Sitting of 14 June 1928

Preamble
The Rouse met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Colne Valley Water Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Wey Valley Water Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Cleveland and Durham County Electric Power Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Southampton Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Weald Electricity Supply Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Chesterfield Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Bradford Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Pensions if he will issue instructions to the area officers that they shall inform every man in receipt of a life pension or a final award, which may or may not have terminated, who applies for treatment, of the procedure to be followed to obtain a new award under the Regulations for the correction of errors?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): No, Sir; the only question arising on such an application would be whether the applicant needs and is entitled to treatment. Any further question that might exceptionally arise as to the award does not depend upon any procedure on the part of the man.

  ARMS (SURRENDER AND SEIZURE, LONDON).
  Mr. DAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of revolvers, cartridges, and rounds of ammunition that have been seized in London by the Metropolitan Police during the last six months; and whether it is intended to introduce legislation increasing the penalties of persons found in the possession of firearms without a licence?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): Separate records are not kept of firearms and ammunition surrendered voluntarily, and firearms and ammunition seized. During the six months ended the 30th April, 1928, 451 pistols and revolvers and approximately 45,000 rounds of ammunition of all classes were surrendered to, or confiscated by, the Metropolitan Police. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
  Mr. DAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information to show where these arms and ammunition are going to?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If the hon. Member will put a question down, I shall probably he able to let him have the information. His present question is purely a statistical one.

  LICENSTNG STATISTICS.
  Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Home Secretary the number of liquor shops in England and Wales trading under an excise licence only on 1st January, 1921, and 1st January, 1928, respectively; and whether he intends introducing legislation to bring these shops under the full control of the Licensing Justices?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think the hon. Member refers to the facts which are recorded in Column 11 of the Annual Volume of Licensing Statistics. If so, the total figure on 1st January, 1921, was 793, and that on 1st January, 1927, is expected to be 1,343. The Volume for 1927 is at present in preparation, and will contain the latest figures available. The point involved is one that has been noted for consideration in any review of the licensing laws.

  PRISON SERVICE (HOSPITAL OFFICERS).
  Mr. ERNEST BROWNasked the Home Secretary the number of hospital officers, male and female, in the prison service; how many, in each case, are registered by the General Nursing Council as ordinary nurses or as mental nurses; and at what prisons, if any, are hospital principal officers appointed who have not qualified for State registration?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As the answer to this question contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the answer:
  There are 130 men hospital officers and 10 women hospital officers in the prison service; of the men, 38 are registered by the General Nursing Council as nurses, nine as mental nurses, and six are registered under both heads; none of the women are registered. There are, however, 33 fully trained women nurses employed in the prison service, all of whom are State registered, 31 being on the general register and two on the register of mental nurses.
  At the following prisons the hospital principal officer is not registered: Men: Birmingham, Brixton, Liverpool, Manchester, Parkhurst, Wandsworth, Wormwood Scrubs; Women: Liverpool, Manchester and Portland Borstal Institution.

  BORSTAL CAMPS.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary what is the
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  annual cost of the Borstal camps; how much of this is provided by the Treasury and how much by private charity; and when he proposes to place these camps on a non-charitable basis?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The cost, which varies slightly from year to year, was £485 3s. 5d. in 1927. In that year, as usual, certain rations were supplied from Borstal Institutions at the cost of public funds, which also paid £32 13s. 5d. in respect of rations purchased out of camp funds. Public funds, therefore, paid for all rations. The rest of the cost, namely, £452 10s. was defrayed by private subscription, and in present circumstances I would not feel justified in asking the Treasury to meet the whole cost of these camps from public funds.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: If it is a fact that these camps serve a very useful purpose, as I believe they do, surely this trifling sum of £450 might be provided by the Exchequer, and would not that be much more satisfactory than leaving these camps on a charitable basis?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not think so. That the camps are most useful is undoubtedly true, but I rather like to feel that the public are willing to subscribe, and take an interest in these lads.

  LOTTERIES.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the varying practice of the police in the matter of the sale of tickets in tombolas organised on behalf of charities, he will consider issuing for the assistance of the public and of the police a concise statement of the principles which guide his Department in deciding whether or not proceedings shall be taken in such cases?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Public lotteries are definitely illegal. The law does not discriminate between those promoted in aid of charity and other public lotteries, and I am afraid I cannot undertake to instruct the police to do so.
  Mr. R. MORRISON: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the recent case in which two of these events were organised in

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  the same town on a very large scale, and one was stopped by the police while the other was allowed to go on?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That case has been brought to my notice. Of course, it was not in the Metropolitan police district, but I am making inquiries into it.

  POLICE MAGISTRATES, LONDON.
  Mr. GROTRIANasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the number of London police magistrates now serving is two below the maximum fixed by statute; and whether he proposes to advise the increase of the number up to the maximum allowed?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: This matter was very carefully considered by me some time ago, and I have since been in consultation with the Treasury. I hope before long to be in a position to announce the decision reached.
  Mr. GROTRIAN: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that maximum was fixed nearly 100 years ago, that the work has increased enormously since, and also that these magistrates cannot, or, at least, do not, appoint deputies, and can only take their holidays by getting other magistrates to do their work?
  Sir W. JOYNSON- HICKS: The answer to all my hon. and learned Friend's questions is in the affirmative.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, at the same time, whether there might not usefully be fixed an age of compulsory retirement?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think there is one for those who are appointed at the present time or who have been appointed in recent years.

  UNSUCCESSFUL PROSECUTIONS (COMPENSATION).
  Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONEasked the Home Secretary whether, seeing that the grant of £500 made to Major Graham Bell Murray was made out of the Metropolitan police fund, and that such fund consists of annual Government grants
  1146
  and of the proceeds of a rate and of fines and fees, and is for the purpose of defraying police charges and expenses, he will say by what authority a grant ex gratia was made out of such fund?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: This grant was made as a police expense by my authority.
  Mr. MALONE: Are we to take it that there is statutory authority for a grant by the Home Secretary?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think so. At all events, I have made the grant, and, of course, it is open to the Public Accounts Committee to surcharge me if it is wrong.
  Mr. MALONE: In other similar cases, should the application be made to the Home Secretary?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Certainly.
  Mr. HAYES: Are there any precedents for such payments?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS
  Mr. JOHNSTON: If there are no precedents, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it highly desirable that he should create them?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have done so.

  SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA (RUSSIAN MONEY).
  The following question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON:
  "12. To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he intends to take following the Government Report respecting the receipt by banks in England of money from Soviet authorities for the use of the Communist party."
  Mr. RILEY: With regard to this question, may I ask whether it is proper to put down a question asserting that the Soviet authorities have sent money to the Communist party in this country?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I thought that that was what was announced the other day. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] An hon. Member who puts down a question takes the responsibility of asking it.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As I stated in reply to a supplementary question on Monday last, I accept the statement of the directors of the Moscow Narodny Bank that they were unaware of what was going on and I therefore do not propose to take any action against the bank. As regards the other persons concerned, I am consulting my legal advisers as to whether there is any offence which can be dealt with by criminal proceedings.
  Mr. RILEY: May I ask whether as a result of the recent inquiries no evidence at all was forthcoming that money was sent by the Soviet Government to the Soviet banks in this country for distribution among the Communist party?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is quite true, and it is fair to say that the connection between the Soviet Government and the Soviet banks here has not been established. I have not been able to find any channel through which this money passed, but the fact that the money is there and is being used is clearly evident.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: In view of the original answer of the right hon. Gentleman, may I ask how it was that he was led into making the statement, on a public platform, that these banks were being used in this way without any evidence in his possession?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. and gallant Member must not say "without evidence." I had a great deal of evidence in my hands long before the banks opened their books to me.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Was it not proved to be quite erroneous?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Not at all.
  Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: May I ask if it is proposed to proceed against anybody?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: In a matter of criminal procedings, I must be guided by my legal advisers, and I have referred the matter to them.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Does not the reply of the right hon. Gentleman entirely remove the inference in the question, that these banks were really and knowingly using that money for the purpose of subsidising the Communist party?

  POLICE INVESTIGATIONS (DICTAPHONES).
  Sir FRANK SANDERSONasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the adoption of dictaphones in all cases where private inquiries are held by the police of which a record has to be kept, with a view to preventing subsequent controversy arising as to what has or has not been said at such inquiries by the respective parties?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I note the suggestion, but the general question of the mode of making such inquires is proposed to be investigated, and I cannot anticipate the conclusions.

  PUBLIC HEALTH.

    DR. VORONOFF'S TREATMENT.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Home Secretary if a permit has been given to Dr. Voronoff to visit this country; if so, for what period is it available; and if such permit would allow him to carry out experiments of the nature of grafting on human beings?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Dr. Voronoff was given leave to land in the United Kingdom on 22nd May, and no time limit was imposed. His object was to give certain lectures at Cambridge University and elsewhere, but no licence of any kind has been given him to experiment in this country.
    Mr. BRIANT: Can he operate experimentally without a licence? The British public is extremely anxious to know that he shall not have the opportunity of conducting these dangerous and disgusting operations, which include the transfer of the organs of propagation from an ape to a woman.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Of course, it is quite impossible that he can conduct any experiments involving vivisection or cutting operations on any animal without a licence, and that licence I have not granted, and do not propose to grant.
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Is not a human being an exception, and may he not offer himself for experiment if he likes?
    Mr. RADFORD: Would it be possible for some other licensed person to make the operation on the animal, and leave

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    Dr. Voronoff to make the completion of the experiment on a human being; and does not my right hon. Friend think it a violation of everything that is decent in our Constitution that this man should be allowed to conduct such experiments in this country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: My hon. Friend is really not right. No such experiments are conducted in this country at all, and the suggestion that it would be possible to have another operator who has a licence would not work, because I am most careful to inquire as to the nature of the operations conducted under a licence.

    TUBERCULOSIS AND ANÆMIA (CHILDREN).
    Mr. CONNOLLYasked the Minister of Health whether he can give figures as to the proportion of children suffering from tuberculosis, anæmia and glandular trouble at some recent convenient date, and at the corresponding date at intervals of two years, during the last 20 years; and what steps he proposes to take to investigate the extent to which these conditions are due to the want of proper and sufficient food?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Chamberlain): As regards the first part of the question, I am having a statement prepared giving such information as is available, which I will send to the hon. Member as soon as possible. As regards the second part of the question, while adequate nutrition is an important factor in increasing resistance to disease, there are many other factors which may contribute to the conditions named, and I do not consider that an investigation would serve any useful purposes.

    TEXTILE FACTORIES (TWO-SHIFT SYSTEM).
    Mr. RILEYasked the Home Secretary the names of the seven textile firms in the West Riding of Yorkshire to whom permits have been given to employ young persons on the two-shift system, and the number of young persons covered by the permit in each case; and whether the consent of the workpeople was obtained before permits were granted?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As the answer to this question is an elaborate one, giving full details, I will, with the
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    hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. RILEY: Is it not a condition of granting these Orders that the consent of the workmen or their organisation should be obtained, and has such consent been obtained in these eases?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The consent of the majority of the workpeople concerned was obtained in each case before the Order was granted.
    Following is the answer:
    The following are the names:—

    British Belting and Asbestos Company Limited, Cleckheaton.

    Smith, Bulmer and Company Limited, Holmfield, Halifax.

    C. F. Taylor and Company Limited, Shipley.

    Hutton, King and Company, Bingley.

    Z. Hinchliffe and Sons, Denby Dale. Brysilka Limited, Apperley Bridge. Stephenson and Milne, Leeds.

    The Orders do not limit the number of young persons who may be employed under them, but the numbers which the firms proposed to employ at the time they applied for permission, were respectively as follows:—

    40, 4, 160, 5, 100, 6, 4.

    As required by the Act, the consent of the majority of the workpeople concerned was obtained in each case before the Order was granted.

    EDUCATION (INFANTS' DEPARTMENTS).
    Mr. MALONEasked the President of the Board of Education with regard to the 900 infants' departments closed in the last three years, what is the reason of their closing; how many infants were in the departments and of what age; and how the infants and the teachers in the departments closed were dealt with?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy): The suggestion that 900 infants' departments have been closed during the last three years is not in accordance with the information in my possession. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures showing the numbers of such

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    departments closed or amalgamated with other departments (including infants' departments) during the last three years, and also the numbers opened during the same period; but I am afraid that I could not, without the expenditure of a disproportionate amount of time and

    1925–26.

    1926–27.

    1927–28.

    1. Number of infants' schools and departments closed, including departments closed as a result of the closure of the school of which they formed part.

    25

    34

    26

    2. Number of infants' schools or departments merged into or combined with other schools or with departments (inclusive of infants' departments) of other schools.

    80

    79

    129

    3. Number of new infants' schools or departments opened, in-luding infants' departments formed as a result of the re-organisation of schools.

    25

    33

    57

  HOUSING.

    SLUM CLEARANCE.
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Health how many schemes for the purpose of slum clearance are now in operation in Great Britain; how many of these have been authorised; and the number of houses and families, and the total number of persons, who will be affected?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: One hundred and thirteen slum clearance schemes, affecting approximately 14,000 properties, have been confirmed since 1919 in respect of areas in England and Wales. The number of persons required to be rehoused under these schemes is 66,968. The available statistics do not show how many families are involved. With regard to Scotland, I would suggest that the hon. Member should address a similar question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

    CONTRACT PRICES.
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Minister of Health if he will consider the publication from time to time of housing costs in different parts of the country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Information is published from time to time of the general average prices of houses. I am of opinion, however, that the publication of prices in respect of individual districts
    labour, supply the information asked for in the last two parts of the question.
    Mr. MALONE: Is the Noble Lord satisfied that adequate provision is being made for infants?
    Lord E. PERCY: Yes, certainly.
    Following are the figures:
    would be misleading in view of the many variable factors, such as size of house, building costs in different districts, nature of site, and standards of construction and amenity.
    Mr. WELLOCK: Is it not the case that the differences in price under similar conditions are so plain that publication would enable the public to get at the causes of the differences?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not at all sure that publication would have a good effect on prices.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the discrepancy in the estimates frequently made by officials of local authorities and the tenders which have been put in by outside contractors, and has he made any inquiry to see whether the discrepancy is due to some collusion in tendering between outside contractors?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has not been called to it.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: If I bring to the right hon. Gentleman's attention certain cases where the discrepancy exists, will he make some effective inquiry to see if the evil cannot be overcome?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will certainly consider any representations the hon. and gallant Gentleman likes to make.
    Mr. AUSTIN HOPKINSON: Is it not a fact that where direct labour is employed by local authorities a large amount of preparatory clerical work which ought to be charged to the cost of building is charged to general account?

    BUILDING MATERIALS.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Minister of Health if it is the custom of his Department to prescribe any policy as regard the preferential use of British or foreign building material in the construction of subsidy houses; and whether, in that case, he will state what it is?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Section 10 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, provides that, in approving proposals for the construction of houses, the Minister of Health shall not impose any conditions which would prevent the materials required being purchased in the cheapest market at home or abroad. The Government have, however, urged local authorities to arrange that all contracts for or incidental to works carried out by them should, in the absence of special circumstances, be placed in this country.

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Sir FRANK NELSONasked the Minister of Health when an announcement will be made in regard to the continuance or otherwise of the existing Rent Restriction Acts?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I regret that I am not yet in a position to say when it will be possible to make an announcement.
    Sir F. NELSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give me any information when we shall have a statement—either in this administration or in the next Conservative administration?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I shall probably be able to make an announcement before the end of the Session.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. CAMPBELL (for Rear-Admiral BEAMISH)asked the Minister of Health the total number of houses that have been erected by municipal authorities since the end of the War and the percentage of A 2, A 3, B 3, and B 4 types, respectively?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Up to the 1st May, 1928, 415,719 houses had been erected since the Armistice by local authorities in England and Wales under the various subsidy schemes. Information as to the last part of the question is not available.

  POOR LAW.

    CASUAL WARDS (SMALL-POX).
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Health what reply his Department has made to representations from boards of guardians in Great Britain requesting that casual wards should be closed for a period of 21 days as a means Of checking the spread of small-pox by persons wandering over the country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of such a reply.
    Mr. DAY: How many boards of guardians have made this request?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I must have notice of that question.

    CHILDREN IN WORKHOUSES
    Mr. CONNOLLYasked the Minister of Health how many children were in the workhouses of England and Wales on 1st January, 1928, or any other convenient date, who were over the age of three and had been there for over six weeks?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The exact information for which the hon. Member asks is not available. The number of children in England and Wales not suffering from sickness, accident or bodily or mental infirmity, between three and 16 years of age, who, on 1st January, 1928, had been in wards other than sick wards of general Poor Law institutions administered under the Poor Law Institutions Order, 1913, for longer than six weeks, was 890.
    Mr. CONNOLLY: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the figures for the South-Western District of England, where the position it very bad in this respect?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Probably the explanation is that it is rather difficult to find alternative accommodation. The hon. Member can rest assured that I am always putting pressure upon those responsible to do what they can to remove it.

    LAMBETH HOSPITAL (SEPARATION WARDS).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Health if he has yet received any definite information as to the provision of separation wards in Lambeth Hospital?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed that a scheme has now been prepared and is being considered by the Guardians.

    RATING RELIEF (SLATE QUARRIES AND MINES).
    Major OWENasked the Minister of Health whether slate quarries and slate mines are included in the category of productive industries under the terms of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I may refer the hon. and gallant Member to Clause 3 of the Bill, under which industrial hereditaments are classified under mines and factories and workshops. The expression "mine" includes all mines of whatever description, and under the Factory and Workshops Act all quarries are factories or workshops.

    THAMES WALL, GROSVENOR ROAD.
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the delay in rebuilding the Thames wall in Grosvenor Road; and will he convene a conference of the authorities concerned in order that the work may proceed without unnecessary delay?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed that there is no avoidable delay in this matter, that an extensive survey of the works below the road level is essential, and is being made, before it can be decided what new works are required, and that much of the survey can be done only at low tide. I am assured that the wall as it is now is quite safe.
    Mr. DAY: If it is quite safe, is it necessary to keep the sand-bags there?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There is no particular reason for taking them away.

    CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the mother of a child who has reached 14 years
    1156
    of age is deprived of its allowance under the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act although the child has been for some years excluded from school owing to its mental condition; and whether he is prepared to amend the Act so that a child who is medically certified as mentally deficient can continue to receive the benefit of the allowance beyond the age of 14 years?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I would point out that an Amendment which would have secured what is now proposed was negatived when the Bill was in Committee, and I remain of the opinion that it would not be appropriate to make specific provision for this exceptional class in the contributory pensions scheme.

    MILLING BARLEY (SULPHUR DIOXIDE).
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health if he has received a communication from Messrs. James Proctor and Sons, Limited, barley millers, Liverpool, offering documentary evidence that the Ministry of Health (Food Preservatives) Regulations, in their application to the use of sulphur dioxide in the bleaching and preserving of barley, has completely stopped their trade and that their previous buyers have placed their orders with foreign firms; and is he aware that regulations prohibiting the use of sulphur dioxide in the milling of barley were at one time enforced in Germany and America, and in both countries have had to be withdrawn because of their impracticability; and will he be prepared to meet a deputation of millers to discuss the effects of these Regulations on the barley milling trade in England and Scotland?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have received the communication referred to in the first part of the question. I am aware that the use of sulphur dioxide in the milling of barley is at present permitted in Germany and the United States of America, but I have no information to show that the prohibition of its use in those countries was attempted and abandoned because it is impracticable. The fact that exporters of barley to this

    1157
    country are able to comply with our Regulations scarcely bears cut that suggestion. As regards the last, part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that two deputations from the barley trade have already been received and that full consideration has been given to their representations. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by the reception of a third deputation.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Were these deputations received by the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, or merely by officials of his Department?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have received so many deputations that I do not really recollect who received them.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept it from me that it was his officials?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Very likely.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Under the circumstances, will the Minister be prepared to meet a deputation, instead of leaving it to the officials, against whom they have no complaint?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The fact that the deputations were received by the officials of the Department does not mean that the representations made to them did not come to my personal notice. They did, and I have gone into the question. It is because I do not think that I am likely to change my mini that I say I do not think there will be any useful purpose in receiving another deputation.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: In view of the new facts that have arisen, showing that it is detrimental to our trade, will not the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to meet a deputation?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know that there are any new facts. I am not aware of any.
    Mr. E. BROWN: If the right hon. Gentleman is not willing to receive a deputation, will he consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland as to representations being made to him by Scottish bodies on the subject?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that would serve any useful purpose either.

  FINANCE BILL.

    OILS IMPORT DUTY.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the fact that a man with two second-hand lorries engaged in the transport of live stock and goods has had to pay on an average 27s. a week for Petrol Tax; and if he will consider the abolition of the tax on petrol used for commercial purposes?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I regret that I cannot see my way to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion, which would entail the reduction of the yield of the duty by about two-thirds.
    Mrs. RUNCIMANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the fact that large numbers of the inshore fishermen round the coast of Britain use petrol and not kerosene in their motor fishing boats; and whether, seeing that Notice 171 concerning the Hydrocarbon Oil Duty of 1928 provided for a rebate for fishermen and that the subsequent Notice 171 a withdrew the rebate, he will consider the exemption of the fishing industry from the Petrol Duty when petrol is used for the purpose of fishing?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: My information is not in accordance with the suggestion in the first part of the question. As regards the rest of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answers I gave on the 12th June to questions on the subject asked by the hon. Members for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) and Lowestoft (Mr. Rentoul).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give any approximate figures of the annual consumption of kerosene and petrol, respectively, by British fishing vessels; and any estimate of the tax which will be levied under the new petrol duties on the fishing industry in respect of vessels used for fishing in a full year?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I regret that I am unable to give the figures for which the hon. and gallant Member asks, but I am satisfied that the quantity of petrol used in the fishing industry is very small in relation to the quantity of kerosene, which is duty-free.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is possible before the discussion on the Finance Bill is resumed for this information to be obtained from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries or from the Board of Trade, as the House should have this information in view of the interests concerned?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think this matter had better be reserved for discussion on the Bill.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The right hon. Gentleman has sources of information which are not open to the ordinary Members of the House, and I am sure that it will be well for us to have the information.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am advised that it is very difficult to get the actual details.
    Mr. MACLEAN: The right hon. Gentleman's reply now states that it is difficult to obtain details of the quantities of kerosene that are used. How, therefore, has he good ground for refusing this concession?
    Mr. E. BROWN: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken the trouble to verify the fact that since his answer on the 12th June this will affect 2,000 motor fishing vessels in England and Wales and another 2,000 in Scotland, and ought we not to have these figures in order to debate the question adequately when it comes up again?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am advised that the amount will not be appreciable. That is what I am advised, and that is the decision on which I rest pending rebuttal by competent persons in the course of the later Debates which no doubt we shall have.
    Mr. BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while it is true that most of these boats use petrol with which to start their engines and that kerosene is used for driving, when engines fail and when there is difficulty with the engines, they have to revert to the use of petrol with which to run them?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman obtain information from the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries which will show that a large number of
    1160
    the engines fitted in the inshore fishing boats—what is the exact number no one can tell—are for the use of petrol and not for the use of kerosene, which he himself pointed out to the House does damage to certain types of motor engines?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that this had much better be debated on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.

    CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES (INCOME TAX).
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that co-operative and registered societies obtain exemption from tax under Schedules C and D if they sell to persons not members thereof and the number of its shares is limited by its rules or practice; and if he will state under what authority such exemption is allowed?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Under the provisions of Section 39 (4) of the Income Tax Act, 1918, a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, is entitled to exemption from tax under Schedules C and D, unless it sells to persons not members thereof, and unless the number of its shares is limited by its rules or practice. I am not aware that those provisions have been applied to any society in whose case the statutory requirements are not met, but if my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind any such case and will let me have the necessary particulars, I will gladly have the matter investigated and will communicate the result to him in due course.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is it not generally the practice of co-operative societies to sell to non-members as well as members, giving coupons which entitle them, if they wish, to become members after six months?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I can add nothing to the answer I gave, conveying an intimation to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I will consider any case that he has in mind.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Is it not a fact that repeated inquiries have shown that on the whole turnover of hundreds of millions of pounds sterling the trade with non-members is infinitesimal?
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: If that be so, they do trade with non-members.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that this is so infinitesimal that, if any

    1161
    attempt were made to impose taxation, the amount would be so small that it would not pay for the cost of collection.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is debating the question.

    ESTATE DUTY.
    Sir MERVYN MANNINGHAMBULLERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that His Majesty's Commissioners of Inland Revenue are claiming that Sections 34 and 35 of the Law of Property Act, 1925, have converted into personal estate property conveyed to two persons as tenants in common which for estate duty purposes was previously treated as real estate; whether he is aware that under this ruling His Majesty's Commissioners are insisting upon immediate payment of duty without any right to pay by instalments; and whether, as it was not intended to increase the incidence of estate duty by the Law of Property Act, 1925, he will give instructions that the claim for duty shall not be persisted in, and will introduce an Amendment to the Finance Bill so that in the future claims of this nature cannot arise?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Board of Inland Revenue have been advised that the legal effect of the provisions of the Law of Property Act, to which the hon. Baronet refers, is as indicated in the question and have proceeded accordingly. I am informed that the question whether this interpretation of the law is correct is likely to come before the Courts shortly, and pending the decision of the Courts I am not prepared to take any action in the matter.
    Sir M. MANNINGHAM-BULLER: May I ask my right hon. Friend if the object of the Law of Property Act is merely to facilitate transfer, and that there is no intention whatever of altering the incidence of taxation under that Act?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I really could not answer a question of that kind to do it justice without notice.

    INCOME TAX (REFUNDS).
    Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the inland Revenue Department has abandoned its practice of making small re-
    1162
    funds of Income Tax by means of orders payable at the Post Office and now only makes refunds by means of crossed cheques and whether, having regard to the inconvenience caused thereby to recipients without banking accounts, the Department will revert to its former practice?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): If my hon. Friend has any particular case of inconvenience in mind anti will let me have details, I will gladly make it the subject of inquiry. Complaints have always been exceedingly rare, and I understand they were never fewer than at present. The practice of making refunds by means of crossed cheques was adopted in the interests of economy and security. After some years' trial there is no evidence that it has given rise to any perceptible degree of friction or inconvenience to the public. In the circumstances I cannot see my way to agree with the suggestion that the practice should be abandoned.

    NEW SILVER COINAGE.
    Lieut.-Colonel WINDSOR-CLIVEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury why it was thought necessary to have a new coinage, seeing that the effigy of His Majesty is the same both on the old and the new coinage?
    Mr. SAMUEL: The Standing Committee, which advises the Master of the Mint on designs, advised that from the artistic point of view the new designs for the reverse show a distinct improvement upon the designs which they have now superseded. They further advised that from the technical point of view they are better adapted than the old designs for easy and economical minting and would prove sharper in detail and more durable in circulation.
    Lieut.-Colonel WINDSOR-CLIVE: Does the hon. Gentleman think that, from an artistic point of view, the new coinage is any improvement on the old?
    Mr. SAMUEL: That is a decision at which it is very difficult for me to arrive.
    Sir GODFREY DALRYMPLE-WHITE: Is it not a part of the Government's policy to help the producer?

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

    CHEMICAL WARFARE.
    Major-General Sir ROBERT HUTCHISONasked the Prime Minister, in view of the recommendation of the League of Nations Disarmament Commission that all subsidies both to private and official laboratories promoting research in poison gases be abolished, whether he can say which nations have adopted these recommendations; what action the British Government has taken; whether any subsidies are now being paid to manufacturers of poison gases and bacteria; and, if so, to whom these subsidies are being paid and the amount in each case?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): Certain clauses in regard to chemical warfare were included in the text of the Draft Convention drawn up by the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference at its third session, but they have not yet come forward for discussion on the Preparatory Commission. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative.

    TRAFFIC IN WOMEN AND CHILDREN (INDIA).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the inquiry proposed to be undertaken by the League of Nations Council into questions connected with the problem of the traffic in women and children in the East will take place in India as well as in other parts of the East; and, if so, whether representatives of vigilance societies and other interested bodies in India will be invited to co-operate?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): No decision has yet been reached in regard to the nature and scope of the further inquiries which may be made by the Traffic in Women and Children Committee. The second part of the question does not therefore at present arise.
    Mr. LANSBURY: If such a Committee is appointed, will steps be taken to appoint an Indian representative on it?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The Advisory Committee have been studying the whole question, and I am sure they will take that particular point into consideration.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Will the Under-Secretary make representations on behalf of an Indian representative?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I will consider it.

    STATISTICS CONFERENCE.
    Mr. HASLAMasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Government will be represented at the proposed International Conference to be summoned by the Council of the League of Nations in November next on the subject of adopting uniform methods of compiling commercial, industrial and economic statistics; and, if so, by whom?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Secretary-General of the League of Nations has been so informed. No decision has, however, yet been reached in regard to the composition of the delegation representing His Majesty's Government in Great Britain.

    GERMAN REPARATION.
    Mr. PONSONBYasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the decision of the Hague Court against the inclusion of the surplus proceeds from the liquidation of sequestrated German property abroad in the Dawes annuities, His Majesty's Government will now take steps to release the German sequestrated property, as has been done by the Government of the United States of America?
    The PRIME MINISTER: His Majesty's Government do not propose to depart from their existing practice, which is to release property in cases of hardship on the recommendation of the Blanesburgh Committee, but not in other cases.

  TRANSPORT.

    RAILWAY (ROAD TRANSPORT) BILL.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether arrangements can be made for the speeches delivered to the Joint Select Committee by counsel in support of and in opposition to the Railway (Road Transport) Bills to be circulated to Members before further stages of the Bills are taken, so that they may be fully apprised of the arguments for and against the proposals?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Responsibility for publication of the proceedings in connection with Private Bills falls on the Parliamentary agents. I have arranged for the hon. Member's suggestion to be brought to the notice of the parties concerned in the Bills to which he refers.

    ROYAL COMMISSION.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Minister of Transport whether it is proposed to take the necessary steps for the appointment of the Royal Commission on Transport before the end of the Session; and whether the proposed terms of reference to the Commission will be available before the further stages of the Railway (Road Transport) Bills are taken in the House?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): I am not yet in a position to say when the arrangements for the inquiry to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers will be made or its terms of reference settled.
    Sir F. HALL: May I ask if the Minister of Transport is aware of the reply I received from the Treasury just now, and whether he can see his way to act in concert with the Treasury in order to give as much information as is desirable to those who are likely to go into the matter?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I always act in concert with the Treasury.

    BULGARIA (REPARATION PAYMENTS).
    Mr. RILEYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Inter-Allied Commission at Sofia has yet decided what recommendation to make as to the remission or suspension of reparation payments in view of the recent disastrous earthquakes which have taken place in Bulgaria?
    Mr. SAMUEL: So far as I am aware, no decision on the matter has yet been taken by the Inter-Allied Commission.
    Mr. RILEY: Has the hon. Gentleman information that steps are being taken to consider the situation?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Yes, Sir, the British representative at Sofia has been so instructed.
    Mr. MALONE: Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that distress is serious and some settlement ought to be hastened?
    Mr. SAMUEL: We cannot do any more than we are doing.

    AFFORESTATION (DISEASES).
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the effect of water-mark disease on cricket-bat willow trees; and, in view of the fact that diseased trees are a menace to the whole neighbourhood, whether he will issue an Order, to apply to the water-mark disease, similar to that dealing with silver leaf and gooseberry mildew, by which owners are compelled to grub up and destroy infected trees or bushes?
    Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE: I have been asked to reply. The Forestry Commissioners are aware of the effect of water-mark disease, and they will consider the question of issuing an Order under the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts.
    Mr. A. M. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will state if any fresh cases of Dutch clm disease have been reported during the last month?
    Sir G. COURTHOPE: I have been asked to reply. The answer is in the negative. Certain suspicious cases have, however, been reported, and these are under investigation.

    PEDIGREE ANIMALS (EXPORT).
    Sir R THOMASasked the Minister of Agriculture how many head of pedigree animals have been exported from the East India Dock quarantine station up to the end of May; and to what countries of the Empire were they sent?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): During May six Sussex hulls passed through the quarantine station for export to Southern Rhodesia via Cape Town.

    LIVESTOCK IMPROVEMENT (SOUTH WALES).
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will give statistics for each of the six counties of South Wales and Monmouthshire showing the number of bulls, boars, heavy horses, and rams approved under the Ministry's scheme for the improvement of livestock
    The following STATEMENT shows the number of Approved Sires under the Ministry's Scheme for the Improvement of Livestock located in the undermentioned Counties of South Wales and Monmouthshire during the year 1927–28, and the aggregate Amount of Grants awarded in respect thereof.

    Name of County.

    Bulls.

    Boars.

    Heavy Horses.

    Rams.

    Aggregate amount of the grants awarded.

    £

    s.

    d.

    Brecon

    …

    …

    27

    10

    3

    5

    701

    10

    0

    Cardigan

    …

    …

    35

    9

    2

    2

    688

    4

    0

    Carmarthen

    …

    …

    37

    17

    4

    4

    891

    17

    6

    Glamorgan

    …

    …

    25

    17

    2

    2

    537

    0

    0

    Monmouth

    …

    …

    18

    13

    1

    Nil

    382

    0

    0

    Pembroke

    …

    …

    33

    17

    2

    Nil

    706

    0

    0

    Radnor

    …

    …

    22

    9

    1

    Nil

    412

    0

    0

    Totals

    …

    …

    197

    92

    15

    13

    4,318

    11

    6

    LINCOLNSHIRE BEET-SUGAR COMPANY, LIMITED (MACHINERY).
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that the Lincolnshire Beet-Sugar Company, Limited, have placed orders for sugar machinery capable of dealing with 1,000 tons of beet per day with an American firm, he will say whether there are any conditions placed on an industry that is enjoying a subsidy that the necessary plant and machinery used shall be manufactured in the country which is paying the subsidy?
    Mr. GUINNESS: If the hon. Member is referring to the factory already erected by the Lincolnshire Beet Sugar Company at Bardney, I am satisfied that this factory has complied with Section 1 (2) (b) of the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act, which provides that not less than 75 per cent. of the plant and machinery installed in the factory for the manufacture of sugar and molasses shall consist of plant and machinery wholly manufactured in Great Britain. I am advised that 90 per cent. of the machinery installed in this factory is of British origin.
    during the year 1927–28, and the aggregate amount of grants awarded in respect thereof?
    Mr. GUINNESS: With the hon. Baronet's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving the information desired.
    Following is the statement:
    Mr. MACLEAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a speech of the chairman of this company delivered at the annual meeting a fortnight ago in which he stated that they had given orders to an American firm, which he named, for the installation of the latest and most up-to-date plant? Cannot that plant be manufactured in this country by British firms? Was not that the purpose of the subsidy?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The plant is manufactured in this country up to 90 per cent. of it. I think the hon. Member has in view a statement that the Dyer Company of New York has been concerned in the design, but I understand the contract was sub-let to Messrs. Robert McAlpine and Sons, and they manufactured the plant.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is not the statement of the right hon. Gentleman incorrect? Was not Messrs. Robert McAlpine and Sons' contract for the erection of the factory, whereas the Dyer Company were concerned with the design and supply of machinery which is a different thing entirely?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The information I have is that 90 per cent. of the machinery is of British manufacture.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries into this matter and give the information to the House?
    Sir F. HALL: Is there not some mistake? Are not Sir Robert McAlpine and Sons builders, and not engineers? Will my right hon. Friend make sure that the terms of the agreement and the subsidy are being adhered to?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The question on the Paper deals with plant and machinery. No doubt McAlpine's are chiefly concerned with the plant. The total plant and machinery are to the extent of 90 per cent. of British production.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to my question, which says nothing about plant? It only deals with machinery.
    Mr. GUINNESS: If the hon. Member will look at the last line but one in the question, he will see that it mentions plant and machinery.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: May I ask why the right hon. Gentleman persistently declines to consider the annual purchase of about 1,000,000 jute bags as a necessary part of the plant?
    Mr. GUINNESS: Because that is not plant.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    BENEFIT (PAYMENT).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Labour (1) whether he is aware that Luther Miller, of Common Side, Church Gresley, a miner with a wife and six children, who qualified for unemployment benefit in the second week following Easter, has not received a penny of the benefit due to him, the explanation given by the local Employment Exchange being that the necessary authority to pay had been delayed by headquarters; and whether, in view of the fact that there is no question as to the validity of the claim, all the regula-
    1170
    tions having been fulfilled, he will give an explanation of the reasons for the delay in forwarding the necessary authority to the local Employment Exchange;
    (2) whether he is aware that Philip Chambers, of 86, Oxford Street, Church Gresley, a miner with a wife and child. who qualified for unemployment benefit in the week after Easter, has not received 3 penny of the benefit due to him, the explanation given by the local Employment Exchange being that the necessary authority to pay had been delayed by headquarters; and whether, in view of the fact that there is no question as to the validity of the claim, all the regulations having been fulfilled, he will give an explanation of the reasons for the delay in forwarding to the local Emplayment Exchange the necessary authority?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland): I regret the delay in these two cases, which was due to exceptional pressure at the local office. Payment of benefit was made on 8th June.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent further delay, seeing that it is more than two months since the application was made, and they had no means of living?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I take every possible means to see that payment is made as quickly as possible. Taking all the cases together, I think the payment is made with remarkable promptitude, but in some particular instances there is a sudden and great rush very often in a small place, and that causes delay, which I try to minimise as best I can.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a protest was made ocally, they were told that the delay occurred not in the small local Exchanges but in his own Department in London.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: If the hon. Member makes that assertion, I will look into it.
    Mr. LANISBURY: I do.

