Sitting of 29 July 1925

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  BLACKPOOL IMPROVEMENT BILL [Lords].
  As amended, considered.

  CLAUSE 91.—(Summary proceedings for abatement of nuisance).
  Mr. W. BAKER: I beg to move, in page 65, line 24, after the word "officer," to insert the words "or the sanitary inspector."
  I understand that this Amendment is acceptable, and in that case I will not go into details in moving it.
  Mr. MACKINDER: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill to be read the Third time.
  Ipswich Corporation Bill [Lords],
  As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.
  Scarborough Corporation Bill [Lords],
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  Surrey County Council Bill [Lords] (by Order),
  Third Reading deferred till Friday.
  Oldham Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
  Uckfield Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords] (by Order),
  As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the Third time.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 220 and 246, relating to Private Bills, be suspended until the Summer Adjournment.
  Ordered, That, as regards Private Bills to be returned by the House of Lords with Amendments, such Amendments (if Unopposed) shall be considered forthwith.
  Ordered, That, as regards Private Bills returned, or to be returned, by the House of Lords with Amendments, such Amendments (if Opposed) shall be considered at such time as the Chairman of Ways and Means may determine.
  Ordered, That, when it is intended to propose any Amendments thereto, a copy of such Amendments shall be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office, and notice given on the day on which the Bill shall have been returned from the House of Lords.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Nottingham Corporation Bill [Lords] be re-committed to the former Committee in respect of Clauses 44 and 46.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 236 and 237 be suspended, and that the Committee on the re-committed Bill have leave to sit and proceed forthwith.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 5) Bill [Lords],

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 6) Bill [Lords],

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 7) Bill [Lords],

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No.8) Bill [Lords],

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 9) Bill [Lords],

  Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (Water) Bill [Lords],

  Read a Second time, and committed.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILLS [Lords].
  Ordered, That, in the case of the Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 4) Bill [Lords], Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 5) Bill [Lords], Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 6) Bill [Lords], Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 7) Bill [Lords], Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 8) Bill [Lords], Ministry of Health Provisional Orders

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  Confirmation (No. 9) Bill [Lords], and Ministry of Health Provisional Orders Confirmation (Water) Bill [Lords], Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bills To-morrow.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  BRITISH SUBJECTS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can give any estimate of the number of British subjects resident abroad otherwise than in the British Empire; and what is the normal and approximate number of British subjects who visit foreign countries from this country in a year without taking up their residence abroad?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Austen Chamberlain): There is no information available or procurable which would enable me to give even a rough estimate, in reply to either part of the hon. and gallant Member's question.

  ABYSSINIA (SLAVE TRADING).
  Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if it is a fact that slave owning and slave trading is still of a widespread nature in Abyssinia; and will he instruct the British representative in Abyssinia to acquaint all British nationals that trading in slaves is a punishable offence under British law whether committed in this country or abroad?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The status of slavery is recognised by Abyssinian law. Slave trading is declared illegal by edict, but continues surreptitiously, especially in the provinces furthest from the capital. I do not consider it necessary to issue special instructions to His Majesty's Minister at Addis Ababa.

  CHINA.

    SHANGHAI DISTURBANCES.
    Mr. FORRESTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the diplomatic body, as a result of its investigations of the recent trouble in Shanghai, recommended the dismissal of one of the chief British police officers, any effect is being given to this recommendation; and whether he has received any advices from China indicating that the postponement of remedial action will be likely to have a prejudicial effect upon British prestige and commerce?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I must refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to questions by the hon. Members for South-East Essex (Mr. Looker and Saffron Walden (Mr. Foot Mitchell).
    Mr. FORRESTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, according to the latest reports received from Shanghai, there were any arms stored in the police station in that town at the time the attack was made on it and in connection with which numerous lives were lost?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: It was stated in a telegraphic report from His Majesty's Chargé d' Affaires at Peking dated the 11th June that the police station at Shanghai was full of arms. No modification of that statement is contained in any later reports.
    Mr. TREVELYANasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Report of the diplomatic commission on the Shanghai shooting has now been received by the Foreign Office; whether the findings of the commission were unanimous; and whether they will be published and acted upon?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The Report is on the way, but will not reach the Foreign Office until the middle of next month. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. Until the Report has been received and considered, I cannot answer the last part of the question.

    BOXER INDEMNITY FUNDS.
    Captain BRASSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs

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    whether, in view of the present disturbances in China and of the general unrest amongst the student classes in that country, His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of not using the Boxer indemnity funds for educational purposes in China at the present time?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The investigation of the best uses to which the Boxer Indemnity funds can be put is bound to take a considerable time, and I trust that long before this investigation is over the present troubles in China will have ceased. I may add that I believe that it is the intention of the Committee that some of its members should go out to China and confer with Chinese on the spot as to the best uses to which the funds can be applied.

    HONAN COAL MINES (PEKING SYNDICATE).
    Mr. FORRESTasked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Honan coal mines of the Peking Syndicate are still closed; and whether, seeing that the Chinese Government has offered full protection, he will say why the mines are not re-opened?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My latest information on this subject is to the effect that the managing director of the mines, accompanied by an official from the Chinese Foreign Office, has left for Honan in order to arrange for the re-opening of the pits.

  RUSSIA (BRITISH EMBASSY).
  Mr. THURTLEasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Embassy in Russia and its contents have now been returned to His Majesty's representative in that country; and whether His Majesty's Government now regards this matter as closed?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The former Embassy building in Petrograd was not the property of His Majesty's Government, so that the question of its return does not arise; it was a leasehold, and I think the period of the lease has now expired. The Soviet Government has informed His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires in Moscow that instructions have been issued for the property of the
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  British Embassy in Leningrad to be handed over, and the necessary arrangements for receiving this property are now under consideration.

  RUBBER EXPORTS (RESTRICTIONS).
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any representations from, or on behalf of, the United States Government on the question of restrictions in the export of crude rubber?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: His Majesty's Government have received representations from the United States Government through the United States Ambassador.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the nature of the representations, and can he say whether any reply was made to them?
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think I ought to state the contents of the representations at this stage. The reply that I made was that I would take them into most serious and immediate consideration.
  Mr. BROADasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the growing indignation at the rising prices of rubber and the fear of injury to those trades and industries using this commodity, with resulting increase of unemployment; and whether, seeing that this position is largely due to the operation of the restriction of the export of lubber from Ceylon under the Stevenson ordnance producing a shortage in the market, he is prepared to revise or rescind this ordinance in the interest of trade and commerce, and so put an end to the present high prices?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore):My right hon. Friend would refer the hon. Member to the Statement which he made in this House on Monday last.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    SINGAPORE BASE.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty

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    what personnel for the repair and upkeep of the new dockyard at Singapore and work on His Majesty's vessels it is intended to employ; what proportion of the persons so employed will be British, and Who will the other persons be; when it is proposed to send the British personnel out, or whether they are already on the spot; and what housing arrangements are being made for them?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Davidson): The ultimate number of officers and men to be employed on the repair and upkeep of the naval base at Singapore and work on His Majesty's ships has not yet been decided, but the following personnel will be employed on the arrival of the floating dock for upkeep of the dock, and in connection with repairs to ships:
    British:

    5 officers,

    12 chargemen and mechanics.

    Native:

    About 157.

    Permanent housing accommodation will be provided for these numbers before the floating dock is installed in about three years' time.

    PAY.
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether it is proposed to make any reduction in the pay of the men in the Royal Fleet Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve, if and when called up for duty;
    (2) whether it is proposed to reduce the pay of the lower deck in the Navy; and whether an opportunity will be afforded to the House to express an opinion before any reduction in the pay of the Navy is made?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: Under the existing Regulations R.F.R. and R.N.R. men called up receive the substantive pay of the corresponding ratings on active service in the Royal Navy. As regards the general question of the reduction of pay, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply of the 6th May to the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) (OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th May, column 925), and that of the Prime Minister of the 8th July to the hon. and gallant Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-
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    Jones) (OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th July, column 413–4).

    SOUTHSEA FETE.
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the naval ratings who form the crews of the field gun battery which will give performances during the forthcoming Southsea fete are not volunteers, they will be granted hurt certificates in the event of any injuries being sustained by them whilst engaged in this work; and whether, in view of the extra expense to which these ratings are put by extraordinary wear and tear of boots, blue suits, and flannels, he will authorise the same treatment as is given to Olympia tournament guns' crews?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I understand that the fête authorities have guaranteed all men taking part against undue damage to clothing, etc.
    Sir B. FALLE: And to life and limb?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman must understand that this is really a display, and not a competition. There is very little danger.
    Sir B. FALLE: If there is any accident, will these men be paid compensation?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I have no doubt.

    WELFARE REQUESTS.
    Sir B. FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that 15 per cent. of the requests of the Welfare Committee were answered with a direct negative as final, and the Committee was directed not to repeat the questions; and, in view of the fact that of the 6 per cent. of the requests granted three were permissions to certain ratings to wear an additional button or white shoes, or have a ventilating hole in cap, at the expense of the rating, if it is intended to dissolve the Committee?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: With regard to the first part of the question, the figure of 15 per cent. is approximately correct, and these requests are not to be repeated. As regards the second part, I am not aware how my hon. Friend arrives at his figure of 6 per cent., but there is no present intention of discontinuing the system of Welfare Conferences.

    SHIPBUILDING PROGRAMME.
    Rear-Admiral BEAMISH(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the apparent discrepancy between the statement he made on the 23rd instant that an annual construction of nine destroyers will be required beginning in the financial year 1926–27, and the table in Command Paper 2476, wherein under the heading 1926–27 no destroyers are to be constructed?
    Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: The White Paper embodies correctly the Cabinet decision upon the naval programme. The summary of this programme, which was read to the House on Thursday last, should be amended accordingly.
    Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider, in view of the attacks that have been made on the Admiralty for bellicosity and wastefulness, as the White Paper is signed by the First Lord it shows that they have been doing their best to reduce the commitments of the country?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Testimonials will come later on.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    NAVAL STORES (PURCHASES).
    Major HORE-BELISHAasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have taken any steps to impress upon other Government Departments requiring stores, which are either in stock in, or could be supplied by, the Royal Dockyards, that such stores should be obtained, wherever possible, from the dockyards rather than from outside contractors?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: Other Government Departments are furnished periodically with a priced catalogue of naval stores used in the Naval Service and kept informed from time to time of changes in prices and descriptions. Further, particulars as to surplus stocks are circulated to other Government Departments which it is considered might be interested before such stores are disposed of by sale. The attention of Departments is specially called to articles manufactured in the dockyards, such as cordage, with a view to supplies being made from dockyard stocks in preference to private sources.
    Major HORE-BELISHA: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the other Departments do make full use of the information?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: Well, they have all the information before them.

    BOARD OF EDUCATION (CHADWICK STREET).
    Mr. HAYESasked the Undersecretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, when the lease of the buildings in Chadwick Street, Westminster, in the occupation of the Board of Education, was renewed by his Department last year, it was known that the premises were infested with bugs and rats; what payment was made to the lessees when the lease was renewed and at what date the lease expires; what rent is paid for the premises; and how much money has been expended in the endeavour to free the buildings from bugs and other vermin?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Locker-Lampson): The accommodation occupied by the Board of Education in Chadwick Street, Westminster, consists of the former Wesleyan Practising School, held on lease by this Department at £1,500 per annum for a term of seven years expiring at Michaelmas, 1927, and of part of an adjacent two-storey temporary building erected partly on land belonging to the Department and partly on land held on lease at £107 10s. per annum till Michaelmas, 1927. No renewal of the leases has yet been effected. The whole of the premises and their contents were very thoroughly cleaned, disinfected and fumigated under expert advice last year when the presence of vermin was reported, at a cost of approximately £950.
    Mr. HAYES: Is there any hope of effectively removing the vermin that now exist there?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: As a matter of fact, these premises have just been examined by the representatives of the London School of Hygiene, and they have reported that there is no vermin there.
    Mr. HAYES: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the staff have to keep tins

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    of insecticide on their desks in order to deal with these pests? Does the hon. Gentleman provide the insecticide?

