Sitting of 15 November 1927

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  RUSSIA.

    BRITISH TRADE.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade the volume of our trade with Russia since the termination of the trade agreement, and the corresponding figures for the same period last year?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): Figures for June, 1926, are not available, but my hon. Friend will find a comparison of our trade with Russia during the three months July to September for 1926 and 1927 in the reply which I gave the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) on 8th November, a copy of which I am sending him.

    GOVERNMENT PURCHASES.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Russian Soviet Government has purchased 50,000 tons of high-grade Chilean nitrate; and whether he can state the name, or names, of the company, or companies, supplying that commodity to the Russian Government?
    Captain DOUGLAS HACKING (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): For the answer to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon Member to the reply given on the 8th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir W Davison) by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. As regards the second part of the question, I am informed that the principal firms concerned are Messrs. Guggenheim
    796
    Brothers of New York and the Lautaro Nitrate Company.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Has the hon. and gallant Member yet ascertained whether these purchasers are being financed, as it is alleged, in Germany?
    Captain HACKING: As to that, I have no knowledge.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is the second company mentioned a British company or an American company?
    Captain HACKING: I have said that Messrs. Guggenheim are a United States firm. The Lautaro Nitrate Company are controlled by Messrs. Barburizza, Luckinovic and Company, who are a Czechoslovak firm.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Russian Soviet Government has purchased recently large quantities of leather and tanning material, lead, copper and tungsten; and the countries in which these supplies were bought and, if possible, the firms which supplied them?
    Captain HACKING: The answer to the first part of the question is contained in the reply given on the 8th November by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Fareham Division (Sir J. Davidson). As regards the second part, I regret that the desired information is not available.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the hon. and gallant Member endeavour to obtain the information? Since he has been able to obtain information as to the quantities bought, would he not be equally able to trace, not only the quantity, but the place from which they were taken?
    Captain HACKING: It is not quite so easy to obtain this information, but possibly the hon. Member himself is in touch with the Russian Government, and he may be able to get it.
    Mr. MACLEAN: On a point of Order. I resent entirely that suggestion. When Questions are put down, I take it that every hon. Member puts them down with the object of gaining information and not with the object of being insulted.
    Captain HACKING: I did not intend to insult the hon. Member. All that I said was that we could not get the information ourselves.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Gould not you say that without throwing out an insult?

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.

    IRON AND STEEL TRADES.
    Sir BERKELEY SHEFFIELDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the continued depression in the iron and eteel trade; if he has received any further representations from the industry; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?
    Sir ALEXANDER SPROTasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will reconsider the question of applying safeguarding to the iron and steel trades, in view of the depressed condition of those trades and the large number of unemployed in the districts affected by that depression?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I would refer my hon. Friends to the answer given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Goodman Roberts) on 10th November, a copy of which I am sending them.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the fact that some form of protection must be given if these industries are to continue at all?
    Mr. HANNON: Is it not a fact that the condition of these industries is growing worse from day to day, and will the Government take active steps to deal with it?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Both those questions were put to the Prime Minister and answered by him.
    Colonel GRETTON: Has the Board of Trade Committee reported on the iron and steel industry, and, if so, will their Report be published?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. There never has been a Board of Trade Committee. As the Prime Minister announced to the House, the Committee of Civil Research investigated the whole
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    position of the iron and steel industry, and it would be contrary to precedent to publish the Report.
    Sir F. HALL: Are the Government prepared to allow this industry to go from bad to worse, because they will not bring in some measure of protection?
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to a statement in a Sunday newspaper that the Government have received a recommendation from a committee of experts and have undertaken to consider the question?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am afraid that I have not seen the Sunday paper to which the hon. Member refers.

    ASTRAKAN GLOVES.
    Mr. GREENEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether gloves with astrakhan, a fabric of woven material consisting of cotton and wool or silk, hacks and leather palms are admitted into this country free of duty as being neither wholly leather nor wholly fabric, but consisting of both; and, if so, will he take steps to have them made dutiable as are leather gloves and fabric gloves?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It was made clear during the inquiry into the applications for duties on leather gloves and fabric gloves, that "astrakhan" gloves are not regarded in the trade as either leather or fabric gloves, and no attempt was made by the applicants to establish a case in respect of them. They were accordingly specifically excluded from the scope of the duty.
    Mr. GREENE: Is it still open to the trade to make application for these gloves to be safeguarded.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It is open to any trade to proceed in accordance with the procedure.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    MERCANTILE MARINE.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any figures showing the present employment of foreigners in the British mercantile marine; and whether these figures show any decrease in the number of foreigners so employed?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Southampton a copy of which I am sending him. It will be seen from that answer that the percentage of foreigners in the British mercantile marine has remained at about the same level—from 5 per cent, to 6 per cent.—during the past few years.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade the present figures of unemployment amongst British seamen, officers and men, respectively, in all branches of the mercantile marine?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have been asked to reply. At 24th October, 1927, the number of men insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts classified as belonging to the shipping service (including the staffs of shipping companies) and recorded as unemployed was 20,837. This figure includes officers so far as they are insured; separate figures for officers are not available.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the answer which I have just received, that 21,000 seamen are unemployed, whether he will take some steps further to reduce the number of foreigners employed, and will he consider doing something in the matter with the Shipping Conference?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have often explained to the House that if any active steps are to be taken by the Ministry of Labour and my own Department, they will be to keep the number of foreigners to the minimum.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask what those active steps are, because the last time that I raised this matter the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade said that he had no powers.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: He has no powers actually to prohibit other than those conferred by the Merchant Shipping Act. Obviously, we can only exercise our statutory powers so far as the Statute goes. On the other hand, we can exercise very definite powers of repatriating aliens who are taken on ships at
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    other ports and sent here, and those powers are being most stringently exercised.
    Mr. HAYES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the response of the shipowners to the appeal of the Board of Trade that where British seamen are unemployed they should be employed instead of Lascar's and Arab seamen?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question should be put down.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BRITISH CINEMATOGRAPH INDUSTRY.
    Sir JOHN POWERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can furnish any information as to the increase in the production of British cinematograph films?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: According to the trade information at my disposal the number of British feature films made in 1925 was 34, and in 1926 23, while in the present year apparently about 60 such films will be completed. On the 10th November, in addition to films already trade shown, there were 19 films completed and awaiting trade show, and 13 in course of production, while 44 others were scheduled for production. All the above are "long films," as defined in the Cinematograph Films Bill. I have not complete information as to the total number of short films.
    Colonel DAY: May I ask whether the officers of the right hon. Gentleman's Department have reported as to the success, or otherwise, of any of these films that have been produced?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. The officers of my Department have not reported. As I think the hon. Member is aware, the exhibitors themselves report upon the comparative efficiency of the films, trade shown, and their reports to their own trade show that in the aggregate the merit of British films is considerably higher in the aggregate than the average American and foreign films.
    Colonel DAY: Is it not a fact and does not the right hon. Gentleman know that several British films that have been produced lately have been banned in our Colonies?
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Does not the 300 per cent, increase in British films show that the British Films Bill is already doing good?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes, certainly.

    IMPORTED CARPETS.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade the value of carpets imported into this country during the first 10 months of this year and last year, respectively, showing separately woollen carpets, jute, carpets, and carpets of mixed materials?

    Description.

    January to October, 1927.

    January to October, 1926

    Carpets, Carpeting, and Rugs of Wool (including Carpets and Rugs on a Wool or Jute basis):

    £

    £

    Total Imports

    2,728,500

    2,071,200

    Exports of Imported Merchandise

    1,330,900

    899,200

    Retained Imports

    1,391,600

    1,172,000

    Jute Carpets and Rugs:

    Total Imports

    268,800

    222,700

    Exports of Imported Merchandise

    4,300

    4,900

    Retained Imports

    264,500

    217,800

    PORTUGUESE PORTS (FLAG DISCRIMINATION).
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made in the negotiations with the Portuguese Government over their flag discrimination decree?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I understand that the Commission appointed by the Portuguese Government to examine the question of shipping charges has made its report, and that it is understood that a new decree may be issued by the Portuguese Government shortly. The decree, when issued, will be examined with a view to seeing how far it meets the joint representations which have been made to the Portuguese Government.
    Lieut.-Colonel LAMBERT WARD: In the event of the reply not being satisfactory, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of denouncing the various trading advantages which the Portuguese enjoy in this country?
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is able
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The answer has been prepared in tabular form; and, with my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the statistics:
    The following table shows the values of the imports, re-exports and imports retained in the United Kingdom of carpets and rugs of wool and of jute during the periods January to October, 1926 and 1927:
    to obtain information now as to what the effect of the decree is going to be?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I cannot obtain information as to what is in gestation in the mind of a foreign Government. As soon as the decree is published, I shall have notice of it.
    Mr. LUMLEY: Has the right hon. Gentleman any indication as to what the text of the decree will be?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Our Ambassador will have the earliest possible information.

    AUSTRALIAN SULTANAS AND CURRANTS (PRICES).
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the average wholesale price, c.i.f. London, of Australian sultanas and currants, respectively, for each of the years 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926 and 1927?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The answer contains a table of figures. The hon. Member will, perhaps, accordingly agree to my circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:
    Sultanas are included with raisins in the Import Returns. The average declared values (c.i.f.) of raisins and currants imported into the United Kingdom in the periods specified, and registered as consigned from Australia, were as follow:

    Period.

    Average value per cwt.

    Raisins.

    Currants.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    1923

    75

    0

    62

    0

    1924

    56

    0

    54

    0

    1925

    58

    0

    46

    0

    1926

    68

    0

    45

    0

    1927(Jan.-Oct.)

    63

    0

    42

    0

    FLOUR CONSUMPTION.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade the consumption of flour per head of the population in Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the years 1924, 1925 and 1926, respectively?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Particulars of the production of flour in this country are not furnished annually to any Government Department. It would, however, appear from the results of the latest census of production, combined with our import and export records, that about 4,500,000 tons of wheat flour were available in Great Britain in 1924, or approximately 230 lbs. per head of the population.

    MILK CONSUMPTION.
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the President of the Board of Trade the consumption of milk per head of the population in Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the years 1924, 1925, and 1926, respectively?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): I have been asked to reply. Until the results are available of the last census of agricultural production in Scotland and Northern Ireland, it is only possible to make very approximate estimates of the consumption of milk in the United Kingdom. It has been calculated, however, that the per head con-
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    sumption of liquid milk in the United Kingdom during each of the years specified in the question was about 20 gallons. During the same periods the amount of tinned milk consumed was equivalent to rather over 2 gallons of liquid milk per head.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the Report, 105, of the Medical Research council, as to the advantages of an increased supply of milk being given to growing boys, and that an increased supply would raise the average weight by 3 lbs.?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is rather a matter for the Minister of Health.

    MARGARINE (IMPORT DUTY, IRISH FREE STATE).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Government of the Irish Free State has just imposed without notice a duty of 3d. per lb. upon margarine manufactured in Great Britain and imported into the Irish Free State; and whether it is the intention of the Government to impose a tariff on butter and other Irish dairy products exported from the Irish Free State into this country until such time as the tariff on British margarine is removed?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply. I understand that a duty on margarine of 3d. per lb. was imposed in the Free State by a resolution of the Dail on 22nd October last, which took effect at once. An application for the imposition of a duty on this commodity had, however, been made by certain Irish firms in 1926, and was notified in February last in the "Dublin Gazette" and also in the "Board of Trade Journal," so that the interests affected must for some time have been aware of the possibility of its being imposed. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the mere suggestion on our part of putting a duty on Irish butter would secure the immediate withdrawal of this duty and prevent unemployment among our British nationals?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Free State has its own Parliament.
    Sir W. DAVISON: May I ask whether we have not power to put a duty on butter coming from the Irish Free State, which would secure the withdrawal of this duty, which causes unemployment among our people?

  TRANSPORT.

    ROADSIDE PETROL PUMPS.
    Sir J. POWERasked the President of the Board of Trade if roadside petrol pumps are now periodically tested for accuracy under the Regulations made by his Department?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Regulations under the Weights and Measures (Amendment) Act, 1926, have not yet been made, but I expect shortly to be in a position to publish a draft. Pending the final settlement of these Regulations in consultation with local authorities and others interested, patterns of petrol measuring instruments have been sanctioned by the Board of Trade, and many local authorities are testing roadside petrol pumps by arrangement with the owners and makers.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: In view of the campaign in the Press as to the origin of certain petrol, will the light hon. Gentleman make it possible to include in these Regulations some method of discovering from which particular country the petrol comes?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am afraid that it would not be possible for any form of petrol pump yet designed to register the origin of the petrol which it exudes.
    Mr. HARDIE: Is it not a fact well known to those who have motor cars that R.O.P. is being sold as an English product?

    MOTORISTS (COMPULSORY INSURANCE).
    Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Transport if and when it is proposed to introduce legislation compelling all owners of motor-cars or petrol-propelled vehicles to insure against risks caused by the drivers of the same to other persons or property?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): A scheme of compulsory insurance applicable to motor vehicles generally would involve great difficulties, but proposals with regard to insurance by the owners of motor omnibuses and chars-a-banc are contained in the Draft Road Traffic Bill which I caused to be published and circulated some time ago.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is still living in hopes that that Bill will become law in the present Parliament?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Yes, hope still remains.
    Colonel DAY: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to a case last week where a certain amount of money supposed to have been paid to a person who was injured was claimed by the liquidator because the insured person went into bankruptcy?
    Colonel ASHLEY: No; my attention has not been drawn to it, but if the, hon. and gallant Gentleman will send me particulars I will be glad to go into it.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: In view of the fact that an increasing number of people are suffering loss and damage caused by accidents, from motor cycles particularly, in cases where the motor driver has not been insured, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider the whole matter again to see whether some scheme of compulsory insurance could not be carried out? Most of these people are extremely poor and suffer very much.
    Colonel ASHLEY: I entirely agree with the principle of the thing, but to carry out a general scheme of insurance would involve very great difficulties. I do not believe it will be possible to come to an agreement with the insurance companies.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been brought up two or three times, that several schemes have been put forward which, to the ordinary person, are not impracticable, and will he not give it consideration?
    Colonel ASHLEY: But a Government Department is not an ordinary person. The conclusion we have come to so far is that it is not possible.

    NEW ARTERIAL ROADS.
    Sir J. POWERasked the Minister of Transport what steps are being taken to prevent, in future, delays to the opening of new roads similar to those which retarded the opening of the Kingston by-pass road?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The new arterial roads round London were put in hand as a means of affording immediate employment where it could be offered and without in all cases full opportunity of conducting preliminary negotiations, and it is not surprising that some delays have occurred. As my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, special difficulties arose in connection with the Kingston by-pass owing to the presence of an unusual number of large engineering structures, such as bridges.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say who was responsible for the delay?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The circumstances of the case. The Government of the day desired immediate employment to be given to the unemployed in London and surrounding districts, and the work had to be put into operation at once, and, therefore, there was not time for the usual preliminary investigation.

    TRAFFIC CONGESTION, FINSBURY PARK.
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Minister of Transport whether the London Traffic Advisory Committee has given special consideration to the increased traffic congestion at Finsbury Park during the periods of greyhound racing; and whether any action has been taken or is proposed?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Close observation has been kept upon the traffic conditions which have arisen in consequence of the inauguration of greyhound racing at Harringay, and additional tramway facilities have been provided at Finsbury Park to deal with the increased traffic. The Advisory Committee are kept fully informed of the position.
    Mr. MORRISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the situation, already difficult, has been made much worse because of the greyhound racing in the district, and cannot he urge the Traffic Advisory Committee to do something more than they have done already?
    Colonel ASHLEY: We can do nothing. I cannot stop the races. Additional tramway facilities have been afforded.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    GARRISON, ADEN.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Secretary of State for War, seeing that the War Office assumed direct authority for the administration of the military forces forming the garrison of Aden from 1st October, 1927, whether any part of the cost of the troops stationed at Aden will be paid by the Government of India?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): As explained by my Noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for India in his reply on 7th March last to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Colonel Howard-Bury), the Government of India will from 1st April, 1927, contribute a fixed sum of £250,000 a year for three years towards the military and political expenditure in respect of Aden, and thenceforward one-third of the expenditude, subject to a maximum of £150,000 a year.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: May I ask whether an increased expenditure will fall upon this country owing to the transfer?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Not because of the transfer.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURY: But there is an increased expenditure?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I will not say that. I am not sure.

    STORES (SHIPMENT).
    Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOKasked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the shipping of military stores to Malta and Alexandria in a foreign-owned ship; and whether he will consider the desirability of instructing that all military stores for foreign stations shall be shipped in British ships manned by British sailors?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply, as the shipment—which included naval, War Office and Air Ministry stores—was made by my Department. The general rule, to which this case is no exception, is that the stores

    809
    of this character shall be shipped only in vessels under the British flag. The ship in question is registered as a British ship and sails under the British flag. The officers are all British, and out of a crew of 42 only five are foreigners. My hon. and gallant Friend may have in mind that whilst the company owning the ship is a registered British company, most of the shares are foreign-owned. He will appreciate, however, that to exclude from open competitive tender all companies which have some foreign interest would not only be difficult to work, but would narrow our field and lead to increased cost.

    MASTER GENERAL OF THE ORDNANCE (APPOINTMENT).
    Sir A. HOLBROOKasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that under the Esher scheme it was the turn of a Royal Engineer officer to fill the appointment of Master General of the Ordnance; and the reason for the appointment of another Royal Artillery officer?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: No, Sir. The appointment of the Master General of the Ordnance has always been held by a Royal Artillery officer, but developments in mechanisation may render the appointment of a Royal Engineer officer appropriate at some future time.
    Sir A. HOLBROOK: Was it not a recommendation of the Esher scheme that this appointment should be given alternately to the Royal Engineers and the Royal Artillery?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: That has never been accepted or acted upon.

    PERSONNEL AND WAR OFFICE STAFF.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Secretary of State for War the numbers employed at the War Office in 1914 and the numbers employed at the present time, and the personnel of the Army at both dates?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 26th July last to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter).

    SERVICE PENSIONS.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Secretary of State for War whether his Department is considering the possibility of increasing the normal period of service of 21 years required of soldiers for pension?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is not intended to increase the normal period of service of 21 years required for soldiers' pensions.

    MAJOR BEAUMONT-NESBITT.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that Major Beaumont-Nesbitt, an officer on the Imperial General Staff, has been sent to Lithuania to conduct an inspection of the Lithuanian army, he will say what was the object of this inspection; whether this officer has been on similar missions to other countries; and, if so, which countries?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: No, Sir; Major Beaumont-Nesbitt was not sent to inspect the Lithuanian army, nor has he been on a mission of this nature to any other country. He was paying an official visit to the British Military Attaché in the Baltic States and Finland.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Why is it part of his duties to inspect the units of the Lithuanian army?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am not aware that he did inspect the units of the Lithuanian army.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Is this not the answer; that this little Republic is an admirer of this country, and, when a British officer is there, they cannot do better than get him to inspect their army?

    CHINA (BRITISH TROOPS).
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether all the reservists called up for service in China will be returned to Britain in time to eat their Christmas dinner with their families; and, if not, what reservists will remain in the China defence force after Christmas, 1927?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: All Section A reservists, other than those

    811
    detained by sickness or other unforeseen causes, will have left China before Christmas, but I am not sure whether those sailing in the last ship will reach their homes by Christmas.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the cost of one of the most fundamental things for enjoying Christmas and the New Year is just half the price in Shanghai compared with the price in Great Britain?
    Mr. TREVELYANasked the Secretary of State for War how many British troops there have been in China belonging to the Shanghai defence force in each month from July to the present date;

    Date.

    Number of Infantry Units stationed at—

    Shanghai.

    Hong Kong.

    Tientsin.

    Wei-Hai-Wei.

    1st July

    …

    …

    …

    10

    5*

    1

    1

    1st August

    …

    …

    …

    8

    5*

    1

    1

    1st September

    …

    …

    …

    8

    5*

    1

    1

    1st October

    …

    …

    …

    6‡

    4†

    1

    1

    1st November

    …

    …

    …

    6¾‡

    3†

    1

    1 Company

    1. The above table does not include—

    (i) One Royal Marine Battalion which was stationed at Shanghai from February to September, when it was reduced in strength by approximately half.

    (ii) The normal infantry garrison in China which consists of two battalions at Hong Hong and one battalion at Tientsin.

    2. * Includes four battalions of the 15th Brigade, and

    † Includes three battalions of the 15th Brigade.

    ‡ Includes one battalion of the 15th Brigade.

    ARMY OF OCCUPATION.
    Viscount SANDONasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that Germany pays for the expenses of the Rhine Army and that our contingent is included in the available strength for our general needs, the diminution of our establishment there will result in any saving or increase in expenditure to the Treasury?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): The reduction in the numbers of the Allied Armies of Occupation on the Rhine will result in a decrease of the amount allocated out of the Dawes annuities to costs of the Allied Armies of Occupation as a whole, and an equivalent increase in the amount available for distribution as reparations. It is prob-
    812
    what units have been withdrawn recently; and what units remain in China?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I have had a table prepared which, with the right hon. Gentleman's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. TREVELYAN: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give a general figure with regard to these troops?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: They are highly complicated figures with a lot of notes. If I give the figures without the notes, they would only be misleading.
    Following is the table:
    able that the diminution in receipts on account of the British Army of Occupation will be approximately balanced by the increase in the British share of reparation receipts, but the exact figures are not yet known.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEasked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to the case of William Willoughby Watkins, ex-private, No. 8,655, King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, who was discharged on 6th March, 1919, after 24 years and four months colour service, with an exemplary character, with a service pension of 28½d. a day; whether he is aware that, in the opinion of four doctors, the

    813
    cerebal hæmorrhage from which Mr. Watkins is suffering is due to hardships in the Soudan Campaign and service in France in 1914 to 1919; and if it is possible to grant an increased pension?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Commodore Douglas King): Mr. Watkins is in receipt of the maximum pension to which his service entitles him. I regret therefore that no increase is admissible. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions is dealing in a later answer with Mr. Watkins' claim to a disability pension.

  SCOTLAND.

    EDUCATIONAL TRUSTS.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now prepared to give effect to the undertaking given on behalf of the Government to set up an executive Commission to inquire into the conditions of educational trusts in Scotland; and, if so, when it will be set up, who will be its personnel, and what will be its powers?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): Legislation will be required in order to give effect to the undertaking, and the terms of a draft Bill are at present under consideration.

    EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1883.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the difficulties created for education authorities by a Court decision in Dumbartonshire on Section 11, Sub-section (b), of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1883; if he has had representations from the education authorities regarding it, and that the authorities have unanimously agreed on a proposed Amendment to the foregoing Section of the 1883 Act; and, if agreement can be got on the proposed Amendment, will facilities be granted for its passage into law this Session?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second and third parts, I understand that the Association of Education Authorities have decided to send a reasoned statement on the subject to the Department. Their
    814
    representation, however, has not yet been received.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: May I ask for an answer to the last part of my question—whether, if agreement can be got on the proposed Amendment, facilities will be given for its passage into law this Session?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir. I think it is well understood that there is no possibility of fresh legislation this Session.

    HOUSING SCHEMES.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities have been granted authority to proceed with housing schemes, but have not done so, giving the names of the respective authorities and their reasons for not proceeding with the schemes so sanctioned?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am informed that in Scotland 19 local authorities who have been granted authority to proceed with State-assisted housing schemes have not done so. As the details of the reasons for not proceeding in these cases are somewhat lengthy, I propose to communicate them to the hon. Member in a statement.
    Captain STREATFEILD: Is the right hon. Gentleman entirely satisfied with the progress made in rural housing in Scotland?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Not entirely, but I think material progress is being made.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if his Department have yet sanctioned the new housing scheme by the Glasgow Corporation known as the Bellahouston scheme; if so, when such sanction was given, and if the scheme has yet been proceeded with; and, if not, when it is proposed to make a start?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am informed that on the 16th August last the Scottish Board of Health gave tentative approval to the tenders for the proposed houses, but that their erection is delayed owing to a question having arisen between the corporation and the adjoining feuars as to the right of the latter under their titles to require the houses to be built in stone instead of in brick and rough-

    815
    cast as proposed. Negotiations are still proceeding between the parties.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: In view of the fact that the holding up of this scheme is causing unemployment to a fair number of men, can the right hon. Gentleman not take steps to have the negotiations brought to an early conclusion?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I understand that every effort is being made by my Department to see that there is no delay.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Seeing that there has already been a delay of several months, and that numbers of men are out of work and costing the country money, can the right hon. Gentleman not take greater steps than he has already taken to bring these negotiations to a conclusion?

    PARISH RELIEF.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of men and women in receipt of out-door relief at the end of September, 1927, in the parishes of Govan and Glasgow, respectively, who had been refused unemployment benefit?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I regret that the information asked for could not be completely obtained without an elaborate inquiry. As, however, the scale of parish relief for able-bodied unemployed persons in the two parishes named is the same as that on which unemployment benefit is paid, it may be inferred that all such persons in receipt of relief have either been refused or are not entitled to unemployment benefit. At the 15th September, 1927, there were in the parish of Govan, 6,266 men and 603 women, and in the parish of Glasgow, 9,958 men and 779 women in receipt of relief as able-bodied unemployed persons.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the total amount spent weekly by the Govan parish council at present on able-bodied relief, and the amount spent in the same week in 1926, 1925 and 1924, respectively?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The amount spent on able-bodied relief by the Govan parish council during the week ended the 15th October, 1927, was £5,977. The figures for the corresponding weeks in 1926, 1925 and
    816
    1924 were £5,978 (including £99 expended on relief to destitute dependants of miners), £3,171 and £1,822, respectively.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman state any reason for the increase, in view of the fact that the Govan parish council are being compelled to cut down the payments? In spite of this, the amount is increasing each year. Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason for it?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir, not in answer to a Question.
    Mr. SULLIVANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what payments were made to able-bodied men and women by the parish councils of Scotland for the years 1924, 1925 and 1926?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The total payments made by parish councils in Scotland to destitute able-bodied unemployed during each of the years ended the 15th May in 1924, 1925 and 1926, were £1,153,268, £652,581, and £981,498 respectively. In addition, £12,927 was paid to the destitute dependants of coal miners and shale workers during the year ended the 15th May, 1926.

    SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION, GLASGOW.
    Mr. BUCHANANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is yet in a position to make any statement as to the agreement between the Scottish Education Department and the Glasgow authority with regard to the problem of new schools and the rebuilding of some?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: An extensive redistribution of population is at present taking place in Glasgow as the result of new housing schemes, the effect of which cannot yet be estimated with certainty, and the education authority have consequently been unable to submit a programme sufficiently definite to form the basis of any agreement. The Department must therefore be satisfied from year to year that every reasonable endeavour is being made to cope with the situation as it may develop. The position to-day is that four new schools or extensions of schools have recently been completed and two are under construction, while the plans for eight others have been provisionally approved or are in active preparation, and the sites for 14 more have either been acquired or are now under consideration.

    817
    These figures refer to non-transferred schools only. The question of the transferred schools will be taken up by the authority as soon as the title-deeds are in their hands.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: What has been done in the city of Glasgow to replace the schools which have been condemned as insanitary, besides making arrangements for the increasing population in the outside area?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: If the hon. Member wishes me to specify any particular schools, he had better put down another Question.

    INSURED PERSONS, GLASGOW (MEDICINE).
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can supply the average cost per person per form for medicine, etc., for insured persons in Glasgow?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The average cost per prescription in Glasgow during August last, the latest months for which figures are available, was 13.41d.

    MILITIA FAMILY FUND, PERTHSHIRE.
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if his attention has been drawn to the position of the Militia Family Fund in Perthshire; if he is aware that a sum of over £1,568 was raised by public assessment in the year 1824 for the relief of the widows and orphans of Perthshire militiamen; that this money was diverted to other purposes than that for which it was raised; whether any proposals had been made to secure his assent to a transference of the remaining balance in the fund for county council purposes and the relief of rates; and what steps, if any, he can take to ensure proper administration of the fund?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: My attention has been called to this matter in connection with a Provisional Order promoted by the County Council of Perthshire for the purpose of transferring the county buildings to the county council. A local assessment was levied in the early part of last century for the payment of allowances to the wives and families of serving militiamen, and according to my information the sum of £1,568 mentioned in the question represented moneys raised by such
    818
    assessment in Perthshire in excess of the requirements. By directions given in 1817 by the Commissioners for Highways, Bridges and Ferries, this fund was made available for the purposes of the county buildings which were erected about that time. This fund is now represented by £1,500 4 per cent. railway debenture stock. It is proposed that this fund should be applicable subject to any debts and liabilities affecting it for the maintenance, repair or improvement of the county buildings or for the construction or maintenance of new or additional buildings for the transaction of the business of the county council. Provision to this effect will be embodied in the Provisional Order which will be submitted to Parliament in due course.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of this fund, which was raised by assessment for the dependants of militiamen, has been used for over a century for the maintenance of the county hunt ball room?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I cannot without notice.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention not been officially drawn to these matters?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Yea, Sir; I have had the question drawn to my attention.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a considerable proportion of this fund, which was raised for soldiers' dependants, has been used for the maintenance of the county hunt ball room for a century?
    Mr. HARDIE: Has the Secretary of State for Scotland been at this ball?

    OSCAR SLATER.
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether in releasing Oscar Slater, he proposes to set up an inquiry into the evidence produced at the trial?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Had the conviction in this case taken place after 31st October, 1926, I should have had power to remit questions regarding it to the Court of Criminal Appeal under the provisions of Section 16 of the Criminal Appeal (Scotland) Act, 1926. If I can obtain from Parliament the legislation necessary to extend the Act so as to

    819
    enable me to refer this case under the provisions mentioned, I am prepared to take that course. A single Clause Bill would be all that would be necessary, but at this stage of the Session, I could not hope to get it unless the House is prepared to pass the Measure by general consent and without discussion.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: May I ask, arising out of that question, whether in view of the somewhat unfortunate position in which this case has been left, a very special attempt might not be made through the usual channels to arrange for the passing of a Bill? I ask that question specially.
    Mr. HARDIE: On a point of Order. This question deals with the relation between the Secretary of State for Scotland and a released prisoner. Last week I put down a question in relation to a prisoner now in Glasgow who was put in prison because he refused to go to Barr-hill court house, but that question was twice refused at the Table. Seeing this question on the Paper, I should like to know upon what grounds my question was refused.
    Mr. SPEAKER: So far as I recollect, the question submitted by the hon. Member was not of the same nature as this question; but I will look at it again.
    Sir J. GILMOUR: In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, so far as the Government are concerned they welcome the suggestion he has made.
    Mr. NAYLOR: Is it intended to pay Slater any compensation for wrongful imprisonment?

    LANDLORD AND TENANT BILL.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he intends to introduce legislation for Scotland on the lines of the present Landlord and Tenant Bill?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am keeping this matter in view, but I am not in a position to make a definite statement on the subject.
    Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: Has the right hon. Gentleman himself not received representations, such as we have received, asking that this Bill should be applied to Scotland?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have received a certain number of representations, but the Bill for England is not yet through this House?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make any statement before the House adjourns at the end of this Session, as to the Government's intentions in regard to Scotland in this matter?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I suggest that a question might be put down at a later stage in the Session.

    UNEMPLOYED TEACHERS.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of men and women teachers, respectively, unemployed at present in Scotland; and the number of graduates, non-graduates, and graduates with the Chapter V qualification who are unemployed?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The reply is in the negative. The Department have no means of estimating the number of qualified teachers in Scotland who are unemployed and who desire employment.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman's Department not able to make some estimate?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I should hesitate to make an estimate which might not be accurate.

