Sitting of 23 March 1926

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
SHOREHAM HARBOUR BILL (by Order).
Order for Second Reading read.
Captain A. EVANS: I object.
The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. James Hope): I think that the hon. and gallant Gentleman must be under some misapprehension. The Members who put down notices of objection to this Bill have withdrawn them. I understand that the promoters of the Bill have given undertakings that satisfy all the objections of which I have heard.
Captain EVANS: I was asked to object to this Bill on behalf of shipping interests. I did not know that any settlement had been arrived at, and I beg to withdraw my objection.
Bill read a Second time, and committed.
MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL,
"to confirm a Provisional Order made by one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State under the Marriages Validity (Provisional Orders) Acts, 1905 and 1924," presented by Captain HICKING; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Pill 71.]

VIVISECTION.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I beg to present two petitions, one on behalf of 653 inhabitants of Kidderminster, and the other on behalf of 918 inhabitants of London, collected in various districts from travelling vans. In both cases the petitioners humbly beg this Honourable House that the practice of vivisection be prohibited by law.
STREET ACCIDENTS CAUSED BY VEHICLES.
" Address for Return showing the number of Accidents resulting in death or personal injury known by the police to have bean caused by Vehicles in streets, roads, or public places in Great Britain during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1925 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 66, of Session 1925)."—[Captain Hacking.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    CENSUS OF PRODUCTION.
    Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade what proportion of the returns for the Census of Production in 1924 have now been received; and whether, in view of the importance of securing this information, it is proposed to take any steps to put pressure upon the firms in default at once to supply the required information without further delay?
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): The returns from firms whose production is substantial have, for the most part, been received, but in some trades the proportion of returns which are incomplete is considerable. Every effort is being made to secure returns without resort to legal procedure, and I hope that these efforts may be successful.
    Mr. HANNON: What representations has my hon. Friend made to the trades not sending in returns What effort has been made to get returns?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Every effort that is possible. If my hon. Friend will read my answer, he will see that we are hoping that we shall not have to resort to legal procedure in order to get them.

    CLOTHING (RETAIL COST).
    Mr. DALTONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the retail cost of clothing in this country is still 123 per cent. above the pre-War level, whereas the corresponding percentage increases in the

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    United States of America, Switzerland, and Germany are only 71, 77 and 74, respectively; and whether, in view of the fact that there has been a decline since last year in the wholesale prices of cotton and wool, which has not been reflected in retail prices, he will investigate the present margins of profit of manufacturers and retailers?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): I am aware of the estimates mentioned by the hon. Member. I understand that the Committee on Industry and Trade are already considering the question of costs of manufacture and distribution in British industry generally, and I doubt if there would be any advantage in undertaking a special investigation into this particular matter.
    Mr. DALTON: In view of the fact that the very high cost of clothing is one of the chief factors in keeping up the cost-of-living index number, would it not be advisable to have a special and immediate inquiry into this outstanding question?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: After giving very careful consideration to the matter, I have said that I do not think that it would be desirable.
    Mr. MACKINDER: In view of the fact that the Government have costings at all stages, is it not worth while to try to protect the consumer in some way?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I still find it difficult to vary my answer.

    FOREIGN BUILDING MATERIALS.
    Captain FAIRFAXasked the President of the Board of Trade whether anything is being done, or will be done, to promote the wider use of British bricks, tiles, and cement, in view of the increasing imports of foreign building material?
    Mr. ERSKINEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the increase in the importation of foreign bricks, tiles, slate and cement; and, in view of the fact that these imports doubled in 1925, whether he proposes taking any steps to arrest this progress in the interests of the British unemployed?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I will answer these questions together. The demand for the materials specified has recently been heavy, and I am aware that the volume of imports has been increasing. The Minister of Health and the President of the Board of Trade have impressed upon local authorities and upon the public generally the importance of using British materials to the fullest possible extent, and in the present case I do not feel able to recommend any further action.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is it the fact that the whole of the output of bricks in this country is being consumed, or are there large stocks on hand?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I am not able to state that, but the consumption is very great. I should say that the whole or most of the stocks are consumed, but I cannot speak for certain.
    Mr. ERSKINE: Do I take the answer to mean that the Government wish to discourage the importation of foreign bricks and tiles and slates?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: No, Sir.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is it not a fact that the British brick and tile manufacturers have a complete combine, and that the only way to bring down prices is to allow foreign bricks and tiles to be imported?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter of argument.

    MEAT (LABELLING).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a resolution, passed unanimously at Sheffield at the beginning of this month at the annual general meeting of the National Federation of Meat Traders' Associations, to the effect that no marking of meat, other than that already prevailing, is practicable, and that the proposal to issue tickets showing the country of origin is not workable; and what action he proposes to take?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Any specified proposal as to the labelling of meat, as well as representations against labelling, would be for the consideration of the appropriate Committee to be set up under the Merchandise Marks (Imported Goods) Bill if the Bill becomes law.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do I understand that the Government intend to ignore t he whole of the organised meat trade of the country, who, after all, know most about it, or will the Government not amend the Bill?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The Government intend in the Bill to set up a means of inquiry and examination, through a Committee, for the meat trade.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Why the meat trade alone?

    FLOUR (BLEACHING).
    . Mr. HARLANDasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any Regulations govern the use of chemicals in the bleaching of flour; and, if not, will he consider what Regulations are necessary to restrict the use of such chemicals?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): I have been asked to reply. The Bread Acts make it an offence to put into flour any ingredient or mixture not being the real and genuine produce of the corn or grain. My right hon. Friend is advised, however, that it is doubtful whether this provision would be held to prohibit the use of gases for bleaching purposes. A Departmental Committee is at present considering whether it is desirable in the interests of public health that the treatment of flour with chemical substances should be prohibited or restricted,

    SURVEY OF OVERSEAS MARKETS.
    Sir FRANK MEYERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether Sir Arthur Balfour's Committee on Industry and Trade have issued any further volumes since their survey of overseas markets?
    Mr. SAMUEL: The Committee will publish within the next few days a volume entitled "Survey of Industrial Relations," containing a comprehensive review of the position in regard to such natters as wages, hours and conditions of labour, unemployment and machinery for industrial negotiation in this country, together with a considerable amount of information as to the position in other countries.

    SUGAR BEET (CZECHOSLOVAKIA).
    Mr. BARNESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the price per ton to be paid to the growers of sugar beet in Czechoslovakia for the next season?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I have, been asked to reply. In Bohemia—and I understand that similar terms of payment are likely to be adopted in the rest of Czechoslovakia—the price of beet is either fixed or assessed on a sliding scale at the option of the grower, who must make his choice before 30th April, 1926. The fixed price is 150 korona (about 18s, 6½d.) per metric ton (2204·6 lbs.) of net weight. The sliding price is determined on the basis of the price of raw sugar with a guaranteed minimum of 120 korona (about 14s. 9½d.) per metric ton.
    Mr. BARNES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this figure of the cost of production is about 2s. 6d. less than the subsidy paid to the beet-sugar growers in this country?
    Mr. SAMUEL: I am not aware of it.

    CEMENT (IMPORTS).
    Mr. SANUEMANasked the President of the Board of Trade how many tons of cement were imported into this country last year?
    Mr. SAMUEL: 217,452 tons.
    Mr. SANDEMAN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that each ton of cement which is brought into this country is carried in 12 bags which ought to be made in Dundee, and cannot he do anything to help the jute industry in Dundee, which is getting in a very bad state?

    WOOLLEN GOODS (EXPORT).
    Mr. ROBINSONasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of woollen goods exported during the 12 months ended 31st December, 1925; to which countries were the largest quantities of exports made; and whether any of the money allocated for the development of Empire trade will be expended in advertising in foreign countries the quality and merits of British woollen goods?
    Mr. SAMUEL: The declared value of woollen and worsted tissues (piece goods)

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    of British manufacture exported to all destinations during 1925 amounted to £35,282,000. The largest quantities were consigned to China (including Hong Kong), Japan, United States, Argentina and the Netherlands among foreign countries; and to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, British South Africa and British East Indies, among British countries. Similar particulars for other descriptions of woollen and worsted manufactures are not at present available. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for North Bradford by the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs on 15th March, a copy of which is being sent to him.

  RUSSIA.

    GOLD EXPORTS TO GREAT BRITAIN.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the amount of gold imported from Russia to Great Britain during the week ending the 3rd instant?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): No gold was imported from Russia during the week ended the 3rd March.
    Sir W. DAVISON: How it is that the information that is at the disposal of my hon. Friend's Department is not the same as the information which is common in the City of London; and is he aware that the Press of the country have been definitely stating (including the Financial Correspondent of the "Times"), that over £400,000 was imported? Does he not think it desirable that the Treasury should keep abreast of the latest information regarding the importation of gold?
    Mr. McNEILL: It is more important that the Press should have accurate information.

    SOVIET GOVERNMENT (JUDICIAL RECOGNITION).
    Sir FREDERICK RICEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the memorandum, with the observations in support, submitted to the Board of Trade in December, 1924, by the London Chamber of Commerce, urging legislation to amend the law affect-
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    ing the recognition by the judicature of this country of Soviet legislation as functioning here under the doctrine of the comity of nations; whether he has considered the prejudice to British creditors of Russian partnerships and companies entitled to funds standing in the names of such partnerships or companies in English banks, and that such English banks state their inability to release such funds pending remedial legislation; and whether he will set up a commission to examine and report to this House on the subject of the complaints contained in the memorandum above referred to, with a view to legislative action being taken thereon?
    Mr. SAMUEL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and I am aware that the existing situation is causing a certain amount of trouble. The difficulties in the way of immediate legislation are, however, such that I doubt the utility of setting up a Commission as suggested by my hon. Friend.

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.

    GLASS-MAKING INDUSTRY.
    Sir ROBERT GOWERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that Messrs. Ackroyd and Best, Limited, glass-makers, claim that a promise was given in or about the year 1914 by His Majesty's Government that, in the event of their building and equipping works for the making of heat-resisting glass suitable for miners' safety lamps, a certain number of years' clear protection as against all foreigners would be given to them as from the termination of the War; and whether he proposes to take any and, if so, what steps to carry this promise into effect?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: A promise was given in 1914 that., provided English manufacturers were able to supply a sufficient number of suitable glasses, no flame safety-lamp glosses manufactured in Germany or Austria would be approved for use in the United Kingdom for a period of at least three years from the termination of the War. Further explanation of the matter was given in the Memorandum attached to the Coal Mines (Temporary Provisions as to Safety Lamps) Bill, which was introduced in 1922, a copy of which I am sending to my

    1009
    hon. Friend. No lamp glasses of German, Austrian or Czecho-Slovakian origin submitted during the period covered by the promise were in fact found to be suitable for approval.
    Sir R. GOWERasked the Minister of Labour the number of men out of employment in the glass-making industry in this country?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The number of insured workpeople classified as belonging to the glass-making industry in Great Britain recorded as unemployed at 22nd February was 5,617.

    EFFECT ON TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether arrangements can be made to issue periodically a return showing the effect on trade and employment resulting from the steps taken by the Government for the safeguarding of industries?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I regret that, owing to the nature of some of the industries to which my hon. Friend's question relates, it is not at present practicable to give a return of the nature desired, but the matter is under consideration.
    Sir F. HALL: Considering that the number of industries that are guarded under the Safeguarding of Industries Act is comparatively small, may I ask, as they cannot supply it now, whether that me Ins that we shall not be able to know what is done with regard to these various industries under the Safeguarding of Industries Act?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: The matter is not quite so easy as it looks. It is having the earnest attention of the Department, and that is all I can say about it.

    VOLUNTARY AID DETACHMENT (TRAINING).
    Viscount SANDONasked the Secretary of State for War if he will arrange that Voluntary Aid Detachment personnel should do their annual training partially with the Territorial divisions of their locality when they go to camp?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): As Voluntary Aid Detachment personnel will
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    be employed principally in general hospitals in the event of war, it is considered that they derive more useful experience from the training which they receive in military hospitals than it would be possible to obtain by training with Territorial divisions.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    DEPTFORD CATTLE MARKET.
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for War for what purpose has his Department acquired the Deptford cattle market, and what price is being paid for same?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Deptford cattle market has been acquired as a supply reserve depot for the storage and turnover of war reserves of supplies, and the receipt, custody and issue of certain supplies for peace consumption. The purchase price, as fixed by arbitration, is £389,000.
    Colonel DAY: Is it not a fact that this market was offered to the War Office previously at £250,000 and was refused?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I believe that in 1913 there was an offer at £250,000, but just previously to the arbitration rather over £1,000,000 was asked for it.
    Captain FAIRFAX: Does that price include all the equipment of the depot?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: No. It is the purchase price payable for the freehold.

    OFFICERS' QUARTERS, WIESBADEN,
    Mr. ERSKINEasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that six officers of the 1st King's Dragoon Guards, at Wiesbaden, are living in a single roofed hut as their permanent quarters, and that, owing to its construction, the heat in summer would make it intolerable for human habitation; and will he take steps to ensure that these officers are properly accommodated?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I presume my hon. Friend refers to a wooden hut near the mess of the 1st King's Dragoon Guards at Wiesbaden which is being reconditioned for use as quarters for seven single officers. As

    1011
    this hut has a wooden felt-covered roof supplemented by a wooden ceiling with a wide air space between, I am advised that there is no reason to suppose that it will not he suitable for occupation both in summer and winter.

    KNELLER HALL BAND.
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the band of Kneller Hall, Royal Military School of Music, has been engaged at the London Coliseum as a symphonic combination and, in view of the prevailing distress among civilian musicians, will he take such action as will prevent such employment of students receiving training from public funds?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am aware of the engagement referred to. As regards the second part of the question, the engagement does not interfere with the training of the students who comprise the band, and the fees received are not lower than would be charged by civilian musicians. I am therefore not prepared to issue instructions to the effect desired by the hon. Member.
    Colonel DAY: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it fair that this band, which receives fees out of public funds, should be allowed to compete with civilian bands?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. and gallant Member not to repeat the question which is on the Paper.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman not greatly touched to find a gallant colonel backing civilian as against military bands?

    CAVALRY (STRENGTH).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for War the estimated annual cost of the extra cavalry regiment which has been returned from India as no longer required there, including in the cost the provision and maintenance of the necessary accommodation and whether any further methods of economy practiced by India will likewise involve us in an additional cavalry establishment?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: For an estimate of the approximate annual effective cost of a cavalry regiment at home in 1926 I would refer the right hon.
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    Member to page 254 of the Army Estimates just presented. As regards the latter part of his question, I can add nothing to what I said in the course of the Debate on the introduction of the Estimates.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Are we to understand that the figures given on that occasion include the cost of accommodation?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Yes. The figures were given in detail there and show the cost of accommodation.

    HAND-AMBULANCES.
    Mr. ERSKINEasked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that during the late War the infantry traction proved, under service conditions, to be inadequate, he will consult the official records at the War Office from fighting units as to the comparative merits of the Furber hand-ambulance and the Miller James hand-ambulance before deciding on the official pattern?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The question of infantry traction is one which is under continual investigation by the military authorities, and all available records on the subject, including those relating to the comparative value of different hand-ambulances, have been fully considered.
    Mr. ERSKINE: Can the records be produced or are they secret?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: They are produced to me, but not to my hon. Friend.

    Houses (PURCHASE).
    Mr. LAMBasked the Secretary of State for War the number of horses purchased by his Department in England and Wales and in the Irish Free State during 1925?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The numbers of horses purchased in England and Wales and in the Irish Free State during 1925 were 1,120 and 600 respectively.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    ROYAL ARMY CLOTHING DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Secretary of State for War whether the new

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    clerical complements of the Factory Office, Royal Army Clothing Department, Pimlico, have yet been fixed; if so, how many posts in each grade have been allotted to this particular office; and, if the complements have not yet been finally decided, can he state the approximate date of publication.?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Two Grade II posts and seven Grade III posts have been allotted to the office in question.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Secretary of State for War whether it is in contemplation to reorganise the Army ordnance services from a depot point of view; whether consideration is being given to the possibility of moving the Army Clothing Depot and/or the department of the A.D.O.S. Provision from Pumlico; and. if so, whether, prior to a decision being reached, the staffs concerned will be given an opportunity of submitting their views on the proposals to the Army Council or other competent authority?
    Captain KING: The Army ordnance services are constantly under review. Consideration is being given to the future of the Army Clothing Depot and the department of the A.D.O.S. Provision at Pimlico. A decision on this question is a matter of administrative policy, and must rest with the Army Council.

    CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (PRIVATE SECRETARIES).
    Mr. MACKINDERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he will explain the cause of the difference between the sum of £450 paid as allowance for private secretaries to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the year 1924–25 and the sum of £750 paid for the same services in the current financial year?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): The sum provided in the Estimates for this allowance has varied over the past ten years from £400 to £800 per annum according to the amount of secretarial assistance which Ministers have from to time and in varying circumstances found necessary.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider this extra appointment and the recent appointment of a ceremonial officer at the Colonial Office are indicative of the Government's desire to economise?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The hon. Gentleman raises two different matters, but in regard to that with which I am concerned, I certainly do everything in my power to make as small a demand on public expenditure as is possible. But there are very good precedents for the allowance in this case. When the pressure of work is very heavy, it is usual for Ministers in such circumstances to act within the limits of their discretion in making such appointments.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Are we to understand from that answer that Ministers can appoint now as many secretaries as they like?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, that would be not only unfounded on anything that I have said, but completely inaccurate in fact.

    WOMEN TYPISTS.
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if, in consideration of the fact that there is a large number of women typists employed in Government Departments who have served on an average at least five years, he will arrange, as in the case of shorthand typists, a special qualifying examination without an upper age limit so as to give them a similar opportunity of obtaining permanent positions?
    Mr. McNEILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 15th March to the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves).

  SCOTLAND.

    SEXUAL OFFENCES AGAINST YOUNG PERSONS.
    Viscount SANDONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action the Government proposes to take with reference to the Report of the Committee on Sexual Offences against Young Persons?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): I propose to await the Report of the Scottish

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    Committee on Young Offenders which is now sitting, and to consider the two Reports together.

    ILLEGAL TRAWLING.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the prosecutions for illegal trawling in 1925 were undertaken against British fishing vessels; and how many against Foreign fishing vessels?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All the prosecutions for illegal trawling in Scottish waters during 1925 were in respect of British fishing vessels.

    BLIND PERSONS (TRAINING).
    Mr. T. HENDERSONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can state the number of blind persons of both sexes who are employed, or undergoing training, in the workshops under the control of the West of Scotland local authorities; how many registered blind persons there are in this area not employed, but employable; and how many fit to receive training, but not being trained?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: As the answer involves a table of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:

    TABLE REFERRED TO.

    1. Employed or under training in:

    —

    M.

    F.

    Total.

    (a) Royal Glasgow Asylum for the Blind.*

    305

    97

    402

    (b) Other approved institutions for the blind in the Joint Committee's area.†

    —

    —

    30

    *This is the only institution for the blind under the direct control of the Joint Committee of Local Authorities in the West of Scotland.

    †The Committee exercises the powers conferred upon them under the Blind Persona Act, 1920, through, these institutions

    2. (a) In the Burgh of Glasgow there are: —
    37 unemployed persons who have been approved as fit to be trained but have not yet been admitted for training.
    16 who failed to appear for medical examination.
    92 who have not yet been dealt with.
    26 who are unwilling to undergo training, making a total of
    171 unemployed blind persons in the Burgh who state that they are capable of employment.
    (b) According to the Central Register kept by the Scottish Board of Health there are also in the areas of other local authorities:
    11 blind persons who have been passed as fit for training, but are not yet being trained.
    57 who are not willing to undergo training and
    16 who have not been reported on, making a total of
    84 blind persons in these areas who state that they are capable of employment.

    SCOTTISH NATIONAL HOUSING COMPANY.
    Mr. T. HENDERSONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the grant of £26,750 paid to the Scottish National Housing Company for the purpose of making good any deficit resulting from that company's operations at Rosyth, he can state the amount paid as dividend to the shareholders of that company in 1925?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The amount paid in 1925 to shareholders of the Scottish National Housing Company, Limited, was £5,342 9s. 5d., less Income Tax amounting to £1,135 5s, 6d.
    Mr. HENDERSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the expression "dividend" is used? Is it not the wrong word?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: They are guaranteed interest.
    Mr. HENDERSON: Interest on what? On the share holding?
    Sir GILMOUR: On the issued capital.

    TRANSPORT SERVICES, ARGYLL.
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the inadequate transport services for the

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    island of Lismore and the community of Lochgoilhead, in Argyll; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this state of affairs?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have received representations regarding the means of communication between the island of Lismore and Oban. The particular suggestion which has been made is that the mail steamer which runs between Oban and places on the Sound of Mull should be diverted to call at Lismore. Such diversion would, I am informed, seriously disorganise the mail services in the more distant places which are dependent on this steamer. Lismore, which is distant only a few miles from Oban, is at present served by an efficient mail motor boat as w ell as by cargo steamers which call less frequently, and in the circumstances I regret that the desire that the mail steamer should be diverted to Lismore cannot be acceded to. I have received no representations respecting the transport services to Lochgoilhead.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lismore has not been able to get a daily boat and that the motor boat is very small and is very often indequate to meet heavy weather; is it not also the case that in such circumstances these people are left without any communication at all, that there is nothing to convey food or cattle, and that at Lochgoilhead they have only a small boat on which the passengers are mixed up with cattle?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: As the hon. and 1earned Member appears to recognise the futility of private enterprise in this matter, will the Secretary of State for Scotland give him a dose of Socialism in this area?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to issue the Report of the Departmental Inquiry into the transport in the Western Isles, as the question is urgent?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: All these matters are being carefully considered and, if any representations are made to me, I shall endeavour to see that attention is given to them.
    Mr. HUTCHISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any indication as to the name of the steamer which communicates with Lochgoilhead?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir. I have not that information.

    AYR EDUCATION COMMITTEE (SUMMONS).
    Mr. MACQUISTENasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that James Hunter Blair, of Savoy House, Ayr, who believes that six to seven years of age is the proper age to begin educating his son, and whose opinion is confirmed by the highest medical evidence, has been summoned by the Ayr Educational Management Committee for refraining from sending his son to a day school when he has reached five years of age; and will he take steps to have these proceedings stopped and, if need be, the law altered so as to prevent such interference with the rights of parents to do their best for their own children?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have no information beyond that conveyed in the first part of the question. As to the second part, the existing statutes give me no power of intervention. I see no reason for proposing an alteration in the law as to school attendance.
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the father of this boy is an undergraduate of both Oxford and Cambridge, and as he has the views mentioned in the question, is it not absurd that he should be compelled—
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is not the time for speeches.

    SECOND SCOTTISH NATIONAL HOUSING COMPANY.
    Mr. T. HENDERSON (for Mr. HARDIE)asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, when any members of the Second Scottish National Housing Company, or executive of the same, wish to dispose of any part of their nominal holding or property in the said company, they can do so without reference to the Government?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer is in the negative.

  COAL MINING INDUSTRY.

    DISTRICT WAGES ASCERTAINMENT.
    Mr. WHITELEYasked the Secretary for Mines whether the owners of

    1019
    collieries temporarily idle are allowed their colliery rates out of costs other than wages, and for how long a period
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox): The hon. Member is doubtless referring to the rules governing district wages ascertainments as agreed between the Mining Association and the Miners' Federation in 1924. That agreement allowed the costs, including a proper proportion of local rates, of a colliery which is temporarily idle to be included in the district ascertainment figures for a period not exceeding three months.
    Mr. BATEY: Is it fair that collieries that are idle should be allowed to put the casts on their wages and so tend to decrease the wages in collieries that are working?
    Colonel LANE FOX: It is hardly for me to express an opinion on an arrangement arrived at by the parties, and certainly I cannot interfere with it.

    OLD HEMINGFIELD COLLIERY (FATAL ACCIDENT).
    Mr. G. HIRSTasked the Secretary for Mines whether he has read the report of the inquest on the body of a workman named James Gentry, who lost his life on 10th March owing to the breaking of a. winding-rope at the Old Hemingfield Colliery, Elsecar; whether he has noticed that one of the witnesses refused to state how long the rope had been in use; whether the Coal Mines Act of 1911, Section 40 (5) and Section 66 (a), have been carried out; whether he will institute an inquiry into the cause of the breakage of the rope; and, in the event of the provisions of the Act not being complied with, does he intend to prosecute those responsible?
    Colonel LANE FOX: This accident occurred at a pumping shaft belonging to the South Yorkshire Pumping Association. It has been fully investigated, and, according to my information, the winding rope which broke had been in use for more than three and a. half years and had not been recapped within the six months previous to the accident. It is said to have been examined daily, hut the result of the examination was not, always recorded. The coroner directed
    1020
    the jury that the Coal Mines Act does not apply to this pumping station, and I am considering what action I can take.
    Mr. HIRST: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the winding rope in this colliery was put in eight years ago; that it has never been changed since; that one man or more men go down that nit every day; that there was a new rope brought in two years ago: that the men have invariably asked for the new rope to be put on, but the manager has told them that the other rope was good enough; and is he also aware that the feeling among the men in this district is that this man's life has been absolutely thrown away by had management?
    Colonel LANE FOX: The hon. Gentleman will see that there is a question of doubt as to whether this comes under the Coal Mines Act, and what our powers are in the matter, but I am looking into it.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the witnesses refused to reply to a question submitted by his inspector at the inquest held on this individual?
    Mr. HIRST: Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order!
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Batey.

    UNEMPLOYMENT.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Secretary for Mines the number of miners in Great Britain who were idle on 31st July, 1925. and 1st March, 1926, respectively; and the number of miners in Durham County idle on the same dates
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY OF LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have been asked to reply. At 22nd February, 1926, the number of persons classified as belonging to the coal-mining industry recorded as unemployed at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 18,736, as compared with 184,333 at 22nd July, 1925. The corresponding figures fur the County of Durham are 30,245 and 41,821.

    KENT COALFIELD.
    Major GLYNasked the Secretary for Mines whether any restrictions have been imposed by his Department in

    1021
    regard to the employment of unskilled men as miners in the Kent coalfield, considering the large number of trained miners in other coalfields who are now unemployed
    Colonel LANE FOX: I have no power to impose restrictions of this kind. As my hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware, the Royal Commission have recommended that the mine owners, the miners and the Ministry of Labour should confer on this subject, and I hope that this will be done as soon as circumstances permit.
    Mr. R. HUDSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of making representations to the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee to see that sane similar condition is put in before they grant any more money for these colliery companies?
    Colonel LANE FOX: I do not know whether the Trade Facilities Advisory Committee have any power of that sort.

  TRANSPORT.

    FOREIGN ROAD MATERIALS.
    Viscount SANDONasked the Minister of Transport what foreign stone is being used for roads; how much, and for what reason, in the United Kingdom and in Shropshire, respectively; how much of it on road work being undertaken by the Ministry; and whether any official expert opinion has been given unfavourable to Shropshire quarries for this purpose?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): The total quantity of broken roadstone imported into the United Kingdom during the year 1925 is approximately estimated at 200,000 tons, but 1 have no means of ascertaining what proportion of this was used in Shropshire, nor am I aware of the grounds on which various highway authorities have purchased foreign stone. I may point out that the tonnage of imported foreign stone represents less than one-sixtieth part of the total consumption of roadstone in Great Britain. On all road works undertaken by my Department, British materials are specified, and it is only when suitable supplies at a reasonable price are not avail-
    1022
    able that recourse is reluctantly had to foreign materials. I am not aware of any adverse report upon Shropshire quarries.

    TRAFFIC SIGNS, PARLIAMENT SQUARE.
    Mr. R. HUDSONasked the Minister of Transport whether the traffic signs which have been erected in the neighbourhood of Parliament Square are of a temporary or of a permanent nature?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I am, in conjunction with the Commissioner of Police, responsible for the erection of these traffic signs. They are of a temporary nature, and before permanent ones are erected I propose to examine the designs most carefully with a view to ensuring that the design is suitable to their position.

    SOUTH TEES MAIN TRUNK ROAD.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Transport the sum asked by the vendors for the plot of land of about one acre in extent recently acquired by the Middlesbrough Corporation for the South Tees main trunk road; the figure at which this land was assessed for local rates; the valuation by the district valuer of the Land Valuation Department; and the sum awarded by the arbitrator?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The sum asked by the vendors was £4,900. This amount included £1,572 in respect of the purchase price of the land and £3,328 in respect of compensation for severance and injurious affection. For poor and general district rates the land was assessed at £3 6s. 8d. per acre. The valuation made by the Valuation Office of the Inland Revenue Department was £332 17s. 6d. The arbitrator awarded the vendors the sum of £550 with interest at the rate of 5 per cent. per annum as from the 4th January, 1923.

    TRAFFIC REGULATIONS.
    Sir F. MEYERasked the Minister of Transport whether he is satisfied that the new traffic regulations in Piccadilly have been successful in accelerating the speed of traffic and reducing the number of traffic blocks; and, if so, whether he is considering the introduction of similar regulations in other main thoroughfares?
    Colonel ASHLEY: In my opinion, yes, but the experiment has not been in operation sufficiently long to enable any definite conclusion to be formed. The London Traffic Advisory Committee are exploring and will continue to explore, the practicability of further regulations designed to assist in other congested thoroughfares, but with experiments of this character progress must, and should, necessarily be slow.
    Sir F. MEYER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the abolition of the stopping place for omnibuses opposite Burlington House has caused grave inconvenience to a great number of, people; and is he of opinion that these regulations are necessary for the speeding-up of traffic?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think it is necessary to have certain stopping places if you are to make any real progress, but the experiment will be watched.
    Sir F. MEYERasked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider adopting a regulation whereby no vehicle shall be permitted to draw up to the kerb on its off side facing oncoming traffic; and is he aware of the danger of this practice, especially at night?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I understand that the London Traffic Advisory Committee have given consideration to this matter, but they have tentatively come to the conclusion that regulations on the lines suggested would increase rather than diminish the traffic difficulties, in the more congested thoroughfares.

    BRIDGES (STRENGTHENING).
    Mr. PALINGasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that during the last few weeks the Leeds and Liverpool Canal Company have scheduled no less than 325 bridges and are issuing writs against anyone who attempts to pass over I scheduled bridge with a larger weight than the notice provides for, and that as a result road transport is disorganised and serious delays are taking place; and whether he proposes to take any steps towards having such bridges repaired and strengthened so that heavy loads may pass over them?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The hon. Member is, I think, under a misapprehension as
    1024
    to bridges having recently been "scheduled." The Canal Company appear merely to have notified road users of restrictions already in force. In the circumstances mentioned, it rests with the responsible highway authorities to negotiate with the Canal Company regarding any necessary strengthening of the bridges.
    Mr. PALING: In view of the number of bridges that are being restricted in that way, and the consequent disorganisation of road traffic, cannot something more be done to get over this difficulty?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension when he says they have been recently restricted in this way. They have been restricted for a long time, but possibly the notices have only recently been put up. With regard to the other part of the question I have made inquiries, and we do give grants sometimes towards bridges if approached by the local authority.

    TRAVELLING FACILITIES, NORTH LONDON.
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Minister of Transport if he can now state when the Report of the recent public inquiry into the travelling facilities of North London will be published?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I propose to publish the Report at the same time as the Report on the travelling facilities in East London, into which a further inquiry is now proceeding.
    Mr. MORRISON: In view of the fact that the London Traffic Advisory Committee are making suggestions in their Report curtailing facilities in these matters, and that it is impossible to consider these suggestions without knowing what is in the Report, will not the right hon. Gentleman publish the Report first?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think I must wait until I have got the whole of the two Reports.

    LONDON TRAFFIC ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
    Mr. R, MORRISONasked the Minister of Transport how many schemes have been submitted to his Department by the London Traffic Advisory Committee since its inception; what is the amount of expenditure involved; which of these schemes have been sanctioned; and at what cost to the Road Fund?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The information which the hon. Member apparently requires is not capable of being summarised in the form of an answer to a Parliamentary question. Reference to the schemes recommended by the London Traffic Advisory Committee will be made in their Annual Report, which will be laid before Parliament in due course, and I would suggest that the hon. Member should await its publication.

    ROAD FUND GRANTS.
    Mr. MORRISONalso asked the Minister of Transport how many schemes involving grants from the Road Fund lime been submitted to his Department during the past six months; what is the total amount of expenditure involved in these schemes; how many have been approved; and what would be the approximate cost to the Road Fund of the schemes still held in abeyance?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Apart from schemes ranking for normal classification grants, 695 schemes of road improvement and construction have been submitted to my Department during the past six months. These schemes involve a total expenditure estimated at £3,126,000. 305 of these schemes have been approved for grant. The approximate cost to the Road Fund of the remainder of these schemes is estimated at £1,000,000. Some of the proposals may be found ineligible for grants, whilst others may rank for assistance next year.

    Moron OMNIBUSES.
    Sir F. HALLasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many motor omnibuses were licensed this year on or before 1st March; what were the respective numbers belonging to the omnibus combine and private owners; and will he indicate how many were owned separately by each of the latter?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Captain Douglas Hacking): The reply contains a number of figures, and with my hon. and gallant Friend's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Of the 5,190 motor omnibuses licensed in the Metropolitan Police Ditsrict on 31st March last, 4,628 belong to the London General Omnibus Company and
    1026
    associated companies and 662 to other proprietors. Of the latter proprietors—

    102

    own

    1

    omnibus.

    45

    own

    2

    omnibuses.

    11

    own

    3

    omnibuses.

    4

    own

    4

    omnibuses.

    9

    own

    5

    omnibuses.

    7

    own

    6

    omnibuses.

    4

    own

    7

    omnibuses.

    2

    own

    8

    omnibuses.

    2

    own

    9

    omnibuses.

    5

    own

    from

    10

    to

    20

    omnibuses.

    2

    own

    from

    21

    to

    30

    omnibuses.

    1

    own

    from

    31

    to

    40

    omnibuses.

    IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY.
    Mr. REMERasked the Prime Minister if the Government have any proposals to make to preserve the iron and steel industry?
    Sir B. CHADWICK: I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Penrith (Mr. Dixey) on 24th February, a copy of which I am sending him; and to the Prime Minister's answer to the hon. Member himself on 21st December.
    Mr. REMER: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will be prepared to have a Debate on this subject on the Consolidated Fund Bill?

    EAST AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT LOAN.
    Mr. REMERasked the Prime Minister when the Bill to guarantee the loans to East Africa will be given a Second Reading?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The Bill will require a preliminary Financial Resolution, and I hope that progress can be made with this after Easter.

    FRANCHISE (SEX EQUALITY).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to give a pledge that legislation for the purpose of establishing sex equality in regard to the franchise will be introduced in the course of the present Parliament?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not in a position to make any announcement on this subject at present.

    SUPER-TAX.
    Mr. MACKENZIE LIVINGSTONEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of overdue Super-tax; whether interest is charged thereon; and, if so, at what rate and for what period credit is given before interest is charged?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: In view of the fact that the main collection of the current year's tax is now proceeding, I am unable without a disproportionate expenditure of time and labour to state the amount of Super-tax at the moment in arrear. Interest is not chargeable in respect of arrears of Income Tax or Super-tax. Were such a claim to be made by the State, it would be difficult to resist a counter-claim from the public in respect of deferred repayments of tax by the Exchequer. As these repayments are in the region of £40,000,000 a year the Exchequer would on the balance be the loser.

    MALE SERVANTS, LICENCES (EX-SERVICE MEN).
    Mr. JACOBasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet decided to adopt the suggestions made in Question No. 53 on 7th April, 1925, for encouraging the employment of disabled ex-service men by exempting their employers from the excise duty on male servants?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The licences are administered in England and Wales by the county and county borough councils. In Scotland they are administered by the Customs and Excise Department, but the proceeds are allocated to local taxation purposes. I am afraid I could not undertake to introduce legislation which would deprive local authorities of part of their revenue, unless I were sure of their unanimous consent, and that a demand would not be made upon the Exchequer to replace the revenue surrendered.

    GRANTS-IN-AID (MESTON COMMITTEE).
    Mr. WEBBasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the publication of what purports to be a draft of the Report of Lord Meston's Committee on Grants-in-Aid; whether this draft has ever been circulated to or placed before the Committee; and whether he can state whether any steps are being taken to summon a meeting of this Committee?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I understand that a draft Report representing the views of the Chairman has been circulated to the members of the Committee, and that it is the intention of the Chairman to call the Committee together to consider it.
    Mr. WEBB: May I ask on what date it was circulated? It had not been circulated last week.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Then it must have been a very recent date.
    Mr. WEBB: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to give us any information as to how the draft came to be published in the "Times"?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: No, I am afraid that I am not. I am only in a position to say that I had nothing to do with it

    MINISTERS' SALARIES.
    Mr. BROADasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total amount paid in salaries to Members of His Majesty's Government in 1913; and the total amount to be paid for the same purpose in the present year?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The total amount paid in salaries to Members of His Majesty's Government. was £143,875 in 1913, and is now £144,400.

  BUDGET.

    HOTEL AND RESTAURANT BILLS.
    Captain STREATFEILDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the broad principles of a percentage tax on certain hotel and restaurant bills on the lines of the Entertainment Tax, as a means of raising revenue?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I can only say that, in accordance with the answer given on the 26th November last to my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Albery), I have been carefully considering the question of luxury taxation.

    DEATH DUTIES AND SUPER-TAX.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the state of the national finances, he will bear in mind the desirability of increasing the existing Death Duties and existing Super-tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must ask the hon. Member to await the Budget statement.
    Mr. THURTLE: In this connection, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer bear in mind that the rich are steadily getting richer?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I ask whether, as a result of increased taxation imposed in the last Budget, the Revenue has increased or decreased?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that question has been debated very fully on previous occasions.

    COMPANIES' PROFITS.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in considering his proposals for future taxation, he will consider the possibility of imposing an additional tax on the profits of companies which, after allowing for all prior charges, show earnings in excess of 20 per cent. on their ordinary share capital
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The ordinary share capital of a company does not by any means necessarily provide a real test of the value of its revenue producing assets. I am advised that this complication would involve expenditure on administration out of all proportion to the yield which might be expected from any moderate rate of tax. Moreover, it would be neither equitable nor in the public interest to favour speculative companies who had greatly watered their share capital at the expense of those who had conducted their business on conservative and prudent lines.

    MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (TRAVELLING ALLOWANCE).
    Mr. D. GRENFELLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what
    1030
    has been the actual cost to the Exchequer for the provision of railway tickets for Members of this House in comparison with the amount included in the Estimates for this service from its beginning down to the last convenient date?
    Mr. McNEILL: As regards 1924–25, the figures have been published in the Appropriation Account from which the hon. Member will see that the Estimate of the cost of this entirely new service was £70,000, while the actual expenditure was £22,177. For 1925–26 the Estimate was £40,000, and up to and including the 31st January, 1926, which I am informed is the most convenient date, warrants have been used amounting to £30,577.
    Dr. WATTS: Does the right hon. Gentleman not really think it would be a considerable saving to the Treasury, and a great convenience to hon. Members, to provide them with season tickets, instead of having to pay the full ordinary fares?
    Mr. McNEILL: That matter was very carefully considered, but it was found that it would entail so much extra expenditure that it was impossible to adopt it.
    Dr. WATTS: In my case alone, it would save over £100 a year.
    Mr. McNEILL: Yes, but the hon. Member's case does not stand alone.
    Mr. REMER: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving an option in the matter? In my case there would be a very considerable saving.
    Mr. McNEILL: The matter was very carefully considered, and it has been recognised that it would be impossible to mix the two systems. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I really cannot go into the reason, but it is so, and if the change were made, it would mean a considerable loss to the Exchequer.

    FIGHTING SERVICES (HEADQUARTERS' STAFFS).
    Sir F. HALLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will include in the Parliamentary Papers figures showing the cost of headquarters' staff per 1,000 men enlisted and per £1,000,000 expended for the Air Force, the Navy, and the Army, respectively?
    Mr. McNEILL: I am not quite clear as to what Parliamentary Papers my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind. I will however pass on this suggestion to the three Departments concerned which present their own Estimates and Accounts to Parliament. I have some doubt whether the comparison of the resultant figures would be of any great value having regard to the differences in organisation and in the nature of the expenditure in the three Services.
    Sir F. HALL: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many Parliamentary Papers are issued in connection with the three Services? My own desire is that in sonic of those Papers the figures should be put down explicitly under each head.
    Mr. McNEILL: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will specify the Papers he thinks appropriate, I will consider the matter.