    BOARD OF TRADE.
    Sir F. WISEasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state, for 1913–14, the total cost of the Board of Trade and the respective costs of the Departments of Mines, Labour, and Transport, stated separately?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Burton Chadwick): The total cost of the Board of Trade, i.e., Main Vote, Class II, 8, in 1913–14, as given in the Appropriation Accounts for that year was £387,446. Separate Departments for Mines, Labour and Transport were not in existence at that date.

    MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.
    Mr. CHARLES EDWARDSasked the Minister of Transport whether it is in accordance with the practice of his Department for any official to hold office in it who has any financial interest in any method of road construction or paving, or in any material used for such work, or in any way to be connected with any firm who supply materials for this purpose?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): In accordance with the general practice of the service, steps are taken to remind the officers of my Department that it is their duty, if they have occasion to come into contact with any matter concerning a business organisation in which they have an interest, to disclose that interest to the head of their department, and to ask that some other officer may deal with the case. If the hon. Member has any reason to suspect any deviation from this practice in connection with any officer, I should be glad if he would communicate with me at once in the matter.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    ARTIFICIAL SILK INDUSTRY.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour if he can arrange for the statistics published monthly in the Labour Gazette showing the numbers of persons unemployed in each industry
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    to be modified, so as to show separately the numbers registered as belonging to the artificial silk industry and the number unemployed at the end of each month?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): The list of 100 industrial groups for which unemployment insurance figures are given monthly in the Ministry of Labour Gazette was adopted, after very careful consideration, as giving, within the permissible limits of labour and space, the most informative groupings which could in practice be made. The suggested further subdivision of the silk group would be inconsistent with the general principles adopted in making up the list, and apart from this would present such difficulties in practice as would make the resultant figures of doubtful value. I regret I cannot, for these reasons, accede to my hon. Friend's request.
    Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: Can the hon. Gentleman console the House with the hope that there is going to be no increase of unemployment in the silk trade?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I should hope not.
    Mr. HARRIS: Is it not a fact that artificial silk is used in the cotton and woollen trade, and therefore the figures could not be separated?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As I have already said, this group contains 100 groups all together, and was arrived at in 1923 after very careful consideration. My right hon. Friend, who has reconsidered the matter, has come to the conclusion that any further subdivision might be actually misleading.

    BUILDING TRADE LABOURERS.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour how many labourers in the building trade are now unemployed?
    Mr. BETTERTON: At 22nd June the number of building trade labourers whose unemployment books were lodged at Employment Exchanges in Great Britain was 20,435.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: In view of the continued unemployment of unskilled labourers in the building trade, is the hon. Gentleman taking any steps to train these men to do skilled work?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I think that is a question which really should be addressed to my right hon. Friend.

    EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Labour what was the maximum number of hours of overtime worked per day, per week, and per month, respectively, during June by an individual employed in the north-eastern division of Employment Exchanges?
    Mr. BETTERTON: On Thursday last information regarding average overtime worked in June in the north-eastern division was furnished to the hon. Member. The further information asked for in this question is not available, and I do not consider I should be justified in authorising the very considerable expenditure of time and money which would be involved in attempting to obtain it.
    Mr. THOMSON: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that an excessive amount of overtime is not being worked in some of these northern Exchanges?
    Mr. BETTERTON: My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the present arrangements are wholly adequate. What happened, as I stated yesterday, was that at the beginning of June there was a good deal of overtime, but this is now being gradually reduced.
    Major HORE-BELISHAasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the pressure of work in the Employment Exchanges and of the amount of overtime which has to be worked by the staffs to cope with it; and what steps he is taking to alleviate the conditions?
    Mr. BETTERTON: This matter has been dealt with in a number of replies to questions in the course of the past week. In particular, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given on 22nd July to the hon. Members for Middlesbrough West and Bethnal Green (South-West), on 27th July to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough East, and yesterday to the hon. Member for Gravesend.
    Major HORE-BELISHA: Is it being remedied?
    Mr. BETTERTON: That point was answered with the last question.

    BENEFIT (WEEKLY INCOME).
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Minister of Labour the amount of weekly income coming into a home which will be taken as determining the availability of insurance benefit for applicants living at home under the new powers which the Minister is seeking at the present time?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The rules to be applied in this connection cannot be finally decided until the Unemployment Insurance Bill becomes law. I may point out, however, that when a discretionary power was previously vested in the Minister the question of family income was left very largely to the discretion of the local employment committees, and I anticipate that the same procedure will be followed under the present Bill.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister not give us some sort of rough idea what are the figures he is using in this connection?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I do not think that arises out of the question. I would much rather give it in debate.

    BENEFIT CLAIMS.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Minister of Labour his estimate of the average weekly number of claims for insurance benefit which will be rejected because the applicants have not been unemployed for six continuous days?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I assume the hon. Member when he speaks of rejections under the proposed new rule refers to cases in which applicants are unemployed for four, five or six days only during a particular spell of unemployment, and, therefore, do not qualify for benefit. I regret it is not possible to give an estimate of the number of such cases.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister not give some estimate in regard to these figures in connection with the new proposals that he has included in his Bill?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The total estimate was given in the Actuary's Report, which the hon. Member remembers was 4,500,000. There is no special estimate for the circumstances which the hon. Member has in mind.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister not give us some idea of the number of people involved, the money figure, that is responsible for the actuarial statement?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I said in answer to the question that I regretted it was not possible to give the number in such cases.
    Mr. LANSBURY: But was not any figure given by the Actuary? How did he arrive at the 4.500,000?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The Actuary arrived at that figure of 4,500,000 by grouping all the cases together. These particular cases were not separately identified.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Would the Minister give us the number of the cases grouped together upon which the Actuary based his statement?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I can give the total sum of 4,500,000.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister give the number of individuals grouped together? We could not get it in Committee. I am trying to get it here?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Perhaps the hon. Member will raise that question in Debate to-morrow.
    Mr. STEPHEN: I could not get it in Committee.

    WOMEN.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the Minister of Labour the number of women's claims for insurance benefit which have been rejected under Section 7 (1) (iii) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, during the three months from August, 1924, and the corresponding figures for the three months beginning 1st January, 1925; the number of such cases reviewed in each case under Section 10 of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1921; and the number of such cases of review in which the applicant was granted benefit?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Under Section 7 (1) (iii) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, as amended by the Unemployment Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1924, the number of women's claims disallowed by the insurance officer was 10,322 from August to October, 1924, and 18,694 from January to March, 1925. These figures represent
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    claims and not necessarily different claimants. There was, of course, a right of appeal to the Court of Referees, and, in certain cases, to the Umpire, but I am unable to say in how many cases this right was exercised or with what result. The figures asked for in the second and third parts of the question are not available.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Minister explain why there is this increase in the second period of these figures—this big increase?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I think probably one explanation is that the condition regarding genuinely seeking work appears for the first time in this connection in the Act of August, 1924, and was more fully operative in the second period.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Does the Minister not think that the increase is due to the policy of the Ministry itself in recent times to try, one way or another, to cut down the number of people?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, I do not know that.

    WOMEN'S TRAINING CENTRE, LIVERPOOL.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the women's training centre in Northumberland Road, Liverpool, was closed on 10th July; whether he will accede to a request for the reopening of this centre early in September; and whether it is proposed to close the centre in Walton Road, Liverpool, from the middle of August till the middle of October?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am informed by the Central Committee on Women's Training and Employment that the centre in Northumberland Road, Liverpool, which as stated in the question was closed on 15th July, will be reopened early in September. It is true that the centre in Walton Road will be closed in the middle of August, but it is proposed to reopen it at the beginning of October.

    EXTENDED BENEFIT (ALIENS).
    Mr. BROCKLEBANKasked the Minister of Labour whether he can now state the number of aliens in receipt of extended benefit on a recent date?
    Mr. BETTERTON: The number of aliens (other than British-born wives or widows of aliens) in receipt of extended benefit on 13th July was 841.

  HOUSING.

    BUILDING TRADE (APPRENTICES).
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Labour the number of apprentices in the building trade; and how many have been added since July, 1924?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I regret that the figures asked for by the hon. Member are not available.

    AUTHORISED SCHEMES.
    Mr. FENBY (for Mr. THOMSON):asked the Minister of Health how many houses have been authorised under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): The numbers of houses authorised under the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924 are 219,651 and 68,681 respectively.

  WORKERS' SPARE TIME.
  Mr. TINNEasked the Minister of Labour whether His Majesty's Government proposes to take any steps to give effect to the recommendations of the International Labour Conference, 1924, relating to the utilisation of workers' spare time proposing legislative action against the misuse of alcohol, against tuberculosis, venereal disease, and gambling?
  Mr. BETTERTON: The action proposed by His Majesty's Government regarding the recommendation to which my hon. Friend refers was set out in Cmd. 2441 (1925), which was laid on the Table of the House on the 22nd June, of which I am sending him a copy. The proposed communication to the Secretary-General of the League described in the Command Paper has now been despatched.

  INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE
  Major RUGGLES-BRISEasked the Minister of Labour by whom the accounts of the International Labour Office are audited; and whether such accounts are available for examination?
  Mr. BETTERTON: Under Article 4 of the regulations made by the Assembly
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  of the League of Nations for the administration of finances of the League, the accounts of the International Labour Office are audited by an auditor appointed by the Council of the League for a period of five years. The audited accounts are made public. The latest issued, those for the year 1923, may be found in Special Supplement No. 27 to the League of Nations Official Journal.
  Sir FREDRIC WISE: May I ask whether the auditor is an Englishman?
  Mr. BETTERTON: I think he is an Italian, but I am not quite sure.
  Mr. EVERARD: Does not the hon. Member think this would be a very good way in which the Government might economise?
  Major RUGGLES-BRISEasked the Minister of Labour how the Advisory Committee on Industrial Hygiene of the International Labour Office is constituted; at what times and places it meets; and whether it is called together and consulted by the Director of the International Labour Office as he may think fit or by the governing body of the International Labour Office?
  Mr. BETTERTON: I will send my hon. and gallant Friend a list of the members of the Correspondence Committee on Industrial Hygiene of the International Labour Office. As its name implies, this Committee is generally consulted by correspondence, but selected members of the Committee meet as occasion requires—usually at Geneva. The Director of the International Labour Office consults members of the Committee by correspondence as and when he thinks fit, but he submits for the approval of the governing body proposals to convene meetings of any of the members.
  Colonel DAY: Could the hon. Member Say how many times the Committee have met during this past 12 months?
  Mr. BETTERTON: I could not.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    PAY.
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Secretary of State for Air whether it is proposed to reduce the rates of pay for men joining

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    the Air Force; and whether, before any reduction of the pay of men in the Air Force is made, an opportunity will be afforded the House to express an opinion for or against any proposed lowering of the pay?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Samuel Hoare): As regards the first part of the question, proposals involving reduced rates of pay for airmen as for other men of the fighting services are under consideration, but no decision has yet been reached. As regards the second part, this is a matter of the arrangement of business of the House, which, as the hon. Member is aware, does not rest with me.
    Captain BRASS: May I ask how the pay before the War compares with the present pay?
    Sir S. HOARE: There was not any pay before the War, because the Air Ministry did not exist then.
    Captain BRASS: What was the pay in the Royal Flying Corps?
    Sir S. HOARE: If the hon. and gallant Member will put a question to the Secretary of State for War and myself on this subject, I think we can give him an answer.

