Sitting of 27 July 1928

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
COMPANIES BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS (SCOT LAND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
BRADFORD CORPORATION (TROL LEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.

NAVAL PRIZE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, this is a Money Bill with three operative clauses, and I imagine that your Lordships will not wish me to detain you very long. Its purpose is to wind up the Naval Prize Fund and to dissolve the Naval Prize Tribunal. The Tribunal was appointed in 1918, and consisted of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore, Sir Guy Fleetwood Wilson, and in succession three distinguished Admirals. The principal duties of the Tribunal have been to allot the proceeds of prize between droits of the Crown and droits of Admiralty, and also to allot claims and liabilities which were made by merchants and others against these

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two funds. Claims may continue to be made for an indefinite time, and there are still several large ones outstanding, but the Tribunal suggested in 1925 that the fund should be wound up and the Tribunal dissolved. Both the Admiralty and the Treasury felt, however, that there were still claims of such magnitude outstanding that it was very difficult to decide how much the State and how much the Prize Fund would have to pay, but since that time the situation has cleared very considerably and it has now been possible to come to what we believe is likely to be an accurate estimate of what the Prize Fund will have to meet.
Therefore, it is proposed under this Bill that the Prize Fund should transfer to the Treasury a sum of £126,500, and that the Treasury should undertake all claims and liabilities made against the Fund in future. Both Departments believe that this estimate is a perfectly fair one, both to the Prize Fund and to the taxpayer, and we have been assisted all through in making our estimate of what the State is likely to pay by the advice of the Procurator-General. I would like to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the work done by the Prize Tribunal during the last ten years and particularly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore, who presided over its proceedings, which in many cases have been difficult and complicated. I do not think I have anything further to say about the Bill, but if further information is desired I will do my best to provide it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 53.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 7, leave out ("seven") and insert ("nine").
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is to increase the number of Commissioners from seven to nine, which makes the Commission more representative. The discussion on this question in the Scottish Grand Committee revealed a general desire for the change among members of all Parties. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 2, line 30, leave out paragraph (a) and insert:
("(a) to the spirit of the intention of the founders as embodied either (i) in the original deed constituting the endowment where it is still the governing instrument, or (ii) in the scheme approved under the Act of 1882, or under any other Act, or in any Provisional Order affecting the endowment;").
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, the Amendment throws more stress on the spirit of the intentions of the founders. It is virtually a repetition of the ipsissima verba of the Mackenzie Committee's Report—the Report on which the Bill is based. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 4, page 3, line 22, leave out ("belonging to") and insert ("vested in").
Clause 11, page 7, line 27, leave out ("power of making schemes") and insert ("powers of the Commissioners")
line 31, after "directions") insert ("or powers")
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 11, page 7, line 33, leave out ("passing") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 11, page 7,line 35, leave out ("passing") and insert ("commencement")
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: Lords, the purpose of this change is to make it clear that the embargo on new buildings does not begin until January 1, 1929, instead of from the date of the passing of the Bill. This will prevent what might have been an awkward hitch in connection with the removal of George Watson's College from its present site, which has been acquired for the Royal Infirmary. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 41, page 16, line 9, leave out ("subject as hereinafter provided") and insert ("except in the case of a University endowment or of the Carnegie Trust")
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make explicit what the Bill intended to convey. After the powers of the Commissioners expire, the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council will exercise in regard to a University endowment or the Carnegie Trust powers similar to those conferred on the Department in relation to ordinary endowments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 41, page 16, line 42, at end insert:
("(e) When the Department after confirming a scheme have published the notice referred to in Section twenty-one of this Act, the governing body, if dissatisfied with the scheme, may at any time with in two months after the first publication of such notice present a petition to the Court of Session for
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amendment of the scheme or for the substitution of a new scheme, and on any such petition the Court may amend the scheme or may frame a new scheme, and for such purposes the Court shall have the like powers as are conferred by this Act on the Commissioners regarding schemes for the future government and management of endowments:
(f) When a petition with regard to any scheme has been presented to the Court of Session under the foregoing paragraph, the provisions of this Act with regard to laying schemes before Parliament shall not appply to any such scheme:
(g) Where the Court of Session have, in pursuance of the foregoing powers, amended a scheme or framed a new scheme, the scheme as so amended or the new scheme as so framed shall have the like effect as a scheme approved by His Majesty in Council.")
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, Clause 41 (1) of the Bill provides that after the expiry of the powers of the Commissioners the Department shall exercise these powers with certain modifications. The Amendment provides that, when a governing body is dissatisfied with a scheme confirmed by the Department, they may present a petition to the Court of Session for amendment of the scheme or for the substitution of a new scheme. The change has been made to meet difficulties raised by representatives of the Endowments Governors. It is understood to have the approval of all concerned. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 41, page 17, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert as a new subsection:
("(2) After the expiry of the powers of the Commissioners the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council shall have, in regard to a University endowment or the Carnegie Trust the like powers as are conferred by the foregoing subsection on the Department, and the said subsection in its application to any such endowment or to the Carnegie Trust shall have effect with the substitution of the said Scottish Universities Committee for the Department, provided that paragraphs (c), (f) and (g) shall not apply.")
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, this Amendment is to be taken in conjunction with that at page 16, line 9. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 42, page 17, line 14, after ("burgess") insert ("or guildry").
line 15, leave out ("corporate").
line 16, after ("society") insert ("nor funds bequeathed or given to any such incorporation or society for the benefit solely of members or widows or families of members of such incorporation or society").
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, these Amendments are designed to give additional security to certain bodies, whose funds are really private funds. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 5:
Agricultural Charges on farming stocks and assets.
(3) The property affected by a fixed charge shall be such property forming part of the farming stock and other agricultural assets belonging to the farmer at the date of the charge as may be specified in the charge, but may include—

(a) in the case of live stock, the progeny thereof; and

(b) in the case of agricultural plant, any plant which may whilst the charge is in force be substituted for the plant specified in the charge.

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF STRADBROKE)THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF STRADBROKE) moved in paragraph (a) of subsection (3) to leave out the second "the" and insert "any" and after "thereof" insert 'which may be born
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after the date of the charge". The noble Earl said: These are purely drafting Amendments, to make the charge quite clear.
Amendments moved—
Clause 5, page 5, line 36, leave out the second ("the") and insert ("any") and after ("thereof") insert ("which may be born after the date of the charge").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendments, agreed to.

EASTER BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
REORGANISATION OF OFFICES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (GODALMING EXTENSION) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Third Report from the Select Committee made, and to be printed.
House adjourned, except for judicial business, at a quarter past eleven o'clock.