    SAFEGUARDED INDUSTRIES.
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Minister of Labour the number of insured workers in each of the industries which have been safeguarded by legislation?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 5th April, 1928, to the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton).

    PARISH RELIEF, GOVAN.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary- of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the Govan Parish Council and the Govan Employment Exchange have an arrangement between them that an unemployed man or woman in receipt of parish council relief must have a card stamped once each week by the local exchange; and whether he can state the number of people who have had part of their relief stopped because their cards have not been stamped by the exchange officials during March, April, and May, 1928?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part I am informed that no persons have had their relief stopped or reduced for the sole reason that their cards were not stamped by the Employment Exchange officials.
    Mr. MACLEAN: If I send the right hon. Gentleman some particulars of individuals who have had their money stopped, will he go into the matter?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: If the hon. Member furnishes the information, I will inquire into it.

    GRAMOPHONE INDUSTRY (EMPLOYES).
    Brigadier- General Sir HENRY CROFTasked the Minister of Labour the total number of workers employed in the gramophone industry in 1924 and 1927, respectively; and, if not, can he give the figures for the three largest companies?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I regret that the statistics desired are not available.
    Sir H. CROFT: In view of the fact that this industry is either flourishing or distressed as a result of Government action, is it not desirable that these simple facts should be presented to the House?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I should be only too glad if I could give the facts in regard to this industry, so that the truth might be known in every way, but it is really a question of classification. This particular industry falls into three or four different classifications, and for that reason in this as in other cases it is impossible to isolate them, so as to get the figures, without an undue amount of bookkeeping.
    Sir H. CROFT: Would it not be possible to address a questionnaire to the three biggest firms in the country in order to ascertain the facts? Would that be expensive? If not, the House would like to have the figures.
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I should be quite ready to publish the figures if the three firms are willing to give them. I am sure that if they are willing to give them they would give them to the hon. and gallant Member as freely as they would give them to me. I cannot take figures from individual firms and use them separately as official figures.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: If the right hon. Gentleman intends to ask for statistics, will he ask the same firms why they need to be protected if they can make such profits as to get 10 times the par value of their shares on the Stock Exchange?
    Mr. R. MORRISON: If the right hon. Gentleman is going to get statistics, will he at the same time get statistics from the piano trade, which is more depressed than it has been for 20 years?

    WASHINGTON HOURS CONVENTION.
    Mr. RILEYasked the Minister of Labour the names of the countries which have already unconditionally ratified the Washington Hours Convention; and the names of the countries which have decided to ratify conditionally on ratifica-

    1173
    ton by Great Britain and certain other countries?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: According to my information, Belgium, Bulgaria, Chile, Czechoslovakia, Greece, India, Luxemburg and Rumania have ratified the Washington Hours Convention unconditionally, and Austria, France, Italy and Latvia conditionally on ratification by Great Britain and other countries.
    Mr. W. THORNE(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the statement of the British Government representative at the Conference of the International Labour Organisation, the Government propose to take early action to modify the Washington Hours Convention in accordance with the con-elusion reached at the London Conference?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The policy of the Government was stated by my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, in the Debate on 13th February, and by my hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour, and myself on 27th February, and I have nothing to add to these statements.
    Mr. THORNE: Is it not a fact that the reason and the cause of the delay in signing the Convention, is that the Government want some modification? If that is so, how long is it to be before the Government give to the world the modification that they require?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I understand that in all probability the International Labour Office will be issuing a report for their October meeting, and that for the purpose of the report they will be asking for the views of the various Governments. We shall, of course, give them our views, and I can assure the hon. Member that as our purpose is really to get a workable Convention, the more quickly the proceedings take place, the better I for one shall be pleased.
    Mr. THORNE: Is it not a fact that the reason for the delay in the signing of the Convention, is the deep-rooted opposition of the employers of labour in this country?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: There is no truth whatever in that statement. The facts of the case are, as I have stated, that we wish to get a workable Convention which will really achieve the objects desired, and the sooner we can get this the better I shall be pleased.
    Me. THORNE: How is it, then, that many other countries have signed the Convention without any modification at all?

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    EMPLOYÉS, DURHAM.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the Secretary for Mines the number of men and boys employed in the mining industry in the county of Durham in the month of May for the years 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, and 1928, respectively.
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Commodore Douglas King): The number of wage earners (men and boys) employed in the coal mining industry in Durham in the month of May for the years mentioned was as follows:—

    1924

    176,400

    1925

    147,600

    1926 (April)

    156,800

    1927

    134,100

    1928

    126,500

    EXPORTS.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the amount of coal exported from this country for the months of January, February, March, and April for the years 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, and 1928, respectively; and the value of such exports for each month.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Herbert Williams): With the bon. Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table of figures giving the required information. I should like to add that this information is published monthly in the Trade and Navigation Returns which the hon. Member can obtain in the Vote Office and the Library.
    Following are the figures:
    The following TABLE shows the Total Quantities and Declared Values of Coal exported from Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in each of the months January to April in the years 1924 to 1928.

    Years.

    January.

    February.

    March.

    April.

    Quantities.

    Thousand Tons.

    Thousand Tons.

    Thousand Tons.

    Thousand Tons.

    1924

    …

    …

    …

    5,441

    5,075

    5,190

    5,063

    1925

    …

    …

    …

    4,306

    4,344

    4,392

    4,360

    1926

    …

    …

    …

    4,148

    4,340

    4,703

    4,291

    1927

    …

    …

    …

    4,093

    4,173

    4,820

    4,118

    1928

    …

    …

    …

    3,905

    4,008

    4,111

    3,722

    Declared Values.

    Thousand £.

    Thousand £

    Thousand £.

    Thousand £.

    1924

    …

    …

    …

    6,679

    6,201

    6,391

    6,326

    1925

    …

    …

    …

    4,709

    4,538

    4,557

    4,541

    1926

    …

    …

    …

    3,821

    4,026

    4,184

    3,768

    1927

    …

    …

    …

    4,291

    3,983

    4,460

    3,809

    1928

    …

    …

    …

    3,074

    3,152

    3,248

    2,936

    The figures shown above do not include coal shipped for the use of steamers engaged in the foreign trade.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    FOREIGN FIRMS (BRITISH FACTORIES).
    Sir H. CROFTasked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he can now give a complete list of foreign firms which have established branches, or are in process of establishing branches, of their industries in Great Britain since the various safeguarding, M'Kenna and silk duties were imposed, or reimposed, from 1925 onwards.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Information has appeared in the Press within the last few years of the establishment or proposed establishment in this country by firms with foreign interests of two motor car factories, six tyre factories and five or six silk and artificial silk factories.

    ALUMINIUM HOLLOW-WARE.
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the President of the Board of Trade the total production of aluminium hollow-ware in this country, and the amount exported, in each of the last six years.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The exports from this country of domestic hollow-ware
    1176
    of aluminium, registered as of United Kingdom manufacture, amounted during 1922 to 181 tons, in 1923 to 362 tons, in 1924 to 397 tons, in 1925 to 691 tons, in 1926 to 685 tons, and in 1927 to 666 tons. These figures include exports to the Irish Free State from 1st April, 1923. Particulars of the quantities produced year by year in the United Kingdom are not available, but it would appear from a preliminary examination of the Returns made in connexion with the Census of Production that the output in 1924 was between 1,600 and 1,700 tons.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Have the hon. Member's Department received an application from this industry for safeguarding?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: That is not a question which I should answer, for it is not the practice to make any statement with regard to applications until they have been referred to a Committee.
    Mr. KELLY: If it is the practice of the Department not to make this information known, why did they give the information to the Balfour Committee, which published a whole list of them?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: The list published in the Balfour Committee's Report is a list of those applications that were referred to Committees.

    NAVIGABLE WATERS (OIL POLLUTION).
    Mr. HASLAMasked the President of the Board of Trade what countries, if any, have ratified the recommendations made by the International Conference at Washington on the subject of sea pollution by the discharge of oil?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) on the 15th May, of which I am sending him a copy.

    LIGHTHOUSE SERVICE.
    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade how many men are engaged on the lighthouse service abroad at the Bahamas, Falkland Islands, Sombrero Island, and Morocco, Cape Spartel?
    Mr. WILLIAMS: With the hon. Members's permission I Will circulate the particulars for which he asks in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are tire particulars:
    So far as the Board of Trade information goes, the following is the staff employed in the lighthouse services mentioned:

    Bahamas.—28 lighthouse keepers.

    Depot staff, six officers and men.

    Steam tender, 30 officers and men.

    Falkland Islands.—Three lighthouse keepers.

    Sombrero.—Five lighthouse keepers.

    Cape Spartel.—Three lighthouse keepers and six other persons, including a military guard.

    Mr. KELLYasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of men employed in lighthouses abroad at Bombay, Burma, Calcutta, Ceylon, and Madras?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Earl Winterton): I have been asked to answer this. question. Complete information on the subject is not available and my Noble Friend would
    1178
    not feel justified in asking the Government of India to furnish an exhaustive list of the personnel employed at all the lighthouses lighting the coasts of the provinces mentioned, but if the hon. Member will specify more precisely the particular lighthouses with regard to which the information is desired, I will endeavour to obtain it, so far as India is concerned. Any question which he may wish to ask regarding lighthouses off the coast of Ceylon should be addressed to the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
    Mr. KELLY: In view of the accounts which are to be presented to this House, might we not be furnished with the information, in order that we may deal with the matter?
    Earl WINTERTON: I shall be always ready to afford information to hon. Members opposite on the matter, but I must point out that the Government of India are hardy in the same position as His Majesty's Government who have at their disposal statistical departments which the Indian Government have not. At the time of the Incheape Commission in India there was a specific recommendation, but I think it was pointed out that it was not fair to expect the Government of India, without spending a large sum of money, to get statistical information on all sorts of questions. If I were to ask for this information it would cost the taxpayers £40 or £50 which I do not think would be justified.

  AVIATION.

    ITALIAN AIRCRAFT (LONDON VISIT).
    Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLEasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has received any intimation that a fleet of Italian aeroplanes is to visit London during the present month; and, if so, what steps he is taking to accord them an official reception?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon): As regards the first part of the question, my right hon. Friend received some time since an unofficial intimation that the Italian authorities were contemplating sending a number of Italian aircraft to visit London this month, a request to which, on receiving particulars of what was desired, he was naturally glad to accede.

    1179
    As regards the second part, stress has been laid by the Italian authorities on the informal character of the visit and it has been suggested that official recognition should be limited to the accommodation of the aircraft and mechanics at a Royal Air Force aerodrome, where we shall, of course, be happy to give them all possible facilities. It is hoped, however, that General Balbo, the Italian Under-Secretary of State for Air, who is himself taking part in the flight, will, together with his personal staff, consent to be our guests.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: May we take it that our reception will be equal to the amount of hospitality and the splendid reception that were given to the British airmen when they visited Venice in connection with the Schneider Cup?
    Sir P. SASSOON: We shall do the best we can.

    Low FLYING, HANHAM.
    Mr. WALTER BAKERasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has received a complaint from the Kings-wood Urban District Council regarding low flying at Hanham; whether he is aware that the aeroplanes flew on a series of circuits occupying no more than two or three minutes each just above the roofs of the public buildings in this area; that there are eight churches in a radius of one mile and that public worship was greatly disturbed; and whether he will take immediate action under the Air Navigation (Consolidation) Order, 1923?
    Sir P. SASSOON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the remaining parts of the question, my right hon. Friend is entirely in sympathy with the view that the activities of aircraft should cause no interference with religious worship, but he has no power under the Air Navigation Order or otherwise to prohibit flying either absolutely on Sunday or between particular hours on that day, nor does he think that he would be justified in seeking such power. I understand that the flying which gave occasion for the hon. Member's question, has now ceased. I would add that in so far as any unnecessarily low flying may have occurred, any breach of the Regulations under the Air Navigation Order would be a matter for the police.
    Mr. BAKER: Having regard to the doubt that appears to exist in the Minister's mind as to the purpose of the Order, will he cause inquiries to be made and see whether it is not necessary to call the attention of the police to the powers that they possess?
    Sir P. SASSOON: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

    SMALL HOLDINGS, SKYE.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applicants for small holdings residing in Skye have been offered small holdings in Ross-shire (mainland); how many have accepted the offer; and the extent of ground which has been used?
    Sir JOHN GILMOUR: Eighteen Skye applicants have at one time or another been offered specific holdings on the mainland of Ross. Six declined and the remaining 12 have actually been settled on holdings extending to 279 acres of arable and pasture in individual occupation, with shares in common grazings of 3,247 acres.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I ask how many of these people have been settled recently, that is, within the last two or three years?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I cannot give that information without making inquiry.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why he is bringing people from the Island of Skye and giving them small holdings on the mainland, and sending people from the mainland to small holdings in Skye?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The policy of the Department is to give the best chance to individuals and if they do not wish to go outside they cannot be compelled to do so.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that there is land available in the Island of Skye for small holdings which might be offered to the people who have been born and bred on the island, and that there is land available on the mainland of Ross-shire for small holdings which could be offered to the people born and bred on the mainland? Will he not go into this matter and see that this interchange does not go on, as it costs money to the Department?

    SOUTHERN RHODESIA (JUVENILE EMPLOYMENT).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs with reference to the Native Juveniles Employment Act of Southern Rhodesia, whether regulations are being made that will ensure a standard minimum wage,, facilities for attending schools wherever possible, and real freedom to return home at the expiry of the child's contract; and whether inspectors, and how many and of what sex, will be appointed to watch over the labour conditions of these children?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. Amery): I am not in a position to supply information on these points at present but inquiry as to the position will be made of the Southern Rhodesian Government.

  INDIA.

    PUBLIC SERVICES (PENSIONS).
    Sir F. NELSONasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether a member of any of the public services in India, who elected not to come under the new pension rules of 1919, which were the outcome of the Islington Commission of 1913, is in any way debarred from participating in the special additional pension benefits conferred on the Indian public services in 1924 as an outcome of the Lee Commission proposals; and, if so, whether such members who did not elect to accept the 1919 proposals will be permitted now to accept them?
    Earl WINTERTON: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. No change was recommended by the Lee Commission in the rates of special additional pension as fixed in 1919 and none has been made.

    EDUCATION EXPENDITURE.
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Under-Secretary of State for India the total amount of money allocated by the central and provincial governments of India for the education of Indians and Europeans, respectively, and the amount this averages per head of the total Indian and European population, respectively?
    Earl WINTERTON: Education is a provincial and in large part a Trans-
    1182
    ferred subject. My Noble Friend does not, therefore, receive annually such detailed statistics as those asked for, and the latest at present available relate to 1921–22, when the last Quinquennial Report IA as prepared. When the Report for 1927 is received I will inform the hon. Member.

    KENYA (DOMESTIC SERVANTS BILL).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the attention of the India Office has been drawn to the passage of the Domestic Servants Bill in Kenya Colony; is he aware that this Bill originally provided that all native domestic servants in Kenya Colony would be required to have their finger prints and photographs taken and placed on a registration form and that, during the passage of the Bill, this was amended in order to include Indian subjects in the scope of the Bill; and whether, before sanction has been given to this Bill, he proposes to take any action a in the matter?
    Earl WINTERTON: I know nothing regarding this Bill beyond what I have learned from the reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon). Any representations regarding the Measure that may reach my Noble Friend from those concerned will receive his careful attention.

    OUTLAWRY OF WAR.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs which of the Dominion Governments have now replied on the Kellogg note; which have accepted the American terms and which have inserted the reservations that respect for the obligations arising out of the covenant of the League of Nations and the Locarno Treaties is fundamental; and does the attitude of the Dominions, as now expressed, modify the attitude His Majesty's Government has taken up towards the Kellogg note?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The replies of His Majesty's Governments in New Zealand, Canada, the Commonwealth of

    1183
    Australia, and the Irish Free State, as well as the reply of the Government of India have been published in the Press on the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 13th of June, respectively. Nothing in the attitude of the Dominions as expressed in these notes has caused His Majesty's Government in Great Britain to alter its attitude of cordial co-operation with the United States Government in promoting the attainment of the object in view.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: If the attitude of the Dominions towards the Kellogg proposal is one which is not qualified by reservations, will not that attitude of our Dominions influence His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: These replies have been published in the Press, and I do not think it is the duty of the Foreign Office to interpret them, as they speak for themselves.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is it not the fact that the splendid gesture on the part of Mr. Kellogg will not be the opinion of the American Government until it is endorsed by the American Senate?

  ROYAL NAVY.

    EMPLOYÉES, HONG KONG AND SINGAPORE.
    Mr. KELLYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of men employed by the Admiralty at Hong Kong and Singapore; and how many of these men have gone out from home yards under agreement?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): The number at Hong Kong is 3,612 and at Singapore 875; of these numbers there are 121 and 34, respectively, who have been sent out from home under agreement.

    DOCKYARD EMPLOYÉS (OLD AGE PENSIONS).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the inconvenience that is caused to ex-naval and ex-established workers from His Majesty's dockyards when making applications for the old age pension at the age of 65, seeing that the Admiralty retain the birth certificates of
    1184
    these men on entry or establishment; and whether he can arrange in future for the birth certificates of these men to be returned to them after verifying their ages on entry or establishment?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and to the second part that the course proposed is not considered necessary. I understand that it is only in exceptional cases that applicants for old age pensions are required to produce birth certificates. The certificates can always be obtained by ex-naval ratings on application to the Admiralty and by ex-established workmen on application to the Civil Service Commission.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman kindly look further into this grievance, and, if he finds that the complaint is genuine, will he remedy the practice?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: We have not had any complaints, but I shall always be ready to look into any grievance.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH (OVERTIME).
    Major OWEN (for Mr. FENBY)asked the Minister of Health whether, seeing that clerical officers and writing assistants are at present employed on overtime in sections of his Department, and in view of the fact that ex-service temporary clerks are at present under notice terminating their employment, he can see his way to so adjust the work as to permit of their further employment?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It is the invariable practice in my Department, before recourse is had to overtime, to consider whether this can be avoided by an adjustment of staff. I am satisfied that the requirements of the work at present necessitating the employment on overtime of a small number of clerical officers and writing assistants in London and the provinces could not be met by the withdrawal of notices to ex-service temporary clerks.

    ASSURANCE COMPANIES ACT, 1909.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury

    1185
    whether any decision has been reached regarding the recommendations made by the Departmental Committee on The Assurance Companies Act, 1909, that the Board of Trade should be enabled to apply to the Court for power to inspect any insurance undertaking?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I have been asked to reply. The matter is one which must be dealt with when a Bill is introduced to deal with recommendations of the Departmental Committee as a whole. I am not able at present to say when it will be possible to introduce such a Bill.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Would the Prime, Minister kindly state what business it is proposed to take next week?
The PRIME MINISTER: The business will be:
Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday: Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Bill—Committee.
Thursday: Supply Committee (13th Allotted Day)—Estimate for the Mines Department.
Friday: Private Members' Bills will be considered on Report and Third Reading.
On any day, if there is time, other Orders will be taken.
Ordered,
"That the Motion relating to the Prayer Book Measure, 1928. have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]

STRANGERS (ADMISSION).
Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: On a point of Order. In view of the intense interest in the Debate on the Prayer Book Measure and the representations which have been made from outside by the many who are not able to get into the House, may I ask whether it would be possible to utilise for the public any part of the Members' Gallery?
Mr. SPEAKER: I have no authority to encroach on the accommodation of Members.

SELECTION (PRIVATE BILLS (CONSOLIDATION) (JOINT COMMITTEE).
Mr. William Nicholson reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had nominated the following additional Member to serve on the Joint Committee of Lords and Commons on Private Bills (Consolidation): Sir Joseph Nall.
Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FLOM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Cotton Industry Bill,
Scottish Insurance Companies (Superannuation Fund) Bill, without Amendment.
Petroleum (Amendment) Bill,
Exeter Corporation Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill intituled, "An Act to extend the boundaries of the City of Oxford; and for other purposes." [Oxford Extension Bill [Lords].
Oxford Extension Bill [Lords],
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  PRAYER BOOK MEASURE, 1928.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [13 th June],
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Prayer Book Measure, 1928, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."—[Sir Boyd Merriman.]
  Question again proposed.
  Sir WILLIAM JOYNSON-HICKS: On the last occasion, six months ago, when I had the privilege of speaking on this question, I spoke under greater difficulty than any I have felt in any Debate in which I had taken a part. To-day I speak under even more difficulty, because we realise that the decision which will be reached by the House to-night is perhaps one of a more final character than the decision arrived at in December of last year. I particularly want my own friends in this House to realise that the position of a man, a politician and a man of affairs, who embarks on religious controversy, is by no means an easy one. He does not do it lightly. One does not run the risks of breaking friendships or the possibility of misunderstanding, of attack on all sides, unless one really feels that the matter is one upon which one cannot possibly remain silent—unless one really feels that the issues at stake are vital to the religion of the country or vital to the country itself, and that one cannot do otherwise than take one's share in the Debate.
  To-night I am additionally unhappy because I know that my revered leader and friend, the Prime Minister, is going, as he is quite entitled to do, to take a strong side against myself. That is sufficient to show to the House that I, as one of his most loyal Ministers, would not think of interfering in a Debate of this kind unless in my heart I thought it was absolutely essential to do so. I am convinced, many of us are convinced, and many throughout the country are convinced, that in this matter it is not merely a question of a few ceremonies here or there, of a few vestments or ornaments here or there, but that there really is a big and vital religious question embodied in the alterations in this
  1198
  Prayer Book. Later on, we may be told that we are mere laity, and that we ought not to express an opinion of that kind; but the people of this country, in their hundreds of thousands, in their millions, are convinced that there is a definite change in doctrine in this Book which puts it far beyond any mere question of ceremonies or vestments or anything of that kind. I have had attacks from many of my friends on the Episcopal Bench during the last few weeks. I suppose they will all say with Job—
  "Oh that my adversary had written a book."
  I have suffered because I have written a book and many of the Bishops have attacked me in regard to it, though I think not unfairly. I am bound to say that ever the one of them who accused me of monstrous perversion of fact did it in a kindly way and without any reflection on my personal honour or honesty. I should however like to say that the Bishop of Manchester complained that I had issued, under my high personal and official authority, an extremely partisan book. If anyone will look at the book they will see that nowhere at all in it is my office mentioned. I wrote the book purely as an individual Member of Parliament and as an individual member of the Church of England, and, when the publisher issued a notice saying that the book was by the Home Secretary, that notice was sent to me by another Bishop, and I at once sent to the publisher withdrawing any indication of the fact that I happened to hold an office in His Majesty's Government. It was simply and solely unofficial, and it was my own personal thoughts and feelings which caused me to write that book. At the same time, no office which I might hold would keep me silent in a matter of this kind. If I thought it right to write that book, or if I thought it right to make this speech to-day, no office and no possibility of office could keep me silent in a matter of this kind.
  I am not going into the Bishops' answers, but may I say a word which I think is due to one whom I may still call my friend on the Episcopal bench, His Grace the Archbishop. I made a statement in my last speech which, though true in fact, led to an inference which was not correct. The House will remember that I quoted the instance of St. Michael's Church, where Canon Bullock

  1199
  Webster was Rector, and I said, "Here is a church where the Archbishop, as patron, has put in this very man." I have seen His Grace during the interval between the two Debates. The House may be amused or interested to hear that His Grace and I do not look upon one another in the light of men who seek to say that which is not true. We respect one another's sincerity. When His Grace told me, as he did in personal conversation, that it was quite true that he appointed that man to that church, but that, when appointed, the man was an Evangelical, and that His Grace did not appoint him knowing that he had any High Church or Ritualistic views, I, at once, told His Grace that I should take an early opportunity of telling the House of Commons that in the inference which I drew I was mistaken. But let me go one step further. Though the inference in regard to the Archbishop was wrong, what are we to say of the man himself? It is only one of numerous instances of men who are appointed today in the Church of England—appointed as this gentleman was to an Evangelical parish, appointed by an Evangelical Archbishop, appointed as being himself an Evangelical at the time, and he has now converted that church, without the assent of the congregation, without the assent of the patron, the Archbishop, into a centre and hotbed of Ritualism.
  I am going to ask a little later in my speech where the rights of the laity in regard to the Church of England come in. That is because one of my hon. Friends, speaking yesterday, told us of the advances that had been made in regard to the rights of the laity during the last 100 years. It is quite true that the advances up to the present have been very small. We believe the Church consists of the Bishops, the clergy, and the laity. We believe that we are just as much part of the Church of England and the Church of God as the Bishops and the clergy. We believe we are just as much entitled to express our opinion as to the doctrines and ceremonies in our own church as any ecclesiastic. I am going to ask the House to deal with this Measure to-day not by way of cheap personalities in regard to points which may be raised in Debate. We have got beyond that to-day. I am going to ask
  1200
  them to deal with it because the House of Commons is the last resort, the last place in which the laity of the country can express their opinion on the doctrines and ceremonies of the national Church.
  We are entitled to do so, notwithstanding the fact that some of the Bishops have complained of the attitude of the House of Commons last year, and have complained that we rejected this Measure through a misapprehension. The Bishop of Durham tells us that the revision of the Prayer Book is a domestic concern of the Church of England. A domestic concern, Mr. Speaker! Was the Reformation a domestic concern of the Church of England? Ask the Free Churches, ask the laity of the land. Where are you going to limit the "domestic concerns" of the Church of England? The same Bishop goes on to tell us that the House of Lords set us a good example. The House of Lords, he says, dealt with this matter only with the votes of members of the Church of England, and he suggests that nobody here who is not a member of the Church of England should conscientiously seek to take part in this Debate either by voice or by vote. Are we going to re-establish the Test Acts for the House of Commons before they can deal with the Established Church, which has itself, with the assent of Parliament, abolished the Test Acts. The Archbishop has made no such suggestion. The speech of the Archbishop was quoted by the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Hopkin Norris) yesterday afternoon. The Archbishop makes it perfectly clear, and I want to make it perfectly clear, that it is not only the right but the duty of every man who represents a constituency in this country to take part in a Debate which affects the whole future of the Church in this country.
  4.0 p.m.
  I think the hon. Member for Cardigan omitted one very important sentence. The Archbishop not merely told us that it was our right to vote, but laid it down that the Enabling Act of a few years ago did not deprive Parliament of this right. Parliament, in passing the Enabling Act, said the Archbishop, was not depriving itself of any fundamental right. I adhere to that to-day. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) who, I believe is

  1201
  going to speak this afternoon, in a speech made when the Enabling Act was passing through this House, told us that it left Parliament in exactly the same position as that in which it had always been and that there was no alteration in that respect. But may I consider it a little further. The Prayer Book itself was set up and established by Parliament. It is the creation of Parliament. In the reign of Henry VIII, Parliament declared that the King's consent was requisite to all canons, and in 1534 it was not the Church, but Parliament, which abolished the jurisdiction of the Pope in this land. The first and second Prayer Books of Edward VI were established by Parliament in 1549 and 1552. The prayers and worship of the Church, the doctrine of the Church, the discipline of the Church have all been settled by Acts of Parliament. You cannot alter them; you cannot alter the Prayer Book; you cannot alter the discipline of the Church without an Act of this House. It is idle for anyone to come here and say with all that clearly laid down in our Constitution, that you and I, or any hon. Member who is not a member of the Church of England, is not entitled to take his rightful share in dealing with the Constitution of the Church of England as by law established. The very Prayer Book of 1662 is itself a Schedule to an Act of Parliament, the existing Act of Uniformity. It could not have been used without an Act of Parliament being passed. The Articles of religion were only made binding on the clergy, not by the decision of the Church, but by the decision of Parliament, I think, in 1571. Parliament controlled all through. Parliament decided that every clergyman must give his assent and consent unfeignedly to the Book of Common Prayer. That was not the Church; it was the House of Commons and Parliament. Parliament decided that no other form of prayer could be used. Parliament decided that no person could administer the Sacrament who had not been ordained a priest. It was not the decision of the Church that a deacon could not administer the Sacrament. It was all by the decision of this and the other House, of Parliament from time to time.
  1202
  I suggest that last December we were strictly within our rights, strictly within our duty in expressing our opinion and giving our votes on this momentous question which, in effect, alters many Acts of Parliament. I do not believe it would be desirable to quote the remarks of a good many Bishops since. Some of them denounced the action of the House of Commons in unmeasured language. I had thought of quoting them to the House, but I think it would be more respectful to the House to leave those quotations on one side. They might, perhaps, introduce bitterness, which I am anxious to avoid in the Debate. But I must refer to a statement made by the Bishop of Lincoln only a short time ago. Speaking in his own diocese he said:
  "Even if the House of Commons rejected the revised Prayer Book, that would not prevent it being used. The lesson of history was that liberty was seldom conceded; it must be taken. They must take to themselves the liberty which they needed."
  That was a challenge to the House of Commons. That was a direct and definite statement by one of the Bishops that they intend to use this Book whether we authorise it or not. That is a very serious act. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North-East Leeds (Major Birchall), with whom I have worked in this House for a good many years, went very near that in his speech yesterday afternoon. He told us that the changes suggested by the Church
  "are on record, and no action of this House or of the House of Lords can affect that record in any way whatever.… I admit that they aced the assent of this House and of the Rouse of Lords, and I hope that assent will be given.… Surely it will be impossible to make men conform to a law which does not recognise the changes which are proposed by the new Book.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th June, 1928; cols. 1059–60, Vol. 218.]
  My hon. and gallant Friend is a Member of the Church Assembly. He represents the views of the Church Assembly in that respect, and it is a serious suggestion, first by a Bishop, and then by a member of the Church of England within this House, although he does not go as far as to say so, it is tantamount to saying to the House on the authority of a Bishop that the clergy are not going to comply with the decision of the House if it is against them, and on the authority of my hon. and gallant Friend that you

  1203
  cannot expect people to conform to the law laid down by the House of Commons if it is not in conformity with what is adopted by the Church Assembly.
  Major BIRCHALL: I think my right hon. Friend has just admitted that there was nothing in my speech yesterday to suggest that the opinion of the House of Commons would have no effect upon the matter. All I did was to point out what, I think, is an admitted fact, that the Church, through its Assembly and its leaders, had expressed certain opinions as to what was legal and what was illegal in the Church of England. What I said was—and I think the quotation which my right hon. Friend read will bear that out—that nothing this House or the House of Lords could do could affect that statement of the opinion of the Church in its Assembly—an Assembly set up by this House—and of its leaders the Bishops. I did not go on to say, as, apparently, the quotation of the Bishop of Lincoln said, that the Book would be authorised in the different dioceses. Of that I have no knowledge and no right to speak. All I said was that the decision of the Church was on record, and that nothing this House could do could affect that particular record. As to what the future has in store after this Debate, I, for one, certainly will not venture to prophesy.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think the House will agree that I have not put any misinterpretation upon my hon. and gallant Friend's speech. My hon. and gallant Friend has not repeated now the sentence he made yesterday:
  "Surely it will be impossible to make men conform to a law which does not recognise the changes which are now proposed by the new Book."
  That is a statement of a serious character. It is a statement made by a Member of this House. When we are considering whether we shall make these changes or not, my hon. and gallant Friend comes along and says, "If you do not make them; if you do not agree to them, you cannot expect men to conform to the law." I ought, before going further, to say a word or two with regard to the speech made by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, a speech which we all enjoyed for its high tone and its deep sincerity, although he
  1204
  was, perhaps, from time to time, a little hard upon myself. That seems to be my fate in this controversy. He complained about the cover put by the publishers on the outside of my book. The complaint was not so much against what was in the book written by myself, but of the cover. I agree frankly that it might have been worded a little better. It says:
  "It would promote the reintroduction of those Romish ceremonies and forms of devotion which the Royal Commission of 1906 said should he promptly made to cease."
  My hon. and learned Friend, who is a lawyer, ought to have quoted a little more accurately. He did quote that accurately, but then he went on to say:
  "It is not true to say that this book would legalise or promote."—[OFFICIAL REPORT , 13th June, 1928; col. 1005, Vol. 218.]
  I never said it would legalise, nor did my publishers say it would legalise. What they have said—and I am prepared to take responsibility for it—was that the effect of the changes in the Book would be to promote, though not by law, a kind of feeling throughout the country which would lead to a reintroduction of those ceremonies. [Interruption.] Take the case of Reservation leading to Adoration. You allow Reservation, and you allow the light to be constantly burning before the Reserved Sacrament. Do you mean to tell me that that does not lead to Adoration? [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Somebody says "No." Really, go to the high churches, go to the ritualist churches themselves, and find out whether they are not satisfied that an altar light or a light burning before the Reserved Sacrament leads to people making their prayers before, and subsequently adoring, the Reserved Sacrament. I shall have a word more to say about a light burning before the Reserved Sacrament in a few moments.
  There is another point raised by my hon. and learned Friend about a statement in my book where I am alleged to have said that the only punishment for clerical contumacy is imprisonment, and that there is no deprivation. He has dived into a very deep legal question there. I am aware that there is deprivation in two Acts of Parliament. I am equally aware that deprivation has in the

  1205
  past almost never been successfully carried through. If you take two well-known cases, you find it was for contumacy, for disobeying the orders of the Courts, that imprisonment took place. I refer to the cases of Mr. Green and Mr. Dale; but in Mr. Mackonochie's case, the great ritualist, case, efforts were made to deprive him. There were three suits, one after another; they went through Court after Court. Thousands and thousands of pounds were spent, and what happened? When all the fighting that could be fought was nearing its end, when the sentence of deprivation was about to be passed, Mr. Mackonochie resigned his living, and he was at once appointed to the living of St. Peter's, London Dock, by the Bishop of London. After that the incumbent of St. Peter's was sent to the church from which Mr. Mackonochie came. More than that, again the question of deprivation came up when he was at St. Peter's, London Docks, and he was inhibited, and, I think, deprived of all his powers and position in the province of Canterbury, and then he was licensed to act as curate at the church from which he had been inhibited.
  Is it too much to say that there is no real possibility of deprivation in regard to a question of this kind in the Church of England at the present day? So much so was it, that in 1903 a Bill was brought into this House a ad passed its Second Reading, giving in plain and explicit language the right to the Bishops to deprive rather than to send men to prison for contumacy, when they have definitely over and over again acted against the views of the Church and their Bishops. I should like to make one quotation, because it rather emphasises what I have been saying just now as to the trend of matters to-day. When I was looking through the Report of these particular Debates I found a quotation made by Sir William Harcourt from a visitation address by the Bishop of Winchester, who is now the Archbishop of Canterbury. This is what he said to his own clergy nearly 30 years ago:
  "The gravest danger of all is to be seen in the teaching and usages of an increasing number of parish priests with respect to Holy Communion, the swinging back half unconsciously into something like the materialistic doctrine of the 15th century, and insensibly drifting away from the true proportion of the faith of the Church of
  1206
  England into the peril of something sadly like, the materialistic superstition of pre-Reformation days."
  That is exactly what we say now. It is the drift of so many of the clergy to materialistic ideas. That was the view of the Archbishop 30 years ago. Can it be doubted that it is the view of many thinking men, even on the Episcopal Bench to-day, that this steady drift by these men is back to the pre-Reformation principles and ideas. It is because the great bulk of us believe that the new Prayer Book is tending towards that direction, that it is making it easier rather than more difficult, for this swing back to pre-Reformation ideas, that we ask the douse of Commons to reject it. I admit, of course, that there are a few things which are improvements in the Book—the prayer for the King, the rubrics in regard to Reservation, and one or two other points, but do let the House remember that the Book in its essentials is the same to-day as when we rejected it in December last. The Archbishop himself made that clear, and the Bishop of London, in his well-known letter to the "Times," makes it equally clear. This letter was written only two months ago. He says:
  "In the first place, there is no alteration in principle between the Book as amended and the Deposited Book."
  Remember, we are being asked to revoke our decision, which was arrived at after one of the most remarkable Debates which I have ever heard or have taken part in. Vie are now told by the Bishop of London, we are told by the Archbishop, that they did not intend to make any changes in principle. We are told by the Bishop of London that there is no change. The changes made are in the nature of explanations, rather than changes in doctrine. The Bishop goes on:
  "From an Anglo-Catholic point of view, it should now be noted that, for the first time, to receive Communion fasting is formally stated to be a laudable and ancient custom of the Church. Further, no-notice seems to have been taken of the fact that the suggestion of the vestry as a place for Reservation has been dropped."
  The Bishop added that the changes were an improvement from the Anglo-Catholic point of view. We did not ask for an improvement from the Anglo-Catholic point of view. We threw the Book out, because we were doubtful of it from a

