Sitting of 16 July 1929

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Birmingham Corporation (General Powers) Bill [Lords].
Bill to be read a Second time.
Romford Gas Bill [Lords],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on the Bill have leave to sit and proceed upon Thursday."— [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Major COLFOX: May we have some information as to what this really means I Many of us are quite in the dark as to the purport of the suspension of this Standing Order.
The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Robert Young): The reason for wishing to suspend this Standing Order is simply to abridge the waiting period between two stages of the Bill.
Major COLFOX: But can the hon. Gentleman give us any reason why it is necessary to abridge the waiting period and why the ordinary procedure should not be carried out?
Mr. YOUNG: I thought that would have been apparent to the hon. and gallant Member. It is because the House is rising very shortly.
Commander WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Gentleman give us any precedent for this precedure?
Major COLFOX: Could not the Bill be carried over until the autumn? May I not have an answer to my question?
Mr. SPEAKER: The course now being taken is a very ordinary procedure.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on the Bill have leave to sit and proceed upon Thursday.— [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
London Electric, Metropolitan District, and City and South London Railway Companies Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 32, 211, and 237 be suspended, and that the Committee on the Bill hare leave to sit and proceed on Thursday.— [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill,
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  AYR BUEGH ORDER CONFTEMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Ayr Burgh," presented by Mr. Secretary Adamson, read the First time, and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 24th July, and to be printed. [Bill 10.]
  FALKIRK AND DISTRICT TRACTION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisiona Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Falkirk and District Traction," presented by Mr. Secretary Adamson; read the First time, and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 24th July, and to be printed. [Bill 11.]

  LANARKSHIRE, RENFREWSHIRE, AND DUM- BARTONSHIRE EDUCATION AUTHORITIES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL,
  "to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, and Dumbartonshire Education Authorities," presented by Mr.

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  Secretary Adamson; read the First time, and ordered (under Section 9 of the Act) to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 24th July, and to be printed. [Bill 12.]

NEW WRIT.
For Borough of Preston, in the room of Sir William Allen Jowitt, K.C. (Chiltern Hundreds).— [Sir R. Hutchison.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKINGS.
    Major NATHANasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in connection with His Majesty's Government's plans for the reduction of unemployment, he has taken or proposes to take any and, if so, what action to accelerate the carrying out of the work of the Electricity Commissioners?
    The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. J. H. Thomas): My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and I are in close consultation on the matters with the Electricity Commissioners and we have met them within the last few days. I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are at least two important electricity schemes in Lincolnshire which need to be carried out?
    Mr. THOMAS: From our first talk, I should think that there are 200.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I am very glad that there are 200 in Lincolnshire—
    HON. MEMBERS: Speech!

    RIVER SEVERN (ROAD BRIDGE).
    Mr. LANGasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in considering schemes for the creation of employment, he will give consideration to the demand in South Wales for a road bridge over the River Severn; and if he is prepared to make a statement on the subject?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I have been asked to reply. I am prepared to consider any useful schemes of this character for which adequate financial support from local authorities is forthcoming. The problem of road communications across the Severn cannot, however, be dissociated from the wider question of the Severn Barrage which is now being studied.

    ROAD SCHEMES.
    Mr. MANSFIELDasked the Lord Privy Seal if his attention has been called to the dangerous hill, known as Kilton Mill Bank, in the Cleveland district of the North Riding of Yorkshire, which is a danger to motorists and pedestrians; and if he will consider including the improvement of this road in his unemployment scheme, particulars of which have been submitted to the Ministry of Labour by the local unemployment committee?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply to this question. An offer of a grant of 50 percent, of an estimated expenditure of £14,000 was made to the county council in August, 1927, for the improvement of Kilton Valley Road, which comprises the hill in question, but was not accepted. I am prepared to consider a scheme for the improvement of this road if the highway authorities concerned will submit their proposals in response to the recently issued circular which sets out the terms on which assistance can now be rendered from the Road Fund towards the cost of approved works on Class I and Class II roads.
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIRasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he intends that progress should be made in the Highlands of Scotland with road improvements which have been interrupted; whether he is aware that it has been stated by the Ministry of Transport in Edinburgh that the applications for special grants have been so heavy that they had exhausted the funds at the disposal of the Ministry of Transport; and that a large amount of urgent work could be undertaken immediately if 100 percent, grants in some cases and a larger number of 75 per cent grants in other cases were available?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. It is my intention to encourage local authorities to promote works of road improvement in the Highlands of Scotland, as well as other parts of the country, and I issued last week a circular on the subject to local authorities. My Divisional Road Engineers have also been instructed to discuss with local authorities proposals for the reconstruction of further sections of the main trunk roads as an extension of the Trunk Road Programme launched by the Labour Government in 1924. I am not aware of the statement attributed to the "Ministry of Transport in Edinburgh."
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Does the circular refer to unclassified roads as well as to roads in Classes 1 and 2?
    Mr. MORRISON: No, Sir. Unclassified roads are affected by the Local Government Act of 1929 and are subject to special negotiations in each case.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the hon. Gentleman take care that when negotiations take place between the local authorities and the Minister of Transport these matters will be dealt with?
    Mr. MORRISON: Certainly. The unclassified roads are not outside our consideration. The Government are perfectly prepared to consider any proposals made by local authorities.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Will the hon. Gentleman take care to see that Scotland does not get a higher grant than other parts of the country?

    CHANNEL TUNNEL.
    Sir HUGH O'NEILLasked the Lord Privy Seal what course the Government propose to adopt with reference to the Channel Tunnel project?
    Mr. THOMAS: I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply given on this subject on Thursday, 4th July, of which I am sending him a copy.

    NORTH AND SOUTH SHIELDS (RIVER COMMUNICATION).
    Mr. WEST RUSSELLasked the Lord Privy Seal whether a new cross-river communication between North and South Shields forms part of the Government's proposals to deal with unemployment
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    on Tyneside; and, if so, whether he can indicate the stage the proposal has reached?
    Mr. EDEasked the Lord Privy Seal if his attention has been called to the need for a bridge or tunnel connection between the boroughs of South Shields and Tynemouth; and if he is prepared to consider a proposal to meet this need among the schemes for dealing with the relief of unemployment?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. My attention has been called in general terms to the need for improved communications across the lower Tyne. I understand that the matter is now under consideration by the North and South Tyneside Joint Town Planning Committee, but no definite proposals have reached me.
    Mr. EDE: Is the bon. Member aware that the County Borough of South Shields is not represented on that committee, and will he undertake to receive their representations separately from those of the committee, if they desire to tender them?
    Mr. MORRISON: If the county borough is not represented on the Joint Town Planning Committer. I shall be happy to consider any representations that they may care to make.

    MID-SCOTLAND CANAL SCHEME.
    Mr. SINKINSONasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in his schemes for employment, he will consider the formation of a Mid-Scotland canal capable of carrying the heaviest of our shipping?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. This project has already been suggested to me as one for inquiry, and I am looking into it.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' SCHEMES.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can give the amounts of value of schemes before the Unemployment Grants Committee in total and for England, Scotland and Wales, respectively; and whether he has any evidence that the regulations regarding the employment of a certain percentage of transferred labour is hindering local authorities from presenting schemes?
    Mr. THOMAS: The estimated total value of the schemes at present before the Committee for consideration is £5,470,000, made up as follows:

    £

    England

    …

    …

    …

    4,973,000

    Scotland

    …

    …

    …

    81,000

    Wales

    …

    …

    …

    416,000

    In regard to the last part of the question, it should be understood that the condition as to the employment of transferred labour applies in certain areas only, and that the object in offering the grant to these areas is to secure the transfer of labour. Accordingly, while it is no doubt the case that some of these areas would prefer to have the grant without the condition, this is obviously not practicable It has been decided, however, that some greater degree of elasticity will be introduced as regards the application of the condition in particular cases.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Are these all new schemes, or are they schemes which were being considered by the late Government?
    Mr. THOMAS: The hon. and gallant Member is mixing up the whole thing. These are not schemes put forward by the Government, but schemes submitted by the municipalities. I am urging all of them to send them up as soon as possible.

    CANALS.
    Mr. BECKETTasked the Lord Privy Seal whether any schemes are being considered for the reconditioning of the canals of this country?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. This matter is being considered, and I am in communication with canal undertakers on the subject.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I suppose all these projects will be considered by the Treasury before we are committed to expenditure?
    Mr. MORRISON: The right hen. and gallant Gentleman will know that the Departments do not incur expenditure without consulting the Treasury.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when I asked the Chancellor
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    of the Exchequer two or three days ago he informed me that he was unable to give any useful estimate as to the cost of these schemes? Will he therefore, take an early opportunity of getting some kind of estimate of what these schemes in the interest of the unemployed are going to cost?
    Mr. THOMASIn introducing the Money Resolution this afternoon, I will deal with that aspect of the question.
    Mr. SMITHERS: But the Money Resolution only refers to guarantees and not to capital expenditure.
    Mr. THOMAS: The Money Resolution deals with both loans and interest. It is very wide indeed.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is prepared to examine the schemes submitted to the late Government and to their predecessors in 1924 on the subject of canal development in the Midlands and, in particular, the improvement of the waterway between Birmingham and Worcester; and if he will receive a deputation representative of the various interests concerned?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. If the responsible authorities will furnish me with particulars of any proposals which they wish to discuss, I shall be glad to consider the question of arranging to receive a deputation.

    COOKHAM BRIDGE.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in his search for useful work for the unemployed, he will consider the desirability of relieving Cookham Bridge of the toll and of reconstructing it to enable it to take heavier traffic?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply and would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave him on the 9th July. With regard to the strengthening or rebuilding of weak bridges, I issued a Circular to all local authorities on the 5th July, 1929, setting forth the terms of assistance which can be given from the Road Fund in approved cases, but until some arrangements have been reached for freeing Cookham Bridge from tolls, it is premature to discuss its reconstruction.
    Sir A. KNOX: Will the hon. Gentleman realise that the chief obstacle to the county council taking action in this case is the fear that they would be faced with a demand for increasing the strength of the bridge?
    Mr. MORRISON: If the hon. and gallant Member will draw the attention of the county council to the Bridges Act, 1929, and the circular I have sent out, I think he will find something helpful.

    HOUSING SCHEMES (ENGLISH-MADE STEEL LATHING).
    Sir GEORGE HAMILTONasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can arrange with the Minister of Health to utilise English-made steel lathing instead of imported wood lathing in all his new housing schemes, on the same lines as he is proposing to utilise steel sleepers?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Miss Lawrence): I have been asked to reply. The Minister of Health is prohibited by Section 10 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, from imposing any condition which would prevent materials required for any State-aided housing scheme being purchased in the cheapest market at home or abroad. English-made steel lathing is appreciably higher in prime cost than wood lathing but possesses some advantage, and the Minister would raise no objection if a local authority specified the use of this article.

    JUVENILE AND AGED WORKERS.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Lord Privy Seal when it is expected that the Committee appointed to inquire into the raising of the school age and the removal of the old from industry will reach its conclusions and be in a position to report to the Government?
    Mr. THOMAS: The Committee are pressing on with their inquiries with all possible expedition, but I am not in a position to say when their report will be available.
    Major GEORGE DAVIESasked the Lord Privy Seal in view of the decision of the Government not to raise the school leaving age to 15, what steps he proposes to take to prevent lads of 14 from becoming wage-earners and thus adding to the congestion of the labour markets?
    Mr. THOMAS: I am afraid the wish is father to the thought. No such decision has been taken.
    Major OWEN: Is it not possible for the Government Departments concerned to issue instructions to local authorities who have already raised the age to 15 not to put obstacles in the way of boys and girls leaving school at the age of 14?
    Mr. THOMAS: We would welcome and avail ourselves of any opportunity to encourage local authorities, but my hon. and gallant Friend will at once appreciate that there is much more involved than the mere question of raising the age. There is the question of maintenance, and the whole bearing of it will be considered by a committee. In order to help in that direction, I will certainly see what can be done.
    Major OWEN: Is it not possible, in areas such as that of the Carnarvonshire Education Committee, to enable children whose parents desire it to be released from school at the age of 14?
    Mr. THOMAS: That is a matter for the President of the Board of Education.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Has the Lord Privy Seal noticed the new policy of the Welsh Literal party?

    LAND RECLAMAIMON.
    Mr. RAYNESasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is prepared to consider schemes for the reclamation of flooded areas in cases where the condition of the land is hindering industrial development; is he aware that such an area, extending to over 1,000 acres, exists in and adjoining the borough of Derby; and will he give favourable consideration to a scheme for the reclamation of this area?
    Mr. THOMAS: I am well aware of the scheme to which my hon. Friend refers, and suggest that the local authority concerned should take the necessary steps to submit full particulars to me so that the matter may have immediate attention.

    RAILWAY ELECTRIFICATION (NEWCASTLE AND SOUTH SHIELDS).
    Mr. EDEasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is prepared to consider a scheme for the electrification of the railway from Newcastle-on-Tyne to South Shields

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    among the measures of railway development to be included in the work to be undertaken for the relief of unemployment?
    Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. The railway companies have been asked to suggest comprehensive schemes of development and improvement including an extension of electrification, and I will bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the railway company concerned.

    DOCK AND HARBOUR EXTENSIONS (LEITH).
    Mr. ERNEST BROWNasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he proposes to review schemes for dock and harbour extension, such as that proposed in 1922 at Leith, which were rejected on the ground that statutory dock undertakings were beneficial in their operations, and therefore eligible only for the lower scale of Exchequer grants?
    Mr. THOMAS: Schemes such as those to which the hon. Member refers could be reviewed under the proposals contained in the Development (Loan Guarantees and Grants) Bill, to be introduced into the House this week.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that schemes for extensions of other harbours as well as Leith have been completed, and will he tell us when the financial facilities will be forthcoming?
    Mr. THOMAS: I am well aware that the policy of the last Government prevented harbour development, and I am trying to remove that difficulty.

    GOVERNMENT WORKSHOPS AND DOCKYARDS (ALTERNATIVE WORK).
    Mr. EDMUNDSasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a committee to investigate the possibility of alternative work being carried on in the national workshops and yards, especially Pembroke dockyard?
    Mr. THOMAS: This matter is under consideration by the Government. As at present advised I do not think a Committee is necessary.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the Government propose to do?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: May I submit that this point does arise directly out of the question of alternative work being provided?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that point arises out of the question.

  CINEMATOGKAPH INDUSTRY.
  Mr. DAYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that American renters of talking films are insisting that British film exhibitors should enter into contracts for several talking films at one and the same time when the bookings are made; and, in view of these conditions, will he consider introducing amending legislation which will bring talking films under the provisions of the Cinematograph Films Act of 1927?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): Statements to the effect indicated have been brought to my notice, but the booking of several films at the same time is not contrary to the Cinematograph Films Act. As the hon. Member was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary on 12th July, I am advised that talking films already come within the scope of the Act.
  Mr. DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the system of talking films is what was commonly known in silent films as block bookings, and does he not realise that it is just a method of getting behind the Act?
  Mr. GRAHAM: All my information is that in the point raised by the hon. Gentleman there is nothing which is contrary to the Act, but in any case the Parliamentary Secretary is going to receive a deputation upon this and other subjects, and I think it would be better to discuss the details then.
  Mr. BECKETTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet considered the effect of talking films on the Act establishing cinema quota; and whether he can make any statement as to his proposals with regard to the continuation of, diminution of, or abandonment of the quota?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers which I gave last Tuesday to the hon. Members for Central Southwark (Mr. Day) and East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), copies of which I am sending him.
  Mr. BECKETT: Has the President of the Board of Trade had brought to his notice the contract which was made with regard to talking pictures when the instruments were supplied by American firms; and, if it is brought to his notice, will he take steps to ascertain whether those contracts infringe the law or not?
  Mr. GRAHAM: Yes, Sir. I have had some representations on that point. I will certainly take into account any further information which my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member can furnish.
  Mr. DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in making these contracts British exhibitors are prohibited from showing British talking films unless they pay 40 or 50 percent, of their takings?
  Mr. GRAHAM: As far as I understand the question, that is one of the points for discussion to-morrow. It is quite impossible across the Floor of the House to go into such a very complicated matter.
  Mr. DAYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that members of the Provincial Entertainment Proprietors' and Managers' Association of Manchester own and control 86 cinema theatres in the large provincial centres of Great Britain, in which several millions of British capital are invested; and whether, in view of this fact, this association was invited to send a representative on the deputation that the Parliamentary Secretary is receiving shortly to discuss the question of talking picture machine apparatus as it affects exhibitors of Great Britain?
  Mr. GRAHAM: The deputation is being received, at their request, from the Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association, which is the representative body of cinematograph exhibitors. Invitations have not been sent to other associations.
  Mr. DAY: If the Provincial Entertainment Proprietors' and Managers' Association desire to send a deputation,
  200
  will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation from them on the subject?
  Mr. GRAHAM: In this and in all other such matters I prefer to deal with the representative trade union, so to speak, but in any case I understand that the great majority of the members of this provincial association are members of the other association.
  Mr. BECKETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this organisation was badly slighted by the last Government?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    MERCHANDISE MARKS ACT (STANDING COMMITTEE).
    Mr. LOUIS SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government proposes to continue the functions of the Standing: Committee appointed under the Merchandise Marks Act?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: Yes, Sir.

    UNITED STATUS TARIFF.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of manufactured goods imported into Great Britain from the United States of America in 1928; what was the value of goods exported to America from this country in the same period; and whether, having regard to the financial obligations of Great Britain in respect of the payment of the War debt to America, it is proposed to make any representations to Washington concerning the proposed tariff increase on goods coming into the States?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFCIAL REPORT the figures for which he asks in the first and second parts of his question. In reply to the third part, I would refer to the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary-yesterday to the hon. Members for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) and Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury), a copy of which I am sending him.
    Sir F. HALL: May I cal the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that I have only asked for two figures? Cannot he give them to the House?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I am afraid that more than two figures are involved.
    Sir H. CROFT: Is it not the case that representations have been made to all foreign countries for some 20 years, with the result that they have all raised their tariffs against us?
    Following are the figures:
    The value of "Articles wholly or mainly manufactured" imported into this country in 1928 which were consigned from the United States of America was £65,328,000 including £19,381,000 in respect of refined petroleum. The exports of produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom, consigned to the united States in 1928 were valued at £46,624,000, including £35,185,000 in respect of "Articles wholly or mainly manufactured."

    IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRIES (INQUIRY).
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade if the terms of reference to the committee to be set up to inquire into the iron and steel industries will includes the wages paid and hours worked in foreign countries from which imports of iron and steal are imported into the United Kingdom?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As I have already stated in the House, the inquiry will be of the most comprehensive character.
    Commander BELLAIRSWill the right hon. Gentleman instruct the Committee to have regard to previous inquiries, especially the inquiry carried out by a Committee appointed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman), which reported in favour of Protection for these industries?
    Mr. REMER: In view of the answer which the right hon. Gentleman has given, may we take it that the inquiry will relate to the wages in the iron and steel industries?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I have already assured the House in this and another connection that these inquiries will be of the most comprehensive Character, and every factor bearing directly or indirectly on the issue will be taken into account.
    Mr. BOOTHBY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position
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    to announce the name of the committee and the terms of reference?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I hope almost immediately.
    Commander BELLAIRS: May I have an answer to my supplementary question?
    Mr. GRAHAM: As regards previous inquiries, it would be an obvious waste of time for any committee not to have regard to the material previously collected. That will be summarised and made available for the Committee which we propose to appoint.
    Sir H. CROFT rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is a large number of questions on the Paper, and we really must get on.

    INDUSTRIAL CAPITAL ISSUES.
    Mr. ALLENasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the widespread over-capitalisation which has been a feature of industrial promotion during recent years and of the adverse effects on employment, on wages, and on public confidence which have resulted therefrom, His Majesty's Government will set up a commission to inquire into the evil with the object of checking its continuance?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The hon. Member is no doubt aware that over-capitalisation is fully discussed in the volume "Further Factors in Industrial and Commercial Efficiency," issued by the Committee on Industry and Trade. The question will, of course, be within the scope of any inquiries which may be made into particular trades.

    FRENCH WOOLLEN AND WORSTED MANU FACTURES (IMPORTS).
    Mr. REMERasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the importation in the first five months of this year of 4,693,945 square yards of woollen and worsted manufactures from France; and, in view of the official figures that wages in France are 56 per cent. of the rates paid in this country, what action he intends to take to prohibit imports under such conditions?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The figure quoted by the hon. Member relates to the imports

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    from France of woollen tissues. In addition, 4,633,453 square yards of worsted tissues were imported from France during the same period. The figures in each case were substantially lower than those for the corresponding periods of the two preceding years. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer to my statement in the Debate on the Address on 8th July (OFFICIAL REPORT, column 576).
    Mr. REMER: Are we to take it from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that he is not going to adopt any means to carry out the Prime Minister's pledge?

    RETAIL SELLING PRICES.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government purpose taking any action against firms or combinations of firms which refuse to supply traders with goods unless under terms which prohibit selling at a lower price or in giving a discount to the purchaser?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: It will be my duty in the course of the coming weeks to examine many important questions in which the Board of Trade are concerned, including this one to which my hon. Friend refers, and I would ask him to await the result of that investigation.

    ABRASIVE WHEELS (IMPORT).
    Mr. HOFFMANasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can

    —

    Quantity.

    Declared Value.

    July to December, 1925—

    Dozens.

    £

    Safety Razors, including blades and blanks:

    Total Imports

    5,424,427

    714,145

    Exports

    195,104

    56,314

    Re-exports

    147,040

    23,763

    January to June, 1929—

    Safety Razors:

    Complete:

    Total Imports

    25,421

    4,272

    Exports

    75,098

    56,611

    Re-exports

    1,961

    1,468

    Component parts thereof (including handles, blades and blanks:

    Total Imports

    Recorded by value only.

    292,864

    Exports

    101,930

    Re-exports

    57,521

    The imports of safety razors and parts thereof during the period July to December, 1925, were exceptionally large in anticipation of the duty which was imposed at the end of that year.

    give the quantity of abrasive wheels imported into this country for the years 1926, 1927, and 1928?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The total number of grinding wheels (other than grindstones) imported into the United Kingdom during 1926, 1927 and 1928 amounted to 465,000, 602,400, and 642,300, respectively.

    SAFETY RAZORS.
    Mr. LOUIS SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give in dozens the export, import, and re-export figures for safety razors and safety razor blades, respectively, for the six months ending 31st December, 1925 and for the six months ending 30th June, 1929; and the comparative prices in each period of the two types of articles?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The answer has been prepared in tabular form; and, with the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    I regret that comparable figures for the two periods are not available in the detail asked for.
    The following statement shows the quantities and declared values of the United Kingdom imports, exports and re-exports of safety razors and component parts thereof registered during the periods July to December, 1925, and January to June, 1929.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    Loss OF STEAMSHIP "VESTRIS" (INQUIRY.)
    Mr. THOMAS LEWISasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the amount of legal fees paid or payable by the Government in respect of the Board of Trade inquiry into the sinking of the steamer "Vestris," and if he will say to whom they are paid or payable?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Court of Formal Investigation have power to deal with the question of costs and they have not yet delivered their judgment. Until this has been done it is impossible to say what amount of costs will fall to be paid by the Government. It is anticipated that the judgment will be delivered towards the end of the present month, and if my hon. Friend will repeat his question after this has been done, I shall be glad to give him the information.
    Mr. LEWIS: Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to the Cabinet the desirability of paying all-inclusive salaries to the Law Officers of the Crown, as is done in the case of many public bodies?

    LOAD-LINE.
    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Load-line Committee, appointed in 1927, has yet concluded its Report; and is it the intention to send the Report to other countries for consideration and agreement?
    Mr. MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade if any definite decision has yet been arrived at regarding the fixing of a proper safety load-line; and, if not, if he will introduce, either by regulation or legislation, a load-line which will approximate to the old Plimsoll safety line?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: Statutory rules for fixing the position of load-line on ships have been in force since 1890, and are still in force. These rules have been modified from time to time in the light of increased experience and improved construction of ships, and a further revision of the rules has been undertaken
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    by an expert committee, who are expected to report very soon. It is proposed to send their report to Dominion and foreign Governments for consideration, and efforts will be made to secure international agreement on the subject of load-line.
    Mr. KELLY: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to when this Committee is likely to report?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot go beyond the reply which I have already given, but we should have the Report very soon now, and it may help matters if I add that it will, of course, be Published, and will be available to hon. Members.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will there be anything in the Report in reference to the subject of the last part of my question, No.39?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot at this stage anticipate the terms of the Report, but I can say at once to the House that there will be no question of any reduction of the present safety regulations.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to speed up the inquiry, as it has been going on for a long time?
    Mr. GRAHAM: Yes, Sir.

  COMPANIES ACT.
  Mr. SMITHERSasked the President of the Board of Trade how many actions in the Courts have been initiated under Section 92 of the Company Law Amendment Act, 1928; and what has been the result of such actions?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: There have, up to the present, been no cases for prosecution, but some are still under consideration.
  Mr. SMITHERS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these "share pushers" are becoming active again, and will he, if I bring a case to his notice, consult with the Home Secretary and see what action can be taken?
  Mr. GRAHAM: Certainly.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    ENEMY DEBTS DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade what action was taken in the Enemy Debts Department as a result of the investigation by a committee of the Treasury into the methods and working of that Department?
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: As my predecessor informed my hon. Friend on the 19th February last, the report of the investigation into the accounting procedure of the Enemy Debts Department shows that the system adopted is satisfactorily performing its functions, but that the completion of the work on existing lines must necessarily take a considerable time. Suggestions designed to expedite the completion of the work have now been fully examined, and some minor modifications of office arrangements have been made.
    Mr. KELLY: Will that Report be available to Members of this House, in view of the many things that have been said about this Department?
    Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) to state the specific charges which he has to make on this matter?
    Mr. KELLY: Is it not within the province of a Member of this House to raise questions regarding the administration of the various Departments in this House rather than in the law courts of the country?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot promise that what is really a departmental report will be circulated.

    TAX OFFICE, WORCESITER.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with regard to the proposal to remove the office of the collector of Customs and Excise from Worcester to Newport, Monmouthshire, he will say on what grounds such a proposal is contemplated; whether he has received any protest against such a step from the corporation of Worcester; and what reply has been made?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): The
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    proposal to discontinue the office of the collector of Customs and Excise at Worcester forms part of a general rearrangement of Customs and Excise collections throughout the country which is being undertaken on the grounds of economical administration. I am in-formed that the Commissioners of Customs and Excise have received a protest against this proposal from the corporation of Worcester, to whom a reply has been sent to the effect that a Customs and Excise staff will remain at Worcester for the performance of all Customs and Excise work outside the collector's office, and that it is not anticipated that any inconvenience to traders or the general public will result from the proposed change.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: It is very difficult to hear the right hon. Gentleman. Do I understand that the protests that have been made have led him to make some arrangement with regard to the transferred office?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I am sorry if I did not make myself heard. The latter part of my answer was that a reply has been sent to the corporation of Worcester to the effect that a Customs and Excise staff will remain there, and it is not anticipated that any inconvenience will arise from the proposed change.

    MINISTEY OF TRANSPORT (PARLIMENTAEY SECRETARY).
    Captain BOURNEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport is at present in receipt of the official salary of £1,200 per annum attached to that office?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): Yes, Sir.
    Captain BOURNE: Can the hon. Gentleman say under what authority this payment is being made?
    Mr. PETHICK - LAWRENCE: On further examination, it appears that there is already statutory authority under Section 25 (2) of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, for the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary at a salary not exceeding £1,500, and, as far as can be foreseen, this can be made available on the Ministry of Transport Vote.
    Captain BOURNE: Is it not the case that money will have to be provided by Parliament under that Act, and may I ask the hon. Gentleman when Parliament has in fact provided these moneys?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The position is exactly the same as it was in the year 1924. There had been no Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport under the Labour Government of that year. When the Conservative Government came into office in November of 1924, a Parliamentary Secretary, as well as a Minister, was appointed, but no Supplementary Estimate was presented to Parliament.

    BOARD OF INLAND EEVENUE AND CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
    Sir HILTON YOUNGasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what was the increase in the staffs of the Inland Revenue Department and the Board of Customs and Excise respectively in the five years to 1st April last?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: During the period referred to the total staff of the Board of Inland Revenue has increased by 1,573, and the total staff of the Board of Customs and Excise by 792.

  FOOD COUNCIL (POWERS).
  Mr. WALTER BAKERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is in a position to announce the Government's decision regarding an extension of the powers of the Food Council?
  Mr. HOFFMANasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is prepared to extend the powers of the Food Prices Committee?
  Mr. MANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government is prepared to introduce legislation giving compulsory powers to the Food Council?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which I gave to the bon. Member for North Islington (Mr. Reginald Young) on 11th July, a copy of which I am sending them.

  COAST EROSION.
  Sir GERVAIS RENTOULasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is prepared to introduce legislation in order to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Coast Erosion, especially for the purpose of prohibiting the removal of materials from the foreshore and the co-ordination and control of the construction of works by local authorities in the interests of sea defence?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: I hope to introduce a Bill on this subject before the Summer Recess.
  Commander WILLIAMS: Will the right hon. Gentleman give full consideration to the position of farmers in certain districts, where a very important source of the manure they use is material from the foreshore?
  Mr. GRAHAM: I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member must await the text of the Bill.

  INSURANCE BUSINESS.
  Mr. ALBERYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that certain insurance companies and underwriters frequently endeavour to evade the payment of risks, for which they have received adequate premiums, on purely technical grounds, he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation at an early date with a view to safeguarding the public interest in this matter?
  Mr. W. GRAHAM: If the hon. Member will give me more specific information as to the nature of the legislation which he thinks desirable, I shall be happy to consider it.
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a recent case in the Courts in connection with diplomatic immunity, and will he look at that case with a view to carrying out the suggestions embodied in this question?
  Mr. GRAHAM: Certainly, I will look at any case which in any way bears on this question.

  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  Mr. FOOTasked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the importance of the fishing industry, it is the intention of the Government to set up a separate Department charged with responsibility in respect of this industry?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. J. Ramsay MacDonald): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday in answer to a similar question by the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Sir G. Rentoul).

  REPARATIONS CONFERENCE.
  Mr. BOOTHBYasked the Prime Minister where the forthcoming International Conference on Reparations will be held?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Dalton): I have been asked to reply. I have at present nothing to add to the reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury).
  Mr. BOOTHBY: Will the Government be in a position to make a statement on the question before the House rises for the Recess?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Will the Prime Minister take into consideration in this matter the fact that, if the Conference is held in London and we are in the position of being hosts in the matter, we shall more likely be pressed to make concessions than if it is held on mutual territory?
  Mr. DALTON: I wish the right hon. Gentleman could convince the other Powers that that was the case.

  ROAD TRAFFIC BILL.
  Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed to introduce the Road Traffic Bill in the present Session?
  Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: I have been asked to reply. I have received an assurance from the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Transport that a first Report may be expected from the
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  Royal Commission before the summer Recess, dealing with the regulation and control of road vehicles generally from the point of view of public safety. So soon as the Report is received, consideration will be given to the Royal Commission's recommendations with a view to the introduction of a Bill. The progress of the Bill will have to depend upon the state of the Parliamentary timetable, and at this stage of the Session the Government is unable to give any pledge in this respect.
  Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a Bill on this subject is very much overdue and that we have been pressing for it for a long time on the other side of the House? Will be take every step to expedite the progress of the Bill, which will be quite uncontentious?
  Mr. MORRISON: I am aware that many things are overdue owing to delays under the late Government. We shall be quite pleased to do all that we can to accelerate the matter.
  Sir F. HALL: Are we going to see al the promises of the Government fulfilled?

  WALES AND SCOTLAND (POLITICAL AUTONOMY).
  Major OWENasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce measures to grant autonomy to Wales and Scotland?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the observations which I made on this subject during the Debate on the Address on Wednesday last.
  Major OWEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to put Wales on a basis of equality with Scotland?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am sorry I cannot add to what I said on that occasion.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will never put Wales on an equality with Scotland?

  PERPETUAL PENSIONS.
  Mr. FOOTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what perpetual pensions are now being paid in respect of services rendered to the nation more than a century ago?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The only perpetual pension remaining is that of £5,000 per annum granted by Parliament in 1806 to Earl Nelson.
  Mr. FOOT: Do the Government desire the commutation of this pension, as others have been commuted recently?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: It is open to the recipient of a pension to make application for commutation. I am sure it will be favourably received.
  Mr. FOOT: Apart from the recipient making application, are the Government prepared to take the initiative in the matter?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not think the Government could compel commutation, apart from legislation.

  MINERAL ROYALTIES.
  Commander BELLAIRSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated cost to the country of purchasing the royalties on minerals?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I am not in a position to give an estimate at the present time. The Royal Commission on the Coal Industry (1925) estimated on certain assumptions that the purchase price for mineral rights in coal would be about £90,000,000 to £100,000,000, and that, having regard to the rents and royalties receivable, the transaction would probably leave the annual Budget of the State but little affected. Fuller details of the estimate made by the Royal Commission may be found on page 81 of their Report (Command Paper 2600 of 1926) and in appendix No. 39 to that Report.

  CREDIT AND CURRENCY POLICY.
  Mr. BOOTHBYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he proposes to set up any special inquiry into the question of credit and currency policy?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley).
  Mr. BOOTHBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that if this question is to be considered in any of these aspects it will be considered not merely as a national but also as an Imperial and international question, and that before any decision is taken the Dominions will be fully consulted with regard to the policy to be pursued?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I am afraid I could not at present give any undertaking on the request the hon. Member has made.

  CENTRAL BANKS (CONFERENCE).
  Mr. BOOTHBYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the view of His Majesty's Government that the time is now ripe for the Conference of Central Banks contemplated by the Genoa Conference of 1922; and, if so, whether he is taking any steps to expedite the summoning of such a conference?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would prefer, before considering this matter, to await the decisions which must shortly be taken regarding the proposal in the Report of the Committee of Experts as to the establishment of a Bank for International Settlements.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: May we take it that the policy of the Government is the same as the policy of the last Government, that it is desirable to achieve international co-operation?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: It is impossible at the moment to know what may be the outcome of the proposal of the institution of this bank. The situation may be materially changed and, after the Report has been accepted, then we can consider the matter.

  RHINELAND EVACUATION.
  Sir F. HALLasked the Secretary of State for War whether any instructions have been sent to the British Army headquarters in the Rhine occupation zone as to the proposed arrangements for the evacuation of the occupied territories?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Shinwell): Definite instructions cannot be issued until a decision has been reached regarding the evacuation of the Rhineland, but the arrangements which will then be necessary have naturally been considered by the War Office in conjunction with the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, British Army of the Rhine.
  Sir F. HALL: What are the arrangements which are naturally being considered?
  Mr. SHINWELL: Some conversations have taken place as regards details, but nothing definite has been arranged.
  Sir F. HALL: May I put it another way?
  Mr. SPEAKER: One way is quite enough.
  Sir F. HALL: The evasive reply which has been given is no answer whatever.

  FOREIGN LOANS.
  Mr. MACLEANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any steps are being considered, or have been decided upon, to prohibit any foreign loans being raised in Britain where the purpose of such loan is to enable the foreign country interested using such loan in competitive export industry with the export industries of Britain?
  Mr. P. SNOWDEN: This is a matter of very great complexity, and it is impossible within the limits of an answer at Question Time even to indicate the many problems which would have to be solved before my hon. Friend's suggestion could be put into force.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer hold out any hope to this House that he will go into the matter and have an investigation into this particular question?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I may say that this matter of necessity is constantly engaging the attention of the Treasury.
  Commander WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that at no time is pressure likely to be exercised in the City on this very important matter?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I cannot give any assurance at all either one way or the other.
  Mr. MACLEAN—
  Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot have so many supplementaries to every question on the Paper.

  BEET-SUGAR INDUSTRY.
  Sir A. SINCLAIRasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he proposes to institute an inquiry into the general finance of beet-sugar cultivation, the labour conditions in beet-sugar factories, and the plight of the refineries; and whether he proposes to continue the payment of the beet-sugar subsidy?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addison): I have been asked to reply. In view of the fact that a comprehensive report on the beet-sugar industry is being prepared for issue in the Ministry's economic series of publications, my right hon. Friend sees no necessity for an inquiry such as that referred to. The position of the refiners was dealt with in the 1928 Budget. In regard to the last part of the question, the subsidy is paid pursuant to an Act of Parliament, and he has no power to withhold that payment.
  Sir A. SINCLAIR: Is it quite clear that this Report to which the right hon. Gentleman refers will cover all the points raised in this question of mine, including the labour conditions in the factories?
  Dr. ADDISON: I was informed that the Report covers them to some extent, but until I have seen the Report I cannot express any further opinion upon it.
  Sir H. CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that employment has increased by 8,000 under the late Government's policy?

  OFFICIAL REPORT (PRICE).
  Mr. WELLOCKasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether in view of the growing importance of politics and the increased interest now being displayed by large sections of the public in political affairs, he will consider reducing the price of the OFFICIAL REPORT to 3d. per copy?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I am afraid that past experience shows that a further reduction in price would increase the loss already falling on public funds in connection with the publication of the OFFICIAL REEPORT. I regret, therefore, that I cannot at present see my way to accept. my hon. Friend's suggestion.
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Would it not be cheaper if we had the proceedings of Parliament broadcast?

