Sitting of 1 May 1928

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Lancashire Quarter Sessions Bill [Lords].

Port of London Bill [Lords].

Bills to be read a Second time.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Peterborough Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Torquay Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Godalming Extension) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill.

Bills to be read a Second time To-morrow.
PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS [Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Peti-
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tions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
London County Council (Ilford and Barking Drainage) [Lords].
Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Harwich Harbour Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Falmouth Water Bill,

Ystradfellte Water Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL,
  "to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Bognor Water and West Surrey Water," presented by Mr. Chamberlain; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 110.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  RUSSIA.

    FOREIGN TRADE.
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the President of the Board of Trade the value of the trade done between Russia and each of the following countries, the United States of America, Germany, Japan, and Great Britain, during each of the last four years?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): A table has been prepared giving the information for which the hon. Member asks, and, with his permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the information:
    The following statement shows the value of the foreign trade of Russia (European and Asiatic) with the four

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    countries specified during each of the years ended September, 1925, 1926 and 1927, as recorded in the Soviet official

    Country.

    Year.

    1924–25.

    1925–26.

    1926–27.

    Thousand Roubles.

    United Kingdom

    …

    Imports from

    110,702

    129,549

    101,081

    Exports to

    190,895

    194,050

    198,612

    Germany

    …

    Imports from

    102,668

    176,079

    161,546

    Exports to

    87,382

    111,618

    169,114

    United States of America

    …

    Imports from

    201,821

    122,162

    145,651

    Exports to

    28,176

    30,666

    23,207

    Japan

    …

    Imports from

    2,677

    2,572

    3,434

    Exports to

    12,580

    12,729

    11,550

    The figures of imports from individual countries include some goods originating in other countries.

    DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS.
    Captain GARRO-JONESasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the discussions which British representatives entered into with Russian delegates at Geneva and the fact that trade between the two countries is suffering from the lack of diplomatic facilities on both sides, he will be prepared to receive proposals for the reopening of diplomatic relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) on the 29th of February last, to which I have nothing to add.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Does that mean that the Government are not going to take any steps to get out of this very awkward position? Will they not, for example, provide facilities for a Debate in the hope that some useful suggestions may be made from one side of the House or the other?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: My right hoe. Friend on various occasions has pointed out that the trade between this country and Russia has nothing what-
    statistics. The published figures for the year 1923–24 are not comparable and are therefore not included.
    ever to do with the existence of diplomatic relations, or otherwise.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Can the hon. Member state why we cannot have the same reasonable understanding and the same friendly relations between the two countries which existed in 1917?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    COTTON COMPANIES.
    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of companies engaged in the cotton trade in Great Britain?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There is no official record of the number of firms engaged in the cotton trade. The cotton trade directories contain the most comprehensive information available.

    SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFTasked the President of the Board of Trade how many industries have applied to be safeguarded in 1927 and 1928; and how many have been granted the security of safeguarding duties in those years?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: During the period referred to, 10 applications for safeguarding duties have been made to the Board of Trade; four applications failed to show a prima facie case; one

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    is under consideration; two safeguarding duties have been proposed to Parliament; and two Reports from Committees are now pending.
    Sir H. CROFT: Does my right hon. Friend consider that these results carry out the Election pledge that all industries which could claim unfair foreign competition would be safeguarded? Is he satisfied, and, if not, will he modify the White Paper?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Prime Minister has already answered that question.

    SUGAR REFINING COMPANIES.
    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of companies engaged in the work of sugar refining; and the number of men and women engaged by such companies?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am unable to state the number of companies engaged in the work of sugar refining. According to the Preliminary Report on the Third Census of Production, the average number of persons employed in the sugar and glucose trades in 1924 was 12,626, of whom 11,079 were males and 1,547 females.
    Mr. KELLY: In view of the approaches which are now being made to the Government with regard to the sugar refining trade, may I ask if any record is kept of the companies which have made such approaches?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think that that question had better be asked of the Minister to whom the approaches were made.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    ACCOUTREMENTS (SALE).
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Secretary of State for War whether the recent sale of serviceable accoutrements was an occasional sale by negotiation; whether such sale was necessitated by considerations of urgency on the part of the War Office, whether, before reaching agreement as to price with the purchasers, any attempt was made to obtain competitive offers for the goods sold; and, if not, whether he is satisfied that a better price for the benefit of public funds could not have been obtained if open competition had been resorted to?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. As regards the third and fourth parts, the Department's experience of previous efforts to dispose of this class of goods by competitive tender justifies the conclusion that a less favourable price would have been realised by that method of disposal.
    Mr. EVERARD: Is the Department still continuing that method or will everything be put up to tender in future?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I cannot promise that. If by any particular method we are likely to get a better price, that method will be adopted.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Is it not the case that the method of competitive tender has failed, because there is no competition, since the firms get together to avoid competition; and will the right hon. Gentleman take any steps to prevent that malpractice?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I have no evidence of that. If the hon. and gallant Member has any, I shall be glad to consider it.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the report of a certain case now pending in the Law Courts, in which this practice was adopted to secure lower prices for tenders for Government stamp contracts?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: This question refers to the sale of surplus stores.
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in addition to the recent sale of serviceable accoutrements, negotiations for the sale of larger quantities of certain items of serviceable accoutrements to a private firm have recently taken place and, if so, with what result; and whether, in the event of any sale being concluded in this or any other instance the oldest and most worn articles in War Department stocks will be disposed of?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Yes, Sir; a further sale of somewhat larger quantities of certain items of serviceable accoutrements has been negotiated with a private firm. As regards the second part, the articles disposed of are surplus to Army requirements.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Would the right hon. Gentleman publish in the "Gazette" every month the number of articles sold to the various firms from time to time, with the names of the firms?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I do not know that any useful purpose would be served by that, but I will consider it.
    Mr. EVERARD: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, as to whether the articles that are most worn are disposed of first?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It would, of course, be absolutely impossible to say that without recording every article issued to troops and examining everything that there was. I cannot, therefore, say that they are the oldest, but I do say that they are surplus to requirements.

    ARMY OF OCCUPATION (FATAL ACCIDENT).
    Major-General Sir ROBERT HUTCHISONasked the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office, without recognising any legal liability, will, as an, act of grace, make some compensation grant to the widow of Feldhüter Haas, who was accidentally killed by three British soldiers of the Rhine Army?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I have called for a report on this case, and I will communicate with the hon. and gallant Member in due course.

    SIGNAL SERVICES.
    Mr. WALTER BAKERasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the number of male telegraphists in the Post Office will be depleted by the changed policy of that Department, which is to effect a reduction in the proportion of men to women telegraphists, and also to reduce the total number of established telegraphists by employing a considerable amount of part-time labour which will be principally female; whether he has satisfied himself that the number of male telegraphists of military age who will then be employed by the Post Office could meet the needs of the signal services of His Majesty's forces if required to do so; and, if not, what steps his Department proposes to take to deal with the problem created?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I would refer the bon. Member to my reply to a similar question on 22nd November last.
    Mr. BAKER: Will the right hon. Gentleman take an early opportunity of making a statement on this problem, which is facing his Department and is well worthy, not only of his consideration, but of a public statement to the House?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I gave, on the 22nd November last, a considered answer to this very same question.

    UNIFORM CLOTH.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what is the value and the number of yards of cloth damaged in the recent floods; what has been done with the cloth so damaged; and what is the maximum length of time the cloth has been in stock?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): 491,000 yards of cloth of various kinds, approximately £120,000 in value, were damaged by the Thames flood. All the material, except 1,350 yards which were too badly damaged, has been reconditioned and rendered fit for issue. As regards the last part of the question, a small portion of the material, consisting of full dress cloth, was purchased in 1914.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: Could my hon. Friend give some idea of the value of the cloth purchased prior to 1914 which is now in stock?
    Mr. COOPER: I could not, off-hand.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: If there is any considerable amount, could not my hon. Friend take some steps to have that cloth either made up after re-dyeing or sold?
    Mr. COOPER: As I have told my hon. Friend, all of this cloth is fit for use except a very small portion of some 1,350 yards, which has already been disposed of. The whole of the remainder is now fit for use, and will be used.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what length there is in stock of the uniform cloth formerly used by the 11th Hussars; the cost of this cloth; and the date when it was purchased?
    Mr. COOPER: The stock of uniform cloth peculiar to the 11th Hussars is 2,039 yards, the cost of which was £1,132. The cloth was purchased in 1914.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: Does not my hon. Friend think that this cloth could either be dyed and made up for use, or sold?
    Mr. COOPER: The cloth is perfectly fit for use now, and will, presumably, be used. I have no reason to suppose that it will not be found to be fit for use.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: Is it not of a peculiar shade which cannot be used for the ordinary requirements of the Army?
    Mr. COOPER: It can be used, at any rate, for bandsmen, and I believe it is intended to use it for that purpose.

  UNEMPLOYMENT (ARMY RESERVISTS).
  Mr. WELLOCKasked the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes to take special measures to find employment for the 1,344 A reservists returned from China, who on a recent date were still unemployed; and, if so, what they are?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The names of those Section A reservists who are desirous of being registered for employment have been placed on the books of the organisations engaged in obtaining work for ex-soldiers, and these organisations are making special efforts on behalf of these men. The local military authorities and the Ministry of Labour have also been asked to assist. Reports show that a considerable number have obtained work.
  Mr. WELLOCK: In view of the fact that hundreds of these men had jobs when they went out, and now have no jobs, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that something more should be done than actually is being done, because only a very small number are being found work by the means which he has mentioned?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I do not know whether the hon. Member really knows that hundreds of men who were in jobs are now out of jobs. Unfortunately, a great many were out of work when they were called up in the "A" Reserve, and I am glad to think that a good many have been placed in
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  work. We are all doing our utmost to get for these men the work which they well deserve.
  Mr. WELLOCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the number is over 50 per cent of the total?
  Mr. DAY: Arising out of the original answer, in which the right hon. Gentleman said that a very considerable number have been found work, can he state how many have been found work?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I would not like absolutely to vouch for the figure, because the reports are not complete. I have only had reports from some sources, and those sources show that over 150 have had work; but there are other organisations besides, which have not yet reported.
  Mr. HANNON: Is it not a fact that the employment exchanges throughout the country are doing their best to find employment for this particular class of ex-service men?
  Mr. THURTLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, if these men are not found employment, working men will begin to think that patriotism does not pay?
  Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I realise every sort of statement that can be made about the difficulty of obtaining work if you are in the Reserve.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    DISABILITY PENSIONS (G. MOSS).
    Mr. R. YOUNGasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, with regard to George Moss, No. 4119530, Cheshire Regiment, who was discharged from the Army for a foot injury or disease contracted while in India, whether he can say what the injury or disease is; whether the diagnosis was the same in India was after his return to this country and what it now is; and whether this soldier is entitled to any disability grant or payment, seeing that the trouble is of a permanent nature?
    Mr. COOPER: As regards the first part of the question, it would be contrary to the established practice to dis-

    1495
    close details from a soldier's medical history sheet. As regards the last part of the question, as Private Moss's disability was not attributable to his military service, I regret that he is not entitled to a pension from Army funds. He has, however, been granted a gratuity of £16, which is the maximum sum for which he was eligible.

    ADMINISTRATION (COST).
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Minister of Pensions if he can now make any statement as to the possibility of stabilising existing pensions, and thereby effecting material reductions in the cost of administration?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): The cost of administration has been and is being reduced in the direction indicated by my hon. Friend by means of final awards, by reduction of the number of medical examinations and by otherwise curtailing, as far as possible, the review of all classes of pension. For the information of my hon. Friend, I may say that the cost of administration has, in fact, been reduced from 15d. in the £ of benefits in 1920 to 5½d. in the £ in the current year.

    PAYMENT.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Pensions if he will arrange for actors on tour, commercial travellers, and other persons whose occupations necessitate their being in a different town nearly every week, to cash their pension cheques at any post office in Britain or Northern Ireland?
    Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY: The existing arrangements permit pensioners who hold order books to change the office of payment every week, if necessary. Many pensioners, however, particularly those who are frequently absent from home, prefer to draw their pensions by payable order quarterly in arrear. This can be arranged on application to the Controller of Pension Issue Office.

  SCOTLAND.

    DEATH CERTIFICATES, EDINBURGH.
    Sir R. HUTCHISONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what
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    arrangements are made during holiday periods for the issue of death certificates from the registry offices in Edinburgh?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): No arrangements are made for the issue of death certificates from the registry offices in Edinburgh on the public holidays on which they are closed.

    RENTS, MIDLOTHIAN.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the rents charged for three- and two-apartment houses in Midlothian, built with State assistance under the Housing Acts and controlled by the county council, are from £4 to £8 dearer for three-apartment houses, and £3 dearer for two-apartment houses than the rents charged for similar housing accommodation in Fife; and will he take action to have the rents in Midlothian brought more into conformity with rents charged in the other counties?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The rents of the houses in question are regulated, not only by the number of their apartments, but also by such considerations as the size of these apartments, the type, construction, and amenities of the houses, the site, the locality, and the classes of tenant. These considerations, together with the fact that the rents fall to be determined on different bases according to the powers under which the houses were erected, obviously permit of rental diversities as between the various counties and I find no reason for any interference on my part with the discretion of the local authorities in the matter.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is it not possible to take into consideration, in settling the rents to be charged, the wages earned by individuals in the locality?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I think that the local authorities have very wide powers in this matter, and that it ought to be left to them.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that people of a better type have to pay more or less?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: A great many factors come into consideration in the settlement of these cases, and it can only be with the local knowledge and by the

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    powers of the local authorities that the matter can be settled, having regard to the variety of interests concerned.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: One of the factors mentioned in the right hon. Gentleman's answer was the class of tenants, and that was why I put my supplementary question.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's own Department had to use the greatest pressure to compel them to build houses, and is not this now a case of making it as difficult as possible for ordinary tenants to inhabit the houses?

    ELGIN SHERIFF COURT (SENTENCE).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the sentence of 12 months' imprisonment passed upon a salmon fishery overseer at Elgin Sheriff Court; and whether, seeing that this man had control of £15,000 in salmon or cash, and that his salary was only £2 a week and £7 a year in fishing money, he proposes, under the circumstances, to recommend a reduction of the sentence?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have made inquiry in this case, to which my attention had not previously been called. I am informed that the man was in control of approximately £500 a year, and not £15,000, and that his income was considerably in excess of the sums stated in the second part of the question. After careful consideration, I am satisfied that I would not be justified in advising any interference with the sentence.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: In his inquiries, has the right hon. Gentleman discovered that these statements in the question were made in the course of the trial by the agent for this accused person, and were not, so far as the Press reports go, disputed by the prosecution?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All I know is that I have asked for a report from the sheriff, and, until it is received, I see no reason to interfere.

    HOUSING, GLASGOW.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses at present being built in the city of Glasgow, the number for which plans are prepared but not started, and the
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    number of houses which can be built on land bought but for which no plans are yet prepared; and if he is satisfied that the full number of workers available are at present employed?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: According to the returns received by the Scottish Board of Health as at 31st March last, the number of subsidised houses under construction in Glasgow was 5,914 and the number approved for subsidy but not commenced was 4,399. I am informed that the number of houses that might be built on land bought by the Corporation but for which no plans are yet prepared is £2,000. As regards the last part of the question, I understand that, as compared with February, the number of unemployed in the building trades in Glasgow in March showed a decrease in all trades and that that decrease over all the building trades was approximately 30 per cent.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in reply to a previous question he agreed to consult local authorities to see whether more building workers could not be employed? Has he consulted the local authorities at all?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Every effort is being made by the Department to stimulate further progress in building.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an answer he gave me shows there is a great increase in unemployed building workers all over Scotland, especially carpenters?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although Glasgow shows a decrease in building trade workers, other parts of Scotland are showing an increase? Gould nothing be done to stimulate housing, and to see that these workers are employed?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Every effort is being made by my Department to stimulate the production of housing.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that house owners in Glasgow are refusing to repair or maintain washhouses which are required by householders for the purpose of cleanliness; that the local authority at present have no power to enforce repairs; that this is harmful for

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    health and sanitation; and if, in view of the provision of the Rent Restriction Acts allowing 25 per cent. increase for repairs, he proposes to take any action to have the position remedied?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no information as to the state of affairs mentioned in the first part of the question, but I am making inquiries into the matter and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses inhabited but certified unfit for human habitation in Glasgow at 31st March, 1928; the number of houses completed and occupied at that date under the slum clearance scheme; the number under construction; and the number authorised under the same scheme??
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am informed that in Glasgow as at 31st March last (1) the number of houses inhabited but certified

    STATEMENT showing as at 31st March, 1927, and 31st March, 1928, specified particulars as regards houses being erected under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924, respectively.

    Date.

    Housing, etc. Act, 1923 (including Slum Clearance Schemes).

    Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924.

    Number of subsidised houses under construction.

    Number of houses authorised but not commenced.

    Number of subsidised houses under construction.

    Number of houses authorised but not commenced.

    As at—

    31st March, 1927

    …

    5,721

    2,839

    14,115

    4,501

    31st March, 1928

    …

    5,474

    2,267

    12,627

    6,451

    VENEREAL DISEASE.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that in certain counties in Scotland no facilities are maintained for the purpose of the treatment of venereal disease; that 26 towns of a population of 10,000 and over have no clinic; that a number of sufferers are constantly shifting from place to place; and if, in view of the dissatisfaction arising from this, he will consider the establishing of a committee of inquiry into the whole question of the treatment of venereal disease?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: While in certain counties in Scotland there are no centres for the treatment of venereal disease, there is no county in Scotland that is
    unfit for human habitation was 3,007; (2) the number of houses under the slum clearance scheme completed and occupied was 2,716; and (3) the number of houses in course of construction under the slum clearance scheme was 870. Other than the numbers given in (2) and (3) there are no houses authorised under the slum clearance scheme.

    HOUSING STATISTICS.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses in Scotland under construction, and the number of houses authorised but not started, at the latest available date, and the similar figures for last year at the same date under the Housing Acts, 1923 and 1924, respectively?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As the information desired involves a number of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the information:
    without facilities for such treatment, either at a centre situated within its borders or by arrangements with another local authority. With regard to towns of a population of 10,000 and over, the position is as stated in my reply to the hon. Member's question of 17th April. I am aware that a certain number of persons suffering from venereal disease may shift from place to place, and, indeed, for one important class of persons who frequently move, namely, sailors, treatment facilities have been specially provided in the principal ports. As I have stated in my previous answer already referred to, the development of venereal disease schemes in all areas is being carefully watched and reviewed by the Scottish Board of Health,

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    and in connection with the Budget proposals I have under consideration the whole position of local administration in Scotland. I do not think that at present any good purpose would be served by the appointment of a committee of inquiry such as the hon. Member suggests.
    Mr. E. BROWN: In view of the statement about seamen, could the right hon. Gentleman see his way in the next return of the Board of Health to deduct the number of seamen who are really not defaulters?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting in his answer that seamen are particularly suffering from this disease, and is he aware that the Ministry of Health statistics do not show that?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All that my answer suggests or implies is that seamen, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, leave certain districts, and, subject to that, arrangements are being made for special facilities at the ports.

    BEET SUGAR FACTORY, PRESTONHALL.
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the heavy fall in the number of contracts for the supply of sugar beet for the factory at Prestonhall, Cupar, Fifeshire; and if, in view of the diminishing acreage of beet cultivation in Scotland, any steps are being taken to secure such increased production of beet as will ensure the continued existence of the Prestonhall factory?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the matter is one for arrangement between the growers and the factory owners.
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received any complaints regarding the labour conditions prevailing at the beet sugar factory at Prestonhall, Cupar, Fifeshire; and if any action is to be taken by the Scottish Board of Agriculture to secure the adoption of the fair wages clause and reasonable hours of employment for the workers employed at this factory?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The Board of Agriculture for Scotland have received
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    representations regarding the conditions of employment at the Cupar factory, and they are making inquiry into the matter.

    EDUCATION AUTHORITIES (EXPENSES).
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has considered the expressions of resentment by the whole of the Scottish education authorities against the minute of the Scottish Education Department, dated 28th March, 1928, with reference to the expenses of education authorities; if he is aware that the terms of the minute are regarded as an invasion of the rights of education authorities; and if he will now agree to modify or withdraw the restriction in the minute which deprives authorities of the power to attend educational conferences in England or to send representatives out of Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Education Department?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Six weeks before the minute of 28th March, 1928, was laid on the Table of the House, it was submitted in draft to the whole of the education authorities of Scotland for their observations. When the replies came to be considered, it was found that only one of the 37 authorities raised any objection whatever to the provision mentioned by the hon. Member, despite the fact that special attention had been called to it in the covering circular. In the circumstances, the reply to the first and second parts of the question must obviously be in the negative. In answering the third part in the negative, I should like to assure the hon. Member that there is no intention of unduly restricting the reasonable discretion of education authorities.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Which was the single authority?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Glasgow.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received the memorial of the education authority of Glasgow urging the withdrawal of the Education Authorities (Scotland) Expenses Regulations. 1928, placed upon the Table of this House on 2nd April; if he is aware that the executive of the education authorities of Scotland requested alterations in the minute; that the only case cited to a committee

    1503
    of that executive to justify alterations in existing minutes was the case of an authority sending a deputation out with Great Britain; that out with the country were the words used in urging the case for change; and, if so, will he agree to withdraw the minute and have deleted the paragraph objected to, and have inserted in its place the suggestion of the executive of the Association of Education Authorities?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative, and to the third and fourth parts in the negative. With regard to the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply which I have just given to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Mr. T. Kennedy).

    RIVER KELVIN (FLOODING).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he proposes to take any steps by the introduction of legislation or otherwise to bring into effective cultivation the 2,000 acres of land repeatedly flooded and rendered useless by the overflowing of the River Kelvin; and whether he is aware that there are large numbers of unemployed colliers in the district available for any work in dredging the river and raising protective banking from the sludge?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Under the existing law the situation in the Kelvin Valley can only be dealt with by the riparian owners concerned, and I am informed by the hon. and gallant Member for the Clackmannan and Western Division (Captain Fanshawe), who has been endeavouring to facilitate negotiations with a view to action by the parties concerned, that no Progress has been made in this direction. The Question of legislation is under consideration.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a similar answer to similar questions has been given in this House since 1922?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The matter is one of no small difficulty, and owing to the pressure of other legislation, it has been impossible to deal with the problem.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Are we to understand that immediately the right hon. Gentle-
    1504
    man finds a suitable opportunity, he proposes to bring in legislation which will remedy this terrible state of affairs?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The matter is under the very careful consideration of the Department, and, if and when a suitable opportunity arises and we think we have found the proper course. I shall bring it to the House.
    Mr. HARDIE: Could not the right hon. Gentleman bring this case under the Public Nuisances Act and get it put right?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, I do not think there is any power.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Has the right hon. Gentleman any power to deal with this through the Ministry of Transport by reason of the fact that public roads are being continually destroyed by these floods, and public expenditure is incurred in making the roads?
    Commander WILLIAMS: Why did not the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor deal with it?

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    OIL EXTRACTION.
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary for Mines if the oil from the Bergius plant is a synthetic oil; what is the quantity procured per ton; whether the oil has been analysed, and what are the results; does the oil differ from oil taken from coal by other processes and is its production likely to be cheaper than present practical and commercially-proved plants?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Commodore Douglas King): Synthetic oil is difficult to define accurately, but the oil from the Bergius process is sometimes so described; the answer to the second, third and fourth parts of the question is that the quantity and nature of the oil produced varies with the coal used; and to the fifth that I have no information at present which would justify a prophecy.
    Mr. HARDIE: Since this investigation has been going on so long, are the difficulties so great that it is now impossible after all these months to give a complete answer to the six questions contained in my question?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir, I hope the hon. Member will only take from my answer what I put into it.
    Mr. HARDIE: Yes, but I want more. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman responsible for answering this question understand that when we put questions in the House it is not in order to get what Ministers like to give but to get the truth. I want to ask at what stage is this experiment? Is it only at that stage where there is nothing determinative that can be given in the expression of an analysis, say, of oil. Is it in such a state that we cannot get any comparison with any other process that takes oil from coal?
    Mr. AUSTIN HOPKINSON: Is it not perfectly obvious to anyone who knows anything whatsoever about this subject that oil produced by the Bergius process must be synthetic?
    Mr. WHITELEYasked the Secretary for Mines the quantities of benzol and liquid fuel manufactured by scientific processes from British coal; and the tonnage of coal utilised for this purpose during 1925, 1926, and 1927?
    Commodore KING: I regret that the information asked for is not available.
    Mr. WHITELEY: Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman noticed that in his speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to this matter as being of great importance, and are we to understand that the information on which we can base exactly what is going to happen in the future cannot be given to the House?
    Commodore KING: I realise the importance of it. One of my difficulties is as to whether the hon. Member includes in scientific processes the ordinary methods of obtaining benzol from coke ovens. If he means the experimental stage, I am not in a position at the present time to tell him those processes in the experimental stage for endeavouring to obtain oil.
    Mr. WHITELEY: All that I require is the information that is in the possession of the Government so that the House may know it.
    Commodore KING: Well, no information is in my possession.
    Mr. HARDIE: Arising out of the serious admission now made by the head
    1506
    of the Mines Department that he has no information, does he call something that is said to be a manufacture from coke an unscientific process, and does the benzol obtained by that process differ from that produced by a scientific process? Has he forgotten that the chief source of benzol is the gas works? My hon. Friend asked a definite question, and we now have the admission that the head of the Mines Department is incapable of answering the question.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this is a very important question, and are we really to understand that the Minister can give no information as to how this business is progressing and has no information to tell the House as to whether coal is being scientifically treated?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman must not take that from my answer. What I said was that we have not the information asked for. I realise the different processes by which benzol is obtained, but my Department have no record of the amount of benzol so obtained.
    Mr. KELLY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether his Department furnished the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the information upon which he based his statement during his Budget speech?
    Commodore KING: I should require notice of that question.
    Mr. HARDIE: May I ask just one more question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put down the question.

    EXPORTS (HULL).
    Mr. LUNNasked the Secretary for Mines what is the total tonnage of coal exported each week during 1928 from the port of Hull?
    Commodore KING: I regret that official weekly figures are not available. The monthly figures for the year are:

    January

    …

    …

    …

    83,569

    February

    …

    …

    …

    71,248

    March

    …

    …

    …

    86,584

    The April export figure is estimated to be about 50,000 tons, and it should be remembered that Easter holidays came in that period.

    CLOSED MINES.
    Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Secretary for Mines if ho will give a list of the pits in the North Wales coalfield which restarted work after the stoppage of 1926 but are now closed, naming their location and the collieries to which they belong?
    Commodore KING: Ten pits, normally employing 1,403 wage-earners, which restarted work after the stoppage of 1926, are now closed. I will send the hon. Member a list of them.
    Mr. W. M. WATSONasked the Secretary for Mines the number and names of the collieries that have ceased working in the counties of Lanark, Stirling, West Lothian, and Dumbarton since the beginning of the present year and until the latest available date, with the number of persons who have been rendered idle in each of the collieries stated separately; and the number in each county that have been suspended temporarily and the numbers that are stated to be permanently abandoned?
    Commodore KING: The numbers are as follow:

    In the county of Lanark, 24 pits employing 5,071 wage-earners.

    In the county of Stirling, two pits employing 225 wage-earners.

    In the county of Linlithgow, one pit employing 215 wage-earners.

    No pits in Dumbarton have been closed during this period and the only pits notified as permanently abandoned are three small pits in Lanark. I will send the hon. Member a list of the closed pits, showing the numbers normally employed at each.

    STATISTICS, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. W. M. WATSONasked the Secretary for Mines the number of collieries operating in the counties of Lanark, Stirling, West Lothian, Dumbarton, and Renfrew for the years 1913, 1924, 1925, 1926, and 1927, with the numbers employed each year for each county separately?
    Commodore KING: As the reply contains a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:

    NUMBER of COAL MINES AT WORK and the Number of Persons employed in December in the Counties of Lanark, Stirling, West Lothian, Dumbarton and Renfrew in 1913, 1924, 1925, 1926 and 1927.

    County.

    Number of Mines at Work.

    Number of Persons Employed.

    1913.

    Lanark

    …

    214

    59,360

    Stirling

    …

    45

    10,662

    West Lothian

    …

    27

    6,518

    Dumbarton

    …

    10

    2,372

    Renfrew

    …

    3

    731

    1924.

    Lanark

    …

    192

    56,657

    Stirling

    …

    39

    11,610

    West Lothian

    …

    19

    6,944

    Dumbarton

    …

    7

    2,247

    Renfrew

    …

    1

    590

    1925.

    Lanark

    …

    193

    48,420

    Stirling

    …

    35

    8,997

    West Lothian

    …

    19

    7,080

    Dumbarton

    …

    6

    2,280

    Renfrew

    …

    1

    573

    1926.

    Lanark

    …

    215

    40,619

    Stirling

    …

    43

    6,967

    West Lothian

    …

    19

    5,386

    Dumbarton

    …

    6

    1,934

    Renfrew

    …

    2

    333

    1927.

    Lanark

    …

    167

    40,592

    Stirling

    …

    42

    7,537

    West Lothian

    …

    24

    5,998

    Dumbarton

    …

    6

    2,128

    Renfrew

    …

    —

    —

    EMPLOYMENT OF BOYS (PROSECUTIONS).
    Mr. WHITELEYasked the Secretary for Mines the number of eases of employment of boys beyond the statutory period in coal mines during the years 1925, 1926, and 1927, and the number of prosecutions instituted in such cases?
    Commodore KING: One prosecution for a number of offences on the surface was successfully undertaken in 1926 and another, in which a conviction was subsequently secured, was instituted in 1927.

    AMALGAMATIONS.
    Mr. RENNIE SMITHasked the Secretary for Mines if he can indicate the

    1509
    progress which has been made to date in the direction of amalgamations in the mining industry since the stoppage of 1926, and, in particular, how many districts are now amalgamated for the purpose of regulating the price of coal?
    Commodore KING: I cannot add anything at present to the answers which I gave to the hon. Member for Aberdeen East (Mr. Boothby) on 6th March and to the hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. W. M. Watson) on 28th March.

  TRANSPORT.

    ELEPHANT AND CASTLE, SOUTHWARK.
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made to provide alternative routes enabling traffic to by-pass the Elephant and Castle, in the borough of Southwark; whether any negotiations are proceeding with a view to further immediate improvements; and can he give particulars of them?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): Arrangements have been made for a widening of Harper Street and Union Street, and negotiations are proceeding which I hope will result in further improvements in this neighbourhood on the lines recommended by the London Traffic Advisory Committee on page 22 of their First Annual Report.
    Mr. DAY: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say what has been holding up these negotiations, because I have had the same answer several times?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think that not only the necessity of consulting a good many people, but also the necessity of finding the money.

    TRAFFIC CONTROL (SIGNALS).
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport if any decision has been arrived at as to the desirability of extending the experiments which have been made in traffic control by light signals in the Metropolitan area?
    Colonel ASHLEY: No decision has yet been come to as to the desirability of carrying out further experiments of controlling traffic by means of light signals, but the matter is under consideration.
    Mr. DAY: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the light signals at Piccadilly and Berkeley Street have been successful.
    Colonel ASHLEY: Yes, I think so, on the whole.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAINasked the Minister of Transport whether he will give consideration to adopting for directional purposes on cross roads a certain number of the movable signs, Stop and Go, which are made use of in many countries and which are easily seen by motor drivers and are far less fatiguing to the policeman on point duty than is the method of holding his hand out at arms' length?
    Colonel ASHLEY: My Department has considered the use of movable "Stop" and "Go" signs, and the matter is still under the consideration of the London Traffic Advisory Committee.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that this system has been very successful in the United States of America and other countries where it has been tried, and does he not think that it is very hard on a policeman to hold out his arms horizontally for a considerable time?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The signs would probably be very wooden, and I would much rather rely upon the discretion of the police.
    Mr. GARDNER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the experiment is working very successfully in Brighton?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman considered the practice in Malaya of fitting the policeman with basket wings on his back, so that he has only to turn round?

    MENAI BRIDGE TOLLS.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Minister of Transport, whether, having regard to the high profits made from the Menai Bridge tolls during the financial year 1926–27, he has yet decided to abolish or substantially reduce the charges?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have decided to make certain modifications in the bridge tolls. Under the new tariff, which will come into force on 1st June next, the toll on four-seater motor cars and four-wheeled horse-drawn carriages will be

    1511
    reduced from 1s. 8d. to 1s. and certain other concessions of a, minor nature will be made.

    FORTH (ROAD BRIDGE).
    Mr. W. M. WATSONasked the Minister of Transport whether the survey in connection with the proposed road bridge across the Forth is nearly completed; and when he expects to have a Report?
    Colonel ASHLEY: As I have already explained to the hon. Member, the investigations are lengthy and difficult, and it is unlikely that the Report will be available before the autumn.

    HEAVY COMMERCIAL VEHICLES (PETROL DUTY).
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Transport the number of heavy commercial vehicles on the roads of Great Britain and the average mileage per month, per van or wagon; and the estimated total cost of the Petrol Duty to users of these vehicles during the period 24th April, 1928, to 31st March, 1929, at a mileage of five miles to the gallon?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I am sending to the hon. Member figures showing the approximate numbers of heavy commercial vehicles driven by internal-combustion engines licensed during the September quarter, 1927. Detailed information as to the annual mileage run by vehicles of particular types is not available, but I may add that a mileage of five miles to the gallon, which the hon. Member mentions, would only apply to the heaviest types of road vehicles.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the total damage that is done to the roads is done by these vehicles?
    Colonel ASHLEY: It would be quite impossible to say.

    RAILWAY (ROAD TRANSPORT) BILLS.
    Mr. BARNESasked the Minister of Transport whether a report has been submitted to him by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee upon the five Railway (Road Transport) Bills; and, if so, whether he proposes to furnish a copy of such report to the Joint Committee to which the Bills have been referred?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, my report to the Joint Committee on these Bills draws attention to the special position in the London traffic area but does not contain a copy of the London Traffic Committee's Report.
    Mr. BARNES: Does the report which the Minister has submitted embody the report of the London Traffic Committee and does the report also contain the views of a number of local authorities in London. Does he consider their views?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Naturally, I have regard to views put to me, but the hon. Member must remember that the responsibility for the report rests with the Minister and no one else.
    Mr. BARNES: While I recognise that fact, does not the Minister appreciate that, if the local authorities have made a report to the Committee, and the Minister does not submit it to the Committee upstairs, it places them at a disadvantage?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have considered all the various representations made to me and have submitted my report to the Committee. Any action which the Committee may take will be according to what view they take.

    PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC (ESCALATORS).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Minister of Transport whether the question of public escalators has been considered as a means of affording pedestrians a safe and rapid method of crossing certain points where very heavy traffic takes place; and, if so, what would be approximately the cost of such constructions and what the annual maintenance?
    Colonel ASHLEY: In present circumstances I doubt whether the provision of such escalators can be considered feasible. I have no figures as to the probable cost of construction and maintenance.

  WIRELESS AND CABLE CONFERENCE (REPORT).
  Mr. W. BAKERasked the Prime Minister when he received the report of the Imperial Conference on cable and

  1513
  wireless services; when it is hoped to publish the report; whether, in view of the importance of this question, he will make a statement as to the offer he has recently received to purchase the whole means of Imperial telegraphic communication; and, if so, what was the sum offered?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): No Report has as yet been submitted by the Wireless and Cable Conference. It is not, therefore, possible for me to say anything with regard to its publication. No offer has been made direct to His Majesty's Government in Great Britain in regard to the purchase of the whole means of Imperial telegraphic communication. I understand that certain suggestions in this connection have been laid before the Conference, and are still under consideration by that body. Until the Report of the Conference is available it is obviously impossible for me to make any statement.
  Mr. BAKER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how soon the Report is likely to be available?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot say that. I may be able to give a more or less definite answer if a question is put down, but there are, as I understand, communications to be made with the various Dominion Governments before we can publish the Report.

  INCOME TAX (APPEAL CASE).
  Sir W. de FRECEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the cost to the country of the proceedings taken by the Inland Revenue Commissioners versus Wilson; and what action is being taken, in view of the opinion of the Judges that the appeal by the Crown should never have been brought?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given yesterday to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne). I am sending him a copy of that reply.
  Sir W. de FRECE: Would £3,000 be an accurate figure of the cost of the appeal?
  Mr. SAMUEL: No, Sir. From the information which I have received I should think it is under £1,000.

  BUDGET.

