Sitting of 11 July 1927

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Bristol Water Bill,
Smethwick Corporation Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Liverpool Corporation Bill [Lords],
As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Royal Albert Hall Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Bury Estate Bill [Lords],
Scarborough Gas Company (Consolidation) Bill [Lords],
Read a Second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS,
  INDIA.

    PROVINCIAL SERVICE OFFICERS (PROPORTIONATE PENSIONS).
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, now that orders have been issued by certain of the local governments extending to certain of the provincial service officers of non-Asiatic domicile some of the concessions recommended in the Lee Commission Report, the question of the extension of the concessions to include the right to retire on proportionate pension will be considered?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Earl Winterton): My Noble Friend is not prepared to extend the right to retire on proportionate pension beyond the all-India services to
    1716
    whom the premature retirement rules apply, but he has directed the Government of India to notify local governments that he will be prepared to consider on their merits, as cases falling outside the rules, applications for permission to retire prematurely from officers serving under local governments who either (1) were appointed by the Secretary of State in Council or (2) were appointed by a subordinate authority but in the local government's opinion are deserving of special consideration.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Am I right in thinking that certain of these officers who have had the other concession will now have the right to apply for this further concession?
    Earl WINTERTON: I am not quite sure about that. This concession will bring within its ambit all those whom the Secretary of State thinks should receive it.

    ENGINEER OFFICERS (EUROPEANS).
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will consider extending the concessions recommended in the Lee Commission Report to European officers of the Indian service of engineers recruited in India, seeing that the conditions under which they accepted service as statutory natives of India have entirely changed, placing them at a great disadvantage with officers of the same service recruited in England; and, seeing that these officers are European British subjects as defined in Indian law, that their habits of life and standard of living and educational expenses are the same as those of European officers otherwise recruited, and that the acceptance of the position of statutory natives of India was obtained from them when they were minors, with consequent doubt as to the legal validity attaching thereto?
    Earl WINTERTON: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) on 4th May, 1925. Whatever the facts as regards their declaration of Indian domicile it would not be reasonable that these officers should retain the benefits obtained by making it and acquire others by its revocation. I would

    1717
    remind the hon. Member that this class of officer benefited to the extent of Rs.75 per mensem by the absorption of technical pay in basic pay recommended by the Lee Commission.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: While I have not before me the answer referred to, may I ask whether the Secretary of State has considered the position as between these officers and Indians in the same service, in view of the peculiar position now arising that European officers having an Indian domicile get worse conditions than Indians?
    Earl WINTERTON: Yes. It is explained in an answer given to a question by the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Herbert Williams) that
    "These officers obtained their appointments by claiming to be of Indian domicile, and thereby are not entitled to the overseas pay given to officers of European domicile."
    It must be remembered that they obtained these appointments by claiming Indian domicile; unless they had claimed Indian domicile, and their claim had been accepted, they might never have been able to enter the service at all.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: Am I correct in thinking that the declaration accepting Indian domicile was made in many cases when many of these applicants were minors?
    Earl WINTERTON: However that may be they have obtained directly, advantages from it, which they could not have obtained from the service had they not made that declaration.

    COMMUNAL RIOTS, NADIA, BENGAL.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any information as to the communal riots at Nadia, in Bengal; and whether these riots are political or religious in origin?
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any information to give the House regarding the reported communal riots in the Nadia district of Bengal?
    Earl WINTERTON: I will, with the permission of the hon. Members, circulate
    1718
    in the OFFICIAL REPORT a Report made by the Government of Bengal.
    Colonel DAY: Can the Noble Lord say whether any people were killed in these riots?
    Earl WINTERTON: The Report is rather long. The trouble began by a large party of Mohammedans making an attack on a Hindu village. One on either side appears to have been killed. Other attacks took place, and there were wounded on both sides. One person is reported missing.
    Following is the report:
    "Communal riots occurred in some villages of the Meherpur sub-division of Nadia district on the 3rd July. The trouble began by a large party of Mohammedans, mostly from the Murshidabad district, making an attack on a Hindu village, wherein one on either side is believed to have been killed. The attackers withdrew, and Hindus of neighbouring villages attacked Mohammedan co-villagers, burning 20 houses and the mosque. There were some wounded on both sides. Meanwhile, the first party of Mohammedans burnt a house in a third village, and caused gunshot wounds to four persons. The same night, one Hindu was murdered by an unknown Mohammedan in a fourth village, where, on the morning of the 4th, some cowherds were assaulted, of whom one is missing. The sub-divisional officer reached the disturbed area early on the afternoon of the 3rd. The magistrate and superintendent of police, with a small armed force, arrived on or about the afternoon of the 4th, after delay due to difficulties of communication.
    The magistrate found all quiet on his arrival, and returned to headquarters at night. Armed reinforcements were sent on the 5th. Inquiries are proceeding."

    CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the nature of certain American films that are being shown in India; and what steps are being taken to prevent such films being shown?
    Earl WINTERTON: The Government of India were asked, by a despatch dated 31st March last, to give their attention to the whole question of the censorship of films shown in India and particularly to the question of the suitability or unsuitability of films of Western, especially of American, production for exhibition in India. The Government of India's reply

    1719
    is awaited; and I have no information as to what steps have as yet been taken to strengthen the existing system of censorship.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the Noble Lord aware that public opinion is very seriously disturbed in India over the harm which is done by these undesirable films?
    Earl WINTERTON: Yes, but that disturbance is not greater than the disturbance caused in this country. The problem is an exceedingly difficult one, and it is to find an efficient form of censorship for films.
    Colonel DAY: Is the Noble Lord aware that the last film banned was a British film and not an American film?
    Earl WINTERTON: I do not know that, but, at any rate, it was an undesirable film.

    SEAMEN'S WAGES.
    Mr. KELLYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the Resolution of the Indian Seamen's Union asking the Government of India to appoint a Board consisting of an equal number of representatives of employers and employees to settle the wages of seamen from time to time; and whether the Government of India propose to take any action on these lines or have given consideration to any such proposal?
    Earl WINTERTON: I have not seen the Resolution referred to.
    Mr. KELLY: In view of the favour with which conciliation has been received in this country, will the Noble Lord use his best endeavour to have it operated in India?
    Earl WINTERTON: It is purely a matter for the Indian Government.

    MR. ANUJA CHARAN SEN GUPTA (PROSECUTION).
    Mr. KELLYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to a case in the Calcutta High Court, brought against Mr. Anuja Charan Sen Gupta, editor of "Hindu Sangha," a vernacular weekly
    1720
    newspaper, who had been convicted of sedition by the Chief Presidency Magistrate and fined Rs.250; whether he is aware that the High Court Judges gave it as their opinion that with one exception the points raised were of little importance, and that, while finding the editor technically guilty, they remarked that the Government would have been well advised in treating the matter with the contempt it deserved; and whether the Secretary of State and the Government of India will give instructions that such utterances in obscure newspapers shall not in future be magnified into subjects suitable for prosecution under charges of sedition?
    Earl WINTERTON: I have seen a report in the Press of the appeals brought by the editor of the "Hindu Sangha" against two convictions by the Chief Presidency Magistrate. Both convictions were upheld by the High Court, though in regard to one of them one of the Judges expressed opinions much as stated in the hon. Member's question. As regards the last part of the question, my Noble Friend is not prepared to interfere with the discretion of the local authorities.
    Mr. KELLY: Will the Noble Lord give consideration to the fact that it is a danger and not an advantage to this country to magnify what are called offences?
    Earl WINTERTON: I do not admit for a moment that these offences have been magnified. The question is purely one within the competence of the local Government.

    CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (BRITISH TERRITORY).
    Sir ROBERT THOMASasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is prepared to take action to prohibit the exhibition in Empire territory of undesirable cinematograph films which tend to lower the white races in the eyes of the native peoples?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Southwark Central (Colonel Day) on the 30th of May, and to the view I expressed in regard

    1721
    to censorship in my reply to the hon. Member for Blackpool (Sir W. de Frece) on the 2nd of May.
    Colonel DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether anything further is being done in regard to censorship in our Colonies, because there are already complaints appearing in the Press.
    Mr. AMERY: I am not aware of anything further being done.

    CEYLON CONSTITUTION (ROYAL COMMISSION).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the Constitution in Ceylon; the personnel of that Commission and when it is likely to proceed to Ceylon?
    Mr. AMERY: In answer to the first part of the question, it is, as has already been stated, the intention to appoint a Special Commission to inquire into the working of the Constitution in Ceylon. As regards the second part, it is proposed that the Commission shall proceed to the Colony towards the end of the present year. The personnel has not yet been finally settled, but I have much pleasure in announcing that the Earl of Donoughmore has accepted my invitation to act as Chairman of the Commission.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    COLONIAL OFFICE OFFICERS (SERVICE OVERSEAS).
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the practice for officials at the Colonial Office to serve for a period in an administrative post overseas; and whether it is the practice for officials at the Colonial Office to visit periodically those parts of the Empire with which their work is concerned?
    Mr. AMERY: The seconding of Colonial Office officers for service overseas, as a general practice, presents serious administrative difficulties, but arrangements have recently been made for two officers to be attached to the staffs of the Governors of Ceylon and
    1722
    Nigeria for about two and three years, respectively, and I hope to be able to make similar arrangements in future for service overseas when suitable opportunities offer. Appointments to the administrative grade of the Colonial Office are now subject to the acceptance of liability for service overseas for one or more periods of not less than a year at a time. As regards the second part of the question, I am convinced of the value of such periodical visits. Several visits have already taken place during the past few years, and others are contemplated in the near future.

    TYPEWRITERS.
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs the number of typewriters used in the principal offices, respectively, of the Dominions Office, the Empire Marketing Board, and the Overseas Settlement Office, and the country of origin of these machines?
    Mr. AMERY: I have had inquiries made, and find that the typewriting machines at present in use are, for the most part, of foreign origin, apart from those in the offices of the Empire Marketing Board, most of which are of English make. I can, of course, assure the hon. and gallant Member that, so far as is consistent with the general policy of His Majesty's Government (as to which, I would refer him to an answer given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the 22nd February, 1926), I shall endeavour to arrange that the existing foreign machines are replaced, when the time comes, by machines of British make.
    Colonel DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any foreign machines have been bought since 1918?
    Mr. AMERY: I cannot be certain. My recollection is that a large stock has yet to be worked off.
    Colonel DAY: Is it the intention to buy British machines to replace them as they are worked off?
    Mr. AMERY: Yes, Sir. I think so.

    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE DEPARTMENTS (ANNUAL LEAVE).
    Captain ARTHUR EVANSasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the length of vacation annually granted to clerks of all grades in His Majesty's Customs and Excise Departments?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): The annual leave allowed to members of the different grades of the clerical class employed in the Customs and Excise Department is as follows:

    Annual leave. Days.

    Temporary and permanent unestablished clerks

    18

    Clerical class — junior grade

    24

    Clerical class — higher grade (and staff clerks)

    36

    Staff officers, senior staff officers, chief clerks and senior chief clerks

    36*

    *Rising to 48 days after 15 years' service in a grade entitled to 36 days.

    These allowances apply to members of the Customs and Excise Departmental Clerical Class as well as to those members of the general Civil Service Clerical Class employed in the Department.
    Captain A. EVANS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great dissatisfaction in business circles in the seaport of Cardiff at the lengthy holidays granted to the clerks in this Service: and does he not think, in view of the fact that such lengthy holidays are never granted in business, they should be curtailed in this Service?
    Mr. McNEILL: I am not aware of the dissatisfaction to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Do any people in the public service in fact take two months' holiday?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Has the hon. Member ever complained about the four or five

    Dominion.

    Expenditure from British Funds.

    Expenditure by Dominion Government.

    Total Cost.

    Number of Migrants.

    £

    £

    £

    Australia

    …

    …

    …

    358,391

    356,781

    715,172

    31,638

    Canada

    …

    …

    …

    214,904

    102,833

    317,737

    19,573

    New Zealand

    …

    …

    …

    127,826

    136,764

    264,590

    11,292

    Total

    …

    …

    …

    701,121

    596,378

    1,297,499

    62,503

    A portion of the expenditure from British funds is in connection with schemes under which part of the cost
    months' holiday which he takes from Parliament during the year?

    EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what were the figures of emigrants from Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Dominions for the year ending 31st March, 1927, showing the Dominions in the order of the number of emigrants, and giving in each case the total cost, and the corresponding figures for Scotland and the proportion of the expense met from British funds and from the Dominions respectively?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): As the reply contains a number of figures in tabulated form, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Will these figures show the gross emigration?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I am not sure.
    Following is the reply:
    I assume that the hon. Member refers to the cost of passages. The following statement gives the number of migrants from the United Kingdom who received assistance under the Empire Settlement Act towards the cost of proceeding to their destination in the Dominions during the year ended 31st March, 1927, and the expenditure incurred by the respective Governments, so far as can at present be ascertained. No separate records are available as regards migrants from Scotland.
    is borne by private organisations. Expenditure by the Australian and New Zealand Governments on rail fares of

    1725
    migrants from the port of arrival to destination is not definitely known and is only approximate.
    In the case of Canada part of the expenditure from British funds is equated by the Dominion Government's expenditure on reception and settlement.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view or the shortage of women in various parts of the Empire, he will institute inquiries in order to ascertain in what parts they are most required, what occupations are open to them, and what safeguards exist for their protection, both on the journey out and after arrival; and whether he will publish the information in easily accessible form?
    Mr. AMERY: Information upon all these points is contained in handbooks published free of charge by the Oversea Settlement Committee which have a wide circulation. With the hon. Member's permission, I will cause copies of these publications to be forwarded to him.

    SOUTHERN RHODESIA (TRADE UNIONS).
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he is aware that the natives of Southern Rhodesia have been prevented from organising themselves in a trade union, and that punitive measures have been taken against a native, Mr. Robert Sambo, who endeavoured to form a branch of the Industrial and Commercial Workers' Union of South Africa; whether, in view of Article 41 of the Southern Rhodesia constitution, letters patent, which lays down that, with certain exceptions, no disabilities or restrictions not equally applying to persons of European descent shall, without the previous consent of the High Commissioner, be imposed upon natives, he can say whether such consent was obtained; and whether he can give any information on the matter?
    Mr. AMERY: I have no information which enables me to answer the hon. Member's questions.
    Mr. BAKER: Will the right hon. Gentleman cause inquiries to be made with a view to removing what appears to be a serious grievance?
    Mr. AMERY: I will look into the matter. The hon. Member is, of course, aware that Southern Rhodesia is a country possessing responsible self-government, and that it is only in matters affecting the position of the natives that the special reservations enjoyed by the High Commissioner would be exercised.
    Mr. BAKER: Surely this is a matter of the most serious moment to the natives, and it is unsatisfactory that an organisation which is allowed freely to operate within the Union should be barred across the border?
    Mr. AMERY: The conditions are not identical, but I will look into the matter. I can give no absolute assurance.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is it not the fact that when the natives were asked to form a trade union they inquired what it was; and that when they were told that it was an organisation against the "bosses," they replied, "Why. They are the best friends we have. They give us a job."

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BRITISH FILM INDUSTRY.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, as a result of the Imperial Conference, any legislation has been passed or initiated by the Dominion Governments for the purpose of stimulating the production of British cinematograph films?
    Mr. AMERY: So far as I am aware, no legislation on this subject has yet been passed in any of the Dominions, except in the State of Victoria, where an Act has recently been passed under which provision is made for the exhibition of a minimum length of film produced within the Empire (i.e., 2,000 feet, of which at least 1,000 feet must have been produced in Australia) at any exhibition of cinematograph films. I may observe that the Report of the Commonwealth of Australia Film Censors for the year 1926 contains the following expression of opinion:
    "It would not be wise, it seems to us, to initiate legislation here until the House of Commons has dealt with the situation at home."
    Colonel DAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this legislation embodies blind and block bookings schemes which are to operate in this country?
    Mr. AMERY: I am not sure. I must ask for notice of that question.

    CHINA.
    Mr. TREVELYANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether his attention has been called to the figures compiled by the United States Commerce Department, showing that United States trade with China has advanced 3 per cent. in the first four months of this year, while British trade has declined by 17 per cent. and Japanese by 25 per cent.; and whether he has any means of verifying or correcting these figures?
    Mr. WELLOCKasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he can give figures showing the amount of trade carried on between China and the United States of America, and Japan and Great Britain, respectively, during the first four months of the present year and for the same period of last year?
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): As the reply involves a table of figures, I trust that the right hon. Member and the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Mr. Wellock) will permit me to circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The figures referred to appear to relate to the first quarter of 1927. For that period, as compared with the corresponding period in 1926, the totals of import and export trade with China for the three countries named were respectively:

    —

    First Quarter1926.

    First Quarter 1927.

    Increase or decrease %

    United Kingdom—million £

    10·37

    8·27

    - 20

    Japan—million yen

    281·5

    212·3

    - 25

    United States—million $

    74·3

    80·1

    + 8

    For the first four months of 1927 the figures of trade between the United States and China were:

    —

    Jan.-April. 1926.

    Jan.-April. 1927.

    Increase %.

    million $

    …

    …

    101·1

    103·8

    3

    Comparative figures are not available for the United Kingdom and Japan.

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he is aware that various trades are dissatisfied with the allocation of exhibits of their types of manufactures to the Birmingham section of the British Industries Fair; and whether he is investigating their representations with a view to meeting them?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am not aware that any trades are dissatisfied for the reasons indicated by my hon. Friend. In two cases transfers from one section of the Fair to the other have recently been arranged at the request of the exhibitors concerned. I have received no further request for such transfers, but I will be very glad to give consideration to any case which my hon. Friend may desire to bring to my notice.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Can the hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the exhibit of saddlery?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am glad of this opportunity to say that we shall welcome exhibits of saddlery at the British Industries Fair at the White City, and if the hon. Member will use his influence and get firms to send in saddlery goods, I will make it my business to see that they are properly shown.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: If it is laid down rigidly that Birmingham is to be the only provincial centre for this fair, will not other centres naturally be dissatisfied?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I do not agree with the hon. and gallant Member's premises. It is not laid down for all time that Birmingham is to be the only exhibiting centre. Any city can hold an exhibition if it likes to do so.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: That is an announcement of great moment and will be received with great satisfaction.
    Mr. KELLY: May I ask if the allocation is made by the officers of the Department, or is there a committee of exhibitors who have some voice in the matter?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Does the hon. Member refer to Birmingham or London?
    Mr. KELLY: Both.
    Mr. SAMUEL: There is a committee of exhibitors, and we do the best we can to work hand in hand with them.
    Colonel DAY: Has any allocation been made for an exhibit of British typewriters in either of these fairs?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Most certainly. There was last year a big exhibit of British typewriters in the London fair, and the hon. Member should have known that a great deal of trade resulted from it.

    MEAT SUPPLIES.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, in consequence of an agreement between eight great British and Continental meat firms, who between them control a large percentage of our national supply, an early rise in the price of chilled meat is anticipated; and whether, in view of this, the Government will set up a Committee of Inquiry into the position of the meat trade?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): My attention has been drawn to reports that an agreement is likely to be reached between the large meat-importing firms as to the quota to be allotted to each for chilled beef imports from South America. The Food Council are at the moment engaged on an inquiry into retail meat prices and profit margins, and if, as a result of the agreement, any considerable increase in retail prices occurs, the Council will no doubt give the matter careful consideration.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Will the hon. Gentleman take into consideration the desirability of withdrawing the embargo on fresh meat from the Argentine via Zeebrugge?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: That is not a matter which I can answer.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is it not most undesirable that there should be these Trusts and Combines in restraint of trade, and will the hon. Gentleman consider the promotion of legislation to deal with them?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: That does not arise out of the question. The matter the hon. Member referred to is under consideration now by the Food Council.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Am I not entitled to an answer to my supplementary question? Surely the importation of fresh meat from abroad affects prices in this country; and am I not entitled to ask whether he will take this question into consideration?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member did ask that question, but I have no power to compel an answer. I should advise the hon. Member to put a question to the Minister of Agriculture who, I think, is responsible for the matter.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Would it not be better if the hon. Gentleman would pay more attention to see that we give a preference to Australia and not to the Argentine, so far as imported meat is concerned?

    COAL MINING INDUSTRY (YORKSHIRE).
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines what was the output per man-shift worked at the coalface in the Yorkshire area for each ascertainment period since January, 1927?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox): The average output of coal per man-shift worked at the coalface in Yorkshire was as follows:

    Cwts.

    January

    …

    …

    …

    55

    February

    …

    …

    …

    56

    March

    …

    …

    …

    57

    April

    …

    …

    …

    56

    Mr. WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what that increase represents compared with the output per person for 1925 and 1926?
    Colonel LANE FOX: Yes, if the hon. Member will put a question down.
    Mr. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines what percentage on basis rates has been paid to miners in Yorkshire for each period covered by ascertainments since December, 1926, to the present time?
    Colonel LANE FOX: As the information asked for involves a tabular statement, I will circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: May I ask if the tabulated statement is any longer than the statement he gave in reply to the last question?

    PERCENTAGE on basis rates payable to Miners in Yorkshire from December, 1926, to July, 1927.

    Month.

    Underground Workers.

    Surface Workers.

    South and West Yorkshire.

    South Yorkshire.

    West Yorkshire.

    Eastern Sub-Division.

    Western Sub-Division.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    December,1926

    …

    …

    …

    46·67

    46·67

    45·00

    41·67

    January,1927

    …

    …

    …

    46·67

    46·67

    45·00

    41·67

    February, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    46·67

    46·67

    45·00

    41·67

    March, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    61·81

    61·81

    60·14

    56·81

    April, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    51·08

    51·08

    49·41

    46·08

    May, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    41·71

    41·71

    40·44

    36·71

    June, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    36·00*

    36·00*

    34·33*

    31·00*

    July, 1927

    …

    …

    …

    36·00*

    36·00*

    34·33*

    31·00*

    *Minimum.

    Mr. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines what was the average pit-head price for coal in Yorkshire for each ascertainment period from January, 1927, to the latest date?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The average pithead proceeds from coal disposed of commercially in Yorkshire were as follow:

    Per ton.

    s.

    d.

    January

    …

    …

    …

    18

    11

    February

    …

    …

    …

    18

    0

    March

    …

    …

    …

    16

    8

    April

    …

    …

    …

    15

    11

    Mr. WILLIAMS: Has the right hon. Gentleman obtained figures for the last two months which show the ups and downs of the prices?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I have given the hon. Member the last figures that I have.
    Colonel LANE FOX: The hon. Member will be able to see it. It is very interesting.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding the persistent increase in the output per man per shift, there is a persistent decrease in the amount of wages received; and does he intend to do anything to put that matter right?
    Colonel LANE FOX: That has no reference to the question on the Paper.
    Following is the statement:
    Mr. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether the Government are taking any steps to carry out the suggestion of the Coal Commission, that the one way of solving the coal problem is to reorganise selling prices?
    Colonel LANE FOX: That is a subject on which the hon. Member can make an eloquent speech to-morrow if he desires.

    NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Minister of Health if his Department has in any cases, and, if so, in how many, accepted liability for pension applications although sent in after the expiration of the seven-years' limit?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley): I have been asked to reply. Grants have been made in about a hundred cases of the kind referred to.

    SINGAPORE NAVAL BASE.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the total amount so far expended in connection with the Singapore naval base?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): The total expenditure up to the 30th June is about £480,000.

    DISARMAMENT (CONFERENCES).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many conferences at which His Majesty's Government was represented for the reduction or regulation of armaments other than the armaments, of ex-enemy Powers have taken place since the end of the War; and where and on what dates have they been held?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): His Majesty's Government have been represented at the following conferences of the nature described in the hon. and gallant Member's question: the Washington Conference on Limitation of Armament which sat from November, 1921, to February, 1922; the Preparatory Commission for the Disarmament Conference at Geneva in May and September, 1926, and in March and April, 1927; and the present Three-Power Conference at Geneva for the Limitation of Naval Armaments.

    LICENSING LAWS.
    Mr. REMERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he proposes to make a statement as to the Government's policy on the existing anomalies in the licensing laws?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Captain Hacking): My right hon. Friend is not at present in a position to make any statement on this subject.
    Mr. REMER: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the Prime Minister, in a public letter, stated that he would give an answer to this question as soon as the Southborough Committee had reported? Is he aware that the Southborough Committee reported nearly two months ago? If I put down a question again this day week, would an answer be given?
    Captain HACKING: No, Sir; I cannot make any definite promise on behalf of my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend knows that it is a very complicated question. It may be that further inquiry is necessary and even that further legislation is necessary. In these circumstances, I think my right hon. Friend must have time for full consideration.
    Mr. REMER: Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that, as stated, it is two months since the Committee reported, and is it not time that some decision was given on the matter?
    Captain HACKING: I understood my hon. Friend to say that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave that pledge. I am afraid I cannot add anything to what he said.

    BETTING DUTY.
    Colonel DAYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the number of applications that have been refused to persons for certificates to carry on business as bookmakers?
    Mr. R. McNElLL: I am not aware that there have been any such refusals.
    Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only a fortnight ago a man was prosecuted by the Inland Revenue authorities and fined £10 for not having a licence, although he had applied and was refused a licence?
    Mr. McNEILL: I think I know the case to which the hon. Member refers, but the facts are not at all at variance with the answer I have given. The man was told that if he took out a certificate it would not enable him to make illegal bets.
    Colonel DAY: Is it not a fact that that is a refusal, on behalf of the authorities, of a bookmaker's licence?
    Mr. McNEILL: No, it is not. He was not refused a licence, but was told that his licence would not enable him to carry on illegal betting.

    SOLAR ECLIPSE (REPORT).
    Colonel DAYasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the number of photographs that were taken of the eclipse by the officials of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich; the viewpoint from which these photographs were taken; what was the cost; and when the examination of the photographs and other data of the eclipse will be completed?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I have been asked to reply. Three photographs were taken from a site near Giggleswick School. The total cost was £150. The examination of the photographs will be completed in time for a full report to be sent to the Royal Astronomical Society in the autumn.
    Colonel DAY: Will the full report also be published, so that all who are interested in this subject can have an opportunity of seeing it?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: No doubt there will be an ample opportunity of the public seeing the report.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Will my hon. and gallant Friend arrange for the Astronomer Royal to come here and give a short account of the eclipse in a room upstairs?

    CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS ACT.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Prime Minister whether the Government has reached any decision regarding the need for legislation amending the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act; and what, in that case, its intentions are?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I have been asked to reply. Up to the present, it has not been found necessary to consider the question of amending the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, though note has been taken of some points of detail requiring consideration when the time comes.
    Mr. BATEY: Are we to understand that the Government have agreed to allow the amending Bill, which is down for Second Reading, to go through?
    Sir K. WOOD: That is another matter, with which I have no concern.

    FIGHTING SERVICES (FOOD CONTRACTS).
    Mr. LAMB (for Mr. HURD)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many meat and other food contracts, and of what value, have been given to British home producers following upon the representations of the Empire Marketing Board to the Army, Navy and Air Force Departments?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think that my hon. Friend may perhaps have misunderstood the reply given to his question on this subject on the 30th June. The policy of His Majesty's Government in Great Britain in this matter is as stated by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the 20th June. No question, therefore, arises of any action being taken, as the result of representations made by the Empire Marketing Board, which would not otherwise have been taken by the Departments concerned.
    Mr. LAMB (for Mr. HURD)asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what was paid last year for meat for the Army, Navy and Air Force, distinguishing between British home produce, British overseas Empire produce, and foreign produce, respectively?
    Mr. McNEILL: I am informed that practically the whole of the meat purchased for the Army and Air Force last year was British overseas Empire produce. Its value, including the value of preserved meat, was approximately £921,000. This amount does not include certain foreign stations where contracts are made locally and as to which the information is not available, nor home stations the requirements of which are less than 100 lbs. a day. The value of these small home purchases is estimated at about £16,000, of which approximately one-half was for home-killed meat. In the case of the Navy, a total sum of £392,000 was paid last year at home and abroad. So far as can be calculated, this amount was

    1737
    made up of British home produce, £3,300; British overseas Empire produce, £359,000, and foreign produce, £29,700.
    Lieut. - Colonel ACLAND - TROYTE: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with these Departments to see that they use more home-grown meat?
    Mr. LAMB (for Mr. HURD)asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what was the British home, as distinct from the British overseas Empire, proportion of the £2,894,000 spent upon meat for the Army, Navy and Air Force during the last three years?
    Mr. McNEILL: I am informed that the portion of the sum of £2,894,000 representing meat purchased for the Army and Air Force is £2,448,000. The whole of the latter sum was for the purchase of meat from the British overseas Empire. As stated in the previous reply, the above amounts do not include home stations at which requirements are less than 100 lbs. a day or certain foreign stations where contracts are made locally. At these smaller home stations the total value of home-killed meat obtained is roughly estimated to have been about £25,000. In the case of the Navy, the amount spent on British home-produced meat during the period mentioned is estimated at £10,900.

    UNEMPLOYMENT (SEAMEN).
    Mr. STEPHENasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of British seamen at present unemployed; the number of foreign seamen now serving on British ships registered in British ports; and the corresponding figures for 1924?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The answer is somewhat long and includes a table of figures. I propose, therefore, with the concurrence of the hon. Member, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Do the figures show an increase or a decrease?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: They show an increase here and a decrease there. I would require to read the whole answer in order to satisfy the hon. Member.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Are there not only four sets of figures?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I can perhaps give it shortly. There are more than four figures. They are for the April-June quarter of 1927.

    British employed other than Asiatics and Africans: 1924, 134,148; 1927, 143,202. That is an increase.

    Foreigners employed other than Asiatics and Africans: 1924, 4,026; 1927, 3,640. That is a decrease.

    Asiatics and Africans employed, British and foreign: 1924, 3,511; 1927, 3,741. That is an increase.

    Following is the answer:
    There are no particulars as to the number of seamen unemployed; but, according to the figures published by the Ministry of Labour, the number of insured persons in shipping service recorded as unemployed at the end of May, 1927, was 20,344 compared with 19,763 at the corresponding date in 1924.
    Figures showing the numbers of British and foreign seamen employed at the present time in British ships are not available; but the following table shows the numbers engaged at Mercantile Marine offices in Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the three months ended 30th June in 1924 and 1927 respectively. These figures relate to engagements and not to individual seamen; if a person were engaged twice during the period he would be counted twice in the total. The figures for 1927 are provisional.

    April-June Quarter.

    Seamen engaged.

    1924.

    1927.

    British other than Asiatics and Africans

    134,148

    143,202

    Foreigners other than Asiatics and Africans

    4,026

    3,640

    Asiatics and Africans, British and foreign

    3,511

    3,741

    Total

    141,685

    150,583

    RENT RESTRICTIONS ACT.
    Mr. R. MORRISON (for Mr. W. THORNE)asked the Minister of Health (1) if he has received a copy of the resolution passed at a delegate meeting of the Birmingham and District Tenants' Federation, held in Digbeth

    1739
    Institute on 2nd July; if he is aware that they are asking for the renewal of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restriction Act of 1920, and the prohibition of payment or acceptance of key money in cases of change of tenancy; and if he intends taking any action in the matter;
    (2) if he has received a detailed statement from the Birmingham and District Tenants' Federation, giving the list of a few decontrolled houses in Birmingham, showing the way in which the rent has been increased over pre-War rents for decontrolled houses; if he is aware that in some cases the rent has been increased over 100 per cent.; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
    Sir K. WOOD: With the hon. Member's permission, I will answer these questions together. My right hon. Friend cannot find that he has received a copy of the resolution in question, and as regards continuance or amendment of the Rent Restrictions Act, he would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 6th instant to a question by the hon. Member for Torquay (Commander Williams).

    CHINA (BRITISH TROOPS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the First Cameronians, of the Shanghai Defence Force, on their arrival in Hong Kong on the 6th of March last, were sent to the Sun-Wai camp in Fanling and were kept there for three weeks in great discomfort, owing to the rainy season and the fact that their tents were frequently flooded out; why proper accommodation was not provided for these troops; and whether arrangements will be made to accommodate all British troops in China in suitable buildings?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): When it was decided to despatch the Shanghai Defence Force to China immediate steps were taken to prepare adequate accommodation for the troops, but as barracks are only maintained at military stations for the permanent garrison, improvised arrangements were necessary to deal at short notice with
    1740
    the large influx of troops into Hong Kong. The Cameronians were accordingly placed temporarily under canvas.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question as to whether accommodation has now been provided?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: I believe that to be so; but I would not like to say that there was no unit still in temporary accommodation.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: In view of the service for which these troops were ostensibly sent to China, surely we can rely on the foreign communities there to see that the troops are provided with suitable buildings in the rainy season?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: As I told the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I believe they are now all under cover and not under canvas, but I am not absolutely sure.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War whether, when further reductions are found possible in the Shanghai defence force and other expeditionary forces in China, Section A reservists will be sent home first?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am not in a position to state on what basis further reductions in the Shanghai defence force will be made, should opportunity occur. But I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my statement on 28th June that the contract with the reservists will be carried out strictly.

    HOUSE OF LORDS.
    Sir JOHN SIMONasked the Prime Minister whether he will cause to be circulated as a White Paper the Government proposals for the reform of the House of Lords which the Government offers for criticism and ventilation in Parliament and the country?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I would refer the right hon. and learned Member to the answer which I gave on the 30th June in reply to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall).
    Sir J. SIMON: Was not that before the Debate in this House, and, that Debate having taken place, is it not a reasonable request—since the Prime Minister has now said that he wishes these proposals to be ventilated and criticized—that we should have these matters in a form in which they can be reproduced?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir; I would rather take the opposite, view—that the Debate has given the information required.

    PARLIAMENT ACT (MONEY BILLS).
    Sir J. SIMONasked the Prime Minister whether he will, for the information of the House, grant a Return containing a list of the Bills which have been certified by Mr. Speaker or his predecessor as Money Bills under the Parliament Act, and a list of the Finance Bills which the Speaker has not so certified?
    The PRIME MINISTER: If the right hon. and learned Member will move for a Return, I shall be happy to arrange for it to be supplied.
    Sir J. SIMON: I will do so.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: May I ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any agreement has been reached with the Chinese authorities regarding the British Concession at Tientsin and, if not, whether any negotiations are at present in progress?
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is a Question on the Paper to that effect in the name of the hon. Member, but he was not present to ask it.
    Mr. WARDLAW-MILNE: On a point of Order. That Question was not asked because three previous Questions stood in my name. Is is not perfectly in order to ask this Question now?
    Mr. SPEAKER: No. I see the hon. Member had four Questions on the Paper. He is not entitled to put his
    1742
    fourth Question in this way. If this is important he should have taken one of the others off the Paper.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question proposed:
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the Clock, and that the proceedings on other Government Business be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."
Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Prime Minister inform the House what he intends to take to-night under this Motion?
The PRIME MINISTER: This is a Motion which is customary at this period of the Session and is put down partly in order that, in the event of the Debate ending before 11 o'clock, Government business may be proceeded with which could not be done on a Supply day without a Motion of this kind. The portion of the Motion which refers to taking business after 11 o'clock is for the purpose of making progress with small Orders, and it is usual when the Question is asked, to advise the House of what those small Orders are to be. It is proposed, if this Motion be carried, to take these three Orders after 11 o'clock:

Navy and Air Expenditure, 1925–26—Committee.

The Committee stage of the Post Office (Sites) Bill.

The Report and Third Reading of the Royal Naval Reserve Bill.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Should not this be in the form of two Motions? Do not the two parts deal with different matters?
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think this Motion is similar to another Motion on which such a claim as that has been made and in the case of which I have always granted that claim. There is another Motion which under the Standing Orders ought to be put as two Motions, but this Motion is different and is not governed by the decision given in the other case.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 166; Noes, 56.

Division No. 256.]

AYES.

[3.27 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Frece, Sir Walter de

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Gates, Percy

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William

Ainsworth, Major Charles

Goff, Sir park

Penny, Frederick George

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Gower, Sir Robert

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Apsley, Lord

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Ramsden, E.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Rawson, Sir Cooper

Balniel, Lord

Hammersley, S. S.

Remer, J. R.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Hanbury, C.

Remnant, Sir James

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

Betterton, Henry B.

Hartington, Marquess of

Rice, Sir Frederick

Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

Haslam, Henry C.

Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

Blundell, F. N.

Hawke, John Anthony

Ropner, Major L.

Boothby, R. J. G.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

Salmon, Major I.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Brass, Captain W.

Hilton, Cecil

Sandeman, N. Stewart

Briscoe, Richard George

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Savery, S. S.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Buckingham, Sir H.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Huntingfield, Lord

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Hurd, Percy A.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Hurst, Gerald B.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Carver, Major W. H.

Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

Jacob, A. E.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Styles, Captain H. Walter

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

Knox, Sir Alfred

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Lamb, J. Q.

Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

Clayton, G. C.

Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Lister, Cunilffe-. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Cooper, A. Duff

Loder, J. de V.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Cope, Major William

Long, Major Eric

Watts, Dr. T.

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

White, Lieut. -Col. Sir G. Dalrymple

Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

MacIntyre, Ian

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Davies, Dr. Vernon

McLean, Major A.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George

Dixey, A. C.

Macquisten, F. A.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Drewe, C.

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Wise, Sir Fredric

Eden, Captain Anthony

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Womersley, W. J.

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Margesson, Capt. D.

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Ellis, R. G.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.)

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Worthington- Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Moore Sir Newton J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

Morrison, H. (Wilts. Salisbury)

Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir George

Fermoy, Lord

Nelson, Sir Frank

Hennessy.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

NOES.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Scrymgeour, E.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

Baker, Walter

Hore-Bellsha, Leslie

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Batey, Joseph

Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

Smith, H. B. Lees-(Keighley)

Brown, Ernest (Leith)

Kelly, W. T.

Smith, Bennie (Penistone)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Snell, Harry

Compton, Joseph

Kirkwood, D.

Stephen, Campbell

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lansbury, George

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Dalton, Hugh

Lawrence, Susan

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lowth, T.

Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

Day, Colonel Harry

Lunn, William

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Duncan, C.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Viant, S. P.

Gardner, J. P.

Mackinder, W.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Montague, Frederick

Wellock, Wilfred

Gosling, Harry

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Naylor, T. E.

Wright, W.

Groves, T.

Paling, W.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hardie, George D.

Ponsonby, Arthur

Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. B. Smith.

Harris, Percy A.

Potts, John S.

Ordered,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the Clock, and that the proceedings on other Government Business be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

STANDING ORDERS.
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:

1. "That, in the case of the Mersey Tunnel (Birkenhead Entrance, Etc.) Bill [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

2. "That, in the case of the London Squares and Enclosures (Preservation) (No. 2) Bill, the Standing Orders ought not to be dispensed with."

First Resolution agreed to.
Report to lie upon the Table.

ESTIMATES.
First Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [11th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1927.

(CLASS 2.)