  1207
  Protestant point of view. There is no improvement in it from the Protestant point of view. The Bishop of Oxford in his Diocesan Magazine for April last, said:
  "I would claim that there is no change of substance involved."
  The Archbishop of York said:
  "None of the few Amendments in the present Measure make any real change in the contents of the Book."
  We are asked, then, to change our views and our opinions when we know that fact. We are told that there is no alteration in doctrine. We are told that the Book to-day is the same in its doctrines as the Book of 1662. The Archbishop of Wales, the oldest member of the Episcopal Bench to-day, and the longest a bishop, says that there is a change of doctrine. The Archbishop of Armagh says that there is a change, and half-a-dozen of the Bishops of the Church are opposing it because there is a change. Lord Parmoor, one of the greatest ecclesiastic lawyers of to-day, says that there is a distinct change of doctrine in the Book as against the Prayer Book of 1662. More than that, there is, in the hearts and minds of men, a kind of feeling leading to knowledge that this alteration was made because of the demand from the Anglo-Catholics for a change in the doctrines and the practices of the Church of England. There would have been no revision otherwise. Why should there be? The nation as a whole was satisfied with the Book.
  Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE: Letters of business were granted.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not want to get into a wrangle with either friends or political opponents this afternoon. Surely, the hon. and gallant Member has only to read the statements of the Bishops themselves, as to their inability to cope with the illegalities in the Church without some alteration to the law. They tell us that they cannot do it. They said that it was becoming intolerable from the Bishops' point of view. That is the reason that the man in the pew, the man in the street, the man and woman in the home, know in their bones that this alteration is a sliding back to pre-Reformation principles. I wonder whether hon. Members remember a speech made by Lord Balfour in this
  1208
  House 20 years ago, when he pointed out that, if the Church of England is to continue, established or unestablished, it must be the Church as purified at the Reformation. He said:
  "It is the Church whose doctrines were purified and whose ritual was simplified in the 16th century, and it is only so long as it retains that character that it can hope to preserve the affections of the English people."
  It is because of that that the Prayer Book has retained, and does retain, the affection of the mass of the people.
  The question of Reservation is the crux of the whole matter. It was the crux in December, and it is the crux to-day. Last time, I quoted the Federation of Catholic Priests, who refused to abide by any Reservation which did not involve Adoration. Yesterday, one of my hon. Friends quoted the decision of 2,000 priests of the Church of England. Let me quote the position of the English Church Union itself. They had a great meeting of lay people in Church House in February of this year, and to my astonishment they were very courteous. They sent me the resolution which they passed; they thought that I ought to have it. It was a meeting of the lay community, and the resolution read:
  "This assembly of lay communicants of the Church of England solemnly affirms its belief in the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of His Body and Blood, and claims for Him the honour and worship which are due to His Name and Person in that Sacrament everywhere, and at all times."
  Lord Shaftesbury was in the Chair, and Lord Halifax spoke. I have a verbatim report of the speeches. It cannot be denied what their position is. The President read that declaration to some 2,000 people. What the declaration does is to assert in the plainest terms the Divine Presence in the consecrated elements and that Our Blessed Lord is adorable, and should be adored, in the Divine Sacrament. I need not quote the speech of Lord Halifax; one realises the sincerity of that Noble Lord. For years past he has upheld the rights of the Anglo-Catholics, and has never blenched for one moment from carrying his views to the logical conclusion, and I respect him intensely for it. Speaker after speaker laid down the same thing, that the Sacrament is to be adored. It is somewhat curious that

  1209
  these opponents of mine should have realised at that moment that the view, which I laid down here in December, was their view, and that I had correctly stated their view in regard to the Reserved Sacrament. Let me put it as respectfully as possible. If a change be made by the act of Consecration in the Elements, and if they do indeed become the Body and Blood of Christ, and if these Elements are reserved anywhere, then, indeed, the Body and Blood of Our Lord, wherever reserved, must, to a man or woman who believes that such a change has taken place, be the subject of Adoration. That is the view I put to the House six months ago, and that is the position which they accept. They quote my words; they say that I have been fair to them. That is the reason why for 300 years the Church of England has declined to permit Reservation—it is because you cannot prevent Adoration. Two thousand two hundred priests of the Church of England definitely signed a document declaring their belief
  "that Our Lord Jesus Christ being therefore truly and personally present in the Consecrated Sacrament is therein to he adored; and that inward and outward acts of Adoration are due to Him in the Liturgy after the Consecration. We believe also that Our Lord is no less present in the Sacrament when reserved; and therefore is therein always to be adored with like acts of Adoration."
  The Bishops may say that they will get men to change from that view. I do not think that they will. My respect for Lord Halifax, and for many of my friends who take opposite views to myself, is such that I do not believe that they can alter; if they are honest, they cannot alter. The Reserved Sacrament is there, and in their hearts they must claim the right to Adoration. If the Bishops wanted to prevent it, there is one way in which they could have done it. We are told that proposals were made that no light should be allowed to hang in front of the Sacrament. It was turned down by the Bishops. Why, if they wanted to stop Adoration? Why did one of the Bishops write that the keeping of the Sacrament in the vestry was an old and primitive custom? Why not keep it, in all reverence, in the safe, assuming the correctness of the claim that it is only for the purposes of the sick? They would not have it at any price; at no price,
  1210
  whatever would they assent to the Book if there was a rubric that the Reserved Sacrament should be kept in the vestry. They have the courage of their views, because they mean that it should be used for the purpose of Adoration. That is the point that cannot, I suggest, be got over. It is no good a Bishop going to them and saying, "Will you do this or that?" The Bishop of Manchester said that he is not going to discipline; he would refuse to share in a demand for the enforcement of ecclesiastical discipline. The Bishop of Gloucester tells us that he will not prosecute, and would not give an under taking not to promote these men. I spoke of that six months ago; for 20 years, I have asked the Bishops not to appoint to livings men who deliberately and definitely defy the law of the Church in regard to these matters. They will not agree to this. Is this likely to increase peace in the Church of England? The Bishop of Ripon, who is very frank about this question of reservation, writing to the "Times" in January of this year, said:
  "For myself, I cannot but agree with Doctor Barnes that the real ground for conceding perpetual reservation is not what you, Sir, in your most apposite leading article call 'the street accident theory,' but the conscientious reluctance of many clergy to celebrate the Holy Communion when not fasting. It is, in fact, only on the principle of charity that I found myself able to support the concession, not, on the ground of any proved need."
  That is one of the Bishops supporting the Book. That is what he tells us is, in his view, the reason. The whole thing is combined with the theory of fasting communion. Chasuble, incense, lights—all are unimportant in themselves. It is not the chasuble, it is the man in the chasuble, it is the doctrine preached by that man; it is the doctrine preached in church after church in our land to-day. There are a number of services of adoration in the Church to-day. In the advertisement columns of the "Church Times" this week and last week, you will see instance after instance of services of reservation and adoration in our churches to-day. There are the 2,000 priests. How are you going to ask those men to stop doing what they have been allowed to do? Thirty years ago there were 30 churches where reservation was practised; to-day there are nearly 700. Will the number grow less and

  1211
  diminish when you authorise reservation? I do not see how it can.
  I ask the House earnestly to consider this question before they come to the vote. It is not a Book which is going to bring peace in the land. It is a Book which is going to create diversity of use in the villages of the land. It is not a Book which is going to embody rights for the laity. It is the clergyman and the Bishop who can dictate which Prayer Book is to be used in a church. The whole parish has a right to appeal to the Bishop, but the Bishop is the man who has voted for the Book, who has pressed the Book forward for the last year or two. He is the man who is to be the final judge, and if he says to the clergyman, "Yes, you may use the new Book," the laity have no further right in the matter. The right of final decision is an episcopal right and not a right of the laity. I would ask the House to think very carefully before passing this Book, which cannot bring peace, but a sword, to the Church.
  The Archbishop, for whom I have the deepest respect, as he knows, published a pamphlet a few days ago in the form of a letter—a very touching one—asking us to think very carefully about this matter. He told us of his 80 years. Ridley went to the stake in his 80th year for the reformed Book. The Archbishop very frankly says that it must not be long, as we all realise, before someone else Lakes his place. I ask the House to remember that this matter is not for the life of any one of us; it is for the life of the people for centuries to come, the life of the Church, the life of the nation. Mr. Speaker, I hope I have made my last speech on this controversial question. It has been a speech of great difficulty, a speech which has caused me great anxiety. I hope I have said nothing to any of my hon. Friends that will embitter controversy. I only hope and pray that this issue may be directed by God, that the God who is the God of Catholic and Protestant, the God of Churchmen and Nonconformists, will, in the words of that great prayer for our House of Parliament, so order our consultations
  "that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be established among us for all generations."
  Mr. C. ATKINSON: It is not easy to follow the right hon. Gentleman when he
  1212
  talks in the strain in which we have just heard him speak, but there is more to answer than that which we have heard to-day. Much has been said in the past which must be answered in this House. Like the Home Secretary, I belong to the Evangelical side of the Church, but, unlike him, I recognise that it is a side, and that there is another side just as important, just as legitimate, and just as orthodox as that to which he and I belong, and I am convinced, unless we are prepared to do a great, and perhaps an irreparable injustice, that this fact must be remembered and that we must approach this matter with open minds. That is no easy thing, perhaps, to men who feel strongly. For many months the right hon. Gentleman has led the campaign against this Book. I hope he will accept my assurance that at no moment of time have I doubted, nor do I doubt, his good faith or his sincerity, nor do I know to what extent he is responsible for the conduct of that campaign, but there can be no question that the method adopted has been to stir up indignation against the Bishops and to paint lurid pictures of illegalities which have been going on in the Church, with the suggestion that those illegalities will be made legal if this Book is passed. I believe myself that this campaign will go down to history as a classic example of that advocacy which utilises abuse of your opponents and misrepresentation—
  HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!
  Mr. SPEAKER: The remark of the hon. and learned Member, whatever it was, entirely escaped me. Perhaps hon. Members will allow the hon. and learned Member who is addressing the House to proceed, so that they may hear whether he has anything further to say on that point.
  Mr. ATKINSON: I was speaking, as I carefully explained, of the campaign against this Book. I carefully said that I did not know to what extent the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for it, and that I hoped he would believe that I made no suggestion of want of good faith or of sincerity against him, but I must repeat, and I believe, that the campaign has been based upon misrepresentation of what the Book does. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is my opinion, and I cannot withdraw it. I believe, too, that

  1213
  this campaign has been responsible in no small measure for the baseless fears of many earnest people. In this matter sincerity must not be mistaken for truth, and narrowness of view for breadth of vision. Any consideration of this Book must start with an appreciation of the fact that 22 years ago a Royal Commission said that the law of public worship was too narrow, and that it needlessly condemned much which a great section of Church people, including many of their most devoted members, desired. That fact surely lays bare of truth the statement which has been made that it has been left to the Bishops in the last 15 years to discover and announce to a bewildered laity that the Prayer Book is defective and inadequate. Surely that is an unfair charge against the Bishops. It is the answer to what was the main argument of the right hon. Gentleman in the last Debate, an argument which is really repeated to-day. The right hon. Gentleman drew a picture of a great number of obviously illegal invitations to adoration, and he complained that the Bishops had not dealt with those illegalities, and went on to say:
  "Because they have failed to deal with them, they say 'No, we will not try to enforce the law, we will change the law in order to bring it into consonance with their ideas.'"—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 15th December, 1927; col. 2545, Vol. 211.]
  That is quoted from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. Observe the implication. It is said that the Bishops themselves are saying the whole object of this is to make legal these illegalities, and are only doing it because they are not prepared to deal with them. The Bishops never said any such thing, and if they had it would have been untrue. Not one of the illegalities of which the right hon. Gentleman is complaining is made legal by this Measure. Every one of them remains illegal, and, indeed, more emphatically illegal than they were before.
  For my part, I resent the attitude of suspicion and distrust which has been generated against the Bishops. The genesis of this Book is in the report of the Royal Commission and not in the Bishops; it is in answer to the invitation of the Government of that day that the Church of England to-day presents to this House the results, results full of beauty and understanding for those
  1214
  that have eyes to see, the work of men deeply versed in these matters, daily, I am convinced, asking—and as my faith teaches me to believe receiving—the guidance of God. Even if I were not convinced, as I am, of the truth and justice of this Book, I should hesitate to prefer my, as compared with their, untutored judgment; and yet in this matter I claim to be as fully tutored as most of the hon. Members of this House. Who is to decide questions of doctrinal change? Am I to personify arrogance and say to the Church, "I deny you spiritual freedom; although you and your appointed assemblies and your divines say this, I say you are all wrong"? And what if the "I" be not even a member of that Church? Surely we should hesitate long before we reject the work which they have produced for us. No one can have studied the speeches delivered in this House on the last occasion without a feeling of despair that a decision of so high importance should have been arrived at on such a want of appreciation of the facts.
  The opposition to the Book centres on two things. The Book permits two things of importance needlessly condemned by the law as it stands, that is the use of Vestments and the Reservation for the Sick and the Dying. It is said that the permission of these two things coupled with certain alteration of words in the Consecration Prayer imply a doctrinal change in the direction of Rome. It is said that is a step in the direction of transubstantiation. We know that the Archbishops and the Bishops have quite definitely said that no change of doctrine is involved, and as the "Times" has said, there is an overwhelming consensus of theological opinion to the effect that no change of doctrine is involved. On the other hand the Home Secretary says there is. On the last occasion and again to-day the right hon. Gentleman has said that his view was supported by that of Lord Parmoor, a great ecclesiastical lawyer. The right hon. Gentleman stated that Lord Parmoor said quite definitely that the new Book did introduce a great change of doctrine. But why has the House not been told that Lord Parmoor has withdrawn that opinion? Several days before the Debate in December, Lord Parmoor said that while that had been his opinion, he now

  1215
  accepted in all sincerity the view expressed by the Archbishop of Canterbury when he assured them that in the opinion of the Bishops there was no new doctrine whatever in the alternative service, and although that opinion had been withdrawn long before that Debate and withdrawn of course long before to-day's Debate, we are left—I am certain through ignorance—in the belief that my right hon. Friend's view is supported by that great authority.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I need hardly say that I had not heard of that withdrawal, but Lord Parmoor himself has within the last week written me enclosing a copy of a letter which he wrote to the "Manchester Guardian" this month in which he asks whether it is wise to re-open the controversy at the present time, and, so far from protesting, he agrees that the proposed changes in the Revised Prayer Book do materially affect the practice of Reservation. That does not look as if he had withdrawn his opinion.
  Mr. ATKINSON: I do not see a word there bearing upon my point as to whether he thought there had been a change of doctrine. I took this from the "Times" of Tuesday or Wednesday before the Debate in this House, and it is taken from a report of the speech of Lord Parmoor in another place. On the last occasion my right hon. Friend also quoted Father Woodlock, and this was referred to yesterday, in which he said:
  "If you want another authority as to the change of doctrine everyone knows Father Woodcock, the well-known Jesuit priest."
  The quotation which was referred to yesterday was:
  "That the new alternative order of Communion included elements which quite definitely brought it into line with the Mass."
  I have a letter from Father Woodlock which with the permission of the House I will read and then we shall see how far it expresses his view. He writes:
  "DEAR MR. ATKINSON,
  Some words of mine apropos the Alternative Communion Office in the Deposited Book have been more than once used for propaganda purposes and quoted in the House of Commons Debates last December and yesterday against the declaration of the Archbishops that the Eucharistic Doctrines of the 1662 Book have not been changed. I should like to draw your
  1216
  attention to the real views I expressed in my lectures and to emphasise the importance of the omission of a qualifying passage which has not been quoted in the House and which I believe ought to make it impossible for anyone to use my words either on one side or the other in the present Debate.
  I noted the introduction of certain prayers after the words of consecration 'This is My Body, etc.,' as 'including elements, previously lacking, which seem to me definitely to bring the service in line with the Mass." This was the sentence which has been extensively quoted and which was used by the Home Secretary in his speech last December. However, a little further on I say of these additions:
  'I have said that these prayers are capable of being interpreted in a Catholic sense. They are also capable of being interpreted in a purely Calvinistic and Evangelical sense and so may be still said to be characteristically Anglican and Comprehensive.'
  This was the point which I emphasised in my lecture, the comprehensiveness through ambiguity of phrasing. The last sentence of the page and of my book restated the thesis I was proving throughout. It runs:
  'The vaunted comprehensiveness of Anglicanism is the most patent sign that it is not Catholic.'
  I should not venture to bother you with my personal views except for the fact that my words detached from their context have been widely used by opponents of the Deposited Book, and I feel that to tell Protestants that a Jesuit has recognised the introduction of the Roman Mass in the Alternative Communion Office is to secure a good debating point against the Book. As a matter of fact the many and wide concessions to Modernist heresy in the Deposited Book remove the Anglican Church still further from Rome than did the Book of 1662, and erect another and a permanent obstacle to anything in the nature of 'reunion' with Rome."
  The Archbishop of Wales has been referred to. I have a telegram from the Bishop of Swansea in which he says:
  "In common with the great majority of the Welsh church people, they entirely repudiate the Archbishop's views on the Book."
  We were told yesterday that the Bishop of Llandaff and the Bishop of Monmouth both support the Book. Therefore, there does not seem very much left in the way of authority quoted to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred in support of there being a change of doctrine involved in this Book. There are two matters I want to deal with. It was pointed out yesterday that if you consider the Consecration Prayer

  1217
  that the words used are practically a copy of the words of Cranmer's Prayer Book of 1549. We know that the two views accepted by the Church as legitimate and orthodox are first the receptionist view, that is the view that Consecration merely hallows the Bread and Wine so that it becomes to the receiver the Blood of Christ; and side by side with that there is the view of the real spiritual Presence which accepts the view that Christ is spiritually present in the Bread and Wine that have been consecrated. My hon. Friend seems to take the attitude that those who hold this view, hold it inconsistently with the formulae of the Church of England, but I would like to point out that it has been decided by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that that view is just as legitimate and orthodox as the receptionist view held by the Evangelical side of the Church. My right hon. Friend cannot complain of an appeal to Cranmer, because one of the complaints in his book is that Cranmer has not been canonised as the man more than anyone else responsible for our Prayer Book. He explained in his own language exactly what the doctrine of the Reformation was. He said:
  "That the Bread and Wine he made unto us the Body and Blood of Christ, not by change of substance, but that in the godly using of them they may be to the receivers Christ's Body and Blood."
  Those are the same words as in the Invocation Prayer of Cranmer's Prayer Book of 1549, where the Holy Spirit is called upon
  "to bless and sanctify the Bread and Wine that they may be unto us the Body and Blood"—
  and, as in the Deposited Book,
  "that they may be unto us the Body and Blood of Thy Son, to the end that we receiving the same may he strengthened and refreshed both in body and soul."
  They emphasise the receptionist view and so lead us still further from the view of Rome. In our present Prayer Book you have precisely the same view in slightly different words. Anyone comparing these three prayers cannot possibly see any departure from the accepted Reformation doctrines. When you read my right hon. Friend's book you see what he relies upon in support of his contention, and what does it amount to?
  1218
  He specifically objects to the words appearing in the Consecration Prayer:
  "That they may be unto us the Body and Blood of Christ."
  and again the words:
  "Having now by faith received the precious Body and Blood of Christ."
  Those are the words which we find in Cranmer's Prayer Book and in the 39 Articles themselves. You cannot reject those words, you cannot reject the doctrine of the new Prayer Book unless you reject the doctrines of the church, the 39 Articles, the Catechism and the Prayer of Humble Access. You find every word in this Book finding its place somewhere in the Book which is at present our Prayer Book.
  I pass now to the question of vestments. On the last occasion with a wealth of eloquence which was the envy of us all but with a wealth of inaccuracy at least its equal, the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. R. Mitchell) dealt with vestments and he dealt with the same subject again yesterday. What did he say? He said that these ornaments were
  "definitely, historically, and ecclesiastically confined and restricted to a celebration in which we pre-suppose the Real Presence by the transference of the elements."
  That was Transubstantiation. It is true that the Book permits the use of the alb with the vestment or cope. Of course I agree that the vestment referred t3 is the chasuble. There is nothing mysterious about this liturgical dress or sacred vestments. They are simply an adaptation to religious use of the ordinary dress of official life in the Roman Empire in the first, centuries of our era. They are of value mainly from the fact that they bear witness to the antiquity of the Church. What is the historical association? The alb and the chasuble were in use for centuries before Transubstantiation was born or thought of. That doctrine was first formulated in 1215 by Innocent IV. These vestments had then been in use for centuries in this country. The House will appreciate that our Church is the same Church as existed at the Reformation. There has been no new Church. The Church had always resisted the claims of papal domination, sometimes with more success than at others. The Constitutional Reformation was completed in the reign of Henry VIII.

  1219
  and the Doctrinal Reformation which followed culminated in the great reformed Prayer Book of Cranmer in 1549. No one will deny that the whole object of the Book was to mark the culmination of the Reformation, and no one will deny that it was intended to mark the rejection of Transubstantiation. What do we find in that Book with regard to vestments?
  "The priest shall"—
  not "may"—
  "put upon him the vesture appointed for that ministration, that is to say, a white alb plain, with a vestment, or cope."
  5.0 p.m.
  Precisely the same words as are to-day in the Deposited Book; precisely the same words are in the Reformation Prayer Book of Cranmer, but whereas they are now optional, then they were compulsory. It is true that they did not find a place in the Prayer Book of 1552, but in the second Elizabethan Book of 1559 they are again enjoined, because there the rubric says that they are to wear such ornaments as were in use by the authority of Parliament in the second year of the reign of King Edward VI. That referred to the Act of Parliament which made compulsory Cranmer's Prayer Book. Cranmer's Book of 1549 and Elizabeth's Book of 1559 both enjoin and make compulsory the use of these very vestments, and, in our own Prayer Book, the Prayer Book of 1662, you find the same thing.
  "Such ornaments shall be retained and be in use as were in the Church of England by the authority of Parliament of the second year of the reign of Edward VI."
  You may say, if that is so, how did the Privy Council in the case of Hebbert v. Purchar find that the use of these ornaments was illegal? They were persuaded, in the teeth of the language in the Book of 1662, that Parliament could not have meant to make these vestments compulsory when the surplice was the vestment more usually worn. They were the more easily persuaded, because only one side was heard. The parson who was being prosecuted had no money to enable him to appear, and the argument was all on one side; but Sir Hebbert Phillimore in the Court of Arches who heard the case first decided that these things were legal. In one other case the same
  1220
  view has been taken, but there it was almost impossible for them to depart from the decision already given. It was not technically impossible, but it would have been an incredible thing for the Judicial Committee to overrule a decision given by themselves a few years before.
  It does not rest there. The Church was not content with that, and at the beginning of this century a Committee of Bishops was appointed, who went into the matter very thoroughly and issued a most convincing report which, I think, will satisfy anybody, and they came to the conclusion that it was impossible to support these decisions. The point is not whether they are legal or illegal; the point is whether the use of these vestments really does necessarily imply anything in connection with Transubstantiation. I say, in view of the history of vestments, to say that it does is to say that black is white. You might as well say that because murderers wear boots, anybody who wears boots is wearing something which is historically associated with murder. When the hon. Member speaks of "Mass" vestments, the description is his, it is not the description of history. May we test the question of Reservation in the same way? The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General, speaking in the last Debate, said that everyone was prepared to accept the whole of the Deposited Book with the exception of that part concerned with Holy Communion, and he said the whole question turned upon Reservation, that the whole issue was Reservation and the doctrine implied in the practice. He swept away the great bulk of the objections which bad been urged against the Deposited Book, and he reduced them all to the one question of Reservation. Reservation has been the practice of the Church certainly from the second century. We find it referred to in the writings of the Early Fathers. You find it enforced by canons in this country. In the year 760, there is a canon enjoining Reservation for the benefit of the sick.
  When you come again to Cranmer's Prayer Book, you find there a Rubric ordering Reservation for the sick. Is it credible that one who gave his life because of his rejection of Transubstantia-

  1221
  tion would have inserted this rubric in his book—a book which he thought so perfect that he said he "could in no point improve that Godly Book"—if he had thought that Reservation implied in any way an acceptance of Transubstantiation? It is true that the permission does not find a place in later Prayer Books; but we know that Bishop Curzon, who more than anyone was responsible for the Rubric in the present book, explained these words by saying that that was done to prevent the taking away of the consecrated wine and bread by anyone for sacriligeous use at their tables. Herbert Thorndyke and Bishop Sparrow, two of the members of the body responsible for the Prayer Book, wrote of Reservation as entirely legal and permissible. In the Episcopal Church of Scotland, a Church which accepts the Thirty-nine Articles and our own Rubrics, the practice has been continuous since 1688, without any of the results which have been spoken of. It is the practice accepted in the Church in America, in Canada, and in South Africa. Something was said about the sister Churches. Our sister Churches accept Reservation and, by accepting it, we will be bringing ourselves into line with them, and not doing something which will take us away from them.
  Before I pass to the point of where this demand comes from, I would like to deal with the point which was made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General in the last Debate. He made a statement which, I think, will not bear examination. He referred to the Article which says that the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved and carried about, lifted out, or worshipped, and he said that that Article forbids Reservation. Possibly it does; but I deprecate the argument which he founded upon it, because he only told us half the story. Article 34 declares
  "that every particular or national church has authority to ordain, change or abolish ceremonies or rites of the Church ordained by man's authority."
  So that, if you read the two together, it is perfectly plain that Reservation is one of those matters ordained by man and as such can be permitted, regulated, and dealt with by any particular Church. Therefore, we are not doing anything
  1222
  contrary to the Thirty-nine Articles if we avail ourselves of the permission contained in Article 34. From where does the demand for Reservation come? You can divide your clergy into three classes; first, these who do not want it, because they have no use for it; second, there are those who want it because of the desire of their parishioners, who demand the administration of Holy Communion when they are sick, and still more when they are facing death. The third class is the class of those who want it not merely for Reservation for the sick but for ulterior purposes. The demand for Reservation does not come from that class. They know that, if the Deposited Book were accepted, there is an end to their illegality. That is the reason why the extreme Anglo-Catholics are against it. Is it not perfectly obvious that they do not regard this Book as giving -Clem what they want, and that the demand does not come from them? The demand comes from those who want it for the sick and the dying.
  Let us face the facts. Is it the case that they want to attach some new or different meaning to their Church's doctrine? No such thing. It is well known that in recent years, in many parishes, a greater use has been made of Holy Communion. It is inevitable, where people who are accustomed to communicate are sick or are facing death, that they will call upon the priest to administer Communion to them. What is the priest to do? What can he do? This desire in the heart; of his parishioners is the very best proof of the efficacy and the success of his work. It is that for which he has been striving. Is he to refuse it? Take the priest who may have as many as 30 or 40 calls from the sick of his parish at one time. He cannot possibly meet those demands if on every occasion he has to go through the whole service. The House will remember that, at the present time, the whole Service has to be read, and that the priest has to communicate himself. No one can think it right that a priest should be forced to communicate 30 or 40 rimes a, week. The suggestion that any change of doctrine is involved is surely absurd. A man who is ill or dying has no thought of doctrine in his mind. He merely wants to hear again, perhaps for the last time, the words of comfort and hope.

  1223
  To suggest that this Reservation is implying change of doctrine is, I submit, absurd. I say affirmatively that the permission of this practice is to be desired. It ought to be permitted on its merits, and because it is right and meets a real, legitimate demand. If you think it is right, and that it ought to be done on the same day, why is it wrong if it is done on the second day? What difference of doctrine does it make to me if I receive Communion in bed or at the Lord's table? Neither in the heart of the priest nor in the heart of the recipient is there any idea of change of doctrine. The priest hurries away from Church to administer to a parishioner on the other side of the road. Is there any change of doctrine? If not, then what is this change? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) put a dilemma before us on the last occasion which does not arise. It was based upon a premise that was altogether false. He said that either the promoters of the Measure are touching no material point of doctrine, are doing something so small that they will satisfy no one, or they are making a doctrinal change. As if there could be nothing big, nothing satisfying unless it involved doctrine! For the overworked earnest priest this is more than big—it is necessity—but it is not doctrine. What we are asking for is that the priest should be able to bring consolation to the sick and dying. If it be the Christian duty of our Church to be in a position to administer Holy Communion to the sick and dying, are we to shirk that duty, because we fear that sometimes an improper use may be made of the Reserved Elements? That surely is a strange argument to advance. Do you forbid motoring because some motorists may drive to the danger of the public and because it leaves in its train a huge death-roll? Surely the logical attitude is: make your law, make it clear, make it reasonable, and then enforce it.
  The nation spends millions a year on the physical comforts of the sick and dying. Is this House to deny them spiritual comfort I ask the House to remember the accident wards in the hospitals. Many hon. Members, perhaps, have not had much experience of them, but at any moment of the day or night
  1224
  a man may be brought there,, and on his bed of suffering he may be longing for the last time for the Body and Blood of Christ. No doctrine touches him; he only wants to receive the Bread and Wine and hear once again those words of comfort. There is no time for more, and, if there were, he could not bear it. I ask the House, is a great national Church to say to that man, "No, we cannot help you; you must not turn to us; you must send for a. Roman Catholic priest or die alone"? For myself, I believe that the safeguards are adequate. I believe that the great bulk of the extremists will loyally accept them, but if any man has once sat by the bedside of someone dying, someone knowing that he was dying and longing for the priest to come, he would not vote against this Book. Sincerity in this matter is not confined to those who are against this Book. We claim our due share of it, and though I know that there is much for which I shall bow my head in shame when I stand at a greater Bar than this, I thank God that enough has come my way to save me from a vote against this Measure.
  Mr. GEORGE THORNE: The Home Secretary this afternoon expressed, and I am sure received the sympathy of the whole House in expressing, the difficulty of the position that he occupied in addressing it on the lines that he did. I am sure that the whole House must recognise, not only his sincerity, but his courage, in undertaking such a task and performinig it in the way that he did. For my part, I am not asking the House to listen to me for a very few moments because I have any personal desire to speak. If I consulted my personal desires on such a question as this, I should not only not speak, but should not vote either. I wish I could be free of all concern with this great trouble to which the Church has been put, and the nation, too; but I am a citizen of this country, I am a representative of my constituents, and if, with such a grave issue before us, I refused to speak or refused to vote, that, on my part —I am not judging others—would be an act of cowardice. Therefore, I take my part, with whatever consequences may ensue. I think, however, that for the most part I can render the best service in this Debate, not by following the lines which have already been taken yesterday and to-day, but

  1225
  particularly speaking from my own standpoint; I would like to make one preliminary remark.
  We have been told, however, that this Book is the result of 20 years' long and arduous work. I always recognise arduous and devoted work, no matter by whom, and, when sympathy is asked for devoted men—for I cast no aspersions on anybody in this matter, because I believe that all are striving to act sincerely and honestly—when sympathy is asked, I am one of the last men to refuse a response to such an appeal. But, if sympathy is to govern the line that we take on this great issue, there are conflicting sympathies, and my sympathies, under those conditions, do not go in the direction of those who make the appeal. My sympathies go out to the tens of thousands of devoted, faithful, churchmen and churchwomen up and down the country who, I know, are troubled in their hearts by this Book, and who believe, rightly or wrongly, that by its proposals their Church is being undermined and they are practically losing the faith of their fathers. If sympathy were to govern this matter, my sympathy would go in that direction. But it seems to me that it is dangerous from any standpoint to talk of sympathy at the expense of principle. There are great principles involved in this issue, and the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) seemed to me to utterly fail to face those principles. The hon. and learned Member seemed to be talking about a domestic Church of his own; he appeared to be simply talking with other members of that Church and arguing with them, and seemed altogether to forget that his Church is a Church which has priority. I am one of those who believe in absolute equality for all aspects of religious thought.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Hear, hear!
  Mr. THORNE: I want all men to be perfectly free to worship God according to their conscience. We have shown our determination to secure that by ourselves going out from the Church, or rather, refusing to join it on conscientious grounds, and have become Nonconformists; and we have paid the price of our nonconformity. Let those who want that
  1226
  which is regarded as contrary to the general feelings of the Church pay the same price. Why should we and our fathers before us be deprived of the rights and privileges of the Established Church when it appears that the trouble within the Established Church is not due to Nonconformists outside the Church, but is caused by nonconformists inside the Church I How they have been able to do it I do not understand. We are outside because we cannot conform. We understood that they joined because they could conform, and yet they are the nonconformists who produce all this trouble. I take this House to witness, I take the country to witness, that this great trouble, which is not ended yet, has not been brought about by the Nonconformists outside the Church, but has been brought about by the nonconformists inside the Church. It is about time, if they will not obey the Church's ordinances, that they should realise that they should do what we have done, that is to say, clain the right and the freedom for which my hon. and gallant Friend asks. Let them, in a Church of their own, follow their own conscience and do as we have done in that direction.
  I want to make my position clear. I do not believe in the Establishment; I never have believed in it. I have never felt able to believe in it, not because I think so little of religion, but because I think so much of it. Religion is the one supreme thing which cannot be established. Religion never has been established, and never can be established; all that has been done has been to establish a form of religion; and the result of that is this: That supreme thing, religion, which is the only thing in our life that can ever unite mankind, can only do so in the spirit. The moment it is reduced to a form it is made, not a unifying force, but a dividing one, and you have the Conformists on the one hand and the Nonconformists on the other—a result which, to ray mind, is detrimental to religion and. to the State. Therefore, on principle, I am opposed utterly to any Establishment at all.
  Holding that view, I was in my early days one of those who, I think, were described as militant Nonconformists. We took our stand definitely on the principle that it was not fair or just that one Church should have any priority over

  1227
  any other, but that all should have equality before the law. Many years ago the Free Church Council was formed, and, in the formation of that Free Church Council, as I have understood it, the members of the Free Churches determined, at present at any rate, to emphasise the positive aspect of their faith rather than the negative aspect. Since that time, not abating any of our views and convictions, we have been acquiescent in the State Church. We do not accept it in principle, but we have been acquiescent, and that is why it is that there is no religious strife from outside; all the religious strife in the Church is from inside. We have not raised this question; it has been raised by the members of the Church's own household; but we have watched the course of events, and some of us have felt that our conscientious convictions have been greatly concerned. When I have heard in this House of what is supposed to be authorised by the present Constitution of the Church, and what is still going on, apparently, unconstitutionally in the Church, I am sorely troubled and strained as to what one's duty is; but my position, very respectfully, is this, that I desire to continue in that acquiescence which the Free Churches have manifested during the last 20 years.
  If we were what some people charge us with being, namely, merely political nonconformists, we would take advantage of the Church's troubles now, and come out ourselves directly on behalf of Disestablishment. I do not wish to do anything of the kind; I want to continue as I have been doing, and to be able still to acquiesce in this established form of religion. But we have only acquiesced in it because we have assumed all through that the Church established by law is a Reformed Church. If it is not a Reformed Church, if the intention is to go back on the Reformation, the limits of our acquiescence are passed, and we are compelled to follow our own convictions as citizens and say that we will not any longer assent to a Church under those conditions anal involving such practices, which, while we recognise the right of others in a Free Church to follow them, we absolutely refuse to recognise to-day in an Established Church. We should have no other course but to
  1228
  carry on that fight, and so we watch this Debate with the keenest anxiety.
  If this Measure is thrown out again, as I believe it ought to be, we will continue in our acquiescence, we will leave the troubles in the Church to be decided by the Church. It may, however, be that this Measure, unhappily, will be passed. I am not trying to study mere details, like the hon. and learned Member for Altrincham, but am watching the grave trend of events. The issue is between two tendencies and between two trends. Which is the trend of the Church to-day? Is it in the direction pro-Reformation or anti-Reformation? It is one or the other. As far as we can see, it is now anti-Reformation, and if that is the trend you leave us no alternative. We cannot go back on the principles we have held so long and must maintain as long as we live. We do not want religious strife, and I say as a man advanced in years, with but little time left, the one thing I crave for more than all else is religious progress. I want with all my strength to prevent the recurrence of religious strife. If religious strife comes, not only religion but social reform will be hampered. I put the two together, religious progress and social progress, and I do not want strife in State or Church to hinder either. If this course be taken, it seems to me we shall have no alternative, those of us who hold the views I do, and which I am trying respectfully to present, but to revive that old militant Nonconformity as the only course whereby we can justify our actions and our principles.
  I may be asked, Am I speaking purely for myself? I speak my own views according to my own convictions, but I think I represent the views of the Free Churches much more than certain very prominent Nonconformists who have found it necessary—I have not done so—to write letters to the "Times" expressing their sympathy and advising what should be done. I think they are entirely out of accord with the trend of the Free Churches with which they are identified. I hold in my hand the copy of a cablegram which comes from Dr. J. D. Jones and Dr. Sidney Berry, who are heading the Congregational pilgrimage to America, and they have cabled:
  "Dr. J. D. Jones and Dr. Berry desire to state that Dr. Selbie's letter to the

