Sitting of 19 May 1926

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.

ABERTILLERY AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 143 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of this Bill, and that the Bill be now read 3a. —(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MIDWIVES AND MATERNITY HOMES BILL.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, in conformity with what I said to your Lordships and to the noble and learned Viscount (Viscount Haldane) yesterday, I desire to state that upon inquiry I find that there are certain matters which have to be considered in reference to the Midwives and Maternity Homes Bill and, therefore, it will be very difficult to take it at the first sitting after the Recess. With your Lordships' leave, I will defer it for a week and put it down for Tuesday, June 8.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (EALING EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a. Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to Ealing; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

BRENTWOOD GAS ORDER, 1926.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order which was presented on the 19th of April last be approved. —(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
AYRSHIRE ELECTRICITY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LONDON, MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

INDIANS IN SOUTH AFRICA.
LORD OLIVIER LORD OLIVIER rose to ask the Secretary of State for India to give this House information as to the Agreement which it is reported in the Press has been arrived at between the Government of the Union of South Africa and the Government of India with a view to an amicable solution of problems which have arisen in connection with the residence of persons of Indian descent in the territories of the Union; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for India to give this House such information as he may be able to give with regard to the matter set forth in the Question I have put upon the Paper. This matter is, fortunately, to-day in a very different situation from what it was in last February when I brought it before the attention of your Lordships. At that time a correspondence had been proceeding between the Government of India and the Government of South Africa, which I asked the noble Earl to lay before your Lordships' House. The noble Earl has kindly furnished me with a copy of it and
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I believe a copy of it, in typescript, has been laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House. From that correspondence those of your Lordships who have had the curiosity and energy to inspect the Papers will have learned that at that time the attitude of the South African Government upon this matter was very different indeed from what it is now announced to be by the notification we have seen in the public Press.
At that time the Government of South Africa had declined any overtures on the part of the Government of India to enter into an official Conference upon this subject. They had, however, conceded that a deputation might be sent to South Africa from India under Mr. Paddison. That deputation, commonly known as the Paddison deputation, was merely to inquire into the economic conditions of Indians with a view, possibly, to suggesting some aid to the solution of the questions with which the South African Government was faced. At that time the Government of South Africa had not gone further than to make the concession—I agree, a very considerable concession—that that deputation should be heard before the Committee of the Legislature before the Second Reading of the Bill, whilst at the same time they indicated very resolutely that they would not be able in any circumstances to delay legislation upon this subject, for which they said public opinion in South Africa was pressing very strongly and very urgently. Since then an announcement has been made in the Press of a most highly satisfactory character, that the Government of South Africa has had the generosity, and the wisdom if I may say so, to abandon that attitude entirely and to agree to the proposals made by the Government of India for an open Conference between the two Governments upon the policy to be initiated with the view of solving the difficulties in which the South African Government finds itself owing to the residence of Indians in South Africa.
That is the correspondence which I ask the Secretary of State to lay upon the Table of the House because I think it is of great public interest. I myself have had the opportunity of seeing it in a reprint of the publication of the Papers which were issued in India. In the absence of more official statements I would venture, before I come to the