  FOREIGN OFFICE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £117,673, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1998, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."— [NOTE: £95,000 has been voted on account.]
  Mr. PONSONBY: I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.
  I desire to make a general survey of the present condition of international affairs. In the ordinary course, this Debate would have been initiated by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, but, in the circumstances of which the Committee is aware, my right hon. Friend is unable to attend as regularly in this House as he would like. It therefore falls to me to bring to the notice of the Foreign Secretary and His Majesty's Government certain considerations which make us, on this side of the House, regard the present situation in Europe with some apprehension. Our general view is expressed in the Motion which is put on the Order Paper for some future date, and in case hon. Members may not have noticed it, I would like to read the terms of it to the Committee. The terms of this Motion are:
  "That this House views with apprehension the development of sectional alliances which lead to a growing tension between the nations of Europe, contribute to the sense of insecurity prevalent amongst the Governments, and indefinitely postpone any prospect of a substantial advance towards disarmament; convinced that peace can only be established on a permanent basis by a definite and open policy of fair dealing, conciliation, and respect for national rights, this House urges His Majesty's Government to abandon secret and sectional understandings which lead to jealousy and suspicion, to support at the Council and Assembly of the League of Nations the free discussion of
  1762
  national grievances that have an international significance, and to take a bold initiative towards the establishment of national security guaranteed by the League of Nations, the settlement of international disputes by compulsory arbitration, and a drastic limitation of armaments."
  The ground to be covered is necessarily very extensive, and I desire only to detach several points for special observation. The three main subjects into which I want to divide this discussion are the relationship between France and Germany, the relationships in South-Eastern Europe, and the present position of Russia. With regard to Germany and France, we in Parliament here are no longer able to consider the differences that may arise between those two great countries as a subject which is outside our purview and is no immediate concern of ours. Of course, international relations have always been our concern, but it becomes impossible for us now to adopt the attitude which we did in 1870, when there was, unfortunately, a conflict between France and Germany. That attitude on our part would no longer be possible. By the Pact of Locarno we have a very definite obligation. The relationship between those two countries is our immediate concern; we have to watch it with the greatest possible care, and, in the event of strained relations between those two nations and hostilities arising, we are in the very unenviable position, I think, of having to decide which is the aggressor and having to throw the forces of His Majesty on the opposite side. That is a tremendous commitment, and makes it very necessary that we here in Parliament should know very precisely all the ups and downs in the relations between those two countries.
  We have noticed within the last few weeks that, in spite of the Pact of Locarno, there has been a change in tone between those two nations, and M. Poincaré's speech, answered by Herr Stresemann's, made us feel that the effort made at Locarno had not really resulted in any definite renewal of friendship between the two nations. On the contrary, we were apprehensive that another period of strained relations might arise between them such as arose some years ago. We should like to ask the Foreign Secretary what is the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to the evacuation of the Rhineland? Are we following

  1763
  whatever the French Government desire on that point? Eight or nine years after the War is over, when the Pact of Locarno has been signed and a guarantee of the friendship between France and Germany has been made, are we refusing to allow the evacuation of the Rhineland by an armed foreign force larger than the force of the German Army which occupied it before the War? Or are we taking a policy of our own, and are we looking forward to encouraging the evacuation of the Rhineland and urging France to come to some decision upon it? I think it is very important that we should know whether we have got any policy, or whether we are simply saying "ditto" to France.
  Rumours are arising constantly all over Europe. Many of them may be without foundation, but we do not know, and without information we cannot deny them. The hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, presiding at a luncheon of the Foreign Press Conference the other day, said in a very excellent speech that it was not only what statesmen said and did, but that the interpretation put on it by the Press mattered just as much. Unfortunately, the Press all the world over finds that crises and scares and strained relations are more paying than statements with regard to peaceable relations. In this commercial age, when every newspaper wants to get the highest circulation, we have on the part of the Press of the world a desire to magnify differences, and I cannot say that we can look upon the Press as very hopeful for producing a peaceful atmosphere. However that may be, the only way in which we can refute comments and statements in newspapers which are not true is by having information before us here in the House of Commons. So long as we are kept ignorant we shall very likely be deluded by the Press. Whenever possible the Foreign Secretary should give us full information and allow us to have the true facts of the case.
  There have been comments and rumours that our policy with regard to the Rhineland is dependent on a settlement of the debt question between France and this country. Whether that is true I have no knowledge at all. If these two questions are not being dealt
  1764
  with side by side, are not interwoven, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will inform us this afternoon. I would also like to ask, before leaving Western Europe, whether the right hon. Gentleman noticed that M. Briand, in a statement issued to the Associated Press in the United States, made a very important pronouncement. In that statement M. Briand said:
  "France is willing publicly to engage, itself with the United States to put war as between the two countries outside the pale of law."
  That statement received far less attention than it deserved. It is a gesture for what Americans term "the outlawry of war." I should very much like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman observed it, whether he does not think there is a hopeful line of advance in that direction, and whether he is prepared to make a similar arrangement with the United States and with France for the outlawry of war, that is to say, agree that all disputes between the two countries shall be settled by arbitration, and that in no conceivable circumstances will they have recourse to the brutal, senseless and futile method of international war. Another cause for apprehension on our part with regard to Franco-German relations is the French Conscription Bill. These might have been described in times past as the domestic affairs of a foreign nation, in which we have no concern, but, as I said just now, circumstances have changed, and we have the very closest concern in every phase of the relationship between these two countries, and I think it is quite in order for us in Parliament to ask for very full information.
  With regard to South-Eastern Europe, which is always rather a hotbed of disputes, in that district we might regard the relationships between the Balkan States with more or less cool indifference were it not that here again we seem to have a commitment, or, if not a definite commitment, a relationship, which seems to make us specially interested. The Committee will have noticed during the last few years that of all the Governments in Europe the Government of Italy seems to have been singled out by His Majesty's Government for special favour. In September, 1926, the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary

  1765
  met Signor Mussolini at Leghorn, and they had a conversation. I am the very last person to object to Foreign Secretaries meeting one another and talking things over. I think an enormous amount can be done by personal contact in dispelling misunderstanding, but we must remember that this Government, in the very first week of their life in 1924, declared that they did not think it necessary to continue the practice adopted by the Labour Government of making public all commitmitments and agreements, whether verbal or in writing, with foreign Governments. We do not know whether we may be committed in any way in conversation; we do not know whether there may not be some implicit agreement of which we are ignorant, and therefore we have every right to be suspicious and to ask for more complete information. An official communiqué was issued after the Foreign Secretary visited Signor Mussolini, in which it was stated that the two statesmen had
  "examined the most important questions of the day and had confirmed the intimacy of the Anglo-Italian relations as well as the identity of the policy to be followed for the solution of the most important European problems."
  That shows a very close and amicable agreement and something that means mutual support in the policy to be pursued. That was in September, 1926. The Fascist Press during 1926 had not been referring to the Locarno Pact with the approval which the Foreign Secretary, I should think, had expected. The "Tribuna" referred to
  "The so-called spirit of Locarno as an expression of social democratic imbecility."
  The Facist Party Orders stated that:
  "The spirit of Locarno is evaporating with impressive rapidity. Soon nothing will remain but the faded label. … The whole of Europe is furiously arming."
  After the Foreign Secretary had had that interview, Signor Mussolini made a speech on the 27th of May, 1927, in which he said:
  "The spirit of Locarno has evaporated. Everybody is arming. Italy must arm. … Italy must be able to mobilise 5,000,000 men and to arm them … and our air force … must be so numerous that the surface of their wings must obscure the sun over their land."
  That is the expression of the policy of the country which has been singled out
  1766
  by the right hon. Gentleman and the Government. Not only does our Foreign Minister visit Italy, but other Cabinet Ministers visit Italy whenever they have a holiday, and they go off to see M. Mussolini. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to Italy, and the Fascist Press were especially delighted with him, and the "Corriere d'Italia" said:
  "Churchill had a better understanding of Fascism than many Fascists."
  This peculiarly close intimacy between our Government and the Government of Italy necessarily makes one watch the policy of Signor Mussolini, and the world has been watching it very closely in recent times. Whether it is the question of Albania or Yugo-Slavia, we see disputes arising; we see a more truculent attitude on the part of the Italian Government, and we know by this and other indications that our Government is on the side of Signor Mussolini. Therefore, I think we have good cause for regarding South Eastern Europe as being in anything but a peaceful condition at the present time, and we are rather doubtful whether the various differences among the nations of Eastern Europe are going to be amicably settled.
  I come now to the situation in North Eastern Europe. I do not want to go into all the reasons which have caused the rupture of diplomatic relations between this country and the Soviet Government. I do not want to distract the attention of the Committee on this occasion by referring to the rather turbulent and acrimonious Debates which have frequently arisen in regard to the question of the Soviet Government. I will only say that while our policy in dealing with the Soviet Government was dictated by domestic considerations—and I am afraid also by party considerations—the repercussions it has had throughout Europe are not fully realised by hon. Members of this House. In this very delicate condition of the relations between European Powers which year by year seem to get more difficult to handle, to come down clumsily and break one of the main threads was, of course, to throw a great deal of suspicion on our action, and it has caused perturbation among the Central Powers and the smaller nations and Europe as a whole. I do not think that the full effect of this clumsy bit of diplomacy

  1767
  has been realised. I believe there were a number of hon. Members opposite who expected that the French Government would do the same as we have done in regard to the Soviet Government, but the French Government are far too astute diplomatists to indulge in any elephantine diplomacy of this sort, and they would deal with such difficulties as they arose. The French Government would never think of doing anything so dangerous as to make a rupture between two great nations, thereby forcing the starting of rumours, which may be baseless but nevertheless have their effect upon the European situation.
  4.0 p.m.
  There can be no doubt at all as to the danger which which has been caused by this rupture of international relations. After all, the Russians have some justification for their fears. They remember how they were treated from 1917 to 1921, and they still think that a plot is being formed against them. I know the Foreign Secretary has repudiated any such idea, but the justification put forward by the Soviet Government to their own people seems sufficient for them to sound an alarm which is causing a great deal of trouble in Eastern Europe. Speeches on this subject have been made in this country which do not help. I see that the Home Secretary made a speech in which he said that the nations of Europe must unite together to stamp out Communism. If that be the opinion of hon. Members below the Gangway, then they cannot be surprised if the Russian Government consider that we are taking steps to unite the nations of the world to stamp out Bolshevism. They are perfectly justified, and if they seize every opportunity to do us a bad turn it is not surprising. The reason of the whole rupture came from us. We were in a position to disregard what was going on, and their propaganda and all the rest of it. It was grossly exaggerated, always with a view of tarring the party, for which I am speaking now, with the Communist brush. That was the object of the whole campaign. Let us fight our domestic party squabbles within these islands. For goodness sake, do not let us allow these absurdities to go out, and make trouble amongst the nations of Europe. That is what I mean—making
  1768
  into a first-class European question, something which does not deserve such treatment. I dare say there are several hon. Members who follow the foreign Press, and they will see how newspaper after newspaper is talking about the manœuvres we are making in order to surround Russia. Anyhow, none of us feel that this situation in Europe is peaceful. We do not see a peaceful prospect.
  Then we turn to the League of Nations. I have always been a supporter of the League of Nations—a real League of Nations—and I had hoped that by means of that body we should get international co-operation and open covenants openly arrived at. I had hoped it would have a unifying influence, and my hopes were never higher than they were in 1924, when my right hon. Friend went to Geneva. Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but the atmosphere in 1924, compared with the atmosphere to-day in Europe, is a very different thing. In 1924, the hopes of peace were high. In 1927 we see nothing but dissension, factions and acrimonious disputes between the nations of Europe. More than that, the League of Nations is being relegated into a back seat to deal with secondary problems. The real business goes on behind the scenes. During the meetings of the Council, in June, the "Times" said:
  "The Council met formally to-day and begins to deal with its agenda to-morrow, but, as is usual, its real work began in Paris and was continued in the train, to be elaborated in hotels and gardens, and, it is hoped, finally given concrete form in the Chancelleries of Europe. The League Council's chief usefulness lies in the fact that the formal questions to be debated, however important they may appear to the respective protagonists, really form the screen behind which the real work goes on."
  The League of Nations has become a screen, and in the drawing-rooms and gardens, and in the right hon. Gentleman's own hotel the real work is done. China, Albania, Jugo-Slavia—all the really crucial difficulties are never brought before the League. There is always some reason found for preventing the League dealing with them—"You must not strain the League, or it will break." The League is not going to break by straining; it is going to die of inanition, with not being given the work it ought to do. The confidence of the peoples of

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  Europe is being shaken in the League of Nations. The League does very excellent work in secondary matters, but whenever there is a vital matter between nations, a reason is always found for preventing the League from giving an opinion. On the contrary, we see sectional alliances growing up. And what is an alliance? It is always a war preparation. This new character which the League is taking on is causing a great deal of concern to its best friends.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but what are the new sectional alliances to which he alludes?
  Mr. PONSONBY: I am coming to that. This new character which the League is taking on is causing grave concern to its best friends. We find a grouping and a manœuvring between the various nations and States of Europe and the world. Instead of this unified action of the League, we are going back to the sectional and particular action. The Treaty of Locarno was concluded in October, 1925. I have got here—I am afraid it is not complete—a list of 12 Treaties that have been concluded since that date. There was a Treaty between Turkey and Russia; a Treaty between Turkey and France of "mutual neutrality"; a Treaty between France and Jugo-Slavia, which is initialled only, and is not yet registered; a Treaty between Poland and Rumania for a defensive alliance, supported by France; a Treaty between Russia and Germany of "mutual neutrality"; a Treaty between Italy and Spain of "amity and mutual neutrality," to which, I believe, secret clauses are attached; a Treaty between Italy and Rumania; a Treaty between Russia and Afghanistan of "neutrality"; a Treaty between Russia and Lithuania; the Treaty of Tirana between Italy and Albania; a Treaty between Italy and Germany of "arbitration and friendship," and a Treaty between Italy and Hungary. One will notice, by analysing this network of Treaties very closely, that there is a tendency to form groups, to a new orientation, to an attempt to make a policy of balance. You have France making a Treaty with Jugo-Slavia, Italy disputing with Jugo-Slavia, Turkey going on the side of
  1770
  France, Turkey combining with Afghanistan and Russia, and gradually these Treaties, these sectional alliances, all those old diplomatic methods which we hoped the League of Nations would sweep away, are bringing us back into the same sort of atmosphere, and a worse sort of atmosphere than that which existed before 1914.
  In an atmosphere of that sort, we cannot expect much in the way of disarmament, and the attempts that have been made at Geneva do not surprise us in their results. Eight years have passed since the members of the League of Nations solemnly recognised that the maintenance of peace requires the reduction of the national armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety and the enforcement by common action of international obligations, and here we are still with competition in armaments growing up, and, instead of what was expected, namely, an exchange of full and frank information with regard to armaments, each nation is still dependent on espionage for its information. And then they come together in the Preparatory Committee at Geneva, and there is issued the document which we have all been studying. To nobody who considers this document will it give hope of disarmament and peace. It shows us very clearly that this question has been tackled in the wrong way. It shows us very clearly that if you leave this question of disarmament in the hands of experts, you cannot possibly come to any sort of agreement. I do not blame the experts. Nobody ought to blame the experts. How can they find formulas which would be applicable to all the varying nations with all their varying circumstances? It is quite impossible, and this clearly shows how impossible it is.
  There are disputes and differences on every conceivable point. There is a very grave dispute between the nations who have conscription and those who have not about the limitation of trained reserves, a most technical and difficult subject. The difference is very natural, and agreement seems very far from being realised. There is the same difference with regard to naval and air effectives and as to whether naval armaments should be reduced in tonnage or classes; and no agreement has

  1771
  been arrived at as to how expenditure is to be limited. At the same time, we find that this Committee has not dealt at all with war material or the manufacture of armaments. The existing Convention on Traffic in Arms should, of course, be ratified, but it has not been, and the projected Convention on the Manufacture of Arms should be completed and ratified. But that is not mentioned. Then we get international supervision. There are objections to that. Should there be an international body which would go round and see whether the limitation of armaments is carried out? Each national naturally objects to any such method being adopted. Lord Cecil says that you must trust the good faith of nations. Really, it is misleading the world for statesmen to attempt in peace time to draw up regulations, the observance of which depends on moral obligations, knowing that when war is expected, those moral obligations never have, and never will be, observed. You cannot trust the good faith of nations if they are expecting war, and if they deem themselves to be in danger.
  These Regulations with regard to the restriction of armaments are not only waste of time, but they are deluding the people of Europe and the world into the idea that something is being done to abolish war. Nothing of the kind is being done. The experts go out, and they are quite determined they are to be prepared and ready, and are to have sufficient armaments, because they know their Governments, in certain eventualities, are determined on fighting. No Regulation, no limitation, no ratio, no standard can be found which will make the world safe from war while each Government has the nationalist ambition of preserving its supremacy or enforcing its demands by force of arms. The preliminary conference that has been called at Geneva is, perhaps, a more flagrant example of this futile method of trying to limit armaments. The experts go there; the experts are on their guard that nothing they do shall weaken their country. And they are quite right; it is their job; no one ought to blame them for a single moment; the people I am blaming are the Government, who try to delude us into supposing that these conferences mean anything. They mean nothing at all, and they will come to no sort of conclusion that is
  1772
  worth anything at all unless it be some trivial reduction in expenditure. The practical steps might be taken, but they are not taken. The fear of the aggressor is the fear which stands before any Government, and, through every Government, every people is made to fear. This aggressive foe is going to attack this nation one of these days.
  That is the war myth, kept up in war time, and kept up in peace time to make people pay for armaments and war preparations. Without all these technical committees and conferences, there is a principle which might be laid down by the Governments a principle to which they have practically agreed in the Treaty of Versailles. That principle was laid down when Germany was disarmed in 1919, and, if the Governments of Europe were really sincere, they have only to adopt the same standards for themselves as they enforced upon Germany. There you have your principle, and then you send your experts to work it out. But the Governments of Europe have no intention of doing that. They send their experts to wrangle over the details, without giving them any principle upon which to work; and, of course, the result is bound to be failure. Another method of going forward would be, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, for the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, on behalf of this country, to make a similar gesture to that which M. Briand made to the United States, and to initiate the idea of compulsory arbitration and the rejection of the weapon of war. If the right hon. Gentleman did that, he could grasp laurels that are far more enduring than the, unfortunately, fading laurels which he gained at Locarno. Only in that direction can some advance be made.
  I believe that, in Europe as it is today, there will be no change so long as we drift back into the old road. You have alarming ambition in Italy, fear in Russia, resentment in Germany, suspicion in France, danger in Poland, confusion in the Balkans, mistrust in America, and war in China. [Interruption.] I quite admit that I have painted a gloomy picture, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman is going to prove that I am wrong. I shall have done some useful service if I can get a pronouncement that I am wrong. But my memory

  1773
  is long enough to remember the sense of false security into which we were lulled before 1914—[Interruption]—by secrecy and concealment. It is because I want to have au open declaration of how matters stand, and a denial that there need be such apprehension, that I have ventured to make the remarks that I have made. As it seems to me, there has not been the change that we expected. The voice is still the voice of war; the language is still the language of nationalism; the manner is still the manner of the old diplomacy, and the method is still the method of alliances and pacts.
  Some time ago, M. Briand asked the representatives at Geneva to endeavour to learn European. I am afraid they have not even mastered the grammar. But there is one language that they have made no attempt to learn at all, and that is the language of the common people, through which they might express the opinion of the multitude. Surely, the common people, the multitude, the mob, call them what they will, should be heard. However ignorant, however inarticulate they may be, it seems to me that they ought to have some say in the eventualities which may, and probably will, lead to the destruction of themselves, their women and their children by the hundred thousand and the million. The Governments of Europe would derive more inspiration from the blunt refusal of the common people to allow the quarrels of statesmen to precipitate them again into the barbarity of war than they will find in the manipulations and intrigues of the stale old game of diplomacy. I believe that at this moment what stands between us and other nations and warfare—actual conflict—is the determination of the peoples in all countries that they are not going to have it again. If the Governments were to abandon the weapon of war because the peoples loathe it, if they were to insist on compulsory arbitration because the peoples want it, if they were to make the League of Nations into a real instrument for expressing conciliation between nations and reaching disarmament, then I believe they might avert another terrible catastrophe, and they would certainly earn the gratitude and the blessing of countless generations to come.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am a little embarrassed by an accident which, I think, has interfered with the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). I had been given to understand that he would follow the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby), and I proposed later to follow him. He is unable to be in his place, and I was finding it a little difficult to decide whether courtesy required that I should reply to the hon. Member for Brightside or should wait for the, as far as I understand, uncertain arrival of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. I think that, perhaps, I shall best conform with the desire of the Committee if I speak at once.
  As I listened to the hon. Gentleman—and I think that at moments he was conscious of it himself—he reminded me of a phrase that was more common among the ladies in my youth than it is in my old age. Ladies of the Victorian age were not unaccustomed to say that they had enjoyed a good cry, and it is not surprising that my hon. Friend, who has Victorian features about him, was indulging in that operation, which I must confess never had any particular attraction for me. The hon. Gentleman, I thought, was going to open a serious attack upon the policy of this Government. As he proceeded, I became less and less sure what was the case, if case there was, which he urged against the present Government, and which I was expected to answer. The hon. Gentleman, at a very eary stage of his speech, expressed his distrust of the Press and of the mischief which they often did; but every statement of his which he wished to support, or attempted to support with any evidence, was based upon some statement in some newspaper. At one moment it was an English correspondent who said that the last Council meeting at Geneva had begun in Paris and in the train. In that case, it began without me, for I was not engaged in any confabulation, either in Paris or in the train, before I got to Geneva, which I reached by motor car from a different direction; and I was not aware, when I met my colleagues at the Council, or entered into conversation with any of those who were present outside the Council, that my liberty had been in any way

  1775
  impeded, or the interests of my country in any way jeopardised, by any private conversations that might have been held at the station in Paris or in the sleeping cars by which they proceeded to Geneva.
  The hon. Gentleman said that the Opposition have every right to be suspicious of the Government, and that right gives him so much pleasure, and so much scope for his imagination, that it would seem almost ungenerous to do anything to deprive him of it. But I can assure him, if he needs to be assured, that there is nothing secret about British foreign policy. There are no engagements or undertakings that are not known to the House of Commons, and I have more than once repeated, not merely for this Government but, as I believe, as a statement which every Government in this country has adopted, that it will undertake no future engagements on behalf of our country without submitting those engagements to Parliament and having the approval of Parliament for them. There are, therefore, no such commitments or undertakings as the hon. Gentleman, reading the Press, embroidering the news that it supplies to him, lying awake at nights anxiously pondering the future of Europe, feels lie behind the inadequate utterances of the present Secretary of State in the House of Commons. The hon. Gentleman is suspicious of the British Government. It is some consolation to me that he is equally or more suspicious of every other Government. There is no charge which he lays at our door which he will not equally lay at the door of all those other Governments. If there be a fault in our policy, it is that we have desired to co-operate with other Governments, and have not propounded schemes and plans which, however beautiful they appear in theory, would make confusion worse confounded, instead of carrying us by slow and modest steps along the path to peace and progress.
  The hon. Gentleman observed, correctly, that since Locarno we cannot be indifferent to the relationships of the other nations of Europe, and, in particular, France. That statement is, of course, commonplace, but why did he affix that particular date? Does not the Great War show that without any treaties or agreements we could not be indifferent to the state of Europe, or to the relations
  1776
  existing between France and Germany, and if the example of the Great War is not sufficient to enforce that truth, is not the fact that we signed the Covenant itself a committal, as it were, to take an interest in the maintenance of peace everywhere and in the settlement by peaceful means of every international dispute, however remote the subject of that dispute may be from our own particular interests? I agree that we are profoundly interested in the peace of the world and, whether by public treaty disclosed to this House and approved by this House, or by private conversation, or at the Council, in the Assembly or apart from the Assembly, all effort of British statesmanship is to reconcile all enemies, to remove, if by our good offices we can remove, or to help in removing, present causes of difference and to help nations to settle those differences which must inevitably arise in a spirit of good-fellowship and without resort to force. We have done our best, and not without some success, to remove suspicions, to facilitate the meeting of those who have to discuss differences and to help to settle some of these questions of which there are, naturally, an unusual number with us at so short a period after the War, but from which it is too much to hope that the world will ever be free.
  In no more than a passing allusion the hon. Gentleman spoke of recent speeches made in France and Germany as if they were a reversal of this policy of reconciliation, which is not merely our policy but the policy of the Government of France, the policy of the Government of Germany and the policy, as I hope and believe, of all the other Governments concerned. It is very difficult when you speak of foreign affairs to measure your language so that you may say all that you wish to say, or think it necessary to say, to your own people and yet produce no false or exaggerated impression elsewhere. The hon. Gentleman is never tired of insisting upon open diplomacy. Open diplomacy involves controversy, and calls inevitably for a certain mobilisation of the Press in support of the orator of their own country, and it evokes an equal mobilisation of the Press of whatever country is the other party to the question discussed in the opposite sense. These things are inevitable. Do not let us exaggerate the consequences.

  1777
  There is no reason to dispute the hon. Gentleman's statement that 1927 is very different from 1924, but what reason is there to suppose that it is worse? I have attended every meeting of the Council and have been present for a time at each meeting of the Assembly since I accepted the Seals of the Foreign Office. I will say without hesitation, that if, instead of reading the tittle-tattle of an occasional correspondent, or his momentary impression, the hon. Gentleman would consult anyone who has equally frequented all the meetings at Geneva, who was there before me and is there now, he will find a practical consensus of opinion—I wish above all to guard myself against the language of exaggeration and against holding out expectations which are themselves exaggerated, but in the sober language of truth the League and the Council are stronger to-day than they were three years ago, that the atmosphere is more peaceful than it was three years ago and that questions that could not be discussed and were not discussed three years ago are now discussed in that very spirit of friendly co-operation which it is the desire of the hon. Gentleman, as well as of ourselves, to see prevail in Europe.
  The hon. Gentleman called attention to a striking statement of M. Briand made earlier this year in which he said the Government of France was willing to enter into negotiations or conversations with the United States of America for the outlawry of war between their two countries. I believe such conversations are likely to take place, and I need not say I unfeignedly wish them well, but that it would be an impertinence, and worse than an impertinence, if I were to indicate any opinion as to the lines on which such conversations should proceed. For ourselves, I hope between the United States and this country war is already outlawed, not on paper but in the heart and soul of every citizen. I know it is in the heart and soul of every citizen in this country, and I hope it is equally so in the great Republic of the United States of America.
  The hon. Gentleman passed from these allusions—I can hardly call them a summary of the relations between France and Germany and ourselves—to consider our relations with Italy. It appeared to give him quite particular pain that those
  1778
  relations are cordial and satisfactory. He said Italy had been made by this Government the subject of its special favour. Actually the Foreign Secretary, when taking a 10 days' holiday cruise in the Mediterranean with a friend, had responded to the invitation of Signor Mussolini to meet him at Leghorn. It is not only the Secretary of State who has thus conspired with Signor Mussolini. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Cabinet Ministers had passed through Rome, and I think it was suggested, and probably quite truly, that none of them had passed through Rome without paying a visit to Signor Mussolini. But we pass through Paris, and not only I, but my colleagues, pay visits of the same kind in Paris to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, it may be to the President of the Council or the President of the Republic, who has been good enough to receive some of us, or to the Minister of Finance, and we talk over matters. I beg the Committee not merely in words, but in fact to put away all suspicion. Had there, been regular meetings of the statesmen who bore the largest weight of responsibility, who were charged with the daily conduct of foreign affairs before the War, is it not just possible that the results might have been different? Is it really to be a matter of suspicion if I meet the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary at Rome, or the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary of France in Paris, or if I met the Foreign Secretary or the Chancellor of the German Reich in Geneva, where I have met them, or in Berlin, as some day I hope I may?
  On the contrary, the Committee may be assured that, as I have said and as I repeat, we have made, as a Government, no binding engagement committing us to ultimate action in case of war without those engagements being submitted to this House and without the House having an opportunity to express its opinion. But when you have that guarantee, for Heaven's sake do not hold it up as a matter of suspicion that the Ministers of two friendly States meet and discuss affairs of common interest, and do not suppose that because they find a coincidence of purpose in the maintenance of peace, in support of the League, in the effort to settle the difficulties which are disturbing the peace of

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  the world, they have been engaged in some base intrigue which they clothe under this show of fine words, and that, because two countries are friends, their friendship must be pointed against someone else. That is the most mischievous of international delusions. I suppose nothing did more to pervert Germany's policy before the War and to produce the catastrophe of the War than the obsession of the Germans that at that time it was their interest to keep other Governments quarrelling among themselves, and that any settlement between other Governments of their differences, any improvement in the relations of other Governments, was a blow to Germany.
  That, I say, is the most fatal doctrine that can spread in Europe. That, more than anything else, was responsible for the Great War, which is still fresh in our memory, and it is a tragedy to see that same obsession, driven out of Germany, now taking root in another great and neighbouring country. The hon. Gentleman did not wish, as he said fairly, to debate our breach with Russia. He thought our diplomacy clumsy. He was quite sure that the French would do nothing so elephantine. They would prosecute or expel any Communist of whom they had reason to complain. They would tear up any documents of whatever character—whether trade agreements or otherwise he did not specify. I have never invited any other Power to follow our example. Each of us must protect his own interest in his own way. Each Government must do what is suitable to the circumstances of its own country and the necessities of its national defence. And if the hon. Gentleman, deceived by the perusal of nameless Continental journals, which, he says, are full of rumours, thinks that His Majesty's Government—I presume through me—have been attempting to form an anti-Russian block, then I say to him without hesitation that no Government in Europe is under the same misapprehension. The German Government know that it is not true. The French Government know that it is not true. The Italian Government know that it is not true. Every border State knows that it is not true. And they all know that, from first to last, so far from trying to involve them in our quarrels or disagreements, even before those that led to a rupture of diplomatic
  1780
  relations as since they have led to a rupture—I have told them all—they need fear no criticism and no jealousy from the Government of this country if they should do anything to produce a détente or improve their relations with the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
  Mr. PONSONBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the Home Secretary what he has just told the Committee?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: It is not necessary for me to repeat it to the Home Secretary. That policy is a policy of His Majesty's Government which the Home Secretary helped me to formulate at a Cabinet Council.
  All these circumstances, this rather jejune summary and not very accurate picture of European history in the speech of the hon. Gentleman were but a prelude to his approach to the League. The hon. Gentleman complained that the League was now relegated to a back seat to deal only with secondary questions; that all the most important matters were settled either in Paris or in the train, or even in my room in the hotel in Geneva. Now let us get down to commonsense. I was asked at Geneva by M. Briand and Dr. Stresemann to invite the Powers to the Ambassadors' Conference and the representative of Germany to a meeting in my room. Would the hon. Gentleman have had me refuse? He shakes his head. He would have accepted as I accepted and gladly placed my room at disposal for a conversation which, I think, all would desire. If that be so, and it is so, and that is the whole of the story, why build this vast and mischievous structure of suspicion and misconception in so simple an affair? We met once in my room and we met once in M. Briand's room, to which we adjourned the discussion because, I am sorry to say, M. Briand was suffering severely at the moment.
  What did we discuss at these meetings? I will tell the hon. Gentleman, rather negatively, I think, than positively. Though this much of the positive side I will say. I was invited to give an explanation of the reasons which had led to our rupture of diplomatic relations with Russia and to state, and openly declare if I was willing, whether we meant to carry the quarrel any further. I gave to the gentlemen who were present an explanation of our reasons such as is

  1781
  familiar to the House; because it had been made by the Prime Minister and by myself in previous statements, before ever I had gone to Geneva and I repeated firmly, what is known to the Committee, that while breaking off diplomatic relations which had been abused to the point at which they were a danger, instead of a security, to peace, we had declared our intention to make whatever arrangements were necessary for the continuance of trade, and that that was the best guarantee that we could give, if any guarantee were needed, that we on our side did not desire to push our differences any further, and that we did not invite any other Power to change its policy on our account. That much I say positively, lest my failure to say it should feed the suspicions on which so much of the public controversy turns. Otherwise, I say negatively—and I think it is the answer to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the business of the Council is removed to these secret conversations—that, as far as I know, only a single question which had to be discussed at the Council was discussed by us in the course of the conversations on those two afternoons. I hope I do not commit any indiscretion or embarrass anyone else if I say that that one subject was the addition of a German citizen to the Commission of Mandates, as to which Dr. Stresemann wished to know how the ground lay before making his decision whether to make a formal proposition in the Council or not.
  Having therefore, I hope, disabused the hon. Gentleman, and as far as my words may reach and carry conviction, other people of the idea that we have arrogated to ourselves in some little conclave, sometimes big or sometimes small, to do the work, I ask the Committee to pause for a moment to consider what work the Council has done in the course of the last two or three years, and whether it justifies the charge that it is left to deal only with secondary questions and that all big questions are removed from it. The Council arranged a settlement of the dispute which broke out in consequence of the frontier incident between Bulgaria and Greece where the frontier had already been crossed and where military operations were in progress, military operations to which an immediate halt was called and an almost immediate
  1782
  retreat of each party behind its own frontier. But for that machinery, gathered at a moment's notice when the emergency arose, the incident might have led to very serious consequences. That was done by the Council of the League. The question of the boundary between Iraq and Turkey was settled by the Council of the League. The financial reconstruction of Austria and Hungary was made possible by the League, and, owing to its success, the financial control and supervision have been practically terminated in both countries. The admission of Germany to the League was secured, and the re-organisation of the Council of the League. Not one of these was a light task. Not one of these was a small question. All were successfully handled by the League, and the consequences of a breakdown or a failure to deal with them were averted. I do not need to dwell on the countless questions that have been in dispute between the free City of Dantzig and Poland, and upon the countless petitions from minorities under the Minority Treaties against this or that act of their Government which have been examined by Committees of the Council and dealt with by the Council whenever occasion arose.
  5.0 p.m.
  The Council is doing its work. It is doing it with an ever increasing authority and certainty. But the Council and the League are very young bodies. They have got their way to make. Wisely handled, prudently conducted, with some good fortune, which, we may hope, may be granted to us, I who try never to use exaggerated language, and I who am not given to loose expressions of faith without meaning, I say that my experience as Foreign Minister and as an attendant at the Council of the League has added to my confidence that the League will grow in power and strength and moral influence under the conditions that I have mentioned. But do not let the hon. Gentleman run away with the idea that because there is a League and a Council it is, therefore, the business of the Council to interfere, here, there and everywhere, as soon as they see any sign of disagreement, or that it is the business of every Government which has a difference which it cannot at once settle with another at once to invoke the League and carry its question before this great Council of the League.

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  That is not my conception of the League; it is not my conception of the purposes for which it was created, or the methods by which you can conserve its strength and its usefulness. It is the business of two Governments who have a difference to settle it between themselves. The League is a last resort—something better than war, as a law court is better than resort to personal violence, but it does not mean that two nations which have a dispute are at once to go before the League, any more than that the existence of law courts mean that if two men have a dispute they are to take it straight into court, or someone is to bring it there against the will of them both, before they have had time or have made the effort which is incumbent upon them to settle it among themselves.
  The hon. Gentleman did not give a true picture of the League, or a correct picture of the League, any more than his picture of Europe was a correct picture of Europe. At that point in his argument he dealt upon the particular treaties which have been signed. Look at the kind of treaty which he stated in his list with a view to showing how depressingly Europe is going back and how dangerous is the present situation—the treaty of amity and friendship between Italy and Hungary; the treaty of amity and friendship between Italy and Germany and the treaty of amity and friendship between France and Turkey. In each and every case, the treaty is in some measure one of appeasement and reconciliation between two Powers that were at war two or three years ago. It is from the signature of such treaties that we are to draw those gloomy inferences, and from the fact that these treaties are concluded that we are to assume that the League has become a shadow and no longer serves any useful purpose! The hon. Gentleman may have in his mind vast and ambitious schemes of a universal character. I mistrust them. They give scope for magnificent professions of faith, they give ample room for fine rhetorical effect, but they do not lead to business, and I think that the more modest efforts upon which we have concentrated, since the famous Protocol was got out of the way, have accomplished
  1784
  more than all the vast and ambitious schemes which the hon. Gentleman was no doubt silently regretting.
  Then the hon. Gentleman came to disarmament. He alluded to this question so cursorily that I had a little difficulty in following him, alike in regard to the Preparatory Commission on Disarmament, which held its last meeting in May and which adjourned to the Autumn, and to the Conference between representatives of the United States, Great Britain and Japan, which is now in process at Geneva. The hon. Gentleman made some observations on this subject which surprised me so much that I wrote them down at the time. He takes a very gloomy view of the results of the discussions of the Preparatory Commission. He says that failure can only follow if you send experts to discuss technical questions; but he ignores the presence of men who, although they may becomes experts by study, are not experts by career in these matters of armament and disarmament, a man like my Noble Friend Lord Cecil, and his foreign colleagues of similar rank or extraction, who have presided over their respective delegations. He goes on to say that these conferences are doomed to failure, and that you cannot trust to the good faith of nations if they expect war. But all international relations depend upon the extent to which we can trust to the good faith of nations. Unless you can build upon some reasonable assurance of international good faith, you might as well give up not only all diplomacy but every kind and form of treaty or agreement whatsoever, whether they are negotiated between individual nations or groups of nations, or whether they are signed, sealed and solemnly delivered by all the nations in the League in the presence of the League Assembly. The hon. Gentleman not only discussed the good faith of other nations and told us that it is futile to build on the assumption that there is good faith, but he went on to say that the Coolidge Conference is an even more futile example of this kind. The hon. Gentleman would not allow a ray of sunshine to pierce through the gloom of his oration.
  I do not want to be more optimistic than circumstances justify, but I do not by any means abandon the hope that, in the sphere of naval armaments to which

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  the present conversations at Geneva are directed, these, conversations may yet lead to a sensible relief of the burdens which would otherwise fall upon the peoples of the three countries which are there represented. If the hon. Gentleman is under the misapprehension, which his words seem to convey, that this conference means nothing to us; if he is under the impression that that is a true statement of the views of His Majesty's Government, he is under a complete misconception. It is quite obvious that I cannot enter here and now into a detailed argument or exposition of the British case—
  Mr. LUNN: What has it done towards disarmament?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: —as it has been discussed and disclosed at Geneva; but I say this to the hon. Gentleman, that our delegation went out there with a carefully thought-out plan for the further alteration of naval armaments, and the efficacy and extent of the proposals which we were prepared to lay before the conference may be measured, perhaps, by this single fact, that for years to come they would mean a reduction, adopted by others following the same example, on the naval expenditure which we would otherwise have to incur of a sum nearer £50,000,000 than £40,000,000. You see the controversy which is going on in the Press. To my mind, and to the mind of our Government, the question of total tonnage is by itself insignificant, and a decision on total tonnage and that alone would by itself be ineffective either to check armaments or to secure further limitation. Unless some further limitations are to be put upon the number of ships which have the most aggressive character, which are accompaniments and parts of the great fleets, then the mere total limitation of tonnage would lead not to a reduction of naval competition, and not to a reduction of expenditure, but would involve all the parties in still further extension and still further expenditure. I cannot believe that when the proposals of His Majesty's Government, which mean a great deal, are fairly before the country; when it is possible fairly to put before the country both our own proposals and the proposals of foreign countries, there will be any doubt as to their reasonable character or as to the sincerity of His Majesty's Government
  1786
  in seeking to derive the greatest possible relief for our people and the other peoples associated with us in that conference, called through the initiative of President Coolidge.
  We can only move with other Powers. We reduced our Army without waiting for anyone else. Immediately, on the conclusion of the Armistice, without waiting for the conclusion of peace, we brought the size of our Army down to what is nothing more than the bare military police required for the purposes of such an Empire as ours. It is unthinkable to us that we should enter into competition with the United States of America in a new race of armaments. We do not attempt to suggest that in any class of vessel they are not entitled to parity, without criticism or objection from us, that their needs require. For our own part, we seek only to secure the special protection which is vital to an Empire so peculiarly situated as ours, on the lowest scale that we can arrange with other naval Powers, so that all our burdens and efforts may be lightened, and that the menace of war, if there be a menace of war, with big armaments may be removed. We must recognise, and I am sure that others will recognise, the difference between an Empire such as ours, which is scattered over every sea and divided by wide oceans, and the position of Empires which are practically self-contained, and whose communications in war would be unmenaced, even although they were engaged in a great struggle.
  We in this island not merely desire trade as others desire it, not merely desire protection as others desire it, but we in this country whose supplies are only sufficient for seven weeks' subsistence of our people have to think how we can live, not how we should starve, if our sea communications were interrupted. These are obvious considerations, and they are considerations to which others, I am sure, will give due weight. As I hope and believe, through the Coolidge Conference may come proposals that will mark a real step forward in the limitation of naval armaments, and then, encouraged and moved by that example, a new stimulus may be given to the larger International Conference which is to meet to consider not merely naval armaments but land armaments and air armaments as well. We are faithfully discharging

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  what we conceive to be the duties that our countrymen would wish a British Government in whosoever hands it is, to follow. We are seeking to avoid quarrels for ourselves, and we are seeking, where we can do so properly and usefully, to smooth the paths of others, and to reconcile their feuds or differences, or help them to reconcile them. We base our whole foreign policy on support of the League, and on appeal to the League in the last resort. All the purpose of this policy is to secure peace, not only for ourselves but for the world.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The right hon. Gentleman always delights us with his Parliamentary manner and his great debating skill, if I may say so. I suppose he will be making speeches similar to the one we have just enjoyed, when the guns begin to shoot. He accused my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) of having a good cry, and he proceeded to have a very good laugh himself. I would remind him of what used to happen in the days of my youth, and I suppose it happened in the days of his youth. When people laughed too much at a comedy at the theatre, they sometimes reduced themselves to tears. In the latter part of his oration, I thought the right hon. Gentleman himself came pretty near to crying. He was very careful to avoid answering certain questions which my hon. Friend put to him, and I do not altogether blame him. If I were in his place, I should probably try to avoid answering such questions. I will put a few questions, which may or may not be answered later. In answer to a question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman last Wednesday, with regard to the Conference at Geneva about Russia, he spoke of the representatives of the six Powers which had met at the suggestion of M. Briand—
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: And of Herr Stresemann.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: —to explain the reason why we had broken off relations with Russia. It is a very extraordinary thing after the Debates in this House, after the White Papers that have been issued, and the speeches outside this House by Ministers of the present Government, great and small, that it should still require this
  1788
  private meeting in the right hon. Gentleman's hotel apartments in order to explain why we have broken off relations with Russia. I am not going to traverse the ground of the Russian situation, which will have to be debated in this Chamber probably before very long. If the representatives of these favoured Powers were to be given special reasons why we have broken off with Russia, was not the whole Council of the League entitled to the same explanation? The right hon. Gentleman rode off, when he was questioned on that point, by saying it was not on the agenda. Why was it not on the agenda? Why could not His Majesty's Government have had it placed on the agenda, and why should not a reassurance have been given to the world, through the Council of the League, that, although we have broken off with Russia, we are not going to push the quarrel further, as far as we are concerned? Why was it necessary to have a secret meeting of the six Powers? Why could not the matter have been declared openly before the Council and the world?
  Before leaving the Russian question, I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman admitted that the atmosphere in Russia was simlilar to the atmosphere in Germany just before 1914. It will be remembered that, as a result of the Entente Cordiale and the understanding with Russia, the German Government led the German people to believe that they were being surrounded, and that Germany had to break through. That, as the right hon. Gentleman explained, was one of the causes of the War—the fear of being encircled. He now tells us, and he knows better than anyone else, from the information at his disposal, hat the same fear now obtains in the Kremlin in Moscow. What is he doing to remove that fear? He admits that the fear is there. He says there is no foundation for it. He hopes that his words spoken in this House will reach the Russian people. What is he doing other than making speeches in this House to remove that fear? It is a serious matter.
  There is another serious matter which claims our attention. We find that Persia is making a demand, similar to the Chinese demand, for the abolition of all capitulations. At one time, our influence in Persia was paramount. We were the

  1789
  most loved people and a people in whom the Persians had confidence. To-day the Persians are demanding the cancellation of all capitulations. The Persians are twisting the lion's tail over a most vital line of communication, the air route from Cairo to Karachi, the air mail route to India. If our air communications with India develop further, that route will be as important as the Suez canal route is to-day for sea communication. The Persians agreed with us to allow aeroplanes to fly over Persian territory, but they now refuse to permit them to fly over Persian territory. That position has gone on for two or three months, and that promising line of Imperial communication is held up. That is a serious position. Hon. Members opposite, when they are told to say something or when the newsapers tell them to say something, wax very indignant when there are any threats to our communications, but they are quiet on this point. We have weakened our position with Persia owing to our policy over Russia. I do not say that Persia is acting on suggestions from Moscow, for I believe that its policy is dictated by a high-minded Persian patriot, Rizza Khan, who wants to lift his country up to a high position in the world. I am glad that, he has risen to the throne of the shah. The reason that he can defy us now and why he thinks it pays him to defy us is because we have broken with Russia. That is one example. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) laughs.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The dates do not support that conclusion.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The right hon. Gentleman says the dates do not support that conclusion Then, it is because of our strained relations with Russia. The break with Russia was only the culmination, the natural result of the whole attitude of the present Government.
  Commander BELLAIRS: What is there vital about an aeroplane flying over Persia to India?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The hon. and gallant Member's heart is still on the sea. He does not realise yet that we have ceased to be an island. Perhaps he has been reading the book called "The Great Delusion." He has
  1790
  not understood what the Imperial air communications will mean to this Empire in the future. It is of very great importance to our trade.
  Commander BELLAIRS: We may be allowed the route by then.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he is a great supporter of the League of Nations and that he thinks things are much better as a result of the League's activities during the last three or four years. He was too modest to say that it was because he has held his present high office. Is it a fact that he has proposed that the Council of the League shall meet less often? Is it true that he proposes that the Council should meet once a year less owing to the amount of work occasioned? Is that so? If so, I do not think it shows a very great belief in the League of Nations and the work it is doing where great matters are concerned. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman as I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside in many things with regard to the League of Nations. While sharing the views of my hon. Friend, I also, in part, share the views of the right hon Gentleman. The League of Nations performs, perhaps, its most important function by bringing statesmen of all States together, not only Foreign Ministers but Prime Ministers, and I agree that that is all to the good.
  Furthermore, the League of Nations has a most efficient machine. It has built up an international civil service, industrious, capable, devoted, and when it can be used, when the situation in the world allows it to be used, to the full, it will be a blessing to all the nations of the world. The League is doing very useful work in preventing the spread of disease where possible, in preventing slavery where it can, white slavery and black slavery, in regulating the transmission of opium and other important duties. We must all recognise the great value of that work; but with regard to one of its prime functions, the bringing about of disarmament, as the Covenant of the League lays down that it shall, by agreement among the nations, so far its success has been exactly nothing. In spite of all the Commissions of experts, in spite of the

