Sitting of 5 May 1927

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
London and Home Counties Joint Electricity Authority (No. 2) Bill (by Order),
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

CARDIFF CORPORATION TRAMWAYS PROVI- SIONAL ORDER BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Minister of Transport under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Cardiff Corporation Tramways," presented by Colonel ASHLEY; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 128.]

ALCOHOLIC DRINK (CLUBS).
Captain BOURNE: I ask leave to present a petition from Socialist, political and other clubs in the city of Oxford and district, signed by 1,200 persons, which shows that
"whereas alcoholic drink cannot be supplied on the premises of the aforesaid clubs owing to the provisions of the Licensing Act of 1921, wherefore your petitioners pray your honourable House to consent to such alteration of the law as may be necessary to enable your petitioners themselves to make rules and regulations governing the supply or sale of alcoholic drink as they may deem expedient, and to enable your petitioners to fix both the duration and the incidence of such hours and thus restore to your petitioners that liberty which they have always enjoyed prior to the year of Our Lord One thousand nine hundred and fourteen, and so as in duty bound ever humbly pray."

PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS (GROSS AND NET COST, 1925–26).
Copy ordered "of statement showing the Gross and Net total Cost
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of the Civil Services and Revenue Departments, and the Navy, Army and Air Services, for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1926.—[Mr. R. McNeill.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    MOTHERLESS CHILDREN.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether copies of Circular to war pensions committees, No. 59, of March, 1927, will be placed in the Library for the information of Members; and whether he has consulted his legal advisers on the right of the Ministry of Pensions to withhold part of the pensions of motherless children and Section 9 children?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): In regard to the first part of the question, I shall be pleased to meet the hon. Member's suggestion. In regard to the second part of the question, the answer is in the affirmative.

    FINAL AWARDS.
    Sir BASIL PETOasked the Minister of Pensions what is the percentage of total pensions cases which have been stabilised by final awards; and whether he can form any estimate of the date by which all pensioners will have been granted final awards?
    Major TRYON: Of the aggregate number of officers and men at present in receipt of disability pension or allowance under the Warrants, 338,000 have received final awards, while 174,000 are still in receipt of conditional or temporary pension. A substantial proportion of the latter figure consists of cases in which, owing to the special conditions of the case, it has been found that a final award could not, in the officer's or man's interests, be equitably made, and indeed in some of these cases it may never be possible to do so. I regret I cannot form any estimate of the date by which all cases in which a final award could

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    properly be made will have been so dealt with.

    ATTACHMENT FOR DEBT.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Minister of Pensions whether the attention of his Department is called, and, if so, how frequently, to attempts to attach any part of the pensions of disabled men for debt; and whether in all such cases the legal position is made quite clear to all concerned?
    Major TRYON: Applications are occasionally made for the purpose of attaching the pension of an officer or man for civil debt, but, unless (as is very rarely the case) there is statutory authority for this course, these applications are invariably rejected, the practice being to inform the applicant that the Minister is precluded by Statute from granting his application.

    WAR PENSION COMMITTEES (AREAS).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the Minister of Pensions the number of occasions on which the local war pension committees have been consulted before change has taken place in their areas, and the number of occasions on which the recommendations of the local war pension committees have been accepted and acted upon?
    Major TRYON: I assume that the hon. Member refers to changes in the medical arrangements in the areas of local war pensions committees. For the reasons stated in my reply to him of the 28th March it is not the practice to consult local committees in regard to these arrangements.

  EDUCATION.

    HANDICRAFT TEACHERS, LONDON.
    Colonel DAYasked the President of the Board of Education the number of handicraft teachers that have been appointed for the county of London for the 12 months ended to the last convenient date?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of EDUCATION (Duchess of Atholl): My right hon. Friend understands that 13 handicraft
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    teachers were appointed by the county council during the year ended Easter, 1927.
    Colonel DAY: Is it intended to relax certain of the academic qualifications required of these teachers?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: I have to ask for notice of that question.

    BUILDING EXPENDITURE.
    Captain CROOKSHANKasked the President of the Board of Education what is the estimate of expenditure on schools and other educational buildings this year; and what were the corresponding figures in the last financial year?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: My right hon. Friend is sending my hon. and gallant Friend a statement showing the proposals for capital expenditure approved by the Board for a series of years up to the year ended 31st March, 1926, when the amount of such approved proposals was £6,015,215. For the year ended 31st March, 1927, the corresponding amount was £5,938,763. My right hon. Friend is afraid that he cannot at this date form any reliable estimate of the probable figures for the year ending March next.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: In view of the need for a reduction in current expenditure, will the Noble Lady ask her right hon. Friend to consider the possibility of financing the building expenditure of schools by means of loans with a sinking fund?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: These proposals are all financed by loans.

    TOOTING GRAVEYARD.
    Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Health what steps his Department has taken to prevent burials taking place in the Tooting parish church graveyard; and whether instructions have been given that further burials in this graveyard shall be stopped?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Chamberlain): It seemed desirable to hold a public inquiry before deciding to close any portion of the churchyard, and this inquiry will be held on the 20th instant.
    Colonel DAY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that a graveyard of this

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    kind which exposes coffins to the public view after burial should be closed at once, especially in view of the fact that many complaints have come in direct from the authorities?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No. My view is that there should be an inquiry first.

    AGRICULTURAL LAND.
    Sir JOHN POWERasked the Minister of Health what acreage of land has ceased to be assessable as agricultural land under the Agricultural Rates Act since 31st March, 1919?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I regret that the desired information is not in my possession, but I would point out to my hon. Friend that particulars of the acreage under Crops and Grass in England and Wales are given in the "Agricultural Statistics" issued annually by the Ministry of Agriculture.

  POOR LAW.

    CASUAL WARDS.
    Mr. FREDERICK ROBERTSasked the Minister of Health, (1) whether in case of an influx of casuals exceeding the accommodation of the ward, the master is authorised by regulation to give them tickets on lodging houses for lodging and food or, if not, in what way is he to provide for them; and under what order or circular is the master empowered to act in such cases;
    (2) whether he will modify Article 9 of the Casual Poor (Relief) Order 25, so as to allow the master to shorten the period of detention prescribed by that order for casuals if such detention will cause, or is likely to cause, overcrowding of the ward, or will involve, or is likely to involve, emergency arrangements sun as to render it impossible to give to the casual the proper sleeping accommodation, bed and night clothing, as is required by Article 16 and 7 of that Order.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: A master of a workhouse is not in any case authorised to issue tickets on lodging houses for persons holding orders of admission to a casual ward. His duty is to make emergency arrangements for all such persons. In the event of the position being such that suitable emergency arrangements
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    cannot be made, he should communicate with the relieving officer, who has authority to issue such tickets in the cases which cannot be accommodated in the institution. I have no reason to suppose that serious difficulties in regard to this matter have arisen on account of the terms of the Casual Poor (Relief) Order, 1925, and I do not consider that any modification of the Order is required.

    RELIEF (URGENT CASES).
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Health whether he has received any recommendations from boards of guardians that, in view of the abolition of the office of overseer, the chairmen of parish councils and parish meetings should be authorised to grant relief in sudden and urgent cases; and what action he proposes to take in this matter?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have recceived some recommendations to the effect suggested, but I see no reason for altering the present arrangement originally recommended to me by the Poor Law Unions Association under which the functions of the overseers in respect of the conditions referred to have been transferred to the relieving officer.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that urgent cases may arise a long way from a relieving officer?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Well, Sir, I am keeping the matter under consideration, but I have no reason to suppose at present that any difficulty may be experienced.

    MENTAL DEFECTIVES (LEICESTER HOME).
    Mr. EVERARDasked the Minister of Health whether he has received any notification by the council of the city of Leicester of their intention to open a home for mentally defective children in the parish of Birstall; and whether, seeing that this is a rapidly developing residential district, he will see that the home is situated in some less populated part of the county?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I understand that the Leicester Mental Deficiency Committee are considering taking a house at Birstall for a short term for a small

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    number of children pending the extension of their main institution, but the proposal has not yet been officially submitted.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that, rather than offend the susceptibilities of the people in this aristocratic neighbourhood, children shall be exterminated rather than give any offence?
    Mr. EVERARD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not an aristocratic neighbourhood, but one where the majority of the residents belong to the working classes?

  HOUSING.

    PARLOUR HOUSES (CONTRACT PRICES).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health how the contract price for parlour houses now compares with the price before the announcement of the reduction of the subsidy?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The average price of parlour type houses included in contracts let by local authorities during the three months ended in March last was £490, as compared with an average price of £513 for the previous December quarter.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Am I right in assuming that, on the whole, the reduction of the subsidy has resulted in the reduction of contract prices?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I did not quite put it in that way, but it is certainly a fact that the price of houses has come down.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Housing Committee of the London County Council has reported in an exactly opposite sense to what he has just said?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the hon. Member has a question on the Paper on the point.
    Commander WILLIAMS: Is the right lion. Gentleman aware that his policy has been more successful than that of any of his predecessors?

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' EXPENDITURE.
    Mr. MONTAGUEasked the Minister of Health the amounts expended
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    each year by local authorities in England and Wales under the various post-War housing schemes?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 14th March to the hon. Member for Aston, in which were given particulars of the expenditure on housing of local authorities in England and Wales for each year from 1918–1919 to 1924–1925. The bulk of expenditure on housing during those years was incurred under powers contained in Acts passed since the War.

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Minister of Health whether, to facilitate public convenience, he anticipates being able to state the Government policy on the future of the Rent Restrictions Act before Parliament is prorogued for the Summer Recess?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir.

  TRANSPORT.

    STEAM VEHICLES (BOILER TESTS).
    Mr. SANDEMANasked the Home Secretary whether road vehicles propelled by steam are subject to the usual tests as to their boiler efficiency?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel W. Ashley): I have been asked to answer this question. I am not aware of any official tests of the boilers of road vehicles propelled by steam.

    MERSEY TUNNEL.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Minister of Transport whether any representations have been made to him in the matter of the location of the tunnel entrance and approaches on the Liverpool side of the Mersey; and, if so, whether he has any statement to make?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have received representations in favour of a modification of the position of the tunnel entrance on the Liverpool side of the Mersey, but I understand that the Mersey Tunnel Joint Committee after careful consideration have resolved to adhere to the plan fixed by the Mersey Tunnel Act, 1925, and I have no reason to question the wisdom of that decision.
    Mr. HAYES: Am I to understand that the decision to have the tunnel entrance in the Whitechapel area has been adhered to, or am I to understand that there is some change?
    Colonel ASHLEY: My information is that the Committee have, after careful consideration, resolved to adhere to the plan fixed by the Act.
    Mr. HAYES: Will the right hon. Gentleman have some inquiry made locally as to the strength of public opinion which is against the original decision in regard to this matter of the tunnel opening?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think I must leave that to the decision of the Tunnel Joint Committee.

    RAILWAYS (ELECTRIFICATION).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Transport how many miles of main railway line have been electrified in Great Britain; and whether plans have been prepared for the electrification of other portions of the main line railway system?
    Colonel ASHLEY: As at the 31st December, 1926, the latest date for which complete information is available, 946 track miles of the railway lines of the four Amalgamated Companies, were worked either wholly or partly by electric traction. In addition, 295 track miles of railways belonging to other companies, mainly operating in London, were worked by electric traction on that date. As regards the last part of the question, I understand that the principal railway companies have the question of railway electrification constantly before them.
    Mr. R. MORRISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the figures he has given include some portion of the lines of the main line railways?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have given the hon. Member the total amount of the lines of the four amalgamated companies.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman encouraging the railway companies to proceed with this very important work of electrification?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I should very warmly welcome any extension of electrification.
    Major CRAWFURD: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any figure as to the number of miles of main railway lines; I mean main railway lines which cover long distance traffic?
    Colonel ASHLEY: If the hon. Member will put that question down, I will get the information.
    Mr. HARDIE: In view of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman that he would be glad to help forward the work of electrification, may I ask whether he or the Government are taking steps to prevent combines and profiteering companies from holding up prices, thereby preventing the work from going on smoothly and quickly?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I do not accept the statement of the hon. Member as being correct.
    Mr. HARDIE: What about the Southern Railway?

    POLICE (FIRST-AID OUTFITS).
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many small field-dressing outfits have been supplied to the mounted police in the Metropolitan police area for the purpose of first-aid; whether first-aid is also rendered where necessary to horses in the streets of London; what is the cost of these outfits; and on how many occasions they have been used to the last convenient date?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): No field-dressing outfits have yet been supplied but 300 dressings have been ordered. It is proposed that mounted police shall render first-aid where necessary to horses in the streets if the driver consents. The cost is £12.
    Colonel DAY: How many of these officers have first-aid certificates?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I cannot say without notice.
    Colonel DAY: If these officers have not got first-aid certificates, will the right hon. Gentleman see that they have a course of training in first-aid before they attempt to use field dressings for the horses?
    Mr. MARCH: Is it to be the custom that the driver is to ask the officer to assist before any assistance will be given?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No. An officer who sees an injured horse will offer his assistance.

    VEHICLES (SMOKE EMISSION).
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Home Secretary whether he will give the date on which he issued his instructions to the police with regard to smoke, steam, and sparks from motor lorries; and whether he will state the number of cases in which drivers and owners have been warned and the number of cases in which further action has been taken?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The memorandum which I promised to issue was sent to all chief officers of police on 10th March last, but I regret that I have no information as to the action which they may have taken throughout the country since that date.
    Mr. BAKER: Seeing that no improvement has taken place with regard to this complaint, will the right hon. Gentleman cause inquiries to be made?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: We have only had six weeks yet. I think the hon. Member might give a little time to see the effect of the Circular. He can call my attention to it again in the course of the Session.

    SOLICITATION LAWS.
    Sir PATRICK FORDasked the Home Secretary whether the proposed inquiry into the solicitation laws will be extended to Scotland as well as England; and if Scotland will be given representation on the committee or, if a committee representative of both countries is considered impracticable, will a Scottish committee be appointed?
    Dr. DRUMMOND SHIELSasked the Home Secretary if the proposed departmental committee on the solicitation laws will include Scotland in its sphere of inquiry; will Scotland be given representation on the committee; and, if that is not considered practicable, will a separate Scottish committee be appointed?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is intended that the proposed inquiry should extend to Scotland and that a person residing in Scotland should be appointed to the committee.
    Mr. RHYS-DAVIES: Will a representative from Wales be on the Committee as well?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If it is necessary.

    LICENSING HOURS.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Home Secretary whether the Government is conducting any inquiry into the whole question of licensing, other than the Southborough investigation; and, if not, whether it proposes to conduct any such inquiry as regards hours in general?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As to the second part, I am not in a position to commit myself in any way at the present time.
    Mr. LOOKER: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the Southborough Report to be presented?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As a matter of fact I have it now and hope to present it in a few days.

    HYDE PARK PROCESSION (MUNICIPAL VEHICLES).
    Sir BASIL PETOasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that on Sunday, 1st May, dust-carts and water-carts belonging to the ratepayers of the Boroughs of Bethnal Green and Deptford were used in the Socialist procession to Hyde Park for the conveyance of children and others; and whether he will consider the introduction of legislation to prevent this growing practice of using the ratepayers' property for political purposes?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no official information in this matter. My hon. Friend is aware that the accounts of the metropolitan boroughs come under review by the district auditor and the case instanced does not seem to me of sufficient importance to warrant further legislation.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that, if dust-carts are to be used for children to ride in, the dust-carts shall be first disinfected?
    Mr. W. THORNE: They are as clean as you are.

    TENDERS.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that both the Housing Committee of the London County Council and the Manchester Corporation have recently reported that they have not discovered any reduction in prices tendered for the building of houses following the publication of his Order giving notice of certain reductions in the housing subsidy; if he has any evidence to show that the reduction in tender prices which he anticipated has taken place; and, if not, will he, in view of the urgent need for houses which still exists, reconsider the question of reducing the subsidy?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: According to the monthly returns furnished to my Department by local authorities, no contracts for the erection of subsidy houses under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924 have been let by the London County Council since the date of the publication of the Order reducing the housing subsidy, and it is not therefore possible for me to make a comparison in the case of this authority. As regards Manchester, I find that prices of houses included in contracts let in January last were 6d. per superficial foot less for non-parlour and 3d. per superficial foot less for parlour type houses than prices obtained for houses in October last.
    As regards the country generally, the average prices of non-parlour houses in contracts let by local authorities during the quarter ended March last was £425 as compared with £448 for the quarter ended December, 1926, and £443 for the quarter ended September, 1926. It will be seen that these figures afford no ground for reconsidering the decision to reduce the subsidy.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is it not a fact that the London County Council contracts are based on the cost, plus percentage?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the hon. Member could not have heard what I
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    said. The London County Council have not let any contracts.
    Mr. HARRIS: But the county council is not doing its work on the contract basis, but on cost, plus percentage.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the cubic space per room is exactly the same?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the price is given per cubic foot in the price I gave, that does not arise.

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (MASSAGE AND ELECTRICAL TREATMENT).
    Mr. BOWERMANasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the recommendation of the Royal Commission on National Health Insurance that massage and electrical treatment be added to the list of additional benefits, he will consider the desirability of promoting a scheme whereby such treatment may be obtainable without difficulty for insured persons if and when the treatment has been prescribed for them?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: In the event of massage and electrical treatment being added to the list of additional benefits, I should be prepared to give all possible assistance to approved societies, with the object of securing for their members the opportunity of obtaining the necessary treatment under satisfactory conditions and on reasonable terms. I should, however, point out that before any Regulation could be made adding the treatment in question to the list of additional benefits, I should have to be satisfied that a reasonable number of societies desired to amend their existing schemes of additional benefits and to divert to massage and electrical treatment some of the money at present allocated to other treatment benefits.
    Mr. PALING: Is not the main reason why these additional benefits are not added to the list that the Chancellor of the Exchequer purloined the money some time ago?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, there is no foundation for that.
    Mr. PALING: You know there is.

    FIGHTING SERVICES (PENSIONS).
    Sir J. POWERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the sum to be provided in future years in respect of pensions charged on the defence Votes is likely to increase or to decrease; and what the total is expected to be next year?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): An increase is to be expected in the amounts likely to be required in the next few years for providing the pensions borne on the Votes of the Fighting Services. A rough estimate of the increase in 1928 over 1927 is £112,000.

    WAR COMMITMENTS (EXPENDITURE).
    Sir J. POWERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total estimated expenditure during the current year in respect of all transient expenditure and liquidation of War commitments, and the estimated total of such expenditure during each of the next three years?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: My hon. Friend will find the main remanet War and expiring charges for 1927 (other than the continuing liability for War pensions) grouped in Class IX of the Civil Estimates at a net total of £786,510. There are a few other items in other parts of those Estimates, but these would not amount to more than £150,000. A sum of £276,800 is provided for terminal War charges on Army and Air Force Votes. I cannot give a precise estimate of the future expenditure at present, but no substantial variation in the largest. Vote (Australian Zinc Concentrates) is to be anticipated until the War time contracts governing the service expire in 1930.

    NATIONAL DEBT.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total addition to the National Debt since the War caused by the issue of loans at a discount or the redemption of loans at a premium; and to what extent is this addition counterbalanced by the amount of debt redeemed by means of Budget surpluses or from other sources?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraphs 143 and 146 of the Colwyn Committee's Report, which substantially answers his questions.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Is it not a fact that, apart from the £47,000,000 therein referred to, it is not a direct saving on a Budget operation to make a Ways and Means transaction?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Member will see that and other matters dealt with in the Colwyn Report.

    INTER-ALLIED DEBTS.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which Allied Governments made the loans referred to on page 5 of the Financial Statement amounting to £135,700,000; whether any interest is being, or has been, paid on these loans; and whether they are all likely to be set off against loans made to the same Governments?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer my hon. Friend to page 81 of the Finance Accounts, 1925–26 (Command Paper No. 90); Article 7 of the French War Debt Agreement (Command Paper No. 2692) and Article 7 of the Italian War Debt Agreement (Command Paper No. 2580). Interest is not paid on these sums.

    WAR RECEIPTS AND PAYMENTS.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD - BURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether His Majesty's Government is taking any steps with regard to the widely published statements of Mr. Mellon in the matter of the inter-Allied debts?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: His Majesty's Government have addressed a communication to the United States Government on the subject, the terms of which were published this morning.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mr. Mellon has again repeated the statement that we are receiving more from Allied countries than we are paying to the United States, and that these statements have done very great harm to our interests in France and Italy?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Well, Sir, both in speech in this House and by formal Note we have placed our views on these transactions on record, and I am quite sure nothing lies in our power to take any other step than the steps we have taken.
    Major COLFOX: Has the Government denial received great publicity in the United States Press, and if this is not so cannot steps be taken to ensure this?
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity, or an early opportunity, of drawing the attention of the American people to the American debts still due to bond-holders in this country?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that all these matters do obtain great publicity, and from some points of view that publicity is regrettable, but I do not see how in the circumstances which have arisen we could have avoided taking the steps we have taken.
    Sir FRANK NELSON: Will the correspondence be published in a White Paper?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: What correspondence?
    Sir F. NELSON: The Note of His Majesty's Government and the reply they have received?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It will certainly be published, but whether it will be necessary to lay a White Paper or not we shall see later on.
    Captain CROOKSHANK: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a recent letter in the "Times" by the Bishop of Gibraltar, and will he see to it that publicity is given throughout Europe, at any rate, to our Note in reply to Mr. Mellon?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think it will obtain a full measure of publicity but we cannot do more than state publicly the view which this country takes. No doubt other views may be stated in contradiction of it, but the world must judge and public opinion must judge outside of this House and inside it.

  INCOME TAX.

    CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
    Mr. TREVELYANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what, on the assumption that the technical difficulties can be overcome, the cost would be to the Treasury of a similar concession being granted to voluntary contributors to the Pensions Act Fund in regard to Income Tax as that already enjoyed by compulsory contributors to the same fund?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I regret I am unable to furnish the desired estimate.

    IRISH FREE STATE.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the arrangements made last year with the Irish Free State with regard to double Income Tax have been working satisfactorily; and whether any complaints have been received and any alterations are contemplated, or whether he proposes to carry on the present arrangements with the Free State indefinitely?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The double Income Tax arrangements with the Irish Free State are working satisfactorily, and I have no present intention of proposing any alteration of their basic principles. The introduction of the new scheme was inevitably attended by certain difficulties of procedure, which may have given rise to complaints but which are being dealt with effectively.

    SUPER-TAX (SPECIAL COMMISSIONERS).
    Mr. SANDEMAN ALLENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the promised simplification of procedure in connection with Income Tax and the adoption of the same one year for income Tax and Super-tax, it is proposed to continue a special department with Special Commissioners for Super-tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Under the new scheme of simplification which I am proposing, the assessment of the supplementary instalment of Income Tax, to be called Sur-tax, in the case of the larger taxpayers will be carried out, as in the case of the present Super-tax, by the Special Commissioners of Income Tax. My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that this system of centralised administration involves the

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    maintenance of a special department. The additional staff employed under the Special Commissioners is not greater than the additional staff which would be required under a decentralised system.

    EX-SERVICE MEN (KING'S ROLL).
    Mr. ERNEST BROWNasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many Government Departments and Government industrial establishments are on the King's Roll?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): The name of His Majesty's Treasury is included in the King's Roll on behalf of all Government Departments and Government industrial establishments.
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, out of the total of 3,800 local authorities throughout the country, 2,300 are not on the King's Roll?
    Mr. McNEILL: I was not aware of that fact.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    ASSESSORS AND COLLECTORS OF TAXES.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether it is proposed at an early date to take steps to give to the assessors and collectors of taxes the same security of tenure that is enjoyed by other civil servants?
    Mr. McNEILL: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave last Monday to a similar question by the hon. Member for Devonport, of which I am sending his a copy.

    WRITING ASSISTANTS AND WOMEN CLERKS (NEW ENTRANTS).
    Sir B. PETOasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, in the examinations held in March and May of this year, the new entrants in the writing assistant class and women's clerical officer class will be limited to the number required to cover only the actual wastage vacancies on the permanent side of the staff; and, if not, what is the number of additional permanent civil servants it is intended to admit?
    Mr. McNEILL: A number of writing assistants from the examination held in March last will be required to deal with the additional work arising out of the award of Old Age Pensions as from 1st January next under the Contributory Pensions Act, as well as to fill wastage vacancies. It is anticipated that the new entrants from the examination for clerical officer posts in the women's branches will be required almost entirely to fill wastage vacancies, but I am not yet in a position to state how many candidates will be assigned to Departments as a result of these examinations, or to give details of their allocation, which must be influenced by the detailed arrangements for giving effect to the policy of restricting new entrants to the Civil Service, which are now under consideration.
    Sir B. PETO: Will it not be possible to find among the vast number of civil servants in all Departments some whose services can be dispensed with where they are now, and who could carry on the administration of the new duties referred to, instead of admitting new entrants into the Civil Service.
    Mr. McNEILL: All these facts are taken into consideration and the best possible arrangements with regard to these new duties are being made.

    DEPORTATIONS TO IRELAND (LAW OFFICERS' FEES).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any Law Officer of the Crown received fees or other emoluments arising out of the illegal deportations to Ireland in 1923; and, if so, what were the amounts and to whom paid?
    Mr. McNEILL: Yes, Sir. The sum of £521 19s. 6d. was paid to the Attorney-General, and £127 6s. to the Solicitor-General.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say who got the balance of the £9,000 referred to in the White Paper?
    Mr. McNEILL: I cannot say that offhand, but if my hon. Friend will put down a question I will try to get the information.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: If the principle were established of not paying for bad advice from the Crown, would not the nation save all the salaries of right hon. Gentlemen?

    CONDENSED MILK (IMPORTS).
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give approximate figures showing the numbers of millions of tons of machine-skimmed condensed milk that are coming into this country; whether he is aware that this separated condensed milk, which comes so readily to this country, is refused in every other country, including the country in which it is produced; and whether he can take steps to hold an inquiry to see whether steps should be taken to prevent its use in this country?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have been asked to reply. The imports of machine skimmed condensed milk in 1926 were approximately 88,000 tons. I am not aware that the importation of this article is prohibited in any country except Chile, Cuba and certain British Colonies and Protectorates, nor, so far as I know, is its sale prohibited in any of the countries in which it is principally produced.
    As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton, on the 28th April.
    Mr. PALING: Is not the main reason why this tinned milk has such a large sale in this country the low wages which are paid, and that the people cannot afford to buy real milk?
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this milk is produced under conditions similar to those which are laid down under the Milk and Dairies Order?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is it not true that no matter what the wages are they could buy the milk if they were not so busy buying beer?

    UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT DISALLOWED, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. E. BROWNasked the Minister of Labour the number of insured persons
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    disallowed unemployed benefit in Scotland in the first four months of 1927, on the grounds that they have not had a reasonable period of insurable employment during the preceding two years?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): During the four months ended 11th April, 1927, 20,973 applications for extended benefit were recommended for disallowance by local employment committees in Scotland on the ground that the applicants had not had a reasonable period of insurable employment in the preceding two years.
    Mr. BROWN: Have the Ministry of Labour any figures to show what happens to these men after they come off the allowance for benefit, whether they are followed up in any way or whether they are left to the mercy of the parish councils and the boards of guardians?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, Sir, I have none.

    CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has formed any estimate of the additional staff required, both at his office and as inspectors outside, to manage and control the cinematograph industry under the Government Bill; and whether the Overseas Trade Department officials are to form the nucleus of the new Department?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I have no doubt that the necessary duties can be discharged by a very small addition to the existing staff of the Board of Trade. There will be no new Department, and the second part of the question, consequently, does not arise.
    Colonel WEDGWOODAm I to understand that, if the Overseas Trade Department is dissolved, these officials will have prior opportunity of getting the new jobs?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have already said that there will be few, if any, new jobs, therefore, I am afraid that the competitors will be disappointed.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Can I suggest a method by which this scheme be administered without any additional cost?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I should be glad to have any such suggestion.

  SCOTLAND.

    HOUSING (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' EXPENDITURE).
    Mr. MONTAGUEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the amounts expended each year by local authorities in Scotland under the various post-War housing schemes?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): The necessary information is being extracted, but will not be available for a day or two. I will communicate the figures to the hon Member as soon as possible.

    MEDICAL OFFICER (STRATH, SKYE).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the prolonged correspondence between the Parish Council of Strath, Skye, and the Scottish Board of Health relative to a dispute over the continuance of the present medical officer for the parish in his appointment, and that the council has intimated its unanimous intention of resigning unless it is given freedom of action in terminating the present appointment and in securing possession of the house tenanted by the present medical officer for the parish; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am aware of the present circumstances of the medical service in the parish of Strath and have myself been in correspondence with the parish council in the matter. By Section 3 (5) of the Highlands and Islands (Medical Service) Grant Act, 1913, the parish medical officer cannot be dismissed from his post without the consent of the Scottish Board of Health. In pursuance of their duty under that Section the Board ordered an inquiry into the medical service in this parish and appointed a senior member of the Scottish Bar as Special Commissioner for that purpose. The Commissioner found that certain professional charges brought against the
    1760
    parish medical officer had not been substantiated and ought never to have been made, and also that there was no other ground on which his dismissal from the parish appointment would be justified. After consideration of the Commissioner's Report the Board decided that this was a case which clearly called for the protection afforded to parish medical officers in the Highland and Islands by the Section referred to, and I entirely concur in that decision.

    LAND SETTLEMENT (STORNOWAY).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that several ex-service men applied for holdings at the village of Sandwick, outside Stornoway, about two years ago, and that the land in question was cultivated until 20 years ago, but is now overgrown with rushes and wild grass; and whether he proposes to take any steps to permit this land to be cultivated?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I have no information as to the past or present condition of the land. It consists of parks which could only be made available for land settlement by agreement with the proprietors who, on being approached by the Board, declined to agree to the scheme proposed. The applicants were informed accordingly. A year ago inquiry was made by 20 applicants at Sandwick as to whether in the event of the proprietors granting permission for the breaking-up of the parks the Board would grant them loans for the erection of buildings. The Board replied that they would be prepared to consider favourably applications for limited loans for the purpose, but no further communication has been received by them on the subject.

    SMALL HOLDINGS (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
    Sir HARRY HOPEasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he proposes to set up a Committee to inquire into the settlement of smallholders in Scotland; and, if so, if he can give the names of the Committee?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The reply is in the affirmative. The names of the Committee are as follow:

    Sir J. Gordon Nairne, Baronet, Director, late Controller of the Bank of England.

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    Mr. J. R. Campbell, formerly Assistant Secretary to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland.

    Mr. J. F. Duncan, General Secretary of the Scottish Farm Servants' Union.

    Mr. Norman Reid, formerly member of the Scottish Land Court.

    Mr. John Speir, Chairman of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland.

    Secretary, Mr. W. N. McWilliam, Board of Agriculture for Scotland, Edinburgh.

    The terms of reference to the Committee are as follow:
    "To inquire into the settlement of smallholders in Scotland under the Small. Landholders and Land Settlement (Scotland) Acts, with a view to reporting upon the cost incurred by the State in carrying out such settlement; the value of the results achieved both economic and social; the defects, if any, in the procedure under the said Acts with suggestions for such amendments as the Committee may deem expedient; the desirability of devolving upon local authorities any of the powers and duties under the said Acts; and whether any amendment of the law is desirable as regards the valuation for rating of small holdings within the meaning of the said Acts."
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is satisfied that there is a single member of this Committee who is favourable to the cause of small holdings?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: These gentlemen have been selected from the point of view of their knowledge of the circumstances, and, as far as is humanly possible, from the point of view of their impartiality.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Is it not the fact that Mr. Duncan has publicly stated that he is against small holdings?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no knowledge of that, but he is the only representative of a large class of the agricultural labourers in Scotland and is chosen for that reason.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the people on this Committee are in favour of small holdings or not?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no knowledge. The reference is clear, and they have to inquire into the circumstances of the whole subject and report.

    ANGLO-RUSSIAN RELATIONS.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Prime Minister whether he has received any offer from the Soviet Government to the effect, as stated by M. Rykov, President of the Council of Peoples' Commissars, that the Soviet Government hold it desirable and possible to remove by negotiations the present strained Anglo Russian relations; and whether His Majesty's Government has sent or intend making any response to such offer?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, there, has been no change in this respect since I answered a similar question by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taylor) on the 8th of December of last year.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the Under-Secretary seen the speech of Mr. Rykov on this subject in which he makes the offer?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Yes, but until the Soviet Government really show that they are prepared to stop their propaganda against this country I do not think it is really any use trying to enter into negotiations with them.
    Commander WILLIAMS: Can the Under-Secretary say whether the perpetual increase of Soviet armaments is any evidence that they wish for peace?
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Soviet Government have ever withdrawn their repudiation of British private and public debts?
    Major COLFOX: Will the Under-Secretary use what endeavours he can to persuade Members of the Opposition to influence their friends in Russia to behave like civilised people?
    Mr. MONTAGUE: May I ask whether the Under-Secretary is taking into account the entry of Russia into the Economic Conference at Geneva as an indication of the desire of that country to enter into more harmonious relations with other countries?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is another question, of which notice should be given.

    COAL (OIL EXTRACTION).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary for Mines whether his Department has any information in its possession as to whether the process of extracting oil from coal is now being carried out on a commercial basis in Germany?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: My right hon. Friend has been asked to reply to this question on behalf of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. There are several processes of extracting oil from coal. Tar, from which oils are produced, is obtained commercially in gasworks, etc., in Germany, as in this country. Low-temperature carbonisation processes have long been employed for the extraction of oil from brown coals in Germany. It is understood that oil is now also being produced on a commercial scale in Germany by the hydrogenation of brown coal.
    Mr. PALING: Is the Noble Lady aware that three years ago a Report was issued through the research station, to the effect that this question was rapidly approaching the point when it would be a commercial success in this country, and what is the reason why it has made no headway recently; are we going to be left behind by other countries?
    The Duchess of ATHOLL: I must have notice of that question.
    Mr. HARDIE: Is the Noble Lady aware of the fact that low temperature is not a commercial process only because the vested interests in this country prevent its development?

    MALTA (MR. MAHAFFY).
    Sir GERALD STRICKLANDasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the withdrawal of Mr. Mahaffy from being legal adviser in Malta to the military authorities, the Air Force, and the Navy, and the withdrawal of £200 from Army funds coupled therewith, his salary payable by direction of the Secretary of State at £1,200 a year will remain the same under reserved services; and whether another legal adviser will he appointed to advise in naval, military, and Air Force matters?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): The answer
    1764
    to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative. The second part is a matter for the Department concerned.
    Sir G. STRICKLAND: May I ask the reasons for which an official appointed by the Colonial Office should continue to receive the same pay after a notable diminution of his work; whether he is responsible for the legal complications from which my right hon. Friend has informed this House he is seeking a way out by endeavouring to draft a special reference before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; and, further, whether he has as yet been successful in formulating the terms of this reference?
    Mr. AMERY: The official is receiving the proper salary fixed for the work by the Maltese Government. The other questions are much too wide for me to answer now.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House exactly who pays the salary of this legal officer?
    Mr. AMERY: He is paid by the Maltese Government, as part of the expenditure of Malta.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: If the right hon. Gentleman or his Department have any power to reduce or increase the salary of this legal official, should they not pay something towards the salary?
    Mr. AMERY: That is an arguable point.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    CAVALRY.
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the Secretary of State for War, having regard to the urgent need for economy and the ineffectiveness of cavalry in modern warfare, if he will consider the desirability of disbanding the Royal Horse Guards and eight cavalry regiments of the line; and whether he is aware that, if this was done, after allowing for retired pay and such compensation as may be payable in respect of the termination of engagements in the public interests, the annual saving would be not less than £700,000?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King): No, Sir.
    Mr. CONNOLLY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether, after the enthusiastic interest shown in the question of economy in this House last night, he is taking any means to effect any economies in his own Department?
    Colonel APPLIN: May I ask whether it is not the fact that the cavalry were mainly responsible for the success of General Allenby's campaign in Palestine?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is rather too wide a subject for a supplementary question.