    OILS IMPORT DUTY.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the petrol companies ordered an increase of 4¼d. per gallon on petrol on the morning following his Budget statement; whether the imposition of this extra farthing was taken after consultation with him; and, if not, whether he proposes to take any action?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I am aware that the price of petrol has in many cases been increased by 4¼d. a gallon, but the Treasury is in no way responsible for the extra farthing. I had, however, been informed that in the event of a duty the oil companies would find it necessary to make some addition to the tax in order to meet the extra expense of distribution, of lying out of the duty during the period between payment and recovery from their customers, and of the loss of duty on the proportion of spirit which is lost by evaporation and wastage after duty has been paid. It must be observed that when the former petrol duty of 6d. a gallon was removed in 1920, the companies reduced the price by 7d. and not by 6d. a gallon.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this farthing per gallon means an extra payment to the companies of about £1,000,000 a year? Is it suggested that the cost of collection, etc., mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman will involve £1,000,000? Is he further aware that it is common knowledge that the petrol companies are going to make over this Petrol Duty?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Of course, whenever a new tax is imposed, certain reactions follow which are or ought to be corrected by the course of the market; but in any case the Exchequer cannot accept responsibility for anything beyond the exact amount of the duty which has been imposed.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Did the right hon. Gentleman get any

    1515
    assurance from the companies as to not putting up their price over and above the duty?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have stated in my answer that the companies informed me that they would require to make an addition. I have no responsibility for that.
    Mr. CONNOLLY: In the event of the Budget Resolution being defeated, can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps I can take to get my money back from the petrol companies?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Should such a disaster occur, I should be very glad to see in what way a lifeboat could be sent out to the hon. Member.
    Mr. HARDIE: In regard to the question of evaporation, are we to understand that there has been greater evaporation since the duty was put on?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, but such evaporation as takes place, is on the basis of a commodity which has 4d. added to its value.
    Viscount SANDONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to admit Empire hydrocarbon oils free or on a reduced scale of duty; and, if so, what will be the amount of the duty?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Careful consideration was given to this point, but the practical benefit of preference in the case of hydrocarbon oils would be negligible, while the complication which it would introduce into the working of the tax would be great. I have therefore decided not to propose a preferential rate of duty.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a resolution, passed unanimously by the Seed Crushers' Committee of the Hull Incorporated Chamber of Commerce and Shipping, protesting against the proposed application of Excise duties on hydrocarbon oils on the grounds that it will increase the cost of production for cattle-feeding cakes where much petrol is used; if he is aware that Hull is the largest centre in the world for this industry; and whether he will consider exempting from duty oils used in extracting cattle-feeding stuffs?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have already received representations on this subject from the hon. Members for Darwen (Sir F. Sanderson), Kingston-upon-Hull (Mr. Lumley) and Howdenshire (Major Carver). I regret that I cannot agree to exempt any particular industry from the operation of the tax on light hydrocarbon oils. Moreover, as regards this particular case, I am advised that the effect of the duty on the cost of the manufacture of cattle feeding cakes should be negligible as the petrol used as a solvent in the extraction process can be and is recovered, and is available for further use with but a very small percentage of loss. I understand that the price of cattle cake as supplied to the farmer is from £8 to £13 10s. a ton. The additional cost of manufacture due to the duty on solvent lost should not, I am advised, exceed about 4d. a ton.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of the leading members of the trade in my own constituency—which is a great centre of this trade—put the extra price at a great deal higher than 4d., and is he aware that the competition from abroad is exceedingly keen and that, if our raw material is taxed, it will simply mean that orders will go to Denmark or Germany, with loss to this country?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: When the rating relief scheme is in operation, the manufacturers, who reside in the hon. and gallant Member's constituency, will probably receive a substantial relief which will more than offset this extremely small addition to the cost which is contemplated.
    Mr. LUMLEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one firm in my constituency alone uses 10,000 gallons of petrol a week, and that this is a very considerable increase on the cost of production?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That increase on the cost of production must be considered also in relation to the very wide variations in the price of cattle cake as supplied to the farmer, which ranges between £8 to £13 10s. a ton. It must also be considered in relation to the substantial relief to productive industry which it is the object of the policy of His Majesty's Government to procure.
    Sir FRANK SANDERSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that on a previous occasion when a tax was placed upon petrol, a rebate was given; and is he also aware that the cost per ton of manufacture is in fact between 4s. and 5s. a ton, and, inasmuch as the extractors work for a profit of 2s. 6d. a ton, it will not only increase the cost of foodstuffs in this country to the farmer, but will also have the effect of sending business to Germany which also supplies the Scandinavian countries?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am well aware that the old petrol tax of 6d. was ruined as a fiscal instrument by the introduction of an enormous variety of exceptions of this kind and that kind, each exception leading to another, and many of them leading to evasion and leakage in connection with the tax. I am quite sure, whatever other opinions the House may form of the Oils Duty, no evasion of the integrity and sanctity of the petrol tax can be admitted.
    Sir HUGH LUCAS-TOOTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that some retailers have increased the price of benzol mixture by the same amount as pure petrol; and whether he has made any estimate as to the amount of duty actually paid per gallon of this mixture?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, if the benzol is imported or derived from imported materials it is liable to the same rate of duty at petrol. Only benzol produced from indigenous materials is free of duty. It follows that if the benzol in the mixture is imported or derived from imported material, the mixture will have paid the full rate of duty, but that if the benzol is derived from indigenous material, the duty paid on the mixture will vary with the proportion of duty-free benzol contained therein. I understand that benzol mixtures contain about one-third benzol, so that if all the benzol is duty-free the amount of duty paid per gallon of the mixture is 2⅔d. as compared to 4d. per gallon in the case of mixtures containing dutiable benzol.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to prevent this unjustifiable increase in the cost of indigenous benzol?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I set out to offer some encouragement to the production of home developed oils, including benzol, which is a most important subsidiary product of the scientific process, in which progress is being made, of extracting oil from coal. I accept, as the basis of the policy, that there should be an incentive both upon consumers to buy and on producers to produce those commodities which are extracted from coal. Of course, if the House takes a different view as to the assistance to this development in the coal industry, then, I agree, my argument is invalid.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that it is an inducement to the consumer to buy to have 4½d. a gallon put on as the result of this tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Well, Sir, I think that the present relation between benzol mixture and ordinary petrol is likely to give the turn of the market to the benzol producer, and if, of course, the House deliberately considers that we ought not to give these incentives to the liquefaction of our coal deposits, that would be another matter, but that is our policy for good or ill, and, as a matter of principle, if you have a decision of that kind in principle you must face the reactions which result therefrom, whether they be pleasant or unpleasant.

    SUPER-TAX (ARREARS).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Super-tax due to be paid, but not paid, on the 1st April, 1928?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It is estimated that the total amount of Super-tax due but not paid at the 1st April, 1928, was about £14,500,000. The corresponding figure on 1st April, 1927, was £19,500,000.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking any steps Lo induce these wealthy taxpayers to pay their debts to the Exchequer, or is he going to continue to treat them with the greatest possible indulgence?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We are not often accused of that. Every step likely to be productive, which is within the power of the Board of Inland Revenue, is, and will be, continually employed.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if it is an ordinary

    1519
    workman who does not pay his Income Tax, he is taken to Court? Why should not these gentlemen be taken to Court?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think our methods of collecting the immense amount of direct taxation on these very high, graduated scales, are the admiration of all other countries, and the results are certainly much better than the results achieved anywhere else. I am not at all sure that the drumhead Court-martial which my hon. Friend suggests would actually be as fruitful in the results as the present system.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the wealthy taxpayer is usually a man with a big bank overdraft?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am very glad to have the Liberal view.

    CURRENCY NOTES.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when it is intended to transfer the currency notes to the Bank of England note issue; whether the paper and watermark is to be similar to that of the existing £5 note; whether the size has been decided upon; and whether the design of the Houses of Parliament on the back of the note is to be retained?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must ask my hon. Friend to await the legislation announced in the Budget Speech. I understand that it is contemplated that the size of the new notes will be the same as that of the existing £1 and 10s. currency notes, but this and other details of the issue will be a matter for the Bank of England.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman urge upon the Bank of England the point of view of size, as a matter of great convenience to numerous users of these notes?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not quite certain whether I am to urge it upon the Bank of England, in the sense of the size being magnified or reduced.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Cannot we have the same size which would suit the tens of thousands of users who possess holders at the present time?

  POST OFFICE.

    UNCLAIMED SAVINGS BANK DEPOSITS.
    Mr. DAYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the amount of unclaimed deposits in the hands of the Post Office. Savings Bank authorities; whether he will give particulars as to how many years these deposits remain with the Post Office Savings Bank before they are considered as unclaimed; and in what way the interest that accrues on these deposits is dealt with?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Transactions often take place on deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank after a long period of inactivity; at no point of time are the deposits regarded as unclaimed. It is impossible therefore to calculate the figure for which the hon. Member asks. As regards the last part of the question, in accordance with the Post Office Savings Bank Act, 1861, interest on deposits is calculated annually on all accounts with balances of £1 and over and is added to, and becomes part of, the principal money.
    Mr. DAY: Can the lion. Gentleman say if some accounts remain there for a great many years and if there are any transactions on them or are they considered as unclaimed?
    Mr. SAMUEL: If they remain unclaimed, the money is not taken away from the Post Office; it remains in the Post Office for the depositor when he applies.
    Mr. DAY: Do the Post Office take any steps to find a depositor or a depositor's heirs in respect of money which has not been claimed?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I do not think it is necessary.
    Mr. GARDNER: Do I understand that transactions annually take place in bookkeeping upon accounts which are never claimed?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Until the depositor turns up, the money is held at his disposal on the books of the Post Office.

    BURGLARIES AND ROBBERIES.
    Mr. BOWERMANasked the Postmaster-General the total value of the losses sustained by his Department during the past five years through

    1521
    burglaries and other robberies; the number of persons prosecuted in connection therewith; whether the premises involved are considered to be suitable for the transaction of Post Office business; and the steps which were taken to secure future protection to persons and property?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Mitchell-Thomson): The total amount of losses sustained by the Post Office during the past five years through burglaries and other robberies is £10,391 and 195 persons have been prosecuted in connection therewith. In no case were the premises involved considered unsuitable for Post Office business. Measures for the protection of post offices and the persons employed therein have been taken by the police, with whom my officers are in constant communication; but it is not in the public interest to make any statement as to their nature.
    Mr. AMMON: Do the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman include defalcations by Post Office officials?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: No, I think not. I was only asked for figures of burglaries and robberies.

    INLAND TELEGRAPH SERVICE (REPORT).
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Postmaster-General whether, having regard to the conclusions arrived at in the Hardman-Lever Report on the telegraph service, he has yet decided what steps to take in order to carry out the general recommendations of that Report?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Wells) on the 27th of March.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that his answer is very unsatisfactory, and can he not give a promise that the result will be known very soon?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I am not aware that my answers are ever unsatisfactory.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Can the right hon. Gentleman not give us a reply which is more definite than the last answer which he gave to the House, and say when that conclusion will be made known?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I said in my last answer that certain matters will be given effect to and that others were under consideration. I am at this moment receiving representations from various quarters, and next week I am meeting a deputation from the Press. As long as these matters are under consideration, I cannot give a more definite answer.

  ELECTRICITY ACT, 1919 (COMPENSATION CLAIMS).
  Mr. KELLYasked the Minister of Transport the number of claims made for compensation under the Electricity Act, 1919, for loss of employment by reason of the closing down of electricity stations?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have been asked to reply. Referees have been appointed by the Minister of Labour under Section 16 of the Electricity Supply Act, 1919, to deal with claims for compensation covering 200 employés of 19 undertakings. The majority of the claims were on the ground of loss of employment through the closing down of electricity generating stations. Other claims, of which I have no information, may have been settled by agreement between the parties.
  Mr. KELLY: Has the hon. Gentleman received any representations as to the difficulties with which people are met when making these claims?
  Mr. BETTERTON: No, Sir.

  AGRICULTURE.

    ROYAL VETERINARY COLLEGE, LONDON.
    Captain CROOKSHANKasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the state of the buildings of the Royal Veterinary College in London, some of which have been condemned by the London County Council, and to the consequent difficulties with which the college is faced in carrying on the work of assisting agriculture through the spread of veterinary science; whether he is aware of the grants made by the Governments of all other European countries towards veterinary science; and whether it is the intention of the Government to make any grants

    1523
    from the Development Fund, the Empire Marketing Board Fund, or from any other funds at their disposal, to assist in rebuilding the Royal Veterinary College in London, and to help the further spread of veterinary knowledge?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): I am well acquainted with the unsatisfactory condition of the buildings of the Royal Veterinary College and of the consequent difficulties under which the college labours; both my predecessor and I have conferred with the governors of the college on the subject. The governors are endeavouring to obtain the necessary funds to rebuild the college, and the Ministry has promised a grant of £35,000 on a £ for basis towards the fund which the governors are raising. I have no exact information as to the extent of the State grants made to similar institutions on the Continent, but my hon. and gallant Friend may rest assured that I appreciate the importance of this subject, and will do everything in my power to assist the college.

    FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
    Sir HARRY HOPEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether in view of the danger of foot-and-mouth disease being introduced into the country by chilled meat and by hay and straw packing materials from countries where the disease is known to exist, and in consideration of the effects of such a risk, he will appoint a small commission of skilled persons to devise and report upon measures for diminishing such a danger?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The possible introduction of the virus of foot-and-mouth disease in hay and straw used for packing goods was considered by the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Departmental Committees which were appointed in 1922 and 1924. Neither Committee recommended any fundamental alteration of the existing Orders, but the latter Committee recommended certain modifications which were adopted. The Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee is investigating the behaviour of foot-and-mouth virus in animal products and on inanimate objects in the hope of discovering the means by which the virus is introduced to this country and methods of excluding it. The Committee is composed of men of science and of technical administrative experi-
    1524
    ence, who have studied this problem for the past three years, and I can think of no body of men better equipped for the purpose.
    Sir H. HOPE: Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that, if this dangerous packing material were prohibited, an alternative kind of packing in the form of wood shavings would be instituted, and that thereby the risk from infection would be saved.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I do not think that we should be justified in imposing this serious disturbance upon many industries which import this packing material, unless we had overwhelming evidence that, in fact, it was causing the disease. The Committee were fully able to report in that sense if they were satisfied that it was the cause.

  EGYPT (BRITISH WARNING).
  Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD(by private notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether anything has happened in Egypt in the last 24 hours which he would like to communicate to the House.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): The reply of the Egyptian Government to the Note which I read yesterday has not yet been received. There is, therefore, nothing for me to add to the statement which I then made to the House.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the very categorical statement in the newspapers about British warships going to Egypt, and is he in a position to say whether these reports are accurate or not?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I should prefer to confine my statement to what I have already said to the House. If the Leader of the Opposition desires to press me further, I will reply. I do not want to put an undue responsibility upon the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think I am called upon to say more in reply to the question.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: With very great respect, this is not the first time that warships have gone to Egypt. It is no new thing. It seems to

  1525
  be reported in all the newspapers, and why the secrecy on the part of the right hon. Gentleman?
  Mr. THURTLE: Are we to take it from the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman has taken up on this occasion, that he is going to regard any question directed to him from Benches, other than the Front Bench, as being of no importance at all?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I hope nothing in my attitude now, or at any time, will give that impression to the House.
  Mr. SAKLATVALA: Does the right hon. Gentleman imply that, if it were made public that British warships are going to Egypt, public opinion would be that it is a very wrong thing to do?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: No. His Majesty's Government announced in the Note which they delivered to the Egyptian Government that, unless the Egyptian Government could give them the assurance for which they asked, they reserved to themselves the right to take such action as may be necessary. I think it more courteous to say nothing more until at least we have given the opportunity to the Egyptian Government to reply. That is the sole reason why I ask not to be pressed for a further statement.
  Mr. SAKLATVALA: Is the despatch of warships also one of the acts of courtesy towards the Egyptian Government?

SHOPS (SUNDAY TRADING RESTRICTION).
Sir FRANK SANDERSON: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to restrict the opening of shops on Sunday."
I have been asked by the representatives of a large number of influential associations to introduce this Bill, but, before consenting to do so, I made it my business to go very closely into the pros and cons concerning it. Nobody who considers the position as it is to-day could imagine for a moment that it would now be possible totally to abolish Sunday trading. Conditions are such that any ill-advised attempt to impose absolute closing of shops on Sunday would be
1526
doomed to failure. Indeed, it is futile to attempt to legislate in advance of public opinion. But this Bill is merely to provide for the restriction of Sunday trading within reasonable limits, and as such, I regard it as a social reform felt, to be long overdue. I, therefore, ask the House for that courteous consideration and indulgence usually accorded to the First Reading of a Bill. It has behind it the vast majority of the retail trading community, the whole of the religious community, and, so far as I have been able to ascertain, a very large body of public opinion. Indeed, it has been expressed on many occasions that the growth of Sunday trading is jeopardising our Sabbath day of rest. It will perhaps assist hon. Members in considering the merits of this Bill if I refer to legislation which has led up to its drafting. It may not be appreciated generally that there has been no Bill to restrict Sunday trading passed through this House and placed on the Statute Book since the reign of Charles II, when a Bill was passed making Sunday trading illegal, and a fine of 5s. was imposed for each offence. That still remains the law of this country, save for an Act of the London County Council which specifies that street traders are only permitted to trade under licences issued by the London borough councils, and in many districts those licences are issued for only six days a week.
It will be seen, therefore, that this evil of Sunday trading is one which remains unchecked. If I may, I will give a few figures to illustrate my point that the present Act is entirely obsolete and unfitted for present day conditions. In Cardiff there are over 1,000 shops open every Sunday, and in the City of Hull in 1926 there were no fewer than 18,698 convictions. Indeed, the shopkeepers pay their fine of 5s. weekly and regard it rather in the nature of a licence. Hon. Members must appreciate the changed conditions which prevail compared with those of 250 years ago in the reign of Charles II, when this fine was first imposed. In parts of the London area 90 to 95 per cent. of the shops are open for at any rate a part of Sunday, and in many provincial towns one in every 200 of the total population is actually engaged in Sunday trading. Altogether there are 250,000 shops which are open on Sunday. Another menace

1527
which is growing up in our midst is the Sunday hawker, and it must not he understood that these hawkers are individual traders who are attempting to earn an honest living, because in the majority of cases these hawkers are supported and financed by syndicates.
I claim that the Bill which I propose to introduce represents the greatest common measure of agreement and reconciles the conflicting interests involved. It is evident that some measure of Sunday trading in certain commodities must be permitted, and so long as public houses are open on Sunday, so long is it necessary that other places for obtaining refreshment should be provided. Therefore, provision is made for exemption accordingly, as also to permit the sale of newspapers and periodicals, medicines, and medical and surgical appliances. The Bill also provides for the sale of many other necessary commodities during specified hours. I wish at this point to make it quite clear that this Bill will not abolish Sunday trading, but merely restrict it. In the short time at my disposal it is not possible to go through the details of the Bill, but the chief obstacles encountered in the past have been met, I believe, to the satisfaction of all concerned. If, however, this condition of Sunday trading remains unchecked, competition among the poor shopkeepers will be such that it will be necessary for them to be tied to their shops all and every Sunday. Hon. Members who enjoy their game of golf or their tennis or motoring on a Sunday—and quite rightly—will, I am sure, be the first to come to the assistance of their less fortunate brothers, for whom, through the tyranny of a practice forced upon them in the struggle for existence, Sunday brings no armistice in the battle of life. This is essentially a non-party matter, and I hope the House will give favourable consideration to the Bill.
Mr. AUSTIN HOPKINSON: On a point of Order. When an hon. Member is introducing a Bill under the 10 minutes rule, may we have your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to what the position of affairs is if his introduction takes longer than 10 minutes?
Mr. SPEAKER: In such a case I should deal with the matter. In this case the hon. Member has kept exactly, I do not say to the rule, but to the understanding of the House in regard to what is called a 10 minutes Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Frank Sanderson, Sir Herbert Nield, Sir Arthur Shirley Benn, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Mr. Ammon, Mr. Rosslyn Mitchell, Mr. Robert Morrison and Mr. Crawfurd.

SHOPS (SUNDAY TRADING RESTRICTION).
  SHOPS (SUNDAY TRADING RESTRICTION) BILL,
  "to restrict the opening of shops on Sunday," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]

SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT).
4.0 p.m.
Mr. DIXEY: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921."
I move this entirely on my own responsibility, and in no sense of hostility to the present Government. Owing to recent inquiries which have been held under the Safeguarding of Industries Act, I have come to the conclusion that if safeguarding of industries is to be carried on at all, it should be on a practical basis. The trouble at the present time is that industries, owing to the detail of the White Paper, have the greatest difficulty in obtaining the safeguarding for which the Act was devised. Therefore, this Bill will deal with three things which are very shortly these: First of all, there will be a new definition of dumping, in regard to which I have no doubt I shall have the sympathy of the Labour party, namely, that all goods shall be regarded as damped goods when they are produced abroad under conditions where wages are less or hours worked are longer than those prevailing in this country. I shall be very interested to see how many members of the Labour party go into the Lobby to support this Clause. The second Clause deals with the powers of the Board of Trade. Under the present White Paper,

1529
and under the present Safeguarding of Industries Act, although an industry has satisfied every condition in the White Paper, the Board of Trade has the power, at its discretion, to refuse to allow that particular industry to go to a Committee of Inquiry under the Act. I suggest that if an industry satisfies the conditions of a very difficult White Paper, and goes to all the trouble of taking up the matter, it should, as a matter of course, be entitled to go to the Committee of Inquiry under the provisions of the Act.
The third point is that dealing with the White Paper itself. I feel positive that all fair-minded people will support this, because whether they like Safeguarding or not, they will agree that if you have a form of legislation such as Safeguarding, people ought not to have to waste time and money to go before committees of inquiry and then be turned down on the ground, for instance, of not being a substantial industry. There is the case of the iron and steel trade. That trade has satisfied every condition of the White Paper, but has been turned down by the Cabinet Committee, because it is too substantial an industry. Then take the granite trade. In spite of the fact that it satisfied every condition of the White Paper that it was suffering from foreign competition, it was turned down on the one ground that it was not a substantial industry. Members of the House of Commons must surely come to the conclusion that such a procedure is absurd, and I do ask with great confidence, that to whatever party they belong Members will support the introduction of this Bill, which is a fair and proper Bill.
Mr. CRAWFURD: I rise the purpose of opposing the introduction of this Bill, and I do so on two grounds. The first is concerned with the merits of the Bill, and the second with the circumstances under which it is brought before the House. The hon. Member who introduced the Bill said it contained three Clauses. He described the first two, but he omitted to describe the third, much to my regret. He told us that, with regard to the second Clause, he proposed to dispense with the powers which the Board of Trade at present hold under the terms of the White Paper. He said that at present, even if an industry could satisfy all the conditions of the White Paper, the Board of Trade
1530
could still prevent it from going to an inquiry. I think he is a little confused. May I ask him how the Board of Trade can know whether an industry has satisfied all the conditions of a White Paper until it has been to the inquiry? What, of course, does happen is that the Board of Trade has to be satisfied that the particular industry can make out a prima facie case for an inquiry.
My principal objection to the Bill on its merits is contained in what the hon. Member has told us about Clause 1. As far as I understand, he is going to alter the definition of dumping, so that in future goods will be regarded as dumped if they are produced in countries where—to put it in a phrase—conditions of labour, hours and wages, are worse than they are in this country. In other words, the hon. Member, as far as I can understand, invites us to take measures of a protective nature which will produce in this country conditions similar to those in other protected countries, which, by his own showing, have conditions of life worse than here.
Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that that is the exact phraseology used by the official Opposition in regard to this question?
Mr. CRAWFURD: The hon. and gallant Member will not expect me to carry in my head all the phrases used by the official Opposition, but I would very briefly remind the House that the best conditions in the world are in the largest free trade areas of the world. If you take European countries, just as those countries are Free Trade, you will find conditions of life are high, and as they become more Protectionist, the conditions of life become worse and worse. [HON. MEMBERS: "Australia!"] I said Europe. To be logical the hon. Member should have said that the safeguarding duties should have been higher as the country grew more Protectionist. On its merits, I think there is no case in this Bill, but if there were I think the House would be justified, and, in fact, as a duty would have to reject this Bill for this reason. We all know where the hon. Member stands, but we do want to know where the Government are. We are prepared to meet the Government if they go to the country on a Protectionist policy, but I, personally, object to Protection being

1531
brought in, or an attempt being made to bring it in, by private Members. We want to know where the Government are. We know, of course, to some extent. We know that the question has become more urgent. The position is rather like that described by Macaulay:
"Those behind cried 'Forward!'
And those in front cried 'Back!'
It seems to me that on a question of this gravity this House should be entitled to
expect a policy from the Government, and not from a private Member. Therefore, on these two grounds I ask the House to reject the Motion.
Question put,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921."
The House divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 133.

Division No. 93.]

AYES.

[4.12 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Albery, Irving James

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Preston, William

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Hamilton, Sir George

Price, Major C. W. M.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Hammersley, S. S.

Radford, E. A.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Raine, Sir Walter

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Harland, A,

Ramsden, E.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Harrison, G. J. C.

Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

Berry, Sir George

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Remnant, Sir James

Bethel, A.

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Rice, Sir Frederick

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)

Roberts. E. H. G. (Flint)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Ropner, Major L.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hills, Major John Waller

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Hilton, Cecil

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

Salmon, Major I.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Burman, J. B.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Campbell, E. T.

Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

Sandon, Lord

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Hurd, Percy A.

Shepperson, E. W.

Christie, J. A.

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Skelton, A. N.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Iveagh, Countess of

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Couper, J. B.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Jephcott, A. R.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Kinloch-Cooke, sir Clement

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Crott, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lamb, J. Q.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Long, Major Eric

Templeton, W. P.

Dixey, A. C.

Looker, Herbert William

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Drewe, C.

Lougher, Lewis

Tinne, J. A.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lumley, L, R,

Waddington, R.

Ellis, R. G.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

MacIntyre, Ian

Watts, Dr. T.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

McLean Major A.

Wayland, Sir William A.

Fermoy, Lord

Macmillan, Captain H.

Wells, S. R.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

Fraser, Captain Ian

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Frece, Sir Walter de

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Womersley, W. J.

Gower, Sir Robert

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Grace, John

Nelson, Sir Frank

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Nield, Rt. Hon. sir Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Major Braithwaite and Mr. Smedley Crooke.

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Bondfield, Margaret

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Amnion, Charles George

Briant, Frank

Cape, Thomas

Baker, Walter

Broad, F. A.

Charleton, H. C

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Bromfield, William

Cluse, W. S.

Barnes, A.

Bromley, J.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Barr, J.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Compton, Joseph

Connolly, M.

Lawson, John James

Smillie, Robert

Cove, w. G.

Lindley, F. W.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Livingstone, A. M.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lowth, T.

Snell, Harry

Day, Harry

Lunn, William

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Dunnico, H.

Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Edge, Sir William

Mackindar, W.

Stamford, T. W.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

MacLaren, Andrew

Stephen, Campbell

England, Colonel A.

Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Gardner, J. P.

Malone, Major P. B.

Strauss, E. A.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

March, S.

Sutton, J. E.

Gibbins, Joseph

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Palsiey)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Gillett, George M.

Montague, Frederick

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Gosling, Harry

Morris, R. H.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Murnin, H.

Thurtle, Ernest

Griffith, F. Kingsley

Naylor, T. E.

Tinker, John Joseph

Groves, T.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Tomlinson, R. P.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Oliver, George Harold

Townend, A. E.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Owen, Major G.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Hardie, George D.

Palin, John Henry

Viant, S. P.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Hayday, Arthur

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Potts, John S.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Hollins, A.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wellock, Wilfred

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Riley, Ben

Westwood, J.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Ritson, J.

Whiteley, W.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Wiggins, William Martin

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Scrymgeour, E.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Sexton, James

Windsor, Walter

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Kelly, W. T.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Kennedy, T.

Shinwell, E.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Mr. Crawfurd and Sir Robert Hamilton.

Lansbury, George

Sitch, Charles H.

Lawrence, Susan

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

First Resolution read a Second time.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Dixey, Major Holt, Captain Streatfeild, Major Braithwaite, Mr. Everard, Mr. Thompson, Sir Frank Sanderson, Mr. Crooke, Lieut.-Colonel Shaw and Mr. Lloyd.

SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT).
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT) BILL,
  "to amend the Safeguarding of Industries Act, 1921," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
Sir Edmund Turton reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed him to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Racecourse Betting Bill); Mr. James Brown to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Betting (Juvenile Messengers) (Scotland) Bill) and also in respect of the Education (Scotland) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.

REGENT'S CANAL AND DOCK COMPANY (WARWICK CANALS PURCHASE) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,
Rating and Valuation Bill, with an Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for authorising the Mid Kent Water Company to acquire lands for the protection of their waterworks; for conferring further powers upon the company; and for other purposes." [Mid Kent Water Bill [Lords.]
Mid Kent Water Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  REPORT [24th April].
  Resolutions reported,

  WAYS AND MEANS.
    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.

      CONTINUATION OF DUTY ON TEA (CUSTOMS).
      1. "That the customs duty chargeable on tea until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, shall continue to be charged on and after that date until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, that is to say:—
      Tea ……the pound fourpence.
      And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    HYDROCARBON OILS.
    2. "That—
    (1) there shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be charged—

    (a) on all petroleum oils, coal tar, and oils produced from coal, shale, peat, or any other bituminous substance, and all liquid hydrocarbons imported into Great Britain or Northern Ireland on or after the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, or so imported before that, date but landed therein on or after that date, a customs duty at the rate of fourpence a gallon;

    (b) on all petroleum oils which on the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, are in the ownership or possession of any person who holds more than ten thousand gallons thereof, but not including any such oils which are shown to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to have been intended for use by the person in whose ownership or possession they were and not for sale, and to have been used by that person before the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, an excise duty at the rate of fourpence a gallon;

    Provided that a rebate at the rate of fourpence a gallon shall be allowed from the aforesaid duty of customs and excise, as the case may be, on the delivery for home consumption of any hydrocarbon oils other than oils of which forty per cent. or more by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding two hundred and thirty-five degrees centigrade;
    (2) in the case of any hydrocarbon oils in or removed to a refinery, the foregoing duties shall be charged on the delivery of any article from the refinery and shall he the same as those payable on like articles on importation, and there shall be allowed the same rebate as would he allowed on importation."

    SUGAR (CUSTOMS).
    3. "That on and after the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight—
    (a) In lieu of the full duties of customs now chargeable on sugar of a polarisation not exceeding ninety-eight degrees there shall be charged the following reduced duties:—

    s.

    d.

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding ninety-seven and not exceeding ninety-eight degrees the cwt.

    8

    7

    Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding seventy-six degrees the cwt.

    4

    6

    and intermediate duties varying between 4s. 6d. and 8s. 7d. on sugar of a polarisation exceeding seventy-six degrees and not exceeding ninety-seven degrees:
    (b) In lieu of the rate now chargeable the preferential rate of Customs duty chargeable in respect of sugar of a polarisation exceeding ninety-eight degrees shall be the full rate of Customs duty for the time being in force reduced by the amounts following:

    s.

    d.

    If the polarisation does not exceed ninety-nine degrees the cwt.

    6

    10.8

    If the polarisation exceeds ninety-nine degrees the cwt.

    5

    10

    (c) For the existing amounts of the reductions to be made for arriving at the preferential rates of duty chargeable in respect of molasses, glucose, and saccharin here shall he substituted the increased reductions following, that is to say:

    Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which en snot be completely tested by the polariscope) if the sweetening matter contained therein—

    s.

    d.

    Amounts to 70 per cent. or upwards the cwt.

    3

    8½

    Exceeds 50 per cent. but does not amount to 70 per cent. the cwt.

    2

    8

    Does not exceed 50 per cent. the cwt.

    1

    3½

    Glucose—

    Solid the cwt.

    3

    8½

    Liquid the cwt.

    2

    8

    Saccharin the ounce

    1

    10½

    Provided that in the application of this Resolution to any duty chargeable on manufactured or prepared goods under Section seven of the Finance Act, 1901, the first day of July shall be substituted for the twenty-fifth day of April.
    And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SUGAR (DRAWBACKS AND ALLOWANCES).
    4. "That, on and after the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-

    1551
    eight, drawbacks and allowances in the following cases shall be allowed and made in accordance with the following provisions in substitution for the drawbacks and allowances which may now be allowed and made in the like cases.
    Provided that—

    (a) the reduction of the rates of any drawbacks and allowances shall not have effect in relation to any goods as respects which it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that duty was paid at the rates in force before the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight;

    (b) the grant of a specified amount of drawback in respect of a specified weight of any article includes the grant of a proportionately less amount of drawback in respect of any less weight.

    A. Drawbacks on Sugar.
    In the case of duty-paid sugar (including sugar produced from duty-paid sugar or molasses) which has passed a refinery in Great Britain or Northern Ireland—
    Drawback shall be allowed in accordance with the provisions of the following table:

    Nature of Sugar.

    Degree of Polarisation.

    Rate or Amount of Drawback.

    Sugar produced from material on which the full duties of customs have been paid.

    Of a polarisation exceeding 98°.

    Where the rate of duty paid was 11s. 8d. the cwt., a drawback at the rate of 11s. 8d. the cwt.

    Where a rate of duty less than 11s. 8d. the cwt. was paid, a drawback at the rate of 9s. 4d. the cwt.

    Of a polarisation not exceeding 98°.

    A drawback equal to the duty chargeable on sugar of the like polarisation.

    Sugar produced from material on which a preferential rate of customs duty or an excise duty has been paid.

    Of a polarisation exceeding 99°.

    Where the rate of duty paid was 5s. 10d. the cwt., a drawback at the rate of 5s. 10d. the cwt.

    Where a rate less than 5s. 10d. the cwt. has been paid, a drawback at the rate of 5s. 0⅔d. the cwt.

    Of a polarisation not exceeding 99°.

    A drawback equal to the duty chargeable on sugar of the like polarisation.

    B. Drawbacks on Molasses.
    1. In the case of Molasses (including Sugar and all extracts from sugar which
    1552
    cannot be completely tested by the Polariscope) produced in Great Britain or Northern Ireland—
    Drawback shall be allowed in accordance with the provisions of the following table in respect of any such Molasses which—

    (a) is exported or is shipped or deposited in a bonded warehouse for use as ships' stores;

    (b) is delivered, subject to the Regulations of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, to a licensed dealer for use in the manufacture of spirits or yeast, or to a person for use in the manufacture of yeast in premises used solely for that purpose;

    (c) is used in the brewing of beer deposited in a bonded warehouse for export;

    (d) appears to the satisfaction of the Treasury to have been used in the manufacture or preparation in Great Britain or Northern Ireland of goods, other than beer, which are exported or are shipped or deposited in a bonded warehouse for use as ships' stores.

    Amount of drawback.

    Nature of the Molasses.

    Produced from imported material on which the full customs duty has been paid.

    Produced from material on which customs duty at a preferential rate or excise duty bag been paid

    Produced in a sugar factory in Great Britain and Northern Ireland from beet grown there.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    If containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter and weighing not less than fourteen pounds to the gallon—the cwt.

    2

    3

    1

    2½

    An amount equal to the duty paid.

    If containing more than 50 per cent. but not more than 60 per cent, of sweetening matter—the cwt.

    3

    4½

    1

    9½

    If containing more than 60 per cent. but not more than 70 per cent, of
    sweeetening matter—the cwt.

    4

    6

    2

    5

    If containing more than 70 per cent. but not more than 80 per cent. of sweetening matter—the cwt.

    6

    2

    3

    4

    If containing more than 80 per cent. of sweetening matter—the cwt.

    7

    0

    3

    9½

    (2) In the case of Molasses (including Sugar and all extracts from Sugar which cannot be completely tested by the polariscope) on which duty has been paid on importation—
    Drawback of an amount equal to the duty payable on the importation of the molasses shall be allowed in respect of any quantity of such molasses—

    (a) which is used in the brewing of beer deposited in a bonded warehouse for export;

    (b) which appears to the satisfaction of the Treasury to have been used in the manufacture or preparation in Great Britain or Northern Ireland of goods, other than beer, which are exported or are shipped or deposited in a bonded warehouse for use as ships' stores.

    C. Allowances on Molasses.
    An allowance shall be made in respect of molasses produced in Great Britain or Northern Ireland and used solely for the purpose of food for stock in accordance with the following provisions:

    Nature of Molasses.

    Amount of Allowance.

    —

    —

    (1) Molasses produced from material on which duty has been paid.

    An amount equal to the drawback payable on the exportation of the like article.

    (2) Molasses on which an excise duty has been paid.

    An amount equal to the duty paid.

    And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BRITISH CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS.
    5. "That, as from the twenty-eight day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, negative cinematograph films which are certified by the Board of Trade to satisfy the requirements of Sub-section (3) of Section twenty-seven of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927 (which prescribes what films shall be deemed to be British films for the purposes of that Act), and parts of any films so certified, shall, for the purpose of duties of Customs chargeable on cinematograph films, be treated as if they were blank film.
    And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BRITISH WINES (EXCISE).
    6. "That the rate of the duty of excise now chargeable on sweets shall, on and after the twenty-fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, be increased to one shilling and sixpence for every gallon.
    And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    MECHANICAL LIGHTERS (CUSTOMS).
    7. "That as from the twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, there shall be charged on the importation into Great Britain Or Northern Ireland of any mechanical lighter or of any component part of any such lighter (other than a flint) a customs duty of sixpence.
    In this Resolution the expression 'mechanical lighter' means any mechanical or chemical contrivance which is portable and is intended for producing a spark or flame, whether by itself or when brought into contact with gas."

    MECHANICAL LIGHTERS (EXCISE).
    8. "That as from the twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, there shall be charged on every mechanical lighter manufactured in the United Kingdom which is complete or which could he made complete by the addition of a flint, and on every such lighter sent out in an incomplete state front the premises of a manufacturer of such lighters an excise duty of sixpence.
    In this Resolution the expression 'mechanical lighter' means any mechanical or chemical contrivance which is portable and is intended for producing a spark or flame, whether by itself or when brought into contact with gas."

    BUTTONS.
    9. "That during a period of five years beginning on the twenty-eighth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, there shall be charged on the importation into Great Britain or Northern Ireland of buttons made of any material, and whether finished or unfinished, of a description commonly used for the fastening o decorating of wearing apparel or household linen, not being buttons forming part of any other article, a duty of customs of an amount equal to thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the value thereof."
    LICENCE DUTY ON ARTICULATED MOTOR VEHICLES.
    10. "That, as from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, where a mechanically propelled vehicle used for drawing a trailer has the trailer attached to it by partial super-imposition, the vehicle and trailer shall, for the purpose of determining the rate of the licence duty chargeable under the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1920, be treated as if they were a single vehicle used for drawing a trailer."
    INCOME TAX.

      CHARGE OF TAX.
      11. "That—
      (a) Income Tax for the year 1928–29 shall be charged at the standard rate of four shillings in the pound, and in the case of an individual whose total income from all sources exceeds two thousand pounds, at the following rates in respect

      1555
      of the excess over two thousand pounds:—

      For every pound of the first five hundred pounds of the excess.

      Four shillings and ninepence.

      For every pound of the next five hundred pounds of the excess.

      Five shillings.

      For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess.

      Five shillings and sixpence.

      For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess.

      Six shillings and threepence.

      For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess.

      Seven shillings.

      For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess.

      Seven shillings and sixpence.

      For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess.

      Eight shillings.

      For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess.

      Eight shillings and sixpence.

      For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess.

      Nine shillings.

      For every pound of the next ten thousand pounds of the excess.

      Nine shillings and sixpence.

      For every pound of the remainder of the excess.

      Ten shillings.

      (b) The same Super-tax shall be charged for the year 1928–29 as was charged for the year 1927–28.
      (c) All such enactments as had effect with respect to the Income Tax and Super-tax charged for the year 1927–28, shall, subject to the provisions of any enactments which were expressed to come into operation on the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, or to apply in relation to Income Tax or Super-tax for the year beginning on that day, have effect with respect to the Income Tax and Super-tax charged for the year 1928–29.
      (d) The annual value of any property which has been adopted for the purpose of Income Tax under Schedules A and B for the year 1927–28 shall he taken as the annual value of that property for the same purpose for the year 1928–29:
      Provided that the foregoing provision relating to annual value shall not apply to lands, tenements, and hereditaments in the administrative county of London with respect to which the valuation list under the Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869, is by that Act made conclusive for the purposes of Income Tax.
      And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    OLD SINKING FUND.
    12. "That the old Sinking Fund for the years ending respectively on the thirty-first
    1556
    day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, and the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, shall, instead of being issued to the National Debt Commissioners, be carried to a suspense account for the purpose of being subsequently applied in such manner as Parliament may hereafter determine."