  1791
  Preparatory Commissions, in spite of the great and devoted work of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—we all recognise the sincerity of Lord Cecil in this matter and his untiring energy in this cause—the net result has been that not one battalion of infantry, not one battery of artillery, not one battleship has been disbanded or scrapped, not one new vessel has been stopped from being built, not one new aeroplane the less has been ordered, as a result of all the negotiations and discussions and conference that have taken place at Geneva. As far as I can see, especially after what has happened at the Coolidge Conference—I understood that it had been tacitly agreed that it would not be discussed to-day, although the right hon. Gentleman has made some very valuable remarks upon it—we can expect nothing from the League of Nations on the present lines on which it is going.
  The problem of disarmament has always been approached from the wrong angle. So long as you recognise war as an institution, as a legality, as a possibility, you cannot lay down to independent sovereign States what armaments they shall have. You can do it in the case of defeated enemies, as in the case of Germany, Bulgaria and Austria, and you can get voluntary disarmament in the case of small nations like Denmark. And no one threatens Denmark. But you cannot say to nations like Poland and Rumania, who are exposed to the dangers of War, that they are to reduce their armaments, that we must have commissions to see that the armaments are reduced; you cannot get agreement so long as there is a possibility of these nations being attacked. If you wish to prevent the traffic in armaments, the sale and manufacture of munitions of war, if you want to bring about great reductions in armaments, you have first to abolish war as a recognised legality. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to, and welcomed, the statement of M. Briand inviting the United States Government to agree with what he himself called the outlawry of war between France and the United States.
  My hon. Friend has asked whether the right hon. Gentleman proposed to make a similar declaration. The right hon. Gentleman in this connection used words
  1792
  which I noted. I was struck by their remarkable nature. He said—I am paraphrasing his speech—that "for ourselves, we believe that the idea of war between the United States of America and England is already outlawed." He said that we believed that in our hearts, and hon. Members opposite cheered here and there, not generally. "We believe in our hearts," said the right hon. Gentleman, "that there can be no question of war between ourselves and the United States," and a few minutes later he devoted his attention to the so-called Coolidge Conference at Geneva, and made a defence of the British position, in which he said that he thought public opinion would inevitably endorse our contention that it was better to have a limitation of classes rather than a total tonnage limitation, and the reason he gave was that when you have a total tonnage ratio—the matter must have been in everyone's mind—then certain Powers would be able to build vessels of an aggressive type. The right hon. Gentleman must be referring to the United States of America, because at the discussions at Geneva we have declared that we would be satisfied with so many cruisers of so many thousand tons, but that if the United States built a certain number of cruisers of 10,000 tons we must build a similar amount, in addition to the smaller cruisers required for the protection of our trade routes.
  That was where the right hon. Gentleman nearly came to the verge of tears. They followed his humanitarian, sentimental declaration that our hearts were filled with the idea that war between us and the United States was already outlawed. The right hon. Gentleman has deluded himself. The sentence I have quoted regarding cruiser vessels shows that he has deluded himself. I want to ask the Under-Secretary of State, who is now present, why we do not make a similar declaration and invite a similar declaration from the United States. If we arid the United States would make that declaration one towards the other, and invite other nations to come in with us, we should certainly be joined by many important Powers in Europe. Holland and Switzerland would immediately follow our example, so also would Denmark and Scandinavia. I see the hon. Member for Aberdeen and Kincardine (Mr. Boothby) smiling, but he

  1793
  does not seem to have noted the fact that I have mentioned the four Powers in Europe which are the most important financial countries, and banking is a force in this matter. Finance is an important factor when you are discussing war and rumours of war. If the French Government are prepared to make this declaration towards the United States we should invite them to make a similar declaration towards us. In this way you would have the beginnings of the outlawry of war. If nations like Germany, with her latent resources and potential strength, her science, and her great population; if France, with its military force, and ourselves and the United States of America, with Holland and Switzerland, would make this declaration amongst themselves, many other things would solve themselves.
  You must approach this question of disarmament from an entirely different angle. This is not a matter of a few weeks or months, but if you begin now, and now is the time, I am sure it is an example which would spread. If you talk to the ordinary, decent-minded man or woman in this country, one who is not concerned with politics at all, and ask him or her whether war is a right thing as between nations, you will in every case get a negative answer. They will always agree, that is, every decent-minded person, I do not mean the professional alarmist, but the ordinary man and woman, that war should be made illegal. There is a general agreement in this House. Why not make a start? War should be looked upon as unthinkable, and as illegal, just as illegal as the raising of a private army in this country. Four hundred years ago it was a, most respectable thing for a noble lord to raise his own private army against the King's Government. It is impossible now, because the man who starts a civil war in a country is looked upon with loathing and contempt, and when war between nations is looked upon as being as hateful a thing as civil war, all these other matters will settle themselves, including the private manufacture of armaments, the manufacture of munitions of war, secret diplomacy, all these problems will settle themselves. Now is the time to do it.
  I fear that the Coolidge Conference at Geneva has been a failure. I regret it,
  1794
  because I discussed it in America with many prominent men, including the leaders of the so-called big-Navy party. I had great hopes of this conference, but I fear that it is going to end in failure, and the position afterwards will be much worse than it was before. We shall be on the eve of a great race in naval armaments. I do not wish to dwell upon the matter to-night because it will have to be discussed on the Floor of this House before Parliament rises, and with all the facts before us. Even if some sort of agreement is patched up, many people will be greatly alarmed. Now is the time for a bold step on behalf of the Government, and I think they should seriously consider a suggestion as to whether they cannot follow the example of France and invite the United States to converse with us as to the declared illegality of war between us. If it is in our hearts impossible to fight America—and the position of Canada would make it impossible—then why not put the matter into a written, signed and sealed document? Then all these questions as to the number of cruisers, the number of guns, of submarines, and all the other things will settle themselves. We are always approaching this question of armaments from the wrong end. The League of Nations is hampered by being an institution which has to recognise war as a possibility. Its function is to limit war, to shut it off in a corner and prevent it spreading. That is an impossible task. There is no other way of preventing our drifting into war, because war once started will spread, and nothing will prevent it. If any two major Powers in Europe were at war to-day, the other Powers would follow, and nothing would prevent it. If we allow matters to drift as they are, we shall drift into another catastrophe worse than the Great War, from the effects of which we have not yet recovered.
  Sir PARK GOFF: My only reason for intervening in this Debate to-night is that I happen to represent disarmaments on the Inter-Parliamentary Union of this House and I attended Conferences on their behalf in Paris, Geneva, Washington and Toronto. I have studied this question for some years in most of the countries of the world, and all the countries of Europe from Moscow and Baku in the

  1795
  East, to Lisbon in the West, from Scandinavia to Finland and the Baltic States in the North to Cadiz, Gibraltar, Brindisi and Athens in the South and it is my most profound belief that this question is one of the most serious and, at the same time, one of the most important problems with which this country has to deal to-day. Those who consider the question of disarmament can be divided into two schools of thought, those who consider continual preparation for war as the greatest safeguard for peace, and those who support disarmament, security and arbitration. The world to-day is doing its best to devise some other means of settling our international difficulties than by the savagery of war. The economic lesson of the world War has been burnt into the conscience of Europe. Everyone is feeling the pinch of armaments to-day through taxes, prices, and unemployment. The reduction of armaments will certainly tend to relieve the one and reduce the other.
  The League of Nations is pledged to reduction of armaments by Section 8 of the Covenant. This can never be the hasty product of a day. The organisation of peace is a far more complicated thing than the organisation of war. The habits and customs of centuries can never be wiped out by a stroke of the pen, nor can natural instinct. As far as I know, no means has yet been discovered to stop boys fighting at school. But I do think that a question of this sort requires the co-operation of all the expert opinion of every shade to establish the possibility of a constructive scheme for the reduction of armaments and the constitution of a peaceful settlement instead of the arbitrament of force. We cannot afford, in a case of this sort, to indulge in any doctrinaire theory. The results must be presented at the bar of public opinion, and no such scheme, in my humble judgment, can ever be practicable or effective without the united backing of the public opinion of the world. This plan has taken two forms. It was adopted by the Fourth Assembly of the League of Nations in September, 1924, as a Treaty of mutual guarantee based upon the two chief principles, firstly, a guarantee to come to the help of one another against aggression; and, secondly, on the basis of this
  1796
  security, a general reduction of armaments. During the interval between the Fourth and Fifth Assemblies it was felt by many Governments that the Treaty did not give sufficient guarantee of safety and security. So the Fifth Assembly concentrated on strengthening the guarantee and creating a more definite sense of security and safety.
  This was done by adding the principle of compulsory arbitration to those of security and the reduction of armaments. These three were mutually independent, and would conserve the interests of peace and peaceful settlement. With the co-operation of America, which has been mentioned this afternoon, a new Armaments Traffic Convention has been instituted for the better control of traffic in arms. These nations have been doing invaluable work for a peaceful solution throughout the world, on this particular question. I am one who holds with a peaceful solution in any international dispute. If any one nation is in dispute with another and has to settle that dispute by war or arbitration, then I am in favour of arbitration. May I put it in this way as an illustration? Suppose that six nations, A, B, C, D, E and F, have signed a treaty of mutual assistance. If A attacks B it will find itself not only against B, but against C, D, E and F as well. If that were known to be certain it would be very improbable that A would venture to attack at all. This does not necessarily mean the limitation of armaments, which is the central object of the whole Treaty, but it does make disarmament possible, for a State can afford to reduce her own armies if she knows that the other armies will come to her rescue in time of conflict. Any Treaty should take this further step by laying down that no State shall be entitled to claim the benefit of a Mutual Guarantee unless and until it has limited its armaments to a scale approved of by the Council of the League of Nations. There can be no limitation, therefore, without security, and there will be no security without limitation.
  As regards America, we should all like to see the United States become a member of the League of Nations. Whether she does so or not, I feel that if the League is allowed to lie dormant she will

  1797
  despise it, but if the League becomes a real and effective means for preventing armaments and securing peace in Europe, she may not join the League but she will respect it. The United States of America is in a very different position from ourselves. She has an ocean on either side of her. She has huge territory, self-supporting, self-supplying and self-relying and the whole continents of North and South America, from whom she need fear nothing at all. So the United States is in a position which entitles her to do without the League of Nations. But we in Europe cannot afford to do without the League of Nations. Where there are so many international obligations and rivalries, we cannot do without a League of Nations for the keeping down of armaments and for the future peace. I feel certain that if we can make the League a real agency in Europe for supporting these objects, we are far more likely to have sympathy and assistance from the United States of America. We know that the President of the United States signed the peace but the United States did not ratify the peace. This was a great disadvantage to all of us in Europe.
  Some people say that we should not complain, that we have no right to complain, that a nation can do what she considers best for herself. Other people say that we have a right to complain, that if the United States had backed up the original proposals at the time Europe would be much nearer a solution of her problems and difficulties and there would be far less misery in the world to-day. On the other hand, we have every reason to be grateful to the United States, because, although she did not join the League of Nations, nevertheless she agreed to go into the reparation question on its merits and agreed with us to try to find a solution of this question. The Dawes Committee, which is associated with the name of the distinguished American citizen who presided over it, did an immense amount of service in solving our difficulties. This American assistance was invaluable at the time and helped to clear the way for Germany coming into the League. We do not forget that America was the first to summon the Washington Conference, which resulted in the first decisive international Act of Parliament that the world
  1798
  has ever known. Her naval policy since the War has been so friendly to Great Britain that she has transferred her entire naval base to the Pacific coast and has never once quibbled at our Singapore Base.
  Pride of race and patriotism are inherent in every nation. Every nation has its obligations and responsibilities. Great Britain is in a unique and isolated position. We are only a little island in the North Sea, entirely dependent upon our overseas Dominions, Colonies and Protectorates. Our Navy is essentially our first line of defence and the most powerful life insurance which we possess to-day. We are all in favour of the reduction of armaments to the fullest limit consistent with our national safety and our international obligations. The removal of fear is the first essential. The British Empire, in my humble judgment, has already disarmed down to, and possibly much beyond, the limit of safety. We cannot afford to economise in naval armaments, as our Empire is entirely dependent upon our sea communications. America has a territory of 3,000,000 square miles. We have a territory of 13,000,000 square miles, scattered throughout the globe. Yet, although we are in this singularly exposed position, we agreed to put ourselves on a level in naval armaments with countries which can never be in the same position as ourselves. We did this only because we honestly believed in the necessity of limiting armaments, and because we believed that an undertaking such as that at Washington would prove to the whole world how sincere and earnest we were in our desire for peace, and in the hope that the nation with whom we accepted this policy would go still further in the reduction of her own naval armaments. After all, we came by the sea, we live by the sea and our whole future is on the sea. Our navy is the strongest bulwark we possess and the only means of securing our daily bread. Therefore, that bulwark must always be kept in the most perfect condition. The British Empire is the British Fleet, and if we are to preserve the one we must maintain the other.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: The hon. Member for Cleveland (Sir P. Goff) has made a speech of great sincerity and a speech which shows that he has made a close study of the technical phraseology

  1799
  of disarmament. Speeches of that kind have been delivered here for the last 50 years, and I am sure that the hon. Member must have read them all, because there was not a phrase in his speech which has not appeared in at least one of those which have gone before. Fifty years ago the House of Commons passed a pious Resolution in favour of disarmament—50 years ago, and periodically since that date this question has been discussed by the House. I would like to offer this in consolation to the hon. Member, that if his speech was full of pious phrases and diplomatic platitudes, it was no worse in that respect than the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. For an hour the Foreign Secretary made a speech which, if any hon. Member studies the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow and takes a blue pencil, he will find it extremely difficult to underline a single sentence which means anything at all. The Foreign Secretary is an adept at making a speech which befogs the main issue. The subject for debate this afternoon is disarmament, and the right hon. Gentleman spoke for 45 minutes without referring to disarmament at all. He crammed into the last few minutes of his speech a few references to disarmament, which no one whom I have been able to consult can understand.
  It is time that this question of disarmament was approached in a more drastic and realistic way. The Foreign Secretary appeared to boast that his record at the Foreign Office had been satisfactory, and, though that is not the subject of this Debate, I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman of one or two events which have occurred during his regime. In the first place we all remember that after the Treaty of Versailles the German nation was compelled to disarm. That act was justified by an understanding that it was no penal measure to be inflicted on the German nation, but that it was to be followed by a general measure of disarmament among European nations. Many years have elapsed and no single step forward has been taken to meet that general understanding.
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted; and 40 Members being present—
  6.0 p.m.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I was saying when I was interrupted that no single step forward has been taken since the War towards any practical measure of disarmament. The Foreign Secretary claimed that his regime at the Foreign Office had been a success. I ask him if he can point to a single diplomatic success which has been secured during his regime. He boasted that the League of Nations had been able successfully to tackle big problems. We all remember that when the Italian Navy bombarded Corfu, the League of Nations was conspicious by its absence and when this country politely suggested to Italy that the matter could properly be referred to the League of Nations, our representations were treated with complete disdain. The same thing occurred during the occupation of the Ruhr. Time and again, successive British Foreign Secretaries protested to the French Government that this step was illegal, but the only result was that the occupation continued as before.
  Then there is the case of China. China is a member of the League of Nations but the League has proved itself quite unable to tackle the Chinese at all. I do not want it to be thought that I am criticising the League. [HON. MEMBERS: "You are."] I am going to examine the reasons why the League is wholly ineffective. It appears that, when these statesmen meet at Geneva, they relegate all minor matters to the Council of the League and attempt to settle all major problems in private consultations. I propose to read to the Committee a description of the League of Nations by Signor Mussolini. I am not sure if I have it quite accurately but I think this is a nearly accurate rendering of the French words. He described the League as "A convent of laymen, fantastic, impotent and, for that very reason, dangerous." I ask the Foreign Secretary how can he expect the League to exert a powerful influence on important diplomatic questions when a leading member of the League holds that opinion of its efficacy? It is hopeless for the League to attempt to settle these questions unless it has the complete confidence of the leading statesmen of each country and it has not that confidence at the present time.
  I should like now to leave the question of general foreign policy because, after all, it is not the subject which we are supposed

  1801
  to be debating. We are supposed to be debating disarmament, and I propose to state, as briefly as possible, how I think that matter ought to be approached. Regarding land and naval forces, each nation has its own requirements, and the meetings and conferences held up to the present have sought to secure not so much disarmament as a balance of armaments. Each nation is striving to secure that strength in its armed forces which will enable it to defeat its enemies. I think the question ought to be approached in a different way. The easiest way would be to approach it in one field only. There are the naval forces, the land forces and the air forces. To begin with, we should try to confine the field of conflict to the naval and land forces.If we could secure the removal from the field of possible conflict, of air warfare, a great deal would be achieved. I suggest, however, that if we attempt to do so by allocating to each Power a certain air strength, whether in numbers, tonnage or gun-power, the effort will fail. I believe the only way to tackle it is by prohibiting air warfare altogether. The Under-Secretary will probably tell me that the time is not opportune, and that this is not the most favourable way of tackling the question. I am going to suggest a formula which, if put forward to a conference of European nations, would, I believe, find a great measure of accord. I hope the Under-Secretary will put the suggestion forward in responsible quarters—to the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary—that we ought to propose to Europe that every form of aerial warfare should be prohibited by international law. Doubtless I shall be met with the reply that the proposal is wholly impracticable, but at any rate it cannot be more impracticable than the efforts at Geneva to secure disarmament. It cannot be more impracticable than the efforts of the Preparatory Commission. I suggest that this should be put forward as a proposed rule:
  "No weapon or material of offence or capable of offence, whether bomb, poison gas, machine gun or any other such weapon or material, shall be mounted or carried in air craft for any purpose of peace or war."
  No doubt, objections will be raised to that proposal. It will be said that the use of air weapons should be allowed for aerial reconnaissance and for purposes of defence. It will also be said that the
  1802
  League of Nations should be allowed to have a punitive force of aircraft, in case it is desired to inflict punishment on some hostile tribe or to drop bombs on some natives who have refused to pay their taxes. One finds every conceivable objection put forward to a proposal of that kind; but it is the only way to tackle the problem. Similar objections can be put forward to partial proposals. What is the substantial objection which would prevent the nations from coming together and prohibiting altogether the use of the air weapon in warfare? I believe that to be a practicable proposition, and I believe no other proposition to restrict air warfare is practicable. The more these conferences and discussions go on, the more we find that attempts to restrict warfare by mean, petty and small conceptions are certain to fail.
  The question must be tackled in a more thorough and radical way. Some hon. Members above the Gangway take the view that the ideal way would be for this country to demobilise its armed forces altogether, and thus set a great and magnificent example to the world. I do not subscribe to that view. I respect the sincerity of those who hold it, but I believe it would not prove effective. I believe, however, if we could come together and prohibit warfare in the air altogether that would be a practical method. If the effort fails, what shall we lose? If this country had made every conceivable effort, and placed its cards on the table, surely it will not be in any weaker position if the hour comes when it is necessary to resort to war. It is just possible that the effort might succeed, and if it succeeded in the case of the air similar principles could be extended to the naval and land forces. Governments labour continually to secure the good will of the people of this country. There is nothing they can do in any field of political activity, which will more entitle them to the gratitude of the people than if they were able some day to go to the people and to say: "We have made, at any rate, a definite and practical step towards disarmament."
  Mr. DUFF COOPER: The hon. and gallant Member told us once or twice in the course of his speech that the subject of the Debate this afternoon is disarmament and he blamed the Foreign

  1803
  Secretary for not having dealt at greater length with disarmament. But the hon. and gallant Member is mistaken. The subject of the Debate this afternoon is not disarmament. The subject of Debate is really the very lengthy Resolution referred to by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Mr. Ponsonby). I forget the exact wording of that Resolution, but it urges a great many things on the Government, including the abolition of secret agreements and the adoption of a new line altogether in our foreign policy. That is the primary subject of our Debate, and the Foreign Secretary was, therefore, quite right in dealing at length with the considerations raised by the hon. Gentleman the Mover of the Resolution. However, the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones), although he said disarmament was the subject of Debate, was good enough to allow himself to deal with various other subjects, and he made what I can only describe as a mischievous attack on the League of Nations. He sought at some length to show the weakness and inefficacy of the League of Nations, and he went back to its furthest history, recounting every instance in which its activities had not been entirely successful. He concluded by saying that Signor Mussolini did not believe in the League of Nations—for which he bitterly reproached Signor Mussolini, having himself just given reasons why nobody should ever believe in it.
  Apparently Signor Mussolini agrees with the hon. and gallant Member and others, in disbelieving entirely in the League. That he ever used the words which the hon. and gallant Member attributed to him, however, I can hardly believe. "A convent of laymen" seems a very odd description to apply to the League of Nations. Convents are not usually designed for the use of men, either lay or clerical. But it does appear that the real leader of the Liberal party, with regard to its attitude towards the League of Nations, should now be Signor Mussolini. The hon. and gallant Member raised the kind of criticism against the League of Nations that has been raised by other people all over this country. I was surprised to hear anybody so well informed as the hon. and
  1804
  gallant Member bringing forward points of that kind. He asked how had the League of Nations dealt with China? How does he suggest that the League of Nations should deal with China? Everybody knows that it was absolutely impossible for the League of Nations to deal with China, and I fear I only waste the time of the Committee in replying to the point. In China there was civil war. In China there were many different parties, and only one of those parties is represented in the League of Nations—
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I did not intend to suggest that the League of Nations could have prevented civil war in China. What I did intend to suggest, though I may have done so imperfectly, was that the League of Nations might have taken some responsibility for protecting the rights of nationals of all countries when those rights were threatened by the actions of some body of Chinese.
  Mr. COOPER: It was not so much the rights of nationals that were threatened, but their lives and property and the only way to protect life and property when it comes to dealing with an uncontrolled mob, is by force and the League of Nations, having no force at its disposal, is utterly unable to deal with a situation of that kind. The hon. and gallant Member went on to make some interesting suggestions with regard to disarmament—at any rate, he put forward one suggestion. It is an important suggestions and I think deserves consideration, although I am not sure that the Foreign Secretary will yield to his representation that it should be put before the Prime Minister and receive the attention of the Cabinet. His suggestion was that all aerial war-ware should be declared illegal from this moment and that every Power should agree to that proposition. There is something to be said for that proposal, but there are important arguments against it. In the first place, aerial armaments are the cheapest and most efficacious, and, if you are going to abolish armaments, in my opinion you ought to begin by trying to abolish the most expensive and the most useless. Aerial armaments are the kind which it is most easy to conceal. You cannot

  1805
  very well conceal a Dreadnought. Dreadnoughts are apt to be apparent to the naked eye, but it is very easy for a large country to have large manufactures of aeroplanes practically unknown, and if as the hon. Member for Brightside said, we cannot rely on the good faith of nations in these matters, we have no kind of guarantee that any undertaking of that sort will be carried out.
  Then there is another important argument against the suggestion, which is that aeroplanes can very quickly be changed from a commercial purpose to a war purpose when the emergency arises. You cannot change an ordinary merchantman into a battleship at a moment's notice, but it is easy to change a commercial aeroplane into one that, if it will not shoot guns, will at any rate carry bombs and be able to drop them over undefended towns. That again is an important reason why that kind of disarmament alone would not be Very useful, but, to my mind, there is another and stronger argument still, and that is that the menace of air warfare in the future is the most awful menace of all. It is going to render the next war very much more terrible than any war which has gone before: it is going to produce more cruelty and horror and destruction, and upon a wider scale, than the submarine or any other weapon yet invented. It threatens to wipe out whole cities, to kill women and children, and to destroy all the monuments of civilisation. That, you will say, is a very strong reason for doing away with it. I am not sure that I agree. I think, on the other hand, that it is much more important not to diminish the horror of war, but to let the people realise to the full what the horror of war is. If you are really going to get that hatred of war, that determination not to go on with it, which I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) in thinking is the only way in which you will ever get disarmament, the more the people of the world realise what the horrors of war are likely to be, the more likely they are to make up their minds to have done with it.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My point is that if you have such horrors,
  1806
  people are afraid of them, and because they are afraid of them, they insist on armaments, and these very armaments breed wars.
  Mr. COOPER: You will never persuade them that those horrors do not exist. I remember 18 months ago, when there was an accident to a submarine, and a great many people wrote to the "Times" advocating the abolition of the submarine, and many still hold that that is one of the first steps we ought to take. One gallant Admiral wrote a letter to the "Times," of which I have forgotten the exact wording, but the gist of it was this: He was very strongly in favour of abolishing submarines, which he called those ungentlemanly, dirty weapons, so that naval warfare would once more be the jolly, gentlemanly pursuit which it used to be in the past. I think that is the wrong attitude to take, and I am not in favour of abolishing submarines or aeroplanes. I am in favour of letting the people realise the full horrors of war, for only so shall we get into their minds a determination to get rid of war.
  The hon. Member for Brightside, in opening the discussion, set before himself two different tasks. He attempted, in the first place, to draw as gloomy a picture as possible of the condition of Europe; and, in the second place, to show in some way that His Majesty's Government were largely to blame. In the first part of his task. I think the hon. Member was singularly successful. It is never very difficult to draw a gloomy picture of any state of affairs in this unhappy world, and he certainly filled in the dark patches to the satisfaction, I am sure, of those who agree with him, but in his attempt to show that the Government were in any way to blame, I think he was less successful. He divided his speech into various parts, and he dealt first with the situation between France and Germany. I agree that the affairs of those countries now concern us so nearly that we must discuss them on the Floor of this House, but I cannot go so far as to take the view that, because they concern us so nearly, therefore the nnfortunate Foreign Secretary has to explain every speech made by M. Poincaré and every article published in the "Tribuna." After all, whatever the "Tribuna" may say—and the actual words quoted from it were not very alarming; they were to the effect

  1807
  that the spirit of Locarno had already evaporated—I remember hearing 18 months ago the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) saying that the wine of Locarno had already turned sour. He forestalled the "Tribuna" by 18 months.
  Then the hon. Member went on to justify, to the best of his ability, the words of the Motion which he read to the Committee, urging the Government to give up secret and sectional agreements. A good deal has been said about sectional agreements, but how otherwise can anybody suppose that you can have agreements on all the myriad subjects with which the world is faced? Agreements must be sectional. The hon. Gentleman said that the state of Europe is much worse to-day than it was three years ago, when he and his friends were responsible for the conduct of foreign affairs. I think, on the other hand, it is very much better. I think the League of Nations itself is very much more powerful and stronger than it was at that time: and, after all, sectional agreements existed then just as they exist to-day, only there were not quite so many of them, because there had been three years less in which to make them. There were all the sectional agreements building up the Little Entente, the agreements between Germany and Russia, and the Treaty of Rapallo. Europe was full of sectional agreements then, and the only chancre is that a few have been added since that date owing to the lapse of time. If the three great Naval Powers of the world wish to come to an agreement with regard to the reduction of armaments, it is no use, and I suggest that it would he a waste of time, to wait for the adhesion of Switzerland. as the hon. Gentleman thinks. These matters must he done sectionally, one at a time, and it is in accordance with the true spirit of the League that they should be so done. All that the League says is that when the agreements are concluded, they should be published to the world and registered with the League, and that is a policy which we have loyally followed.
  The hon. Gentleman did not make any direct accusations with regard to secret agreements, because I am sure that in his heart he knows perfectly well that no such secret agreements exist. He is not
  1808
  speaking like many of the ignorant people who speak on foreign affairs; he knows very well what our commitments are, or what they were three years ago. He has had the whole of the secrets of the Foreign Office displayed before him, and he knows that the old bogey that haunts the minds of readers of modern detective stories about secret agreements is pure nonsense, and does not exist, and never has existed to any extent. If secret agreements are what the hon. Members opposite mean when they use the old shibboleth of secret diplomacy, I agree that secret diplomacy should be done away with, but I believe that it has been done away with, because there are not any secret agreements at the present time. If, on the other hand, secret diplomacy means secret negotiations, it is absolutely essential to the carrying on of diplomacy and of foreign affairs.
  The hon. Member for Brightside quoted a great deal from the Press. He quoted from the "Times" correspondent at Geneva. I wonder if he read the leading article of the "Times" this morning, commenting on the possible failure of the present Disarmament Conference. If so, he will have seen that in the opinion of the writer of that article—no doubt, an opinion formed as the result of advice received from Geneva—the main reason why that agreement has failed, and the main danger of any real harm resulting from that failure, are owing to the fact that the various Powers concerned had come to no preliminary secret agreements, had had no secret negotiations beforehand. They did not know where they were, and those steps ought to have been taken. They ought to have found out exactly how far each Power was going to go, or, if not exactly, how far to some extent; there ought to have been some exchange of views put forward, as there must be before you get to the stage at which you can openly speak in a public place. If you have M. Briand at Geneva speaking for France, and our Government have certain proposals to make to him, it is much better that they should know first what is likely to be the reception of those proposals. We should say, "Do you think you can meet us in any way?" and he would perhaps reply: "I should have to consult my colleagues. I should have to

  1809
  see what M. Poincaré has to say with regard to that before I can give you an answer." He would find out, and no doubt urge his views upon his own Prime Minister and Government, and then get authority to go a certain length; whereas, if the proposal has been made for the first time in public, he would have to say, "I cannot agree with that proposal," and more harm than good would be done.
  That is why we must have secret negotiations, and that is why the clamour against secret diplomacy is largely fictitious. I hope the present conference may still result in some good. I confess that I always have been pessimistic with regard to the results of Disarmament Conferences, but although there is the danger that they may, they should not do any harm even if they fail. They, at any rate, serve the purpose of ventilating—to use a fashionable word—the whole subject, of allowing people to form views, of putting before the world what the real difficulties are, and of allowing the people of the world to understand or to see, at any rate, what the point of view of the other country is; and it is only by getting the people of the world behind the abolition of war that you are ever going to get real disarmament. The hon. Member for Brightside introduced the people into his peroration, but I do not believe he is a very good judge of the wishes of the people, if I may say so with respect. I know that if he had supreme power in this country, he would abolish the Air Force and the Navy to-morrow, but if he did there would be a revolution the day after, because it would be a most unpopular step.
  It is only when you have the people really in support of that kind of policy, not in this country alone, but all over the world, that you are going to get any really satisfactory result, and I agree to a large extent with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull that we are inclined to approach this problem from the wrong end. We are inclined to use disarmament as a means to an end, whereas it is really a corollary that will naturally follow when the end is attained. I do not suggest that that end is in sight, and I am convinced that progress towards it must be very slow. It can only be done by education, by propaganda, and by
  1810
  changing the minds of men. I think we may, if we work together, and if we do not lose faith in the League of Nations, as hon. Members opposite seem to be inclined to do, if we continue to rely upon it in spite of many partial failures, and if we continue to work towards the end for which it was established, we may, in the far and dim future, though most of us will not live to see it happen, attain the end we have set before us.
  Mr. MOSLEY: With the final observation of the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper) I find myself in considerable agreement, and I think that most of us on these benches will agree that disarmament must be the corollary of a favourable European situation. But when the hon. Gentleman, in his earlier remarks, said that the present unfavourable position of Europe was in no way due to the activities of his leader, the Foreign Secretary, we, on these benches, began to find our paths diverge. Before I come to an examination of that proposition, I should like to comment briefly upon one or two of the contradictions which the hon. Gentleman imagined he had discovered in speeches made from this side of the House. He began by finding, as he thought, a contradiction in the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones), who pointed out that the League of Nations was at present weak, and that Signor Mussolini, the friend and ally of the Conservative party, did not believe in the League of Nations. The hon. Member for Oldham replied by saying that Signor Mussolini naturally held the same view as the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney, and that if the League was in fact weak, there was no reason to believe in it. But the real fact is that this new alliance between Italy and the present Government of Britain has reduced the League to impotence, and naturally these statesmen do not believe in the instrument which they themselves have done so much to destroy.
  Major PRICE: Can you give us particulars of the alliance?
  Mr. MOSLEY: The hon. Member shall have full particulars later on, but he had better begin by the very helpful exercise of reading the speeches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which will improve both his information and his powers of speech.
  Major PRICE: Speeches are not alliances.
  Mr. MOSLEY: I am sorry, but I cannot follow the hon. Member's not very audible observation any further. The hon. Member for Oldham, whose interesting speech I was endeavouring to animadvert upon, strained our credulity rather too far, I think, when he pretended that secret understandings were confined entirely to preliminary discussions on such subjects as disarmament. The non. Member said, "If disarmament proposals have to be made, how much better that there should be some preliminary discussion between the parties principally concerned." Of course, no one in the world would dissent from the holding of such preliminary discussions, but such a situation as that is very different from the kind of secret alliance or agreement which we are told does not exist; just as before the War we were told that secret agreements and alliances which envisaged military preparation and co-operation did not exist. Nobody knows better than the hon. Member that even if those agreements do not exist to-day—and on that subject, naturally, we can have no information—they certainly existed in the past and they have been exposed to the full view of mankind.
  I should perhaps best deal with the further observations of the hon. Member in referring to the speech of the Foreign Secretary, whose ground was largely traversed by him. The Foreign Secretary expressed the fear that his speech would convey a false impression elsewhere. I venture to say that the Foreign Secretary need have no alarm. His speech will not convey any impression anywhere. It is tragic that at a moment of such gravity in a European situation of considerable menace there should be not only no lead from the Foreign Secretary of Britain but no coherent expression of policy or of opinion. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary complained that my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) had indulged in a good Victorian cry. I did not notice this tendency, but that though a Victorian cry is not a pleasant pastime, it is not so dangerous as Victorian complacency and we had an overdose of Victorian complacency from the Foreign Secretary this afternoon. That complacency has resulted not only in the tears but in the blood of subsequent generations in the
  1812
  past, and it is a pastime in which we cannot afford to indulge in the present situation.
  The Foreign Secretary went on to attack my hon. Friend because he had ventured to refer to the foreign press and the almost unanimous view of the foreign press—a mistaken view, I think—that the right hon. Gentleman is engaged in some vast conspiracy, conducted with singular ability, for the encircling and enmeshing of certain Powers in Europe. The Foreign Secretary made light of the opinion of the foreign press, but I venture to say that when an opinion is held almost unanimously in the press of Europe, the Foreign Secretary cannot afford to laugh at it. If all the press says that Britain is preparing for war, the mere fact that they say it is likely to lead to war. In foreign policy it is not enough to have an evil intention, it is necessary also not to create the impression and the suspicion that you have that intention. Whether or not the right hon. Gentleman entertains the malevolence of those designs—and upon that matter I am not competent to adjudicate—at any rate he has by the clumsiness of his policy succeeding in creating the almost universal impression that he does hold those designs; and I will show later, by extracts from the most responsible papers of foreign countries, such paper as "Le Temps," practically the official organ of France, that that view is held and is stated frequently in the press of foreign countries.
  When my hon. Friend mentioned a series of sectional alliances in Europe, the right hon. Gentleman seemed surprised at first to hear that any such thing was occurring, and he rose at the Box and said: "What are these alliances to which reference is being made?" My hon. Friend promptly read out a list of 12 to the Foreign Secretary, who presumably might have had some information on those subjects and have held this matter in mind. When he was informed of what my hon. Friend had in mind, the right hon. Gentleman read the published terms of those Treaties to prove that they were quite harmless and, if anything, beneficial documents. He said these Treaties refer to amity and friendship. Has he ever heard of a Treaty formed for the promotion of war? Has he ever seen a Treaty which declared to the world that it was an alliance between

  1813
  two Powers for the purpose of making war upon another Power? Every Treaty that has ever been made has been a defensive Treaty. The Triple Alliance was a defensive Treaty, the Entente was a defensive understanding, but the creation of these understandings and these alliances, ostensibly for peaceful purposes does in fact, as is well known, and now universally admitted, lead to that condition of suspicion and distrust which inevitably brings war in its train.
  My hon. Friend did not refer to one Treaty which is very typical of these Treaties, and the words of that particular Treaty do not contain many expressions of amity and friendship. There was a Treaty between Italy and Rumania—to which, I think, my hon. Friend did not refer—agreed upon in September, 1926. That Treaty, according to the "Times," was to defend the mutual interests of the two countries if threatened, and if their interests were threatened they wore going to take measures to safeguard them. That may be amity and friendship between Italy and Rumania, but it is a new and very significant development in Balkan politics. I do not know how much amity and friendship is contained in that Treaty towards other countries in the vicinity of those two nations. It is really a straining of our gullibility too far to ask us to believe that if a treaty is formed which contains the words, "amity and friendship," no sinister purpose of any kind can lurk behind it. Perhaps our credulity was strained even further when the Foreign Secretary said that between him and Signor Mussolini was a coincidence of purpose—I took his words down—in the maintenance of peace and in the support of the League. To tell this Committee that the purpose of Signor Mussolini, as we may judge his purpose by his public utterances, is the maintenance of peace and the support of the League, and that in that purpose there is a coincidence with the views of the present Foreign Secretary, is really to treat Parliament and the country, if I may say so, with derision.
  What is the main indictment, as I see it, of the policy of the Foreign Secretary The indictment is that, whether in fact or only in appearance, he has created the impression that, he is using Italy, and the Fascist regime which
  1814
  rules in that country, as an instrument for the encircling and the overthrow of Soviet Russia. I know that in Debates on foreign affairs it has been the custom in the past not to state these things bluntly, but when they are being stated daily in the foreign Press, when they are believed not only by masses of the people abroad but by very distinguished men in European countries, there is nothing to be gained by concealing these fears and these suspicions which have arisen in conection with British policy. It is far better to have the matter out, to let the right hon. Gentleman make his defence and, if possible, to explode these fears. I would point out to him that Ministers in his own Government, if not he himself, have very materially assisted those fears. First of all there was the notorious utterance of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies. I think that utterance is well within the memory of the Committee, and that I need not read it again. It was a reference to Locarno as a bloc being formed against Soviet Russia. I believe that the Under-Secretary for the Colonies did take steps on that occasion to throw some doubt upon the actual report which appeared in the "Observer," but it certainly created a most deplorable impression upon the Continent of Europe. We need not, however, rely on those comparatively old instances of this kind of thing. We have our perennially discreet Home Secretary, who on 30th June last was reported in the "Times" as saying this:
  "He thought the time was approaching when many of the nations of the world would come to the conclusion that Communism in its extreme form was an enemy of mankind."
  Then there was applause from the Conservative benches:
  "He was not sure but that all nations of the world in the near future would have to combine to stamp out this form of belief and propaganda."
  When a responsible Minister, with the applause of the Conservative back benchers, makes a speech like that, utterly unchecked by the Government of which he is a member, not repudiated or rebuked by the Foreign Secretary, how can we complain if suspicion is entertained not only in Russia but throughout the foreign Press and throughout the Chancellories of Europe?