  NATIONAL ECONOMY (EXPORT OF WEALTH).
  Mr. ALLENasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether His Majesty's Government will consider setting up a commission to inquire into the effect on the national economy of the export of wealth involved in the purchase of articles of luxury of foreign manufacture and in the growing annual expenditure of the well-to-do classes of this country on the Continent of Europe?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: No, Sir. From the taxation aspect which seems to be the aspect of practical importance, these matters have been repeatedly considered from 1918 onwards, and I do not think a theoretical inquiry would serve any useful purpose.
  Mr. ALLEN: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the millions spent abroad every year are part of the invisible exports which are supposed to be so beneficial to the British trader?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I do not think that that arises out of this question.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    TORCHLIGHT TATTOO, EDINBURGH.
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the suggestion to hold a torchlight tattoo in the Edinburgh district during the coming autumn; whether this display has received his sanction; and whether he will have the proposed arrangements reconsidered?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I have been informed that if has been arranged to hold a tattoo at Dreghorn Castle, Colinton, near Edinburgh, from 4th to 7th September.
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    Permission to organise such tattoos is, subject to certain general conditions, left to the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Command concerned.
    Mr. AYLES: Has the time not come, in the interest of spreading the principles of the League of Nations, when permission for the holding of tattoos should cease?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a different matter.
    Mr. MATHERS: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that his Department has no control over a matter of this kind?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Certainly, there is control, but I am advised that these tattoos are harmless and involve no expenditure, and that under the circumstances it is not desirable to interfere.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Is it not a fact that this particular tattoo in Scotland has been successful in the past and has collected a large amount of money for charity?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Yes.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is it not a fact that this tattoo, in common with all tattoos, is intended for recruiting purposes and for glorifying war?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I understand that the primary purpose of the tattoo is to raise funds for charities.

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (DEFENDANTS' ALLOWANCES).
    Mr. FREEMANasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider amending the order by which Territorials during training are debarred from receiving the same allowance for dependant relatives as is at present granted to wives?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Territorials in camp are treated in this matter on the same general lines as apply to the Regular Army, and I regret that I am unable to extend the regulation in the way which my hon. Friend suggests.

    PENSION CLAIMS.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will set up appeal tribunals, on the same lines as those under the Minister of Pensions, to consider the

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    claims of men who are discharged on account of disability or who claim that they are entitled to a disability pension?
    Mr. SHINWELL: This question has already received careful consideration on various occasions. The constitution of the Board of Chelsea Commissioners ensures that the soldiers' interests are fully watched and I am not satisfied that a case has been made out for the setting up of a tribunal such as the hon. and gallant Member suggests.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Does the hon. Gentleman not think that it would be much more satisfactory if these men had the right of an appeal to an independent tribunal, and will he state the reason for denying that to them?
    Mr. SHINWELL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must be aware that the Chelsea Commissioners are themselves an independent board.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the greatest sense of injustice prevails owing to the fact that the claimant cannot himself be heard or be represented as he can at the Ministry of Pensions Appeal Tribunals, and is he prepared to abide by the decision of his predecessors on this and on other matters?
    Mr. SHINWELL: This is entirely different from the ordinary administration of pensions appeals, but if the hon. Member has any specific case I shall be glad to consider it.

    BANDS (CIVIL ENGAGEIVIENTS).
    Mr. AYLESasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the growing unemployment amongst musicians, he will prohibit for the time being military bands accepting civil engagements?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Military bands are permitted to accept civil engagements because there is a public demand for their services, and are not permitted to do so on terms which are lower than those which would be offered in the same circumstances to a civilian band. I see no reason for altering the present policy in this matter.
    Mr. DAY: Can the hon. Member say whether the bandsmen themselves derive this benefit, or whether it goes to some mess fund?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I should imagine that the discoursing of sweet music was a benefit to all concerned.
    Mr. TOOLE: Is the hon. Member aware that this loaning out of military bands causes great hardship to unemployed musicians in this country, and that there is great feeling in the musical profession against it?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I understand that there is some feeling, but I am advised that there is no serious hardship.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Is not unemployment among musicians due to the Minister of Labour?

    ORDNANCE FACTORIES EMPLOYÉS (PENSIONS).
    Mr. SNELLasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that for many years the workmen in the ordnance factories at Woolwich, Enfield, and Waltham Abbey have endeavoured to secure the establishment of a contributory pension scheme for retiring aged workers; whether he has, examined the various schemes submitted to his Department; and will he state what his intention are in regard to them?
    Mr. W. W. HENDERSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to say anything regarding the application of the workers at the Enfield and other Royal ordnance factories for the establishment of a contributory pensions scheme for retiring aged workers; whether detailed proposed schemes have been submitted to him; and whether he proposes to consult with the Treasury as to the possibility of establishing a contributory pensions scheme for Government ordnance factory workers?
    Mr. SHINWELL: The matter is under consideration, but I regret that I am not yet in a position to announce any decision.
    Mr. KELLY: May I ask whether at the same time that this contributory scheme is being considered the question of a non-contributory scheme will also be considered?

    TOTALISATOR EXPERIMENT, CARLISLE.
    Sir BASIL PETOasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the employment of 200 soldiers from the Border Regiment for an experimental trial of the totalisator at Carlisle racecourse on the 1st July; and whether his approval was given to this use of troops for the promotion of betting by machine on racecourses?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am informed that 127 men volunteered to take part in an experimental trial of the totalisator at Carlisle on 1st July in their spare time. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Did they get any remuneration for this pleasant duty?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am advised that there was no actual remuneration.

    PENSIONS INCREASE ACTS.
    Mr. SHILLAKERasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in assessing the income of a pensioner under the Pension Increase Acts, 1920 and 1924, he will take steps to exclude from the assessment such allowances as may be given in addition to pension in respect of decorations awarded for gallantry in the field of battle?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Increases under the Pensions Increase Acts and the Royal Warrants authorising similar increases in military pensions, are based on the recipient's means, and I see no grounds on which this particular source of income could be omitted from the calculation. Nor could special treatment, if granted, be confined to the recipients of military pensions. In these circumstances I regret that I am not in a position to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. SHILLAKER: Is the hon. Member aware that these emoluments are given as an increase of pension, and that, consequently, they should not be included as part of the income for Pensions Increase Act purposes?
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am aware of the fact mentioned by the hon. Member, but there are considerable difficulties in making new arrangements in this matter.

  SCOTLAND.

    SASINE OFFICE, EDINBURGH (PROMOTION).
    Mr. MATHERSasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his Department has reached any decision in respect of the services of a certain officer in the Sasine Office at Edinburgh after his attainment of the age of 65; and whether he is aware that there is a serious block in promotion of first class clerkships in the Sasine Office and any such extension to an officer holding a higher appointment is a matter of grave concern to the staff?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): After careful consideration I decided that in view of the special circumstances arising from the recent reorganization of the Department I must ask the Treasury to sanction a short extension of service for an officer who is actively engaged on reorganization work and who could ill be spared at present. The Treasury have now given their sanction. As the proposal only involves a few months' extension to the officer in question, its effect on promotion prospects is negligible. I fully realise the undesirability on general grounds of extension of service, and the hon. Member may rest assured that I should not propose it except on clear grounds of public interest.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is this man of 65 thoroughly efficient? If so, why should he be scrapped?

    JUVENILE OFFENDERS (TREATMENT).
    Mr. LOVAT-FRASERasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he proposes to take any steps to establish a system of probation as recommended by the Scottish Prison Commissioners in their last annual Report?
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: This question is under consideration together with other recommendations by the Scottish Departmental Committee on the Treatment of Young Offenders which cannot be carried into effect without legislation.

    HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (MEDICAL SERVICES) FUND.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the present condition of the Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Fund; whether

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    the beneficial services assisted by the Fund are being in any way curtailed; and whether steps are being taken to maintain the Fund on a sound financial basis?
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: The War-time accumulations in the Fund will be exhausted within the next few months and the present statutory income of the Fund will require to be supplemented in order that the current year's liabilities may be met. While there has been no curtailment of established services assisted from the Fund and certain expansions have been sanctioned from year to year, other desirable developments have been delayed pending reconstitution of the Fund. I have the whole position under consideration and hope to be able to submit proposals to the House on an early date.

    FISHING INDUSTRY.
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the damage inflicted on the Scottish fishing industry by the seine or other small-meshed trawl nets and the methods of using such nets, he will take steps to have the trawlers and other fishing boats compelled to use nets with a mesh suitable for catching fish of reasonable marketable size, while permitting all other small fish to escape, with a view to their subsequently reaching maturity?
    Mr. W. ADAMSON: I am alive to the desirability of preventing as far as possible the destruction of immature fish, and in those Scottish inshore areas in which seine net fishing is permitted a minimum size of mesh of net is imposed. Similar regulations for extra-territorial waters would require to be enforced by international agreement. The whole question is receiving the attention of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, and the British delegates to the Council have special instructions on the subject.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the opinion of competent authorities that the present size of net is illegal, and will he see that the Fishery Board takes civil proceedings against those who use them?
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir LAMBERT WARD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the immense amount of damage that is being done by local fishermen trawling in their own boats?

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
Mr. MACPHERSON: Yon will notice, Mr. Speaker, that the questions relating to Scotland have been altered in position on the Order Paper for Tuesday. Four or five years ago, all Members of the House agreed that on one day in the week, in any case, questions relating to Scotland should have an early place and a certain place upon the Order Paper. This arrangement has been altered without any consultation, I understand, with the party to which I have the honour to belong. Therefore, I raise it as a matter of public interest, and I would like you to use your good offices with the Government to reinstate Scottish questions in the position to which they are entitled, and which they have occupied for the last four years. It is quit? obvious that Tuesday's Order Paper will always be full. The questions to the Lord Privy Seal come first, and then there are questions to the Board of Trade, which always evoke a very long series of interrogatories, and there are also the questions to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Secretary of State for War. To-day, by the merest chance, we got a few Scottish questions asked and answered, but generally there is no guarantee that they will be reached. I ask on behalf of my Scottish colleagues in all parts of the House that our questions should be reinstated in the position which they formerly held.
Mr. MACQUISTEN: I should like to endorse what my right hon. Friend has said.
Mr. MACLEAN: May I draw attention to the fact that of the nineteen questions addressed to the Lord Privy Seal 11 have been answered by the Minister of Transport, who has a separate day, and an early position on the Order Paper, in order to reply to questions addressed to him. Only three or four questions have been answered relating to Scotland, and we have not had an opportunity of taking up any questions referring to the Ministry of Labour.
The PRIME MINISTER: I am very sorry that no approach has been made in regard to this matter. Until it was mentioned by my right hon. Friend, I had no warning that it was his intention to raise it.
Mr. MACPHERSON: I hope that I made it perfectly plain that our grievance was that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury had not attempted to approach us, or probably, my right hon. Friend above they Gangway, on this matter. It is the duty of the Parliamentary Secretary to approach us if he intends to have the position of questions altered.
The PRIME MINISTER: I am making no complaint. I was only making that statement in my own self-defence, because, having heard nothing about it, I am very sorry that I cannot give a reply. It is within the knowledge of the House that various complaints have been made in the last two or three days that certain important Ministries had bad places on the Order Paper. We have over 20 Departments, and we have only four Parliamentary days a week. It is a very difficult problem, something like fitting up a jig-saw puzzle, to give everyone a prominent place on the Paper. We will do our best to give every Department of importance a chance; but in reference to the observation made by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) I must warn hon. Members that they should be a little more careful as to the Minister to whom they put their question. In my own case, I am constantly getting questions which do not belong to mo at all. Quite obviously, they are departmental questions, and, if hon. Members address their questions to the wrong Minister, then the fault must lie with hon. Members themselves. However, we will see if anything can be done in the matter.
Sir A. SINCLAIR: Although it is quite clear that we cannot press the Prime Minister to give us an answer as to the particular day and the particular place he will assign to Scottish questions, I think he should give us an assurance that questions affecting the whole administration of his country and ours shall receive some prominent place on the Order Paper.
Mr. SANDERS: May I ask, as a new Member of the House, whether the Prime Minister can tell us if there is any special time devoted to purely English questions?
Sir BOLTON EYRES MONSELL: May I ask the Prime Minister if the arrangement
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in the last Parliament was not perfectly satisfactory to everybody, and whether it would not be advisable, once more, to follow the policy of the late Government?
The PRIME MINISTER: I would remind the right hon. and gallant Member that there have been changes in respect of Departments as well as in respect of Governments. The most important Department at the moment is the Department presided over by the Lord Privy Seal, and that has upset the arrangement which held in the last Parliament. I suggest that the three parties co-operate through the usual channels and bring forward a scheme for the time being. So far as I am concerned, I shall be perfectly willing to accept a scheme winch is satisfactory to all sections of the House.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: There is a good deal to be said for the suggestion of the Prime Minister that there should be consultation between those who advise the different parties in regard to the arrangement of business, and the sooner it takes place the better, because there is a good deal of dissatisfaction. May I ask a question in regard to the position of the Lord Privy Seal? The right hon. Gentleman has charge of what is practically a new Department dealing with unemployment. Everyone assumes that any question concerning the expenditure of public money on roads, canals, or any other subject which bears upon unemployment is to be addressed to the Lord Privy Seal. To-day, most of these questions were answered by the Minister of Transport. I am making no complaint, but I think the House should be informed. if it is understood that questions bearing upon canals and roads and transport and communications are to be addressed to the Minister of Transport, we shall know to whom to put our- questions, but at the moment it is understood that all these questions should be addressed to the Lord Privy Seal.

TYNESIDE TRAMWAYS AND TRAM- ROADS COMPANY BILL [Lords].
Report [15th July] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Bill to be read the Second time.— [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

SELECTION (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had Selected the following Ten Members to be the Chairmen's Panel, and to serve as Chairmen of the Five Standing Committees appointed under Standing Order No. 47: Mr. James Brown, Mr. James Gardner, Mr. Frederick Hall, Mr. Leif Jones, Major Sir Clive Morrison-Bell, Mr. William Nicholson, Sir Hugh O'Neill, Sir Samuel Roberts, Mr. Scurr, and Mr. Cecil Wilson.
Report to lie on the Table.

SELECTION (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL) (PARLIAMENT ACT, 1911).
Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Committee of Selection; That, in pursuance of Section 1, sub-section (3), of the Parliament Act, 1911, they had appointed Mr. William Nicholson and Mr. Scurr from the Chairmen's Panel, with whom Mr. Speaker shall consult, if practicable, before giving his certificate to a Money Bill.
Report to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  DEVELOPMENT (LOAN GUARANTEES AND GRANTS) [MONEY].
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 71A.
  [Mr. REBERT YOUNG in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it is expedient—
  (1) to authorise the Treasury, after consultation with a committee appointed by them, to guarantee at any time with-in the period of three years from the thirty-first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, the payment of the principal of and the interest on any loans to be raised for the purpose of meeting capital expenditure to be incurred under schemes for development, reconstruction, or re-equipment in connection with public utility undertakings in Great Britain carried on under statutory powers by bodies of persons other than local authorities or such statutory bodies as are mentioned in paragraph (3) of this Resolution (including loans the proceeds of which may be applied in part towards the payment of interest on the loans during a limited period), and to charge on the Consolidated Fund any moneys required to fulfil any guarantees given under this provision;
  Provided that the aggregate capital amount of the loans so guaranteed shall not exceed such amount as is sufficient to raise the sum of twenty-five million pounds;
  (2) to authorise the Treasury, with the concurrence of the appropriate Government Department and after consultation with the committee aforesaid, to make at any time within the period aforesaid grants for the purpose of assisting persons carrying on any such public utility undertakings as are mentioned in paragraph (1) of this Resolution in defraying, during a period not exceeding fifteen years from the raising of the loan, the interest payable on any loan (not being a loan in respect of which a guarantee has been given under the said paragraph (1) to be raised for such purpose as is mentioned in the said paragraph (1);
  (3) to authorise the Minister of Labour, with the approval of the Treasury and on the recommendation of a committee appointed by him with the approval of the Treasury, to make at any time within the period aforesaid to any local authorities and any such statutory bodies as carry on undertakings under statutory powers otherwise than for profit grants towards any expenditure to be incurred for the purpose of carrying out works of public utility calculated to promote employment in the United Kingdom;
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  Provided that in the case of a grant made by way of assistance in defraying charges for interest and sinking fund in connection with a loan, payments on account of the grant shall not be made in respect of charges for any year after the expiration of thirty years from the raising of the loan;
  (4) to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

  (a) such sums as may be required for the purpose of grants under paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Resolution; and

  (b) any expenses, so far as not otherwise provided for, which may be incurred by the Treasury or the Minister of Labour in connection with the committees aforesaid;

  (5) to make provisions ancillary to certain of the matters aforesaid."— (King's Recommendation signified.)
  The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. J. H. Thomas): In the course of the Debate on the King's Speech, I gave the House my general views on our unemployment policy. There was considerable criticism of the meagreness of the proposals and the modesty of the finance involved. I could, of course, have come to the House with more far-reaching proposals, but at the end of the Debate I should have had questions addressed to me in this form: "When is it anticipated these proposals are likely to materialise?" I felt that my first duty, therefore, was to indicate a method of dealing with this problem in stages and that I should first consider and concentrate on proposals which could be immediately taken in band. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, finding himself in opposition for the first time and not knowing what it was to sit on the back benches and wait his turn, for the first time being free and in opposition, said to himself: "This must be my day out," and immediately launched out and said, "I have listened to all these proposals: what are they?" During the General Election he had predicted that one day the country would wake up and find a Labour Government in office, and that it would be the end of all things, and he was disappointed to find that the first proposals of the Government did not fulfil his predictions. Then in the most airy way he said: "I have listened to all these schemes; to the £6,500,000 for the railways. I sanctioned that. I told the House the principle." There were, of course, some "Hear, hears!" from hon. Members behind him. They assumed that it was true. Hon. Members opposite should have delayed some of

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  their cheers. Of course the late Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House about the £6,500,000, but he knows perfectly well that from the time he told the House until I announced a decision no principle had been settled, and this might have gone on until now. Then he said: "I have heard of the £9,500,000. My scheme; the late Government's proposal." And again there were cheers from hon. Members behind him.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: What was the £9,500,000?
  4.0 p.m.
  Mr. THOMAS: For the roads. I can excuse back benchers saying, "Hear, hear" because they thought it was true, but I cannot excuse the right hon. Gentleman when he knew that he himself turned down the £9,500,000. I repeat, I say it deliberately, that in respect of the £9,500,000 which I sanctioned under the second scheme, while it is true that the proposals were worked out, it is equally true that the late Government turned them down, and turned them down unanimously. Therefore, when I introduce these proposals, and the right hon. Gentleman immediately gets up and says, "Ah, but this is my baby," I am entitled to remind him that it was stillborn as far as he is concerned. Then he examined all the proposals in that way. He said: "Look at this Colonial Development Fund— £1,000,000. My scheme again! Our Election pledge!", and I could almost hear the ex-Colonial Secretary saying, "Forgive him, because it was he who punctured me all through." His million scheme! As a matter of fact, for 4½ years that scheme had been urged upon him, and he would not touch it until the General Election arrived. Therefore, I am entitled to say that if we are to be criticised on the ground that we are merely adopting the late Government's scheme, I am entitled to tell the facts. [Interruption.] If at any time the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) is going to speak, I will answer him, but I am quite sure that the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer needs no advice from him.
  Therefore, I only observe that in making the proposals that I did, I took the schemes that were in existence, because it seemed that it would save
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  delay, and I repeat to the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer that as far as the first proposals were concerned, he was mainly responsible for seeing that they were not given effect to. Incidentally, I welcome that kind of criticism, because if my proposals were so modest and so meagre that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the other side could cheer them and say, "We want something better, something more elaborate, something more costly," I have only got to remind them that it was only 4½ weeks ago, and that in 4½ years I will give them something more elaborate and more costly. I hope, therefore, right hon. and hon. Members opposite will give me the same blessing to the proposals then.
  What was the situation? What is it to-day? Proposals might have been submitted of a kind that in five, 10 or 15 years would mature. What I had to ask myself was: Would the House of Commons and the country expect, after the recent General Election, any Minister or any Government to ignore the coming winter, not to keep clearly in mind what was taking place to-day and what would inevitably happen in a few months time? Therefore, to the criticism as to the modesty of my proposals, the practical answer I give is that I was more concerned in getting on with the work for the coming months, and an opportunity would be afforded to me and the House later to look beyond that particular period. It is in that spirit and with that intention and object that the Motion we are now discussing and the Motion which I submitted to the House last week have been framed. Last week I asked the House to give sanction to a scheme the ultimate effect of which, I am absolutely certain, will be for the benefit of the Empire as a whole. The immediate effect of the proposals with which I was primarily concerned was, as far as possible, to get work in this country from our Colonies and get it as soon as possible. I am not unmindful of, and I am not likely to forget, the intention of the Government not to ignore the wider aspects of the question, with the whole problem of electrification, the importance of which cannot be minimised, and the benefits of which cannot be over-estimated; but it is the next stage of the problem with which I desire to deal.

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  The same with regard to the question of export credits, all of which is wrapped up with the question of unemployment. It is no good to come to the House with a partial scheme and say that you are going to introduce export credits, and then someone asks: "What is your view with regard to Russia?" My answer is that all aspects of the question will be considered, and when we come with our export credits scheme, we will try to remedy the existing difficulties. Re-member there is a sum of £26,000,000 there not spent. Why? Because there is not the security; because people want a period of years in which they know-there will be continuity of policy. Therefore, I am indicating clearly to the Committee that our intention is to take the big view, but to take it in stages appropriate to the immediate situation and the future development and prosperity of the country. In the same category, I merely refer to what I indicated to the House on the last occasion. Why have I not dealt with the school age and old age pensions? Again, I submit that my main object at the moment is to find work, and find it immediately. It is no good coming to the House of Commons with schemes that have not been carefully thought out and which would not stand the test of criticism and explanation.
  Therefore, it is from that point of view that I approach the problem, and it is in that spirit and with that intention that the Financial Resolution before the Committee is based. I want first efficient transport and cheap power. I knew that there were many possible developments, and in approaching the problem again I had this in mind. I do not know whether this Committee is alive to the danger which arises from our skilled men in the country. There is a large number of skilled men out of work, not only are they losing the appetite for work, but they are losing their skill. That is a very dangerous situation. Again, in considering the framing of the proposals I had in mind not only the unskilled section of the people but the skilled population as well.
  This Motion, and the Bill which will follow, set out certain clearly defined lines of policy. In the first place, unlike the late Government, we intend to put the Unemployment Grants Committee on a Statutory basis. The ex-Chancellor of
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  the Exchequer knows that every one of these grants could have been made illegal by the action of this House. There was no Statutory sanction. It is quite true that they came up for review. We are not supposed to be a people who want all things regularised, but when we found this body spending all this money, trusted with this great authority and responsibility and not made a Statutory body, we took the opportunity of saying right away that our first job was to regularise the situation.
  Therefore, in this Motion I do not propose to make any material change in the position of the Committee or to do anything to impair their efficiency. I propose only to withdraw from the Committee authority to give grants to public utility undertakings carried on for profit which the Committee have not hitherto been able effectively to assist. Here let me remind this Committee that there was considerable criticism about the proposal to develop private enterprise, and there is an hon. Member sitting on the Liberal benches who has been a member of the Unemployment Grants Committee for a number of years— I refer to the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Pybus)— who can tell this Committee of the encouragement and help they have given to private enterprise. They have, unfortunately, been handicapped in the past in this particular connection. Therefore, I propose to regularise the situation. Here let me say that it is my duty to pay tribute to the work of the St. Davids Committee. They have worked hard and well. When it is remembered that they have in 8½ years sanctioned expenditure up to £105,000,000, some idea of the great public service they have rendered will be appreciated by this Committee. The right hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer when dealing with that Committee, in the most airy way said again, "Ah, but you are only continuing our work; that is all that you are doing." What he did not tell the House was that this Committee in 5½ years sanctioned £105,000,000 of expenditure, and then he issued his circular, with the result that, in the next two years, they found themselves unable to sanction more than £1,000,000. The chairman of that Committee and the members know perfectly

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  well that instructions were given to them deliberately to stop the progress of their important work.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: I do not clearly understand the right hon. Gentleman. Did he say he was going to withdraw help and assistance from public utility companies that are working for private profit?
  Mr. THOMAS: I did not say anything of the kind. Let me again emphasise this point. Here is a committee which in 5½ years has lent assistance to local authorities, mainly for good tested schemes, to the extent of an expenditure of £105,000,000. Then it was by the action of the late Government deliberately stopped in its work. The late Government said: "We shall not abolish the committee, for that will look bad; everyone will see through it and that we are abolishing it. What we shall do is that we shall issue a circular and see that the committee is handicapped and hedged round so that it cannot continue its work." Yet the right hen. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer gets us in this House and says: "Ah, but the Labour Government are merely continuing our work."
  In that connection, I propose even to make a further change in the administration of this committee. What is the difficulty at the moment? The committee are tied to a percentage of 15; they must have 15 percent, unemployed before they can give certain grants. That is not only an unreasonable restriction, but one which means that the majority of the local authorities are unable to get the benefit of the scheme. In its application even the figure of 15 percent, is unfair, because you can have a municipality or local authority that has been struggling along for one, two, three or four years trying to deal with its own unemployed and has exhausted all its own resources, but because it did not come up to the 15 percent, standard of unemployment it has been ruled out automatically. That is something which must be swept away, and I intend that the 15 per cent. shall not stand any longer.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: What figure will the right hon. Gentleman substitute?
  Mr. THOMAS: I want to see the figure reduced to 10 per cent. But I want much more than that, because, whatever figure you fix, if it is too rigid it must prove a handicap; any figure when examined must be unfair in relation to the whole problem. Therefore I propose that the committee shall have wide discretion to consider all aspects of the problem regardless of percentage. There is also the question of speeding up. Here again there is a difficulty. The municipality comes along and has to prove that the work that it is submitting for assistance is work that it would not have undertaken until five years hence. That handicaps municipalities; it prevents them from getting on with really practical work. I have decided to abolish the five years and to substitute three years. I ought to say in fairness that I have discussed the whole problem with Lord St. Davids, and I was bound to take, the view, if all the changes were made, that his experience of eight and a-half years ought not only to be applied but would be a valuable indication of what ought to be done. Having discussed the matter in detail with him and argued out all the proposed changes, to quote his own words he felt that the changes I have indicated and intend to make would enable his committee to go on efficiently, and that was all that he required.
  But I have felt obliged to make this appeal. No matter what powers the committee may have, the real danger is the delay on the part of the local authorities. I felt it necessary to issue an appeal to them through the Press last week. Let me give an indication of the difficulty. Here is a highway committee which is the body responsible for one side. There may be another committee of the town council responsible for another side. It is the same with a county council. It may be that when they get a circular they have just met and will not meet again for another month, or it may be the summer holidays and they have adjourned for all the summer period. All those things mean that after they come back and submit schemes, the estimates and the Surveys and the contracts and all those things involve endless delay. I have felt it necessary to appeal to the local autherities to speed up all round so that the committee when

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  it met would not only find itself out of a job, but would find that the municipalities are anxious and willing to cooperate.
  I turn now to the most important section of the Resolution, that dealing with assistance to public utility undertakings operating under statutory powers. These are mainly railway undertakings, and railway companies' docks, tramways, light railways, tubes, electricity and gas undertakings. If any hon. Member takes that list and thinks for a moment of the great possibilities of improvement and development that all of them offer, he will get a better picture of the great improvement that can be made. On a previous occasion I dealt with the London traffic problem. Anyone who goes through the streets of London must say to himself, "Here is something that ought to be undertaken." If anyone takes the trouble to look at the conditions in the morning, when workmen are struggling to get to their work, he will get a picture of the hardship inflicted on the community by the present inefficient methods. I have seen shipowners, I have seen those engaged in commerce, and without a solitary exception they have told me of some harbour or some dock or some new scheme which would tend to improve the efficiency of a port and in the end to benefit trade and commerce. If our object is to find work, surely the best thing is to find useful work such as that which I have indicated?
  Here again one cannot dogmatise about terms. I am offering two alternatives, a guarantee of the interest or principal or both, to a limit of £26,000,000; or, alternatively, the whole or part of the interest on any loan up to a maximum period of 15 years. No undertaking can have both under the scheme; it must have one or the other. My reason for that restriction is this: There are many bodies that I know of which would do all manner of useful work if they were able to borrow money on reasonable terms. They cannot go into the market and pay the high rates that would be necessary on their own credit, but with the Government guarantee that is provided in the Bill that I shall introduce, there are many undertakings that would immediately say, "Yes, now that we can get money at a cheap and reasonable rate we have no hesitation in going on with development
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  work." Many undertakings that I need not mention now come under that category.
  Mr. SULLIVAN: Is Scotland included in this scheme?
  Mr. THOMAS: When I am dealing with the subject I am dealing with the whole of the country. I ask the hon. Member to appreciate that when I speak of these schemes and the terms and conditions, they are applicable to all. Take Glasgow as an illustration. There is a traffic problem there. If Glasgow likes to submit a reasonable scheme that will stand examination, Glasgow is in precisely the same category as London or any other place.
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Or Leith docks?
  Mr. THOMAS: Or any other place. In other words none is ruled out, provided it has a reasonable scheme that will stand the test that I have mentioned. I have submitted to the Committee the reasons for the first part of the proposal, namely the loan. But there are other undertakings that have made it perfectly clear that that would be of no value to them. They put up schemes of which they say: "We ourselves could not undertake the electrification of a section of railway for perhaps two or three or five or seven years. We know perfectly well that it would justify itself in that period, but you ask us to undertake it now. We could not. possibly do it." In order to get over that difficulty I am taking power to grant, in part or in whole, the interest for any period up to a maximum of 15 years. It is only fair to say that no Minister would be justified in taking that responsibility himself. There are the varying nature of the undertakings, the complications, the 101 considerations that will have to be taken into account on their merits, and they necessitate consideration from every point of view, more especially from the public point of view.
  The result would be this: In all these schemes, before any terms are made, there will be a committee at work. Here I am pleased to say that there are a large number of public-spirited men of all parties who want to help and are prepared to help in the work of this committee and in colonial development. In a few days I shall be able to submit to the House names representing every

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  branch of industry, engineering, roads, finance and commerce, names of men of wide and varied experience who are prepared to sit on the committee as judges of the particular merits of any of these schemes and of the terms. That in itself will be a guarantee to this House. Equally it is only fair to say that in appointing this committee I did not appoint them on the same basis as the circular of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer; that is to say I did not issue a circular with a view of stopping the committee from doing anything. I am not appointing this committee merely with a view of having nothing done. I made it perfectly clear to them that their business experience and knowledge of commerce and industry were such that I wanted to avail myself of them, and they in the public interest were ready to serve. They know the problem, its difficulties, and the need for urgency; and they will be sitting with the necessary safeguards in mind and at the same time will be conscious of the need for speeding up the work as far as it is humanly possible to do so.
  Those, broadly, are the powers contained in the Financial Resolution, the proposals dealt with in which will be ultimately submitted in the Bill. I have given to the Committee a broad outline of my views. It is only fair to say that when I sit down to consider this problem— and I have applied myself strenuously to it— every day and every hour convinces me not only of the formidable nature of the task, but of the hundred and one difficulties which one has to get over. You start on one scheme and you find that a local authority has to be consulted here or an Act of Parliament passed there. You find, on the other hand, that surveys and specifications have to be gone through. All these matters I have to deal with, and I often find that the balance is equal. One simple illustration will indicate what I mean. I have to determine in some schemes as to the relative value of finding employment for unemployed people in a great electrical undertaking, which is generating power from water, balancing against that the effect on the coal industry which is affected by it. All these factors I am dealing with.
  These proposals may be called modest and may be criticised because they are not
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  bold enough, but I beg of the Committee to believe me when I say that the maximum that I can see to be done to-day is being done. I will not hesitate to ask for further powers or for bigger schemes, but I am entitled to say that the Committee ought to support me in not asking for more money than I can usefully and properly use. There is no point in merely talking about millions unless you can use them. This I can do. This I can set to definite purpose. In conclusion, I ask critics to remember this. I met City business men, while discussing these proposals, and some of then said to me: "Do you remember the cost and the millions that have been paid?" I said: "I do remember it," and I say to the Committee that when you calculate the cost from 1918 until to-day in unemployment benefit, boards of guardians relief, the Lord St. Davids Committee, and so on, it is a colossal and amazing figure calculated in millions. Bui every day that I deal with this problem brings home to my own personal knowledge what I say to this Committee deliberately, as I said to those business men— "Do not make the mistake of assessing the danger of these problems merely on the financial side. The cost is heavy as a burden and we cannot minimise it, but the demoralisation of our people, the feeling that they have lost hope and do not care what becomes of there, is far more dangerous to the future of this country, and the longer that goes in the worse it will be."
  That is my answer to the question. I have not lost sight of it. I ask the Committee to believe me when I say that I know the limitations of this scheme, I know its imperfections, and I know all the criticism?, that can be levelled against it; but I submit that, for a start, it is the best scheme possible. It gives an opportunity, it enables many things to be done which would not otherwise be done, and, as far as finance is concerned, that will not be a barrier. I have asked the authorities outside to help by sending on their schemes, and I ask the Members of the Committee to help by sending individual schemes which they know of. Our object and intention is not merely to spend money blindly— because anyone can do that— but to spend money wisely and well for the ultimate development and benefit of the country.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The Lord Privy Seal opened his speech in a somewhat controversial and even, one might say, truculent mood and tone, but, as he continued, he very soon sank to the querulous, and before he had finished he was frankly in the plaintive state. He was first controversial at my expense, and I rise largely for the purpose of reassuring him, of comforting him, of cheering him up, of making him feel that, after all, it is not quite as bad as he evidently has been led to feel. I intended, and I certainly propose to carry out my purpose, to pay him some compliments and to pay a tribute to him in various respects. Let me begin by assuring him that he is still even after a fortnight at this task, in possession of the sympathy of the whole Committee. I think no one can doubt the difficulty of what ho has undertaken. No one can doubt the immense exertions and efforts that it will call for from him; the constant, incessant, strenuous attention to every detail of these schemes, the wearing sense of responsibility, the gnawing worries which arise when one considers all that one has said in the past, the unpleasant contrast which daily develops between promise and performance. From all these points of view, I say that a sympathy, sincere and sufficiently strong to overflow both the Gangway and the Floor, may be extended to the hon. Gentleman.
  I will address myself to his scheme as set out in the Resolution. In the first paragraph, he proposes to obtain powers to make loans amounting in the total to £25,000,000 for what I will call— as it is the name which has always been used before— trade facilities. That is all it is. That is the old name. You can invent a new name if you like but that is what it is— trade facilities to help unemployment. On the merits, there is, I think, no objection to be raised against his proposal, at any rate no serious objection. There may be some criticism on details and so forth, and the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to welcome that, but there is no question of any opposition in principle to the idea of using State credit to the extent of £25,000,000 in a trade facilities scheme so moderately conceived, so soberly presented and so carefully hedged about— as the White Paper shows— so strictly limited in scale, and so rigorously disciplined by Treasury
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  experts. On such a scheme, there really can be no immediate or serious controversial difference in any quarter of the Committee.
  When I spoke in the Debate on the Address in answer to the right hon. Gentleman I expressed only the first impression I had of his scheme. I had no idea of what it was going to be. I had, in fact, prepared myself to make quite a different speech, pointing out the ruin to our finance which would ensue from a lavish squandering of public money on the kind of scheme with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has associated himself and I was agreeably surprised by the general character and tenor of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Further reflection and a closer study of his speech, of his scheme, and of the White Paper have confirmed all those first impressions which I sustained after listening to his very illuminating, agreeable, and attractive statement. I cannot see any ground principle on which we, as a party, need oppose the Resolution or the Bill which it is sought to found upon it. There is nothing new or novel about it, no startling discovery or departure of any kind.
  There is only one point in the right hon. Gentleman's remedies for unemployment which was novel to me, and that was drawn attention to by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, namely, the proposal to get Mr. Courtauld, or some other silk manufacturer, to start up a factory in the Rhondda Valley for the miners who are out of work and for public money to be advanced for that purpose. I do not see in this Resolution any point which covers that, but it is a very interesting point, and I do not express any opinion whether it is a wise provision or not, but, apart from that, I know of nothing that is new in this scheme.
  We have had a long and full experience of this kind of schemes of trade facilities which are set out in the first paragraph, not only under the late Government, but under the last three or four Governments. They were originally devised, as all these remedies for, and efforts to cope with, unemployment were originally devised, in the days of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, when the great and terrible crisis of unemployment came upon

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  us in the deflation period after the Great War; and I do not think the Committee would run any risk in lending itself to these schemes. After all, we have had great experience of them. We know perfectly well what happens and the limits within which good results or bad results are to be expected. We have all tried trade facilities, and on a much larger scale than this. Opinions may differ as to what the results were, but all opinions will be agreed that those results are confined within a very limited area of importance. I am glad to see that the money is not to be spent all at once, but that it is only to be spent as it is wanted, that it is not to be borrowed or spent except as it is required. That, I think, is very wise. Fresh powers have to be sought in the event of this £25,000,000 loan for guarantees being exceeded, and so far we shall have an opportunity of re-considering the whole matter, of seeing how it is working out, what progress has been made, and what results have attended the schemes. That is all perfectly correct, and I am sure no one would deny the Government's request.
  Now I am going to pay my compliment to the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal, which I think he has de-served. I compliment him— and I am sure it will be agreed by all Members of the Committee that it is deserved— on having resisted the temptation— he has told us again to-day how he has resisted it— to be drawn into megalomania. [Interruption.] He has resisted the temptation to play up to any of those grandiose and flamboyant schemes with which the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs hoped he would rehabilitate the Liberal party. I congratulate him upon these schemes, and I congratulate the Treasury on the strictness of their control. No doubt these plans will contain some useful feature. No doubt some desirable enterprises, whether by local authorities, by private authorities, by private capitalists or by statutory bodies will be started a little earlier than they, would otherwise have been begun, and others, which perhaps are beneath the threshold of economic utility, will just be lifted into actual existence. No one can doubt that some help will be given in this respect, and it may well be that a number of useful enterprises will be set
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  on foot. But even the right hon. Gentleman, I think, will not claim for his schemes more than that they will be a tonic to industry so far as they go, that they will give it a little fillip. The encouragement in paragraph (1) will give a little fillip, a little titivation of encouragement, a stimulant, a dope, if I might say so, to industry, which perhaps will have good results.
  I would praise him also for not hesitating to help private enterprise where it is engaged in public utilities, and, as has been said, though I am not certain whether it was endorsed by the Treasury Bench, not hesitating to help private enterprise in matters so far removed from public utilities as to cover the manufacture of silk stockings, which perhaps would come under the heading of public necessities. At any rate, private enterprise is to be helped and sustained with public money. That is an important development and fortification of the Capitalist system, which is very remarkable, coming from the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends, and gratulate him on not being hampered by foolish Socialist ideas about profit-seeking being a crime, all that sort of nonsense about rent and interest being exploitation, about private enterprise being the exploitation of the worker. All that nonsense is swept away, and the right hon. Gentleman has not hesitated to cut himself adrift at the outset of his responsibilities from all the nonsense which he and his Friends have talked, so long and so loudly, in Opposition.
  I also congratulate him on consulting the business men and the great employers; and, let me say this, that it is their duty to help the Government. Being the Government, they ought to be assisted in non-party matters by anybody, and, if the right hon. Gentleman goes to the great employers of labour and heads of big businesses and asks them, as he has so wisely asked them, for their aid and assistance, they ought not to allow any party or personal considerations to stand in the way of giving the best help they possibly can. The task is heavy enough. So far as I have been confronted by some of these gentlemen, I have said, "It is your duty to help the Government in every way you can to minimise the difficulties of the unemployment position."