    TRANSFER TO EXCHEQUER OF PARTS OF ASSETS OF CURRENCY NOTE REDEMPTION ACCOUNT.
    13. "That such part of the assets belonging to the Currency Note Redemption Account as is, in the opinion of the Treasury, having regard to the market value of those assets, in excess of the requirements of the Account shall, as the Treasury determines, be realised and the proceeds thereof paid into the Exchequer."
    Mr. BARR: I beg to move, in line 5, to leave out the word "fourpence" and to insert instead thereof the words "one penny."
    In asking for a reduction of the Tea Duty from 4d. to 1d. I am asking for a concession which would be universal in its application. This is not an optional duty, imposed on a luxury article, but it is a duty which affects the great mass of the wage earners of the country, because it is a duty on an article of universal consumption. I have here one or two figures showing the great increase in the use of tea in this country. In 1911 the imports of tea retained for home consumption amounted to 293,301,000 lbs., and in 1927 the quantity had risen to 416,152,000 lbs. The consumption per head of the population in that same period of 16 years had risen from an average of 6.48 lb. per head to 8.85 lb., an increase of 35 per cent. Therefore I claim, in the first place, that the reduction for which I am asking would be universal in its application. My second point is this reduction would bring great benefits to the poorest of the people. This is a flat-rate duty, levied at the same rate on cheap tea as on dear tea, on the tea of the rich as on the tea which is more in use amongst the poor. Many of the poor, unable to purchase more substantial forms of food, resort to tea. Further, the duty falls heaviest upon those on whom the economic pressure is greatest. A man with a large family pays out of all proportion to one who has a small family or no family at all; the amount paid is regulated not by the capacity to pay but by the size of the household, and I

    1557
    think that in that way the duty conflicts with the Chancellor's maxim of aiding the producer.
    In the next place, the reduction would lighten the burden of indirect taxation, the greater part of which always falls on the poorest. I know it is argued in favour of indirect taxation that all classes of the community ought to bear their share of the national burdens, but even if this duty were reduced from 4d. to 1d., that burden would in manifold ways still mainly rest on the poorer classes. I know it will be argued that the proportion of indirect taxation to direct taxation has fallen in recent years. I think the figures which the Chancellor gave us last year, although they were not by any means beyond dispute, showed that the proportion of indirect taxation to direct taxation was 42½ per cent. before the War and that it had now been reduced to 37 per cent. Even if that were so, the fact would not carry weight with us on this side of the House, because our object is to abolish indirect taxation as far as possible and to substitute direct taxation therefor. Such a duty as this places on the poor a burden which ought to be borne through direct taxation imposed upon those who are better able to bear it.
    Then I would point out that this Budget itself in many ways increases indirect taxation. It may be argued that some of the new taxes are luxury taxes, but, even if that be so, the Chancellor betrayed his realisation of the fact that he was adding to the burdens of consumers through indirect taxation by giving as a reason for remitting one farthing per pound of the sugar duty that it would redress the fiscal burdens being placed on consumers by the kerosene duty and the like. I would press upon him to consider whether by retaining this duty and similar duties the pressure of taxation is not still being allowed to fall with the heaviest weight on the poor, whether the burden put upon them is not out of all proportion to the burden upon other classes of the community, and whether he is not in that way curtailing their ability to purchase the necessaries of life. The relief I am proposing will admittedly reach the consumer. Chancellors and Governments have admitted that in the past. In 1925 the right hon. Gentleman himself admitted quite frankly that the reduction
    1558
    of 4d. introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member far Collie Valley (Mr. Snowden) had reached the consumer, and the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is now the Minister of Agriculture, made a similar admission. It is quite true that in the fluctuation of prices you may not always be able to put your finger on the exact remission you have made, but it is still there affecting prices and benefiting the consumer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget statement spoke of the steps he had taken to see that the reduction of ¼d. per lb. on sugar would reach the consumer. The right hon. Gentleman told us about the conference he had had with the sugar refiners, and he said that in a few days the benefit would come to the consumer.
    In the next place, the relief I am proposing will be immediate, and not in October, 1929. It is a relief in which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see the work of their own hands and would reap the harvest they had sown, whereas in the other cases they will have to apply themselves that old phrase,
    "One soweth and another reapeth."
    It is a relief that would be substantial. It may be argued that what I am dealing with involves only a small sum in each household, but the Colwyn Report is adverse to the continuance of these imposts, and they point out that the sum spent per head on the tea consumed by the population in this country in 1925–26 was 2s. 7d., and that that was not a negligible figure. If you reckon it up in a household of a man, his wife, and three children, it means a matter of 11s. or 12s., and they say quite distinctly that that is a substantial consideration. Of course, that is on an average. There are far heavier burdens of that kind in the case of large families where the expenditure would run into a good many pounds, and in those cases the relief would be substantial.
    It would also be a relief in the case of a wholesome and a harmless beverage. I know I am now treading on tender ground, because the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) has assured us that the evils brought about by tea drinking are out of all proportion and far greater than those

    1559
    brought about by strong drink. If the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire had been in his place, no doubt he would have responded to that argument, and he would probably have told us how tea drinking fills our gaols and leads to in-numerable breaches of the peace. In temperance circles we are often blamed because it is said that we put forward no constructive policy, and that our policy is a negative one with no practical element in it. While I recognise the value of a frontal attack on the great evil of intemperance, I count of equal value a constructive policy, and I may say that in the city of Glasgow we have had for years a policy of opening tea restaurants, and I do not think any city can compare or compete with what has been done there in that respect. In my view, that has been a very positive advance towards temperance itself, and it has proved a counteracting influence in regard to the evils to which I have referred.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: This is not a teetotal gathering.
    Mr. BARR: I am not ashamed of what I am saying even if it were a teetotal gathering. I am putting temperance on a ground upon which it might very well be supported by every Member of this House. What I am proposing is a relief that can he given. The total revenue to be produced by all these taxes on the new way of reckoning is estimated to be £727,381,000. The total produced in 1927 by this 4d. duty on tea was £5,952,000. I would like to point out that that sum is a mere bagatelle of the whole revenue. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the will, he could soon see the way to do what I am asking. The right hon. Gentleman is a man who laughs at impossibilities and says, "It shall be done." If the right hon. Gentleman had been in his place, I would have commended to him as I do to the Financial Secretary, the words of a well-known philosopher,
    "Thou oughtest and therefore thou canst."
    The treatment of this question for a long period in the history of this country has been far from creditable to this House. I think this is the diamond jubilee of proposals to reduce the duty on tea. On the 5th of November, 1868, Jahn Bright, speaking in Edinburgh, first
    1560
    advanced his scheme for a free breakfast table, and he showed how it could be done without disturbing the finances of the country. He said:
    "You may rely upon it that if the people say that these taxes are unnecessary and unjust, and if the people protest against them and resolve to get rid of them, you will not find the slightest difficulty in finding a Chancellor of the Exchequer who will do the work."
    It is only fair to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that this year he is only doing what he foreshadowed last year. It will be remembered that last year the right hon. Gentleman said he could not see any prospect of lowering the Tea Duty this year, but at the same time he said that he had always regarded the reduction and ultimate extinction of the Tea Duty as an important object of our fiscal policy. The right hon. Gentleman also told us that he had always had the idea of a free breakfast table before him, and that the remission of the Tea Duty had been a long-cherished ambition with him. May I point out that the poor cannot live and thrive on the ambitions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has an unfortunate habit of changing his ambitions from time to time and who now seems to be pledged to brushing aside all his former ambitions. I will not say that his path is paved with good intentions, but it is strewn with noble ambitions. The right hon. Gentleman has had a heroic struggle against his better-self, and it has often ended in the defeat of his better-self. His ambitions have been crushed out by new ambitions, new friendships and new interests, and he can now say in the words of Shakespeare:
    "My stronger guilt defeats my strong intent."
    I should like to have given the right hon. Gentleman one last opportunity of repentance and of putting into the shape of some practical achievement some of his ambitions so that he would not go down in history as the man of high resolves but unaccomplished achievements of whom Young writes:
    "At thirty man suspects himself a fool;
    Knows it at forty and reforms his plan;
    At fifty chides his infamous delay,
    Pushes his prudent purpose to resolve;
    In all the magnanimity of thought
    Resolves; and re-resolves; then dies the same."
    Mr. CHARLETON: I beg to second the Amendment. On every Budget day,

    1561
    I find as did Sisyphus, that the stone has rolled back to the bottom of the bill, and one wonders how long it will be before the other side assists us to bring back the stone to the top of the hill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is fond of using military metaphors. He talks about mass formations, flank movements, and that sort of thing, and the right hon. Gentleman always reminds me of the historians whose books I was forced to read as a child which spoke about mass movements of troops and Kings and Queens, but took no notice of the toiling millions upon whom the armies and all the panoply of war rests. It seems to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer forgets all about them; he seldom speaks about them and never does anything for them. Tea is a stimulant, a comfort and a cooling beverage to many. It cheers the lonely, the sick and the aged and it stimulates the tired. It is practically the only stimulant which the poor are able to reach. The hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) chuckles, but I am sure he will be greatly pleased if he could have mild ale brought down to pre-War price.
    Mr. J. JONES: I am prepared to support any reduction in taxes on the workers, but. I object to a matter of this kind being turned into a temperance oration.
    Mr. CHARLETON: I really had no intention of doing anything of the kind, but I thought the hon. Member for Silver-town expressed disagreement with something that I had said.
    Mr. JONES: On the contrary, I agreed with every word of it, and I swallow the tea and the beer as well.
    Mr. CHARLETON: It seems to me that in this Budget the manufacturers and the agriculturists are getting something, and the poor are getting nothing at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in unfolding some of his proposals dealing with grants to the railway companies, spoke of the cumulative effect that the remission in rates would have upon some of our heavy industries, and he showed how in the carriage of materials in the iron and steel industry the effect would be cumulative. Previous Budgets introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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    have had a cumulative effect upon tea, and yet he does not propose to reduce that duty.
    The right hon. Gentleman proposes to tax kerosene which will make it more costly to boil the water in order to make tea. There are proposals in the Budget to tax petrol, cutlery, matches and mechanical lighters. It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is relieving the burden on sugar but the cumulative effects of the taxes imposed under the present Budget tend to make the cup of tea of the working classes very much dearer than it used to be. We seldom see a member of the Kitchen Committee or the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Tea Room. I suppose they feel that they cannot give us the help we should like and the consequence is that we very seldom see them there. I feel sure if the Chancellor of the Exchequer took the duty off tea he might come in and sample the House of Commons tea. We have an instance of the increase of the burden of taxation on the agricultural labourer by the tax on kerosene. Already the labourer pays a tax of 8s. 10d. on his tobacco and other things and all this has to come out of a wage between 27s. and 32s. a week. It seems to me that these lowly-paid people who support our civilisation get very little consideration.
    Then I would recommend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should give some little thought, even if as a political manœuvre, to the millions who are to be enfranchised presently. Has he thought of the effect of his refusal to reduce the Tea Duty on the votes of the women who are to be enfranchised? They will all support a revision of the Tea Duty; I feel sure of that. If the Chancellor gave them some relief, he would be able to speculate more accurately on the result of their votes than he can on the proposal of rate relief which is to be given next year or at some time in the distant future. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, moreover, professes that he wishes to assist trade. We have evidence, so far as previous revision of taxation is concerned, that this is one way of assisting trade. Too much weight is put on the provision of new capital and not enough weight attached to the finding of customers for purchasing material. I have a quotation from the Colwyn Report on this question of tea. The Co-operative

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    Wholesale Society gave evidence before the Committee, and this is what the Committee say on page 373 of their Report:
    "The reduction in taxation on tea and sugar under the Budget of 1924 was immediately passed on to consumers, and that trade immediately expanded. While 'the expansion was not uniform throughout the country,. … an increase of 10 per cent. in the sales of tea and of 5 per cent, to 10 per cent, in the sales of sugar may be taken as typical.' During the 14 weeks immediately following these Budget reductions, the English and Scottish Wholesale Societies' sales of tea ncreased by 16.3 per cent., as compared with the corresponding period of 1923, and by 23.8 per cent., as compared with the immediately preceding 14 weeks; while their sales of sugar increased by 24 per cent., as compared with the corresponding period of 1923, and by 26.5 per cent., as compared with the immediately preceding 14 weeks."
    That shows quite clearly, I think, that immediately the Duty was reduced, the people who were unable to fulfil their desire for tea were able more adequately to meet that desire. On page 218 of the Report we find that the amount consumed per head increased after the Budget of 1924; where it had been 8.5 pounds per individual before, it went to 9 pounds. This is a question which does very directly affect the very poor. The figures show that there are poor families which consume more tea if given the opportunity by reduced taxation. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer likes to do something to assist the poor and trade he can not do better than give a remission of the duty on tea.
    Mr. PILCHER: There is an aspect of this subject of cheap tea to which I would like to direct the attention of the tea trade and the representative of the Exchequer. As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary well knows, tea is considerably dearer to-day than it was before the War. There are various reasons for that fact. One of them is, of course, that the workers in the tea gardens in India are treated very much better than they were before the War. Labour is very much dearer. Another reason is that during the great slump in tea consumption and in tea prices in 1920, the tea-producing industry of the British Empire learned the art of keeping prices up to a level which the industry itself regards as economic. Just to show the state of the industry during 1920, it may be mentioned that some of the finest
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    gardens were actually being grubbed up because tea planting was not an economic proposition. But this is my point: the effect that this limitation of the supplies of Indian tea seems to be producing on the demand here for non-Indian teas, and particularly for Java teas.
    It seems to me that in the matter of our tea resources and tea supplies, there is growing up a position a little analogous at least to the position which grew up in regard to the rubber industry under the influence of the Stevenson restriction scheme. I have here the figures showing the growth in our importation of Java teas during the last few years, and I would like to draw the attention of the Government to them. In 1919, the consumption of Java teas here, in lbs., was 18,800,000; in. 1924 it was 45,000,000 lbs.; in 1926 52,000,0000 lbs.; and in 1927, 61,000,000 lbs. Those figures are very striking. Meantime, what was the consumption of Indian tea in the United Kingdom? In 1919, it was 258,000,000 lbs.; in 1924 it was 235,000,000 lbs.; and it has stood steadily at about that figure. In 1927 it was 233,000,000 lbs. The total consumption of tea in these islands since 1919 was 388,000,000 lbs., and in 1927 it had gone up to 916,000,000 lbs.—a growth of only 28,00,000 lbs., or less than the increase in the consumption of Java tea for the whole period.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Did the 1919 figure include Ireland?
    Mr. PILCHER: I am afraid that I cannot answer that question. There is, however, no need to go back as far as 1919. If one goes back to 1922 or 1923, it is clear that the Irish figures are not included, and the result is equally remarkabe. There is a very striking growth in the consumption of Java tea in these islands and this is the reason. Java tea is cheaper to produce. I do not know what, if any, arrangement the Java trade have for keeping up prices, but it seems to me that our own tea industry may be giving a very big incentive to the production of tea in Java on cheaper lines than the Indian tea industry is allowing Indian tea to be sold at in this country. [Interruption.] Java tea is generally regarded as an inferior quality tea. Of course Indian teas are graded in six or more different grades. Java tea is a tea which gives a stronger flavour in blending. It would be difficult to go into a

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    shop in this country and get a packet of Java tea, for Java tea is used for blending.
    A point on which I would ask for information is as to the extent to which Java tea is blended with Empire teas which are subsequently sold to the public as Empire tea—not intentionally perhaps, though the public supposes that it is buying an Empire blend while it is really buying a blend which has in it an increasing proportion of Java tea as the years go by. I tried to get some figures dealing with this matter, by means of questions a few days ago, but I was not satisfied. It appears to be impossible to ascertain how much Java tea there is in bond in this country at any moment. Possibly the figures that I have now produced will have the effect that I desire, namely, to direct the attention of the consuming public and the tea trade itself, as well as of the Ministers concerned, to the fact that there is a very striking growth, in spite of the preference that we give to Empire tea, in the consumption of this foreign produced tea. In view of all that has happened in regard to rubber, it is a question to which attention should be directed.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): Before I turn to the very attractive and temperate speech of the Mover of the Amendment, it would be as well if I dealt with the speech of the last speaker and the point that he made about Empire tea and Java tea. I happen to have had drawn out this morning some figures which I think may be of use to my hon. Friend. The clearance of tea in this country last year was 402,000,000 lbs., of which 330,000,000 lbs. were Empire tea, as compared with an average of only 261,000,000 lbs. of Empire tea before the War and 349,000,000 lbs. in 1926–27. The figures of the 18 per cent. of tea that was not Empire grown is split up in this way: 15 per cent. was Java and Sumatra tea, and only about 3 per cent. was China tea. Although I shall take note of the point and consider what can be done about it, I think I can allay my hon. Friend's fears in some degree by drawing his attention to one fact. Before the War we consumed 261,000,000 lbs. of Empire tea. Last year we consumed 330,000,000 lbs. of Empire tea. Therefore my hon. Friend need not
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    be apprehensive that any grave attack is being made on Empire produced tea.
    Mr. PILCHER: It may be an insidious attack.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I will look into the facts when the Budget discussions are over. Let me now deal with the very attractive speech of the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr). Let me deal with it by means of figures. If his Amendment were carried it would reduce the duty on non-Empire tea from 4d. to 1d. Consequently, Empire grown tea would be subject to a reduction from 3⅓d. to ⅓d. per lb. As almost nine out of every 10 spoonfuls of tea consumed in these islands are Empire grown, the Amendment means that practically the whole of the duty on tea would be wiped out. Between 80 and 90 per cent. of the tea is Empire produced tea, and under the Amendment it would pay a duty of only ⅓d. If the Amendment were carried a further step would have to be taken. Cocoa, coffee and chicory are all linked with tea. Much as we would like to reduce the duty on them, it would cost too much. If cocoa, coffee, chicory and tea were affected by the reduction proposed in the Amendment, in a full year £6,000,000 of revenue would be lost. I would remind hon. Members that it is not what we would like to do, but what we can afford to do. We cannot afford, in a difficult year like the present, to lose £4,300,000.
    5.0 p.m.
    I have taken particular care to dissect the figures contained in the Report of the Colwyn Committee, quoted by the hon. Member for Motherwell and, I think, by the hon. Member for South Leeds (Mr. Charleton). I think it was the hon. Member for Motherwell who reminded the Committee that the Colwyn Committee calculation of the consumption cost of tea per head per annum on the average for every inhabitant of these islands was 2s. 7d. Our object, of course, is to let the poor bear as little as possible by way of taxation. But, after all, 2s. 7d. a year per head of tax, although it is, of course, a burden, cannot, I think, by any stretch of imagination be described as an onerous burden. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last year, and I believe on another occasion during his tenure of office as Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would like to see the taxes on the break-

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    fast table reduced to nothing, although it was not possible at present to carry that into effect. Although he made no pledge, he said that he would like to see a reduction of taxation on Empire produced goods which form part of the poor people's food. But he went on to say, and I agree with him, and I am strengthened in that, I think, by what has been said about the Colwyn Committee, that if he were looking round—I am paraphrasing his words—and had the money to give relief, much as he would like to relieve the poor man of the 2s. 7d. per head per annum on tea, he felt that there were other taxes which would have an earlier claim for consideration. The hon. Member for South Leeds quoted the very heavy duty on tobacco, which, I think, must be admitted is no longer a luxury but is a necessity—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and the duty upon sugar. Hon. Gentlemen opposite appear to think that one cannot compare tobacco with tea. That, of course, is true theoretically, but tobacco has now become the innocent and necessary comfort of a large section of the population. It carries a very much larger burden of taxation than does tea, and the duty on tobacco forms a much larger draft upon the pockets of the working man than does tea. There is certainly also another commodity which is equally or even more necessary than is tea, and that is sugar. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he says that if he had the money available to relieve taxation he would rather turn to other things which were burdensome on the poor than to tea.
    There is another argument which the hon. Member for Motherwell touched upon. It is that the flat rate of 4d. a lb. on tea falls more heavily on the tea of the poor than on the tea of the well-to-do, because, he says, the poor are inclined to buy the cheaper types of tea. Therefore as the cheaper tea bears the burden of fourpence, and the tea used by the better-to-do people bears no more than the burden of 4d., the hon. Member claims that the duty on tea is weighted against the poor. But that is not so. I remember the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer speaking from this Box and saying that that argument was not worth very much. It was said that the flat
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    rate bore more heavily upon the poorer people, but the right hon. Gentleman said that was not so. He said that the working people had long discovered that the most economical form of buying tea was to buy the better tea, and in consequence the flat rate did not bear more heavily upon the poorer people. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may laugh and deny it, but I have the quotation here. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it!"] It is from the OFFICIAL REPORT, and the speech Was made when the right hon. Gentleman was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman said:
    "It is a mistake to suppose that the working people of this country consume wholly cheap tea. As a matter of fact, the working people of this country have discovered that cheap tea is not economical."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th June, 1924; col. 962, Vol. 175]
    The corollary to that is—[Interruption.]
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us which of the classes does buy this cheaper tea?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Probably the new poor; the people with fixed incomes, who have suffered worst of all by taxation. Then the hon. Member for Motherwell went on to deal with the question of direct and indirect taxation. Every year since I have been in this House we have considered the relative merits of direct and indirect taxation. I have come to the conclusion that when we talk about so much of direct and so much of indirect taxation, the factors which we consider are not applicable to present conditions, and I will give my reason for that. In the first place, people forget that, roughly speaking, out of a total population in this country of, say, 40,000,000, not more than 3,000,000 people pay direct taxation, but all the people who pay direct taxation pay indirect taxation as well. The Income Tax payer and Super tax payer drink tea and consume sugar, tobacco and alcohol. They pay largely in direct taxation by way of Income Tax and Super-tax, and they pay indirect taxation as consumers of those taxable articles. [An HON. MEMBER: "They get relief!"] That may be, but when you put roughly 62 per cent. on one side and 38 per cent. on the other, your argument is vitiated by the fact that the direct taxpayers also pay indirect taxation. The figures are loaded. The

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    figures for direct taxation are now 62.5 per cent. as against 37.5 per cent. for indirect taxation, but the figures are loaded in this way. The Silk Duties, the foreign Motor Car Duties, and the duties on pianos, are duties on articles which are quite as appropriate to the poor man's house as to the rich man's house, but they are not necessaries. A man is not compelled to buy those articles as he is compelled to buy the necessaries of life. But the Silk Duties and the duties on foreign motor cars and pianos are included in the calculation of indirect taxation which brings up the figure to 37.5 per cent. But they are not necessaries, like tea and sugar. When you concentrate on the relative proportion of direct and indirect taxation and endeavour to get a mathematical calculation in order to arrive at the absolute truth, I think those figures are entirely vitiated by reason of the inclusion of these new luxury duties in the calculation.
    Mr. WALTER BAKER: What about the man with £400 a year and three children?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to get on with my main argument. The basic comforts and the necessaries of life included in the indirect taxation of the country are as they have always been of late years, they have been very much the same since 1924 until now. The figure in 1924 was 4.05 per cent.; it is now 4.75 per cent. It cannot, therefore, be said, as the hon. Member for Motherwell urged, that there is anything in the argument that the burden of indirect taxation on the poor in relation to the necessaries of life is very onerous. I cannot see how the hon. Gentleman can justify such an argument when the figure remains at about 5 per cent. I have dissected further figures between the year 1924 and the year 1928. I find that notwithstanding the imposition of taxes on luxuries—silk, the McKenna Duties, tobacco, entertainments, alcohol and betting—the increase amounted to 4.7 per cent. on indirect taxation, and the taxes in connection with sugar, tea, cocoa, coffee and matches have, in the aggregate, come down a slight amount—they have come down by .20 per cent. Consequently, I do not think that very much weight can be put upon the arguments put forward
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    by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Motherwell. In view of the explanation I have given as to the effect of a reduction of the Tea Duty, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: The hon. Gentleman has spoken about the connection between direct and indirect taxation, and he says that he thinks these discussions are losing their particular application owing to the changes in the nature of taxation.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I did not put it in* that way. What I said was that the figures were losing their usefulness, but, of course, the discussions are still useful.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: I accept the hon. Member's rendering, but the particular point to which we want to call attention is that although these figures may be now getting difficult to analyse there has been behind all these discussions always a most important issue. That was the issue of whether, taking our tax burden, as a whole, it was being reasonably adjusted between the rich and the poor. That was the real question which was always in our minds when we were discussing the burdens of indirect taxation. I notice that the hon. Gentleman in dealing with that laid down a certain principle which he said his Government wished to follow, and the principle was that they wished to reduce the taxation placed upon the poor to the smallest extent possible. I would like to examine what steps they have taken to do that. I would like to take the Colwyn Committee and to quote the table which the Committee drew up to illustrate this point. That gives results of a most striking character. The Committee took the year 1925, and they took a man and his wife and three children and they worked out the taxation paid by a family of that kind, on incomes of different rates. They found that a man who was earning £1,000 a year paid 11 per cent. of his income in taxation. They found that a man who was earning £500 a year paid in 1925 6.2 per cent, of his income in taxation. A man who is earning 28 a week pays 11½ per cent. of his income in taxation, or a higher proportion than in either of the two previous cases; and a man who is earning £2 a week pays nearly 12 per cent, of his income in taxation.

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    That means that a man who is earning £2 a week pays about 4s. a week in taxation, or a larger proportion of his income than the man who is earning £20 a week, or £1,000 a year, and he pays in taxation twice the proportion of his income that a man earning £10 a week, or £500 a year, pays. That is the fact which lies behind these discussions on direct and indirect taxation. These figures show that the man with between £2 and £3 a week, taking the whole range of incomes below £1,000 a year, is the most highly taxed man in this country. He pays the largest proportion of his income to the State, and he does so with less grumbling and less complaint than those who earn £10 and £20 a week. Nevertheless, there is being perpetrated upon him a most palpable and undeniable injustice, which these figures have now made clear.
    The Financial Secretary said that it was the object of the Government that the families in this section should bear the lowest possible proportion of taxation. He has been dissecting certain Budgets, and for the last day or two I also have seen dissecting some Budgets introduced by purely Conservative Governments, that is to say, the three Budgets introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Budget introduced by his Conservative predecessor, the Prime Minister. I have been working out figures to see how far they have attempted to alleviate the burdens of taxation as between rich and poor, and these are the results, which I do not think the hon. Gentleman w ill question. Their alleviation of the burdens of taxation upon the poorer section of the community has been almost entirely through the reduction of the Beer Duty three years ago, and the reduction of the Sugar Duty—I am not arguing about what it really means—in this Budget. Those two reductions were estimated, when the respective Budgets were introduced, to give an alleviation, all told, of £18,000,000 a year. Then, when we come to their alleviations of the burdens of the Income Tax and Super-tax paying sections of the community, the figures are these: The Income Tax has been reduced twice; the Corporation Profits Tax has been reduced—I am talking of Conservative Budgets; the Super-tax has been reduced, and the Death
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    Duties have been raised. The net result has been that, taking all these taxes together, the alleviation of the burdens of the more comfortable section of the community amounts to, roughly, £100,000,000 a year, or five times as much as in the case of the other section of the community, who have been revealed by the Colwyn Committee to be the most highly taxed class in the country.
    Those are the facts that we should have liked the Financial Secretary to face. He says it is the object of his Government that this class should be as lightly taxed as possible, but the effect of the four Budgets that have been introduced by Conservative Governments has been to intensify and perpetuate that essential inequity which the Colwyn Committee revealed and upon which they commented. Every Budget introduced in those four years under purely Conservative Governments has diminished the total proportion of taxation laid upon the wealthy, and has increased to a corresponding degree the total proportion borne by the poorer sections of the State. That is why these discussions on the Tea Duty are far more important than questions concerning the Tea Duty itself. They are a test of the direction in which a Government is facing, and whom they are trying to assist; and, putting this Conservative Government to that test, this discussion is not a revelation so much of the Tea Duty, but is an exposure of the whole trend and tendency of Conservative finance and of the reactionary bias and inequity upon which it is based.
    Mr. J. JONES: In order to disabuse the minds of some of my friends on these benches, I want to say that I am heartily in support of this Amendment, not because I am particularly fond of tea, but I have had experience of being compelled to buy the poorest qualities of tea in circumstances of a different kind from those in which I now am. Blessed are they who expect little, for they shall not be disappointed. This Amendment has not been moved in the hope or belief that the hon. Gentleman will agree with us. If he did that, it would be admitting that the Government are wrong, and that is the last thing that you would expect a Tory Financial Secretary to do. They have to be here to look after the interests of their friends. Their motto in politics has always been. "You scratch my back and I will scratch your's." Consequently,

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    when they make up their Budgets, they are always looking where their friends are. They find them, and they always follow the motto, "Unto him that hath shall be given, and from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."
    It is not merely a matter of the fairly comfortable working man who can afford to pay 2s. a pound for tea, but anyone who will come down into the East End of London and look outside the shops on a Saturday night will see the dust that is sold for tea at from 1s. 2d. to 1s. 6d. a pound. And the people who buy that cannot afford to buy pounds of tea; they buy 2d., 3d. and 4d. worth of tea on a. Saturday night, and try to make it last for the longest possible time. They pay 4d. a pound on that stuff. If it were possible to feed dogs on it, dogs would turn their noses up at it, and yet these people have to pay on that the same tax as the man who can afford to buy the highest priced tea. Then indirect taxation is spoken of, but I call it the most direct form of robbery that was ever invented. The people who first brought it into existence were really bigger brigands than the men who are now under sentence of death. Tom King and Dick Turpin were gentlemen compared with our modern Chancellors of the Exchequer in this connection, because they used to rob the rich and give some of the proceeds back to the poor, whereas these modern highwaymen rob the poor and hand the proceeds over to the rich. Either it is the Road Fund or the tax on paraffin, or on tea or any other commodity. It is always to the people who have that consideration is given, and, to the people who have not, no consideration whatever is vouchsafed.
    My hon. Friend who opened this discussion gave a sort of temperance lecture. I have drunk beer ever since I was 16 years of age, and I am none the worse for it, as I understand it. I am quite prepared to measure my mental or physical capacity against any of those on the other side who do not agree with me. I do not believe that the world will ever be saved by cold water, but everyone can please themselves—they can go and drown themselves in it if they like, but I will not allow them to stop me from having my glass of beer. If I have to choose between beer and water, however,
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    if I have to choose between taxation on one of these commodities which go right down into the lives of the poorest of the poor, if I have to give a vote in favour of taxation being levied according to ability to pay, and if I were asked if I would be prepared to agree to a continuation of the heavy taxes on beer and tobacco, while reducing the taxation on tea, both my hands would go up every time for a reduction of the tax on tea.
    We can discuss beer at the proper time, but I object to bringing it in like King Charles's head on every possible occasion. I will go and have some later, and I shall not interfere with anyone else going and drowning themselves in tea in the Tea. Room, but I want the Committee to realise that, apart from any question of whether we like this or the other beverage, this is an economic question affecting the mass of the common people of this country, and it is an unfair system of taxation to charge the same tax upon the man with the lowest income as upon the man with a higher income in respect of the same commodity. I am one of those who believe in the abolition of indirect taxation altogether. I think that there should be only one tax, and that a tax in proportion to means. If any allowance is made, it ought to be to the man with a large family as against the man with a small family. There is a kind of glimmering of this kind of policy in the present Budget. It has taken a lot of pressure to bring that idea into the minds of some of our modern financiers—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): The hon. Member is now going rather too wide. To discuss the question of direct and indirect taxation is in order, but the question of special reliefs from direct taxation is really beyond the scope of this Debate.
    Mr. JONES: Seeing that some of our friends have introduced the question of beer, I thought that I might introduce the question of babies. I support this Amendment proposing a reduction of the Tea Duty, because of the unfairness of the incidence of the duty, and the difference which it makes to large sections of the community, particularly the poor. Therefore, I want to assure my friends here that, while they may differ from me on the matter of beer, I am absolutely united with them on the question of tea.
    Mr. BARNES: One of the arguments advanced by the Financial Secretary against this reduction was that reductions on the allied commodities, cocoa, coffee, and so on, would have to follow. We do not shirk that issue, and, indeed, we should be quite prepared to face the consequential Amendments that might be necessary if this duty were abolished. As has been previously said, we advance our case for two main reasons. In the first place, we are against any form of taxation on our primary foodstuffs, and, therefore, I would ask the Financial Secretary to consider this Amendment, not primarily in relation to articles like tobacco or similar commodities, but to keep in view our wish to adopt the principle of abolishing all indirect taxation, and, indeed, taxation of any kind, on the primary foodstuffs of the people. We also consider that we have a special claim to consideration in the case of tea, because the incidence of the Tea Duty is most inequitable. In fact, it would be difficult to select any other item of taxation in the Budget that falls with so much inequity as does the Tea Duty, and I hope later on to try to prove that to the Financial Secretary.
    Another point that I would like to advance for the hon. Gentleman's consideration is that we do not want an imposition of this sort to be of a static character. We rather look upon the weapon of taxation as something that should be mobile, and should help to redress some of the economic inequalities which occur from time to time; and, while we do not believe that the abolition of the Tea Duty would entirely redress those inequalities, it would at least be some compensation for other forms of taxation that are being imposed. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) analysed the financial policy of the Government, and pointed out that something like £100,000,000 of relief from direct taxation had been granted. I should like to add to that point by stating also that in that period this Government has imposed actual additional indirect taxation to the extent of, roughly, £30,000,000. When that is added to their financial policy the situation becomes much more serious.
    I should like to pass to the incidence of this tax. I want to quote three main lines of tea, what one might describe as low, medium and high grade, for the pur-
    1576
    pose of trying to prove that the Financial secretary's point, when he was quoting a comment of my right hon. Friend's in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), is entirely incorrect. At the same time I do not disagree with what the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said, because I think these figures bear out the comment and at the same time dispute the Financial Secretary's argument. If we take a low grade tea the selling price of which is 1s. 6d. and remove the duty of 4d., making the actual net selling cost 1s. 2d., the proportion of tax paid on the net price is 28¼ per cent. If we take the medium grade tea and remove the tax, the proportion of tax is 15 per cent. The net cost of high grade tea, which sells at 3s. 8d., is 3s. 4d. and the duty is only 10 per cent. These figures prove conclusively that the flat rate duty on tea imposes an undue hardship on the poorer person who purchases low grade tea.
    I should like to refer to the general attitude of the working class consumer towards tea. It is correct that the average working class family has learnt that the medium and better grade tea is the most economic in the long run, but it is not always the knowledge of working men and women that determines what they pay. It is their pockets. I should like the hon. Gentleman to consider these figures. Taking the tea sales of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which is one of the largest dealers in the country, and of course has special knowledge of working class consumption, in 1926 the average selling price of our main line of tea in the North of England was 3s. 4d. a lb. That bears out what the late Chancellor said. But in 1927 the main line of tea dropped from 3s. 4d. to 2s. 8d. a lb. That proves conclusively that it was not because they do not prefer the higher grade tea but their circumstances have compelled them to purchase a lower grade tea. The argument that the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Filcher) introduced of the increase in Java tea in the last two or three years is another case of what I am trying to prove. Java tea is a coarser and cheaper kind and is used for bringing down the grade of tea, but because of the general circumstances that prevailed in working class homes in our large industrial centres because of the

    1577
    retention of this tax when the general movement of prices was upward, the working class public have been forced to a lower grade type of tea. That is what has happened in the last two or three years, and as the Indian market, owing to Preference and the general policy of the Government, have gone for the higher grade tea and has not expanded to the same extent as the expanding market, the trade has been more or less forced on to these lower grade Java teas. If the Government are really interested in advancing Imperial trade here is an excellent opportunity for diem. The Minister himself pointed out that £330,000,000 of the present trade, out of £416,000,000—
    Mr. SAMUEL: I said 330,000,000 lbs. and 402,000,000 lbs.
    Mr. BARNES: I was quoting for 1927. At any rate the figures prove that the bulk of our tea trade is in Indian and Ceylon tea. If the increase in the Java trade is going on for the reasons I have mentioned the Government have an excellent opportunity to redress that. If the Government entirely abolished the Tea Duty that would be immediately reflected in price. As far as I can ascertain, whilst the general conditions of the trade have been inimical to a reduction of price in the last two or three years, because of the enormous expansion following previous reductions in the Tea Duty, I understand that in the near future that process may be reversed and there is a reasonable opportunity for prices to begin to fall. If the Government will accept our Amendment and abolish the Tea Duty, not only will the consumer get practically the whole of the advantage but the effect will be to encourage Indian trade, because with the reduction of price people will be able to go to higher grade teas, which are primarily Indian and Ceylon. Our case is a very strong one indeed and I hope the Government will give it due consideration.
    With regard to direct and indirect taxation generally, I find that if we include the present Budget and anticipate the policy of the Government being carried out in full with regard to rating relief, since we have had remissions of taxation, mainly under Conservative Chancellors, the total reduction in direct taxation has amounted to £187,500,000. The total reduction in indirect taxation
    1578
    for the same period has amounted to £56,000,000, over £30,000,000 of which was reduced by my right hon. Friend when Chancellor of the Exchequer, leaving to the Conservatives in the main a reduction of £26,000,000. As against that must be put the fact that this Government has increased indirect taxation to the tune of £30,000,000, a balance against indirect taxation of over £4,000,000. These figures may be opposed in detail, but in the main they can be substantiated, and I consider we have an overwhelming case for a reduction of the Tea Duty.
    Mr. RADFORD: I have listened to the speeches of several hon. Members opposite. I really think if any person who had not been in this country in recent years had heard them he would have got a totally erroneous impression. He would have gathered that the Conservative Government had been the one to levy this duty on tea for the first time. Hon. Members have moved to reduce it, but the present flat rate of 4d. was levied by the Socialist Government. [Interruption.] I am not talking of what it was in a previous year. If hon. Members pursue that line of argument, the Income Tax was 6s. at one time and then 5s., and the right hon. Gentleman reduced it from 5s. to 4s. 6d. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I may have been giving the right hon. Gentleman the credit wrongly for having reduced Income Tax. I thought he managed to effect a small reduction. At any rate, the point I have raised is not whether the Tea Duty was higher at some earlier date but that the amount the right hon. Gentleman levied was a flat rate of 4d. per lb. I was interested in the figures the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) gave. Possibly owing to negligence or to insufficient time I have never read the whole of the Colwyn Committee's Report with sufficient care, but I agree that if, as the Colwyn Committee found in 1925, the percentage of tax paid by a man with an income of £2 a week is greater than that of considerably higher incomes, that is wrong, and I would willingly pay at the rate of a few more coppers Income tax in order that the injustice might be remedied. But I take it the Colwyn Committee's figures were based on the position that existed in 1924, and therefore surely those facts must also have been present to the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Member

    1579
    for Colne Valley. Is it fair, is it honest, for hon. Members opposite now to propose a reduction of the Tea Duty which, however desirable it may be, they would not carry into effect were they themselves in power?
    Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: The special point I feel about this proposal is the strong objection to indirect taxation upon what is really a food. That difficulty stands prominently in the way of those who are anxious to secure an all-round Protectionist policy. The Prime Minister was held back in his Protectionist policy very largely on that ground. Here we have what after all is for the general body of workaday people, a food. Unfortunately, by their circumstances they are obliged to confine themselves largely to this particular product. It would be very much better for them if they had something more substantial in the way of food. The hon. Gentleman was endeavouring to argue that tobacco was a necessity. That is absurd. It is anything but a necessity. The only justification for such an argument is in regard to some of the men who are unemployed and who have been long under the great disadvantage of not being able to obtain food. They have been brought down almost to a condition of starvation, and they have said that it was absolutely necessary for them to have their tobacco in order to stifle the strong desire for legitimate food. That is the only instance where tobacco can be shown to be a necessity.
    The real truth is revealed by such figures as have been presented from this side of the House, especially by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), with regard to the marked disparity between the burden laid upon those who are so well able to meet even the heaviest burdens imposed in the form of taxation and those who have such a terrible struggle for mere existence. It. is regrettable that a duty of this kind should be exacted in regard to a commodity which is so essential to the workers. Often the working man has to drink tea at breakfast time, at dinner time, and at supper time. It is scandalous that any Government should impose taxation on a basis of this kind. It is iniquitous that such a proposition should be made in face of the great relief that Tory Governments have from time to time given to the wealthier classes. We know that the old
    1580
    time basis of taxation was termed the basis of "means and substance," and that is really the basis upon which we ought to act in all our interests and in the conduct of our national and local government. In every election in which I have taken part that is the principle for which I have stood concerning all taxation. I am thoroughly with the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) in his argument, that the best line to pursue is to attack the whole system of indirect taxation. I know that there are special difficulties in the way.
    There is one particular direction to which reference has already been made by the hon. Member for Silvertown—there is always the silver lining to every cloud—and that is the difficulty in facing the complete relief of indirect taxation. I submit that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were really sincere about this—I know his difficulty is the application of his sincerity; the more one becomes attached to a Government position, I admit that it is extremely difficult for one to fulfil one's sincerity—if he really meant business, and took into serious consideration the interests of the mass of toilers to whom he used to address himself, he would very largely concentrate upon this question of indirect taxation instead of being drawn off by the Super-tax payers. Imagine a man talking about his sincerity and desire to help working men and women in regard to tea turning round and saying: "The most unfortunate man troubling my conscience is the man who is a Super-tax payer. I have to relieve him and leave out of consideration the poor fellow who has to pay 4d. on tea."
    The situation is so appalling that I wonder when the day is coming when there will be a thorough grappling with such issues. The working people have many times been led to believe that such things will be tackled. It is fair to say to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that, at any rate, he did give us a substantial proof of his sincerity. I should like to see the Chancellor cut out this particular tax on tea. It is not simply a question of relieving the taxation on tea; it should be a definite signal to the workers of a direct line of advance against the whole system of indirect taxation. The whole burden of our taxation, from whatever it may arise, ought

    1581
    to be based on what is the income of any given man or woman or any family circle. On that basis there would be no just reason for complaint as far as the incidence of taxation is concerned. An hon. Member who has recently spoken referred to the introduction of a relief of taxation on plant and machinery and so on and the necessity for rearranging the incidence of taxation. There are difficulties in the way, and we cannot discuss those to-day. If it be the endeavour of the Government to meet the case of corporations and business concerns out for profit-snaking and concerns making a substantial profit in normal times, if it be necessary for the Government to face that, why should they have this difficulty in meeting the simple question of the relief of taxation on tea? A Government that cannot face a simple point of that kind ought to stop any Minister from talking about his or the Government's anxiety to relieve the burdens of the struggling mass of the people.
    Dr. VERNON DAVIES: I should like to intervene for a moment, because I think it is perhaps as well that the House and the country should definitely understand that tea is not a food. For people to come here and talk about taxing the food of the people and giving these harrowing tales, is neither fair nor desirable. Tea is a stimulant. There is not a particle of food value in it. If you took tea alone you would die from starvation. It was originally a luxury. It may now have become a necessity, but, in the way it is generally taken by the bulk of the working people, it is undoubtedly a poison.
    Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: It is not a poison like the other thing.
    Dr. DAVIES: There is very much to be said for the argument of the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) because when he advocates the advantages of glorious beer he is advocating the advantages of something which has a definite food value. But I really must protest against using this House as a place to deceive the public by statements about taxing the food of the people, and calling tea a food.
    Mr. GILLETT: I am not qualified to g,) into the question which has just been dealt with by the hon. Member for Roy-
    1582
    ton (Dr. Davies), but I have always been given to understand that there are very great mysteries in the ingredients that go to make beer. I should say that the hon. Member was speaking of beer theoretically. There is one point to which I want to call the attention of the Financial Secretary in connection with the interesting statement made by the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Filcher). It is with regard to the figures he gave concerning the increase of Java tea. I think that in regard to that matter every Member ought to consider and bear in mind another important point to which the hon. Member did not refer. While the supply of Indian tea is to a large extent, I understand, being held stationary, the House wants to remember that this is being deliberately done by the tea merchants in order to raise the price of tea. Anyone who was watching the share market in tea about a year or two years ago will remember the extraordinary rise that took place in tea shares when those in the know knew there was to be a determined policy carried out to restrict the use of tea that was introduced from those countries. The point that I want to make, and which I hope the hon. Member will kindly pass on to the Financial Secretary, is that the Government, when they are considering the figures produced to the House by the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth, will consider also the question of trades deliberately restricting their output. At any rate, there is this to be said for the rubber trade, that the Stevenson scheme was only put into force when the trade had come to the conclusion that the circumstances were so serious that nothing else could be done. But I do not know that this was the case in connection with tea.
    Mr. RILEY: On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is not customary for the Financial Secretary or a representative of the Treasury to be present during this discussion?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Major Elliot): An arrangement has been come to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the heavy strain of these Debates, to make it possible for other Members of the Government to be present, and, at times, to deal with questions which arise.

