Sitting of 24 November 1925

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Leith Harbour and Docks Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered: to be read the Third time To-morrow.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Colonel Sir ARTHUR HOLBROOK: I beg to present a petition from the Andover Board of Guardians against the Rating and Valuation Bill.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    BUY BRITISH GOODS CAMPAIGN.
    Mr. BENNETTasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to give effect to the Buy British Goods Campaign?
    Mr. CAMPBELLasked the President of the Board of Trade what have been the concrete results of the Ministerial appeal to buy British goods?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): A large number of local authorities have expressed their intention of supporting the proposal to hold a British Shopping Week before Christmas, and I have heard that at Glasgow and Birmingham, among other places, a British Shopping Week will be held during the next three weeks. It is obviously impossible to state what the concrete results will be, but I have every reason to hope that a considerable impetus will be given to British trade.
    Colonel DAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether any notification
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    has been sent to Government Departments who are continually buying American and German goods?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes. I do not think the statement about habitually buying German and American goods is altogether accurate. At any rate, it is not accurate as regards the present Government since it came into office, because the Government Departments have been most strongly pressed on this question from time to time.
    Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, when the last contract was made for upholstering the benches of the House of Lords, foreign materials were used?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Would it not be better to have a census prepared as to the extent to which foreign goods are used?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the instruments used by the Post Office to stamp the words "Buy British Goods" on letters were manufactured abroad?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am aware of that, because no such instrument could be procured in this country.
    Colonel DAY: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that the switchboards supplied to the Post Office have been supplied from Germany?

    FOREIGN FIRMS (WORKS IN GREAT BRITAIN).
    Mr. BENNETTasked the President of the Board of Trade how many foreign firms have established works in this country since the beginning of July for the purpose of manufacturing articles protected by the reimposed McKenna Duties and the Safeguarding of Industries Act: and if he can give any indication of the numbers of persons to whom employment is being or will be given?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I presume my hon. Friend has in mind the reimposed McKenna Duties and the Lace and Silk Duties. I have seen newspaper reports regarding the establishment or proposed establishment in this country by foreign interests of silk and artificial silk under-

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    takings, and the opening of a new works by a foreign motor manufacturer, but the period since the passing of the Finance Act has obviously been too short for any such schemes to become effective, and I am not able to give the information asked for in the last part of the question.
    Mr. P. HARRIS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of manufacturers of garments have had to close down on account of these duties.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No. My information is exactly the opposite.

    OXALIC ACID.
    Mr. MacKENZIE LIVINGSTONEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether duty is still chargeable on oxalic acid imported into this country from foreign sources; and whether this commodity is being manufactured in this country?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I understand that two separate proposals for the manufacture of the product named are under examination, but so far as I know it is not at present being made here.
    Captain BENN: Is it not a fact that four years have elapsed, and the result desired has not been achieved?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The result achieved is that thousands of articles not formerly manufactured in this country are now manufactured.
    Mr. LIVINGSTONE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that I got the same answer a year age?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I told the hon. Member the truth on both occasions.

    BANKRUPTCY BILL.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed to introduce a new Bankruptcy Bill?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I hope that it will be possible to introduce a Bill next Session.

    DIRECTIONAL WIRELESS.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the President of the Board of Trade if a committee has been appointed to investigate the question of directional wireless; and, if so, when will their Report be issued?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: A Committee was appointed on the 8th July last to
    "advise the Board of Trade regarding the development in the United Kingdom of the service of wireless direction finding stations wireless beacons and similar aids to navigation, and the location and types of such stations to be maintained."
    The Committee, which consists of representatives of the Departments concerned and of the shipping industry, is a Standing Advisory Committee dealing with concrete cases, and its conclusions or reports would not ordinarily be published.

  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    REPARATION CLAIMS.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENNasked the President of the Board of Trade why a differentiation is made between compensation to the owners of vessels and the members of the crew in cases where the vessels were seized by the German Government on the outbreak of war?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The economic clauses of the Treaty of Versailles, which enable individuals to claim compensation from the German Government relate only to certain classes of damage to property, and the Mixed Arbitral Tribunals have repeatedly held that injury to the person, whether arising from internment or otherwise, will not support claims under these clauses. Payments in respect of such claims have been made in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission out of the funds provided by Parliament. Claims arising from acts committed by the German Government or German authorities between the 31st July, 1914, and the outbreak of the War, which include the claims by seamen referred to in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Pontefract on the 17th instant, are expressly provided for under the economic clauses of the Treaty, and have been submitted to an arbitrator appointed ad

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    hoc. Similar principles to those stated above regarding damage to property and injury to the person have been applied by such arbitrator in the assessment of these claims.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean, in short, that it is much easier to get compensation for loss of property than it is for seamen to get compensation for the damage they have suffered?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Had I given a short answer I could not have supplied the information for which the hon. and gallant Gentleman asked. The answer means that we are carrying out. as we are bound to do, the terms of the Treaty.
    Captain BENN: That means that the seamen come second to the owners of ships.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with payment by Germany of property rights and interest claims, a large sum has accrued, or will accrue, to the Treasury in connection with shipping losses and loss of shipping profits; what is the Government estimate of sums received under this head; and whether he is prepared to allocate from the receipts in question an additional sum from which further payments can be made to seamen whose claims for damage by enemy action have not yet been satisfactorily met?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): In certain cases the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal has awarded compensation under Article 297 (e) of the Treaty of Versailles to owners of ships detained by the German Government at the outbreak of war. These ships having been insured under the War Risks Insurance scheme, part of the awards received have accrued to His Majesty's Government, which participated to the extent of 80 per cent. in war risks insurance. No close estimate can yet be made of the amount of such receipts, but they will be in the neighbourhood of £500,000. Such receipts are payable to the Exchequer as Vote of Credit assets, and are not available for payments in respect of claims for damage by enemy action. Moreover, as has been
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    repeatedly stated, the amounts already allocated from the Exchequer to the latter claims must be regarded as final.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: Is it a fact that large sums have accrued to the Treasury in connection with shipping losses and loss of shipping profits, and that there is therefore a case for asking for further grants for people who have suffered from enemy damage?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am afraid that it is quite impossible again to go into the question of enemy damage.

    SEAMEN (HEALTH).
    Mr. B. SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will arrange for an annual report to be issued regarding the health of merchant seamen, giving a scientific analysis of diseases in the statistics published in the Return of the Shipping Casualties to and Deaths on Vessels Registered in the United Kingdom: give information as to the total number of men serving amongst whom the deaths occurred; and, in view of the apparent absence of medical advisers in the Department, will he consider whether the health of seamen is a responsibility which might with advantage be transferred to the Ministry of Health?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will consider whether the statistics for which the hon. Member now asks can be prepared, but I would call his attention to the replies given him on 3rd March last, of which I am sending him copies.
    Mr. SMITH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statistics now published as to the health of seamen afloat sailing under the British flag in no way reflect the actual conditions?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: On the 3rd March, when I answered the hon. Member last, I said that if he would send me particulars I would consider them.
    Mr. SMITH: I did.
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I will inquire further.

    NORTHERN LIGHTS COMMISSIONERS' VESSELS (LIFE-SAVING APPARATUS).
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the President of the Board of Trade if the life-saving appliances on the vessels of the Northern Lights Commissioners are surveyed by Board of Trade surveyors; if those vessels are exempt from carrying

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    lifeboats; and if it is intended to fit them with wireless installations?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The life-saving appliances on the tenders of the Northern Lights Commissioners are not regularly inspected by Board of Trade surveyors. The tenders are not specifically exempted from the life-saving appliances rules, and, while they do not comply exactly with those rules, they carry more boat accommodation than is required by the rules, although of a different character. The tenders, being under 1,600 tons gross, are not required to be fitted with wireless.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Is it not the fact that the vessels of Trinity House do carry life-boats and have wireless, and is it not desirable that, in the case of these vessels of the Northern Lights Commissioners, which have more exposed voyages, the life-saving appliances should be equally as good as those of the Trinity House vessels?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I could not answer the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question without notice. I think the practice of the Board of Trade under successive Governments has been that they have not seen any reason to interfere with the competence and powers of Trinity House and of the Commissioners.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to look into the question of the life-saving appliances in these vessels, and their inspection?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Of course, I paid the hon. Member the compliment of looking into it when he put down a question, and the answer T have just given him is the result of researches extending back for a number of years.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: You should go forward, and not backward.

    SHIPPING STRIKE, AUSTRALIA.
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the latest position in regard to labour in Australia and elsewhere due to the shipping strike; and whether he has received any estimate of the total losses incurred by British shipping companies owing to the strike?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have no information to add to the reports which
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    have appeared in the Press as to the position of the shipping strike in Australia and elsewhere. I have received no estimate of the total losses incurred by British shipping companies owing to the strike.

    COST OF LIVING (INDEX FIGURES).
    Mr. N. MACLEANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the present method of basing the cost of living on wholesale prices is reliable; and, if not, whether he will be prepared to consider the alteration of the method to basing the cost of living upon retail prices?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have boon asked to reply. The official statistics relating to changes in the cost of living are based on retail prices. The Board of Trade index number of wholesale prices is a different compilation. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a reprint from the "Ministry of Labour" Gazette for July, 1923, explanatory of the method of compiling the cost of living index number.
    Mr. MACLEAN: The question I asked is about the Board of Trade method of compiling the figures which the Parliamentary Secretary has admitted are based on wholesale prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The Ministry of Labour figures are based upon retail prices, but the Board of Trade figures are based on wholesale prices. I am asking if the President of the Board of Trade is satisfied that the method adopted by the Board of Trade in fixing the cost of living by the wholesale prices is satisfactory?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am satisfied that the Board of Trade figure based on the wholesale prices is as nearly accurate as any figure can be.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is there any intention of introducing a new method of estimating the cost of living?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That question was dealt with by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, who replied that the cost of living is necessarily based on the retail prices. But it is also very important that the wholesale prices should be dealt with (and they are dealt with by the Board of Trade) in comparison with the figures of

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    the "Economist," the "Times," the "Statist," and others. I think economists are generally agreed that the figures are as accurate as they can be.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: May I ask whether there would not be obvious advantages in having the retail and the wholesale prices made out by the same department?
    Mr. SPEAKER: We cannot argue that now.

    BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION.
    Mr. SCURRasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the sale of the Government shares in the British Dyestuffs Corporation to that company gave that company a free hand to make what arrangements they chose with the German combine, even though those arrangements involved the restriction of production in this country and the enhancement of prices, or whether it was made a condition of the sale that any such agreement should be published and should be subject to the approval of this House and that the obstacles in the way of the importation of foreign dyes should be continued if the agreement based on it was found to injure the dyeing industry?
    Mr. HARRISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, before disposing of Government shares in the British Dyestuffs Corporation, the House will have an opportunity to discuss the proposal and express its opinion thereon?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I would refer the hon. Members to the answers which I gave yesterday. I have consulted the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to whether any Papers could usefully be laid, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition. Before coining to a decision, the matter was very fully considered by the Committee of Civil Research and the Cabinet; but it would of course be contrary to all precedent to lay Papers with regard to these deliberations. The Treasury will, however, prepare a White Paper setting out the letter written to the company, the substance of which I gave in my answer yesterday, the reply of the company, and the reconstruction proposals which the company have submitted to the shareholders.
    Mr. HARRIS: Will there be any restriction on the profits of the new company and of the dividends paid to the shareholders; and, if not, will there be any relaxation in the regulations as to the importation of dyes from abroad?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. The company will be in exactly the same position in regard to its dividends as any other dyestuffs company or industry.
    Mr. HARRIS: Has this company not had the advantage of having Government money behind it?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No. It has hitherto had the considerable disadvantage of having to suffer from Government interference.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that this particular firm have had the advantage of Government money to pursue research work?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That would be a very incomplete and inaccurate statement of the facts.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Have the dye-users made any representations in connection with this question?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have received representations of one kind and another from a very large number of people. If the right hon. and gallant Member wants further information, he had better ask me a specific question.
    Mr. SCURR: Have any arrangements been made with the German combine?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No arrangements of any sort or kind.

    BREAD (COMPULSORY WRAPPING).
    Captain CROOKSHANKasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will invite the Food Council to consider whether the compulsory wrapping of bread would have any effect in the ultimate cost, to the consumer, of bread and, if so, what, and whether its universal introduction might, in practice, result in the abolition of night baking?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The Night Baking Committee of the Royal Commission on Food Prices reported last April that if the wrapping of bread became

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    universal, the cost must ultimately be reflected in the price of the loaf, but I am unable to give an estimate of the increase in price, or to anticipate what, if any, effect it might have on night baking.

  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.

    COMMITTEE INQUIRIES.
    Mr. W. HIRSTasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the total ascertained cost to date of inquiries which have been, or are being, conducted under the Government's Safeguarding of Industry proposals; what is the total estimated cost of such inquiries for the financial year 1925–26; and whether it will be necessary to submit Supplementary Estimates?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The total ascertained cost to date, chargeable to Board of Trade Votes, of inquiries under the Safeguarding of Industry proposals, is £737. The total cost of such inquiries for the financial year 1925–26 cannot be estimated, since the number and nature of the committees which may be set up before the close of the year cannot be foreseen; but it is not expected that they will necessitate the submission of a Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any complaints as to the constitution of the committees set up to consider applications for the imposition of duties in connection with the Government's safeguarding of industry proposals; whether any of the persons appointed for this purpose are known to hold definite views in favour of the Government's policy; and whether the Government has laid down any definite procedure to be fallowed in the selection of the personnel of such committees?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the remainder of the question, the policy of the Government is to safeguard such industries as are shown by a full and impartial inquiry to have a good case, and the committees are constituted of such persons as appear to me to be suited to conduct such inquiry. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing the
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    thanks of the Government to the committees for the thorough manner in which they have conducted these inquiries. No more definite procedure has been laid down than is indicated in Section III of the White Paper.
    Captain BENN: On what principle is the right hon. Gentleman proceeding in excluding witnesses from the right of giving evidence before these committees?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have not proceeded on any principle, because the hearing or not hearing of witnesses is left, very wisely, to the discretion of these impartial committees. They have admitted such evidence as they considered relevant, and excluded that which they considered irrelevant.
    Captain BENN: Does that mean that no Regulations have been laid down by the right hon. Gentleman's Department for their guidance as to the exclusion of witnesses?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: None other than the general indication which I gave in Debate in this House.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is possible to get an impartial inquiry by a committee which includes persons who have expressed themselves in favour of safeguarding schemes?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think that that is a most improper suggestion to make. I have not concerned myself with the political opinion of any single person on a committee, and the committees have included, not only people who may be Protectionist in their policy, but members attached to the hon. Gentleman's own party.
    Mr. ALEXANDER: May I ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]— does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that inquiries of this kind, having so important an effect upon the whole community, ought to be of a judicial character?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think they are of a judicial character, but if by that the hon. Member means that no one should take part in them who may ever have expressed any opinion, one way or another, on a fiscal matter, he might

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    find it very difficult even to set up one committee.
    Mr. MACKINDERasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will deposit in the Library a copy of the evidence given during the proceedings of the inquiries under the Safeguarding of Industries applications?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: For reasons of economy, the evidence given at these inquiries is not printed but is only in typescript, and only sufficient copies have been made hitherto for the use of the parties appearing before the committees and the members of the committees. The evidence is usually very voluminous, and I doubt if any very useful purpose would be served by taking the course proposed.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how Members of this House can make up their minds on such a very important subject without seeing the evidence?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Yes, Sir; in the way in which they did under the previous Safeguarding of Industries Act and in the most recent cases—on the Report of the Committee.
    Mr. MACKINDER: May I put the question again? I am asking for the Reports of the Committee, and, if the President of the Board of Trade is refusing the Reports of the Committees, how can—
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, I am not.
    Mr. MACKINDER:—when I speak of the Reports, I mean the evidence—how is it possible for the House to make up its mind without getting the evidence?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I propose to follow the precedent which has been followed under the previous Acts, and publish the Reports of the Committees. That was done under the Safeguarding of Industries Act of the Coalition Government, and I do not see any reason to alter it.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Is it not a fact that this House must make up its mind upon evidence, and, if we are not to have the evidence, how can we make up our minds?

    FINANCE BILL.
    Sir W. de FRECEasked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce any fresh legislation in the present Session; and, if so, what?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is proposed to introduce and pass into law before the adjournment a Finance Bill to give effect to any recommendation of the Committees appointed under the Safeguarding of Industries procedure. If time permit, other small Bills will be taken.
    Captain BENN: Is it intended to wait until all the Committees have reported before introducing; the Finance Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid that I must ask for notice of that question. It is quite obvious that by the time the Bill is introduced there could only be included those on which the Committees have reported.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Can this House have the evidence which has been submitted to the Committees before we consider the Bill?
    Mr. STEPHEN: Is the Prime Minister able to state that there is going to be any legislation with regard to the excessive rents that people are paying for hovels in Scotland?

  RUSSIA.

    TRADE FACILITIES.
    Mr. TAYLORasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that the Russian commissariat for foreign trade has recently ratified a number of large import agreements with the German firm of Krupp, Sask, Linz and Fletter, for the supply of agricultural implements, and that these firms are being assisted by German banks to grant credits for a period of three harvests: and whether, in view of the depressed condition of the agricultural machine industry in Great Britain, he is now prepared to extend the Trade Facilities Act to Anglo-Russian trade: 57. the Chancellor of the Exchequer (2) if the Trade Facilities Committee is now prepared to consider applications under the Trade Facilities Acts for financing the development of

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    Anglo-Russian trade; and whether he can state the total sum at present available under the Trade Facilities Act?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Ronald McNeill): I am informed that a credit has been arranged between a group of German banks, in conjunction with certain German industrial concerns and the Russian State Bank, for the purpose indicated by the hon. Member, but I have no knowledge of the special import agreements to which be refers. As regards applications for guarantees by the Soviet Government and its agencies, I would refer to the reply given by my predecessor to the hon. and gallant Member for the Chertsey Division (Sir P. Richardson) on the 12th May last. In reply to the last part of Question No. 57, the Treasury have up to date undertaken to give guarantees to a total of £58,827,241, against the statutory maximum of £70,000,000.
    Mr. TAYLOR: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the money to finance these transactions has not been found in the London money market?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British Government assisted the German Government to secure a loan in this country, and that German firms, through the German Government, are giving credit facilities to Russia; and does he not think it would be just as well to do it direct as to give, facilities indirectly through other people?
    Mr. TAYLOR rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: We have only reached Question No. 11 out of a total of more than 100.

    OIL FIELDS (BRITISH CAPITAL).
    Mr. BASIL PETOasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the Anglo-Russian Trading Agreement of 1921 is being used to enable the produce of Russian oilfields in the Baku and Grozni districts to be sold in this country through the Russian Oil Produce, Limited, and that, approximately, £75,000,000 sterling of British capital invested in the development of these Russian oilfields was confiscated by the Soviet Government, the Government will appoint a Committee to examine and
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    amend the Anglo-Russian Trading Agreement in order to limit the facilities under it to goods that are not produced from confiscated British property?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government cannot modify the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement without the concurrence of the other party to that agreement.
    Mr. PETO: Does not the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement, in effect, operate to enable the produce of British capital stolen by the Soviet Government to be merchanted in this country?
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Does the right hon. Gentleman think the British Government should be a party in any form of agreement which is used for the distribution in this country of stolen property?
    Mr. THURTLE: On a point of Order. Are hon. Members in order in casting reflections upon a friendly Power?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I understood that the hon. Member was attacking an agreement which had been approved by this House some time ago.

    TRADE AGREEMENT.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, seeing that, nothwith-standing the terms of the Anglo-Russian Trade Agreement, British companies are barred from all trading in Russia while Russian trading organisations are given a free hand in establishing themselves in this country to push the disposal of Russian products, he will state what action will be taken to put a stop to this one-sided operation of the Agreement?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: What my hon. and gallant Friend desires could only be achieved by negotiating a new Agreement, and on that point I would refer him to the answer which I have to-day given to the hon. Member for Barnstaple, and to the answer given by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. Member for Brightside on the 27th May.
    Sir F. HALL: Is not this such a one-sided Agreement that Russia can have all the advantages, and we have to put up with all the disadvantages?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is arguing the matter.

    EMPIRE DEVELOPMENT.
    Sir WALTER de FRECEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to spend, within the current financial year, any of the £1,000,000 sterling allotted, in accordance with the recommendation of the Imperial Economic Committee, for the stimulation of Empire produce; and, if so, how?
    Lieut.-Colonel A. McDONNELLasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the urgency of an active policy of Empore development in order to provide employment at home and openings for settlers overseas, he will inform the House as to what action he proposes to take on the first Report of the Imperial Economic Committee?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I would refer my hon. Friends to the answer given by the Prime Minister yesterday to the hon. Members for Devizes (Mr. Hurd) and Ashford (Major Steel).
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Can the right hon. Gentleman now indicate to the House when the Government's recommendations will be given, as the result of the important Committee which has now been sitting for four months?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I cannot add anything to the answer of the Prime Minister yesterday, when he said that as soon as he was in a position to do so he would make a statement.

    SECURITIES (OFFERS TO SELL).
    Mr. SMITHERSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certain firms are circularising the public and sending round the country experienced salesmen to sell securities which have no ascertainable value; and will he bring the matter be-bore the Departmental Committee now sitting to consider the amending of the Companies' Act with a view to protecting unsuspecting persons who are parting with their money for worthless securities
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    or for securities at a price considerably over their market value?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: My attention has been drawn to statements in the Press relating to this matter. If the facts are as stated in the warnings published in the Press, investors would be well advised to exercise extreme caution. Persons invited to purchase these shares will no doubt consider how far the standing of the firms concerned and the method adopted for offering the shares are calculated to inspire confidence in the value of the shares. I will bring my hon. Friend's question to the notice of the Departmental Committee, who have already had some evidence before them bearing on the subject.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite the inquiry, and consider what immediate steps can betaken to warn people of the methods of these persons?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: With regard to expediting the inquiry, it is being conducted by very busy and very able people, and I would rather go a little more slowly, and get a considered judgment from the ablest and most experienced people than that there should be a hurried Report.
    Mr. SMITHERS: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the meantime the public are being approached in a questionable way?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I rather hoped that the answer I have given would be as good a warning to the public as anything that could be done.

    BLAST FURNACES.
    Mr. FORRESTasked the President of the Board of Trade the output of blast furnaces in America, France, Belgium, Germany, and this country in 1924 and 1913?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: As the answer involves a table of figures, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The following statement gives the quantity of pig iron produced in the

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    countries in question during the years 1913 and 1924:

    Country.

    Pig Iron produced.

    In 1913.

    In 1924 (provisional figures).

    Tons (of 2,240 lbs.)

    Tons (of 2,240 lbs.)

    United States

    30,906,000

    31,107,000

    France

    5,126,000

    4,599,000

    Alsace-Lorraine

    3,801,000

    2,936,000

    Saar District

    1,349,000

    1,326,000

    Germany (excluding Luxemburg).

    11,344,000

    7,675,000

    Belgium

    2,446,000

    2,764,000

    Great Britain

    10,260,000

    7,319,000

  SCOTLAND.

    HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (HOUSING).
    Mr. LIVINGSTONEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether in view of the fact that the people of the Highlands and Islands generally are excluded from the benefits of the recent Housing Acts and are in urgent need of favourable facilities for the improvement of their housing conditions, he will take steps to set up a carefully-chosen Committee to inquire into this matter and report their recommendations to this House?
    The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): I cannot admit the first contention of the hon. Member and therefore do not see my way to agree to the suggestion in the latter part of the question. I am writing him personally on the matter and I should be pleased to discuss it with him.

    ALLOTMENTS.
    Captain BENNasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can make any statement as to the policy of the Government in respect of assistance to Scottish allotment holders?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not yet in a position to add anything to my reply to the question put by the hon. and gallant Member on the 28th July, except that I am prepared to consider the question of the application to Scotland of the main provisions of the Allotments Act recently passed, if such consideration is desired by
    1134
    the allotment holders and local authorities.
    Captain BENN: In framing the Estimates for next year will not the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the determination of Parliament that certain sums of money should be allotted to Scottish allotments?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say he is not going tr. spend any of the £4,000 per annum contemplated under the previous Act?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes, that is materially so.

    SMALL HARBOURS (SURVEY).
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIRasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has instituted a survey of small harbours round the coast; and, if so, whether he will communicate to this House any plans which he may have formed for their repair and improvement?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have not instituted any such survey as is suggested in the question. In the circumstances the point referred to in the second part of the question does not arise.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Was it not stated by the right hon. Gentleman's Department that he was having this inspection made, and personally by himself, and that he was sending an inspector round to make a regular inspection of these harbours?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I certainly will have inquiry made into the ordinary condition of certain main piers and the main appointments but not of the general appointments.

    AGRICULTURAL CONFERENCE.
    Sir A. SINCLAIRasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is yet in a position to announce the decision of His Majesty's Government with regard to the recommendations of the Scottish Agricultural Conference?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not at present in a position to make an announcement on this subject, but I hope to be able to make a statement respecting certain of

    1135
    the matters dealt with in the Report on the completion of discussions which are in progress.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the first two of these recommendations were with regard to drainage and lime, and that it is essential to get a decision from the Government on this point in time to put in an application?

    DEER FORESTS.
    Mr. LIVINGSTONEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether he intends to put into effect the recommendations of the last Deer Forest Commission; and, if so, when?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: This subject is receiving my consideration in relation to other questions of agricultural policy, but I am not at present prepared to make a statement with regard to the prospects of legislation which would be necessary to give effect to the main proposals of the Committee. Under the Agricultural Returns Act recently passed the Board of Agriculture propose to take steps to obtain returns of stock in respect of land used as a deer forest.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement before the close of the Session?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not able to make a definite promise, but I hope to do so.

    LAND COURT REPORT (APPENDIX).
    Sir R. HAMILTONasked the Secretary for Scotland when the Appendix to the Report of the Land Court for 1024 will be available; what the cost of the volume will be to the public; how many copies of the Appendix to the 1923 Report wore sold; and whether he is aware that the present system of cyclostyling the Appendix results in an unwieldly volume that is inconvenient for use by the Court and priced at a figure beyond the means of the ordinary public?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: It is hoped that the Appendix to the Report of the Land Court for 1924 will be available in the first week of next month. The price of the Appendix will be 30s. Sixteen copies of the Appendix to the 1923 Report were sold. I am aware that the cyclostyled
    1136
    Appendix is somewhat larger than a corresponding printed volume would be, but I do not consider that any inconvenience thereby caused is such as to warrant the imposition on the taxpayer of the considerable additional cost of printing the volume, for which there is a very small public demand.
    Sir R. HAMILTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is only a very small public demand for a volume costing 30s., and is it not false economy that the information contained in this Appendix should be kept from the people who are most concerned with it?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is argument.

    JUVENILE UNEMPLOYMENT.
    Mr. WESTWOODasked the Secretary for Scotland if the Committee to inquire into the question of Juvenile Unemployment and its co-relation to education has yet been set up for Scotland: and, if so, will he state the terms of reference and the names of the Committee?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The answer is in the affirmative. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the announcement.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great dissatisfaction in Scotland with the composition of this Committee, and will he state the names of the Committee in order that the House may know the bias on which the Committee has been formed?
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a public announcement has appeared in the Press, and ought not an answer to be given here without his merely saying that he is going to send me a copy? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave dissatisfaction because of the unrepresentative character of the Committee, and that there is not a representative of the educational administrators nor of those interested in juvenile employment?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am not aware of general dissatisfaction. As both hon. Members have stated, this has been made public in the Press, and there does not appear to be any necessity for announcing it to-day, although I am perfectly willing to do so.
    Mr. WESTWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my question was

    1137
    put on the Order Paper before any public announcement was made in the Press? Will the right hon. Gentleman give the names?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The names have appeared in the Press. The Chairman of the Committee is the Right Hon. Lord Salvesen, and the Committee consists of Mr. R. S. Allan, LL.D., Professor T. Hudson Beare, Mrs. Charles Douglas, of Auchlochan, Mr. James Elder, of Athelstone Ford, Mains, Mr. William Lorimer, J. P., general secretary of the Society of Associated Blacksmiths and Ironworkers, and Mr. D. J. Macdonald, of Dundee.

    HOUSING (SUBSIDY AND WARES).
    Mr. WILLIAM ADAMSONasked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scottish Board of Health has come to any new decision regarding the construction of houses in Scotland in steel or other alternative method; whether any pressure is to be brought to bear on Scottish local authorities to undertake such construction in order to participate in the special additional subsidy recently announced by the Prime Minister in Scotland; and, if so, what policy is to be adopted in the regulation of wages for the operatives concerned?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: In reply to the first part of the question, I take it that my right hon. Friend is referring to the proposals outlined by the Prime Minister on 1st October and set out in the circular of 3rd October which the Scottish Board of Health addressed to all local authorities in Scotland regarding the allowance of an additional subsidy of £40 per house, subject to conditions detailed in the circular. The Board have now issued to local authorities a list of firms who have been approved for the purposes of that circular, and have invited local authorities to submit by 14th December their proposals for participation in the subsidy. In reply to the second part of the question, I am most anxious that local authorities should take advantage of the offer of the additional subsidy and shall do everything I can to persuade them to do so. With regard to the third part, in order to qualify for subsidy, contracts must contain the Fair Wages Clause as provided in Government contracts. The Government has already intimated its
    1138
    acceptance of the Bradbury Committee's Report on this subject.
    Mr. ADAMSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say who was included in the list?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The list will, I think, be in the public Press. There are four firms whose names have been submitted to the local authority.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the names.
    Mr. ADAMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the names of the four firms?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Corolite Construction, Limited, Cowie, Sons, Limited, James Jones and Sons, and G. and J. Weir, Limited.
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Prime Minister, if he has considered the protest of the National Building and Engineering Federation against the promise recently given of an increased subsidy to Scotland on houses of a particular construction; whether an opportunity of Parliamentary discussion will be afforded this Session of the financial and other consequences of this increased subsidy; if it is proposed that the increased subsidy shall under any circumstances apply to other forms of house construction; and, if not, whether consideration has been given to the effect that this increased subsidy will have on the general building industry?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have been asked to reply to this question. The protest referred to has been considered. An opportunity for Parliamentary discussion will be given when the Vote of the Scottish Board of Health is presented. The increased subsidy was proposed for houses of any alternative construction which did not require more than 10 per cent. of skilled building trade labour; and the houses now approved by the Scottish Board of Health are of various types including concrete, timber and "steel." This increased subsidy is for a limited number of houses forming only a small fraction of the Scottish needs, and I am quite unable to see that it will have any prejudicial effect on the general building industry.
    Mr. KENNEDY: Has the Prime Minister considered the proprietry of

    1139
    these payments being made without Parliamentary approval?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I do not think that question arises.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman stop this practice of making impromptu speeches in which he commits the House of Commons to definite policies without us knowing anything about them?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    SEDITIOUS PROPAGANDA.
    Mr. FORRESTasked the Secretary of State for War if there has been further evidence of attempts to promote dissatisfaction in the Army?
    Mr. SCURRasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has any evidence of a growth of Communist opinions among members of His Majesty's Army?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR: (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): It would not be proper for me to make any statement on these matters while the trial of certain persons is proceeding at the Central Criminal Court.
    Mr. BECKETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the report on Pay in the Army, which has created extreme discontent?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: That has nothing to do with the question on the Paper.

    CHELSEA HOSPITAL PENSIONS.
    Brigadier-General BROOKEasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that decisions of the Commissioners of the Chelsea Hospital, with respect to soldiers' pensions, do not carry with them any right of appeal as in the case of the decisions of the Ministry of Pensions; what reason there is for such differentiation; what are the grounds upon which Governments have decided that no such appeal is necessary; and whether he will consider the desirability of giving to soldiers the same rights as are enjoyed by men who served in the Great War?
    Colonel PERKINSasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in respect of soldiers detained in mental homes, for whose condition the authorities accept no responsibility, there is no appeal whatever against the decision of the military authorities that their condition is not attributable to war service; and why there is a right of appeal in regard to similar cases coming under the Ministry of Pensions but no right of appeal in cases dealt with by the War Office?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am aware that there is no right of appeal against the decisions of the Chelsea Commissioners. The Chelsea Commissioners are not subject to the control of any Government Department in their administration of the pension regulations; they are, in fact, an independent body who adjudicate upon the soldier's claim.

    ASSISTANT MILITARY ATTACHE, WASHINGTON.
    Captain CROOKSHANKasked the Secretary of State for War whether it-has been decided to appoint an Assistant Military Attaché at Washington?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The answer is in the affirmative.

    PRISONS AND DETENTION BARRACKS.
    Mr. CECIL WILSONasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in the year 1923–24 the net cost per prisoner per day in military prisons and detention barracks was 8s. 11d., and that of this sum approximately 6s. 1d. went to the staff, 2s. 1d. to standing charges, and 9d. to prisoners' maintenance; and whether he can state the reason for the disparity of these amounts?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The figures referred to are presumably those on page 110 of the Army Account for 1923–24. The cost per brad of prisoners in 1923–24 is greater than in 1922–23 because the number of prisoners is fortunately less.

    ROYAL SMALL ARMS FACTORIES (DISCHARGED WORKERS).
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Secretary of State for War whether he

    1141
    is aware that 68 discharged workers from the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield and Waltham Abbey are receiving relief from the Edmonton Board of Guardians to the amount of approximately £70 per week; that all of these workers have had over 15 years' Government service and 15 of them over 40 years' service; and whether he is prepared to make any special provision for these old employés in order that they may not have to seek further Poor Law relief?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King): I regret to hear of the distress existing among workers discharged from the Royal Small Arms Factories at Waltham and Enfield, but it is not possible for me to make any payments to them beyond those to which they are entitled under the conditions of their service, and which they have already received.
    Mr. MORRISON: Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it very unfair that a poor district should be saddled with a cost of £70 a week to maintain people some of whom have given 40 years' service to the Government?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Why is it that the Government set such a bad example to private employers in these matters?

    TERRITORIAL ARMY (RECRUITING).
    Colonel PERKINSasked the Secretary of State for War if he can give any figures regarding the recruiting for the Territorial Army in each of the preceding 12 months; and whether he is satisfied with the progress made?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing the number of recruits who have enlisted in the Territorial Army during each of the preceding 12 months. The progress is fairly satisfactory.
    The statement is as follows:

    1924.

    November

    …

    …

    …

    1,653

    December

    …

    …

    …

    1,596

    1925.

    January

    …

    …

    …

    1,898

    February

    …

    …

    …

    3,036

    March

    …

    …

    …

    4,253

    April

    …

    …

    …

    4,447

    May

    …

    …

    …

    6,241

    June

    …

    …

    …

    5,147

    July

    …

    …

    …

    4,128

    August

    …

    …

    …

    1,266

    September

    …

    …

    …

    1.378

    October

    …

    …

    …

    1,704

  KADAVER FACTORIES.

    STATEMENT BY SECRETARY FOR WAR.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War if, in view of the feeling aroused in Germany by the recrudescence of the rumours of the so-called corpse conversion factory behind the German lines in the late War, he can give any information as to the source of the original rumour and the extent to which it was accepted by the War Office at the time?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: At this distance of time I do not think that the source of the original rumour can be traced with any certainty. The statement that the Germans had set up a factory for the conversion of dead bodies first appeared on the 10th April, 1917, in the "Lokalanzeiger," published in Berlin, and in the "Independance Beige" and "La Belgique," two Belgian newspapers published in France and Holland. The statements were reproduced in the Press here, with the comment that it was the first German admission concerning the way in which the Germans used their dead bodies.
    Questions were asked in the House of Commons on the 30th April, 1917, and the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs replied on behalf of the Government that he had then no information beyond that contained in the extract from the German Press. But shortly afterwards a German Army Order containing instructions for the delivery of dead bodies to the establishments described in the "Lokalanzeiger" was captured in France, and forwarded to the War Office, who, after careful consideration, permitted it to be published.
    The terms of this Order were such that, taken in conjunction with the articles in the "Lokalanzeiger" and in the two

    1143
    Belgian papers and the previously existing rumours, it appeared to the War Office to afford corroborative evidence of the story. Evidence that the word "Kadaver" was used to mean human bodies, and not only carcases of animals, was found in German dictionaries and German anatomical and other works, and the German assertion that the story was disposed of by reference to the meaning of the word "Kadaver" was not accepted. On the information before them at the time, the War Office appear to have seen no reason to disbelieve the truth of the story.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentle man for his very full answer. Does he not think it desirable now that the War Office should finally disavow the story and their present belief in it?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I cannot believe any public interest is served by further questions on this story. I have given the House the fullest information that is in my possession in the hope that the hon. Members will be satisfied with what I have said, [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable, even now, to finally admit the inaccuracy of the original story in view of Locarno and other things?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is not a question of whether it was accurate or inaccurate. What I was concerned with was the information upon which the War Office acted at the time. Of course, the fact that there has been no corroboration since necessarily alters the complexion of the case, but I was dealing with the information in the possession of the authorities at the time.

    LAND FORCES (GREAT POWERS).
    Major GLYNasked the Secretary of State for War what is the present strength of the regular and subsidiary land forces, each separately, of the following countries: the United States of America, France, Italy, Japan, Russia, Poland, and the British Empire?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am having the figures prepared and, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.