    GUN PRACTICE (KINGHORN).
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to complaints on the part of owners of house property at Kinghorn, Fifeshire, of damage arising out of heavy-gun practice at Kinghornness battery; and if he is in a position to consider sympathetically reasonable claims for unavoidable damage or, alternatively, to arrange for the carrying out of gun practice at a greater distance from inhabited houses?
    Captain KING: The hon. Member recently brought one complaint to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and was informed by him, in reply, that he was unable to admit any liability for damage which may result from firing unless there are abnormal circumstances or it can be shown that there has been negligence, but that every endeavour is made to minimise the inconvenience to the public.
    Mr. KENNEDY: Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this is a matter of long-standing grievance in this district; and that there as plenty of room elsewhere for gun practice without disturbing these people?
    Captain KING: I am not aware of that. The only case brought to our notice is the case brought by the hon. Member himself. I understand that the claim made by his constituents, as to the extent of the damage, is less than 10s.
    Mr. KENNEDY: There is no specific reference to any single complaint, but I have repeatedly brought complaints of a similar character to the notice of the War Office during recent years.
    Captain KING: Firing at targets is a military necessity, and the Department take every precaution, give due notice and try to cause as little inconvenience as possible to the public.

  CHINA.

    HANKOW (BRITISH FIRMS).
    Mr. BARKERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any British firms have resumed business relations in the area controlled by the Hankow Government, as a result of the orders of that Government and the regulations published by the Hupeh General Labour Union forbidding strikes and disturbances on the part of employés of foreign firms?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I cannot add anything to the information contained in the reply returned to the hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) yesterday.

    SOVIET DOCUMENTS, PEKING (SEIZURE).
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publish the list found in Soviet premises in Peking of foreign newspapers subsidised by extremists to attack British interests in China?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I do not at present know what has been found or how much of what was found will be published by the Peking Government. Until I am in possession of that publication I can add nothing to the reply returned to my hon. and gallant Friend yesterday.

    MURDER OF CANADIAN SUBJECTS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information about the alleged murder of Mr. Slitcher, of the China Inland Mission, and his daughter, and the attack on the remainder of his family and on a Roman Catholic priest, on their way to Yunnan-Fu from Shih-Tsung, on 9th April last; if he has information showing by whom these Canadian subjects were murdered; and whether he is making a demand for satisfaction and reparation?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member

    1767
    for Central Southwark (Colonel Day) on 2nd May. Telegrams have since reached me reporting that Mrs. Slichter and the child have been released and that the party arrived safely at Yunnanfu on 30th April. Pending the receipt of a full report, and consideration of the matter by His Majesty's Government in Canada, I am unable to make any statement on the last part of the question.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: if it is right for us to demand satisfaction for outrages in Nanking, which is controlled by the Kuominatang, why do we not demand satisfaction in a barbarous case of this kind where Northern troops were concerned?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I have not said that we will not demand satisfaction. I have said we are waiting for a full report on the subject. We are also in communication with the Canadian Government.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will the hon. Gentleman be kind enough to let me know when he has any further information?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Yes.
    Mr. LOOKER: Is it a fact that the particular outrage referred to in this question was carried out by bandits?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I have said I am awaiting a full report on the subject.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a fact that most of our friends in the North are ex-bandits?

    ROTARY CONFERENCE (PASSPORT VISAS).
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state if he is prepared to grant special facilities, as far as visas are concerned, to those citizens of the United States who may attend the Rotary Conference in June?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The matter has been carefully considered, and I regret that it has not been found possible to make any special concession to these gentlemen.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    MECHANICIANS (PROMOTION).
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that only one promotion to Mate E from mechanician has been made since Mate E was introduced, he will, in view of the discouragement which such a fact offers to those in the mechanician branch, take steps to facilitate the opportunities for promotion to rank of Mate E?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): Candidates for Mate (E) may be Warrant Engineers, Warrant Mechanicians, Chief Engine Room Artificers, Engine Room Artificers, Chief Mechanicians or Mechanicians, and the conditions necessary for selection apply equally to all these ranks and ratings. The lack of promotion from Mechanician has therefore been due generally to the higher standard shown by the other classes.

    WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the feeling that Admiralty employés who suffer accidents in the course of their duty do not receive as favourable treatment as if they were in a position to sue under the Workmen's Compensation Act; and whether in these circumstances he will, when there is dissatisfaction, allow the claimant to bring his case into the County Court?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: The reply to both parts of the question is in the negative. I would remind the hon. Member that the Government scheme of compensation framed under the Workmen's Compensation Act is voluntarily accepted by an overwhelming majority of the employés concerned, and that any man has the right of withdrawing from the Government scheme at any time if he gives due notice in writing.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: If the Admiralty considers that its awards are just, what has it to fear from allowing an aggrieved person to bring a claim?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: The Government's scheme is so devised as to avoid, among other things, the necessity of going to the Courts, and the scheme, on the whole, has been found very acceptable.
    Mr. KELLY: Will the hon. Gentleman compare the Government's scheme with the Compensation Act, and inform us of which is the better?
    Mr. THOMAS: In the Government's view is it undesirable that trade matters should go to the Courts?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I have already said that in the opinion of the Government, the scheme is desirable and satisfactory as it stands.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. CLYNES: Will the Prime Minister announce the business for next week?
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): On Monday: Supply, Committee, Scottish Estimates.
Tuesday, Supply, Committee; Ministry of Transport Estimates.
Wednesday until 8.15 and Thursday, Committee stage of the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill and, if time permit, other Orders on the Paper.
Mr. CLYNES: With regard to the business for Monday, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the reports dealing with agriculture and health, affecting Scotland, are not available, and will not be available for Members on Monday. In the circumstances, will not that be a serious handicap in the discussion of these Estimates; and therefore, may I ask him whether he would consent to the continuance of the discussion on the Second Reading of the Trade Unions Bill on Monday? Before the Prime Minister replies to that question, may I also ask him to remember that out of a regular attendance of 500 Members, only 34 Members of all parties have been able to take part in the Debate and, on this side of the House, so far as the Labour party are concerned, there have been only 15 speakers during the discussion up to the present on the Trade Unions Bill?
The PRIME MINISTER: With regard to the business for Monday, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, that matter is not entirely within our province. The question of the Scottish Estimates was selected by the Liberal party and I do
1770
not see how I could, in fairness to them, alter the arrangement. With regard to asking for more time on the Second Reading of the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill, I would make this observation. We have done our best to meet the desires of the party opposite. We have given for the Second Reading within three or four hours of four days. We had originally suggested taking two days, but we were asked to give four. We did our best last night to induce the Members who were successful in the Ballot for Private Members' Motions, to withdraw their claims, but in that we were not successful. We consider we have given the House ample time and, while it is true, I have no doubt, that many Members are desirous of speaking, I have not the same clear evidence that an equal number are desirous of listening.
Mr. CLYNES: I hope that in due time and in the proper place we shall have an opportunity of offering some comment upon the argument with which the Prime Minister concluded his reply. May I put to him this fact; that when his party were in Opposition, in the days of the Home Rule Bill, they were given 10 days for the First and Second Readings of the Home Rule Bill; and considering how far-reaching the present Bill is, touching a far greater population than the population of the whole of Ireland, will he not consider giving more days than the four which have been granted?
The PRIME MINISTER: I would say in answer to that question that I remember the facts perfectly well, but I do not think it would serve any useful purpose to argue the importance of the two Bills. That was before the War and since the War—it may be owing to the fact that speeches, as I think, are rather shorter than they used to be—so far as my memory serves me, I cannot recall any Bill of all the important Bills I remember, in which the Second Reading discussion has been as long as in this case. Although I am quite aware that there has been no agreement—as the right hon. Gentleman knows—about this term, yet it was quite well known what the time was going to be, and we received no request that any alteration should be made until the right hon. Gentleman was courteous enough to send me a note yesterday afternoon.
Mr. CLYNES: Arising out of another part of the answer of the Prime Minister in regard to the Committee stage of the Bill, may I ask him to consider the desirability of not taking the Committee stage until after next week, in view of the fact that it has already been announced by the Government that considerable amendment will have to take place on the initiative of the Government themselves, and that due time, therefore, should be allowed to His Majesty's Opposition to consider fairly those Amendments after they appear on the Order Paper?
The PRIME MINISTER: I always have every desire to suit the convenience of the House in these important matters, but it is only fair to remember that whoever may desire to put down Amendments have had about a month in which to prepare their Amendments, and we are up against time on the one hand and against our own deliberate action on the other hand. We desired to take the Second Reading of the Bill before Easter, but I waived that question, very naturally, in response to the Leader of the Opposition, who had to go abroad, and I postponed the Second Reading till we all had hoped he would be able to be present to take part in the Debate. Most unfortunately, and to the regret of everybody in the House, the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to be in his place. But I am glad to think that, by publishing the Bill as I did before Easter, it has made it quite easy for those who desired to prepare Amendments to do so in ample time for Wednesday.
Mr. CLYNES: If it be true that Members have had about a month in which to prepare their Amendments what becomes of the argument that we did not know what was in this Bill until it was printed?
Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the House to understand that the proposal to take Scottish business on Monday next, in the absence of the Reports which will enable that business to be properly discussed, is not at the instigation of the Government but of the Liberal party?
The PRIME MINISTER: I must point out to the hon. Member, who seems to be, if I may say so, under a little confusion on this point, that it has nothing to do
1772
with us. When this day was asked for by one of the parties opposite whose turn it was, we had nothing to do but to give that day.
Mr. BUCHANAN: In view of the fact that the reports on agriculture and health are necessary for a well-conducted debate on the Scottish Estimates, will the right hon. Gentleman consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland with a view to having those reports printed by Monday next?
The PRIME MINISTER: Let me put this to hon. Members—I know there is a number of Members in the party opposite who come from Scotland—that nothing is easier than to ask for a Scottish debate when they get a day, and they have two days to the Liberals' one. The Liberals, undoubtedly, having asked for that Vote, have some particular subject which they desire to debate. It is probably not the subject which hon. Members of the Labour party wish to debate, otherwise they would have waited for the publication of the documents.
Mr. BUCHANAN: It is true that the Liberal party asked for the day, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that party on one specific subject cannot keep the House going on a whole day? The point I want to put is this, that a number of Scottish Members, including some of his own supporters, will wish to take part in the debate on the other part of the day, and as agriculture is the most important and pressing point, cannot he consult with the Secretary of State for Scotland with a view to having the reports published on Monday?
The PRIME MINISTER: I think I have explained the matter fully. As it stands, it is outside my power to do anything more. I can only suggest that in the interval between now and when the Labour party are able to put down the Scottish Vote for discussion, the hon. Member should consult with his friends across the Gangway.
Mr. TINKER: Reverting to the Trade Unions Bill, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of us have sat since Monday on these benches and have not had a chance of joining in this discussion, which is most important to us all? We do not trouble the House very much, but on this occasion I think we

1773
ought to have full opportunity, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to grant us another day.
The PRIME MINISTER: In years past I have done the same thing. I have risen 20 times in one afternoon and never been called—it is a thing which happens to most of us—and, if I might say so, I think the less time we consume in debating these matters now, the more time there will be for hon. Members later.
Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that, notwithstanding the three days that have been
devoted to the Bill already, we are still waiting for a full explanation of the Bill from the Government Benches?
Mr. THURTLE: May we take it, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, that he has no intention on the Committee stage of applying the Closure in any ruthless fashion?
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 289; Noes, 126.

Division No. 105.]

AYES.

[3.47 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Gower, Sir Robert

Albery, Irving James

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

Chapman, Sir S.

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

Allen, Lieut.-Col Sir William James

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Grotrian, H. Brent

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Clayton, G. C.

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Apsley, Lord

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hammersley, S. S.

Astor, Viscountess

Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

Hanbury, C.

Atholl, Duchess of

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Harland, A.

A. Balniel, Lord

Cooper, A. Duff

Harrison, G. J. C.

Barclay, Harvey, C. M.

Cope, Major William

Hartington, Marquess of

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Couper, J. B.

Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Haslam, Henry C.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Hawke, John Anthony

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Bennett, A. J.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxfd, Henley)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Berry, Sir George

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Bethel, A.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

Betterton Henry B.

Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil)

Hills, Major John Waller

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hilton, Cecil

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Blundell, F. N.

Dawson, Sir Philip

Holt, Captain H. P.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Dean, Arthur Wellesley

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Drew. C.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

Duckworth, John

Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universitites)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Eden, Captain Anthony

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Braithwaite, Major A. N.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

Brass, Captain W.

Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Briant, Frank

Ellis, R. G.

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

England, Colonel A.

Hume, Sir G. H.

Briggs, J. Harold

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Hurd, Percy A.

Briscoe, Richard George

Erskine, James Malcolm Montelth

Hurst, Gerald B.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Jacob, A. E.

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Falls, Sir Charles F.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Jephcott, A. R.

Buchan, John

Fenby, T. D.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Buckingham, Sir H.

Fermoy, Lord

Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Finburgh, S.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Bullock, Captain M.

Ford, Sir P. J.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Burman, J. B.

Forestler-Walker, Sir L.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Lamb, J. O.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Fraser, Captain Ian

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R

Campbell, E. T.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Carver, Major W. H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Ganzoni, Sir John

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)

Gates, Percy

Loder, J. de V.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Looker, Herbert William

Lougher, Lewis

Power, Sir John Cecil

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Preston, William

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen south)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

Price, Major C. W. M.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Radford, E. A.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Lumley, L. R

Ralne, W

Tinne, J. A.

Lynn, Sir Robert J.

Ramsden, E.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Remnant, Sir James

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Rentoul, G. S.

Waddington, R.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Rice, Sir Frederick

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Macquisten, F. A.

Ropner, Major L.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Watts, Dr. T.

Malone, Major P. B.

Salmon, Major I.

Wells, S. R.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Margesson, Captain D.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple.

Meller, R. J.

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Wiggins, William Martin

Meyer, Sir Frank

Savery, S. S.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw.

Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Skelton, A. N.

Wolmer, Viscount

Murchison, Sir Kenneth

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Womersley. W. J.

Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Nelson, Sir Frank

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E)

Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Nuttall, Ellis

Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

Wragg, Herbert

Oakley, T.

Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.

Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

Penny, Frederick George

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Styles, Captain H. Walter

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Tasker, R. Inigo.

Colonel Gibbs.

Phillpson, Mabel

Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

Purcell, A. A.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hardle, George D.

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Ammon, Charles George

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Riley, Ben

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hayes, John Henry

Ritson, J.

Baker, Walter

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Robinson. W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Barnes, A.

Hirst, G. H.

Rose, Frank H.

Barr, J.

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Saklatvala, Shapurji

Batey, Joseph

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Sexton, James

Bondfield, Margaret

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Broad, F. A.

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bromley, J.

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Smillie, Robert

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Buchanan, G.

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Kennedy, T.

Snell, Harry

Cape, Thomas

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Clowes, S.

Kirkwood, D.

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Cluse, W. S.

Lansbury, George

Stamford, T. W.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Lawrence, Susan

Stephen, Campbell

Compton, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Connolly, M.

Lee, F.

Sullivan, J.

Cove, W. G.

Lindley, F. W.

Sutton, J. E.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lowth, T.

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Dalton, Hugh

Lunn, William

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Platstow)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Mackinder, W.

Thurtle, Ernest

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

MacLaren, Andrew

Tinker, John Joseph

Duncan, C.

MacNeill-Weir, L.

Townend, A. E.

Dunnico, H.

March, S.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Maxton, James

Viant, S. P.

Gillett, George M.

Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

Wallhead, Richard C.

Gosling, Harry

Montague, Frederick

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Morris, R. H.

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Greenall, T.

Murnin, H.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Palln, John Henry

Wellock, Wilfred

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Paling, W.

Welsh, J. C.

Groves, T.

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

Westwood, J.

Grundy, T. W.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Potts, John S.

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

1776

1777

Williams, Dr. J. H.(Llanelly)

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Williams T. (York, Don Valley)

Windsor, Walter

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.

Wilson, C. H.(Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Wright W.

Whiteley.

POLICE (APPEALS) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in, the Standing (Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 129.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Indian Affairs,—That they have appointed a Committee, consisting of eleven Lords, to join with a Committee of the Commons as a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs, and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP D).
Mr. MACPHERSONreported from the Committee on Group D of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the Clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSONreported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B: Colonel Applin, Brigadier-General Charteris, and Commander Cochrane; and had appointed in substitution: Sir Henry Cautley, Lord Erskine, and Captain Hacking.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP E).
  Sir ARTHUR SHIRLEY BENNreported from the Committee on Group E of Private Bills: That, for the convenience
  1778
  of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  GRIMSBY CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  TRADE DISPUTES AND TRADE UNIONS BILL.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [2nd May] "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  Which Amendment was: To leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day six months."—[Mr. Clynes.]
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  4.0 p.m.
  Mr. TOWNEND: I do not propose to detain the House more than a very few minutes. When the Debate was adjourned last evening I was endeavouring to reply to the taunt from hon. Members opposite that no helpful criticism of this Bill had been forthcoming from these benches, a taunt, I regret to note, with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) allied himself. I would point out that certain difficulties stand in the way of helpful criticism of this Measure coming from these benches. The Attorney-General, when introducing the Measure, indicated that there were certain ambiguities in it, but, unfortunately, sat down without having explained the Bill. Yesterday we had a long statement from the Prime Minister, in which, despite all his words, he hardly made reference to the Bill at all. A third spokesman from the Government Bench, the Secretary of State for War, was equally unhelpful. Therefore, we have been left all along, and are left even on this fourth day of the Debate, to our own devices to ascertain what is to be understood by the various Clauses of the Bill, knowing full well that the ultimate interpretation of it will be in the hands of bodies outside this House who, we have already been informed, are not altogether favourably disposed to either the trade union or the Labour movement. We are informed that Clause 1 is put in to prevent a general strike, although mention of a general
  1784
  strike is not to be found in the Clause. We have also been informed by right hon. and learned Gentlemen in all parts of the House that this Clause not only prevents a general strike, and not only prevents a sympathetic strike, but that within it is to be discovered ways and means even of preventing an industrial dispute, confined to one particular trade. The Attorney-General, although repeatedly asked, has not been able to define the line of demarkation as between trade and trade. I would like to ask him, for instance, where the railway industry begins and where the transport industry ends, and whether the latter includes the former. I would also like to ask what is meant by the coercion of the Government. Would it not be pertinent to suggest that no Government worth its salt would be coerced under any circumstances, and ought not to require a Bill to bolster up its weak and vacillating policy? If the Government require a Bill to do this, then, I suggest, the best way to meet the position is for them to resign and make way for a Government that will be prepared to resist any form of coercion. Again, will the Attorney-General tell us what is meant by the community, and, more important still, what he means when he refers to a substantial portion of the community? As I have said, there are many difficulties, and we are still waiting for answers to the questions which have been submitted.
  Clause 2 is one which sets a premium upon treachery. A man who pledges himself to abide by and loyally to respond to the rules and regulations of a trade union, rules and regulations that have been passed and confirmed by the Registrar-General, is encouraged under this Clause to break his bond beneath the pledge and under the protection of a Government Measure, and, if he is called to account according to the rules and regulations of that trade union, then, under Clause 2, the whole of the funds of that organisation are placed at the disposal of the before-mentioned bench of magistrates to give him compensation according to terms that they alone can determine. In addition, Clause 2 introduces a new principle. It makes innocent citizens of 12 months ago hard criminals to-day by reason of the fact that it is retrospective in its action.

  1785
  Clause 3 is embodied in the Bill to prevent intimidation. The Attorney-General gave a definition of what he meant by intimidation. It was about as accurate as the definition given by the Secretary of State for India in a speech that he made in Manchester a few days ago, when he described peaceful persuasion as
  "a band of men with bricks in their hands waiting upon the home of a comrade for the purpose of imparting information."
  If the definition thus given were correct, then every Member on these benches would be behind a Clause such as this. But the Clause contains something else. We are informed that intimidation means causing in the mind reasonable apprehension of injury, which further is construed in the Bill as reasonable apprehension of ridicule or contempt. Thus, it is quite possible under this Clause that a picket, without even speaking to, without even looking at, without even making a gesture towards a non-striker, may, because he happens to meet that, non-striker, find himself accused of holding that man up to ridicule and contempt. Under this Clause, that non-striker can lead that picket into the dock, where, although he may never have dreamed of that non-striker in any shape or form, he will become liable to a fine of £20 or three months' imprisonment. Yet we are asked for helpful criticism of Clauses like that.
  Clause 5 transforms the whole of the Civil Service into a huge slave plantation and throws us back to the days of Uncle Tom's Cabin. It places every civil servant in an inferior position to his friends and neighbours who are engaged in other industries. It denies to him the free exercise either of his political or trade union aspirations, and, in addition, it attempts to make the whole of that most intelligent section of the community neither more nor less than regimented robots. The Clause also informs him that every member of the Civil Service—and the Front Bench will certainly appreciate this—must respond with military precision to the instructions of his Departmental Chief, knowing full well that, if he does not, he renders himself liable to dismissal. Yet we are asked to submit helpful criticism. I would like to ask the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who
  1786
  suggested helpful criticism from these benches, what his attitude would be if confronted by a holus bolus Bill of Tariff Reform from the Government. Would he endeavour to amend or improve it? He would bring the whole of his forensic ability into the lists for the purpose, not of improving, but of rejecting and killing the Bill.
  We are asked by hon. Members opposite to test the very rope with which it is proposed to hang us. It is suggested that we test the degree of virulence of the poison that is going to lay us low. We are asked to test the edge of the blade with which we are going to be beheaded. What a request! It only shows the kind of mentality that is responsible for the Bill which we are now discussing. I want to assure the Government that, so far as these benches are concerned, we are convinced that this is a mischievous, a bad, and a vicious Bill. It was conceived in hatred and envy, and it reeks with malice and un-charitableness; and I want to assure the Government, on behalf of every one on these benches, that we shall not only fight every word and line in this House, but that we shall carry our fight outside with uncompromising hostility right to the bitter end, an end which no man in this House can foresee.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: A Measure of the provocative character of this Bill naturally generates feeling and disposes one to strong language. Mr. Balfour, when defending the hooligan conduct of the Tory party, during the Debates on the Home Rule Bill, said that there was a limit to human endurance. I quite agree with what you, Sir, have said more than once from the Chair during these Debates, that the ordinary Rules and procedure of the House of Commons afford ample opportunity for the full expression of opinion upon matters on which there may be grave differences. I am one by nature indisposed to provocative language and to strong invective, and I have a natural tolerance for political opponents, but even I, I am afraid, will have to exercise considerable restraint in dealing with the Bill which is now under discussion. I want, however, as calmly and as dispassionately as I possibly can, to try to examine one or two of the contentions which have been put forward by the Government to

  1787
  justify the introduction of this Measure. I confess that I have not been in the least impressed by the profound legal arguments which we have had in the course of these Debates. At this stage, at any rate, it is not so much a matter for lawyers as for the exercise of ordinary common-sense.
  The Attorney-General, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, showed either that he did not understand the provisions of his own Bill or that the Bill had been deliberately drafted full of ambiguities, so that the Magistrates and the Courts might place their own interpretation upon it, dictated by their own prejudices. Perhaps the most remarkable speech that has been delivered during this Debate was that contributed yesterday by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). It was a most entertaining exhibition of tight-rope walking, an art in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is a past master. There is no Member of the House, I am quite sure, who knew at the conclusion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech how he was going to vote. I suppose that he intended his speech to be a general support of the Measure, and he said he hoped to amend it. He has a greater responsibility for this Bill than any other Member of the House. I suppose that his speech, if intended to convey any conclusion at ate, was intended as a general support of the Measure. But, Mr. Speaker, there has been no speech delivered in this Debate which was such a condemnation of the grounds upon which the Government have justified the introduction of this Bill as the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley. What did he say? He said the Bill was merely declaratory. He told us a year ago that a general strike was illegal under the existing law, and he told us yesterday that that provision of the Bill dealing with intimidation merely declares, perhaps with a very slight variation, the state of the existing law.
  If it be the fact that the so-called general strike is and that the law of intimidation is practically what it will be when this Bill becomes law, what in the name of common sense is the use of arousing all this bitterness and throwing the country into a cauldron of boiling
  1788
  political controversy merely to declare what is already the state of the law. "But," says the right hon. Gentleman, "the general strike is illegal under the existing law. The law of intimidation is what it will be when this Bill becomes law; the people want to know; they need to be informed what the law is in regard to a general strike and intimidation." Why, did not the right hon. Gentleman himself inform the country a year ago that a general strike was illegal? Have not his speeches been reprinted and circulated by thousands? Did not the Attorney-General tell us two days ago that 12 months ago a judge of the High Court declared that a general strike was illegal? What more then do we want to inform the people as to the illegality of the so-called general strike and intimidation under the existing law.
  That is what the right hon. Gentleman broadly declares the law to be, but his most severe condemnation was reserved not for the ambiguities of this Bill, but for certain declarations which have been made by the Labour party. He announced that we on this side opposed this Bill before it had been introduced into the House of Commons. Of course we did because we knew what the Bill would be. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] That only shows that hon. Members opposite are quite clearly not such diligent students of their own leaders' speeches as the Members of the Labour party. May I point out that the provisions which have actually been embodied in this Bill were announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a speech in Manchester before we made the statement that the Labour party were going to oppose this Measure. There has not been the slightest deviation in the out line of this slightest as compared with that which was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. "But," says the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley "we have announced that we shall oppose it and that we shall repeal the Measure if we get an opportunity to do so."
  The right hon. Gentleman tried to justify his criticism of that declaration by one of the grossest pieces of misrepresentation I have ever heard in this House. Now I know the right hon. Gentleman's electioneering methods. His constituency borders on my own. The right hon. Gentleman

  1789
  the Member for Preston (Mr. Shaw) who spoke yesterday stated that misrepresentation is the stock-in-trade of the party opposite; but they will have a little to learn on the day when the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley follows those who have gone before him to the other side of the House, for he will be able to show them things in electioneering that they have never seen or contemplated. Let me justify the statement I made just now with regard to the gross misrepresentation made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman in reference to our declaration that we should repeal this Bill if it became an Act. He said: "The Labour party will go before the country and say We propose legislation which makes intimidation legal and legislation which will make it lawful to substitute the will of an outside body for the will of Parliament.'"
  Sir JOHN SIMON: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to explain? He has no doubt unwittingly failed to reproduce either the exact words I used or the obvious sense in which I used them. I did not accuse the right hon. Gentleman of misrepresentation, but it really was quite obvious to the House that what I was saying was that I thought it a very rash thing to declare in advance that whatever form this Bill takes, it is going to be repealed line by line. I simply did not believe that anyone would propose to repeal the declaration that intimidation is illegal. What I said was that:
  "I do not envy the lot of any candidate or any party that really intends to advance those views."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th May, 1927; col. 1649, Vol. 205.]
  No one understood me to suggest that that was the view of the Labour party. I am within the recollection of the House—
  Mr. J. JONES: That is not a point of Order at all, Mr. Speaker.
  Sir J. SIMON: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman's speech, but as a matter of fact I was careful to say that one of the striking things in the course of the affair of 12 months ago was the constant way in which the trade union leaders had discouraged any form of intimidation.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: That is another illustration of the right hon. Gentleman's facility for mere quibbling. But he was very careful not to overquote. The right hon. Gentleman assumed that the Labour party would go to the country at the next election with that declaration, and he said that he did not envy their position. He stated that we were going to the country to say that although this Bill which is now before the House justifies the claims which are made for it as to its objects we propose legislation to the effect that intimidation is lawful. That is what the right hon. Gentleman said, imagining himself in the position of a Labour candidate at the next election. He went on to say:
  "Or that a general strike, in a case where it is avowedly and admittedly aimed at the compulsion of the Government, or at substituting the will of an outside body for that of Parliament, is to be declared lawful."
  Sir J. SIMON: You have not read the sentence.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I have read every word of the sentence with the exception—[Interruption]. The sentence began:
  "Although this Bill is now in a form which justifies the claims made for it as to its objects, we propose legislation to the effect that intimidation is lawful."
  Then one of my hon. Friends said:
  "Is it lawful now? You gave us the law on the general strike."
  And the right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "If the hon. Gentleman will be patient with me, he will find out."
  Then he went on as I read just now:
  "Or that a general strike, in a case where it is avowedly and admittedly aimed at compulsion of the Government, or at substituting the will of an outside body for that of Parliament, is to be declared lawful."
  And he continued:
  "I do not envy the lot of any candidate or any party that really intends to advance those views.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th May 1927; cols. 1648–9, Vol. 205.]
  The right hon. Gentleman put these words into the mouth of the Labour party at the next election:
  "We propose to make intimidation legal; we propose to legalise the supersession of the Government by an outside body."
  When did the Labour party propose that? When have we proposed to make intimidation legal?
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: Your master, Mr. Cook, said so.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: When have the Labour party said that they would propose legislation to make it legal for outside bodies to supersede Parliament? We have never said that
  Sir J. SIMON Sir J. SIMON rose—
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I gave the right hon. Gentleman five minutes [Interruption.]
  Sir J. SIMON: I really am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. The point is a very simple one to all who are willing to listen to it. The point is this, that, whatever may be said against the expediency of passing declaratory Clauses, when they are passed it is really quite impracticable for anybody to be proposing to repeal them. I have never for a moment supposed that the Labour party would seek to legislate that intimidation was legal. [Interruption.] Nobody who really listened with care to my speech, or read it fairly, could possibly think so.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I always welcome the right hon. Gentleman's interruptions, for, every time he rises, he succeeds only in making his position worse. The only thing that his latest interruption can possibly mean is that he now sees what a foolish thing he said yesterday in expressing what, no doubt, was at the moment his real feeling and intention It may be that for the moment the right hon. Gentleman forgot that he was addressing the House of Commons, and thought he was delivering one of his familiar speeches in the Spen Valley Division. We have declared that when we become a Government we shall repeal this Act. Suppose we do. Will the repeal of this Act make intimidation legal? [An HON. MEMBER: "Inferentially"!] I do not recognise the hon. Member who gives us that very intelligent interruption, but it is quite evident that he has not followed even the speeches of his own leader, because the point of the Attorney-General the other day was the same as the point made yesterday by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley, that this Bill was mainly declaratory in its purpose, that it did not materially alter the existing law. Suppose we do repeal this Bill; what is the position? [Interruption.]
  1792
  The position is that all existing trade union law is still the law of this country. If it be good law to-day that a general strike is illegal, a general strike will be illegal when we have repealed this Act. If intimidation be illegal, then intimidation will be illegal when we have repealed this Act.
  Let me get back, after having dealt with the right hon. Gentleman to the points I was discussing. First of all, is this Bill necessary? With that I have in large measure already dealt. Secondly, will it achieve the declared purpose of those who are promoting it? The Prime Minister told us yesterday, in the extremely useful contribution that he made, that the justification for it is to be found in the events of last year—to prevent a general strike. That was not what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) said the other night. He did not say that this Bill was to stop a general strike. It was to modify the privileges trade unions had enjoyed, and further to curb powers they have used. The purpose of the Bill is declared to be to prevent coercion of the Government or any substantial portion of the community; but we are told that the right to strike is not being interfered with. But even the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley is not quite confident, even looking at it from the purely legal point of view, whether the Bill as it stands would make a sympathetic strike illegal. Those who do not look at the Bill from a legal point of view, those who have some practical experience of strikes, have no doubt at all. What is, in essence, the purpose of a strike?
  An HON. MEMBER: To ruin the workers!
  Mr. SNOWDEN: The essential purpose of a strike is to coerce somebody. It can have no other object. It is a resort to force—the use of force to compel the concession of something. It may be used by the employers upon the workmen; it may be used by the workmen upon the employers; but it is always coercive. Then, again, just as the relations of capitalists and employers' federations are so intimate, so interlocked, to-day, so are the relations of the various trade unions, and it is an utter impossibility to confine a

  1793
  trade dispute to what is described in this Bill as within the trade or industry. It cannot be done. If the right is taken away from the trade unions to increase the pressure, to increase coercion by sympathetic strikes, then the strike weapon becomes absolutely useless. [Interruption.] Let us assume that another purpose of this Bill is to prevent coercion of the Government. Why, Sir, for what purpose do Governments exist? They exist only for the purpose of being coerced. The purpose of an Opposition is to coerce and harass the Government. Every organisation, every party, every interest, is constantly bringing pressure—coercion—upon the Government of the day to concede its demands; and the coercion is not confined to those outside the Government or outside the party of the Government. Nobody knows that better than the present Prime Minister. He confessed it yesterday. He admitted that he had been coerced into accepting a Bill with the whole of which he did not agree. [Interruption.] Surely, it is something new to make it a criminal offence to bring coercion to bear upon a Government in order to concede certain demands. I can imagine no more peaceful way of bringing coercion to bear upon anybody—upon any organised body or upon the Government—than by men simply stopping away from work and remaining peacefully at home.
  As to the so-called general strike, my views are fairly well known. It is 20 years since I dealt with this question in a book I wrote, and I have never altered my view. A general strike for industrial purposes is general nonsense. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] In its very nature it never can be effective. I can imagine only two circumstances in which a general strike might possibly succeed. One is where the Government is entering into a war and quite obviously against the overwhelming wishes of the country. Possibly there might be some justification for a stoppage of work to coerce a Government which, again quite obviously, was seeking to pass through Parliament, by the aid of a powerful majority, some Measure for which it bad no mandate, or which it was perfectly clear—I will put it in another way—if it was perfectly clear that the overwhelming majority of the country were opposed to that Measure. But why in these two circumstances might a general strike possibly be
  1794
  effective Exactly because it had the support of practically the whole country. I cannot possibly imagine that circumstances and conditions like these would ever be present in an industrial general strike.
  So much for that. Although a general strike, in my opinion, is always ineffective as an industrial weapon, yet it is not wrong. The argument against the general strike is net that it is wrong; the argument is in my opinion, that it is a foolish and an ineffective weapon to use. But—I hope hon. Members opposite will cheer this, too-the Attorney-General says that it is illegal at present. He is going to make it quite sure by this Bill. But does he think, and does the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley think, that if you put it into 50 Acts of Parliament and you get every Judge on the Bench to say that a general strike is illegal, that that is going to stop a general strike if the workers are determined to have it? Certainly not. It would not make the slightest difference. If they were determined to have it, they would have it, and all your pains and penalties would not have the slightest effect upon them.
  This is my main argument in exposing the folly of the proposal that the Government are now making. Suppose that there is an illegal general strike. What are the Government going to do? Under this Bill every man who takes part in a so-called general strike can be sent to prison for three months. He certainly will not pay the fine. Well now, suppose that 5,000,000 men stop work. How are you going to deal with them? Are you going to bring those 5,000,000 men before the Courts? [HON. MEMBERS: "The leaders."] An hon Member opposite has suddenly illuminated this difficulty. You take the leaders first. This Bill says nothing about taking the leaders first. Every man who takes part in such an illegal strike must be tried either by summary proceedings or by indictment in another Court. Are you going to discriminate? Are you going to take a few leaders and others, and think that by sending them to prison for three months von are going to intimidate the rest to go back to work? You have 5,000,000 men to deal with and you are going to send them all to prison for three months. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Where are you going to confine them, and what is