  1229
  "Times" and his speech to Nonconformist M.Ps. in support of the revised Prayer Book represent a purely personal position. It not only does not represent Congregationalism but flatly contradicts the considered judgment of the denomination as expressed in the resolution passed by the Congregational Union Assembly in May. Dr. Jones and Dr. Berry are anxious that the position of Congregationalism should not again be misrepresented in Parliament."
  I am not a Congregationalist. I am a Baptist, and I merely refer to that fact because the name of one Member of this House is put down to the Motion in favour of this Measure, and he is a Baptist Minister. I am a Baptist layman, but I claim that I represent the Baptist denomination far better, in the view I am taking, than he does. I hold in my hand a letter that I have received from my friend Mr. Aubrey, the Secretary of the Baptist Union. He says in it:
  "The great point to impress is that the few Free Churchmen who have written to the "Times" represent hardly anybody but themselves. The Federal Council of the Free Churches, the Free Church Council, the Congregational Union, the Baptists and other Free Church bodies have all passed resolutions opposing the Book that allows of Reservation, The overwhelming mass of Free Church opinion is against it, and Members of Parliament ought to he in no sort of doubt about that."
  I think I have fairly represented those views, and I therefore conclude with one word. This is not the first time this matter has been before the House. We had it last year. We gave it the most deliberate and careful consideration. We came to a definite decision. We are told on high authority that what is before us is the same thing to all intents and purposes as what was before us then. Are we going to stultify ourselves by giving a different vote now from the vote we gave then on absolutely -the same matter? It is not only the stability of the Church that is at stake. It is also the stability of our great representative institution, the House of Commons, that is at stake. The country looks to this House for some stability of judgment, that we are not pulled here and there by any passing movement, that cur judgments are firm judgments guiding us in the votes we give, and if in December last we refused this Measure and now, in June, accept it, what will be the opinion of the country as to their con-
  1230
  fidence in a House which does not know its own mind six months together? In the interest of the House, in the interest, as I believe, of your Church, I am here opposing this Measure and I can do no other, therefore, than give my vote against it.
  Lord HUGH CECIL.: The hon. Member who has just spoken began his speech, like other speakers, by commenting on the allegation that this Measure is quite unchanged, as many great authorities have said. I think there is a certain confusion of thought about the changes that have been introduced into the Book and into the Measure. From the point of view of the Church Assembly and of the supporters of the Book, the changes are not of essential importance. They clew- up misunderstandings and that is all. But from the point of view of those who opposed the Book last December—the majority of the House—some, at any rate, of the changes are of essential importance—of the most vital and far-reaching importance. Take, for example, the inclusion of the Black Rubric. We were told last December by speakers Gf great authority, by amongst others the present 'Lord Chancellor, then Sir Douglas Hogg, who spoke with great power against the Measure and who very largely founded himself upon the allegation, that whether it was intended or not, the Book vas in favour of Transubstantiation because the Black Rubric was not repeated at the end of the new form of Communion Service. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Londonderry (Sir M. Macnaghten) took a similar line. It is not open to them to deny that now, t any rate, it is perfectly clear that there is not Transubstantiation in the new Book or the new Measure. From their point of view a change of the most far-reaching character has been made, because whereas in their judgment under the old Book it contained the. danger of Transubstantiation, now by the remedy prescribed by themselves having been adopted, aid by the insertion of the Black Rubric, which they thought a complete safeguard against Transubstantiation, the danger of which they were afraid has been wholly averted. It is just the same with other things. The changes in the new Book explain misapprehensimis quite sincerely felt, and treated therefore rightly with the utmost

  1231
  possible respect. Take, again, the second Rubric in regard to Reservation, which has given offence to some extreme Anglo-Catholics. There, again, some people were afraid that the Sacrament would be allowed to be reserved, that licence would be given for its reservation when it was needed for some purpose of Adoration and not merely for the Communion for the sick. The Rubric is therefore developed and set out at full length, so that it might be clear that it is for the Communion of the sick, and for no other purpose. From the point of view of supporters of the Measure that is mere explanation, but from the point of view of opponents, who are anxious to know whether the Measure really was limited to Communion of the sick, it is surely an important change, because it makes it abundantly clear that it was only for Communion of the sick that Reservation was to be allowed.
  I listened with great attention and profound respect to the very interesting speech of the Home Secretary, but very little of it seemed to have any bearing on the Measure. It had interesting historical theories. We had great praise of Parliament. We had a long, very able attack upon the Anglo-Catholic movement. We had some criticisms, though not so many as last December, upon episcopal action. All these things may be right or wrong, but they do not seem to me to be arguments for voting against the Measure to-night. If the Home Secretary's speech were logically pursued—though I do not suspect that he would pursue it logically—it would lead to driving the whole High Church party out of the Church of England. We are not going to vote about that to-night. I do not believe more than a very few Members of the House in the least desire any such result. Nor are we going to impeach the Bishops. If we were to go back to the precedents of the sixteenth century, that would have been a quite possible course. We might have a Bill of pains and penalties depriving the Bishop of London of his Bishopric, and it would be interesting to hear his defence, I admit. But that is not the proposal. The Bishops are there, good or bad. If there is to be any discipline in the Church, any order in the Church, any peace in the Church, it must be under
  1232
  episcopal supervision. The question really is whether you can expect good government in the Church if you refuse the governors of the Church the change in machinery which they declare by an overwhelming majority they regard as indispensable. I cannot believe that anyone, setting aside all theories about Church and State and 'the like, and just looking at the plain facts of the case, who recognises that the Bishops have in fact to do the job—no one can do it for them; no one can do it but them; no one can guide and rule and lead the Church except the Bishops—can doubt that it is a very imprudent thing to refuse their well-considered plans, twice carefully reviewed and sent up by overwhelming majorities with the concurrence of the clergy and laity.
  When I hear the hon. Gentleman say that those who do not conform to the point of view of the Church should leave the Church, does he realise that this Measure has been supported in every diocesan conference in England before which it has come, including two diocesan conferences, at any rate, where the Bishop was opposed, and has been carried by majorities of clergy and laity in every diocesan conference except the laity at Liverpool, who were against it? What is the sense of saying that people should leave the Church? I do not say anything of the kind. If anybody was to leave the Church it would be the Home Secretary. On that reasoning, he is the person to leave the Church. I want to answer three questions very briefly. Does this alter the doctrine of the Church? Does it make for order? Does it make for peace? These are the three questions which our votes have to decide. I say that it does not change the doctrine of the Church, for this doctrine has always been the doctrine expressed in the Consecration Prayer, always held and always taught in the Church of England. The Solicitor-General referred to but did not read the very striking summary of Eucharistic teaching of the services in Archbishop Temple and Archbishop Maclagan's answer to the Pope, a document of very great importance, written no doubt after consultation with other Bishops. It was addressed to all the Bishops in the Catholic Church, and was a pronouncement of very unusual importance and of an official character.

  1233
  What they state is almost exactly what the new Prayer Book expressly says. I will read as little as possible:
  "Further we truly teach the doctrine of Eucharistic Sacrifice and do not believe it to be a nude commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Crows,' an opinion which seems to he attributed to us by the quotation made from that Council. But we think it sufficient in the Liturgy which we use in celebrating the Holy Eucharist—while lifting up our hearts to the Lord, and when now consecrating the gifts already offered that they may become to us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ,"—
  These are actually the very words to which so much objection is often taken in the New Prayer—
  "to signify the sacrifice is offered at that point of the service in such terms as these. We continue a perpetual memory of the precious death of Christ, who is our Advocate with the Father and the propitiation of our sins, according to His precept, until His coming again. For first we offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; then next we plead and represent before the Father the sacrifice of the cross, and by it we confidently entreat the remission of sins and all other benefits of the Lord's Passion for the whole Church; and lastly we offer the sacrifice of ourselves to the Creator of all things which we have already signified by the oblations of His creatures. This whole action, in which the people has necessarily to take its part with the Priest, we are accustomed to call the Eucharistic sacrifice."
  No one who reads that can have the least doubt that there is no difference in doctrine whatever between the old Prayer Book and the doctrine expressed in the alternative Prayer allowed in the New Book. The case is perfectly plain. I could quote a great deal more, but it takes up too much time. One quotation I will repeat, because it comes from Bishop Ridley, and he speaks in these words:
  "The heavenly Lamb is, as I confess, on the Table: hut by a spiritual presence and not after any corporeal presence of the flesh."
  That, again, perfectly conforms with the language of the New Book. Both the Church of England and the Church of Rome maintain the reality of Consecration. It is about the effect of Consecration about which there is a certain degree of disagreement. The question is, Does it cause Transubstantiation Y It is perfectly clear to anyone who reads the Deposited Book that it is not touched by that Book, because after Consecration
  1234
  the Elements are always spoken of as bread and wine. In the 16th century Transubstantiation implied that the bread had lost its metaphysical character, not its character in respect of the matter susceptible to the senses, but its metaphysical essence, what was called its substance, and therefore it was no longer, after Consecration, true bread. That was made then the test of the acceptance or rejection of Transubstantiation, and it is perfectly clear that the New Book plainly defines tie position. The bread is after Consecration, as before, true bread. I pass from these points, as I am anxious to get on to one other quotation from Bishop Wilson, a great divine of the 11th cent try. He was a very great man, one of the great Anglican saints and also, interestingly, he was ordained a priest in 1689, and was made Bishop of Sodor and Man by the Lord Derby of the day, who was then Lord of Man, about 1697. He left certain private devotions, a page or two of which he devoted to the Lord's Supper. This is how he began:
  "Private devotions at the Altar, taken out of the most ancient Offices of the Church, to render our present Communion Service more agreeable to apostolic usage, and more acceptable (I hope) to God, and beneficial to all that partake thereof. Until it shall please God to put it into the hearts and power of such as ought to do it, to restore to us the first service of Edward VI., or such as shall be more conformable to the appointment of Christ and His Apostles, and their successors. Which may the Divine Majesty vouchsafe to grant for His sake Who first ordained this Holy Sacrament."
  That is a prayer that may be said to be granted by the present proposals. He says in his private prayers immediately after the Prayer of Consecration:
  "We give Thee thanks for these and for all Thy mercies; beseeching Thee to send down Thy Holy Spirit upon This Sacrifice, that He may make this bread the Body of Thy Christ, and this cup the Blood of Thy Christ … and that all we, who are partakers thereof, may thereby obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of His Passion."
  That goes lather further, of course, than the Prayer in the Deposited Book. It calls attention to one thing, that the Prayer is taken from the primitive Church. Yesterday we had some people talking of it as a Protestant and some as a Roman Catholic Prayer. They missed the point of it. It goes far beyond the

  1235
  controversies of the 16th century, back to the primitive Church. The hon. and learned Member for Londonderry, said that the Irish Church was committed to the position of looking to the primitive Church for guidance. I forget the phrase he quoted. If you look to the primitive Church for guidance, this is taken straight from the primitive Church. If we were to go back to those great councils which settled the Nicene Creed, if the Home Secretary and I had been assisting, as in that age we no doubt should, we should have been summoned, not as members of the Council, which was confined to Bishops, but no doubt as laity for advice as attendants upon the Emperor Constantine or one of the other Emperors. If we had been there and had gone to Church, we should have heard a prayer very like the prayer put forward in the new Book.
  It is asked how did this originate? Whom is it to please? It is to please the moderate, law-abiding, reasonable Anglo-Catholic party, not the extreme party, who do not like it and reject it. If anyone has read Bishop Gore's very interesting work on these subjects called "The Body of Christ," they will find that certain changes in the Service are sketched in the last chapter. I need not say that he entirely rejects the doctrine of Transubstantiation. This Prayer Book was desired not in order to effect the change of doctrine but to give a more acceptable devotional expression to the doctrine that was already dealt with.
  As to Reservation, we are told that you never can have Reservation without Adoration. Yet people seem hardly to be aware that Reservation existed in the Catholic Church. Beginning as far back as the second century, and going right on, there was no Adoration at all during all those centuries until the 11th century. In the Eastern Church there has never been any corporate Adoration of the Sacrament. I have been told by someone that even in the Russian Church—I do not know whether it was in the other Eastern Churches—no sign of the Adoration of the Sacrament is made. An Anglican layman wished to see, and the priest said, "I will show it to you, because I know you know our customs," meaning that he knew he would see no
  1236
  signs of Adoration of the Sacrament when it was unveiled. It was very carefully wrapped up and concealed. So he saw it. I mention that story to show that it is not at all true that the practice of Adoration always follows Reservation. It is quite untrue. If you take all the times and all the places in which the Sacrament has been reserved, I suppose that in the overwhelming majority of cases where it has been reserved there has been no corporate service of Adoration whatever. So much for changes in doctrine. It is not contended that the mere practice of reserving the sick raises any question of doctrine. Whatever is believed about the Sacrament in Church can equally be well believed if the Sacrament is carried to the sick.
  6.0 p.m.
  I pass to the question, Will it give more order to the Church? Will it give better peace to the Church? As to order, we have had these 2,000 clergy quoted to us. They made a declaration about doctrine. It would be a mistake to assume that that is a declaration of disobedience in point of action. Taking it rightly or wrongly—that is not my business to consider—they think, of course, that these doctrines having been challenged it is their duty to re-affirm their assent to them. But it would be quite a mistake, a profound mistake, to suppose that every one of those clergy would refuse obedience. As things now are, there are said to be about 700 Churches in which the Sacrament is reserved and, I believe, about 100 in which there are any of these practices to which exception is naturally taken in this House. In point of fact, the actual cases of corporate Services of Adoration, though they bulk very large in controversy here, bulk very small in the life of the Church. Inquiry has been made in the diocese of Leicester and it has been ascertained that in all the hundreds of benefices there, there were only four or five at most where they would make any objection about obedience to the Book. When I say that obedience will be given to the Book. I do not mean that there will be a campaign of prosecution. I agree with what the Home Secretary said on that point. You cannot, as he pointed out, really deprive a clergyman of his benefice without an infinitely cumbersome process. You cannot deprive a clergy-

  1237
  man without exciting a great deal of sympathy. The House will remember an unfortunate case which happened the other day in regard to a slight moral offence, and how much sympathy was at once excited for the affected incumbent. If it had been a question about some clergyman who performed some Service which was disapproved by a numerous body in his congregation, which might be a large body, but approved enthusiastically and warmly by another large body, you would have had the whole country in a storm of agitation. It is not by coercive discipline, but it is by the pressure of opinion—the pressure of opinion expressed by the Bishop, expressed by his fellow clergy and expressed in the last resort by some form of censure by the synod of the diocese, that you will obtain obedience.
  Under that kind of pressure, those who know the Church of England are confident that, except in a few instances, order would be restored. Then, as time goes on, we could build up within the Church a tradition of obedience instead of the present tradition of disobedience. That is Where the new Prayer Book Measure will make a great difference as compared with the present position, where everyone is obliged to disobey the law, as it is impossible to do otherwise. You may say that you approve of this or disapprove of that. Take the position of an incumbent who thinks that certain things are very valuable. Someone says: "You should not say the Athanasian Creed," or someone says, "So and so should not have the previously prescribed Marriage Service read from the Book," and so on. You cannot expect him to agree that he should be held to be a law breaker, if he does things which he believes are of profound religious significance and most valuable to the spiritual welfare of his flock. Naturally, he says, "If you are going to enforce the law, you must enforce it all round." That is not possible now; you cannot do that now.
  Suppose you have a law which all reasonable and practicable people, including all the most learned and most distinguished and most powerfully-minded among the Anglo-Catholics themselves can keep, then you can say to those who do not obey: "Is it reasonable for you to stand out I All these other people obey what is certainly the judgment of the
  1238
  Church. Why should you be the only disobedient person?" This pressure of professional opinion would, I believe, have the desired effect, because people do not lice, especially those who believe in emphasising their Catholic position, to be isolated, and they would be gradually brought round to conform to what is a reasonable and proper standard of law. Suppose one of my hon. Friends were appointed Governor of one of the Dependencies of the Empire and found there a g teat religious dispute, and that there was a great deal of disorder arising, that some would not obey the religious orders of the High Priest of the district, and that that caused great confusion. Suppose someone came forward with a plan and said: "Ninety-five per cent, will obey if this plan is adopted. If you will be pleased to confirm it by the authority of the State, 95 per cent. will be satisfied, and the other 5 per cent. will gradually come in in process of time." In those circumstances, would not any Member of this HOUSE adopt just the same policy that the Bishops have adopted? The best possible policy is to appease the well-instructed and learned men and then trust to the more extreme and unlearned brethren coming in, under pressure. Eventually, that will mean peace in the Church.
  With regard to peace in the Church, there seems to be apprehension. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne, addressed himself to that subject. No one wishes to trouble the peace of the Evangelicals in the Church of England. It is admitted that in the new Book the clergy are made absolutely safe. A congregation may want to adopt anything that is in the Deposited Book and the Bishop may want to do so, but the clergyman is absolute master in regard to adhering to the old Book, if he desires so to do. No clergyman of the Church of England can be obliged to depart from the old Book. It is said that a clergyman may impose on his congregation, with the consent of the Bishop, something vexatious within the new Book. I think we may rest assured that the provision with regard to appeal to the Bishop is really a valuable safeguard. At the present time, before the passage of the new Book, there is no safeguard at all. If a clergyman desires to disregard the

  1239
  wishes of his congregation, he can do so, and some do so, not only Anglo-Catholics but others. It is not merely an Anglo-Catholic characteristic to tread on the corns of your congregation. It is a characteristic common to certain human nature. There are people who always wish to have their own way, whether other people like it or not.
  I have talked to a great many churchmen about this point, and I know how deeply this question is felt not only in this House but outside it, but I have never found even the most extreme leaders, even the most extreme Anglo-Catholics, who did not say, "We fully agree with you that it is wrong to force these things on a reluctant congregation." If you can appeal to public opinion, including an appeal to the advanced Anglo-Catholic opinion, you may have them on your side. The appeal to the Bishop does make the thing public property, and you have the public opinion of the whole Church, including indirectly the opinion of the whole bench of Bishops, and all moderate, temperate opinion brought to bear upon the dispute. Can hon. Members suggest any better method of giving the laity a remedy in respect of any grievance which they may have? There is no process such as that at the present time. The hon. Member for Hereford (Sir S. Roberts) who moved the rejection of the Measure said that if you could have today a Choral Celebration with vestments and lights, that that is as alien to and as offensive to Evangelical feelings as anything that is described in the new Book. Under the existing law you can, if you wish, give a great deal of pain to your congregation. Will hon. Members observe that in the new Deposited Book not only in respect of what is fresh in that Book, but in respect of what there is in the old Book, there is given the right of appeal to the Bishop in order that the matter may be brought to his notice. That is a general right given to the laity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford spoke about this being a movement towards priestcraft. Surely, he is mistaken? This is not a movement towards priestcraft, because, although the AngloCatholics may have made progress, there has been no gain in priestcraft. On the
  1240
  contrary, the laity stand in a far stronger position than they did 70 years ago. They are called into the councils of the Church. They have a House of Laity; they have Chambers of Laity in every diocesan conference, and they have, parochial church councils. That is something that could not possibly have happened in the Church of Rome. That is absolutely alien to the Church of Rome. That is a movement which to the ultramontane mind is far more intolerable than any sacramental question. In reality, therefore, whatever may have been the case in the 16th century, the real difference between the Church of Rome and the Church of England is that one is a Church of authority or, as we should say, of despotism, and the other is a Church of liberty, or, as they sometimes say, of anarchy. We stand for liberty, and this Bill but regulates and organises that liberty and makes it, hope, consistent with the reverent worship of God and the saving of the souls of those committed to the Church.
  We were told by the hon. Member who has just spoken that we must not depart from the Reformation. We are not dreaming of anything of the kind. We could not possibly do it if we wished to do so. The first Reformed Book, the Book of Cranmer contained everything of principle that is suggested in this new Book. Let me draw attention to a passage from the historian Froude that is worthy of attention. I do not entirely like the method of its expression. When he wrote he was in a state of theological Liberalism, detached from the Church of England, and had contempt for some aspects of it. This is what he said of the use of the Prayer Book of 1559:
  "The object had been so to frame the constitution of the Church of England that disloyalty alone should exclude a single English subject from its communion Who in any true sense could be called a Christian; so to frame its formulas that they might be patient of a Catholic or Protestant interpretation, according to the views of this or that sect of the people, that the Church should profess and teach a uniform doctrine in essentials—as the word was understood by the latitudinarians of the age; while in non-essentials it should contain ambiguous phrases resembling the many watchwords which divided the world; and thus enable Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist and Zwinglian to insist each that the Church of England was theirs."
  That was rather cynically written. But it is true that it was an essential feature of

  1241
  the English Reformation that, while there was to be unity about essentials, there was to be diversity about non-essentials. That is the characteristic feature of the English Reformation and, surely, it is wise. We cannot all think alike. Christianity in the Gospels contemplates various methods by which Christ is approached. On essentials we must be united—on Christianity, on the main purpose of our religion; on essentials within the Eucharist we must be united; on the main process of access to Christ and the personal union with Him. You read in the Gospels of two miracles of our Lord. One, where the centurion would not even trouble Him to go down to his house, but was satisfied with the spoken word which would heal the servant who was ill. The other miracle was that of the poor woman who felt, in her simple mind, that if she could touch the hem of His garment she would be healed. The hard rationalist would say: "How could the hem of the garment do any good? How could the Divine healing power pass through the hem of the garment?" The faith of both was blessed. The word was spoken to each:
  "Thy faith hath made thee whole."
  Cannot we imitate the lesson that is taught by these very moving stories 4 If you approach Christ in faith, you may believe this or that, your opinion about the mode of His manifestation in the Eucharist may be this or that, but, if in sincere truth you are approaching Him, you will receive the gift that He has ordained. And so I say that, in that essential truth, we are not divided, but utterly one. Whoever it be—the whole body of the clergy of this country, from the extreme Anglo-Catholic who likes to talk about the Mass and Eucharistic devotions to the old-fashioned Evangelical who preaches to his flock from the Gospels, and teaches them that they must be healed by the precious Blood of Christ, all are united in that great essential of faith and devotion in the: Master. Divided in non-essentials, in that essential they are utterly one.
  Captain CROOKSHANK: The only thing which reconciles me to the difficult task of following the Noble Lord in a Debate such as this is the fact that it is seldom given to any hon. Member of this House to oppose the arguments of his own
  1242
  representative, and I hope I shall be able to traverse many of the statements which the Noble Lord has made in his very moving speech. I speak with considerable diffidence in a matter of this kind, as indeed every hon. Member must. Like many of my colleagues I was moved by the very stirring concluding paragraphs of the letter which the Archbishop of Canterbury published only a few days ago. He spoke of an old man dreaming dreams. I speak to-day because I feel that sometimes young men see visions, and the vision I see, if this Measure is passed, is one of a terrible political calamity, terrible distress within and without the Church. Some hon. Members who spoke yesterday said that those who were opposing the Measure did so out of a sense of fear. I trust that is not the case, and that every hon. Member will give his decision according to his own judgment. But if there is any question of fear it has been brought to us by those organisations supported by the promoters of this Measure who took their lead from the statement made by the Bishop of Durham after the last rejection of the Measure, and are trying to raise the bogy of disestablishment from within the Church.
  In the pamphlet of the League of Loyalty and Order, which has been referred to, it is stated in so many words that if we refuse to pass this Measure disestablishment must be raised as a cry. Hon. Members who think that should reflect on the words which have just fallen from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne). There is no case in the history of any country in which the Church has asked for divorce from the State. In my reading of history I find that it has been the State which has cut off the Church, a very different matter indeed from the point raised by the Bishop of Durham and those who feel with him. If the Church feels that she has a vocation to fulfil in the life of the nation, are we to believe that the Church will come voluntarily and ask for a judicial separation? It is not in that way that this problem works out.
  It is claimed by the supporters of this Measure that its passage will restore peace to the Church. It is because I am so certain that it will not restore peace that I feel so strongly about it. The

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  Noble Lord spoke about doctrine. It is most difficult to discuss such matters, and I will say nothing about Consecration Prayers, concerning which he gave us his own version, except to ask hon. Members to bear in mind the words of the Bishop of Exeter, with whose views the Noble Lord must have at least a fraternal knowledge, to the effect that—
  "The new form of Consecration Prayer brings us no nearer to our Catholic brethren whilst it deepens the gulf which separates us from the Protestant Church."
  That is what the Noble Lord's brother has said, and that is the position which many of us feel to be the right one on so difficult an issue. But it is not only in the Consecration Prayer in the service of Holy Communion that difficulty arises. There are other points which have been left on one side so far, but they are still there. I turn to the Ecclesiastical Committee's Report on this Measure last year, and I find that protests were made against other things which are introduced into this Book. Mass Vestments, the word "Altar," the mixed Chalice, the Wafer, the Invocation, Prayer for the dead, and the Reservation of the Consecrated Elements; they were all before the Ecclesiastical Committee, and they are all points on which the new Book has gone back to the old Prayer Book of 1549. I want to deal with the argument that the reason for the introduction of the new Book is in order to meet the needs of the modern age. It has been repeated again and again; yet in these most essential points you have gone back to the year 1549, more than 100 years further back than the existing Prayer Book in order to meet the needs of the modern age!
  To my mind to refer to the needs of the modern age is a most fallacious argument. Revealed religion, based on the faith of those who belong to it, is not an empirical thing, it is not to be measured in the terms of medical science. You cannot analyse its result and say that in a modern age we must change our formulae. It is not in that way that the religion of the ordinary people of this country works. The Noble Lord has talked learnedly, as befits the representative of a distinguished university, of the intellectual appeal there is behind these changes in the new Book, but the
  1244
  ordinary common or garden man in this country, the ordinary people, have a perfect right to their own views in these matters! That is one of the essential foundations of the reformed religion, the right of private judgment, and it is no good coming to this House as the Noble Lord should have learned long ago and making an appeal to the intellectual section of the community only.
  We claim to speak the opinions of the general public, and I will give some indication why we do so. I speak here on behalf of my own constituents. Before the rejection of the Measure last year, out of 78 ecclesiastical parishes into which my constituency is divided, I only had resolutions from 15, less than 20 per cent., expressing views one way or the other. After the Measure was rejected I gave my reasons in the local Press, having been unable to speak on that occasion. Since the present Measure has been under consideration, efforts have been made to get resolutions sent to me in favour of the new Book. I have seen letters which have been addressed to every incumbent and every rural dean, and at the end I have had resolutions from six church councils in favour of the Book, and two from ruri-deaconal conferences; and nothing else. I claim, therefore, that I can say that there is no overwhelming desire at all in that part of the country for the proposed changes.
  The Noble Lord spoke about discipline and order. May I give a personal example. At this time when the whole question is sub judice and awaiting the decision of this House, one would have imagined that people in authority would have refrained from anticipating events. The Bishop of Oxford, who is almost as learned as the Noble Lord, perhaps a little more learned, I will not attempt to decide between them, said in his charge that in his opinion the nearest to doctrinal change was the permissive use of Prayers for the Departed, yet only three Sundays ago I found in my own Cathedral Church the Dean, who is the authority for carrying out the services, himself inviting the congregation to offer such prayers. That is why we find it so difficult to believe in the cry that order will be restored in the Church if the Measure is passed. The hon. and learned Member for Altrinoham (Mr. Atkinson) said that the opponents of the

  1245
  Book pick out a few cases of abuse, and said that they were going to be legalised by the Measure. That is not the root of the argument. Our own observation over a period of many years tells us that nothing is done to check these illegalities, and that is why we are so desperately afraid and so terribly suspicious for the future. We do not see how this Measure is going to help in the restoration of order.
  Let me put this point to the Noble Lord. You are still allowing the old Book, still allowing the incumbent to carry on the present services. It passes my comprehension how you can expect him to do both. There is a difference in words and there will be a difference in the form of the ceremonies. An incumbent on three or four Sundays in a month will be conducting the Service of Holy Communion in one way and on the other Sunday in another way. How can you expect an incumbent to switch himself from one to the other? If there is no essential difference, why have an alternative? If there was no alternative I could see some chance of a restoration of uniformity. In the preface to the Act of 1662, it is laid down that there shall be one service throughout the whole realm. That was a desideratum then. It is not a desideratum now. To-day you are going to have alternative services.
  That is where the stumbling block comes in. There is a safeguard:—One service in the month in certain circumstances will be from the Prayer Book of 1662, but there is a most extraordinary omission in the Measure, perhaps not intended; there is no provision that in the month in which Easter conies one of these services shall be on Easter day, and yet that day is one of the days when every confirmed member of the Church is enjoined by the Prayer Book to go to Celebration. On that day, under this Measure, he may be deprived of the service under the old Book. I do not think you are going to get discipline back on these lines. I am told by a constituent that the changes in the Deposited Book are not so much in the direction of Roman Catholicism as to ideas in vogue before the Eastern Church was separated from the Western Church. If Canterbury and York want to go back neither to Rome or to Tennessee, why should they want to go back to Antioch or Constantinople?
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  Hon. Members will remember the old quotation:
  "Play the man Master Ridley, we shall this day light such a candle in England as by God's grace shall not be put out."
  That candle, that light, still shines. It needs to be brighter, to be snuffed, 'but the Noble Lord instead wants to put around it, an opaque vellum shade to help us to re turn to the dim religious life of the pre-mediaeval ages. The changes incorporated in this Book will bring terrible sorrow to great masses of the common people of the country. That is why we oppose it.
  I want to go back now for one moment to the point of the alternative Service, because that is really the fundamental rock on which the whole of our opposition is based. Suppose that there is a church in which you have adopted the Reservation and in which you have an aumbry set up, and suppose that a few years later there is a change in that parish. Am I to understand that the aumbry will be taken away and another faculty and licence granted I am afraid as I read the situation that the aumbry will still remain and will be to the people a sorrow and a regret. That point has not been taken fully into consideration. In fact the more we consider the changes made during the last six months, though they were made admittedly to meet a great many criticisms in this House, the more we are inclined to say that more good would have been done had the changes been considered longer and had there been a period for the election of a national Church Assembly between the previous rejection of the Measure and the present time. There has been no political election since last year; hon. Members are here to-day as they were last December. And members of the Church Assembly who sent up the Book to this House before are the same people to send it up now.
  I have suggested what should have been done. But it is too late now. We have to decide as best we may on the facts before us. As I think this matter over and consider the responsibility that rests upon us, I an impelled to ask every hon. Member to exercise his own judgment. The learned Attorney-General is not the only distinguished representative of the City of Bristol sent to this House. Years and years ago his predecessor laid down

  1247
  definitely and in terms that "every Member of Parliament owed it to his constituency to give his unbiased judgment and opinion and that no one should take away from him." I ask every hon. Member to exercise that unbiased judgment to-day. The world will not come to an end, nor will the Church come to an end, if this Measure is not passed. You drive out into a foggy night and run your car against a blank wall. What do you then do? You reverse, and by very slow stages gradually get back to the main road. You do not sit down by the side of the car and say, "It is broken up; the machinery is smashed and will never function again." You try to get back to the road which the fog has forced you to leave. That is what will happen to the Church. She is far too great to worry over what are after all comparatively small matters.
  There is one standard in which we have been taught to believe, and that is the unerring standard of truth and justice. What is truth? That question was asked twenty centuries ago and remains unanswered. But, for all that, truth is great and will prevail. The unerring standard of truth and justice demands justice for all—not for only one section even of the Church of England, but justice for every part of the Church of England, and in addition, the Church being established, justice for every individual in our national life. They all demand the same form of justice that this Measure, in its smaller way, tries to give to just those few intellectual notabilities to whom the Noble Lord referred. There is nothing that would please us more than to be able to conform with the wishes of the great bulk of the Episcopate, but we feel that on the balance of evidence our judgment drives us the other way. Reluctantly I ask the House to be of the same opinion as it was last December, and to join us in the "No" Lobby. We pray every day for the High Court of Parliament, that its consultations may be directed to the good of our Church. We are dealing to-day with things immortal, big things. Who are we puny people to say that, in the mysterious ways in which it pleases Him to perform, God is not leading us here and now to do better and be wiser than we can ourselves appreciate? It is in that hope and in that fervent belief that
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  I, though wishing for rejection of the Measure, leave it to the unbiased and unfettered judgment of Members of this honourable House.
  Mr. PONSONBY: It is with the greatest possible diffidence that I rise to take part in this important Debate, because I do not regard myself as an authority on ecclesiastical controversy in any way. Moreover I stand in a position outside the Church of England and outside any section of institutional religion. But I have a duty as a Member of Parliament to vote, and if need be to speak on this occasion, with as much right as any other Member. I can assure the House that respect for the opinions of others is the ground on which I take my stand, and I hope that I shall show no failure in fully appreciating the reverence which others conceive for doctrines which may not appeal to me. The chief objection made to this Measure and an objection which has run through all speeches against the Measure, is that the Church Assembly does not represent the Church. They have acted absolutely constitutionally. The body that we have charged with these matters has gone through all the necessary formalities, and by a considerable majority the Book has been passed. I cannot see in what other way they could have consulted the Church, This was the only way available to them. Moreover the Bishops in the Church Assembly, unlike a Government in this House, do not put on any Whips, and therefore the members of the Assembly have an absolutely free vote and the Bishops are not imposing their wishes on the clergy.
  Then it has been said that the doctrines in the Book are not in conformity with the Protestant religion. We are assured to the contrary by the Archbishop of Canterbury and by the majority of the Bishops. Yet we are told that we must arrogate to ourselves the right to judge these matters, that we must assume an infallibility in this House in doctrinal and liturgical matters. We are told that we alone can define the Protestant religion, and that we can do it better than the Church Assembly. We enter, in this discussion, the mysteries of religion and all the inner metaphysical interpretations of super-

  1249
  natural belief. I do not know anything about heresy and error. My list of errors would be too long for anyone to agree to. My ignorance is shared by a very great number of Members in this House. I look for guidance. I do not think I should be blamed if I seek guidance in the Church Assembly rather than in the Home Secretary or my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. B. Mitchell). I think we are wrongly discharging our duty by entering into a discussion of these very sacred mysteries. In art and music we have institutions which come under our control because they get money from public funds. We might spend our -time in discussing whether the modern school of music was preferable to the classical school, or in discussing whether postimpressionist artists 'were better than the artists of the Renaissance. We might do that before we gave money to the Royal College or the Royal Academy of Music, the Royal College of Arts or the National Gallery, but if we did we should make ourselves supremely ridiculous, not because there are not hon. Members who are fully competent to speak on those matters, but because as a Legislative Assembly we should be taking upon ourselves functions which we are in no way qualified to discharge. Far more are we overstepping the limits of our province when we engage our time here in judging profound and intricate questions of liturgy and ritual, and in arrogating to ourselves a superiority over the ecclesiastical authorities in laying down the law in these matters.
  We are told that the new Prayer Book has a Romeward tendency, that the Protestant religion is betrayed, and the cry "No Popery!" goes up. Incidentally I may express my opinion that this country is just as likely to become a Raman Catholic country as to become a Mohammedan country. We hear a great deal of condemnation of superstition, and we have heard superstitious practices described in the greatest detail. Do we hate superstition? Does the Home Secretary hate superstition? Does my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley hate superstition? No, Sir. Let us be honest. We none of us hate superstition. We hate other people's superstitions, forgetting that we ourselves, whatever be our
  1250
  creed or lack of creed, have pet superstitions of our own. This loud condemnation of superstition is the basis of intolerance, and in history intolerance has been the cause of more conflict and more craelty and more misery than any other human failing. It was because I detected in December last an echo of mediaeval intolerance that I made up my mind that, if opportunity offered, I would say a few words to this House today. When the Church of England is showing a disposition to be tolerant, to broaden its outlook and to open its doors, are we to set our faces against it and reject this Measure? I say that it will reflect no credit on this House and on the history of these times if we do so.
  I do not hold a brief for the Church of England. If I may respectfully say so, I think it has conspicuously failed to preach and enforce the fundamental precepts of Christianity. But I want to be scrupulously fair. I think its attention has been distracted by these superficial controversies over liturgy and ceremonial. I think tie Church is aware of the loss of its spiritual influence. I went into a church the other day—a very large church in a rather small village or town—and the sexton, who was very fond of the edifice, showed me round it. He took me to the chancel steps and as I looked down the magnificent nave of the church I said to him, "What a very large church for so small a place?" He said, "I have seen this church packed in days gone by." "But not now?" said I. "No," said he, "the War killed religion." Although that remark opens up a field in which I might feel tempted to walk, I will only say that I think there is a great element of truth in what he said. I do not pretend that the passage of this Prayer Book is going to fill that church, but I do believe that the passage of this Prayer Book is going to make this controversy subside and is going to allow the Church to turn its attention to things that really signify, whereas, the rejection of this Prayer Book is going to bring up this Measure again next year and again the year after. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] We here are the storm centre of the controversy. It is we professional controversialist s in the House of Commons who make all the pother. It is we who kick up the dust and it is we who will continue to make this not only a vital question but a political question. It will