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  But what I liked about the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and especially about the closing portion of it, was the new application of the doctrine which has been called inevitability of gradualness— the inevitability of gradualness in attaining the Socialist ideal. There is certainly gradualness here, and I have no doubt there is inevitability also, but what I am glad to see about it is that the gradualness is in a new direction. It is gradualness, not forward, but backward. What we are witnessing in paragraph (1) of this Resolution is the gradual retreat from the claptrap and folly of Socialism to the firm ground of the modern Capitalist system.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal has, like Beaconsfield, to educate his party. He has to teach them, and he has been teaching them. He may even have been, as it is sometimes called, "learning" them; and they have a lot to learn. He has to teach them that everything he taught them to say when they were out of office is all wrong, and that what they have to do is to support the opposite when put forward by the very man whom they chose to carry his original doctrines into effect. That is a very stiff course, but I hope they will not mind this salutary discipline. They had some chastisement in public the other day from the right hon. Gentleman, and I understand that at a private conclave this morning further chastening of a more severe disciplinary kind has been administered. That is, perhaps, the explanation of the absence of the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). I am glad to see, though, that he has come into the House now, and that he has apparently survived the ordeal. He has returned, I trust, in a sober, contrite, and humble spirit.
  I entirely agree with the course which the Lord Privy Seal has taken. Everyone knows that he is a very shrewd and practical man, and, indeed, he would not have lived through all he has done so successfully if he had not got as many lives as a cat, and almost every gift of practical human ingenuity. I think he is absolutely right. It is a very bad thing to deceive people, to gull people. It is very unfortunate that he should have been Jed into deceiving them and gulling them, but it is far better to throw foolish words aside, and not to translate them into still more foolish action. Therefore,
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  for all these reasons, which I have been endeavouring to express, so far as the Conservative party, for whom I have the duty of speaking, is concerned, we shall make no difficulties about granting the request which the Government make to us in this Resolution.
  Paragraphs (2) and (3) of the Resolution, which deal with the grants to public utility undertakings, local authorities, and statutory bodies, are not, of course, comprised within the ambit of the £25,000,000 for guarantees, and we are told in the White Paper that no limit is assigned to the expenditure which may be incurred, but we are also assured that Parliament is to vote in every case upon the details of expenditure, and that Parliamentary control will be retained.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Is that so?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: It is at the end of the White Paper:
  "In any case full Parliamentary control will be secured by the necessity for a Parliamentary Vote of the grants to be made."
  5.0 p.m.
  Therefore, you may really say that there is nothing in Paragraphs (2) and (3) except the intention of the Government to produce plans on the subject at a later date, and to submit their proposals to the House of Commons. Nobody could object to that. It is the right of any Government, of every Government, to make any proposal for the spending of money if they think that advantage will result to the community. No one could possibly object to that, but, in the absence of any proposals, none having yet been made, we can only await the further development of the right hon. Gentleman's plans. We find ourselves this afternoon in the presense of the Government's complete policy for dealing with unemployment, apart from certain Votes which they will present for the helping by grants of local and statutory bodies. I should like to point out to the Committee that this Motion comprises the whole policy with inconsiderable exceptions. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the £6,500,000 which is to be spent upon the railways, but that was already provided, and arranged for, and announced to Parliament in the Budget. The right hon. Gentleman made the criticism that nothing had been done to establish the principle on which this money was to be

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  spent. The Budget was only in the middle of April, and Parliament was dissolved before the end of May; at the beginning of May, the railway companies were asked to prepare schemes, and the natural time to consider them would have been when they were brought before us. Far be it from me to rob the right hon. gentleman of any credit for any schemes which he puts forward, but I advise him not to base any recommendation to abolish the unemployment disease upon the fact that he received a proposal from the railway companies to dispose of the money which Parliament had already decided that they should have in accordance with the agreement entered into with them before the Election.
  There is the question of the road programme. The right hon. Gentleman said that I had turned down a £9,500,000 scheme. There never was any intention of not spending upon road development all the remaining moneys which are derived from the revenues of the Road Fund. That is all that His Majesty's Government are doing; they are merely spending the remaining money—
  Mr. THOMAS: I made the specific statement that the right hon. Gentleman's Government turned down the £9,500,000 scheme point blank and said that they would have nothing to do with it. I made that statement, and it is true.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: It might well be true and yet quite irrelevant to the argument, because the question in all these schemes is not only the question of adopting a scheme at a particular moment before the revenues are there, but of adopting it a year later when the revenues have grown up. Our intentions were, and our public declarations were, that the whole of the money of the Road Fund, or what was left of the Road Fund— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]. I shall come to that later, and I notice the Chancellor of the Exchequer beginning to get rather uneasy— was to be spent on the development of what we thought to be the best programmes normally year after year, but what has the right hen. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer done? He used to be the foremost in accusing me of larceny, theft, and I forget what other he used but he used stronger words.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): "Pilferer" and "plunderer!"
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The right hon. Gentleman did much better than that, and I hope that he will be more like his own self, in spite of his cares of office, and that before we get though the Session we shall hear some of his rasping adjectives, for I hope that- he is not so crushed down by the weight of official responsibility that he cannot express himself with his natural fluency. What has the right hon. Gentleman done? I took certain lump sums from the surplus of the Road Fund, and I am very glad that I did it, and I would do it again in the same circumstances. In addition to that, I claimed £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 a year under the heading of luxury charges from the Road Fund, and the Exchequer is now enjoying them. That was a said to deprive the Fund of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 a year, and the right hon. Gentleman is dabbling in the proceeds of this raid at the present moment. Talk about developing any new expenditure and any new policy: They have simply carried on the policy which was going to be carried out in any case, and have even adhered to the policy of extracting from the revenues of the Road Fund between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000 in aid of the general expenses of the Exchequer. I agree with the right hen. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; I think that he is quite rightly holding on to this money, but we cannon have all these heroics from the Lord Privy Seal about how shocking the late Government were, and how magnificent he is in embarking on this road development. Not a farthing is being spent out of the Road Fund that would not have been applied in the ordinary way.
  As to Colonial development, which afforded the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of expressing his devotion to our great and glorious Empire, some parts of which he is visiting at no distant date, he is only spending the revenue of the £10,000,000 which was voted and proposed by the late Government. It is quite true that the money was not spent as fast as we expected, and as fast as it ought to have been. There were, however, very good reasons in each case, and I am bound to save that the highly competent

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  experts of the Treasury in matters of detail were more than a match for the experts of the other Departments in proposing schemes, and they advanced extremely good reasons why particular things ought not to be done and could not be done, and why this and that would not work. For instance, in connection with the Zambesi Bridge, they pointed out that the Portuguese had rights over it if we had proceeded then, and that it would have been found very inconvenient. I agree that there should be a loosening, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to spend this money more freely. It is, however, only the money that was set aside by the late Administration, and the right hon. Gentleman cannot claim to use it as if it were another store of gas with which to inflate his unemployment remedy balloon.
  I do not think that I have omitted anything in the scheme of unemployment relief which is before the Committee. I have forgotten one thing, however— Lord St. Davids Committee. I had forgotten that Committee which is stressed so strongly. The right hon. Gentlemen is going to regularise the Committee, to invest them with statutory power, and to widen their scope. The right hon. Gentleman reproached me very much with the fact that we limited the functions of that Committee in 1926, but on what grounds was it done I We read what the Committee themselves said in 1926. They said that:
  "Broadly speaking, it would appear that the scheme, which has now been in operation for six consecutive winters has, largely for that very reason, passed the period of its greatest utility, and that if pursued indefinitely to the same extent as in the past, it would be difficult to avoid subsidising work properly undertaken by local authorities in the normal course of their business, and in such case but little could be added to the sum total of work performed in the country.
  In so far as special schemes might continue to be evolved, there is the further objection that they might well have the tendency to divert capital from the normal trade developments which are now to be looked for, and would thus hinder rather than assist the relief of unemployment through the proper channel of trade recovery."
  That is one reason why we curtailed the activity of Lord St. Davids Committee. It was by their own advice, and the advice of the very experts and
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  gentleman to whom the right hon. Gentleman paid such a high tribute this afternoon. It may well be that in the three years that have passed since 1326 some leeway which can be made up has accumulated, and that there are local authorities which wish to embark on new work if they can get a little assistance, work which they would not attempt but for assistance. I make no objection to it, and I should apologise to the right hon. Gentleman because, in describing his. scheme for remedying unemployment, I omitted to mention the fact that he is endowing Lord St. Davids Committee with statutory authority.
  I have so far been in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman, but I fear that I must part company with him upon the suggestion contained in the White Paper that these proposals are going to be a remedy for unemployment. They may be quite good in themselves, and I think that we all pretty well agree about them, but they are put forward as a cure for unemployment and raise issues of a very different order, and I believe that the result which they will bring to the volume of unemployment will be entirely negligible. I will endeavour to support that by three sets of considerations. First of all, take the scale of any of the proposals now before us. They are inconceivably small. The late Government, so abused, so infirm of purpose and feeble in dealing with these matters, spent £100,000,000 a year in loans and expenditure on Colonial, domestic and local developments, and we found no remedy. In 1922, the then Financial Secretary for the Treasury, Lord Cushendun, gave figures to the House which showed that £63,000,000 had been provided under trade facilities, and that £63,000,000 worth of schemes had been started. He calculated then that 100,000 men had found employment in virtue of the starting of those schemes. I do not accept that, for I think that it is very questionable whether there was not as much employment killed in other directions as was started by that money. Even if you take that figure and apply it to the £25,000,000 of Paragraph 1, we get about 30,000 or 35,000 men who may be expected to find work, if everything works well and if the whole of this new expenditure operates without detriment to any other industry elsewhere in the country.

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  Compare this scheme of £25,000,000 in Paragraph I with the rating reform scheme of the late Government. When I mentioned this in the Debate on the Address, I noticed scornful laughter on the Benches opposite, but it is our best hope at the present time. I know the sincerity of hon. Gentlemen about the evils of unemployment, and the agony which they see in their constituencies of friends with whom they come in contact on the matter, and I say that it is our best hope. Compare it with this scheme. A relief of £30,000,000 a year for productive industry all over the country operates from next October in perpetuity. The capitalised value of that is £600,000,000, and that is a figure which is comparable to the £25,000,000 about which we are talking now. It amuses me when I read the newspapers to see the different standards by which the actions of the various Administrations are judged. We produce from the labours of two years, and with the gathering together of all the revenues we could secure, past, present and future, this £30,000,000 a year to go as relief to our heavily burdened basic industries, and it is whisked aside as if it were a thing too trifling to be mentioned, whereas the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with £25,000,000 of trade facilities— a little slice cut off the old hambone— and we are told of vast schemes to cure unemployment, and what a gratifying thing it is for the country to see real energy and courage on the Treasury Bench.
  I do not believe that these proposals will have the slightest effect upon the number of persons upon the live register of unemployment, or that there will be any appreciable difference at any time with which the present Government are likely to be concerned, or in any time that we shall be able to measure or appraise. They may do good in themselves. Some things may be done which it is a very good thing should be done, and future generations may be quite content, but the limited scale of these proposals excludes them from the category of effectual remedies. With 1,250,000 unemployed at the present time and with over 16,000,000 insured persons, this additional £25,000,000 a year is but a small tonic to stimulate industry.
  Mr. THOMAS: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I am sure he only desires to be fair. I do not mind his party points, but he must know, as he has read the White Paper, that the £25,000,000 is a fraction compared with Part II.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Quite right.
  Mr. THOMAS: Yes, quite right, but I want to inform the Committee. Incidentally, he is incorrect in assuming that any of this money must be first sanctioned by the House of Commons. That is not in the Bill, it is not what is intended, and it would be ridiculous if it were suggested.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving this information, although he has somewhat interrupted the theme which I was developing, but the last paragraph of his White Paper says:
  "in any case full Parliamentary control will be secured by the necessity for a Parliamentary Vote of the grants to be made."
  That is all I say about that. We never suggested that the right hon. Gentleman had to come to the House of Commons before going on with any scheme, but at frequent intervals he will state his definite schemes and we shall say whether they are good, bad or indifferent. So there is very little disagreement between us. I am dealing only with the proposals actually before us. We have yet to learn his other proposals. The right hon. Gentleman is in the position of a man who comes forward with a remedy for curing a disease, and in this Parliament we are listening with bated breath to his solution of the difficulty. The only solution is £25,000,000 of guarantees, and the fact that he is going to submit to Parliament in due course various schemes for helping the local authorities, as we did to a very large extent year after year, and encouraging them to go forward with local developments. So far as curing unemployment on this scale and dealing with this ghastly problem, which, one may say, ruined the prestige, of the Conservative administration in the last Parliament— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, I admit that. You used it in a manner to make it most detrimental to those who were in power. But I say that the schemes of the Lord Privy Seal for curing the great problem of un-employment

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  are absolutely visionary and futile. They are good in themselves, but are absolutely futile as a cure. He might' just as well go down on to the terrace on some afternoon when the tide is high, take a tea cup from one of the tables, and try to bale out the Thames as imagine that the proposal he is now putting before Parliament is going to be any effective solution of this grim and grey social evil.
  I come now to the Treasury argument. The Treasury argument is that the money which the Lord Privy Seal gets to spend in one direction will only be abstracted from a fairly limited supply of credit, and the effects of it will be manifest in unemployment in other quarter. That is their argument, and I hope I am going to hear in this Debate some statement from the right hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman). He may have had to make a judicious dive at the General Election to conceal his convictions in order not to impair his newly grown affinity with the Leader of the Liberal party, but now he is safe with us in the new House of Commons—
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: What about Mr. Amery?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: We all have our affinities; he might courageously stand up and express his views upon the economic principles of the Treasury case. They definitely say, "Make it just as much as you like, be it on a big scale or be it on a small scale, unless you inflate public credit by the artificial manufacture of credit you will not add to the volume of employment." That is their case, and it is not a mere theoretical case, but is the truth about the existing financial situation. It is contended that there is the fullest use of all the credit available in the banks, with even a tendency to overstrain banking facilities given to industry. That is their case, that is the proposition which they put forward, and I hope we shall hear from the hon. Gentleman in whose name this Resolution stands some exposition of the Treasury views, because it would be most unfortunate, now that all the hopes of the unemployed are concentrated upon the schemes of the right hon. Gentleman, if we found out that after all we were barking up the wrong tree and that no extension of Government
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  credit would in fact create new employment, unless accompanied by an act of financial inflation.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster stated in the course of his interesting speech— his maiden speech from the Treasury Bench was a very able speech if he will allow me to say so, if he had not got into trouble with his noughts— that he knew the Treasury view but that the electors had repudiated it, had pronounced against it at the election. I think that is quite true. Undoubtedly they pronounced against it. Unfortunately, on questions of economic law it does not matter at all what the electors think or vote or say. The economic laws proceed. [Interruption.] You may vote by overwhelming majorities that you can cure unemployment by public works on borrowed money, but that will not have the slightest effect upon the results, whatever they may be, which you achieve by your programmes. I am finishing now, and I will not detain the House any longer. I think these large topics ought to be fully explored. It is really only an act of courtesy to the Lord Privy Seal that we should do full justice to the magnitude or otherwise of his proposals.
  I am submitting that there is no hope of curing unemployment in any of the proposals we have heard from the Treasury Bench, and I am now going to say that the Government themselves know there is no hope that any of their proposals will, in fact, produce an effective diminution of unemployment. What have we been listening to in the last two or throe days? We have been dealing with Unemployment Insurance. The Unemployment Insurance Fund is solvent if the figure of unemployment falls below 1,050,000, on the old basis. The moment the figure of unemployment falls below 1,050,000 the debt of the Fund will begin to be paid off. [Interruption.] We had the debt down to £7,500,000 just before the unfortunate labour troubles of 1926. If there is going to be any improvement in unemployment, there was no need for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take from his slender purse the £3,500,000 which he is proposing to take— I quite agree that on financial grounds it was a respectable and proper proceeding— no need to take that from the slender resources

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  which he will he looking over before the end of the year, and using it to endow the Fund. If he believes that unemployment IS going to fall, if he thought the Government remedies were going to have any effect upon the figure of unemployment, it would have been quite easy for him to have let the matter stand over and to have gone in for a little extra borrowing. Then, if matters turned out well, in a very short time the Fund would be solvent again, or on a solvent basis.
  But the Government do not believe that. They have taken a more gloomy view than I have felt justified in taking, and I dare say they are right. They are budgeting for a figure of 1,200,000 unemployed running through the winter, and they are making arrangements— I do not say they are wrong— on a scale to enable them to bear the whole of the brunt and weight of this terrible burden of unemployment. They have no serious expectation that the figure of unemployment will fall below 1,000,000 as the result of any measures which the Lord Privy Seal is going to take. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman himself, when dealing with this matter in the Debate on the Address, had already begun to whittle away the figures of the unemployed. He is going through just the process which I went through in the General Election, and some of the very arguments I used he used in regard to what is the normal residue of the unemployed. I remember very well how the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and I were found fault with by the "Daily Herald." Though we were much opposed in the particular controversy, we both talked of a certain normal figure of unemployment, and I remember the indignation to which the "Daily Herald" was moved. They seemed to imagine that hundreds of thousands of our working people are condemned to live permanently in this hideous and miserable condition. [HON. MEMBERS: "So they are!"] We have to read the literature of our masters nowadays, and the other day I was reading "Labour and the Nation." It says on page 7:
  "For four years more than 1,000,000 workers have been deprived through no fault of their own of the opportunity of adding their quota to the nation's output of wealth."
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  And on page 20 it says further:
  "The Labour party will not be satisfied, as capitalist Government have hitherto been satisfied, merely will tinkering with unemployment."
  And what did the right bon. Gentleman say? I noted it particularly, because he was agreeing with me. He was repeating one of the arguments which I had been using at the General Election. It had sunk into one brain, at any rate. He said:
  "When we talk of the live register and deduce from those figures the fact that a million or more of our fellows are unemployed, that gives an entirely wrong picture of the situation to the outsider. The position is not exactly that. Of that total at least 50 percent, are men and women of many of whom it can he truthfull said that they are unemployed it may he on Monday and find employment before Saturday. That is not a difficult problem to deal with. That is a problem which the unemployment Insurance Act was intended to deal with."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd July, 1929; col. 91, Vol. 229.]
  I am not going to read the whole of it. The House will notice the extraordinary rapidity with which the educative process of Governmental responsibility is having its effect upon the Lord Privy Seal. Only a few weeks have converted him from the phrase about more than a million workers having been deprived through no fault of their own of the opportunity of adding their quota to the nation's output of wealth into the statement:
  "That gives an entirely wrong picture of the situation."
  Two weeks have translated the right hon. Gentleman from a leader and inspirer of ravening millions into the sleek apologist of power. If those plans had been presented by the late Government, if we had been returned with a diminished majority and had brought those plans forward from the Treasury Bench, they would have been laughed out of court as a remedy for the unemployment problem. They would have been denounced as shams and trivial makeshifts by every Minister who is now prepared to support them. Although I must admit that those plans look innocent, inoffensive, and modest in them selves, they run counter to the orthodox Treasury view, and that is a very serious thing on an economic question. The unemployment problem remains utterly unsolved. Putting

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  it at the best, let us hope that the Treasury are wrong. What is now proposed is only a mild tonic and encouragement to certain particular industries, local enterprises, and private interests which may be beneficial in themselves, but the benefit which can be gained by those private interests and local bodies by the additional employment which may flow from their stimulus will be far more than swept away and counterbalanced by the disturbances which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is making by undermining the whole principle of inter-Imperial trade, by prolonging uncertainty, and by the vicious and heavy taxation which I have no doubt whatever will be the consequence of the pressure and stress which is rife within the party opposite, and which will herald the dawn of the new year.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not rise in order to criticise or defend, but rather to administer a few interrogatories to the Lord Privy Seal in order to elucidate two or three propositions which are not quite clear to my hon. Friends and myself. The proposals which have been welcomed with such warmth and commendation by the ox-Chancellor of the Exchequer do not diminish the disappointment with which I first heard them. It would be idle for me to pretend that hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen were not distinctly convinced after a good deal of examination that something of a very much bolder character on a larger scale was essential in order, not to cure unemployment, but to deal with normal unemployment.
  Mr. THOMAS: I indicated when I spoke last, and I do so again now, that I have turned nothing down. If my right hon. Friend carefully examines the Financial Resolution, he will find that it embraces anything.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is why I am going to administer a few interrogatories, because I think these proposals fall far short of any scheme which is essential for dealing with the problem on the lines which the Lord Privy Seal laid down for the coming winter. I accept the dictum of the right hon. Gentleman that it is no use having schemes which will fructify in five, ten, or fifteen years. The Government are confronted with the problem in the coming winter, and' this scheme must be criticised from that point of view. I want to put a few questions
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  to the Lord Privy Seal in order to make it clear what is the actual scheme. I come, first of all, to the question of the roads. As far as I can follow the proposals which have been submitted to the Committee, I take exactly the same view as the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not see anything in the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman which go beyond the utilisation of what remains of the Road Fund after the various raids which have been made upon it. There is nothing in these proposals beyond the utilisation of that miserable remnant of the Road Fund for improving roads and constructing bridges. The Lord Privy Seal has pressed the local authorities throughout the country to send in suggestions to him and to submit schemes, and I think that is right. At any rate, it is better that the initiative should come from them in so far as mere local alterations are concerned. But that does not apply to schemes for trunk roads, and it does not apply to the general improvement of the unclassified roads which is essential in order to improve marketing in our agricultural areas. This Resolution does not deal with the problem of London traffic, and in those three categories the Government should take the initiative on a large scale, and not wait for the action of thousands of petty little local authorities here and there across the country. Let us assume that the local authorities respond readily and liberally to the invitation of the right hon. Gentleman and send to him in the course of the next few weeks a number of good schemes which will pass the muster of his expert examiners.
  Mr. THOMAS: I think the right hon. Gentleman must be aware that it is out of order to deal with those questions upon this Resolution, and that is why I did not deal with them. It would be out of order, because there is nothing in the Financial Resolution dealing with that aspect of the question.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not quite follow that argument, because the Lord Privy Seal said a good deal about roads and the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer has replied to his arguments at considerable length. If those two speeches have been permitted by the Chair, then it must be in order for me to reply to them in continuing the Debate. Therefore, I really must pursue my questions,

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  because it is very important from the point of view of knowing exactly where we stand. I understand that on the whole we are going to have a review of the schemes of the Government with regard to unemployment for the coming winter. This is a very important question. Supposing the schemes which are sent in to the Lord Privy Seal are all good schemes that pass the muster of his Department and the aggregate amount of the schemes goes beyond the amount of cash available within this financial year. I do not know what the amount is, but suppose it is £7,000,000 or £8,000,000? Let U.S suppose that those schemes will run up to £20,000,000. Under those circumstances, I want to know: Will the right hon. Gentleman cut down his scheme so that it will come within the limit of the amount available within the current year, or is he proposing to widen the basis of the Road! Fund in order to enable him to proceed with schemes of which he himself approves? Will the right hon. Gentleman cut the amount down to the limit of his income, or is he going to borrow money on the Road Fund for that purpose? That is an important question, and it makes a very great deal of difference when you come to consider the question of the number of people who are going to be employed.
  Mr. THOMAS: The right hon. Gentleman did not take that view when I introduced my proposals. He said that there was nothing in them, and that is why I did not deal with the question of the roads. The specific question which has been put to me is: Supposing I find that the expenditure allocated for this year or next year from the Road Fund for schemes approved and which I think ought to be gone on with, is not sufficient, am I limited to the money available for that year? Certainly not. I mortgage the future. I said so before, and I repeat my statement now.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If that statement has been made before, it has escaped my notice, and I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. What I now understand is that the schemes which are submitted and approved by the right hon. Gentleman are not to be limited merely by the cash available, but by the quality of
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  the schemes; and, if the schemes run to twice the amount of the income which he has at the present time, I understand the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to mortgage the revenue and anticipate and spend, if necessary, £15,000,000 or £20,000,000, although his income may be only £5,000,000 or £6,000,000. If that be the case, then the position is much more satisfactory.
  I should like to know upon what authority he proposes to borrow. I am distinctly better pleased with the schemes now that I know that the right hon. Gentleman intends to anticipate the revenue for the purpose of spending money upon road development in the coming winter. The Lord Privy Seal has told us there is nothing in the White Paper which deals with roads. I assume, therefore, that there is nothing of that kind in the Resolution, and I should like to ask under what Parliamentary authority the right hon. Gentleman proposes to borrow money on the Road Fund.
  Mr. THOMAS: The right hon. Gentleman cannot have read the clear statement which I made in the last Debate. This Financial Resolution does not deal with the Road Fund. I have already stated that, if the amount taken from the Road Fund is exceeded in any one year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will introduce the necessary legislation to enlarge the resources of the Fund in order to meet the expenditure.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is not the question I am putting. According to the statement which the Lord Privy Seal has just made, he is prepared to introduce legislation for enlarging the resources of the Fund. That might mean an increase in the Petrol Duty or some duty or other. Does the right hon. Gentleman propose under those conditions to allow us to separate in another fortnight without dealing with this important problem? So far as the relief of unemployment during the coming winter is concerned, it will depend entirely upon the schemes which the Lord Privy Seal puts forward during the next few weeks. No one knows better than the right hon. Gentleman that the preliminary expenditure must be incurred. We must assume that three months will be spent in preliminaries before any scheme can be put into operation. I am not complaining that the right hon.

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  Gentleman has not put anything into operation and will not do so for the next couple of months, but the schemes must be ready, steps must be taken to begin them, long before Parliament meets in November. Therefore, we really ought to know from the right hon. Gentleman if there are schemes that go beyond this miserable remnant left by the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer out of the Road Fund, and whether he is going to borrow on it; and I trust that, before this Debate is over, we shall get a definite answer upon that, because I think it is very vital, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman has said. He has never attached due importance to road development from the point of view of employment. I think that, the more he goes into it, the more he will find that that is the readiest method of dealing with this problem, and I hope that when he does he will also take full borrowing powers to meet his responsibilities in this respect. I make that suggestion to him very respectfully, and I press it upon him, because I can assure him, having gone into the matter very carefully, that I am certain that that is necessary.
  Now I come to the second point that I would put to the right hon. Gentleman, and that is with regard to paragraph (2) of the Resolution. I do not even new quite understand, even after the explanation given to the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, what the position is with regard to paragraph (2). Paragraph (1) deals with what is known as Trade Facilities, as I understand it— the £25,000,000. It was known as Trade Facilities. Under those Trade Facilities borrowings, the tube to Edgware was constructed. A sum of £12,000,000 was borrowed for that purpose. I believe the total amount borrowed under Trade Facilities was well over £70,000,000. The loss to the Treasury was only comparatively a trifle. Most of the money has been recovered and paid back. There has been no loss except a comparatively small one up to the present. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to extend Trade Facilities— it comes to neither more nor less than that. Naturally, I approve of that. I was responsible for that in the year 1921. I thought it was absolutely essential in order to cope with the problems of unemployment. But that is not the point upon which I am asking a question. I
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  come to paragraph (2). I do not quits understand what paragraph (2) is for, apart from Trade Facilities. The right hon. Gentleman hinted obscurely and mysteriously that it was to deal with some great schemes which might be advanced by public utility companies or by others. What has he got in his mind I think we ought to know.
  Mr. THOMAS: I am sorry I was so obscure, and I am sorry if there should be any misunderstanding. I understand the right hon. Gentleman's position to be that he wants, like me, to work this winter. The first question he puts is, "Does the £25,000,000 enable you on the same basis as Trade Facilities to lend money?" The answer to that is "Yes." He wants to know what paragraph (2) is—
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: As distinct from Trade Facilities.
  Mr. THOMAS: The value of it is because it is distinct from Trade Facilities, and that is why, in this talk about a miserable £25,000,000, the real value of the second point is lost. Let me explain what it is. I will take the railway companies. There is not a railway company that can accept paragraph (1). Why? For reasons that ought to be obvious to every Member of the House, and especially to the right hon. Gentleman. He knows perfectly well that railway companies have only certain borrowing powers on ordinary stock behind a limited number of debentures. They have all exercised those powers up to the limit, and when I met the railway companies there was not one that did not say, "A loan is no good to us; we cannot go on the market for a hundred and one reasons." But the other scheme is good to them, and they will accept it. Paragraph (2) will operate in this way. Suppose the development of a tube from Finsbury Park— I am giving cases I have in my mind—
  Mr. W. THORNE: Let us have one down East as well.
  Mr. THOMAS: When I say that, I mean for all parts of the country. They say, "We could not undertake this work with a loan, but"— for the reason I have given, which everyone understands—"if you will guarantee and pay the interest for two, three or four years, as the case

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  might be, after examination of the merits of each scheme, then we can undertake it." the meaning of paragraph (2) is that, if there are any undertakings that could not work under paragraph (1), then paragraph (2) is open to them. That is shortly the situation, and, incidentally, that is so in the case of most of the public utility companies.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Perhaps there will be a further opportunity of explaining what it means. I really do not see now the difference between Trade Facilities and paragraph (2), because the very instance given by the right hon. Gentleman was that of a tube which was financed under Trade Facilities to the extent, I think, of £12,000,000. I do not see why it could not be done under Trade Facilities, because under Trade Facilities you can either give a loan or a guarantee, or you can make any arrangement you like in order to enable the company to raise the money on Government credit. The thing that matters is the Government credit. I know exactly what the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind. He illustrated the case by the North Eastern, who could not borrow except at, I think, 7½ per cent. At the present moment other companes can borrow at a much lower rate of interest, but, for the companies that would have to go to the market and pay a high rate of interest, it is quite prohibitive, and for that particular reason it is essential that there should be a Government guarantee in order to reduce the rate of interest and make it possible for the scheme to pay. But that could have been done under Trade Facilities. I really do not know at the present moment what is the difference between the two, unless it is a subsidy— [Interruption.] That is very important.
  Mr. WARD LAW-MILNE: It is a subsidy by payment of interest.
  Mr. THOMAS Mr. THOMAS rose—
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Let me put my question. Hon. Members must be tolerant. I am putting questions which I am entitled to put. The question I want to put is this: Whether the interest is to be paid by the Government in the form of a subsidy, or whether you are going to add the interest afterwards to
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  the capital, is the Government to be repaid that amount as if it were a loan, or is it to be a subsidy and a free grant and gift to these particular companies which is never to be restored to the Treasury? That is what I want to know.
  Mr. THOMAS: Obviously, the right hon. Gentleman has not read the White Paper. If there is to be this cross-examination, I am entitled to ask that Members should read the White Paper. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer knew perfectly well what is meant, and said so. Of course it contains a form of subsidy. It says that. Let us be under no delusion about it. If you want speeding up, what is the difference between this and the very schemes that you yourselves put forward? The answer is quite clear. There seems to be cross-examination without understanding the situation. If a company comes along and says, "Here is a scheme that in the ordinary way we would not undertake for a period of five years," what is the difference between helping them to speed up and do it now, and asking a local authority to speed up and subsidising them in the same way? There is no difference whatever.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. Now I come to the question which I want to put to him. Are these schemes to be sanctioned in advance of a Parliamentary grant?
  Mr. THOMAS: Yes.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is not the White Paper. The right hon. Gentleman has complained that I have not read the White Paper, but I am proceeding on the White Paper. I am not going to be so discourteous to him as to say that he obviously has not read it, but I will just read to him the very last sentence:
  "In any ease no limit is proposed on the expenditure to be incurred under paragraphs 2 and 3 of the Resolution. The data on which any Estimate could be formed are not available, but in any case full Parliamentary control will be secured by the necessity for a Parliamentary Vote of the grants to be made."
  If that means anything, it means that before you sanction a particular grant — [Interruption.] If it does not mean that, I do not know what the White

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  Paper means, and that is exactly why I pressed the first point. If it was to be a gift, then the House of Commons ought to know the amount of the expenditure. The Government are going to commit themselves to this gift. Are we to find that by November the Government have committed themselves to gifts of public money to an unlimited extent— because no limit is proposed on the expenditure to be incurred? The House is warned in advance that there is no limit to the expenditure which is to be incurred, but the White Paper indicates the safeguard by saying that first of all you must have a Parliamentary Vote of the grants to be made. I can well understand the right hon. Gentleman saying that he does not propose that each particular grant should be submitted to the House of Commons in advance, but it does mean that an amount should be fixed by the House of Commons, that a limit should be fixed by the House of Commons. He has fixed his limit for the Colonies; he has fixed his limit for loans; but, when it comes to gifts of public money, there is no limit at all, and we are to give a free hand to the Treasury to spend as much as they like.
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  That is contrary to every precedent of Parliamentary control, and that is why I am putting these questions. I have said that it is absolutely necessary that, before the House votes this, we should know exactly where we are, and I do not in the least apologise for having put these questions. It is very vital that we should know exactly where we are. We have never heard, and I should like to know. Take, for instance, the scheme which was adumbrated by the Chancellor of the Duchy, which ran up to £75,000,000 or £100,000,000. I understand, from the change which has been made in the OFFICIAL REPORT, that it is not confined to Liverpool Street, but is confined to schemes in and around it, schemes of a broader character; but there are schemes of £75,000,000 to £100,000,000. Are we really to be told that the Government are to sanction these schemes and that, if we pass this Resolution, the Government could commit the House of Commons to these particular schemes without voting in advance the amount to which they are entitled to do so? I think we ought to
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  be told something about it. Never in the whole history of Parliament has anything of this kind ever been submitted to the House of Commons. In every case there has been a maximum limit imposed. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman may sneer. I should like him to quote a single precedent where a Government has committed the House of Commons to an expenditure with no limit proposed, because that is what it is.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I notice that the only representative of the Treasury is now leaving the Committee.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This is very extraordinary, I must say, and very disrespectful to the House of Commons. I see the bon. Gentleman is taking counsel. I withdraw any imputation, but I think we ought to get an answer either from the right hon. Gentleman or from the representatives of the Treasury as to when we are going to have this Vote. Are we going to have it, with the amount, before the House separates? If the right hon. Gentleman says he will not sanction any grant until there is a Vote, then unless he has. the Vote before next Friday week he can sanction no scheme until November, and the winter is upon him, and that was the paramount consideration in his mind, that you must have schemes for the coming winter. I should like to have a direct answer to that question.
  Mr. THOMAS: I will give the answer. This is not a question of merely consulting the Treasury. The Treasury know nothing about it. Let the Committee observe the question, and the way it is put. The Committee, said the right hon. Gentleman, is asked to sanction something unprecedented and with no limit. He knows the Committee is asked to sanction something of which he claimed a few minutes ago that he was the father.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No.
  Mr. THOMAS: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the procedure I am asking for in this Resolution is precisely what they have been doing in Lord St. Davids Committee all through, and asking the House afterwards to sanction it. The only difference is that I am including railway companies now, because other private profit