    1583
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has only left the Chamber for a couple of minutes. He asked me to watch the proceedings on his behalf and make any apologies which were necessary.
    Mr. GILLETT: I am sure I am quite willing for the Financial Secretary to have his cup of tea, and while I agree with what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says, the point I really want to address to the House will be rather more appropriately addressed to the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. Radford). The hon. Member forgot one fact when he referred to the Colwyn Report and asked why my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) had not taken note of the figures in it.
    Mr. RADFORD: What I said was this: The Colwyn Committee reported in 1925; therefore, I presume their Report was based on figures which would be known to the right hon. Gentleman in 1924.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. GILLETT: I did not know that the facts were usually given to the Government before a report was issued. The hon. Member has received the figures evidently with sympathy. Some of the figures in the Report of the Committee were given on the authority of Sir Herbert Samuel and the Committee acknowledged that they were given on the authority of that distinguished statesman, so that the source from which they received the figures was quite apart from anyone connected with the Government. The hon. Member said that he was interested in hearing the figures which were given by the hon. Member for Keighlcy (Mr. Lees-Smith) pointing out how heavily taxation weighed upon the very poorest section of the people, and how the percentage which they had to hear was so much heavier than the percentage of taxation weighing upon other sections of the population. I hope the hon. Member will continue to investigate this matter and will try to become acquainted with some of these figures, because that is the case we are attempting to make in regard to the whole question of the removal of a large part of the duty upon tea. The hon. Member will find that the figures quoted by the hon. Member who
    1584
    moved the Motion show that while a family with an income of £100 a year were paying duty of 11s. per head, when you came to a family with £500 a year the estimated taxation which they were paying was only one shilling or two shillings higher.
    Mr. RADFORD: Is it not percentage?
    Mr. GILLETT: It is not percentage. I am referring to the figures supplied by Sir Herbert Samuel, in which he quoted the actual duty which he estimated a family were paying in shillings and pounds, taking families with incomes of £100, £150 and upwards to £500. I think it was an estimate of the actual duty that would be paid upon the amount of tea consumed by persons in the family, and not a question of percentage. I took particular note of some references made by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in regard to direct and indirect taxation. I do not know whether the figures which he quoted are an estimate of what the position will be provided that the Finance Bill is passed on the lines suggested by the Government, but I notice that the figures given by the "Economist" in regard to direct and indirect taxation are somewhat different from those which the Financial Secretary gave. The "Economist" gives the figure of direct taxation at 59.9 per cent. and for indirect taxation 40.1 per cent. I imagine that under the financial proposals of the Government the figures will he found more unfavourable from the standpoint at which we are looking at the position than they are at the present time. If the figures of the "Economist" are correct, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the percentage of direct taxation has been steadily falling during the last four years. In 1924–25 it was 62.7 per cent., and in subsequent years it has dropped to 61.6 per cent., 60.1 per cent. and 59.9 per cent. I presume that this year the figure will be still lower. Unless the Financial Secretary is prepared to Drove to me that the figures of the "Economist" are unsound, it looks as if the result of the Tory policy has been steadily and systematically to reduce the percentage of direct taxation and, of course, correspondingly to increase the indirect taxation.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Perhaps it would be better if I gave the exact figures,

    1585
    so that no incorrect impression may be drawn. In 1913–14 the direct taxation amounted to 57.5 per cent. and the indirect taxation 42.5 per cent. In 1924, the direct taxation amounted to 66.93 per cent. and the indirect taxation to 33.07 per cent. In 1928–29 the estimate of direct taxation is 62.26, and indirect taxation 37.74 per cent.
    Mr. GILLETT: I suppose that I must leave the "Economist" to settle the matter with the Financial Secretary. I imagine that if we examine the figures of the "Economist" we shall find that they are based upon the question of what is actually direct and indirect taxation. I should like to draw attention to one fact which the "Economist" brings out in referring to these figures. They point out that compared with pre-War, two-fifths of the total expenditure is being raised in connection with War Debt. They say:
    "Against this must be set the fact that interest and sinking fund on the War Debt
    accounts for two-fifths of the total expenditure and is mainly paid to the class upon which direct taxes are levied. These considerations largely justify an increase in the proportion of revenue raised by direct taxation."
    While we are discussing this question, the point brought out by the "Economist" is of interest. It means that money is only being transferred from the pockets of one set of people to the pockets of another set of the same class, in connection with the debt and its interest charges, a position to which we had nothing comparable before the War. As the "Economist" points out, the money which we raise by direct taxation to a large extent goes into the pockets of the same class of people, because they are the people who are the holders of the War Debt.
    Question put, "That the word 'fourpence' stand part of the Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 290; Noes, 144.

    Division No. 94.]

    AYES.

    [6.9 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Ellis, R. G.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Burman, J. B.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Albery, Irving James

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Fade, Sir Bertram G.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Apsley, Lord

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cazalet, Captain victor A.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Astor, Viscountess

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Atkinson, C.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Gates, Percy

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Balniel, Lord

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Christie, J. A.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Goff, Sir Park

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Grace, John

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Bellairs, Commander Canyon

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Bennett, A. J

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Berry, Sir George

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Bethel, A.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Cope, Major William

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Couper, J. B.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Blundell, F. N.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Croft. Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hanbury, C.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Harland, A.

    Briggs, S. Harold

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Drewe, C.

    Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

    Buchan, John

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Meller, R. J.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Hilton, Cecil

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Hohler, sir Gerald Fitzroy

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T C.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Morrison-Bell, sir Arthur Clive

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Templeton, W. P.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Thom, Lt-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Oakley, T.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Tinne, J. A.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Waddington, R.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hell)

    Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Preston, William

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Radford, E. A.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Lamb, J. O.

    Ramsden, E.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Reid, Capt. Cunning ham(Warrington)

    Wells, S. R.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Looker, Herbert William

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Lougher, Lewis

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

    Ropner, Major L.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Lumley, L. R.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    MacAndrew Major Charles Glen

    Rye, F. G.

    Womersley, W. J

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    McLean, Major A.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Macquisten, F A

    Sandon, Lord

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Captain Bowyer and Captain Wallace.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Day, Harry

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Dennison, R

    Hollins, A.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Duckworth, John

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Dunnico, H.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Baker, Walter

    Edge, Sir William

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    England, Colonel A.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Barnes, A.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Barr, J.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Batey, Joseph

    Forrest, W.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Gardner, J. P.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Briant, Frank

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Brood, F. A.

    Gillett, George M.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Bromfield, William

    Gosling, Harry

    Lansbury, George

    Bromley, J.

    Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Greenall, T.

    Lawson, John James

    Buchanan, G.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Cape, Thomas

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Lowth, T.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Groves, T.

    Lunn, William

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Compton, Joseph

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Mackinder, W.

    Connolly, M.

    Hardie, George D.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Cove, W. G.

    Harney, E. A.

    March, S.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Maxton, James

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Mitchell, E. (Paisley)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Montague, Frederick

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Morris, R. H.

    1588

    1589

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Murnin, H.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Shinwell, E.

    Townend, A. E.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Viant, S. P.

    Owen, Major G.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Palin, John Henry

    Slesser, sir Henry H.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Smillie, Robert

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Potts, John S.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Westwood, J.

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Snell, Harry

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Riley, Ben

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Ritson, J.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Stewart, J (St. Rollox)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Strauss, E. A.

    Wilson, H. J. (Jarrow)

    Saklatvala, Shapurj

    Sutton, J. E.

    Windsor, Walter

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Sexton, James

    Thorns, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

    Second Resolution read a Second time.

    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I beg to move, in line 3, to leave out the word "all."
    I do so for the purpose of inserting a consequential Amendment which I shall read to the House a little later in our proceedings. Here let me say that I have only intervened in this Debate before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden—)—
    Mr. SNOWDEN: On a point of Order. Are we not entitled to have the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to move, before he proceeds with his speech?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I understood that the terms of the Amendment were to be given to the House as part of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I only rise before the right hon. Gentleman with a view to saving him the labour and the stress of delivering a speech which no doubt would have been a great effort, but would not be any longer relevant. I think it would be better, as these are very serious matters, that I should at the earliest moment make any statement in the power of the Government which would tend to abridge this discussion and reduce unnecessary oratory. While the policy of the Budget has been, on the whole, acclaimed, criticisms of detail and of method have made themselves manifest.
    1590
    I should like to remind the House that, a week ago to-day, I particularly invited the co-operation of Parliament; and of the country in shaping not merely the details but the general aspect of the policy which we have presented and which we are going to carry through. I have endeavoured to profit to the full by all the criticisms which have reached me from every quarter during the last week, and I can tell the House in a sentence what it all amounts to. It. is to this effect: "The plan is very good, but we should like more of it; we should like it sooner, and we would rather not pay so much for it or pay it quite in the manner which you propose." That, I am sure, is a perfectly fair statement of What, irrespective of party, we have all in our minds at the present time. Of course, that is setting me a rather difficult task, because, after all, in the end everything comes back to pounds, shillings and pence. I must, as I have assured the right hon. Gentleman opposite, consider carefully the fortunes of the Exchequer in future years, including the right hon. Gentleman's fortunes should he be so lucky or unlucky as to occupy my present position at any future time. I do not really think he has much to complain of in the fact that I have intervened before him. As is well known, he is so skilled and practised a debater that he can address himself with the utmost agility to any situation, however new, however unexpected, or however unsought.
    With these preliminary observations on this Oils Duty, I come to the case of kerosene. There are very good reasons for a duty on kerosene. It helps the coal industry. During the repeated coal

    1591
    stoppages which have occurred since the War people have bought stoves and grown accustomed to the use of kerosene, and I am bound to say, on the whole, I think it would be better for all our interests if they adapted themselves to using as much coal as possible. Also this Kerosene Duty played a part in helping the development of our shale industry in which the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell), I have no doubt, has such an intimate and intense concern. In addition, there is a much simpler chemical frontier between heavy petroleum and kerosene—that is between the "whites" and the "blacks," or "heavies" as they are called—than there is between petrol and paraffin, and I thought myself that the duty would be a better duty, a more scientific duty, one more calculated to help along the interests of the country if it were levied on the whole of these light hydrocarbons which are called "whites."
    Therefore, knowing as I did—not finding out at the end of last week as the Labour Party seem to have done that kerosene was much used in the cottages of the rural districts—knowing, as I did, that this was the case, I introduced a measure of compensation which, so far as the Treasury was concerned—[Laughter]—I ask hon. Members not to laugh at sugar; presently we shall reach the Sugar Duty, and we shall be told that it is the commodity of all others which ought to be relieved—I thought that a reduction of more than equal value in sugar might be taken as an offset against the duty on kerosene, and of course, from the Treasury standpoint, from the point of view of the annual Budget, from the point of view of the balance of direct and indirect taxation, from the point of view of the relations of the Exchequer to the wage-earning masses, the answer is complete. The Kerosene Duty would have brought in to the Exchequer £2,900,000 in a full year and the sugar remission gave £2,900,000 in a full year also; so that, as was wittily said by a North-country paper, all you were doing was shifting the burden from the carbohydrates on to the hydrocarbons; and, in addition, the reduction of ¼d. a lb. on sugar was really worth to the consumer a remission of £4,000,000 a year from the Exchequer. It
    1592
    would have cost the Exchequer, in ordinary circumstances, to procure such a rebate £4,000,000, and not £2,900,000, whereas on the other hand, £2,900,000 was the duty on kerosene, by no means all of which fell on the domestic consumer, and still less on the cottage domestic consumer. One-third was consumed industrially, and of the remaining two-thirds only one-half was consumed in the cottage homes.
    The whole matter of the duty on kerosene centralising round the mulcting of the working-class consumers of about £1,000,000 or £1,250,000 per annum, in return for which they get sugar relief, which on the average is much greater—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]. I quite agree that, when you come to individual cases, and not only individual cases, but individual districts and individual classes, and when you come to those districts where electric light and gas are not available, there you find that kerosene bulks with greater consequence than it was before believed would be the case; so that, although from the point of view of the national accounts the balance was held even, when you come to important districts and classes in the country, a case of hardship and of altering the balance of the cottage budget undoubtedly can be made out. Before the Budget, it was not possible to go into these matters in great detail. In the Budget of this year, with a policy of this size, it was necessary to consult a great many people, but we could hardly go through the process of ascertaining the opinion of a duty on kerosene in all the rural districts in the country. The habits of the people have changed very rapidly—
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: When did you find this out? [Interruption.]
    Mr. CHURCHILL: May I say to the hon. Member that at this moment a smile of seraphic joy ought to be spreading over his countenance?
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Why?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Because I am probably going to do, what he would have been urging me in tones of strident indignation to do, and, in consequence of that, he should adjust his mind to receive, not evil things, but benefits. We have undoubtedly undergone a change, and I think that there is no doubt that the

    1593
    great interruptions that we have had in the supply of coal have been one of the causes of that change. I am prepared, and I say it quite frankly, to accept guidance from the House of Commons. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen laugh at that, but in this country we are still governed by Parliament, and I hope that we shall long be governed by Parliament. I have never contemplated attempting to press policies through, apart from the opinion of Members of the House. We are not in Russia; we cannot settle these matters by a ukase.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: This is not the Duma.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Already by Friday of last week, I had had a good many indications of the anxiety with which this duty was regarded. [Laughter.] I am sure that that is a laugh of rejoicing, and not a laugh of mockery. On Friday last, I directed the experts to prepare proposals for meeting what I had ascertained was a very widespread wish in the constituencies upon this subject, and to make preparations for recasting the duty. It is quite impossible to discriminate, as some have suggested, by the use to which kerosene is put, and to say that kerosene used for domestic purposes shall be exempt, but kerosene used for industrial purposes must be taxed. You have to make up your mind definitely whether paraffin is to be taxed or not. The ground had been very carefully surveyed beforehand, because we had considered the possible necessity of drawing the line between petrol and paraffin, so as to make some transference of the burdens of the duty from the Horse-power Duty to the Petrol Duty. Consequently, we had at our disposal the labours of an expert chemical committee which for three years has been sitting on this subject. A new chemical frontier between petrol and paraffin was drawn up some time ago. As I said a week ago in the Budget speech, it was not such a simple frontier, but the Government Chemist, and the high experts who have been associated with him in this matter, inform me that it is not only capable of definition, but capable of effectual defence.
    There is, of course, a danger, if kerosene is exempt from duty while petrol is taxed, that misguided persons will attempt to burn kerosene, or mix-
    1594
    tures containing it, in their motor vehicles, to the detriment of the duty on petrol. However, I am assured that they will not long continue that practice. The best engineering advice that has been sought is to the effect that lamp oil cannot be used in an admixture with petrol for ordinary road propulsion in an internal combustion engine, without introducing grave disadvantages and dangers to the mechanism. These perils are that it condenses in the cylinder, and dilutes the lubricating oil, with fatal results to the bearings. Again, the use of the heavier oil leads to rapid carbonisation in the cylinders, with the attendant disadvantages of frequent dismantling of the engine, and proneness to "knocking." Under these circumstances, although there may be some use of kerosene for the purposes of propulsion, we are quite sure that those who have employed it will desist after bitter experience of its consequences; and, in the circumstances, vast as is the importance of the Petrol Duty, I am prepared to take the risk of defending the Petrol Duty as apart from the duty on kerosene.
    From the moment that the conclusion is reached that dropping the Kerosene Duty will not be fatal or seriously detrimental to the Petrol Duty—from that very moment it is, I am sure, my duty to give effect to the general wishes of the House. If I am going to give effect to the wishes of the House, the sooner I do so the better. Instead of asking all my hon. Friends to vote against an Amendment moved by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley, and to give me a period of a fortnight or three weeks in which to, what may be called, "save my face"—once one has decided that the step is to be taken, take it at once, and the sooner the better. I propose to act now, and to move, while I am still in possession of the House, an Amendment excluding kerosene from the scope of the duty. It is a simple matter. All you have to do is to substitute a new chemical frontier expressed in terms quite unintelligible to all but the experts. That is only the Resolution preliminary to the introduction of the Finance Bill: and this particular formula can be studied at leisure; but, after all, if we are not going on with this part of our taxation, the sooner people outside know the better. Here is the Amendment, which is con-

    1595
    sequential on my Amendment to leave out the word "all":
    To leave out from the word "than," in line 19, to the end of line 21, and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "hydrocarbon oils or mixtures containing hydrocarbon oils of which oils or mixtures not less than 50 per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 185 degrees Centigrade, or of which not less than 95 per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 240 degrees Centigrade, or which give off an inflammable vapour at a temperature of less than 22.8 degrees Centigrade when tested in manner prescribed by the Acts relating to Petroleum."
    The effect of these words, if inserted in the Resolution now before the House, will be to omit kerosene entirely from the scope of the new duty.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: What about the duty already paid?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Sonic minor confusion may arise in the re-adjustment of such a matter, but that is the consequence of the will of Parliament being made effective. Do you stand for the will of Parliament or the Minister, overriding the moving and guiding opinion of this country? I am assured that the adjustment probably involves a matter of£60,000 or £70,000 altogether, and that will not be a serious difficulty. At any rate, it was a, difficulty that would have been increased with every day. In consequence of the House accepting, as they should do, the Amendment which I propose to move, the oil companies will reduce their price of kerosene to the distributors from to-morrow to the pre-duty level. There is one thing I should say by way of precaution. Under the duty in which kerosene was originally included, I provided a rebate for the farmers who used white liquid fuel for the purposes of tillage. But now that kerosene is no longer taxed. I do not propose to give that rebate in respect of the very small quantities of petrol which are used actually to start up the engines. This kerosene relief deals with the case of a lot of minor industries which were distressed—not all, but a good many, and perhaps the cattle foodstuffs of the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy)—and it certainly deals with the case of chicken raisers and certain other minor cases.
    1596
    I have stated this to the House, because I thought it would somewhat curtail their discussion, but I am sure you will permit me, Sir, before I sit down to tender some apologies. I should, first of all, like to apologise to the right hon. Gentleman—I have already done so in part—for having deprived him of an opportunity of pouring out the vials of his wrath. A week ago he had no idea of a kerosene problem, but over the weekend he has been accumulating a fury which he has been waiting to burst upon my head. Even more do I apologise to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), and not only apologise to him but condole with him. He has distinguished himself upon this subject in a manner which deserves the widest public notice. He said on Saturday:
    "You are blessed, for you will not receive, you will give. Every time the lamp illuminates your cottage, and perfumes it, as it used to do in my own days, you will have the feeling that the wick is oozing wealth for Sir Alfred Mond and Mr. Courtauld."
    That is the contribution to an important public controversy of a man who has been nine years Chancellor of the Exchequer and five years Prime Minister, who, after having held the greatest situation in Europe, looks forward with the utmost gusto to another series of "Limehouse Nights." As to the general finance of the scheme, that, of course, is affected by a loss of nearly £3,000,000 of revenue, and I must study the new situation carefully in the leisure which is open to me before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. There is, however, let me say at once, no question of going back upon the concession which has been given in respect of sugar. That is an absolutely necessary act of justice to the refiners, and, now that the Kerosene Duty has been removed, it constitutes a definite mitigation of the lot of the agricultural labourer. Neither is there any question of adding to the burden upon the motorist, as I see that it is suggested in some quarters I should do. I merely make these two observations in order to relieve anxiety, and I will venture, in sitting down, to express the confident conviction that T shall be able to bring the substantial and effective help to productive industry which I had planned, while carrying with me at every stage the overwhelming support of Parliament and of the country.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I have always admired the audacity and dexterity of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but these qualities never shone more resplendently than they have done in the speech he has just delivered. He began by saying that the reason why he had successfully circumvented the moving of the Amendment which stands upon the Paper in my name was to save me the trouble of making a speech in opposition to the duty upon kerosene. The right hon. Gentleman might have saved himself the trouble. The real explanation is not to be found in any fear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had of what I might say in moving that Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman on many occasions during his speech has attempted to convey the impression that the decision that he has just announced to the House is one which he has been contemplating for about a week. It was only at Question time this afternoon that the right hon. Gentleman said that he would not admit any intrusion into the sanctity of the Petrol Duty. A few Members of the House who were present during the Debate on the previous Amendment will have noted the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the Chamber, and it came to my knowledge that he was busily engaged in consultation with experts upon the matter in trying to devise some means by which he could get in this statement before an opportunity was given for us to move our Amendment.
    What is the explanation of this sudden change of attitude on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, his abandonment of a proposal which was perfect when he put it before the House only a week ago? Whether or not I was aware that the duty upon petrol included a tax upon lamp oil, the right hon. Gentleman himself was under no illusion about that matter, because he defended the duty a, week ago, and he practically declared that the working of the Petrol Duty would be absolutely impracticable unless the duty on kerosene wag included, but all the practical difficulties have had to be subordinated to the electoral fortunes of the Tory party. The explanation of this sudden change is to be found in the fact of the revolt of the Tory Members of the House of Commons. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can hide many of the taxes which
    1598
    he has imposed upon the working people of the country. It is much easier to hide the tax he has put upon the working men's cutlery, upon their lace curtains, if they can afford lace curtains, and upon their tobacco, but this was more direct. They were able to appreciate that they were paying this tax. The result was that practically every Member on that side of the House representing a country constituency was inundated with complaints. They had a meeting upstairs, we are told, of 200 Tory Members, and, if rumour be correct, the right hon. Gentleman himself refused to see a deputation of them—
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Rumour is not correct.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: —and handed them over to the Chief Whip. [AN HON. MEMBERS: "He is a reasonable man."] I should prefer to put it that he is a pliable man when pressure is sufficiently strong. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman is starting the discussions upon this Budget very unfortunately. The Budget is not a week old, and yet he has had to make this important surrender. The gilt has been coming off the brick that he presented to the House of Commons, and it will be discovered before long that there are nothing at all but useless bricks in the whole construction of this Budget.
    The right hon. Gentleman several times during his speech referred to the compensation that he had offered in the way of a reduction in the Sugar Duty. I want to say a word or two about that, because that is no compensation at all. The remission of duty which the right hon. Gentleman is giving to the sugar industry is not going to be of any advantage to the consumer at all. As a matter of fact, for several weeks before the introduction of the Budget the sugar trade had been raising their prices, and where a reduction has since taken place it has merely been a return to the prices that existed a month ago. But it never could have been anything like compensation. Even supposing that they did get the, reduction of ¼d. in the pound, what, would that amount to? The right hon. Gentleman's Kerosene Duty would have cost the average family about £4 a year, and they would have required to consume 8n lbs. of sugar a week in order to get the compensation for that increased cost.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The whole yield of the duty was only £2,900,000. How many families would have had to pay £4 a year for that?
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman want to enter into that question, as to what the burden would have been if this duty had been maintained? Then he had better refer to the letters which have been received by Members of his own party. There is unanimity in regard to the burden that that duty would have imposed upon those who had to depend on paraffin oil for lighting and heating purposes, and that unanimity amounts to this, that the duty would have been between £3 and £4 per year. Therefore, I repeat that it would have required a consumption of 80 pounds of sugar every week, even if there had been ¼d. reduction, in order to get the compensation. Now the right hon. Gentleman said that he was making this concession to the general wish of the House. How did he know what the general wish of the House was? The House has never had an opportunity of expressing its views. It was not a concession to the House. An hon. Member opposite said that there was an Amendment on the Paper. But there are many other Amendments on the Paper. Does the fact that an Amendment is down on the Paper indicate that the terms of the Amendment express the general wish of the House? The simple fact is that the revolt in the Tory party has become widespread. I congratulate hon. Members opposite on the fact that for the first time in over three years they have been able to muster up sufficient courage. That is the explanation of the statement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just made.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That is your argument.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: It certainly is not my argument, because the right hon. Gentleman had not the opportunity of hearing my argument, but it is evident that the arguments of Members of his own party had more influence upon him than any arguments I have made. The explanation of that may be that arguments of the kind that hon. Members opposite are able to put before the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeal to his political instincts and his perception of
    1600
    political expediency rather than anything that I may say. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is going later to move this rigmarole of an Amendment. There is not a Member in the House who knows what it means, who knows whether it means the withdrawal of the kerosene tax or not. We have got to take it on trust. It is what the right hon. Gentleman calls a new chemical frontier and when we come to examine it, we may find it is no more of an impenetrable frontier than the one he has had to abandon. If this rigmarole does mean the withdrawal of the kerosene tax, then we welcome it. [Interruption.] For what purpose were we going to move our Amendment except to try to get the withdrawal of the tax? We welcome the Amendment, but we express no gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman. It has not been withdrawn because it would impose a burden upon a large number of working people; it has been withdrawn solely and simply because the Tory party have come to the conclusion that it would lose them votes wholesale in the next election.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: in a few sentences I wish to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Amendment which he has moved. He has during the week-end been—to use his own phrase—condensing a good deal of vapour against me, and he has discharged it on the present occasion. He has referred to certain rhetorical experiences which he and I had in common in 1909. May I, in all modesty, admit now that he completely outstripped me in language and in doctrine, and that in consequence, after one experience, I retired and left the field entirely to him. As I have already opposed this tax and given my grounds for doing so, I welcome its withdrawal but, as I said to him last week, this is not the last withdrawal he will have to make. I ventured to tell him last week that this was an unconsidered scheme from beginning to end. He has already knocked one of its pillars down. If he had had the slightest acquaintance with the problem, he would never have proposed it. Anyone who had had the slightest experience of rural districts, who had lived there in humble circumstances, knew that the paraffin tax was one that would hit millions of people in this country, and would hit the very poorest, not only for purposes

    1601
    of illumination, but because it was used for the purpose of their very humble duties. The right hon. Gentleman referred to one of them in a very slighting manner, but there are thousands of people who earn a living by that very simple means and to whom the tax would mean an expenditure of £10 or £20 a year. Anyone with the slightest acquaintance with the problem knew it was an impossible proposition. What I said to him last week, I say again to-day about his other proposals. I know that. I cannot go into it, but I say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be bound to withdraw his postponement till October next year, will be bound to recast the whole of his proposals with regard to discrimination. He is just beginning to retreat, and in a very short time he will be scuttling away amid the jeers of his supporters.
    Mr. TOMLINSON: In rising to address the House for the first time, may I crave the indulgence of the House for a moment or two. I would like, first of all, to say that, as I have not the ability of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer in changing a speech that he proposed to make, the House will understand that it is more difficult for me to speak than it was for him under these changed circumstances. Just as I felt there was a very strong case to be made out against the imposition of this tax, so I feel now that my gratitude to the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to be just as strong as my dissatisfaction was before he made his statement. The other day the Chancellor submitted his scheme to the House with great ability in a very brilliant speech, and proved himself a great Parliamentarian, but there are three words which are the hardest of all to pronounce in any language, and no man who cannot pronounce them can be said to have attained the heights of manhood. These words are, "I was wrong," and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has proved this afternoon that he is not only a Parliamentarian and a statesman but a man in admitting that he was wrong in submitting the proposals he made to the House only last week. I was impressed by his appeal to regard these proposals as a national scheme, and I, for one, will respond to that appeal in the spirit in which it was made. I take strong exception to some of the proposals
    1602
    submitted by the Chancellor. In my judgment they are not the best way to deal with the great question of rating reform with which he proposes to deal.
    The dwellers in agricultural districts and in rural areas will welcome the announcement he has made to-night. I would like to emphasise to Members of the House how serious such an imposition would have been on the very poorest in the land. The Chancellor has referred to the cottagers, but it also affects very seriously those who are engaged in one of our most important branches of agriculture, poultry farming. I have the honour to represent a constituency which is the centre of that industry. I have had letters not from agricultural workers only, but from a very gallant colonel in Lancaster and from the Archdeacon of Lancaster, a man who loves his fellowmen and wants to be of service to them. The Archdeacon in no uncertain voice expresses the hope that the tax will be taken off. He says:
    "I do not think that Mr. Churchill's advisers know how people in the country live. He would never have dared to tax the gas or electric light of the artisan in the town. The agricultural worker has lower wages than his brother in the town."
    This tax is not only a tax on illuminants in the home; nearly every house in the country districts has a cooker, and the cost to some of these homes in the country can hardly have been realised. I have an instance of an ex-service man whose rates on his land are 13s. 3d. in the year. If this tax had been imposed it would have cost that man £3 6s. 8d. I spoke to another man, and I got him to take down his rate paper. He said that he paid his rates on agricultural land and they cost him £5, but a tax of 4d. on a gallon of kerosene would have cost him £8 15s. It is not only a relief to the cottagers in the rural areas that the tax is to be withdrawn, but it is a great relief to those in the poultry industry. I want, in their name, and on behalf of many who would have been seriously affected, to express my gratitude to the Chancellor for the change he is making.
    Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: I am sure the House has listened with very great pleasure to the speech we have just heard and would wish me to offer congratulation to the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Tomlinson) upon a most able speech delivered under peculiarly trying

    1603
    circumstances, not only in having to follow three of the acknowledged leaders of the House in debate, but also in having to adapt his speech to a change in the proceedings of the House. In a great Budget of this kind there must be many rough edges, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be very grateful to the hon. Members on this side of the House for assisting him to remove one of those rough edges. We are heartily grateful to him for meeting us in the way he has done, because, like him, we were convinced that this duty would have been felt as a great hardship by the working classes of this country, and in the agricultural districts it would have meant that the agricultural labourer and his wife were being called upon to subsidise the remission of rates which is going to come into operation later. The growers and smallholders did not naturally in the least desire that any relief which they are to gain should be obtained at the expense of extra hardship to the agricultural labourer. As one who had put down an Amendment dealing with this particular duty, I am very glad to accept the remission which the Chancellor has now offered. I should just like to correct what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) has said about the question of the deputation, because I feel that he has discovered a mare's nest. I can assure him, as one of the deputation, that there would have been no difficulty in regard to a deputation to any Minister to whom we wished to go. As a matter of fact, we went to the Chief Whip because we asked to see him. On behalf of the agricultural population, I beg to thank him and the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the way in which they have met us.
    Mr. W. BAKER: I will not keep the House more than two or three minutes, but it is important that it should be made perfectly clear to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he will be judged in this matter not by this afternoon's proceedings but by his intentions. There can be no doubt that it was the intention of the Chancellor, after obtaining the best advice available to him, to place a very heavy burden upon agricultural workers. In many cases it would have been a burden which the agricultural labourer could not bear, and this afternoon we have the spectacle of the
    1604
    Chancellor throwing over his scientific advisers in order to placate, and, in my view, rightly to placate, the representatives of the agricultural interests throughout the country. When the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the financial burden which this tax on kerosene would have placed upon agricultural workers there were queries from the benches opposite, and it is for that reason that I am speaking now. Immediately the Budget statement was disclosed I received a letter from a St. Dunstan's man—with all that that means—who wrote to me to say that in his case, living in a cottage on a cold hillside within 20 miles of London, the duty would mean 1s. 8d. to 2s. 4d. a week extra. The Chancellor of the Exchequer put the figure at 8d. a week in the case of the average agricultural labourer, and I admit the case which I am quoting now is not typical of agricultural workers, the circumstances being peculiar; but if I can make the House understand how the tax affected this man I think there will be no doubt hon. Members will accept the smaller figure which was put before them by the ex-Chancellor.
    In order that there might be no doubt whatever as to the facts I wrote to my friend asking him to give me the fullest details of his expenditure, and being a particularly careful man he was able, by consulting his household books, to give me exact figures and exact dates. The figures are taken from his grocery book, which can be inspected, and are as follow: Summer period, from 6–4–1926 to 7–10–1926, a period of 23 weeks, 56 gallons, an average of 2.4 gallons a week when three weeks' holiday are taken into account. There are two winter periods. From 7–10–1926 to 6–1–1927, a period of 13 weeks, 74 gallons, average 5.7 gallons per week. From 6–1–1927 to 30–4–1927, 16 weeks, 110 gallons, average 6.9 gallons. Those figures demonstrate beyond doubt that the statement made by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) was fully justified. This resident in a country district, with nothing beyond his pension to support him, would have been subjected to a burden out of all proportion to his income; and his case shows that the burden upon the average agricultural labourer would have been at least 8d. per week.

