Sitting of 19 May 1927

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

MILITARY MANŒUVRES, 1927 (ORDER IN COUNCIL).
THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD (Major Sir George Hennessy) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that I will make an Order in Council under the Military ManŒuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, a draft of which was presented to your House on the 8th day of February last.
I will comply with your advice.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Grimsby Corporation Bill.
Read the Third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  THEATRICAL EMPLOYERS REGISTRATION ACT.
  Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of certain cases of theatrical artistes who have been defrauded out of their earnings and left stranded in various parts of Great Britain since the introduction of the Theatrical Employers' Registration Act, 1925, he will consider the advisability of amending this Act, so that the penal provisions of the same can be enforced?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): The Government cannot hold out any prospect of undertaking legislation, but I should see no objection to the introduction of a Private Member's
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  Bill limited to a proposal to empower registration authorities to institute proceedings for offences against the Act.
  Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these girls are suffering very great hardship through being stranded, and cannot he see his way to amend the present legislation? It would be a very small affair.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have answered several questions of the hon. Gentleman on this subject. Opinion is not unanimous upon this proposal.
  Colonel DAY: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that companies are being stranded almost every week and that these girls are left in all parts of Great Britain and cannot get back to London.
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I hardly like to use the word "exaggeration," but I think the hon. Member does a little bit overstate it.
  Mr. J. HUDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are several cases where the police, in towns where girls have been stranded, have taken very sympathetic action?

  PRISON ACCOMMODATION (DURHAM).
  Mr. BATEYasked the Home Secretary the total amount of prison accommodation in the counties of Durham and Northumberland?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The prison at Durham contains cell accommodation for 624 men and 155 women prisoners. In addition there are four rooms for men and three for women prisoners in association. There is no prison in Northumberland.
  Mr. BATEY: Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to take steps for the purpose of providing sufficient accommodation after the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill has passed?

  STREET ACCIDENTS (POLICE FIRST-AID).
  Dr. VERNON DAVIESasked the Home Secretary what measures are taken in the Metropolitan Police district to see that prompt and efficient first-aid is avail-

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  able in the case of street accidents; and if he is satisfied that these measures are sufficient, bearing in mind the probability of a steady increase in these accidents owing to the rapid development of motor transport?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The main responsibility for the provision of first-aid (apart from facilities for removal to hospital) in case of street accidents must obviously rest with the police, and the importance of first-aid training is fully recognised. Under present arrangements every recruit entering the Metropolitan Police receives instruction in first-aid and ambulance drill and is required to secure a certificate of proficiency in first-aid before his appointment as a constable can be confirmed. At the present time about 90 per cent. of the force possess certificates of competency, and I am not aware of any reason for thinking that the existing arrangements are in any respect insufficient.
  Dr. DAVIES: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the provision of this first-aid has necessitated any increase in the force itself?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is quite impossible to say exactly where an increase of the force arises. There may be a few more men, but I think that, on the whole, there has been no actual increase because of this.
  Mr. HARRIS: Is this the most satisfactory way of dealing with the matter? Would it not be better to deal with it through the improved motor ambulance service supplied by the London County Council?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I should be very glad if the London County Council would assist me.
  Dr. SALTER: Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether every policeman on duty is supplied with first-aid equipment for immediate use?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I must have notice of that question.

  ALIENS.

    KATE GUSSFELDT.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the Home Secretary whether proceedings will be instituted
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    against any of the British subjects who aided and abetted the German Communist, Kate Gussfeldt, who was recently convicted of serious offences against the law of this country and sentenced to two months' imprisonment with a recommendation for deportation?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am afraid it would not be in the public interest to say in advance whether proceedings will or will not be instituted in any particular case.
    Sir F. HALL: I hope my right hon. Friend is not going to lose sight of the case of this lady.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No, Sir, I have had my eye on the lady for some time.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the Empire still safe?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes.

    P. P. DIAKONOFF.
    Mr. T KENNEDYasked the Home Secretary whether a Russian, named P. P. Diakonoff, was granted permission to enter this country from France on or about 28th March last; and if he can state the object of his visit and the duration of his stay in this country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes, Sir. I understand that Mr. Diakonoff came to this country for the purpose of business. He departed again about six days later.
    Mr. KENNEDY: Is the Home Secretary quite satisfied that the object of this person's visit was correctly stated in his application to be allowed to come to this country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am as satisfied as I can be of the truth of any statement made by any person in these circumstances, stating what his purpose was. There was no reason to doubt it, and I allowed him to stay six days.
    Mr. KENNEDY: May I take it that the Home Secretary is unaware of the antecedents of this person; that he is now on the military staff of the Grand Duke Nicholas, in France; that he spent the time at his disposal in this country under this permit soliciting financial guarantees—Government and other guarantees—for the prosecution of military

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    operations in Southern China and in Manchuria, and that his introductions to influential financial quarters in this country were facilitated by hon. Members of this House? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of these facts? If he is unaware of these facts, will he, in the light of what I have stated, inquire into the whole matter of this person's visit?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is obvious that I am unable to answer a whole series of questions of that kind, of which notice has not been given. I will take note of the hon. Member's question in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow and cause inquiries to be made into all his allegations.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to the anxiety of the Opposition on this subject, and will he see that most careful scrutiny is caused of all Russian subjects in future in this country?
    Mr. JOHNSTON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether or not he is aware that ex-General Diakonoff was military attaché to the Russian Embassy in London in 1917 and 1918? If the right hon. Gentleman has any difficulty in getting any information on this General's visit now, will he inquire from hon. Members on his own side of the House?
    Mr. G. PETO: Is it really a crime not to visit the Leader of the Opposition?
    Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: Does not the record of General Diakonoff prove that he is a greater friend to England than many of the other Russians?
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is it not a fact that this General——
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is getting a long way from the question.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: On the Question itself——
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Sexton.
    Mr. LANSBURY: This General is a white agent.

    CHARITIES (SUPERVISION).
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Home Secretary the number of fraudulent charities that were brought to the notice
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    of the Home Office Departmental Committee on the supervision of charities; the number of cases in which individuals running charities mainly or in whole for their personal benefit were prosecuted; the number of convictions secured in the years 1925 and 1926; and whether it is proposed to introduce legislation providing for the registration of all charities and increased penalties on persons found defrauding the charitable public?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I hardly think it is possible to give precise figures under the heads set out in the first three paragraphs of the question. The hon. Member served on the Departmental Committee and he will therefore be aware that the witnesses who gave evidence sometimes referred to charities which they considered to be fraudulent and that in very many of these cases fraud had not been established in a Court of law. With regard to the last paragraph, I would remind the hon. Member that the report which he signed did not recommend the universal registration of charities. I am considering the question of introducing legislation to carry out the changes which the Committee did recommend, but I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

    ARCOS, LIMITED (POLICE SEARCH).
    Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSONasked the Home Secretary whether he can now make a full statement with regard to the raid upon the premises of Arcos, Limited, and the Russian Trade Delegation; and the result, if any, of the search?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The information which has come into the possession of the police as the result of the search of the Arcos building is of such a nature that it has not yet been possible for His Majesty's Government to complete their examination or determine the consequences of it. I must therefore ask the House to wait for the promised statement till Tuesday next.
    Mr. HENDERSON: I am sure the House must appreciate that the issues raised by this raid are very serious indeed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] I want to ask the head of the Government whether, if we are content to comply with the suggestion that the whole statement

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    should not be made before Tuesday, he could give us a definite promise that Wednesday would be devoted to a Debate on the whole question that will be raised by the right hon. Gentleman's reply?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The date I had provisionally reserved was Thursday, because on Wednesday my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has an important engagement, and I should be very sorry if that had to be interfered with. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would communicate through the usual channels and see whether he might be able to meet his convenience. Wednesday would be a very great inconvenience to my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. HENDERSON: In view of the definite statement and the reasons advanced for the day's delay, I am quite prepared, on behalf of the Opposition, to accept Thursday.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I should like to ask the Home Secretary, quite apart from the documents, in order that we may be clear on this point, is he satisfied that he has powers to raid any building in London in this way, quite apart from the Russian offices? Could he, for example, raid Harrod's or Barker's in this way?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise.
    Mr. HENDERSON: It was suggested across the Table just now that Thursday would be a Supply day. We cannot accept that as a fulfilment of the undertaking made between the Home Secretary and myself.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: was not asking anything in connection with the statement to be made on Tuesday but I was asking out of the original situation which has arisen as to the legal position which is at present existing.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have to be guided by the question that is put down. That point does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
    Mr. WALLHEAD: Is it the opinion of the Government that the Russian Government have the right to raid a British Mission in Moscow or Leningrad?
    HON. MEMBERS: "No!" and "They have done it!"
    Mr. SPEAKER: That raises an argument on the whole question.
    Mr. THURTLE: Can the Home Secretary say whether the warrant for searching the premises was issued under the Official Secrets Act or not?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes.
    Sir H. CROFT: Can my right hon. Friend inform the House why it is the Opposition appear to regard this as their own peculiar affair.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary whether his Department or the police have had access to any official lists or returns made of the persons employed by the Arcos Company and the Russian Trade Delegation prior to the raid on the Moorgate Street premises last week?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Information supplied by the Soviet authorities from time to time to the Foreign Office was available.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman had these lists of persons, quite apart from anything he has discovered in the raid?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes. From time to time the Soviet authorities supply to the Foreign Office a list of the names of those employed there.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Both Russian and British?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Therefore it was not necessary, in order to find out whether the Second Consul in London was employed there, to go through the lists for that purpose?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is argumentative.
    Mr. RILEY: May I ask whether the warrant under which the police raided these offices authorised them to seize documents arriving at the office during the time of the raid?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise here.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Home Secretary how many Russians and persons of Russian extracton, male and female, respectively, are employed in the Special Branch of Scotland Yard; and whether any extra help has been engaged in connection with the documents seized in the recent raid on the premises of the Arcos Company?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer to the first part of the question is, none. Following the search, the services of nine interpreters were enlisted; all these persons are of British nationality.
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Home Secretary whether he can give any estimate of the value of the damage caused to Arcos, Limited, as a result of the recent raid upon and destruction of their safes and other property; and whether it is proposed to offer any sum by way of compensation for such damage?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Arcos, Limited, is a British registered company, and is it within the legal powers conferred upon the right hon. Gentleman to raid the premises or destroy the business of a British company, without compensation being given?
    Sir W. JOYNSON- HICKS: It is entirely within the power of a magistrate to direct the issue of a warrant to search the premises of any company, of any firm or of anybody in this country, if he is satisfied that an offence has been committed.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether during the search there were present any member of Arcos, Limited, or any member of the Russian Trade Delegation, so that any documents alleged to have been discovered there could have been verified by the people concerned?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The question only deals with the damage to safes and other property.
    Mr. THURTLE: On the assumption that the magistrate's conviction that an offence has been committed proves to be ill-founded by subsequent events, has the company any action at law for damages?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is a very hypothetical question, and I cannot attempt to answer it.
    Lieut.-Colonel McINNES SHAW: Is it not a fact that if this company had behaved in the ordinary way and had been willing to show that they had nothing to hide, there would have been no difficulty?
    Mr. SAKLATVALA: Is it lawful for a magistrate to issue such a warrant and cause this damage, in order to facilitate our Foreign Office to smuggle into somebody else's premises a certain document?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Lumley.

    DOCKS AND HARBOURS (ACCIDENTS).
    Mr. SEXTONasked the Home Secretary whether, in all docks and harbours, the safety-first appliances, such as ambulances and first-aid, have been adopted in conformity with the agreement arrived at between employers and workmen and embodied in the dock Regulations?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The Chief Inspector of Factories reports that a great advance has been made in the provision of ambulances and first-aid appliances at docks, and that the requirements of the Regulations in this matter are now well complied with. If, however, the hon. Member has any place in mind where the present arrangements are not satisfactory, and will furnish me with particulars, I shall be glad to have the case investigated.
    Mr. SEXTONasked the Home Secretary if, in view of the number of accidents at the docks and harbours amounting to four a day, he will favourably consider the question of increasing the staff of inspectors under the dock Regulations?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am afraid that no increase of staff can be considered at present, and as a large percentage—probably a majority—of accidents at docks arise, not through neglect of the Regulations, but owing to such causes as careless working and lack of supervision, the best means of prevention, I think, lies in the setting up of safety first

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    organisations at the different ports, as recommended by the Conference on Dock Accidents which sat in 1924, and in which the hon. Member took part. This question has been taken up by the Factory Department, with employers' and workers' representatives, and I am hopeful that definite and practical steps will result at an early date.

    IMPERIAL EDUCATION CONFERENCE.
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the President of the Board of Education when the Imperial Education Conference will be held; and what will be the composition of the conference?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy): The conference will meet from 20th June to 8th July next. It is composed of delegates from the Dominions and Colonies and of representatives of Government Departments in this country.

    PUBLIC LIBRARIES (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).
    Mr. RILEYasked the President of the Board of Education if the Departmental Committee on Public Libraries has completed its work; and, if so, when the Report will be presented to Parliament?
    Lord E. PERCY: Yes, Sir. The Report will, I understand, be published early next month as a Command Paper.

  HOUSING.

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to make a statement with reference to the introduction of legislation for the purpose of continuing the Rent Restrictions Act?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Chamberlain): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a question on the same subject addressed to me by the hon. Member for Blackpool on the 5th instant.
    Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the delay is causing
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    very great anxiety to the public, and cannot he expedite his announcement?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No. It is a matter which requires careful consideration.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to when he will be able to tell the House what are his intentions?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the question which I answered from the hon. Member.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Was the date given in that reply? I do not think it was. Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to when he will be able to give a definite date?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. and gallant Member will refer to the answer, he will see that I did so.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman be courteous enough to inform the House of the date?
    Mr. LOOKERasked the Minister of Health whether, when reviewing the operation of the Rent Restrictions Act, he will consider the question of enabling persons who have bought houses for their own occupation, but are unable to get possession of them, to obtain such possession in spite of any provisions of that Act he may think it desirable to continue?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. Friend's suggestion will be carefully considered by the Government before a decision is arrived at in regard to the future of the Rent Restrictions Act.
    Mr. HAYES: May I ask that the right hon. Gentleman will do nothing in this respect which will increase the hardship on people who are finding a difficulty already in securing suitable accommodation?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I shall have to consider the hardship occasioned to all classes of people.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is it not the case that at present a person who purchases a house can obtain possession for himself or a member of his family without further legislation?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Under certain conditions.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is it not the common practice in the East, End of London for owners to get possession of their houses under the pretence that they want to live in them, and, after living in them for a short time, turn them into factories?
    Mr. STEPHEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a reduction of the rents of these houses to the 1914 rents?

    CONSTRUCTION STATISTICS.
    Sir JOHN POWERasked the Minister of Health when he expects to be able to state the total number of houses built during the six months ended 31st March, 1927?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I expect the figures will be available in about a week's time.

    BUILDING MATERIALS (CONTRACTS).
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the possibility of requiring a clause to be inserted in the housing contracts made by local authorities with building contractors that where possible building materials should be purchased in this country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Section 10 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, provides that, in approving proposals for the construction of houses, the Minister of Health shall not impose any conditions which would prevent the materials required being purchased in the cheapest market at home or abroad. The Government have, however, urged local authorities to arrange that all contracts for, or incidental to, works carried out by them should, in the absence of special circumstances, be placed in this country.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there is no intention on the part of local authorities to place orders for building materials until they are satisfied that there are no rings or combines for fixing prices in this country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That seems to assume that a price-fixing association must necessarily fix prices at an unreasonable level.
    Sir H. CROFT: May I ask whether it is not inconsistent that, while the State and municipalities are assisting by way of subsidy house construction, orders for materials should be placed abroad, thus increasing the unemployment in this country; and will he not take fresh steps to secure that these contracts are placed in this country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The only step I could take would be to bring in fresh legislation.
    Mr. HARRIS: May I ask whether it is not the fact that the London County Council, which is a protectionist body, has been compelled, owing to high prices, to buy its bricks and tiles from the Continent, thus saving 30 per cent. on the price?

    HOUSING SCHEMES (WEST RIDING).
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Health the total number of houses built in the whole of the area, covered by the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire in the year ending 31st December, 1926, under the various Housing Acts; and how many are in course of construction at the present time?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: 19,471 houses were completed during the year ended 31st December, 1926, in the West Riding of Yorkshire (including the areas of county boroughs in the Riding) with the aid of subsidy under the Housing Acts, and on the 1st instant, 13,653 were under construction.

    BUILDING COSTS (DURHAM).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health the average cost of the erection of houses by the various local authorities in the County of Durham for the years 1920 to 1926, inclusive, by direct labour and by contract, respectively, for non-parlour and parlour houses?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will have a statement prepared giving the information desired so far as it is available, and will forward it to the hon. Member.
    Mr. ALBERY: May I ask whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the cottages which have been erected by His Majesty the King on the Sandringham Estate, and whether he will consider circulating particulars of these cottages?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That hardly seems to arise out of a question concerning the County of Durham.
    Mr. PALING: Will the statement of the right hon. Gentleman be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes.
    Mr. ALBERY: Cannot the houses which have been erected on the Sandringham Estate be equally well erected in the County of Durham?
    Mr. RICHARDSON: My question applies to the whole of the country, and not only to the County of Durham.

    INFANTS (VACCINATION).
    Sir. J. POWERasked the Minister of Health the number of children born in England and Wales last year, and how many of them were vaccinated?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The number of births registered in England and Wales last year was 694,563, but I am not at present in a position to say how many of these children have been vaccinated. The corresponding figures for 1925 were: Births, 710,400; successfully vaccinated, 314,325.

    CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Health, seeing that the agents of a number of approved societies are informing insured persons who were aged 65 prior to 1st January, 1927, that they must continue paying contributions until the end of 1928, if he will give further publicity by a notification in the Press to the fact that a person unemployed, or who is paying a full contribution as though he were a voluntary contributor, need not pay contributions this year to ensure the receipt of an old age pension in January next if he or she has been insured five years, paid 104 contributions, and not less than 39 contributions in each of the two insurance years immediately preceding 1st January, 1927?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have received no information which would lead me to suppose that the agents of approved societies are requiring their members to pay contributions unnecessarily, and I do not consider it necessary or desirable
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    to publish a statement to the effect suggested by the hon. Member. In order that persons in the position which he describes may qualify for old age pensions at the 2nd January, 1928, they must still be insured persons at that date, that is to say, they must not have exhausted the free period of insurance allowed after the last payment of contributions. The question whether any voluntary payment of contributions in 1927 is required to secure this result in a particular case depends on the insured person's record with his approved society.

    SOUTHEND SEWAGE FARM.
    Mr. LOOKERasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the South-end Corporation propose to establish a sewage farm in the neighbourhood of Barling; that the proposed site is in close proximity to one of the water-work's pumping stations; that great apprehension exists in the district that the water supply may be polluted; that a large area of barren land is obtainable in the district at lower cost the use of which for the purpose of a sewage farm would be free from objection; and can he state what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware of the circumstances of this case. A public local inquiry has been held by an engineering inspector and a medical officer of my Department into the application of the corporation for a Provisional Order for the acquisition of the land. The inquiry showed that there is no danger to the water supply and that there is no equally suitable alternative site. The Provisional Order has accordingly been made.

    SMALL-POX.
    Mr. HARRISONasked the Minister of Health the estimated cost of the treatment of the 12,922 cases of small-pox notified in England and Wales during the year ending 2nd April, 1927; and the percentage of that cost borne by the Exchequer and local authorities concerned, respectively?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: These particulars are not available, but no part of the cost of the treatment of small-pox cases falls on the Exchequer except in

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    the case of patients arriving in this country suffering from the disease who are isolated and treated by the port sanitary authorities. In such cases 50 per cent. of the cost is borne by the Exchequer.
    Mr. HARRISON: Is it not a fact that the approximate cost of a small-pox case is £210 a case?
    Mr. HARRISONasked the Minister of Health the estimated cost of public vaccination for small-pox during the year ending 2nd April, 1927, including the cost of preparing the vaccine?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The cost of public vaccination, including the cost of vaccine lymph issued from the Government Lymph Establishment, was approximately £175,000 for the financial year 1925–26 which is the last year for which particulars are at present available.

    ASYLUMS (COST OF MAINTENANCE).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the cost of maintenance of patients in the various asylums in the country has more than doubled since 1913 and that the allowance of the Ministry remains at the same figure as in that year; and will he, under the circumstances, recommend that the allowance be increased in keeping with the increased cost to the authorities?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but the gross amount of the allowance was stabilised in 1916 and not in 1913. The grant was originally payable at a rate representing the difference between cost of maintenance in Poor Law institutions and cost in asylums, and while there has been a material increase in the latter there has been a similar increase in the former, and I am not aware that any case has been established for reconsideration.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 4s. was considered to be fifty-fifty in 1916? To-day the cost of maintenance is much higher and nothing whatever is being given to local authorities to meet it.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is not what I said. The information I have indicates that there is no material change in the difference between the cost of treatment in a Poor Law institution and cost of treatment in asylums.

    MILK AND DAIRIES ORDER, 1926.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the increasing imports of skimmed condensed milk are depressing the market for liquid milk in this country; and whether, in view of the fact that this product is unfit for infants and is produced under conditions over which this country can exercise no control, he will assist the producers of milk in this country by prohibiting the importation of this skimmed condensed milk or by marking the labels on the tins, "Unfit for Infants," in more prominent type and letters than is done at present?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that the imports of machine-skimmed milk are increasing, although those of full-cream condensed milk appear to be diminishing in an equal degree. I have no evidence that the quality of these imports is such as would justify their prohibition, but I am giving some consideration to the suggestion contained in the last part of my hon. Friend's question.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been directed to the statement of Sir Arbuthnot Lane as to the beneficent qualities of English milk supplied to the children of this country, and in the interest of the children will he not do something to discourage the importation of this foreign skimmed condensed milk?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Would not the best way to assist the milk producers of this country be for the Government to advertise English milk on Post Office publications instead of beer?
    Mr. HASLAM: May I ask whether, with a view to a fuller protection of the purchaser, the right hon. Gentleman will consider also the marking of the wrapper, as very often it conceals the marking on the tins at the time of purchase?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, I shall be pleased to consider that, question.
    Mr. HAYES: Whose babies get the cream?
    Captain GARRO - JONES: Before taking any action, will the right hon. Gentleman make quite sure that his supporters are not thinking of the protection of the purchaser so much as the protection of the United Dairy Combine?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that there is a considerable importation of skimmed condensed milk into this country, largely from countries where the sale is prohibited on the grounds of its lack of nutritive qualities; and what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. According to my information there is no prohibition of the sale of machine-skimmed condensed milk in the countries from which the bulk of the imported supplies come.

    ASHFORD ASSESSMENT COMMITTEE (CLERK).
    Mr. B. SMITHasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a member of the Ashford Urban District Council has been appointed clerk to the local assesment committee under the Rating and Valuation Act, 1925, and that part of his salary is paid by the Ashford Urban District Council; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has not been drawn to this appointment, but in any event I have no power to take action with regard to it.

    POST-VACCINAL ENCEPHALITIS.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Minister of Health when the report of the committee appointed in February, 1926, to consider the question of post-vaccinal encephalitis will be issued?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member refers to the Committee appointed to enquire and report, amongst other things, on the practical methods
    1354
    which are available in the light of modern knowledge to diminish or remove any risks which may result from vaccination, the answer is that I am not yet in a position to say when the report will be issued.

  FINANCE BILL.

    SUPER-TAX.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total number of persons in Great Britain in receipt of £2,000 per year and who are paying Super-tax?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): The hon. Member will find the latest information as to the numbers of Super-tax payers in Table 68 of the 69th Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue (Command Paper 2783).

    INCOME TAX (MAINTENANCE EXPENDITURE).
    Mr. SKELTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that some property owners have been in the habit of presenting their claims for relief from Income Tax, Schedule A, in respect of maintenance expenditure, after payment of the first instalment of tax for the year to which the claim relates, but in time to have the relief allowed as a set-off against the second instalment of tax falling due in July; and whether, in future, it will be necessary for the property owners in question to pay the whole of the Schedule A tax in January and to obtain any relief to which they may be entitled in respect of maintenance expenditure by way of repayment of tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In view of the fact, however, that claims for relief in respect of expenditure on maintenance, etc., are required to be based upon the average expenditure incurred in the five years preceding the year of assessment, it would appear that speaking generally property owners can, if they so desire, lodge their claims soon after the commencement of the tax year. Where that is done, no difficulty will usually arise in dealing with the claims in ample time to enable the relief to be set against tax due on 1st January.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases maintenance claims are years in arrears?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Obviously, where they are years in arrears difficulty will arise. I am taking the opportunity of this question to give an answer which, if properly studied, will be found to afford a perfectly legitimate relief to a considerable section of the taxpayers who are specially affected by the financial proposals of the present year.

    ROAD WORKS (LONDON AREA).
    Mr. B. SMITHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will sanction sufficient grants out of the Road Fund to enable the following works to be started during the present financial year; the western half of the Western Avenue, tenders for which were advertised in January, 1926, by the Middlesex County Council and then not let on Treasury instructions; the bridges over the Thames at Mortlake and Richmond, forming part of the new Chertsey Road; and the remaining; section of the London North Circular Road?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): I came to the conclusion last year that the section of the Western Avenue to which the hon. Member refers was a work which could not take priority over many other schemes which were before me. But with assistance form the Road Fund, works on a considerable scale are in progress on the Western Avenue and the North Circular Road and the acquisition of land is proceeding to safeguard the future course of the new Chertsey Road and its bridges. It is not possible to state at present what further instalments of these schemes can be assisted during the present financial year. This must depend upon a close examination of the relative urgency of these particular works as compared with others contemplated in the metropolitan area and elsewhere.

    CHINA INDEMNITY FUND.
    Mr. G. PETOasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what sum now stands to the credit of the China Indemnity Fund; and whether he will consider, in
    1356
    accordance with Clause 1 of the China Indemnity Act, 1925, the payment from the fund of compensation to British individuals and firms in China who have suffered losses at the hands of the Chinese southern forces?
    Mr. PETO: On a point of Order. This Question appears on the Paper as being addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I addressed it to the Foreign Secretary, because under the Act of 1925 the Foreign Secretary would have absolute control in this matter.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: My note on the subject is that the question will be answered by the Foreign Secretary.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): The fund amounted on the 31st December, 1926, to £1,749,719 3s. 2d. It is very doubtful whether, under the terms of the present Act, the fund could be applied for the purpose suggested. It would be also contrary to the tenor of the recommendations of the Advisory Committee.
    Mr. PETO: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that under the Act of 1925 this fund can be applied to any purposes which are for the mutual benefit of His Majesty's Government and the Republic of China, and surely the payment of reparations to our citizens who have suffered severely in China must be a matter of mutual interest?
    Sir H. CROFT: Should not this claim be presented to Mr. Chen, who was responsible?
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Will the hon. Gentleman consider taking steps to have this Act repealed, in view of the extraordinary position that we shall be making a handsome gift to one set of Chinese while at the same time another set of Chinese are in the debt of our own people?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That should be a separate question. It deals with quite a new matter.

    FOREST AREAS (WILD FLOWERS).
    Colonel Dayasked the hon. Member for Monmouth, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, whether any notices have been issued by the Forestry

    1357
    Commission drawing attention to the fact that when wild flowers are picked young forest trees are frequently pulled up or broken; if so, to whom these notices have been issued; and what publicity has been given to these notices?
    Sir LEOLIN FORESTIER-WALKER (Forestry Commissioner): The Forestry Commission have asked the Automobile Association to draw the attention of their members to the fact that, when picking wild flowers, individuals sometimes thoughtlessly pull up or break off young forest trees without realising that they are destroying plants. No other notices on the subject have been issued.
    Colonel DAY: Cannot notices also be posted on the lands affected?
    Sir L. FORESTIER-WALKER: We can only deal with our own forest areas.
    Colonel DAY: Could not notices be printed in bold type so that people might read them?

    AFFORESTATION.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the hon. Member for Monmouth, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, if he can make any statement as to the extent to which trees are being cut down in the country and the corresponding efforts at reafforestation?
    Sir L. FORESTIER-WALKER: The Commissioners do not obtain annual returns as to the area of forest felled and replanted. From the Census of Woodlands figures compiled for the year 1924 it appears that, out of a total woodland area of 2,958,600 acres, 478,100 acres had been felled during recent years and not then replanted. Apart from current fellings there was consequently great leeway to be made up in replanting. It is estimated that at the present time private owners are planting about 12,000 acres per annum, which is probably less than the area being felled. On the other hand, the Forestry Commissioners have planted 22,400 acres during the planting season just ended. Since their appointment in 1919 the Commissioners have planted 93,000 acres in all, while 55,000 acres have been planted by local authorities and private individuals with the aid of grants.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Forestry Commission have yet made representations to the Government on the advisability of having the Forestry Commission's operations brought regularly within the purview of this House?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Are the Forestry Commissioners experiencing any difficulty in purchasing sufficient land for planting purposes?
    Sir L. FORESTIER-WALKER: Not up to the present.
    Mr. MAXTON: Arising out of the answer which the hon. Gentleman did not give to the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston), have the Forestry Commissioners, in view of the changes that are being made in other Departments, considered at any time their own abolition?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member clearly must give notice of that question.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    MINERS (DURHAM).
    Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Labour the total number of miners unemployed in the county of Durham on 30th April, 1927?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland): At 25th April, 1927, the latest date for which figures are available, 33,702 persons classified as belonging to the coal-mining industry were recorded as unemployed in County Durham, including 1,647 temporarily stopped from the service of their employers.
    Sir F. HALL: Is it not largely attributable to the advice tendered by the miners' leaders last year?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Question Time is too much taken up with these argumentative interjections——
    Sir F. HALL: Mr. Speaker——
    Mr. SPEAKER: Will the hon. Member allow me to finish my sentence. I say that Question Time is too much taken up with argumentative interjections which are not in the nature of questions asking for information, and it is very hard on Members who have questions standing later on the Paper.
    Mr. PALING: In view of the fact that a number of these pits have shut down and that a large proportion of these men will never be able to get work again in the county of Durham, are any steps being taken by the Ministry of Labour to get them transferred to other districts?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member should put that question down.

    BENEFIT DISALLOWED.
    Mr. BARKERasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that Mr. F. L. Rees, 20, Edward Street, Pontypool (Mon.), has been refused unemployment benefit, and that Rees has produced 18 certificates stating that he has applied for work; and, in view of the fact that Rees has a wife and six children depending on him for maintenance, will he have this case investigated with a view to benefit being paid in this case?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I am having inquiries made and will let the hon. Member know the result as soon as possible.

    INSURANCE (SEASONAL WORKERS).
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Minister of Labour if, in view of the recommendations of the Blanesburgh Report, he can now indicate the attitude the Government intend to adopt with regard to seasonal workers?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I regret that I cannot at present add to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on the 9th March regarding this question.

    SHANGHAI DEFENCE FORCE.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Prime Minister whether improved local conditions will render possible a reduction in the strength of the British Defence Force at Shanghai; and whether, in the coming summer, for climatic and health reasons, sections of this force can be transferred to more healthy adjacent stations?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): I have been asked to reply. The situation in China is not yet sufficiently stable to enable a decision to be taken as to reduction in the strength of the Shanghai Defence Force. As regards the second part
    1360
    of the question, I can assure my hon. Friend that this matter has not been overlooked.

    OVERSEAS TRADE DEPARTMENT.
    Colonel VAUGHAN- MORGANasked the Prime Minster whether he is aware that the Balfour Committee on Industry and Trade has already prepared a special Report on the work of the Department of Overseas Trade; and whether he will call for it and give it his consideration?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on the 4th May to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir E. Iliffe). If the Committee desire to make any special representations, these will be considered by the Government together with others which they may receive.
    Sir HENRY CAUTLEY: Is there any reason why this Report should not be made public?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not aware of any.

    FRANCHISE (COMPULSORY VOTING).
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his recent decision regarding the extension of the franchise, he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to enforce the exercise of the franchise before the next General Election?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: May I ask the Prime Minister, with all deference, whether he has considered that the adoption of my suggestion would mean the probable disappearance of His Majesty's Opposition at the next General Election?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question is decidedly argumentative.
    Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: Would not the effect of this legislation be actually to intimidate and coerce the Government?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is another question of the same nature.

    RETIRED COLONIAL GOVERNORS (DIRECTORSHIPS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, since the revised Governors Pensions Act was passed in 1911, any and, if so, which retired colonial governors have received the permission of the Secretary of State to take a directorship in a company operating in a territory where he has recently held office; and whether in any such case the pension continued to be paid?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): If the right hon. and gallant Member will refer to the answer I gave him on the 5th April, he will see that the date in point is not 1911, but 1913, when the Rule was laid down. Since that date, so far as can be ascertained, only one retired governor has received the permission of the Secretary of State to accept a directorship in a company operating in a territory which he formerly governed. This was the right hon. Sir Frederick Lugard, who is a director of a bank whose operations extend, however, to many other parts of the world besides the territory in question. The pension continues to be paid.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: The pension continues to be paid in that case?

    COLONIAL OFFICE CONFERENCE.
    Dr. DRUMMOND SHIELSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a full Report on the proceedings of the Colonial Office Conference will be published; and what opportunity of discussing it will be given to the House?
    Mr. AMERY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the subject is one which could be most appropriately discussed on the Colonial Office Estimates.

    PALESTINE AND TRANSJORDANIA (ENLISTMENT OF JEWS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Jews are admitted into the fighting armies of the Services in Palestine and Transjordania: gendarmerie, frontier force, Air Force and armoured cars?
    Mr. AMERY: Thirty-seven Jews were serving with the Trans-Jordan Frontier Force at the end of 1926. Palestinian Jews are not recruited for the Air Force or the armoured cars; but they are employed as civilians in subordinate capacities in connection with those units. The gendarmerie has been disbanded.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask how long this insulting exclusion of Jews from the armed forces in the country which is supposed to be their homeland is to continue?
    Mr. AMERY: There is no such exclusion; they are serving in the local forces.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: But they are only in civilian rôles in the armed forces.
    Mr. AMERY: No; they are serving in the local forces in every capacity, but in British forces recruited here they are only enlisted for certain auxiliary purposes.

    TRIAL BY JURY (KENYA).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Cecil William Allen, charged with murder or culpable homicide of a native at Nakuru, in Kenya, and acquitted by a European jury; whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter; and why, in accordance with the instructions given in the Duke of Devonshire's despatch in relation to such cases, a jury was not chosen from some distant area who might not be personally acquainted with the accused?
    Mr. AMERY: I have received a full Report on the case. I do not feel called upon to question the verdict of the jury nor to take any steps in the matter. As regards the last part of the question, I am informed that the trial was held in Nairobi in order that the element of personal acquaintanceship with the accused should as far as possible be eliminated from the jury.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Did the right hon. Gentleman read the Judge's summing-up, and did he approve of the line taken by the Judge on this question?
    Mr. AMERY: The Chief Justice reported that there was no evidence of

    1363
    any racial bias exercised in favour of the accused, and that the verdict was satisfactory on that point.

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (FAIR WAGES CLAUSE).
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it is a condition of all contracts that a fair-wages notice shall be exhibited on the works; if so, what steps are taken by the Department to see that this condition is observed; and whether such notice is now exhibited in the case of all contracts running?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Samuel Hoare): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the remaining parts, the opportunity is taken, when a contractor's works are visited, to see whether the notice is exhibited, but in view of the expense involved it would not be practicable to depute a member of the Contracts staff specially to visit all the firms with whom the very large number of Air Ministry contracts are placed in order to verify the point. If the hon. Member has any particular case of this kind in mind and will give me particulars of it, I will have it investigated.

    CIVIL AEROPLANES (FLOATS).
    Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Secretary of State for Air whether there are any regulations requiring all civilian aeroplanes plying for public hire on routes involving passage over the sea to be fitted with floats to ensure safety in case of a forced descent on to the water?
    Sir S. HOARE: The answer is in the negative. There is, however, a regulation which requires that a life-belt for each person on board shall be carried by aircraft engaged on flights at any point of which they are more than 10 miles from the nearest land.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the desirability of enforcing the provision of a fuselage that might float for a certain time? Is that considered to be a practicable policy?
    Sir S. HOARE: There are technical difficulties, obviously, in the way of a proposal of that kind. I am satisfied that all reasonable precautions are taken.

    HYDRO-ELECTRIC WORKS (NORTH WALES).
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the hydroelectric works in the neighbourhood of Snowdon are causing disfigurement to the scenic beauties of the district, particularly in the pass of Llanberis, by the erection of overhead transmission lines with their attendant supporting standards; and whether, in view of the importance of the tourist traffic to the population of this district, he will take steps to require the interests concerned to relay their cables in underground conduits?
    Colonel ASHLEY: My attention has not previously been called to this matter, but such information as I have been able to obtain since the hon. Member gave notice of his question goes to show that the overhead lines to which he refers were erected many years ago with the consent of the Board of Trade. In the event of any application being made to me for further overhead lines, the local authority would be given an opportunity of being heard before any such consent was given, but the desirability of securing all reasonable economy in the production and distribution of electricity is an important consideration, and I should not be prepared to say in advance what my decision on any such application might be.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: In view of the fact that his present office is due to expire shortly, will the right hon. Gentleman pay a personal visit to the Pass of Llanberis and get personal inspiration for his new office elsewhere?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I was round Snowdon only a month ago, looking at roads, but I will go up there if I possibly can.
    Sir JOSEPH NALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that supplies generated from this source are already more expensive than pre-War supplies in this district, and that, if this course is adopted, they will be more expensive still?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I know that underground wires cost, roughly, twice as much.

    ARTERIAL ROADS, GREATER LONDON.
    Mr. B. SMITHasked the Minister of Transport if he will specify the portions of the 189frac34; miles of new arterial roads in Greater London stated in the latest Report of the Road Fund to have been completed, or to be in course of construction, which have yet to be opened?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Sections of a total length of about 50 miles still remain to be opened.
    Mr. SMITH: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, which asks him to specify sections which are yet to be completed?
    Colonel ASHLEY: If the hon. Member will communicate with me, I will give him all the information I have got.

    TRADE BOARDS (CATERING AND DRAPERY TRADES)
    Viscountess ASTORasked the Minister of Labour whether he has maintained observation as to wages and conditions in the catering and drapery trades since the investigations made by his Department in 1926; whether in any district any substantial change in wages and conditions has been observed to take place; and whether he, as the result of such continued observation, has been led to reconsider his decision not to establish Trade Boards for these trades?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative and to the two latter parts in the negative.
    Viscountess ASTOR: In view of the fact that recent investigations have revealed that all women of 21 years of age——
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Noble Lady's question seems to be in writing. I would like to see it.
    Viscountess ASTOR: It is not entirely in writing. Arising out of the fact that all women over 21 years of age, or a great majority of them, in the catering
    1366
    trade were receiving 30s. a week, including tips, and as Mr. Seebohm Rowntree's "The Human Needs of Labour" gave as a standard for women 36s. a week, does not the Minister of Labour think that there is really a need for a Trade Board for these women?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is even more of a speech than I thought.
    Miss WILKINSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain very alarming figures as to the conditions of women, in the catering trade particularly, have recently been published, and is his Department prepared to undertake a special inquiry into this matter under Trade Board Regulations?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: If the hon. Member will show me any figures, I will certainly consider them.

    INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES.
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Minister of Labour in regard to industrial disputes involving stoppages of work during the 32 years from 1893 to 1924, and in which the annual loss of working time was equivalent to less than one day per head of the whole employed population, what proportion of the disputes was due to strikes and what proportion to lock-outs; and how many days lost were due, respectively, to demands for increases of wages and how many to resistance of reductions in wages?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: The official statistics relating to industrial disputes do not differentiate between strikes and lock-outs, and I am, therefore, unable to give the proportion asked for. I propose, with the permission of the hon. Member to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the numbers of days lost owing to disputes arising on questions of wage increases and decreases, respectively.
    Following is the statement:
    Aggregate duration in working days of all industrial disputes involving a stoppage of work which were in progress in Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1896–1924 and which arose principally or solely (1) out of demands for increases in wages, and (2) out of proposed reductions in wages.
    Note.—The figures for years prior to 1910 relate to the United Kingdom including the area of the Irish Free State, the separation of the figures for the latter area not having been carried back beyond 1910. Figures for 1893–95 are not available.
    It should be observed that the figures relate to two classes of wage disputes only, and that other wage disputes, and disputes on questions other than those of wages (accounting, on the average for rather more than one-third of the total number of days lost) are not covered by the figures.