  1795
  going to become of the trade and industry of the country during the three months that the 5,000,000 men are in prison? Therefore, this is not a Bill to stop a general strike; it is a Bill to prolong a general strike if a strike takes place.
  The right hon. Member for Spen Valley did find one fault with the Bill: it did not include employers of labour. The learned Attorney-General told us why—because to do so would be useless and inept. I entirely agree. It is about the only thing in his speech with which I did agree. Of course it would be useless. You may put words into an Act of Parliament which appear to apply equally to workmen and employers, but no words in an Act of Parliament can ever place workmen and employers on the same footing. The employers have at their disposal a thousand means of coercion which no Act of Parliament can ever touch. Talk about coercion and intimidation of trade unions! Why, they do not know the first letter of the alphabet of intimidation and coercion, compared with the employers. The right hon. Member for Spen Valley probably knows something; he may have come across it in his legal work in dealing with the rules of employers' federations and trade associations. Coercion and intimidation Why, under some of these rules an employer of labour is ruined if he dares to sell his goods at prices other than those which have been fixed. His supplies are stopped. The effect is not only to ruin the employer himself, but to throw his workpeople too out of occupation.
  Will hon. Members, those with gal minds, kindly answer this question? What is the difference between an employer or a body of employers agreeing to close down their works or to go on short time, and a body of workmen agreeing to stop away from work or to go on half-time? In the case of workmen it is a strike. They would be under pains and penalties when this Bill becomes law. The employers can close down their works and they need give no reason whatever for so doing. They will always find a thousand excuses or reasons other than the real one. The employers can dismiss men and they need give no reason. They can intimidate them, as they do. We were told by the Prime Minister yesterday that his justification
  1796
  and mandate for the Bill was the event of last year, the mining dispute. The industrial history of this country has never furnished a more glaring instance of an organised attempt to coerce the Government than was provided by the action of the Mining Association. In all the protracted negotiations that took place the mineowners were constantly—and indeed using no other weapon—using the force of coercion upon the Government. What did the Chancellor of the Exchequer say in regard to his negotiations with the Mining Association? They coerced the right hon. Gentleman and the Government into conceding legislation for an eight-hours day.
  5.0 p.m.
  When the learned Attorney-General has an opportunity of replying, I would like to put a question to him. May I ask him, would a strike for a reduction of the hours of labour be a legal or an illegal strike under this Bill? How can the miners get a reduction of their hours of work except through Government legislation Government by law have fixed the hours of labour. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!" and "Yes!"] I concede this—it does not in the least lessen the force of my argument—that one way in which the miners can get a reduction their hours of labour is by some voluntary arrangement. [Interruption.] A voluntary arrangement is always open to them. That is altogether apart from a strike, but the Act and this is the point—which gives the mineowners the power to enforce an eight-hours day is an Act passed by the Government, and, therefore, it can only be repealed by bringing pressure on the Government to repeal it.
  With regard to intimidation, the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley has said that it is already dealt with by the law of the land, but strikers ought to know what the law is. According to the Attorney-General, there were 7,000 of them last year who got to know in the Courts what, in the opinion of the magistrates, at any rate, was the law of England. It is a slander on trade unionism and trade union leaders to insinuate that they are in favour of intimidation and violence.
  Sir J. SIMON: I never said that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, you did!"]
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I am not replying to the right hon. and learned Gentleman; I am making a general statement. I say it is a slander. The right hon. and learned Gentleman may have been justified in thinking I was making a personal accusation, but he is so attractive, I could not keep my eyes off him. Imaginary cases have been quoted in the course of our Debate. May I give one more? This Bill introduces a new offence-the apprehension of being held up to ridicule. If it is to be made an offence even to hold up a person to ridicule, then the whole spice and enjoyment of life have been taken away. I do not think I am grotesque in the instance I am going to give. A number of men on strike are in a public house. A blackleg comes in. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is a blackleg?"] Without saying a word, they rise and walk out. They have undoubtedly held that man up to ridicule; they have given what will be quite satisfactory evidence to the magistrates of causing fear of ridicule. That is what this Bill is going to do. There is nothing that you can do by an Act of Parliament to prevent men from showing, either in their faces or sometimes by their words, their contempt for men of whose conduct they disapprove. I wonder if I have time to tell—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"]—a little story which comes to my mind bearing upon this. When I was very young and employed in the Revenue Office, I was asked one day to write out a form of application for a clergyman. The chief clerk came to me and said, "He wants you to put D.D. after his name." I did so. He came back and said, "He is going to report you." I said, "What for?" "For insulting him." "Why," I said, "I never said a word." "No," he said, "but you looked it." Under this Bill I should not be permitted the luxury of "looking it." And there is going to be placed on the magistrates the duty of interpreting what a man's looks mean. Nothing more ridiculous has ever been proposed in Parliament.
  Coming to the political levy, I can speak as an outsider. I have fought nine Parliamentary elections. I have never had trade union financial support; and this fact is not generally known, that three-quarters of the Labour candidates have no trade union financial support. Their expenses are raised wholly by the
  1798
  voluntary contributions of comparatively poor people. The Prime Minister told us yesterday that the justification of this Bill was the events of last year. What, in the name of common sense, have the events of last year to do with the political levy? When the Prime Minister was speaking yesterday, he was pressed by an hon. Friend of mine to answer that question. He made no attempt to do so. He said in that memorable speech of his—it will be remembered, because it is the only memorable speech which the Prime Minister has ever made—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame," and Interruption.] He said:
  "We find ourselves, after these two years in power, in possession of perhaps the greatest majority our party has ever had, and with the general assent of the country."
  He went on to say:
  "Now, how did we get there?"
  Heaven only knows I But he said:
  "How did we get there? It was not by promising to bring in this Bill."—[OFFIOIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1915; col. 840, Vol. 1.81.]
  That is, the Political Levy Bill. How then does he justify the introduction of a political levy Clause into this Bill? And, mark you, it is quite clear that when the King's Speech was drafted, the Government had no intention of dealing with the political levy. It is quite clear that the passage in the King's Speech has reference to industrial disputes only. It says:
  "Recent events have made evident the importance of defining and amending the law with reference to industrial disputes. Proposals for this purpose will be laid before you."
  Not a word about the political levy in that. The right hon. Member for Hill head (Sir R. Horne) said—I am not using his exact words, but he will not deny that I am giving a correct interpretation—that the purpose and object of the political levy was that a majority could tell a man how to vote. The trade unions have never made any such claim.
  Sir ROBERT HORNE: I greatly regret having to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he is—I am perfectly certain, unconsciously—entirely misrepresenting what I did say. I took up what was said by the right hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson), that when the political levy was first considered by the

  1799
  House, the claim of the Labour party was, that once a ballot had taken place and a majority had decided in favour of it, every man should be compelled to pay. I asked whether that was still the attitude of the Labour party, and I was greeted with cries of "No," and I went on to deal with the present Bill.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I think, if the right hon. Gentleman refers to the report of his speech, he will find that he said the claim we made was that the majority should dictate to a man how he should vote. I was in Parliament when this matter was discussed, and it is quite true that the position the Labour party and the trade unions took up was that the political levy should be compulsory. I am quite prepared to defend that, because a good part of the activities of trade unions must be concerned with political work, because conditions are so largely governed and regulated and controlled to-day by legislation, and therefore if through the efforts of a trade union certain concessions are won—a reduction in the hours of labour, improved factory inspection, a score of things that one might mention—if these benefits are won by trade union activities, every member of a trade union who enjoys these advantages ought in justice to make his contribution. That, roughly, was our case for the compulsory political levy, provided it had been agreed upon by a majority. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley was in the House when the Political Levy Bill was passed. Indeed, I believe he was the Solicitor-General at the time. He supported it. I remember he made some admirable speeches in defence of it.
  Sir J. SIMON: I do not think I ever spoke in the House about it.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I remember as though it were yesterday the right hon. Gentleman speaking from the second bench there, either upon the Trades Disputes Bill or upon the Political Levy Bill. I remember with what enthusiasm his speech was received by the small group of Labour Members then in the House. We little dreamt in those days that some of us would live to hear the right hon. Gentleman as loudly cheered by the Tory party in the House in supporting its repeal.
  1800
  The purpose of the Bill, according to the Government, is to prevent another general strike. I can imagine nothing better calculated to provoke one. The Bill has been introduced to foment class strife, and to arouse the defiance of the unions. The Prime Minister spoke yesterday about the supremacy of the minority movement in some of the trade unions. This Bill is the greatest godsend to the minority movement and to Communists alike. There is only one way of escaping from strikes. My hon. Friends behind me know that I have never been an advocate of strikes. In all my public life, I have advocated the setting up of machinery by which industrial differences might be settled without the dislocation of industry. That is my position to-day and that is why I deplore this Bill. Its introduction has made the position of men like myself extremely difficult, if not impossible.
  How can we go on the platform now and appeal to our friends for a better spirit? They have the reply in this Bill. There is only one way, I say, of preventing a general strike or any other strike, and that is the setting up of machinery by which industrial disputes can be settled by reason and not by force, and I would to God that this Government instead of throwing this apple of discord into the industrial arena had asked Parliament to concentrate its attention upon trying to promote such legislation. Heaven knows we need it at the present time after five or six years of unprecedented trade depression. Is this going to help trade recovery? It is going to make it impossible. I will not trouble the House by reading—probably they know it—the expression of opinion from the. National Alliance of Employers and Workmen, the chairman of which is a former Conservative Member of this House. They have written to the Prime Minister deploring the introduction of this Bill and passed a resolution declaring what I attempted to say just now about the disastrous consequences of this action of the Government upon the future of industry. I know it is no use to appeal to the Government. The Bill will go through. It will become an Act of Parliament, but it will cost the country far more than a general strike. Coercion is responsible for this Bill. We are not the only party with an extreme minority. Every party has them, and

  1801
  no one knows that better than the Prime Minister. The minority movement has triumphed in some of the trade unions, he says. The reason why we have this Measure is that the diehard section of his own party have forced it upon him.
  Sir ROBERT SANDERS: I do not wish to take part in the controversy between the two eminent Yorkshire representatives to which we have just listened. But I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we on this side of the House were surprised at his statement that the fact that a general strike was made illegal by Statute would make no difference whatever. The part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech that I particularly wish to allude to was the statement which has been made several times in the course of the Debate that the Government in bringing in this Bill was giving in to some mysterious form of coercion or intimidation. That is absolutely untrue. It is an undoubted fact that on this matter the Government have for a good many years been subjected to a considerable course of peaceful persuasion. There is no mystery about it. Resolutions on this subject have been passed by every Conservative association in the country. It is not of recent origin. It has been going on ever since the War. I have inside knowledge. One Conservative association after another has put this question almost in the forefront. When we had last year a meeting of the Conservative National Conference at Scarborough more attention was devoted to this subject than to any other, and there was greater unanimity and enthusiasm than I have ever seen at a Conservative conference, and it has been my fortune to attend a great many. The feeling was so strong that people with very considerable positions in the party who ventured to cast a little doubt on the resolutions that were put forward had a very bad hearing. This did not come from the employers. If ever there was a movement in the party that came from below this was one. Throughout its history, and I have known some of the history of it in the party, it has been a movement which has been promoted and pressed forward by representatives of the working class. Time after time resolutions have come in on the subject. The Conservative working men in the country are a very large body
  1802
  or we should not be in the position we are. The two particular matters on which they laid stress are what is known as peaceful picketing and the political levy. In both those cases they complained that minorities are bullied. We have been asked to give evidence on this subject of the political levy. The amount of evidence that has been sent in to us is very considerable indeed. Case after case has been sent in to say that men subscribe to this political levy because they are afraid to refrain from doing so and to make an application to be exempt. We have been asked to state the names. Of course, we cannot state the names, because the very reason these people are complaining is that they are afraid of the bullying to which they would be subjected if they divulged their names. And this is not only the experience of the Conservative party. The same thing has happened on the Liberal side. I am informed that the National League of Liberal Trade Unionists—I quote from the "Manchester Guardian" of last November—issued a manifesto in which they said:
  "It is unfortunately true that in some districts those who refuse to support the Labour party are subjected to forms of intimidation as had as our Liberal forefathers suffered at the hands of dominating Toryism in rural areas, but this tyranny will weaken and become powerless as soon as there is resolute and concerted action. Membership of the League is the way to secure this."
  We may not agree as to the remedy, but at all events both the Conservative party and Liberal party, according to that evidence, agree as to the disease. The argument has been put forward—I must say I have been rather surprised at the force with which it has been put forward, because I have always hitherto imagined that the case of the Labour party on this subject was that there is really no grievance at all—that everyone who wanted to be exempt from the political levy could be so. exempt. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is true to-day!"] That is true, but who has got the courage? We have a great deal of evidence that there are a great many people who funk making the application. I have just shown that the Liberal party have the same evidence. The case that has been put forward on the other side, in the course of these Debates, is not so much

  1803
  that anyone who wants can get off paying, but that a member of a trades union ought to contribute to this fund and that it is quite right that he should have to do so.
  Mr. OLIVER: Do you believe in majority rule?
  Sir R. SANDERS: As the lion. Member opposite has just expressed it, that is majority rule. As was stated in this House a good many years ago, minorities must suffer, but I must say that that is a doctrine to which I have never subscribed. At all events, if the minority has to suffer, you cannot expect the minority to like it. It is a fact that in a great many cases where they have passed the political levy resolution there is a very considerable Conservative minority, and these Conservatives feel that they are being bullied. They feel that they do not get fair play, and they are coming to the Government which they have done a great deal to return to power, and they are asking them to come to their assistance in this matter. Hon. Members opposite think that by means of the outcry against this Bill they are going to make a great political score in the country. Well, the reports that I have heard tend to show exactly the opposite. In one part of the country after another I have heard that this Bill is being received with enthusiasm. Reference has been made to the fact that leaders of the Labour party have stated that when they go to the country they will make a leading plank in their platform of their desire to repeal this Bill. I can only say that I hope they will, because, if they go to the country on that cry, I believe the Conservative party will come back to power with an even bigger majority than it has at the present time.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We have had a great deal of illumination cast by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wells (Sir Robert Sanders) upon the way in which Governments are coerced. He has given us an account of the various resolutions which have been engineered by the Conservative party since the War in order to intimidate the various Governments to carry a Bill such as this. I am not sure that that does not come within the provisions of Clause 1. It involves a threat to withhold work from
  1804
  the Conservative party unless they did something which, as a Government, they were not at that moment prepared to do. I mean to approach this Bill from a different angle from the one which my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) approached it, in one of the most powerful Parliamentary performances it has ever been my pleasure to listen to in this House.
  I do not propose to discuss the details of the Bill. I mean to challenge the wisdom of introducing a Bill of this kind at all at this moment, and I mean to give the reasons for that view. I agree with Lord Grey that the merits of the Bill are of minor importance. It is not often that Lord Grey gives me an opportunity of agreeing with him, and, when he does, I seize it with alacrity, and this is one of the matters upon which I am in entire agreement with him. It is not merely a question of the details of the Bill, but it is a question of the desirability and the wisdom of introducing a challenging, provocative Measure of this kind at a time when it is so essential that there should be the best relations between capital and labour with a view to our recovering our lost trade. I have no doubt at all that trade union law needs amendment and needs clarification. If it did not, it would be the only law in this country that did not need amendment and clarification. When you have the most ingenious profession in the world engaged every day in trying to alter signposts and turn them in the direction in which they wish to go for the time being, no wonder there is a good deal of obscurity. My complaint about this Bill is that it does not clarify; it muddles old obscurities and creates new ones.
  If ingenuity had been employed in making an Act of Parliament obscure it could not have been done with greater cleverness than it has been done in this particular Bill. Great lawyers who are in favour of the principle of the Bill are not in the least pleased with the Measure itself. That is the real meaning of Lord Wrenbury's letter in the "Times." He suggested to the Government that you should lay down, first of all, Parliamentary Resolutions, that upon that basis you should have a Commission and that then you should draft your Bill. There was an hon. Friend of mine, the hon. Member for Luton (Captain O'Connor), who made

  1805
  a very good speech last night from the other side. He is a very able lawyer, and he has come to the same conclusion that some of the most vital Clauses of the Bill are Clauses which do not clearly early out the intention the Government has in view. Now, it is very dangerous where the law has to be interpreted by magistrates. I do not wish to say anything about magistrates, but the vast majority of them are drawn from a different class from those n ho will appear before them under this Bill, and, although I have no doubt at all that they do their very best to avoid introducing any prejudice into their adjudications, there is an unconscious class prejudice which does creep in. I know that from such experiences as I have had as a lawyer in cases of that kind. Therefore, when you have an Act of Parliament which deals with the law in reference to something in which a certain class is specially involved—a law which is interpreted very largely by employers of labour, because the vast majority of them are employers of labour—it is of vital importance that there should be no doubt at all with regard to the meaning of that Act of Parliament. The Attorney-General, in his speech, said something which I certainly was not clear upon from reading the Bill, and I have read it over and over again with such knowledge as I have. He said that strikes and sympathetic strikes were outside Clause 1, as I understand it.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg): I think the right hon. Gentleman has misquoted me. What I said was that this Bill did not stop the sympathetic strike unless the sympathetic strike was directed against the Government and not against employers.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is exactly where the obscurity comes in, and it is really very important to clear up this matter. Those are the words to which I wanted to call the attention of the Attorney-General, and the Solicitor-General especially, as, I understand, he is to reply. A strike, as long as it deals with a dispute inside a particular trade, is not proscribed by this Bill, but, if there be a strike, either sympathetic or otherwise, which is designed or calculated to coerce the Government or to intimidate any substantial portion of the community, that, under this Bill, is to be prohibited and subject to all the penalties which
  1806
  are included in the Bill. The Prime Minister said, and said quite truly, that strikes now were on a very much larger scale than they used to be. I am coming to that later on. As he put it very aptly, in the old days, they fought in battalions, then in divisions, and now they fight in great armies.
  That is so, but can you imagine a great strike like the miners' stoppage—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!" and "No!"] Well that was a stoppage. What is the use of quibbling about this? It was commenced by a notice given by the employers for a reduction in wages. It was not a strike for an increase in wages, and therefore I think it is right that you should use the appropriate term in reference to it, and it is not fair to protest against it. Take the late mining stoppage. I use the phrase which is perfectly legitimate. Here you have one of the most vital, basic industries in the country where you have a stoppage for seven months. Does anyone imagine that is not calculated to bring pressure upon the Government? Coercion means pressure with a view to inducing the Government to take certain action. Of course it would come well within those words. The magistrate might reasonably say "Here is an enormous stoppage which stops, not merely the business in an industry with a million of people engaged in it, but stops railways, stops the iron and steel trades, gradually closes down all the factories. That brings pressure upon the Government to intervene." If you use that phrase you will stop, not merely sympathetic strikes, but strikes themselves. Take the sympathetic strike. Take, if you like, the renewal of the old triple alliance between the transport workers—the railway workers, the dock workers, and the miners. Supposing a notice has been served by the employers on the miners that wages are to be further reduced, and the railway men and the dock labourers say: "We cannot stand this." They may do it out of sympathy or they may do it out of policy. They may say, as was said last year: "This is only the first; therefore we have to fight on this ground, because it is a general attempt to reduce Wages all round." Their motive will be purely an industrial one, first of all, out of sympathy with the miners, and, in the second place, because

  1807
  they have to fight their battle at some point and they take up the fight on this ground, which is the ground of wages. No one could say that that is not calculated to coerce the Government when they stop all these vital industries. Therefore, although the Attorney-General may give lip-service to the sympathetic strike, these words will make not only a sympathetic strike impossible but will make a strike in every vital industry come within the terms of the Bill.
  I want to point out the danger of the words which have been used here; but I will give another illustration before I come to my general case. Take Clause 4. The Attorney-General first says that this is equally applicable to employers' Associations. I should like to ask a question upon that of the Solicitor-General. Take, for instance, the Licensed Victuallers' Association or the Mining Association. Both of these associations have intervened in politics. Both have used their funds freely for fighting political battles. I should like to ask the Solicitor-General this: Does it mean that in future it will not be permissible for those who are in charge of these associations to use the general funds of those associations for political purposes, either to support candidates or to support parties or to circulate political literature, and that the only fund which can be used will be a special fund specially contributed to by individuals by means of forms signed by each of these individuals in the industry, indicating their desire to contribute, and that the money should be used for the support of a particular political party. Is that the case? If so, it is a new view of that particular Clause.
  I am not opposing this Bill on the ground merely of bad draftsmanship, or even on the ground that some of the Clauses are unfair and unjust. When I come to the particular Clauses I shall express my view of them in Committee I am opposing the Bill on the ground that at this stage, when we are struggling hard to recover our trade, when full recovery depends upon goodwill and cooperation between employers and workmen, when it is impossible to achieve recovery unless the workmen work wholeheartedly, it is exceedingly unwise to bring in a challenging, provocative Bill
  1808
  of this kind. The Prime Minister in his speech yesterday laid down, I can hardly call them four general principles; they were four rather general purposes and aims of this Bill. The first declared that there should be no general strike, the second that there should be no intimidation, the third that there should be no coercion to subscribe to any particular political party, and the fourth declares that party politics in the Civil Service are improper. I do not know anybody who challenges any of these propositions. But this Bill goes far beyond those four propositions.
  May I just say at this point that I am very glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley is present? As he knows and the House knows, I have not always agreed with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) on this question. I have taken a different attitude during the last 12 months; but I thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley was rather unfair in the way in which he interpreted the sentence which my right hon. and learned Friend used yesterday. I did not hear the speech but I have read it, and I certainly never thought that my right hon and learned Friend intended to insinuate or to suggest that the Labour party at the next election were going to declare that they were going to repeal this Act with a view to making intimidation possible, or to making—[HON. MEMBERS: "He said that quite definitely; He meant it!") At any rate, my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley has rendered a very great service in making it absolutely clear that my right hon. and learned Friend never intended anything of the kind, and never said anything of the kind.
  I want to say with regard to the propositions or the aims laid down by the Prime Minister, which we all accept, that this Bill goes far beyond them, and it makes an excuse of the imperfections of trade union law in order to create injustice. I challenge the urgency and wisdom of this Bill. I say, and I repeat it in spite of what the Attorney-General said, that it is not expedient. "Expediency" is another word for wisdom. I say it is inexpedient in effect, on the same grounds that the Prime Minister objected to it two years

  1809
  ago, in the very impressive speech which he delivered on that occasion. The Attorney-General was good enough to say about the party with which I am associated that in taking this line we were placing a very high value on expediency and a very low value on political honesty. What does expediency mean in this connection? It means this: "You may have a Measure the principles of which are quite just—the Prime Minister himself described the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) as a Bill in the justice of which he believed—but which is provocative of disturbance, which stirs up unrest and which at that moment it is unwise in the interests of the public to press through. That is what I mean by expediency.
  The Attorney-General is the last man in the world who is in a position to take up this line. In 1923, he delivered speeches in the country in which he said:
  "Unemployment is the one vital dominating question. The Prime Minister has discovered the remedy. The remedy is high tariffs and Protection."
  That was in 1923. In 1924, unemployment was practically the same. When the election came, unemployment had been going up gradually for two or three months. What did the Attorney-General do then, with his one vital remedy? He looked round and he said: "If I go and support and advocate the one vital remedy, there are hundreds of thousands of free traders who will not vote for me and my party." He dropped it; he contracted out; he subordinated it. He put a low value on political honesty and a high one on expediency. That is why he is Attorney-General to-day. This is the right hon. and learned Gentleman who lectures his political opponents upon the exalted principles of political honesty!
  There are many Measures which, if you examine their Clauses and details, may be perfectly just on their merits but which it is the height of unwisdom at certain junctures in the history of this country, having regard to conditions, to introduce and press through. There is no political party which does not know that there are Measures of that kind in its repertoire. Take the Conservative party. There is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wells. He knows very well that the Conservative party is associated with the National Union of Conservative Associations, which has
  1810
  been passing all sorts of resolutions for Bills, for years and years and years, and making appeals to their leaders, who turn deaf ears to them, why? Not because they disbelieve in these principles, but because they think it is extremely inexpedient at that moment to press them forward. This is not a question of political expediency; it is a question of national expediency. The Prime Minister has been quoted over and over again from his famous speech, in which he said:
  "We believe in the justice of this Bill which has been brought in to-day; but we are going to withdraw our hand, and we are not going to push our political advantage home at a moment like this. Suspicion is preventing stability in Europe and is the one poison that is preventing stability at home."
  6.0 p.m.
  When he made that declaration, it was hailed by his own party and by many outside his own party as a very sublime deed of statesmanship. It would have been more sublime if he had stuck to it. The Prime Minister says: "Circumstances have changed." If circumstances have changed, then that is an argument of expediency. The conditions were such two years ago that although it was just it was inexpedient. He says the circumstances have so changed today that what was inexpedient two years ago is necessary now. Let us examine that. What are the circumstances which have changed? Since then you have had the general strike. Let us examine that. I say, and I propose to give my reasons, that so far from the general weakening the position of the Minister two years ago it really strengthens it. Why do I say that? The general strike was a complete and humiliating failure. It was a failure within a week. [An HON. MEMBER: "No thanks to you!"] I can answer that, and I will do so in a sentence. The very organisation which the Government used was the organisation which was set up by the Government of which I was the head in 1921. The general strike demonstrated what was in doubt before, that no general strike can succeed in this country against the will of the community. What happened as the result of it—and this is rather important when you come to consider the question of the probability of its renewal? The trade union funds were

  1811
  bankrupted, the terms that were imposed were, to say the least, humiliating. I cannot conceive that any trade union in its senses, having regard to the experiment of last year, will ever dream of repeating it, and I feel confident that they will not. I go beyond that. [An HON. MEMBER: "Thee have already threatened it."] No they have not. There is just one man, and I will come to him later. At that time it was generally acknowledged that the general strike was illegal. It was not found necessary by the Government to put into operation the legal powers they had. It was suppressed without them.
  I ask the Solicitor-General: In what respect were the Government hampered in the least by any defect in the law? If they wanted to prosecute, it was an illegality, but very wisely they did not, because there was a much more effective way of bringing the strike to an end, It was not even found necessary to put the existing law into operation. In spite of that a Bill is introduced to amend the law when the powers the Government had at that time were not put into operation. I ask the Solicitor-General this question: Suppose they had all these powers in May, 1926, in what respect could they have curtailed that general strike by a single day? [An HON. MEMBER: "Prevented it,"] How could they have prevented it? That is what I want to know. There were two ways in which they could have done it, one by an injunction to prevent the unions using their funds. The miners did not have enough money to carry their fight for a single month—[An HON. MEMBER: A week"]—for a single week, but they went on for seven months in spite of that fact. Does anyone imagine that these powerful unions, if you had withdrawn every penny from them, could not have carried on that strike for 0longer than 10 days, which is the time it lasted, when the miners carried on theirs for the whole seven months? You are not going to stop a general strike in six days instead of 10 merely because you enjoin them in regard to funds. As a matter of fact, it would have been the best thing in the world for the National Union of Railwaymen if an injunction had been granted.
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS Mr. J. H. THOMAS indicated assent.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGEMy right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) would now be saying "God bless the Attorney-General !" As a matter of fact, it would have strengthened trade unions in that respect and not weakened them. What is really the most shattering fact of the general strike is that it dissipated the reserves of the trade unions. This Bill would not in respect of funds have curtailed the general strike by a single day. What else could you have done? I heard the answer given to the right hon. Member for Collie Valley with regard to the prosecution of four or five million persons out on strike. The answer was, "Oh, no, we would prosecute the leaders." As I understand, the last general strike was illegal and you could have prosecuted them. The Government, wisely, did nothing of the kind. If they had, that strike would have lasted much longer. I am going to talk quite plainly and in a way in which my hon. Friends above the Gangway cannot talk. What would you have done? You would have put into prison men who went into the general strike reluctantly, hesitating, and not believing in it—it is no use pretending—and you would have substituted for them men who really believed in it. If you had put them into prison you would have simply had a third set who would have been still more resolute.
  There is not a Clause in this Bill which krill stop a general strike, but there are many that will prolong it. The Prime Minister himself, speaking after the general strike—I was present in the House—made a speech which showed that at that time he was still of the same opinion as he was in March, 1925, when he delivered his great speech. In answer to the Leader of the Opposition, who was apprehensive of legislation of this kind and who made an appeal to the Government, the Prime Minister said there would be no attack on trade unionism as such. I do not think it is open to anyone to say that he has broken any pledge; but let me point out the words the Prime Minister used, which showed that he had a little more in his mind than that. He referred in that speech to the people among the employers and

  1813
  workmen who were anxious for trouble, who stir up trouble, and he said:
  "Let us get the waters calm as soon as we can lest their work"—
  That is the work of these mischief makers—
  "spoils the work of half a century."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th May, 1926; col. 1051, Vol. 195.]
  There is only one meaning to that, and it is that at that moment the Prime Minister was of the opinion that the general strike was not a justification in his mind for departing from his great mission of peace and conciliation between the classes in this country. That was his feeling, his sentiment and his conviction then. I honestly believe that it is his conviction at this moment. The only circumstances that have changed are not the industrial circumstances. The whole explanation was given by the right hon. Member for Wells when he gave a detailed account of the pressure which had been exercised by the political organisations behind him. That is the real explanation. Every argument drawn from the failure of the general strike is an argument for proceeding with the work of conciliation. The Prime Minister, the day before he delivered that speech in this House, delivered an equally remarkable speech at Birmingham at the meeting of the Midland Conservative Association. He was then in favour of peace. He was then pointing out the dangers ahead, dangers coming from the evolution of industry, things beyond our control, things in themselves perhaps beneficent, but which had not yet fully developed—the development of great organisations and associations amongst the employers, the gigantic developments, on the other hand, of trade unions in labour—new features not yet settled down, and he wisely said that what was wanted was time for these forces to become settled, but meanwhile he said let us have peace, and referring to what was going on in Europe at Locarno and to what the Foreign Secretary was doing there, with the aid of other Ministers, he said:
  "Why should this be confined to peace abroad? There are questions of more vital moment to us on this side of the Channel. Why must we reserve all our talk of peace and our prayers for peace for the Continent and forget to offer our talks and prayers for peace at home?"
  1814
  I am sorry the Prime Minister has given in at the first check. The check of the general strike was a, serious one, I agree. It was a provocation to him to leave the path of a messenger of peace. But there were many checks in Europe, too, with regard to Locarno, there were many excuses for abandoning the policy of the Foreign Secretary and his associates and it was nearly wrecked. There were many people who wanted it to be wrecked. In fact, the same people in France and in this country were practically urging that this course should be taken. The Foreign Secretary and his associates stood by their policy in spite of it, and they achieved a very remarkable triumph. I wish the Prime Minister had been true to the words he used and b-d pursued, in spite of what happened last year, his peaceful policy of conciliation. The trouble of this Bill is that it does not deal with the realities of the nation, with the real needs of the nation. You may impound all the funds of the unions and imprison their leaders, you may cripple their political funds, you may do more than that, but you cannot force workmen to work better or to work more efficiently by any Act of Parliament you can pass. That is the thing that is essential at this moment. That depends on one thing, and that is goodwill.
  You cannot stop the developments of the last few years which have increased the stoppages through labour disputes. The Prime Minister dealt with this and I, once before, quoted the figures in this House. It was not the general strike that did the damage last year; it was the stoppage in the mines. I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer after the general strike was over get up at that Table and give the figures of the loss to this country attributable to the general strike, and everybody was very surprised and pleased that the losses were not greater. But I also heard him give an account of the losses to the revenue and to the trade and industry of this country due to the stoppage in the mines. What is this Bill for? It is a Bill which is introduced to deal with the first, which no one except a few extremists believes can be repeated, and it is a Bill that will not touch the other which caused gigantic losses to this country. If anyone will take the trouble, which I took, to look up the losses due to stoppages in this country through

  1815
  trade disputes—I will give the figures, again dividing them into seven-year periods—for 14 years before the War and the seven or eight years after the War, he will find that in the first seven years there were so many days lost; in the second seven years there was double the number of days lost, and in the seven or eight years since the War, he will find that we have doubled the number for the second period and more.
  What I want to point out is that this Bill does not deal with that problem at all. Conciliation, improvement in conditions: There have been suggestions that you might improve your machinery of conciliation. We have, I think, on the whole, the best machinery of conciliation almost in the world in some of our trades in this country. In the iron and steel trade you have had no great dispute for 50 years. In the boot and shoe trade there has been no great dispute for 30 years. The cotton trade has been very free and the shipbuilding industry has already put up another agreement which I hope will avert trouble there. It would have been worth the Government's while investigating the question of whether it is not possible somehow to expedite and facilitate methods of conciliation such as Whitley Councils and others. That they have neglected. But the most important thing of all is not the machinery, but the spirit. No machinery will be of the slightest use if you have bad feeling, bad temper excited by any cause, whether by the 'Government or otherwise, and the Government have just thrown this discord into the trades, at a time when it is essential that you should have goodwill. I wonder whether the Prime Minister has seen the appeal —I think it was directed to himf—from the National Industrial Alliance, founded to secure friendly relations between employers and workmen. I understand my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley referred to it, but I think it is so important that it is worth referring to it again.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I only mentioned it.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Then if the House will permit me I will refer to it again. I do not know who are the workmen who are in that body, and for this purpose it does not matter, but you have
  1816
  there some of the greatest captains of industry, some of the largest employers of labour in this country—Sir Arthur Pease, Sir Hugh Bell, and Sir Edward Manville—who was a Member of this House, a very highly respected Conservative Member of this House—[Laughter.] I do not see why that should be a source of laughter. I repeat it—a very highly respected Member of this House. There are several other men who are engaged in some of the biggest industries of this country, and this is their appeal to the Prime Minister:
  "The Alliance, representative of both employers and workmen, is of opinion that the Trades Disputes and Trade Unions Bill will seriously prejudice the movement for industrial peace, and will hamper the revival of trade, two independent needs vital to the industry of the country at the present time. Further, the introduction of the Bill has already developed antagonisms between employers and employed just when industrial relations are beginning to improve,"
  and then they make the appeal to the Prime Minister. I ask this question of the Government representative to-night. Can he give me a single request that has come from any great industrial combination of men, actually engaged in industry, asking him to bring in this Bill—any one? I am not thinking merely of workmen's associations but of employers' associations. There are several employers who are opposed to it root and branch and think it is fatal. There are several, no doubt, who probably see in it a way of going back upon their surrender to trade unionism which is quite recent. After all, trade unionism in the railway world is only a new recognition. In 1907, when I, as President of the Board of Trade, tried to settle a dispute between the railwaymen and the employers the managers and directors would not receive the representative of the union. It is a new thing.
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Only after the War.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is so; it is quite a new thing, and I have no doubt at all that a great many of them are resenting it, and that some of them, in their hearts, would like to go back upon it. But the majority of employers, I believe, mean to work it honestly, and they are frightened by this Bill. The fact of the matter is that this Bill is dictated by political expediency entirely.