    WEIR HOUSES.
    Viscountess ASTORasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much money has been paid by the Exchequer, directly or through the Second Scottish National Housing Company, to the Cardonald Housing Company for Weir cottages and bungalows; how many Weir houses have been contracted for up to date; how many are still uncompleted; and on what date after completion will the cost of repairs and maintenance fall upon public funds?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am informed that in respect of the houses being provided by the Second Scottish National Housing Company (Housing Trust) Limited, no money has been paid by the Exchequer direct to the contractors, and that the amount paid to the latter through the Housing Company as at the 31st ultimo was £444,979 for all types of houses. At this stage it is not possible to state

    821
    the amount so paid for cottages and bungalows alone. The number of Weir houses contracted for to date by the Housing Company is 1,542, and at the 31st ultimo the number of these uncompleted was 514. The contractors' period of maintenance runs for 12 months from the completion of the houses, and at the expiry of that period the cost of repairs and maintenance will be met out of rents.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these houses that have been completed are occupied?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Not without notice.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if it is not a fact that the maintenance is heavier in this class of house than in ordinary houses?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I do not think there is any justification for that statement.
    Mr. HARDIE: Can the right hon. Gentleman not give, for the last two wind storms in Scotland, the relation of the repairs necessary to this class of house to those necessary to what are called the ordinary brick-built house?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question should be put down on the Paper.
    Mr. HARDIE: I will put it down.

    ELECTRIC LIGHT (CUMNOCK, AYRSHIRE).
    Mr. JAMES BROWNasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that, while full preparations have been made for many months past for the installation of electric light in the burgh of Cumnock, Ayrshire, the installation has not yet taken place; and whether he will take steps to get the electric light installed at once?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The question of the supply of electricity in Cumnock is one for the Ayrshire Electricity Board, and I have no detailed knowledge of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers. I may, however, add that an application from the Board for consent to the erection of overhead lines in various parts of their area is now under consideration, and, as regards the burgh of Cumnock, I hope that it may be possible for my decision to be given before long.
    Mr. BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not the only place in Ayrshire which has been held up, and is he further aware that we have no powers over these boards, and can he not expedite matters so that the necessary installation can be made?
    Colonel ASHLEY: If the hon. Member will give me instances I will go into them myself.

  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.

    MINES DEPARTMENT (MEDICAL ADVISER).
    Mr. LUNNasked the Secretary for Mines if he can now give the name of the new medical adviser to the Mines Department and his qualifications to enable him to deal with the various diseases peculiar to the mining industry?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox): Dr. S. W. Fisher has been appointed Medical Inspector of Mines and Quarries. Since his demobilisation in 1919 Dr. Fisher has practised in a colliery district in South Wales, where he has obtained general experience of mining conditions and of the treatment of cases of mining accident and disease. He has taken special interest in silicosis and nystagmus, in which he has carried out research work, and in beat hand, beat knee and beat elbow.

    IRON AND STEEL PRODUCTION.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines if he can state approximately the amount of coal used during the first nine months of this year in the production of iron and steel?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The amount of coal used at iron and steel works during the first nine months of 1927 was approximately 18¼ million tons (including the coal equivalent of coke).

    MECHANICAL HAULAGE.
    Mr. BROMLEYasked the Secretary for Mines how many coal mines and which, if any, in Great Britain have mechanical haulage installed underground, and consequently use no pit ponies for that purpose?
    Colonel LANE FOX: There are approximately 1,300 mines where horses are not used below-ground. These include many small mines where the absence

    823
    of horses does not necessarily imply the presence of mechanical haulage. Nearly all mines employing horses make use of mechanical haulage as well. The number of mines at which no horses are used but which have an electrical haulage system underground is 324.

    PIT-HEAD BATHS.
    Sir A. SPROTasked the Secretary for Mines how much money is in hand from the levy imposed upon mining royalties for the purpose of providing pit-head baths for miners; if his Department has now settled upon the best system of providing pit-head baths; and if any have been commenced or planned since the Mining Industry Act was passed?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The amount received from Royalties Welfare Levy up to the 31st October was £195,000. To this should be added £2,881 on account of interest, and £91,726 which the Miners' Welfare Committee have allocated for baths from the Miners' Welfare Fund. The duty of providing baths rests upon the Miners' Welfare Committee and not upon my Department. The policy of the committee is fully explained in their Fifth Annual Report. They are testing a new type of pit-head bath by erecting four demonstration installations of that type in different parts of the country. One of these is half finished, the others have been planned, but have not yet reached the constructional stage.
    Mr. PALING: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any application has been made for this money by the various colliery companies who are going to erect baths, and whether any money has been granted from this fund?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The hon. Gentleman must give notice of that question.

    EMPLOYÉS, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. D. GRAHAMasked the Secretary for Mines the number of persons employed in the various collieries within the counties of Ayr, Dumbarton, Edinburgh, Fife, Haddington, Lanark, Linlithgow, Renfrew, and Stirling during the month of October, 1927?
    Colonel LANE FOX: With the hon. Member's permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following are the figures:

    County.

    Number of Wage Earners employed at Coal Mines in October, 1927.

    Ayr

    12,256

    Dumbarton

    1,770

    Edinburgh

    9,835

    Fife

    21,924

    Haddington

    3,117

    Lanark

    39,957

    Linlithgow

    5,762

    Renfrew

    291

    Stirling

    7,354

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (TOUR).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Prime Minister if he can inform the House as to what further sections of the Empire are to be visited by the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs; what time he is to spend in each; and when he is expected back in England?
    Major Sir GEORGE HENNESSY (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household):I have been asked to reply to this question. The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, who is also Secretary of State for the Colonies, arrived in Australia on 10th October, and will, according to present plans, leave for New Zealand on 17th November, reaching New Zealand on 27th November. He will sail for British Columbia on 20th December and it is anticipated that the ship in which he sails will call for a few hours at Suva in the Fiji Islands. He will be in Canada from 5th January until 3rd or 10th February, and he may be expected in England a week later.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is it not a fact that the tour is proving the greatest possible success?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYCan it not be arranged for other Members of the Cabinet to make a similar tour?

    GOVERNMENT PRINTING ESTABLISHMENTS.
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he

    825
    has considered the Report of the Committee on Government Printing Establishments presented to him last March; and whether His Majesty's Government intend to carry out the recommendations contained in that Report?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): The Report referred to is now under consideration.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: As this Report has been under consideration for five months now, may I ask whether the Government can soon come to some decision?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I will give the matter my personal attention.
    Mr. HARMSWORTH: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether there is any truth in the statement that new plant has been ordered or installed in the Harrow works?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I could not answer that without notice.

    WAR LOANS (CONVERSION).
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give the estimated total of direct savings to the taxpayers effected by the series of conversion loans offered since His Majesty's Government came into office, and the amount that these operations have added to the National Debt?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The conversion offers made by the present Government have increased the nominal total of the debt by some £55 millions, but notwithstanding this, it is estimated that they have reduced the annual charge to the taxpayer by £1,546,000 per annum. This may seem a paradoxical result, but as I have frequently pointed out, these two figures cannot properly be related. The important figure to the taxpayer is the annual interest charge, which has to be met out of taxation; and the annual interest charge has been reduced by the recent conversions, despite the adverse circumstances in which they had to be effected. The increase in the nominal debt, due to the issue of stock at a discount, does not involve any increased burden to the taxpayer as the Government cannot be required to pay off the
    826
    stock so created, and would only do so if and when repayment could be effected at a profit. I should of course prefer to avoid the issue of stock at a discount, as the Colwyn Committee recommended, but it is quite impossible to deal with the large and numerous maturities which the present Government have had to face without offering terms acceptable to holders.
    Mr. ALBERYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of 3½ per cent. War Loan, 1925–28, of 5 per cent. National War Bonds, Series 2, and of 4 per cent. War Bonds, Series 2, which have been converted into 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan?
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will furnish the House with full particulars with regard to the recent conversion operations?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The amounts of maturing liabilities converted into 3½ per cent. Conversion Loan, under the prospectus of the 15th September last, were as follow:—

    £

    3½ per cent. War Loan 1925–28

    21,166,000

    5 per cent. National War Bonds, 1928

    49,147,000

    With premiums thereon of

    2,457,000

    4 per cent. National War Bonds, 1928 (Income Tax compounded)

    10,274,000

    Making a grand total of

    83,044,000

    The conversion of the 3½ per cent. War Loan which was issued at the beginning of the War, when interest rates were little above the pre-War level, has necessarily involved an additional charge amounting to £242,000 per annum; but the conversion of the 5 per cent, and 4 per cent. War Bonds, after taking account of the premiums due on the 5 per cent. Bonds and the Income Tax privileges of the 4 per cent. Bonds, has resulted in a saving estimated at £162,000 per annum.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the percentage of the conversion of the various loans to the total which might have been converted?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I can, of course, answer a question of that sort, but it is not within my mental recollection.
    Mr. DALTON: Do I understand the Chancellor to say that the net effect of the conversion dealt with in the answer has been not only to increase capital liability, but also annual interest?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that would be an unfair way of putting it, having regard to the fact that one of the stocks that has been converted was a stock borrowed on far more favourable terms at the beginning of the war than any we had been able to get in the market since.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Is it within the recollection of the Chancellor that not only the Colwyn Committee, but his Noble Friend who was then Financial Secretary, announced that the Treasury were fully aware of the disadvantages of issuing stock below par, and in view of the fact that it would have been perfectly possible to issue new stock much nearer par than this 3½ per cent, conversion loan, why was that principle departed from?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: These matters are the subject of prolonged consideration by the expert authorities at the Treasury and also at the Bank of England, and it would be quite impossible to argue the pros and cons of any particular method of conversion at Question Time. I shall be quite ready at any time to explain and defend the measures that have been taken to convert our maturities as they arise. It is not possible, however, to deal with it by question and answer; and the hon. Gentleman makes an assertion which is not at all accepted or admitted and which rests solely on his own personal information.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: But does the Chancellor realise that when we have a general Debate on this, either he or the Financial Secretary agree to the general principle, but when it comes to particular instances that general principle is not put into effect?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: A borrower is not a chooser in these matters. These conversions have to be provided for as they arise, and we are bound to produce the plan which commends itself and which is acceptable to existing owners of the stock.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Did not the right hon. Gentleman state, in reply to a pre-
    828
    vious question, that the reason the conversion offer had been made at a very large discount was to make it more attractive? Does he consider that the response to this recent conversion, however, justifies that expectation, and that the response shows that the offer was regarded as attractive?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes. The information of my advisers has been that the response was eminently satisfactory in all the circumstances and affords ground for viewing with some confidence the still more serious conversion obligations which are impending.

    BEER DUTY.
    Lord APSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount that would be lost to the Treasury by the relief of the Excise duty on pure beer to the extent of 1d.; and whether a similar amount could be made up by a small Customs duty on foreign imported barley and dried milk?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have no knowledge of the standard by which my Noble Friend would define what he understands by the term "pure beer," but if he means beer brewed from certain ingredients only, I fear it would be impracticable to give the estimate asked for in the first part of the question. I cannot, therefore, make the comparison indicated in the second part of the question.
    Lord APSLEY: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he could not go into the figures again if I gave him, as a definition of "pure beer," beer malted from British barley by yeast, not by chemical products?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Before the Chancellor of the Exchequer answers this question, will he always bear in mind that any increase in beer drinking would make it even more difficult for children to get milk, which is absolutely essential to the health of the nation?
    Lord APSLEY: Is it not a fact that in the days when we had pure beer there was plenty of milk to be got?
    Viscountess ASTOR: And more drunk enness, and may I—[Interruption.]
    Mr. MACLEAN: Before the right hon. Gentleman accepts that definition, is he not prepared to have some of that beer sent along?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think I will not attempt to intervene in the dispute which is taking place, but if my hon. Friend will give me the precise data, I will then consider whether it is practicable for us to furnish him with the information he is seeking.

    POLITICAL FUNDS (INCOME TAX AND SUPER-TAX).
    Lord APSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Income and Super-tax are paid upon the income derived from investments held on behalf of political parties or their trustees; and, if so, what is the amount collected from this source annually by the Treasury?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Any such income is liable to Income Tax at the full standard rate, but I am unable to say what the yield of tax from this source is. As regards Super-tax, I must remind my Noble Friend that the Super-tax is only chargeable on the income of individuals.
    Lord APSLEY: May I ask whether, if any of the political funds should be held by an individual or by trustees as a personal fund for the individual, he would not be subject to Super-tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am confident that the law is carried into effect with the utmost strictness, in all cases of Income Tax and Super-tax, by the officials of the Inland Revenue Department, but I cannot speak on any individual case with knowledge, because, as is well known, the Inland Revenue Commissioners are bound by an oath of secrecy and are bound under that oath to carry out the law under the authority of Parliament.

    INTER-ALLIED DEBTS.
    Mr. SULLIVANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of debt due to Great Britain by France and Italy, and the amount repaid since 1918?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The net War Debts due to Great Britain by France and Italy,
    830
    as at the date when the Funding Agreements were signed, amount to £600 millions and £560 millions, respectively. The French Government have paid £7 millions since the signing of the Funding Agreement on 12th July, 1926. The Italian Government have paid £8 millions under the Funding Agreement of 27th January, 1926.
    Mr. SULLIVAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if the French Government have signed a Funding Agreement?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, they have not. They have signed an agreement, but it has not been ratified by the French Government.
    Mr. SULLIVAN: If that be the case, is not the statement that the right hon. Gentleman made last week wholly misleading?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I demur altogether from that. It is an extremely inaccurate account of the actual facts.
    Mr. W. THORNE: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the two countries mentioned in the question are paying their annual payments punctually?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, certainly. Since the Agreements were signed all the payments have been made punctually.
    Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amounts received in payments for War Debts in 1926–27 and the amount payable to the United States in the same year; and the maximum that we shall receive in any year as payments for War Debts, and the maximum amount that we shall have to pay to the United States?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In 1926–27 we received £8,200,000 from War Debts and paid £33,100,000 to the Government of the United States. The maximum amount due to His Majesty's Government in any year under the War Debt funding agreements is approximately £20 millions a year, and the maximum amount payable to the Government of the United States is £38 millions a year. It must be borne in mind that we have undertaken to limit our claims in respect of Inter-Allied debts to the amount which, together with our reparation receipts, will suffice to cover our payments to the United States Government.
    Mr. PALING: May!
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Certainly. During the year 1926–27, our reparation receipts were some £9½ millions. During the current financial year they should amount to £14½ millions; and when the full Dawes annuity is reached, they may amount to upwards of £20 millions. These receipts must be taken into account in comparing our income and outgoings from debts.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Is it a fact that the rate of interest on the American debt for a period of 62 years is 3½ per cent., and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the United States is now funding its internal debt at 3 per cent.?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I do not see how that is relevant to any question on which I can give information to the right hon. Gentleman.

    MUNICIPAL BANKS.
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Report of the Departmental Committee on Municipal Banks has been received; and, if not, what is the cause of the delay and when may the Report be expected?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Report has not yet been received, but I understand that it is likely to be submitted before the end of this month.

    BRITISH CELANESE, LIMITED, (GOVERNMENT SHARES).
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury at what date and under what circumstances 500,000 shares held by the Government in British Celanese, Limited, were sold at 20s. per share; and why they were sold at this time, in view of the fact that not long afterwards they realised as much as 125s.?
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my predecessor on the 22nd June last, of which I am sending him a copy. These shares, which were sold just before that date, were cumulative participating preference shares; they have never attained the price referred to in the last part of the question, which appears to be that quoted a short time ago for the ordinary shares.
    Mr. WELLOCK: Will the hon. Gentleman agree that the value of the ordinary shares will affect the preference shares, and seeing that not long before this rise took place these shares were sold, will he not disclose the name of the buyer?
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in any case the Treasury is expected to keep a prophet on the premises?
    Mr. WELLOCK: May I ask—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We must not debate the question.
    Sir F. HALL: May I ask one question?

    HOUSTON ESTATE.
    Mr. HANNON (by Private Notice)asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any payment has been made to the Exchequer following upon the offer made by Lady Houston in respect of her late husband's estate?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Lady Houston has paid to the Exchequer the sum of £1,500,000 as an act of grace, without admitting any legal liability on her part. I have accepted this sum, which in its amount is unprecedented, which was offered spontaneously and from a public-spirited desire to help the finances of the country in a munificent way.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was the amount which would have had to be paid had there been legal liability?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am afraid I must ask the House not to press me on that point at the present time. There are other important beneficiaries of the estate with whom no settlement has been reached, and in connection with these cases it is possible, indeed more than possible, that prolonged litigation will take place. I must therefore ask the House not to invite from me any statement either in the nature of figures or of an attempt to weigh the legal situation until those matters are finally settled, when I will disclose fully the figures resulting from those investigations which will then have taken place.
    Mr. MACLEAN: I would like to ask, Mr. Speaker, what there is about this question that is specially urgent or important and necessitates its being put as a private notice question? Is not this an abuse of the Rule dealing with private notice questions?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That was for me to judge. I was satisfied that in this case there were good grounds for allowing the question.
    Mr. MACLEAN: But could not this question have gone down on the Order Paper in the usual way? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I am asking, with all due deference, what there is in this question of a special or urgent character to necessitate its being put as a private notice question?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am not prepared to say anything more. I considered the matter, and I was satisfied that there were reasons for taking the action I have taken.

DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 114.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 114.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [14th November] on Consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee).
  CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.

    Clause 9.—(Power to require reference to High Court.)
    Amendment proposed: In page 5, line 30, to leave out the words, "subject to rules of court."—(Colonel Wedgwood.)
    Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of tie Bill."
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I think it would be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, if you would kindly indicate the next Amendment after this one which you propose to call, as I have been unable to find out.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have had some consultation on the matter and what I propose to call next after this Clause has been disposed of is the Amendment in Clause 10, page 5, line 39, to leave out the word "five" and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Since last night I have had the opportunity of talking this matter over with the Solicitor-General, who has made it plain to me that my fears were groundless. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. Mac Robert): I beg to move, in page 5, to leave out from the beginning of line 35 to the word "a" in line 36 and to insert instead thereof the words
    "Where the person aggrieved is a person whose principal place of business is in Scotland, this Section shall apply as if the reference to the High Court were."
    Some hon. Members thought that Subsection (2) as it appears in the Bill was rather vague as regards the jurisdiction of the Court of Session, and an Amendment was put down by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and others
    860
    which rests on the word "domiciled." We think that would not do at all, because "domicile" has a very technical meaning. This Amendment expresses in words what the Sub-section itself implies. It also gives effect to the intention of those who were going to move that other Amendment, because it fixes the test of jurisdiction as being "commercial domicile," the commercial centre of the business.
    Mr. STEPHEN: I am disposed to accept the attempt that has been made by the Solicitor-General for Scotland to meet us in connection with this Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Provisions as to alterations of the length of films).
    Colonel DAY: I beg to move, in page 5, line 39, to leave out the word "five," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
    This is an extremely important Clause which is very essential as far as small exhibitors are concerned.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I am prepared to accept this Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 5, to leave out from the second word "the," in line 41, to the first word "to," in page 6, line 1, and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "maker of the film or, if at the time of the alteration the film has been acquired by a renter, the renter."
    I gave an undertaking in Committee that I would make it plain that the person responsible was the then owner of the film and not necessarily the original name on the register. I have taken legal advice on this point, and I am informed that a provision of this kind is necessary.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Special provisions as to serial films, etc.)
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to move, in page V, to leave out from the word "shown," in line 6, to the end of line 12.

    861
    I presume the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to accept this Amendment because he has already accepted a similar proposal in regard to a previous Clause. For instance, as I have already pointed out, it would be quite impossible for the representatives of a group of people to go to Paris to see a film.
    Colonel DAY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I quite agree, and I accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to move, in page 7, to leave out lines 13 to 18, inclusive.
    This Amendment is moved in order that the President of the Board of Trade shall not have the power to be a sort of special nuisance to anybody who has taken a special antipathy to a film. It is as well not to run any risks of this description.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    This proposal only deals with the parts of the serial film that have not been trade shown. The law will be that the first part should be shown, but the other parts need not have any visible existence in this country. I am told that these films as a rule do not alter in character, and therefore I think it is quite reasonable that this part of the Clause might be left out.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am afraid that I cannot accept this Amendment because the general purpose of the Clause is that the films should be trade shown. The people who are primarily concerned in this business attach considerable importance to this practice being continued. If there happens to be a considerable change in the character of the film these people consider that there should be a discretion to insist upon a trade show in all cases, which, after all, is the rule of the Bill. For these reasons I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I am sorry that the President of the Board of Trade cannot see his way to accept this Amendment, because the Bill puts the Government Department in a rather difficult
    862
    position. The right hon. Gentleman says that he has consulted the exhibitors on this point but I would like to know which exhibitors he has consulted. We were told in Committee that, after all, the steps he was taking were being taken on the advice of all the exhibitors representing the whole of the trade. Yesterday I presented a petition signed by 900 cinema proprietors who were opposed to the Bill altogether, and under these circumstances this proposal seems to me to be placing a Government Department in a difficult position. If any common informer comes forward and says that these people ought to make a trade show, then the President of the Board of Trade must say either "yes" or "no." We had a very long discussion in Committee as to the advisability or otherwise of having this trade show, and it seems to me quite unnecessary to retain this proviso. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will now see that it is quite unnecessary to retain it.
    4.0 p.m.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think the hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. This is a general provision referring to all serial films, and not dealing in a discriminatory manner with this or that particular kind of serial. May I add that, while I quite admit that some exhibitors are not in favour of the quota system, I do not think there is a single exhibitor in this country who does not lay the utmost stress upon the trade show.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think the right hon. Gentleman is right in offering temporary opposition to this Amendment, in order to enable the Opposition to discover to what Amendment we are rushing next. This particular Amendment is one which certainly ought to be accepted, and which I hope the whole House will agree to accept. It deals only with serial films. I hope some Members of the House have seen a serial film. If they have seen one, I may tell them that all others are exactly the same. There is not only no change in the character of the serial film after it has started, but there is no change in the character of all serial films. They are all precisely the same; they all leave the heroine at the end of each part in the hands of the villian. Under the Bill without this proviso, the first three parts

    863
    of these serials have to be trade-shown. It is no kindness to the trade to trade-show them, because they must be awfully bored with serials; but under the Bill there is the opportunity of seeing the first three of the six or eight parts, and surely that should be enough.
    This proviso reserves to the Board of Trade power at any time to say, "No, we will have trade shows of every single part of this serial, because it may change its character." If it did change its character it would be all to the good, and the Board of Trade ought to encourage any such change; but in any case there can be no sufficient reason for leaving in the Bill a proviso which the Board of Trade itself knows perfectly well will never come into operation. The Board of Trade would not dream of asking that more than three of these parts should be trade-shown, and I can only say that, as has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander), if this power be left in it will leave in the hands of the Government Department the power of making invidious distinctions between the serial films produced by different firms of manufacturers. I do not think the Board of Trade ought to have any power to make any such distinction. If they could educate the public taste into doing away with these shilling shockers called "serial films," it would so much the better, but, if they do not, all that they are asking is that in certain cases they may compel these people to show what no one wants to see.
    Colonel DAY: I do not quite know whether the President of the Board of Trade wants to keep in this proviso for the purpose of justifying the registration fee that we have already passed, but yesterday the right hon. Gentleman said that there was going to be a charge of £l or a guinea in respect of each portion of a serial film. It seems to me that, if he insists upon this proviso remaining in the Bill, it will be more or less a justification for his Department compelling a trade show of each portion of a. serial film. No doubt the President of
    the Board of Trade or the officers of his Department who have advised him know, from their experiences of serial films, that the remark of my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) is quite correct, that, after you have seen the first three portions of a serial, you have practically got the idea of the whole lot. You know in what kind of photography the film is going to be produced; you also know the plot, with the exception of how the heroine is going to escape in the various episodes and the different calamities that are going to happen during the serial. I would suggest to the President of the Board of Trade that this will give the trade a lot of unnecessary trouble, and no doubt the advice he has received with regard to this Clause has been submitted to him by only a very small portion of the committee of exhibitors. The figures I gave yesterday proved, I think, to the House and to the right hon. Gentleman that the exhibitors as a whole are right against a quota system of any kind, but this only makes it more onerous, and, as the President has made use—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: This does not deal with the quota; it deals with the trade show.
    Colonel DAY: The trade show of the serial film. It is all very well for the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) to laugh, because he is in touch with the council of the Exhibitors' Association at all times, and is practically their spokesman. They themselves have told me that anything they want to get the hon. Member for Beading will propose for them. It is all very well for the hon. Member to sit there laughing, but the right hon. Gentleman knows full well that this is an unnecessary proviso, and that it is no use worrying the trade with additional Clauses which make their business very much more difficult than it already is.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 131.

    Division No. 332.]

    AYES.

    [4.7 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Bainlel, Lord

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir Jamts

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Albery, Irving James

    Astory, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Apsley, Lord

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bellaris, Commander Carlyon W.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Berry, Sir George

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Penny, Frederick George

    Bethel, A.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Braitnwaite, Major A. N.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Ramsden, E.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Buchan, John

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Sandon, Lord

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Savery, S. S.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hilton, Cecil

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Christie, J. A.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Cohen, Major J Brunel

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Styles, Captain H. W.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Illffe, Sir Edward M.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Couper, J. B.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Templeton, W. P.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Tinne, J. A.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset. Yeovill)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green

    Waddington, R.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Drewe, C.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    McLean, Major A.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M)

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Wells, S. R.

    Ersklne, James Malcolm Montelth

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford. Lichfield)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Fielden, E. B.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Forrest, W.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Greenall, T.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Cluse, W. S.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Connolly, M.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Baker, Waiter

    Cove, W. G.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Barnes, A.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Batey, Joseph

    Davies. Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hardie, George D.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Duncan, C.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Broad, F. A.

    Dunnlco, H.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Bromfield, William

    Fenby, T. D.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Bromley, J.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Butt)

    Gibbins. Joseph

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Buchanna, G.

    Glllett, George M.

    Hirst, G. H.

    866

    867

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Owen, Major G.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Palin, John Henry

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Paling, W.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham Plaistow)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Townend, A. E.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Potts, John S.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Kelly, w. T.

    Ritson, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    Kennedy, T.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

    Kirkwood, D.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Lansbury, George

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Lawrence, Susan

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Lee, F.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Westwood, J.

    Lowth, T.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Lunn, William

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Mackinder, W.

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighiey)

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Snail, Harry

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    March, S.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wright, W.

    Maxton, James

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Montague, Frederick

    Sullivan, J

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Whiteley.

    CLAUSE 13.—(Provisions as to renters' quota.)
    Amendment made:
    In page 7, line 25, leave out the word "eleven," and insert instead thereof the word "nine."—[Sir P. Gunliffe-Lister.]
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 7, line 34, to leave out from the word "quota" to the end of the Clause.
    The words which I propose to leave out were added during the Committee stage of the Bill. I do not think we can expect the right hon. Gentleman who laboured so hard to insert them to take them out now, but I do think he might compromise on the rate of film involved. When this Bill was first introduced, there had to be provided by each renter and shown by each exhibitor a certain percentage of British films, and there was no more definition of the nature of the British films frian that. But as the Bill was going through Committee upstairs, the big producers of British films, particularly the new company formed with two and a half millions of capital, came to think that the Bill providing a 20 per cent, quota was not enough. They said, "There are a lot of small British producers who can produce short films, and the result will be that the 20 per cent, quota of British films will consist almost entirely of the cheap small stuff, and not of the long super-films." So they saw the President of the Board of Trade, and they said to him, "This is
    868
    not good enough. We are not out simply to develop short British films. What we want to have is the opportunity of a market for our big films," and for various reasons, which are sufficiently obvious, the President of the Board of Trade agreed to a change in the Bill and the change was this: They said, "There shall be the same proportion of long films and of short films, so that we shall not have the British quota filled with short, cheap films, and there shall be a definite quota retained for the long, expensive films, the product of the big new companies."
    The House will see what that change means. It means that the small number of long British films have got to a certain extent a corner in the market. There are very few firms in this country that have the capital to produce them, and they can get together and fix their price for long British films at what they like, because the exhibitors have got to show a certain proportion of long British films. There can be no corner formed in short British films, because too many companies produce them. By their Amendment, the Government hand over the exhibitors of this country to the mercy of a small group of producers of long expensive films, and demand that they shall show 20 per cent, of long British films. The Opposition upstairs expressed quite clearly their feeling about this change, and their objection to assisting in the formation of monopolies. We were beaten upstairs,

    869
    and we shall be beaten to-day, but I am quite certain that the country as a whole would prefer that a Conservative Government in their Acts of Parliament should not foster and bolster up monopolies in this country in order to bleed the country in the way of higher prices.
    Having said that, and it being, I fear, impossible for the Government to leave out these words, I beg the Government to consider whether they cannot meet us half way by defining a long film differently from the definition in the Bill. The definition at present is a film of more than 3,000 feet, and I think that means every film which takes more than 40 minutes to show. A film of three-quarters of an hour and over is a long film. Could we not make the long film a much larger category by saying that anything over 2,000 feet, instead of 3,000 feet, shall constitute a long film? That would enable more British films to qualify for long films, and would increase the difficulties of a monopolistic product. In fact, an increase in the number of long films would mean cheaper prices for exhibitors and cheaper entrance fees for the public in the picture houses.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite right. I cannot accept this Amendment. He is also quite right in saying that it was extensively discussed upstairs and was defeated by a majority. It was not only defeated by a majority, but also defeated, I think, on merits. If the public wants to see short films, then the programmes will be changed accordingly, and will consist predominantly of short films; but as things stand to-day, the predominantly popular programme is the programme of long films and occasional short films. The right hon. Gentleman certainly cannot base any claim on the ground that we cannot produce these feature films. At Question Time to-day I gave figures as to the stimulus given to the production of long films by this Bill, showing that we are getting a production of 60 long films or more this year, which is a complete answer on that ground. I go further, and if I may compare the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment yesterday with his speeches to-day, I can claim the right hon. Gentleman as a supporter of the Clause as it stands, and an opponent
    870
    of his own Amendment to-day, because yesterday he asked us to confine the quota to long films, and said that short films could look after themselves.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman must not misquote me. If you are going to divide the Bill into long and short films, and it is not necessary in the interests of British industry to quota short films, why go to the trouble and expense of registering and quotaing short films, when all you want is to register and quota long films?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am dealing with the Amendment before the House, and what we have to consider is what will happen to the Bill and the trade if we carry this Amendment. If we carry this Amendment, nobody need put a single long film into his quota. The proposition the right hon. Gentleman advanced yesterday was that the really important thing was to develop long films, and therefore the one thing to insist upon was a quota of long films. Therefore, I take it the right hon. Gentleman yesterday was my supporter. On the merits of the case, surely it is reasonable that if we are to quota we should develop, as I am glad to say we are under the stimulus of this Bill actually developing now, the small films, the bread-and-butter of the industry, and the large feature films as well. Events have justified the course the Committee took, and I ask the House to support the Committee in that decision.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I want the House to come back to the actual position in which we find ourselves. If this Amendment were accepted, the Bill would revert to the position in which it originally was. The right hon. Gentleman has been persuaded by the few firms producing large films to insist on a long film quota, and we on this side say that it is fortifying a monopoly. That is our reason for wishing to put the Bill back to its original shape. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the number of long feature films that were produced recently, or were in course of production. I wonder if he knows how many of these long films about which he spoke are war pictures, in the production of which the Admiralty have given extraordinary assistance? This is a time when the British Navy is very hard pressed for oil fuel, and cannot get enough to