    Year.

    For Increase in Wages.

    Against proposed Reduction in Wages.

    1896

    …

    …

    1,797,000

    578,000

    1897

    …

    …

    1,913,000

    517,000

    1898

    …

    …

    12,506,000

    237,000

    1899

    …

    …

    1,261,000

    139,000

    1900

    …

    …

    1,803,000

    285,000

    1901

    …

    …

    1,099,000

    618,000

    1902

    …

    …

    855,000

    1,182,000

    1903

    …

    …

    566,000

    418,000

    1904

    …

    …

    246,000

    562,000

    1905

    …

    …

    505,000

    671,000

    1906

    …

    …

    1,554,000

    351,000

    1907

    …

    …

    835,000

    109,000

    1908

    …

    …

    880,000

    8,799,000

    1909

    …

    …

    628,000

    283,000

    1910

    …

    …

    499,000

    286,000

    1911

    …

    …

    3,954,000

    287,000

    1912

    …

    …

    2,995,000

    171,000

    1913

    …

    …

    5,720,000

    789,000

    1914

    …

    …

    2,329,000

    2,869,000

    1915

    …

    …

    2,318,000

    22,000

    1916

    …

    …

    1,843,000

    28,000

    1917

    …

    …

    2,061,000

    233,000

    1918

    …

    …

    3,518,000

    188,000

    1919

    …

    …

    22,073,000

    5,558,000

    1920

    …

    …

    22,223,000

    1,200,000

    1921

    …

    …

    255,000

    84,936,000

    1922

    …

    …

    100,000

    5,358,000

    1923

    …

    …

    108,000

    2,253,000

    1924

    …

    …

    5,731,000

    989,000

    WASHINGTON HOURS CONVENTION.
    Viscountess ASTORasked the Minister of Labour whether any decision has yet been arrived at on the question of the ratification by Great Britain of the Washington Hours Convention?
    Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: On the 4th May a statement on this matter, of which I am sending a copy to the Noble
    1368
    Lady, was made on behalf of the Government in another place by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. I am not in a position to add anything to that statement.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not true that the statement was that Lord Cecil was in Geneva? Now that he is back, we would like to get an answer on the point.

  POST OFFICE.

    POSTAL DELIVERIES, HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS.
    Mr. MacKENZIE LIVINGSTONEasked the Postmaster-General whether he will give the names of the localities in the Highlands and Islands which now have fewer postal deliveries than before the War, and which districts are still without a daily delivery of letters?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): The main postal services in the Highlands and Islands are on the same scale as before the War, and the more important districts have a daily delivery of letters. The information for which the hon. Member asks could not be compiled without a considerable amount of labour, which would hardly be warranted, but I shall be glad to consider any particular case he has in mind.
    Mr. LIVINGSTONE: Will the noble Lord say when he expects to get back to the pre-War standard of efficiency of his pre-War predecessor in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland?
    Viscount WOLMER: I do not like to prophesy.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: May I ask whether the answer applies to the County of Orkney, where it is admitted that the pre-War delivery service has not been restored?
    Viscount WOLMER: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: When is it the intention of the Government to restore the pre-War service in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland?
    Viscount WOLMER: We are improving the services as and when we can, but the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the financial limits of the time curb the Post Office and all

    1369
    other Government Departments. We cannot give the service we were able to give before the War at the same cost to the taxpayer.
    Mr. LIVINGSTONE: Why not?
    Viscount WOLMER: Because all the costs have enormously increased, and we are bound, by the limits of economy, to give only such service as we can afford.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Is the Noble Lord aware that there was an enormous surplus on the Post Office last year, and that there are a great many places all over the country—not only in Scotland, but in England and Wales—where the postal facilities are not nearly as good as they were before the War?
    Viscount WOLMER: Really the right hon. Gentleman should address that question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If the postal surplus were not available to relieve taxation, then money would have to be taken from some other source.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir GODFREY DALRYMPLE-WHITE: Is it not a fact that a claim has been put forward by the Post Office workers which would more than take the surplus?
    Mr. HARDIE: Have not the Department considered the question of making deliveries to these outlandish places by air service?
    Viscount WOLMER: The service to these parts is already run at a heavy loss, and I am afraid the proposal of the hon. Member would only add to that loss.

    SENIORITY LIST.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Postmaster-General whether the question of placing the men and women on one senority list has been considered in the Post Office; and, if so, was the idea abandoned and for what reason?
    Viscount WOLMER: Following a recommendation by a committee appointed to consider the application of the principle of common seniority lists for men and women in certain classes in the Civil Service, the question of compiling such lists was brought before the Post Office Departmental Whitley Council in July,
    1370
    1925. The staff side then stated that they desired to give the matter fuller consideration, and would raise it at a subsequent meeting. The staff side have not yet communicated their views on the question, and until they have done, so it is hardly possible to come to any decision in the matter.
    Viscountess ASTOR: May I ask whether there were any women on the committee which had to decide this?
    Viscount WOLMER: I think so, but I would like to have notice of that question.

    RESTAURANTS, EDINBURGH (ASIATIC AND AFRICAN SUBJECTS).
    Mr. SAKLATVALAasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the fact that certain restaurants in Edinburgh are refusing admission to Asiatic and African residents, not because of any complaints against their conduct, which is admitted to be unexceptionable, but on account of their racial origin; and whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to remove this form of discrimination against a section of His Majesty's subjects?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): My attention has been called to the fact that the managers of certain places of entertainment in Edinburgh have taken the unusual step of refusing admission on racial grounds. However much I may regret the fact, I am not aware that I have any power to intervene in the matter, and I am not satisfied that legislation on the lines suggested would be practicable.
    Mr. SAKLATVALA: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the very unpleasant effects that would ensue if in India and elsewhere people took retaliatory measures against white citizens in those countries; and with that in mind will he not at least use his powers and influence to persuade decent citizens of Edinburgh to boycott those restaurants and public places until they withdraw these obnoxious measures?
    Mr. WELLOCK: Could not the right hon. Gentleman remind the people concerned that a considerable number of

    1371
    Scottish students have obtained remunerative positions in the Indian Civil Service?
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Will not the right hon. Gentleman exercise the power, which I take it he has, of refusing a licence to these restaurants which do not allow these people to go there? Has he not that power already, without further legislalation?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no powers to intervene in this matter. The attention which has been drawn to this question will, no doubt, have an influence with those who are concerned.
    Mr. HAYES: In the case of those restaurants which are licensed, will the police bring to the notice of the licensing authorities any complaints that may be made on this score?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: That would be a matter for the licensing bench.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is there any objection to the right hon. Gentleman himself communicating to the local authorities in Edinburgh that this is a very unworthy practice on the part of certain British citizens?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: It does not appear to me to be a matter for the local authorities. It is a matter for decision on the part of the private enterprise which is concerned.
    Mr. LANSBURY: If these are licensed premises, is it not a fact that the local authority who license these premises might be communicated with by the right hon. Gentleman in order to point out to them the grave injustice to our Indian fellow subjects?
    Mr. SKELTON: May I ask whether it would not be gravely improper for the Secretary of State for Scotland to try to interfere with the decision of licensing authorities?
    Miss LAWRENCE: May I ask whether licensed victuallers have a right to refuse refreshments to any members of the general public?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I understood that these were not licensed victuallers.
    HON. MEMBERS: Some are.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I have allowed a large number of supplementary questions, and I think another question ought to be put down on this particular point.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Is it not a fact that citizens of the Empire from Asia and Africa are admitted as students to the University of Edinburgh and all other universities, and is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has the power, if he cares to exercise it, to refuse licences to these restaurants which will not allow these people to come in?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman has no power to give or to refuse those licences.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. CLYNES: May I ask the Prime Minister if he will announce the business for next week?
The PRIME MINISTER: On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill, Committee, fourth to eighth allotted days, inclusive, and, if time permit, other Orders on the Paper; of course bearing in mind what I said earlier in the afternoon, that if the promised statement by the Home Secretary is made on Tuesday, then we are prepared to give Thursday in the event of the Opposition desiring to put down a Vote of Censure, or to put down any Vote on Thursday to enable mere discussion, if that be desired. It is difficult at this moment to say what time will be required next week after the statement is made.
Mr. CLYNES: May I take it that that statement means that the Opposition have a choice of methods with regard to Thursday in the event of their finding it necessary to put down a Motion on the question of the Arcos raid after the Home Secretary's statement on Tuesday next?
The PRIME MINISTER: If the Motion is in the form of a Vote of Censure, of course.
Mr. CLYNES: I understood the Prime Minister to say, "or other Resolution."
The PRIME MINISTER indicated dissent.
Mr. CLYNES: Does the Prime Minister deny to the Opposition the right to frame this Motion in their own terms?
The PRIME MINISTER:The universal practice of the Government, when time is desired, is to give that time on the Vote of the necessary Department, and it is always the choice of the Opposition to call for a day if they desire to put down a Vote of Censure. When the business of the House can easily afford the time, it has been the custom—I have done it myself—to give a separate day entirely; but at this time of the Session it is impossible to spare the day unless it be for the purpose of putting down a Vote of Censure.
Mr. A. HENDERSON: The last reply of the Prime Minister compels me to bring to the notice of the House what has actually taken place on this question of the Government providing time to discuss this Arcos business. On Monday last I was rung up by the Home Secretary, and he appealed to me not to move the Adjournment of the House on that day for reasons which I considered sufficiently important to justify my giving him an undertaking that I would not do so. I then put a question to him as to whether he would arrange with the Prime Minister that we should have time for a Debate immediately following his full statement. Just when I was going to the executive meeting of my party at 1.45 he rang me up again to intimate that he had consulted with the Prime Minister, who had undertaken that we should have time afforded us by the Government for the discussion. There was nothing said as to our taking the Home Office Vote. If it had been mentioned, I should have declined to take it for the reason that the issue raised could not be properly discussed on the Home Office Vote. The Prime Minister this afternoon asked us to defer the question until Thursday to enable the Foreign Minister to be present. I repeat that it cannot properly be discussed on the Home Office Vote. Nor was there anything said to tie the Opposition down to moving a Vote of Censure. Surely if we were promised time, as we were, it should be left to the Opposition to decide what form the Motion should take. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"] Unless we can have an undertaking that the time will be pro-
1374
vided, and that we shall be allowed to put down our own Motion, I must ask you, Mr. Speaker, in view of all that has taken place, to allow me to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to this matter.
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Perhaps I may be allowed to say one word, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will accept what I am going to say. While I accept his statement about the telephone communications, I think I did add that the method must be arranged by an interview between himself and the Chief Whip.
Mr. HENDERSON: I do not think that statement alters the position. I have been long enough in this House to know that arrangements through the usual channels do not permit of the other side dictating in what form a Motion should be moved. I want to appeal to the Prime Minister on this point. He has given us Thursday. Now the question is whether the Opposition is to be entitled to put down its own Motion.
The PRIME MINISTER: On Thursday, on the relevant Vote, the matter can be discussed in all its aspects, and a Motion for the reduction of the Minister's salary can be put down. This does not prejudice any future discussion because, as the House knows, every Vote can be kept open until the House has decided.
Mr. HENDERSON: In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "The issuing by the Home Secretary of a warrant of search for Arcos and also the Trade Delegation, with a view to ascertaining whether the raid on the Trade Delegation was in harmony with the Anglo-Russian Trading Agreement of 1921."
Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I submit that this Motion is wrongly framed, as the warrant was not issued by myself? [HON. MEMBERS: "You authorised it!"] Further than that, I have stated that the Government are not in a position to arrive at a final decision, but that they will be able to announce their final decision on Tuesday next. That being so, there cannot be any possible question of urgency.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: In regard to this Russian organisation, for the first time in modern times we have had a raid by the police searching for a document. In this case, matters have gone very much further. Therefore, I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that this does raise a matter of very urgent and definite public importance, because if the action of the Government be not challenged, other raids may take place on business houses in the City of London.
Sir F. HALL: Is it not a perfectly easy matter for hon. Members to put down a Vote of Censure on the Government?
Mr. SPEAKER: I am put in a position of some difficulty. I was prepared, if I had been asked, to allow a Motion for the Adjournment last Monday when the matter first came to the notice of the House, but, for certain reasons, it was not asked for on that occasion. It seems to me that the Chair would be put at a great disadvantage if the House proceeded to discuss a Motion in regard to which the facts are not wholly before hon. Members. I hope the House will be able to come to some arrangement which will not put me in that position.
The PRIME MINISTER: Would it help if I made the suggestion that we should raise no objection if the Leader of the Opposition would move the Adjournment of the House on Tuesday?
Mr. SPEAKER: I think I ought to point out that on Tuesday we shall be working on the time-table, and that Motion could only come on at the end of the other business.
Mr. CLYNES: May I submit that the Prime Minister entirely overlooks what is the right of the Opposition in regard to such a matter, namely, to frame its own Resolution, after we have heard the statement of the Home Secretary on this question, which has been promised for Tuesday.
The PRIME MINISTER: There is no inherent right in the Opposition to frame their own Resolution, unless they do so in the form of a Vote of Censure.
Mr. CLYNES: If there be no question of a right in this matter, will the Prime Minister leave the Opposition free to frame the Resolution as they think fit?
4.0 p.m.
The PRIME MINISTER: I do not quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman means. The Opposition is always perfectly free to frame a Vote of Censure in any terms it likes, but if it is a Resolution, or the discussion of any subject which does not involve a Vote of Censure, then they have no right to do that. The Government offer them a whole Supply day on which the matter can be discussed, in conformity with the usual and age-long precedent in this House, for a whole day. The only point about that is that, when a matter is discussed on Supply, you do it by moving a reduction of the Vote, and not by putting down a Resolution.
Mr. CLYNES: The fact is that there is more than one Department involved. There are three Departments specifically involved. This, we understand—indeed, we have been informed—is a deliberate act of Government policy which has been the subject of recent Cabinet discussions and decisions. We have been promised a day for the discussion. We await the Home Secretary's information on Tuesday, and I submit that, in such circumstances, the Opposition is entitled to full freedom in the framing of its Resolution after it has heard that statement.
The PRIME MINISTER: If that be the difficulty—which I quite see—I feel confident that, in the circumstances, whichever Vote was put down, the Chairman would allow—at least I hope he would—a discussion covering the whole ground.
Mr. HENDERSON: I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement made about the undertaking given to me by the Home Secretary, on conversations opened up by himself, and subsequently approved by the Prime Minister. To take part of the time to which the Opposition is entitled under the Orders of the House, is not giving us anything at all. I appeal to you as to whether that is carrying out the undertaking that has been entered into.
Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a matter on which I ought to express an opinion. It might, possibly, help the House if I said that I have frequently seen tabled Motions which the Opposition did not characterise as Votes of Censure, but the Government took them as Votes of Censure. There must be some criticism of a

1377
Government in the Motion, unless the Opposition is going to move a vote of approval. It seems to me the two sides are not very far apart.
Mr. CLYNES: Interpreting that statement in the light of what has happened on previous occasions, I can only say that the Opposition will put down its Motion and have the discussion on the Thursday.
The PRIME MINISTER: I accept that.
The following Notice of Motion stood ore the Order Paper in the name of the Prime Minister:
"That the Proceedings on the Finance Bill and on the Post Office (Sites) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of
Supply, and that the Proceedings on the Post Office (Sites) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."
Mr. STEPHEN: I want to raise a point of Order on this Motion. Are there not two distinct Motions included in it, on which the House should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion?
Mr. SPEAKER: Yes, there are two Questions.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Procedings on the Finance Bill and on the Post Office (Sites) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 303; Noes, 137.

Division No. 140.]

AYES.

[4.5 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

chapman, Sir S.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E.)

Albery, Irving James

Christle, J. A.

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Clayton, G. C

Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Astor, Viscountess

Colfox, Major Wm. Philip

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Atholl, Duchess of

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Cope, Major William

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Couper, J. B.

Hammersley, S. S.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Hanbury, C.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Bennett, A. J.

Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Crookshank, Col. C. de W, (Berwick)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Berry, Sir George

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Llndsey, Gainsbro)

Haslam, Henry C.

Betterton, Henry B.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Dalkeith, Earl of

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Dxf'd. Henley)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Blundell, F. N.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Drewe, C.

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Eden, Captain Anthony

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Ellis, R. G.

Hilton, Cecil

Brass, Captain W.

Elveden, Viscount

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Briggs, J. Harold

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Briscoe, Richard George

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Holt, Capt. H. P.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Fielden, E. B.

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Finburgh, S.

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Buchan, John

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Forrest, W.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

Bullock, Captain M.

Foster, Sir Henry S.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)

Bunnan, J. B.

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Frece, Sir Walter de

Hurd, Percy A.

Caine, Gordon Hall

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Campbell, E. T.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Illffe, Sir Edward M.

Carver, Major W. H.

Gates, Percy

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Cassels, J. D.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Jackson, sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Jacob, A. E.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

Goff, Sir Park

Jephcott, A. R.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Grace, John

Jones G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Grant, sir J. A.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Oakley, T.

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

King, Captain Henry Douglas

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Storry-Deans, R.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Streatfelid, Captain S. R.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Lister, Cunilffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Pennefather, Sir John

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Penny, Frederick George

Sueter, Rear Admiral Murray Fraser

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Looker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Templeton, W. P.

Loder, J. de V.

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Looker, Herbert William

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh Vere

Power, Sir John Cecil

Thomson, Rt. Hon. sir W. Mitchell-

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Tinne, J. A.

Lumley, L. R.

Preston, William

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Radford, E. A.

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

Ralne. W.

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Ramsden, E.

Waddington, R.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Maclntyre, Ian

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

McLean, Major A.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Rice, Sir Frederick

Warrender, Sir Victor

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Watson. Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Ropner, Major L.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Ruggles-Briss, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Watts, Dr. T.

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Malone, Major P. B.

Rye, F. G.

White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Salmon, Major I.

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Margesson, Capt. D.

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Meller, R. J.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Meyer, Sir Frank

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Sandon, Lord

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Savery, S. S.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks. W.R., Sowerby)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Wolmer, Viscount

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Shepperson, E. W.

Womersley, W. J.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Skelton, A. N.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.

Wood, sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Smithers, Waldron

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry Barnston.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Dunnlco, H.

Kenworthy, Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lansbury, George

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Fenby, T. D.

Lawrence, Susan

Ammon, Charles George

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Lawson, John James

Attlee, Clement Richard

Gardner, J. P.

Lee, F.

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Gibbins, Joseph

Lindley, F. W.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Gillett, George M.

Livingstone, A. M.

Barnes, A.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lunn, William

Barr, J.

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)

MacLaren, Andrew

Batey, Joseph

Greenall, T.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Bondfield, Margaret

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

March, S.

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Groves, T.

Maxton, James

Briant, Frank

Grundy, T. W.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Broad, F. A.

Hall, F. (York, W. R.. Normanton)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Bromley, J.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Mosley, Oswald

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Hardie, George D.

Murnin, H.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Harris, Percy A.

Palin, John Henry

Buchanan, G.

Hayday, Arthur

Paling, W.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Clowes, S.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Cluse, W. S.

Hirst, G. H.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Potts, John S.

Connolly, M.

Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

Richardson. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Cove, W. G.

Hudson, J. H, (Huddersfield)

Riley, Ben

Crawfurd, H. E.

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Ritson, J.

Dalton, Hugh

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Eliand)

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Rose, Frank H.

Day, Colonel Harry

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Dennison, R.

Kennedy, T.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

1380

1381

Scrymgeour, E.

Sullivan, Joseph

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Sexton, James

Sutton, J. E.

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Taylor, R. A.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Wellock, Wilfred

Slesser, Sir Henry H.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Welsh, J. C.

Smillie, Robert

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Thurtle, Ernest

Wiggins, William Martin

Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

Tinker, John Joseph

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Townend, A. E.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Snell, Harry

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Varley, Frank B.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Viant, S. P.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Stamford, T. W.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Stephen, Campbell

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Mr. Hayes and Mr. Whiteley.

Motion made and Question put:
"That the proceeding on the Post Office (Sites) Bill be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sitting of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 132.

Division No. 141.]

AYES.

[4.15 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Hanbury, C.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Clayton, G. C.

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Albery, Irving James

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

Harrison, G. S. C.

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Harvey, Majors. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Couper, J. B.

Haslam, Henry C.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Courtauld, Major J. S.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

Henderson. Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Astor, Viscountess

Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Atholl, Duchess of

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Barclay-Harvey C. M.

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hilton, Cecil

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. C.

Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Drewe, C.

Holt, Captain H. P.

Bennett, A. J.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Bentlnck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Berry, Sir George

Ellis, R. G.

Hopkinson, sir A. (Eng. Universities)

Betterton, Henry B.

Elveden, Viscount

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

Blundell, F. N.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney. N).

Boothby, R. J. G.

Fermoy, Lord

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Fielden, E. B.

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Finburgh, S.

Hurd, Percy A.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Forestler-Walker, Sir L.

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)

Brass, Captain W.

Forrest, W.

Illffe, Sir Edward M.

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Briggs, J. Harold

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Briscoe, Richard George

Fraser, Captain Ian

Jacob, A. E.

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Frece, Sir Walter de

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Jephcott, A. R.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Ganzonl, Sir John

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Buchan, John

Gates, Percy

Joynson- Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Buckingham, Sir H.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Bullock, Captain M.

Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

Burman, J. B.

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Burton, Colonel H. W,

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Soff, Sir Park

Knox, Sir Alfred

Calne, Gordon Hall

Grace, John

Lister, Cuniffe-. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Campbell, E. T.

Grant, Sir J. A.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Carver, Major W. H.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Cassels, J. D.

Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

Locker, Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Loder, J. de V.

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w,E)

Looker, Herbert William

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)

Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Grotrian, H. Brent

Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Guest. Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

Lumley, L. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Lynn, Sir R. J.

Chapman, Sir S.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Christie, J. A.

Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hammersley, S. S.

Maclntyre, Ian

McLean, Major A.

Radford, E. A.

Templeton, W. P.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Raine, W.

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Maicoim

Ramsden, E.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Tinne, J. A.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.

Rice, Sir Frederick

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Malone, Major P. B.

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Margesson, Captain D.

Ropner, Major L.

Waddington, R.

Meller, R. J.

Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Ward. Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Rye, F. G.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Salmon, Major I.

Warrender, Sir Victor

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Watts, Dr. T.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Sallsbury)

Sandon, Lord

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Cilve

Savery, S. S.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W)

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Shepperson, E. W.

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge

Skelton, A. N.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Oakley, T.

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Smithers, Waldron

Wise, Sir Fredric

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Wolmer, Viscount

Pennefather, Sir John

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Womersley, W. J.

Penny, Frederick George

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Storry-Deans, R.

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Power, Sir John Cecil

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Preston, William

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Price, Major C. W. M.

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Major sir George Hennessy and

Major Cope.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Paling, W.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Groves, T.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Ammon, Charles George

Grundy, T. W.

Potts, John S.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Riley, Ben

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hardie, George D.

Hitson, J.

Barnes, A.

Harney, E. A.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

Barr, J.

Harris, Percy A.

Robinson W.C. (Yorks, W. H., Elland)

Batey, Joseph

Haynay, Arthur

Rose, Frank H.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Hayes, John Henry

Sakiatvaia, Shapurjl

Bondfield, Margaret

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Scrymgeour, E.

Briant, Frank

Hirst, G. H.

Sexton, James

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Bromley, J.

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Smillie, Robert

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Buchanan, G.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Snell Harry

Clowes, S.

Kennedy, T.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Cluse, W. S.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Clynes, Right Hon. John R.

Lansbury, George

Stamford, T. W.

Connolly, M.

Lawrence, Susan

Stephen, Campbell

Cove, W. G.

Lawson, John James

Stewart, J (St. Rollox)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lee, F.

Sullivan, Joseph

Dalton, Hugh

Lindley, F. W.

Sutton, J. E.

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Livingstone, A. M.

Taylor, R. A.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lunn, William

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dennison, R.

MacLaren, Andrew

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Dunnico, H.

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Thorne G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Fenby, T. D.

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Thurtle, Ernest

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

March, S.

Tinker, John Joseph

Gardner, J. P.

Maxton, James

Townend, A. E.

Gibbins, Joseph

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Gillett, George M.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Varley, Frank B.

Gosling, Harry

Mosley, Oswald

Viant, S. P.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Murnin, H.

Wallhead, Richard C.

Greenall, T.

palin, John Henry

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

1384

1385

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Whiteley, W.

Wilson, C. H. (Snemeld, Attercliffs)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Wiggins, William Martin

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Wellock, Wilfred

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Welsh, J. C.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles

Edwards.

MONEYLENDERS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Friday, 1st July, and to be printed. [Bill140]

BILLS REPORTED.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Ouse and Cam Fisheries Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Sheffield Corporation Tramways Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Smethwick Corporation Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
County of London Electric Supply Company. Bill,
Reported, with Amendments: Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE A.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A: Sir Henry Cautley, Lord Erskine, Sir Alfred Hopkinson, Mr. Alfred Kennedy, Mr. Kidd, Sir Malcolm Macnaghten, and Mr. Womersley; and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Viscountess Astor, Major Broun-Lindsay, Captain Hacking, Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth, Major MacAndrew, and Major Sir Granville Wheler.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Mental Deficiency Bill): Mr. Briant, Mr. Chamberlain, Mr. Charleton, Mr. Rhys Davies, Dr. Vernon Davies, Lieut.-Colonel Fremantle, Major-General Sir Richard Luce, Mr. March, Sir Douglas Newton, Mr. Geoffrey Peto, Mrs. Philipson, Colonel Wedgwood, Commander Charles Williams, Mr. Crompton Wood, and Sir Kingsley Wood.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  FINANCE BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  In some ways the Second Reading of the Finance Bill differs from the ordinary Second Reading of a Bill to which the House is accustomed, because as a rule the Second Reading is the first opportunity that the House has of learning of some particular line of policy of the Government, or at all events some particular proposal for giving effect to that policy. But in the case of the Finance Bill, the conditions are very different. It is only one stage, and not the first stage, in a long and elaborate process by which the House of Commons examines and controls the financial Measures of the year. The contents of this Bill do not come before the House as a novelty. They have been both in principle, and to a large extent in detail, already discussed, first on the Budget Statement made by my right hon. Friend, and also on the Budget Resolutions which have covered a very large part of the ground. I, therefore, cannot pretend that I have anything startling and original to lay before the House in asking them to accept the Second Reading of this Bill. Nor can I say that I anticipate to hear from the opposite side of the House any opinions or arguments with which we are not very familiar already. I have no doubt that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will trudge over well-worn ground with no less vigour than usual. I shall be a good deal surprised if they do not wear even thinner than it is already the threadbare theme of their objection to indirect taxation, and I expect that they will attach themselves as enthusiastically as ever to the often exploded fallacy that direct taxation falls upon the rich and indirect upon the poor.
  I am prepared for the renewal of the condemnation of the McKenna Duties, a condemnation which is neither modified nor softened by the accumulated proofs we have of the benefits conferred in the
  1404
  way of employment and otherwise. I have no doubt that the Clause which in this Bill makes a single modest addition to the list of Safeguarding Duties will arouse a fresh outburst of Free Trade oratory. Probably it will be most exuberant from hon. Members below the Gangway, the party responsible for the inauguration of these duties, and will be supplemented with varying degrees of enthusiasm above the Gangway where sometimes we hear expressions of misgiving in regard to that condemnation. The Bill also, of course, gives further opportunities to hon. Gentlemen who are hostile to the whole system of Imperial Preference. I remember that in a recent Debate the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins) told us that a policy of economy could be pursued by sweeping away the whole of this pernicious system, as he thinks it, of Imperial Preference. I tried to ascertain from him whether he was expressing the opinion of the party of which he is an ornament, but he was too cautious to allow that he spoke for anyone but himself. I have no doubt that we shall hear, in the course of this Debate, what the views of the Liberal party are on this question of Imperial Preference, which we have done our best to stabilise in our fiscal system, and which, again, I may remind hon. Members opposite, was first placed upon our Statute Book by a Government of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was the head. It will come before the House in the Clauses dealing with the taxation of wines and tobacco, and we shall look with interest to see how it is received by our opponents in the House. Then I wonder if any hon. Member will be resourceful enough to find anything completely novel to say about the transfer of the Road Fund surplus to the Exchequer, or whether the old absurdities about robbery, larceny, violation of pledges——
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question? Is he not aware that the phrase about larceny was used by an hon. Member behind him, the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Crompton Wood)?
  Mr. McNEILL: What in the world has that to do with it? I am speaking, as the right lion. Gentleman the Member

  1405
  for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) Knows perfectly well, of expressions which have been used by him. He speaks with great authority in this House, and I shall be interested to see whether these old absurdities are brought out again to have another trot round the course for a final lap. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley has such a rich vocabulary of invective that I hope we may count upon him, even if he does not give us anything new in the way of arguments, at all events to entertain us with some fresh epithets of abuse. If he does, we shall listen to them with complete equanimity, because we know very well that, whatever may be the view of the right hon. Gentleman, the taxpayers who have provided the £12,000,000 of surplus, and to whom the money belongs, would infinitely prefer that that money should be employed to relieve the general needs of the State rather than that fresh burdens should be laid upon their own shoulders. There is one other respect, if I may say so, in which I am counting on the right hon. Gentleman the Member. for Colne Valley, and I hope my confidence will not be disappointed. In the Finance Debates of last year the right hon. Gentleman complained of what he holds to be the gross and culpable under-taxation of agriculture, and, in reply to an observation of mine, he levelled at us what no doubt he considered to be the deepest possible reproach. He said, "The farmers are the pampered darlings of the Tory party."
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Is that an exact quotation?
  Mr. McNEILL: I am speaking from memory.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: The right hon. Gentleman says he is speaking from memory, and that is not an exact quotation. I am speaking from memory also, but I think, if he will refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that I said "agriculture," and not "the farmers." The reason why I say that is that that alleged expression of mine has been used on hundreds of Tory platforms, and it is always "the farmers" and not "agriculture."
  Mr. McNEILL: I am quite ready to accept the correction, if the right hon. Gentleman thinks there is really a dis-
  1406
  tinction, but I am quite clear about this, that, at the time when the right hon. Gentleman used the expression, we were discussing the taxation of farmers. He and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) had both been saying that the farmers were under-taxed because of the method by which Schedule D is applied to them, and it was in answer to an observation on that point from myself that the right hon. Gentleman said—I accept his term—that agriculture was the pampered darling of the Tory party. The right hon. Gentleman says it has been helped a great deal, and that is quite true. I certainly have been trying to help the right hon. Gentleman in that respect. No doubt he wishes that his views should be known as widely as possible, and I have been doing a little propaganda for him; and I have found that when his views are quoted, as he says they have been, and as I can confirm, they always excite great interest. In fact, I have never alluded to them without being greeted with laughter and cheers. The reason why I mention this is because the present Bill gives the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity, which I earnestly trust he will not neglect, to repeat that expression of opinion, and, possibly, to expand it, because in Clause 11 of this Bill we are making a small alteration in the scale of duty on heavy motor vehicles, the effect of which is to give a certain measure of relief to those employed solely in agriculture. It is quite true that this is no more than is strictly just to a very sorely tried industry, but I am confident that that will not deter the right hon. Gentleman from repeating his bitter complaint that agriculture is the pampered darling of the Tory party.
  At the end of the first part of the Bill, immediately following the Clause to which I have just alluded, hon. Members will find three or four Clauses the contents of which were not discussed, either in the general Budget Debate or on the Budget Resolutions. They are Clauses dealing with an Amendment of the law in regard to the manufacture of spirits, and, as the subject has not been referred to before, I would like to say a few words with regard to the necessity for those Clauses.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: Which Clauses are they?
  Mr. McNEILL: Clauses 12, 13, 14 and 15. When the Spirits Act was passed, half a century ago, practically the only use to which alcohol was devoted was the refreshment and nourishment of the inner man, or, as some people think, the poisoning of the inner man. At that time, about half a century ago, spirits were really only a beverage. They were, no doubt, put to other uses in small quantities, but they were quite sufficiently dealt with for purposes of taxation, when applied to other objects, by a system of remission of duty on the quantities so used. In more recent times, however, alcohol has come to have an increasing use for other purposes than that of drinking—much more important and beneficial purposes. It is used extensively and increasingly, not only as a fuel for generating power, but also in a great number of industrial processes of manufacture. The restrictions imposed upon the manufacture of alcohol and spirits under the old Act are, therefore, in an increasing degree hampering industry and proving a difficulty in the development of some manufacturing processes.
  The House must bear in mind that the Spirits Act does a great deal more than merely impose taxation upon alcohol. That is not the worst part of it, because it imposes very rigid rules on the manner of producing spirits, and on the ways in which they may be handled when produced. For example, under the Spirits Act, spirits may only be moved from a distillery in casks—a very appropriate way so long as it is merely a question of a beverage; but to insist now, when spirits are used for industrial purposes, that they shall only be moved in casks, is not only extremely inconvenient, but adds greatly, in some cases, to the cost of production. It is now desired that it shall be permissible to carry spirits about in tank wagons and, in some cases, even by pipe-lines, and it is in order to remove those hampering and obsolete restrictions upon the use of alcohol for industrial purposes that we are now proposing the alterations in the Clauses to which I have referred. Of course, I need not say that they also contain carefully thought out safeguards to provide that there is no loss of revenue, and that the freedom given shall not be taken advantage of in any improper way, either to the detriment of the Revenue or of anything else.
  Mr. HARDIE: With regard to Clause 13, I should like to ask whether, where distilleries manufacture spirits required for industrial or power purposes, the Regulations will be so relaxed as to prevent the necessity for shutting down at the end of three working days, and to allow a complete working week, in order that the bulk of the crude washings may be got right through for use for power purposes.
  Mr. McNEILL: I could not answer that question in quite such precise detail at the present moment. What we are proposing to do is to give the Inland Revenue authorities power to make regulations which will enable alcohol to be used in the way I have described without at the same time involving any loss to the Revenue. Whether it would have the exact effect that the hon. Gentleman puts to me at this moment, I am not prepared to say. That is a point which he and I can, of course, discuss when we get to the Clause in Committee; but, as regards Clause 13, to which the hon. Gentleman refers, the purpose of that Clause is to make modifications in the restrictions which have been placed upon the process of distillation itself. What happens in modern times is that distillation takes place as a mere incident in other processes, and it is not the main object of the manufacture concerned. It is when it arises in that form that these provisions in Clause 13 deal with it. I have not the least doubt that these provisions will commend themselves to the House, because, if necessary, there will be no difficulty in showing that they are really required in the interests of the promotion of manufacturing processes in this country. Until these changes are made, there is a very serious handicap placed upon certain trades.
  But, undoubtedly, the Clauses to be found in Parts II and III are the most important part of the Bill. I should like to remind the House of what was said on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement in anticipation of these Clauses. Of course, at that time, the Bill had not been drafted. My right hon. Friend was outlining his intention with regard to the simplification of Income Tax and Super-tax, and he used these words:
  "The details of the scheme will be set forth in the Clauses of the Finance Bill

  1409
  in language which I may say with safety very few people will understand."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th April, 1927; col. 84, Vol. 205.]
  How far that particular prophecy will be fulfilled, as these Clauses are studied, I am not in a position to say.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: It applies to all your Bill.
  Mr. McNEILL: I think it is very probable that hon. Members who are lawyers will find, in relation to the study of these Clauses, that their technical training equips them with an advantage which other hon. Members will probably envy in trying to master Clauses 17 to 44. Several of these rather formidable-looking Clauses deal with points that were raised last year, when hon. Members called attention to various cases of hardship which they foresaw could arise in the transition which was then announced from one system of Income Tax assessment to another—from the existing three years' average to the basis of the previous year. For example, Clauses 26 and 27, I think, are designed to meet criticisms which were made last year by several hon. Members, but especially by the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams). I remember that he brought forward these cases, and I said I was advised that they did require consideration and that they would receive consideration before the Debates of this year. But it is quite unnecessary, I think, in the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill, to go into the rather intricate and technical details contained in these Clauses; when we reach Committee they can be discussed more fully. I hope it will be found, when we do discuss them in Committee, that the points raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading and other hon. Members have been, and that they will admit they have been, satisfactorily and reasonably provided for.
  Speaking in quite general terms, the main purpose of those two Parts of the Bill are twofold. The first is, to carry further the system of simplification of Income Tax and Super-tax, which was begun by the Finance Bill of last year when the basis of assessment for Schedule D was changed to the income of the previous year. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated last year in outline what the scheme of
  1410
  simplification was to be, and some of the Clauses with which we have now to deal are designed to carry that system into effect. For example, in Clause 42, hon. Members will see that the intention is to change the basis of assessment for income falling under Schedule E from its present basis of the current year to the basis of the previous year, so as to bring it into line with Schedule D. Hon. Members will see that we are, by removing the disparity between those two Schedules, taking a big step towards the complete simplification which we have in view, because the effect of that provision will be that practically all income, except that which is taxed by deduction at the source, will uniformly be charged on the single, simple basis of the income of the previous year. That is one main object of those two Parts of the Bill.
  The second main object is, to stop up certain loopholes which lead to the legal avoidance of taxation. The ingenuity which is shown in avoiding taxation is, of course, perfectly legitimate so long as it is merely taking advantage of the provisions of the present law; but, nevertheless, it is the duty of the Revenue authorities, as far as they can, when they discover the use which is being made of them, to stop up these loopholes in the interests of the Revenue and in the interests of other taxpayers. It is quite clear that if one individual, by the exercise of a particular ingenuity in relation to the existing law, manages to escape certain burdens of taxation to which he otherwise would have to submit, that that deficiency has, pro tanto, to be made good by other people who are not in a position to take advantage of the same loopholes.
  I referred to one or two of these devices in the Debate on the Financial Resolutions on which the Clauses of this Bill are founded, and I do not propose to refer to them again on the present occasion; but there are one or two others to which I might allude. I think probably the largest gaps through which a coach and four, to use the old expression, or perhaps I should now say a motor car, can be driven through an Act of Parliament, are those which are dealt with in Clauses 29 and 30. One of the devices used by the taxpayer is to make use for his own purposes of the general company law of the country. Clause 29 deals with what is commonly known as

  1411
  the one-man company. Of course, it must not be thought that those loopholes are now discovered for the first time. They have been known for some time to the Revenue authorities, who have been watching them, and who are always prepared, when the gap gets to dimensions menacing to the revenue, to propose the necessary amending law. This particular device of the one-man company was, in fact, dealt with by the Finance Act, 1922, but the provision that was then made has not proved as effective as it was hoped, and that is why we have to ask for this amendment. By the Finance Act, 1922, it was provided, in the case of certain companies which were defined for the purposes of the Act, that if a reasonable proportion of the profits of the company were not distributed to the shareholders as income, then the Inland Revenue authorities were given power to treat the whole of the profits which accrued to the company as if they had been distributed, and to follow these profits to the shareholders and charge the shareholders the Super-tax to which they would become liable if these profits raised their income above the limits on which Super-tax was chargeable.
  Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: The Super-tax under Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922, is payable, not by the shareholders but by the company. It is an important point.
  Mr. McNEILL: The point I am dealing with is that where the profits are not distributed but are retained, the Revenue authorities have the right to consider these profits as if they had been distributed.
  Mr. RADFORD: I think the Section of the Act of 1922 provides that a notice of the charge of Super-tax under that Section was, in the first instance, to be served on the member of the company, and if that member does not within 28 days pay the tax, it can be claimed from the company.
  Mr. HERBERT: He would not pay, and need not.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. McNEILL: That point is not of importance from the point of view of what I am now saying. It is a minor point as to the way in which the tax is
  1412
  recoverable. The real point of importance is that the tax should be recoverable even although the profits have not been distributed. The reason why that Act proved ineffective for its purpose was on account of the definition that was given of the companies to which it should apply. It was confined to companies which were registered since 1914, and they had to be companies which had less than 50 shareholders and which offered no share capital to the public. It is clear to us now that those pro visions were open to evasion and have been evaded, because it was not found impossible to get over the condition about nominating or securing 50 shareholders, each one of whom had some quite nominal amount of capital. A shilling share to each of 50 shareholders was sufficient to get over that provision. In the same way it was quite easy to get over the provisions with regard to capital offered to the public. All it was necessary to do was to offer some nominal sum, say £5 or £10 of capital, to be subscribed for by the public and the condition was satisfied. Therefore, we are now proposing to make an alteration and bring all companies within the purview of that Act if they are bona fide controlled by not more than five persons, and the effect, which was impossible by the earlier Statute, should be effectively secured by this. Clause 30 aims at rather a different device of people who take advantage of company law. It is not an uncommon device. I do not say device in any offensive sense—it may be perfectly legitimate—but it often occurs that there is a whole succession of companies—there may be only one or two or there may be more—each one holding the shares of the company above itself in the succession. We will say Company A's shares are held by Company B, and Company B's shares are held by Company C. Then when the profits made are distributed, they do not go to individual shareholders at all, because the shareholder of Company A is not an individual but a company, and by that means ingenious people have undoubtedly escaped taxation to which they otherwise would have been liable. We propose in the Bill that in such cases the Revenue authorities should be able to track down to the ultimate actual individual shareholder, who is the real beneficiary, through no matter how many intervening companies, and when they