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character of the settlement, to quote the Capetown correspondent of The Times:—
"Three elements have contributed towards this temporary compromise. The first is a genuine doubt about the Asiatic Bill being effective in fulfilling its ostensible object."
Speaking on this subject in February, I said it was impossible for us here to judge upon the facts of the case, but that so far as the Report of the Lange Commission went it did not appear to make out a very strong case:—
"The second is a real reluctance to submit Indians qua Indians to a continuous stigma."
That is a concession to a very considerable feeling in India.
"This is an increasingly general feeling as the result of the remarkable tact and ability displayed by the Indian deputation, which has achieved a unique success both in its evidence before the Select Committee and in its unostentatious quiet intercourse with Ministers and others here. The debt of India to the deputation in these respects is almost incalculable. The third fact is that anti-Asiatic feeling in the Union is more strong among English-speaking than Dutch-speaking South Africans, and the conviction that this question compromises Great Britain in India has been spreading, especially in Natal, and has been a powerful influence towards compromise."
I should like to leave it to the noble Earl to say how far he concurs in that eulogy passed upon the representatives of the Government of India in South Africa.
I can only say for myself that the whole manner in which this correspondence has been conducted by the Government of India, the late Viceroy and the deputation, appears to me to be a matter for the highest and warmest congratulation to the noble Marquess who has recently laid down the Viceroyalty. He has, by his diplomacy and by the admirable character of the representatives he selected, achieved a very important success in the history of Imperial relations, and that is a matter to which the noble Earl is much better qualified to do justice than I am. I will only say that from the official correspondence published in the newspapers it appears that the Government of South Africa were under some misunderstanding with regard to the intentions of the Indian Government as to the scope of the Conference which they desired. Speaking for myself, I can say that, having read the correspondence, I do not think any blame whatever can be
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imputed to the Government of India for any such misunderstanding or that there was any lack of circumspection or diplomatic wisdom in any part of that correspondence, which appears to me entirely admirable in its character.
The Agreement which has been come to is a very important Agreement and I would like briefly to read the terms to your Lordships. The terms, as I find them in the official correspondence, are:—
"The Government of the Union of South Africa and the Government of India have been further in communication with each other regarding the best method of arriving at an amicable solution of the Indian problem. The Government of the Union have impressed upon the Government of India that public opinion in South Africa will not view with favour any settlement which does not hold out a reasonable prospect of safeguarding the maintenance of Western standards of life by just, legitimate means. The Government of India are prepared to assist in exploring all possible methods of settling the Asiatic question, and have offered to enter into Conference with the Union for the purpose. Any proposals that the Conference might make would be subject to confirmation by the Governments of the two countries. The Union Government has accepted the offer of the Government of India, and in order to ensure that the Conference should meet under the best auspices has decided, subject to the approval of the Select Committee and Parliament, not to proceed further with the Areas Reservation and Immigration and Registration (Further Provision) Bill until the results of the Conference are available."
I should like the noble Earl to inform us, if he can, what arrangements are contemplated with regard to the date and place of the intended Conference.
Is it proposed that it should be concurrent or in any degree associated with the deliberations of the Dominion Conference to be held in London next October? That is a point upon which the noble Earl may not yet be in a position to reply, but it does appear to me that this particular controversy is one which raises, indeed has raised, points which may very similarly arise between the various Dominions of the Empire and also may possibly arise between the Imperial Government and a Dominion, because, as I pointed out in addressing your Lordships in February, for the present, at any rate, the Secretary of State for India in Council and your Lordships' House and Parliament are part of the Government of India and anything which affects the interests of Indian subjects in any Dominion is a

