The revised establishments have been carefully worked out with due regard to training requirements and proper administration. An assurance has already been given that cases in which difficulties arise will be carefully considered. It is not anticipated that the difficulties which have been prophesied will arise to any serious extent. But that can only be a matter for experience, and will be determined by the working of the revised establishment in practice. I suggest that we ought to have at least a year's trial before we come to any decision. In any case, I am advised that the War Office will very carefully watch the working of the training under the revised establishment.
I am further informed definitely that there is no truth in the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Peel, in a recent debate on this question, that this reduction of establishments represents a case of sacrificing the Territorial Army for the benefit of the Regulars. There is no truth in that. Whatever may have been the position when the noble Earl, Lord Peel, was at the War Office, the attitude of the Regular Army is now in-

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creasingly influenced by a recognition of the importance of the Territorial Army. Assistance by Regular units and depots is being freely given. The number of courses in which Territorial personnel participate is increased; and this year, I am informed, special facilities for training are being provided at the expense of the Regulars. It is a mistake, therefore, to attempt in any way to play off one against the other in this matter.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his very full reply to the Question I asked and for other matters as well. But the upshot of his reply to my Question is that no particular saving is being made by these reductions.
LORD MARLEY: Not this year.

RENFREWSHIRE UPPER DISTRICT (EASTWOOD AND MEARNS) WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Renfrew-shire Upper District (Eastwood and Mearns) water; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 23 and reported from the Committee.
House adjourned at a quarter past seven o'clock.

EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; wad (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (BLANDFORD FORUM EXTENSION) BILL.
Referred to the Examiners.
UNITED KINGDOM TEMPERANCE AND GENERAL PROVIDENT INSTITUTION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with;
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (Barry and Scarborough).
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Coquet Fisheries Provisional Order.
And also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Torquay and Paignton Traction [H.L.],

Bristol Corporation (No. 1),

East Surrey Water,

Leeds Corporation,

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Metropolitan Railway,

Rochdale Corporation (No. 1),

Tees Valley Water.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
WALSALL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WEST BROMWICH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
WEDNESBURY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SUTTON COLDFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL.
BARNSLEY AND DISTRICT TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House, That in pursuance of the powers given him by Standing Order No. 97, he had appointed the Lord Manners as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Wavertree.

DERBY CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 25th of March last discharged, and Bill committed for Thursday next.
SUTTON COLDFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 12th and 25th of March last discharged, and Bill committed for Thursday next.
BRISTOL CATTLE MARKET BILL.
Report from His Majesty's Attorney-General received and ordered to lie on the Table.