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    I rejoice to think that sanity has come to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter. I do not think it matters very much to the agricultural labourer how the result was secured, seeing that the danger has been removed, but I am very much inclined to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find, as he has already been told, that the removal of this tax on kerosene will eventually destroy the whole of his scheme.
    Mr. HANNON: I only intervene for a few moments to make certain representations to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on a matter concerning the Petrol Duty as it affects the owners of cars. My hon. Friend knows perfectly well that in the motor world to-day one of the difficulties which the ordinary man engaged in selling new cars has to deal with is the question of the second-hand car which he nearly always has to take in part exchange. This tax on petrol affects all cars alike regardless of their age. For example, it a man has a car four years old and desires to purchase a new one, a question which largely affects the price for the second-hand car—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that we are not now discussing the whole question of the Petrol Duty, but only the question of the Kerosene Duty.
    Mr. HANNON: I apologise, Mr. Speaker. I will say no more now.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: I desire to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the concession which he has made. I represent a district in which there are a great many people who use kerosene for household purposes. In the far outlying islands they have to pay a heavy enough transport tax on this kerosene without this additional impost. Just fancy living in an island where you have a monopolist steam-boat company which charges 10s. for the transport of a barrel of paraffin. Divide that charge over the 40 gallons which that barrel will hold, and you will see that already the people there pay a burden which is far too heavy, and this additional duty would have broken their backs. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer deserves great credit for what he has done—
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: He is a great man.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: —and I do not think the concession has been received as graciously as it ought to have been. When the facts were brought graphically before him, by the Members of his own party, who are always—I speak for myself, and I think for all the other Members of the party—out to see that the poor are not oppressed by taxation, it was very gracious of him so quickly to give effect to our representations, and I think the speech made by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Tomlinson) was made in the right spirit. It was a very gracious act on his part to abandon the speech which he had prepared and to express his thanks in the way that he has done. I think what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done will satisfy the country that in the great constructive undertaking which he has in hand—the greatest constructive undertaking which any Chancellor of the Exchequer has ever taken up—he and those who support him are out to achieve this object with the minimum of burdens upon those who can least afford to pay. He has great difficulties in front of him, but we all know the end which he is endeavouring to achieve, and therefore a more or less national effort ought to be made by every Member of this House to assist him in that great task.
    I am a little surprised at the advice which appears to have been given to the Chancellor by his skilled advisers, because I think some of them might have seen that the Kerosene Duty was going to be a heavy burden. I am surprised, too, at the figure at which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer put the burden, supported as it was by the last speaker. The cases they cited must be those in which kerosene is largely used for cooking. We know perfectly well that as a result of the trouble in the coal industry oil lamps are now spreading all over the countryside, and are being used much more for cooking purposes, and, where that is so, there is no doubt that the burden imposed by this duty would have been much too heavy. The action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day goes to show that he has a very wide, open, sympathetic view in regard to the proposals he is making. I wish he could have taken the taxes off some of the other spirits which are supposed to be so inflammable, because that would have been very beneficial; but though he has not seen his

    1607
    way to do that, at any rate in this ease his action deserves that he should get the greatest possible credit from all parties, irrespective of their political standpoint.
    Mr. GROVES: When the Chancellor proposed to place a duty upon kerosene the bulk of the poor people in the division which I represent were filled with consternation, and I have listened with great pleasure this afternoon to the announcement that that duty is to be removed. We on these benches, however, are not going to be so effusive in giving bouquets to the Chancellor, and in referring to this concession as something which is gracefully given and ought to be gratefully received. It was his intention, when introducing the Budget, to place this duty upon kerosene used in the homes of very poor people. In our lives, we estimate the qualities of our friends according to their intentions towards us. It was the intention of the Government to impose this duty. I have on many occasions listened in this House to questions as to what our party have really done. I think we can claim that as a result of our persistent opposition and the outcry we have raised against the increasing burdens proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Government has given way. We know that political parties are always much concerned as to the possible effect of their proposals in the country, and we are quite conscious of what has taken place in the constituencies represented by hon. Members opposite. I wish to say that I think what has happened may be claimed as a great victory for the Opposition, because we have since last Tuesday called attention to this particular tax up and down the country. Although I do not wish to use the word "grateful," I, want to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his advisers have been sufficiently perceptive to realise the commonsense which was to be found at the bottom of our criticisms, and it is a pleasure to realise that without going through a lot of speeches the Government have been able to appreciate the force of what has been said by Members of the Opposition upon this tax.
    I think the Labour party can justly claim this is a victory. I say this without any hesitation. I say that without the work of the Opposition in Parliament
    1608
    paraffin would have cost the people 4d. per gallon more. The opposition to this tax was as inflammable as the material itself, and it was caught by some of the followers of the Government who assisted us in our pressure on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that has produced the victory which we have achieved. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not to take too many bouquets, because what has happened is largely due to those who had called attention to the effect of this tax upon the poor people. What we have achieved will give us greater confidence in getting remissions of taxation in other directions.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON: I do not envy the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) in the task he is going to undertake of trying to convince his constituents that this change of policy is entirely due to the Labour party. It is well known that anybody who introduces a duty on oil would for administrative reasons like to distinguish clearly between diesel oil and white oil, and I think any Chancellor of the Exchequer is well advised to start with a measure with a cut at this point. It has been found that there are political reasons operating against this tax and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has rightly changed his policy. I want to warn the House that, although hon. Members laughed at the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he read the Amendment he is going to move, yet the House must appreciate what is meant by it, and when you talk about flashpoint and boiling point they are not the silly things they sound like, they have got to be appreciated and understood. It is no good the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying that you cannot use paraffin in motor ears, because it will be found that it can be done. The objections he raises even on the question of spoiling the lubricating oil has already been got over by the use of distilling filters already being fitted on some American cars. By the change in the position of the cut there are going to be many administrative difficulties in the way of operating the tax now, and although I congratulate the Chancellor on his change of policy, which I think is a wise change, yet I commiserate very much with the Customs of this country in the task which faces them in the collection of the duty.
    Mr. HARDIE: Whenever the hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) speaks in this House he always does so front personal experience and knowledge, arid that is something which tells especially on a question like the one we are now considering. The hon. and gallant Member has hinted that the reasons for this change of policy were political reasons. That means that whether a thing is good or bad for the country from a scientific point of view political exigencies are sometimes allowed to interfere with the carrying out of something which is undoubtedly for the benefit of the country. That seems to me to indicate a very low type of mentality in dealing with the affairs of the nation. Reference has been made to hydrocarbon oils and the flashpoint of oils, and the dangers that lie in this direction are not understood by Members of this House.
    Reference has been made to the technical men who have been advising the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I entirely disagree with the statements that have been made on that point. Scientific men answer the questions put to them, and they were not consulted as to the incidence of this tax. I think the men who have been advising the Chancellor of the Exchequer have done very well indeed. Let me take the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has told us to-day that he has been thinking about this matter for over a week, but I think he must have been thinking about it for a much longer period because he said in his Budget statement:
    "Weighing the issue between coal and oil, and weighing the issues between road and rail, and contrasting the rapidly expanding pleasure traffic with the depressed and struggling condition of our basic industries, the Government have come to the conclusion that a new duty should be imposed upon certain kinds of imported oils."
    Then the right hon. Gentleman goes on to say:
    "I am advised that there is no difficulty in establishing a chemical frontier between the light and heavy oils.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1928; col. 856, Vol. 216.]
    If the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so definite about the establishment of a frontier what was the necessity for an immediate change? The fact that the right hon. Gentleman has changed his opinion is no reflection upon those who
    1610
    gave him advice. The fact is that this change is entirely due to political influences. Even in respect of lubricating oil and turpentine the Chancellor was absolutely definite. He was prepared to give the selling prices of petrol; he quoted the prices of petrol per gallon, and he gave the various falls that had taken place in price, but he did not give the selling price of kerosene, although he gave the reductions which have taken place during the last five years and the last 15 months. If the right hon. Gentleman had been certain of what he was doing he would have given the selling prices of kerosene, and ha would at once have realised the burden of his new tax in the case of an average family using kerosene for lighting and cooking purposes. On this point the right hon. Gentleman spoke in no uncertain language and he said:
    "Thus an undoubted stimulus will be afforded to the production of Scottish shale oil and other British oils—the shale miners are extremely distressed—to benzol and liquid fuel manufactured by all the new scientific processes from British coal."
    Later on the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
    "This 4d. will have a very great effect in bridging the gap between scientific production, which is now perfectly possible on the large scale, of oil from coal and commercial production, which has not yet been achieved."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1928; col. 858, Vol. 216.]
    What does the Chancellor of the Exchequer say now? He is not going to proceed with a large part of the tax which was going to do so many great things. The greatest of those things was that there was going to be a great stimulus given to the shale oil industry, and the same tax was going to give a real life to all the latest methods of distilling coal and getting oil. The right hon. Gentleman made those statements evidently after full consideration, and having stated that this tax was going to build up all those industries, and that it was going to put real life into and electrify all those little industries producing kerosene oil, he now comes forward and tells us that the picture he drew was an exaggeration. My point is that you cannot build up any industry by protecting it either by a tax of 4d. a gallon or anything else. You can never build up any industry by erecting round it a tariff wall. The difficulties of any industry become all the greater the more

    1611
    you seek to protect it. We have heard what has happened in the case of the people who would have had to pay this tax. I want to know from the right hon. Gentleman whether he is going to listen to the men employed in the shale industry in the same way that he listened to those who met him upstairs in regard to this tax.
    Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to listen to those who are interested in the new method of the carbonisation of coal? Is the Chancellor going to consider these things or is he going to act purely for political reasons? If there had been any sincerity in any political party at any time in regard to the development of British industries, no new industry would require to wait for a tax of 4d. or 2d. or anything else; such industries would be taken up in the interests of the whole nation. What we are dealing with to-day is the power of vested interests in relation to oils, and especially kerosene. The kerosene production in Scotland, before it was taken over by the Anglo-Persian, could face anything in the world, but after it was taken over there was a manipulation of financial relations, and as a result of that manipulation it can always be made to appear that oil from shale in Scotland is dearer than oil from abroad. I deny the statement. Given a proper basis of capital charges, you could still face the world in ordinary competition.
    In opening his Budget, the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke as if he was a great angel with white wings, who was bringing new life to a dying industry in Scotland and was giving a great impetus to the new methods of dealing with coal. Yet to-day he comes among us, saying in effect: "I have unhinged my wings. I am only an ordinary politician, only an ordinary type of man who can be dealt with by great numbers in my party. I am ready to say whatever the majority in my party says. I have no principles of any kind. I have no convictions in regard to oil. I am ready to do what my party tells me, so long as they pay me my salary." That seems to be the mentality of the Chancellor. The Amendment is to leave out the word "all." Is this to meet certain vested interests in the oil trade, to give them another way out for making huge profits by swindling the public?
    1612
    That which has been read to-day makes it possible for anything that can give the flash point to be sold as kerosene. If the proposal is accepted there is an opening for every form of adulteration and misrepresentation so far as oil is concerned. Those who know the oil trade, know how much it lends itself to that kind of thing. My complaint is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is simply becoming the political football of a party with a huge majority. How can a Chancellor of the Exchequer like that interest anyone? How can he make anyone feel that he is sincere, or that the party behind him is sincere! So far as kerosene is concerned, every kind of political dodge has been used in this matter. I want to warn the Chancellor that he is only at the beginning of his difficulty. I wish to pay a compliment to the technical men, and I hope that what takes place to-day will not reflect on them as being incapable of advising, but that it will be realised that our present position is due rather to the political juggling of a Chancellor of the Exchequer who is ready to become the football of a party.
    Mr. A. M. WILLIAMS: I wish to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his concession. We have been told that it is votes and votes alone that brought about this position. I do not believe that we think more or less of votes than any other political party. It may be that the reason why the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), while welcoming the concession, did not thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for it, was that he thought he was losing anticipated votes. The real reason for the concession is that this duty almost singled out the agricultural labourer before anyone else in the country. If we abandon the bandying of words about votes we have to admit that the two classes of people whom, above all, the House wants to help are the agricultural labourers and the coal miners. In that fact I believe is to be found the real reason why this concession was made. I believe the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was wrong when he said that this was the first stage in a big retreat. In the great constructive scheme of the Chancellor of the Exchequer this proposal relating to kerosene seemed to be one of the very few weak points, and on behalf of an agricultural consti-

    1613
    tuency I wish to thank him for having rectified it. I welcome very much the rest of his constructive Budget.
    Question, "That the word 'all' stand part of the Resolution," put, and negatived.
    Mr. WILLIAM GRAHAM: I beg to move, in line 8, to leave out the word "fourpence," and to insert instead there of the words "one penny."
    This Amendment would have the effect of reducing, from 4d. to a 1d., the duty on imported oils. There is a consequential Amendment which would reduce the Excise to a corresponding amount. Following the practice in these Debates, it would be easier to address ourselves to the general subject on the Amendment I have moved. It would, of course, be out of order to refer to the rate relief scheme of the Government, but this duty on imported oils is intended to supply a very large part of the revenue for these rating proposals, and is defended on these grounds. Our case will be that this is altogether an undesirable method to adopt. First of all, it is, of course, an indirect impost on something which is to a large extent the raw material of an important industry. In the second place, it is so far of a protective character. To both of these principles in the main I and my colleagues are opposed. I do not say for a moment that we press any extreme Free Trade consideration as regards this particular duty on imported oils, but, broadly, we take the view that, in so far as these duties limit or restrict the aggregate volume of trade, they are undesirable, and that is the primary principle which we should apply to a proposal of this kind.
    But I pass almost immediately to more important aspects of this scheme. It is perfectly plain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been impressed by the undoubted prosperity of the motor industry in Great Britain, and he has taken the view that it is quite possible to impose a duty of this kind, falling in the main on the users of motor-cars, without in any way restricting that advance. Statistics in 1924 indicated that the aggregate volume of the products of the motor industry were probably in the neighbourhood of £100,000,000, including cerain adjacent industries which I need not specify. In
    1614
    1927 the total had risen to £135,000,000. It was also suggested that the industry was responsible for at least 26 to 30 per cent. of the activity in the engineering trade. We quite recognise that, in spite of the depression in industry and commerce during the past six years, this particular industry has made a striking advance. But that is no reason in the world why in a proposal of this kind we should justify or defend a duty which in our view is levied on a basis which is unfair or wrong.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain what he means to suggest by that statement?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I was referring to the aggregate value of the products of the motor industry, not to oil companies or anything like that. I was about to argue that, even if an industry is very prosperous, as that industry undoubtedly is, it is wrong to select either the industry or the users or owners of motorcars more particularly for the contribution which is to be devoted in substance to the rate relief of other productive industries in the State. There were all kinds of alternative ways in which the Government might have met the situation. It seems to me perfectly plain That, having regard to the fact that they are going to raise about £14,000,000 within the present financial year, rising to £18,000,000, and proceeding beyond that to the tune of an increase of at least £1,250,000 per annum, they have come to the conclusion that this industry is capable of continually increasing prosperity, and that the financial foundation of their scheme of rate relief, at all events on this head, will never be in very serious danger.
    If we are to apply any kind of relief to productive industries, it is elementary fair play that we should seek some tax of a widely national character, preferably based upon pronounced ability to pay or certainly on some form of luxury effort, and that we should not impose it on the raw material of a great industry, even if we make allowances for the commercial elements involved on the lines that the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests. So on that ground I think there is unfair discrimination in this tax, and that that should be sufficient to enable us to resist it. But the second

    1615
    and the far more interesting arid important part of the attack lies in certain statements which were made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the relationship of road and railway transport in this country. I find it very difficult indeed to understand why he went out of his way to justify a duty on petrol during what is, after all, a much wider controversy, in which the House has been recently interested and which is at the moment. before a Joint Committee.
    8.0 p.m.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to the Road Fund, and to the fact that about £50,000,000 per annum is being spent from that and other sources on road maintenance and development. He proceeded from that point, in justification of this duty, to say that, if that scheme of road development diverted classes of traffic from the old-established railways, then this was a step which, as he thought, was definitely undesirable. But the right hon. Gentleman could hardly have forgotten that, during the past two or three years, he had been responsible for raiding the Road Fund to the extent of £21,000,000 of £22,000,000. I should like to remind the House that, so far from that being a surplus in the ordinary sense of the term, by far the greater part of that money was definitely ear-marked for schemes of road maintenance and development which would give employment to a very considerable number of people. Already, therefore, in the quite recent history of this problem, he has done a great deal, directly and indirectly, to penalise the motor car industry and the users of motor cars as far as the roads are concerned. During the general Debate on the Budget proposals, he reminded the House that, under the Railway Rates Act, 1921, the railways have been placed in an exceptional and in some respects a peculiar position.
    I entirely agree with the evidence which has been tendered so far to the Select Committee, that what is offered under that Act of Parliament is nothing in the nature of a firm guarantee to the railway amalgamations of the standard revenue of 1913. In the nature of things, I do not believe that you can give a firm guarantee; or a guarantee in the strict sense of the term, to the railway com-
    1616
    panies. But, at all events, that Act of Parliament did say that, with economical working and subject to a great many technical considerations, the railways were to be safeguarded up to the point that the Railway Rates Tribunal could achieve it, in providing the standard revenue of the last pre-War year. For what it is worth, that is a concession to the four great railway amalgamations, which cover about £1,300,000,000 of capital and which will stand to gain by, I have no doubt, the efficiency and concentration which schemes of amalgamation must bring in due course. When we look to this duty, which was defended by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer as tending to hold the balance evenly between road and rail transport, we must look to that recent change dating from 1921. But from beginning to end of this Debate the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said not a word on that point. We have already made it clear that, in our view, until you have something resembling public ownership and public control of transport, these services must be regarded as complementary; but you must not prejudge the issue, and, beyond all question, you are prejudging it in this duty of 4d. on imported oils with a corresponding amount on the home-produced article.
    I would not have the same argument if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not made this case of holding the balance evenly. But that is not what you are doing. At this very moment, a Select Committee of our colleagues is engaged in prolonged consideration of an elaborate argument which is being led by the railway amalgamations in defence of their Bills which, if passed, will give them power for development and progress in road transport of the most extensive character. What emerges is that, first of all, you have a kind of regulation, and, as far as it goes, the protection of the Act of 1921. In the next place, you have a large inroad to the tune of at least £22,000,000 on the Road Fund within recent years. Third, and not least important, you have a fresh impost of 4d. per gallon on the raw material of that great road transport industry. In other words, three steps of a very impressive character have been taken while a Select Committee is beginning the investigation of a scheme designed to place road and

    1617
    rail traffic on some kind of sensible and, I trust, co-operative basis.
    For these reasons, I believe this duty to be a very mischievous proposal it does not matter to the House of Commons to what object the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to devote the proceeds. That object may be perfectly beneficial; it may, be designed to help certain productive industries in the terms of what is to be a very difficult and elaborate scheme. But, in the last resort, economically considered, you are not doing your best for productive industry if you arrest or diminish the progress of what I concede is, in the main, a prosperous industry at the same time. It may be very difficult to trace the exact effects of the increase of 4d. a gallon, but that there must be effects hardly anyone would dispute. For these reasons, and certainly also for the reasons that I believe there are other and better alternative sources where this revenue could be found for the assistance of local authorities, I move this Amendment.
    Mr. HANNON: I am sure that the House will have listened, as it always does, with great interest and great edification to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham). The right hon. Gentleman, it seems to me, was in serious difficulties in trying to find a real charge to bring against the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to this duty. The right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh and his colleagues on the Front Bench opposite and the benches behind him have always professed the greatest sympathy for productive industry, but they have never been able, as far as I can recollect, to produce any positive scheme which would provide the means of giving assistance to productive industry and to our depressed agriculture, both of which stand so much in need of help. I think the House must congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on having made provision for the imposition of this duty—objectionable as it may be to great numbers of people—in order to provide against the most serious industrial disaster that has ever afflicted this country. It is quite true that a duty of 4d. on petrol is a serious consideration to the man who uses and
    1618
    to the man who manufactures a car; but the motor trade of the country as a whole has accepted this duty with general satisfaction.
    Mr. DUNNICO: Nothing of the kind!
    Mr. HANNON: There has not been any organised resistance from the manufacturers or users of motor cars in this country since the Budget statement was made.
    Mr. DUNNICO: The Automobile Association issued a memorandum against it.
    Mr. HANNON: In our complex community, somebody is always dissatisfied about something. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman is not sometimes dissatisfied himself, although he is one of the most benevolent Members of this House. But in the imposition of any tax you are bound to have discontent when the imposition is made upon one section of the community and not upon another. But the motor users and manufacturer have not received this duty with the volume of protest which might have been expected. The right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh, who is intimately acquainted with the railway situation and all its complexities, suggests that this is not the right way of balancing the relationship of the two great transport systems of the country. Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean that the competition of petrol-driven vehicles on the roads against the railways is to continue indefinitely as at present? He says that a Committee is examining this question at the moment, but even after that Committee has decided, some means must be found of enabling the railways to carry the heavy traffic on better terms than at present. The right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh has not proposed any means by which money can be provided to make that desirable object possible. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is laying the foundation of a new economic system which is bound to have far-reaching results in this country. No one can close his eyes to the unhappy condition of the agricultural industry. From time to time in this House we have proposals made of various kinds for the purpose of improving the conditions of the rural community, but, until those proposals have been presented to the House, completely releasing agriculture from all local rating—
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have been considering whether a discussion on the objects of this duty would be in order on this Amendment, and have consulted Mr. Speaker on the subject. The result is that hon. Members must devote themselves to the question of this duty by itself. Of course, some reference to its objects would not be out of order, but any detailed examination of the rating proposals would not be in order.
    Mr. HANNON: I shall, of course, observe your ruling, but the right hon. Gentleman did allude to the appropriation of the money realised by the imposition of the duty, and that is why I was referring to the relationship between road and rail transport as affected by the proceeds of the duty. I would like now to put to the Financial Secretary a question which I was out of order in raising earlier, and that is in regard to the difficult position in which motor manufacturers find themselves in relation to this duty and the already existing horse-power tax when they have to dispose of second-hand cars. In this country to-day one of the most embarrassing questions with which the motor salesman has to deal is the disposal of a new car where the possible purchaser has an old one. The first question that is invariably put to him is as to how an arrangement can be arrived at whereby the second-hand car can be taken over by the manufacturer and a new car purchased in exchange, with the necessary balancing compensation in price.
    It seems to me that, in regard to the imposition of the horse-power tax on cars, say, three or four years old or more, some consideration ought to be given to the purchaser of one of these secondhand cars, so that he may not have to pay the same tax as is now imposed on a new car. For example, if, say, a 20 horse-power car, with a tax of £20, which has been in the possession of an owner for four years, is being disposed of to a purchaser, and is per horse-power per annum were allowed for the age of the car in the tax, it would mean a considerable encouragement to a purchaser, because the experience of everyone who has had to deal with cars is that people very frequently say that they would be quite prepared to purchase a car but the heavy tax upon it prevents them from doing so. If the Financial Secretary would
    1620
    take into consideration the possibility of making, in the Finance Bill, some modification of the incidence of this tax, it would be very acceptable to the great body of motorists who are frequently glad to have an opportunity of purchasing a second-hand car.
    Indeed, to manufacturers of large cars especially, this problem is a very serious one indeed. There are to-day, in London and the great provincial towns, many large firms who have acquired cars and who find themselves in considerable difficulty when it come to the question of disposing of a second-hand car and replenishing their stock of new cars, and perhaps the Government, in the interests of the motor industry and of increasing the production of new ears, would, when the Finance Bill is before the House, consider whether some change in that direction could not be entertained, I am quite satisfied that this duty, while on the whole it is a burden to the motor car user and manufacturer, will be accepted without any objection on this side of the House, and, in view of the fact that the proceeds of the tax are to be employed in a direction which will enable productive industry and agriculture to find their feet and re-establish themselves with some hope of regaining their old competitive power against the world, I am sure we all warmly approve of the action of the Chancellor in embodying the tax in his financial statement.
    Mr. RILEY: I support this Amendment in the first instance because I am strongly opposed not only to the policy of this duty, but to every similar policy which seeks to impose taxation upon the pleasure or convenience of the public and upon the processes of commerce and trade. I oppose this tax because it will impose an utterly unfair burden upon a certain section of the community who, in respect of the special privileges which they enjoy, or the special uses which they make of motors for convenience or enjoyment or for purposes of trade, have already contributed in taxation a perfectly adequate amount having regard to their class and to the uses to which their cars are put. Roughly speaking, the persons who would he affected by this tax may be divided into three classes. In the first place, there are the users of motor cars, either for personal enjoyment and convenience or for industry and

    1621
    trade. There is an enormous number of people who have small motor cars for the purpose of increased facilities for recreation, and whose incomes range from £250 to £500 a year. They are already making, for the special privilege of having a small car, a special contribution not called for from other sections of the community, amounting to some £10, £12, or £20 per annum as a special licence fee. I have in mind the tens of thousands of people with comparatively small incomes who, within the limits of their incomes, have tried to secure a small car for family recreation and so forth. Under this proposal, as the duty now stands, that class of user will he compelled to ray an extra. £5 or £6 a year, in addition to the £12 or £20 that they are already paying, and I submit that that in itself is an entirely unjust imposition upon a particular class of the community. There are also other small users of cars. There is the small man whose income may not even reach £250 a year who has his car, not simply for recreation, but as part of his business. He is, say, a traveller using a small car, not simply for pleasure at week-ends, but from day to day in his business, and in his case, on the top of his tax of £10 to £20, this new duty will impose an additional £12 or £13.
    Mr. SAMUEL: How does the hon. Member calculate that?
    Mr. RILEY: A man who is using his car as a traveller all through the day—
    M SAMUEL: Give the number of miles.
    Mr. RILEY: —will, according to the evidence of a man in this position, have to pay an additional 5s. per week. You may get £10 or £12 a year according to the use that is made of it. I will not quarrel with the hon. Gentleman as to a pound or two. Say it is £8, £9 or 210 a year. I have a small car and I can only use it at the week-end. I average some 10,000 miles a year. It will mean to me £5, or £6 a year extra.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I have made a mental calculation. Take a small two-seater doing the enormous distance of 18,000 miles a year. At 30 miles to a gallon it will cost exactly £10 extra for Petrol Tax at 4d. per gallon.
    Mr. RILEY: Really the hon. Gentleman's interjection has no real point in
    1622
    it. There can be no question as to the enormous additional burden placed by the tax on the user of the car. I have spoken of the small people with limited incomes whom no party would seek to burden with additional taxation, a very large and deserving class. Let us go to others. Take, for instance, a less deserving section, the wealthy who can afford a Bolls Royce, or a super-Rolls Royce, to whom this impost will be no burden at all, or one hardly worth mentioning, and who can of course contribute through Super-tax. We need not waste time over that. Now I come to a third very large class who consume petrol in commercial vehicles for all kinds of trade and industry. What is going to be the impost in their case? Heavy cars pay a £50 tax, and they will now be called upon to pay probably 230 or £40 more. My right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) has handed me some figures. At 20 miles a gallon—
    Mr. SAMUEL: Thirty.
    Mr. RILEY: Assume it is 30 miles at 500 miles a week, that is 5s., and in 52 weeks £12 10s. We need not quarrel about that. Now let us come to the third class of people. In view of the arguments used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the Budget, I wonder in what way the principle of the tax upon the use of commercial vehicles can be justified. In expounding the Budget, the right hon. Gentleman said that this proposal affirmed the principle:
    "that the tools and plants of production ought not to be subject to taxation, but only the profits arising from their use."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1928; col. 865, Vol. 216.]
    What in the world is a commercial car but a tool or plant in connection with the industry? In face of this, and in spite of previous arguments, the Chancellor is placing a direct impost upon trade tools and the means of production. There is no justification for this tax. It is utterly indefensible, and unfair to a very deserving section of the community. It does not help industry but places an additional burden on it, and all it does is to save wealth bearing a burden it ought to bear.
    Sir JAMES GRANT: Though I desire to make some criticism of the incidence of this duty, I think, broadly speaking,

    1623
    it is a good duty. I wish to call attention to the hardship it entails upon a certain industry. I refer to the motor omnibuses, which play so important a part in the transport of passengers throughout the country, and the burden that falls on these public utility companies which use these omnibuses. I suppose there is no industry in the country that is at present subject to more unfair competition than the motor-omnibus industry, and as a consequence, naturally, the charges to the public in fares are cut down to the lowest point.
    Mr. T. SHAW: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the fare from Victoria Station to Charing Cross has been raised from 1d. to 2d. since the duty was instituted?
    Sir J. GRANT: I was not aware of that fact. I was dealing more with the industry in country districts. I say fares were reduced before the duty was put on to the lowest terms economically possible. One of the most important raw materials of the industry is petrol. A further thing that these public utility companies have to keep in mind is that the present price of petrol is low. They have to keep in mind the probability, almost the certainty, that before this financial year is through there will be a distinct rise in the price. I say advisedly, and on information on which I can rely, that the tax of 4d. itself will under present conditions turn any margin of profit into a loss, and if the price of petrol goes up to 7d., I do not believe a single company of that nature, which performs great and useful and essential public services will be able to carry on under these circumstances. The only thing will be that fares will he raised and facilities to the public will be decreased. I have information with regard to such a company in my constituency which is a very typical instance of what will happen through the incidence of this duty. It is a large company with a capital of £200,000. In the last financial yeas it made a profit of 15,000, or 7 to 7½ per cent. If under the conditions of last year there had been a tax on petrol there would have been a loss of £20,000. It undoubtedly means that these public utility companies will have to hand the tax on to the public. They are not philanthropic concerns, but business concerns which have to look after the in-
    1624
    terests of their investors. I do not know if the House quite realises that a duty of 4d. will mean something like 80 per cent. to 100 per cent. increase in the taxation that these omnibuses pay. A big omnibus—one of the omnibuses to which I refer—will run some 40,000 miles in a year. These omnibuses are at present paying a licence duty of £80 or £90 a year. This duty, on that mileage, will mean an increase of cost to each omnibus of from £80 to £100. It will mean something like £80 in the country and £100 in the towns, an absolute increase of 100 per cent. on the taxation of these omnibuses.
    I wish to try and point out that these public vehicles stand on entirely different ground from privately owned cars or even of cars which are run for private profit. These cars perform public and essential services. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the advance of public motor traffic in the country districts has relieved the housing problem in many areas. Tens and hundreds of thousands of the poorest workers are taken to their employment daily by this means. It helps education. It takes children to school. Many contracts are made to take children at the cheapest possible rate. There are innumerable services which these omnibuses perform to the social advantage of the country, and probably the greatest service is that they induce people to stop in rural areas instead of drifting to the towns. That is an extraordinarily important thing. I think that the services which these public utility companies render justify them in claiming some consideration, and sympathetic consideration, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would remind the Financial Secretary that the loss might not be confined to these public utility companies, for if he cuts down the profit or does away with the profit which they make at the present moment he will lose his Income Tax and Super-tax. There, again, the industry to which I am referring stands on an entirely different basis from the private individual, in whose case it will make no difference to the Income Tax whatever the petrol tax may be.
    I would remind the Financial Secretary that formerly when there was a petrol tax there was a 50 per cent. reduction for these vehicles, because it was recognised what services they were ren-

    1625
    dering. I think it is against the public interest that some consideration should not be given to these services. I quite recognise and I anticipate that the reply that will be given will be that money will have to be found. I venture to suggest to the Financial Secretary that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is adamant on this point, probably there is another way of relieving these public utility companies which give such services by dealing with the present license duties on omnibuses. It would make no difference to the Budget. It would certainly reduce to some extent the large amount of money which comes to the Road Fund but it would make no difference to the Budget. I contend that some sympathetic consideration should be given to the staggering amount of this tax which has come upon this industry without a moment's warning.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: I listened with pleasure as I always do, to my hon. Friend who has just spoken and I recall the excellent speech he made quite recently when we were debating the rail and road transport question. He is wringing his hands about the terrible prospect facing the industry with which he is associated. I wonder really whether the industry is in as bad as position as he would have us believe from his speech to-day and from his speech the other day. Is it on the brink of bankruptcy Can it not endure the taxation which has been proposed by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Has he forgotten that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised 20 per cent. off the licence for the type of vehicle for which he was speaking provided it has pneumatic tyres?
    Sir J. GRANT: In a year's time.
    Mr. SAMUEL: A great scheme like this under consideration cannot be evolved and made perfect in a few days or a few weeks. If the hon. Gentleman will be patient with me for a minute or two let me read these figures. Is this tax going to ruin the industry with which he is connected? I find that the change in wholesale prices of motor spirit delivered in cans has varied very greatly even within the limit of this present Parliament. In February, 1924, it was 1s. 8d., in September 1s. 5d., in 1926 it was 1s. 5d.; and just before the 4d. was proposed it was
    1626
    11½d. Here you have an industry which has been able to support, I presume, profitably, the price of spirit at 1s. 8d. in 1924 and 1s. 9d. in 1923, and yet to-day you have 11½d. plus 4d.—1s. 3½d.; that is to say, petrol plus tax is cheaper to-day than in 1926 without 4d. tax.
    Sir J. GRANT: Can the hon. Gentleman also inform himself on the reduction of fares?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Well notwithstanding all these pluses and minuses in his argument and notwithstanding his fears for it, the industry with which my hon. Friend is connected still lives. I think we must go back to the basis of the scheme and realise this. It is my answer to most of the objections raised by the other side. We have laid ourselves out to embark upon a great policy not for the purpose of doing harm but for the purpose of doing good to the country. The best way for us to obtain the sympathy and support of the nation is to do good. The better we serve the nation the more support we shall get at the polls. It is no use avoiding the main issue and it is better that hon. Gentlemen should face the issue. We have a policy and we wish to help producers, and particularly the heavy industries, iron, coal, steel, engineering and shipbuilding.
    Mr. T. SHAW: Cotton.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Cotton too if we can by the Budget's proposal. But this House cannot teach the cotton industry how to arrange its internal affairs. If the cotton industry does not understand them, we cannot hope to be successful.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Hope): The hon. Member is raising an entirely new issue not strictly connected with this Duty or with the Finance Bill.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I apologise. I was drawn aside by a remark of the right hon. Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw). We have embarked upon the policy of assisting the producers and by assisting tie producer we are not merely assisting the employer. He cannot be prosperous unless his men have work. We think that by reducing the rates on the great industries we shall enable those industries to employ men and produce goods at a price which will compete in the markets of the world more favour-

    1627
    ably than they are able to do at the present time. When the producer arid his workpeople prosper the community prosper. When people earn wages they spend them with the shopkeeper. The shopkeeper will sell more goods and will be prosperous, The small man who has a two-seater car will be prosperous, whether he be a shopkeeper or a commercial traveller or even an investor, because he will share in the general benefits of better trade arising from the alleviation of rates upon productive industry and the increase of employment thus caused.
    If the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) had his way—I do not know that he seeks to do so specifically—the proposal which he makes would destroy our ability to give relief of rates. While I listened to his speech I calculated what his proposition would mean. It would mean that we should lose £13,500,000 of the revenue which we need to meet the calls upon the national exchequer for the relief of rates on productive industry and agriculture. Curiously enough—and it was very astonishing to me because no one has a greater regard for the intellectual ability of my right hon. Friend so far as finance is concerned—he did not propose to substitute 1d. for 4d. in the rebate. If his Amendment were carried into effect it would mean a subsidy of 3d. a gallon on heavy oils. That must be an oversight or if not he must not have understood clearly the proposal set forth by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My reply to him is that the object of the Budget is to help to create trade for the producer and his workpeople through the alleviation of rates. The prosperity that it will bring to trade not only to the factories will reach to the shopkeeper, the clerk, the investor and the private person. You cannot have more wealth made in the country through better trade without that prosperity percolating through the hands of the community in general in these Islands. The prosperity of the population arises from the prosperity of the production or exporting industries. The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) complained that the man with the small car could not afford the £10 extra
    1628
    or the £12 extra which he worked out as the cost of the new duty at 20 miles per gallon.
    Mr. RILEY: My point was not so much that he could not afford it but that it was an unfair impost.
    Mr. SAMUEL: There is an old saying in the East of England that you cannot pick up money unless you first put it down. If we increase the productive prosperity of our factories those who use cars for trade either as distributors or commercial travellers will find that their trade will increase, and what they have to put down in extra tax on petrol they will get back by having their share in the general increase of trade prosperity. I think that is the broad answer which I must give to the hon. Member for Dewsbury as to the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh. We need the money to carry out our policy of helping production. The way in which we think it can best be secured with the greatest benefit and the least injury to the general body of the population is in the form of taxation proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    The hon. Member for the Moseley Division of Birmingham (Mr. Hannon) put a question to me with regard to secondhand cars and asked whether I would consider a method of relief so that they might be sold. The trouble is not the tax or the method of taxing secondhand cars. The trouble is not confined to this country. The excessive number of secondhand cars is a complaint from which every country, America included, suffers. Alter the method of taxation how you may, you will riot solve the problem of the number of secondhand cars. I do not know the remedy. If the hon. Member for the Moseley Division will put forward a considered scheme by which he thinks the object which he has in view can be obtained, I will consider it. But I cannot pledge myself or commit myself in any way, because I am convinced that the alleviation of the problem does not lie in an alteration of the method of taxation but rather in a remedy for the fact that there are too many secondhand cars and too few buyers of them. I have tried to deal with the various speeches which have been delivered on this Amendment, and I would ask the House now to come to a conclusion and reject the Amend-