    NORTHERN IRELAND (IMPERIAL CONTRIBUTION).
    Mr. D. REIDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the land purchase annuities transferred to the Government of Northern Ireland by the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and the moneys to be provided for the erection of Government buildings under that Act, will be taken into account for the purpose of ascertaining the amount of the contribution payable by Northern Ireland in respect of Imperial expenditure?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer is in the negative. Under the Government of Ireland Act, the contribution of Northern Ireland is to be fixed at such amount as the Joint Exchequer Board may determine to be just, having regard to the relative taxable capacity of Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend will find recommendations as to the manner in which the latter expression should be interpreted in the Final Report of the Northern Ireland Special Arbitration Committee (Command Paper 2389), of which I am sending him a copy.

  POST OFFICE.

    HULL TOWN COUNCIL.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Postmaster-General whether
    1032
    he is aware of the small amount of business transacted at the King Edward Street branch office, Hessle Road town sub-office, and South Newington town sub-office, Hull, during the extended hour of opening from 7 p.m. to 8 p.m.; that such business as is transacted, the bulk of which is the sale of stamps which could be obtained from automatic machines affixed to the office doors, does not warrant the expense involved in the offices remaining open for an extra hour; of the decision of the Hull City Council that it regards the extra hour of opening as unnecessary; and whether he is prepared to allow a return to the 7 p.m. closing hour in the case of these offices?
    The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer): I am aware of the resolution of the Hull City Council; but according to my information the business done at these three offices is not so small as to justify a departure from the general rule.

    LONDON TUBE RAILWAY.
    Mr. BROADasked the Postmaster-General the present position of the Post Office (London) Tube Railway, when it is expected that it will be available for full service, what was the original estimated cost, and what has been the total cost to date?
    Viscount WOLMER: The permanent way has been completed; the bulk of the electrical plant has been manufactured, and its installation is proceeding rapidly. It is anticipated that the railway will be available for traffic in the autumn. The sum provided under the Post Office (London) Railway Act, 1913, was £1,100,000; the sum expended to date is £1,411,000.
    Sir F. HALL: Have the Department disposed of the obsolete plant at Black-friars?
    Viscount WOLMER: Yes, Sir.

    POSTAL RATES (FORMS).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that at many post offices it is impossible to obtain forms giving the various important alterations with regard to postal rates; and, seeing that this is a great convenience to the public, will he endeavour to see that a supply of these alterations is available?
    Viscount WOLMER: Except in regard to literature for the use of the blind, thee have been no considerable alterations in inland postal rates for the past three years; and I do not fully appreciate the nature of any difficulty that may have arisen. I shall, however, he happy to have inquiry made if the hon. Member will furnish further particulars.

    TELEPHONE CABINETS.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the new telephone boxes are by no means as soundproof as those which they are replacing; anti whether, in view of the inconvenience thereby caused, he will investigate the matter with a view to finding a remedy?
    Viscount WOLMER: Telephone cabinets with folding doors, which have recently been introduced where there is insufficient space for the ordinary type, are somewhat less sound-proof, and the question whether they can be improved is being considered. They are not intended to displace the ordinary type of cabinet, which will continue to be used where space permits.

    PUBLIC FACILITIES.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the feet that the general public is not as well informed as it should he with regard to the facilities offered by the Post Office, he will consider further methods for making these facilities known?
    Viscount WOLMER: The Postmaster-General is considering what steps can he taken in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend, and will be very glad to confer with him on the subject.

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (DEATH BENEFITS).
    Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Health, if he will, in view of the funds accumulated under the National Health Insurance Acts, consider the provision of death benefits to be paid to the dependants of insured contributors under the Act, in order to meet funeral expenses?
    Sir K. WOOD: The provision of death benefits has from the first been expressly excluded by Statute from the schema of National Health insurance, and my right hon. Friend has received no indication of any general demand for its inclusion. No recommendation to that effect is included in the Report of the Royal Commission which has just concluded an inquiry into the scheme.

    SMALL-POX.
    Mr. GROVESasked the Minister of Health whether the incidence of smallpox has increased or decreased since the operation of the present Regulations affecting exemption from vaccination?
    Sir K. WOOD: It is presumed that the hon. Member is referring to the Order issued by my right hon. Friend's predecessor which had the effect of reversing an Order issued by him on the 20th July, 1923, and of re-inserting the form of statutory declaration of conscientious objection in the notice of requirement of vaccination handed to the parent or guardians when the birth of a child is registered. The Order of my right hon. Friend's predecessor came into force on the 1st October, 1924, and since that date the incidence of small-pox has considerably increased.
    Mr. GROVES: Quite apart from the data, that having nothing to do with the question, is the hon. Gentleman not aware that since the number of exemptions have been increased small-pox has diminished? In view of that, will the hon. Gentleman consider a change in the present law so as to make it easier for people to get exemption, or rather, to put it the other way, not to compel people to be vaccinated, if—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order, order!
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: Before that question is answered, may I ask the hon. Member whether it is not the case that since the lapse of the more strict regulations formerly prevailed, the incidence of small-pox has increased?

    INSTITUTIONAL RELIEF (WEST HAM)
    Mr. GROVESasked the Minister of Health the number of persons receiving

    1035
    indoor assistance from the West, Ham Board of Guardians 70 years of age and upwards who would, if they were not inpatients of the central home or infirmary, be in receipt of the old age pension; whether the guardians are in any way reimbursed for the cost of maintenance of these persons; and whether, if they are not so reimbursed, he can consider the necessary machinery for readjustment?
    Sir K. WOOD: 978 persons were in receipt of institutional relief from the West Ham Board of Guardians on the 1st January last. 105 of these were in receipt on that date of an old age pension, but it is impossible to state how many would have been qualified for such a pension had they not been inmates of an institution of the guardians. As regards the last two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the terms of Section 3 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1919, but my right hon. Friend cannot undertake to introduce legislation with the object of providing for reimbursement of guardians in the circumstances indicated by the hon. Member.
    Mr. GROVES: I cannot hear the answer of the hon. Gentleman.

    BAKER'S ITCH.
    Mr. HARLANDasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the prevalence in this country of the disease known as baker's itch; whether such disease is notifiable; and whether he has any evidence showing that this disease is due to the modern use of chemicals in the bleaching of flour?
    Sir K. WOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. This disease, which is not notifiable, was investigated by the Medical Department of the Ministry of Health in 1922, and these investigations did not disclose any reasons why it should be made notifiable. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Sir F. HALL: Is this disease regarded as contagious or infectious?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have not been asked that question. It is not on the Paper.
    Sir F. HALL: If this disease is on the increase, surely the Minister ought to be—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order! order!"]
    Mr. HARLAND: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this disease has been contracted in some cases by travellers handling samples?
    Sir K. WOOD: That may very well be so.
    Sir F. HALL: If this disease is on the increase, surely it ought to be notifiable?

    BRICKS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health the approximate number of bricks that were produced in this country in the two years 1913 and 7925, and the number of bricks that were imported during the saint, two years?
    Sir K. WOOD: Reliable figures are not available for pre-War production of bricks, but it was estimated that the average production for the three years prior to the War was 2,805,000,000 per annum. Returns which have recently been obtained by the Building Materials Committee indicate that the annual output of common building bricks in England and Wales was, at the end of 1925, at the rate of about 5,115,000,000. It is estimated that approximately 2,800,000 bricks were imported in 1913 and approximately 159,000,000 in 1925.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Seeing that the number of bricks that have been made in this country last year and this year is nearly twice as many as were made before the War, and are being used up by fewer bricklayers, will he deprecate insinuations of "ca'canny" in future?
    Sir K. WOOD: I am afraid I cannot accept the assumption of the hon. Member.

  AGRICULTURE.

    CHERRIES (IMPORTATION).
    Major Sir GRANVILLE WHELERasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to prevent the importation this year of cherries from abroad which are infested with maggots?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Guinness): Discussions with the French Government are still in progress, and I regret that at the moment I can

    1037
    add nothing to the reply which I gave to the Member for Stone on the 25th ultimo.
    Sir G. WHEELER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these French cherries are mixed with English cherries with the result that it is a very set ions matter for the British cherry producer, and will he take steps to see that something is done?
    Mr. GUINNESS: We are pursuing the matter actively. Sir Daniel Hall had an interview yesterday in Paris with the French authorities, and I hope, as a result, that we shall avoid the necessity of controlling the imports here by the checking of the exports on the other side.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a great proportion of this fruit is brought into this country in the condition described?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The hon. and gallant Gentleman may rest assured that if we find a cherry which has a maggot in it it comes from Western Europe. As far as is known, the cherry fly-larva is never found in this country.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that I represent an importing country where the greatest care is taken by the Association of Manufacturers to see that the fruit brought in is absolutely sound?
    Mr. GUINNESS: Yes, it could not be in their interests to encourage these maggotty cherries.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: They do not buy them!

    DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACT.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he proposes to interfere with the methods of local administration in carrying out the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Acts; whether he has received representations from the health committee of the Liverpool City Council objecting to the appointment of chief constables as chief inspectors under the Acts; and whether his Department has made any inquiry into the efficiency of the present administration by the 1038
    veterinary superintendent and his officers and the professional and qualified inspectors experienced in animal diseases and the control and prevention thereof?
    Mr. GUINNESS: Certain recommendations affecting the local administration of the Diseases of Animals Acts were made by the Departmental Committee on Foot and Mouth Disease in their Report (Cmd. 2350) of February 1925, and were communicated to local authorities in circulars issued in July and January last. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part I have made full inquiries into the present methods of administration and while I still consider that in counties the appointment of the chief constable as chief inspector is conducive to efficiency, I have decided to leave the appointment of chief inspectors entirely to the discretion of local authorities.

    SMALL HOLDINGS.
    Mr. RILEYasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of civilian small holdings provided either by the Ministry or county councils without buildings previous to 1914; the corresponding number provided with buildings; and the total acreage in each case?
    Mr. GUINNESS: Up to the 31st December, 1913, the total area of land let or sold by councils of counties and county boroughs and the Ministry for the purpose of small holdings was 167,572 acres divided into 11,350 holdings. The number of dwelling-houses provided on these holdings was 2,264, of which 1,550 were existing when the estates were acquired. I regret that I have no information with regard to the area of the holdings equipped with dwelling-houses or the number and area of holdings provided with farm buildings.

    CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES.
    Mr. RILEYasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of co-operative societies, if any, formed by agricultural smallholders; and the number of such societies in existence in 1920 and 1925, respectively?
    Mr. McNEILL: I have been asked to reply. 1,037 societies of smallholders and allotment workers, registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts or in a few cases under the Friendly

    1039
    Societies Act, furnished returns in 1920, and 929 in 1924. Similar particulars for 1925 are not yet available.
    Mr. RILEY: Is it a fact that the number in 1924 was less than in 1920, and if that is the case, might I ask what encouragement is being given in the formation of these societies?
    Mr. McNEILL: I should like to have notice of that question.

    ALLOTMENTS (WAR OFFICE LAND, LUDGERSHALL).
    Major CRAWFURDasked the Secretary of State for War what is the actual percentage increase in the rent received by his Department in respect of the allotment land now held by the Ludgershall parish council as compared with the rent formerly received from the then occupying farmer in respect of the same land; and what is the reason for this increase in the rent charged for the same land?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: For the whole farm, of which this allotment land forms a part, the average rent paid is a little under 15s, an acre. The rent at which the area in question has been offered to the parish council is 30s. an acre. The rent now paid by the Council for some of the land is £1 an acre. The rent now paid by some of the allotment holders is £2 6s. 8d. per acre including rates. As regards the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave on the 23rd ultimo to the hon. Member for Devizes.
    Major CRAWFURD: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the figures he has just given do not confirm those which were given in a question which was put a few days ago, and which were then characterised as being inaccurate?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I do not know who said that, but he could not have known the facts.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    PENSIONER PETTY OFFICERS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY (forMr. HORE-BELISHA)asked the
    1040
    First Lord of the Admiralty whether pensioner petty officers and pensioner chief petty officers are now employed as such in naval ships and establishments; and, if so, whether they are borne additional to the authorised active-service establishment of the respective port divisions?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Davidson): It has been customary to employ a small number of pensioners on Vote A, including pensioner chief petty officers and petty officers. These ratings are included in the port division numbers.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY (for Mr. HORE-BELISHA)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, with regard to the pensioner petty officer and pensioner chief petty officer now employed as such in naval ships and establishments, if special arrangements are not in force, whether he will state what steps are being taken to avoid the infliction of hardship upon active-service ratings by a reduction in the flow of promotion?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: It is not proposed to take any steps in the matter. The numbers involved are very small, and all suitable active-service ratings, on discharge to pension, have the same chance of filling these billets as vacancies occur.

    HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "VALIANT."
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY (for Mr. HORE-BELISHA)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in consideration of the fact that His Majesty's ship "Valiant" was commissioned in February, 1923, for service in the Atlantic Fleet, and in September, 1924, s as transferred to the Mediterranean, so that the bulk of the ship's company have now served in the ship for over three years, a term longer than the normal commission, he can state when the "Valiant" is due to return to England, in order to relieve the minds of the crew and their dependants at home?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: The crew at present in "Valiant" will shortly transfer to "Queen Elizabeth," and return to this country in that vessel probably about the end of May.

    MEXICO (PETROLEUM AND ANTI-ALIEN LAND LAWS).
    Mr. WALLHEAD (for Mr. PURCELL)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will inform the House as to the terms of any Note presented to the Mexican Government with regard to certain provisions of the Mexican Statutes known as the Petroleum and Anti-alien Land Laws, which are designed to give administrative effect to Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Godfrey Locker - Lampson): Correspondence is passing between His Majesty's Government and the Mexican Government on this subject, but His Majesty's Government do not consider that it would be opportune to publish the terms of their notes at present.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (EASTER RECESS).
Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can make any announcement regarding the arrangements for Easter, and whether, at the same time, it is possible to give us an idea of when it is proposed that the Budget statement should be made?
The PRIME MINISTER: I hope the House will be able to rise on Thursday, 1st April, and reassemble on Tuesday the 13th. The House will meet at Eleven o'clock on the Thursday. I cannot give any indication about the Budget. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put a question down a little later on.
Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOK: May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, if the House adjourn from the 1st to the 13th of April, there is any necessity for the Ballot for Motions on 7th April?
Mr. SPEAKER: I do not like to deprive hon. Members of their opportunities, such as they are, and the House has not yet decided to adjourn at all.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS.

  SOCIALISM.
  Major S. HARVEY: I beg to give notice that to-morrow fortnight, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North
  1042
  West Hull (Lieut.-Colonel Lambert Ward) will call attention to the decline of Socialism, to the factors responsible for this decline, and other encouraging psychological manifestations, and move a Resolution.
  Lord HUNTINGFIELD: I beg to give notice that, to-morrow fortnight, I will call attention to the decline of Socialism in the East End as witnessed by the glorious constitutional victory of the Mile End by-election for the London County Council, and move a Resolution.

CARRIAGE AND DISTRIBUTION OF MILK.
Mr. LAMB: I beg to give notice that, to-morrow fortnight, I will call attention to the carriage and distribution of milk in this country, and move a Resolution.

ASYLUM OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT).
Mr. TAYLOR: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Asylum Officers' Superannuation Act, 1909."
The need for the amendment of this Act was recognised by the House of Commons as far back as 1911, when it appointed a Committee to consider a Bill introduced by the Noble Lord who is now Assistant Postmaster-General. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I would appeal to you to know whether a Member introducing a Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule is not entitled to address the House without persistent interruption?
Mr. SPEAKER: I think hon. Members are indicating that the hon. Member might have leave to introduce the Bill.
Mr. TAYLORThen I will move simply that leave be given to introduce this Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Taylor, Mr. Thomas Williams, Mr. Paling, Mr. Riley, Mr. Thomas Kennedy, and Mr. Robert Richardson.

ASYLUM OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) BILL,
" to amend The Asylum Officers' Superannuation Act, 1909," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read the Second time upon Wednesday, 31st March, and to be printed. [Bill 73.]

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Major Sir Richard Barnett to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Midwives and Maternity Homes Bill), Mr. Samuel Roberts (in respect of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill), Mr. Short (in respect of the Vinegar Bill); Mr. Ellis Davies to act as Chairman of Committee B (in respect of the Local Authorities (Emergency Provisions) Bill); and Mr. James Brown as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Heather Burning (Scotland) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.

MOVEABLE DWELLINGS BILL,
"to provide for the Regulation of Moveable Dwellings," presented by Major Sir GRANVILLE WHELER; supported by Brigadier-General Cockerill, Brigadier-General Clifton Brown, Sir Leolin Forestier-Walker, and Colonel Murrough Wilson; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, 15th April, and to be printed. [Bill 72.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS.
  SPEECHES OF MR. LLOYD GEORGE AND MR. MACDONALD.
  SIR A. CHAMBERLAIN'S REPLY.
  SUPPLY [4th ALLOTTED DAY]
  Resolution [18 th March] reported,
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1926–27 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT).
  "That a sum, not exceeding £117,810,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments (including Pensions, Education, Insurance, and other Grants) for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, namely: "
  [For details of Vote on Account, see OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1926, cols.. 617–20.]
  Resolution read a Second time.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I beg to move to leave out "£117,840,000," and to insert instead thereof "£117,839,900."
  I move this reduction in order to call attention to the- proceedings at Geneva, and the action of the representatives of this country at the Conference of the League of Nations. There can be no more important question for discussion thru what has taken place in the past fortnight at Geneva. The future of European peace may depend upon it. It is not a question so much of a review of the past, though that is an element of the line which is to be taken with regard to the future. The Ides of March ended, according to the right hon. Gentleman, in a tragedy. We have yet to weather the gales of September, and everything will depend upon the course which this House directs to be steered by the Government upon that occasion and between now and then. Everybody in the House would have preferred to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary what actually took place, but we have no papers, and therefore we are confined to the communications which have appeared in the Press. Of course we cannot assume that everything we have seen in the Press
  1058
  accurately and faithfully represents all that was transacted there. I express my regret, for that reason, that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen fit to pursue the course which he himself has adopted up to the present. When he came back from Locarno he took the floor at once and explained the character of the success which, amid general rejoicings, he had achieved and how it was brought about. I think, if I may very respectfully say so. that it would have been better if he had also explained how it came about that. Locarno was checked at Geneva, because then the House would have been in a better position to proceed either to criticise, or, if the statement cleared up something which was obscure, to accept what happened.
  I have seen paragraphs in the newspapers suggesting that any criticisms which may be directed to the action of the Foreign Secretary have necessarily been inspired by a partisan spirit. There is no Minister in this House who is less entitled—the right hon. Gentleman himself has not made that suggestion—to say that he has been treated in a partisan spirit by any section of the House since he has been Foreign Secretary, and he knows perfectly well how his success at Locarno was acclaimed without distinction of party. Speaking for myself, when I rose to congratulate him, I did it with a much better heart than now, when I am getting up to cast a doubt upon what he has done. The Liberal Press gave him prompt, unequivocal and unreserved praise for his action on that occasion, and he could not have been acclaimed with greater unanimity or warmth had he been one of our leaders. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which one?"] I think, therefore the right hon. Gentleman if he were responsible for those paragraphs would feel that they were not just or fair. The moment his speech at Birmingham indicated that he was de parting from the spirit of his great achievements those who supported him, whether on this side or the other side of the House, protested against it. There was no difference of party. They predicted disaster if he proceeded on those lines. It has ended, according to himself, in a tragedy. All I want to point out is that if anybody gets up in this House on this occasion to cast doubt or to suggest criticism, it is because they feel that there

  1059
  is something that transcends personal considerations and that the peace of the world hangs on the action which the House of Commons takes and directs the Government to take in the future.
  Let there be no mistake as to the nature of the complaint which is made or the doubts which exist. No one is so foolish or unjust as to say to the right hon. Gentleman "You triumphed at Locarno, but you did not repeat that triumph at Geneva, and you had to adjourn." Before the peace of Europe is established there must be hundreds of conferences. I remember how conferences were jeered at by people who have since taken part in many of them. I have always said you must hold conference after conference—sometimes failing sometimes succeeding, but still persevering. These are all stepping stones for Europe to walk through a morass to firm ground. Nobody has ever censured or condemned the right hon. Gentleman because he did not this time succeed in carrying through the Treaty of Locarno and had to adjourn it until September. In regard to conferences in the past and in the future, some of them will end in agreement, some of them will only achieve partial agreement, and some will fail altogether. But that is not the point.
  The suggestion has been made in the Press that Cannes failed and Genoa failed. So they did; and if the responsibility be mine, then my responsibility is indeed a dark one. That is all. History will answer that. That was an effort to secure pacification in Europe, East and West, by bringing Russia within the comity of nations. M. Briand pledged himself to do his best, and he did, but but he did not succeed. We obtained a pact of non-aggression which has been faithfully kept by Russia up to the present moment, but it did not succeed in its primary purpose. There was one significant incident that happened there which has its bearing, and that is the fact of a secret arrangement entered into behind the backs of others between Germany and Russia which bad a great deal to do with the failure of the conference. It is that kind of defect that marks Geneva at the present moment.
  The criticism, in so far as it goes upon the information which has come to hand, contains two things. First of all, that the
  1060
  Locarno Powers were responsible for the failure. The second was that it was a failure that damaged the machinery to such an extent that many of its best friends are despairing of the effect of it.
  4.0 p.m.
  Let us come to the question of the responsibility. I can speak only of the Locarno Powers, because there are two or three questions which I should like to put to the Foreign Secretary before I could say the extent to which he is responsible for their action. But there is no doubt at all that it was the action of these Powers which was responsible for the failure. I will take the speech of the Foreign Secretary at the very last meeting of the Assembly. What did he say?
  " …Owing to a regrettable misunderstanding, I ought even to say a regrettable failure on either side to mention a point which was of critical importance."
  That is his explanation why the Pact was not carried through.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Austen Chamberlain): No; that was not my explanation.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I quote the actual words.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman quotes certain words apart from their context. That was not the explanation which I offered why the Pact was not carried through.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am not in the least desirous of misrepresenting the Foreign Secretary, not in the least. That is why I was anxious to hear his explanation first. Without qualification, I accept what he says now. But he calls attention—I can put it in this way if he thinks the other is unfair—to "a regrettable misunderstanding, he ought even to say a regrettable failure on either side to mention a point which was of critical importance." [An HON. MEMBERS: "What is the point?"] I am coming to the point. Those are the actual words. What is the point that was overlooked? The point that was overlooked and about which, according to him, there was a misunderstanding turned out to be a vital one, and the whole of the public opinion of this country realised that it was a vital one the moment it was mentioned, except the right hon. Gentleman. What was it? It was part of the Looarno

  1061
  Agreement that Germany should enter the League of Nations. It was one of the obligations cast upon it. The right hon. Gentleman, in explaining the Locarno Agreement to the House, said: "The greatest difficulty we experienced was not in settling the Pact between Poland and Germany. The House might have imagined that. The greatest difficulty we experienced was over the entry of Germany into the League. Germany had certain difficulties, certain objections." What does that mean? That the attentioa of the Locarno signatories was concentrated upon that point to a greater extent than even upon issues which seemed to loom larger to the outside public, and yet, although they discussed it, although it seemed to be the most important point, the one point that afterwards wrecked the Conference was never mentioned.
  I think we are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he knew at that time that it was the intention of France and Poland or anybody else to insist upon the simultaneous entry of Poland into the League with Germany. I think we are entitled to ask that, because, if it is so, it is inconceivable that it should not have been mentioned. Take it from any point of view. There is no doubt that it was the intention of Poland. There is no doubt that it was the intention of France. Did the right hon. Gentleman know? If they did, this is the dilemma. If they thought that it was a matter so trivial, or if they thought that it. was something to which they could fairly assume that Germany would not object, every consideration of prudence required that they should tell Germany, instead of leaving Germany to find it out from articles in the French Press putting the point in its most offensive form—as a makeweight to Germany, as an antidote to Germany, because that is one of the phrases which was used, or as a counterpoise to Germany. Supposing Germany were prepared at Locarno to accept it, it was difficult for Germany to de it after public opinion had been roused and suspicion and apprehension stirred up by articles of that kind. It was therefore nothing but common prudence that Germany should have been told at the time if the Powers thought they would accept it. Supposing, on the other hand, they thought that. Germany would not accept it, supposing they thought if it were mentioned that
  1062
  Germany would not agree, then every consideration of honour demanded that they should be told before signing the Pact. That is the position. It left an impression somehow or other that Germany had been induced to sign the Pact without telling her all the conditions.
  I do not know whether Members of the House have read the Report in the "Times" to-day of the discussion in the Senate at Washington. It is a very unpleasant one. Its significance comes from the fact that we were all hoping that America sooner or later would come into the League of Nations, that it is only the advent of America that will make the League of Nations the perfect success that we all hope for. There is no doubt at all that what has happened here has put off America and antagonised her in a way nothing else has for some time. I am mentioning this in. order to show the impression created abroad by the fact that. this essential condition was withheld from Germany. This is what Senator Borah said. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] What is the good of scoffing at one of the ablest men in America? Hon. Gentlemen do not know him. He is one of the ablest men in America. He is one of the most influential men. He is the Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate, and he is relating a conversation which he had with the Ambassador, and this is the impression left on his mind:
  " A situation, as he saw it, dominated by the fact that those who had charge of the programme at Locarno entered into a secret agreement, and that they were practically intriguing against those for whom they were profressing friendship."
  That is the impression created on a section of opinion abroad. It was unfortunate, to say the least, that this fact should have been withheld. It has created a bad impression in Germany. It has created a bad impression in Great Britain. What is the use of suggesting that this is merely Senator Borah or somebody hon. Members do not like. Over 200 of their own colleagues sitting on those benches, the moment they discovered that a new condition was to be introduced into the bargain with Germany, protested. and it is to their honour that they did.
  Now the question is to what extent we are responsible. The obvious procedure

  1063
  was the one which was indicated in the communique of the Foreign Office to the Press announcing the Pact of Locarno, that a special meeting of the League should be summoned for the purpose of ratifying the Pact and for the purpose of electing Germany as a member of the League of Nations and putting her on the Council. If the Locarno Powers had stood by that and had insisted on the postponement of all other claims, who doubts that it would have gone through without any difficulty? No one. I thought, and I think most people thought, that that is what the words used by the Prime Minister in his speech in the House meant was to be done at Geneva. I think his words were: "That is the primary purpose, the dominant purpose." Everything else was subordinate. It was not a question whether Spain ought to be elected, or Brazil, or Poland, or Holland, or Sweden, or Czechoslovakia, but the moment the question was introduced you were bound to have a conflict between the nations that imperilled the Pact of Locarno.
  What happened? Instead of the Locarnist Powers going there and using their influence to confine the question to this one issue, they raised the other issue themselves. France said, "You must elect Spain, Brazil, and Poland." The right hon. Gentleman pledged himself to Spain. A great agitation raged from the Equator to the Pole in every Press throughout the nations concerned in the League. There were debates in Parliaments. The lives of Ministries depended upon it. All these people came there pledged by their Parliaments to put up a fight for their own country, and they had to go back, if nothing were done, saying. "We were beaten." If they had been told in a straightforward, firm manner from the start, "these things will never arise," you would have had none of this agitation. Instead of that, the Locarnist Powers, including Great Britain,negotiated, conferred, manŒuvred, cajoled—I am usinsg the words in the "Times "—indulged in international browbeating with a view to carrying their nominees. Instead of saying, "It is Germany, and Germany alone this time," they themselves began to intrigue, to propose, to press, to threaten in order to carry somebody else as well as Ger
  1064
  many. How can you blame Brazil under these conditions? She had her own public opinion to consider. She was a larger Power than Poland in area, in population, and in riches; it is a gigantic country. I am not discussing her claims, but, the moment you begin putting up other claimants than. Germany, you are bound to get difficulties.
  The right hon. Gentleman, or, rather, his friends, indicate that all this is a sort of partisan ramp against himself. Has he read some of the Press which has given him very faithful support? There are Conservative papers that have not given very consistent support to the Government, but I am not quoting them; I am quoting the papers that have been faithful, through good and evil report, to the Government—papers, some of them, edited by men who are great personal friends of the Foreign Secretary, and who are most reluctant to disagree with him or to hurt him—papers like the "Observer "—[Interruption,] Well, there has been no better friend of the Foreign Secretary than the "Observer," and there is no more devoted admirer of his than the distinguished publicist who is the editor of that paper. I will take the "Times." The "Times" has consistently supported the Government through good and evil report, and I will quote them. This is what they say, in their leading article of the 12th March:
  " It is not agreeable to reflect that, if our own Government had taken three weeks ago a firm stand in accordance with what was later revealed as the definite view of the country, this humiliating spectacle of national discord might have been avoided. Spain and Brazil had previously giver a formal promise to place no obstacle in the way of the admission of Germany to the League."
  Again, I could quote the "Spectator," which was one of those which certainly acclaimed Locarno and gave very warm praise to the Foreign Secretary at the time. This is what they say:
  " Sir Austen Chamberlain's failure has been as great as was his success at Locarno. Everyone knows that he has worked himself to a standstill at Geneva trying to bring about an agreement, and we are all sensible of the pains he 'has taken "—
  No doubt he made great efforts at Geneva—
  " but the mistake was made, not at Geneva, but weeks ago in Paris. It was a mistake of such magnitude that it could not he redeemed."

  1065
  I am quoting, not merely impartial witnesses, but witnesses friendly to the right hon. Gentleman, by way of showing that he is not the victim of a kind of partisan conspiracy against hits achievements. Here he has men criticising him who are among his best friends, and the best friends of the Government of which he is a distinguished member.
  Sweden took the right and the courageous course, and there is no doubt in the minds of the vast majority of people in this country of all parties, that Sweden represented public opinion in Great Britain as well as in her own country. She was treated, as M. Unden was treated, as a stubborn and irreconcilable pro-German, thwarting the beneficent spirit of Locarno. I remember that during the War the Swedish Socialists were pro-Ally. M. Branting, that great statesman whose loss was a real loss to Europe, was one of the best friends we had in our darkest hour of trial, and M. Unden is his distinguished disciple. He took a memorable part at Geneva, not, for Germany, but for the League; not against the spirit of Locarno, but for the spirit of the great Covenant of Nations. Sweden played an illustrious, yen, and an immortal part, and the reception given to its representative in the Assembly is a bright spot which shows what the view of the Assembly was with regard to what had happened. The Assembly was only called on the last day to register a decision. If the League was saved, M. Unden has done more to save it than anyone else by his struggle and his sacrifice.
  The record of Sweden with regard to the League is without blemish. They accepted its decision in connection with the Aland Islands, although it went against them, without demur, and rendered consistent support to the League that took away territory which they thought was their own. Their representative was squeezed out of the Council of the League in favour of a country that has consistently defied the League. It is no use ignoring these facts because -they are unpleasant. The nearest approach which they made to an agreement was when Sweden went out, or offered to go out, of the Council of the League to make room for Poland. Poland behaved well, according to all testimony at Geneva. M. Skrzyneky, as
  1066
  would have been expected of him, behaved with tact, restraint, and great dignity. That seems to me to be the universal testimony of all I have heard. But that does not prevent me from calling attention to the fact that high up in office in his Government is a man who defied the League of Nations by conquering Vilna and annexing it, in spite of the direct orders of the League.
  There is no Power that owes so much to the Allies as Poland. It was her misfortune that more than half her sons were fighting against the lands that were making sacrifices to win her liberation. I make no comment on that; it adds to her tragedy; but the fact remains that her liberation was achieved by lands against which she was forced to fight. In the last act of the emancipation, what happened? The League ordered Poland to keep within a certain line of limitation, Vilna being on the Lithuanian side. General Zeligowski marched with a division in defiance of that—it is only within the last few years—and annexed Vilna with a Polish division; and they said he was a mutinous general. The League of Nations, on the motion of a distinguished Frenchman who was a genuine friend of the League, M. Bourgeois, carried unanimously a resolution condemning the act, and we joined in the protest. The Polish Government sent back a message repudiating the action of their general, and said they were not responsible; but the President of the Polish Republic shortly afterwards owned that General Zeligowski invaded under his orders, and, in a year or two, in 1923, this general was given the highest honours that Poland could confer upon him as the saviour of Vilna, and he is now Secretary of State for War in Count Skrzynsky's Government.
  That is the triumph of Geneva. Sweden, that has been loyal in word and deed, and, more, in submission, to the great Covenant of the League of Nations, finds herself, in order to save the League, bound to give up her seat. Poland, that defied the League, that made a mock and a laughing-stock of the League, is by the action of the Powers of Locarno, put in the place of Sweden. How can you expect the League of Nations to thrive on action of that kind? But there is a special anxiety for Great Britain in what happened at Geneva at this time. We

  1067
  are bound by the Pact of Locarno the moment Germany enters. That communiqué suggested that we are bound now, but, of course, we are not. What have we done by the Pact of Locarno? By the Pact of Locarno we have guaranteed to protect the frontiers of France against Germany, to protect the frontiers of Germany against France. If France is an aggressor, we are bound to enter into the war on the side of Germany with all our strength, and likewise if Germany is an aggressor. It is a one-sided guarantee at best—there is no guarantee for our shores, there is no guarantee of our debts. A similar guarantee cost us, a few years ago, £8,000,000,000. I heard what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other day when he gave that very striking account of the finances of this country. He pointed out that the bulk of our burdens came from the War, in interest and pensions. That is what a guarantee cost us, and it was worth the risk if it gave us peace in Europe. But just see what this means. If there is a dispute, we shall be no party to the negotiations—they will be in the hands of the disputants. There might be an incident which would take it out of the hands of all the parties. There is only one rampart between us and war—the League of Nations. We can appeal to the League. What manner of League is it? The League on the morning after Locarno—how is it described? Here again I take the description from a perfectly friendly source to the Government—a "Times" leading article!
  " The intrigues carried on for many days in conditions of unexampled publicity were of a nature to disgust and revolt both the supporters and the opponents of the League of Nations. Geneva, the home of an institution designed to prevent war, was suddenly transformed into a scene of the crudest manifestations of those very intrigues that drove desperate nations into the blind arbitrament of war. The depths of national rivalries, suspicions and jealousies were revealed in full measure. The spectacle was revolting."
  That is Geneva on the morning after Locarno, when the spirit of Locarno was passing over the waters, creating a new era of brotherhood—when the loving cup was circulating. That is Locarno. That is the League of Nations now. What will happen when passions have been roused to frenzy by quarrels on the
  1068
  borders, when nations are disputing, when they are angry, when wrath is fermenting the waters, when armies are assembling, when there may be incidents and tragic blunders? If this happens in the green tree at Geneva now, what will happen in the dry, when Europe is tinder? That is the serious meaning of this—the effect upon the League of Nations.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (.Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) in a very powerful speech on Saturday criticising this, went so far as to express the fear that it had destroyed the League. I hope his fears are not true, and so does he, but it is a fear that is shared by many. The Government have a. majority. It will be for them to put this right, and I beg them to do it. I beg them to concentrate on saving the League. It is no use talking about the spirit of Locarno any longer. One of the best friends of the right hon. Gentleman in the Press said:
  " Locarno was a blessed word, but it is now a by-word."
  Let us concentrate on saving the League. Britain alone can do it. We are free of these entanglements and past feuds. We have had our fight. We saved Europe from the threat of a great despotism and, as is our habit, we harbour no resentment. We have done the work that Providence called upon us to discharge—[Interruption]—in our judgment and in the judgment of the majority of the people of this country, and we have no anger. We have no hatred. We are the only people in Europe who have been placed in a position where we can be like that. Apart from temperament, here we are in the deep, circled round by a moat. We can afford to be calm. France for a whole generation—God forbid that I should criticise her!—will have bitter memories of invasion. We have not got that. M. Briand is too broadminded a man, and too genial a temper to be vindictive. He is too wise a man to believe he can keep Germany down. It is very significant that the courageous speech he delivered at the Assembly—a very courageous speech, having regard to his public opinion—has been denounced by almost every paper in France as going too far in the direction of friendship for Germany. We are free from these entangling feuds. I hope, when the Foreign Secretary goes again to

  1069
  Geneva, he will go really with a free hand, freed from any promise he has given, freed from any pledge, freed above ah from the entanglement of these ancient fends in Europe—that he will go there to save the League and make it a place, not to foment, not to excite quarrels and discussions and rivalries amongst nations but to settle them, and make it not a battle ground for diplomatists but what it ought to be, the great council chamber of the covenant of peace amongst nations.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Before I enter or what is properly the subject matter of this Debate, I should like to pay a debt that presses strongly upon me. The House knows that, as the Assembly was meeting at the same time as the Council, there were present at Geneva during the aiduous and anxious fortnight I passed there representatives of the other Dominions of the Empire and of India. It was my good fortune throughout to be in the closest touch and consultation with them. The whole seven nations met almost daily in my room and communications of the most confidential character passed among us more than once a day. I desire, now that I am back here in my place in the House of Commons, to express the debt I owe to them for the sympathy and support which they accorded me in the most difficult task it has even been my lot to Confront.
  The right ton. Gentleman expressed some regret that I did not open this Debate, as has been buy practice on previous occasions. If he and others had suspended judgment until later, I should have thought that the natural and necessary course to pursue, but the first observation which will have occurred to anyone who has listened to the right hon. Gentleman is the extraordinary difference between his indictment in the House and his condemnation in the country. He comes here as an open-minded but distressed inquirer. He did not wait for my arrival at Geneva before he telegraphed to the American Press his condemnation of my action and his suspicion of my honour. It is quite true he did not suggest that I was a knave. He was good enough to say only that I was a fool. When these condemnations hive been passed before any explanations are sought, it was perhaps not unreasonable that I should ask the right hon. Gentleman to frame his indictment
  1070
  here in order that on the Floor of this House I could meet such charges as he has made, and know before I had to speak exactly what it was I had to answer.
  The right hon. Gentleman has not brought on the Floor of the House the charges which he and his Press—he is very fond of quoting the Press—have formulated day after day. Last week they were handing me the bow strings. There was nothing for me but immediate suicide. Now the right hon. Gentleman is only waiting for my explanation and regretful that my silence forces him to move a reduction of the Vote. I have never known a campaign conducted as this has been over the whole time of my absence when I could make no reply followed by so mild a performance when the right hon. Gentleman finds himself at last in a position to receive an answer to any charges he may make. My right hon. Friend was a great War Minister. He and I, following old Parliamentary practice, when we differ call each other in this House right hon. Gentlemen, and yet habit is too strong for us, and I do not mean to allow anything to be said by him or by me which will interfere with our personal friendship. That is in our old House of Commons tradition. The right hon. Gentleman was a great War Minister. He was not equally successful as a peace Minister, and I think the House may have some perception, even in the speech which he has just delivered, why he failed. He is too volatile to secure confidence; he is too disregardful of the view of the other party to inspire sympathy or promote understanding, and he has never been able to conceive of any way of making friends with your enemies except by making enemies of your friends. That, in a sentence, is wherein he and I differ, and where our methods differ, and why the results are different.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Results?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, I will show the right hon. Gentleman, if he will wait. He hinted suspicion, hesitated doubt, but formulated no direct charge. I go, therefore, to the sources of information to which, in those circumstances, I can go to find out exactly what are the charges' I am called upon to answer. I will try to state them and the House will