    SOUTH WALES COALFIELD (OUTPUT AND SUBSIDY).
    Mr. HARTSHORNasked the Secretary for Mines if he could say what quantity of coal was produced at a profit in the South Wales coalfield during the months of August, September, and October, 1925. respectively; and the amount of subsidy paid in respect of that output?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane-Fox): I regret that this information is not available. On average there were debit balances of 5s. 4¾d. and 3s. 9½d. in South Wales in August and September, respectively, before crediting subvention. After crediting subvention the debit balances were 2s. 5id. and 1s. 0¼d., respectively.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: May I ask why this information is not available? Is not the right hon. Gentleman's Department obtaining from each colliery company this actual information. Why cannot we get the information?
    Colonel LANE-FOX: I do not say that the information is not obtainable, but I have not got it now. The money is being paid to bridge the gap between two different scales of wages in the collieries. The point whether the collieries are making a profit or loss does not come into the matter.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: Is it not a fact that in respect of every individual colliery company a return is made to the hon. Member's Department, and that this information can be supplied it he cares to do so. It is very important that we should have this information?
    Colonel LANE-FOX: I will certainly inquire whether much labour will be involved in obtaining it, but can only repeat that I have not got this information now.
    Mr. HARTSHORN: If I repeat the question next week, will the hon. and gallant Member be able to get it?
    Colonel LANE-FOX: I will inquire, and see what can be done.

    TRADE UNION ACT (PEACEFUL PICKETING).
    Mr. PENNYasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the intimidation frequently resorted to in industrial disputes to restrain people willing and wishful to work, he will consider the advisability of amending the Trade Union Act in regard to peaceful picketing?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 18th November in reply to a. question by my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet.
    Mr. PENNY: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that the sooner this question is tackled the sooner we shall have peaceful industrial relations?
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the Prime Minister aware that in the dispute in the book trade which at present obtains, the offices of the newspapers in this country, which have nothing to do with the dispute, are picketed to prevent newsvendors from getting their supplies?

    ROAD FUND.
    Mr. GEOFFREY PETOasked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet Committee on Economy will consider the advisability of handing over the Road Fund to the local authorities in direct relief of the rates incurred for maintenance and improvement of the roads and of so distributing the other duties of the Ministry of Transport as to enable this Department to be closed?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The Government intend to examine the question of the Road Fund in all its aspects and with due regard to the various interests affected, among which the responsibilities of the local authorities play so important a part.
    Mr. PETO: Can the Prime Minister tell us whether the Cabinet Committee on Economy are considering the question of reducing the rates as well as reducing the taxes?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think that question comes within our competence.
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now give an assurance that no part of the Road Fund will be diverted permanently or temporarily to purposes other than those for which the fund was established?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday on this subject to questions by the hon. Members for Govan and Chistlehurst.

    WAR (GENERAL ELECTION).
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Prime Minister if the Government is prepared to recommend to Parliament that this country should not again be committed to war without the approval of a General Election?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir.
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the Prime Minister aware of the lead given to him in this matter by the leader of the Conservative party in Canada?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have not noticed that, but I think that Canada is in a very different position from us.

    PENSIONS AND UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (ADMINISTRATION).
    Mr. T. KENNEDYasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the increasing extent to which the administration of such Measures as the War Pensions Acts and the Unemployment Insurance Acts is regulated by instructions and regulations issued to the administrative bodies concerned, and that these instructions and regulations are not made public or communicated to those principally concerned; and whether he will consider the advisability, in the public interest, of publishing these instructions and regulations or, alternatively, of circulating them to Members of this House as they are issued?
    Mr. McNEILL: My information is that the instructions and regulations which are issued to their local bodies by the Departments concerned with the Acts mentioned are available to Members of this House and largely, also, to the general public.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    CIVIL SERVANTS (APPEAL TO LAW COURTS).
    Mr. BRIANTasked the Prime Minister if the Government will introduce a Bill giving all servants of the Crown who have cause of action against their superior officers for dismissal or other grounds equal rights for appeal to the Law Courts?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As the hon. Member is doubtless aware, the whole subject of legal proceedings by and against the Crown is at present under investigation by a special Committee. I have no doubt that the particular aspect of the problem referred to in the question is receiving full consideration.

    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE OFFICERS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there has been an increase, and, if so, what increase, in the number of Customs and Excise officers, respectively, since 23rd July last; and, if there has been an increase, what additional expense has been incurred?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that, as he was informed in reply to a similar question on the 23rd July, it is not possible to apportion an increase of staff to Customs and Excise work respectively, as many officers are employed on both. The net increase in the staff of the Customs and Excise Department since the 23rd July up to the 31st October has been 140. The total staff is approximately 11,500. The net annual cost of this increase is approximately £23,000.

    DISTRICT VALUATION OFFICERS.
    Mr. PENNYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give the cost of the Government district valuation offices and staffs; and whether he will consider, in view of the urgent necessity for economy, discontinuing these services, seeing that the undeveloped land duty and increment value duty have been abolished?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The annual cost of the staff in district valuation offices is about £250,000. The cost of offices is a matter upon which I must refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works. Both staff and
    1148
    expenditure in the valuation office have been greatly curtailed and strictly limited to the requirements of the present duties of the office of which the most important is the valuation of landed property for purposes of Estate Duty. A full list of the functions of the office will be found in Command Paper 918 of 1920.

    INCOME TAX.
    Mr. BENNETTasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the introduction of legislation whereby British nationals living abroad shall be liable for Income and Super-tax?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Broadly speaking, the Income Tax extends to all income which arises in this country, even if it be enjoyed by a person residing abroad. Also, if a non-resident individual's income liable to British Income Tax exceeds £2,000 he is liable to British Super-tax. If I correctly understand my hon. Friend's suggestion to be that a nonresident British subject should be made liable to British Income Tax and Super-tax in respect of his total income, whether arising in this country or abroad, I am advised that this is a proposal which would be impracticable.
    Colonel DAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of making aliens who reside here pay a fair portion of taxation upon their incomes, that is if they are earning large sums here?

    EMPIRE SUGAR.
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that manufacturers of sugar products doing an export trade are precluded from using Empire sugar because they can only obtain the full drawback on the exported products by proving that no Empire sugar has been used therein; and will he take such measures as will help to increase the consumption of Empire-grown sugar for the export as well as for the home trade?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The rate of drawback payable on the exportation of British sugar products in the manufacture of which Empire sugar has been used, is lower than in the case of similar goods containing foreign sugar because a lower

    1149
    rate of duty has been paid thereon. As regards the second part of the question, perhaps my hon. Friend will let me know what measures he has in mind.

    BETTING TRANSACTIONS (TOTALISATORS).
    Mr. DIXEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the question of obtaining revenue for the country by the institution of the Government totalisators at racecourses in this country?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have noted my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. DIXEY: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer consider the question of having a Committee to look into this as it is important from the point of view of the country?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The question was the subject of inquiry by a Committee during the late Parliament.
    Mr. DIXEY: Before the right hon. Gentleman goes into the question of taking money from the Road Fund, will he fully exhaust the question of seeing whether he can derive money from this source?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I can assure my hon. Friend that—
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a hypothetical question.

    FIDUCIARY ISSUE.
    Sir FREDRIC WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the amount received in 1924–-25, and what is the estimated amount for 1925–26, from the dividend earning securities of the fiduciary issue?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Finance Accounts for 1924–25 (House of Commons, Paper 116), page 26. No marked change is expected in the current year.
    Sir F. WISE: Is the fiduciary issue invested in British Government securities?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I must have notice of that question.

    INTER-ALLIED DEBTS AND DISARMAMENT.
    Captain BENNasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the matter of debt negotiations with France and Italy, he has raised or intends to raise the question of disarmament?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It is doubtful whether the objects, which I desire as much as the hon. and gallant Member, can be assisted in the way he suggests.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this is a question which might have great weight in discussing the question of our debts?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that it is a matter which might easily complicate the discussions which are now proceeding. In any case, the question would not fall within the scope of purely financial negotiations, but would be connected with discussions set on foot by the Foreign Office.
    Captain BENN: Is there no co-operation between the Foreign Office and the Treasury in a matter of this kind?
    Mr. ALBERY: Is it not quite outside the province of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to answer questions connected with disarmament and the Foreign Office?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I notice that the right hon. Gentleman has been careful not to answer.

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.
    Sir FRANK SANDERSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in relation to all Government contracts, he will provide for the publication of the names and accepted prices of the successful contractors in the same way as was done during the War?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: As a general rule, the names of successful tenderers for Government contracts over £500 are already published, but I am advised that publication of contract prices would be against the public interest. My hon. Friend is, I think, under a misapprehension in stating that prices were published during the War.
    Sir F. SANDERSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is consider-

    1151
    able dissatisfaction felt, in some quarters at any rate, due to the feeling that undue influence hag been brought to bear in many instances in relation to various contracts in favour of one firm as against another.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I could not hear my hon. Friend very well, but, if he has any evidence tending to show that undue influence of any kind has operated in the placing of any contract, if he will bring the matter to my notice it shall be inquired into.
    Sir F. DONALDSON: I will do so.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the publishing of the list of contracts would be for the good of the country?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It was the purpose of my answer to explain to the House that the settled opinion of the Government, as I imagine, of every Government for many years, has been that the public interest would not be served by the full disclosure of these contract prices. I shall be ready to discuss the matter when occasion arises, if so desired.

    COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLES (REBATE).
    Mr. JACOBasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the process adopted by His Majesty's Customs in checking claims for rebate on motor vehicles used for commercial purposes; whether cars and parts have identification marks attached to them on landing which are subject to subsequent examination by His Majesty's officers in the completed vehicle; and what is the cost to His Majesty's Government of the maintenance of the staff necessary to mark imports and examine claims for rebate in respect of these articles?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The process adopted by the Customs and Excise Department in checking claims for rebate on motor vehicles used for exempt purposes consists of verification that duty has been paid on the vehicle or on the parts contained in it, and that the vehicle has been, and is being, exclusively used for purposes which entitle it to an exemption from duty. The answer to the
    1152
    second part of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part of the question, the work of examining claims for rebate is included in the general duties of the staff of the Customs and Excise Department, and accordingly its cost cannot be stated separately.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind how immensely these charges of the Customs and Inland Revenue would be simplified if these rebates were abolished altogether, and commercial powers placed on the same level as motor cars?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: That is a matter which has often been discussed in the House, and must remain continually under the consideration of those responsible for advising on our financial policy.
    Mr. JACOBasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether import duty on motor cars and motor parts collected by His Majesty's Customs on the landing of goods is subsequently returned by way of rebate if the motor car is used as a commercial vehicle exempt from motor duty: and whether he can state the number of claims for payment of rebate which have been made in the five financial years ending 31st March, 1925, and the first nine months of the current year, and the amount of rebate so claimed?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Under Section 13 (4) of the Finance Act, 1915, as re-enacted by Section 3 (2) of the Finance Act, 1925, if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that any motor car or motor car part, on which duty was paid on importation, has been and is being exclusively used for purposes which entitle it to exemption from duty, the duty paid on importation is repaid. I regret that information is not available as to the number of claims which have been made for payment of rebate, but, with my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL. REPORT a statement of the amounts paid by way of rebate in respect of motor cars, motor cycles and parts thereof in the periods specified in the question.
    Following is the statement promised:
    Statement showing the amount of rebate paid on motor cars, motor cycles, and parts thereof, during each of the financial years 1920–21 to 1924–25, and in

    1153
    the nine months 1st January to 30th September, 1925:

    Year.

    Rebate. £

    1920–21

    …

    306,297

    1921–22

    …

    468,928

    *1922–23

    …

    222,735

    1923–24

    …

    43,599

    1994–25

    …

    148,383

    1925 (1st January-30th September)

    …

    54,133

    * From 1922–23 the figures relate to Great Britain and Northern Ireland only.

    MALTING BARLEY (IMPORT DUTY).
    Mr. CHRISTIEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now cause to be published the Report of the Treasury Committee which considered the question of the best means of levying a Customs duty on imported malting barley?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The Committee, which sat in 1923, had no concern with policy; it was required to report only on the machinery of a possible Customs duty on imported malted barley. I see considerable objection to publishing a confidential Report of this character and no public advantage in doing so.
    Mr. CHRISTIE: May we know whether the right hon. Gentleman approves of the findings of the Committee, and whether he will give force to them?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not called upon to express approval or disapproval of the findings of any Committee, except as part of any decisions on policy which have, been taken by the Government as a whole.

    EAST AFRICA (TRANSPORT LOAN).
    Mr. HAYESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state which transport schemes recommended by the East Africa Commission have received the approval of the Treasury and will be included in the list covered by the loan for £10,000,000?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Amery): The only scheme as yet approved by the Treasury
    1154
    is the Tabora-Shinyanga section of the Mwanza extension in Tanganyika Territory. The schedule to the proposed Loan Bill has not yet been settled.

    TRADE FACILITIES ACT.
    Mr. THURTLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the heavy percentage of loss already incurred in connection with guarantees under the Trade Facilities Act, amounting to over 20 per cent., he will consider the advisability of making more stringent regulations in connection with future guarantees in order to reduce the loss to the national Exchequer?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I think the hon. Member must have misread the reply given to the hon. Member for Ilford on the 16th instant. The loss to date is ·02 per cent., which is a thousandth part of that suggested. All schemes are-examined by an independent committee and every care is taken to avoid losses.

    TURKISH PETROLEUM COMPANY.
    Sir F. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer who are the chief shareholders in the Turkish Petroleum Company; and what is their respective percentage of holdings to the total capital?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply. The present shareholders in the Turkish Petroleum Company, and their respective percentage of holdings, are as follow:

    Per cent.

    Anglo-Persian Oil Co., Ltd.

    47½

    Royal Dutch Shell group

    22½

    Compagnie Francaise de Petrole

    25

    Mr. C. S. Gulbenkian

    5

    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it proposed that part of this holding should be sold to an American company? Have the Government knowledge of that?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: That question does not arise.

    GERMAN REPARATION PAYMENTS.
    Mr. HARMSWORTHasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give figures showing the amount

    1155
    received on account of reparation from Germany; and the amount charged against this account in respect of the British Army of Occupation?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The total receipts of the British Empire from Germany from the Armistice up to the 31st October, 1925, are approximately £834 millions, of which approximately £49 millions is in respect of the British Army of Occupation (leaving a further claim of about £7 millions to be satisfied out of future payments under Article 21 of the Agreement of 14th January, 1925), approximately £83½ millions is in respect of other charges (e.g., reimbursement of Coal Advances under the Spa Agreement and Belgian War Debt), and approximately £26½ million is in respect of reparation. The share of the United Kingdom in this £26½ million is approximately £23 millions. In the above figures 20 gold marks is taken as equal to £1.
    Mr. MONTAGUE: Has that been paid in goods or money?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It has been paid already.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to tell us what business it is proposed to take on Thursday, and whether any arrangement has been reached with regard to sitting on Friday?
The PRIME MINISTER: The Government propose to allot Thursday to the discussion of a Motion of Censure relating to Unemployment, to be moved by the Opposition.
I think it would be in accord with the general wish of the House that we should not meet on Friday, but I hope that the House will allow us to secure the Third Reading of the Criminal Justice Bill and the Tithe Bill after 11 o'clock on Thursday. If treated as non-controversial, we might also get the Second Reading of the Education (Scotland) Bill.
Sir HENRY CRAIK: In spite of the very strong support of the Education (Scotland) Bill by hon. Members opposite would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that very large principles are involved in that Bill, and that there is great division of opinion among many people regarding it?
Captain BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what business it is proposed to take if the Motion to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule is carried this afternoon. Does he proper to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-morrow in order to get the two Third Readings mentioned?
The PRIME MINISTER: We shall proceed with the Rating and Valuation Bill to-day.
Captain BENN: Are you suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule tomorrow?
The PRIME MINISTER: I think so— yes.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 285: Noes, 126.

Division No. 395.]

AYES.

[3.48 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Bennett, A. J.

Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Albery, Irving James

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb"y)

Alexander, C. E. (Leyton)

Berry. Sir George

Buckingham. Sir H.

Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

Bethell, A

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Betterton, Henry B.

Bullock, Captain M.

Apsley, Lord

Bird, Sir B. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Burman, J. B.

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. w.

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Burton, Colonel H. W.

Astor, Viscountess

Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Atholl, Duchess of

Bowyer. Capt. G. E. W.

Butt, Sir Alfred

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Brass, Captain w.

Caine, Gordon Hall

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Campbell, E. T.

Barnston, Major Sir Harry

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Beamish, Captain T. p. H.

Briscoe, Richard George

Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

Chilcott, Sir Warden

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Penny, Frederick George

Christie, J. A.

Haslam, Henry C.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Hawke, John Anthony

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Clarry, Reginald George

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

Clayton, G. C.

Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

Philipson, Mabel

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Pilcher, G.

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

Hilton, Cecil

Power, Sir John Cecil

Cohen, Major J. Brunei

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Preston, William

Cooper, A. Duff

Holland, Sir Arthur

Radford, E, A.

Cope, Major William

Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

Raine, W.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Ramsden, E.

Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

Reid, D. D. (County Down)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Crook, C. W.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)

Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

Hume, Sir G. H.

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Hurd, Percy A.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hurst, Gerald B.

Salmon, Major I.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Davies, Dr. Vernon

Jacob, A. E.

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sanderson, Sir Frank

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Jephcott, A. R.

Savery, S. S.

Dean Arthur Wellesley

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

Dixey, A. C.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Drewe, C.

Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)

Shepperson, E. W.

Duckworth John

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Lamb, J. Q.

Skelton, A. N.

Edwards John H. (Accrington)

Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kino'dine, C.)

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Elveden, Viscount

Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

Smithers, Waldron

England, Colonel A.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Spender Clay, Colonel H.

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Lougher, L.

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Everard, W. Lindsay

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Steel, Major Samuel Strang

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

Lumley, L. R.

Storry Deans, R.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Fermoy, Lord

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Fielden, E. B.

McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Fleming, D. P.

Macintyre, I.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

McLean, Major A.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Forrest, W.

Macmillan, Captain H.

Tinne, J. A.

Foster, Sir Harry S.

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

Fraser, Captain Ian

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Frece, Sir Walter de

Macquisten, F. A.

Ward, U.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

Warrender, Sir Victor

Ganzoni, Sir John.

Malone, Major P. B.

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Gates, Percy.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

Margesson, Captain D.

Watson, Rt. Hon W. (Carlisle)

Gee, Captain R.

Meyer, Sir Frank

Watts, Dr. T.

Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

Wells, S. R.

Glyn, Major R. G. C.

Moles, Thomas

Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

Goff, Sir Park

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Write, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

Gower, Sir Robert

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Wiggins, William Martin

Grace, John

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Gretton, Colonel John

Murchison, C. K.

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

Grotrian, H. Brent.

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Winby, Colonel L. P.

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Nelson, Sir Frank

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

Wise, Sir Fredric

Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

Womersley, W. J.

Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Hammersley, S. S.

Nuttall, Ellis

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Hanbury, C.

Oakley, T.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Harland, A.

O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Owen, Major G.

Harrison, G. J. C.

Pease, William Edwin

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hartington, Marquess of

Pennefather, Sir John

Commander Eyres Monsell and

Colonel Gibbs.

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Baker, Walter

Barr, J.

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Batey, Joseph

Attlee, Clement Richard

Barnes, A.

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

1158

1159

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Briant, Frank

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Broad, F. A.

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Brown, James (Ayr and Butt)

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Buchanan, G.

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

Cape, Thomas

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Snell, Harry

Clowes, S.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

Cluse, W. S.

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Kelly, W. T.

Stamford, T. W.

Compton, Joseph

Kennedy, T.

Stephen, Campbell

Connolly, M.

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

Cove. W. G.

Lansbury, George

Taylor, R. A.

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Lawson, John James

Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lee, F.

Thurtie, E.

Dalton, Hugh

Livingstone, A. M.

Tinker, John Joseph

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Lowth, T.

Townend, A. E.

Day, Colonel Harry

Lunn, William

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Dennison, R.

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

Varley, Frank B.

Duncan, C.

Mackinder, W.

Viant, S. P.

Dunnico, H.

MacLaren, Andrew

Wallhead, Richard C.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Fenby, T. D.

March, S.

Warne, G. H.

Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Gibbins, Joseph

Montague, Frederick

Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Gosling, Harry

Morrison, B. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Murnin, H.

Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

Oliver, George Harold

Westwood, J.

Greenall, T.

Palin, John Henry

Whiteley, W.

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Paling, W.

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Potts, John S.

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Richardson. R. (Houghton-le Spring)

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

Groves, T.

Riley, Ben

Wilson, C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Grundy, T. W.

Ritson, J.

Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Windsor, Walter

Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

Rose, Frank H.

Wright. W.

Hall, F. (York, W. R,, Normanton)

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Scrymgeour, E.

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Scurr, John

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hardie, George D.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Charles Edwards.

Hayes, John Henry

ROADS AND STREETS IN POLICE BURGHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the. Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Thursday.

CIRCUIT COURTS AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 259.]

MINING INDUSTRY (WELFARE FUND) BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee B
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  STANDING COMMITTEE C.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSONreported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Sir Burton Chadwick.

  SCOTTISH STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSONfurther reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Scottish

  1161
  Bills (added in respect of the Sheriff Courts and Legal Officers (Scotland) Bill): Sir Henry Cowan.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers upon the Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire Electricity Company; and for other purposes." [Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire Electricity Bill [Lords.]
  BEDFORDSHIRE, CAMBRIDGESHIRE, AND HUNTINGDONSHIRE ELECTRICITY BILL [Lords].
  Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing committee) further considered.
  CLAUSE 11.—(Hating of, and collection of rates by, owners.)
  Mr. SPEAKER: In regard to the Amendments on Clause 11 it occurs to me that it might be for the convenience of the House that we should have such discussion as there may be on the Motion to leave out the Clause and then I would preserve, in putting that Question for a Division without further discussion, some of the Amendments which propose to alter the amount of the rebate—for instance, to substitute the word "five" for "ten," or "ten" for "fifteen." I think there are three points on which we might take subsequent Divisions if that course is agreeable to hon. Members.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The points raised in the three subsequent Amendments are points which differ from each other, and I was wondering whether you, Sir, would consent to one speech by the proposer in each of these cases so as to explain the difference between that particular Amendment and the other Amendments. We do not propose to press the question of leaving out Clause 11 to a Division. But we do want, not only to register our votes in the matter of these percentages, but also to have an opportunity, if possible, of making short statements on each of these Amendments.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think that is perfectly fair. If the first discussion is not too prolonged, I will take that course.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I take it that this will not preclude discussion of the Amendments which have been put down by the Minister?
  Mr. SPEAKER: No. I am dealing here only with the principle of compounding and with the amount of the rebate.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
  4.0 P.M.
  This Clause fixes the compounding system. Under it, the owner of any hereditament may arrange with the local
  1200
  authority to pay the rates of his tenants and get thereby a certain rebate. He may make this arrangement subject to paying only for those houses that are occupied and also subject to paying for all his houses whether occupied or not. The rate of rebate varies in different cases, and under the Clause we are asking to have these rates of rebate, altered to a lower figure. The point I wish to raise without dealing with the question of rebate is really a query to the Government. It is well known to the House that, under the Rent Restrictions Act, the owner who pays the rates is entitled to charge an addition to the rent dependent on the rate paid by him. We are anxious to see, in every case where the owner gets a rebate on the rates he pays, that that rebate shall also be a rebate on the rent charged to the tenant of the house. That, I believe, is the legal practice at the present time, but I am not certain that it is being carried out, and I would like to have an expression of opinion from the right hon. Gentleman on that point, in order that we may advertise to all concerned that, wherever compounding takes place, and wherever the owner gets a reduction in the rates that he has to pay to the local authority, that reduction shall be passed on in full to the tenant of the house. It was with the object of raising that issue that I put down this Amendment to reject the Clause, because, under the Clause, these rebates are going to be more extensive than they are at the present time. More people who own house property are likely to take advantage of this compounding opportunity. Therefore, so long as the Rent Restrictions Act remains in. force it will become a very important question to the owners of house property throughout the country.
  Major CRAWFURD: The question which is raised by the Amendment is a rather wider one than the mere question of the convenience of compounding or the amount of the rebate that should be allowed to an owner who collects for the local authority. An Amendment which I handed in yesterday under an earlier Clause dealt with this point, and. although I do not wish to go back to that Clause—it would be out of Order—I do want to raise the general point that was raised by that Amendment. When a rate

  1201
  is levied upon the occupier of a house, the demand note contains information with regard to the amount of the rate and the purposes for which the rate is being raised. It seems to me very important in the interests of local government that those who vote in local government affairs should have this information. If an occupier be the tenant of a compounded house, the information contained on the demand note is not known to him. You may, therefore, have large numbers of occupiers and voters who do not know the variations—the rises and falls—in the rate nor the amounts which are required for various purposes. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite in particular, who are so interested in rates at the time that local elections occur, would do well to consider this point, and I would be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman himself would hold out some hope, if the Clause is going to be retained, that he would at least consider whether he could not have inserted in another place a provision that the information which is provided on the demand note to the owners of compounded houses should also be given to the occupiers of such property.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: I was somewhat relieved to hear from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for New-castle-under-Lymo (Colonel Wedgwood) that he had not put the Amendment down with the intention of having it carried, but in order to get a little information. I hope it is going to a vote, because I am going to appeal to the House to reject the Amendment. How any man, either the right hon. and gallant Gentleman or any of the Members who sit behind him, can defend this system I am, speaking at any rate from a working-class standpoint, the standpoint of the weekly wage earner, at a loss to know. In the constituency which I represent the council some four years ago were foolish enough to abolish compounding and go back to the direct payment of rates by the tenants. What has been the result? The mother, having to budget for her weekly expenditure, found it most inconvenient to raise the large sum which had to be paid at the end of the half year. The result was that many of the tenants fell into arrears, summonses had to be issued, and great distress was caused in the town.
  1202
  There is no doubt that the convenient system for the weekly wage earner is to pay his rates with his rent. The great argument that was used against the old compounding system was that the property owners received too much for collecting the rates. I agree, but under the terms of this Bill the amount payable as a rebate to the property owners is to my mind quite reasonable and will pay the rating authorities better than having to employ men to collect, because in the particular area of which I am speaking they found that it was impossible to get this money in lump sums from the weekly wage earners. They had to engage quite a number of collectors to go round week by week for small payments. These collectors had to be paid salaries. Added to that, the rates in a large number of cases were irrecoverable and had to be excused for certain reasons. There is no doubt that the rating authority in the long run were out of pocket by abolishing the compounding system. This Clause, with the reasonable rebate allowed, will, to my mind, be a paying thing for the rating authority and undoubtedly a great boon to the weekly wage earners of this country, and I hope the House will not accept the Amendment.
  Sir PHILIP PILDITCH: I rather understood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) to say that he moved the omission of this Clause in order that provision might be made to enable the allowance which the landlord will receive to be made an allowance to the tenant in his rent.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: No, I did not make that point. I said that under the Rent Restrictions Act allowance had to be made for the rebate in the increase in the rent, and I moved the Amendment in order to get an assurance that the rebate under the Clause would be passed on to the tenants.
  Sir P. PILDITCH: These allowances are given to the landlord for the performance of specific duties and for the undertaking of specific risks. He has to pay the whole of the rates under the various circumstances described in the Clause whether he receives them or not. He takes the risk of receiving them. Surely, if he is to be allowed something towards the risk that he takes and

  1203
  towards the expenses that he may incur, it is only reasonable, whether under the Rent Restrictions Act or not, that he should receive that sum, and that it should not be handed on to the tenant. Of course, at first sight any proposition which relieves the tenant is sure of favourable consideration on all sides of the House, but here is an occasion where I think the proposal would defeat the very object of compounding, and I cannot see that there is any justification in equity for the Amendment.
  Mr. ATTLEE: We are in some difficulty with regard to this Clause, owing to the present state of the law with regard to lent restriction and rating. It is true that in compounding agreements you allow a certain percentage to the landlord for paying the rates on behalf of his tenants. The amount of the percentage varies extraordinarily up and down the country. I hear that in some areas as much as 30 or 40 and even 50 per cent. is allowed to the landlord. Take another case, an extreme case like my own borough. We abolished the existing compounding agreement, and on account of the risk of empties being to much less to-day, we were able to make new compounding arrangements and to reduce the allowance to 2i per cent. We found it quite easy to make arrangements for the weekly collection of rates through our own rate collecting staff. Here comes in the difficulty. We are going to put in certain definite figures. In certain cases, as in my own borough, that will mean giving the landlords for the performance of these duties a great deal more than they are perfectly happy to accept at the present time. On the other hand, in other areas where they have allowed a very high percentage it will result in raising the rent to numerous tenants, because, under a judicial decision, the benefit of compounding arrangements must inure to the tenants in the amount of rates that are put on to the rent under the Rent Restrictions Act. So long as we have the Rent Restrictions Act, so long shall we have these anomalies and I doubt whether the most sanguine Member on the opposite side of the House thinks that we have overtaken the shortage of houses sufficiently to abolish the Rent Restrictions Act.
  At the same time, I think that the amounts allowed here are too high for
  1204
  the risks that must be taken. There are very few areas indeed where there are any empties, and that risk is further safeguarded by Sub-section (5), under which the owner, if he shows to the satisfaction of the rating authority that ho has not, under this compounding arrangement, collected all the rates, is going to be let off a certain amount. Therefore, we are really giving him in many cases a higher percentage abatement than he is willing to accept to-day for a risk that has been materially lessened.
  I think the percentage where the rating authority makes the order is too high. I think it should be reduced, as is proposed by my friends in a further Amendment, and again I think the liberty given to the authorities to make agreements with owners for compounding is too low in some cases, having regard to the peculiar conditions created by the Rent Restriction Acts and the previous arrangements that have been made by certain local authorities, because it will result in certain areas—and areas in which particular tenants are very hard hit to-day, notably, I think, in in South Wales and Monmouth— in a general raising of rents to the tenants. On the other hand, taking a long view and regarding this as a piece of permanent legislation, if in due course the Minister of Health realises his sanguine expectations and is able to do away with the Rent Restriction Acts, the power to allow as much as 15 per cent. is, to my mind, much too high, and, therefore, we are in a difficult position altogether with regard to this Clause under the existing law. I think we want more explanations from the right hon. Gentleman as to how it will work out and why these particular amounts are put in. I suggest that the Clause really wants to be recast in order to have arrangements made for different areas in the country. I am aware that my own particular area, London, is going to be cut out of this Bill, but I have no reason to think—in fact, I have every reason to think the other way—that we shall get uniformity up and down the country between the different authorities on the amount of these compounding agreements. Unless we get something very satisfactory indeed from the Minister, I shall support the Amendment to leave out the Clause.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): I think the case has now been sufficiently well stated to enable me to make some reply, and I will begin by saying in general terms that any questions which affect the rent of rent-restricted houses are not, properly speaking, a part of this Bill, and accordingly it is not our intention in any way to alter the existing state of the law in that regard. The particular decision to which I think the right hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) referred, when he spoke of the law now providing that a landlord will receive an allowance if he collects the rates himself, and that he must pass that on to the tenant, is the decision in the case of Nicholson v. Jackson. The effect of that decision is that, while a landlord under the Rent Restriction Acts, if the rates are increased as regards a certain given datum line, may increase the rent by a corresponding amount, if, in consequence of an alteration in the allowances made to that landlord, he pays less rates than he did before, even though the reason why he pays less rates is because he is rendering a specific service for that allowance, the law provides that he must reduce the rent in accordance with the reduction in the amount of rates that he pays to the rating authority.
  As to the statement that the decision is in accordance with the law, I am bound to say it was never contemplated by those who passed the Bent Restriction Acts. The abatement given in oases of compounding was, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Sir P. Pilditch) suggested, given to the landlords because they were performing a particular service. Whether they were paid more than they should be for that service may be a matter of opinion, but there was, at any rate, an agreement that this was an allowance or commission paid to them for collecting rates which they were not otherwise by law bound to do, and it does seem a curious thing that, under the wording of the law, it should be found that this allowance made to the landlord has to be handed over to the tenant, who has performed no service for it at all. However, that is how the law stands, and we are not proposing here to make any alteration in it, because we do not consider, whatever may be the
  1206
  rights or wrongs of the case, that this is the appropriate place for making any such alteration.
  It is said that, whether we intend it or not, an alteration will be made in effect by the provisions of this Clause. I think it will be seen, if hon. Members will refer to a later provision in the Clause, namely, Sub-section (9), which gives the date on which it comes into operation, that the changes contemplated by this Clause do not come into operation until after the expiration of the Rent Restriction Acts. Hon. Members opposite may say: "But the Rent Restriction Acts may have to be prolonged, and may not actually come to an end when they are due to expire." All I can say is, if that be so, that there is plenty of time before us to consider what steps may be necessary to take, and I will go so far as to say that we certainly should consider, in the event of any prolongation of the Rent Restriction Acts, whether any steps were necessary in order to provide against an alteration in the existing practice.
  The second point is a different point, and was raised by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee). He says that the practice with regard to the allowances payable to landlords for collecting rates differ in different parts of the country, and that the abatements or allowances which are provided in the Clause are very much higher than in some cases the landlords are quite willing and happy to accept, and, he says, the result of this Clause will be to force the local authorities to grant allowances in those cases which are much more than they are doing now and which there is no justification for asking them to do, but surely the hon. Member has not considered carefully what the provisions of the Clause are. There is no compulsion upon a local authority to grant these particular allowances. They are not obliged to direct by resolution that owners of particular classes of property shall be rated, and if they think 10 per cent. is too high an allowance, all they have to do is to abstain from passing any resolution.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: They cannot carry on the present practice of a lower rate.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Why not?
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can they?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That is what I was going on to say. That is just what they can do. They can then come under Sub-section (2), and they can make agreements with the landlords, and if it be true that a landlord is quite happy and comfortable with the allowance he is now receiving, he will be very ready to enter into an agreement with the local authority as to the amount of allowance he is to receive. I would call particular attention to the wording in line 10, on page 13, from which it will be seen that in the case of these agreements the amount of the allowance is not specifically defined, but is to be "not exceeding" 15 per cent. Therefore, it is open to an authority to make any agreement which they think fair and which the landlord also thinks fair, and it appears quite clear that the dangers foreseen by hon. Members opposite are not really warranted by the wording of the Clause, that the Clause is quite elastic, and that it gives every possible opportunity for local authorities and landlords to agree upon proper and convenient scales of allowance. I think I have said all that I need say on this Amendment, but I will reserve my right of replying to a particular point which may be brought forward when we go on to deal with particular figures which hon. Members desire to substitute for those in the Bill.
  Mr. BARKER: There are two limitations in this Clause which I should like the Minister to remove. The one is that the abatements do not apply to rents collected quarterly, and I am at a loss to conceive why that is put in. My constituency think they should have unfettered discretion with reference to this matter, and, therefore, I should be glad if the Minister would amend the Clause to remove that limitation. The next-point is with reference to the rateable value of £13. I do not know why the Minister has selected that figure, because in the area that I represent most of the houses are very much higher than £13 rateable value. The Bent Restriction Acts have complicated the operation of this Clause very materially. At the present time these abatements go to the tenant, because the landlord has only the statutory rent to collect, but these abatements, as far as they affect the tenant at the present time, are very much lower in the Bill than the abatements that are at
  1208
  present in operation, and, consequently, the direct effect on these tenants will be virtually to raise their rents. I do not know whether the Minister can meet a case like that. I think the abatements, if they are left entirely as they are now, to be taken by the landlord are altogether out of proportion to the risk he runs or the service he renders, and, therefore, they should be reduced. I commend these points to the consideration of the Minister.
  Mr. MARDY JONES: I am obliged to the Minister of Health for the very careful statement he made in the name of the Government with regard to the excessive charges that may accrue to tenants when the Rent Restriction Acts cease and this new rating law comes into operation, and we had it from the Under-Secretary also, during the Committee stage, that if there will be a serious increase of burdens when this new law comes into operation, the Government will be prepared to face the situation when and as it arises. Those certainly are very welcome statements. I can predict very safely that the situation will arise, and if this Clause is to be operated three years hence on these lines it is going to have a very serious effect on the tenant class of the country in the ordinary cottage. I do not quite agree with the Minister when he said that the legal decision in the Nicholson and Jackson case, while it was good law, was not the intention of the authors of the original Rent Restriction Act. I submit that the Nicholson v. Jackson case gives legal effect to what was the real intention in this House when the first Rents Act of 1915 was brought in and carried into law. We were then in the height of a great War, and property owners were so concerned about the protection of their property that they were prepared to give the tenant class, for their loyalty to the country, a certain amount of benefit- on their house rents. Under the circumstances the tenant class will be neither better nor worse off during the period of rent restriction than before the War. This is a qualification that needs to be recorded.
  I would point out that the Minister has made no provision at all in this Clause to meet the case of the occupying-owner class in this country. There are at least half a million working-class owners of