    OFFICERS (TRANSFERS TO RESERVE).
    Captain BRASSasked the Secretary of State for Air how many flying officers who were granted short-service commissions in 1919 and 1920 have now been transferred to the Reserve; and how many more are due for transference in 1925 and1926, respectively?
    Sir S. HOARE: On the assumption that in referring to flying officers my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind officers of the general duties branch, the answer to the first part of the question is 234, to the second, that 19 more are due for transfer to the Reserve during the remainder of 1925, and 151 during 1926.

    COMMISSIONS.
    Captain BRASSasked the Secretary of State for Air the number of short-service commissions granted in 1919 and 1920,respectively, to the flying personnel of the Air Force; and how many of these officers have since been granted permanent commissions?
    Sir S. HOARE: On the assumption that in referring to flying personnel my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind officers of the general duties branch, the answer to the first part of the question is 558 in 1919 and 253 in 1920, to the second, 190.
    Captain BRASS: Do I understand that my right hon. Friend means by the general duties branch only those officers who actually fly?
    Sir S. HOARE: Generally speaking, that is the case.
    Captain BRASS: And not any others?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes.

  MAGISTRATES (WINE AND SPIRIT TRADE).
  Mr. MURROUGH WILSONasked the Attorney-General if he is aware of a rule by which persons connected with the wine and spirit trade who are elected to the position of mayor of a borough are disqualified from acting as magistrates during their term of office?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg): No, Sir. The Lord Chancellor, in accordance with the practice of his predecessors, does not appoint persons who are the holders of licences for the sale of intoxicating liquor to be magistrates; but this does not prevent a person who is connected with the wine and spirit trade, and who is elected to the position of mayor of a borough, from acting as a magistrate during his term of office. He is, however, disqualified by Statute from sitting on the licensing bench.
  Mr. WILSON: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why there should be a rule which disqualifies a man from being appointed a magistrate, although allowing the same man to be a magistrate even in the succeeding year?
  The ATTORNEY - GENERAL: The right to sit during his year of office is a right which the holder of the position of mayor has by Statute. It does not rest on any appointment. My Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor has merely been following the practice, which I think has

  421
  prevailed for a good many years, of not appointing persons who are holders of licences to permanent seats on the bench.
  Sir GRATTAN DOYLE: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding what he has just said, there are in the country numerous magistrates who are holders of licences in their own names?
  Sir H. CROFT: May I ask whether it is also intended to exclude from these licensing benches those who are known to be teetotal fanatics?
  Mr. WILSON: May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether by any stretch of imagination it can be said that a man who is eligible one year is ineligible another year?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter for Debate rather than for Question Time.

  POOR PERSONS (LEGAL AID).
  Dr. SALTERasked the Attorney-General (1) whether he is aware that before a poor person can be granted legal aid in the High Court he must pro vide a deposit of at least £5 and pay all out-of-pocket expenses, and whether any assistance is projected for persons unable to meet such charges: whether he is aware that no assistance is at present granted to persons in receipt of an income of more than £4 per week or worth more than £100: and whether it is proposed in any way to aid those who are able to pay something towards, but not the whole of, the costs and expenses of High Court litigation;
  (2) whether the Report of the Poor Persons Rules Committee proposes any extension of legal aid to new categories of poor persons in respect of High Court actions;
  (3) whether the terms of reference to the new Departmental Committee under the Chairmanship of Mr. Justice Finlay, will enable that Committee to consider and, if thought desirable, recommend the provision of legal aid for persons so poor that they cannot pay any deposit or out of-pocket costs and those able to pay part but not the whole cost, both categories of whom are now excluded from legal aid by the existing Poor Persons Rules?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: With the permission of the House I will answer these questions together. The deposit of 5 required by the existing Rules is directed only in matrimonial cases. Under the new Rules, which have not yet come into operation, it is optional to the Solicitors' Committee whether they will require a deposit. Out-of-pocket expenses are payable, not before a poor person is granted legal aid, but from time to time during the progress of the suit when the conducting solicitor has paid out money for the litigant. The payments for out-of-pocket expenses come out of the £5 deposited so far as that deposit suffices for the purpose, and any balance of the £5 remaining over is repaid to the poor person. The limits of income and capital are as stated in the question, except that wearing apparel, tools of trade, and the subject matter of the proceedings are excluded from the calculations of the capital sum. When the poor person is successful in the litigation, out-of-pocket expenses incurred by him, or on his behalf, are recoverable on taxation from the unsuccessful party.
  The Report of the Poor Persons' Rules Committee (by which I understand the Committee presided over by Mr. Justice Lawrence, which reported in February last) does not propose any extension of the. categories of poor persons as set out in the existing Rules, and it is not pro posed to afford further monetary assistance to poor persons suing or being sued in the High Court. They have already, both under the existing Rules and under the Rules now proposed, exemption from Court fees, the free services of solicitor and counsel, and, when successful, the right to recover out-of-pocket expenses properly incurred from the unsuccessful party. Civil litigation in the High Court is outside the scope of the terms of reference of Mr. Justice Finlay's Committee.

  HUDSON MEMORIAL, HYDE PARK.
  Mr. BASIL PETOasked the Under secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, if a suitable memorial sculpture executed by a British scupltor is provided by public subscription, he will consider replacing the Epstein bas-relief at the bird sanctuary in Hyde Park with it?
  Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSON (for the FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS): The hon. Member will appreciate the difficulty of answering a hypothetical question such, as this. I car, only say that the First Commissioner feels that the suggested replacement of one piece of sculpture by another might intro duce a principle of rather far-reaching application.
  Mr. PETO: Can the hon. Gentleman give me any idea of what is the value in money of this so-called work of art— according to the amount subscribed for it by private subscription?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: It is almost impossible to value a work of art.
  Mr. PETO: What I asked was whether the hon. Gentleman can give me any idea of the money value based upon the amount contributed by private subscriptions? I understand this was presented to the nation. Surely we are entitled to know what was the value of the gift?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am not sure that I understand my hon. Friend.
  Mr. PETO: Can the hon. Gentleman say what it cost?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: If my hon. Friend will put a question down, I will try to give him an answer.
  Mr. HARDIE: Would not the hon. Gentleman who is answering the question be better employed in drawing attention to the state of the Houses of Parliament, and getting money for their reconstruction than in getting money for statues outside?

  ANCIENT MONUMENTS, REPAIRS.
  Mr. B. PETOasked the Under secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, seeing that the reparation work at the Tower of London and Farleigh Castle in. the past six years have cost, respectively, £153,207 and £7,572, and the total expenditure on the repair of ancient monuments and historic buildings during these six years has been £950,680, and that further works are being commenced, in view of the urgent need for public economy and houses, he will postpone any further work of repair of ancient buildings for the present?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: The First Commissioner considers that it would be a profound mistake to postpone necessary works of repair to ancient monuments and historic buildings, in which the public take a great and growing interest. I must point out that the figures quoted by my hon. Friend cover the whole expenditure on monuments and historic buildings, including the cost of care taking. The figures for the Tower of London include the wages of the Yeomen Warders as well as the cost of the police who were employed there until 1923. I should also like to remind my hon. Friend that against the expenditure must be set the receipts from admission fees, amounting last year to over £28,700.
  Mr. PETO: May I ask whether the public would not have paid even more for admission to many of these ancient monuments if they were not defaced by modern pointing?
  Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask whether the Department traces this new-found zeal for destruction or for allowing ancient monuments to go wrong to Bolshevist propaganda?

  HOUSE OF COMMONS.

    AUTUMN RECESS.
    Colonel DAYasked the Prime Minister if he can make any statement with reference to the forthcoming Recess of this House?
    Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will shortly make a statement.
    Colonel DAY: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "shortly"? Does he mean this afternoon?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not mean this afternoon, but that is as far as I can define my meaning.

    REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT (EMPLOYES).
    Colonel DAYasked the right hon. Member for Cheltenham, as representing the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms Committee, how many persons are employed in the department under the control of the Kitchen Committee, both male and female, respectively: how many receive either full or half-pay during all Recesses;

    425
    and what provision is being made for those who are not entitled to receive un employment benefit during this coming Recess?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: In reply to the question of the hon. Member, the number of persons employed by the Kitchen Committee is 69 males and 45 females. Of this number, 21 males and 15 females are in receipt of full or half-pay during all the Recesses. The remaining 78 receive full pay during the Easter and Whitsun Vacations. Their engagement terminates a week after the commencement of the Long Recess and they are almost always re-engaged when Parliament re-assembles.
    Colonel DAY: As there are a great many of these people who have no income at all during the Vacation, cannot the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Treasury to make some grant to them, so that they may have some means of subsistence?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: I may inform the hon. Member that, although we are not in a position to give them full pay, which would cost about £1,000, we always see that they have occupations, and they generally succeed in getting good places at the seaside and elsewhere during the Recess.
    Colonel DAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how the Kitchen Committee see that these people have occupations during the Recess?
    Mr. J. JONES: Are these employés entitled to receive anything under the Unemployment Insurance Act?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: No, Sir, they are not insurable.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Are we to under stand that this department makes a profit, and, if so, could not some of that profit be devoted to finding money for these people when they are actually out of work?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: We do not exist to make profit.
    Mr. MACKINDER: But is it not a fact that a profit is made?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: It is a very small profit, and not sufficient to enable
    426
    us to do what is suggested. We have had no complaints at all from any members of our staff.
    Mr. MACKINDER: On a point of Order. May I ask what opportunity we can have of raising what is undoubtedly a real grievance in the minds of some employee of this House. I want to know when and where we can have an opportunity of raising this question.
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is a Committee appointed by the House, upon which all parts of the House are represented.
    Mr. MACKINDER: Seeing that this is a matter which affects the whole of the Members of this House and the staff of this House, I want to ask when can a Member have an opportunity of raising this very important matter in Debate?
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Is it not a fact that, if all the Members who owe the Kitchen Committee money for the food of which they have partaken in the Dining Room were to pay up, we should be able to give the workers who work under us, such as waiters, better conditions than we do?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member ought to put that question down.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Seeing that there is no Estimate that I know of for the Kitchen Committee, I wish to ask how can a Member of this House bring this matter to the attention of the House.?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Some years ago there was an annual subsidy for the Kitchen Committee, and that, of course, gave an opportunity in Committee of Supply for discussion. But that subsidy has been withdrawn and there is no public money now involved. Therefore, I doubt if such a discussion would be in order, even on the Consolidated Fund Bill. This is a new point to me, and if the hon. Member will allow me, I will consider whether there is any other way of raising this matter.
    Mr. SPENCER: Are you aware that private people, who have servants, when they go on holidays not only pay them their usual wages, but very often give them an allowance as well while they are away. And if private people can do that, surely the House of Commons can treat its servants in the same way!
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: There has been a very serious accusation made by the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Kirkwood) with regard to unpaid accounts. May I ask the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee if there is any foundation for that accusation?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Questions of that kind do not arise out of the question on the Paper.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: With great respect, may I point out that all this will appear in the public papers to-morrow, and it will be supposed that Members of this House, including the Members of the Government, are in debt to the Kitchen Committee. Cannot we get this matter cleared up?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: The accounts are always paid at the end of the Session. There may be a little dilatoriness about it, but ultimately the accounts are always paid.
    Mr. J. JONES: May I ask the Chair man of the Kitchen Committee whether the rumour is true which is going round the House that one Member of the House owes the Kitchen Committee no less than £72, extending over a period of three months?
    Sir J. AGG-GARDNER: That is quite untrue. There is no foundation for it at all.
    HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!
    Mr. JONES: I will not withdraw at all.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is very unfortunate that such innuendoes should be made without the hon. Member satisfying himself about them. I have undertaken to see if there is any way in which the House of Commons can deal with this matter. It might be desirable that, in future, a token Vote should be put down, which would leave control with the House. I will see what can be done. I think the House should have some opportunity.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Would it be possible to have the defaulters' list posted up in the House every week?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think we have given quite enough time to this question.
    Colonel DAY: A lot of people will go hungry during the Recess.