  1815
  When we record the belief that Italy is being used as an instrument, we have some grounds on which to proceed. Our first apparent relationship with Italy after the present Government took office was in the support which Italy gave us over the question of Mosul. That support, again according to the foreign Press, was repaid not very much later by the support which we gave to Italy on the Abyssinian question, and we were so unfortunate in that policy followed in conjunction with Italy as to antagonise Turkey as well as Russia. To those two countries has now to be added renascent China, which we have already antagonised, and Japan, whose friendship we have lost to a large extent by the building of a foolish and provocative dockyard at Singapore. [Laughter.] Really, when we hear the laughter which emanates from the profundity of the hon. Gentleman's information, I would say that it is not necessary for him to read the Japanese papers, he can read translations into European papers of articles and speeches made by Japanese statesment and journalists which entirely support the point I have just made.
  The right hon. Gentleman, after two years of his policy, has succeeded in creating a block of nations including Russia, Turkey, China and Japan resulting in antagonising the nations of the West. That was a situation envisaged by the Kaiser who actually painted a picture illustrating a war between East and West with himself standing at the head of the nations of the West in shining armour. A minor alteration has now been made in the central figure of that picture, and in place of the Kaiser in shining armour we have the Foreign Secretary in shining monocle. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] But where the Kaiser failed, the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded. For 20 years German diplomacy strove to bring about this situation. In two years the Foreign Secretary has created a clean division between the nations of the East and West, and he has succeeded in driving these Eastern nations together in the bonds of a common outlawry. Having succeeded in forming this Eastern block, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to re-divide the nations of the West. His use of Italy in his anti-Russian policy
  1816
  led to one of the most serious features of the whole situation, which is our estrangement with France. Our first dealings with Turkey over Mosul were followed by a treaty between France and Turkey. In the years that follow we find a steadily increasing tension between France and Italy, a tension which it is no good disguising because it is notorious, and this fact has been drawn attention to, not only by the "Manchester Guardian" but by many French newspapers. There has been a growing tension between France and Italy which has made it increasingly difficult for Britain to support Italy and all her projects without antagonising France.
  I am sorry to say that these tendencies have developed, the Foreign Secretary has lost almost entirely the good feeling which the previous Foreign Secretary brought about between this country and France, and he has done this at a moment when the mollifying factor of British influence was so much required. These tendencies have reached their climax in the Treaty of Tirana and the situation which arose from that Treaty. The Foreign Secretary has denied that during the Leghorn conversations he was told the terms of that treaty, and, of course, we accept his explanations. That, however, is not the real charge. The charge made from these benches and in the French Press was that the right hon. Gentleman was informed of the principles of that treaty and the general tendency and outline of that policy, and he gave his approval to the advance of that policy, and an assurance that it would not meet with any restraint or antagonism in the policy of this country.
  That has been stated almost universally. It has been stated in the French newspapers and the "Manchester Guardian," and a specific denial has never been forthcoming. The words of the right hon. Gentleman's reply can very easily be held to exclude the charge which has been made in the foreign Press. The quarrel between Italy and Jugo-Slavia is intimately connected with the foreign policy of France, and this incident has created suspicion in France in regard to the whole foreign policy of this country. You cannot have such a relationship as that which now exists between the foreign policy of this country

  1817
  and Italy without creating disquiet in France in the present relationship between those two countries. As long as the Chancellor of the Exchequer goes to Italy and makes such extraordinary speeches, you cannot be surprised that disquiet in France increases. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in Rome learnt all the wisdom of the Duce except the vital secret of how to control his followers, and that was the talisman which I wish he had brought back with him. That was the one secret which was not revealed to him. This seemingly insensate support of Italy has led to the most serious situation in Europe. It has already led to the loss of our influence with France, and we cannot now get France to expedite the evacuation of the Rhineland.
  In this way we lose the grip of our influence on French policy which we used to have just when French policy was becoming more liberal in its tendency. Consequently, we have not had the opportunity of using that influence to promote a permanent foundation for European peace. Now that opportunity seems to have passed away altogether, and the liberal tendency in French policy is beginning to suffer from a retrograde influence. It may well be that the support we have given to the Fascist policy may prove very greatly to have affected the relationship of Germany and France. In European affairs, with their present inter-connection and complication, a mistaken policy pursued in one part of Europe has a reaction over the whole It can be argued that this extraordinary policy of using Italy in this way has led to a recrudescent of European difficulties which seemed to be passing away some few years ago. I do not believe myself that the Foreign Secretary is really the Machiavelli he is represented as being in the European Press, a man of extraordinary power and ability, coldly plotting and scheming to enmesh Russia. That is not our homely conception of the Foreign Minister. It is rather a comical picture of His Majesty's present advisers. I leave to others to determine whether they are Machiavellian in their intentions, for my part I rest assured in the belief that they never would have the wit to execute them. This hopping from one side of the road to the other is a pathetic rather than a sinister spectacle. This is not the wisdom
  1818
  of the serpent. This is the inconsequence of the rabbit. Nevertheless, we have to admit that the muddler and the blunderer is often more dangerous than the criminal. Although he may be a man with the best intentions, he may arrive at a yet worse result. When a Minister pursuing such a blundering policy leads, the world may believe that he is a brilliant and clever schemer, but he is really the most dangerous kind of statesman we can have at such a juncture to direct the foreign affairs of this country.
  It is really useless for the Foreign Secretary to argue that the condition of Europe to-day is better than it was when he first took office. When the Labour Government came out of office, the age-long quarrel between France and Germany was appeased. The reparations problem had been reduced to manageable proportions, although it was not entirely solved. When the right hon. Gentleman took office he found that sectional alliances and understandings were being rapidly overcome, the isolators of Russia and pariah countries was destroyed, and they were restored to the comity of Nations. [Interruption]. Do hon. Members opposite believe that the relationship between Russia and this country was worse in 1924 than it is to-day? Are we in a more favourable position in regard to our dealings with Russia to-day than we were a few years ago? [Laughter]. Unless we are, that laughter has no meaning, but I am always ready to admit that Conservative laughter may have no meaning. What I have stated is no overdrawn case of the situation in Europe when Labour vacated power. According to the Foreign Secretary's admission this afternoon, we have now sectional alliances, regional understandings, and 12, 13 or 14 sectional treaties have been signed since the right hon. Gentleman took office which have gradually spread over the whole map of Europe. The authority of the League of Nations has been undermined and the Protocol was destroyed by the present Government. The conditions which should precede any practical scheme of disarmament, namely, arbitration or security, have been destroyed by the first speech made by the Foreign Secretary in which he stated that this country would not submit to arbitration where its interests were concerned. That is the situation

  1819
  which the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded in bringing about.
  It is always difficult to ascribe the exact measure of responsibility which should be meted out to any individual statesman or any individual country, but this at least we may claim, that the fall in British prestige is due to the vacillating lead which directed British policy, and wherever you look in Europe you find that the Foreign Secretary has thrown the weight of British authority into the scales of reaction. The nations of Europe will remain in this unhappy position until we have a Government in this country that is prepared to give that lead in foreign affairs which Europe expects from the Government of Britain.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: The hon. Member who has just sat down has delivered a very entertaining speech which I think might do a certain amount of harm if taken seriously upon the Continent of Europe. But I am perfectly certain that it will not be. He appears to be almost obsessed by the idea that we have got an alliance with Italy. Let me assure him that such an alliance only exists in his own fevered imagination. I happened to be in Rome at the time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his famous speech which was quoted by my hon. Friend. I can assure him that nothing in that speech, if it was carefully read, could give rise to any apprehension that an alliance existed between this country and Italy. There was only one remark in it which might have caused pain to the hon. Member, and that was when the right hon. Gentleman made some forcible comments on the subject of Leninism. But the right hon. Gentleman has never at any period concealed his views on the subject of Leninism, and he was merely repeating what he has often stated before and since, namely, that he was not, in any way partial to that particular form of government.
  Afterwards, the hon. Gentleman proceeded to attack the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper), because he had accused the hon. Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones) of contradicting himself, but really the hon. Member for South Hackney, having expressed the hope that the Committee
  1820
  would not for one moment think he was criticising or intending to criticise the League of Nations, proceeded to say that in his opinion the League was wholly ineffective, not partially ineffective or functioning badly at the moment, but wholly ineffective. It seems to me, if I were to say that the speech of the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Mosley) was wholly ineffective, he would be fully justified in saying I was criticising it, and I think the hon. Member for South Hackney did contradict himself in that respect. Then the hon. Member said that it was a very menacing fact that so many treaties had been signed between individual countries in the last few years. Does he really expect the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary to come down and in some way stop a foreign Power from signing a treaty which is properly registered with the League of Nations? The thing is impossible. In what wily is the right hon. Gentleman responsible for these treaties, even if they are a menace—and I disagree in nine cases out of 10 that they are—to the peace of Europe?
  The hon. Gentleman went on to reprove the right hon. Gentleman for not reproving the Home Secretary for saying something which apparently conflicted with the right hon. Gentleman's policy. I seem to remember an occasion in which another Home Secretary did that. Perhaps it occurs more or less frequently in regard to Home Secretaries, but there was an earlier occasion when the Home Secretary in the Socialist Government expressed himself on foreign affairs in a manner which caused great dismay all over the country, and I think it quite frequently happens that Members of the Government have bursts of ardour on subjects which particularly appeal to them, and which cannot always be controlled. Then the hon. Member painted a very lurid picture of a great Eastern bloc, which he said the right hon. Gentleman had built up against this country and talked of the right hon. Gentleman leading the forces of Western civilisation against the East. That is surely childish. The whole of the Liberal Members and a good many Labour Members in this House have expressed profound admiration for the patience and skill with which the Foreign Secretary has handled the Chinese problem from the very beginning. He has handled it with such

  1821
  skill as to commend it to the admiration practically of the civilised world. The only other thing I will say about the hon. Member's speech is that I suppose we ought to be grateful to him in that he at any rate accuses the Foreign Secretary of blundering rather than of carrying out of a deliberate Machiavellian doctrine.
  On the other hand, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) made a very optimistic speech and told us he was convinced about a great many things. I wish I shared all his convictions, because they were very often optimistic. However, I am disposed to agree with the hon. and gallant Member in so far as I believe also that Holland and Switzerland would undoubtedly enter a conference for naval disarmament with considerable enthusiasm. I think he was quite right in expressing hopes that such a conference would come to a successful conclusion. But the hon. Member for the Brightside Division (Mr. Ponsonby) was very pessimistic indeed. He painted a sombre picture of the present condition of Europe and said that we were now standing under the shadow of war and that we were basking in a false sense of security similar to that existing before 1914. If we were really in that false sense of security before 1914 and if, as he himself said, the policy of the Liberal Government in concealing the real facts, was so largely responsible for the War, I can only express my surprise that he, who was a Member of that Government, did not attempt to raise the curtain and show the danger.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: He was not a Member of the Government.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: He was in this House supporting it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Private Secretary to the Prime Minister."] The hon. Member for Bright-side ended that speech by saying that he hoped we should in the future trust the people of Europe to prevent war. If we are to put our trust in the mob—that is his own expression, which I use—I think the chances of peace will be very few and far between, because surely it is axiomatic, and agreed by all historians, that the greatest danger to the peace of the world is a democracy that is allowed to run riot. The only
  1822
  hope is that the leading statesmen will so control the democratic ardour and fervour of the nations of Europe that they will be able to check tempers from rising and passions from being allowed free play.
  I should like to ask the Committee to direct its attention for one moment to the present position in regard to disarmament. What is the present position? We have for the last 10 years given the lead to the whole world. Take the case of the Army. Nothing like the reduction we have made has been seen in the history of the world. We have demobilised air army of 4,000,000 men until we have an army which is barely sufficient for exercising the functions of a police force. We have an Air Force which is barely capable of defending London from Continental attack—London which is the arterial centre of the Empire.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Not that.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I bow to the superior knowledge of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Then we come to the Navy, which has demobilised from 42 Dreadnought to 15 Dreadnought battleships. I do not think anythink like that—if you take the whole fighting sphere, including the Navy, Army and Air Force—has been done by any other country in the world. I only want to make one brief reference to the Geneva Conference. The hon. and gallant Member referred to the Conference, and I share his surprise and dismay that even after he had personally recommended it to the President of the United States its course should not have been so smooth as we at one time hoped. However, the fact remains that the Conference is in jeopardy. I beg the Government not to give way to the United States upon the subject of small cruisers. These cruisers cannot in any conceivable circumstances he used as weapons of offence. They cannot be used against the battle fleets of any Power in the world nor in conjunction with a battle fleet except for the purpose of securing information. The only thing for which they are of the slightest use is protecting our trade.
  The CHAIRMAN (Mr. James Hope): I do not know what exactly has passed, but it is hardly relevant to introduce

  1823
  purely naval matters into this Debate, particularly if the hon. Member who proposes to do so has not given notice to some representative of the Admiralty.
  Mr. DALTON: On that point of Order, may I mention that the Foreign Secretary did refer to this Conference, and I hope your ruling is not so narrow as to prevent us from expressing opinions about it.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey LockerLampson): On that point of Order. While it is perfectly true the Foreign Secretary did refer in very general terms to the discussions taking place at this Conference, he also said—and it was generally agreed—that he could not possibly deal with what is going on at the Conference at the present moment.
  The CHAIRMAN: The question with which the hon. Gentleman was dealing may be a matter of policy, but what I was referring to was that it would be impossible to debate naval questions on this Vote, and that they must be deferred to the Admiralty Vote. There is also the more important point that it should be so deferred if Members have not given any notice to the representative of the Admiralty.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I am quite ready to leave the subject now. The only reason I mentioned it was that the Conference had been referred to at considerable length by the Foreign Secretary, who spoke upon the subject of cruisers for five or 10 minutes, and gave reasons why we ought to hold out on that subject.
  The CHAIRMAN: If that be so, I will not stop the hon. Member, except to ask him not to go further than is really necessary in introducing any fresh naval technical matter.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I was only covering ground that had been traversed before, and I am quite ready to leave the subject. My only object in touching the matter was to show that we had been doing more than any other country in the world in the matter of disarmament. There are, of course, many problems in Europe today. There are the problems of the Balkans and Poland and other countries
  1824
  which will take patience and skill and time to solve, but which, I am perfectly certain, can be solved with a spirit of good will. But there are two fundamental problems in foreign affairs which overshadow all the rest and which, perhaps, stand more in the way of real genuine disarmament, because policy must always precede active disarmament itself. The first problem is that of France and Germany, and that resolves itself at the moment into the question of the military occupation of Germany. I do not want to say anything about that, because on these matters one has to speak very carefully, but I do beg the right hon. Gentleman to realise that he is assured of the support of the whole House if he will use every endeavour to terminate that occupation at the earliest possible moment. As long as Germany or any portion of it is occupied by Allied troops, there is bound to be a sense of uneasiness, insecurity and resentfulness on the part of Germany, which it is vital we should clear away at the earliest possible moment.
  I want just to refer to one other subject which is even more delicate than the subject of France and Germany. I apologise for having to come back to it, but I will detain the Committee only briefly upon it. There is no doubt that, as long as diplomatic relations between London and Moscow remain raptured, the international situation is bound to remain also uneasy. It is quite useless to have any extensive plan for disarmament either by land or air so long as we have no relations with Russia whatsoever, because, unless you get Russia to come into a Disarmament. Conference and agree to the limitation of armaments, it is useless to talk about the matter at all. Russia has one of the most formidable Armies and Air Forces in the world today, fortified by ever new modern invention, and, so long as that goes on and unless we can get her to come in, it is childish to talk about disarmament either on land or in the air.
  I am optimistic enough to think that there has been a slight improvement in the situation with regard to Russia, and put it down to a certain extent to this: In the past, the Russian question has been a question at issue between the political parties of this country, but, since the break with Russia, the question

  1825
  has been less bitterly debated, and has become less a question at issue between the Socialist party and ourselves. It is a very noticeable fact that the Labour party have not lately made great political capital in the country, so far as one can see, out of the break with Russia. I do not know whether it is that the fact that the Bolshevist Government deliberately murdered 20 people as a gesture to the civilised world has given the Labour party an insight into the somewhat astonishing mentality of the Soviet Government, but the fact remains that they have not come to the support of the Soviet Government lately to anything like the extent that they used to. The clash between the parties is less severe, and, simultaneously, the Bolshevists have directed far more bitter attacks upon the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Purcell) than they have upon the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. That is all to the good.
  Before we can ever get a satisfactory solution of this Russian problem, we must, as a nation, present to the Bolshevists and to the Soviet Government a united front. It must be remembered that, whenever a question like this is brought into the arena of party politics, every sort of exaggeration and every sort of distortion takes place on both sides. Both sides magnify any evidence that there may be. According to the Socialist party, nothing that we can possibly do is ever right, and, far more, nothing that they can do is ever wrong. When you get two political parties fighting over an international question, a question of foreign policy, as has not been the custom in the political history of this country for the last 100 years, you are bound to get an unsatisfactory handling of the matter. I am hopeful and sanguine enough to believe that in the very near future we shall be able in this country to present a united front to the Russian Government, and to lay down, not as a party but as a nation, the terms on which we will have those people back. Those who believe in the possibility of a coup d'état in Russia occupy a somewhat different position. They would, naturally, be anxious to bring to bear upon Russia as much pressure, economic and, if necessary, military pressure, as possible, but, for myself, I do not think that, owing to geographical
  1826
  considerations as much as anything else, such a coup d'état is possible. Therefore, if we do not conceive of any such possibility, we must pin our faith to the gradual evolution of Russia and the development of trade with that country.
  I am very glad to see that Lord Birkenhead, who recently made in another place a speech which caused some of us apprehension—which has, happily, turned out to be unfounded — has recently made two speeches in the country in which he laid it down that the attitude of His Majesty's Government is that they do not contemplate, and would not ever contemplate, keeping Russia permanently out of the pale of the civilised comity of nations, that they do not contemplate with equanimity—as no one who knows can possibly do—the position of an indefinite breach of all diplomatic relationships between that enormous country and the British Empire. Therefore, I would beg the Government to make it quite clear that, if and when the Russians announce to their own people, as they have never yet done, that their policy is going to be to keep absolutely clear of the British Empire and of all foreign countries, and, further, that they will abandon and renounce the policy of world revolution—and if we can announce as a nation that, when they make it their business to create such an atmosphere as will render a further conference possible between Russia and this country we shall take part in it—we should take a further step towards disarmament and towards a general political stability which does not exist at the present time, and I believe that ultimately we should get them back, and that they might in the end be induced to come back on those terms.
  I would beg the Opposition to back up the Government in any statement of policy that the Government may lay down. If the Government say, "We will not have these people back unless and until we can get undertakings, in which we can believe, that they will leave us alone," and if the Opposition go against the Government and send their representatives to the Soviet Government behind the backs of our Government, how can you expect the Soviet Government to believe that we mean what we say, or

  1827
  that they will not get easier terms out of the Opposition if and when they come into power? The only way in which we can get a quick settlement of this problem, and bring Russia back to her senses, is to stop quarrelling amongst ourselves. M. Tchitcherin, the Russian Foreign Secretary, said the other day, in an interview with a correspondent of the "Daily Express" in Moscow, that, with regard to Anglo-Russian relations, he saw no way out. If we make it clear that we will do business with them—both economic business and political business—if they leave us alone, he can adopt that policy, and set about creating an atmosphere that will make a treaty possible. There the path is opening out.
  These are the running sores, as it seems to me, that have to be removed before we can get any real disarmament or any real political stability in Europe. Some of us believe that, unless and until we can get some form of economic agreement between this country and Western Europe, between Germany and France, it will be almost impossible for our heavy industries to survive in the future. We must come to some international trading agreement, and reach some international co-operation, but political stability is a condition precedent to any economic alliance; it is the necessary foundation upon which we can proceed to recreate a new European civilisation; and, surely, for the next 50 or 60 years, the recreation of a new European civilisation and economic polity upon the ashes of 1918 must be the chief task of British statesmanship.
  Mr. DALTON: The hon. Member who has just spoken began a very entertaining speech, with parts of which I found myself in agreement, by apologising for his official chief, and at the same time rebuking, very properly as I consider, the Home Secretary for indiscreet utterances on international affairs. Later on, after having made a plea, of which I hope the Under-Secretary will take note, for the evacuation of the Rhineland at the earliest possible moment—which was pressed also by my hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) in his opening remarks, but was not dealt with by the Foreign Secretary in his reply—the hon. Member returned to the question of disarmament, with which we on
  1828
  this side are primarily, though not exclusively, concerned in this Debate. The hon. Member suggested that we had carried out a very miraculous work of disarmament since 1918. He spoke of the reduction of the Army by some 4,000,000 men, and corresponding reductions in the Navy; but he did not seem to take account of the fact that the War was at an end in 1918, that the War, so far as fighting was concerned, had then been won, and that the pretended necessity for these armaments, consequently, no longer existed. It is evidently quite misleading to make any comparison between the armaments which we have now and those which were piled up towards the close of that long Period of world war.
  The hon. Member would have been on more plausible ground had he dwelt upon the reduction that was made in our expenditure and in the strength of the Navy by the Washington Treaty of 1921, which did indeed, according to an answer which was given to me in the House by the First Lord of the Admiralty on the 22nd November last, result in a reduction of from £50,000,000 to £80,00,000 in naval expenditure spread over five years. It is for that reason, bearing in mind the possibility which was disclosed at the Washington Conference, that we are particularly concerned to see that there is no similar prospect of reductions resulting from the present conference at Geneva, nor, so far as we have yet gone, from the larger League of Nations Conference which will also be taking place at Geneva. With the heavy pressure of taxation of which hon. Members on the other side complain, and with the great restriction upon desirable social expenditure which we on this side consider to be an even more unsatisfactory feature of our present finances, it is not surprising that we should sometimes view disarmament largely as a means of economy. An even important aspect is even as a means of peace in the world and security for all nations. The present insecurity is due, in the minds of the Government of each nation, to other people's armaments, from which we on this side deduce the very simple conclusion that perfect security will only be attained when no nation is afraid of the armaments of

  1829
  any other nation, when, in other words, total disarmament of all nations on land and sea and in the air is secured by international agreement.
  It is admitted that that is a goal which must be reached by stages. I only hope that hon. Members on the other side who may be sceptical with regard to the possibility of reaching it will not cause those stages to be longer than is necessary. That is our ultimate objective, and it is the only objective which will ultimately give security. I agree with the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper) that to attempt to regulate war, to turn it into a polite parlour game played according to gentlemanly, old-fashioned rules, is no stage at all towards what we desire. It is false sentimentality to believe that poison gas is any less defensible or any more cruel than high explosive shells. Proposals such as that, to allow armaments to continue to exist or war to be waged, but to say that certain weapons should be taboo, seems to me to be an entirely false line of advance, and I associate myself entirely with what was said by the hon. Member for Oldham in that regard.
  If I may turn for a moment to the Coolidge Conference which is proceeding at Geneva, bearing in mind your ruling, Mr. Hope, about technicalities, we may none the less say that we are seriously perturbed at the course which events have taken at Geneva. We are seriously perturbed at the apparent failure of the British and American delegations to get down to some common measure of agreement. I do not here seek to apportion any blame, but I do note that admirals have done a good deal of talking to the Press at Geneva, and I venture to say that that is an unwelcome departure from what we have been led to understand to be the tradition of the so-called silent Service. I suggest that admirals may be very good expert servants, but are very bad dictators of policy. Policy ought to be in the hands of the Government, and it should be expounded by the representatives of the Government and not by admirals. In that view I am supported by no less an authority than Lord Lee of Fareham, who wrote a notable letter which appeared in the "Times" of the 9th of this month, and which is well worth
  1830
  consideration by His Majesty's Government. He wrote:
  "This question of the relations between England and America is far too serious to be left to the naval experts on either side of the Atlantic,"
  and earlier in his letter he wrote:
  "As between England and America the question of the relative naval strengths is mainly psychological. Neither Government, and certainly neither people, contemplate or are prepared to conceive the possibility of war against each other.…In my view, therefore, it is superfluous … to balance meticulously the relative 'requirements' of the British or American navies in cruisers or any other class of ship."
  I read in the "Times" this morning that the Foreign Secretary, realising the way in which the British delegation at Geneva, along with the American and Japanese delegations, are drifting into a dangerous impasse, is himself taking a hand in the game, and I hope, though I am not confident, that the result will be that we shall find that the Coolidge Conference at Geneva will not be entirely without fruit. I think it is, perhaps, desirable to say that there have also been sinister rumours, which I hope are not true, although, again, I have no confidence in the matter, that agents of armament firms have been at Geneva, and have been busy feeding the Press there with lies. I am not referring to any one country, either with regard to its Press or with regard to its agents; I merely say that there is this rumour, and that it is all the more to be regretted that, at an earlier stage of these proceedings, a bolder policy was not announced on behalf of the Government, and that there was not greater clearness in the presentation of their policy, so as to prevent unscrupulous misrepresentations of it in the Press of other lands. At last, this morning, in a leading article in the "Times," the interesting question is asked, "What are these armaments for, and against whom are they to be employed?" The "Times" reminds us of the often forgotten fact that before the War the German Fleet was the excuse for the maintenance of the British Navy on an enormous scale and at high cost. At the present time, the "Times" reminds us, the German Navy has practically ceased to exist, and we are back, therefore, at the question, "Against whom are these enormous and costly naval armaments being maintained, either in this country, the United States

  1831
  or Japan?" That question has not yet been answered. If it were to be answered frankly, I think it would be found that there is no immediate danger to this country rendering a Navy on an enormous scale necessary, and consequently very large all-round cuts could be made without any serious damage, or any at all, to our security.
  If I may turn to the League of Nations Conference, the Preparatory Commission met and achieved little except a clear statement of disagreement last April. It is to meet again in November, and therefore we have a few months in which to endeavour to mobilise public opinion on this question and to warn it of the possibility of the breakdown of that Commission when it meets in the autumn. We have made very slow progress with disarmament under the auspices of the League. It is more than eight years since we signed the Covenant of the League pledging ourselves, in common with the other members of the League, to follow the lead which we have imposed upon Germany and the other defeated Powers. We have been following in many cases in the wrong direction, increasing armaments rather than reducing them, in the years which have passed, particularly as regards aircraft. Next November it appears likely that Russian representatives will attend the Commission, They have been invited, and I understand have accepted. I hope they may be there, and I hope their presence may be helpful. [Interruption.] I am, perhaps, not so sceptical about it as the hon. Member who laughs. I am very glad the Russians and the Swiss have at last settled their very foolish quarrel, discreditable to both, which has hitherto prevented the Russians from attending any conference at Geneva. That obstacle has been removed by the belated good sense of the two parties concerned. The work that will have to be done in November is indicated by the Report that has been submitted to the Foreign Secretary by the British representative at the Preparatory Commission, and I hope, although there are one or two technical points on which I wish to say a few words, that will be brought into order through the fact that these matters are dealt with in this Report by Lord Cecil.
  1832
  The first point that we want to realise—and if we do we shall realise how slowly we are moving—is that in November we shall only be asked to prepare a skeleton, into which no figures will be fitted, for development into a subsequent treaty. None the less, some of the bones of the skeleton have great importance. I regret very much that no attempt is apparently to be made to limit war material directly. German war material was limited strictly, and substantially effectively, in the Treaty of Versailles. Tanks, large guns, which are visible objects and cannot be concealed, were prohibited, and I regret very much that there is to be no attempt made in the forthcoming Conference to forbid the manufacture of tanks or guns of more than a certain size, and in other ways to impose direct limits upon war material. In the second place, I regret very much that the British representative at the Preparatory Commission should have put up opposition to the proposal for a Budgetary limitation on expenditure on armaments. A number of nations there, the French in particular, were very anxious that this form of limitation should be adopted. It appears to me that such a limitation s an essential part of a watertight scheme of disarmament, although it is only one element in it, and I regret very much that we have in the earlier discussions taken what seems to me the wrong and reactionary side in the controversy.
  I hope it may not be too late for us to reverse our view on that point and support the French view, and, in exchange for that support, I hope, get the French to come rather nearer to us on certain other matters that are in dispute between us. The dispute as between total tonnage in the limitation of naval armaments and tonnage by class is one in which it seems to me that our contentions are substantially right. Limitation by class is much more important, much more effective and much more appropriate to the facts than limitation merely by the total block of tonnage. At the same time, it appears to me that we approached some distance, in the preparatory Commission, towards a possible compromise on that point, that was suggested by the French, and the French, having been induced to advance alike in that direction towards meeting our view, I hope may come a little further and enable a

  1833
  compromise of a satisfactory kind to be reached.
  Another point on which it seems to me that our representative took up a reactionary view and on which the French, who differed from us, were substantially right, was with regard to the principle of control and inspection of armaments in the various countries that are to carry out the Treaty. It may be that the French proposal was a little too elaborate in form, but it seems to me that in substance it was right—the proposal, namely, that if there is a dispute, if there is an allegation that any particular country has more armaments than it is entitled to under the treaty, to have that dispute settled by an international investigation in the country concerned as to the truth of the allegation or otherwise. It seems to me to make a mockery of the whole nation of disarmament by international agreement that any Power should have a right under the treaty of disarmament to impose a veto upon an impartial inquiry, on complaint made, in its own territory as to the amount of its armament. I hope we shall not take up any such impossible position as that. It is really asking too much that we should believe that good faith alone will go far enough, supplemented, I suppose, by the spies of the Secret Service. Good faith is always, in the absence of proper international arrangements, recognised official arrangements for inspection, supplemented by spies of the Secret Service. Would it not be more worthy of a great country frankly to say, "We will admit, on any primâ facie case having been established, that we are arming in excess of the amount allowed; we will admit investigation quite freely, and will not raise any question of false dignity and prestige. We will allow someone appointed by the League of Nations to come and make an investigation whether or not it is true."
  Then, to take a small but an important point in principle, the question of the derogations in the Treaty. There again it seems to me the French are right and we are wrong. On page 10 of this Command Paper 2888 it is suggested that the provisions of any Treaty which may be reached by way of this Conference shall cease to be binding upon the high contracting parties if any of the high contracting parties is threatened with a rebellion or an emergency involving
  1834
  serious military operations. We could all arrange to be threatened with rebellion, or to think we were, if we desired to dodge our Treaty obligations. The French view, which seems to me the proper view, is that once a Treaty has been entered into and a limitation been imposed upon the armaments of any State, that limitation may only be lifted by the consent of the Council of the League. The French appear to be completely right there and the attitude adopted by the British Government is likely to give ground for very serious suspicion of our good faith. It is not as though the balanced judgment of the Home Secretary or other Members of the present Government is so secure that they could not imagine out of thin air a rebellion that had no real existence. I can imagine the Home Secretary at any moment during the past two or three years telling the Primrose Dames that we were threatened with a rebellion by Communist nuclei in the dockyards and barracks, and thereby being enabled to increase our armaments to any extent might think necessary.
  With regard to the air, we seem to have reached at the Preparatory Commission a fairly satisfactory first stage of agreement with regard to the limitation of military aircraft both by total tonnage and by horse power, but we do not seem to have taken any serious account of the measures to be taken with regard to the possible conversion of civil aircraft to military purposes in the event of the outbreak of war. It is, of course, clear that civil aircraft can easily be transformed into bombers. Some of my hon. Friends in previous Debates have put forward proposals for the establishment of some kind of international organisation to deal with civil aviation. It is evident that the details of such a plan would need careful working out, but it is also clear that if such a plan could be effectively brought into operation it would very greatly limit the danger, which would otherwise be very grave, of the conversion of civil into military aircraft in time of war. I hope, therefore, the Government will give careful consideration to the possibility of such a plan.
  I have done with these technical details, which are somewhat tedious but none the less important. I agree that we cannot consider disarmament without reference to other elements in the international

  1835
  situation. In particular, as is suggested in our Amendment, disarmament cannot be considered except in close connection with arbitration. The progress of disarmament is essentially bound up, in our view, with the future progress and practice of international arbitration. The necessity of linking those two lines of policy together was recognised in the Geneva protocol. That in itself is no great commendation in the eyes of Members of the present Government, but it has also been recognised in the Locarno Treaty. The astonishing fact about the Locarno Treaty is that all the other signatories to the Treaty consented to compulsory arbitration in their disputes and we alone did not. We were the only Power who signed that Treaty who failed to enter into any obligations to submit our disputes with the others to arbitration, and the Foreign Secretary has never to my mind really justified the separation of our action in that respect from that of France, Germany and rest.
  After all, willingness to accept arbitration in any dispute between ourselves and other nations is one of the clearest possible tests of our will towards peace. On international arbitration this Government has a long and thoroughly bad record. It began by rejecting the Geneva Protocol, which provided for the compulsory reference of all disputes between ourselves and other nations to arbitration. At Locarno, though they imposed arbitration upon others they would not accept it themselves. They have rejected on several occasions offers by particular foreign States—Switzerland, Sweden and Holland—for the conclusion of treaties of arbitration with them, and further, and in some ways more serious than the rejection of these offers from smaller States, they threw all their weight at the last Imperial Conference against the Dominions, if they were so minded, signing the optional Clause for the arbitration of justifiable disputes, and thereby encouraged the whole British Empire to hang back and to refuse to commit themselves to this principle which we on this side of the House consider so salutary and so difficult to defend a refusal of.
  The Foreign Secretary about 18 months ago, in answering an appeal made to him on behalf of some society—I forget
  1836
  the name—which was requesting that we should sign the optional Clause, used a very curious argument. He said that His Majesty's Government preferred, in the case of serious disputes which were likely to lead to the rupture of the peace of nations, to retain the right to submit these disputes to the Council of the League rather than to the International Court at The Hague. He said, or seemed to argue, that, as long as they were willing to submit disputes to the Council of the League of Nations, that was just as good as submitting them to the International Court. Of course, it is not. The Foreign Secretary must know it is not, the difference being, that whereas in disputes submitted to the International Court the result is a judgment and an award which is binding on the two parties, a dispute submitted to the Council, if the Council does not arrive at unanimity, leaves the parties free, under the Covenant of the League, to go to war with one another after three months.
  Let me come back to our relations with America. They are, obviously, in an unhappy condition as a result of the consequences of the events at Geneva. Is this not a good moment for His Majesty's Government to make an offer to the American Government to conclude with them an all-in arbitration treaty? Would not that help to undo the recent mischief which has arisen at Geneva? The Foreign Secretary this afternoon said that he wished well to the proposed treaty of all-in arbitration between France and the United States. He went on to say that as far as we and the United States were concerned, war was already outlawed, he believed, in the hearts and souls of the citizens of both countries. If this be so, what is to be lost by putting a legal seal upon that outlawry and making a gesture to show to the great mass of the people rendered suspicious by the evil machinations of the Hearst Press and other organs which distort opinion, that we, at any rate, when we say we do not in any circumstances intend to fight the United States, mean what we say, and are prepared to make formal arrangements beforehand for submitting any dispute between the two countries to third-party judgment? What would be lost by such an arrangement? Why should the

  1837
  Government hang back from making it? I repeat the question asked before, "Why do we hang back?" If the Government are not prepared to go the whole length of signing the optional Clause—which is really a small step, though a very helpful one—what prevents them from making an arbitration treaty with Switzerland? What likely cause of war have we with Switzerland which might make us desire to drop bombs upon Geneva or Zurich? On what grounds is it possible at this hour in the development of the world's international history, to justify this timid refusal to submit our differences to the principle of arbitration?
  We have arrived, in my judgment, at a critical point in the history of the post-War world. My hon. Friend the Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) was somewhat ridiculed for taking a gloomy view of the world situation. It is better to take an unduly gloomy view, and therefore to realise the importance of acting in the right direction, than to take an unduly optimistic view and then to be let down by the facts. Some competent observers hold that the present moment is very full of danger for the peace of Europe and the rest of the world. The impetus of Locarno, for what that be worth, is now very clearly spent. The time has come when another step forward must be taken, and it should be the privilege and proud duty of the British Government to take the lead and the initiative in making that forward step. I will not go over the ground, already mapped out by earlier speakers, of troubled relations between the countries of Europe and the rest of the world. France and Germany—the evacuation of the Rhineland has been referred to already. France and Italy—nothing has been said about that so far, but very evidently the relations between France and Italy are troubled. Both of them suffer from insecurity due to fear of each other's armaments and intentions. Italy and Yugoslavia—their relations are very uncertain. Anglo-Russian relations, naturally, could not be kept out of such a Debate as this. There is a great deal of hysterics at both ends of the broken telegraph line between London and Moscow. But the Russians, at any rate, have this excuse for their hysterics, that they remember that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others made war upon them with money that this country's tax-
  1838
  payers had to pay not very many years ago, and they still read his speeches, and they know he is still a Member of this Government, and not an uninfluential Member. They know that it is hard for a leopard to change his spots. They also read accounts of speeches by the Home Secretary and of other outbursts in the Press here which, at any rate, are not reassuring.
  I received a few days ago a leaflet inviting me to go to the Albert Hall on Friday 15th July, "to Celebrate Routing the Reds." The principal speaker is to be the hon. and gallant Member for Handsworth (Commander Locker-Lampson) who has the distinction, which the Russians may perhaps exaggerate, of being the brother of the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, with whom he is sometimes confused, by ill-instructed people, and who is also an ex-Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Foreign Minister. He has now passed from the position of Parliamentary Private Secretary to that of task-master. He cracks the whip. He cracked the whip that led the Government to indulge in the elephantine diplomacy characterised by the hon. Member for Brightside. We read, "The first battle of the war on the Reds has been won." When is the second battle to begin, and of what sort is it to be? Can we be surprised if some of those doctrinaire leaders in Moscow who think that a certain set of simple principles can be applied to all and every country and every State, and govern all human relations, take his words literally and imagine him to be a person of greater importance than he is, and if they take such fanatical outbursts as this as evidence of the intention of the Government to urge other countries to make war upon Russia, even though they are not going to indulge in that operation themselves? Russians, if they are hysterical, have very good grounds to be hysterical in the light of such proceedings as this. One of the greatest evils that has been done by the breaking off of relations between this country and Russia is to increase the difficulties of every statesman in Middle and Eastern Europe who is working for peace. There are in Poland and Czechoslovakia two foreign ministers both of whom are working, I believe, consistently for peace. M. Zaleski in Poland, and M. Benes in Czechoslovakia are, I believe, two of the

  1839
  most wholehearted seekers after peace that the modern world can show. We are putting obstacles in their way and in the way of better relations between their countries and Soviet Russia by the breaking off of relations with Russia.
  The Foreign Secretary has told us that he is very pleased with the progress of the League of Nations, that it has dealt with a large number of important questions and that it is growing in strength from month to month. He is only afraid that it may be going a little too fast and a little too far. He said a little while ago at the Council of the League with regard to disarmament that "he was always a little alarmed lest the public in the different countries should be led in the first instance to expect too much." His practice has cured us of undue expectations. He need have no fear now. We do not expect too much from him as far as the policy of the League and the policy of constructive and imaginative peacemaking are concerned. We have long ago given up such expectations. His attitude towards the League of Nations always reminds me of the old hen and the young duckling. The old hen is always telling the young duckling not to go into the water, or he may get wet and even drown, and in the same way the Foreign Secretary seems to fear that the League, which he admits is growing stronger and more hopeful, should at any time really insist upon dealing with some of these questions which now disturb the peace of the world.
  Before 1914, as was said by the writer of a rather remarkable book, Europe was living in a world of whispers; we are now living in a similar atmosphere. There are whispers in all the centres of government in Europe, and we do not know whither we are drifting or what will be the end. It is no good for the Foreign Secretary to protest to us his good intentions. Nobody has ever said in this country that the Foreign Secretary desires war. Of course he does not. Neither did Sir Edward Grey nor any of his fellow blunderers among the diplomatists of pre-War days. None of them desired war. All their intentions were good. And yet the path which led to the hell of 1914 was paved with those good intentions. Besides good intentions we need imagination, courage and the sense of leadership, and particularly so in this
  1840
  country. The word of Britain has still a magical power throughout the world. The possibility of a response to a British lead, a really bold British lead of constructive pacification of the world cannot be exaggerated. Instead of this, we have a Government suffering from paralysis, from lack of will. We see a Foreign Secretary full of formal correctitudes, but making no step forward, no vigorous gesture, and throwing out no new and hopeful ideas for the settlement of these problems. We are losing golden hours. We are losing opportunities which will never recur again. The peoples of the world are not, as the hon. Member who last spoke imagines, in their natural state desirous of war. The peoples of the world, except when they are misled by the Press and by misguided politicians, are desirous only of peace, of being left alone so far as international relations are concerned. They are beginning to recognise that there is no real antagonism between any of the peoples of the world, but only fictitious antagonisms created by diplomatists and certain evil-disposed persons.
  Let us not forget that there are millions of men in every land who fought in a war which they were told was to end war. They are still nourishing the hope that, before they die, they will find that they were not mocked by that phrase and that the daybreak of their dreams will come true. But we are drifting hopelessly. The international sky, instead of lightening, seems to be getting darker. I say frankly that the Foreign Secretary of this country has a sacred trust, the peace of this generation and of our children who shall come after us, our vital interests, in the most literal sense of the phrase. If through lack of vision, even if it be not through ill will—we do not accuse him of that—but merely through lack of vigour and imagination and leadership he betrays that trust, he will have to answer a terrible indictment at the bar of history.
  8.0 p.m.
  Mr. RENNIE SMITH: I had hoped, in common with so many other Members of the Committee, that we might have heard something new in the speech of the Foreign Secretary to-day, but he has remained true to himself, and we have heard nothing at all helpful in the way of information or hopeful from the point of

  1841
  view of our future policy of building up a constructive peace. My hon. Friend who has just sat down has pointed out how systematically this Government has resisted every effort which has been made to develop arbitration as a method of organised relations among the nations of the world, how this country has, indeed, the worst record of any Government in the world for deliberately blocking the way that might lead to a settlement of disputes and to a guarantee that disputes would not lead to war by the policy which it has systematically pursued and which it has encouraged other parts of the British Empire to pursue in this matter of arbitration. When every allowance has been made, the fact remains that, although the Government is utterly bankrupt in policy, we have still plenty of basis for an effective policy to be built up at the present time, even without any further development of arbitration. With regard to arbitration, there has been sufficient in the way of world development and world change since 1919 to make reasonable a very thorough-going disarmament policy on the part of the present Government. The rise of the League of Nations, the development of Locarno, the disarmament of four of the member States of the League of Nations since 1919, and the fact, as the Foreign Secretary has said, that the heart and soul of the whole of the British people are permanently allied to a policy of peace so far as America is concerned—and similar assurances have come from responsible men in America on that particular point—all these things form a very largo foundation for British policy on disarmament.
  The two factors that are always present in our minds in regard to this matter of disarmament are, first of all, the remarkable rise of the American Navy and, secondly, the fall of the German Navy and the fall of German armaments. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary, when he comes to reply to-night, one or two questions in regard to the effect of the British disarmament proposals as they have been outlined by the First Lord of the Admiralty recently at Geneva. I should like to ask him whether he can give us some assurance that the net effect of that policy, if it does lead to the most hopeful results as to limitation, is not merely going to be that there will be a limitation and reduction of armaments,
  1842
  but, in effect, a limitation of a very considerable increase of armaments, certainly from the side of America and therefore from the side of Japan, and, leading through them, to Italy and France. So far as one can judge from the temper of the American people, they are thoroughly of the persuasion that they must have a Navy which is equal to that of Britain and, indeed, the only result that has come from the discussion which has been taking place at the conference has been the complete achievement of the principle of parity both in general and in detail. The deliberate expression of policy by His Majesty's Government that they are prepared to admit in detail in regard to every class of ship that America can, if she wishes, build up to a full equality with ourselves, represents the only substantial achievement that has come out of this conference to date.
  It is only a little more than a year ago since the First Lord of the Admiralty, on behalf of the British Government, was still seeking to observe the two-Power standard in regard to cruisers so far as this country was concerned. Speaking at a banquet in March of last year, he said it would be a very dangerous thing if this country were to be satisfied with a one-Power standard in cruisers. We must be superior in cruisers to any other country in order that we might protect our trade. That was the policy of the Government a year ago, notwithstanding the demand of the Washington Conference. The only thing that has emerged on this issue from the present conference is that America has now the consent of the British Government to go to a full equality in regard to cruiser construction, and in regard to every other class of ship not discussed and not subject to regulation under the Washington Conference. So far as we can judge from the American Press and from the Press of this country, which supports so wholeheartedly the policy of His Majesty's Government, headed by the "Times," it looks as if the main contribution that His Majesty's Government are going to make in regard to the policy of disarmament is actually to promote a new movement for armaments on the part of the Governments of the world. I should like the Under-Secretary when he replies, without discussing the details

  1843
  which are now going on in the Conference, to say whether the proposals put forward by the First Lord of the Admiralty do represent the final contribution that His Majesty's Government are prepared to make; whether in principle they are prepared to encourage America to embark upon a policy of cruiser construction which would react upon Japan, and, through Japan, on Italy and France. It would, indeed, be a sorry comment on the policy of the Government if their net achievement in regard to the cruiser conference should be that of establishing a "fifty-fifty" struggle between ourselves and America when our hearts and souls are unquestionably on the side of peace.
  With regard to the other important factor, namely, the fall of the German Navy in 1919 and the fall of the German armaments in 1919, I have been very much impressed this afternoon to see how one speaker after another from the benches opposite have assumed that we have done all that can possibly be done in regard to disarmament. It has been pointed out that we have reduced the large Army of 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 of men which we had in 1919, that we have reduced a very large Navy that we had in 1919; that we have made ourselves into a third-or fourth-hand service as compared with other nations; that we have really brought ourselves down to the smallest possible limit. Indeed, the hon. Member who represents the Cleveland Division of Yorkshire (Sir Park Goff), who has been specially studying the disarmament question from the point of view of the League of Nations Union, even went so far as to say that we were actually endangering ourselves, so great was the amount of disarmament to which we have submitted ourselves since 1919. I am only sorry to see that a fine body like the League of Nations Union, with its 650,000 members, allows itself to take that kind of attitude towards the problem of general disarmament. If you are going to start this discussion on the assumption that the British Army is the smallest that can be raised, that the Navy is down to rock bottom on its present expenditure, and that the Air Service is a very small and insignificant thing, if we are going to start with that attitude of mind, the attitude of mind which has always been
  1844
  expressed from the benches opposite and which, I am sorry to say, is too frequently expressed by that large body, the League of Nations Union, if that is to be the temper with which we are to confront our work in the League of Nations, then it is perfectly clear that we are not going to get anywhere at all in regard to disarmament policy, a policy which could prepare the way for peace in the years that lie ahead.
  I would, therefore, remind the Committee that we only have at present since 1919 two really substantial contributions to disarmament. We have the work which was done by the Washington Conference, which was limited to five Powers and two categories of ships, and which was, therefore, a very restricted piece of disarmament. I think, in practice, perhaps we can say that the one effective piece of work done in regard to disarmament was that policy carried out for four States under the organisation of the League of Nations in 1919. Up till then we never had, in the last 100 years, a definite policy of disarmament actually carried out, but then a definite standard was established. If we take the case of Germany, the largest of the four Powers involved, we find that her estimates for the Army and Navy in March of this year—she has no estimates for the Air Service—amount in round figures to something like £34,000,000 as against more than £80,000,000 which was her expenditure in the year before the War. How do those figures compare with our own? Our estimates in this year are £117,000,000 as against £71,000,000 in 1913–14. It is of the greatest importance, and it is very significant from the point of view of disarmament, that we have had four States, all of whom are now members of the League of Nations, who have carried out this radical policy of disarmament.
  I regret very much that the statement made by the British Government and the proposals put forward by the First Lord of the Admiralty have contained no reference to the state of the world at the present time. We have a disarmament policy which carries with it total disarmament so far as the Air Service is concerned; it carries with it total disarmament so far as the submarines of the world are concerned; it carries with it so far as land armaments are concerned

  1845
  the practical abolition of heavy armaments, like tanks and armoured cars and the heaviest battle cannon; it carries with it a very big limitation of every category of ship on the seas, and their size and the guns which they are to carry, and I want to ask the Under-Secretary what he supposes the effect of the so-called Bridgeman policy on navies is going to have, assuming that it is carried out, not only on the one side by America, but also on the other side by a country like Germany? He must know, as we all know, that those four States carried out their 1919 policy of disarmament at our instigation and subject to very solemn obligations which were then entered into to the effect that armaments would be limited to the 1919 standard. The gathering which was held at Berlin, the International gathering of the League of Nations, was used as a sounding board by responsible leaders of public German life to express their profound disappointment with the result of a general disarmament discussion going on at that time at Geneva, and to underline the difficult position in which they were finding themselves as contracting parties to existing treaties in Europe. Count Bernstorff said frankly that the whole German nation were profoundly disappointed with the work that had been done through Lord Cecil in regard to this matter of general disarmament at Geneva. We see from every angle of the German Press the view being put forward that unless there are signs in the world of an extension of the 1919 standard of disarmament as applied to the land, sea and air forces, and some reasonable prospect of its being carried out under the solemn treaty obligations, Germany would be obliged to repudiate the position in which she was then placed. Dr. Gessler, the German Minister of Defence, in regard to a statement made in Germany with respect to his policy as to Russia and disarmament generally, said:
  "It must be frankly stated that it is out of the question for us to carry on under our present system indefinitely, for we could not strengthen our forces as we wish in face of an attack. We must demand from the other nations disarmament to the extent of the system imposed upon Germany, either general disarmament, or we must also be placed in a position to meet our adversaries with weapons of equal value. It is quite impossible for a State like Germany, a member of the League of
  1846
  Nations, to be kept down on the level of an Indian tribe."
  I will quote a statement from an article written by a member of the German Reichstag, who is not a Socialist member, but one who stands in the middle of German thought as represented in the Reichstag, in which he expresses what I am perfectly convinced covers the thought of a very large section of German life at the present time. He said:
  "The opportunity is now offered to Germany of bursting the chains of Versailles and attaining her old freedom and greatness. All that it needs is another war, which is certainly coming. England will wage war against Russia, France will fight Italy, or Poland will fight Lithuania, and we gather that the conflagration will spread. Germany must join on one side or the other. If she remains neutral, she will be divided up. Opinions may differ as to which side Germany should take. She will join that side which offers or can offer the assurance that the Treaty of Versailles will be torn to scraps, and that Germany will recover her freedom and that, above all, she will be able to have her own way as to her armed forces."
  It is perfectly understandable that we should have this kind of temper shown in Germany, and I want to ask the Under-Secretary what is the Foreign Office attitude towards that kind of Germany; towards a Germany which says that we are not carrying out one of the most fundamental provisions of the 1919 arrangement. We have done nothing up to date, and there is no sign in the Bridgeman proposals that we have any such intentions in the near future; there never has been and there never will be, so long as Conservative policy can influence Government policy in this matter. Will the Under-Secretary tell us what is to be our attitude; whether it is going to be the contribution of the present Tory Government to disarmament in the world, that on the one hand they are going to help to build up an American Navy by the policy they are now pursuing, and, on the other, whether they are going to give a free hand to Germany to rebuild their Army and Navy and Air Service along the lines of the French, British and American model. Is it really the definite intention of His Majesty's Government to accept that position?
  We are already getting that kind of propaganda in this country by, presumably,

  1847
  responsible British writers. I had a book sent to me a few days ago written by a person who uses the nom de plume "Augur," and who, for anything I know, may come from the Foreign Office itself. It is written on a line which is not unfamiliar to the British Foreign Office. He argues the thesis that we have made a great blunder in regard to the policy of German disarmament since 1919; that we have done a number of things which have driven Germany into the arms Of Russia, and that we ought to be doing everything we can to win Germany back to West European policy: a line of thought which, I am sure, is very sympathetic towards the policy which has been pursued by His Majesty's Government during the past few years. He asks what is the price which must be paid if we are to make sure that Germany will become a member of what he describes as the white race, the European race. He underlines again and again in his little book that the thing that will have to be done will be to do away with the disarmament regulations to which Germany submitted in 1919, and he goes on to say that:
  "the restrictions in the Treaty in respect of German armaments must fall."
  I ask His Majesty's Government whether they are envisaging as a part of their deliberate policy at the present time not only the creation of a very large American Navy, but also deliberately reserving the power in their own hands to give Germany this kind of new freedom under the heads prescribel by Britain and her policy in regard to disarmament. Are they deliberately going to break with the 1919 obligations as a party which has always honoured its treaty rules; which has always been open and frank? Are they really going to give Germany the right to be free again in regard to armaments? These thoughts are agitating the minds of people who are watching the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to disarmament. It is for this reason that we on this side do not feel that the statement made by the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) in opening the Debate, a statement of a very gloomy character, was at all overdrawn. We are very greatly concerned about the policy of His Majesty's Government, and I ask the Under-Secretary—who has
  1848
  more than once when we have been discussing foreign affairs vouchsafed to us very important information—if he will tell us whether the proposals put forward by the First Lord of the Admiralty in regard to disarmament are the considered proposals and the final proposals of the Government, and whether the Government are going to close their eyes entirely to the existence of the 1919 standard, and to the obligations that were entered into that year?
  I am not arguing that the Government should sink a considerable proportion of the present Navy, like the Germans did at Scapa Flow, or that we should originate a revolutionary policy of that kind; but is it not possible for the Government to say, "We will regard this as an ideal. It is part of our solemn contractual obligation. We would like to get down to the 1919 standard, and we will aim at it for, say, five 10 or 15 years." What is the Government doing to build up a common policy? We see things drifting into some kind of nemesis in regard to disarmament. It is impossible for the four leading States to carry out for years a policy which is at variance with the standard accepted and practised by the rest of the nations of the world. The Labour party think that Germany's present armaments are quite enough; but Conservatives in Germany are doing what Conservatives do in this country. They are using the argument of Germany's needs, and the need for the protection of Germany's trade routes. We are getting tired of hearing this endless claim that it is necessary to safeguard the Empire; that is is necessary to protect our trade routes.
  That argument can be applied to every nation in the world. There is hardly a nation which is not dependent on the sea for its food supplies. We are all dependent on the sea for our food supplies; and we are asking that Great Britain should be put into a separate category on the ground that its particular concern is on the waters of the world. Conservatives in Germany are arguing in exactly the same way. They say they want to protect their trade routes. They want the same thing on the same terms and under the same conditions, for which the British Foreign Secretary has been arguing this afternoon.