  1251
  be dragged by us, in rejecting this Book, into the arena of politics at the next General Election, distracting people's attention from the vital political issues, to which it is our business to draw their attention.
  I feel very strongly that in these matters of religion there can be no finality. There will always be an ebb and flow in the attraction of the supernatural. The beliefs of one generation become the superstitions of the next. Anything which tends to stereotype, to confine, to prevent freedom in religious matters is fatal to religion. Although I myself found religion when I left off going to church I have myself the most profound faith in the spiritual nature of man, and I believe there is no people in the world who will respond more readily to a moral appeal than the British people. I think they are waiting for that appeal, and I think that those interested in religious matters are distracted by these unnecessary superficial controversies. I make this appeal to the House as a Member of Parliament and not as a Churchman, as an Englishman and not as a sectarian, as one who values tolerance and detests persecution in the realm of conscience. Whatever be our beliefs, and I believe that in shades they are as many as there are Members of this House, can we not unite in exercising the virtue of Christian charity? Can we not unite and give not only our approval to those who have been entrusted by the State with the responsible duty of moral teaching but give them every helpful encouragement in 'their endeavours to make for themselves;1, more efficient instrument to serve one of the vital needs of a great people.
  Sir ROBERT HORNE: It is with some diffidence that I take part in this momentous controversy. I am an outsider to this dispute, and, therefore, I am not acquainted with its impacts as is, for example, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Sometimes the outsider is in a position of advantage, however, and I venture to put before the House some of the views which occur to me after listening to the present Debate and re-reading most of that which took place in December last. The House will forgive me if, in the first place, I tell my fellow Members the point of view from
  1252
  which I approach this problem. I am myself a member of the Church of Scotland, whose government is that of Presbytery and whose doctrines are rigidly Protestant. We have no set forms of service or words of prayer. In most of its churches the invocations that are made to the Almighty are as simple and as informal as are the aspirations of the human heart. There are, no doubt, members of other communions who would find in such simplicity a lack of fastidiousness. For my part, all the most sacred memories of my life are associated with a parish church which was entirely devoid of architectural beauty or ornament and the services in which boasted no ceremony and no display. It will, therefore, not 'be supposed that in anything I say I am prejudiced by any desire for ornamental vestments or elaborate observances. My own profound conviction is that the efficacy of worship is in a reverent spirit rather than in ritual or parade.
  What, to a person from the outside, like myself, is the problem which is presented by this Debate'? The origin of this Prayer Book is obvious. You have in the Church of England a Prayer Book which is 262 years old, and, although the great essential truths of life continue throughout the ages, the forms in which they are expressed do not always suit the changing needs of the times. The thoughts of men widened with the process of the suns, and it became perfectly clear that so many things in the old Prayer Book had become impossible of acceptance, that you would cease to have any law and order in the Church, and everyone would be a law unto himself. Under the old Book many abuses crept in, and the Commission of 1904 was appointed to deal with a matter which had become a cause of serious scandal in the Church. The Commission found that the Service was too narrow in its form for the present day, and the present revised Prayer Book is before the House as the result of an attempt to meet what the Commission decided to be the necessities of the situation. It is said that the Revised Book which is being debated to-night, is the same Prayer Book as that which was rejected in December. Again, looking at the matter from the point of view of an outside observer, it seems to me to be

  1253
  idle to make the lawyer's point, that some of the Archbishops and Bishops have said that it is the same Book. It is easily understood that in its essentials, as far as they are concerned, it is the same thing, but that the present version makes explicit that which they thought was implicit in the previous form.
  What impresses me much more than that kind of argument is the fact that a considerable body of Anglo-Catholics who favoured the first Book have refused to give their allegiance to the one which we are now considering. That satisfies me that we are not now dealing with something upon which the House of Commons has already expressed its opinion.
  The question remains, however, whether the Prayer Book which is now offered to us is one which we can accept. The accusation made against it is that it shows a Romanising tendency in a Protestant Church, and that that tendency is particularly displayed in connection with vestments and with the celebration of the Holy Communion. I do not propose to say a word about the question of vestments. It has not been largely relied upon in the Debate, and I do not think it is moving the public conscience in the slightest degree, but I should like to say something on the question of the forms provided for the celebration of Holy Communion. I am not going to discuss the matter in detail, because these mysteries are too profound to be made the shuttlecocks of argument across the Floor of the House of Commons. Indeed, they are so profound and so elusive, so subtle, and so metaphysical, that it is almost impossible to find language to which some exception could not be taken by anyone who wanted to be suspicious as to the motives of those who were making a change. But this very circumstance gives rise to a curious result.
  It is a strange fact that in all religious controversies people become much more one-sided and much more partisan and take up, to a much greater extent, the attitude of zealots, than they do with regard to disputes concerning the ordinary mundane affairs of life. Again, looking at it as an observer I find a tendency of that kind in the present Debate. For example, there is no fairer controversialist than my right hon. Friend
  1254
  the Home Secretary, but even he has succumbed to the tendency to adopt, in this matter, a partisan rather than an impartit.1 attitude and very often to discover bogies where I think there are none at all. Let me take an example. He was good enough to send me his book, a very illuminating book, about this controversy, and I happened to open it at a page where he was discussing the paucity of people desiring to become clergymen of the Church of England. He ascribed this deficiency to the activities of the Anglo-Catholic party. As it happens, in my own country of Scotland all the Churches—the national Church and the Free Churches as well—are lamenting the same paucity in their ranks, which is due to social and economic causes which are common to both countries. This made me wary of the impartiality of the Home Secretary in advancing arguments in regard to other questions. I have found very many instances of similar lapses, but I shall content myself with referring to one matter which is at the core of the present controversy. One of the matters to which my right hon. Friend takes grave exception is the fact that the Consecration Prayer is, or may he, preceded by an anthem:
  "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."
  7.0 p.m.
  Looking at it from the point of view of a person not particularly versed in these prayers, but as an intelligent Member of the House of Comomns who is not entirely ignorant of ecclesiastical affairs, it seemed to me fantastic that the mere putting of this anthem in front of the Consecration Prayer was going to do what the Home Secretary claimed, suggest the working of Transubstantiation. I was so astonished by this that I took occasion to look up a book of forms of service, which has been published by the Church of Scotland. We have, as I have said, no set forms of service, but in 1922 the General Assembly approved a set of forms for anybody who cared to use them. I turned up the Communion Service in that book, and found that the Consecration Prayer is preceded by the very thing which the Home Secretary says is an indication of a Roman Catholic point of view, and it is not printed in small print, but in larger print than the ordinary. Are we to be told that the Church

  1255
  of Scotland is heading for Rome? I have found many other things of a similar character in the Home Secretary's volume. If the Home Secretary were to exercise the same detective skill upon the Scottish Prayer Book, he would find just as many things to question from the point of view he has adopted as in the English Prayer Book.
  I turn my attention for a moment to the Consecration Prayer about which so much controversy is raised. It is said that the new form is more Romanistic than the old. I have read that prayer with the greatest possible care. The two forms of invocation are these. In the new form it is suggested that the prayer should be:
  "Sanctify both us and these Thy Gifts of Bread and Wine, that they may be unto us the Body and Blood of Thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ."
  The old form says:
  "Grant that we … may be made partakers of His Most Blessed Body and Blood."
  I used to be a psychologist when I was young, and I venture to say that anyone, who is accustomed to dealing in ideas and precise words, on reading these two forms of prayer, will come to the conclusion that the new form which is suggested is one that puts forward the idea of a spiritual experience, while, if there is any objection to be taken to materialistic forms, it is to be found rather in the old prayer which asks to be made partakers of the Body and Blood of Christ. I do not take exception to either of them, but any impartial person, coming to the judgment of that form of prayer, will surely reach the conclusion that the new form is certainly riot objectionable if the old form is not.
  There remains the question of the Reservation of the Elements. For myself, I have no particular point of view about this matter, but I do recognise that one of the matters which brings comfort to people in the Communion service is the idea that they are joining with others in the celebration of the Sacrament. Who am I that I should say to any such person, a sick person in a hospital or in his own bed at home, that he should be denied that comfort? Accordingly, I begin to feel that there is an atmosphere of undue suspicion being
  1256
  attached to all these changes. They are not being examined fairly. I am afraid there is a tendency to come to their consideration with the view that, since they are new, they must be proposed by a party which is not very much liked by those who are criticising them, and therefore something sinister must. be found in them. Again, I hate the idea of the Adoration of these Elements just as much as the Home Secretary. I am as rabid a Protestant as he is. But, if there is to be some Reservation—and I think there ought to be—then should not the means the Bishops propose be adopted to see that Reservation is not to be converted into Adoration as well?
  I am told the Bishops will riot take the trouble to see that the law is enforced. I understand and appreciate that point of view. I speak in all reverence and respect, but I think, to some extent, the Bishops have brought this trouble upon their own heads. The reason I say that is this. There were some very definite offences which the Royal Commission pointed out and to which they suggested that the Church should immediately give attention. Nothing has ever been done about them. I know the explanation is that so much is clone that is illegal that it is impossible to prosecute all. We are all well aware that no prosecution takes place with regard to things which have fallen into desuetude. Things that are vital, however, may form the subject of such prosecutions and might be applied here. I do not know enough of the difficulties of the Bishops to pronounce any judgment. But, at the stage we have reached now, the old Book will no longer be possible as the basis for prosecutions. How can you go forward with a prosecution based on a Book, which the House of Lords by a large majority has said ought to be changed, and the House of Commons by a large minority has said ought to be changed? There is no longer any authority on which the Bishops can proceed. One of the dilemmas with which those who oppose the Book are faced is that, while they lament and deplore the abuses going on in the Church to-day, they are certainly not going to do anything to check them. Unless this Book, or something in this form, be granted, there will be no check at all. All the clergy to whom the Home

  1257
  Secretary referred to-day, the 2,000 Anglo-Catholics, will be left to the freedom of their own will to do what they like in their churches. What is he going to do about these 2,000? If I were a member of the Church of England, I confess that, upon the argument as presented, I would have to consider that there was no apprehension necessarily arising out of the proposals which have been made. That view is upheld by a large number of distinguished men in other churches whose opinions are not generally in conformity with those of the authorities of the Church of England.
  I come to another point. I have mentioned the fact that I am a member of the Church of Scotland. That Church came to Parliament in the year 1921, not to ask that Parliament should approve of any form of service which they proposed to adopt, but to ask Parliament to give them absolute freedom to use any form of service they liked. Parliament, recognising that we are living now in a different age from the old times, recognising the propriety of the demand of religious bodies for absolute freedom to control their own doctrines, granted that power to the Church of Scotland, and now they are in a position of absolute freedom to pray, preach and teach as they choose. If the Church of England was in the same position as the Church of Scotland is to-day, there would be nobody for the Home Secretary to run to in order to ask for help on the question of the Prayer Book. He would himself have to convince his own brethren in his own communion of its impropriety. If the Church of England were disestablished the Home Secretary could no longer invoke the aid of myself and other people who are outside his Communion to vote down the majority of members of his own Church who approve of the Book which has been presented. If my right hon. Friend belonged to a Nonconformist body, then he would have to thrash out the matter to the best of his ability, and have it settled within the body itself. Is the Church of England, by the acknowledgment of the Home Secretary, to be regarded as the only Church in the world which is unfit for freedom and incapable of looking after its own doctrines and its own services?
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  If I were a member of the Church of England, I should have been in the House of Commons saying to Parliament that, while I recognise the absolute right of Parliament under the present constitution to control this matter, in view of the action which Parliament itself had taken in regard to these matters in the case of the Church of Scotland, obviously the opinion of the Church itself forms so great a factor in the situation that nothing but the most overmastering views could by any chance justify the House of Commons in upsetting what the Church had done. In spite of that, I find the Home Secretary making an appeal to all men in this House, putting himself in the position of having his faith dictated by a political body composed of men of 50 different creeds and some of them of no creed at all. For myself, I think that position to he one which is most degrading to the Church of England and, for my part, I decline to be asked, in company with those of many varieties of communions, to say to the Church of England what is the form of worship that they must use when they go on their knees before their Maker.
  We are told that the Bishops make all the difficulty. I have heard more arguments during this Debate than I have ever conceived it possible to adduce in favour of the Presbyterian form of government. My right hon. Friend complains that there are abuses, but, as they cannot be dealt with, as he seems to say, then he must change the form of his Church government. He has got no right to go on complaining of his Church's Bishops so long as he does nothing to remedy the situation. He has chosen the form of government for the Church to which he adheres, and he must accept that with all its limitations. If he will use his great influence to see that the proper appointments of Bishops are made, I have not the slightest doubt that there might be a very salutary change in what he regards as the recalcitrant habits of many of the people to whom he objects to-day.
  He tells us also that the Protestant faith of this Church is in danger. I do not believe a single word of it. Those are faint of heart who are always detecting disintegration in the Protestant character of our country. We have in this country a citizenship more in love with

  1259
  freedom than in any other part of the world. The flame which burned the martyrs has never quite died down in the horrified eyes of the British people.
  It is impossible to believe that, as long as the members of the Church of England do their duty, there is any chance or danger of upsetting the Protestant faith of this country. I would have it believed that the Church of England, while maintaining its essential Protestant faith, should at the same time show not too great exclusiveness with regard to the devout people whom it welcomes within its tabernacles. The Church of England is a great national Church. As the passage quoted by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) from Froude shows, through all her history, she has been able to absorb and transmute many varieties and shades of faith, and to keep herself unblemished, the pure fountain of Protestant faith. She has been the greatest example to the nation; she is part of the national life; she is rooted in the soil, and she is a sacred and indestructible factor in the existence of the Nation. Moreover, she deserves well of her sons, and in particular at the present time she deserves that they should make a great attempt for harmony and peace, and for a renewal of that unity which the Church once displayed. If unity is not bought at too great a price, if the fundamental basis of religious truth is preserved, as well as the essential factors in our Protestant life, the charity of the Church should be as wide as the nation itself and as deep as the love of God.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken is, I understand, not going to vote. He has made his speech, and he has made the attack which he wished to make, and with gusto, upon the Home Secretary, his late rival, and he is not going to vote. I am not surprised. The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Shepherd), not feeling keenly interested in this question, went down to his constituency last night, not to address his constiuents, but to hear their views. He found that the largest hall in Darlington was filled to overflowing. He said nothing. Ministers of all denominations made speeches of 10 minutes, and then the meeting voted. They cast the same vote that would be
  1260
  given in Hillhead—three to one against the Book. I do not wonder that the right hon. Gentleman is not going to vote.
  Sir R. HORNE: Surely it is a most unworthy suggestion that my view is influenced by the number of votes which I may get in my constituency. In fact, I do not suppose that I have had more than 20 communications from my constituency since this controversy started.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I said that I was not surprised that he thought it wise not to vote, in view of the feeling of the laity in this country. I am in a stronger position than even the hon. Member for Darlington, for among the hundreds of letters I have had from my constituency, I have not had from the laity one single request to vote in favour of the Measure. I have spoken to people, and, after all this controversy, there is unanimity; yet if my constituency had been unanimously in favour of this Measure, I would have voted against it. I do not know how it is that one feels so deeply on a question of this sort. It may be said that I am intolerant; but we are all intolerant of some things. Some are intolerant of Fascism, or cruelty, or of falsehood. After all, tolerance and indifference too often go hand in hand. Here is a subject on which one cannot be indifferent. This seems to me to be part of the eternal struggle between liberty and authority, between self-reliance and dependence on the will of others, which has been going on through the ages. The religious phase of this struggle has been the constant, gradual emancipation of the soul of man from superstitious fears, the breaking away from dependence on priestly guidance, the gradual movement towards self-reliance and private judgment. The laity of this country have moved along that path continuously. They have moved forward and not backward since 1662, and to-day the laity, with the Bible as their foundation, and their conscience as guide, need less and less some interpreter between themselves and the Deity.
  Although I have had no request from laity to vote for this Book, I have had requests from the clergy of Newcastle to vote for it, and I ask the House to appreciate why it is that, although the views of the laity are so enormously on one side, the views of the clergy may very naturally be on the other side. The

  1261
  clergy are by a large majority in favour of this Measure, and it seems to me that, human nature being what it is, it is only natural that the clergy should be in favour of the Book. The whole tendency, not merely of this Book, but of the great change that has come over the Church of England in my lifetime, illustrated by the adoption of the name Catholic and the relegation to the underworld of the name Protestant—all that change has undoubtedly exalted the position of the priesthood. They have increased, and naturally seek further to increase, their status and their authority, and to expect the priesthood, under such circumstances, not to tend in that direction, is to underestimate the force of human nature in super-mundane things. It is this priestly caste which has made this revision of the British Prayer Book of 1662. It has been the main factor in the revision. Therefore, that revision has not been in the direction of modernism; there is here not more dependence on private judgment, but more dependence upon authority. In fact, the revision has been a revision backwards, and as the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) has shown, it may go as far backwards as the Nicene Creed in the fourth century. This is a natural result of having the revision carried out by those whose idea of progress is to intensify authority, direction and control, instead of by those often Laodicean laity, who know that the only profitable forward development of human society is a development, towards liberty of judgment, and the development of the education of the people so that they can be fit for that liberty of judgment.
  The clergy, in revising this new Book, have not stood alone. They have had support from Members of this House whom we all respect highly. They have had the support of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University. The Noble Lord has written a book on liberty and authority, which has been my guide through polities. But directly the Noble Lord touches religion, he becomes an authoritarian and forgets liberty. The hon. and gallant Member for North-East Leeds (Major Birchall), whose sincerity in his religion no man can doubt, made a speech yesterday which consisted of one long series of authorita-
  1262
  tive quotations from the Fathers and from the Bishops. Let us realise that this is the type of mind that must always be with authority, the type of mind that cannot understand that the alternative to direction is that people should think for themselves. I can quite understand the hon. and gallant Member, and the hon. and gallant Member for Rye (Sir G. Courthope), who are sincere members of the Church of England, backing up this change in the direction of authority.
  I wish the Prime Minister were not going to take the same line. He is not an authoritarian. He knows, as well as anybody in this House, that it is the determination of people to think for themselves that has made English character and English history. It is not submission to another's view, but determination to take risks of one's own, that has made England. Therefore, when he speaks to-night and winds up this Debate, he may use the arguments of others, but he will not use them with the same spirit. We know why he is winding up the Debate. He is as strongly with the laity as any other man in this House. He is winding up the Debate because he has that touching and wonderful loyalty to his subordinates. He made those Bishops, he has got to stand by them; but I would beg him to remember that there is a higher loyalty even than loyalty to subordinates, and that is loyalty to England. I remember his speech on the last occasion. If the division had been taken after his speech then we should have had the Book. To-night he is to wind up.
  His speech to-night will carry the fate of England. By that one speech he may swing over the Established Church of England to these new lines, so that the education of the children of the people will be directed by Anglo-Catholics, so that the churches where our ancestors were baptised and buried will go over to Catholicism; where in the future they will carry on services and use symbols which our predecessors would have abhorred. All this can be done out of a misplaced loyalty to subordinates. These symbols—the Reservation of the Sacrament, the chasubles and robes, prayers for the departed in purgatory—may all seem little things to us. They are symbols, mere symbols; but think

  1263
  what they meant to those people who went before. It was against those symbols that men fought in the field. It was for fear of those symbols that nations were driven across the sea. It was because of those symbols that men, women and even children were burnt at the stake. That is what those symbols used to mean. We may have got very far away from that. It was centuries back, and men's minds forget and change; but do let us remember that we here now are merely a passing phase, the trustees for the time being of old traditions.
  The tradition of liberty is surely greater than the tradition of the Church. That we should stand for liberty of judgment against the dogmatic dictation of the priest is one of the greatest duties cast on this Parliament to-day. We here are only passing on the torch in our time. I cannot forget that just three centuries ago the Member for my borough, Newcastle-under-Lyme, rose in his place. It was in the second Marian Parliament. All had kneeled down to receive the Pope's blessing, all except one man, the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, Sir Ralph Bagnall. He had been a linen-draper's son in the town. He had been a swashbuckler, he had been knighted at Musselburgh, and then he sat for his borough. It was a dangerous thing in those times not to kneel down. He walked out. Those are the traditions that I should like to maintain in this House, and I should like my party to maintain them, too. It is true that it is not given to us to light a candle in England which no one can put out, but we may see that the candle is not put out. Englishmen have not changed nor the light of liberty. The opportunities of self-sacrifice are perhaps less, but the spirit is still here, and I do ask this House, when they vote, like Master Ridley, to play the man.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I shall not attempt to follow the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) in the deeply-moving passages of which his speech consisted. If I venture to trespass on the attention of the House it is only very briefly to explain, in the first place, a personal point of view, and for a few moments to examine the subject which is under dis-
  1264
  cussion from a definitely more secular angle than that which has directed most of the speeches to which we have listened with so much interest this afternoon and yesterday. Personally, I do not like the new Prayer Book. It contains some things which I should feel bound to vote against if they were presented separately, and if I could do so without injury to larger issues. Moreover, on purely sentimental grounds, I regret the departures which it contains from the old-fashioned and archaic wording to which we have all been accustomed from our childhood, and especially in the Marriage Service. I do not like those departures from the old forms. On the other hand, I do not for a moment take the responsibility of rejecting the whole Measure on account of these dislikes and grievances, and therefore on the last occasion I abstained from voting. The development of the controversy seems now to have raised practical issues of a larger and graver character, outweighing my own personal feelings, and requiring a decision which I feel it would not be right for any one of us to shirk.
  Like most Members in this House, I think, I have no guidance from those I represent. The religious opinion in my constituency is divided, as it is, I suppose, in the constituencies of nearly everyone here. The subject was in no sense an issue at the last General Election. Men's minds were directed and their votes were cast upon topics which bore no relation to the problem which is now before us. Therefore, like a good many others I expect, who have been sitting through these Debates and the very remarkable one of last December, I have been forced to examine the matter in the light of a new and to some extent unforeseen situation, and also to examine it in the light of what one may, as far as one's judgment goes, imagine to be its potential consequences. I have listened to all these Debates, and the point of view which I venture to submit to the House—as I say, very briefly indeed, for I know there are others far more qualified than I am to take part in the discussion who are waiting to speak—has never been so well expressed by anyone who has spoken as it was in the very impressive speech of the hon. Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Mr. Ponsonby). I say, with him, that it is our duty to examine this

  1265
  matter, not as members of this or that Church or communion—I examine it not as a member of the Church of England, but as a Member of the House of Commons.
  We are compelled to take a decision about the affairs of a great religious community. This community ask, by the recognised means of corporate expression which is open to them, for a wider interpretation of their freedom in spiritual matters. If they were asking for penal powers against their members, or against members who did not agree with them, then, indeed, I could conceive that Parliament would assume its most vigilant air, and cast its most jealous eyes on anything in the nature of repressive or constrictive measures; but when they are asking only for a wider measure of freedom and for an optional alternative form of worship then, I say, undoubtedly the onus of proof rests upon those who invite us to refuse their demands. The primary presumption with which we approach this decision as Members of the House of Commons must obviously be against the denial of liberties which are lawfully demanded. To refuse to a religious community a wider latitude in spiritual matters is a very objectionable step for any modern Legislature to take. It appears to be contrary to the spirit of religious toleration which, I am quite sure, would rule the House of Commons in the case of any other faith or sect among the hundreds which exist side by side within the circuit of the British Empire. So far as I am aware, the large majority of the Church of England, utilising the only means of corporate expression open to them, and wishing to dwell together as a common Protestant body, ask for this widening of their spiritual liberties.
  Doubt is thrown upon the validity of this demand. [Interruption.] All human processes of expressing corporate opinion are vitiated by imperfections. There never has been any process by which opinion can he measured and expressed over wide areas or great numbers of persons which do not enable the minorities to impugn the character of the decision, or to say that the decision was not representative, or that motives were perverted, or that some incidental circumstance intervened to vitiate the character and validity of the decision. If you are going to take that line, then
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  I do not see how expression by an organisation on a large scale is possible. As a member of Parliament, owing my position in this House to these same expressions of corporate opinion which now are vitiated from many points of view by imperfections of which everyone is a judge, I feel bound to accept the corporate expression of the wish of the Church of England as representing the main opinion of that religious body, and especially of those who are responsible for carrying on its future life and work.
  Only overwhelming reasons—that is my submission, though I quite agree everyone has his opinion—could justify our frustrating their constitutionally expressed desire. And so I would ask, "Do these overwhelming reasons exist?" Here again everyone must judge for himself. Personally, I do not think they do. I can quite understand the attitude of those who hold the opposite opinion, but, personally, I cannot think that any of the objections, which would be overwhelming if well-founded, have been proved. I do not believe that we are in the presence of an impending reversion of the Church of England to Roman Catholicism or a break-up of the Reformation settlement. Although it is quite true that this new Book contains features which I, for one, regard as regrettable and undesirable, I cannot see that there is the slightest truth in that suggestion. I agree that no one can really trust more than his own opinion and express more than his own conviction on this subject. I was very much impressed with the account of the Lausanne Conference given by a Member on the Labour benches at the close of last night's Debate in which he quoted the judgment upon this particular Measure of all the Protestant sects and creeds of Europeans gathered together representing all the orthodox Free Churches, and he read out their view as follows:
  "The Ecclesiastical Committee, after careful consideration, reported that in their view the Measure of 1927 did not appear to affect the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects, and were of opinion that it should proceed."
  They go on to say that the Revised Measure which they have also considered in no way leads them to alter their opinion. This is not a matter of individual opinion; it is an opinion expressed by all the Protestant groups in Europe,

  1267
  and clearly they do not consider that anything in these proposals affects the foundation of the Reformation settlement, or constitutes anything in the nature of a reversion by the Church of England to Roman Catholicism. Therefore, the overwhelming reasons for rejecting this Measure are not present, and in their absence the case against the denial of wider spiritual freedom holds the field.
  These thoughts are reinforced by separate sets of considerations of an extremely practical character, and I will mention them very briefly to the House. What, in fact, are the powers of Parliament in these days over spiritual matters? Our legal constitutional rights are unchallenged, and about that there is no dispute. I confess that I am very sceptical of the powers of the House of Commons to enforce its will in spiritual matters upon anybody, and still more to pronounce a judgment upon such matters. But while I am sceptical of our competence to arrive at a final decision, no one can say that at the present time the attitude of the Church is aggressive; in fact, it seems to me to be a most submissive attitude in the face of the most unexpected rebuff which it received last winter, the result of which has been these amended proposals. They have pruned from their proposals certain unessential stumbling blocks which were commented on in the Debates of that time, and they have now come back to the House of Commons.
  The Church stands at the Bar of the House of Commons and waits. That, to me, is a most surprising spectacle. Here you have the greatest surviving Protestant institution in the world patiently listening to Debates on its spiritual doctrines by twentieth century democratically-elected politicians who, quite apart from their constitutional rights, have really no credentials except goodwill. It is a strange spectacle, and rather repellent. Under the surface, things are not quite the same. Thirty years ago, I used to think that people could be ordered about as if they were a troop of dragoons, but that is not possible to-day in religious matters. In these modern times no one can deny that the vote of any lay assembly like this, which includes a large number of persons belonging to separate rival
  1268
  communities, are unqualified—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—I am expressing my view, and I have every intention of expressing my view without modifying it in the slightest degree. I assert that in an assembly like this, a large majority are unqualified to deal with the theological issues which are involved. To suppose that such a body in the twentieth century is going to determine the spiritual observances of a religious community is a very difficult matter to accept, and it is repulsive to the modern mind. I am sure such a view would be instantly repudiated by any religious body which claims divine sanction for its work. Therefore, it seems to me that if the Church of England is refused the spiritual relief for which it asks, an undoubted severance will, in fact, take place from that very moment. I am not in the counsels of the Church, and I speak for no one but myself, but I apprehend that the Church would thenceforward declare its own policy, and it would be for Parliament, if the Church diverged too far, to take the initiative and take action against the Church in consequence of its diversion.
  There, in fact, lies the sole remedy of Parliament. In the present age the State cannot control the Church in spiritual matters; it can only divorce it. I have seen it suggested that the State could strip the Church of its material belongings, take away its cathedrals and confiscate its stipends. All our history shows that such action has no effect whatever in spiritual affairs, except to influence people in the contrary direction. The refusal of the wider freedom which is now contemplated means the moral separation of the Church and State of this Realm. As to when and how material separation would be effected, that all depends on circumstances and the time, although in such matters time is not necessarily a vital factor. The moral link would be broken by an adverse vote tonight, and I cannot feel that the regrettable features in the New Prayer Book are important enough to justify so precipitate and far-reaching a decision. Parliament should use its constitutional rights with tolerance and moderation, if only for the fact that a violent assertion of its rights may render them obsolete for ever.
  I have only one other observation to make, and it is, what will be the im-

  1269
  mediate consequence of this vote? Either way it must be very unfortunate. I regret that the controversy has reached us in this form, but it has reached us, and we have before us a choice of evils. I have been anxiously asking myself which set of evils is the lesser. In any case, someone will have to carry on the spiritual and daily work in the life of the Church, and if Parliament should dismiss the Church's request, who will carry on that work? Somebody will have to carry it on, and I do not think it will be my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. The Bishops, the clergy, and the Church Assembly, who alone can give the Church guidance, will have been repudiated by the House of Commons if this Measure is rejected. They will be unable to resign. They will be in the position of a Government which has been defeated on a vital question and is unable to resign.
  Mr. THURTLE: Why cannot they resign?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I do not think you could have a more melancholy spectacle than that. No doubt the Bishops will do their best, but no one is going to accept the vote of 14th June, 1928, as giving any spiritual guidance in regard to the religious body that will have to carry on the work of the Church. The Bishops will have no authority except in so far as they separate themselves from Parliamentary domination. I am not speaking for the Bishops. I have no right or claim to speak for them. I am only giving my own view. If this Measure be rejected, there will be a state of no law in the Church—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—and an increasing divergence of practice. If the Church breaks up into different sects, Low, Broad, and High, and if its dominant practice in future years diverges from the essential Protestant character of this country, it is always open to the State to apply its final remedy.
  8.0 p.m.
  Some people talk easily and airily about disestablishing the Church, but it seems to me that it is much easier said than done, and I do not envy any Government that has to enter upon the disestablishment and dis-endowment of the Church of England. The Liberals will not have the power, and a very exceptional situation would
  1270
  be required to make it likely that either a Conservative or a Labour administration would plunge into such a controversy. My contention is that the rejection of this Measure will inaugurate a period of chaos—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—which could only be corrected by disestablishment, but which would not be corrected by any party in any period which we can now foresee. I have yet to learn that there is a worse alternative than that, and that is the alternative which seems to rile to follow almost inevitably from the dispossession of the Church authorities from the control and guidance of their own spiritual affairs. In such a situation, one has to decide whether one wishes to see structures and unities dissolved, or whether one is on the side of those who wish to see the continuity of English life carried forward in a spirit of mutual forbearance. I have no doubt where I stand on that issue. I do not wish to see the continuity of English history violently interrupted. I do not wish to see the mitred front of the one great remaining Protestant Church in Europe irretrievably broken into discordant fragments. I would like to see the English people—and this is an English matter mainly—make a further effort to work together for the sake of preserving those English institutions which have largely formed the nation and which are ancient because they have been flexible.
  Mr. BARR: I have ever maintained that Protestantism is the last thing in the world that needs any defence of the civil power. We do it harm, being so majestical, no offer it either the show of violence or the defence of Parliamentary weapons, and yet my path to-night is to me as clear as noonday, and when I have gone into the "No" Lobby to-night, I shall feel that I have been faithful to the Church and public principles that I have constantly professed. Our intervention in this subject is demanded not only by the ordinary relations of Church and State, but also by the special circumstances of the Enabling Act under which this Measure comes before us. When that Act, the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, was before Parliament in 1919, the most clear assurances were given in both Houses of Parliament that Parliamentary power would remain unimpaired.

  1271
  The Archbishop of Canterbury said in another place:
  "Parliament retains its right not only in theory, but in practice."
  Lord Parmoor said:
  "The effective power of Parliament will be enormously enhanced."
  The Noble Lord the Assistant Postmaster-General, who has just left the House, said:
  "We have during the Committee stage strengthened the Parliamentary scrutiny to which measures under the procedure of this Bill will be subjected."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1919; col. 845, Vol. 122.]
  I submit that when these promises were made in connection with the passing of that Measure, it is not possible now to turn round and say that we must not touch or interfere with the liberties of the Church. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now that Parliament should use its constitutional powers with moderation. It seems to me to be equally a feature of the situation that the Church should use its powers with moderation in such a case. As for the native liberty of the Church, I stand for that. If any, more. I have stood all my life for spiritual freedom and for complete religious equality. Like many more in this House, I voted in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. I felt that I could do no other, that I should be false to every principle that I had ever professed if I did not east that vote, and I am prepared to do for Anglicans to-day what I did yesterday for Roman Catholics. But when a Church accepts privilege and endowment at the hands of the State, as trustees of the nation, we are bound, whether we like it or not, to see whether it conforms to its civil charter and to the conditions of its concordat with the State.
  The right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) said that if the Home Secretary had belonged to a disestablished Church, he would not have required to come here, but then the Church is not disestablished. That makes all the difference. He also said that it was a repulsive thing—and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer said something like it—that we should be dictated by political considerations, that this lay assembly was not qualified to judge in these matters. I never heard a clearer
  1272
  argument for the separation of Church and State in my life than that we are not qualified here to discuss these matters. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if we repeated our vote of December last, it would be chaos. It will certainly be no less chaos if we pass this Measure here this evening.
  I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. Dunnico) present, and I should like to refer to an argument which he used on the 6th June in a letter to the "Times". He was speaking of the rejection of this Measure, and he said:
  "We must avoid at all costs so grave a violation of our basic faith."
  What is the basic faith of Nonconformists?
  Mr. DUNNICO: Freedom!
  Mr. BARR: I should have thought it was part of the basic faith of Nonconformists that we purchased our freedom at a great price. I should have thought it was part of the basic faith of Non-conformists that there was some difference between a Church established by law and a Church that had purchased its liberties. I should have thought part of our basic faith was expressed in 1919 by one of the ablest Scotsmen who ever sat on these Benches, Mr. Bonar Law, who said:
  "You cannot have a State Church and yet have the absolute freedom which applies to a non-State Church."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1919; col. 1879, Vol. 120.]
  I should have thought that my hon. Friend would have accepted the basic faith of the Congregational Union, when they said in 1919, in connection with the very Measure which we are now considering:
  "So long as the Church enjoys the privileges of Establishment, and is maintained by tithes and other public funds, so long must its affairs remain under the effective control of the State as expressed through Parliament."
  We are told that Scotsmen should take no part in these discussions. One writer said that the rejection of December last was brought about by "Jews, Welsh ranters, and Scottish infidels." I am one of the Scottish infidels. But for English intervention in the past in the affairs of the Scottish Church, our Scottish moors would never have been dyed red with the blood that was shed in the days of the Covenant. There would have been

  1273
  no disruption in 1843, because the vote for the Church's claim was 25 to 12 in this House, and it was snowed under by English Members. The Noble Lady the Member for Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) spoke of what a lamentable thing the disruption in Scotland was. It will be equally lamentable if, by the passing of this Measure to-night, we create a similar disruption in the Church of England. But I do not speak
  "of old, unhappy, far-off things, and battles long ago."
  The Noble Lord the Assistant Postmaster-General, on the 9th February, 1928, said that
  "while the Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Members had a constitutional right to vote on the Prayer Book, they had no moral right."
  We had two Scottish Measures of great importance, the Acts of 1921 and 1925, great Measures that are threatening a disruption and schism in the Church of Scotland even to this hour. The Assistant Postmaster-General voted six times on the 1925 Act thereby justifying his moral right as an Englishman to take part in Scottish Measures. Not only so, but in 1921 he intervened in the Debate, and he gave two reasons. The one was that he was enamoured of the Measure, which would bring "re-union on the basis of Establishment." If ever any man has done anything to make another famous, I have made the Noble Lord famous, because I have quoted those words all over Scotland, in every parish. They suited me exactly, and he is known widely by that very fact, known as the man who made the disastrous intervention in 1921 and who now says that Scotsmen have no moral right to intervene in this Measure. He further gave a reason, which I will adopt to-night, for intervening in the Scottish Measure. He said:
  "We do so because, looking at it as outsiders, we realise the world-wide importance of the Bill."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd June, 1921; col. 1462, Vol. 143.]
  The right hon. Member for Hillhead and the Noble Lady the Member for Kinross both spoke of the independence of the Scottish Church and that it would have no trouble in a matter of this kind. I want to show that under its constitution and its concordat with the State the Church of Scotland as by law established to-day could not possibly do what we are asked to do here to-night.
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  It has special safeguards, and in its first Article certain things are laid down and are declared to be such as are vital, fundamental, and unchangeable. One of them is:
  "The Church of Scotland adheres to the Scottish Reformation."
  How is that defined? In the Scots Confession, which was her Confession from 1560 to 1647, explicitly and in the strongest terms, she is debarred from adopting what we are asked to do tonight:—
  "Adoration, veneration, bearing through streets and towns, and keeping of bread in boxes and boosts,"
  that is, aumbries, are forbidden as contrary to the Protestant faith, and under her very constitution and concordat with the State, she cannot attempt to do what we are asked to do here to-night. So also in the -Westminster Confession of Faith—her Confession since 1647. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead spoke of the Consecration Prayer. I do not go into that. All the Reformers say that the words that apply to the signs are often transferred to the things signified, and it all depends upon where and how the Consecration Prayer is used. Whether the words that the right hon. Gentleman quoted are used in a simple Presbyterian Church, or in some of the churches of the Anglican denomination that I have visited in Shoreditch, makes all the difference in the world.
  The Noble Lady the Member for Kinross spoke of reservation as being a common practice in the Church of Scotland. I know that Dr. Watson, in a 40 years' ministry, has only once gone with the Sacrament to the sick, and even then he had to get the authority of his Kirk Session, and he took it from the Communion Table, which, in the famous decision in 1900, to which reference has already been made, is declared not to be reservation at all. I had a statement to a similar effect from Dr. McLean Watt, of Glasgow Cathedral, in which he said that in all such cases he consecreated the elements anew, and he asked me to say in as clear and emphatic a way as I could that there was nothing in the Scottish Church or in its polity or administration of the Sacrament that gave a grain of foundation for reservation as is now proposed, and that reservation in any accepted sense of the term has