  1209
  houses in which they live, and under the existing rating law, while compounding allowances are granted to the owners of property who collect the rates, no allowance is given to the occupying-owner class who pay their rates direct as owners and occupiers. We made an appeal in the Committee stage that that should be amended, and that the occupier-owning class under the new law should be placed in exactly the same position as the other owners of property. I submit that it is a distinction against the working classes to have the Bill drawn in this way.
  I should like the Hou30 to know the effect of Clause 11, and the abolition of the old compounding allowances in connection with it when the present Rent Restriction Act disappears. The net effect is going to be an enormous increase of rent in all those parts of England and Wales where there has been the local custom of granting this, and also in every necessitous area where there is a great deal of unemployment. I can give the House one illustration as to how this new Clause is going to affect the average house property in the South Wales coalfields area, in Monmouthshire, Glamorganshire and Carmarthenshire, and what is true of these instances is true, more or less, of many parts of the country, including the necessitous areas, which are suffering so badly from unemployment. When this Clause is put into operation two or three years hence, on a typical cottage that was let at 7s. 6d. a week before the War, the rent will jump up to 13s. 6d. per week. I do not wish to weary the House by giving the full figures that I have, but they are figures submitted to us by the clerk of the local district rating authorities of South Wales. In another instance, the increase actually of a 7s. 6d. pre-War house will be 6s. in the total rent. I submit that that is an enormous increase to be charged upon that class of tenant. Therefore I say that while this Clause takes no recognition of that kind of thing there will be obviously a serious problem as to how to adjust that inequality.
  Sir LESLIE SCOTT: The answer given by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, in regard to the criticism of matters in Sub-section (2), the House probably feels is eminently satisfactory. Persons of the class referred to are left to the discretion of the local authorities, the cost of the net increase in the rates,
  1210
  in fact, being paid at the discretion of the local authorities themselves. But there is another comparable point that I should like the Minister, if he would, to deal with, which I myself think ought to be made quite clear to the Committee.
  The House is probably aware that in the Liverpool area we have a local Act in operation in which there are special and different rates of allowance to those of the Act of 1869. For instance, there are allowances of 20 per cent. and 17½ per cent. in comparison with the 15 per cent. and 15 per cent. under Section 4 of the Act of 1869, making in all 37½ per cent. These allowances were fixed by Parliament as short a time ago as 1921. At that time the housing shortage was extremely bad, and, therefore, that matter was one which was thoroughly present to the minds of the Committee upstairs and of this House when fixing the allowances. The arrangement is one which has been working very well, and I believe with general satisfaction. Under this Clause 11, as I read it, these local arrangements, authorised by Parliament, are not interfered with unless the local authority in its discretion thinks it desirablo that there should be an alteration. Sub-section (9) of the present Clause provides that—
  "(9) These provisions of this Section shall come into operation in any rating area on the date on which the first new valuation list made under Part II of this Act for that area comes into operation, and shall have effect in substitution for the provisions contained in Sections (3) and (4) of the Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act, 1869 … and unless the rating authority concerned otherwise resolve, for any provisions contained in any local Act or provisional Order with respect to the rating of owners instead of occupiers… "
  As I read this Sub-section it seems to me quite clear that the local Act will continue if the local authority passes a resolution that it shall continue. I should, however, like an assurance from the Minister that that is so, because the members on Mersey-side are rather anxious to know that that is in fact the view of the Government of the meaning of this Clause.
  One word more, on a totally different topic—that raised by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. M. Jones). The point raised by the hon. Member dealt with the case for an allowance to the occupying owner. In so far as the reduction or allowance is given for services rendered

  1211
  it is, I think, strictly inapplicable to the case of the owner who occupies his own house, and who simply pays the rate because he occupies it. But I confess myself to a considerable feeling of sympathy with the occupying owner who is put at a disadvantage, by reason of his occupying his own house. I suggest that he should at least have as an allowance the lower rate which is paid to the owner under Sub-section (2) (b), namely, the rate applicable in the case of houses that are occupied, and during the time they are occupied. I must confess I should rather like to see the occupying owner enjoying a comparable advantage of some kind After all, the occupying owner is a man who does own his house, and that is, in effect, a guarantee to the rating authority of the payment of the rates in respect of that house. And he is a man who has invested his capital in his house, very often, after long and strenuous days of saving. I think he is entitled at least to the same measure of assistance as the owner is given in the Bill in respect of an agreement in regard to houses which are occupied, that is to say, at a lower rate than where the owner guarantees payment of the rates on all his houses, whether they are occupied or not. He is there getting payment for a guarantee of a totally different kind. That obviously is inapplicable. But I do submit for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman sin charge of the Bill that he might sympathetically consider the proposal which fell from the hon. Member for Pontypridd.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Might I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman what are the special rates in Liverpool as compared with the rates under the 1869 Act?
  Sir L. SCOTT: The first one is 35 per cent. as compared with the 25 per cent. allowed by Section (3) of the Act of 1869, and the other two are 20 per cent. and 17½ per cent. as compared with 15 per cent. and 15 per cent. under Section (4) of the Act of 1869. I do not say that these figures are in practice reached in Liverpool. I express no opinion whether they are or not. In certain cases they may be. When houses are in such demand as they are to-day it is obvious that the percentage of empty houses is necessarily small. But I only add this in regard to
  1212
  the occupying owners, that I can see no principle upon which they should be worse treated than any other class.
  Mr. BROAD: Perhaps it is not quite realised that the full consequences of Sub-section (1), paragraph 2, will be to abolish compounding where it already exists in the greater part of the industrial areas of the country. I believe, at all events, that it will abolish the general practice of compounding in industrial areas to houses which are assessed at a maximum of £10. You cannot forget the economic consequences. In my particular district, which is entirely working class, 95 per cent. of the houses put up were of such a quality that they would not be assessed at more than £10. This had the strong economic effect of depressing the standard of housing in the working-class areas. Those builders who had put up houses found that they had to spend about 1s. to get back 3d. in income, and there was almost a cessation of building houses of a price beyond those which, including rates, would let at 7s. 6d. per week. If the house had a bath fitted, and a little alteration made, putting the rent up to 8s. 6d., the landlord, I think, got another 3d. out of it. Even if you take the whole of the London suburbs you will find the bulk of working-class tenants are pre-War assessed at £10. The Minister, I believe, visualises the time, not far distant, when the Rent Restriction Act is to be removed, and when the present allowed addition of 40 per cent. will become consolidated in the rent. The house will then be reassessed, and, certainly, the percentage added to the present assessment of £10 will be to make it £14.
  Another fact to take into consideration if you retain compounding is that I urge that you should give every inducement, and allow no economic advantage, but every economic advantage, to building a better class of houses. Realising this position more than 20 odd years ago, my particular district, in a moment of enlightenment, decided to abolish compounding, with the consequence that we can raise the same amount of money locally on a certain rating with a less poundage. This was a relief, of course, to the business and trade interests and so on, and yet not less to the local authority, and no increase of the rates on the smaller tenant-occupiers. We were met by the landlords and the big house

  1213
  and estate agents, who said they would throw the rates on to the tenants and make them pay half-yearly. They said it would cost the local authority a great deal more than 15 per cent. to collect the rates. That was the threat, but in actual fact it never occurred.
  One or two landlords tried it, but when they threw on to the tenants the responsibility of paying the rates half-yearly, they found that just about the end of the half-year, when the rate collectors began to put pressure on the tenants, the rates were paid first and the rent was left in arrears. With the exception of a few of the larger houses, there is to-day no question of the landlords making the tenants collect the rates. Though they do not get 2½ per cent. for collecting the rates—they get nothing at all—they still collect them and pay them in in order to secure their rents. As to the question of the landlord being responsible for the rates, whether the house is occupied or not, we cannot see a time when houses will not be fully occupied. At the present rate at which we are overtaking arrears in housebuilding, it will be beyond my lifetime before we shall have unoccupied houses, and this means a clear gain of 15 per cent. to the landlord. If that is to be paid out of the national exchequer, it may be; but if it is to be found out of the pockets of small occupying owners and is to go into the pockets of landlords who are having none of the risks of empties such as they had a few years ago, it is a bad proposition; at any rate an allowance of 15 per cent. is not required to meet the case.
  With regard to the 10 per cent. allowance so long as the house is occupied, the only risk the landlord has to take is the risk of the tenant going away without having paid his rent, and in such a case I think 10 per cent. is too generous an allowance. As to the 5 per cent. allowed for collection, it is a fair proposition to allow something for collecting rates, but we must remember that the landlord will have the money in his pocket for three or four months before paying it into the local authority, and that is an advantage to him—the bigger the owner, the more reluctant he is to pay in those rates—and if there is to be any allowance for that, I think it should be for heavier rates than are collected in the case of £13 assessments, and that the only allowance
  1214
  should be 2½ per cent. I would ask the Minister, if he cannot meet us on these points, at any rate to take notice of the consequences of limiting these proposals to £13 assessments. If they must be retained, let it be double that amount, so as to give encouragement to the building of better class houses.
  Mr. STORRY DEANS: I cannot agree with hon. Members opposite who have been speaking of the great advantages of the compounding system to landlords, and talking as if landlords were going to make a fortune out of it. The basis of their argument is that every tenant pays to his landlord that which he has contracted to pay, and pays it punctually every week, and that the landlord has no risk whatever; that all he has to do at the end of the quarter is to pay over the rates to the local authority; and that for doing this he gets a handsome allowance of 10 per cent. If that statement represented the facts the landlord would be well paid, in fact, would be overpaid, and ought to be content with 1 or 2 per cent. for the trouble of collecting the rates. What the landlord is really paid for is not for collecting the rates and paying them over, but for guaranteeing that the rates shall be paid. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott) talks about an owner-occupier guaranteeing the payment of the rates of his own house to the local authority. I thought it was elementary knowledge that when you guarantee something you do not guarantee your own debt, you guarantee somebody else's debt.
  Sir L. SCOTT: If I may interrupt my hon. and learned Friend. In this House I try to avoid legal language, and talk the ordinary language of common sense.
  Mr. STORRY DEANS: In this case it was not only not law, but it was not common sense to talk about a man guaranteeing the payment of his own debts. Who ever heard of such a thing? The landlord says: "The rates of these cottages which I own shall be paid half-year by half-year to the local authority, whether I get the money back or whether I do not." That is a true guarantee, both in law and in common sense. When a man says, "I will guarantee that I will pay you what I owe you on the day it is due," that is not a guarantee, it is a

  1215
  figure of speech. So much for the aspect of compounding.
  The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones) was pathetic in his references to the effect of this Bill on working-class tenants. I think he is under a misapprehension. In the case of a house let at 7s. 6d. a week the owner can, even today, by giving proper notice, compel his tenant to pay any increase in rates that there has been since 1914. The only difference it can make to him when this Act comes into force will be that he will be able to put into his own pocket the allowance of 10 per cent. on the rates which now, under the Rent Restriction Acts, he has to allow to the tenant. I find it difficult to conceive that 10 per cent. of the increase of rates on a 7s. 6d. house between 1914 and to-day is 5s. 6d. a week. It will take a good many assessment clerks in South Wales or anywhere else to convince me that those figures are accurate.
  Mr. MARDY JONES: May I interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman? The point is this. As a result of the Rent Restriction Acts the power of the owner of a house to increase the rent has been limited to charging the actual increase he pays in rates over the rates in force in 1914; and in addition (after having given due notice to conclude the tenancy and to create a new tenancy) he can charge an extra 40 per cent. in rent. If the Rent Restriction Acts disappear, that protecting limit will disappear, and the only thing that will remain will be the economic law of supply and demand. Everybody knows that the supply of houses is so much less than the demand that, generally speaking, landlords, can charge any rent they like within the power of the tenant to pay. The assessment committees under this new law, like assessment committees in the past, must take into account in assessing rateable value the rent that a. house will command. An acute demand meeting a shortage of houses will mean the creation of new rateable values, and under these conditions, because of the reduced compounding allowance, and because of the reduction of the statutory reductions under the system where existing assessment committees assess Recording to the local circumstances, I have no hesitation in saying that this
  1216
  is going to lead to a serious increase in rents in necessitous areas in the near future.
  Mr. STORRY DEANS: I really think my hon. Friend has taken full advantage of my courtesy in giving way to him. I do not intend to argue the policy of the Rent Restriction Acts, either as to repealing them, allowing them to lapse or continuing them. I am directing my mind to this Bill. My only point is that the effect of the 10 per cent. allowed under this Bill cannot possibly be to raise rents of 7s. 6d. a week by 5s. 6d. I would like to add that I had an Amendment down, and it might have given rise to a long discussion, but I am quite satisfied with the assurances given by my right hon. Friend and I shall not move that Amendment.
  5.0 P.M.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: Some hon. Members have expressed surprise that an Amendment of this kind should have come from he Labour Benches, and have said they consider the compounding system the best as far as the working classes are concerned. I will place one or two figures before the House to show that it is not the best system, and how the working classes can be robbed under it. In Central Newcastle, within a year and nine months, we recovered for people £2,500 in respect of overcharges for rates. In West Newcastle we recovered £2.000. These sums were made up of amounts ranging from a few shillings to two or three pounds. To show how far this thing can be carried, let me give one extreme instance. In the ward which I represent on the Newcastle City Council there was a tenant who was paying rates with the rent, that is to say, paying rents and rates in one sum per week to the collector; on top of that she was paying rates to the same collector, and in addition she received a demand from the town hall and paid rates the third time. This was discovered through the assessment forms varying in different quarters. For one quarter the assessment form gave the assessment as £12, for the next quarter £13 10s. and for the third quarter £14. We said, "One of these may be right, they cannot all be right," and we inquired at the town hall as to which of the three was the correct assess-

  1217
  ment, and there we found that in actual fact the. assessment was £10. That woman became entitled to a return of £84 16s. She put that amount down as an instalment towards the purchase of her house, got a mortgage on it, and is now buying the house and paying less than she previously did. That is an extreme case, of course, but it shows the extent to which robbery can go on with compounding. I would like to ask the Minister a question. I understand that the Amendment in the name of the Minister, in page 12, line 39, after the word "quarterly," to insert the words "(exclusive of hereditaments belonging to the rating authority)," is not to be moved. That obviates any further remarks of mine, and I will close by saying that I hope the House will support the deletion of the Clause altogether.
  Mr. SKELTON: I rise to support the very interesting suggestion made by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott). It seems to me to be extremely good common sense, and, what is the same thing, a very sound Conservative principle, that an owning occupier, who, whatever legal meaning may be attached to the word "guarantee," undoubtedly secures, better than any other form of occupier, the payment of rates to the local authority, should get whatever rebate is given to an owner who undertakes to pay rates for the houses he owns, whether occupied or not. I do not know whether at this stage of the discussion it would be possible for the Minister to include such a provision in the Bill, but I could not let; such an interesting suggestion be made without rising to support it.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I rise only to put two points, which I think affect this Clause. I should have been inclined to vote against the proposal to leave out the Clause had it not been for the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, because it appears that he proposes to stick to his percentages. I think the percentages are altogether too high, for two reasons. One is that there is a complete shortage of houses, but no shortage of tenants, and all this compounding was begun, or, at least, defended in the East End of London in the old days on the plea that the man
  1218
  paid whether the houses were occupied or not. That state of things has passed away, and the question of empties does not arise at all. Therefore, a very much less amount ought to be paid for the mere collection when he is collecting the rent with the rates, and I would point out there is no option with regard to houses as to how much the rating authorities may allow. The right hon. Gentleman is at some pains to continue to say to us that the authority need not do it, but if the authority does want to compound this Clause says the rating authority "shall allow to any owner." It is not a question of "may" allow, but if the authority want to compound, they can only compound by paying 10 per cent. I think the Minister ought really to have met us on that point, and I think also he ought to realise that putting in a figure like that, even if it were optional, would be almost invariably the figure that the house owners would demand. I should have voted against leaving the Clause out, but, apparently, the Minister is going to be adamant on the subject, and, if so, I shall vote against the Government proposal as in the Clause.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): Perhaps the House will allow me briefly to reply, as best I can, to some of the questions that have been put, and we shall then, I have no doubt, be able to proceed to the other Amendments on the Order Paper which raise more specifically some of the points which have been put. Perhaps I might make an observation on the speech just made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He said, in criticising the percentages which are allowed in this Clause, that they were too high, and one of the reasons he put forward was that there was still a housing shortage, and, therefore, there would be no considerable risk to be safeguarded so far as empty premises were concerned. I think both in this matter and in connection with the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman opposite, the House should certainly remember that, of course, the operation of this Clause does not come into being: until 1928. Therefore, so far as the position of housing is concerned, if the present rate of progress, which, as the House knows, is a record in this country, continues, no doubt by the year 1928

  1219
  there will be a very considerable alteration in affairs so far as housing shortage in this country is concerned, and that ought certainly to be taken into account in any consideration of the amount of percentages in this connection. Whether the House agree with the percentages in the Bill or not, I would say that they were subjected to very long discussion in Committee, where Members took the view that percentages were either too high or too low, and various Amendments were moved much in the same terms as those on the Paper to-day. I think it is only fair to say that the Committee as a whole took the middle course, and considered the percentages now set out in the Bill on the whole fairly met the situation. I think it can be fairly said of all the per centages in the Bill that they differ from those, in some cases of a very high and extravagant character, which were made in the years gone by.
  Another point which was put was, why should £13 be the limit In the first place. Members of the House, I dare say. will remember that the Kill was circulated a very long while ago, and the proposal of £13 was the suggestion that was made in the draft Hill as a reason able one. That went to all the local authorities in the country and their particular associations, and was the subject of a great deal of consideration by them. Since that time—and it is a very considerable time ago—we have not had, at any rate to the best of my recollection, a single criticism from any body of local authorities up and down the country in relation to the figure,£l3, and that is so for a very good reason, because I see that the limits of value which previously appertained were, for instance, in Birmingham £10, and elsewhere £8. It is True we must add to that the 40 per cent, permitted by the Increase of Rent Act. but on those figures the House will see that, in fact, taking the whole of the country, those particular figures might have been increased.
  Mr. BROAD: The hon. Member stated that the draft Bill was circulated to the local authorities a long while since. They then had not in mind the consolidation of the 40 per cent, increase under the Rent Restrictions Act. Had they had that in mind, the figure might have been very different.
  Sir K. WOOD: I do not think it would have been so, because, as a matter of fact, right up to the Report stage of this Bill my Department has been in close contact with the various associations up and down the country. Therefore, if there be any point in the observations of the hon. Gentleman, I am sure we should have heard from the local authorities, and we have not had a single criticism in that connection. I hope the hon. Gentleman who raised this question in Committee, and forecasted the effect of this particular Clause on the rates in South Wales, now understands the situation, as I believe he does, In other words, this particular Clause does not come into operation until the expiration of the Rent Restrictions Act. and when that time arrives, as I told him in Committee, we shall, of course, undertake the consideration, of the situation: as it then is. and the situation generally of the future of. the Rent Restrictions Act and this particular Clause, and will have to provide for it, if it be desirable so to do. Obviously, that is a matter we must leave to that particular time to deal with.
  May I also refer to the interpretation. given by my hon. and learned friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott)? I think my best course would be to say I confirm the statement he made as to the position of authorities under Sub-section (9), and particularly that. phrase which makes pro vision for any local Act or Provisional Order. I think he quite correctly stated the position so far as that is concerned. The only other point is in connection with the position of the occupying owner, and the House may observe that there is an Amendment, which, I hope, we shall reach shortly, in the names of three hon. Members, to insert a new Sub-section (10). the last words of which are, "and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof." I have no doubt we shall have an opportunity of dealing with the position of the owner-occupier when we reach that Amendment. It should, how ever, at once be said, that as far as the owner-occupiers are concerned, although I am sure my hon. and learned Friend and I desire to encourage them in every way, as I suppose most Members of the House do, of course they can take advantage of Clause 8 making arrangements for dis-

  1221
  count for prompt payment. How far it is necessary to give this provision to owner occupiers when, of course, this is a payment for collection, is a matter that, I think, we might easily and most conveniently consider when we come to the particular Clause. I think I have answered all the points.
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Is is. obviously, important, before we come In a decision whether or not to vote against this Clause, that we should have-some idea as to the attitude of the Minister on the Amendment referred to. If he says he is prepared to accept the point of view put on this side and also by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division (Sir L. Scott) when we come to that Amendment, that might affect cur decision.
  Sir K. WOOD: That, is a matter upon which we should like to hear a discussion, although I cannot agree that it is a question which goes to the whole roof of the Clause. I hope the House will now be satisfied with the very full and useful discussion which has taken place, on this Clause, and allow us to proceed with the Amendments.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: A reference has. been made to both the inclusion and the withdrawal of the Amendment of the Minister on page 12. I would like to know if that is going to be withdrawn?
  Sir K. WOOD: Yes, that is so.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: We have heard the statement. from the Parliamentary Secretary that the housing problem will be solved in 1928—
  Sir K. WOOD: My argument was that we should reconsider the matter in 1928 when we have had all the facts before us. Of course, no one can prophesy what the position will be then, but although the hon. Member is not quite so sanguine. as I am, we can review the situation in 1928.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: The. Government are basing their arguments for this Bill upon that assumption. [Hon. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I would like to point out that this time last year there was a short age of over 100,000 houses. It is quite true that this has been a record year, but
  1222
  you are only now about 30,000 above the normal.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I do not think this question ought to be pursued on this Amendment.
  Mr. G. HALL: I want to ask a question as to whether these allowances which have been referred to are temporary allowances on account of subsidences in connection with colliery workings. I would also like to know how far this pro vision will prevent local authorities giving temporary relief?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: That has nothing whatever to do with this Clause, and it is dealt with under another Clause.
  Mr. ALEXANDER: We were rather expecting some answer from the Parliamentary Secretary to the remarks which were made by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) who spoke about the practise of compounding rent. I want the Minister to take note of. some of the things which are going on in the City or Sheffield, which I represent. I have received a communication from the Sheffield Tenants' Association in which they state that they are anxious that the House of Commons should oppose this Clause because of the increased power it will put into the hands of landlords under present conditions because it tends to heap up more readily the arrears of rent, more especially in the case of unemployed persons, and it also increases the landlords' power to carry out evictions. We have had many discussions during the last two or three Parliaments about evictions, but there is a strong feeling on the. part of the Sheffield Tenants' Association that their position will be made worse if this Clause is passed. They were hoping that when the Minister of Health produced his Rating and Valuation Bill there would be some pro vision for relieving them in this respect rather than making things more strenuous.
  They have put to me one or two special cases. There was the case of a Sheffield estate agent who was caught improperly detaining tenants' rate money, and he had to hand over £21 14s. in order to keep his name from appearing in the Courts. But for the Sheffield Tenants' Association that money would never have been

  1223
  recovered. In. another case a tenant was ejected from his house by an agent for arrears of rent and rates. He was told that he owed £13, but he afterwards discovered that there was entered against him £20 12s. for rates alone. It was shown that considerable arrears had not been paid in by the agent. I do not want to take up the time of the House relating such instances, but I want to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary that many of us are receiving from our constituents communications about the maintenance of the principle of compounding to the detriment of the poorer class of weekly tenants, and we wish him to take that point into account in considering the whole Clause
  Mr. VIANT: It seems to me that the merits of this Clause have been put forth as being to the advantage of the tenants, but that is an argument which I want to challenge. I have sat on a local authority, and we decided to abolish the compounding system. The astounding argument has been used that these abatements are allowed to the owners of property because of the risk they run, but in the case of the local authority to which I have referred we found that the property owners in the district, when they heard that the compounding system was about to be abolished, sent deputations to the council to persuade them not to carry out that policy.
  That in itself, although it is not an isolated case, suggests to me that there is no risk entailed by the property owner such as has been argued here to-day which justifies this House in passing this Clause. The abatements are much too high. I oppose the Clause from another point of view. I am opposed to the system of compounding simply because it is detrimental to critizenship. I have in mind an estate upon which the compounding system was in vogue, and when the local elections took place you could not on that estate stimulate any interest in citizenship.
  Personally, I would oppose any principle of compounding on that ground alone, because it is always detrimental to the tenants and beneficial to the property owners. I hope we are going to have an opportunity of supporting this Amendment for the purpose of voting against this Clause. I feel that the wage-earners may find it difficult to put away so much every week for rent, but ultimately if they do this we should gain from the point of view of citizenship. On those grounds I am prepared to go into the Division Lobby and vote against this Clause.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'which,' in line 13, stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 310, Noes, 124.

  Division No. 396.]

  AYES.

  [5.27 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Clayton, G. C.

  Albery, Irving James

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Astor, Viscountess

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Couper, J. B.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Craig, Capt Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Burman, J. B.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Crook, C. W.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Bennett, A. J.

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Campbell, E. T.

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Berry, Sir George

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Bethell, A.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Christie, J. A.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur C.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Drewe, C.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Duckworth John

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  England, Colonel A.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Rye, F. G.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Falls, Sir Bertram G.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Sandon, Lord

  Fenby, T. D.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Savery, S. S.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Fielden, E. B.

  Lougher, L.

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Finburgh, S.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Forrest, W.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Skelton, A. N.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Smithers, Waldron

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  McLean, Major A.

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon Ronald John

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Gates, Percy

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Gee, Captain R.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Margesson, Capt. D.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Meller, R. J.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Grace, John

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Grant, J. A.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Grotrian, H. Brent.

  Moles, Thomas

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Waddington, R.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Neville, R. J.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Hanbury, C.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Harland, A.

  Nicholson, O- (Westminster)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Wells, S. R.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Owen, Major G.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Henderson, Lieut. Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Williams, Herbert G, (Reading)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hilton, Cecil

  Philipson, Mabel

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Pielou. D. P.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Pilcher, G.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Womersley, W. J.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Preston, William

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Radford, E. A.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Raine, W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)

  Ramsden, E.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Major Sir Harry Barnston and

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Major Cope.

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon, W. (Fife, West)

  Baker, Walter

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Barnes, A.

  Briant, Frank

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Barr, J.

  Broad, F. A.

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Batey, Joseph

  Bromfield, William

  1226

  1227

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Buchanan, G.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)

  Cape, Thomas

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Snell, Harry

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Spencer, G A. (Broxtowe)

  Clowes, S.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Stamford, T. W.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lansbury, George

  Stephen, Campbell

  Compton, Joseph

  Lawson, John James

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Connolly, M.

  Lee, F.

  Taylor, R. A.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lowth, T.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lunn, William

  Thurtle, E.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Mackinder, W.

  Townend, A. E.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Dennison, R.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Varley, Frank B.

  Duncan, C.

  March, S.

  Viant, S. P.

  Dunnico, H.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Montague, Frederick

  Warne, G. H.

  Gosling, Harry

  Morrison, R. c. (Tottenham, N.)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Murnin, H.

  Watts-Morgan. Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Greenall, T.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Greenwood. A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Paling, W.

  Westwood, J.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Potts, John S.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Groves, T.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Whiteley, W.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Riley, Ben

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Ritson, J.

  Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark. N.)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Windsor, Walter

  Hardie, George D.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wright, W.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Scurr, John

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smillie, Robert

  Charles Edwards.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 12, line 14, to leave out the word "either," and to insert instead thereof the words
  "by reference to rateable value and also, if rent is paid."
  This is really a drafting Amendment. The purpuse of the Clause is shown in the proviso which follows, which shows that there are two conditions which must be observed in order to enable compounding to be directed, namely, that the rent must by collected at less than quarterly intervals, and that the rateable value of the property must not exceed £13. In Sub-section (1) it is stated that these two are alternatives, and the result of my Amendment is to make it clear that in the Sub-section, as well as in the proviso, both conditions have to be observed.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 12, leave out from the word "collected "in line 15 to the word "the" in line 17.—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 12, line 20, after the word "which," to insert the words "becomes payable or."
  1228
  This is merely a drafting Amendment, intended to bring this paragraph into line with the one which follows.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 12, line 32, to leave out the word "allow," and to insert instead thereof the word "make."
  This is in order that the phrase may be
  'make an allowance "
  instead of
  "allow an abatement."
  The object, in this case also, is to bring the wording into line with what follows in the subsequent paragraph.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in page 12, line 33, to leave out the word "such," and to insert instead thereof the words
  "the expiration of one-half of the period in respect of which the rate is made (or, if the rate is payable by instalments, one-halt of the period in respect of which the instalment is payable) or, such later."
  I desire to apologise to the House for the fact that I am moving this Amendment in a somewhat different form from that in which it appears on the Order Paper, the

  1229
  Amendment as it stands on the Order Paper being to leave out from the word "rate," in line 33, to the word "an," in line 34, and to insert instead thereof the words
  "on or before such date, or dates (not being earlier than two months before the expiration of the period in respect of which the rate is made) as may be specified by the rating authority in the direction or if no date or dates are specified before the expiration of the period in respect of which the rate is made."
  The object is in both cases the same, namely, to prevent this abatement being affected by a resolution on the part of the local authority decreeing a date immediately after the making of the rate, by which the owner must pay if he is to gain it. I am particularly interested in the case of the smaller owners of house property, a large part of whose income is, derived from rents. I think it is only fair that they should have some time in which to collect both rent and rates before they are compelled to make a lump-sum payment to the local authority. When I originally drafted my Amendment, I was under the impression that all rates were payable in two half-yearly instalments, but I have since been informed that in certain cases the rates are payable once a year only, and in others quarterly. To meet that difficulty I have had to bring forward this Amendment in a different form from that on the Paper. I sincerely hope the House will accept the Amendment, because I feel that it will be a considerable measure of justice to small owners of house property, and, as this part of the Clause is compulsory, it will not be of any disadvantage to the local authority.
  Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. SCURR: I desire to make, a very emphatic protest against an Amendment of this character being moved in this manner. The hon. and gallant Member's Amendment has been on the Paper for some days, and we have been able to study it and cither to agree or to disagree with it. Now we have, if I may use the phrase, flung at us a long series of words, and, really, we are unable to appreciate what is the exact meaning of this Amendment. It may be a good Amendment; it may be one which we would desire to support, but we are in the position at the present moment of
  1230
  being absolutely in the dark, and I want to protest emphatically against the House being treated in this way. There has been plenty of time for an Amendment of this character to be tabled, so that we might be able to consider it in all its details.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have some sympathy with the hon. Member's pro test, because I know how difficult it is to follow words when they are read out for the first time. Perhaps I must take some of the blame from my hon. and gallant Friend in this matter, because the defect in his Amendment was pointed out to him by my Department, and it was my original intention to call attention to the fact that he had lost sight of the, point that sometimes rates are payable quarterly, and to find words which might be inserted in another place. But then, it seemed to me, that as he had already found the words it would, perhaps, be more convenient to put them in at once instead of waiting for them to be put in in another place, and I advised, there fore, that the words should be submitted to the House. I think that, if I may just read the words to the House as they will appear, they will be seen to be fairly clear, although, as I have said, I know that it is not easy to follow words which are only read and not printed.
  This is what the rating authority is to do: It is to
  "make to any owner who, being so rated, pays the amount due by him in respect of the rate before the expiration of one-half of the period in respect of which the rate, if made (or, if the rate is payable by instalments, one-half of the period in respect of which the instalment is payable), or such Inter date or dates as may be specified in the Resolution."
  I think that is a reasonable Amendment, and I recommend the House to accept it.
  Mr. HARDIE: In a case such as is before the House now, when a fresh Amendment is brought in, is it within the right of any hon. Member to ask a question for further information of the Member who moves it?
  Captain BENN: I think we have some cause for complaint against the right hon. Gentleman that he not only discusses this privately with his supporters —he is entitled to do that—but agrees to concessions to his own supporters. There is plenty of opportunity to put

  1231
  the notice down on the Paper so that we may know what is going to be moved. It is impossible for anyone to follow Amendments which are read suddenly like this, even after explanation by the Mover and the Minister. I think this protest should be registered against the way the Bill is being forced through the House.
  Mr. GUEST: Is not the effect of the Amendment going to be to require the spending authority to carry balances in hand as under the old system? At present rates are generally payable on demand. They are not always paid on demand, but throughout the half-year rates are paid by different persons who are liable. If you pass a Clause like this, the tendency will be for no rates to be paid at all until after the period has gone, and the spending authorities must carry forward, at the end of each quarter, a very large balance.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 12, line 34, leave out the word "abatement," and insert instead thereof the word "allowance."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  Mr. SCURR: I beg to move, in page 12, line 35, to leave out the word "ten," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."
  The object of the Clause, as I understand it, is that when the owner is rated he will receive an allowance of 10 per cent., and the object of the Amendment is to reduce that to 5 per cent. In London an allowance is made of something just over 5 per cent. in regard to the management of the whole of the property- looking after it, taking care of it,
  seeing that it is in a proper state of repair, and so on—yet under this Clause, simply because the owner is rated instead of the occupier, it proposes to give him 10 per cent. I think that is absolutely unfair in respect to the rest of the ratepayers. We have to remember the difference between a rate and a tax. A taxis simply the levying of a certain figure, and the amount that may be collected is uncertain. It may be move or less than the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipates. A rate is for a certain definite sum which has to be obtained from the body of ratepayers, and if one particular body of ratepayers receives an advantage, other bodies of ratepayers suffer. Under this proposal certain landlords are going to get a very considerable advantage, namely 10 per cent., and we contend that that is a gross injustice to the rest of the ratepayers. If any sum at all is given, 5 per cent. is certainly sufficient.
  Mr. HARDIE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I can only repeat what I said on the general discussion on the Clause, that there can be no possible injustice or hardship in accepting this figure, because it is not a figure which is compulsory. It is in the discretion of the local authorities themselves whether they utilise the powers of the Clause or not. If they think 10 per cent., which is very much lower than the rate now existing, is too high, all they have to do is not to pass the Resolution directing the owners to be rated.
  Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill."
  The, House divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 144.

  Division No. 397.]

  AYES.

  [5.55 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Bennett, A. J.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Albery, Irving James

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Brown, Brig. Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Berry, Sir George

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Bethell, A.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Applin, Colonel R, V. K.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Burman, J. B.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Blundell, F. N.

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Campbell, E. T.

  Balniel, Lord

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Charters, Brigadier-General J.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Christie, J. A.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col V. L. (Bootle)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Honeage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Preston, William

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hilton, Cecil

  Radford, E. A.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Raine, W.

  Corkerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

  Ramsden, E.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Couper, J. B.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Crock, C. W.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Crooke J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rye, F. G.

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Hurt, Gerald B.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Samuel, A M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Daziel Sir Davison

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Davidson Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Sandon, Lord

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Savery, S. S.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Sheffield, sir Berkeley

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Drewe, C.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Duckworth, John

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Skelton, A. N.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Elveden, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  England, Colonel A.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Smithers, Waldron

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lougher, L.

  Sport, Sir Alexander

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Stanley, Hon. D. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Storry Deans, R.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Fielden, E. B.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Finsburgh, S.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Fleming, D. P.

  McLean, Major A.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Galbraith J. F. W.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Waddington, R.

  Gates, Percy.

  Meller, R. J.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Gee, Captain R.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Moles, Thomas

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Grace, John

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Grant, J. A.

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Wells, S. R.

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple

  Grotrian, H. Brent.

  Neville, R. J.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A (Brecon & Rad.)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hanbury, C.

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Harland, A.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Womersley, W. J.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Harney, E. A.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Pilcher, G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Lord Stanley and Major Cope.

  1234

  1235

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Scurr, John

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Baker, Waller

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hardie, George D.

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Barnes, A.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Smillie, Robert

  Barr, J.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hayday, Arthur

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Snell, Harry

  Briant, Frank

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Broad, F. A.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Bromfield, William

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Stamford, T. W.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Buchanan, G.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Taylor, R. A.

  Charleton. H. C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Clowes, S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbre-. W.)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kenworthy. Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lansbury, George

  Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaistow)

  Thurtle, E.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lawson, John James

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Compton, Joseph

  Lee, F.

  Townend, A. E.

  Connolly, M.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lowth, T.

  Varely, Frank B.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lunn, William

  Viant, S. P.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Dalton, Hugh

  Mackinder, W.

  Warne, G. H.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Watson, W. M. (Duntermline)

  Davies, Ellis, Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  March, S.

  Dennison, R.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Duncan, C.

  Montague, Frederick

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Dunnico, H.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Westwood, J.

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Murnin, H.

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Whiteley, W.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

  Owen, Major G.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Forrest, W.

  Palln, John Henry

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Paling, W.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Potts, John S.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Gosling, Harry

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Windsor, Walter

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Richardson, n. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wright, W.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Ceat.)

  Riley, Ben

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Greenall, T.

  Ritson, J.

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Allen

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Parkinson.

  Groves. T.

  Mr. RILEY: I beg to mover, in page 13, line 11, to leave out the word "fifteen" and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."
  6.0 P.M.
  The Clause provides for an arrangement to be made to allow property-owners 15 per cent. discount, provided the property-owner undertakes to pay the rates on occupied and unoccupied property. Our answer to that is that there is no unoccupied house property today Therefore, the owner is under no risk, or very
  small risk, in regard to losing on such an arrangement at the present time. We submit that 10 per cent. would be an adequate amount to cover all the risk which the owner is likely to incur at the present time.
  Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Question put. "That the word 'fifteen' stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 143.

  Division No. 398]

  AYES.

  [6.6 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Albery, Irving James

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bennett, A. J.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Balniel, Lord

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Berry, Sir George

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Bethell, A.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Moles, Thomas

  Blundell, F. N.

  Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Grace, John

  Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Grant, J. A.

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Greene, W. P, Crawford

  Neville, R. J.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Brown, Brig-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Hanbury, C.

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Burman, J. B.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Penny, Frederick George

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Harland, A.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Harney, E. A.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Pielou, D. P.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Pilcher, G.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Preston, William

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Radford, E. A.

  Christie, J. A.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Raine, W.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Ramsden, E.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hilton, Cecil

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Cohen, Major J Brunei

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Couper, J. B.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col Sir George L.

  Howard, Captain Hon Donald

  Ruggles-Crise, Major E. A.

  Craig, Capt Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Carig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Rye, F. G.

  Crook, C. W.

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Salmon, Major I.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Samuel, A. M. (surrey, Farnham)

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Hutchison. G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Sandon, Lord

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Jacob, A. E.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Savery, S. S.

  Davidson, Major General Sir J. H.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Skelton, A. N.

  Drew, C.

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Duckworth, John

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Locker Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Elliot Captain Walter E.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Elveden Viscount

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  England, Colonel A.

  Lougher, L.

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Storry Deans, R.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Macintyre, Ian

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Fielden, E. B.

  McLean, Major A.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Finburgh, S.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Fleming, D. P.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Mac Robert, Alexander M.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Waddington, R.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Meller, R. J.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Gates, Percy

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Gee, Captain R.