  1849
  We are getting into a very difficult situation, and if we do not clinch this matter of armaments this year, or early next year, we shall drift helplessly into a policy of increasing armaments, and be giving up what is one of the few gains of the last War—the 1919 standard—something actually in operation. I want to see this most precious part held and retained for civilisation. I want to see the 1919 standard of disarmament kept at all costs, and preserved and developed, and for this reason I am pleading with the Government to stop closing their eyes and hoodwinking the people by saying that we want 72 cruisers and to spend £117,000,000 as a minimum at the present time. I appeal to the Government to get down to this question and give us a serious and considered answer. What is our attitude and policy towards the 1919 standard? What are we going to do to be really honest and faithful members of the League of Nations and to play our part, as we promised, in generalising that standard, and making it applicable on the same terms and conditions to the Treaty members of the League of Nations, and to all others who are prepared to subscribe to it.
  Mr. WELLOCK: I was very glad, and to some degree astonished, to hear the Foreign Secretary confess that the atmosphere in Europe to-day, so far as militarism and future war is concerned, is much worse than it was in 1924. Indeed, we should have to go a very long way back in order to find such a change in atmosphere and outlook as has taken place during the last three years in regard to this situation. In 1924 the action taken by the Labour Prime Minister completely changed the atmosphere of Europe in the short space of a few weeks, and if that atmosphere had been continued and improved it would have been possible to carry out extensive schemes of disarmament. I was disappointed to hear the Foreign Secretary deprecate the sort of conferences or agreements which were contemplated in the Protocol, for if this had been carried out we should have had a basis for a policy which is impossible at the present time. The Foreign Secretary said that he did not believe in these universal gatherings and conferences,
  1850
  for while they gave plenty of scope for rhetoric and oratory nobody got down to the real things which count.
  You cannot make any headway in a matter of this kind unless you can first of all create an atmosphere. During the War we had a separate department operating in order to maintain an atmosphere in which the War could be carried on, and if you are to cary out a policy which involves a large measure of disarmament you will be obliged to create an atmosphere wherein that policy may be carried through. That atmosphere was changed in 1924 and since then we have had one of the most flagrant examples of the breakdown of that universal policy and the development of a spirit of sectionalism which has filled the air with suspicion and fear and brought us nearer to war than we were before 1914. The Governments of the world are a very long way behind the public opinion of the world in this matter. The present Government does not seem to realise the extent to which public opinion in this country, and in every country of the world, has changed during the last ten years. In fact, I go as far as to say that there is no example in history where public opinon has changed so completely and radically as it has changed on the question of disarmament during the last ten years. But while public opinion has been going in one direction the Governments of the world have been going in exactly the opposite direction. So far as all the conferences which have ben called since the close of the War to deal with disarmament are concerned, no real progress has been made. We have had only a tampering with those sides of disarmament policy which, generally considered, do not count very much in modern warfare.
  Public opinion is not only going in the direction of disarmament but is going in the direction of complete disarmament, and we have powerful movements and organisations which make total disarmament the object of their agitation. Just now one of the most popular and most respected Ministers in the United States, Mr. Borah, is about to introduce the question of calling an International Conference to discuss one matter alone, and that is complete disarmament throughout the world. I maintain that if the policy started by the Labour Prime Minister in 1924 had been pursued, if we had a new

  1851
  basis on the lines of the Protocol, if we came forward with drastic proposals for disarmament and meant to carry them out, we should carry the public opinion of the world with us. I am not only in favour of asking the nations of the world to agree to a very large measure of disarmament; I believe that if we were to go to such a conference and advocate a certain policy in regard to disarmament and say that we were prepared, whatever other nations may do, to go to certain lengths in the direction of disarmament, we should certainly not lose but add to our prestige and gain in moral influence in the world.
  May I say a word or two on the question of Russia? Much has been said on that issue in to-day's Debate and it is necessary that much should be said. There is a great deal more to be said on it than has already been said. I want to emphasise the point that has been made, that Russia to-day is filled with suspicion in regard to what this country is doing and proposes to do. I think that Russia has very great reason for entertaining those suspicions. Russia has been facing our implacable opposition for a period of 10 years. We ought not to forget that after the close of the War not only did we carry on a most barbaric and inhuman blockade against Russia, but we were the means of assisting what are known as the White Generals in Russia to bring down the Soviet régime, to the extent of £100,000,000, and the people of this country for a considerable time knew nothing whatever of what was being done. Those were the beginnings. Russia cannot forget the damage that was done to her existence at that time, and her economic losses as the result of having to maintain a huge army to meet the opposition to her. It is a recognition of the fact that from that date to this we have maintained our opposition to Russia, that she is very suspicious of us now. Furthermore, the matter goes much beyond the region in question. There is the Eastern aspect of the question, and to my mind it is a very serious aspect. We are confronted with the fact that during the last few years Russia has increased her influence in China. It is a matter of serious concern to this country that the influence of Russia in China is as great as it is at the present time.
  1852
  I would like to ask the Foreign Secretary to what extent Russian policy in the East is likely to determine our attitude towards militarism in India. I know that we have a special Department for India. Nevertheless I think there is a side to this question which concerns the Foreign Office. Mention was made in the India Debate on Friday of a rumour regarding the transference of part of our Expeditionary Force to India. That rumour was denied, and I was very glad to hear it denied. But there is another rumour in regard to our military affairs in India, which has not been denied and with which I would like the Foreign Minister to deal, because if the rumour be true it does concern our general Eastern policy. That is to say, is there any likelihood that we are going to increase our air establishment in the North of India? Are we going to do that from fear that Russian influence is likely to be increased in the near future, working from Afghanistan? That rumour is going about very much indeed. If it should be the case, if that is going to be done, it is hopeless to expect any policy of disarmament to be pursued by the present Government.
  The only way in which we can deal with the menace of Russia in the East, as the Government would call it, is by beating Russia upon her own lines. There has been much talk in recent years in regard to Russia, particularly with regard to her paying her debts, but there is one debt that Russia has paid, and that is the debt of freedom to the little countries round her border, and her debt of freedom to China. That is why Russian influence has increased in China; it is why it has gained in Persia; and it is why it will grow in other parts of the East. There is only one way to face this question and to overcome the influence of Russia in the East, and that is both in China and India to revolutionise our policy, to give a far larger measure of freedom than we have ever anticipated, and so win the respect of the whole of the East, of China and India, and, coming even a little nearer, we may include Egypt, in order that we may on that security pursue a policy of peace both in the East and in the West. Those are the main points upon which I desired to say a few words, and I would like to have some assurance from the Foreign Secretary that we are not going to be

  1853
  involved by the fear of Russia in the way that I have described, but that we are going to be prepared both in Europe and in the East to trust humanity to a far greater extent than in the past, in giving freedom in China and in India, and in calling that wider conference on the basis of the Protocol of 1924, and being able to go to that Conference conscious of the growing mind of the world in the direction of disarmament, and realising that our greatness in future will be determined not by the strength of our armaments, but by the strength of our resolve to trust the desires of the world for peace.
  Miss WILKINSON: There are various ways in which one can discuss the question of disarmament. There is, as is known to one who was a student of Debates in this House before she came here, the characteristic and rather old-fashioned way of regarding foreign policy and disarmament conferences as matters that primarily concern the people who meet in those conferences and the comparatively small ruling classes from which they are drawn. It is the traditional view of foreign policy to regard it as a game of very highly placed people. M. Paleologue and all the memoirs that have recently been published of 19th Century policy, give that view. It is a most interesting, intricate, and somewhat delightful game of very highly placed people, who cannot be troubled by such outside considerations as the men who are to be mangled by these policies or the destruction that they are likely to leave behind them. But the discussion this afternoon has taken a more realist view than that. After all, before we can even discuss the, question of disarmament, we have got to get down to the real causes of war. We no longer go to war from the old dynastic reasons. To-day the problems that cause war are the struggles for markets, the complicated economic problems which are the basis of the whole of our foreign political affairs. The feature of the last 15 years has been that we have seen the economic combination going outside the confines of the State where it can be controlled and supervised, if desired, by the Government of the day, and we have seen more and more a tendency towards great international combinations, international
  1854
  monopolies, which, though they are in touch with all the Governments, are supervised by none and can be controlled by none.
  I suggest that these international trading combinations, who are responsible to nobody and who give an account to nobody except to their shareholders, by the use of immense funds and immense influence keep a state of disturbance in the world in which they can fish for their own advantage. It means that, in practice, disarmament is impossible until they have been dealt with. Russia has been mentioned many times this afternoon. In spite of the family connections of the present Under-Secretary, I think it would be true to say of him, as of the Foreign Secretary, that the last thing they desired was a break in diplomatic relations with Russia. What has happened? We have heard of the charming personality of the hon. Gentleman's brother in the drawing rooms of Mayfair, and his appearance on platforms in the country suitably escorted by gentlemen waving Union Jacks and suitably hymned by Dame Clara Butt, but, however delightful a performance that might be, I hardly think it was likely to cause the serious diplomatic rupture with Russia that has actually happened. But we have two great oil monopolies; we have the Royal Dutch Shell Combine on the one hand and the Standard Oil on the other. They have parcelled out the world's markets and the world's supply of oil between them. They have come to amicable relations but there is, unfortunately for them, a disturbing factor. Russian petrol has been placed on the markets of the world at a price considerably cheaper than that at which the monopolies handed it out to their customers and, at all costs, that disturbance of their monopoly has to be destroyed. So, you get the "Daily Mail" campaign and you find placards in a large proportion of the garages of the country, "No Soviet Petrol sold here."
  If the issue were put to the average user of petrol—I may say I am a very small consumer, but it is an important item in one's expenditure—they would very much like to have petrol considerably cheaper than the price at which it is supplied by the oil monopolies at the

  1855
  present time. But we are to have the hon. Gentleman's brother, we are to have Dame Clara Butt, we are to have the appearance of Union Jacks in the hands of British business men, not really because we are not to shake hands with murder—seeing that we sent the hon. Gentleman's colleagues to shake hands with Signor Mussolini—but in order that the international oil combines may put their oil on to the markets of the world at the price which they think suitable. I see the Under-Secretary shakes his head. I am sure family loyalty will prevent him agreeing to any economic doctrine such as I have suggested, but, nevertheless, it is true that the oil shareholders and the big oil companies put money pretty freely behind any kind of movement likely to cause a rupture with Russia. I am not suggesting by any means that that is the only reason. The fear of the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues of having a successful experiment in workers' government on the other side of Europe is also a real fact in the situation, but I think everybody would agree that the desire of the oil companies to maintain oil monopolies has been one of the big features behind the "Daily Mail" campaign at any rate, and one that has contributed very largely to the creation of that atmosphere.
  I give that as one illustration of the results of private, but powerful international trading operations on the foreign relations of the chancelleries of the world. A previous speaker on the Opposition Front Bench has dealt with another very serious situation, and that is the evil of private trade in armaments. The armament firms of the world are a very small group. I think it is true to say that, in practice, four big armament firms represent the controlling influence in the armament ring. If that be true, and if the representatives of these firms are giving out information to the Press, as they notoriously did in a previous crisis, we see, on an international scale, what was the stock-in-trade of older Labour speakers about the coffin trust in Glasgow. The coffin trust was supposed to object to any kind of public health reform because they were afraid it would interfere with their trade in coffins. Be that as it may, we see the same idea very grimly carried out when the repre-
  1856
  sentatives of private armament firms being allowed—I do not say officially allowed—to use the hatreds, suspicions and fears of a war-torn world merely in order that armaments may be ordered, so as to increase the dividends of their shareholders.
  I have no doubt that, if it were put to these men individually, they would protest that they were public servants meeting a public demand and so forth. Even the opium traders have urged that view, but the most convinced supporter of private trade should see from the activities of the armament representatives at Geneva, that private profit made out of armaments is one of the matters that must be dealt with before we can get down to a serious discussion of disarmament. Another factor in the international trading complications is investment in undeveloped countries by firms who desire to use those investments purely for the exploitation of cheap labour and for getting the quickest possible return on the money invested. I suggest to the Under-Secretary that too long have we been in the undignified position of having the British Navy used as a debt collector for foreign investors. I quite understand the wild enthusiasm of some of these gentlemen for the largest possible Navy that the unfortunate taxpayers of this country can be induced to maintain. We see these men investing their money in affairs which they know to be extremely risky and yet, although they charge enormous interest because of the extra risk, they are the first to squeal if that risk eventuates, and to demand the strongest measures against people who are not paying their debts. One could give a large number of instances of that kind. Egypt has been the classic case. A great deal of our trouble in China has come from the assumption that, although British capital abroad is used for private investors' profit, when it is threatened, it is the British Navy, paid for by the British taxpayer, that has to be used as the debt collector. Of course, it is always said that it is to protect the lives of the clerks and other white workers who are sent out to these undeveloped countries. That argument would carry greater weight if these companies showed any particular enthusiasm for decent conditions for their clerks when their capital is not threatened, but it is only when their capital is threatened

  1857
  that you find that the British Navy must be called in, that we must have a gunboat policy, and that this country must have its foreign relations threatened because of the investments of private capitalists abroad. A good deal of our trouble with Russia has been due to people who have got concessions there, who have risked capital and got very much higher interest because they have risked it, and who have then demanded the whole weight of the Fleet to be used for their private profit.
  I suggest that if we are serious when we speak of the League of Nations being a force for peace, it is not sufficient to keep the League as a sort of decorative screen behind which the old game of foreign policy is played. If we seriously mean that the League of Nations is to be a force for world peace, it has to tackle some of these fundamental causes of world war. I suggest that the League of Nations should collect and publish information, not merely about labour, but about the activities of some of the international monopolists and what they are doing. I suggest that a really honest and impartial survey, and the publication of the results of that survey, of the work of some of these big international trusts would be a startling eye-opener to the countries of the world. It is because these trusts work in secret, because they are in control of enormous funds, and of social prestige, because the lure of their gold is such that the very highest interests in the various countries can be brought to bear and to control or rather cajole Ministers into carrying out their will, that we see nothing of the work that they are doing. I suggest that a really impartial survey, not some of these decorative publications, but a real attempt to find out what these international trusts are doing, would at least let us know where we are. If humanity is to be crucified on a cross of gold, at least let us know that that crucifixion is going on, and let us not merely see these international combinations waving the flags of the various countries, and setting the various countries to wave their flags against each other, in the interests of the private dividends of these firms.
  Would it not be a real step towards disarmament and world peace if it could he made clear that armaments should exist only for policing purposes, and that capitalists must be left to take their own risks? If we can get to that point, it seems to me that we shall arrive at
  1858
  some real basis of disarmament, but while we have it maintained that any private profiteer can, as a matter of fact, rely on the arms of his Government, so long as he is big, and important, and wealthy enough to control, or rather to cajole, the Government, then we might just as well give up talking about disarmament, because these people can laugh in our faces, and regard the Debates in this House as merely letting off steam. It is a terrible commentary on our civilisation that while the principle of disarmament is now verbally accepted by leading politicians of all parties and by all civilised Governments, very little is being done in practice to secure that disarmament. We used to say on Labour platforms that just as, if they are given toys, children will play with them, so nations, if they have armaments, will inevitably go to war. We were sneered at for saying that, but it has now become the respectable doctrine of conservative speakers. We find Lord Grey, in his recent book, "Twenty-five Years," saying:
  "The enormous growth of armaments in Europe, the sense of insecurity and fear caused by them—it was these that made war inevitable. This, it seems to me, is the truest reading of history, and the lesson that the present should be learning from the past in the interest of future peace, the warning to be handed on to those who come after us."
  9.0 p.m.
  I would add a footnote to that, not that armaments are the cause of war, but the fact that the armaments are there, and can be used, constitutes a standing excuse for the adventurers and private monopolists.
  Let us consider for a moment what is the economic burden of the cost of armaments to the peoples of the world. It is rather amusing in 1927 to realise that in 1895, when Mr. Gladstone made his great protest against naval expansion, the total Naval Estimates of this country were only £15,000,000; in 1914 they yere £50,000,000; and in 1926 £60,000,000. The British Government are now spending approximately £120,000,000 per annum on defence. If we reduce that to 1914 prices, which, after all, are the only fair basis of comparison, we find that it is really equal to £79,000,000 but the total defence expenditure in 1914 was only £72,000,000. This is an extraordinary state of affairs. Whereas the peoples of Europe were

  1859
  armed to the teeth in 1914, when everybody was expecting war, and the statesmen of the world were not doing all that they might have done to prevent it, whatever they may say now, the total defence expenditure of this country was £72,000,000; that is to say, that when the War is over, when nobody can say against whom we are building, when the only reasons for these armaments are the sinister forces in the background that I have suggested, we see an all-round increase of 10 per cent. on our real expenditure on defence.
  I would point out further that the burden on the British people now is out of all proportion to the burden in 1914. In that year this country was almost at the peak of its prosperity. The year 1913 is still taken as the peak year, the year to which we look back as the standard of normal prices. We were bearing our £72,000,000 burden at that time, but this burden of £79,000,000 on 1914 prices is being borne by a country with at least 1,250,000 people out of work, with at least another 750,000 on short time, with wages appallingly low, with the whole standard of life low, and with all the people concerned in industry talking about enormous burden of taxation that is being placed on industry. The present expenditure of £79,000,000—I am giving the figures on the 1914 basis—is therefore out of all proportion to the burden we were bearing in 1914.
  Another feature of this situation is the appalling increase in air armaments. Possibly we may be faced, in fact we are faced, with a race in air armaments which places us pretty much in the position in which we were in 1908 with regard to naval armaments. This brings me to the fact that the next war will be so destructive as to threaten the very existence of European civilisation. Only this week I was attending a lecture given by an expert on chemical warfare, which made me make up my mind that somehow or other I was going to get into the Army in the next war, because it seemed to me it would be the only reasonably safe place. This chemical expert showed upon the screen pictures of tubes containing every kind of death-dealing disease which could be hurled into our cities. We are to fight with bacteria, bacilli and disease germs of all kinds. Our cities will be not merely decimated but rendered utterly
  1860
  uninhabitable by chemical bombs. Bombs are now being manufactured in our research laboratories which would render utterly impossible for days—not merely for a short time after they were dropped—any kind of life, human, animal or vegetable. These things make us realise that it is not war in the ordinary sense that we are talking about. Indeed, it is a scandal that during the greater part of this Debate these benches have been completely empty, and that the whole attitude of the House towards this subject is one of boredom. We are faced with the wiping out of our civilisation unless we deal with this question. It is not a matter which can be left to experts. The Government themselves ought to awaken the conscience of every elector to the appalling danger which we are facing and which civilisation as a whole is facing. It may be that I shall be accused of exaggerating—I have frequently been accused of inflicting sob stuff upon this House—and I will therefore read an extract from a memorandum to the League of Nations prepared in 1922 by General T. R. C. Groves, who was the Director of Air Operations for the British Air Force in 1918. This memorandum is old-fashioned now, but this is what it says:
  "In the first phase of the next war, when each side is striving to snatch victory by the method which Marsh Foch has described as 'demoralising the people and thus disarming the Government,' there is little doubt the belligerents will resort to gas bomb tatacks on a vast scale. This form of attack upon great cities such as London or Paris can entail the loss of millions of lives in the course of a few hours. The gas bombs employed will contain gas in a liquid form. The liquid would be released on impact and expand to many hundred times its volume. The gas cloud so formed would be heavier than air, and would thus go into the cellars and tubes in which the population had taken refuge. As the bombardment continued the gas would thicken until it flowed through the streets of the city in rivers. All gas experts are agreed that is would be impossible to devise means to protect the civil population from this form of attack."
  That is a cheerful prospect for those of us who are left behind. Some of us still remember the speech made by the present Secretary of State for Air when defending his first year's Estimates. Members from these benches put up similar arguments to those I am using now in their plea for air disarmament, and the Minister for Air then assured us that he thought the matter might be

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  arranged by means of treaties under which the centre of cities need only be bombed when the civil population had gone back to the suburbs and the cities were left in charge of caretakers and so on. I preserve that copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT, because when I quote it at public meetings I have been frequently challenged about the absurdity of the statement. If that be the attitude of mind in which such experts as the present Secretary of State for Air are facing the question of air disarmament, it seems to me that the prophecies of General Groves are not by any means likely to be an exaggerated statement of the peril which we are likely to face in the next war.
  We are facing an entirely new problem and we are facing it from a technical point of view. Britain is no longer an island. Air armaments have wiped away our old tactical position, but have not wiped away the old-fashioned mentality of the people who are considering the question of disarmament. They will think on the old lines. They still think of us as having 22 miles of moat all round, not realising that not only are we in danger of air attacks from Paris, but that we are possibly in danger from attack from New York as well. What we need is to tackle this problem from a new standpoint, from the economic standpoint of disarmament, rather than considering it purely as a diplomatic game realising also that it is not a question of limiting or cutting down expenditure here and there, but a question of uniting the civilised peoples of the world in a great campaign to get rid of armaments before armaments get rid of civilisation.
  Mr. CAMPBELL: I did not intend to speak at all during this Debate, but on listening to the speech of the hon. Lady I could not help thinking it was a great pity that she, like many others, had not had the advantage of more practical experience of the subject on which she was speaking. As one who has been right round the world, and who has lived for a number of years far from this country, I cannot help thinking that these Debates become theoretical lectures instead of practical politics. The Foreign Secretary has to consider, not what is best in theory, but what is practical politics, what can be done, and what has to be left undone.
  1862
  Although the majority of us in this House and this country would undoubtedly like to see armaments cut down, we realise that we are living today in an age when it is an impossibility to go beyond a certain limit of safety. The hon. Lady has spoken of those who have gone out to foreign parts to exploit the natives. Many of us have gone out into those foreign parts not knowing what we were going to meet and having a very hard struggle to fight through to the end. As for the poor native he, as a matter of fact, is not often quite so poor as he is made out to be. The natives know how to look after themselves quite as well as many people in this country know how to look after themselves.
  The hon. Lady has talked of those who go out overseas to make profit from the people, in China or Africa or India, but these traders, these brothers and sisters of ours, are doing this country a great deal of good. I have had some experience of the tremendous distances that our food supplies and other things have to be carried in order to reach this country. If we were unable to get those supplies, this country would cease to exist. When we realise that, we must acknowledge that it is absolutely necessary that we should have a sufficient Navy to guard our trade routes. I myself have been a journey right from Singapore to South Africa occupying 17 days without seeing another ship, and I have had the same experience in sailing from Cape Town to Las Palmas. I mention that to show the immense seas we have to go through and that at any moment a ship laden with wheat or sugar destined for this country might very easily be attacked by a foreign vessel.
  I merely intervened in this Debate to say that I have never taken part in any war, although I have fought many battles on the cricket field and the football field. Therefore, I cannot be looked upon as one keen after blood, because I am not. I should like to see a peaceful world. I should like, more especially, to see peace starting at home, and then we should begin to talk about making other countries peaceful. Peace should begin at home, and, when we can trust ourselves, that is the time to talk about other countries. We must bring this matter down to practical politics. It is all very well to talk about cutting down

  1863
  our Navy, Army and Air Force, but, unless other nations are willing to cut down their armaments in similar proportions, it is absurd for us to try and get the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Foreign Secretary, the Secretary of State for War, or the Minister for Air to cut down their Estimates. I only intervened in this Debate, because I thought it had gone a little away from the practical side.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: I have been very interested in the remarks which have been made by the hon. Member for North West Camberwell (Mr. Campbell), who generally deals with these questions in a practical manner. I hope I shall be able to deal with this subject in a practical way. By way of supplementing the remarks which have been made by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson), I would like to draw the attention of the Under-Secretary to the fact that the Foreign Secretary did not deal with a very important matter, and that is the question of the limitation or the total abolition of the use of poison gas in warfare. I think we ought to have some common measure of agreement as to our position at those Conferences where the question of poison gas is considered. In the old days, according to the Convention of Nations, it was forbidden to poison water, but we have reached the position to-day when the very air itself may be poisoned to such an extent as completely to transform the whole of our system of warfare. Poison gas kills men by a method which has never been employed before, and I would like the Under-Secretary to give the Committee an assurance that the Foreign Secretary is really alive to the importance of this matter of the limitation or the total abolition of the use of poison gas.
  I will now come to what the hon. Member for North West Camberwell spoke of as the practical side of this matter. I want to deal with the question of armaments in a way in which it was not dealt with by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough. During the War we had an opportunity of examining this question of expense in regard to armaments and of asking ourselves whether it was justified or not. I agree with the hon. Member for North West Camberwell that we
  1864
  must have a Navy to protect our commerce. We all realise that, but the question that concerns us most of all to-night is whether we are justified in our present expenditure in order to keep the Navy at its supposed efficiency. I want to examine the question as to whether our Navy is efficient when it comes to the test of actual warfare. I have been engaged nearly all my life either in working on ships or supervising ship-workers. What happened after the Battle of Jutland? What was the first thing that happened as far as the repletion of the Navy was concerned? It is not generally known that we came perilously near to defeat in the Battle of Jutland.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): A discussion in regard to the efficiency of the Navy is not relevant to this Vote.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: I am discussing the question of the expense of the Navy, and I am trying to show that that expenditure is not justified.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That question cannot be discussed on this Vote from that point of view. A question affecting the expense of the Navy cannot be discussed on the Foreign Office Vote.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: Surely a question as to the amount of money which is being spent on the armaments of the country is in order?
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Not in that sense. If the hon. Member wishes to deal with naval matters, he must do it on the Navy Estimates and not on the Foreign Office Vote; otherwise, we should be able to discuss any subject under the sun on this Vote.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: Our supposed preparedness for war is not really preparedness at all. If we take our own country and compare it with Germany, our preparedness before the last War counted for nothing, because Germany on land was supposed to be invincible. Of course, if preparedness was the only thing that was required, Britain was invincible on the sea before the last War. I hold that the War proved that Germany was not invincible on land, and that we came perilously near to defeat on the sea, and it was only our quickly improvised methods which overcame our difficulties. I submit that in our own country

  1865
  we had that lesson during the War, namely, that all our preparedness and expense was proved in the main to be futile, and we had to engage during the War period on the building up of armaments quite different from those we had prepared prior to the War. During the first two years of the War, we were engaged on improvising methods, such as the getting up of decoy ships, monitors, and all the rest. All these things, which we had never thought necessary before the War, we found absolutely essential, and the things which we had regarded as essential and on which we had spent so much money were practically useless. I submit to the Chairman's ruling, and I am not going into the question any more closely, but I intended to show the Committee that the greater part of our expense is wasted, so far as armaments on sea and land are concerned.
  With regard to the general question of disarmament and who is going to lead the way to the disarmament of nations, I agree with the hon. Member for North-West Camberwell that we must protect our sea-borne trade, but I want to remind him, as I have reminded the Committee before, that we are the most bellicose nation the world has ever known. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] I repeat that. We are the most bellicose nation the world has ever known. Before 1914, we fought 43 wars in 50 years, and since 11th November, 1918, we have fought four wars costing £700,000,000 and thousands of lives. We are the most bellicose nation the world has ever known, and it is not Belgium, Holland, Spain, Czechoslovakia, Russia or Germany which will require to show the nations the way to peace but it is we ourselves—it is this great fighting nation which has led the world in fighting which will have to lead the world back to the paths of peace.
  Let me once again remind the Committee of that great example of peace not won by armies but by something else. If we were asked which was the safest part of the British Empire to live in, would we say, "Here in Great Britain"? We would not. Would we say it was in India, with all our fortifications and garrisons or would we say it was on the Rock of Gibraltar. No, the part of this great Empire which is the safest as far as war is concerned is the part that has no armaments whatever. Take our own Dominion of Canada, without a gun or a
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  soldier on the frontier. That is the safest part of the Empire to live in, but if 127 years ago, there had been a different spirit, we would have a different spirit now between the two nations of Canada and the United States. If 127 years ago we had erected one gun on the northern side of the frontier, the United States would have erected two on the south, we would have erected three on the north, they seven or eight on the south and so on right across, until the whole line of 3,000 miles from St. John's to Vancouver would have been bristling with armaments. Then someone would have said something or done something, a covert act would have been committed, and there would have been war within two or three years. Then there would have been an armed peace—a peace worse than the war itself. That is what might have happened 127 years ago, but we had peace and we have had it there during all these years because we had the will for peace. Let me draw the attention of the hon. Member for North-West Camberwell when he speaks of these things as a necessity. We say they are not a necessity and that we want first of all disarmament of the mind and of the nations as a whole. I say that this great nation of ours which has taught the world how to fight ought to lead the nations back to the paths of peace.
  Captain CROOKSHANK: If I intervene in this Debate just for a few minutes it is not to follow the last speaker in his very picturesque description of what might have happened along the Canadian frontier or the fears of the hon. Lady the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) about air attacks on London from New York, but merely to touch on one or two points more related to foreign policy which were raised earlier in the evening, because this Debate has ranged over a very wide area. The complaint which the Opposition is apparently bringing to-day against the Government is that they have not been farseeing and active enough in pursuing the policy of disarmament whether at Geneva or elsewhere. That point I should have thought might better have been postponed because the matter, even as we are speaking now, is very much sub judice in Geneva, and I would remand the Committee that what we say here is very often carried far wider over the world than many of those who speak have any idea could possibly be the case.

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  Members who, perhaps, have no great opinion of their own oratorical skill, find their words reproduced up and down the whole of the civilised world, and may perhaps in a moment of thoughtlessness do immeasurable harm to the very subject of disarmament which has been the subject of the discussion to-day.
  The hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby), who opened the Debate, and the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) pinned their criticism on to two or three points, and one which they both dealt with was the reference to a suggested treaty which M. Briand touched upon as between France and the United States by which the two countries should put war outside the pale of legality. The Government was invited by the Opposition speakers to adopt a similar policy. The leading article in to-day's "Times" has been quoted several times, and there were some words which I remember noticing this morning in which war between this country and the United States was stigmatised as being "unthinkable." This new idea of the Opposition that we should, by a solemn covenant, say that war between these two countries should be illegal seems to me a very different argument from that which we heard in our own country when the Government attempted to pass a Bill which laid it down that the general strike should be considered illegal. "Oh, no," it was said, "in that case it is not worth putting into words'—
  Mr. KELLY: You could not find the words.
  Captain CROOKSHANK: Words were found which will be eminently satisfactory if the time comes, though we hope it will long be postponed, for it to be put into force, but the whole argument then was that if trouble arose there would be such an urge among working men that no form of words in an Act of Parliament would be effective. Yet to-day we are invited to do something in a far more difficult sphere, because hon. Gentlemen opposite will quite realise that, whereas it is in some ways possible to do certain things in your own country where all speak your own language, and where there in a common outlook on the majority of the subjects which come into political discussion, it is not at all easy to translate
  1868
  that similar action into the international world where people have entirely different traditions and ideals and ways of looking at a problem.
  The second point discussed this afternoon and which was particularly introduced into the speech of the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Mosley), was the extraordinary hallucinations which the Opposition seems to have as to the subject of the Foreign Secretary's conversation with Signor Mussolini—hallucinations which the right hon. Gentleman entirely dispelled when he made his official reply. The third point which cropped up was our relations with Russia. Several times quotations were made from the Home Secretary's speech in which—I only take the words as they were given—he said that "the world must unite to stamp out Communism." The Opposition seem to think that that is something very terrible. They must be forgetful of their own policy. Only in this morning's "Times" I read that one of the things to be discussed at the Labour Conference in the autumn is the question of turning out Communists from their own party. Is it so strange that the Home Secretary should say that Communism in the world at large is a public danger, when they themselves are apparently going to be invited to recognise that in their own party it is an even worse menace? Apparently they have not even read the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) during the week-end, because, if ever one wanted an indictment of Communism—I am not talking about Russia—it is to be found in the words he spoke to his followers. The Opposition, apparently, do not endorse them, but the right hon. Gentleman's own union most certainly and emphatically did.
  Then the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull asks why we do not talk about Persia and the capitulations. There might or might not be a great deal to be said on that subject, but, when negotiations are going on, as the Under-Secretary has stated several times in this House, it is just as well, perhaps, that discussion should not take place here. One would have thought that the Opposition, looking down the Foreign Office Votes for discussion, would have raised two matters which are of outstanding importance in foreign affairs. The first

  1869
  is that of the chaotic conditions in China and the reactions that they have upon our foreign policy. But the Opposition are getting a little wily. They have burnt their fingers once over China, and they have very carefully avoided raising that subject to-day. The second matter is one that would have been, not only topical, but of very great interest, namely, the whole question of our position in Egypt, arising out of the discussions which were so happily settled, as we understand, a few days ago. Not having raised, however, the questions that were most obvious, they plunge into this question of disarmament, which, in view of the present conversations at Geneva, it would seem to be particularly improper to raise, for fear that we might do something to hamper what is so desirable there.
  We may take it that the text upon which some of the Opposition speakers have been preaching is the text of the most extraordinary Resolution which appears on the Order Paper, although, of course, it has not been moved, and which has formed the basis of a good deal of what they have said. It deals with the question of national security and disarmament, which is a wide enough heading for any Resolution, and it suggests that:
  "This House views with apprehension the development of sectional alliances."
  That has been entirely put out of the discussion by the speech of the Foreign Secretary, because he carefully explained that any sectional alliances that might or might not have been signed—whether the whole of the 12 which the hon. Member for Brightside read out or not—were merely alliances between two nations, under which they might come to more friendly terms with each other under the general ægis of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Some of them, to be sure, were between Powers which have nothing on earth to do with the League, which are not members of it; but the majority of them were between members of the League, and, therefore, subject to all the overriding considerations of the Covenant. The Foreign Secretary emphatically said that, so far as we were concerned, there was no such alliance, and that, so far as we were concerned, there were no secret clauses. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Mosley), remembering, perhaps, his Conservative tendencies, took up the line of argument
  1870
  that in past treaties there always were secret clauses, and that therefore, there must be some to-day—the most fantastic argument, probably, that ever issued even from his lips. The Resolution goes on to say:
  "These sectional alliances indefinitely postpone any prospect of a substantial advance towards disarmament"—
  a real Pontifex maximus utterance on the part of the Socialist party. How do they know anything of the kind? How can they indefinitely postpone disarmament, or anything else? By improving the relationships between nations, they bring about a far happier frame of mind over Europe and the world than would otherwise be the case. Then the Resolution goes on:
  "peace can only be established on a permanent basis by a definite and open policy at fair dealing, conciliation and respect of national rights."
  That is exactly what we claim, and what the Opposition, in the case of China and Russia, have been so anxious to deny to our Government and our people. Open diplomacy means, as we understand it, and as the hon. Member for Brightside understands it, that the result of your diplomacy should be made open to the world, open to the Governments, and openly arrived at. What about that extraordinary Russian treaty of which, at the very moment when he was signing it he himself, his Noble Friend in another place, said he did not know the terms? Who are the Socialist party that they should come and preach to us, who have nothing to hide whatsoever, that we should hide nothing? We have repeatedly urged that national rights should receive consideration, and, every time that question arises, attempts are made to thwart it in the Socialist party. They say:
  "We should take a bold initiative in the establishment of national security guaranteed by the League of Nations."
  That is what we have done. Every observer who has followed the conference that is now going on at Geneva knows perfectly well that it is only the British representatives who have produced a scheme at all, a perfectly definite scheme for disarmament, most scientifically contrived and well thought out; and yet, apparently, this Resolution is to be brought forward as though we had done nothing. We have done everything in our power, and certainly this country has led the way.

  1871
  Finally, the Resolution makes reference to compulsory arbitration. The Socialist party are talking about compulsory arbitration in international affairs, when everyone who ever mentions the word "arbitration" in industrial disputes is howled out of court by them. When Amendments were moved from this side to a Bill, as was the case not very long ago, to enable something to be done towards co-operation and arbitration, they took to their tents and sulked, and would have nothing whatever to do with it; and yet they have the face to put a Resolution on the Paper urging that we should press forward compulsory arbitration. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was perfectly right in what he said. It is by modest and slow steps that the desired results will be obtained. Do not let us rush forward blindly to put on paper all sorts of nonsense like these words that I have touched upon. I am sure I am perfectly right in saying that, if my right hon. Friend were asked what his opinion had been at the Council of the League of Nations before he took the seals of the Foreign Office, and what it is now, it would be a revelation to one and all to know how he has advanced the work of pacification of the Council. I hope that the Government will go forward on the lines that he is following, not in search of spectacular results, as the Socialist party invite us to do, contrary, in international affairs, to all their principles in home affairs, but that they will go right on slowly but surely and will, as I am certain will be the case, get the loyal co-operation of the House of Commons and of all thinking people in this country. We shall then achieve the results for which we all hope.
  Mr. TREVELYAN: Before I say anything about what the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) has just been putting before the Committee, I should like to refer to something that was said by the Foreign Secretary which does not bear immediately upon the main subject of our discussion. The right hon Gentleman said, on behalf of the Government, that he would undertake that no engagements involving the country in the obligation of war would be undertaken without the knowledge of Parliament. I was extremely glad to hear that statement, because, in the first Session of this Parliament, I moved, on behalf of the
  1872
  Labour party, a Motion the main part of which ran as follows:
  "That no treaty should be ratified and no diplomatic arrangement or understanding with a foreign State involving, directly or indirectly, national obligations, shall be concluded without the consent of Parliament."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th March, 1925; col. 1430, Vol. 181.]
  When I moved that Motion, I was rather surprised at the extremely unfriendly way in which that proposal was received by the spokesman of the Government, who was not the right hon. Gentleman, but his Under-Secretary—not the present Under-Secretary, but his predecessor. I was surprised because I thought that the terms of the Motion were in consonance with the right hon. Gentleman's general principles. I am extremely glad now that we had from the right hon. Gentleman a statment that is so explicit in saying that engagements involving the country in an obligation of war would be submitted to the House of Commons, and that the House would have an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon them. I wish to note that, because I think it is a great constitutional advance if it is accepted by both parties, as it has for some time been accepted by ourselves.
  I come now to what the hon. and gallant Member for Gainsborough was saying. There are two things I should like to allude to. The first is that he rather sneered at us for not discussing the question of China. We should be perfectly ready to discuss it, and I think some of us were thinking of raising it before the Session is out, but we have had plenty to talk about to-day. We are not afraid of discussing it. I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks the Government are profoundly successful in China. I do not know whether he has been observing the British Trade Returns. I do not know whether he has been studying what is happening in China and our relations with the Chinese. I should not have thought it was very much to be proud of on the part of the Government. There is one thing of which both sides of the House are glad, and that is that our Army has not had any fighting. Thank God for that. If we can say of our Army a few months hence—
  "The grand old Duke of York, he had 10,000 men,
  He marched them up to the top of a hill, and he marched them down again."