  ECONOMY COMMITTEE.
  Mr. BROCKLEBANKasked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to announce the names of the three members of the new Economy Committee?
  Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir; but the Prime Minister hopes to be in a position to give the names shortly.

  STANDING COMMITTEES.
  Mr. NAYLORasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to advise the adoption of the recommendations made in the Special Report from the Chairmen's Panel for a reduction in the number of Standing Committees from six to five, and a reduction in the basic number of members of such Committees?
  Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: The Prime Minister is not in a position to make any statement in regard to this matter.

  FIGHTING SERVICES (ADMINIS- TRATIVE COSTS).
  Major-General Sir FREDERICK SYKESasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the value of all information being made available which will assist in consideration of the action being taken to reduce the administrative costs of the fighting services, he is prepared to arrange for the publication of the evidence upon which the conclusions of the Weir Committee were based and of the Report of the Committee?
  Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend regrets that he cannot supplement the very full statement made on this subject on the 30th May, 1923, of which I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a copy.

  TYBURN SITE, MARBLE ARCH.
  Mr. TREVELYANasked the Under secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commis-

  429
  sioner of Works, whether he is aware that the stone in the road, near the Marble Arch, which marks the site of Tyburn has been covered over with road-repairing material; whether he will take steps to prevent the obliteration of the stone; and whether he will consider setting a tablet into one of the neighbouring walls in order to secure a correct record?
  Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON; The stone was covered with tar during road repairs, and the tar has now been removed. A tablet already exists on the balustrade of the park drawing attention to the stone in the road.

  ARMY STOP-WATCHES.
  Mr. HURDasked the Secretary of State for War what is the stock of service stop watches made in Switzerland or of other foreign manufacture which is in the hands of his Department; and when it is expected that this stock will be exhausted?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King): The only stop-watches of foreign manufacture in stock are those manufactured wholly or partly in Switzerland. There are 460 of these. The stock may be expected to last for several years.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a fact that a great many of the products in the possession of the Admiralty and the War Office are of foreign production, such as rubber tyres for motor cars, and is there any possible help for this?

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (MEDICAL SERVICE).
  Mr. MELLERasked the Minister of Health (1) what is the present procedure for appointing the chairmen of the medical service, the pharmaceutical service, and the joint services sub-committees of an insurance committee; whether such procedure has worked effectively since the inception of the National Health Insurance Act; and whether he has received any request from an insurance committee for amending the present Regulations;
  (2) whether he has received from the insurance committee for the county of London a representation protesting
  430
  against the National Health Insurance (Medical Benefit) Amendment Regulations (No. 2), 1925, which provides for the appointment of the chairman of the medical service sub-committee by the Minister of Health failing the unanimous vote of the sub-committee, and that such member may not be a member of the insurance committee: and what action he proposes to take thereon?
  Sir K. WOOD: Under the previous Regulations the chairman of the medical service sub-committee was required to be elected by the approved society representatives on the sub-committee and the medical practitioners appointed to be members of it, or in default of any selection by them by the neutral members of the insurance committee. No request for an amendment of the Regulations has been received from any insurance committee, but, in London, failure to find a chairman commanding the confidence of both parties led to the withdrawal of the medical representatives, and the machinery for the investigation of complaints was brought to a standstill. A similar situation has arisen recently in Southampton. The amending Regulations of July, 1925, arose out of the difficulty in London, and represented a settlement which my right hon. Friend understood to be acceptable to both parties to the dispute. My right hon. Friend has recently received representations from the London Insurance Committee against the new Regulations, but he can see no other method of pre venting the recurrence in future of a deadlock which is prejudicial to the administration of medical benefit and to the interests of insured persons.

  CHILD WELFARE CLINIC, NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE.
  Mr. CONNOLLYasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the officials of the Child Welfare Clinic, Portland Street, Newcastle - upon - Tyne, when making inquiries into the circumstances of unemployed parents of children receiving medical nourishment at cost price, issue a questionnaire containing the words, "How much dole are you in receipt of?" and will he issue instructions that the words "State unemployment benefit" be substituted for "dole"?
  Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend has no information as to the facts stated in the first part of the question, but he is in communication with the local authority in the matter.

  GOVERNMENT OFFICERS, WEST AFRICA (ILL-HEALTH).
  Mr. EVERARDasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the percentage of Government officers who have proceeded home from West Africa before the completion of their term of duty owing to ill health since the period of service was increased to 18 months, as compared to the period when the term of service was only 12 months?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It is not possible to give the figures for which my hon. Friend asks. Under the new West African Leave Regulations there is no fixed "term of duty." An officer serves from 12 to 24 months at the discretion of the Governor, who takes into consideration the necessities of the Service, the character of the stations at which the officer has been serving, and his medical history. My right hon. Friend's medical advisers are considering the best method of obtaining reliable statistics in future of the number of European officials sent home from West Africa by reason of ill-health.
  Mr. EVERARD: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the larger business firms and all the banks in West Africa find that they get value for their money by having their employés over there for one year only, and does not he think it would be better for the Government to follow their example?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It entirely depends on the circumstances in which an officer is serving. Certainly that would be true in some districts, while it would not be in others. It varies according to the conditions and according to the physical fitness of the individual.

  YOUNG OFFENDERS, SCOTLAND (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY).
  Captain BENNasked the Secretary for Scotland the names of the
  432
  members of Sheriff Morton's commit tee inquiring into the treatment of young offenders; and whether any women are to be appointed to the said committee?
  Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland): The committee referred to is constituted as follows:

  George Morton, Esq., K.C., Sheriff of Forfarshire (Chairman).

  The Right Hon. William Adamson, M.P.

  Dr. G. C. Cossar.

  George Duncan, Esq.

  Miss N. H. Irwin.

  W. W. McKechnie, Esq.

  William L. McKerrow, Esq.

  C. A. Macpherson, Esq.

  Bailie Mrs. Millar.

  Lord Polwarth, C.B.E.

  It will be seen that the committee includes two women members.

  IMPERIAL DEFENCE (COSTS).
  Sir F. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the costs incurred, for the latest date, for defence in Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, and also the cost in 1913?
  Major HENNESSY (for Mr. CHURCHILL): My right hon. Friend is having a statement prepared, which he hopes to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT either to-day or to-morrow.
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that a similar question was on the Paper last week, and that we were informed that the information could not be given?
  Major HENNESSY: I am not aware of that.

  MOTOR VEHICLES (SPEED).
  Sir PHILIP RICHARDSONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the excessive speed of motor omnibuses and commercial vehicles; and whether the police have instructions to see that the law as to speed is strictly observed in the case of such vehicles?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): Yes, Sir, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the recent return of prosecutions and convictions of drivers of motor vehicles for exceeding the speed limit, of which I am sending him a copy.
  Sir P. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Baronet aware that there were no prosecutions in the outlying districts of Surrey in the case of omnibuses and public vehicles? Does that suggest that there were no offences against the speed regulations?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No, Sir, that is not so. I thought my hon. Friend was referring to the Metropolitan district. The outlying districts of Surrey are, of course, under the Surrey Police. I will try to get the figures for my hon. Friend.
  Mr. ERSKINE: Is the right hon. Baronet aware that racing of motor omnibuses in Pimlico is of daily occurrence, much to the danger of the public?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I was not aware of that, but I will take special care that police shall be put on in the hon. Member's constituency.

  LUNDY ISLAND.
  Mr. B. PETOasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the fact that Lundy Island is offered for sale; and whether he will take steps to prevent the sale to any person not a British subject or to any person acting as agent for any foreign government?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The pur chase of Lundy by an alien or any person acting as agent for a foreign Government would not affect in any way the jurisdiction exercisable over the island, and in the circumstances I do not think that any action is required by His Majesty's Government.

  BRIXTON PRISON (RELATIVES' VISITS).
  Mr. GROVESasked the Home Secretary whether he has personally inspected the new method of visiting boxes installed at Brixton Prison;
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  whether he is aware that the old-fashioned perforated partition has been abolished and polished plate glass installed; and whether he will advise the installation of such conversation boxes at all prisons in the kingdom?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As far as possible, visits to prisoners by relatives are allowed to be paid in ordinary rooms, without the intervention of screens of any kind. Where this cannot be allowed, the glass screens to which the hon. Member refers are being substituted experiment ally for the old wire screens. Their use for this purpose may be extended if they prove satisfactory.

  CHANNELSEA, STRATFORD (DROWNING).
  Mr. GROVESasked the Horns Secretary if he has any particulars showing the number of children who have been drowned or have been rescued from those parts of the Channelsea running through Stratford; and whether it is the intention of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis to take steps to make better provision for the prevention of these dangers at this spot?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The number of children drowned in Stratford in this river during the last four years is four, of whom two were playing on a public part of the banks and two on enclosed private premises. The police patrol all parts of the banks to which the public have access, and pay special attention during the summer holidays. It is not within their power to do more than they already do.

  TEXTILE INDUSTRY DISPUTE (YORKSHIRE).
  Mr. MACKINDER (for Mr. RILEY)asked the Minister of Labour what is the present position with regard to the dispute in the textile industry in the West Riding of Yorkshire; and what steps he is taking to endeavour to bring about a settlement?
  Mr. BETTERTON: My right hon. Friend is remaining in close touch with the developments, and will not fail to take any action which is open to him. for the purpose of assisting the parties to reach a settlement of the dispute.
  Mr. MACKINDER: In view of the fact that there is a strong Industrial Council, which has been functioning for many years, will the hon. Gentleman try to get a meeting of the Industrial Council?
  Mr. BETTERTON: As I said in the answer, my right hon. Friend will not fail to take any action that is open to him for the purpose of assisting the parties. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not press me, because I am most anxious to say nothing which might either aggravate the situation or be liable to misconstruction.
  Mr. MACKINDER: Has not the hon. Gentleman seen the statement that proceeded from the employés' side of the Industrial Council, that they are pre-
  pared to meet if the Industrial Council is called together?
  Mr. BETTERTON: No; I have not seen that.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock, and that the Proceedings on Navy and Air Expenditure, 1923–24, and on the Telegraph (Money) Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Austen Chamberlain.]
The House divided: Ayes, 220; Noes, 111.

Division No. 324.]

AYES.

[3.45 p.m.

Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

Drewe, C.

Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

Edwards, John H. (Accrington)

Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)

Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

Elliot, Captain Walter E.

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Elveden, Viscount

Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

England, Colonel A.

Hume Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Balniel, Lord

Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

Hurd, Percy A.

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Hurst, Gerald B.

Barnett, Major Sir Richard

Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)

Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)

Fairfax, Captain J. G.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Falle, Sir Bertram G.

Jephcott, A. R.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Fermoy, Lord

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Betterton, Henry B.

Finburgh, S.

Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Fleming, D. P.

Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)

Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

Ford, P J.

Kidd. J. (Linlithgow)

Brass, Captain W.

Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

King, Captain Henry Douglas

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Forrest W.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Briggs, J. Harold

Foster Sir Harry S.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony

Lamb, J. Q.

Brown, Maj. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

Ganzoni, Sir John

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

Gates, Percy

Loder, J. de V.

Buckingham, Sir H.

Goff Sir Park

Lougher, L.

Burney, Lieut. Com. Charles D.