    871
    carry out exercises at sea; yet in order that this British film can be produced for propaganda purposes the British Mediterranean Fleet, our only large fleet, went out to sea, and carried out heavy-gun firing at a cost of many thousands of pounds in order to produce one of these boasted long British films. The whole thing is nothing but a propaganda for militarism and war preparedness, and the very opposite of the declared intentions of His Majesty's Government. All this propaganda is a direct negation of the alleged attitude of the country. I quote that film as an example of one of the boasted long British films which the right hon. Gentleman hugs to his bosom as being one of the results of his Bill. If that is one of the results, I can only say, Heaven help him! With regard to the military films, I have heard many expressions of dissent and dissatisfaction.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: One was described by the "Daily Herald" as "a great picture red-hot from the studio."
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: The right hon. Gentleman does not hold himself responsible for the "Daily Mail," and I must not be held responsible for the "Daily Herald," but I am glad he reads the "Daily Herald," and I hope he reads the political part as well as the film part, for I can assure him it is equally excellent. That is the sort of long British film that is being produced at the present time. They are objectionable films. We had one the other day in which a famous British pilot of the Royal Air Force was sent to bomb what purportedl to be a Chinese village. The procedure was described in great detail. As the airman flew over the village explosive charges were let off by electricity under the houses and shops to represent the bombs. If that is the sort of film that the President of the Board of Trade congratulates himself on producing, I know that the Foreign Office will not allow it to go into China if they can avoid it- Such a film would do immense harm to British relations with and interests in China. I think it is horrible to see this kind of thing on the screen.
    The great majority of the feature films, and I am sorry to say possibly the most successful because they receive such tremendous assistance from the War Office
    872
    and Admiralty and Air Ministry, are these war films, and the immediate effect has been simply to encourage these films, which are neither more nor less than propaganda films of the worst type. Therefore, I say that the right hon. Gentleman would have been far better advised to have left the Bill as it was. Let the quota be filled from the long film or the short film. The right hon. Gentleman says he wants to see British films produced. I think it extremely unfair that the renter should have a quota at all. What matters to the public is what films-are shown on the screen. I do not know what reason there is for the renter's quota at all. However, there it is. Leave the man as free a hand as you can; do not hamper him in this way, and* above all, do not rivet a monopoly on what is unfortunately an infant industry.
    Colonel DAY: I very much regret to see that the President of the Board of Trade has not readily accepted the suggestion made, because there can be no justification for the extension of the length of film that the quota should impose on the renter. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman has been pressed considerably by the representatives of the film group of the Federation of British Industries to make this addition, but when we see through some of the things that some of the most responsible of these representatives are saying in the Press, they fill many of us with alarm. I have here a cutting giving a statement of a gentleman who is a very influential man in the trade. I do not want to mention his name, but the right hon. Gentleman can have the cutting. He said:
    "He agreed that British companies would probably be willing to accept commissions from foreign countries to make-quota pictures, and no doubt would make-them with foreign appeal if asked, but they would not include anything that would offend British taste, especially as the class of picture so commissioned would be on a larger scale than the companies can ordinarily undertake."
    That statement was made by one of the most influential men and one of the controllers of the biggest producing and renting companies in this country. It is apparent there that what they have done to the right hon. Gentleman is to go to him and get him to make this provision in the Bill so as to freeze out the smaller producer, so that the small producer will not be able to do as he has done in the past, namely, produce those two-reel and

    873
    three-reel films which the renters have so readily purchased and which they should be able to use for quota. We see what is more or less a plot on the part of these people to freeze out the others who have really built up the business heretofore, the small producers of these two-and three-reel films. These people come into the business, many of them knowing very little about it, financing producing companies, amalgamating themselves with them, and calling themselves renters, and then in the hope that this Bill will go through as they wish it, they persuade either the right hon. Gentleman or the officers of his Department to agree that this provision is necessary for the successful running of the Bill.
    There is no doubt, if the right hon. Gentleman would only consider it, that the introduction of this provision will hamper the production of British films. The right hon. Gentleman should consider the enormous cost of making some of these long films. Where films of 2,000 or 2,500 feet can be made for £4,000 or £5,000 or £8,000 sometimes, when you get over the 3,000 feet film it will cost £30,000 to £40,000, and even more, because before that film can be shown to the public in the form of a 3,000 feet film they probably take 100,000 feet or 80,000 feet originally, and they have to cut and cut it down to get it in a form attractive to the public. The right hon. Gentleman at Question Time said that 60 long films had been made in the last year, but he did not tell us how many of those long films were successful. I guarantee that if he made very careful inquiries from the exhibitors of the country he would probably find that 50 per cent, were more or less films that had no attractive power, and that the exhibitors in many cases would rather not show them because they do not suit the taste of the public. That is rather a large statement, I know, and the right hon. Gentleman does not accept it. But as I am in close personal touch with the exhibitors perhaps I have a better knowledge of what the exhibitors think of some of the British films produced in the last year, than even the right hon. Gentleman has. I would rather like to know from the right hon. Gentleman how many times he has even taken the trouble to witness British films during the past year. I guarantee that he has not seen 10 of those 60. I should be surprised if he has seen five.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As I am challenged and the hon. Gentleman is making a studied reflection on British films, I will tell him on what I based the statement that I made to the House at Question Time. I based it on the considered report of the exhibitors, given after trade shows to their own clients in advising them on the matter. I say advisedly, having been supplied with the marks which they have given to British films as compared with foreign films after trade show, that in the aggregate and percentage for percentage the British films compare not only fairly but favourably with the whole of the foreign films.
    Colonel DAY: I am very much obliged for that explanation. Will the right hon. Gentleman go so far as to tell us how those exhibitors have told the public what they think of the films that he hap mentioned? I believe he said something about the marks that the exhibitors have made on the films. Would the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House exactly how that system operates, because I have been an exhibitor for many years and I do not know of it?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will tell the hon. Gentleman, because I am glad to find something that he does not know about this trade. There is a committee of exhibitors to view films at trade shows, and they issue, through the medium of their trade papers and otherwise to members of their Association, marks upon the films which are shown— not moral marks, but marks as to whether they think the films a good box-office proposition. I have here details of the films shown this year. In films carrying nine marks and over, the British percentage was 22; eight to nine marks, 12°9 per cent.: seven to eight marks, 4°2 per cent.; six to seven marks, 10 per cent.; and five to six marks, no British films at all. Thus, though comparatively few in number, the British films got on the whole a higher average of marks than the foreign films. I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity to make that statement
    Colonel DAY: I did not think the right hon. Gentleman was so simple as to think that the trade would accept that report. I do not think that the majority of the trade, or rather I would

    875
    say that very few people in the trade, would take any notice of that report which the right hon. Gentleman has just read. Further, as the right hon. Gentleman mentions the trade papers, perhaps he is also aware that the trade papers of the cinema industry get their income out of the British films, or at least 70 per cent, of it from the advertisements of British films. I have on several occasions spoken to proprietors of cinema papers and they have told me that although they know the films are bad, they must not say so because that would ruin their papers. They rely for the sale of their papers, and to make their papers pay, on the advertisements that they get from the British renters and producers, and it is essential for them to bolster up the British film industry.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: When we are discussing British trade we really ought to be careful not to libel it unnecessarily. What I have read is not something which has been said by a trade paper correspondent; it is the report of the exhibitors themselves, the exhibitors' committee, on the films which they see at their own trade shows. I leave it at that.
    Colonel DAY: I do not want to enter into controversy, because I may be drawn to mention names which I do not want to mention. That is the one thing I try to avoid. As the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned the trade papers, it may be information to the House that amongst the biggest cinema theatrical proprietors in this country the largest groups take no notice of any of these reports, and always send their own representatives to see the trade shows of all the films. The usual custom is for them to send their own booking managers and agents to see the films when they are trade shown. The persistence of the right hon. Gentleman in keeping in this proviso only confirms the fact that, instead of his trying to assist the British film industry, he is helping these few people who can control and are hoping in the future to produce the long films, which will be of great detriment to the industry.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to he left out, to the word 'three' in line 39, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 142.

    Division No. 333.]

    AYES.

    [14.44 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    England, Colonel A.

    Albery, Irving James

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cautiey, Sir Henry S.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Balnlel, Lord

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Fermoy, Lord

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M

    Christie, J. A.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Forrest, W.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Clayton, G. C.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Bennett, A. J.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Berry, Sir George

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Gates, Percy

    Bethel, A.

    Couper, J. B.

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Llndsey, Gainsbro)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Cunlifte, Sir Herbert

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Dawson, Sir Phllip

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Harland, A.

    Buchan, John

    Drewe, C.

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Stuart, Crlchton-, Lord C.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Phillpson, Mabel

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Pilcher, G.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Pliditch, Sir Philip

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Waddington, R.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

    Ramsden, E.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hail)

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Remnant, Sir James

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Richardson, sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Lamb, J. O.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Wells, S. R.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Long, Major Eric

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Sandon, Lord

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

    Savery, S. S.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wood, Sir Klngsley (Woolwich, W.)

    McLean, Major A.

    Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Smithers, Waldron

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Major Cope and Major the Marquess

    of Titchfield.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Montague, Frederick

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Groves, T.

    Murnin, H.

    Amnion, Charles George

    Grundy, T. W.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Owen, Major G.

    Baker, Walter

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Palln, John Henry

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hardie, George D.

    Pallng, w.

    Batey, Joseph

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Hayes, John Henry

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Potts, John S.

    Broad, F. A.

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Ritson, J.

    Bromfield, William

    Hirst, G. H.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Bromley, J.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

    Rose, Frank H.

    Buchanan, G.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Charleton, H. C.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Clowes, S.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Compton, Joseph

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Connolly, M.

    Kennedy, T.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Cove, W. G.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Kirkwood. D.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Lansbury, George

    Snell, Harry

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lawrence, Susan

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillp

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lee, F.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lindley, F. W.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Dennison, R.

    Lowth, T.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Duncan, C.

    Lunn, William

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Dunnico, H.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Sullivan, J.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Mackinder, W.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Gardner, J. P.

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Taylor, R. A.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Gillett, George M.

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middiesbro, w.)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Greenall, T.

    March, S.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Maxton, James

    Thurtle, Ernest

    878

    879

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Westwood, J.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Townend, A E.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Viant, S. P.

    Whiteley, W.

    Wright, W.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Wedowood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Charles

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Edwards.

    Welsh, J. C

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Mr. KELLY: I beg to move, in page 8, line 4, after the word "been," to insert the words "or is."
    As the Clause is at present, any renter who fails to comply with the requirements of this Part of the Act as to the quota is guilty of an offence, but if someone should discover that in his stock of films there is a shortage of the length of British films which the Government say ought to be there, the renter is to be hauled before the Courts and penalised. I know there is a proviso—unless he can prove to the satisfaction of the Court that the reason for non-compliance was beyond his control—but I ask the House if it is the right and just way of dealing with people in business that they should be compelled to appear before the Court in order to show that some manager or assistant, someone on whom they relied to purchase a certain length of British film, has not carried out his instructions. I am amazed at the attitude of the Government in the making of crimes. We ask that instead of the Clause reading that a certificate has been issued, it should also say "or is issued," giving the renter the opportunity before the matter comes into Court of securing a certificate that he has remedied the awful crime of not having a sufficient length of British film on his premises. Surely the Government is not desirous of making the lawyers even busier than they are or of finding more work for the criminal Courts. It seems in every Bill we have had lately there is a determination on the part of the Government to see that unemployment does not operate in the criminal Courts. We ask that instead of it being laid down that at some time in the past a certificate has been issued there shall be an opportunity for the man to have a quota so that he may save himself from being hauled before the Court and penalised to the enormous extent set out in the Measure.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to second the Amendment.
    At a time when trade generally is languishing, the one trade that seems to be
    880
    busy is the manufacture of offences. We seem to be concerned more than anything else with the manufacture of offences. In the last 18 months this House has done nothing but manufacture offences, and now we are engaged in the same process again. It seems to me the Bill is to be made as vexatious as it can possibly be made to exhibitors and renters, and I wish to enter my protest against the spirit of the Government in attempting to badger these people in the way they are doing. There is no criminal intent at all. It may be mere lapse of memory or duty on the part of some official, but the renter is made a criminal. One man gets the sack and the other fello-A gets fined. I see no good in that kind of thing at all, and I wish to add my protest against this method of legislation and the attitude taken by the Government.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): I rather think the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment are under the impression that the words they propose to insert are necessary in order to prevent the renter from being guilty unless, before the question of any quota arises, some opportunity has been given by the Board of Trade in accordance with Clause 22 (2). That is not the intention. The provisions of Clause 22 (2) allow the Board of Trade, after consultation with the Advisory Committee, to give a certificate that the reasons for non-compliance were beyond the control of the renter or exhibitor. Obviously that implies that certificates shall be granted not before but after failure to comply with the provision as to the renter's quota. Therefore the words proposed to be inserted add absolutely nothing to the Clause. If they do anything they tend to obscure it and, having regard to that fact, I cannot accept the Amendment and I do not suppose the hon. Member, if he accepts what I am saying, will press it.
    Mr. KELLY: What about the last words of this Sub-section?—
    "unless he proves to the satisfaction of the Court—"
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: That is another sentence altogether. The hon. Member's Amendment deals with the certificate to be issued by the Board of Trade and he now asks me what the next sentence means:
    "unless he proves to the satisfaction of the Court that the reasons for non-oompliance were beyond his control."
    5.0 p.m.
    That is another question, to answer which, I think I should not be in order if I were to do more than say a word. If after the failure to comply with the provisions as to quota, the Board of Trade decline to give a certificate, then the renter has the right to go to the Court and attempt to prove to the satisfaction of the Court that the reasons for noncompliance are beyond his control.
    Mr. KELLY: I press the Amendment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not think the Solicitor-General has been quite ingenious in his reply.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am quite ingenious.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is quite clear, if the Solicitor-General's explanation be correct, that the addition of these words would make his intention all the clearer. If, on the other hand, the interpretation of the original words is somewhat doubtful, then the proposed words might be inserted to make clear the position of the renter. What is the exact position?
    "If in any such year a renter fails to comply with the requirements of this part of this Act as to the renters' quota he shall be guilty of an offence, unless such a certificate as is hereinafter been mentioned has been issued by the Board of Trade."
    That is to say, he is guilty unless, during the course of the year in which the offence has been committed, he has received a certificate from the Board of Trade. He cannot possibly know whether he is guilty or not until he makes up his annual returns. When he makes up his annual returns he will know whether he has been guilty or not. He will then apply to the Board of Trade for the certificate. I want to be quite certain that that will not be too late but will be in time u> assist him in his proof to the satisfaction of the Court.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I think I can satisfy the right hon. Gentleman, because if he will look at Clause 22,
    882
    Sub-section (2), to which I refer him, he will find that the only provision for the issue of a certificate by the Board of Trade is that the requirements as to the renters' quota have not been complied with. Therefore, the issue of the certificate awaits the discovery, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman quite correctly says, that the renters' quota has not been complied with.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: That is exactly what we discussed. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman was not present in Committee when we discussed Clause 22. Amendments were obtained to Clause 22 which were intended to meet that very point. We intended to enable either the exhibitors or the renters to make the application for the certificate which should save them from a prosecution before they had actually committed an offence. It was intended, if the price were too high or the quality too bad, that they should at once go to the Board of Trade and obtain a certificate before they had committed an offence; that they could still rectify their offence if the Board of Trade refused the certificate. It was pointed out that they were never certain as to whether they would get the certificate. They were to be put in the position of being potential criminals and would have to get a certificate in order to get them out of the hole. Obviously, the best way was to put the exhibitor or the renter in the position of applying for the certificate before the end of the year and before the return is made up and the lack of the quota created a crime. I am sorry the Solicitor-General was not present in Committee when Clause 22 was altered. We have put down Amendments to Clause 22 which I hope will make it clear what is the intention of the Government, unless Clause 22, and the Sub-section with which we are dealing now are mere camouflage and are not intended to be any safeguard to the renters or the exhibitors. If it be intended really to help these people to meet difficult cases both this Amendment and some such Amendment as is put down to Clause 22 ought to be inserted in the Bill. It is a very trifling alteration, but it may mean a great deal of difference to the people who come under the harrow of this new law. As the Clause reads at the present time, a man

    883
    is put in the absolutely false position of having to commit a crime and then having to try to get the crime excused. You really cannot intend to put people in that position. What you do want, and what everybody wants, I think, is that when a man shows that he is unfortunate and that he cannot get his quota because of the high price of the article he should be able to go to the Board of Trade and get his certificate without waiting until the end of the year when the crime is committed before making his application.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am not unwilling to respond to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's evident desire to understand this, but even from his point of view I should think that the words "has been" are right. The position he contemplates is where the renter, owing to the high price of the film, may not be able to fulfil the quota. He says:
    "I do not want to wait until the end of the period when I am a potential criminal, but I should like to get the certificate, so to speak, as I go along." Are not the words "has been" which are in the Bill the right words, because the Clause says he shall be guilty of an offence unless the certificate "has been" issued. From the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's point of view, I should think that the words "has been" are right. I am afraid that I cannot add anything to what I have already said.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am quite willing that the matter should be raised again when we cotne to Clause 22.
    Mr. KELLY: I shall press the Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 142; Noes, 237.

    Division No. 334.]

    AYES.

    [5.10 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hardle, George D.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Amnion, Charles George

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hayday, Arthur

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bllston)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Baker, Walter

    Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Barnes, A.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Batey, Joseph

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Snell, Harry

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Broad, F. A.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bromfield, William

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bromley, J.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kennedy, T,

    Sutton, J. E.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Kirkwood, D.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Cape, Thomas

    Lansbury, George

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Mlddlesbro, W)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Clowes, S.

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, w. (West Ham, Plalstow)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Compton, Joseph

    Lunn, William

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Connolly, M.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J, R.(Aberavon)

    Townend, A. E.

    Cove, W. G.

    Mackinder, W.

    Viant, S. P.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Dalton, Hugh

    MacNeill-Weir, L

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Webb, Rt. Hon Sidney

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Maxton, James

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Montague, Frederick

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Dennison, R.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Duncan, C

    Murnin, H.

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnlco, H

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    England, Colonel A.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Whltelev. W.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Owen, Major G.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Forrest, W.

    Palin, John Henry

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Paling, W.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gillett, George M.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenall, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Ritson, J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W. Bromwich)

    Wright, W.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Groves, T. Grundy, T. W.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Aibery, Irving James

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Fade, Sir Bertram G.

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrst'ld.)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Fieiden, E. B.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Perring, Sir William George

    Balniel, Lord

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Pilcher, G.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Gates, Percy

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Ramsden, E.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Goff Sir Park

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Bennett, A. J

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Grattan- Doyle, Sir N.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Berry, Sir George

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Bethel, A.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Ropner, Major L.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemonth)

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Sandon, Lord

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Savery, S. S.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Harland, A.

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Skelton, A. N.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Buchan, John

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.)

    Hurst, Gerald B.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Thorn. Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderlandi

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Christie, J. A.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Clayton, G. C.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Waddington, R.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Cope, Major William

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon, Sir Philip

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Couper, J. B.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Long, Major Eric

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Wells, S. R.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    White, Lieut. Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    McLean, Major A.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Dawson, Sir Phillp

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Meller, R. J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Drewe, C

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Major Sir George Hennessy and Mr.

    F. C. Thomson.

    Further Amendments made:
    In page 8, line 10, leave out the word "calendar."
    In line 13, leave out the word "calendar."—[Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister.]
    Mr. WALLHEAD: On a point of Order. I would call attention to the Amendment on page 8, line 7—at end, to insert the words
    "by reason of the fact that a valid application was not made in time due to non-completion of the film by the producer from whom he purchased."
    What is the reason that has not been called on?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): It is not one of the Amendments marked by Mr. Speaker.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 8, line 16, to leave out from the word "and" to the end of line 21, and to insert instead thereof the words
    "is registered after the expiration of the year in which it is so acquired, the film shall, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, be treated as if it had been acquired by the renter in the year in which it is registered."
    This is really in effect a drafting Amendment. The object of it is this. The intention of the Bill is that the film should count for the quota in its effective year, that is, in the year in which it was dealt with by the renter. The application for registration of a film might take place at the very end of a current year. The registration would be effective in the beginning of the subsequent year and obviously the renter would deal with the film in the subsequent year. The film ought therefore to count for the quota in the year in which it was dealt with and not in the year in which it applied for registration. This Amendment makes that plain.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think this Amendment makes the position worse for the renter. I dare say it may be necessary to make the position worse for the renter. The renter has to devise so that he has a stock quota of British films. He buys from the producer a long time before. Then the producer, as not infrequently happens in all ranges of production, is late and does not deliver on the date. It may be that the renter has bought that film for use in the year
    888
    1928. It is not delivered in 1928. It is delivered in 1929. When he was buying this film he naturally did so in order to buy 20 per cent. British films for that year, and now he does not get it in until the next year. It may be necessary to make an alteration, but I say it makes the position of the renter, which is intolerable enough, worse.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite wrong. If anybody buys a film for delivery one year and does not get it until the next, he can make application for registration in the first year, but he has got to be in possession of the film in order to complete his application. If he makes application at the end of one year, the application becomes a valid application on trade show. Suppose application to be made on the 28th March and the trade show to be on the 3rd April, then the validity of the application would date back from the 3rd April to the 28th March. Quite obviously, the last thing in the world the renter wants is to have the film set against his quota for the preceding year. He wants to deal with it in the current year, and unless this be put in he cannot do it.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 14.—(Power of small renters to combine.)
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 8, to leave out from the word "renters" in line 22, to the word "may" in line 25.
    Of all Clauses in this Bill, and they are all difficult to understand, this Clause is the worst. I undertake that, except two of us, not a soul in the House can understand Clause 14, and it is necessary that they should understand it. Clause 14 is going to help the renter. Make that quite clear first. The renter is a man who must be put on the quota. The renter and producer are very often one, and for the purpose of this Clause we can treat them as one. The renter-producer who makes his films in America has got somehow to acquire his quota films. In this Clause, if he is a small man, he can come to terms with British producers. They can club together, and he will provide the foreign film and the British producer the 20 per cent, quota of films. They would club together and come to certain financial arrangements.

    889
    They would be allowed to club the whole of their film acquisitions and if there are 20 per cent. British in the co-operative group they would be considered to have met the points of this Act. Of course, the same thing applies to renters. The Government are quite right in permitting the small renters to get together in order to pool their quota, and I want the House to observe, first of all, that it makes no earthly difference to the production of British films. British films are produced in exactly the same amount under this scheme as they would be if every single renter-producer had somehow to acquire British films. The 20 per cent, bought by renters as a whole are the same. What I am asking in this Amendment is that this grace granted to the small renter or small producer should be extended to all renters and all producers. They should all have power to pool.
    In the original Bill when it was being produced there was a Clause in it which allowed the British producer renter to sell to his foreign competitors any films on quota. That is to say, he would naturally produce more than 20 per cent, of British stuff, and the surplus over 20 per cent, he was allowed to sell as quota to other renters or producers. In the original Bill I think it was knocked out. I do not see now why we should not extend the grace of Clause 14 to all renter producers. That surely could not effect the actual production of British films. It merely puts large producers in the same position as the small producers; they will be able to club together and buy for the purpose of the quota. The only objection I can see to this co-operation of the various firms is one that applies equally well to the small producer renter as to the large one, and that is, that the man who has command of the British films, either as producer or renter can naturally extract his own terms from the people who come in the combine. He can say, "I can supply the essential element of British films. I will combine with you and you will pay me something in order to come into the combine, and this will then meet the provisions of Clause 14 and provide the full quota of British films." That is the objection. I do not know whether it has happened already, but it certainly will happen. You will get the small British renter producer going into a ring with foreign producers. You cannot get him to go in when he has
    890
    everything he needs, and other people want something from him. It is an objection which applies to the small producer. The Government accepted it in the case of the small producer and they might also accept it in the case of the large producer. The main point is that it makes no difference to the production of British films, and all we have to consider is which method is going to be most convenient for the trade as a whole and prevent the price of films being forced up owing to an artificial shortage?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I was almost going to ask your ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as to whether this Amendment is not out of order because it is inconsistent with what we have already passed in Clause 13. In the previous Clause we have provided that each renter shall acquire his quota. The object of this Amendment is to provide that individual renters need not acquire the quota. My first objection is that it is inconsistent with the principle already decided in Clause 13, which is that each renter shall acquire his own quota.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: In that case the whole of this Clause is inconsistent.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Clause 14 is drafted as a kind of mitigation of Clause 13, as it might be quite impossible for the small renter to comply with the quota. It is obvious that unless the renter deals with 12 films he would not be able to comply with the quota of 7½ per cent., and, therefore, there must be some relief granted in this Clause to those who will find it a physical impossibility to comply with the quota provision. Therefore, it becomes necessary to allow the small renter to make this combination. The strongest view was expressed in Committee against making the quota rights assignable. I admit that I had inserted a provision in the Bill that a maker-renter, who had more than his quota, might assign his surplus quota rights, but I withdrew the Clause in deference to the universally-expressed wish in Committee that no such right should be given and that all renters should be treated on an equality.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment which is on the

    891
    Order Paper, to insert at the end of this Clause the words
    "Provided that the Board of Trade shall not consent to such a combine where any of the parties to the combine have to make payments to other parties in the combine for the privilege of taking advantage of this section."
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will deal with that point later. As I have said, there was a strongly expressed desire in Committee that the quota should be personal to the renter and should not be assignable. The Amendment says in different terms what the Committee upstairs unanimously rejected. It makes the quota assignable provided people come together into a combine for that sole purpose. Then the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is rather inconsistent, because yesterday he kept pressing me to put nothing into the Bill which would allow the renters to combine. He expressed great anxiety because there would be a combination of makers and renters—
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Vertical trusts.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Vertical or horizontal. I appreciate the physical difference between the two, but the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was equally condemnatory of both classes of combines. To-day he has gone back on his appeal of yesterday and is asking us not only to permit but to encourage such trusts. For all these reasons, I see no good cause why we should vary the position in Clause 13. The right hon. and gallant Member has asked me to express an opinion on the Amendment standing in his name at the end of the Clause, which proposes that the Board of Trade should withhold its assent if any member of a syndicate formed for this purpose has paid a pecuniary consideration for joining the syndicate. All that I contemplate the Board of Trade will do is to satisfy itself that the renters are small renters or that there is one large renter and several small renters. On all other occasions the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has begged me not to put in restrictions which are unnecessary. I do not think it is a sound practice, in a case where people are permitted by this Bill to combine, to go into the whole of the trans-
    892
    action, which may be a perfectly voluntary one, and obviously would be a voluntary transaction, and say that because they have agreed that there shall be some consideration we are not going to allow them to do what the Act permits because they have agreed that there shall be a monetary payment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman realises that there will be payments for the assignment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: There may be payments or there may not. If it suits the parties no doubt there will be payments. My answer to his proposal is that unless he can show good cause why we should put restrictions on these combines I do not think we should put such restrictions into the Bill.
    Amendment negatived.

    CLAUSE 16.—(Prohibition of counting film more than once for quota purposes.)
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
    This Clause says that no British film shall be counted more than once for the purposes of the provisions of this Bill. That is to say, that no British film can count for quota twice. If one renter buys a British film for one part of the country and another renter buys the same film for other clients, then only one of these renters can count the film for the quota. The exhibitor who buys from the renter can count it for the quota in both cases. Renter A buys Madeline from Armentieres and sells it for his first round; renter B also buys Madeline from Armentieres for his round; every house that buys that film from renter A or renter B can count that particular film for the British quota. The renter cannot count it until the exhibitor exhibits the film. The exhibitor counts it whether he buys it from A or B; he has to show 20 per cent, of British films. Both A and B have to buy 20 per cent, of British films for the quota, but the film, Madeline from Armentieres, will count in the quota of renter A, but not in the case of renter B. If exhibitors only exhibit 20 per cent, then obviously every film acquired by a renter for his quota has to be bought by him. Every film shown by an exhibitor for quota has to be bought from the renter. The renter, therefore, will have to stock a far larger

    893
    number of British quota films than the exhibitors can consume. I hope I make myself clear; this is awfully difficult. The renter has to buy not only a quota of British films but other British films as well. They all count for quota to the exhibitors, but only some to the renters. The renter as well as the exhibitor has to show 20 per cent, of British films, and the result is that renters will not be able to sell all the quota films they have in stock. Obviously it means that renters will have to stock films which they cannot sell. But that is not all. Renters are required not merely to buy 20 per cent, of British films but to prove that they have sold them all. They have also to prove that they have been exhibited. It is no use for them to give them away with a pound of tea; they have to see that they are exhibited. What a horrible position for renters. The exhibitors cannot consume, and the renters are forced to deliver—it is like a problem in elementary arithmetic which cannot possibly be solved. But each side will do its best. Renters will try to get rid of their stock; exhibitors will try to exhibit them, and in the end both will become criminals tinder this Bill. That is the position as I see it if Clause 16 is left in. We were not allowed to discuss touchy points like this in Committee. They have to force people to show these films. I do not know how they are going to do it. A renter has to make two returns; first, what he intends doing and what he actually does—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Not under this Clause.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The difficulties of renters are coming in under this Clause. Then he has to make a second return, as to whether the quota was actually shown. All these difficulties arise. The poor old renter is going to have all this difficulty, and it is going to be enormously added to by this Clause, by which the right hon. Gentleman says that no British film shall count to more than one renter as a quota to British films. What are the arguments in favour of this Clause? What the exhibitors naturally like to see is the renter overstocked with everything, for the larger the stocks the larger the supply and, naturally, the lower the price. This Clause is in this Bill, I am certain, because the Cinematograph Exhibitors'
    894
    Association asked for it. As for the renters, I presume that, faced with this difficulty, they have allowed the right hon. Gentleman to have his way. After all, if people are practically compelled to break the law, probably nobody will be punished for breaking the law; but the House of Commons which leaves a Clause like this in an Act of Parliament, making it practically impossible for a small body in the community to carry out the wishes of Parliament as indicated in the previous Clauses of the same Measure, deserves to be dissolved. The right hon. Gentleman is faced with the problem of making the gallon measure hold more than four quarts. He may be right in thinking that it can be done, but in Committee the position was made even more impossible than it was before. There is not only the long and short film variation, but the fact that the exhibitor, under Clause 26, can count for quota a number of films which the renter cannot count. That makes it more impossible than ever for the renter to see that 20 per cent, of his quota films are actually shown in picture palaces in this country.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman, so far from allowing this Clause to pass sub silentio in Committee, delivered himself of two columns upon it, as I have just ascertained by looking up the Official Report; and I replied to him with about my usual quota of 12½ per cent. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman announced to the House that this is the worst Clause in the Bill. He then proceeded—I think for the first time—to read it, and, having read it, he proceeded to explain it, showing, in doing so, that whether he had just read it for the first or the second time, he certainly did not understand it. There is nothing in the Clause which compels the renter to acquire two sorts of films. Every British film rented will, in fact, count in the renter's quota provided somebody else has not previously acquired it. The right hon. Gentleman's argument was much more specious than real. As everyone acquainted with this trade knows, the renter first acquires the film and then proceeds to rent it out and he is the person who does business with that film; therefore, it is reasonable to say that a British film is only to count once with respect to the renter's quota. Otherwise

    895
    you would enable any set of foreign renters to use a single British film several times for quota purposes. Renter "A" would acquire it and count it for quota, even though he let it only to one person or perhaps not to anybody. He would pass it on to renter "B," who in turn would pass it on to renter "C," and so on, and you might have 50 renters claiming to satisfy the quota by the acquisition of one British film. That is the iniquity which Clause 16—regarded by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman as the most iniquitous Clause in this Bill—seeks to prevent. I leave the proposition to the House.
    Colonel DAY: I listened intently to the ingenious explanation of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. He explained to the House how a renter who acquires a film for one territory and uses it for quota—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, I did not deal with that case at all because it is dealt with in Clause 15 which we have just passed.
    Colonel DAY: The right hon. Gentleman has tried to explain to the House that one renter cannot pass a film on to another renter and if, as he says, the point has been dealt with in the previous Clause that is all the more reason why Clause 16 should be eliminated. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what is going to happen in a case where none of the exhibitors will take the film from the renter. The renter is placed in the position of buying the film for quota purposes but of not being able to count on it for quota purposes, if he is not successful in inducing exhibitors in that territory to make contracts with him for the exhibition of the film. That is a difficulty which perhaps the right hon. Gentleman has not foreseen. If he has, I am sure his explanation to the House will be awaited with interest. There are many films which a renter will take up thinking that they will be successful just as a trader will buy certain goods with the idea of reselling them. The trader is not sure however that the middlemen will purchase the goods from him and the renter has no guarantee that the exhibitors are going to take a particular film from him or that it will be possible to count it for quota purposes.
    Captain ARTHUR EVANS: I think the hon. Member who has just spoken is making a mountain out of a molehill. The exhibitor is bound under this Bill to purchase a certain percentage of British films and it is reasonable to suppose that, apart altogether from the films which are outside the quota, the renter has a reasonable prospect of disposing of the films which he rents for passing on to the exhibitor. If the renter is such a bad judge of films that he cannot dispose of his films in his own territory then he will soon go brankrupt, but I do not think there is any argument in the statement of the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Colonel Day).
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is most interesting to hear the President of the Board of Trade defending this Clause by pointing out how ridiculous the Bill would be without it. I agree with him but that is no reply to my argument that the Bill is ridiculous with the Clause in it.
    Mr. OLIVER STANLEY: On a point of Order. Has not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman already exceeded his quota?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I believe I am entitled to reply.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has moved the Amendment now before the House and that is specifically provided for in the case of a Bill that has come from a Standing Committee.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman did not make the slightest attempt to point out the fallacy in the provisions of this Bill with Clause 16 in it. You cannot, as I have said, put a quart into a pint pot. It may be ridiculous to leave out Clause 16, but, if you retain it, you are still in the impossible position of forcing the renters not only to buy but to exhibit a quota of British films when the supply of British films which have to be shown is greater than the exhibitors will take. The position can only be met in one way and that is by the renters inducing the exhibitors in some way to show more than their 20 per cent, quota. They may induce them to do so by selling the films at a lower price, but I ask the House to observe that although this is supposed to be a Bill which insists on the exhibition

    897
    of 20 per cent, of British films it is really far more than that. We do not know how much more it will be, but it will be more than 20 per cent, because 20 per cent, is the proportion that the renters will have to insist upon being shown and, as no British film can be counted twice for the renters quota, obviously more than 20 per cent, must be shown in order to meet the requirements of the Bill so far as the renters are concerned. The right hon. Gentleman said the difficulty had been met in Clause 15, but it is by no means met there. That Clause deals with specially selected cases where one renter habitually rents in one locality only. In that case he can count his British films for quota in that locality only. There are very few renters who confine their operations to one locality and that provision by no means touches the greater part of the country where different renters will acquire a popular film, but only one of them will acquire the quota rights with it. Presumably he will have to pay more on that account.
    Mr. BECKETT: I am very glad that the President of the Board of Trade has told the House, quite frankly, that his quota of reply to our argument has been 12½ per cent., although I think that figure is a considerable over-estimate of the arguments with which we were favoured by the right hon. Gentleman in Committee and during this stage of the Bill's progress. We are indebted to the hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff (Captain A. Evans) for his attempt to step in where his chief failed to act, but I suggest that the hon. and gallant Member's argument does not meet the case. It would meet the case if films as they were manufactured were taken by one renter and distributed to a stable clientele—the same renter always supplying the same exhibitors—and if the industry were in a fixed condition of that sort. But we are dealing here with one of the most liquid industries in the country.
    Captain A. EVANS: Is it not true to say as was said only a moment ago that each renter deals with a particular territory?
    Colonel DAY: Not always.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. BECKETT: I do not think that is by any means an invariable rule, but
    898
    although the interpolation is not, I believe, correct, I will accept it for the purposes of argument. Even if it were true that a renter always dealt in a particular territory with a particular number of exhibitors, you would still have to face the fact that in the industry there is a very large number of renters who do not take a picture direct from the producers and pay a cheque down for it. What they do is to pencil a picture, very often before it is fully completed, or immediately after the trade show, and when they have pencilled the picture, they sound their clientele to see whether they are likely to have a market for it if they buy it. If their inquiries go to show that it will be a saleable picture, they place the order with the producer, and the picture, when it is bought in that way, becomes no doubt a part of their quota, but all the time during which they are pencilling and speculating they have the difficulty to contend with that they do not know if they will buy it or not, and so they cannot lay their plans ahead, for fear of not having a sufficient quota of British pictures.
    A further difficulty is this, that a certain class of renter takes a picture and distributes it to what are known as No. 1 picture palaces, the bigger houses, which have the first general release, and which take what may be called the cream of the pictures—the big super-cinemas, which charge more for their seats than the ordinary houses; but he deals only with these No. 1 picture houses. There are, in addition, the No. 2 houses, which come a little below the generally accepted standard of a first-class super-house; and there are the No. 3 houses, and, finally, all the odd people in small villages and towns who have shops and converted barns and so on. If we leave Clause 16 in this Bill, as far as one particular picture is concerned, apart from a tightening-up and a lack of the necessary elasticity, the renter who takes the No. 1 pictures will be all right, but what will happen to the smaller men? They have to have this picture for sale; they have to supply their exhibitors with it, and yet they cannot, if Clause 16 remains in the Bill, count it with their quota, when Clause 16 distinctly says it shall not
    "be counted for the purposes aforesaid by more than one renter."