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  making concerns were included before. The only other difference is that I am not leaving it exclusively to Lord St. Davids Committee but am setting up a special Committee. That is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman. The precedent is his precedent for the Lord St. Davids Committee, and Parliament afterwards gave the authority.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Then what I understand is this. The right hon. Gentleman says Lord St. Davids Committee can make advances to local authorities for public purposes. He proposes to do so without having any previous sanction from Parliament. I have no time to examine that. I accept it from him for the moment. Therefore, he proposes to extend to public companies, like railway companies, the same system of grants by the committee that he sets up without any limit upon the amount being imposed by Parliament at all. If that be the proposition I shall certainly, when the time comes, oppose it if it means that the House of Commons does not know exactly the limit to which it is committing itself.
  Mr. THOMAS: You yourself called it a modest scheme.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not know that I ever attributed modesty to the right hon. Gentleman. It must have been someone else, I think, who made that error. Therefore, we know exactly what the right hon. Gentleman's proposition is, and when this is embodied in a Bill, the House of Commons will have to deal very sternly with it. We really ought to know. The right hon. Gentleman has fixed a limit of £25,000,000 for borrowing under Trade Facilities. He proposes that there shall be no limit of expenditure when you come to grants of money to public companies. That is contrary to all precedent, and I cannot see the House of Commons sanctioning it. The third point I want to put is this. The right hon. Gentleman has not said anything on the question of grants for the setting up of private enterprises. I do not know whether he is in a position to make a further statement.
  Mr. THOMAS: It is not in the Resolution, and that is why I cannot say anything about it.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Although roads are not in the Resolution, the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to enlighten the Committee, but he is not prepared to enlighten the Committee upon this matter. I hope there will be an opportunity before we separate to get further elucidation upon the schemes of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the subsidising of private enterprise. Those are the two or three questions I wanted to put in order to elucidate the position and to see exactly where we are. I should also like to ask whether the Resolutions will be embodied in an Act of Parliament. I assume that to be the ease, and that the Trades Facilities Act will be re-enacted and paragraph 2 put into some sort of statutory form.
  Mr. THOMAS: I will answer that question right away. This is a financial Resolution which is to be followed by a Bill, and there will be a Second Reading, Committee, and Report stages.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Therefore, there will be a fuller opportunity then. This being the first opportunity we have had of examining these propositions, it is well that the House of Commons and the country should know exactly what they are, because I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not alone in having some doubt with regard to the extent and the character of the propositions to which he is commiting us. On the face of it, they appear to be quite inadequate. As he says, when you come to paragraph 2 they are absolutely unlimited. They may be of a character so gigantic that it might even stagger the House of Commons. I hope the time may come when this secret which is locked in the right hon. Gentleman's bosom will be divulged to the majority of Members of the House of Commons.
  Mr. SMITHERS: The White Paper says the purpose of the Resolution is to authorise the Treasury to raise money for the reduction of unemployment. I want to ask whether the mere raising of money will reduce unemployment. Since the Lord Privy Seal opened the Debate, we have had a good deal of light thrown upon the scheme, and we now see further light. I asked a question a day or two ago as to two methods of raising money, one by guarantee, and one by the raising of new capital. The Chancellor of the

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  Exchequer answered that the amount proposed to be raised by way of guarantee was £25,000,000, as we have heard today, and as contained in No. I of the Financial Resolutions. But the right hon. Gentleman went on to say he could not give any useful estimate as to the amount of new capital that would be required. To-day we have heard, as far as I can gather, that the amount required may be unlimited. The point I want very much to draw attention to is this. Will the mere raising of money on Government guarantee help the unemployed problem? You may raise money on Government guarantee, and create such a situation that the mere raising of the money will do so much harm that it will create more unemployment than the actual money raised would have cured.
  May I say something about the importance of credit to the country, because it is vitally mixed up with this question of raising "large sums of new capital. We are different from every other country in the world, and we are more dependent upon credit than any other country in the world. Last year there came to this country an income of £510,000,000 entirely received from our credit services—our income from overseas loans, and our shipping services. That is the way we make up for excess of imports over exports. If anything is done, by borrowing beyond the saturation point of the money market, to harm the credit of the country, we then come to a position where the foreign credit of the country is affected, and because we are so dependent upon our foreign exchanges that if they depreciate, especially as regards the pound sterling and the dollar, if, for example, the pound sterling depreciates 6 percent, in terms of dollars, automatically the cost of living must go up by about an equal amount.
  May I put it in this way, that if you built a wall round France, practically a self-supporting country, and nothing came in or went out, the French people would live fairly well. They might have to go without their coffee and one or two things they import, but there would be plenty to eat and drink and to carry on. If you built a wall round England, and nothing came in or went out, we should starve in a comparatively short space of time. Therefore, it is of the
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  utmost importance that our national credit should be maintained. If proposals are made on a large scale for the raising of large capital sums, we will suppose for the moment £25,000,000, £50,000,000, or £100,000,000— we do not know yet how much will be required— it will, for the sake of raising that amount, depress the interest rate of the whole of our £7,000,000,000 of debt, and it will cost the taxpayer more to carry that debt. To carry the thing ad absurdum, you could cure unemployment by declaring war on a first-class Power, conscripting the whole community, and giving them employment in the war. To raise large sums of money without considering how it affects the credit of the country may have a somewhat similar effect.
  A very curious position has arisen in the world to-day. Hitherto the great creditor countries have been lenders for the development of the rest of she world, France and Holland to a smaller degree and Great Britain to a larger degree. But to-day we have the curious position of the great creditor nation, the United States of America, not lending to the rest of the world but actually taking money into America. The whole of Europe owes money to America for the War debt. Here we have a position where the United States is taking money from Europe and setting up a great tariff wall to make it more difficult for us to pay. The mere raising of large capital sums for unemployment may defeat its own object, and by depressing the credit of this country may create such a state of affairs in regard to our credit with other countries that international chaos may result. By depressing our credit it would create a situation with which neither this Government nor any other Government would he able to cope.
  I am not saying this in any antagonistic spirit, but really and truly because I want to point out the difficulties, and, as far as possible, help in this great unemployment problem. I beg of the Lord Privy Seal, or of the Chancellor of the Duchy who is assisting him in this matter, as soon as possible, to get some Treasury Minute as to- the amount of new capital that will be required to carry out these schemes. There is no doubt that at the present moment there is a strong tendency

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  for money to go to America. I do not want to press the point too hard, but I am personally convinced that the trend of money to America is accentuated because there is a Socialist Government in power in this country. If we could know as soon as possible to what extent new capital would be required, we should be able to allay the fears of the people who are sending capital out of this country. They would at least know to what extent the credit of this country is going to be mortgaged in the future. I repeat and emphasise that for the stability of the business community as a whole it is of the utmost importance to the country, and to the unemployed themselves, that we should know as soon as possible the extent of the financial commitments to which the Government are involved.
  Major NATHAN: In the first place I crave the indulgence that this House always accords to a new Member speaking for the first time. We are asked to-day to sign, in effect, a cheque for £25,000,000 in favour of the Lord Privy Seal, and we have learned during the last few minutes, to the surprise, I imagine, of most members of this Committee, that we are also being asked to give leave and licence to the Government to put their hand into the public pocket to an extent quite unnamed and unlimited. What is the money for? We are entitled to know a little more than is disclosed in the White Paper, and a little more than the Lord Privy Seal disclosed this afternoon. There were vague references to schemes for transport, for gas, for electricity, for water, for power and all the rest of it, but there was nothing to indicate the sort of picture, or even the outlines of the picture, that the Lord Privy Seal has in his mind as the result of these various schemes when brought into operation. However well vague generalisations— they are, perhaps, inevitable and natural— may do on the public platform, we are, on the Floor of this House, entitled to a rather more exact exposition. Surely, we are entitled to ask how sums for which the Government ask are to be applied. We might expect to be told what are the Lord Privy Seal's calculations as to the number of unemployed for whom employment will be found as a result of the Trade Facility Loans and the other grants referred to
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  in the White Paper. There has been a complete absence of information as to what the Government expect to be the effect of their schemes in terms of employment.
  I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy on what basis the employment found by means of these funds will be distributed throughout the country? I should welcome— I think the Committee would welcome— from the Lord Privy Seal or the Chancellor of the Duchy some assurance that where a development operation is initiated in a locality the first preference as to employment within that locality will be given to the available unemployed there. Let me jive an actual example of what I hope may be the procedure. I hope, for instance, that in connection with the Liverpool Street electrification scheme, if it be undertaken, the unemployed of East London will be first absorbed before occupation is found for those outside East London. I feel that the Committee will— I know that the unemployed will— attach importance to the answer which the right hon. Gentleman feels himself able to give upon that point. It is so easy to solve the unemployment problem in one locality just by increasing it in another locality. We have the experience of the comparative failure of the Industrial Transference Board which demonstrated the difficulties and dangers which are inherent in any scheme of migration on a relatively large scale.
  I suggest that before giving what is tantamount to a power of attorney to the Lord Privy Seal we are entitled to ask in what direction it would be exercised and by whom it would be exercised? First, as to by whom it would be exercised, I must confess to having read with some concern and to having heard with some concern that there are to be created these committees which are to be under the authority of a Government Department. As I understand the scheme indicated my the White Paper, it involves the abandonment by the Government of central initiative and central control. I believe that their retention, in a very large degree, of central initiative and central control is essential to the solution of this problem. In the ultimate analysis, the solution of the unemployment problem is a one man job. The solution really depends upon the driving force which

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  the man at the top is able to bring to bear at the point of executive decision and executive action, and I am very much afraid that the interposition of these committees may weaken the dynamic energy which is necessary to get these schemes started, and, what is equally difficult, to keep them going when they have been started.
  I should have hoped that within so short a time prior to the Recess and within a very few weeks of the autumn and the winter, we might have had laid before us rather more precise plans by the Government. Day after day the right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite tell us that they are thinking about this problem and thinking about that problem. Let me remind the Committee that we on these benches did our thinking years ago, and that the result of our deliberations as to be found in the now famous pamphlet which defined the issue of the General Election and set the task to this Parliament on which it is now engaged. We claim no copyright in the suggestions which we have formulated, but there is one idea, the central idea, in those proposals to which I would most earnestly direct the attention of the Lord Privy Seal and the Chancellor of the Duchy, and that is the idea of speed. Speed is the essential factor of the whole scheme we formulated, and speed is the essential factor now if the Government are not to be shipwrecked. We did not merely sketch a programme of national development; we insisted that it must fee capable of immediate application. We were so certain that it could be speedily carried out that my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) gave (his (historic pledge to reduce unemployment to the normal within 12 months.
  The Tight hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal made an appeal to the Committee this afternoon. He asked us, in view of his difficulties, to be patient and to give him time. This is not the moment for patience; it is not the moment for temporising. With regard to all the schemes which are outlined, however vaguely, in the White Paper, there is one supreme danger, and that is that the fatal words "Too late!" may be written over every one of them. The Government must find the recent unemployment
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  figures disquieting. They cannot expect any further seasonal decreases. The figures are already slightly rising, and it is essential that they should be stayed now, because it looks rather as if we were at the end of the period of industrial peace that was dictated by exhaustion. Trouble is threatened in half a dozen industries. The news from the cotton industry is very grave. Let there be a sudden cessation of work in a basic industry, and up the figures will leap. The Government must stem there now, before they escape from their control. Any delay now in the conquest of unemployment will make the task infinitely more difficult in six months' time. Unless the plans are ready within the next few weeks it will be impossible to mitigate the hardship of yet another winter of acute industrial distress. It will be the tenth winter of excessive unemployment, and it will be the worst winter of all. It will be the worst winter, because this Government will then be dealing, not like the last Government, with a million men, and more, dulled into insensibility by despair, but with men awakened and stimulated by hope. It will be a serious and even a dangerous situation if those hopes are to be disappointed.
  Can the Lord Privy Seal or the Chancellor of the Duchy give us any indication whether the plans of the Government have yet sufficiently matured to make any appreciable impression upon those who will be shivering outside the Employment Exchanges in a very few months? I know that there are difficulties and dangers to be dealt with. I know that there are interests to be conciliated, that there are landlords to be bought out, that there are ancient and half-forgotten Statutes to be repealed or amended, but those are difficulties which, in their general character and quality, are inseparable from any great undertaking. The anxieties of the situation show the urgency of the position. It is really an emergency situation with which we are faced, but the Government have failed to ask for emergency powers to deal with it.
  On the declaration of War this House in one hour voted more money for the purposes of war than it had voted in weeks and weeks of Budget Debate which had preceded it. Where it was a question of shells my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs

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  saw to it that he obtained powers to enable him to cut a road direct from the shell factories to the guns. I am sure that the House would give the Government similar powers if they showed appreciation of the urgent and compelling circumstances of the situation. More than 1,000,000 men are cut off from the pride and joy of productive employment; they are having to endure every circumstance of humiliation and privation. Let the Lord Privy Seal ask for the fullest powers to organise an immediate rescue party. The right hon. Gentleman spoke to-day of his difficulties and the delays that were inevitable. When a man is drowning, you cannot enter into elaborate contracts for the provision of a suitable rope for rescuing him; you have to take the first thing that comes to your hand. More than 1,000,000 men are drowning, and they look to this House to throw them a lifeline, and to throw it immediately. There can be no doubt about the Liberal position in relation to this problem. We are with the Government in every well-devised attempt to grapple with this grim problem. All we ask is that they will tell us what they are going to do— at the present time we know nothing— that they will press it forward with vigour, determination, foresight and courage, and, above all, that they will do it quickly:
  "If it were done, when 'tis done, then' twere well
  It were done quickly."
  Mr. MARCUS: As a new Member, I do not hesitate to pay ungrudging tribute to the Lord Privy Seal for the remarkably strenuous efforts he is making to deal with the problem of unemployment. I do so, despite the fact that I represent an industrial constituency, the City of Dundee, where the people are exposed to the hardships of unemployment in very large numbers, and where, above all, they look to this Government for a rapid solution of the problem. I am not unmindful of the fact that the explanations made by the right. hon. Gentleman to-day are of a nature which cannot be overlooked by any intelligent person sitting in this House, or outside. This Government have a legacy bequeathed to them from past Conservative and Liberal Administrations, which is fenced around with what one might call a legal structure
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  which serves to hinder every step in a progressive direction which we wish to take. I am, however, fully confident that the spirit which animates the right hon. Gentleman is one which will lead to a rapid improvement in the conditions prevailing so far as unemployment is concerned. I leave the issue of unemployment confidently in the hands of the Government Front Bench.
  I am not surprised in the least at the attitude adopted by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, but what has surprised me very profoundly in this House is the general attitude taken by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who tell us that they are surprised at the slow pace which has been set by the present Government. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer told us this afternoon that he was very sorry for the Lord Privy Seal because of the gnawing worries that must beset him if he considers the statements that he has made in the past. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer used to represent the City of Dundee, and I recall a remarkable speech delivered by him which must be the origin of the gnawing worries to which he has made reference. Away back in 1908, he spoke of the Conservative party in very frank terms. At that time he was a Liberal and was free to say what he thought of Toryism and Conservatism. This is what he said; I have memorised it because I have used it often in my election campaign:
  "What is Toryism? Toryism is sentiment by the bucketful, patriotism and Imperialism by the imperial pint, an open-hand at the Exchequer and an open door at the public house; aggression abroad and corruption at home to cover it up."
  or something to that effect. Only a few months ago, when the election campaign was at its height, the same right hon. Gentleman being then in the position of a Conservative and free to say what he thought of his Liberal friends characterised them as thimble riggers, cheap jacks and card sharpers. Now, the two parties opposite propose to solve the unemployment problem. All I can say, as a new Member, is that I am not to be deceived by efforts of that kind. If the former Chancellor of the Exchequer is so anxious, as he asks us to believe, to solve the unemployment problem, one would like to know why no substantial effort was made during the past 4½ years, when he had the power to carry out any schemes which he had in mind.

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  We are deeply conscious of the difficulties surrounding this problem. We know that the comparatively small sum mentioned in the Financial Resolution is only a beginning, that it is only the basis upon which the Lord Privy Seal proposes to build, and we know that he will continue to build so long as he has the support of progressive Members in this House. The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken appealed for speed. He wants a speedy solution of the unemployment problem. I would remind him that his party have been in power for more years than I care to mention, and they failed to deal adequately with the great problem of unemployment. We on these benches look forward with confidence to the schemes of reconstruction which will be introduced in this House, despite the threats from the other side; schemes which will have the support of hon. Members sitting on this side.
  I am delighted that the great task of solving the- unemployment problem has been placed in the hands of the Lord Privy Seal. We know his capacity, and I want to assure him that as new Members we are thoroughly behind him in every task he undertakes. On this side of the House we are going to show solidarity. Any expression on the part of a new Member suggesting criticism of the Government is offered in a very frendly spirit; it is offered only because new Members are deeply conscious of the hardships to which their constituents are exposed. We shall go on confidently, and we are satisfied that before very long, certainly before this Parliament has finished, a very substantial impression will have been made upon the great problem of unemployment; but it will only be made by the application of Socialist methods, in which we of this party believe, and which we believe form the basis of the ultimate solution of all economic and social problems.
  Sir HILTON YOUNG: The Committee will, no doubt, desire that its congratulations should be conveyed to the deliverers of the two very distinguished contributions to our Debate which have just been made from the Liberal and Labour Benches. The speech which was made by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Marcus) must have been particularly grateful to the right hon. Member the Lord Privy Seal, unused as he has been
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  of late to hearing accents of such sweetness proceeding from below the Gangway on his side of -the House. Let me dwell very briefly upon one or two of the most vital issues of the financial procedure which have already arisen in this Debate. It is essential that the information which the Committee desires to be conveyed to it before this Debate terminates, should be clearly defined. There is, first of all, the question of the anticipation of the revenues of the Road Fund. The right hon. Gentleman has told us this afternoon that it is his intention to anticipate those revenues, if it is necessary for him to do so in order to cope with his work. Is it or is it not the contention of the Government that such an anticipation is covered by any phraseology of this Resolution? To the plain man it would seem that it is not, and that it would be a most improper extension of the phraseology of this Resolution to derive from it any authority to deal in such a way with the finances of the Road Fund.
  Mr. THOMAS: I said that. I made it perfectly clear that it could not have any bearing, and was never intended so. I said so.
  Sir H. YOUNG: It is gratifying to know that this is agreed beyond the possibility of controversy. If that is so I imagine it will follow that an express Resolution will have to be introduced and passed before the rising of the House in order to authorise such proceedings as those to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. No doubt some time will be required in order to answer that question. Secondly, as to the even wider issue of the financial procedure under Part II of the Resolution itself— that which authorises the grant of public money to private undertakings— it appears to me, if I may express a personal opinon, that what is required in order to regularise matters and relieve those apprehensions so legitimately expressed by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is this. First of all, that a definite limitation upon the sums which the Government shall be authorised to expend shall be inserted in the Bill when it comes to be drafted. It is impossible to say without a prolonged investigation that it is without precedent that the Government should be given a free hand in the disbursement of public money to

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  private concerns, but if there be any precedent for it I should say that it is a very bad precedent and ought not to be observed, and that under any such circumstances there should be a limitation. The question, an answer to which would relieve anxiety and clear the situation, is this. As I understand it, before any more is expended for this purpose it will have to be voted by Parliament. The unemployment grants for Lord St. Davids Committee are voted by Parliament under Class 5 of the Civil Estimates for health, labour and insurance.
  Mr. THOMAS: After they are spent.
  Sir H. YOUNG: Is the right hon. Gentleman laying it down as a general principle that the Government claims authority to spend public money in advance of its being voted by Parliament I It is certainly a principle which we should resist on these benches and I hope it is a proposition which hon. Members opposite will resist. I hope it is not a principle which will be laid down by any responsible Government. The task of the Government is to obtain the authority of Parliament for its expenditure before it is undertaken, and when it fails to do so it is guilty of a dereliction of its strict duty. We are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman for an assurance that there will be no general expenditure of this sort without obtaining the proper authority, if necessary by a Supplementary Estimate. These surely are the requirements of financial regularity.
  Let me proceed to the general principle of the legislation which is before us this afternoon. I suggest that the Government to-day is not playing so distinguished a part as it did a few days ago when it came to obtain the authority of Parliament for expenditure on Colonial development. It then appeared in the new clothes of the late Conservative administration and it looked better than it does to-day in these cast off garments. The trade facilities scheme has been abandoned. Quasi, I have a parental affection for that proposal, and I confess that it was not without a natural tear that I saw it die in the last Parliament. At the time I thought it was a natural death, and I have some doubts as to whether its resuscitation is not somewhat unnatural. If I may outline a point of view about the matter it is this. On the
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  whole it may be just worth while to resuscitate trade facilities in the manner proposed by the Government as long as its work is very carefully watched indeed, but I have a doubt and a fear that even with the most careful watching it might not turn out to waste more time and money than it does good. For these reasons; The scheme hat, been revived now with one fresh limitation and one fresh extension. The limitation is this. When trade facilities was first introduced a guarantee could be given to any undertaking as long as it was calculated to promote employment. In its revived form it is subject to the limitation that the undertaking must be one with statutory powers. I can readily understand why that limitation is introduced, and I do not think it is unfair to say that it is to give the scheme a colour which will be more acceptable to the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman. I sympathise and understand the right hon. Gentleman's desire to paint it in a manner which will make it more acceptable to them, but from the point of view of the practical utility of the scheme it is bad. As a matter of fact, it will be found that amongst the schemes which were formerly advanced and promoted under trade facilities, those which were the most characteristically beneficial in the way of providing employment were purely private undertakings and would not home under the classification of statutory companies at all. I regret the necessity that a party attitude has compelled the right hon. Gentleman to impose the restriction.
  Mr. THOMAS: There was no such consultation or any such the thought. It was deliberately done after consultation with a number of representative business men who said that to throw open trade facilities to-day and encourage private industries which ought to rationalise themselves would be madness. I took their advice.
  Sir H. YOUNG: I accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation of his motives and reasons. Let me now refer to the extension of the scheme. It is an enormous extension. It is the grant of public money free of interest to private concerns at home. For reasons which I will give later, it appears to me that this extension is far too wide and must at home lead to a waste of funds. It certainly requires most careful Justification,

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  and I doubt whether that justification can be given. I can best point out the cause' of any hesitation as to whether the scheme is going to do much good by indicating the principal differences between conditions now and conditions when trade facilities was first introduced. When the trade facilities scheme was first introduced it was forged as a weapon and placed in the hands of the Government for a single specific purpose, to deal with a single difficulty. It was that in the period of troubled minds and disturbed business after the War there was a general lack of confidence in the country, and here and there, and everywhere, perfectly good undertakings, which might at once be rendered profitable and of economic advantage to the country, were not undertaken just for lack of confidence. The idea was that the Government by coming in and giving a final blessing as it were of a Government guarantee for the capital of the undertaking could cure that lack of confidence and get the work going. Useful and good work was done by the trade facility in those circumstances. But time has gone on and the country has settled down. There is no longer lack of confidence; there is ample confidence at home for the commencement of fresh undertakings. I am not going to score the debating point and say that there has been a temporary lack of confidence owing to political changes; I will not do that, but I hope nothing will be done by the present Government to continue any little disturbances there may be at the present time. There is ample confidence; and so this remedy for lack of confidence does not appear to be so immediately necessary.
  7.0 p.m.
  When we were discussing the Colonial scheme, I think we carried the right hon. Gentleman with us in some measure in this little modern analysis of the situation. We said that what we want is not to promote works that are perfectly good and can be made to pay on a commercial basis because they will keep going by their own management. What we want is not to promote works which can never be put on an economic basis at all, because that would be a waste of money. What we want to-day is to advance businesses which will be on an economic basis some day but which are
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  not quite ready yet. The region of doubt as to this scheme is whether there is a large number of undertakings at home of this last class, those which will undoubtedly be a good economic proposition some day but which are not ready or right at the moment and which can be advanced by a Government guarantee. It is difficult to see what they are. As a matter of fact, enterprise, initiative, foresight and constant striving after the betterment of the country on the one hand, and the constant search for that great incentive to enterprise, profit, has the advantage of bringing every undertaking in this country into being as soon as it is ready. If that is so what is good for economics is not good for the country; and for a very obvious reason. In economics there is that class of undertaking awaiting rightness which, as a general rule, only the Government can promote and bring into being. Only the Government have the knowledge and the necessary assets on the spot, for historical reasons, and only the Government has the necessary credit. It may turn out that there is this difference between the Colonial Empire and the economic situation at home, which whilst fulfilling the hopes of the right hon. Gentleman in the Colonial Empire will disappoint them at home. We ought to remind ourselves that it is not simply a question of the disappointment of hopes, but that without the most careful watching a large sum of money might be wasted over this scheme. If there is the least tendency or desire to get money spent without regard to the essential principles of trade facilities, you may pour out money into every channel and it will run away in expenditure which will do absolutely no good for employment or the development of the country. When we are erecting this scheme, we are setting our- selves a most responsible task of making sure that the public money, which we are put here to control, is not, owing to any slight shift in responsibility of administration, now to be devoted to any extent at all to public bodies, public utility companies, or any other source, which as a matter of fact could get the work done perfectly well without a public grant.
  Mr. THOMAS: I agree with that entirely.
  Sir H. YOUNG: With any public body even of the highest ideals, there is a temptation to get a grant which might result in money being spent under those wasteful conditions. That being so, owing to the difference between the conditions here and the conditions in the Colonies, I do not see how one can be more enthusiastic about the present proposal of the Government than to say that it may be useful to have the possibility there, and to examine any appropriate schemes that come along, remembering the risk there is of the money being wasted.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Before I comment on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, I would like to join in congratulating the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Marcus) on his maiden speech, and I hope that we shall have more contributions from him. His city has sent many splendid Members to this House, and I hope that he will be numbered among them. I would also like to pay a tribute to the speech made from the Liberal benches by one of the two Liberal Members for London. His great objection was that the Lord Privy Seal was not moving fast enough, that he was going through the ordinary processes of the law and the constitution, whereas the right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat used his great ability to object to my right hon. friend doing anything at all. He was searching for petty criticisms and irritating little objections, unworthy of this House when the country is faced with a great crisis, and unworthy of the undoubted talents of the right hon. Gentleman. I only mention this to draw the attention of the Committee to his own lack of appreciation of the problem. He objected, because my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal is wishful to confine this first, this preliminary, this stop-gap effort to the assistance of statutory undertakings. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that under the old Trade Facilities Scheme, which I heard debated for years in this House, the stern economists, among whom he, like the right hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) sometimes numbers himself, objected to private enterprise being helped, because, they said, it was unfair to assist one shipbuilding company to provide ships seeing that it entered into competition with another company, or
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  that it was unfair to assist some private electricity company because it competed with another. That was the objection of the stern economists when private enterprise was to be helped and, now that statutory undertakings are to be assisted by my right hon. Friend, along comes this master of obstruction and petty criticism and pin pricks and annoys my right hon. Friend. Hon. Members on this side of the House who have come recently to this House will realise from the speech we have just heard the difficulties, the annoyances, and the irritations which my Tight hon. Friend has to receive in this House and still more so from the very provocative, mischievous, amusing but unhelpful speech of the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill).
  I want to put one or two requests to the Lord Privy Seal. He spoke of the members of these committees, and I am sure he did not mean to confine them only to what are known generally as business men. These committees have a very important function to carry out, and I presume he will endeavour to enlist the assistance, for example, of some of the heads of the great co-operative movement, and of some experienced trade union leaders. The time has passed when we must look only to one strata of society for the manning of these committees. The other question I would like to ask him is this: What call will he have upon these committees? I have had some little experience of committees of this kind, composed of volunteers, of great magnates in the city. The come as they like, and they go as they like. They are not paid, though sometimes they draw expenses. They are often very big guns in their own lines of business, a id you have to suit their convenience. Committees of this kind are often not good working committees. Is it understood that these committees will face and tackle these problems in the same spirit as did some of the committees during the War I am thinking, for example, of the Explosives Committee of which I saw something during the War. They worked wonderfully well, and without any thought of their own time and interest. If we can recapture that spirit in these gentlemen who are to help with this problem, possibly great results will follow. Is my right hon. Friend going to be provided eventually with an adequate staff?

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  I do not mean a staff in the Whitehall sense of the word, but more in the naval and military rendering of the word. I do not mean messengers and typists and telephonists. Will he have people who will take some of this terrific burden off his shoulders. Will he have that machinery? I would like a great organisation like that which was built during the War for the manufacture and supply of munitions to be set up now for the curing of unemployment. I believe that a separate staff in the sense -which I have described will soon be required by my right hon. Friend, and I am sure this House will not allow party feeling to obstruct anything he needs for solving this great problem which he has undertaken, and in which I am sure anyone with the well-being of his country at heart will wish him well.
  Sir HUGH O'NEILL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down began his speech in a rather bellicose spirit. If there is any truth in the rumours which we see to the effect that before long he may be called upon to occupy a position of some responsibility in the foreign councils of the nation, I hope that his well-known pugilistic attainments will in that sphere be mitigated and curbed.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does that mean that I am invited to be Governor-General of Northern Ireland?
  Sir H. O'NEILL: The two principal speeches which were made upon this particular Resolution from the two front Benches of the Opposition were couched in rather different spirit and terms. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer took the view that the proposals were so mild and moderate and so much in line with the policy of the last Government that he rather assumed that they could do no harm even if they could not do very much good. On the other hand, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) pointed out the fact, which has been subsequently touched upon, that in one respect these proposals do contain apparently a very great departure from former financial precedents, and I should like to refer for a few moments to that aspect of the question. It comes under the proposal to give grants in lieu of interest to public utility concerns who desire to undertake
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  new measures which may possibly aid unemployment. The right hon.
  Gentleman asked about the financial control of this House over that expenditure. I would like to ask a further question of the Treasury, if they were here.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir LAMBERT WARD: On a point of Order. The hon. Member is raising a point of the most vital financial interest. Are we not entitled to have a responsible Minister present?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Further to that point of Order. It might avoid trouble if you would give a Ruling in the matter, because we ought to have a representative of the Treasury present, and we do not want to have to move to report Progress and to ask leave to sit again.
  Mr. J. JONES: I would like to ask you to remember that very often in the last Parliament important financial matters were under discussion and the Front Bench was entirely empty.
  HON. MEMBERS: Never!
  The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunnico): It is not my function to dictate to the Government who shall, or who shall not, sit upon the Treasury Bench, but I think it might be convenient to the Committee if the Department were represented.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: May we ask if the representative of the Government— I am not quite certain at the moment what his new office is— would take steps to acquaint the officers of the Treasury that the Debate has taken a financial turn, and that their presence is needed to assist the Committee in this financial discussion.
  Mr. WILLIAM WHITELEY (Lord of the Treasury): The Committee may rest assured that a message has gone and that the representative of the Treasury will be summoned.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The hon. Member who is on the Front Bench, is duly a Lord of the Treasury and does represent the Treasury.
  Sir H. O'NEILL: I would, in the absence of a representative of the Treasury, like to deal with this point. The White Paper says:
  "It will be observed from paragraphs (1) and (2) of the Financial Resolution that

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  assistance in the latter class of cases may be afforded in either of two ways:

  (a) by a guarantee of the interest or principal, or both, of any loan raised for the purposes of the scheme; and

  (b) by means of grants, over a term not exceeding 15 years, of the whole or part of the interest on any loan actually raised for the purposes of the scheme "—

  I would like to direct attention to this particular point:
  "or, where the expenditure is met out of revenue or accumulated funds, of the assumed interest on the loan that would otherwise have been necessary, calculated at a rate approved by the Treasury."
  So that not only are they asking to take powers to give grants, subsidies, of interest on loans which may be raised, but the Government are asking for powers to pay subsidies of the assumed interest on a loan that would have to be raised if the particular concern had not got the money. But it has got the money, because it is only to apply to the large undertakings which have got accumulated reserves. Let me give a practical example of what would happen under this very wide condition. Suppose that you have a railway company which has large accumulated reserves invested outside the business. It has the liquid capital and it does not require to raise any loan to carry out its schemes. Under this Resolution the Government can give that railway company sums of money representing the interest that it would have had to pay if it had been necessary for the company to raise a loan. That, in addition generally to the policy of granting definite payments to enable those concerns to pay interest on loans, is going a very long way towards a definite subsidy. In fact I do not see that it is anything but a subsidy. Indeed the right hon. Gentleman—
  The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Sir Oswald Mosley): I am very sorry and I apologise to the Committee for my right hon. Friend and myself. He was called into a conference just after I had left for another conference, and we understood that the Minister was on the Treasury Bench.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
  The hon. Baronet entirely misunderstands the position which has developed in the Committee. We are not complaining
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  of the absence of the Minister. We had present a very admirable and engaging representative of His Majesty's Government. We were complaining of the absence of an authoritative exponent of the Treasury. There is not even present the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, although it is his name that is attached to this Resolution. Very grave issues have been raised by the Liberal party on this question of the unlimited powers under paragraph (2), and the inability of the Government to assign any definite figure. We must have an authoritative expression from representatives of the Treasury who have the care of our national finances. There is a general feeling in the Committee that that should be so. In order to express that general feeling I move the Motion. I do so also for the purpose of securing adequate financial advice to the Committee when very large issues relating to public funds are being decided.
  It is quite impossible for us to neglect these matters. We are perfectly ready to give the Government the moneys that they require, for any reasonable scheme that will assist in improving employment in the country, but we are not going to provide them with blank cheques. We are not going to allow them, because they are afraid to state the true figures that they have in mind, for fear that they would cause alarm in the City or disgust below the gangway, to remain in a position of vague and convenient nebulosity. WE have a right to the presence of the responsible financial advisers of the Government. It is no good the hon. Baronet coming forward. He knows nothing about the Treasury. He is only a sort of ginger assistant to the Lord Privy Seal, and more ginger than assistant, I have no doubt. In order that the Committee might receive proper assistance from the responsible officers charged with the duties of defending the public finances, I move the Motion.
  Sir O. MOSLEY: I really do not apprehend the trouble with which the right hon. Gentleman concerns himself. The representative of the Treasury was present and heard the point that was put by the right bon. Member the Leader of the Liberal party. The reply of the Treasury representative will certainly be made during the course of the Debate if the right hon. Gentleman desires it

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  and if he considers that the few observations that I address to the Committee on the subject altogether inadequate. In that event a representative of the Treasury will foe most happy to reply from the Treasury point of view. He was present throughout. He was present during most of the speech of the Leader of the Liberal party.
  Mr. E. BROWN: No.
  Sir O. MOSLEY: If he was not present during the whole of the speech, then the points which the right hon. Gentleman made will most certainly be conveyed to him.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: May we not have the right of direct access to a Member?
  Sir O. MOSLEY: To what, then, is the complaint of the right hon. Gentleman directed? Is he complaining that a representative of the Treasury was not present during the speech of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: What I am complaining of is that for the last two hours very serious financial issues have been raised, and we have asked that a representative of the Treasury should be present. Even the secondary representative who was previously present has now withdrawn himself.
  Mr. THOMAS: first let me say that the right hon. Gentleman himself only arrived the moment I left the House. I know him sufficiently well to assume that he would not be so unfair as not to realise that he himself was not present. I was here and heard all the speeches and replied to his right hon. colleague on many questions.
  Sir H. YOUNG: A very remarkable reply.
  Mr. THOMAS: I am not dealing with the merits of my reply. I am merely indicating that I was present and replied. The right hon. Gentleman was not present. I left for a conference on another matter. I was suddenly told that Progress was to be reported— I will deal with that right away— on the ground that a representative of the Treasury was not present to answer these financial questions raised by the Leader of the Liberal party and others. My right hon.
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  Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was present during the whole of my speech. He heard the extent to which I committed the Treasury. Not only did he agree, but he had agreed before I made my speech, for he knew what our policy was. In answer to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs I made a statement that all this talk about unprecedented action that was unknown in Parliamentary history was beside the mark. I gave him the answer which I now repeat. It is alleged—
  Sir H. O'NEILL: On a point of Order. I was in possession of the Committee when this Motion was moved. I wish to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is in order in going into the merits of this question? Should he not confine himself merely to saying why Treasury representatives are not here?
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The Lord Privy Seal is quite in order.
  Mr. THOMAS: Surely, I am in order in giving reasons why the Motion should not be accepted. The basis of the Motion is that there is some confusion or difficulty or unwillingness on the part of the Treasury to deal with certain financial questions that have been raised. I am meeting it by answering authoritatively for the Treasury, and making it perfectly clear that I am answering for the Government when I say further, in answer to the leader of the Liberal party— who has now discovered what un-limited powers are embraced in this scheme— that the precedent is precisely the same as that which he introduced, which has never been varied and is in operation to-day. His colleague behind him, the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Pybus) knows that for 3i years he has been sitting on a committee sanctioning money on precisely the same basis, and that I am now merely extending it. The right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but his colleague does not. The only difference in the procedure is that, when the Bill is introduced, if the House wants to put in an Amendment of any amount, I shall measure the interest in the unemployment problem, of those who put it down, by the amount that they include in the Bill. I have not included any amount because I cannot possibly say what the amount is; I cannot say until I see the scheme. But when the