  1071
  say whether those are the questions they want me to answer or whether they are not.
  I understand the first charge is that, when I passed through Paris in December, I entered into some secret and unavowed agreement with M. Briand about the Polish claim. The second charge is that I acted with disloyalty to Germany.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That you made an agreement with Spain.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Then there is no suggestion that I made an agreement with Poland or with anybody about Poland?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The suggestion is made, and here I am quoting—
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not want my right hon. Friend to quote. I want him to say what charge he has to make.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will do so without any hesitation. The suggestion which I make is that the right hon. Gentleman, during his passage through Paris, entered into an arrangement with Spain, to support the case of Spain. Spain was to be given a permanent place on the League of Nations Council. Then M. Briand was to press the claims of Poland.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Oh! It was part of an arrangement with M. Briand? The arrangement with M. Briand was that I would press the claim of Spain, and that he would press the claim of Poland?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: M. Briand had already promised to press the claim of Poland.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Then there was a secret agreement between M. Briand and me in Paris?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The agreement was between the right hon. Gentleman and Spain. The suggestion is that he saw the Spanish Ambassador in Paris and that he promised there to support the case of Spain. M. Briand had. already promised to press the claim of Poland. It is only in regard to Spain that I suggest a promise was made in Paris.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The House will see that the indictment is a wholly different one—
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE indicated dissent.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN—from that presented elsewhere. The third charge is, if I understand it lightly—and this was repeated in the House by the right hon. Gentleman—that if I had put my foot down at some time previous to Geneva, not exactly defined, no other country would have raised a claim, and that the whole matter would have passed off without any difficulty. Lastly, the charge is that when at Geneva I engaged in secret discussions, instead of carrying on all the discussions in public sitting in the Assembly. Those are the four charges which, if the right hon. Gentleman has not wholly fathered them today, have yet been brought against me in the Press which support him. I propose to deal with them seriatim. After Geneva, I can talk with a freedom and frankness which I thought contrary to the public interest before.
  What passed between M. Briand and me in Paris? I would remind the House that I had left this country to attend an ordinary Council meeting of the League in Geneva. I stayed there a fortnight. I then proceeded to Italy for a holiday. I had been very nearly seven weeks absent from this country, five weeks of which was holiday, when I was not discharging the duties of Secretary of State, when I met M. Briand in Paris. I took the opportunity of learning his views on a number of subjects. I began the conversation by telling him that on no matter whatever could I take any engagement until I had returned to my own country and got in touch with the Foreign Office, and consulted my colleagues, if necessary. We spoke about the Saar. I listened to his views, but I refused to come to any arrangement.
  We spoke about Poland. I asked M. Briand to tell me what were the reasons for which the French Government proposed to support the admission of Poland to the Council and, more particularly, the claim of Poland to a permanent seat on the Council. I told him that I could take no engagement, that I could give no assurance as to the attitude of my

  1073
  Government, but that I should like to know his reasons in order that I might report them faithfully to the Government of which I was a member. There was ho engagement of any kind taken by me with M. Briand during that interview. Every suggestion that I undertook, in that interview, any kind of obligation to support the Polish claim, whether for a permanent seat or for a temporary seat on the Council, is without the least foundation. I denied it before I went to Geneva, and I desire my denial to be as categoric as possible. I had already, I think, before that, renewed to Spain the assurance that we would, in suitable circumstances, support the renewal of her claim. I had told the Spanish representative that we would renew the support which, four years ago, under the right hon. Gentleman, when we championed the Spanish claim and moved its acceptance, the British Government had accorded to it.
  With respect to Poland, Brazil and the other Powers, I adopted the attitude which has been adopted by the British Government universally in similar circumstances. I refused to give any pledge. I said that the attitude of the British Government would be declared at Geneva and that we were not prepared to tie our hands beforehand without listening to the discussion which might take place. There is, therefore, not the slightest foundation for all the suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman has fathered outside the House, though he has not fathered them here, that I instigated M. Briand or encouraged M. Briand by any sort of pledge or undertaking during my Paris visit to bring forward or to press the Polish claim.
  The second charge and the third charge must, I think, be dealt with more or less together. The charge is that I acted with disloyalty to Germany and that had I put my foot down—it must be a large foot to have such a big effect—no other nation would have ventured to put forward her claim. That is wholly untrue. As regards the charge of disloyalty to Germany, is it not rather odd that while my own countrymen make it, the Germans with whom I have dealt have never made it? The right hon. Gentleman quotes a speech of Senator Borah, and he draws attention to the painful suspicions which have been created in America. He had his share by his articles in creating that suspicion.
  1074
  He insinuated in his articles what he dared not say to-day. Why did he not quote the speech of Dr. Stresemann? I would take the judgment of Dr. Stresemann as against that of the right hon. Gentleman as to whether I acted in any degree with any lack of candour or loyalty to the German Government. I have made no secret of the attitude I took. I did my best to persuade other nations not to raise this question at this time. It was not, when first I had to deal with it, a matter of Poland at all; it was the claims of Spain and Brazil with which I was concerned. To everyone I said the same thing. I said, "Let us get Germany into the League and not complicate the discussion of that problem by introducing any other issue." If personal influence would have carried it, if national influence would have carried it, there would have been no difficulty. It was because other nations said, "We have been put off again and again; we have been put off year after year, and this moment when the constitution of the Council will be automatically open by the admission of Germany was pointed out as our opportunity to raise our claim." It was because that was the situation that no words of mine and no influence that I could bring to bear would have prevented the case from being raised.
  The right hon. Gentleman is one of those who believe themselves to be the profoundest adherents and warmest supporters of the League of Nations. They seem to me to forget what the League is. It is an association of equal nations. It is a place where nations having conflicting claims which they are unable to reconcile by direct negotiations are to try whether, under the influence of the League, by mutual concessions, some solution can be reached. To point to the representative of this country as some great dictator who can order these nations about, who can order them not to use their covenanted rights, and dictate a policy to them, is to misunderstand the whole position of the League, and if ever any British representative attempts to play that role in Geneva he will have the reprobation of the whole League,
  I want to state the case, not as an advocate of any particular view but quite objectively as it appeared to one side and the other. I can do it the more easily

  1075
  because, as often happens, the position of Great Britain was detached from the extreme view of both parties, and she seemed once more in the position, perhaps, to play her accustomed part of moderator and conciliator. What was the view of the conflicting parties? On the one hand, Germany said, "It never entered our mind that any change was contemplated in the Council at this moment, except the addition of a permanent seat for ourselves. No hint of that was given to us during our discussions at Locarno. If you had that in mind, you ought to have told us. As you did not tell us, and as it never occurred to us to suppose that there was such a prospect, we based our whole case for the Locarno policy and, above all, for entering into the League, among our own people upon the assumption that the Council would remain unchanged and be unchanged at the moment we entered, and we cannot now alter what was the basis of our whole domestic campaign."
  5.0 p.m.
  I hope, and I think I have stated the German point of view fairly. I want to state the point of view of other countries equally fairly. Let me take first the point of view of Brazil. It is hardly necessary for me to say that I am not a defender of the position which Brazil took. I am not an apologist for her, nor can I for one moment say she acted in her own best interests or with due regard to the greater international interests involved. But I want to state her point of view. It was assumed by us all that all nations represented on the Council had sent similar replies to the German inquiry, which was made on 24th September, 1924, as to whether she could count upon a permanent seat in the League and on proportionate and suitable representation in the League organs, and as to certain matters arising out of Article 16 and other Articles in the Covenant. I believe every Power but one said that they would be happy to support Germany's admission to a permanent seat on the Council, but Brazil sent an entirely different reply. She, indeed, indicated that she was willing to see Germany a member, but she gave no promise, and she expressly said that this was not a matter to be treated between Government and Government but a matter to be decided in the
  1076
  League itself at Geneva, as the result of discussions there with due regard to international law and the spirit of the League, and some other large general considerations.
  The terms of that communication were, I believe, unknown to any Government except the Brazilian Government which sent it and the German Government which received it until others of us heard them read out at Geneva. Might not that answer have put Germany on her guard? Ought not that answer to have put Germany on her guard? At least it was the contention of Brazil that she had served Germany with proper notice, then and there, that Brazil's own claim would be brought to discussion at Geneva at the same time. I will try to state equally as fairly as Brazil's point of view, the point of view of France and other countries. France in her reply said that she was ready to support Germany's claim to a permanent seat on the Council, and her claim to proportional representation in the other organs of the League, like the Secretariat. But she continued:
  " As to the other considerations developed in the Memorandum of the German Government, Germany's request for admission cannot be receivable unless it carries with it neither conditions nor reserves, nor additions."
  In the answer which our Government sent there was a similar phrase. Perhaps I had better quote the exact words. After in the same way agreeing that we would support Germany's claim to a seat in the Council and a place in the Secretariat, the right hon. Gentleman, then Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister said:
  " I find some difficulty, however, in replying to the other three points raised in your Memorandum. The German Government will doubtless realise that they can only expect the Assembly to vote by the necessary two-thirds majority for the admission of Germany if that country applies on the-same footing as other Powers and in conformity with the terms of the Covenant. The latter contains no provision for an applicant being allowed to claim admission to the League on special conditions or with special reservations."
  I make no charge of bad faith against Germany, I make no charge of any kind against Germany, but I say that there is no ground for a charge of bad faith against anybody else. The fact of the matter is that the Germans were not

  1077
  thinking of this particular point. They did not offer to enter without conditions. They put forward the only conditions which then seemed to them important, and when the Powers had answered accepting the proposals for a permanent seat and rejecting all other conditions, they believed that no other conditions were in the German mind. That is what I mean by saying that it was a misunderstanding, and there was very nearly a quarrel. Again, when the German Government, after these replies had been received from the Powers, addressed the Council itself, the Council replied in similar terms rejecting the conditions. The Council did not mention the condition that there should be no change in the Council, for that condition had not been put forward;. but they rejected all conditions extraneous to the one that Germany should have her seat in the Council and her proper position in the Secretariat.
  Again, the subject of the conditions on which Germany would enter the League was raised, as the right hon. Gentleman said, and debated for long hours at Locarno. Never once was it suggested or hinted that Germany attached any importance at that moment to her entry being sole and unaccompanied by any other Power. If it had been the matter would have been cleared up at once, and I have no doubt we should have reached an agreement. Neither one side nor the other was thinking of that matter at that time, and whilst it had not occurred to the Germans as a possibility, they assumed it was an impossibility, the Allies, in ruling out all conditions except the one in which they specifically accepted, assumed that no new subject of difference could arise to mar the process of Germany's entry.
  We all regret it, I blame no one. That was the state of facts, and we had to deal with it as best we might. In the face of this letter from Brazil, and the one from Spain, which was, I believe, a letter very much in the terms of the French reply, how, in the face of that, could I say, "You have no right to have your claim discussed. You have no right even to put your reasons for urging it before the League." To do that would have been preposterous arrogance even on the part of so great a Power as that which I had the honour of representing. How could I hold binding on them con
  1078
  ditions of which they had no notice? And when they had rejected all the conditions of which they had notice, how could I say, "Ah, it was implied that there was another condition," which would be produced at the proper time. It was not practical politics, and anyone who thinks that a single word from the British representative could have imposed that silence and that reticence on all the other Powers concerned, greatly misunderstands the atmosphere of Geneva.
  Even then, even with this unhappy misunderstanding, I do not doubt that if we could have met at once, before public opinion had taken charge in so many countries, we could have reached an agreement with much less difficulty, and probably at a far lower cost. Unfortunately, the controversy became public. For the method in which the Polish claim was presented in certain quarters I can have nothing but reprobation. I need not say that I agree with every word of the tribute which the right hon. Gentleman paid, and which I was glad to hear, to the attitude of the Polish representative at Geneva. The honours at Geneva were shared by the Poles, the Germans, the Swedes, and the Czechs. The Poles and the Germans, whose case was peculiarly the subject of controversy, distinguished themselves by the dignity and reticence of their representatives under most trying conditions and won the admiration and sympathy of us all. If we could have met at once and talked the matter out, I think we could without great difficulty have come to an understanding. Last Sunday, trying to rest my mind a little, I was turning over Colonel House's papers, and I came on this sentence:
  " It would be better if we could get what we are after without taking such a positive-stand in public. It is the publicity of these things that always does harm, and to which they object."
  " They," in that case, were more particularly ourselves. That was the trouble, the publicity that was given to these discussions, the emphasising in each country of its own national point of view, the stirring up of national pride, and raising a point of honour. It is for that reason that I pleaded with this House, as I pleaded with the representatives of other Governments, that all of us should do what we could to go there with;

  1079
  sufficient liberty to reconcile our differences, and not so tied to opposite standpoints that, even before we got there, our efforts would be condemned to futility and failure.
  Mr. THURTLE: What about the Birmingham speech?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: That was the whole object of the Birmingham speech. My object was to show that the Polish claim or the Spanish claim were not, as they were being represented, a mere afterthought to provide a counterpoise to Germany, but to say that they were claims which ought to be discussed on their merits, and which the Council ought to hear before we all definitely took our position. It was not to prejudge in favour of this claim or that, but to secure that we should not be so fixed to contradictory positions that no reconciliation would be possible. May I add that, unless in future the nations who are members of the League, and, above all, the nations represented on the Council, are prepared to take that attitude, the League cannot work; its whole purpose will be destroyed. If we could always settle things from nation to nation, from capital to capital, the League would not have been necessary. Because the differences are so shouted across the frontier as to be sometimes irreconcilable, the machinery of the League has been devised to find a solution, and the machinery of the League requires a certain freedom of play and action if it is to work effectively for that purpose. Of course I never pretended, when I pleaded for a free hand, that I was to go there without directions from, or without the control of, my own Government, or that I or my Government could neglect British public opinion. What I wanted was that we should not all arrive there with our position publicly taken and with no possibility of reconciliation. I can, however, now tell the House what my actual instructions were, and 1 will read them:
  " Subject to my discretion to make the best arrangements I could, in accordance with the development of the situation, our policy should be based on the following principles:
  " No change in the Council can be admitted which would have the effect of preventing or delaying the entry of Germany. It would be best that Germany should, as a member of the Council, have
  1080
  full responsibility for any further change in the Council beyond her own admission.
  " The rule that only Great Powers should be permanent members of the Council should, in principle, be maintained. Spain is in a special position, and may require exceptional treatment.
  " Neither Poland nor Brazil should be made permanent members at present, but Poland should be given a non-permanent seat as soon as possible."
  Those were the instructions which were given to me and which, I need scarcely say, I fully concurred in.
  Lieut, - Commander KEN WORTHY: What does "as soon as possible" mean?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAINIt means as soon as possible.
  Lieut. - Commander KENiWOiRTHY: Will that be the next Assembly?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Those, I say, wore my instructions. How did I carry them out? I saw M. Briand in Paris. I told him what my instructions were. I said that I could give no vote which would impede Germany's entry into the League; that I could under no circumstances support a permanent seat for Poland at the present time, though we would gladly see her admitted to a temporary seat. I saw the Spanish Ambassador, on the train, as a matter of fact, and I at once told him, as I had told M. Briand, in order that neither Spain nor France should make a mistake in policy because they misunderstood the British position—I told the Spanish Ambassador, who represents Spain so ably on the League, that I could give him no hope, however much I may have wished to do so, if voting for him would impede the entry of Germany, and that if the candidature of Spain were put forward under those conditions, not only would I not vote for Spain, but I would vote against her.
  On the day of my arrival at Geneva I told Count Skrzynsky that important part of my instructions which concerned him. I told him that I should oppose, as well as others, the claim of Poland at that sitting to a permanent seat, though I should be glad if Poland could be accorded a temporary seat. Those parties all knew, before we entered into our discussion at Geneva, the exact attitude of this Government, and took their course with that knowledge. It was

  1081
  hardly necessary to tell the Germans that, because this House had made it abundantly plain. But I did a little later tell the Germans exactly how I stood. Our first efforts at conciliation had broken down, and I remember saying to Dr. Luther and Herr Stresemann: "You know my position as well as I know it myself. I am in your pocket. What I ask you is, are these the best conditions which will secure the entry of Germany, and is this the wisest policy and the one most in Germany's interest? "
  You may talk about a free hand. Everybody knew, when they read the Debate, what the limitations imposed on me were, and that I. went there with no freedom, except the freedom in the governing sentence of my instructions, that I was to use my discretion in any case of doubt. That, of course, involved consultation with my colleagues in the Cabinet at home as to the particular course, if some particular and unexpected solution appeared to offer a chance of success. My first act when I got to Geneva was in accordance with the suggestion which I had made more than a fortnight before, which had been adopted and repeated to me by the German Government on the very day of our last Debate here, to convoke the Locarno Powers to a discussion. We. sought long and earnestly for a solution among ourselves. We failed to find one without other help. If it had not been for our Allies, there would have been indeed a catastrophe for Europe and for the prospects of the world's peace.
  We reported our conversations to the Council, and it was out, of those Council discussions that there arose spontaneously the Swedish offer to resign her seat in older to get over the difficulty. There was no pressure put by anyone on Sweden to take that course. There had been suggestions from the side of the Locarno Powers that one of them might resign in older to make room for Poland, but it was not from us that that suggestion, that Sweden should retire, did come, nor would we have ever made such a proposition to them. When, thanks to the action of Sweden and Czechoslovakia, the difficulties among the Locarno Powers had been removed, I hoped that all would go well. I confess that I did not anticipate that when all others were agreed
  1082
  Brazil, far removed from the dangers which we were seeking to avert from Europe, would step in in behalf of a claim individual to herself, to prevent the consummation of the universal desire. But when that became an imminent danger, what did we do? M. Briand was with me. I proposed to him that he and I should go across at once and consult with Dr. Luther and Herr Stresemann, and ask them what they thought best to be done in the circumstances. We made an appointment at the earliest hour convenient to the Germans. We there and then settled with them our subsequent procedure, and the procedure which was followed was the result of our conversation and was in accordance with their wishes.
  There is one point which I have reserved to the last. Underlying the right hon. Gentleman's speech is the charge of secrecy. It is the charge that we conducted in private discussions that ought to have been conducted in public and would have been more fruitfully conducted in public. It is a very natural view to take, but it overlooks one not unimportant feature of the problem. It takes no account of German feeling. While the difference was among the Locarno Powers, we could not discuss that with the Germans in Council, because they were not members of the Council. We must discuss it outside and with them. When, later, that had been overcome, and when Brazil maintained her attitude, when the Brazilian Ambassador at last informed us that his instructions were final and irrevocable, and that he was precluded from even asking for their reconsideration, what else could we have done but that which we did?
  I always held that if these conversations broke down, each of us must sooner or later assume his responsibility in public and be prepared to defend his action, That was done at the Assembly. You may ask, "Why did not the Council meet in public and discuss it earlier?" I am not sure that hon. Gentleman are aware of the Constitution of the League of Nations or the provisions of the Covenant. The Assembly do not consider a proposal to attribute a permanent seat to anyone or add a permanent seat to the Council, except on a proposition emanating from the Council and naming

  1083
  the country for which the permanent seat is intended. It is not true to say, it is a mistake to suppose, as has been so widely supposed, that the agenda of this Conference, of this Assembly, was merely the entry of Germany into the League. The first Order on the Paper was the request of Germany for admission to the League. The second Order was the amendment of Article 4 of the Covenant. It could be put in no other way. It had to be put, the amendment of Article 4, which limited the number of permanent seats on the Council.
  Observe the position in which we were put. Germany had made it clear that her application to the League was dependent upon her receiving a permanent scat when she entered. We went through the preliminaries in the first Commission, which did me the honour to make me President and Reporter. We found that the German request was acceptable, and we recommended it for acceptance. In ordinary circumstances, if it had been the case of Hungary or Bulgaria or Austria, which similarly joined but in whose case no one talked of any conditions, I should have gone to the Tribunal to make that Report and to ask the Assembly by adopting it to admit Germany. But Germany, once in, could not have got out in less than two years, by the provisions of the Covenant. I should have been accused at once, and rightly accused, of trapping Germany into the League, unless I could have the assurance that when I made the motion which made her a member of the League, her request for a permanent seat would be automatically and consequentially granted.
  It was the endeavour to get that assurance which delayed the proceedings of the Council. When it was evident that we could not get it, you may still say, and some people do say, that the Council should have been summoned to meet publicly, that the proposition should have been put before it and any other proposition, and that each of the Powers represented should have voted. I do not dwell upon the technical objections which were raised by the authorities of the League to that procedure, but I say, and I say with knowledge, that that procedure would not have been acceptable to Ger
  1084
  many. If you had had these public discussions continued day after day of the German claims and the others, I ask you whether you think a proud nation, a great nation, a sensitive nation, would have continued to sit and wait while these public discussions went on? I speak with authority when I say that if we had invited the Council to take a vote, and if that vote had been adverse, it would have been impossible, in face of what they would have felt to be a rebuff, to maintain the application of Germany. We chose, therefore, another course. Brazil was called to the tribune of the Assembly to state publicly her attitude. I then explained, what was obvious, that I could not make the Motion which I had desired to make, and M. Briand followed me with a Motion which gave the whole Assembly the opportunity to express its regret at the obstacle which had arisen, and its confident hope that this obstacle and all other obstacles would be removed in September.
  I went to Geneva to face three great dangers. The first was that the entry of Germany should be made under conditions which caused a breach in the work of reconciliation begun at Locarno and impeded its continuance and development. The second was that the entry of Germany should be impeded by differences between the Locarno Powers. Both these dangers were averted by common agreement. The Germans and ourselves hold fast to Locarno—so warmly welcomed by my right hon. Friend when its glamour was fresh and a little less warmly approved by him to-day. If he thinks it of less importance, if he thinks its spirit is gone, he will find no confirmation of that view in the utterances of the German Government or the French Government or the Polish Government or this Government. We are resolved to maintain the agreement and maintain its spirit. The danger that that newly begun work of reconciliation should be interrupted or broken down has been averted. The very fact that this newly made Locarno accord was so soon submitted to so great a strain and yet withstood it, shows how firmly and how wisely it had been laid, and instead of being a cause for discouragement should authorise us to have greater hope and confidence in its future development.
  The last danger was this. One Power interposed her veto, one Power

  1085
  who holds her seat by election from the Assembly, and I cannot think that she served either her own interest or the claim which she wished to put forth, when she thus set herself counter to the wishes and hopes of every other member of the Council and every member of the Assembly. But the greater danger was averted. The work of reconciliation between the enemies of yesterday goes on. The spirit of Locarno, whatever you may say of it, persists and inspires the policy of the seven nations who signed the Treaties.
  Sir, I have done. The House knows what my mission was. They know how I sought to carry it out. The decision is in their hands. If it goes against me, I shall neither complain nor repine. I shall wait for a moment of calmer judgment and truer historical perspective and, in my retirement, I shall have some consolation. I have held this high office for almost exactly fifteen months. I found, when I entered upon my duties, France and Great Britain still suspicious and estranged, the work of reconciliation with Germany barely commenced and that in only one corner of the field of our international relations. My consolation will be that I leave things better than I found them. I have restored the old confidence and intimacy between the French and British Governments, and upon this basis we have built broad and deep the foundations of our common reconcilation with Germany. We have secured the co-operation of Italy, which stands as the other guarantor of the great Pact of Western peace. If these were to be my last words as Foreign Secretary, I would add that the influence of Great Britain stands higher than it has stood at any time since the War. While I have been spokesman of my country in foreign relations, no man with whom I have dealt in that capacity has questioned the honesty of our policy or doubted our good faith and our word.
  Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I am very much inclined to allow the laurels which the right hon. Gentleman has just placed upon his own head to remain without question from me. If he imagines that the name and influence of Great Britain just now is higher, as he said, or if he would be a little more modest and say it is even equal to what it was a any time since the War, the most
  1086
  charitable thing I can say about it is that he evidently reads no newspapers and does not know the opinions of other nations. To-day we have a great Debate on high policy which affects not only the honour of this country but the prospects of peace and war in Europe and the very existence of the League of Nations itself, and the chief organ of public opinion in this country the "Times" shows its great approval of the Foreign Secretary who has done so much to raise the name of this country, so much to establish the League of Nations, so much to secure peace by—instead of doing what would be the proper and natural thing and devoting its first leading article to the discussion of the issues before us this afternoon — very conveniently and equally discreetly, writing about London University. [HON. MEMBERS:" Special article! "] It publishes a special article for which it takes no responsibility and that special article is far more damaging to the attitude of the Government at Geneva than it is praising. I wondered as I listened to the right hon. Gentleman, whether he had been rightly reported at Geneva when he said a great tragedy had taken place. I never heard a more self-complacent speech in all my life. One would have thought from beginning to end that the right hon. Gentleman was doing something which was not ending in failure. Really the position he takes up draws a little too liberally upon our generosity. I was prepared either to precede him or come after him. I was prepared either to state the case before he replied, or to re-state it after he had sat down, but to-day he seemed to show the same unwillingness to make up his mind that he did at Geneva because, although he knew perfectly well that this was the case he could not even make up his mind whether he would follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) or whether he was going to allow me to follow my right, hon. Friend.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the first message I had from him was that he desired to follow me and he asked me if I would fall in with that arrangement. I said I would let him know in the course of the Debate.
  Mr. MacDONALD: I am afraid the information which has just been given is

  1087
  equal to the information which was given previously. It was the right hon. Gentleman who approached me and asked me what I would prefer to do. I said I was willing to do either, but I was quite willing to follow him. Then when I asked, later on, what was to be the arrangement I was told the right hon. Gentleman could not make up his mind, and until the moment he got up I did not know what he was going to do. What I want to point out is this, that the statement, the explanation, made by the right hon. Gentleman, point after point, is so detached from what has been going on at Geneva and from discussions in every newspaper of the effect of Geneva, that unless we knew by our Order Paper and by shots that went across the Floor from both sides, we should think he was talking about something else altogether. What we want to do is to go back and see where this failure arose, how it happened, and why.
  In one of these many attempts that he made to defend himself, he described with a great deal of pride his conversation with M. Briand. What did he say? He was under the impression that he was clearing the field. He was not engaging in a friendly conversation between man and man, but in a conversation which was to make it perfectly clear to M. Briand that certain things could be done and that certain things could not be done. We know that these conversations that have got muffed and blunted edges are the very worst forms of commitments. What did he say? He said he made it perfectly clear that he was going to give no vote for impeding the entrance of Germany into the League. What does that mean? The Resolution was not put down in the form of a resolution in favour of voting for or against impeding Germany. That was not the question. If that had been how it had been put, it would have been put as an abstract resolution and a resolution declaring intentions, and the right hon. Gentleman's position would have been above reproach, but that was not what he was facing. He was facing an extraordinarily intricate entanglement of claims and counterclaims, of advances, and suggestions, and proposals, and wire pullings, and it was with reference to them that he had to take up his position, because it was only
  1088
  in reference to them that he could carry out his policy, which he declared was quite clear in his mind, that he was not going to impede the entry of Germany into the League of Nations.
  Let us get to his second point. He says he was in favour of a permanent seat for Spain, but not in favour of a permanent seat for Poland, or he put it that way once, but in the positive form a minute afterwards: "I was in favour of giving Poland a temporary seat." What is the meaning of that? Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean to come to this House and say that that simple statement of the situation tells us all that was happening? Of course, it is not all that was happening. What was involved in these two statements was not only the two statements themselves, a permanent seat for Spain and a temporary seat for Poland, but there was a whole series of moves on the League of Nations chess board that was involved in these two moves, and those moves composed their policy, and the policy was a policy of which this country. according to the Prime Minister's speech, was not in favour. It was a policy which was created for the purpose of readjusting balances. of readjusting representation, of readjusting authority, of readjusting the relative and comparative weights on certain sides of the League of Nations, and, in so far as the Prime Minister made anything clear to us in the last Debate he made this clear, that he was not in favour of that. He took for granted that what the Council of the League had to do and what the Assembly had to do was to bring Germany in, and yet, apparently, quite innocently, the Foreign Secretary goes and commits himself to two moves that in their result and in their effective action destroy the pledge that the Prime Minister gave to this House on the last occasion.
  The Foreign Secretary is always telling us that he is in favour of continuity of foreign policy. Well, I wish he had been —perhaps things would have been better if he had—but he cannot use that argument in favour of his attitude on Spain. Why does he not go back to 1924? There has been a Government since 1921 and 1922. He knows perfectly well that the attitude of Spain, exactly the same as the attitude of Brazil the other day, only in

  1089
  a smaller matter, refusing to sanction certain suggested changes in the constitution, was prompted by the fact that she then wanted a permanent seat on the Council. Spain was not promised it. Spain was informed that our hands were free. The right hon. Gentleman may say —I do not object at all, not the least— "I go back to 1921," but in doing that he cannot say "because I am in favour of the continuity of foreign policy." He can stand as he likes, but he cannot stand on that.
  What was the effect of this? It was perfectly evident after Locarno—I do not know, but it is sometimes said at Locarno; I rather gathered by the way that the right hon. Gentleman put it that so far as he is informed it was after Lecarno—but it is said that after Locarno or during Locarno there were certain Locarno Powers signing this Pact with Germany who had a reservation, who did not regard this Pact as the precious thing that it was supposed to be but said: "If and when and as soon as this Pact is signed, we must make certain changes in the League of Nations to accommodate our national policy to our position in the League of Nations." That happened either at Locarno or after Locarno, and the question, I repeat, came to this: How is it going to be arranged? The right hon. Gentleman had a conversation, and he boasted that he did not say anything else. It is all very well. Of course, he was away seven weeks, and not only that, but I will say something which he could not very well have said. He was not only away seven weeks, but the right hon. Gentleman was suffering from a very severe attack, which ought to draw from us, as it does, every consideration. Let us give him all that he can ask of sympathy, of consideration, and of fair play. We will give him all that, but will this House consider the position in which he was?
  He is coming back, and he goes to Paris. He has got Locarno in his hands, the signature of the Pact, the Agreement with Germany. It is no use not emphasising that, because that is a point that ought to be emphasised, that, here they had a gentlemen's Agreement with Germany, not merely covering the points that actually were signed and put down in black and white but the agreement that reasonable assumptions associated with the Agreement should be regarded
  1090
  by gentlemen as part of the Agreement. He says it was never raised at Locarno whether somebody else was going to get into the League. Was the opposite raised? He cannot exploit that without our turning round and asking if the opposite was raised. If he had been signing the Pact and had been in the position of Dr. Luther or Herr Stresemann, would he have assumed that, in accordance with that Agreement, it was possible that when Germany came to the door of the League they found that there were claimants there, that there were people demanding entrance supported by the large Powers that had signed the Pact, not raising their claims from the blue and on their own merits or demerits —not at all? If that had been the position, if they were there making new claims, Germany would have a perfect right to say: "That is not the Agreement," and with that in his mind, M. Briand, according to his statement, says: "Will you support this or that?" and he says: "I cannot say anything about it, but I must consult my Government, my Cabinet, on the subject."
  I notice that the right hon. Gentleman used a word three or four times with a very narrow and a very specific meaning. Did he select it of intention? He said. "I entered into no engagements." Did he express views? Did he indicate what his own mind was? I think we might have that, and if he had allowed me to speak first, I should have specifically put that question to him, quite apart from his own speech. We want to know. Did he express his views, and did he express them in such a way that M. Briand might feel himself justified in saying to the Poles that on the whole the British Government would support their claim? It has been said that, that is what happened. Now, then, the French policy was to get Poland in. The whole of the plan which was going to counterweight Locarno was going to be satisfied for the time being if Poland went in. Now, says the right hon. Gentleman, "I stood apart; I did not express any opinion, but I did say that we had committed ourselves to Spain, and I have no objection to Poland receiving a temporary seat." Can he imagine that he did not encourage Poland to demand a seat, even to demand a permanent seat.? Of course, they demanded a permanent seat for bargaining purposes.

  1091
  6.0 P.M.
  He does not seem to be aware that he was leaving the door open. It is not a question of England putting down a big foot. We are dealing with the real facts of the evolution of the situation, how they come inevitably and naturally. It was not a question of England's big foot. It was not a question of England acting as a dictator, but it was a question of England knowing its own mind. I have never found that if there is a certain thing that you are determined you ought not to do, unless you are forced to do it, that you do not want to do, that you believe if it is done is going to be for bad, then to say so is not hampering you in negotiations. But in keeping it back, and thereby deceiving the people with whom you are negotiating, because they do not understand you, they assume that if you talk in this way, "Well, my mind is not made up; my personal view is so-and-so, but I must get my Government to sanction it before it becomes official "—I say if you talk that way to people with whom you are negotiating, then you are deceiving them if you do not mean that the door really is open, and they are entitled to assume that your opinion is not a very strong one, and if they themselves are strong in their opinion, they will secure what they desire.
  This is exactly what is happening all the time, and this is the real explanation. The simile. as I say—and I repeat it, it is so important—of the big foot, and the tyrant and so on, is absolutely a false simile. The simile the House must keep in mind is that of two or three men negotiating an important point, and one man not showing his hand, but allowing his other two friends to judge his hand and he bluffing them all the time. That is not the way to get to a definite end and a specific and good conclusion in diplomatic undertakings. What was the result? The result was that when the right hon. Gentleman went to Geneva, he found that the object which his Prime Minister declared was the object of the Government, the admission of Germany into the League of Nations, had been so wrapped round about, was so entangled, by assumptions and false assumptions for which the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible, though he is responsible for them in the indirect sense that he never did the right thing
  1092
  to dispel them, so that when he got to Geneva the road was not clear, the German issue was not straightened out. It was wrapped round with an intense system of barbed wire which he tried to cut down.
  In the last Debate we had here, there was very considerable apprehension. Again, let us get at the substantial realities of the case. Hon. Members opposite know quite well that the majority of 100 in the last Division on this subject represented not merely the warnings which we wished to give on this subject to the House but the apprehensions they were feeling on the other side. Some hon. Members on the other side of the House spoke and explained their views and did not vote—the correct position for them to take up; I am not reflecting upon them at all. But everybody knows that the right hon. Gentleman's handling of affairs up to then did not give us a sense of security, that his speech had also failed to do the same thing, and that it was only the simple, straightforward statement of the Prime Minister who had not been into the business at all—I have read it again to refresh my memory; it is so delightful and beautiful a piece of refreshing, straightforward innocence, one of those soothing pieces of literature that I always like to take to bed with me to induce sleep in the half hour that precedes that happy event. There it is. The right hon. Gentleman, by making that statement, that brief, simple, decent sort of statement gave assurance where the right hon. Gentleman had given none, and the result of the combination, the positive influence of the Prime Minister against the negative influence of the Foreign Secretary, was to reduce the majority to 100.
  We were informed by the right hon. Gentleman then that he was only committed to Spain. When did he find himself committed to Poland? We were informed in that Debate that the right hon. Gentleman was not committed to Poland. He said he was in favour of it. Really, I am very doubtful about a breach of promise action taken on that very risky form of courtship.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: At any rate, the Polish representative has no intention of starting an action.
  Mr. MacDONALD: The Polish representative is a man of great self-respect.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: They are going to redeem the promise.
  Mr. MacDONALD; The right hon. Gentleman said he committed himself to Spain, but not to Poland. Now he says he did not encourage Poland. I do not know what the Polish representative says, but I know the Polish newspapers say they were encouraged by the attitude of the British Foreign Secretary to make their claim, and they put it forward as a grievance that the Foreign Secretary does not fulfil his promise. Now he explains that he did not give a promise, but only an unofficial promise, and not even that—he gave encouragement. He gave encouragement under the impression that that would not affect the situation of Poland, and his attitude when Germany applied for admission to the League of Nations' Council. He flew in the teeth of his Prime Minister's speech. He flew in the teeth of public opinion in this country. He said, "I believe I can handle it better." He was perfectly justified in saying that, provided he brought it off. He has not done so. It has resulted in the most lamentable failure that British diplomacy has had to face for a great many years. It is not merely a question of failure. Nobody can pull off things always, but when one fails, one can fail with the consciousness that he did his very Best to remove the causes of failure. The right hon. Gentleman did nothing of the kind. He helped to raise expectations that confused the German issue. He went from stage to stage, and at every point when it was possible for him to recover himself he did not do it.
  What is the position of affairs? The right hon. Gentleman first of all entertained the idea that others should be admitted to the Council of the League at the same time as Germany. He knew perfectly well that was not in the interest of this country. Let us put it perfectly bluntly. He knew perfectly well that the admission of further Powers at the present time to a permanent seat or to a temporary seat was not in the interest of this country. Moreover, he. knew it was not in the interest of the League, because the more one
  1094
  desires a, reformation of the League on its machinery side, the more one is impressed with the fact that a temporary change in order to meet a passing convenience is the very worst thing to do with the League, because it will stereotype all the evils. He must have known that. One clear thing arising out of that discussion—and it shows such a magnificent contrast—is the part of Mr. Unden. Mr. Unden, standing for the simple doctrine of the word, like the Prime Minister, braved all the bullying, all the influences, all the pressure, all the threats, and received at the end of the day a well-deserved tribute of the assembled nations in the League. He is supposed to be a new representative of the League, and he is. Everybody who knew the late Mr. Branting knows how he was inspired, how he was guided, and with whom he consulted, and knows perfectly well, that although Mr. Unden appears almost for the first time in the Council of the League, his hand has written many a wise paragraph, and his head has drafted many a wise resolution before he appeared there in person. We ought to pay our tribute to him for the magnificent way that he stood for the spirit, of the League of Nations and faced all the difficulties he had to meet in consequence.
  That is the right hon. Gentleman's first share in the diplomacy which led to such bad results. The second is this. If we are not very careful we shall hear too much about Locarno. Locarno as a spirit and gesture is admirable. I described it once—and I venture to throw my mind back on it—as one of the best examples of Coucism that has been practised in Europe in this generation. From that point of view, Locarno was a great achievement; but the method of Locarno was fundamentally wrong. I know this is a case where a man who has to make a rapid decision seizes the opportunity, and does not bother very much about the methods for the time being. He takes the opportunity and does what he desires to do. But that method must not be applied further on. I remember perfectly well—I was on the Continent at the time—just immediately after the Locarno Treaty was signed, that the only newspapers which gave a reasoned consideration to the matter, which made some of us pause and wonder, were the

  1095
  newspapers published in France. One point that was made in those newspapers was—I think I am giving an accurate idea of what I read at the time: "The League of Nations; we cannot trust it; the securities are not good enough. Locarno re-establishes the old European Alliances." What was the justification for that? The justification was this, that however good the results may be—and I do not dispute them—we had already gone back. What happened was that a group of Powers, apart from the League and outside the League, met and came to an agreement, and part of that agreement was that the League of Nations should do a certain thing—a fatal blunder.
  I do not believe it was intrigue. I refuse to believe it was intrigue. It was just one of those blunders that sometimes occur, and nothing but a blunder; because what is the fact? Sweden, Brazil, Spain, Poland, either non-represented or temporary represented countries, having an effect upon the opinion of the represented countries. It was much worse than that; for what everyone feels is this: Is the League a self-governing body or not? Is the League a sort of kept mistress of a few Powers? Is it possible for a few Powers—it does not matter whether it is Great Britain, France or Germany, or Great Britain without France and without Germany; the principle is not affected by the status of the Powers at all; it is a principle which stands upon its own feet—is it going to be admitted that three or four Powers, met for the most beneficent purposes under Heaven, carrying out that purpose in the most effective way, can, by agreeing among themselves, secure what the decision of the League of Nations is going to be upon any particular thing? I cannot understand how the right hon Gentleman never saw that objection, so that instead of going from here to Geneva with that objection clearly in his own mind, and extricating himself from it, as he could quite easily have done, he goes on with his conferences, his bargains, all behind the scenes, and he then says: "How could we do this in public?" It was done in public, but it was not the right sort of publicity. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that he never made an agreement,
  1096
  suggestion, or proposal in private, but that the next morning, or the morning after, it was in the newspapers. What is the use of talking the way he does, or of saying that you can really now have great negotiations in private? The right hon. Gentleman knows that the best form of publicity is the direct publicity of the work of the Council and of the Assembly !
  The Foreign Secretary said that Germany would not have liked publicity. It would, have injured her feelings, and so on. I decline to believe that the leading Powers of Europe, the best men that the Parliaments could send to Geneva, have not the ingenuity, have not the good sense, have not the capacity to get these questions debated in public without any untoward consequences. The matter could have been safeguarded. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us: Did they safeguard anything about the Assembly and the League? The fact of the matter is that there is no reason whatever for the plea that has been made. Why, the Council as a Council had to wait day after day at Geneva. The Assembly as an Assembly had to wait day after day at Geneva while they went from hotel to hotel, while they bargained and bargained, until at last in despair, finding that the resignations of two nations that offered their resignations were only going to cause further trouble—no doubt about it—they seized upon the Brazil objection like a drowning man grasping at a straw, because they supposed that it enabled them to come back and say, "Locarno is untouched."
  There is one point I would like parenthetically to touch upon, and that is the attitude Brazil actually did take up. I believe that anybody reading the Brazilian letter, so far as it has been made public, would hold that it justified the description given of it. Anyone who reads that letter can see that Brazil used words which did justify the nation that received the letter assuming that, while it had certain things in its mind, in relation to the business that it was asked to pronounce upon, it could have no objection to follow the main clauses which have been made public. If that interpretation be wrong, then it is advisable that we should have the whole letter published. While we think, or some of us do, that Brazil has made a mistake, that Brazil used its power in