    899
    Another interesting point comes in where you have a picture going the rounds, a picture that is popular, and after it has become more or less stale to the public and has been to the No. 1 super-cinemas and down to the No. 12 country barns, it is withdrawn from exhibition. It is left for some little time, and then somebody says, just as publishers say when they think of bringing out a new edition of a book, or just as stage managers say who think of reviving a play: "That film made us a lot of money, it is a good classical piece, and with a little touching tip we can sell it." They touch up the film, and they cut it, and they may even shoot a few fresh scenes, or alter the plot of the story. Cases have been known where a film has been a failure with one kind of ending, where they have substituted the conventional, orange-blossom, happy ending and have got a successful film out of what has seemed to be a failure. This film is brought up to the public and given these touches, to bring
    it up to date or to satisfy public opinion in some small way. What will happen to the renter who takes that film? Will it be counted to his quota? I can see sitting opposite several members of the legal profession, and I am quite certain that, if I were a renter, and I chose five members of the legal profession who were also Conservative Members of Parliament, and went to them and said: "Please tell me under this Bill how I stand," I would get at least three different opinions from those five lawyers; and if that be the case among lawyers, who at any rate are united or supposed to be united in their political opinions, what would be the case when you threw at a renter a Clause like this, in the most complicated Bill ever introduced for an industry to deal with, and gave him a compulsory quota under all sorts of pains and penalties?
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 143.

    Division No. 335.]

    AYES.

    [6.7 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Albery, Irving James

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Allan, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Campbell, E. T.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Fielden, E. B.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. s.)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Attor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Bainiel, Lord

    Christie, J. A.

    Gates, Percy.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Churchman, Sir Arthur C

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Goff Sir Park

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Cockerill, Brig.-General sir George

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Grace, John

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Cope, Major William

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Couper, J. B.

    Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Berry, Sir George

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Bethel, A.

    Croft, Brigadier-General sir H.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W R., Skipton)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Galnsbro)

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Harland, A.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset. Yeovil)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Haslam, Henry C

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Brings, J. Harold

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Headlam. Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Drewe, C.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C (Berks, Newb'y)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Buchan, John

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Styles, Captain H. Waiter

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Penny, Frederick George

    Templeton, W. P.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Pilcher, G.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Ramsden, E.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon, Sir Philip

    Remnant, Sir James

    Waddington, R.

    Little, Or. E. Graham

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull>

    Loder, J. de V.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Long, Major Eric

    Ropner, Major L.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Wells, S. R.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Sandon, Lord

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Savery, S. S.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    McLean, Major A.

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Winby, Colonel L. P.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Shaw. R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Withers, John James

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Meller, R. J.

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Skelton, A. N.

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & K'nc'dine.C.)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Mitchell. W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Captain Viscount Curzon and

    Captain Margesson.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    England, Colonel A.

    Lee, F.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Fenby, T. D.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Forrest, W.

    Lowth, T.

    Amnion, Charles George

    Gardner, J. P.

    Lunn, William

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Mackinder, W.

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Gillett, George M.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Baker, Walter

    Gosling, Harry

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    March, S.

    Batey, Joseph

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Maxton, James

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Greenall, T.

    Montague, Frederick

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Murnin, H.

    Broad, F. A.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Bromfield, William

    Groves, T.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Bromley, J.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Owen, Major G.

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Palin, John Henry

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Paling, W.

    Buchanan, G.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigen)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Hardie, George D.

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Cape, Thomas

    Harney, E. A.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Charleton, H. C.

    Hartshorn. Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Potts, John S.

    Clowes, S.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Ritson, J.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Compton, Joseph

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Connolly, M.

    Hore-Beilsha, Leslie

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Cove, W. G.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Dalton, Hugh

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Kelly, W. T.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Dennison, R.

    Kennedy, T.

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Duncan, C.

    Klikwood, D.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Dunnico, H.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Snell, Harry

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Lawson, John James

    Sncwden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    902

    903

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Varley, Frank B.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Viant, S. P.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wailhead, Richard C.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

    Sullivan, J.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Wright, W.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Thurtie, Ernest

    Westwood, J.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Townend, A. E.

    Whiteley, W.

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. B. Smith.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Captain DRUMMOND MACDONALD: I beg to move, in page 9, line 13, at the end, to insert the words
    "Provided that, if a renter in any year acquires any old British films and also acquires old foreign films, he shall be entitled to count the old British films for the purposes of the renter's quota—
    (a) if the only films acquired by him during the year are old films; or
    (b) if he has acquired films other than old films during the year and the requirements of this Part of this Act as to renter's quota would have been satisfied as respects those other films had they been the only films acquired by him during the year.
    For the purposes of this proviso the expression 'old' in relation to a film, means acquired by a renter not less than one year after the close of the year in which it was acquired by another renter."
    The object of this Amendment is to allow British films to rank for quota against second-hand foreign films. As the House knows, the cinema plays an important part in the rural life of the people, and the small renters who keep the cinemas in the villages exist by renting second-hand films. As this Clause now stands, they will be obliged to obtain 20 per cent, of new British films against 80 per cent, of foreign films, and the object of my Amendment is to allow second-hand British films to rank for quota against the second-hand foreign films. I do urge upon the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment in the interests of these small renters who would be forced out of business and would be unable to obtain the 20 per cent, of British films.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think my hon. and gallant Friend has found a flaw in the Bill which has escaped the alert eye of the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Colonel Day), and I accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 17.—(Prohibition against carrying on business of renter unless licensed.)
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 9, line 16, to leave out the word "forty" and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty-eight."
    This carries out the undertaking I gave yesterday.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I beg to move, in page 9, line 23, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(2) No film to which this Act applies shall, during the period aforesaid, be exhibited to the public in Great Britain unless—
    (a) the film has been acquired by the exhibitor from a person entitled to carry on such business as aforesaid; or
    (b) the exhibitor is himself a person who is entitled to carry on such business as aforesaid and has acquired the film for the purpose of renting it for public exhibition in Great Britain."
    This is to provide that no film is to be exhibited in Great Britain, unless it has been acquired from a person who may carry on business, and who does carry on business in accordance with the foregoing provisions, or unless the exhibitor is himself such a person, that is to say, a licensed renter. Some criticisms were directed to the Clause as it stands in Committee on the ground that anybody may, for instance, by having his business in Dublin or in America, drive, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) said, a horse and cart through the provisions of the Bill with reference to the renter's quota. If these words are inserted, it will prevent the unlicensed renter from carrying on his business from America or from Dublin, and nobody may exhibit a. film which has been acquired from such a person. A little criticism was directed to the President of the Board of Trade's promise that some Amendment should be in-

    905
    serted in the Bill stopping up the hole which some hon. Members opposite thought they had found. I venture to think this Amendment will be effective for its purpose.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I think the general object of the Amendment does meet the case which was put in Committee, but we are in rather a difficulty, and I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on the matter. The latter part of the Amendment refers to the exhibitor. Later on, we have an Amendment to leave out Clause 20, and it seems to me rather difficult for us to discuss this, because it may possibly be ruled that if this Amendment is put in in Clause 17 we shall be precluded from discussing on Clause 20 whether or not it is necessary for the exhibitor who is engaged in the business actually to be licensed.
    Mr. E. BROWN: I also have an Amendment dealing with the same point.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think the insertion of this Amendment will exclude a Motion to leave out Clause 20.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I beg to move, in page 9, line 24, after the word "aforesaid," to insert the words "or exhibits any film."
    This is a consequential Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. KELLY: I beg to move, in page 9, to leave out from the word "pounds" in line 27, to the end of line 28.
    It has been a little difficult to understand why the Government insist upon those who are engaged in the renting of films to go to the trouble of being licensed. In fact this licensing is becoming so extensive that it will not be long, if a Conservative Government lasts in this country, before everyone will have to carry a licence about with him for every business or occupation in which he is engaged. They have now decided that the people who are engaged in renting films must be licensed, and in the event of an oversight in not having, this licence there is another crime invented by the Government, a crime so serious that they say it can only be met by a penalty of something about £20 per day. What is this crime that should demand such an excessive penalty? The crime of rent-
    906
    ing out to exhibitors films that they desire to show, and if they have offended so seriously against this country as to rent out a film, then the Government say, "We shall penalise you to the extent of £20 a day." I do not know what would be said if they endeavoured to carry this into the motoring world and suggested that the motorist, when he overlooked the taking out of his licence, should be penalised to the extent of £20 a day. I think that the Government Benches would be crowded at this moment in the determination to have an Act amended that imposed such a penalty. I could even imagine some of my colleagues resenting such a penalty for not having a licence for driving a motor. It might be that even if retailers were compelled to take out a licence—and that is not very far removed from the minds of this Government—they might even rise up in their wrath against a £20 a day fine for being without their licence; but here these renters, who are engaged in a business that is quite legitimate, are to be told that unless they carry this licence they are going to be penalised to the extent of £20 a day. I hope the good sense of the House will support us in this Amendment and reduce this penalty.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I really am amazed to find how the Members of the Conservative party will strain at gnats and at the same time be willing to swallow camels. Constantly we are told that the object of the Labour party is to interfere with industry, is to extend the functions of the policemen, and of those people who are supposed to represent officialdom and bureaucracy over not only the industrial life, but the personal lives of the nation. That is a stock-in-trade argument against the Labour party. Here we have a Bill which interferes with the management of a particular industry—and it is indicative of the type of mind of the Conservative party when it suits their purpose— which interferes in a way that is more objectionable than any kind of Socialism could possibly be. I second this Amendment, not because I do not believe in interfering with industry—I think that is very necessary at times—but I object altogether to the type of interference that is represented by this Bill. That type of interference is interference with individual liberty, the kind of inter-

    907
    ference which will not occur in Socialism at all, and it is very characteristic of the industrial and commercial policy of a Conservative party for the simple reason that vested interests are at the back of Bills of this character.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): I am sure that human nature under Socialism will be what it is to-day, and penalties for failure to carry out the law will be as necessary as they are now. This is a very important Clause in the Bill. It is one of the chief Clauses, and the failure to carry out the provisions of the Bill should be subject to a substantial penalty. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said the penalty was £20. That is not so. The fine is a maximum penalty, and the fine that will be imposed will be in the discretion of the Court. I am sorry I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I hope the Parliamentary Secretary on reflection will consider that there is no case for the retention of the words. It is open to any citizen under the Bill to get a licence. The licence does not cost more than £5 and, obviously, therefore, it is altogether out of proportion to suggest that you should have a penalty as a maximum of £20 for every day during which the offence is committed. If the Government want to make the Bill watertight, I suppose it is only because they are afraid there might be some exploitation by foreign interests, who might get a good deal of money by trying to get behind the Bill. But surely if there were any move to exploit the Bill in order to make large profits, the very first thing anyone would do would be to get a licence, seeing that it costs no more than £5. Therefore, it is inconceivable that a failure to take out a licence under this Clause should be due to any other reason than mere forgetfulness, and it is ridiculous to suggest that for forgetfulness a British subject should be fined up to £20 per day during every day of the period which he forgets. That is the real reason why we have put down this Amendment. It is perfectly true, as an hon. Member has said, that we object altogether to the principle of the Clause in regard to these licences; but if there are to be licences it is not reasonable to
    908
    impose such an enormous penalty for mere forgetfulness. In view of the last Amendment to this Clause which the Government carried, bringing the exhibitor into the structure of a Clause which is supposed to deal entirely with renters, I would like the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is able to reply, and, if he is not, I would like the President, to tell me whether this penalty is to be applied to both the renter and the exhibitor. I take this opportunity of raising that point on this Amendment, so that our attitude to this matter on a subsequent Clause may be determined.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: If the hon. Member will look at the Bill he will find that under Clause 20 a similar penalty is to be applied to the exhibitor.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: But what I want especially to know, in view of the Amendment carried only a few minutes ago, is whether the penalties under this Clause 17 will apply to the exhibitor, seeing that the whole structure of the Clause deals with renters' licences. I think we ought to have an answer to that point now.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Before the President of the Board of Trade replies, he might listen to the Amendment which has been proposed. I understood he was prepared to meet us on this point, and I was astounded to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that he could not do so. Let the House understand the position. It is a question of whether a man who has not got a licence, which he can get at a moment's notice, at any time, by paying £5—whether a man who has forgotten to take out a licence or to renew a licence is to be liable to this gigantic penalty of £20 a day for every day he forgets. As a matter of fact, there is only one reason for asking these people to take out licences at all. The Government could make a renter subject to all these penalties without requiring him to take out a licence; and I would point out that, though he offend against this Bill, though he break the law in every particular, he still cannot lose his licence. There is only one reason why these licences have been introduced, and that is to secure revenue for the right hon. Gentleman's new Government Department.

    909
    Other people have to take out licences for motor cars. Anybody who likes can get a licence for a motor car by paying a certain sum, just as anyone can get a licence as a renter by paying a certain sum. They are on a par. Can we conceive of a man who forgets to renew his motor car licence being fined £20 a day? Most benches of magistrates, including the one which I have the honour to grace, generally give motorists a few days' grace, sometimes seven days. If they forget for seven days they are not punished—and quite right too—for what is mere forgetfulness. And even a person who is summoned for not having a licence or for having forgotten it, who is a month behindhand, is not mulcted in a very heavy fine. It may be £l or £2; sometimes, possibly, £5 in the case of some benches. At any rate, the penalties are moderate and are suited to the offence, if I may put it so. Under this Clause a man who forgets for only one week to take out a licence is fined £140. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense!" "He may be."] He is liable to a penalty of £20. If that figure is put in the Bill and allowed to remain, will it not be an indication to any bench of magistrates that the man is regarded as having committed a heinous offence, whereas it is pure forgetfulness?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is misleading either himself or the House. There may be instances of pure forgetfulness in which, probably, no prosecution would take place, and if there were a prosecution, the bench would deal most leniently with the offender. The Committee were rightly insistent that provisions should be included in the Act requiring every foreigner to carry on business here and to be licensed if he carried on business here, and, if he wilfully failed to comply with those provisions, he was to be subject to a severe fine.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Really, the right hon. Gentleman is misleading the House, deliberately misleading the House. This is a penalty for not taking out a licence. Anybody, whether he be a foreigner or not, can take out a licence for £5 at five minutes' notice. [Interrup-
    910
    tion.] I am talking about the renter— or the exhibitor, who is now by some hocus pocus being brought into the renters' part of the Bill—being subject to this penalty for a mere act of forgetfulness. If he knows he will be committing an offence under the Act, why does he not take out a licence at once? There is nothing to stop a man taking out a licence, although he may have broken the law in a hundred ways, and if he remembers that there is a fine like this on the Statute Book he will do his best to remember. You cannot stop him taking out a licence. The only danger of a renter laying himself open to such a fine will arise from his forgetfulness. No other reason will apply, because anybody can get a licence. Hon. Members appear to think this licence is something which it would be extraordinarily difficult to obtain, and that it would not be possible for a man to obtain a licence who wanted to break the law or who had broken the law. It is possible for anybody to take out a licence, and, therefore, if a man has not taken out a licence it can only be from forgetfulness, and yet he is to be fined £140 per week and £600 per month—for pure forgetfulness! The right hon. Gentleman told us at the beginning of the Report stage that he was going to scale down these ferocious penalties.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I never offered to scale this one down. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would only read the Bill upon which he is so eloquent, he would see that in Clause 24 we have purposely laid down—I think upon his advice—that a foreigner must have a place of business in this country in order to take out a licence. It is that type of case to which this maximum penalty is directed. If this penalty were not in the Clause—and a severe penalty —the foreign renter who wished to impose upon the exhibitor would be able to carry on his work. Clause 24 says that in order to have a licence he must have a place within the jurisdiction of the courts here, a place where process can be served. If, in defiance of that, anyone attempts to carry on business and to keep outside the jurisdiction of this country he ought to be fined, and it ought to be a serious fine, and I hope the House will retain the penalty.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman is trying to find an excuse for what is not in the Bill. The words in the Bill are
    "If any person carries on such business as aforesaid."
    We have included the exhibitor in this Clause. I forget what he does. Take the case of an exhibitor who has acquired a film for public exhibition in Great Britain. The exhibitor cannot possibly—[Interruption.] If this fine is directed against American citizens because they are American, at any rate the President might spare the Englishman who happens to own a cinema and is generally a small, poor business man. These exhibitors are to be subject to this fine. The fine is applicable, not only to the class of case to which the President referred, but to an exhibitor whose place of business must be in this country, because it is a cinema, and who is an Englishman and not an American. Why should they be subject to these ferocious penalties—ordinary, plain honourable Englishmen who have merely forgotten to renew their licence? The Government are ramming through a Bill they do not understand. They allow penalties to be drafted not by their own Department but by the trade and put them in. Without compairing them with other Government Acts, without any co-ordination, they accept the penalty blindly, and when attention is called to the fact that no other Act of Parliament provides penalties so frightfully heavy as this they say, "What nonsense! It is only for Americans."
    Mr. MITCHELL BANKS: I find it somewhat difficult to follow the reasoning of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). It seems to be this, that the easier it is to comply with the law the more lightly you should be let off if you break it. I should think it ought to be quite the other way round. There would be some reason for imposing a light penalty if there were great difficulties in the way of complying with the law. There are some religious communities which believe in everlasting punishment, and the only thing that can reconcile one to that belief is that these same religious bodies provide a very easy way of escaping. An hon. Member opposite has drawn an analogy, which subsequent
    912
    speakers have enlarged upon, between the licence which a renter is to take out under this Bill and the licence which a motorist takes out. It is said that because a motorist who neglects to take out his licence is not ferociously punished the renter of a film who fails to comply with this law should not be ferociously punished. There is no analogy whatever between the two cases. By his infraction of the law the motorist does not, as a rule, make a considerable sum of money every day and every week. The reason why a heavy penalty is imposed upon the renter of a film who does not comply with this law is because he is obviously not in business for his health and will make a handsome profit through not taking out a licence. As for the ferocity of the fine, we feel perfectly sure that benches of magistrates, who are nearly all animated by the same humanity so constantly exhibited towards motorists by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, will not be savage in their penalties upon innocent and honourable Englishmen who have been subject to a slight lapse of memory; but it is perfectly right, where a man refuses to take out a licence and continues making profits daily and weekly by his breach of the law, that the penalty should mount up as the offence continues.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I am at a loss to understand the logic of the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks). He stated that my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) suggested that because a licence fee was small, that was a reason why the fine for not taking out the licence ought to be small. The original fine of £20 is clearly very formidable, and there can be no sort of justification on the part of any individual who deliberately places himself in a position in which he may be fined £20 when that risk can be obviated by the payment of £5 for a licence. I do not follow the argument of the hon. and learned Member for Swindon when he attempts to make sport out of that position. May I put this as a possible case. A person applies for a licence which may not be granted for a week. He can continue to rent films and he does not come under Clause 17. In case this person for some unavoidable reason omitted to make his application for a licence until two days after the expiration of his first licence, and he immediately made an

    913
    application for the licence after the expiration of two days, what would be his position? Would he be liable to penalties amounting to £40 because, unintentionally, he had failed for two days to take out his licence?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: In that case the man would be guilty of a technical offence, and if he were prosecuted no doubt the magistrate would inflict a purely nominal penalty.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In various parts of the country in one police court you may find one interpretation placed upon this Clause, while in another part a totally different interpretation might be placed upon it as a mere technical indiscretion. I suggest that whatever the presiding
    magistrate may think about what is a technical indiscretion or offence, the words of this Clause are very definite and clear, and they state that for each day on which a man omits to take out his licence he is culpable to the extent of £20 a day. As there seems to be no justifiable excuse for assuming that an individual would take this risk, it seems to me that only in the case where forget-fulness was the explanation an offence would be committed.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 139.

    Division No 336.]

    AYES.

    [6.50 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Harland, A.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Albery, Irving James

    Copt, Major William

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Couper, J. B.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Balniel, Lord

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hilton, Cecil

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hopkins. J. W. W.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Drewe, C.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N).

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Berry, Sir George

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Bethel, A.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Betterton, Henry B.

    England, Colonel A.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Fermoy, Lord

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Fielden, E. B.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Forrest, W.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Foster, Sir Harry S

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Buchan, John

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon, Sir Philip

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Gates, Percy

    Loder, J. de V.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Long, Major Eric

    Campbell, E. T.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Cassels, J. D.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Grace, John

    Lumley, L. R.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Christie, J. A.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    McLean, Major A.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Ropner, Major L.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Meller, R. J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Mitchell. W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Sandon, Lord

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Waddington, R.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Savery, S. S.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Nicholson, o. (Westminster)

    Simms, Or. John M. (Co. Down)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Skelton, A. N.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Wells, S. R.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Smithers, Waldron

    White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

    Penny, Frederick George

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Perring, Sir William George

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Pilcher, G.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Withers, John James

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Radford, E. A.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Ramsden, E.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Remnant, Sir James

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Colonel Gibbs and Captain Mar-

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Tasker, R. Inlgo.

    gesson.

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lane, Stretford)

    Templeton, W. P.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hardle, George D.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Amnion, Charles George

    Harney, E. A.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bllston)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Baker, Walter

    Hayes, John Henry

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Henderson. Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Snell, Harry

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillp

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Broad, F. A.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bromfield, William

    Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bromley, J.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Stewart. J. (St. Rollox)

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Buchanan, G.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Kelly, W. T.

    Taylor. R. A.

    Cape, Thomas

    Kennedy, T.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbre, W.)

    Clowes, S.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawson, John James

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lee, F.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Compton, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Townend, A. E.

    Connolly, M.

    Livingstone, A. M

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lowth, T.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lunn, William

    Viant, S. P.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Mackinder, W.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Dennison, R.

    March, S.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Duncan, C.

    Maxton, James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Dunnico, H.

    Montague, Frederick

    Welsh, J. C.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Westwood, J.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Murnin, H.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wiggins. William Martin

    Gillett, George M.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Gosling, Harry

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Greenall, T.

    Paling, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H (Llanelly)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Potts, John S.

    Wright, W.

    Groves, T.

    Ritson, J.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. B. Smith.

    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 9, line 28, at the end, to insert the words "or exhibits the film as the case may be."
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: It is suggested now that exhibitors should be brought within the purpose of Clause 17, which deals with renters' licences. It may be that an exhibitor may enter into a contract with a foreign renter who has not taken out a licence, and I should think that the proper place to deal with that matter would be in connection with the exhibitors' Clause. I think this Amendment and the other Amendments which have been carried leave us now with a very poorly drafted Clause. I am not so sure that the Clause now secures the object which the President of the Board of Trade has in view.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: This Amendment is consequential upon the Amendment which has been moved by the Solicitor-General. Obviously, it is more convenient to insert the penalty after the offence.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 18.—(Returns and records.)
    Colonel DAY: I beg to move, in page 10, line 6, to leave out Sub-section (3).
    7.0 p.m.
    I think it is understood, at any rate by all Members on this side of the House, that this Sub-section is quite unnecessary, and, perhaps, without taking up time in discussion, the President of the Board of Trade will let us know whether he agrees with that.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: This is a most necessary Sub-section, and I should have thought it would have commanded general assent. The House has already assented to the proposition that films acquired by a renter must be acquired by him bona fide for the purpose of renting, and that he should not acquire what are vulgarly described as "dud" films in order to get them into his portfolio but without any intention of using them. That would not be a genuine compliance with the quota. What is the fair test to apply as to whether films have been acquired by the renter in the bona fide course of his business as a renter?
    918
    Surely, the best test to apply is to see whether he has kept those films on his shelf or whether he has made a genuine attempt to get them shown, and we get the evidence of that from the contracts into which he has entered.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I am afraid that the reply of the President of the Board of Trade does not convince us at all. It has been pointed out again and again, in the discussions on this Clause, that it is quite possible that the renter might be actually unable to sell—or to rent, as the President puts it—all the films he has acquired as part of his quota, and this Sub-section will be used against him as a penalty, not for keeping them on his shelf, as the President suggests, but for really being unable to dispose of some of the British films he has taken in the hope that he will be able to complete his quota from those purchases. That seems to us to be very unfair, and that is the reason why we ask for the omission of this Sub-section. This point is one of considerable substance. The President of the Board of Trade has spoken to-day about the quality of British films produced this year. Already some little information has been given to me about some of them. I do not want to specify them by name, because I do not want to damage any particular interest; I do not think that that would be fair; but I have very adverse reports upon some of them. It may be that certain renters have acquired exclusive quota rights in the best films, while other renters, who know that they have to comply with a certain quota, have to do with other films, and at the end find that they are not able to dispose of them. Then this Subsection will be used in order to punish a man, not for trying to evade the Act, but for being unable to sell British films which he has purchased with a view to being able to rent them.
    Captain A. EVANS: I think the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) has overlooked the fact that in some cases renters are exhibitors themselves. For instance, we have big theatres in London which rent films direct from the manufacturers, and it may pay those exhibitors, although for the purposes of this Bill they may be known as renters, to acquire second-rate British films and put them on the shelf, in order that some American or other feature film

    919
    may be put on which they may think may benefit them at the box office.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: Surely, the purpose of this Bill is the protection of the British film industry, and, if the films are sold to the renter and are put on the shelf because they cannot be or are not intended to be re-sold, the purpose has been achieved. I take it that the President of the Board of Trade is not going to suggest that the House of Commons, in passing a Measure of this kind, is really out to force people to see British films or any other particular kind of films. There is no æsthetic purpose; the Measure is the commercial one of encouraging the production of British films; and, surely, the encouragement is there if they are purchased, even if they are not exhibited. It seems to me, therefore, that the proposal to delete this Sub-section is quite reasonable.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is a good deal more than reasonable. It seems to me that it is the only thing that can possibly save the Government's face, and that is more than reasonable. You are asking the renter to prove that he has sold the goods. You are making the renter take 20 per cent., and a good deal more, because we know that a British film cannot count twice; and then you
    are saying to him, "You must prove that you have had this shown," although it is already provided in the Bill that the exhibitor is only to have 20 per cent. How can the exhibitors, if they stick to 20 per cent., possibly show all that the renter has provided? It is a physical impossibility. Of course, it goes into the Bill, because, I suppose, somebody wanted it, and somebody said: "You must not be mercenary. We are not a materialist party; we are an Imperial party, and think that way. It is not a question merely of producing British films; you have to make this Philistine British population look at the things, too." You are not satisfied with the renter buying them; he has to prove that they were shown, and not only shown, but shown at the right hours, when the house is full and people cannot get away from them. Of course, the Government put that in the Bill, and it is this Subsection that makes it valuable. They will not take it out; they insist that the renter shall not only prove that he has bought the film, but has sold it for honest money and made people look at it.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 256: Noes, 135.

    Division No. 337.]

    AYES.

    [7.9 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Buchan, John

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Dawson, Sir Phillip

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Drewe, C.

    Applin, Col. R. V. K.

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Cayzer, Ma]. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth. S.)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Cazaiet, Captain Victor A.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Christie, J. A.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

    Clayton, G. C.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Bennett, A. J.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Berry, Sir George

    Cooper, A. Duff

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Bethel, A.

    Cope, Major William

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Couper, J. B.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

    Gates, Percy

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Goff, Sir Park

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Grace, John

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Cunilffe, Sir Herbert

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Dalkeith, Earl ol

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Grotrian, H. Brent.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    McLean, Major A.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Hammersley, S. S.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Harland, A.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Meller, R. J.

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Tasker, R. Inigo.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Templeton, W. P.

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Perring, Sir William George

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Ilifte, Sir Edward M.

    Pilcher, G.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Pllditch, Sir Philip

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Waddington, R.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Radford, E. A.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Ramsden, E.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Held, D. D. (County Down)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Remer, J. R.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Remnant, Sir James

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Wells, S. R.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sar'y, Ch'ts'y)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Lane Fox, col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Lister, Cunilffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Rye, F. G.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Long, Major Eric

    Salmon, Major I.