  1413
  have found the person who is to enjoy the actual income from the profit, to make him liable to taxation.
  Another matter to which I ought, perhaps, to allude is the device of those who hold debentures in companies. It is possible by selling the debentures, on the eve of payment of interest, cum dividend, and repurchasing them afterwards when the dividend has been extracted, to avoid having the benefit he derives from the debentures coming to him in the form of taxable income, and by that means there has also been a good deal of avoidance of taxation. That, again, is a matter with which we are dealing, and when we come to the Clause in which it is embodied, hon. Members may be able to make some suggestions with regard to it. There are other Clauses, but I only want to give the general intention of the purpose in view. They will all be subject to examination, and hon. Members who find the truth of what my right hon. Friend said about the power of understanding language will possibly have to take expert advice as to the meaning of the language. My present purpose is really to do no more than indicate generally the purpose in view of these very formidable-looking provisions in this formidable Bill. I do not think any of them, so far as I have been able to follow opinions expressed in the House in the past, are likely to excite much hostility in any part of the House. Nevertheless, one must bear in mind that hon. Members opposite, who have given notice that they are going to move the rejection of the Bill as a whole of course, cannot escape the responsibility for manifesting their opposition, nor can they avoid the opposition they are showing to the scheme of simplification which is embodied in the Bill, and which is, indeed, really the most important part of the Bill. The actual modifications that are made in taxation are quite inconsiderable, and I have not seen, either from the Debates in the House or from comments in the Press, that the proposals have excited any great amount of opposition. On the contrary, both in principle and in detail my right hon. Friend's proposals for dealing with an extremely difficult financial situation have been recognised as bringing great relief to people who apprehended a much worse state of
  1414
  affairs. I think public opinion outside has been very emphatic in approval of the financial proposals for the year, and I ask the House with confidence to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
  Mr. LEES-SMITH: I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
  The House, I am sure, is greatly obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the careful and detailed explanation he has given of highly technical matters, which was very interesting and very necessary, and will greatly facilitate our discussions in Committee. But he began by making a number of statements, which were highly controversial and provocative of debate, with which I should like to deal. He said he had no doubt the arguments we intended to use would cover well-worn ground which he had heard dozens and hundreds of times. I regret the more that we must have entirely failed to make him understand them, as his speech has shown not only that he made no attempt to answer them, but that he, apparently, does not know what they are. Let me take the main example he quoted. Perhaps the broadest issue between the two sides of the House now is that as to the relative place in our system of taxation of direct and indirect taxation. He ascribed to us as our reason for prefering direct taxation the argument that we believe in the exploded fallacy that direct taxation falls only upon the rich, and indirect taxation only upon the poor.
  Let me once more put to him our argument on this question, and put it to him not as an argument between those who stand for the interests of the poor and the rich, but on the ground of the industrial progress and efficiency of this country. What is the present position? We have a million people unemployed and yet the Report of the Ministry of Labour points out that there are great industries which, in spite of all the difficulties of last year, increased in prosperity, particularly in the Midlands and the South and the West. That means that our unemployment and our industrial stagnation are getting concentrated in certain particular industries and certain staple industries, those dependent mainly for their prosperity

  1415
  on holding their own in our export market, such as iron and steel, engineering, coal mining and so on. The object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be to frame this Bill so as to give special assistance and nourishment to those industries that are struggling against the greatest difficulties.
  This is a very different argument from the kind of thing he ascribed to us. Go to any of these industries, and ask what they want, and they all reply that what they want is a reduction on their standing charges, so that they can bring down their costs and their prices and compete on more level terms with their rivals in foreign markets. A reduction of Income Tax and Super-tax does not help them. It helps people who are living on debentures or War Loan or the shares of great companies, but it does not help these industries. They are not making a profit, so they are not paying any Income Tax. But the results of the reduction of Income Tax, the increase in rates and insurance contributions actually increase their standing charges and add to their difficulties. That is our argument. It has never been answered yet. The purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day ought to be to give the greatest assistance to those industries which are struggling against the greatest difficulties. This Government for three years has so framed its Budgets as to injure them, and give the greatest assistance to those sections of the population who already enjoy the greatest share of the national wealth.
  The right hon. Gentleman says these are well-worn arguments. They may be. Our well-worn arguments and the well-worn arguments used from the other side of the House have lately been submitted to a very impartial tribunal consisting of a large majority of Members entirely opposed to the views of the Labour party. They have been submitted to the Colwyn Committee. The Majority Report is signed solely by the most representative industrialists, financiers and accountants, whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer, assisted by the Treasury, consulted. That Majority Report has confirmed the arguments that we have put before this House for years. What is our position I We say this. First of all, the Budget should assist those depressed industries by reducing rates and standing charges. It
  1416
  ought also to provide for the increase of the Sinking Fund to at least the £75,000,000 a year laid down by the Colwyn Committee, and it ought also to provide the financial margin which is essential for the social expenditure necessary to raise the people's standard of civilisation and of life. These should be the three purposes of a Budget to-day. These purposes cannot be fulfilled by any Budget introduced by the Conservative Government, because they are in conflict with this continuous attempt to reduce direct taxation, which is the main objective of Conservative finance. I mentioned the Colwyn Committee. I notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not very ready to refer to the Colwyn Committee. He has begun to treat it as a joke, and the only reference he made was to the effect that he was very grateful to the Committee because it had afforded a dignified burial to the Capital Levy.
  I wish to say a word or two on that subject. The Colwyn Committee, as a matter of fact, examined the ordinary arguments against the Capital Levy and came to the conclusion that what I may call the electioneering arguments—the arguments which hon. Members opposite used on public platforms—broke down upon close examination. The fact which did determine the minds of the Colwyn Committee was, that a Capital Levy, in order to be carried out, would need the co-operation of the banks and other great financial institutions, and that it could be wrecked by those financial institutions by creating financial embarrasment which they had it in their power to create. That is to say, the argument against a Capital Levy which impressed the minds of the majority of the Colwyn Committee was that the possessive classes were in a position to take action calculated to coerce the Government in a manner not covered by the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill. Therefore, the main reason why this body rejects the Capital Levy is the discreditable and disreputable fact that the financial interests in this country—the capitalistic classes in this country—have extra-Parliamentary methods of defeating Acts passed constitutionally through this House. The Committee took it for granted, that, having that power, they would ruthlessly use it while working men were being sent to prison for two years. That was where the Majority Report ended. The Minority Report went

  1417
  on to make proposals to deal with this particular difficulty and I wish to put these proposals shortly to the House, because I was one of the signatories to the Minority Report. As far as the views of the Colwyn Committee on the effects of direct and indirect taxation are concerned, I would very gladly have signed the Majority Report, because they expressed the views we have been expressing here for years. But I signed the Minority Report because it proposed a substitute for a Capital Levy. It proposed that there should be a special surtax on income derived from unearned sources. The surtax was to be paid practically by the same class as would pay a Capital Levy, but it would be capable of defeat by extra-Parliamentary methods. Broadly, the position which they took is this. As the House knows, the Income Tax at present comes broadly from two directions. It comes from income dependent upon personal exertion—earned income; and it, comes from income derived from investment, property and shares—unearned income, which comes from owning instead of from earning.
  Mr. CADOGAN: Earnings can be invested, can they not?
  Mr. LEES-SMITH: Certainly. The earnings having been invested, the interest is then derived from owning. That is what it means. In discussing this question, I have been surprised that hon. Members on the opposite benches always discuss the effect of Income Tax as if it would be the same for Income Tax on earned income and Income Tax on unearned income. As a matter of fact, the Minority Report of the Colwyn Committee came to the conclusion that the industrial effects would be very different. Why do the Government always urge that it is necessary to reduce direct taxation? The argument they always use is, that the reduction of Income Tax will stimulate the enterprise and the industry of the community. That argument applies to that section of the community which is giving its service to industry and enterprise. It does not apply to the section which receives its income, so to speak, while it sleeps without being under the necessity of giving to industry or enterprise any return. Let me quote a case. The mere fact that you lower the Income Tax on the un-
  1418
  earned incomes of ladies living in the suburbs on, say, debentures or War Loan does not stimulate their industry or enterprise, or that of those living on rents or mortgages, or the shares of great limited companies. The fact is—and I would ask the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) to appreciate the nature of this argument——
  Sir FREDRIC WISE: I have already replied, about three years ago, to the argument.
  Mr. LEES-SMITH: I am very pleased, but neither the Financial Secretary nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer has replied as yet. I hope we shall have a reply to-night. The fact is, that the economic effects are quite different. You can tax unearned income without having industrial repercussions. The ordinary position is, that by adjusting your taxation so as to obtain a larger proportion from unearned incomes and a smaller proportion from earned incomes, you can obtain a larger total revenue with less injurious results than you obtain by the present method. It would be fairer and more just. There is a great difference between earned and unearned incomes. The man living on earned income has a precarious income. If a man becomes ill, or dies, or grows old, or loses his goodwill, his occupation disappears. Comparatively speaking, unearned income is a secure income. The man who possesses that need not trouble to the same extent about saving, and about insuring his life and his home, hut can indulge in whatever tastes or interests he prefers. That being so, the difference between these two types of incomes is so far-reaching that it should be marked, not by a mere differentiation, but by a special difference in taxation. The Minority Report proposed that there should be, as an alternative to the Capital Levy, a special tax on that portion of income which comes from unearned sources. It would be imposed only upon those who had unearned incomes of over —500 a year, so as practically to bring within its range those who would be included in the Capital Levy. It would not be a flat rate tax. It would be a graduated tax, with exemptions, equivalent to a flat rate tax of 2s. in the £.
  The Inland Revenue put forward estimates as to what the result would be,

  1419
  and their estimates were that such a tax as this would give a yield of about £85,000,000, or rather more than the annual savings that would have been effected by the Capital Levy as it was originally proposed. That is to say, this tax would affect the same class as would have paid the Levy. The only difference would be that the annual payment would be slightly more than if the Capital Levy had been imposed. It would be a tax, not on capital, but on the income derived from capital. It would not need any assessement or valuation; it would be carried through by the ordinary machinery of the Income Tax, which, of course, has been tested for 100 years. It could very easily be carried through in the lifetime of one Parliament. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was mistaken when he said that the Capital Levy was dead. The Capital Levy has arisen out of the Colwyn Committee, with its youth renewed. It has arisen in a new shape, and in a shape which cannot be damaged or destroyed by the financial interests which are allied with the Conservative party.
  Mr. TOWNEND: I beg to second the Amendment.
  The opening remarks of the Financial Secretary, in addition to being provocative in the debating sense, contained something which was alarming, in the suggestion of certain lines that would be followed in dealing with some items in the Finance Bill. I was strengthened in the action which I have to take in seconding this Amendment, by the knowledge that whether the old arguments are to be followed or not, as long as the old arguments are true, they will bear repetition, and they must be repeated over and over again until some kind of appreciation of the truth on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is brought about: perhaps a difficult proceeding.
  I do not intend to follow any wide field of discussion, but to concentrate what I have to say mostly on Clause 46. The House will remember that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced this Budget he took us on a journey, a kind of Alpine Expedition, where we travelled from crag to crag, and he asked us to view with him the various aspects
  1420
  of Jordan through his particular glasses. Not only did he paint a certain picture as it related to the additional duty on tobacco, but he was followed on the same line by the Financial Secretary. I mention this, because I was particularly concerned as a pipe-smoker. I wish to emphasise the point that often the benevolent promises of the tobacco manufacturers and the gullibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer can be demonstrated within the lapse of a short time, and certainly it has been demonstrated to-day. On one of his crags or, rather, on the tobacco plateau, the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out to us the countrymen who smoked cheap tobacco, carrying on in the same old way in 1926 and 1927, the additional Duty being paid by the benevolent tobacco manufacturer. That theory has been exploded. I do not, however, expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer to admit that the Tobacco Duty is borne by the person who smokes the tobacco.
  As the Chancellor of the Exchequer progressed towards the goal at which he was aiming, nearer and nearer came the margin between the wealth that he was acquiring from certain sources and the figure that he had to balance, and in achieving that balance he arrived at a stage where there was only a difference between the figures of £20,000,000 to £30,000,000. I suppose that I had the same experience as other hon. Members. We sat listening for his next words, with bated breath. There had been various promises made, and the Press had given certain indications of the direction which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to take. As I listened to his speech, I thought that his supporters were going to get a surprise. I said to myself, that the right hon. Gentleman had explored every other resource and that there was only one that he could take, and that was that he would be compelled to impose a further 6d. on the Income Tax. What a surprise that would have been to his supporters. I thought that was the direction which he was going to take. The surprise came, but it was not in the direction that I expected, because he bridged the gulf of £20,000,000 to £30,000,000 not by going to his supporters in the direction that I had dreamed of, but by going in another direction.

  1421
  Once more, in spite of the rightful and healthy criticism to which the right hon. Gentleman had been subjected 12 months' previously, he turned to the Road Fund and raided it, although he must have known in his heart that that Fund had been pledged for other purposes. I do not think that anyone would have prophesied that, once again, he would have met his difficulties by taking the same step that he took in 1926. However, with the audacity for which he is noted, he extended his hand to this particular roost, and withdrew £12,000,000.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): Hear, hear!
  Mr. TOWNEND: The hon. Member for Barnstaple (Sir Basil Peto), referring to the right hon. Gentleman's capacity for moving in this direction, said that he had shown a finished dexterity in extricating himself from a difficult financial position. Hon. Members on the Liberal benches, who are perhaps better equipped for dealing with this position than I am, may be inclined to refer to the right hon. Gentleman's action as unscrupulous audacity. We on these benches, who are in the habit of calling a spade a spade, say quite frankly that the right hon. Gentleman was guilty of an act of sheer robbery, knowing as he must know that the action he took was to take away money belonging to another Department, which had been collected for a specific purpose. In taking that money and using it in the way he did, he was guilty of deliberate robbery. One can only expect it from the right hon. Gentleman, because he is a law unto himself. He is always prepared to argue every way, according to the position with which he is confronted. His facility for so doing is envied by certain people.
  I have heard him condemn very strongly certain Near-Eastern Governments because, forsooth, they are not prepared to subscribe to the pledge of a Government which existed 10 years previously; for instance, the Soviet Government in refusing to stand by the pledges of the Czarist regimé, while, on the other hand, he comes forward and argues that although a promise was given in 1921 that the money of the Road Fund would be exclusively used for the development and maintenance of the roads, yet in 1926 and again this year, applying the well-known
  1422
  law of his own peculiar personality, he disregards that pledge because the National Exchequer requires the money. I suppose he is prepared to argue that the ends justify the means. I have never been able to find him indulging in any other policy than that, whenever he has been endeavouring to justify action which he may have taken in respect of financial proposals submitted by him as Chancellor of the Exchequer. One may sum up his arguments in this way. He says, in effect, here is a Fund in regard to which large liabilities have been contracted; but despite the fact that they have been contracted and despite the fact that, resolute efforts to spend the accumulated wealth of the Fund have been made, the coffers of that Fund are overflowing, and although they are but sufficient to carry out the great undertakings into which the Road Fund has entered, sound finance demands that the money shall be taken from the Road Fund and handed over to the National Debt Commission. From his point of view sound national finance justifies the taking of this money and its use for whatever purpose is thought desirable by the Exchequer.
  In 1921, the Road Fund was clearly established for a specific purpose. Year after year the returns of the Road Fund have increased to the extent of thing like £2,000,000 per annum. From 1922 to 1926 the receipts from motor-vehicle taxation had increased from something like £12,500,000 to £18,500,000. At the same time the demands upon that money have greatly increased. The number of motor vehicles, in respect of which licences have been taken out has increased by 100 per cent., with the result, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows, that the roads are used to an extent never before experienced. He knows of the ever-increasing stream of traffic that is passing along the roads. We have the one-way traffic outside this House. In the place where I live we have a regular stream of traffic passing in the early morning out into the lovely Cheshire country for a day's pleasure, and we have a similar stream coming back at night, until there is no chance of getting across the road.
  These vehicles are all making their demands upon the roads, and they are contributing their quota to the Road Fund and calling upon the Road Fund for far better consideration than they

  1423
  have received hitherto; but the money has been denied to them simply because for the last three years the Government have been responsible for a deliberate policy—despite the claims that have been made upon them by the county councils and the town councils to provide the wherewithal to improve the roads—for the specific purpose of enabling the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get out of his difficulties. Bearing in mind the pledge made in 1924 by the Government, and considering that at the present time the commitments of the Road Fund far exceed the balance which stands to its account, surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer is guilty of something which some day he will regret. According to the reports to-day the number of unemployed in this country has been reduced. While we are all pleased that it should be so, we also know that figures are most misleading, and it is part of the policy of this Government to force thousands of people from the Employment Exchanges on to the boards of guardians, compelling them to impose additional burdens on the local rates, and thereby preventing local authorities from providing their share of the money necessary for the improvement of the roads.
  If the Chancellor of the Exchequer will cast his mind back on the last 12 months, he will know that there have been many appeals from local authorities for money for the development and maintenance of existing roads, and the creation of new roads, and if this money had been granted it would have found work for thousands of unemployed men. Is it possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to turn his attention to other avenues rather than continue this raid on the Road Fund? He must admit the arguments which have been adduced here and in other places, and he will appreciate the fact that in putting them forward we do so in all sincerity. Despite what the Parliamentary Secretary has said, we are compelled to reiterate them, and to remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has been guilty of almost criminal neglect of his responsibilities to other sections of the community in his desire to present a balance sheet which he should have balanced by those other means of taxation which have been suggested by the Mover of the Amendment.
  Sir ROBERT THOMAS: The hon. Member who has just sat down has flung a challenge to the small party of which I have the honour to be a member in which he desires us to accuse the Chancellor of the Exchequer of unscrupulous audacity. May I remind the hon. Member that we do not depend, like some of his colleagues, upon that sort of language for our reputation? We are able to substantiate our position in this House by argument, not by rowdyism. I have the highest possible respect for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although I do not happen to be a member of his party. At all times I enjoy listening to his dialectic skill, and I hope it will be many a long year before this House is deprived of his presence. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has surely done the Chancellor a great injustice in the speech he delivered earlier this afternoon, when he advised hon. Members to obtain expert advice on the meaning of the language of this Bill. I have always regarded the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a past-master of language, and surely it is not to his credit that we should be advised in this House to get expert advice in order to understand the language of the right hon. Gentleman.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, however, is perfectly correct. I have puzzled over the taxation Clauses of this Finance Bill, and I should want not one but a hundred experts to explain what they mean. I confess that I am completely bewildered. It is impossible to understand these Clauses, and, apparently, it is becoming the practice of the Conservative Government to introduce into this House Bills which nobody can understand. We have just had the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill, and I do not think any lawyer in this House yet understands what Clause 1 of that Bill means. We are confronted with the same difficulty in considering the present Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has a great imagination, and in connection with some of the provisions of this Bill he has let his imagination attain the highest possible flights, I presume for the purpose of finding a way to balance a very difficult financial situation. He has done one ill-service to the community in connection with the Road Fund—I am sure he will pardon my saying so. Probably he did not mean to do it, but

  1425
  he has been led by a difficult situation to commit what is, in my humble opinion, a grave injustice upon the unemployed in this country. I will try to prove what I am saying, and I hope I shall be able to prove it to his satisfaction. I say that in connection with the Road Fund he has put out of employment no less than 80,000 men, at a time when every thoughtful citizen is trying to put forward suggestions in order to get a more profitable return for the money which is being paid out in the dole.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, by the raid on the Road Fund, has added to the unemployed list in this country no less than 80,000 men per annum. This means the diversion to the Exchequer of no less a sum than £25,000,000 in two years. Last year £7,000,000 was taken out of the Road Fund reserve and £3,500,000 out of Revenue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also took a sum of £800,000 per annum for 15 years to repay the Exchequer in connection with loans to local authorities. This year the Chancellor again takes one-third of the taxation coming in from pleasure vehicles, £800,000, and £12,000,000 from reserve. That gives you an approximate amount of £25,000,000. I have it on good authority that on every sum expended on the roads 50 per cent. of it goes in the payment of labour on the job. A large percentage also goes in materials, and, therefore, it may be said that out of £25,000,000 it amounts to a direct loss in wages of not less than £3,000,000. This, at an average of 10s. a day per man, means 26,000,000 man days, or employment for 80,000 men for a whole year. Therefore, it is not unfair of me to accuse the Chancellor of the Exchequer of having placed this vast number of 80,000 men on the unemployment list.
  Mr. CHURCHILL Mr. CHURCHILL indicated dissent.
  Sir R. THOMAS: I shall be glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman explain away these facts.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: If the £12,000,000 had had to be found from some other source it would equally have been withdrawn from the fund from which the wages of labour have to be found.
  6.0 p.m.
  Sir R. THOMAS: I am afraid I cannot quite follow the right hon. Gentleman. That is a way of putting it which I
  1426
  really do not understand. I rather expected the right hon. Gentleman to say that local authorities had no schemes which could employ such a large number of men. I expected him to put forward an excuse of that kind, and to say, "It is all very well to accuse me of putting 80,000 men out of work, but where can you employ 80,000 men?" That is the reply I am anticipating he will make later on in the Debate, although he has not said it yet. The best reply to a statement of that kind, whether from the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else, is this. It is a resolution—I do not know whether it has yet come to the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge as it was only passed yesterday—of the standing joint committee of the Mechanical Road Transport Association. It sat in London yesterday under the chairmanship of Mr. Shrapnell Smith, and after a long discussion the following resolution was unanimously passed:
  "(1) That having regard to the unsatisfied needs of local authorities and to delay in dealing with agreed schemes of road improvement the Committee takes the strongest exception to the appropriation of £12,000,000 from moneys avowedly raised for the purpose of road improvement and maintenance.
  (2) That the Committee seek assurances for the future as to the constitution and application of the Road Fund, and join in the organisation of the 2,500,000 owners, owner-drivers and drivers of road motors, and other persons interested in the roads; in order to secure satisfactory assurances."
  The right hon. Gentleman surely cannot say that there are not sufficient requests from local authorities for schemes. In the county of Anglesey, which is not a very big county but has many roads, including an old Roman road, a deputation was appointed recently to wait upon the Road Board and ask for funds for the carrying out of a road scheme. The members of the Road Board raised their hands in dismay, and said they were not allowed by the Treasury to sanction any scheme. That was the reply received by a deputation from my own constituency. There is a concrete case. I make the statement here, and the right hon. Gentleman can prove it or disprove it. Am I not entitled to say that schemes submitted by local authorities for badly needed road improvements all over the country have been not merely damped

  1427
  down or suppressed, or rejected, but hamstrung?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I do not mind what epithet the hon. Baronet uses, but every desirable scheme cannot be carried out at once, and no scheme can be carried out which will bring the expenditure of the Road Fund beyond the very large and increasing limits provided.
  Sir R. THOMAS: The right hon. Gentleman must be fair. He has a sense of fairness, and I put it to him in all sincerity that these schemes are being held up, and that all initiative and all desire and ambition on the part of the local authorities are being paralysed in consequence. The Treasury is putting the screw on the Ministry of Transport to such an extent that no scheme can be sanctioned.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I spend my life in endeavouring to resist desirable schemes not only in regard to transport but many other matters.
  Sir R. THOMAS: That was because the right hon. Gentleman had not the money in those cases, but in this case he has the money for this specific purpose. We complain that the right hon. Gentleman has received the money for a specific purpose, but is devoting it to another purpose. That is quite different from any other problem which the right hon. Gentleman has had to face. It seems to me that in the action of the Treasury one can trace the hidden hand of the big railway interests. Make no mistake about it. There are interests behind a scheme of this sort, and it is something which has come into existence quite lately, because I think nobody was more bitter in denunciation of raiding this Fund than the Financial Secretary to the Treasury last year. I think he was the hon. Member who called it larceny. [HON. MEMBERS "No!"] I am informed that it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wells (Sir R. Sanders). However, one Member opposite is as good as another. It was said by a responsible Gentleman opposite last year that this was robbery and larceny. He called it all the names that he could think of. Now the right hon. Gentleman comes forward and says that he has had to deal with problems like this before and has had to discourage spending
  1428
  Departments from asking for money to carry on necessary works. He cannot deny that this sum of money was meant to maintain the high roads of this country in good order. He cannot deny that those roads are not in good order, and he ought not to use this money for any purpose other than that for which it was specifically voted. As I say, there is the hidden hand of the great railway interests behind this matter, and I think the use of the Road Fund has been artificially held up during the past year by the Ministry of Transport under Treasury instructions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech said that the £12,000,000 reserve of the Road Fund would be transferred to the general funds of the State and that the Exchequer would, in return, assume responsibility for financing expenditure on roads in the regular manner during the year. The hon. and gallant Member for Chatham (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) in the course of the ensuing Debate said:
  "We have still the Road Fund, thank God, intact."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1927; col. 422, Vol. 205.]
  Here we have two contradictory statements. Is it the Chancellor's intention to retain the Road Fund intact? Will it be kept separate, or will it exist only on paper?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not dealing with the Road Fund at all. I am only dealing with the Road Fund Reserve.
  Sir R. THOMAS: The right hon. Gentleman is taking away the money all right, and there is widespread concern that, with its disappearance, a very large part of local taxes may be regularly diverted to the general Exchequer. A pledge was given to the country by the Chancellor last year. Will he renew that pledge to-day?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: What was it?
  Sir R. THOMAS: I have just stated it. It was to maintain this Fund intact. Will he renew it; or is this Fund to be kept only on paper and for any future schemes of road improvement are we to be compelled to submit to extra taxation? That will be the case if this money is only to be shown, on paper. What the country is anxious to know is, will the Fund be kept in existence for road improvement so that extra taxes will not be required for such purposes?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Nothing in the present Bill alters the independent status of the Road Fund. All that is happening is that the surplus of the Road Fund, this reserve of £12,000,000, is being transferred to the Exchequer, in return for which the Exchequer is undertaking to stand behind the Fund in financing road expenditure during the year. That is all that is happening. I shall not quarrel with the hon. Baronet on the question of a pledge; but, as far as the future is concerned, I do not know of any proposal to destroy the separate character of the Road Fund, or to terminate the practice by which particular taxes have been allocated for road purposes. Obviously, the growing size of that Fund must from time to time have some relation to the general problems of national taxation and finance. It may well be that in the future some method by which the Road Fund can be made subject to the scrutiny of the House in the ordinary way may be introduced. But I am certainly not going to alter the character of the Road Fund now, and I have never heard of any proposal to alter it.
  Sir R. THOMAS: That being the case, is the money going to be applied to discharge existing liabilities, and is it the case that no new schemes can be introduced without fresh taxation?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I made it perfectly clear that existing commitments will be discharged and that in every year of the life of the present Parliament there will be a larger aggregate sum available than there is in the present year, and the present year already shows the largest sum ever made available.
  Sir R. THOMAS: If the right hon. Gentleman means by that that he is going to keep in existence a fund derived from the motor taxpayer not merely on paper but in fact, for the purpose of road improvements, it will go a long way to satisfy the country, but the feeling is that this money has been transferred permanently to the Exchequer, and that any improvement in the future will involve the imposition of extra taxation. My point is that local authorities throughout the country cannot afford extra taxation.
  Mr. E. C. GRENFELL: This document which we have before us to-day provides for the simplification of the Income Tax,
  1430
  and I am much struck by the difficulties which appear in connection with it. A very short Bill, which was introduced earlier in the month, has given the lawyers a great deal of trouble already, and I only hope that in connection with this long Bill we shall find it plain sailing. I will not spend too much of the time of the House on the question of the control of one-man companies, which is dealt with in the Bill, because that has already given considerable difficulty. I will not spend much time either in asking how much will be saved by Clause 31 on cum dividend sales. From inquiries I have made in the City it seems to be the general opinion that there was nothing much for the Government in this Clause and that it would give a great deal of trouble. I myself believe it will give trouble, but provided that the Government can show a really large recovery, I think it will be worth while. What I wish specially to refer to is Part IV of the Bill, and the question of the Sinking Fund. That is the whole crux of the Budget. This time last year when we were considering the Finance Bill, the country was in sore trouble, and I could hardly believe then that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would get through the year with as few difficulties in finance as he has actually experienced. It seemed impossible at that time that we could have come through without a fall in exchange, or that the £ sterling could have faced the dollar, when our chief and most important export was cut off and we were compelled to replace it by purchasing coal at huge prices from abroad.
  Yet only a fortnight ago the Chancellor was able to tell the House that not only had we as much or more gold than we ever had before, but that he had never availed of the credits—he called them cushion credits—which he had established in America. He was criticised for what he had paid for this credit. If he paid a little for the fire insurance, I do not understand the feeling of a man who comes and wants his money back because the house has not been burned down. I congratulate the Chancellor on that, and I congratulate him also on the fact that he has resisted all pressure in the past year to continue one of the worst Acts of the last few years. The Chancellor himself and the Treasury have been cheated of £70,000,000 of valuable money

  1431
  which he should have had available for strengthening his position in refunding the debt. The £70,000,000 trade facilities has really been taken from the Chancellor when he should have had those facilities for refunding the short debt, which has been steadily growing. I only hope that in spite of suggestions from the Labour party to-day that he had a kind heart, which I hope he has not, he will strenuously resist several other things which may be pressed upon him.
  I have in my hand what appears to be a moneylender's letter, headed: "Government Guarantee Credits." It might be a milliner's circular from its beautiful appearance, but when you come to read it, it appears to be nothing more than a moneylender's circular, which offers credit, credit insurance, advances, Government guarantee, "guarantees up to 100 per cent.," "arrangements to suit any case"—that sounds rather a cheap offer—guarantees for long credits, long credits extending to five years.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Where does this come from?
  Mr. GRENFELL: "Government Guarantee Credits," issued by the Department of Overseas Trade. I got it with my morning mail, with moneylending letters and betting circulars. I can only hope that at the very first opportunity the Chancellor will manage to stop that sort of brochure. The right hon. Gentleman has debt maturing in the next few years amounting to £177,000,000 this year and to £446,000,000 next year. He wants all his resources, and I congratulate him on having taken the Road Fund, or raided it, or whatever particular form of taking he has done. It is essential for him to think of that Sinking Fund, and as the hon. Member opposite, a member of the Colwyn Committee, has emphasised, this country is in grave danger unless the Chancellor can fortify his £65,000,000 this year, by £75,000,000 next year, and gradually increase it up to £100,000,000. I know that that is an unpopular thing to do. I know that on this side of the House it is often said: "Why is it necessary to pay off the home debt?" I can tell hon. Members why. We are flattering ourselves to-day that the Chancellor has established a £50,000,000 or a £65,000,000 Sinking Fund.
  1432
  My belief is that the uninstructed public believe that he can use that for any purpose, that he can buy with it this loan or that loan, the loan that is cheapest to buy, the loan that is most expensive to continue to pay interest on, but what do we find? We find that practically, if money were dear to-day, or if there was the slightest ripple on the Continent, and our tax-free War Loans were below par, and our 5 per cent. War Loans were at 95, we have not only pawned £65,000,000, but we have actually pawned or pledged £92,000,000. I admit that fortunately the War Loan is not at 95, but we should be prepared for every emergency. The Treasury has some 600 Treasury Bills out, and those Bills are very expensive at times. To-day, I am glad to say, they are cheap, but every 1 per cent. on those Treasury Bills amounts to £6,000,000, and the cost of those to-day is some £22,000,000 per annum. Though I would not ask the Chancellor to reduce those Bills rapidly, it should always be before our eyes that we should reduce those Bills so that there will be more demand for them than there is supply. As the hon. Member of the Colwyn Committee knows, a great many of those Treasury Bills are held by foreigners, and it is always possible that in a difficult time—in fact, it is the reason for which those Bills are held abroad—payment may suddenly be demanded for them. I do not wish that those Bills should be paid off yet. I think there are other more important things to be dealt with.
  I feel sure, even though it might involve extra taxation, that it is important to fortify the Chancellor in making his free Sinking Fund strong, so that he may look forward with some hope, if not to being able to pay off the floating debt, yet to converting the short loans debt about to mature, so that whereas to-day he is completely in the hands of the lenders, the time may come when he will be able to call the tune and not be completely at the mercy of the lenders. I am not abusing the lenders, who are rightly in a strong position to-day. If we look back to the time of the Goschen conversion, then was the time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to read the Riot Act to the holder of Consols. The ideal to which we must look forward is the issue of a loan with as small a discount below par as possible.

  1433
  We should also look forward to the time when we should not have to hypothecate to any loan any special sinking fund, and we also would wish that the loan we issued would be, as are Consols, a loan redeemable only at the will of the Government, not at the will of the holder. That is the position in which we were before the War, or at any rate in which our debt was before the War. We have had to give away all these privileges, but we shall not be able to get our debt on a sound basis until that Sinking Fund is available, so that at least a part of it can be used for the Chancellor to pick his bird out of the covey and not take the one that that Sinking Fund is bound to.
  At the same time, in order to do that, it is essential that the Chancellor should show none of that human kindness which the Labour party suggested was an attribute of his. I hope he will show stiffness, not only to Members on the other side, but especially to his own colleagues. I can think of only one ideal Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was not known, I think, to anyone I see here to-day. I am thinking of "Black Michael." Black Michael was never known to smile in the Treasury, in the Cabinet, or in this House when finance was in question. This accusation of the hidden hand that we have heard from the party opposite, made the Chancellor smile. That does not matter. I do not mind that smile, but if he yields and shows any smile when accused of good humour, he is not the man I take him for, and not the man we require. I see that that has made him smile.
  There is only one thing I would like to say on another topic, and that is a further reference to the economy which is exercising the whole country. If' this Sinking Fund will make for large economy in the National Debt service, there may be savings in other directions. At the same time, the various proposals for economy, such as that suggesting a small body of Cabinet Ministers who should inquire into Government Departments, are, I think, perfectly useless. I believe myself that the Civil Service is as efficient as ever, and that it is entitled to our general respect. During the War, when certain business men and business experts were serving in public offices, they gradually introduced a feeling of
  1434
  confidence and respect between the Civil Service and the commercial element. They contributed to broaden the mind of the expert who came in, and perhaps improve the efficiency of the product of the brains of the Civil Service. I think that might be done again now. Any form of introduction of mechanical devices into Government offices, or in any office, has to be done not only with the greatest tact and care, but very slowly, and in commercial offices in which that has been done, I know the difficulties that have occurred with the old employés. I also know the numbers of mistakes that have been made by the experts who came into old offices and introduced methods that were not suitable.
  I believe that a small committee of experts, two or three of whom, I think, might be chosen from this House, who would have knowledge of where to find people in every country skilled in these matters, might do good if they acted slowly. It would be an expensive experiment. This year in the Estimates was a sum of £30,000 spent in introducing various mechanical devices into public offices. I should like to know from the Chancellor whether as yet the new methods introduced have given any real saving. It is a long time before the savings show themselves, and the fact that the Chancellor is considerably reducing the entrants into the Civil Service is, to my mind, going to create just about that gap which could be filled by these new changes which might be made.
  I was very much struck by a speech in this House three weeks ago by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Sir W. Alexander), who, I think, has had as much experience in Government offices as any other outsider. I can well believe that the hon. and gallant Member and one or two men here who are connected with other large department stores, and people connected with chain stores, and those forms of business, might be of assistance to the Civil Service. I quite admit they would find they were teaching in the Civil Service some men who were much their superior in many things. I have taken up too much of the time of the House, but I would like to say that I think that is the line on which an economy campaign might be started.
  Mr. RADFORD: I appreciate the importance of this Debate, and the limited time available for those Members who wish to take part in it, and so I will endeavour to be very brief and will devote myself to one particular matter in the Finance Bill—the provisions, beginning with Clause 29, relative to the avoidance of Super-tax. Although there are contentious matters in the Bill, I think this is one part of the Bill which will meet with the approval of every Member of the House. We are all fond of fair play, and believe in the broadest backs bearing the heaviest burdens, and in equally broad backs bearing equally heavy burdens; but since Super-tax was first imposed some 18 years ago there is no gainsaying the fact that equally broad backs have not borne equally heavy burdens. From the time when Super-tax was first imposed, those persons who have either owned individually or have been partners in businesses have had to bear Super-tax on the whole of their real incomes, whereas those persons who happen to own the shares of a company which in turn owns the business frequently escape—and perfectly innocently—Super-tax on the greater part of their incomes.
  I will give the House a short example. Take two men, equally wealthy, owning parallel businesses, each man having a private income of £5,000 a year from investments, and each of them, in addition, owning a business making £20,000 a year. A owns his business as a private firm, B owns it by means of a limited liability company of which he is the sole proprietor. For the purposes of Super-tax A was assessed on his £5,000 investment income and on his £20,000 income from his private business—a total income of £25,000. B, if he drew out none of the profits of the business which he owned as a limited liability company, was liable to return only £5,000 on his Super-tax form as his income. The Revenue authorities gradually became aware of the serious losses incurred, and then they passed Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922, which is referred to in this Clause. I said that I am sure hon. Members would be in agreement as to the desirabltiy of these provisions in this Bill, providing always that their meaning was clear and unambiguous, and Clause 29 is only in-
  1436
  telligible if it is read in conjunction with the Section of the Act of 1922 therein referred to.
  I hope the House will acquit me of any desire to lecture them, but having the Act of 1922 before me, and having traced this reference, I would venture to explain to the House what appears to be inexplicable and unintelligible at the beginning of Clause 29, namely, the reference to a liability for assessment as available profits of sums which have been applied in or towards the payment for the business or in the redemption of loans and for similar purposes. It seems very extraordinary that there should be those references, that those sums were to be calculated as available profits for the purpose of Super-tax assessment. When Section 21 of the Act of 1922 was passed, it provided, in the case of certain companies to which that Section applied, that in the event of their failing to distribute a reasonable proportion of their profits in such manner as to make the recipients thereof liable to Super-tax, the Inland Revenue authorities should have the right to calculate the profits of the company as though they had been actually distributed; and then these words occur:
  "Provided that, in determining whether any company has or has not distributed a reasonable part of its income as aforesaid, the Commissioners shall have regard not only to the current requirements of the company's business but also to such other requirements as may be necessary or advisable for the maintenance and development of that business."
  What the new Clause does is to state specifically that the owners of such companies shall not be entitled to plead that they retained their profits within the company's coffers for certain specific purposes which are mentioned in the Clause which will not be purposes for which such a claim can hold good.
  I would like to give an example of how the provisions of the 1922 Act were being abused, which will show how necessary are the provisions in Clause 29 of the present Bill. I, myself, saw a case where an individual with investments approximating to £1,000,000 had sold those investments to a limited company of which he was to be proprietor, and he was to be paid in 50 half-yearly instalments of £20,000 each, without interest. It looked an extraordinary transaction.