  1097
  mistake, I cannot understand how Brazil acted as it did unless there was an explanation which has not yet appeared. This Power, however strong and powerful it is—and hon. Members opposite questioned the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—who this State was and however powerful it may be, I do not believe for a moment that Brazil, standing alone, without any prompting, did what she did. But I. say this, that Brazil was perfectly entitled to say and to act as she did. Yes, it is all very well, but let us be very careful. Do not let us at the moment when we are very angry with Brazil, in the moment when we have a demonstration that the power given to every single State in the League of Nations may be abused, go on like foolish people and take that experience as a reason for changing the power of the League of Nations. Remember, if you do that, you have got Spain as well as Brazil—if you change the League from being a consultative Assembly in essence to be a sovereign State. Years ago from below the gangway in this House I raised that point, and did not get very much thanks from those who were in power at the time, because it was suggested that it would be foolish and most improper to suggest otherwise than that a State would use its power quite legitimately so far as the actual existence of the power was concerned.
  My third point—and I am afraid I have been led away from it—is that the private conferences which went on were degrading to the League and bringing it down to a series of pettifogging, small-minded kind of occasions. The running from hotel to hotel, and having talks after dinner—it was just exactly like one of those affairs in the Last, where one goes into an Egyptian or Oriental bazaar and over coffee and cigarettes haggles for a week over the price of a carpet. We do that all with good humour and in the right spirit, and with plenty of by-play. Here there was no good humour, but otherwise. There you have it. There you have this degradation of the League, and on account of this going on it is bound to lower the prestige of the League in the eyes of the world. Where do we stand? First of all, after the first whisper was made from Poland and Spain, the right hon. Gentleman should have said, "I will have none of it."
  1098
  Secondly, everyone knew what was going on, but it never, apparently, occurred to him to tell Germany, and Germany learned it from the newspapers. Then the right hon. Gentleman got his opportunity to extricate himself, with the consequence of a Debate here. Instead, however, of doing so, he goes back to Geneva and repeats this conception of British policy, and, just floating upon every current that the morning happens to make strong as a result of forces that have been in operation overnight.
  He got entangled in the machinery at Geneva, and most completely forgot the League procedure, taking his League diplomacy, taking everybody into consideration, separating himself into different categories, and beginning again to practise the old methods of diplomacy, haggling, bargaining, huckstering, and browbeating. He did not insist upon taking the counsel in the Council or the Assembly. During the whole of the negotiations he never had a clear view of his own objective. He was never guided by anything but the daily currents that arose independently of himself. When the Prime Minister finished his speech, to which I have already referred, by a very touching and very hopeful sentence, none of us knew what a terrible end there was to be. He said:
  " I am convinced that when they "
  that is, the Foreign Secretary and Lord Cecil—
  " return, the Members of this House who, perhaps, are inclined to be too suspicious and critical of their good faith and ability, will be the first to acknowledge once more that they have held high the honour of the country, and have built one more stone in the Temple of the Peace of Europe."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1926; col. 1698, Vol. 192.]
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I understand that cheer—the cheer of loyalty; they are standing by their Executive. The situation now is that this country occupies in Europe a very much lower position, so far as influence is concerned. It has almost got to this, that none is so poor as to do us reverence. [Laughter.] Well, one has only got to take up the French newspapers and to read the articles that appear from day to day in Paris. [An HON. MEMBER: "The newspapers are not at all representative of French public opinion."] Perhaps not, but that is the

  1099
  attitude of self-sufficiency—the attitude of always shutting one's eyes to things. What have we done at Geneva to increase our power and our authority? This nation has got itself mixed up in that diplomacy Which is hostile to the League of Nations itself. We have left the League of Nations, and all the elements that were gathering round the League of Nations, in confusion and in sadness. A cynicism is spreading over Europe that is new since the War. A feeling of hopelessness has grown up suddenly as the result of the Geneva failure that has a moral grip of an ugly character. Men and women who had begun to believe that at last we had discovered a means of ensuring peace are doubting to-day. Nations that were beginning to feel there was something more trustworthy than armaments as a security of peace are beginning to doubt it, and in the midst of this attempt to get them together and to bring organic unity into the councils of Europe and the world, the doings at Geneva have come as a disrupting, as a destroying, as an immoral influence. It is our duty to see to it that the negotiations to take place about next September are not vitiated by any agreements which may have been come to behind doors in Geneva the other day, but that the League of Nations shall be served by nations which have got the League of Nations' spirit and which are pursuing the League of Nations' diplomacy. Only in that way is Great Britain going to take the place it once held, and the League of Nations going to secure for itself the allegiance and the confidence of the nations of the world.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: I have listened with great interest to the speeches delivered in this very important discussion, and I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition felt a passing vexation that he had not spoken before my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. He had prepared an account of what took place in the negotiations at Geneva which was a work of imagination, and a work of imagination always sounds rather flat after the facts have been told. He gave, as he was assuredly most entitled to do, a lecture on the art of negotiation, because, of course, he is an expert negotiator. I am not referring to those negotiations with Russia when an hon. Member of
  1100
  his party, then Under - Secretary, rushed to and fro after dinner—I think it was after midnight, or even at two o'clock in the morning—carrying messages from one person to another very much as, I gather the right hon. Gentleman thinks, happened in Geneva. I am not very specially thinking of that. Rather, I am thinking of how the various disagreements in the Labour party are adjusted. We now know, and it is very interesting. It is done by the avoidance of bluff, by never exciting hopes by half-concessions, by always telling everybody quite frankly from the outset what you are going to do and what you are not going to do. We hear the method, and we see the result. If the right hon. Gentleman sticks to his plan, then, judging by results, I am not sure that the prize will not be given to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary—at any rate if the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is the only competitor at the show at which the prizes are given.
  My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary explained with most admirable candour, and in the most interesting way, exactly what had taken place. The criticism made both before his speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), and after his speech by the Leader of the Opposition, concentrated entirely upon what is supposed to have passed in respect to Poland and the position of Poland and the League. In an interruption, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said he was concerned rather about Spain, but that was not actually the drift of his argument or the argument in his speech. He spoke almost entirely about Poland, and dwelt on the evil conduct of Poland, and how badly Poland has behaved about Vilna. I do not know whether his dwelling on the episode of Vilna was animated a little by the desire which is sometimes manifested by ladies to discuss the past of another lady and, by professing to find no fault, to draw out those old stories against her. He spoke of the dear League, and how good it was, and how many achievements it had to its credit, and yet there was this episode of Vilna, which perhaps diminished its credit.
  I am, myself, looking broadly at what has happened at Geneva. All these

  1101
  criticisms that centre around the position of Poland and the position of Spain, and what passed between my right hon. Friend and M. Briand at Paris, seem to take no amount of the two great capital features in what has happened. In the first place, if you are going to conciliate people, you must do it by making a reasonable effort to meet their wishes. It was my right hon. Friend's business to consult everybody concerned. In the second place, you cannot hope to conduct negotiations in future if what passes in private conversation is to be the subject of minute Parliamentary scrutiny afterwards. These private conversations are distinctly valuable; they oil the wheels of more formal diplomacy. But if everything that is said in private conversation is afterwards to be brought up as if it were a treaty, sealed, signed and delivered, then, I am quite sure, they will be found to be impossible, and a great deal of the good that is done by them will be hindered. Above all, no account has been taken of the plain fact that the settlement at Geneva broke down, not upon what concerned Poland or Spain, but about what concerned Brazil. My right hon. Friend was entirely successful in smoothing over whatever other difficulties there were in his path. The only point on which ultimate failure arose was in respect to Brazil, but it is not even suggested that any assurances were given, or statements made, at Paris or anywhere else, about Brazil.
  I am mainly concerned with what has boon said by several, speakers on the aspect of how far what has taken place at Geneva throws discredit on the League, or how far the policy of my right hon. Friend is inconsistent with the well-being of the League. I believe there is a great misconception hanging round the League of Nations. Indeed, it was manifest in something that fell from the Leader of the Opposition. The League of Nations is constantly represented, both by its opponents and by its friends, as resting purely and simply on what are called idealist considerations, that is, considerations drawn from moral and altruistic principles, humanitarian or religious, which raise it above the ordinary and old-fashioned methods by which the disputes of nations were adjusted. I do not deny that there are such considerations at work, and they may have great value, but
  1102
  it must be remembered that those considerations were always at work in old days and yet, by themselves, they were ineffectual to maintain peace, and that what is new, what is different as compared with before the war, is not any new moral element but a material and practical element, that is, the increasing mutual dependence of all the great civilised countries upon one another. That is what makes the League of Nations so much more possible and so much more powerful than any previous organisation for maintaining the peace of the world.
  It is also supposed that the League of Nations exists—or language is used as though it were supposed—to put everything right in every direction, for the purpose of doing justice between nations, and, in short, fulfilling the functions of a super State, supervising and correcting all the States in the world. The League is nothing of the kind. As the right hon. Gentleman himself said a little later, the League is a consultative body of Sovereign States, amongst other things, and you must have, even after dinner, all these things which are thought to be so unworthy—these private discussions, this log-rolling and wire-pulling and all the rest of it, because that is the only way of influencing nations which are perfectly independent and can be influenced only by persuasion. Sometimes public discussion is useful and sometimes private negotiation, either method being suited to particular circumstances; but the essence of the thing to remember is that if these are all Sovereign States, if they are bound together only by the common mutual interests that hold them together, you cannot dictate, you cannot lay it down, you cannot "put your foot down"—a phrase which has been used—to force any particular Sovereign State to behave reasonably or wisely. You are obliged to accept the basis of persuasion, and persuasion is only successful by mutual conciliation.
  The League also exists for a purpose of a very limited kind. Its first purpose is conducting the common business of the world that arises in matters of health, morals and conditions of labour, and also the maintenance of peace, and that is the great purpose. The supreme object of the League being the maintenance of peace, I think it can only he said to have failed if it fails to maintain peace, and

  1103
  any particular episode must be judged as to whether it makes for the maintenance of peace or not. Personally, I see nothing which has happened at Geneva which is not encouraging from the point of view of the maintenance of peace, and, so far from any harm having been done to the cause of peace, the discussions seem to have brought Germany and France into a rather more friendly position than they were at the beginning.
  The Leader of the Opposition said that alliances or pacts such as were made at Locarno are alien to the spirit of the League, but that could only be so if they were dangerous to the cause of peace. It is true that there might be alliances quite contrary to the spirit of the League, but they would only be those which group Powers together on the lines of a possible war. If there were any signs that the Powers were going one into one camp and another into another camp in order to make alliances subversive of the purpose for which the League was designed, then there might be something to be said for such a criticism. But the Locarno pact far from being hostile to the purpose for which the League exists it is faithfully carrying out its object of trying to maintain peace amongst the communities of the civilised world. Science, transport, finance, commerce, and industry have linked together the peoples of the world so closely that now they cannot fight with one another or be at issue without doing harm to all. It is a plain fact, and not a visionary dream, that there cannot be hostility between the civilised nations of the world without all of them suffering. Whatever influence has the effect of making nations realise the truth, and which puts forward the purposes for which the League exists must tend to bring the nations of the world to a perpetual bond of peace.
  What has happened at Geneva shows no disloyalty or shrinking back from those ideals. What was the dispute about? It was simply a question of who was to sit upon the Council of the League. So far from that being a sign of decay surely it is the highest tribute that could be paid to its importance. Who wants to sit on the council of a dying body? Perhaps I am wrong because there are people who want to lead the Liberal party even now. The complaint made in regard to Geneva is in regard to the machinery of
  1104
  the League as to who is to sit on the Council, and who is to have a permanent seat, and I think that fact shows its vitality, and demonstrates that at any rate some prestige attaches to a seat on the Council. It seems to me that the League is doing very well.
  There is an interesting precedent, and perhaps it will not bore the House if I give it. It is to be found in the constitution which existed for a long time in the United Provinces of Holland, which contained an inconvenient provision for an absolute veto. It contained this very peculiar feature that all the seven Provinces of Holland had to agree to every act of the Confederation, and every township in each Province had to agree to get the consent of that Province. It happened sometimes in one case that although six out of the seven Provinces agreed, the Province of Holland did not agree because the town of Amsterdam alone of the townships of Holland was in opposition. Nevertheless the Confederation existed for more than 200 years, and it is an example of how with a little good will you can make even the most inconvenient politics work. In regard to this refusal of citizenship representatives of all the other consenting bodies used to go and remain in the town which refused its consent, and were entertained at the expense of the town until that town gave its consent. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend is willing to form an expedition to go to Rio Janeiro in order to see if it produces the same effect. You can work any constitution with a little good will, but one with a veto is very difficult to work. Therefore, we must expect sometimes that there will be disappointments and apparent want of success, and if the League depended on nothing but diplomatic success and journalistic triumphs I should not hope for much from it. We do not base the success of the League on its aspirations or on idealistic considerations however valuable they may be as an addition to its strength, but we base its success on the plain practical common sense of the world.
  I feel persuaded that the League of Nations will go on in the future as in the past as the maintainer of the peace of the world, and that everything that has happened at Geneva or in the previous history of the League goes to show that really it does operate effectively in

  1105
  its main purpose of maintaining European peace. At any rate, it succeeds in drawing all these countries closer together in a combination of common interests, and that is its real underlying principle. I think we may look forward in future discussions to overcoming the trifling setbacks which have occurred at Geneva, because the tendency of things is towards a common agreement. Mr. Gladstone said in another connection, "The flowing tide is with us." I think we may say the same thing of the League of Nations, which is drawing the nations of Europe together, and no one can argue that the Locarno Treaty is hostile or destructive of the common good. I think we owe a debt of gratitude to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary both for what he did at Geneva and Locarno, and, if I may say so, with respect for the manly and convincing candour with which he has defended his policy and placed it before the House.
  Captain EDEN: The House, I am sure, will be very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down for the very refreshing clarity he has brought to bear upon this Debate, and he has done so with that brilliancy which is always associated with him. I think the Noble Lord has succeeded in placing his finger on the truth of the position. I only want for a few moments to try to put before the House a reply to one or two of the criticisms which have been made in this Debate. After listening to the speeches made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and the Leader of the Opposition, I find a very real difficulty in discovering exactly what was the thread of their criticisms. We heard a certain number of innuendoes, and we had a very generous measure of newspaper quotations, but precisely formulated charges have been almost as rare as newspaper quotations have been abundant. But the main criticism would seem to be this. That is before Geneva or at Geneva or at both there had been on the part of this country some hesitation about declaring our policy and in making it plain to the whole world. It has been said that we should have put our foot down and it is only right that we should endeavour to see where that policy which has so many advocates
  1106
  in this House would have led us. It is no good indulging in general arguments. If we had put our foot down in this matter as has been suggested, then it is perfectly clear we should have been going to Geneva not only to secure the entry of Germany, because that was known to be the intention of the Government, but also to blackball any other candidate under any circumstances whatever. That is the only logical effect of putting your foot down. That I agree was a possible course to pursue, but it would have been a very arrogant and dictatorial course and I ask hon. Members to consider whether it is likely that such a policy would have succeeded in an assembly where unanimity is essential.
  7.0.P.M
  When you issue an edict of any kind you soon reach a position from which it is very difficult to withdraw without injury to your prestige. Two can play at blackballing, and they usually do, and sometimes more than two. I think every hon. Member of this House feels a sense of gratitude for the very noble gesture which Sweden made. But Sweden at the outset pursued a policy which it has been said this country should have pursued. She issued an edict, but is there any reason to suppose that if we had issued an edict it would have been any more effective with regard to Brazil. Had we issued such an edict might not some other State have taken the same line of action as Brazil, and that other State, perhaps even a European State, have added its veto? It is impossible for this country to go to Geneva with a declared and immovable edict. It is absolutely contrary to the whole purpose for which the Council of the League exists. What is the use of having a Council if everybody issues an edict before they get to it? The purpose of the Council is to conciliate. I would suggest to the House that we could not have adopted that attitude in the face of our known desires. We could say, and we did say, "Our first object is to get Germany into the League." That was said over and over again, but we could not shut the door to any possible secondary eventuality. My right hon. Friend could not take the agenda of the League and cut out what he liked or circumscribe and limit it.

  1107
  He could not prevent a subject being raised. This country could not say "Thou shalt not" in face of the obvious right of every member of the Council to raise the subject of membership which had been before every meeting of the Council. I would suggest to the House that if such a policy had been followed we would have been running a real risk of endangering the whole fabric of the League.
  The last Member of this House who has any right to suggest that this policy of putting your foot down should be carried out is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). He has watched that policy and seen it fail. He carried out that policy himself year after year after the War. He was always putting his foot down. Did that result in the friendship of France, the confidence of Germany or in the goodwill of Turkey? To-day in the Near East it is a heritage of the right hon. Gentleman's policy which is making it so difficult for us to obtain the good-will of Turkey. He was always putting his foot down and always trying to take it up again. It is exactly what you cannot do. And as a result he was always putting his foot into it.
  I am convinced, as the Noble Lord has just said, that if the League is to function, and if the work of Locarno is not to be lost, there must be a policy of give and take on all sides. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was not quite so gloomy this evening as he was in the country on Saturday night. There, hardly any words could describe the state of gloom. The League seemed to be doomed, and we were living in an atmosphere of inspissated gloom. We were all to be mutes at the funeral while the right hon. Gentleman pronounced a funeral oration over my right hon. Friend. There was not so much melancholy this afternoon. I wonder whether that melancholy with all that mourning was justified? I am sure that it was not. The League has suffered a rebuff and a jolt to which any human institution is liable. For my part, I never expected in its earliest years the League would be called upon to give heavensent judgments to formulate impeccable decisions. That is to ask too much What I had hoped. of the League, and do hope
  1108
  still, is that its greatest benefit will be by the opportunities it will create for statesmen of different nationalities and opinion to meet and exchange those opinions.
  I suggest that if anybody expected the League to change human nature in a year or two, it was an extravagant expectation and one not fair to the League. We were all disappointed, naturally. They were not very palatable reading, those descriptions of some of the intrigues which took place. Surely, then, even here there was a lesson to be learned. You will not change by one instrument or in one day the passions of nations. It must take time. Far more harm has been done to the League by people with their heads in the clouds and their brains in their slippers than by the most inveterate enemy the League ever had. I should be sorry to have it thought that I had so little faith in the League as the Leader of the Opposition had. He was fearing last Saturday that the League might die. I should be very sorry if my faith was so slender as that.
  Whatever the outcome of events at Geneva, my right hon. Friend endeavoured to secure that the work which he did at Locarno should not be lost. He was successful in that. task. The work of Locarno was not lost. The Powers which came to an agreement at Locarno are in agreement still, and no work could be put to a more severe strain than was the work of Locarno at Geneva. Since the War we have sometimes been rejoicing prematurely at pacific efforts made by this country. Locarno has proved itself, by the test which it has stood, to be a real and true agreement arising from a desire of the nations to make that agreement real. If there was nothing else to be learnt from this unfortunate business. I should be more comforted by the strength which the agreement of Locarno has shown than I could be despondent at the result of events at Geneva. If there had been, as there might have been, a rift between the actual signatories at Locarno, the position of the League would have been serious. No such results have taken place, and we need not be so pessimistic.
  The results of Geneva were not so entirely sordid as some imagine. We had the offers of Sweden, and of Czechoslovakia, and we had the dignified behaviour in very trying circumstances of the German representatives. We

  1109
  had also a very glowing tribute paid by the French Prime Minister to the attitude of Germany. Was it not almost worth while to have gone through all this to have heard such words uttered by a French Prime Minister? It is to the future, and to the result of those words, and the result of the proved value of Locarno, that we have to look. We were all glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's reference to the extent to which the Dominions had worked with him throughout this difficult time. We were glad to hear that. It was very satisfactory. The day is coming near when we in this House in conjunction with the Dominions will have to provide some machinery whereby our Imperial policy can be more completely and successfully co-ordinated. Meanwhile, we have to see to it that in our very natural, and I suppose inevitable absorption in European problems, we do not lose our Imperial sensibility. We should be on the watch that we are not shackled by our geographical position, an appendage to Europe.
  The League has suffered in some senses a rebuff, but the work of Locarno;is there. It is safe; it is secure; it is strengthened by the ordeal through which it has passed, and the work of Locarno was to secure that those countries which previously had been enemies should arbitrate by conference instead of arbitrating by the sword. That was the value of Locarno. It was that that made the Treaties possible. It was that we called the "spirit of Locarno." That work is not destroyed. That spirit is not dead, and that wine is not corked. That wine has only been delayed in delivery, and has not suffered in quality through the delay. On the contrary, it is maturing I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, and it will still prove to be a source of strength and a stimulant, not only to the brain, but to the heart of man.
  Sir JOHN SIMON: The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite has, I think, put a much more reasonable point of view than the view with which the Foreign Secretary concluded. The Foreign Secretary told us that if, indeed, he ceased to hold his high office, he would leave it at the moment when British foreign policy had reached its highest point of influence and success
  1110
  since the War. The hon. and gallant Gentleman uses more moderate language when he comforts the House by saying things are not so deplorable as they seem. I agree there is a tendency to dwell upon events of the recent past, and, perhaps, in some quarters a tendency to speak in the language of extravagance about them. Like the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I am much more interested in what is likely to be the immediate future of the League of Nations than I am concerned in discussing in minute detail why it is that the tragedy of Geneva—I use the Foreign Secretary's words—came about. If I may be allowed to say so, I think even so experienced a man as the Foreign Secretary was himself guilty of exaggeration in using such a phrase. He never ought to have called what happened at Geneva a tragedy, as though it was something that had struck a mortal blow at the League of Nations. it is, I venture to think, a misfortune.
  I am sure it does not carry any conviction either in the House or the country for the Foreign Secretary to begin by saying that the charge he had to meet was a charge against his honour, whereas he knows perfectly well that the criticism is reasonable criticism as to the judgment and method he has shown, and to finish his speech as though this was his swan song, and proceed to write an epitaph for himself which would really be excessive even if he were at this moment the welcomed hero of Locarno. As regards the immediate past, there are two or three quite practical matters which now emerge. The Foreign Secretary's speech has made them perfectly clear, and in view of the possibility of similar difficulties arising in the future, I would ask the House to consider what the facts are which do now emerge. It is really quite clear that what the Foreign Secretary calls the tragedy of Geneva is not due to what happened at Geneva at all. It is due to certain things which happened between Locarno and Geneva. Though the Foreign Secretary deserves, and obtains on all hands, the reputation of the most devoted, honourable, public-spirited, of men, it does not follow that the course which he steered between Locarno and Geneva was really, at any rate when one looks back on it, the wise one.
  That is how the matter appears to one who, at any rate, can claim, I think, to

  1111
  know the contents of the Locarno Treaties and the Covenant of the League, two qualifications which it is very desirable to secure before one expresses a very confident opinion on this subject. The Locarno Treaties, may I remind the House —I am speaking, for instance, of the Treaty between Germany and France, or the Treaty between Germany and Belgium—were treaties which provided for the settlement of all future disputes, within certain limits of definition, by methods other than methods of war, and which secured, supposing that a Conciliation Commission failed in the last event, that the matter in dispute between the two Powers, say between France and Germany, should be decided by a body of arbitrators who are called the Council of the League. I find it impossible to believe that anybody seriously supposes that, when you negotiate such a treaty as that, it is not implied and understood and intended that that board of arbitrators, to which you refer as the Council of the League, is a body that is constituted in the way in which it was constituted at the time when that contract was made, with the specific addition of Germany as a permanent member of the Council. Let me point out to the House that there never has been, since the League was founded, any addition of other permanent members to the Council. From the very beginning it has been a clear understanding on the part of all who have taken any interest in the subject, that the Council was formed on the basis that some of its members were permanent, representing the Great Powers, and that others of them were non-permanent, and were the result of election from time to time by the Assembly.
  I am much obliged to the Foreign Secretary for coming in; I wanted to put the point to him, and I hope it will be reported to him that I have not been attempting simply to indulge in strong language, but am trying to ask the House to consider what is likely to be the immediate future of the League. That was the system which was set up by the Covenant of the League, and, therefore, when at Locarno a series of treaties were negotiated, to which Germany was invited to be a party, and when the Council of the League—this body of arbitrators—was put in the position of a final authority to settle disputes, say between Germany
  1112
  and France, or between Germany and Belgium, if disputes could not otherwise be settled, I cannot bring myself to believe that the people who did that on either side had any other intention, when they spoke of the Council of the League, than that it should be the Council as then constituted, with the addition, which was known and intended, of Germany as a further permanent member.
  I am confirmed in that by the way in which everybody behaved. The Foreign Secretary did not, in the course of his speech, in terms say whether he had any suspicions to the contrary, but here is a man, who is greatly master of his subject, who has at his elbow, I suppose, some of the most qualified and competent advisers on this subject that. the whole Civil Service can secure, and he tells us, from his side at any rate, that nothing of the sort to suggest the contrary was said at Locarno or after. Iin the same way, nothing, certainly, was said to Germany or by Germany, and, indeed, I understand that, when Germany sent her circular of inquiry to the 10 members, both permanent and non-permanent, of the Council, to ascertain, as she was entitled to ascertain, in advance, whether, if she applied to be a member of the League, she could count on being made a permanent member of the Council—I understand that not a single one of the 10 answers specifically raised this point at all. The answer from Brazil, with great respect to the Foreign Secretary, does not raise this point at all. The answer from Brazil is an answer which says that they themselves are quite agreeable, but, after all, this is a matter that has to be decided by the machinery of the League. Not a single one of the 10 members of the Council, when they were challenged as to their willingness to see Germany in this new position, ever hinted that, as a matter of fact, other additions to the permanent members of the Council were to be contemporaneous with that suggestion.
  The reason, if I may venture to say so, was that plain, good sense really made it clear from the beginning that that was the nature of the understanding that was involved in the. Locarno Treaty. I cannot understand how you could call upon Germany to engage in a Treaty of that sort, and put Germany and France in the position of the two parties to one

  1113
  of the Treaties, with the knowledge that this Board of Arbitrators is to be the final body to decide their disputes, and then say, "Of course, when I say that, that is not inconsistent with altering the arbitrators, adding to their number, putting another permanent arbitrator on the Board before you have a chance to say No.'" To my way of thinking, these results follow necessarily from a fair consideration of what happened at Locarno. It is not a question of the Foreign Secretary's honour at all. I do not say that I should be the last man in the House, because I believe everyone in the House would be of one mind, but the Foreign Secretary knows very well that I would never make the smallest reflection on either his honour or his good 'faith; but the, question is, how is it that, between Locarno and Geneva, he should have allowed, uncorrected, the impression to arise in various parts of the world that there would be nothing very surprising, that there would be nothing contrary to the spirit of Locarno if at Geneva, on an occasion when there was to be an extraordinary meeting of the Assembly, called specially for this purpose, you were to find that, before Germany was actually made a member of this Board of Arbitrators, other persons were to be put on as permanent members, too?
  How has that come about? It seems to me, after listening to the Foreign Secretary, not only to-day but the other day, as clear as crystal how it has come about. It is because the Foreign Secretary has never said, even in private, to those with whom he has been carrying on these Locarno conversations, that that really is contrary to the fundamental idea of the Locarno Treaties themselves. That was the judgment of the whole country, which took an interest in this matter and which had a far sounder view of it than the Foreign Secretary, with all his upright conduct and with all his devotion to public duty. I cannot understand how it is that he, the author of Locarno, did not say, "Nobody knows the meaning of Locarno better than I do, and the meaning of Locarno is this: It is a great symbolic act, for which we are summoning the Assembly specially this spring, in order that we may sweep a sponge over the past, and in order that we may put Germany, as a Great Power, alongside these other Great Powers on this Board of Arbitrators, and start a better world."
  1114
  He was entitled to every credit for the part he played in Locarno, and he certainly cannot complain that I or anyone else has ever criticised that in the least. But, instead of that, the Foreign Secretary allows himself, I cannot imagine why or how, to be bemused into a situation where he allowed this kind of thing to be dwelt upon. I listened to him saying, and I accept every word that he said, "It is not true that in December at Paris, in meeting M. Briand, I entered into any engagement or any contract about Poland." I accept that, but what I should like to know, as the Foreign Secretary is here now, is whether, in December or at any other time, in Paris or anywhere else, he, after Locarno and before Geneva, conveyed to M. Briand, however informally, the information that he personally was not unfavourable to the idea of Poland, or whatever Power it might be, becoming an additional member. If he did that, it is not a reflection on his honour or his good faith, but it is a reflection on his judgment or his acumen. If he had taken the line of saying, "No, the meaning of this approaching meeting at Geneva is really that we are going to do this one big thing; do not let us belittle or complicate or confuse it by encouraging all sorts of other people to put in their rival claims," I could understand it. He says, "How could I prevent people from putting in rival claims?" I agree that he could not. But he could either make it easier for them to do it or he could make it more difficult for them to do it, and our complaint is that. he so conducted himself that he has made it easier for them to do it.
  Let me take a second example. He said, as I understood him, that between Locarno and Geneva there was some communication on his part to Spain, and that that did take the form of an assurance, though he described it in a curious phrase—he said it was renewing an assurance to Spain that she would have our support on a suitable occasion. That is not what the Prime Minister said in the Debate before he went to Geneva; it is a different phrase altogether. I wish someone, before the Debate is over, would tell us what it means. Does it mean that the Foreign Secretary has said to Spain, or to the Spanish Ambassador, "Yes, I shall continue to support your

  1115
  proposal at this coming meeting at Geneva"; or does it mean that the Foreign Secretary said," I would agree to your proposal or help you at some other time, but this meeting at Geneva is really for a special purpose, and it ought not to be complicated by this other question "? Which is it? It seems to me that it is a fair question to ask the Foreign Secretary, and I hope he will not think me unduly impertinent if I press it. Which did he do? He refuses to answer, and that is only another illustration of the fact that he has really so conducted this business between Locarno and Geneva as to create exactly the wrong atmosphere for carrying Geneva successfully through.
  The Foreign Secretary, in his speech just now, said that he did not want people to arrive at Geneva with their positions publicly taken as to this or that. There is a great deal of good sense, of course, in that. I have had a great deal to do, in my professional life, with negotiating all sorts of things of a much less important order, and I know very well that it is quite true that, if you want to produce a settlement, it is very undesirable for everyone to turn up in the conference room with a publicly proclaimed point of view before they start. But it is even more important that, if you want to produce agreement at Geneva, you should not go to Geneva having taken up certain positions privately and behind the backs of other people. It appears now that, when the Foreign Secretary came to the House of Commons before he went to Geneva, and made his speech asking for a free hand, what he really meant was this: "I do not want to have to make any statement in the House of Commons; I want, between myself and the British people, to go with no sort of restraint upon me;" but in truth and in fact his hands were not free, and, until the Cabinet gave him instructions Which certainly to some extent narrowed his latitude of action, he was free to do what he liked as far as this country was concerned, although really, as it seems to me, he had bound himself by these injudicious declarations, amounting, apparently, to a pledge in the case of Spain, and amounting, I take leave to infer, to private indications of his personal view in the case of Poland or some other country.
  1116
  That is the real criticism as regards the past which we have to make. Now that the Foreign Secretary is here, I say it is ridiculous for him to begin his defence by pretending that he is defending his honour, and to end his defence by saying that British foreign policy since Locarno has never reached such a height of splendour as at the present time. I do not know which is the more absurd. The truth is that, most unhappily, this matter has been very unfortunately handled, and, while I quite agree that it is very much easier to criticise than to do it, and very much easier to criticise after the event than to be wise before the event, it is quite hopeless for the Government or their supporters to pretend in this House or to the country that this is one of those successes which count to the credit of the Conservative party, and that there is no reason for anyone to complain. My answer, therefore, to the Foreign Secretary with regard to the past is that it is no good waving his hand and saying; "How can I prevent Poland or Spain, or whoever it may be, putting up her claim? How can I put down my foot and stop it?" Of course you cannot entirely prevent it, but you should either act in a way which encourages, or in a way which discourages it, and if I may presume to try to use a language I understand the right hon. Gentleman prefers to use in his diplomatic conversations I would say to him in the words of Moliere:
  "Vous l'avez voulu, Georges Dandin."
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: "Tu Pas voulu."
  Sir J. SIMON: I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should look it up. Quoting it with a "tu" is a very common error.
  Let me deal with one other point as regards the past. The other criticism as regards the past, which I think is a fair one, is that the Foreign Secretary is so much obsessed with what he regards as the superior method of the Locarno conversations that he has really forgotten to give the League itself—the machinery of the League—the opportunity of full action, Consider what the diary of this unhappy fortnight at Geneva is. I am certain the right hon. Gentleman worked night and day. No one, I am convinced, could have been more single-minded and

  1117
  devoted. He has worn himself out and he is entitled in that sense to the sympathy—and he has it—of everyone. But what was he doing? He was not using the machinery of the League at all. The Assembly of the League never met except for the purpose of passing Resolutions prepared for them by certain Locarno Powers, and already announced to the world by a communiqué in the Press, to the effect that they should adjourn till September. These Locarno Powers, if I am not mistaken, on the evening before the Assembly met for the first and last time said, "It is all up. We cannot do anything." They actually inserted in the newspapers a Press communique before they went to the Assembly next day and the Assembly was told—some 55 nations who had been kicking their heels for a fortnight past—" Thank you for waiting so long, but the only business you have to conduct is to resolve to adjourn till Sep member."
  That is not using the League machinery at all. Not only that, but let us take the Council of the League. If I am not mistaken, the Council of the League, as a Council, never met on the subject of this attitude of Brazil at all. I am told there are not even any Minutes of the meeting. Instead of using the machinery of the League, whether Council or Assembly, the right hon. Gentleman has been spending all his time in a well-meaning but, as it has turned out, most unhappy effort to continue what he calls the Locarno conversations. He made one point in his speech which is, to some extent, a justification. He pointed out that, after all, it was necessary to get Germany into these things. That is quite right, and I can quite see that there may be many occasions when it is necessary for him to have conversations in which Germany could take part, and as Germany was not a member of the League, some use of that method was inevitable. But that does not in the least excuse the failure to use the machinery of the League, Council or Assembly, when you found yourself opposed by Brazil, or whatever the obstacle might be, who were members of the League, and my respectful criticism on this point is that it is not the League of Nations that has broken down at Geneva. It has never been used in the way it should be used.
  No effort has ever been made to concentrate and apply the public opinion of
  1118
  the world as expressed in the Assembly—no method has ever been employed at Geneva to bring the obstructive party face to face with his colleagues on the Council at the Council and have it out, but from beginning to end the right hon. Gentleman has been conducting the whole business by the method of what are called Locarno conversations, which really mean a series of private secret discussions between selected Allies and Germany. I have not gone mad on the subject of secret diplomacy. I have no doubt there are many occasions when it is absolutely necessary to have such confidential discussions. I hope the Foreign Secretary will see it is quite a real point that I am making. The real fact is that that fortnight at Geneva from first to last, so far from being an illustration of the working of the League of Nations is an illustration of what an awful mess you get into if you summon nations from all over the world to attend a meeting of the League and never allow the League machinery to work.
  So much for the past, because really, though these things are most vital matters, in which I think criticism is very well founded, after all, the past is over and the really important thing is what is going to happen now. I wish the Prime Minister were here. I shall be greatly obliged if the Foreign Secretary will communicate to him, at his leisure, these three questions. First of all, I want to know what is going to be the attitude of our Government—I do not mean in detail but in principle—between now and next September on this point? Is the British Government going to stand by the declaration that the rule of unanimity is, as things are, a fundamental principle of the operation of the Council? I remember the right hon. Gentleman pointing out in a very powerful passage of his speech at the beginning of this month how this rule of unanimity was so fundamentally important, as things were, and I think on that subject he delivered himself of an argument which no one can resist. It is very important, because I cannot help suspecting that when our friends in France are going to attend discussions between now and September as to what modifications in the structure or constitution of the Council may be desirable, this question of unanimity may turn up, and it seems to me of first-class

  1119
  importance that we should make it plain publicly, and make it plain now, to Germany that whatever may have been the fluctuations in detail of British policy on this subject, we stand firmly by the view that the Council of the League, as things are, must decide on the principle of unanimity. If you do not do that, it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman's plan of getting Germany in will be in a, very dangerous position indeed, and I would ask whether or not we might have a public statement on that subject, because otherwise a very serious misunderstanding may arise.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Both before going to Geneva and while there, I made that statement.
  Sir J. SIMON: Whatever this Committee or Conference is going to do, so that we understand that the British Government is committed to the view that there is going to be no change, as things are, in the constitution of the Council of the League in the direction of securing any different test than the test of unanimity. That being so, may I point out that it appears to be at least rather a reckless proceeding to multiply members. If one blackball can exclude, I should have thought the fewer people with blackballs the better. I recollect in one of the earlier stories of Charles Dickens, I think in "Sketches by Boz," there is a very amusing sketch about two gentlemen who decided that they would have a water picnic. They hired a paddle boat for the purpose, and they met to draw up the rules under which they were going to invite their guests. They decided that the rule should be that they would have a ballot, and one blackball should exclude. At the end of the afternoon they had no guests at all. I should have thought, other things being equal, if you are going to stick to the rule of unanimity, it is not a very desirable thing to go adding to the Council Powers, not obviously Powers of the first importance, whatever may be their status in the world, who would only add to the probability of a difference of view.
  The second question I wish to ask is this. Is it intended in future to give the methods of the League their full chance, instead of relying on secret arrangements, or secret assurances, or secret explanations made between the Locarno Powers? Locarno conversations are all very well
  1120
  if they produce a good result, but recent experience shows that they do not always do it, and I think in view of the fact that on all sides in the House of Commons there is so much sincere interest in the working of the League of Nations, it is not unreasonable to ask for a public assurance that in the future, and in dealing with this matter from now on the machinery of the League is going to be given its full opportunity of operating and it is not going to be held up or delayed or in some cases, I think, actually obstructed by some notion that Locarno conversation or secret discussion between selected Powers is a preferable means of arriving at the result. I quite see that there are occasions when secret methods must be employed, but if we believe in a future for the League of Nations, surely we ought to see to it that its machinery gets an opportunity of properly operating.
  The third question I want to ask is this. I think it is implied in the instructions the Foreign Secretary read just now as being the instructions he took from the Government when he went to Geneva.. May we have a public statement before the Debate ends, whether it is the view of the Government that the permanent seats on the Council of the League should be in the future, as they have been in the past, strictly confined to the great Powers. I know it may be asked what is a great Power. Perhaps the best answer is the familiar answer given by the man who was asked, "What is an elephant?" He said I cannot define an elephant, but I know one when I see one. As a matter of fact the great Powers, as understood by those who framed the Covenant, are perfectly well known. It was always intended that the four who now have permanent seats, together with Germany, Russia and the United States, should constitute the great Powers, because they have after all the biggest burden to bear 'and the greatest responsibility if the decisions of the League have to be carried out, and the whole structure of the Covenant is that while in a sense everyone is equal, 'still there are certain great States which ought to be put in a permanent position of authority.
  It seems to me that nothing but trouble could arise if the idea is encouraged—and my complaint of the Foreign Secretary is that he has encouraged the idea—that these places are open as the result

  1121
  of a little bargaining, a little conversation, a little negotiation, to people who are not really qualified as great Powers. I can imagine the day may come when China may be a great Power. Changes may take place. But as things are, if you arc once going to admit that some of the Powers who have been mentioned in this connection are great Powers, there is no end to it. May I point out one very curious feature about the construction of the Council of the League. In the knowledge I have of constitutions of a different kind, I do not recall a parallel case. The Covenant is a very completely drawn instrument, but it has this very strange feature. Once the Assembly of the League, at any meeting, has passed the necessary vote in order to put a given State on the Council as a permanent member, there is no machinery of any sort or kind by which you can ever get it out again.
  It is permanent in that sense. Therefore, to allow discussions as to whether Poland or Spain should be among the great Powers, and to allow that kind of discussion to take place, as if you were merely negotiating a settlement for this year or next year, is completely to misunderstand what is involved. The whole future of the world may depend upon the restraint and the wisdom with which people at the League of Nations control their very natural ambitions to rank among great Powers when, really, they are not of that status in the world. I observe that in the instructions read by the Foreign Secretary he does appear to have been instructed by his Government that his object should be not to enlarge the list of permanent Powers on the Council. So far, so good. I invite anyone who speaks from the Government bench to make it absolutely clear as the policy for the future, and between now and next September, that there is no question of this country at any rate allowing this distortion of the real principle of the League.
  I am sorry that I should have been critical, because I know very well that the Foreign Secretary has strained himself to the utmost, and that the whole country is grateful to him for the undivided assiduous devotion which he has given to this matter. But that is not the question. We are more concerned to secure that what has happened does not happen again. Though he never meant
  1122
  it, if I may say so without insulting him, though I think he never realised it, the whole conduct of the Foreign Secretary before he went to Geneva encouraged the very thing that happened. He actually went to Birmingham and made a speech, about ten days before he started for Geneva, in which he advertised to the world that, in principle, the sort of argument which ultimately brought shipwreck to Geneva was one which did not cause any great revolt in his mind or consternation to his temperament. What lie ought to have said was this, "Do not let us spoil what may be the most significant step forward in the history of Europe and the world, by allowing these wretched petty things to crop up." He could not, perhaps, have avoided what happened, but if he is the real author of Locarno, he might have used his authority to that end instead of unintentionally and most unfortunately being the cause of so much of this confusion.
  Sir ALFRED HOPKINSON: It may be considered strange that a new Member should so soon take advantage of the privilege which is usually given, and to speak on a question of such importance as the one before the House. I have listened to the moving speeches that have been made by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and the reply by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I have heard many speeches in this House, but I have never heard within these walls two speeches which affected me more than those delivered to-day by those two right hon. Gentlemen. I am one of those people who by their nature cannot, however hard one tries, look at a. question through the eyes of a partisan. I have often tried to do so, but I have never been able to succeed. Having listened to the speeches to-night, I am satisfied of one thing; that we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Foreign Secretary, not only for his assiduity but for what he has accomplished in the work that he has done at Locarno and since. Looking at the matter as dispassionately as I can, I feel that the position of this country stands higher than ever and that, from our day there are two names that will go down to posterity as great Foreign Secretaries who have raised the tone of negotiation and of international relationships. Those names arc the names of Grey and Chamberlain.