  1275
  no place in either the faith or the practice of the Scottish Church.
  For my own Church, I have been all over the country as Home Mission Secretary. I have seen the Sacrament dispensed in barns, in churches, and on hillsides, and I have never seen even the beginning of what we are asked to do to-night. I do not, however, want to give my own opinion. Dr. Sutherland, who is one of the principal Clerks of the General Assembly of the Church to which I belong, has sent me this letter:
  "The law is that, in cases of sickness, the minister, accompanied by one or two elders, may hold a Communion service in the sick-room, partaken in usually also by members of the family. The bread and wine are consecrated there, and there is nothing corresponding to Reservation in the Presbyterian Church."
  The Noble Lady made reference to Cranmer, and the Solicitor-General and others have mentioned Cranmer and Ridley. I am glad that his name was mentioned. He was the Archbishop of Canterbury, and I wish to say of the present holder of that great office, and I think I am speaking for all my colleagues here, that he, too, worthily upholds the illustrious traditions of that great See, and I venerate him, not only for his high personal qualities, but for his courage and noble action in causes that are dear to us on these benches. If I could do anything to gladden his heart I would gladly do it. Cranmer, like Ridley, amongst the Reformers, held that the elements of the Sacrament were not mere signs, but that they were visible signs of an invisible Grace. The real Presence was not in the Sacrament, but in the worthy receivers; and, after trial of reservation, he departed from it. On what grounds did he depart from it? I give the words, because they are most apposite to our controversy tonight. The abuses, he said, could not be taken away if the thing still remained.
  He recanted in 1556, and, in the forefront of his recantation, he put Transubstantiation. At the dictation of the Church, he abandoned his old position, and, because his right hand had signed that recantation, therefore, he said, it should first be burned in the flames; and Macaulay Trevelyan, in his History of England, says that that burning hand
  1276
  of Cranmer was a magnificent gesture. It is a magnificent gesture, not to his own time only; I look back across almost four centuries, and I see that burning hand of Cranmer in the lambent flames beckoning, I will not say with a magnificent gesture, but with what I believe will be a compelling and irresistible gesture—beckoning to this House here to-night.
  With him were associated, as we know, Ridley and Latimer. It was Ridley who taught Cranmer the Protestant doctrine of the Sacrament, and Latimer learned it, as he confessed at his trial at Oxford in 1554, from Cranmer. Out in the Lobby here you have the picture of Latimer preaching before Edward VI. He was taken to Oxford and tried, and he declared that the doctrines that we are dealing with to-night were utterly to be rejected. Then, on the 16th October, 1555, came the stake, and the oft-repeated words:
  "Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and let us play the man; we shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England as, I trust, shall never be put out."
  It is for us to-night to see, not only that this candle is not put out, but that we shall do nothing to bedim its pure shining, as it is described in the words of W. J. Mathams:
  "And we, the sons of those rugged sires,
  Who brought us our birthright through martyr fires,
  And gave us the glory we proudly prize,
  With the bleeding hand of self-sacrifice,
  Will guard that candle with resolute care,
  Which once was set burning in Oxford Square;
  Will guard that candle lest guile or ease,
  Should cause its flaming to flicker or cease;
  It has cost too much, and has burnt too well
  For the glorious land in which we dwell
  To let it go out—Aye, we'll keep it still,
  Let others walk in what light they will.
  By the Grace of God it shall not go out
  And our children re-echo the ringing shout—
  Latimer's Light shall never go out,
  However the winds may blow it about;
  Latimer's Light is here to stay
  Till the trump of a coming Judgment Day."
  Mr. LANSBURY: It is very difficult to follow a speech such as that which has just been made, especially when one has to take the opposite view to that taken

  1277
  by my hon. Friend. I would like to say to him, however, that in claiming, as most of the opponents of this Measure have claimed, that they have a kind of monopoly in the Reformation and in Protestantism, they are rather claiming too much. I claim to be as sincere an adherent of the principles for which Ridley and Cranmer and other martyrs went to the stake as my hon. Friend. I do not take the view that the Church of England, in bringing forward this new Prayer Book, has taken, or proposes to take, any step towards putting out the Protestant light in this country, and I rather resent the sort of atmosphere that is created that those of us who support this Measure are of necessity traitors to the Reformation. I have spent my life in causes and movements that have called for self-sacrifice, and for the giving up of position and place in order to stand for certain principles, and I have always felt that any movement which brings out the sacrifice side of man's character is a good movement, and, at least, has something in it that is worthy of respect.
  I have listened to most of the speeches against the Bill, and I cannot see where they put their finger on anything that shows that it is going to lead the Church of England back to the Romish practices my hon. Friend so much deplores and, because that is so, I rather resent the assumption that those who oppose the Bill are the only Protestants in the House. No one I have heard speak has really come to the point in regard to the position of the Church. Just now, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was speaking, it was cried out all round the House, "Why is the Book brought here? Why have they done this?" Also there is a sort of notion amongst some speakers that the Church, as it exists to-day, is responsible for the fact that it has to come here and that it is by law established and so on, whereas it is nothing of the kind. This also is true. There is no party in the House, neither the party opposite nor the party I belong to, nor what remains of the party below the Gangway, that proposes to put disestablishment of the English Church on its programme. None of them proposes to put the Church out of the position it is now in. Secondly, no one has faced the fact—and it is the essential fact of this controversy—that Parliament itself, in order to enable the
  1278
  Church to manage its own affairs without so much interference from Parliament, gave the Church the Enabling Bill and set up certain machinery whereby it could of its own volition propose certain changes and put them before the House.
  It has been stated again and again that this Measure is one to which the majority of the members of the Church of England are opposed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) addressed a great mass meeting at Darlington last night. I do not know how it was called or who were allowed to attend it or whether it represented Churchmen or whom it represented, but here are the facts of the case, that during the last few years the machinery of the government and administration of the Church of England has entirely changed. When I was a lad, and when men of my age were boys, the old ecclesiastical vestries carried on a very large part of the work which the present Borough and Town Councils and Urban and Rural District Councils carry on to-day. When the change came and the local government work was taken away from the vestries, new machinery had to be brought in for electing churchwardens and sidesmen and those who carry on the work of the Church and, as every Churchman knows, connected with every parish church today there is a Church Council elected by the members of the congregation and, by the way, by members of the Church of England who may not be members of that congregation but who reside in the parish. From that beginning, which is the foundation of the machinery for administering the church, there comes election to ruridecanal conferences, the ruridecanal conferences elect again the Diocesan Conferences and the Diocesan Conferences elect the National Assembly. It may surprise some hon. Members to know that I myself was elected a member of the National Assembly of the Church of England in the early days, but I never had the time to attend properly so I did not stand for election, or I might have been elected again.
  But it is untrue to say there is no machinery for getting the opinion of the laity. That machinery I have spoken about is in existence in every parish and diocese throughout the length and breadth of the land and it is the National Assembly, the body that represents the

  1279
  Bishops, the laity and the clergy, that have passed this Book, and therefore it is absolutely untrue to say it has been passed by the Bishops and the clergy and that it has been imposed upon members of the Church. There is no Nonconformist body which has a more democratically elected central authority than has the Church of England, and that is something entirely new during the past quarter of a century. Now Parliament has given this central body power, through certain machinery, to bring measures to this House, and this House also has machinery for examining any proposal passed by this Assembly to discover one thing only. There is a lot of argument as to why the Bill is here and why we should be asked to vote, and all the rest of it. The one thing the Ecclesiastical Committee is asked to inform the House is that no change of doctrine of constitutional importance is involved. That is to say, the duty of the Ecclesiastical Committee is to examine the proposal that is put before the House and to report whether it is in violation of constitutional usage or against the constitution in any way. On two occasions the Ecclesiastical Committee appointed by this House and by the other place has met and examined this Book. With great deference to my hon. Friends the Members for Paisley (Mr. R. Mitchell) and Motherwell (Mr. Barr), who, I have no doubt, are great theologians, I pin my faith to the Ecclesiastical Committee as to what this Book contains and does not contain. What does this Committee say? This is a point which I think really answers a considerable amount of the objection:
  "The Committee would not recommend any interference with the decisions of the Church Assembly on matters so clearly lying within the province of that assembly as the doctrines and ceremonial of the Church—"
  Your own Ecclesiastical Committee has said that is the right of the National Assembly, and it ought not to be interfered with. It goes on to say:
  "unless persuaded that any proposed change of doctrine were of so vital a description as materially to alter the general character of the National Church as recognised in the Act of Settlement and by the oath sworn by His Majesty at his Coronation, whereby His Majesty has promised to maintain the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law.
  The Committee have carefully examined the Measure and the Deposited Book from
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  this point of view, as well as the arguments of the objectors in relation thereto, and the replies of the Bishop of Chelmsford and other authorities of the Church. Without entering into argument on doctrinal questions, but having considered all that has been laid before them and the expressed opinion of the Archbishops and Bishops as to the doctrinal position of the Church of England, the Committee take the view that no change of doctrine"—
  this is the governing part—
  "of constitutional importance is involved, that accordingly the 'constitutional rights of all His Majesty's subjects' are not in this respect prejudiciously affected, and there is nothing to modify the purport of the Coronation Oath."
  I am going to say that I pin my faith to the new Book from the point of view of the Protestant Reformation. I pin my faith to the declaration of the Ecclesiastical Committee who have confirmed what the Archbishops, and Bishops, and clergy and laity of the Church of England had said it contained. Therefore, I think that, instead of our minds being horrified by the thought that perhaps we shall have the fires of Smithfield again about us, we had better clear our minds and clarify our thoughts by getting down to the bed-rock of the thing that the Imperial Parliament set up giving the Church authority to do this thing, and the authority that Parliament set up to examine what the National Assembly had done. These have all united to say that the Protestant Faith remains intact, untouched, unsullied, and therefore all the talk about going to Rome, all the talk about driving us back into the arms of the Papacy goes by the board. I am not able, and, of course, I ought not to take up the time of the House, to pursue that, but I want to do what other Members have done and that is to say one or two things on the general question.
  I am always very diffident in speaking about religion in public, because religion and professions of religion and so on are matters that ought to be, and are to a very large extent when they are real, something of primary personal importance, and only matters that the individual can really concern himself about. But I would like to say to my friends who do not understand why I defend the Church of England, that I was brought up in the Church of England. I am a very unworthy member of the Church of England and probably rather a heterodox member of the Church

  1281
  of England, but I do not forget that I learnt everything that is of any good in the midst of much that is bad in me—anything that is any good, I learnt at the knee of my mother, who was a member of the Church of England, and also at the feet of one of the best men who ever lived—John Fenwick Kitto, the Rector of Whitechapel—when I was a young man. I learnt from him that the Church of England was not a Church that shut people out, but that it brought people in: what I heard from the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) this afternoon when he was concluding his speech was an echo of what I heard many times when I was young, namely, that men worship God in a. multitude of ways. No one can say where and how you meet with God or how you can confess to God. Some men and some women think that, they can only worship God in a great ceremonial Service. Others can worship on the hillside or in a barn or anywhere else, but all of them, if they are sincere, are, in my judgment, worthy of respect and of approach to Almighty God.
  I think that it is rather a terrible thing that this House should only be crowded on occasions when theological matters are in dispute. What I feel that the country and the world are waiting and hungering and thirsting for is not disputations as to how we shall say our prayers to God but for a way of translating our prayers into everyday life. What mankind needs to-day is that we, those of us who believe in God, those of us who believe in religion, shall try and find out why it is that there is so little religion in our everyday life, why it is there is so little religion in our business life. It is quite right that this House should talk and think about religion, but it has to be a practical religion.
  I want to say one further thing. When you ask why the Church is here, I would say, as I said when I started, the Church has not come here just in these modern times. It has come here right down the ages. Any of you who bring children round this House or who show people round this House, if you tell them the story of this place, you are bound to tell them that the first beginnings of local government, the first beginnings of Parliament, were connected with the Church, You have to tell them that this is the House of St. Stephen. You have
  1282
  to tell them that it was in a religious house that the common people first found a place where they could meet. You have to tell them that right down the years there has been this association of religion of the Church with the State. And to-day, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, the Church comes to you through the only means by which it can come to you, and through the means by which you believe she can come to you, and she says: "Allow us to alter our laws." Just the same as occasionally the Nonconformist Church has to go to a civil Court to get an Order to alter the arrangement that some old man or old woman had laid down under which the Services should be carried on. The Church of England is here to-day, and I beg of my friends, and I beg of the House to put prejudice on one side and to face this issue from the point of view that the Church has not imposed itself upon the State. It has grown up with the State. It was here before the State, and has been part of the life of the nation. She comes to you to-night and asks you a perfectly simple thing: "Allow us to alter our method of worship. Allow us to change a small thing here and a small thing there in order to bring peace in our ranks."
  As to all the things that were said to the effect that the Anglo-Catholics ought to go out, let every man who belongs to a political party ask his conscience to-night how often he has to put his conscience or one side in order to act with other men and women. You cannot have organisation and absolute unanimity. You may have unity of purpose but there will be diversity of thought and action. I ask that the Church of England shall be judged in the same way and that to-night we shall give our votes not because we are Protestants, not because we are Roman Catholics, not because we are members of the Society of Friends, or agnostics, or whatever we may be, but because Parliament has said to the Church of England: "Here is machinery by which you can order your affairs," and because we believe that the Church of England has the same right to it as any other church in the land.
  Mr. RENTOUL: Like most hon. Members who have spoken, I intervene with considerable diffidence and for the very reason that has been so truly stated by

  1283
  the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), namely, that there are a few of us who have an instinctive dislike of anything in the nature of a public parade of our innermost thoughts and feelings with regard to these solemn matters. At the same time, I am grateful to have been afforded this opportunity of not giving an entirely silent vote in regard to a question which, I frankly admit, has caused me more personal anxiety than any other since I became a Member of this House. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Altrincham (Mr. Atkinson) made an eloquent appeal to us to keep an open mind. I think that I, at all events, can claim to have kept an open mind. On the last occasion that this matter was before the House I deliberately abstained from voting because I was quite unable at that time to decide which course would best contribute to the harmony, peace and progress of the Christian religion and the Church of England or which course was most in accord with the desires and aspirations of my constituents.
  Since then we have been afforded further opportunity for consideration and reflection, of which many of us have availed ourselves, even though we may be inclined to regret what appears to us as the somewhat unseemly haste with which this question has again been submitted to the House of Commons, without any substantial alteration being made to meet the criticisms that were previously pronounced in regard to it. We have been reminded frequently in the course of the discussion that this is a question which the Church authorities of this country have been considering for over 20 years. Would it not have been better if the House of Commons had been afforded a little longer period than six months before being invited to reverse the very clear and definite decision that it had given? However, as things are, individual Members are compelled to try and form the best judgment they can on such information and knowledge as they may happen to possess.
  One hon. Member complained this afternoon that there was a want of appreciation of the facts on the part of the opponents of the Measure. If so, we must be grateful that so much pains have been taken for our educa-
  1284
  tion during the past few months and weeks. We have all been subjected to an avalanche of propaganda statements and counter statements, far exceeding in volume and intensity anything that most of us have experienced in our Parliamentary lives. An hon. and learned Friend of mine on the Liberal Benches stated that he had read all the communications sent to him, a statement which, momentarily, left me breathless with admiration, because. I should have thought it quite physically impossible for him to have done so. All that most of us have been able to do, in our desire to inform our minds in regard to the issues and contentions on both sides, has been to choose those communications which by reason of their source and the eminence and authority of the writers appeared to possess special claims for consideration.
  There are two or three which I think most bon. Members have studied with special care. A good deal of reference has been made to the illuminating book written by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, which I read with profound interest and admiration: interest because of the extraordinarily lucid statement, as it appeared to me, of the historical significance of events in connection with this Prayer Book issue and on the religious aspect of the question, and admiration that in connection with his great responsibilities he could possibly have found time to have compiled such a book. I also read with care, the—if I may say so with respect—singularly unconvincing reply of the Bishop of Manchester to that book. I also read, as most hon. Members did, the moving appeal that was published by His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury.
  The last of these documents especially appealed to me, because it was expressly addressed to a class of individuals among whom I am inclined to number myself, namely, those who, to quote the words of the Archbishop:
  "have the religious wellbeing of England at heart but who find the ecclesiastical discussions either irritatingly puzzling or intolerably dull"
  Our duty is to examine this matter not as members of this church or that but simply as Members of the House of Commons. Therefore, for anyone who cannot claim to be an authority on the

  1285
  historical development or the doctrinal significance of many of these questions, what is our duty and what can we do? It seems to me that throughout this controversy we can only try to keep hold of a few definite guiding principles. What are those principles, as I understand them? I assume, to start with, that since the Reformation, certainly since the Prayer Book of 1662, the Protestant religion has not only been the law of the land but is in accord with the wishes, desires and beliefs of the majority of the people of this country. I assume that that is the state of affairs unchanged to-day. It is the only justification for having an Established Church that it should be in harmony with the wishes and beliefs of the majority of the people. Therefore, is not the real starting point for most of us who have to arrive at a decision the setting up of the Royal Commission which reported in 1906, and the fact that such an inquiry had become necessary because of the notorious abuses that had grown up in the Church of England, tending towards Rome. It was admitted at that time that something must be done. The Commission sat and inquired exhaustively into these matters, and it found the case proved up to the hilt and called upon the Bishops to apply an immediate remedy, especially in regard to certain outstanding matters. The present Primate, who was one of those who signed the report, said at the time these words:
  "The Bishops and clergy have been of late years too lax or, to use a colloquial expression, too casual. Episcopal authority will now be exercised decisively, and, if need be, sternly, wherever in England any difficulty arises."
  What has happened? Over 20 years have passed and it appears to be common ground that that authority has not yet been exercised as it might have been. What is the explanation, the excuse, which we are offered for this inaction? If I follow it it is this, that the Bishops were not in a position to deal with these specially grave and fundamental abuses, because there were many less grave illegalities and anomalies of which everyone more or less approved. The Archbishop of Canterbury when speaking in another place used an illustration which appears to me somewhat applicable in this connection. He was speaking of the
  1286
  argument which is advanced by those who say, "Why not accept the agreed portions of the Book and leave these few controversial matters on one side," and he said that that would be similar to men who were repairing a road which had various small holes and inequalities in it, but also certain places where it was actually dangerous and impassable, and if they were to do that it would be as if to repair all the minor defects in that road and leave the dangerous spots untouched.
  Might not that illustration be applied in another way? If we are told that the Bishops could not deal with the grave abuses because of minor illegalities and abuses which exist, is not that very similar to men who refuse to repair the dangerous and impassable spots in the road because they are unable to fill up all the holes and repair the surface the whole way along its course? There are various things, as it appears to a layman, that could have been done. Was it necessary, if episcopal authority was to be exercised to the full, to appoint men who were, from an ecclesiastical point of view, notorious law breakers? Was it necessary? Yet it seems to have been done over and over again. We have been appealed to by many hon. Members to place our full trust and confidence in the Bishops as the recognised authorities of the Established Church. There is a great deal of force in that appeal, but at the same time I think the words of the Home Secretary used in the course of the last Debate on this matter are still applicable. He said it was not a question of trusting the Bishops—
  "It is a question how so many of them can possibly deal with these offences when they have connived at their existence for 20 years past, and from time to time have appointed men who they knew to be guilty of these illegalities in the offices in the Church."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th December, 1927; col. 2546, Vol. 211.]
  9.0 p.m.
  It comes to this, that many of us are not satisfied to give this wider discretion under the mere plea of a greater elasticity or of bringing the Protestant Church more into harmony with modern ideas. Then we are assured that there is nothing in the Book which undermines the Protestant faith or changes the principles of the Reformation. In other words, that there is no change of doc-

  1287
  trine. This is one of the most fundamental matters we have to decide in arriving at a conclusion as Members of Parliament. We are told that all that is intended is to bring a Book that is 250 years old up to date and in accord with modern ideas. How is a layman, an ordinary Member of this House, to decide the fundamental question as to whether there is or is not any change of doctrine in the new Book when we hear that the authorities of the Church are disagreeing on the matter among themselves? We have had the opinion of the Archbishop of Wales quoted to us, and he says that there are fundamental changes of doctrine. We read that the Bishop of Birmingham says:
  "I hold that the changes proposed are such that the Reformation doctrine of the Sacraments is imperilled."
  Bishop Welldon says that he disagreed with the Archbishop of Canterbury in his statement that nothing they had suggested made any doctrinal change in the Church of England. He thought there was a change. Then there is the Bishop of Worcester, who says:
  "How could they honestly avow that here there was no change of doctrine?"
  I will not attempt to decide between these conflicting authorities, but it appears to me that there is unquestionably an element of doubt among the authorities of the Church themselves as to whether there is or is not a change of doctrine in the Book, and, therefore, since that doubt unquestionably exists it would be most dangerous to give sanction for the new Book and extend these greater discretionary powers. But there are one or two tests which we can apply. It is said that there is no change of doctrine. Reservation is permitted in the new Book, it is not permitted in the old. I find it almost incomprehensible to understand how it can be said, in the face of that fact, that there is no change of doctrine. We are told in justification of Reservation that it was practised and proved of the utmost advantage during the years of the War to the men who were fighting at the Front, and that therefore, having been practised there it should be continued now.
  Is that a really safe parallel? Many things were done during the War which
  1288
  one would be most reluctant to see brought into our life under normal conditions. Much of the Law of the land was definitely suspended during the War under the abnormal circumstances which prevailed, and, of course, that applied with greater force to what had to be done under the conditions which existed at the Front. Furthermore, what is the objection to Reservation? As I understand it is not in Reservation itself but in the view that Reservation inevitably must lead to abuses. Reservation may have been practised at the Front, but the very circumstances and conditions under which it was practised were in themselves a safeguard and a very powerful safeguard again any abuse. How can it be said, if Reservation is now permitted, that there is no change of doctrine, and it is a principle for which martyrs have been made and for which men have gone to the stake?
  I am mentioning some of the difficulties which occur to one as an ordinary lay Member of this House who has listened with the utmost care to the Debate and who is trying to preserve an open mind and arrive at a sincere and honest decision on this question. We hear that prominent Anglo-Catholics proudly declare that this new Book gives them all that they have struggled for for 40 years. We hear further—I think the Home Secretary referred to it—that the revisions that have been made have actually improved the Book from their point of view. We read that the Bishop of Durham has stated that the proposed changes are largely of the nature of concessions to the law-breaking party. Surely all this points to a change of doctrine? Otherwise it would have no meaning. If the Book is wanted merely to bring things up to date without a change of doctrine I would recall a statement made by the then Attorney-General in December last. That statement appears to me to be of very great importance, because it is either accurate or inaccurate, and if it is inaccurate it ought to be challenged to-night. For my own information and possibly for that of others I would like to ask whether the statement is correct. This is what the then Attorney-General said:
  "Ninety-nine hundredths of the new Book might he presented to the Church by the Bishops to-morrow, figuratively speaking, and ninety-nine hundredths of that Book, though open to criticism here or

  1289
  there, is not resisted by the great mass of British people or of the English Church. In substance we are all agreed about the whole of the Book, except for the service of Holy Communion and Reservation."
  If that statement is true, if ninety-nine hundredths of the Book is agreed to, what is there in the one-hundredth part, a comparatively small fraction, which is of such importance that the Church authorities are willing to jeopardise the whole Book if they can get that part—especially as we are assured at the same time that there is no change of doctrine whatever taking place in the teachings than are now put forward? I purposely avoided discussing these doctrines in detail or the safeguards which, it is said are provided. It is further stated, no doubt with truth, that there are two streams in the Church to-day, and that the new Book will unite those streams or bring them closer together. It may be true that the tendency of the new Book will be to cause those two streams to flow together, as it were, more in one channel. But what we fear is the direction in which the channel itself is going to flow, that the channel is a channel which is flowing towards Rome and away from the principles of the Reformation. Only in that sense does the new Book mean unity.
  Then we were told by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) that the Book will make for order in the Church. He dealt with the statement that has been published by the 2,000 clergymen, to which considerable reference has been made. I refer to the statement that, although they held the views of which we have heard, nevertheless if the Book were passed they would be prepared to give obedience to it. Is that possible? Can we believe such a statement as that? If I understand the declaration and the meaning of the English language, it was an emphatic declaration of their convinced belief in the principles of transubstantiation, which is a fundamental principle and is emphatically condemned by the new Book. Therefore, how can they possibly give allegiance to the new Book if they sincerely hold, as no doubt they do, those particular views?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a solemn appeal to the House to consider the consequences of rejecting this Measure. It was a statement and an
  1290
  appeal from which I most respectfully dissent. If, as many of us believe, this is a question of fundamental principle, it is impossible for us to be swayed by any fear of the consequences one way or the other. The Chancellor's view certainly was not the view of the great Protestant leaders of the past, who considered and feared the consequences so little that they actually sacrificed their lives by their disregard. In conclusion, I would summarise my opposition to the Measure in this way: I oppose it because it seems to me to fail in the very three tests that were suggested by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University. I oppose it because I believe it will not bring peace in the Church but will have the opposite effect. I oppose it because it appears to me unwise to entrust further discretionary powers in connection with the disallowance and curtailment of the practices of men, many of whom appear to be directly in sympathy with the practices which they are called upon to curtail. I oppose the Measure because it seems to open the door, whether intentionally or not, to doctrines and principles that were repugnant to the teaching of the Reformation. If it is repugnant to those principles, the question of safeguards appears to be altogether irrelevant.
  It may be necessary to bring the practice of the Church up to date after all these years, but principles are what we are talking about, and the principles of the Protestant religion are the same today as they were 250 years ago. There is no need to modernise the Book because, although men may come or go, principles are, or ought to be, eternal. I oppose the Measure, finally, because I am sincerely convinced, from the limited sources of information which I have been able to reach, that the new Book does teach doctrines which are viewed by many earnest people in the Church with distress and anxiety and even with abhorrence, and that the enactment of the Book in its present form will cause real distress of hind and even disturbance of soul to thousands of God-fearing men and women throughout the country.
  Mr. DUNNICO: The House is now approaching the end of a discussion which has attracted great interest, which has been listened to with calmness, and to

  1291
  some extent without passion, and in a very short time the House will be called upon to give its vote. Those who are in favour of and those who are against this Measure will agree with me when I say that the effect of their vote will be of vital importance not only to the Church of England as a Church, but to the whole future of organised Christianity in this country. There are Members in this House who do not accept the Christian faith at all, who are free thinkers and agnostics. [HON. MEMBERS "How do you know?"] I do know. There are Members of this House who are free thinkers, who are agnostics, who do not accept either the new Book, the old Book, or even the Bible itself as a code of authority. I do not for one moment wish to suggest that those Members are not entitled to exercise their vote. The only appeal that I make to them is—that they will consider this question with a sense of equity, with a desire to give fair play, and exercise good will. My chief appeal to-night is to those who share the Christian faith, or accept revealed religion, and I want at the outset to make a special reference to those Members of this House who are, directly or indirectly, connected with the Free Churches. The hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) made a veiled attack upon my position, and I want to reply to that attack and to indicate clearly what I mean by the Free Church position.
  If the Free Churches of this country stand for one principle more than another, it is this—that it is wrong, that it is un-Scriptural, that it is a violation of the highest traditions of the Free Churches, that the spiritual supremacy of the Church should be subordinated to the secular authority. The Free Churches of this country, in season and out of season, have declared that the Free Churches can acknowledge no lordship but that of Christ and can accept no authority but that of the Holy Spirit working in and through the Church. I do not suggest that the Church of England, as such, has any right to complain. I am now dealing with the position entirely from a Free Church point of view. It will be said, "Yes, we accept that principle; we are opposed to the spiritual being made subordinate to the secular authority, but here you
  1292
  have a State Church, a Church established by law, and as long as that Church is established by law, we reserve to ourselves the right as citizens to exercise our power and our discretion, either to sanction, or to refuse to sanction, decisions arrived at by that Church." The answer to that argument is that an Established Church by no means implies the right of the State to interfere in matters of doctrine or faith. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"] If my hon. Friends will listen to me, I will try to make clear what I mean. The Established Church of Scotland is a State Church, but that Church has spiritual autonomy and, notwithstanding what my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell may say, I say, distinctly, that there is nothing in the change suggested as between the Book of Common Prayer and the revised Book, which could not take place in the Church of Scotland to-day under the terms read out by him.
  HON. MEMBERS: Never!
  Mr. MACPHERSON: May I ask the hon. Gentleman what reason he has for making that statement?
  Mr. DUNNICO: My reason is that the hon. Member for Motherwell said that in the first Article it was laid down that the Church might not depart from the principles of the Reformation, but that, acting within that definition, the Church of Scotland has spiritual autonomy, and my declaration—hon. Members may disagree and I know some do disagree with it—is that there is no departure from the principles of the Reformation in the Revised Book. A second point is this. When the Prayer Book of 1662 was presented to this House there was more opposition against it than there is against the Revised Book now submitted. Yet Parliament, which asserted its right to reject the Measure if it so desired, accepted that Measure, notwithstanding the enormous opposition throughout the length and breadth of the country. The Church of England, I freely admit, is compelled now to come to Parliament and to obtain sanction for any change in its method of worship. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said, "It is in the bond." But there are legal and moral limitations even to the enforcement of a bond.

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  There is a classic instance of a man who enforced his bond to his own undoing. Shylock may have been a good business man and a good politician, but he was neither a statesman nor a saint. It is possible to enforce a bond in such a way as to violate even legal and moral obligations. But the reply to the hon. Member for Motherwell is this. Even if we have a legal right, even if we have, as citizens, a right to interfere with the verdict of the Church, no man who accepts the principle that it is wrong for the secular authority to overrule the spiritual authority of the Church should be guilty of using his vote as a citizen to do something which I contend is absolutely wrong and a violation of that principle. If a man puts expediency before principle, that is another matter; but if a thing is wrong, it is wrong, and because I am a citizen I have no right to take advantage of my legal position to commit what I believe to be wrong. Either it is right or it is wrong for the State to overrule the Church in matters spiritual; but if we Free Churchmen say it is wrong, then we have no right, whatever our legal position may be, to use that position to promote what I believe to be a violation of the fundamental principle of the Free Churches.
  Mr. BARR: Is it not true also that we should not be in such a position but for the establishment of the Church of England?
  Mr. DUNNICO: Yes, but the Church is established by law, and whether a Church is established or disestablished is not a matter for the Church; it is a matter for this House. If we want to disestablish the Church, we are perfectly entitled to use our political rights to do so, but I say, as a Free Churchman, that we are not entitled to use our rights to promote something which is diametrically opposed to the fundamental principle upon which the Free Churches are based. Having replied to my hon. Friend, I now make one or two observations of a general character, for I am under a pledge not to take many minutes. In the first place, we are told that one reason why we should reject the Measure is that it does not represent the real opinion of the Church of England. We are told that the Bishops have used
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  their position and their power to obtain a vote in favour of the Measure which is not representative of the laity. I reply to that contention in two ways. In the first place, if the Bishops have used their authority, influence, and guidance to secure a vote in favour of this Book, they have done something with which no believer in episcopacy has any right to quarrel. If you believe in an episcopal form of government in theory, you must accept the result of an episcopal form of government in practice, and if the Bishops, who are the princes of the Church, have used their influence to guide the Church along certain channels, they have only fulfilled the function for which they were appointed, which is part and parcel of Episcopal government.
  In the second place, when you tell me it does not represent the expressed opinion of the laity of the Church, that does not move me very much and for this reason. There are registered upon the parochial councils of this country something like 3,500,000 to 3,600,000 communicants of the Church of England. That is not an insignificant number. I believe it ought to be larger, twice as large, but, if laymen of the Church of England who have had this Act in operation for eight years have never taken the trouble to register themselves and to exercise the vote, why should they come to this House and ask us to do in this House what they might have dote for themselves? I would remind my hon. Friends on these benches that that is the charge often made against the trade unions and that charge will be made again. They are giving away a vital principle if they are willing to concede that those who will not take the trouble to exercise the franchise have the right to come here and get those who do exercise it over-ruled. After all, if people will not exercise the franchise they must take the voice of the people who do. Moreover, who are these 3,500,000 who have registered themselves upon the parochial councils? They include the very men and women who have not shirked their responsibilities, who attend their church, who take Communion, woo teach in the Sunday school, who fill the official positions, who carry on the work, month after month and week

  1295
  after week, and without whose work the Church and the Sunday school could not be carried on. What are the qualifications? Three Communions a year. I know a, Member of this House—I shall not mention names—who is going to vote against this Measure, a member of the Anglican Church, who has never taken the trouble to register himself on the parochial council or take Communions and who has neglected his duty as a Christian in his Church, yet he comes to this House and asks us to do something for him which he ought to have done for himself.
  We are told that, if only this Book is rejected, another Book is being produced which can be presented to the House with the good will of the Bishops and that all will be well. It is a very audacious proposal to make to a body of men, who, having spent 20 years of their lives on this Book, that they are now expected to accept a Book which is introduced by a body of competent men elsewhere. Had the Bishops accepted that offer, they would pronounce their own unfitness for their office, they would lose their self-respect, and would split the Church from top to bottom. I want to make a few inquiries from my hon. and learned Friend who is going to speak next. He said, in reply to my speech on the last occasion, that they would accept the whole Book with the exception of that part of it which related to the Communion Service. I put this question to him. Is his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary prepared to accept the whole Book with the exception of the Communion Service? Is he prepared to accept Prayers for the departed? Is he prepared to accept other matters which are controversial? My hon. and learned Friend knows perfectly well there is no agreement among the opponents of the Book as to what is controversial and what is non-controversial. If that offer were accepted, even then they could not get agreement upon the Book.
  Supposing the Communion Service were withdrawn? Nine-tenths of the trouble surround the Communion Service and it would still remain. If the Communion Service were withdrawn, you would be back absolutely in the position of 1906 when the Royal Commission was appointed. It is because the real difficulties surround the
  1296
  Communion Service that, if you were to drop the Communion Service from the present Book, you have not solved those difficulties. You have got all these illegal practices. Drop the Communion Service from that Book and every minister and every congregation will be a law unto themselves and the abuses will still go on.
  With regard to the doctrine of Reservation! I am not a Catholic, I am not an Anglican, but I say quite frankly that the practice of the Reservation of the Sacrament is not, either in origin or in inception, a Roman Catholic doctrine. We talk about pre-Reformation practices. The early Christian Church was pre-Reformation; the Bible was pre-Reformation. We did not start de novo at the Reformation. Some of the great Catholic doctrines and practices have gone back right to the second century of the Christian Church and the Reservation of the Sacrament is an old-established doctrine of the Church practised in the second century and practised to-day by Churches nearly all over the world which owe no allegiance to Rome. Supposing you leave that out. What are you going to do with those who continue to practise it?
  The other day I was talking to a friend of mine who is the vicar of a suburban church. He told me that on Whit Sunday he had something like 400 communicants at the church. He took three additional services in public. On the Monday morning, he went away at 7 o'clock to a hospital some mile away. He celebrated the Sacrament in the hospital chapel to some 25 or 30 people and then went into seven different wards to administer the Sacrament to several individual cases. Being a law-abiding clergyman, he went through the whole Service each time. He came back and went to six different houses to different sick people and again went through the Service there. I am not a Roman Catholic or an Anglican but a Nonconformist, and I say quite frankly that, if I were called upon to do that work, I would consecrate those elements in the church or chapel, taken them round, offer a simple prayer and administer them to the sick. Is a man going to be branded as a law breaker because he does that? What are you going to do with him? Are you going to unfrock him? Remove him

  1297
  from his position? Rob him of his benefice? Fine him or imprison him? You know perfectly well you dare not do it.
  There is one thing that this Parliament and no other Parliament dare do with impunity, and that is to bring itself into conflict with the impregnable rock of a man's conscience who is determined he is going to do a thing he really believes in. Believe me, there are hundreds upon hundreds of clergymen in the Church of England to-day who will exercise self-denial, who will give up certain practices, who will exercise self-repression at the authority and command of the Church which they love, but they will not accept the authority of Parliament upon those things. [Interruption.] No, they will not do it, and my hon. Friend is probably one of those who would defy the law himself if it suited his purpose. What I am trying to impress on the House is that there is a sphere within which Parliament can exercise its jurisdiction, and that is a sphere in which Parliament commands the respect of every law-abiding citizen; but if it steps beyond that, men will not recognise its authority, and all the law will not prevent them carrying out these things. It is because I believe that, that I think the passing of this Book will do more to restore order, and to bring back some who may he transgressing within the sphere of the Church, than all your Acts of Parliament. Supposing you reject the Book, how can you make these men obey? The Church has sanctioned it: it has the authority of the Bishops. How can you expect these men to refuse to practise something that the Church has declared to be in keeping with Christian doctrine, Christian truth, and the teaching of the Scriptures? It has been said that the passing of this Book will make it more difficult to get union between the Anglican Church and the Nonconformist bodies.
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Hear, hear!
  Mr. DUNNICO: I am glad to hear my hon. Friend say, "Hear, hear!" I have a word to say to him. The hon. Member is a member of the Congregational Church.
  Mr. BROWN: I am nothing of the kind.
  Mr. DUNNICO: The hon. Member is not very far from it, if he is not that.
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  He is a Free Churchman. When I came to this House this morning, I passed the end of Farringdon Street, and saw there the building called the Memorial Hall. That Hall is the headquarters of the Congregational Union and of the National Free Church Council, both of whom have issued manifestos against this revised Book and therefore in defence of the existing Book; and yet the very building, in which they both find their spiritual home, is erected in memory of 2,000 clergymen who, in 1662, left the Church of England because they would not accept the Book of Common Prayer. These men left the Church and faced poverty, scorn and social ostracism and even death, because they refused to accept a Book because of its Popish doctrines, and this Book has suddenly become the bulwark of Protestantism. The late Dr. Parker, of the City Temple, in referring to the existing Book of Common Prayer, said it was drenched with Popery. Apparently these Free Church leaders think that these 2,000 clergymen were mistaken, and were over-suspicious, and that there is no Popery in the Book of Common Prayer. If we pass this Book, perhaps 200 years hence somebody will think that my hon. and learned Friend was also over-suspicious when he raw Popery in it without just cause.
  I hope hon. Members will take what I am going to say in the right spirit. I have n ever taken part in any discussions with greater reluctance than I have taken part in this discussion tonight. If I could, without violating my conscience, have refrained from taking part in it, I would have done so. I have no quarrel with any Church. I am not a Roman Catholic, but I protest against same of the offensive references to those great sacred truths held by Roman Catholics. That Church has been a great spiritual witness throughout the centuries; it I as produced great saints, and although I cannot accept all its doctrines, I believe that that Church is a Church of God.
  It has not been easy to take the line which I have taken to-night. It has cut across lifelong associations; it has strained many friendships, but I have done it because I felt that I ought to do it. I hope that this is the last occasion the House of Commons will ever be called

  1299
  upon to discuss spiritual and doctrinal matters. I hope some step will be taken to relieve the Church from submitting these matters to the discussion of a House which, with all respect, is not really competent to discuss them. [Interruption.] I mean no disrespect. Naturally, in a mixed assembly like this, these great sacred doctrines cannot be discussed adequately, and so I hope that we shall settle this to-night. The world is getting very tired of these disputes. The average man does not take much interest in our wranglings and our distrusts, and to-night, when I give my vote for this Book, I shall say that I do not like some things in this Book, I do not understand some others. Some things in it are vague and indefinite, but after 20 years the Church has twice asked us for it. In giving my vote, I say to the Bishops, "You have given us your pledge that you will carry all these restrictions out, and we trust you as honourable men. If you break your pledge, the responsibility is yours, and this House of Commons will take further action." By my vote to-night I am saying to the Church, "You have too long been distracted from your proper work. Take this Book. Get on with the work which is really your function, and may the blessing of Almighty God rest upon your future labours."
  Sir THOMAS INSKIP: Until almost this moment, at any rate until this Debate began, I had regretted the necessity for it, but after the serious and informing discussion we have had I have changed my mind. The hon. Member who has just spoken expressed the hope that this might be the last occasion on which the House of Commons would discuss a spiritual question. I do not agree with him in the very least. I have been taught to think that character depends upon religion, and that this nation expects that its citizens should have characters founded upon a right conception of God and the relation of man to God, and I do not know how the National Parliament could spend its time better than in sometimes discussing these great questions. Therefore, I at once take leave to say that I disagree with the hon. Member. He is a minister, and I am a layman, but, if this House can discuss these questions as this question
  1300
  has been discussed during the last two nights, I believe that it would be as salt to the life of the nation that we should be obliged to consider matters of such great moment as these. The hon. Member then suggested that people outside the House of Commons took but little interest in these discussions. I confess that is not the evidence which has come to me.
  Mr. DUNNICO: I said, in my opening remarks, that for two days this subject had been discussed with great calmness. I never meant what the hon. and learned Member suggests.
  Sir T. INSKIP: I was dealing with a remark which the hon. Member made almost in his closing sentences, that the people outside this House take but little interest in this discussion. I repeat that that is not the evidence which has come to my notice. Whether the interest is rightly directly or well informed I do not pause to consider, but that the interest is as great and as far-reaching as any question has excited in my time I have no reason to doubt. Some people have wondered, as the hon. Member has wondered, why the House should take part in a discussion of this sort. I believe some people have thought and represented that the Bishops have been unwilling that the House of Commons should have a Debate of this character. I wonder which the Bishops would really prefer. Would they have preferred this Debate, or would they have preferred a scornful indifference to the whole question on the part of this House? I think I know enough of the Archbishops and Bishops to believe that the answer they would give to that question would be that they would rather this House was taking part in a Debate which might result even in the disappointment of some of their best hopes than that we should count these matters as of no interest to us in our deliberations. If that be so, and if that be the answer that we as well as the Bishops should give, that we must discuss those things, we must form our own opinions; and we must form those opinions free from the over-influence of political hopes or fears, and upon the information, the knowledge, and the teaching which we have been able to derive from the discussion of this question during the last few months.