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  1238

  1239

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Wells, S. R.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Captain Hacking and Major Cope.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Scurr, John

  Baker, Walter

  Hardie, George D.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Barnes, A.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Barr, J.

  Hastings, Sir Patrick

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hayday, Arthur

  Smillie, Robert

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Briant, Frank

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Broad, F. A.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Snell, Harry

  Bromfield, William

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Buchanan, G.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Clowes, S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Taylor, R. A.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lansbury, George

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lawson, John James

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Compton, Joseph

  Lee, F.

  Thurtle, E.

  Connolly, M.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Cove, W. G.

  Lowth, T.

  Townend, A. E.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lunn, William

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Mackinder, W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  March, S.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dennison, R.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Duncan, C.

  Montague, Frederick

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Dunnico, H.

  Morris, R. H.

  Westwood, J.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Murnin, H.

  Whiteley, W.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Forrest, W.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Owen, Major G.

  Williams, T (York, Don Valley)

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Palin, John Henry

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Gosling, Harry

  Paling, W.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Windsor, Walter

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Potts, John S.

  Wright, W.

  Greenall, T.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Riley, Ben

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Ritson, J.

  Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles

  Groves, T.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Edwards.

  Mr. SCURR: I beg to move, in page 13, line 12, to leave out the words "seven and one-half," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."
  Under the proposal in the Bill, 7½ per cent. is to be paid to the owner who so long as the hereditament is occupied pays the rates chargeable in respect thereof, while under paragraph (c) only 5 per cent. is paid to the owner who will collect the rents from the occupier on behalf of the authority. It seems to me that the owner referred to in paragraph (b) is not put to any great trouble in the matter, whereas in the case of the owner referred to in paragraph (c) there may be con-
  1240
  siderable trouble in doing the work of collecting on behalf of the authority. Yet in the former case the owner gets 7½ per cent. and in the latter case 5 per cent. This seems to me to be an instance of putting the cart before the horse, and I think that the amount should be 5 per cent. in the case of owners covered by paragraph (b) and 7½ per cent. in the case of those covered by paragraph (c).
  Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words 'seven and one-half' stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 307; Noes, 136.

  Division No. 399.]

  AYES.

  [6.17 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Albery, Irving James

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Drewe, C.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Duckworth, John

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Balniel, Lord

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Elveden, Viscount

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  England, Colonel A.

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Looker, Herbert William

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Lougher, L.

  Bennett, A. J.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Berry, Sir George

  Fermoy, Lord

  Lumley, L. R.

  Bethell, A.

  Fielden, E. B.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Betterton, Henry R.

  Finburgh, S.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Fleming, D. P.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  McLean, Major A.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Gates, Percy.

  Meller, R. J.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Gee, Captain R.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Moles, Thomas

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Grace, John

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Grant, J. A.

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Burman, J. B.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Grotrian, H. Brent.

  Neville. R. J.

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Caine Gordon Hall

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Cassels, J. D.

  Hanbury, C

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester City)

  Harland, A.

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Harmsworth Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)

  Harney, E. A.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Christie, J. A.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Pilcher, G.

  Carry, Reginald George

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Clayton, G. C.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Preston, William

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Radford, E. A.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunei

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Raine, W.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hilton, Cecil

  Ramsden, E.

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Reid Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Cope, Major William

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

  Reid D. D. (County Down)

  Couper, J. B.

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Rentoul, G S.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Crook, C. W.

  Howard, Capt. Hon. D, (Cumb., N.)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Rye, F. G.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Salmon, Major I.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  1242

  1243

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Sandon, Lord

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Savery, S. S.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Skelton, A. N.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Smith, K. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Waddington, R.

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Smithers, Waldron

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston on-Hull)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Sprot, Sir Alexander

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Captain Hacking and Captain

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Wells, S. R.

  Margesson.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Scurr, John

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hardie, George D.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hastings, Sir Patrick

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  Baker, Walter

  Hayes, John Henry

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Smillie, Robert

  Barnes, A.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Barr, J.

  Hirst, P. H.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hudson. J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Snell, Harry

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

  Briant, Frank

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Broad, F. A.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Stamford, T. W.

  Bromfield, William

  Kennedy, T.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Buchanan, G.

  Lansbury, George

  Taylor, R. A.

  Cape, Thomas

  Lawson, John James

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lee, F.

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

  Clowes, S.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lowth, T.

  Thurtle, E.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon John R.

  Lunn, William

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Connolly, M.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Abernvon)

  Townend, A. E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Mackinder, W.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Varley, Frank B.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Viant, S. P.

  Dalton, Hugh

  March, S.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Evan (Ehbw Vale)

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Montague, Frederick

  Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Morris, R. H.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Dennison, H.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Duncan, C.

  Murnin, H.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Fenby, T. D.

  Naylor. T. E.

  Westwood, J.

  Forrest, W.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Whiteley, W.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Owen, Major G.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Gosling, Harry

  Palin, John Henry

  Williams David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Paling, W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Wilson, C. K. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Greenall, T.

  Potts, John S.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Rees. Sir Beddoe

  Windsor, Walter

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wright, W.

  Griffiths T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Riley, Ben

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Groves T.

  Ritson, J.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Edwards.

  Hall, F (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 13, line 14, at the end, to insert the words
  "An allowance made under this subsection to an owner who is rated under the preceding sub-section shall be deemed to be in lieu of the allowance to be made under that sub-section."
  1244
  It has been represented by some people that as the Bill stands it might be possible for the owner under Sub-section (1) of this Clause to get the 10 per cent. provided for in that Sub-section, and, when he enters into an agreement with the local authority under Sub-section (2), to get another 15 per cent., making 25 per cent.

  1245
  in all. The object of this Amendment is to make clear that the allowance under the second Sub-section is not to be taken as an addition to the allowance under the first Sub-section.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 13, line 40, to leave out from the word "shall" to the first word "be" in page 14, line 1.
  This Amendment and the three Amendments which follow must be taken together, and when so taken it will be found that they are simply drafting Amendments merely to improve the wording of the Clause.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think that is this case the right hon. Gentleman should read out the Clause as it will stand after these Amendments are made. It is impossible to follow these Amendments when we go through them in this fashion, and the light hon. Gentleman, in common decency, ought to read out the new wording of the Clause so that we may be certain of its sense.
  Amendment agreed to
  Further Amendments made: In page 14, line 2. leave out the word "chargeable" and insert instead thereof the word "due."
  In line 3, after the word "collected," insert the words "by him in respect of rent and rates."
  In line 4, after the word "due," insert the words "in respect thereof."—(Mr. Chamberlain.)
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 14, line 4, at the end, to insert the words:
  "Unless the undertaking by the owner to collect rates expressly so provides, the expression 'rates due' shall not, for the purposes of the provisions of this Section relating to an undertaking by an owner to collect rates, include rates accruing due before the date on which the undertaking comes into operation, nor for the purposes of this Sub section shall account be taken of rent which accrued due before that date."
  This is more than a drafting Amendment. The words which we have just passed provide that where an owner who is liable to both rent and rates to the Rating Authority has collected something either more or less than the amount due
  1246
  for a particular period the amount calculated as rates shall bear a proper pro portion to the aggregate amount that he has collected. But we have now to consider the case where an owner has only just entered into an agreement, and on entering into it there may be arrears of rates or rent, or both. The object of the Amendment is to provide that any arrears which are due before an undertaking was entered into by the owner to pay the rates, shall be excluded from this proportionate arrangement, and that the part which we have just passed will apply only where the undertaking has already been in force.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I want to be quite clear about this Amendment. I understand that it is contemplating a condition where there are certain rates due to the Council or possibly where certain rents are due to the owner. This matter of the proportionate amount is not to apply to both? It does not, mean that if the owner has a large amount of rent owing to him, and he collects all that, it will be taken into account in connection with the amount of rates he has to pay? It docs not mean, I presume. that he will escape any rates?
  Mr. WOMERSLKY: How will this apply in the case of an authority that has had a direct rating system in operation and then decides to adopt this system? Will the property owner be responsible for the arrears owing on that property? Have I made that clear?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: In my own town we have direct rating in operation. Many of the tenants are owing large sums in arrears to the rating authority. If the authority in that town decides to adopt this system, can the authority make the owner of the property responsible for the arrears that the tenant owes.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No.
  Mr. WOMERSLEY: They have that impression in my town. I hope that the Clause makes the- point clear.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Sir K. WOOD: I beg to move, in page 14, line 26, to leave out the words "and twelve,'' and to insert instead thereof the words "twelve and nineteen."

  1247
  It is intended, where owners are rated instead of the occupiers, that the name of the occupiers should be entered in the ratebook.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: I beg to move, in page 14, line 40, to leave out the words, "be treated as being," and to insert instead thereof the words "have the same rights as."
  My hon. and gallant Friend (Major Crawfurd), in whose name this Amendment appears, has assumed that the words he wishes to leave out refer to the owner and his right of appeal. What my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind is that the words might exclude the occupier from having rights as to appeal. There fore, he wishes to have inserted other words which will preserve the right of the occupier to have an appeal as well as the owner.
  Mr. P. HARRIS: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: I quite agree with the proposition that has been put forward, and it is what is expressed in the Clause. We are a little doubtful, however, about the words in the suggested Amendment. We shall endeavour between now and the appearance of the Bill in another place to find other words to meet the point.
  Captain BENN: I am much obliged.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. Rye:— In page 14, line 42, at the end, to insert the words
  "Any owner who, in consequence of such direction as aforesaid, shall have paid any rates which but for such direction would have been payable by the tenant of the hereditament to which the rates applied in pursuance of a contract entered into between the tenant and the landlord of the hereditament shall be entitled to enforce payment of all amounts so paid as aforesaid either by means of distress as though the same were rent in arrear due from the tenant to the landlord or by action against the tenant for the recovery of the same as a debt due from the tenant to the landlord, and the landlord shall be entitled to employ either or both of such means of recovering payment of all rates so paid by him as aforesaid, provided that no distress or action to recover the amounts so paid as aforesaid shall be levied or commenced as the case may be until after the expiration of fourteen days from the ser vice of a notice in writing by the landlord
  1248
  to the tenant stating the amount of the rates paid by the landlord, and also stating that unless the same are paid to the landlord within fourteen days of the receipt of the notice the landlord would become entitled to recover payment from the tenant either by means of distress as though the amount due to the landlord were rent in arrear or by action for recovery of the said amount as a debt owing from the tenant to the landlord.
  "For the purpose of this Section any notice served thereunder shall be deemed to have been duly served on the tenant if left on the demised hereditament for the tenant or if sent by registered letter addressed to him at such hereditament."
  Mr. RYE: I do not wish to move this Amendment, but I would like to move one which stood in my name on the Amendment Paper yesterday, as follows: In page 12, line 35, at the end to add the words,
  "Any owner who in consequence of such direction as aforesaid shall have paid any rate which but for this Section would have been payable as between the owner and the occupier by the occupier in pursuance of any contract made between such owner and occupier shall be entitled to be reimbursed by the occupier the amount so paid."
  My reason for putting down this Amendment is that I am not certain that any landlord who is called upon to pay rates in consequence of the Resolution and direction passed by the Rating Authority under Clause 11, would be entitled to claim reimbursement from his tenant who has undertaken, as between himself and the landlord, to pay the rates and who is the rated occupier. I raised this point in Committee and was then told by the learned Solicitor-General that he thought the right-over of reimbursement was implied and went as a matter of course. But, I suggest that the matter is not free from doubt and that it ought not to be left in a state of uncertainty. It certainly ought not to be left in such a state of uncertainty that recourse may have to be made to the Courts to settle the question. The learned Solicitor-General was not prepared to go so far as to say that beyond all shadow of doubt his view was right. For that reason I move the Amendment. Obviously if a tenant has, entered into a contract to pay rent and rates it would be inequitable that that tenant should avoid the repayment of the amount which, in consequence of this Clause, would have to be paid by the landlord. I think it possible that, with out this Amendment, the tenant could say to the landlord when the latter asked

  1249
  for reimbursement, "No, I have nothing to pay you. It is true that I covenanted to pay rates, and I would have paid but for the action of the rating authority under Clause 11. It may be grossly immoral of me to adopt that attitude, but between myself and a person who does not commend himself to right hon. Gentlemen of the Labour party—the landlord—I am not prepared to pay."
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am doubtful as to the exact place in which the Amendment should come. The Amendment on the Paper is to come in page 14, line 42.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): The Amendment ought to come in page 14, line 42, at the end of Sub-section (8).
  Mr. RYE: I beg to move, in page 14, line 42, at the end, to insert the words
  "Any owner who in consequence of such direction as aforesaid shall have paid any rate which but for this Section would have been, payable as between the owner and the occupier by the occupier in pursuance of any contract made between such owner and occupier shall be entitled to be reimbursed by the occupier the amount so paid."
  Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. ATTLEE: It is very inconvenient to have this chopping and changing. We have an innocent Amendment put forward now, but I gather that it is really of the same substance as the extraordinarily long Amendment, full of all sorts of pains and penalties, that is on the Paper before us and is not now being moved. I am rather suspicious. I cannot decide whether the Amendment moved is laying down some thing entirely new in the legal position as between landlord and tenant, or whether it is supposed to be declaratory of the law as it now exists in order to make it perfectly plain. It docs not seem to me, in the first place, that there ought to be any possibility of this arising, because it is very unsual in a short tenancy to have agreements of this sort. Secondly, it is not at all clear as to whether in this phrase, where the owner is directed by the local authority to pay rates at 10 per cent, abatement, the tenant has then to be responsible to him for the whole of the rates.
  I do not know whether the Government propose to accept this Amendment On this Bill the House ought to have a
  1250
  little more assistance from the Law Officers. We have these Clauses and Amendments of various sorts put down, varied and sometimes put in one place and sometimes in another. Sometimes the phraseology has to be varied on the Floor of the House, apparently because the Government have not taken the trouble to put down a phrase of their own. This Amendment may or may not be desirable, but if it is desirable, sufficient warning was given to the Government because it has now been on the Order Paper in two separate forms. Could not we have a proper form of this Amendment put down in the right place. It seems to me that as this Bill goes forward the portion of it which is really the child of the Minister grows less and less and that it is becoming covered with various accretions supplied by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite until we cannot find where we are. It is a case for a full explanation from the Law Officers of the Crown.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am very glad to hear that the hon. Gentle man desires the assistance of the Law Officers, though I think on this occasion the mover of the Amendment has said all that is necessary. The Amendment which my hon. Friend put on the Paper only last night was an Amendment as to which the Government have no power. I have yet to learn that the Government have any right to prevent any hon. Member putting an Amendment on Paper.
  Mr. ATTLEE: The Amendment which we are now discussing was on the Paper some time previously.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: That is quite true, but the right time for the Government to express an opinion on an Amendment is when that Amendment is called by Mr. Speaker and is discussed in the House. At the earliest possible moment I desire to say the Government think this Amendment—although on the view which I take it is not strictly necessary—is one which may just possibly be desirable in order to avoid any doubt or ambiguity. In that spirit we propose to accept the Amendment which was formerly on the Paper, and which was taken off, I understand by some inadvertence, and replaced by the longer

  1251
  and, I think, inferior one which stood on the Order Paper to-day.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not think the lecture delivered by the Solicitor-General to the hon. Member for Lime-house (Mr. Attlee) was either required or helpful. We want to know whether this Amendment which has been on the Paper for the best part of a week, which I presume has been the subject of more or less informal discussion between the Minister and his 200 supporters who attended the recent meeting, has been considered by the Government in order that they may tell us whether it is declaratory of the law or whether it makes a change in the law. In Committee we were accustomed to hearing the hon. Member for Loughbrough (Mr. Rye) who has made more changes in the wording of this Bill than the rest of the House put together. I am not saying that all the changes he made were very profound, and I want to know if this is merely another Amendment of the Loughborough type, which makes a change in the wording but makes no other difference. What we suspect is that this Amendment involves an additional payment from the occupier. Is it the case that where occupier and owner enter into a contract this addition to the Clause permits the owner to recover the full amount of the rates which should have been paid by the occupier, although the owner himself only pays the rate less 10 per cent.?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I have already said that in my opinion the pro posed Amendment does not affect the law as it stands to-day. I think it is purely declaratory.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Much as I ad mire the legal acumen of the Solicitor-General I am not without experience of the acumen of the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye) and I would like to be satisfied that this proposal does not require the occupier to pay to the owner a larger sum than the owner actually pays to the local authority.
  Mr. RYE: The answer clearly is that the words of the Amendment are "shall be entitled to be reimbursed…the amount so paid," and the amount so paid must obviously be the rate less the discount of 10 per cent.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: With that I am quite satisfied. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] It is just as well that hon. Members should try to understand these complicated Clauses. The other question asked by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) to which we have had no answer is how this Clause can possibly be necessary. Compounding is only to take place in the case of property held on less than quarterly tenure. Clause 11 deals with property "not so defined as to include any hereditament the rent of which is collected at quarterly or any longer intervals." I cannot imagine any lease or contract between occupier and owner being drawn up under which the rent would be paid at less than quarterly intervals and ipso facto you would not be dealing with this class of property in Clause 11 and this Amendment would be unnecessary.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: I beg to move, in page 15, line 13, at the end to insert the words
  (10) For the purposes of this Section the expression "owner," in relation to a hereditament means the person who is, or if the hereditaments were occupied would be, en titled to receive the rent payable in respect thereof, or where the hereditament is occupied free of rent the person by whose per mission it is so occupied, and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof.
  I hope the House will, without any difficulty, accept the first part of this Amendment. Under the Clause as it now stands the rating authority can make the owner pay rates on any hereditament except agricultural land. In the country, as a rule, farm cottages are let with the farm and the owner has nothing to say to the choice of the tenants, and does not know when there are changes of tenancy, and the farmer can keep a house vacant if ho wishes. If the owner had to collect, it would be necessary for him to employ a man to go over a large scattered property and collect rents from various cottages, which would appear to be very hard. The practice now is for the farmer to let his cottage to his workmen at a rent which includes rates, and the farmer deducts rents and rates from the man's wages. The Amendment means that this would be continued and that the farmer would get the benefit of any rebate, while the man would not suffer in

  1253
  any way and a great deal of trouble would be saved. The concluding words of the Amendment have been suggested in the hope of clearing up the situation as regards the owner-occupier. I under stand the Minister is going to make a statement on that subject, and I hope he will be able to do something to improve the position of the owner-occupier.
  Mr. SOMERVILLE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: So far as the first part of this Amendment is concerned I think it is reasonable and I suggest that it should be accepted. With regard to the last few words the effect of these will be to exclude the owner-occupier from the benefit of the compounding allowance. On looking carefully at the Clause I see no operative effect in these words because I think he is already excluded. Sub-sections (1) and (2) pro vide as a condition of the application of the compounding allowance that rents shall be payable and collectable at least within quarterly intervals. In the case of the occupier-owner there is no rent; therefore that condition could not be com plied with and it does not seem to me that the Clause as it stand; would include the occupier-owner. Something in the nature of an appeal has been addressed to me by some of my hon. Friends behind me and by hon. Members opposite to do something for the owner-occupier. I con fess my sympathies have been rather strongly drawn towards the owner-occupier by a fact which has only come to my knowledge since the Bill came from Committee. I understand that where a local authority owns houses and receives or gives to itself an abatement or allowance as the owner responsible for the rates, it passes that allowance on to the tenant by means of a reduction in the rent. I find, therefore, that under the Clause as it stands a municipal authority owning working class houses would be in a position to pass on to the tenant the abatement of 10 per cent. which it would receive as an owner liable to pay rates and, therefore, the man who is tenant of the local authority will be to the extent of that allowance better off than the man who has saved enough money or is saving enough money to buy a house from the same authority. That seems to be loading the dice against
  1254
  the owner-occupier, and I think the existence of that difference establishes a strong claim that we should do something for him. It is obviously impossible on the spur of the moment to devise words which would carry out the wishes ex pressed from both sides of the House, but I give an undertaking that I will look into this matter with the most sympathetic desire to meet the points which have been made, and, if it is possible, I will see that some words are inserted in another place which may deal with the case.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am sure the House will be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman can discover words to meet the case of the owner-occupier. I think we may congratulate hon. Members who have been active in this matter on having achieved a substantial measure of justice for the owner-occupier. Now that we have passed the major part of Clause 11, in which we are giving these enormously and unnecessarily large rebates to owners of this class of property, it is all the more necessary that we should do justice to the owner-occupier and allow him to have the advantage arising from paying the rates himself. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to introduce words dealing with this matter and have them passed in another place, and that we may see them, before the close of the Session, as an Amendment in this Bill.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Adand-Troyte) press his Amendment?
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: I press the first part, but I do not wish to press the concluding words.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Does the reply of the Minister apply to the whole Amendment?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I in tended only to suggest that the hon. and gallant Member should leave out the concluding words of the Amendment beginning "and does not include." It will be necessary to withdraw the Amendment and move it again in the necessary form.
  7.0 P.M.
  Sir PATRICK HASTINGS: Before that is done, may I call the Minister's attention to the wording which, I think. will give rise to very great difficulty. The owner is here defined as a person who may permit the premises to be occupied.

  1255
  There must be very many cases in which permission is given to occupy a house by a person who is not the owner at all. It would be very dangerous to say that the owner of premises was the person who permitted somebody else to use the premises. I venture to think that it is very unwise to include that in the Bill as a definition of an owner. There will be many cases in which someone may go away and leave it in the hands of anyone to grant permission to various people. It is a matter which I think will give rise to great difficulty.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am very much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I would remind him that the cases are only those in which the house is occupied free of rent, but I will certainly have the matter looked into.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope in view of the matter raised by the late Attorney-General, the hon. and gallant Member will not press this Amendment. It seems extremely doubtful whether the words will not make the Bill unintelligible.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte) will move to leave out the last words?
  Amendment made to proposed Amendment: Leave out the words
  "and does not include an owner who is in occupation thereof." — [Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte.]
  Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.
  CLAUSE 12.—(Power and duty to make sufficient Rates, etc.)
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 15, line 30, to leave out from the word "authority" to the end of line 35, and to insert instead thereof the words
  "may at any time advance to the authority any sum which the authority may temporarily require and which—

  (a)they are at that time authorised to raise by loan; or

  (b)they require for the purpose of defraying expenses pending the receipt of rates and revenues receivable by them in respect of the period of account in which those expenses are chargeable:

  and the authority may pay interest at a reasonable rate on any advance so made."
  I would like to explain to the House that no Amendments were made to this Clause
  1256
  in Committee. The Amendments which I now ask the House to accept are the result of some representations that have come to me from outside this House, and also on further consideration by myself and my Department of the effect of the Clause. The Clause was designed origin ally to do away with certain anomalies which exist under the present law. Pro visions have been made to prevent local authorities omitting to levy rates for which expenditure has been incurred. There is evidently some temptation to those who are just going out of office, having incurred expenditure, to put off levying the rates which might be some what unpopular with the electors. Those provisions of which I speak had the un fortunate result that the penalties were inflicted not on those who committed the crime, but on those who had to come after and clean up the mess. The Clause was originally designed to put upon local authorities the fear of surcharge and pre vent those anomalies occurring in the future. One of the people who were left to suffer under the existing law was the treasurer. The second Sub-section of the Clause as it stands in the Bill was drafted in order to give the treasurer some relief. It seemed to us on further consider ation that we had gone a bit too far, that we had released the treasurer from perhaps responsibilities that ought to lie upon him, and the effect of my Amendments therefore is to provide that the treasurer is only allowed under the Clause to advance to the authorities any sum which the authorities may temporarily require, and which either they are authorised to raise by loan, or which they require for the purpose of defraying expenses temporarily in a period for which the rates are already received. I think, if the House will accept these Amendments, we are giving the necessary relief to the treasurer, but we safeguard local administration from possible abuse which may arise from relieving the treasurer from responsibilities which should rightly lie upon him. The subsequent Amendments are merely consequential.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: As I under stand it, the Amendment in Sub-section (2) of this Clause merely alters the powers of the treasurer to recoup him self in cases where he has had to make payments to another local authority or

  1257
  advances to his own local authority in order to meet charges incurred. The wording of the Sub-section differs from the wording in the new Clause, and I want to know whether that makes any difference. In the original Clause he was debarred from taking credit, and in the new Clause he is given powers to, at any time, advance to the authority any sum. Does that mean the same thing? When I read Sub-section (2), I thought "taking credit" meant crediting him with interest as well as recovery of the principal. That is not so. Sub-section (3) is also being altered. I should like to know whether the alteration of the wording there makes any difference. Sub-section (3) enables the local authority to levy a rate to meet the interest which it may have to pay on an overdraft. I would like to know whether the words proposed to be inserted in Sub-section (3) make any difference.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There are no words being inserted.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg your pardon. It is proposed to insert the words
  "This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day."
  I should like to know whether Sub-section (3) as it stands makes any change in the law as it exists to-day or whether it is allowing a local authority to charge to the rates something it has not been able to charge before. I should imagine that in every case the local authority would be able to charge interest as a legitimate charge on the ratepayers of the locality. If that be not so, I wonder what the position is to-day. So far as Sub-section (2) is concerned, however, there is only one further thing I want to know. Has the original Sub-section or the amended Sub section (2) been drafted in any way in connection with the recent troubles which the Ministry of Health have had with certain local authorities? Is this the result in any way of the surcharges of which we have heard so much, or is it an entirely different difficulty which has cropped up?
  Mr. SCURR: Does this apply to boards of guardians as well as to municipal authorities?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This does not apply to guardians; it only applies to municipal authorities. In reply to the question of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), this has nothing to do with recent charges. This has to do with the liability of the treasurer and his agent. It has nothing to do with any recent occurrence.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the treasurer no safeguard at all?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Oh, yes, but it is the safeguarding of the ratepayer that we are concerned about. Local authorities must not live on overdrafts. They must collect the rates for the expenditure they incur. They must not go simply borrowing money from the bank so that the ratepayers never realise what the expenditure really is, because it is not raised by rates. That is what we want to prevent. At the same time, there are circumstances in which a treasurer would very properly advance money to a local authority to meet temporary difficulties when the rates which were leviable in the period came in later in the year.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Or demands from other local authorities; precepts from other local authorities?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Or precepts from other local authorities. Sub-section (1) of this Clause deals with the local authority, and provides that the local authority must make such rates as are necessary. Sub-section (3) provides that where the loss represented by any such charge for interest or loss of interest, if it arises from failure or wilful neglect or wilful default to make or collect such rates, is to be deemed a loss within the meaning of certain Acts. I am sorry to say I made a mistake just now. I am informed this does apply to boards of guardians.
  Mr. BANKS: I should like to clear up a doubt in my mind. The Payment of Debts Act provides that the debt must be paid within the period in which it is incurred or three months after the expiration of the half-year, provided that the Minister of Health can by Order extend that period to 12 months after the date of the liability being incurred. I assume that that position is left unchanged by the present Clause?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made:
  In page 15, line 36, leave out from the beginning to the first word "any," in line 43.
  In page 15; line 43, leave out the word "such."
  In page 16, line 8, leave out the words "the above-mentioned enactments," and insert
  "Section thirty-two of the Poor Law (Amendment) Act, 1844, and Sub-section (7) of Section two hundred and forty-seven of the Public Health Act, 1875."
  In page 16, line. 8, at end, insert the words
  "(4) This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  CLAUSE 14.—(Limitation of right to appeal to quarter sessions against rate.)
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 17, line 13, to leave out from the word "list" to the end of the Clause.
  This is consequential and was made necessary by the dropping of the railway Clauses.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: This is, I think, the first opportunity we have had of discussing this matter, and I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, not in any obstructive sense, whether there is any prospect of bringing forward a "Bill dealing with the railway assessment question, which has been dropped out of this Bill. When this matter was discussed in Committee, the Government said they contemplated bringing forward a Bill dealing with the question of the assessment of railway rating specifically, and as one who approved the Clause on railway rating which was inserted in the Bill originally, and who honestly thinks that something must be done soon to meet this question, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any possibility of our counting on seeing that Bill next year, what steps the Ministry of Health are taking to get a Bill drafted, or whether the matter has to be postponed for the inquiry, which comes later. I think it is of enormous importance that we should get at this question as soon as possible, because we have a railway inquiry going on, and its bearing on this question of
  1260
  rating is of great importance. I should like to have some assurance from the Government that we shall see the Bill next year, and that there will not be the unfortunate delay which usually results from the appointment of a Select Committee.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think I can give that assurance. There is no necessity to appoint a Committee or to make any inquiry into this question, because all that we have to do is to embody in a Bill the Clauses which were removed from the original draft of this Bill. I thing the right hon. Gentleman will remember that the reason why we dropped the Clauses was simply on a question of time. We had not time to get the Bill through with the Clauses in, and it was not because there was any difficulty otherwise. It is true, however, that the Bill as originally drafted did not include provisions for the Anglo-Scottish railways, which were left over to be dealt with in a separate Bill, and, I think, now that we have got the principal railway Clauses out of this Bill, when we come to introduce a new Bill, we shall put in, as well, Clauses dealing with the Anglo-Scottish railways.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The method of arriving at the assessments will be more or less the same, I take it?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 15.—(Recovery of rates from under-tenants.)
  Mr. RYE: I beg to move, in page 17, line 10, to leave out the word "premises" and to insert instead thereof the word "hereditament."
  This is a drafting Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will accept it.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. RYE: I beg to move, in page 17, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words
  "tenant, under-tenant, or lodger,"
  and to insert instead thereof the words,
  "person paying rent in respect of that hereditament, or any part thereof, to the person from whom the arrears are due."
  The result of this Amendment, if accepted, will be that the only person on whom the rating authority can call

  1261
  for payment of these rates will be the tenant or lodger of the person in arrear, and the notice will not extend to any sub-tenant. The reason for the Amendment is this, that, as the Clause is drawn, great hardship would result in certain instances to a sub-tenant. To explain the matter to the House—the position is a little complicated—I shall have to give an example of, say, a large shop with basement in Regent Street, in the occupation of one person—call him A—who would be the rated occupier, and who would consequently be liable for the rates. That person may, and often does, sub-let a portion of the shop and basement, as a rule half of it, at an inclusive rent, and we might have a case where the subtenant, whom we will call B, finding it impossible to carry on his business on a remunerative basis in that half-shop and basement, underlets the half shop and basement at the same rent and again on inclusive terms.
  We might then find the rating authority, if A is in arrear with his rates, serving a notice on the sub-tenant B, who, having already paid his rent to A, might then find that a notice had been served on sub-tenant C, with the result that B, who had already paid rent to the landlord in expectation of recouping himself from C, would find that C's rent had been switched, by virtue of this Clause, direct to the rating authority, to the detriment of himself (B). I think the House will agree that it would be an unreasonable thing, and very inequitable, that the person, who had paid the rent to a defaulting rated occupier should be penalised by losing the rent due from his sub-tenant.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether Clause 15. as it stands or as it is amended, makes any change in the existing law, and, if not, why it is necessary to have it in the Bill?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not quite certain that I understand the point of the question. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether it makes any change in the law, and if it did, why it is necessary.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is not Clause 15, as it stands in the Bill, the law as it exists now, and if so, what is the change? Are these new powers of the local authority to deal with lodgers?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, this is a new right given by the Clause to a local authority to have recourse to the undertenant where the rates have not been paid, so that the rent due by the undertenant to the tenant may be taken in payment of the rates. I think the Amendment seems a very reasonable one, and I will accept it.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 17, line 21, leave out the words "such tenant, under-tenant, or lodger," and insert instead thereof the words "the person paying the rent."—[Mr. Rye.]
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 17, to leave out lines 27 to 32 inclusive.
  I want to understand what the position is. The proviso that I seek to omit runs:
  "Provided that the right of the rating authority to recover, receive and give a discharge for any rent as aforesaid shall be postponed to any right in respect of that rent which may at any time be vested in the superior landlord by virtue of a notice under Section six of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908."
  I do not see why that should be so. We are accustomed to giving a ground landlord prior rights in some cases, but why should he have a prior right in this case? You are giving to the local authority the right to collect rates which are in arrear from the lodger instead of from the occupier, and to give a discharge to the lodger for the rent which is due from him to the tenant of the house. Why should you refuse to give exactly the same right to the local authority when there is a ground rent on the house, for which presumably the occupier would be liable? That is to say, why do you put the occupier in the position of saying: "You must first pay your ground landlord, and then, secondly, pay your local authority"? It seems to me to be a proviso of which we on this side cannot approve.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The answer is that the superior landlord already has this right by virtue of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908. If two people are to have a right, one must have a right in front of the other, and surely the reasonable thing in such a case is that the person who has already got the right should have the prior right, and that anybody else should come in afterwards.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Surely there is no other case where the right of a landlord comes before the right of the State?
  Mr. RYE: The right hon. Gentleman opposite is a little confused, I think, as to the identity of the superior landlord. He is under the impression that the superior landlord is only a person who is in receipt of a ground rent, but in the imaginary case of the Regent Street shop which I mentioned a moment or two ago, the original person who let to A might have let to him at £3,000 a year. It would not be a question of ground rent at all. There is already a statutory right, under Section 6 of the Law of Distress (Amendment) Act, 1908, and you cannot have the two rights running together. If the right hon. Gentleman will remember what occurred in Committee, it was decided that whatever rights the rating authority might have, they ought to be postponed for existing rights under the Act to which I have referred. There is another point, and that is that the right hon. Gentleman talks about a superior landlord having priority over the State. We are not dealing with the State, but with the municipality, and there is a distinction between rates and taxes, and we know that, so far as taxes are concerned, taxes due, to the Crown have priority over other claims.
  Mr. SCURR: Surely the right of the municipality is just as great as the right of the State? This House decides on taxation then the taxes are levied for public purposes. The municipalities are exactly in the same position. Parliament has devolved upon the local authorities certain public duties. In order to carry
  them out it is necessary to levy rates, and unless the municipality can get those rates they are unable to carry out their public duties. The question has been put forward as to priority of claim. The right hon. Gentleman thought that as the landlord has had this right for a considerable time, therefore, the easiest thing was to give him prior right now. I contend that the obligations of the community ought to come before the obligations to the landlord or any other private person. For these reasons I support the Amendment.
  Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: To omit this proviso would make a person liable for rates which are not payable by him. It would bring about this result; that the property of an innocent person interested in a certain house would be taken, because some other person altogether was in default. The purpose of this proviso is this: when a man lets a whole house or building in Regent Street the man to whom he lets it is the person liable for the rates. The man liable for the rates lets the ground floor to A, the next floor to B, and the third floor to C. The man does not pay his rent. Very well. Thereupon his landlord, who is not liable for the rates at all, is able under the law of distress to require the sub-tenants to pay their rent over to him until he is satisfied. Therefore, there is no question here of giving any undue priority to the landlord as against the rating authority.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'the' in line 30, stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 129.

  Division No. 400.]

  AYES.

  [7.35 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Berry, Sir George

  Burman, J. S.

  Albery, Irving James

  Bethell, A.

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Campbell, E. T.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander, F. W.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Cassels, J. D.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Balniel, Lord

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Christie, J. A.

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Bennett, A. J.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Conway, Sir W. Martin

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Cope, Major William

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Remer, J. R.

  Couper, J. B.

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Remnant, Sir James

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Crook, C. W.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Rye, F. G.

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Jacob, A. E.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Kennedy, A. H. (Preston).

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Sandon, Lord

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Dixey, A. C.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Savery, S. S.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Drewe, C.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Duckworth, John

  Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

  England, Colonel A.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Loder, J. de V.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Smithers, Waldron

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Formoy, Lord

  Lougher, L.

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Finburgh, S.

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

  Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Fleming, D. P.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Forrest, W.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Storry Deans, R.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  McLean, Major A.

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  McNeill, Rt. Hon Ronald John

  Sudden, Sir Wilfrid

  Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Tinne, J. A.

  Gates, Percy.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Gee, Captain R.

  Merriman, F. B.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Waddington, R.

  Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Glyn. Major R. G. C.

  Moles, Thomas

  Ward, Lt.-Col A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Grace, John

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Grant, J. A.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Grotrian, H. Brent.

  Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

  Wells, S. R.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Neville, R. J.

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Hanbury, C.

  Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfieid)

  Harland, A.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  O'Connor. T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hartington, Marquess of

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Owen, Major G.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Womersley, W. J.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Penny, Frederick George

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Worthingtcn-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Wragg, Herbert

  Hilton, Cecil

  Pielou, D. P.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

  Preston, William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Radford, E. A.

  Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Raine, W.

  Thomson.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Ramsden, E.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Baker, Walter

  1266

  1267

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Scurr, John

  Barr, J

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hayday, Arthur

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Briant, Frank

  Hirst, G. H.

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Smillie, Robert

  Bromfield, William

  Hore-Bolisha, Leslie

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Buchanan, G.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Cape, Thomas

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Clowes, S.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Kennedy, T.

  Taylor, R. A.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Connolly, M.

  Lawson, John James

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lee, F.

  Theme, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Thurtle, E.

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Dalton, Hugh

  Lowth, T.

  Townend, A. E.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lunn, William

  Varley, Frank B.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Mackinder, W.

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Dennison, R.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Warne, G. H.

  Duncan, C.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  March, S.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Montague, Frederick

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Fenby, T. D.

  Morris, R. H.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Murnin, H.

  Westwood, J.

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Naylor, T. E.

  Whiteley, W.

  Gillett, George M.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Gosling, Harry

  Palin, John Henry

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Paling, W.

  Williams, David (Swansea. E.)

  Greenall, T.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Potts, John S.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Windsor, Walter

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Riley, Ben

  Wright, W.

  Groves, T.