  1437
  This man with £1,000,000 worth of investments went to the expense of forming a limited company and transferring to it the whole of those investments, incurring considerable expense in so doing; and the purchase price was to be £1,000,000, made by half-yearly payments, spread over 25 years without interest. When this individual owned the £1,000,000 of investments himself they were bringing in approximately £50,000 a year. Out of that £50,000 he had to pay Income Tax at 4s. in the £, amounting to £10,000, and, in addition, Super-tax to the extent of something like £13,000. That makes a total of £23,000, and left him with a net income of £27,000. Having formed this limited company and transferred to it the investments, and having made an agreement with it that he was to be paid for the investments by 50 half-yearly payments without interest—which appears to be a most generous bargain—the investment company, like the late owner, became liable to pay £10,000 a year in Income Tax; but the liability of the company to taxation ceased there. Being a limited company, it was not liable to Super-tax, and it was left with £40,000 a year in its hand. This had all been calculated in advance by the old owner, or his professional advisers, and the £40,000 was then handed to the old owner in half-yearly instalments of £20,000 each. These payments over a period of 25 years paid for the purchase of the investments. In other words, the old owner received the whole of the 25 years' income from those investments free of Super-tax-he received it in the form of capital instead of income.
  In the 1922 Act an effort was made to deal with such a case, but, unfortunately, the Section, although willing in spirit was weak in the flesh, and it was so hedged about with provisos and Sub-sections as to be practically inoperative; at any rate it was inoperative against any determined man who was anxious to avoid its provisions and was only effectual against such persons as happened accidentally to come within its provisions. One of those provisions, which I have read to the House, says that the Commissioners had to take into account the current requirements of the company in deciding whether or not the company
  1438
  had failed to distribute the available profits by way of dividend. The reply of the directors in the case I have quoted would be, "We have been absolutely debarred from declaring any dividends. We are under an agreement with Mr. A.B. to pay him £20,000 each half year for a period of 25 years, and therefore we are compelled to keep the whole of this £40,000 income in our hands to pay the purchase price of our investments." That is an instance of how they were enabled to escape from the provisions of the Act of 1922, and in this new Clause it is specifically provided that any sum expended or applied or intended to be so expended or applied out of the income of the company, whether in pursuance of any obligation binding on the company or not, in or towards payment for the business, undertaking or property acquired by the company, or in redemption or repayment of any share or loan capital or debt, or in meeting any obligations of the company in respect of the acquisition of the business, undertaking or property, shall not be taken into account in calculating whether the company's profits have been applied to the current purposes of the company.
  I would like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his advisers on the very thorough manner in which these new Clauses have been drafted. No doubt on the Committee stage of the Bill they may be the subject of some questions, and I may have the opportunity of dealing with them in greater detail. I have already heard it said that they do not take into account the necessity for a company husbanding its resources for the purposes of development, but, if that is true, it is equally true of a business owned by a private individual in the old days. It is no crime under our Constitution for a man to own his business as a private individual and not as a limited company, and any development required had to be carried out by him after payment of Income Tax and Super-tax. The only fault I find with this new Clause is that to come within its provisions a company has to be under the control of not more than five persons. For my own part I wish the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-

  1439
  chequer had altered the wording on page 16 of the Bill to say:
  "This Section shall apply to any company within the meaning of the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908."
  with the words
  "which is under the control of not more than five persons"
  omitted. I do not see why we should once again leave even the smallest loophole for persons who are anxious to avoid their just obligations, or give them an opportunity to put their heads together and succeed, possibly by the amalgamation of two companies, in having them under the control of six persons. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had made a clean sweep of the whole thing. I am also glad to see that in Clause 32 he has provided that a taxpayer who receives more than a year's income in any particular year shall have relief in respect of Super-tax thereon. That is only just. While I am dealing with Super-tax I would like to take this opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the reference he was good enough to make in his Budget speech to the fact that my representations on this subject had had some little influence on the drafting of this new Clause.
  There is one other point on which I would like to say a word, and that is about the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of the yield of Income Tax for the current year. In his Budget speech last month he said:
  "The melancholy result of the trade of 1926, without any mitigating average of three years, forms the foundation of the Estimates of 1927, and inflicts upon our reasonable expectations of a year ago a loss which will amount to 218,000,000."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1927; col. 60, Vol. 205.]
  The right hon. Gentleman has estimated that we shall receive £232,000,000 in Income Tax as against actual receipts of £234,000,000 in the previous year, which in turn was against an estimate for the said year of £254,000,000. In the past, or, at any rate, up to last year, Chancellors of the Exchequer, in calculating right at the beginning what they expected the yield of the Income Tax would be, always had the benefit of the three years' average, which enabled the amount for two of the years, and very often the third year also, to be known before making their Budget speeches.
  1440
  Now we have come to the one year basis, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to make a statement as to what he estimated would be the yield of Income Tax for 1927–28 based, in the case of trading concerns, in most cases on their actual profits prior to the 5th April, 1927.
  The right hon. Gentleman made his speech on the 11th April, 1927, and it is obvious that he and his expert advisers could not possibly have the data available to give them such an approximately accurate figure as they had in previous years. I sincerely trust that the right hon. Gentleman's estimate will be reached and exceeded, and yet, judging by my own experience, and the reports in the Press, I find it hard to believe that the actual results of the year ending somewhere round about September or December, 1926, or March, 1927, which includes in almost every case the whole of the general strike and the coal stoppage, will not show that the right hon. Gentleman's estimate was an unduly optimistic one. I sincerely hope I am wrong, and yet I am bound to voice that view. In conclusion, I particularly welcome the provisions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put into this Bill, in regard to the Super-tax, because they are going to remedy the greater part of an injustice and an inequality which has undoubtedly existed since the Super-tax was first imposed.
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I feel that a debt of gratitude is due to the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. Radford) for the way in which he has continually pressed this matter upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury, and if in fact the new Clauses in this Bill succeed in dealing the blow at these practices which have been growing up until now, I believe everyone in this House will be very glad for what has taken place. I was particularly glad to hear the speech of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Grenfell), and to hear him express with all the authority which belongs to him his view with regard to the Sinking Fund. I am quite sure that he has not merely got to keep the Chancellor of the Exchequer up to the mark in this matter, but he has to deal pretty drastically with hon. Members sitting close to him, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), who did not hear

  1441
  his speech and other hon. Members sitting around him who took an entirely different view from what he has taken when the Budget was under discussion. I thoroughly approve of what he said in regard to the Sinking Fund, and I hope I shall carry him with me in two extensions I am going to suggest in regard to the points he has made.
  My first point relates to the present situation in China. The Budget Estimates take no account whatever of the expense that will be incurred this year in China, and as it seems extremely likely, that the expenditure will be upon a considerable scale, even the £65,000,000 which has been put to the Sinking Fund is likely to be considerably reduced before the financial year comes to an end. The other point I wish to mention is in regard to the National Savings Certificates. We have heard it put clearly before us that while in the forthcoming year only some £9,000,000 of interest is being allowed, the actual liability which will be incurred on behalf of those Savings Certificates will be in the neighbourhood of £24,000,000. Therefore, there is there an item of £15,000,000 of a negative sinking fund which is a legitimate deduction from the Sinking Fund of £65,000,000 which the Budget proposed. I hope the hon. Member for the City of London will agree with me when I say that point is quite as important as other parts of the short term debt, and that there is, first of all, a risk that a large amount of that debt might require to be paid. Secondly, the method of book-keeping is a matter of doubtful accuracy in this respect.
  Mr. E. C. GRENFELL: I allowed £10,000,000 for that very purpose.
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I am glad to have the hon. Member's Support. With regard to the Finance Bill as a whole, when I read the provisions of this Bill, I cannot help feeling like I do when I see the unhappy sight one sometimes see in the streets of our large cities. A woe-begone figure unwilling or unable to earn an ordinary livelihood is picking up unconsidered trifles from dustbins in the street. It seems to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very comparable with that, for, instead of making an honest effort to make both ends meet, and raising taxes in a straightforward way, he has found all sorts of little odd bits and put them together in the hope
  1442
  that he will get away with the idea that he has constructed a sound Budget. I do not think that is the case. It seems to me that this Budget is one of the series in which the whole financial system of this country has been complexified—I am not referring to the Clauses about the Income Tax, because I have said already that in so far as they stop up loopholes they are sound.
  If we go back for a number of years we shall find that our finances were framed on broad lines. We had direct and indirect taxation, but it was not pettifogging taxation and the indirect taxation taxed things in bulk and did not involve harassing Customs regulations. Every Budget which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has introduced has complexified the Customs regulations of this country, with the result that we are now burdened with a multitude of small taxes. A constituent of mine has written to me describing travellers coming back from France. They had got merely handbags and hat boxes and all the things they had they bought in England before they went away, and they brought them back again. These travellers were held up so long getting those goods through the Customs that they missed their trains and were put to very great inconvenience. The revenue of the country is not benefited a single penny by these pettifogging proceedings. It is a well-known maxim that the worst tax you can have it that which is not paid, because it creates all the inconvenience without any correspondingly good results to the Exchequer. That is the case both as regards travellers and the trade coming into this country. Our trade is harassed by taxes producing only a comparatively small amount of revenue.
  One example in the present Budget of these pettifogging taxes is the new Pottery Duty. I am glad that we have the Financial Secretary to the Treasury present because when such duties as these are being discussed in detail we never have any representatives of the Treasury present. In regard to these taxes what is the defence of the President of the Board of Trade? He does not argue that the Pottery Duty is a good tax, but he says "Here is a procedure setting up a committee of three persons; this

  1443
  duty has been passed by them, and it has been accepted, and therefore we place it before the House of Commons." I feel that we ought to have during the Second Reading of this Bill, or at a later stage, a real defence by someone representing the Treasury of this new and additional pettifogging burden which is interfering with the trade and the convenience of the people of this country.
  I desire to make a reference to the change in Schedule A which I do not think has yet been referred to this afternoon. When that proposal was first put forward I was inclined to be sympathetic towards it, but after thinking it over I have come to the conclusion that it would cause a very great deal of hardship and inconvenience. While the burden of the Income Tax is such a considerable amount in the £, I am inclined to think it would have been much better to have left the system of payment by two instalments which existed before. I am going to tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer how a considerable sum could have been raised under Schedule A in quite a different way. There is a great deal of property in London at the present time which does not pay a tax under Schedule A anything like in proportion to the actual rents which are being received. Instead the tax is based upon the assessable value. It is notorious that at the last quinquennial valuation figures were taken which do not represent the actual rents received. When taken for a rating purpose there is no hardship involved, because if the assessment is in all cases based in proportion to the rent it makes very little difference if a certain sum has to be raised for London as a whole whether the properties are taken at 100 per cent., 75 per cent. or 60 per cent. of their value. But when it comes to taxing purposes, a very great difference is involved, and those who have studied this question know quite well that in a very large number of cases an amount is being collected which is far short of the amount which would and should be collected if the full rent was put down instead of the assessable value. I suggest that as a reform which mighty well be looked into and that by merely changing the method of assessment for taxing purposes a great addition to the revenue under Schedule A might be obtained.
  1444
  7.0 p.m.
  I do not know how far that applies to other cities, but it certainly applies to London. I suggest that in the fixing of the assessment for Schedule A the method of fixing it by the quinquennial valuation should be discontinued and that the collectors should have power to demand from the occupier tax upon an amount not less than the rent paid; and further that the declaration of income should require the actual amount received to be stated as well as the assessment value. I believe that as far as Schedule A is concerned, that would have been a much better method of raising revenue for the current year. It would have had the advantage of also applying to future years, and of putting our financial position in a much better state than it will be by this makeshift scheme which forms the basis of this Finance Bill.
  Mr. D. HERBERT: Before I say a word on the two Clauses with which I would like to deal, I hope that it will not be thought a piece of impertinence on my part to say how much I and other Members welcomed the speech of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. C. Grenfell). It is a speech which many of us would have liked to have made if we had had the experience to enable us to do so, and had the weight of his authority behind it. I want to direct my remarks particularly to Clauses 29 and 30 of this Bill, which deal with the extension or alteration of Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922, the so-called one-man company Clause. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had followed the wishes of my hon. Friend the Member for South Salford (Mr. Radford) and had made this apply to every company under the Companies Act, then one, at any rate, of my objections to the present form of the Clause would have been removed, because it would at least have been treating all companies equally. I imagine the Chancellor did not do so, because he felt that to put an extra tax of that kind on every company in the country would be putting a burden on industry which was not advisable at the present time. I suggest, as a fact in the case of the hon. Member for South Salford, and as a probability in the case of Members of the House generally, and of members of the Government, including the Chancellor

  1445
  and Financial Secretary, that they do not realise the effect of those Clauses in this Bill. The Financial Secretary has already explained to the House what is the working of the old Section 21 of the Act of 1922 and made a mistake in doing so. It is a Section which imposes Super-tax upon undistributed profits of certain companies. This tax is imposed not upon the shareholders as the Financial Secretary said, but upon the company. That is what the Section does, and under that. Section any company with more than 50 shareholders was not affected. It was made perfectly clear at the time when that Section was passed that it was intended to apply only to what were generally known as private companies, companies which were formed with the express intention of avoiding the tax.
  It is proposed in this year's Bill to extend that to all companies where there is a bare majority of the voting power vested in not more than five persons. I want for a moment to consider to where that leads us, and what extra companies will be brought within the operation of Section 21. Let the House remember, first, that these five persons are to be calculated in a rather unusual way. Not only for the purposes of this Section does the word "person" include a corporation, for instance a trust company holding a large number of shares, but it includes as one single person any particular shareholder whom you choose to pick out, all his ancestors, all his lineal descendants, all his brothers and sisters and their husbands and wives if they are also shareholders. I have no hesitation in saying, and any hon. Member with any experience of business in the City will agree, that there are a very large number indeed of companies whose shares are quoted on the Stock Exchange and are dealt with freely every Stock Exchange account, absolutely public companies, which will come within the Clause. I could give many examples of companies of which I know that are in that position. I do not like, as a rule, to mention a number of companies by name, but there is one company to which, as the Government are concerned, I can refer. It is a company of no mean importance, known as the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which is controlled, if not by the Government, at least by the Government and one other company
  1446
  which holds a large block of shares. The result is that that company, one of the biggest in the country, whose shares are dealt in every Stock Exchange settlement, comes within the operation of this Bill.
  There is another alteration proposed in this Bill, for it says that any sums applied in the acquisition of the business or property acquired by the company or in redemption or repayment of any debt are to be deemed as funds which ought to be distributed. Let the House understand what that means. Under the original Section, if a company does not distribute as much as the Commissioners think it ought to do, the company has to pay Super-tax, not on the amount which the Commissioners think it ought to distribute, but on the whole undistributed profits. It is admitted to be a penal Section. Take in connection with that the provisions of the Clause in this Bill. Consider the case of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company. It has an issue of debentures, I think. At any rate, I will assume so, and that the proceeds of those debentures were partly used for the acquisition of the property. The company is under an obligation to pay off a certain number each year. If it complies with that obligation and pays for those debentures out of profits, what happens? It has ipso facto and necessarily refrained from distributing profits, which the Section says it should distribute, by dealing with them in this way, and it is at once liable to Super-tax on the whole of these undistributed profits.
  I have been discussing this with representatives of the Revenue before to-day, and before my speech now. I know that hon. Members in some parts of the House may say: "Quite right, why not tax them?" Let me admit that for the sake of argument, and then let us see where we stand. Assuming that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company should be taxed on all the profits that it does not distribute, there is another company, a competitor of the Anglo-Persian, the Shell Transport and Trading Company. That, I believe, would not come within the Section. The result is that the Anglo-Persian Oil Company might have to pay anything from 1s. to 4s. in the £ on its undistributed profits, while the Shell Company would not have to pay a penny. My own view about it is that the Government never intended, and never meant, to tax

  1447
  these great public companies where there was never the slightest intention of avoiding Super-tax. If they intended to tax all these companies with Super-tax on what they had not distributed, why do they not follow the wish of my hon. Friend the Member for S. Salford and tax all the companies under the Companies Acts? Surely we have here the clearest evidence that the Government draftsman did not know what the effect of his Clause was going to be when applied to the facts of everyday commercial and business life in the City. You have either got to make it apply to all companies in the same position or none. If you are merely trying to stop an unfair evasion of tax, it is clear that you have gone a great deal too far.
  Let me come to another aspect of the case. I took a very prominent part in the Debate on what is now Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922. It was on my plea that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer withdrew the original Clause. I had many consultations with him on the subject before it went through. Some Members of the House who were here then will remember that on that occasion I pointed out a variety of loopholes, one very serious one being one that has been referred to this afternoon by the Financial Secretary, namely, that a man who wanted to evade the Section would qualify 50 crossing-sweepers with 50 shares of 1s. each, which would make no difference to anybody Another was that he would register abroad. There were various others which my hon. Friends and I did not give away in the House, at the request of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the benefit of the Revenue. I do not want to give away the many methods which there are still of evading it. What I do say is that his Clause, which is going to bring about the unfair discrimination which I have already mentioned, and hit a number of companies which it was never intended to hit, will certainly be as ineffective for the case which the Government wants to meet as the old Section was without this alteration. You are simply driving the man whose particular device you are meeting by this Clause to adopt some other method. You are even hinting to him one way of doing it, because you are providing now that it shall apply to a public company with lots
  1448
  of shareholders which happens to be controlled within particular limits. When a man comes to think of the companies that will be hit by that, he will realise that many of them issue bearer shares.
  How are the Government going to discover where the control is in cases where there are bearer shares? You may harass every registered shareholder and every director of a company and cross-examine him as to what shares he owns, but you will never, if a man wants to defeat the taxpayer, discover where the control of that company is, if the shares are in bearer form. I will not go further into the methods that might be adopted for avoiding this particular issue, but let me point out another evil in regard to this, and another difficulty which arises on the Clause. To come within the Section a company has to be within the control of not more than five persons. Is it necessary for that company to be under that control during the whole of the financial year? If it is not, of course everyone who wants to defeat it will see that for a short part of the time he is not in control. But in these big companies which will be hit, the control varies in some cases every single Stock Exchange settlement. The five biggest holders hold at one time nearly half the shares. I can picture to myself a board of directors who are obliged to watch very carefully where the control of the company is, because if one day some big shareholder acquired a few more shares, it would mean that five shareholders would own just over half, and that means that the company would have to pay a very large sum of Super-tax. The directors will watch that very carefully, and will see that they are a little way off, and that the five biggest shareholders only hold 45 per cent. But then a director may come in one day and say, "Do you see the marriage in the paper yesterday of Mr. Brown to Miss Jones?" Miss Jones holds 15 per cent. of the capital of this company and Mr. Brown another 15 per cent. of the capital. They now become one person, and their marriage has brought us under the provisions of this Section, and we shall have to pay Super-tax this year." My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer smiles. He would be smiling then and congratulating himself on the acquisition to the revenue. But it would

  1449
  be a bitter blow to him when the next bit of news came in. Just before that, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, of Ohio, had been divorced, and their holdings had become separated.
  Mr. MacLAREN: Who was the co-respondent?
  Mr. HERBERT: I do not know whether he was a shareholder or not, but he would not count as one of the family. May I be quite serious about this very important subject in my closing words. When this matter of avoidance of tax by one-man companies was under discussion in 1922, I, like most, if not all, Members of this House, approved entirely of the attempt, which has turned out to be an unsuccessful attempt, to prevent the avoidance of tax which a man in all fairness ought to pay, thus throwing the burden on other people. My objection to the original Clause in 1922 was that it would be ineffective, and would hit the wrong people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was then bound by his Financial Resolution, and he admitted in this House if that had not been the case that he would have drafted the Section in an entirely different way. I made a proposal to him then which he for that reason was unable to accept, and I make a suggestion again to the Government now that they should deal with this matter in the only way in which the sinner, as we may call him, can be effectively dealt with, while at the same time avoiding interference with the legitimate business of these great industrial undertakings. The method is to make every Super-tax payer divulge upon a form, as he divulges information in the case of his Income Tax returns at the present time, particulars of every company in which he holds or controls a substantial part of the voting power. Having got that from him, you can then get from him the accounts of the company and you can find out whether from the information you have got he is unfairly avoiding the tax, and, if he is, you can make him liable and levy the tax upon him.
  That method would be effective in many ways in which this Clause could not be. To a great extent it would be effective where it is now avoided by a man who has registered his company abroad, and it relieves the actual company, in which there are other innocent shareholders,
  1450
  absolutely from interference, and gets over all your difficulties which arise under this particular Clause where, apparently you are going to tax one company heavily while another in exactly the same position is by mere chance free of tax. I do most earnestly ask that the Government will very seriously consider this Clause and have regard, as I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer must have, to the effect it is going to have upon trade and industry and the City generally, and I ask the Government to see whether upon some such lines as I have suggested, they would not have a much more effective weapon to their hand, and one which would not harm the people my right hon. Friend has no wish to harm.
  Mr. VARLEY: I only intervene to call attention for a moment to Section 5 of the Act which perpetuates the principle of Imperial Preference. There are those on this side of the House who, while they have no fondness for tariffs in general, do recognise that while tariffs form part of the fiscal policy of this country, it is to the interest of all that we should give preference to our own kith and kin beyond the seas, because in addition to the bond of relationship, we do recognise that in these Colonies and Dependencies the labour conditions and the standard of life more closely approximate to ours than do the conditions in many of the other foreign nations. But we have always understood that Imperial Preference was based upon the idea of reciprocity. In Clause 5 there is proposed an addition to the wine duty in future to be levied upon imported wines coming into this country, and under Sub-sections (2) and (4) of Clause 5 there is perpetuated the idea of giving the Colonies a preference. No one can say that such duties as have been levied upon wines hitherto, and such increases as are now proposed, will have the effect of keeping wines out of the country. But even so, a preference is to be given to Australian wines. I should like to be able to believe that the Colonies are animated by a similar desire in such tariffs as they are imposing against home-produced goods. Until quite recently—within about 18 months—the duty upon woollen underwear imported into Australia was 35 per cent. ad valorem. Without consultation, as far as we know, with anyone in this

  1451
  country, whether the Government or otherwise, that tariff was suddenly altered to 30 per cent. ad valorem plus a per capita tax of 12s. a dozen on cotton underwear and 30s. a dozen on woollen underwear.
  In the city and county of Nottingham there are struggling industries which since the failure of the lace trade have had to turn their hand to the manufacture of hosiery. Whereas they did for some time overcome the effect of the 30 per cent. ad valorem duty, the imposition of an additional per capita duty, amounting in many cases to 100 per cent. all told, has absolutely placed them outside the Dominion market. Now we understand that there is in contemplation, especially in Australia, a proposal to extend the duty which some months ago was levied against woollen goods to hosiery. That is to be the policy of Australia. Representations which have been made by the Board of Trade and the Colonial Office have only elicited the reply that we have nothing to do with the fiscal policy of the Dominions. A letter which I have recently received from a man who has spent many years in Australia says:
  "A perusal of the propaganda in Australia discloses quite clearly that a great body of protectionist opinion in that Dominion boldly states that they require protection mainly against British manufacturers and that they have been supported and are still supported by the vast majority of the town population, and they are likely to continue to raise the duties on all goods likely to compete with them or likely to be manufactured in Australia."
  I believe that is to be their policy. They say nakedly and unashamedly that their object in levying these duties is to keep out British goods. If that is to be the policy, irrespective of the blood bond, self-preservation is still the first law of life for us, and if we cannot make them see the reasonable view, namely, that the more they buy from us the more we are likely to buy from them, then the time is almost ripe for us to force it on them by taking away from them such Imperial preference as is contemplated in this particular Bill. I do not know whether any consultation has taken place between this country and the Dominions upon this question. I do not know whether this question will figure upon the agenda of the forthcoming Imperial Conference, but
  1452
  what I do fear is that before that Imperial Conference, and before the hand of the Dominions in this matter to levy duties against British goods can be stayed, we shall have perpetuated the principle of Imperial preference, and we shall be kissing the hand of the murderer. Is it too late for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring to the notice of the Dominion Parliaments the real harm they are doing to the cause of Imperial preference and to the cause of Empire trade? It is a most ironical circumstance that in Nottingham quite recently when we had a shopping week, at the very moment when the city was being placarded with such slogans as "Empire buyers are Empire builders," certain firms in that city were in the possession of information that in addition to the impost that they had to surmount in the past, they were likely to have to face something far more severe than anything which they had hitherto known.
  I beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer seriously to consider how far we can continue with this policy of Imperial preference to the Dominions if this is the treatment we are likely to receive. In my own town of Mansfield, there are at least two factories making a very high grade of hosiery, which, being high grade, can find no possible market in Europe or anywhere in the Eastern countries, and the only outlet for which, as to 80 per cent. of the production, has been America and the Colonies. If this further impost which has been levied upon woollen underwear is to be placed upon hosiery, those manufacturers will have no alternative but to go out of business almost entirely, or close down one-half of their manufacturing resources. It seems that we have no right through the Colonial Office or the Board of Trade to interfere in the fiscal policy of the Dominions, but we should retain the exclusive right to determine our own, and, if we see that the pursuance of this policy is greatly to our detriment, I venture to submit that we have no recourse except to withdraw such Imperial preference as we have given.
  Lieut.-Colonel V. HENDERSON: The hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. Grenfell), in the very excellent speech that he made earlier this afternoon, made some reference during the latter part of it to the question of economy, and I also would like to de-

  1453
  vote a few moments to that question. So long as Budgets are as big as they are at the present time, and taxation is as heavy as that imposed in the Finance Bill which is now before us, it is quite natural that people should demand economy on the part of the Government, and it is also quite natural that there should be a certain amount of criticism of the work of the Estimates Committee of this House, of which I have the honour to be Chairman. I would like to try to point out some of the difficulties with which anyone who is striving after economy is faced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, devoted a certain amount of time to trying to explain how expenditure was divided up. For instance, he, roughly speaking—I am not quoting from his speech, but am speaking from memory—tried to point out that the National Debt and the service of the National Debt absorbs something like one-half to one-third of our expenditure, that the services of defence absorb something like one-seventh to one-eighth, that the expense of the Revenue Departments and their salaries absorbs something like one-ninth, while the rest of the civil expenditure, including Ireland and contributions to local authorities, amounts to something between one-third and one-fourth.
  One of the first things that strikes anyone in examining the expenditure of the country is that the bulk of our expenditure is either in the service of the Debt or in the service of defence, or is the result of legislation passed in this House. It is quite right to say that the Estimates Committee are unable to deal with questions of policy. If we were able to deal with questions of policy, we should be taking on ourselves a power which ought to be reserved to the Government of the day, and, to a larger extent, reserved to this House. But there is another point to be observed with regard to expenditure which is due to legislation, and that is that a very large proportion of it is still due either to the War, like war pensions, or to legislation passed by the Coalition Government, which came into office immediately after the War. It has often been stated that the War resulted in people putting a lower valuation on life than was the case before, and I think that that is quite true; but it is equally true that the War
  1454
  resulted in our putting a lower valuation on money than was the case before the War, and there is no doubt, if you examine the amounts that we are spending now as the result of housing legislation and of various legislation which was passed by the Coalition Government, that we did not appreciate the value of money or the enormous amounts we were spending in the years 1918, 1919 and 1920. The fact that we had to appoint the Geddes Committee was in itself a sufficient proof of that.
  The public at large seem to be under certain definite misapprehensions with regard to our expenditure. One of the most common misapprehensions is that we are spending many millions every year in what is known, quite wrongly, as the dole. The vast bulk of our expenditure on unemployment insurance is not paid by the State at all, but is paid either by the employer or by the employé; and what is still less known is that the whole expenditure of the Ministry of Labour on rebuilding Employment Exchanges is financed, not by the Exchequer, but out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Therefore, it is entirely wrong and very unfair to imply that we are spending enormous amounts every year in giving away money to people who, as many people say, will not work, which also in many cases is equally untrue. The actual expenditure of the State on unemployment insurance is, I think am right in saying, £12,500,000 a year, and not £50,000,000, £60,000,000, or £80,000,009, as many people suggest. In the same way, the expenditure of this country on widows' pensions and health insurance is, relatively speaking, comparatively small so far as the State is concerned, the vast bulk of that expenditure being the result of contributions; while in this case also, as in the case of the Ministry of Labour, the administrative cost is borne by the funds themselves, and not by the State. Therefore, the big increase in the staff of the Ministry of Health which has taken place this year, and the size of the staff of the Ministry of Labour, which to some extent depends on the state of employment, are not in themselves fields for economy, because actually they do not directly cost the taxpayer anything at all, and they are a necessary part of schemes which have been sanctioned by this House.

  1455
  When we come to the question of staffs, we come to the question of the size of the Civil Service, and one of the most common criticisms of extravagance made against the Government of the day and against this House is that we here do not pay sufficient attention to the large size of the Civil Service, and do not take sufficient trouble to try to see that reductions are made. It is quite true that the Civil Service is very much larger than it was before the War, and it is equally true that much of that increase is due to legislation such as I have mentioned, like health insurance, unemployment insurance, and widows' and orphans' pensions; but a great deal of it is also due to facts which are not immediately apparent. You will get a case of some of these smaller Departments, like, for instance, the Public Works Loans Department, which, although its staff has increased, is actually, as compared with the size of the staff, doing far more work than it was before the War with a smaller staff; that is to say, the staff, though much larger, is, relatively speaking, doing a very much larger volume of work, and it is quite unfair, therefore, to take some of these smaller Departments, as people do, and say that, because their staff is bigger, therefore, they must be extravagant. In many cases, if you take the volume of work they are doing, they are actually being more economical in staff than they were before the War. You also get other criticisms. One is that what people choose to call the Whitehall staffs—the headquarters of Government Departments—are costing an enormous amount of money. It is quite true to say that the total cost of the Civil Service of this country is a very large figure, but the bulk of it—more than half of it—is accounted for by the Revenue Departments, which themselves earn far more than they cost. If you take only what are known as the Whitehall staffs—the headquarter staffs—their cost is somewhere in the neighbourhood of about £11,000,000, and not £30,000,000, £40,000,000 or £50,000,000, as many people suggest.
  It has been said that the Estimates Committee does not do its work properly because it does not produce sensational results. It is not the business of the Estimates Committee, or of the Public
  1456
  Accounts Committee, to produce sensational results. If they were able to produce sensational Reports once or twice in a Session, then there would be something radically wrong, not only with the Department of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but also with the whole of the Civil Service. The vast bulk of the work of both these Committees must be to produce negative results, and, if they can produce satisfactory negative results, then they are doing the work which they were primarily appointed to do, that is to say, to ensure to this House that not only is money spent in the way in which this House wishes it to be spent, and for which it voted the money, but also that, from an administrative point of view, there is no serious or gross extravagance.
  There are, however, one or two directions in which I think it may be possible for the Estimates Committee still to help the Government. Last year they put forward certain suggestions in regard to re-classification of the Estimates, and those suggestions were carried out by the Government and have been adopted in this year's Estimates. One of the most difficult questions which always faces any Committee that is endeavouring to examine the question of staffs is the fact that the Estimates of different Departments are drawn up in different ways, and it is extremely difficult to compare the size of a particular branch of one Department with the corresponding branch in another Department, because the Estimates are not drawn up in such a way that they can be compared. That is a question which receives, and will be receiving, the attention of the Committee, and, if it would be possible to make a suggestion for what one might describe as a model Estimate, there is not the slightest doubt that it would help very much in making comparisons which might lead to economy.
  I also think—I am speaking purely from my own personal point of view—that it might be helpful if we were able to tighten up the procedure with regard to Financial Resolutions. I am convinced that a great deal of money is spent without our realising why we voted it or without our realising that the legislation we had passed would entail the spending of it. If our procedure with

  1457
  regard to Financial Resolutions—which has been altered certainly within the time during which I have been in this House, as you, Mr. Speaker, will remember—could be tightened up still more, I believe we might help ourselves by doing so. There is a third suggestion that I would like to make, and that is with regard to the Financial Secretary's Annual Statement. The Financial Secretary issues a somewhat voluminous statement on the Budget at the beginning of April every year. It is extraordinarily interesting, but it is also extraordinarily lengthy and detailed, and, with the enormous and increasing amount of work that is placed on Members of this House every year, it is very difficult for the average Member to wade through that statement and remember it, or pick out from it points of interest. I would like to suggest to the Financial Secretary that it might be an advantage if he could summarise that statement in some way. I have had a summary of it made, and it is extraordinarily interesting For instance, I find that there are 129 Votes in the Estimates, and of those Votes 50 are increases of over £1,000 as compared with the Estimates of last year, nine are increases of less than £1,000, 14 show no change, and 56 are lower. When you come to examine these 50 which show a large increase, more than 30 of them are directly due to legislation or to action taken by the House itself. The others all have reasonable explanations, such, for instance, as the increased number of pay days in this financial year compared with last year. When you get a statement summarised like that, it is much easier to pick out a particular point where you think criticism may be applied than if you have to go through this immense statement which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury issues every year. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it might be worth while considering that point.
  One other suggestion that I would like to make is in reference to the size of the Cabinet itself. When the Estimates Committee or the Public Accounts Committee makes any recommendation in criticism of a particular Department, that recommendation is taken up by the Treasury with the Department concerned. It is quite possible that the Department may
  1458
  object; then the Treasury persists and carries its point because it considers that the recommendation is good. If the point is carried, it eventually becomes a question for the Cabinet. Now, the larger the Cabinet the more inclination there is for every member of the Cabinet, human nature being what it is, to support the Department which is criticised rather than the Treasury, on the simple principle that it may be their turn next. I do not say that is always the case, but it is certainly a temptation, and I have not the slightest doubt that a small Cabinet is much more able to enforce economy than a very large one. I am perfectly convinced you will never get any great economy which, to a large extent, is based on policy, unless you have smaller Cabinets.
  I should like to refer to the speech of the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas). He spent the whole of his time in referring to the Road Fund. He made one very extraordinary statement. He suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was keping out of employmen—I think he said—some 80,000 men, because he had taken, for general Revenue purposes, some £12,000,000 out of the reserve of the Road Fond. May I draw the hon. Member's attention to two facts. One is that he suggested that the £12,000,000 is part of the normal revenue of the Fund, but it is nothing of the kind. It is the capital reserve, which has been utilised for the purpose of financing the Fund for the first nine months in every financial year, because the bulk of the money due to the Fund comes in after 1st January. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly right in taking that money for general revenue purposes and in financing the Fund in future from the general pool, like the other Departments are financed. There is another point. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is keeping out of employment these 80,000 men, may I point out to the hon. Member that his own Leader is equally, though perhaps in a less degree, responsible for the same default because, ever since the Road Fund was formed—originally, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) win remember, it was called the Road Improvement Fund—it has always had a reserve. It is true that it has been an increasing reserve as the revenue of the Fund has increased and

  1459
  the expenditure has increased. It has never spent its revenue in any one year. When the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and when he was Prime Minister, he was responsible for maintaining that reserve and for not spending the whole of it on roads, in the same way that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has not spent it. Therefore, if one right hon. Gentleman is responsible, every previous Chancellor of the Exchequer since the Fund was formed is equally responsible. Before the War, the reserve averaged somewhere round about £3,000,000. Since the War it has been considerably more, partly due to the fact that in 1919–1920 this House voted £8,250,000 to the Road Fund because, for one or two years during the War, the Fund was in a state of suspense. That £8,250,000 was not all spent on the roads. A vast amount of it was put to reserve. Therefore, it is nonsense to suggest that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing something that no previous Chancellor has ever done. It has always been the custom to maintain the reserve, and never to spend all the money in the Road Fund in any one year on the roads. I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly right in the action he has taken, and that he is quite capable of being able to justify it.
  Mr. SMITHERS: The hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. C. Grenfell) touched upon the question of the Sinking Fund in general. I want, for a few minutes, to refer to the Sinking Fund as applicable to certain Government issues. In the next few years the Government will have to make several large conversion or new loans, and I appeal to them to maintain, in any new issue they may have to make, the principle of a Sinking Fund. The House will remember that the Colwyn Committee maintained the principle of the Sinking Fund, and recommended a large increase in it. In my opinion, it is not in the best interests of the finance of this country that the Government should only assure the interest on the loans; they should also do something to make sure that the capital of those loans will be looked after and that, sooner or later, the loans will be redeemed. There have lately been issued what is known in the City as 4 per cent.
  1460
  Consols. The provisions of that loan provided that there should be a £10,000,000 Sinking Fund for 10 years. It should also be noticed, however, that the Government, as far as I read the prospectus, can, if they so desire, increase the amount of the loan without increasing the amount of the Sinking Fund. I believe that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would be doing a great thing for the credit of this country if he found it possible, even now, to apply a small Sinking Fund which would begin to operate when that £10,000,000 Sinking Fund at the end of 10 years is finished with. It would only be 4¼ per cent. per annum, which would give a redemption date to that loan. If we can afford to pay 4 per cent. for interest, we can afford to pay 4¼ per cent. in order, in time, to get rid of the principal. From my own experience, I can testify to the fact that when there is no Sinking Fund the best class of investor is kept away. After all, the trustees, and the experts who have to advise trustees in regard to long and permanent investments, are the very backbone of our investing public and are the people on whom, in the end, the Government have to rely to take their issues.
  Again, the Government have to fix quite soon the redemption or the renewal of the £2,000,000,000 of the 5 per cent. War Loan. I appeal most strongly to the Financial Secretary to do something to prevent that becoming a permanent debt. Whatever form that renewal takes, some provision should be made for a Sinking Fund. In my opinion, the placing of a Sinking Fund, however small, on a loan is sound finance, and the omission of a Sinking Fund is unsound finance. A Sinking Fund, however small, would pay the Government over and over again, because it would enable them to obtain a much higher price for their loan. The Government insist upon a Sinking Fund—I believe it is to within 60 years—on all municipal loans; also, I understand, there is some form of control, and that the municipalities have to render an account of their Sinking Funds, either annually or bi-annually, to the Government. Something of this kind should be applied to Government finance. If Sinking Funds were made part of the policy of the Government, it would do much to raise the price of Government stocks in the market and thus raise British credit. In his opening speech on the Budget, the Chan-

  1461
  cellor of the Exchequer pointed out that there was a particularly small area over which he could effect economies, if any. I suggest that if he can do something to raise the whole level of prices of Government stocks he can really begin to save and economise, and to talk in millions.
  8.0 p.m.
  There is one other point worthy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention. It is rather a technical point, and I will get through with it as quickly as I can. It is a question of shares of no par value. In recent years, there has been a growing tendency to introduce into this country, chiefly from America and Canada, shares of no par value. There is a two-fold object in issuing shares of no par value. First, it does, in effect, enable a company in some measure to disguise its dividend distribution, but that is not the point which I wish to bring to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The point is that by issuing shares of no par value there is no Inland Revenue Duty stamp payable upon those shares. All bearer shares and bonds representing paid-up values have to be stamped, before they become a legitimate transfer from the buyer to the seller, with an appropriate Inland Revenue stamp. Shares of no par value, as they represent no actual denomination, escape that Stamp Duty, though their market value may be very considerable. This is a fruitful avenue to explore. A commencement might be made by taking the valuation of all shares issued which have no par value on a certain given date, and before they can become a good delivery they should be impressed with the Inland Revenue stamp, and suitable arrangements should be made for any new issues. I have in my hand a long list of companies, which runs into a value of many millions. The aggregate value of these companies must be enormous, and the holdings in this country are of very considerable value. May I give one example? The American Cellulose Company has recently issued 206,000 shares of no par value which at the present price of about £25 a share gives a value of £4,300,000 in respect of which no Stamp Duty has been paid. If anyone buys a share Which has a par value, whether it is £1 or £10, an ad valorem stamp duty has to be paid, and it seems extraordinary
  1462
  that the Inland Revenue should favour securities coming from foreign countries or from the Colonies by permitting them to be dealt in in this country without any initial or subsequent payment. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to look very carefully into the size of these transactions. Why are these foreign and Colonial shares to benefit, and benefit very considerably, by having the use of the London market without paying a substantial contribution to the Exchequer?
  There is another point to which I should like to draw attention. A case was recently heard before Mr. Justice Talbot. I give the sentence imposed, because it shows to what penalties people are liable, and they may or may not be quite innocent of the crimes they are about to commit. The man was sentenced to six months' imprisonment and a heavy fine. He was defended by Sir Henry Curtis Bennett and Mr. Walter Monckton. He had a balance on deposit at the bank and omitted to pay Income Tax on the interest, his defence being that he thought the bank paid it for him. May I draw attention to Mr. Justice Talbot's remark?
  "I do not know why that is not done. I hope there is some reason against it, because it is obvious to a plain man that it would save an enormous amount of trouble and bring in a good deal of money."
  Many people have money on deposit, not only with banks but with commercial and trading companies. I should like to suggest the appointment of a small committee of experts—and by experts I mean ex-bank managers or people who have had the expert handling of bank arrangements—because once this policy is decided upon it is only the working out which will present any difficulty. I should like the committee to inquire as to the possibility, even if the banks have to be paid a small poundage for the trouble to which they are put, of money on deposit having Income Tax deducted at the source, the bank making a return and giving the depositor a certificate of deduction of tax. That would obviate cases such as I have quoted, and I am certain a large revenue to the Exchequer would be obtained. Another point upon which I should like to touch is the question of Income Tax being paid by co-operative societies. I cannot do better than quote a short resolution sent to me by a very intelligent and expert body upon this subject:
  "While it is the opinion of this committee that the profits of co-operative societies