  1301
  I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that these were grave issues and that it was our duty not to shirk them, but to decide. As to the gravity of the issue, nobody will have any doubt. It is that which has made this Debate so impressive. Why have hon. Members attended in numbers and for periods to which this House is unaccustomed unless they were seized of the gravity of this question? I do not know for a moment what the result of this Debate may be, but, if the Book were to be rejected, I do not believe there is a single Member who would say its rejection was due to any hostility to religion, but rather that it was the result of a genuine passion for the Faith of the nation. Surely, it is too late for the hon. Member to suggest that this is a matter upon which only members of the Church of England may intervene. The hon. Member himself intervened. A very Daniel come to judgment; more royalist than the King in some of the opinions he has expressed. We have been invited to attend discussions and addresses by learned men belonging to all the Churches. Dr. Selbie addressed the members of the Free Churches. A Presbyterian Minister, at the invitation of my Noble Friend the Noble Lady the Member for Perth (Duchess of Atholl) addressed Presbyterians. Was the object of those addresses to invite Members who attended them to refrain from holding, or forming, or expressing any opinions upon these matters? Or was it rather to enable them to form right opinions upon these matters?
  The interest we have all taken in this Debate is due, I believe, to the fact that the Established Church is more enshrined in the hearts of this nation than some of us had suspected up to this moment, enshrined not merely in the hearts of those who claim and own its allegiance, but in the hearts of those whose forefathers, perhaps, and families were connected with it, though they themselves find a difficulty about it. Many an hon. Member who belongs to the Free Churches loves the Church of England for all its traditions, and honours it for the purity of its doctrines, as they believe them hitherto to have been, and is glad to uphold a Church established, as they believe, on the sound foundations which
  1302
  have enabled that Church to prevail hitherto.
  I am not impressed with the cry that if we reject this Bill the Church is likely to be disestablished. I could understand tint argument if, for instance, by permitting perpetual Reservation you were wanting to commend the Church of England to the people outside the Church of England, but when you know, as, I think it must be admitted, that by admitting perpetual Reservation you are going to disappoint and trouble the consciences and hearts of people who are not within the Establishment, I should have thought it would be recognised that it is that which would tend to a revival of an active campaign for the disestablishment of the Church. Nor am I impressed with the opinions that have been expressed as to the chaos that is likely to follow from the rejection of this Measure. The Noble Lord the Member fir the University of Oxford (Lord H. Cecil) said in 1924 in the Church Assembly that it would be the height of stupid, insolent arrogance if the Church we it to Parliament and said that it should do as the Church told it. Parliament has exercised the duty of being a partner with the Church Assembly in the settlement of these questions, and does anybody believe that the Church, the, clergy and the laity are so petulant that they will deliberately allow a state of chaos to come into existence. I think better of them.
  We have had some ill-considered comparisons made between the so-called freedom of the Church of Scotland and the Church of England. I should like to ask the Scotsmen present what chance they think the Church of Scotland would have of retaining its freedom if it did not satisfy the religious instincts of the nation. Everybody knows that in the Church of Scotland the right of the people to choose the Minister has been established for three generations. Hon. Members who make these comparisons appear to want the freedom of Scotland for this purpose, but why are they not prepared to bring into the Church of England the same freedom? You cannot take this matter in parts. If you want to build the Church of England upon the Scottish motel, you must build it upon the whole Scottish model. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] Is it suggested

  1303
  that the Church of England is likely to be built upon that model?
  Sir R. HORNE: It is quite capable of doing it.
  Sir T. INSKIP: My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) says Scotland is quite capable of doing it, but I would like to ask him if hon. Members are prepared to apply the same principles of religious freedom as exist in the Church of Scotland to the Church of England. If so I think I am entitled to say that he should have secured the consent of the Bishops.
  Duchess of ATH0LL: I am very sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend, but he has, quite unintentionally, I know, misrepresented what I said when I compared the position of the Church of Scotland with that of the Church of England in the matter of spiritual independence. I said that in the Revised Player Book the Church of England was only claiming a fraction of the liberty-enjoyed by the Church of Scotland, and I ventured to suggest to my fellow Scottish Members they should be very chary of helping by their votes to refuse to the Church of England something much less than the Church of Scotland enjoys.
  10.0 p.m.
  Sir T. INSKIP: Of course, I entirely accept the Noble Lady's correction, and the accurate statement of her argument, but I think I am within the recollection of the House as to what was said about the freedom of the Scottish Church. The Scottish Church is able to be free to some extent, because her laity have the means of seeing that her Ministers and services will be conformable to their taste. It is said that the Episcopalian Church in Scotland has perpetual Reservation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Is it possible that it is because that Church practises Reservation that it is so much out of touch with the great mass of the people of Scotland? It really is not much good stating the practice of the Episcopalian Church of Scotland in this connection.
  It is said that we do not really appreciate the merits of the Measure before us and the extent to which the authorities honestly attempted to meet us. I think we do understand. I thought we
  1304
  understood it on the last occasion when my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) supported the Measure, and the Bishop of Truro and Lord Shaftesbury supported it. Now that the Measure has been altered, it is said, to meet the opinions of the House of Commons, these three gentlemen find it impossible to support the Measure. Does it not follow from the attitude of these gentlemen that we were right in our understanding on the last occasion, and I think that now also we understand the position?
  I do not think the observation of the Noble Lady the Member for Southend (Countess of Iveagh) was altogether worthy of her eloquence when she said that it, is, in fact, much easier to appeal to prejudice than to reason. If the Noble Lady had stopped there, I should not have criticised her, because that is something in the nature of a platitude. The Noble Lady went on to say that in that matter the opponents of the Measure had been in a much stronger position, and, when she says that, I respectfully say that I do not think that was worthy of the tone of this Debate. The hon. Member who has just sat down made a statement not very far from that made by the Noble Lady, when he wrote a letter to the "Times" and said opposition to this Measure was based upon either prejudice or bigotry. Therefore, there is no escape for me or my hon. Friends from that dilemma. Either I am prejudiced or else I am a bigot of the deepest dye. That is the hon. Member's opinion of those who are opposed to him on this matter.
  Then we are told that this Measure is only opposed by extremists? But who are the extremists? What is the answer which has been given? It is said that they are the people who oppose this Measure, but is that really so? Who is the more extreme, the Bishop of Exeter or the Bishop of Durham? The Bishop of Durham supports the Measure and the Bishop of Exeter opposes it. Does the Bishop of Exeter become an extremist because he opposes this Measure? Who is the more extreme, the Archbishop of Wales, with his long record of distinguished service, or the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University? Can it be possible that the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford Uni-

  1305
  versity is moderate and the Archbishop of Wales is an extremist?
  A few days ago there were two letters in the "Times" newspaper. One was sent by a number of heads of colleges at Cambridge, and another was sent by a few other heads of colleges at Cambridge, and I think all, or almost all, the Professors of Divinity at Cambridge. Are all the Professors of Divinity who oppose the Book extremists, and extremists merely because they oppose the Book? That seems to me to be the logic of the hon. Members who say that this Book represents the middle way and that only extremists oppose it. We can- not settle our vote on this question by looking round for people to follow. That is not the Englishman's way. Nor can we do it by looking round for somebody to oppose. I received a letter two days ago from a Bishop who is supporting the Book, and he said in his closing sentences:
  "If you people could only see how you are helping the Anglo-Catholics."
  So that is why I am required to support this Book, to dish the Anglo-Catholics, and not to support it on its merits. He criticised my opposition to the Book because I am helping the Anglo-Catholics. It shows a radically wrong perception of the attitude which some of us take up. I have no desire to dish or drive out the Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England, provided they will agree and find themselves capable of agreeing to the proper limits of the Church of England. They are entitled to as much liberty as any of us, and to the opinions which they hold, within the limits which I have described. We cannot settle our individual votes by looking round for people to oppose.
  The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University referred to the declaration of belief which 2,000 clergymen have made, and he said that that is not a declaration of what they intend to do in the future, but only a declaration of belief. At any rate, it is a declaration of what these people regard as their duty to do in the future, and I mention this because I want to pass on rapidly to consider another question, and that is the possibility of this Book as a producer of peace. How is peace going to be ensured by the Bishops after this Book
  1306
  has passed? The Anglo-Catholics are the people who are chiefly concerned, and it is a curious fact that this Book has provoked, apparently, their fighting spirit, if that Manifesto is to be intelligently understood. The theory of the first Book was that the Anglo-Catholics were to support it, and they were prepared, we understand, to support it. We Evangelicals were not prepared to support it. Now the Book offends not merely the Evangelicals but the AngloCatholics also. The curious merit of this new Book as a peace-producing instrument is that, instead of offending only one section of the Church, it now offends two sections of the Church. That is a curious argument for this Book as a. peace-producing Book.
  Then my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, in that speech which we all so much admired, so sincerely admired, if he will allow me to say so, referred to a letter from the Archbishop of Canterbury in which a promise was given that discipline would be enforced and the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University painted a picture in which I half believe and which I half doubt, as to the way in which the Bishops would impose discipline upon the Church in the future. I do not know whether hon. Members heard the Home Secretary read the speech of the Bishop of Lincoln, in which he said, they must take their liberty, if we would not give it to them. They have been taking their liberty in advance for the last six months or year. If these people are so ready to take their liberty in advance, why will they not give us a little discipline in advance? If they are not going to wait for liberty, why should we wait for discipline? I should believe in some of these roseate pictures of the ease with which the Bishops in future will produce discipline in the Church, if I saw some indication and desire on the part of these persons who believe in discipline to give an earnest of their intentions.
  But, indeed, this promise of acquiescence is a curious business. Let us analyse it for a moment. There are a large number of priests in the Church of England who practise at the present time Reservation with Adoration. Adoration is given to Reserved Elements because they believe sincerely and deeply

  1307
  that it is their humble duty to give it. That is what is expressed in that Manifesto to which I have referred:
  "We believe that Our Lord is present in the Sacrament when Reserved, and, therefore, is always to be adored with like acts of adoration."
  Very well, in future they will be allowed Reservation, but they will give up Adoration if Reservation is made legal. They do not give up their belief in that duty to adore to which I have referred. Does it really seem likely that a bargain of that sort, so unreal, is likely to have the character of permanence about it? Can they help in time teaching, almost unconsciously, to those who are their pupils the duty at any rate if not of adoring, of making the Reserved Elements the focus of devotion? This promise of acquiescence in the discipline of the Bishops in the future, it seems to me, is an unreal one unless we can be satisfied that these 2,000 clergy are genuinely convinced that in the past they have been wrong in believing that Adoration is due to the Reserved Elements.
  I think there is a little misconception in the minds of some hon. Members about the nature of Reservation altogether. We speak of it sometimes as if it were always the same thing, and very often it is two things and perhaps even three things. For instance, my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General gave some experiences on the strength of a letter that appeared in the "Times" as to the practice of what was called Reservation in the field. I was a little sorry that that was brought up. There were many practices in the War which may have been necessary, but I cannot believe that it is right that the Church should alter its doctrine or practices because of what was done in circumstances of grave difficulty in the War. I have been shown a letter in which a mother who lost her two sons was harrowed to think that such practices in the War had been brought up to justify something which, in her deepest heart, she believed to be wrong; but that is by the way. Reservation of the character that took place on those occasions, at any rate, was not the Perpetual Reservation that is likely to lead to Adoration. It was the immediate administration which many people have described as Current Administration or Extended Communion. So far as I
  1308
  am concerned, as the Solicitor-General said, I have been prepared to assent to some such practice as must necessarily be carried out in our large hospitals, where you cannot have a separate celebration in every ward and room in a hospital, from one end to the other. But Reservation which is really Reservation is not this Extended Communion, but Reservation in circumstances which lead to adoration. Here, I think, if he will allow me to say so, my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General a little failed to appreciate one passage in the Report of the Royal Commission to which he referred. Reservation under conditions that lead to adoration was one of the illegal practices. Everyone knows, or, at least, I think that the Royal Commission certainly knew and intended to show, that Reservation in a place above or about the High Altar, with a light burning before it of a perpetual character, was Reservation under conditions which were likely to lead to adoration—which would inevitably lead to adoration; and, if that be so, this Book is going to legalise that. If that be an illegality, and my hon. and learned Friend admitted that it was one of the illegalities in the Royal Commission's Report, it is an illegality which this new Book is going to legalise.
  Sir BOYD MERRIMAN: My hon. and learned Friend will remember that, in the new Rubric, there is a provision that the Reservation shall not be immediately above or about the High Altar.
  Sir T. INSKIP: The Elements of the Sacrament will be reserved either in the north or in the south wall of the chancel, and they will be there under conditions which, in my submission to the House, will inevitably lead to adoration. My hon. and learned Friend may not agree with me, but I think I am justified in repeating what the Home Secretary has mentioned, namely, that, when the proposal was made to the House of Clergy that, in order to prevent these conditions that are likely to lead to adoration, no light or other mark should be used, nor any public notice to indicate whether the bread and wine are or are not reserved, the House of Clergy rejected it by 82 votes to 74, and the Bishops, I suppose in consequence, refrained from inserting any such Rubric as that. Therefore, in future, by the deliberate decision of the House of Clergy, the use of a light

  1309
  will be permissible in front of the aumbry or in front of the north or south wall of the chancel where the reserved elements are kept, and, having regard to the deep and sincere belief which these Anglo-Catholics have in their duty to adore, I say that those are conditions which will lead to adoration. The Archbishop of Canterbury himself is conscious of this danger. He said, in his book which was circulated a few days ago:
  "Most fully do I admit the existence of dangers in connection with Reservation, and it is, therefore, our deliberate policy, not only to discourage it as far as is in our power, but to prevent any use of the sacred elements except for the Communion of the Sick."
  The important passage in that sentence is, "as far as is in our power." Our forefathers had experience of Reservation of this character. It was in the 1549 Book, but the experience of three years years led them to agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury that there were dangers, and that it was necessary to do all in their power to discourage it. They knew the extent of their powers, and they dealt with it by making it illegal altogether. That was the way in which they discouraged it to the utmost of their power. I respectfully suggest that we shall have the same experience in the years before us. We, too, shall have to turn back our steps if we take this step to-night.
  Then I want to refer to what has been said more than once in this Debate, and said in rather a wounding way, namely, that we are anxious to repress and restrain the religious convictions of people who have as much right as we have to hold religious opinions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hillhead said that he wished to see charity as wide as the love of God. I agree with him. I would discourage no man's religious belief or his expression of it, but there are limits to every Church. I could understand my hon. Friends making this plea if they themselves were not going to impose any limits upon the religious expressions of people in the Church of England; but it is the essence of their case that they are going to impose such limits. Their whole case for appealing to the House of Commons to trust them is that they are going to repress and restrain—[Interruption]. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is good enough to say, "Not by
  1310
  Parliamentary authority." Yes, if he will allow me to say so, it will be by Parliamentary authority, because the enactments, either in the Measure or in the Rubrics of the Book which are part of the Measure, make it illegal for anyone to adore the Sacrament. I should like to ask my right hon. Friend: Is that exercising charity as wide as the love of God?
  Sir R. HORNE: My hon. and learned Friend forgets the passage in which I said so long as the fundamental basis of religious truth is preserved and the essential character of Protestant doctrine is not endangered, charity ought to be wide.
  Sir T. INSKIP: I entirely accept my right hon. Friend's explanation. All say is that the difference between us is not as to whether we should exercise charity or not. The difference between us is what are the fundamentals. We are indeed making a. momentous change in this matter. The expression is not mine. It is the expression of so moderate, learned, and holy a man as the Archbishop of Wales. Once you begin to touch changes of religion, you do not know where you are going to stop. I should like to commend to the House, as the wise expression of a very wise and learned man in days when these troubles were engaging men's hearts, in the time of the Commonwealth, what John Selden wrote in his Table Talk:
  "Alteration of religion is dangerous, because we know not where it will stay. "Tis like a millstone that lies upon the top of the stairs. It is hard to remove it, but, if once it be thrust off the stairs, it never stays till is come to the bottom."
  We are making a momentous change in religion. Beware lest you do not know where it is going to stop. When you find it has gone further than you intended, a new generation will have been trained, with ideas foreign to the teaching of our Church.
  We have been challenged to produce a policy. The hon. Member who spoke immediately before me challenged me to refer to what I said in the previous Debate as to accepting nine-tenths of this Book. He asked me what I would do. I will tell him a little piece of history—it is hardly right to call it history, but a statement of what I have done in that connection. I was prepared

  1311
  to take a great responsibility upon myself, which perhaps I had no right to do. I ran the risk of being told I was sacrificing my principles to expediency. With the concurrence of the Home Secretary and the present Lord Chancellor, I went to the Archbishop of Canterbury and told him that, with whatever influence we had, we were prepared to assent to a Measure passing through this House provided it did not include this perpetual Reservation, which is the keystone of the system. In his wisdom the Archbishop of Canterbury perhaps thought that offer unworthy of further consideration. It was honestly made. 1 believe if the Home Secretary and the Lord Chancellor and myself— I hope the House will not think this is taking too much upon us—had expressed that opinion, I believe that we should have had enough of our hon. Friends to go with us to ensure the passage of such a Measure through this House of Commons.
  Was not that a fair offer, more especially as we are told by Sir Lewis Dibdin, the Dean of the Arches, that this perpetual Reservation is going to be used only in one or two cases where there is a nursing home or a hospital. It is true the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University said the Dean of the Arches' narrow interpretation was rather in the mind of the Dean than in the rubric itself, and the Archbishop of York gave weighty support to the Noble Lord's interpretation. At any rate, the Dean of the Arches said that this is only going to be the practice in one or two churches here and there. Is it really worth while raising all this upheaval because of this small practice, which is not going to be for the relief of consciences all over the Kingdom and bring the doctrines of the Church of England into accord with the doctrines of the people, but is merely going to provide facilities which Archbishops Temple and Maclagan, a few years ago, said might be provided by the priests in the course of their ordinary administration and duties?
  Mr. DUNNICO Mr. DUNNICO rose—[Interruption].
  Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask all hon. Members not to interrupt.
  Mr. DUNNICO: On a point of Order.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member himself knows that he has gone beyond his time, and he should not interrupt.
  Sir T. INSKIP: I think it is fair to the hon. Member to say so much. I think it is fair to the country and to this House to say that the people who are called extremists and are said to be unwilling to yield a jot or tittle, made a genuine effort to secure the passage through this House and through the Assembly of the Church of England of a Measure which would include not everything we like, and something we do not like, but, at any rate, would exclude that fundamental and fatal error, as we believe it to be. I have said all I have to say on this difficult question. People wonder why the House of Commons is so strangely moved over this question. We feel in the House of Commons the pulse of the people. The Noble Lady the Member for Southend (Countess of Iveagh) said that public opinion is ill-informed on this question. I do not agree with her. In three or four centuries we have had some practice in considering it. The English people need no brief to inform or instruct them on this matter. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University spoke about unity in essential matters. I do not know why in a larger spirit of charity in the future we should not recreate our English Church by bringing into it elements that are out side, that are not in it now. But if it is to be the Church of England it must teach the faith of the people of England. That Church need not fear disestablishment, for it will be established in the hearts of the people.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I should like at the beginning of the few observations which I desire to make to thank my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for the reference which he made to me at the begining of his speech. No colleagues have worked in closer harmony than we have, or than we shall. On this matter every Member of the Cabinet recognises that those who have taken part in this Debate have been actuated by sincere and profound convictions. He has done me the honour to say that he respects my convictions, and he recognises that whatever office we hold in the Government we have an equal right, no more and no less, to speak to this House on a matter about which we

  1313
  feel deeply. This is the third day, counting the one day last December, that this matter has been discussed, and by this time, if not before, the vast majority of this House have made up their minds as to the course which they are going to take in the Division half an hour or so hence; the more easily, perhaps, because in questions of this kind guidance comes so much more from instinct than it does from reason. To whichever side we belong, those of us who are already convinced of the course which we shall take, no argument can move; but there are some among us, o mere fraction by now, who have had sincere difficulty in making up their minds whether to abstain or, if they vote, which side to take, and who do not feel perhaps directly interested in these matters and have felt, possibly, that the arguments on either side were so evenly balanced. It is to them, perhaps, that I, as one with no special learning or knowledge of theology, belonging to no organised party in the Church of England, and who has taken no part in any of these discussions from the day they first began until these Debates in the House, address myself: and it may be, possibly, that I can be of some help to such hon. Members if I put before the House some of the reasons which have seemed to me good in making me take the course I am taking, and some of the points which, I think, perhaps have hardly been adequately answered for those of us to whom they appeal.
  I will speak very briefly on two or three points which have been raised in the Debate and then I will say a few words on some points that have had, in my view, insufficient attention paid to them. I wish to remind the House of a point that was raised in a very able and sincere speech made by the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) last night, unfortunately at so late an hour that the attendance in the House was not such as the speech deserved. I would once more emphasise, in a few words, the point that he made. He was speaking as a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee on the examination which was given to this Measure by that Committee, a Committee of selected Members from amongst us, whose duty it was to advise the House; Members of all parties and
  1314
  belonging to various denominations. He called tae attention of the House to their Report, which they laid before the House, and in which these words occurred:
  "The Committee would not recommend any interference with the decisions of the Church Assembly on matters so clearly lying within the province of that Assembly as the doctrines and ceremonial of the Church, unless persuaded that any proposed change of doctrine were of so vital a description as mater ally to alter the general character of the National Church as recognised in the Act of Settlement and by the oath sworn by His Majesty at his Coronation, whereby His Majesty has promised to maintain the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law.
  The Committee have carefully examined the Measure and the Deposited Book from this poin5 of view, as well as the arguments of the objectors in relation thereto, and the replies of the Bishop of Chelmsford and other authorities of the Church. Without entering into argument on doctrinal questions, but having considered all that has been I lid before them and the expressed opinion of the Archbishops and Bishops and to the doctrinal position of the Church of England, the Committee take the view that no change of doctrine of constitutional importance is involved, that accordingly the constitutional rights of all His Majesty's subjects ' are not in this respect prejudicially affected, and there is nothing to modify the purport of the Coronation Oath."
  The hon. Member argued, and with reason, that that being the reference from the Ecclesiastical Committee, it was doubly important the House should give the most unprejudiced consideration to this Bill as to whether they should accept it or reject it. The other point on which I desire to say a word is a point that has been mentioned in several speeches a 1c1 has been alluded to within the last hour. It is this. Suppose the Measure goes through it will be giving a setback to, and possibly destroy, any prospects there may be of what is called Christian reunion. I have heard that view stated from several quarters in this House; and I will place my difficulty frankly before the House. What puzzles me is this. I read, as every other hon. Member has read, that Professor Garvie, Dr. Scott Lidgett, Professor Carnegie Simpson, Professor Selbie and Dr. Vernon Bartlett would like to see this Bill pass, and the reason I lay stress on these names is this, that the first three gentlemen whose names I have mentioned have been engaged for the last four years in the conferences at Lambeth con-

  1315
  netted with Christian re-union, and that the other two gentlemen have been closely associated with this work. If there was any prospect that the passage of this Measure would imperil Christian re-union, I cannot think that these gentlemen would be supporting it.
  There is one other point which deserves an answer, although it almost answers itself. It has been said, and said with truth, that there is a lack of enthusiasm in the support for this Bill. Of course there is. There is always a lack of enthusiasm for compromise. Enthusiasm naturally belongs to the two parties who do not want it, that is to say, not as the hon. and learned Member for Bristol Central (Sir T. Inskip) said, on the part of the Evangelicals, but a portion of the Evangelicals, not on the part of the Anglo-Catholics, but a, portion of the Anglo-Catholics. Having touched briefly on these points, I want to make one or two observations about the nature of the Church of England, upon whose faith we have to give a decision very shortly. I spoke briefly on this subject last December, and I will try not to repeat myself. But there is something I said then which I must say again, because it is very pertinent to my argument. I speak my own convictions in this matter, though I think they are probably shared by a great many people in the Church of England.
  To me and those who think as I do, the great value of the Church of England in the world lies in this, that she occupies, as it were, an intermediate position among the great Churches of the world, and she alone, from a set of causes that can hardly have been designed, has, from the time of her emergence in her present form, contained two distinct streams of spiritual thought, Evangelical and Catholic. Those two streams have helped to keep each other pure and sweet, and have ensured spiritual progress, and have been, as it were, a preservative salt against sterilisation and decay. It has been only when the Church has lost her elasticity and her sympathy and when she has come, as churches do from time to time, under the dominant influence of those—I was going to use the word "fanatical," but I will not say that—who would exclude all others but those who see eye to eye
  1316
  with them—it has been at those times that disaster has come to the Church.
  It was at such a time that the Church lost Wesley. It was a time like that when the Church lost Newman. It was a time like that when the Church persecuted Colenso and the modernists of his time. It was a time like that when the Church instituted those prosecutions under the Public Worship Regulation Act —prosecutions that proved the greatest stimulus to ritualism in the Church of England that it has ever had. The Church has never been without her saints, drawn indifferently from both those streams. Within our lifetime—I shall mention only two names though there are many more—there have been two saints, if ever there were saints, in Edward King, Bishop of Lincoln, and Bishop Chavasse, of Liverpool, who is just dead, representing those two streams. I want those two streams to go on. I want to see the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary representing those streams in the Church of England.
  We have heard a great deal about lack of discipline in the Church, and great stress has been laid upon that, and very naturally. I do not think that anyone, at least not while I have been in the House, has tried to make clear to the House what is the origin of this lack of discipline. I shall tell the House shortly how I see it. It is difficult, perhaps, for those who are not members of the Church of England to realise that, so far as the law is concerned, you may make no changes in the contents of the Prayer Book; that is to say, if you employ a shortened form of service, if you leave out the Litany or the Athenasian Creed on the day when it is due to be said according to the rubric, you are committing an illegal act. From that you can imagine how many illegal acts may be and are committed to-day in nearly every parish church in England. As was suggested by one hon. Member, the difficulty of choosing and selecting the particular illegal act upon which the authorities of the Church will try a man is almost insuperable. This position has arisen because in a constantly changing world, and under modern conditions, and in the light of modern knowledge, the Church is hound legally hand and foot to a Prayer Book dating from 1662.

  1317
  Consider the position of the ordinary parson, of whom we have heard very little to-day—of someone who is trying to do the work which Mr. Shepherd is doing in St. Martins-in-the-Fields. All that work of his is illegal. What men like-minded with him want is a Prayer Book drawn up more in accord with the times and with the spirit of the age in which we live, with Morning and Evening Prayers such as are given in the new Prayer Book shorter and more flexible than the old form. In the new Service and the new Book, you have the possibility of these shortened forms and you have—and these points I do not think have been mentioned—allowed for the first time in the history of the Church of England the use of what has always been regarded as a great privilege by members of the Nonconformist Churches, namely, extempore prayer. You are also allowed the use of special collects and special prayers provided they have been authorised by the Bishop. The whole of the work that has been done on the Deposited Book is work of a liberalising nature, to make the Book more adapted to the times in which we live. I know what the answer will be and I will come to it in a minute, but as little has been said about this, there are just three instances which I would give of the spirit—the New Testament spirit, if I may so call it, as opposed perhaps to the Old Testament spirit—which permeates this Book. I would refer particularly the members of my own Church to the Service for the Public Baptism of Infants. I know myself how many parents feel pained at the phrases to which our ancestors were accustomed and which caused no pain to them.
  "Forasmuch as all men are conceived and born in sin."
  These words have become very painful to many parents who are for the first time taking a child to the font. As the new Service runs the words are:
  "Seeing that all men are horn their birth prone to sin,"
  with which none of us would disagree. I will only give two more instances, one from the Burial Service and one from the Ordination Service. In regard to the Burial Service, many parents have felt as the Service was being read over the body of a child, that some of the
  1318
  phraseology was unsuitable, and instead of the passage:
  "In the midst of life, we are in death; of whom may we seek for succour but of Thee O Lord, who for our sins art justly displeased."
  the words of the 103rd Psalm are inserted as an alternative:
  "Like as a Father pitieth his own children: even so is the Lord merciful unto them that fear Him."
  These words will make for the greater comfort of many, many parents. Then there is the Ordination Service, and this is the last quotation which I have to give. Where in the old service the Bishop said to the ordinand:
  "Do you unfeignedly believe all the Canonical Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament
  the words are now added:
  "as given of God to convey to us in many parts and diverse manners the revelation of Himself which is fulfilled in our Lord Jesus Christ."
  I have read those few extracts. They are typical and characteristic of the emendations throughout the Book to show that the one object in this Book is to make it more suited and better adapted to this generation than the wording of the existing Book, however sacred it may be to us. But all these advantages are to go if this Measure is defeated, because there yet remains the question of Reservation, on which so much has been said during these Debates. When I see that, for one thing alone and that on which no party is united, the rest of this work of 20 years is to be sacrificed, I cannot fail to see how history repeats itself, and I will follow the example of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, by giving one more extract from Froude. In 1545, Henry VIII issued a General Proclamation that certain prayers at morning and evening Service and the Service for the Burial of the Dead, all in English, should be used in all churches a ad chapels in place of the Breviary. The ultra-Protestants and the ultra-Catholics disapproved, and Froude's comment is:
  "The surest testimony to wise and moderate measure s is the disapproval of fanatics of all kinds."
  I would remind the House of just one other thing. The time is long past when the field of this Parliament and the Church of England was co-extensive.

  1319
  The Church of England has spread with the Empire and exists in our Dominions, in India, and in the Colonies, and has an enormous membership of various native races. The problems common to us at home are not unknown abroad and overseas; they are looking with grave anxiety at the attempts we are making at home to restore discipline to the Church and to give the Church a Service Book adapted to the times. The unity at home is bound up in a way it never was before with the unity overseas, and more than one speaker has attempted to forecast what may happen if the Measure should either get through or fail. If the Measure fails to get through, I will tell the House quite frankly what it is that disturbs me. I feel that the result of defeat will weaken the hands of those in authority in the Church for a considerable time to come, that it will give an immense impetus to the very forces which those who are opposing this Book are desiring to curb; and if hon. Members will put to themselves frankly the question, "Which vote of mine will help or hinder the cause of religious progress in this country?" I feel that, although difficulties will follow, whatever the result of our voting may be, the difficulties that will face the Church, in the event of the rejection of the Bill, are infinitely more formidable.
  I want, before I finish, to say one word on a subject which has been mentioned by several speakers, and that is the question of Disestablishment, which, I think, has much more chance of being brought nearer again into the political sphere by the rejection of the Bill. [Interruption.] I am giving my own opinion. We all have our opinions on this subject, and this is what I fear. It is not the loss of income, but the spiritual loss that I fear, and that alone. Under whatever auspices and under whatever conditions the Church of England were freed completely from such State control as exists to-day, I do
  not believe—I hope I may be wrong—that she will remain long as an entity, with these two streams of spiritual life, the Catholic and the Evangelical, running together. I believe that it is its connection with the State, galling as it may be at times, illogical as it seems to many, that keeps these two streams running in confluence in the Church of England, and I should regard loss of that as irreparable, because if the Church of England as we know her were to disappear, there is nothing that could be set up to take the peculiar place which she holds.
  The Church is asking of the House of Commons liberty, as she believes, to achieve unity. The House will say whether they believe that to be a request which should be granted, and they will express by their vote their confidence in her to do what she thinks she can do, or otherwise. Those who are responsible for the government of the Church, the great majority of them, believe that by this means alone they can bring back the discipline which we all desire to see. That is their belief. They have pledged themselves, as was told the House by the Solicitor-General, to that end, and they will act as a body in attempting that task. What is the answer of the House of Commons to be? Will the House say to them, "We do not trust you. We do not believe you. You are promising what you cannot do."Or will the House say to them, in the words of the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) last night, "We accept your word, and we wish you God-speed in the work to which you have put your hand."
  Question put,
  "That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Prayer Book Measure, 1928, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent."
  The House divided: Ayes, 220; Noes, 266.

  Division No. 162.]

  AYES.

  [11.2 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Atkinson, C.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Baker, Walter

  Braithwaite. Major A. N.

  Albery, Irving James

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brass, Captain W.

  Alexander, E. E. (Loyton)

  Bainlel, Lord

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Amnion, Charles George

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Broad, F. A.

  Apsley, Lord

  Bellairs, Commander Cariyon

  Bromley, J.