    Withers, John James

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Wolmer. Viscount

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Sandon, Lord

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Savery, S. S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

    Margesson.

    Maclntyre, I.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hirst, G. H.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Dennison, R.

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Duncan. C.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Dunnico, H.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Baker, Walter

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    England, Colonel A.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Fenby, T. D.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Forrest, W.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Broad, F. A.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Kennedy, T.

    Bromfield, William

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Kirkwood, D.

    Bromley, J.

    Gillett, George M.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Brown, Ernest (Leith)

    Gosling, Harry

    Lawson, John James

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Lee, F.

    Buchanan, G.

    Greenall, T.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Livingstone, A. M

    Cape, Thomas

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Lowth, T.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Lunn, William

    Clowes, S.

    Groves, T.

    Mackinder, W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Compton, Joseph

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    March, S.

    Connolly, M.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Maxton, James

    Cove, W. G.

    Hardle, George D.

    Montague, Frederick

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hayday, Arthur

    Murnin, H.

    922

    923

    Oliver, George Harold

    Snell, Harry

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D.(Rhondda)

    Owen, Major G.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Palln, John Henry

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Paling, W.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Welsh, J. C.

    Potts, John S.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Westwood, J.

    Ritson, J.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Sullivan, J.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Sutton, J. E.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Scurr, John

    Thomson, Treveiyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Townend, A. E.

    Wright, W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Smillie, Robert

    Viant, S. P.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —

    Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Whiteley.

    CLAUSE 19.—(Provisions as to exhibitors' quota.)
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
    This Clause is designed for the purpose of compelling exhibitors to show British films whether they desire to do so or not, whether there is a demand on the part of their patrons or not. It is entirely unnecessary, and it does not advance the cause which the Bill is supposed to have at heart. The quota has already been established by the renters, and the producers ought to be satisfied without compelling the exhibitors to exhibit whether they want to or not. If the producers cannot produce films that the exhibitors will exhibit to the public, then these films ought not to be forced upon them. The amazing thing is that we are attempting to foster this film business because the Conservative party want to make a pretence that they are very busy. Our film producers have failed to produce the films the public requires. Yet our history is the finest in the world and full of dramatic incidents, while our dramatists and novelists have been as prolific as any in the world. Their work is characterised by rich imagination. Yet the British producers have failed to take advantage' of the rich material lying ready to their hands. Having allowed other people to go in and do the work which they should have done, we are now to compel exhibitors to show "dud stuff," as it has been so eloquently described. When once the producers have satisfied their demands that the renters shall take their quota and when they have got the plunder which some of them desire, I do not see why exhibitors should have foisted upon them stories such as that of Sweeny Todd, the homicidal barber. I understand that some of the films produced are of that
    924
    type or such as "Maria Marten or the Murder in the Bed Barn." The President of the Board of Trade is not insisting on any aesthetic qualities in these films. Anything that can be produced will do. I should not be surprised if they do not soon have some anti-Bolshevist propaganda produced on the films. The principal point, however, which I wish to make is that the quota has been passed and that the producers are protected by the renters being compelled to take a quota, and I say that to compel the exhibitors to put on films that the public do not desire is going too far.
    Colonel DAY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I am sure the President of the Board of Trade will agree that the exhibitors' quota is one of the most important things in the whole Bill. To place this quota upon the exhibitors is a very grave injustice to them. They have voted against it by a majority; they have on many occasions expressed their opinion that it will not be possible to get sufficient good, drawing, British films to be able to comply with the regulations of this Clause. Further, the exhibitor of this country is the man who has millions invested in the bricks and mortar of his theatres. We have read lately in some of the leading journals some criticisms of this Clause dealing with the quota. In one it says:
    "If a bookseller was told by the Board of Trade that for every four American novels sold to customers he was to sell to them one British novel, whether they wanted it or not, he would probably resent the order as a great impertinence, lightened only by its obvious absurdity. In that judgment he would have the full weight of public opinion behind him. That demented situation, however, is precisely what the Government wishes to create in the cinema indus-

    925
    try by giving legislative sanction to 'Compulsory Films.' The compulsory system, at its maximum, means that for each hour of screen time purchased by the cinema goer, 15 minutes are to be devoted to the exhibition of British films, whether he wants them or not. Advocates of 'Compulsory Films,' who, as a class, are not picture goers, will exclaim 'Quite right.' The test of pleasure in pictures is patriotism! In that case, they had better ask the Government to include 15 minutes of compulsory British music in each hour of broadcast opera. That 'reform' should obviously be included if we are to have compulsory entertainment. From movies to music is but a step. Why not take it now?"
    That seems to be the case against the exhibitors' quota. I ask the President of the Board of Trade again, while he is compelling the British public to see British films, how many has he himself seen? I should think that he is anything but a regular frequenter of cinemas and anything but a regular visitor to the cinemas that show British films, unless it is a picture like "The Somme," which was produced lately. If the right hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to witness many of the British films produced lately, I am sure he would not have been quite so anxious to support the Bill in the way he does. I have had several letters from some of our leading West End exhibitors. As they are dealing with the exhibitors' quota, I should like to refer to them and give extracts from them 'for the benefit of the House. One, which is dated 17th October, from one of the principal exhibitors, reads as follows:
    "I should like to draw your attention to the price the Wardour Film Company are demanding for British International films made in England. 'The Ring,' which was trade shown at the Capitol, they asked £2,000 for and demanded a run of three weeks. We would not take it, but another picture house did. For 'Poppies in Flanders,' trade shown at the Astoria last Friday, they demand the same terms. I assume another picture house will take this also. It means that the films are made for the benefit of the renter only. I consider it is monstrous to extort these prices for these British films. The only reason such fabulous prices are demanded for British films is because of the prestige obtained in showing a British picture, but can it last? Will it not place the English film making companies in a false position? Are they not receiving fictitious prices because of Government intervention? These are facts worth considering."
    That is one letter. Another is as follows:
    "It would seem that we are in a most unfortunate position and it is very hard
    926
    lines to be forced into such a position by a Government Measure which would have the effect of compelling us to exhibit poor films at exorbitant prices. You, I feel sure, will appreciate that such a course would mean ruin to a large percentage of the exhibitors.'
    Those are a selection of letters from some of the principal exhibitors that we have here in London. I have here another one which really states the position of the poor exhibitor in the West End of London at the present time:
    "As a further example of the extravagant prices that British film producers are quoting for their pictures, I should like you to know that the Gaumont Film Company are asking £2,000 for a month's run of the film entitled 'The Glad Eye.' …"
    [Interruption.] I am glad it causes some mirth among Members because they will probably realise the position in which they are placing the exhibitors who have thousands of pounds invested in their picture theatres.
    "…There is nothing at all special in the production, it being of quite a mediocre type for which the American price for a week's showing would be about £150. Further, it must be borne in mind, if we were compelled to exhibit a picture for four weeks, the cost of the film for the last week would be £1,500, as the theatre would be empty."
    That is a sample of what is going on between the producing companies, the renters and the exhibitors, and, if the right hon. Gentleman has taken the trouble, as I have, to make inquiries, he will find out that the instances I am giving him are quite correct. Here is a further instance in a letter that has only just come to my hand from one of our prominent West End exhibitors, who is giving it as his first experience of having to get British films. This is dated 25th October, 1927:
    "I have had my first experience of a British picture this week at the Capitol. It is called 'The Woman Redeemed,' is a Stoll production and issued by the New Era. I saw it last night and it was roundly hissed. I am paying £500 for one week for this picture, but so far as is possible I shall avoid putting on a British picture again. It means a very bad week's business for which I am paying a most unreasonable price. However, I have tried it, and I do not want to repeat the experiment. If this is what the quota is going to produce, God help us all! They had ' Downhill ' at the Plaza last week, and saved it by putting on Ivor Novello to act part of the picture, for which they paid him, I believe, £200 a week. If it were not so sad, it would be a huge joke.
    Yours sincerely,
    WALTER GIBBONS."

    927
    I am sure hon. Members will at least acknowledge that Sir Walter Gibbons is one of the greatest authorities we have in showing pictures to-day; at least they will give him credit for being one of the pioneers of the picture business. He was one of the first owners of bioscopes in the United Kingdom, and when the position is such that he writes letters of that character and condemns the pictures that are lauded so much on the other side of the House, and when he does that as a capitalist and as the owner of one of the finest theatres in the West End of London, surely Members of the House should give his words very grave consideration before passing this Clause. Hon. Members should seriously consider whether opinions expressed by men of that calibre, who have been pioneers in the business, are not worthy of the gravest consideration as against the opinions of those who have been advising the President of the Board of Trade. I have here another cutting that may be of interest. It is from one of the principal supporters of the Government party, one of the daily papers, which says:
    "British films produced under the spur of competition have failed because they were inferior. They are not likely to succeed when produced without the incentive of competition. British cinema owners object to the 'Compulsory Films' Bill because they fail to see how a commercial product, which serves artistic and entertainment purposes, can be made in quality by the compulsory exhibition of a statutory quantity. If British films had the quality, we could be certain of the quantity."
    That has been the contention right through. The quotation is from the "Daily Express," which supports the Conservative party. [Interruption.] I sincerely wish that Lord Beaverbrook would support our party in the same way as he has supported the party which the Government now represent, notwithstanding the gibes that one hears in this House when the "Daily Express" is mentioned. I think supporters of the Government should really be ashamed of themselves, laughing when the "Daily Express" is mentioned. I am coming to the point of the exhibitors' quota. We are firmly convinced that British films for many years in this country will not be made to supply the exhibitors' quota in good enough quality to draw audiences. What is going to be the ex-
    928
    hibitors' position? Take the exhibitor who has many hundreds of thousands of pounds invested up and down the country in theatres and cinemas. You are practically compelling that man to sell in his theatre something which he knows will not attract the public, and which, more or less, will mean to him ruination and perhaps bankruptcy. There is no other trade so handcuffed as this trade will be. You are compelling the exhibitor to show eventually 20 per cent, of British films. The President of the Board of Trade says that the Bill has been brought forward because it was the decision of the last conference that was held. Very few of the Colonies have thought of emulating this Bill, and when they do I guarantee that many of the films produced in England—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: If the hon. Member is referring to the Dominions in those terms, we were expressly invited by the Dominions to take the lead as the Mother country, and New Zealand has already asked us to send her particulars of our Bill.
    Colonel DAY: That is not going very-far, and it is not helping the British film industry, because we read regularly in the cinema papers of British films that are exhibited in this country being banned by the censorship in our Colonies. In Committee I have given the names of the different Colonies that have banned the films as unfit for showing—Australia, India and the different Colonies. If the right hon. Gentleman wants the names again I will let him have them before this discussion ends. He is thoroughly well aware of the fact. The exhibitors in this country are going to suffer because the British producers will not be able to produce sufficient super-films such as the American producing companies are producing. I see that that remark causes some hon. Members opposite to smile. The hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff (Captain A. Evans) is smiling. He thinks it can be done. I would like him to give me one instance where a super-film has been produced by a British company and can in any way compare, in expense, with the film that was at the Tivoli recently, namely, "Ben Hur."
    I could mention many other films costing practically £500,000 to produce. If

    929
    we produce films that are to cost as much, where is the market for them? If we had the whole market of the world outside America, even then we should not be able to get back our outlay. Therefore, films produced here have no market or very little market in America. There is no use talking of the Continent as a market. It is practically dead. They buy pictures outright. When you talk of Australia or our Colonies or Africa, practically the same thing applies. This is the country that pays rental and heavy rentals for films; and also America. To talk about our own Colonies or the Continent as the very wide field that we have for the exhibition of films is ridiculous. We cannot capture the American market. There is no use thinking that we can. It has been tried again and again by English producers. A very eminent Member of this House was the chairman of one company which was formed with a capital outlay of £500,000. That company could not capture the American market, and had to go into liquidation. As a matter of fact, I have discussed the matter with the hon. Gentleman on several occasions, and he has explained to me that it was because they could not get their films taken in America that they went into liquidation. The American market was more or less controlled by two or three firms.
    Unless you can get films into the American market there is no hope of making a big super-film pay. It would be better, as a means of helping the British film, if instead of insisting on an exhibitors' quota some arrangement were made with the American film renters that they took certain of our films in exchange for theirs. That arrangement was almost made at one time, but the negotiations broke down. No compulsory arrangement such as this exhibitors' quota will ever make a success. There is the great difficulty of finance. We had an instance given to us yesterday of a company just formed, the capital of which is £200,000. That is ludicrous when talking of producing super-films. £200,000 is only an ordinary amount of money to spend on some of the huge American productions. The hon. and gallant Member for South Cardiff knows that if he knows anything at all about the subject.
    Captain A. EVANS: Surely the hon. Member realises that the super-film takes 80 per cent, of a programme, not 20 per cent., and that the 20 per cent. quota does not become operative until 1936, nine years hence. We can do a lot in nine years. To begin with the quota is much less.
    Colonel DAY: We are talking about the exhibitors' quota as it is in the Bill. You must look forward to the time when you have to supply that 20 per cent., and you must consider from where you are going to obtain the British films. You must also take into consideration where the producer, who has to make the films to supply the 20 per cent., is going to place the films so that he can get his money back. It will be impossible for any British film whatever to bring a return for its cost unless we have the American market, and it is impossible under present conditions to get the American, market. I think this Bill will antagonise those people who could give us the American market. I am very sorry that the hon. and gallant Member does not agree with me. There is another very serious point to be taken into consideration with regard to the exhibitors' quota. This provision of the Bill is of the greatest importance to the small exhibitor. You have the instance of one very big combine, the Provincial Cinema Theatres, who own over 100 cinemas in this country, taking the film "Coronel" before one inch of it was made. Admittedly under the blind booking Clause of the Bill that cannot be done in future. But you have the position to face, that there you have a huge combine which is like an octopus stretching out all over the country, and it will come along to the trade show and say to the producer, "All right, we will give you 100 weeks for that."
    You have the other combine that has been formed with a capital of £2,500,000, which perhaps will come to a working arrangement with Provincial Cinema Theatres. Then you freeze out all the independent exhibitors. How is the independent exhibitor going to get the quota of films which will draw sufficient audiences when the combine theatres take the first run of the pictures? How many Members of the House would care to visit an independent theatre if for two weeks at one corner of the street the

    931
    big combine theatre shows a star picture and for another two weeks the second theatre shows it? That is the difficulty of your quota as far as the exhibitors are concerned. In some towns you have seven first run theatres, as they are called. In Glasgow they have seven first run theatres. I should have thought a member of the Government would probably be advised about that. How is it possible to get the quota operating to an extent which will allow these theatres to get sufficiently attractive programmes if they have to show 20 per cent, of British films? The public themselves will not patronise them, and it will be more or less the ruination of the cinema industry. If you had a quota working up to a basis of perhaps 10 per cent, it might be possible, but even then, if you take the majority of the programmes one sees, it would be almost impossible.
    The cinema industry is more or less based on the theatre and entertainment industry. You only have to look at the West End of London, and in the majority of theatres which are successes you will find foreign plays. It is not that we have got good enough English producers and authors and artists, but we have not got the combination whereby we can spend the money to put the artist, the producer, and the author together to make the play a success, as they can in foreign countries, and that is the reason you have to go to the Continent for the production. It is exactly the same with films. In America they spend £400,000 or £500,000 on a production. In this country they are afraid to spend £4,000 or £5,000. Hon. Members on many occasions have seen comedy films. They have seen houses demolished, and motor cars smashed up for the purpose of getting a laugh. I will tell the House an experience of my own, seeing the making of a British comedy film, where the big star comedian was supposed to get a laugh by falling off a chair and breaking it, which is a thing you commonly see in American films. He went to fall off the chair and the stage manager shouted through his megaphone, "Be very careful of that chair. It is only hired and we have to return it." That is the kind of pettiness and cheapness that prevails with the production of the majority of British films.
    932
    The producer will endeavour to curtail crowds so as to save money, and you never see in, British films the demolishing of ships and things of that kind which you see in big American films. If you do, it is done in such a way that cheapness prevails throughout. In the big studios in America they build up cities to demolish them. Here if they build up the outlines of them, they think they have gone to a great deal of expense. When you have a fire here to demonstrate the burning of houses, it is always done in a pettifogging way, so that you just get one view. I have seen it on many occasions and I know what British films cost because, unfortunately, I have been interested in them and I know what has been lost on them. This Clause will do more harm to the cinema business than all the rest of the Clauses in the Bill.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I thought Clause 16 was going to do that.
    Colonel DAY: I think many of the Clauses are so thoroughly bad that when he has had to work the Bill a little while the right hon. Gentleman will come to the conclusion that it was very regrettable that it ever had to be introduced, because it will do more harm to the cinema industry than anything he could possibly have imagined. It is impossible to conceive how it is hoped to reorganise the producing industry so as to be able to supply films which will be attractive in sufficient numbers according to the provisions in the exhibitors' quota. By the means suggested by the right hon. Gentleman we are going to get inferior films. The public will not appreciate them, and will not patronise the theatres as they do for the big super-productions. The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware of what is known in the entertainment industry as goodwill. If a house shows a certain number of successful pictures and then has a bad picture for one week, the audience will still come. A proprietor will often show a picture which he knows will not draw simply to help the cost of his programmes through. Before the right hon. Gentleman proceeds further with the quota, let him take into consideration that he is compelling proprietors and exhibitors to show films which they know before they book them and advertise them will have no drawing power and will more or less empty their

    933
    theatres. I hope he will try to explain how he is going to supply sufficient British films not only in the suburbs of London, where in some cases you have three or four first-run houses, but say within one mile of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street, where you have 20 first-run cinema theatres. You are going to drive those houses into bankruptcy. In addition to the houses you have at present, fresh theatres are being built of huge capacity. The Empire in Leicester Square will be one of the biggest houses in the country. How are you going to provide sufficient films to supply the quota to go round those theatres?
    Captain A. EVANS: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has delivered himself of a very lengthy oration, the main theme of which apparently was an attack on British producing companies. Of course, the House will realise that if the Clause is deleted the whole purpose of the Bill is defeated. I do not want to discuss the advisability of exhibiting British films in Great Britain. That point was adequately dealt with on the Second Reading. But I should like to deal with one or two points the hon. and gallant Gentleman has raised. In attacking British producers I do not think he was quite fair. I think he was rather apt to compare the methods of British producers before the War and of American producers at present. It is obvious from his speech that he hag not had the privilege of visting1 British producing studios.
    Colonel DAY: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is entirely wrong. I have had every opportunity of visiting some of the finest studios in the country. I do not want to keep on giving advertisements, but the methods I explained of what I saw myself happened only nine months ago.
    Captain EVANS: I do not think anyone who heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman would gather that he was anxious to give an advertisement to British producers. I do not think there is any need to apologise for not having done that.
    Colonel DAY: If you look up the Report of the proceedings in Committee you will find that there was no bigger champion/ than I was of the British producer. I was responsible for the Amend-
    934
    ment being carried in regard to the British producer.
    Captain EVANS: I suppose the privilege of having changed his mind is one the hon. and gallant Gentleman has indulged in, but it is absolute nonsense to say that his speech was not an attack on British producers. Anyone listening to him would have assumed that the 20 per cent, quota became immediately operative after the Bill becomes law. As a matter of fact in 1929 British exhibitors will only be called upon to show 5 per cent, of British films, and it is not till nine years have passed that they will be called upon to show 20 per cent.
    8.0 p.m.
    It is the year 1936 that the 20 per cent, basis becomes operative. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, with his undoubted knowledge of the industry, must realise that nine years, that is the time when the 20 per cent, basis first becomes operative, is a very long time in the history of the film industry. You have only to compare the quality and tone of the films of to-day, be they produced in America or be they produced in this country, with the quality of those films which were produced nine years ago. The hon. and gallant Gentleman told the House that the British film had little or no chance of being exhibited in the United States of America. That is, of course, true to a certain extent, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman based his argument on the fact, as I understand it, that the British producers were to confine their activities to what is known in the trade as super-films. The super-film takes up not 20 per cent, but 80 per cent, of programmes. After all, British producers now have only to confine their activities to produce films which for the next six years at least will not take up 10 per cent, of the programme. I have not the slightest doubt that those films when they are produced, providing they are good films, will have the same opportunity of penetrating into the American market as the German films have to-day.
    The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that because of this Measure those American captains of the film industry, who, apparently, control the situation from the point of view of the exhibitors in the United States to-day, would be less apt to facilitate the passage of British films into America than they were before

    935
    this Bill became law. I know quite a number of the American captains in that industry personally, and I can assure the House that there is little sentiment, if any, when it comes to deciding a question of this kind. The film will be considered from one point of view only, namely, whether it is a film which will be a success from the box office point of view. After all, it is obvious that as a result of this Bill many producing companies will spring up in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) quoted a case in this House only yesterday where a film company in putting its prospectus before the public had its share capital subscribed over eleven times. It is obvious the British investor, at least, has far more faith in the capabilities of the British producer, British industry, and British resources than the hon. and gallant Gentleman has himself. I sincerely hope that in deciding this question the House will bear in mind the facts which it has been my privilege to put before it to-night.
    The whole question comes down to this. Do you or do you not want to encourage the production and exhibition of British films in this country at the present time? We on this side of the House feel for many reasons that that is a desirable and legitimate object. With that purpose in view, we have endeavoured to give all the encouragement to British producers which is possible and, at the same time, which is practicable, and that is the reason why the quota percentage has been set out in the Schedule in the way that it has been. For instance, anybody who visits the cinema will know that a film which takes up only 5 or 7½ per cent, of the programme, may be an instructional film or a short comedy, and I think it is reasonable to suppose that the British producers to-day will be able to produce among themselves sufficient films of a high quality at least to fill 7½ per cent, of the programme. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the exhibitor will be forced, whether he likes it or not, to buy or to rent British films, and the studios, knowing that fact, will not concentrate on those films or invest the necessary capital, and turn out a quality of film which can compete fairly with American or with other foreign films. But there are, even if no other British
    936
    producing companies are formed after this Bill becomes law, sufficient producing companies in Breat Britain to-day to fill anything up to 10 per cent, of the programmes.
    There is only one other point with which I desire to deal. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman quoted, I believe, the views of many exhibitors in this country, he knew that it has been the policy of American producing companies to acquire cinema theatres direct in all parts of the world. I say American producing companies chiefly because they have more capital at their command at the moment. They have acquired many cinema theatres in this country and many cinema theatres on the Continent. Of course, it is reasonable to suppose from their point of view that they do not want and they will not support any legislation which is introduced which has the effect of making them show films which are not manufactured by their own parent firm in their own country. I sincerely hope, bearing in mind the fact that it is not until nine years hence, during which great strides can be made in this industry, that British exhibitors will be called upon to show 20 per cent, of British films, that this House to-night will give the necessary encouragement to British producers in order that the British public who visit the cinema theatres may have a better knowledge of British ideals, of British policy, and of British aims than that which comes from the medium of foreign pictures.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: I regard this Clause as having the most vicious principle behind it that one can possibly conceive, because if it means anything at all, it means that the British public are going to be forced to see films of a particular character whether they want to see them or not. It is a question of forcing the public to see a certain percentage of films irrespective of their artistic value or of whether they satisfy the taste of the public at all. I regard that as an exceedingly vicious principle. Apart from the economic side of the question, and apart from the point as to the protection or encouragement of the industry, the renter has to take his quota anyhow. So far as the encouragement of the industry is concerned, that is already covered, but here the exhibitor is compelled not only to.

    937
    buy, but to exhibit, films of a certain character whether the customers of the exhibitor require to see them or not. Otherwise, the Clause is totally unnecessary. That is the only possible purpose of a Clause of this character. The principle behind the thing is vicious in this way. Members of this House remember that during the War there was a point of this character brought out in the attitude which was adopted by a well-known conductor of music in London. I refer to Sir Henry J. Wood. At that time there was a movement more or less official—semi-official and of a public character—which endeavoured to prevent the performance of German music, because we were at war with Germany. To the credit of his artistic and moral courage, Sir Henry Wood stood up against it. He realised that in matters of art the only possible attitude of mind would have to be an international one, whether it was a question of war or not. Yet here you have the same vicious principle, not in the encouragement of the industry—that is already covered—but in the name of patriotism, which I respect quite as much as any Member opposite. I think that patriotism, if worth anything at all, can very well be left to take care of itself without the encouragement of such a vicious principle.
    At the present moment, Sir Thomas Beecham has brought before the country a very important proposal with regard to the development of opera in this country. Suppose the proposal brought before this House was that out of every four operas produced by Sir Thomas Beecham under his new scheme one had to be the production of a British composer and a British librettist, what would the effect of it be? The effect, obviously, would be not the encouragement of music in this country, though it might be a temporary encouragement to certain British composers, not the encouragement of art, but the kind of thing which would encourage people to discard that very form of art and find satisfaction in other directions. If I may use another illustration rather different in type but analogous, I remember as a boy I was compelled to read the Bible through once every year. When I reached the period of life when I could decide for myself as to what my literary satisfaction would be, I did not, for many years, read the Bible at all. I
    938
    had had too much of the Bible forced upon me. It was not until much later in life that I began to realise the literary and spiritual value of that Book. If you are going to force people to see particular types of films, whether they want to do so or not—and that is the only meaning that can be attached to this particular Clause—the only effect will be— it will be so in my case, I am perfectly sure—that they will not go to see the films at all, but will rather go to see a revue or something else, and the industry will not be encouraged at all. For those reasons, I support the deletion of this Clause, believing in the broad principle that art and patriotism can be left to look after themselves without these adventitious aids.
    Mr. T. SHAW: I have only a few words to say in support of the deletion of this Clause. I have heard the arguments in favour of the Bill, but it appears to me that those arguments have fallen short of dealing with the whole of the principles laid down in this Clause as well as in the Bill generally. I do not want to repeat what has been said about trying to force patriotism down one's throat. I am as patriotic a. Briton, I think, as any Member of this House, and I am so patriotic a Briton, that I absolutely object to the idea that unless I am spoonfed I shall refrain from being a Briton. It is a wrong idea of patriotism altogether. It is damning the country in the eyes of the world continually to be trotting out the idea that unless you are always shouting about the flag, that unless you are constantly being fed with inspiration about the flag, you will not remain a good Briton. It is a monstrous idea that we should have this kind of thing inflicted on us generally and to an extent that is really an absurdity. But there is another thing—and the principal thing—that I have as an objection to this Clause as well as to the principle of the Bill. You say to the man who is going to show the film: "We will force you to show a certain percentage of British films," but you give him absolutely no guarantee against being bled by the producer of the film. You say to him, in fact: "It is patriotism that you should use these films; it is patriotism that insists that a certain percentage shall be British films." We are to give him no guarantee that the force we apply to make him show these

    939
    British films shall not be used against him by the people who produce the films.
    If you insist, whether for patriotic or other reasons matters nothing to me, that the man must, willy-nilly, show a certain number of films, and that the film-going public, willy-nilly, must see the films, you ought to give to the shower of the films and the people who go to see the films a guarantee that the films shall be of a price that is reasonable and a quality that is good. You do nothing of the kind. You hand over the shower of the films to the tender mercies of the producer, and give him no guarantee against being exploited, under the compulsion which you put upon him to exhibit the films. If this Bill in any way gave an assurance to the exhibitor or the public that, as a result of the compulsion to show the films, the Government would give a guarantee that the films were good and the price reasonable, one could understand it; but to hand over the exhibitor of the film and the cinema attender to the tender mercies of what will almost inevitably become under this law a great combine, is contrary to the spirit of fair play and justice. Because I believe that, I will not say the purpose but the result of the Bill will be to place the cinema proprietor and the pubic in the hands of the British film producing company who,, by virtue of this law, will be able to inflict their films, whatever their quality, on the public, and whatever their price on the cinema proprietor. I shall vote for the deletion of this Clause.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I am sorry that I was not in the House in the earlier stages of the discussion of this Clause, but so far as I can gather from what has been said the attack on the quota provisions in respect of the exhibitor is directed more from the point of principle than anything else. Let me deal with it from that standpoint. May I recall what has led up to the establishment of the quota? Hon. Members will remember that before we foreshadowed legislation the President of the Board of Trade called together the sections of the cinema trade, the exhibitors, the renters and the producers, and said to them, "We feel that this new element in our national life, this moving picture, coming to us, as to 95 per cent., from foreign countries and going about among the youth of the world, and particularly the ignorant
    940
    native populations of the Empire, is so important that something must be done." He called the three sections together, and said, "Can you do anything to relieve the situation?" These gentlemen got together, with the best intentions in the world, and for many months tried to do what they could to arrive at some mutual understanding which would bring about a larger production of British films, which we Britishers, very reasonably, feel we might have. They failed. Then the President of the Board of Trade decided that we must embark upon a Bill, and this is the Bill, and the exhibitors' quota is one of the great cardinal features of it.
    Hon. Members criticise the quota as to exhibitors, but they must bear in mind that we have already imposed the quota on the renter, who is one of the three essential parts of the trade. We have said to the renter: "You must acquire for the purpose of renting a certain percentage of British films in the quota year." In fairness to the renter you must go to the exhibitor and say: "You must take a percentage of this quota of British films from the renter." Therefore, you are at once led from one section of the trade to the other, and you establish the exhibitors' quota. If this Clause were to be rejected now, we should be back to the condition we were in before Second Beading, when the House approved the principle of the exhibitors' quota. Arguments have been advanced as to there not being enough films available and as to the hardship, of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke, that would be caused by forcing the exhibitor to take these films and forcing the British public to go and look at such films. I think those arguments have not much bearing on the main question with which we are concerned, to which reference was made by the hon. Member for Cardiff South (Captain A. Evans) namely: "Do we or do we not want to produce a greater quantity of British films?" Surely, all in this House are desirous of circulating throughout the British Empire a larger quantity of British films and I do not believe that the hon. Member for Islington West (Mr. Montague) in his heart believes that British films of a good kind cannot be produced.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: What about opera? Will you apply this principle to them?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I should be prepared to deal with that question whenever it came before the House; but for the moment I am dealing with the question of the exhibitors' quota, and I must ask the House not to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: The House is much obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for the very frank way in which he has replied to the discussion, and it must have been interested in the reply he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington West (Mr. Montague), which would seem to indicate that the Government are so pleased with the success they have had up to date in regard to this wonderful Films Bill that later on, if it were proposed to apply the same principle in regard to opera or comic opera or anything of that kind, the Parliamentary Secretary would be prepared to stand at that box and defend it. I should hardly think that the experience of the Government in regard to this Bill would have been sufficiently promising to encourage the Parliamentary Secretary or his Chief to go further into the development of this principle in industry. I should like to quote from an evening newspaper, tonight, the "Evening Standard," in which the editor says:
    "Scarcely any Measure introduced into Parliament of recent years has had fewer friends. Not only were its specific Clauses picked to pieces yesterday, but the whole conception of the Bill is felt to be futile."
    This is one of the newspapers which supports the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): We are dealing with the particular proviso as to the exhibitors' quota.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: This is one of the main Clauses of the Bill, and the evening newspaper is right when it says that this is one of the most futile of the Clauses. It goes on to say:
    "A Measure to make compulsory the purchase of a certain quota of British paintings, British music or British fruit could hardly be more futile."
    That is not encouraging to the Parliamentary Secretary. The Government have failed, despite the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, to meet the case that has been made on behalf of the exhibitors to-night. Anyone who listened to the case made out by the hon. Member
    942
    for Central Southwark (Colonel Day), who has a knowledge of the industry, must feel that this Bill is severely handicapping the great majority of exhibitors in this country. The test is the opinion of the exhibitors themselves. We have been told throughout the discussions on this Bill that the President of the Board of Trade and his colleagues have consulted the trade. The Cinematograph Exhibitors' Association cannot claim a majority in favour of this Clause. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that a plebiscite was taken with regard to the exhibitors clause and a majority was recorded against it. If it be the case of the Government for the Bill that they are really acting on the advice of the trade, then they should take out this Clause at once, because on a referendum the trade is against it. The next point is the impossibility of the managers and owners of cinemas in the more crowded industrial areas like Lancashire and Yorkshire being able to comply with the quota as laid down. I have had conversations with people interested in six or seven picture houses. Within a very small area all round are competing houses, so that it is impossible with the present rate of production of British films for them to get an adequate supply of a drawing capacity to fill the quota.
    Captain A. EVANS: Not 5 per cent.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: I will take the hon. Member on the figure of 5 per cent. The Board of Trade announced with considerable pride that there had been about 60 British films produced, and I ask the hon. and gallant Member how many British films you would want in any one year in order to fill the 5 per cent, quota in the first year for all theatres; films which would ensure that the box office receipts, for that is what is important, are not ruined by this legislation.
    Captain EVANS: I say with great respect that the hon. Member misses the point entirely. The question of feature films does not arise for at least five years, and it does not require a feature film to fill 5 per cent, of a programme. It only requires a short film.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: That is no answer, because the same thing applies to feature films. If you take the Board of Trade Report on the production of feature films, the same thing applies. It will not be possible in the first 12