  1463
  should be liable to Income Tax, they are emphatically of the opinion that while they are exempt from this liability co-operate societies should also be prohibited from contributing to any funds of any party."
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: I shall be disappointed if the hon. Member is not going to give his opinion of the resolution and tell us from whom it comes, and develop his case.
  Mr. SMITHERS: I would not dare to argue the case with the hon. Gentleman, because he is the biggest expert in England on the subject, but I am always getting complaints from private traders that while they are carrying on their business and having to pay Income Tax and Super-tax upon their profits, the co-operative societies get off free.
  Mr. HARDIE: Who are the committee?
  Mr. SMITHERS: I do not want to give the name. It is a private committee of very intelligent business and expert people. I congratulate the Chancellor upon the extremely clever way he has got the country out of its difficulty. We cannot repeat the performance many more times, but it is encouraging to remember that in spite of all our difficulties, in spite of the industrial disturbances of last year, step by step we are overcoming our financial difficulties, and it is a most remarkable thing that we have been able to keep our American exchange at parity while dispensing with the American credits.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: The first impression anyone unfamiliar with our financial methods would get from a glance at the Bill is that there is extreme difficulty in raising the national requirements. We have on the title page references to all sorts of duties which are little pickings obtained from national and individual expenditure and which must be very costly in collection. I find on examining the national finance that we have a section of the community who get very large pickings from the national income as their share of the national output. We have the statement from the Treasury that a small number of people, 97,000 I believe, take £558,000,000 a year in excess of an individual income of £2,000, in other words, in addition to the £40 a week of what we might describe as the minimum wage for Super-tax payers they take this enormous sum.
  Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: That is not in excess of the £2,000.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: If it is not in excess of the £2,000 it would still leave something between £350,000,000 and £400,000,000 a year which they take in excess of the £2,000. I am subject to correction, as I am speaking without the figures. One would have expected if the Chancellor of the Exchequer wanted to get money easily he would go where the money was, and the money is certainly in the pockets of the people who are drawing these surplus incomes. It is generally agreed that the Finance Bill has two objects. The primary object is, of course, to raise the necessary finance. But there is a secondary or subsidiary object, and that is to organise the trade of the country. I am not in agreement with those who think that the trade of the country should be left to the tender mercies of competition among individuals. I go the length of saying that it ought to be the first duty of the State to organise its trade. The national trade is of the most vital importance to the population, and that which is of most vital importance to the community should, certainly, be the first duty of the State. If I thought that the policy of the Government was helpful in that direction, I should have no hesitation whatever in supporting the Government. I do not agree with the Members below the Gangway who say that if a commodity can be produced cheaper abroad we should purchase it from abroad and not produce it here, because the logic of that is that if everything could be produced cheaper abroad we should not produce anything here.
  Mr. MacKENZIE LIVINGSTONE: Would you get them for nothing?
  Mr. WHEATLEY: My hon. Friend asks, "Would we get them for nothing?" I have no doubt he would get them as cheaply as the cheapest labour in the world could produce them, and that if I invited him to give to the British workers the standard of wages that would enable them to maintain a decent standard of existence he would tell us that they could not have that decent standard of wages because the goods with which they were competing in the home market had been produced by labour employed at less than half the

  1465
  wages that they were seeking in Great Britain. I think it is all nonsense to think that you can have one standard of living here and another standard of living in that part of the world which is competing with you, while the incomes of the people here are necessarily decided by the selling prices in a free competitive market. As I have said, if I saw any serious attempt here to organise trade, I would have no difficulty at all, I think, in supporting the Government. But there is none. I think the whole Empire basis of organisation is fallacious. You have no economic Empire; you have only a political Empire. The people from whom we buy goods in the Colonies may be Germans, Belgians or Americans. There is no such thing as Colonial trade with Great Britain. There is a trade between people in the Colonies and people residing in Great Britain, but the trade is all individual for individual profit. It is not conducted by a colony for the benefit of a colony, or by Britain for the benefit of Britain. When you come to consider the Empire you get all sorts of conditions. If you want to get goods produced under decent conditions you will undoubtedly obtain them from Australia. If you want to keep up your standards here, you will give preferences to Australia on the ground that they are keeping up their standard there, and that you want to have something in the nature of reciprocity. But you will find the very cheapest labour in the world within the Empire. You will find the very worst working conditions in the world within the Empire. So that you are driven back to the fact that being in the Empire is no guarantee that it is going to help us raising our standards of living here, or raising the general standards of living in the world.
  When you come to consider this question, if you are viewing it from the mere standard of raising conditions, all this idea that you can raise conditions by imposing tariffs or duties, or whatever term you like to use, is, I think, wrong. It is the old Free Trade argument. It is one of the few Free Trade arguments with which I agree. The imposing of a duty or a tariff designed to protect your trade at home does not do so, because the article is in before the duty is payable. If you want to protect your trade you want to keep your article out, and
  1466
  if you keep the article out it will not pay any duty, and it will not pay any tariff. The only way to keep it out is, having ascertained your national or trade requirements, to proceed by a system of licensing to prohibit the importation of the undesirable goods or the goods likely to interfere with your conditions at home. When you turn from what we might term the foreign trade aspect of this Bill to the home trade aspect of it, you find exactly the same thing. The object of your Bill, in so far as it is not a revenue collecting Bill but helpful to industry, should be to relieve industry at home. Everyone admits that under the present competitive system your industry requires considerable relief at the present moment, in order to enable the country to attain even to the pre-War standard of prosperity. If you proceed on the assumption that you are helping industry when you cut down the Income Tax, may I remind the House and the Financial Secretary that people were more prosperous here when the Income Tax was high and when wages were higher than they are to-day? Industry was doing better when the Income Tax was at 6s. in the £ than it is with the Income Tax at 4s. in the £.
  The whole idea of relieving Income Tax emanated from conditions that have now disappeared. In the earlier years of the development of this country trade suffered from a shortage of capital, and there grew up in those conditions the idea that if the people who were to provide the capital, or who were to own and control the capital, were given more of it, they would invest more deeply or seriously, and that industry would benefit and that trade would prosper. I believe that there might have been some slight foundation for that half a century ago, but there is no foundation at all for it in Britain to-day. There is no industry to-day that is depressed because there is a shortage of capital in the country. Every industry in this country is depressed because there is a shortage of markets for the goods produced or the goods that might be produced in that industry. The trouble of manufacturers or merchants, to-day is not to find capital for the goods that they can sell, but to find a market for the goods that they cannot sell. Therefore, the national effort to-day should be directed, not to providing more capital for that section of the com-

  1467
  munity who have already more than they can employ, but to finding a market, an outlet for the goods that our factories could produce if they were allowed to run freely, were allowed to employ all our people and were allowed to devote all their brains and energy to more production.
  To-day, we want to relieve industry. Our industries are burdened, and we want to find markets. Our industries are burdened largely by local rates. Local rates do much more injury to industry than would a high Income Tax. The Income Tax, like a tarff, is not imposed until the goods are delivered; that is to say, you have made your income before you pay your Income Tax; but you have to pay your local rates before you are allowed to make your income. I have no doubt that a careful analysis of the industrial situation would show that in the depressed industries, in our heavy industries, the burden of local rates goes a long way to handicap them in the competitive markets. The object of the Government should be to reduce these burdens on the localities, with a view to relieving industry, and that could be done by reducing the local rates; but the whole policy of the Government is in the other direction. They are more and more throwing burdens upon the localities. That would be excusable if there was no other way of finding the money, but when we have this surplus national income to draw upon, there is no justification for continuing to increase the burdens that are already handicapping locally the struggling industries of the country.
  If we want to help our industries in getting markets, we must not proceed on the assumption that we should, as far as possible, reduce the Income Tax. We should render assistance to the people who to-day have unsatisfied wants. We have an industrial population, I suppose running into two-thirds of the whole, who would consume more goods to-day if they had the power to purchase those goods; but we have a national situation in which those people cannot buy the goods, and our industries cannot find a market because the people cannot buy the goods. It all comes back to that. It is the purchasing power of the people at home that is the governing factor in trade. No nation will continue to produce more
  1468
  goods than it can sell, and no nation will continue to import more goods than it can sell. Our foreign trade is not the consumption of goods but merely the exchange of goods. It is the purchasing power of our people at home, no matter how long you analyse it, that is the determining factor in the trade of the country. We find that two-thirds of the people could buy more goods if they had the purchasing power. I cannot see how you are gaining by not giving them the purchasing power. We have a million unemployed people standing idle, who have to be fed, whether you like it or not, for doing nothing. Would it not be much better so to frame your national policy that the product of the labour of those million people would be available for the nation in raising the general standard of living of the toiling masses?
  In so far as a Finance Bill can contribute to that policy, it should do so. If you wish to contribute to that policy, you should not go along the lines of this Finance Bill. I do not think taxation should begin until we have had our breakfast. I do not think that you should tax a man in a country like this, with all its surplus wealth, until after breakfast. You ought to abolish all the taxation which is now imposed on the daily lives of the working classes. I think from the capitalist point of view there would be great advantage and from the point of view of the people who have to depend upon industry in this country, apart from a small group of financiers, it would be sound national policy to abolish the taxation now imposed on the daily lives of the working classes. Instead of putting taxes on tea, sugar, and the piffling and pilfering things that are done in the Finance Bill, you ought to relieve these people from the burdens of taxation altogether. To that extent you would increase their purchasing power, and to the extent to which you increase their purchasing power, you will provide an outlet for the goods which we can produce in ever-increasing quantities.
  I take a very serious view of the present situation, I can see the whole outlet for British goods being closed up. During the nineteenth century we had a great outlet for our goods in the development of the country itself, in putting down railways, in constructing docks, in

  1469
  sinking mines, and in the general development of the nation, but in the twentieth century we have no outlet for goods in that direction. The door is closed, bolted and barred against us. We have now to find an outlet for our goods somewhere else, and the only way in which we can get that outlet is by a general raising of the standard of life of the working classes of this country. That ought to be the first object of any Government, and that is why I cannot agree with those who think that everything in regard to the standard of prices and wages should be fixed by free competition. We want national organisation. The Government is grappling for Empire organisation, but they are going the wrong way about it. Instead of making their basis the standard of living of the majority of the people, they are making their basis a geographical one. I think they are on entirely wrong lines.
  I am opposed to this Finance Bill because it does nothing at all to relieve the very serious difficulties that confront British industry to-day. Those difficulties arise entirely from an insufficient outlet for our goods. They do not arise from any difficulty in producing all that we need, or in importing in exchange all that we require. We can only get that greater market by organising the purchasing power of our own people, and controlling prices in such a way as will provide that any advantage granted to them in wages is not taken away by profiteering in the way of high prices. If the Government in this Finance Bill gave us a glimmer of hope that we might expect them, in view of the difficulties of British industry, to do something in the way of the national organisation of industry and trade, I could sympathise with their proposals, but, as things are, they give no indication that they have the slightest appreciation of the troubles, difficulties and obstacles that confront the nation, and therefore I and my party will oppose this Finance Bill.
  Sir PHILIP PILDITCH: Although I want to confine myself to one point in this discussion, I cannot resist the temptation to say a few words in regard to the speech to which we have just listened. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman as a full-blooded Protectionist. I hope that before long he will toe the line completely, and go so far
  1470
  as to be an Imperial Protectionist, and make it a mutual matter of trade between parts of the same Empire all trading together. He said there was no such thing as Colonial Trade with us. Does he say that is so in regard, for instance, to the 6,000,000 Australians of the same blood as ourselves.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: What about India?
  Sir P. PILDITCH: I cannot say that the blood sympathy is the same, but the interests of both countries are identical. I wonder why the right hon. Gentleman thought he was bringing an argument in favour of a high Income Tax when he said that we had a high rate of Income Tax during the time when trade was booming after the War.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: In 1920.
  Sir P. PILDITCH: What is there in that? We know perfectly well that we had then an ephemeral boom period based on inflation, but does he imagine that the short-lived prosperity of that period had anything to do with the high Income Tax which was in force then? He will have to go much further into the then circumstances before he can convince the House that that is the case. There is one other point upon which I should like to touch, and that, is his perfectly correct statement with regard to the influence upon industry of high local rates. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's speech on that point, and I hope he will hand on his views on this subject to those of his friends around him who have to deal with local and civic matters, because hon. Members of his party, whenever they get possession and control of local government in any district in this country, at once set to work to send up the rates. There is some difference between the right hon. Gentleman's views with regard to high local rates and the action of members of his own party——
  Mr. WHEATLEY: May I make this point clear? I do not object to high local expenditure. What I object to is the burden of the expenditure being thrown on the locality when it is largely in the national interest.
  Sir P. PILDITCH: I, of course, accept any disclaimer which the right hon. Gentleman makes, but I rather understood him to say that high local rates were really more against trade than a high Income Tax, and I put it to the right

  1471
  hon. Gentleman that he should advise his friends, in those districts where they have local control, to take care that the rates are kept at a moderate level.
  Mr. PALING: And put it on the Income Tax?
  Sir P. PILDITCH: That is another matter. The right hon. Gentleman's speech was so interesting on these various points that I could not help following him for a moment or two. On the occasion of these Debates we all follow the particular hare we have in our minds, but if I had followed the hon. and gallant Member for Bootle (Lieut.-Colonel Henderson) I should have been in the position of creating a record and precedent in these debates, because I wanted to say a word on the same subject that he spoke on. I want to say a word or two on a question which has been dealt with by many speakers in various Debates in connection with the Budget—the question of economy. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. E. C. Grenfell), to whose admirable speech most Members of the House were extremely interested in listening, made a reference at the end of his remarks to a matter on which, I think, he is under some misapprehension. Incidentally, I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary will tell us whether their views coincide with the views of the hon. Member for the City of London on the question of the Sinking Fund. At the end of his speech my hon. Friend said, dealing with the question of the heavy taxation which this Finance Bill envisages, that we must have economy, and he proceeded to deal with one or two suggestions which had been made as to how economy might be effected. One of the things to which he referred was the proposal that there should be a Committee of the Cabinet which should go into the various Departments of State and do their best to effect reforms. He said that that was a very admirable thing to do. That is not what has been proposed. I do not know to what my hon. Friend was referring. I have not heard that particular proposal made.
  A suggestion was made during the Debate on the Budget, about a fortnight ago, by the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) in a most
  1472
  illuminating speech on the question of expenditure. He was examining the machinery which might be set up for effecting economy and the reduction of expenditure. I am sorry my right hon. Friend is not in his place at the moment. In the course of that speech he pointed out—it interested me very much because I said the same thing a year ago—that the various means that were in existnce now were, for one reason or another, rather ineffective for this purpose. There are the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who conduct post-mortem examinations into expenditure already made. The Estimates Committee, referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Bootle, who is the Chairman of the Committee, does not deal with expenditure in a post-mortem way. It is supposed to deal with Estimates before they are brought before the House of Commons, but, as a matter of fact, the examination of the Estimates Committee is almost a post-mortem examination, because it cannot get Estimates before it until they are ready to come before this House; in many cases it is dealing with Estimates which are on the point of being presented and in some cases with Estimates that have been passed by the House. There is exceedingly little that these bodies can do.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich asked the question as to whether this House could effect economy, and he came to the conclusion that it is a very inadequately equipped body for such a purpose. A Committee was set up a few years ago called the National Expenditure Committee, which brought out this remarkable fact. They said, in a short, pregnant paragraph, that not for 25 years has the House of Commons ever reduced on financial grounds an Estimate which had been put before it by the Government of the day. That shows like a flashlight how utterly inadequate is the House of Commons to control expenditure. The fact of the matter is that the House of Commons is a legislative assembly; it is not a financial body which cam effectively control expenditure. My right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich came to the conclusion, just as I did, that only by action within the Government itself can you get economy which is on such a correct plane that it is commensurate

  1473
  with efficiency. My personal conviction is that such economy can only be secured by the action of the Government itself, coupled with a desire to act in co-operation with this House, and with instructed public opinion on the matter. How is the Government to do this? Last year I understand there was in existence an Economy Committee of the Cabinet.
  Mr. McNEILL: There is still.
  Sir P. PILDITCH: I am glad to hear that, but with all respect I wish to ask some questions about it. Last year the labours of the Economy Committee resulted in the bringing in of an Economy Bill. That Measure, I understood, was to result in a saving of about £8,000,000. To my great surprise when reading the OFFICIAL REPORT last night, as light literature, I came across a speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), in which he said that the Bill only procured a real cash saving of about £78,000. He did not develop the matter, and did not show how he made out his figures, but I challenge the Financial Secretary to say if it is the case that we have been going along all this time under the impression that the Economy Committee had produced an economy amounting to £8,000,000 and that we have been hoaxed.
  Sir F. WISE: I think if the hon. Member reads my speech again he will find that I stated that the other figures were really adjustments of accounts.
  Sir P. PILDITCH: I remember the phrase quite well. I read it last night just before I dropped off to sleep, and it is fixed in my memory. But I thought my hon. Friend meant that an adjustment of accounts was not a real economy. If he meant differently he will probably explain the matter to the House on another occasion. Last year, however, we heard something of the Cabinet Economy Committee. We knew it had been operating and had produced that Economy Measure which, I still believe, resulted in a certain amount of economy. Starting from the hypothesis that you cannot get effective economy except from within the Government, it is by the effective use of an Economy Committee within the Cabinet that you are more likely to achieve results than in any other way. That is why I am anxious to know how the Cabinet Committee on economy
  1474
  is functioning at present. I had a Motion on the Order Paper asking the Government to set up a permanent Economy Committee of the Cabinet, and I do not feel flattered, because it is clear that my Motion has not received the attention which I had hoped it would receive. That may be accounted for by the fact that it is wedged in among a dozen others which refer to other ways of dealing with the subject of economy. I should like to know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary have found the Economy Committee of value to them in helping them to present a front of brass to all the demands made by the spending departments. One realises that unless he is supported in some way by elements within the Cabinet, not associated with the great spending departments, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must be fighting a lone hand. We have known from our past financial experience that only exceptional men like Gladstone or that great Chancellor who has already been mentioned—"Black Michael"—knew how to look after their colleagues in the matter of expenditure. In the present altogether altered circumstance even they, unaided, would not be able to exercise, effective control over the spending departments. Therefore, I hope the Financial Secretary will tell the House if the Cabinet Committee is functioning, and how it is operating, and whether or not we may expect some results from its labours in the near future.
  Mr. GILLETT: The Financial Secretary to the Treasury in his opening remarks unwittingly diverted the thoughts of Members towards certain subjects which have not been much discussed in this House in recent years. In connection with the question of one-man companies, I should like to ask him whether he is satisfied with the wording of this Clause, and I should like him to explain who is supposed to be the actual controller of a company. For example, there may be a company with a capital of £100,000, and £60,000 of that capital may be owned by one person. Surely the control of that company might legally be declared to be in the hands of that one person. On the other hand, is it intended that control should depend on the number of directors actually appointed? I take it the Clause does not mean that, because it would be easy to increase the number at any time. I take it that the

  1475
  question of control is virtually going to be a question of those in whose hands the shares are held, and that there must be more than six people among whom the shares are divided in such a way that one of them is predominant, in order to escape coming under this Clause. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is quite satisfied with it, but I think there is something to be said for the suggestion made by another hon. Member, that the Clause was not very clear and that possibly it would be found that there are ways of getting out of it. I do not think any hon. Member is at all anxious that those who run these companies should get out of it, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be satisfied that it really is clear before it finally goes through the House.
  There was a matter mentioned by the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. C. Grenfell), in the very interesting discourse that he gave to us, which hon. Members must recognise as being the orthodox view of finance held by the majority of people in the City of London to-day. He mentioned, with some seeming dissatisfaction, the fact that a circular had been sent to him by the Export Credits Department announcing that credits could be obtained on certain terms. I am fairly well acquainted with the Department, because I happen to be a member of the Committee, and I do not wish in any way personally to dissociate myself from that circular, although I had not seen it before, because the Committee meets at the same time as the House meets, and I have been unable to get to it for the last few weeks. I see nothing whatever to object to in a circular of that kind. It was a fitting introduction to the speech of the hon. Member for the City, because it shows the limitations of the financial policy which he outlined in his speech As an hon. Member has said, the scheme now, which was reorganised a year or two ago on the recommendation of the Committee presided over by the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills), is simply a scheme for insuring trade abroad, and, therefore, the hon. Member for the City is correct in saying that it imposes a liability on the Government.
  To my mind, the hon. Member's ideals of simply getting your finance based on
  1476
  an absolutely perfect footing, returning to the gold standard, getting your Sinking Fund in the position that as soon as possible the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have the control of the money market when he goes there for loans, are excellent in themselves, and most important, but, like every great theory, when you come to put it into practice, you have to make most important exceptions. It was that consideration, I suppose, which induced two very distinguished economists like Professor Keynes and Sir Josiah Stamp to question the rapid return to the gold standard. At the present time, there is still a question whether the financial policy supported by those who think with the hon. Member for the City was not too hasty and did not bring results on the country from which we are suffering to-day. The hon. Member says we ought not to have this insurance scheme. But at the present time we want trade. Why has this scheme been brought in? It is not as successful as it might be, but it is an experiment that is being made by private companies. The merchants of this country who want to export their goods fear, on account of the unrest on the Continent of Europe and elsewhere, to accept the offers made by persons in Rumania or some other country, because they think that before the transaction is completed there may be a revolution there; or in some country, such as Poland or some other country on the Russian border, they say that, while their customers are perfectly honest, something may happen in regard to the laws or the Government of the country, and, therefore, they hesitate to do business with those countries.
  9.0 p.m.
  The Government have stepped forward in those circumstances and said, on the same basis that a person insures his house or his life: "We will insure this transaction, or a part of it, in order that it may be possible to carry out this trade"; and remember that the trade has to be for goods that have been made in this country. In that way trade will be increased, the manufacturers will get larger business, and the workers will get more work to do. It is a very simple proposition, and one that is being talked of as quite feasible for the development of private business. The hon. Member for the City of London has urged economy

  1477
  and a large Sinking Fund in order as rapidly as possible to get the Debt into the position which I have already mentioned. As I have said before, although hon. Members talk about economy, they no more believe in. it than I do. When you run a Navy or an Army, they should be run as efficiently and as reasonably as possible, and if that is what is meant by economy, I quite agree with it, but I believe that that kind of economy is only going to be carried out by the Ministers responsible seeing that the heads of the Departments are efficient and that they carry out their work properly, in the same way as a manager of a large concern sees to his departments.
  When you pass from that to the economy that hon. Members opposite, like the hon. Member for the City of London, talk about, such as those of us who sit on these benches being more extravagant than they are, I would ask hon. Members opposite why they do not close down the Singapore base. They may say it is impossible, but all the economies that the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise) and the other hon. Members opposite are really thinking about, dealing with questions of staff, whether you should sack an office boy in a certain Department or get rid of a few typists and charwomen in another Department, would be wiped out by doing away with the Singapore base. I understand the hon. Members' position. They say: "Impossible; it is essential for our prestige that the Singapore base should be carried on," but there is no reason why they, on the other hand, should accuse us of extravagance when we say that it is just as important for our prestige that children who are not properly fed should be fed, and that children who are not properly educated should be educated.
  It is of no use either party pretending to be great economists. I believe that all these schemes suggested, such as setting up Committees, are perfectly futile. They will never do anything at all. The only economy dealing with principles is the economy that right hon. Gentlemen on that bench, the Ministers who lay down the great principles of policy, can carry out. Think, for instance, of the £14,000,000 that went on two large battleships. No one to-day thinks those battleships are of any great importance to us, and £14,000,000 could have been saved there. There are really
  1478
  only two great things on which you can make any large economies. One is on the military forces, and the other is in regard to the question of the Debt. With what the hon. Member for the City of London said, I entirely agree, if you look at the Debt from the standpoint of the Debt alone, but you cannot carry out these great principles without considering their practical effect upon other people.
  When you come to the question of the Debt, you are at once brought up against the question of how much money it is advisable to raise from the community in order to put it back in the form of the reduction of Debt. One hon. Member pointed out that there would be a saving of £6,000,000 a year if we could reduce the rate of interest on Treasury Bills by 1 per cent. Apart from Treasury Bills, the possible saving in regard to the Debt is not really as large as many Members think. Take the year 1932. If you were able to refund your Debt at 4 per cent., you would make a saving on the permanent Debt—when I say permanent Debt I mean the Debt apart from Treasury Bills —of something like £11,000,000. If you can fund the Debt at 3½per cent., the saving would be something like £17,000,000. Therefore, the figures are not as large as many hon. Members have often thought, though, of course, if this is spread over a number of years the figures naturally get larger.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Is the 5 per cent. War Loan in that calculation?
  Mr. GILLETT: As far as I understand, all the loans. I have quoted the figures that appear in the Colwyn Report. The hon. Member for the City of London, who really could have spoken on this subject perhaps better than any other man in the House, would agree, I am sure, that as we have gone back to the gold standard the crux of the position to-day is, What is the position of gold in the world? In order to get some of the savings we are so anxious to achieve we want to see gold coming into the Bank of England. It is well known to hon. Members that at the conference at Genoa some years ago it was recommended that there should be a meeting of the central banks in order to see if the gold of the world could not be more centralised, and I should like to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether anything is being done

  1479
  to carry out any of the suggestions made by the Geneva Conference, or, if nothing is being done on those lines, whether the Economic Conference sitting to-day at Geneva has been asked to consider this problem of the gold supplies of the world. No doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other hon. Members have seen in the "Times" recently a passage quoted from an article by Professor Cassels in which he has suggested that the gold output of the world in the near future is likely to be less than it was in previous years—I think be put it pre-War years. If there is to be a decrease in the gold output of the world, and gold is to be left at the mercy of every Government which wants to create a war chest or to accumulate gold, the position of this country may be exceedingly serious from the point of view of the Chancellor getting his rate of interest reduced. As we have gone back to the gold standard and are so dependent on gold coming into the Bank, this question is one of supreme interest, and the Government, or the Bank of England at any rate, ought to consider the question. However, I do not wish to ask for any information which ought to be kept secret, and I can quite understand that there are things which it may not be advisable to make public. The matter ought nevertheless, to be carefully considered, and in the Economic Conference we are afforded an opportunity for giving the subject attention.
  When I heard the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so far from being impressed by it, I felt I was listening to the chairman of a company who was drawing on his hidden reserves in order to tide over a bad time. It may be that the Chancellor may find better times ahead, but certainly the feeling about the Budget is that he is taking reserves which he had no business to touch in order to get out of his difficulties. I do not propose to delay the House with those points, but I hope that on the one or two points I have mentioned we may have any information the Chancellor of the Exchequer can give us.
  Sir FRANK SANDERSON: I would like to preface my remarks by expressing my appreciation of the endeavours which are being made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce national expenditure. I refer to his policy of
  1480
  winding-up the Ministry of Transport, the Mines Department and the Department of Overseas Trade. His proposals are particularly gratifying to me, because I was one of those who were responsible for placing the Motion on the Order Paper. I would rather have seen him carry his policy on the matter a little further. I would like to have seen the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade incorporated with the other three as a Ministry of Industry. However, it is not my intention to pursue that matter further, for I wish to say a few words in regard to what has been done in connection with the Safeguarding of Industries Act and the McKenna Duties. The industrial world is pleased to see that the pottery industry and the motor tyre industry have received consideration at the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the present Budget, but industrialists are disappointed to find that more use has not been made of the Safeguarding of Industries Act. They feel that considerably more might have been done. It is difficult to understand how it is that some industries which were highly prosperous have secured a safeguarding duty, and others which are suffering from severe foreign competition, are unable to derive any benefit under those Acts.
  I will give one case to illustrate my point—the great worsted and woollen textile industry. Last year a Committee was set up by the Board of Trade to determine whether or not that industry should be safeguarded under the Safeguarding of Industries Act. I do not propose to worry the House with a volume of figures, but I would like hon. Members to consider these; I will quote round figures to the nearest millions. In 1920, approximately 2,000,000 square yards of woollen and worsted manufactured goods were imported into this country; in 1921, 3,000,000; in 1922, 6,500,000; in 1923, 12,000,000; in 1924, 21,700,000; and in 1925, no less than 29,700,000. The figures for 1926 show that there were no less than 43,000,000 square yards of woollen tissue, etc., and over 17,400,000 lbs. of woollen and worsted yarns, imported into this country, and the value of these is no less than £13,000,000. This shows that foreign competition has been continuous and progressive; and I estimate that the

  1481
  amount of workers who could have been constantly employed during last year is no less than 25,000. The Report of the Worsted Committee states:
  "We have arrived at the conclusion that unemployment is not at present seriously affected by the importation of foreign goods."
  But surely that cannot be regarded as a reasonable summary of the position. Simultaneously we find that the chairman of the Dunlop Rubber Company makes the following comment in regard to tyres:
  "Coming down to the future, our main revenue comes from the sale of tyres, and during the first three months of the present year our sales have consistently beaten all previous records. Our principal factories are working at the greatest pressure, and it is with the greatest difficulty that they are able to meet the demands placed upon them, and exceptional efforts are being made to relieve the situation."
  In the face of all this, the Chancellor of the Exchequer places a 33 per cent. tax upon tyres, thus making a prosperous industry even more prosperous. Of course I am in favour of a tax upon tyres, but it is very difficult for the manufacturer to understand that when his industry has become prosperous and is paying large dividends, and the workpeople in that trade are fully employed, a tariff of 33 per cent. should be placed upon that industry while other important industries are left to the mercy of foreign competition. If the woollen and worsted industry was safeguarded, another 25,000 workers would have been fully employed.
  I will refer to another subject. I would like to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the increasing amount of the deposits which are accruing in the banks of this country. On the 31st March this year the total was £1,669,000,000. If we take the interest at 4 per cent. it amounts to £66,768,000, and the Income Tax thereon would amount to no less than £13,353,000. I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what percentage of that income Tax he considers he is collecting at the present time, and what amount is being lost to the Exchequer. I would suggest that deposits of £1,000 and over should have income Tax deducted at the source. I fail to see any practical reason why this should not be done, because it is the common practice of those who make use of the banks for overdrafts to
  1482
  collect from the Income Tax authorities the rebate allowed on that overdraft.
  My final point is one which, I am afraid, may not be regarded seriously by the House. Nevertheless, I propose to make it. We have heard a good deal about economy this evening, and we have discussed the consequential results from an imposition of a capital levy, if such were ever contemplated. What I want to put before the House in all seriousness is that the Government should consider the launching of an economy loan, and that this loan should be an attempt to raise £1,000,000,000, and the interest on that loan should be 2½per cent. The issue should be made at par and repayable in 15 years. If that could be done, the gross saving in interest upon the National Debt would be £25,000,000 per annum. I would provide that in the event of the death of the original holder the bonds should be repayable at par value. All existing Government securities should be convertible at their relative values and all new moneys subscribed should be appropriated to the reduction of the floating Debt. The reduction of the floating Debt would have the effect of cheapening credit, and if Government credit could be cheapened so as to enable them to borrow at one-half per cent. lower than the present rate they are paying, it would cause a saving of no less than £35,000,000 per annum, and, further, would prevent the recurrence of unreliable Budget estimates of cost of interest upon the floating Debt. It would also cause a restoration in the use of commercial bills which have fallen into disuse to a material extent since the War. This plan of economy if it could be made successful, would be better than a capital levy even if that were practical, because the amount that would be saved in interest payments to the national Exchequer could not compensate for the tremendous cancellation of credit that it would involve. The money capital of individuals would be diminished by the cancellation of the paper securities of which the Debt consists, but they are the finest securities in the world to-day. In my opinion it would be highly dangerous to cancel the national credit which has been created, at a greater rate than new capital is built up, because since the War the cost of wages and materials and production costs have very materially increased, and to that extent increased capital is essential.

  1483
  My proposal, therefore, is, in my opinion, a solution for reducing the weight of interest on the National Debt. It would save £25,000,000 a year in interest and might also save £30,000,000 by enhancing our national credit, and enabling conversion operations to be carried out at a lower rate of interest. If this were practicable, the saving would be approximately £55,000,000 per annum, which is rather more than 1s. in the £ on Income Tax, and those who subscribed to this loan would find that the amount which they would save by the reduction in Income Tax would compensate them for the loss in income return from the investment in the proposed loan. The question is, could this be done? I expected when I commenced to express my views that the whole House would regard it as too Utopian, but I want to make the following observations. There is over £7,000,000,000 invested in Government securities. There is lying in the banks on deposit to-day, an amount of no less than £1,669,000,000, receiving very little more in interest than the amount which I suggest would be payable under this loan and with inferior security. There are in this country over 14,000,000 investors, and if it were possible to make this a really national subscription it would only require an average of £70 for each investor in this country to raise the amount of £1,000,000,000 suggested. I believe the people are prepared to make an annual sacrifice out of income, but they cannot afford to give away the source from which their income is derived, namely, their capital, nor, indeed, is it in the interest of the country that they should do so on any grand scale for the reasons which I have already stated. It can he done if the Government would create the necessary conditions and if they would spend £500,000 or more in propaganda and advertising and creating an atmosphere of competition between the cities, towns and villages, and printing a daily list of names of subscribers.
  I believe, if my memory serves me right, that in the course of the War, when it was necessary to raise large sums of money, the Government devised a scheme whereby every investor had his name inscribed on a roll. I do not know that any great patriotism was necessary to subscribe money at 5 per cent. during
  1484
  the War, except to the extent—and this is very true—that many people and business houses mortgaged their assets and their credit in order to subscribe, If something on these lines were done its connection with my proposed loan it would add to the possibility of the loan being successful. My proposal, if adopted,, would depend on the spirit and good will of our people for its success. It would entail a great sacrifice, but I confidently believe our people are prepared and willing to make that sacrifice for the common cause to-day. They want a counter-action to the present spirit of restlessness. To-day is our great opportunity to launch such a scheme. A spirit of mutual sacrifice is the only means of creating true brotherhood. Let the Government ask for this and they will not ask in vain. Who is there among us who does not strive to lighten the burden of their children by personal sacrifice during their own lifetime? The National Debt is borrowed for the people from the people. What better heritage could we leave to posterity than a peaceful nation, freed from the unparalleled burden of debt?
  Mr. THURTLE: In these rather cynical and pessimistic days, it is quite refreshing to meet a man full of faith and optimism, and for that reason I was very interested in listening to the proposal which has been made by the hon. Member who has just sat down. I would like to congratulate him, because I think in this respect he is different from most hon. Members on that side of the House. He has talked about the need for cutting down national expenditure, and he has made some attempt to show the way in which it should be done, and although I am not at all sanguine as to the practical result of putting such a proposal into operation, I do congratulate him on facing the fact that the Debt burden is one heavy item in national expenditure. I should like to suggest one way which would possibly make his scheme rather more successful than it appears likely to be at present. If he can induce the Government to make it take the form of a national lottery in this respect, that he could say that every subscriber of £1,000 or more of this 2½ per cent. stock would stand a chance—I do not say a very great chance, but some kind of chance—of getting a Baronetcy or Peerage, or something like that, I think there

  1485
  would be a possibility of much greater subscriptions than otherwise would be the case.
  I do not wish to pursue that line of argument on that particular point. Now that the Chancellor is here I would like to direct his attention to a point raised by one of his hon. Friends when he was absent, with reference to the interest which is credited at banks on deposit accounts. He will remember that some time ago the Junior Member for Dundee pressed him on the point that there was at the present time a great deal of interest credited by the banks on accounts which were on deposit and yet there was no means of telling whether Income Tax was paid on that interest or not. An earnest appeal was made by one of the right hon. Gentleman's friends to take this matter in hand to see if he could not arrange that the bank should deduct the tax at the source. It is a common belief, though it may be a mistaken one, that there is a great deal of money escaping the National Exchequer in that way.
  There was one other point raised by an hon. Member who has now left the House, in regard to the effect of Income Tax on unemployment. He contended that a heavy Income Tax did tend to increase unemployment. I would invite him and other hon. Members to consider a very interesting chart which is to be found in the Colwyn Committee Report. I think it is in the Minority Report. They will find there a chart which shows that the amount of unemployment existing bears no relation whatever to the degree of the Income Tax. In periods when the Income Tax was at its very highest unemployment was at its lowest. I do not say that that always obtains, but there are occasions when that condition of things was obtaining; and it is quite clear, from that chart, that there is no relation between the extent of the Income Tax and the extent of unemployment. I hope hon. Members will not try to urge that if the Income Tax is going to be increased it is going to have an adverse effect on employment.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in introducing the Bill this afternoon, said he was quite certain that he would hear a lot of the old arguments repeated. I do not profess that I have anything original to say, but I would like to point out that, while we
  1486
  continue to have a Tory Government which, by means of its taxation proposals, continues to grind the face of the poor in an unreasonable fashion, we, as representatives and champions of the poor in this House, must continue to utter our protest against that state of things. The burden of taxation upon the poor is still out of all proportion, and I would like to draw attention to the condition of the people now as compared with pre-War conditions. There is, in this Colwyn Report, a Ministry of Labour table which shows that wages in 1920–1921 only just overtook the cost of living at that time. If von take the whole period since the end of the War, and compare that with pre-War conditions, the workers to-day are slightly worse off than they were before the War. An hon. Member reminds me that it was a Liberal Government that was in office in those days. I would remind him that it was a Liberal Prime Minister who said that in those days 13,000,000 people were living on the verge of starvation. There has recently been issued an advanced Report of the Census of Production which shows that in six different trades the production per person employed in those industries has gone up tremendously—2½ times in the cotton trade, 2½ times in the boot and shoe trade, three times in the sugar industry, four times in the tobacco industry, and double in the grain industry.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Does the tobacco industry include selling costs?
  Mr. THURTLE: I must ask for notice of that question, because I am not in a position to answer off-hand; but, bearing in mind this fact and the fact that the people are in a slightly worse condition than they were in pre-War days, I would invite the House to consider the burden of taxation on these very poor people. Take a family of five—man, wife and three children—a typical family as used for illustrative purposes in the Colwyn Report. Suppose this family gets a wage of £3 a week, which is a very common wage among the workers. Such a family was paying, in 1914, 2s. 6d. a week by way of taxation. In 1925–26 that family, out of this £3 a week, is paying 7s. 3d. a week in taxation. There is the same difference in the case of a £4 a week man. He was paying 3s. a week before the War, and he is now