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  House meets in November, every week a question will be asked as to what is the amount sanctioned, and every week both Oppositions, who pride themselves on having us in the palm of their hands, can do what they like when they have heard the answer.
  That, I submit, is a reason why we should not accept this Motion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is engaged; the Prime Minister is engaged on another important matter. I myself left the Chamber for a few minutes only to have a consultation, also on the unemployment problem. I regret having left the Committee for a few moments. I apologise for having done so, but I hope we are not merely going to take advantage of the position which I have endeavoured to make clear.
  Sip LAMING WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The right hon. Gentleman, it seems to me, has given a very good reason why the Committee should report Progress, because we cannot proceed with this matter in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am very sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be elsewhere when his presence is required here, but the House of Commons has some rights in this matter. I do not want to go into the merits of the argument of the right hon. Gentleman as to whether this is a new departure or not. I propose to deal later in the evening with that matter. I hold in my hand the conditions on which previous advances somewhat similar to these were made. Those in-eluded a large number of limitations, and the House of Commons knew of the limitations which were made. To-day we do not know what those limitations are and, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were here, I should ask him in the course of the Debate whether he will or will not follow the limitations which were previously imposed upon the Treasury in sanctioning these loans. It is because he is not here that I support the Motion.
  Mr. THOMAS: May I ask that the Committee shall not be misled into mere Parliamentary tactics. Will the right hon. Gentleman not admit that the point which he now raises as to limitations is a legitimate matter for the Second Reading of the Bill This is only the
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  Financial Resolution, and these questions can be not only answered, but can be dealt with on Report and on the Second Reading.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The House of Commons is entitled to two opportunities of discussing these grave matters. One of those is on the Financial Resolution, and if we chouse we can put limitations in the Financial Resolution preventing the Government of the day bringing in a Bill which is wider than the Financial Resolution, and no Government has the right to ask the House of Commons to waive on of its most precious privileges.
  Mr. THOMAS: I hope the Committee will now observe what the right hon. Gentleman has said. He says the House of Commons has a right. He knows that that right is only exercised by a Motion. Where is that Motion? No Motion has been moved from the other side, and it is fairly obvious that hon. Members did not intend to do it and that this is a mere afterthought.
  Mr. J. JONES: As cue who served four and a-half years' penal servitude under the late Government it comes like a breath of fresh air from the briny to hear hon. Members opposite talk about the rights of the House of Commons. If ever a party trod on the rights of Members of Parliament the party opposite did so. On very few occasions in the last Parliament had we the honour of the presence of the Gentlemen who are now raising this matter. They were only here when they could not help it. If one wanted to find them one always knew where to get them. Now they are standing on their dignity. They are full of it. I stand as an ordinary Member of Parliament and I say that this is all humbug of the most contemptible character. Because a few of our people have been called away their absence has been fastened upon as the excuse for a splendid "beano" by people who were never here when they ought to have been here. Even the leaders of the Liberal party were conspicuous Very their absence in the last Parliament. HOW often were they present? They were attending their party's funeral I expect, but we were here and that was all we could do— to be here.
  Mr. E. BROWN: That is all.
  Mr. JONES: When we were here we were wiped out sometimes with the assistance of the hon. Member's Friends below the Gangway, but they are not going to play that game much longer. I would sooner be defeated than think that I had depended as a member of this party on their kind assistance. We can do without them when we are busy. As an ordinary back bench Member of this Parliament I protest against this contemptible and hypocritical scene.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think a great deal of unnecessary heat has been introduced into what is really a very small matter. The hon. Member who spoke last has thought it necessary to make a quite superfluous attack on the Liberal party. This is not a Motion which comes from any member of the Liberal party, but I think, if I may respectfully say so to the Government, that there is a great deal of ground for the complaint, and I think the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal has misconceived the point. The whole point is whether the representative of the Treasury ought not to be present when a Financial Resolution is being discussed.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: A Resolution in his name.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: After all this Resolution is in the name of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—[Interruption.] The hon. and gallant Gentleman for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), for reasons which we shall know later, has resolved himself into a very active defender of his party.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: So very obvious.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Lord Privy Seal told us that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not be here, and I am sure everybody is prepared to accept that statement. When the right hon. Gentleman says that they have very important business which makes it difficult for them to attend, or that he himself had important business which made it difficult for him to attend, I am sure there is no Member of the Committee who would not willingly accept that statement. But why could not the Financial Secretary be the Treasury be here? Instead of having an exciting Debate about a good deal of matter which is more or less irrelevant
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  and the flinging of recriminations on both sides, would it not be much (better that the right hon. Gentleman or the Financial Secretary, in whose name the Resolution stands, should be present? If there is an overwhelming reason why he should not be present I am sure the Committee would accept it, but up to the present the Lord Privy Seal— [Interruption.] I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not get angry about a small matter of this kind. If he says that there is some overwhelming reason why the Financial Secretary cannot be present the House of Commons is always very reasonable on these occasions, If there is not, I think he ought to be here. I now make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that he should ask the Financial Secretary to be present at the Debate. The Committee is entitled to the presence of the man in whose name the Resolution stands, and, if one representative of the Treasury cannot be here, why cannot the second representative be here May I respectfully suggest to the Lord Privy Seal that in order to bring to an end this rather unpleasant scene and get on with the business of discussing this matter, he should get the Financial Secretary to be present. As far as I am concerned I am prepared to await the explanation which we have been told is going to be given in answer to the direct question which I put.
  Mr. THOMAS: I still submit respectfully that there has been cither a misunderstanding, or an advantage has been taken of the situation. I want to state emphatically that the Financial Secretary could not have given the right hon. Gentleman, in answer to his specific question, a more clear, definite and authoritative answer than I gave. The Financial Secretary was present when I gave it and the right hon. Gentleman must know that, since he has been out, the Financial Secretary has been here all the time. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Excuse me, but he consulted me on the bench. As a matter of fact, there was a public engagement to which he was going, and he said to me, "May I slip away?" and to that I answered, "Yes." [Interruption.] The Noble Lord the Member for Alder-shot (Viscount Wolmer) says I ought to have said, "No." I said, "Yes," but I have already sent for him so that he can

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  come back. I repeat that if he were present he could not add to the specific answer which I have given. I have given that answer and no other answer will be given than the one I have already given.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I would be prepared to withdraw my Motion on the understanding that the Financial Secretary is to come back as quickly as possible to deal with the Resolution which stands in his name. We talk of public engagements, but the House of Commons is a public engagement, and, while an ordinary Member may leave the House, a Minister who is actually in charge of the principal Resolution of the day, especially when that Resolution turns specifically on a topic on which he has primary information, ought to be in his place. I quite understand that the Lord Privy Seal in inadvertence may have told the Financial Secretary that he could go. We know that the Financial Secretary has gone. The Lord Privy Seal says he will now fetch him back, and that he is on his way returning, and I should be ready to withdraw my Motion but for the fact that the Lord Privy Seal went on to say that when he did come back— out of a deference to the House of Commons which I cordially recognise— he could not throw any light on the situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No! "] Well, that he could not throw any more light on the situation than had already been thrown by the Lord Privy Seal himself. Therefore, I am bound to say that I see no escape from the proposition that we ought to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He may have more important work to do outside than he has here, but it does not follow for a moment that the kind if statement on this financial question, which would be made by the Lord Privy Seal, would be couched in the same terms, poised in the same manner, phrased in the same way as that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make. There are different interests and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible more directly in the financial matter than the Lord Privy Seal. Therefore, as he has said that, though he will send for the Financial Secretary, the Financial Secretary can tell us nothing, I am afraid I cannot find any satisfactory ground for withdrawing my Motion.
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  [HON. MEMBERS: "Vote!"] There is no need for hon. Members to get excited. It is a very good thing that people should learn at the very beginning of this Parliament— [Interruption]
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: Stop lecturing.
  Mr. STEPHEN: On a point of Order. I want to ask if the former Chancellor of the Exchequer is in order in handing out this lecture?
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I think you can stop him all the same.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I am strictly in Order and in possession of the Committee, but, owing to the fact that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has now returned, I would not stand between him and this Assembly for another moment.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Motion before the Committee is one to report Progress in order to ensure the attendance of a represents rive of the Treasury. It is quite clear that that representative could not make his statement upon this Motion, and unless this Motion is withdrawn, it is quite impossible for him to speak.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Now that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has arrived and is ready to give us a statement, I am quite ready to withdraw my Motion to report Progress, and I beg to ask leave to do so.
  HON. MEMBERS: No:
  Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.
  Original Question again proposed.
  Sir H. O'NEILL: After that very interesting, if rather heated, episode, I should like to continue the remarks that I was addressing to the Treasury Bench. I was saying that this Resolution practically entailed the payment of a subsidy, and I was drawing attention to the fact that, not only is there power to pay grants to enable public utility concerns to pay interest on their loans, but there is also power to give grants to those concerns in lieu of what in the White Paper is called the assumed interest

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  which they would have had to pay if they had had to raise loans; and I was pointing out that that was going a very long way towards a large financial novelty. The Lord Privy Seal has replied to that criticism by saying that the Lord St. Davids Committee has been doing that for a long time past. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question? Has Lord St. Davids Committee to-day the power to give grants for interest on loans raised by public utility concerns? I do not think it has.
  The other point I want to ask is this: Has Lord St. Davids Committee this further and very far-reaching power to make grants to public utility concerns of the assumed interest that they would have had to pay if it had been necessary for them to raise loans? Those are two very definite and very extreme alterations in the existing procedure, in my opinion. We have not yet been told in what form Parliamentary sanction to those grants is to be asked or obtained. Is it to come forward in the ordinary Estimates? If it does, very possibly they will never be discussed and will go through under the Guillotine without any discussion at all. If it does not come through in the ordinary Estimates, I do not quite see, unless the Government propose some kind of Supplementary Estimate, in what way there is going to be prior sanction to the expenditure of money upon these grants.
  There is another point that I want to raise, in connection with the trade facilities part of this Resolution. Everybody seems to agree that at any rate there is no harm in resuscitating the policy of the Trade Facilities Acts, but I think I am right in saying that when it was proposed to do away with the policy of the Trade Facilities Acts of a year or two ago, among those who approved of that proposal was the present President of the Board of Trade. I think I remember him making a speech in which he agreed that the best policy to be pursued at that time was to bring the Trade Facilities procedure to an end, for the obvious reason that there is only a definite amount of capital available in the loan market of this country, and that if, by giving Government guarantees, you are going to give an artificial lead to the direction in which that capital is to flow, then so much of that capital as is
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  advanced in loans which receive Government guarantees is thereby and therefore diverted from the other channels in which it would have flowed,
  I should be glad if the hon. Member could also tell the Committee whether, during the course of those Acts and that procedure, the Government had to meet any of the guarantees which they had given. Had they to pay up anything? Sometimes loans which are guaranteed go wrong, and the concerns which have been helped come to grief. I want to know whether the Government have had to pay anything in the past in respect of the Trade Facilities proceedings and, if so, how much; and, secondly, I should like to know what is the total amount of the guarantees under the Trade Facilities loans which are at present outstanding. I think we ought to have this information before we finally agree to allow the Government once again to embark on a policy which most of us thought was dead a few years ago. I hope very much that the hon. Gentleman will deal particularly with that very big financial issue which has been raised. Until it has been satisfactorily dealt with and met from the Government Benches I cannot help feeling that there will be a good deal of hesitation, not only on these benches, but on the benches below the Gangway, in supporting the proposals now before the Committee.
  Mr. A. BEVAN: In regard to the complaints made from the opposite benches about the absence of a Treasury representative, I would like to point out that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had been absent almost all the time, immediately after making his own speech. The complaint was that the burden of resistance to the Opposition fell on the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but the burden of the Opposition falls on the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I would not have intervened in this Debate, as this is my first effort, were it not for the fact that we have listened to some very extraordinary speeches from the benches opposite, and I think it is necessary to point out that this is the first example of what we are to expect in the form of collusion between the Tories and the Liberals in obstructionist tactics. The Committee will have observed that there was no attempt at all on the part of Members on the benches above the Gangway

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  opposite to express any opposition to this Resolution until the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) indicated his opposition to the second paragraph of the Motion. When he intimated his opposition, we immediately observed the collusion between the two sides on the benches opposite for the purpose of embarrassing the Government. The desire of the Tories and the Liberals to assist the Government in solving what they have declared to be the most pressing problem of modern times is to be found in the fact that they take the first opportunity to embarrass the Government when the Government are engaged in that effort.
  I listened to the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer with considerable interest, because it was the second time I have heard him. The first time ho was in the role of the bogy man of the Country, over the wireless, and on the second occasion he was the entertainer of the House of Commons. I arrived at the conclusion that his chameleon-like character in polities is founded upon a temperamental disability. He fills all the rôles with such exceeding facility that his lack of political stability is at once explained, He accused the Lord Privy Seal of not being able to produce schemes which would have the immediate effect of making inroads into the volume of unemployment, but I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that this party was not committed in this election to the production of immediate schemes at all. As a matter of fact, the party which did go before the country with a programme of immediately tackling unemployment and reducing it to normal proportions within two years was defeated at the hands of the electorate.
  8.0 p.m.
  The Members on this side of the Committee are committed most strongly to tackle the problem of unemployment, but they were certainly not committed to produce schemes immediately the House of Commons met. Again, the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech attacked the Lord Privy Seal for subsidising and buttressing private enterprise. What else is there for us to do? In the beginning, we were informed that the first time we attempted any application of Socialist principles, our day would end. The same
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  warning was uttered from the Liberal benches, so that we on this side are constrained to do what we can to solve unemployment within the limitations imposed by a Parliamentary minority. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer says that we are bound to fail, and that the schemes submitted are inadequate. All he can say is that he hopes that they will succeed, because if they are not adequate to solve unemployment, we shall, of course, have to go before the country and say that it is impossible to solve any of these problems within the ambit of private enterprise, and that before they can be properly tackled, the country will have to supply Parliament with a Socialist majority to apply Socialist principles. 80 that the party which the ex-Chancellor represents, and the economic interests which he so ably represents in this House, hope that the schemes that will be submitted will be found adequate to solve unemployment. Otherwise, all other remedies having been tried, we shall have to ask the country for a mandate to apply Socialist principles.
  Even if these scheme; should prove inadequate to solve unemployment within the limitations of the strict orthodox economic creed as laid down by the experts of the Treasury, we would like to point out that if governmental action will not make any inroads upon the volume of the unemployed, it appears necessarily to follow that, until private enterprise can be sufficiently recuperative to solve the problem, we shall have to carry this burden of unemployment. If that be so, then, within the limitations of the economic creed laid down by the right hon. Gentleman, all we can ask is that as large a proportion of the national income as possible shall be distributed among the people, so that: they shall be protected from the distress for which the right hon. Gentleman admits they are not responsible. it will be necessary, therefore, for us to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to supply funds out of the private purses of the friends of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer for the purpose of relieving the distress arising from the problem which the right hon. Gentleman says cannot be solved within the circumference of private enterprise. The Lord Privy Seal must find it very difficult to answer satisfactorily the criticisms from both sides of the Opposition.

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  On one side the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer says that these schemes are negligible and will have no effect.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I said that the effect would be negligible.
  Mr. BEVAN: The right hon. Gentleman said the schemes themselves are negligible as remedies for unemployment, which is about the same thing. But if the function of the schemes is to solve unemployment, and the schemes do not solve unemployment, then as means to solving unemployment they are negligible, are they not I That is exactly what the ex-Chancellor said. On the other side, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) disagreed with the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whereas the latter found no ambition at all in the scheme of the Lord Privy Seal, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs found most immense powers in them. He accused the Government of seeking powers so elastic, so ambitious, and so audacious, that hundreds of millions of pounds might be spent within their circumference without asking the House at all. Whereas we are accused from the Conservative Benches of not having sufficient ambition, indeed of being comparatively pedestrian, on the other benches we are accused of being. enormously adventurous. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs that he tried to be audacious in tackling this problem without having too much regard to precedent, but when we seek to show that imaginative enterprise which should appeal to his Celtic imagination, he warns us in portentous tones that never did he remember any application being made for powers so widespread which would commit the country to the expenditure of vast sums of money without the House being given an opportunity of voting it.
  We on this side of the Committee are sympathetic to the Lord Privy Seal in the difficult task which he has to perform, and we can assure him that behind him is a vast volume of support; and if right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite want to consolidate the back benches on this side, they have only to repeat a few of the exhibitions of bad temper and disorder which we have seen this evening. The position as we see it
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  is this. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs says that Paragraph I of the Motion means one of two things: either it means that large powers to spend money are being asked which will be exercised before the autumn, or that autumn will be reached before any schemes are adopted at all. Everyone in the Committee who has not his tongue in his cheek knows that within the limitations imposed by the two Oppositions, it is impossible for the Lord Privy Seal to produce any schemes immediately, because any schemes that would be introduced on his own initiative would have a Socialist character and schemes of such character would involve the co-operation of local government and of private enterprise. Is it reasonable to suppose that schemes of that kind, involving co-operation, negotiation, consultation, and microscopic inquiry into the incidence of the schemes, can be produced within a month in time to obtain the authority of the House of Commons to spend the money? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs knows that it is impossible, so that it is either necessary for the Lord Privy Seal to have a blank cheque from the House immediately, or to be on the other horn of his dilemma and not have it at all until the autumn.
  I submit, therefore, that the only steps that can be taken are being taken to meet this very difficult problem. Speaking as one with some experience of local authorities, we have had during the last two years great difficulty in obtaining any grants for schemes from the late Government. We submitted quite a large number of schemes, arid the answer we always received was that our area was a distressed area, and consequently that we could have no grant. That is our experience in Monmouthshire and Glamorgan. The Lord Privy Seal is taunted because with his prescience and foresight he intends to induce new industries to be set up in those distressed areas. Is there anything wrong in that proposal? Is there anything to which to object I What hon. Members opposite really want is that private enterprise shall set up new industries where it likes in any part of the country, and that the poor people shall migrate to those industries, and have to put up with the bad housing conditions that would exist. What is happening now I There is a drift of industries towards the south, and new industries are

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  springing up all over the place. From South Wales there is a migration of workers to those industries. The heavy overhead charges of South Wales still have to be carried, and the high rates and all the standing charges have to be carried by a declining industry.
  le it not reasonable that, if human ingenuity can do it, new industries should be attracted to those places rather than that new overhead charges should be set up elsewhere. We prefer to see that done within the circumference of the powers for which the Government are asking, and we hope that it will be possible to erect in South Wales new industries to provide more means of employment for our people. I wish every success to the Lord Privy Seal, and I hope that he will not be deterred by the factious opposition to which he has been subject. I hope that the Members of the Liberal benches will realise that the public will judge them exactly by the extent to which they support the schemes of the Lord Privy Seal. We of course anticipate trouble while we are tackling the problem, and expect that every means of Parliamentary obstruction will be used to make the task more difficult. But that will not serve to convince the country that Parliamentary tactics are the most important things in this regard. When we have the opportunity of making our report to the country, we shall claim that we have had our eyes on the needs of the people, and not on the acrobatics of Parliamentary tactics.
  Major GLYN: The hon. Member who has just spoken appears to be under the impression that those of us who wish to see the proper procedure of Parliament strictly followed are not in sympathy with the efforts which are being made to solve the problem of unemployment, a subject to which all parties in this House ought to devote their attention; but just as we, when we sat on those benches in the last Parliament, found Members of the Opposition anxious to see the Treasury properly represented, so what took place just now was merely an attempt on our part to see that the proper functions of Parliament as the guardian of the public purse are maintained, and I am quite sure that all on the Treasury Bench fully realise that that was the sole object of the late Chancellor
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  of the Exchequer. [HON. MEMBEES: "No!"] The object of my intervention is to welcome very heartily the proposals of the Lord Privy Seal from one point of view, at any rate, namely, that of the railway companies.
  I have never concealed from the House that I am interested in railways, and I am very glad to find that in this Parliament there are nine or ten representatives of the employés of the railways, and I am sure that by the co-operation of all the interests concerned with railways we shall secure a better state of affairs when, under the statutory provisions under which railways carry on their work, they have to come to Parliament for approval of any new undertakings. When a railway company comes to Parliament seeking powers to lay down a new colliery line in some part of the country the Measure has to run the gamut of protests concerning third-class sleepers, water-bottles in railway carriages, and every other conceivable subject connected with railways. I have known Debate after Debate in connection with certain railway Bills in which not a single hon. Member has mentioned the project contained in that Bill.
  A great deal of employment can be found if railways can secure the assistance of Parliament in facilitating the passage of Measures to carry out improvements. Nobody knows the railways situation better than does the Lord Privy Seal, and nobody wishes to speak more highly of him than I wish to in regard to matters concerning railways, because I have never appealed to him for assistance in this House on a matter of importance to the railways without being certain of getting his advice and, if he considered the proposal a good one, his help; and therefore I am sure that any of us who can combine the two objects of improving the conditions of transport and co-operating with the right hon. Gentleman in any scheme will readily give him support.
  Something has been said in the Debate about the electrification of Liverpool Street station. The electrification of a station is a matter of importance, but obviously any system of electrification must go beyond the station and out into the country. The last Government passed a Measure which was, perhaps, of greater practical value to the country than almost

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  any other measure of the last decade, the Electricity Act, and when it comes Into full force it will be found that electrical energy can be supplied all over the country. I trust that by its means it will be possible to electrify further portions of the railway system of the country, and I am convinced that those who are co-operating with the Lord Privy Seal in dealing with unemployment will not be backward in utilising the advantages of that Act, even though it was passed by their political opponents. If we are to get cheap power, the one thing necessary is to increase the day load; and that will also mean cheaper light. The railway companies are only too anxious to co-operate in any great national schemes such as the Electricity Act provided for, but it is necessary that they should have the active assistance of this House if it be necessary for them to secure additional powers from Parliament. Therefore, I hope that when the railways do come here for further powers the Lord Privy Seal and the other members of the Treasury Bench will see that the real object the companies have in view is not sidetracked by the ventilation of some petty grievance, such as the loss of a parcel on some section of the line.
  A certain amount of publicity is being given to the proposal to introduce steel sleepers, but the highest technical opinion does not regard the use of steel sleepers as providing the simple solution of the unemployment difficulty or assisting railway development which some people believe it does. The conditions in our climate are very different from those where steel sleepers are most effective. Nobody knows what will be the result of laying down steel sleepers in our damp, humid climate. They are admirable in sand and in a dry climate.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: Is it not a fact that steel sleepers are in general use on the German railways and on the French railways? I seem to have noticed them.
  Major GLYN: They are in use en certain sections of the French railways, especially in the south, where the soil is very sandy and there is a good deal of dust, and it is necessary to get a big, broad spread. But those are technical points which it would not be proper for me to go into at the moment. Another direction in which a
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  great deal of good might be done but to which no reference has been made would be in the construction of steel rolling stock. Recently the French railways put into service some admirable rolling stock made of steel. In this country there are not the facilities for constructing steel rolling stock which we should like to see. If something could be done to provide them it would not only be of assistance to the men in the steel industry but would be of real benefit in the operating of railways in this country.
  There is another matter in connection with railways the importance of which is not generally understood by the public. One of the must important things we have to do is to encourage tourist travel. Many people would come to this country from the United States and other countries if they could get the same accommodation in our rural hotels as is available to them in their own country. The Lord Privy Seal has made no mention in any of his schemes of the necessity for renovating and reconstructing the inns and hotels of the country. Unless they are brought up to date we cannot attract tourists, although the money they spend would be very useful, and, incidentally, there would be good employment locally of a permanent character.
  Miss WILKINSON: Seeing that these inns are nearly all of them tied houses belonging to the brewers, surely the hon. and gallant Member might make his representations to those gentlemen, who make such large profits out of the community?
  Major GLYN: I am afraid I cannot answer for the brewers. All I can do is to make a general statement that the railway companies and others concerned with tourist facilities feel that there is a great field of development in the improvement of the condition of our hotels and inns, with or without the help of the brewers. It is a matter on which we should concentrate if we desire to bring more money into the country. I was disappointed to see that the Lord Privy Seal's speech made no mention of the Empire Marketing Board. I have always regretted that it is not possible for the Board as now constituted, to advertise British products in the Dominions and in the Colonies. The machinery of that organisation, which has become highly efficient in advertising

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  Dominion and Colonial products in this country, ought to be used to advertise the products of British labour in the Dominions and Colonies. Every year there is a great exhibition in Toronto. It opens the eyes of anyone from these islands who visits it as to the huge possibilities of the Dominion of Canada. I should like to see the Empire Marketing Board havings its exhibit of British goods there, because it would be a means of stimulating the demand for the products of British labour at home, and assisting us to secure more continuous employment for British workers.
  There is the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. Those of us who have had an opportunity of studying the work of that Board realise the enormous progress that it has made, and the great benefit that it is to those who utilise the knowledge available as a result of the experiments and work of that department. I often think that we do not give half enough attention to those very devoted civil servants who spend very anxious days and have very disappointing moments in their work. Sometimes they try experiments which finish in a dead end, while on other occasions their experiments lead to very important and useful results. We should do a little more to teach employers the great advantage to be gained by improving the conditions under which the workers labour, and more should be done to make the workers interested in the work that they are doing. The working of a lathe is very monotonous, but, if you can do anything to make the worker interested in the article which he is making on the lathe, the result will be more beneficial to all parties. In these days of rationalisation, if firms came together more they might utilise the discoveries of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research which costs £456,000 a year. The question has been asked: Are we really getting value for that expenditure? I know that those men are worth the money, but I think employers ought to put the results of this scientific department to much greater use than they do at the present time.
  The form in which this Resolution has been drawn has been blessed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). The right hon. Gentleman
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  told us that it was a good scheme and he was not going to quarrel with it because there was not effective Treasury control. I believe that there is effective Treasury control, and I hope we shall support the Lord Privy Seal in his schemes for the solution of the unemployment problem. I believe the right hon. Gentleman will work for permanent results which will be far more effective. I think on this question we can all assist the Lord Privy Seal, and I am certain that it is a mistake to ignore private enterprise. On the other hand, we have in this country something which one day will be the model of the world, and that is the formation of public utility undertakings subject to Parliamentary control. We are now working out something on those lines, and the Balfour Report is one of the most interesting and enlightening documents I have ever read. If Parliament will sanction founds to enable public utility societies to go ahead providing those things which are so much needed, then we shall do something, not only to help to solve the unemployment problem, but also to solve that vexed question of how you can get for the community all it requires and how you can check profiteering which nobody wants— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]— at any rate, nobody on this side of the House wants profiteering, and none of us stand for profiteering. One of the main objects of the late Government was to break down monopolies.
  It is most interesting to see how the great co-operative movement which is a great and wonderful force has progressed. We have all seen how that great movement, when its interests are being affected, swings round more to the side of private enterprise than nationalisation. My experience of the co operative movement is that when it is properly operated it gives all the advantages that nationalisation could possibly offer, and a great many of the benefits of private enterprise. I hope the Lord Privy Seal will go forward with his schemes. I believe the Treasury control is adequate, and it would be a delusion to suppose that those on this side of the House are not just as anxious as any hon. Members opposite to see a permanent solution found of the unemployment problem.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): I

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  sum very pleased to have heard the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn) in which he has welcomed these proposals. I think the Committee generally have welcomed the proposals contained in the Resolution. Questions have been raised with regard to the financial aspect of the scheme. Perhaps I may take this opportunity of uttering a personal word with regard to the incident which happened a short time ago. I quite understand the legitimate party game of moving to report Progress in order to call attention to the absence of the representatives of the Treasury, but that is only part of the rough and tumble of political warfare. If hon. Members opposite think that we have been at all discourteous to the Committee, then I express my regret that that should be so. As a matter of fact, I sat in the House during the delivery of the three opening speeches, and I understood that the Lord Privy Seal had answered to the satisfaction of the Committee the criticisms made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It was not until I felt sure that hon. Members were satisfied with the reply which had been given that I left the House in order to attend a public function, but when I gathered that I was wanted here I returned immediately.
  On the actual merits of the financial position, I think there has been a great deal of misunderstanding. The procedure we have adopted is not at all unusual, and the rights of Members of the House of Commons are fully safeguarded. The machinery which this Financial Resolution contemplates is very familiar to the Committee, and it is the same as that which is adopted in regard to all financial proposals which come before the House of Commons. The Estimate will be prepared and introduced at the usual time and then the whole question will be open for discussion in the usual way. When our proposals have been earned under the normal machinery of the House, then Ministers will be able under the usual restrictions and limitations to Carry out their proposal The only point of difference arises with regard to the initiation of this scheme in the current year. The intention of the Government is, at an early date, to produce a Supplementary Estimate and submit
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  it to the House. It is not their intention to submit it before the House rises for the Summer Vacation, because that would really be a nugatory proposal. It is quite clear that, this Resolution having been taken, and the Bill having been taken through all its stages, it will be necessary for some little time— not very long— to elapse before any schemes can actually germinate, and before we can be ready to form an idea of the amount that would be required. If it were suggested that a Supplementary Estimate ought to be introduced before the Recess, it could be introduced, but it would have to be for a token amount. Whatever amount might be fixed would have to be based on what would actually be done, and it is the intention of the Government, at a suitable time after the Summer Recess, to introduce a Supplementary Estimate.
  Hon. Members, no doubt, will wish to know whether that limits the action of the Government in the meanwhile, and my answer to that is this: If this Committee agrees to this Resolution, and if, subsequently, the House agrees to the Second Reading, and the Bill is carried through its Committee and Third Reading stages, the Government will feel that they are entitled to proceed to put the effect of the Bill into operation. They will go ahead and make the commitments, and, when the House reassembles after the Recess, they will bring in a Supplementary Estimate, having by that time the necessary information for making that Estimate a real one instead of an imaginary one, as would be the case if it were brought in before the Recess. There is nothing unusual about that, and there is nothing unreasonable about it. The House will have the opportunity, in all the stages of the Bill, of understanding what the procedure is to be, and the Government will have the opportunity of explaining the kind of schemes that they propose. It would be quite unreasonable to tie the Government down to some particular figure at this stage. Further than that, it would be futile, because, obviously, what the Government will do will not be to spend money between now and October. The money is not wanted for immediate use; it is a commitment of the Government to meet the interest on loans as it becomes due Therefore, the Supplementary Estimate will be produced before the commitments

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  take effect, and the commitments will be made on the strength of the passing of this Resolution and of the Bill, if it meets with a favourable reception from the House, through all its stages in the House.
  This question was originally propounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, and, if there is anyone who ought not to complain of the way in which the Government propose to handle this matter, it is the right hon. Gentleman himself, because he went a great deal further than that in dealing with Lord St. Davids' Committee. It is quite true that he named a definite sum of, I think, £3,000,000, and he secured a definite Vote of the House for that sum, but as a matter of fact, before that Vote was through the House, he had already made certain commitments in regard to offering 30 percent, of the additional wages paid, and not only so, but he changed the whole nature of the grant, and made commitments extending to 15 years, without any particular express sanction of the House. In point of fact, he committed the House of Commons in advance to an expenditure which has never been regularised, and every year in the Estimates we are called upon to vote a sum, which at the present time is about £2,000,000, in order to implement the commitments which were made under Lord St. Davids' scheme owing to the action which was taken at that time and which has been taken by successive Governments since. As has already been explained, it is part of the procedure which the Government are intending to carry through in this Resolution and the Bill which will follow, that that action in connection with Lord St. Davids' Committee, which up to now has been of an irregular character shall be regularised.
  What will be done under the definite proposals of the Government is quite simple, and each year it will be in accord in every respect with the normal, orthodox control procedure in the House of Commons, with, as I have pointed out, only slight divergencies in the immediate future. I am quite sure that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the Committee who have expressed their desire that we should not wait but should get on with the work will see that the present emergency demands rapid action,
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  and, as I have already said, it would be merely nugatory if we were to attempt to carry a token Vote through the House before the Recess. I think I have answered the main point, which was that raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) out to me two questions which I will answer at the same time. In the first place, I understood him to ask what actually was the action of the St. Davids Committee. I should have thought that the answer was well known to the House. They advance 50 percent, on all revenue-producing schemes, and 75 percent, on non-revenue-producing schemes, up to a period of 15 years. I should have thought that that was well known to all Members of the House. The right hon. Gentleman asked another question, in regard to which I have had to get exact information before answering it.
  Mr. E. BROWN: Is it not the case that the 75 percent, only relates to interest, whereas the other relates to interest and capital?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: At the present time it is both, but I cannot deal with that point now.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: It wants clearing up; it is a very important point.
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: If there is still some doubt in the minds of Members of the Committee, no doubt a later speaker will give information on the point. I am dealing with the scheme of the Government.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Would the hon. Gentleman say whether that also applies to the grants, that is to say, to paragraphs and (S) of the Financial Resolution? Does the procedure indicated apply also to these grants?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Yes, that is what it does apply to. It applies to paragraph (2)—
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: And paragraph (3)?
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: It applies to the cases where we are prepared to commit ourselves to pay the interest up to 15 years. It applies to

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  paragraphs (2) and (3). With regard to the other question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Antrim, I understood him to ask what was the loss up to date on the Trade Facilities loans. There is still outstanding, or was at the end of the last financial year, £67,000,000 of guarantees, out of a total of £72,000,000 given. There has been issued u fulfilment of the guarantees a sum of £342,000, but, of course, the amount still outstanding is very large, and, as some of it goes on for 15 years, I must not be taken to convey the impression that the whole burden we are actually called upon to boar is covered by the £342,000. It is not a very large sum compared with the very big amount involved. I think I have dealt with all the points that have been raised. If there are any further points I, or some other member of the Government, will reply.
  Mr. BLINDELL: I should feel some what honoured in following the hon. Gentleman inasmuch as to-day, at all events, of all the Members who constitute this House he happens to be the one man who matters, and it seems as if we cannot possibly get along unless he is here. It is not my intention to follow the financial or other arguments with regard to the proposals in the scheme except to say that I wondered, in listening to the hon. Gentleman, whether the House really appreciated that there was a difference when he said that between now and October the Government would not be actually spending money but would be simply committing themselves to spending it. I do not see much difference. If the commitment is made, the money will have to be found. I leave it there. I have been interested in noticing the reception the Governmnt proposals have received from their supporters. I have come to this conclusion, that the wonderful amount of enthusiasm displayed in the country with regard to the ability of this party to solve the problem of unemployment IS gradually melting away. Anyhow it is not very demonstrable.
  There is not very much enthusiasm for the proposals before the Committee at the moment. Indeed the hon. Member who spoke last from that side of the House said we had committed ourselves prior to the election to immediate proposals for solving the unemployment
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  problem, and he assured the House that Members on the other side were not definitely committed. Perhaps they were not, but in 1924 they were committed, and they then said that definite proposals were prepared to solve unemployment, and the electors of the country to-day are asking for the redemption of that pledge, though it was given four or five years ago. We did pledge ourselves, and hon. Members who are supporting the Government and hon. Members above the Gangway were quite right in their prediction that we should not be called upon to fulfil that pledge. We are not called upon to fulfil that pledge and we are jolly sorry we are not because, if we were, we should have taken our courage in both hands and we should have told the country exactly how we were going to do it. I welcome the proposals contained in the speech of the Lord Privy Seal the other day and in this Resolution, 90 far as they go. I take them as an instalment of something else that is to come which to-day cannot be absolutely defined, but we are hoping for the best, and I believe the Lord Privy Seal realises, and I believe he has realised all along the line, that this is a baffling problem, and he is relying not only upon the assistance of hon. Members behind him and hon. Members on this side, because he will get that, but upon the local authorities up and down the country for all the assistance possible. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has a perfect right to do so!"] Well, I can talk about it. We are only just agreeing. He has a perfect right and, if he says he will give a guarantee, he has an equal right to give it, and I wish he would.
  I believe the reception of this proposal has not been quite so enthusiastic as I should have liked to see it from hon. Members opposite. As I understand the Resolution, we are to have a revival of the activities of the old Lord St. Davids Committee, but their functions are to be somewhat curtailed, inasmuch as I believe during recent days they have been considering schemes submitted to them by public utility undertakings, and grants have been made, but that particular function is to be taken from them. In place of that, there is to be another Committee, and— I am rather glad of this— it is to be responsible directly to the Treasury. It is going to deal with applications

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  and schemes submitted by public utility undertakings, and they are not to be in a circumscribed area, but in other ways the financial conditions imposed upon Lord St. David" Committee are not to apply to this new Committee. There I see some hope, because I feel that the Lord Privy Seal knows what is going to follow, and probably in the near future we shall have from him some real scheme which will go a long way towards solving the problem. The new Committee is to be guided by two principles, they will be in a position to guarantee the principal and interest, or both, upon loans raised in order to put schemes into operation, or they will be able to make grants covering a part or the whole of the interest on loans which will be raised. I expect some hon. Members opposite will say that is bolstering up private enterprise. I hope they will not, because whatever money is going to be given away is coming from private enterprise, and it is going to be given back in some small measure again to private enterprise, and if by that credit the Lord Privy Seal can put hundreds of thousands of men into work at good wages, under good conditions, it will be money well spent, and we ought not to cavil at the system we are adopting in order to accomplish it.
  Seeing that the object of the Lord Privy Seal appears to be to create immediate employment, much of which will be of a temporary measure, because when some of these schemes have been carried out some of us may argue that the men will again be out of work, I want to ask whether he is going to give this new committee power to go a little further than I believe he has already said and give them power to render financial assistance in order to re-establish some of our industries which have fallen by the way. I mean industries of national importance, industries which are worth resuscitating, which will serve the nation well and will provide not only temporary but permanent work. I have in my mind a port on the East Coast which once had a fishing industry. It then created a volume of employment for the town. But the industry has gone, and I should like to know whether the Lord Privy Seal will give the new committee power to consider any scheme brought forward for reestablishing the fishing industry in that
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  port. If you do, you will provide immediate employment for the men in that town. You will provide immediate employment for men engaged in other trades, in the building of new trawlers, and, indeed, you will he p the nation along by giving an increased food supply. I believe that along those lines much can be accomplished, because, after all, we ought to take a long view and remember that we not only wart to find immediate work but to find work which will last. We want to lift up the standard of living of the working-class, and in order to do that we ought to have our eye upon schemes which will give them permanent employment at decent rates of pay.
  There is another point which I would like to bring forward. in all the discussions which we have had with regard to unemployment, I have heard hardly a word said about the unemployment which undoubtedly exists in the agricultural industry. For the first time for many years in the countryside we have an increasing number of men who are unable to find work, men whom we hear very little about. I am afraid that some of the proposed schemes may be put into operation, and that, as a result of the conditions imposed, men may be transferred from other area to our countryside, and our country lads may have to stand by and see these men working. There are hardly any opportunities in rural England for those agricultural labourers to find other work. I hope that the conditions that will govern the activities of this new committee will be of such a nature that where there is a volume of unemployment— a small volume if you like— in an agricultural district and work is to proceed there under any scheme that may be presented, the committees will not insist upon sending, in any large numbers at all events, men from the depressed areas. I realise quite well that the depressed areas have a tremendous problem, but I do not think that we shall get over the problem of unemployment by bringing these men to work in districts where our own local men would have to stand by and see other men work while they themselves could not get an honest day's work. That is all I have to say about the matter, except that I sincerely hop"' that this is merely the beginning of a very much