Gower, Sir Robert

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Butler, Sir Geoffrey

Grant, J. A.

Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

Greene, W. P. Crawford

Lumley, L. R.

Caine, Gordon Hall

Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w. E)

MacAndrew, Charles Glen

Campbell, E. T.

Grotrian, H. Brent

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Cautley, Sir Henry S.

Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

McLean, Major A.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

MacRobert, Alexander M.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).

Hammersley, S. S.

Malone, Major P. B.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

Hanbury, C.

Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

Chapman, Sir S

Hannon ' Patrick Joseph Henry

Margesson, Captain D.

Christie, J. A.

Harland, A.

Meller, R. J.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

Harrison, G. J. C.

Merriman, F. B.

Clarry, Reginald George

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Haslam, Henry C.

Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)

Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

Hawke, John Anthony

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.

Cooper, A. Duff

Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

Cope, Major William

Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

Moore, Sir Newton J.

Couper, J. B.

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Moreing, Captain A. H.

Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Henniker-Hughan, vice-Adm. Sir A.

Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Murchison, C. K.

Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)

Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

Hilton, Cecil

Nelson, Sir Frank

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

Homan, C. W. J.

Nuttall, Ellis

Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

Oman, Sir Charles William C.

Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

Hopkins, J. W. W.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Doyle, Sir N. Grattan

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

Preston, William

Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)

Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

Price, Major C. W. M.

Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

Warrender, Sir Victor

Raine, W.

Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Waterhouse, Captain Charles

Rawson, Alfred Cooper

Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Strickland, Sir Gerald

Wells, S. R.

Remer, J. R.

Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Ropner, Major L.

Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

Wise, Sir Fredric

Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

Sandeman, A. Stewart

Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)

Sanders, Sir Robert A.

Tinne, J. A.

Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).

Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Tichfield, Major the Marquess of

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

Skelton, A. N.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)

Waddington, R.

Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Wallace, Captain D. E.

Barnston.

Sprot, Sir Alexander

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

NOES.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

Harris, Percy A.

Salter, Dr. Alfred

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Hayes, John Henry

Scurr, John

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

Ammon, Charles George

Hirst, G. H.

Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Attlee, Clement Richard

Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Baker, Walter

Hore-Belisha, Leslie

Sitch, Charles H.

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

Smillie, Robert

Barnes, A.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

Barr, J.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Smith, H. B. Leos (Keighley)

Batey, Joseph

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

Beckett, John (Gateshead)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Stephen, Campbell

Broad, F. A.

Kelly, W. T.

Sutton, J. E.

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kennedy, T.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Cape, Thomas

Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

Thurtle, E.

Clowes, S.

Kenyon, Barnet

Tinker, John Joseph

Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

Kirkwood, D.

Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

Collins. Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

Lansbury, George

Wallhead, Richard C.

Compton, Joseph

Lawson, John James

Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

Connolly, M.

Livingstone, A. M.

Warn, G. H.

Crawfurd, H. E.

Lowth, T.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Davies Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Lunn, William

Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

Day, Colonel Harry

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)

Welsh, J. C.

Dennison, R.

Mackinder, W.

Westwood, J.

Dunnico, H.

Maxton James

Wheatley, Rt. Hon. L.

Fenby, T. D.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A.L.

Montague, Frederick

Whiteley, W.

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Morris, R. H.

Wiggins William Martin

Gibbins Joseph

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Wilkinson, Ellen C.

Gillett, George M.

Oliver, George Harold

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

Gosling, Harry

Paling, W.

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Ponsonby, Arthur

William, T. (York, Don Valley)

Greenall, T.

Potts, John S.

Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

Ritson, J.

Wright, W.

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth Pontypool)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)

Groves, T.

Robinson, W. C. (York., W. R., Elland)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rose, Frank H.

Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.

Hardie, George D.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Henderson.

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL.
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Sir Robert Sanders to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the National Library of Scotland Bill [Lords]).
Report to lie upon the Table.

BILLS REPORTED.
Rutherglen Burgh Bill,
Reported [Preamble not proved];
Report to lie upon the Table.
Nottingham Corporation (re-committed) Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to,

Teachers (Superannuation) Bill,

Greenwich Hospital (Disused Burial Ground) Bill,

439

London County Council (General Powers) Bill,

Slough Trading Company Bill,

West Cheshire Water Board Bill,

Stockton-on-Tees Corporation Bill,

with Amendments.
Amendments to,
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 246.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [18th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

  SUPPLY.

    NAVY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1925–26.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for expenditure on Shipbuilding not provided for in the original Estimates for the year, after allowing for anticipated reductions in Expenditure and additional Appropriations-in-Aid on Navy Votes generally, namely:—

    Expenditure.

    Appropriations-in-Aid.

    Vote 8, Shipbuilding, &c.—

    £

    £

    Section I.—Personnel

    25,470

    —

    Section III.—Contract Work.

    429,800

    —

    Vote9, Naval Armaments

    10,000

    —

    £465,270

    —

    Less:

    Vote 1, Wages, &c, of Officers, Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, &c.

    150,000

    Vote 2, Victualling and Clothing for the Navy.

    177,070

    Vote 8. Section II, Matériel.

    58,100

    80,000

    385,170

    80,000

    £465,170

    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson): I think it will be for the convenience of the Committee, before the main Debate starts, that I should give some detailed information with regard to the Supplementary Estimate which is now before the Committee. In the first place, the Committee will observe that it is a Token Vote, because of the fact that when the new construction programme was announced, an undertaking was given by the Admiralty, that insofar as it was possible, the expenditure which would fall within this current financial year should be met out of economies in the Navy Vote. The total sum which is to be
    458
    expended this year, as hon. Members will see, is £527,170, and savings amounting to that sum, less £100, are to be found under the various heads contained in the Supplementary Estimate. The first heading is Vote 1, where an estimated saving is suggested of £160,000. I want to make it quite clear that these savings cannot be found, and will not be found, because of loose estimating. They will have to be found because of drastic economies, which were not anticipated when the main Estimates were introduced. Now the £150,000 on Vote 1, it is hoped, will be found by a very drastic attempt to deal with the manning of the Fleet. The sum of £120,000 which hon. Members will see arising under Vote 2, sub-head 6 (Victualling and Clothing), and a further sum of £57,070, under subhead M, will be consequent on those reductions in the manning of the Fleet. I should also like to explain that a sum of £120,000, which will be seen against sub-head K 1, will be an anticipated saving in the price of oil, and by using a lower grade oil for certain purposes than hitherto has been the case. A further sum of £80,000 is expected by increased Appropriations-in-Aid which it is hoped will result partly from prices, but also because we hope to get a greater amount of repayment money by the hiring out of Admiralty tankers. Those are the main Votes of the Supplementary Estimate.
    4.0 P.M.
    I want to make the Committee aware of the fact that, owing to the very limited time the Admiralty have had to prepare this Estimate, it is not possible to say at this moment that under these particular Votes these anticipations will be realised, and that the money may not be more usefully, much more economically saved by economies elsewhere. At the same time, I would qualify that by saying, wherever it is possible to get economies, even over and above these, the Admiralty will do their very utmost to obtain them, but I do want the Committee to believe that this is—in one sense, it is a sketch Estimate—the best Estimate the Admiralty can produce as to where we can try to get savings, and it may be these savings may be supplemented, or, alternatively, may have to be found under other heads, because, in the 48 hours at our disposal, it was impossible to review the whole field in detail. So much for that. So

    459
    far as the White Paper is concerned, perhaps there is a. little information the Committee would like to have. I think the Committee ought to have the information with regard to the time in which ships under the old programme will probably be completed. Of the two battleships, the "Nelson" is to be completed towards the end of next year, and the "Rodney" by April, 1927. Two of the five cruisers will be completed in May, 1927, and, as far as one can foresee, three probably in October, 1927. The minelayer and destroyers will be finished next year, 1926. Perhaps I might also refer to the sum of £939,000 to which reference is made in the paragraph immediately below the programme of construction. That is, in fact, the 12½ per cent. shadow cut which was made on Vote 8—the construction vote—and, if construction proceeds, as it says here, uninterruptedly, it is probable that the sum which was estimated for of £6,708,567 will be increased by the difference between that and the shadow cut to £7,647,000. So far as the sum at the bottom of the table of new proposals goes—I think the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is interested in this—the sum of £58,000,000, which is the whole programme, does include everything, guns, torpedoes, boats, etc. It is the complete cost of the new ships.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Could the hon. Gentleman tell us something about the cost of the upkeep of these additional ships?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: No, I am afraid I could not.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Could those figures be obtained?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I will try before the Debate closes.
    Captain BENN: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much it costs per year to keep one of these cruisers in commission?
    Mr. DAVIDSON: I am sure that I shall be able to find that out later, but I have not got it here. On the last page of the White Paper hon. Members will see a statement to the effect that
    "In the light of all past experience, however, it is reasonable to anticipate that
    460
    payments will not fall clue at the above rate and a deduction of 10 per cent. or more over part of the programme will almost certainly be made in order to arrive at the estimates laid before Parliament in any given year."
    I think that needs some explanation. Contract work is not really a matter over which the Admiralty has complete control. Materials do not come to hand, stoppages occur in private yards, and there are unforeseen circumstances. Judging by past experience, it was considered wise to state that possibly in any one year retardation of work would take place, and it was estimated that that retardation would amount approximately to about 10 per cent. That, of course, simply throws the expenditure over to the next year, and therefore, with that in mind, the Committee will be able to study these figures with greater accuracy. I think those are the main points of detail of the Estimate, and with these brief remarks perhaps the Debate might proceed.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £50.
    I am sure that the whole Committee will be profoundly disappointed by the inadequacy of the statement to which we have just listened. I think the Admiralty ought to be reminded that this is not merely a question of spending a million or two of money; this is the whole question of naval policy, and we ought to receive much fuller information as to why the Admiralty have produced this programme and not another one. I will put these questions perhaps a little more specifically as I go on, but I think that preliminary reflection ought to be made, because, speaking for myself, I felt that my hon. Friend was only just getting his wind when he resumed his seat. The Committee and the country are facing what is not merely a continuation of policy but the beginning of a new policy, and we ought to know exactly, first of all, where we stand, and, secondly, where we are going and where we are going to find ourselves when we come to the end.
    A great deal is said about economy, and I notice that some of the attacks and criticisms that are made upon the Admiralty are based solely on the question of economy. So far as I am concerned, and I think so far as my hon. Friends around me are concerned, we cannot test large public expenditure solely on the question of economy, because economy involves a