  1487
  paying 8s. 8d. When you come to compare that with the much higher rates of income, it is quite clear that the higher wages are not bearing anything like their fair share of taxation. A man getting a week—or £500 a year—is only paying 12s. a week That really bears no relation at all to the amount which is being paid by the £3 a week man and the £4 a week man. I have recited these facts because I want to demonstrate the point that the very poorest class are being compelled to pay, at the present time, a disproportionate amount of the taxation of the country.
  I now turn to an entirely different class, the Super-tax payers. The figures which I have hear bear out the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about 18 months ago at the Colchester Oyster Feast. I remember it well, because he made it on that occasion, and I thought he must have been enjoying himself. He said that the country, in spite of the unemployment which existed, was getting richer and richer; and if you turn to the figures in connection with Super-tax payers it is quite clear that a certain class of people in the country are getting richer and richer. Hon. Members opposite who pay Super-tax know quite well that it does not become operative until an income of over £2,000 is reached. I find that, in 1922–23, there were only 89,800 Super-tax payers, arid they paid between £62,800,000; but in 1925–26 the number had gone up to 97,000, so it is quite evident, just taking these figures as they stand, that the rich are getting richer, and, as we know, the poor are getting poorer. That was the only point I wanted to make—the point that the burden of taxation on the poorest classes in the community is far too heavy. What any broad-minded Chancellor and any Chancellor who considers the interest of the nation as a whole, ought to do, is to take some of this burden off the poor people and put it on to the backs of those who can bear it better. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is nodding his head in approval, and I am glad to notice it, but in spite of that I am going to conclude by saying something which will probably offend him. This Finance Bill is just like all the other Finance Bills that he has introduced. It is an excellent testimonial to the unswerving loyalty and devotion of the right hon. Gentle-
  1488
  man to his own class. Just because it is a Budget of that kind we have to oppose it, and we have to oppose every Budget of that sort.
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), who moved the rejection of this Bill, is now in his place. In the course of his speech he took on the role of the friend of the industrialist, and, amongst the arguments that he adduced, he suggested that, from the point of view of industrial welfare, it would be better to decrease the tax on earned income and to increase the tax on unearned income. In making that proposition, he apparently forgot that by far the larger proportion of the unearned income comes directly from industry, and that, if there were to be a large disproportion between the tax on unearned and on earned income, no individual would be likely to invest his money in industry, with the risk of losing that money, and people would, on the contrary, withdraw their money from industry and put it into debentures and Mortgages, and the very class which the hon. Gentleman dislikes most, namely, the rentier class, would be by his proposals considerably benefited.
  I do not, however, particularly wish to pursue that argument. What I would like to say is that this Bill must necessarily be considered in view of the fact that it deals with a period in which took place events of an exceptional character. The general strike and the prolonged dispute in the coal trade must necessarily have a very great repercussion on our financial situation. Both of those events were temporary and abnormal. It would, in my opinion, be unnecessary and unwise to consider that the great industrial upheaval through which we passed last year was part and parcel of our normal industrial existence. Faced by a financial situation of exceptional gravity, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was certainly entitled to use exceptional means. He had a duty to perform of summoning to his aid all the non-recurring revenue on which he could lay hands, in order to meet an abnormal situation. To my mind, it would have been the height of unwisdom, in order to meet an exceptional situation, to alter the basis of our permanent revenue, producing medium. To have done so would have

  1489
  been to strike a blow at our industries just at a time When they were about to exert their greatest efforts to recover, just at a time when they required the greatest possible assistance to help them to recover from the ravages of a long cessation of production.
  For myself, I most sincerely congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his ingenuity in devising expedients to meet an abnormal situation, and on the successful results of his raiding expedition to the regions of the windfalls. As an example of raising money by unique methods to meet an exceptional situation, this, to my mind, is a great success. But it must not be considered purely in that isolated aspect. It has to be considered, not only in the light of this one Bill, but in relation to the two Budgets which preceded it, in relation to the financial and economic policy which was part of the policy laid down by the Conservative party before they came into office, and also in relation to the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself.
  I do not propose to remind the Committee again of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said when he introduced his first Budget. Then he thought that a saving of £10,000,000 per annum was something to be aimed at, and something which he thought was definitely within the bounds of possibility. But, apart from the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I want to point out that as a party we were returned to office pledged to rigid economy; we entered office to reduce expenditure. The first Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer showed an expenditure £7,000,000 above that of the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden). His second Budget showed an increase over that of £24,000,000, and the Budget which we are now considering in the form of the present Finance Bill proposes to expend £10,000,000 more. It would appear that during the Chancellor's three years of office he has passed through a period of disillusion. He started with the conviction that it would be a proper thing to effect year by year a saving of £10,000,000 per annum. To use his own words, he said that a saving of £10,000,000 per annum was not an extravagant figure. In opening the Budget which he presented this year, he
  1490
  spent a great deal of time in expatiating on natural increases of expenditure, and the inevitable growth of expenditure—automatic growth, and so forth.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Productive growth.
  Mr. HAMMERSLEY: It would appear from the Chancellor's speech in introducing this Budget that he had rather taken the view that it was necessary, in view of what was happening in the country, that expenditure should naturally grow up. If, however, we are to accept this theory of the natural increase of expenditure, we can only do so with complacency if we are to have, side by side with that natural increase in expenditure, a natural increase in the prosperity of the country. The point I want to make is that the basis of the expenditure forecast in the last Budget was of such a character that it must necessarily rest on an assumption of considerable prosperity this year—prosperity of such a character that it will not only overcome the deficit of last year, but will also carry us on in that normal growth on which an increase in expenditure must naturally depend.
  To my mind, even making allowances which must be made naturally, because of the exceptional experiences of last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is budgeting for a greater expenditure than the country can, in fact, afford. If this year we are going to have a very considerable expansion of trade, if we are going to have a very considerable increase in exports, if at the end of the year we are going to find ourselves with a substantial credit trade balance, then the Chancellor's Budget is entirely justified. This Bill finds its justification in an assumption of substantially increased prosperity this year, and I would like to examine the grounds for that assumption. Of course, I must admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has exceptional means of information at his disposal. It may very well be that the optimism which he has shown is justified in fact. If that be the case, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not only perform a valuable public service but will facilitate industry in this country if he lays before the House the grounds on which he estimates that this year we are going to have that extra prosperity on which the success of the Budget

  1491
  depends. It is obvious that this year we shall have a very considerable falling off in revenue; a falling off from the point of view of the bad trading of last year. The stoppage of production due to the coal strike is going to be reflected in the receipts.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer must be aware that instead of having an automatic increase of national prosperity, we have had just the reverse. From the point of view of trade balances during the last few years we have entered upon a, period of declension. Instead of showing an automatic increase year by year, our trade balance is showing an automatic decrease. The balances of income and expenditure in transactions, other than lending and repayment of capital, between the United Kingdom and all other countries have been estimated by the Board of Trade as follows: In 1922, there was a credit balance of £154,000,000; in 1923, there was a credit balance of £153,000,000; in 1924, there was a credit balance of £86,000,000; and in 1925 there was a credit balance of £54,000,000. Last year, there was a debit balance of £12,000,000. Surely, those are not figures sufficient to justify an automatic increase in expenditure. Another criterion of the prosperity of the country is to be found in the savings of the people. The Committee of National Debt and Taxation—the Colwyn Committee—showed that the national savings in 1913 were, approximately, £375,000,000. In 1924, they were £474,000,000. Allowing for higher prices and increased population, the 1924 figure, to be equal to the 1913 figure, should have been £650,000,000. The present rate of savings, however, compared with pre-War, shows a deficiency in present money value of between £150,000,000 and £200,000,000 per annum. Here, again, are not figures which would justify a belief in the possibility of a natural and inevitable increase in expenditure.
  10.0 p.m.
  Turning to the export trade of this year, it is true that probably our coal exports will be increased. Even then, it is doubtful whether, at the end of this year, we shall, in money values considerably exceed a normal year of coal exports due to the fact that the prices of coal are very much lower. Take our main export-
  1492
  ing industry, the cotton trade. This, certainly, will show a very considerable decrease. The price level of cotton goods is very much lower than it has been for many years. Side by side with that decrease in price, we have to remember that Lancashire's share of the total export trade in cotton piece goods is very much less now than it was in pre-War years. It may be, of course, that this year our volume of trade is going to be greater; it will be; but the values will be less and, compared with pre-War years when we did 73 per cent. of the total export trade in cotton piece goods, we are now only doing something like 57 per cent. The iron and steel trades are prosperous, but their prosperity in the main rests on the orders which have been held up due to the prolonged stoppage, and at the present time they are looking round for orders. Taking generally the position of our export trade, it is unlikely that the surplus of imports over exports will be less than £450,000,000 at the end of this year. From the information at my disposal there seems to be no valid reason for making that assumption of exceptional industrial prosperity this year which is the only justification for the expenditure outlined in the Bill now before the House. I have made no reference to Supplementary Estimates. It must be obvious that we must present Supplementary Estimates in respect of China. I do not wish to be pessimistic. Unemployment, after all, is a fair indication of the country's prosperity, and it is satisfactory to know that at present there are 500,000 more people employed than 12 months ago—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—well, 500,000 people less on the register. That is a very satisfactory state of affairs compared with last year, but we must not forget that unemployment is very unevenly distributed at present. There is less unemployment in what may be considered as sheltered industries, while the main exporting trades, on which prosperity must fundamentally rest, are still in a very bad condition. In this connection, one hon. Member above the Gangway made a very interesting speech, in which he pointed out what might possibly occur in future years in respect to tariffs. We have to consider the possibility, not only of tariffs being put up against us by foreign countries, but of their being put

  1493
  against our foreign trade by our own colonies, and that matter should not be overlooked.
  In spite of all, British trade certainly does retain a great deal of its resiliency. It is not possible to suggest that British industry is down and out; it is a long way from that. Neither is it true that our power to compete has gone; but certainly it is being vitiated. My point is that industry requires assistance; it requires nursing. Indeed, it may be said to require a little pampering. The cutting wind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's estimated expenditure might be a bracing tonic if industry were in a robust condition. In my view, industry in this country is convalescent and requires a stimulant of quite a different character. The Chancellor of the Exchequer began with the best possible intentions. He has been faced by difficulties, all of them not of his own making, by demands from various Departments, and by a situation of great difficulty, Urgent as these demands from the many Departments may be, there is no demand so urgent and no request of such importance as that of industry for attention and relief. I take the opportunity of reminding the House of the Election manifesto of the Prime Minister. He said:
  "The burden of taxation weighs heavily upon industry and trade, diminishes real wages, and, in a variety of ways, adds to the cost of living. To assist in relieving the community of this burden the most rigid economy is essential."
  That statement is no less true to-day than it was then. I shall vote for the Second Reading of this Bill because I believe it to be a Bill which, by fortuitous methods of very great skill meets a very difficult situation, but I shall do so in the hope that during the course of the year we shall have very considerable economies.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: The hon. Member who has just sat down, in the course of a very interesting speech, said the finance disclosed in this Bill must be considered in relation to the events of the year through which we have passed. The right hon. Gentleman's excuse was the general strike and the coal stoppage, and therefore he was justified in the means he adopted to make both ends meet in the Budget. The Bill is to be considered
  1494
  not only in relation to the events of this year, but also in relation to the years preceding and to the Budgets that preceded this, and in relation to what may follow. This House is very rich in financial authority outside the Government. There is the hon. Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), the right. hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ripon' (Major Hills) and the hon. Member beside him, who I thought was going to volunteer to underwrite the loan suggested by the hon. Member for Darwen (Sir F. Sanderson), and of course there is the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams). I should like to direct the attention of some of these financial authorities to one or two features of this and other Budgets of the right hon. Gentleman. A matter was raised from these benches earlier in the day to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made certain replies with regard to which I should like to put one or two questions to him. I am quite aware that a detailed discussion on any of the points we are considering would be more properly reserved for Committee, but the right hon. Gentleman's colleague, in making a reference to the Road Fund and what is called the raid on the Road Fund, said he was perfectly sure the Government would have the support of those who pay the licence duties that make up the Road Fund because they would rather the money were directed to the general purposes of the State than that their shoulders should be burdened by further taxation. That may be the view of the Government, but those representative bodies, the Automobile Association and others which represent the users of motor cars, have only in the last day or two passed very emphatic resolutions against what the right hon. Gentleman is doing. He said on the Report stage of the Budget Resolutions:
  "I am not claiming for one moment that the Road Fund will not be poorer by £12,000,000 or that every scheme put forward by advocates of rapid road development will have as good a chance. We shall finance with the credit of the State every undertaking and commitment into which we have actually entered."
  Does the right hon. Gentleman adhere to that statement, because I understand that on the 31st March the commitments of the Road Fund amounted to £30,000,000 One result of the financial

  1495
  policy he is pursuing, and his action with regard to the Road Fund, is definitely to curtail what he himself in an interjection a few minutes ago called productive expenditure. I do not know whether I am right in assuming that about the time of the Budget statement last year the control of the Treasury over the Road Fund became very much closer than it had been before, when the Minister of Transport had practically a free hand, and now has become closer still. I should like to ask whether it is true or not that what is called the Western Avenue, one of the large roads which have been constructed, has definitely been held up by the action of the Treasury. That is only one of many things, and the result is that road development and the benefit of the motor trade all over the country has been held up and thwarted by the action of the Government in taking over the reserve of the Road Fund.
  In listening a few minutes ago to the speech of the hon. Member for Darwen, as he developed his argument it seemed to me it was a pity the right hon. Gentleman did not pay a little more attention to what he was saying. I am not talking now about the £1,000,000,000 loan, but about the argument the hon. Member developed with regard to the policy of Protection. The right hon. Gentleman's colleagues, like the hon. Member for Darwen, have convictions on the question of Protection. They believe in a certain policy. The right hon. Gentleman himself has what perhaps I may call previous convictions on the same thing, and we have never yet had from him a full statement with regard to his views on the Protectionist policy of the Government. While sitting here I have been trying to recall some of the reasons he has given for introducing these protective taxes. On one occasion he used figures to show that the imports that were subject to tariffs were a very small percentage of our total imports. He will recall a very well-known story, and the excuse that it was only a little one. On another occasion he used the old argument about luxury taxes. On another occasion his excuse for putting on protective duties was that at some time in the past hon. Members on these benches had done the same. This year,
  1496
  with regard to the tyre taxes, he introduced a new word. His excuse was that he was imposing the new tax in the interests of symmetry. Does he realise that slowly and steadily this Government has begun by introducing what is in effect a general tariff and has gradually widened the incidence of that tariff? I shall be interested, in view of the previous beliefs of the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, to hear what he has to say.
  When the hon. Member for Darwen was speaking it seemed to me that here we have a typical case of what may happen if the Protection policy is pursued. The hon. Member was arguing for a tariff on the industry in which he is interested from the point of view of his constituents. He compared that with another tariff on an industry in which he was not interested from the point of view of his constituents and he was pointing out the tyre industry, on the confession of the chairman of the biggest company in this country, was doing better than it had ever done before, or at any rate was so fully occupied that they could not fill the orders they were receiving at the very moment the right hon. Gentleman was giving them a tariff. He was then putting forward the plea that if this were done for those who were prosperous, why should it not be done for those who were less prosperous? I would like to know if the right, hon. Gentleman joins with the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) on the Budget Resolutions Debate and the right hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley), who agree that the test of whether our trade is doing well or badly is the test of the amount of goods imported into this country. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give us some little enlightenment as to his views on that.
  I am not going into the details of the latest safeguarding tariffs, but I am going to draw the attention of the House to the very important point made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) on the proceedings of the Committee which dealt with the application of a tariff on chinaware. We were told two years ago, when the Government changed their plan with regard to the introduction of a protective tariff, that instead of having a Safeguarding Bill we would have a series of Bills after a, series of inquiries. We were told that that was done in order

  1497
  that the House of Commons should maintain its control over the financial arrangements of the country. I see the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) agrees. Let me put this to the hon. Member and to the right hon. Gentleman. Is it right, or is it possible, for this House to maintain its control of tariffs, and to give a considered opinion upon the question as to whether there should be or should not be a tax on a particular product, when we get a report from a Committee of three, one, at least, of whom is an avowed leader in an extreme Protectionist policy, and when we are not given the evidence on which that conclusion is based. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman himself will admit the parallel, but it seems to me that a close parallel will be this. This House is, in effect, the jury. If in a Court of Law, a case were decided by a jury after listening to the speeches of counsel on each side, and to the summing up of the Judge but without hearing the evidence, then that would be a perfect parallel to the procedure which the Government not only invite this House to adopt but insist that this House should adopt. The hon. Member who has just spoken has dealt with the question of expenditure. I have made a small calculation and I have come to the conclusion—my figures are different from his—that the total increase in expenditure in three years is £54,000,000. That is an average increase of £18,000,000 per annum.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Does the hon. Gentleman include the increase of the Sinking Fund?
  Mr. CRAWFURD: Oh, no; the total estimated expenditure for the year. At any rate, let me give the figures. In 1924 the expenditure was £788,000,000, then £795,000,000, then £826,000,000, and then £842,000,000. That gives a total increase of £54,000,000.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: But I asked the hon. Gentleman whether he included the increase of the Sinking Fund.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: That was the total expenditure of the country.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Gentleman must make allowances for increase of payments to the Sinking Fund during that period.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: But Sinking Fund or not, it is still expenditure.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: No, the Sinking Fund is the highest form of economy.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: I realise that, just as other forms of expenditure are called the highest form of economy, and I am going to deal with that before I sit down. For instance, armaments are sometimes called the highest form of economy. That argument is used in the case of armaments. It has been used by the right hon. Gentleman. It is used by other people in the case of health expenditure, or education expenditure, or expenditure on social services of different kinds. The fact remains that we have this increase of expenditure. I will deal in a moment with the way in which the expenditure is used. The right hon. Gentleman places us at a disadvantage. It is difficult to criticise him, because we all like him. Even his friends when they are criticising him use words such as "ingenuity." They admire the ingenuity with which the right hon. Gentleman gets out of a difficulty. When everybody were saying, "He is in rather a difficulty this year," the right hon. Gentleman said "Not at all! Here is the brewers' credit. I will knock a month off their credit. That will mean £5,000,000." Then came last year, and the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) in the Sunday Press thundered against the right hon. Gentleman, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer laughed up his sleeve the whole time. Then he came down to the House and, keeping the tit-bit until the last moment, he suddenly sprung the surprise upon the House in the form of Schedule "A" and, in effect, he turned to the right hon. Member for Colne Valley and said, "You never thought of that."
  It is difficult to criticise the right hon. Gentleman, because not only is he ingenious in his devices but he charms us with the way in which he presents those devices to the House. I would like to say, without the slightest desire to detract from the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) or the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones), that there is not the slightest doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer provides the best turn that this House can give, when he gets up. But I think £350,000 a week is a very high

  1499
  price to pay for the right hon. Gentleman. Hon. Members will find that the characteristic of the finance of this Government has been a steadily rising expenditure, a steady maintenance of a high level of debt, a steady drift into the policy of Protection, and the maintenance at a high level of the expenditure upon armaments. In order to do that, in order to provide for these things, without increasing the taxation, the right hon. Gentleman has gradually dipped into every single resource we have, into the medical insurance fund, the unemployment insurance fund, the soldiers' and sailors' fund, the block grant for education, so that the burden will be thrown upon the local authorities, then the credit to the brewers, then Schedule "A," then the Road Fund. Every single thing on which he could put his hand he has taken.
  I suppose that before very long we shall be paying our Income Tax in advance and our Super-tax in advance. Hon. Members opposite profess to believe that after the next General Election they will again be on that side of the House. If they are, and if the present Prime Minister retains his health and strength, as we all hope he will, the right hon. Gentleman will still have to be content with the comparatively modest office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. Do hon. Members opposite realise what that will imply? It will mean seven more Budgets from the right hon. Gentleman. He will come down to this House with a deficit of some £70,000,000 or £80,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley will make a speech, and the right hon. Gentleman will say that he has thought of something quite new—Death Duties are to be paid at birth. That is the kind of finance to which the right hon. Gentleman has brought us. He is gradually sapping the resources of the country, and for these reasons I shall vote against the Bill.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: It has been said that "Happy is the nation that has no history," and I think it may also be said that happy is the Department whose Debates are dull in the pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT. At any rate, I have nothing of which to complain in the course of to-day's discussion, because although there is talk about peace in industry,
  1500
  the results of which are perhaps disappointing, there is at any rate something like peace in the wide region of finance. I have never known the consideration of a Finance Bill where there has been a more general consensus of opinion in favour of the proposals laid down by the Government, and if I have no fault to find with the temper of the House or the conduct of the Debate by any party in it, neither can I quarrel with the hon. Member who has just addressed the House with such good humour. The hon. Member has been very courteous in his references to me; and if I had to receive the lash of censure it could hardly have been, laid on with a more gentle hand or regulated by a more tender heart. Nevertheless, in spite of the amiable way in which the criticisms have been delivered, I will venture to reply to them.
  The hon. Member touched on the subject of Protection, and he looked wistfully at a picture of some great Protectionist policy adopted by the Conservative party in opposition to which he and his friends think they might regain their old and honourable pre-eminence in the State. I am not able to oblige him there. We have held very strictly during our tenure of office to the admittedly experimental and compromise position which constituted the platform on which the last election was fought. I challenge any fair-minded man, whether he sits in this House or whether he speaks outside of it, to say, broadly speaking, that the fiscal policy of His Majesty's Government during the last few years has not corresponded justly and fairly with the electoral declaration made by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Conservative party at the last election.
  My hon. Friend spoke about expenditure and the terrible growth of expenditure. According to the hon. Member it is a lamentable fact that the expenditure of the country has grown by £54,000,000 during the operations of the present administration.
  He forgot to mention, and I have to remind him of the fact, that £20,000,000 of this £54,000,000 is accounted for by the increase in the Sinking Fund from the level of £45,000,000 at which it stood in the days of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) to the level of £65,000,000 at which it

  1501
  stands in this present year of grace. We are already very nearly on common ground about the Sinking Fund. Everybody thinks it ought to be maintained and nobody is going to argue that the paying-off of debt on an increasing scale, if that should be possible, can have any result other than benefit to the country. It is a very fine thing that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley and those who support him should have definitely cast in their lot with us in the policy of strict debt repayment. Even the hon. Gentleman who gave us a gay and jaunty exhibition in the higher flights of subversive finance, really accepted the general basis of the Colwyn Report in advocating the permanent maintenance of a Sinking Fund.
  A sum of £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 of the increased expenditure is accounted for by the normal and healthy growth of the Post Office, and the Road Fund. I am quite sure if I attempted to curtail arbitrarily the efforts of the Post Office, to meet ever-growing commercial demands and renewed commercial demands, I should be very severely criticised not only on the ground of denying remunerative employment to the Department, but also of hampering the higher economic development of this island. As to the Bead Fund, which has increased by £8,000,000 or £9,000,000, the burden of the complaint made by the hon. Member opposite is that we did not allow expenditure under this head to increase much more. But for the fact that I have been guilty of what are vulgarly called raids—an expression which I dislike very much—but for the fact that I indulged in this form of establishing financial equilibrium, the hon. Gentleman would have been entitled to attack me much more severely on the growth of expenditure, and he would have shown that expenditure on the Road Fund alone had grown, not by £9,000,000, but by £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 under the lax administration of the present Government. Taking it at £15,000,000 for the Road Fund and the Post Office, and £20,000,000 for the Sinking Fund, that is £35,000,000.
  As for the rest, the normal growth of the old age pensions, which are the glory of the pre-War Liberal party, account for a part. Unhappily in those days, we did not sufficiently investigate the long future of the population statistics. Those
  1502
  who were concerned in establishing the original scheme of non-contributory old age pensions never realised that a great expansion in pensions would begin 70 years after the great expansion of the population in mid-Victorian times. It came upon us as a startling surprise when we began to examine the upward tendency of expenditure. There is also the automatic growth of civil service and naval and military pensions. A sum of £8,000,000 or £9,000,000 is due to these two heads and £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 is due to a purely book-keeping transaction, which does not enter into the burden of profit or loss. Teachers' pensions appear on both sides of the account, on the one side there is revenue from contributions, and on the other there is the expenditure on the actual pensions. Thus I have accounted, on the spur of the moment but not without very long previous consideration, for practically the whole of the increase which has taken place in expenditure during the tenure of office of the present Government.
  A certain critical air was noticeable when the hon. Member spoke on the treatment of Schedule A, and he deviated, I regret to say, into the facetious when he spoke of Death Duties being collected at birth. I stand on very good ground in respect of the manner in which Schedule A has been treated, very good ground indeed, and ground which, I am sure, the hon. Gentleman will treat with the utmost respect, for to him it should be holy ground. I have, since introducing the Budget, been studying the precedents. Precedents are very valuable as means of justifying action you have already decided to take, and in this case I base myself on no less an authority than that of Mr. Gladstone himself. What did Mr. Gladstone say in 1860? Mr. Gladstone found himself faced with a position in regard to the Income Tax when the law said it ought to be paid quarterly, but, through lack of administrative efficiency or from one cause or another, it had fallen into a habit of being paid half-yearly. This valuable state of affairs attracted Mr. Gladstone's eagle eye, and he saw that if he braced up the collection of this tax, he would get three quarters tax in the first half-year and in a whole year five quarters. In the Budget of 1860 he secured a sum of no less than

  1503
  £2,250,000, an immense figure for those days, equivalent at least, in proportion, to the sum which I have obtained by the treatment which has been considered appropriate to Schedule A this year. No less than £2,250,000 was obtained by Mr. Gladstone in regard to a tax of which the rates were only then 10d. and 7d.
  But that is not all. What said Mr. Robert Lowe in 1869? Mr. Robert Lowe dealt with the same proposition substantially. He found that the first and second quarters' tax was collected in October, the third in January, and the fourth in the following year, and he introduced the collection of the whole year's tax in one instalment, payable on 1st January. He thus secured five quarters' tax in the year of change, a quarter of the old and the whole of the new, and his special gains on this account were estimated at £1,800,000 on a 6d. rate of tax. He used this fortuitous and adventitious advantage, not, as I have done, with strict financial integrity, for the benefit of the Sinking Fund, but for the mere cheap enjoyment of reducing the Income Tax from a 6d. to a 5d. rate. There is another very remarkable fact about this, which I have been much interested to discover since the Budget was introduced. Mr. Lowe seems to have been walking over my footsteps before I had trodden them, because he said, trying to explain what had occurred for the satisfaction of a very strict House in those days:
  "And so each year will take money from its successor, and this process may go on till the end of time, although how it will be settled when the world comes to an end I am at a loss to know."
  It was unconscious anticipatory plagiarism. I have always been very much struck by the advantage enjoyed by people who lived at an earlier period of the world than one's own. They had the first opportunity of saying the right thing. Over and over again it has happened to me to think of something which I thought was worth saying, only to find that it had been already exploited, and very often spoiled, before I had an opportunity of saying it.
  The hon. Member for the Keighley Division (Mr. Lees-Smith), who opened the Debate on behalf of the official
  1504
  Opposition, treated us to some extremely controversial arguments in favour of the Minority Report of the Colwyn Committee, to which he was, no doubt, an active contributor. The hon. Gentleman explained that originally he had been very much in favour of the Capital Levy, but that owing to the wickedness of the banks he had thought it better to change the policy from a Capital Levy to a Surtax of 2s. in the £ upon invested income. The hon. Gentleman made a severe attack upon the City of London and the bankers in this connection. He said, "We had to abandon the Capital Levy because it was perfectly clear that the capitalist supporters of the Tory party would never give such a scheme a fair chance. They would make financial difficulties, and, consequently, it never could be carried through without great disadvantage." Consequently, they abandoned the scheme of the Capital Levy. I think if the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) were here to-night he would say that when he was in office as Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Socialist Government he got very fair treatment from the City of London. He got treatment from the City of London without the slightest regard to anything but the merits of his finance, without any question of party feeling or interest. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was sound finance."] Sound finance —I say so. But if a Chancellor of the Exchequer or a Government were to announce the Capital Levy on a vast scale, consequences would follow. There would be a great loss of confidence in the City, and no doubt a very great tremor would pass over the whole of our economic and financial organisation.
  The hon. Gentleman is very angry at that. He seems to think it ought to be stigmatised as a crime. It is astonishing to see how rapidly the Socialists multiply the number of crimes, and the number of crimes which are to merit the death penalty. It is considered a crime to have a certain want of confidence—because that is all that would happen: a want of confidence would be felt and there would be a very considerable derangement of our finances. That is to be a crime—perhaps an indictable offence. It is a novelty to say that want of confidence is a crime. [Interruption.] The hon. Member who this afternoon displayed his enthusiasm

  1505
  for a capital levy, now proposes that we should have a surtax of 2s. in the £on investment income. He drew a distinction between earned and unearned income. The finance of this country draws a considerable distinction between the two, and so far as this Government is concerned, we have emphasised the reliefs which are given to the lower ranges of earned income as against investment income, thus rectifying some grievances which the Government which preceded us had not noticed. But obviously there are limits to this kind of thing, and you cannot simply proceed on the basis that all earned income should be cherished and is respectable, and all investment income which is the fruit of savings should be, in some way or other, stigmatised. I would like to warn hon. Gentleman opposite of the danger to British finance of that policy. I know very well that there are a number of thinkers who consider that investment income ought to be appropriated by the State, but what has hitherto always restrained the Government in altering the balance between earned and unearned income is the danger of striking at savings which are vital, and which build up the capital fund of the nation. Clearly this remains the greatest and most fruitful source available for the development of enterprise and industry and for the payment of the wages of the people. Hon. Members should not sneer at investments abroad, because it has been out of the fruits of investments abroad and the taxes received upon them that immense contributions have been provided for the upkeep of the population who are not at work. If you strike at savings you at once propagate the idea of "Let us eat, drink and be merry, for to-morrow we die." That is at once the inspiration and the mortal disease by which the Socialist philosophy is affected.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) spoke in terms of some complaint of the great complication of some of the Clauses of this Bill in regard to the Income Tax. We have done our best to introduce simplification, although I admit that simplification moves through mysterious channels to its goal in this process. I have tried my best, and I have by no means abandoned the struggle to introduce some greater simplicity into the language of our Income Tax. The
  1506
  art of drafting has become highly technical, and we are setting up a committee which we hope will introduce a much simpler mode of expression—but after some time. In the art of drafting there seems to be a complete disdain of the full stop, and even the humble colon is an object to be avoided. It has been pointed out to me by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that one of our Clauses contains a single sentence in which there are more than 300 words. However, I do not think that when these Clauses come to be discussed they will be found to take up so much of our time as would appear from their printed appearance. The proposals are capable of a very simple epitomisation, and I am sure that the legal language in which they are expressed accurately fulfils the intentions of the Government which are, on the whole, generally approved by the House.
  Then we have had some interesting speeches on the subject of the Clauses dealing with one-man companies and the legal avoidance of the Super-tax. I should like to make it quite clear to the House that we have no desire or intention to disturb or derange the broad structure of company law and the practice of limited liability companies in this country. The object of our legislation is to prevent the avoidance of Super-tax by transactions and arrangements which are outside the course of legitimate trade. The man who forms a company to buy his business from himself, the man who borrows from, his own company instead of taking dividends, the man who leaves all his profits in the business, whether needed for development or not—these are the cases to which we are bound to invite the attention of Parliament. The old Section 21 of the Act of 1922 can only be applied if the company has not distributed a reasonable part of its income, and in considering this question regard has to be paid—and I should like to point this out—not only to the current requirements of the business, but also to such other requirements as may be necessary or advisable for the maintenance or development of that business. All that is secured, and the present Bill takes nothing away from that safeguard except in so far as it deals with payment out of profits for the acquisition of the

  1507
  property which the company is formed to acquire. We had in mind the case of the man who sells his own business to himself and is paid for it by debentures over a series of years, which debentures are, of course, immune from taxation, although he is at one and the same time the recipient of the debentures and the controller of the company and arranges the business and makes the payments. All these matters must be discussed in Committee very carefully, but I say categorically that what we are aiming at are cases where the object is the evasion of taxes legitimately due to the State, and we are anxious to frame our language in such a way as to avoid any serious disturbance to the general, active, flexible processes of limited liability companies which have played, and are playing, an immense part in the whole economy of the nation. It ought to be possible to safeguard the revenue against fictitious practices without in any way obstructing the progress of legitimate and ordinary business.
  I end where I began, by expressing my gratitude to the House for the really enthusiastic manner in which they have received the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. We have not put our case too high. I have not pretended for a moment that this Budget confers any benefits on any class. It is certainly not a class Budget. An hon. Gentleman suggested that it was a class Budget. It will take more than his dialectics to prove that a Budget which raises £30,000,000 or £40,000,000 of revenue from the taxation of motor ears, from the brewers' profits and from the landlords' tax, is a Budget which can be stigmatised by the abusive term of "Class Budget." No, it is not a class Budget, either in the penalties which it inflicts or in any advantages which it bestows. It is an attempt to enable the country to come through an extremely difficult period—a period which, we believe, is temporary, and the causes of which all know too well. But we have every reason to believe that next year the Revenue will recover. To what extent I do not say, but it is quite clear that an Income Tax based on a year in which the whole population has been at work—or, at any rate, with diminishing unemployment—is bound to produce a better result than the figures which are based on the lament-
  1508
  able experiences of last year. Therefore, we feel it right to try, by the use of expedients for which I have shown there are most respectable precedents as well as extremely good modern reasons, to come round this difficult corner, and the Budget has been accepted by the country and by all parties in the country, and by critics of all kinds in the country, from that point of view. It is not that it is in every way a kind of model which you would set up as a sealed pattern which all future Budgets should imitate, but, in the very difficult circumstances of the time in which we are, it is an harmonious and appropriate manner of dealing with our complicated affairs.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS Mr. H. WILLIAMS rose——
  HON. MEMBERS: Divide!
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is not necessary that this Debate should stop at Eleven o'Clock, if other hon. Members desire to address the House.
  Mr. WILLIAMS Mr. WILLIAMS rose——
  HON. MEMBERS: Divide!
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I was trying to take the opportunity of saying a few words on this subject, and I imagine that my doing so will last as long as the endurance of those who are seeking to prevent me from giving expression to that which I intend to say. I remember, in 1922, taking part in a debate on the Capital Levy with my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), and in the course of that debate I expressed the view that the Capital Levy was as dead as mutton. When the party of which my hon. Friend is a member came into office, they found themselves saddled with that unpleasant legacy, and, not knowing what to do, they appointed a Committee, known as the Colwyn Committee, with the object of burying the Capital Levy. Not only did they bury it, but I gather from the speech made by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith), which I did not have the opportunity of listening to, that not only did they bury it, but he has erected a tombstone over it. I think they were wise to inter the Capital Levy in the Committee, which is very often the most effective way of doing such a thing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has pointed out that, after all, savings

  1509
  are the basis of the capital of the nation, and, of course, anyone who has made even a cursory examination of the subject knows that that is the case. Perhaps the greatest social service that a rich man can render is to save money.
  Mr. ROY BIRD: On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to read a newspaper in the House?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The reading of a newspaper is not in order.
  Mr. BALFOUR: On a point of Order. Is it not a well-recognised fact in this House that this Parliamentary form of intervention of calling "Divide" is very often acceded to by an hon. Member when it is expressed by all parties in the House but not when it is expressed by only one party in the House?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would never allow cries of "Divide" to prevent debate if there has not been a considerable debate on the question before the House; but it is an old Parliamentary custom that Members can express themselves in this way.
  Mr. BALFOUR: That is certainly the case where the cry "Divide" comes from the general sense of the House, but not, as in this case, entirely from one party in the House and to prevent one hon. Member from continuing the Debate.
  Mr. SPEAKER: My recollection is that I have often heard the parties in turn do so.
  Commander WILLIAMS: May I inquire if it is in order for hon. Members who are standing in the Gangways to take part in shouting "divide"?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members who are standing in the Gangways ought not to take part.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS Mr. H. WILLIAMS rose——
  HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"
  Captain CROOKSHANK: Is it in order when a discussion is taking place on the Finance Bill, which only starts at 4.30, and when we have had only six hours debate upon it for the Opposition to interrupt——
  HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"
  Mr. THURTLE: I wish to ask you, Sir, whether, in the light of Parliamentary history it lies in the mouths of members of the Conservative party to teach the Labour party Parliamentary deportment?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I should he sorry to have to discriminate.
  Mr. NAYLOR: May I ask your ruling Sir, whether the hon. Member for Reading is in order in saying the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not sufficiently made out his case?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I should say that is a very pertinent observation.
  Mr. BLUNDELL: Is it in order for the hon. Member opposite to attribute to the hon. Member for Reading words which he cannot possibly have heard?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member no doubt has better hearing than I have.
  Captain HOPE: As a comparatively new Member, may I ask your advice, Sir, as to what is the correct form of obstruction on these occasions? I have never attended one before. Do the Opposition say "Divide" or "Vide"? "Divide" is obviously a good English word. "Vide," as far as I know, is not to be found in the English dictionary.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member had better wait until he has been here a little longer.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: We have every reason to believe that during the present year the situation generally will improve, and that when my right hon. Friend presents his Budget statement he will reasonably be able to anticipate a far larger yield from his direct taxation. [Interruption.]
  Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: On a point of Order. May I ask you, Sir, is it not the fact that in the Debate a year ago the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) submitted, I think, to you that it was undesirable that the Debate should come to a conclusion at 11 o'clock, and may I ask whether the financial considerations of this country are less serious to-day than they were at this time last year?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of Order.
  Mr. ROSSLYN MITCHELL Mr. ROSSLYN MITCHELL rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: May I venture, by the leave of the House, to suggest a solution of our difficulties? The hon. Gentleman has waited a long time to make his speech [Interruption.] I myself, by speaking in front of him, impaired his opportunity. May I now suggest that we should give him five minutes—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!" and
  another HON. MEMBER: "Not one!"]—by the Clock, and then take the Division. [Interruption.]
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I was saying, at the point when I last sat down, that this matter was referred to by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley), who remarked that unemployment was now some half million less than it was a year ago, and he pointed out that it was for that reason the yield of our taxation might reasonably be expected to be greater than it was last year.
  I would like to point out that the real improvement is something far greater than was indicated by the Member for Stockport. A year ago there were over a million miners out of work who are in work to-day, and if you add all these things together, the fact of the matter is that there are about 1,750,000 more workers usefully engaged in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is justified in assuming that next year the yield in direct taxation will expand—[Interruption]. I should like to make some reference to the speech made by the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. C. Grenfell) who dealt with the question of the floating debt and the number of Treasury bills in circulation. He urged upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the necessity of—[Interruption.]
  Mr. LOOKER: On a point of Order. For my information, Mr. Speaker, can you tell me what sort of noises are allowed, and to what extent interruption can be carried on?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that I cannot give lessons on decorum at this time.
  Mr. WARD LAW-MILNE: Is it not the case, Mr. Speaker, that two illustrious predecessors of your good self have given decisions in this House, one of which was to the effect that it is the business of Mr. Speaker to see that every Member has an equal chance of being heard, and the other to the effect that it is not the business of Mr. Speaker to ensure that a Member shall be heard. If I am right in my history of the precedents given from the Chair, will you give a decision now as to what should be the custom of the House in regard to the right of a Member to be heard?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has given a quotation from one of my predecessors which seems to me full of wisdom. I can usefully add nothing to it.
  Commander WILLIAMS Commander WILLIAMS rose——
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Let the hon. Member for Reading complete his peroration.
  Commander WILLIAMS: Can the hon. Member for Reading move up this way so that the rest of us may hear him?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member is approaching the end of his speech.
  Mr. VARLEY: Is it in order for the hon. Member to address the House in such dulcet tones that he cannot be heard?
  Sir BASIL PETO: On a point of Order. May I call attention to the fact that you recently ruled, Mr. Speaker, that hon. Members on the other side were not entitled to stand in the Gangway and interrupt? May I now call your attention to the fact that seven or eight hon. Members are disregarding your ruling?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I looked once or twice to the left, but I do not know to which hon. Members reference is made. After my remarks the interruptions did not continue.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMS: I want to say a word or two on the main question raised by the hon. Member for the City of London. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]

  1513
  For the last five or six years the bank rate has fluctuated in a marked degree, and, frankly, I can see no financial advantage which can be gained—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—by the transference which has been suggested during
  the course of the Debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 287; Noes, 110.

  Division No. 142.]

  AYES.

  [11.27 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Ilffe, Sir Edward M.

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Curzon, Captain viscount

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Albery, Irving James

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd. Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. cathbert

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Dixey, A. C.

  Kidd, J. (Linilthgow)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Drewe, C.

  Kindersley, Major Guy M.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Ellis, R. G.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Lamb, J. Q

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Bennett, A. J.

  Flelden, E. B.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Finburgh, S.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Bethel, A.

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Forestler-Walker, Sir L.

  Lougher, Lewis

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Forrest, W.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Lumley, L. R.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Maclntyre, Ian

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  McLean, Major A.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Gates, Percy

  Macnaghten, Hon, Sir Malcolm

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Brass, Captain W.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Goff, Sir Park

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Grace, John

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Grattan-Doyte, Sir N.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w.E)

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Meller, R. J.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Merriman, F. B.