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matter which affects the responsibilities of His Majesty's Government. Consequently, many difficult questions may possibly arise with regard to the effects of the autonomy of any Dominion in dealing with questions where the rights of natives of another Dominion are affected. As we know from what has transpired in the Press in the last two days, the question of the extent of Dominion autonomy is likely to be a matter of very careful and thorough discussion at the coming Conference.
Let me revert to the very remarkable and satisfactory form of the statement of this Agreement—namely, that the settlement of this controversy is to be aimed at for the purpose of safeguarding the maintenance of Western standards of life by just and legitimate means. Any efforts that the South African Government may make to safeguard Western standards of life and to prevent their degradation by the infusion of uncivilised customs or of miserable, penurious or insanitary standards of life will, I feel sure, have the entire good will of all Parties in this country. But a little more than that requires to be said upon the matter, because Western standards of life imply a great deal More than a standard of bread alone.
The Western standard of life and of civilisation is a very highly complex matter. We have applied in the expansion of our Empire certain discoveries of Western civilisation to the government of our Colonies which I hope we shall never see departed from. The Western standard of life is a complex resting upon Roman law, upon the Catholic Church, upon the religion of Christianity and upon the determination for freedom of the individuals of the Western races which has established at any rate this principle, that you cannot have a Western standard of life in a community where you have any class which is treated as serfs, bondmen or helots, or is in any way excluded from access to the whole of the privileges of that civilisation. Your Lordships and others have resolutely fought for generations for the maintenance of those principles of absolute individual liberty and equality and that absence of colour and racial distinctions in our Colonies which, as we contend, have made our Empire strong and can alone keep it strong.
Consequently, I read these words as a proclamation that in any settlement of this controversy there will not be tolerated any discrimination with regard to residence or occupation against subjects of His Majesty of any colour. That is one of the principles upon which our civilisation has been built and upon which, so far as Great Britain has any influence in the world, I hope that she will always insist. We cannot possibly control the development of entirely autonomous Dominions, but where a compact has been entered into that a certain solution shall be based upon certain definite principles, there I think we have a strong case for declaring resolutely and perfectly clearly what we understand by those principles—namely, that we have, in the course of the evolution of our Western civilisation, discovered the fact that you cannot build a wholesome or sane civilisation upon any kind of servility or caste system; and though it has often been said that the Indian people should be the last in the world to protest against the kind of legislation introduced in Africa, because they themselves are burdened with a caste system, that is an argument which we at any rate cannot use. It is one of the evils, as we see it, of Indian society that you have a caste system by which certain classes are excluded from social rights and equality. I trust that this part of the Agreement, coupled with the very admirable phrase "by just, legitimate means," is a guarantee that this controversy will be settled entirely to the satisfaction of the interests and of the proper pride of our Indian fellow subjects.
I do not desire to keep your Lordships for any length of time upon this matter after making that particular point, but, coupled with it, there is a point to which it has become necessary for me to refer owing to the developments of the last few days. Within the last few days we have learnt that the Colour Bar Bill, to which I referred in your Lordships' House last February and of which I gave your Lordships the salient provisions, has now, after being passed by the Assembly and rejected by the Senate, been submitted to a Joint Session, in accordance with the Constitution, of the Senate and the Assembly and has been passed in that joint body by a majority of sixteen, so that the Colour Bar Bill is again on its

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way to becoming the law of South Africa. I need hardly point out that, if Indians were affected prejudicially in their legitimate interests by the Areas Regulation Bill, they are also prejudicially affected by the Colour Bar Bill, and accordingly I want to ask the noble Earl whether he can give us any indication whether questions of the effects of the Colour Bar Bill on the interests of Indians will be dealt with in the same Conference and subject to the same principles as are laid down for the guidance of its deliberation on Indians' rights of residence. The provisions of the Colour Bar Bill are just as vital an infraction of the principles of Western civilisation as were those domiciliary provisions of the Areas Regulation Bill which are now to be reconsidered.
I think we can confidently adopt a certain attitude upon this matter of "colour bar" legislation. We are confident of the strength of the standards of Western civilisation and we are confident that, if you have a community founded upon the principles of European civilisation and if, imported into or mingled with that community, there are men of different race and colour, the strength and the spirit of Western Christian civilisation is so powerful that it will remedy those temporary difficulties which arise from the fusion of races of different standards. We have seen that in our West Indian Colonies, of which I have some experience. You have there a society cast in the mould of European civilisation—a society by far the greater number of whom were, two or three generations ago, newly emancipated slaves; and it was the theory that they must be placed in a special category. We pursued a courageous policy, having faith in the standards of Western life and civilisation, with the result that in these communities you now have Western civilisation, and you have sitting in one of your Lordships' Chambers at the present time a Conference of those West Indian communities, composed of gentlemen of widely distinct racial origins.
You have in our West Indian Colonies, owing to our resolute and courageous adherence to the principles of Western civilisation, Western civilisation developing as we believe it can be developed in South Africa. You cannot develop those standards if, as is proposed by the Colour Bar Bill and the Asiatic legislation, you
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exclude any members of your community from the opportunities of using their own faculties and themselves engaging in the activities of Western civilisation. It is this that this Colour Bar Bill and similar legislation refuses to natives and Indians. It refuses them the opportunity of engaging in higher and more skilled occupations; and it is absolutely impossible that you can do that and at the same time say that you are working towards the establishment of the standards of Western civilisation. I notice that in the correspondence there is a communication from Mr. Gandhi, in which he says that he gathers from the Paddison Report that there is already in Natal discrimination against Indians in the proceedings of the Supreme Court on the ground of colour. I do not labour that, but Mr. Gandhi points out, as I have to-day, that under the standard of Western civilisation upon which this Conference is conducted it must resolutely ignore and condemn any such kind of exclusiveness. Otherwise, the community of South Africa would certainly be setting out on a different path from that on which the British Empire has hitherto marched, and be dissociating itself from the principles which have met with such beneficial results in our connection with India.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having given me notice of the two specific questions which it was his purpose to put to me. I should have been even more grateful if I had received his letter before I took my place in the House.
LORD OLIVIER: I apologise to the noble Earl, and if he is not in a position to answer I shall quite understand.
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: I am not able to give so complete and satisfactory an answer as I otherwise could have given, but I do not think I shall be unable to give the noble Lord an answer in substance. The noble Lord's questions deal with two points. In the first place he asks me what will be the date and place of the Conference which it is proposed to hold. The answer to that question is that both those matters are now the subject of discussion between myself and the Viceroy. No conclusion has been reached upon either of them, and I will inform Parliament as soon as