    461
    system of spending as well as a system of saving. But in view of the world situation, a Government that comes down and confesses, as the Government have just confessed through the mouth of their spokesman, that they have not adequately considered this matter, and then, without adequate consideration, tell us that they are going to spend £58,000,000 in the production of certain ships, when a few days ago they told us that they could not find one-quarter of that money to make a pensions scheme adequate, ought to be censured. If the Government would only spend £12,000,000 per annum during their term of office in developing the national resources of this country, they would do far more to promote national security and to prepare for any crisis through which the country may have to go than by spending that sum in five years upon this naval shipbuilding programme. It is not only £58,000,000. We are told that before the Debate ends we are going to have some estimate of the upkeep. Again, surely the Government are doing much less than their duty in coming here and merely telling us about the expenditure of £58,000,000 without telling us how much that is going to cost per annum to keep going. It is not a sum of £58,000,000 which we are voting to-day. I do not venture even to name it; I do not hazard any estimate, but it is a sum enormously greater than that, and if to-day we allow this token Vote to go through, we are placing burdens upon the backs of the taxpayers that the Government, when they were fighting the last election and giving professions of their faith, pledged themselves right up to the hilt to do everything which they could to avoid.
    What is the problem that the Government have had to face? We do not build ships for the fun of building them. We do not even build ships for the purpose of providing work for the unemployed. It may be, and it ought to be, when a Minister sits down to consider the whole facts of the case, that, if in an economical way he can provide some work for the unemployed, he is perfectly justified in doing what he can to do that. But to make that the sole reason for providing this work is very bad policy, and I do not believe that any Government would pursue it. Therefore, there must be some reason for the building, and the first and appropriate
    462
    reason for an extension and an expansion of shipbuilding like this must be to provide against a national danger. Now where is it? Will any spokesman from the Government Front Bench, surveying the world, its problems, its difficulties, and its dangers, point to a danger of naval warfare that this country is going to run within the next 10 years? I limit it to that period, because it will all depend upon how foreign policy develops whether that danger is going to arise or not. But during the next 10 or 12 years there is no possibility of any development of a political situation which would make a war necessary or inevitable, and, should things get worse within that period than they are now, there is no possibility of any probable enemy being able to develop its shipbuilding resources and facilities to such an extent as they could catch us unawares if we held back just now and beat time rather than make the progress that this programme suggests we should.
    Nobody will say that America is a possible enemy. No one will say that Japan is a possible enemy. If anybody imagines that France is a possible enemy, then the problem, in view of modern developments of arms, is not a naval problem at all; it is an air problem primarily, and in any event, to be a little more accurate, it is a problem of the co-ordination of the three forces. Again, what insane Minister, or what insane Department, is going to regard that as a possibility so near to a probability as to spend millions of the taxpayers' money upon making provisions such as are being made in this White Paper? Moreover, supposing there was a danger—I believe there is none—our equipment for the moment is more than sufficient to meet it. We have, for instance, two large modern battleships being built. We were told when they are going to be built. No other Power has ships of that type under construction. We have 49 modern cruisers. I am not counting in this programme. I emphasise the word "modern," because cruisers which are not modern might as well be regarded as nil. I believe that the Power next to us in the possession of such ships is Japan, and Japan has 18. We are building five; Japan is building six, or is supposed to be building six. France and Italy are

    463
    building two each. Where is the danger? Where is the hurry? Where is the demand for an increased equipment? It does not exist at all. There is no reason whatever, so far as we have had the facts disclosed to us, why one single keel should be laid down in addition to the five for which we were responsible last year.
    I see—perhaps I might just as well refer to it at this point—that one newspaper, in particular, has been referring to a report of something that I said last March. I am reported to have stated that the Labour party's programme was five cruisers last year and five cruisers this year. I am certainly, at least I am going to be, the last man to shelter himself behind that poor scapegoat of politicians who have made mistakes in speaking—the reporter. If I am reported in more than one place as having said that, then I said it. If I did say it, it was a sheer slip of the tongue. If hon. Members are really interested, and will take the trouble to look up the speech, they will find that that is contradicted in the elaborate statement, in the more detailed, at any rate more extended statement that I made of the position of the Government. Exactly the opposite was stated. I know, because I have got so many belligerent economists like my right hon. Friend who is sitting by me (Mr. Snowden) and some of the others who are not only economists but much more, and if I made a statement like that, they would know that it was not in accordance with the facts.
    I have stated over and over again in this House that we had never made up our minds as to what this year's programme was going to be. I am perfectly certain that, if I stated that here by mistake, it would be immediately challenged by my right hon. Friend and the facts would have been stated. So that if I did say it, very well, I am responsible; but it was a mistake, it was a slip. The facts are that we decided to build these five cruisers instead of the eight that were asked for. We stated at the time that that was not to be taken as anything more than a very hurried, a very provisional decision, on account of the pressure that was brought be bear upon us, that we had not time to consider what the programme ought to be,
    464
    but that we were not going to allow matters simply to drift, that we did not believe in a policy of disarmament by inaction and neglect, that meantime, holding that position, we would make our inquiries and that next year—that is this year—we would make ourselves responsible for a programme which, whatever it was, we should defend upon its merits. That is the position which the Government took up and that is the statement which I have made again and again and I repeat it now.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Who brought the pressure to bear?
    Mr. MacDONALO: The pressure was brought from a legitimate quarter—the Admiralty. Certainly I am not objecting to that. It is the Admiralty's duty to advise His Majesty's Government, His Majesty's Ministers, and it is the duty of His Majesty's Ministers, so long as they hold office, to do what they consider to be the safe thing, and, in the circumstances in which we found ourselves last year, rightly or wrongly—I think rightly—we made up our minds that that was the safe thing to do, and it left us quite unfettered so far as further conclusions were concerned regarding our shipbuilding programme. If there is no danger—and I do not see it—and if there is adequate equipment to meet any danger which we may not see but which may arise, then I think that thee is no need for this programme. I do not know how far we are going to trust the delightful accounts that appear in the newspapers about the wild fights behind the scene between the spendthrift party on the one hand and a frugal Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other hand. I do not know whether this programme is the child of the Chancellor or the child of ultimata, delivered from one side or another, that if it wore not agreed to there would be resignations. I do not know about that. There is no doubt whatever but that the Admiralty had their way, and that the Chancellor has been beaten.
    But what this Committee I hope will do with decisive emphasis now—because this is the time to do it—is to say quite clearly to all the spending Departments, whether services or not, that it is the civil authority that controls them and that the expert adviser, whether he is Chief of the General Staff or head of the Air Department or a First Sea Lord, is acting

    465
    illegitimately in using threats of resignation in order to bring pressure to bear on the civil authority. If there is one thing that characterises the Government of this country more than anything else, it is at any rate the theoretical fact that the civil authority, the political authority, controls the services and that the services, not even the most favoured of them, do not direct or control the political, the civil authority. It looks as though in this case the theory which I have enunciated has not been very well carried out.
    Will the Government tell us when they develop their explanation whether, before producing this programme of cruisers of Class A and of Class B, with a certain number of destroyers and so forth, it is the result at least of a well-thought-out and a properly approved and complete scheme of national defence? Will they tell us that they have now made up their minds as to what is to be the relation of the Navy to the Air Force and the Army in an approved scheme of national defence say for the next 10 years? Is this a scheme of that character or is this a mere haphazard result of the Admiralty coming up with their original programme, the programme which they themselvs fathered when they were in office, or is this merely a compromise, a sort of market huxtering between two sides, one producing a big programme and the other saying, "We will not give you that," and then after a certain number of threats of resignation an agreement is come to for the sake of peace and a White Paper is issued as the Government policy? If that is the situation it is neglecting the interests of the nation, the interests of national defence and the interests of national economy and of the taxpayer.
    I would suggest—and I am not speaking of this particular programme or that—that what is in their minds is this. The Admiralty says, "This is what we did before the War, and this is what we are doing now." There are no new ideas, no new conceptions of responsibility, no new conceptions of strategy, no new conceptions of national requirements, but just this, that though the. whole of the military and naval arms was tested during those terrible years between 1914 and 1918, we are going back again into the old ruts, building up against the one-Power standard or the two-Power standard or the three-Power standard, and putting
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    down a certain number of cruisers without any idea of their effectiveness. The truth is that it is simply the before the War, and, above all, the before the air habit of mind with which the Admiralty is possessed which has provided this scheme. It is not only that the Navy has been tested, and that the relative value of ships has been tested, but the appearance of the Air Arm has come in, and that has required such a modification that it ought to show itself in our ship building. It does not show itself in this programme. In finishing that particular Department, I venture to make this statement, that after we have spent the £58,000,000 which we are now being asked to spend—that is the suggestion—plus the annual cost of upkeep, when that is all done we shall not have added one shadow to the effectiveness of our national defence, and not one shadow to our real security as a nation in the event of another war breaking out.
    I prefer not to be misled to-day. I want to deal with the fact, which everybody knows and everybody understands, that the mere building of ships without any relation to co-ordination is not adding to security, but that if it goes beyond a certain extent it is adding to our insecurity, because it starts once again the old idea of national defence depending solely upon our forces, and there is nothing that contributes to the insecurity of a State more than mere building, the mere adding to their physical power. I know that it creates for the time being what is a very valuable thing, the psychology of security, but it adds to the reality of insecurity. If this be studied very carefully and in a most detailed way, it will be found that the argument in favour of the proposition which I have made is very strong. I know that the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) has given to the Press an interesting statement in which he refers to the building of three cruisers as not being so economical, I believe he said from a financial, certainly he said from a defensive point of view, as the building of four, and all that; but at the same time this really is not a replacement proposal, but a war development proposal. So from that point of view it is not effective, but is quite altogether disturbing. When the Prime Minister made his statement here he seemed to take a great deal of pride because the Admiralty agreed to accept

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    a committee of inquiry into its extravagance or its expenditure. He advanced that as though it were part of a bargain. "We have given them this programme; they have given us an inquiry." That, certainly, is how it reads, and, what is more, I have seen that argument used in the Press that is supporting the programme. That is altogether wrong. The Government which accepts a bargain like that, confesses its weakness to the whole world.
    "Economy in other directions"—there is no Department in the whole of the State that could be more profitably examined from that point of view than the Admiralty. Last year over-estimating, their Estimates exceeded expenditure by £4,000,000. And to-day, partly in a frame of mind of pride apparently, the spokesman of the Admiralty says, "We are not going to ask you to provide the money for this programme, because we have already discovered, although we have reached only the end of July, that we can economise more money in the Estimates which we told you a month or two ago were absolutely essential for the then needs of the Admiralty—we have already discovered from the over-estimates that we can provide for all the expenditure we require for this extravagance from time to time out of the money already voted." That is how the British taxpayer is used. Departments know perfectly well, when they put in their Estimates, that they are over-estimating, that there will be taken from the taxpayer's pockets millions of pounds that ought to remain there and fructify there; and then, when a great new expanding and expansive programme is produced, we are told, "Accept it. It will be easy, because this year we have over-estimated our needs, and from the over-estimates we will provide the money that is required." But if there is extravagance—there is extravagance in the Admiralty—it has nothing whatever to do with this programme, and ought to have nothing to do with it.
    This Committee ought to be appointed on its own merits. So far as we are concerned, we will not consider and we do not consider this a bargain at all. We consider this as an overdue step, necessary to have been taken in the interests of the taxpayer and also in the interest of the Admiralty itself. Would the Government
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    tell us what standard they have placed before themselves in devising this programme? We heard about a one-Power standard in a previous Debate. Is this to bring us up to a one-Power standard? I have been searching for that Power, but I have not found it. As a matter of fact, if we lay down this programme and claim that we are building up to a one-Power standard, what is the meaning of it? It means that other nations will accept the same one-Power standard, take us as that one Power, and then begin building against us, building up to the standard that we have set for ourselves. That is the beginning of the end of the whole affair. Then we are in for competitive armaments, and competitive armaments finally overtopple themselves in disturbances and in disputes and in. war.
    Then I would like to ask this: Where are these ships to be placed? To what use are they to be put? Are they to be placed in home waters, or are they to be placed in the Pacific? What is the grouping that is being worked out by the Admiralty? Because, quite obviously—I say so as a layman—these ships are not to be built specially as cruisers, and just thrown out on the high seas to roam about, except upon a plan of grouping, a plan of strategy and a plan of displacement and position of naval forces. Where are the ships to be placed? Suppose that they are placed in the best strategic place possible. Who is going to regard this programme, from the point of view of the heart of the Empire itself, as being of any value to us? I say from the point of view of the heart of the Empire. There is the great programme of home defence raised every day. As a matter of fact, we would talk a great deal more about it here if it were expedient to do so. Everyone knows that the development of these Estimates is becoming in itself a great danger to public security, and because nobody wants to make matters worse or to raise thorny problems, we sometimes hold our tongues about them here, when, as a matter of fact, we ought to speak. But everyone knows the problem that this country will face if it is going to be foolish enough to embark on programmes like this, when the real problem of defence that this country has is not touched at all by the building of these ships and by their equipment and by their service.