  Buchan, John

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Buckingham. Sir H.

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Burman, J. B.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hanbury, C.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Murchison, Sir Kenneth

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Harland, A.

  Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Neville, R. J.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Nicholson, O (Westminster)

  Christie, J. A.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Oakley, T.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hills, Major John Waller

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Hilton, Cecil

  Penny, Frederick George

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Holt, Capt. H. P.

  Perring, Sir William George

  Cope, Major William

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Couper, J. B.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Courtauid, Major J. S.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Plicher, G.

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

  Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Preston, William

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Radford, E. A.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Raine, W.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Ramsden, E.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisie)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Smithers, Waldron

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Wells, S. R.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Remer, J. R.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairympie

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Fllnt)

  Storry-Deans, R.

  Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Ropner, Major L.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Sugden, sir Wilfrid

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Rye, F. G.

  Tasker, R. Inigo.

  Withers, John James

  Salmon, Major I.

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Tinne, J. A.

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Sandon, Lord

  Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

  Wragg, Herbert

  Savery, S. S.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

  Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

  Waddington, R.

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Colonel Gibbs.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Sexton, James

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hirst, G. H.

  Simon, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

  Barnes, A.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Snell, Harry

  Barr, J.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Batey, Joseph

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Stamford. T. W.

  Broad, F. A.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Bromley, J.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Strauss, E. A.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Sullivan, Joseph

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Kennedy, T.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Buchanan, G.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Taylor, R. A.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Clowes, S.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Lawson, John James

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lee, F.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lunn, William

  Viant, S. P.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Watson. W. M. (Dunfermilne)

  Dennison, R.

  Murnin, H.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Duncan, C.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Fenby, T. D.

  Palin, John Henry

  Welsh, J. C.

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Paling, W.

  Whiteley, W.

  Gillett, George M.

  Parkinson, John Allan (Wigan)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Greenall, T.

  Potts, John S.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Riley, Ben

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Ritson, J.

  Windsor, Walter

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Hardie, George D.

  Rose, Frank H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Harney, E. A.

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Hayes.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time" put, and agreed to.

  POST OFFICE (SITES) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  1516
  The sole object of this Bill is to allow the Post Office to acquire certain sites required for telephone exchanges and post offices at a reasonable price. If the Post Office were not a Government Department, this would be a private Bill, but, as it is a Government Department, it has to be taken in Government time. It follows the same procedure as with a private Bill. If the House grants it a Second Reading, the Bill will go to a Select Committee, where the merits of

  1517
  each particular site will be investigated and any opponents of the Bill, if there are any, will have an opportunity of being heard. I, therefore, do not propose to trouble the House with the details of the particular sites which the Postmaster-General is anxious to acquire. The only question really before the House on the Second Reading is the question of principle, which is whether the Postmaster-General is entitled to acquire compulsorily sites which are required in the national interest, at a fair price, if he is able to make out a case before the Select Committee for each particular site. That is a question which has invariably been answered in the past in the affirmative by the Conservative and Liberal parties, and I hope that hon. Members opposite will also be able to give that principle their support.
  Mr. AMMON: There will be no opposition, I imagine, on this side to giving a Second Reading to this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] We, like other hon. Members, are desirous of seeing the Government carry forward the necessary work in this connection, but there are one or two questions which, perhaps, the Noble Lord might answer. No provision is made in the Bill for finance, which, I gather, is due to the fact that the Post Office pays out of revenue, and, therefore, it is not necessary to have any financial Clauses in the Bill. Another point is, what are the purposes for which these sites are desired, and is the land already acquired; or are we being asked to give the Post Office, as it were, a blank cheque to obtain sites in the localities mentioned? I know there are one or two places indicated, such as Free Lane at Leicester and the closing of certain passages in the City of London; but, in regard to Fulham, Blackpool and other places there is no mention of any land being in hand. I may be wrong in this, but if the land is not already in the possession of the Post Office, it looks as though we may be doing something which will drive up the price of the land against the Post Office. My only other point is, what is the meaning of Clause 2? Here is one of the difficulties which arise out of legislation by reference. It would appear that it is proposed to repeal certain Sections which give the Post Office rights withheld from other persons under the Act of 1845. If we can have answers
  1518
  to these questions I think one can say that the Bill will be unanimously and speedily agreed to.
  Mr. STEPHEN: At Question Time the Prime Minister told us that this was an agreed measure, and when there was some question as to that statement he added that it was a Bill which would provide a lot of employment. Evidently the Prime Minister thought that by simply throwing off that expression "The Bill will provide a lot of employment," he would induce hon. Members on this side of the House to say "Is that so, Mr. Prime Minister? Oh, well we will hurry up and let it through." We have had many statements from the Prime Minister, and it is not enough for him to say: "The Bill will provide employment; therefore you need not examine it," I notice that the Bill was ordered to be printed on 24th March, and so I think the plea of fearful hurry as a reason for our not examining the Bill, goes by the board. I have looked into the Bill and there are certain questions I wish to ask the Noble Lord who is in charge of it to-night. Sub-section (2) of Clause I states that
  "a person dealing with the Postmaster-General in respect of any of the said lands or rights in or over them shall not be bound or entitled to inquire whether the consent of the Treasury has been given to that dealing,"
  What is the purpose of that? That may be a small point; but in Sub-section (3) there is a much more important question to which I should like an answer. It states that
  "The power to purchase lands compulsorily under this Act shall cease on the thirty-first day of December nineteen hundred and thirty."
  I want to know what is the purpose of that Sub-section? It would appear that the Post Office has certain sites in view in connection with the development of Post Office work and it would also appear that by carrying out this work, according to the statement made by the Prime Minister, there would be a certain amount of employment provided. I wonder whether this Sub-section is a proviso which means that the Post Office may or may not become active in regard to the provision of employment. Why is there this suggestion with regard to 31st December, 1930? Are we to take it that these sites may not be acquired at all, and that the Post Office authorities may

  1519
  change their mind with regard to the necessity for these sites, or is there to be a sort of roving commission in connection with this Department?
  I wish to raise another point in reference to the sites in question. It would appear that on some of those sites there are various buildings in regard to which I would like a little information. I want to know if any of these buildings consist of houses, and if there are houses on those sites I would like the Assistant Postmaster-General to tell us whether any provision has been made to accommodate the people who may be dispossessed. I understand that there is a certain amount of building to be done, and I take it that it is by means of this building that there is going to be found a certain amount of employment. I would like to know whether the building which may take place is to be done by private enterprise, or will it be carried out by the Department employing direct labour? If it is to be carried out by private enterprise, will that mean that so many employés are going to be taken off the building of houses in order to carry out the new building operations suggested by this Measure? I would like an answer to those points.
  I notice with regard to the second Clause that the procedure followed is the same as under the Lands Clauses Act, 1845. I have been wondering whether the Government consider that at this time of day, in connection with a matter of this kind, its purpose can be best achieved by bringing into operation a Statute as old as that of 1845. Would it not have been a much simpler matter for the Postmaster-General to have come to this House for powers that would have enabled him to carry through this work more efficiently than he can do by the procedure provided under the Lands Clauses Act, 1845? It may be that the legislators of those days were a very gifted set of legislators. With regard to legislation under the Lands Clauses Act, I notice that some of those Clauses are not going to be enforced in this connection. I do not want to carry my opposition as far as moving the rejection of the Bill if I can get some satisfaction on the points which I have raised. I should like to know the total amount of money which the Department has estimated is going to be expended in connec-
  1520
  tion with these sites and buildings. It is the business of the House when this Government department is embarking on this matter, to get this information. I know it has been suggested that the Bill will go to a Select Committee and that anybody who is interested can go there and raise any of the points he desires, but I think the Noble Lord, when he made that statement knew sufficient regarding the procedure in connection with Select Committees to know that that undertaking does not amount to very much, and that it is much more suitable in connection with a thing like this, while the Bill is before us on Second Reading, that we should get some answer with regard to the more general points. I do think the Noble Lord in moving the Second Reading might have given the House some idea of the magnitude of the operations contemplated under the Bill. That is a perfectly reasonable request, and if he can give me satisfaction in regard to that, and in regard to the amount of money to be expended and as to whether there is any house property on the property which it is contemplated taking over, and, if so, whether provision will be made for the housing of the people concerned, I shall have no great difficulty in regard to the Measure.
  Some Members on the Government side, knowing we had said we were going to give some attention to this Bill, have been anxious to find the grounds for our opposition, and have assured us that this is a Socialist Measure. They expressed surprise at the line we were taking, and said that the Government were carrying out Socialism. All I want to say in regard to that is that it is on all fours with what the Prime Minister said, that this was something which would provide employment and that surely hon. Members would do nothing to impede its progress. The best way for hon. Members to help the progress of the Measure is to get information in regard to it, and we shall then be in a position to see that the Postmaster-General carries out the operations as efficiently, thoroughly and quickly as possible. If he shows any signs of the sort of lethargy of other Members of the Government and heads of departments then we will be able to prod him, if we know something more about the Bill than we have got so far. I hope the Noble Lord will give more information, so that instead of going to a Division in connection with the Bill we shall

  1521
  be interested to see the department carrying through work which will make the Post Office more efficient and more able to carry out its duties and responsibilities as a great Socialist experiment.
  Mr. PALING: The Noble Lord in introducing this Bill made a very significant remark. He said that in view of the late hour he was sure that the House would not expect him to say much. In other words, he meant that the House would not expect him to explain the Bill. We object to that kind of procedure under which Bills are brought on at this time of night, and the Minister rides off with the excuse that, because of the lateness of the hour, that is a reason no explanation should be given to the House.
  Viscount WOLMER: The hon. Member misunderstood me. I said I would not go into detailed points, but would only deal with the principle of the Bill.
  12. m.
  Mr. PALING: The House will agree that the hon. Gentleman neither went into principles nor details, because he sat down in about ten seconds. As I said last night on another Bill I am almost certain that if Ministers, even at a late hour, would go to the trouble of explaining a Bill to some extent, they would probably do away with some of the speeches made afterwards. In any event the House is entitled to an explanation of such an important Bill as this, and if Ministers want to get Bills through they could find a better time than a quarter to twelve at night. The Prime Minister said, I think to-day, that he was bringing on this Bill to-night, because it was an agreed Measure. It may be such, but that is no reason, why Members should not have all the information about it which it is possible to give. He also said that it was destined to give employment and that that was a reason with which we should agree. We shall probably agree with it for that reason, but again that is not a reason why we should not know what it is all about. For Ministers to try to ride off on an excuse like this is not treating the House with the courtesy that it deserves. There are one or two questions which I want to ask the Noble Lord. There is Sub-section (2) of Clause 1. Paragraph (1) reads:
  "A person dealing with the Postmaster-General in respect of any of the said lands
  1522
  or rights in or over them shall not be bound or entitled to inquire whether the consent of the Treasury has been given to that dealing."
  That appears to me to be a very curious paragraph. Frankly, I do not understand why it is in the Bill. There may be good and sufficient reason for it, and, if so, I hope the Under-Secretary will give it to the House. Then there is the next paragraph, which says:
  "The power to purchase lands compulsorily under this Act shall cease on 31st December, 1930."
  Why has the particular date, 1930, been put in? Another question I would like to ask is: Does this mean that the power to purchase lands under this Act is limited to the three specific cases which are mentioned, or does it mean that power will be given to purchase land for every Post Office which may be built up to 1930? Clause 3, which relates to compensation in case of recently altered buildings, reads as follows:
  "In determining any question of disputed compensation under this Act no allowance shall be made on account of any improvement or alteration effected, or any interest created, after the twentieth day of November, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, which, in the opinion of the official arbitrator, was not reasonably necessary or was effected or created with a view to obtaining or increasing compensation."
  Does that mean that these people have already been told that these buildings or lands are going to be acquired, and have they been warned that they must do nothing to them? Supposing that between the giving of this notice last year and the acquisition of the land or building, it is necessary, in the opinion of the proprietor that extra money should be spent or alterations made, does this Clause rule out everything of that description, or is it the arbitrator who will have sole power to decide?
  Again, Clause 5 reads as follows:
  "It shall be lawful for the Postmaster-General on, in, under or over any of the said lands acquired by, or vested in, him to pull down and remove any existing buildings or other works and to construct such other buildings and works, make such approaches and alterations of thoroughfares and do all such other things as in his opinion are necessary or expedient for the purpose of the Post Office."
  It seems to me that the Postmaster-General is taking powers to construct or remove buildings and works and so on,

  1523
  if he thinks fit, without the consent of the local authorities. I know that the local authorities are mentioned overleaf, but it appears to me that in this case the Postmaster-General has power to do as he thinks fit. Does the Bill give him that power, whether the local authority agrees or not?
  Clause 6 says that the Postmaster-General may enter into agreements with local authorities, but supposing that an agreement is not reached, who is the arbitrator, and who has the final say in the matter? There is the question of the diversion or alteration of streets or highways, which with some authorities might be a very important point, and there might be difference of opinion between the Postmaster-General and the local authority. Supposing that they do not reach agreement, who is the deciding authority? Is it the Postmaster-General, or the local authority, or is some arbitrator called in?
  Clause 8 also appears to be very important. Will the power given under that Clause to stop up passage-ways be vested in the Postmaster-General, once the Bill becomes an Act? Are they merely existing passage-ways of no use to anyone except the people who own the building, or are they public thoroughfares which, when the Postmaster-General acquires the site, will be cut off from the, public? The question of right of way is a very acute one, and one that is very jealously guarded by the people of this country. Finally, Clause 11 says:
  "Nothing in the Disused Burial Grounds Act, 1884, as amended by the Open Spaces Act, 1887, or in any other Act shall prevent the erection of buildings on any land in Free Lane in the county borough of Leicester vested in the Postmaster-General."
  Here, again, it appears to me that there might be a clash of opinion between the people concerned and the Postmaster-General, and that some trouble or protest is foreseen as to what is proposed. Foreseeing that, he is seeking dictatorial powers to do what he thinks fit to do, in spite of protest. I should like to get an assurance that no dictatorial powers are to be used by the Postmaster-General.
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: It would appear from Clause 2 that the proposed powers are drastic; powers are given to make entry after 14 days' notice. Sup-
  1524
  posing an allotment is concerned, 14 days' is a very short notice. If it is not that type of land, the question may not be quite so important, but in some cases it may be important indeed.
  Viscount WOLMER: In reply to the questions which were put to me by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon), I ought to explain that this Bill follows the common form of previous Post Office Bills. It is provided that we have to deposit plans setting forth exactly the sites that we propose to take, and the whole Bill is limited to the sites delineated in those plans. The plans have been deposited in the Public Bills Office and communicated to all interested parties, so far as we are aware of them, and publicly advertised. This Bill only gives us power to take the sites shown in the plans, and that explains the point which was raised by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Paling). It is intended to prevent anyone, whose property it is proposed to acquire, from adding unreasonably to its value. The arbitrator is given power to allow any expenditure such as the hon. Member mentioned, which an owner had reasonable cause to make in order to keep the building in a proper state of repair, or for any other sufficient reason. That, again, is the common form, and it comes into every railway Bill and every Bill of this nature. The Land Clauses Acts provide machinery by which the compulsory acquisition of property takes place. That machinery is applicable to the Post Office on practically every point, but there are one or two, points on which it is not applicable. In Clause 2 (a) it is stated that Section 133 of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act shall not be incorporated in this Act. That deals with land taxation, and, as the Crown does not pay land taxes, it is not applicable.
  The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), wanted to know why, under Clause 1, a person dealing with the Postmaster-General shall not be entitled to inquire whether the consent of the Treasury had been given. Of course, that is also a matter of common form, simply put in to safeguard the persons with whom we have to deal. Under Sub-section (1) of Clause 1, the Postmaster-General may not incur any expense in this regard without the consent of the Treasury. In an ordinary transaction in

  1525
  which I, for instance, am in a fiduciary position, and am not allowed to incur expense without the consent of another party, a person who does business with me would have to inquire whether I had that consent before he concluded the deal; but we exempt anyone from whom we are buying this property from the obligation to inquire whether the Treasury has consented. Every one knows that the Postmaster-General is not going to enter into this matter without having previously consulted the Treasury, and this is a mere matter of form. Subsection (3) merely sets a limit to the time within which the Postmaster-General may acquire the properties described in the deposited plans. Something might happen, for instance, in the next two or three months that might make the Postmaster-General unwilling to go on. We do not anticipate any such contingency, but are merely copying the usual form. It would be intolerable that the Postmaster-General should have a perpetual power to seize a particular field or street till the end of time, whenever he wanted to do so, so that the value of buildings or businesses might be completely destroyed.
  Then the hon. Member asked if any houses would be destroyed by these schemes. I think there will be one or two houses—very few—that will have to be pulled down; in nearly all these schemes that is necessary, but I can assure the hon. Member that the Post Office in these matters is always in close co-operation with the local authority, and both the Postmaster-General and the local authorities in the past have done, and I can assure the hon. Member that in these eases also they will do, everything they can within reasonable limits to secure that no undue hardship is inflicted upon the tenants of those houses. The Postmaster-General has had to pull down quite a number of small houses in the past, but care has always been taken to do it in such a way that every consideration has been shown to the tenants who were evicted, and opportunities have been given them to acquire, generally, council houses, or other houses in the near neighbourhood.
  The hon. Member also asked whether direct labour was to be employed, or whether the work was to be done by private enterprise. The answer is that
  1526
  there will be both. There will be a good deal of Post Office or Office of Works work in some cases, but also—for instance, in the erection of plant for the automatic telephone exchange—there will be work done by contractors. The hon. Member also asked what the cost was going to be. I am sure he will appreciate that it would be very undesirable to state the price the Postmaster-General is prepared to offer for the properties in question, because that might have the effect of sending up the price.
  Mr. STEPHEN: I can quite understand that, but might we have some details as to the cost of the buildings?
  Viscount WOLMER: I was going to give the details. The cost of building a telephone exchange varies between £25,000 and £75,000, according to size. The cost of the telephone exchanges mentioned here would be something between those two limits. Of course, the cost of the plant inside the buildings is six or eight times that amount, and, therefore, a very considerable sum of money is involved. I think the only other point raised by hon. Members is the point that was asked in regard to Clauses 5 and 6 about the thoroughfares. Both Clauses are common forms, and have appeared in all Post Office Sites Bills since the beginning of time, and that is why they are hen now. In these particular cases, the Post Office is in complete agreement with all the local authorities concerned, and we do not expect that it will be necessary to bring these powers into force. The hon. Member for Doncaster asked me a question in regard to Clause 8, which deals with the stopping up of passageways. These are little passages in a very dilapidated area in Houndsditch, where we propose to erect a telephone exchange, and the City Corporation has given its agreement to these passages being stopped up. The building of this exchange will make a real improvement in the district. In regard to Clause 11 about the burial grounds, again we are in complete agreement with the local authority and the people of Leicester on this matter. I know I have the support of the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) on this subject. These burial grounds were closed in 1856, and the remaining bodies were removed in 1923.

  1527
  This is the only direction in which the telephone exchange can be extended. There is no local opposition to it. The people are agreed that it is the best use to which the site can be put, but there is a Statutory provision which applies to burial grounds, and, therefore, it is necessary to have this Clause in the Bill. I hope I have not troubled the House too much with details. Every one of these proposals has to be substantiated before the Select Committee, and I hope that after these few remarks the House will give a Second Reading to this Bill.
  Mr. E. BROWN: What about the fourteen days' notice?
  Mr. PALING: I am obliged to the Noble Lord for his explanation. I see that in the Schedule there are three of these passages which are to be stopped up. Am I to understand that, notwithstanding the agreement with the City Corporation, no hardship will be imposed upon the people who may have been in the habit of using these passages?
  Viscount WOLMER: No harship whatever. It is all within a very small area. The three passages are quite close to each other. I understand that there is no opposition to that at all. In regard to the question of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown), I am afraid it has escaped me for the moment.
  Mr. E. BROWN: Clause 2, paragraph (d).
  Viscount WOLMER: That, again, is the common form. I would like to point out that the Postmaster-General served notice in November last and these people will have had practically eight or nine months' notice. This, really, only relates to the last stage, when we tell them we are coming in, a fortnight hence.
  Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: As my constituency is either the principal place, or, at any rate, one of the principal places in which this Post Office (Sites) Bill is to take effect, I think I ought not to let its Second Reading go through without one or two words with regard to it. Generally speaking, I view with grave apprehension the taking
  1528
  of any disused burial ground, because, although it may be true that it has been closed as a burial ground for some time, and although it may be true that all human remains have been removed, my view is, that it should, in general, be to the local feeling on the matter, and left as an open space, and it is wrong to close it for private or public purposes and build upon it. But with regard to this particular site in Leicester, I have been at some pains to inquire as as to the local feeling on the matter, and I find that it is a small place, in a very out-of-the-way part of the City, and that there is no desire whatever in favour of retaining it as an open space. In these circumstances, and in view of the importance of the extension to the post office building, which it is proposed to erect on the site, I can only say, that so far as my constituents are concerned, they have no objection to the Bill, and I shall not oppose Second Reading.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Select Committee of Seven Members, Four to be nominated by the House and Three by the Committee of Selection.
  Ordered, That all Petitions against the Bill, presented Three clear days before the meeting of the Committee, be referred to the Committee; that the Petitioners praying to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or agents, be heard against the Bill, and Counsel heard in support of the Bill.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That Three be the quorum of the Committee.—[Viscount Wolmer.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  [It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-four Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.

  WIRELESS TELEPHONY, GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES.
  WIRELESS TELEPHONY, GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES.
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (EASTER CAMP).
  TERRITORIAL ARMY (EASTER CAMP).
  ARCOS, LIMITED (POLICE SEARCH).
  ARCOS, LIMITED (POLICE SEARCH).
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (FAIR WAGES CLAUSE).
  GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (FAIR WAGES CLAUSE).
  NAVAL ARMAMENTS CONFERENCE.
  NAVAL ARMAMENTS CONFERENCE.
  TIMBER PURCHASES (ADMIRALTY).
  TIMBER PURCHASES (ADMIRALTY).
ROYAL NAVY.
  PENSION RATES.
  PENSION RATES.
  AERATION PLANT.
  AERATION PLANT.
  TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS, BOYS.
  TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS, BOYS.
  ACTING WARRANT OFFICER (WIDOW'S PENSION).
  ACTING WARRANT OFFICER (WIDOW'S PENSION).
  CHINA STATION (PERSONNEL).
  CHINA STATION (PERSONNEL).
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  ROYAL COMMISSION'S RECOMMENDATIONS.
  ROYAL COMMISSION'S RECOMMENDATIONS.
  BENEFITS (STATISTICS).
  BENEFITS (STATISTICS).
  STAGE HANDS.
  STAGE HANDS.
  MILK AND DAIRIES ORDER.
  MILK AND DAIRIES ORDER.
INDIA.
  MR. S. BOSE (RELEASE).
  MR. S. BOSE (RELEASE).
  DISTURBANCES, LAHORE.
  DISTURBANCES, LAHORE.
  BRITISH TROOPS (SEASONAL MOVEMENTS).
  BRITISH TROOPS (SEASONAL MOVEMENTS).
  RUSSIAN TRADE DELEGATION.
  RUSSIAN TRADE DELEGATION.
  HIS MAJESTY'S MISSIONS (STAFFS).
  HIS MAJESTY'S MISSIONS (STAFFS).
  MANDATES COMMISSION (GERMANY).
  MANDATES COMMISSION (GERMANY).
  AGRICULTURAL RATES, SCOTLAND.
  AGRICULTURAL RATES, SCOTLAND.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  SALARIES.
  SALARIES.
  ETHYL ALCOHOL.
  ETHYL ALCOHOL.
  INLAND REVENUE (TAXES BRANCH).
  INLAND REVENUE (TAXES BRANCH).
  INCOME TAX, SCHEDULE D.
  INCOME TAX, SCHEDULE D.
  COTTON TEXTILE INDUSTRY.
  COTTON TEXTILE INDUSTRY.
  SEXUAL OFFENCES AGAINST YOUNG PERSONS.
  SEXUAL OFFENCES AGAINST YOUNG PERSONS.
  POLICE PENSIONS.
  POLICE PENSIONS.
  MOTOR ACCIDENTS.
  MOTOR ACCIDENTS.
  TRUNK ROAD RECONSTRUCTION.
  TRUNK ROAD RECONSTRUCTION.
  EX-SERVICE MEN (MEDICAL TREATMENT AND ALLOWANCES).
  EX-SERVICE MEN (MEDICAL TREATMENT AND ALLOWANCES).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MILITARY MANŒUVRES: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, I have to convey to your Lordships the following Message from the King:—
"I have received your Address praying that I will make an Order in Council under the Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, a draft of which was presented to your Lordships' House on the eighth day of February last. I will comply with your advice.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SUTTON COLDFIELD EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Sutton Coldfield; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Plymouth).
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 10) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Barry, Basingstoke, Hartlepool Port Sanitary District, Oxford, Romford Joint Hospital District, and Sutton (Surrey); and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Plymouth).
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 11) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Essex, Port Talbot, Shoreham-by-Sea, and Southend; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Plymouth).
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

ROYAL ALBERT HALL BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, in moving that you should resolve yourselves into Committee on re-commitment of the Royal Albert Hall Bill, I think I can save your time by reading a letter sent to my colleague in the office, which I think brings this matter up-to-date. It is written by the Parliamentary agent for the Bill, Mr. Berry, and it says:—
"I have heard from the solicitors instructing us that the Council at a meeting yesterday decided unanimously to proceed with this Bill subject to the recommendations of the Select Committee of the House of Lords and at a subsequent meeting of the members of the Corporation they unanimously approved this decision."
I think that will be a satisfactory announcement to your Lordships.
I ought to add this. It has been indicated to me that at the first blush two uncertainties as to the intentions of the Select Committee occur. It is suggested that five members should be added to the Council. The promoters are anxious, in their anxiety to carry out the intentions of the Committee, to know whether that means five additional members or five members appointed by the bodies concerned in place of five existing members. The second point is this: These outside bodies are to appoint five members of the Council. They are anxious to know whether they are to appoint members of their own body or any individual they choose from outside. Lord Esher is not here to-day, but several other members of the Select
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Committee are here, and I think they would help the subsequent smooth working of these things if they would say what the Select Committee intended.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: My Lords, I regret that Lord Esher is unable to be present this afternoon. Not having been Chairman of the Committee, I cannot speak with the same authority, but I can assure the Lord Chairman that we have heard with great satisfaction the statement which he has been able to make, and especially the letter which has reached him from the Council of the Albert Hall Corporation. On the two points which have been raised, I think I can say with assurance that the members to be added to the Council were to be in addition to the existing body, and we so meant by our recommendation, and obviously they were to be members also of the bodies named to make the appointments. I think those are the points on which the Lord Chairman has asked for explanation, so far as I am authorised to make it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made.

STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION (GAS) BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and re'urned to the Commons.
AXMINSTER, CHARD AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.
  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.

    PETERHEAD ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.
    TILBURY ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.
    BURNHAM-ON-CROUCH AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1927.
    DARLINGTON ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1927.
    THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Peel, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
    Moved, That the Special Orders which were presented on the 28th of April last be approved.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 6) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 7) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 8) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NEWCASTLE - UNDER - LYME EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WOKINGHAM EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NEW SARUM EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (CONWAY EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

BETTING BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, this is a Bill of a very insignificant appearance, but it creates an enormous amount of interest among many people in this country, and I should not be at all surprised, if the truth were known, if it were not found that there are a great mane people who are more seriously interested in this Bill than in that particular Bill which is now in another place, and which is being debated with so much simulated fury. This Bill of which I am now moving the Second Reading is the direct and the logical consequence of the Betting Tax, and as the public memory is habitually very short, perhaps it would be just as well if I explained in a few words how the Betting Tax originated, and what the position is at the present moment.
In the year 1923, a Conservative Government being in office, a House of Commons Committee was appointed to consider the question of the taxation of betting. That Committee went very thoroughly into the question, and they eventually decided by a majority that the taxation of betting was practicable. But, with the fear of a General Election before them, they decided, by a majority also, that it was not desirable to proceed with it. Then the question dropped, but in the following year, 1924, I raised this particular question in the House. At that time a Socialist Government was in power, and I obtained the enthusiastic support of our Front Bench. With the exception, I think, of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, they voted with me, and the Socialist Government was naturally defeated without any trouble upon this point. But, as so frequently happens with regard to events in this House, no notice whatever was taken of this display of feeling. In the following year, 1925, I again raised the question, and in 1925 the Conservative Government was in office, but the reception which I then encountered from my Leaders

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in this House was quite different from what it had been in the previous year. Instead of receiving my proposals with enthusiasm, they received them in an extremely tepid manner, and I remember complaining that my noble friend Lord Plymouth must have been briefed by the Anti-Gambling League. It was only by dint of watering down my Resolution that I persuaded my Leaders to accept my proposal.
Then the question again dropped, but I raised it again at a subsequent date, and eventually I collected all the most respectable people with whom I was acquainted and took them on a deputation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Again our reception was not of an encouraging character. The Chancellor of the Exchequer indulged in the usual Ministerial platitudes about the immorality of betting, and said that his Government could not possibly be a party to anything of the kind. But apparently we made much more impression than we were aware of, because shortly afterwards the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced to a surprised world that he had made up his mind to tax betting. Thereupon a sort of unholy and unnatural alliance was immediately contracted between the Free Churches and the bookmakers. Both set to work to denounce the Betting Tax in the most vociferous manner, and they opposed it naturally from diametrically opposite points of view. The champions of anti-gambling maintained that the fact of putting a, tax on betting would pause an enormous increase in betting, and that people who had never made a bet before would at once proceed to bet because a tax had been put upon it. The bookmakers on their part contended that a tax would most infallibly ruin them, and ruin racing as well.
It was perfectly obvious that both could not be right, but what turned out was that both proved to be wrong. But in this case the bookmakers were less wrong than the Free Churches and the anti-gamblers. Betting has not increased since the tax was imposed; on the contrary, it has diminished. On the other hand, racing shows no signs of dying. It seems to me to show many signs of vitality. I speak for once in the presence of distinguished patrons of the turf, and they will probably contradict me if I am wrong, but I am under the
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impression that the prices for thoroughbred stocks are higher than they have ever been before, and that the stakes are higher. I observe, too, with interest that an enormous amount of money is being spent on a new stand at Epsom, although there are only six days' racing in the year there. All this does not look like a moribund industry at all, and when the bookmakers complain that racing receipts have fallen off in consequence of the tax, I very much doubt whether there is any truth in that assertion. I think it would be much more correct to attribute any falling off that there has been to the general depression which exists everywhere and which you will notice in the railway returns and so forth, and it would be much more to the point and much truer if they were to lay the blame for their losses, not upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer with his extremely light tax, but upon Mr. Cook and his friends from Moscow.
The Betting Tax, although it is now generally approved, possesses one cardinal defect. It is an incomplete tax, because it leaves a vast amount of betting alone and does not touch it at all. The reason for this is plain enough, but it is a very unsatisfactory reason. Everybody knows the extreme difficulty that attends the imposition of a new tax if, in addition to persuading Parliament to agree to a new tax, you have added to that the difficulty of persuading them to agree to a change in the law. When you have to do that your difficulties become almost insurmountable, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken that course he probably would have had very great difficulties, not only in Parliament, but in all probability with his own colleagues. Therefore he decided, according to advice given to him by myself amongst others—although I have no reason to believe he has ever paid any attention to me—not to interfere with the law but to tax what was already legal and to leave illegal betting alone.
As a matter of fact, he acted solely according to expediency and personally, think he was quite right at the time. But the result is that it puts bookmakers and backers who keep within the law at a disadvantage compared with those who break the law. For the benefit of noble Lords who are not thoroughly acquainted with racing let

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me shortly explain of what betting really consists. There are two kinds of betting. There is legal betting—that is to say, ready-money betting upon the racecourse and betting upon credit in offices—and there is illegal betting, which is usually known as street betting and consists in ready-money betting in an illegal way. The question of street betting is one which has perplexed Governments for a long time. As far back as twenty-five years ago I sat on a Committee of this House to consider the question and we recommended several remedies which have proved to be quite inefficacious. At the present time street betting is more prevalent than it has ever been: of that I have been assured by credible witnesses. The position at the present time, indeed, is little short of an absurdity. This kind of betting continues to increase. I suppose there is hardly a household in London of which there is not one member who does not indulge in one form of so-called street betting, and the same thing prevails all over the country.
There is not the smallest possibility of stopping it, nor will it ever be possible to stop it. All the efforts that have been made to stop it have been completely unavailing. The reasons of this failure are various, but the main reason why all these efforts have been vain is due to the manifest injustice and unfairness of the law. It is the one instance—the only one that occurs to me—in which the law does appear to act prejudicially in favour of one class as against the other, and this naturally promotes discontent. The inconsistency and unfairness of the present law have been commented upon and are being commented upon every day, more especially by those who have to administer the law. I observed only this morning a case in the newspaper of a prosecution at Greenwich. I will, however, quote but one instance to show what Judges, amongst other people, feel about the present law.
I will take the summing up by a distinguished Judge, Mr. Justice Branson, in a betting case at the Manchester Assizes in November last year. Mr. Justice Branson is reported to have said:—
"It was an extraordinary thing that it should be perfectly legal for a man to carry
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on a business of credit betting—that was to say, that a man might sit in a room and receive bets by telephone or by letter, running up an account with the man who was betting with him, and settling the account by letter at the end of the week; and there was no offence. But if, instead of receiving his bets by telephone, a man came to him and made a bet, that was unlawful. The jury might think that that was a ridiculous position, and he did not think they would be alone in that opinion, but the trouble was that it happened to be the law, and in those Courts they had to administer the law as it was, and not as it ought to be."
After that summing up I was not surprised to see that the particular persons who were charged were acquitted. That sort of thing is going on almost in every Court where these cases are being tried. All this discontent, all this injustice, all this attempt to achieve the impossible, the demoralisation which follows from this particular practice, all the danger which our police incur from the temptations to which they are put—all this can at once be done away with if the simple proposal which appears in this Bill is adopted, and if people are allowed to bet for ready-money in an office.
I am well aware that any proposal of this kind arouses horror amongst many people. I should like to assure persons who are horrified at this prospect—although they are not likely to believe me—that no grounds for their fears exist. We have an object lesson close at hand. It is a most extraordinary thing that in all the debates and the discussions there have been in connection with the Betting Tax and so forth, nobody has drawn attention to this particular case in Ireland. In the Free State they instituted a Betting Tax at the same time as we did, and, I may observe, they have acted in a much more sensible way than we have. I went over to Ireland in the winter to see how matters were going on and what I saw really was a revelation to me. It will have been discovered by this time that I am strongly in favour of the establishment of offices where ready-money betting can be carried on. That is one of the things which the Irish Government have done. I visited these offices in Dublin and I never was more surprised in my life. I confess that I did think there might be some risk in establishing them, but, much to my surprise and I may add to my gratification, I discovered that those

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offices had been a complete success. I never saw anything more orderly in my life. They are not conspicuous. People go into them as they do into an ordinary office; they put their money down and come away, and those whom I saw were persons of most respectable appearance. By the look of them they might have been pew-openers or governesses, people of a most respectable type. There was no crowd and no disorder of any kind.
On the authority of the Free State—because I obtained information from them—I can make two statements which seem to me of very great importance. One is that as the result of establishing these offices street betting in Ireland has come to an end altogether; the second and perhaps more important point still is that in spite of, or rather in consequence of, the establishment of these offices the volume of betting in Ireland has decreased instead of increased. I said that the Irish Government set about this in a more sensible way than we have done, and though the tax is higher than it is here there have been no obstructions on the part of the bookmakers. They have not imitated the example of their English colleagues, who by their efforts have only succeeded in accelerating the advent of the totalisator. There will be a great satisfaction all round when that change comes about. I confess that it never occurred to me that we should ever have much to learn from the Free State, but that only shows how mistaken one can be. In this particular instance they have set an example which we may very well copy if we condescend to do so. If the result of the establishment of ready-money betting offices in Ireland has been a success, why on earth should it not be a success here?
What is there appalling in the suggestion that a man should go with half-a-crown in his pocket into an office and pay it over, or put a 5s. postal order in a letter and send it to a bookmaker? Speaking for myself, I can see nothing alarming about it at all. Suppose—and it is a thing which I think will never arise—that there was some kind of crowd, suppose even that there was a queue of people, would that be any more deplorable a spectacle than that of the crowds of people, belonging chiefly to the opposite sex, who will wait hour after hour, night after night, on the pavement to witness some miserable, rubbishy farce
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which personally would reduce me to profound depression for hours afterwards? I personally, like many others here, have never been able to see any harm in betting provided it is carried on in moderation within people's means, and provided more especially that it is done on the ready-money principle. I am quite unable to get up any admiration for the gentleman who comes to me and says proudly, as if he had done a very fine thing: "I have never made a bet in my life." I cannot feel any admiration for that attitude. On the contrary, I look upon such gentlemen as very poor-spirited people who have never had the courage of their opinions.
There is a good deal to be said for betting, and one of the things to be said in favour of it is that sometimes it is the only method by which we can ascertain the truth. The stock objection to betting, in principle, is that it is demoralising because it is an attempt by people to get something for nothing. Well, after all, to get something for nothing is the whole embodiment of the Socialist theory. Really it surprises me that the noble Earl [Earl Russell] who is to move the rejection of this Bill, who is a Socialist himself, should not realise the illogicality of his proceeding. But I am not so much worried about the opposition of the noble Earl and his friends as about the other kind of opposition which proceeds from people whom I consider to be the most important personages in the country—I allude to the big owners of race horses and the members of the Jockey Club. I always contend that these are the most important personages in the country, because they carry more weight than anybody else, and I am sure a great deal more importance is attached to their utterances than to those of any of the noble Lords on either of the Front Benches in this House. The opposition to betting which comes from these people seems to me inexplicable.
Take the case of my noble friend Viscount Astor. I do not see him here this afternoon, but I believe he is a determined opponent of betting. The strange thing is, however, that Viscount Astor upon one race only wagers a great deal more money than I do in the course of a year. He does not seem to realise that the ownership of horses is the most speculative and at

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the same time one of the most expensive actions in which a human being can indulge. The procedure of a racehorse owner is this: he either, at enormous expense, breeds horses, or he buys them at colossal prices, and in many cases I daresay the owner would not recognise his own purchase a few days afterwards if he saw it among other animals of the same age. After that he has to send these expensive animals to an expensive trainer and then enter them for expensive races. He may have to pay heavy forfeits, which continue to mount up as the time draws near, if he does not run his horses. I believe that if you start a horse in the Derby or the St. Leger or some of the other big races it costs £100. It does not seem to me to be very logical on the part of these gentlemen to denounce betting when they are carrying on this kind of practice. If what I have described is not gambling, then literally I have not the least idea what gambling is or of what it consists. There seems very little difference between this practice and that of putting money into a very expensive lottery.
If the very simple plan I am advocating in this Bill is adopted everybody will be satisfied. When I say everybody I exclude, of course, the anti-gamblers. People will cease to break the law, because there will be no object in doing so. One of the, great drawbacks of the present system is that the law is so persistently broken that it has fallen absolutely into contempt. Street betting will go, and the street bookmaker will certainly not complain, because he will have an office for which he will buy a licence and no doubt he will be delighted to spend money in that manner rather than be obliged to have the very expensive schemes by which he protects himself at the present moment. Another thing that will disappear if you transact betting in this above-board manner will be the continual touting of men and women which goes on every day in every factory as well as in the streets. That would naturally come to an end. And so would the still more objectionable practice of betting among boys and girls and minors because, of course, a book-maker would be very careful not to do anything which would endanger his licence. The police would be occupied in a far more profitable manner than in try-
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ing to stamp out an offence which really is unavoidable; and, finally, the State would profit by increased revenue.
These are not my own ideas. I have never professed to have an original idea in my life. All these advantages have been pointed out in the Report of the Committee to which I have alluded. The only obstacle that stands in the way of the reform which I advocate being adopted is the groundless fear of what for want of a better name is known as the Nonconformist conscience. The fear of the so-called Nonconformist conscience is really nothing but the survival of a particularly silly superstition. You may rank it with the fear of walking under a ladder, or of getting married in May, or of beginning something on a Friday. There is no basis whatever for it and I should have thought that ought to have been plain enough when the Betting Tax was brought in and the futility of this opposition was displayed. I think the time has really come to emancipate ourselves from the hypocritical position in which we find ourselves.
What the Government really say—not this Government alone, but all Governments—is something like this: "Owing to various legal quibbles and absurdities You may bet in certain ways. For instance, a race course is not a public place and therefore you may bet there, and we will tax your bets. You may bet at an office, if you do not resort to it. That is to say, you may bet by telephone, by letter or by telegraph, and we will tax you on that; and, in order to make things pleasant for you and for the book-maker, we will give you extra telephonic, telegraphic and postal facilities, we will provide police for you when you want them, and we will offer no impediment to special trains being run for your benefit. But if you suggest that you should be allowed to go with half-a-crown in your pocket to an office and put it down over the counter, or that you should enclose a bank note or postal order in your letter, then we cannot listen to you for one moment, and the only excuse that we can give is that we think that there are certain misguided people in this country who would say that it was conducive to immorality." I repeat that it is time that we emancipated ourselves from this hypocritical cant.
This Bill is, of course, merely a skeleton or a framework. It is obvious