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a decision is arrived at. Certain arguments could be used on behalf of the alternative suggestions which have been made, but no useful purpose, I think, would be served by their public discussion at this moment.
The noble Lord asked me, as a question flowing out of his first question, with which I have dealt, whether or not the subject matter of the discussions at the Conference—I do not use his exact words—would overlap or be connected with the discussions at the Imperial Conference. The answer to that must depend upon a number of considerations which cannot at this moment be precisely foretold. It depends upon the date and scene of the discussions. If, for instance, the discussions of the proposed Conference take place in London, and if they happen in point of time to synchronise with the discussions at the Imperial Conference, then all kinds of questions of convenience would require consideration and decision, as to whether or not you could usefully invoke such examination of this topic as must, I think, take place at the Imperial Conference, in the discussions which take place elsewhere. There, again, it is not possible to give a very precise answer at this stage.
The second question of the noble Lord is whether or not the Conference is intended to deal with what is known for brevity as the proposals for "colour bar" legislation, in addition to the subject of their more proper activities—namely, the Asiatic legislation. The answer is that it is not proposed that the Conference should deal with the matter known as the "colour bar" legislation proposals, and in fact the noble Lord, I think, cannot have been in any serious doubt as to the answer that I must give upon this point, because he quite correctly informed me that, as a result of the proceedings before the Joint Session in South Africa, it was now certain, according to their Constitution, that the "colour bar" legislation would become law. I have only to add that although there are proposals in the "colour bar" legislation which are not, to put the matter mildly, received either with favour or with gratitude in India, there is a fundamental distinction, from the point of view of Indian sentiment, between the "colour bar" and the Asiatic legislation.
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The Asiatic legislation was particularly, and upon the face of it, pointed at the Indian population of South Africa, and this discrimination was felt in many quarters to be harsh and difficult to bear. On the other hand, we have to recognise that the Government of South Africa have unquestionably a grave and general native problem with which to deal; that they are the trustees of the affairs and the interests of South Africa in relation to the problems which beset them; that to this general question such Indian questions as arise are secondary in their own inherent importance and secondary in regard to the numerical elements of the population of South Africa which are concerned; and that we could not take the view that the same considerations must be, or even ought to be, decisive of the "colour bar" legislation as the Government of India has, not unsuccessfully, urged upon the Government of South Africa to be relevant and possibly decisive considerations in the matter of the Asiatic legislation. It is not therefore hoped or expected, nor indeed would it be possible, that the "colour bar" legislation should in any degree be affected by, or engage the attention of, the Conference which it is proposed to call.
The noble Lord has said quite truly that an advance of great importance is marked by the Agreement which has been reached for the holding of a Conference. It would be premature to say that the holding of a Conference necessarily carried with it the certainty of an agreed, or even of a compromised, conclusion. But much, as the noble Lord recognised, has been gained. When a controversy which is differently envisaged in two great constituent elements of the Empire has reached more than once an acute stage. threatening to create or, where already created to maintain and exacerbate further feelings of ill will between the citizens of different parts of the Empire, a problem is already in being which must cause the deepest anxiety to those who have the interests of the Empire as a whole at heart. It would not be possible to deny that more than once, at the acute stages of this controversy, such a situation has arisen. It had arisen recently. It was not in the power of His Majesty's Government to suggest, and obviously still less to dictate, a solution. The statesmanship of the Government of South Africa, after