  Ritson, J.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Grundy, T, W.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Saklatvala, Shapurji

  Mr. T, Henderson and Mr. A.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Barnes.

  Hardie, George D.

  Further Amendment made: In page 17. line 30, leave out the word "the" and insert instead thereof the word "a."- [Mr. Rye.]
  Mr. RYE: I beg to move in page 17, line 32, at the end, to insert the words:
  (2) This Section shall have effect as from the appointed day.
  (3) In this Section the expression "rent" includes a payment made by a lodger.
  My reason for moving the Amendment in this form is that in a strictly legal sense, when a lodger enters into the occupation of premises the landlord retains the exercise of a certain amount of control. Unless the manuscript words in the Amendment are adopted it might be that the rating authority would be unable to serve notice upon the lodger of a defaulting ratepayer. Under the Clause the rating authority can serve a notice upon the tenant of the defaulting ratepayer and they are also to be entitled, or they should be entitled, in fact, under the Bill they will be entitled, to serve a notice on the lodger of a defaulter, but unless these words are inserted it might be held,
  1268
  on a strict definition of the word "rent," that as a fact moneys due from a lodger were not rent and could not be obtained by the rating authority after the notice had been served.
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I propose to ask the House to accept this Amendment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Why, we have not seen it!
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: It is a very simple one. I have not seen it, but in substance the Amendment is to provide that "rent" in this Clause shall include the payment which a lodger makes to a person from whom he rents a room or rooms. I am sure hon. Members opposite desire nothing more than that the law should be as explicit as possible and free from ambiguity. I understand it is in that spirit and in that spirit only that the Amendment is moved, and in the same spirit the Government accept it.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am quite certain that it is our desire that the Bill should be as explicit as possible, but if

  1269
  it was not understood before that the rent paid by a lodger was rent, I am rather surprised.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The word "lodger" is in the Clause as it stands in the Bill, and that made it quite explicit, but an Amendment has been made which removes the word "lodger" and talks about the "person paying rent," and the word "rent" might be held not to include lodger.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: So this is merely putting into the Bill again what was in before; but that does not alter the fact that it is not explicit, as the Solicitor-General suggested it should be, because the Definition Clause has no definition of what a lodger is. Does "lodger" include a paying guest, or people who are stopping at hotels? If the Solicitor-General tells us it is our duty to make this Bill explicit, so that nobody can misunderstand it, we ought to have a definition of this mysterious and elusive lodger who comes in in one Clause and goes out in another.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 16.—(Assessment Areas.)
  Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I beg to move, in page 18, line 15, to leave out the words "therein mentioned," and to insert instead thereof the words "submitting the scheme."
  There is a slight confusion in the present wording of the Bill. This is merely a drafting Amendment.
  Mr. RYE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Government ask the House to accept the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: I beg to move, in page 18, line 17, at the end, to insert the words
  "(5) As soon as a scheme has been submitted to the Minister under this Section the council or councils submitting the scheme shall publish in one or more newspapers circulating in their area or areas a notice stating that the scheme has been so submitted and that a copy thereof is open to inspection at a specified place."
  The reason for this Amendment is that provision is made in the Bill for areas to be arranged between various local authorities. Authorities may join to-
  1270
  gether in a scheme, but these schemes may very well affect other people, and when this Clause was discussed in Committee it was felt that provision ought to be made to advertise these schemes beforehand, so that not only the parties who are putting forward the scheme but other interested parties who may be affected may have an opportunity of knowing what is proposed.
  Mr. BANKS: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: The Government will ask the House to accept this Amendment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am sorry the Government have stepped into the breach and accepted this Amendment at once. I thinks it calls upon local authorities to incur an unnecessary piece of extravagance. This Clause fixes assessment areas. Where there are county boroughs, they are the assessment area, and where there are no county boroughs then schemes are to be produced grouping the urban districts and rural districts into assessment areas. These assessment authorities have certain, but very limited, functions to perform. The authority which draws up the draft valuation list is the authority in the rural district or the urban district or the borough. In order to check the valuation as drawn up by these primary authorities there are these assessment authorities. The authority for the assessment area checks the draft list and, I think, hears objections. Even then the assessment authority is not the final authority—it passes on to the county, and then, finally, to Quarter Sessions. The assessment authority is a stage in turning the valuation into as accurate a valuation as the farmers and the landlords will allow. But it is not, as the House will observe, an important body, nor is it important that the assessment areas should be very carefully studied by all the ratepayers. The Amendment insists that the local authorities shall publish as an advertisement in the local papers the boundaries of the areas of assessment authorities, which have a merely nominal—well, not merely nominal, but trivial, function to perform in comparison with the local authorities of the various districts. I do not sup pose very many ratepayers would study the areas as laid down in these advertisements, but in any case the scheme does

  1271
  not depend upon them. It is not the ratepayers who will decide the scheme, it is the Government. The scheme goes to the Government and if the Government are satisfied that it is a suitable scheme—
  Sir K. WOOD: We have to consider representations that may be made.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: But the representations would only be made, presumably, by the interests concerned, who would know all about it without an advertisement in the local Press. I do urge the House not to put on local authorities the expense of these advertisements. Every single area would have to be described in the advertisements, and the hon. Gentleman, who throughout these Debates has shown himself to be a friend of economical and efficient administration, ought not to put his name down to an Amendment like this which will create an unnecessary expense without doing any appreciable good or helping anybody.
  Mr. SCURR: I desire to support the opposition to this Amendment, as I regard the proposal as perfect waste. The Clause as originally drafted gives to rating and other local authorities and any other interested parties the right of making representations. It is now suggested that other interested parties can only know what is being done regarding the proposed assessment areas if it is advertised in a local paper. Most of us know what the majority of local newspapers are like. Most of these cases will concern rural areas, and in the majority of rural areas, as in a good many towns, what sort of sheet is the local newspaper? It is generally something produced by someone who goes round recording the activities of Members of Parliament if they are particularly prominent in attending "free-and-easies,'' flower shows, and events of that kind, and it is also able to get a little revenue from describing local weddings and funerals, but, generally, in order to maintain itself at all, it has to rely on getting advertisements from local authorities. Look into them, and what do you find? You find that, generally, there has been issued to them from mysterious quarters in London, probably very often from Palace Chambers, various articles which are reproduced in each one of those papers as though they are the
  1272
  words of the editor himself. By these means a little gramophone Press is established throughout the whole of the country, in order that Palace Chambers may be able to tell the people that all the wisdom rests in that particular place.
  Then, in order to live, the papers try to get advertisements from local councils —an advertisement when the board of guardians desire to appoint a house porter, or when the borough council require a surveyor. Unless they get these advertisements these local papers cannot live. Now the hon. Member desires to increase their revenue. An advertisement showing what the assessment area is going to be will have to be a very detailed and a very elaborate advertisement, and the proprietor of the paper would at once have to charge special rates for this particular advertisement. On any question of local government hon. Members, when outside this House, always pride themselves on being the champions of economy, say they are the people who are out to save the rates, that they are not going to spend money under any circumstances, and that it is only the wicked Labour and Socialist people who throw money away recklessly. This Amendment will impose undue charges on local authorities, and I have much pleasure in supporting the opposition to it.
  8.0 P.M.
  Mr. SANDEMAN ALLEN: Hon. Members opposite have treated the whole question as though we were only dealing with rural areas. I speak as Member for the West Derby division of Liverpool, one of the areas which must form part of a scheme. There are a great many others, particularly in Lancashire, and it is highly important that large undertakings such as docks and other private or semi-private bodies should know what proposals are put forward. They should have the opportunity themselves of making representations so far as they as an industry are concerned. I am entirely at one with everything that has been said as to economy, but there may be occasions when economy becomes very expensive. The Amendment, I think, is justifiable, and I am glad to know it is acceptable to the Government.
  Mr. LANSBURY: It is not that we object to publicity, but there are more

  1273
  ways of getting publicity than by subsidising these rather stupid newspapers. Here, again, it is not a question of "may." We do not leave the local authority any discretion; they must advertise in these local newspapers. I do not want to repeat what my hon. Friend has just said, but I do want to reply to the hon. Gentleman opposite, and point out that a few big posters in any district will reach a much bigger public than these local newspapers. How much circulation have many of these local newspapers got? 2,000, 3,000 or 4,000, and hon. Members opposite know perfectly well that what my hon. Friend said is quite true, that what keeps these papers going is their being subsidised by the local authorities, and that is just as corrupt as being subsidised from any other source. Therefore, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some better reasons than the hon. Gentle man, whoso only argument was, "Let us have publicity." You can get the best kind of publicity on the church doors, in the post offices, and on the walls, and there are plenty of public places where quite big posters can be put up, giving the people all the information without subsidising these Tory rags that circulate throughout, the country districts.
  Sir K. WOOD: I hope the House will not attach too much importance to this Amendment, because I venture to think it is really a very small matter. It simply provides that when a scheme is about to be submitted to the Minister, it shall be made known in what, I should think, is the most appropriate place in those days. If the hon. Member will have regard to this fact, I think he will see the necessity of this provision. Before any scheme is approved by the Minister, he has to consider representations from various authorities mentioned in the Clause, and, obviously, the most convenient way of giving notice to those authorities and many other interested parties is in the Press. It is not a question of subsidising any particular party in the Press, or anything of that kind. The hon. Gentleman opposite says that some of these newspapers have a very small circulation. I hardly think he is doing justice to some of the great newspapers in the provinces, like the "Liverpool Post" and the "Manchester Guardian," which un-
  1274
  doubtedly circulate very widely indeed. Amongst the persons who are affected by this Clause, I submit it is not an unreasonable thing that due publicity should be given in what, I venture to think, is the most appropriate and the modern way. I hope hon. Members will regard this as a very reasonable proposal, which I advise the House to accept.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I do think we want to know why this is being put in in such a peremptory way considering that notice of a rate is to be given either in the public Press or on the church door. I would, first of all, like to know what is a newspaper "circulating in their area." It might be the "Sporting Times" or something of that sort which circulates all over the country, or it might be, the "Daily Herald," which goes all over the country. Would that be sufficient? I submit that where you have important schemes being made like these, the information will be inserted by the local Press as news, without the council having to pay for it as advertisement, and that you will get all the publicity you want in that way. In the previous matter it was a case in which individuals had to be notified of the rate. In this case, the people concerned are either the local authorities or certain big ratepayers, and I have never found ratepayers, such as those Dock Undertakings mentioned by the hon. Member for the West Derby Division (Mr. S. Allen), who were not sufficiently enlightened to obtain information on a matter affecting their money. I think it is quite an unnecessary expenditure that all these schemes should be published in a newspaper. If these advertisements are to be put in the newspapers in the form of a large display, it is going to be very expensive. If they are going into the "small wants" columns, they will not be read. I suggest the right way is to leave this as it was in the Bill originally, and if the local newspapers are so important, as we have been told they are, they will put in these details without any payment.
  Mr. SPENCER: I quite agree as to the value of publicity, but I would like to test the sincerity of those who approve the Amendment by asking if they are prepared to substitute the words, "in the newspapers circulating in their area." It is quite possible that in some districts,

  1275
  one could readily imagine, you would have two or three local newspapers circulating, perhaps a Labour newspaper, a Liberal newspaper, and a Conservative newspaper, and you might have a Conservative, Liberal, or Labour council, who would put it in one paper and leave it out of the other two papers. If the object of the Amendment is to give this information to the whole of the ratepayers that they may avail themselves of the information for the purpose of objecting to the scheme or making representations to the Minister, it is quite evident that all ought to have it. As this Amendment stands, the council will have the right to publish the information in any such newspaper as it likes. If a Labour council, they may put it in a Labour newspaper, and none other; if a Liberal council, in. a Liberal newspaper, and none other; or if a. Conservative council, in a Conservative paper, and none other. It is no use the hon. Gentleman shaking his head. The Amendment says "one or more newspapers." If the hon. Member desires to have full publicity without corruption, let him take out the words "one or more newspapers" and put in. the words "newspapers circulating in the area," and he will get, I am sure, a large measure of support on this side. Otherwise, I am certain my hon. Friends, as I, will vote against it.
  Sir K. WOOD: As a matter of fact, this phraseology appears in a great many Acts of Parliament. It would be very
  unfair to say what should be the newspapers chosen. Some circulate in one part of the district, and some in another. I think the authority can well be left to say in what newspapers it shall give publicity to the scheme. These words have been in many Acts of Parliament in connection with notices convening meet-tings of friendly societies and others under the Friendly Societies Act, and no difficulty has been found. I am sure the authorities can be trusted to give due publicity to the matter.
  Mr. CECIL WILSON: May I ask the Minister whether this difficulty would not be got over—because we are all agreed on the necessity for publicity—by leaving it to the areas themselves to decide as to what is the most suitable, form, by inserting words such as "shall publish in such manner as they consider most suitable"?
  Sir K. WOOD: That is, I suggest, entirely against the proposal here, as it would leave it to the local authorities to make no publication at all except in the form suggested by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), namely, the church door. I would venture to suggest that the method in the Amendment is the appropriate one, and that the local authorities may well be trusted to use it in the best possible way.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 270; Noes, 124.

  Division No. 401.]

  AYES.

  [8.14 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Albery, Irving James

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Croakshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newby)

  Dalziel, Sir Davison

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Burman, J. B.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Dixey, A. C.

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Drewe, C.

  Bennett, A. J.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Duckworth, John

  Berry, Sir George

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Bethell, A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Christie, J. A.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Clarry, Reginald George

  England, Colonel A.

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Blundell, F. N.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Fenby, T. D.

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cope, Major William

  Fermoy, Lord

  Brass, Captain W.

  Couper, J. B.

  Finburgh, S.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Fleming, D. P.

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Forrest, W.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Rye, F. G.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Little, Dr. E. Graham

  Salmon, Major I.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

  Loder, J. de V.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Looker, Herbert William

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Sandon, Lord

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Laugher, L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Gates, Percy.

  Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Savery, S. S.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Gee, Captain R.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Skelton, A. N.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Goff, Sir Park

  McLean, Major A.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Grace, John

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Somerville, A- A. (Windsor)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Willsden, E.)

  Grotrian, H. Brent.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Stanley, Hon. o. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Storry Deans, R.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Merriman, F. B.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Hanbury, C.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Harland, A.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Neville, R. J.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Waddington, R.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Hilton, Cecil

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Wells, Dr. T.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Owen, Major G.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Pennefather, Sir John

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Penny, Frederick George

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon Torquay)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Philipson, Mabel

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Pielou, D. P.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Winder-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'and, Whiteh'n)

  Preston, William

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Radford, E. A.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Raine, W.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Remer, J. R.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

  Captain Viscount Curzon and

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Major Sir Harry Barnston.

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Clowes, S.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Cluse, W. S.

  Greenall, T.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Connolly, M.

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Cove, W. G.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Baker, Walter

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Crawfurd, H. E.

  Groves, T.

  Barnes, A.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Grundy, T. W.

  Barr, J.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Batey, Joseph

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Dennison, R.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Briant, Frank

  Duncan, C.

  Hardie, George D.

  Broad, F. A.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Bromfield, William

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Gibbins, Joseph

  Hayday, Arthur

  Buchanan, G.

  Gillett, George M.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Cape, Thomas

  Gosling, Harry

  Hirst, G. H.

  1278

  1279

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Thurtle, E.

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Potts, John S.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Townend, A. E.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Riley, Ben

  Varley, Frank B.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Ritson, J.

  Viant, S. P.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Kennedy, T.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Lansbury, George

  Scurr, John

  Warne, G. H.

  Lawson, John James

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)

  Lee F.

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Lindley. F. W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Lowth, T.

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Westwood, J.

  Lunn, William

  Smillie, Robert

  Whiteley, W.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Mackinder, W.

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  March, S.

  Stephen, Campbell

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Windsor, Walter

  Montague, Frederick

  Taylor, R. A.

  Wright, W.

  Morris, R. H.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Murnin, H.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Palin, John Henry

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Mr. Hayes and Mr. T. Henderson.

  Paling, W.

  Mr. TINNE: I beg to move, in page 18, line 42, at the end, to insert, the words
  "Before a scheme is made by the Minister under this Section he shall publish in one or more newspapers circulating in the areas to which the scheme relates a notice stating his proposal to make the scheme, and that a copy of the draft scheme is open to inspection at a specified place and specifying a date by which any persons affected may send to him representations of the draft scheme."
  This Amendment is to provide for the case where a local authority has defaulted in regard to producing a scheme, and the scheme has been made by the Minister. I am not particularly wedded to the wording of my Amendment but as I understand the principle is admitted I hope the Minister of Health will see his way to accept the principle and embody it in the Bill.
  Mr. CHRISTIE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: I am not sure that the wording of this Amendment is satisfactory, but I will look into it between now and the time the Bill reaches another place.
  Miss WILKINSON: Would the Parliamentary Secretary be good enough to repeat that remark, as none of us on this side heard what he said.
  Sir K. WOOD: I informed my hon. Friend behind me that I did not think the wording of his Amendment was satisfactory, and obviously I could not accept it, but I promised him that I would look at it again between now and the time the Bill reaches another place.
  Mr. HAYES: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if, when he is looking at the wording of this suggested new Sub-section, he will bear in mind that the phrase with regard to "one or more newspapers" might be better worded? I suggest that it would be desirable to say "newspapers circulating in that area."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. SCURR: On a point of Order. I understood that permission was asked to withdraw this Amendment.
  Captain Viscount CURZON (Lord of the Treasury): May I say, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I objected to this Amendment being inserted?
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I am afraid now that the matter must be corrected in another place. I understood that the Amendment was not withdrawn. I understood the Minister to say that he accepted it, subject to correction of the wording. Anyhow, the Amendment was not withdrawn, or, if it was, I did not catch what was said. The other place is now, I understand, the proper theatre for action.
  Mr. LANSBURY: On a point of Order. Do you not think, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the condition of the Parliamentary Secretary, tired and worn out as he is, is such that we had better adjourn?
  Captain WATERHOUSE: I beg to move, in page 19, line 2, after the word "had," to insert the words
  "to the desirability of adopting existing boundaries where possible, and."

  1281
  This Clause is a very serious one from the point of view of rural district councils, and of rural districts generally. Hon. Members on the Labour Benches are apt to laugh at anything having to do with the counties, and to say that they are inhabited by farmers and landowners, of both of whom they speak with a sneer. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] We on this side do know something about the country districts. We are not in the condition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), who said yesterday that he knew the slums because he had seen them in his constituency. We know something about the country because we have to live there. We do know—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I cannot allow, on this Amendment, a long statement as to the merits of country life.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: I am sorry if I have transgressed. I feel that the merits of the countryside do need emphasising in this House. This Bill has been based on the case of town dwellers; the benefits which it gives it gives to town dwellers, and we welcome these benefits; but we who live in the country feel that we are rather left out in the case of many of its provisions. This Amendment seeks, in effect, to give a direction to the county council that, when forming their assessment areas, they shall have regard to the existing assessment areas. The existing Poor Law unions have often been assailed and have often been criticised, but in the opinion of those who have had anything to do with local government in the counties those union areas are satisfactory and do adequately serve the people who live in them, and the towns in which the union offices are situated are, generally speaking, the best possible ones from the point of view of the rate payers and from the point of the poor. We submit that at the present day, although there have been great expansions and great changes in regard to population, those towns which were large towns 100 years ago, are still large and important towns. We fear, too, that this Measure, and this Clause in particular, is going to throw local government more and more into the hands of the Department in London. Naturally, the Department in London is in favour
  1282
  of centralisation, but, although centralisation gives uniformity, it is not necessary for uniformity. I urge that the Minister can get uniformity and still leave us these great traditional areas which have served and still serve a very useful purpose in this country.
  The Minister yesterday spoke of the necessity for having close touch. It is just that close touch that I want now to emphasise. If we have three or four of these present union areas thrown into one large area, we entirely lose that close touch and become much more like the area of a county; and one knows that a county council is infinitely further away in feeling from the local inhabitants than a rural district council or board of guardians. We want that close personal touch and close personal supervision which the present areas give, and I suggest that what we need is an adjustment of boundaries rather than a reconstruction of the whole area. I am not at all wedded to the wording of this Amendment, but I hope the Minister will consider, between now and the time when this Bill comes up in another place, whether he cannot do something for us in this direction. I do not speak on behalf of any association of county councils or Poor Law unions, and am merely giving my own personal opinion, but I can say that a great deal of opposition at present existing in the counties would be quietened down if the Minister could do something towards meeting us in the direction indicated in the Amendment.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I hope that this Amendment will be accepted. The Parliamentary Secretary will see that it commits him to nothing definitely, but is only an instruction, which need not necessarily be carried out. I think, however, that it would be of very great value if this added instruction could be put into the Bill. I believe the intention, which is visible through the Bill, to alter drastically the present union areas, dates back some way into the history of the Bill. As we know from yesterday's Debate, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond) had the really astonishing hardihood to own to the paternity of this miserable foundling of a Bill, it was started here in his time some years ago.

  1283
  It was apparently begotten by him, or by some hon. Member on his side, adopted by the party opposite, and is now being foisted upon us.
  During the years which have elapsed since the Bill came into existence, conditions in the countryside have altered from what they were. When the Bill was first thought of the railways had profoundly altered the nature of the countryside, and the roads had ceased to a very considerable extent to be the main arteries of locomotion in the country. The present union areas, of course, were framed before the railways had taken that very great part in the life of the country. Within the last few years, however, since this Bill began to be thought about, we have seen a further change back, so that the roads are now once more the main arteries of life in the country, and the railway has ceased to a great extent to be the means by which people get about in the country districts. When the railways were the chief means by which people moved about in the country districts, there was a very strong case for making a wholesale alteration in the union areas, but I submit that that is no longer so, and I hope very much that the hon. Gentleman will be able to accept this Amendment, which certainly cannot do any harm, and may conceivably do some good.
  Sir K. WOOD: Perhaps I might say just a word about the paternity of this Rill. It is a good Bill, and many people, naturally, claim to be the authors of it. So far as my studies are concerned, I believe that at any rate the man who was first responsible for the main ideas in this Bill—
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I was about to call the Noble Lord (Marquess of. Harrington) to order for discussing these matters of paternity, but his remarks on the subject were not very long, and he soon passed to other matters.
  Sir K. WOOD: I very much regret that I cannot see my way to advise the House to accept the Amendment. The Clause says:
  "In making schemes under this Section regard shall he had to the population and rateable value of the rating areas which will be affected by the scheme and to the desirability that each assessment area shall have an administrative centre which is appro-
  1284
  priate for the carrying out of the work of assessment in the area and convenient for the attendance of the persons interested therein."
  Without in any way desiring to say anything against the interests my hon. Friends represent, those are really the matters to which we must have regard in making a scheme of this kind. I do not think, as suggested in this Amendment, that in making schemes under this Clause we should start off by having regard to the desirability of adopting existing boundaries. Many hon. Members will agree that we have endeavoured to meet interests which have been put forward by both my hon. Friends. I do not think it would be in keeping with the scheme and it would be holding out something which I do not think ought to be taken into account in making a scheme under this Clause if the Amendment were accepted. The Clause sets out those matters which we ought to take into consideration in considering a scheme of this kind, and while I should very much like to meet my hon. Friends, I am afraid this is not appropriate to this part of the Bill.
  Mr. SCURR: I want to assure the Noble Lord that we on this side have no desire to foist this Bill upon him and those who think with him. On the contrary, we have suggested on more than one occasion that the Government should withdraw it.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We are now talking about boundaries.
  Mr. SCURR: The Amendment seems to me to be absolutely meaningless. It is a desire to retain old boundaries, which at the time they came into existence were no doubt of benefit to the community. They represented certain local interests and, to a very large extent, owing to changes in industry and in population, these old local interests have gone. It is necessary to create new authorities. After all, it was necessary in 1834 to create new authorities under the Poor Law Reform Bill, and under this Bill we shall also have to create new authorities. Simply to stand for the old idea that because there was a boundary down a certain street or at a certain fence or a certain road is absurd. I am pleased to recognise, after all, that on this occasion the Minister has had the common sense to reject the Amendment and to stand by the Clause as it is on the Paper.
  Mr. BECKETT: I am very glad the Minister has decided not to accept the Amendment, and I hope the more reactionary Members on the other side will not insist on pressing it, because it is not going to help any kind of administration of justice. It is merely going to be a machine for perpetrating injustice. In my own town for many years we have suffered from a bite out of the middle of our territory, dating back from the days of feudalism, by a larger town on our flank, and we certainly feel that anomalies of that sort ought to be rectified.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: The hon. Member must be aware that there is abundant machinery now for altering undesirable boundaries. They are altered constantly. We are not suggesting that they should be stabilised where they are undesirable.
  Mr. BECKETT: I am aware of that, and the Noble Lord is also quite aware of the extreme difficulty and expense of getting that machinery to function where on one side you have an extremely poor town and on the other a very wealthy city. My sole object in rising to oppose the Amendment is to see that no further difficulties beyond those we already have to face are added to our task in recapturing our own property, because all the arguments we have heard from the Mover about us not being in touch with the land, meaning, I assume, having no historical sense of the importance of our townships and our boundaries, is really quite good party scoring but has very little foundation in the realities of the case. It may be quite true that we did not sell land to the railways at quite such high prices as some of the people who are in touch with the land, but that does not prevent us seeing the geographical importance of the railways and the road service and being anxious to adjust our boundaries not in accord with any old feudal considerations, but with new commercial and geographical conditions. I am glad the Government have refused to accept the Amendment, and I very much hope the backwoodsmen will not press it any further.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will not
  1286
  withdraw. I am very loth to find myself in opposition to the party behind me, but on this occasion, although I differ from them, I am "agin the Government." The fact of the matter is that I entirely agree with the arguments and the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am all for doing everything possible to retain ancient boundaries. The Noble Lord may speak for the Hartington quarter, but I am thinking of Staffordshire. There we have five Hundreds. They have existed ever since the year 700 A.D. and I really regret the way in which these old Hundreds are being broken down and we are getting instead these artificial smaller areas and different boundaries. The old boundaries of which we are speaking were laid down along the old Roman roads and old historical landmarks. They are practically dying out from our local administration, and I think it would be a great advantage if we got back to these historical boundaries when we are discussing these assessment areas. After all, the assessment area is not the area of administration. It is merely an area for selecting the committee that is to look after and check the valuation lists, and I do not see why, for a purpose such as that, we should not have the historical sense as well as the practical, political sense of the moment, They can combine on this occasion and here is, if there ever was, an opportunity for using the old Hundreds as the boundaries of these assessment committees. They will be known at once because, after all, the Hundred boundary endures in people's minds nearly as much as the county boundary. If it were merely stated that the assessment area for North Staffordshire was a particular Hundred, there would be no need for advertisements in the papers. Everyone would know the parishes included in it and the area itself would be admirably suited for exactly the purpose intended by these assessment committees. While I speak of Staffordshire, the same thing refers to most of the counties where you have the old Hundred division. What could be more suitable than that the Hundred should be the boundary for this purpose? All the difficulties about the areas would vanish by a general acceptance of the Hundred as the natural unit for valuation. The boroughs are ruled out from this consideration, because

  1287
  they have their own assessment committees, but where you have the old Hundred, that ought to be accepted as the boundary for the other areas. That would be a happy way out of the difficulty in which we find ourselves, and a happy solution for the Government. I congratulate the Noble Lord on having the historic sense.
  Mr. FENBY: I think the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has shown remarkable ability in supporting an argument which he has not had the opportunity of hearing. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on declining to accept the Amendment. I have every respect for historical traditions and boundaries, but that was not the only argument of the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment. I think he said that the County Council was not in such close personal touch as some other people he mentioned. I am very glad that the Government has introduced a Bill containing a principle which gets us away from the too-close personal touch of those whom my hon. and gallant Friend mentioned, when he said that he not only wanted a geographical boundary but personal influence at the same time.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: I said authorities.
  Mr. FENBY: That does not alter the point which I am making. I will take the word "authorities" and deal with the point. As an administrator of a public authority, may I tell the House exactly how these interests and authorities work? The authority of which I am a member bought a 300-acre farm for small holdings. One field was left to the owner who had been farming before. The authority split up the area into 50 farms of less acreage in small holdings, and built houses. When the authority came along to assess it, two men, one with 50 acres and another with 10 acres, were asked to pay as much as the owner of the whole 300 acres had paid before we took it over for small holdings. The sequel was that the one field left in the hands of the man from whom we bought the farm had not been increased in assessment by one single halfpenny. The Bill puts us on to a higher level of public interest than that. What we are concerned about is to get on to a higher and purer level of
  1288
  valuation and rating than we had with these old authorities, and I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on refusing to accept the Amendment.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am very sorry to disagree with my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. It is said that extremes meet. I have heard it said that if you scratch the extremist Socialist you will find a Tory, and vice versa. I suppose the right hon. and gallant Member has given us an example of that to-night. I do not think much of the courage of the two hon. Gentlemen opposite, in wishing to run away from an Amendment which they moved with so much vigour. I thought that, at last, we had got one of the tame pussies to stand up for something in which he believed, when I heard the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment, but, apparently, like the rest of the party, he has been well drilled, and when the time comes he will vote against his own Amendment.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: We are dealing with the question of boundaries.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am against the existing boundaries for this reason, that always when I hear speeches like those which we have heard to-night from the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment I try to visualise what it really means. In the past, the rich people have cut up the rating divisions in such a fashion as to put the burdens on the poorest of the people and themselves to go scot free. I have no doubt that for the landed interests it would be an excellent arrangement to maintain the present position of affairs. As we are arguing boundaries, why not suggest that we should go back to the old Roman province and put up another Hadrian's wall, and have that sort of area. If we are going back, let us do it thoroughly. I want to look forward and to bring into assessment rich and poor districts together. That has not been done in the past and it does not happen to-day.
  All the. trouble in London has been caused because the people represented by the party opposite cut up London into 28 distinct boroughs, and tried to impose on each borough the business of attending to its own life, apart from ail the rest. Every one of the arguments that we have heard to-night are exactly

  1289
  the same kind of arguments that were used to put the East End into the plight it is in now. It is the old idea of looking after old traditions. I have heard people in Bow talk about the privilege of maintaining traditions, and so on. When the traditions are starvation and poverty, I do not want to maintain them at all. This Amendment is typical of the same well-to-do people in this country who want to preserve the old arrangements whereby there are compartments for the rich and compartments for the poor.
  Mr. ATTLEE: This seems to me an extraordinary valueless Amendment, and I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary has found it in his power to resist something, at last, for hitherto he has been overloading this Bill with one sort of declamatory statement or another. This Amendment provides that when they are framing their new boundaries, if they can find an old boundary that is suitable they must keep it. That is, obviously, a sensible thing to do.
  Captain WATERHOUSE: Hear, hear; but they will not do it.
  Mr. ATTLEE: No doubt my hon. and gallant Friend is better acquainted with the personnel of the County Councils in rural areas than I am, and I gather that he has a lower opinion of their intelligence than I have. It may he that in Staffordshire they will go back to the old Hundreds mentioned by my right hon. and gallant Friend, but I could point out districts where there should be some adjustment, for instance, on the borders of Gloucestershire and Worcestershire. I hope they will not have regard to the existing boundaries there. Where there are old boundaries which are the best, I presume that they will keep to those boundaries. If not, they must have a better personnel on the council, if they cannot trust those who are on them now to do the sensible and obvious thing.
  Amendment negatived.
  CLAUSE 17.—(Assessment Committees.)
  Major RUGGLES-BRISE: I beg to move, in page 19, lines 26 and 27, to leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."
  Sub-section (5) on page 20 provides for two persons who are commissioners for the general purposes of income tax being
  1290
  appointed on the Assessment Committee. It was decided in the Committee stage that the revenue officers should be deleted from the Bill as originally drafted, and this Amendment is consequential on the dropping of the revenue officers from the Bill, and the three Amendments which follow this are equally consequential.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: I am happy to advise the House to accept this Amendment, as the revenue officers have been deleted from the Bill in the Committee stage.
  9.0 P.M.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I advise the House not to accept this Amendment. My advice is based upon the sound advice of the hon. Member now in charge of the Bill. When the Bill was introduced it included not only the Commissioners of Income Tax, but also the revenue officers. We shall have an opportunity later on of demanding the reasons which actuated the Government in eliminating the revenue officers, but why we should eliminate the Commissioners of Income Tax I fail to understand. It is true that the Commissioners of Income Tax, if they are on the Assessment Committee, may bring into the assessment roll of the area some hint on the valuation for Schedule A of the Income Tax. That is precisely what we want. We want to see that the valuation is an accurate valuation, and therefore a whole valuation, and therefore linked up with that central valuation which the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) rightly slated was the object of the Labour party in all valuations. If we cannot get a central valuation, if we cannot get the revenue officers to keep the local valuation committees up to scratch, let us at least retain the assistant commissioners of Income Tax, who do know approximately what is the value for Income Tax purposes, and who will bring the Treasury mind to bear on these local valuations. I know the objection of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, and of hon. Members opposite, to any hint of central control of the valuation. I know that they object to the Treasury valuing, they object to the revenue officers advising the committees,

  1291
  and they object to these commissioners being there but their objection is our reason for urging that a check should be kept upon the valuation. There should be some sort of co-ordination of these valuations, something approximately fair between one district and another, and particularly between one class of ratepayers and another. If these words go out Sub-section (5) becomes of no effect, and for that reason I beg the House to register in the Lobby their disapproval of this proposal, as one further effort to riddle the Bill as originally introduced and reduce the valuation which will now be produced by this Bill to an absolute farce.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Any of us who have sat on assessment committees will agree that the great difficulty which we always had was to find some line on which we could deal in an equitable manner with all the persons who came before us. Any man who has ever sat on an assessment committee will agree that the one man who comes there independently, with no axe to grind, is the representative of the Inland Revenue. The hon. Member for South Poplar (Mr. March) will agree with me that the representatives of the Inland Revenue are the one set of people who have given us great assistance, when we have had them, in finding out what we required to know. There are occasions when you have very tricky people in London, and very clever lawyers arguing for them, and it is very useful to have someone who is absolutely independent to deal with them. I do not know why hon. Members should object. Personally, we are in favour of a national system of valuation, safeguarding what we regard as the interests of different people by persons who are absolutely independent of all local influences and interests. But short of that I think that it is a most excellent provision to have these representatives of the Inland Revenue, and the Income Tax people, and the hon. Member sins against the light of his own experience in accepting an Amendment of this kind.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN:In view of the reference to the General Commissioners of Income Tax, it is time that someone should inform the House what their functions are. The two last speakers have alluded to the General Com-
  1292
  missioners of Income Tax as servants or representatives of the Inland Revenue.
  Mr. LANSBURY: No.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: No.
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I believe that those are the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). I think the House will have gathered that, from what has been said. As a General Commissioner of Income Tax, I would point out that the functions and duties of a General Commissioner are to hear appeals and to stand between the taxpayer and the Inland Revenue. The idea of including them was if and when the Revenue officer was a member of the body to which they would also be parties, but as the Revenue officer has ceased to be a figure under the Bill, the General Commissioners of Income Tax have no longer a function to perform. That slight explanation may put right some of the doubts which hon. Members have expressed.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: While we have been hearing during the past few days of the various interests that ought to be preserved and oared for, and of the general honesty of overseers and members of assessment committees, the wonderful function they have performed in the past, and so forth, my experience, at least as a member of one authority, is that it has been the tradition never to permit a member of the party to which I belong to become a member of the assessment committee, and if only for the purpose of safeguarding the interests of the unrepresented it seems to me that the two Commissioners from the Income Tax Department, or from any Department, who would view the problem of assessment from an impartial point of view, would indeed be a safeguard for the whole of the ratepayers in the districts that have no representation at present. I am referring to an authority where perhaps half a dozen men represent a greater rateable value than do 26 members sitting on that same local authority, but because of the numerical strength of certain representatives the people who come from the thickly populated areas have never got representation on the assessment committee. The assessment committee consists of

  1293
  representatives of colliery companies, of land-owning interests, and of private interests in every sense, and the urban population get no representation at all. It is fair to say that there is a great deal of mistrust of the existing assessment committees, and that if a safeguard were inserted or retained in the Bill it would
  create more confidence in many areas. For that reason the Government ought not to accept the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 290.

  Division No. 402.]

  AYES.

  [9.10 p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Slesser, Sir Henry H.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hayday, Arthur

  Smillie, Robert

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hayes, John Henry

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Baker, Walter

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Barnes, A.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

  Barr, J.

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Batey, Joseph

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Beckett, John (Gateshead)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Broad, F. A.

  John, William (Rhondda West)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Bromfield, William

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Taylor, R. A.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Buchanan, G.

  Kennedy, T.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Cape, Thomas

  Lansbury, George

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lawson, John James

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Clowes, S.

  Lee, F.

  Thurtle, E.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Connolly, M.

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Townend, A. E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lowth, T.

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lunn, William

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dalton, Hugh

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Mackinder, W.

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Warne, G. H.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  March, S.

  Watson. W. M. (Dumfermline)

  Dennison, R.

  Montague, Frederick

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Duncan, C.

  Morris, R. H.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Murnin, H.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Fenby, T. D.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Weir, L. M.

  Gillett, George M.

  Palin, John Henry

  Westwood, J.

  Gosling, Harry

  Paling, W.

  Whiteley, W.

  Graham. D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Potts, John S.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Greenall, T.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Williams, David (Swansea. E.)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Riley, Ben

  Williams, T. (York Don Valley)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Ritson, J.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Groves, T.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Windsor, Walter

  Grundy, T. W.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wright, W.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Scurr, John

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.

  Hardie, George D.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Henderson.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cassels, J. D.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Blundell, F. N.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Albery, Irving James

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Christie, J. A.