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  larger scheme which the Lord Privy Seal will present to the House. I feel with regard to this great problem of unemployment that I would go to almost any length in support of any sensible scheme which would provide for the men who really want an honest day's work.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. PALMER: I want, in saying a word in support of this Motion, to take this opportunity of drawing the attention of the Committee to one or two main facts which emerge. The first and most obvious question which every phase and shade of opinion in this Committe has to face is the question: Are we prepared to pay the price for a solution of the great unemployment problem? When we come up against great national issues like the late War, it is always a question of finance and a question of "Are we prepared to pay, or what are we paying?" I want the Committee of the House of Commons to come hack to the point that the unemployment problem in this country is a gigantic question which cannot be solved without paying the price, I would like to see it brought home to the Government and to the Treasury that this is not only ghastly from the point of view of the standard of human values, the loss of moral, the distress that obtains among the victims of unemployment, but that it is, indeed, a more costly problem in some respects than war itself. I would like legislation to go forward. I think the method adopted by the Government in inviting the Lord Privy Seal to take over the responsibility for finding work, for organising work, and making the cost and the payment and the financial provisions secondary all the time is a right one.
  If is perfectly clear from the speeches to which we have already listened that there is a tremendous amount of goodwill in the House and in the country at large for any man or any Government, or any set of men, who can bring about a solution of the unemployment problem. I come back to my original question: Are we prepared to pay the price? Private enterprise and capitalists are disposed to say— and this is one of the difficulties to which we might as well face up as honest men— "We are not prepared to pay the price." Some of the speeches have contained suggestions like this:
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  "Well, if you can organise employment, if you can absorb- a million unemployed or more without it costing any more, if you can introduce changes in the hours for instance, or a depression of wages, so that they can be absorbed, and it does not touch the dividends of this big commercial undertaking or the other, then 'God bless the Lord Privy Seal and those working with him; go ahead with the scheme.'" I think we have to come to the conclusion that the unemployment problem is one of those hideous and great issues for which we must be prepared to pay the price, and which we must treat as something in the nature of a national emergency. We have to adopt some of the same sort of machinery and the same sort of attitude and outlook on a question like this, as we adopted when we were in the War and when we wanted to organise work of national importance in regard to the manufacture of shells and the building of ships and those kind of things.
  I urge hon. Members to come back to the plain facts of the case, to put their hands on their hearts, so to speak, and to make up their minds whether or not they are prepared resolutely to act fairly. It is easy, perhaps, for the hon. Member who claimed that he represented the railways, to say that the capitalists do not want to be profiteers. That may be true in regard to the railways, which are not making 50 percent, dividends, but it may be an altogether different thing in the case of Courtaulds, or other people who are making a tremendous amount of money. In supporting this Resolution, hen. Members must face up to the question of unemployment as a thing that is right at the heart and well-being of this nation. We ought to make it the supreme issue and be prepared to pay the price and to separate the consideration of the problem from every other consideration. There is, however, a sense in which the problem cannot stand alone, because there are many issues revolving round it. The question of world wide peace will contribute towards the solution of the unemployment problem. The wheels of industry will go faster when we face up to the real issue, and when it is the general attitude of all and sundry to recognise that we are here faced with a disease, a disaster, a tragedy of a national character, which must be remedied, and for the solution of which the whole energy of the nation, whether

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  finance, man-power or organisation, must be harnessed.
  There have been many speeches in the House within the last few days suggesting that there is no solution of this problem. That argument is always put forward under the present capitalist system. The capitalists tell the world how miserable their standard of society has become, and how near we are to the inevitable solution in the bringing of Socialism into operation in this country. As a Socialist, I maintain that a capitalist concern which is organised properly, which is not unfairly exploiting the workers and which may possibly do as well as an industry run direct for the State, can be of great service in solving the problem of unemployment and getting ahead with this scheme. We must have some regard for the real needs of the case. We must come to a decision on this Resolution, realising that it is one of many steps that will have to be taken in this House not only with the support of hon. Members on this side but with the general consent of all parties in order to bring nearer the day when we shall have a solution of this problem. We cannot lose sight of the urgency of the case and the fact that we are fast approaching the winter season, when unemployment is always rife. I would urge upon the Lord Privy Seal the necessity for speeding up at every point the organisation of schemes which will bring hope of employment and of a better life into thousands or millions of homes.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I was interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Palmer), but as he was formerly a Member of this House I cannot congratulate him on having made a maiden speech. He said that he realised that in all parts of the House there was goodwill in finding a solution of the unemployment problem. We all agree with him in that statement. But the hon. Member proceeded to say that, judging from speeches on this side of the House, certain hon. Members were desirous of reducing wages and lengthening the hours of labour. I have listened patiently to the whole of the Debate to-day and I have not heard any such suggestion from this side. If the Debate lasted a week the hon. Member would not hear such a suggestion.
  Mr. PALMER: I did not specifically refer to any speech made from the other side. I said that I had heard speeches and that the philosophy was the lengthening hours and reducing wages.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: The hon. Member wishes to withdraw his statement.
  Mr. PALMER: I do not. I withdraw nothing.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: The hon. Member cannot have it both ways. Either he did hear that statement made, or he did not. I deny that it was ever said. I am certain that no hon. Member on this side of the House would make such a suggestion. The hon. Member for Boston-with-Holland (Mr. Blindell) has delivered an interesting speech. When he talked about his own party and what they promised during the General Election, and compared it with the promises of the Conservative party and the party now represented on the: Government benches, I was amused, because it re-minded me of a certain old gentleman who lived in Lincolnshire— which the hon. Member and myself have the honour to represent— and who was reputed to be a miser. People were surprised when it was announced in the newspapers that this old man was going to present £1,000 to every person who had been in his employ for twenty years. People said: "Is not it wonderful." But when someone spoke to the old gentleman and said: "You are going to give a lot of money away," he replied; "No. There is not one person who has worked for me more than two years, but it looks nice in the papers." That is the position of the Liberal party. They 1- new that they would not have to fulfil the promises they made. Therefore, they declared that they would immediately bring forward a remedy for this great evil.
  The Lord Privy Seal hid more sense than to do that. He had an idea in his mind that it might be possible he would have to tackle the problem. Therefore, he did not make elaborate promises, as did certain members of his own party. I commend him upon that. It is difficult to realise the complexity of the problem unless one has been in close touch with it from the departmental point of view or from the point of view of those who have had experience of unemployment. Those who suggest that you can

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  bring forward schemes that will have an immediate effect in solving the problem speak without knowledge. The Lord Privy Seal has brought forward a sensible scheme to bring some immediate relief, merely as a paliative, but it is a first instalment of something really tangible towards the solution of the problem.
  He made this point, that it was unwise to provide work for men who had been trained in a particular trade, skilled men, which would only mean that they would lose their skill. I quite agree; and I hope that in the schemes that are submitted to the Committee special care will be taken to select those which will provide work for skilled engineers and other men who, if put on to Toad-making work, will not only lose their skill but their heart as well. As one who has been connected with unemployment and distress committees for many years I know that one of the biggest problems we have to face is the problem of dealing with men who have been trained at a skilled occupation. I have seen them put on to road making and ratepayers, realising that their work is not as good as that of the skilled navvy, have made derogatory remarks which have been very painful to the men themselves, I have heard them say, "Look at him, he is wasting public money." It is not the fault of the man; he has been put on to a job for which he is not suitable. Then in respect of the Unemployed Grants Committee, the Lord Privy Seal remarked that in the early stages of the Committee a large number of schemes were approved and sanction given to the expenditure of, I think he said, £150,000,000.
  Mr. THOMAS: £105,000,000.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: He also said that there has been a great diminution in the amount sanctioned during the last three years. There is a reason for that, and I submit that it is different to the reason suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. I have had a good deal of experience of Lord St. Davids' Committee; I have practically slept on their doorstep trying to get schemes into operation for my own people. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that in the early days local authorities had many schemes which they wanted to put into operation
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  and they came up in great numbers to the Committee. They were approved and put into operation. But local authorities have found out that although in the old days they could get 60 percent, of the interest and sinking fund on long revenue-earning schemes, it still left a big burden on the local authority, and those which had most unemployment had the least money to spend. They had to slow up. That was the great reason why as many schemes were not brought forward as would otherwise have been the case. Then the best schemes were brought forward In the early stages. Some schemes which have been brought up later meant a huge expenditure of money. One scheme I have in mind was a case in which they asked for a grant of something like £40,000, and the utmost number of men that could be employed on the scheme was 40. It was not good sound finance from the public point of view or the local point of view; and that is why many of the schemes were turned down. The Lord Privy Seal will find from experience that local authorities are not in a position to put a large number of schemes into operation unless they get more generous treatment from the Unemployment Grants Committee.
  Under the last Order of the late Government, 75 percent, of the interest and sinking fund was to be allowed to those local authorities who put into operation schemes of a non-revenue earning character on condition that they took 50 percent, of the people employed from the necessitous areas. In respect of revenue-earning schemes they were to be allowed 50 percent, of the interest only for a term of 15 years. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is going to make grants under the same terms and conditions as were proposed in the late Government scheme. This is a very important matter indeed. He is doing what I consider to be a very wise thing; reducing the percentage unemployment figure from 15 to 10, but even at the figure of 10 you are going to bar out some of the best and most useful schemes that can be put forward. The best schemes to put into operation are those which not only find employment now but when completed will find continuous employment. I know of schemes which would have brought work to 1,000 men immediately.
  Mr. THOMAS: What schemes?
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: Dock schemes; and they are some of the best because if there is one thing we do want in this country it is to bring absolutely up-to-date the majority of our docks around the coast.
  Mr. THOMAS: I think I had better answer the bon. Member at once. He asks whether I propose to alter the basis of the grants, because he says,"if you do I have in my mind certain schemes which will not only give employment now, but in the future." When I asked what schemes, he said," docks." The two things are different. If he will look at the Financial Resolution he will find that we are anxious to help and encourage such schemes but they are removed entirely from the St. Davids Committee. They are dealt with under Part 3 of the Resolution.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: Then I may take it that the Circular of the late Government will be withdrawn?
  Mr. THOMAS: A new Circular will be issued.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: Schemes already approved will go on?
  Mr. THOMAS: Yes.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I am very glad to have had that information; it is very valuable. In the past many of these dock schemes have been turned down, not only by the late Government but by the Government before that, and by the Coalition Government, on the ground that it was possible that some railway company would get a little benefit from carrying ore. I understand the right hon. Gentleman is going to clear that right out of the way and make railway companies eligible for grants in the same way as corporations.
  Mr. THOMAS: All the row of two hours ago was on that particular point. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) put a question to me to-day which I answered; and the hon. Member's own leader kicked up all the row because of private enterprise.
  Mr. E. BROWN: In my case, the Lord Privy Seal is entirely wrong. The Leith Docks is not a private enterprise, it is a
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  statutory trust company, and, although a statutory trust company not making private profits, it was turned down on the ground of not being a rating authority but a revenue-earning undertaking.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman because I have a real interest in the question of unemployment. I do not regard it as a political question; and that is the best way to approach it in this House. I want to ask the Lord Privy Seal what he is going to do about the transfer of labour from the distressed areas? In dealing with the great problem of unemployment it is not wise to have a parochial point of view. It has been said that an attempt will be made to get certain industries into the distressed mining areas, but I know sufficient of the business men to realise that the Lord Privy Seal has got the biggest job in the world to persuade them to go into these particular areas. They prefer to be near large centres of population where they can draw on female labour and have the benefit of lower rates. What is the right hon. Gentleman going to do in regard to this transference scheme? If he is going to blot it out he is going to do a great injustice to men in the distressed areas who are keen on work. Under the scheme of the late Government certain men were transferred from the Durham area, arid I have made it my business to ask for reports as to how they have worked. I am informed that better workmen have never been on the job; the contractor is perfectly satisfied with the way in which they are doing their work and keeping their time. That goes to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that these men are keen upon getting work and will do the work when it is provided. I want to ask the Lord Privy Seal if he is going to issue a circular setting out the terms and conditions at an early date. I hope it will be before the House rises, because many of us who are keen about getting schemes put forward would like to be able to put the terms and conditions before the local authorities as soon as possible.
  Mr. THOMAS: This afternoon I indicated that I took the unusual course of making an appeal to local authorities through the Press on Saturday last. I did it deliberately, because I wanted to get them going with the schemes. I dared not have issued a circular, because

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  you have seen to-day how very careful one has to be, with all the talk about good will. You see how it operates in the House, and, if I had dared to issue a circular before I had Parliamentary authority, I should have been jumped upon by the other side. I hope the hon. Member will keep that in mind.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I am much obliged for that explanation, but I am not quite in agreement with the right hon Gentleman as regards the action taken to-day, because I have a very vivid recollection of certain little scenes in the last Parliament. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree that he would have been the first person in the world to have objected to certain money being spent without Parliamentary sanction and proper explanation. He knows as well as I do that his big difficulty, even during the short time he has been in office, has been with the Treasury. I am delighted to know that he is putting up a fight with the Treasury, and I know he will take his coat off because he is not afraid of them. I have had a good deal of experience in dealing with applications for grants, for we have to consult with the various Government Departments and with the Unemployment Grants Committee. They always say that you must wait to hear what the Treasury have to say about it. I do not want the local authorities—
  Mr. McKINLAY: On a point of information—
  The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): There is no such thing as a point of information.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: Finally, I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman which of the old schemes he intends to continue. He said that the scheme introduced by the late Government in the latter part of last year had to go by the board, but is he going to continue the old schemes which allowed local authorities to come along, even though they had not a very large amount of unemployment, and the ordinary schemes at the lower rate of percentage grant? I hope that before scrapping all these schemes he will go very carefully into what has been their effect, and at any rate will utilise those schemes which are useful in solving the problem. Finally, I wish the Lord Privy
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  Seal the best of good luck in his effort to do something immediately. I want to warn him that he is not going to absorb as much of the unemployment as some hon. Members think. At any rate, if he takes some percentage away from this vast army of unemployed, it is going to be a help. I hope that before we meet again in November he will have something in the way of a more permanent settlement of that question to put before the House, such as the late Government were putting forward— something to stimulate productive industry in this country, for, unless we get it really working well, we shall never solve the unemployment problem.
  Mr. SORENSEN: Many references have been made to the necessity of good will, and I am quite sure that on this side we all feel the desire to face up to the problem in that spirit. But we must all realise it is not merely a question of good will but a question of the need for good thought as well. After all, good will has often accompanied the blindest actions or inactions on the part of all of us. We have had plenty of good will during the last century and even during the last 4½ years, but, in spite of that fact, poverty and unemployment have grown apace. At the same time, I would also point out that many of those who had good will, quite sincerely, nevertheless also advanced the argument that there was an iron law, which they called the economic law, which we could not possibly break. I submit that what we call the economic law is constantly changing and that in the last 100 years we have seen a very severe modification of the interpretation of the economic law which prevailed in the early part of that period.
  That being so, I am personally gratified to notice that the scheme which the Lord Privy Seal and his colleagues are putting forward for some mitigation of unemployment, is receiving the support not merely of Members on this side but on the other side of the House. That fact, in itself, seems to me to expose the shallowness of the contention of some hon. Members that those who are sitting here are not supporting the development of Socialist principles. The other day a Member on the Front Bench opposite declared himself as in disagreement with the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer and

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  said that there was no great unbridgable gulf between his point of view and ours. In one sense, that is perfectly true, and the mere fact that suggestions for the assistance of private enterprise through public enterprise is receiving the support of all Members of the House is an indication of the fact that the principle of public enterprise and public assistance has made astounding progress in the last 40 or 50 years. I am quite certain that the predecessors of the parties opposite 40 or 50 years ago never dreamt of supporting the very principles which those parties are patronising and supporting to-day. Even though the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer may twit those on this side of the House with believing in the inevitability of gradualness, I would point out, on the other hand, that the schemes now brought forward are, as a matter of fact, stimulating what we all admit to be a gradual progress. One of the fallacies into which so many people fall is that of imagining that because evolution is a fact we must proceed at a snail's pace. It is according to the will of man at what speed we do proceed, and because of that we have seen extraordinary developments in the mechanical world taking place and in the social and economic world also.
  That is why, personally, I welcome suggestions from all sides, no matter whether from Liberals, Conservatives or Labour. I am quite certain that the Lord Privy Seal will welcome those suggestions and will not look upon them in any partisan spirit. I am quite convinced that those suggestions are in accordance with the principles which I have advocated. I welcome them on that score, but, even if some hon. Members do suggest that they are indirectly or directly supporting private enterprise, still I shall not worry myself very much, because, after all, there are two points to be observed in that connection. Firstly, the more public enterprise comes on the scene in order even to assist private enterprise, and the more private enterprise is subjected to the public will, the more it is an advancement of our principle. I would, however, point out that to-day you cannot discriminate entirely between public enterprise on the one hand and private enterprise on the other. To-day they are being more and more closely knit together. In any case I am deeply
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  concerned at the present time in seeing that the total volume of wealth is increased, and that a share of that wealth is enjoyed more by the masses of the people of the country. I recognise that the problem of unemployment will be solved not merely along the very valuable lines which the Lord Privy Seal is laying down, but in a much wider and more comprehensive way. We cannot segregate this problem from other great social problems. The problem of education is intimately bound up with it, and that of international affairs too.
  That is why I deprecate any attempt to suggest that the tentative suggestions and plans put forward by the Lord Privy Seal are in any sense of the word his complete plans, or the complete policy of the Labour party for the solution of the problem. I am quite a ware that there is a certain danger sometimes in imagining that merely by what a certain bon. Member called "shifting wealth from one pocket to another" you will cure unemployment. I quite agree that in that sense you do not; you are employing Peter and at the same time plunging Paul into unemployment. On the other hand, in one sense surely you are going to cure unemployment by more unemployment, but more of the right sort. You obviously want more unemployed children and more unemployed among the aged. That will in some measure enable the able-bodied unemployed to receive work.
  I urge again that none of us here look upon the preliminary plans that the Lord Privy Seal has produced under astoundingly difficult circumstances as in any sense of the word the complete plans that he or his colleagues will put forward. All of us do believe in good will— most of us I am sure do, although we may interpret it in many way?— and all of us, I hope, have good will in our minds as well as in our hearts: and so we shall give to the Lord Privy Seal, in the suggestions that he makes, our utmost assistance, and above all faith that this beginning will be followed by greater plans still, and that in the broader sense the whole of the Labour party will go forward to deal with the unemployment problem in a comprehensive way.
  Mr. GRACE: I want to congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken on a very clear and able speech. I agree

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  with him in some measure on the point that he has made, namely, as to the danger of transferring large sums of money from the normal channels of trade and putting that money into the type of relief work that the Lord Privy Seal has in mind. The danger of that is particularly emphasised when we realise that the right hon. Gentleman has come here and has asked in a most amazing way for unlimited powers to borrow money-money which should belong to trade and should go to trade instead of being used for electrifying railways around London and so forth. We have heard of a scheme for spending £70,000,000 upon the Liverpool Street Station and upon roads and other things which, in the lifetime of any Member of this House, cannot produce any kind of wealth to the people of this country. One hon. Member opposite said that the scheme of the Lord Privy Seal was an imaginative scheme. I think the whole scheme lacks any kind of novelty or real imagination or new vision such as we expected from hon. Members opposite, having regard to their speeches during the General Election. For years past hon. Members opposite have posed as people with superior minds, and intellects above those of politicians of the past. They have cloaked themselves in a vastly superior cloak which they never show in this House. But once they get to the country they change completely.
  It is an astounding thing that, knowing that, and remembering their way of attacking the Conservative party in the last 4½ years, they should come to this House and that the only solution which the Lord Privy Seal can put forward to cure unemployment this winter is a very slightly modified form of what the last Government did for 4½ years— altering five years to three years, and so on— apart from the demand of the Lord Privy Seal for unlimited borrowing powers. I do not believe that even the patient oxen of the Liberal party will give him that power. I would ask the Lord Privy Seal one question. £25,000,000 is to be spent under paragraph I and he has powers to borrow under paragraph II. We do not know how much it will be or how far that money will go. When he has spent that money upon these vast schemes, will he or some other Member of the party opposite explain what is to
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  happen to the people in the woollen trade and the Lancashire cotton trade who are to-day unemployed or are facing unemployment in the near future? What is to happen to them when all this money has been spent?
  It is obvious that the right hon. Gentleman is not putting forward any solution of unemployment. He is not putting forward even a temporary remedy, I am convinced that the taking of this money is inflicting a greater injury upon the very people whom everyone in the House desires to help. The right hon. Gentleman had an opportunity of helping the people in the woollen trade, but he refused it. If the Government had safeguarded that industry— the people wanted it— the Government would have given real and direct help in the coming winter to the 38,000 men and women who are unemployed. But the right hon. Gentleman missed his chance, and he is going to leave those people stranded. Some of them he may induce to go on to road work or the construction of bridges, and he may take them from their own homes to some other part of England, but that will not give a single man in the woollen trade an opportunity of getting back to his real trade. The same remark applies to the cotton industry and to engineering.
  I ask the right hon. Gentleman, before he allows these vast sums to be spent, to consider seriously whether the money could not be spent far better in helping the productive trades of the country instead of spending it on what, after all, may be only a luxury. There is no question that when you approach large local authorities or large statutory concerns and dangle before them millions of money, you induce them to prepare schemes which they might otherwise not adopt. In my opinion it would be far better to leave these improvements to the normal and steady course of progress which we do make and which we were making during the past 4½ years— definitely making, in spite of the difficulties put in the way by hon. Members opposite. If we had done that I believe it would have been possible to find a far more rapid cure for unemployment.
  After a month's reflection the right hon. Gentleman comes down here, a harassed, worried, and ill-tempered man, and tells us, for the first time, of the immense

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  difficulties which he has suddenly realised to be involved in the question of unemployment— difficulties above statutory regulations, the difficulty, for example, that money spent in one direction may inflict injury in some other way. Very frankly he has put to us the difficulties which he now realises. If hon. Members opposite had been as honest on their own platforms in the month of May, a good many of them would not be here to tell the tale. During the past fortnight we have witnessed, either a sham fight or a skirmish before the battle is joined, between hon. Gentlemen opposite and their own Front Bench, because of the reckless promises which they have made to their own people. Night after night when the Government schemes are being produced, they see that those schemes are not coming up to the 100th part of what they promised. They are finding that things are getting very hot for them here, but things will get hotter still for them in their own constituencies. I do not wish hon. Members opposite any harm, but I strongly urge them, before it is too late, to give up this idea of trying to do the impossible.
  Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH: The hon. Member for Wirral (Mr. Grace) has complained that the Lord Privy Seal, after a month's reflection, announced that he had found certain difficulties. The trouble with the last Government was that after five years' reflection they could announce nothing whatever. The hon. Member complained also of a lack of novelty, and to show his own appreciation of novelty, he went back to a joke against those who sit on these benches, which is only six years old. I would not complain with regard to schemes for the relief of unemployment of the fact that each one of them taken separately has been mentioned by somebody at some time in the past 10 years. The best brains of every party have been ranging about covering the field, and trying to find the best way of putting the unemployed to work, and it is almost inevitable that the Lord Privy Seal in making his selection of the works that ought to be put in hand, will all the time be covering ground which at some time or another has been dealt with by somebody else. But that is no condemnation of what he does— either from the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer or any-body
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  else. The important thing is that after all this time— and I give all credit for it to the Lord Privy Seal— at last something is being done. Whatever complaints may be made about the schemes not going far enough, a start is being made, and we have got away from that mood of hopeless pessimism which ruled the last Government throughout its career and which pervades its supporters still, as anybody can realise after hearing the speech of the hon. Member for Wirral.
  What is his message on this subject? It is that if you take any money for the promotion of schemes of work you are necessarily taking that money away from some other kind of work. If there was a vestige of truth in that theory, industry could never advance at all, and we should have been bound to remain, as in the old days, without developing the enormous industrial system which whatever its evils may be— and we here recognise them just as much as hon. Member opposite— has yet succeeded in employing a certain important number of people According to the economic theory of the hon. Member, that has all been a dream. Every time money was borrowed or raised to start mills, to open mines, to begin any kind of work, it must necessarily have been taken away from some existing work. One realises that there must be something wrong with the hon. Member's theory, or else the whole of our economic history has been pure imagination If we went on lines like that, no progress would be made. It is because the hon. Member's Government believed in that theory that they made no progress. I myself was taken to task by the late Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade as being unpatriotic because I suggested that there was a need for action and that unemployment was a matter of national crisis. It was said to be unworthy to point it out; it was said that we employed more people than we did before the War— as if that Was a sufficient answer, with the number of unemployed increasing as time went on under that Government in spite of their Safeguarding and indeed because of their Safeguarding.
  That was the result of their work. Of course, if any evil thing happened during their tenure of office, they say it was due to the General Strike, and if anything good happens under the present Government they say it is due to the belated

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  effects of their de-rating scheme. That is a very convenient formula. It is a policy of all-in insurance covering good and bad alike. With that formula, and with their enormous majority it will be realised how hopeless it was to get any work going, and even to get any proposal listened to in the last Parliament, and those who sat in this House in the last Parliament will be prepared to accept what the Lord Privy Seal has put before us as something good in itself, and, we hope, as an earnest of a great deal more that is good to come.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: The political events of the last three or four weeks have been very astonishing, and I think the events of the last few hours in this Committee have been almost more astonishing. I have listened to practically the whole of this Debate, and it seems to me as a back bencher on this side that this is what has happened. The proposals of the Lord Privy Seal were received with a great deal of disappointment in every quarter when they first appeared. They were hailed with rapture by what hon. Members opposite, in their unregenerate days, used to call the "capitalist Press," but I never found that they were hailed with great enthusiasm by any section of the House of Commons or any other body of responsible opinion. We were all disappointed because they were inadequate to meet the requirements of the situation. The right hon. Gentleman made a speech during the Debate on the Address and another this afternoon, and they all boil down to a loan of £25,000,000 sterling. That is the main feature of the right hon. Gentleman's proposals. Nobody in his wildest moments would suggest that that policy was likely even to touch the fringe of the unemployment problem. The right hon. Gentleman made the same sort of speech to-day. Then my right hon. Friend the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer exposed the nakedness of the land. Then the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) made a certain amount of play with the inadequacy, indeed the futility, of the proposals, and, as it seemed to us on this side of the Committee, the Lord Privy Seal in a mood almost of desperation rose halfway through the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon
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  Boroughs and said in effect: "Of course we intend to go much further than this. The Committee has not begun to realise how ambitious are our projects. We are going to ask the House of Commons for leave to give what amounts to an unlimited subsidy to private industries, all over the country, to an unlimited extent and to spend all the money and then to come and ask for confirmation of that expenditure." I only say this, that that came as a. great surprise to many of us upon the back benches on this side of the House, because we had this statement in the White Paper, which we read, which I am sure the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs also read, and which appeared to us to be absolutely categorical:
  "The data on which any Estimate could be formed are not available, but in any case full Parliamentary control will be secured by the necessity for a Parliamentary Vote of the grants to be made."
  We may have been wrong, we may have been hopelessly misinformed, but I am perfectly sure that I speak for 95 percent, of hon. Members on this side of the House when I say that we were distinctly under the impression that under Paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Resolution the Government were going to lay before the House of Commons every proposal for further expenditure which was going to be made, and obtain the sanction of this House before that expenditure was made; and it certainly seemed to us that the right hon. Gentleman was so dismayed by the speeches of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Leader of the Liberal party that he more or less took a header, a desperate plunge, and launched out upon this completely new policy. The right hon. Gentleman cannot seriously think he can persuade the present House of Commons to allow him to set up a Special Committee to give an absolutely unlimited subsidy in the form of paying interest to any private industry that he happens to choose, without any total sum being stated at all, and to come along to the Houses of Commons in four or five months' time and say, "I have spent £40,000,000 or £50,000,000, or £100,000,000, or £1,000,000,000."
  The idea is absurd, and, if that is the greatest imaginative effort of which the present Government are capable, they

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  will not last long, because neither the Conservative party nor the Liberal party is going to listen to stuff of that kind. We are not going to give the Government a blank cheque for the spending of what they like in subsidising private industries in this country in the next few months, even although we are individualists and they are Socialists, and I think it is very unlikely, from what the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said to-day, that he would agree to do so either. This question will have to be considered very seriously when the Bill comes before this House on Second Reading and on the Report stage. Having raised this completely new issue, so far as we were concerned, and having drawn a new red herring across the path, I think in desperation, the Lord Privy Seal then complained because, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) was putting a series of very cogent and important questions upon this actual financial proposal, and there was not a single soul on the Treasury Bench except a Junior Lord of the Treasury, my right hon. Friend the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, and properly moved, to report Progress.
  10.0 p.m.
  Then we got the Financial Secretary to the Treasury back, and he told us that this would in fact be the case; that when we rise in 10 days' or a fortnight's time we shall have been invited to give the Government permission to spend a practically unlimited amount of money in subsidising private enterprise, and that when we come back in November we shall be told what has happened in the meantime, and asked to give our consent. That is practically what the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said. I very much doubt whether he will obtain the consent of this House to any such proposal, and I think we were fully justified, on this side, in moving to report Progress at that time, because it was a completely new issue that had been raised, and one we had never heard of before this afternoon. I do not know what the end of this particular proposal will be, but I cannot accept the statement of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that the proposal to set up a Special Committee in order to guarantee interest up to any amount to private enterprise in this country is on all fours or squares with
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  the procedure under Lord St. Davids' Committee. I recollect that a sum, I think, not exceeding £3,000,000 was definitely laid down as the maximum which could be spent when that proposal first came into operation, and I think there were many other stipulations made in subsequent Amendments to that Act; but I am certain of this, that it is untrue to say that the St. Davids Committee ever operated with the same freedom and scope as the Financial Secretary now claims for the operations of this new Committee that is to be set up by the Lord Privy Seal. If the Lord Privy Seal seriously thinks this House will give him a blank cheque in this matter, he is doomed to be disillusioned, for every hon. Member on this side would demand, and rightly demand, that a maximum sum should be fixed, beyond which this Committee could not possibly go, at any rate until we met again to discuss what had taken place during the intervening three or four months. We cannot give a blank cheque to any Government in this way.
  I think it is about time that we had a statement from the Treasury of their attitude upon the whole question of development and credit policy. We have never had a word. In fact, the hon. baronet the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster deliberately got up and said that he believed the whole question of credit policy was absolute y vital to the question of unemployment, but that he, for one, was going to make no statement on the subject and, that it was not for him to deal the intentions of the Government upon it. I think it is high time that we got a clear statement of the policy of the Government in regard to credit and currency policy generally, because they have talked enough about it during the last four and a-half years. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury himself has made speech after speech in this House denouncing the late Chancellor of the Exchequer for everything that he did, particularly in regard to the gold standard and credit restriction. He raised the question over and over again, but now that he is Financial Secretary he deliberately refuses to make any statement with regard to the policy or the opinions of the present Administration on this question.

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  The Government cannot claim for one moment that they are in any way hampered in this matter, or that they have not power, because the party which follows the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has already expressed its willingness to spend money to the tune of a couple of hundred million pounds to further schemes for unemployment. The Lord Privy Seal comes along and proposes £25,000,000. I do not think even he would claim that that would cure unemployment; but I do think we ought to have a clear statement from a representative of the Treasury or from, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who is going to reply, as to what the opinions of the Government are in regard to the whole of this question: whether they accept the point of view of the Treasury experts, that if you take, say, £100,000,000 out of the general fund of credit in this country, and apply it to municipal undertakings and so forth, you are thereby making money dearer to the rest of industry, and depriving the rest of industry of a certain amount of credit that would otherwise have been at its disposal. That is the strict, Treasury, orthodox point of view. I think the Treasury go rather too far on that line. I have always thought so; but evidently hon. and right hon. Members on the Government Bench do not take that view. We ought to know soon exactly what their opinion upon this very important question is.
  In my opinion, for what it is worth— and we all have a right to express our opinions, and I have spent some time in the Treasury— I do not think a large loan policy for the purposes of development would do any good so far as curing unemployment is concerned. But I do think that, so long as you have a falling price level, there is nothing you can do in any Department, so far as curing unemployment is concerned, that will have any effect whatsoever; and I want to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether the Government are taking any steps to prevent the continued fall in the general level of world prices, because that is important, and until you check that, nothing that you can do will have any effect in curing the real volume of unemployment in this country. Apparently, in the meantime, until we know more clearly what the intentions of the Government are in regard to Paragraphs
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  (2) and (3) of this Resolution, we have got to abandon any idea of a large credit or loan scheme to cure unemployment.
  Of course, nobody on this side of the Committee would deny that you put several million pounds down, and spent it in large works of construction, for instance, on making a road bridge across the Firth of Forth, or -a mid-Scotland canal, it would for the time being absorb a certain amount of the unemployed. Apparently, we are not to have' any grandiose schemes of that kind; and I think the decision of the Government in that respect is, on the whole, wise; but we ought to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, if he is going to reply, how quickly some of the smaller schemes will be put into operation under the new committee which will be set up. It is all very well for them to say that they are hurrying on the local authorities, that nothing is ready, that they cannot get things going in time, and that the policy of the late Government was so bad that nothing can happen yet, but I know one particular case in my constituency where a scheme has been completely prepared, and it is vital if the fishing fleet is to be properly handled during the fishing season, and there are other examples. Since the present Government came into office, a scheme for improvement of the harbour at Peterhead has been forwarded to the Treasury with a request for financial facilities, but nothing has been done yet. I do not submit for a moment that this scheme would affect the unemployment figures by a single man, but it cannot do any harm, and it will result in a definite improvement in the facilities accorded to the fishing industry.
  There are many other small schemes of this kind that could be carried on with this modest £25,000,000, which will not affect the actual numbers of the unemployed, but which are of some intrinsic value, and ought to be carried out, for they will leave the country better off, from a capital point of view, than it was before. To claim that this scheme will prove a final remedy for the problem of unemployment, or even that it will go a substantial way towards solving it— [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said it?] The Lord Privy Seal claimed that it would be of great assistance and that it would go a great way towards solving this problem. [Interruption.] I understood

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  that that was the whole object; but may we take it that he has not the slightest oonception of affecting the problem of unemployment, but merely of effecting some capital improvements in our national life? If so, that is very interesting, but it makes it all the more necessary for us upon this side of the Committee to enter an emphatic protest against the methods which hon. Members opposite use to get back to this House— methods which were very successful, for they got in very largely on this unemployment question. They promised to do something, and what they have done up-to-date is absolutely pitiful. A sum of £25,000,000 was their maximum effort, until the Lord Privy Seal became panic-stricken and had to embark hocus-pocus on a new scheme to spend an unlimited amount of cash in order to bolster up private enterprise. We had not heard of this new suggestion before. One thing that the House expected of the present administration was that they would do something drastic to handle the various problems raised by the question of unemployment insurance. Members who sat in the last House of Commons will remember that my hon. Friend Mr. Harold Macmillan raised this question on more than one occasion, and asked the Government whether it would not be possible—
  Mr. McKINLAY: On a point of Order. Are we discussing unemployment insurance?
  The CHAIRMAN: I was watching the hon. Member very carefully.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I was well aware that I was going beyond what would ordinarily be considered in order, but this Debate has covered the whole field of national, international and imperial administration, and there has been no check whatever upon any observation on any side of the Committee. However, I will not pursue the question at the moment, except to say that the £25,000,000 to which we are being asked to agree is intended largely to deal with the unemployment problem; insurance forms an important part of that problem; and the House and the country had expected the Government to display a little more imagination and zeal in tackling this particular side of the problem, because it is one of the most urgent; but the Government have not
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  attempted to deal with it at all. I will conclude by expressing the disappointment which many of us feel on this side of the Committee that the Government, after having made every sort of promise— the Lord Privy Seal may not have done it himself, but every hon. Member behind him did— for dealing with this, that and every problem, and having gained victory by doing it, have the audacity to come to the House with this miserable proposal to lend £25,000,000, which, as I say, will not touch the fringe of the problem.
  Mr. FRANK SMITH: I agree that a newcomer should speak with diffidence in this Assembly, but I must confess, that after listening very carefully for the last couple of weeks to all speeches, I am burdened with only one point of view. One would imagine that we were a company of moneylenders, and not concerned with the great problem with which we are proposing to deal. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) said that the country was expecting certain things. I am fresh from the country, and fresh from contact with the people who sent us here, people who are not indoctrinated with the atmosphere of this House, and I can assure him that the country expects one thing in particular, and that is that the House should deal with the question in a practical fashion. Up to the present, the question has been approached from the standpoint of a glorified debating society. The real thing to be borne in mind is that hundreds of thousands of people, defected, brokenhearted and despairing, sent us here to find a way out of this difficulty. For 14 days it has been mere logic chopping and hair-splitting and scoring off one another in the finest debating society manner. Hon. Gentlemen have been talking about what it will cost and about the impertinence of the Lord Privy Seal in coming here to ask for large sums of money to deal with this problem, I would like to ask those hon. Gentlemen: What is money for if it is not to use on urgent matters of this kind 2 Do let us hear less of money and more of-humanity.
  This is not a new problem. There are hon. and right hon. Gentlemen here who talk as though this was a problem of recent growth. I remember 40 years ago, when it was my privilege to have a seat among the recording angels upstairs, listening to our grand old pioneer, Keir