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  we shall on this side all be very pleased. Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman taunted us in a kindly way with being in favour of international arbitration when we were not in favour of industrial arbitration. I will only point out one difference, though there are many. One very important difference is that in the case of compulsory industrial arbitration neither the masters nor the men are in favour of it at present. I am not discussing whether they ought to be. I only say that is the fact that neither side is in favour of it. But the hon. and gallant Gentleman says the Labour party come forward with a new idea to make war illegal. Not in the least. It was the idea of the Protocol. The Protocol was approved by all the nations, and that is the difference, that if we had had a Government that was in favour of the Protocol, we should have had in effect compulsory arbitration for all the world, a very different thing from the situation in the industrial world, where neither party was ready to adopt it.
  The object of this Debate is an exploration of what our nation, holding as it does the premier position at Geneva, would be able to do in the matter of disarmament if the Government was rightly inspired. I think, to put it quite shortly, it is to put forward two ideas, that the Government ought to take the lead in disarmament and not wait for others, and, secondly, that disarmament can only be real and effective if it is accompanied by a policy of all-in arbitration, and the sense of security which that would create. Our complaint, and the reason why we shall divide the Committee, is that we do not see any signs of our Government realising to a necessary degree our obligations and opportunities in either of these directions. I do not think the interest or the participation in this Debate of either side represents the real interest of the country in this matter. We share with France the principal responsibility for the Versailles Treaty, for the settlement after the War and for the League of Nations, and the success of the League of Nations is in this country desired by more of the population than any other thing has ever been desired in our time. The movement of the League of Nations Union, utterly unpolitical, has attached to it more people from all parties than any other movement in our time. What does
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  that mean? It does not merely mean that they desire to have the League of Nations in existence. It means that they believe the League of Nations may lead to the end of war. The great hope of Versailles was the prospect of disarmament, and the only one unqualified advantage in the Versailles Treaty was the disarmament of Germany, and the corollary and consequence of the disarmament of Germany was the disarmament of the other nations. Here we are, eight years after May, 1919, when this statement was made to the world as the great hope of the world. How much of it is being realised yet?
  "The Allied and Associated Powers wish to make it clear that their requirements in regard to German armaments were not made solely with the object of rendering it impossible to resume her policy of military aggression. They are also the first steps towards that general reduction and limitation of armaments which they seek to bring about, as one of the most fruitful preventives of war which it will be one of the first duties of the League of Nations to promote."
  There is the promise. Time is pressing. It is eight years since that was made and what has happened? Have armaments been reduced? Has there been any serious disarmament since then? The challenging question keeps ringing out, "Did we mean that?" and it is a question which will be asked louder every day. Moreover, let those who are interested in the League of Nations nate that it will be asked more definitely in the League of Nations now than it ever was before because Germany is in the League of Nations, and all Germany is asking: Is it going to be fulfilled? Part of Germany is sneering, "You never meant it." Another large part of Germany is saying very sincerely, "We have learned our lesson. Has not the rest of the world learned it?" At any rate, that question is going to be asked more and more every year.
  Where is the world going to look for its lead in disarmament? At present the Governments are waiting on one another. Disarmament conferences and committees meet and each Government says, "We will do well if others will do well; we will limit if others will limit," and no one makes drastic proposals. Some hon. Members will have read the report by Lord Cecil of Chelwood of the Preparatory Committee for the Disarmament Conference. Those

  1875
  who know him know perfectly well that he does want disarmament, and at the end of this report, in which he discusses all the difficulties, and points out the differences between the attitude of the British and other representatives, he ends up on a different note. Note what is going to happen. This Committee that he reports on has been preparing a skeleton draft which might be made a disarmament treaty. There have been all sorts of difficulties in connection with it. There has not been complete agreement and there is to be a fresh Committee to finish it. This is the way in which Lord Cecil concludes:
  "From these observations it will be seen that on a very large number of very important questions agreement was reached. The general principles of limitation of the land and air forces are not seriously in dispute, and even with regard to the sea the differences can scarcely be considered irreconcilable. On the question of budgetary expenditure, I certainly understood that a provisional arrangement had been reached, and with respect to international supervision I cannot help hoping that further consideration will show that a very considerable approach has been made to agreement. In other words, if the countries represented at Geneva really desire a draft convention for the limitation of armaments, which shall state the principles and methods by which such limitation can be done, that agreement is within their grasp.''
  The question is, what is going to be put into the agreement, and whether there is going to be anything effective put into it? I want my country to take the lead. There is no chance if nobdy is going to make the original suggestion. What I should like to see is a big flagrant reduction proposed by our country in order to arouse the conscience of the world and to startle the lethargy of the world. I do not mean that we should say unconditionally we intend to do this and that, but that we should say we, the British, are ready if other nations will do the same. If other nations will follow, we are ready to do something really big—to abolish all our capital ships, to abolish all cruisers over 5,000 tons—I am only putting forward what we might say; something that would make the world feel that we meant business—to abolish all tanks, to abolish all aircraft, to abolish all preparation of chemicals. I say what is the use of our prating about our good intentions and waiting for somebody else to do the good actions? I want my
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  country to do some great, drastic thing which will create a new atmosphere in the world. I believe, in spite of the obvious disapproval of some hon. Members opposite, there are many people in their party who would not be sorry for this to be done. The difficulty, I think, which hampers and holds back our statesmen is that we have ceased to take the lead in producing these international conditions which will alone facilitate disarmament. The only real, stable foundation for disarmament is the exception by the great nations of all-in arbitration.
  10.0 p.m.
  How have the Government acted in relation to that? They have not got a very inspiring record. The Government began by rejecting the Protocol which was prepared in 1924 and which was supported, as far as was known, by all the nations of the world. It was certainly supported by France—certainly by all the principal nations. All-in arbitration and disarmament were to have been the essential sequel to it. The present Foreign Secretary thought that he had got something better—the Locarno policy. No one will deny that it was something, but few people will think it offered as much as the Protocol. The idea of Locarno contained the very idea which we are discussing and urging in this Resolution which causes the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) to scoff. Locarno, after all, contained that idea, and the Foreign Secretary himself declared that the idea of it was "disarmament through security, and security through arbitration." In the Locarno Treaty, in the framework of it, there was all-in arbitration between Germany and France and between Germany and Belgium. That system of all-in arbitration—arbitration on every subject, not only on local questions—we are guaranteeing as a people. We set our seal to it for other people but we will not adopt it for ourselves. It is a curious position for the right hon. Gentleman to adopt, that when it comes to our own case, it is not good enough, or it is too good for us.
  The policy of the Government in regard to all-in arbitration is, first of all, to refuse the Protocol. Then they refused to submit legal questions uniformly to arbitration. They refused to subscribe to the optional cause. There are 23 other

  1877
  countries that have accepted it. We did not accept, in spite of the fact that we preached arbitration to France, Germany and Belgium. In 1925 Switzerland and Italy made a new Treaty. By that Treaty the two countries submit all questions to arbitration. I think in the same year the Swiss turned to France, and asked them whether they would have an all-in arbitration. France accepted it, and there is a Franco-Swiss all-in arbitration. But when the Swiss turned to Great Britain, "No," says the right hon. Gentleman, "there is nothing doing; we are not in favour of all-in arbitration." The same thing occurred with the Swedish Government. The proposal by the Swedish Government was refused. The same thing occurred with the Dutch Government. The Dutch offered us all-in arbitration, and it was refused. M. Karneberk, the Foreign Secretary for Holland was asked in their Parliament why it was that Great Britain had refused. He said it would not be courteous to Great Britain to say why. The position is this. We no longer take the lead in arbitration, and I think it is a pity we do not. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not mind if I again press this question of France and America as an example and ask why we cannot do the same kind of thing. France goes to the Americans and offers them—I will quote the actual words of M. Briand:
  "France would be ready publicly to sign any reciprocal engagement with the United States with the object of outlawing war according to the expression in use in America."
  These are the governing words of his offer. The matter is now being thoroughly and seriously discussed. I can conceive of no reason on earth, except want of will and want of imagination, why our Foreign Secretary should not say the same to the United States. We have abolished war in our hearts. Well, then, why cannot be abolish it in the terms of Treaty? Perhaps those of the next generation might not wish to abolish war as much as we do. Perhaps there might be a change and, therefore, let us then tie them down with the same common sense as exists in this generation. On 4th June, 1928, our Government will have to decide whether it is going to renew the Treaty of arbitration with America and in what form. We already have got an arbitration Treaty with America, but it is not an "all-in" arbi-
  1878
  tration Treaty. That Treaty ends on 4th June, 1928, which is 20 years from 4th June, 1908, when we made that first arbitration Treaty, and why cannot we, if we are really bound to the Americans in this way, offer them an "all-in" arbitration Treaty? I think we are all ready for it. I think many right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite are ready for it. Why should not our Government offer it and begin a series of Treaties outlawing war and arbitrating every question to the instrumentality of the League of Nations?
  I do not want to speak long. The case is quite obvious to everyone. I think our people will soon become restive. We all know perfectly well what is going to happen, if not in our generation then in the next, if armaments go on. It is not a difference between the two sides of the House; it is not a difference between pacifists and warmongers, or between Labour and Conservative. Over and over again we have stated here, it has been stated from both sides of the Committee to-day, what is going to happen in the next war. It has been read out in detail by my hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) on our side, and it was summarised on the other side by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Duff Cooper), who said that in the next war we should wipe out whole cities and all our monuments of civilisation. There is no difference. We all know our fate. We know our cities will be all depopulated and our citizens slain in millions. There is no difference in opinion, and still time flies fast. Governments, not through ill-will but through no will, are allowing armaments to accumulate to-day. Why do we consent to go on living under this sentence of death? We are the most important voice in the united jury of the greater nations which is now condemning the world. Surely the Government realise what will happen to them or their successors—it does not matter which particular Government it may be—if they come back from a disarmament conference with nothing in their hands. Unless they can come back with £30,000,000 or,£50,000,000 to be struck off every year from the ghastly bill which we pay in order to destroy our civilisation in the next generation, surely the Government know that there are pent-up volumes of frustrated hope and angry disappointment which will make it hard for any Government,

  1879
  even this Government with its 200 majority, if they come back with nothing. Unless they are to come back with nothing, they must be quick about it and present a real policy which will grip the imagination and the faith of the world.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I think we all recognise that the great bulk of Members of the House of Commons are most anxious to keep foreign affairs outside the arena of party politics. I, certainly, have no complaint to make of the tone, practically speaking, of any of the speeches that have been made to-day. I think it was my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) who said that it is sometimes a humble Member of the House who makes a speech on foreign affairs which sometimes becomes misconstrued and misinterpreted in foreign countries. Therefore, I think it is essential to do all that we can, when speaking about foreign affairs, to get rid of our conceptions of party for the moment and to speak about foreign affairs from the larger point of view.
  A very large field has been covered, and if I really attempted to answer or to reply to all the speeches made, I should not really be able to finish my speech and, therefore, I think, if the Committee will allow me, that I had better concentrate on one or two of the definite questions that have been put, and one or two of the criticisms levelled against the Government. One question was asked by the hon. Member who initiated the Debate this afternoon about the evacuation of the Rhineland, and I think that was also referred to by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton). They expressed the hope that evacuation of the Rhineland would soon take place, and the Secretary of State has asked me to say that he was very sorry he did not reply to that point which was made by the hon. Gentleman who started the Debate. As a matter of fact, he informs me that the question of the evacuation of the Rhineland was not raised in Geneva at this last Session, and His Majesty's Government do not think that any useful purpose could be served in discussing the question now. As a matter of fact, there has been a considerable
  1880
  reduction of troops in the Rhineland since December, 1926. His Majesty's Government consider that this reduction has not been carried far enough and, indeed, has not been carried as far as was contemplated in the Resolution of the Ambassadors' Conference, and His Majesty's Government will continue to do their best to see that the early completion of the expectations raised by that Resolution of the Ambassadors' Conference is carried out. I think that answers the question by the hon. Gentleman opposite.
  Then the question of Russia was raised. It was raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeen and the hon. Member—I do not see him in his place now—for Stourbridge (Mr. Wellock). The hon. Gentleman opposite and the hon. Member for East Aberdeen said they hoped we should soon be able to resume diplomatic relations with Russia. I must say at once, and, of course, it is a truism, that we have got absolutely no quarrel with the Russian people at all. None. We want to live in amity with the Russian people. We are very anxious to do trade with Russia. We are very anxious to be friends with Russia, but until the Soviet Government make up their mind to drop propaganda against the British Empire it is impossible for us to have diplomatic relations with them or to remain on the footing with then that we are with other countries of the world. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) said that she believed that oil interests had a great deal to do with the rupture of diplomatic relations. I cannot believe that the hon. Lady really thinks that. It is surely not necessary for me to say that the oil interests had absolutely nothing to do with it, and that such a consideration was not even as heavy as gossamer in the scale.
  Miss WILKINSON: May I make a correction there? I thought I made it clear and that I said that the oil companies were behind the "Daily Mail" campaign against Russia, and that that had a great deal to do with creating an atmosphere in regard to relations with Russia. I said that they were behind the "Daily Mail" campaign, which created the atmosphere.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am very glad that the hon. Member has made

  1881
  that qualification. We were considerably influenced by the fact that month after month and week after week we were faced by this Government carrying on propaganda and intriguing against us in every part of the world. The Soviet Government has only to turn over a new leaf in that respect, and only to make it clear that it will cease this propaganda and recognise its obligations, like every other civilised community, and we shall certainly be prepared to resume diplomatic relations.
  Various hon. Members, among them the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Rennie Smith) asked me to say something about the tripartite conference which is now going on at Geneva. I think we ought not, at this moment, to discuss in the House what is going on at Geneva. To the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) I would say that an Under-Secretary of State is a very unimportant individual.
  Captain CROOKSHANK: I never said that.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Even the words said by an Under-Secretary may be misconstrued and carried abroad in a truncated form. All I can say is that the British representatives have gone to Geneva in order to contribute to a solution of the great problem of peace. We shall do our best, and no feeling of mere pride or amour-propre are going to stand in the way. The hon. Member for Newcastle East (Mr. Connolly) raised the question of gas warfare and asked what we were doing about it. I would remind him that in the Treaty of Versailles poisonous gas warfare is absolutely prohibited in the future. Naturally, we shall abide by that Treaty. In addition to that, in the second Treaty of Washington the nations who signed that Treaty agreed to be bound by the prohibition in the Treaty of Versailles. That, I think, will probably satisfy the hon. Member.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: But we keep on manufacturing gas and improving the methods of producing it.
  Commander BELLAIRS: What is the position in Russia?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I think the hon. Member for Newcastle, East, may
  1882
  remain satisfied that we shall adhere to our obligations under the Treaty.
  Mr. SHEPHERD: But we are still manufacturing gas.
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The right hon. Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyan) asked me if I could refer in some way to the message sent by M. Briand to the United States, and several hon. Members have referred to that subject. I think we ought to deal with one thing at a time. At the present moment, we are engaged with the United States and Japan in considering the very urgent problem of naval disarmament, and until that is out of the way I do not think we ought to complicate matters by dealing with any other particular problem. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) made an interesting suggestion, which was also made by several other hon. Members, that war ought to be made illegal. That is, of course, the object of the Geneva Protocol; but the difficulty is that you have to define the aggressor. If you make war illegal, in order to show that an illegality has occurred you have to define the aggressor. You may have two very nervous countries, co-terminous with one another, where frontier issues may arise, and it would be practically impossible to define the aggressor in that case. We are all in agreement that, if possible, war should be stopped, but I feel that we must advance along practical lines. Another suggestion, made by the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones), was that all forms of aerial warfare should be abolished. It would be a good thing if that kind of warfare could be abolished, but again I feel that it is not practical politics at the present moment. We must really do what we can to advance on practical lines, because if we try merely to deal with impossible realisations, we shall make no progress.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I have been trying ever since I have been in this House to find out why that proposal is impracticable; why it is more impracticable than the proposal to limit armaments in any other way. I have suggested that the thorough method is the only method. What is the practical

  1883
  objection to the policy of abolishing aerial warfare?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: At the moment I do not think it is a practical proposition. In order that a proposition should be practical you have to find people who will agree, and at the present moment I doubt very much whether you would find the world in general willing to abolish the aerial fighting arm altogether. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has it been proposed?"] I am coming to that in a moment. The hon. Member said that no single step had been taken towards general disarmament, and the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Dalton) said that we had achieved very little towards general disarmament. Have they really forgotten what has happened under the Preparatory Conference? The hon. Member for Peckham criticised us for opposing the limitation of armament expenditure at the Preparatory Conference. The proposal that was made was to give a limitation to expenditure on war material; the proposal that was made was that this limitation should take place over a five years period, and that if less was spent in the first, second, third or fourth year, the whole of that could be made up towards the end of the period. In our opinion that might have resulted in a very sudden increase in war expenditure in certain cases, and that again would have compelled other countries to increase at the same pace. There were other reasons as well. I maintain that it was not such a simple proposition as hon. Members opposite think, and that was one of the reasons which prevented us accepting it. The hon. Member also criticised us for opposing the supervision of armaments. As a matter of fact, although the Washington Treaty has been a great success—we signed it with other countries—there was no supervision proposal or condition under the Washington Treaty. The proposal put forward before the Preparatory Conference was that the Disarmament Committee should be able to go into any country; a sort of Committee of Inquiry. Even the Council of the League of Nations cannot do this without the consent of the parties concerned. I do not believe that countries in general would tolerate it for a moment. In the first place, it would be usurping the functions of the Council of the League. In so far
  1884
  as merely collecting material and the making of reports and sending to the Council are concerned, it would do on more than the Secretariat of the League does at the present moment. The only use of such an inquiring body would be if it really possessed the goodwill of the whole world. I do not believe that it would possess the goodwill of the whole world in inquiries of that kind. Therefore, evasion would certainly take place. That is one of the reasons why, when that proposal was raised at the Preparatory Conference, we could not accept it.
  I feel that His Majesty's Government have shown their earnestness and desire to contribute what they could to this disarmament problem. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last said that he wished that this country would take the lead in disarmament. Does he forget that this country was the first country at the Preparatory Conference to submit a draft convention on disarmament? France followed suit and produced her own draft convention. What has emerged from this Preparatory Committee? You have only to read the White Paper that was laid a little time ago to realise the immense measure of agreement on many important aspects of this problem. The problem is so vast, so complicated, that I think no one has any right to assume that an immediate solution will be found. It is very important to go carefully and to go patiently. Lord Cecil himself said, in a speech not very long ago—I was glad to hear the tribute paid to him by an hon. Member opposite—that nothing would prejudice the chance of final success and achievement more than impatient and ill-considered action now.
  I have said that from this Preparatory Conference a large measure of agreement had emerged. I believe that the result so far is full of promise. Agreements were come to in regard to land armaments, naval armaments and air armaments. In regard to armaments as a whole, general agreement was reached to limit the effectives in the services of the armed forces, the land and sea forces, organised on a military basis. That is a vital agreement, for it forms the basis of the whole superstructure of detail which some day will have to be built up and completed. To go back for one moment to land armaments, various definitions

  1885
  were agreed upon, and, although they were merely definitions, it has always seemed to me that it is of vital importance to get these definitions, because in discussing these matters it is very important that you should mean the same thing. Without an agreement about these definitions no real progress is possible. In regard to naval armaments—I do not propose to go through the list—a very large number of agreements were reached. In fact, the whole of the agreements come to at the Washington Conference in regard to these particular subjects were agreed to again by a much larger number of nations.
  In regard to air armaments, a general agreement was arrived at to limit them in accordance with figures to be laid down. Finally, there were two other important agreements. There was a general agreement that an annual statement should be sent to the League of Nations by each of the contracting Powers in regard to their military effectiveness, and there was also a general agreement that an annual statement should be sent to the League of Nations of the amount proposed and actually expended in the current and preceding years respectively. If these two agreements are carried out, they will prevent any sudden or unexpected increase in armaments, without the world in general knowing about it. As so much emphasis has been laid upon the matter from the oposite side of the Committee, I feel it necessary to make this statement in order to prevent anyone saying in future that no progress has been made. I do not say for a moment that there is not much more to be done, but do say that there has been a considerable step in advance and that the basis has been laid for future negotiations and discussion.
  There is one more subject with which I should like to deal. The hon. Member for Peckham and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle criticised our attitude in regard to compulsory arbitration. They said, we ought to have made a declaration in accordance with Article 36 of the Statute of the Permanent Court. There are various reasons why we still think it is not advisable to make that declaration at present. In the first place, Article 13 of the Covenant already largely safeguards disputes that are not likely to lead to a
  1886
  rupture of diplomatic relations. This Article binds us to refer to arbitration any matter which we recognise as suitable and which diplomacy cannot settle. As to disputes likely to lead to a rupture, these are already covered by Article 15 of the Covenant. Under that Article, we are bound to submit such disputes either to arbitration or to the Council of the League. Therefore, the only result that would follow, if we made this declaration of compulsory arbitration, would be that a certain number of cases, which would otherwise go to the Council of the League, would go to the Permanent Court at The Hague. In addition to this, we have already a considerable number of arbitration treaties with foreign Powers, which provide for the submission to arbitration of differences of a legal nature or the interpretation of treaties. Not alone is this the case, but 19 countries have in the past signed agreements with us. Therefore, the sphere in which this declaration would operate would be a very narrow one indeed. It would only operate in regard to very small differences which was really not subject-matter for arbitration at all. Also in regard to those questions which are not likely to lead to rupture, but affecting the independence or the vital interests or the honour of the countries concerned, it is asked: Why cannot we submit these to compulsory arbitration? There are one or two very important reasons.
  In the first place, no constitutional Government can guarantee that the necessary legislation that would arise in case of an unfavourable arbitral award, would be passed by Parliament. We cannot possibly guarantee that, and I need only remind hon. Members of the strong popular feeling aroused when an attempt was made, in 1907, at the Hague Conference, to carry out a measure of compulsory arbitration in the shape of an international Prize Court. That proposal was decisively negatived, and in the future we have no guarantee whatever that if an arbitral award went against us, we should be able to carry the legislation in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Twenty years ago."] I merely quoted it as an illustration and exactly the same arguments apply to-day. Another very strong argument is that our Constitution is not a unitary Constitution. We have all the time in this

  1887
  matter to get the consent of India and the Dominions. You have an exactly analogous position in the United States of America, where they have to get the consent of their separate States, and it is for that reason that the United States have up till now declined to make that declaration; and in fact we cannot possibly proceed in this matter as though we did not require the consent of every other part of the Empire. As a matter of fact, I have here in this box a declaration, in a speech made by the Leader of the Opposition, at Geneva, when he was Prime Minister, that this required a great deal of careful thought, and that before making the declaration, a Commission would have to be set up very carefully to go into the whole matter.
  Now I think I have answered most of these questions. May I end my speech by saying this, that it is the policy of the Foreign Office and of the Government to keep on good terms with all their neigh-
  bours. We want to live in amity with the whole of the rest of the world, and we are prepared to make sacrifices to do so. Just as an individual, if he is a wise man, abstains from being provocative, is patient, is conciliatory, and tries to understand the point of view of other people, so the Government are determined, while not betraying their trusteeship to the nation, to do all in their power to defend and fortify the citadel of peace. As a Government we have proved that over and over again, in China and elsewhere; and although we may sometimes suffer rebuffs, we shall continue to follow this policy, believing that in the long run it is going to prevail, and that as the world grows older it will become ever more anxious to settle its disputes by goodwill rather than by arms.
  Question put, "That a sum not exceeding £117,573 be granted to His Majesty for the said Service."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 105; Noes, 222.

  Division No. 257.]

  AYES.

  [10. 40 p.m.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hudson, J. H. Huddersfield

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  Baker, Walter

  Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Barnes, A.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Batey, Joseph

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Snell, Harry

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Bromley, J.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Sullivan, J.

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Kennedy, T.

  Sutton, J. E.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

  Kirkwood, D.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lansbury, George

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

  Compton, Joseph

  Lawrence, Susan

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Connolly, M.

  Lawson, John James

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Varley, Frank B.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lowth, T.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lunn, William

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Mackinder, W.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dennison, R.

  Montague, Frederick

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Duncan, C.

  Morris, R. H.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Dunnico, H.

  Mosley, Oswald

  Wellock, Wilfred

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)

  Murnin, H.

  Whiteley, W.

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Greenall, T.

  Palin, John Henry

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Paling, W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Groves, T.

  Potts, John S.

  Windsor, Walter

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wright, W.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Riley, Ben

  Hardie, Georae D.

  Ritson, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles

  Hayday, Arthur

  Rose, Frank H.

  Edwards.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Neville, Sir Reginald J.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Blundell, F. N.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Oakley, T.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Harland, A.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Pilcher, G.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Raine, Sir Walter

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Henderson, Lt.-Col. Sir V. L. (Bootle)

  Ramsden, E.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Buchan, John

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Remer, J. R.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Burman, J. B.

  Hills, Major John Waller

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Hilton, Cecil

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)

  Carver, Major W. H.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Salmon, Major I.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Hudson, R. S. (Curaberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

  Christle, J. A.

  Huntingfield, Lord

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Jacob, A. E.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Cope, Major William

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Kidd, J. (Linllthgow)

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn., N.)

  King, Commodore Henry Douglas

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Styles, Captain H. Walter

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Frase

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Loder, J. de V.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

  Long, Major Eric

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Lougher, Lewis

  Waddington, R.

  Dawson, Sir Phillip

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)

  MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

  Wells, S. R.

  Elliot, Major Walter E.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  England, Colonel A.

  McLean, Major A.

  Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Forrest, W.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Womersley, W. J

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Mason, Lieut-Col. Glyn K.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Meller, R. J.

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Merriman, F. B.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Grace, John

  Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

  Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain Lord

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Stanley.

  Grant, Sir J. A.

  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put; and agreed to.

  Original Question again proposed.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask
  1890
  leave to sit again," put and agreed to.—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  NAVY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1925–26.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE IN THE Chair.]
  "Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1926, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Navy Service, 1925–26. Votes.

  Deficits.

  Surpluses.

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, etc., of Officer, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, and Civilian employed on Fleet Services.

  —

  20,534

  11

  10

  334,385

  16

  9

  —

  2

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy.

  3,074

  16

  3

  —

  —

  109,334

  11

  0

  3

  Medical Services

  —

  —

  9,518

  17

  10

  7,842

  5

  4

  4

  Fleet Air Arm

  —

  —

  —

  —

  5

  Educational Services

  —

  —

  7,969

  5

  8

  704

  10

  10

  6

  Scientific Services

  —

  —

  17,868

  18

  7

  2,979

  4

  7

  7

  Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Fleet Reserve, and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, etc,.

  —

  561

  1

  8

  21,447

  8

  2

  —

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

  Sec. 1. Personnel

  14,886

  19

  9

  26,902

  2

  1

  —

  —

  Sec. 2. Matériel

  —

  177,329

  11

  0

  301,945

  6

  5

  —

  Sec. 3. Contract Work

  183,317

  9

  11

  17,788

  5

  0

  —

  —

  9

  Naval Armaments

  —

  50,834

  13

  6

  175,621

  3

  11

  —

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad.

  —

  164,792

  16

  1

  330,742

  17

  10

  —

  11

  Various Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  21,635

  12

  3

  13,883

  12

  8

  —

  —

  12

  Admiralty Office

  62,636

  16

  8

  —

  —

  847

  2

  3

  13

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Officers.

  —

  —

  74,937

  13

  7

  2,506

  12

  9

  14

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Men.

  44,773

  13

  1

  2,910

  19

  5

  —

  —

  15

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation, Allowances, and Gratuties.

  92,082

  13

  10

  —

  —

  2,856

  19

  10

  —

  Balance irrecoverable

  8,110

  6

  5

  —

  —

  —

  430,418

  13

  2

  475,537

  13

  3

  1,274,437

  3

  9

  127,071

  6

  7

  Total Deficits £905,956 6 5

  Total Surpluses £1,401,508 10 4

  Net Surplus £495,552 3 11

  "Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1926, that the aggregate
  over the net expenditure is £495,552 3s. 11d,. namely:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  1,401,508

  10

  4

  Total Deficits

  …

  905,956

  6

  5

  Net Surplus

  …

  495,552

  3

  11

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
  Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. McNeill.]
  expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate mans appropriated for these Services, and that, as shown in the

  1893
  Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net expenditure is £63,007 Os. 9d., namely:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  626,554

  18

  6

  Total Deficits

  …

  563,547

  17

  9

  Net Surplus

  …

  63,007

  0

  9

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Air Services, 1925–26. Votes.

  Deficits.

  Surpluses.

  Execesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, etc., of the Air Force

  —

  —

  181,091

  8

  10

  46,314

  6

  7

  2

  Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Suplies, and Transport.

  —

  116,315

  17

  4

  173,037

  13

  6

  —

  3

  Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services)

  141,817

  10

  11

  40,387

  13

  0

  —

  —

  4

  Works, Buildings, and Lands

  230,169

  4

  4

  —

  —

  44,015

  1

  2

  5

  Medical Services

  —

  9,175

  10

  9

  21,227

  8

  4

  —

  6

  Educational Services

  5,227

  4

  6

  2,026

  13

  2

  —

  —

  7

  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces

  —

  988

  13

  5

  50,931

  8

  6

  —

  8

  Civil Aviation

  —

  1,171

  12

  1

  90,959

  17

  0

  —

  9

  Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  —

  11,110

  6

  10

  10,489

  2

  7

  —

  10

  Air Ministry

  821

  5

  9

  40

  1

  0

  —

  —

  11

  Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services.

  —

  541

  3

  3

  5,488

  12

  0

  —

  —

  Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abondoned.

  3,755

  1

  5

  —

  —

  —

  381,790

  6

  11

  181,757

  10

  10

  536,225

  10

  9

  90,329

  7

  9

  Total Deficits £563,547 17 9

  Total Surpluses £626,554 18 6

  Net Surplus £63,007 0 9

  Mr. CRAWFURD: One of these Votes has already gone through without challenge, but I think we are entitled to an explanation of what this means. If I understand the Order Paper correctly, we have on the particular Vote under discussion a sum of nearly £250,000 in excess of the estimated gross expenditure. That sum is in connection with works, buildings and land. On the other side of the account we have surpluses among savings in respect of medical services, civil aviation, meteorological and other services. It seems to me that if money is to be saved on these three very valuable services and money is to be under-estimated by £250,000 on works, buildings and land, the Committee is entitled to some explanation as to how these figures come about.
  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other grants for Air Services.
  2. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Sir Samuel Hoare.]
  The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Samuel Hoare): The big under-expenditure referred to is due to two causes, first of all the slowing down of the expansion programme for the home defence force. The hon. Member will remember the deceleration of that programme, which meant a very substantial diminution of the estimated expenditure. The other reason was mainly connected with the slow progress that was made with the buildings at the Croydon Aerodrome, as the result of circumstances over which we had no control. A road had to be diverted, and there were other things as a result of which we did not spend anything like the amount of money that we expected to spend. As to the other services to which the hon. Gentleman referred, in

  1895
  the case of civil aviation the difference, again, is due to the Croydon programme going so slowly. It was not in any way due to the cutting down of subsidies or any of the other encouragements to civil aviation.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: I understand the right hon. Gentleman's explanation about the surplus of £90,000 in respect of civil aviation, but the other item to which he was referring just now, namely, "Works, buildings and lands, £230,000," is not a saving but a deficit. In the words of the Vote it is "Over-estimated gross expenditure."
  Sir S. HOARE: There was an overhead cut in the programme of works, and, taking the cut into account, there was no substantial deficiency at all. I remember that when I was introducing the Estimates, I said that there had been a cut, and that very probably there would be overspending, and I should have to come to the House for a Supplementary Estimate. As a matter of fact, I did not have to do so. In regard to civil aviation, as I have said, there has been no diminution in the grants. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's other question, as to reserves, there we found that our programme for building up reserves did not go as quickly as we expected, for various reasons of detail which I can give the hon. Gentleman if he desires them. The result was that we were not so far advanced with it as we expected to be. Since then, we have made up time, and we are now pretty well ahead with the programme.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I am sorry to ask the right hon. Gentleman questions for which quite excusably, he may not be adequately prepared, but there are one or two items here which I think ought not to be allowed to pass without some explanation. When one finds items such as "Balances, irrecoverable" and "Claims abandoned," one would like to know what are these irrecoverable balances and abandoned claims, and why they have been abandoned or are irrecoverable. This is only a small matter, and I am asking for an explanation as much out of curiosity as for any other reason, because one generally finds that there is a good deal of interest in these
  1896
  little amounts. There is, however, a much larger amount, namely:
  "Pay, etc., of the Air Force (surplus of estimated over actual gross expenditure) £184,091 8s. 10d."
  That is a substantial amount, and I should like to ask how it has come about. The sum involved is very large, and I think we ought to have some more detailed explanation, if the right hon. Gentleman is in a position to give it.
  Sir JOSEPH NALL: When the hon. and gallant Gentleman talks about balances irrecoverable and claims abandoned, is he not rather confusing the matter? Does not that relate, not to the Air Force, but to a fund known as the Lloyd George War Fund?
  Mr. CRAWFURD: It is on the Order Paper.
  11.0 p.m.
  Sir S. HOAREThe figure "Balances Irrecoverable, £3,700" is on a total expenditure of about £20,000,000, and I think, therefore, that the House need not be very suspicious about it. In any case, the Public Accounts Committee have had an opportunity of going into this small item detail by detail. It is a very small figure, a great deal less than has been the case in the past. As to the question of pay, the general answer is that there again deceleration of the home defence programme has meant that we required fewer men and officers than we expected at the beginning of the year. The programme was only decelerated some time during the course of the year. At the beginning of the year we did not know that it would be slowed down and we estimated for a larger number of officers and men than we subsequently discovered we needed.
  Mr. HARDIE: Is any part of these sums in the column showing surpluses from Cardington, where you are supposed to be building a shed to hold a lighterthan-air machine that we cannot get any information about?
  Sir S. HOARE: This is the statement of 1925–6. The airship programme then had scarcely begun. There was no substantial surplus or deficiency upon the Cardington Factory that year.
  Mr. HARDIE: While that statement is true, it is not true to say money had not been allotted for the purpose. Much has not been done yet though there has been money spent.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I should like to ask the Minister where Scotland comes in.
  The CHAIRMAN: The only matters in Order now are an explanation of why in some cases there has been over-estimating and in others under-estimating, and in consequence, what the surplus has been, and whether that surplus shall be sanctioned by the Committee.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: It is on that very point that I rise. I want to know why Scotland does not come in on the Estimate for the Air Force. We have as much right to be considered as England.
  The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Member is two years too late. This is as to how certain sums were spent in the year ending 31st March, 1926, and the opportunity for raising questions as to these Estimates was some time in 1925. The only question now is why there has been over-estimating on some heads and under-estimating on others. The policy of the Estimates themselves is not now in question.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: I want to know why Scotland cannot be considered here. There is evidently a deficit on one hand and a surplus on the other. I want to know why Scotland is neglected.
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must raise this point on the Air Estimates for 1927–28, and not on those for the past year.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

  POST OFFICE (SITES) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

  CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Acquire Lands.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): It will, perhaps, be for the convenience of the Committee if I explain that this Bill, which is merely to enable the Post Office to acquire sites for various telephone exchanges and post offices in different towns at a reasonable price, passed its
  1898
  Second Reading a few weeks ago unanimously after hon. Members opposite had been satisfied that the Bill was sound. It has since been to a Select Committee which has again reported unanimously in its favour after having made one very small Amendment. I therefore hope the Committee will allow us to obtain the Committee stage to-night.
  Mr. AMMON: Will the hon. Gentleman make clear to the Committee exactly what the Amendment was?
  Viscount WOLMER: I will. The Amendment is in Clause 2.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: I have no doubt the Select Committee went into all the details of the Bill, but this Committee has not done so yet. I do not want to delay the Noble Lord over Clause 1; there may be something more to be said on Clause 2. Can he tell us the exact purpose of Sub section(2) of Clause1?
  Viscount WOLMER: Yes. The first Sub-section of Clause 1 lays it down that the Postmaster-General shall not enter upon any contract without the sanction of the Treasury. The next Sub-section merely absolves any person with whom he is making a contract from inquiry whether he has got the Treasury's consent or not. If the Postmaster-General was an ordinary private individual, in a fiduciary capacity, and he was making a contract with another party, that party would be bound to inquire as to his title. This Sub-section merely absolves the people with whom we are dealing from doing that which otherwise they would have to do. Everybody knows that the Postmaster - General must have the Treasury's consent.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Incorporation of Lands Clauses Acts.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Viscount WOLMER: On Clause 2 in response to the request by the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon), I would point out that in paragraph (d) the Select Committee increased the final notice that the Postmaster-General may give to persons before entering on their

  1899
  land in the case of dwelling houses from 14 to 90 days. As a matter of fact, there are only two dwelling houses affected by this Bill, and the Select Committee, acting on the precedent of last year, thought 14 days not sufficient notice, and have increased it to 90 days. That was the only Amendment made by the Select Committee in the Bill and the Postmaster-General raised no sort of objection to it. We have always been anxious to give the fullest possible notice to any person whom it was necessary to disturb and also to treat such person in a perfectly fair manner as far as compensation was concerned.
  Mr. CRAWFURD: I would like to ask the Noble Lord if he will give a little information about the other paragraphs of Clause 2. Clause 2 deals with the Lands Clauses Consolidation Acts, and their application to land and sites under this Bill. Sub-section (a) deals with provisions under the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, relating to the sale of surplus land. The Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act of 1845, in general, has been made the opportunity, for nearly 100 years, for the systematic exploitation of public bodies. Whenever the community has wanted land, it has had to pay up to 20 times the value of the land. The particular provision relating to superfluous land is, I asume, that the authorities who buy the land are not entitled to get land which is not immediately necessary for the purposes they have in mind. I would like to get an assurance that Sub-section (a) abrogates that part of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act. In the preamble of this Bill, it is stated that the Post Office require sites in the City of London, in the Metropolitan Borough of Fulham, in the Metropolitan Borough of St. Pancras, in the County Borough of Blackpool, and in the Borough of Cheltenham. Blackpool is a rapidly expanding place, where it is likely the requirements of the Post Office will not remain for many years as they are today. We all know that, under the provisions of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act, with regard to superfluous land, over and over again a public authority has had to sell out land which it did not require for its immediate purposes; but, later on, when the purpose
  1900
  became urgent, the land has had to be bought back at an enormously enhanced price. The second question is: Over and over again, by special Acts of Parliament promoted by local authorities or other public bodies, certain exceptions have been made in the application of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act. I am referring particularly to those which enable a part of the purchase price to be obtained by levying an improvement rate. When the nation, apart from the local authority, requires land for national purposes, it may or may not increase the, value of surrounding Iand, and that bonus, which is given by the nation to the landowner, should be recoverable by the imposition of an improvement rate. I should like to know whether the provisions of that Act, dealing with what is called the payment of sums of money for "injurious affection," are being used or not. In other words, what are the exact modifications of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act contained in Clause 2, and has every possible use been made of precedent in the way of exceptions so that this land may be had by the Government under the most favourable conditions of sale and purchase?
  Viscount WOLMER: I am glad to be able to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We are using the Land Clauses Acts in their entirety in this matter. The only exceptions are the two exceptions mentioned in sub-Clause (a), which are not applicable to the Post Office. The first one, in regard to the superfluous land, is exactly as the hon. Gentleman has stated; it relieves the Postmaster-General from the obligation of selling again the land which is not being immediately used. The second exception, in regard to Section 133 of the Land Clauses (Consolidation) Act, refers to the Land Tax. The Crown does not pay Land Tax, and that Section is not applicable. Otherwise the whole of the Clauses of the Act are applicable to this Clause.

  CLAUSE 3.—(Compensation in case of recently altered buildings.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Captain GARRO-JONES: This Clause is another example of the Post Office as a bad landlord. It says:
  "In determining any question of disputed compensation under this Act no allowance shall be made on account of any improvement"
  in certain contingencies. On the Third Reading I intend to oppose the Bill on the ground that the Post Office has no business to be purchasing land. It is high time that all the organisations for the purchase of land for the Crown were co-ordinated. We find that there are 12 Government Departments who have the right to purchase land. They make bad buyers of land. Where they are tenants they are bad tenants, and where they are landlords they are bad landlords. Clause 3 is a retrogressive Clause, which goes against the trend of modern leasehold legislation. It provides that in certain contingencies, if improvements have been made, no compensation shall be payable by the Post Office. What is the justification for that? Is not the ordinary law of leasehold sufficiently adverse to tenants as it is, without giving further powers to the Crown as landlord? If this Clause cannot be justified, it ought to be rejected.
  Viscount WOLMER: If the hon. and gallant Member had been here on the Second Reading—
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I was.
  Viscount WOLMER: If the hon. Member had listened, if he was here, he would have heard the justification for the Clause. It does not raise any issues of landlord and tenant. The hon. and gallant Member says that the purchase of land ought to be co-ordinated. It is co-ordinated. The Office of Works does all the purchases on behalf of the Post Office and the other Government Departments. I agree with the hon. Member that it would be a very bad plan if it were arranged otherwise, as there might be two Government Departments competing against each other for the same site. The point which the hon. Member raises is very simple. On the 20th day of November, 1926, the Postmaster-General, as he is required to do by law, served notice on all the persons interested in the sites which he proposes to acquire by this Bill. Notice was served on these persons, both landlords and
  1902
  tenants, and they were given opportunities of raising any objections before the examiners of Public Bills that they might have to make. This Clause merely says that when we have to pay compensation we shall not be required to pay compensation for any improvements to the property made after that date, unless the person who has made the improvements can prove that they were necessary for the upkeep of the premises. But for this Clause it would be possible for any person who has had a notice served upon him to engage in expensive work, and then require the Postmaster-General to compensate him.