  Apsley, Lord

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Cope, Major William

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Couper, J. B

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Burman, J. B.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Bennett, A. J.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Berry, Sir George

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Bethell, A.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Campbell, E. T.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Hudson, R. S (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Dixey, A. C.

  Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Drewe, C.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Duckworth, John

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Rye, F. G.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Salmon, Major I.

  Elveden, Viscount

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  England, Colonel A.

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Erskine Lord (Somerset Weston-s.-M.)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Sandon, Lord

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Savery, S. S.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Loder, J. de V.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Fielden, E. B.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Finburgh, S.

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Skelton, A. N.

  Fleming, D. P.

  Lougher, L.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Forrest, W.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Smithers, Waldron

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Macintyre, Ian

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  McLean, Major A.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Stott, Lieut. Colonel W. H.

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Gates, Percy

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Gault Lieut.-Col Andrew Hamilton

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Sugden Sir Wilfrid

  Gee, Captain R.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Margesson, Captain D.

  Thomson. F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Goff, Sir Park

  Meller, R. J.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Grace, John

  Merriman, F. B.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Grant, J. A.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Vaughan Morgan, Col K. P.

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Moles, Thomas

  Waddington, R.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Neville, R. J.

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Hanbury, C.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Harland, A.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Wells, S. R.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Hartington, Marquess of

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Owen, Major G.

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Pleiou, D. P.

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

  Pitcher, G.

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Preston, William

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Radford, E. A.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Raine, W.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Ramsden, E

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Remer, J. R.

  Stanley.

  Mr. ATTLEE: I beg to move, in page 19, line 27, after the word "persons," to insert the words "being members of such council."
  This Amendment is designed to get persons on the assessment committee who
  1296
  shall be elected persons responsible to their constituents. In this Clause every possible endeavour has been made to get nominees instead of elected persons. The assessment committee is to consist of a number of persons who are to be

  1297
  appointed by the council of the borough —there is nothing to say that they shall be elected members—and some of them are to be appointed to represent boards of guardians—again there is nothing to say that they shall be elected members— and. finally, not less than one-fifth are quite definitely to be persons who are neither members of the council of the borough nor members of any "such board of guardians as aforesaid." To anyone who followed the discussions in Committee it was quite illuminating to find the extraordinary distrust of elected persons exhibited by Members of the party opposite. Most of them had a wonderful invention which they were constantly bringing forward known as "the independent man." He was a figment of the imagination, like "the economic man." I tried to trace him down and to find out his characteristics. I found that when a distinguished industrialist talked of "the independent man," he meant an industrialist, and when the landowner talked of "the independent man "he meant a landowner. I suppose if we had had a licensed victualler there he would have said that "the independent man" must be a licensed victualler. The man who was regarded as "the independent man" by various hon. Members was in every case the man whom they thought friendly to the particular interests which they represented.
  The object of this Amendment is to try to restore the important function of assessment to elected representatives. Of course it will be said "Why trouble about this? The council are to appoint and they will appoint people of the same colour as the council, and a Socialist council will appoint Socialists." It may be so, but we are not dealing with that particular point. What we contend is that these members should be responsible to the electorate. They should be elected first. We do not wish them to be appointed from outside and not answerable to the electors for their actions. I had hoped that we had departed from that system in local government with the passing away of ex-officio guardians and that we were trusting more and more to election. The proposed constitution of these committees is one of the biggest insults ever offered to our great cities and it must go very much against the grain of the right hon. Gentleman in charge
  1298
  of the Bill to have such an insult flung at such a great city as Birmingham which is a county borough. While the council, even of Birmingham, may appoint a number of persons one quarter must represent boards of guardians and one-fifth must be neither members of the council of the borough nor of the boards of guardians. Thus only a bare majority is left even when the appointments are made by the Birmingham City Councils.
  That surely docs not represent the considered opinion of an eminent municipal administrator like the right hon. Gentleman. It represents a concession wrung from him by those whom I can hardly describe as his supporters. I should lather call them his rural coadjutors, or perhaps I should say masters. The result is that instead of getting a responsible committee we are getting a committee on which there need not be a single representative who has come before the electors, or who is answerable to anybody except at second hand to the council or the boards of guardians. I am not making; any great point as to the representation of the boards of guardians because we understand that the right hon. Gentleman, pace his coadjutors on those benches, is going to kill the boards of guardians next year, and their representatives will no doubt disappear. What I am objecting to is that these persons indicated in the Clause should merely be "appointed persons," and my Amendment is that these appointed persons should also be members of the council. I believe by that means we would secure experienced persons. We shall probably have the argument trotted out again that members of a spending authority should not be on an assessment authority. There is nothing in that as a matter of fact, because in the midst of a great deal of muddled history that we had yesterday from two hon. and learned Members was an entire ignoring of the fact that a borough to-day can, if it choose, make its own valuation, and does in many cases. This represents an attack on democratic self-government introduced by those who have never been really in favour of representative government and who endeavour in every possible way to try to keep this very important committee in the hands of a small group of mainly interested persons.
  Mr. RILEY: I beg to second the Amendment. In doing so may I empha-

  1299
  sise the point put by my hon. Friend who moved it in order to underline it for the consideration of the House. As the Clause now stands there need not be a single representative of a municipal council upon an assessment committee. When the Minister presented the Bill in the first instance it provided that it was upon the councils that should rest the responsibility of assessing and valuing property for rating purposes. He has had to give way, and so now we have a Clause which completely defeats—I want to emphasise this point—the very purpose the Minister had in view. What were the main principles of the Bill as presented in Committee? One of them was that for the future the responsibility for assessing property for local expenditure should be placed upon those responsible public bodies such as town councils, urban district councils, popularly elected and responsible to the people, councils charged under the various Acts of Parliament since 1834, under the Municipal Corporations Act, with carrying out great expenditure on public health, public highways and, later, upon education. Having to raise these sums lor the great cities in enormous amounts, and still to visualise that with the growth of the municipalities the duty not only of having to spend the ratepayers' money, the duty of assessing property and in regard to valuation should rest with the publicly-elected bodies. The Minister has given way. We now have a Clause which gives municipal councils no definite lead that they are to be the assessment authority at all. May I remind the House that as the Clause now stands, it means that you may have, for the sake of illustration, as assessment committee of 16 persons in assessment areas of a great municipal authority of a county borough. According to this Bill as it now stands, that county borough may, if it is prepared, appoint nine persons on that assessment committee from its own council. As a matter of fact it need not appoint one. This Clause allows the council to appoint outsiders. It may appoint the whole 16, if it thinks proper to do so, not one of whom would be elected by responsible ratepayers. That is a travesty of modern representative government. It may appoint nine out of 16. On the other hand, under this Clause they must have not less than four mem-
  1300
  bers from the guardians. They may have six guardians and fewer councillors. They must have at least one-fifth from persons who are neither members of the council nor of the guardians, which means that the very best a council can do in discharging its responsibility to the ratepayers under this Clause is to have nine out of 16. You can take 32 if you like, but take a committee of 16. The Bill says, you must have one-fourth representative of the guardians, not less than one-fifth neither guardians nor councillors. I submit you get seven, therefore, as a minimum number, and you cannot have more than nine out of 16. Our Amendment seeks to embody in the Bill that the persons appointed must be members of the council, so we are safeguarding the rights of the council. I hope the House will accept the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: This matter was the subject of a great deal of consideration and discussion in the Committee which considered this Bill, and I venture to suggest that the aim of most members of the Committee who took part in the discussion was to secure the best kind of committee for the particular purposes of the Bill. In the final arrangement which was made, and which appears in this Clause, it will be seen that the council of the borough are to appoint a certain number of persons to form an assessment committee. The only obligation upon them is that one-fourth of them should be appointed to represent the board of guardians, and one-fifth should be persons who are neither members of the council nor members of the board of guardians. I will immediately take the point about the guardians. There is nothing here which will prevent any borough council nominating members of the boards of guardians themselves. In other words, they can, and I dare say would, nominate members of the board of guardians who. in their turn, have been elected to the position. As regards the one-fifth, it was considered in Committee that it would be a very useful thing that the borough councillors themselves should be able to appoint to those committees people who had experience, but who had not of necessity had to go in for elections of various characters, and contribute their advice and help to a committee of this kind. I venture to say that is not an unreasonable view to take up with regard

  1301
  to a committee of this kind. If Members will look at page 63, they will see the proviso:
  "The terms of office of each member of an assessment committee shall be such period not exceeding five years, as the body of persons by whom that member is appointed may determine."
  In other words, if the particular borough council desires to keep authority over its assessment committee, it must appoint for a particular period within the terms of that provision. Hon Members just now were saying there was an attack upon borough councils in this connection, but I venture to say that borough councils can be trusted to make the necessary appointments under this Clause. If we believe in local government and in democracy, as hon. Members opposite would have us believe, we can trust these particular councils to appoint suitable people to perform these functions. With regard to the Amendment, it would mean, if carried, that boards of guardians would have no representatives as such on these committees.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I think the hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting the position.
  Sir K. WOOD: Why this particular part of the Clause was included, namely, "not less than one-quarter shall be persons appointed to represent the boards of guardians," was to ensure that people who had had experience in that form of local government so closely connected with the work of assessment committees should be certain to have representatives on those bodies.
  Mr. ATTLEE: There is nothing to say they must be guardians, and they might know nothing about it.
  Sir K. WOOD: If these borough councils have the right of appointing representatives of the boards of guardians, I think we must trust them sufficiently to think that they will, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, appoint members of the boards of guardians themselves, and in fact, as my right hon. Friend the Minister reminds me, they have to be nominated by the boards of guardians, and there need be no hesitation as to the type of men who will be appointed to represent the guardians. Therefore, under this Clause, we do ensure—I do not know
  1302
  whether hon. Members opposite desire us to ensure—definite representation to the boards of guardians of the country, and I venture to say that that is a right and proper thing to do and that it will assist in getting a good committee in this connection. I think a good many people to-day will agree with the view that there are a number of men up and down the country who, perhaps, may not care to go through the rough and tumble of a contested election, but who nevertheless have had a good deal of experience, and I am ready to admit that some provision should be made for persons of that kind to serve on these committees. The great thing we have to keep before us in forming a body of this kind is to get the best body we can and to get as many interests represented as we can. [Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members opposite should laugh. I do not know why interests should not be represented, especially interests of the character mentioned here, and I ask the House to reject the Amendment and to retain in the Bill the Clause, which I believe, under the arrangements which are there made, will secure the best kind of authority for dealing with this important work.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I think the hon. Member is mistaken as to the scope of the Amendment. The Amendment says that those people who are nominated by the borough council shall be members of the borough council, and I should imagine that in most cases they would be so, but his argument is that it would be desirable that they should nominate people not of their own members. He thinks you would get a. better representation on the assessment committee if they were people who were not to be held responsible to the electors of the borough. I differ from him, but our difference is constitutional. He believes in the advantage of having people in positions of this sort who cannot be called to account by the electors. That is the undemocratic point of view. We believe that it is an advantage and a better scheme to have men on all responsible bodies who can be called to account. Human nature being what it is, if you want to prevent interests looking after their interests instead of looking after the public interest, you have got to have men who can be called to account.

  1303
  The whole advantage of Parliament over an autocracy is that we can be called to account. The one check upon human nature is the fear of the consequences. It stiffens our conscience and strengthens our rectitude to know that we can be called to account, and I think we should apply that principle to these assessment committees even more certainly than we should apply it to Members of Parliament, because these members on the assessment committees are in a semi-judicial position, and, therefore, it is far more important that they should be called to account in the public interest than that they should find themselves in these more or lees judicial positions accountable only to their own interests or to the interest in which they have been put there. It is an old controversy. It has gone on ever since we started any form of government by representation at all, and I should have said that the wisdom of the ages and the traditions of this country ought to have directed the hon. Member towards pinning his faith to democracy and responsibility, and avoiding the dangerous pitfall that has always been present to every person who wants to administer efficiently, of accepting the idea that you can select the man, and that once he is selected he will live up to your expectations, whereas the only way to make him live up to the principles of the public interest is to see that the public have the opportunity of calling him to account at elections.
  Commander WILLIAMS: The right hon. Member for Nowcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has apparently been called to account in the last few minutes By the leader of his party, who has been in here for such a short time, because apparently he has now at last come back to the idea that the elected representative is a first-class institution. Only a few minutes ago he was pointing out to the House the wonders and the benefits of the Commissioners of Income Tax, of whom I have never yet heard as elected representatives in any way whatever. I am glad to see that he has been reformed by his eminently worthy leader, who has been able to call him to heel so quickly and definitely for once in his life, but my object in rising is really not to deal with the nice little essays we have had from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen
  1304
  opposite on democratic institutions, because, after all, we all know what they mean by it. It is very nice when it suite them, but they get up and say something else when it does not.
  My real object is to try to elicit from the Government—I do not think I have interfered with them very much on this Bill, and I have voted fairly often for them—what is actually going to happen eventually to the boards of guardians. If, as I understand, we are going to have one-quarter of this body selected from boards of guardians, there seems to be a sort of understanding that sooner or later the boards of guardians shall disappear, and when that happens—whether it is right or wrong, I am not arguing at the present moment—what are you going to put in their place? We might, after all, have had an answer to that question. If we are to legislate in this way, and we are putting them in for three years—or whatever the time may be—I think while we are taking up time with this Measure, it is rather a pity, when we are building up these committees, that we should not endeavour to make them valuable public institutions.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I want to point out that the reason we object, as we did in the last discussion, was because we knew it was going to be co-operation. If we had a list of the persons that were going to be put on the committee we might consider it, but in doing what is proposed to-night in this Clause we really are going back. I do not quite understand the Parliamentary Secretary taking up the attitude he has taken on the subject, because he knows perfectly well that the present arrangement in London—and this Bill may some day apply to London—by which the council elects the valuation committee and the assessment committee has worked extremely well. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The Parliamentary Secretary knows that the arrangement has worked extremely well in London. I cannot for the life of me understand why you should want to have some of the committee from outside. It is suggested that hon. Members opposite want to bring in people of experience. Experience of what? In owning property or in having some vested interests? I should like to know. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I will sit down if some hon. Member will get up and tell me who is

  1305
  the person. It is not the labourer you are thinking of. Of that I am certain! It will be the people certainly who are interested in property. If you are going to put up a committee to deal with the assessments, or any other public work, and if you desire to get that work done properly, there is only one way of doing it; that is to have people responsible to the electors. It has been suggested that we are not trusting the councils. The difficulty is that if you say that the councils shall elect from the outside, well, they are bound to go outside, and they are limited to the number of people that can be called upon, certainly from the working class ranks to do this kind of work. You are just overloading the assessment committee with people who will have—I do not like to use the term "vested interests"—but a very considerable interest of that which will come up for assessment.
  I want further to say this: That there are too many of this kind of committees set up—these kind of mixed committees of elected and non-elected persons. I do not believe any one of them works really satisfactorily. In London we have got a sort of hybrid body managing the docks, and they manage them in a perfectly unsatisfactory manner. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, in quite an unsatisfactory manner. [An HON. MEMBER: "Everybody knows it!"] Everyone at the East End, where the docks are, knows that they are worked in an unsatisfactory manner. We have no power over that authority because it is very largely made up of co-opted members. I am surprised at the action of the Parliamentary Secretary, and of the Minister himself. I should think that when the right hon. Gentleman gets back to Birmingham he will be very severely reproached for not trusting the elected representatives of the city in a matter of this kind.
  Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: It has been stated that certain of us on this side seem to be lacking in trust of the local authority, but surely that is a vague charge. At the present time the assessment committees are, I think, elected by the boards of guardians from their own members. Therefore why should you make this departure when you are re-arranging the machinery? Surely the principle of representative government is a sound one!
  Captain BOURNE: I represent in the House a county borough, and I sincerely hope the Government will stick to their attitude on this Amendment. It seems to me that the argument of the other side is to the effect that you cannot trust the people elected by the local people when it comes to the exercise of their own discretion. There is nothing after all in this Clause which will prevent a county borough nominating members of their own council to act as the assessment committee. I cannot see why they should be prevented from nominating some members out-side if they think fit to do so. I myself believe that in the matter of the local government carried on in the counties, we should interfere as little as possible with the discretion of the councils.
  Mr. SPENCER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has put forward the Amendment has based his case on two grounds. First, on the ground of efficiency, and secondly, that the council is the best body to elect these assessment committees. I think that is fairly stating the position. One would have had a very great deal more faith in any future assessment committee that may be set up if in the past the only guiding principle in regard to the assessment committee had been the question of efficiency. Everybody knows that up till now, whether labour men have been efficient or not, they have had the utmost difficulty in getting on to an assessment committee. If in the past that has been the position, and efficiency has not been the first consideration, but party interests, what guarantee have we, if this Clause goes through as it is, that we will get anything like fair representation upon these new committees that have got to be set up? I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that whether it is a Labour council, a Conservative council, a Liberal council, or a mixed council, the first consideration certainly should be efficiency in the people who are going to discharge the functions of the committee.
  Great care, after all, should be taken to see that all interests, more of a political character than of a trade character, should be represented upon the committee. There is not a single thing in this Clause, if it passes, which will give us any guarantee whatever that these party

  1307
  interests are going to be represented. I would, in a minute, if the question were put to me: "Would you have fair representation upon these committees where you have got a purely Labour body, immediately say "No." I think it is in the interests of fair government, of pure government, that so far as humanly possible upon committees of this character you should get the widest and best possible interest you can. I would deprecate members of the assessment committee being all Labour men. Equally would I deprecate all of them being Conservatives. It is because I want to see upon these assessment committees representatives of the whole body politic that I feel certain this Amendment ought to have been accepted. I know the answer will be that, in effect, there is no difference between a council electing its own members and appointing persons from outside. I quite agree that the argument is against us there, because if it is a Conservative council it can, if it likes, appoint Conservatives from outside the council just as well as appointing Conservatives who are on the council; but what we have to remember is that there is nothing the British electorate detests more than finding that a man who has stood for municipal honours, and has been rejected, has been co-opted on to a committee. Very often one finds on the education committee and on other committees men who have been turned down by the electorate but have subsequently been co-opted. Take the case of two persons in a district, Conservatives if you like. One will be elected and the other will be unable to secure election, do what he will, because the people will not have him—even the Conservatives will not have him. Nevertheless, he is afterwards found upon a certain committee. Everybody resents that practice, and if the Bill goes through in its present form, with a council having the right to co-opt men from outside upon the assessment committee, we shall be forfeiting the confidence of the very people whose confidence we ought to seek to retain.
  I feel certain we are doing the wrong thing, because, as the Clause will stand, there need not be a single man on the committee who is a member of any public body. The representatives of the guardians on that committee need not be
  1308
  guardians, for the guardians can appoint from outside. We might have an assessment committee made up of persons none of whom have been publicly elected. I do not think that is a proceeding which ought to be supported by this House. We ought to see to it that on any statutory committee there are at least a very substantial number of people who from time to time come before the public seeking their confidence. I understand from my Scottish friends that in Scotland this principle is part of the law, that there all members of assessment committees have to be publicly elected. If that is a sound and fair principle for Scotland, it should be good for the whole of the British Isles.
  Mr. MARCH: The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health said there was a good deal of discussion on this point in Committee, and that is quite true; but when the Bill was presented to the Committee it contained points which we are desirous of having in now. At that time the Bill proposed that the members of these committees should be elected members of the local authority, but that did not suit the friends or supposed supporters of the two Ministers on the Treasury Bench, and, in consequence, they had to retract. It was because there was a large amount of discussion in Committee that the representatives of the gentlemen on the other side brought pressure to bear upon those in charge of this Bill, who have had to give way. They have tried as far as possible to hoodwink the House of Commons by putting the words in such a way that they can now say that the councils and the boards of guardians can, if they like, appoint members of their own body on the committee. Let us be honest about it, and insert words stating plainly that the persons appointed are to be members of the council or the boards of guardians, and then the local authorities will know exactly where they are.
  10.0 P.M.
  That, however, does not suit hon. Members on the other side. They have had to give up the overseers, and think they will have something in their place. They are so confident that the overseers have always been so honest and honourable in doing what is right, that they are now seeking to secure the insertion of words "the council may nominate" and "the board of guardians may nominate."

  1309
  Nominate whom? People of experience, we have been told. I suppose they want to get back the overseers under another name, because they are the people who have had all the experience on these assessment committes in the country in the past, and I suppose they are the people who will come back on to these assessment committees if the Bill goes through in this way. I am quite certain that the Minister himself does not approve of this, because London has now worked for 26 years with assessment committees composed of elected members of the councils, and there has not been a great deal of worry and trouble amongst the people about being over assessed. If any of them have come forward with complaints they have always had the fullest opportunity of coming before the assessment committees.
  In our borough we have had the assessment committees sitting day after day. The valuation list was made and was posted, and then people who thought they were over-assessed came before the assessment committee and presented their arguments, or had representatives to place their case before the committee. Their complaints have been considered, and I say here and now that ever since assessment committees have been formed in London, people have had every opportunity of coming before them, and most of them have gone away very well satisfied. I should say that we have had fewer appeals than any borough in London. I do not see why the London practice in regard to these committees should not be extended to the provinces, but the fact is that the landlords and the landowners and the Farmers' Union— [Interruption.] I was reading a paper the other day in which the Farmers' Union were gloating over what their members had been able to do in connection with the Ministry and with this very Bill—the points they had been able to gain in the interest of the farming community. If they say that in their own paper, they have got it in their own minds that it is going to be all right. I hope the House will support the Amendment.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: Possibly I ought to apologise, as a Scottish Member, for intervening in an English Debate, but this House of Commons having refused Home Rule to Scotland I really do not
  1310
  think any apology is needed for taking part in the discussion. I would not have done so but for a reference made by the hon. Member for the Broxtowe Division (Mr. Spencer) to the Scottish example. I am surprised at the statement of the Under-Secretary for Health that there are a large number of men up and down the country who, while they are not prepared to face the hurly burly of a local election, are, nevertheless, extremely able men for the work of these committees. But may I remind the hon. Gentleman that that ought not to stop at assessment committees? Why not apply it to the Cabinet? As a matter of fact, it is not good logic at all. If a person comes here or goes on a public authority, there is no action that he takes on that body for which he ought not to be held responsible. We have had the working of valuation committees in Scotland for a considerable number of years. In the Glasgow Town Council, a body of which I was a member for over four years, the valuation committee is entirely composed of members of the Town Council, and the experience there is that that body works as well as any other body could possibly do. After all, the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) is correct in saying that this business of co-opting Members is really not meant to suit Labour, but it is due to the fear that Labour might capture certain of those places.
  I know the Parliamentary Secretary may say that they can elect whom they like, but the board of guardians can have along with their own number a reactionary group. Moreover, an elected person who goes on to an assessment committee only goes on for three years, but the non-elected person goes on for five years. The Parliamentary Secretary may dispute that, but that is my understanding of it. If that be wrong, I shall be glad to hear from the Minister of Health, who can speak with authority or. this particular Measure. This has worked well for a long number of years in Scotland, and it is an example. I do not see why we should have all the privileges, and not extend them to this country, and I hope that English Members will certainly press this fundamental principle and necessity. It may be that an assessment committee may be bad, but if the democracy cares to elect bad people, it ought to suffer. I suppose

  1311
  hon. Members opposite will say, "Look what your constituency returns!" But it is relative. What may be bad to me may be good to some other person, or vice versa. If on the public health authority, and many other important bodies, only elected persons are allowed to interfere in those matters, the same principle ought to be extended to the valuation committee. I hope hon. Members on this side will keep up the pressure on the Government, because I looked at the original Bill 10 minutes ago, and I found that it contained this proposal. Why was it dropped? No reason has been given to-night. It may have been because of pressure by agricultural Members or landlords. I would hardly think, even with my opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary, that he would give way to agricultural pressure. An hon. Friend suggests that it might have been done when he was not looking, but, apart from that, there is no adequate reason why we should depart from the principle, and I hope at least Members on this side will press this to a Division.
  Mr. SCURR: Throughout the whole of the Debate on this Measure, we have seen on the opposite side a continuous distrust of the elected person. At the very beginning of the Report stage, when an Amendment was moved by the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley), the argument he was putting forward all the time was in regard to the authority being the spending authority, and he contended that was the wrong principle. If there be any validity in that argument, we ought to got rid of all valuation committees, and put the matter, not in the hands of local authorities, but in the hands of skilled professional valuers, who would be in every sense of the word independent. But the Government do not do that. They now propose a Clause which will allow any number of persons, who have never under any circumstances faced the electors, of whom the electors know nothing at all, to do this very particular and important work. I am very much astounded at a Conservative Government resisting this Amendment.
  Reference must be made again to the position of London. After all, the Metropolitan Borough Councils were estab-
  1312
  lished by the London Government Act, which was brought in and passed by a Conservative Government. That Act took it away from the Boards of Guardians, except in one or two instances where the Union and Borough Council were not coterminous, and passed it over to committees of the borough councils They considered that was a good thing, and I have never heard any criticism at all of the system that prevails in London Hon. Members opposite are always anxious that interests should be represented. They consider it perfectly fair that interests should have their say in an important matter like assessments. Our system at the present time permits interests to come forward for election. Whenever an election is approaching which will correspond with the quinquennial valuation in London, there is always, from the point of view of hon. Members opposite, an increase of a better personnel running as candidates for the borough council. We have a large number of persons representing the licensed victualling interest who come forward when the quinquennial valuation is approaching to devote their time to the interests of the people, in return for a representative or two on the council. We have representatives of the docks, shopkeepers and manufacturers, all anxious to get elected on to these councils', because they know how important it is that they should be there.
  It is a good thing that these people are elected, because, instead of going on to deal simply with one particular thing, they are then compelled to turn their energy, ability and skill to all the other problems, such as housing, public health, transport and road-making. Here the Government do not trust those people. You will be able to have a committee selected from these people, but not one of them ever having gone to the electors and placed before them any programme, so that any person can be selected to go on to a body of this kind to assess the property of ratepayers in such a way that the community will never be able to have the opportunity of exercising the slightest judgment in regard to their action. It is absolutely undemocratic and a departure from the policy which the Conservative Government has always laid down. It is a destruction of local government, and I am quite prepared to go into the

  1313
  Division Lobby in support of this Amendment, because I think it is right and proper that the people should have a say in the selection of these people.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 296.

  Division No. 403.]

  AYES.

  [10.16 p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hayes, John Henry

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Smillie, Robert

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Baker, Walter

  Hirst, G. H.

  Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

  Barnes, A.

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  Barr, J.

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Snell, Harry

  Batey, Joseph

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Briant, Frank

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Stamford, T. W.

  Broad, F. A.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Bromfield, William

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Kelly, W. T.

  Taylor, R. A.

  Buchanan, G.

  Kennedy, T.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Cape, Thomas

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Lawson, John James

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

  Clowes, S.

  Lee, F.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Lindley, F. W.

  Thurtle, E.

  Compton, Joseph

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Connolly, M.

  Lowth, T.

  Townend, A. E.

  Cove, W. G.

  Lunn, William

  Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  MacDonald, Ht. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

  Varley, Frank B.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Mackinder, W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Day, Colonel Harry

  March, S.

  Warne, G. H.

  Duncan, C.

  Montague, Frederick

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Morris, R. H.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Fenby, T. D.

  Murnin, H.

  Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

  Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Gosling, Harry

  Oliver, George Harold

  Weir, L. M.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Owen, Major G.

  Westwood, J.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent)

  Palin, John Henry

  Whiteley, W.

  Greenall, T.

  Paling, W.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Potts, John S.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Richardson, H. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Riley, Ben

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Groves, T.

  Ritson, J.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. B., Elland)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Windsor, Walter

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wright, W.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Scurr, John

  Hardie, George D.

  Sexton, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Harris, Percy A.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Charles Edwards.

  Hastings, Sir Patrick

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Bethell, A.

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Albery, Irving James

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Campbell, E. T.

  Apsley, Lord

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Christie, J. A.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Banks, Reginald Mitchell

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Bennett, A. J.

  Bullock, Captain M.

  Cope, Major William

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Couper, J. B.

  Berry, Sir George

  Burman, J. B.

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Remer, J. R.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Howard, Captain Hon. Donald

  Remnant, Sir James

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Rye, F. G.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Jacob, A. E.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Dixey, A. C.

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Drewe, C.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Sandon, Lord

  Duckworth, John

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Savery, S. S.

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Shaw, Capt W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Elveden, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  England, Colonel A.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Loder, J. de V.

  Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Looker, Herbert William

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Smithers, Waldron

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Lougher, L.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Fermoy, Lord

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Fielden, E. B.

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Finburgh, S.

  Macintyre, Ian

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  McLean, Major A.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Forrest, W.

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Gates, Percy.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Gee, Captain R.

  Meller, R. J.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Merriman, F. B.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Waddington, R.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Grace, John

  Mirchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Ward. Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Grant, J. A.

  Moles, Thomas

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Greene, W P. Crawford

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Neville, R. J.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Hanbury, C.

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Harland, A.

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Preston, William

  Wragg, Herbert

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Radford, E. A.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Raine, W.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Ramsden, E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Major Hennessy and Captain

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Margesson.

  Mr. SPEAKER: The next Amendment on the Paper is covered by the discussion we have just had.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I should like to have an opportunity of registering a vote on this Amendment, because it is to

  1317
  cut out words which wore put in in Committee against the wishes of the Government.
  Mr. SPEAKER: If the right hon. Gentleman will be content with one short statement and a Division, I will select the Amendment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 19, line 33, to leave out from the word "borough" to the word "The" in line 38.
  The words we propose to leave out are words which were added by the hon. Member for Liverpool against the wishes of the Government, and they were, I think, generally regarded as being unfortunate when they were put in. They are to say that one-fifth of the assessment committees have to be selected from people outside the council, independent persons representing, in fact, the interests. I do not think Liverpool it; a good city to take an inspiration from for the rest of England, and the idea that the Bill should be amended by putting into the assessment committee one-fifth, who should be on no account representative persons but who should be representing the interests, seems to me to be utterly reactionary. When the vote was taken, in spite of the pressure brought to bear by the hon. Member, the Solicitor-General, the Under-Secretary,
  the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Rye, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) and, in fact, the people who had most to do with the framing of the Bill both before it was introduced and while it was passing through Committee were against the Amendment. I remember at the time there was no one more surprised than the hon. Member himself that it was carried. But we need not bother about how or why it was carried. What we have to remember is, is it desirable to have upon your assessment committees co-opted people representing the various interests dealing with assessments. Do you want to have the licensed interest specially represented on your assessment committee? Do you want to have the interests of the various forms of property owners specially represented on that committee? If you are going to get a just valuation, is it not obviously undesirable that there should be special representation of any special interest? For that reason, I ask the House to reject the words, and restore the Bill to the shape in which it was when it was brought before the House on Second Reading by the Government.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'exclusive' in line 33, stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 295; Noes, 129.

  Division No. 404.

  AYES.

  [10.32 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Cope, Major William

  Albery, Irving James

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Allen, J Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Apsley, Lord

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Crookshank, Cpt H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Burman, J. B.

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Astor, Viscountess

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Barrett, Major Sir Richard

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Campbell, E. T.

  Dixey, A. C.

  Beckett Sir Gervase

  Cassels, J. D.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Drewe, C.

  Bennett, A. J.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Duckworth, John

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Bethell, A.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Elveden, Viscount

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Christie, J. A.

  England, Colonel A.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Fermoy, Lord

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Rye, F. G.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Salmon, Major I.

  Finburgh, S.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Forrest, W.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Loder, J. de V.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Looker, Herbert William

  Sandon, Lord

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

  Lougher, L.

  Savery, S. S.

  Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  MacAndrew, Charles Glen

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Gates, Percy

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Macintyre, Ian

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Gee, Captain R.

  McLean, Major A.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Smithers, Waldron

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Goff, Sir Park

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Grace, John

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Grant, J. A.

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.

  Storry Deans, R.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Meller, R. J.

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Merriman, F. B.

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Moles, Thomas

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Hanbury, C.

  Monse'll Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Harland, A.

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Tinne, J. A.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Neville, R. J.

  Waddington, R.

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Hilton, Cecil

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Watts, Dr. T.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Wells, S. R.

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Penny, Frederick George

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Peto, Basil (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Hore-Belisha, Leslie

  Pielou, D. P.

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

  Pownall, Lieut. -Colonel Assheton

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Preston, William

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

  Radford, E. A.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Raine, W.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Ramsden, E.

  Womersley, W. J.

  Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Remer, J. R.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Jacob, A. E.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Wragg, Herbert

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Captain Margesson and Major

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Hennessy.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon W. (Fife, West)

  Bromfield, William

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Buchanan, G.

  Duncan, C.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Cape, Thomas

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Fenby, T. D.

  Baker, Walter

  Clowes, S.

  Gillett, George M.

  Barnes, A.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Gosling, Harry

  Barr, J.

  Compton, Joseph

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Batey, Joseph

  Connolly, M.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Cove, W. G.

  Greenall, T.

  Briant, Frank

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Broad, F. A.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  1320

  1321

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Groves, T.

  March, S.

  Stamford, T. W.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Stephen, Campbell

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Montague, Frederick

  Taylor, R. A.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Morris, R. H.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Hardie, George D.

  Murnin, H.

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Oliver, George Harold

  Thurtle, E.

  Hastings, Sir Patrick

  Owen, Major G.

  Townend, A. E.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Palin, John Henry

  Varley, Frank B.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Paling, W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Potts, John S.

  Warne, G. H.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Riley, Ben

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Ritson, J.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Weir, L. M.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Westwood, J.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Whiteley, W.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wilkinson, Ellen C.

  Kelly, W. T.

  Scurr, John

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Kennedy, T.

  Sexton, James

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Lansbury George

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Lawson, John James

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Lee, F.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Windsor, Walter

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Smillie, Robert

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Lowth, T.

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  Lunn, William

  Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Aberavon)

  Snell, Harry

  Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Charles

  Mackinder, W.

  Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

  Edwards.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Major RUGGLES-BRISE: I beg to move, in page 19, to leave out from the word "one-fifth," in line 33, to the word "shall," in line 36.
  This Amendment is consequential to others that have been carried.
  The Marquess of HARTINGTON: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: In page 19, lines 42 and 43, leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."
  In page 20, line 7, leave out Subsection (5). — [Major Ruggles-Brise.]
  CLAUSE 18.—(County valuation Committees.)
  Amendment made: In page 21, leave out from the word "Act," in line 5, to the end of line 6.—[Mr. Chamberlain.)
  Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: I beg to move, in page 21, line 16, at the end, to insert the words,
  "(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Section, Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section eighty-two of the Local Government Act, 18SS (which relates to the proceedings of committees appointed by county councils), shall apply in relation to the county valuation committee, and Sub-section (3) of Section eighty of the said Act shall apply in relation to expenditure incurred or to be incurred in connection with the exercise by the committee of its functions as it applies
  1322
  to any other expenditure of a county council."
  The question raised is the extent to which county councils are to be masters in their own houses and to have effective control over the county valuation committees. It was pointed out in Standing Committee that, although the county valuation committee is called a committee of the county council, the county council valuation committee will be practically a separate entity and will no longer be responsible to the county council. It will have power to demand and to spend money out of the county fund, and will be able to participate in and to organise expensive conferences and other forms of spending the ratepayers' money. The county councils jealously guard their powers and rights. It is in order that it should be quite clear that these committees are to be responsible to the county councils that this Amendment has been moved. If it be accepted, it will place the county valuation committees on precisely the same footing as any other committees set up by the county councils.
  Captain BOURNE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I accept the Amendment.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does this Amendment mean that decisions of the

  1323
  county valuation committee have to be approved of by the county council before they become operative? If so, it seems to be an extraordinarily cumbersome procedure. I know the county valuation committee has not many powers, but such powers as it has will be hung up if every resolution which it passes has to go to the county council.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Section 80 of the Local Government Act of 1888 defines the relations between the county council and the committee, and it makes this committee really a committee of the county council, subject to the same control as that which the county council has over its other committees.
  Mr. ATTLEE: When this matter was discussed in Committee I think a point was raised by several Members as to the provisions with regard to the finance committee, and it was suggested that this committee when it wanted to appear under this Clause on behalf of any objection or appeal, required a resolution of the finance committee. Is that so, or can the finance committee give a general authorisation.
  Marquess of HARTINGTON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply to the question which was put to him just now by the hon. Member for Torquay (Commander Williams). Unless and until he answers that question the discussion of this Clause is meaningless and we do not know where we are.
  Captain BENN: The Debate is of an unreal character owing to the behaviour of the right hon. Gentleman. Apparently he has made some private arrangement to accept this Amendment and he scarcely even rises in his place to say that he accepts it. He has made no response to the appeals of hon. Members, including some of his own supporters, and he is treating the House in a manner which can fairly be described as disrespectful.
  Amendment agreed to.
  CLAUSE 19.—(Making of Valuation Lists.)
  Amendment made:
  In page 22, lines 17 and 18, leave out the words "and with respect to railways and special properties."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  CLAUSE 20.—(Effect of valuation list. 10 Edw. 7. and 1 Geo. 5. c. 24.)
  The following Amendment stood upon the Paper in the name of Colonel WEDGWOOD:
  In page 22, line 43, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(3) As from such time as may hereafter be determined by Parliament, and subject to such conditions as may be provided by Parliament, the gross value of any hereditament as appearing in the valuation list shall be taken to be conclusive evidence of the annual value of that hereditament for the purpose of compensation in the ease of compulsory acquisition."
  Mr. SPEAKER: With regard to the first Amendment to this Clause in the name of the right hon. and gallant. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), it is outside the scope of the Bill.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether the use of the valuation lists for this purpose is outside the scope of the Bill when we have examples throughout the Bill of the uses to which these lists are put for purposes of rating? Are we debarred from considering the use of the lists when compensation has to be paid for property acquired by the community or the local authority?
  Mr. SPEAKER: On this Bill, I think we are. The next Amendment in the name of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is in Order.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to move, in page 22, line 43, at the end, to insert the words:
  "(3) As from such time as may hereafter be determined by Parliament, and subject to such conditions as may be provided by Parliament, the gross value of any hereditament as appearing in the valution list shall be taken to be conclusive evidence of the annual value of that hereditament for the purpose of Income Tax."
  I believe that this would have the hearty support of all hon. Members opposite. The new valuation list for local taxation as arranged by their assessment committees should be taken as the basis for Income Tax under Schedule A. When the Bill was originally introduced that was the idea. Then, after a certain period, the valuation for local purposes as provided by this Bill was to be the basis of valuation for Schedule A of the Income Tax. We were to get one uniform value of property throughout the country, both

  1325
  for central and local purposes. As the various improvements in the system of arriving at a true value were carried by hon. Members behind the Government or adopted by the Government under duress, so gradually the idea of one valuation dropped out, and now the last thing the Government would accept would be this Amendment which I now ask to have re-inserted in the Bill to make it as it was when the Bill passed the Second Reading—that we should have one valuation based upon the valuation of squires and farmers who are going to form these assessment committees. We were going to get at last a single straightforward valuation. We had not got through the Second Reading before they knew they had to give way. By the time the Bill went through Committee the idea that this Clause should remain in the Bill became perfectly ridiculous. Until you get one uniform valuation for taxation and rating you will never get just and honest values. It is because we want a just and honest value that we press for a valuation from Somerset House, from headquarters—a real independent valuation. When we get it, we shall have, not merely the annual value of the property but the capital selling value of the land.
  Captain BENN: This Sub-section was in the original Bill and was left out upstairs. Now the Minister of Health proposes to leave it out, although the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), in loyalty to the original intentions of the Government, wishes to re-insert it. Surely the House is entitled to an explanation from the Government. I think the Report stage of any Bill would become a farce if we were not entitled to ask the Ministry why they departed from their original plans.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman reminds me of a character in a famous novel, who says to another one: "Don't you always be swal-
  lering my words and bringing them up again afterwards as if they were none the worse for the process." It is quite true that these words were in the original Bill, but when they were the words of the Government they had a meaning; now that they are the words of the right hon. Gentleman, they have no meaning whatever. They merely serve for an exhibition of that subtle irony in which he so much delights.
  Mr. ATTLEE: I think the right hon. hon. Gentleman might make clear why these words are no good now. The intention of the Bill as introduced by the Minister was to get a fair valuation by having an Inland Revenue expert on the committees to keep them more or less straight. Now, under pressure by the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington), by the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise), and by the right hon. Member for East Grin stead (Sir H. Cautley), and others, the whole gang of taskmasters, all those safeguards disappear, and now, so far from there being an assessment on which the national taxation could be safely based, the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that if he were to accept this Amendment now he would come off very badly from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury, who would not for a moment think of accepting this valuation by the process which has been forced on him by his hon. Friends, and which everyone knows is very little, if at all, an improvement on the present system. That is the real answer why the Amendment is not accepted.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It would seem that the Amendment was ironical. Ought I to put it to the House?
  An HON. MEMBER: We will vote ironically.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 127; Noes, 303.