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  Hardie, as he sat on that third bench opposite dealing with this problem which is here with us to-day. What has been done during those 40 years to find a solution of it? It is no use anyone saying that because no solution has been found there is not a solution. There is, and the reason, it has not been found is that this honourable institution has not made up its mind to find it. This House is supposed to be the brains of the nation. When this question was discussed here 40 years ago the one man who represented the principles which we here stand for to-day told the House that there was only one way in which the problem could be solved, and that was by the application of Socialist principles. That remains true to-day, say what you will. The schemes which the Lord Privy Seal has proposed are, as he himself declared, good in their way, a step, a short step if you will, in the right direction.
  Hon. Gentleman on the other side are afraid that what they worship, private enterprise, will suffer. If private enterprise really represents what I think it represents, a greater regard for individual profit-making than for the good of the community as a whole, then private enterprise must suffer. The life and the happiness of the community outside must not be allowed to suffer if we can help it. Unemployment impossible of solution! If that be true, then the declarations of the Old Book are untrue; but I for one deny that. It is there clearly enunciated "Six days shalt thou labour," and that is the dictum of a very high authority; but hon. and right hon. Gentleman come here and say "If it interferes with private enterprise and profit-making, then we cannot follow it." I hope that this House will get right down to this business and leave off its debating society methods. If the Lord Privy Seal has made proposals which are reasonable, let us help him to carry them out, and, if they are not reasonable, let hon. Members get up and say what they believe would be preferable to these proposals. We have had four and a half years of playing with the question by a Government which had a majority of 200 by means of which they could have done anything they chose. I want to assure the Committee that if there were a 200 majority on this side of the House, instead of wasting 14 days in logic chopping, something would be done.
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  I hope we shall really get down to business and do our best to help those who are trying to do something. I come here fresh from the fighting line. I have been a long time trying to get here— that is not my fault— but it is a matter of great satisfaction to me now that I am here to find so many of those I have helped to get here. Now I am here I begin to understand why things move so slowly. I do not wonder at people outside asking what is the use of the Parliamentary machine. What is the use of it? If it keeps on working as it has been working, I say with all respect—I am still a young man in a hurry and we have a right to be in a hurry— we cannot wait. Hungry people cannot wait and people who are suffering ought not to have to wait. As far as I can help matters, I for one shall do my best to get the brake taken oft the wheels of the Parliamentary machine. I appeal to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have been here all the years I have been trying to get here, and I ask them to get a move on, and to be less critical and more practical.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The House always welcomes a new Member, and it has shown its appreciation of the speech which the hon. Gentleman has just made. When he has been here a little longer, may I venture to say, he will find that we are all moved by motives of humanity, and that what appears to him strange in our procedure is really designed to elucidate those very difficult questions with which we have to deal.
  Mr. F. SMITH: Is it a movement forward or backwards?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: If the hon. Member wishes for an answer to his question, let him read to-morrow morning the speech which he has made to-night, and ask himself, has he moved forward or backward in trying to solve this extremely difficult question? I do not want to keep the Committee long, because I understand that there is to be another speech from the Front Government Bench, and, therefore, I will deal very shortly with the first part of the proposals in the Financial Resolution. The first part deals with the right to raise £25,000,000. I regret that the condition of acceleration is being omitted. Previously, under the Trade Facilities Act, it was necessary to show that there was

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  an acceleration of work before financial assistance was given by the State, and that, undoubtedly, brought to the front, perhaps a year or two, and sometimes as much as five years, ahead of time, works that were useful to the community. I understand that that is to be abandoned, and I am sorry that that is so, because one has to remember, notwithstanding the difficulty of the subject, that there is a competition in loans, and that competition in loans means competition in employment. If you apply money to works which would normally be done by a local authority, you are not really increasing the aggregate of employment. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith) said that, if that argument were complete, it would mean that in all past times we should never have made any progress, because each loan would have been at the expense of another loan. That, however, is fundamentally wrong, because the new loans are made out of savings, and, so long as there are savings, so long as the nation is saving part of its income, it can find a loan fund, and an increasing loan fund. As we stand now, however, there is very little doubt that any large sum taken by the State for the purpose of financing any particular works will be taken at the expense of industry and of works which would otherwise be done by private enterprise.
  There is a great movement towards the rationalisation of industry, both in the coal trade and in the steel trade, and finally, no doubt, in the cotton trade. All these rationalisation schemes require capital. They require the scrapping of obsolete plant and its replacement by new plant. All of that is going to take up capital, and I would ask the Committee to remember that, if capital be taken up in that way, it is in the staple industries of the country, where skilled men will be employed, whereas, if the same money be used in extending road work or docks and harbours, the bulk of the employment to be given will be of unskilled and not of skilled men. It is extremely important, therefore, that the trades employing skilled labour should not be starved of the money that they require. One of the professors who supported the Liberal party during the election made another suggestion. He suggested that foreign loans should be discouraged,
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  and that, instead of lending money abroad, we should lend money at home, and so produce work at home. This would necessitate Government control over foreign lending. That is an extremely difficult administrative act, and I have noticed that the Government have not attempted To suggest that they would carry it out. In any event, in my judgment, it would be utterly wrong, because, again, it would be interfering with the export trade, which employs men in the skilled industries of the country, and it would be turning those men into work of a less skilled nature.
  I now want to deal with paragraphs (2) and (3) of the Resolution, and I am glad to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is here, because we shall, perhaps, get a little information to supplement the information given by the Financial Secretary. To state the Resolution shortly, the Government ace taking power to make gifts— "grants" is the word used in the Resolution— to public utility companies equivalent to the interest which those companies may pay or incur on works that they put in hand up to a period of 15 years. Under this power the Government will be able to pay, let us say, 5 percent, interest for 15 years. In other words, they are asking for power to make a subsidy or gift up to 75 percent, of the cost of works carried out by public utility companies. That is the proposal, all or any part of the interest for 15 years. Assume an interest of 5 per cent. Multiply 15 by five and you get 75. Therefore, 75 percent, of the cost of the works can be financed by the Government and a gift can be made to public utility companies of 75 percent, of the cost of the works for a period of 15 years it is true, but 75 percent, spread over 15 years can be made to public utility companies.
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The right hon. Gentleman is forgetting the present value of the money.
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I said spread over a period of 15 years, showing that I have stated it quite accurately and did not forget that the present value would be less than 75 per cent. Spread over 15 years the Government are offering a gift, without repayment, to public utility companies carried on for private profit. That is the proposal.

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  We ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury: Is there to be no limit on this? Are they to be able to do it to any extent— £50,000,000 or £100,000,000? He says, "No limit, but there will be an Estimate." I agree that sounded all right, but the Estimate is to be in the Autumn and not now, and the Government are to be entitled to commit themselves up to any extent before the Autumn. The right hon. Gentleman docs not suggest that if the Government commit themselves they are going to repudiate their commitment. Whatever may happen in other Oppositions, that will not do for the Government. If the Government commit themselves they have to fulfil their commitments, and it is precisely the same as if they had in fact handed over the money. Between now and the Autumn up to any extent the Government are taking power to make these gifts. The hon. Gentleman tried to justify it by saying that this was the normal orthodox procedure and that it had been done before. That really is not quite a fair statement of what has happened before. When the grants were made before, there was, first of all, a, limit up to £2,000,000. That was afterwards exceeded, but before it was exceeded there was a Treasury Minute laying down the terms upon which the gifts could be made. Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer tell us the term's of the Treasury Minute limiting the conditions of these gifts I May I (remind the Committee what the conditions were:
  "Works which would not be proceeded with at the present time, apart from the pressing need for relieving unemployment, are alone eligible."
  That is a perfectly proper condition. Cannot he accept that condition? This is an unemployment relief scheme. Cannot he say that he will put that into the Treasury Minute as one of the conditions of the grant? May I call attention to another:
  "Assistance will be limited to a maximum of 50 per cent., with interest at an approved rate on the expenditure as and when incurred."
  Fifty percent, only was granted by the Government, for the very reason that there was then a check upon extravagance and injudicious expenditure, because the persons who got the grants had then to make a payment out of their own funds. That was a substantial guarantee
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  antee that Government money would not be wasted. In addition, the grant will be made for a period of years which will be dependent mainly on the extent to which the work is being accelerated. If it is being accelerated by five years, by all means make the grant for five years. If it is only going to be accelerated by five years, what on earth ground is there for making a grant for 10 or 15 years? No benefit is being obtained by the unemployed. On the contrary, someone who is lucky enough to be a shareholder in a public utility company is getting a perfectly gratuitous, gift from the Government. I do not know whether this commends itself to those who wish the Socialist scheme to be put into operation. Let me call attention to one more extract which is of extreme importance:
  "In cases where dividends are not already limited by Statute, the undertaking will clearly be required to submit to such limitations as to the distribution of profits during the period of assistance as may be necessary to secure, in the opinion of the Committee, that no undue advantage is taken of its assistance."
  If you are going to make these grants to a public utility company which has a sliding scale dividend—
  Mr. THOMAS: Are you reading from the Minute of Lord St. Davids' Committee?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Yes, I am reading from the third interim report of the proceedings of the Unemployment Grants Committee, appendix A, page 17. [Interruption.] This is really a serious point. If you are making a grant of public money, you ought at least to see that somebody does not profiteer out of it. That is what I am asking the Chancellor to say. If the dividend is now already limited, as it is in the case of sliding scale public utility companies, then it does not matter, because the shareholder does not get an undue proportion. The consumers of gas or electricity, for instance, get a reduced rate, and I do not mind public money being used for that purpose. Where we get a public utility company with no restriction on dividends, we did insist, in the conditions of the grant, that they would have to make arrangements to limit their dividend during the period of subsidy. Surely, it is not asking too much of a Socialist Government to see that public money is used for unemployment

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  and not for the purpose of paying undue dividends to private shareholders. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury says that there will be an estimate brought in in the autumn, but meanwhile commitments will be made.
  I do not want to hold up work, I do not want to hold up grants, but I do want to see that the grants are made under such conditions that there is reasonable security for the public money. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he cannot answer to-night, to say that he will, when this matter comes on for further consideration, when the Bill is brought before the House, be prepared to make a statement as to the terms of the Treasury Minute under which these grants are to be made. Of course, there should be some limit on the figure. I do not want unduly to limit him. He ought not to ask the House to grant an unlimited sum. When we did it before, there was a limit of £3,000,000 on it; that may be too little, or it may be too much. I do not know what the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is upon it. He ought to give us a figure, and he ought to give us the conditions. I only desire to speak for a very short time, because I want the hon. Gentleman opposite to have an opportunity of replying, but it is really taking me longer, because there is a running commentary all the time.
  Have the Government made up their minds as to what the cost of the Liverpool Street electrification scheme is going to be, because that is a scheme to which these grants might be made between now and the autumn? We may come back in the autumn and, if the hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Duchy is right, we may find that the electrification of Liverpool Street Station, costing £75,000,000 to £100,000,000, has been made the subject of grants, and that the Government are committed beyond recall to the expenditure of the whole of the interest upon that scheme for 15 years. I do not know whether the hon. Baronet can give us a further explanation as to the amount. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal came to his rescue the other day and tried to explain his extraordinary statement that that scheme could cost £75,000,000 to £100,000,000. It would have been quite simple if the hon.
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  Baronet had confessed to the House that he had put on an extra nought and that the real figure was £7,500,000 or £10,000,000. No one would have complained of a mistake of that sort, because it is not difficult to mistake a figure; but he would not do that.
  He reproved us for challenging his figure. Then, the right hon. Gentleman came in, and said, "He did not say that at all," but, when ho was told that the hon. Baronet had said it, he replied: "Well, if you take in a lot of schemes, they might ultimately amount to £70,000,000." That is nearly £75,000,000, so he was prepared to throw in the extra five millions in order to support the hon. Baronet. In this connection, there is a curious grammatical error in the OFFICIAL EKPOET, and I am rather anxious to know whether or not it was made at the instance of the hon. Baronet. The "Times" report says:
  "If the Liverpool Street Station scheme went through, it would involve orders of between £75,000,000 to £100,000,000, very largely to the steel trade."
  I believe that is exactly what the hon. Baronet said. When that is compared with the OFFICIAL REPORT, it reads like this:
  "As a matter of fact, if the schemes connected with Liver pool Street electrification scheme goes through, it will involve. orders of between £75,000,000 and £100,000,000, very largely in the steel trade."— OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1929; col. 259, Vol. 229.]
  It looks for all the world as if the hon. Baronet, knowing that he had made a slip, just put an "s" on to the "scheme" and forgot to put the verb into the plural. Consequently, he has made the OFFICIAL REPORT commit a terrible grammatical error. I should be glad if the hon. Baronet could explain the position, and tell ns whether the Liverpool Street scheme is one of the schemes to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to apply paragraphs two and three before we come back in the autumn.
  Sir O. MOSLEY: The right hon. Gentleman has asked me a great many questions and has left ms a very short time to reply. For my part, I am more interested in over 1,000,000 unemployed, with whose lot we are striving to deal, than with grammatical differences between the right hon. Gentleman and the

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  OFFICIAL REPORT authorities. When the right hon. Gentleman, in an earlier part of his speech, asked us to save the Government and the country from the profiteer, and not to dole out money to private interests, I wished that similar injunctions had been addressed to the Government of which he was a Member for 4½ years. They are precisely the injunctions which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer should have addressed to his own back benches when they pressed him, and compelled him, to give large sums of money to the Irish Loyalists; they are the considerations which we urged upon the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer when he made large remissions of taxations to the Super-tax payer; and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that they will be far more present to the mind of the Government now in office than they were to the Government of which he was a Member, On the points which he raised I invite the right hon. Gentleman to await the Bill and then to make such suggestions, having read the text, as may occur to him. These are points which are not for one moment absent from our minds.
  This has been a most remarkable Debate. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer began by minimising the plans of the Government, by holding them up to ridicule and contempt as altogether negligible, as making no contribution whatever to the solution of unemployment, and he turned round to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) the Leader of the Liberal party, and said that in his conception there were great and grandiose schemes, immense schemes, widely conceived with bold imagination which might have done something to touch the problem. The Leader of the Liberal party was held up to us as the model of a man of bold and daring action to whom we should look for guidance. But when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party rose in his place to speak he expressed himself as horrified at the size and extent of the powers for which my right hon. Friend was asking. The man of push and go, so much more daring than we on these benches, was appalled and alarmed at the magnitude of the proposals we brought forward. Then the late Chancellor
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  of the Exchequer joined with the Leader of the Liberal party in putting the handcuffs upon people who were doing nothing in case before the House meets in the autumn we should have done too much. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down rises at the end of the Debate and re-echoes not the complaint of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer but the fears and lamentations of the Leader of the Liberal party. He too is concerned and alarmed lest under the powers of this Bill, which is so entirely negligible, by the time the House meets in the autumn we shall have raised such a vast loan and undertaken such vast commitments that the whole structure of British credit will be in danger. I leave right hon. Gentlemen opposite to decide on which leg they will stand, whether this Bill is so alarming in the powers it confers upon the Government that it is a public menace or is so small and pitiful a thing that it cannot put half a dozen men into employment.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: Both.
  Sir O. MOSLEY: I am always glad to have a clear exposition of the Conservative policy. The hon. Member has reproached me, as Chancellor of the Duchy, for not making a pronouncement upon Treasury policy. I must say that he has set me a noble example, for as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer he never hesitated to make a pronouncement of policy, somewhat to the surprise of the Treasury. I hope to deal possibly with the late Chancellor of the Exchequer's argument together with his before I sit down. What is so astonishing in this complaint that the present Government are pursuing a somewhat irregular procedure in what they suggest is the record of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs in this respect. I often felt an admiration for the administrative decision with which the right hon. Gentleman has; frequently acted. He is not a man who has been bound by an over-pure or orthodox view of financial or Parliamentary procedure when he has wanted to get things done. On this occasion we are in this Bill actually engaged in regularising the procedure of that right hon. Gentleman. When he set up the St. Davids Committee in September, 1920, how did he do it, and what was the procedure which

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  he adopted? He acted perfectly properly in the first instance, I am advised by constitutional authority, in establishing this Committee by a Treasury Minute which said that Parliament would be asked to place a sum of £3,000,000 at the disposal of the Committee for a purpose that was well known. But did he wait for Parliament to vote the money before entering into commitments? Within two days of that Treasury Minute being recorded, he sent out a circular to the local authorities offering them grants upon the basis of that Minute. And the right hon. Gentleman who joins with him, the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer— another great champion of financial and Parliamentary orthodoxy— was a member of the Government which took that arbitrary and heterodox view. There we have the Mussolini touch, if you like. Yet when these gentlemen, who got on with the job, and shook off all the outworn shibboleths under which this country has been goverend so long, when we come forward with this Bill, which is largely concerned with regularising their own procedure, and taking statutory authority for dealing with this matter, they rise in their places and pose as guardians of their principles.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: We only ask you to state the figure.
  Sir O. MOSLEY: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to put handcuffs upon us, it is quite open to him on the Committee stage to move the necessary limitation. It is open to the Liberal party as well. The right hon. Gentleman began this Debate by complaining that there was nothing in the Bill, and that nothing would be done, and now he is rising in his place and saying that we must accept a limitation because we are such terribly dangerous people. It is open to him at a later stage to take such action as may suggest itself to him when he sees the text of the Bill. To pursue this one step further, there is a further precedent, which we have not followed, which was set by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. What did he do? I have described the sending out of the circular two days after the Treasury Minute, making offers without Parliamentary sanction of any kind. In the following year he committed this House for 15 years without a Vote. It
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  could not be debated by Parliament, and it was done without statutory authority, and we are actually paying to-day commitments into which the light hon. Gentleman entered without sanction and without authority of any proper kind. In all these transactions his fellow-conspirator in to-day's Debate, the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, was joining with him when they were in office.
  There was a number of questions winch I should have liked to answer, but, unfortunately, the time is not sufficient. The right hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer said we were doing nothing and that we were reviving things which had been done before by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. In so far as that is true, we are reviving things which were smothered and destroyed by the right hon. Gentleman him self. Lord St. Davids' Committee was cut dawn by his circular from an expenditure of over £20,000,000 a year to an expenditure of £319,000 a year. It is true that he justified it by saying, "Here is a report of Lord St. Davids' Committee upon which our policy was based." We asked for the date of that report, and he said, June, 1926. That circular was issuel in the previous December of 1925. That is one of the minor debating lapses into which so great a Parliamentarian sometimes falls.
  Then the right hon. Gentleman said that there was nothing new in our colonial policy, and traversed it at greater length than I shall. He said that this proposal for the development and the rest was "all contained in our election address." Why was it not contained in the programme that the party opposite carried through in four and a half years? All through the election and at every election they talk about the Empire. In between elections we try to do something for the Empire and for the unemployed. They wave the flag, and we deliver the goods. All through the last election the walls of Birmingham were emblazoned with the features of the ex-Dominions Secretary enshrined in the folds of the Union Jack. He now tells us that in his four and a half years of office he wanted to carry such a Measure, but was prevented from doing so by the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer. These domestic differences we

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  follow with much interest. On account of them the right hon. Gentleman strove hard to stir up domestic differences in our home this afternoon. The man who is unhappily married in his own party evidently wants to create trouble in the domestic arrangements of others. We feel for the right hon. Gentleman; he has our fullest solicitude. But at the same time we do not mean that the contagious diseases of party strife should spread to the ranks of the Labour party.
  11.0 p.m.
  The right hon. Gentleman the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer put up again the great Treasury dilemma. If I may respectfully suggest it to him, a much older Parliamentarian, would it not be corerct if he took the responsibility for that policy himself? I feel that he' is not one to shelter behind the Treasury. I have always been taught that when a Minister issues a statement of policy he should accept responsibility for it, and that it is highly improper to talk about it as Treasury policy when in fact it is his own policy. But since when has the right hon. Gentleman discovered that credit has something to do with unemployment? In the spacious days when he was committing us to the present credit policy of the country, the right hon. Gentleman said that credit had no more to do with unemployment that the Gulf Stream. But four years later he learned its effects. We are now suffering from the policy upon which he embarked, and from that policy in due course this Government by its measures will escape.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

HOUSING (REVISION OF CONTRIBUTIONS [MONEY].
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient that the provisions of the Housing Acts (Revision of Contributions) Order, 1928, relating to houses subject to special conditions in the case of which contributions are to be provided under Section two of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, should cease to have effect and that the same contributions should be payable and the same provisions applicable in the case of any such houses completed after the thirtieth day of September, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine as are applicable in the case of any such houses completed on or before that date,
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and that all such additional amounts as may become payable by virtue of this Resolution should be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Greenwood, Mr. W. Adamson, Miss Lawrence, and Mr. Johnston.

HOUSING (REVISION OF CONTRIBUTIONS [MONEY].

  HOUSING (REVISION OF CONTRIOUTIONS) BILL.
  "To amend the Housing Acts (Revision of Contributions) Order, 1928, made under Section 5 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, so far as it relates to houses in respect of which contributions are payable under Section 2 of that Act," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 13.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BRITISH DELEGATION).
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Kennedy.]
Mr. MANDER: I desire to raise a matter of which I gave notice at Question Time yesterday, and that is the point whether the Legal Adviser to the Foreign Office, Sir Cecil Hurst, who has been nominated for election as Judge of the Permanent Court of International Justice, should be sent as a delegate to Geneva. I appreciate that the hands of the Government are rather tied in this matter., and that it is to a considerable extent a legacy from their predecessors, but I am quite sure that in saying what I shall say, I am voicing the opinions of a great many whose opinion carries very great weight in the affairs of the League of Nations. It has been a very unfortunate and regrettable practice for the Governments of the last few years to appoint one of their experts, a legal adviser, as a full delegate. It is not treating him fairly. He has to go out first for a Labour Government and than for a Conservative Government, and to put forward views which are to some extent contradictory, and I hope the

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right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that he does not propose to continue the procedure in future of appointing any new legal adviser as a full political member of any delegation which goes out to the League of Nations.
I would suggest that delegates should be politicians, not civil servants, who are thereby placed in a very difficult position. No one has greater admiration than I have for the great abilities of Sir Cecil Hurst and the great services which he has rendered to his country, and indeed to the world, and I am not bringing this forward in any personal sense whatever, but I think the many services he has rendered have unfitted him to a considerable extent for taking on the new duties now suggested, because it is of the greatest importance that we should keep separate in this new organisation the judicial and the political functions. If you appoint one as Judge of the Permanent Court who has been actively mixed up with the political side ever since the War, it may be that you will not be able to resist in future other nominations by other countries not so defensible on their merits as this, and that you may in due time create this situation, that there will be a feeling among the peoples of the world that the Judges of the Permanent Court are no longer entirely independent, as they are now, but that they are to some extent the mouthpieces, or under the influence, or the agents in some way of the Foreign Offices of the different countries. It may well be that that would not be so, but the Permanent Court, like Caesar's, wife, should be above suspicion, and I think you are taking a very dangerous step in appointing a man of the very high qualifications of Sir Cecil Hurst, who has been made unsuitable for the appointment by reason of the very duties which he has been carrying out for so long.
There is another difficulty, and that is that, as a Judge of the Permanent Court, Sir Cecil will be called upon to interpret Treaties which he has himself played a very great part in making. No man has done more since the War, in framing the Treaty of Versailles, the Covenant of the League, and in the Locarno Treaty, to the great advantage of the world, than Sir Cecil Hurst, and he will now have the rather invidious duty of being called
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upon to interpret international legislation which he has himself framed. I think that is another reason way an appointment of this kind is inadvisable. I do seriously appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether he cannot make another nomination, because the time has not expired for such nominations, and there must be Judges of high standing who could very well receive this appointment. If he feels, having regard to all the circumstances, and to the commitments of his predecessors, that he is not able to take that course, I hope very much that he will consider the; inadvisability of letting Sir Cecil go out as a full delegate to the League this time. It would not look well for him to be carrying on comparatively political business, as he will do up to the very last moment in the Council of the League and on the Committees, and then stepping up on to the Bench in an entirely different atmosphere. There are many actions that are legitimate and defensible, but which are not wise, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will feel that it would not be expedient for Sir Cecil Hurst to form a member of the delegation this year. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will feel that I have not brought this forward in any petty spirit, or with any desire to embarrass, but solely in the interests of what I conceive to be the interests of that great hope of mankind, the League of Nations.
Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: I wish to detain the House for a moment because this is a matter on which I may reflect a considerable body of opinion outside, which is not new to this matter, as some hon. Members are, and was given considerable attention to it. I want to ask my right hon. Friend whether I am correctly informed that the period of nomination to this high judicial office has not closed, that is to say, chat the nomination which the late Government contemplated and announced does not close the matter so far as His Majesty's present advisers are concerned. That is a question of fact. I wish to state this view, which weighs with persons of considerable service in the nation outside. It is felt that whatever nomination is made to this high judicial tribunal should be one worthy of the dignity of Great Britain. I make no reflection on the distinguished public servant to whom my

397
hon. Friend opposite has referred. I should be the last to make any comment on his well-known abilities, for I have had the advantage of following them for a good many years. But I want to suggest to my right hon. Friend and the Government that in coming to a conclusion on this matter— I understand that the period of coming to a conclusion is not closed— they will make an appointment which will conduce in the most worthy way to the dignity of the country.
This tribunal is the greatest tribunal in the world. To it are committed the cardinal judicial issues of the world. It is an essential part of the equipment of every member of that tribunal that he should have had judicial experience. I venture, therefore, to press upon my right hon. Friend that they should consider all available candidates of judicial experience before they resort to a nomination which is one connected with the public service of an executive character. I ask them not to lower the prestige of this country in the eyes of the world by nominating to this supreme judicial tribunal anyone, however distinguished in other walks of life, who cannot bring to the tribunal that special judicial experience which the rest of the world expects to find in the representative of Great Britain. Therefore, I press my right hon. Friend not to hurry this matter, because he finds it in the office left by his predecessor, but before he follows a course which is subject to a good deal of criticism outside the House, he will satisfy himself that there are no high judicial persons who can bring to this office the special equipment required. I venture, with the greatest possible respect, to press that special consideration upon my right hon. Friend.
The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Arthur Henderson): Two points have been raised and I will deal very shortly with both. The first is as to whether the chief legal adviser to the Foreign Office should have been selected on this occasion as a delegate to the Assembly of the League of Nations. The chief legal adviser has been selected to go to the Assembly and not, as my hon. Friend suggested, to the Council. He will have no association with the work of the Council this year. As I stated in reply to a question yesterday. Sir Cecil Hurst has been a representative
398
of this country to the Assembly of the League ever since the League was formed. I think that in itself was a very substantial reason why on this occasion he should have been continued as one of the Delegation. But there was another reason.
At the last Assembly a certain amount of work was given to Sir Cecil Hurst and to others that had to be carried forward and has not yet been completed. This work is in connection with the codification of international law, the preparation for a conference on this subject to be held next year, the revision of the Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, and a special conference in connection with the adherence of the United States to the Permanent Court. All this work has been very well advanced. It is to be hoped that it will be completed during the early stages of the coming Assembly.
Many of the objections raised by the hon. Member opposite were present to my mind when I considered the delegation for this year. After weighing them all up I came to the conclusion that in order to enable him to give his valuable assistance to the completion of the work in hand, I should, at any rate, until the time when that work was completed, ask Sir Cecil Hurst to continue to be one of our representatives. I would like to say, however, before passing from that point, that the fact that he has acted so long should not be taken to be a precedent that would always be followed, and should he succeed in securing election to the Court the way will be much easier for me to act differently on another occasion.
The second point is as to whether one who has been associated with the work of the League in the capacity even in which Sir Cecil Hurst has acted for a number of years is qualified to act in connection with the Court. The hon. Member who raised the question reminded us that his nomination might be a legacy from our predecessors. I am not going to throw responsibility for this nomination on my predecessor. It is quite true that the nomination bad been made, and if I wanted to act in a different way I should have been compelled to withdraw the nomination. I was not prepared to take that responsibility. The more I thought of it the more I was driven to the conelusion,

399
in view of the fact that not only had' the representative of this country received a nomination from the previous Government but also, I am happy to say, received a nomination from other Governments, that it would have been placing him in a most invidious position if I had proceeded to withdraw his nomination. It is quite true that in the progress of years he has been placed in a very difficult position. I remember being with Sir Cecil Hurst at the Assembly in 1924, and a jolly good and faithful colleague he made. I have not a shadow of doubt that, had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) been present, he would have been prepared to have said that all the years Sir Cecil Hurst had been one of his colleagues at the Assembly he had been equally loyal and faithful. That only goes to show how faithful a civil servant can be towards whatever Government may be in power.
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Having said that I am not going to take his appointment as a precedent always to be followed, having said that he had received the nomination of the previous Government and other Governments, I, do not know that there is anything more that I can add. I am quite satisfied that he has as high a standing among the Governments of the countries associated with the League as any judge that could have been selected by the present Government. I am quite certain that his knowledge of the working of the League cannot be surpassed, and it would be difficult, in my judgment, to equal it. For all these reasons I hope that my hon. Friend will accept it from me that I did what I did in the interests of the work which Sir Cecil Hurst had to undertake.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

UNEMPLOYMENT.
  COLONDAL DEVELOPMENT (SWAZILAND).
  COLONDAL DEVELOPMENT (SWAZILAND).
  NAVAL EQUIPIMENT (BEITISH MANUFACTURE).
  NAVAL EQUIPIMENT (BEITISH MANUFACTURE).
  BENEFIT.
  BENEFIT.
  COURTS OF REFEREES.
  COURTS OF REFEREES.
  TRANSFER OF WORKERS.
  TRANSFER OF WORKERS.
  INSURANCE FUND (ADMIM ISTRATION).
  INSURANCE FUND (ADMIM ISTRATION).
  CIRCULARS (EXCHANGES).
  CIRCULARS (EXCHANGES).
  YOUNG PERSONS.
  YOUNG PERSONS.
  EXCHANGES (COST).
  EXCHANGES (COST).
  GRIMSBY.
  GRIMSBY.
  BRISTOL.
  BRISTOL.
  JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS.
  JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS.
  TEADE BOARDS ACTS.
  TEADE BOARDS ACTS.
  ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE (STAFF, ANNUAL HOLIDAY).
  ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE (STAFF, ANNUAL HOLIDAY).
  NEW AIRSHIPS (TROOP CARRYING CAPACITY).
  NEW AIRSHIPS (TROOP CARRYING CAPACITY).
  MILITARY POWERS (EXPENDITURE).
  MILITARY POWERS (EXPENDITURE).
SCOTLAND.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  FISHING INDUSTRY.
  RURAL WORKERS' APPROVED SOCIETY.
  RURAL WORKERS' APPROVED SOCIETY.
  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (GRADE DESIOSATION MARK).
  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (GRADE DESIOSATION MARK).
  PHYSICALLY DEFECTIVE CHILDREN.
  PHYSICALLY DEFECTIVE CHILDREN.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
POST OFFICE.
  FACILITIES, NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND.
  FACILITIES, NORTH-EAST SCOTLAND.
  ENVELOPBS, METAL FASTENERS.
  ENVELOPBS, METAL FASTENERS.
  ATLANTIC TELEPHONE SERVICE.
  ATLANTIC TELEPHONE SERVICE.
  PICTURES (TELEGEAPHIC TRANSMISSION, LONDON—BERLIN).
  PICTURES (TELEGEAPHIC TRANSMISSION, LONDON—BERLIN).
  RURAL SUB-POSTMASTERS (EEMUNERATION).
  RURAL SUB-POSTMASTERS (EEMUNERATION).
  DELIVERIES, KIRBY MISPERTON.
  DELIVERIES, KIRBY MISPERTON.
  RURAL TELEPHONES, EAST FIFE.
  RURAL TELEPHONES, EAST FIFE.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, ISLE OF MAN.
  TELEPHONE SERVICE, ISLE OF MAN.
TRANSPORT.
  LOOE-POLPERRO ROAD (WORKMFN'S WAGES).
  LOOE-POLPERRO ROAD (WORKMFN'S WAGES).
  NEW BRIDGES, RICHMOND AND HAMPTOX COURT.
  NEW BRIDGES, RICHMOND AND HAMPTOX COURT.
  ROAD TRAFFIC BILL.
  ROAD TRAFFIC BILL.
  COLNBROOK BY-PASS ROAD.
  COLNBROOK BY-PASS ROAD.
  LOWER THAMES TUNNEL.
  LOWER THAMES TUNNEL.
  CROSS-RIVEH COMMUNICATIONS, NORTH AND SOUTH SHIELDS.
  CROSS-RIVEH COMMUNICATIONS, NORTH AND SOUTH SHIELDS.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT.
  COASTWISE SHIPPING.
  COASTWISE SHIPPING.
  COMMENCEMENT OF ACT.
  COMMENCEMENT OF ACT.
  FISHING INDUSTRY (EIAILWIAY CAERIAGE CHARGES).
  FISHING INDUSTRY (EIAILWIAY CAERIAGE CHARGES).
  BRITISH ELECTRICAL CONCERNS (SALE TO AMERICANS).
  BRITISH ELECTRICAL CONCERNS (SALE TO AMERICANS).
  EMPIRE MARKETING BOARD.
  EMPIRE MARKETING BOARD.
  TRINIDAD (OIL COMPANIES).
  TRINIDAD (OIL COMPANIES).
  HONG KONG (MUI TSAI SYSTEM).
  HONG KONG (MUI TSAI SYSTEM).
  GRENADA (JUSTICES OF THE PEACE).
  GRENADA (JUSTICES OF THE PEACE).
  ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (STATISTICS).
  ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (STATISTICS).
  SPEED BOATS (REGULATIONS).
  SPEED BOATS (REGULATIONS).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (INQUIRY).
  COTTON INDUSTRY (INQUIRY).
  JAPAN (EMBARGO ON GOLD).
  JAPAN (EMBARGO ON GOLD).
  FORESTRY COAIMISSION (WORKERS' WAGES).
  FORESTRY COAIMISSION (WORKERS' WAGES).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (EEFEESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (EEFEESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  CRUELTY TO CHILDREN AND ANIMALS.
  CRUELTY TO CHILDREN AND ANIMALS.
  BIDDING AGREEMENTS ACT.
  BIDDING AGREEMENTS ACT.
  PERFORMING ANIMALS (ALIEN EXHIBITORS).
  PERFORMING ANIMALS (ALIEN EXHIBITORS).
  LICENSING STATISTICS.
  LICENSING STATISTICS.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE (ACCIDENTS).
  METROPOLITAN POLICE (ACCIDENTS).
HOUSING.
  TOWN PLANNING.
  TOWN PLANNING.
  RURAL AREAS.
  RURAL AREAS.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  BREAD (WRAPPING).
  BREAD (WRAPPING).
  BLIND PERSONS' PENSIONS.
  BLIND PERSONS' PENSIONS.
  DEAF PERSONS.
  DEAF PERSONS.
CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCE.
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCE.
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN.
  DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN.
  POOR LAW RELIEF (TEST WORK).
  POOR LAW RELIEF (TEST WORK).
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (CLINICS).
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (CLINICS).
COAL INDUSTRY.
  MINES (HOURS OF WOEK).
  MINES (HOURS OF WOEK).
  NOTTINGHAMSHIEIS MINERS (UNION MEMBERSHIP).
  NOTTINGHAMSHIEIS MINERS (UNION MEMBERSHIP).
  HORSES AND PONIES (STATISTICS).
  HORSES AND PONIES (STATISTICS).
  MECHANICAL HAULAGE.
  MECHANICAL HAULAGE.
  SELLING AGENCIES.
  SELLING AGENCIES.
  ANTHRACITE.
  ANTHRACITE.
  ACCIDENTS IN MINES.
  ACCIDENTS IN MINES.
BRITISH ARMY.
  BANDS (CIVIL ENGAGEMENTS).
  BANDS (CIVIL ENGAGEMENTS).
  COMMISSIONS (RANKS).
  COMMISSIONS (RANKS).
  EX-SOLDIERS (CIVIL EMPLOYMENT).
  EX-SOLDIERS (CIVIL EMPLOYMENT).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, I should like to give notice to the House at the earliest moment of a matter which I have had an opportunity of discussing with the Leader of the Opposition, although he is not in a position to give a definite opinion. Certain Bills, which we hope will be read a first or second time to-day, will be put down for next Thursday because it is of importance that they should proceed as quickly as possible. It may be that they could be dealt with in another place this week, which would be very desirable. Therefore I propose to put down a Motion in respect of those Bills to suspend Standing Order No. XXXIX—the usual Motion. Of course if any difficulty should arise, or there is any matter which requires further discussion, I should not press the Motion in connection with any particular Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the way in which the Leader of the House has been good enough to make that announcement makes it impossible for us to say anything except that we are very much obliged to him. At the same time I think I ought to say that I was not aware, until he was good enough to tell me a few minutes ago, that this Motion was going to be made. It would require a little time for your Lordships to look at the Bills before we commit ourselves to suspending our usual procedure for the purpose of hurrying them forward.
LORD PARMOOR: Certainly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I refer specially to the Arbitration (Foreign Awards) Bill, which we are to discuss directly. Since the noble and learned Lord opposite spoke to me I have been able to make inquiry and I find that there is some disposition to require delay between the Second Reading and the Committee stage of this Bill, as it deals with a very intricate legal point which it
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may be necessary for lawyers to consider before we accept it in the exact form in which it stands. I do not anticipate any difficulty, but my noble and learned friend who sits beside me [Viscount Hailsham] will no doubt take part in the debate directly and will give his view on that point. I should not like your Lordships to be committed to having to take that Bill as rapidly as the noble and learned Lord suggested just now. Since I am on my legs, perhaps I may be allowed to ask, for the convenience of your Lordships, if the noble and learned Lord can tell us when it is hoped that the adjournment will take place, and also whether he can tell us now or perhaps to-morrow—I do not know if he will be in a position to do so—when the House is likely to re-assemble after the Recess.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not think that I shall be in a position to-morrow to communicate the date when the House is likely to reassemble after the Recess, but I will give this House the first intimation that can be given as to that date. With regard to the date of the adjournment, the view of the optimists is that the adjournment will take place at the end of next week. That, I think, is rather an optimistic outlook; but I hope that it will not be delayed beyond the week after next in any event.
VISCOUNT PEEL: May I ask the noble and learned Lord if he can tell us when he is going to take the Second Reading of the Government of India (Aden) Bill?
LORD PARMOOR: Next Thursday.