  CLAUSE 4.—(Power to enter loads for purpose of surveying.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Captain GARRO-JONES: The Noble Lord told us that the Office of Works was empowered to conduct all these land transactions on behalf of the Postmaster-General. I should like to have a little light thrown on that arrangement, because there have been cases where Government Departments have been competing in the market for the same land. Clause 4 provides that the Postmaster-General, or any person acting on his behalf, may at all reasonable times in the day time, after giving 24 hours' notice, enter any of the lands for the purpose of surveying or valuing the lands. I do not think a 24 hours' notice is long enough. But that is a minor point compared with the question as to the arrangement which the Post Office and other Departments have under which the Office of Works undertakes all the purchases of land. Is it a statutory or an administrative arrangement; and if it is an administrative arrangement, what guarantee has this House that it will always be adhered to? If it is not a statutory arrangement, it would be a good thing if it was so made.
  Viscount WOLMER: The answer to the first point of the hon. and gallant Member is that this is the common form, and it merely gives the Post Office power to enter on the premises in order to survey them for plans. If the Post Office is to acquire premises compulsorily, and have

  1903
  to make our plans in regard to the buildings we are going to erect upon them, it would not be reasonable that the occupants should be able to restrain our architects from taking measurements. These powers have always been conferred end have never been abused in any single case. In reply to his second point, the guarantee is that the vigilance of hon. Members like the hon. and gallant Member himself, will ensure that all Government Departments carry out their affairs in a business-like manner.
  Clauses 5 (Power to erect buildings and form roads), 6 (Power to make agreements with local authorities), 7 (Correction of errors in deposited plans or books of reference), 8 (Stopping up passageways and extinction, of rights of laying pipes, etc.), 9 (As to taking parts of certain properties), 10 (Land tax), 11 (Power to erect buildings on land at Leicester), and 12 (Short title and interpretation), ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Passageways in the City of London which may be stopped up by the Postmaster-General.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the First Schedule to the Bill."
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: I should like to know something about the stopping of these passageways. Lovers of old London may like to know that the old passageway from Houndsditch to Phil's Buildings is to be stopped. The hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) if he was in the House now would be interested to learn that so much of the passageway known as Borer's Passage, as would lie on the south-west side of a straight line drawn from the north-east corner of No. 1, Borer's Passage to the north-west corner of No. 2, Borer's Passage, is to be stopped, and members of the Committee might like to take a last walk along these old bits of London. I should like to know whether any objections have been taken by any persons who are interested in these passageways.
  Viscount WOLMER: The Select Committee very carefully examined this point, and found that there is no objection in any quarter. These passages, as a matter
  1904
  of fact, are part of a very dilapidated slum, and the amenities of London will be improved by the building we propose to erect upon them.
  First Schedule agreed to.
  Second Schedule—(Properties of which portions may be taken by the Postmaster-General), agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE BILL.
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Amendment of 22 and 23 Vict., c. 40.)
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain FitzRoy): I have been handed some manuscript Amendments. It is rather irregular to hand in Amendments at the last moment without giving notice. The first two Amendments are out of order, because they would impose a charge. The third Amendment is in order. Mr. Stephen.
  Mr. STEPHEN: On a point of Order. I was not aware that this business was to be taken to-night, and consequently I did not put in my Amendments earlier. I did not know that a Motion had been put down for the suspension of the Eleven O'clock Rule. With regard to the first Amendment, I submit that it does not impose a charge.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Clause puts a limitation on the amount of the charge and the hon. Member proposes to remove it. In effect, the Amendment would obviously impose a charge over and above what is mentioned in the Bill. The second Amendment would have the same effect. I call upon the hon. Member to move his third Amendment.
  Mr. STEPHEN: In regard to the second Amendment., I would submit that it is not imposing a new charge upon the Treasury, but simply retaining the charge that there is now.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The Bill repeals a certain charge that is at present imposed. The hon. Member suggests putting it back again, which would obviously increase the charge. I call upon the hon. Member to move his third Amendment.
  Mr. STEPHEN: I beg to move, in page 2, line 4, to leave out Sub-section (3).
  The Sub-section states:
  "In section three of the principal Act, for the words twenty-eight days' there shall be substituted the words ninety-two days' as the maximum period of instruction, training and exercise in any one year."
  Under the Act of 1859; by which the Reserve was set up, certain conditions were laid down for those entering the Reserve. This Bill proposes to make the position of members of the Reserve less favourable than it has been in the past. It imposes a reduction of pay and more onerous conditions of service. They may be called up for 92 days' training instead of 28. That proposal requires a great deal of explanation, and the Minister has a "hefty" task before him, if he is going to persuade the House to reduce the pay of the Reserve and increase the period of training. What is the purpose of the proposal? We have just had a Debate, in which the need for disarmament has been spoken of on all sides. We are now proposing to extend the period of training to which these people may have to submit at any time without the consent of Parliament. Under Section 4 of the Act of 1859 an order may be made without the consent of Parliament, if Parliament is not sitting. The position should be allowed to remain as it is. If the period of 28 days' training is not regarded as sufficient under modern conditions, it is the business of the Government to draw up a new scheme which will give these men a proper understanding of where they are, instead of fiddling about in this way with an old Act of 1859. I hope as a result of the raising of the matter in the House, the reservists will be informed as to their position and the meaning of the conditions imposed on them.
  Mr. HARDIE: I beg to second the Amendment. I should like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty looks upon the 28 days' training as a sort of holiday which he is trying to extend. What is the point of view of the Admiralty, and why do they, in this matter, distinguish between one section and another? There must be a reason for departing from the 28 days arrangement. Is it because of health considerations and because these men come from overcrowded slum areas or badly ventilated
  1906
  workshops? Or is it because the Admiralty regard war as being nearer than most people think? If you want to make a start in letting loose the hounds of war, one way of doing so is to—
  Sir COOPER RAWSON: The dogs of war.
  Mr. HARDIE: No, the hounds of war—"the hounds of hell hunting over the rocks of damnation." I am sorry to have to correct the quotations of the hon. Gentleman opposite, who belongs to a country to which I do not belong. Are we to understand from the increase in the number of these days that it is necessary in order to make the men more fit in training? Is it meant that you find their physical condition is such that you must increase the time to enable them to carry out the drill, or is malnutrition so rampant among these recruits that you have to extend the days to bring them up to the strength of carrying what they have to carry on their drill? When you extend the days in this way, you are also, I presume, extending the expense. What is the amount that is going to be involved as an extra?
  Mr. ERNEST BROWN: I do not agree with the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) when he spoke about malnutrition. This Bill will affect one of the finest bodies of men in the British Isles, who do not generally live in great cities like Glasgow, but are mostly found round small fishing villages and towns on the coast, and I take it that this Clause is to increase their period of training, in which case I dare say many of them will be glad to see it, because unemployment is rampant in the fishing industry, and the closing of the Russian market has made a great deal of difference on the East Coast. I could not see my way to vote against this Clause, but I think this body of men are entitled to an explanation from the Minister as to what the Clause means.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I represent, I should think, as large a body of Naval Reserve men as any hon. Member in this House, and I should like to point out to the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) and to supplement the remarks of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown), that there is no such thing as malnutrition, at any rate, among the Grimsby Naval Reserve men. We know

  1907
  how to feed our men, and they do not go up for training either to have a holiday or to get fed. I should Iike to express the hope to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty that he will deal fully with the point raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) as to the question of reduced pay. When this Bill was before the House on Second Reading, it was fully discussed, and we were assured, to the best of my recollection, that this extension of the period of 28 days was only in the case of certain engine-room ratings who had to have special technical instruction. As far as the ordinary seamen, skippers and mates were concerned, they were to be called up for 28 days as before, there was to be no alteration as regards them. It was on that assurance that I and other Members interested voted for the Second Reading. We did not hear anything at that time as to any reduction of pay, and if there is to be a reduction of pay for these men I cannot vote for the Third Reading, because, speaking from my own knowledge, they certainly deserve every penny they get. If there is to be a change they ought to have an increase rather than a decrease.
  Commander WILLIAMS: With regard to the raising of the period from 28 days to 92 days, we were assured in the Committee that this referred only to a certain selected class, a very highly-trained class, of skilled engineers. That assurance we naturally accept, but at the same time I think it is a pity it could not have been made clearer in the Bill that it was intended to affect only one particular section, because it is going to be a handicap in getting reserves if a maximum of 92 days' service is provided for. A man who is in regular employment may be able to get away for the shorter period, but could not possibly obtain leave for the longer period. The man may be quite competent, quite skilled and merely want a technical training at sea under discipline. I would like to make it quite clear that many of us view this particular Sub-section as a little distant. We fully accept the assurance which was given to us by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but we would like him to go a little farther than he went on the last occasion, and tell us exactly what it does, because in affecting naval reserves it affects the
  1908
  most important part of the reserves of the Navy, a part which in the past has proved to be of immense value.
  Mr. R. RICHARDSON: The hon. and gallant Member for Torquay (Commander Williams) has practically covered the points that I was proposing to put to the House. The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Brown) can see only one side to this question, but there is another side. Many of these men, by dint of hard work, have raised themselves into good positions, and their chances of getting still better positions will be prejudiced if they are to be liable to serve 92 days. Employers will not be ready to engage a man with that liability attaching to him if they can secure another man. The hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) claimed to represent more of these men than any other hon. Member. I do not know that I represent very many, but I do represent some, and I am told they feel they will be prejudiced by this provision.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): I feel that the hon. Member who brought forward this Amendment at the last possible moment would have saved himself a good deal of trouble and us a considerable amount of time had he taken a little more interest in this Bill in its earlier stages, because it is perfectly new to me to be told that there is the slightest intention of reducing the pay of these particular men. Such a proposal does not come into the purview of the Bill.
  Mr. STEPHEN: What about Sub-section (2)?
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: Sub-section (2) only refers to the bounty. It is merely an alteration in the terms of the bounty in certain eventualities.
  Mr. STEPHEN: A reduction.
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: It might be a reduction or it might not, but it most certainly does not affect the pay of the men in any respect whatsoever. I make that statement to the House, and I hope it will satisfy the hon. Member. With regard to the actual number of days' training laid down, as I said on the Second Reading, the Bill merely nuts into legal form the existing practice. The number of days' service laid down

  1909
  is already in existence, and there have been no complaints. The Admiralty think it is necessary to introduce this legislation in order to legalise the existing practice. I repeat that there is no intention whatever of extending the length of training except for certain classes of men, such as Acting Engine Room Artificers who cannot possibly learn their duties properly in 28 days. It is not our intention that this Bill should be considered as a preparation for war, and I cannot understand why such an absurd suggestion should have been made. This Measure merely provides that the men who are being trained as volunteers for the Navy shall have sufficient time to learn their duties. There has been no difficulty, so far as I know, in getting recruits, and I am satisfied that if the Bill passes, it can only do good, and cannot possibly do any harm to a single individual.
  Mr. AMMON: The hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) referred to the difficulty involved in the administration of Sub-section (2).
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We are now discussing an Amendment to leave out Sub-section (3).
  Mr. AMMON: I was going to refer to a possible reduction in the remuneration of these men.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I know that subject was mentioned by the hon. Member for Camlachie, but it was out of order.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We have been told that the intention of this Bill is merely to legalise the existing practice. The inference from that is that for a long period it has been the custom to train these men for a certain number of days in an illegal manner, and now the Admiralty consider it to be wise to legalise that particular number of days. I wonder how long it will be before the Admiralty will decide again to increase the number of days. They have doubled the number of days' training in the past without legal authority, and there is no earthly reason why they should not double the number of days in the future. I should like to know if there is the slightest intention of a further extension of the number of days. It may be true that no complaints
  1910
  have been received officially, but unofficially there have been many complaints against the number of days which the Reserves are called upon to serve. I travelled in the train not many weeks ago with a man who had completed his period of service. He had been at home just a month, when he was called back to serve again. The man had to travel from Liverpool to Devonshire, and consequently his hopes will be destroyed by a long time. The Noble Lord seems to regard this as a rather humorous incident. It may be humorous to a person like himself who has never had to work for his living, but it is not humorous to one who has to work for his livelihood. It is a very serious matter to a man to be called away from his work after finding suitable work. Is it the intention of the Admiralty at any future date to further extend the number of days that reserve men are likely to be called upon to serve?
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: No, it is not the intention to extend the period any further. Possibly the gentleman with whom the hon. Member travelled for so long a distance was a new recruit. It was probably his first year, and the first year is always a rather longer period for everybody. They all serve more in the first year. The hon. Member need be under no fear that we would propose a further extension of the period.
  Mr. HARDIE: As you said these men were all efficient as engineers, how is it that you propose to extend the number of days for them?
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I did not say that. I said that the longer period of training was needed to make them efficient.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  Mr. STEPHEN: I claim a Division upon this Amendment.
  The House proceeded to a Division.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker stated that he thought the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared the Ayes had it, eleven Members only who challenged his decision having stood up.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  Mr. STEPHEN: I am very much disappointed at the position taken up by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in charge of this Bill to-night. I am very sorry he thought I treated him with discourtesy or lack of care in not putting down my Amendments earlier, but I thought I explained that I did not know that the Eleven o'Clock Rule was to be suspended, and he considered it a very small Measure. I consider it a very important Measure, and I certainly do not intend to let the Third Reading go without making some points. In the first place, I want to say that I think it is a very mean, pettifogging business that the Admiralty, in dealing with these men, have put in this £5 limit as to the amount of money that should be paid. I have been long enough in this House to find that the Admiralty, when they have been asked to treat, possibly, the widow of a sailor in a generous fashion, plead that they have not the power under the Statutes and Regulations, and I do not see why these men, who have been referred to as such a fine body of men, should have this £5 limit put upon what the Admiralty may give them for their services. I think it is a great shame that men in this position, who may be called upon to serve in the defence of their country, should be dealt with in this mean, pettifogging way.
  12.0 m.
  I want also to say a word with regard to Sub-section (2) of Clause 1. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has repeated that there is no reduction in the wages of these men. It is quite true that, while these men are in training for 28 days, Sub-section (2) of Clause 1 will not affect them but if we have another great war, and if the war extends to more than three years—and to my mind these two hypothesis are not altogether unlikely, with the present people in control of the government of the country—those men may be called upon to serve for more than three years, and, when they are so called upon, this Sub-section does certainly mean a reduction in the rate of pay that they will obtain. I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman can question that the position is as I have stated it, and that in such an event their pay would be reduced owing to the repeat of these words in the Act of 1859. It
  1912
  may seem a small thing for hon. Members of this House to put these men into this position. I noticed that there was a disposition to treat as a matter of no importance the Amendment that was moved. We have had an assurance from the Minister that only a very small section will be affected by it, but you are putting the whole of the Naval Reserve into this position, and though the hon. Gentleman may say it is only going to be applied to this small section, the statutory power is here being given to the Government to apply it to every member of the Reserve. While this Government may say they are not going to apply it without any more legislation, a future Government may have all these men undergoing a training service of 92 days.
  I should like to ask if the Bill is going to be retrospective in its action. We are told this is simply legalising a practice that takes place at present, but I should like the hon. and gallant Gentleman to tell us more about this practice. Unless there is a statute, I take it men cannot be compelled to give 92 days' service and I should like to ask if that is the case. If the Bill passes, are the men now in the Naval Reserve to have the option of leaving it if they do not wish to under this new statutory obligation? It is intolerable at this late hour of the night that we should allow a thing like this to pass without being perfectly clear with regard to the rights of the men. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman's answer is satisfactory, I may not think it necessary to divide the House, but, if it is unsatisfactory, I shall divide against the Third Reading.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I have had quite a number of letters from Naval Reservists in my constituency who are very anxious to have an explanation as to what Clause 1 (1) means. It says that if a man is brought up for actual service he shall, if medically fit, he entitled to receive such sum, not exceeding £5 as the Admiralty may appoint, unless he was liable to be called into actual service in pursuance of that Order at the time of his enlistment. It is on the latter portion that I want an explanation, as to what type of man that really applies to.
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I will give an answer to my hon. Friend's question

  1913
  first. It is a very simple point. The last two lines in the Sub-section which my hon. Friend quotes, refer to men who enter the Reserve after mobilisation as opposed to men who enter before mobilisation. If men join the Reserve after mobilisation, they are not entitled to the bounty. It only applies to men who actually belong to the Reserve on mobilisation. I do not know whether I have made it clear to my hon. Friend. With regard to the other matters raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), I think he is again labouring under a delusion in regard to this question of finance. In the first place, this Bill gives a bounty to a class of Reservists who never received it before. In that respect it is a great deal better than the present practice. It is only a matter of calculation. I would not pit my mathematical ability against that of the hon. Member opposite, but it strikes me that in nine cases out of ten the Reservist would have a distinct advantage
  by getting this bounty of £5 on mobilisation rather than waiting for three years before he drew twopence a day. From the views that have been expressed this afternoon, it looks as if the next war would be shorter than the last, and they might not get their twopence a day at all. Finally, with regard to the question as to the position of men in the Reserve. They are all engaged under the existing Regulations, which extend back to 1921. These Regulations bind them for terms of five years. They must do the training laid down in the Regulations which I have already mentioned. After the five years are over they need not re-engage. I do not expect the men will view their position in quite so lugubrious a light as the hon. Member opposite.
  Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  The House divided: Ayes, 129; Noes, 14.

  Division No. 258.]

  AYES.

  [12. 10 a.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Raine, Sir Walter

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Ramsden, E.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Rawson, Sir Cooper

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

  Remer, J. R.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Headlam, Lieut-Colonel C. M.

  Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

  Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Sandeman, N. Stewart

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Sandon, Lord

  Braithwaite, Major A. N.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Huntingfield, Lord

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Jacob, A. E.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Buchan, John

  King, Commodore Henry Douglas

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Stuart, Crichton-,Lord C.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Styles, Captain H. Walter

  Christie, J. A.

  Loder, J. de V.

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Long, Major Eric

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Cope, Major William

  Lumley, L. R.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  MacAndrew Major Charles Glen

  Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

  Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Craig, Sir Ernest(Chester, Crewe)

  Macintyre, Ian

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Crawford, H. E.

  McLean, Major A.

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Wells, S. R.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Williams. Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut. -Colonel George

  Foxcroft, Captain C, T.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Womersley, W. J.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Neville, Sir Reginald J.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Wragg, Herbert

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (Norwich)

  Grace, John

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  NOES.

  Batey, Joseph

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Whiteley, W.

  Garro-Jones M. Captain G. M.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Potts, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayes, John Henry

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Mr. Stephen and Mr. Kirkwood.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of The Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the South Suburban Gas Company, which was presented on the 17th June and published, be approved."—[Sir B. Chadwick.]

  FELTWELL FUEL ALLOTMENT BILL.
  Order for Committee read.
  HON. MEMBERS: "Object!"
  Lieut.-Colonel SPENDER-CLAY: May I appeal to hon. Members to withdraw
  1916
  their objections and allow the Bill to proceed? It is a non-contentious Measure. Its purpose is to help poor people in the district.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: We will agree. Perhaps when we want something hon. Members opposite will support us.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, withaut Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-two Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.

  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORA- TION (COLONIES).
  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORA- TION (COLONIES).
INDIA.
  "FORWARD" (PROHIBITION, BURMA).
  "FORWARD" (PROHIBITION, BURMA).
  HOWRAH BRIDGE.
  HOWRAH BRIDGE.
  PAPER-PULP MANUFACTURE.
  PAPER-PULP MANUFACTURE.
  OPIUM CONVENTION.
  OPIUM CONVENTION.
  CHINA (TIENTSIN).
  CHINA (TIENTSIN).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (NORTHUMBER- LAND AND DURHAM).
  UNEMPLOYMENT (NORTHUMBER- LAND AND DURHAM).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY NORTHUMBERLAND AND DURHAM).
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY NORTHUMBERLAND AND DURHAM).
  POST OFFICE, BIRMINGHAM (ACCOMMODATION).
  POST OFFICE, BIRMINGHAM (ACCOMMODATION).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (MRS. E. PATMORE).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (MRS. E. PATMORE).
  POOR LAW RELIEF, NORTHUM- BERLAND AND DURHAM.
  POOR LAW RELIEF, NORTHUM- BERLAND AND DURHAM.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  MOTOR VESSELS (BRITISH CONSTRUCTION).
  MOTOR VESSELS (BRITISH CONSTRUCTION).
  EXPORTS AND IMPORTS, HULL.
  EXPORTS AND IMPORTS, HULL.
  ANCIENT FARMHOUSE, SMARDEN (PRESERVATION).
  ANCIENT FARMHOUSE, SMARDEN (PRESERVATION).
  TURKEY (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  TURKEY (BRITISH CLAIMS).
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  INLAND REVENUE (TYPISTS).
  INLAND REVENUE (TYPISTS).
  BRITISH ARMY (REMOUNT SERVICE).
  BRITISH ARMY (REMOUNT SERVICE).
  AGRICULTURE (NORTHUMBERLAND AND DURHAM).
  AGRICULTURE (NORTHUMBERLAND AND DURHAM).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
PEERAGES IN ABEYANCE.

  MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
  His Majesty's reply to the Address of Thursday last reported by the Earl of Shaftesbury as follows:—
  "I have received your Address submitting certain recommendations with a view to some limitation being placed on claims to Peerages in abeyance. I will comply with your advice and will issue directions in accordance therewith."

SMALL AND COTTAGE HOLDINGS REGULATIONS.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, it will be within your recollection that a short time ago I raised the question of certain Regulations that were laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House not being available to Peers, because there was only one copy of the Regulations and that was upon the Table. I pointed out then that fourteen days had already elapsed and there were only seven days in which the Regulations could be dealt with before they would come into force, and that in these circumstances there was no proper opportunity for dealing with them. The noble Marquess the Leader of the House informed me that he would look into the question himself and make some statement later on. I therefore desire to ask him now whether he has any statement to make in regard to the matter.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for mentioning this matter. In accordance with my promise I have taken a great deal of trouble about it. I think it is very important that the right of your Lordships to object to Regulations which have been laid on the Table should be safeguarded. The facts are very much as the noble Lord has stated them. These particular Regulations were only laid in manuscript
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and there were no copies available to Peers who wanted to have them. That, I think—and your Lordships will think—was not a real compliance with the Statute. I believe it was done by inadvertence. No attention having been called on previous occasions to these Regulations, the practice had slipped into an irregular one, but I am able to assure the House that it shall never occur again. The Department desire me to express their apologies to your Lordships that it has occurred and to say that in future printed copies will be available for Peers the moment the Paper is laid.
There remains to deal with this particular case. There are now printed copies available, but, as the noble Lord has very properly said, the time has largely expired during which these Regulations have to be laid before they become law. In those circumstances I have to consider what can be done. I hope your Lordships will not insist upon the Papers being relaid, because if that occurs, and if the time were to begin to run again, it might be that we should not be able to conclude the business before the Recess and that would throw the whole thing over till the autumn. But I am able to give this assurance to the noble Lord, that if he moves—I hope he will not—that your Lordships should not agree with the Regulations, no technical point will be taken; so far as the Department are concerned they will treat it exactly as if the objection had been taken during the currency of the time. I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied that I have done all in my power to put the matter right.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, may I say that I have heard with complete satisfaction what has been done in this matter.

LAND TAX COMMISSIONERS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO- VISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMA- TION (No. 12) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ALIENS RESTRICTION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Desborough.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF KINTORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
S. 1. of 9 & 10 Geo. 5 c. 92. to be permanent.
1. So much of Section one of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, or any Act extending the duration of that section, as limits the duration of that section shall cease to have effect; and, accordingly, the enactments mentioned in the Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule.
LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert "Section one of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, shall be continued in force for a period of two years from the date of the passing of this Act, and." The noble and learned Lord said: The intention and what would be the result of my Amendment is to limit the permanency of this Bill to a period of two years. I selected the period of two years because I think it met, and adequately met, any possible complaint as regards time which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Desborough, on the occasion of the Second Reading. Your Lordships are aware that the Second Reading of this Bill took place some time ago—rather more than two months ago—and therefore I think it necessary to say a word or two in general explanation in order that your Lordships may appreciate what my Amendment really means. Your Lordships know that in 1914—I am only going to give those dates in history which are necessary—an Emergency Bill was passed with everyone's assent. It was said to be a Bill suitable for a time of war or of imminent national danger or of great emergency. No one questions the necessity of a Bill of the kind at such a time.
Then, in 1919, what I may call the special emergency conditions were taken out of the Act, but it was provided that the Act itself could only remain in force
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for one year. I do not care to discuss antiquarian matters of former opinions. I think everyone ought to be able to change his opinions when conditions change. But the opinion of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, were quoted last time by Lord Phillimore, and their opinion at any rate at that moment—I do not care, and I think it would be unjust, to go beyond that—was that the Act should be temporary in its character, and not permanent. As a matter of fact the Act was to endure for one year. Then, from time to time under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, it has been re-enacted for the last eight years or so, and now it is proposed to make it permanent. I noticed that when the noble Lord, Lord Desborough, was dealing with this matter, he seemed to think it was more or less a small matter of official routine. That was what I gathered from his speech and I read it again the other day to make sure that I was accurate. Whether that is so or not, however, this Bill really raises a question of very important principle and in considering it we cannot put that out of sight. That is one of the main reasons why I am asking your Lordships not to make it permanent, but to re-enact it for two years only. Then, when the time comes, all the difficulties which were suggested can be considered anti it can be determined whether the Act shall be retained or not.
There are two classes of Regulations—I am taking the last issue of the Regulations, in 1920—to which I should take exception if they were to be of a permanent character. The first class refers to the immigration of aliens. There is not what is called the right of asylum in this country—we are all agreed about that if by right of asylum you mean legal right of asylum—but as a matter of fact, for a great number of years right of asylum has been customarily allowed and encouraged, both from a general point of view and also as regards religious and racial persecution. I need not go into that because my noble friend Lord Gainford—I do not think he is here this evening—in his speech on the last occasion quoted a passage from Magna Charta, which was of importance not only as indicating the view held in 1215 but the view which has been followed consistently

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ever since, with very few variations, if any at all. A more important matter, which was pointed out by Lord Phillimore, is the question of deportation. I want to be very certain how this matter stands. I am not now referring to what are called undesirable aliens. If you want—perhaps I should not agree to it—to enlarge the definition of "undesirable alien" there is plenty of time to do anything of that kind during the two years for which I think the Bill might be re-enacted.
I should take up far too much of your Lordships' time if I tried to state the number of times this matter has been brought to my notice as regards the evil of deportation, the hardship of deportation, the harshness of it and also the unfairness of men of really unblemished character who have been carrying on their businesses here for a very large number of years being subjected to the constant possibility of deportation under the conditions of the Regulations. Under the Regulations it is provided that the Home Secretary for the time being shall have full discretionary power. There has been a series of cases in which it has been attempted to get the Courts to intervene, as they would do under conditions of habeas corpus and conditions of that kind, but it has always been held—and I think rightly as the Act now stands—that this is an absolute discretionary power in the hands of the Executive which no one and no Court has any right either to question or to interfere with. It is exactly that sort of power which, if we look back at the history of the gradual evolution of what we call our rights and liberties, we have consistently refused to give to any executive officer in this country, and quite rightly, because it embodies a right of the executive power to which we have always been opposed.
I should like in one or two sentences to ask your Lordships to consider what this means. A man may be condemned to what is often social ostracism, to being turned out of his home or business, without any right of being heard at all. That is contrary to the whole spirit of our Common Law. He can be turned out without knowing who has made the accusation, or what its nature is. That is inequitable by every test that we can apply, and it is particularly bad at a time when we know that, although the War
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has ended, the spy system has not yet come to an end. He is not allowed to be heard and he has no right to call any evidence from friends who might vouch for him. Having been condemned in that way, he is imprisoned right off and deported, perhaps to some country of which he may be nominally a national, but in which he has never lived and of which he does not adequately know the language. This effects a very serious break up of family life in which many British men, women and children are immediately implicated. Can that sort of procedure be really justified when all question of emergency has passed away? It was never known in the past, and is quite novel. I will not repeat the remarks of my noble and learned friend Lord Haldane on that point. If we look back through our history at the international intercourse and international trade that have been of enormous benefit to us, both on the scientific side and practically, as in the introduction of weaving and matters of that kind, we see the importance of encouraging international intercourse and its effect on trade conditions.
What is the right principle to apply? What is the principle of the Common Law? I am glad to see that the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, is here. I wish to refer to a well-known decision that he gave when a full Court of Appeal was brought together to consider this matter. I refer to the Freudenberg case. I should like everyone to read that decision. It pointed out perfectly accurately that the principle that has always been followed, apart from special provisions or regulations of this kind, in regard to an alien against whom nothing can be said in the sense that he is doing any harm or is undesirable, is that exactly the same civil rights are enjoyed by him as by any other British subject in this country. He has the right to be used in the same way. He is considered to be here by our invitation, and he is entitled not to be condemned without being heard, to know the nature of the accusation made against him and to be brought face to face with his accusers. If there is any doubt whether the proper Common Law procedure has been adopted, he has the fundamental safeguard of habeas corpus, which goes to the foundation of our right to a decision at law as against a mere executive or administrative decision.
In those circumstances, surely it is sufficient that you should have two years, if necessary, before proceeding further. It is not only individual instances that matter, though they are often very harsh indeed. I should like to recall for a moment what one so often heard at Geneva, that this treatment of aliens does not further the international spirit which is really essential for the re-erection of our trade interests and industrial organisation. In the Economic Conference at Geneva, under the Chairmanship of M. Theusis, who was Belgian Prime Minister during the War, nothing has been so much brought to the front as the fact that, if you want international peace, you must get rid of these sources of international friction and disturbance, which do no good to anybody. If there is a real reason for this action, that is a different matter; but I am taking the case of an alien against whom nothing can be said. There is one instance that will probably be known to my noble friend Lord Desborough, and I do not wish to go into it in detail. I refer to the case of Dr. Oscar Levy, which was very much discussed. I have a letter before me on this point, but I do not think it necessary to read it now. I merely give the case as an illustration. Here was a man of the highest scientific acquirements, one who held a position which everyone recognised and who happened to be a particular friend of Lord Roberts. He does not know to this day what the accusation was on which he was condemned unheard, and he has never had a chance of seeing what his accusers said against him. Such eases as this are terribly hard. It is not only a question of poor governesses, to whom Lord Newton referred, although they are included with the others and suffer a great deal by ostracism of this kind.
I have only one more word to say. There are other Amendments upon the Paper, one in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillimore, and the other in that of the noble Lord, Lord Rothschild. In my view neither of those Amendments is in any way inconsistent with that which I am moving, and when the time comes I shall certainly support them with my vote, though I shall not trouble your Lordships by speaking again. Lord Phillimore deals particularly with the hardships of deportation,
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and Lord Rothschild with the hardships of depriving a man of particular religious views or racial idiosyncrasies of the asylum that was to be found here in old days, and was always regarded as expressing to the world the power of liberty and free action enjoyed in this country. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 6, at the beginning insert ("Section one of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, shall be continued in force for a period of two years from the date of the passing of this Act, and").—(Lord Parmoor.)
LORD DESBOROUGH: In rising to oppose this Amendment, it is no part of my duty to embark upon another Second Reading speech. I have already dealt with some of the topics raised by my noble friend opposite, but I am sure that his Amendment cuts right across the decision that your Lordships arrived at when this Bill came before the House for Second Reading. You then decided, by a majority of 58 to 20, that this provision should be made permanent; and, indeed, the whole object of the Bill is to make permanent the system that has been extraordinarily successful during the seven years in which it has been in operation. There have been very few complaints, and the position of the Government is that they believe that the time has now arrived when, instead of reviewing these provisions from year to year, they should make them permanent, as they have been adapted to the peace conditions that happily prevail and have been very successful. Certainly the Government would not come before Parliament for a renewal for two years of a law which they could renew (and have renewed during the past year) for one year, and it seems to me that the Amendment of my noble friend is absolutely contrary to what was adopted by your Lordships when the Bill came up for Second Reading. As to the right of asylum, on which the noble Lord opposite touched during a good part of his speech, there is no such right.
LORD PARMOOR: That is what I said.
LORD DESBOROUGH: Therefore I am repeating what has been said by my noble friend, but I rather gathered from what Lord Haldane said on the Second Reading that there was some idea that

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there was a right of asylum in this country for people from other countries. Each country has sovereign rights of its own and can either withhold or grant these rights to the subjects of foreign countries. There is nothing new in the law of our country in that respect. What the Government are afraid of, and what they know from personal knowledge, is that there are at the present time hundreds of thousands of people living in less ordered countries than our own, who are anxious to come in and receive those benefits which a stable Government gives and which they do not enjoy in their own country.
It is very difficult to distinguish between two classes of undesirable immigrants—namely, those who are undesirable either from disease or indigence and those who are undesirable from their numbers and who, if they came here, would compete very unfairly in industries which are already over-stocked. At the present time we have a very dense population in this country. I think I have already said on a previous occasion that there are 483 persons to the square mile. There are over 1,000,000 persons unemployed. We have very great housing difficulties and very high taxation, and at the present time it is the firm belief of the Government that it would be a misfortune to this country if the doors were thrown open wide enough to admit all those people in my noble friend's category, against whom there is nothing of a personal character to be urged, but who would come into this country and compete with those who are here already in over-stocked markets, and for whom there are no houses.
It is true that this Bill would give the Home Secretary powers of discrimination. It would give him powers to admit or powers to refuse immigration to this country, but I must say that those powers have already been exercised with the most scrupulous care and that hitherto there have been very few complaints. At the ports there are immigration authorities. If immigrants desire to land here and take up business in this country, their cases are immediately referred to the Ministry of Labour and afterwards are finally adjudicated upon by the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary is perfectly willing to accept this responsibility, which he acknowledges is a very great one. At the same time, he is willing
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and desirous that in any particular case your Lordships or anybody else should bring the facts to his cognisance. He takes a personal interest in the matter. It is his one desire to see that no harm is done to the proposed immigrants, or to this country, through the exclusion of any one whose presence here would be useful and would be good for the country. The safeguard that one has in this matter is that these difficult, onerous and very responsible duties are carried out by a responsible Minister of the Crown, whose actions can always be brought before Parliament, and who courts every inquiry, and who is always willing, as are those who work under him, to give every possible relaxation in those cases where a relaxation of the rules is proved to be necessary.
There were two cases to which the noble Lord who spoke just now has alluded. One was a case brought up by Lord Phillimore, and I hope that the Home Office have met that case satisfactorily.
LORD PHILLIMORE: Quite satisfactorily.
LORD DESBOROUGH: Another case was that brought forward by my noble friend Lord Haldane. I do not think that that case was quite so satisfactory. It was a case in which a certain restaurant proprietor in this country had employed the services, as commercial assistant, of a young lady who had come here, I think, from Germany, although the country does not matter. In that case also the Ministry of Labour made careful inquiry. This person had landed under the excuse that she was going to learn English in this country. She was given a temporary permit, after which she obtained occupation with this particular gentleman, and the case was brought before the Ministry of Labour. I think in that case they decided that she was not qualified, and also that this particular restaurant keeper had not made sufficient inquiry as to whether he could get commercial assistance from those already in this country; that is to say, either from resident English people or from among the aliens already here. Also, apparently, he was not paying the rate of wages which was current for

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that employment. Therefore, in that case this particular lady was not allowed to remain.
With regard to the general question, the Government are emphatically of the opinion that, those Regulations having been tried for seven years and having been found to work with, I think, on the whole, most admirable smoothness, and having regard to the conditions under which we now labour (which in their opinion are not very likely to be improved within the space of two years, or for a very much longer time), they should come to Parliament and ask Parliament to make those Regulations, which have now to be renewed from year to year, of a permanent character. I do not know that I need go much more into the merits of the subject. I hope I have said sufficient to show that this Amendment does really cut at the whole root of the matter, and is absolutely contrary to the decision at which your Lordships arrived by a large majority. I, therefore, must ask the House to reject the Amendment.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: We have a good deal of business before the House, and perhaps it is desirable that we should keep to the point, which is as to how far it is possible to amend this particular Bill by this particular Amendment. I confess that I find myself in somewhat of a difficulty. I can quite see that two years is a very short period, and perhaps is too short, but I dislike the idea of making this a permanent measure. The noble Lord admitted that present conditions were not likely to remain permanent. He spoke of housing. We hope that before very long there will be sufficient houses in this country for the people of this country and any aliens who may come in. Again, there is the further point that the Secretary of State is a hard-worked individual, and is quite unable to go thoroughly into all these cases. We are thinking, not of the cases which have been brought forward, but of the humble and unknown man who cannot get his case put before the Secretary of State at all. Those are the cases of which we are thinking, and I for my part would like to ask the Government, when they admit that conditions in this
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country are not permanent, would it be possible, if they cannot agree to two years, to agree to some other period of time, and make the Bill last, say, for five or even for ten years? I can assure the noble Lord that any concession which he can make in that direction would be very warmly welcomed by us, and would, I think, be a very real improvement of the Bill. I do hope the Government will not meet us with an absolute refusal to take any steps at all in the matter.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I agree with what the noble Earl has said, but my difficulty goes still further. The noble Lord opposite said that his justification was the large vote given on the Second Reading in this House, and also the fact that the old temporary Act had worked well. It is easy to state it, it is very difficult to give evidence in support of it. Certainly the noble Lord gave us none. That there are undesirable aliens who ought to be kept out, and are kept out, is no doubt true, and, if he had asked for a Bill which would strengthen the hands of the Home Secretary in doing that, good and well, but that is what he has not asked for. He has asked to keep out all aliens, and the only mitigating part of his speech was his conclusion, from which I gather that the Home Secretary is willing to go into these cases and mitigate the application of the Act in instances where it is consistent with the public wellbeing to do so.
But I am anxious to support the Amendment of my noble friend for another reason. I do not think you are in a position to tell how much hardship you are going to inflict on the business world by this Bill. It may be that it is less than it now seems, but I think in some cases it would be very heavy. If you go and ask among the numerous class of people who give employment in London, they will tell you that for a great amount of work a foreigner is indispensable. He has a genius for it which we at home have not, and he has had a training for it which we at home have not. In Switzerland, waiters are trained for their work, cooks are trained, all sorts of people are trained. Take the case to which the noble Lord referred, the case I brought forward on the Second Reading, that of a well-known restaurant

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keeper in London. He has to bring in food from different parts of Europe to keep up the reputation of his business, and he has employed, because he could not get anybody so adequate, a German lady. It is nonsense to say he did not pay her a good salary; he did pay her a good salary. It is nonsense to suggest that he could easily have got somebody better; she is a lady of the highest character. But the difficulty which he could not get over was this. He wanted somebody who could correspond in at least four foreign languages with the people from whom he bought his material abroad. Unfortunately, our education in this country has not reached the stage in which we provide secretaries, male or female, who can do that work, consequently this lady, who came here originally in order to complete her education in this country, and who got a permit for the purpose and was remaining here, so far undisturbed, was employed.
LORD DESBOROUGH: It was only a temporary permit, and she did not comply with the terms of that permit.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: It is always temporary, and she only did not comply with it because she did not go away at the end of the time. Of course, she would have had to go away if it were insisted upon. The Ministry of Labour and the Home Office do not pay much attention to these things, they do not consider the difference in the state of knowledge on the Continent and here, and consequently she has to go. All I can say is that that is a principle which, if you apply it, will probably cause you a great deal of difficulty in this country. I do not say more than "probably," but I do urge that we should make this Bill at least of merely temporary application in order that we may see what hardship and suffering are caused by it. I believe there will be a good deal. I do not prophesy, because I do not know, but I am perfectly certain that neither the Ministry of Labour nor the Home Office know any better. This Bill is introduced in response to one of those popular agitations for keeping out the foreigner. Very well, you may yield, and when you yield without consideration you bring Nemesis, and it is because I do not want Nemesis to come, and see people subjected to great inconvenience, that I want to
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support any Amendment the object of which is to make the application of the measure temporary.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I have spent a good many years of my life in the City, and I cannot agree with the noble and learned Viscount that this Bill is going to do any harm to business in the City.
LORD NEWTON: Both the two noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite have delivered what were practically Second Reading speeches upon this Bill. I am not going to imitate their example, but, as far as I am concerned, I do not suppose I have been more impressed by their argument than the Government Bench is likely to be. On a former occasion I took a somewhat prominent part in opposing what I considered to be an extremely vindictive proposal in this very Bill in the year 1919. The proposal to which I refer was a clause directed against ex-enemy aliens, and it was proposed by the Government that all these people, no matter what their circumstances were, no matter how faultless their behaviour had been, should be deported from this country unless they fulfilled certain conditions which it was practically impossible to fulfil. There is nothing in my modest political career which I look back upon with so much satisfaction as my action on that occasion. With the assistance of noble Lords more influential than myself that provision was defeated, the Bill went back to the House of Commons, it was reinstated there, it came back here. We again stuck to our position, and ultimately the Commons gave way. That is the only occasion I can recollect in recent years when we have got the better of the Commons, and I honestly think that no action that we have taken during recent years has contributed so much to our recovery in the public esteem as what we did on that occasion.
But this present Bill, which is denounced by the noble and learned Viscount opposite, is a totally different measure. There is nothing whatever vindictive about it, so far as I can see. Ex-enemy aliens, for instance, do not figure in it at all. It is merely a Bill to regulate the admission, and to provide for the exclusion and deportation, of aliens. I will agree to this extent, that

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it is sometimes worked in an irritating manner. In fact, I have suffered to a certain extent from it myself. The truth is that what I may call the Bottomley spirit is not altogether dead in this country, and I am not at all sure that it does not survive to a certain extent even in this House. But what I would like to point out is what might happen in case the Government were weak enough to accept this Amendment. It is a horrible possibility to suggest, but it is conceivable that in two years or more noble Lords opposite might be in office. If the Labour Party were in power it is certainly quite plain to me, although it might not be to the noble Lords opposite, that the policy of that Party will be dictated by the extremists of the Party—namely, Mr. Cook and his friends, who have a natural and innate affection for all revolutionaries and especially for persons who are particularly antagonistic to this country.
I believe that if this Amendment were adopted and the Bill came to an end a couple of years hence, and if the Labour Party were then in office and dominated by the extreme wing of the Party, we should immediately see pressing invitations issued to Comrade Zinoviev and to Comrade Borodin and Comrade Rosengolz to come and pay this country a visit and to remain here as long as they chose, and the warmth of their reception would only be equalled by the grief which would follow in the case of their departure. This Bill may not be much of a safeguard, but it would be rather difficult to carry out a policy of this kind if it were in existence. If the Bill lapses automatically we have really no hold upon any movement of the kind I have indicated. Although nobody detests more than I do vindictive persecution of individuals, I am bound to say that the facts as stated by my noble friend Lord Desborough are facts which you cannot get over. We are, as has been pointed out, a country with one inhabitant to every acre of land and I do not suppose such a state of things exists anywhere else and we have the unemployed stabilised, so to speak, at at least a million. In these circumstances it really would be almost criminal neglect on the part of the Government if they did not take such steps to regulate the promiscuous immigration of aliens whether they are desirable or undesirable.
LORD PHILLIMORE: The noble Lord opposite protests against Second Reading speeches, but noble Lords there have made nothing but Second Reading speeches. With regard to the speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down, I wonder he does not see the defect of his own argument. If it should be the case that the Labour Party is in power the Labour Home Secretary will have all the powers which this Bill gives him, and will have the power to admit everybody undesirable and the power to reject everybody desirable. If you expect the Labour Party to be in office do not give them this power. I rise in the first instance to express my thanks to the Home Secretary for the way in which he has dealt with a particular case to which I referred him. I have no doubt the present Home Secretary, and I should think most Home Secretaries, will deal with all the matters fairly and kindly and with mercy, according to their lights, but if they get entirely false ideas of political economy they will probably deal with them wrongly.
To hear noble Lords speak of this country being over-populated and for that reason urging the exclusion of people, is to my mind quite curious. If it is overpopulated you want your people to be able to go abroad, and if your people are to go abroad, how can you expect other countries to admit them if you shut your doors in the face of those other countries? It is obvious teat what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. As I ventured to say on a previous occasion we did our best to compel the Chinese and the Japanese to receive our people, how can we in turn refuse to allow foreign countries to send their people here? Two other observations, and two only, I have to make. When I come to my own Amendment I will trouble your Lordships with a few words in respect of it. As the noble Lord who represents the Home Office said, there is no right of asylum; there is no right to any foreigner to come into this country. That has been laid down by the highest judicial authority. But when he is in the country it is another story. Nevertheless, there is no right of asylum. The benefit of asylum which has been granted in this country has been the making of this country. It is the people whom we have taken in, the refugees on religious and other grounds, who have introduced some

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of the most valuable of our industries, and I imagine that most of the noble Lords here can trace some foreign ancestry of that kind which has contributed to their present distinguished position.
Only one other observation. No doubt a Home Secretary may be a very good Home Secretary. He may do things very well, but you try all constitutional questions by the extreme case. You may have a very excellent autocrat, a very beneficent despot. I think it is extremely likely that most countries will come to that. There will be Mussolinis or dictators in probably all the Latin countries of Europe and after all, on reflection, I think there was a good deal in what Elizabeth Barrett Browning said about Napoleon III if he had not come to his power by such crooked ways. After all, it may well be that the best way of governing a country is to scrap representative Government and have an autocrat chosen by the people for the time being. But if you are not going to do that, then do not make the Home Secretary an autocrat and trust to his benevolent action.
LORD PARMOOR: I should like to say one word only in reply. I entirely agree with what my noble friend Lord Phillimore has said. We are dealing with a
thing that is bad in principle and it does not matter whether one Party or the other is in power. Possibly one Party may use it one way and another another. Let us assume that one be as just as possible, you cannot have justice in these conditions. That is the experience of the world and the experience of this country. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Desborough, said that he is against any limitation. I should prefer if I might to move my Amendment with the word "five" instead of "two." I should do that by withdrawing this Amendment and then moving it with "five" substituted for "two." If that would be convenient, I will move it in that form. With your Lordships' permission I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment in its present form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 6, at the beginning insert ("Section one of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, shall be continued in force for a period of five years from the date of the passing of this Act, and").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Whether the proposed words shall be there inserted?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 16; Not-Contents, 48.