  Division No. 405.]

  AYES.

  [10.59 p.m.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Cluse, W. S.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Briant, Frank

  Compton, Joseph

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Broad, F. A.

  Connolly, M.

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Bromfield, William

  Cove, W. G.

  Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Baker, Walter

  Buchanan, G.

  Dalton, Hugh

  Barnes, A.

  Cape, Thomas

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Barr, J.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Day, Colonel Harry

  Batey, Joseph

  Clowes, S.

  Duncan, C.

  Dunnico, H.

  Lawson, John James

  Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Lee, F.

  Snell, Harry

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)

  Lindley, F. W.

  Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)

  Fenby, T. D.

  Livingstone, A. M.

  Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles

  Gillett, George M.

  Lowth, T.

  Stamford, T. W.

  Gosling, Harry

  Lunn, William

  Stephen, Campbell

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

  Taylor, R. A.

  Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)

  Mackinder, W.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Greenall, T.

  MacLaren, Andrew

  Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)

  Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  March, S.

  Thurtle, E.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Groves, T.

  Morris, R. H.

  Townend, A. E.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Varley, Frank B.

  Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

  Murnin, H.

  Viant, S. P.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Warne, G. H.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Owen, Major G.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Palin, John Henry

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon

  Paling, W.

  Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Hastings, Sir Patrick

  Potts, John S.

  Weir, L. M.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Westwood, J.

  Hayes, John Henry

  Riley, Ben

  Whiteley, W.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

  Ritson, J.

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Scurr, John

  Windsor, Walter

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Shiels, Dr. Drummond

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Kelly, W. T.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. T.

  Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

  Smillie, Robert

  Kennedy.

  Lansbury, George

  Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

  Falle, Sir Bertram G.

  Ainsworth, Major Charles

  Caine, Gordon Hall

  Fermoy, Lord

  Albery, Irving James

  Campbell, E. T.

  Fielden, E. B.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

  Cassels, J. D.

  Finburgh, S.

  Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

  Forrest, W.

  Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Foster, Sir Harry S.

  Apsley, Lord

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Fraser, Captain Ian

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Christie, J. A.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis H.

  Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony

  Astor, Viscountess

  Clayton, G. C.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

  Gates, Percy

  Ballour, George (Hampstead)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

  Barnett, Major Sir Richard

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Gee, Captain R.

  Barnston, Major Sir Harry

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

  Cope, Major William

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

  Courtauld, Major J. S.

  Glyn, Major R. G. C.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

  Goff, Sir Park

  Bennett, A. J.

  Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)

  Grace, John

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Grant, J. A.

  Bethell, A.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Greene, W. P. Crawford

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

  Grotrian, H. Brent

  Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

  Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

  Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

  Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Davies, Dr. Vernon

  Hammersley, S. S.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hanbury, C.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Dean, Arthur Wellesley

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Briscoe, Richard George

  Dixey, A. C.

  Harland, A.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.

  Drewe, C.

  Harrison, G. J. C.

  Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

  Duckworth, John

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Brown, Brig.- Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

  Haslam, Henry C.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Elveden, Viscount

  Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

  Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan

  England, Colonel A.

  Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

  Burman, J. B.

  Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

  Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

  Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Burton, Colonel H. W.

  Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Butler, Sir Geoffrey

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Fairfax, Captain J. G.

  Hilton, Cecil

  1328

  1329

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Moreing, Captain A. H.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

  Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Holland, Sir Arthur

  Murchison, C. K.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Holt, Captain H. P.

  Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Homan, C. W. J.

  Nelson, Sir Frank

  Spender Clay, Colonel H.

  Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)

  Neville, R.J.

  Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

  Hopkins, J. W. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

  Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Nicholson, O. (Westminster)

  Steel, Major Samuel Strang

  Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)

  Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert

  Storry Deans, R.

  Hume, Sir G. H.

  Nuttall, Ellis

  Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)

  Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

  Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

  O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Oman, Sir Charles William C.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Pennefather, Sir John

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Jacob, A. E.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Jephcott, A. R.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

  Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

  Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

  Tinne, J. A.

  Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

  Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  King. Captain Henry Douglas

  Phillpson, Mabel

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Pielou, D. P.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Power, Sir John Cecil

  Waddington, R.

  Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Wallace, Captain D. E.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Preston, William

  Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Radford, E. A.

  Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

  Loder, J. de V.

  Raine, W.

  Warrender, Sir Victor

  Looker, Herbert William

  Ramsden, E.

  Waterhouse, Captain Charles

  Lord, Walter Greaves-

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

  Lougher, L.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

  Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Wells, S. R.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.

  Mac Andrew, Charles Glen

  Remnant, Sir James

  White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple

  Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

  Rentoul, G. S.

  Wiggins, William Martin

  McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

  Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

  Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

  Macintyre, Ian

  Rice, Sir Frederick

  Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

  McLean, Major A.

  Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

  Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

  Macmillan, Captain H.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

  McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Winby, Colonel L. P.

  Macquisten, F. A.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  MacRobert, Alexander M.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Rye, F. G.

  Wise, Sir Fredric

  Malone, Major P. B.

  Salmon, Major I.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Womersley, W. J.

  Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

  Sandeman, A. Stewart

  Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.

  Sanders, Sir Robert A.

  Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

  Meller, R. J.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank

  Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

  Merriman, F. B.

  Sandon, Lord

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Meyer, Sir Frank

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave, D.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Savery, S. S.

  Wragg, Herbert

  Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

  Moles, Thomas

  Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

  Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Moore, Sir Newton J.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Captain Margesson and Major

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. U. T. C.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hennessy.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentle-man the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has asked me to allow him to move an Amendment on Clause 21.
  CLAUSE 21.—(Contents of valuation list.)
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I beg to moves, in page 23, line 4, to leave out the words "the value" and to insert instead thereof the words
  "the gross value, the net annual value, and the rateable value thereof, together with such further particulars."
  I apologise to the House for not having put this Amendment on the Paper, but I received it only this morning from an old and respected friend. The Clause
  1330
  lays it down that there shall be inserted in the valuation list
  "such particulars with respect to every hereditament in the rating area and the value thereof as may be prescribed."
  What I am afraid of is that people will have only the net annual value and the rateable value and not the gross value. If people are to be able to make the fullest comparison between their property and others when they go to the rate book to see if they are fairly assessed the rate book ought to give them full information. I am so convinced that the importance of getting our valuation list complete is so great, that if the Government will accept this Amendment, which I am afraid they will not, I should really once more approve of their Bill, but the arguments

  1331
  against this Amendment will, I suppose, be the old arguments which have always been brought up one after another on this Bill, that the people whose property is set down in the valuation list do not want publicity. We do want publicity for these matters. I think every honest citizen, looking at this purely from the point of view of getting a correct register, must want these values set down, so that they can be seen, and I do not think we ought to sacrifice that simply because there is an instinct in human nature to keep the valuation of their own property secret, so that it cannot be compared with that of other persons. Therefore, I do beg the Government either to insert this Amendment, or to tell us that the value to be inserted in the valuation law will contain gross, net and rateable value, and then we shall have, not a fair valuation, but, at any rate, a comparative valuation upon which to work.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman evidently thinks we are more intelligent on this side of the House than he and his friends are, if he expects we shall fully understand his manuscript Amendment, of which he has not sent me a copy. The argument why we cannot accept his Amendment is not at all the old argument that he has brought up, but another quite different one. We cannot insist in each case that the gross value of the hereditament shall be inserted, because in a great many cases there is no gross valuation. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the Second Schedule, he will see there the cases of gross value. I think I can satisfy his mind by saying that certainly among the particulars we shall prescribe to be inserted in the valuation list will be the gross value where there is gross value, the rateable value, and, where the net annual value differs from the rateable value, the net annual value.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  CLAUSE 22.—(Ascertainment of rateable value.)
  Amendment made: In page 23, line 8, at the beginning, insert the words:
  "For the purposes of the first new valuation list to be prepared under this Act and of any subsequent valuation list."—[Sir K. Wood.]
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 23, line 17, after the word "table," to insert the words
  "and also, in the case of a hereditament subject to any rate, charge, or assessment made by any commissioners of sewers or other like authority in respect of any drainage, wall, embankment, or other work for the benefit of the hereditament (not being a usual tenant's rate), such further amount as represents the average annual amount of that rate, charge or assessment."
  This Amendment refers to certain deductions in cases of hereditaments subject to various charges. We put in numbers 7 and 12 as part of the Second Schedule, with special deductions in the case of agricultural land. Since then it appears that there are also buildings subject to these charges, and I propose to take these out of the Schedule and put them into the Bill itself.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Major RUGGLES-BRISE: I beg to move, in page 23, lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words "taking one year with another."
  The words in the Bill imply taking a collection of years, past as well as pro-sent and future. At the present time it is obvious that in order to arrive at the true value of any hereditament, the more we can leave out the past, which is connected with post-War valuer, the better. If we can deal with the present and the future we are more likely to get a true cross rateable value.
  In all the Acts dealing with gross rateable value the words "from year to year" have been the words used. There is quite a body of case law which clearly sets out what those words mean. There is only one Act of Parliament in which the words "one year with another" are used, and that is in the Metropolitan Valuation Act, 1869, and when we are trying to get a Bill dealing with rating reforms and attempting to achieve uniformity, then the less question there is about matters of definition the better. and we should use words which are well known to have a legal meaning and have been settled in the Courts rather than an expression not so well known as the one in the Bill.
  Mr. RHYS: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: It is quite true, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, that there are two definitions-describing the same

  1333
  matter and having the same meaning. The words "taking one year with another" are in the Act of 1869, and the words "from year to year" are in the Act of 1836. As we are leaving London out of the Bill, and as we previously had the London definition in, I think we can now accept my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion, which will make the phraseology, exactly the same all through. Therefore, I am glad to accept the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 23, line 23, after the word "pay," insert the words "from year to year."—[Major Ruggles-Brise.]
  Colonel VAUGHAN-MORGAN: I beg to move, in page 24, to leave out from the word "of" in line 17, to the end of line 20, and to insert instead thereof the words
  "the net annual value or rateable value as calculated in accordance with the provisions of this part of this Act."
  The purpose of this Amendment is merely one of machinery, and it does not affect any question of principle. The intention is simply that the net annual value, or the rateable value, shall be calculated to the nearest pound, and not merely that the amount to be deducted shall be so calculated.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: I bog to second the Amendment.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think we are indebted to my hon. and gallant Friend for moving this Amendment, which is certainly a distinct improvement on the original draft of the Bill. The object, of course, is to get the net rateable value rounded off to an even number of pounds. As the Bill was drafted, the calculation was made by deduction from the gross value. This Amendment will carry out what was intended, but was not properly expressed in the original draft.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 24, line 21, leave out the word "deduction.' and insert instead thereof the words "net annual value or rateable value."—[Colonel Vaughan-Morgan.]
  CLAUSE 23.—(Assessment of certain buildings occupied in parts.)
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to move, in page 24, line 44, at the end, to insert a new Sub-section:
  1334
  "(2) This Section shall have effect in any area for the purpose of the making of the first new valuation list under this Act for that area and for the purpose of the revision of that list and the making or revision of any subsequent list, but shall not have effect for the purpose of the making or revision of any other valuation list."
  This Amendment is designed to indicate exactly the date at which the Section comes into operation, and makes it quite clear that it refers to the new valuation list, and not to the current valuation list.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. ERSKINE: I beg to move, in page 24, line 44, at the end, to insert the words
  "Always provided that the rateable value of such dwelling-house at the time of the last quinquennial valuation be not less than one hundred pounds per annum."
  Mrs. PHILIPSON: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Sir K. WOOD: I regret that I cannot advise the House to accept the Amendment. If I did so, it would practically destroy the Clause, and we have had a considerable number of representations on the necessity for giving authorities this power.
  Mr. ERSKINE: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  HON. MEMBERS: No!
  Amendment negatived.
  Ordered, "That the further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now-adjourned."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered Tomorrow.

  TRIBUNALS OF INQUIRY (EVIDENCE) ACT, 1921.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, the allegations made against the Chief Constable of Kilmarnock in connection with the dismissal of Constables Hill and Moore from the burgh police force."—[Sir John Gilmour.]
  Mr. LANSBURY: Has the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) been consulted about this?
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): Yes, I understand so.
  The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 16th November, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-Nine Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

POST OFFICE.
  EXPRESS DELIVERY SERVICES.
  EXPRESS DELIVERY SERVICES.
  CHRISTMAS TRAFFIC.
  CHRISTMAS TRAFFIC.
  STAMP CANCELLATION MACHINES.
  STAMP CANCELLATION MACHINES.
  TOWN DISTRICTS (FIRST DELIVERIES).
  TOWN DISTRICTS (FIRST DELIVERIES).
  AERIAL WIRES (PIGEONS).
  AERIAL WIRES (PIGEONS).
  MOTOR CARS AND VANS.
  MOTOR CARS AND VANS.
  WARWICK OFFICE (STATUS).
  WARWICK OFFICE (STATUS).
  MOUNT PLEASANT OFFICE (NEW BUILDING).
  MOUNT PLEASANT OFFICE (NEW BUILDING).
  WEST RIDING, YORKSHIRE, FACILITIES.
  WEST RIDING, YORKSHIRE, FACILITIES.
  RURAL DISTRICTS.
  RURAL DISTRICTS.
  NORTHOLT WIRELESS STATION (BROADCAST RECEPTION).
  NORTHOLT WIRELESS STATION (BROADCAST RECEPTION).
  RICHBOROUGH PORT (SALE).
  RICHBOROUGH PORT (SALE).
  HORSES (EXPORT).
  HORSES (EXPORT).
NATIONAL FINANCE.
  TRADE FACILITIES ACT (LOSSES).
  TRADE FACILITIES ACT (LOSSES).
  INCOME TAX.
  INCOME TAX.
  GOLD STANDARD (CREDITS).
  GOLD STANDARD (CREDITS).
  PLAIN BRITISH SPIRITS (ALLOWANCE).
  PLAIN BRITISH SPIRITS (ALLOWANCE).
  3½ PER CENT. CONVERSION LOAN (DISCOUNT).
  3½ PER CENT. CONVERSION LOAN (DISCOUNT).
BRITISH ARMY.
  CADETS' PAY.
  CADETS' PAY.
  OFFICERS' PAY.
  OFFICERS' PAY.
  INTER-ALLIED DEBTS.
  INTER-ALLIED DEBTS.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  APPEALS REJECTED.
  APPEALS REJECTED.
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES (MOTHER'S RE-MARRIAGE).
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES (MOTHER'S RE-MARRIAGE).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (H. LUMB).
  DISABILITY PENSIONS (H. LUMB).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (REGIONAL DIRECTORS).
  MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (REGIONAL DIRECTORS).
  BOARD OF HEALTH, SCOTLAND.
  BOARD OF HEALTH, SCOTLAND.
  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS ACT (INSPECTORS).
  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS ACT (INSPECTORS).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (LAND DIVISION).
  MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (LAND DIVISION).
  CRIMINAL LUNATIC.
  CRIMINAL LUNATIC.
  AERATED WATER FACTORIES (WOMEN WORKERS).
  AERATED WATER FACTORIES (WOMEN WORKERS).
AGRICULTURE.
  CO-OPERATION.
  CO-OPERATION.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  CANADIAN CATTLE (POUT OF LONDON).
  CANADIAN CATTLE (POUT OF LONDON).
  CATTLE IMPORT RESTRICTIONS, UNITED STATES, CANADA, AND IRELAND.
  CATTLE IMPORT RESTRICTIONS, UNITED STATES, CANADA, AND IRELAND.
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
  PARACHUTES.
  PARACHUTES.
  VACCINATION.
  VACCINATION.
  FOREIGN AIRCRAFT (BRITISH ENGINES).
  FOREIGN AIRCRAFT (BRITISH ENGINES).
  CO-PARTNERSHIP SCHEMES.
  CO-PARTNERSHIP SCHEMES.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  JUVENILES.
  JUVENILES.
  ROAD SCHEMES.
  ROAD SCHEMES.
TRANSPORT.
  RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSINGS (ACCIDENTS).
  RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSINGS (ACCIDENTS).
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  DOCK ROAD SCHEME.
  DOCK ROAD SCHEME.
  THAMES TUNNEL SCHEME.
  THAMES TUNNEL SCHEME.
  LONDON-MAIDSTONE-FOLKESTONE ROAD (GRANTS).
  LONDON-MAIDSTONE-FOLKESTONE ROAD (GRANTS).
  LONDON UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS (STOPPAGES).
  LONDON UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS (STOPPAGES).
MOTOR TRAFFIC.
  PARKING PLACES, LONDON (ATTENDANTS).
  PARKING PLACES, LONDON (ATTENDANTS).
  OMNIBUS ACCIDENTS.
  OMNIBUS ACCIDENTS.
  ROAD SURFACES (ACCIDENTS).
  ROAD SURFACES (ACCIDENTS).
  MOTOR TAXATION.
  MOTOR TAXATION.
  BICYCLES (REAR LIGHTS).
  BICYCLES (REAR LIGHTS).
  OMNIBUS CONDUCTORS (BOYS).
  OMNIBUS CONDUCTORS (BOYS).
  DRIVERS' LICENCES.
  DRIVERS' LICENCES.
  OMNIBUSES (TOP-DECK COVERS).
  OMNIBUSES (TOP-DECK COVERS).
  MOTOR-CAR PRICES.
  MOTOR-CAR PRICES.
SYRIA.
  BRITISH RESIDENTS, BEIRUT.
  BRITISH RESIDENTS, BEIRUT.
  BRITISH CONSUL, DAMASCUS.
  BRITISH CONSUL, DAMASCUS.
  RIFFS (MEDICAL STORES).
  RIFFS (MEDICAL STORES).
  EAST AFRICA (TRANSPORT).
  EAST AFRICA (TRANSPORT).
  HUDSON MEMORIAL (POLICING).
  HUDSON MEMORIAL (POLICING).
POOR LAW.
  CASUAL WARDS, OXFORDSHIRE.
  CASUAL WARDS, OXFORDSHIRE.
  ADMINISTRATION.
  ADMINISTRATION.
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
  EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
  BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
  BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION.
COAL INDUSTRY.
  RAIL-BORNE COAL (INQUIRY).
  RAIL-BORNE COAL (INQUIRY).
  LOW-TEMPERATURE CARBONISATION.
  LOW-TEMPERATURE CARBONISATION.
  SWANWICK COLLIERY (BOY'S DEATH).
  SWANWICK COLLIERY (BOY'S DEATH).
  SUBSIDY.
  SUBSIDY.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BEDFORDSHIRE, CAMBRIDGESHIRE AND HUNTINGDONSHIRE ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a: An Amendment made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BOURNEMOUTH AND LYME REGIS ORDERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved a number of Amendments to the Bill. The noble Viscount said: This Bill, originally, concerned two Provisional Orders, one of which, that connected with Lyme Regis, it is now desired to withdraw. The Amendments that I have to propose are chiefly drafting Amendments consequent upon that withdrawal, with which the Minister is perfectly satisfied, and with your Lordships' permission I would suggest that they be taken together.
Amendments moved—
In the title, leave out ("certain") and insert ("a"), and leave out ("Orders") and insert ("Order"), and leave out ("and Lyme Regis")
Page 1, line 2, leave out ("Orders") and insert ("Order")
Page 1, line 5, leave out ("Orders") and insert ("Order")
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("Orders") and insert ("Order")
Page 1, line 13, leave out ("are") and insert ("is")
Page 1, line 16, leave out ("Orders") and insert ("Order")
Page 1, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("and Lyme Regis Orders") and insert ("Order")
Page 16, leave out pages 16 to 18 ("The Lyme Regis Order").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I think that the Second Reading of this Bill is more or less a formal proceeding in your Lordships' House. If any noble Lord wishes to raise any point of detail, I gather that this is usually done on the Committee stage, when noble Lords representing the Departments concerned are present to reply. There is just one point to which I think I ought to refer in moving the Second Reading of the Bill. The Select Committee on the Expiring Laws (Continuance) Bill, 1922, recommended that there should be a periodical review by a Select Committee, at intervals of three years, in order that there should be no further congestion in the Schedule of the Act. Accordingly a Committee was appointed in March of this year and it made certain specific recommendations with regard to making certain Acts permanent and continuing other Acts temporarily. The Bill before your Lordships has followed out these recommendations, except in one small particular. The Committee included amongst the Bills to be continued the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act of 1914, but added a note to the effect that that Act was no longer required and would consequently be dropped. Further investigation has shown that there are certain orders under that Act still being acted upon and, in consequence, that Act has been included in the Second Schedule of this Bill to be continued till December 31, 1926. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I see no reason to think that your Lordships' House will dissent from what has been laid down generally by the noble Earl, but I think it is just as well that he should

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give us a day or two before the Committee stage to look into the points which he has indicated, one of which at least is somewhat substantial. Perhaps the noble Earl will arrange for that.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I hope that the noble Marquess the Leader of the House will consent to give us a day or two before the Committee stage is taken because I intend to move to leave out that Act which prevents cigarettes being sold after eight o'clock and chocolates before seven o'clock, or some absurd regulation of that sort.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, of course we will consult the convenience of the Leader of the Opposition and of my noble friend in this matter. I do not know whether Thursday would suit the noble and learned Viscount for the next stage.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes, I think we should be content with Thursday.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Of course, if the House wishes for a little longer interval we shall be only too willing to meet noble Lords.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I think we can do it on Thursday, but it might be better, in order to deal with some technical matters, if we fixed on Tuesday, if that is not too late.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Not at all; we will take it on Tuesday next then.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MONEYLENDERS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill.
LORD CARSON: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do go into Committee on this Bill. I think what I have to say in making this Motion will not take up much time. Your Lordships will remember that after this Bill had received a Second Reading in this House another
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Bill in another place also received its Second Reading. A Motion was then made to refer these Bills to a Joint Select Committee of the two Houses and this Bill and the other Bill were presented to the Joint Committee which was set up. That Committee sat for some considerable time and took a considerable amount of evidence, which, if any of your Lordships have leisure to lead, you will find extremely interesting, on some of the matters connected with this difficult subject of moneylending. I think we owe much to the patience of Lord Darling, who gave a great deal of time in presiding over that Committee with the knowledge and experience which he had obtained during the long period that he adorned the Bench.
The Committee have now reported. They have made a good many alterations in the Bill and I shall state the chief of them in a few words. In the first place they propose that moneylending should be carried on under a system of licensing which they have set out in the Bill, subject, of course, to the approval of the House of Commons. Then they have made considerable alteration in the restriction of the rate of interest, in connection with which, when the Bill comes to be discussed by clauses, I myself would like to propose an alteration They have changed the percentage which was in the Bill when it left this House from 15 per cent, to 4 per cent, per month, which, worked out in the way in which the moneylenders carry on their business by monthly instalments, represents, I am told, 80 per cent, per annum, which seems to me, if true, to be too great a rate. I mention that as one of the chief matters introduced. The Select Committee have also made considerable changes as regards the use of the Bankruptcy Court for enforcing these debts by moneylenders, entirely, I think, advantageous to the Bill. I do not think anything more remarkable occurred in the course of the proceedings of the Select Committee than the evidence given by the Bankruptcy officials of this country, which showed, as well as I remember, that more than 30 per cent, of the whole of the bankruptcy petitions which led to bankruptcy in this country are presented by moneylenders and nearly as large a percentage are settled after presentation, the moneylenders, no doubt, making use

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of the Bankruptcy Court for the purpose of bringing pressure upon the relatives of those to whom it would be disastrous to become bankrupt. In addition there is a considerable amount of evidence as to the effect upon other creditors when the moneylender's debt goes into the Bankruptcy Court. By their system of interest and compound and super-compound interest, and in other ways, they are able to heap up their charges and obtain practically the control of the whole administration of the bankruptcy fund, to the exclusion of the other creditors.
I will not go further into matters. They are all matters of great importance, and I propose, if it is agreeable to your Lordships, as being the most feasible way of dealing with the Bill, that we should go into Committee now, and that I should move that all the Amendments made by the Select Committee be inserted in the Bill. Then, if your Lordships are agreeable that that should be done, I would propose that the Report stage should be put down for a convenient time, and noble Lords will then have an opportunity of challenging any of these alterations by moving Amendments to them, or by moving additions to the Bill. That seems to me to be the practical way of dealing with this Bill. I earnestly hope that we may get the Bill through in the shortest possible time and that the great time and attention given by the members of the Joint Select Committee may not be thrown away. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Carson.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
LORD CARSON: I beg to move that the Amendments proposed by the Joint Select Committee be made.
Moved, That the Amendments proposed by the Joint Select Committee be made.—(Lord Carson.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LOCARNO PROTOCOL.
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD who had given Notice to call attention to the Treaty of Mutual
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Guarantee initialled at Locarno on October 16, 1925, and annexed to the Final Protocol signed on that date and to move for Papers, said: My Lords, this Motion was placed upon the Paper last week in my name after negotiations had taken place with the Government through the usual channels and it was then understood that so far as I am concerned the Motion was merely formal. It was put down with a two-fold object: first, to acquaint your Lordships with the fact that a debate upon the Locarno Treaty was going to take place to-day; and, secondly, to elicit from the Government a statement regarding the Treaty upon which discussion would then take place. It was intimated that so far as the Front Opposition Bench is concerned the main contribution would be made by my noble and learned Leader subsequent to the Government statement. In these circumstances I do not propose to detain your Lordships at all; neither do I propose to move for Papers, though I if there are any further Papers which the Government feel that they could publish with regard to this Treaty, we should like to have them. That is really the history of this Motion so far as I am concerned, and I propose at once to ask the noble Earl, Lord Balfour, who I understand is to speak for the Government, if he will be good enough to make a statement to your Lordships upon the Locarno Treaty.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE EARL OF BALFOUR): My Lords, I am not very familiar with the procedure of your Lordships' House in so far as it differs from the procedure in another place to which I am more accustomed, but I cannot help thinking that there is a certain inconvenience in the method adopted by the noble Lord and his friends on the Opposition Front Bench in connection with this subject. Of course, if they have no questions to ask, if they have no criticisms to make, it does not matter when the Minister rises from this Bench to deal with the question of Locarno. But obviously if they have criticisms to make, if they have questions to ask, it is very unfortunate that I have to speak before those questions are put, without any opportunity at a later stage of dealing with any points that may arise in debate. However, I do not wish to press that. Noble Lords adopted the procedure which they have adopted with

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a full knowledge of its consequences, and I may be allowed to infer from the course which they have taken that they have no very serious questions to ask, no very important criticisms to make.
Quite frankly, I am not in a position to add anything to what is familiar to all members of your Lordships' House. There was a very full debate in another place and a speech from the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who speaks, inevitably and naturally, not only with a fulness of knowledge but with an authority on this subject to which I make no pretence; and his speech has no doubt been perused by all members of your Lordships' House. Besides that, I do not think there is any important public transaction in the region of foreign affairs on which there has been a more complete statement of the Government case and of all the facts relevant to a decision upon this most important issue. There never has been n case in which the Government have taken more into their confidence not only the House of Commons, not only your Lordships' House, not only the British public, but the public of Europe at large. Therefore I do not for a moment suggest that I have anything to say to your Lordships with which you are not all familiar; but as the. Front Opposition Bench desires some statement from Ministers I shall be glad to do my best to satisfy them.
If anybody wants to realise what the stage in the gradual healing of Europe is which is marked and caused by the Locarno Treaty let them, if they will, cast their minds back even a very few years, and ask themselves whether it was then conceivable that there should meet around an equal table the representatives of Germany, of Italy, of France, of Belgium and ourselves in friendliest converse, dealing with perfect sympathy and comprehension, and ultimately perfect agreement, with the difficult international problems which the Locarno Treaty embodies. Is it possible to conceive such an event taking place, if you put yourselves into the frame of mind in which the different States of Europe found themselves when other influences were at work, other statesmen were at the head of affairs, and when fear and hatred were almost the dominant missions that influenced the policy of some great nations?
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When I say that the change has been great do not let me be supposed to suggest that there has been any great change in the movement of public opinion in this country. So far as I am able to estimate the opinions of my fellow countrymen and the actions of preceding Governments, they have always been anxious for appeasement. All in their several ways, and to the best of their abilities, and according to the opportunities that circumstances offered them, have striven for the same end for which we have striven in the Locarno Treaty; and indeed the work of the Treaty of Locarno is based largely upon previous work done by those who were in office before the present Government came into power. I speak not of British public opinion but of Continental public opinion, and I speak with perfect confidence, when I say that it is impossible to conceive the great work which has now, I hope, been accomplished, which certainly has been accomplished in substance and is about to be completed in form, being undertaken, or if undertaken being brought to a, satisfactory conclusion, in the spiritual conditions which prevailed, relatively speaking, but a few months ago. That is an immense change. It is a change infinitely for the better, and I cannot help thinking that the public instinct is not deceived when it regards the Treaty of Locarno as the symbol and the cause of a great amelioration in the public feeling of Europe, as the beginning of a new era, as the end of an old and evil state of things, as the first great step towards that international amity which scarcely differs more from a state of overt war than it differs from the moral bitterness which prevailed, uninterfered with and unchecked, for so many years after peace was nominally concluded.
I think I am not going too far when I say that this happy change, and this great feat of international statesmanship which has marked the change, is not merely due—I do not quite know how to put it—to overt circumstances, but is due even more to the tact, the temper and the statesmanship of the various representatives of the great European countries which met on equal terms at the round table at Locarno. It has been our good fortune to see the coincidence of the right men dealing

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with a happy situation. That situation could easily have been spoiled. I believe that one man at Locarno, chosen at random, had he been there to wreck the proceedings could easily have done so. But all the men who met there had two immense advantages. They had the advantage of their own statesmanlike temper, their own earnest desire to see that Locarno should be a substantial success in the cause of international morality and international peace. They had that temper which does not regard suspicion of those with whom you deal as the beginning of wisdom. They had the art of inspiring each other with a well-founded confidence in their own honesty of purpose and their own intense desire to see a happy termination of their labours. They had not only those personal qualifications; but they had the advantage, without which their labours would indeed have been vain, that each of them felt that ho had behind him, broadly speaking, the unanimous opinion of the country which he represented. Therefore it is that at the round table at Locarno, over which neither suspicion, nor greed, nor hatred, nor undue ambition, nor fear found any place, these statesmen, meeting together with very different traditions behind them, animated by very different memories, yet found themselves able to agree cordially and wholeheartedly and without afterthought to the drawing up of this great document which I firmly believe marks the beginning of a great and new epoch of moral reconstruction in European countries.
I do not know that there are any criticisms which I ought to consider before I sit down. I am not going to describe the Treaty. I will not weary your Lordships by repeating what you all know well—its broad outlines, its general intention. They are familiar to every reader of newspapers, to every one who has listened to debates and to every one who has taken part in them. But there are two broad points on which, perhaps, I may say a word. The first relates to the League of Nations. It has been suggested, not indeed by noble Lords opposite who have so far suggested nothing, but by very distinguished people that, disguise it as you will, the Treaty of Locarno is really a blow aimed, not intentionally but in effect, at the
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League of Nations, that the Treaty of Locarno, as it were, puts a side the League of Nations as the guardian of peace and the arbiter of harmony and substitutes for it what may be relatively described as a private arrangement between certain great Powers from which the League, excepting in name, is obviously and manifestly excluded. I think that is a complete and profound misapprehension. I do not wish to dwell unduly upon the fact, which must be obvious to everybody who has glanced at the documents which have been laid before your Lordships, who knows the terms in which the Treaty is couched and the tenour of the documents by which it is accompanied, that in every one of those documents, almost in every paragraph of those documents, the position of the League of Nations is recognised, the aid of the League of Nations is invoked, and every effort is obviously made by those concerned in framing the Treaty to maintain, indeed, to increase, the prestige, if possible, and to help the authority of the League of Nations.
It may be said, possibly: "Well, that is true as a matter of style. The League of Nations comes very well out of the negotiations at Locarno. As a matter of drafting, no institution could be more handsomely treated by the Powers concerned at Locarno than the League of Nations has been treated. But that, after all, is merely the surface aspect of the case. Essentially, and if you look at the inward character of what has been done, the Treaty of Locarno, whether intentionally or unintentionally, probably unintentionally, is a blow at the prestige, the position and the power of the League." I think that is a very profound and even dangerous mistake. We have to consider, of course, that the League of Nations, as it is at present constituted, is not in every respect the League of Nations as designed by its original framers. It differs from that original plan not merely because certain great nations have declined to belong to it, although the fact that certain great nations have declined to belong to it does make an important difference in certain aspects of the League's potential activity. I do not think it has made any difference in the work which the League has actually done, and nobody who has studied what the League has done will,

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in my opinion, be inclined to underrate the immense and growing services which it is doing to international relations and civilised society. I believe that those benefits are enormous, and I do not think they could have been better performed even if all the nations of the world had, as was originally hoped and planned, made themselves Members of the League.
It is not, therefore, what has been done, or what is being done, which causes anxiety to those who, like myself, think that the future of the world and of civilisation very largely depends upon the prestige and the growing power of the League of Nations. Their anxiety is not due, as far as I am aware, to their thinking that the League has defeated the designs of its framers in the way it has carried out the functions entrusted to it. It may have made mistakes. I am not aware of any human institution, national or international, which does not make mistakes, but, broadly speaking, I boldly say that any man who will take the trouble—and very few critics of the League do take the trouble—to see what the League has done, and is doing, will, I am convinced, take the view that it is an immense, novel and effective addition to the machinery of international civilisation. But behind that conviction, and behind any knowledge which you can get from seeing what the League has done or is doing, there has always lurked the fear that, seeing that several great nations are not Members of the League, seeing that they are not bound in any way by pledges to the League or by Treaties, the time might come when one of them, two of them, or—put it as you like—all of them might show a complete indifference to League ideals, might show a profound contempt for the power of the League, and might undo in one reckless moment the fabric so laboriously and so successfully in process of being built up at Geneva.
It is impossible to deny that such a catastrophe was conceivable. Had all the nations of the world, as was hoped, been active and believing Members of the League from the beginning, I do not think that particular nightmare would ever have suggested itself to the prophets of evil, but as it is it could not help suggesting itself, and it had suggested itself, and many people who admired the League, who believed that
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it was right in principle, who admitted that it was doing good work and looked forward to its doing still better work as time went on, nevertheless suggested (which is easy to conceive) a strain being put upon the machinery of the League which would break it, and then all the labour world be thrown away. I do not say whether such a danger existed or did not exist. What I say is that it was thought to exist, undoubtedly it was thought to exist. That danger, be it real or be it imaginary, can only be cured or dealt with by considering a situation which, I hope and believe, is temporary, by looking around and seeing now where in the community of nations is this danger which I have indicated most likely to arise, or likely at, all to arise, and then dealing with that danger to the best of your ability. I will not say that that is all that has been done, but it is one of the things which have been done at Locarno. Undoubtedly it would be mere affectation to deny that the international relations in the west of Europe and the centre or Europe did give rise to this anxiety in many minds, to this anxious foreboding of which I have spoken, but I believe they have been completely put an end to so far as the great belligerents are concerned by the Treaty of Locarno; in other words, to use a phrase which has been in evidence in these debates, it has underpinned what is temporarily the weakest part of the League of Nations.
They have, I believe, found a remedy for the sort of evil which I have indicated. They have quite rightly stilled the fears of even the most timorous. They have given us a genuine security in the future which will not merely, as I think, prevent great nations coming to overt acts of hostility, but will, by putting that possibility altogether on one side, produce an atmosphere in which international amity may again grow up, and in which infinite possibilities of good will may find their completion and their consummation. If I am right, if I have not over-coloured my picture, if I have not over-stated my case, can there conceivably be a greater service, both to the League and to all the nations who are represented in the League, than the policy which finds its consummation in Locarno? The League are perfectly aware of what service Locarno does them. They passed a resolution clearly showing their approval of