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    Is this a programme of replacement and replacement only? If so, what is to be replaced? What type of ship is to go gradually out of commission and to give place to this new type of ship? What type of ship going out justifies an addition of five 10,000-ton cruisers? It is quite true that the Admiralty now, changing its programme, changing its minimum demands, changing its pressure, which it said it never could, tells us that all this pressure, all this statement of case made again and again—tells us, not that it must have eight, as it persuaded the previous Government, not that it would accept five as an absolute minimum, but that it is accepting this much more limited programme. Then all the cruisers are not 10,000-ton cruisers. A new type of 8,000-ton cruiser is to be produced. The Government must be candid with us in this respect. Why this change of policy? Why has this change of programme been effected? What is it that is to be replaced by these new ships? What service are they to do? Is this, as a matter of fact, the beginning of the development of a new battle fleet, or are all these cruisers simply to be used, as we have been told again and again, as a police force for the high seas, just to parade our trade routes and prevent all sorts of delinquencies, and so on? My view is that the programme is the beginning of new war preparations, and is not merely a displacement programme at all.
    We have to come back to diplomacy as our great safeguard and our great security. What is to be the influence of this programme upon a disarmament conference? There is not only no word about it; there is no preparation being made for it. All this is looking in a different direction altogether. I can quite understand the Government saying, "We want new ships; we want replacement; we are not going to allow our present standards to go down. But, knowing how dangerous that is as a possible beginning of a new competition in armaments, we are only asking for them at the same time as our diplomacy is active in promoting, and in getting other nations to promote, conferences for disarmament." There should be no new building, putting it at the very strongest there should not be a single ton of new building put down at the present time by any Government
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    that is not actively engaged in promoting disarmament conferences.
    The building that took place last year was purely replacement building, and was never meant to be anything else, because the very people who were replacing last year were at the same time busy in promoting international disarmament conferences, and were actually fixing the dates, and the delegates to attend. There was in the French papers the other day a very interesting feeler put out. We know that the attitude which France adopted at Washington was most unfortunate, but I noticed that in one of the French newspapers which I read—in the "Temps" or the "Journal des Debats"—a feeler, a suggestion was put out. In view of what has passed since the autumn, has not the time come for new approaches to be made, because it is far more possible to come to an agreement with France now on naval building of all kinds, submarines as well as other kinds, than was possible at Washington? But there is no indication whatever that this Government can do anything with regard to disarmament conferences, except to scrap them. That is all that it has done up to now, so far as the public is permitted to know.
    Therefore I move the reduction of the Vote. There is no known danger facing us that justifies this programme. There is no clear idea embodied in it as to a completely co-ordinated scheme of national defence or of Imperial defence. There is no idea of a co-ordination of the three arms of the service, from the purely technical and service point of view, so far as I know; certainly it is not disclosed in this programme. There is no scientific use of the resources of the nation in devising this programme. There is no study of naval problems, no study of the necessities—or of the disadvantage as I should put it—of building in bulk at the present moment when everything is so uncertain as to style, form and equipment. I doubt if there is more in this Vote than an indication that civil control is being abandoned once again for service control. I take it to mean, not only that we are losing opportunities of making peace and making the conditions of peace, but that this Government is actually destroying them by its own policy. No proposition ever put before this Com-

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    mittee, deserves more heartily than this to be referred back because it is bad, it it unjustifiable, it is unknown in its consequences, and it is inadequate for its declared object.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree with what was said by my right hon. Friend who has just sat down when he animadverted on the fact that there has been no explanation of this gigantic new Vote from the Treasury Bench. Here we are being invited to commit ourselves to a new programme of £58,000,000, and there has been no explanation of it at all from the Government. It is quite a notorious fact that it has been a subject of prolonged controversy inside the Cabinet—that is not unusual with Navy Estimates by any means—but, at any rate, there were considerable differences of opinion. We heard of Ministerial crises—probably true—but outside, the figure has been received with a considerable amount of alarm by public opinion as a whole, and yet there is no explanation from the Treasury Bench as to why this has been done. I agree with my right hon. Friend, after hearing the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, that never in my whole experience of the House of Commons have I heard so perfunctory and jejune an explanation of such great commitments as those to which the Committee is now invited to subscribe. Here you have the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty—the two heavy cruisers of the Admiralty—
    Mr. MARDY JONES: On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member on the Government Front Bench to fall asleep during the Debate?
    The CHAIRMAN: That is not a point or Order.
    Mr. J. JONES: They are always asleep.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Neither of these heavy cruisers has been brought into action to defend their policy, and, as far as I can see, they are going to leave it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that fast cruiser which they have captured—and his guns are to be turned against the cause which he himself has defended so gallantly and so tenaciously. [AN HON. MUMBER: "He will manage it all right!"] I have no doubt. He has had a good deal of practice.
    Mr. JOHN BECKETT: In your Government!
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have no doubt that was a very useful experience. At all events, here is what undoubtedly alarms the public, namely, an £800,000,000 Budget, at a very bad time, when trade depression is more refractory and more hopeless than it has ever been. Nobody knows what is going to happen. The right hon. Gentleman himself does not know now. We are invited to subscribe to an addition of £58,000,000 to the national expenditure, and up to the present there has been no defence of the proposal of any sort or kind. I think it is an insult to the House of Commons that such a thing should occur. It would have been impossible under any other Administration. It is an assumption that, whatever the Government choose to put down, the thing is settled. But it is the House of Commons which is responsible for the Estimates and the expenditure of the nation, and it ought to have an explanation when a gigantic burden of this kind is to be added to the other burdens already upon the shoulders of the taxpayer. I ask again why is this proposal being made? My right hon. Friend who spoke last has already examined the proposal. Luckily, in spite of the experience already referred to, I am not as embarrassed as the right hon. Gentleman is in regard to this matter. When I come to examine this proposal, fortunately I am quite free.
    Mr. J. JONES: You are not free.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Whether I am or not, I am going to examine this proposal on its merits, and unless every Member does so, then it is no use our representing our constituents. Let us ask what is the reason for this new expenditure. Although the right hon. Gentleman has already put this question, I am going to repeat it. What is the threat to our security? From where does it come? I think it will be admitted that there is no threat from Europe. There is no fleet in Europe that could menace our shores. As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, there may be other menaces.
    Mr. JONES: From Fleet Street.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I hope my hon. Friend will allow me to develop an argument with which I am sure he agrees. There is another menace in Europe, but it

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    is not from the sea. It is conceivable that there is a menace from the air. When my right hon. Friend and I were in the same Government we examined this matter and we were undoubtedly alarmed. Nothing has happened since then to diminish the alarm. But that is not a naval menace. From Europe there is no naval menace at all. Before 1914, it was arguable that there was great peril to our shores, that the command of the seas had been lost, that there was an army of three million or four million, the. best the world had ever seen, which might come here and that we had only 200,000 or 300,000 to stand up against them. Now there is no menace of that kind. Is there any menace from any quarter of the globe to the security of our shores? That was the old naval proposition which, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I had to examine before the War. What then is it? I am told it is a menace to our trade routes. That is the only peril they can conjure up.
    Let us be quite frank about it. You cannot argue on this matter unless you are frank. We are told it is a menace to our trade routes in the Pacific. That is all. It does not come from America. Nobody here would argue that proposition. Is there any menace even to our trade routes which is conceivable within the next 10 years—and that point is vital? I could understand it being said that when prosperity was restored you could then reconsider the whole position. But you are now in a bad way. Trade is bad, and I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I understand he is going to speak, can he say, on his honour and his conscience, that he thinks there is a menace to our trade routes in the Pacific within the next 10 years which would justify himself and his Government in putting a burden of £58,000,000 on people who do not know where to turn in order to live? I ask him solemnly whether he knows of such a menace. It is not a question of what may arise in 15 years or 20 years. I am not discussing the Yellow Peril which may develop in the future, for Heaven knows what perils there may be in the future! We have to examine what the perils are in the time during which we are being called upon to build these cruisers. Take 10 years. I ask the right hon. Gentleman a second question. Can he conceive of any peril in the Pacific
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    arising in the next 10 years where the United States of America would not be far more involved than we are, on the same side? Why put all this burden at this stage on the poor taxpayers of this country?
    5.0 P.M.
    If it arose I agree with the—[A laugh.] I do not think this is a matter for laughing. It is quite serious and the House of Commons is not the place to treat it with laughter. I am now asking another question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I gather from the fact that he is taking notes that the right hon. Gentleman is going to answer. If it does arise, it looks to me, from the figures which I have examined, as if our power would be overwhelming. I know perfectly well that if you begin to argue figures with the Admiralty it is a hopeless task. My right hon. Friend and I have done it on the same side and on opposite sides in the same Government. You are entirely at their mercy. They handle ships well, but it is nothing to the way in which they handle figures. By every rational computation of strength it looks to me as if we were overwhelming, judging from the figures given here. Instead of quoting figures and counter-figures which would be endless, I take this fact. Here is a Government—surely not an unpatriotic Government, surely a Government which is fully alive to the perils to our trade and our shores. They have examined this proposition for months. I am not complaining that they have taken that time, because it is a very serious matter in which to commit the country, and if they found it necessary to take months it is not for us to complain if, meanwhile, no money is being spent. They have examined the position. They appointed a Committee. I am taking what has appeared in the Press on the subject, and I think it is very well known. That Committee, I understand, unanimously turned down the demand of the Admiralty, or certainly did not report in favour of this programme. What more appeared in the Press? That the majority of the Cabinet took the same view as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and among them the Prime Minister. There was a considerable majority of the Cabinet who turned down the demands of the Admiralty. What does that mean? It means that when the

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    figures were examined, even the present Government came to the conclusion that there was no case. Why have they changed their minds? They have not changed their minds; they have only changed their attitude. They have just reversed their engines. Their faces are still towards economy, but their movements are always towards extravagance.
    I congratulate the First Lord of the Admiralty on his victory over so formidable an antagonist. That is a great achievement. He has committed the Government, against its will, to £58,000,000. That is a very high valuation to put upon him. He said he would go and the Government could not face the Death Duties that would have to be paid on his severance. The valuation was put, not so much upon his services as upon his intrinsic worth. The right hon. Gentleman is in a position of great triumph. He had better stick to that firm of valuers. He will not get another quite like them. But he has won. There has never been anything quite like it since the hare and the tortoise. The right hon. Gentleman's great position has not been due to quickness. He cannot cover the ground with the rapidity of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he certainly cannot double on his tracks with such celerity. His success as First Lord of the Admiralty depends not so much on quickness as upon impenetrability. He has won a very remarkable victory. He has promised us some crumb of comfort through his Under-Secretary in the way of economy. He has actually agreed to another Committee.
    If I may venture to deal with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, his sole consolation appears to be another Geddes Committee. For him that is really rather sad. However, I think he will find it will work quite well. But these economies, if they were there, ought to have been there without reference to this question. You ought not to have large and assured expenditure as a condition of precarious economies. They say, "If you will give us £58,000,000, we will somehow or other save £500,000." What a bargain for the Chancellor of the Exchequer! It is like the inebriate who says that he will reduce the quantity of beer he drinks provided he can double the quantity in whisky.
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    That is the bargain they have got, and it is a very ridiculous one.
    But I think, in spite of the gravity of the gigantic commitments, that the constitutional question—and here I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. MacDonald)—is even more serious; the fact that you have a Department holding up the House of Commons and the Government upon every conceivable occasion. It is a regular threat; it is an annual naval manœuvre, and it is the only successful one. The Board of Admiralty arrogate to themselves the position of a sovereign independent State which can negotiate with the Government at the risk of war. There is no other Department that takes up that attitude.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKE: It was very fortunate they did so before the War.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will deal with my hon. Friend's argument. Is there any other Department that does that? Take the Army Council. The Army Council naturally press for more guns, for more battalions, for more divisions. They have the defence of the whole of the Empire in their charge. Repeatedly have I heard them say: "It is quite impossible for us to cover all this enormous ground with so small an Army." They tender their advice, but if that advice is rejected, they take the only constitutional line of saying: "Very well, the responsibility is that of the Government. The Government are responsible to the House of Commons. The House of Commons is responsible to the nation, and, therefore, when the Government speak to us the nation speaks for the time being to us, and all we can do is to accept the decision and do the best we can with the resources at our disposal."
    That is what every Department of State does except the Admiralty. That is what every Department in the State ought to do. Why? Because no Department has the whole of the facts. It is only the Government that can review the whole of the situation. The Department knows its own need, its own case. It knows what it has to deal with, but it-does not know what other difficulties there are. The Government review the whole situation. They take the needs of the land defences into account. They