CONTENTS.

Reading, M.

Aberconway, L.

Shandon, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Southwark, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Olivier, L.

Stanmore, L. [Teller.]

Strafford, E.

Parmoor, L. [Teller.]

Strachie, L.

Phillimore, L.

Swaythling, L.

Haldane, V.

Sandhurst, L.

Thomson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Cave, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Bertie of Thame, V.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Falkland, V.

Hastings, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. Privy Seal.)

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Hindlip, L.

Inchcape, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Sutherland, D.

Sumner, V.

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Wellington, D.

Younger of Leckie, V.

Lamington, L.

Merrivale, L.

Bath, M.

Banbury of Southam, L.

Merthyr, L.

Dufferin and Ava, M.

Carson, L.

Newton, L.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

Airlie, E.

Bradford, E.

Darling, L.

Rayleigh, L.

Denbigh, E.

Dawnay, L. (V. Downe.)

Southampton, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Desborough, L.

Templemore, L.

Midleton, E.

Dynevor, L.

Warrington of Clyffe, L.

Onslow, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Wharton, L.

Plymouth, E. [Teller.]

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

Stradbroke, E.

Gisborough, L.

Wittenham, L.

Wicklow, E.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE moved to insert at the end of the clause:—
"Provided that any Order in Council authorising the deportation of aliens other than aliens convicted of crime shall contain the condition following, that is to say, that before the order for deportation is carried out the alien be informed that he may within seven days apply to the Secretary of State for a report to be made upon his case by a Judge of the High Court of Justice, and that it such application be made the Secretary of State shall request the Lord Chief Justice of England to appoint a Judge of the King's Bench Division to inquire into the case, and the Secretary of State shall receive and consider the report before finally directing that the order for deportation shall be carried into effect."
The noble and learned Lord said: The Order made under the existing Act is the Aliens Order of 1920. Under Article 12 of that Order:—
"The Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, in any of the cases mentioned in this Article make an order (in this Order referred to as a deportation order) requiring an alien to leave and to remain thereafter out of the United Kingdom."
A deportation order may be made in any of the following cases (I can put the matter quite shortly): If any Court certifies that an alien has been convicted; if a court of summary jurisdiction finds that an alien has within three months before the date of the proceedings been in receipt of parochial relief or found wandering without ostensible means of subsistence; if he has been convicted in a foreign country for an extradition crime; and, lastly, if the Secretary of State "deems it to be conducive to the public good to make a deportation order against the alien." There is no point in the previous enumerations. If the Secretary of State thinks it conducive to the public good to make a deportation order under this Order, which is made under the powers of this Act, he can do so. That is what I ask your Lordships not to continue as the constitutional law of England for all time.
Your Lordships, in your judicial capacity, in the year 1921 confirmed that which was the law of England, but which had not yet received such high sanction—the principle of national and international law that an alien once admitted to this country by leave of the Sovereign
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or of the Executive is entitled to all the privileges for the time being of a citizen, is responsible for all the liabilities of a citizen, is under the King's allegiance for the time being, is under the King's protection and is to be treated in every respect as an ordinary citizen. By this Bill, which was passed as a temporary measure and avowedly as a temporary measure, for a time of stress, you are now asked to make it a stereotyped part of the law of England that an alien shall no longer have such rights. I wonder if anybody consulted the Foreign Office before proposing this measure. I wonder if anybody has ever thought what the Foreign Office would say. As an international lawyer I have always been brought up to believe that once a foreigner is admitted into a country he is entitled to reasonably good treatment. It may be even a casus belli if the subject of one country is not properly treated by the subject of another.
Under this Order—as I have ventured to say once already to your Lordships, you must try these cases by the extreme supposition—a man who has been twenty years in this country, who has married an English wife, who has children, who has property, who has a business or an undertaking to which his personal consent is required, may be there and then expelled by the Home Secretary, or detained in prison until it is time for him to be expelled. My proposal is simply to prevent this—I agree unlikely, but still possible—act of arbitrary executive power. I suggest that before the order for deportation is carried out in that class of case—not in the enumerated cases where the alien is obviously undesirable—the alien shall be informed:
"that he may within seven days apply to the Secretary of State for a report to be made upon his case by a Judge of the High Court of Justice …."
and may thus have his chance of his case being heard, of slander, back-chat and so on being disregarded and the truth being really investigated. I do not tie the Secretary of State to what the Judge says; I do not make the Judge a Court of Appeal from the Secretary of State; but I propose that the Judge should make his report to the Secretary of State and then leave him to do as he thinks proper. All I provide for is that, in that exceptional class of case, a man shall have the opportunity of an

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inquiry before a judicial officer before he is expelled from this country; and I venture to say to your Lordships that there is probably no civilised country in which such unchecked power as that which is given to the Secretary of State in this clause is part of the permanent law of the land. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Phillimore.)
LORD DESBOROUGH: The Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Phillimore is one of very great importance, and I hope the House will excuse me if I go into it somewhat in detail. His object is that no alien, other than those convicted of crimes, shall be deported until a Judge of the King's Bench has inquired into his case and reported to the Secretary of State. The noble and learned Lord himself pointed out just now that the Secretary of State would have the final power of deciding on his course of action. In this matter of deportation orders, the Government fully recognises that the powers at present exercisable by the Secretary of State are very wide and large. Under the existing Aliens Order, the Home Secretary may make a deportation order either, (1), on a recommendation from a criminal court after a conviction; or, (2), if the Secretary of State deems it to be conducive to the public good to make a deportation order against the alien. The responsibility rests entirely with the Secretary of State. Even in the case of aliens convicted of crime the Court only makes a recommendation and does not always do that. If a recommendation is made, it is for the Home Secretary to decide whether effect shall be given to it or not, and the Home Secretary is also empowered to make a deportation order even though there has been no conviction and no recommendation. Is that not so?
LORD PHILLIMORE: Yes.
LORD DESBOROUGH: The noble Lord proposes that in the case where there has been no conviction for crime, the alien shall have the right, before a deportation order is made, to have his case investigated by a Judge of the High Court. The proposal is one which obviously deserves careful and respectful consideration. The Government fully recognise that it has been proposed with
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the object of securing that before deportation (which may in some cases involve very severe hardship) is ordered, the case shall be fully investigated in a judicial spirit. No one will question the importance of securing that this wide power of deportation should not be exercised hastily, arbitrarily or on insufficient information. To deport a man who may have been settled in this country for a long time is a very serious step, though I think it is admitted that it rarely happens.
LORD PHILLIMORE: Hear, hear.
LORD DESBOROUGH: No one is more conscious of this difficulty than the Home Secretary, on whom this grave responsibility rests. Nevertheless the Government are fully convinced that an Amendment of this kind cannot properly be accepted. I will state their reasons. In the first place it is inconsistent with the practical working of the present system of alien control. The cases in which deportation orders are made without any conviction or recommendation of the Court against aliens who have long been settled in this country are extremely rare. The common object for which this power is used is to expel from the country an alien who has come here improperly. To take the day to day cases, an alien, for example, comes here under the pretext that he is visiting a friend or coming as a student. In a few days he is found to have taken a post as a waiter or other hotel employee.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: It may be months after.
LORD DESBOROUGH: Quite so. He is at once told to leave the country and, if he does not obey, his departure is enforced by means of a deportation order. Or again, an alien arrives here as a member of the crew of a boat or as a stowaway. He tries to get a job on shore. A deportation order can be at once made, and if possible he is sent back on the boat by which he has come. In all such cases the machinery of an appeal within seven days and an inquiry by a High Court Judge would obviously be inappropriate. The facts are plain. In many of these cases no question at all is raised as to the alien's character or history. The reason for his being sent out of the country is simply that he has come in without permission or failed to comply

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with the conditions on which he was allowed to land. The restrictions on aliens can only be enforced if it is widely recognised that any attempt at evasion recoils at once on the offender.
In a large number of cases speedy action is of great importance. For instance, the master or owner of a ship in which the alien arrived in the United Kingdom is under an obligation to remove the alien if he is found on shore, although leave has not been granted to him to land, and whenever possible an alien is sent back by the ship on which he has come. If in all these cases the alien could claim a judicial inquiry, with the result that the ship on which he had come sails away, this country has to keep the offender until another ship can be found and perhaps pay for his passage. The administrative delay and waste of money would be very serious. In all such cases as these, therefore, judicial inquiry must be rejected as unnecessary, as uneconomic and as impracticable from an administrative point of view.
It will perhaps be urged by the supporters of the Amendment that they have in mind, not such cases as those quoted, but rather the cases of persons who have been settled here for some time. Why should not a right of appeal to a High Court Judge be admitted in such cases? It will be noted that the Amendment does not in terms fetter the ultimate discretion of the Secretary of State. Under the Amendment the Secretary of State is to receive and consider the report, but he is left at liberty to accept or reject any recommendations there may be in the report as he thinks fit. This principle is undoubtedly right. The Amendment recognises that a deportation order is rightly treated by the existing law as an administrative and not a judicial act. The grounds on which such cases must in the last resort be settled are grounds of policy and not of law. The question to be answered in justifying a deportation order is whether the expulsion of the alien is "conducive to the public good." That question of policy must necessarily be left to the decision of a Minister answerable to Parliament.
The object of Lord Phillimore's Amendment, however, is that there should be a judicial inquiry as to the facts. Once the facts have been properly ascertained,
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his Amendment recognises that the decision must be left in the hands of the Secretary of State. The question, therefore, which the House has to consider is whether there is any need to establish some new machinery in order to enable the full facts of a particular case to be brought to the consideration of the Minister responsible for making the order. In the view of the Government there is no such need. No Home Secretary acts, or is likely to act, in the dark in cases of this kind. He is naturally, before coming to such a decision, anxious to have the fullest possible information about each particular case. Every opportunity is given to the alien to make representations, and whenever any of the facts are in doubt the fullest possible inquiries are made with a view to clearing up the relevant questions. Under the procedure proposed in the Amendment, a Judge of the High Court asked to inquire into such a case would be in a less favourable position than the Secretary of State for ascertaining the facts, and he would not have the advantage of day to day experience in the administration of the Aliens Order.
So far, therefore, as regards the ascertainment of facts on which the decision must be reached, the proposed Amendment would, in the view of the Government, be of no practical value. When the facts have been ascertained, then the decision is a matter of policy which must rest with the Secretary of State. As an illustration of the principle that these deportation cases must be settled on grounds of policy and not as judicial matters, and that consequently the responsibility must rest with a Minister and cannot be transferred to a Judge, consider the recent position with regard to the Russians engaged under the Trade Delegation and by the All-Russian Co-operative Society. Can it be seriously suggested that in this case when the Government had decided to break off relations with the Russian Government and to terminate the Trade Agreement, nevertheless any member of the Trade Delegation required in accordance with that decision to leave the country should be entitled to apply to have his case heard by a High Court Judge. The mere existence of such a right would obviously be fraught with the gravest inconveniences and would be inconsistent with the

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sovereign right of the State to decide to withdraw its hospitality from alien visitors. And even supposing such a right were granted, what would be the position of a Judge who had to review judicially cases which so obviously had ultimately to be decided on political and not on judicial grounds? It is almost necessary to suppose that the noble Lord who proposed the Amendment had entirely overlooked cases of this character, and I feel sure that the House with cases of this kind in mind will realise how impossible it is for the Government to accept the Amendment proposed.
LORD PHILLIMORE: The noble Lord who so pleasantly and genially conducts the business of the Home Office hardly, I think, read that long brief with which he has been supplied as if he believed in it himself. I hope he does not, but at any rate that brief is full of admissions of the point for which I am contending. I have pointed out that I do not take the responsibility from the Home Secretary, but I only provide that the Secretary of State shall be well informed as to the facts by a judicial inquiry, and then be left with the responsibility. Much of the document from which the noble Lord has read admits that that would be desirable if it were practicable. Of course it is practicable, and the small consideration of a few pounds one way or the other is nothing compared to the liberty of people who come into this country under the Government's protection. It may be that this should be limited to people residing in this country. It may be that seven days is too long. If the Government had met me on any such point I should have been only too ready to meet them, but to say that the Home Secretary is not to have the assistance of an inquiry in cases of this kind, seems to me very unwise. The last point I would urge is how much more desirable in the view of foreign Powers it would be that there should be this provision. How much more easy it would be for the Home Secretary to deal with some complaint if he were able to say that it was not merely an administrative act of the Minister but that the matter had been looked into by a Judge in a judicial manner! I cannot help thinking that you are depriving the
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Foreign Office of a very valuable weapon by refusing to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE, on behalf of Lord Rothschild, moved to add the following proviso:—
"Provided that in the case of an immigrant who proves that he is seeking admission to this country solely to avoid persecution or punishment on religious or political grounds, or for an offence of a political character, or persecution involving danger of imprisonment or danger to life and limb on account of religious belief, leave to land shall not be refused on the ground merely of want of means or the probability of his becoming a charge on the rates or failure to produce a permit from the Minister of Labour."
The noble and learned Lord said: The noble Lord, Lord Rothschild, intimated to me with great regret that he would not be able to be present to move the two Amendments standing in his name, and he requested me to do so. After the manner in which the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Parmoor, and my own Amendment have been met by the Government, with the majority they have at their backs, I am not going to trouble your Lordships with more than a few words. If this Amendment had been my Amendment I should not have put in the words "or for an offence of a political character," because I think those words give occasion to the opponent to blaspheme. However, it is not worth troubling to amend the Amendment, because I am sure it will not be accepted. As to the rest of the Amendment, I should venture humbly to support it on the ground which I have already intimated—namely, that this country has risen to its greatness, materially and morally, by giving the privilege of asylum under careful supervision, and that it is a retrograde step to give it up. I have nothing more to say, but I move the Amendment.
Amendment moved:—
Page 1, line 12, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Phillimore.)
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

COMPANIES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, your Lordships will see that there are some Amendments on the Paper. Some of them are drafting Amendments, and others are Amendments to give effect to the promises which I made on the Report stage. There is also one other Amendment—namely, an Amendment by Lord Younger of Leckie. I beg to move that the Bill be now read 3a.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 4:
Index of members of company.
4.—(1) Every company having more than fifty members shall keep an index of the names of the members of the company and shall, within fourteen days after the date on which any alteration is made in the register of the members, make any necessary alteration in the index.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after the first "shall" in subsection (1), to insert "unless the register of members is in such a form as to constitute in itself an index." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is little more than formal. The Bill provides that a company shall keep not only a register of members but also an index. The effect of the Amendment is to make it clear that a company which already keeps its register of members in alphabetical order, so as to constitute in itself an index, need not go to the unnecessary expense and labour of drawing up a separate index.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 10, after ("shall") insert ("unless the register of members is in such a form as to constitute in itself an index").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26 [Giving of professional advice not to constitute person a director of a company]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Amendments to this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 22, transpose Clause 26 to follow Clause 86.
Page 22, line 12, leave out the second ("the") and insert ("a")
Page 22, line 14, leave out ("the").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34 [Amendment of s. 89 of principal Act]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 37, leave out ("who").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36:
Form of balance sheet.
36.—(1) Every balance sheet of a company shall contain a summary of the share capital of the company, its liabilities and its assets, together with such particulars as are necessary to disclose the general nature of the liabilities and the assets of the company, and to explain how the values of the fixed assets have been arrived at.
(2) There shall be stated under separate headings in the balance sheet—
(b) if it is shown as a separate item in or is otherwise ascertainable from the books or papers of the company, the present amount of the goodwill as so shown or ascertained.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (2) (b), to leave out "or papers." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, the clause provides that the good will of a company shall be stated under a separate heading in the balance sheet where it is ascertainable from the books or papers of the company. It was thought that it was too much to expect a company to go through all its papers for many years back for this purpose and I have therefore tried to find a way out. My proposal is that we should say that the present amount of the good will should be shown in the balance sheet if it is ascertainable from the books of the company "or from any contract for the sale or purchase of any property to be acquired by the company, or from any documents in the possession of the company relating to the stamp duty payable in respect of any such contract or the conveyance of any such property." I think that is a fair compromise.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 41, leave out ("or papers").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 42, after ("company") insert ("or from any contract for the sale or purchase of any property to be acquired by the company, or from any documents in the possession of the company relating to the stamp duty payable in respect of any such contract or the conveyance of any such property").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 8, leave out ("due") and insert ("owing").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 43:
Amendment of s. 104 of principal Act.
(3) Where any debentures which have been redeemed before the date of the commencement of this Act are re-issued subsequently to that date, the re-issue of the debentures shall not prejudice any right or priority which any person would, if this section had not passed, have had under or by virtue of any mortgage or charge created between the date of the redemption of the debentures and the date of the commencement of this Act.
VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "between the date of the redemption of the debentures and," and to insert "before." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is intended to protect the priority of banks and others who may have given loans to a company before the passing of the Act. There are many of these unsatisfied now. It is only loans which are given after the passing of the Act in which the priority is protected in the Bill. I understand that the Lord Chancellor will accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, lines 25 and 26, leave out ("between the date of the redemption of the debentures and") and insert ("before").—(Viscount Younger of Leckie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 73 [Provisions as to liability of directors, etc.]:
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 19, after ("and") insert ("forthwith").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75 [Statement as to remuneration of directors to be furnished to shareholders]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to subsection (1):—
"Provided always that it shall be sufficient to state the total aggregate of all sums paid to or other emoluments received by all the directors in each year without specifying the amount received by any individual."
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this is merely a transposition.
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 4, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 73, leave out lines 12 to 15.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 78 [Companies, etc., disqualified for acting as liquidator, auditor or receiver of a company]:
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 9, leave out ("appointed so to act") and insert ("acting under an appointment made").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 86:
Restrictions on offering of shares for sale or for subscription.
86.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person to go from house to house offering shares for subscription or purchase to the public or any member of the public.
"House" in this section means "private residence."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to omit from subsection (1), the words "'House' in this section means 'private residence,'" and insert "In this subsection the expression 'house' shall not include an office used for business purposes." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is to leave out words which were inserted on the Report stage—"'House' in this section means 'private residence.'" Your Lordships will remember that this is a clause which forbids house-to-house hawking of shares, and one of your Lordships—I think Lord Halsbury—said that the clause as drafted would prevent dealers in shares going to offices for the purpose of selling shares, and that it was not desirable to interfere with that practice. I agreed and accepted his Amendment that "house"

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should mean "private residence," but on reflection I think that goes too far, because under it a hawker could go to a small shop, from small shop to house, and from house to shop again, and the whole clause might be evaded. I propose, therefore, to omit the words inserted on Report and to insert the words I have moved. I think that effects the object which my noble friend had in mind, and will interfere less with the operation of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, leave out line 38 and insert: ("In this subsection the expression 'house' shall not include an office used for business purposes").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 87:—
Saving for privileged communications.
". Where proceedings are instituted under this Act against, any person by the Director of Public Prosecutions, nothing in this Act shall be taken to require any person who has acted as solicitor for the defendant to disclose any privileged communication made to him in that capacity."
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this new clause is proposed to fulfil a promise I gave on Report.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 27, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 98 [Application to Scotland of certain provisions]:
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 25, at end insert the following new subsection:—
"(5) In the application to Scotland of subsection (9) of Section one hundred and nine of the principal Act as amended by Section forty-three of this Act, and in Section eighty-eight of this Act, references to a prosecution or to proceedings instituted by the Director of Public Prosecutions shall be construed as references to a prosecution or proceedings by or on behalf of the Lord Advocate").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Privilege Amendments agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

AUCTIONS (BIDDING AGREE- MENTS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I will trouble your Lordships for a very few minutes in inviting you to read this Bill a second time. Your Lordships have already had this Bill before you, not exactly in the form in which it is now, but doing the same thing in a slightly different way. The Bill was introduced and passed through all its stages, after having been examined by a Select Committee, which took a great deal of evidence from all manner of people. In particular, evidence was given that it was of the utmost importance to prevent people engaged in agriculture from being really deliberately swindled when they had to bring their cattle and other goods to market. The Bill was read a third time by your Lordships, but was not, proceeded with in the other House simply for want of time.
This Bill was introduced in another place at the beginning of this Session. It has gone through all its stages there, and now comes to your Lordships in the state in which I would ask your Lordships to read it a second time. It provides that if any "dealer," by which is meant a man who gets his living by dealing at auctions, offers a gift or any other consideration to any person not to bid against him at that auction, or who otherwise behaves in a way in which it is notorious that people do behave who belong to "rings" at auctions, that shall be a criminal offence. It is provided, in order that the Act—if it should become an Act—may not bear hardly upon people, that no prosecution should take place except on the fiat of the Attorney-General. I do not think I ought to detain your Lordships longer because you have considered the Bill very carefully before. Of course, if there are any matters to be considered in Committee, that can be done.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Darling.)
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, it, may be for the convenience of the House if I stated briefly and at once the position of the Home Office with regard to this Bill. When my noble friend introduced it some time ago the Home Office

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did express doubt as to whether it would achieve the objects for which it was designed, but now that this Bill is in a somewhat different form and has gone through the scrutiny of a Select Committee and also some very considerable discussion in another place, the Home Office has not the smallest hesitation in recommending it as a Bill which may possibly do much good.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MONEYLENDERS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I greatly regret that it has fallen to my lot so soon again to trouble your Lordships with a Motion for the Second Reading of a Bill. This Bill is in much the same position as the Bill which your Lordships have just agreed to read a second time. It was introduced to the House last year by my noble and learned friend Lord Carson; it was read a second time in this House and sent to a Select Committee of members of this and the other House. A great deal of evidence was given to that Committee and the Bill came back to this House and was read a third time. Then the noble and learned Viscount opposite (Viscount Haldane) took objection to some provision which might have acted hardly, as he thought, upon pawnbrokers. The Bill could not be passed last year because of the adjournment of the House and this year it was introduced in the other House. It has been through all its stages there and has been read a third time. It now comes to your Lordships' House—of course in a somewhat different form. What it does now is this. It attempts to protect those who are forced to borrow money by improving the class of people who are permitted to lend it. They have to take out licences. If they misconduct themselves those licences may be endorsed and there is a prohibition against their soliciting people in many of the ways which they have been accustomed to do by sending them circulars and so on.
There is also a provision which prevents their charging, as they have been accustomed hitherto to do, compound interest
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upon the money which they lend, and amendments are made in Clause 9 as to the rate of interest which may be charged. Your Lordships may know that at present moneylending agreements may be revised by a Judge if he comes to the conclusion that the terms of the loan are harsh and unconscionable. It has always been a matter of great difficulty for Judges to decide what were harsh and unconscionable terms. This Bill, which, as I have said, has passed the other House, now provides that if the interest exceeds 48 per cent. per annum there shall be a presumption—it is not more than a presumption—that the terms of the loan are harsh and unconscionable. The Judge may investigate them and he may decline to reopen the matter. He may come to the conclusion that in all the circumstances of the case 48 per cent. is a reasonable rate of interest. But if the rate of interest be over 48 per cent. then it is for the person who lent the money to satisfy the Judge that the transaction was not what a former Statute calls harsh and unconscionable. I think that is probably the greatest amendment of the present law which this Bill contains. I would call the attention of the noble and learned Viscount opposite (Viscount Haldane) to the fact that Clause 13 deals especially with loans made by pawnbrokers. Your Lordships no doubt will hear from him whether he is content with that or whether he would desire to move an Amendment to it should your Lordships read this Bill a second time, which I now ask you to do.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Darling.)
LORD CARSON: My Lords, as I originally introduced a Bill on this subject two years ago and again last year, which your Lordships were good enough to pass, perhaps I may be allowed to make one or two observations before the Second Reading debate in concluded. I feel very glad that the House of Commons have been able to pass this Bill, containing as it does very many valuable provisions which I think will be a great improvement of the law as regards moneylenders. I do not intend to go through them in detail, because most of them I discussed in this House and they have been considered very carefully by a Joint Committee of

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the two Houses. I am very slow to make any criticisms of the Bill because my criticisms are more as to what is not in it rather than to what is in the Bill. I have observed the great difficulty which those in the House of Commons who had charge of the Bill had in getting it through the Committee owing to the various devices which were adopted by certain members of a Party who seemed to make an exception in protecting this class of capitalist. I am, therefore, very slow to do anything or say anything that might render the passing of this Bill into law more difficult. At the same time I am bound to draw attention to two or three of its provisions.
After a good deal of argument a clause was inserted in the previous Bill giving the Lord Chancellor power to increase the jurisdiction of the county court in relation to these claims by moneylenders. I am very sorry that that is omitted from this Bill. It is all very well to make enactments protecting the subject, or protecting the borrower in relation to moneylending transactions, but if a man who has been broken through moneylending transactions is brought before the High Court with all the expenses incidental thereto, I cannot see how he is to get the justice that this Bill pretends to mete out to him. To issue a writ in the High Court against a man who is at his last extremity (or the writ would not have been necessary), means that you are putting him in a position where he cannot assert his rights. The moneylender can ask for an order for summary judgment. If he wants to oppose the summary judgment the borrower has to employ counsel and solicitor and to engage in all the trouble and expense of an expensive action in the High Court. I think that probably is, in most cases, a negation of justice to men who are brought into this position by the particular method of these moneylenders.
So far as I am concerned, I would ask my noble friend the Lord Chancellor to consider whether it would not be well that we should restore what was Clause 3 in the Bill which was passed by this House last year, which gave an opportunity of enlarging as might be thought necessary from time to time the jurisdiction of the county courts, in which at very little expense the borrower could assert his rights. If the moneylender has the county court at his disposal, with the right to go to the King's Bench if any
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point of law has been wrongfully decided, I think he is very well protected. I think it really is almost farcical to tell a man who has been ruined by moneylenders: "You can go and assert your position in the High Court and if necessary"—as the moneylenders could, no doubt, as regards their funds—"go on to get justice in the House of Lords." I do not think that is leaving open to a man in such circumstances the possibility of privileges which the Legislature would seem to have conferred if you pass this Bill.
There is another provision which I am very sorry has been left out. There was a provision in the Bill which passed your Lordships' House last year, respecting the rights of moneylenders in certain cases as regards public officers holding public offices or employment in certain cases which I will explain in a moment, and including officers in His Majesty's Naval, Military and Air Forces. There are a number of Acts of Parliament which provide that the pay, salary or emoluments of such persons as those cannot be assigned or taken in execution of any debt by any person suing them. The reason—it is a very plain one—is that this pay is given to public officers or to officers of His Majesty's Naval, Military or Air Forces for their sustenance, to enable them to maintain themselves in carrying out their public function and in carrying on the necessary work which is part of the office to which they are appointed. It has been thought necessary in order that they should have that money for that purpose, to protect them by saying in such cases that the pay, salary or emoluments cannot be taken in execution of any debt due.
I am sorry to say, as I said when originally proposing this Bill—I speak with some knowledge and experience—that when young naval officers in particular come into port, having had trying times at sea and no doubt wishing to have, what you would expect them to wish to have, a good time, there is a regular system of trying to get these young officers—and it has succeeded in a great many cases—into the hands of moneylenders. It is a common practice that men who are called "bookies" should procure them to enter into betting transactions—I know personally of a case at the present moment—and when they are unable to pay what naturally

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every naval officer would want to pay as an honourable debt, they at once say: "I know a very good fellow who will lend you the money." They get the money at most exorbitant rates of interest. I am sorry to say that I believe there are a great many officers in that position. Young officers or officials who get into that position are not really able properly to discharge their public duties. They are pestered from day to day for the payment of these sums which they cannot possibly pay, and because of the fact that if proceedings in bankruptcy or proceedings by way of execution were taken against them they would lose not only their emoluments but their status as officers, the greatest possible pressure is put upon their relatives, who are told that if they do not pay up these debts then their relative must go down because proceedings will be taken against him in bankruptcy or under the Debtors Act, and, with a judgment against him, he will be unable to carry on the office he holds.
Last year your Lordships passed a clause which was numbered 11 in the Bill and read as follows:—
"No proceedings in bankruptcy or under the Debtors Act, 1869, shall be commenced or prosecuted in respect of money lent by a moneylender against any public officer holding a public office or employment, if the pay, salary or emolument of such person is forbidden by law to be assigned or to be taken in execution of any debt due by such person. For the purposes of this section any person in His Majesty's naval, military or air forces shall, whether on full pay or on half pay, be deemed to be a public officer holding a public office or employment,"
I do not want to imperil the Bill by putting down Amendments, because I realise that at this stage of the Session only the Government by giving time can enable this Bill to pass, but I would ask my noble friend the Lord Chancellor to consider seriously whether this is not a clause which might very well be inserted in the Bill with the responsibility of the Government themselves.
There is another clause which I am sorry these protectors of capitalism have determined to leave out. It is the old Clause 14, which provided that in the case of small loans within the sum of £3 no proceedings should lie at all. There is a vast amount of evidence, much of which has been quoted in former speeches in this House, that very poor
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people borrow money at exorbitant rates of interest for week-end or short periods and then find the greatest possible pressure put upon them. They are threatened with proceedings, and often, as I have been told on very reliable information, with something worse. However, these protectors of capitalism have thought it well to strike out this protection of these poor people and of course there again I would be overweighting the Bill if I were to insist on the point. I commend these matters to the House and to the Government, and I must express my thanks to those who were in charge of the Bill in the House of Commons on having taken a great deal of trouble in examining this question in correspondence with people all over the country I believe that by the passage of this Bill they will have conferred a great benefit on the people of this country.
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to repeat the apology of my noble friend Lord Darling for appearing so often on this occasion, but the Home Office is implicated in all these Bills and the Home Secretary made some remarks about the matter in another place. In regard to this Bill, the Government recognise the amount of time and the considerable effort that has been spent upon it, and would like to congratulate the noble and learned Lord who presided over the Select Committee and also all those gentlemen in the House of Commons who devoted so much time to the matter. The Government support the Bill in its present form, and I am glad to gather that it will be supported also from the Bench opposite. All that I need add on this occasion is that, when we come to Clause 6, the Government may possibly have to re-draft that clause, owing to certain criticisms made upon it in another place. In regard to the original Clause 13, which was withdrawn, a certain number of Amendments will be necessary in order to make the rest of the Bill read properly.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I do not rise to inflict upon the House another speech. All I wish to say is that I am glad that the Government have recognised the Bill, which I think is on the whole a good one, and that it has been a good piece of work to protect the pawnbrokers, who were hardly used under the

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Bill as it stood and who are now safeguarded by the clause that has been inserted for their benefit. So for as I am concerned, I hope that the Bill will pass.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EAST AFRICAN AIR SERVICE.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH THE EARL OF DENBIGH rose to ask His Majesty's Government for information regarding the progress being made, and the arrangements for establishing a regular air service between Cairo, Uganda and East Africa; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, very great interest has been taken for some time in the development of an air route up the Nile to the Sudan, Uganda, Kenya and Tanganyika territories, and I need not remind your Lordships of the manner in which those countries are developing and the large interests that are coming to the front there. The population is said to be something like 20,000 Europeans, about 50,000 Indians and from 12,000,000 to 15,000,000 Africans, and I believe the import and export trade at present amounts to something like £25,000,000 annually, of which about half is with the United Kingdom and other parts of the British Empire. It must be apparent to everybody that facility of communications is the one great necessity for developing countries of that description, and this fact has been recognised already by the Colonial Office through the loans that have been sanctioned for the purpose of developing railway communication in those countries, and especially in Kenya and Tanganyika.
At present letters take from about three to four weeks to come from Kenya to England, coming round by sea along the coast to Mombasa; and from Uganda they take anything from four to six weeks. The result, I believe, is that this country has lost a good deal of trade that might have come here, but goes instead to Bombay, where it is done largely by Indians and Japanese, for the simple reason that letters and commercial samples can pass from East Africa to Bombay in about ten days as against the three to six weeks taken between East Africa and this country. Early last year an attempt was made to start this air service, and Captain Gladstone., on behalf
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of the North Sea Aerial and General Transport Company, inspected and reported upon the route as most excellent for seaplane work. It was proposed to run twelve experimental voyages, and it was estimated that something like £10,000 would be required for the purpose. I believe that the Sudan, Kenya and Uganda agreed to furnish about £2,000 each, and Captain Gladstone's company offered to find the remaining £4,000. A special seaplane was built and sent to Khartoum, but unfortunately it damaged a float on a hidden rock in the river and it was not able to proceed. Sir Sefton Brancker, whose name is familiar to your Lordships as that of a great pioneer of aerial routes, was there and lent an old Army air machine, which flew from Khartoum to Lake Victoria but, owing to engine trouble, came down in the lake and, while the people on board were saved, the machine itself was lost.
I am very anxious to know what further progress being made towards the development of this air route, because Captain Gladstone and, I believe, Sir Sefton Brancker also have stated in public that the route is ideal for a seaplane service. Great interest is being taken in the matter, both out there and in this country, and I believe the idea is that a weekly service could be established. Of course, it will have to be developed gradually, and in the early stages a subsidy of some £50,000 will be required. No doubt this amount ought to be contributed by the Colonies and territories in question, and I hope they will be assisted also by the Imperial Government. As the traffic develops, I believe there is no reason to suppose that the service will not ultimately become a remunerative one, but at all events we are very anxious to know what is being done at the present moment, and whether the Government ism contemplating bringing this most necessary air service into being. I beg to ask the Question which appears in my name, and to move for Papers.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND): My Lords, I am very glad indeed that the noble Lord has put down this Motion, for the project to which he refers—namely, that of an air service to link Egypt with East and Central Africa—is one which has

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recently been engaging the close attention of the Colonial Office and the Air Ministry. Such a service, quite apart from the benefits which it should confer on the territories immediately concerned by speeding up existing means of communication, will, it is hoped, be the first link in what should ultimately be one of the great trunk air routes of the Empire—namely, a route from Cairo to the Cape.
The present position as regards this service is as follows. An agreement was signed last November between the Governments of Kenya, Uganda, and the Sudan on the one hand, and a company styled the North Sea Aerial and General Transport, Limited, on the other, whereby the company, in return for specified contributions from these Governments, undertook to carry out within a period of twelve months from the date of the agreement an experimental survey of the route, consisting of twelve flights in each direction from Khartoum to Kisumu. These flights would, it was hoped, suffice to acquire the data and experience necessary for the subsequent organisation of a regular service on a permanent basis. Your Lordships will observe that the northern terminus proposed for this experimental service was Khartoum, not Cairo. This was necessitated by, financial limitations, but in order that some kind of through service to Cairo might be available at least for official passengers and mails and that experience might be acquired over the longer distance—for the greater the distance covered, the greater is the advantage enjoyed by air over other means of transport—arrangements were made for machines drawn from the Royal Air Force units stationed in Egypt to carry out a certain number of flights from Cairo to connect at Khartoum. The section from Khartoum to Kisumu was estimated to take three days, whilst an additional two-and-a-half days were allowed for the section Cairo to Khartoum, making five-and-a-half days in all.
Unfortunately, the opening of the service was attended by a run of ill-luck. Its commencement was delayed by an accident due to collision with some obstacle under water and, as, owing to limitations of finance and the experimental
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character of the service, no spare machine had been provided, a standard Air Force machine was lent to the company. With this machine five successful trips were made—three outward and two return—when a second mishap occurred and the service had to be suspended pending the reconstruction of the original machine. This is now far advanced and it is hoped to resume the service next month. It would be quite wrong to deduce from this chapter of accidents that the service is impracticable or that its operation is likely to be attended by serious difficulty. That two mishaps should have occurred in the space of a few weeks is merely an unfortunate coincidence and not in any way due to local conditions. No one was injured, and but for the fact that, for the reasons I have already given, replacement machines were not available, as would have been the case with a regular service organised on a permanent basis, such as those operating between London and Paris, the delays which have in fact ensued in recommencing operations would not have arisen.
As it is, the flights carried out can be regarded as having established that the service is technically feasible and that there is every prospect of its successful operation with reasonable regularity, though of course a longer period of experiment under varying conditions of weather is desirable. It may interest your Lordships to know that the first homeward mail carried left Kisumu on the 15th February and arrived in London on the 26th February—a period of eleven days as against the eighteen days required by the fastest homeward mail by sea from Mombasa, and that it comprised some 2,600 letters from Kenya and Uganda. The confidence of all those in close touch with the project is consequently, unshaken, and advantage was taken by the Colonial Office and Air Ministry of the presence in London for the recent Colonial Office Conference of representatives of the Governments interested, to discuss both the reopening of the experimental service at as early a date as practicable and the possibility of the organisation, in due course, of a permanent service to replace it. As in all new enterprises of this character, finance is necessarily the governing factor. The provision of the necessary

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ways and means is still under discussion, and I am not therefore in a position to make any definite statement on the future of the service. The noble Lord may at least rest assured that all concerned—the Colonial Office, the Air Ministry and the Governments of the territories affected—are convinced of the desirability of this service, are satisfied as to its technical practicability, and are working in close co-operation with a view to its realisation. I may add that, in pursuance of a suggestion made at the recent Colonial Office Conference and with a view to the further study of the possibilities of air transport in East Africa, arrangements are at the moment in train for the despatch of an Air Ministry expert to investigate the question on the spot in consultation with the local authorities concerned.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I should like to express my satisfaction at the statement of the noble Duke. I am sure it is very encouraging to realise what are the intentions of the Government. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

JUDICIAL COMMITTEE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, a Bill of a similar character passed this House last year at a period when time could not be found for it in another place. The Bill is now re-introduced with certain alterations and additions. The main purpose of the Bill is this: As your Lordships know the appeals from India form a very important part of the work of the Judicial Committee, and the Committee is at present not of sufficient numerical strength for that purpose. It is proposed therefore to authorise the appointment of two additional members of the Judicial Committee having Indian experience, such as Indian Judges, advocates or barristers or vakils. It is proposed that they should receive a salary of £4,000 a year, of which one-half comes from the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom and one-half will be found by India, and I am glad to say that the Indian
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Legislature has this year approved that proposal. It is proposed that the members first so appointed shall retire at the age of 72, and that some provision shall be made for superannuation. It is of course difficult to ask that men of experience and position should accept these appointments unless they know that if they are compulsorily retired at 72, or if owing to sickness they have to retire, there will be some provision for old age. We therefore propose there shall be paid out of the Consolidated Fund a pension of £1,000 a year, and if the Indian Government choose to supplement that of course it will be open to them to do so. That represents the proposal as to the new members of the Judicial Committee.
Then there is added to this Bill a new proposal of this kind. As many of your Lordships know, the present law is that the Judges of some of the Dominion Courts who are named in Statutes or in Orders in Council shall, if Privy Councillors, be entitled to sit on the Judicial Committee. The number of persons so entitled is limited to seven, but it is proposed to remove that limit. As a matter of fact the limit has not excluded many persons qualified to sit. In fact I think at the present moment only one is so excluded. But there may be others, and we are always glad to have the assistance of distinguished Judges of the Dominion Courts when they happen to be in this country. As for myself I should be glad to be able to ask any of these Judges, if they are Privy Councillors, to cone and give us their assistance on the Judicial Committee. They always give us valuable aid, and it seems to me that it is in accordance with the policy of this country to welcome these high officers from the Dominions—if qualified to take part—to join the Judicial Committee and give us their help. The effect then of Clause 2 of the Bill is to remove the numerical limit to which I have referred. Those are the provisions of the Bill, and I beg to move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, this Bill is a thoroughly good Bill. The provision of members to sit in the Judicial Committee, particularly in Indian appeals, is so scanty that at times great inconvenience

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is caused, and, with the addition of two regular, paid members, who will sit as ex-Indian Judges, informed of Indian Law, we shall certainly be in a more efficient position. I hope in time that the Judicial Committee will not assign all its Indian members to one Division, but that they will take part in the general work of the Empire, judging causes from all parts of it. I am not going to say anything more about the Bill. I warmly supported it last) Session, and my only regret is that it does not go further and provide for the addition of two English or Scottish—I do not care which—fully-qualified members for the general purposes of the Judicial Committee, in addition to those we have got.
It interests me to see the age limit of 72 for the Judges who are to be appointed. That age limit would be merciless if it were applied to my present colleagues who sit there, and I should myself before very long be threatened. It is right to put in that limit in this Bill, but I am not quite sure that a provision might not be put in enabling the Government of the day to ask any noble and learned Lord who was sitting there to continue to sit notwithstanding that he had reached the age of 72. Some of our members are over that age, for example, Lord Phillimore, but he is as young and active as the youngest and most active of us—indeed, I think he is the youngest and most active—and it would be a great loss if we had had to part from him because he had reached the age of 72; and there may be others in that position too.
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However, we must take things as they stand.
The only clause I am not quite certain about is the final clause, which enables the Government to disregard the old limit of seven for the Judges who might sit on the Judicial Committee in virtue of their Dominion and Colonial qualifications. That is quite right in principle, but it may give rise to a certain amount of competition, in which each Dominion will desire to get its full share. If so, the position of the Lord Chancellor will be a very difficult one. He will be assailed by people going to the Colonial Secretary, who is interested in the matter from another side altogether, and without much regard for the numbers of the Judicial Committee. However, we must rely on the Lord Chancellor to be valiant. The constitution of the Judicial Committee and the laws which govern it are a most mysterious subject, which nobody has ever tackled, but we find in practice that, whether he is entitled to do so or not, the Lord Chancellor exercises great influence in the selection of the people who sit. If he continues to do so, and asserts himself against the Colonial Secretary, all may go well, otherwise I think in putting in this clause you deprive yourselves of a buckler which I myself, as Lord Chancellor, had occasion to use. But the rest of the Bill is a thoroughly excellent Bill, and I cordially support it.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before seven o'clock.

OUSE DRAINAGE BILL.
Leave given to the Joint Committee to hear parties interested, by themselves, their Counsel, agents, and witnesses, so far as the Committee think fit: The evidence taken before the Joint Committees from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.

EAST HULL GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the East Hull Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

IPSWICH GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Ipswich Gas Light Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

MANCHESTER GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Lord Mayor, aldermen and citizens of the City of Manchester:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

ST. IVES (HUNTS) GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the St. Ives (Hunts) Gas Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

COLWYN BAY GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Urban District Council of Colwyn Bay:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

CONWAY GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the borough of Conway:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

PORTSMOUTH GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Portsmouth Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WALTON-ON-THAMES AND WEYBRIDGE GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WELLINGTON (SOMERSET) GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Wellington (Somerset) Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

EARL-SHILTON GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Earl-Shilton Gas Light and Coke Company, Limited:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special. Orders Committee.

EXETER GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Exeter Gaslight and Coke Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

REDDITCH GAS ORDER, 1927.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Redditch Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

GUILDFORD ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1927.
Special Order in respect of parts of the rural districts of Guildford and Hambledon, in the County of Surrey:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

TORQUAY ELECTRICITY (EXTEN- SION, ETC.) SPECIAL ORDER, 1927.
Special Order in respect of parts of the rural districts of Newton Abbot and Totnes, in the County of Devon; and for other purposes:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.