  1817
  The Government have forgotten the depression in trade and have tried to remedy the depression in the circumstances of the Tory party. This is not a Bill for trade recovery, but for Tory recovery. But once you embark upon this line, it will be very difficult to stop. Other countries have discovered that, including Italy. You may carry the Bill; that is not the end of it. I know it is said that the agitation is merely engineered from the top. After all, most agitations must be co-ordinated and engineered from the top. Even the Conservative agitation for the Bill is engineered from the top. The 5,000,000 leaflets are not printed in the industrial districts. They are all printed here within a short distance of this House.
  I am not complaining of it. I have taken part in these agitations myself, but there is one thing that those—and I see many of them here—who take part in agitations know that with a population of 45,000,000, it begins slowly but it goes on increasing in momentum. Hon. Members opposite may have their agitation. My hon. and right hon. Friends above the Gangway may have theirs. There will be intense feeling on both sides. I am not in the least disagreeing with anything that has been said by my right hon. Friend about there being great feeling on the side of the Bill. But there is passionate feeling against it. How does that help the trade of the country to recover? And when the Bill is through and the agitation for it is at an end—you cannot agitate for a Measure that has been passed—the agitation against it will go on. What does that mean? It means that just as there was a new feeling creeping in— [Interruption.] It is all very well to say that Mr. Cook says there is going to be another strike. Mr. Cook was beaten at the Trade Union Congress by a two or three to one majority, and let me point out that there was no other great trade union besides his own—they stood by their secretary naturally from loyalty—behind him. Do not let us exaggerate that. There is the fact that, in spite of all his personal popularity, the organised trade union movement voted him down. Trade union leaders have been making appeals—I have been watching them in the last few months—for conciliation, for good will, for co-operation, pointing out the dangers
  1818
  to our trade. Things were improving—even in the coalfields production is better than it has been for a great many years—and you bring in a Bill of this kind which upsets everything and stirs and stimulates passion. We shall pay the penalty for it.
  Mr. JEPHCOTT: I want an opportunity to intervene for a few minutes to refer to a statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday. I think the right hon. Gentleman said that the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Spencer) was the only trade unionist who supported the Government on this question. I want to inform the Prime Minister that he is wrong, because I have been a trade unionist for over 45 years—a paying one, and not a receiving one. Let me say to my Labour friends opposite—and some of them know it already—that for over 20 years in the city to which I belong, there was no more active trade unionist than I was. I accepted the responsibilities of office without pay because I realised then, as I do now, that it is the duty of workmen to organise legitimately for the benefit of themselves and their families. I worked in that sphere, and some hon. Members opposite may ask me why I am not working with them now. Some of them, possibly, have a personal respect for an old man like me, and I will tell them that the difficulty they are in to-day arises from the fact that they gave up industrial action and took to political action. Since that period, from about 1906, the skilled organisations of this country and many of the labouring organizations—have they gained anything out of political activity? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] They have not, and you know they have not.
  You know, some of you who are in agreement with me as to the necessity for trade unionism, that in the early days of trade unionism, when it was not so fashionable as it is now, when men did not go to courts and garden parties, but went to their meetings in their slacks after they had done a day's work, we had our hearts in it industrially, and at that time, when we were not fashionable, we did more for the uplifting of the class I belong to than has been done during the past 10 or 15 years. Some of you know that,, even in the engineers' dispute for an eight-hours

  1819
  day, I was not outside. I faced the music when other men were frightened, and I would face the music to-day with you if you would drop your political point of view, and be prepared to take a man of my standing into your industrial activity. Let me tell you a little story. Notwithstanding that I had left the factory for some years, the engineer members of certain branches in the Kingdom nominated me to go to election as a candidate for this House. Our executive wrote to me, and said was nominated, and they asked what were my views. I said that on trade union questions I was prepared to sign any document they submitted, and that I would loyally support the Labour party in the House of Commons on industrial points, but that on the question of the disestablishment of the Church—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] Well, that is not industrial work. But on that and other germane subjects, in which I, in my quiet way, have assisted the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) more than once, I was not allowed to be a candidate.
  Is that your liberty? Is that your desire, as was read in my own organisation in the reading-in years ago, to welcome "men of all creeds and all politics" into your trade unions? Do you do it now? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] You do not. I say to some of you that men's lives are made uncomfortable. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] You have had your innings. It is rarely that I speak in this House, and I have not spoken because of the old associations with many men on that side. That is true, and my friends know it, but if I do speak, and if you do not agree with me, listen, because I have not interrupted you. I say then that men who are Liberal trade unionists, men who are Conservative trade unionists, feel the pressure of the political activity of the Labour party, either in the workshops or in the factories. If the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) were here, I would say to him, that I personally know a man who, in the general strike, or lock-out, or dispute a year ago, remained loyal to his employers, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, and it is only this last week that he has been to tell me, not that there is that
  1820
  concord which the Labour party preach, but that he can hardly pursue his occupation because of the quiet hostility of men who came out on strike when he remained in. [An HON. MEMBER: "We can give you hundreds on the other side victimised!"] I am not an under-dog to you, and do not forget that.
  I have quietly, as my friends know, done my duty to the class to which I belong, and I want to support the hon. Member for Broxtowe, who has come out into the open, who has had the courage of hips convictions, who has risked popularity, and who has been charged with receiving money for work that he does. Let me incidentally ask how many of you, and I, have received money for the work we have done. I wish my political opponents in the Labour party would give us, who are as anxious as we can be for the uplifting of our class, the same credit for honesty of purpose that we were prepared to give to them. The hon. Member who was driven out of office had, not on his own initiative, but on the initiative of other men, formed an organisation, I will not say that is in the true sense hostile to the Miners' Federation, but that is a new departure, a departure that this Bill is going to encourage and increase, a departure back—[Interruption]. I am not an Irishman, and I cannot understand what you say. May I remind some of my hon. Friends opposite that I have had an experience at street corners the same as they have, and I know the dodges that they can get up to, as I have got up to?
  The attitude of the hon. Member for Broxtowe has brought into being, not hostility to trade unionism, but hostility to the political aspect of it, and when we get this Measure on the Statute Book, I deny your right—you can come to Birmingham and go for me if you like—to say that the legitimate trade unionist is going to be destroyed by a Bill of this sort. Even the first Clause, which has created so much opposition and difficulty, as to a sympathetic strike, does not seem to me to have all the terrors that our opponents put down to it. Let me, in my simple way, give an illustration of what I mean. In my own city we have large bedstead factories, and there are iron casters and brass workers. If the iron casters came out for an increased rate, and the men in that industry,

  1821
  although not in their trade, the brass workers, came out to support them, I do not think any Prime Minister or anyone else could deny that it was a legal, sympathetic strike, but if, as happened in the general strike, the tramway men in Birmingham were to come out in sympathy with the brass workers, that would not be a sympathetic strike; that would be an attack on the Corporation. I say, therefore, in regard to this Clause, that there is not the fear that some of our friends will try to make out there is.
  With regard to some of the other Clauses, I will not go into them in detail, because I have almost exceeded my time now, but let me go into the question, I will not say of the Capital Levy—I will not make that mistake, because you have forgotten what that means—but of the political levy. Some of you may be surprised and may open your eyes—but do not open your mouths—when I say that I pay the political levy. I pay a political levy, but do not go and glory in the fact that you have got someone returned to the fold, because you have not. I pay the political levy so that I can have a go at some of you men, and I have done it many times successfully, and may do it again. That does not mean that, because I have got impudence, other men have it likewise. There are many quiet trade unionists who do not believe in political activity, but who will not go to the branches to face the music, not because you are ogres or anything like that, but because they do not want to mark themselves out. It is true, my friends, and you know it as well as I do, and it is that type of man that I sympathise with, and that I want not to be called upon to pay for what he does not want to pay for, but to let the man who does believe in political activity pay for his opinions.
  Some of you will pay, because you know as well as I know that when men have to say they will pay they have a happy knack of sending their children and wives to the branches, and do not go themselves. It will not be an agitation against this Bill that you will have to get up; it will be an agitation to get money out of your supporters who agree with political action. Devote yourselves to that. I heard it said, I think, this morning in a Committee room that if this Bill passed, certain of the hon.
  1822
  Members opposite would have to clear out. I do not believe it. I do not believe you have not got wit enough to find means by which you can come here, if you want to, but I do say to you, in the exercise of that wit, and, shall I add, humanity—you have some of it, like me—Use it on your own friends, and not on your opponents. If you will do that, if you will endeavour to work this Bill, not with unmeasured hostility, but with an honest endeavour to see whether there is anything in it worthy of support, I say that, if I should be in the next House of Commons, although I am almost getting too old for it, and you as a Labour party can show me—and you know I am open to conviction—that parts of this Bill are destructive to your activity, your honour, and your work, I think I can say, along with the hon. Member for Broxtowe, that both of us would stand up and speak and vote for and support you in your opposition to details of this Measure.
  Forgive me for exceeding my time. I do not like to break a promise. I am not a lady, and, although it has no relation to the Bill itself, I have found by experience that many men tell tales that have no relation to what they are talking about. It is done here, it is done elsewhere; shall I do it? There was a certain lady going to elections—you send them; women have not got all that cheek to go to them, only just a very few of the straight-laced ones—who used to pursue me at every meeting at the last election. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] Ah! I had to tell her this: "I am not married"—you ladies here can remember that— "I am not going to get married, and, if I were, I would not marry you."
  Miss WILKINSON: I find it a little difficult to follow the excellent speech which has been made by the hon. Member opposite, in view of his concluding remarks, because I am afraid he will go from this House to his constituency and say that not only did the women follow him at his election—
  Mr. JEPHCOTT: I did not say you.
  Miss WILKINSON:—but, alas, they followed him in this House also. I am afraid the hon. Member's remarks with regard to women Members are rather like his remarks with regard to trade unionism in general; they are rather old-

  1823
  fashioned. While we respect his grey hairs and the long work he has put in in the trade unionist movement, we realise that he speaks for a past generation. Previous speakers have pointed out many peculiar features of this Bill, including the new crimes which have been created, and the general feeling of uncertainty which will be left as to what trade unionists will or will not be able to do. The most amazing thing about both the Debate in this House and the advocacy of the Bill in the country has been the curious misunderstanding of working-class psychology shown by the Tory party. I think the hon. Member for Yardley (Mr. Jephcott) understands that very much better than many of those who have spoken with him. They do not realise that though trade unionists may grumble, that though minorities may want this or that alteration, the trade unions which have been built up during more than a century are a very sacred thing indeed to the working classes of this country.
  I am going to ask certain hon. Members of this House, such as the hon. Member for Stockton (Captain Macmillan), the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper), and other hon. Members for working-class constituencies, whether it is not the fact that while minorities here and there are prepared to grumble, the mass of trade unionists are extremely suspicious when employers show any considerable interest in their trade union. I want to give an illustration of that from a side of this question which has not yet been touched on in this Debate. A prominent supporter of the Government, addressing a large meeting of women about this Bill, made the following statement:
  "The Government will protect the working class wife and mother from having her income suddenly interrupted by wild cat folly like the general strike; and will protect her and her husband if they decide together that he shall work and not strike. This Bill will protect her and hers from hatred, ridicule and contempt."
  I have already heard a Conservative meeting for working women addressed on those lines. It is rather from the point of view of the working women and their attitude with regard to the Bill that I wish to speak.
  The working women of this country would be exceedingly glad to have some
  1824
  protection from this Government. They would like some protection from the profiteer; they would like some protection from the price-fixing associations, about whom evidence has been given before the Food Council, who are able to raise the price of food in a time when wages are low; they would like protection from such associations as were referred to by an hon. Member who spoke about farmers pouring milk down the drains rather than allow it to be sold at a low price. These are all things done by employers' trade unions, but there is not one word in this Bill as to how the women are to be protected in that respect.
  They are to be protected from intimidation. I can understand a woman being very much upset when a crowd of men come round her house at night because her husband is going to work, but I can understand her being still more upset when the employer sends his foreman or his manager, as was done in a very large number of cases during the recent coal dispute, to tell that woman that, unless she persuades her husband to go to work, there will be no more work for her husband or her son, and that she will have to leave the tied cottage, which belongs to the colliery. While I admit that a number of men round your house may be unpleasant, it is much more serious intimidation to go into that woman's house and tell her that there is not going to be any more work for her husband or her son unless she brings influence upon her husband to persuade him to go to work. It is very curious that the Government should only want to protect a working woman from her fellow working men, that they should only want to protect a woman from the organisation that exists to improve her husband's wages and conditions. If, as the Tory party say, this Bill is to be a charter of protection for the workingwoman, let us have protection all round. Let us give her protection from the employer who reduces her husband's wages and increase her prices. There is not one single word of that protection in this Bill.
  I would like to know how this protection is going to be given. The Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General are very clever men, and it may be possible for them, though I do not know how they are going to do it, to deal with the case

  1825
  of men meeting in a public house, such as the right hon Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) referred to. I would like to ask the Solicitor-General, since he is here, how he proposes to protect the wife of a blackleg and the blackleg himself from the hatred, contempt and ridicule of the women in a mining village, or anywhere else where there is a large strike? How is he going to force Mrs. Striker to speak to Mrs. Blackleg if she does not wish to do so? Are the local police to keep lists of the number of times Mrs. Brown asked Mrs. Jones to tea previous to a dispute and the number of times she asks her afterwards? Are we going to have policemen calling on the wife of a striker and saying, "Mrs. Brown is in tears because you are not asking 'her to tea any more. You did it before the strike, and unless you ask her to tea you are bringing her into hatred, ridicule and contempt. She is very much upset about it, and unless you ask her to tea you will have to go to prison." I would like to ask the Attorney-General whether he proposes to send policemen into the sewing meeting of the local church? I have attended those functions, and I know something about them, and I can imagine that the wife of a striker and the wife of a blackleg will have a distinctly unhappy time.
  I regret that the Solicitor-General is not prepared to enlighten us on these important matters, but I would like to know whether there are any means by which the ladies congregated round the church sewing-machine can be prevented from showing their hatred, ridicule and contempt of the woman whose husband has gone to work and so helped to break a strike for better wages. I do not know whether we are going to have a new Tory commandment added to the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt love the neighbour that tries to take the bread from thy children's mouths." If that is the position of the Tory party, they are going to have an extraordinary difficult time. They can legislate against overt crimes, but I cannot see how they are going to legislate against people showing their feelings towards those who are attempting to break a dispute when the men are engaged in what they believe is a fight for their lives.
  I was very much struck by a remark made by a woman in my constituency when I was pointing out that one might
  1826
  be sent to prison for calling a man a blackleg. She said, "Oh, well, that does not matter, we will call him a Douglas Hogg." That raises a very interesting point. Suppose a bench of magistrates were dealing with a striker who had called a blackleg a "Douglas Hogg." Would the magistrates decide that it was a term of ridicule or contempt? It will be a very difficult position for men who have any respect for our learned Attorney-General, and I have no doubt whatever that that woman's phrase is likely to be current in any dispute of the kind.
  Tory speakers in this Debate have said the working class are not excited about this Bill. I think that on the whole that is rather true, but I think it is because they know perfectly well that this Bill will not work. If they want to strike they will strike, and nothing we can do will prevent them. It may be asked, "Then why this opposition to the Bill?" It is because when you get a Bill like this the danger lies in the fear of petty tyranny towards the obscure man. It is not men like my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald), or even Mr. A. J. Cook, who are the victims of a Government at the time of a dispute. During the late dispute the safest person in this country was Arthur Cook, because the Government knew perfectly well what would be the effect of putting a man like that in prison. The whole difficulty centres round the obscure man, the man in the little village, the man who is at the mercy of every small informer and his wife. When I was going round hundreds of small mining villages in my capacity as a member of the Miners' Relief Committee, I saw the amount of petty tyranny that was going on, the number of people who went round to the police and said, "So-and-so has called me a blackleg." Even then men and women were put in prison because it was said they had intimidated others.
  7.0 p.m.
  The hon. Member who spoke before me said that women always break their word. I do not propose to break mine. I would like to say, in conclusion, that the Conservative party as a whole has entirely misunderstood the psychology of the

  1827
  working classes. There are men like the previous speaker who are the malcontents, the minority, but, if you have a great wave of working-class feeling like you had last May on the part of men who were not concerned with coercing any Government but who were concerned in showing their sympathy with the miners—if you have that spirit again, you will have the same result, not because the leaders want it, or because the men consciously want it, but because you have a great mass wave of sympathy that nothing is going to prevent. If, as the result of that, you put 5,000,000 working men in prison, you will have 5,000,000 working women behind them ready to go too.
  Mr. JAMES KIDD: Beginning with the Prime Minister's speech yesterday, we are getting into a bigger region in this Debate than that of mere legal interpretation. In the opening part of his speech the right hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) said truly that one may agree or disagree with this Bill, but it is certainly a Bill with the most far-reaching effects. I entirely agree, and I think we do well to try and discover in this Debate—as a supporter of the Bill I see them—the sane possibilities of the Measure. The legal points for and against the Bill have been canvassed with great ability and rare acuteness. The ability of the legal discussion has been such as to attract Members from all sides of the House. However, am I not right in saying that the man in the street, the worker, will apply a larger test to this Bill? His test will be whether the Bill will tend to promote conditions likely to encourage greater prosperity in industry and whether the Bill is thereby likely to increase the wage fund of the workers. The right hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Shaw) made an observation—and I think the same line was taken to-day by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden)—to the effect that it was impossible to discover the relation between the political levy and the general strike. The very fact that the right hon. Member for Colne Valley fails to grasp the very direct relation between the political levy and the general strike is a conclusive proof to me of the extraordinary confusion that has been created even in the best of minds by the intermixing of politics and industry.
  Mr. J. H. THOMAS: Why?
  Mr. KIDD: The right hon. Member for Derby, who very properly asks why, will agree with me that the very basis of the Socialist party and the excuse for its confusion of politics and industry is to be discovered in the slogan "The Solidarity of Labour." Am I not right in saying that the general strike is the last phase of the dogma of solidarity? What do you mean by solidarity? Do you mean to suggest that by some device you can eliminate that competition which exists between man and man, firm and firm, industry and industry? Can you eliminate that law, which is designed not by this party or that, but is part of the scheme of providence to protect the consumer? If you do not propose that what do you propose I If you propose that then the solidarity of labour is truly nonsense. If you agree with that view then the direct result of this cry "The solidarity of labour" when you materialise it and put it to the test is the general strike. I see the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) shakes his head.
  Mr. THOMAS: I shook my head because it appeared to me that the hon. Member was getting confused. Did he suggest that the political levy was not urged in order to secure that representation through this House which is much better than any general strike?
  Mr. KIDD: The right hon. Member avoids my point with characteristic skill. I shall clear it up. My point is that this doctrine of the solidarity of labour is ruinous to the competitive industry. We seek for the prosperity of the country not in the arbitrary wage of the service or sheltered industry; you find the evidence of our prosperity in the value of the wage fund of the competitive and unsheltered industries. That prosperity will reflect itself inevitably in an increased wage for the man in the sheltered industry. How does this cry for the solidarity of labour work? I am a member for a mining constituency. I was its member during the mining dispute in 1921 and also during the mining dispute in 1926. Am I not right in saying that in 1921 the miners were encouraged to believe that, in proof of the solidarity of labour, they would have the support of

  1829
  the railway men? What happened? When the precipice was reached the miners went over alone; the railway men were wisely advised to avoid it. What did that represent? It represented that the right hon. Member for Derby had turned his back upon the political slogan when it came against the industrial test, and the miners were left alone. In 1926 again the miners were encouraged to believe that, as a proof of the solidarity of labour, they would have the support of all classes of the community.
  What happened then? The miners toppled over, but the railwaymen were rightly advised by their distinguished leader to get back to solid ground in a very short time. If the miners' leaders had taken the industrial stand with the miners there would have been no stoppage. If the right hon. Member for Derby had not as a politician misled the miners there would have been no stoppage. The right hon. Member for Derby qua politician encouraged the miners of my county and of every other county to believe that they would have the support of the railwaymen; the right hon. Member for Derby qua railway adviser took his stand on both occasions on sound economic facts to save his own men. When it came to the industrial tussle he had to stand by his men. Where is the identity of interest between the railwayman and the miner? Between the sheltered trade with an arbitrary wage and the unsheltered trade with the competitive wage? The railways belong to the former—sheltered with competitive wage, to maintain which wage they want to keep down other costs—notably coal, of which they are large consumers. On the other hand, the miner's is an industry which, however much it may have resembled a monopoly in days gone by, is to-day most intensively competitive. It has to meet foreign coal, oil and hydroelectric power. Therefore, it cannot have an arbitrary wage. The miner must take an economic wage. Being a producer of coal, he as naturally wishes coal to be dear to sustain his wage. The antagonism is clear. If you had a long strike, the right hon. Member for Derby would be faced with his men asking him: "Are you using us for political purposes Do you suggest an identity of interests between us and the miners?" The right hon. Gentleman anticipated that, and that is the reason why the railways went on.
  1830
  But what has happened? I know those miners. They were at the village school with me, I have played on the cricket and football field with them, I hold their affection and I hold their confidence professionally. I see hundreds of men in my own district in middle life, whose savings of a lifetime have been scattered away, and who in middle life are asked to face a dismal prospect of broken wage and broken time. Why have they suffered so? They hays suffered because of the abuses of the trade unions for political purposes. Some have pretended that this Bill will prejudicially affect the unions. Is there any earthly reason, apart from a few political ambitions, why the unions in this country should not pursue the policy now more and more pursued by the American unions? Can it be doubted that the prosperity of America is due to the spread of peace in industry? To a spread of peace which arises there from the fact that the unions are establishing more and more conditions wherein all in industry through union investment are there in a common character however varied in degree, with a common knowledge of their industry? In that common knowledge you have peace as certainly as you have serious unrest as a result of a common ignorance here, because there is not here as in America the common outlook.
  I am distinguishing between the industries of America where these doctrines apply and where you have peace and those industries where they do not apply and where you have occasionally unrest. I suggest that the unions' contribution to peace in America is a large one. You may say that there are physical conditions in America explaining the prosperity there as compared with the absence of prosperity here. There are no such physical conditions. The raw resources of America are trivial as compared with our Colonies. In transportation the rail freight of America will be found to be not favourable as compared with our shipping freight. Take again the case of man power and there again the Mackenzie Commission says we are not second in the world. In the matter of machinery and of conditions of work they again report that we are not behind. On the last analysis, you will find that the source of American prosperity lies in the constitutional fact that the American Constitution—which in a republic can keep clearer

  1831
  than our old monarchical Constitution can, the doctrine of individual freedom—because our graded society assists confusion—that American Constitution reinforced by anti-trust law, has shut the unions off from political action. So shut off, they have taken naturally and easily to the industrial line and investment, finishing with those labour banks, which in six years' time have accumulated disposits to the tune. of £22,000,000.
  I shall venture during the Committee stage to put down Amendments along the lines of bringing directly to the worker the knowledge that his union as a matter of right may secure what allotment it wishes in any public issue in which its men are interested. I know the reply may be that I am going too far; that the Bill itself will create conditions similar to those in America so that the unions here may develop along the same lines. There are three replies to that argument. The first is that this Bill will not get rid of the constitutional differences which I have mentioned. In the second place, I would say that America is not the last word in political science. And lastly, as all parties are responsible for encouraging the confusion of politics and industry, it is the duty of the Government to conclusively get rid of the confusion by bringing home to the individual worker the simple fact that his union is invited and enabled to pursue the larger mission as the American unions more and more are doing. As one who has always taken a great interest in these matters, I welcome this Bill coming from a Conservative Government.
  It will be remembered that during the coal strike Debates the Prime Minister said that the coal industry must discover for itself or have discovered for it a system which would resent rather than invite political interference, and in that attitude he was simply pursuing the policy of his great predecessor Mr. Disraeli. Hon. Members will recollect how Mr. Disraeli defended the workers both on the spending and the earning side. His charter to the co-operative society recognised in that organisation the medium for effecting economies for the humblest worker through the group purchase of his society on behalf of its members which otherwise a worker could not effect. In other words, through the
  1832
  society he sought to introduce the worker to the current of capitalism on the spending side. Similarly, he saw in his charter to the trade union movement the possibility of employing that organisation as a medium for introducing the worker through the investment of the union to the current of capitalism on the earning side. The irony of it all is this, that because of the confusion of politics and industry emphasised since 1906 we have not pursued the policy with our unions which the intended, but on the other hand, our American cousins have done so. I welcome this Bill because of my interest in trade unions. I welcome the Bill because of the promise it holds out that trade unions will discover in it the possibility not available now of pursuing the larger mission which that great Conservative statesman intended.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: I will not follow the hon. Member who has just spoken in his analysis of the relative merits of trade unionism at home and abroad. We are all familiar with the character who believed in
  "Freedom's cause,
  "Ez fur away ez Payris is."
  I think the hon. Member has shown a keener pleasure in supporting trade unionism in America than in Linlithgow-shire which he represents. Whatever effect this Bill may have, it will have one political effect in Scotland, and that will be to change the representation of the constituency which the hon. Member for Linlithgow now represents. I now turn to the speeches which have been made from the Front Government Bench in support of this Measure. The Prime Minister stood at that Box yesterday in the garb of injured innocence, and proceeded to tell us that the working classes of this country were responsible for the introduction of this Measure. He reminded us of the developments which have taken place in the industrial field since trade union law was reviewed and revised a generation ago. He said that the workers then fought in brigades and that now they fought in armies. He told us that the small unions had federated, that we had had masses of federations, and he appeared to attribute all that working class unity to working class wickedness. The Prime Minister was never able to realise that our industrial difficulties and

  1833
  troubles have a material rather than a moral basis, and so he is always tempted to go on praying when the demands of the situation demand good works. If the right hon. Gentleman had wanted evidence of the cause of the mass federation of workers, he could have found it on the benches behind him. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) is the head of a large chemical trust. He is an owner of mines and now he has become a bank director. Is it not the most natural thing in the world that the common employés of this employer should be driven into a. federation, that the miners, the chemical workers, and the bank clerks he employs should have sympathy with one another in dealing with questions of wages. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen is a type that may truly be regarded as the father of the sympathetic strike. If the right hon. Gentleman would only turn to the other side of the Gangway on his own side of the House he would find there the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) who, I understand, is busily engaged in organising a British combine in the iron and steel industry to join a European combine, and he wants to bring into that combination the employers of France and Germany. Where will that inevitably lead? Will not the workers of the future employed by this international combine tend towards international organisation and will not the possible strike of steel workers in the future be international and not merely national in character? In these circumstances, is it fair for the Prime Minister to stand up in this House and attribute to the wickedness of the workers the mass formations into which they are being forced by the development of the capitalistic system?
  The Prime Minister proceeded to praise himself for the self-sacrificing efforts he had made to avert industrial trouble in 1926, and he told us that when the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) introduced his Trade Unions Bill that, although it had the sympathy and support of the majority of his followers, he frowned upon that Measure. He told us that he had gone further and exposed his party to a charge of cowardice by granting a subsidy to the mining community after he had declared that he would never grant that subsidy
  1834
  The Prime Minister likes to pose as a patient, honest man, but the facts are not always in favour of his honesty. In a speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman at Chippenham on 14th June, he referred to the strike that had occurred and he said:
  "It was inevitable that if the strike had not come on the 3rd of May it would have come on some other date."
  Therefore, he granted the subsidy under the belief that the strike was inevitable. He prepared, as he stated in another speech, to meet the strike, and the granting of the subsidy was part of his plan because he wanted a breathing space. As a matter of fact, the Prime Minister used the funds of the State to facilitate a class campaign. He acted as he did, he said, in order that he might avoid firing the first shot. He granted the subsidy because his ammunition was not ready, and he preferred during the operation of the subsidy not to remove the difficulties of the mining industry because he had never any intention of doing that. He appointed a Royal Commission, but refused to give statutory effects to the decisions of that Commission, and he gave as his excuse for not doing so that neither the employers nor the employed would agree with their recommendations. May I point out that the right hon. Gentleman has introduced this Bill without any anxiety at all as to whether employers and employed agree with his proposals. The right hon. Gentleman refused to give effect to the evidence given before the Samuel Commission because it tended to interfere with the class control of the industry, a principle which dominates His Majesty's Government. But I think he has been guilty of something even more shameful. Under the guise of his beloved honesty, he made an eloquent appeal to the Labour leaders of this country to assist him in creating an atmosphere in which we could avoid strife and secure peace by negotiation. The Labour leaders responded to his appeal in a manner that brought them to the verge of humiliation. The columns of the Tory Press of this country for months were filled with articles by prominent Labour leaders appealing for support for the Prime Minister's policy. Luncheons attended by employers and employés, and, I believe, patronised by the right

  1835
  hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), were held in the Savoy Hotel for the same purpose. At least one prominent Socialist leader appealed to the workers to postpone their demand for Socialism, and to concentrate meantime on securing an improvement within the capitalist system. Having in this 'manner created in the minds of a large number of workers in this country the impression that the Prime Minister was good and the employers were not bad, our Labour leaders get their reward in this Bill.
  This Bill is not designed to secure peace by negotiation. It is framed with the direct object of securing peace in industry by the use of the police, the Law Courts, the Judges, and, if necessary, the prisons. I submit that that is one of the most shameful actions of which any prominent statesman in our country has been guilty for a considerable number of years. The Attorney-General, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, submitted to the House four propositions; and he invited the House to regard these as objects with which we were all in agreement, and the Bill as calculated to give effect to those propositions. Then the right hon. and learned Gentleman very adroitly proceeded to appeal to us on this side of the House to regard ourselves as being in agreement with the objects, and differing only as to methods. He said, "The language may be vague; certain Clauses may be weak; but let us co-operate fraternally in getting a Bill that will realise the objects with which we are in general agreement." I wish, so far as I can without encroaching too much on the time of the House, to question the extent to which these four propositions laid down by the Attorney-General can be justly applied to the actions of trade unions.
  The first proposition was that the general strike is illegal. I do not think it carries us any further when we make a general statement like that. The fact of its being illegal does not touch at all the question whether it is right. A Government with the will and the power can make anything illegal. Time and circumstance to a large extent determine illegality. A monarchy is illegal in France, Germany or America, but no
  1836
  hon. Member on the other side of the House would get up and say that the institution is wrong because in certain parts of the world it is illegal. A Parliament like this is illegal in Russia; opposition to a dictatorship is illegal in Italy; but none of these circumstances determines whether or not the things that are illegal are right or wrong. What we have to discuss here is not what is legal, but what is morally justifiable. I submit that it is a misuse of words to describe what occurred last year as a general strike. At no time were there more than 20 per cent. of the workers of this country in the field, and to describe as a general strike a situation in which 80 per cent. of the workers continued in employment is, as I have said, a misuse of the English language. A general strike is a practical impossibility. There are certain workers without whose services even a strike could not survive, and the party opposite, the representatives of the Government and their supporters, know quite well that you cannot have a general strike.
  What this Bill is aimed at is a sympathetic strike. It is a sympathetic strike that we have to justify, and I, for one, to my own conscience have no difficulty whatever in finding justification for it. Everyone admits the right of the individual to withhold his labour if he so desires; it is the mark of distinction between a free man and a slave. But to-day the wages of workers are not settled individually. The worker has no choice in the matter. He is not free to negotiate individually with his employer. Wages are settled in the mass formation form to which the Prime Minister referred, and, whether the railway worker or the miner likes it or not, his employers and his fellow-workers insist on collective bargaining with regard to wages, and he has to accept those conditions. How, then, could it be maintained that, while an individual is forced to sink his individuality in bargaining for wages, you are thereby justified in depriving him of his free man's liberty? I submit that that is a position which cannot be justified. And not only that; I go further, and say that that principle carries us far beyond the bounds of any particular Industry. We are told by speakers on the Front Bench that, while that may be true of, say, a man engaged in the

  1837
  railway service, it does not justify an engineer in going to the assistance of the railway workers. But I submit that it does. For years Lord Weir and others have carried on a campaign to draw attention to the disparity in wages between the employés in sheltered and in competitive industries, and have pointed to the importance of reducing wages in the sheltered trades in order to enable employers in the competitive trades to deal with their workers in a manner that would enable them to compete with the foreigner in the neutral markets of the world. If Lord Weir be right, if all that Lord Weir represents be right, in the contention that the engineers' wages are determined by the wages of the railway workers, then, when the railway workers are fighting for a standard of wages, are they not at the same time fighting for a standard of wages for engineers; and, in these circumstances, how can the engineers be morally prevented from going to the assistance of their railway fellow-workers? I submit that there is no case against the moral justification for a sympathetic strike. Whether it is wise or not, whether it is good tactics for the workers to adopt, is beside the question altogether. The wisdom or folly of such action is a question for the workers, and for the workers only, to determine, and is one that is beyond the jurisdiction of this House.
  Then we are told that intimidation is illegal. That is all right in the abstract; intimidation is illegal; but I have no doubt that all the legal magnates who rise in this House and tell us these things know of cases where they would justify even violence, and have justified violence, in the Courts. If a man proceeds to attack me in order to rob me of my watch, any of these legal gentleman would find legal justification for my knocking that man down; and, if I may use intimidation against a man in such circumstances, if I may be very threatening, even though I stop short of action, against a man who wishes to rob me of my watch, how can it be argued that I am not morally entitled to go a long way against the man who tries to deprive me of my bread? If we may take a case in point, it might be this, that if 600,000 railwaymen decide to-morrow to resist a reduction in wages,
  1838
  and if, among that 600,000, there is a minority of 100,000, the ballot being five to one in favour of a strike, it is quite clear that, if the minority of 100,000 continue at their work, they may, and probably will, determine, not merely the wages of themselves, but the wages of the majority as well. It would be all right to grant this freedom to the minority if they were only, by their blacklegging, determining their own wage conditions; but on what grounds are you going to justify a minority of one in six determining the wages of the majority of the workers? There can be no justification for that, and I submit that it is as big a crime to deprive a man and his wife and children of their daily bread as it is to deprive a man of certain forms of property. Therefore, there is nothing extraordinary in the fact that the law as it stands to-day allows workers to go a long way towards persuading a minority of their fellow workers, in a time of industrial strife, to abide by the decision of the majority. It is exactly the same procedure as is adopted by the State. When a nation goes to war, where are the rights of the minority? The nation claims that it is fighting for the common good, and that, willy-nilly, they must all come in, whether they approve of it or not; and the very same principle that justifies that action on the part of the State justifies the action of a trade union majority, in a time of industrial strife, in insisting on acquiescence by the minority.
  Coming to the third proposition, with which I do not wish to deal at any length, namely, the proposition that no man should be compelled to subscribe to the funds of a political party against his will, that, again, may be all right in the abstract, but this Bill is aimed at the Labour party only. The Labour party is not merely a political party; it is partly political and partly industrial. We all remember that the coal dispute of last year was fought out to a large extent, and I believe determined, on the Floor of this House, and, surely, when the Eight Hours Bill was being discussed, a Bill that was destined to have the most vital effects on the dispute that was going on outside, the miners of this country were entitled to be directly represented in this House. It was as essential that they should have their representatives