  1123
  I will not say more about the past. The past has been discussed fully. What of the future? I agree entirely with something that was said by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). As to the past—we have made up our minds one way or the other, and it is our duty now to consider the future. What is going to happen and what policy shall we pursue On that point some things have been said and said sometimes in a tone of despair and I am afraid sometimes almost in a tone of exultation. It has been said, first of all, that the League of Nations has been killed, and, secondly, that if it is killed, the hopes of humanity are gone. I believe that both those propositions are profoundly false. The League of Nations is not in a moribund condition, but there are certain features in the constitution of the League which require revision. I would not have ventured to address the House on this matter had I not thought a good deal about it when the idea of the League of Nations was first conceived, and also during the period of gestation before its birth. I then formed the opinion which subsequent events have confirmed as to two or three matters which ought to be laid clown as fundamental principles as regards a League of Nations. The first principle is, that we must never look on the League of Nations to be a super-State. The second is, that the surest hope of the League of Nations at the present time is more and more co-operation, working together in a number of practical matters which are outside the range of the prevention of war, but which are for the benefit of all. That kind of co-operation should go on, and it is that which will be most useful in the future. The third proposition, stated long before the Covenant of the League was framed, was that until you admit to the League, those nations that were enemies of ours during the War you have not got a real League of Nations, but something very far different. It would amount to a 'form of defensive alliance, but you have not a real League of Nations. The The fourth and most important proposition is that the agreements that have been made in the Covenant of the
  1124
  League with regard to our going to war, or other nations going to war, to preserve peace, is the worst possible course that could be adopted, arid it will lead, possibly, to evils greater than those it was intended to cure. When the matter was first discussed in another place and it was suggested that a League of Nations would be no good unless it had the sanction of physical force to execute its decisions, the man who knew perhaps more than any other person in our time about the conditions of foreign nations, I mean the late Lord Bryce, suggested that they should omit the words respecting warlike sanctions which had been proposed in the original resolution in the summer of 1918 and carried his point then. Unfortunately, that warning and others were forgotten. The real root of our worst troubles now is to be found in the two fatal Clauses 10 and 16. They are ambiguous. Their ambiguity attracted the attention of Germany. The Germans naturally said, in effect, "What do these Clauses actually mean?" We had to give an answer, and it was given in Annexe F to the Locarno Pact. Unfortunately, that answer was only too correct. If w e want the main reason why the United States of America have stayed out from the League, it is to he found in these two Clauses. It has been stated on the. highest American authority that it was Clause 10 more than anything else that kept America out of the League. You will never have a complete League of Nations so long as the United States of America do not join the League. This, I think, is the greatest danger which threatens us now. It is from questions which may in the immediate future arise in the West with regard to the League of Nations. I do not wish to pursue this subject further, but I do urge it as a matter of the gravest consideration as to whether, if the League of Nations is sick at the present time, the real thing that is required is not a surgical operation—an operation which some of us thought would be necessary even before the League was born—in order to stop the policy which led to the insertion of these fatal Clauses. At the same time a number of ambiguities which are to be found on the face of the document might be corrected. Revision of the Covenant is essential in a quieter atmosphere than that which existed when it was framed at Versailles. It is clear

  1125
  that ambiguities will arise from time to time. They have become apparent from time to time when the Covenant has been discussed, and we shall have them again and again.
  It is time we revised the Covenant. When we are revising and discussing the question of policy, let us look at the way in which the Covenant is framed with regard to the very matter now under discussion, namely, how to admit any new member to the League and to a seat on the Council. The Clause in the Covenant is pretty clear on that point as to the Assembly, but far from clear as to the Council. If you are going to act upon a document, look at the actual terms of the document on which you are going to act. That is a good legal rule. The Clause (No. 4 of the Covenant) respecting the admission of a new member says that it mils:, be with the approval of the majority of the Assembly. My belief is that in future the wisest course will be to get that assent first. Then, the majority of the Assembly would clearly decide the matter whatever the minority thought. It is important to get the vote of the majority of the more popular body first. Whether or not you want unanimity on the Council is a very grave question. I submit to those who are in authority that they should consider whether, reading these two Clauses of the Covenant (No. 4 and No. 5) together, the true construction is not this, that you may pass a resolution on this special matter by a majority of the Council if you have had the approval of majority of the Assembly, but I admit this point is very doubtful.
  But supposing the League were to break down for any reason and supposing we are never able to get the United Stat.3s of America into the League. Supposing the United States go on feeling, as they do now, that the Clause 10, as it is construed by the annexe of the Locarno Pact, means that the numbers would be bound to come in in case of disputes between any two States and to exercise arm force. If such force were used on the American continent at the instance of the League, the United States of America might say: "We want more than a verbal recognition of our Monroe doctrine." Supposing there were a dispute between Chile and Peru. Supposing one of these countries is ill-treating the subjects of the other and it is suddenly
  1126
  told if they take overt action to protect them that it is an aggressor within the meaning of the Covenant and that we must go in and intervene with armed force. What would happen to a British naval force if, on the recommendation of the League, we were to send it out to operate against Chile or Peru or any other South American State? The American Navy might have something to say. Our force might never come back.
  8.0 P.M.
  Let us get rid of the idea that the League of Nations should enter into bargains to go to war. Lord Bryce saw that danger. The United States of America have recognised that danger. Let us get rid of the dangerous parts of these two fatal Clauses. Finally, supposing the League of Nations were to break up. Are the hopes of humanity gone? Not one bit of it. I suppose I have lived longer than almost anyone now in this House. I have known persons of all classes and all ages, of all the ranks in life and of many different nations, and the longer I live the more firmly am I convinced of the essential goodness of human nature if you take it in the right way. Whether the League of Nations exists or not, even if it is swept away, I believe there is a possibility of cultivating the feeling of good will which we may find everywhere and which the right hon. Gentleman has done so much to maintain, and that, that being so, I do not give up hope, even if the League itself were to disappear. If it was subjected to the proper surgical operation I have indicated then I believe it would go on perfectly healthy for many years to come and be a benefit to the whole world. But, if not, though at the present moment we are not happy about what has happened since Locarno may I commend an old saying to those who have these difficult matters in hand:
  " If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars."
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I have never heard a speech from the benches opposite with which I agreed so much as the speech to which I have just listened. The House may congratulate itself on the reappearance in this Assembly of the father of its most popular Member. With him, I think, the possibility of improving the League of Nations depends on a revision of Clauses 10 and 16 of the Covenant, and of Annex 5, which went

  1127
  to make up the Treaty of Locarno. More than that, the real. prospect of the League of Nations becoming what we would have it, a real League for peace, depends on the accession of the great American nation. I only disagree with the hon. Member when he says that he is grateful to the Foreign Secretary. I feel that the Foreign Secretary has let down the good name of England and has handed over to the representative of Sweden the task of voicing the views, not only of those who sit on these benches, but the views of the mass of the population of Great Britain. Our common sense was right. Why should these views, which are those, not only of Members of this side of the House but even of the Government Front Bench, be left to Sweden to expound, and our own representative take up the inferior position of a jackal for another nation?
  The hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) said that the two great names of British Foreign Secretaries which would go down to history would be Lord Grey of Fallodon and Sir Austen Chamberlain. I could wish that the Foreign Secretary had read Lord Grey's book "Twenty-five Years." If he did, he would usefully learn two lessons. First, he would discover that the nations of Europe, very jealous of each other, are very liable to be misled as to the attitude of this country towards their rivals; that whenever we attempted to be on good terms with France, Germany suspected more than was there; and that when we attempted to be on good terms with Germany, France was ready to believe the worst of this country. He would find also that the only way to meet this difficulty is to be equally frank and candid with both parties who might be interested. He would have learnt, that after be had seen M. Briand and the Spanish Ambassador in Paris, it was essential, if good terms were to be maintained, to communicate the result of those conservations to Germany, in order to show that there was no ground for any suspicion of any kind directly the news of these conversations leaked out.
  He would have learnt also from that book the disadvantages of being able to speak a little French. It is always difficult when you are speaking in a foreign
  1128
  language to give your whole attention to the subject matter of your conversation—you are distracted by the necessity of translating it into a foreign language. Lord Grey's inability to talk French, or to talk it in conversation with the French Ambassador, gave him an opportunity of thinking considerably, while his colleague was being translated, on what he would say in reply, and a great deal of the misfortunes which have arisen from these conversations in Paris has been due to the fact that the anxiety of our Foreign Secretary to talk the language of his friend has led him hastily to commit himself and his country to a policy which has turned out to be a disaster to this country and to the world.
  For the first time since the War we have seen the opinion of this country almost unanimously, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond), in favour of a certain policy. We know now that that policy was right. We know that if the instructions of the Foreign Secretary had told him to confine his attention to getting Germany on to the Council of the League, and if he had carried out those instructions, we should have been in the proud position of a nation that had stuck to the straight line, knew what it wanted and had not waivered from it at. all. We should then have been, indeed, in the position of Sweden, and, more than that, we should have been looked up to, as Sweden is being looked up to now. It is a thousand tragedies that this has not happened. I do not blame the Foreign Secretary. I think he was extraordinarily stupid and rash in committing himself to the opinions to which he gave vent when he was in Paris. Everybody knew that he was committed to these opinions. He did not conceal them from this House. I blame the Prime Minister who, in spite of knowing to what the Foreign Secretary was committed, allowed him to go to Geneva and attempt to put before the Powers two contradictory policies; the policy dictated by his commitments in Paris and the policy dictated by this House and this country. They are not consistent policies, and his instructions allowed him to go there with a free hand, so far as we were concerned, but with bound hands so far as France and Spain were concerned, and, possibly, Brazil. The Prime Minister secured his

  1129
  majority on the 4th March by his speech in this House. Speaking after the Foreign Secretary, he told us what the Foreign. Secretary was going to do at Geneva. He said:
  " The first thing, the paramount thing, to which they "—
  That is Lord Cecil and Sir Austen Chamberlain, our representatives—
  " will devote their attention is to see that Germany becomes a member of the League, with a seat on the Council. That is the primary business. That is what they hope to achieve. It is quite true that there is a solid public opinion in this country."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1926; col. 1694 Vol. 192.]
  That was the declaration on which that Vote was taken. No wonder the Prime Minister got a majority of 100 in spite of the fact that everybody who spoke criticised the Foreign Secretary's speeches. The Government got a majority on that speech, and after making that speech we see not only the instructions given to the Foreign Secretary, but also the lamentable use he made of those instructions. England now, instead of being a leader in the development of the League of Nations has become the satelite of another, and our good name is left in Swedish charge.
  Sir ELLIS HUME-WILLIAMS: I would like to join with the last speaker in offering my congratulations to the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Sir A. Hopkinson) who has addressed us, and to say how glad we are to see 'him back in his old haunts and with his old force quite undiminished. I hope it will be many years before we shall lose him again. if am deeply interested in the League of Nations. Underlying all the speeches which have been made this afternoon, there has been a consensus of opinion to the effect that, although what has recently happened may be looked upon as, a small set back to the League, yet its future is assured, that it will continue to do what it has so conspicuously accomplished recently, and that it will merge from the ideal into the practical and become one of the great factors for peace in the world. We have had a good deal of criticism this afternoon, and it appears to me that the real crux of the matter is this. When the Locarno Treaty was being discussed, there was such a general consensus of opinion throughout the world that it would be a
  1130
  good thing for Germany to come in. We had tried so long to get Germany into the League and she had been hesitating for so long, and there was so much general satisfaction at the prospect of Germany coming in, that those who were interested in the matter overlooked the fact that there might be a slip between the cup and the lip, that there was this slip which might upset the whole scheme.
  There does not seem to have been any discussion at the Locarno negotiations as to whether or not the entry of Germany would be uncontested, as to whether any other Power would seize that opportunity to try to get in at the same time. It is the unexpected that always happens, and in this case it certainly was the unexpected that happened when Brazil took up the attitude which she did take. What part had the Foreign Secretary in the matter? The original suggestion which surprised, and I think alarmed, the world, was that Poland was to come in simultaneously with Germany. But that did not come from England, and there can be no responsibility on the Foreign Secretary for that.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Oh, yes, he said so.
  Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: Exactly the contrary. We have the assurance that in his conversation with M. Briand he had no agreement to that effect.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: He said he had not come to any agreement.
  Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: He said so specifically in terms, when the proposition was made that there was some doubt in the country as to whether it was the result of an agreement arrived at between M. Briand and the Foreign Secretary; we were assured, and have been assured again to-day, that there was no agreement of any sort or kind to that effect. Spain stands on a. different footing altogether. There has never been the least disguise of the fact that England has for long been desirous that Spain should take her place on the Council, Mr. Balfour when representing this country at the meetings of the League himself made that proposal. It is common knowledge. But the only complaint that could be made against the Foreign Secretary was involved in the suggestion that either he had suggested himself, or had consented, that the entry of Spain should be again

  1131
  pressed contemporaneously with that of Germany, and that he has told us in terms he did not do. What he has said is that the only suggestion which he made was, that if the question was raised at all, some day the question of Spain joining the League would again come forward for consideration.
  Up to the time that the Foreign Secretary went out to Geneva, what possible complaint is there to be made against him? He was not responsible for the suggestions that were made. Probably they appeared as disastrous to him as to us here. He was 'made aware of the absolute consensus of public opinion in this country, to the effect that Germany should come in alone. It was made obvious by a great meeting of Members of this House, and it was clear that the Foreign Secretary understood it. He went with the specific instructions of his Government, and these he has read to the House, to the effect that all his efforts must be directed towards obtaining the entry of Germany, and of Germany alone. At that time he knew, and we knew that the suggestions to utilise the opportunity to bring in Poland and Spain had been made, and that something of the kind might occur when he reached Geneva. So he went. He went with the determination, as he has told us, and indeed it is obvious—he went with one purpose and one purpose only—by negotiation, by the use of every art that he knew to try to get Germany in, and Germany in alone. Those were his instructions, and for that purpose he went out.
  What happened when he got there '? It is no good saying that he went out as a sort of representative of a Government with one fixed answer to give to everything that was said, to sit down and say: "I will not consent to anything at all; I will not discuss it. Those are my instructions, and I cannot budge an inch to the right or to the left." As he has very properly said, what is the good of having a League of Nations and meeting at Geneva if he has simply to go there and to say what his Government could perfectly well have said in England without sending him at all—" This is the determination at which we have arrived, and we will not alter it to the right or to the left "? That is not the ideal of the League; that is not the way the busi-
  1132
  ness of the League can be carried on. It would be no good sending representatives to the League if every representative went as the spokesman of a nation which had already expressed its opinion upon the subject for discussion. So the Foreign Secretary went out with these instructions.
  That seems to me to be the gist of the thing. The importance of the discussion was such, and the desire of the modern Press to keep the public in touch with every detail of what happens is such, that every step which he took and which everybody else took was telegraphed back to London, and immense capital was made out of it in the morning and evening newspapers. He could not go out to tea or to lunch, every informal meeting, every person he saw with reference to the object for which. he was despatched, was immediately put into writing and sent over here for reproduction in the English newspapers. In my opinion far too much fuss was made about it. It was a newspaper excitement. All the comings and goings were reported—things of which the Leader of the Opposition to-day has quite legitimately made a certain amount of fun. But these things were natural, it was necessary that they should take place if the Foreign Secretary was to try to carry out the job for which he was sent there. It is idle to say that great importance is to be attached to them because they were telegraphed home to be published. It was this passionate desire for publicity, and the equally passionate desire of the newspapers to sell their morning and evening editions that are at the bottom of all the excitement created by these negotiations, natural and necessary negotiations, which were going on while this conference was beginning.
  Did the Foreign Secretary do that which this country expected? It is common ground that he gave all his energies and time to his task, that he did not spare his health for a moment, and that he did everything of which he was capable in carrying out properly the work for which he had been sent. His reward when he returns is this vote of censure, moved, I presume, by the Liberal party to justify what remains of their anæmic existence. The interest that they show in the Vote which they have moved may well be gauged by the empty benches opposite.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: There are not many on the Conservative Benches.
  Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: There is not one Liberal who has taken sufficient interest in the matter to remain during the sacred half hour from 8 o'clock to 8.30, or whatever time it takes a Liberal Member to eat and digest his dinner. What I want to impress upon the House is this. The real danger that the Foreign Secretary had to face at Geneva was that Germany might have said, This veto of Brazil, this unexpected happening, has released us from our obligations at Locarno. It was part of the understanding that we should enter the League of Nations and enter it now. It has been stopped, and we are going to leave Geneva; we are going to throw up the whole thing. There shall be an end of the Locarno Treaty.
  The application has failed, we are free, we shall go home—and it is none too easy for us to explain the matter to our own people in our own House—and that will be the end of Locarno ! That would indeed have been a tragedy. To whom is it due that Germany has not taken up that attitude? Let us be just. Is it not obvious that to the personal influence, hard work and untiring energy of the Foreign Secretary we owe the fact that, whatever may have happened in Geneva, whatever the debacle may have been, Germany remains an applicant for a seat on the Council? After all, that is an achievement of which the right hon. Gentleman may well be proud, and we in this House and in this country may congratulate ourselves on the fact that Germany has not taken up that attitude, which would have been justified, however disastrous it would have been in its effect for her and for us. If that be so, can anybody say that there is a single action of the Foreign Secretary's concerning which blame can rest upon him? He gave no pledge before he went. He welt out with definite instructions to do his best to get Germany in, and those instructions he fulfilled in the letter and the: spirit.
  When he was there, he, at any rate, secured that no harm should come to the League of Nations except that which may come from unfriendly public criticism. Even those who moved this Vote of censure, and certainly the right hon. Gentleman who supported it, are among
  1134
  the League's most ardent supporters and most powerful friends, and they remain so. Nobody, except perhaps the right hon. Gentleman who moved this reduction in a few hard-hearted sentences, has suggested that the League of Nations has failed or is weakening in its influence in the world. If I am right in saying so, I submit there is no single point upon which one can put a finger and say, "That is a fault on the part of the Foreign Secretary, and to that fault the action of Brazil is attributable." I have heard all this Debate up to now, and I have not heard any suggestion that the action of Brazil can be traced to any influence of that kind. It appears to have been, as far as we know, an independent action on the part of Brazil, not dictated by anyone, but, at any rate, whether that be right or wrong, whether it was an individual action by Brazil or not, nobody has attributed it to the Foreign Secretary.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Everybody has.
  Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: Everybody has ! Really the right hon. and gallant Gentleman should have more regard for accuracy.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: If the Foreign Secretary had not gone to Paris and talked in Paris, we should not have been committed to any of these increases in the Council.
  Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMS: That is a bold statement and its boldness is only equalled by its complete inaccuracy. If we take the. Foreign Secretary's account of the conversations, such conversations as took place in Paris had no influence at all. Even in Paris the only two countries mentioned were Poland and Spain, neither of whom obstructed and neither of whom have come in. Spain and Poland disappeared from the discussion entirely, and the debacle, such as it was, was brought about by the action of Brazil. Nobody has suggested that that action was ever mentioned before the discussions at Geneva. I am speaking as a back bencher, and I am expressing as any hon. Member is entitled to do my personal views only. That will be understood, because I happen to be connected with mm of the great organisations in this House concerned with the League. Speaking for myself, I suggest that in this matter a distinguished public servant has been hardly treated. Considering the thanks with which he was over-

  1135
  whelmed when he came back after accomplishing the Locarno agreement, it is a little ungenerous to say now that because a Power over which he has no control has postponed the fulfilment of his work at Locarno, therefore we are to have something in the nature of a Vote of Censure moved in this House and are to spend hours discussing whether he, as a public servant, is blameworthy or whether it is simply a series of accidents which has led to the result we all deplore, namely the postponement of the fruition of the Locarno Treaty. I think instead of criticising the right hon. Gentleman we ought to express our gratitude to him for an arduous task admirably performed. It seems to me that he has carried out his instructions, as I have said, both in the letter and the spirit and I, for one, not only support him in this Debate, but I feel as a Member of this House and as a member of the community that we owe him a debt of gratitude which is indeed badly expressed by an Amendment of the description which is now before the House.
  Mr. RENNIE SMITH: I was glad when the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H, Cecil) reminded us that however much Foreign Secretaries may blunder, we cannot avoid coming back to the problem of building up an effective League of Nations. The Noble Lord underlined the fact that modern civilisation is so interdependent that we are driven back again and again to the consideration of what is now the only practical problem of the larger politics of the world—the need for establishing a more effective League of Nations. That, I suppose, is the chief consolation to be derived from the very bad setback which the League has received in the last two or three weeks. The League has to deal with big problems and little problems, and in the last three weeks it has been handling one of the biggest problems with which it has had to deal since 1919. Civilisation was forced to create the League by the necessity and under the shadow of the world War. The League, therefore, took on the characteristics impressed upon it by victorious military Powers. We have striven since 1919 to broaden and make more inclusive the character of the League, and one Government after another have asked themselves
  1136
  three questions. How can we get the United States into the League? How can we get Russia into the League'? How can we get Germany into the League? These have been the three major problems in the conversion of a nominal and limited League into a real and effective League in the government of the world.
  We have had now some years of anxious, difficult, protracted discussions, not only by this Government, but by all who have been really casing for the progressive development of the League, and we had got so far a few months ago, in the Locarno Agreement, that we were within sight for the first time of building a real bridge between the military victors and the vanquished Powers in the world War, so that it was possible for the Foreign Secretary himself to say that during the Locarno discussions the phrase "the Allied Powers" had never once been used. We were getting within sight of the possibility of practical co-operation in the League between those Powers which were so fatally divided in 1319. Therefore, I want to emphasise, in trying to express the point of view of Members on the Labour benches, that the issue with which we are dealing is not an ordinary League issue, but one of first-class importance, one of bringing into the orbit of the League of Nations the chief of the defeated military Powers in the late world War, and from that point of view I think it can be well understood why the whole nation, irrespective of party, rejoiced about the Treaty of Locarno. They rejoiced fundamentally because they realised that at last, after these protracted and difficult negotiations, we were in sight of being able to welcome into the polity of the League of Nations the major military Power of the late War, and I think it is from that point of view that the sense of disappointment has been so profound in all the developments that have since taken place.
  I think it is fair to take the point of view that Germany did look forward to a permanent seat on the Council of the League, and I think, in view of the fact that ever since 1919 the permanent seats have been reserved exclusively for great Powers, it was a fair and obvious commentary that, when this great event did take place, when the reconciliation of Germany to the work of the League in

  1137
  the world was publicly effected, not only from the point of view of Germany, but of the common sense of all thoughtful persons in all countries, Germany would be accorded a permanent seat when she came into the League. Further, I think it is a fair commentary on the situation to say that not only so, but the whole of the thoughtful citizens in this country took the view that this was an event of such great and outstanding importance that it was right and proper that a special meeting of the League should be summoned for that one particular purpcse. Thus it is that the whole common sense, practical attitude of the British people has been from the first, one of looking forward to this meeting of the League of Nations, because it would publicly announce the reconciliation of a deep and bitter military feud and the coning in of Germany to a permanent seat on the Council of the League.
  When we were rejoicing in this point of view and enjoying the fact of this substantial development in the progress of the League of Nations, there began to appear in the Press, about four weeks ay, notices, which could only have emanated from the Foreign Offices either of Paris or of Warsaw, suggesting that this solemn event of the coming in of a late enemy Power to the League was to be qualified by possible discussions and admissions of other Powers, and we in this country witnessed with great and growing alarm the whole solemn and elevated idea of Locarno being brought down into the market place for relatively pa try discussions as to which other Powers should be brought into the League at the same time. When that point of view was emphasised in the unfortunate speech of the Foreign Secretary at Birmingham, we had let loose upon the world a flood of new ideas and new points of view, until every progressive body in the country was driven to convene special meetings and ask that the Government should return to the original Locarno point of view; that is to say, that the coming League of Nations meeting should be a special occasion for the sole admission of Germany to the League, and for the according to Germany of a permanent seat upon the Council of the League.
  The House will remember how the League of Nation Union branches, from one end of the country to the other—and
  1138
  they are not as a rule guilty of acts of imprudence or of any radical criticism of Government policy—sent in resolution after resolution asking that the commonsense interpretation of the Locarno Treaty and the discussions should be adhered to by the Government, and that Germany, and Germany only, should be admitted to a permanent seat upon the Council. They House will remember how bodies like the Women's International League, the National Council for the Prevention of War, and the whole of the Labour parties and the Liberal parties throughout the country poured in hundreds and thousands of resolutions, all pointing in this same direction. Not only that, but we in this House were so concerned that we convened a special meeting of the League of Nations Union in order that we might, immediately prior to the departure of the Foreign Secretary, emphasise what we felt to be a non-party and unanimous point of view with regard to the interpretation of the real significance of the forthcoming meeting of the League. We had, in a very crowded meeting of the League of Nations Union, at. least three-fourths of the Members who were members of the party opposite, and there was an entirely unanimous declaration at that meeting asking the Foreign Secretary again to make it his only concern at the forthcoming meeting of the League that Germany, aria Germany only, should be admitted. We had, following that, a full day's discussion in this House, and I think nobody could have been under any misapprehensions as to what was the general opinion of this House, and, therefore, the representative opinion of the country, as to what the Foreign Minister should do if he was to carry out the democratic policy and the understood policy in relation to the forthcoming meeting at Geneva.
  The Foreign Secretary has admitted, in the speech that. he made this afternoon, that he had from the Prime Minister, as a primary rule for his guidance, that the main object of this meeting at Geneva was to secure the admission of Germany to the League of Nations and to secure her automatically, therefore, a permanent seat on the Council. He also said that he had several other less important regulations to guide him, and I think it is a fair commentary on those five instructions

  1139
  to say that the one of outstanding importance, the one that determined the use that should be made of the other four, was again the fact that the whole nation understood, and that he was to understand, that the primary object of this meeting at Geneva was that Germany should be brought into the League, and Germany only. We have seen in practice that the Foreign Secretary has devoted an extraordinary amount of his time in following up the substance of those conversations into which he entered, as be reminded the House this afternoon, when he was passing through Paris some weeks ago. Instead of having on all and every occasion our own Foreign Secretary saying to all whom it might concern: "The primary object of this meeting of the League of Nations is the fulfilment of the central and cardinal feature of the Locarno Pact; the one and only object at bottom that we meet for is to bring Germany into the League," he has been spending almost the whole of his time advocating and canvassing the claims of other Powers for temporary or non-permanent seats upon the Council of the League.
  I think that we are perfectly justified in taking the view that the Foreign Secretary has not interpreted either the spirit and the expressed purpose of this House, or the spirit and the expressed purpose of those five regulations which he received from the Prime Minister. He has, in practice, allowed all the nations to believe that he really was profoundly concerned either to get Spain on to the Council, or to get Poland on to the Council, and he has again and again devoted his time to that secondary issue, until the whole public opinion of this country has become profoundly dismayed by his neglect of the major premise, which alone justified his activity in Geneva. The whole of that movement culminated in the humiliating spectacle on Friday of the meeting of the Locarno representatives with M. Unden, who represents, as I think all parties in this House will agree, the real incarnation of the spirit of the League. He was brought to the humiliation of being insulted and assailed by our own Foreign Secretary for his tenacious attitude in trying to sustain the principles of the League. [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] I am quoting now from the actual report of the
  1140
  " Manchester Guardian," and, until it can be disproved, I am bound to accept that, along with reports in The Times" and other papers, as being the most reliable and the nearest approach to the facts that we, as Members of the House of Commons, can have at present on that subject.
  I want, therefore, to state very definitely why we think we have the strongest grounds for taking exception to the policy pursued by the Foreign Secretary. In the first place, we feel strongly that the Foreign Secretary was under a definite moral obligation, if he wanted to raise the question of nations other than Germany coming on the League, to go straight to Germany at the beginning, and put the case to Germany. The Foreign Secretary took enormous pride, and, as I think, justifiable pride in that he had inaugurated a, new policy in bringing about the Locarno Pact, and he went out -of his way to say that the secret of his success had been that- he had gone to Germany and invited suggestions from Germany, and that this was the- foundation of the new hope that had come into European politics. I think we are morally justified in taking the view that Germany, naturally and logically, and as a matter of common sense, should assume that she, and she alone, was coming into the Council at the last meeting, and if the Foreign Secretary wanted to draw any other conclusion than that, he was morally bound to consult with Germany, not after the thing had be-en done, not after the Prime Minister's speech, not after the flood-gates of the Press had been let loose for a fortnight, but before all this he ought to have entered into definite and direct negotiations with Germany on that issue.
  The second point we feel concerned to make is that pust as here at home, from the Birmingham speech right up to the last Debate in the House, the Foreign Secretary tried to ride two horses, when the House was definitely saying there was only one horse which could legitimately be ridden on that occasion, so at Geneva he has endeavoured to ride two horses, with the result that was foreseen by all thoughtful persons, namely, the breakdown of the negotiations. I should like to say further, in concluding the protest that I, for my part, want to make, that I view with very great concern the re-

  1141
  action of the Foreign Secretary's policy not only in Europe but throughout the rest of the world. For example, America, which, with increasing sympathy, has been drawing towards the League, which has only recently expressed its determination to come into the world court and also to take part in the preparatory conference for the consideration of world disarmament, has reacted in an extraordinarily strong, definite, bitter and even cynical way towards the whole negotiations going on in Geneva. I do not need to repeat the substance of the criticism of Mr. Houghton, the American Ambassador, in a Report just recently presented to the President of the United States. He went so far, in this Report, as to compare the League with the bad work of the Holy Alliance of 100 years ago. He stated that the nations of Europe have learned nothing from what happened between 1214–1918 and that, however we may try, England cannot save Europe from a further catastrophe.
  In other words, we are having the best men and women in the United States saying that Europe in effect is hopeless. This sort of attitude has received an enormous stimulus at a time when new hopes and new confidences were being built up on the American side from a League point of view. Not only is this so, but I would suggest, finally, that the be st thing with regard to the Locarno Pact was the suggestion that military alliances were falling into the background, that discussions about militarism and reliance on military power were going to be less and less a feature in political discussions in Europe, but in view of the open blatancy of the Italian Press as to reliance upon armaments as the only way out, in view of the smug satisfaction of militarists in Europe with the progress of this breakdown in Geneva, I venture to suggest that not only have we fallen away from the position we occupied 12, 15 and 18 months ago, in our European politics, but we have brought ourselves very near to all those awful forces which rushed out upon the world in 1914. Therefore, in the name of the League of Nations, and in the name of all those countless numbers of men and women here and abroad who want to see a real League of Nations built up, I want to protest against the whole method in which the Foreign Secretary has conducted these negotiations, and to express the hope that he will receive much
  1142
  more definite and more carefully considered instructions before he embarks further on his work of negotiating.
  Lord COLUM CRICHTON-STUART: I accept some of the statements of fact which have been made by the hon. Member who spoke last, but I must judge them from a different point of view. Hp has taken pride in the part taken by him in bringing pressure to bear on the Government to induce them to associate themselves exclusively with Germany and with the German point of view at Geneva. On the contrary, I must beg to differ from him, and I must say I deprecate that line of action by the Opposition, and by certain leaders of the League of Nations' Union. Certain charges have been made against the Government in regard to what happened in December last at Paris, and have still to be answered by the Front Bench, even though I believe the answer will be a complete answer. Even if it was not a complete answer, we are still faced with the fact that a couple of months ago, owing to certain statements made in the French Press that it was necessary aria desirable that there should be fresh entrants into the Council for the purpose of counterbalancing the entry of Germany —from that very fact that those statements were made in the French Press, it became clear there was a strong tendency for two groups of nations to be formed in the League, one group of nations in favour of new entrants and the other nations rather favouring the German point of view. The very fact that there was in process of formation those two groups created the greatest danger that could exist for the existence and for the permanence of the League of Nations.
  At that time all the Powers had already expressed an opinion as to which group they preferred to belong to, and which group they would be dissociated from. The Secretary of State at that time had not publicly compromised himself. There was an opportunity for him to come forward as a conciliant, to bring about the union of those two groups, which by their very existence constituted a real danger to the League of Nations. The opposition and certain sections of the Press brought to bear on the Government a very strong pressure to induce them to compromise themselves with one of the two sides. Of necessity that destroyed a part of the liberty of the

  1143
  Foreign Secretary; that liberty which a conciliator must have if he is to be successful. If the Italian Press, the French Press, and the Press of Europe in general were examined, it would be found the fact that pressure was being brought to bear upon His Majesty's Government in favour of Germany, was used to induce foreign nations to believe that we were in fact associated rather with Germany than with the other side. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have suggested that if once Great Britain allied itself strongly and exclusively with Germany and against the other Powers, the other Powers would withdraw from the attitude they had taken up of favour of other entrants coming into the League besides Germany.
  9.0 P.M.
  But take the case of Brazil in that connection. She was confronted with the opinion of Sweden, Germany, Britain, but with that of all the nations of Geneva, and it was not sufficient to make Brazil for one moment change her determination or the position she had taken up. There is very little doubt that that was a hopeless policy to suggest, that if we took up our position exclusively on the German side, that would have the effect of inducing the other Powers to withdraw from the attitude they had taken up. The tendency would have been, if the Government had yielded to the pressure, to make the Powers opposed to Germany and in favour of new entrants besides Germany, to coalesce and harden their attitude towards the German group of Powers. For my part, therefore, I would suggest that whatever the charges may be that still have to be answered by the Government, there is a certain responsibility resting upon the Opposition for increasing the difficulties with which the Secretary of State had to deal with at Geneva. I would remind the House that the Secretary of State and his colleagues were able to overcome a great number of those difficulties. In the end a difficulty unforeseen by any of the nations present brought the discussions to a close. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make up his mind in future upon what must be the very essence of agreement in the League —that is compromise that is the real Locarno spirit. The true spirit of the
  1144
  League really can be compressed into that one word "compromise "—a desire and a, determination to understand the point of view of other nations beside our own.
  Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: I think the Noble Lord who has just spoken is quite under a misapprehension as to the arguments which have been adduced on this side of the House. Nobody for one moment suggested that we should have allied ourselves with Germany, or anyone else. The argument on these benches has been that if we had taken from the first the straightforward line, the line of instruction which, apparently, the Cabinet gave to the Secretary of State, if such a line had been taken publicly and openly, it is our belief — a belief shared by most sections and parties in the country who have expressed their view, not only sections hostile to the Government, but in almost every reputable newspaper in this country—that such a line would have undoubtedly led to final success. That line was taken by that plucky little nation, Sweden, by the mouth of M. Unden; if we had taken it we might have successfully brought the negotiations to a final and successful issue.
  There is more than one issue in this debate, there is the criticism of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs for his handling of the negotiations. For my part, I feel dispensed from entering into that, for I would rather leave it to those who have had experience of these heavy responsibilities and wider sources of information than 1 possess. When, however, the hon. and learned Member for Bassetlaw (Sir E. Hume-Williams) expresses his surprise that we on these benches have brought forward this Motion, I really myself stand surprised at the moderation and restraint with which the criticisms have been made. It is not only from one group or party that this criticism has come. It has come, as I said in reply to the Noble Lord, from every section of the country, and from almost every well-informed and reputable publicist and newspaper.
  But I want to look rather to the future, and to inquire what is going to happen between now and September. I do not agree with the Noble Lord that there is any chance of the League of Nations be-

  1145
  ing killed or crumbling into ruins. associate myself far more with the view Of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), that the League of Nations is not the work of the lands of a few statesmen, it is the child of circumstance, brought into the world o meet a need which is felt increasingly by every civilised nation. If the League of Nations broke up in confusion on some occasion, men in every country of the, world would set to work to build it up again, because the world has now reached;such a stage of civilisation that we cannot afford to do without it. Therefore, I would assume that the task of statesmanship in regard to the League is rather to strengthen its constitution and to devise a technique, a method, of expressing the views and the needs which all civilised nations feel for conciliation and agreement, to encourage those forces which are making for peace and which desire that disputes should be nettled in an atmosphere of reason, to encourage those who desire, in the phrase used at the beginning of the War by the then Prime Minister, to see the enthronement of public right in Europe, and to check those forces which make for war, rivalry, international jealousy and competitive armaments. The task of statesmanship is to do this as quickly as t can be done. It cannot be done in a day. The task of statesmanship is to set to work to build up its constitution, so that in the hour of need it may be ready.
  Therefore, I would say that the constitution of the League is a vital, a fundamental point. When the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was explaining three weeks ago what his policy was going to be at Geneva, he referred mainly to the primary task devolving upon him of getting Germany into the League, and lie referred to the constitution of the Council of the League, and the question whether there is to be any increase in the permanent or non-permanent members, as "a minor point." He qualified it. a little more by saying a minor or a subsidiary point, or words to that effect—but "a minor point" were the words he used. This point of the constitution of the League is absolutely vital and fundamental, and it is not one which the peoples of the world can suffer to be left to their statesmen. The League of Nations is the property of the civilised
  1146
  nations of the world, and if you are going to alter the constitution of the League you must carry with you the public opinion of the civilised nations of the world. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs referred this afternoon to public opinion having been excited in various countries—I think the words he used were "expressed prematurely" in various countries—on a question which had to be decided at Geneva. The statesmen who represent the nations on the League Council must regard public opinion as the foundation and buttress of the League. The League of Nations is not their property, it is the property of the peoples of the world, and if you are going to alter and modify the constitution of the League you must carry with you the public opinion of all civilised countries.
  For the purposes of this argument I am. not concerned as to whether Germany was consulted or not when this question of the alteration in the membership of the Council was raised, or whether she ought to have been 'consulted; whether the onus was upon Germany to raise the question of the constitution of the League, or whether the onus was upon the other Locarno Powers to tell Germany that it was intended to alter the constitution. If it ought not to have been sprung upon Germany, I'say it ought not to have been sprung upon public opinion in this country. Public opinion here ought to have been warned that this question was going to be raised, and ought to have been given an opportunity of expressing itself. Here we have one of the most democratic constitutions, if not the most democratic Constitution, of any country in the world. Parliament is sovereign—to all intents and purposes this House is sovereign. If this House chose, when it met first after a General' Election, to abolish the House of Lords and to abolish the Monarchy, the necessary Measures could be passed through under the Parliament Act within three years; but we know that in point of practice no Measure affecting the Constitution, not even an extension of the franchise, would be allowed to pass until it 'had been approved at a General Election and until all the issues had been widely canvassed in the country and public opinion had fully expressed itself. In the United States of America, which. has the finest and noblest example of a