    1629
    ment proposed by the right hon. Member for Central Edinburgh.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: I rise because of the concluding remarks of the Financial Secretary. May I say that he is entirely wrong. If he consults Members of this House on either side and those who are actually engaged in the motor industry, they will tell him that the glut of secondhand cars and the inability to sell secondhand cars is a direct result of the method of taxing cars in this country. Not only will they tell him that, but it obviously stands to common sense—
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am not combating the view of the hon. Member for the Moseley Division, nor am I combating the view now enunciated by the hon. Member. I said I did not know. If a scheme can be put forward which is likely to meet the necessities of the case, we certainly will consider it. I have an open mind whether a successful alteration can be made or is possible. I do not know. I will not pledge myself or compromise myself; but if a concrete scheme can be put forward and it is agreed upon by those who bring it forward that it will work, I will spend some time in considering it.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: That was not what the hon. Member said. He said that the problem of second-hand cars was not confined to this country, that it was prevalent in every other country, including the United States of America. There may be a problem in other countries, but it is nothing like so prevalent as it is here. I am not sure how far I am in order in responding to the invitation of the hon. Member; but let me tell him that a concrete scheme for dealing with this matter was suggested by myself as long ago as the Finance Bill of 1925. My proposal was to alter the method of taxing motor vehicles in this country. The reason why I wish to support this Amendment is because I think this duty is greatly against the interests of the motor trade in this country and against the interests of industry which the Government profess to have at heart. Not only is this additional impost upon the motor industry bad, but the persistent refusal of the Government to respond to the wishes of the motor industry as to the way in which they should be taxed is the most potent cause of keeping back a growing industry. It is not only a
    1630
    question of second-hand cars. It stands to reason that if you: have a second-hand car which is worth £60, £70, £80 or £100, and the purchaser has to pay in addition a tax of £15, £20 or £25, it obviously makes an enormous difference to the number of people who buy these cars.
    The second thing is that under the present arrangements there is a vast difference in the number of new cars, because there are many people, particularly in the country districts, who would be prepared to buy a second ear if they were not compelled to pay a comparatively large tax upon that ear. It may be said that people ought not to have two cars. This is one of those things which is called a luxury article and it is said that whether you pay on petrol or on horse power, you are paying for a luxury. More than once I have contested that view. To talk about motor cars, as a whole, being luxury articles, seems to be the purest nonsense and betrays the state of mind which considers that the use of the motor ear ought to be confined to a particular type of persons. In the view which I take of this matter, and I think it is the view of the motor trade, the more the use of the motor car is extended, the wider the circle of motor users, the better for the trade and the better for the users themselves. One thing which the motor car trade in this country wants at the present time more than anything else is the power, the ability, the scope, the opportunity to build cars in much greater numbers.
    It is a commonplace that if one travels in British Dominions like Australia and India or in the countries of Latin America, or in the West Indies, one finds that in those countries the use of motors is increasing enormously. In that increase this country has no part at all. The country which is making headway is the United States of America and the difference is very largely because in the United States they have a rational system of taxation and here we have an irrational system. Only yesterday some people concerned in the motor trade told me that the method by which motor cars have been taxed in this country prohibits manufacturers from making the type of car which is suited to those countries. They are prevented from making an engine which is powerful enough for use in those countries.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not know whether the remarks of the hon. Member for Moseley (Mr. Hannon) were in order or not, and whether the reply of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was in order. I think it is in order to deal with the question of whether or not the motor car industry is to suffer greater taxation and to argue that additional taxation ought not to be imposed. If, however, the hon. Member is now going into a detailed argument as to methods, I suggest that, while that would be perfectly in order in Committee on the Finance Bill, it is really going beyond the scope of the Resolution at present before the House.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: I apologise if I have been going outside the bounds of order, and I shall endeavour to confine my remarks to the question of any increase in taxation. I know perfectly well that the argument is used, both inside and outside the industry, that this proposal only makes so many pounds a year of difference and that that is not going to deter people from using motor cars. I think it is. Here you have an industry which is growing, which is giving more employment and which, if it is to take its proper place and rank as one of the great staple industries of this country, must manufacture not only for the home market but for every market abroad. We have to give that industry every encouragement to increase its output, and thereby diminish its costs and make cheaper the article which it produces. The additional imposts which are put upon the user of the motor car, as such and as distinct from all other classes, is a direct hit at, and an injury to the motor industry.
    Mr. SAMUEL: Is the hon. Member aware that we are taking rates off the motor car manufacturers of this country?
    Mr. CRAWFURD: We have yet to know, and we have yet to examine the conditions under which that is being done. I am anxious to see the proposals which the Government are going to make and the difference they will make to certain factories in relation to other taxation. The Financial Secretary may know, but I do not think he has given us any enlightenment so far. It is a purely nebulous thing, up to now.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. SAMUEL: The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the figures. There is the definite statement that a certain amount of rates will be taken off the factories. That will help to make the manufacture of motor cars cheaper and will do the very thing which the hon. Member says the Government are not doing.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: While the Financial Secretary says that, he has not made any sort of comparison as to the saving in the cost of production which a remission of rates is going to produce.
    Mr. SAMUEL: The amount of the rates taken off will be the amount of the remission.
    Mr. CRAWFURD: I know that, but perhaps the Financial Secretary will allow me to finish my sentence. I was saying that he has not instituted any comparison between the benefits to be derived by the industry by this proposal, and the benefit which would be derived by the industry if this taxation were not indulged in, and my objection is against this proposal because, as I contend, it is a blow aimed at the motor industry. For that reason I support the Amendment.
    Colonel BURTON: When one thinks of the final blow which the hon. Member would have administered to the motor car trade if he had had the opportunity, one really marvels at the speech such as we have just heard. I had not an opporturity of speaking before the Financial Secretary replied otherwise I should have mentioned to him a matter which has excited a great deal of sympathy in the House. That is the manner in which this duty may affect the agricultural industry. My hon. Friend who mentioned the case of the public utility companies was told that his grievance could be passed on to the customers of those bodies. So far, however, the agricultural industry has never yet been able to do so. During the past week-end I took the opportunity of visiting certain rural areas, especially in the constituency which I have the honour to represent, and I found that in very many places the duty which the farmers would have to pay in respect of this addition to their petrol bill, would be an increase, even in relation to the amount of the rates of which they may eventually be relieved. I do not propose to detain the House with a number of

    1633
    figures, but I have in mind the case of a farmer whose petrol bill is in a year. To that we are going to add 33⅓ per cent. which means that he is going to pay a further £25 on his petrol; and if he gets a remission of the remainder of his rates, he will still be £13 out of pocket.
    We as an industry cannot afford to pay any further taxation. We are told that our rates are being remitted, and that everything is being done to put us on a more satisfactory basis, and yet a suggestion is put forward that we are to pay 20 per cent. more on our propelling power. The railways have driven us on to the road, and they bring Bills to this House, supported, I am sorry to say, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to endeavour to drive us back again on to the railways. The Petrol Duty will force us back there, whether we want to go or not. The return of bankruptcies outside London, for the week ending 22nd April, shows that no less than 30 per cent. were in the farming industry. On the 28th of this month it had risen to the appalling percentage of 43. That is a position which cannot exist much longer. We are on the bring of absolute ruin, and the Government are asking us to submit to a Petrol Duty which will increase the cost of marketing our produce, and which will drive us either into bankruptcy or into giving up while we still have something left. I really cannot, on behalf of my constituency, support this duty.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: We have been invited as Members of the House to make our contributions to the subject under discussion, and I should like to direct the attention of the Financial Secretary to the position of those counties in which there are no railways—agricultural counties where railways do not exist, and where the whole of the traffic is carried by motor transport. The counties which I have the honour to represent are in that position. In addition to that, the great majority of the farmers are crofters, smallholders who pay no rates on their agricultural land, and only a very small ate upon their houses. In these circumstances, the Government propose to put a tax on the petrol which drives the motor ear, which carries the agricultural produce, and which has to distribute goods throughout the counties. On the other hand, the smallholder, as far as I can see, is to get
    1634
    no relief whatever. The position, I admit, is a somewhat peculiar one. In other parts of the country, there are railways, and there is to be relief in the rating of the railways, which is to be passed on by a reduction in railway freights. We are not going to get any reduction of that sort; we are only going to pay an extra tax. I would point out that these are the very smallest and poorest farmers in the whole community; they have the greatest trouble in the world to make both ends meet, and yet they will have an extra tax put upon them without any hope of getting anything in return, even supposing that the great structure which the Chancellor is planning ever conies to completion.
    It is proposed that there should be a reduction in the rating of docks and harbours, so that there should, be some relief given to shipping. Supposing the scheme goes through to that extent, is it intended that the freights charged by the shipping lines, which run to the Islands, shall be reduced, so that the goods which are shipped to and from the Islands can go out and come in on a lower rate than they do at present? Even supposing they do, I can only imagine that the reduction would be a very small one. So the fact remains that we are to be heavily taxed on what is an essential service in the Islands. I have endeavoured to get figures to place before the House, but I regret that the time has not been long enough for me to get figures on which I could absolutely rely; but, so far as the figures which have been supplied to me go, they show that this tax will run into thousands of pounds, for which no relief whatever is to be seen in the offing. I ask the Financial Secretary to represent this matter to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am sure that it is not the intention of the Chancellor, and I am more than sure that it is not the intention of the House, that any part of the United Kingdom should be treated unfairly. If a tax of this sort is imposed without any adjustment or variation between the different counties of the country, there is no doubt that counties such as those to which I have alluded will suffer very severely.
    Colonel WOODCOCK: The Chancellor of the Exchequer asked Members of the House to make suggestions in connection with the Petrol Duty, and I think there

    1635
    is one class which has been overlooked, probably through forgetfulness, to which no rebate has been given. I refer to the light aeroplane clubs, and especially on behalf of one of the latest formed, namely, the Bristol and Wessex Aeroplane Club. These clubs are doing excellent service in the training of pilots, and in assisting the Air Ministry in every way, and a grant was made in the Estimates to assist them. If there is no rebate, these clubs will suffer very considerably. Every hour which an aeroplane belonging to these clubs flies for instructional purpose, it uses six gallons of petrol; each machine reckons to fly 1,000 hours a year, so that this duty works out at £100 a machine per year. These light aeroplane clubs are doing a national service, and are having a struggle to exist. The assistance which they get from the Air Ministry will be
    taken away at one blow by this Petrol Duty. The Chancellor is making a rebate to fishing boats and agricultural tractors because they do not use the roads. Light aeroplanes do not use the roads, but they are to be taxed even more severely in proportion than the fishing boats or the agricultural tractors, because the latter use very little petrol compared with an aeroplane. I hope that the Chancellor will give every consideration to the question of a rebate to these clubs. If he will remit the duty in their case, as he is doing for fishing boats and agricultural tractors, he will do a great service to the country, and also to the clubs in their early stages.
    Question put, "That the word 'four-pence' stand part of the Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 128.

    Division No. 95.]

    AYES.

    [9.16 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Harland, A.

    Albery, Irving James

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

    Atkinson, C.

    Dixey, A. C.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Drewe, C.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Balniel, Lord

    Duckworth, John

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Banks, Reginald Mitchen

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Bennett, A. J.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Berry, Sir George

    England, Colonel A.

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Bethel, A.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M (Hackney, N.)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Forrest, W.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Foster, Sir Harry s.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Gates, Percy

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Buchan, John

    Gault Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    King. Commodore Henry Douglas

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Burman, J. B.

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Goff, Sir Park

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Grace, John

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Cassels, J. D.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Loder, J. de V.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Long, Major Eric

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Looker, Herbert William

    Christie, J. A.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Lougher, Lewis

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Lucas-Tooth. Sir Hugh Vere

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hall, Capt. W. D. A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Cope, Major William

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Cooper, J. B.

    Hanbury, C.

    MacIntyre, Ian

    McLean, Major A.

    Ramsden, E.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Sutter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Remer, J. R.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stratford)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Meller, R. J.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Rye, F. G.

    Waddington, R.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Sandon, Lord

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Savery, S. S.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

    Wells, S. R.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belf'st.)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Oakley, T.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Penny, Frederick George

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Wormersely, W. J.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Philipson, Mabel

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Pilcher, G.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Preston, William

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Wallace.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Radford, E. A.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hayday, Arthur

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Amnion, Charles George

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Sexton, James

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Baker, Walter

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hollins, A.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Barnes, A.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Shinwell, E.

    Barr, J.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Batey, Joseph

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smillie, Robert

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Briant, Frank

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Broad, F. A.

    Kennedy, T.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Bromfield, William

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Snell, Harry

    Bromley, J.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Lansbury, George

    Stamford, T. W.

    Cape, Thomas

    Lawson, John James

    Stephen, Campbell

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Clute, W. S.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lowth, T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Connolly, M.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Aberavon)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Cove, W. G.

    Mackinder, W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Dalton, Hugh

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    March, S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Dennison, R.

    Maxton, James

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Dunnico, H.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Edge, sir William

    Montague, Frederick

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Morris, R. H.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Fenby, T. D.

    Murnin, H.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Gardner, J. P.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Westwood, J.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Owen, Major G.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Gosling, Harry

    Palin, John Henry

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Greenall, T.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, H. J. (Jarrow)

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Potts, John S.

    Windsor, Walter

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Riley, Ben

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hardie, George D.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The five following Amendments on the Order Paper should come in as provisoes later on: In line 8, at the end, to insert the words:

    (1) "Except upon such petroleum spirit as may be used as the propelling power of vehicles employed in carrying agricultural produce."—[Colonel Burton.]

    (2) "Except kerosene which is used for incubators on poultry farms."—[Mr. Albery.]

    (3) "Except upon such liquid hydrocarbons as may be used for the extraction of oils in the manufacture of cattle-feeding stuffs."—[Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.]

    (4) "except upon such turpentine and white spirit as is used in the manufacture of paints and varnishes."—[Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy.]

    (5) "Except upon such oils as may be used for agricultural purposes, including the propelling power of vehicles employed in carrying agricultural produce and farm requirements."—[Mr. Lamb.]

    Major DAVIES: I beg to move, in line 18, after the word "be," to insert the words:
    "on all petroleum oils used for the purpose of treating leather in connection with the manufacture of gloves or."
    While fully sharing the congratulations which have been showered on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I bear in mind in moving this Amendment that when he opened the Budget the right hon. Gentleman maintained that the scheme had to be regarded as a whole, though the best-advised and most far-seeing Chancellor of the Exchequer may be liable to oversight. It seems to me that in outlining the scheme for the Petrol Duty he has overlooked a certain industry which will be very seriously affected if it does not get some exemption from the provisions of this tax on oil, and that is the glove industry. I have no hesitation in commending this Amendment to the consideration of the House for the reason that the industry is one of those which, in the last year or two, have put in an application to be included amongst those industries which get the benefit of Safeguarding. The case they put up was a sufficiently strong one for them to get favourable consideration from the Board of Trade and from the Committee which investigated the scheme. It has been said that the whole idea was that that industry should receive assistance mainly because of the employment it was able to offer. The success of that is evident from the conditions of the industry at this
    1640
    moment as compared with what it was before that assistance was offered. But so close on the heels of that assistance comes a tax or a proposed tax which will very largely nullify the advantages they have so recently received in connection with Safeguarding.
    I have to confess that when I first read the provisions of the Budget it did not occur to me, nor was I aware, that such a large amount of petrol was used in the process of glove-making. Hon. Members may perhaps be interested to know that there is a certain process in connection with the manufacture of gloves which is known technically as de-greasing. Like most technical terms it is an uncommonly unpleasant term and reminds one of some of the processes which we and our clothes had to go through during the War after we had been for a long period in the trenches. If in order to produce efficient soldiers the process of de-lousing was necessary, it is equally important in order to produce efficient gloves that the process of de-greasing should be gone through, and I am informed reliably that there is no alternative to the method at present employed, which is to eliminate the grease with which leather is filled by means of the application of petrol in order that the material for the production of gloves may be rendered fit for that service.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer is himself sufficient of a soldier to know that he could not permit anybody improperly dressed on parade. The same thing applies to leather being improperly dressed for use in making gloves, and it is necessary to utilise petrol in order to have your leather properly dressed. I am told that there is no satisfactory substitute for the use of petrol in this process. The scientists in connection with the glove industry have tried to get many different chemical alternatives to the use of petrol, without success. Therefore, if this tax is applied to the petrol used in the glove industry, it will very seriously increase the cost of the raw material, and therefore of the finished article. I happen to have taken a few figures at random. I do not wish to bore the House with figures which hon. Members cannot carry in their head, but one firm, for example, uses from 300 to 500 gallons a week, another firm inform me that they used last year 52,000 gallons, and another 65,000 gallons in their pro-

    1641
    cesses. That being so, a duty in the first place of about £350 a year, in the second of £870, and in the third of no less than £1,100, will be placed on them as a duty on the petrol which is an essential for the production of these gloves. It seems to me that, in considering this as a broad proposition, the Chancellor of the Exchequer naturally had not time to consider where the shoe might pinch in a smaller direction, and I feel sure if this question had been brought to his attention before he opened his Budget he would certainly have made an exemption in this particular case.
    Therefore, I do appeal to the Chancellor, and, in his absence, to the Financial Secretary, that he should take into consideration, first, that this industry—which is a substantial industry and one that on account of the application of the Safeguarding Clauses has been not only put upon its legs again, but is expanding once more and giving additional employment and taking into its service apprentices, a process which had been lost sight of in the depressed condition since the War—that this industry, which has had the favourable consideration of this House, should not have that favourable consideration now withdrawn at one fell swoop on account of it coming into the very wide net which the Chancellor has thrown over all petrol-users throughout the length and breadth of the country. Therefore, with confidence I would urge the Financial Secretary that he should give this industry as favourable consideration, and provide an exemption from this duty on petrol which must inevitably be used in order to produce that magnificent article which we have to-day—the English-made glove.
    Mr. GREENE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Having had considerable knowledge of the glove industry, I can state with confidence that what my hon. and gallant Friend has put forward to-night is worthy of the consideration of the House.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: I hope that my two hon. Friends will not press this Amendment. Nothing would please me better than to give way to everybody if I could please them and so send them away happy, but in this case it is of the utmost importance, in order to carry out the policy laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that we should
    1642
    maintain the integrity of the duty. It would be fatal if once we allowed gaps to be made in it. In dealing with the Amendment, I would say that, after all, I do not think this industry will suffer at all. The hydrocarbon oils used in the process are recovered in a very great degree by the manufacturers and with relatively very small loss. I do not think the additional cost to the producer as a result of the duty will be worth talking about. Moreover I must ask hon. Members to consider that gloves are produced in factories, and these factories will receive very much larger advantages in the benefits from rating than they will ever pay under this duty. I would, therefore, ask my hon. Friends to withdraw the Amendment, which I could not recommend to the House.
    Mr. KELLY: I was rather surprised at the reply made by the Financial Secretary. He is evidently as badly advised with regard to the glove trade as his chief has been with regard to other items of the Budget. He told us that gloves are largely manufactured in factories. I think he has forgotten the great number of people employed in the gloving trade who do their work in small places in the country, and if the only justification he can give for refusing this Amendment is the promise of some relief that may come in 18 months' time it is a poor answer to the gloving industry. I support this Amendment, and I hope the hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies), whom I have known for many years, will press it to a division—at least as one who fought with me in that district, of which I think so much even yet, and as one having a great interest in the gloving trade. This is a substantial industry, and I hope the hon. and gallant Member will be able to get the support of enough of the hon. Members sitting around him to bring the same pressure to bear as was brought against the Chancellor last night with regard to another item in the Budget.
    Mr. HARRIS: I am not one of those who have felt very great sympathy with the safeguarding system. I have taken the line that if it is given a fair chance British industry is able to stand on its own feet and does not want that artificial support. As long as it is not

    1643
    handicapped by unfair taxes, it can compete with industry in any other part of the world. Here, however, the Government are deliberately going out of their way to handicap an industry which still depends to a great extent on its export trade. It is true that it is secured from foreign competition by the safeguarding machinery, as long as we have a Conservative Government in office—[HON. MEMBERS: "We will remember that"]—and is allowed to exploit the home market, by getting high prices for its goods, but if an industry is going to have a healthy existence, it must look for world markets. Everybody knows that at the present time it is not the home trade which is bad hut the export trade, but because there are no big battalions behind the hon. and gallant Member for Yeovil (Major Davies) the Government are going to put an unfair tax on this industry, increasing the costs of production. A novel point was made by the Financial Secretary. When there is anything to be given away the Chancellor of the Exchequer is present, but the Financial Secretary is a sort of whipping boy; if there is anything unpleasant to be done, it is left to him to do it. He took refuge in the argument that although this duty would be a handicap, glove-makers were going to get rating relief as a set off. As the hon. Member knows, many of these gloves are made in cottages. It is, especially in parts of Somersetshire and Gloucestershire, largely a cottage trade. The skins are cut in the factory, but they then go out to the cottages, where the bulk of the work is done. Are we to understand that these cottages are to come within the definition of productive industries and to receive relief in respect of three-quarters of their rates? If not, then the Government, while prepared to give concessions to big business, are going to penalise small industry.
    Sir H. CROFT: Does the hon. Member suggest that petrol has to be provided by the cottagers?
    Mr. HARRIS: No, but the petrol used enters into the costs of production. The Financial Secretary, speaking with expert guidance, admitted that this duty would add to the costs of production, but said that as a set-off manufacturers would get relief from the burden of rates
    1644
    on their factories. I am pointing out that the gloves are largely made in cottages. I have been down there and seen it. If the hon. and gallant Member goes down to the Sherborne district he will see gloves being given out to the cottages, where the bulk of the work is done.
    Sir H. CROFT: Does my hon. Friend suggest that a different price is going to be paid to these people for making these gloves?
    Mr. HARRIS: Not at all.
    Sir H. CROFT: Then what has that got to do with the case?
    Mr. HARRIS: It has a lot to do with the case, because owing to the increased cost of the skins to the factories, where the petrol is used, there will be less employment for the cottagers. If it was a good argument to say that the relief of three-quarters of the rates on the factories will be a set-off against this duty, I think I am right in asking that the relief should also go to the cottages. All I am contending is that if it is a good thing give a concession in one direction, when pressure can be brought to bear, there ought to be a concession when a good case has been made out for this industry. It is quite possible to secure an undertaking that the petrol will be used purely for commercial purposes. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise some regulation under which there can be a rebate where the petrol is used purely for industrial purposes in the manufacture of gloves.
    Mr. SKELTON: Is it not the case that the process in the manufacture of the leather in which petrol is used is invariably done in factories, even though the gloves are made in the cottages?
    Mr. HARRIS: I think that process is usually done in the open air. As far as I know that is so. I have seen the skins being tanned and being prepared in the open air, and I very much doubt whether the rating authorities will hold that these places where the skins go through this process in the open air will come within the definition of a factory. [Interruption.] I think I am right in saying that these skins largely go through that process of manufacture in the open air. One sees these skins hanging out in the yards all round Yeovil. [Interruption.] At

    1645
    any rate, I am desirous of assisting the hon. and gallant Member to get his concession, and if he presses this Amendment to a Division he can rely upon my support.
    Major DAVIES: In view of the lamentable ignorance of the glove trade which has been displayed by the new
    Daniel come to judgment, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    HON. MEMBERS: No!
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: Ayes, 129; Noes, 262.

    Division No. 96.]

    AYES.

    [9.45 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hardie, George D.

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Harris, Percy A.

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Amnion, Charles George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Baker, Walter

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Sexton, James

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillary)

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Barnes, A.

    Hollins, A.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Barr, J.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Batey, Joseph

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Shinwell, E.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Briant, Frank

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smillie, Robert

    Broad, F. A.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Bromfield, William

    Kelly, W. T.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Bromley, J.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Snell, Harry

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kirkwood, D.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Cape, Thomas

    Lansbury, George

    Stamford, T. W.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawson, John James

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lowth, T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Connolly, M.

    Lunn, William

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Cove, W. G.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Mackinder, W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham Plaistow)

    Dalton, Hugh

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Dennison, R.

    March, S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Dunnico, H.

    Maxton, James

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Edge, Sir William

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Montague, Frederick

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Morris, R. H.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Fenby, T. D.

    Murnin, H.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Gardner, J. P.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Westwood, J.

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Owen, Major G.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Gillett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gosling, Harry

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenall, T.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Potts, John S.

    Windsor, Walter

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Riley, Ben

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Ritson, J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Whiteley.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bethel, A.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Albery, Irving James

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Christie, J. A.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Apsley, Lord

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Atkinson, C.

    Buchan, John

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Balniel, Lord

    Burman, J. B

    Cope, Major William

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Couper, J. B.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Campbell, E. T.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Roberts, sir Samuel (Hereford)

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Illffe, Sir Edward M.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lane, Stretford)

    Davidson, Major. General Sir J. H.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Dixey, A. C.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Duckworth, John

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Rye, F. G.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Ellis, R. G.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    England, Colonel A.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Lamb, J. Q

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Everard, w. Lindsay

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sandon, Lord

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Savery, S. S.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Loder, J. de V.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Long, Major Eric

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Looker, Herbert William

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Forrest, W.

    Lougher, Lewis

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.)

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Skelton, A. N.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Smithers, Waldron

    Gates, Percy

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    McLean, Major A.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'oland)

    Grace, John

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Greaves-Lord, sir Walter

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Meller, R. J.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Waddington, R.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Hanbury, C.

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Harland, A.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Harvey, Major s. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Oakley, T.

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Wells, S. R

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur p.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Pilcher, G.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Hilton, Cecil

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Womersley, W. J.

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Preston, William

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Radford, E. A.

    Wragg, Herbert

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Ramsden, E.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Remer, J. R

    Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Mr. LUMLEY: I beg to move, in line 18, after the word "be," to insert the words "on all hydrocarbon oils used in extracting cattle feeding stuffs and."
    I will preface what I have to say by stating that I yield to no one in my admiration of the great effort which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is making to help productive industry, and it is with great reluctance that on this question I
    1648
    find myself in opposition to his proposal. I would like to say that I am not an expert on the particular industry with which this Amendment deals. My hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir F. Sanderson), who is acquainted with this particular industry, will deal with some of the technical points connected with this subject. I will explain very briefly how this seed-crushing industry is affected by the Petrol Duty. I am in-

    1649
    formed that there are two main methods of producing cattle feeding stuffs. On the one hand there is what is known as the crushing process, by which the seed—it may be cotton seed, rape seed or soya beans—is crushed and the oil extracted by crushing. That method is not affected by the Petrol Duty.
    The other method employed in this industry is what is known as the extraction process, and that is the method employed by the largest and most up-to-date firms. I do not think it is employed by more than six of the largest firms in the country to-day. This extraction method uses petrol for extracting the vegetable oil which is in the seed. The vegetable oil so extracted is then used for a number of purposes—for the making of soap, margarine, linseed oil and other things. The seed which is freed by using petrol as a solvent is then made into what can be described as cattle feeding stuff. It is this second process in this industry which is affected by the Petrol Duty. This is a very large industry in the constituency of Hull which I happen to represent. To extract one ton of cattle feeding stuff I am informed that, generally speaking, 150 gallons of petrol will be used. A large part of that petrol is recovered, but I am also informed that a certain portion of the petrol is not recoverable, and that portion will naturally form part of the cost of production of one ton of cattle feeding stuffs.
    I am further informed that, on an average, the amount of petrol that is not recovered in the manufacture of one ton of feeding stuffs, is five gallons. Therefore, the extra cost of production of one ton of cattle-feeding stuffs will, with a Petrol Duty of 4d. a gallon, be 20d. This industry has had to meet very severe competition in the last few years. I shall not weary the House with the figures of unemployment in the industry; but certainly in the last four years the industry has gone through a series of great depression, and it has now to meet severe competition from Germany, Holland, Belgium and other countries. The exports of the industry are delivered in the main to the Scandinavian countries, and, of course, are subject to the competition of Germany and other countries. I understand that when the manufacturers in this country can see a profit of two shillings or even one shil-
    1650
    ling on a ton of manufactured cattle-feeding stuffs, they close on it at once. The House will see, therefore, that an increase of 20d. in the cost of production means the loss in many cases of the whole profit, and is bound to end in the raising of the price of the products sold to the English farmer.
    10.0 p.m.
    The House will not need reminding that if an industry of this kind suffers in its export trade, it is unable to export as much as it exported before, the cost of production of what it sells in this country is bound to rise. If the industry is hit in its export trade, the cost of feeding stuff to farmers in this country is bound to rise. A question may be put to me in this way, "If the price of petrol is such a factor in the cost of production of one ton of feeding stuff, can you say that the price went down during the last two years when petrol has fallen by about a shilling a gallon?" I cannot prove that, but, on the other hand, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot prove that that is not the case, and I will tell him why. I am prepared to assert that for every sixpence by which the cost of petrol has come down the cost of cattle-feeding stuffs has gone down half-a-crown a ton. But that does not mean that the price to the farmer or the export price has necessarily gone down, because the cost of petrol is not the only or by any means the largest factor in the cost of production. The largest factor in the cost of production in an industry of this kind must be the price at which it can buy its raw material, the seed, on the open market, and that price varies very considerably.
    In competing with foreign countries the cost of production, as represented by the cost of the raw material bought on the open market, is very much the same; very much the same conditions operate in that case. But if the industry in this country alone is to be burdened with a permanent increase in the price of one, though perhaps a small part of the materials it uses in its processes, then the industry is going to be handicapped in its export trade by just that amount, and that handicap will not be upon the industries of foreign countries which are competitors. I feel sure that my right hon. Friend will say that his Budget is to be taken as a whole and that he can

    1651
    allow no inroad on the Petrol Duty. With great respect I would like to put one point to him. The organised industry has not been able as yet to collect for him the whole figures with regard to this duty. I had hoped that the Debate on this subject would not have had to be raised at this stage, that we should have collected all the available figures in a few days' time, and that the subject could be raised on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. The position at the moment is that neither the right hon. Gentleman nor I have the correct figures.
    I am informed that, at a rough calculation, the cost to the Exchequer if a rebate were given would be in the neighbourhood of £30,000. That, surely, is not a very great amount, and I would put it to him that, as the whole object of the Budget is to help productive industry, here is a point where his proposal may have an opposite effect. It may hamper the export trade of ails industry and raise the price to agricultural buyers in this country. There may be some difference of opinion between the points which I have raised, and perhaps the points which have been raised by the experts who have advised him. If there is such a difference, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, as there cannot have been very long discussion about this complicated industry, his experts and those on behalf of the industry should get together and see if there is anything in what I say, or if I merely have been badly prompted. If what I say is not true, and if it will make no difference to the industry, well and good; hut, if there is substance in what I say, surely it would be of advantage to the industry, and, therefore, to the country and to this Budget that the point should be listened to. Will the right hon. Gentleman not take longer time to consider this difficult and complicated question and consult still further the experts in the industry and see whether it is not possible to make a concession?
    One further point. I think I am right in saying that, when the old Petrol Duty was in operation during the War, this particular industry was allowed a rebate which there was no difficulty in collecting. I believe what happened was that the directors of the firms concerned were put under bond for a considerable amount, and they signed the requisition to the
    1652
    suppliers of petrol guaranteeing that the petrol with which they were supplied was only to be used for this extraction process. They were then supplied with petrol free of the cost of the duty, and the suppliers recouped themselves from the Treasury. That worked, I believe, to the satisfaction both of the Treasury and of the industry. If it is only a small amount of £30,000, I feel that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to make some arrangement on this occasion.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Lumley) on the very conciliatory and very lucid speech, if I may be allowed to say so, that he has made. I hope the speech to which we have listened and the few additional facts that I shall give, will complete the process of showing the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is really a very good case indeed for making this comparatively small concession to an industry which is suffering very severe competition in the world's markets. At Question time the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that he would view his vast project as a whole, and that our constituents would presently get back relief to their rates. Many things may happen during the next 18 months. We are promised two birds in the bush, but I would point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that during the 18 months he is to get his little singing bird in his hand, which I reckon to have cost between £16,000 and £20,000. I, also, in the short week that has elapsed since the right hon. Gentleman's great scheme burst upon an astonished world, have been endeavouring to get all the facts of this great industry, and, as the time was short, I may be a little wrong in detail, but the sum concerned is only £16,000 to £20,000. He will have this little singing bird all the time in his hand, and we are promised a whole lot of birds in the bush in relief of rates.
    May I change the metaphor slightly? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has heard of feeding a dog on his own tail? Has he heard of the very mean man who, when he was short of provisions, cut off the dog's tail, took the tail and ate it and threw the bone to the dog? That,

    1653
    I think, is rather the simile that I would adopt in explaining the policy of the right hon. Gentleman to this industry. These are the details of the industry as far as I have been able to gather them. Altogether about 20,000 gallons a week are used throughout the country in the manufacture of cattle meal. One great firm, the British Oil Mills, use up 10,000 gallons a week, while the Premier Oil Extracting Company use about 5,000 gallons. Both these firms are in Hull. I only have the figures for the production of meal for the largest company of its kind in the world, namely the British Oil and Cake Mills. They make 2,000 tons of meal per week. Therefore, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, about five gallons of petrol are used up, or expended, or lost, in the production of every ton of meal. I had, these figures only last Saturday from one of the leading directors of this company, who is the leading man in the whole industry in the country. That means that the extra expenditure in making a ton of cattle feeding meal will be between 1s. 3d. and 1s. 9d., and the average price for which the meal is sold is about £10 10s. a ton.
    Therefore, this represents an additional oncost of 1s. 8d. to 1s. 9d. on the selling price of £10 10s. for a ton of meal. Let it be observed that the prices of the materials used in making this meal are world prices. They are bought in competition. The cotton-seed, linseed, nuts, soya beans, etc., are bought, as against Danish, German and other firms, in competition in the world markets, and therefore, we may take it that our buyers are efficient and buy their raw materials at world prices. But our competitors also buy petrol at the world price, and the world price of petrol is very stable now. They, therefore, start with an immediate advantage, in the cost of their raw materials, of about 1s. 8d. to 1s. 9d. per ton, and that, in these days of keen competition and cut prices, will again and again give our competitors an advantage. This is not a case in which, as the petrol companies have done, the tax can be passed on to the consumer.
    I quite appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman wants to help production, and I admire his intentions—his good intentions—very much indeed. I hope they will lead him to Heaven. But I do suggest to him that the case of this industry has been overlooked. It was
    1654
    necessary, in making the preparations to put on this tax—and I am not attacking the main petrol tax at all—to observe secrecy, and inquiries could not be made in too many quarters. I was not aware until a week ago of the use of this spirit in this industry, nor do I think my hon. Friend was, but our constituencies are intimately concerned. The Premier Oil Extracting Mills are in my hon. Friend's constituency, and the British Oil and Cake Mills are in mine, and these are the two biggest concerns in the country. I can quite understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or even his Treasury advisers, may not have been seized of these facts which have been given to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hull and myself.
    Dr. WATTS: May I ask what these firms did when petrol was 2s. a gallon?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I dealt with that. The point is that the price of petrol is a world price, and their competitors in Germany and Denmark have to pay the same price as they do, but we are putting an actual addition on to the price that will have to be paid by the Hull manufacturers. I thought I had made that clear; I hope I have done so now. I must say that I have a sneaking sympathy with the main object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in putting on this tax. It is putting back, or attempting to put back, the hands of the economic clock, and I always admire romanticism—I always admire a romantic policy. [Interruption.] I do not agree that it is atavism, but I think that to put a tax on a very progressive industry in order to help one that is falling into the background is attractive. To use an Americanism, which the Chancellor and myself have no excuse for misunderstanding, the runabout has beaten the bassinette, and it is necessary to help the bassinette. The arguments the right hon. Gentleman uses are that this pleasure industry of motoring can bear a tax, but at the same time he is putting a tax on the industry of producing cattle meal and using the oil for making margarine and edible fats. He talks of the great advantages of the transport companies on the roads without the rates the railway companies have to pay.
    That is all very sound for a Petrol Duty on road users but it is not a sound argument for a Petrol Duty on manufac-

    1655
    turers who cannot use anything else but these hydro-carbon oils in their business. If you tax this process, eventually the manufacturer will have to pu4 up the price of his oils. If it is right to do that, it is also right to tax additionally in some way or other every industry in the country. We really are not justified in picking out one or two industries for a special tax on their raw material. The House may think the Chancellor is justified in taxing petrol used as power for driving vehicles, he may think it is a good thing to help the coal industry indirectly, but he is not justified, and he has no intention, I am sure, of taxing the raw material of a very important industry, of great importance incidentally to agriculture, and I hope he will be able to give us this comparatively small concession, which has been asked for in the first place by a stalwart Conservative supporter of his. If he does make the concession, I hope no one will accuse him of over-tenderness, and I certainly will thank him very much indeed. I am sure my hon. Friends on this side will recognise that, if he gives way now, it is to fair debate and reason on the Floor of the House and not to powerful pressure in the Upper Chamber such as, I understand, led to the loss of a much greater revenue in the hours of yesterday afternoon. For these reasons, with some confidence, knowing the right hon. Gentleman's willingness to listen to reason, I second the Amendment.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We have listened to two very interesting speeches, and I am bound to say I think the City of Hull is to be congratulated on its representatives. I am hopeful that neither of the hon. Members, both of whom, no doubt, are being reported on by their constituents for their excellent rival performances, will be unduly disappointed if I am unable to make any other answer to the Amendment they have proposed than has been made to other proposals of a similar character. If you start to give these exemptions, you will end by attempting to confine the burden of the Petrol Duty exclusively to the road user. You cannot possibly deal with cattle feeding stuffs without also dealing with dyeing and cleaning, with the manufacture of paint, with the making of gloves and all these
    1656
    interesting and complicated trades of which we have heard. If you did that you would, undoubtedly, have vitiated the tax. [Interruption.] Not everything that is vitiated is vicious. You will have undoubtedly destroyed the tax, and if you have destroyed the tax you have destroyed the policy. After all, calculations were made to show how much the duty would yield. Apparently, the petrol is used over and over again, and we have only to deal with the wastage on each operation. Petrol has fallen in recent history by a shilling, but such, violent movements of the price of petrol have found no reflection in the price of these things as purveyed to the public. The advantage has been added to the strength of these powerful companies. These reserves are there, and now that there is a rainy day, it will be available to meet the extra charges.
    For my part, I am bound to say that I do not think it is a great hardship that this tax should be proposed, but even so that is not the end of the story. For if this industry should survive the vicissitudes of a 4d. increase in the price of petrol, as it has already survived without the public realising much about it the convenience of nearly a shilling fall, if it should so survive until after the April rate payment of 1929, it will gain by the reduction of three-quarters of its rates on what are no doubt expensive and highly rated properties, which will give it competitive power far exceeding any drag which the incidence of this tax will impose.
    Sir FRANK SANDERSON: Having some experience of the industry which is at the present time being discussed, I feel that it is my duty to rise in order to give my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer the facts of the case. Oilseeds are treated by two entirely different processes—one by treating the seed by hydraulic pressure, which is the ordinary process, and this process is not in any way affected by the Petrol Duty. The other is by a process whereby the oilseed to be treated is ground into a fine meal, and placed into a steam-heated jacketed pan, when petrol, that is, solvent, is passed through the meal, and by this means the oil is extracted. The total amount of petrol used and lost

    1657
    beyond recovery in the course of manufacture is three to six gallons to one ton of seed according to the class of seed treated, and the additional cost of manufacture with the duty will be 2s. 6d. per ton. My right hon. Friend said that the principal reasons for objecting to this duty was because he felt that there would be some form of leakage and possible evasion. I want to make it quite clear to him that there can be no leakage in connection with the oilseed extraction industry, because the petrol is delivered to the manufacturer in bulk and is placed into a large receptacle, where it is physicaly impossible to get at the petrol except after it has passed through the process of manufacture.
    A point was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) in regard to the cost of cattle-feeding stuffs. When the petrol has passed though the seeds the ingredients which are left, are oil and meal. The value of that feeding material entirely depends upon the class of seed which has been used in the process of manufacture. Rape seed, soya beans and cotton seeds, castor seeds and a variety of other oil seeds are used. In the ease of rape seed and castor seed the meal from which is used as a fertiliser, the cost per ton is very frequently as low as £3, so that an extra 2s. 6d. per ton in the cost of manufacture is very important. The duty not only affects feeding stuffs but
    it also affects fertilisers, because these materials are used for fertilising purposes.
    The total cost to the extractors in Hull and Liverpool is approximately £35,000 per year. This industry has passed through a period of great difficulty and distress, and instead of profits being made there have, in fact, been losses during the past few years. A question has been raised that a matter of 2s. 6d. extra cost on £8 per ton is very small, but I wish to assure my right hon. Friend that the seed crushers are very pleased when they can see a clear 2s. 6d. a ton profit. That is the basis upon which they work. It is true to say that each year thousands of tons of seed are extracted and crushed in this country at a profit of considerably less than 2s. a ton. When the tax was placed upon petrol some years ago and the matter was brought before the seed crushing industry they appreciated the danger to this industry and we were allowed a rebate. Although the Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken in no uncertain terms, I hope that he will seriously consider the position and not jeopardise an industry which we have literally, by sheer ability, taken from Germany.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 263.

    Division No. 97.]

    AYES.

    [10.36 p.m.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Dennison, R.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Dunnico, H.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Edge, Sir William

    Kelly, W. T.

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Baker, Walter

    Fenby, T. D.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Lansbury, George

    Barnes, A.

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Lawson, John James

    Barr, J.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Batey, Joseph

    Gillett, George M.

    Lowth, T.