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  here as at the conferences where the matter was being discussed, and the Miners' Union were just as much entitled to use their political funds in sending their representatives here as in sending their representatives to discuss the wages problem in any other part of the country. I might go on and deal in the same way with the fourth proposition, regarding the Civil Service. The Government are laying it down now that when a man enters the Civil Service, he is to find at the door a statement, "Abandon citizenship all ye who enter here." The proposition is seriously submitted that a person cannot at the same time be loyal to his class and loyal to the State. If that proposition be sound, there are not many loyalists to the State on the other side of the House, because I do not know a single one of them who is not loyal to his class; and, if a rich man can be loyal to his class and at the same time loyal to the State, then I submit that the postmen and other civil servants of this country can be trusted as much by the Government of this country as any section represented on the other side, or sitting on the other side, of the House.
  I do not want to occupy time any further except to say that I believe this Bill will become an Act of Parliament, and that a great many things that have been said about the likelihood of this creating greater difficulties for the Government than exist at present are absolutely true. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that when the Bill is placed on the Statute Book and the workers are up against the new conditions that are created, they will find means of defeating the tyrannical legislation that is now before the House. In their attempt to find ways of evading a law which has no moral justification and therefore deserves no respect, as far as I am concerned and anyone for whom I can speak in this House, we will enable and we will assist them to find means of evading and defeating it by every resource in our power.
  Mr. HILTON YOUNG: This vigorous Debate has had many interesting contributions from eminent leaders of trade unions, with whom, perhaps, for the moment I might class the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, but it
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  appeared to me that, valuable though their contributions have been, they have all rather been deficient in the helpfulness that they might have had owing to an initial error of strategy. It used to be taught in all schools of strategy that the worst mistake that you can make is to develop your attack before you know the distribution of the enemy's forces, and that, it appears to me, is precisely what the leaders in this attack in the House have done; they have developed an attack upon the Bill before they knew what the Bill was, and, as it has turned out that the Bill is a different Bill from that which they expected, the attack is in the air. They are attacking the Bill as a Bill which is directed against the right to combine. Of course it is not so. In order to attack the right to combine, you would have to deal with the trade union legislation of 1906 and earlier. Some think that it ought and some think that it ought not to be dealt with. At any rate, it is not dealt with. Then they attack this as a Bill against the right to strike. They will really never succeed in convincing the commonsense of the country that Clause 1 is directed against the right to strike. Particularly is that so, after the free statements that have been made from the Treasury Bench as to the intention of the Clause and the willingness to accept Amendments better to express that intention if better words can be found. Finally, they attack this Bill as a Bill directed against the Labour party. I think we may say that it is not a Bill directed against the Labour party unless the Labour party are willing, to parody a familiar phrase, to write upon the front of their building, "Supported by involuntary contributions."
  This Debate has also bad many valuable contributions from distinguished members of the legal profession, who always bring so much to our Debates; and in particular from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). These eminent members of the profession have all criticised Clause 1 because it is vague. It may be so, but I think it is well that it should be so. The Clause deals with conditions which are new to our law, conditions which are new to our social structure. Under these circumstances it is actually of advantage that the terms

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  used should be such as can be understood by the general public. Lawyers, perhaps, are always a little too much inclined to be critical about popular wording and terms which are not terms of art in new Measures. I have no doubt that when Magna Charta was being drafted the lawyers thought it was very badly drafted. They said nobody could tell what a "trial" was, or a "peer." Nevertheless, the people have understood it, and valued it ever since. The people, I believe, when they understand this Bill, will value it on something like the same grounds as they value Magna Charta, as a defence of liberty.
  Let me proceed to deal with the arguments advanced from a particular point of view, in especial by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). It is an argument which must have appealed to some of those on these benches. It was, "Why not let well alone? Why bring in a Bill now?" For the first reason, if for no other, that this Debate has clearly exhibited the profound confusion and differences of opinion which exist as to this most fundamental element in our laws. The law-abiding citizen in this country desires nothing more than to know what the law is in order that he might obey it. Recent events have put him into the position of not knowing what his duty to the law is in a very important case, the case of another general strike. He is entitled to know without doubt what the law is in that case. It is the obvious and simple duty of the Government to give him assistance by telling him. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said, "How is this Bill going to help you to stop a general strike?" For this reason, that our people are a law-abiding people, and when they know that a general strike is illegal they will not embark on it.
  There are stronger and deeper reasons than that why this Bill is needed, even though it is good to let well alone. I must cover what is very important ground in a very summary manner. There are deeper reasons than that why you cannot refrain from action. We are told, "Do nothing in order that you may preserve peace and advance prosperity." Peace and prosperity can exist only upon a firm foundation of law and of liberty. The foundations of those have been
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  shaken, and they must be repaired before we can be assured of prosperity. There are certain rules which we know well, the keeping of which is essential to the very existence of the State. Indeed, nothing less than the existence of the State has been put in jeopardy by recent events. One rule is this, that authority shall not be exercised save with the consent of the people as a whole. In the events of last year, authority was exercised, by those who organised the general strike. It is in controversy over whom they desired to exercise authority, whether over the mineowners or the State. There is no controversy that they did desire to exercise authority. That authority was not based on the consent of the people as a whole. It was based only on the consent of a section of the people, the trade unionists. It is impossible to leave that state of affairs without a declaration of the law. Otherwise what would be the result? No other section of the community will sit down under the burden of having authority exercised over it by another section. If you leave things in that state people will take the law into their hands, and we shall drift directly on to the rocks of civil strike.
  There is another rule necessary for the existence of the State. It is that authority should be exercised only under form of law, because otherwise no man knows what his rights and duties are. To permit any other state of affairs is the straight way to extreme uncertainty in all the legal relations of life, and there is no relation of life that has not its legal aspect. It would ruin prosperity. Last year, in those direful events, authority was exercised, and not under form of law. People are now in a state of doubt and uncertainty about their legal rights and obligations, which they are entitled to have removed. The last rule necessary to the existence of a State which I would mention is this, that authority must be exercised only by the organs of the Constitution. That is because if you act otherwise, if you allow any other organs than those of the Constitution to exercise authority, you enfeeble the State. You begin to have two sources of sovereignty; you try to derive law from two sources. That leads to absolute insecurity of all rights and duties. In the events last year it was

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  sought to exercise such authority, not by an organ of the Constitution, but by the General Council of the Trade Unions. Thus another source of law erected its head in rivalry with the State. For the sake of the security of rights and duties, of life and property, the people are entitled to have such a state of affairs made impossible for the future.
  Such were the grave lesions inflicted on our social life last year. A section of the nation took the law into their own hands. It is impossible for the safety of the State to allow that state of affairs to continue or to be repeated. Why? We all know that even the best of citizens has a sense of self-restraint in obeying the law. If we have a wrong to put right or a right to establish we know that we exercise a certain self-restraint and sacrifice in leaving it to the law to do those things for us. The State can demand that sacrifice from the law-abiding citizen only if it demands it with absolute equality. If you allow any section to take the law into their hands, other sections will take the law into their hands, and thus you proceed straight to anarchy.
  That is as to the necessity of this Bill from the point of view of law. Let me say a word about it from the point of view of liberty. The common citizen, whose opinions I feel are perhaps represented by what I have said, is distinguished no doubt in the first place by a very great reverence for law, but in the second place by an equal affection for liberty. Why is this Bill necessary from the point of view of liberty? I think that on these benches we feel from time to time the motion of a prejudice against all legislation. We are inclined to favour the point of view, "Why legislate about it?" Legislation so often does more harm than good. The prejudice is largely due to the fact that much of the legislation to which we have been used of late is legislation that restricts liberty. On the other hand, a Bill that enlarges liberty is entitled to our hearty support. I believe that this Bill enlarges liberty. The strongest weapon in the armoury of the age-long enemies of liberty is the will to use the power over a man's livelihood to constrain his opinions. That throughout the ages has been the most formidable
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  weapon which the oppressor has used. In the earlier stages of the age-long fight for liberty the contest centred round the land. The land was necessary to a livelihood, and under the feudal system the power over the land was used to make a man's livelihood depend on his support of the accepted system. The first great victory won for liberty was when livelihood from the land was made independent of a man's opinions. The second great fight for liberty was fought over the religious questions. There was a time when a man's right to earn his livelihood was made to depend on his holding certain religious opinions. The final victory in that other fight came when the Test Acts were repealed and a man was allowed to enter any profession or to earn his livelihood in any way in the State independently of his religious opinions.
  8.0 p.m.
  Now in this latter end of the day we find another and even more dangerous attempt to make use of this time-honoured weapon to constrain a man's opinions. It is in the practice of the great organisations of industrial wage-earners. We find under the system of organised industry, with the immense power of the trade unions, this last reappearance of this favourite enemy of liberty, the desire to constrain a man's political opinions and to make his right to earn his livelihood in his trade depend on his opinion as regards political matters. Now in this latter end of the long contest we have to stand up against yet another attempt against liberty in its most sacred schrine. Believe me, it is that will to use power over a man's livelihood, to prevent his holding this opinion or that, that is the worst enemy of liberty. The right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said yesterday, should not the will of the majority prevail? Certainly that has to be granted. That is democracy. But when the power of the majority is used to say you shall not earn your living, you shall not get a livelihood, you and your wife and children shall starve unless you hold these opinions, that is where democracy and liberty end and persecution begins. I have no fear about the success of the task of defending this Bill against the many misrepresentations that have been

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  made, since it serves these two high ends—that of the fortification of the law, and that of the enlargement of liberty.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down gave the House an extremely interesting address on constitutional law. He dealt with the importance of liberty, of majority rule, and of the State being governed by public opinion. I think that that comes ill from his lips. The House ought to be reminded that at the last General Election he was returnd as a Liberal, and since that time he has shown such little regard for the opinion of the majority, that he has decided to go on representing them as a Conservative.
  Mr. HILTON YOUNG: If I may say so, that is a comic reference to my representative position, which is actually stronger than that of most Members. Since I crossed the Floor, my Liberal Association has formally and expressly rejected a proposal that I should resign my seat. My representative authority, therefore, has received a more recent refreshment than that of Members who received theirs at the General Election.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that his authority is not derived from any Liberal Association. That authority is derived from the many thousand electors who sent him here. There has been, in nearly every speech delivered from the other side, an evasion of the main issue which is before the House. The Attorney-General, in his speech presenting this Bill, enunciated four great principles, not one of which, as far as I have heard, has ever been controverted. The question before the House is not that of the four idealistic principles which the Attorney-General enunciated. The question before the House is: Is this Bill a good Bill or a bad Bill? The right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young) suggested that it clarified the law. My suggestion is that if the law were obscure before, it is 10 times more obscure now. I do not often indulge in a Latin quotation in this House, but there is an old Latin aphorism which runs "Obscurum per obscurius," which implies an attempt to explain a thing which is obscure by something which is 10 times more obscure. That
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  applies very aptly to this Bill, and, very shortly, I propose to explain why I consider that is so.
  Clause 1 is undoubtedly the most important Clause of the Bill, and, as an example of the extremely wide ground it covers, I am going to give two cases which, I believe, would be covered by the wording of this Bill, and I shall challenge the Attorney-General to dispute that such cases would be covered by this Bill. Supposing after the next General Election five Conservative Ministers went to a Conservative Prime Minister and said, "Unless you repeal this Bill, we will give up our job, we will stop working, we will not support the Government." Under the definition of a strike that would be a threat by those persons to give up work, and it would be outside any trade or industry, and would be an attempt to coerce the Government. I am perfectly well aware that is not the intention of the Government, but there are many similar cases that can be quoted to show that Clause 1 is extraordinarily worded, and could be interpreted by a Court of Law to cover any form of strike whatsoever. It is said that it would not cover a strike designed to secure an industrial object alone, but the day has long gone by when we can separate industrial and political objects. Questions such as minimum wage and hours of labour are questions which have been dealt with in the past, and which border on industrial and political questions. If the Government at any time happened to be considering enacting by legislation something which the employers were refusing to give in negotiation, and the men struck work to secure that thing, they would be trying to coerce the Government.
  A similar case which might arise in the future is this: Supposing a body of trade unionists in any particular industry decided to strike to ensure that no men over 65 years of age should be employed in that work. It might very well be a part of the Government's unemployment policy that everybody over 65 should retire from industry in order to make way for younger men, and thus solve, or assist to solve, our unemployment problem. If a Government at any time is considering any industrial question, and at the same time a body of men strike to make their employers give it by negotiation, that strike would be an illegal

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  strike under Clause 1 of this Bill. That is one of the points which has not been dealt with by the Attorney-General. I also want to ask whether it is intended to prevent certain types of trade unions from striking. There are certain trade unions which have their members in several industries. Is the weapon of the strike to be entirely withdrawn from them? Is the General Workers' Union never to be allowed to strike at all? Unions are not necessarily organised by trades, and you cannot segregate any particular trade. A strike of the transport industry or the agricultural industry would be a very deadly weapon directed against the State, but would not be illegal under this Bill. On the other hand, if the Attorney-General is quite prepared for any strike to take place as long as it is only sponsored by one union, what is the position of a union like the General Workers, which recruited its workers from every field of industry, but maintains the right to strike because they are all organised under one union?
  There is another case I want to put, and I put it in order to emphasise my argument that you cannot get industry going properly except on a basis of goodwill. The working men, the manual workers, can prevent the restoration to prosperity if they wish it without any resort to a general strike at all, and I am going to indicate one way by which it could be done. Supposing, instead of a general strike, the unions got together and said, "This weapon has been taken from us unjustly, as we think, but we have another weapon. We can inaugurate a system of general ca'canny, or working to rule, or absenteeism, or half or quartertime." By a policy such as that, each man, although attending his work, receiving secret or open instructions not to produce the goods, not to get on with the job, it would be possible, more slowly, perhaps, but with an equal deadly certainty, to complete the industrial paralysis of this nation without the protection of this Clause at all. The other part of the Sub-section which, in my view, tends to make the Bill obscure, is that which deals with action
  "designed or calculated to coerce the Government, or to intimidate the community or any substantial portion of the community."
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  It has been asked a hundred times, if once, what is a substantial portion of the community? Neither the Attorney-General, the Prime Minister nor the Secretary of State for War, nor any Government or back bench spokesman has attempted to tell us what is intended by that phrase. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Liberal party!"] The Liberal party is 3,000,000 of the community, and there are 40 of us in the House. Probably the Attorney-General would say 40 was a substantial portion of the community, if 40 millionaires, and not 40 working men and women. It is said that if action is calculated to coerce the Government or to intimidate any substantial portion of the community, it is illegal. The question arises—calculated by whom? Is it to be calculated only in the minds of the strikers, or calculated by the Government? The Attorney-General suggested that when he said, "If I appeal to the High Court for an injunction against a strike, all the world will know it is illegal." But that is not the authority under the Bill at all. The people who decide whether action undertaken by 10,000 men is calculated to coerce the Government or not, are the local Justices of the Peace. Perhaps two or three elderly, apoplectic country squires are going to have authority to send 10,000 men and their leaders to gaol, because they consider their action is calculated to coerce the Government or intimidate any substantial portion of the community. It is perfectly useless for an hon. Gentleman opposite to shake his head. If he does so, it shows that he does not understand the Bill. I say that a Court of Summary Jurisdiction can send 10,000 men to gaol if they consider the provisions of Clause 1 bring a strike within the terms of the Clause as being an illegal strike.
  I want to say one word more, and that is in regard to Clause 3. This is another case where I want the Attorney-General, if he will—I know my voice does not have very much effect upon him—but I hope he will do me the honour to reply to this. He stated as one of his great principles, that intimidation shall not be employed against a trade unionist who refuses to strike. There is intimidation which can be prevented, and intimidation which cannot be prevented. Already, under the 1913 Act, the Registrar of

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  Friendly Societies is empowered to make a binding order to prevent any man from suffering any disability or disqualification whatever by reason of refusing to pay the political levy. There is another sort of intimidation with which this Bill purports to deal. My suggestion is that the law is strong enough to deal with intimidation which can be stopped, and that intimidation which cannot be stopped will not be reached at all by this particular Clause. As an example I want to ask whether the Government brought a single case into the Courts during the last general strike of intimidation which failed owing to inadequacy of the law instead of inadequacy of evidence. I remember reading of a case in which 14 women were sent to gaol because they followed a blackleg from place to place—merely following. Surely you cannot go stronger than that. The Bill imposes penalties if a person attends at a place for the purpose of intimidating. There is a far more deadly form of intimidation which is the very opposite of attending, and that is going away. It is the weapon of the boycott, which is not touched by the Bill at all. If a milkman refuses to deliver milk to a man who has refused to strike for three months he does not come under this Clause. The most effective and deadly and cruel form of intimidation cannot be reached by the law, and the forms of intimidation that can be reached are covered by the existing law, and I see no reason for having any further enactment.
  The Bill may be summed up in this way. It aspires to do many things which it does not achieve and it achieves many very dangerous things to which it does not aspire at all. The last occasion on which an attempt was made to pass a repressive Act against trade unions was in 1800. The Combination Acts of that date addressed themselves to persons who were guilty of the preposterous offence of making an agreement to keep wages high or hours short For this terrible offence this Combination Act provided two months' imprisonment. I have no doubt the Lord Birkenheads of that day thought themselves very wise men. In the words of Lord Birkenhead the other day, they thought they had taken on a very noble quarrel, but within 24 years that Act of Parliament had been repealed, and the difference
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  between that Act of Parliament and this one, in my opinion, is that whereas that one was not repealed for 24 years, this one is likely to be repealed within something approaching 24 months. What is the locus standi of Lord Birkenhead and other Ministers who are proposing to carry the Bill through? Who are they to set themselves up as defenders of our Constitution? I am sure the public memory is not so short that it has forgotten the events of 1913, when right hon. Gentlemen who sit on that bench were the leaders of an attempt to defeat the Constitution. Lord Birkenhead himself was a member of the Ulster Volunteers. I notice that he became very eloquent about this Bill the other day. He said: "We are taking on a great quarrel. You can make your speeches, you can raise all your agitation, you can unfurl all your flags, but when you have done it all we shall still pass this Bill." What was he saying in 1913? "You can pass all your Bills and we will still unfurl our flag, the flag of rebellion." Only the other day the Minister of Transport was in Ulster and was making a speech. He, too, had been a member of the Ulster Volunteers. He did not regret what he had done then. He said if the same circumstances existed to-day he would do the same thing. In other words, when the Constitution suits right hon. Gentlemen on that bench they defend the Constitution. When it does not suit them they will not defend it. Therefore, I think we are entitled to look with suspicion on right hon. Gentlemen who set themselves up as defenders of the Constitution. I consider that this Bill makes the law 10 times more obscure than it is. It will certainly provoke animosity throughout industry, postponing indefinitely the recovery of our trade, which is our primary need. It does not fulfil what it intends to fulfil, and it achieves many dangerous objects which it is not intended to achieve, and I am satisfied that the Government will find within a very short time that they have made one of the greatest mistakes a Government has ever made.
  Mr. SAKLATVALA: To borrow the phraseology of Lord Birkenhead, I look upon this Bill as a downright act of treason against Parliamentary Government, not against Parliamentary Government

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  as the Communists know it in its true nature, but against Parliamentary Government as is hypocritically claimed for it by the Tory party itself. I have said previously that it is legislation of this sort which completely destroys what we call the majesty of law. Every British citizen would be a contemptible creature if, after the passing of this Bill, he held any British law in respect or reverence and the Tory Government would find out their mistake if they believed in their old saying that the Labour movement is made up of abject poltroons who do not know how to fight and how to destroy the citadel of Toryism and Capitalism. They will soon find out their mistake. The Russian Revolution failed to arouse the British worker to its pitch. The present legislation is a repetition of the hideous mistakes of the Czar of Russia in 1906 and this is going to put the British worker on his mettle, and we shall be thankful to the present Government for it.
  Before I come to the important motive of the Government, I would offer a few observations on the minor details of the Bill. With regard to the political levy, there is provision for those who have a conscientious objection to refrain from paying it, but what the Government are now proposing is to prohibit a general collection from those who have no such conscientious objection, and if that principle is introduced in legislation, what would happen to joint collections of funds for joint purposes? Some sober people, or over-sober people, might say they do not use water and do not wish to pay the water rate. Or some might say they do not use the parks, or the lamp lights in the streets, or they do not require the police, and refuse to pay their portion of the tax, and the Government would say each one must individually agree and fill up a form and say: "I want to use the police or the street lamps or the waterworks or the parks." The whole thing is ridiculous. The Prime Minister is wickedly wasting the time of the House and misleading it in discussing the political levy. I challenge him, has he not already obtained a pledge from the Cabinet that the Bill will not be put on the Statute Book unless he is permitted to withdraw the political levy Clause as a last-moment peace-offering to the Labour party. He
  1852
  knows quite well that he is wasting the time of the House in making it discuss the political levy when there is a definite pledge that it is not going on the Statute Book, and we challenge the Tory party to show by their action that the political levy Clause is seriously intended to form part of the new law. It would be worth seeing if they put it in after the dissensions in their own ranks.
  Then we come to the question of lockouts. Of course, lock-outs will not be needed after this Bill. The working man is a serf. He is a slave. He is not going to propose terms. He is going to be dictated to. He cannot strike; he cannot defend himself; he cannot take any counter-action in his own defence. So the Bill itself is devised as a perpetual lock-out in the hands of the master class, and a declaration of a lock-out after such legislation as this being passed would be useless. With regard to the civil servant, the Bill suggests that the ordinary employé of the ordinary industrial master is in more cases than one doing work of public service, something without which the State would not exist and the community's life would not be maintained. The Government, in this Bill, are not making much difference between the industrial worker's work and the civil servant's service. Both are, and rightly so, essential services required by the community for the maintenance of the State, yet, while they admit that the industrial worker has the right to trade unionism and to keep up his organisation, the civil servant, who is no more important to the State or community than the industrial worker, is to be deprived of that right and is to be put in a still lower state. With regard to persecutions, and to the ridicule that might be cast upon a man, I must tell the Government that if ever they put this Bill into operation and a series of actions are brought into the Courts of law on the ground that this man said that, and that man said this, and so on, they would not in reality be punishing those who dared to pour contempt and ridicule upon one another, but would be causing the whole world to pour contempt and ridicule upon Great Britain. What a sight it would be for the nations of the world!—men and women going up to the magistrates and saying, "He made faces at me," "He did not speak to

  1853
  me," "He walked out of the assembly." What nonsense to come from the Tory party! We heard last Monday morning of a Minister of the present Government going to Hyde Park last Sunday. We saw a report in the "Daily Mirror"—the patriotic organ—that when the National Anthem was sung some people did not like to join in. Some did not remove their hats, but their neighbours promptly forced them to remove them. Could those people be put into prison?
  I do not know how far the Members opposite were guilty, but after some visionary event in my own life, I read in the newspapers that the Tory Members walked out of the House when the Member for Battersea rose to speak. Were they all to be clapped into gaol? [An HON. MEMBER: "They ought to be!"] The Whole point is so ridiculous, childish and nonsensical that the man who framed such a law ought to be turned out and his name scratched off as a lawyer of any merit. It is quite idle to talk about the last general strike as not being a general strike in its proper sense. Of course, technically, it was not a general strike for the simple reason that it did not develop fully into a general strike. But there is no doubt that those who wanted it intended that it should be a full fledged general strike. Has anybody the right to deprive the working class of this or any country of the right to a general strike? If a strike within one industry is legal, how, by its mere extension through the simultaneous action of various trade unions, can it be declared illegal? There is a lot of loose talk on all sides in this House about the last general strike being illegal. No one has explained whether it was ever contested at law, that the last general strike, apart from any technical faults of not giving proper notices or so, was in its nature illegal. What is a strike?
  The intention of a strike by a section of the working class is to draw the attention of the public to their grievances; to say to the public, who are indifferent to their grievances, and who yet entrust production and distribution of necessities of life to private individuals, "You are not bringing proper pressure upon the State to remedy our grievances." Supposing the boot-makers go on strike. The whole nation
  1854
  wants boots and the community would be affected. What if the butchers or the dairymen go on strike? In every industrial strike, you are bound to affect a large section of the community. They have a right to do so. If the bakers declare a strike, it is legal. If the butchers declare a strike it is legal. If the market-porters declare a strike, it is legal. If the dairymen declare a strike, it is legal. But if all serve their notices and declare a strike simultaneously, it would become a general strike. Suppose you decided upon a simultaneous action similar to the two-minutes' silence on Armistice Day. Is the Attorney-General going to punish one of the groups concerned? If the railway workers, the miners, the engineers, the seafarers and the textile workers come forward at the same time and handed in their notices demanding wages of £7 or £10 for a five-days' week, and then withdrew their labour, which of the unions is going to be guilty of being the general striker, and which are the unions which are not guilty? The Solicitor-General himself, if he found himself out of office to-morrow and was paid sufficient money, would be the first person to teach the trade unions how to dodge this farcical law and how to devise the general strike. In fact, many hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite, if they were paid sufficient fees, would willingly give advice to the trade unions how to put themselves outside the scope of the law when a strike was going to be declared. The whole law is farcical.
  The Prime Minister confessed yesterday that it was the event of last year that compelled him to change his mind, but he did not explain which event. Was it the event of our Foreign Secretary meeting his great Italian Master on a, river yacht for secret conversations? Was it the event of the Foreign Secretary's son being introduced as an honorary member of the Italian Fascisti? Which event of last year has made this Bill possible? And then, he tells us, he was against it once upon a time because he would not fire the first shot. That explains why the Prime Minister, by a conspiracy with the master class, put up the coalowners to give a wanton notice to the miners and thus fire the first shot. In such a Debate as this it does not behove one to take up much

  1855
  time. I have only got to say this to the Government, that we in the Communist movement do not believe in relief being sought by the working classes by a mere promise that the Bill shall be repealed, though we are heart and soul with those who desire that it shall be repealed, and we will work towards that end. I put it to the Government that the last effort at a general strike did not fructify owing to many difficulties within the Labour movement. This Bill challenges the Labour movement of Great Britain to strike, and to work continuously for small strikes and large strikes until they have reached the point of a general strike. The right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) said that the Communists and the Conservatives welcome this Bill. We do not welcome it. We say to the apostles of the inevitability of gradualness, that there is no such thing as gradual progress for the working classes. We say that the working classes cannot get their rights so long as the capitalist class is in power. The capitalist class believes in giving knock-out blows of the most unscrupulous character every time they can find the chance, and the policy of the working classes must be to give them open, deliberate, knock-out blows, one after the other. We will co-operate with our friends in the Labour movement and we will work heart and soul with them in this matter of repealing this Act, but we, remind them of the existence of the House of Lords, and also of the fact that we have no guarantee that the present Government will not even alter the Parliament Act and strengthen the position of the House of Lords." The delusion of the leaders in the movement has always been, as far as I understand it, that the proletariat are too slow to respond to any extreme measures. This Bill will enlighten the proletariat and quicken them up, and then you will see the unity between the Communists and the trade unionists, and you will see that even the process of the repeal of this Act will be achieved through industrial direct action, so long as the House of Lords exists. You may take our word for it that settled government in this country and so-called law and order by a gang of conspirators and forgers is impossible. We challenge you to go ahead
  1856
  with this Measure, and you will see where you fall down.
  Mr. ROY BIRD: I think that most hon. Members, at any rate, those sitting on these benches, will agree that the speech just delivered is one of the strongest arguments that could be put forward for this Bill. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) made a complaint that too many lawyers had taken part in this Debate, and he said that he was going to address the House as a man of commonsense. He thereupon proceeded to deal with his right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), and dealt with what that right hon. Gentleman said yesterday as to what would happen if the Labour party came into power. It has been threatened from many quarters on the Opposition Benches that the Labour party will, at the first opportunity, put an end to this legislation. There is some difference of opinion between the Labour Front Bench and the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley exactly as to what the effect would be if this legislation were taken off the Statute Book by a Labour Government. We have to bear in mind that certain parts of this Bill are only declaratory. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley referred to what the right hon. Member for Spen Valley had said as to what might be done at the next election by the Labour party, believing in intimidation and general strikes, and said that would not be the effect of repealing the proposed Act. I intervened and said that it would be by inference. I interjected that remark, which caused some merriment on the other side. It seemed to me a very pertinent remark, made not by a learned Member of this House but by one speaking with commonsense or, shall I say, as a man in the street. If when this Bill becomes a Statute you take it off the Statute Book, the man in the street will say: "They have repealed that Act therefore, intimidation is lawful and general strikes are lawful." That is the reason why I interjected the remark and said that, inferentially, the man in the street would declare that intimidation and general strikes were lawful.
  The hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Bromley) yesterday gave the House some figures, I think from the "Bankers'

  1857
  Magazine," and attempted to draw a conclusion from those figures. He said that at the beginning of January certain Stock Exchange securities stood at a certain figure, and at the end of December they had gone up, and therefore the capitalists had profited by the general strike. That is a wrong conclusion to draw. The reason why investments went up at the end of last year was because the general strike was a thing of the past. It was a bogey that had been laid. Industry had been suffering for years from the threat of a general strike. The general strike came last May, and the general sense of the community defeated the general strike ignominiously. After the general strike was over, the community trusted the Conservative party to say that never again would the leaders of the Labour party, the leaders of trade unionism, be in a position to call another general strike. They bore in mind the speech of the Prime Minister in 1925. They bore in mind a certain portion of that speech, which was quoted by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley for quite another purpose, and also quoted by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, who attempted to use it to-day in defence of himself, because he has put expediency before honesty. The Prime Minister, when he was referring to associations that had grown up, associations of employers and of workmen, pointed out that those associations might get, perhaps, into such a condition as to become a danger to the State. It was not because of that fear that he postponed legislation, but because he intended that speech, which he made in this House, as a warning to the Socialist party and as a warning to the trade unionists to put their own house in order. The warning was not accepted; the gesture was not accepted; the general strike was the answer, and the general strike, as far as I know, has never been officially repudiated either by the Labour party or by the trade unions.
  We have heard during this Debate several references to the fact that the general strike was not illegal and that it may happen again, as I understood the last speaker to say. I think he hopes that it will happen again. A great many people are uncertain, according to the late Solicitor-General, as to whether a general strike is legal now or not.
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  Opinion on this side is that it is illegal. So that there can be no doubt this Bill is brought in with a declaration so as not to leave the question in the air, so that it is understood by every body in the country that a general strike is illegal. I think I shall have the assent of the House when I say that everybody in the community and in this House welcomes this Bill, but for different reasons. It is welcomed by hon. Members on this side of the House because it is a redemption of pledges given; a measure of freedom to trade unionists, a measure of freedom for workmen who are not members of trade unions, and it is not an attack on trade unions. It is a charter of freedom. It is welcomed by hon. Members opposite because it gives them a chance of going round the country, as they have started to do, in a campaign of gross misrepresentation, saying that it is an attack on trade unions, which they repeat at the corner of the street and wherever they go.
  I think some of them have a habit of under-estimating the intelligence of their listeners, not only in this House but in the country. The country wants to know the answer to very definite questions, and it is no good burking the point that hon. Members opposite will be asked, whether they believe in a general strike, whether they believe that the Government of this country should be subordinate to the trade unions; whether they believe that there should be another general strike. These are simple questions to answer, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman who is going to wind up the Debate for the Opposition should answer them. There is another series of questions that the right hon. Gentleman should answer in connection with the Clauses dealing with intimidation. Does the Labour party advocate and believe in the kind of intimidation that took plane during the last general strike? Do they advocate the right to work, as well as the right to strike. These are some of the questions which the working men and women of this country want answered. Hon. Members opposite seem to muddle up trade unionists and trade union leaders. Trade unionists interests are very often different from trade union leaders.
  There are other questions which we should like answered on the political levy. We regard the Clauses in connection with the political levy as giving back to the

  1859
  working man a right that has been taken away from him. Under the Act of 1913 there is a theoretical freedom of political opinion. You can contract out, hut in practice that provision has proved to be a snare and a delusion. If a man contracts out, he finds himself in a very awkward position, and as a general rule you find that a man does not like to offend his fellow workers and therefore is prepared to subscribe to a party with whose political views he does not agree. Within my own knowledge there are many men in my own division who contribute to the political levy because they do not want to get into trouble with their fellow workers.
  Mr. SULLIVAN: On a point of Order. I want to ask the hon. Member to justify his statement.
  Mr. BIRD: It is a little surprising for one section of hon. Members opposite to say that it will make no difference at all to their political fund if this Clause is passed into law, whereas another section, notably the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) says that if it becomes law he personally would not be able to come to this House.
  Mr. MACKINDER: I did not say that.
  Mr. BIRD: I thought I had not misrepresented the hon. Member. I gathered from his remarks that it would be inconvenient—
  Mr. MACKINDER: What I said was that some hon. Members opposite would like to prevent us coming here.
  Mr. BIRD: I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Member, but the impression he conveyed was that he could not keep two homes on £400 a year.
  Mr. MACKINDER: That is right.
  Mr. BIRD: Therefore, by inference, he would have to get money from the trade union, and if he did not he would not be able to come here. If the answer is that they will not be affected by this Clause, what is the objection of hon. Members opposite? There can be no logical objection to this Clause, unless this levy is extorted from working men and women who do not give voluntarily, taken from them out of their hard earned wages, in order to support a policy in
  1860
  this House and at the corner of the street with which they do not agree.
  Mr. TINKER: One can well understand judging by the language of the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Roy Bird) why this Bill has been introduced. There are extreme men on the other side, who have pushed this Bill forward and I would advise the hon. Member, therefore, before he begins to criticise hon. Members on this side, to examine his own case, and he will understand why we take up the attitude we do. Let me say a word on the question of tolerance which was mentioned yesterday. During the Debate yesterday it was said that Mr. Thomas Ashton, a former Secretary of the Miners' Federation, was a Conservative, and that he was the best Secretary the Miners' Federation ever had. I quite agree. Mr. Ashton at the present time is the General secretary of the Lancashire and Cheshire Miners' Federation, respected by everyone, and, if he is a Conservative, it goes to show that we as trade unionists can show a fair amount of tolerance to men of other political views. The point I want to put to the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) is that instead of criticising us he should criticise the Prime Minister, who said on one occasion that the Miners' Federation was dominated by the extreme section, or what is called the minority movement. He could tell the Prime Minister then that 14 days after we were locked out last year, and after the Samuel Memorandum had been issued, realising that we had no chance of winning the battle then, I addressed a branch meeting of over 2,000 men and put this view before them. I said, "I do not think we have any chance of winning now, and we had better accept the Samuel Memorandum."
  In that branch there is not a minority movement man, not a single Communist, yet unanimously they rejected my proposal, because they felt the bitterness of the terms which were offered. I felt that myself, but I also realised that we could not win through, and advised them to take whatever they could get. I want the Prime Minister to realise that the minority movement has never had control of the Miners' Federation. We fought then because we considered we were not being fairly dealt with, and we were determined to make as good a fight as we could. The Prime Minister