    943
    months to meet the quota and not impair the box office receipts. As the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) has already said, we are hearing reports as to the type of film which has been produced. You have the military film, which does not go down in many centres, and you get films like Sweeney Todd the Barber. Does the hon. Member suggest that these are the kind of films which should be supported by a Protectionist Measure like this? Is that the type of film he wants produced? If you are going to leave this quota Clause upon the exhibitors it will be impossible for them to meet it unless their box office receipts are impaired, and if their receipts are injured you are not only endangering the profits of the owners of the theatre but seriously endangering the livelihood of a large number of working people. This consideration ought to have been more present in the mind of the Government than it has been.
    In my view the Parliamentary Secretary has altogether failed to meet the case put forward by the Amendment. If you are going to have protection at all, it is quite sufficient to have a quota for the renter, and that is laid down in Clause 13. If the British producing industry is going to do the wonderful work it has been claimed it will, if it is a compulsory quota for the renter, who will have to get rid of his films on the basis of their quality, then there is quite sufficient protection afforded for those who go into the business side. It is a very serious and new departure in our industrial and commercial life to say to a great group of people in a business like the cinematograph exhibitors' business, with a capital of more than £50,000,000, who ought to know how to run their business according to the demands of the public on whom they are dependent for their profits, that you are going to lay down how in the future they are to carry on their business, and how they are to provide employment for the people who have worked for them in the past. If you are going to accept such a proposition in regard to the film industry, why not for every other industry? The conditions laid down in this compulsory quota for exhibitors and renters is just the kind of thing which hon. Members opposite usually charge Socialists with desiring to
    944
    bring into the business of the country. No Socialist Government would ever propose such a mad scheme as this, but the people who are always claiming that a Socialist Government will interfere with the reasonable conduct of business are now proposing an interference of a type which we have never had before, simply because it conforms to their own Protectionist theories. I hope the House will follow the advice given from this side and reject this Clause altogether.
    Mr. STEPHEN: I would not intervene in this Debate at all but for one remark of the Parliamentary Secretary when he replied to the discussion. He said that the main reason for the introduction of this quota was the necessity for having British films shown to the natives of other parts of the Empire, and it struck me that there was something quite indefensible in subjecting the cinematograph exhibitors and the public of this country to what is involved by this Measure in order to protect the moral of the natives in some other parts of the British Empire. This Bill is not going to do anything of that kind. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] An hon. Member says "Why?" I do not think an exhibition of "Sweeney Todd, the Barber" would have an uplifting effect upon the natives of the Isle of Wight, or any other island around the British Isles. There is one question I want to put to the Government in connection with this Clause, and it is whether it is not possible to come to some kind of compromise regarding it. This Clause provides that a certain quota of British films must be exhibited. I suggest that the proprietors might take the quota and pay the renters for their share, in order to allow the development of the industry to proceed; but that they should be allowed to withhold from exhibition pictures which they thought might spoil their programmes and kill their business.
    I do not think that during all the controversy upon this Measure a suggestion of the kind has been made, and I do not think the Government have considered the point. If the proprietor of the picture house is willing to take his quota of the films, he will also be prepared to exhibit films which are good business; but he ought to be allowed on the other hand to say, "If all the pictures in my share are such that the exhibition of them only means that people will see

    945
    neither British films nor any other films because they will not come to the theatre at all, then I will withhold them from exhibition." I think my suggestion represents a fair compromise. There would be no necessity for the exhibition of the film unless the person responsible for the cinema theatre thought it was good business to do so. If good British films were produced, the proprietors of these picture houses would be anxious to put those films on the screen. The public, too, would be anxious to see those British films if they justified themselves. Then business would prosper and everybody would be satisfied. But if the result of this Bill is to spoil business, it will only have the effect of doing away altogether with British film-producing and practically with the whole cinema industry in this country. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will agree to leaving to the option of the individual the question of whether he will exhibit or not, as long as he takes the quota. That would be a fair compromise and would offer an incentive to British producers to produce the real article and make British films a success. It would put them on their mettle and induce them to put their imaginations and their minds into the production of films and would place British films at the head of the film production of the world. Clause 19, as it stands, does not give the industry in Britain a chance. It is meant to be kind but it is mistaken kindness. It represents the grandmotherly attitude of saying to the industry, "Cling to my hand; I will look after you."
    I also suggest to the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that if they are in thorough earnest about this matter, they should give an exhibition of films to Members of the House. I throw out the suggestion that before the Third Reading arrangements should be made for an exhibition in some of the Committee Rooms of British and other films. It would be a cheering innovation in our deliberations and might result in the abandonment of the Third Reading of the Bill. The cinema industry and also British film production would then be allowed to go on and prosper. It will prosper if it is dependent upon the enterprise, imagination and endeavour of British citizens who can, I am quite sure,
    946
    hold their own against any rivals in the world without such adventitious aids as are offered by the President of the Board of Trade.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I have been conferring with my colleagues and we are prepared to make the Government an offer. If they will drop this Clause and also Clause 20 referring to the prohibition against carying on the business of an exhibitor unless licensed, we will not offer any further opposition to this Bill either during the Report Stage or on the Third Reading. [Laughter.] It is not a laughing matter. The exhibitors' quota is quite unnecessary as far as British industry is concerned. As long as the renters' quota is provided for, then a quota of British films is bound to be made and bought and probably shown. At any rate, there will be a certain amount of employment and of incentive to British producers. The renters' quota is already in the Bill. Could not we drop the exhibitors' quota and the provision as to licences for exhibitors? It is unneces-to give all this trouble to the exhibitors and it would be in the interests of the Government and certainly in the interests of the industry to simplify the Bill by leaving the exhibitor out of all the nuisance and inconvenience which these two Clauses will cause.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I have been four and a half months in Committee upstairs with the right hon. and gallant Gentleman on this Bill and, much as I have admired the adroitness with which he has led the small band of opponents to the Bill, there have been times when I have found it difficult to take him seriously. He comes to me now and asks me to drop a Clause of the Bill which we consider to be essential, and he asks me to do so for the sake of some bargain that he will drop all opposition to the Bill from this moment onwards. But he has already agreed with the President of the Board of Trade that the proceedings on the Bill shall terminate on Thursday. I must say that I do not like the suggestion which he now makes that we should drop out of the Bill a key Clause on which the renters' quota depends. He says it does not matter, but I say it does, and that if you did not impose a quota on the exhibitors, you would have a very weak ground for imposing one on

    947
    the renters. Of course, I cannot accept any such agreement.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word
    eleven,' in line 24, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 139.

    Division No. 338.]

    AYES.

    [8.47 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Albery, Irving James

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Gates, Percy

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Appiln, Colonel R. V. K.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Grace, John

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Philipson, Mabel

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Pilcher, G.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Berry, Sir George

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Price, Major C. W M.

    Bethel, A.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Radford, E. A.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Harland, A.

    Ramsden, E.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Remer, J. R.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Remnant, Sir James

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hasiam, Henry C.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Rye, F. G.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Burman, J. B.

    Hope, Capt. A. 0. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sandon, Lord

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Savery, S. S.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Christie, J. A.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Clayton, G. C.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Cope, Major William

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Couper, J. B.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Long, Major Eric

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Dixey, A. C.

    McLean, Major A.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Drewe, C.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

    Edmonson, Major A. J.

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Waddington, R.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Margesson, Capt. D.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Meller, R. J.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Wells, S. R.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Fielden, E. B.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Womersley, W. J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Captain Bowyer and Major the

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Yorburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Marquess of Titchfield.

    Withers, John James

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hardle, George D.

    Smillie, Robert

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Baker, Walter

    Hayday, Arthur

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Snell, Harry

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Hirst, G. H.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Broad, F. A.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bromfield, William

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bromley, J.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kennedy, T

    Sullivan, Joseph

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Cape, Thomas

    Kirkwood, D.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Thomson, Trsvelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

    Clowes, S.

    Lawson, John James

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lee, F

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Compton, Joseph

    Lowth, T.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Lunn, William

    Varley, Frank B.

    Cove, W. G.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

    Viant, S. P.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Mackinder, W.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Dalton, Hugh

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    MacNeill-Weir, L.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    March, S.

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Maxton, James

    Wedgwood. Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Dennison, R.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Duncan, C.

    Montague, Frederick

    Welsh, J. C.

    Dunnico, H.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Westwood, J.

    Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)

    Murnin, H.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    England, Colonel A.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Forrest, W.

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Paling, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Glliett, George M.

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Gosling, Harry

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Ritson, J.

    Wright, W.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln.,Cent.)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W. Bromwich)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Greenall, T.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Rose, Frank H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

    Groves, T.

    Scurr, John

    Whiteley.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Sir B. CHADWICK: I beg to move, in page 10, line 24, to leave out the word "eleven," and to insert instead thereof the word "nine."
    This is consequent upon the reduction in the period.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to move, in page 10, line 29, after the word "films," to insert the words "compared with registered foreign films."
    I have put down several Amendments to this Bill, and I am glad to say that every one of them has been accepted by the President of the Board of Trade, and I feel sure that, now that the Parliamentary Secretary is in charge, he will not
    950
    wish to be any less generous. This Amendment, I understand, is purely drafting, although I have had brought to me certain considerations which would appear to make it more than drafting. The object of my hon. Friends and myself in putting the Amendment down was to clarify Clause 19, and that is at present the whole of our intention. If hon. Members will look at the Clause, they will see that exhibitors must exhibit films at such and such a theatre in at least such proportion of registered British films as is mentioned with respect to the year in question. If you are going to have a proportion of British films, you must know what the proportion refers to, but I take it that the proportion of British films must be in a certain quota compared with

    951
    the number of registered foreign films. If in the Second Schedule you say that in such and such a year, say 1937, 20 per cent, of the registered British films must be shown, that must be 20 per cent, compared with a corresponding number of registered foreign films, but the words "compared with registered foreign films" do not appear in the text, and my object is to insert them and make quite certain on this point. I do not know whether there is any objection to these words; if so, I should be glad to hear what it is. They make it a little clearer, however, and I think the Under-Secretary might well emulate his Chief in accepting the Amendment.
    Mr. TINKER: I beg to second the Amendment.
    9.0 p.m.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I do wish I could accept the Amendment, but I cannot. The hon. and gallant Member wants for some reason or other to decide on a percentage of the foreign films only. What he will do by this Amendment is to reduce the total percentage and take a percentage of foreign films. If the
    amount of foreign films shown is 75 per cent., he will take his percentage on that and not on the total of all registered films shown. If he reads the Clause to the end, he will find that the percentage is to include both long films and short films,
    "and if the films so exhibited include both long films and short films as hereinbefore defined the requirements of this Section must be satisfied as respects the long films so exhibited as well as respects all the films so exhibited."
    So that it makes it quite clear that the quota percentage is taken on the whole.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It is not clear. You say "the proportion of all films." Do you mean all the films?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: Yes.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Then why leave the wording in such a way that it may mean all films, including those to which the Bill does not apply? It is
    just like the drafting of this Bill, it is absolutely obscure. That is one of the points a decent draftsman would see at once.
    Captain A. EVANS: If the Act does not apply, what does it matter?
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: You are stating that the proportion of British films must be a certain proportion of something else, and, as far as I can make out from the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, it means the proportion of the total films registered. All those words at the end were added in the Committee stage to meet the case of the long and short films, but really they do not apply to the Clause at all. We ought to have somewhere in the Bill what it is a proportion of. I do not propose debating this matter. It is merely a matter of drafting, but it does leave the Clause in an obscure position. We do not know whether the proportion of 20 per cent, is to be 20 per cent, of all the films exhibited in the theatre or 20 per cent, of all the registered films.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: Cannot the Parliamentary Secretary give further consideration to this matter 2 If he will look at Part IV of the Bill, Clause 26, he will see a whole series of films to which the Act does not apply, but these films, although they have not got to be registered under the Bill, will be shown. The point we wish to make clear is whether these are to be calculated when you are reckoning the percentage. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary could make that point clear, and say whether the percentage is only to be taken from the actual registered films shown.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I do not want to leave hon. Gentlemen in any doubt. The percentage applies to films dealt with in Clause 19. Those are only registered films, so the percentage can only apply to registered films.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 135; Noes, 235.

    Division No. 339.]

    AYES.

    [9.5 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Baker, Walter

    Bromfield, William

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Bromley, J.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Batey, Joseph

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Bondfield, Margaret

    Buchanan, G.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Cape, Thomas

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Broad, F. A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Clowes, S.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Snell, Harry

    Cluse, W. S.

    Kennedy, T.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Compton, Joseph

    Kirkwood, D.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Connolly, M.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Stephen, Campbell

    Cove, W. G.

    Lawson, John James

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Lee, F.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Lindley, F. W.

    Sullivan, J.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lowth, T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Lunn, William

    Taylor, R. A.

    Dennison, R.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Duncan, C.

    Mackinder, W.

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Dunnico, H.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Thurtle, Ernest

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    March, S.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Fenby, T. D.

    Maxton, James

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Varley, Frank B.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Montague, Frederick

    Viant, S. P.

    Gillett, George M.

    Morrison. R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Gosling, Harry

    Murnin, H.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Nayfor, T. E.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Greenall, T.

    Owen, Major G.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine)

    Palin, John Henry

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F, W.

    Westwood, J.

    Groves, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Ritson, J.

    Whiteley, W.

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh. Wrexham)

    Hardie, George D.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Scurr, John

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Wright, W.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Smillie, Robert

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighiey)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Allen

    Parkinson.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Clayton, G. C.

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Gates, Percy.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Albery, Irving James

    Cohen, Major J. Brunei

    Goff, Sir Park

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Grace, John

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Cope, Major William

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Couper, J. B.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Berry, Sir George

    Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Bethel, A.

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Harland, A.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Dixey, A. C.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Drewe, C.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Ellis, R. G.

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Briscoe, Richard George

    England, Colonel A.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Burman, J. B.

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Fermoy, Lord

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Campbell, E. T.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Casseis, J. D.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Forrest, W.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Foster, Sir Henry S.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Ceh'l)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Christie, J. A.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    954

    955

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Penny, Frederick George

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G, (Westm'eland)

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Storry-Deans, R.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Philipson, Mabel

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Pilcher, G.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Loder, J. de V.

    Radford, E. A.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Long, Major Eric

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Sugden, Sir Wilfred

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Ramsden, E.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Lumley, L. R.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Remer, J. R.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Macdonald, Capt. P. o. (I. of W.)

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Waddington, R.

    McLean, Major A.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Rye, F. G.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Wells, S. R.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Sandon, Lord

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Meller, R. J.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Savery, S. S.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Withers, John James

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Womersley, W. J.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Skelton, A. N.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Smithers, Waldron

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Somervilie, A. A. (Windsor)

    Captain Viscount Curzon and Major

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    the Marquess of Titchfield.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Captain A. EVANS: I beg to move, in page 11, line 17, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(4) In the case of any exhibitor who, in any such year, does not exhibit in any one theatre on more than six days nor in more than one theatre at the same time, the provisions of this Section as to the exhibitors' quota shall apply, subject to the following modification: it shall not be necessary for any such exhibitor to comply with those provisions as respects any particular theatre if, had all the exhibitions given by him in the year been exhibitions at the same theatre, those provisions would have been complied with."
    This Amendment is really consequential upon the Amendment moved by the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain Macdonald) on Clause 16, and accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. As the Bill is framed, under Clause 20 an exhibitor has to obtain a licence from the Board of Trade for each theatre at which he exhibits his film, and also to comply with the quota provisions in respect of each individual theatre. I think it will be agreed that this imposes an obvious hardship upon the proprietors of travelling cinemas which move from place to place and give shows on only one or two nights in various halls in different vil-
    956
    lages and small towns. Accordingly, the Amendment proposes that such an exhibitor will be held to comply with the requirements of the Act if he shows at his theatres the requisite number of British films to satisfy the quota.
    Mr. DIXEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I am pleased to be able to accept this Amendment, which will confer a little benefit on a very deserving class of people, the small exhibitors.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 20.—(Prohibition against carrying on business of exhibitor unless licensed.)
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
    This Clause is almost a twin of the Clause we passed a short time ago dealing with the question of the renter. The difference is that in this case exhibitors are required to be licensed twice. They must be licensed by the Board of Trade, although they are already licensed by the local authority. For the life of me I cannot understand why exhibitors

    957
    should have to be licensed under this Bill. The consideration which applies to the renters in no way applies to them. The argument put forward with regard to the renters in no way applies to them. The argument put forward with regard to renters was that they might be foreigners, and that if we did not license them and impose penalties for failure to take out a licence they would be making a profit for themselves by not obtaining licences. But the exhibitors are not foreigners, and I see no reason why we should require them to take out licences, any more than other business men. The penalty is the same as in the other case—£20 for each day which the exhibitor carries on business without a licence. If by any stretch of the imagination it could be thought to be legitimate to put a fine of this magnitude on a renter who might be an alien, taking advantage of our weakness, our super-British weakness, our fondness for foreigners, such considerations do not apply in the case of an exhibitor. Consider what the penalty is—a fine of £20 for what may be a mere lapse of memory on the part of an individual.
    I understand that this is a £1 licence, and for not taking out that licence the penalty is to be £20 per day. I will not quote the motor driver, but what about the milk adulterator or the food poisoner? Here we have leniency meted out to those who practice food adulteration, but compare that with the £20 per day fine which is imposed under this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "It says not exceeding £20!"] I am aware that the fine has not to exceed £20. I am taking it that the limit placed in the Bill is £20, according to the judgment of the magistrates, and I am comparing this fine with breaches of the law in other directions. The whole thing is an outrage, and a preposterous thing for a Government to do. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will see his way to accept this Amendment and withdraw the Clause. If this offence was in any sense comparable with the penalty imposed, it would be different, but I cannot conceive who is going to be injured if the offence takes place. The quota would be complied with and the films would be shown, but the £1 would not be paid for the licence, and because of that the magistrates have power to impose this stupendous fine which is entirely out of all proportion to the offence.
    Mr. KELLY: Amendment.
    I wonder how many licences the Government think the cinema proprietors should hold? They are all compelled to take out a licence from the local authority for the purpose of holding a cinema. They have to take out a music licence, and if they permit dancing they must take out a dancing licence. Is it the intention of the Government to make it as difficult as possible for these people to carry on their business? Now you are going to impose upon these people who apply for permission to exhibit films the obligation of holding a number of trade licences, and instead of helping the film industry the intention of the Government is to make it as difficult as possible for them. I hope the House will carry this Amendment, and get rid of this penalty of £20 a day.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I hope the hon. Member will not press this Amendment, because it is one of the key Clauses of the Bill. If the principles of the Bill are to be carried out, one important consideration is that the exhibitors should take out a licence. A penalty of £20 a day is not considered to be excessive for such a serious offence as the failure to take out a licence. The hon. Member has referred to the number of licences that these people must take out, but I do not think in practice that this will be found to be difficult. These people know what they have got to do, and where they have to go to get the licence, and, for these reasons, I ask the House to pass this Clause.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me what would happen supposing the provision relating to licensing was knocked out? How would it affect the film industry and the production of films?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: That question carries us back to the principle as to whether the exhibitors' quota and the renters' quota are desirable, and that is a subject which I cannot deal with at the present moment.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think the Parliamentary Secretary is mistaken in what he has just stated, because this Amendment will not make any difference to the quota. You can insist upon

    959
    certain things being done without taking out an annual licence. The main point is that this Clause provides the finance of the Bill. You have some 4,000 exhibitors, and each of them has got to contribute one guinea a year. I am amazed at the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Wallhead) suggesting that the Government should drop out this method of taxing the people of this country. Of course, these people must pay, because that is the intention of the Government. These people have to take out a licence from the local authority. Everybody cannot get a licence to run a cinema. It is well known that you have to conform to certain conditions. Proper precautions have to be taken against the risk of fire, and, if such conditions are not complied with, it means that the theatre is not safe. I have no objection to that sort of licence, but this is merely a method of taxation. Every single soul could go to the right hon. Gentleman's Department, if this Bill goes through, and take out a licence as an exhibitor. He might never show a single picture, but the Government will have his cash. This licence is purely and simply a method of taxing the industry to raise funds for the Department.
    Let me ask whether the person who does not pay his tax, say his super-tax, punctually is treated like the man who has not paid his licence fee for the Government Department. This is simply an annual payment to the Government. If that annual payment is one day in arrears, there will be a £20 fine; two days in arrears, a £40 fine; a week in arrears, a £140 fine. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this admirable method of getting taxes paid up to date? No question of interest or compound interest; fine the brute. Of course, Conservatives will stand that sort of thing. The drafters of this Bill were not such fools as one would think they were. When the Bill was originally introduced, it was not to be so easy to get a licence as an exhibitor. There were conditions attached. If a man lost his licence and broke the law, as this Bill was originally introduced, and if he still tried to keep his theatre open, then there might be justification in
    960
    fining him £20 for keeping his theatre open, but they took that out in Committee. Now a man incurs no loss of licence for anything he does. He can get drunk every night and he can even be incarcerated without loss of licence. I cannot help feeling that the 4,000 exhibitors who are voters will not be excessively grateful to the Government for being selected from all the other body of taxpayers in this country for treatment which is not merely evil but foolish.
    Mr. DIXEY: It is impossible that the eloquent appeals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) can have no effect upon this side of the House. I would like to address a question to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade; it is whether he will consider a reduction of the penalty in this Clause.
    Colonel DAY: There is one point which has evidently been lost sight of, and it is a very important one. While I particularly support the Amendment that has been moved, I would like to point out that there are several thousands of music halls which show films as a portion of their programme, and these will be registered films. Will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade say whether these music hall proprietors who only show a topical budget, or perhaps one film of five or six hundred feet, will be compelled to take out a licence or will be liable to penalties for failure to do so?
    Sir CHARLES OMAN: The right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) who said that these licences are intended by the Government to make it difficult for anybody to exhibit films, might as well say that the dog licence is intended deliberately on the part of the Government to prevent people keeping dogs. We have been talking about £20 fines, but £20 is the extreme limit. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows perfectly well that a man, who by some small carelessness is a day late in registering himself, will not be fined £20. He will be fined the least that the Court thinks proper, which may be five shillings. You might as well say that a man who happens to run against another man in the street will be sent to prison for seven years, because that is the sentence which can be given for aggra-

    961
    vated assault. It is a farce to pretend that the maximum is the fine that is going to be imposed.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: If what the hon. Gentleman has said were true, we might qualify our opinion, but we are not at all certain from recent history that the defendants in Police Courts get that justice meted out to them which the hon. Gentleman opposite says.
    Sir C. OMAN: On a. point of Order. Is a discussion on the way in which justice is administered in England germane to a discussion of this Bill?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman has just referred to that question himself, and I think the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) is not out of order in referring to it.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) has assumed that it will be only in rare cases that the maximum penalty will be imposed. I would like to mention a case of a cinematograph proprietor in Lancashire, which I quoted in the Committee upstairs. He forgot to make an application for a special one-day licence to open his theatre on Good Friday, and he opened it without permission while every other theatre in the town was also open. He was taken to the Police Court and fined, and, when it came to a question of renewing his licence, the renewal was refused on the ground that he was a convicted person.
    Sir C. OMAN: Were all the other theatres open on Good Friday or not?
    Mr. ALEXANDER: They were open. The proprietors were wise enough not to forget, and they made application for special licences. So merciful was the attitude of the bench of magistrates that this man was treated as a convicted person and did not have his licence renewed. It is no good to say we are always perfectly safe in putting in high penalties in the statures, because in the majority of cases Courts of summary jurisdiction will not impose the maximum penalty. From various cases which have been taken to higher Courts from Courts of summary jurisdiction, it is clear that, whenever we have to deal in this House with the lay-
    962
    ing down of penalties, we should not leave too much to the discretion of Courts of summary jurisdiction.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: The hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) produced an argument which was really astonishing when we read in a paper only last week that a woman was charged with stealing four pints of milk, and the magistrate, when summing up the case, said he could have inflicted a penalty of six months' imprisonment and that he had to take that into consideration.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I should like to point out that there is an Amendment dealing specifically with the question of penalties which has been marked by Mr. Speaker for selection. If the present discussion is to run entirely on the question of penalties, then we cannot have the same discussion twice over.
    Mr. MORRISON: I do not wish to carry it further except to make the point which was made in Committee upstairs, that in coming to a decision a magistrate takes into consideration the maximum penalty and then makes the penalty accordingly. That is the case which we are arguing from this side.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: May we not have a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the question submitted to him as to music halls, public halls, or charity organisations which not infrequently use comparatively small films I Are they all going to be called upon to take out licences? If so, there seems to be justification, not only on the part of Members on these benches but of those on the benches opposite, for hesitating before they give sanction to the imposition of such a penalty.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: With the permission of the House, I will reply to that. Perhaps hon. Members will look at Clause 31, where they will find on page 18 the definition that:
    "The expression 'theatre' includes any premises in respect of which a licence is required to be issued under the Cinematograph Act, 1909, or would be so required if the film were an inflammable film."
    That is the definition. Having regard to that, I can say that when the time comes —there is an Amendment later on the Paper dealing with penalties—I shall be prepared to reduce the penalty from £20 to £10.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'forty,' in line 20, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 136.

    Division No. 340.]

    AYES.

    [9.39 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Fleiden, E B.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Albery, Irving James

    Forrest, W.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Alexander, E. E (Leyton)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Gates, Percy

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Goff, Sir Park

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Grace, John

    Penny, Frederick George

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Berry, Sir George

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Philipson, Mabel

    Bethel, A.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Pilcher, G

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Radford, E. A.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Ramsden, E.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Harland, A.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Harney, E. A.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Remer, J. R.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Rye, F. G.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hills, Major John Waller

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Burman, J. B.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Calne, Gordon Hall

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Sandon, Lord

    Cassels, J. P

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth S.)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Cassels, J. D.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Clayton, G. C.

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Cope. Major William

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Couper, J. B.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Leigh, Sir John (Claphamj

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Long, Major Eric

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lynn, Sir R. J

    Templeton, W. P.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Dixey, A. C.

    McLean, Major A.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Drewe, C.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Waddington, R.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    England, Colonel A.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Meller, R. J.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Merriman, F. B.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Wells. S. R.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Womersley, W. J.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Withers, John James

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Captain Viscount Curzon and Cap-

    tain Margesson.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Sitch, Charles, H.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Smillie, Robert

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hardle, George D.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighiey)

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hayday, Arthur

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Hayes, John Henry

    Snell, Harry

    Baker, Walter

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

    Batey, Joseph

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Broad, F. A.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Bromfield, William

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Bromley, J.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sullivan. Joseph

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kennedy, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Thomson, Trevelvan (Middlesbre W.)

    Cape, Thomas

    Kirkwood, D

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Clowes, S.

    Lawson, John James

    Townend, A. E.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lee, F.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Varley, Frank B,

    Compton, Joseph

    Lowth, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Connolly, M.

    Lunn, William

    Wailhead, Richard C.

    Cove, W. G.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Mackinder, W.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    March, S.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Maxton, James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Dennison, R.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Duncan, C.

    Montague, Frederick

    Westwood, J.

    Dunnico, H.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Edge, Sir William

    Murnin, H.

    Whiteley, W.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Fenby, T. D.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Owen, Major G.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gillett, George M.

    Paling, W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Gosling, Harry

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Potts, John S.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Ritson, J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenall, T.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Wright, W.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Scrymgeour, E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Groves, T.

    Scurr, John

    Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles

    Grundy, T. W.

    Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

    Edwards.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Amendment made:
    In page 11, line 20, leave out the word "forty," and insert instead thereof the word "thirty-eight."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: We have an Amendment on the Paper, in page 11, line 33, to leave out the words
    "for each day on which he so carries on the business."
    This> is a point on which the Parliamentary Secretary made a suggestion just now. He agreed to reduce the maximum penalty from £20 to £10 per day. I said to the President of the Board of Trade yesterday that when we were discussing subsequent provisions of
    966
    the Bill much would depend upon the extent to which the spirit of sweet reasonableness was continued. I welcome the offer which has been made, but I still say that the reduction of the penalty from £20 to £10 per day does not meet the case at all.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have here a manuscript Amendment which should come before that of the hon. Member.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: We have not handed it in.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: That manuscript Amendment was handed in by the Government Whip after my hon. Friend had started his speech.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is not so. I had it by me while the last Division was in progress, but I am afraid I omitted to notice that it came before the Amendment of the hon. Member.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I beg to move, in page 11, line 33, to leave out the word "twenty," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
    Mr. ALEXANDER: It is just as convenient to discuss the point on this Amendment as on the other. The Government have here offered an Amendment to reduce the maximum fine from £20 to £10 per day. That does not meet our case at all. We can well understand that when the Government were defending the penalty laid down with regard to the renters, at a previous stage, they took the course they did, though we did not agree with them. We understood that the Government had something of a case, because they wanted to try to force foreign renters to have a business domicile in this country. In this case you are dealing with the poor and unfortunate British cinematograph exhibitor, and you are proposing a cumulative fine of £10 per day if he should merely forget to take out a licence costing one guinea. There is no other offence possible except that he forgets to take out a licence. It is quite unreasonable, in the case of the exhibitor, to lay down a cumulative penalty of such a kind for an offence which is purely one of forget-fulness. Would the President of the Board of Trade to continue to show the spirit of sweet reasonableness by retaining the £10 but deleting the words " for each day"? The £10 would then be the final penalty on failure to take out a guinea licence. It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to say that this is a maximum penalty. Many magistrates judge the seriousness of a case largely by the amount of the penalty laid down. If a maximum penalty of £l is laid down, they will say, " This cannot be a very serious crime, and we might reasonably impose a fine of 2s. 6d. or 5s.," but if you lay down a cumulative penalty that may be anything up to £50 or £200, the magistrates will say that it is a very serious offence and make the fine higher than would otherwise be the case.
    Mr. OLIVER: The penalty proposed in the Clause is out of all proportion to the paltry offence of forgetting to pay the sum of a guinea for a licence. The proposal is absurd. I do not see why special treatment should be meted out to this class of offender. Would it be asking too much for the President to recognise that for the first offence, at any rate, there should be a fixed maximum sum by way of penalty?
    Question, "That the word 'twenty' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' be there inserted in the Bill."
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope we may now have the views of the President of the Board of Trade on this question. This is really a question of whether you should heavily fine a man for not paying the tax on the due day. There is nothing else in it. Anyone can get a licence and no one can lose a licence. It is simply a question of whether on the due day you have paid for your licence. The only crime is that of depriving the right hon. Gentleman's Department for a few days of that guinea, which must be paid.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I understand this has been dealt with already in a very long Debate. I understood that the Ruling of the Chair was that a general discussion might take place on the main Clause but a discussion should not take place on this, though a vote could be taken—a very practical suggestion. It has been pointed out over and over again that this is a maximum penalty for a breach of the Act, and it has been said that if a man can show that what he has done is merely an accidental piece of forgetfulness no bench of magistrates is likely to inflict a fine.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: What else can it be?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: It may be a deliberate evasion of the law.
    Question put, "That the word 'ten' be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 251;; Noes, 134.

    Division No. 341.]

    AYES.

    [9.59 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Albery, Irving James

    Forrest, W.