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to anybody that, if it passed its Second Reading and were subjected to further discussion, a great many additions would have to be made to it, and it is in the highest degree improbable that it would get through both Houses of Parliament. That is a task which, I think, is beyond the capacity of the ordinary private member. What I am asking the House to do on this occasion is to vote upon the principle involved, and I hope I have made that principle clear. I should like to add this. In asking the House to vote upon the principle, I attach very great value to the opinion that the House will express, and for that reason I suggest to my noble friend Lord Salisbury that he should allow a free vote to be taken upon it and not put the Whips on. May I also say that, in my opinion, he will be extremely injudicious if he does not do what I suggest, because it is perfectly obvious to me that before long some alteration in the Gaming Laws is absolutely unavoidable? It will have to be passed by Parliament and, if the Minister when the time comes is confronted with an adverse decision in this House, it will make the work of Mr. Churchill, or whoever the Minister may be, very much more difficult than will be the case if my suggestion is adopted. Accordingly I hope, in conclusion, that the vote will be taken upon the principle of this Bill, and that the vote will be decided in accordance with the principles of common sense and justice. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Newton.)
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, I happen to be sitting with several members of the club to which my noble friend alluded, and I can only trust that we looked becomingly modest during that part of his speech. I will not follow my noble friend into any discussion of the question whether or not the Betting Tax is doing harm to horse racing, beyond saying that I do not think that either of the instances quoted by my noble friend was very convincing. The prices of thoroughbred stock must necessarily be regulated by the size of the prizes that they can be run for. There has been no time for the tax to have any effect on that aspect of racing, and accordingly it is obvious that no such
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alteration can be expected. With regard to the grand stand at Epsom, my noble friend must surely be aware that, with an undertaking of that size, contracts for the stands had to be let many months before the Finance Act of last year was introduced. I really do not think that either argument was quite a fair one.
I shall vote for my noble friend's Bill because I believe it will remove a genuine grievance, and also because I think it will remove a gross instance of class in-equality. I happen to know that there are a large number of reputable people in this country, people who are in all other respects perfectly law-abiding, who resent very deeply the necessity under which they find themselves of having to commit a breach of the law every time they make a bet. So long as credit betting is the only form of betting that is tolerated by the law off our race-courses, so long will the law continue to make criminals of people who are not really performing a wicked act. That in itself, I think, constitutes a genuine grievance, but the grievance is accentuated a hundred fold when the people who suffer from it know that persons of greater wealth, and therefore persons who are able to obtain credit, can do what they themselves are not allowed to do, and may perhaps back the same horses with perfect impunity and without let or hindrance. I think that this is an injustice, and for that reason I shall vote for my noble friend's Bill.
The noble Lord has told us that we are to regard this Bill as a skeleton. Frankly, the only complaint that I have against it is that it does not go far enough. It will redress the grievance to which I have just alluded, but it does not do the thing which is, I think, an obvious corollary to what the noble Lord asked the House to accept. If you allow people to deposit money in advance with a bookmaker when they make a bet, it should follow as a natural sequence of events that you should at the same time make it difficult or unlikely that the bookmaker will decamp with their money. There is no protection of that sort in the law as it stands, and there would be no such protection if this Bill were passed. I shall give my vote for this Bill as a member of your Lordships' House, and I shall give it for the reasons that I have stated. I do not suppose that your Lordships are

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particularly interested in the way that I am going to vote or in my reason for doing so, but I do ask for the attention of the House to what I am going to say, because in saying it I shall be speaking in my capacity for the moment as a steward of the Jockey Club. I shall be speaking with the full approval of my colleagues, one of whom sits besides me, and with a full knowledge of the responsibility that I am taking.
In order to explain the point that I wish to put before the House, I must ask to be allowed to give as briefly as I can an account of the way in which defaulting bettors are dealt with, and how that system has arisen. In the early days of racing, disputes concerning bets were settled by the stewards of the race meetings. There are instances on record, I think in the reign of King Charles II, when the Sovereign himself has adjudicated on cases of this kind which arose at Newmarket. The stewards of race meetings and the stewards of the Jockey Club adjudicated on these disputes until about the middle of last century, and at about that time, which your Lordships may remember was the period when Parliament decided that the Judges had something better to do than try this sort of case, the Jockey Club, for precisely similar reasons, decided that the stewards should no longer take cognisance of betting disputes. That was done for exactly the same reason as Parliament made its decision with regard to the Courts. But there is an important difference between what Parliament did and what the Jockey Club did. The Judges were allowed by Parliament to wash their hands of the whole business. The Jockey Club delegated the duty of hearing and adjudicating on these cases to the committee of Tattersall's, and they authorised the stewards of the Club to give effect to reports of default from Tattersall's committee and warn persons so reported off Newmarket Heath.
That system subsists to-day, and so far as our racecourses are concerned it works satisfactorily. Tattersall's committee is, I venture to say, as good a body as can be found for this purpose. It enjoys the confidence and respect of all reputable racing people, and it was recognised by a Judge of the High Court recently as the proper body to adjudicate on these matters. I recently took a member of
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the legal profession to a meeting of that committee. He heard half a dozen cases disposed of, and he told me when we were coming away that he thought what he had heard constituted a very fine example of rough and ready justice—of the sort of justice meted out at a Court-Martial, perhaps the best and fairest justice in the world. I say that with diffidence in the presence of so many learned members of this House, but I think they would be the first to agree with me on that point. I should like to tell the House something about the composition of this committee. The Chairman at the present moment is a General with a distinguished record. Two members of the Jockey Club are on the committee, and half a dozen other gentlemen well known and respected in the racing world, several of whom are connected with the professional side of betting. The procedure of the committee is as follows:—When a man is unable to obtain payment of a betting debt which he considers due to him he reports the matter to the committee. A day is appointed for the hearing of the case and both sides are summoned to attend. If the committee decide that the claim is a just one they order the debtor to pay. If he does not pay they report him to the stewards of the Jockey Club, and they warn him off Newmarket Heath as long as the default continues.
I apologise for going into these particulars at such length, but the House ought to know them in view of what I am going to ask for in a moment. The effect of warning off Newmarket Heath is that a man is not only warned off all our property at Newmarket, but is prevented from going into an enclosure on any racecourse in the country. We send a list of the people who have been made defaulters to all the managers of race meetings and require the stewards of those meetings to see that they are not allowed in anywhere. I have here a copy of the list which we send round and I will deal with it in a moment. In order to make sure that defaulters and other undesirable characters are excluded from racecourses we have established an organisation of racecourse detectives, paid for in part by a levy on the racecourses which hold licences from us, and partly out of the funds of the Jockey Club. This system was established in consultation with the

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Home Office. We have received valuable help from the Home Secretary, from the officials of Scotland Yard and from chief constables all over the country, and I should like to say that chief constables have, in many instances, expressed their gratitude for and satisfaction at the assistance which our organisation has been able to give to the local police. I emphasise this point and detain the House over it because I want to make it quite clear that we do everything we can for the protection of people who attend our racecourses. We think it right that people who support our sport by paying to go into the enclosures should receive this protection.
I hesitate to assume that the moral standard of His Majesty's Government is lower than ours in matters of this kind: I prefer to believe that the facts are not understood. But I ask the House to consider what is happening in regard to the licences which are being issued to bookmakers. They are being issued broadcast to every applicant who has sufficient money to pay the fees, without any inquiry as to whether he is a suitable person to hold a licence. It is grossly unfair to the public, and even more unfair to the honourable and reputable members of the bookmaking profession. There are many such—they are in an enormous majority—but there are, unfortunately, a few who will resort to any subterfuge to avoid payment of what they ought to pay, and I tell the House, and I say it with a great sense of responsibility, that there are in this list which I hold in my hand the names of men who have been reported to the stewards of the Jockey Club by Tattersall's committee over and over again as defaulters. We have warned them off Newmarket Heath; they cannot go on to any racecourse in the country; but they are to-day soliciting custom from the public by every device known to the modern science of advertising—by letter, by circular, by large type in the daily Press, and even on the omnibuses running in our streets. I say it is a crying scandal, and it is wrong that the Government should connive at it and profit by it. The stewards of the Jockey Club are powerless in the matter. We can exclude these people from racecourses, but we cannot prevent them from carrying on business elsewhere. The Government are drawing a very large
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revenue from this business and I say that it is their duty to prevent this from happening. I will give this list of defaulters to the representative of the Treasury in this House if he will accept it, and I will ask him to take it to the Board of Excise and ask them to go into it, and to find out how many of their customers are mentioned in its pages.
I will tell the House something which happened the other day and which came to my notice. The manager of one of our racecourses came to me and asked what he ought to do in a difficult question which had arisen. A man who had recently been convicted of "welshing" by the bench of a neighbouring town was starting to make a book in the "silver" ring the race meeting. One of our racing detectives went up to him and told him to clear out. The answer he received was this: "You cannot prevent me from betting. I am a licensed bookmaker; I hold a licence from the Chancellor of the Exchequer." I do not think I can tell the House exactly what I said, but I gave him to understand that we did not mind where he got his licence, but he was not going to swindle people on our racecourses. I do not think it is asking very much to ask His Majesty's Government to try and take some of the same care that we do to protect the public. I hope the Bill will pass. I hope it will be amended on the lines that I have indicated, and I shall certainly give it my support. I have thought it my duty, as a member of your Lordships' House, to put your Lordships in possession of these facts which have come to my notice as a steward of the Jockey Club, in the hope that the Government may take action upon them.
EARL RUSSELL, who had given Notice to move, That the Bill be read 2a this day six months, said: My Lords, anyone who brings an impartial and a considering mind to bear upon this subject of betting must, I think, very soon be struck by the confused and difficult nature of the subject. The confusion and the difficulty take two forms. There is first the legal confusion and difficulty, which is very considerable, but that is comparatively a small matter, because it can always be put right by legislation, and a way can be found through the maze by lawyers, however illogical the existing maze may be. And then there

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is the much more difficult confusion as to the moral aspect of the matter, on which the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill dealt, and to which I shall have to refer.
As I understand the law, at present it is still the law, as it was before betting was taxed, that you may not resort to a betting office for the purpose of betting. I do not think that was changed by the Finance Act, and, if I am right in thinking that that has not been changed, I do not quite see how the Bill of the noble Lord is going to do all the wonderful things that he told us. He said that touting would disappear and that street bookmaking would disappear if the principle of his Bill were adopted. As I understand the Bill, which really contains only one operative clause—I hope the noble Lord will correct me if I misunderstand it—it merely means that you may bet upon these premises in ready money instead of upon credit. I do not understand that it goes so far as to authorise resorting to the premises for the purpose of betting.
LORD NEWTON: I do.
EARL RUSSELL: If it does, that alters the argument, but I am not clear about that; the noble Lord did not say so in his speech. If, as I understand, the Bill does in fact do that, or if it is his intention that the Bill should legalise resorting to these offices, then of course you come to a totally different question. Your Lordships know very well that the reason why the resorting to betting offices was originally made illegal was that they partook of the nature of disorderly houses—I do not mean in the modern and limited sense in which that term is sometimes used, but in the sense in which it was used at the time of these Acts—that is to say, they were places where there was a noise, uproar and confusion, which were a nuisance to the neighbours. It is not necessary that that should take place nowadays, although I think the noble Lord did envisage queues existing for persons to register the bets in their half-crowns. But I think it was pretty certain that if they would not be centres of actual disorder in the sense understood by the police, they would be centres of an undesirable character in any town or village where they were set up.
LORD NEWTON: It is not so in Ireland.
EARL RUSSELL: In Ireland things always happen rather strangely. One never can tell. The noble Lord spoke of the moral aspect, and said that he could not see that there was any harm in betting if people betted with moderation. That may very well be true, but of so many things that is also true. It is somewhat analogous to the consumption of alcohol, is it not? A very large number of people who are neither teetotalers nor excessive drinkers think that there is no harm in the consumption of alcohol in moderation; but the trouble in the case of alcohol has been, and is, that because it is a profitable trade it is forced upon people to an extent which they do not desire, and that they frequently consume alcohol in quantities which do injury not only to their health and their work and to their lives, but considerable injury to their pockets.
The noble Lord himself admitted in his speech that that is very much the present position of cash-betting when this touting goes on. I have taken the trouble, as I have no doubt many of your Lordships have done, to look at the Report of the Committee which sat upon betting. They point out that the extent—I do not say of the evil, because I do not want to beg the question; but the extent to which betting takes place in all classes is amazing. They point out that touts are sent into factories and workshops, who collect bets from the workmen there, that the street bookmakers or their agents go round to private houses and endeavour to extract bets from the wives of the workmen when they are out. The noble Lord said that this Bill will stop all that, and I assume—I think rightly from his speech—that he would be in favour of limiting that kind of betting and putting a stop to it. I do not wish to give your Lordships instances, but everyone knows that all the evidence of any Inquiry that has ever taken place on this subject goes to show that a very large number of the people who bet in half-crowns and so on do, in effect, deprive their children of boots in consequence, or stint them of food, in order that they may have this money to spend on betting.
The Committee itself says, and quotes police evidence for the fact, that a great

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deal of this ready-money betting is the sort of thing which leads to pilfering and robbing of tills, and that kind of thing. None of your Lordships would wish that to continue, and if I thought that the Bill of the noble Lord would, in fact, put a stop to that, and if he had succeeded in convincing me of that, I should be the first to support him. I doubt if it would be so. The only thing, it seems to me, that would put a stop to that would be to treat it on the same basis as what we call "disinterested management" in the liquor trade. So long as there is a profit to be made out of the vices and the follies of your fellow creatures, and so long as it is possible to carry on that trade without interruption, people will be found willing to exploit them, and willing to develop the trade and willing to push their fellow creatures into any condition of misery rather than not make a profit out of the trade. This Bill does nothing to stop that.
If, as I now understand from the noble Lord, the intention is that you should be able to resort to these premises with your half-crowns, or shillings, or five shillings in your pocket, instead of going to the street bookmaker, then that means that you are to permit to be set up and opened a licensed shop for betting in every town, and presumably in every large village of sufficient importance to make it worth while to pay the rent of the premises. And you are, of course, to be allowed to advertise in that shop the "odds" and the form of horses, and the results of races, and all the things that would lead people to come there and resort to it for the purpose of betting. It may be possible. I do not gather from the Bill that there is any prohibition of the present system, that men would resort to the office for the purpose of betting, and I do not see any reason why touts should not still be sent out to bring in people in sufficient numbers to the offices and there resort to betting.
LORD NEWTON: May I point out to the noble Earl that the essence of the Bill is that these men would have to obtain licences and if they indulged in any practice of the kind to which he refers their licences would go.
EARL RUSSELL: I do not know that there is anything in the licence now granted to bookmakers which forbids them to tout or advertise for business. I do not understand from this Bill that there is anything in the licence proposed to be granted which would forbid them from doing what I have suggested. The noble Lord has said it is a skeleton Bill, but an important part of its clothing has been omitted if it is intended to be clothed, and if there is to be prohibition of touting. And to what extent is advertising for business to be prohibited? Are the bookmakers to be allowed to advertise in the local papers or to send round advertising circulars as moneylenders do? This Bill is brought before your Lordships and commended on those grounds and all I have to say to it is that the Bill as it stands certainly does not carry out what the noble Lord suggested. I conceive myself that it would lead to a very considerable increase of betting to have these public and licensed places. I am very glad to think that that is not the desire of the noble Lord and it is, of course, a matter of opinion for all your Lordships whether that would be the effect or would not be the effect. I rather fear it would be so.
May I turn for a moment to what I consider to be the moral principle at the back of the objection to betting? The noble Lord said that it was the desire to get something for nothing and, expert as he may be on this question of betting, he showed, I fear, that he is not an expert on the question of Socialism when he went on to say that that was a Socialist principle. I would commend to the noble Lord's attention almost any standard work upon Socialist principles and he will find that underlying the whole system of Socialism is the giving of service. Service is that which is to be given and for which you are to be rewarded with subsistence and the amenities of subsistence. I have never seen it enunciated anywhere that the principle of Socialism is that you are to get something for nothing: you are to render service for it. And to my mind the real evil of betting is that by that or by any other form of speculation a man seeks to acquire money and riches without giving corresponding service, and almost every moralist will agree, I think, that that is a thing which undermines and saps the

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human character and has a very bad effect on the character of the people who give way to it. They gradually get into the way of thinking that all life is a speculation to be got through in the easiest possible way, without ever doing honest work for honest pay, that they are to become rich by windfalls, by accidents, by lotteries, by bets, and by all those other things which contravene that principle of payment for honest work done.
That is the real principle which betting offends. The principle perhaps hardly applies—or rather if the principle applies it applies very slightly—in the case where the bet is for an amount that is insignificant to the person who makes it because then he is not really seeking to acquire wealth but is amusing himself. There is no very particular harm in his spending a small sum on that amusement as on any other. He is not really seeking to enrich himself and it does not change the tenour of his life or of his mind or thoughts. I am anxious to remove the reproach which the noble Lord hurled across the House—I do not say he intended it specially for myself—that a person who had never made a bet was a poor spirited person. I will offer the noble Lord a bet of ten shillings that his Bill will not pass if he will give me suitable odds. I should not like to rest under that reproach, for I feel I could scarcely bear it. There are many things connected with racing which might legitimately be taxed. I have often thought that in addition to betting, if we are going on the principle of taxing luxuries you might very well tax the racehorse. I can imagine no greater luxury. It is a pure luxury. The only objection to that tax is an objection which I have to many of the taxes of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that is that they contravene the principle that von should not put on a tax unless it brings in something sufficiently substantial. I doubt whether racehorses would bring in anything sufficiently substantial. I think they would come within the definition of fancy taxes.
I rather think this tax upon betting has had a bad moral effect upon the country by, in a sense, recognising it But of course our present legal position is quite indefensible. There is no justification at all for it and no one can resist
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the observation, which is constantly made, that all our legislation on this subject is either folly or hypocrisy; that it does not appear to have any underlying principle. The Betting Committee themselves say and, I dare say, rightly, that the desire to bet is so widely spread among the community that it is hopeless to put it down by law. That may be so, but they also admit that a good deal of the growth of betting has been of comparatively recent date and I cannot help thinking that a good deal might be done to discourage it if people were really seriously minded to attempt that discouragement. They say, and it is no doubt true, that in the case of the attempt of the police to put down street betting the sympathies of the public are entirely with the offenders and not with the police. I do not doubt that for a moment. They say, as the noble Lord said in moving this Bill, that at the root of the thing is a sense of injustice as between class and class in the matter. One cannot deny that either. But I think it is not necessary to go any further in the direction of encouraging it and by encouraging what undoubtedly does produce in the course of the year a great deal of harm, a great deal of misery and, very often, actual want to women and children. I think it also produces what is worse than that, the attitude of mind to which I directed your Lordships' attention, the attitude of mind of losing sight of honest service for honest payment and taking refuge in windfalls and accidents.
This Bill, as I understand it, is going to increase the facilities for betting. It is going to make that legal which is now illegal. It is not, so far as I can make out, going to do anything definite in the way of prohibiting or further stopping that which is now illegal; it is merely going to provide an additional facility; and for that reason I hope your Lordships will not see fit to pass it this afternoon. The noble Lord at the end of his observations said that it was a skeleton Bill and that you were only to vote for the principle. I listened rather anxiously to find out what the principle was for or against which I was to vote and unfortunately the noble Lord did not go on to tell us. I confess I do not know now what the principle is for which we are to vote unless it is the principle

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that there should be no distinction between ready-money betting and credit, betting.
LORD NEWTON: That is so.
EARL RUSSELL: Well, if that is the principle it is a principle, it seems to me, which might be worth voting for if you were considering an alteration of the law as a whole, but hardly worth while putting in this Bill. What I would suggest to Your Lordships is that this question of betting is really a social question of very grave importance. The Report of the Committee recognised that and emphasised it. They were not asked to report on that aspect of it, but they did recognise and emphasise it. Any attempt to deal with it should, I think, be the effort of the Government of the day after a definite inquiry with the object of seeing what can be done. The question is far too difficult to settle without very careful examination. The best advice is required as to what steps are possible and whether such steps, if adopted, would be practicable. I am the last person to condemn legislation because it is introduced by a private member. It may well be that private members have more energy than the Government of the day and are more ready to bring useful measures before your Lordships' Rouse. But this is really a very grave social evil and one which I think is quite fit to engage the attention of any Government. I do not know that we are compromised, fatally compromised, in dealing with it by the adoption of a Betting Tax, but I do urge that before any change is made in the law, anomalous and indefensible as it is, there should be very careful inquiry from a responsible quarter. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months").—(Earl Russell.)
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I do not wish to enter into any discussion on the merits or demerits of this particular Bill. I am afraid I do not know very much about betting and in consequence I should be the last to find all the arguments which can undoubtedly be brought forward in regard to this Bill. I rise for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is as a member of the Jockey Club
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to support the remarks that have been made by our senior steward, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell. He has put before your Lordships a matter on which we who are interested in racing feel very deeply, that is, that whilst we are doing all we possibly can to purify the turf and to remove from our enclosures these welshers and swindlers, the Government are, so to speak, whitewashing the very individuals we wish to exclude.
A bookmaker at the present moment is really a licensed collector of taxes for the Government. It is through him that a certain amount of revenue is expected and obtained, and surely it should be the object of the Government, and of the Treasury in particular, to see that the men they thus authorise to collect the taxes should be men who are supposed, at all events, to behave honestly both to the Government and to the people with whom they bet. At the present moment that is not the case, as Lord Hamilton of Dalzell has very clearly shown and as the paper in his hand would show even more conclusively if members of your Lordships' House had time to examine it. There are undoubtedly at the present moment a lot of men receiving licences whom we would not in any circumstances allow on our courses and in our enclosures. I do therefore, as a member of the Jockey Club, ask your Lordships' attention to what Lord Hamilton of Dalzell has said and I sincerely trust the Government, as they undoubtedly can do through the administrative act of the Treasury, will take steps to prevent and to eliminate any danger in the future from what we believe to be a great scandal.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I do not intend to follow the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill into the history of the reception which this question has had at your Lordships' hands at different times. I want to explain briefly the position of the Government with regard to the Bill. As the noble Lord has already pointed out, the effect of this Bill would be to remove the ban which is imposed upon betting by the Act of 1853, that is, upon ready-money betting in offices, and of course it would have the effect of completely reversing the policy of that Act. I am fully aware, and I am sure all your Lordships are fully aware, of the very obvious anomalies which do exist with regard to

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the general Betting Laws in this country. I am not here this afternoon to defend those anomalies in any way, but I want to point out and to emphasise that when the Betting Duty was introduced last year it was introduced on the explicit understanding that nothing in the legislation concerning it should have the effect of making legal what was at that time illegal.
There was, in fact, included in the Finance Act a definite stipulation of that kind. Section 15 (2) of that Act reads as follows:—
"Nothing in this Part of this Act shall operate so as to render lawful any betting in any manner or place in which it is at the commencement of this Part of this Act unlawful, or so as to authorise the writing, printing, publication or sending of any notice, circular or advertisement which is at that time unlawful."
And the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, spoke as follows:—
"I am not trying at this particular moment, or on this particular point, to set the world to rights. I am trying to balance future Budgets. I do not, therefore, propose to change the law. We do not propose to make anything legal which is not now legal and we do not propose to invest a wager with any recognition, sanction or recoverability which it does not now possess."
Later on at different stages of the Finance Bill he reiterated this in practically identical terms. I think it is quite clear what was the intention of the Government at that time. It was that, although this Duty was introduced and imposed, they had no intention for the time being of altering the law so as to make legal what was at that time illegal.
Therefore I think that the question appears to resolve itself practically into this: Assuming that the Bill which the noble Lord has introduced is a good one—and I am not venturing to express any opinion on its merits now—would it be wise so soon after the introduction of that Duty to put into effect such a drastic change as the Bill of which the noble Lord has moved the Second Reading would entail? I think noble Lords, on reflection, will realise that one would come to the conclusion that the answer must be in the negative. The Betting Duty has only been in operation just over six months and the most important part of the racing season is still before us. I think your Lordships will agree that it would be impossible to make any
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dependable deduction from the scanty and incomplete results, facts and figures which we have at our disposal at the present moment. I think it would be still more impossible, or rather perhaps I may say unwise, on the strength of those facts and figures, to make such a fundamental change in the law of the country with regard to betting as is foreshadowed by this Bill.
I should like to make it quite clear that I am not suggesting for a moment that a change in these laws can never be contemplated. That would be absurd and ridiculous. I am merely saying that in my opinion the introduction of this Bill seems somewhat premature. There is no doubt, I think, that public opinion is moving on this subject. There seems to be a general increase of interest on this question and for that reason the Government are very naturally following the whole situation with the very greatest care. It is quite possible that at some time or other they will have to take action. There are all sorts of possibilities in view, and among them are many which will obviously have to be taken into consideration. There is the question—as a matter of fact, this point was only lightly touched upon—of the introduction of the totalisator. That is a subject that has drawn to it itself increasing attention during the last month, and it would have to be very seriously considered.
In connection with the general prospects, I think it would be right to quote to your Lordships a few words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a reply to a deputation from the Free Churches on this subject in June of last year. He said:—
"It may be that the day will come when the State will endeavour to address itself to the whole problem of betting and gambling, and in that case I entirely agree that it should not be done as a question of raising revenue, but as a social, moral and political issue which must be dealt with according to the sense of the nation and of Parliament in a Bill specially devoted to that purpose. We have no intention whatever of raising such an issue."
I think that really makes clear the position of the Government towards this question. It is that, when they introduced the Duty last year, it was not intended to make any alteration in the law at that moment, and the Government are not satisfied that the present

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Duty has been in force sufficiently long to warrant their changing the law now.
A number of issues have been raised this afternoon which perhaps were not particularly germane to this Bill, such as that which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, who is naturally so well qualified to speak on these subjects, and which was touched upon by the noble Earl, Lord Derby. I am sure your Lordships will understand that I am not in a position to say anything definite on that subject, but I can assure those noble Lords that anything that they say will naturally be taken into very careful consideration. With regard to the actual merits or demerits of the Bill I do not propose to say more than a very few words. There are obviously very strong arguments on either side, and we have heard noble Lords arguing with considerable force from both points of view this afternoon. But it is quite clear that the Bill does involve, in addition to the somewhat small point that seems at first sight to be raised, every kind of legal, social and moral consideration, all of which have to be taken into account.
I am not intending to go into those arguments this afternoon and I am not even intending to strike a balance of opinion on one side or the other, but I do think it right to say that, if it is meant to pass this Bill into law, it is quite clear, as the noble Lord who introduced it admitted, that it would require a great deal of further careful attention, and probably amendment as well. Whatever the merits of the noble Lord's proposal nay be, it is quite obvious that, before cash betting can be legalised, the question of differentiation between applicants and the conditions under which registered bookmakers carry on such business must be very carefully considered, because they do involve all kinds of other points.
I understand that primarily the purpose of the noble Lord is to test the feeling of the House upon the actual merits of this Bill, and in order that this may be done as far as possible, and at his request, the Government have agreed, if there is a Division, not to put the Government Whips on. Speaking for myself, I must say that I find it difficult to dissociate the pure merits of the Bill from all the other very important special
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considerations that surround it. They naturally have a very real and important bearing upon the situation, and it is because I feel that it is really impossible to divorce the pure merits of the Bill from all those considerations that I personally propose to vote against the Second Reading.
EARL BUXTON: My Lords, I think that every member of your Lordships' House will agree that the present stare of the Betting Laws and the enormous amount of what is called street betting which takes place are very deplorable. Everybody would desire to reduce street betting as far as it can be reduced, and we can all agree that at present the law is full of complications and anomalies. I must say that I agree with my noble friend Lord Plymouth, who spoke for the Government, that my noble friend's Bill would deal only with a portion of the evil. If we are to deal with it, it should be dealt with as a whole. My noble friend seemed to imply that if his Bill were passed it would at once get rid of street betting. I do not think that there is anything in the Bill, which he himself described as mere outline, that would necessarily have that effect. I must say that I agree with the Government in thinking that the Bill is premature at the moment when the whole position has been altered by the Betting Tax, and that we should not attempt to deal with the matter by a side issue.
But I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the matter ought to be reconsidered, from the point of view not only of present taxation but of the moral effect to which attention has been drawn. Taken as a whole, I should like to endorse that which fell from my noble friend Lord Russell. We had an Inquiry a year or two ago, not in reference to the question of whether betting should be recognised by the law or whether the present illegalities should be reduced, but solely as to whether it was possible to introduce a Betting Tax. A majority of the Select Committe came to the conclusion that it was possible to deal with betting in that way, and they proposed a Betting Tax, but it has been objected, and I think quite rightly, that they had nothing to do with the general question of betting throughout the country.
I think there is a great deal to be said for my noble friend's suggestion that the

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time has now come to have another Inquiry as to the general position of betting in the country, in order to see if it can be dealt with as a whole. I feel that my noble friend's Bill would not deal with it, but would only legalise what is at present illegal and give an impression that the Government have reconsidered their attitude towards street betting in a direction which I am sure is contrary to public opinion. Without going into the merits of the Bill any further, I shall certainly vote against it on the ground so ably stated by Lord Plymouth and because I believe that this matter, if dealt with at all, should be dealt with as a whole and not by a side issue such as that introduced by my noble friend.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, I feel a good deal of hesitation in intervening even for a minute in this debate, as I have no technical knowledge whatsoever of the subject, but I have a good deal of knowledge both of the extent of betting and of the evils that follow from it. I am not prepared in the least to argue that betting per se is immoral or evil, but I do venture to point out that the extent that it has now reached and the evils that arise from it are causing something which is becoming a real danger to the nation. Certainly since I was ordained, and was first brought into intimate contact with the working classes, betting has increased in two ways. Apparently it has greatly increased among women, and during the last few years there has been a very large increase in betting among boys and girls, and even among children. It is extraordinary what a mania there is for betting among boys in poorer districts. For instance, at this time of year when we are arranging for summer camps, we find that it is impossible to get any definite answer from boys whether they are coming to the summer camps until immediately after Derby Day. Apparently it depends upon whether they lose or win. The boys apparently wish to have some kind of excitement and they get it through betting.
It would be an exaggeration to say that every one who bets is demoralised, but it is true to say that there is a large amount of avoidable suffering caused by the practice. I doubt whether
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there are in the police courts a very large number of cases of petty dishonesty due to betting, but for one case which appears in the police courts every social worker will tell von that there are literally dozens of cases of boys who get into trouble with their employers through petty pilfering. Therefore when I ask myself whether I should vote for the proposal that is before this House to-day, I put one test only and that is: Is this Bill likely to increase or to decrease the amount of betting in the country?
LORD NEWTON: To decrease it.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: I put the same question to myself with regard to the proposal for the taxation of betting, and there I came to the conclusion that possibly Betting Tax might decrease the amount of betting in the country. Therefore I refused to join in any of the agitation which I think was carried on, somewhat inconsistently, against the tax. In this matter, however, I feel rather differently. If I had any ground for believing that allowing this cash betting at a house would lead to a reduction of street betting, which is becoming nothing less than a scandal, I should vote for the Bill. Even my chaplain a few days ago, when passing through the streets, was twice asked to bet on some race. You find a regular system of canvassing for bets in the new districts which are springing up under the housing schemes. Indeed, almost one of the first visitors to call at these new houses is the representative of these betting concerns.
As far as I can see, however, there is nothing in the proposals of this Bill which can lead us to believe that in the future, until a new law is passed, street betting will be stopped. The noble Lord was extremely optimistic about it. He believes that those engaged in this kind of betting will in future bet in some house which is properly licensed. I venture to believe that there is no real reason for thinking that this will be the case. Instead I think you will have a very large number of houses in which there is a licensed and recognised agent, whose one purpose will be to encourage betting. He will have a house with all kinds of advertisements, making it attractive like some of those betting centres one sees occasionally on the Con-

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tinent, especially in the south of Spain—a place made thoroughly attractive, and which it is very difficult for ally -one in the least inclined to bet to pass by without entering. You will also have vested interests formed and possessed by those who will do their utmost to see that the law is brought into accordance with their own interests, and who will oppose any law which might possibly check the growth of betting.
I could not help feeling that one of the strongest arguments brought against the measure was a statement put forward by the noble Lord who spoke second in support of the measure. If already, under the Betting Tax, licences have been given to a large number of undesirable people—if that measure has already failed in that way—what guarantee have we that the same thing may not happen under this new measure, if the system of licensing is extended? Therefore I venture to say that until we have had a much longer period of experience of the working of the Betting Tax it would be most unwise to attempt to extend its operation in this way, and I shall vote against the Bill.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not rise to make anything like a speech, but I think it only right that, as representing the Government in a very prominent position in this House, I should make quite clear what is the position of the Government on the question of the Division which is about to take place. Lord Newton has moved this Bill but, as my noble friend Lord Plymouth has said, more particularly in order to ascertain the opinion of the House on this question of cash betting. Upon that we do not desire to interfere if he goes to a Division, and so far as this Division on the Second Reading is concerned the Government will take no part as a Government. We shall not try to use our influence on any of your Lordships, beyond the extent to which our individual arguments may prevail, to induce your Lordships to take one course rather than another.
With regard to any future stages of the Bill the Government cannot view them with indifference. We are practically pledged by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to alter the Betting Laws in connection with the Betting Tax. That does not bind us, as
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has been said, for all time, but it certainly binds us for the few months which have elapsed—and for more than that—since the Betting Tax was enacted. Therefore if it comes to a question whether the Bill is to pass into law, I am afraid we should have to use all the influence we possess to induce your Lordships not to allow it to pass into law. So far as the present Division is concerned, and as to the effort which Lord Newton desires to make to ascertain the views of the House upon what he calls the principle of the Bill, we, as a Government, do not want to interfere. Personally I shall vote against the Bill, but I do not wish to use my influence upon anybody else's vote.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I have now had, I regret to say, considerable Parliamentary experience, and I have invariably found the same thing. Whenever I have brought forward a Motion or a Bill I have been invariably told by die Government that my action was both premature and inopportune. I am told the same thing to-day. I entirely dissent from that view. My action is not premature, nor is it inopportune. My action is very apposite. This question has got to be dealt with, and it is no good making out that it cannot be dealt with now, because the Government will have to tackle it later on.
Apparently what is going to decide the Division now is the question whether betting is going to be diminished or increased by this Bill. I have no hesitation in telling the right rev. Prelate that betting will be diminished. Betting has diminished in consequence of the Tax, and I wish carefuly to point out that betting has diminished in Ireland on account of the Free State Government adopting the principle I want this House to accept this evening. As for the point as to whether the wrong kind of people may get licences, that seems to have very little to do with the case. Does it not stand to reason that dangers of that kind are much more likely to occur if this proposal is not adopted?—because very naturally a sharp eye would be kept on these people, and they would do nothing likely to forfeit their licences. Therefore the scandals of which the right rev. Prelate complains are much more likely to disappear than to increase.

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May I again remind the House that what noble Lords are asked to do is vote on the principle of the Bill? And the principle of the Bill is, I think, clear to everybody. It is quite plain, as I have already said, that even if I am lucky enough to get a Second Reading, it will be practically impossible for the Bill to make any further progress, because the Government are going to oppose it, but that is no reason why noble Lords should
Resolved in the affirmative, accordingly, and Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PACIFIC CABLE BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

SCOTTISH SMALL HOLDINGS.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government whether the figures given in the public Press in connection with the Auditor-General's review of the Board of Agriculture's Accounts for 1925–26, showing a loss of £139,818 5s. 9d. on the farms managed by the Board include a proportion of
not give their opinion at the present moment upon the merits of the proposal. They have got full liberty to do so, and all I can say, without disrespect to my noble friend Lord Salisbury, is that I hope nobody will be found to imitate his example.
On Question, Whether the word "now" shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 44; Not-Contents, 23.

CONTENTS.

Bedford, D.

Hampden, V.

Meldrum, L. (M. Huntly.)

Sutherland, D.

Novar, V.

Monson, L.

Wellington, D.

Newton, L. [Teller.]

Askwith, L.

Oranmore and Browne, L. (L. Mereworth.)

Bathurst, E.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Bradford, E.

Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

De La Warr, E.

Dawson of Penn, L.

Derby, E.

Dynevor, L.

Queenborough, L.

Ellesmere, E.

Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

Redesdale, L.

Lindsay, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Ritchie of Dundee, L.

Midleton, E.

Forester, L.

Shandon, L.

Minto, E.

Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

Teynham, L.

Strafford, E.

Hampton, L.

Thomson, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Wavertree, L. [Teller.]

Churchill, V.

Joicey, L.

Wharton, L.

Elibank, V.

Kylsant, L.

Wyfold.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Lawrence, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Salisbury, M. (L. Privy Seal.)

Allendale, V.

Danesfort, L.

Haldane, V.

Darling, L.

Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

Gainford, L.

Normanby, M.

Hemphill, L.

Muir Mackenzie, L.

Buxton, E.

Southwark, L. Bp. [Teller.]

Northington, L. (L. Henley.)

Lucan, E.

Plymouth, E.

Arnold, L.

Parmoor, L.

Russell, E. [Teller.]

Biddulph, L.

Stanmore, L.

Stanhope, E.

Clwyd, L.

Templemore, L.

the cost of the Board of Agriculture and officials in Edinburgh and Inverness including salaries, travelling expenses and other outlays, and if not, what does the additional loss amount to? The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to ask my Question.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND): My Lords, in reply to the noble Viscount, the accounts to which he refers are those published in the Volume of Trading Accounts and Balance Sheets 1925–6 presented to Parliament on February 14, 1927. As explained at page 78 of the volume the account, from which the figure of £139,818 5s. 9d. is quoted, relates to fifty-seven properties which were acquired by the Board for the purpose of effecting

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the settlement of small holders under the Small Holding Colonies and Land Settlement (Scotland) Acts. In certain cases farms on these properties have been managed by the Board for varying periods for the purpose of preparing the ground, carrying out works of adaptation and equipment, disposing of surplus sheep stocks and other preliminary operations prior to the settlement of holders. The loss of £139,818 5s. 9d. represents the net result for the year ended March 31, 1926, of the Board's intromissions in respect of the whole of these transactions and is not therefore a loss on farm management alone. The cost of acquiring the properties and stock thereon, including sheep stock as well as the cost of providing buildings for the holders and all other items incidental to settlement, and also the appropriate
406
proportion of the salaries and expenses of the Board and their staff engaged on the work are all taken into account in arriving at the final figure.

INDIAN CHURCH BILL. [H.L.]
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, before we adjourn I desire to give notice that the Committee stage of the Indian Church Bill, which is down for next Tuesday, will be postponed. It appears to be convenient to noble Lords sitting opposite that that should be so done and I find it is convenient in other quarters also. I propose, therefore, that the Order shall be postponed from next Tuesday to Tuesday week.
House adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock.

BEDFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report form the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been with-drawm; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 22nd February last and the 17th March last discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next.
BIRKENHEAD EXTENSION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported specially from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported form the Select Committee, with Amendments.
WALLASEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
EAST SURREY WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
COMMERCIAL GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.