  1861
  should carefully examine all the facts of the situation before he makes such statements. I want to turn to the Bill itself. I am glad to find a difference of opinion on the other side as regards the Bill. The Attorney-General, speaking on Monday, could not see any ambiguity in it, but later on, the right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) and the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott), cast some doubts as to what Clause 1 really meant, and they said that when we got to Committee stage representations would be made because they believed it really bars out sympathetic strikes. Anyone reading the Bill would consider that Clause 1 does bar out a sympathetic strike, but I am open to enlightenment on the matter.
  I cannot for the life of me see how it is possible, if a sympathetic strike takes place, for the men taking part in it to avoid being proceeded against under Clause 1; and that is why I am deter mined at all costs to fight every line and every word of that particular Clause. But I wish to refer to a point in connection with the Bill which affects me more than anything else. That is the provision of Clause 3. I have come very near to being taken in, because I spoke at several meetings against blacklegs. I was told on the Floor of this House by the Home Secretary that my conduct had brought me very near the hands of the law. All I did was to address a mass meeting and to point out the conduct of the blacklegs and to urge on the blacklegs that they were doing wrong. Then I passed on to something which cannot be avoided in this connection. I passed on to the word "contempt." How anyone dealing with blacklegs could leave out the word "contempt" passes my comprehension. In this Clause the word "contempt" appears and if anybody can satisfy a Court of Law that he has been brought into contempt, the man who has caused that stands to be prosecuted under the Bill The employers when they were anxious to get at the men sent their managers round telling the men that unless they came into work no places would be found for them when the stoppage was over. That was what went round the colliery villages. We then went to the men, and I want to say here and now that, so far from preventing any man
  1862
  from going to work if he wants to do so, I am not going to stop him at all, but, at the same time, I want to put my side of the case to the men. I spoke to the men and told them exactly what the position was.
  As far as this Bill is concerned we are not allowed to go near the houses of the men or to go near the collieries to state our case. The only other course is by mass meetings, and when we put the case before the men at mass meetings what other word can we use except "contempt" to the man who is blacklegging? When we bring in that word, then we are liable to prosecution. Take my own case, for instance, if I have to go to a court of law to defend my action. If I am asked did I mean contempt of the blackleg I would have to say, "Yes, I have contempt for the man who has broken away from his fellows." But if I say that, I am liable to be condemned. The method to which I have just referred is not the only method used by the employers. Let me deal with another point. Does the question of bribery enter into Clause 3? I have here two circulars issued by colliery owners in Lancashire. First they put up at the pithead the terms and the pay on which the men could resume work. The hours, of course, were fixed after they had got the Government to back them up. That did not take on, and they issued statements like this—and I will give the name of the firm, if required:
  "These collieries will be open for work on Wednesday morning, the 13th October, at 6 a.m., on the terms already posted at the colliery and circulated.
  We are prepared to pay a cash bonus of 10s. to all men working on that day.
  A similar cash bonus will be given to all those working on Thursday, the 14th.
  Thereafter until 2 o'clock on Tuesday, the 26th October, a bonus of 3s. per day will be paid.
  One-half the above sums will be paid to all women and boys under 16 working on these days."
  Was not that bribing the men? These are not ordinary terms. This was a bribe to bring these men away from their fellows. Here is another one:
  "Notice is hereby given that work can be found at once for a limited number of workmen on the terms already offered.
  Later application will be dealt with as work becomes available.
  To all persons who start work this week a free grant of £1 will be paid in four instalments

  1863
  over the first six days and, in addition, a gift of one hundredweight on coal will be made immediately.
  Consideration will also be given to deferring payment of arrears of house rent."
  9.0 p.m.
  That is bribery pure and simple. We have no chance of resisting that except by means of mass meetings, and when we put our case before the men, we may be charged under this Clause with intimidation and with bringing men into contempt. The Home Secretary during the last lock-out almost gloated over the fact that he had got powers to deal with anything and that he was going to use them. I admit that he had full powers; yet the Government are not satisfied with that, and they are introducing this Bill to prevent the leaders of the working men from putting the facts of the case before the working men. I am sorry, indeed, that at a time like the present this Bill should have been brought forward. But the two points which I have mentioned in regard to Clause 1 and Clause 2 are not the main purposes of this Bill in my opinion. The Clause dealing with the political levy is what is behind all this Bill.
  So long as we do not put forward our just claims, so long are we regarded by hon. Members opposite as being all right, but when we come forward determined to assert our rights and when hon. Members opposite realise that we are going to come into power, then they make up their minds that some action must be taken to try to prevent that. The only possible way in which it can be done, according to hon. Members opposite, is by stopping the political levy. Hon. Members opposite have said that that is why we are so upset over this Bill. I am not upset at this attempt to stop the political levy. You cannot stop the onward march of Labour and Socialism, do what you may. By efforts of this kind you are only causing us to fight harder than ever we did in our lives. I am in the position of a back bencher, but I say to our leaders that not only will they have to carry out the mandate which has been given to them to remove this Bill from the Statute Book when they get the opportunity, but they will also have to remove from the Statute Book the Eight Hours Act and replace it not by a Seven Hours Act, but by a Six Hours Act. I am not saying
  1864
  that in a spirit of bragging. I firmly believe that, as a result of the attitude of the Conservative party in the present instance, both the present Measure and the Eight Hours Act will be wiped out of the way as soon as ever we get back to power.
  Mr. LUKE THOMPSON: I am reminded at this late hour that the sands of time for this Debate are swiftly passing, and it would be quite inappropriate for me to occupy much time. I shall, therefore, confine what I have to say more particularly to words of assurance and of support to the Government for the policy that they have inaugurated in the Bill that is now before the House. In so doing, I would like to remind myself and the House that, at the initiation of the Debate, the Attorney-General laid down certain principles for the guidance of this House, and after listening very carefully to the major portion of the Debate that has been proceeding, and after having shorn it of all its excrescences and irrelevancies and of all its obstructions, I have been more than confirmed in thinking that the case made out by the right hon. and learned Gentleman at the very outset has been overwhelmingly sustained throughout the Debate. I would like to say, further, that I think the Government have interpreted quite accurately the mind and the spirit, not only of the electorate in general regarding this matter, but of the average working man and trade unionist as well. I say that with considerable confidence for this reason, that I have been permitted during a long experience to have a considerable knowledge of the working class constituency which I have the high honour to represent, and I believe that the average working man welcomes wholeheartedly the Bill now before the House.
  A great deal has been said about every part of this Bill, and the last speaker and other speakers have made a great deal of the political levy. It is not so much a question of whether a man contracts in or contracts out, but the question in the mind of the worker is whether it is right for him to subscribe to a political levy at all. As a matter of fact, some of the advanced thought, even of the trade unionists, goes as far as that, and their line of argument is quite reasonable and fair and will, I think, appeal to every part of the House. It is that in no other walk

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  of life are they held under restrictions such as they are under the political levy. That is the statement made. I care not whether you take it in their religious associations or their social associations, they have a perfect right to contribute to anything that they choose, and yet, apparently, they have not that right in regard to one thing, and that is the trade union, which is vital to their welfare. I think the hon. Members opposite will admit that a man who refuses to subscribe to his trade union or to become a trade unionist has very little opportunity of maintaining his work in that particular branch.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: You cannot prove that.
  Mr. THOMPSON: I have specific instances.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: Is it true of Sunderland?
  Mr. THOMPSON: It is true in Sunderland and everywhere that men are brought into that position. They say that if it is a fact that they can exercise their individual liberty in every other direction, then they claim the absolute right to do so as regards political organisations. So far as contracting in or out is concerned, they wish to have perfect liberty. I want to say that I have not the least shadow of a doubt that the policy of the Government, as enunciated in this Bill, is correct and is acceptable to the general public, and I wish to assure the Government, both personally and on behalf of those whom I represent, of undivided support for this Bill.
  Mr. THOMAS: If any evidence were needed to prove how difficult would be the task of Members on that side of the House to justify the votes that they will shortly give, it is to be found in the speech of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. L. Thompson), which we have just heard. Here is a Member, speaking probably quite sincerely, saying what he believes, or rather what he has been told.
  Mr. THOMPSON: No, what he believes.
  Mr. THOMAS: Then, if it is not what he has been told, it is what he knows to be a fact—one of the two things—and he actually gets up and makes the statement to the House to-night, within
  1866
  two hours of the division, that within his knowledge any man who does not subscribe to the political levy is not secure in his employment. That is his statement. I had hoped it was something that had been told him, but he denied that, and said, "No, it is not what I have been told, it is what I know for a fact." He is the hon. Member for Sunderland. In my own union last year there were 55,000 members who claimed and received exemption, and there was not a complaint from the Registrar, not a complaint from any of those members, and a number of them are working in Sunderland.
  Mr. THOMPSON: My argument was this, that the worker claimed the right in his industrial relations to say whether he wished to contribute or not. I further said this, that if he refused to become a trade union member, he lost his chance of work.
  Mr. THOMAS: There are enough fair-minded Members on that side who heard the statement of the hon. Member, and the OFFICIAL REPORT will show to-morrow that he said nothing of the kind.
  Mr. THOMPSON: You will see.
  Mr. THOMAS: The OFFICIAL REPORT Will show. The statement made was that if a man refused to pay his political levy he was not secure in his employment. That was the statement made. If the hon. Member believes that, I assure him it is not true. The Registrar's return will show with regard to the shipwrights in his own constituency that more are exempted than pay the levy; and the boilermakers are in precisely the same position. Then what becomes of the action of any member who goes into the lobby in the belief that he is voting for something to prevent a man having to pay for something he does not believe in?
  I want to put this question to the House. Suppose that instead of this party warfare and political passion the question we were to vote upon at 11 o'clock was put in this way: the country was badly hit during the War; there is a heavy debt and heavy taxation and in many ways we are handicapped; we are anxious to remedy the difficult economic and financial situation of the country, how can we give a vote that will express

  1867
  in words what is most likely to help towards this recovery? In that case I beg to say the overwhelming mass of this House would vote for "Better industrial relations; the possibility of eliminating as far as we can industrial strife and unrest." That would be the verdict given by every Member of the House. As one who has made some contribution towards that effort—which will not be denied by the responsible employers in my own industry—I say deliberately, with all the knowledge and experience I possess, that I know of nothing that has happened, not even the events of last year, which will do more to destroy any hope of industrial peace, or is so calculated to engender had feeling, or that so drives moderate and extreme men together, than this Bill.
  Why is there so much bitterness? There is bitterness because this Bill is not only inconsistent with but is a direct contradiction of everything the Prime Minister has said. We have heard a lot about the general strike, and my views have been quoted. I withdraw nothing I have said about the general strike. I believe to-day that it is not only a bad method but that it is a useless method and cannot succeed. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, that is my view but if you think you will stop a general strike by this Bill it only shows how ignorant you are. There have been speeches about last year's events. The Prime Minister is here, and he can tell the House—and there is a shorthand note to prove it—that nothing that has been said in condemnation of a general strike, nothing that even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has said about the right of the community, was said more forcibly than I said it in the Prime Minister's presence a few hours before the general strike started. [Hon MEMBERS: "Why did you call it?"] Are you not getting somewhat mixed as to what is a general strike? Do not forget that when this Bill is passed, employers of labour and labour leaders have got to repair any mischief that this House may do, and these laughs and sneers will not keep the wheels of industry going unless a fair chance is given to those responsible and decent people who may not laugh but who all play their part and are the people who can control and influence
  1868
  and are followed by not a handful of men but by hundreds of thousands of men. I come back to the question of why there is so much feeling. The day the strike was called off, the Prime Minister made this speech in the House:
  "The peace that I believe has come, the victory that has been won, is a victory of the common sense not of any one part of the country but the common sense of the best part of the whole of the United Kingdom. … We should resume our work in a spirit of co-operation, putting behind us all malice and all vindictiveness."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1926; col. 878, Vol. 195.]
  Looking ahead! Putting behind us all malice and vindictiveness! And here is a Bill that says people can go to the Law Courts and claim damages for the events of last year. That speech was applauded by all sections of the House, and it was accepted as giving effect to a broadcast speech the Prime Minister had made—he will remember it, a speech that was made after a discussion with the Labour leaders. The House does not know it, but the broadcast speech of the Prime Minister which said what I have quoted now, which asked the country to forget the events, was made after a joint discussion with the labour leaders. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] The Leader of the Opposition, on the day the House rose, said to the Prime Minister, "Give us a message." We had their message, that now these events were over there was no intention of being vindictive but of working together. This is what the Prime Minister said:
  "The Leader of the Opposition devoted a portion of his speech to showing that he hoped there would be no attack on trade unions as such. I cannot imagine that there will be such an attack. I should not countenance it. … At a time like this there are some who like fishing in troubled waters."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th May, 1926; col. 1050, Vol. 195.]
  He added, "Let us have nothing to do with them." There you have an illustration in practice of the Prime Minister's speech, namely, Let us forget the past; let us co-operate together; let us forget all the events. Some Members on the other side have expressed surprise at the feeling aroused, and I observe that the Press in the country is drawing attention to the rowdyism and scenes in the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am trying to locate some of those Members who were saying "Hear, hear!" They happen to be very new parliamentarians.

  1869
  They forget or do not know that when the Irish Home Rule Bill was introduced a present Under-Secretary threw a book at the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and when they organised an attempt to howl Lord Oxford down, Lord Balfour said:
  "Please remember there is a limit to human endurance."
  If people's passions can be aroused over a controversy of that kind, are not we to be on this side, who remember that the privileges we enjoyed which you are now trying to take away from us mean the home life, the happiness and the comfort of millions of men, women and children? That is why there is strong feeling, that is why I feel it. I want to make no excuse about Rights or Lefts or Moderates or others. I take my stand on all my public work, on all my trade union efforts and on the great organisation I represent, and I say there is no man on these benches or outside who more bitterly resents this Bill and will fight it than I myself.
  Please keep in mind that this is the expression not only of myself and my colleagues here but the feeling of millions of decent workers. We resent it because we believe it is a mean and miserable attempt to injure your opponents. We resent it because we believe it is an attempt by a minority Government, who got in by a fraud of a letter, to use their majority to try to cripple the only bargaining power of the workers. We resent it because of the miserable humbug of Members who get up and say they are voting for this because they believe they are the friends of liberty and freedom. It would at least be decent to say that you know you are doing and that you want to curtail the liberties of these men. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] We resent it and we will fight it because the Bill shows a class bias which destroys any confidence in democratic government.
  Mr. WALLHEAD: It is a British form of the Italian Fascism.
  Mr. THOMAS: In the first place, it shows a class bias in attempting to inflict upon one section of the community a penalty not applicable to the other side. The Attorney-General said that the Bill was carefully drawn and that the Clause dealing with the workers was taken out of the Munitions of War Act. So impartial and so anxious to do the right
  1870
  thing are the Government that they took one Section out of the Munitions of War Act that applied to the workers and left out the Section that applies to the employers. The excuse is that, after all, there is no intimidation among the employers. There is a Member who sits behind me and I will give his case of intimidation. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Spencer?"] I will deal with Spencer. Incidentally apart from the way he was dealt with by one of my hon. Friends, to whom I wish Members had been here in equally large numbers to listen, he appears to me to be the one person who would benefit under this Bill. I will deal with cases of victimisation.
  There is a Member sitting behind me whose daughter, at considerable expense, received a good education. She was a candidate for a position in a big insurance office. There was a large number of applicants and she was one of 12 in the final selection. She was ultimately appointed and started work, having gone through a test and having come out most successfully. She started work and then it became known that her name was Henderson, and a letter came to say she must give the name of her father and his occupation. She put down "Miners' leader," and a private letter came from the firm after she had been there a fortnight, that she was to be dismissed and no reason to be given. That is not 10 years ago; it is less than a few weeks ago. [HON MEMBERS: "What is the name of the firm?"] I do not want to develop it ton much, because there happens to be a Member of the Government who is a director of the firm. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I am not one of those who would attempt to indict all employers on one case, but I am going to give other cases to show that, when you talk about the intimidation of a strike, you all know perfectly well that there are hundreds of ways and means in which the worker can be intimidated. My hon. Friend the Member for South Leeds (Mr. Charleton) was an engine driver on the Midland Railway and he struck work in 1911 with his colleagues. Afterwards we held an inquiry about victimisation, and the present Judge Atkins was appointed arbitrator.
  I conducted the case for the men, and when we happened to have a private examination of the company's books, we

  1871
  suddenly found a number of red-ink marks alongside a number of men. We probed the matter out, and it was actually revealed that this was the company's method of marking those who took part in the strike. [An HON. MEMBER: "All the agitators!"] I cannot improve upon that; that is exactly our case. But there was no lock-out. Does the House forget the case last year of an engineering firm, where there was a dispute in which the Amalgamated Engineering Union themselves took no part. It was a strike among the men in one small factory, and the engineering employers gave an intimation that, unless the strike was settled, there would be a lock-out in the whole of the industry. Yet we are told that there is no need, in fact it would be inept and useless, to deal with the employers in this Bill.
  Let me give a much better illustration of intimidation. Does the House forget the case which happened in Cardiff a few years ago where the bakers were charging 5d. per loaf? One firm decided that they would be making sufficient profit by charging 4½d., and they gave notice to their customers that on and after a given date 4½d. would be charged. The next day they got a letter informing them that if they continued to sell at 4½. per loaf, no more flour would be supplied to them. I would like to ask, is that coercing the Government or the community? Why is it that nothing is said about this matter and that no attempt to deal with that class of case is made in this Bill?
  Let me deal for a moment with the idea that the trade union movement is simply running riot in controlling the community. The first railway strike that took place was in 1911, and then there were 100,000 railwaymen getting less than £1 per week. At that time the railwaymen did not strike for 1s. a week, and in 1911 they struck, not for an increase in wages but for the right of the general managers recognising the union. It is well known that one of them said—I can give his name if necessary:
  "The rails would rot before he gave way.''
  Some hon. Members will recollect that on the Friday morning that strike took place, there were difficulties in Morocco between the French and the Germans. We are talking about the interests of the
  1872
  country, and on that day an ultimatum came from Germany. At 5 o'clock in the morning in the Board of Trade yard in Whitehall the President of the Board asked me to see him privately. He told me that a very serious situation had arisen, and that the troops were mobilised. He said the Germans had sent an ultimatum, that the situation was very serious, and he asked me if I could do something in the interests of the country in regard to the strike. I said, "Do I understand that the interests of the country are so unimportant to the railway directors that they would even imperil the country rather than meet the trade union officials?" I then told the President that he had better go and tell the directors what he had told me.
  Would the House believe that it took six hours to persuade those railway managers even to meet us, and they actually put in their document that, in view of the great interests of the country, they had agreed to do this. These are the people who talk about us being anxious and feeling strongly about the Government proposing to take away the only bargaining power we possess. I know that all these things have to be determined by the magistrates and the Judges. You wonder why we are rather sceptical about magistrates and Judges. I suppose hon. Members are aware that there are 9,600 acting justices in this country, and only 719 of them are Labour men. That at least indicates that the bias in these cases will not be on our side. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because you know perfectly well that in industrial disputes of this kind there is and must of necessity be bias.
  I will give a more concrete reason as to why we are suspicious of Judges and Magistrates. You are reversing to-day, by this Bill, the agreed Measure of 1913. That Measure was introduced as a result of what is called the Osborne Judgment. Osborne was a member of my union. Osborne was financed by members of that Government. [interruption.] Let us see what happened. When this rule was drafted, there was a body of railwaymen constituting the executive committee—drivers, guards, shunters, signalmen, and so on, and they wanted to keep within the law. They wanted to do the right thing, and they instructed me to get the best counsel I could to draft the rule for them. At that time there was a very

  1873
  distinguished counsel named Sir Robert Reid, who ultimately became Lord Loreburn. I wrote to Sir Robert Reid and said, "Here is our rule-book; will you draft a rule covering the political objects?" He replied, "Certainly I will—at the usual trade union rate." Then, in order to make doubly sure, we said, "Well, now, Sir Robert Reid is a distinguished Liberal lawyer. Who is there on the other side that we could have?" We looked round, and Sir Edward Clarke at that moment was a very distinguished man, and we said to him, "Will you confer with Sir Robert Reid and give us a joint opinion?" The same fee was paid, they agreed, and they issued the rule. We put it in the rule-book just as they made it, without alteration of any sort or kind. In the interval, Sir Robert Reid had become Lord Loreburn, and Lord Chancellor. The case went to the House of Lords, and the House of Lords said that what Sir Robert Reid had given to us was bad law, and we had to pay. And then you wonder why we are not breaking our necks to accept this Bill as defining the law for Magistrates and Judges!
  A strike is to be legal unless it coerces the Government. Let us see how that works out. It is curious that my union always gets landed in this legal business. We had a case determined in the House of Lords within this last month. It was taken to the House of Lords in order to get a judgment as to the position of a look-out man on a railway. Last year, 57 men were killed, in one grade alone, on the permanent way, and, whatever our views as to wages and hours may be, we, as trade unionists, believe that the protection of human life stands paramount. The look-out man is supposed to be there to protect the railwaymen by warning them when trains are coming, and the ganger is held responsible. The Law Lords said that the ganger must have the responsibility, but we took this case. The ganger had appointed a look-out man, but his chief officer said, "No, a look-out man is not necessary"; and, therefore, he had to choose between protecting life and being regarded by his inspector as incompetent to look after his men. The result was that only last week I took a deputation to the Ministry of Transport to say that we wanted the railway regulations carried
  1874
  out by the railway companies. The only people who can alter it are the Government, by an Act of Parliament framed with the intention of protecting the lives both of passengers and of railwaymen. We failed to persuade them. The railwaymen say the railway companies cannot alter it; the only people who can alter it are the Government; and we have to coerce the Government and all get landed in gaol for trying to protect the lives of our own people. [Interruption.]
  It is said that this Bill does not interfere with existing rights, that the sympathetic strike is untouched. Let us see how that operates. The railwaymen in London are threatened with a reduction in wages. Suppose that negotiations fail, and they decide to strike on the tubes. The only people that are likely to influence their position would be those on the omnibuses and in the transport industry. Suppose the transport men say, "We believe that the railway men's case is a good case; we believe it is a just strike; we are coming out in support." Is that injuring a substantial portion of the community? [Interruption.] Some on that side say, "No," but, at all events, what will happen under this Bill will be that some magistrate will be asked to say, and of course we know in advance what the answer will be. I have no hesitation in saying that it is because we believe that this will cripple, that it will interfere with, our bargaining power, because we believe that there are numbers who want to cripple our bargaining power, that we resent, not only the way in which this Bill is introduced, not only the time at which it is introduced, but the complicated details that are contained in the Bill. But, unfair and mean as we think all these things are, the most amazing thing is that the Prime Minister should justify Clause 4 on the events of last year. There was considerable coercion in 1922 on the then existing Government to interfere with the political rights of trade unions. The late Mr. Bonar Law was questioned, and this is the statement that he made, which took the form of a pledge in November, 1922. He said:
  "Members of trade unions should not be compelled to pay to the political funds of a party with which they do not agree. That seems reasonable. But we are not going to have any rash action about it. Before we dream of dealing with it, we shall consult both trade union leaders and employers;

  1875
  and, if we have to do anything, we shall certainly try to get an arrangement that seems fair to reasonable members of trade unions. I am not speaking for myself alone; I am speaking for our party."
  That was Mr. Bonar Law's conception of fair play; that was his view of his party at that moment. What incident last year in connection with the general strike altered that situation?
  I will tell you what my view is. My right hon. Friends the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden), the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes), and the Leader of the Opposition, myself, and many of my other colleagues here, have been quoted during the week in regard to what we said about the general strike; but the thing that none of you quoted, which we all said, was this: "The advice we give, the direction in which we want to mould opinion, is not for industrial upheavals and general strikes, but if reform is necessary, as it is, the right way is on the Floor of the House of Commons." That is the change since last year, and because we gave that advice, because we still believe in it, you are not only content in interfering with our industrial power, but you take the mean advantage of trying to cripple our political power. The last speaker said he believed that the men who did not pay to this political fund were not secure in their employment. I have already given 66,000 in my own union, and that figure is typical of many others. But the anxiety for purity, for freedom! The present Lord Younger when he was a Member of this House admitted one Friday afternoon that out of the funds, not of the workers, not on an open balance sheet, not on something that is sent to the Registrar, not anything which can be complained of so far as the public are concerned, but out of the Tory party funds, 4,000,000 were public—[HON. MEMBERS: "Voluntary contributions."] What is that, voluntary? This document I have in my hand was issued by the Tory party, millions of them. It says:
  "POLITICAL LEVIES. TO PAY OR NOT TO PAY.
  "If you are a Trade Unionist and not a Socialist, do not contribute to the political fund of your union."
  Then it sets out the reasons why a man should not do so. On the other side the document states:
  "You need not be bothered yourself. We will send you a book of forms. Each book
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  contains 50 forms, so that you and your friends can all sign together and send them in together. The agent of the Unionist Committee in your constituency will help you in this."
  No interference, no intimidation, purely disinterested! Yes. But let us read on and see how it squares with this Bill:
  "The Registrar has power to enforce his decision upon the union, and his protection should prove adequate."
  The Unionist Association considers that the Registrar's protection is adequate, but the Government says, "Oh, no." [HON. MEMBERS: "It says it should be adequate!"] The Government says it should be adequate! Then this Bill reflects on the Registrar that he does not do his duty. It is one of two things. The Registrar's Report says that there were only 13 complaints last year. The answer I get to that is that hon. Members think that the Registrar is biased. He is a public servant and cannot defend himself, and I do not believe in attacking people who cannot defend themselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the Judges?"] When all this is done, when all this is advertised, do hon. Members forget that this tremendous levy, this injustice that they can all get out of, amounts to 1s. a year and that that 1s. includes not only representation in this House but on all the local authorities in the country? Do you expect working men to lose time? When they are rendering public service, are they not entitled to be paid? It is because you know perfectly well that this levy goes to their payment that you are anxious not only to cripple their power here but in the local authorities as well.
  10.0 p.m.
  To sum up, we will oppose this Bill because it is partial and biased. Were I to view this question purely from the standpoint of party I would welcome the Bill, and my reason would be this: When the Taff Vale judgment was given against the railwaymen in 1904 and they paid £10,000 damages, they said, "Very well, we will try another method." At that time there were only two avowed Labour Members in this House. At the next election there were 29, and the vote then cast was 323,000. Next the Osborne judgment came. At the following election 191 Labour Members were returned to this House. At the last election there were 5,500,000 Labour voters in spite of

  1877
  the Zinovieff letter. Therefore, if I were viewing this question purely from the standpoint of party I would welcome the Bill. But I have said outside the House and I say here that there are some things greater than party—the interests of the community and peace in industry.
  As my last word I would say this: if there is any Member opposite who believes that this Bill will deter any man from striking he is living in a fool's paradise. Half a million railwaymen struck in 1911, not on the advice of any leader—illegally struck. Five thousand pensions were due within a month. Men in the last strike were actually due to retire within a week, after 45 years' service or more. Their whole pensions were thrown in. If they will risk their whole because they believe they are helping their fellows, it is not a miserable Act of Parliament that will prevent it. You are not only foolish; you are blind to all experience. Yes, but there is something else. How many of you who talk of the strikes of recent years realise that there is hardly an executive or responsible official who could have stopped any of those strikes? You hear of these strikes, and you read about them, but you have no knowledge of the number of strikes that have been stopped by the leaders. And by this Bill you will simply destroy that. I honestly believe that this House never took a step so disastrous to the future of this country. I have said outside, we will not fight if I can avoid it this Bill by industrial means. We will fight it by political means. But, having said that, you do not make agreements on paper that are worth anything. You do not get peace in industry by phrases. You have got to convince men that they are having a fair and square deal, and you cannot do that until you have created the atmosphere. Talking in this House, or voting in this House, is a different thing from facing week after week, as I have got to face, hundreds of thousands of men.
  Because I believe you are making a mistake; because I believe the country will suffer; because I believe, after all the warnings we have given you, you are tied to this Measure, you cannot retrieve it; because I believe that, I believe that the votes you will give you will regret. I believe the country will not thank you. No, and I only wish that
  1878
  you would have the courage to test it immediately. You have abused your position; you have abused your majority; you have struck a blow at those who desire peace in industry. There is no Right, no Left, no Middle. We stand four-square, every section of this party inside and outside the House and on the hustings, with all that it means. You cannot have this conflict and let it remain as it is. You may pass this Bill, but the agitation will go on. Because I believe you are rendering a disservice to the country; because I believe you are doing harm to the country; because I believe that the only person who will benefit is the unfortunate Member, with whom I sympathised yesterday—[An HON. MEMBER: "He does not need it!"]—he wanted it in times of stress from me when he did not know you. I regret more than I can say the circumstances in connection with his case, but that is no justification at all for him to forget his own long experience in the movement. His experience is mine—I say you cannot solve these problems by mere Acts of Parliament. You will carry the Second Reading. We will carry the fight to the country, and we will win.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): The end of this protracted Debate finds the House, undoubtedly, face to face with an issue of undeniable gravity. Nobody could complain of a close, even a critical, examination both of the principles upon which the Bill is founded and of the expression which those principles find in the Bill. We have heard some complaints of the failure on the part of the spokesman of the Government to expound the Bill sufficiently to the satisfaction of hon. Members opposite. I think it needed considerable courage on the part of those who made that complaint, when they remember the conditions under which the exposition took place. And, I am bound to say, that, on the whole, if any complaint of the failure to expound the Bill were justified, the greater part of the observations which the right hon. Gentleman has just addressed to the House appear to me to have very little to do with the principles contained in the Bill. If I am allowed a freedom which former speakers did not enjoy, I may possibly be able to elucidate—[An HON. MEMBER: "Do not be provocative!"]—I may be able

  1879
  to correct some of the mistakes which they would have been glad to make impossible. An hon. Member invites me not to be provocative. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) confessed to the House the temptation under which he labours of using provocative language.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I did not.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: He promised on this occasion to refrain from provocative language. While I listened to him, I hoped I might be in the House when he would yield to the temptation. At any rate, I am different from the right hon. Gentleman. I feel no temptation to be provocative, I hope, either on this or any other occasion. I should like to state what I believe to be the underlying principle of this Bill. The right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) stated that the question at issue was the interests of the community I am prepared to agree with him. I would state the principle that is involved in the Bill in this way: That no community can long survive that suffers a stronger power within its borders than itself, and the single question that emerges in all the Clauses of the Bill is whether are greater the interests of trade unions or the interests of the community. My right hon. Friend the Attorney-General propounded four statements which he submitted represented the different aspects which this issue wears in the Bill, and I hoped, when the Deputy Leader of the Opposition came to reply to him, that he was about to grapple with those propositions and to inform us of his assent or dissent from them. I was encouraged in that hope when I heard him refer to the legal questions as of merely secondary and trumpery importance. My hopes were short-lived. He was anxious to avoid a collision with anything half so solid as my right hon. Friend's propositions. On this occasion, at any rate, his lead has been faithfully followed by those who sit behind him. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser), who followed him, directed his attention chiefly to those secondary and trumpery legal points which are very intriguing to a lawyer but not generally interesting to the House. I shared almost entirely the views taken by the right
  1880
  hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley when he said he was not at all impressed with the solemn legal disquisition to which the House had been treated. This Bill raises questions which are far above the disputes in which lawyers ordinarily engage.
  But it may be said that if the principles were correctly stated by my right hon. Friend at any rate this Bill fails to include them. Let me repeat what the Prime Minister has already repeated. If there are ambiguities in the Bill, which is quite likely, ample opportunity will be afforded for their correction. No one who has grappled with the task of dealing with trade union legislation can be unaware of the difficulties with which he is faced. The complexity of the legislation, the tortured texts of the Acts of Parliament which are before us, the complication of the trade unions themselves render the task of any draughtsman almost impossible. But whatever opportunities can be given in Committee will be afforded by the Government. We invite from hon. Members that assistance that they may give in placing the Bill in a condition in which it represents the principles stated by my right hon. Friend. I have always been taught that the first task of a draughtsman is to be quite clear about the principles he is intending to express. It was for that reason that my right hon. Friend stated the principles it was intended to express. His first proposition was one concerning the illegality of the general strike and the impropriety of penalties for refusing to take part in it. I am still at a loss to know whether the Opposition agree to that principle or disagree. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), I think, destroyed the already tottering fabric of any argument based upon the statement that no general strike has ever been known by this country. The question as to the legality or illegality of the general strike is just one of those questions which I believe lawyers delight in raising, but when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) said that a declaration of its illegality will not prevent its recurrence and that only common sense will prevent it, surely on this occasion, at any rate, we may take care that law and common sense agree. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley said also earlier this

  1881
  afternoon that this question would be decided by the common sense of the people. We think that it will be of assistance to the common sense of the people, if they find it clearly stated in the law of the land that the general strike is to be illegal.
  Let me attempt to deal with the question that Clause 1—[An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Bill?"]—goes further than is necessary or does not go sufficiently far in declaring the illegality of the strike. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) propounded a case which admits really of a simple answer. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) followed him with a similar case. It is most desirable that there should be no misconception, at any rate, as to the legality or illegality of what I may call an industrial strike. The case propounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince was the case of miners, who, anxious to improve the conditions of labour in their county, decided that they must withhold their labuor from their employers. Is it possible that anybody is under the impression that a strike of that character is aimed at by Clause 1. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] I am not surprised at the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince perhaps being under that impression if he has been sitting at the feet of the hon. and learned Member for South East Leeds, whose ideas upon servitude and serfdom are familiar to the House, but I am really at a loss to know how it came about that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs came to be under that impression. Even, the most inexperienced student of the Bill could hardly have failed to discover that a strike in an industry to improve the conditions of the strikers is not within those matters which are prohibited by Clause 1 of the present Bill.
  An HON. MEMBER: What is an industry?
  Mr. WALLHEAD: May I put a question? The hon. and learned Gentleman has told us his opinion about a county strike, but how can the miners of a county get a reduction of hours if all the other counties are against them?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I cannot answer for the right hon. Gentleman with
  1882
  whose speech I was dealing, but I can take the case as he propounded it. If hon. Members will be good enough to refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince I think they will find that his question was in this form:
  "If the miners in a county for which this minimum wage is fixed endeavour to raise their wages in accordance with the vastly increased cost of living … the men at once become criminals because of this Measure.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd May, 1927; col. 1588, Vol. 205.]
  Therefore, I am dealing with the precise case put by the hon. Member's own leader. The answer to that case—and the answer is the same if the strike were not in a county but were a national one—is that if it is a strike in which the workers' sole object is to improve the conditions of labour—
  Mr. GREENALLAnd does not inconvenience anyone.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: If the hon. Member will allow me to finish my answer I think I shall make myself plain to him. The Bill is intended to express, and I believe does express, this, that workers whose sole object is to improve the conditions of labour in their own industry are free to strike, even if the natural and probable consequence of their action may be to bring pressure to bear upon the Government, or even to compel the community to submission.
  Mr. GREENALL: Read the Clause. You do not understand the Clause.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: Hon. Members opposite, surely, are prepared to listen to what I am stating as the intention and the effect of the Clause. If that is not the effect of the Clause, I can say here and now that the intention on the part of the Government is that it shall have that effect. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Let there be no mistake about that. I am confident that the Clause has that effect at the present time.
  Mr. PALING: May I ask a quesion. [Interruption.]
  Mr. SPEAKER: The Solicitor-General has given way for the hon. Member. He is entitled to put his point. [Interruption.] Order! Hon. Members are often too anxious to do my job for me. If they will allow me, I will conduct the business.