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the discussions which they held with the Indian Deputation, has, not without a sacrifice as to the course to which it appeared that they were already committed, consented to the holding of a Conference which makes necessary a postponement which cannot have been welcome to many of their own supporters. And they have made this Conference conditional only upon a broad general consideration, which has been superficially examined by the noble Lord—he could not examine it otherwise at this stage—and which I excuse myself from discussing at this moment because I think to do so in my position might to some extent embarrass the negotiations which must hereafter take place.
But we must make it quite plain that we are indebted, as indeed the Government of India is deeply indebted, to the consideration and patience which have been shown by the Government of South Africa in a matter which deeply concerns many elements in the population of that self-governing Dominion. The noble Lord spoke appreciatively—and not too appreciatively—of the services rendered by the deputation. The constitution of that deputation was made the matter of considerable discussion between the- late Viceroy and myself, and it is indeed a gratifying circumstance that they should have presented a case which is very near the hearts of many different peoples in India with so much tact, so much persuasiveness, and so much dignity in a country which was strange to them, and which must in many aspects have been strange to their methods and habits of thought. The deputation is undoubtedly to be congratulated upon the success of its efforts.
I have only to add that I associate myself again with what was said by the noble Lord in praise of the efforts which were made throughout the whole of his Viceroyalty by Lord Reading on behalf of this cause. He handled the matter, which at many stages presented elements of combustion, with that tact and conciliatory intuition which are two of his most valuable qualities, and I attribute largely to the method in which he treated the matter during these anxious years the preliminary success which has up to the present been attained. It would be wrong of me, I think, to hold out even now the impression that the matter was completely dealt with, but
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nevertheless I am of opinion that a large measure of success has been attained, for upon a great Imperial issue, containing many grave implications, two parts of the Empire, by friendly discussion, by patient negotiation, have avoided a clash on this issue at this moment, and have at least entitled us to hope that the maintenance of this spirit, a display of the same patience when the negotiations take place, may permanently end a source of misunderstanding and anxiety which has perplexed for many generations those who have been my predecessors at the India Office.
LORD OLIVIER: With regard to the question of Papers, if the noble Earl would prefer I will withdraw my Motion.
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: I do not ask the noble Lord to withdraw. Any Papers which can without prejudice to the public service, be published, will be published at once.
LORD OLIVIER: Will they be published in India?
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: They will be published at once.
LORD OLIVIER: I have to thank the noble Earl for his reply. He has given me as much satisfaction as I expected to get from him at this stage, although I am a little disappointed that he thinks it so impossible to bring into this Conference any questions of any rights of Indians other than those domiciliary rights which are affected by the Areas Regulation Bill. Shall I proceed with my Motion?
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: If the noble Lord will allow me to advise him I would not proceed with this Motion, because I have already voluntarily offered to give him all the Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in moving the adjournment of the House I beg to move that this House do adjourn until Thursday, June 3, except for judicial business.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before five o'clock.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of eleven members to join with the Committee appointed by this House as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of May 5.
BERMONDSEY BOROUGH COUNCIL (STREET TRADING) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

SCOTTISH WIDOWS' FUND AND LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL. [H.L.]
EASTBOURNE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL
MID-NOTTINGHAMSHIRE JOINT RAILWAYS BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, namely:—

E. Haddington,

L. Wharton,

E. Powis,

L. Erskine,

L. Wemyss (E. Wemyss) (Chairman);

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday, June 15 next, at eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

UNION OF BENEFICES AND DISPOSAL OF CHURCHES (METROPOLIS) MEASURE, 1926.
Text of the Measure: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.
FIRST FRUITS AND TENTHS MEASURE, 1926.
Text of the Measure: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS MEASURE, 1926.
Text of the Measure: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.