  1147
  written Constitution, it is necessary before they can make any amendment to it to carry those amendments by a vote of two-thirds of Congress and vote of two-thirds of the States in the Union. Therefore, if you are going to alter the constitution of the League you must see that the statesmen who represent the nations on the Council are carrying with them public opinion in all the civilised countries of the world.
  For my own part I admit that I am not convinced by the arguments in favour of the enlargement of the Council. I do not feel there ought to be added to the permanent members of the Council any States other than the great Powers. But I am not going into that argument; the argument is well known, and the case against it has been expressed in very powerful speeches in this House and in letters to the "Times" by Lord Phillimore and others. As to the non-permanent members of the League, surely this is a matter in which the voice of the Assembly rather than the voice of the Council must he decisive. This is a matter which affects them, and is essentially a matter which must be thoroughly canvassed, and the public opinion of all countries known, before any attempt is made to increase the number of non-permanent members. Certainly it cannot be clone as the result of a compact between the Locarno or any other group of powers. To that extent, undoubtedly, the representative of Brazil was right when he said that the League was not made for Locarno but that Locarno must be brought into the framework of the League. It could only be done if public opinion is convinced not merely of the necessity of the changes, but that the changes proposed have been considered, not in relation to the affairs of a particular group of Powers, but solely on their merits and in relation to the better and smoother working of the League in the future. Our task is not to kill or to save the League of Nations, not merely to use it as an adjunct to old-world diplomacy, and, above all, not to belittle or patronise it; but so to shape and mould and strengthen its constitution and procedure as to make it more responsive to public opinion, more powerful to resist the forces of jealousy
  1148
  and nationalism and distractions of all sort. which interfere with and confuse the work of the League; make it less a, Council of the diplomatists and more the open forum of the nations of the world.
  Major HILLS: On this question I refuse to be a pessimist and I refuse to believe that the League of Nations has not been strengthened by what has happened. It seems to me that throughout the whole of the speeches which have been made by hon. Members opposite they have fallen into an error. Of course, the Foreign Secretary has made great efforts to secure peace, and yet he is said by those efforts to be endangering the peace of Europe. When one examines the basis of this charge we are always brought back to a talk which the Foreign Secretary had in Paris in January last., and from the conversation which took place then, a huge structure of suspicion has been built up largely by innuendoes and the Foreign Secretary has been represented as a Malign figure moving from Paris to London and London to Geneva, spreading suspicion and carrying out a crusade of ill-doing and ill-will, and doing all he can to wreck the peace of Europe.
  The Leader of the Opposition based his case on this conversation that took place in Paris in January last. The argument is that, at Locarno, in the mind of some Locarno Powers, there was an undisclosed clause that Poland should be added as a member of the Council. The second stage is that the Foreign Secretary met M. Briand in Paris and agreed to bring in Poland. Then we have the proceedings at Geneva, which were said to be inspired by the same feeling, but before he got to Geneva we were told that the Foreign Secretary deceived the House of Commons, the country and the Prime Minister, and went to Geneva and maintained arguments in flat contradiction to the instructions given to him by the British Government. What does all this amount to? It all rests upon a conversation which was not heard at all by the Leader of the Opposition, and from this the right hon. Gentleman has made out all his charges.
  The basis of British policy was laid down by the Prime Minister s speech some time ago, and he then told us that we were under an obligation to Spain, but there was no condition as to time or

  1149
  occasion, and beyond that we were pledged to no Power whatever. The Leader of the Opposition quoted from a French newspaper a statement to the effect that the Treaty of Locarno reestablishes the old European alliances. I do not know whether the right lion. Gentleman agrees with that statement. I do not think he does, but at any rate he should bear in mind the authority he gives to that statement by the mere fact of quoting it. I think myself that it is a very dangerous thing for a man in the position of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to allow a misleading statement of that sort to go forth. With regard to what has been said about the future peace of the world, it seems to me that the most fruitful thing we can do is to consider that future and see what we ought to do, and how we ought to secure peace.
  I think all parties will be agreed that the first thing we ought to do is to get Germany into the League of Nations, and I hope that will be done next September. Some hon. Members, have been arguing that the machinery of the League has broken down and that the constitution of the Council should be amended. They also advocate that the procedure should he changed, but I want to utter a word of caution on that point. I hope that we shall not encourage the enlargement of the Council beyond the representatives of the Great Powers, because when you depart from that principle I know of no line you can draw. If you decide to admit Spain, why not Poland; if you admit Poland why not Yugo-Slavia or Brazil. There is no rule by which you can discriminate between those countries. Another point is that I think it would be a very dangerous thing to change the system of voting by adopting the decision of a majority. At present the Council adopt the procedure of unanimity, and I am perfectly certain that that procedure is the only one which should be used in such an organisation as the Council of the League.
  I have said that I was not a pessimist. I believe that the true way to look at what has happened is this. The League is a new institution and has new ideas behind it, but the League has come into the old world, and the old world diplomacy and the balance of power remains. We cannot expect the League to shape
  1150
  that old world at once. What occurred at Geneva was the first clash of the old and the new. Some people think the old diplomacy won and damaged the League so severely that the League cannot count. I do not see it. I think the balance of victory remains on the side of the League and that that balance will grow greater and greater as time goes on, So long as you vote by unanimity, it is open to any one Power to block, and that you must accept. So you will in the future often get occurrences such as this. Even after the world is educated you will get the conflict of will on the Council. You will get some Power which, for some reason or another will, and does, stand out against the wish of the majority. To say that is a reason for pessimism seems to me to be going very much off the track.
  The result of the recent conflict is that the League has won and the old diplomacy has lost. Brazil has vetoed the election of Germany to a permanent seat on the Council. I should think that Brazil has done an action which she will regret very much indeed. The consequences of that action will come on to Brazil and not on to the League. Things like this are bound to happen. No one who has seen anything of the League can doubt its real vitality, and the tremendous force of public opinion all over Europe that is behind it. Though you may have a check here and feel that what you want to do is not being done, still this old Europe of ours is moving forward. ft is getting on to a better and higher level than before, and slowly the spirit of common action is winning in Europe. I believe that the effect of what was done at Geneva, instead of checking, will increase and hasten the League force in Europe.
  Mr. THURTLE: I would like to congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down and the hon. and learned Member for Bassetlaw (Sir E. Hume-Williams), who is no longer in his place, on the complete way they have made up their peace with the Treasury Bench. Two or three weeks ago they were involved in a kind of incipient rebellion against the Government on this very issue. Now they have covered the Foreign Secretary, without any justification whatever, with the most slavish adulation. I cannot help thinking of a story Macaulay tells about the great Commoner, Pitt. His Back Bench Mem-

  1151
  bers at one time were severely critical of him; at least when they were in the coffee houses of the town. But reports show that when they came to the House of Commons they dared not lift their eyes higher than the buckle of his shoe. It seems to me that the moral courage of the Back Bench Conservative Members is of the same quality. They quail before the monocle of the Foreign Secretary. The reason why I believe we are going into the Lobby against the Government this evening may be put briefly in a few words. We contend that the Foreign Secretary misled the House of Commons and the people of this country, and we contend that when he got to Geneva he failed to carry out the wishes of the people of this country. I can establish that point. May I ask the House to allow me to quote this from the speech of the Foreign Secretary before he went to Geneva:
  " We share the regret that is so widely felt here that the large issues as to the composition of the League should arise on this occasion and should have to be discussed now. We did not raise them; we did not instigate anybody to raise them at this time, and since I have been attending these meetings I have sought, as far as was in my own power in such conversations—and there have been many conversations—to postpone those larger issues to a later date." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1926; col. 1657, Vol. 192.]
  We take that point about the conversations. The Foreign Secretary told us earlier this evening that he had had conversations in Paris with M. Briand and also the Spanish Ambassador, and at that conversation with M. Briand the question of the admission of Poland was considered. Now the Foreign Secretary says he has never encouraged the idea of enlarging the Council. What attitude did he take up on that occasion? Did he say definitely and categorically, "Under no circumstances can I consider the addition of Poland to the Council until Germany has been admitted "? No, he adopted a much more equivocal attitude than that. He said," I cannot give you any pledge now. I must wait till I have consulted my Cabinet." As far as Poland is concerned, he failed to carry out the terms of the statement he made to the House of Commons two weeks ago. In regard to Spain, the case is even more damning. The right hon. Gentleman met the Spanish Ambassador
  1152
  and he renewed his assurances—these are his own words—to the Spanish Ambassador, that Britain would support her claim to a permanent seat on the Council of the League. He made no reservation, no qualification to the effect that this would not take place till after Germany had been admitted as a permanent member of the Council. If he was really speaking the truth in saying he would never encourage the idea of enlarging the Council at the present time, he would have told the Spanish Ambassador in the most unequivocal language that he did not intend to support her claim on this occasion. On that point his case falls to the ground. There is the other point as to whether he represented the wishes of the people of this country. He said this in the Debate:
  " The one thing, the one solution the British Government will not lend itself to under any circumstances whatever, is that it will be no party to trying to recreate in the Council o: the League camps of opposing forces which were the curse of Europe before the War."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1925; col. 1660, Vol. 192.]
  Can the Foreign Secretary really seriously come before this House of Commons tonight and say that while he was at Geneva he faithfully followed the principle enunciated there? What about all these plots and counter-plots, all these intrigues and bargainings? What about his most shameful bullying of Sweden because Sweden stood firm by the policy which this country wanted carried out? Have not we every right., in view of the shabby record of what took place at Geneva last week, to say that the Foreign Secretary, by his lack of courage, if you will, did deliberately countenance the creation, within the framework of the League itself, of this very balancing of power which he condemned so strenuously only two or three weeks ago?
  I have not time to say all that I wanted to say on this point, but I cannot sit down without protesting in the strongest terms against the way in which the Foreign Secretary treated Sweden. He has given Sweden a great eulogy to-day, and he did it also at the general Assembly of the League, but, when the moment was critical, our Foreign Secretary became so hysterical, he. became so unbalanced in his judgment, that he actually accused Sweden of being an agent of Germany.

  1153
  Someone challenged the statement just now, though I do not think that challenge could be maintained. This report in the "Manchester Guardian" is corroborated In, the "Daily Telegraph" and all the other newspaper correspondents who were at Geneva. He saw the British Press representatives, and he told them in. plain English, and they were horrified at the suggestion—even the Conservative representatives were horrified at the suggestion —he told them in plain English that Sweden was acting the part of an agent of Germany; and now he comes here and vers Sweden with praise.
  I have no more time to develop the few points that I wish to develop, but let me say this final word. I gather that, in endeavouring to indict the Foreign Secretary to-night, we are also indicting the Government. The Government is going to stand by its Foreign Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear ! "] Very well. The Government in this House is in a very powerful position. It has a tremendous majority, and, by reason of its strength, it may be al le to support the liability of a weak Foreign Secretary, but it is another matter when you come to the country. I do not. question the honesty and the integrity of the Foreign Secretary, but what I do question is his judgment, and, even if the Prime Minister is content to have in the Foreign Office a man of most amiable intuitions, a man of the most upright character, but a man who is enviously no match for the other diplomats or Europe—if he is content to have such a man in the Foreign Office, I am quite certain that the people of this country, because of the tremendous issues that are involved for them in questions of foreign policy to-day, cannot afford to have such a mart at the Foreign Office. I believe that, so long as we have the present Foreign Secretary in charge of tin. Foreign Office, with the weakness which he has made so apparent in the course of these negotiations, the happiness and safety of the people of this country are going to. be continually in jeopardy. Therefore, although I hate to make an individual seem to be a scapegoat, I shall go into the Lobby to-night and record a vote of censure against the Foreign Secretary, because I want to protect the future happiness and wellbeing of the people of this country.
  Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: This Government, during the last 15 months, has had such an almost perfect record in all questions of social life, that I assume the Opposition, whether they be Liberals or the Labour party, think it necessary to attack the Foreign Minister over the question of what has happened at. Geneva. But in doing so, I think they belittle the question, and miss the point altogether, because it is perfectly absurd. to try to put on to a single individual the responsibility for what is happening in Europe at the present. time. I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was the one honest man who went to Geneva with disinterested motives. On the other hand, I am not going to admit that he met everyone there in exactly the same mood as himself. There are a. terrible number of secret intrigues taking place in Europe at the present. time, and a number of parties were quite determined to make a failure of the present meeting at Geneva, and, if possible, to break up the constitution of the League or throw discredit on the League; but to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. for Foreign Affairs was responsible for that is, I think, not only a cruel, but an absolutely inaccurate accusation. The causes lie much more beneath the surface.
  I have a fair knowledge of various countries in Europe, and the one thing that always strikes me as strange is that we, who should be the country which is least interested in the League, because we are on an island, and we are naturally defended by our water frontier; and yet you find that we take the League far more seriously than any Continental country does. The French, although they have great hopes that something may arise out of the League which will enable them to live ill the future in greater security, have none of that extraordinary faith in what the League can do as have a very large number of people within our own shores. I can never understand why that is the case, hut I am inclined to think it is because Continental countries have for so long been up against real facts in Europe, while we have not been up against the same facts until we fought in the Great War.

  1155
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition approached a very dangerous subject, but—I suppose owing to the fact that he has been, not only Prime Minister of this country, but also Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—stopped short at the most interesting part of his story. He asked a very pertinent question when he said, "Are we really prepared to believe that it was Brazil that broke up the final settlement that might have been arrived at at the eleventh hour?" He did not name any nation; he said nothing more after that at all, but left the rest to our own conjectures. On the Continent of Europe, however, if you are in Paris, if you are in Rome, if you are in Berlin, if you are in Madrid, there is only one name mentioned in connection with this affair. Although the voice was the voice of Senhor Mello-Franco, and the monkey-wrench was thrown by Brazil, it is perfectly well known that the final effort to stop the settlement was made by the Signor Mussolini and by him alone.
  I am not letting any cat out of the bag, because every single Italian on the Continent of Europe at the present time is bragging and boasting that his country has stopped this settlement which was proposed and nearly arrived at by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Yet, in face of this fact, the Opposition deliberately blame our own Foreign Secretary for what has happened at Geneva. I think that no man has greater reason to be proud of his record of really serious endeavour to obtain permanent peace in Europe than the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, because he did something that no one else has done. He got a definite Pact signed at Locarno, which, to my humble mind, is of far greater value, because it is signed between Germany, France, England, and Italy, than the whole of your League of Nations. As long as the Pact of Locarno stands, whether the League of Nations disappears or not, you are not going to have war in Europe. The only thing that worries me at present is that I do not know whether, owing to the failure to admit Germany into the League of Nations, the Pact of Locarno still stands
  1156
  or not. I should like to hear that question answered to-night, because as long as it stands it is comparatively unimportant what happens to the League.
  Another point in regard to which we have every reason to be grateful is that this tremendous breakdown in the working of the League has occurred over a question of procedure and of its constitution, rather than at a moment when it had to settle some great question which might have led to peace or war. Because had there been a great issue before the League before its constitution has been arranged on a definite and permanent basis—had we had this same state of affairs arise then as has arisen now—not only would it have been a disservice to Europe in the cause of peace, but it might very likely have led to a war which might. otherwise have been avoidable. But there seems to be a very great difficulty ahead of the League in the future, unless you can get it on a permanent working basis. The great mistake we have made is that we have forgotten the early lessons of the Bible. If you read the history of the Tower of Babel, which was really the first attempt to found a League of Nations of the world, they had one great advantage over us, that at that time they all spoke the same language. It was only after attempting to build the tower which was to lead up to this wonderful heaven of peace and prosperity that the nations of the world, according to Biblical history, acquired different languages. In our own efforts to arrive at this millennium of world peace, we already find that the whole Council of the nations assembled at Geneva speak in different languages, exactly as they did during the epoch of the Tower of Babel two or three thousand years age, if it ever occurred at all. Although the outlook is not perhaps particularly healthy from the point of view of the League at the present minute, I think it has enormously strengthened the Pact arrived at at Locarno.
  There is one other point for which i am extremely grateful to circumstances —and I think the Leader of the Opposition will agree with me also—that the scheme known as the Protocol never came into force. Because had it come into force you might have had this same trouble at Geneva as we have seen at

  1157
  present, but there would have been contingents of troops marching from all over Europe, and they might have come into open collision over the settlement even of a question like the constitution of the League. But I am certain that every serious-minded person in the House is working for permanent peace, and therefore we all have a common end in view. Then why attack the Foreign Secretary in the way he has been attacked to-day? He is the one man who has really stood for peace in Europe. He has done more than anyone to uphold the British tradition of fair play, and as long as the Pact of Locarno holds, as long as you have this: agreement between the really great Powers of Europe, I do not think it really matters very much whether Brazil or any other of the minor Powers endeavours to stop the entry of Germany into the League for reasons which may seem obscure at present, bat which are clear when you make a minute examination of all the intrigues which have been taking plane at Geneva during the last three weeks. We have a splendid record in the cause of peace, and I sincerely hope the House will to-night give an enormous majority to the Government, and to our Foreign Minister to pursue a course of policy which, if carried out, if it cannot ensure peace in the future, will go a very long way towards guaranteeing it for many years to come.
  Mr. THOMAS: I am not sure whether the Foreign Secretary will thank the last speaker for his support. It is true that he opened out with a clear declaration that there was at least one honest states-mar. in Europe. That happens to be the present Foreign Secretary.
  Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: "Disinterested" was the word.
  Mr. THOMAS: That is so. He is the only disinterested statesman, and all the other people are not only interested, but intriguing for their own interests.
  Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Exactly.
  Mr. THOMAS: That is a contribution to foreign politics which I am sure the Foreign Secretary will appreciate from one of his supporters. But, curiously enough, the hon. and gallant Gentleman
  1158
  could not have heard the Foreign Secretary.
  Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I did.
  Mr. THOMAS: Then, having heard him, he wanted to say in the most diplomatic words possible how far from the truth he was when he was talking about Italy. It was left to you, an honest and disinterested back bencher, to say what apparently the right hon. Gentleman dare not say. We heard from the Foreign Secretary that one of the triumphs of Geneva, one of the things he was most grateful for, one of the memories he cherished, was the loyal, consistent, disinterested support of Italy. In diplomatic language the hon. and gallant Gentleman says the right hon. Gentleman is not speaking the truth. I leave the Foreign Secretary to take the consolation that, however different his views may be, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is going to trot into the Lobby and reconcile his vote with his speech. As a matter of fact, the difference between this side and that on this vote was, again, equally innocently stated in a sentence by the hon. and gallant Gentleman that a number of people on that side did not quite have the courage to say. He said, "Never mind what happened at Geneva. Never mind the failure of Geneva. Never mind the possible breakdown of the League of Nations. Thank God, Locarno is safe!" That is the tribute we are to pay to the right hon. Gentleman. Just imagine what we are going to vote on! We have to go into the Lobby and by our vote let it be known to the world that the one thing we are to hand down as a success is that an agreement made in December is certainly not broken in March. Not only the last speech but speech after speech to-night from the other side has been to this effect: "What have you to complain about? It may be perfectly true what you have said about Geneva and the consequences that are expected to follow, but, thank God, Locarno is still safe !" That is the memento of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. That is what he is going to hand to posterity —a three months Treaty not yet broken But it has been badly punctured.
  A few years ago, I was called upon to defend an engine driver who ran by a signal. There was a serious collision, and

  1159
  a large number of people were killed. it was a very serious accident. In defence of the unfortunate driver, I pleaded that it was foggy weather, that it was true the signals were against him, and that it was true he had not seen the danger signal, but although he had run past the signal he had done his best. The chairman, who, incidentally, was a very prominent Conservative, said: "The damage has already been done. He failed to see the signal that was- there for everybody to see. It was a warning that he ought to have noticed. The consequences were so disastrous, that I cannot trust him with such a responsibility again." And he sacked him. It was a terrible punishment, but in the view of that Conservative chairman it fitted the crime.
  10.0 P.M.
  I am going to say to my right hon. Friend to-night, "Not one danger signal but a score of danger signals were there, staring you in the face. You ought to have seen where you were going. You ought to have known that the track you were following was not the track that the people of this country wanted you to follow hut the track about which they had warned you in advance." I am not concerned with arguing, however important it may be, as to whether Brazil, Poland or Spain were responsible for the mishap. These things in their particular place may he argued and may be important but I am content to submit that the Prime Minister himself brought the indictment against ripe Foreign Secretary, a fortnight ago, in a debate which was brought about not by the Opposition but by the revolt of a large number of hon. Members opposite, who have been apologising all to-day. They felt so keenly that they thought it necessary to invite the Prime Minister to try to square them up. The Prime Minister, seeing that things were going wrong, and satisfied that the Foreign Secretaty had made a hopeless muck of it, and having heard the whispers of his disgruntled supporters, said to himself, "I had better step into the breach. They will, at least, treat me as an honest man, if nothing else. After all, that is worth votes in the Lobby." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear ! "] Exactly. Just as it will mean votes in the Lobby later on. They will say, "Never mind what the
  1160
  Foreign Secretary said or did. The Prime Minister will put us into the Lobby." The Prime Minister uttered these words in the debate a fortnight ago:
  " I myself have every confidence that my right hon. Friend, in spite of these difficulties, these aggravated difficulties, will be able to achieve the primary object of his visit to Geneva, that is to get Germany into the League and into the Council."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1926; col. 1697, Vol. 192.]
  That was the Prime Minister's testimony. That was the Prime Minister's invitation to his supporters to go into the Lobby. It is true they do not want much persuading. They welcomed the excuse. The Prime Minister, having found the excuse, they trotted into the Lobby. [HON. MEMBERS: "And will to-night !"] Yes, to-night and to-morrow night, and they will continue to do it until near the Election, when they will begin to think. The Prime Minister, having intimated clearly that he was asking the House to vote because he was satisfied that the Foreign Secretary was going to succeed in bringing Germany into the League, we shall go into the Division Lobby to-night to intimate to the Prime Minister what he himself ought to know, namely, that it did not come off. If there had been some justifiable excuse for the Foreign Secretary we would be the people to look for it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] Yes, our respect, our toleration, our regard for the right hon. Gentleman is such that it would not have been left for hon. Members opposite to find an excuse for him. We would have done it. It is impossible. You have not only let us down, you have let the Prime Minister down badly, and that is something we cannot tolerate. Therefore, having deceived us and let him down, we are determined to let you go.
  I put it quite seriously to the House that, whatever may have been said of Locarno and the Locarno spirit, it will not be denied that the country was led to believe—this House believed and the whole world was told—that the one thing behind the spirit of Locarno was that the entry of Germany into the League of Nations would be the public expression of a real reconciliation. That is why we attached importance to it. Brazil, Poland or Spain, are all secondary to

  1161
  the fact that this great enemy Power was to be admitted into the League on equal terms with us. Therefore, the charge we make against the right hon. Gentleman is a very simple but a very serious one. He himself admitted this afternoon that Germany left Locarno with the idea, to put it no higher, that when the Conference took place at Geneva the only question to be discussed was her entry into the League. Those are his own words. I put it to the House that, if Germany was left with the impression, she had grounds for that belief; and her belief was that no other question was involved.
  What was the first cause of suspicion? What wais it that happened to cause Members on the other side of the House, not on this side, to be suspicious? It was the Birmingham speech. That speech was the first ground of suspicion, and it created all the intrigues that ultimately resulted in the disaster at Geneva. The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon said, "I did not commit myself to Brazil, I did not commit myself to Spain, I did not commit myself to Poland." That is an easy way of saying," I did not commit my Government," because that is the real point which he emphasised. He said, "I had not consulted my colleagues; I made that quite clear. I made it perfectly clear that I would have to consult my Cabinet." What we are entitled to ask is: Did he, although he did make it clear that he was not committing his Government or his Cabinet colleagues —I believe that may be perfectly true, and I would not challenge it—did he leave the impression on the minds of the se who conversed with him that his own views were in accord with theirs? That is an entirely different matter. He car be perfectly honest and legitimately say to this House, "I made it clear that I was not committing my Cabinet," but it is equally true that he could have left on the minds of those he was dealing with the impression that at least his own views were in a different direction. And that is in evidence. It is evidenced by the last Debate. Why all this talk about the free hand? Why did this House feel suspicions about the free hand? It was because we wanted to know what the right hon. Gentleman was going to say in advance, because we felt that France and other countries had already had an intimation as to what his views were, and
  1162
  that we were committed in advance; in fact, that there was no free hand.
  As far as we are concerned we join issue first on the ground that a serious, I hope not a mortal, blow has been struck at the prestige of the League of Nations, I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) describe his conception of the League of Nations. He said it was a creation, an instrument, due to high idealism and material considerations. I do not believe it is due to either. I believe that why there is support for and belief in the League of Nations, why we on these benches and the workers support the principle of the League of Nations, a League of all nations and of all peoples, is not on the grounds given by the right hon. Member for Oxford University but because the hell and horrors of war have been brought home to the people of this country and we arc seized with the idea that this is the one instrument that opens the way for peace. We believe the right hon. Gentleman has struck a mortal blow at it, and we want to say to him, and to the House, that if the League of Nations falls, if he has succeeded in killing it, we will forge an instrument to take its place. The workers will not stand by and allow the nations to go to war as they have in the past. If the League of Nations or Governments allow intrigues and suspicions to provide the germs of a future war, then the workers will substitute for it some other body that will bring about international peace. We shall go into the. Lobby to-night with regret, regret that we have to give a personal vote, but at the same time we feel that it is a duty and an obligation upon us. Just as any humble individual would be punished for a failure, we say deliberately to the right hon. Gentleman "You were given one chance; you missed it. The House of Commons tried to give you another; you failed to take it. We refuse to give you a third."
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: My right hon. Friend who has just spoken, in his closing words, has expressed a regret which I fully share, and share on two grounds. I regret that it should be necessary to impugn the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. I regret also that it should be necessary to conduct a foreign affairs Debate in this House with such sharply marked division of opinion as appears in the House

  1163
  to-night. It has been our tradition for many generations to keep foreign policy as far as possible out of the arena of party controversy. It was in that spirit that the League of Nations Union Committee of this House, an informal body, but one of the most important in the House, on which all parties are represented, passed a Resolution on 22nd February expressing a view from which no one dissented in any quarter. It expressed
  " apprehension that the meeting of the League Assembly, convened specially for electing Germany to membership and to a permanent seat on the Council, should be made the occasion for further fundamental changes in the constitution of the Council, and urged the Government to offer the most strenuous opposition to any further enlargement of the Council."
  After that Resolution, on the very next day, the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary made his speech at Birmingham. It was that which at once made this subject highly controversial. It was not the House itself; it was the right hon. Gentleman. His speech at Birmingham was received with consternation in almost every part of the country, for it showed quite clearly that the tight hon. Gentleman had in the course of his negotiations, in the conduct of affairs abroad as well as here, contemplated additions to the Council at the very meeting in March at which Germany was to be admitted a member of the League. It was not so much that the people of this country feared an enlargement of the League. It was that they wished to see the smooth passage of Germany into the League, and that smooth passage was certainly imperilled if all the old rivalries of the world were to be aroused at that very meeting—controversies between Brazil and Spain, Poland and Holland and Sweden, and lesser Powers. If all that was to be mixed up with the entry of Germany into the League, her entry was bound to be impeded.
  The ordinary man, with the plainest possible view and the most meagre knowledge of foreign affairs, out of that plain common sense that the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) commended this afternoon, knew more apparently than was known by the Foreign Secretary. For be knew that that meant danger and possibly shipwreck. Now the right hon. Gentle-
  1164
  man comes back to this country describing not a shipwreck nor a danger, but a tragedy. That was not the description given by the Noble Lord. He said that all was well. He said that the Foreign Secretary had returned from Geneva with a very good record, and that all was well. [Interruption.] Yes, but that was not the description given by the 'Foreign Secretary himself. The Foreign Secretary said it was a tragedy. The right hon. Gentleman added that it was a bitter disappointment. [Interruption.] If the House will only be patient, it will see that I am not going to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. Here is the concluding speech on the last scenes at Geneva. The right hon. Gentleman's speech is reported verbatim in the "Times" of 18th March last. I take the paragraph which says:
  " It is indeed a tragedy,"
  and further on he uses the words
  " a bitter disappointment."
  What is true in regard to this is that it has in it all the elements of a tragedy and one could see from the beginning—the ordinary Englishman saw from the beginning—that we were heading for disaster. The disaster has come, and it is a most deplorable thing that we in this House should have to take any action of this kind. But the question is of great importance, and we should be failing in our duty if we did not take such action. May I give a very short account of what has taken place? The gathering in March was to be an ad hoc gathering, and if nothing else had been done then except the entry of Germany, Locarno would have been crowned, and we should have started on a new era in Europe. The very moment anything else was interpolated into the agenda, and especially when this was done on encouragement given behind closed doors and by secret communications and conversations, at that very moment the whole prospect of Germany entering was put in jeopardy. I fully appreciate, as everybody who has been in office does, the enormous advantage which comes from personal contact and personal conversations, but I hope I may be forgiven for making one observation. In all negotiations which are carried on with foreign Ministers it is a very dangerous thing to negotiate with them in their own tongue.

  1165
  The right hon. Gentleman has the very peat advantage of being a life-long French scholar, and, owing to the good fortune of having a far-sighted father, he scent a great deal of his youth in Paris. He certainly had that great advantage over some of his predecessors, but it may also be a limitation. If the negotiations were carried on in French, it is quite possible that some of the niceties of that language may have been missed by the, right hon. Gentleman. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, it is quite possible, and I have no doubt. that is the real explanation of the right hon. Gentleman saying, quite honestly and straightforwardly at that Box, that he entered into no obligation, no promise, and no engagement. It is quite possible that the turn of a sentence may have given an impression which led to the unfortunate misunderstanding—as he put it.. I am quite entitled to express that view. I have seen a good deal of negotiation with foreigners in various capacities, and I know how dangerous it is to depart from One's own language. That has been the experience of many before me, and if the right hon. Gentleman had conducted the whole of these conversations in England, if he had kept a record of everything that was said, and if he had made a clean breast of it at the Box ton g-ht, he would no doubt have been able to produce a far stronger case than the statement he made.
  Let me proceed with the narrative. The Council met in March, but Germany was told for the first time officially on 10th February that rival claims were to be considered. Herr Stresemann said that when they were invited to Geneva, they were invited to a discussion with the signatories to the Rhineland Pact, at which a desire was expressed to Germany that for her entry into the League she should declare her agreement in principle with the granting of other permanent seats on the Council in addition to that given to Germany. Herr Stresemann said:
  " The German delegation can make no such declaration, and it would regard it in; a serious violation of its obligations as a future member of the League and the Council to do so."
  That exactly fulfilled the anticipation which we had in this country. The right hon. Gentleman has never told us whether he participated in pressing Germany to
  1166
  depart from that view and to agree to an extension of the League. He has never told us whether he participated in exercising pressure upon Mr. linden, but it is quite certain that Germany stood firm, and the right hon. Gentleman stated to the Press that private conversations were useless, and that it was necessary to leave everything to the Council.
  He did so, but he did so at the last moment, and to suggest now that the whole of the breakdown is due to Brazilian action is, I am afraid, to take a very meagre, partial, and trivial view of the tragedy which we have unfortunately witnessed. The position of Brazil itself is worth considering. The Brazilians thought they were entitled to a seat on the Council. They wished to go in as permanent members. They were proud of their position in South America as the largest State, very probably the most populous, and apparently one of the most wealthy. Brazil had, however, given indications before the meeting of the Council in March—indeed, early in the year—to Germany that she was not likely to object to Germany finding a permanent seat there. The Brazilian threat made at Geneva, was only taken seriously in the last two days of the Geneva meeting. Thereupon, Britain and France appeared to have made representations at Rio, that is to say, on Tuesday, 15th March, almost the last day.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: My representations were made- long before that date, and before I went to Geneva.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I rather think the right hon. Gentleman repeated thorn again on 15th March.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: No. I repeated them as long as I had any chance, any possible hope that they might be successful.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Am I to gather from that that the right hon. Gentleman repeated them on 15th March, at the last moment., just before the breakdown?
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes. I repeated them up to the last moment, and if there had been any chance of the Brazilian delegate receiving fresh instructions, I should have asked the Council to adjourn any decision until those instructions had been received. The Brazilian

  1167
  envoy said his instructions were imperative and final, and prevented him from receiving any new instructions.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: It was a most deplorable thing that the advice of the right hon. Gentleman was not taken. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed !"] The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to every credit he can get out of his activities at Geneva, but certainly, if he did so on 15th March, he only joined hands with the other representatives of the Latin-American States, for they also made representations to Brazil on 15th March. But before any reply could be received to the telegram which they sent out, the right hon. Gentleman had, I think, communicated to the Germans the fact that Brazil was standing firm, and that there was no possibility of their giving way.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but if he attaches any particular importance to the date of 15th March, my last representations were made earlier.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Then it was left to the Latin-American States, and the Latin-American States intervened at the last moment, and the right hon. Gentleman did not do so. So far from the Brazilian ease being strengthened by association with the Latin-American States, it is clear that they severed themselves from Brazil at this moment. On 15th March, and before any reply could have been received from Brazil or from the Latin-American States, I understand M. Briand and the right hon. Gentleman told the Germans finally that nothing more would be done. I wonder whether it would not have been as well to have waited to see whether the Latin-American pressure would have produced anything from Brazil.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN made an observation which was not heard in the Reporters' Gallery.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: They were told then that the last stage in the transaction had been reached, and nothing could be done because the Brazilians had received their final instructions.
  Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I am very reluctant to interrupt, but in these international matters it is a little difficult to
  1168
  sit quite silent while views or statements are attributed to me which I have not held. I made my last and final appeal on Sunday, the 14th. On Monday, the 15th I had every reason to believe from the declarations of the Brazilian Ambassador that further appeal was futile, and would have no result. And on Tuesday morning— I think I am right in my date—M. Briand and I went to the Germans to consult as to what was to be done in the then probable contingency of Brazil maintaining her veto, and our communiqué as published in the Press was the communiqué contingent on that veto.
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the account of what took place at the last stages. The whole of the proceedings there lead to only one conclusion, and that is that the advice given by public opinion in this country was sound advice—to follow the simple rule, that in diplomacy you should attempt only one thing at a time. Every departure from that rule has led us into the entanglements which have culminated in the tragedy at Geneva. The second point upon which I would wish to lay some stress is that the proceedings at Geneva and immediately before Geneva have undoubtedly led to the new grouping in Europe which is similar to, or not very different from, the grouping of Powers before the War. It has become more and more customary to speak of one group as the Allies—throughout the whole of the European Press the tendency has been to speak of one, group as counterbalancing another—the desire to reach a counterpoise, the neutralising of German influence within the Council itself—all these are tendencies greatly to be deplored, and tendencies so contrary to the spirit of the League of Nations itself, that I need hardly say it does endanger all future possibility of the League operating with success in large and important matters. If the League is based on anything at all, it is certainly based on the idea that the further we depart from the old doctrine of the balance of power the better—the old doctrine which led to competition in armaments, which, with the balance of power, led to the Great War. Now, if we return once more to the balance of power within the League of Nations, we shall just as much imperil the peace of Europe as if we had no League of Nations at all.

  1169
  I have no hesitation in saying, that throughout all these proceedings, every step which has been taken away from the original spirit with which the League was initiated, and which has been its main support in the European countries, has led us from one trouble into another. What we are now anxious about is the future. The unfortunate past is on record. What has been done has been done. We want to know how far in the future, operating within the limits of the League, the British Government are likely to make that League effective, and avoid further entanglements. Three questions were put to the Foreign Secretary, and through him to the Prime Minister, by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). To one of the questions there was given an emphatic answer—namely, with regard to unanimity in the Council. The other two questions, which I will repeat for the benefit of the Prime Minister, were as follow: Is it intended in future to give the methods of the League their full chance, instead of relying upon secret arrangements between the Locarno Powers? That is the second question. The third question was: Is it the view of the Government that the permanent seats on the, Council of the League should be in the future, as in the past, reserved for the Great Powers only? if the Prime Minister will answer these questions when he takes part in this Debate he will certainly exercise a sooshing and stabilising influence in the country.
  So long as the affairs of the League are conducted as they were at Geneva, first of all by the group of Locarno Powers behind closed doors and not in the Council, all is not well, and it will certainly be a relief to Europe to find that the opposite obtains. Once the Assembly operates, it is like changing from a mephitic atmosphere to the fresh air. To attempt diplomacy on the house tops no one for a moment would think of asking. To return to the old methods of secret diplomacy, and to bring with that the balance of power in a new form and within the League itself, is certainly endangering the possibility of the League functioning with success, and will lead us headlong to disaster. There is only one way practically—to change this policy, which was leading us away from disarmament
  1170
  and to competition in armaments. You can measure the Locarno policy, the Geneva policy, the League of Nation's policy in terms of disarmament. It if leads to disarmament, there is nothing the right hon. Gentleman has done which will not be forgiven, and we will be grateful to him. We must hope that he himself will be able to wipe out the effect of this tragedy
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): It is my intention to speak for only a short time. I hope I shall not be considered a blackleg to my class if I express the view that Ministers and ex-Ministers take up a great deal too much time. We have been looking forward to this Debate, because of the interest which has been stimulated in it, not only by various articles in the Press, which have appeared during the last week or fortnight, and to which allusion has been made, but owing to certain speeches made by the Leaders of the Opposition in the country. It is not quite clear whether or not the Leader of the Liberal party was going to send the Leader of the Labour party as a picador or as a matador into the arena to slay the wild bull of our party. At the last moment, however, the whole scene has been changed, the right hon. Gentleman has come down clothed in a spirit of spiritual lugubriocity, well fitted for the occasion. We feel that when his time has come and his voice is silent, that the word "Geneva" will be found written on his heart. Yet we cannot help remembering that he never visited the League of Nations when he was in office, and never attended, so far as I know, a single meeting of it.
  As to the Leader of the Opposition, I wish to acknowledge the graceful compliment he paid me in alluding to my simplicity. I am glad to find that opinion I have always had of myself has been confirmed by so good a judge. I am quite sure, however, he will not make the mistake of thinking that simplicity is the same thing as being simple. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Mr. Runciman) made some observations, as did also the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), on the dangers of an Englishman conducting negotiations in French. He will doubtless remember that Dr. Johnson himself

  1171
  said he never spoke French to a Frenchman; it was putting the rascal at too great an advantage, and he always addressed him in Latin.
  Now, Sir, what do we see here to-day? We see this—there has been, shall we say, a temporary set-back, no mortal blow, but, shall we say, a temporary setback to the progress of the League of Nations. And two parties out of three in. the British House of Commons leap to the conclusion that the whole fault of what has happened must be laid on the shoulders, not of the representatives of any one of the other 40 nations at Geneva, but on the back of the Englishman who represents his country there. They do that largely on the ground of what they imagine was said in the course of conversation with M. Briand. I should advise no one ever to have any further conversations with M. Briand. It has been the cause, apparently, of all that has happened in the last two months. Is it the case that that conversation is responsible for whatever happened subsequently to it? I remember that my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had conversations once with M. Briand, and after that M. Briand fell from. power, and France went from bad to worse for 12 months. But does anyone pretend for a moment that that was the result of a conversation with M. Briand?
  I was almost going to say there is no cheaper way of finding fault with any man who is negotiating an important affair than to take some conversation, when you have not got a full record before you, and to assume that he was either bamboozled himself, or that he misled the other man. I am not going to give any instances, but any one who has tried to conduct business in public affairs can think of many instances where accusations of that kind have been made, and often with very slender foundation.
  Let us just see exactly what has happened. I was very glad to hear my hon. and gallant Friend whom we welcome back into this House, the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills)—a very ardent League of Nations man if there be one in this House—deny entirely that the League had received a mortal blow. He said, and I have felt this all through,
  1172
  that what has happened in this last fortnight may have the effect, though hon. Members opposite do not believe it, of strengthening the League, by exposing to the world some of the weak points of the League. After all, the League is a very human institution, and it has not yet succeeded in changing human nature.
  What has happened is that there has been a manifestation of human nature not wholly of a happy kind, and I think it is quite possible that some of those who manifested that human nature with the greater vigour are by this time a little ashamed of themselves. You can see how human the League is because, before they parted, they morally bound themselves to meet in September, and they decided that they would set up a Commission for the examination of certain subjects to which I will allude in a moment. In other words, they confessed that there had been a regrettable time through which they had passed and they wanted to wipe out the remembrance of ii, and start again. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been attacked because it is said that he brought nothing back during the last fortnight. I know he has not brought back what he sought and strove for with all his might and main, but he has secured that the efforts at conciliation which he has been making during the last 12 months have not been frustrated by this check, and that the Powers, including an enemy Power, have been brought closer together than they have ever been since the War, and they have publicly proclaimed the fact that nothing which has occurred has driven a wedge into that new friendly relation, and they have given a pledge themselves to go forward in that way.
  The Commission to which I have alluded was set up by the League of Nations. It is a Commission, as the House knows, consisting of 15 members, ten of them members of the Council and five others. Their business will be to confront the new situation which has arisen free of all engagements of any kind, to consider the future composition of the Council, and Germany has been invited to take a seat on equal terms, with equal rights of speech and voting on that Commission, which I hope she will accept. Whoever may represent the Government on that Commission, I ask the House to remember that he is only one member on a. large Commission, and

  1173
  he cannot, however desirable he may think it, impose his own will. He will have to work with others, but he will work in the same spirit in a single-minded endeavour to arrive at a conclusion most in the interests of the League and of European peace.
  I would observe once more what I observed a fortnight ago as to the risk of the representative of a country going to conferences with too rigid and closely bound instructions, because often agreements by compromise are the only agreements to be reached where a number of people are concerned; and therefore, it may be fatally prejudicial to give too strict instructions. There is no doubt that in this recent case there was nothing that caused greater difficulty at the end than the rigid instructions of Brazil; and nothing has caused more difficulty than this, that the state of public opinion in that country, largely by the influence of speeches and the press, had become so inflamed that any other position than that taken up by M. Mello-Franco took up would probably have been quite impossible. Here I will deal with the questions which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) put about the constitution of this Commission.
  The first question was: "Does the Government accept the principle that the decision of the Council can only be taken by unanimity?" The answer is "Yes." "Will the Government use the League machinery?" "Yes, certainly, every time it is appropriate." I do not use that in any hedging sense. There has been a great deal said to-day about secret intrigues and secret conversations. I want to be perfectly frank with the House. It is obvious that in discussions that take place points may arise which will affect, until Germany is definitely a member of the League, those Powers who were acting together at Locarno and before that Agreement. For such points to be settled by themselves, is not to go behind the League. In all cases where the League is effective, and we act as a League Power, we use the machinery. "Does the Government think permanent seats should be reserved for only great Powers?" The answer to that is in the instructions given to the Foreign Secretary which he read out:
  1174
  " The rule that only Great Powers should be permanent members of the Council should in principle be maintained."
  Now what I said five minutes ago has some bearing on this. There is no undertaking now so far as the work of this Commission is concerned to try to put any particular Power in a permanent scat on the Council. It is equally open to the Commission to recommend that the number of seats shall remain as they are. It is perfectly open to the Commission to report to the League of Nations that the constitution of the Council shall remain as it is now, or that it shall be increased by whatever they suggest. It is a perfectly open question. I hope that Germany will be taking part in that discussion. A new situation has to be met and judged in the light of past events, and I hope what I have said on that point will satisfy the House.
  I should, only like to say, as there has been so much criticism of my right hon. Friend, that in regard to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen. Valley my right hon. Friend (the Foreign Secretary) confessed to me that he was in grave error in this quotation from Molière. One or two hon. Members, and I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), and I am not sure about the right hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Runciman), said, "We are sorry to be voting against a Government on a matter of foreign affairs. 'Their sorrow is their own, and I sympathise with them to the extent of their feelings. I may say that I too regret it. I would like to make this appeal to the House, that we try to follow the example which the League of Nations itself has set. Let us try to regard this Debate and the Division which will take place as an unfortunate aside that will be over by a quarter past eleven to-night, and then try and unite on the policy which I have described to the House, of supporting this Commission in this very difficult work it is undertaking for the League of Nations. Let us hope that it may be some time before we see the House, as it is to-night, divided on strictly party lines—a bad thing for foreign policy and a bad thing for the League of Nations.
  One last word. I should like, at the end of this Debate, to express to the House the confidence that I and His

  1175
  Majesty's Government feel in the Foreign Secretary. He has had a very difficult and a very thankless task. I say deliberately that I have never known a worse kind of abuse heaped on a man than has been heaped on the Foreign Secretary in a certain section of the Press within the last fortnight. But it has not lowered him in the estimation of the House of Commons. I think that his whole party will show to-night that they share the view of the Government as to
  the way in which he has come through this difficult and trying time. Although he has not accomplished what he set out for, yet they think he has done the best he could in the circumstances, and they feel every confidence that, before many months are over, he will have brought to completion and fruition the efforts upon which he has been so long engaged.
  Question put, "That '£117,840,000' stand part of the Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 325; Noes, 136.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Christie, J. A.