  1883
  The Solicitor-General has given way in order that a question may be asked, but in view of the time which now remains I hope there will not be many more questions.
  Mr. PALING: In view of what the Solicitor-General has said, does he mean that the words in the first Clause, which read as follows:
  ".… a strike designed or calculated to coerce the Government, or to intimidate the community or any substantial portion of the community, …
  will be taken out?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I gave way to the hon. Member in order that he might put a question, and I hope, considering the time at my disposal, that there will be no charge of discourtesy if I do not give way again. Those words will not be taken out of the Clause. Those words are intended to make it plain that a strike of a different character from that with which I have been dealing is illegal, but their inclusion in the Clause does not prevent a strike such as I have described from being perfectly legal, if it is a strike to improve the conditions in the industry in which the strikers are engaged.
  Mr. TAYLOR: That is not what the Clause says.
  Mr. WEBB: What about the sympathetic strike?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb) interrupts me to ask about the sympathetic strike. He is a Professor, and he must know that I cannot deal with two matters at once. I will come to the sympathetic strike if the right hon. Gentleman will curb his impatience. The sympathetic strike is, of course, a more difficult question, and the difficulty arises, not, I think, from any doubt as to the facts, whenever they come to be stated, if they ever are stated, before a proper court; but from the fact that the question is never stated outside a court with sufficient facts to enable it to be answered. But let me try. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston put a case, and his case was this. Supposing the miners stopped to improve or maintain conditions of labour in thei industry and the railway men struck in order to avoid carrying what he
  1884
  described as blackleg coal. The answer to it depends, of course, upon whether the intention of the railwaymen in their refusal to carry blackleg coal is to coerce the Government or intimidate the community. It is quite conceivable that the action of men refusing to carry a wagon or train of blackleg coal would be spontaneous, unpremeditated, and perhaps not last for long. That bears a very different colour from a strike long prepared for, long announced, universal, extending far beyond a mere refusal to carry a train of blackleg coal, and I think if hon. Members will read the words of the Clause, and decide the case by reference to the language of the Clause, they will find themselves more likely to reach a right conclusion than if they use language that is not to be found in the Bill.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham put a question as to the sympathetic strike. The word "sympathetic" is a word of no exact meaning. I do not know when the word first became current. Sympathy is a gracious thing, it is human in its appeal, and we get into the habit of thinking that a sympathetic strike must be excellent because sympathy is so admirable. If we confine ourselves to the words in the Bill, and decide the cases which will come before us by reference to the language in the Bill, instead of using these fantastic epithets like "sympathetic," we are likely to arrive at a safe conclusion. [Interruption.] I am glad to have the right hon. Gentleman's approval on this point. It is quite true that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have expressed suspicion as to the meaning of the Clause, but hon. Members opposite who have spoken have all been so suspicious of the intentions of the Government that they are hardly in a fit state of mind to pronounce on the language of the Clause. Hon. Members have asked what is the meaning of the phrase
  "to intimidate the community or a substantial portion of it."
  I rather suspect this sudden assumption of a limited vocabulary on the part of hon. Members opposite. They are not generally at a loss for words when they desire to use them. Indeed the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Burnley (Mr. A. Henderson) himself used the word "intimidate" in the course of the Debate when the hon.

  1885
  Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) was impeding his right of Parliamentary speech, and the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken in his closing sentence used the word "community," when he said that this Bill raised questions regarding the interests of the community. If it is legitimate for the two right hon. Gentlemen to use the words "intimidate" and "community," in senses which both they and everybody else understands, is it not legitimate for us to suppose that these words will be understood when we put them in an Act of Parliament? The word "intimidate" is not a new word. It has stood in the Act of 1875 for 51 years, and we have never heard any suggestion that the Act of 1875 was obscure when it referred to the intimidation which is there aimed at. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman asks me whether it has the same meaning in this Measure. I am dealing with Clause 1 of the Bill and the word "intimidate" in Clause 1 will have, of course, the same meaning as it bears in the 1875 Act and every other Act where it is used without qualification.
  Mr. WEBB: Does it mean physical violence to the community?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman asks me if it means physical violence to the community. If he is confusing the definition which is given in Clause 3 with the use of the word in Clause 1, perhaps there is some reason in his interposition. I think the use of this word "intimidate" is perfectly plain and one which would not embarrass anyone who has to administer the Measure. Let me make this final observation about Clause 1. Some hon. Members have been speaking of the general strike and the illegal strike as if it were something which grew up in a night—as if it were sown while men slept. These things are not done in a corner; and when we remember the trumpetings which heralded the general strike of exactly a year ago—
  Mr. TAYLOR: Why do you not explain the Bill?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: —when we remember the elaborate preparations of which only a part are known to the general public even yet, how can anybody confuse the general strike with such
  1886
  spontaneous ebulitions of passion as we are sometimes faced with in the lightning strike? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby asked what was the use of propounding the illegality of the general strike? I will give the right hon. Gentleman greater credit than he is prepared to give himself when I suggest that if he knows that the law makes a general strike illegal, he will not lend himself to it when it is proposed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley asked what the Government would do if they had to deal with 5,000,000 men who were on strike; would they fill the gaols with them; would they prosecute them in the magistrates' Courts? If the right hon. Gentleman knows as much as I suspect he knows, of the character of the British people, he will know that Acts of Parliament are not administered by the police but by the law-abiding character of the English race. Some Members have asked, how would the country or the Government be any better off if another general strike were proposed when this declaration stood upon the Statute Book? I do not know whether the leaders will be any better off or not, but at any rate they will have a warning and a knowledge which, perhaps, some of them have lacked hitherto. But what about the followers? Are they not more likely to be better off if they know, by a modern Act of Parliament and in language which I hope will be made clear and unambiguous, that what they are asked to take part in is illegal. It will be a notice before the catastrophe instead of the information which the right hon. Gentleman was so ready to give after the catastrophe.
  I can deal more shortly with the other Clauses of the Bill.
  Mr. TAYLOR: Tell us about Clause 1.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I will tell the hon. Gentleman, if he will allow me, what I think fit about the Bill and not what he thinks—
  Mr. TAYLOR Mr. TAYLOR rose—
  HON. MEMBERS: Sit down!
  Mr. SPEAKER: Is it a point of Order?
  Mr. TAYLOR: I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that the right hon. Gentleman expressly stated, a few moments ago, his intention to explain what was meant by

  1887
  the expression "a substantial portion of the community," and before he leaves Clause 1—
  HON. MEMBERS: Speech!
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is an inquiry, not a point of Order. I would point out to the hon. Member that the hon. and learned Solicitor-General has spent half an-hour over Clause 1 already.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I hope the hon. Member will not think me guilty of any discourtesy if I reserve what, after all, is a comparatively small point to the Committee stage. I was going to say that, before I come to the general observations which I want to make about the Bill, I can deal much more shortly with Clauses 3, 4 and 5. Some people are still in ignorance, I think, as to what is allowed in the way of picketing. The Clause deals with intimidation. It provides a special definition of intimidation for the purpose of this Clause, and in that respect the Bill, undoubtedly, does make a change in the law as it exists to-day, and I want hon. Members to notice that for the purpose of an observation which I will make in a moment. The second change which is made is that a succeeding Sub-section of this Clause 3 protects the home. It is quite true that it may be the home of a blackleg. The right hon. Member for Preston used words of withering effect as to the man whom he described as a blackleg. The language in which he described him was singularly alien from the kindly character of the right hon. Gentleman himself, and I am bound to say that as I listened I almost literally shuddered to think that words so dreadful could be used of a fellow-worker. But let it be supposed for a moment that those withering words were true, the man's wife and his children in any case share the obloquy which besets a man who has stepped out on a rough and lonely road. Let him, at any rate, have one place where his wife and children will be free from the besetting of his fellows. Let him, at any rate, have one place where he may, mistaken though he be, enjoy the company of those who alone make life worth living for him.
  When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley said that when this Bill is repealed they will be really
  1888
  putting back the law into the state in which it was before the introduction of this Bill, he is wrong. When he repeals this Bill he will deprive the home of this protection which it has not had hitherto. There is a mistake under which more than one hon. Member, and even right hon. Members, opposite have laboured. The right hon. Member for Preston last night said there is nothing in this Clause which deals with the employer. Is it possible that, having determined to oppose the Bill before he knew it, he has not troubled to read it? Is it possible that if he had read it it could have escaped his observation that both employer and workman are dealt with in the Clause under consideration? The answer is obvious. The right hon. Gentleman stated—
  Mr. T. SHAW: Are you asking me a question?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I know the answer to it. I will answer it for him. The right hon. Gentleman stated—
  Mr. SHAW: May I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on a point of Order, as to whether a speaker has the right to ask another hon. Member a question and then to answer it for him?
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is a common form of rhetoric.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: If there is any doubt about it, the right hon. Gentleman will see his words recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT. He stated quite plainly that there was nothing in Clause 3 which dealt with the employer. If he refers to Clause 3 he will find that the employer is dealt with, and intimidation by the employer is prohibited just as much as intimidation by the workmen. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby referred to intimidation which has taken place on the part of employers. I do not pretend that this Clause deals with all acts of intimidation. Employers undoubtedly are sometimes guilty of intimidation with which this Clause does not deal. But there are other people who are guilty of intimidation with which this Clause does not deal. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Derby has for the moment left the House, because I have here an illustration

  1889
  of intimidation with which this Clause does not deal which is an answer to or opposed to the intimidation to which he was referring. [HON. MEMBERS: "Here he is!"] I wonder what the right hon. Gentleman thinks of this new Red letter, which is not forged. [Interruption.] This is a statement addressed to railway non-unionists and members in arrears. It states that:
  "The time has come when you must join and keep your contributions up to date or you should get off the job. We extend you a welcome to join before it is too late, as on May 2nd, 1927, and five following days we are having an inspection of trade union cards"—
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]
  "and shall have a complete record of enemies or friends. Those members in arrears are requested to clear their cards, and all nons to join up before that date, as we cannot be held responsible for any definite decisive action that may be taken to clear out all nons"—
  [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the Law Society?"]
  "from the railway industry."
  In other words, we have the corollary to the threat which the employers, in the cases given, held out to their employés that they would not be employed again. This is an answer to that. It is said they will be cleared out of the railway industry and a living for them will be made impossible.
  Mr. THOMAS: Who signed it?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The right hon. Gentleman asks, "Who signed it?" It is headed, "The National Union of Railwaymen," and it is signed, "By Order of the Council, C. Rayner, Secretary." The right hon. Gentleman is not going to tell me that this document is not one which has been issued under the authority of a branch or a council of the union.
  Mr. THOMAS: I tell you it is repudiated by the executive.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that this document is repudiated by the Council of his union. Will it satisfy hon. Members opposite if I tell them that the Government also repudiates intimidation by employers. [Interruption.] In any event, we may say this, that whether we are able entirely to circumscribe the activities of intimidating employers or
  1890
  railwaymen, we have by this Bill done something to circumscribe the activities of the man who tries to compel others to action by threats of violence and loss of employment.
  Let me say one word about Clause 4 of the Bill, which has scarcely been noticed in the Debate in comparison with Clause 1. I am bound to say that when a man is told that he must belong to a union whether he likes it or not, it is only fair that he shall have the amplest opportunity of refraining from contributing to the political funds. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) asked a question which I am anxious to answer. He asked if employers' associations such as the Brewers' Association and the mineowners are involved. The answer is that they are not touched at all by this Bill. Their actions are legal or illegal under the Act of 1913, without this Bill having any effect on them at all. [Interruption.] I am answering the proposition put by the right hon. Gentleman. It is not singular to the employers' associations that the employment of money upon political purposes is legal or illegal under the Act of 1913. It is the same with regard to all trade unions. This particular Clause deals with the liability of individuals to contribute to the political fund, which is a wholly different question. The answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that the 1913 Act stands as the Statute which decides the legality of certain activities of the different trade unions, whether masters or men.
  In the few minutes which are left to me I want to deal with another point. It has been said that it is an inopportune time at which to pass this legislation. The right hon. Gentleman has been scathing in his denunciation of the Prime Minister. Is it quite fair for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs to tell the House that the Prime Minister has turned his back on the path of peace on which he had entered? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] Why, in August, 1926, did the right hon. Gentleman taunt the Prime Minister with being afraid to face cold steel? I have another quotation. Three or four years ago a Bill was being passed through this House for which the right hon. Gentleman claimed the credit this evening.

  1891
  It was the Emergency Powers Act. The right hon. Gentleman said it was the Act upon which the present Government based its action for dealing with the general strike. But whether he made that claim or not, my observation will be the same for this reason. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince was dealing with the Bill introduced while the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was Prime Minister, and he made precisely the same plea as the right hon. Gentleman now makes. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ince said:
  "Could there be any worse dementia shown by anyone than that shown by bringing in a Bill at that particular time, a time when, above all others, men of responsibility and good will should try to pull together?"
  Nevertheless the right hon. Gentleman persisted in his dementia, and what was the result? It was the Bill upon the strength of which the Labour Government drew up their proposals for dealing with an apprehended industrial struggle. It is that same Act of Parliament upon which the right hon. Gentleman said this Government acted, and I hope the same beneficent result will follow the persistence in the course which the Government has marked out for itself in connection with this Bill. We have been told that this is a lawyer's Bill. It is a citizen's Bill. It is a Bill which is conceived in
  the interests of a large, silent, suffering class. [Interruption.] We have been told that the trade unionists number between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000. but what about the millions who are told that they are to be trampled on but may not complain? Are they to be the silent victims of this strife between employers and employed? The Government have not been swift to act. Two years ago the Prime Minister made what he described as his gesture in this House, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shettleston (Mr. Wheatley) taunted the Prime Minister this evening with praying when he ought to be acting. Two years have passed. One year was spent in preparation for a struggle as disastrous as the floods which are now threatening to engulf a city. [Interruption.] Another year has been spent in making preparations for another struggle in many quarters. We hoped that, the trade unions would carry out the reforms which the Prime Minister waited for. The time for waiting has passed, and the time for action has arrived.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided: Ayes, 388: Noes, 168.

  Division No. 106]

  AYES.

  [11.0 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Bentlnck, Lord Henry Cavendish

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Berry, Sir George

  Burman, J. B.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Bethel, A.

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Albery, Irving James

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Campbell, E. T.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Appiln, Colonel R. V. K.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Apsley, Lord

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Atkinson, C.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Balniel, Lord

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Christie, J. A.

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Buchan, John

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Bennett, A. J.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Colfox, Major Wm. Philip

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Cope, Major William

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Couper, J. B.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Murchison, Sir Kenneth

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Hills, Major John Waller

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Neville, R. J.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Cunllffe, Sir Herbert

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hohier, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Oakley, T.

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Dixey, A. C.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N).

  Perring, Sir William George

  Drewe, C.

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Duckworth, John

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Phllipson, Mabel

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Pilcher, G.

  Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Ellis, R. G.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Preston, William

  England, Colonel A.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Radford, E. A.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Raine, W.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Ramsden, E.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Falls, Sir Charles F

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Kidd, J. (Llnlithgow)

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Remer, J. R.

  Fielden, E. B.

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Remnant, Sir James

  Finburgh, S.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Forrest, W.

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Fllnt)

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Ropner, Major L.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Rye, F. G.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Loder, J. de V.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Gates, Percy

  Looker, Herbert William

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Lougher, Lewis

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Goff, Sir Park

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Sandon, Lord

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Lumley, L. R.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Grace, John

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Savery, S. S.

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

  Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

  Grant, Sir J. A.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks. W. R., Sowerby)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

  McLean, Major A.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's, Univ., Belfast)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Skelton, A. N.

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E)

  Hanbury, C.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Meller, R. J.

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Harland, A.

  Merriman, F. B.

  Storry-Deans, R.

  1894

  1895

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Strickland, Sir Gerald

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Stuart, Crichton., Lord C.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Withers, John James

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Styles, Captain H. Walter

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Womersley, W. J.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Tasker, R. Inlgo.

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Wells, S. R.

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

  White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Wragg, Herbert

  Tinne, J. A.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Wilson, Sir C. H, (Leeds, Central)

  Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

  Waddington, R.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Colonel Gibbs.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hardie, George D.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Harney, E. A.

  Scurr, John

  Ammon, Charles George

  Harris, Percy A.

  Sexton, James

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Baker, Walter

  Hayes, John Henry

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Barnes, A.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Barr, J.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Batey, Joseph

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Bondfield, Margaret

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Smillie, Robert

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Briant, Frank

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Smith, H. B. Lees-(Keighley)

  Broad, F. A.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Bromfield, William

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Snell, Harry

  Bromley, J.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillo

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Buchanan, G.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

  Kennedy, T.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Cape, Thomas

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Strauss, E. A.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sullivan, J.

  Clowes, S.

  Lansbury, George

  Sutton, J. E.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lawrence, Susan

  Taylor, R. A.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lawson, John James

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lee, F.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Compton, Joseph

  Lindley, F. W.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Connolly, M.

  Lowth, T.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lunn, William

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Mackinder, W.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Townend, A. E.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  March, S.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Maxton, James

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon Stephen

  Dennison, R.

  Montague, Frederick

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Duncan, C.

  Morris, R. H.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Dunnico, H.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Fenby, T. D.

  Murnin, H.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Westwood, J.

  Gardner, J. P.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Palin, John Henry

  Whiteley, W.

  Gillett, George M.

  Paling, W.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Gosling, Harry

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Williams, Dr. J. H (Llanelly)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Potts, John S.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Greenall, T.

  Purcell, A. A.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffs)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Riley, Ben

  Windsor, Walter

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Ritson, J.

  Wright, W.

  Groves, T.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Rose, Frank H

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles

  Edwards.

  Question put accordingly, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided; Ayes, 386; Noes, 171.

  Division No. 107]

  AYES.

  [11. 13 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hanbury, C.

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir G. K.

  Harland, A.

  Albery, Irving James

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool. W. Derby)

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

  Cope, Major William

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Couper, J. B.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Apsley, Lord

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Atkinson, C.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Hills, Major John Walter

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsay, Gainsbro)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir- S. J. G.

  Balnfel, Lord

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

  Bennett, A. J.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Berry, Sir George

  Dixey, A. C.

  Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

  Bethel, A.

  Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Drewe, C.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Duckworth, John

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Ellis, R. G.

  lliffe, Sir Edward M.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  England, Colonel A.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Jacob, A. E.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Brass, Captain W.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Falls, Sir Charles F.

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Fermoy, Lord

  Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Kindersley, Major Guy M.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Finburgh, S.

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Forrest, W.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Buchan, John

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon- George R.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Lister, Cunliffe., Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Burman, J. B

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handswith)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Gates, Percy

  Loder, J. de V.

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Looker, Herbert William

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Lougher, Lewis

  Calne, Gordon Hall

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Campbell, E. T.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Cassels, J. D.

  Grace, John

  Lumley, L. R.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Lynn, Sir R. J.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Grant, Sir J. A.

  MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E.)

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  McLean, Major A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Blrm.,W.)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Macmillan Captain H.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Christie, J. A.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Hall, Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  1898

  1899

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K

  Remer, J. R.

  Tasker, R. Inigo.

  Meller, R. J.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Thom. Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Merriman, F. B.

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Mond, Rt. Hon Sir Alfred

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Ropner, Major L.

  Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth)

  Waddington, R.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Rye, F. G.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Murchison, Sir Kenneth

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Neville, R. J.

  Sandon, Lord

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Savery, S. S.

  Wells, S. R.

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

  White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple-

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Oakley, T.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central.)

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Wilson. R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

  Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Skelton, A. N.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Penny, Frederick George

  Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Withers, John James

  Perring, Sir William George

  Smithers, Waldron

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome.

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Wood, E. (Chester, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Pilcher, G.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Preston, William

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Storry-Deans, R.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Radford, E. A.

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Raine, W.

  Strickland, Sir Gerald

  Young. Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich)

  Ramsden, E.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Styles, Captain H. Walter

  Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

  Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Colonel Gibbs.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Dennison, R.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Duncan, C.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Baker, Walter

  Dunnico, H.

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Barnes, A.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Barr, J.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Batey, Joseph

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Gardner, J. P.

  Kennedy, T

  Bondfield, Margaret

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Kirkwood, D

  Briant, Frank

  Gillett, George M.

  Lansbury, George

  Broad, F. A.

  Gosling, Harry

  Lawrence, Susan

  Bromfield, William

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Lawson, John James

  Bromley, J.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Lee, F.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Greenall, T.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Lowth, T.

  Buchanan, G.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Lunn, William

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Mackinder, W.

  Cape, Thomas

  Groves, T.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Charleton, H. C.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Clowes, S.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  MacNeill-Weir, L.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  March, S.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Maxton, James

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Hardie, George D.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Compton, Joseph

  Harney, E. A.

  Montague, Frederick

  Connolly, M.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Morris, R. H.

  Cove, W. G.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Mosley, Oswald

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Murnin, H.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Hirst, G. H.

  Naylor, T. E.

  1900

  1901

  Oliver, George Harold

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Palin, John Henry

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Viant, S. P.

  Paling, W.

  Smillie, Robert

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Potts, John S.

  Snell, Harry

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Purcell, A. A.

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Welsh, J. C.

  Riley, Ben

  Stamford, T. W.

  Westwood, J.

  Ritson, J.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Whiteley, W.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Strauss, E. A.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Sullivan, J.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Sutton, J. E.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Taylor, R. A.

  Williams, T. (York. Don Valley)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Scurr, John

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Sexton, James

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Windsor, Walter

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Wright, W.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Townend, A. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.

  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next (9th May).—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (PROSECUTIONS).
  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (PROSECUTIONS).
  BETTING (PROSECUTIONS).
  BETTING (PROSECUTIONS).
  MOTOR TRAFFIC (ACCIDENTS).
  MOTOR TRAFFIC (ACCIDENTS).
  RAYON ARTIFICIAL SILK COMPANY, LIMITED.
  RAYON ARTIFICIAL SILK COMPANY, LIMITED.
  DRY SNUFF (DUTY).
  DRY SNUFF (DUTY).
  NATIONAL SAVINGS CERTIFICATES.
  NATIONAL SAVINGS CERTIFICATES.
  METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (CHARGES) ACT, 1907.
  METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (CHARGES) ACT, 1907.
  SMALL-POX, HENDON AND GOLDERS GREEN.
  SMALL-POX, HENDON AND GOLDERS GREEN.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CHELSEA BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL.
Read 2a.
WESTGATE AND BIRCHINGTON WATER BILL.
Read 2a.

ALIENS RESTRICTION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for fix Second Reading read.
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, this is a Bill to make permanent the existing powers for the control of aliens. The whole of the existing system of control, including the provisions for restricting the entry of fresh aliens into this country, the supervision of aliens who are here and the deportation of those who become undesirable, has been for the last eight years dependent on the annual renewal by the Expiring Laws Continuance Act of the Aliens Restriction Amendment Act of 1919, which continued "for a period of one year" the powers conferred by the Aliens Restriction Act of 1914 to impose restrictions on aliens by Orders in Council. It is now desirable to put these provisions on a permanent footing, and the Government have thought it right, instead of inserting any provision in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill of this year, to provide for the continuance of these provisions by a separate Bill. This Bill introduces no new principle. Its object is strictly the continuance of the system that has been in operation since 1920.
The general principle of alien control is no longer seriously disputed. Experience has made it clear that some method of regulating the flow of foreigners into this country is essential and that there must be power to order the deportation of those who abuse our hospitality. In

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the first place, it will, I think, be generally admitted that we ought to exclude those aliens who as individuals can be definitely classed as undesirable—for example, those who are suffering from infectious and contagious diseases, those who have criminal records, and those who have no means of livelihood and would, if admitted here, become dependent for their maintenance on public funds. Ever since the Act of 1905 it has been recognised that the exclusion of such specifically undesirable aliens is a necessary policy.
But in addition to the exclusion of foreigners who are individually undesirable, there is the necessity under present conditions of regulating the flow of newcomers whose presence here is undesirable, not because of their individual characters, but because of their numbers There are great masses of people, especially in the disturbed parts of Europe, who would be glad, if they could, to leave their own country and come to Great Britain. In the present state of our country, having regard especially to the shortage of houses and to the problem of unemployment, it would be impossible to admit any substantial flow of new settlers without worsening conditions here and, by the increase of competition, injuring our own people I understand that, according to the last Census, this is one of the most populous countries in the world, with a population of 483 to the square mile, and we have also, unfortunately, some 1,100,000 unemployed. As a consequence it has been necessary during recent years to establish a very strict barrier against new settlers.
The number of foreigners who are now allowed to come to this country for residence is very small. In dealing with all such applications the guiding principle of the Home Secretary has been: Will the presence of this man or this woman be to the advantage of this country? In a certain number of special eases permission is given to land here with a view to permanent residence on the ground that the presence of the foreigner here will be advantageous to this country from the point of view of trade, or from some other point of view, but all such cases are very carefully investigated and sifted. There are also a few cases in which the Home Secretary
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has felt able to allow foreigners to come here to join relatives when he has been satisfied that such foreigners will not come on the labour market, and that their exclusion would involve special hardship. The number of such special concessions is necessarily very limited. The difficulty which faces the Home Secretary in all these cases is that if he makes a concession in one case, similar claims can be made in scores of other cases, and accordingly additions on compassionate grounds to our existing population of foreign residents can only be granted very sparsely.
The regulations for the control of the entry of aliens can only be effectively administered if general principles are followed and rigorously applied with impartiality to all cases. While therefore the Home Secretary is always anxious to give sympathetic consideration to any special case, he must before making a concession be satisfied that the circumstances are really exceptional and such as would differentiate the particular case from hundreds of others. This policy of limiting closely the number of foreigners who are allowed to settle here is not based on any prejudice against the incorporation in our society of foreign elements. The advantage that this country has received from foreign settlers who have subsequently become good Britishers is well recognised. England owes much to able and enterprising foreigners, who, recognising the value of our free institutions, have come here to push their fortunes, have identified themselves with British sentiments and interests, and have added to the material and intellectual wealth of this country by developing inventions or business enterprises and by founding families whose sons have become eminent in industry and commerce or in the professions or in the arts. But under modern conditions it is impossible to admit that free flow of foreigners into this country which under different conditions might be possible.
The most important of these conditions is the state of the labour market, which necessitates a very rigorous control over the entry of foreigners for the purpose of employment. No alien is allowed to come into this country for the purpose of taking employment unless his prospective employer has obtained a permit for

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this purpose from the Ministry of Labour, and such permits are only granted if the Minister is satisfied, firstly, that every possible effort has been made by the employer to find suitable labour in this country, and, secondly, that the wages to be paid are not less than those usually received by British employees for similar work. The objects, of course, of these conditions are, (1), to secure that aliens shall not take work which could be equally well done by British subjects or by foreign persons already domiciled here, and, (2), that if a foreigner is admitted the wages paid shall not be such as to undercut the rates normally paid to British subjects. A considerable number of such permits are granted to persons in occupations where a knowledge of a foreign language or foreign conditions is essential, such as foreign correspondents in commercial firms and teachers of foreign languages. For some time also a certain number of permits for female domestic servants have been granted in cases where it is clear that the post cannot be filled by persons already in this country.
But while it is necessary, for the reasons I have described, to regulate closely the entry of aliens, it is equally necessary that the machinery for the control of alien passenger traffic should not interfere unduly with the entry into this country of the very large number of visitors who come here for business purposes, for holiday tours and for other legitimate objects. In the course of a year something over 380,000 alien passengers come into and go out of the United Kingdom. A great number of these are holiday tourists: for instance, in 1925, 185,000 tourists, including over 89,000 Americans, visited this country. Another large class, numbering about 85,000, consists of business visitors. In 1925 over 12,000 Dutchmen, 15,000 Frenchmen, about 14,000 Germans and about 11,000 American visitors, in addition to many thousands from other countries, came to the United Kingdom for business reasons. There are also large numbers of alien seamen who come into and go out of this country, and special measures have to be taken to deal with them. They are in a special class.
For the purpose of controlling this traffic and sifting out those who ought not to be admitted from those who are coming here for legitimate reasons, there
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is a staff of experienced immigration officers under the control of the Home Secretary at each of the ports, and it is provided in the Aliens Order that no alien may enter this country without permission. This requirement that permission must be obtained before an alien lands here is the keystone of the system of alien control. It would obviously be impossible to prescribe in any statutory form the exact conditions qualifying an alien for admission. It is easy to say that certain classes of definitely undesirable aliens shall not be admitted, but the great bulk of the alien passenger traffic consists of persons who may properly be admitted if they are coming here for a limited period for some recognised purpose, and the main task of the immigration officers is to satisfy themselves, by examining the aliens' papers and by questioning them in any doubtful cases, that the alien is coming here for some legitimate purpose.
In many cases the immigration officer allows an alien to land subject to a time limit, and in such cases further enquiries are made to see whether the alien has left within the time specified or whether there are proper grounds for extending the period of his or her visit. Aliens, for example, sometimes come to this country under the pretext that they are students coming to learn the language, and it is subsequently found that they are taking employment. Such cases are followed up, and if it is found that the alien has taken employment without permission he is promptly required to leave the country.
One of the most important items in the machinery for the control of alien traffic is the requirement that every person entering the country shall have a passport or some other document establishing his or her nationality and identity. This enables British subjects to be distinguished at sight from the aliens who have to undergo examination by the immigration officer. Complaints are from time to time made that the passport requirement is an unnecessary burden under present conditions for British subjects. If, however, a British subject were not provided with this ready means of identification, a great deal more inconvenience would be caused since it would be necessary to examine all the entrants to this country for the purpose of sifting the British subjects from the aliens. This would mean not only extra inconvenience

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to the British subject but also a large increase in the staff of the immigration officers and in the expense of the system.
As a result of the methods described, the number of new foreign settlers in this country during recent years has been reduced to a very small proportion, but there is, of course, a considerable body of foreigners who were settled in this country before the War and have been here a great number of years. The number of foreign residents has been gradually decreasing and the number registered at the beginning of this year was approximately 259,000. Obviously if you stop the flow of new immigrants it is natural that the alien population here should diminish. Some criminals are deported, some become British subjects, and some die. For the purposes of effective alien control it is necessary that, full particulars with regard to these persons who are residents in this country should be available, and accordingly there are detailed provisions in the Aliens Order requiring aliens who are in this country for any length of time to give particulars as to their names, nationality, profession or occupation, address, etc., and to notify changes of address.
Finally, in order to make the system of control effective, there must be power to order the deportation of aliens who after being admitted to this country are found guilty of crimes, and also of such aliens as may enter this country without permission. Attempts are, of course, constantly being made to evade the provisions Of the Aliens Order and there must be power promptly to deport any person who defies its provisions and manages by some subterranean method to get into this country without permission, as well as criminals in the ordinary sense.
The statutory provisions under which effect is given to the policy I have outlined are contained in the Aliens Order of 1920, as amended in certain minor respects by three subsequent Orders. These amendments have been embodied in the official print of the Order which is published as a Statutory Rule and Order. Before introducing this Bill the Government considered whether they should attempt to schedule in the Bill any parts of the existing Statutory Order but they came to the conclusion that this would be undesirable for several reasons. In the
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first place, it is important that the Government should have power to amend the provisions of the Order quickly and easily as and when circumstances alter, either for the purpose of removing any provisions which may be found owing to altered circumstances to be no longer required and to cause unnecessary inconvenience, or for the purpose of stopping up any holes which experience has shown may be used for the purpose of evading the intentions of the Order. Since 1920 three small Orders have been made amending the provisions of the main Order in certain matters of detail and from time to time further similar amending provisions may be required.
For example, the detailed provisions regulating the control of alien seamen coming to this country may require amendment as shipping conditions alter from time to time. The general object of these provisions is to secure, in the first place, that alien seamen landed from ships calling at ports in the United Kingdom shall not stop here and add to our alien population, and, secondly, that the control necesary for this purpose shall not unduly fetter the liberty of the men whose ship may be remaining for a few days in an English port. Obviously such provisions may require alteration from time to time when shipping conditions change. It is the practice of ships to ship foreign seamen abroad. They are in most cases bona fide seamen, and when they land at our ports they do not add to our floating population, but it is necessary that care should be taken to see that these seamen are bona fide seamen, and that they do not add to the unemployment in this country.
Then, secondly, even if certain of the provisions of the Order were scheduled in the Bill, it would nevertheless be necessary to leave so large a measure of administrative discretion to those concerned with their enforcement, that the scheduling of such provisions would not in fact remove the objection of principle that may be taken to the Bill on the ground that the powers conferred on the Government are too wide and indefinite. The present policy of alien control is founded on the principle of allowing large elasticity of discretion in dealing with individual cases. To attempt to embody in rigid statutory form any precise classification of the aliens who might

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be admitted, of the aliens who ought to be rejected and of the aliens who could be landed conditionally or for limited times and purposes, would be impracticable. If the regulations were so tightly drawn as to be effective for the purpose of securing the exclusion of all those aliens whom it is the present policy to keep out, they would cause great interference with the flow of business and holiday visitors. On the other hand, if the regulations were so loosely drawn as to minimise the inconvenience to our visitors, they would not be effective for the purpose of excluding those aliens who ought not to be admitted.
The present system of subjecting aliens to inspection and examination at the ports, of enabling the responsible officer to make more detailed enquiries in any case where he thinks it necessary, of enabling that officer either to reject the alien or to land him conditionally for a period pending reference to headquarters and further enquiries, has in practice been found to work extraordinarily well. The number of complaints received has been extremely few, and on the other hand many testimonies have been received to the courtesy and efficiency of the officers concerned.
Again, this system of allowing a large measure of administrative discretion enables the responsible Ministers to modify as circumstances may alter the guiding considerations with regard to the grant or refusal of admission. To take, for example, a small instance: the recent policy of admitting alien domestic servants has been based on the great difficulty of obtaining such servants in this country, and the extent to which these admissions should be granted or refused must naturally depend on the state of the labour market here. There are also other instances where these admissions have been most useful, and where permits have been granted for a limited purpose. For instance, there was the case of the new industry of artificial silk, and there was also the beet industry. There it was found very useful to admit foreign workmen to set up the machinery, and also to give the necessary instructions to workmen who were unacquainted with the work. As has already been explained, the general principle is that such foreigners are not at present admitted unless such a concession would be to the
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advantage of this country or unless there is some other quite exceptional circumstance justifying the concession. If this policy is to be continued, obviously, in the application of these principles to individual cases, discretion must be left to the responsible Ministers.
The check exercisable by Parliament lies in the fact that the Government, and the Home Secretary in particular, is answerable to Parliament for all the steps which he may take in pursuance of the powers conferred by this Bill. The Bill contains no new powers. These powers are in existence now, and the Bill proposes to continue them. Parliament can criticise either his general policy or his particular acts. The Home Secretary is always anxious to give Parliament full information as to the steps which he takes and to explain to Parliament the grounds for his general policy or his particular actions, but he is confident that for the purposes of continuing the existing policy which aims at securing adequate control over alien passenger traffic and adequate supervision of aliens resident here, while at the same time causing the minimum of inconvenience to visitors coming here for business or holiday or other purposes, the method proposed by the Bill is the most satisfactory which can be devised. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Desborough.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE, who had given Notice to move, That the Bill be read 2a this day six months, said: My Lords, I rise to ask your Lordships to consider, and to consider closely, before you give your assent to the principle of this Bill. A very distinguished contemporary man of science has said that it is only at the end of a science and when you have discovered all that is in it that you can tell what that science is about. Whether that is true of science or not it is certainly true of some of the Bills of the present Government. Any one who listened to the speech of the noble Lord who introduced this Bill would imagine that this was simply a Bill for keeping out undesirable aliens. It is a Bill that shuts out desirable people at least as much as it keeps out undesirable people. If it were merely a question of keeping out undesirable aliens I should not be standing here to-day. That is an old