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the course which has been adopted. They are met by the very terms of the Treaty of Locarno, they are brought in at every stage to assist, they are perfectly conscious of the importance of the rôle they are asked to play, and it seems to me that no man who knows what the League of Nations is, how it works, the magnitude of its labours, the difficulty of its labours, but will agree with the League itself in thinking that the Treaty of Locarno, so far from being an attack upon the League, is one of the most valuable supports which the League has ever received.
If you say to me: "Well, cannot you imagine an international system in which such arrangements as those embodied in the Treaty of Locarno would find no place, in which all the work of preserving the peace would be thrown upon the League of Nations, unassisted by subsidiary international arrangements? "—of course I answer in the affirmative I can easily conceive it. If you allow yourself to look forward to a time when every great nation will be a willing and a for rent adherent of the League of Nations and the principles embodied in the League of Nations, and engaged in practising those principles, I think it is quite likely that such arrangements as are embodied in the Treaty of Locarno will become entirely antiquated, wholly superfluous, and will in the future be looked upon as being merely a necessary stage in the general peaceful evolution of mankind. And no one would rejoice more than the authors of the Treaty of Locarno at such a consummation.
But meanwhile we are wise to take facts as we find them, and to embody in the subsidiary Treaties arrangements which might have been unnecessary had the League of Nations embraced the whole world. As things are they are necessary, and could not, I think, have been carried out more admirably than they have been carried out in the Treaty which is now under discussion. It is a great feat in international statesmanship. I do not think I am misled by national vanity in saying that this country and the Government, which in this respect at all events if in no other does represent the whole country, has taken a very notable part in carrying out a great common work. They could not indeed have carried it out alone. They could not have carried it out
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unless they had found among all their colleagues a spirit like unto their own, which has enabled each country assembled at Locarno to make its necessary and invaluable contribution, its irreplaceable contribution, to the common work.
I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more upon the Treaty itself, but I may be allowed to say one word about a matter which has caused a good deal of discussion in another place and in the newspapers with regard to the position of the British Empire as distinguished from the Government of the United Kingdom in this matter. I shall not deal with it in any detail, and if there are questions to be asked about it I hope noble Lords opposite will address them to the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, who is perfectly well acquainted with all the facts and capable of dealing with them. At the moment I will confine myself to one or two general observations.
The criticism, of course, is that the British Empire as a whole took no part in the debates at Locarno, has expressed no formal agreement with the results of Locarno, and is not bound by the Treaty of Locarno. I do not for a moment deny that that, so far as it goes and in itself, is an unsatisfactory state of things; but it is a state of things which I trust we are in process of remedying—I do not mean an immediate process, but that all Governments are anxious to remedy it—and that in the evolution of the British Empire we shall find a remedy. I do not know that the remedy will be complete. I do not know that it is possible to get the sort of unity in the British Empire which is possible in other great States whose geographical conditions are different, whose constitutional position is different, who live under centralised governments and who belong rather to an older order of things. But though it is a matter for regret it is not a matter for shame that our Empire is less closely knit, less formally organised than the Empires of other States. We are engaged in an entirely new experiment in the world's history in empire building. We have slid into the position, as we have slid into other positions, by dealing with the difficulties and problems as they have arisen, until one day we awoke and said: "This is quite a new thing which we have almost in-

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stinctively created. How are we to turn it to the best account?" There have been great Empires in the world before the British Empire was born or thought of, but there has never been an Empire in the least resembling the constitution of the British Empire, nor has there ever been an Empire which has had to face, because of that very fact, problems so novel and so difficult.
If you read the history of the United States of America you will realise the immense difficulties which the founders of the American Constitution came across when they attempted to deal with thirteen different States and weld them into the great American State which we know to-day. Their difficulties were great. We praise their triumphs. But their difficulties were nothing to the difficulties which British statesmen and Dominion statesmen are faced with; and it is foolish to suppose that, out of this slow-growing organization—the result almost of the instincts of our people more than their deliberate and set design—difficulties may not arise between these different communities, separated by half the globe in some cases but still sharing a common tradition, sharing largely common blood, sharing the same constitutional ideals, speaking the same language, obeying similar laws, but nevertheless each with its own centralised life, with its own special difficulties, each faced with its different problems and with different versions of the same problem.
The difficulties are immense, and they come out in their most forcible aspect when you are dealing with such a situation as the Government had to deal with when faced with the problems of Locarno. We did everything we could to obtain direct consultation with the Dominions. We took care that they were acquainted with everything that happened and were made acquainted with all the phases of British policy. We could do no more; nor could they have done any more. I am sure they are as anxious as we are to work with the Mother Country but, of course, the geographical divisions which embarrass us embarrass them as well, and it is perfectly true that the Locarno Treaty does not show the British Empire as the unity which, practically, it undoubtedly is, and it is the mere fact that it has been found impossible on this
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occasion, as it was on a previous occasion impossible, to treat it as other States are treated, as other States, more centralised and under a wholly different Constitution, have been treated and were capable of being treated in the past.
But if anybody asks me—and I am sorry for this excursus into constitutional speculations, which is longer than I intended—if anybody asks me whether I have any misgiving as to the results of the fact that the Dominions are not bound more than they choose to be bound by the Locarno Treaty, I say that I have not. I am perfectly certain, in the first place, that it will be realised throughout the King's Dominions that this was a great effort on the part of the Home Government to secure peace, and I am equally sure that there is no interest which the Dominions possess and are more deeply conscious of than the necessity of preserving peace. In the second place, they will see, if ever war is forced upon this country because it is carrying out the spirit and the letter of the Locarno Treaty, that the whole of the moral forces of the world will be behind us, that the war will be obviously, on the face of it, a defensive war, and that, equally obviously, it will be a war intended to check brutal and unnecessary aggression. Not merely all the feelings of patriotism, not merely all the feelings of common kinship will move the Dominions to sympathise with the Mother Country, but also all the elements of the higher morality to which they are singularly alive.
There is, I think, a third result to be expected. They will realise that this war, unjust as regards the conduct of our opponents, unprovoked from the very nature of the case, is a war in which the very existence of the Mother Country and of the Empire is really involved. There can be no war under the Treaty of Locarno in Western Europe which is not both an unjust war and a war which menaces the very heart of the Empire. If they realise all those things—and they will realise them—let nobody tell me that, so long as the British Empire exists, it will not act as a single body when that great moment comes and that we shall not see in the future, as we have seen in tie past, an absolutely united Empire, joined together, working with a single purpose for a single end

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in the cause of peace and in the cause of public international morality. Therefore there is no aspect of the Treaty of Locarna which I regard with doubt or with misgivings. Whether I look at it from the point of view of the British Empire, or from the point of view of international peace, or from the even higher point of view of international amity, it seems to me to be one of the greatest steps ever taken to lift the community of nations out of the slough of difficulties into which it had sunk and to open out for ourselves and for our posterity a happier era than any to which, a few years ago, I had dared to look forward.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, in the statement which the noble Earl has made he began with something that sounded a little like a complaint. He asked, in effect, why we did not put down criticisms and specific questions to which he could address himself. But it was not for the sake of criticism or for the sake of specific questions that we put down this Motion. It is the practice of this House not to be content with statements that have been made in the other House. On that subject we are sensitive in this House, and the noble Earl will find as time goes on that one thing that we insist on, if I may use the expression, more almost than any other is that we should have statements to ourselves from Ministers of the Crown. It does not follow that such statements are bare repetitions. They can usefully be made with variations and as affording fresh information.
The noble Earl seemed to think that we wished to make some specific criticism of that which has happened at Locarno. For a very good reason we did not. Locarno has just begun; it is the beginning and not the end of wisdom. It is on the working out and, it may be, on the working out within the next few weeks, of that which has happened there that we shall have to pass judgment, and until we have the materials it would obviously be unwise to embark upon any criticism. The last thing that we wish is to be unappreciative of the work done by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He went to Locarno and there he displayed tact and—a thing that is held to be of great importance in this
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country—character also; and when you have tack and character combined you are very strongly armed for diplomatic negotiations. He negotiated, and he negotiated with men who, so approached, turned out to be of the same mind as himself, and the result is the happy agreement which was arrived at. But that agreement is only the beginning of a long series of things.
The noble Earl did one thing for which I was grateful to him. He gave us an indication of the spirit in which we are conducting our communications with the Dominions upon this subject. Under the Treaty the right of the Dominions to assent or dissent is reserved. We shall hear in course of time what they think, and I find nothing at all to complain of in the spirit which the noble Earl indicated as the spirit in which we should approach the matter. You cannot too strongly realise that the way to deal with the Dominions is not to ask them to appoint the Foreign Secretary to conduct negotiations for them and to bind them. The right way is to inform them as swiftly and as closely as you can of everything of which you can tell them, and then leave them to judge. There is a much more powerful motive than any consideration of Empire that moves them, and that is the real community of purpose which they have with the Mother Country. Experience has shown that the more we have trusted to them, the more we Have acknowledged the full freedom of the Dominions in diplomatic negotiations and everything else, the closer the tie between us has grown, and I trust that this spirit, which was the spirit which the noble Earl indicated, will continue to be pursued and that nothing may occur to interrupt it.
Freedom is a great asset, a great conciliator. I have always thought that the Declaration of Independence was the most important event in promoting good relations between ourselves and: the United States, and without that Declaration I do not know where we should have been to-day. Given that Declaration, given the complete liberty which it brought, our relations are excellent; and, in quite another way, the same thing is true of the Dominions. They are Dominions, they are Governments under the King, and they must study the interests of their own people, and so long as they feel that the interests of

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their own people lie together with the keeping up of the community of sentiment and interest which now attaches, all will be well.
I say these two things because, first of all, I am anxious to make it clear that I am making no criticism upon the way in which the Foreign Secretary conducted the negotiations. On the contrary, I think the country owes him a debt of gratitude, and I am satisfied with what the noble Earl said about the Dominions, but only one thing will I say in that connection, and this has a wider application than merely the Dominions. We are only at the beginning. Locarno is admirable so far as it goes. The marriage has taken place but we are not through the honeymoon, and even during the honeymoon disturbances may arise. We cannot tell. But it would have been of great interest to us if the noble Earl could have told us something about the attitude at this moment of Germany. Germany, obviously, has difficulties. So far as I can judge, Germany wishes 1o come, in the spirit of Locarno, into the League of Nations, and I think it will be a, great misfortune for the world if that does not take place. But we do not know. I am not sure that His Majesty's Government know very much more than we do, but at any rate they do not give us any information upon that point. It would have been interesting if the noble Earl could have done so.
The Treaty of Locarno is spoken of as if it were a Treaty that stands by itself, but it is one of a group of seven Treaties, some of which are of very different orders. First of all there is the Treaty of Mutual Guarantees. Then there is the Arbitration Convention between Germany and Belgium, which is very important, as I read it, and I hope a beneficial one Then there is the Arbitration Convention between France and Germany—again of the utmost importance, bringing as it does the principle of arbitration to bear. Next there is the Arbitration Treaty between Germany and Poland, which is very good, as I read it, and there is another between Germany and Czechoslovakia, which is of the same order. Then I come to two others, one between France and Poland and the other between France and Czecho-Slovakia. I am not complaining of those, because the most foolish thing is to criticise your
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neighbours when you do not know the circumstances which led to their action; but these, are Treaties which lie outside the character of the group of five to which I first referred, and they are Treaties which conceivably may make things hereafter not look BO smooth as they do at the present time. I am not saying that they could have been avoided—I am not sure that they could have been—but still there they are, Treaties of another order. Speaking for myself I look forward to the time when Germany will be in the League of Nations, and under a set of Treaties from none of which she will be excluded and in all of which she will have an interest. This has not come about yet with regard to these two last Treaties, and I hope that certain circumstances will make, these two last Treaties much less important than they seem to be to-day.
The noble Earl referred to the League of Nations. If ho thought that there was any notion on these Benches that the League of Nations had been damaged by the Locarno arrangements, I think he was in error. You have only to read through the Treaties to see what a large part the League plays in them. If they succeed, the part of the League of Nations will be more important than ever before in the world. The principle of arbitration—of referring disputes—is developed, and I do not think we can forecast what changes may take place for the better in the adjustment between the nations concerned. For my part I dislike extremely the confession of guilt which was thrust into the Treaty of Versailles, in which Germany was made to acknowledge her sins. That was not got out at Locarno and I do not suppose it would be wise to suggest it should be got out, but it is not a thing which makes for smoothness, and I hope that one of the good results of the new orientation of affairs will be to make words of this sort seem less important. The noble Earl did not touch on any of these things, and possibly he was wise in not doing so, but he will understand how there was a certain curiosity in our minds, and a certain hope that he might have something to say about the things with which he did not deal.
The noble Earl's speech was rather a pæan of praise of Locarno, and if he had confined that strictly to the spirit in

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which the Treaty was entered into, and had said: This is the beginning of wisdom and not the end, and now we shall see in the next six months how things work out, and then if in six months you put down another motion we shall be able to tell you a great number of things—not so nice, perhaps, but a great deal more numerous—I should have been more interested in the speech of the noble Earl, which, like all his speeches, was admirable in form. As things stand, 'however, I resume my seat feeling not much more wise than before I rose about the Treaty of Locarno, and I altogether disclaim the idea that we should put down hypothetical questions directed to situations which may never arise, and which I trust never will, but which if they do arise will have to be the subject of further comment.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, I do not rise in any spirit of controversy with regard to anything that the noble Earl said, but I should like to support the remarks which Lord Haldane has already made on the subject of procedure in this House. I am not, any more than the noble Earl opposite, an authority on procedure in this House, and I still observe procedure in this House very much from the point of view of one the greater part of whose public life has been spent in the House of Commons. I do not know, however, that on Foreign Affairs, at any rate, the procedure in this House should be so very different from procedure in the House of Commons. The Locarno Treaties are, I think, the biggest things that have happened in foreign affairs since the Armistice, and in the House of Commons the debate was initiated by a statement—a very full statement—from Mr. Austen Chamberlain.
When the noble Earl opposite told us this afternoon that he thought there was a certain inconvenience in his speaking first, because Mr. Austen Chamberlain had already made so full a statement on behalf of the Government in the House of Commons, I could not help reflecting, somewhat sadly, that unless the House of Commons had changed very much since I was a member of it, supposing the Government there had refused to open a debate by making a statement on so important a matter, on the ground that a full statement had been already made
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in the House of Lords, there would have been considerable commotion in the House of Commons. It would, of course, be an affectation not to admit that your Lordships' House does not in many respects perform anything like such important functions in the Constitution as the House of Commons does, nor has it anything like the same powers. But so long as your Lordships' House does perform useful functions in the Constitution I think that the question of foreign affairs is one of those subjects on which the prestige and dignity of your Lordships' House should be preserved, and it cannot be preserved unless on very important occasions, when a day is named for discussion in your Lordships' House, the discussion is opened by an authoritative statement from some member of the Government. I only want to make that remark on the general question of procedure.
On the Locarno Treaties I do not wish to weary your Lordships by repeating things that other people have said or that I myself may have said elsewhere, but I should like to say a word or two on the subject of the Dominions. At least one very uncomfortable speech has been made in the Dominions on the subject of the Locarno Treaties, the speech by General Smuts not so very long ago. I recognise fully, and I think the Dominions themselves must recognise, that there are very great difficulties in consultation about foreign policy. Every effort ought to be made to overcome those difficulties, and in this instance I dare say the Government have done all that could be done, but I would just suggest that before the Government went to Locarno they might have sent—and perhaps they did send—a full explanation to the Dominions of why the Locarno Conference was necessary, what was the policy which the Government intended to pursue at Locarno, and what it was that they hoped would be achieved there. Perhaps that was done. I only put it forward as an instance of the sort of method that might be pursued. Now that the Locarno Treaties are or will soon be an accomplished fact, I do not suggest that pressure should be put upon the Dominions to become parties to those Treaties if they have doubts, but I assume that explanations have been made, and indeed the debates have done a great deal to explain to the Dominions what are the merits of

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the Treaties that have been agreed to, and to put them, in as full possession as we in this country are of the considerations which induced the Government to sign those Treaties and which make us attach such favourable importance to them.
On that point I would make one suggestion, which seems to me worth pointing out to the Dominions, as to why they must not regard these Locarno Treaties as if they had no obligations in Europe at all—they already have obligations under the Covenant of the League of Nations. It is not as if adhering or not adhering to the Locarno Treaties was going to make all the difference as to whether a self-governing Dominion had any obligations with regard to the Treaties or not. They all have adhered to the Covenant of the League, and they all therefore have potential European obligations under the Covenant of the League. It will therefore, I think, be worth while explaining to the Dominions exactly in what, respect they have obligations under the Locarno Treaties which they have not got under the Covenant.
I would put it this way: that they have already obligations under the Covenant, that those obligations might in certain circumstances assume a serious form, and that one of the reasons why we welcome the Locarno Treaties is that we consider that by bringing Germany into the League and by bringing France and Germany into political agreement with each other, placing them in the same diplomatic camp, the prospect of disagreeable obligations in Europe arising under the Covenant is very much diminished, and the Locarno Treaties, whether the Dominions become parties to them or not, will in our opinion diminish the risk which the Dominions already run of having to take serious action under the Covenant of the League, which they might find very disagreeable and burdensome. That is one point of view from which I regard the Locarno Treaties. They immensely strengthen the League of Nations, and, while strengthening the Covenant, they also very much diminish the risk that the obligations which we have already undertaken under the Covenant might become serious and embarrassing in Europe They do it by bringing Germany into the League and by bringing France and Germany, whose
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quarrels have been the focus and origin of so many wars in Europe, into the same diplomatic camp.
On the other aspects of the question I would only endorse most warmly what has been said by the noble and learned Viscount about the value of the part taken by Mr. Austen Chamberlain. I subscribe to the utmost to what has been said about the value of his personal qualities at the Conference, and when the noble Earl was saying how fortunate the British Secretary for Foreign Affairs had been in the personalities of those, whom he met at Locarno I am sure those who met him at Locarno are equally enthusiastic and whole hearted in feeling that to the part he played with them was greatly due the success of the whole Conference, just us the noble Earl very rightly admits that the success of the Conference was due to the representatives of other nations besides our own. In fact, so far as the personal part is concerned, I regard it as a most welcome thing that, when Mr. Austen Chamberlain returned to this country from Locarno he brought home to us, not only these Treaties which had been, initialled there, but the confidence of all the foreign colleagues with whom he had worked—a confidence which, so long as he remains at the Foreign Office, is bound to be fruitful in carrying on the work which was begun at Locarno.
I will not labour obvious points—the value of Germany's entering the League and of France and Germany coming together—but I would like to say a word or two about the spirit of Locarno. It has become a commonplace, but not the less important or true because it has beer so often repeated, that the spirit of Locarno is more important than the Treaties themselves. I think that by "the spirit, of Locarno" one of the things that we mean is this, that the desire to secure future peace has got a greater hold on the nations who were represented at Locarno than it ever had before. Before 1914 peace was on the lips of everybody, and peace, I think, was in the minds and intentions at any rate of most people. Whether it was in the minds and intentions of everybody is, of course, a matter of propaganda and counter-propaganda, and will continue to be so. But I think there was something more than an intellectual conviction at

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Locarno as to the value of the work they were doing. I think there was, if one may use the expression, a conviction of the feelings, there was something like enthusiasm—not, I think, at the beginning of the Conference, for a more important thing was that it seemed to grow up after the Conference began—a sort of enthusiasm in those who took part in it, which meant that their feelings and emotions were engaged in the work which they were doing.
In all human relationships, whether it be between friends or whether it be between nations, it is a most valuable bond if the emotions are engaged in a feeling that they are co-operating in an end which they desire. That is more than a merely intellectual co-operation, and it seems to me that part of the spirit of Locarno is that there was a touch of feeling and emotion, an enthusiasm about it which I do not remember to have occurred in any previous international Conference. Indeed, I think Locarno differed from previous Conferences in that it was not a question, as on so many occasions since the War, of rights on one side and obligations on another. It was not, as international Conferences so often are, a Conference where nations meet who know perfectly well that they come there desiring different things and who argue together in order that they may arrive at an agreement which, as they desire different things, is, of course, a compromise. Locarno was quite different from that. It seems to me that those who met there came to feel that they were all desiring the same thing and pursuing the same end. They had not come there to adjust differences, to settle separate national interests, and to balance them one against the other. They had come there to pursue a common object which each believed to be the paramount interest of them all.
What was that object? That object was to avoid war in future; to settle all disputes between them by some method other than war. It was much more than settling any frontier question. It was to put into practice the principle of settling disputes by some method other than war. One of the things which is most valuable is that, so far as human documents can avoid it, we shall not have a difference of opinion, if war breaks out in Europe, as to who is the aggressor. For those
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who are parties to it the League of Nations acts, and will act, as a test in settling who is the aggressor such as we have never had before in international affairs. In the dispute between Greece and Bulgaria the other day each maintained that the other was the aggressor. The League of Nations provided the touchstone. The question as to who was the aggressor did not depend on the statements of either of them. Once the test of their observing their obligations under the Covenant of the League and putting their dispute before the machinery of the League was applied, the one who refused to do that ipso facto became the aggressor. As I understand the Locarno Treaties, they do that in the most specific form, not only for Germany and France, but for Germany and all her neighbours. They are most valuable documents to have in the international affairs of Europe.
I would like to say a word on what the noble Earl opposite said about the part which the Government preceding the present one had in bringing this about. The Labour Government found Reparations the acute question in Europe. As long as the question of Reparations remained unsettled it was a barrier to a political settlement. They were parties, and the handling of the subject by their Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary contributed considerably, I believe, to getting a settlement of the Reparations question and thereby preparing the way for a political agreement. Then they proceeded to the Protocol. I have never been so critical of the Protocol as some people have been; but the present Government felt themselves bound to reject the Protocol. The fact that they felt themselves bound to reject the Protocol and the fact that the Protocol was in favour with many nations of Europe and was rejected, was, by itself, a step towards doing something to take the place of the Protocol. As I have never been very critical of the Protocol, though I have always thought it would require some reservations or amendments before we could accept it, I would suggest that if the Locarno Treaties, though of less scope and less ideal than the Protocol, bring Germany into the League of Nations they will really be a more effective step forward than anything like the

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Protocol, however ideal, would have been, unless it had simultaneously brought Germany into the League. That is a point worth bearing in mind in comparing the Locarno Treaties and the Geneva Protocol.
Mr. Austen Chamberlain said the other day that this was the beginning and not the end. We all feel the truth of that remark. Just let us consider what is to follow Locarno. Something has followed Locarno already which was not in the Treaties at all. Apparently at Locarno, though the Locarno Treaties had nothing to do with the Treaty of Versailles, there was an expectation that one of the fruits of the Locarno Treaties would be an evacuation of Cologne and certain alleviations in the occupation of the Rhineland. As far as I can gather, those fruits have already appeared. As I understand, though I know it only through the Press, Germany has undoubtedly recognised that the Locarno Treaties have borne fruit already in something which was entirely outside the scope of the Treaties themselves. That is one thing of which Locarno has been the beginning, and if the spirit of the Locarno Treaties is maintained after they are completed I am sure they will bear still further fruit in softening that occupation and, perhaps, bringing it to an end altogether before the final and latest date fixed by the Treaty of Versailles. Anyhow, something has been done in that direction already.
Another thing which is necessary if that spirit of Locarno is to continue is that there should be good faith on the part of Germany with regard to the disarmament obligations. Again, so far as we understand, the Conference of Ambassadors and Germany have practically come to an agreement on that point. Good faith on the part of Germany as well as the preservation of a conciliatory spirit on the part of the Allies is necessary to the getting of the full value out of the Locarno Treaties. But assuming that Germany has kept her obligations for disarmament, there remains a further step forward. If Germany keeps her obligations as to disarmament, the other countries who are parties to the Locarno Treaties should also proceed to the reduction of armaments. Just as Reparations barred the way to a political agreement which should include France and Ger-
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many, so I think the want of a political agreement and the want of the feeling of security which a political agreement might have produced barred the way to any reduction of armaments.
I understand—I have not verified the reference—that when very strict obligations were imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles to remain unarmed, or comparatively unarmed, part of the reason and justification for that obligation was that it would free her neighbours from the burden of excessive armaments. The wry has been cleared for some advance towards the reduction of armaments and I hope that in the course of a few years—I am not pressing for things in a hurry, because I realise that Locarno itself could not have been brought about had we been over-anxious and over-pressing to reach a political agreement of that kind before the time was ripe for it—just as it is one of the satisfactory things about Locarno that those who were parties to the war met there on equal terms, so we may arrive at a reduction of armaments on the part of Germany's neighbours which will make it appear that if Germany remains with limited armaments it is not because an inequality has been imposed upon her by the Treaty of Versailles, but because the fact that she remains disarmed and has entered into those Treaties has enabled other nations to reduce their armaments also. Thus the reduction of armaments will cease to have an invidious appearance in respect of one Power because they will all be on equal terms.
Although I might have gone a little more into detail about that, I do not think that I have gone beyond what Mr. Chamberlain himself said with regard to the prospects of a reduction of armaments and the influence which Locarno may have on the reduction of armaments. I do think that Locarno may be the beginning of a feeling of security in Europe such as has never been known before, and it may well be that only one of its results will be the reduction of armaments. It was the piling up of armaments in Europe before the War which made the War, some people may say inevitable, at any rate so near, and it always must be so. So long as Europe is covered with powder magazines there will never be a feeling of security simply because people have come to an agree-

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ment not to put a match to those powder magazines, it is essential that materials for making war should be reduced in amount if there is to be a secure peace. We have been in a vicious circle about armaments. It is fear which produces armaments. Armaments in Europe, I think one may say, have always been materialised animosity, or materialised fear, but mainly fear. Until you can get rid of the fear you cannot get rid of the armaments, and so long as the armaments go on they lead to more fear, so that the circle is an exceedingly vicious one.
Now the whole question of the future is—I put it hopefully—will these recurring Treaties be so fruitful that they will undermine that sense of fear in Europe and remove it? I think the mere signing of them will do something, but it will mean a few years of showing the spirit of Locarno, the enthusiasm that was felt there, the belief that the preservation of peace in Europe, the settlement of disputes in Europe, by some methods other than war is such a paramount national interest of everybody that no separate national interest should be pressed at any conference to a point that was likely to damage that paramount interest—it is that alone which can remove the fear which has caused armaments. Locarno at any rate has done this much. It has diminished the chance, if not indeed made it impossible, of Europe finding itself growing divided into two opposite diplomatic camps. It has brought the nations who are parties to it, including France and Germany, into the same diplomatic camp, and it has brought them into the same diplomatic camp not against any other nation, not in a way which excludes any other nation. It is open to any other nation to gain admittance, provided that it has the one qualification of real good will to peace and believes that the preservation of peace is its interest as well as that of Europe. Locarno gives us the first hope that we have yet had, I think, since the Armistice that something has been set on foot which may grow in strength, and get so into the feelings of nations in their dealings with each other that it may undermine that sense of fear which has really been at the root of armaments and at the root of previous causes of war in Europe.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, there has been in this debate
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practically no criticism of the action of His Majesty's Government except, if one may dignify it by the name of criticism, a certain comment upon what the noble and learned Viscount opposite thought was a complaint by my noble friend (the Earl of Balfour) that he was called upon to begin the debate, or practically so, and as that was repeated by the noble Viscount who has just sat down, perhaps I may be allowed to say one word upon it. I am quite sure your Lordships will believe that I am immensely pleased that noble Lords opposite should be so anxious to maintain the full privileges of your Lordships' House. I wish in past times they had always been animated by that feeling. It is certainly a matter of great satisfaction, and one in which I entirely share their views, that there is no subject upon which the country expects enlightenment from your Lordships' House so much as on the subject of foreign affairs, notably because there sit in this House so many noble Lords who are great authorities on the subject. It is, amongst other things, of the greatest importance that the country should know what the noble Viscount opposite thinks of any question of foreign affairs, and any opportunity which he gets of addressing your Lordships ought to be eagerly availed of. I am quite sure your Lordships will believe that my noble friends and myself will do everything we can to further that object, but I should like to say, as the matter has been made a subject of comment, that the more usual practice of raising debates in either House of Parliament is for the critics to begin.
There is, I admit, in this case no criticism, and I expect that is the reason why noble Lords did not wish to begin. It is quite true that it would be treating your Lordships with scant courtesy if there was any desire on the part of His Majesty's Government to withhold any subject from your Lordships' consideration, and there is no idea of any such thing in the minds of any of us. But, after all, we are very practical people in your Lordships' House. The noble Viscount who has just sat down used the phrase: "I do not propose to weary your Lordships by repeating what has been said by other people." My noble friend beside me did not propose to weary your Lordships by repeating what had been said by

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Mr. Austen Chamberlain in another place. As I have just remarked, we are practical men, and what we want to do is to address ourselves to the subject, and what we can do and what we always do is to approach the subject not merely by repeating what has gone before but in order to add something fresh and useful. Noble Lords who have spoken in this debate are eminently qualified to do so; therefore it seemed good to us to suggest that if there was any matter in the policy of His Majesty's Government which had not been explained in another place, or had not been explained in a form that was acceptable to noble Lords, then any comment They wished to make they should make here. That would in no way have restrained ray noble friend from making a, speech, but would have had the effect of directing his remarks into those channels which were most interesting to the House. That is what he desired to do. After this great effort on the part of the Opposition, I think the speeches have shown that there are certain subjects upon which my noble friend might hav3 been able to enlarge if he had only known that they were to be raised. But, as noble Lords opposite preferred that my noble friend should begin, he was, of course, perfectly willing to do so.
I should have been content to have left the matter there. So far as we are concerned, we certainly do not desire to deprive your Lordships of any opportunity which the other House possesses of debating these great subjects, especially subjects connected with foreign affairs. But there was one, piece of comment—I will not call it criticism—by the noble Viscount who has just sat down which does require to be cleared up. If I understood him aright he made it a subject of criticism that the Dominions had not been more fully informed of the policy which His Majesty's Government intended to pursue at Locarno. If I am misinterpreting him he will correct me.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: I said I did not know, and I shall be glad to get information as to what was done.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I can only repeat what was said by Mr. Chamberlain in another place, and perhaps I might be allowed to recite what he did say:—
"We did seek a conference with the Dominions and India before we announced
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our policy with respect to the Protocol, and that not merely for the purpose of deciding what was to be done with the Protocol, about which all the Governments of the Empire were in agreement, but because we simply could not turn down the Protocol and leave nothing in its place, and because there must be an alternative policy which we must adopt,"
That is to say, the Government would wish to have a Conference with the Dominions not merely on the Protocol, which it was agreed by all the Governments of the Empire we could not accept, but also upon the policy which was to take its place. That is the policy which your Lordships are discussing this evening. Mr. Chamberlain explained that we should have wished to have that Conference. He went m to say:—
"I do not for one moment criticise the Dominion Governments which were unable at a moment's notice to come and meet us in conference. But the affairs of the world do not stand still."
They could not meet us; and we were very sorry. We should have been most anxious if it could have been carried into effect. I think that will, be a sufficient answer to the noble Lord.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I should like to say one word in answer to what the noble Marquess has said as regards the position of the Colonies and Dominions. The question of the Locarno Treaty began, and was initialed by Germany, in February last. Surely there was time between February and the succeeding six months, not perhaps for a personal conference between the Colonial Ministers and ourselves but at least to have had communication with them in order to show that we were prepared to consult them on important matters of this kind and at the same time to ascertain what their opinion might be. I yield to no one in my desire that the good feeling, which has been so well pointed out by the noble Earl, should be maintained between the commonwealth countries which form the British Empire. It is not only in South Africa that comments have been made. Remarks have been made in another of our great Dominions, Canada; and on this footing—not in the least antagonistic to us—that so far as possible, if there is to be a common foreign policy such as we all agree is desirable from every point of view, every opportunity should be taken to consult with the Dominions beforehand in order that their views might be ascertained.

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I do not, of course, go beyond that. The question is whether in this case the opportunities which, in fact, arose were taken advantage of and whether, between February and the meeting at Locarno, negotiations might not have been opened in order that the Dominions might have had full information as to what our policy would be, and their opinion asked as to whether they were in support of it or not. I am not going beyond that point because I think the question of the future position of the Dominions and Commonwealths in the matter of foreign policy requires very careful consideration indeed. It is a difficult matter. It is not an easy matter at all, and I lay this down at any rate, that whenever it is possible and as far as it is possible I hope opportunities will be taken to consult beforehand; that is, before a policy is confirmed. I understand that the noble Marquess opposite agrees with me.
There is one matter which has not been considered this afternoon with regard to the position of the Colonies. It is quite true that they are under no obligation to come to our assistance, but under the principles of international law should this country be engaged in war they would be in the position of belligerents. That cannot be helped. It is part of the position, because His Majesty the King is the head of the Executives of the Mother Country and of our Dominions. I do not know that in this case the matter is likely to be of much importance, but one can never tell what the future will bring. It is one of the points which we certainly ought to bear in mind when we consider any general resettlement of the relationship of the Dominions on matters of foreign policy, and the great desirability of giving them full opportunity to express their opinions beforehand and not leaving it open on such occasions for them to express the view that they cannot regard themselves as bound because they should have been taken into consultation in the first instance.
THE PARLIAMENTARYUNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS(THE EARL OF CLARENDON): My Lords, I have no desire to prolong this debate, but as the noble Lord opposite has specifically asked a further question some answer from His Majesty's Government is necessary. I should like to say quite definitely that the Dominion
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Governments from time to time have been kept fully apprised of the general policy of His Majesty's Government on this subject. I am correct in stating that the representatives of the Dominions at Geneva were very fully so informed. I think it must be realised that in all matters of this kind, when decisions have to be taken at a moment's notice, it is impossible when fresh points crop up, as they did at Locarno, to communicate with and receive answers from the Dominions thousands of miles away, but I might say that so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned the suggestion has been made to the Dominions that all these matters might be the subject of discussion at the next Imperial Conference when it takes place. The Foreign Secretary, in another place, distinctly stated that he hoped the Imperial Conference would not be delayed too long. I think that answers the first point raised by the noble Lord. The latter point is a subject which, I suggest, could be dealt with at the Imperial Conference. With regard to the points raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Grey of Fallodon, His Majesty's Government will consider the question of putting them forward in any future communications with the Dominions.

KILMARNOCK POLICE INQUIRY.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH rose to move, That it is expedient that a tribunal be established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, for inquiry into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, the allegations made against the Chief Constable of Kilmarnock in connection with the dismissal of Constables Hill and Moore from the Burgh Police Force. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name requires a word of explanation. Some little time ago my right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland received a representation from the General Central Committee of the Scottish Police Federation and afterwards from the police authorities of the Burgh of Kilmarnock to the effect that an inquiry should be held into the dismissal of two constables. The Secretary for Scotland considers it expedient that effect should be given to this request by the appointment of a tribunal under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921. Procedure under that Act has the

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advantage that evidence can be taken on oath and the production of documents can be required. It is necessary before the appointment of such a tribunal that both House of Parliament should pass a Resolution in the terms stated on the Paper. For that reason I beg to move.
Moved, That it is expedient that a tribunal be established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act. 1921, for inquiry into a definite matter of urgent public; importance, that is to say, the allegations made against the Chief Constable of Kilmarnock in connection with the dismissal of Constables Hill and Moore from the Burgh Police Force.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CAMPBELTOWN HARBOUR AND GAS BILL. [H.L.]
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Sections 8 and 9 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Campbeltown harbour and gas, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned at ten minute past six o'clock.

NORTHAMPTON GAS ORDER, 1925.
Report from the Select Committee that the Special Order should be approved with an addition: read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The said addition to be printed.

RUSHDEN AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
NORTH SOMERSET ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) SPECTAL ORDER, 1925.
ASHFORD ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
BARROW-UPON-SOAR, AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
SUTTON-IN-ASHFIELD AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
STANLEY ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
LEICESTER ELECTRICITY (EXTEN- SION) SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
GRANGE ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER, 1925.
Report from the Special Orders Committee that no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 2a on Thursday next.
MONEYLENDERS BILL. [H.L.]
Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next.