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Gosling, Harry

    Lumley, L. R.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Lunn, William

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Greenall, T.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Briant, Frank

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Mackinder, W.

    Broad, F. A.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Bromfield, William

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    MacLean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Bromley, J.

    Groves, T.

    March, S.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hall, F. (York., W. R., Normanton)

    Maxton, James

    Buchanan, G.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Montague, Frederick

    Cape, Thomas

    Hardie, George D.

    Morris, R. H.

    Carver, Major W. H.

    Harney, E. A.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Harris, Percy A.

    Murnin, H.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hayday, Arthur

    Naylor, T. E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Owen, Major G.

    Compton, Joseph

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Palin, John Henry

    Connolly, M.

    Hollins, A.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Cove, W. G.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Dalton, Hugh

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Potts, John S.

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Riley, Ben

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Ritson, J.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)

    Snell, Harry

    Westwood, J.

    Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Stamford, T. W.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Sexton, James

    Sutton, J. E.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Windsor, Walter

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Shinwell, E.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Tomlinson, R. P.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

    Smillie, Robert

    Townend, A. E.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Albery, Irving James

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Drewe, C.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Apsley, Lord

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Atkinson, C.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Balniel, Lord

    Fielden, E. B.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Ford, Sir P. J.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Forrest, W.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Lister, Cunliffe-. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Bennett, A. J.

    Frece, Sir Walter de

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Bethel, A.

    Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

    Long, Major Eric

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Looker, Herbert William

    Sirchall, Major J. Dearman

    Gates, Percy.

    Laugher, Lewis

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Goff, Sir Park

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Brass, Captain W.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Grace, John

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    McLean, Major A.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Buchan, John

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

    Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

    Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Meller, R. J.

    Burman, J. B.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hacking, Douglas H.

    Meyer, sir Frank

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hamilton, Sir George

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Hanbury, C.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Harland, A.

    Moors-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Christie, J. A.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Oakley, T.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Cope, Major William

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Couper, J. B.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Philipson, Mabel

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Pilcher, G.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Preston, William

    Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Gunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Radford, E. A.

    1660

    1661

    Ramsden, E.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Remer, J. R.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Smithers, Waldron

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Roberts E. H. G. (Flint)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Wayland, Sir William A.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Wells, S. R.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Rye, F. G.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Salmon, Major I.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Womersley, W. J.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Templeton, W. P.

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Sandon, Lord

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

    Savery, S. S.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Wragg, Herbert

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Captain Margesson and Mr. Penny.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

    Waddington, R.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to move, in line 18, after the word "be," to insert the words:
    "on all turpentine and white spirit used in the manufacture of paints and varnishes."
    I need not go over the general arguments, but I would point out that, whereas in the last Debate we were dealing with a material used as a solvent, here we are dealing with one of the constituent parts of manufactured articles, namely, paints and varnishes in which a great quantity of white spirit and turpentine is actually used. Whereas in the last Debate we were more concerned with an article for home consumption, the paint, colour, and varnish trade is a great world and Imperial trade, and we do a tremendous export business by sending all over the world our special paints and varnishes, much of which is produced in the constituency of the hon. and learned Member for South West Hull (Mr. Grotrian), who, I am sure, will support me in the Division Lobby, as he did just now. The whole city is very much involved in this important industry, with its great export interest.
    Already this trade has been hard hit by the restrictions in regard to dyestuffs. They are not able to buy dyes in the cheapest markets, and now this very large ingredient of manufactured paint will have to bear this duty. I will ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the possibility of allowing a drawback on goods exported. If he can allow exported manufactured silk to have a drawback, cannot he allow a drawback on manufactured paints and
    1662
    enamels? The only other point I would make is that, coming to the home market, the Chancellor is now a great friend of the family man. This duty, as applied to paints and varnishes, will inevitably increase the cost of houses, and it will therefore do something to discourage young couples from setting up house because of the higher cost of house decorating. Therefore, he is taking away something of the remission of the Income Tax for children by the increased cost of houses. For all these reasons, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be less deaf to this appeal than he was to that in connection with feeding stuffs. Surely the painting and decorating of houses for newly-married couples will appeal to him more than did the question of cattle-feeding stuffs.
    Mr. KELLY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    In so doing, I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say whether or not the Industrial Council dealing with this particular industry has been consulted as to the effect of this duty upon that industry. This industry, which has had great difficulties in London, in Lancashire and Cheshire, and in other parts of the country, is now to have a considerable impost put upon it by reason of this increase in price. This extra charge is put upon a raw material of the paint, colour, and varnish industry, and I think, before anything that is going to cause greater hardship to that industry is imposed upon it, at least those engaged in it might have been consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Major ELLIOT: The appeal which the hon. and gallant Member has made, and which brings me to my feet, is connected with a subject in which I am particularly interested. The hon. Member made two appeals, one of which I am sure he will be glad to hear has been already granted in advance by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He asked for a drawback on exported goods, and I am sure he will withdraw all opposition when he hears that that drawback is granted. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said he would not recapitulate all the reasons which led him to move his Amendment, and I am sure he will not expect any spokesman of the Government to recapitulate all the reasons which have led them to reject these arguments of his, because they are very similar to the arguments which he has heard advanced before with far more skill than I can show. On the special plea for exemption on the ground that these articles are used in house painting, I am sure he will realise that this is an industry which has been in receipt of Government assistance to such a tune that it has raised its output to three times that of pre-War, and he will not expect us to believe that it is such a depressed industry that it needs special consideration in this respect. Therefore, I hope that, having gained a considerable portion of his point, because the Chancellor has already dealt with it, he will withdraw his Amendment.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will it be in the Finance Bill?
    Major ELLIOT: Yes. By the regular procedure.
    Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I beg to move, in line 19, to leave out from the word "than" to the end of line 21, and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "hydrocarbon oils or mixtures containing hydrocarbon oils of which oils or mixtures not less than 50 per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 185 degrees centigrade or of which not less than 95 per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 240 degrees centigrade or which give off an inflammable vapour at a temperature of less than 22.8 degrees centigrade when tested in manner prescribed by the Acts relating to petroleum."
    Mr. KELLY: Surely we are going to have an explanation of this Amendment.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The Amendment which has just been read out establishes, we are informed by the Chancellor, a new chemical frontier, though I should myself have said a new political frontier, because my information is that there is nothing more difficult to define exactly than petrol. Although the Amendment as read out earlier in the afternoon sounded very watertight or oil-tight, and I should not on technical grounds be prepared to dispute it as a definition, nevertheless I should like some assurance that the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that no mixture can now be sold which can be used efficiently for vehicles, especially the heavier sort, so as to escape taxation. He might therefore consider giving the House the technical and scientific arguments with which he has reinforced himself and so satisfy those hon. Members who are more capable of judging these matters than I am. The hon. Members of this House ought to be able to understand the most technical subject if it is properly explained to them in plain language. In these days we have to legislate on a great many complicated subjects, and we ought to be able to understand what is properly explained, however apparently technical it may be; and His Majesty's Ministers ought to be able to explain it. I know nobody better fitted to give an explanation than the right hon. Gentleman, whose faculty for grasping technical complications is so well known, and, therefore, I will be glad if he will give us this information.
    Mr. HARDIE: I put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day in his absence, and as it may not have been communicated to him I would like to put it to him now. Does the formula which has been read to the House mean that anything that takes that test is either paraffin or kerosene?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It means that anything that complies with the test in a favourable sense will not be subject to duty, and anything that fails to comply with the test will suffer the full penalties of the duty. It is not so complicated a matter as it may appear. The task of grouping-off these petrols, hydro-carbons, from the light kerosenes is one of great

    1665
    difficulty. The Committee which first started on this subject three years ago consisted of the best scientists we could command, and in addition we also had the services of the chemists of the great oil companies from time to time to advise in this matter, and I think the formula they have arrived at represents the very last word. Certainly for more than a year past all these chemists have been satisfied that this is an effectual manner of differentiating between petrol and paraffin.
    Mr. HARDIE: Do the chemists give any name to these compounds that come under this test?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: We have heard about the perfumes of these oils, but the name really is not a matter with which we need concern ourselves. Everything that will do what this test says it may not do will be subject to taxation. The Committee will see that it is a very thorough test. There are two distillations and a flash point. As it was put to me by one of those eminent chemists, the frontiers will be defended by two cannon and a flammenwerfer.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The Hindenburg Line!
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In that sense, the Hindenburg Line. Whether there will be some infiltration—I believe that was the process adopted in the latter stages of the War—I cannot, of course, say, but we are sure of this, that those people who incautiously use kerosene to drive their motor cars will rue it, and if new cylinders, carburettors and engines are constructed for the purpose of using kerosene, there will be plenty of time to impose some special tax upon that particular form of engine which will more than meet the perverted ingenuity devoted to it. But the serious and important point of this particular resolution is that if the House assents to it at the present time the whole of the oil companies in this country will reduce their charges on kerosene from to-morrow morning to the pre-tax level, and therefore it is a very serious matter that the House should dispose of it with promptitude.
    11.0 p.m.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: I should be very grateful if the Chancellor of the Exche-
    1666
    quer could say whether the new formula would make any difference to the cost of collecting the tax. This afternoon the Chancellor did not make any reference to the cost of collecting. I want to know if the alteration the right hon. Gentleman announced earlier this evening will make any difference to the cost of the collection of the tax? Will the precautions which the Exchequer will have to take to avoid evasion make any appreciable difference?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In the case of the frontier between the whites and the blacks, that is the light oils and the heavy oils, things can be easily arranged; but it is much more complicated to draw a frontier betwen the light oils subject to duty and those which are not. Very likely there will be some additional expense in the collection of the duty, but I do not think it will be very considerable.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I beg to move,
    "That consideration of the remaining Resolutions be now adjourned."
    I think we have now reached a stage at which it would be convenient for us to adjourn and continue the discussion to-morrow.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think the course suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) would best conduce to the convenience of the House. No doubt the proposal in regard to the Sugar Duty will raise a good many contentious points, and I am quite agreeable that we should not press the matter any further to-night. We can then begin with the Sugar Resolution to-morrow. I hope it is understood that we shall get Orders 1, 2 and 3, and the Report stage of the Consolidated Fund (National Debt) Bill by Thursday night without being forced to sit to an unreasonable hour. On that general understanding, I shall be quite content to adjourn now.
    Third and subsequent Resolutions to be considered To-morrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1926, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Bridgwater, in the county of Somerset, and for the amendment of the Bridgwater and District Electric Lighting Order, 1903, which was presented on the 8th day of March, 1928, be approved."
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1926, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of part of the rural district of Thirsk, in the North Riding of the county of York, and part of the rural district of Great Ouseburn, in the West Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 13th day of March, 1928, be approved."—[Colonel Ashley.]

  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACTS.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I beg to move,
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Regulations, dated 3rd April, 1928, entitled the Unemployment Insurance (Courts of Referees) Regulations, 1928, be annulled."
  I do not know whether or not I owe an apology to the hon. Gentleman in charge of this matter, as this is the third day on which this Prayer has appeared on the Paper. On the first day we thought it would not be reached; on the second day, for reasons over which we had no control, the House adjourned unexpectedly; and on this, the third day, the matter is being dealt with. I am raising the question of these Regulations for several reasons. First of all, I think it of the utmost importance, at the beginning of the operation of this Act, that the insured persons of the country should know exactly where they stand. In the past the Courts of Referees Regulations were not very important, as the number of persons who appeared before the Courts was comparatively small. They were in three categories: persons who had left work voluntarily, persons dismissed for some misconduct, and per-
  1668
  sons who were "not genuinely seeking work" but had a claim to standard benefit. With the passing of the new Act the Referees' Courts have taken on an entirely different function namely, to deal at some time or other with practically every insured person who is claiming benefit. At least 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 persons will have to appear before the referees' courts annually. The insured persons ought to know not only the black and white of the Regulations, but the spirit and intention of the Regulations, and what is behind the Minister's mind with the making of the Regulations. The first criticism I make is that the Regulations hitherto have not been known at all by many people.
  I question if many Members of Parliament, even those who take an active part—and I am riot blaming any hon. Member; we all, in our many duties, are called on to specialise—in Unemployment Insurance matters know the court of referees Regulations at all. I question if the persons who are called on from time to time to appear before them, and the trade union officials and others who are called on to act in a judicial capacity, really know these Regulations at all well. Therefore, I think it should have been the duty of the Minister at the start to see that those Regulations, when they assumed a significance they had never assumed before, as possibly a million persons per annum more than were formerly dealt with are now deal with, were circulated and made public. Therefore, I think the Minister ought to have had those Regulations published earlier, and published in a book, booklet or pamphlet, or whatever he cares to call it. That pamphlet should have been issued explaining the Act, and these Regulations ought to have been an integral part of that pamphlet. It is no use explaining what kind of benefit a person is to get unless he or she knows when he or she is going to be disqualified the rights under which he or she can appeal. Therefore, my first criticism is that the Minister made no attempt publicly to issue these Regulations. Indeed, very few, if any, of the Members took any notice of them when they had been laid in this House for the 20 statutory sitting days. I think the Minister is entitled to be criticised for not having long before this caused these Regulations

  1669
  to be published in the pamphlet he issued. I hope that in any subsequent pamphlet or publication issued by his Department he will see that these Regulations are incorporated for the use of those persons who are working under the Act.
  The second criticism I have to pass is that I do not know how far the appointments of the chairmen are made by the Minister. I know that under the main Act the appointment of the chairmen of those Courts of Referees are vested in his hands. Although the Act does not specify that a lawyer shall be the chairman, I know that in practice this job is practically provided for legal gentleman. Why is it that this task of being the chairmen of Courts of Referees should be confined to legal people?
  I have no special disregard for legal people, but I think that a knowledge of industry ought to be indispensable to a chairman. I think that even a man who has been an employer of labour, or a man who may have been at some time an employé of a trade union, or a man who had some knowledge of the working of industry and of handling men, would be in most cases much better fitted for the task than a legal gentleman would be. Take the City of Glasgow, where I know the Courts of Referees fairly well, because, when this House is not sitting, part of my job, which I take on voluntarily—
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members being present—
  Mr. BUCHANAN: The point I was making was that I do not know why a legal gentleman should be chosen as chairman. I hope not to pass any personal criticism on those who in the past have undertaken this task, but in my own district we have two chairmen of the Court of Referees, and a third gentleman who acts as deputy-chairman, and none of them, if I may say so, has had any experience in industry at all; and I understand, although I am not quite sure, that the same gentlemen will be acting under the new Act. None of them, with all due respect, has any firsthand knowledge of industry at all. We think that these people ought to be chosen with some regard to their knowledge of industrial conditions. I want to ask the Parlia-
  1670
  mentary Secretary why it is that throughout the country, practically without exception, legal gentlemen are chosen as chairmen of the courts of referees. We do not say that men should be debarred because they are lawyers, but there is a taint of patronage about the whole business, because, so far as I can gather, at any rate in my own city, the members of the courts of referees and the chairmen are very often men with political sympathies opposed to Labour, and largely sympathetic with the Conservative party. I do not think it is good that chairmen should be vested with immense powers of this kind, and that there should very often be a feeling in the mind of the insured person that it is a matter of patronage, and is given for political services and not for capacity for the job.
  To return to the question of publication, I think that, in addition to publishing a booklet in future, the Parliamentary Secretary might consider whether these regulations could not be made public throughout the Employment Exchanges. It might be possible for him to have a leaflet printed, in order that the clerks might distribute it to the applicants for benefit; or at least this could be done, that every clerk in the Exchange, and every official of a trade union, could be supplied gratis with copies of the regulations for their use, in order that applicants might be well posted on the matter.
  The Regulation says the members of a panel shall hold office for three years from the date of their appointment or for any other term as the Minister may direct. What is the meaning of "any other term"? Does it mean that the Minister, while laying down three years, can make it five, six or seven, or can make it shorter? It says in Sub-section (3):
  "Provided that the Minister may at any time terminate the appointment of any member of the panel."
  It may be the Minister has cause to terminate their service, but anyone who undertakes duties voluntarily is entitled to know the reason his services have been terminated. I see that an applicant is entitled to be summoned to the Committee and is entitled to reasonable notice. There is no definition of what reasonable notice means, and we think

  1671
  the Minister ought to insert in the Regulations a definite time. He cannot object to every applicant having at least two or three days' notice.
  We also ask that in a case where a trade union official or other person appears on behalf of an applicant the applicant ought to have the right of being summoned. I wrote to the Minister about the case of a person who had been disqualified for benefit by the Court of Referees. The Minister always answers with a formal letter, something like this: "Dear Sir, We have made inquiry into the case you wrote to us about, on such and such a date. We find the applicant was disqualified from benefit by the Court of Referees." He proceeds, at the end of his letter, to point out that the Minister has no control over the Court of Referees, and that their decisions are final unless the applicant is in a trade union, when he can appeal to the Umpire. While that may be true, it is not the whole of the truth. In a recent case a person was given benefit and along came the employer and said the Court of Referees was wrong, and then from some mysterious source the Court was re-summoned and its decision overturned. If the Minister says the decision of the Court is final and can only be altered in the case of an insured person who is in a trade union, that ought to apply rigidly all through. The Minister cannot argue that for one case if he is going to allow an employer afterwards to give separate evidence and have the case overturned.
  What he now does is to argue to the Member of Parliament that the decision of the Court of Referees is final, but if the employer comes along and gives information after the Court of Referees has decided he is prepared to take the evidence of the employer and to say that the decision is not final and can be altered. Has a Member of Parliament or a trades union official, or someone acting for the insured person the same right as an employer to have a case reheard? I have raised these points, and I will now leave the matter to my colleague, who has a number of other points to bring to the notice of the House. I hope that the Minister in replying to these points will at least give us some sort of satisfaction on some of these points.
  Mr. STEPHEN: I beg to second the Motion.
  I am sorry that we have to keep the House waiting late in order to discuss these Regulations. Perhaps hon. Members will not feel it so badly when they remember that the Regulations are to govern the conduct of the Court of Referees which will have to deal with hundreds and thousands of cases of people claiming unemployment insurance benefit. An alteration has been made that in future cases are not to be heard by the Rota Committees or by the Local Employment Committee, but that all cases in which there is a dispute with regard to benefit will be heard by a Court of Referees. When they think of the burden of unemployment and the great hardships that the unemployed have had to endure in connection with their applications for benefit, Members of this House who represent the unemployed should not worry at having to spare the time to consider these Regulations.
  Coming to the Regulations themselves, I would like the Minister to give some information with regard to the Advisory Committees. I would like to know how many of these Advisory Committees are in existence. I would like him also, if he can do so, to inform me of the constitution of the Advisory Committee as far as the Employment Exchange in my own area is concerned. One of the Regulations has to do with the appointment of members of the Courts of Referees, and power is given to the Minister to dismiss any member of the Court of Referees, without warning. I can well understand that the Minister may require such powers, but if he has that power there ought to be some check. It is the old problem of the Executive and the Legislature. The Courts of Referees exercise judicial functions and a member of such a court may take an independent line in the hearing of cases and may come into conflict with the officials of the Ministry of Labour. If that member carries on his duties faithfully and gets into an uncomfortable position and his services are to be dispensed with, there ought to be some check. I do not know exactly what check might be imposed, but perhaps the Minister might see his way to amend

  1673
  the Regulation so that there could be an appeal by any member of the Court of Referees whose services have been dispensed with—an appeal, say, to the Umpire, who is an official quite independent of the Minister of Labour.
  Possibly hon. Members who have interested themselves in the administration of unemployment insurance may have had experience similar to mine. They may have met members of their Rota Committees who have expressed the opinion that because their decisions were so often favourable to the applicants for benefit, they found that they were not being called upon very often to serve on the Rota Committee. That is not something that is purely hypothetical. I have met members of Rota Committees, the representatives of the working classes in Glasgow, on several occasions, and always at the meetings voices have been raised expressing the opinion that members of Rota Committees who showed themselves too independent in connection with their decisions found that their services were practically never required. Therefore, this is a matter of some importance, and as these Regulations in future are to affect a larger number of persons, the Minister ought to give some safeguard to members of the Rota Committees, who are giving their services. Only the chairman is a paid official; the other members are unpaid, and it is only fair that the chairman or any member of the committee should have the right of appeal to some authority if he feels that the Minister has acted unfairly in his treatment of him.
  One regulation allows the Court to proceed when there is not the regulation number of members present. The regulation provides that in these circumstances the Court can only proceed if the applicant is willing. I would ask the House to remember that very often applicants for benefit are overawed by a sense of the dignity of the Court when they come before it. When they are asked if they will go on in the absence of the full number they do not know what to say. I am not going to complain of that so much now, although there may be ground for asking the Minister not to give any Court this power. But what happens is this. The Court proceeds with the case and the number of members of
  1674
  the Court present is an even number. The voting is equal and in such circumstances the regulations gives the chairman a second or casting vote. That regulation should be amended, so that if there is equal voting the case should be carried over to a full meeting of the Court. I think the Minister himself would agree that this would be a fairly reasonable amendment of these regulations.
  If the Minister reads through the series of qualifications which are necessary for membership of the Court of Referees, he will find that they might be much more clearly stated. I am not sure that one of them would not debar anyone from membership of the Court who was not himself qualified to receive unemployment benefit. That would mean that the lawyer chairman, the trade union official, and the employer would all be disqualified. I may be wrong in my reading of this passage but certainly the qualifications are clumsily stated and regulations of this kind ought to be as clear as crystal. A case may be referred to the Court of Referees and the Court may decide that further inquiry is necessary. They may appoint one or two of their number to inquire and report. I have no objection to that, but I ask that when members of the Court of Referees make such an inquiry, a copy of their report should be sent to the applicant. He should have it 24 hours before he appears in Court. He should know what is the report and should be able to deal with it when he is putting his case before the Court. It is said in one of the regulations that reasonable notice ought to be given to the applicant of his being required to attend the Court. We suggest that a definite minimum time should be stated. While the rota committees were in operation people sometimes got notice in the morning to appear in the afternoon. That is not fair. A man may go out in the forenoon looking for work and may have to go far afield. This notice may come during his absence and cause a great deal of worry and trouble. We say that a definite minimum time should be made, say 48 hours or three days, so as to give the applicant time in order that he will know when he is to go before the committee, and will be able to give notice if he desires to ask a friend to assist him in presenting his case. The Minister may say that he will

  1675
  give instructions that that will be the case, but it would be better if it were put in a Regulation.
  I am convinced that much trouble and a feeling of resentment is created in connection with unemployment insurance by the uncertainty with regard to matters connected with the administration. A matter of importance is that when the Court of Referees are considering their decision, the representative of the Ministry of Labour should be asked to withdraw if the applicant is asked to withdraw. The representative of the Ministry should not be in the room when the Court are considering their decision. I hope the Minister will be able to provide for that in the Regulations. I should like also that the applicant should have the decision of the Court intimated to him personally instead of being told that he would hear about it. One other point is that the applicant is entitled to know who the members of the Court are. There may be difficulties in connection with this, but I hope the Minister will be able to meet us, for the applicants should know who are the people who are sitting in judgment on them. As I understand it, the Minister is looking for the new Act to work the 30 statutory payments rule and that it will operate in such a way that after the transition period is passed, the 30 payments will in the main be sufficient to deal with most of the cases. With the operation of the rule, there will be only a comparatively small number of cases in which the genuineness of the claim to benefit will be called in question. If that be so, it seems to me that there will not be any very great difficulty in intimating who are the members of the Court who have come to the decision.
  I would ask the Minister also to look at Regulation 4 (i, c), "Procedure of the Court of Referees." He will find there a reference to Section 11 (2, a) of the Act, and I would like him to explain what is the meaning of that paragraph. It does not seem to me at all clear, and I would be grateful to have an explanation of it. I hope these Regulations will be put in the Employment Exchanges and will be available for any member of the public, for any unemployed person to read for himself, so
  1676
  that he may know what exactly his position is. I would also suggest to the Minister that it would be a good thing if they could be put into the public libraries. After all, you want to make this Unemployment Insurance Act as efficient as possible, and you want to deal fairly and generously with the people who have to bear the burden of unemployment, and I think the points that we have brought forward to-night are worthy of the consideration of the House.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), in opening his remarks, said he was not quite sure whether an apology was not due to me in consequence of the fact that this Prayer had been on the Order Paper for several different days but had not been raised. So far as I am concerned, no apology whatever is needed, because I know quite well that on the previous occasions it was not in any way the fault of the hon. Member that the Prayer was not then raised. He said that his object in raising this discussion was that the fullest publicity should be given to these Regulations, because, as he rightly points out, the importance of the Courts of Referees is greatly enhanced by reason of the operation of the new Act, which came into effect about 10 days ago. With that object I entirely sympathise, because I think the greater the publicity that is given to these Regulations the better. Not only are claimants entitled to know what are the Regulations which govern the procedure of the courts, but we desire, as the hon. Members desire, that claimants should in all cases have the greatest possible confidence in the court that has to decide their claims. Therefore, I will consider, with my advisers, the best way of giving the greatest possible publicity to the Regulations themselves, and I will consider whether—in fact, I see no reason at all against it—the Regulations should not be contained in any new edition of the pamphlet to which the hon. Member referred, when such an edition becomes necessary. Apart from that, I will consider whether, either by posting them up in the Exchanges or by taking any other action in my power, I can meet the object which he has in view.

  1677
  I think it would be convenient if I dealt with the various points raised in the reverse order to that in which they were put, dealing first with the last point raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen). He asked what was the meaning of Regulation 4 (1, c) and he suggested that the Regulation needs some explanation, because, as no doubt he has noticed, it is a new Regulation. The reason it is put in is that under the new Act these cases come up for review after 13 weeks. We anticipate that in the vast majority of these cases benefit will be allowed, and it would be a waste of unnecessary work if we set out definitely that the claimants were to be given the right to be present in court when the cases are considered. I say quite definitely that under this Regulation the claimant will always have notice to attend or to be represented in the ordinary way before an adverse recommendation is made, so that he will not be prejudiced in any way if he is not present at the review of his case. Then the hon. Member asked that a claimant should be told the names of the members of the court. I think that request is a perfectly reasonable one, and I am prepared to say now that in any case where a claimant desires to know the names of the persons sitting in judgment in the court he will be told, and there will be no difficulty therefore on that point.
  The next question was as to the right to be present. That, I think, is covered by the Regulation 4 (1, b), which lays down that the applicant shall be entitled to be present as well as the insurance officer when the Court is discussing its decision; either the applicant shall be entitled to be present as well as the insurance officer, or neither. That is really covered by the Regulation as it stands, because the Court has power to order all persons not being members of the Court to withdraw. The provision is, therefore, quite general and is not specially applicable either to one side or the other.
  Mr. STEPHEN: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, this is the point: The power is general to the Committee. They may ask the applicant to withdraw or they may ask all to withdraw. What I am anxious is that if the applicant is asked to withdraw, they should compel the
  1678
  withdrawal of the Ministry's representative as well. The practice hitherto has been that the Ministry's representative sits on and the applicant is asked to withdraw. The Ministry's representative sits on and discusses the case with the Committee, and, as I am informed by members of the Court, influences the decision of the Court. It is for the Court of Referees to give the decision. I am anxious to get a decision that if the applicant has to go out the Ministry's representative must leave also. Both should be out or both should be in.
  Mr. BETTERTON: I should have thought the Regulation as it stands would have been sufficient. I am told there are the strictest instructions to the effect that the representative of the Ministry is in no circumstances to attempt to influence the Court. In any case it rests with the Court itself to decide and the Court has the power to order all persons to withdraw while they are discussing their decision.
  Mr. TINKER: I tan say that the representative of the Ministry stays in the room in the majority of cases when the applicant goes out, and uses his influence.
  Mr. BETTERTON: Clearly the Court has the power to order all persons to withdraw, and I have no doubt if it thought there was any danger of any improper use being made to influence it, that is the course it would take.
  Mr. SKELTON: Might not the Court naturally hesitate to order an official to withdraw?
  Mr. BETTERTON: I do not think the Court would hesitate for an instant to ask anybody to withdraw. Another point raised was as to the notice of the hearing, both hon. Members asking that some definite notice should be given. The Regulations require that reasonable notice should be given and hitherto the practice has been that 24 hours' notice should be given. If we lay down any fixed time, whether it be 48 hours or three days, the result may be to delay a decision, which would not, of course, be in the interest of the applicant. I am most anxious to meet hon. Members in all parts of the House, and I will say at once that if in any place the majority of applicants—so far as we can gauge the opinion of the

  1679
  majority—would like longer notice, I will see that that is given, that is, in any place where it seems to be the general desire. If in Glasgow or anywhere it is the general wish of applicants to have three days' notice, I will do my best to ensure that that three days' notice is given; but my reason for not laying it down as a general rule is that I do not want to do anything which might unduly prolong the proceedings before a case could be decided.
  12.0 m.
  The next point was as to the report which was made under the Regulations, and it is suggested that the contents of the Report should be communicated to the applicant. I think that proposal is a fair one, and I am prepared to accept it.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Is it not a fact that the Minister has power to terminate the engagement of a member of the Court?
  Mr. BETTERTON: It is a fact that this power has been vested in successive Ministers of Labour since the year 1920, but the number of occasions on which they have exercised that power is quite infinitesimal. The whole object of this legislation is to secure the independence of the Court. If it is suggested that the action of the Minister is calculated or intended to secure the subservience of the Court, then the Minister would not be fit for his office. The present arrangement has worked perfectly well.
  The next question put to me had reference to the right of the applicant to be heard by a full Court. That right is very carefully safeguarded in the Regulations, which provide that any applicant is entitled to be heard by a full Court unless he consents to be heard by a Court which is incomplete. If the Court is incomplete, it follows that there must be a casting vote; otherwise, there would be no finality.
  Mr. MAXTON: Give the casting vote to the applicant.
  Mr. BETTERTON: Under the Regulations any dissenting member may record his dissent and give his reasons for it. That is an additonal safeguard for the reason that the finding of the Court of Referees is not a final finding, but a recommendation to the Insurance Officer
  1680
  which may or may not be taken to the Umpire. I was asked about the Advisory Committees appointed under the Act of 1909. They are now really the local Employment Committees. There are 330 local Employment Committees and 309 Juvenile Committees. Bridgetown has its own Committee, while Camlachie is covered by a Committee in the neighbourhood.
  The hon. Member for Gorbals asked also why lawyers should usually be appointed as Chairmen, and he said, "Why not appoint either an employer or some representative of an employed person?" The answer clearly is that under Sub-section (2) of Section (1) the other two members of the Committee are representatives of the employers and of the insured persons, and the arrangements would not work so well if the Chairman also was taken from one of these two classes. From long experience in the working of the Courts of Referees, we have found that lawyers, with their experience of construing what are very complicated Acts of Parliament, have done their work well, and are most suited for the office of Chairman.
  Mr. POTTS: Will the Parliamentary Secretary undertake to issue an instruction that when an applicant is asked to withdraw the representative of the Ministry must also withdraw while the Court is taking a decision?
  Mr. BETTERTON: No. That is a matter for the Court of Referees themselves. The Court has power, and I am not prepared to interfere with it, of issuing any specific instructions.
  Mr. POTTS: Suppose the applicant is asked to withdraw and the Minister's representative is not. Will not that sort of thing go on for ever unless you alter it? A decision ought to be reached now to make both stop in the Court or both walk out.
  Mr. BETTERTON: The power of the Court is the same in regard to the one side or the other.
  Mr. POTTS: The Courts do not exercise it.
  Mr. BETTERTON: I am not prepared to interfere with the way in which business is conducted or to give instructions.
  Mr. TINKER: Where there is an incomplete Court and there is a tie for and against any decision, the question ought to be put to the applicant whether he would accept the decision of the casting vote, and if he objects the matter ought to be put back to another Court. In the way it is left now everything depends on the Chairman of the Court. If the voting is one-and-one, it is the Chairman's decision that counts, and generally that will be against the applicant.
  Mr. BETTERTON: I really do not think that suggestion is quite reasonable, because the claimant has the alternative of deciding beforehand whether he would like his case decided by the incomplete Court or the complete Court.
  Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: As I read the Clause, it is this:
  "For the purpose of discussing this recommendation, the Court may order all persons not being members of the Court to withdraw from the sitting of the Court."
  I suggest that that does not give them power to do anything except what it says, namely, to order all parties to withdraw from the Court.
  Mr. MAXTON: I want to raise again the point about the appointment of the chairman. I am not satisfied that a lawyer is the best type of person to decide this very important matter of protecting an unemployed man. With reference to the clearïng of the Court, I think if the Minister is prepared to make no other concession, he should make it clear that the Ministry of Labour representative is not a member of the Court. In my experience, he assumes the position that he is not there in a similar position to the applicant or Counsel to the Ministry of Labour, but as a clerk to the Court and as a member of the Court. It ought to be made clear that this person, acting as it were as Counsel for the Prosecution, is not a member of the Court, or a clerk of the Court, but a member of the general public. If the Ministry of Labour representative is allowed to remain, so should the claimant. As to the composition of the new Court, we have been discussing in Scottish Grand Committee a Bill for the reorganisation of offices in Scotland, and
  1682
  the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Lord Advocate have convinced me that in public posts the appointment of men by patronage is a very vicious one. I gather from the replies given by the Minister in the House that it is proposed to appoint this Chairman of Referees purely on the Minister's own judgment. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that I should be prepared to trust his judgment if I believed that he personally was going to see the persons who were going to be appointed, though I do not believe it is good to give a general power of that description into the hands of a Minister; but I know that the Parliamentary Secretary, not to mention the Minister, will not see the persons appointed to these posts. On whose advice is the appointment of these suitable lawyers to be made? Is it to be that of the local Conservative Association?
  My postbag with reference to this matter has been rather interesting, and I want some device other than that of patronage before I am going to believe that these chairmen are neutral persons who are going to hold the balance evenly between the claimant and the Ministry, and, as will frequently be the case, between worker and employer. I would not trust, generally, the lawyer to be the detached person capable of taking a judicial point of view. I do not think his training develops that in him. I think the legal training tends to develop the partisan element rather than the judicial capacity, and, if I were looking for suitable people for appointments of this description, I would find men who had sat as Judges in legal Courts, who had been magistrates in our great cities, who had had experience in weighing evidence, who had got into the habit of detaching themselves from personal prejudices; and, having settled upon that type as a suitable type, I would then have some method of testing their capacity, and would appoint them as a result of a definite test and not as a result of favouritism. I want the hon. Gentleman to tell the House how he proposes to proceed in the making of these appointments, how these men are going to be recruited, and who is going to advise the Minister as to the appointments; and I would urge him to cut out the

  1683
  lawyer qualification. I believe that the lawyers have persuaded the Government in this and in other connections that every political party must always have a certain number of public appointments that they can throw into the greedy maw of the legal profession. The legal profession has persuaded the Tory party to that point of view, but I think that it is not a good one, and that it should be combated. I want to combat it here to-night, and if I cannot get satisfaction, I personally, whatever my hon. Friends may do, an strongly inclined to go into the Lobby against these Regulations.
  Mr. BETTERTON: I am sure the hon. Member will not believe that there is any truth in the suggestion that these appointments are just handed out to anyone whom the Minister desires to favour. The universal practice, since these Acts were passed—and I have myself followed it closely during the last few days—is, in England, to ask the County Court Judges in the districts
  where these Courts are set up for names of persons whom they think have just the qualifications which the hon. Member would desire, and the County Court Judge sends a list of names of gentlemen who, he thinks, have those particular qualities, giving in each case the reasons why he thinks so and the qualifications of each of the gentlemen in question; and one or other of the names suggested by him is, I think I may say, always accepted by the Minister. That is in the case of England. In Scotland, the Scottish Office obtain similar information from a gentleman who, I think, is the equivalent of a County Court Judge in England, namely the sheriff substitute. I can, therefore, at once dismiss any suspicion which any hon. Member may have that these important posts are handed out by way of patronage. On the contrary, we do our utmost, by the means I have indicated, to secure the very best men for the posts.
  Question put.
  The House divided: Ayes, 27; Noes, 93.

  Division No. 98.]

  AYES.

  [12.22 a.m.

  Barr, J.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Kirkwood, D.

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Dunnico, H.

  Lawson, John James

  Westwood, J.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Maxton, James

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hardie, George D.

  Potts, John S.

  Hint, W. (Bradford, South)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Mr. Thomas Henderson and Mr. Buchanan.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Apsley, Lord

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Neville, Sir Reginald J.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Goff, Sir Park

  Philipson, Mabel

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Ramadan, E.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Remer, J. R.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Hacking, Douglas H.

  Ropner, Major L.

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Buchan, John

  Harland, A.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Burman, J. B.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Skelton, A. N.

  Campbell, E. T.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

  Cope, Major William

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Couper, J. B.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Hilton, Cecil

  Storry-Deans, R.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  King, Commodore Henry Douglas

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Wragg, Herbert

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Womersley, W. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Wells, S. R.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Sir Victor Warrender and Captain Wallace.

  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without
  1686
  Question put, pursuant to the Standing order.
  Adjourned at Half after Twelve O'Clock.