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question. What I do object to is the introduction into our Constitution of a permanent principle which is foreign to it and which has never till now been tolerated except in case of war or in very dubious circumstances while carrying on war policy temporarily.
What is the Constitution of this country about foreigners coming in? By the Common Law the King could say a foreigner could come in and could stay in. At an early stage Parliament took that into its own hands and laid down in a succession of Statutes, with which I will not trouble your Lordships, the conditions and restrictions under which alone that power might be exercised. That culminated in the comparatively recent Act, now repealed, of 1905, which gave to the Secretary of State power, after passing an Order in Council, to keep out undesirable aliens. But it contained a very careful provision, which I regret to see does not exist in the legislation of the present Government, that no man was to be kept from coming into the country when he came here to seek refuge from either political or religious persecution. That was a sacred and fundamental tenet of our Constitution, repeated carefully from time to time. It was dropped at the time of the War and after the War it has not been revived.
A NOBLE LORD: Hear, hear!
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I do not know if the noble Lord approves of the exclusion of people who come here to take refuge from persecution, religious or political, but anyhow that was our firm principle. A War Act was passed in a few hours. I think it was passed through both Houses in a single afternoon. It put restrictions upon aliens coming into this country. They were severe and serious restrictions. I was a member of the Cabinet which passed that Bill and it was a Bill which was necessary in the circumstances. We could not foresee what we might be called upon to deal with in time of war. That was passed and it continued for the period of the War. Then came another Act, passed under much more dubious circumstances in 1919, which continued the War Act, with various changes which, I dare say, the noble Lord might call improvements; at any rate it applied with greater
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stringency to people seeking to enter this country. That was enacted to continue for a year. It did continue for a year. Then, bitten by the desire which the new doctrine inspired, the Government of the day continued it in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act of that year and they have continued it each year since until, as the noble Lord says, eight years have passed during which we have been dependent on the Statute, the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, for keeping alive these provisions which, observe, were solely for war time and are more severe now than even they were in war time.
One would have thought that that had become unnecessary. We are at peace with many of the peoples who were struck at by that Act. Germans and Austrians were named in it. The Act has expired so far as concerns Germans and Austrians, but the Government have taken a power—they began to take it after 1919—into their hands by which the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, by Order in Council, restricts the foreigner in an almost equally severe manner. No foreigner, no alien, can enter this country unless he gets a permit from the Ministry of Labour, or whoever represents the Ministry of Labour, and even then he can only stay three months. The noble Lord said that these people state that they have come to this country to go to a University, or to study, or to get knowledge, and that then they find employment and continue to live here. That is considered to be something very disgraceful and they are shipped off back again to their own country.
Very often people come to study in the hope that they may get employment and that is one of the ways in which we get many of our best people. Very intelligent people come here and they get a certain amount of instruction, perhaps in our own language, and then they are sought after. I had a case put before me in connection with this Bill. It was brought to me by a very well-known man of business in London. He has a very large business which involves the importation of foodstuffs from various countries. This was his experience. It was essential for him to get a secretary who could correspond in foreign languages commercially. That is a kind of person most difficult to get in this country. We do not train our people as they train them

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on the Continent, as they do, for instance, in Switzerland, in Germany and even in Italy. This business man got somebody who had come here to study and had acquired a knowledge of the English language. She was a lady of perfectly unexceptionable character; he was very thankful to get hold of her and appointed her secretary. She became an admirable correspondent, but now the Ministry of Labour have ordered her out of the country. She is going back and the unfortunate business man is left without his secretary. I am not surprised that he said to me the other day: "Well, I have voted Conservative all my life, but I shall consider carefully about voting Conservative at the next Election." That is only one illustration of a class of case which is very numerous indeed.
Your Lordships no doubt have had a circular from the Jewish community. It came to me this morning and I have no doubt it came to many of your Lordships. This community are constantly bringing people whom they wish to employ here and who come with a knowledge of foreign affairs and of foreign languages which is peculiarly useful and is irreplaceable. What are they to do? You ought to encourage them to come, but they will not come if they know they have to be inspected by a clerk of the Ministry of Labour who does sums after the manner of the noble Lord and says: "Each square mile of the population has so many foreigners; that is too many and we will proceed to cut down." And they cut down irrespective of the qualifications of these persons. I am not standing here arguing for the unrestricted bringing in of foreigners. I am standing here asking that we should allow to come in any desirable foreigners who add to our efficiency in industries such as, for instance, those to which the noble Lord himself referred, artificial silk and beet, or in other ways. They are valuable here because we do not train our people in the same way; and before you make a change of this kind you had better set your education system in order still more than you have done up to the present time.
The result is that in all these cases, and in a number of others which I could mention, the difficulty is now increasing of getting the kind of specially qualified person we require. Your Lordships may find
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that out for yourselves. How are you going to get governesses for your children? You may get one and they may pass her on the ground that she is a most unobjectionable person and that it is desirable that there should be opportunities of giving instruction in French and German to the children. But is the unfortunate governess going to come here to be put through a catechism of this kind by the representative of the Ministry of Labour or the Home Office, whichever it may be, who can exercise a judgment upon her based on doing sums—that fatal principle to which I have recently had occasion to draw your attention in connection with economy and which certainly applies equally strongly to the keeping out of aliens?
I think we shall hear a great deal more of this. What is it that the Bill does? It is a very short Bill, a commendably short Bill, but like the science of which I spoke it requires a great deal of study in order to find out what it really does. It does not re-enact any of the sections of the Act of 1919, excepting the first, but then the first contains the gist of the whole matter. The first section of that Act it is that enables the Home Secretary to make almost any order he likes keeping out the foreigner. It is most objectionable that when people wish to come over here they should have to submit themselves to a sort of inquisition—conducted nobody knows exactly by whom, but by somebody who represents probably the Ministry of Labour in this case, and who cannot go into matters very fully—and should be turned back. It is bad from the point of view of bringing money into the country. It is still worse from the point of view of bringing talent into the country. It is said, why should you bring people to compete with your own people? Yes, but have you people to compete with? We do not want to bring in people to take the bread out of our own people's mouths, but we do want to bring in people who will find bread for others by their skill, bread which cannot be supplied by our not numerous qualified people who are all that at present exist.
I venture to suggest to the noble Marquess who leads the House that this is not a matter to be adventured rashly. There is sitting at Geneva—I think it began its sittings either yesterday or to-day—an Economic Conference which is to survey in conjunction with labour

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measures all these clauses and I strongly suggest to the noble Marquess—he may for all I know have something of the kind an his mind—that this Bill should not pass until you know what are the views of those with whom we are assembled in conference and with whom we desire to confer and with whom we recognise it is a duty to confer—until you know what they have to say about this principle, because a new principle it is in our Constitution. It is a thing we have never had, it is a thing which will let down our reputation for being an open and hospitable nation, it is a thing which cannot do any real good in the matter of unemployment in this country, because it does not touch the unemployed class with whom you are concerned, and it is a measure which I think will irritate and vex and worry your own people until in a few years these people will wonder how it was ever passed. On those grounds I move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day six months").—(Viscount Haldane.)
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, I rejoice to see in his place the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, but I should be the more happy if I felt that by good luck he had read over before this occasion his own speeches and other speeches on the occasions when this Act of 1919 was before your Lordships' House for the Second Reading, on the Committee stage and at the stage when, largely under his guidance, we refused to accept the Amendments of the House of Commons and did our best to protect aliens—and, even then, alien enemies—from unjust treatment.
This measure, as explained by the noble Lord who has opened the debate, is an attempt to work the Act by the Home Office for a purpose for which it was never introduced into your Lordships' House or into Parliament. I have before me at this moment the report of the speech by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, who, on behalf of the Government, moved the Second Reading of the Act in 1919. He said:
"I will now briefly review the various provisions of the Bill. The first two clauses"—
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those two clauses now constitute the first clause which is under consideration—
"are devoted to providing for the continuance and extension of the emergency powers conferred under the Act of 1914. The question might perhaps be raised, indeed has been mentioned to me, as to why it is necessary, new that the War is over, to provide for the continuance of the powers required in time of war. I will therefore point out to your Lordships that the extension of these powers is for a strictly limited period—namely, for one year only"—
that was in 1919, only a year after the peace, or rather a year after the Armistice and before the peace—
"and that, being in the state of transition that we are, it is a matter of necessity for His Majesty's Government to maintain temporarily the powers which proved essential during the War."
It was on those terms that your Lordships were invited to pass, and did pass, this measure.
When the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, came to speak he supported the general outline of the measure, though he took part in leading a band of which I am proud to say I was one, a band consisting of himself, the most rev. Primate, the late Lord Bryce (whose views on this subject may be very well observed by anybody who the last pages of his new biography), Lord Newton and many others, whose object was to take many stings out of the measure. I am quite prepared to agree that the noble Marquess supported this measure on the Second Reading, but this is what he said:
"Neither is this Bill the altogether objectionable measure that might have been supposed from some of the speeches which have been delivered this evening. I do not speak of the purely temporary provisions involved in Clause 1 of the Bill—I mean the prolongation of the principal Act for one year—they may be open to some exception, especially the additions which are involved in Clause 2. But at any rate, for the most part, they are a purely temporary affair."
What was the clause in the Act of 1919 which we are now asked to make permanent? There had been passed immediately on the outbreak of War a very proper measure, which apparently was in the pockets of the Home Secretary already, providing enormous powers with regard to aliens of all sorts quite independently of whether they were friendly or not. It was passed at once. But

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the provisions were especially tied to the time when there might be a war on or when there should be a period of danger against general tranquillity. The first part of subsection (1) of the clause that you are now asked to make permanent reads as follows:—
"The powers which under subsection (1) of Section one of the Aliens Restriction Act, 1911, … are exercisable with respect to aliens at any time when a state of war exists between His Majesty and any foreign Power, or when it appears that an occasion of imminent national danger or great emergency has arisen, shall, for a period of one year after the passing of this Act, be exercisable, not only in these circumstances, but at any time."
That is the clause which the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, asked your Lordships to accept on the ground that it was a War provision, that we were in a state of transition and that we must preserve the powers of the Act, though only for the period of one year. That provision has been renewed from time to time, and it may or may not be necessary to renew it for another year. But to incorporate it into the law of England, as one noble Lord has observed to me, seems like repealing Magna Charta. To incorporate in our law provisions such as are included in this section, provisions that are exercised in the way described in the Order in Council of 1920, which Lord Desborough mentioned, is in fact to pervert the object for which this measure was introduced into a permanent change in the whole constitution of English society.
After that which has fallen from the noble Viscount on that part of the case I will content myself with saying that it seems somewhat humorous that we, who have had war after war with the Chinese because they would not let us enter their country, who forced the Japanese at the point of the sword to let us come into their country, should now be turning round and building what used to be called a Chinese wall around this island against the admission of foreigners, after all our experience Of what this country has gained by admitting them. I wonder how many of your Lordships whom I am now addressing owe your brains, your money and your position to the fact that you are descended from some of the exiles who have come into this country from
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across the sea. But I leave that point without further comment. It may be necessary to have strict powers to keep out undesirable aliens, but they are perverted into a sort of trade protection when they are used in the manner proposed in the Home Office Memorandum to which reference has been made. They were not intended to provide against labour competition or anything of that kind: they were designed to provide protection in case of war, and they were passed by the Legislature on those terms.
I turn from that. If the Order in Council of 1920 has not been modified—and I do not think that it has, but the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—it enables the Secretary of State to deport any alien under certain conditions; and it then proceeds to say, in paragraph (6) of Article 12:
"A deportation Order may be made in any of the following cases:—
….(c) If the Secretary of State deems it to be conducive to the public good to make a deportation Order against the alien."
I am not now dealing with admissions. I have left admissions with the observations that I have already made. I am dealing now with deportations. Under that Order every alien in this country has a sword of Damocles hanging over his head at the nutum of the Secretary of State. The greatest American banker, the greatest artist, a great philologist, a great professor at the Universities or anyone else may, at a moment's notice, find himself compelled to leave this country, and the Secretary of State has power in the meanwhile to arrest him and keep him in custody until he goes.
That is how this Order has carried into effect the provisions of the Act. Let your Lordships consider for one moment what we should say if a respectable English banker in Paris, or a professor in Italy or the United States, were suddenly told in this manner to break up his home, to leave his house, possibly to face ruin through the breaking up of his business at the command of the Secretary of State of the country. What would Lord Palmerston have said, with his Civis Romanussum, if any Englishman had been treated in that manner in any part of the world? That is the mischief of this clause. The Secretary of State may send away any foreigner of the friend-

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liest nation—not a German, or Hungarian or Russian, but one of our own Allies, a Belgian, a Frenchman or an American—at a moment's notice under this Order in Council.
No doubt I shall be told that the Secretary of State will be a reasonable man and will exercise his discretion reasonably and with a sense of responsibility. There are two answers to that. In the first place, the Secretary of State cannot and, I am sure, does not himself deal with all the cases, at any rate where the humbler people are concerned. In the second place, if you are going to allow this provision you may as well have a despotism at once. A benevolent despotism is, I dare say, a very good thing, and it is extremely likely that what we call Parliamentary democracy will come to it in the end, and will put some one person in power and allow him, so long as he remains in power, to do whatever he likes. But that at present is not the Constitution of England, and nobody would dare at the moment to advocate it. Yet that is the position in which you are putting the Secretary of State.
I suppose everybody has conic across instances. The noble Viscount has referred to one, and here is one that happened to me the other day. A distinguished literary lady, known to a good many people and of high repute, came to me. She had a girl under her protection, I think of Russian origin, who had lost her father. Her mother had been married again to some other foreigner, and father and mother were living at Monte Carlo. I rather gathered that the lady was not particularly anxious that the step-father should see too much of the girl. The girl had been in this country for some years at school. She either made a periodical visit to the authorities when so required or she was sent for. She was then told, very politely, very kindly and very nicely, that the Home Office thought that she would have to leave the country in two or three months and go back to her people—not to her own country; she could not go to her own country, which was Russia, but to her people in another foreign country which would be more hospitable to her that we are. I do not know what the end of the story is.
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It may be that my friend, being a lady, rather overstated her case, and the Home Office had some points to make against her; but I am allowing for this when I make the statement that I am now making. The girl had been in this country for two or three years, and the letter from the Home Office, which I saw, was to the effect that she ought not to stay here and take the bread out of the mouths of people living in this country. What are we to say to our English people who want to go abroad and prosper? Are we to expect other countries to say to them: "You must not come here, for you are taking the bread out of our mouths"? It will end by everybody using nothing but telephones. Everybody will have to stay in his own country and never venture to go across the water. People will have to telephone from one country to the other. That will be the result of building up these Chinese walls of exclusion.
I conclude by making a reference to a case that the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will probably remember. In the year 1920 this House, sitting judicially, had to decide an appeal from Ireland, where a scoundrel, if ever there was one, sued for a sum of money which had been taken from him by police officers. The Irish Government pleaded an act of State, and said a foreigner for this purpose had no rights. Your Lordships, sitting judicially, held in some very eloquent language, which emanated from other members of the Tribunal, that a foreigner once in this country, and once having come under the protection of the Crown, was entitled to exactly the same rights as an English inhabitant. This legislation deprives him of all his rights and in effect repeals, so far as he is concerned, the Habeas Corpus Act.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I should hesitate to intervene in this debate but for the fact that when the Acts of 1914 and 1919 were being discussed in another place I took some part in those discussions—a part which I certainly was not ashamed of at the time and which I am not ashamed of now. It would be a little strange to find a demand of the Executive Government for powers for dealing with aliens coming into thus country refused, unless an exceedingly strong case were made out for refusing

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that demand. They know best what is required. I grant that if a strong case were made out, such as abuse of these powers, or proof that they were unnecessary, then there might be some justification for the proceeding which has been indulged in by noble Lords opposite tonight. But, so far from a strong case being made out for rejecting this Bill, I never heard, if I may respectfully say so, a more feeble case presented.
We might have expected, for instance, that there had been strong diplomatic representations from foreign countries that their nationals were not being properly treated. There is no suggestion of the sort, and for the very good reason that, so far as I know, no foreign country has made any representation to our Government that their nationals are being in any way unfairly treated under the provisions of this Act. If foreign countries do not complain, then one might have expected that noble Lords who oppose the Bill would have brought forward some gross cases of abuse of power by the Home Secretary. Anyone who expected that must have been sorely disappointed. It is true that the noble and learned Viscount brought forward two cases. I listened to him with respect but they were such astounding cases.
The first was that of some female secretary who spoke foreign languages and who, at the end of the period for which she bad been admitted into this country, was requested to go back to Germany. Are we to suppose that there was no one in this country who could speak foreign languages and fill the post of secretary to the friend of the noble and learned Viscount? That was the first case, and a stranger case to bring forward I cannot imagine. Then the noble and learned Viscount made a personal appeal to members of this House. He said that it is possible that some of your Lordships may require the services of a German governess for your children, and he implied that it would be a terrible thing if the Home Secretary were not to allow a German governess to come in and instruct the members of the households of your Lordships.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Or a French, or an Austrian?
LORD DANESFORT: Supposing a French or German governess were not
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allowed to land: Would that be a reason for rejecting a Bill demanded by the Executive Government?—a Bill of the utmost importance to the good government of the country, as events have shown. Lord Phillimore also gave an instance, which he said was an unfortunate one. I confess I did not follow it very well, but, as I understood, it came to this, that there was some daughter of some foreign parents who wanted to come over here to school.
LORD PHILLIMORE: No, she had been in this country for years.
LORD DANESFORT: As I understand the parents were foreigners, and she wanted to come here for schooling and there was some difficulty. I understand that the matter is still under consideration, and that nothing has been settled. Is that a reason for rejecting the Bill? Yet those are the only instances given by the noble and learned Viscount and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore, why your Lordships should reject the Bill on the ground of some abuse of jurisdiction. I might perhaps leave the matter there, but I should just like to ask noble and learned Lords opposite to which of the powers which this Bill will give to the Executive do they object?
There are two main powers conferred by this Bill. In the first place power is given to the Home Secretary to prevent aliens from coming into this country. Have we no unemployment in this country Do you think the people of this country would approve of leaving the Home Secretary paralysed, without power to prevent unnecessary and undesirable aliens from coming in? It is true that Lord Phillimore said he would like to prevent the entry of undesirable aliens. I think there is reason for keeping out of this country not only undesirable aliens but aliens who will compete, and compete unfairly, with our own people, and having regard to the great lack of employment there is in this country—a million of our own people are out of employment—I think it would be deplorable if the Home Secretary had no power to keep aliens out, and to keep such employment as there is, in the interests of our country, for the benefit of the people of our country. Yet that is one of the powers of which apparently noble Lords opposite

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desire to deprive the Home Secretary. I gather from their silence that that is one of the powers to which they object.
Then there is the other principal provision—the deportation of aliens from the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord Phillimore, tried to make your Lordships feel uncomfortable by conjuring up some deplorable picture of a great German or other philosopher who might be turned out at a moment's notice by the arbitrary action of a despotic Home Secretary. He said there might be other great scientists and persons of eminence, of European reputation, whose presence might be of infinite benefit to this country, but who might undergo a similar fate. Has such a thing ever happened? Has it ever been known under this Act? If it has not happened, and cannot happen, what is the good of attempting to terrify your Lordships by such imaginary visions of appalling unfairness and injustice? I should like to know really whether the noble and learned Viscount who moved the rejection of the Bill wants to take away from the Home Secretary this absolutely essential power of deportation, or whether he would paralyse his action by limiting it to some cases of extreme undesirability. If that is his desire I hope and trust that your Lordships will not accede to that view.
Then the noble and learned Viscount, as I understood him, suggested that, instead of passing legislation in the interests of this country, we should go to some conference at Geneva, and talk it over with them, abandoning our rights to settle our own affairs for ourselves and to determine which aliens we should admit and which we should deport. That suggestion does not commend itself to me either as a practical one or as a reasonable and justifiable one. As the Home Secretary has laid down in matters of this sort, our governing principle should be what is to the interest of this country. Without any unfairness to the inhabitants of other countries, let us ask ourselves what is for our advantage. For that purpose I do not think it is necessary to go to Geneva, or to any other part of the world.
Supposing that your Lordships were to accept the advice of the noble and learned Viscount and of Lord Phillimore, what powers would the Home Secretary have for dealing with aliens who desired to
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come into this country, or who ought to be turned out of this country? The answer is, none whatever. Is that a state of things which ought to be tolerated? We had a debate in this House recently on Communist activities in this country, in which I think it was clearly shown that there was a violent, ferocious, malignant campaign of lies carried on by the Communists against this country—by persons acting under the instigation and, I doubt not, with the financial support of Moscow. Supposing we wanted to deport any one of those conspirators against our country: Is the Home Secretary to be paralysed? Are there to be no means of turning a person out? On that occasion I challenged seine noble and learned Lords opposite to say whether they agreed with the propaganda of these Communists, the object of which was to turn the British out of China and to bring about the recall of our troops. I am sorry I got no answer. I do not believe that the people of this country approve of violent, lying, intriguing propaganda, carried on in this country by Communists to shake the foundations of our power and to do injury to our own people in China. If we wanted a case in which the Home Secretary should be armed with powers to stop such pernicious action I do not think you could have a better illustration. I therefore ask your Lordships to say, first of all, that the Home Office, in the excellent speech of my noble friend Lord Desborough, have advanced strong reasons for the powers comprised in this Bill, and, secondly, that the reasons put forward for the rejection of the Bill are such as your Lordships cannot accept.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I am somewhat amazed at the speech to which we have just listened, because the noble Lord has obviously been dealing entirely with the view that we should keep undesirable aliens out of this country. No one will take exception to that view, but what some of us do take strong exception to is that under the provisions of this Bill a Home Secretary can make conditions which will keep out aliens whose admission is desirable in the interests of this country. The other day we discussed in this House what I should have thought was a somewhat twopenny-halfpenny Bill, the Rooks and Rabbits Bill, and it seems to me that this Bill might be regarded

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by some of your Lordships as a Bill which deserves the same description. But there is a very important principle involved in this case. The first principle with which it conflicts is that when an emergency measure has been passed by Parliament for a special purpose, as the Aliens Restriction Act was passed in 1914 on the outbreak of the War, it is not fair to Parliament to place such a measure permanently on the Statute Book.
I have had put into my hands a provision of Magna Charta, which was re-enacted, dealing with foreign merchants. The provision was as follows:
"All merchants shall have their safe and sure conduct, to come into England, to tarry in and go through England, as well by land as by water, to buy and sell, except time of war."
For the purposes of war we repealed that Act for the time being and placed certain powers in the hands of the Executive. In 1919 it was made a measure which had to be re-endorsed by Parliament every year, and now your Lordships are asked to put it permanently on the Statute Book.
I have given some study to the question of foreign aliens coming into this country. At two General Elections I was opposed by the late Mr. Arnold White on this very subject. I was not very keen about it when the Election began, but when my opponent made a great deal of capital out of the question of foreign aliens coming into this country to deprive the working men of their livelihood and lower their standard of living—a doctrine which secured a great deal of sympathy from the working class—I was obliged to give it closer attention. When I looked into it I realised that it was absolutely essential for this country, in the interests of our own industries, that certain classes of aliens should be admitted. You have among the chemists of the world, in Germany and elsewhere, some very able scientific men whose knowledge and help are necessary in connection with our chemical industries. There are many processes in which we require these aliens to help us, both in order to teach us and in order to help us to carry on our industries and create wealth which will secure fresh employment for our own population. These men can be, and are, arbitrarily kept out of this country by
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the provisions already enforced by the Home Secretary which this Bill now proposes to make permanent.
There are many other cases to which I might allude. There are the musicians. We have not got all the musical talent in the world. As the late president of the British Broadcasting Company I was anxious, four years ago, to try to secure the best music that the world could produce for the benefit of those who listen to our concerts, and yet I was deprived of the opportunity of bringing musicians into this country by these very Orders, with the result that in many cases mediocre music had to be given in place of much better music from abroad. The same thing happens in connection with servants to-day. We all know the difficulty of securing good cooks, we all know that the working people of this country suffer from bad cooking, probably more than they realise, and yet we are not allowed to bring capable Frenchmen into our households in order that we may get French cooking and scientific cooking and good purchasing of materials for our tables. I tried only last year, when I had difficulty in getting a cook, to be allowed to get a young French chef, but I was refused that permission. And so the case is with many industries in this country. It has been established beyond any doubt that a large number of industries have been created by the introduction of foreigners and that there are industries in this country which would not have been here unless foreigners had been allowed to come in.
But I take my opposition to this Bill on the sound principle of liberty. I believe that Englishmen have a right to sell their labour where they like, how they like and for what they like, and I equally believe that Englishmen have the right to employ labour where they like and how they like, so long as the community does not suffer. I am quite satisfied that if you allowed Englishmen latitude as to the persons they should bring in from abroad the hospitality of this country would not be abused by a little relaxation of the provisions of this measure, which it is proposed to make permanent. Competition in many walks of life is very valuable. Other nations employ Englishmen; they are glad to have the competition of Englishmen and to have Englishmen to teach their own people

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how to improve their work. We ought to have the same right in this country. For these reasons I shall resist this Bill and if there should be a Division I shall vote in favour of the Amendment of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, when I came to the House this afternoon I knew nothing about the intentions of this Bill. Since I have been here I have carefully listened to the very powerful and able speeches which have been made on both sides. I do not find myself in agreement with the powerful speech of my noble friend on my left (Lord Danes fort), but I do find myself in agreement with the noble and learned Viscount opposite (Viscount Haldane). I confess that he did convince me of the soundness of his objections to this measure and his argument was very strongly reinforced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore. He very appositely quoted the utterances of my noble friend the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) and also of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. I think those arguments are as strong to-day as they were in 1919. The intention of the Bill seems to be to make permanent and rigid a system which might be very greatly abused in the future. It is now 1927, nearly nine years after the Armistice, and the powers which the Government have had have, I think, been found to be ample. I shall vote against this Bill because I believe it would be harmful and because I am not convinced the present powers of the Government are not quite ample to deal with the situation.
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I will not trouble your Lordships for long but I should like to say a few words upon this matter. I was very much struck by the statement in Lord Desborough's speech that there were 14,000 Germans in this country for business purposes. I am not very fond of Germans; I do not think any of us are very fond of Germans, but I suppose we must take the noble Lord's word that the business purposes for which these Germans are here are of a harmless nature. I should like to refer to what was said by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane. He evidently alluded to a great philosopher when he mentioned that such a person
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might be kicked out of the country by the Home Secretary at a moment's notice. I suppose he referred to Einstein.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: No, I did not speak of a philosopher; I spoke of a cook.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I took down the noble Lord's words. He spoke of a philosopher at the beginning of his speech. We will deal with the cook presently. The noble Lord said "a great philosopher."
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I said a great man of science had said that you never could discover what a science is about till you got to know the whole of it, and that that was true of Government Bills and of this Bill.
THE EARL OF MAYO: We have been trying to find out what the science is about. The noble and learned Viscount went on to say that there were many desirable foreigners who should be allowed to come into this country. I am not very fond of foreigners, yet I do not want to see specially qualified persons turned out of the country. The noble and learned Viscount mentioned several countries but he did not mention Sweden. From Sweden you can get most excellent servants, and excellent cooks, and the Swedes are our friends. Yet Sweden is a country that was not mentioned. Not only can you get most excellent cooks from Sweden but you can also get most excellent governesses. The noble and learned Viscount complained that any foreigner would have to go before a clerk of the Home Office and be put through a sort of inquisition by that clerk, and he said that was a very disgraceful thing for anybody to be subjected to. It is all very well to say that but, as your Lordships know, there are a great many unemployed people in this country and we do not want to increase that unemployment by allowing foreigners to come in here without restrictions.
I should now like to say a few words with regard to the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore. He began a most dreadful story about a beautiful young lady whom it was desirable for certain reasons to keep away from her future father-in-law. Well, he must have been a very bad father-in-law, I think, but why begin a story of that

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sort without giving us the end of it? That leads to nothing at all. There is one thing we did learn from Lord Phillimore and that is that she was very beautiful.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I am sure you know.
THE EARL OF MAYO: Oh no, I have not seen her. I wish I had. She was very beautiful and her future father-in-law must be a very bad lot indeed. That is all I can say. But, as I said before, why begin this direful story without being able to end it? I should like to go back now to what Lord Gainford said with regard to Magna Charta. What he read out is perfectly correct, but let us go a few hundred years further on and find out exactly what happened under what was called the Hanseatic League of which, I dare say, the noble Lord has heard. That great Queen, Elizabeth, very soon got rid of the German guilds who were smothering our trade. They were smothering it so badly that she kicked them out. They were driven out of the City of London, they were packed off in the ships that were got ready to send them back to Germany, and our traders then could deal with the trade of the country with freedom and without interference. That is what happened.
I will not trouble your Lordships very much longer, but I should like to read an extract from a letter by a gentleman called Mr. Aylmer Maude. He was referring to a speech made by Mr. Clynes—I suppose Mr. Clynes has not altered his opinion since then—and this is what he said:—
"Our manufacturers would do better to consider the comparative advantages of the different markets rather than make it their prime object to advance a system the ultimate success of which would endanger their future existence and ensure a great increase of unemployment in this country."
That is signed "Your faithfully Aylmer Maude," and it is an excerpt from The Times. I have now finished what I have to say and I shall support the Bill most certainly. I believe Lord Parmoor is going to speak, but I have not yet heard a single argument that makes me believe that the Home Secretary is not quite right in giving himself powers to keep out or let in aliens as he chooses. If he had not those powers I should pity him. He has stuck to his
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guns like a man and I think we ought to support him. Whatever is said from the other side of the House will not alter my opinion in this matter. When the Bill goes to a Division I shall vote for it.
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords before the House divides perhaps I may be permitted to give one or two explanations. My noble friend who sits behind me and who has now left the House seemed to be under a misapprehension with regard to the Bill. He seemed to think we were introducing something new into the Constitution whereas the fact is we are only continuing a system under which we have lived and prospered for the last eight years. I really do think that if there had been all those objections to the continuance of the Act which have been stated here this afternoon, we should have had great complaints from foreign countries as to the way in which the Act was administered Such, however, has not been the case There is absolutely nothing new in this Bill, but it does make permanent an Act which has been in force as the law of the land for eight years.
There are one or two remarks I should like to make in regard to the speech of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane. I think he rather under-rated the educational facilities of this country, which have been vastly improved of late years. I have been connected for some years with the London Chamber of Commerce. We set up a system of educating clerks in all foreign languages, including Arabic, and in other matters useful to those concerned in foreign trade. In the first year we had 250 students and I am sure it will please my noble and learned friend to hear that last year we examined 24,000 students in all foreign languages and in some very abstruse subjects.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Those are clerks.
LORD DESBOROUGH: Yes, and I think that shows that there is not such a dearth as is hinted at of those capable of conducting correspondence in foreign languages. With regard to the case of the unfortunate lady he referred to—I think I know the employer—the fact is that this lady when she came over gave the impression that she was coming here

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to study the language, and she was given a permit for that purpose, but she stayed on beyond the period for which the permit was given and was taken into employment at a time when she had no permit. Therefore the position really was that she had not carried out the terms under which she was allowed to enter this country. As to what Lord Phillimore said, aliens have no right to come into this country.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I did not say they had a right to come into this country. What I said was that when they had got into this country with the leave of the King they had every right of English subjects.
LORD DESBOROUGH: That is an act of grace on the part of those who have perhaps more right in the United Kingdom. If we take the last two years, only 2,000 aliens were rejected out of 370,000 who came to this country. Certain remarks have been made as to the difficulty
Resolved in the affirmative accordingly, and Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
of getting domestic servants and therefore it may be of interest if I state how many domestic servants came to this country last year and how many were rejected. Permits were granted for 1,872 domestic servants and 473 were refused. As to teachers of foreign languages, they are allowed to come in. There seems to be an idea that they are kept out. Of these 338 were admitted in one year, and only five of those who applied were rejected. I do not know that it is necessary to answer any further points that have been raised in the debate. I should be sorry if any member of the House were to vote under the impression that anything new or anything that had not been done for the last eight years were proposed to be done under this Bill, to which I have asked your Lordships to give a second Reading.
On Question, Whether the word "now" shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 58; Not-Contents, 20.

CONTENTS.

Cave, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Churchill, V.

Hampton, L.

Cobham, V.

Hanworth, L.

Balfour, E. (L. President.)

Falkland, V.

Hawke, L.

Inchcape, V.

Hayter, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. Privy Seal)

Peel, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Younger of Leckie, V.

Lawrence, L.

Sutherland, D.

Leigh, L.

Wellington, D.

Annaly, L.

Lovat, L.

Banbury of Southam, L.

Meldrum, L. (M. Huntly.)

Airlie, E.

Biddulph, L.

Merrivale, L.

Clarendon, E.

Bledisloe, L.

Merthyr, L.

Cranbrook, E.

Carew, L.

Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

Harewood, E.

Cranworth. L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Crawshaw, L.

Raglan, L.

Mayo, E.

Danesfort. L.

Saltoun, L.

Midleton, E.

Desart, L. (E. Desart.)

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Morton, E.

Desborough, L.

Onslow, E.

Dynevor, L.

Suffield, L.

Plymouth, E. [Teller.]

Elphinstone, L.

Sumner, L.

Yarborough, E.

Faringdon, L.

Tweeddale, L. (M. Tweeddale.)

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Bertie of Thame, V.

Glenarthur, L.

Wharton, L.

Wittenham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Beauchamp, E.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Lamington, L.

De La Warr, E. [Teller.]

Cawley, L.

Muir Mackenzie, L.

Charnwood, L.

Olivier, L.

Allendale, V.

Clwyd, L.

Parmoor, L.

Haldane, V.

Farrer, L.

Phillimore, L.

Gainford, L. [Teller.]

Sandhurst, L.

Arnold, L.

Hemphill, L.

Stanmore, L.

Thomson, L.

COLONIAL PROBATES (PROTECTED STATES AND MANDATED TERRITORIES) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (CONWAY EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Conway; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Newcastle-under-Lyme; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NEW SARUM EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to New Sarum; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WOKINGHAM EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Wokingham; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at six o'clock.

FLEETWOOD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 22nd of February and the 17th of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL
Committed for Tuesday next.
THORNE COLLIERY RAILWAY AND WHARF BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: The Orders made on the 15th and 17th of March last discharged: Ordered, That the Bill be not further proceeded with.
CHELSEA BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL.
Committed for Tuesday next.
THE LATE EMPEROR OF JAPAN.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that he had received from the Foreign Office a report of a resolution passed unanimously in both Chambers of the Japanese Diet expressing the thanks of the two Chambers for the sincere sympathy shown by the Houses of Parliament on the occasion of the death of the Emperor of Japan.