  Hall, Capt. W. D.A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Hanbury, C.

  Albery, Irving James

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hannon. Patrick Joseph Henry

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Harland, A.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool.W. Derby)

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Ashley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennlngton)

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Cope, Major William

  Haslam, Henry c.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Henderson. Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootie)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Balnlel, Lord

  Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Barclay-Harvey, C, M.

  Crookahank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)

  Herbert, S. (York, N. R.,'Scar.&Wh'by)

  Barnston, Major Sir Marry

  Cunliffe, Sir Herbert

  Hills, Major John Waller

  Belialrs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Dreks)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy

  Bennett, A. J.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Davidson,J.(Herti'd.Hemel Hempst'd)

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Blrchali, Major J. Dearman

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H

  Holt, Captain H. P

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Davies, MaJ. Geo. F. (Somerset.Yeovil)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster. Mossley)

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Eden, Captain Anthony

  Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Horlick. Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A,

  Eiveden, Viscount

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Brass, Captain W.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Hudson, R. S (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n,

  Briggs, J. Harold

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Hume. Sir G. H.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Brittaln, Sir Harry

  Falls. Sir Charles F.

  Huntingfield, Lord

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Iliffe, Sir Edward M.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Ford, Sir P. J.

  Jackson, Lieut. Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)

  Forrest, W.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  James. Lieut-Colonel Hon. Cuthbort

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Burgoyne, Lieut. Colonel Sir Alan

  Galbralth, J. F. W.

  Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Gates, Percy

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Kindersley, Major G. M.

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Calne. Gordon Hall

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Kinloch-Cookc, Sir Clement

  Campbell. E. T.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Grant, J. A.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Cayzer, Sir c. (Chester, City)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

  Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

  Cayzer, MaJ. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Grotrlan, H. Brent

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Chadwick. Sir Robert Burton

  Guest, Capt. Rt.Hon.F.E.(Bristrol,N.)

  Locker-Lampson. G. (Wood Green)

  Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.SirJ.A (Birm.,W.)

  Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Locker-Lampson. com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Gunston. Captain D. W.

  Loder, J. de V.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Charlerls, Brigadier-General J.

  Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Lougher, L.

  Phillipson, Mabel

  Strickland, Sir Gerald

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere

  Pleiou, D. P.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman

  Pilcher, G.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Lumley, L. R

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Price, Major C. W. M.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

  Radford. E. A.

  Tasker, Major R. Inlgo

  Maclntyre, Ian

  Raine, W.

  Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

  McLean, Major A.

  Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Remer, J. R.

  Tlnne. J. A.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

  Turton, Sir Edmund Russhorough

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford. Hereford)

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Manningham-Buller, sir Mervyn

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Ward, Lt.col.A.L.(Kingslon-on-Hull)

  Margesson, Capt. D.

  Ropner, Major L.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudscy and Otley)

  Meller, R. J.

  Rya. F G.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Merriman. F. B.

  Salmon, Major L

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wells. S. R.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth. Putney)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granvillc C. H.

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Moore, Lieut-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Sandon, Lord

  Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Centr. I)

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Rlchm'd)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Savery, S. S.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Morden, Colonel Walter Grant

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Winby, Colonel L. p.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)

  Windsor-Cilve. Lieut.-Colonel George

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Sailsbury)

  Shaw. Capt. W W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Wise. Sir Fredric

  Morchison, C. K.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Withers, John James

  Nail. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Nevlile, R. J.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Wood, E.(Chest'r.Stalyb'drje & Hyde)

  Newton, Sir D. G C. (Cambridge)

  Smith-Carington. Neville W.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G. (Ptrst'ld.)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Oakley. T.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  O'Connor, T, J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Wragg, Herbert

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Starley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Perkins. Colonel E. K.

  Storry-Deans, R.

  Commander B. Eyres Monsell and

  Peto, Basli E. (Devon. Barnstaple)

  Stott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Colonel Gibbs.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

  NOES.

  Acamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Dunnico, H.

  Lansbury, George

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Lawson, John James

  Ammon, Charles George

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)

  Lee. F.

  Attlee. Clement Richard

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Barnes, A.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Lowth, T.

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Glllett. George M.

  Lunn, William

  Barr, J.

  Gosling, Harry

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

  Batey, Joseph

  Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Macklnder, W.

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  March, S.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Maxton, James

  Briant, Frank

  Griffiths, T, (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Broad, F. A.

  Groves, T.

  Montague, Frederick

  Bromfleld, William

  Grundy, T. W.

  Morris. R. H.

  Bromley, J.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hamilton, Sir R, (Orkney & Shetland)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel

  Harris, Percy A.

  Owen, Major G.

  Cape. Thomas

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Palln, John Henry

  Charleton, H. C.

  Hayday. Arthur

  Paling, W.

  Clowes, S.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Pethick-Lawrence, F. w.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Potts, John S.

  Compton, Joseph

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Purcell, A. A.

  Connolly, M.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Richardson, R, (Houghton-re-Spring)

  Cowan, 0. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Rlley. Ben

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Ritson, J.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks,W.R., Elland)

  Davies, David (Montgomery)

  Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Davies, Rhys John (Wesihoughton)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Scurr, John

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Kelly. W. T.

  Sexton, James

  Dennison, R.

  Kennedy, T.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Duncan, C.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

  1178

  1179

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Whiteley, W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro.. W.)

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Thurtle, E.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Townend, A. E.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley)

  Viant, S. P.

  Windsor, Walter

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Wright, W.

  Snell, Harry

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

  Warne. G. H.

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Sir Godfrey Collins and Sir Robert

  Taylor, R. A.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah

  Hutchison,

  Resolutions agreed to.

  It being after Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.

  WAYS AND MEANS [18TH MARCH].
  Resolutions reported,
  1." That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1925, the sum of £387,204 9s. 7d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  2" That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1926, the sum of £5,269,474 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  3." That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, the sum of £174,047,500 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Bill ordered to he brought in upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of
  1180
  Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Ronald McNeill.
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL,
  " to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-five, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-six, and one thousand nine hundred and twenty-seven," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 74.]

  ALLOTMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Fourteen Minutes after Eleven o' Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  OVERSEAS TRADE.
  OVERSEAS TRADE.
  METHYLATED SPIRITS.
  METHYLATED SPIRITS.
  GRAIN-LADEN SHIPS (CASUALTIES).
  GRAIN-LADEN SHIPS (CASUALTIES).
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY (ROYALTIES).
  COAL MINING INDUSTRY (ROYALTIES).
BRITISH ARMY.
  ORDNANCE DEPOTS (PERSONNEL).
  ORDNANCE DEPOTS (PERSONNEL).
  PENSION CLAIM (W. PEROWNE).
  PENSION CLAIM (W. PEROWNE).
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  ROYAL NAVY (PENSION CLAIM).
  ROYAL NAVY (PENSION CLAIM).
SCOTLAND.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (SEAMEN).
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (SEAMEN).
  MIDWIVES (TRAINING GRANT).
  MIDWIVES (TRAINING GRANT).
  LIME SUPPLIES.
  LIME SUPPLIES.
  HOUSING.
  HOUSING.
  UNEMPLOYMENT EXTENDED BENEFIT (BOROUGH).
  UNEMPLOYMENT EXTENDED BENEFIT (BOROUGH).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  OVERTIME.
  OVERTIME.
  TAX OFFICE, NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  TAX OFFICE, NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE'S OFFICE (WRITING ASSISTANTS AND TYPISTS).
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE'S OFFICE (WRITING ASSISTANTS AND TYPISTS).
POST OFFICE.
  AUTOMATIC TELEPHONES.
  AUTOMATIC TELEPHONES.
  CASH-ON-DELIVERY SERVICE (STAFF).
  CASH-ON-DELIVERY SERVICE (STAFF).
  BROADCASTING (PARLIAMENT AND PUBLIC SPEECHES).
  BROADCASTING (PARLIAMENT AND PUBLIC SPEECHES).
TRANSPORT.
  LONDON OMNIBUS SERVICES.
  LONDON OMNIBUS SERVICES.
  PERTH-INVERNESS ROAD (ACCOMMODATION FOR WORKMEN).
  PERTH-INVERNESS ROAD (ACCOMMODATION FOR WORKMEN).
  LONDON TRAFFIC ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
  LONDON TRAFFIC ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
  MOTORISTS (INSURANCE).
  MOTORISTS (INSURANCE).
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  IMPORTED APPLES (ARSENIC).
  IMPORTED APPLES (ARSENIC).
  SCHOOL PLAYING FIELDS.
  SCHOOL PLAYING FIELDS.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The Lord CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
A Petition of Messrs. Torr, Durnford and Company, of 2, Millbank House, Westminster, Parliamentary Agents, praying for leave to present a Petition of the National Federation of Launderers, Limited, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 92 for presenting such Petition has expired, was read last Thursday and ordered to lie on the Table, and Standing Order No. 92 to be considered to-day in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Petition.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Paper. This is in accordance with an agreement between the parties.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 92 be considered in order to its being dispensed with, with respect to a Petition of the National Federation of Launderers, Limited.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly. Leave given to present the Petition.

BIRMINGHAM CANAL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
SERLE STREET AND COOK'S COURT IMPROVEMENT COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BROMPTON, CHATHAM, GILLINGHAM AND ROCHESTER WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC HEALTH (SMOKE ABATEMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, as a Bill very similar to this has already been introduced three times in this House I need only recall to your Lordships a very brief outline of its history and purpose. The activities of various smoke abatement bodies, and also Parliamentary action, led, in 1914, to the setting up of a Departmental Committee to investigate possible ways of strengthening the law against pollution of the atmosphere. This Committee had to be dispersed at the outbreak of the War, and not until 1920 was the Ministry of Health able to set up another Committee, under the Chairmanship of Lord Newton, whose exhaustive Report is no doubt familiar to your Lordships. Following this Report, Bills were introduced in 1922, 1923 and 1924, but only in the case of the last was it possible to proceed to Committee stage. In view of the somewhat inauspicious careers of these Bills, one of the principal objections directed against them was that the Government of the day bad never any intention of passing them into law, which is certainly a very valid criticism, if it can be substantiated, against any Bill, but it is one which I hope will be now satisfactorily and finally dissipated.
I may, perhaps, remind your Lordships that it is now possible for the sanitary authorities too proceed under various Acts of Parliament, some local and some general—more particularly the Public Health Act, 1875—against excessive pollution of the atmosphere by smoke. It is the intention in the present case to follow the precedent of other Bills and to extend the scope of certain Acts, and, in addition, to encourage the more rigid enforcement of the existing laws. The Minister feels that a great deal more could be done in this direction, and that by rigid enforcement of moderate restrictions a more useful public purpose could be served than would be served by extending restrictions without regard to the burden thereby imposed on industry and on the convenience of the public, which, in his opinion, would only hinder the recuperation of industry or, alternatively, would lead to the non-observance of the law.

715
If your Lordships turn to the Bill you will observe that Clause 1 makes it possible to take proceedings in respect to a smoke nuisance irrespective of the colour of the smoke; and it provides for a wider definition of the term "smoke." On the other hand, it extends temporary exemption from liability as regards such proceedings to certain processes, chiefly—or entirely, I think—in the steel trade, and enables the Minister, subject to confirmation by Parliament, to exempt other processes. It will, however, be a defence against these proceedings to show that the best possible means have been taken for preventing a nuisance, except in the case of the emission of black smoke, where the existing law will continue to apply. The clause also allows of the imposition of larger penalties than at present, and in certain respects incorporates different suggestions from varying points of view expressed in Committee on the 1924 Bill. It does something to strengthen the existing law on the lines suggested in the Newton Report; at the same time, it exempts certain industrial premises which might be unduly handicapped thereby.
Clause 2 enables local authorities to set up standards of smoke emission, subject to confirmation by the Minister. I understand that this provision will facilitate the enforcement of the law, inasmuch as the onus of proof, after certain standards have been exceeded, will now rest on the manufacturer, instead of on the local authority. An alteration has been made in this clause to meet the criticism of the majority on the last Bill and in order to strengthen the existing law. Clause 3 is, I believe non-controversial: it merely strengthens and extends the scope of some of the provisions of the Alkali, &c., Works Regulation Act.
Clause 4 enables local authorities to require that certain new buildings should be provided with arrangements for smokeless heating. This is rather an important clause. It was debated at some length in Committee in 1924. The Minister is anxious to do what is possible to reduce the volume of domestic smoke, which, as was shown in the Report, is responsible for at least 50 per cent. of the pollution of the atmosphere. While it is obviously impossible to require the alteration of heating arrangements in existing buildings, the Minister considers that it should be possible to enforce smokeless
716
heating arrangements in new buildings, but he excepts dwelling-houses. He has very carefully considered whether this provision could be extended to dwelling-houses, but after extensive inquiries he has come to the conclusion that such an extension would not be compatible with the rapid and inexpensive provision of working-class houses, which are still so urgently needed. It must be remembered in this connection that experience has proved that people are exceedingly conservative in their domestic habits, and also that no cheap form of smokeless fuel is at present available for domestic consumption.
In Clause 5 local authorities are to be able to combine for the prevention of smoke nuisances. Clause 6 is for the purpose of strengthening the hands of the Ministry in cases where the local sanitary authorities are in default in respect of their anti-smoke duties. The Minister is enabled in such cases to transfer their powers to county councils and also to hold an inquiry into the manner in which they are carrying out their duties in this respect. Clause 7 enables the Minister to procure information -as to the general progress of anti-smoke measures. Parts of Clause 6 and all Clause 7 are new and are inserted with the object of strengthening the hand of the Minister, in order to lead to a, better general enforcement of the law. It has not been found possible to adopt all the suggestions of the Newton Committee, such as that which provided that county councils should ordinarily be responsible for taking proceedings in respect of nuisances. I do not think I need enter into the reasons for that decision at this stage of the Bill, but I might observe that the clause does in some respects approximate to the recommendations of that Committee; at least, more so than has been the case in previous Bills.
Under Clause 6 ships are exempted from the operation of the Bill. This clause has been inserted in response to strong representations made in Committee on the 1924 Bill. The Minister has been convinced of the desirability of exempting ships, because of the technical difficulties of enforcing legislation in regard to ships, and also on account of the complications that might arise if an attempt was made to do so in respect of foreign vessels. Clause 9 enables pressure to be exerted on Govern-

717
ment establishments Which may transgress the law. An attempt has here been made to meet the very general desire that Government establishments should be prevented from setting a bad example in respect of smoke nuisances. It is, of course, understood that Government Departments cannot be made subject to legal proceedings in the ordinary way because ultimately Parliament itself is responsible, but in this clause a method is adopted which attempts to attain the desired object while avoiding the practical and constitutional difficulty which would otherwise be involved.
I think have said sufficient at this stage about the clauses of the Bill. Your Lordships will see that this is not a very stringent measure, and it will not bring about the complete disappearance of fogs and smoke, which have obviously such unpleasant and harmful effects, both here and in the industrial areas, and on which such very full evidence is given in the 1921 Report. But I submit that the Minister has gone as far as he could without adding to the cost of living and without adding to the expenses of production in manufacture by requiring the installation of new plant in factories. On the whole, I think it is stronger than previous Bills and I hope it will commend itself to the noble Lord, Lord Newton. I noticed the other day that the noble Lord observed that each successive Bill was worse than the one before. I also noticed that in 1923 he said that he cheerfully admitted that the Bill of that year was a considerable improvement upon its predecessors. Although he may not usually be given to undue optimism, I hope the noble Lord may continue to be cheerful in respect to this Bill, which I think follows more closely the lines of the noble Lord's Report. I have only one thing to add in relation to a criticism which was previously made against the form of the Bill, that it contains an enormous number of references to Acts of Parliament. There is no defence. It must be admitted that it is a bad example of that sort of thing, but I understand that it is intended to carry out a consolidation of all the Public Health Acts as soon as the time of the appropriate officials permits. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Gage.)
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, this Bill is really a very important measure, although nobody would guess that this was the case judging by the appearance of the House at the present moment. It is a somewhat singular fact that a measure of this kind, which as I say is one of very considerable importance, is not, apparently, considered worthy of patronage by one of his Majesty's Ministers. As the noble Viscount said, this Bill is the fourth of a series. It is the fourth Bill which has been introduced since 1921, when the Committee over which I presided issued its Report. Here I would like to correct the lapsus lingua of which I admit I was guilty the other day. I did say that one Bill was worse than the other. In a sense that was true; but what. I ought to have said was that the Bill had started very badly Fait had gradually improved, and I am now ready openly to admit that there has been a progressive improvement for this reason; that every year one more of our recommendations has been adopted. But the real trouble with previous Bills was that, to use a racing term, they were "never meant." It was never intended that any of them should pass. They were all introduced at a period of the Session when it was perfectly obvious that nothing of the kind would be in the least likely to go through the two Houses of Parliament. I hope this time that His Majesty's Government are animated by a different feeling, that they really have honourable intentions in this case and that they mean to get this Bill through, somehow or other.
In studying the measure one cannot help being struck with the influence which important and powerful organisations are able to exert upon all Governments. The noble Viscount indicated certain changes which appear in the Bill. Let me first of all call your Lord ships' attention to Clause 1, subsection (1), paragraph (e). This is the clause which deals with exemption and it must be perfectly clear to everybody that this clause has been put in at the instigation of, and owing to pressure by, the Sheffield people. There was already a large number of exemptions under the old Act of 1875. The Sheffield people came forward and said that they would be ruined unless their particular industries were included amongst the

719
exempted industries. They have got their way. So much for the Sheffield provision. I pass to subsection (4) of Clause 1, which refers to the giving of notice of nuisance. That was obviously put in by the Federation of British Industries. I remember they objected to the wording of a similar subsection in last year's Bill.
Then I pass to what is much more important—namely, Clause 8, which exempts steamships. It must be perfectly obvious to everybody that what has happened is that Lord Inchcape, accompanied by other shipping magnates, went to the Government and made out that unless steamships were exempted the whole of the shipping trade of the country would be ruined. The astonishing thing is that he has succeeded in persuading the Minister to adopt his views; with the result, which is almost unbelievable, that the shipping industry is placed in a better position than it was in before. Up to now a steamship in harbour was treated like a house and came under the same regulations. Now, as I understand it, there is not to be any liability whatsoever, in spite of the fact that there is no real argument against steamships being treated in the same way as other industries. If I am not mistaken, every single port authority is against the shipping people in this matter.
But the most surprising of all is Clause 9, with regard to Government establishments. My noble friend who moved the Second Reading of the Bill endeavoured, of course, to make out that the Government were acting in an altruistic and patriotic manner and were going to allow their own establishments to be dealt with in the same way as private undertakings. It is nothing of the kind. The position is that the Minister who happens to be at the head of the particular Department which is causing the offence is the judge of whether he is causing a nuisance or not. That is to say, supposing a Government establishment, an arsenal or something of the kind, was creating a nuisance, it would be impossible to proceed against them unless the Secretary of State for War, or the First Lord of the Admiralty, admitted that it was a nuisance. On the other hand, a private establishment of the same kind which was emitting smoke would be
720
liable to heavy penalties under the Bill. Really it does seem to be grotesquely impudent, if I may use the term, that the Government should propose punitive legislation for private manufacturers who are carrying on exactly the same kind of work and should deliberately exempt themselves. I think this clause must be radically altered before the Bill leaves your Lordships' House; otherwise, we shall put ourselves in an absurd position.
Apart from these criticisms, I gladly welcome this Bill as an improvement upon its predecessors. I welcome it all the more because this Bill embodies recommendations which we have hitherto urged without any success whatsoever. For instance, it increases the penalties, which in itself is a good thing. It enables standards to be fixed by local authorities—a point we were very desirous of establishing. It gives county councils power to carry out duties which have been neglected by the smaller authorities. At the same time, I am afraid I do not see any power given to the Minister to compel the county councils to carry out their duties. I submit also that the Bill deals in a somewhat half-hearted way with the question of local authorities insisting upon smoke-abating appliances being introduced into buildings which are being put up. Altogether, to put it shortly, it is a Bill which may do a great deal of good, in the first place, if it is amended in Committee, and in the second place, if it is administered in the proper spirit.
Everybody, I think, by this time admits that a measure of this kind is badly required. I notice that the Coal Commission the other day pointed out, what was of course familiar to anybody who has studied this question—that the waste from burning raw coal at the present moment equals the output from all the mines in this country working for three days with considerably more than one million miners employed. That gives one some small idea of the reckless waste that is going on at present. I do not want to enlarge upon this matter. Every one knows perfectly well the damage which is done all round by smoke. But this is not simply a question of economy. It is a much larger question than that. It is a question that concerns not only the economy of the nation, but the general amenity of life of the vast majority of the inhabitants of this Island.

721
If this measure passes with the necessary Amendments, if it is administered in a proper spirit, and if the Ministry of Health will show a real interest in this question, which they have never hitherto dune, then I think a good deal can be done to reduce a state of things winch really is almost a disgrace to a civilised community.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I feel that I ought to be in a position to congratulate the noble Lord on introducing a Bill so very similar to that which I myself introduced two years ago, but I am afraid that congratulation cannot be wholehearted because the position to-day is quite different. The Smoke Abatement Bill of 1924 was introduced by a Minority Government, which had to introduce an agreed Bill. The situation to-day is not at all like that. We have now a Government with an enormous majority in both Houses, and I think we are, entitled to say that if they had really meant business they would have brought in a very much more stringent Bill than this is.
At the same time, when the noble Lord, Lord Newton, blesses a Smoke Abatement Bill, it would seem to be almost presumption for any one else to find fault with it. It certainly has, as he pointed out, a certain number of weaknesses. He hit on the right point at the end of his speech when he said that, providing the Minister of Health really set out to administer this Bill in a spirit that he, Lord Newton, would desire, the Bill would be an immense improvement on what has gone before. But is the Minister of Health prepared to give us an undertaking that he really is going to have an inquiry with a view to terminating what we may call the metallurgical exemptions" Is he prepared to give us an undertaking that he is going to enforce in the near future ample by laws on the local authorities?
There are a number of Amendments that I shall hope to move, or that I hope may be moved by some one, before the Bill goes finally to the other House. In Clause 4, which was referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, there is a notable exemption which I hope will be omitted. I see in the Report of the Committee stage proceedings of the 1924 Bill that it was omitted. The words are
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"other than private dwelling houses." The noble Lord, Lord Newton, on that occasion moved an Amendment and the Government accepted it. That has now been vetoed. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, also mentioned the question of Government Departments. I hope that on that point a very strong Amendment will be moved. Of one thing I am sure and that is that, however strong the Amendment is, it ought to receive very great support from the Government Benches, judging from the bombardment and buffeting to which I was subjected by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and the noble Marquess the Leader of the House.
I can assure the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill that whatever is moved from this side of the House will be moved solely with an earnest desire to help in every way to improve the Bill and will not be designed in any way to impede its passage. We on this side of the House, as well as the Opposition in another place, believe that the problem of doing away with the smoke in our atmosphere is one of the most important problems presented to those who are interested in public health. As the noble Lord, Lord Newton, pointed out, it is not merely a matter of economy, not solely a matter of saving the hundreds of thousands of pounds that we lose every year by the destruction of buildings in our towns, or the wastage of time occasioned through unnecessary fogs, but it is a question of our whole general outlook on life. I wonder how many of your Lordships consider the enormous number of people in this country who hardly know what a really pure ray of sunlight is, and what that must mean to their moral and æsthetic outlook on life. Surely that is just as important as any other consideration. I hope, however, that this Bill will receive a Second Reading.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, the noble Earl opposite apparently got up to curse the Bill, but finished by blessing it, as, I am sure he would, because he has agreed, like so many other noble Lords in this House, that smoke, especially in large towns, is most injurious to the public health. I am well aware, as the noble Lord, Lord Newton, said, that this is the fourth of a series of Bills. I hope it is going to prove to be the lucky number, and that it will pass into law. This question of smoke abatement has been con-

723
sidered very carefully for some years by the London local authorities, especially by the London County Council, and they have repeatedly pressed that the Ministry of Health should bring in a comprehensive measure.
There is one point, however, to which I should like to draw the attention of the noble Viscount who moved the Second Reading. My point arises on subsection (3) of Clause 2, and it is this. Ever since the creation of the London Borough Councils they have been the authority to administer the present Act, and the public control committee of the London County Council stated in their Report that during the last twenty years smoke conditions all over London have greatly improved. They are by no means perfect, as we all know, and we hope this Bill will do something to remedy the defects that exist. At the same time, it is curious to note that that period of twenty years is practically coincident with the creation of the London Borough Councils.
I may be mistaken, but so far as I can understand Clause 2 it gives power to prescribe standards or by-laws to a local authority on the recommendation of the Minister of Health. Subsection (3) contains the application of this clause to London:—
"In the application of this section to London, the port sanitary authority of the Port of London shall be the local authority within the district of that authority,"—
it is, that is to say, the authority to carry out the work—
"but save as respects that district the London County Council shall be the local authority within the area of the county of London and the Common Council shall be the local authority within the City of London."
The London County Council is quit e satisfied with the way in which the borough councils are carrying out their work and it is part of the policy of the London County Council to devolve as much of their powers of this kind, in view of the congestion of the work they have to do, upon local authorities. I cannot see any reason why work which has been admittedly well done so far as lies in their power under the existing Acts, should be taken away from them. I may be mistaken in my reading of the clause and it may mean simply that the
724
London County Council shall be the authority for making by-laws. To that, of course, nobody can have any possible objection. My point, however, is that it is the authority now. We must have one authority in London and I see no reason why this power should be taken from the existing authority. I hope that the Minister in charge of the Bill, Viscount Gage, will explain the matter, because I can assure him there will be a great deal of opposition from the London local authorities and the County Council itself if the present system is altered by this Bill.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I have very little to add to what I said originally because the points that have been raised are nearly all Committee points, which will naturally receive consideration from the Minister before the next stage of the Bill. The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, said he was surprised that the Government with its majority should introduce such a weak Bill. This is not a Party question. It is a question of doing as much as we can without harming industry. I do not think the question of majorities comes in at all. As regards what he asked in connection with the assurance that the Minister of Health would undertake all he has promised, I can only refer him to the testimony which Lord Newton, a few days ago, bore to the good intentions of the Minister of Health. I think he expressed some doubt as to the good intentions of his colleagues, but as to the Minister himself he expressed no doubt that everything that he intended would be carried out to the best of his ability. The only other point which has arisen is the point just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jessel. So far as I am able to understand the subsection, I think he is under a slight misapprehension. What is referred to here—I think it is fairly clear—is the power of making by-laws. You will note that the clause is described as dealing with power to prescribe standards. That is the power which is conferred on the County Council. The enforcement of the by-laws will remain as at present with the boroughs.
LORD JESSEL: The sanitary authority.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I beg your pardon, the sanitary authority.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My Lords, I would be glad if the Government would state whether it is their intention to include Scotland in a measure of this kind, because it is just as much needed there as in England. In fact, it is needed even more as we burn more soft coal in Scotland. I am disappointed that the measure does not extend to the northern part of this Island. On the point under discussion, in my experience I have found it desirable to have powers conferred on the larger rather than on the smaller authorities. On the general principle I think that all the borough councils in London are very much dovetailed into one another, and I should have thought the central authority would be most effective. There is so much pressure brought to bear upon a borough council, whether by the municipality itself, whose electrical or gas or other concerns may be one of the leading causes of the pollution of the atmosphere, or by the strong representations of persons interested, who also contribute to the pollution of the atmosphere and who can make their influence more powerfully felt upon a smaller rather than a larger authority. But the reason I rose was to ask whether it is intended by the Government to extend this legislation to Scotland.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to point out the inconvenience of procedure by which speeches are made by noble Lords after the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has spoken in answer to questions raised. We had some little discussion some time ago on points of order of this kind. It is quite obvious that a noble Lord in charge of a Bill is placed in a difficulty if speeches are made after he himself has answered to the best of his ability the points already raised. The noble Viscount in charge of this Bill is not to blame, if I may say so, because nobody rose to continue the discussion. But if you are going to have questions of this kind raised after the noble Lord in charge of a Bill has replied on behalf of His Majesty's Government we shall inevitably be left in difficulty.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My Lords, may I be allowed to point out that it is the noble Duke, sitting below me, who usually answers for Scotland and he has not spoken yet.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I quite agree that it is inconvenient after the Minister in charge of a Bill has replied for the discussion to continue, but I am sure your Lordships will allow me to answer the noble Viscount. I agree with him, if I may be allowed to say so, that Scotland is at least as much in need of a Bill of this kind as England. He is quite correct in that respect. But he knows much better than I know that the law of Scotland is not the same as the law of England and it is not easy to deal with the law of England and the law of Scotland in one Bill. It is the intention of the Government to introduce another Bill to deal with Scotland. I do not know whether it can be done in the present Session; but that is the intention. We carefully considered this point and we came to the conclusion that it would be impracticable to add Scottish provisions to this Bill. It would have led to a great deal of confusion and we were obliged to abandon the attempt, but the matter has not escaped us.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole. House.

CRIMINAL APPEAL (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND): My Lords, this is a Bill providing that a person convicted on indictment may appeal to the High Court of Justiciary, and it gives effect to the recommendations of a Committee which was appointed by the Secretary for Scotland last year. At present persons convicted on indictment in Scotland have only limited rights of appeal. There is, for example, no means of bringing the verdict of a jury under judicial review, whether the trial is in the High Court or the Sheriff Court. This Bill confers rights of appeal in Scotland substantially similar to those enjoyed in England under the Criminal Appeal Act of 1907. I beg to move tat the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Duke of Sutherland.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, this Bill is quite a good one and the only observation to be made upon it is that it ought to have been introduced long ago. My noble friend Viscount Dunedin has been driven away by smoke and therefore he cannot make his observations upon the Bill. I will only say that I have read the Bill and I think it does that which the noble Duke says: it applies the principle of the English law. But why it is that we in Scotland, not only in respect of smoke but in respect of criminal appeals, should be left behind the country south of the Border I cannot tell. Your Lordships can scarcely realise that even the principle—which Lord Cairns passed a quarter of a century ago—of the Settled Land Act has never been applied to Scotland and, what is more, it is not likely to be applied. Both in the matter of land and in the matter of smoke the people of Scotland appear to be of a highly conservative disposition, and not decreasingly so, so far as I can see.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish they were a little more conservative.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I really think the noble Marquess has not acquainted himself with the movements of opinion there. We get nothing from Scotland that is of an advanced, much less of a revolutionary character. At any rate, the noble Duke has done his best to make up for this delay by bringing in this Bill, even thus tardily.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MARKETS AND FAIRS (WEIGHING OF CATTLE) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

LAW OF PROPERTY (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Amendment of 15 Geo. 5. c. 20. s. 140. in its application to agricultural holdings.
2. Section one hundred and forty of the Law of Property Act, 1925 (which relates to the apportionment of conditions on severance), shall have effect as if at the end of Subsection (2) thereof the following proviso were inserted:
"Provided that where the land demised is an agricultural holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, the tenant on whom notice to quit is served by the person entitled to a severed part of the reversion may, if he is a tenant from year to year, at any time within twenty-eight days of the service of such notice to quit, serve on the persons severally entitled to the severed parts of the reversion a notice in writing to the effect that he accepts the notice to quit as a notice to quit the entire holding to take effect at the expiration of the then current year of tenancy; and the notice to quit shall have effect accordingly."
LORD STRACHIE: I desire to ask the Lord Chancellor one or two questions before Clause 2 is agreed to. I should like him, if he will be good enough, to explain the reason for amending Section 140 of the original Act. I should also like to ask him if it is the case that, if an owner sells part of the farm and if the purchaser gives notice to quit to the tenant of that part, the tenant can give notice to quit the other part of the farm and claim compensation from the landlord. That appears to me to be the position under the law as amended, and it seems to me to be really rather necessary to amend this clause. But time has been so very short that I have been unable to consult with those interested in the matter and I am merely making the suggestion on my own behalf.
Again, if this proposed amendment of the law is agreed to, what will be the position of a landowner who sells part of a farm, and how will the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, apply in such cases? It seems to me that the legal position is very difficult indeed, for, as the House knows, the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, is very complicated

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and difficult to interpret. All that I want to do now is to make an appeal to the Lord Chancellor not to rush this Bill but to give us an opportunity between now and the Report stage of considering it further and putting down Amendments. I think the noble and learned Viscount will agree that it is very difficult indeed for us, unless we have consultation with our legal advisers, to tell exactly what the effect of the Bill will be.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): I agree that the question is rather complicated, but I think I can give the noble Lord an explanation in a few words. The effect of the Act of 1922 and of the Consolidating Act of 1925 is that when land which is let to a tenant is severed—that is, when part is sold to a new owner and part retained— the conditions are apportioned, so that the owner of part of the land can give the tenant notice to quit that part of the land. The Acts of 1922 and of 1925 make provision for this difficulty in the following way. The framers of the Act saw that the effect of giving notice to quit part only of a farm might be to make the rest of the farm almost impossible to work. It might be too small or it might have no proper buildings, no farmhouse or something of that kind. Accordingly the existing Act provides that where notice is given to quit part of a farm by the owner of that part the tenant may give a counter-notice to quit the whole so that he may get rid of his tenancy.
That was all right so far as it went, but I think one point was overlooked. If the tenant took advantage of that provision and gave notice to quit the other part he would not be entitled to compensation for improvements because, the tenancy being determined by himself and not by the landlord, the provision as to compensation would not apply. That might be very unjust to the tenant, and accordingly we are amending that provision by saying that, if the owner of a part gives notice to quit his part, the tenant may, without himself giving notice to quit the rest, take the notice to quit part as a notice to quit the whole, and by that means he does become entitled to compensation. That is the simple effect of the amendment made by this Bill.
The noble Lord has raised a point which I think certainly deserves
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consideration. He asks what will then be the effect of the special section in the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923. As the noble Lord knows as well as any of us, where, under that Act, notice is given to quit a small part of a holding for the purpose of forming allotments or for certain other purposes and the tenant says: "Very well, I will quit the whole," the tenant is not entitled to compensation for the small part. He is using the machinery of the Act in order to get rid of his tenancy. I think the noble Lord suggests that this arrangement should apply to this clause also. I admit that this is rather a complicated point, but it is well deserving of consideration and, if the noble Lord will permit me, I will consider the matter to see whether we ought to introduce in this substituted proviso words which will bring that section of the Act of 1923 into operation. I was anxious to get an early passage for the Bill but, since this point has arisen, I am afraid I cannot put down the next stage for an earlier date than Thursday. If the noble Lord will be good enough to tell me privately what he thinks ought to be done, or if he will look at an Amendment which I will show to him, I have no doubt that we can by Thursday agree upon a form of words, if any Amendment is required.
LORD STRACHIE: I am very much obliged to the Lord Chancellor for putting the Report stage off until Thursday, if he cannot put it off even a little longer. Even so there will be very little time to consult with those who advise us on questions of this kind, and I should have been very much obliged if he could have put the Report stage down for Tuesday.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should very much like to get my Bill before Easter, if possible.
LORD STRACHIE: That would make it impossible. Did I make myself quite clear about one point? I do not think the noble Viscount answered it. It is this: Whether, as the clause now stands, it is the case that where a man has sold part of a farm, retaining the rest, and the man to whom he has sold that part of the farm gives notice to the tenant of the owner, then the tenant has a right to give notice to the landlord to quit the rest of the farm, which the landlord did not sell,

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and in consequence the landlord, although he has not given the tenant notice, has to pay compensation to the tenant for disturbance. That is what we object to. We think it is unfair that the landowner, who does not give notice to the tenant to quit the rest of the farm, is nevertheless liable to have notice given to him by the tenant, and will then have to pay compensation.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is not the effect of this clause, but is what the existing Act provides. It is thought that it is not fair that the man should sell part of a farm and not pay compensation for disturbance.
LORD STRACHIE: It is not a question of a man selling. It is when a man has sold part, say twenty or thirty acres, but does not give notice to the tenant to quit the remaining 200 acres. Will the effect of his having sold part of the farm, and of the purchaser having given notice to the tenant, be to entitle the tenant to give notice to the landlord to quit the remainder of the farm and demand compensation from the landlord? That, I am told, is the effect of the amendment made by the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I understood the noble Lord perfectly well. That is the effect of the Act as it is to-day. All we are now doing is to say that if that happens the tenant shall not lose his right to compensation.
LORD STRACHIE: It is the landlord and not the tenant who is damnified. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will let me come and talk the matter over with him.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: Will the noble and learned Viscount let me ask him this question? A landlord lets a farm to a tenant, and it is agreed that should the landlord require to take possession of a certain portion of the farm at an agreed rent, then that can be done. Suppose the landlord does do that, and the tenant under this new proposal gives the landlord notice to quit, will the tenant be entitled to compensation, although he had agreed when he took the farm to surrender part of it when called upon?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not here to answer hypothetical questions,
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but I should be inclined to answer "No." At all events, this Bill does not affect that question.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
The Schedule:

SCHEDULE.