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Gates, Percy

    Penny, Frederick George

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Grace, John

    Philipson, Mabel

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Pilcher, G.

    Beanmish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Radford, E. A.

    Berry, Sir George

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Bethel, A.

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Ramsden, E.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Gunston, Captain D. w.

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Remer, J. R.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Harland, A.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Ruggles-Brise- Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Rye, F. G.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Salmon, Major I.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Hilton, Cecil

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Sandon, Lord

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Savery, S. S.

    Burman, J. B.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hudson, R. s. (Cumb'I' nd, Whiteh'n)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Skelton, A. N.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Christie, J. A.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Couper, J. B.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Long, Major Eric

    Templeton, W. P.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Lumley, L. R.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Davidson, j.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Tinne, J. A.

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)

    MacIntyre, Ian

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    McLean, Major A.

    Waddington, R.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Dixey, A. C.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Drewe, C.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Meller. R. J.

    Wells, S. R.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Merriman, F. B.

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrympre-

    England, Colonel A.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    970

    971

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Womersley, W. J.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Major Cope and Captain Viscount

    Wood, Sir Klngslay (Woolwich, W.).

    Curzon.

    NOES.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Scurr, John

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Amnion, Charles George

    Hardie, George D.

    Smillie, Rober'

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Baker, Walter

    Hayes, John Henry

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Snell, Harry

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, G. H.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Broad, F. A.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Stephen, Campbell

    Bromfield, William

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Bromley, J.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Strauss, E. A.

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sullivan, J.

    Buchanan, G.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Kennedy, T.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Cape, Thomas

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M

    Thomson. Trevelvan (Middles., W.)

    Charleton, H C.

    Kirkwood, D

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Clowes, S.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lawson, John James

    Townend, A. E.

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lee, F.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Compton, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Connolly, M.

    Lowth, T.

    Viant, S. P.

    Cove, W. G.

    Lunn, William

    Wailhead, Richard C.

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Mackinder, W.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    MacLaren, Andrew

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Day, Colonel Harry

    March, S.

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Dennison, R.

    Maxton, James

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Duncan, C.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Dunnlco, H.

    Montague, Frederick

    Westwood, J.

    Edge, Sir William

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Murnin, H.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Fenby, T. D.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Gardner, J. P.

    Oliver, George Harold

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Owen, major G.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Gillett, George M.

    Palin, John Henry

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Gosling, Harry

    Paling, W.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attereliffe)

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Greenall, T.

    Potts, John S.

    Wright, W.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Ritson, J.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Groves, T.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charles

    Grundy, T. W.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Edwards.

    CLAUSE 21.—(Returns and records.)
    Mr. WALLHEAD: I beg to move, in page 12, line 16, at the end, to insert the words
    "(3) Every licensed exhibitor shall exhibit in connection with each registered film the registration, date, length, and whether British or foreign."
    I think this is an Amendment which will commend itself to the hon. Gentleman who is at present in charge of this Bill. Hon. Members opposite have expressed themselves as being quite confident that British films can hold their own against any in the world. They have told us that British films are quite as good as any others that can be produced. I expect that the hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment, but, if he does not, I should like him to say why the
    972
    public are not to know the source of the films that are being produced, for it seems to me to be a very important matter. After all, the Government are very keen on the question of merchandise marks, and on allowing the public to know the source or origin of everything they consume. Everything has been stamped. Even our eggs must be stamped, and, if eggs are to be marked, I do not see why films should not be marked. I expect the hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment. At any rate, I move it in the sure and certain hope that this modest little attempt on the part of the Opposition, who are usually supposed not to be patriotic, will be met in the spirit in which it is made, so that these supreme British products of ours shall at least be known for what they are, and that anyone who sees them shall

    973
    recognise them at once. We do not want dud films with a recent date. We want the date included, so that the public cannot be imposed upon. If the film bears its history on its face, we shall be quite satisfied. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will accept this Amendment in the spirit in which it is moved.
    Mr. GRIFFITHS: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The hon. Gentleman has provided me with many arguments, and I almost might say that out of the mouths of the Opposition we have heard so much of the bad productions that obviously it would not be advisable to mark them if they are as bad as they say they are. My reason for not wishing to mark these films is that nowhere in the Bill do we ask the renter or the exhibitor to exhibit the marking of films. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] If the hon. Member will allow me to proceed I will tell him why. In the first place it would mean that the exhibitor would have to exhibit the information on a separate film or on a lantern slide. Just think what it would mean to the ordinary exhibitor if he had to put on a separate show in order to give the information the hon. Gentleman thinks it right to give to the British public. I submit it is not of any interest to the British public that he should exhibit in connection with those films, the registration, date, length, and whether British or foreign. If hon. Gentlemen on those benches say: "Why should I be driven to see films I do not want to see," I would say that they are not interested in films at all, let alone being interested in the particulars the hon. Gentleman desires to be put into the Bill. It would be a very inconvenient thing for exhibitors to have to do. The main reason for not putting these particulars into the Bill is the absence of any good reason in favour of them. Furthermore, if the exhibitor did not give a special exhibition of these marks, either on a lantern slide or on a separate film, he would again be liable to very heavy penalties to which hon. Gentlemen so strongly object. I am afraid, therefore, that I cannot accept the Amendment.
    Colonel DAY: The speech of the hon. Gentleman shows how deplorable it is
    974
    for us to have to hear some of the explanations that are given, quite innocently but ignorantly. When the hon. Gentleman says that it will be necessary for lantern slides or some separate film to be used in order to make the announcement that the films are British, it shows how hopeless it is to expect any good from the Bill introduced by the Department that he represents. All people who have seen films know that the announcements are made in the film itself as a "forerunner" before the picture is shown. If they are so ashamed of letting the public know that these wonderful British films that are being produced really are British, we want to suggest to them that they should give the public the opportunity of going out if they do not want to see them.
    Many instances have been given that not only in Great Britain but in our Colonies it is a common occurrence for patrons before they go to see a cinema picture to ask one another: "Is it a British film?" If the answer is in the affirmative, they say: "Do not let us go there; let us go somewhere else." [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to say "Oh!" but what I have stated is a fact. I have heard it myself on many occasions, and, if hon. Members opposite had the courage to get up and say so, they could tell us that that has been the case among their own personal acquaintances. [Interruption.] I suggest that the hon. Members who are making those remarks are not picture patrons at all, or very seldom go to the cinema. In Committee we had a statement made by several hon. Members that they did not go to the pictures. One hon. Member said that he had only seen one cinema picture in many years, and I can tell the House that it was an American picture which he saw. If the Government think that these British films are going to be so good, and there have been so many super-films made during the last year, as the President of the Board of Trade told us, do not let us be ashamed of our own productions. The Government are continually saying: "Buy British goods." Then let the public know that these magnificent pictures which we are making are

    975
    British, and do not let us be ashamed of it.
    Major PRICE: The hon. Member for Central Southwark (Colonel Day), who is so anxious to advertise British films, knows that there is nothing to prevent anyone from saying what the film is, where it was made, and on what date, and all about it. Why should it be made compulsory in the Bill that something should be done which is already done in connection with the film? The House, I think, will agree that this Amendment is simply put forward as an excuse for delaying the passage of the Bill.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member opposite completely obliterates the speech made by the great expert in shipping who represents the Board of Trade. I have seen British films shown with the date of the film, and advertised as of British production. The great film companies always have in connection with their films certain preliminaries, giving the caste and telling whether it is of British production, of German production, a Metro-Goldwyn production and so on, and there is no reason why they should not do what is proposed in this Amendment. The Parliamentary Secretary does not appear to know anything about the put-
    ting together of a film. The other day, I wanted to give a lecture on the Navy to some schoolboys; not political at all, I went to a British company, which makes films, and said, "Have you some good films of the Fleet?" They showed me a great number and I picked out a few feet here and a few feet there, and while I smoked a cigarette they put together all the pieces that I had chosen, packed them in a tin box and I took them away and showed them to the schoolboys—it was at one of the public schools—and they were very pleased with them. The pictures were beautifully done as one of the British news features. The hon. Member for Central Southwards point is that we have not produced any number of feature films. There is no technical difficulty in carrying out what we suggest, and I think the Amendment might have been received with a little more consideration. The Board of Trade want us to mark herrings, eggs and so forth, so long as it is a form of protection for some British manufactured article, but they are not prepared to mark the British film. I have never seen the Board of Trade show up in a worse light than on this simple little Amendment.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 252.

    Division No. 342.]

    AYES.

    [10.21 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    England, Colonel A.

    Kennedy, T.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Amnion, Charles George

    Fenby, T. D.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Forrest, W.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Gardner, J. P.

    Lee, F.

    Baker, Walter

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Lindley, F. W.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Gillett, George M.

    Lowth, T.

    Batey, Joseph

    Gosling, Harry

    Lunn, William

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Mackinder, W.

    Broad, F. A.

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Bromfield, William

    Greenall, T.

    March, S.

    Bromley, J.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Maxton, James

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Buchanan, G

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Montague, Frederick

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Groves, T.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Cape, Thomas

    Grundy, T. W.

    Murnin, H.

    Charleton H. C.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Clowes, S.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Cluse, W. S.

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Owen, Major G.

    Compton, Joseph

    Hardie, George D.

    Palin, John Henry

    Connolly, M.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Paling, W.

    Cove, W. G.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Potts, John S.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Ritson, J.

    Dennison, R.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Duncan, C.

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Dunnlco, H.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Rose, Frank H.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Sutton, J. E.

    Westwood, J.

    Scurr, John

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Wilkinson, Ellen C.

    Smillie, Robert

    Townend, A. E.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon, C. P.

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighiey)

    Varley, Frank B.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanell)

    Smith, Rennle (Penistone)

    Viant, S. P.

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Snell, Harry

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffes)

    Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Wright, W.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Sullivan, J.

    Welsh, J. C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Albery, Irving James

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Dixey, A. C.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Applln, Colonel R. V. K.

    Drewe, C.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Edge, Sir William

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Ellis, R. G.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)

    Long, Major Eric

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

    Berry, Sir George

    Fermoy, Lord

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Bethel, A.

    Fielden, E. B.

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    McLean, Major A.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Mac Robert, Alexander M.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

    Gates, Percy

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Goff, Sir Park

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Meller, R. J.

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Grace, John

    Merriman, F. B.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Burman, J. B.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Campbell, E. T.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Harland, A.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth. S.)

    Haslam, Henry C.

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Christie, J. A.

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Phllipson, Mabel

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Pilcher, G.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hilton, Cecil

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Radford, E. A.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Couper, J. B.

    Hope, Capt. A. O J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Ramsden, E.

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Remer, J. R.

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Ropner, Major L.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

    Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Mine, Sir Edward M.

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    978

    979

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Savery, S. S.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Wells, S. R.

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Templeton, W. P.

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Shepperson, E. w.

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Skelton. A. N.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Tinne, J. A.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Waddington, R.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. w.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Major Cope and Mr. Penny.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    CLAUSE 23.—(Proceedings for failure to comply with the provisions as to quota.)
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I beg to move, in page 12, line 36, after the word "Any," to insert the words " person guilty of an."
    We feel strongly that the penalties set forth in this Clause are much too severe, and we desire, therefore, to insert these words in order later to move a subsequent Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Central Southwark (Colonel Day)—[in page 12, line 38, to leave out from the word "quota" to end of the Sub-section, and to insert instead thereof the words " shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds "]. If the President will reply on that now, I need not take any time in moving this.
    Colonel DAY: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I understand that what I am invited to do is not to reply on a legal or drafting question, but on the merits. I have no hesitation in replying with equal brevity,
    but, if I may say so, with equal firmness. This is an essential part of the Bill. If there is a deliberate failure or refusal to comply with the quota, either on the part of the renter or on the part of the exhibitor, undoubtedly .a fine not exceeding £100 for the renter or £50 for the exhibitor, on summary conviction, or a fine not exceeding £500—
    Colonel DAY: Why not a sentence of death?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: £500, in the discretion of the Court, is necessary, and I will tell hon. Members why. If you get a foreign owner of a cinema—
    Colonel DAY: A Russian!
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Perhaps many hon. Members opposite would prefer a Russian, but I say a foreign owner, whose deliberate intention is not to comply with the quota, unless you have substantial penalties, that man can fly in the face of the law.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 118; Noes, 267.

    Division No. 343.]

    AYES.

    [10.34 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

    Clowes, S.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Compton, Joseph

    Groves, T.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Connolly, M.

    Grundy, T. W.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Hall, F. (York. W.R., Normanton)

    Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Baker, Walter

    Dennison, R.

    Hardle, George D.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Duncan, C.

    Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

    Batey, Joseph

    Dunnico, H.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Broad, F. A.

    Gardner, J, P.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

    Bromfield, William

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Bromley, J.

    Gillett, George M.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Gosling, Harry

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Buchanan, G.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

    Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

    Kelly, W. T.

    Cape, Thomas

    Greenall, T.

    Kennedy, T.

    Charlcton, H. C.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Kirkwood, D.

    Ritson, J.

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Lansbury, George

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

    Varley, Frank B.

    Lawrence, Susan

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

    Viant, S. P.

    Lee, F.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lindley, F. w.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Lowth, T.

    Scurr, John

    Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

    Lunn, William

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Wellock, Wilfred

    Mackinder, W.

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Smillie. Robert

    Westwood, J.

    March, S.

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Maxton, James

    Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

    Whiteley, W.

    Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

    Snell, Harry

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Montague, Frederick

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Stamford, T. W.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Murnin, H.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Sullivan, J.

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Palin, John Henry

    Sutton, J. E.

    Wright, W.

    Paling, W.

    Taylor, R. A.

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Tinker, John Joseph

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Potts, John S.

    Townend, A. E.

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

    Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

    Albery, Irving James

    Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

    Hilton, Cecil

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

    Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Davies, Dr. Vernon

    Hopkins, J. W. W.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

    Banks, Reginald Mitchell

    Dawson, Sir Phillip

    Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

    Barclay-Harvey. C. M.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Dixey, A. C.

    Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

    Barnston, Major Sir Harry

    Drewe, C.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Eden, Captain Anthony

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Edge, Sir William

    Huntingfield, Lord

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

    Bethel, A.

    Elliot, Major Walter E.

    Inskip, Sir Thamas Walker H.

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Birchall, Major J. Dtarman

    England, Colonel A.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

    Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

    Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    King, Commodore Henry Douglas

    Braithwaite, Major A. N.

    Falie, Sir Bertram G.

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

    Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Fenby, T. D.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Fermoy, Lord

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Fielden, E. B.

    Loder, J. de V.

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Long, Major Eric

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Forrest, W.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vers

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William james

    Fraser, Captain Ian

    Lynn, Sir R. J.

    Burman, J. B.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Mac Andrew, Major Charles Glen

    Burton, Colonel H. W.

    Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Gates, Percy

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Calne, Gordon Hall

    Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

    Maclntyre, Ian

    Campbell, E. T.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    McLean, Major A.

    Cassels, J. D.

    Goff, Sir Park

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

    Grace, John

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

    Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Grant, Sir J. A.

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

    Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K

    Christie, J. A.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Meller, R. J.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Merriman, F. B.

    Clayton, G. C.

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)

    Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

    Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Harland, A.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Cope, Major William

    Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Couper, J. B.

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Courtauld, Major J. S.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Murchison, Sir Kenneth

    Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

    Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

    Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

    Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    982

    983

    Neville, Sir Reginald J.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)

    Newton, Sir 0. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Sandon, Lord

    Tinne, J. A.

    Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Savery, S. S.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

    Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

    Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

    Waddington, R.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

    Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

    Owen, Major G.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Philipson, Mabel

    Skelton, A. N.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Pilcher, G.

    Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

    Power, Sir John Cecil

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Smithers, Waldron

    Wells, S. R

    Radford, E. A.

    Somervilie, A. A. (Windsor)

    White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

    Raine, Sir Walter

    Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Ramsden, E.

    Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

    Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

    Rawson, Sir Cooper

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

    Remer, J. R.

    Strauss, E. A.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Ropner, Major L.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

    Styles, Captain H. Walter

    Womersley, W. J.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

    Rye, F. G.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Salmon, Major I.

    Templeton, W. P.

    Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Sandeman, N. Stewart

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.

    Sanders, Sir Robert A.

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Sir C. OMAN: I beg to move, in page 13, line 5, at the end, to insert the words:
    "(2) In the case of a conviction on indictment, the court, in addition to imposing any such fine as aforesaid,—
    (a) where the offender is a renter, may on a third offence order that his licence he revoked, and may order that no licence shall be issued to him, or to any person with whom he is financially associated, or to any person who acquires his business, or to any person who took part in the management of his business and was knowingly a party to the offence, for such period in each case as may be specified in the order;
    Provided that where any such order is made the order shall not operate so as to prevent the renter carrying out for a period not exceeding six months any obligations under an}' contract entered into by him before the institution of the proceedings;
    (b) where the offender is an exhibitor may on a third offence order his licence under this Act in respect of the theatre with respect to which the offence was committed to be revoked, and may order that for such period in each case as may be specified in the order no licence in respect of that theatre shall be issued to him or to any person with whom he is financially associated, or to any person who took part in the management of his business and was knowingly a party to the offence, or to any person whose licence in respect of any theatre has been revoked during the twelve months previous to the date of the conviction."
    This Amendment is in strict consonance with the words which the Minister uttered five minutes ago; that is to say, it to deal with wealthy and contuma-
    984
    cious persons or associations. There is not the slightest doubt that there is deliberate opposition to this Bill among a certain class of wealthy proprietors of picture palaces. There is also not the slightest doubt that there is a strong foreign opposition to this Bill, which cloaks itself in many ways. For example, it cloaks itself in the strange assertion we heard from the opposite benches 10 minutes ago of an acquaintance, as far as I could gather, of a certain hon. Member on the other side of the House who dislikes British films qua British films and never goes to see them. I think I need quote nothing more than that to show that there is a very strong organisation at large against this Bill. This Amendment is intended to deal not with careless or casual offenders, but with contumacious offenders. It will be noticed that any person, before he comes under this Clause, must have offended three times. The dog is to be allowed his bite, even his second bite; but at the third bite he is to be got rid of. It is useless to impose a fine of £50 or even £100 upon very wealthy associations. The way in which we shall get at these associations is by cancelling the licences of responsible persons, and this very simple little Amendment which my hon. Friends and I have brought forward is intended to go for the individual who will feel it and not for the long purse of an association or a very wealthy man, to whom a penalty of £50 or £100 means nothing.
    Viscount SANDON: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I would like to remind the President of the Board of Trade that these words, in exactly the same form, were in the original Bill; therefore he must have thought the object of the Amendment desirable, otherwise they would not have been inserted. Since then we have altered it to the extent of not applying it until there has been a third offence, so as to ease the susceptibilities of bon. Gentlemen opposite, and so I hope the right hon. Gentleman will stick to his original conviction and see that no loophole is left in the Bill.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: When this Amendment was discussed in Committee, I said that I would leave it to a free vote of the Committee, and I think the only fair thing to do now is to leave it to a free vote of the House. It is a matter upon which the House can give as good an opinion as anyone else. To wealthy corporations these penalties may not be a very great deterrent, but the power to take away a licence means taking away from a man the whole of his business. That power ought not to be given to any tribunal which is not fully experienced. I understand that this penalty can only operate upon indictment and by the decision of a Judge of the High Court. I thought it was only fair to place those considerations before the House, and inform hon. Members what the history of this Clause was in Committee. With those few words, I will leave the Amendment to the decision of the House.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope hon. Members will not vote in favour of this proposal. This Clause in the original Bill raised the bitterest opposition from the cinema owners who are not big corporations. The overwhelming majority of the owners who will take out licences under this Bill are not wealthy corporations but people struggling for a livelihood. It is perfectly well known that many of the provincial cinemas are losing money, and are not making anything like the profits which were being made by the big cinemas in London some few years ago. For the third offence these people are to be deprived of their licence, and that means that they will be deprived of their livelihood, the goodwill they have built up in the cinema, and the capital which they have put into pic-
    986
    ture palaces. Everything will have to be sold at a loss, and these people will have to get out of the business. That is a very serious penalty to inflict upon people who have committed these offences. If they were serious offences it might be different, but one of the offences is not taking out the licence, and not showing the quota. Really it means not obeying the provisions of a new Bill which is not in the least understood by the cinema trade, and is not understood even by the Department in charge of the Bill. It is not an easy Bill to understand. It is a Measure which interferes with normal legal contracts. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Bill says 'May be liable.'"] For the third offence a man may be deprived of his licence.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I agree that this question is a very important one. The right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has just stated that this penalty can be imposed for failing to take out a licence or not complying with the quota. What is now proposed does not relate to the taking out of a licence, but only to the quota.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I really cannot go through all the offences. The House will recollect that under the first part of the Bill we have made a number of the transactions illegal which are perfectly legal in the normal way of business, and you are going to assume that all these people will suddenly acquire a knowledge of what is legal and what is illegal.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman must not deceive the House. What is now proposed only applies to quota offences, and to nothing else.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: It applies to the general part of the Bill, and this is the only place where punishment for these offences is specially singled out.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Clause says
    "Any offence of failing to comply with the provisions of this Part of this Act as to the renters' quota or exhibitors' quota."
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am glad to hear that. Surely the renters' and the exhibitors' quota is connected with matters of agreement. I understand now that it is only a question of not show-

    987
    ing the quota. If these unfortunate exhibitors are unable to show, not only the exact percentage attributable to the year, they are not able to get the exemption; they commit an offence and expose themselves to the risk of losing their licence. I know it is held that no Judge of the High Court would deprive a man of his business without justification, but, if you put into an Act that a man may have his licence taken away, then the question will be dealt with in the same way as you treat public house licences. This Amendment is to be left to the open vote of the House, and I am sorry to say that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade is not going to vote. If this penalty Clause is to be put back into the Bill, I feel certain that, within the next few weeks, hon. Members on both sides of the House will regret the fact that there will be put back into this Bill a penalising Clause which will be an extraordinary hardship on a large and deserving class.
    Sir C. OMAN rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
    Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: I do not think that we should pay much attention to the plea which has been made about the poor man who is not making money out of his business. If he is not making money out of it, he will not remain in the business. The real point is this: If a man is fit to be in business and to make a living out of it, surely he is fit to take sufficient care and precaution to see that he does not commit this particular quota offence three times over. If that be the case, there is nothing unreasonable in this Amendment, but there is very strong reason for it. I object strongly—and I am quite sure that hon. Members opposite would object strongly in many cases and on general principles—to our passing laws in this country which can be laughed at. It is no use passing a law enacting a certain thing if the only way in which we prepose to enforce it is to inflict a fine which most of the offenders would laugh at. £500 is a fine which most of the real offenders will laugh at, while the small man, for whom
    988
    the right hon. Gentleman opposite pleads, will take care he does not run risks.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: I want to raise an entirely different point. It appears to me this Bill is reaching the end of its Report stage in the same slipshod way in which it has been carried throughout. The right hon. Gentleman has just got up and announced to the House that he proposes to leave this to a free vote of the House, although he knows perfectly well that at least 70 per cent, of the Members have had no opportunity of examining this question in detail and will be voting blindly upon it. Further, only one-half of the Members who will take part in the Division are in the House, and the others will have had no idea of what attitude they are going to take up.
    There is another consideration. The right hon. Gentleman was candid enough to remind us that this question was discussed exhaustively in Committee upstairs, and that he allowed it to be put to a free vote of the Committee. On that Committee there was an overwhelming majority of his own supporters, and when it was left to that free vote it was decided by an overwhelming majority that the Amendment now proposed to be inserted should be deleted. Now he proposes, in the last minutes of the discussion, instead of abiding by the decision given by the Members of his own party in Committee, to say that that1 shall all go for nothing, and that he will leave it to a free vote of the House. That is a slipshod way of doing the business of the country.
    Sir C. OMAN rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
    Mr. MORRISON: The right hon. Gentleman ought to have been candid enough to have told the House that a majority of Members of his own party upstairs, after that exhaustive discussion, came to that conclusion on the Amendment now before us, and he ought to have urged the Members of his own party to support the Bill as it stands now, and not to go out of the way and upset the decision come to after consider-

    989
    able discussion. It is very unsatisfactory. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I have a right to speak on this question, having spent 4½ months in Committee upstairs, and most of the time in listening without speaking.
    Captain WATERHOUSE rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
    Mr. MORRISON: A decision is now to be given without an opportunity for the House to give detailed consideration to the matter. There were only six Members of the Committee who supported the Amendment now being moved. The Ayes were six, and the Noes 23.
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
    Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
    The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.

  COAL REMOVAL, LANARK (CONVICTIONS).
  Whereupon Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the Order of the House of 8th November, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Mr. D. GRAHAM: It is not with pleasure that I rise to draw attention to a matter which concerns the Secretary of State for Scotland, but the circumstances are such as to make it necessary to raise the matter here. On 24th October, in the J. P. Court at Hamilton, a number of persons were charged with stealing coal, and the presiding justices, one of whom is notorious for his partisanship—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am not sure that I caught that expression, but we do not allow here any reflections to be made against His Majesty's Judges except on a proper Motion.
  Mr. GRAHAM: I do not seek to cast any reflection upon them at all; but the Secretary of State might advise those who occupy the position of Judges in the J. P. Courts to carry out the law.
  990
  In this case a number of persons were accused. It is a misuse of the English language to describe what they were charged with as stealing coal. I have yet to learn that a man would be guilty of stealing coal if he took up a bit of dirt or stone from the street. Some of these men were at a "bing" where the refuse from a pit was tumbled over. At such places occasionally a piece of coal comes along with the dirt. They were at this place picking up the little bits of coal they could get. They were brought to the Court and charged with stealing coal. I submit that there was no evidence to support such a charge. The Justices imposed a penalty, without the option of a fine; in one case of 40 days, in two cases of 20 days, in one case of 14 days, and in two cases of 10 days. The right hon. Gentleman has the facts before him and he will be able to enlighten the House on that matter.
  The question about which I was in correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman was the question of two at least of these men who had never been accused of any crime whatever on any previous occasion. They were first offenders, and they were entitled to the benefit of the First Offenders Act. But the justices sentenced them to 10 days' imprisonment. I do not know whether you, Sir, would consider it a proper thing to say inside the House, but I am afraid the vast majority of the people in the locality from which I and these men come look upon it as a most monstrous act on the part of the bench; and I want to put it quite frankly to the Secretary of State that the officers of the Court would not approve of the conduct of the presiding justices, and it is incorrect to say in the answer given me that there was any prevalent coal-stealing in the district. They were taking coal from a dirt bank. If it were a case of taking it from a place where it was being stacked for the purpose of sale I could understand the attitude of the justices, though I should not agree with the sentences imposed. It is an absolute misuse of words to describe it as stealing coal at all. I am very much surprised, in view of the facts that the right hon. Gentleman must have got from the officials of the Court, that he should send me, on 12th November, a matter of weeks after the date when I first communicated with him, a letter saying he was sorry

  991
  he could do nothing as he held there was not sufficient ground to advise any interference with the sentence on these lads who for the first time in their lives found themselves inside a prison for no crime at all. I am afraid there is a considerable tendency on the part of certain of the police authorities in Lanark to manufacture crime rather than try to prevent it, and it looks as if some policemen are only able to get promotion by bringing more or less innocent people into the Court.
  There has been a very considerable amount of feeling in regard to this matter on the part of quite as decent people as those present in the House to-night, who are very much incensed that young men whose character is as clear of real crime as anyone in the locality should have been so unceremoniously sent to prison without even the option of a fine. A fine would have been a very difficult thing to get under the circumstances that obtain in that area, but I am satisfied that the ordinary members of the community, who are not related to these lads, would have been perfectly willing to contribute their quota to the full extent of their ability to pay the fine, but a fine was not even suggested. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any intention on the part of the Scottish Office to draw the attention of the Lanarkshire Courts to the fact that there is a First Offenders Act on the Statute Book and that it would be in the interests of the community as a whole and probably go a long way to prevent crime if that fact were kept constantly in front of the magistrates.
  In this case, there is no doubt at all in my own mind—and I do not think there is any doubt in the minds of those who come in close contact with the local officers of the Court—that they were very much surprised, to say the least of it, at the severity of the sentences that were inflicted. One man was sent to prison for 40 days. It was not for stealing coal at all. There was no such thing as stealing coal. There is no need for any miners to steal coal. If they are in work, they get their coal comparatively cheap. As I stated to the right hon. Gentleman on one of the occasions that I met him 1 repeat to the House, that practically the only thing we can get in a colliery home is a good fire. The coal is paid for and
  992
  not stolen. These men were not guilty of the crime alleged against them, and even if they were the sentences were out of all proportion to the nature of the offence. I should be very pleased even now if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to remit at least a considerable part of the sentence passed upon the man who is serving 40 days imprisonment. He has still time, I think, to remit some part of the sentence of the men who received 20 days. I hope he will take a more lenient view of the matter than he has done up to the present time.
  Mr SULLIVAN: I do not usually take part in discussions of this kind, but on this occasion I want to support my colleague, the Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham). I have the honour to sit on the bench when I get an opportunity, and I have a fair knowledge of the law. The general instructions that we act upon as a rule are to try and keep young people from going to prison. They receive the services of a probationary officer, and, if they are fined, there is no question of sending them to serve a sentence. The probationary officer has to assist them with advice and help them to make arrangements with regard to the payment of the fine. During last year when feeling was very high persons were brought before the Court for stealing coal when there had been no coal in the country for months. Some of the alleged offences were in respect of dump heaps near the collieries from which the people, in their desperation, were taking fuel. Probably if they were successful they were able to obtain a bit of fire, but if they appeared in Court it was a £3 fine, and in some cases even more. I know of cases where children were put into the cells practically against the instructions that we had received. At my own place, 17 of them had to be accommodated because there was no other provision for them. When I read in the newspapers of the sentences that had been meted out at Hamilton I was thunderstruck, because I like to retain some respect for the people who administer the law. It is much better to keep young people outside the influence of prison.
  There is no justification whatever for sending people to gaol without the option of a fine for a crime of this kind. That is my view, although all on the bench may not see alike. I blame the