  IRON AND STEEL (INDIAN CONSIGNMENTS).
  IRON AND STEEL (INDIAN CONSIGNMENTS).
  BRITISH SHIPS (OFFICERS).
  BRITISH SHIPS (OFFICERS).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  IRON AND STEEL WORKS, LANARK.
  IRON AND STEEL WORKS, LANARK.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  ALLOWANCE (HOUSEKEEPERS).
  ALLOWANCE (HOUSEKEEPERS).
  SHALE INDUSTRY.
  SHALE INDUSTRY.
  ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.
  ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (BALLOT PAPERS).
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (BALLOT PAPERS).
  SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA (FOREIGN MONEY).
  SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA (FOREIGN MONEY).
  TRANSPORT (LIGHT SIGNALS).
  TRANSPORT (LIGHT SIGNALS).
  ELECTRICITY CHARGES, PONTEFRACT.
  ELECTRICITY CHARGES, PONTEFRACT.
  SILVER CURRENCY.
  SILVER CURRENCY.
  TIN-MINING (INSPECTORS).
  TIN-MINING (INSPECTORS).
  FOREIGN FISHING VESSELS (STATISTICS).
  FOREIGN FISHING VESSELS (STATISTICS).
  EXPLOSIVES (RESEARCH WORK).
  EXPLOSIVES (RESEARCH WORK).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  MATERNAL MORTALITY.
  MATERNAL MORTALITY.
  SMALL-POX.
  SMALL-POX.
HOUSING.
  CONTRACT PRICES.
  CONTRACT PRICES.
  INSANITARY HOUSES, PLYMOUTH.
  INSANITARY HOUSES, PLYMOUTH.
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  ROYAL NAVY (SHALE OIL).
  ROYAL NAVY (SHALE OIL).
  SOLOMON ISLANDS (PRISON CAMP, MALAITA).
  SOLOMON ISLANDS (PRISON CAMP, MALAITA).
  PLATINUM PROSPECTING, SIERRA LEONE.
  PLATINUM PROSPECTING, SIERRA LEONE.
  YEMEN (ZARANIQ TRIBE).
  YEMEN (ZARANIQ TRIBE).
  PERSIA (CAIRO-KARACHI AIR SERVICE).
  PERSIA (CAIRO-KARACHI AIR SERVICE).
  POST OFFICE (EXEMPTION FROM OVERTIME).
  POST OFFICE (EXEMPTION FROM OVERTIME).
  EDUCATION (DEAF AND DUMB).
  EDUCATION (DEAF AND DUMB).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
DAGENHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
MID-KENT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS (CONSOLIDATION) BILL.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Commons Message of Thursday last.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Paper in my name, which follows upon a Motion to which your Lordships have already agreed.
Moved, That this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons, namely: "That it is expedient that the Bill be referred to the Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament to be appointed for the consideration of the Dover Gas Bill [H.L.]."—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

COTTON INDUSTRY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, this is a Bill which in the main concerns the administration of London. It proposes to continue in substance the temporary legislation of which your Lordships have
904
already four times approved. There are, however, certain new features in this Bill which make it desirable for me to recall to your Lordships some of the details of the former Acts. In 1921 the existence of unemployment and distress in certain London districts led the Government to prepare a scheme whereby the burden of relief should be distributed over the County of London as a whole. The method adopted was the enlargement of the scope of the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund.
The functions of this Fund had hitherto been confined to the provision and maintenance of certain institutions and their inmates. Under this new scheme all boroughs have for some time contributed to the Fund according to their rateable values, and have drawn on it in accordance, in the first place, with a scale specially prepared by the Minister. In the course of time it became apparent that the form of control by this special scale was unworkable, and it was laid down that in future the boards might draw on the Fund up to a certain sum calculated on the number of poor persons relieved per day. The sum eventually fixed upon was 9d. per head per day. It is apparent that in a scheme of this kind, where some boards contributed more than they received and others received more than they contributed, a considerable difference of opinion would prevail as to the exact figure at which this sum should be settled. This has been the case, but the Minister, after considering the matter very fully, has as yet seen no reason to alter the figure of 9d.
It was also argued that the mere laying down of a certain sum per head did not shut the door to certain boards being unduly extravagant, especially in regard to the numbers relieved. Perhaps I might give certain figures which compare various boroughs with each other in regard to the average numbers that they relieved at the commencement of this scheme as compared with the present time. For instance, the Borough of Hackney relieved 1,163 persons in 1921, and Stepney relieved 1,030 persons; while in 1928 the figure for Hackney had risen to 5,434 and that for Stepney to 16,320. Islington started with the figure of 2,532 at a time when Poplar had 2,934; and Islington has since risen to 5,807 and Poplar to 23,913. I think that those

905
figures show that there is considerable discrepancy as to the method of relief in different boroughs. After considering this argument it appeared to my right hon. friend only fair that, since this Fund represented money belonging to the whole of London, which amounted in the last half year to something like £3,000,000, some person or body should be appointed to act as a kind of trustee in the interests of London to prevent the expenditure of money in ways such as are generally accepted in administrative circles to be unsound.
In this Bill he merely gave effect to the principle that I have mentioned, and he submits that this control should be instituted. For the purpose of exercising that control he has selected the Metropolitan Asylums Board. It may be said that there is no theoretical reason why this particular body should exercise these functions of control, as it certainly was not originally created for this purpose. That is perfectly true, but it is also true that this body, which contains some 55 representatives of boards of guardians and 18 members nominated by the Ministry, is both by its position and its experience in Poor Law administration particularly well qualified to perform this task. The Minister might, of course, have appointed himself as the controlling authority, but he considered that any decision that he might make in that capacity might be interpreted by aggrieved boards as being based on Party and political prejudice. He might also have appointed a special ad hoe body, but he was unwilling to add still another body to those already existing in London, particularly in view of the immediate prospects of a general reform of the Poor Law. The whole of this Bill is, of course, very largely overshadowed by the intended reform of the Poor Law, which would involve the disappearance of separate boards of guardians in London, of which there are now 25, and of the Common Poor Fund, while the present Bill and the Act of 1921 would automatically cease to operate, although the four years have not yet expired.
The machinery by which it is proposed that this Bill should operate is as follows. Before the commencement of the half year the estimates submitted by boards of guardians of their expenditure during the half year on each of the heads under which a charge may be made on the
906
Fund will be reviewed. There will also be a review of the amount of the charge to be made on the Fund, which may be less than the expenditure in respect of all the different heads under consideration. It will be this second set of items that the Metropolitan Asylums Board will be empowered to criticise and, if they think fit, to reduce, and where they make a reduction it will be the duty of the district auditor, before giving the prescribed certificate on which payments out of the Fund can be made, to reduce the charge which would be made by the guardians apart from the proposed control if it exceeds the amount approved by the Metropolitan Asylums Board. In certain circumstances it will be permissible for boards of guardians to submit supplementary estimates.
I think that this really covers the main substance of the Bill, but I should like to point out in conclusion that the Bill does not prevent guardians from spending money how they like, provided that it is their own money. In regard to London's money, it embodies the principle that London should have some say as to how this money is to be administered. The body selected by the Minister to represent London may be unsuitable in name, but from every other point of view it has, in my right hon. friend's opinion, all the required qualifications, not the least of which is the capacity to do its work. In my right hon. friend's opinion it has shown considerable municipal patriotism in consenting to undertake the task. I submit, therefore, that this is a much needed reform, and that the machinery is efficient and economical and will prove suitable to this task, which will be in any case a very short one.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Gage.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, perhaps the noble Viscount will tell me whether I am right in this. It seems to me that this Bill does really only two things. It carries on the existing system for four years, till 1932, it makes no provision about figures, the 9d. is not altered, and it substitutes for the existing machinery the introduction of the Metropolitan Asylums Board and the district auditor as the people who are to pronounce on whether the estimates which the various local bodies set up as measuring their requisition are just.

907
So far as I can find the Bill does nothing more than that. No doubt it does something in so far as it brings in under the clause upon the second page the new authority which is to advise upon the subject, but it makes no difference, except in the introduction of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, to the present system. I do not think that this can remain as a permanent system, and I assume that the Government have in view to deal on a large scale with the government of London, carrying matters further, but so far as it stands this Bill seems to me to go no further than what I have said, and I would ask the noble Viscount to tell me whether that is so.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I think the noble and learned Viscount is right in his assumption. The new authority will exercise a kind of supervising control. The figure of 9d. will still act as a guide to the authorities in making their claims. The new authority will have power of supervising those claims and, if necessary, making an overhead cut in the general total.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Qualification of probate and district probate registrars, and tenure, etc., of district probate registrars.
(2) In Part I. of the Third Schedule to the principal Act after the words "Registrar, Probate Division" there shall be added the words "(not including a district probate registrar)," and the principal Act shall be deemed as from the commencement thereof to have had effect as if the said words had been contained therein as originally enacted.
(3) The following subsection shall be added at the end of section one hundred and nineteen of the principal Act:—
908
"(3) This section shall in relation to a district probate registrar have effect as if for the words 'if appointed since the commencement of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1884,' there were substituted the words 'if appointed since the first day of June, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight'."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), after "probate registrar," to insert "appointed after the first day of June, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight." The noble Viscount said: This Bill is known as the Administration of Justice Bill, and yet in the clause under consideration an act of injustice is sought to be perpetrated by depriving certain individuals of the rights given to them in the Act of 1925. People who have been appointed between 1925 and the present time may have relied upon those rights. I do not think there has been any adequate quid pro quo for taking away those rights. The noble and learned Lord may say that they are made officers of the Court under the new Section 128A, but to make any difference between these officers and the Registrar of the Court is, I think, unfair, and I therefore beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 11, after ("registrar") insert ("appointed after the first day of June, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM): I should be very sorry to suppose that under this Bill we were taking away rights conferred upon any persons, but I think I can relieve the fears of the noble Viscount, and of your Lordships' House, in that regard. The position is this. Under the Act of 1925 there is a provision in the Third Schedule that certain persons, including Registrars, are not to be in the same position as ordinary civil servants, and are to have certain special rights as regards pensions and date of retirement. Nothing is said about the district probate registrars, and I think there can be very little doubt that the term "registrar" would not be held to include a district probate registrar. No claim has yet been made by any district probate registrar that he does come within the term "registrar," and there is no possible reason, on merits, why this special provision should be applied to district probate registrars. The provision was intended to cover

909
persons who are exercising judicial functions, such persons as Masters of the Supreme Court, and the Registrars, who do have to perform judicial duties. The district probate registrars have no judicial functions, but purely administrative functions, and therefore there is no reason why they should be put in the same position as judicial personages under the provision of Schedule 3; but as we were bringing in this measure, and it is desirable there shall be no possible doubt left upon the point, we thought it right to remove any doubt by including this clause, which makes it clear that Registrars, and Registrars only, are included by the term, and that district probate registrars are not included.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: After the explanation given by the noble and learned Lord, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 5 agreed to.
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE had given Notice to move, before Clause 6, to insert the following new clause:—
". At the end of section fifty-six of the principal Act there shall be inserted the following paragraph:—
"(d) Notwithstanding the provisoes in paragraphs vii and xii of section twenty-two, subsection (1) any claim for necessaries supplied to a ship and any claim arising out of an agreement relating to the use or hire of a ship, or relating to the carriage of goods in a ship, or any tort in respect of goods carried in a ship may be assigned to the Probate Division. But the jurisdiction so exercised shall not be 'deemed to be Admiralty jurisdiction, and must be exercised in personam only and not in rem.'"
The noble and learned Lord said: I do not propose to move this Amendment. On the Second Reading I troubled your Lordships' house with a few reasons for this Amendment, but the object to be attained was not very easy when it came to drafting the Amendment. I put down this Amendment, but I was very much relieved when I found the Amendment which stands in the name of the Lord Chancellor, which seems to me to be not only better than my own but good in itself, and one which I hope the House will adopt. That being so I do not propose to trouble the House with a speech now, but I am prepared to support
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the principle, and to support the Amendment of the Lord Chancellor, if there should be opposition to it. I trust, however, there will be none, and at any rate I reserve myself till then.
LORD MERRIVALE: Before the Lord Chancellor moves the Amendment standing in his name I should like to ask him whether he takes the view which Lord Phillimore takes, and which I take, that his Amendment covers the ground which had been intended to be covered by Lord Phillimore's Amendment, and whether it deals with a difficulty which has arisen by reason of a decision in the Court of Appeal to which Lord Phillimore referred.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment which I am proposing to move does in my view deal with the difficulty to which my noble and learned friend has referred. I do not think it deals with it in precisely the same way as the Amendment in the name of Lord Phillimore. For example, as I read Lord Phillimore's Amendment, if an action were commenced in the Admiralty Division that is at present outside its jurisdiction—an action about claims arising out of agreement relating to the use or hire of a ship and so on—Admiralty rules would apply to the action which at present do not apply; and therefore, for instance, the rule under which interest is recoverable, as I think it is in the Admiralty Court, from the date of the cause of action, instead of, as in the Common Law Courts, from the date of the judgment, and similar rules, would apply. The Amendment I am moving does not have the same effect.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, before Clause 6, to insert the following new clause:—
Jurisdiction of Divisions of High Court.
". The following subsection shall be inserted at the end of section four of the principal Act:—
'(4) Without prejudice to the provisions of this Act relating to the distribution of business in the High Court, all jurisdiction vested in the High Court under this Act shall belong to all the Divisions alike.'"
The noble and learned Lord said: The Amendment I am moving is directed to remove what some of your Lordships, I think, regarded as the unfortunate effect of the decision in the Sheafbrook case. That was an action

911
which was heard ultimately in the Court of Appeal, and in which the Court of Appeal decided that on the true construction of the Act of 1925—which was a Consolidation Act and did not alter the law—the Admiralty Division was in a different position from the other Divisions of the High Court, and that whereas under the Judicature Act, 1873, and again under the Act of 1925 all the Divisions of the Courts which were amalgamated were combined into one Court, and each of them exercised the whole jurisdiction of the High Court, yet, when you came to the Admiralty Division, the position was not the same, and there was no jurisdiction in the Admiralty Division to hear any cases except those which were expressly assigned to it.
That seemed to me, and I think to some of your Lordships, to have an unfortunate result and to put the Admiralty Division in a position of inferiority which it certainly was neither intended nor desired that it should occupy. Whether or not it was a right decision I do not think it is necessary to discuss, but the object of my Amendment is to make it clear that that decision is wrong, and that in future the Admiralty Division, equally with the other Divisions of the High Court, exercises all the jurisdiction which is vested in the High Court of Justice. I think the Amendment which I move secures that object, and it is confined to securing that object.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 27, at end insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 6 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11:
Provisions as to bonds given under order of court.
11. The following section shall be inserted after section two hundred and nineteen of the principal Act:—
(3) Where it appears to the satisfaction of the court that the condition of a bond given in accordance with the provisions of this section has been broken, the court may, on an application in that behalf, order that the bond shall be assigned to such person as may be specified in the order and the person to whom the bond is assigned in pursuance of the order shall be entitled
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to sue thereon in his own name as if it had been originally given to him, and to recover thereon as trustee for all persons interested the full amount recoverable in respect of the breach of the condition thereof."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "assigned in pursuance of the order" and to insert "ordered to be assigned," and, after "entitled," to insert "by virtue of the order." The noble and learned Lord said: These are drafting Amendments to make it clear that there will not have to be a deed of assignment as well as an order that a bond should be assigned. It is purely for that purpose that we have put down these Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 9, line 30, leave out from ("is") to ("shall") in line 31, and insert ("ordered to be assigned").
Page 9, line 31, after ("entitled") insert ("by virtue of the order").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12 [Power to appoint Indian, Judges, etc.]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment I move in this clause is purely drafting. It is to correct a slip in grammar.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 2, leave out ("that section") and insert ("those sections").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 13 to 20 agreed to.
Clause 21:
Short title, repeal, construction and printing.
21.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Administration of Justice Act, 1928.
(2) The enactments set out in the Second Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule.
(3) This Act (except so much thereof as amends Part II of the Administration of Justice Act, 1920) shall not apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR had on the Paper an Amendment, after "1920," in subsection (3), to insert "or amends the Guardianship of Infants Acts, 1886 and

913
1925." The noble and learned Lord said: I am sorry to say I have to move this Amendment in a slightly different form from that which appears on the Paper. The Amendment is designed to correct a slip under the Bill as submitted to the House. Your Lordships will remember there is provision made that courts of summary jurisdiction are to have the same jurisdiction on applications by fathers as they have on applications by mothers. It is an anomaly which has long been noticed, and which wants putting right. Unfortunately the wording of Clause 21, which provides for the application of parts of this Bill to Scotland and Northern Ireland, would, as drafted, have omitted the benefit of that clause for Scotland, and accordingly the Amendment which I had put down was intended to make it clear that that applied to Scotland as well. But, as drafted, the result would be to apply it to Northern Ireland, where it is inapplicable; therefore I am moving in a slightly different form, so as to secure that the Guardianship of Infants Acts Amendments shall be applicable to Scotland, but that they shall not be applicable to Northern Ireland. I move to leave out the words "or Northern Ireland," at the end of subsection (3), and to add a new subsection, which will be subsection (4), in exactly the form of the present subsection (3), but leaving out the word "Scotland."
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line (3), leave out ("or Northern Ireland,") and insert:
("(4) This Act, except so much thereof as amends Part II of the Administration of Justice Act, 1920, shall not apply to Northern Ireland.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE:
Part I.
Amendments of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925.

Enactment amended.

Amendment.

Section 161—In subsection (5), after the word "whether" there shall be inserted the words "the testator or"
Section 171—There shall be inserted at the end thereof the words "or (subject to the approval of the principal
914
probate registrar) from the principal probate registry in any case where the will was proved in or the grant was issued from a district probate registry."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after the reference to Section 161, to insert:—
"Section 167—In subsection (4) there shall be substituted for the words 'is assigned in pursuance of the order' the words 'ordered to be assigned,' and there shall be inserted after the word 'entitled' the words 'by virtue of the order.'"
The noble and learned Lord said: This is purely consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 34, at end insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to omit the reference in the second column to Section 171 and to insert the following:—
"For the words from 'obtained' to the end of the section there shall be substituted the following:

'(a) from the registry in which the will or documents relating to the grant are preserved; or

(b) where the will or other document is preserved in some place other than a registry, from the principal probate registry; or

(c) subject to the approval of the principal probate registrar, from the principal probate registry in any case in which the will was proved in or the grant was issued from a district, probate registry.'"

The noble and learned Lord said: This is practically a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, in the second column, leave out lines 3 to 9 and insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, in the absence of the noble and learned Earl, Lord Birkenhead, I am moving the

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Third Reading of this Bill. In doing so it will be convenient, I think, if I state at once a matter which will shorten discussion. Your Lordships will remember that both on the Second Reading and on the Committee stage the discussion on the Bill centred almost entirely upon Clause 4 of the Bill, a clause which gave power in certain events for a decision to be obtained from the High Court upon questions of rating law. I have to inform your Lordships that, in view of certain considerations, which I am bound to mention, the Government have authorised me to say that we do not propose to press for that clause remaining part of the Bill. In making that statement, your Lordships, I know, will be indulgent with me if I explain in a few sentences why it is that we have reached that decision, because it would not be right. I think, that any impression should be left that because we have adopted that course the Government recognise that they have been guilty of some of the dire offences which the noble and learned Lords, Lords Merrivale and Hanworth, and I think others of your Lordships suggest. We were told in the earlier discussions that there was some hidden hand which was responsible for some dark conspiracy under which the jurisdiction of the High Court was going, to be ousted and under which the Judiciary were to be made the hand-maids of the Executive. I should like to assure your Lordships at once that those suggestions, so far as the Government are concerned, are certainly not the intention with which the clause was inserted and, in our view, they are certainly not the effect which the clause would have.
As your Lordships may know, under the Act of 1925 a Committee was set up called the Central Valuation Committee, whose duty it is to advise upon certain points of rating law, since one of the purposes of the Act of 1925 was to ensure uniformity in that law. In the course of the performance of that duty they have published from time to time decisions, or rather advice, as to the view they have formed: but they have discovered that there are in the law of rating certain matters which are certainly obscure and with regard to which the practice in different parts of the country has not been uniform. After taking the best advice they were able to obtain, they have felt bound to say that the points
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to which I refer are points of difficulty and doubt upon which it is not possible for them to express a confident opinion until the matters have been judicially determined.
In those circumstances it was the Central Valuation Committee, and no one else, who were anxious that a speedy and inexpensive means should be provided of obtaining the judicial decision which would guide rating authorities all over the country upon matters of general importance which, without that decision, would remain in doubt and with regard to which no one ratepayer had sufficient interest probably to incur the expense or the risk of fighting the case up to the High Court with the possibility of being taken even to your Lordships' House, and which, therefore, was a point as to which there was no prospect of obtaining any certain decision. It was thought by that Committee to be eminently desirable that power should exist, when the Minister of Health was satisfied that such a point had arisen, to obtain from the High Court of Justice after argument in open Court by parties representing both points of view, the ratepayer and the rating authorities respectively, a decision which would determine the particular question and ensure that uniformity without inflicting the penalty and the risk of expense upon any individual ratepayer. It was with that purpose that the clause was inserted.
I confess it does not seem to me that the provision can fairly be described as one which made the Judiciary subject to or the advisers of the Executive. The hearing would be in Court. Argument would be presented by both sides. And although it is true that the interests of individual ratepayers would be affected by a decision to which they were not parties, that is true of every decision which is given in the High Court I have to-day been hearing in the Privy Council a case raising difficult and important questions as to the liberty of the subject. We shall pronounce a decision which will not bind because it is a decision of the Privy Council, but which will probably guide all the tribunals in the country upon that point and will, therefore, in a sense affect, perhaps, the rights of the subject on a writ of habeas corpus for all time to come. Similarly, any decision which is given by the Court is given without any one

917
excepting the parties knowing that the point is being argued, and without any opportunity to anyone else to intervene and submit his point of view. Yet the decision, once given, remains binding upon the whole country and remains an authority which guides all Courts of co-ordinate or inferior jurisdiction.
It is not, however, for that reason that we have thought it right to drop the clause. But it has seemed to us that there is another matter which is to be considered. Not only is it important that the Judiciary should be independent of the Executive, but it is also of vital importance that the public should be satisfied that the Judiciary and the Executive are independent. We have thought that the undoubted fact that members of your Lordships' House occupying high judicial positions have seriously and sincerely believed that this principle of independence was being infringed, necessarily must arouse doubt and distrust in the public mind and that it was far better that we should abandon the effort to obtain a power of this kind than that we should run any risk of an impression being created, rightly or wrongly, in the minds of the public that there was any connection being established between the Executive and the Judiciary and any infringment of that independence of the Judiciary which is the palladium of the liberty of the subject.
In those circumstances, while from some points of view we regret the decision to which we have been obliged to come, the Minister of Health has authorised me to take such course as I think right to take in all the circumstances, and I have taken the responsibility, as in a sense combining the Judiciary and the Executive, of saying that the Government will not proceed with this clause and will ask the assent of the House that it should be dropped. With those words of explanation, I do not think it is necessary for me to discuss the merits of the other clauses of the Bill because they have not excited any general discussion and they have been considered, of course, already by your Lordships. All I need do, I think, is formally to move the Third Beading and inform your Lordships that when the Amendment which stands in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell
918
[to omit Clause 4] is reached, the Government propose to ask your Lordships to assent to it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, the Lord Chancellor has excellently acquitted himself of the dark suspicion of conspiracy which has been mooted against him and the Government. I never believed in that conspiracy, nor did I believe in the machinery which was supposed to have brought about the present situation. But what I did suspect and what I see very clearly now is the zeal of an administrative body who thought: "Here is the most convenient way of solving all our doubts; we will pass a clause making I he Judges a sort of general legal advisers of the Government on abstract principles and will go to them and get rulings which will be of high authority." I do not believe those rulings would have that high authority. I do not believe they ever would have been recognised as equivalent to judgments of the Courts. Therefore, I think it was a very poor piece of machinery even had it passed But now the Lord Chancellor has spoken, as I say, excellently, for he is not only proposing to withdraw a clause which caused many of in; a great deal of anxiety and caused a great deal of dislike to it on the part of people outside, but he has also emphasised that most important principle that the Judiciary in this country should stand between the subject and the Crown and should be the protectors of the subject in matters in which claims may be made, which may or may not be right but which ought to be adjudicated upon by an absolutely independent and fearless body. I think the course taken is a step in strengthening that which is a fundamental principle of this country, a principle which ought to be departed from in the way of seeking to substitute anything for the ordinary litigation of the country only very sparingly, and I congratulate the Government on having taken a wise decision, although somewhat late in the day.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, if I may be permitted three or four sentences I shall not exceed that length of speech. I am so gratified by what I think the

919
wise decision of His Majesty's Government upon a question which I thought affected most gravely some of our higher public interests that I do not propose to spend one minute, or any part of a minute, in discussing the method by which His Majesty's Government have arrived at that wise decision. I cannot help thinking if my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack had been in a position to address his mind to the arguments relating to this matter on the several occasions upon which the objections which he now appreciates were impressed upon the Government without any effect, the House would have been spared the discussions, somewhat disagreeable to some of us who felt bound to take part in them, which the House had to listen to upon the Second Reading and in the Committee stage.
LORD HANWORTH: My Lords, as the learned Lord Chancellor was good enough to refer to my opposition to this clause, perhaps you will allow me to express my gratitude to him for having dropped it. My gratitude is of such a generous nature that I am not at all inclined to discuss the question whence the temptation came under which the Government fell, "if ever, in temptation strong, they left the right path for the wrong." We may leave it at that. It may be that the temptation came from the Central Committee. I care not. But the temptation came, and they now see that it was a temptation and they have gone back to the right path. I am not speaking for myself alone, for I have had an opportunity of speaking to a great number of Judges on whom would have been laid the task of responding to this irksome and, as I think, dangerous duty. Speaking for them I know they will be very gratified indeed to think that this clause has been dropped.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I also am very glad that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has taken the course indicated, which is a very wise course, inasmuch as this clause dealt with a very important question of principle—a principle of far greater interest and importance than any that is involved in the Bill we are considering. I agree with what was said by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane. For the rest I myself feel that we are indebted to Lord Merrivale and those
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associated with him, who took the opportunity not only of bringing this matter before us but of enforcing it at every possible opportunity. I will only add that I congratulate the Government on a very important decision, one which affects every citizen in this country.
LORD HEWART: My Lords, may I in a word or two join in the thanks which are being offered to the Lord Chancellor for the wise withdrawal of this clause. In the events which have happened it is not necessary that I should refer even in a word to the feelings which the clause excited in the minds of His Majesty's Judges of the King's Bench Division. It was without exception the worst clause of its kind which has ever appeared. I say that having in mind Section 29 of the Local Government Act of 1888, and Section 70 of the Local Government Act of 1894. The first of those sections led to two abortive cases which were afterwards overruled. This was a proposal to convert His Majesty's Judges into departmental solicitors. I am glad that the proposal has been withdrawn, and as it has been withdrawn I would venture to hope that the Lord Chancellor may now turn his mind to the many cases in the past—I hope there are not going to be many eases in the future—in which a different method is employed, I do not say by a hidden hand, but by what is obviously a concerted endeavour to subtract from the Law Courts important decisions, and to get those decisions made, behind the backs of the parties interested, by a Department or a Departmental Committee. I join in the congratulations which have been offered, and in the circumstances refrain from saying much that otherwise I should have had to say.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not intend to take part in a debate which has been entirely confined up to now to lawyers except to say that I do think lawyers might sometimes consider the interest, of suitors. Here is a provision put into the Bill with the object of saving expense to unfortunate ratepayers, and the only thing which the great lawyers can think of is whether some special theory of law and of administration is complied with, and they do not think of those interests which

921
are so acutely felt by the suitors. I do not contend for a moment that the noble and learned Lords are not right in their contention. They probably are. They know far more about it than I do, but I do say it is a most singular circumstance how very difficult it is for poor people to get justice in this country because they cannot really afford it on account of the enormous expense. The expense is growing every day, and the result is, I am quite sure, that there is a great failure of justice to the suitor. Whether that is unavoidable I cannot say. It may be so, but I do wish when great Judges address themselves to your Lordships on this subject, that they would take into consideration that, side of the case.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, since it appears to have been decided to take the discussion now it would perhaps be more convenient if I said now what I had intended to say when I move the omission of the clause. I am very grateful, as I am sure the whole House is, to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for the withdrawal of this clause. It was a case where, I think it is not, incorrect to say, practically the entire feeling of the House was against the clause because there were great dangers involved. It is possible that on a fight the Opposition would have succeeded this afternoon, but it is infinitely preferable that the Government should have withdrawn the clause voluntarily and that, in addition, they should have recognised what I regard as the most important principle underlying this matter, and that is the mixing of the Judiciary and the Executive, or, as the noble and learned Lord has said even the apparent mixing of the Judiciary and the Executive.
I think the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was perhaps a little hard upon lawyers. All those in this House who occupy distinguished judicial positions have at one time or another had clients, and many clients, who were suitors, and they are quite accustomed to considering the interests of suitors. It is not a fact that they lose sight of the interests of suitors, but they are inclined to think, with their experience, that a clause of this sort does not ultimately make for their interest, and that
922
the difficulties which it involves are really greater than the problem which it solves. I should like to repeat what I said when I attacked this clause. I have very great sympathy with the desire to obtain some sort of binding and useful decision for the purpose of producing uniformity and, if the Government can think out some way of doing it that would be satisfactory, I need hardly say I should be the first to support them. I am as anxious as the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) that that should be done, but I do not think this is the way to do it, and I think it would be a little difficult to devise. One knows the difficulties and if it can be done by all means let it be done. Do not let the noble Marquess suppose, as I am sure he does not, that those who oppose the clause are without sympathy with what was in the mind of those who originally framed it. I do not think it is necessary to say more than again to express pleasure that the Government have seen their way to omit the clause in response to what was obviously the feeling of the House.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I am one of those who on the Committee stage of this Bill put down an Amendment that this Clause 4 should be omitted. I had intended to propose alternative words, but, as your Lordships are aware, the debate was confined to the question whether Clause 4 should stand part of the Bill. I was quite ready to have it amended, but Clause 4, as it stands in the Bill, would never have done. I looked upon it at the time, and I look upon it at this moment, as a very mischievous clause and I am very glad to hear that the Government have withdrawn it.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I would not have said a word in this debate had it not been for the reproach which the noble Marquess the Leader of the House levelled against the Judges. I have taken no part whatever in regard to the resistance of this clause, though I quite understand why it was that those who opposed it did so. I desire now only to say that my objection to it was this: that it tended very much to destroy that trust, in His Majesty's Judges which is felt when they come into any kind of

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relation with litigants or possible litigants in their Courts. Ever since the Act of Settlement put the Judges into that independent position which they have ever since occupied they have been trusted by the whole of His Majesty's subjects. I do not think any one who has not been a Judge, as I long was, can realise how complete is the confidence of ordinary people in the absolute independence of His Majesty's Judges and in their certainty that the Judges do sympathise with their position, do feel for them as litigants, and that they have, ever since the Act of Settlement at all events, been determined that whether against the Crown or any other powerful person, the poorest, the humblest, and the weakest of His Majesty's subjects shall receive help from His Majesty's Judges.
Therefore I think that it did require that some one who has occupied that position should say that it is a delusion to suppose that His Majesty's Judges have not as much sympathy with the people who come before them as have the Ministers or Departments of State. This was resisted, I am certain, by the Judges who have spoken because they felt that it would have led to a diminution of that trust in His Majesty's Judges which has been their proud possession now for many centuries, and if it had not been that a word had been said against them by the Leader of the House, which I think regrettable, I would not have troubled your Lordships with a single observation.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 1:
Application of s. 24 of principal Act to London.
1.—(1) Section twenty-four of the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925 (in this Act referred to as "the principal Act"), which provides for the valuation of hereditaments containing machinery and plant, and any order made by the Minister of Health thereunder shall apply for the purpose of the making or revision of valuation lists under the Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869, as they apply for the purpose of the making or revision of valuation lists under the principal Act.
(2) If and so far as, regard being had to the extent, if any, to which in the making of any valuation list in force at the commencement of this Act account was taken of any plant or machinery in or on any
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hereditament, the application of the said section and order affects the value of that hereditament as appearing in the valuation list, effect shall be given to such alteration in value in the supplemental list which is to come into operation on the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine, or if the authority concerned think fit, in a provisional list made before the said date:
Provided that any such provisional list shall, for the purpose of giving effect to any such alteration, have operation from that date only (and not from any earlier date on which a copy of the list is served on the occupier of the hereditament), but for the purposes of paragraph (1) of section forty-six of the Act, of 1869 alterations shown in any such provisional list shall be deemed to have taken place during the twelve months preceding the said sixth day of April.
EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to add to the clause:—
"Provided that the overseers shall serve upon the occupier of every hereditament affected by such alteration in value the notice required by Section 9 of the Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869, notwithstanding the fact that the gross or rateable value of such hereditament may not be raised by reason of such alteration."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Amendment which I have put on the Paper has none of the interest which attaches to the Amendment which your Lordships have been discussing. It concerns no matter of principle but a very small matter of detail. I am not sure that the words which I move to insert are the best words which would carry out the object I have in mind, but those of your Lordships who have followed the proceedings on this Bill will realise that the object of Clause 1 is to extend to London the provisions with regard to the rating of machinery which a recent Act applied to the rest of the country. This can be done in two ways, either by supplemental valuation or by provisional valuation. If it is done by provisional valuation then notice has to be served upon everybody concerned in the case of a decrease of any valuation. If, on the other hand, it is done by supplemental valuation, then no notice need be served upon the various people concerned.
It may be that they find that their machinery is valued at something less. It may be only £1 less when they thought it ought to be £50 less. I take that as an example. The local authority is not hound, if it proceeds by this method of

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supplemental valuation, to make any communication at all to the people affected. Therefore, unless they go to the church door and look there, they will be unaware that they are being affected at all. It would, therefore, I think be very much more convenient if the local authority were obliged to make a communication to people who are in any way affected at all. After all it is not an unreasonable request, I think, that people who are affected, whether by increase or decrease in valuations, should be made aware of what is being done in regard to their properties. I confess, as I said earlier, that I do not feel sure that my own words are the best, and if there is in any quarter of the House a desire that they should be altered I shall be only too willing to agree.
There is another form of words which I would venture to read as follows:—
"Provided that the authority concerned shall serve upon the occupier of every hereditament affected by such alteration in value the notice required by Section 9 of the Valuation (Metropolis) Act, 1869, notwithstanding the fact that the gross or rateable value of such hereditament may not be raised by reason of such alteration."
Your Lordships will see that the effect of the Amendment put in that way would be to bring it more into line with other legislation. Therefore, it may be preferable, but the matter is so technical that I should not like to express an opinion as to which may be the better. In order to put myself in order, however, I will move my Amendment in the form in which it stands on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, at end insert the said proviso.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I hope that this Amendment will not be pressed too far, because, although I sympathise with its object, I venture to think it may not have quite the result which is desired. As the noble Earl has pointed out, the object of Clause 1 is to ensure that ratepayers in the Metropolis shall have the benefits of the relief afforded to machinery in the year 1929 instead of in the year 1931, which would otherwise, apart from this clause, have been the earliest date. It might well have been thought right to provide that those ratepayers who have machinery and who thought they were entitled to relief by virtue of these provisions should
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give notice to the local authorities. That, of course, has not been adopted. Instead of that the burden has been placed upon local authorities of preparing supplemental or provisional lists in which the reduction shall be inserted. If the local authorities proceed by means of supplemental lists they will have to get the supplemental lists out by June 1, so that the time available to them for the preparation of these lists is very limited. Of course, when a supplemental list is published not only has public notice to be given but it has to be posted at any rate at churches and chapels, so that everybody may have an opportunity of seeing it. The noble Earl suggests that unless notice is given to every individual whose machinery is affected there may be people who get an inadequate reduction and who will not know anything about it.
I venture to think that if this Amendment were accepted there would be a grave danger, because the owners of machinery would then rely no doubt upon geting a notice of a reduction in order that they might, see whether it was adequate, and if it so happened that they were left cut altogether, which is a much graver matter than being put in at an inadequate figure, they would find that they had not had any notice of the fact that their names had been omitted until it was too late, and the result would be that they would have been misled into a false sense of security. Time, as I have said, is very short for local authorities, and the provision that we are making in the Bill as it stands is the provision that for nearly sixty years has been the provision applicable to supplemental lists. I venture to think, therefore, that it is not unreasonable that we should continue the same procedure in this case, especially as, if we were to insist upon the individual notice being given, we should not only put a heavy burden on the local authority but might also very easily cause considerable risk of the individual ratepayer being misled.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I heartily agree with the remarks of the noble and learned Lord that the Amendment would introduce a system that might create difficulty. The procedure as regards supplemental lists is perfectly settled. If I understand the Bill aright, it says that these alterations in the

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rating of machinery may be made in the supplemental lists. I sincerely hope that the machinery that has been in operation since 1869 and that is familiar to all people who are interested in rating questions will not be altered.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, in view of what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack I will not press my Amendment, but I would ask whether he would object to the other form of words that I have suggested as an alternative and which is in entire harmony with the notice required by Section 9 of the Act of 1869 and makes its provisions apply to the present Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I properly understand the words which the noble Earl read to me—and I have not had an opportunity of looking at them—his Amendment appears merely to substitute "the authority concerned" for the overseers. I do not think that this would meet the point of difficulty that I found in accepting his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Decisions of doubtful points of law.
4.—(1) If on the representation of the Central Valuation Committee, made after
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consultation with such associations or bodies as appear to them to be concerned, it is made to appear to the Minister of Health that a substantial question of law has arisen in relation to the valuation of hereditaments or of any class of hereditaments for the purposes of rating and that, unless that question is authoritatively determined, want of uniformity or inequality in valuation may result, the Minister may submit the question to the High Court for its opinion thereon, and the High Court after hearing such parties as it thinks proper shall give its opinion on the question.
(2) The Central Valuation Committee may appear as parties on the hearing of any such case for the purpose of supporting any contention with respect to the question at issue and may, if they think fit so to do, contribute such amount as they think proper towards the costs of any persons appearing on the hearing for the purpose of supporting the contrary contention.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move to leave out Clause 4.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 4.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, with the Amendment, and returned to the Commons.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past five o'clock.

BARONIES OF MONTACUTE AND MONTHERMER.
Petition of William Selby-Loundes, praying that he may be allowed to refer in the evidence and in the printed case to the evidence which was taken in the years 1861 to 1864 in the claim of William Selby-Loundes of Whaddon to the Barony of Montacute and the claim of William Loundes of Chesham to the Barony of Monthermer, and also to the evidence which was taken in the claims of Edith Maud, Countess of Loudoun, and Elizabeth Frances, Viscountess St. Davids, to the Baronies of Botreaux, Hungerford, De Moleyns, Hastings, Strange of Knokin and Stanley, upon which resolutions and adjudications were made by this House on August 1, 1871, and December 17, 1920: Read, and ordered as prayed, subject to all just exceptions and a liberty to all concerned to take objections hereafter.
SHROPSHIRE, WORCESTERSHIRE AND STAFFORDSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

HARWICH HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Luton Extension).
Also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Great Western Railway (Swansea North Dock Abandonment).

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Oxford Corporation (Water, etc.).

Post Office (Sites).

London County Council (General Powers).

London County Council (Tramway Subway and Improvements).

London, Midland and Scottish Railway.

Middlesex and Surrey (Thames Bridges, etc.).

Weaver Navigation.

And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for the following Bill:—

London County Council (Ilford and Barking Drainage).

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

CLEETHORPES URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 21st of February and the 20th of March last discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next.
BOURNEMOUTH GAS AND WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 8th of March and the 29th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
DOVER HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 21st of February and the 20th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
WESSEX ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 23rd of February and the 28th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
SOUTHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Bradford Corporation Bill [H.L.] and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Southampton Corporation Bill [H.L.]: Read, and agreed to: All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.
BLACKPOOL EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Russell of Liverpool be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Glenarthur: Read, and agreed to.

HASTINGS CORPORATION BILL.
SANDOWN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
WEALD ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
BETHLEM HOSPITAL BILL. [H.L.]
LEEDS AND LIVERPOOL CANAL BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.

MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BILL.
Reported, without amendment.
SOUTH METROPOLITAN GAS BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment.
NEWQUAY WATER BILL.
Consent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales signified, and Bill reported with an Amendment.
DARTMOUTH CORPORATION BILL.
Consent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales signified, and Bill reported with Amendments.
OTLEY GAS ORDER, 1928.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, that they have received and considered a report from the Board of Trade upon the Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
HEMEL HEMPSTED DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1928.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Reported without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.