  Astor, Maj. Hn.John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Bennett, A. J.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. T.

  Athoil, Duchess of

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Brown.Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnlsy)

  Perring, Sir William George

  Buchan, John

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Hannesay, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Burgoyno, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Burman, J. B.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J G.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Buxton, Rt. Hon, Noel

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Mun.)

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Raine, Sir Walter

  Cayzer, sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hopkine, J. W. W.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Cazalet. Captain Victor A.

  Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W.Bromwlch)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Moneley)

  Roberts. E. H. G. (Flint)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Horllck, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Ropner. Major L.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

  Ruggles-Brise. Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynamouth)

  Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. 0.

  Hudson, J. H. (Hnddersfield)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Savery, S. S.

  Cooper, A. Duft

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks. W.R., Sawerby)

  Cope, Major Sir William

  Iveagh, Countess of

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)

  Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'c ton)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Kindersley, Major Guy M.

  Smithers. Waldron

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  King, Commodore Henry Douglas

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  Lensbury, George

  Stanley, Lord (Fyide)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'elasd)

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

  Lister, Cunllffe, Rt. Hon. sir Phillip

  Styles, Captain H. Walter

  Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Prater

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovll)

  Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Loder, J. de V.

  Thomson, F. c. (Aberdeen, South)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Long, Major Eric

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. sir W. Mitchell-

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Lougher, Lewis

  Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

  Day, Harry

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Duckworth, John

  Luce, MaJ.-Qen. Sir Richard Human

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Duncan, C.

  Lemlay, L. R,

  Ward. Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Dunnico, H.

  Lenn. William

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Ellis, R. G.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-S.-M.)

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Malt land, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Frsmantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Gates, Percy

  Me:rgesson, Captain D.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Marriott. Sir J. A. R.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  GilIett, George M.

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks.Richm'd)

  Golf, Sir Park

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Milchell, W. Foot (Saffron Waldin)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  MlichelI, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Withers, John James

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine)

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Wolmer, viscount

  Grenfell. Edward C. (City of London)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Grotrlan, H. Brent

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Wood, B. c (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon.F. E. (Bristol, N )

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Cilve

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Maylor, T. E.

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Gunston, Captain D, W.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Harland, A.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nlcho!son,Col.Rt.Hon.W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes)

  Patin, John Henry

  Major Birchall and Lieut-Com-

  Hasiam, Henry C.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  mander Kenworthy.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Berry, Sir George

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

  Bethel, A.

  Butt, Sir Altred

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Campbell, E. T.

  Alien, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Cape, Thomas

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Sawyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Briant, Frank

  Cayzer.Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Brittain. sir Harry

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Brockfebank, C. E. R.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Barnes, A.

  Bromfield, William

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Barr, J.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Christie, J. A.

  Beam'sh, Rear.Admiral T. P. H.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Bullock, Captain M,

  Cluse, W. S.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles O.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  1322

  1323

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Jephcott, A. R

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretfore)

  Couper, J. B

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks.W.R., Ellano)

  Cove, W. G.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Cowan, 0. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvtrtown)

  Rye, F. G.

  Cowan, Sir Wm Henry (Islingtn. N.)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Galnsbro)

  Kennedy, T.

  Sandon, Lord

  Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

  Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

  Curzon, Captain viscount

  Knox, Sir Altred

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Davies, Rhys John (Wetthoughton)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sexton, James

  Dennison, R.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Dixey, A. C.

  Lawson, John James

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Lee, F.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Drews, C.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

  Locker-Lampson. Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  England, Colonel A.

  Lowth, T.

  Sinclair. Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belts"

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  M'Connell, Thomas E.

  Smillie, Robert

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Macdonald. Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Macdonafd, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Smith,R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C)

  Falls, Sir Charles F.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  McLean, Ma|or A.

  Snell, Harry

  Fermoy, Lord

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  MacNeill-Weir, L

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Storry-Deans, R.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Strauss, E. A.

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Malone, Major p. B.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Gibbins, Jeseph

  March, S.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Meller, R. J.

  Tasker, R. Inigo

  Gosling, Harry

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Templeton, W. P.

  Grace, John

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cant.)

  Mitchell. S. (Lanark. Lanark)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Grant, Sir J. A.

  Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Greenall, T

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Greenwood,Rt. Hn.Sir H.(W'th's'w,E)

  Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

  Tinne, J. A.

  Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Morris, R. H.

  Tomilnson, R. P.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Griffith, F. Kingsley

  Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Vlant, S. P.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Waddington, R.

  Groves, T.

  Neville, Sir Reginald J.

  Wallhead. Richard C.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Nield. Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Hacking, Douglas H.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Hall, Lieut.-col. Sir F. (Duiwich)

  Oakley, T.

  Watts, Sir Thomas

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad )

  Owen, Major G.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hamilton, Sir George

  Paling, W.

  Westwood, J.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Whiteley, W.

  Hanbury, C.

  Philipson. Mabel

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Pilcher, G.

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Potts, John S.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Harvey. G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Preston, William

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

  Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

  Pringle, J. A.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield. Attercliffe)

  Hilton. Cecil

  Radford, E. A.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Hirst. G. H.

  Ramsden, E.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Windsor, Walter

  Hoillns, A.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Wragg, Herbert

  Hutchison, Sir G. A. Clark

  Remer, J. R.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Young. Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Illffe. Sir Edward M.

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Richardson, Sir P. W.(Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Riley, Ben

  Sir John Pennefather and Mr. Hayes-

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

WAYS AND MEANS [8TH JUNE].
Resolution reported,
WAYS AND MEANS [8TH JUNE].

  ENAMELLED HOLLOW-WARE.
  "That during a period of five years beginning on the thirteenth day of June, 1928, there shall be charged on the importa
  1324
  tion into the United Kingdom of wrought enameled hollow-ware, whether of iron or steel, of a description commonly used for domestic purposes, a duty of Customs of an amount equal to 25 per cent. of the value thereof."
  Resolution read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 311; Noes, 128.

  Division No. 163.]

  AYES.

  [11.14 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jones, Sir G.W.H. (Stoke New'gton)

  Albery, Irving James

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovll]

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Alexander, sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kindersley, Major Guy M.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  King, Commodore Henry Douglas

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Dlxey, A. C.

  Klnloch-Cooke. Sir Clement

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Applln, Colonel R. V. K.

  Drewe, C.

  Lamb, J. O.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wllfrid W.

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Atkinson, C.

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Ballour, George (Hampstead)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Balnlel, Lord

  Ersklne, Lord (Somerset, Weston-.-M.)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Ersklne, James Malcolm Montelth

  Locker- Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T, p. H.

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Loder, J. de V.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Long, Major Eric

  Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Falls, Sir Charles F.

  Lougher, Lewis

  Berry, Sir George

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Bethel, A.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, w. R., Sklpton)

  Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Galbralth, J. F. W.

  M'Connell, Thomas E.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Gates, Percy

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Bourns, Captain Robert Croft.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart

  Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon, Sir John

  Maclntyre, Ian

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  McLean, Major A.

  Braithwalte, Major A. N.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Brittaln, Sir Harry

  Grace, John

  Maltland, A. (Kent, Faversham)

  Brocklebank, C. E, R.

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Grant, Sir J. A.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'N,E)

  Mason, Colonel Glyn K.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Meller, R. J.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Grotrlan, H. Brent

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, M.)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Burman, J. B.

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Hacking, Douglas H.

  Moles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Calne, Gordon Hall

  Hamilton, Sir George

  Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

  Campbell, E. T.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Harland, A.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Cassels, J. D.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Cautley, Sir Henry s.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennlngton)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth.S.)

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Cazalet, Captain victor A.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G.(Ptrsf'd.)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Oakley, T.

  Chllcott, Sir Warden

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Viviar

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Christie, J. A.

  Honeage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Pennefather, sir John

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hilton, Cecil

  Penny, Frederick George

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Hohler, Sir Gerald Fltzroy

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nn.)

  Perring, Sir William George

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Couper, J. B.

  Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Phllipson, Mabel

  Courtauld, Major J. W.

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Plldltch, Sir Philip

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Isllngtn., N.)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Preston, William

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Pringle, J. A.

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Hutchison, Sir G. A. Clark

  Radford, E. A.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Illfte, Sir Edward M.

  Raine, Sir Walter

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Insklp, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Ramsden, E.

  Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Galnsbro)

  Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Remer, J. R.

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Watts, Sir Thomas

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

  Wells, S. R.

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

  Roberts Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Ropner, Major L.

  Storry-Deane, R.

  Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Rye, F. G.

  Styles, Captain H. W.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Salmon, Major I.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Withers, John James

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Womersley, W. J.

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Tasker, R. Inlgo.

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Templeton, W. P.

  Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Sandon, Lord

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Savery, S. S.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. sir W. Mitchell.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

  Tinne, J. A.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Shaw, R G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Wragg, Herbert

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Slmms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Waddington, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Major Sir William Cope and Captain

  Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Wallace.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staft., Cannock)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Saklatvala, Shapurll

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hayes, John Henry

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Baker, Walter

  Hirst, G. H.

  Sexton, James

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hollins, A.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Barnes, A.

  Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Barr, J.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesday)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Brlant, Frank

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Broad, F. A.

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

  Bromfield, William

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

  Bromley, J.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Snell, Harry

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Buchanan, G.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Cape, Thomas

  Kelly, W. T.

  Strauss, E. A.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lawrence, Susan

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Lawson, John James

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lee, F.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Tomlinson, R. P.

  Day, Harry

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dennison, R.

  Lunn, William

  Vlant, S. P.

  Duckworth, John

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Duncan, C.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Dunnico, H.

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

  Wellock, Wilfred

  England, Colonel A.

  March, S.

  Westwood, J.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Maxton, James

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Morris, R. H

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Glbbins, Joseph

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Gillett, George M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Gosling, Harry

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin.,Cent.)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Greenall, T.

  Owen, Major G,

  Windsor, Walter

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Paling, W.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Grentell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Griffith, F. Kingsley

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Potts, John S.

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

  Groves, T.

  Riley, Ben

  Whiteley.

  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Finance Bill that they have power to make provision therein pursuant to the said Resolution.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  EDUCATION (SALESMANSHIP).
  EDUCATION (SALESMANSHIP).
INDIA.
  HOMICIDE.
  HOMICIDE.
  ANTI-RABIC TREATMENT.
  ANTI-RABIC TREATMENT.
  SIRDAR DIWAN SINGH (ARREST).
  SIRDAR DIWAN SINGH (ARREST).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS
  SENIORITY.
  SENIORITY.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  "P" CLASS CLERKS.
  "P" CLASS CLERKS.
  MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS DUTY.
  MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS DUTY.
  CURRENCY NOTES.
  CURRENCY NOTES.
  SPIRITS (STATISTICS).
  SPIRITS (STATISTICS).
  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (POSTCARD COMMUNICATIONS).
  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (POSTCARD COMMUNICATIONS).
  POOR LAW (RELIEF, BEDWELLTY).
  POOR LAW (RELIEF, BEDWELLTY).
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (CROTON OIL).
  MENTAL HOSPITALS (CROTON OIL).
POST OFFICE.
  SORTING CLERKS AND TELEGRAPHISTS, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  SORTING CLERKS AND TELEGRAPHISTS, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, BISHOPSGATE.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, BISHOPSGATE.
  STAMP MACHINES, TOTTENHAM.
  STAMP MACHINES, TOTTENHAM.
  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
  CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE FORCE.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE FORCE.
  GREYHOUND RACING TRACKS (POLICE).
  GREYHOUND RACING TRACKS (POLICE).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, the LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

INFANTICIDE BILL. [H.L.]
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I ask leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law with regard to the crime of infanticide, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Darling.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a.
SCOTTISH INSURANCE COM PANIES (SUPERANNUATION FUND) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
EXETER CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

OXFORD EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with regard to this Bill I beg to move the Motion on the Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 143 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Bill read 3aaccordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF STRADBROKE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, before the Motion is put might I ask the noble Earl one question? I happen to have been acquainted with the Ouse Drainage Bill from the start, having been Chairman of Quarter Sessions before which the matter came on a legal point. The decision then given led to a large number of subsequent proceedings. I want to ask the noble Earl whether the proposals now contained in the Land Drainage Provisional Order Bill are agreed to.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: My Lords, the object of this Provisional Order Bill is to alter the provisions of a Provisional Order Act of 1920 relating to the area under the jurisdiction of the Ouse Drainage Board set up by the Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Confirmation Act, 1920. Following on the passing of that Act, considerable dissatisfaction was shown with the rating provisions by certain owners and occupiers in the upland area on the ground that they were being rated without deriving any benefit thereby. This dissatisfaction culminated in passive resistance and forced sales being held. As a consequence of this, Provisional Order Acts were passed in July, 1925, and August, 1926, suspending up till January, 1928, the rating provisions in these areas.
A special Commission was set up by Lord Irwin, the late Minister of Agriculture, in August, 1925, to consider the whole problem of the Ouse, and as a result of the Report of that Committee a Bill was introduced into Parliament in March of last year to deal with the question. That Bill contained a clause extending the suspensory period for rating in the area covered by this Bill until a day to be appointed by the Minister of Agriculture. On November 11 of last
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year, after a lengthy hearing, a Joint Committee of both Houses decided that the Bill could not proceed. The effect of that Bill being thrown out was that the suspensory period in respect of the area covered by this Bill came to an end on January 1. In consequence, notice was given of the introduction of this Bill. The Bill follows the usual precedent of Provisional Order Bills made under the Land Drainage Act, 1918, and provides that no rating can be levied in this contentious area during the suspensory period, the suspensory period being after December 31, 1927, until such day as the Minister of Agriculture may by Order determine. During the suspensory period no works may be executed by the Drainage Board in these areas, except with the consent of those representing the area concerned.
LORD PARMOOR: I am perfectly aware what is in the Provisional Order scheme, but I wanted to know whether it was an agreed scheme. I know that I have not given notice of this question and if the noble Earl cannot answer it I will not press it.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): If the noble Lord will give my noble friend notice he will get an answer directly.
On Question, Bill read 2a.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (PETERBOROUGH EXTENSION) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SWINDON EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH (HALIFAX AND WEST RIDING PROVISIONAL ORDERS) CONFIRMA TION BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 7) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (GILLINGHAM EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 8) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Amendments proposed by the Committee made.

INDIAN HIGH COURTS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, unless there is any point in relation to this Bill about which any of your Lordships feels any doubt—in which case I shall be very happy to attempt such explanation as is in my power to give—this is not a matter, I think, on which
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I need detain your Lordships for long. The Bill received the support of my predecessor Lord Olivier, as Secretary of State, of Lord Reading and his Government, and it has equally received the support of myself, of Lord Irwin, the present Viceroy, and the Government of India as at present constituted. The High Courts in India are manned by persons with one or other of four qualifications. The Judges must have been either barristers called to the Bar in this country or members of the Indian Civil Service with long judicial experience as District Judges, or members of the Provincial Judicial Service with equally long judicial experience, or, lastly, pleaders practising at a High Court Bar in India. A succession of authorities for many years has formed the view now that it is not defensible or logical that any class of men capable of being elected to be puisne judges in a court of first instance should be excluded if recommended for their merits for the position of Chief Justice. This is the principal change effected by this Bill. There are others upon which, perhaps, I need not now dwell. The position of a vakil is assimilated to that of a barrister, but the pre-judicial qualifying period is increased from five years to ten years and is made the same in both cases. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Birkenhead.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I think this Bill is quite right and I have no criticism to make upon it; but I should like to be reassured by the noble Earl on one point. The Memorandum begins by setting out certain provisions of the Government of India Act, 1915. Among these is subsection (4), which provides—
"that not less than one-third of the Judges of a High Court, including the Chief Justice but excluding additional Judges, must be such barristers or advocates as aforesaid, and that not less than one-third shall be members of the Indian Civil Service."
As I understand the meaning of the Bill, it is proposed to alter that provision by enabling anybody who is otherwise qualified to be Chief Justice, and also to add, after advocates, the word "pleaders," so that the law will be that a Judge of the High Court must be a barrister of England or Ireland, an advocate in Scotland or a pleader of not

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less than five years standing. That is quite right, and I assume that I interpret that correctly.
But I do not like the words "barrister of England or Ireland, or a member of the Faculty of Advocates in Scotland" remaining there, because I look forward to the time when they will be called to the Bar in India. It is to my mind a great evil that so many young Indian lawyers should have to come over here, where they get a training which is by no means suitable, and are at a loose end, instead of pursuing their legal studies in India in the atmosphere of the Courts and among the pleaders there. That can be done hereafter, if it is decided to do it, by an Amendment, and I think there must be an Amendment, and I want to guard myself against in any way assenting to the proposition that a barrister should be a barrister only of the English Bar or an Advocate of the Scottish Bar. Subject to that, and subject to its being clear, which I think it is, that a vakil is now put in the same position as a barrister, by the amending Bill, I see no reason why this Bill should not pass.
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: My Lords, with reference to the points raised by my noble and learned friend, the subsection to which he referred requires, as he has pointed out, that at least one-third of the Judges of the High Court are to be barristers. It has been found from experience that it has often tended to result in the necessity of selecting a barrister for a vacancy in preference to a vakil whose qualifications may easily be markedly superior. It is the purpose of this Bill to place the vakil is this respect in the same position precisely as a barrister. I will not at this stage deal with the other matter raised by my noble and learned friend, as he himself, I think, will probably conclude that if he desires to move at all upon this topic, the convenient stage to do so will be in Committee.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BANKERS (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Preamble:
Whereas by virtue of certificates issued under Section eight of the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845, the aggregate amount of bank-notes which banks in Ireland may issue in excess of the amount of gold and silver coin and other currency held by those banks was fixed at six millions, three hundred and fifty-four thousand, four hundred and ninety-four pounds, and such excess issues are hereinafter referred to as "fiduciary note issues":
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL)THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL) moved to leave out "may" and insert "are authorised to," and, after "of" ["of gold and silver coin"] to insert "bank notes issued by them against." The noble Viscount said: This is really a drafting Amendment to the Preamble. It really improves the drafting, and makes the Preamble clearer.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 4, leave out ("may") and insert ("are authorised to,") and after the second ("of") insert ("bank notes issued by them against").—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The next Amendment deals with the same point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, after ("such") insert ("authorise").—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Preamble, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Short title construction and commencement]:
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved, after subsection (1), to insert the following new subsection:—
"(2) In the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845, references to the Dublin Gazette shall be construed as references to the Belfast Gazette."
The noble Viscount said: I think it is obvious why "Belfast" is substituted for "Dublin" which appears in the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845. I am advised

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that it would be possible to make the alteration by adopting a certain clause in the Act of 1922, but it is more convenient to do it by direct legislation, and that is why this Amendment has been brought forward. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 13, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.

CURRENCY AND BANK NOTES BILL
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Securities for note issue to be held in issue department.
3.—(1) In addition to the gold coin and bullion for the time being in the issue department, the Bank shall from time to time appropriate to and hold in the issue department securities of an amount in value sufficient to cover the fiduciary note issue for the time being.
(2) The securities to be held as aforesaid may include silver coin to an amount not exceeding five and one-half million pounds.
(3) The Bank shall from time to time give to the Treasury such information as the Treasury may require with respect to the securities held in the issue department, but shall not be required to include any of the said securities in the account to be taken pursuant to Section five of the Bank of England Act, 1819.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert "and commercial bills not exceeding five and one-half million pounds." The noble Viscount said: I should like to point out that the whole of this clause is a bad innovation. It begins by saying—
"In addition to the gold coin and bullion for the time being in the issue department,"—
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the amount of which is not stated—
"the Bank shall from time to time appropriate to and hold in the issue department securities"—
again, it does not say what sort of securities, whether foreign bonds or what not—
"of an amount in value sufficient to cover the fiduciary note issue for the time being."
The old £5, £50 and £100 notes are backed by gold. As I understand it, these fiduciary notes will not be backed entirely by gold.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Not at all.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Not at all! That makes the case even worse. I notice that silver coin is referred to in subsection (2), and I suppose that is the debased coinage which was issued a few years ago. It is bad enough to have even silver. Then there is a very wide subsection regarding securities, and I understand that commercial bills are included under "securities." Surely, they ought to be equally limited in amount. I have placed my Amendment on the Paper in this form—although I know perfectly well that commercial bills are included under "securities"—in order that a limit might be put upon securities as well as upon silver. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 17, at end insert ("and commercial bills not exceeding five and one-half million pounds").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: I think the Amendment moved by my noble friend is an example of the difficulties one has in dealing with this Bill, when different schools of thought are constantly fighting against each other. I was contending during the Second Reading debate to make it plain to those who press very strongly that "securities" should include commercial bills, that I understood that it did include commercial bills. Now I have the noble Viscount on the other side who apparently dislikes these commercial bills. He wants to limit them to a very small amount. The noble Viscount said he belonged to one party and I wanted to point out that there was a very strong party on the other side. The general commercial opinion is, I understand, that certainly a proportion of the securities held against the fiduciary issue should be in commercial bills. It would

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be a pity to limit the particular bills to £5,500,000. It might quite well be that in many circumstances of the market it would be very desirable to have a good deal more than that held.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Is the noble Viscount prepared to limit them to some extent?
VISCOUNT PEEL: I will tell the noble Viscount why not. He is so very obliging always with his Amendments. I am not quite sure what limitation he wants. I would ask him not to put any limitation because immediately you classify the different securities to be held against the fiduciary issue you then begin to interfere very greatly with the discretion of the Bank of England as to the class of securities which it should hold against the fiduciary issue. I would, therefore, urge my noble friend not to press his Amendment about limitation to £5,500,000 and indeed not to put in any limitation on the amount of commercial bills, otherwise he is bound to put limitations on the other classes of securities which make up the general securities to be held in support of the fiduciary issue.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If the noble Viscount would put a limit on all these different classes of security I should be more than satisfied.
VISCOUNT PEEL: That would mean we should have to put in a series of limits and I hope the noble Viscount will not press me to do that.
LORD SWAYTHLING: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount who has just sat down mistook something I said on the Second Reading. I rather gathered that he thought I pressed him to include dollar bills. As the law stands, under the Bank Act dollar bills are now included and the Bank of England have power, I understand, at the present moment, to transfer any security held in the Banking Department to the Issue Department. That would include at the present moment commercial bills and also commercial bills in foreign currencies. What I drew the noble Viscount's attention to was this, that these commercial bills should only be held in those currencies which are on a definitely free gold basis. As to the suggestion that there should be a limit to these commercial bills, there is no limit at the present time and I do not
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see what advantage there would be in fixing a limit for the future. If we look back at the expansion of business since the Bank Act we will realise that if a limit had been put then on the number of commercial bills used it would have been considerably smaller than the limit which might be put now. If we put a limit now we might have to amend that limit very considerably in the future and that, I think, world be a very great mistake.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to omit from subsection (3) all words after "department." The noble Viscount said: Under Section 5 of the Bank of England Act, 1819, once a year a return of certain information has to be made to Parliament. The Bank of England is not a Government Department; it is a private concern. I think the public ought to know what sort of securities are being held to back the fiduciary issue. I therefore beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 21, leave out from ("but") to end of subsection.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: My noble friend, in order to support his view that a return should be made once a year as to what securities are in the Issue Department, has to make reference to a very ancient Act of 1819. I would suggest that the Act of 1819 is to some extent obsolete. The intention of that Act was, I understand, to limit the borrowing powers of the Government and the Bank of England. We have departed far from the year 1819. One can think of a great number of cases where it would not be wise to make public these securities that are held in the Issue Department to cover the fiduciary note issue, but I think I will content myself with one observation, which will perhaps appeal to my noble friend, and that is that none of the Central Banks in any country, I believe, do publish separately the number,, nature and description of the securities which are held against fiduciary issues. I think it would be wise to allow the information to go to the Treasury and no further.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The noble Viscount says that the Central Banks abroad do not do this, but I ask

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him to compare their credit with ours. Ours is always much better than theirs because we are open in what we do.
VISCOUNT PEEL: But that particular kind of openness we do not practise.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Power of Bank of England to require persons to make returns of and to sell gold]:
VISCOUNT PEEL: There is a point I want to mention here which was raised by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh on the Second Reading. Unfortunately he is not able to be here to-day. His point was whether a penalty was necessary in case some of these bullion dealers would not sell to the Bank of England? He suggested that a penalty clause was required. I am advised it is not necessary because, first of all, these are very substantial people not likely to resist any request of this kind, and if any very extreme case arose in which it was resisted such refusal would be a misdemeanour under the Common Law.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12:
Penalty for defacing bank notes.
12. If any person prints, or stamps, or by any like means impresses, on any bank note any words, letters or figures, he shall, in respect of each offence, be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding one pound.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, after "person," to insert "writes." The noble Viscount said: The clause reads:
"If any person prints, or stamps, or by any like means impresses, on any bank note …."
It may be much more untidy and dirty to write in ink than to have a banker's stamp on it. I want to make the clause a little more watertight than the present words do. That is why I propose that the word "writes" should be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 32, after ("person") insert ("writes").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: I would suggest to my noble friend that he makes it a little
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too watertight by the Amendment. This clause is intended to prevent stamping or printing or otherwise impressing anything upon these notes. As the noble Lord knows, it is sometimes the practice to require a person to write his name on the back of a note, and I do not think the banks would welcome a prohibition of this kind.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: That being the case, then if he prints his name instead of writing it he incurs a £1 penalty and if he writes it he does not.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I do not think he does print it, he writes it.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Short title, interpretation and repeal.
(3) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires,—
The expression "bullion" includes any coin which is not current and legal tender in the United Kingdom.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the definition of bullion in subsection (3), after "any," to insert "gold." The noble Viscount said: The expression "bullion" includes any coin which is not current and legal tender in the United Kingdom. Under this clause we should have silver, nickel or even copper coin which is not legal tender. Therefore I think the word "gold" should be inserted before "coin." I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 13, after ("any") insert ("gold").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT PEEL: My noble friend in moving this Amendment did so, I thought, with a certain note of indignation in his voice. I am bound to say I have some sympathy with him because the same point occurred to me when I looked at the clause, but I consulted the legal advisers and they quite persuaded me that the insertion of the word "gold" is unnecessary. If my noble friend looks at it I think he will see that "the expression 'bullion' includes any gold coin" would seem to suggest that the word "bullion" can mean more than gold coin. If it includes gold obviously there is something else in it besides gold

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coin. That may tend to throw doubt on the user of the word "bullion" in other parts of the Bill.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If between now and the Report stage my noble friend will consider some Amendment to prevent silver coin and copper coin and nickel coin, which are not legal tender, being included, I should be very much obliged to him.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I am always ready to consider any suggestions of the noble Viscount, but I rather thought that the point I put to him was conclusive, that to insert the word "gold" would throw doubt on the meaning of the word "bullion." However, I will certainly think over what he says.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I think there is something in this Amendment. I do not ever feel satisfied when I am told that an Amendment is right but that it is not necessary. If it is right put it in, if it is wrong do not put it in, but do not say that in the opinion of legal advisers it is not necessary. That is generally a way of keeping out something which eventually turns out to be necessary.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I am always glad to hear any intervention of my noble friend, especially when, as in this case, he is a supporter of the Bill, but I think he has misunderstood me. I did not say the Amendment was not necessary. I said the Amendment, in fact, had an element of wrong in it because it might result in doubt about the meaning of the word "bullion" in another part of the Bill.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: There is only one Amendment to this Bill and that is in the Schedule. I think, therefore, that if there is no objection on the part of your Lordships I might put all the clauses of the Bill without naming them separately.
Clauses 1 to 25 agreed to.
First Schedule [Additional benefits]:
LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH moved to insert the following paragraph:—
"(5) Allowances in respect of dependants of insured persons in receipt of sickness or disablement."
The noble Lord said: In 1926 there was a Royal Commission on national health insurance and that Commission made a voluminous Report, containing certain suggestions which they desired to have put on the Statute Book. Among those suggestions was the provision of allowances to dependants of any insured persons in receipt of sickness or disablement benefits. They proposed that that should be made a statutory benefit as and when funds were available to meet the cost and that it should come in the order of priority they laid down. This Bill, in the First Schedule, sets out certain matters which are to be substituted for the Third Schedule of the principal Act and which are to be optional, that is, additional benefits. The proposed grant to dependants is, however, left out entirely. The maternity benefit is put in as an additional benefit, but not the grant to dependants. It has been said that approved societies have not asked for this, but I have been given a list (which I add up to 124) of different women's societies, of varying strength throughout the country, affiliated together, and they have either passed resolutions on the principle of this or have debated and approved it. So I propose an Amendment that this should come as the fifth additional benefit which an approved society would be allowed to use if and when they wanted to. The advantage would be that if they do so use it experience would be gained as to its working and in the future it might even possibly be made statutory.
The Royal Commission went at great length into this matter. They came to the conclusion that it ought to be the second principle to be put upon the Statute Book for additional allowances.

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They suggested that there should be given to the wife of a man who was sick and unable to provide for his family 2s. a week and 2s. for each child, or in the case of disablement 1s. They recommended that there should be given to a widower 2s. for each child in the case of sickness and 1s. in the case of disablement. They recommended that in the case of unmarried insured women no allowance should be paid in respect of dependent children because it would create such tremendous difficulties, but that the dependants for the purposes of the scheme should be the widowed mother of such persons. All grants to children were to be only for children up to fourteen years of age. These are not very expensive grants. There would be only certain cases in which they would be wanted, but I can imagine that in those cases in which they would be wanted they would be very badly wanted. The addition of these grants to the Schedule would not cost the country a penny. My Amendment is not one which at the present time would increase expenses, but it will give an opportunity to approved societies, if they so decide and if they have funds in hand—which, if trade improves, they may have in the future—to give these benefits, or a portion of them, to dependants. Therefore I think it is a reasonable Amendment. The matter is one which should not be lost sight of and an opportunity should be given to those who wish to grant these benefits to do so.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 11, at end insert the following subsection:—
("(5) Allowances in respect of dependants of insured persons in receipt of sickness or disablement").—(Lord Askwith.)
VISCOUNT GAGE: I must thank the noble Lord for giving the Ministry full particulars of his intention regarding this Amendment and the moderation with which he urged what undoubtedly would appear at first sight to be a reasonable case. My right hon. friend has examined it very carefully and regrets very much that he must resist it on the same grounds as he resisted a rather similar Amendment, moved in another place. It is perfectly true that allowances for dependants take a prominent place in the recommendations of the Royal Commission, but, together with
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the abolition of insurance committees, the partial pooling of surpluses of approved societies, and other matters, this recommendation had to be abandoned, in this case on the ground of cost and of the financial burden that it would impose upon the scheme. It may be observed that the Royal Commission did not recommend that the allowances to dependants should be administered as an additional benefit by the approved societies. They specially recommended that these allowances should be taken out of the list of additional benefits. There were several reasons for this. In the first place the principle was not popular with the approved societies and was never used, and in the second place it was generally agreed amongst people experienced in these matters that, if the principle is to be admitted at all, it should be done by way of a general provision applicable to all insured persons and not only to members of such approved societies as could afford it.
But a more important reason still is that not only the Ministry but the approved societies themselves consider that the surpluses should be devoted principally to benefits in the nature of treatment. These societies already have a very wide field over which they can apply their surpluses, the amount of money they have is limited, and they consider, as does the Ministry, that it is desirable that this money should be applied in making adequate provision for a few additional benefits for which there is the greatest need, rather than that it should be dissipated over a large list of additional benefits. Up to the present time, amongst all the additional benefits open to the societies, the dental and ophthalmic benefits have been regarded as most important, and my information is that, if this Amendment were passed and the approved societies decided to adopt it, there would be little or no money left for these particular benefits. That is the principal reason that has led my right hon. friend not to accept this Amendment.
I admit the reasons may appear to be a little too technical to carry the immediate persuasion and conviction with which I should like to meet so experienced a debater as my noble friend Lord Askwith, but I think that, from a common sense point of view, there is yet, a more significant argument still, and

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that is that the approved societies themselves have never asked for this extension. After all, additional benefits are administered, not by bureaucrats from Whitehall, but by representatives of 16,000,000 insured persons, grouped in over 7,000 societies and their branches, and it really seems only reasonable that, out of such an enormous mass of individuals, including many millions of women, there would be some who would be sufficiently strong-minded to make their representatives in the approved societies urge upon the Minister the case that the noble Lord has presented. Nevertheless it is a fact that the approved societies, when they were enabled to devote their surpluses to this purpose, never did so during the whole period from 1911 up to the present time, and further that during the preparation of this Bill, when the Minister was in the closest touch with the approved societies, no representations were made to him that the approved societies were in favour of this proposal.
If the noble Lord could convince the Minister that the approved societies hold the same views in these matters as the societies he has quoted, he might at any time be prepared to make some concession. Let me point out in conclusion that under the terms of paragraph 17 of the First Schedule, he is enabled to take these steps. The paragraph makes provision for—
"such other additional benefits, being of a character similar to that of any of those hereinbefore mentioned, as may be prescribed."
I hope that the noble Lord will not think it necessary to press the Amendment in view of the arguments that I have put forward.
LORD ASKWITH: I do not think that the noble Viscount has convinced me at all. He has merely pointed out that under a paragraph of the First Schedule something might be done to enable these benefits to be given. While the Bill has been before the House it has, of course, been impossible to obtain the opinion of 7,000 approved societies. I recognise that the noble Viscount has met me in the most courteous manner. Perhaps, in the circumstances, I might quote my noble friend Lord Banbury, and say that this is another instance of an Amendment
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which the noble Viscount agrees is right, but which he says is not necessary. I do not propose to press the Amendment.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I am not at all sure that I agree with this Amendment. As I understand it—I may be wrong—the Royal Commission recommended that something of this kind should be done when the money could be found. As I understand it, the money is going to be found by the approved societies. On the other hand the approved societies do not want to find the money. It has been pointed out by the noble Lord below the gangway that certain women's associations had asked for this. These women's associations would ask for anything. The next thing will be that every woman is to have £2 a week so long as she remains a woman. The result will be that we shall all be bankrupt. I am very glad that the Government are going to resist this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Schedule agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

PETROLEUM (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Desborough.)
EARL BUXTON: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed on behalf of those with whom I act, to express our recognition of the friendly attitude with which my noble friend and the Government have received the suggestions that we have made. We have not a complete loaf, but we have a very considerable portion of the various Amendments that we suggested, and I think he will himself recognise that these were all in accordance with the object that we had in view—namely, to get rid of these pumps, so far as we can, in all places where they destroy the beauty of the scenery and the amenities of the surroundings. If the noble Lord will allow me, I would also like to

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press upon him that the Government should do their very best to get these Amendments through the other House. I am sure that he can truthfully say that, in this House at all events, there is no difference of opinion at all, and that we hold that Clause 5, as it is now amended, makes a very important addition to the Bill, and helps to secure the object that we all had in view.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 5:
By-laws as to petroleum filling stations.
5.—(1) For the purpose of preserving for the enjoyment of the public the amenities of any rural scenery or place of beauty or historic interest or of any public park or pleasure promenade, or of any street or place which is of interest by reason of its picturesque character, the council of any county or borough may make by-laws—

(a) regulating the appearance of petroleum filling stations; or

(b) prohibiting the establishment of petroleum filling stations.

LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure that on behalf of the Government I can voice their appreciation of the sentiments expressed by my noble friend opposite, and for my own part I can assure him that I will do my best to get facilities for the Bill, so that it may be passed with all expedition in another place. I am sure we are all working with the same object in view—namely, the preservation of places of beauty and historic interest. I have one Amendment to move. In Committee doubts were expressed as to whether the word "rural" in Clause 5 covered not only "scenery"
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but "places of beauty or historic interest," and to make it clear that the word "rural" is not the governing word for all these matters, I beg to move the insertion of the words "of any" after the words "scenery or." The clause will then read:—
"For the purpose of preserving for the enjoyment of the public the amenities of any rural scenery or of any place of beauty or historic interest."
I think the insertion of those words will make the intention of your Lordships and of the Government perfectly clear.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 31, after ("scenery or") insert ("of any").—(Lord Desborough.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Lord for this great improvement in drafting. I know that the other evening, when this was being discussed, he expressed the opinion of the Government that the word "rural" applied only to scenery, and now we have the matter made quite clear. The question was raised by Lord Arnold, and I think that the noble Lord opposite has met my noble friend's objection very frankly and fully.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

COTTON INDUSTRY BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at a quarter past five o'clock.

CHESTERFIELD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
YSTRADFELLTE WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

PRIVATE BILL (CONSOLIDATION).
Message from the Commons that they have added a member to the Joint Committee as requested in their Lordships' Message of Monday last, and a Message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in the Chairman of Committee's Committee Room, on Wednesday next, at half-past eleven o'clock.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Regents Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase),
Rotherham Corporation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

DAGENHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.
ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON BILL.
Reported, without amendment.
STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL.
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

CHIRK DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1928.
Special Order in respect of part of the rural district of Chirk, in the county of Denbigh, and part of the rural district of Oswestry, in the County of Salop:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WILTON AND DISTRICT ELEC TRICITY ORDER, 1928.
Special Order in respect of the Borough of Wilton and parts of the parishes of Bemerton and South Newton, in the rural district of Wilton, in the County of Wilts:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMA TION (No. 5) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.