  993
  right hon. Gentleman who is supposed to stand up for Scotland in this House. We have had occasion to meet him at various times, and he has listened very carefully to what we have had to say, and has told us that he will consider it, but the result, so far as we are concerned, could have been got just as readily without our having attempted to see him. I do not like to say hard things, but it is sometimes necessary to do so. I would say to him, "You had predecessors in that office who were always helpful to men like my colleague and myself who have been desirous of keeping the peace. Those predecessors have always helped, and when we made an appeal to them, at any rate, we got some consideration. On this occasion you have attempted to defend something which no lawyer in the country can defend and no hon. Member on the other side would attempt to defend. You sit there as representing the country from which we come, and you try to make the law as harsh as possible, much harsher than it requires to be." I hope the House will teach the right hon. Gentleman who has charge of the Scottish Department that there is something more needed than sentences of this kind Such sentences do no good. You are only making criminals, when you ought to keep the criminal taint from the people.
  Mr. WELSH: It may not be in the knowledge of many hon. Members opposite that these débris heaps around the pits are the accumulations of what we call the ripping underground. As there is no accommodation for the débris underground it is sent to the surface and pieces of coal are annexed to it. The collieries which keep these débris heaps piled up do so in the right of the masses in the locality, and since the unemployment problem has become acute many of our people have secreted these heaps and in that way have furnished themselves with a fire during the cold weather. It cannot be said—I do not think any hon. Member of this House would say—in those cases that any one searching these debris heaps was stealing coal. For years and years, long before I was born, it was always recognised that such people were not interfered with. Even if they had not a right to go to these heaps, they were allowed to do so during periods of
  994
  depression and difficulty and to rake together an odd hundredweight of coal which they used for domestic purposes. On occasion when they gathered an odd hundredweight of coal and sold it, they eked out an existence which could not have been got otherwise. That is the position in regard to the cases in question, and to brand it as a crime is not only a misuse of terms as the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) said, but it becomes much worse when you get the whole judicial system applying it in the way of a crime. I put it to the House that this is a case in which the right hon. Gentleman could very well exercise clemency, because there is no crime. We deny that it is a crime.
  We are not justifying anyone who indulges in crime in any way, and we do not seek to whitewash anyone guilty of criminal practices, but in this case there was absolutely no shadow of crime attached to the individuals who have been sentenced, and who are undergoing sentence at the present time. I hope that even now an appeal may be made to the right hon. Gentleman to exercise his discretion and leniency towards the individuals who have been put in prison for the first time, and that he will do so and remove anxiety from the minds of those who belong to them at home.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): I am sensible of the feelings which animate hon. Members upon subjects of this kind, but I confess that I am a little surprised they should ask this House to believe that the actions for which this punishment was inflicted were in fact, as they have stated and desire the House to believe, not breaking the law as it is understood. It is said that this removal of coal, even if it is from the dump, heap of the colliery, is not a crime, and, in the words which have been used, is not really stealing. I know the colliery districts very well; I am also quite aware of the circumstances in which in some cases people are allowed to remove some of this coal from these dumps, but I want the House to understand that in the cases we are dealing with complaints from the colliery management have been made to the police, and the police, in the exercise of their duty, have tried to prevent what, in the opinion of the public, was becoming a public nuisance.
  Mr. MAXTON: What section of the public?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: This custom has grown up and increased to such an extent that not only was the coal removed, but it led to the removal actually of the timber supports to the necessary machinery by which the material brought up from the bottom of the mine was dumped on to the heap.
  Mr. D. GRAHAM: Was that stated?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: It was stated in the Court by the colliery manager making the complaint, and the fact was brought out that working parties had to be sent from the mine in order to replace the material which was removed from the actual timber. The fact remains that in all these cases, particularly in one or two, several previous convictions were on record against these individuals for the theft of coal. Take the case of James Maelntyre, aged 26, who was accused of the offence of stealing coal and sentenced to 40 days. There were two previous convictions for breaches of the peace against him; of theft by house breaking and theft of coal. Take the case of William Macdonald, aged 26, who was sentenced to 21 days. He had two previous convictions for theft by house breaking. Take the case of Robert Thomson, aged 50, he had a previous conviction for theft against him.
  Mr. D. GRAHAM: Will the Secretary of State tell me whether he made an inquiry as to whether Thompson was there at all? A statement was made that he was not.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: As I understand it was proved—
  Mr. D. GRAHAM: It was not.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am in a, position of having to take the report of the Court and the evidence produced before the Court—I am not in a position to say anything beyond the report—proved to the satisfaction of the Court that he was there.
  I come to the other cases where previous convictions were recorded. I would be the first to say that in the case of a first offence it is right and desirable that every effort should be made to put into operation the First Offenders Act, and the Court's attention
  996
  has been drawn to the necessity of doing so. In this case the misfortune has been that the same kind of language and attitude which hon. Members have adopted was pursued by these men who deliberately said that it was no crime. Complaints having increased and previous convictions and leniency exercised in dealing with such cases having failed—
  Mr. GRAHAM: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that these two young men were sent to prison for language and not on the charge of stealing coal?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not suggest-ting anything of the kind, but I am suggesting that, in addition to the fact that these men committed this crime, they were clearly endeavouring to put forward the plea' that it was no crime. In addition to that the Court had exercised leniency in previous cases.
  Mr. SULLIVAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman attempting to defend the imprisonment of two young men for the alleged theft of coal when it was their first offence? He is the only man in Britain who would do it. No man on the Government Front Bench would do it.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: The hon. Gentleman must understand that these problems are dealt with by the local Court.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: They are a lot of Tories and class judges.
  Sir J. GILMOUR: They had before them the necessity of bringing home to these people what they had not previously been able to bring home to them by leniency, and they had to do so by a greater severity in the sentences. The Court were aware of the necessity of giving an advantage to first offenders because in two cases they did so.
  Mr. GRAHAM: Two girls?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes. That was the judgment of the Court. I have made as careful inquiry into this matter as I could. I agree that wherever it is possible and right, first offenders should be given the advantage of the procedure which we would all desire to see, but when hon. Members ask me and ask

  997
  this House to accept the view that the removal of the coal from these buildings, and the trespass, and the possible danger and damage to colliery property, is not an offence against the law and should not be dealt with by the Courts, they ask me to believe something which I cannot entertain, and I want hon. Members frankly to understand that, however anxious I am to meet them in these matters, or to discuss these problems with them, they cannot expect me to give these cases, after the evidence which has been put before me, after the necessity for enforcing the law is apparent—
  Mr. GRAHAM: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the benefit of the evidence that has been submitted to him?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: All I can say is that in the report which the Court gave to me they assured me in the plainest terms
  998
  that they had taken into consideration all these things. They say:
  "The magistrates have always been most anxious to give probation and also the option of money penalties in first offences and to persons who we are satisfied do not realise the serious nature of the offence committed by them. We feel ourselves compelled in cases such as these to deal with offenders more severely in respect that coal stealing had been most prevalent in this district for a very long time, and that prosecutions have taken place and sentences been inflicted almost daily, and published in the newspapers weekly for a very long time. No one can therefore plead ignorance of the taking of coal from railway bings and wagons."
  Mr. GRAHAM: From wagons!
  Sir J. GILMOUR: Not in these particular cases, but the taking of coal from bings and wagons has been prevalent—
  It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put.

POST OFFICE.
  WAGES (ARBITRATION AWARD).
  WAGES (ARBITRATION AWARD).
  NATIONAL FEDERATION OF POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH CLERKS.
  NATIONAL FEDERATION OF POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH CLERKS.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.
  TELEPHONE KIOSKS.
  TELEPHONE KIOSKS.
  CHURCH HILL ESTATE, WEDNESBURY (FACILITIES).
  CHURCH HILL ESTATE, WEDNESBURY (FACILITIES).
  TELEPHONISTS, LEEDS (PROMOTION).
  TELEPHONISTS, LEEDS (PROMOTION).
  STAMP-SELLING MACHINES.
  STAMP-SELLING MACHINES.
  TELEGRAPH SERVICE (STATISTICS).
  TELEGRAPH SERVICE (STATISTICS).
  TRANS-ATLANTIC AND CONTINENTAL TELEPHONE SERVICE.
  TRANS-ATLANTIC AND CONTINENTAL TELEPHONE SERVICE.
TRANSPORT.
  PEDESTRIANS.
  PEDESTRIANS.
  MOTOR-CAR TAXATION.
  MOTOR-CAR TAXATION.
  NEW GLASGOW-EDINBURGH ROAD.
  NEW GLASGOW-EDINBURGH ROAD.
  ROADS (EXPENDITURE).
  ROADS (EXPENDITURE).
  RAILWAY FACILITIES, SOUTH-EAST LONDON.
  RAILWAY FACILITIES, SOUTH-EAST LONDON.
  COAL TRAFFIC, LONDON.
  COAL TRAFFIC, LONDON.
  ANNIESLAND-DUNTOCHER BOULEVARD.
  ANNIESLAND-DUNTOCHER BOULEVARD.
  COLOURED LIGHTS.
  COLOURED LIGHTS.
  CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD.
  CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD.
  OYSTERS (PRICE).
  OYSTERS (PRICE).
  MEAT PRICES.
  MEAT PRICES.
  ANGLO-RUSSIAN TRADE.
  ANGLO-RUSSIAN TRADE.
LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
  IMPORT AND EXPORT RESTRICTIONS (CONVENTION).
  IMPORT AND EXPORT RESTRICTIONS (CONVENTION).
  BULGARIA AND YUGOSLAVIA.
  BULGARIA AND YUGOSLAVIA.
  MR. WALTER CARVAJAL.
  MR. WALTER CARVAJAL.
  ANGLO-SPANISH RELATIONS.
  ANGLO-SPANISH RELATIONS.
  TOWN PLANNING.
  TOWN PLANNING.
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
  TUBERCULOSIS (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
  TUBERCULOSIS (VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS).
  HOLLESLEY BAY LABOUR COLONY.
  HOLLESLEY BAY LABOUR COLONY.
  LUNESIDE SANATORIUM, LANCASTER (FLOODING).
  LUNESIDE SANATORIUM, LANCASTER (FLOODING).
  FARINGDON RURAL DISTRICT (SANITARY INSPECTOR'S SALARY).
  FARINGDON RURAL DISTRICT (SANITARY INSPECTOR'S SALARY).
  DESTITUTE WAYFARERS (RELIEF).
  DESTITUTE WAYFARERS (RELIEF).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  BENEFIT DISALLOWED.
  BENEFIT DISALLOWED.
  EXCHANGE FACILITIES.
  EXCHANGE FACILITIES.
  EXTENDED BENEFIT (CLAIMS).
  EXTENDED BENEFIT (CLAIMS).
  TEXTILE TRADE, WEST RIDING.
  TEXTILE TRADE, WEST RIDING.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (TEMPORARY WOMEN CLERKS).
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (TEMPORARY WOMEN CLERKS).
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  BETTING DUTY.
  BETTING DUTY.
AGRICULTURE.
  Financial Relief.
  Financial Relief.
  MEAT (CONSUMPTION, UNITED KINGDOM).
  MEAT (CONSUMPTION, UNITED KINGDOM).
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  SHEEP-DIPS.
  SHEEP-DIPS.
  FOREIGN PORK.
  FOREIGN PORK.
  AFFORESTATION, WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE.
  AFFORESTATION, WALES AND MONMOUTHSHIRE.
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
EDUCATION.
  ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (CONSTRUCTION).
  ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (CONSTRUCTION).
  PROVISION OF MEALS, SCHOOLS.
  PROVISION OF MEALS, SCHOOLS.
  MENTAL DEFICIENCY BILL.
  MENTAL DEFICIENCY BILL.
  JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) ACT.
  JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) ACT.
  VAGEANCY ACTS (OFFENCES, STATISTICS).
  VAGEANCY ACTS (OFFENCES, STATISTICS).
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION).
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION).
  MOHAMMEDAN RELIGION (ATTACKS).
  MOHAMMEDAN RELIGION (ATTACKS).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (STATUTORY COMMISSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I made it plain on an earlier occasion in the Session, and I think with the agreement of all your Lordships, that the very elaborate debate which evidently must take place upon the subject of the proposed Indian Commission could most conveniently be taken when the assent of Parliament was asked to the personnel of that Commission. It would, therefore, be improper far me to-night to attempt in any way to anticipate a discussion which must from the nature of the case be of the highest importance. To-night, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I have only to remind your Lordships that it was originally contemplated in the Government of India Act that at a period of ten years there should be appointed a Commission to examine the progress which had been made and generally to report to Parliament upon the existing situation. It is hardly necessary to point out that there was no special magic in the period of ten years. One may assume that it was adopted as a convenient period affording sufficient time for the instruction of those whose duty it might be to re-examine the whole situation.
Since my accession three years ago to the office which I now hold I have been greatly pressed in many quarters to accelerate the appointment of the Commission. It did not seem to me and to my responsible advisers in India that the atmosphere of the moment when these appeals, or I should perhaps say these demands, were put forward, was such as to afford much encouragement to those who were invited to make a change in this regard; and accordingly up to the
46
present no change had been proposed. There was never on principle any strong view that a period so fixed must necessarily receive pedantic adherence. I do not wish to exaggerate such encouraging tendencies as have manifested themselves in India in the course of the last two or three years; but such tendencies there have been. There has been a growing realisation in my judgment that the policy of non-co-operation was not in itself very happily conceived, nor likely to create in this country a general impression that those who were unwilling to co-operate in working the existing Constitution had fully established their case for an acceleration of the moment at which the terms of that Constitution were to be re-examined.
There has been unquestionably in the last two or three years a change of tone and temper in India, and the changes which it has been my duty closely to study—I exclude the communal issue, which is a separate issue from the generalisation which I attempt—have nearly all been in the direction of an improved relationship. I need hardly say that I am not discussing this afternoon the manifestations of opinion in India with which we have become familiar in the columns of the newspapers in the last few days. It will be my duty very carefully and without any heat or resentment, but equally without any exaggeration, to examine closely the opinion which is entertained in India in relation to the present proposals of the Government and to appraise its value and its importance. To-day I have merely to justify, if it needs justification, the view which has been taken by the Government and long pressed upon them by others that the moment has arrived at which the appointment of this Commission might suitably and without danger to the public interest be accelerated. I do not hold it necessary to attempt any argumentative justification of this proposal because, so far as I am aware, whatever differences of opinion may exist in the three Parties of the State upon other points, all are agreed that the moment has arrived when we may usefully approach the greatest constitutional problem which has faced the statesmen of this country for many generations. If, contrary to my expectations, any apprehension or objection should be entertained in any quarter in your Lordships, House, I will of course

47
to the best of my ability endeavour to give such explanations as may occur to me or seem to be required.
I have one other observation to make at this stage. It is obviously very desirable, if only to clear the air, that at the earliest possible moment the discussion should take place in both Houses upon the main and very grave principles which are involved in this matter. I confess I think it is so important that the explanations should be publicly given at an early moment of the grounds which have led the Government to make the particular proposals which will soon require discussion, that I was at one moment greatly tempted to attempt such exposition and justification as I was capable of outside Parliament—Parliamentary opportunity there was obviously none—but I could not reconcile it with my duty to your Lordships' House that a statement of this constitutional importance, involving issues and contingencies so grave, should be made elsewhere than in Parliament. Having omitted to take such an opportunity, may I mast earnestly impress upon your Lordships the extreme importance of holding this debate at the earliest possible moment of which our Parliamentary arrangements will allow. With that object I have spoken privately to my noble friends Lord Haldane and Lord Beauchamp, and I would ask the indulgence of the House (and I think I shall not ask in vain) in order that in the course of the present week we may take the two remaining stages of the Bill, if your Lordships give it a Second Reading to-day, upon successive days. I am encouraged to believe that, subject to the paramount Parliamentary obligations imposed upon another place, every facility will be given to the rapid progress of this Bill in another place, and I hope it may be possible within not very many days to place the whole matter before your Lordships with the elaboration which it undoubtedly requires. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Birkenhead.)
LORD OLIVIER: My Lords, we who are upon this Bench unreservedly support this Bill; unreservedly, that is, in so far as its own content is concerned, and with full reservation, as the noble and learned Earl perfectly understands,
48
with regard to any comments we may make upon the policy of the Committee or its proceedings as adumbrated. I think the noble Earl was not quite so happy as he might have been in giving your Lordships some reason why he thought the time had come when we should support this Bill, beyond indicating that he thought Indian affairs had shown an improved complexion and that greater co-operation was being given. I do not think either that those are the reasons which should justify or the absence of those reasons should negative the necessity for taking the earliest possible opportunity to appoint this Commission. As the noble Earl has said, it has been pressed upon the Secretary of State for India for quite a number of years now—since, I think, 1923—that the time had come when the Statutory Commission should be appointed. The view has been taken—it was taken by the late Mr. Montagu—by that there was nothing which prevented the appointment even of the Statutory Commission before 1929, but certainly His Majesty's Government would have been at liberty at any time to appoint a Royal Commission. Anyhow, as His Majesty's Government are advised that the alteration of the Statute is necessary, we entirely fall in with their view that it should be altered.
There are two reasons for this. First of all, there is the desire of all Indian politicians that the question should be reconsidered at an early date and the principle of that desire has been pressed upon us repeatedly. The second reason is that notwithstanding the former debate in this House, in which the Secretary of State and the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, expressed their opinions upon the diarchical system, it has been the opinion of the great majority of Indian people, and of myself and the Party, that the diarchical system had ceased to perform any useful functions and that the sooner it was superseded the better, because it was doing no good and was creating an atmosphere of misunderstanding and unrest. Unquestionably had the Government of which I was a member been still in office after the Committee had reported we should probably have taken precisely the same line as His Majesty's Government are now taking and suggested the appointment of the Statutory Commis-

49
sion to reconsider the whole question of Indian government. On those grounds we cordially support the Motion.
There might be, there has been expressed some cavil against the action of His Majesty's Government on what I might call the ground that they might be regarded as manœuvring for position, that being in power they desire to appoint their own Commission. I pay not the slightest attention to any suggestion of that sort and I think it unfortunate that such a suggestion should have been made. I take the view that whatever Government were in power it was in the public interest and in the interest of India to appoint the Statutory Commission, and it is absurd to suggest that His Majesty's Government really gain any special advantage for such views as their Party may hold by appointing the Commission at the present time. The conception and gestation of the Committee will occupy a matter of two or three years and it is quite possible that by that time the complexion of His Majesty's Government may have changed. In any event, I do not think His Majesty's Government could have been expected to postpone the appointment of the Commission. It would have been their duty in any event to appoint it some time before 1929. I do not believe that they expect they will be out of office by 1929, but it has been urged by Indians that the matter should be postponed, that there will be 500 Liberal members in the next Parliament and that they will get a better show with a Parliament containing 500 Liberals than they will get in the present circumstances. I think, however, that His Majesty's Government would have failed in their duty if they had not appointed this Commission now. I think they have shown public spirit in doing so and a sincere desire to meet the wishes of India. On these grounds I beg leave to support the Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I only intervene for a moment to state first, on behalf of the Party with which I am associated, that we support the Bill. I do not intend to discuss the reasons why the time should have been shortened. A debate on that subject will come opportunely at a later stage when we are discussing the whole question. I shall not even be tempted by the observations of my noble friend Lord Olivier to enter at this time into
50
considerations of the variation of the diarchical principle, but I do wish to emphasise that in my view the Government have acted wisely and have shown a real desire to consult the views of Indian politicians and to give effect to the views of India generally by appointing this Commission at an earlier date than the statutory period. I was conscious during the whole period of my office of the desire to have this Commission accelerated. I certainly shall not discuss all the various representations that were made to me, nor the debates that took place in the various Legislatures on the subject. It is, I believe, solely in the public interest of India that the Government, have determined to curtail the time and appoint the Commission at this early date. We shall give every support to the Bill.
I regret very much that it has been found necessary to postpone the debate. I cannot but think that everything seems to have conspired to make the reception of the appointment of this Commission unfavourable in India. The news leaked out in some way before the official announcement was made. Even the names of the members of the Commission were known and discussed in India before we knew them here. Now we have to postpone the debate. I do not know at this moment when it is convenient that it should take place, but I appeal to my noble friend the Secretary of State for India to do everything possible, as I am sure he will—he has told us he will—to accelerate the debate, for every day opinion in India is crystallising and hardening against the measure, largely because nothing is being said over here that would help to allay many of the apprehensions that are now held by people in India. My own view is that when they fully understand the intentions of the Government and the opportunities that will be given to them at the various stages for putting their views before the Commission their fears will be removed, and there will be much less disposition to take an adverse view of the appointment of the Commission.
I hope that it will not be many days before there will be an opportunity of debate both here and in another place, so that India will have a real chance of being convinced that the sole desire

51
has been to fall in with her views, because India has wished that the appointment of the Commission should be accelerated. Such a debate would convince her, I think, that in appointing the Commission the Government really had only one object in mind, and that was to carry out the policy which was formulated in the Act of Parliament of 1919 and to enable any persons who hold an opinion in India, even those persons who wish to have an Indian-made Constitution, to express their views before the Commission.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SUPERANNUATION AND OTHER TRUST FUNDS (VALIDATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, this Bill has two objects, of which the first is this. Your Lordships know that in connection with many industrial concerns superannuation funds have been set up for the purpose of providing pensions for the employees on their retirement, whether for reasons of ill-health or old age, and sometimes also for providing pensions for their widows and children. Those funds are very valuable as a provision for those who have grown old in the service of a firm or a company and also as an incentive to steady work. But a few years ago the trusts of some of these funds were taken objection to as infringing what is known as the rule against perpetuities. Your Lordships may know that it is part of the policy of our law that property or money shall not be tied up indefinitely and gradually the rule was evolved that it should not be tied up by any trust for more than a life in being and twenty-one years after, except in the case of a charitable trust.
It was held by Mr. Justice Russell that trusts of this kind, or rather a particular trust of this character was invalid as an infringement of that rule. It was thought desirable that these trusts should go on as long as the business itself goes on and therefore a Commission was appointed over which Sir Claud Schuster presided. That Committee recommended the simple
52
step of providing by legislation that the rule in question should not apply to these things. That is one purpose of this Bill. We make certain conditions. We require the fund to be registered with the Registrar of Friendly Societies, who will, of course, see that the fund is a genuine superannuation fund, and we propose that the accounts shall be made up annually and be audited by an auditor and that there shall be a quinquennial valuation of the fund to make sure that it is adequate for the demands that may be made upon it by the members of the fund. Subject to these and similar conditions set out in the provisions of the Bill it is proposed to exempt these funds from the technical rule of law.
That is one purpose of the Bill. The other may be more shortly stated. Certain public-spirited persons have expressed a desire to give considerable sums to be held in trust to accumulate the income during a long period after which the fund and the accumulations are to be applied to the reduction of the National Debt. That, of course, is a very laudable purpose, but unfortunately there again a rule of law steps in and prevents indefinite accumulations of income. We want to facilitate the execution of the purpose of these public-spirited individuals, and therefore by Clause 9 of the Bill we propose to make a trust of that nature valid notwithstanding the rule to which I have referred. Those are the reasons why I ask your Lordships to agree to the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, the difficulty out of which the necessity for this Bill arises is the difficulty of defining what is a charity. Mr. Thellusson by his famous will tried to tie up his property for the benefit of his family. That was thought to be wrong, the Thellusson Act was passed, and now it is found that while it is quite right that there should be restriction on the time of tieing up so far as a man's family or private persons are concerned, it is otherwise when you come to charitable objects, and as my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack knows well, there has been a series of decisions in the Courts in which it is has been held that trusts for very laudable purposes—the

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upkeep of libraries and other provisions for the public—are invalid because they do not come within the technical definition of charity. "Charity" is a very technical word in law. It extends to much less than is popularly supposed, and because of the technical meaning attached to it various trusts for public purposes have been set aside as infringing this rule restricting the right to tie up.
This Bill deals with two specific classes of case—one which I may call the industrial class, and the other the case of money to be accumulated to go in discharge of the National Debt. I should have thought that really the better way was to say that for the purposes at any rate of a measure, like this "charity" should have a meaning more in accordance with what the public understand by the word. That has not been done, and my fear is lest it be found when this Bill becomes an Act and is in operation that there are a number of other laudable things in the public interest which are still struck at by the old and technical rule restricting the meaning of the word "charity." However, no doubt the Bill as it is will do good. The Government have taken advice on the subject, and if the Bill goes forward in this form it will do good. My complaint, is that it will not do all the good it might have done. In the circumstances I raise no objection to the passing of this Bill.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack if he could explain a little more in detail the nature of Clause 9. As I read Clause 9 it makes it possible for a person by his will to set aside a fund which might be accumulated for some hundreds of years—because the time is not limited—with a view to reducing or wiping off a great portion of the National Debt. That in itself is a most laudable purpose, but if the time within which this accumulation could take place is left absolutely unlimited, as I think it is by Clause 9, it is possible that it might have a serious disturbing effect upon the market. I think a calculation has been made—I forget the exact amount—that if a sum of £100, or perhaps it was £l,000, had been left in trust two hundred or three hundred years ago to be accumulated at
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compound interest, that fund now would absorb the whole wealth of the country. Perhaps I am not quoting the figures accurately, but I would suggest that it might be desirable to insert in Clause 9 some restriction on the number of years during which money might accumulate, however desirable the ultimate purpose might be.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if any Amendment is brought forward in the Committee stage we will consider it, but I would remind the noble Lord that the clause does give power to the Treasury to disclaim the interest of the National Debt Commissioners. If the deplorable consequences which my noble friend anticipates seemed likely to occur that power would no doubt be exercised.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NOTTING HILL MANHOLE ACCIDENT.
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL rose to call attention to the fatal accident in an inspection chamber of the Notting Hill Electric Light Company on 7th October, by which three men lost their lives, and to ask what steps the Ministry of Transport is taking to prevent such accidents. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I desire to call attention to a fatal accident of a deplorable character, and when I have stated the facts I want to ask your Lordships' agreement to some criticism that I have to make. If I make any mistake in stating the facts the noble Viscount opposite no doubt will put me right. I shall be glad to be interrupted. As I understand, what happened was this. On October 7 two workmen who were in the employ of the Notting Hill Electric Light Company were sent to inspect or do some work at one of those manholes of considerable size underneath the street which are used for electric light mains. When they opened the manhole and descended into it they were overcome by lethal fumes. Whether there was an escape from a gas pipe or whether there was some other kind of gas I am not sure, but there is no doubt they were overcome by lethal fumes. A Metropolitan police constable who was there, with that gallantry and courage and disregard of

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personal safety which I think always marks the police, went to their assistance and attempted to rescue them. The result was that he also was overcome, and these three innocent people lost their lives.
I think I am right in saying that it was stated in the Press that this manhole had not been opened for a period exceeding twenty years. I think it said twenty-three years. If those are the facts that seems to me to be an accident which can very properly be called preventible, and not only one which was preventible but one which ought to have been prevented. If a manhole in a London street has not been opened for over twenty years it is a fair presumption that there will be an accumulation there of some kind of deleterious gas, though not, perhaps, always so rapidly lethal as in this case. Methods ought to be provided by those who are responsible for sending men to work there either to test the gas in some way or to have some sort of blowing apparatus for carrying gas away before the men descend. As I understand this accident, it was of that class, and no apparatus was provided, no precautions were taken and no tests were made. As a result two innocent workmen and a constable, who had nothing whatever to do with the matter, lost their lives.
I felt so strongly in this matter that I wrote at once to the Ministry of Transport and asked them if they would not think it proper to be represented at the coroner's inquest, which must necessarily be held, and there to put questions as to the responsibility of the person or persons who had sent these men down on this operation without taking any precautions. To that letter I have received no reply and no acknowledgment to this day, and when the inquest was held I did not discover from the report that any representative of the Ministry was present or that any questions were put elucidating or tending to fix the responsibility for this accident. The coroner's jury appear, quite easily and without any criticism or question, to have returned a verdict of "Accidental death." Technically, no doubt, this was accidental death, but it seems to me to have been a death which might so well have been contemplated and so easily prevented that responsibility for it ought to have been fixed somewhere and there should have been some reprimand of the person upon whom responsibility
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rested. More than that, I suggested to the Ministry that, they having, I believe, power to make regulations applying to electric light companies, some regulation might very well be made in regard to the inspection of manholes which have not been opened for whatever period of years it was thought fit to fix, providing for some kind of test or safety apparatus before they are opened. I wrote again after the inquest, and of that letter I have received an acknowledgment from the Electricity Commissioners. I do not know whether I ought to have written to them in the first place or not, but no doubt the noble Viscount will tell me when he replies. Beyond a bare acknowledgment I have heard nothing from them.
I bring this matter to your Lordships' notice to-day because I am sure that all your Lordships will feel, as I felt, that if men's lives can be preserved by taking the simplest precautions, and if all precautions have been neglected and men's lives have been lost because of the absence of those precautions, the Government Department concerned ought to take such steps as it can to prevent the recurrence of such accidents. It is merely in the hope of preventing the recurrence of any accidents which can so easily be prevented with a minimum of foresight that I have put this Question down, and I Shall be glad to hear what the noble Viscount has to say.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I do not, I think, altogether differ from the noble Earl opposite as to the version of the facts that he has given to your Lordships. It is, of course, a most unfortunate event that three men, as he stated, lost their lives in the way that he has described. He is also, I think, correct in stating that this shaft—there is some doubt as to what this place should be called—had not been opened for something like twenty years.
EARL RUSSELL: More, I think.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I am informed that it was built in 1903, I think by the London County Council, but I have not been able to ascertain for what purpose the shaft was constructed. At any rate the shaft had been closed down. Then I understand that this company—and naturally I cannot take any responsi-

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bility as representing the Ministry for the action of the company—thought that this shaft would form a means of access to some of their cables. The top of it was taken off, and then I must refer, I think, for the facts to the inquiry before the coroner, where the details came out most clearly. It appears that the assistant engineer employed by the Notting Hill Electric Light Co. warned this man that it was unsafe, when the top of the shaft had been taken out, to descend by the iron steps that I understand were there. The man did descend, though he was again warned that it would be dangerous to do so. It is not, of course, my business to suggest that the assistant engineer ought to have more forcibly brought before this man the danger of what he was doing in descending a shaft that had not been open for twenty years.
As the noble Earl has very justly stated it is almost common knowledge that in London and elsewhere some very disagreeable gases—in this case I believe it was carbon dioxide—accumulate in a shaft of that kind. The coroner's jury, as has been said, brought in a verdict of "Accidental death," and it is not my business to criticise or interfere in any way with that verdict. The view of the Ministry of Transport is that the cause of the accident was perfectly clear and that accordingly there is nothing to be gained by an inquiry, the facts having been fully set out at the coroner's inquest. The noble Earl also alluded to the responsible Department. I am not clear that there is any Department that is responsible in this kind of case. It is true, I believe, that the Electricity Commissioners make regulations about inspection chambers, but this can hardly be called an inspection chamber, because it was some disused shaft which the company for their own purposes thought might be made use of for examining these cables.
EARL RUSSELL: I do not wish to interrupt the noble Viscount, but surety if it is a chamber for inspection it is an inspection chamber.
VISCOUNT PEEL: No, that is just what I am trying to point out. It is neither a
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chamber for inspection nor an inspection chamber. There is a technical definition of what an inspection chamber is, and I presume that, if some company or person chooses to use for the purpose of inspection a chamber or shaft that is not an inspection chamber, no Government Department can be censured merely because they have laid down rules about inspection chambers. I do not want to make any fine distinctions in this case, but I understand that the general view of the Ministry of Transport is that they have no responsibility in this affair, and that the facts of the case are very clearly known. If, of course, there is any matter that the noble Earl or any of your Lordships would like me to represent to the Electricity Commissioners, I should be very glad to do so. This was a very unfortunate accident—one of those accidents which, I suppose, must be extremely unusual, because it occurred through the discovery and use of an ancient shaft that had not been opened for some time. Indeed, as I have said, the accident might never have occurred if the assistant engineer had more forcibly laid his commands upon the man who descended.
EARL RUSSELL: I should like to ask the noble Viscount if I am not right in thinking that some body—either the Ministry of Transport or the Electricity Commissioners—has powers to make regulations for the safety of the public and for other purposes—namely, the powers under which these regulations about inspection chambers are made. Whether this was an inspection chamber or a disused shaft, it is surely possible for them to make regulations about any hole in the ground used for electric light purposes, and accordingly I would urge that they should make some regulation providing for the safety of those who use these places.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I should be very glad to convey that suggestion to the Electricity Commissioners.
EARL RUSSELL: I am obliged to the noble Viscount.
House adjourned at five o'clock.

OUSE DRAINAGE BILL.
Report from the Joint Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed with the Bill made. The Minutes of Evidence (with the Proceedings of the Committee) laid upon the Table and to be delivered out.
CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Second Report from the Joint Committee, being the Report on the Statute Law Revision Bill [H.L.] made, and to be printed. The Minutes of Evidence (with the Proceedings of the Joint Committee) laid upon the Table, and to be printed.

WEST MIDLANDS ELECTRICITY DISTRICT (IRONBRIDGE GENE- RATING STATION) ORDER, 1927.
Special Order in respect of the purchase and use by the West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority of land for a generating station at Buildwas, in the County of Salop, and for other purposes:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SOUTH DURHAM DISTRICTS ELEC- TRICITY ORDER, 1927.
Special Order in respect of parts of the rural districts of Darlington, Hartlepool, Sedgefield and Stockton, in the County of Durham:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

DEWSBURY GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the County Borough of Dewsbury:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

ALDERSHOT DISTRICT ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION, ETC.) ORDER, 1927.
BRIDGEND ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1927.
CHESTER ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION, ETC.) ORDER, 1927.
CRICCIETH ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.
GLOUCESTER ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1927.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, that no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

MANCHESTER GAS ORDER, 1927.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, that they have examined the Special Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House, that a petition against the Order has been presented by the Urban District Councils of Stretford, Audenshaw, Droylsden and Cheadle and Gatley, and that having considered the points referred to in subsection (6) of Standing Order 191, they are of opinion that there is no necessity for a further inquiry by a Select Committee: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House. Bill to be printed as amended.
LAW OF LIBEL AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
A Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room C on Wednesday, the 23rd of November, at half-past eleven o'clock.