  MINOR AMENDMENTS.
  Enactments to be amended.

  Amendments.

  Settled Land Act, 1925.

  S. 13

  For the words "without notice "of any settlement" there shall be substituted the words "without notice of such tenant for life or statutory owner having become so entitled as aforesaid."

  THE MARQUESS OF BRISTOL THE MARQUESS OF BRISTOL moved, after the reference to Section 13, to insert the following new paragraph:
  "S. 31……at the end of subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:—
  "Where there are trustees for the purposes of this Act of the instrument under which there is a tenant for life or statutory owner but there are no trustees for those purposes of a prior instrument, being one of the instruments by which a compound settlement is constituted, those trustees shall, unless and until trustees are appointed of the prior instrument or of the compound settlement, be the trustees for the purposes of this Act of the compound settlement."
  The noble Marquess said: The object of my Amendment is to enable a tenant for life of settled estate to comply with the requirements of the Law of Property Act, 1926, with as little expense as may be. After the passing of the Law of Property Act, before the owner can deal with any of his land, by sale, enfranchisement or anything of that sort, he has to ask his trustees to put him in possession of his property by executing a vesting deed. In many cases before the deed of settlement was executed the land which is comprised in that deed of settlement was by previous deed subject to various charges. When this has occurred what is called a compound settlement is constituted and before a vesting deed covering the whole property can be executed it may be necessary for the owner to make application to the Court to appoint trustees who can act under the Settled Land Acts, far the purpose

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  of the Law of Property Act, 1925. I am told that it would usually be found that the trustees of the settlement would be the trustees to be appointed for these prior deeds.
  That is the, real reason why I have brought in this Amendment, for under it, without any extra cost to the owner, and without unnecessarily having to employ counsel to go to the Court, and, further than that, without unnecessarily taking up the time of His Majesty's Judges in Chambers to settle who those trustees ought to be, under this Amendment I believe the trustees of the settlement will be enabled straight away to execute the necessary vesting deed. Great expense has been put upon the owners of property in order to comply with the Law of Property Act, and it does seem to me that at the present time the less these expenses are put upon the owners of property the better. If we can reduce the costs that are at the present time put upon them by the Act of 1925, surely it should be done and done as soon as possible. I have been in communication with a good many solicitors, and it has been astonishing to me to find the unanimity with which all of them have blessed me for bringing in this Amendment.
  One would naturally have thought that the legal profession would have been pleased to get the chance of bringing a, lot of legal work to hear, because it would give them extra remuneration, but in this case it seems that, so far as solicitors are concerned, their ideas as to how this sort of vesting deed should be carried out have been so upset that they are in a great quandary as to how to carry on. People do not seem really to know what ought to be done. In one ease a solicitor wrote to me to say that in regard to one settled property no fewer than six prior deeds would have to be taken to Court to determine what trustees would, in the ordinary course, be able to give the owner this vesting deed. That particular property has no income, and yet before anything can be sold that property will have to find the money for very large costs, unless this Amendment goes through. I should like to thank the noble Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, for the help which I have received from his Department in drafting
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  my Amendment, and I only hope it may appeal to your Lordships arid go through. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved.—
  "In the Schedule, page 5, line 12, at end insert the said new paragraph."—(The Marquess of Bristol.)
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I hope that the Government will accept the Amendment moved by the noble Marquess. I can speak very feelingly on this Amendment, because I am one of the sufferers from the land legislation passed within recent years, and because I myself am in the happy—or unhappy—position of having no less than half-a-dozen settlements on my property. It is absolutely necessary in these cases that we should have some sort of statutory power whereby the trustees of an existing settlement should also be trustees, unless others are appointed, of a prior settlement. In my own case—and I know of others—there are instances of settlements made very nearly 100 years ago which are still kept alive by reason of a jointure or other annuity charge on the settled estates, under some power contained in a very old settlement which would have otherwise come to an end. There may be several legal instruments in existence owing to settlements or re-settlements, made from time to time, and all those legal instruments may still live, owing to these annuitants still drawing the rent charges or annuities.
  I must take this opportunity of again thanking the noble and learned Viscount for the sympathetic way in which he has met the demands of those who are interested in this subject. There are many more cases of this kind, perhaps, than he dreams of, though the sufferers may not yet have found out their misfortunes, as some of us have. It is extremely difficult to persuade trustees to retire, and extremely expensive, too, and it is almost impossible to carry on the management of landed properties in these days when they bring in no income, when expenses are increased by having two or three or possibly more different sets of trustees.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sure we all sympathise with the woes of noble Lords who are possessed of large estates, and I am only too anxious to help them

  735
  in every way that I reasonably can. The noble Marquess has made a proposal which is, I think, a very helpful one. He is dealing with a case which only happens on large estates, where there is a whole series of settlements succeeding one another. There may be two or three or even more settlements of the same property made by different generations, and a little bit of the earlier settlement is left, and so it continues, and the whole series make up what is called a compound settlement. Of course, every settlement must have trustees, otherwise the land cannot be safely dealt with. The noble Marquess puts forward a case where there are trustees of the last settlement, but no trustees of the preceding one, and in such a case, as the law stands, you must get trustees appointed of the preceding one, or of the compound settlement as a whole, before you deal with the land. That must, of course, lead to delay and expense, and the noble Marquess proposes that in such a case the trustees of the last settlement shall be the trustees of the whole until new trustees are appointed, either of the earlier settlement or of the whole. It seems to me a very reasonable proposal and one which will save time and trouble, and I hope the House will accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

TRADE FACILITIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, there is no new principle involved in the Bill of which I move the Second Reading to-day. Similar Bills have been approved and supported by all Parties in the House. Briefly, this Bill affects two separate schemes—the trade facilities scheme and the export credits scheme. In so far as the trade facilities scheme is concerned the object of this Bill is, first, to increase from£70,000,000 to£75,000,000 the total loans which may be guaranteed; and, in the second place, to extend the period during which they may be guaranteed to March 31, 1927. As far as the export credits scheme is concerned the objects are to extend, first, the time before which credits and guarantees can be given from September 8, 1926, to September 8, 1929;
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and, secondly, the date up to which these guarantees may remain in force from September 8, 1930, to September 8, 1933. I should like to say, with regard to the trade facilities scheme, that it is expected that on March 31 of this year there will be an unused balance of£5,000,000. That, together with the extra£5,000,000 for which provision is made in this Bill, will leave£10,000,000 available for the year 1926–27.
As your Lordships know, these guarantees are granted on the advice and recommendation of an independent committee, and the principal object of the Bill is to relieve unemployment as far as possible by granting these guarantees for loans, the proceeds of which are used in creating work to give employment to people in this country. The arguments which were brought forward in favour of this Bill obtain now just as much as they did in years past—namely, that there is a very large amount of unemployment in the country at the moment, that there is very serious depression in trade, and that there is altogether a lack of industrial enterprise. I think it is generally admitted that these guarantees have served their purpose. They have been of considerable value—exactly how much is very difficult to say, but they have, up to a point, achieved their object and relieved the situation; and, in addition to that, very small losses have, up to the present, been made with regard to the trade facilities scheme. I think that the same remark and the same arguments may be applied to the export credits scheme. The guarantees under the export credits scheme have proved of very considerable value, and in that case also the losses up to the present have been very small. As far as export credits are concerned under this Bill, there is no intention of increasing the maximum of£26,000,000 which has been made available for use. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, this Bill has been before you each year now for some years, and there has usually been some debate, so I desire to make a few observations to-day. First, I would say that, so far as the passage of the Bill through another place is concerned, I can

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scarcely remember a measure which was commended to the House by the Government of the day with less enthusiasm. In fact, I think it would be no exaggeration to say that the Bill was regarded by many of the supporters of the Government and, indeed, by the Minister in charge with an almost ill-concealed dislike. The noble Earl in your Lordships' House has treated the matter in a, somewhat different vein and I am glad of it. Why is it that this Bill is so disliked by the Conservative Party? Nobody could read what happened in another place without coming to the conclusion that it was disliked. The reason is, of course, that this Bill in its aspects is very much more in accordance with the principles of the Labour Party and the principles of Socialism than with the principles of the Government of the day. This Bill is a measure of State assistance to industry in the form of guaranteed credit and, therefore, is in principle opposed to the doctrines of laissez faire and unassisted private enterprise which the Government profess but which they are being driven more and more to abandon.
VISCOUNT PEEL: Laissez faire is a Liberal doctrine.
LORD ARNOLD: The noble Viscount says it is a Liberal doctrine, but it is one to which, as I understand, the Conservative Party fully subscribes. Indeed, the intervention of the noble Viscount does not really affect my point, because I do not think I should be wrong in saying that there were many speeches made in another place regarding this Bill—one or two at any rate I think I saw—from the Liberal side of the House, which were by no means too favourable. I say that this Bill is much more in accordance with the principles of the Labour Party than with the principles of the Government. That does not mean that we are satisfied with the Bill. We are not. This Bill does not go nearly so far as we should like, and we have asked this year as we have asked before that in return for the very valuable State credits, which are given in the last resort at the expense of the taxpayers, there should be some participation the assets created. That has been our contention. I say it is a right and reasonable contention. Indeed, there
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has been no adequate reply to it; but the Government have refused to accede to our views in that respect.
A good deal has been said from time to time in regard to the effect of these Acts upon the national credit and I should like to look at that point for a moment. In so far as under this Act there are created new trustee securities—and the loans made under these Acts are trustee securities—to that extent the competition with existing trustee securities may be, at certain times, and indeed looking at the matter as a whole, may be appreciable. But when we consider the question of the effect upon the national credit from the more general standpoint I do not think that any case of substance can be made out to the effect that these Acts are a serious factor in relation to the national credit.
I would say two things about that. In the first place, the total National Debt of the country now amounts to somewhere about£7,500,000,000, and as these guarantees are extended under this Bill, as the noble Earl said, to a total amount of£75,000,000 so far as trade facilities are concerned, that total amounts to 1 per cent., broadly speaking, of our whole National Debt. That is, of course, a small proportion. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that there is a very great difference between Debt created against which there are no assets and Debt created against which there are assets. If the view is taken that these Trade Facilities Acts increase the National Debt by the sum of£75,000,000—and in a sense that view may be taken—it is vitally important to bear in mind that for every penny of that money, practically speaking, there is value, because assets are created. Indeed, it may be argued, and I think it should be argued, that as new assets are brought into being through the operation of these Acts the national credit is really helped; because credit depends in the last resort upon taxable capacity, and the productive enterprises brought into being owing to these Acts all go to increase the taxable capacity of the country.
Apart from that, there are the important considerations to which the noble Earl referred, particularly the effect which these issues have had in helping unemployment. I did not hear him mention

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the figure and I do not bind myself to it, but I think it is correct to say that these Acts have been the means of finding employment, so at any rate it has been estimated, for about 100,000 men. That is a very considerable achievement. It is true that on the debit side regard must be had to the losses which may be incurred and which may ultimately come back upon the taxpayer. So far those losses have been extremely small; I think I am right in saying that they have not amounted to more than about£25,000. That, of course, is not a sum to be disregarded in itself; but in relation to the total operations of a. sum of£70,000,000 to£75,000,000 the amount cannot be regarded as of very great moment.
Before I sit down I should like to say a word or two about Clause 2 of the Bill. That clause relates to export credits and prolongs the period for guaranteeing export credits. I am not objecting to that; I support, it. I am not proposing to occupy your Lordships' time with any general discussion of the question of export credits, but I believe it is generally agreed that this export credit scheme has not had the success which was originally anticipated. It has not been availed of to the extent which was hoped and, indeed, which was expected. There are many reasons for that. I will not throw the whole blame upon the Government Department concerned. I do not think it would be fair to do so. But I do not think they are free from blame. Government officials are scarcely at their best in understanding the psychology of business men, particularly the business men of the North—of Lancashire and Yorkshire. These men will not submit to having too many obstacles, too many pettifogging and irritating inquiries and delays in regard to their business transactions. Rather than that they will not resort to the export credit scheme at all, and in a number of cases I am afraid that is what has happened, owing to certain experiences arising out of this scheme.
Again, I do not consider that the Overseas Trade Department, from certain knowledge which has come to me—I am not making this charge in relation to anything like the total transactions—have sufficiently realised in a number of cases that the export credit scheme cannot be worked without certain risks. It was, of
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course, the very genesis of the scheme that unless there was this Government assistance certain business which might be undertaken would not be undertaken. That was the whole basis of it. The whole idea was to encourage trade in the difficult conditions of post-War unsettlement. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Government should sanction business which is definitely unwise and definitely too doubtful; but, on the other hand, if the attitude is to be taken up, as I am afraid it has been taken up on certain occasions, that very little risk should be run, then the scheme is not being worked as I think it should be worked.
Let me put it like this. Even if, by the granting of these credits, there should be a somewhat higher percentage of ultimate loss than in the case of ordinary business, it could well be argued that on balance this country would be the gainer under the total transactions of the export credit scheme. I do suggest that the officials who administer this scheme ought not to take up too rigid an attitude. I am not blaming the officials for this, because I think the decision rests more, with the Government; in any case, the Government are ultimately responsible. But this is a most important matter of procedure under the Act, and I am referring to the question of export credits for Russia. The noble Viscount says he thought I should come to that. Why should I not get to it? It is a most important matter. If the noble Viscount studied the statistics of the trade that is being done by other countries with Russia—valuable trade that we are not getting—he would not be so ready to intervene in a spirit almost, it seems to me, of levity. The fact is that the economic position of Russia is improving steadily, and the trade which is being secured by some of our competitors is very considerable and very valuable.
There is a further point in this connection, and it is this. Anybody who knows anything about Russian trade in the past—and I have no reason to think that the temperament of the Russian people has changed materially in this respect—knows that they are very conservative, and that once they do trade in certain channels the tendency is for that trade to remain in those channels. We have a great opportunity to supply Russia, particularly with various kinds of

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textile and agricultural machinery, to a very much larger extent than we are doing now, and we are missing that owing to the prejudice and obstinate attitude of the Government. If we secured that trade it would not be merely the present trade but trade for long years to come, which would be of the greatest value to our manufacturers. That is one thing I have in mind when I say that even if it were the case in regard to some of these transactions that the percentage of loss was greater than in ordinary transactions, it might well be, taking the long view, that they would pay this country and pay it well. This matter has been discussed n another place. The Government remain in their position, as I think, of quite rigid and unfair opposition to this extension of the export credits scheme. Our trade might be increased and our unemployment might he lessened, and this is not being done owing to the attitude of the Government. Consequently our manufacturers and workers at home are suffering. In a general way, however, we on this Bench support this Bill.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, as far as I gathered from the speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down its whole object was to indict the Government for not lending money to certain people to enable them to trade with Russia. Russia is a country that has broken all her financial obligations and during the years that I spent in the City I was always told that it was bad business to have a bargain with somebody who had already broken his bargains with other people. Apparently the noble Lord thinks otherwise. May I ask him why the co-operative societies, who have large sums of money and are, I understand, more or less in relation with the Labour Party, do not enter into trade relations with Russia? Apparently it is because they are too wise to do so, and prefer to trade with other people.
I am sorry that the Government have introduced this Bill. I think it is based on a wrong principle. I objected to that principle when it was first introduced in another place some years ago by, if I remember rightly, Mr. Lloyd George, who was then Prime Minister and who, whatever his other qualities may be, is certainly not a financial
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expert. What is the object of the Bill? Its object is to say to certain people: "You desire to borrow money in order to carry on a certain trade. You do not go to your bankers; you do not go to the public and ask them to provide money; but you conic to the taxpayer and ask him to do so." If it is good business the money can be got from the public or from the banker. If it is bad business then the taxpayer does not want to do it. The only possible advantage is this, that the people who borrow money with the Government guarantee get it rather more cheaply than they would do if they borrowed it from a. bank, or went to the public and borrowed it as an ordinary company. But why should the taxpayer enable certain financial people to make a larger profit? It does not cure unemployment in the least. The money would be found whether the Government guaranteed it or not, always provided that the object was good. All that this Bill does is to enable certain people to obtain their money rather more cheaply than they otherwise would do, and consequently to make a little more for themselves.
The noble Lord who has just sat down said something respecting whether or not these trade facility loans depressed financial credit. It is perfectly clear that the more sellers you have of an article the lower the price of that article will be, and the more buyers, provided the buyers outnumber the sellers, the more the price of the article will increase. I do not absolutely pledge myself to these figures, but I think I am more or less correct when I say that within the next three years something like£1,000,000,000 of money will have to be found by the Government, and, therefore, what they ought to do is to stop all borrowing now so as to leave the market as free as possible for them when they come to renew this£1,000,000,000, or whatever the amount may be.
Instead of that I am sorry to see that they are not only extending the old£70,000,000, but they are talking about borrowing another£33,000,000 for an electricity scheme and, if the Coal Report is adopted, another£100,000,000 to buy the mining royalties. They are going on as if we were a prosperous country with any amount of money and did not know what to do with it. I hope that the noble

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Viscount, Lord Peel, with whom I once had the pleasure of sitting on a banking board, will endeavour to impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if he wants to save the country from bankruptcy and wants to restore prosperity, the first thing he has to do is to stop borrowing unless he is absolutely bound to borrow. The next thing is to endeavour to economise on the various Services, which, I am sorry to see, he is not doing, and so reduce the burden of taxation which is killing industry. If taxation were reduced that, to a great extent, would provide a remedy for the evils under which we are suffering.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, perhaps you will allow me to say one brief word in reply to the noble Lord opposite, Lord Arnold. May I first thank my noble friend Lord Banbury of Southam for again returning to the charge on the question of economy. I hope he will constantly do so and I can assure him that any suggestions he may make for a reduction of expenditure will always be listened to and most favourably considered by the Government. The noble Lord opposite, Lord Arnold, at the beginning of his speech, said there was not very much enthusiasm for this Bill in the ranks of the Conservatives in another place. He said it was very coldly received and very coldly pressed, and he seemed to think the reason for that was that it was contrary to Conservative principles and inconsistent with the general lines of laissez faire. It is rather interesting to find a great love for laissez faire attributed to the Party to which I belong, because I understood the main credit for retaining those famous words was to be attributed to the noble Earl and his friends on the Liberal Benches.
In the last few years, when I have had the honour of introducing on other occasions Bills for the safeguarding of industry, it has generally been the charge that we have not been sufficiently devoted to the principle of laissez faire rather than any undue addiction to it. But there is, of course, a much more businesslike and matter of fact reason than that why measures of this kind are disliked by the Conservative Party. It is because they are signs that trade is still bad and that there is still a very large number of unemployed, and it is because of that
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that the State has recourse to these—palliatives shall I call them?—trade facilities and export credits. Everybody wishes, except perhaps the noble Lord, to see this state of affairs in industry done away with, because it would be a sign of growing development of trade and of the possibility of letting trade take care of itself.
The noble Lord referred to State participation in assets created. I am not sure what particular participation he desires to see by the State, or what assets he considered were created, but the great advantage which the State gets from this, apart from the question of Income Tax on profits, is the reduction in the number of unemployed and consequently a less call on the State for provision for the unemployed. Obviously, the whole scheme fails unless the number of unemployed is reduced and unless employment is given. My noble friend behind me dealt very sensibly with the question of the effect on national credit. The noble Lord, Lord Arnold, seemed to think it did not very much matter how large were the loans issued, provided, as he said, there were some assets behind them. I do not think a general proposition of that kind would commend itself to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who must have, as the noble Lord behind me said, in the years before us very large schemes of conversion and these schemes must be affected if any amount of trustee securities, or securities in the nature of trustee securities, giving a higher income exist in which people can invest their money.
There was another criticism, which I think was rather unfortunate, about the number of officials under the Export Credits Acts. It is precisely not officials who decide What bills shall be guaranteed. Of course, the Board of Trade must be ultimately responsible, but the business is entrusted mainly to a committee of bankers and business people who are most competent to decide when credits should be allowed. My noble friend behind me seemed to draw too sharp a distinction between what he called good and bad business. There is a sort of intermediate business, which is neither good nor bad, and my noble friend's mind rune on rather too rigid lines in that connection, because all these suggestions for raising credits and for the Government guarantee come through the banks and as they come through the banks

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it is pretty obvious that if they are good business, or quite good business, the banks may very likely take them up themselves. Then they are passed by this committee of business men.
I think the test really of whether they are good or bad business is what are the losses that have been incurred. As my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth said, the losses are really quite small on this export credits scheme. It is true that full advantage has not been taken of it. My noble friend is perfectly right in saying that the full value of£26,000,000 has never been taken advantage of, and as regards export credits I think they have never gone further than about£5,000,000. But it is a revolving credit and the amount of business cannot be measured by merely stating the amount outstanding at any one time. The noble Lord opposite wants to increase, I think, the amount of export credit and he wants also to increase the risk. I said some words in reference to Russia. If I may say so to the noble Lord I really did not intend him to hear them. I used them sotto voce but the noble Lord's ears are so keen that he heard. I did say that probably we should get to the question of Russia sooner or later, and I will only say one word on that. The noble Lord opposite attacked the Government most vigorously for its extraordinary stupidity and blindness when other countries were doing business with Russia and said we were losing great opportunities. We are not losing any opportunities at all. Nobody prevents anybody in this country doing business with Russia. All these great societies, whatever they may be, trade unions or co-operative societies, can invest their money in Russia if they wish.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: They know better.
VISCOUNT PEEL: It is a very remarkable thing that they do not do it. Although politically and outside on the platforms they share the enthusiasm of the noble Lord, when as good business men they sit round a table and consider where to put their money, for some reason—whether it is due to business or political prejudice I do not know—they do not put money in Russia. There is a deeper reason arising out of the economic condition of Russia itself. The noble Lord opposite asks why not grant these
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credits in Russia. Perhaps it might be done if there were any traders in Russia, but there are not. The people who would get the credits would be the Russian Government because the peasants and the Centrosoyus are only another expression of the business facet as it were of the Russian Government. What you would be doing would be to grant further credits to people who have already declared that they are going to repudiate their debts. Does the noble Lord really suggest that that should be done? Does he think the business position of this country has been built up by giving credit to people who have repudiated existing debts? If he does think so, I confess I do not think the noble Lord is very deeply acquainted with the history of the successful business career of this country. However that may be, I support a Bill of this kind because, unfortunately, it is still necessary and because, unfortunately, there is still a large number of unemployed. I think it is possible that some further decrease in the number of our unemployed may be brought about through the action of this Bill, although certainly I should be glad to see the whole of the Bill swept away because that would mean a return of trade and prosperity to this country.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committe of the Whole House.

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (NORTHERN IRELAND AGREEMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, this Bill is required to confirm an Agreement between the Treasury and the Ministry of Finance in Northern Ireland. I do not think that it is necessary for me to go into the details of the Agreement at any length, but I will try briefly to explain its objects. The underlying idea is that Northern Ireland, so far as unemployment insurance is concerned, should be in a position to maintain the same rate of contributions and benefits as prevails in this country. I think your Lordships will agree that this is an eminently desirable object, for, at the time of the passing of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, the Government of Northern

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Ireland made it perfectly clear that they felt that the Act should in no way have the effect of depressing their social services.
The Act of 1920 made unemployment insurance a Transferred Service, but it was not believed at that time that any financial difficulties would arise in connection with it. As a matter of fact, ever since that time the position in Northern Ireland has gradually been getting relatively worse compared with that in this country. In 1925 the percentage of insured persons unemployed in the two countries was, in Great Britain, 11 per cent., and in Northern Ireland, 23·9 per cent. Taking another figure as an example, up to September 30 last year the loans made by the respective Exchequers to their respective Unemployment Insurance Funds were, in Great Britain,£7,935,000, and in Northern Ireland,£3,614,000. Your Lordships will see that these figures are out of all proportion, and it is quite clear that, if matters were allowed to rest where they are, Northern Ireland would have to cut down the benefits paid under its insurance scheme very drastically indeed.
The first object of this Agreement is to keep the two Funds at parity for the period from September 30, 1925, 0 March 31, 1926, and for the four succeeding years, and this is to be done by additional payments, if necessary, from the Exchequer of the country in which the poorer Fund exists to its Unemployment Insurance Fund. After that there is an equalisation payment from one Exchequer to the other, but I think I should point out here that this contribution is to be calculated, not on the total of the insured population in the respective countries, but on the basis of the total population, for the simple reason that the percentage of insured people in Northern Ireland is smaller than in this country and it would therefore be obviously unfair to this country if the calculation were made on the basis of insured people only. In addition, as a recognition of the fact that each country keeps an independent control over its unemployment insurance system, it is stipulated in this Agreement that only 75 per cent. of the sum required to equalise the charge per head of population will be paid over from one Exchequer to the other.
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I really do not think that it is necessary for me to go into any further details. The net result of the whole transaction is that the contribution of the British Exchequer for this year will be about£680,090. It is very difficult, owing to the uncertain industrial conditions, to say at all accurately what will be the position in the future, but the contribution from the British Exchequer for the year 1926–7 has provisionally been fixed at£875,000, and it is hoped that it will not exceed that sum in any succeeding year. I should add that, in order to safeguard the British Exchequer against an unlimited liability, the Northern Irish Government have undertaken that, should the contribution from the British Exchequer exceed the sum of£1,000,000 in any one year, the Imperial Government shall be free, with out any question of breach of the Agreement, to re-open the question upon its merits. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, the noble Earl, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, did not stress the financial commitments involved, and, indeed, I scarcely think that any of your Lordships listening to him, who might not be familiar with the provisions of the Bill and with the White, Paper that has been issued in connection therewith, would realise that the effect of this Bill is extremely likely to be a cost to the British taxpayers of between£4,000,000 and£5,000,000 With commendable discretion the noble Earl avoided giving that impression, but I will supply the deficiency because I think that the facts about this Bill ought to be fully known.
The noble Earl said that in the current year the cost to the Exchequer of Great Britain would be£680,000 and that it had been estimated that in the following year the cost might be£875,000. He did not tell your Lordships that the cost in the following three years as well is likely to be about£875,000 per annum, and may indeed reach£1,000,000. Even on the basis of£875,000 for four years, with the addition of£680,000 for the current year, the costs come to over£4,000,000, and, if the item amounts each year after the current year, as it may do, to£1,000,000, the total will be nearly£5,000,000. More-

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over, there is a clause in the Agreement, to which the noble Earl referred, under which, if the liability, supposing it were all discharged by this country, were to come to more than£1,000,000, then the matter is to come up for review; and I have no doubt whatever, having regard to the fact that the Government have on this occasion given way to Ulster that they would give way again, so that the ultimate cost might, indeed, be distinctly more than£5,000,000.
This Bill is only another example of the propensity, I might almost say the practice, of his Majesty's present advisers to settle their difficulties by a cash payment at the expense of the taxpayers of Great Britain. Sometimes it is a cash payment and sometimes it is a gift, as in the case of the Italian Debt settlement. But whether it is a cash payment, or, in effect, a gift, it is a very expensive matter for the British taxpayer. Thus it comes about that under the present Government—and I shall have a word or two to say about its professions of economy in a moment—the Chancellor of the Exchequer is at his wits' end for money. Of course, the Government always has a defence for its extravagances that is satisfactory to itself. In the present case the defence is the hardships of Ulster. We in the Labour Party are not unmindful of the hardships of Ulster, and I shall have a word or two to say about that in a moment, but, whatever may be said about the hardships of Ulster, the broad fact remains that this request, or a request for money in connection with Ulster's Unemployment Fund, has been made to the British Exchequer for years and has always hitherto been refused. It was refused by Mr. Baldwin in 1923 when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer; it was refused by Mr. Neville Chamberlain when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer; it was refused by Mr. Philip Snowden when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer; and it now falls to this present Government, with all its vaunted professions of economy, to accede where, on three or four separate occasions in the past, the request has been refused. The present Government has given way, and thus it is that we have this Bill which, as I pointed out, may cost the taxpayer£4,000,000 or£5,000,000, or even in certain circumstances more than that.
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We in the Labour Party are not unmindful of the hardships of Ulster, and we recognise that owing to exceptional depression in her two main industries—shipbuilding and linen—the Unemployment Fund of Ulster has run into debit to a very large extent., and we are quite willing to assist Ulster in that dilemna. But what we have proposed, and surely it is most reasonable, is that these millions should not be given to Northern Ireland out-and-out, but should be lent to Northern Ireland as a loan, so that when the good days come again for Northern Ireland, as no doubt they will come, this money that we have advanced, and which we can very ill afford to lose, and which this Bill is going to lose altogether, may be returned to us.
There is an extremely good precedent for this proposal in what is happening in regard to our own Unemployment Fund. Our own Fund in this country is in debit. It ran into debit at one time to the extent of£17,000,000. Happily, that sum has now been reduced. and stands at between£7,000,000 and£8,000,000, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not then come to the House of Commons and say: "Well, here is this Unemployment Fund not doing well, the conditions are worse than were anticipated, and I propose that we pay the money out of the taxes, in order to put the matter right." Not at all. What happened was that our own Unemployment Fund went into debit and the money was borrowed at 3 per cent. interest. All we propose is that exactly the same procedure should be followed in regard to these millions which are now to be given to Northern Ireland. No adequate reply has been given to that contention. No adequate reply can be given to it, because it is so right and proper and so in accordance with what is happening in this country.
I say, then, that the attitude of the Government is one which is open to great criticism, and it is specially open to great criticism in view of their professions about economy and their professed desire to retrench. This is not the occasion—I wish it were—for a general debate on the question of economy, but the time will conic, and come within a few weeks, when we shall have an opportunity here of reviewing that whole problem in detail. It will

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then be very easy to show, I am sorry to say, and to prove to within five places of decimals, what a hollow mockery the Government's professions as to economy are, and how tragically the Chancellor of the Exchequer has failed in carrying out the policy of retrenchment which he put before the country last year, and which the noble Marquess opposite supported, and how completely falsified have been the expectations which the noble Marquess held out a short time ago. When that opportunity for debate comes we on this side will undoubtedly take it.
I think the attitude of the Government with regard to this Bill is singularly unfortunate in view of the mean and shabby way in which they have retrenched on the social services, health and so on, and propose to raid the benefit funds of the health societies of the workers. That brings into very disagreeable and ugly contrast the attitude of the Government in regard to this Bill and towards the proposal we have put forward that this money should not be given but lent to Northern Ireland. I have no hope that the economists in this House will get up and support our proposal. I know that the Bill will be passed on to the Statute Book. I am sorry Lord Banbury is not in his place. He has a reputation for being an economist, which, as I have said before, is not very well based, because his only idea of economy is to cut down schemes for benefiting the working classes, and when it comes to spending money on the fighting Services the more money that is spent the better he is pleased. Still, if he were in his place he might have given some support to our proposal, which is so right and reasonable in itself.
I hope, although this Bill will pass, that the Government, before they bring forward another Bill, as they may be tempted to do—for instance, if the million mark should be exceeded—will then pay more attention to the proposal that the money should be advanced and not given. Meanwhile this Bill will go on the Statute Book as another tribute to the extravagance of the Government and another proof that under this present Administration we are not going to have any real economy at all.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I am quite unable to understand the
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heat which the noble Lord has put into his speech. I am not going to follow him into the realms of economy. It is really quite irrelevant on this Bill. I think this is a matter of elementary justice, and the noble Lord has not denied the contention that it is only right and fair that Ulster should not suffer in her social services as a result of the Act of 1920. I do not think the noble Lord disagrees with that contention. The only suggestion he has made is that this money should be lent and not given to Ulster. I think he is labouring under a certain misapprehension. The suggestion seems to imply that the whole of the deficiency of the Ulster Fund is to be made up in this way. That is not so. All that is being done is that these equalisation payments are being made to wipe out only the excess of the deficiency over the amount which may be proportionate to the British Fund's deficiency, which is a very different thing. I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HYDE PARK TRAFFIC.
THE EARL OF AIRLIE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question of which I have given Notice—namely, whether the attention of His Majesty's Government has been called to the various suggestions which have appeared in the Press for removing the railings on the east side of Hyde Park, and permitting heavy traffic to use the road over the Serpentine; and what is their attitude towards these proposals.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, there are, of course, several proposals besides those that appear on the Paper for diminishing the amenities and reducing the pleasure which now people take in Hyde Park, but I will deal, as he has suggested them, with the two which appear on the Paper in the Question of the noble Earl. I think it will be generally admitted that no one would wish either to diminish the area of Hyde Park, or to reduce the amenities, until some overwhelming reason for doing so were given.
I would like to examine whether any such reason has been given, but first of all let me point out that these proposals

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would entail considerable expense. Take the Serpentine, for instance. I understand that in order to leave that road open for heavy traffic the road itself would have to be largely relaid, and the present bridge over the Serpentine would have to be greatly strengthened. It would, of course, be impossible to leave the Park entirely open all night, and obviously, if you were going to leave that road open for all kinds of traffic, it would not do to have the road closed at eleven or twelve o'clock at night. It would he necessary, therefore, to bring another set of railings—and it is very difficult to find railings which are in themselves very beautiful things—along the whole of the east side of that road. I am not giving very accurate figures, because they are only a kind of general estimate, and might be a good deal exceeded, but I am advised that the price of carrying out these alterations would be something like£200,000.
As regards the east side of the Park, the proposal, I understand, is that the east road should be thrown open to general traffic. At present lighter traffic goes down the road, and the heavy traffic goes down Park Lane, and I am told by the Ministry of Transport that that arrangement is thoroughly satisfactory. Well, if this proposal were carried out, you would, of course, take away the present railing on the east side of the Park, and, in order to allow the Park to be closed at night, you would have to move that railing on to the west side of the east road—I presume carrying it a little beyond the roadway where people walk at present. This clearly would entail having a rather large series of gates constructed, one over the south road, one over the road going to the Serpentine, and one over the north road where it turns away from the Marble Arch. Further there would have to be a certain number of openings for pedestrians, who otherwise would not find it easy to get into the Park. The whole of the east road would again have to be remodelled for heavy traffic.
In addition to that considerable changes would have to be made in the entrances to the Park itself. You would have to alter the gates on the north side, and you would also have to find some new opening out of the Park at Hyde Park Corner. You would have three alternatives. You might buy and remove Apsley House, and come out in that
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way into Piccadilly, or you might entirely alter or remodel—if you are sufficiently a Philistine to do so—the present arches through which traffic now goes; or, if you did not decide to do that, you would have to pass round the north side of these arches, and come out at a very inconvenient place for traffic somewhere opposite St. George's Hospital. All that would cause a very considerable amount of traffic, and, in addition to that, you would have to leave the strip between the Hyde Park road and Park Lane, I presume, as it was dedicated to general traffic, in the hands of the local authorities. I am not at all sure that the local authorities would appreciate having the extra cost thrown on the rates. Anyhow, the area of Hyde Park would in that way be diminished, and the extra noise, smell and general stress from all the heavy vehicles and traffic would further invade the Park and diminish its amenities.
I have consulted my hon. friend the Minister of Transport as to whether, from a transport point of view, there is any reason for invading the Park in this manner and diminishing its pleasantness, and his advice is that it is totally unnecessary on the score of traffic requirements. In these circumstances I trust that your Lordships will give me every support in resisting proposals of this kind, made by Philistines who apparently want to diminish the amenities of the Park and curtail the pleasures of the people.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount for the very reassuring speech which he has made on behalf of himself and of the Minister of Transport. Those are the two chief Ministers concerned, and I am glad to think that I need not pay too much attention to the recent vivacities of the Home Office on this subject. May I occupy two or three moments of your Lordships' time in commenting on this proposal? It seems to be assumed that new roads provide the only remedy for our transport difficulties. That really is not the case. It is not by any means the sole remedy, and one remedy which, no doubt, is bringing itself into being naturally, but which should be stimulated, is the removal from our roads of the slow-going traffic. Were this slow-

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going traffic, which has always had an inclination to keep as near the middle of the road as possible, eliminated and replaced for business purposes by mechanical traffic, the increased user of the road would in some cases automatically multiply by 50 per cent, if not more.
In the second place, may I say a thing which is no doubt very old-fashioned, perhaps very stupid—that, in my opinion, speed in itself is not a final ideal? It is very useful when you have to catch a train, it is no doubt useful when you want to send for a doctor, but writers, speakers, and thinkers on the problem seem to imagine that speed in itself is an ideal which must be pursued and maintained at any cost. In that relation it is worth bearing in mind that notwithstanding all the congestion in London to-day, which, judging from newspaper correspondence, you would think amounted really to a serious national crisis, the speed with which you can move from one end of London to the other is more than twice as great as it was twenty years ago. That is a striking fact which, I think, must be taken into account by those who wish to run these new roads all through our towns, all through our parks, and all through the country. I am not at all sure that, commercially speaking, the value of the speed thus attained is worth having. I think that, if there were a little less speed attained in meeting engagements needless engagements would not be made, and the business men would give much more attention to the subject-matter of the really important meetings they have to attend.
Then again, I think that the new roads can be over-rated commercially. It is assumed that if you plank down a new road you are doing something which is good for the commerce of the country. I am not at all sure that that is the case. I am not at all sure that the volume of commerce justifies the expenditure
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upon these roads, and certainly some of these roads are being monopolised to-day by "scorchers" and those who use the roads for professional trials of motor cars. I will make one final observation, strictly in reference to this proposal to take a slice off the Park. Speed is very necessary, but in my opinion speed in a huge metropolis like London must not be purchased at the expense of the health and the repose of the community. Every slice you take off Hyde Park throws back the area of repose so many yards and removes from the Park so many acres and to that extent is a direct diminution of the health and the repose of the community. We have in central London the most remarkable series of urban parks in the whole world. Nothing in France, nothing in Germany, nothing in the United States can approach them; because here they are central; elsewhere, as in Dublin and at Edinburgh, they are on the outskirts of the city. They are a. most precious asset of the Metropolis and I rejoice that the First Commissioner of Works should have spoken so strongly in their defence.

PETROLEUM BILL. [H.L.]
LORD DESBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Petroleum Acts, 1871 to 1879, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Desborough.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL.
Report from His Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at half past six o'clock.

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Messrs. Hoare Trustees [H.L.].
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders, not complied with in respect of the petition for additional provision in the
Swindon Corporation Bill
ought to be dispensed with:—
Read, and agreed to.

BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
DARWEN CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

DARLINGTON GAS ORDER, 1926.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the aldermen and burgesses of the Borough of Darlington:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WELSHPOOL AND DISTRICT ELECTRI CITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of the Boroughs of Welshpool and Montgomery, and the rural district of Forden, in the County of Montgomery:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

GWYRFAI AND OGWEN RURAL DISTRICTS ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of parts of the rural districts of Gwyrfai and Ogwen, in the County of Carnarvon:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

LITTLEHAMPTON ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of the urban district of Littlehampton, in the Administrative County of West Sussex:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

SANDBACH, ALSAGER AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of the urban districts of Sandbach and Alsager and the rural district of Congleton, in the County of Chester:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WALTON-LE-DALE ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of the urban district of Walton-le-Dale, in the County Palatine of Lancaster:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

WELLINGTON (SOMERSET) ELECTRI CITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1926.
Special Order in respect of the urban district of Wellington, in the County of Somerset:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
ROWLEY REGIS AND BLACKHEATH GAS ORDER, 1926.
MIDFILTR ST GAS ORDER, 1926.
WEST BROMWICH GAS ORDER, 1926.
ILKESTON GAS ORDER, 1926.
Special Orders Committee to meet on Thursday next.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Message from the Commons that they concur in the Resolution of this House communicated to them on the 16th instant, That it is desirable that a Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to examine and report on any Bill or matter referred to them specifically by either House of Parliament, and to consider with a view to reporting if necessary thereon any matter relating to Indian Affairs brought to the notice of the Committee by the Secretary of State for India.