INVERNESS WATER AND GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Inverness water and gas; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to the London, Midland and Scottish Railway; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Leith harbour and docks; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

DUNFERMLINE AND DISTRICT TRACTION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Sections 8 and 9 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Dunfermline and district traction; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (ADEN) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons endorsed with a Certificate from the Speaker that it is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; and to be printed.
GRAND JUNCTION COMPANY BILL.
Read 2a.

DERBY CORPORATION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to this Bill, I have now to move its Second Reading and it may be convenient if I mention that I have a letter from the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, with reference to the next Order upon the Paper—[that in the event of the Bill being committed certain instructions should be given to the Committee]—saying that he does not intend to move that Motion. The Motion illustrates certain negotiations that have been going on for the last few days. I understand that, since it was put down, agreement has been reached by all the parties interested and a clause will be introduced in Committee to carry out that agreement. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That, the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.

DARLINGTON CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order).
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order).

ARBITRATION (FOREIGN AWARDS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, in spite of that which has been indicated as a

95
possibility by the noble Marquess opposite regarding the future of this Bill, I regard it, and I think the noble and learned Viscount opposite will regard it, as neither a contentious nor a controversial Bill, though it may be that, as a matter of drafting, some alteration may be required in its wording. The Bill was read a first time last week and it has been in the hands of the noble and learned Viscount opposite since that date, and, no doubt, he will tell us later what his views are. I can only say that it is desired to meet noble Lords in every possible way in order that the Bill may pass, as it is really an agreed Bill and, even in regard to its drafting, there is nothing of substance that is in dispute. The Bill of which I am now proposing the Second Beading is a further step in the direction of improving facilities for international trade. It was framed under the last Government, I think practically in its present form—I may be wrong about that, but I am not aware of any alteration since—and, as I have said, in my opinion it can be neither contentious nor controversial.
In 1923 an International Protocol on Arbitration Clauses was devised at Geneva, which provided that signatory States should recognise agreements on the part of their respective subjects to submit to arbitration disputes arising out of commercial contracts. So far as this country is concerned effect was given to that Protocol by the Arbitration Clauses (Protocol) Act, 1924. The arrangement, however, did not go far enough, particularly as regards the enforcement of arbitration; so, as your Lordships will notice, Part 1 of this Bill is entitled" Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards. "The object is that these foreign arbitral awards, admittedly of great value, should be easily enforced here and elsewhere in the interests of both parties to an arbitration dispute. The World Economic Conference, under the Chairmanship of M. Theunis, in March, 1927, recommended the adoption by all countries of recourse to arbitration, and it was in pursuit of this that the Economic Committee of the League devised a new document. This new document is the Convention attached to the present Bill and the signatories to which agree to enforce in their own Courts arbitration awards made in due form in
96
other signatory countries. This project was considerably revised as a result, largely, of suggestions from His Majesty's then Government, the late Government in this country, and it was adopted by the Assembly of the League in September, 1927.
On December 7 in that year the then Foreign Minister, Sir Austen Chamberlain, speaking at Geneva on behalf of His Majesty's Government, said that he had signed the Convention on the previous day. Then he added that—
" in order to carry out the Convention the British Government would need Parliamentary authority, and proposed to promote legislation at the earliest convenient moment."
As matters have turned out, this seems to be the earliest convenient moment—it is impossible to foresee the future—and the fact that I am introducing this Bill rather than a representative of the present Opposition is merely a result which could not have been foreseen. This is, in a direct sense, a continuity of former policy.
If your Lordships will look at the Bill itself, you will see that the preamble states in short language what I have already stated. It is as follows:—
Whereas a Convention, set out in the Schedule to this Act, on the Execution of Arbitral Awards was on the twenty-sixth day of September, nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, signed at Geneva on behalf of His Majesty:
" And whereas it is expedient that such provisions should be enacted by Parliament as will enable the said Convention to become operative in the United Kingdom: Now, therefore, be it enacted as follows:—"
I propose shortly to state what is the purport of the various clauses in this Bill. As I have said, their drafting has been very carefully considered, but if any amendment is necessary, we shall receive any proposal in a perfectly friendly spirit, and if it appear to be an improvement it will certainly be adopted.
The first clause says:
" This Part of this Act applies to any award made after the twenty-eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-four—"
That date is really fixed by the provisions of the 1923 Protocol and the 1924 Agreement which brought it into operation after there had been two ratifications. Therefore the date on which it came into

97
operation was July 28, 1924. I do not think it is necessary to read more of Clause 1 until we come to subsection (2), which says:—
" The Governments to which this Part of this Act applies are those Governments in respect of which His Majesty may by Order in Council declare the said Convention to be in force."
The object of that is that there shall be no doubt as to the areas within which these commercial arbitrations will be implemented and enforced under the provisions of this Bill, and that everyone shall have due notice of what they are.
Under Clause 2 they are subject to enforcement under one of the two methods which are recognised by the law of this country, particularly since the Arbitration Act, 1889—either by action or under the provisions of Section 12 of the Arbitration Act, 1889. The procedure here, which I assume will be the procedure adopted under the terms of the Act, is that if any substantial difficulty is involved the procedure will be by action, and if there is no difficulty whatever then the arbitral award will be enforced in the same way as a judgment or order by an Order made under the recognised procedure adopted in this country. With regard to subsection (2) of Clause 2, the intention is that the award shall be regarded as valid, not only between the parties but in its general purport, and therefore, as regard any proceedings, it may be utilised
" by way of defence, set off or otherwise, in any legal proceedings in England, and any references in this Part of this Act to enforcing a foreign award shall be construed as including references to relying on an award."
It may be used for purposes of defence as well as for purposes of obtaining rights which have been claimed.
Clause 3 sets out, I think quite clearly, the conditions for enforcement of these foreign awards. I do not think that anything which is not quite clear turns upon Clause 3 until we come to subsection (3) of that clause, which says:—
"If a party seeking to resist the enforcement of a foreign award proves that there is any ground other than the non-existence of the conditions specified in paragraphs (a) (b) and (c) of subsection (1) of this section, or the existence of the conditions specified in paragraphs (b) and (c) of subsection (2) of this section, entitling him to contest the validity of the award.—"
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these are specified reasons for which you may test the validity of the award. The subsection continues:—
"—the Court may, if it thinks fit, either refuse to enforce the award or adjourn the hearing until after the expiration of such period as appears to the Court to be reasonably sufficient to enable that party to take the necessary steps to have the award annulled by the competent tribunal."
I think that, in order to safeguard the position in every direction, that is necessary, and if the noble and learned Viscount opposite will take the reference to Article 3 of the Convention itself he will find how closely the provision of Article 3 is followed in the provision which I have just read.
Clause 4 sets out the evidence which must be produced before the Court in order that an award may be enforced. I do not think there can be any difficulty about that. Clause 5 contains a definition which is essential. The award is known as a "final award" in this country when it has been finally made, although there may be difficulties ahead as regards its enforcement. The clause says:—
"For the purposes of this Part of this Act an award shall not be deemed final if any proceedings for the purpose of contesting the validity of the award are pending in the country in which it was made."
I think that is quite essential as a definition of what we mean by "final award," and it also indicates a distinction by the way in which that expression is used in this arbitration proposal as against the way it would be used in ordinary procedure in this country. Then there are saving clauses, on which I think really nothing turns. In Clause 7 we have the application of this Part of the Act to Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is a matter for the Scottish Office and those who advise Northern Ireland, and the provisions incorporated here have been incorporated under their advice and after their full consideration.
That is the whole of this Bill as far as Part I is concerned. May I pause there for a moment? I hope the noble and learned Viscount will agree with me that there is nothing either contentious or controversial in this. If there is any improvement as a matter of drafting which he would care to bring to our notice I can assure him at once that it will have every consideration, and I hope

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it will be settled by arrangement between the Parties. Part II is simply a slight alteration in the Arbitration Clauses (Protocol) Act, 1924, by adding the words "or that there is not in fact any dispute between the parties with regard to the matter agreed to be referred." If there is no dispute as regards the matter agreed to be referred there is really no arbitration in the sense in which we use the term, and there can be no valid arbitral award. I hope the explanations I have given are sufficient. If any questions are asked I will certainly endeavour to supplement what I have said. I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Parmoor.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, the Leader of the House, has moved the Second Reading in a speech of a most disarming and conciliatory nature, and he is quite right in saying that the Bill in principle is not in any sense a contentious or controversial measure. Either in its exact form or in substantially the present form it was in draft when the late Government were in office and, as he truly says, it would have fallen to my lot to bring forward this or some similar Bill if the circumstances of the last General Election had not intervened. But when the noble and learned Lord tolls your Lordships that this Bill is a further step to improve the facilities for foreign trade he is using somewhat euphemistic language. The fact is that this Bill is a Bill to remedy the dreadful handicap which was imposed upon our foreign trade by the Convention of 1923, and the circumstances which render this Bill necessary are a signal example of the folly of those misguided enthusiasts who will rush into international conventions regardless of their effect upon trade interests at home, and who have a sort of idea that nothing but good can come from Geneva and are apt to inflict serious injury upon vital interests of this country through their excessive zeal.
The facts are these. As your Lordships know, the great bulk of our commercial contracts made in the City of London contain what is known as an arbitration clause, that is to say, a clause which provides that in the event of dispute the matter shall be referred to arbitration; and when the contract is made between
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two British subjects there is ample protection afforded by our legislation. The Courts will stay an action brought in defiance of an arbitration clause unless some good reason is shown to the contrary; and an arbitration award when it is made can be enforced by execution. But when a commercial contract was made between a British subject in the City with a foreigner a different position was created. No foreign country recognises or will enforce the award made in any other country, that is to say no foreign country would enforce, for instance, a British award; and no foreign country would before 1923 recognise the existence of an arbitration clause as a bar to an action.
The consequence was that if a dispute arose between a British merchant and a foreigner upon a contract made in the ordinary British form, if the British merchant obtained an award in an arbitration he was no nearer obtaining satisfaction because no foreign Court would recognise that award. On the other hand, if a foreigner had a claim under such a contract against a British subject he could, notwithstanding the arbitration clause, sue in the Court of his own country, which would not recognise the arbitration clause as a bar. Those were the two disadvantages which existed in the case of an arbitration clause in a contract between an Englishman and a foreigner. In 1923 a Convention was made at Geneva by which it was provided that the States which became parties to the Convention would stay any action brought in defiance of an arbitration clause between their own subjects and the subjects of another State which was a party to the Convention; and that removed the difficulty that a foreigner was able to sue an Englishman in his own country upon a contract with an arbitration clause and that there would be no stay.
So far, then, a grievance was removed. But a far greater difficulty was created by the Convention. Before 1923, although the British merchant when he had a claim against a foreigner could not enforce an award when he had obtained it, he could always bring an action in the Courts of the foreigner's own country and obtain judgment which, of course, could be enforced against the foreigner. By virtue of the Convention of 1923, he was no longer able to bring

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such action because the Convention provided that the State was bound to stay an action brought when there was an arbitration clause in the contract. The result was that if an Englishman had a contract with a foreigner containing an arbitration clause and the foreigner failed to implement his contract, the Englishman, by virtue of the 1923 Convention, was left absolutely without remedy. He could not sue on the award if he got it because the foreign country would not recognise the award, and he could not sue on the original cause of action because the Convention compelled the foreign Court to stop the action. The result, therefore, of this well-meant effort to cure the difficulty that the foreigner could sue in defiance of an arbitration clause, was to create the much graver ill that the British subject was absolutely helpless against any foreigner, unless he had assets in this country, in regard to such a contract.
That was an impossible state of affairs, and it was to remedy that difficulty that the Convention which is the foundation of the present Bill was entered into in 1927. I confess that the Convention does not seem to me in every way satisfactory. There was representing this country a very eminent lawyer, a friend of my own, Mr. Claughton Scott, who did all that could be done; but naturally, as in every international convention you have to give as well as take, he was not able to get the Convention into a form that was altogether satisfactory. To my mind, at least, its language is somewhat obscure and it is, I believe, for that reason that the present Government have done what the late Government intended to do; that is to say, they have not merely asked Parliament to pass an Act giving effect to the Convention but have set out in the Bill what they believe the effect of the Convention to be. I have the best reason for knowing that Mr. Claughton Scott was invited to interpret the Convention as well as he could, and that the Bill represents his view of what the Convention was intended to effect. The Convention itself uses foreign terms for which we have no exact equivalent in English, and it uses English terms in a sense contrary to that in which they are used in England. The noble and learned Lord gave an instance when he
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referred to the term "final award." What is meant by "final award" in English law is something quite different from what is meant by "final award" in the Convention.
However, the Bill is the best that Mr. Claughton Scott could obtain and, as the noble and learned Lord has said, the Convention provides that under certain conditions British awards will be enforceable in foreign countries which become parties to the Convention. In exchange we undertake to enforce in this country foreign awards made in such countries. One curious result is that an award made in a foreign country by a foreign arbitrator is actually in a better position than a foreign judgment. A foreign judgment can only be enforced in this country by action; a foreign award will be enforceable under this Bill by execution upon the person against whom the award is made. I do not know that this is altogether satisfactory or desirable; still, that was one of the points we had to concede.
I do not suggest that this House or Parliament could or should do anything except pass this Bill, but I think it needs careful consideration by the legal talent in which this House particularly is so very rich, because your Lordships will appreciate that it is important not only that the Bill shall be clear in the use of the legal phrases it contains, but also that the Bill shall carry out the Convention; otherwise, we shall have it said in foreign countries that we have not carried out the Convention and, therefore, our awards will not be enforceable in other countries which become parties to the Convention. Whether it carries it out accurately is a matter which requires very careful study. I hope, therefore, that the noble and learned Lord opposite will give a reasonable opportunity to the lawyers in this House to consider the terms of the Bill, and I hope that some of my noble and learned friends will apply themselves to that task. If they had a week or some reasonable time to consider whether the Bill does carry out what it is designed to do, unless there were Amendments, speaking for myself, I should have thought the other stages might then be taken almost at once. But I think there ought to be a reasonable interval allowed to ensure that there are not alterations to be made in Committee.

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In regard to Part II of the Bill, which amends the Act of 1924, that again is an illustration of the same unfortunate result of the too hasty and too enthusiastic acceptance of these international conventions. Under our own Arbitration Act, when there is an arbitration clause the Court has a discretion in staying an action, and it will stay an action brought in defiance of an arbitration clause unless some reason is shown to the contrary. Under the Convention the Court has no discretion. It has merely to be said that there is an arbitration clause and there-upon the Court can do nothing but stay the action, although there may be no real dispute between the parties and the defence may be purely dilatory. That was found to be so very inconvenient that a Committee was set up over which, I think, Mr. Justice Mackinnon presided. That Committee recommended that a stay should only be imposed where there was a real dispute between the parties; that is to say, that some really substantial cause was shown why the person stayed should have a question to try. It has been thought, I gather, that it is not possible to go as far as that because you would then be breaking the Convention. Therefore, all that Part II does is to say that where there is any dispute between the parties there must be a stay, and the flimsiest dispute which any dilatory defendant may choose to raise will in itself be sufficient ground, if this be passed, for compelling the Court to stop the action, however ill-founded the defence or the matters alleged to be in dispute seem to the Court to be. I cannot think that is altogether satisfactory. At the same time, I recognise that the Convention of 1923 renders it difficult, perhaps impossible, for the Government to go as far as Mr. Justice Mackinnon recommended, and to compel the defendant to show that there is a substantial dispute with regard to the matters upon which the action is brought.
I have ventured to trouble your Lordships with these observations not, as I hope the noble and learned Lord will believe, with any desire to criticise the Bill he has introduced, which, as I have said, I should have had to introduce myself in other circumstances, and not with any desire to criticise any individual, but only because it seems to me that the difficulty which this Bill has to remove
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is a very signal and very salutary example of the danger of ill-considered international conventions and of the handicap which may be imposed upon our trade by entering into those conventions without a full consideration of the reactions and repercussions which such conventions might have, and because I hope that the lesson may be taken to heart by some who are at present a little too apt, I think, to regard anything as desirable as long as it is labelled international.
LORD ATKIN: My Lords, I do not desire to venture upon a criticism of anything that has already taken place, but to ask a question or two about the scope of this Bill, concerning which doubts have been raised in my mind by what has been said by the noble and learned Lord President and the noble and learned Viscount. The difficulties that have arisen have been, as the noble Viscount said, due to the fact that foreign Governments, as a rule, have been unable, or unwilling, to pass legislation which enables their Courts to enforce foreign awards, or indeed even foreign judgments. They are very jealous of the exclusive jurisdiction of their own Courts over disputes, and this Convention has provided that the contracting parties will enforce not foreign judgments but foreign awards. The result of that will be that in some countries, when the Convention is thoroughly carried out in those countries, there will presumably have been legislation which will enable the Courts of each country to enforce an English award; but one would have thought that at any rate the intention of the Convention was that such rights as are given by the Convention should be reciprocal. I find it difficult to conceive that we are asked in this country to enforce the awards of a foreign country where that foreign country is not in itself prepared to enforce our awards, and I wish to know whether the provisions of this Bill are such as to make the obligations reciprocal?
The only clause that I can see in the Bill dealing with that is Clause 1 (2) which states that—
"The Governments to which this Part of this Act applies are those Governments in respect of which His Majesty may by Order in Council declare the said Convention to be in force."

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I gather that the Convention would be in force as soon as it is ratified, and each party that has ratified a Convention could claim that the other parties who had ratified the Convention should perform it, but ratification is one thing and legislation to carry out the obligations which are imposed by the act of ratification seems to me to be a different thing. It has been known to happen that a country has entered into a convention and ratified it, and yet at the same moment has not proceeded to legislate so as to give effect to the convention which has been ratified. If it is intended only by Order in Council to apply this Bill to such countries as have, by their legislation, taken steps to see that an English award will be enforced in that country, well and good; but if we are asked here and now to enforce foreign awards in respect of any country which does not give reciprocal conditions to us, I venture to think this House should think several times before it embarks upon that legislation. It really was merely for the purpose of putting that query that I rose to address your Lordships.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, this may or may not be a controversial Bill. I and other noble Lords only received the Bill when we came down to the House this afternoon. That applies also to the two following Bills, and it applied at the end of last Session to two Bills emanating from the Government Bench. I hope that the Socialist Government are not going to make a practice of keeping noble Lords from getting their Bills till they arrive here.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, in answer to the noble Viscount who spoke last, I may say that the Bill has certainly been circulated in print for some time. I do not know whether he gives a general order at the Printed Paper Office that all Bills should be sent to him when they are printed.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Yes.
LORD PARMOOR: Of course if he has not given an order of that kind he would not have received the Bill until he came down to the House. But I am told it has been printed for some time, and I certainly received it some time ago. It is a week since it was read a first time and ordered to be printed.
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As regards the points raised by the noble and learned Viscount opposite [Viscount Hailsham] and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, I should like to say one or two words. I do not want to embark upon the so-called shortcomings of international arrangements. That is a point upon which I dare say I should differ from the noble and learned Viscount opposite, but I do not think it is really relevant to the matter we are considering at the present moment. The Convention of 1923 was, I think, both signed and ratified while he was in a very prominent place as a legal adviser to the Government in power. It was in 1923 that that was done. I do not want to go back on questions of that kind; it is never really any use to do so. The point now is whether the Bill as at present proposed does bring about what both the late Government and ourselves desire, a fair method—I use the phrase purposely—a fair method as between ourselves and other countries of bringing into force this later Convention signed in 1927 on behalf of the late Government by their Foreign Secretary. On a subsequent occasion he gave a pledge that suitable legislation would be introduced in this country in order that ratification might follow. So soon as this Bill becomes law, ratification will follow, and the matter will become binding between the countries.
I think the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, has raised, deserves further consideration. I agree with him that we want, as far as possible, to ensure what he properly called reciprocity. I think it really is assured by subsection (2) of Clause (1). I mean the safeguard is that it applies only after an Order in Council. I imagine the Order in Council would depend on the reciprocity element. I do not quite know how further proposals could be made in order to ensure what I desire with him should be ensured as much as possible.
There is one further matter I should like to mention to the noble and learned Viscount opposite. If he feels—I am not sure that he does feel—that this matter would require further consideration, we do not want to quarrel over it. We want to be conciliatory and to come to right terms as between ourselves and other countries in regard to these commercial awards, which are of the greatest value. No one

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who understands commercial awards can doubt their value for a moment. I believe about 75 per cent. of what I may call international commercial awards which require to be generally enforced, are made in this country, much to our honour, and they may have to be enforced outside. If it would meet the views of the noble and learned Viscount, I propose that we should take the Committee stage of this Bill on Thursday, but if he would prefer that the Committee stage should be postponed until Tuesday in next week in order that he might have further time to consider the Bill, I will put the Committee stage down for then instead of for Thursday.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: That would do better.
LORD PARMOOR: I hope the noble and learned Viscount will realise that this is done in the hope that any Amendments which are required will be brought to our notice, and I hope, if possible, we shall settle them by talking the matter over rather than by coming in an adverse way to a Division in this House. If the noble and learned Viscount agrees with the noble Marquess that Tuesday would be a better day in order that he may have further time to consider the matter I will put the Committee stage down for Tuesday.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: May I, with noble Lords' permission, say it is not so much that I personally should have time to consider the draft, but that the legal luminaries in which this House is very rich may have an opportunity of bringing their minds to bear upon it, so that if there are flaws which either the noble Lord or myself have failed to detect they may possibly be put right before the Bill is sent down to another place. If there are none, and none are detected, so far as I am concerned I should think that the Report and Third Reading might follow very quickly.
LORD PARMOOR: I am much obliged for the way the noble Viscount puts it, because I think his mind has been upon the Bill quite as much as mine and probably more. At any rate I will take Tuesday, and on Tuesday I will move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be suspended as regards this Bill so as to get the further stages. It really is impossible
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to wait longer than Tuesday to complete the matter. I will leave the matter in that way.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
LORD PARMOOR: The Committe stage will be put down for Tuesday next. I do not know whether your Lordships are aware that Lord Darling's Motion has been postponed until next Wednesday.

LAND DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, this really is quite a small, formal Bill which I think can be dealt with in a very few words. It deals with a small point that was overlooked in the drafting of the Local Government Act of last Session. Under certain Local Acts, and particularly one that was passed about fifty years ago, the qualification for voting at elections for these drainage boards was based on the valuation of the hereditament for the purposes of the Poor Rate. The derating of agriculture really renders this form of election a farce. We have therefore had to find a substitute for the qualification of the value of the property under the Poor Rate and we have substituted, as your Lordships will see, Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918. We have chosen the gross annual value in this case because, apparently, the net annual value includes certain deductions including the drainage rate. Therefore in order to get over that difficulty we have chosen this phrase "gross annual value for Income Tax purposes" which you will find in the definition.
This Bill also deals with another small anomaly, because under certain Acts, notably one passed in 1861 and also the 1918 Act, some authorities levy rates on an acreage basis, but the voting is still based on annual value as laid down in the Act of 1861. This Bill adjusts that anomaly also. It is a small point, really not very important, because it is so seldom that there are elections for these drainage boards. It is very difficult often to get people to serve at all, but

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it is an anomaly and it is a good thing that this Bill should put it right. If the Bill should prove to meet the general agreement of your Lordships I will ask permission to put it down for the Committee stage next Thursday—the day after to-morrow—as I understand His Majesty's Government are most anxious to get the Bill through before the autumn. However I will leave that until there has been a discussion on the Bill and we will see whether there is general agreement in the House on the principles of the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl De La Warr.)
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE, who had given Notice to move, as an Amendment, That the Bill be read 2a this day three months, said: My Lords, I have given notice to move the rejection of this Bill in order that we may have a fuller explanation from the noble Earl than he has vouchsafed to your Lordships. May I, at the same time, congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for War on the fact that apparently he also represents the Ministry of Agriculture. Of course we know he is an agriculturist and thoroughly understands agricultural questions, but I think most of us on this side of the House deprecate very much indeed the fact that the Ministry of Agriculture is no longer directly represented in the. House as it has been for the past twenty-five years, but only by a noble Earl who, however able, has no direct communication with the Ministry and can only speak by the brief which is handed to him.
The difficulties which I expect will arise will be obvious when he is asked to undertake to do something. He will always have to tell us that he will have to apply to Mr. Buxton or to Dr. Addison for leave to carry out anything which we ask him to do. I am going to ask him now whether he would be ready to agree to a particular Amendment. As we hear constantly that the Labour Party is short of Peers it is rather a mystery why they have not taken the opportunity of making Dr. Addison a Peer. He would then be able to represent the Ministry of Agriculture in this House. I do not think for one moment that the Prime Minister would have appointed Dr. Addison as Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture
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unless he was satisfied that he was well versed in agriculture and thoroughly understood the wants of agriculturists. I have heard it suggested that he is rather more advanced and will be able to supply ginger to Mr. Buxton, the Minister, if he does not go far enough on some questions on which some of us would like him to go further.
I would ask exactly what is the use of this Bill? How does it alter the position of the Local Government Act, 1929? No doubt the noble Earl is quite conversant with the circular which was issued on May 29 last to drainage authorities, which explained exactly how the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1929, applied to land drainage. I do not think the noble Earl showed quite clearly—no doubt it is not his fault—that though agricultural land is derated under the Act of 1929, yet as regards the question of rating for the purposes of land drainage agricultural land is not derated, because I would remind him that by Section 67 (1) of the Local Government Act, 1929, agricultural land and buildings within the district of a drainage authority continue to be held liable for drainage rates. Therefore you see as a matter of fact that agricultural land under that section is not derated. That is pointed out by the circular which I hold in my hand.
Then again by Section 4 (1) of the Land Drainage Act, 1918, rates are levied on acreage or annual value at the option of the local authority. Do I understand from the noble Earl that that option is to be taken away by the Bill and that in future there is to be no possible alternative? It may be in some districts desirable to rate upon acreage alone and not on rateable value. I am not going into the question whether that is right or wrong. I am sorry I do not see the noble Earl, Lord Stradbroke, in his place because no doubt he would have been able to tell your Lordships the reason why that circular was issued and he would be more competent than I am to discuss the matter. It seems to me that the circular is a very valuable one and absolutely necessary, and I should like to ask why the present Government think it necessary as far as I can understand it, practically to destroy that circular which was only issued last May I would also like to know whether the

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Bill does away with the principle that land rated at 40 s. an acre and land rated at 5s. an acre should bear exactly the same rate; that is to say, that land valued at 40 s. would pay no more rates than land valued at 5s. an acre?
It seems to me, too, that a court of summary jurisdiction is hardly the proper body to deal with these matters. It would be much better to follow the precedent set by the late Government in the Local Government Act, when they provided an appeal to Quarter Sessions in order to facilitate matters of this kind. It was very properly arranged that a special committee of Quarter Sessions should be set up for dealing with these questions. It seems to me that this is exactly one of those cases where it is desirable to have an appeal to Quarter Sessions rather than to a court of summary jurisdiction. I think that noble Lords who sit upon local benches will agree that these benches consist of the men most interested in this question, and many of them would either be disqualified or would be unsuitable to hear these cases. It is very much better to have some tribunal that is entirely dissociated from any local questions of that sort, and that such questions should come before Justices of great experience and learned lawyers who will be able to deal with these very intricate matters. I imagine that the Local Government Act, 1929, will have to be applied in some of the cases, and I hope it is no part of the object of the noble Earl, the Under-Secretary of State for War, to get rid of the provisions of the Act of 1929, which, to my mind, is a very valuable measure indeed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day throe months").—(Lord Strachie.)
LORD BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I do not often find myself in full agreement with my noble friend Lord Strachie, but, as he knows, I have already indicated in the debate on the Address, and I should like to take this further opportunity of saying how very deeply I deprecate the fact that there is no official salaried representative of the Ministry of Agriculture sitting in this House. I took the opportunity of mentioning during the debate
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on the Address, and I should like to repeat, that the appointment of two separate Ministers sitting simultaneously in the two Houses of Parliament to represent the Ministry of Agriculture was, in fact, agreed to by Mr. Asquith when he was Prime Minister in 1912, on the definite understanding that in future there should always be one Minister representing the Ministry of Agriculture in each House of Parliament. At that time, of course, the sole Minister was the late Lord Carrington, as he then was, sitting in this House, and those of us in the House of Commons who took an interest in agriculture and agricultural matters took exception to there being no duly qualified representative in that House. I hope, therefore, whatever may be said of the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Strachie as to the extensive ennoblement of further sympathisers with the Labour Party, that, rather than disestablish my noble friend Lord De La Warr from the position which he has so well occupied this afternoon, he is the person who would be selected as representing the agricultural industry, of which he is known to be a well-informed champion, rather than that someone else should be asked to undertake the task.
So far as I understand this Bill—and it is rather nebulously worded—I believe it to be a pure matter of machinery in order to enable those who are members of drainage authorities up and down the country to continue to act in that capacity with a proper qualification. I am bound to say that I find it impossible, especially in this hot weather, to follow my noble friend Lord Strachie into the somewhat intricate objections that he found to certain provisions of this Bill. But one thing that I do very much want to say is that some of us are looking for a much more comprehensive and far-reaching Drainage Bill than this small measure and, if I may be allowed to say so as having sat as Chairman of the Royal Commission on Land Drainage in 1927, I consider, and I know that my colleagues on that Commission consider, that this is not a matter which will brook delay. No less than 52 years ago a Select Committee of your Lordships' House sat to consider the relatively water-logged condition of this country, and they stated in their Report that it was a matter deserving the urgent consideration of Parliament.

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Nothing has been clone since that time, and the land has become increasingly water-logged and less productive of primary wealth, and particularly of the food which we all so much desire to see produced.
There is one other thing that I wish to say. There are no fewer than 361 land drainage authorities in this country. Most of them are superfluous, some of them are costly and wholly ineffective and many of them are moribund. I should like to offer a caveat that there should be no implication, through the passage of this Bill, that those authorities are going to be continued in existence longer than is absolutely essential. The recommendation that we made was, of course, that there should be catchment area authorities and, within each area, certain internal drainage authorities, the number of whom in the aggregate would be something like one-tenth of that which we permit to attend to land drainage matters in this country to-day. I venture to hope that an early effort will be made to abolish the greater number of these drainage authorities, instead of appearing, by improving or remedying the basis of their qualifications for employment, to continue them in their present position for a clay longer than is absolutely necessary.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I do not propose to suggest who should be promoted to the Under-Secretaryship of Agriculture to sit on the Bench opposite, nor do I wish to go into any discussion as to whether or not there should be further provisions with regard to water on the land. At the present moment, so far as I know, there is very little water on the land anywhere, and many people would at the present moment like to see a little more water upon the land. This seems to me to be a very simple Bill which deals, not with any expansion of drainage or protection of land, but entirely with the manner in which a rate is to be levied.
LORD PARMOOR: No.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I am very glad to hear that remark. Perhaps I shall get an explanation. The first clause runs:—
" Any provision of any enactment relating to the drainage or protection of
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land which requires any matter, other than the amount of any drainage rate, to be determined by reference to the value of property as ascertained for the purposes of general rates, or of drainage rates, shall, as from the first day of October, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, have effect as if it required that matter to be determined by reference be such value as is herein after mentioned."
Speaking as a layman, that seems to me to refer to the method of assessment for raising rates, and to nothing else. But, if the noble and learned Lord says that I am wrong, I shall be very glad to be put right. The words of the clause are:—
" any matter, other than the amount of any drainage rate."
If he will look at the definition, he will see that "drainage rate" means—
" any rate which is assessed under any commission of sewers or in respect of any drainage, wall, embankment or other work for the benefit of the land."
Surely that covers everything. What else can there be? The definition seems to cover everything, and therefore the first clause—I do not know whether any noble Lord here can explain it—seems to me to be quite unnecessary and very difficult to understand.
Paragraph (i) of subsection (1) of Clause 1 says:—
"In the case of property assessed for Income Tax purposes under Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918, as amended by any subsequent enactment, by reference to gross annual value for Income Tax purposes,"
and then the definition clause says:—
"Gross annual value for Income Tax purposes' means the annual value for the time being in force for the purposes of Income Tux under Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918."
Is not that the net income? There are so many schedules that I am not sure, but it seems to me that the Income Tax as determined under Schedule A is net and not gross. I am sure that noble Lords opposite will be most anxious to see that all their Bills are drawn in such a way as to be understandable by the people, which has not always been the case lately, and I hope we shall have some explanation which will show what is the exact meaning of this particular Bill.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: There is only one small point which I wish to raise.
Clause 2 says:—"This Act shall not extend to Scotland or Northern Ireland." The Local Government Act has a clause which does not extend its provisions to the Isles of Scilly without a Provisional Order. I remember that these unfortunate islands were once left out before, and perhaps the noble Earl will look into the matter.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I should like to support Lord Banbury in his request for a little clearer understanding with regard to the reference to "gross annual value for Income Tax purposes." When I read the Bill through I underlined those words. I quite understand, especially when I come to the definitions on the second page, that it is the annual value for Income Tax purposes under Schedule A. That is quite plain there, but why is the gross annual value mentioned in paragraph (i)? I think that Lord De La Warr tried to explain in his speech, but he did not, I think, quite succeed.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I hope you will forgive me if I do not follow Lord Strachie and Lord Bledisloe on the constitution of the Government, but I will convey their message to the Prime Minister. The point Lord Strachie made about the circular of 1929 really is a most vital point, because it was in reference to that circular of 1929, and the replies of certain drainage authorities to the Ministry in response to that circular, that this whole question arose. They drew attention to the fact that there would be difficulties really in the coming elections of the drainage boards. This Bill concerns itself purely with the qualifications for voting, and it has no relation what-ever to the basis on which drainage rates are to be levied. The qualification was based not on the drainage rate but on the Poor Rate. What we call the Derating Act abolished this. We therefore had to find a new basis of qualification for voting, and we have found it in this gross annual value, to which Lord Dynevor has referred.
I am sorry if I did not make the matter absolutely clear to him. It is a very difficult point and I am quite sure that it was my fault. He says that the definition on the second page of the Bill is quite clear, but that he cannot understand why we have bothered to put
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"gross annual value" in paragraph (i) on the first page. The reason for that, as I tried to say before, was that if we had said net annual value we should have got the annual value with certain deductions, which include the drainage rates, and that was not considered desirable. Therefore the draftsman thought it best to insert "gross annual value," and then to define those words in the terms which Lord Dynevor says he finds quite satisfactory. If he needs any re-assurance on that point I can assure him that it is the definition which is the governing clause of the Bill with regard to that particular matter. I think those are the only points raised, with the exception of the Scilly Isles, and I will have that matter looked into.
LORD STRACHIE: The noble Earl does not answer my question whether he will substitute for a court of summary jurisdiction the Quarter Sessions.
LORD PARMOOR: The court of summary jurisdiction is the court which is generally used. It is much easier and less expensive.
LORD STRACHIE: I can assure the Lord President that that is not so, because under the Local Government Act the court of summary jurisdiction is not brought in. However, I will put down an Amendment in Committee, and will ask leave to withdraw my present Amendment, the noble Earl having explained to my satisfaction that this Bill merely deals with the qualifications—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Order! Order! the noble Lord is not entitled to make a second speech.
LORD STRACHIE: I thought that in withdrawing my Amendment I had a right.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Certainly not.
LORD STRACHIE: Then I will not say anything more.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

POOR LAW BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I need not detain you many minutes over this Bill, because, like many others in previous years, it is introduced and submitted to your Lordships for the sole object of being referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills which is in course of being set up by communications between this and the other House. I still have some hope that, although it can only be a short time before Parlament expects and hopes to adjourn, there is just a chance that that Committee may be constituted and may contrive to have a sitting in time for this Bill to be run through and receive the Royal Assent before the Recess—an object which it is really very desirable to attain if possible. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, as I explained when I had to do with the Local Government Act which was passing through your Lordships' House, that Act did not attempt to deal with the Poor
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Law as it stood consolidated under the Act of 1927, it only dealt with the transfer of functions to the county councils and county borough councils; and I told your Lordships that when the new authorities had acquired experience of their new duties, and had thorough knowledge of the working of the Poor Law, the amendment of the Act of 1927 would be considered and discussed with those authorities. I should like to know whether the introduction of this Consolidation Bill is a forerunner of that policy.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: I do not think that I am in a position to give a definite and precise answer to the noble Earl, but this I certainly can say, that if the subject of the Poor Law is to be dealt with it is of great importance that this consolidation should be in the hands of those who are interested in drafting any future Bill, for the purpose of putting into definite and intelligible form any changes which it is desired to make.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before six o'clock.

KILMARNOCK WATER PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL. MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Sheppey Water) [H.L.],

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Knebworth Water) [H.L.],

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bristol and Ross Water) [H.L.],

Darlington Corporation Trolley Vehicles (Additional Routes) Provisional Order,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders. Also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Barmouth Urban District Council,

Derby Corporation,

Grand Junction Company.

The same were Ordered to lie on the Table.

HENDON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed: The Committee to meet forthwith.
Bill reported, with Amendments.

CLYDE NAVIGATION BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GRAND JUNCTION COMPANY BILL. DERBY CORPORATION BILL.
Committed for to-morrow.

BURY SAINT EDMUND'S GAS ORDER, 1929.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Bury Saint Edmund's Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

DARLINGTON CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES (ADDITIONAL ROUTES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Committed for to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
First Report from the Select Committee made, to be printed, and to be considered on Tuesday next.