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    take into account the needs of defence from the air, they take into account the demands of health, the demands of agriculture, the education of the people, the housing of the people. They take into account the resources at their disposal. They take into account the trade position, the financial position. They do more than that. They have facts which the Admiralty have only at second and third hand. That is where the danger is likely to come from. That is a very important element when you come to decide whether you are going to build cruisers or to build something else—airships or aeroplanes—or whether you are going to dismiss your Army. You ought to know, first of all, where is your likely point of jeopardy. The Foreign Office knows it; the Government know it through the Foreign Office. It is a constant source of anxiety to them. They discuss it, but the Admiralty cannot tell, and, therefore, when you have one Department that arrogates to itself the right to pay: "We want so much money and if we do not get it we will resign, we will throw up our commissions," that is an impossible constitutional position, and it is an end to free government. It is a substitution of autocracy for Parliamentary Government. This was an admirable opportunity for putting an end to it.
    It was very difficult in the old days when you had the menace across the sea. If the Admiralty said, "If you do not do this, the Germans will be here within 36 hours," naturally people got frightened, and them was an end to any attempt at argument. But that menace has gone, and there was here an admirable opportunity for putting an end to something which is quite a modern innovation. The old admirals never put forward this claim. The great sailors who defended our shores, who founded the Empire by superior seamanship and not by lavish margins, they never put forward this claim. Drake and Hawkins—[laughter]—they are not to be laughed at by the Admiralty of to-day. They—who were dealing with a Sovereign against whom the charge of parsimony was sometimes brought—never put forward claims of this kind. This is an absolutely modern practice. It has arisen within the last generation or two, and it ought to be put an end to in the interests of constitutional
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    government in this country. Whatever the merits, the moment the Board of Admiralty says, "Unless you concede this claim, we will resign," I would let them resign, and I would consider the claim on its merits afterwards. The first condition of security in this country is to teach discipline to admirals. That is a matter of first-rate importance, and it is a very grave misfortune that this opportunity was not taken to put an end to this dictatorship on the part of what, after all, is only one Department of the State dictating to the whole of the Government and to the House of Commons.
    After all, the House of Commons is a. great spending Department itself, probably the greatest of all, but, at any rate, when we do it we have the responsibility that we have to go to our constituents and account for It every time. That is our responsibility. Finance is government. That is the whole power of the House of Commons. It is based upon that doctrine—the responsibility of this House, the right of this House, no dictation from anyone outside. We have the supreme responsibility. We have fought that battle and we have established the rights of the Commons of England on that basis. Are we going to hand it over to a Department in Whitehall every time they go and present a gun at the heads of weak Ministers? I know that it may be said, "But all the Admirals said it before." They did not. Even assuming that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day was wrong in 1914, there was no case like this. The majority of the Government of that day were in, favour of big expenditure. The Prime Minister of that day was, also. It was purely a protest from the minority. But what have they done now? The Prime Minister of the day was against it, the majority of Ministers were against it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, of course, was bound to fight for cutting down expenditure. But the majority of his colleagues took that view, and so did the Prime Minister. This is the first time that the Board of Admiralty have intimidated the majority of the Cabinet with the Prime Minister at its head by a threat of resignation. When there was an opportunity to put an end to it, they made it worse than it ever was, and that is one of the most serious things that have happened.

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    I would like to say a word about pre-1914. There would have been more efficiency if there had been less lavish expenditure. The whole story has not yet been told about the mines and the torpedoes, and the kind of shells and the construction of ships that were so defective that a shell dropped in and blew up one or two of them. If admirals had had less money to spend they would have had more time to know how to spend it efficiently. Lavish expenditure does not conduce to efficiency in any Department of the State, and that is true, not merely of the Admiralty but of every other Department.
    I would just like to say this word in conclusion. This is a Vote to spend £58,000,000 in protection of our trade routes. Our trade routes are in danger, but they are not in danger from navies. No one knows the kind of dangers better than the First Lord of the Admiralty. They are not naval, they are not military, they are not aerial; they are industrial, and the First Lord of the Admiralty has within the last few days been brought face to face with far and away the greatest danger to our trade routes. It is not in the Pacific; it is at home. It is no use sweeping the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean in order to see whether you can somehow or other find dangers to guard against. The danger is yawning in front of us, and the Government are marching into it, scanning the horizon with telescope glued to one eye, and the other closed. If the Prime Minister and the First Lord of the Admiralty could settle the present industrial dispute—the Secretary to the Admiralty is very amused at all these dangers, but I can assure him that it is not the perfunctory business that he seemed to imagine when he delivered his speech—I say that if the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Prime Minister could settle this dispute, they would do more to protect our trade routes than by constructing 50 new cruisers. If the right hon. Gentleman could set aside the price of one cruiser even to solve the problem of carbonisation successfully, he would do more for our trade than by all this expenditure.
    The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down talked about the effect upon the peace of the world. You can see it
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    already in the comments of the foreign Press. There have been sermons delivered on disarmament by Ministers. What is the answer of the Continent of Europe It is that this is the old British hypocrisy. That is the answer which is already made; £58,000,000 spent, after all these sermons. It is no use preaching disarmament to nations with the Sermon on the Mount in one hand and an order for £58,000,000 worth of battleships in the other. It is ruining the moral prestige of the country. It is putting upon our shoulders, at a time when we cannot bear it, a gigantic burden, and from every point of view it is one of the most deplorable commitments that any Government has invited the House of Commons to undertake.
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I think, as my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty is proposing at a later stage in the Debate to make a general reply to the arguments which have been used, it would perhaps be convenient if I said a very few words, which I think it is my duty to say, at this stage in the discussion. I do not intend or desire to be drawn into the ordinary give-and-take of party rejoinders across the Floor of the House, but only to say, very shortly and very simply, how the matter we have now to decide presents itself to my mind. Personally, I do not believe that it is a rational division of human beings to classify them as advocates of the Navy or as advocates of economy. I believe that every rational British subject is in favour of the Navy and is in favour of economy. The only question which has to be decided, and which has to be decided every year, in every Parliament, in every Government, is a question of degree, how the balance should be struck between these contending and conflicting aspects, the truth and wisdom of the policy resulting from a harmonious striking of the balance between these opposite considerations.
    Mr. J. JONES: You have been striking all the time.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I have heard the hon. Gentleman do much better than that. Of course, it is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a task which my right hon. Friend has discharged in former years with great tenacity, to scrutinise, to canvass, to

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    criticise in every manner that is possible, and with the fullest knowledge available, proposals for expenditure which are made by the Admiralty, and it is the business of the Admiralty steadily and steadfastly to unfold and to deploy before the Cabinet which they serve the view which they hold as to what will enable them to discharge their task of naval defence. There is nothing new in this. It is no hideous secret of differences existing in the bosoms of a Government. This is what happens, and what ought to happen, and what has always happened, as far as I remember, year after year, any time in the last 20 years when I have followed these matters with close attention. It would be intolerable if the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Admiralty should be in agreement at the beginning of such a discussion. Neither would be doing what he is expected to do; both would be lamentably failing in their duty to the public; but if they arrive at agreement in the end, then it is for the Government as a whole to point out to the House of Commons, and to prove to the House of Commons, that what they are asking is no more than what the defence of the country requires, and that it is being achieved at a minimum of expense to the taxpayer.
    When, in the early days of December last, I first apprehended what was the general policy which the Admiralty were pursuing, in conjunction with the Estimates presented for that year, I became greatly disturbed, because the policy which the new Government found when they came into office was the policy which had been formulated more than two years ago, which had neither been accepted nor rejected by the Administration of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but which, as it were, lay on the table, on the secret tables of Whitehall, and that policy confronted me, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the certain prospect of expenditure on a scale which would unquestionably have compromised the entire finance of this Parliament and, I think, entirely have deflected the position of naval affairs in relation to general policy. I think that that expenditure, in that form and to that extent, arising as it did out of considerations and decisions taken two years ago, would have plunged us in very grave controversies in this country, and I am sure that it would utterly have
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    paralysed, stultified, and prevented any attempt at securing a diminution of the burden on the taxpayers during the lifetime of the present Parliament.
    Therefore, having a very long experience of these matters, I immediately proceeded to ask from my right hon. Friend, not only the expenditure of the year in question, but the expenditure of the years which were to follow, and the consequences of the policy and programme which a previous Government, which you might say two previous Governments, had left lying on the Admiralty table. It was impossible to reach any conclusion, upon the extremely complicated issues involved in the time available before the Estimates were presented to the House, and the Cabinet, therefore, decided that the Estimates were to be presented without a new programme, and that the question of the new construction programme was to be held over until Vote 8 was taken, as it is now being taken, some time in July. In the meanwhile a Committee—it is easy to sneer at Committees, but how you are to get through modern business without continuous work by Committees, I do not know, and I should think my right hon. Friend opposite is the father of more Committees, and in some cases more fruitful Committees, than any other Member here present—was appointed to examine the whole question of naval expenditure, to examine into all the details of the programme year by year, and to examine into the possibilities of contingent economies on the general upkeep of the Fleet to balance any necessary augmentation of the programme.
    This Committee sat. We sat—I have not the exact score in my mind, but I think certainly we held between five-and-twenty and thirty meetings, long meetings, with all the work that goes on in between, with all the printing of documents, and interchange of documents. The Admiralty were present: not only their political chief, but all the experts were there, and they gave us the fullest information. Nothing could exceed the frankness and fullness with which the whole position was deployed before us. It fell to me to state the obvious counter-case which can be deployed in these matters, and nothing could have exceeded the freedom with which that discussion was con-

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    ducted during all those long months. It was our duty to do so. Are you to throw public money away because you are afraid of putting your case forcibly, sharply, it may be? Certainly not: I started on the basis in my mind that it would be much easier and much better to settle the naval policy of this Parliament—because that is what we are settling—not of the year, but of this Parliament, by a series of programmes regulating the building, than by a series of wrangles and squabbles and struggles between the Admiralty and the Treasury, year after year, with no plan, no policy, no consistent or coherent scheme of naval construction or of naval policy. or of financial policy arising therefrom. Therefore, we immediately addressed ourselves, not to the programme of a single year, but to the programme which we imagined to be indispensable during the period for which we may reasonably. or hopefully, expect to be responsible. I think there is great advantage in having a programme for a period of years as compared with annual building.
    I was responsible, before the War, for proposing that, with the full agreement of my right hon. Friend, and I am sure that it had an advantageous effect, both on the economy of the Navy and upon our relations with Germany at that time. In fact, when the Great War came, the naval question had almost ceased to be a violent controversial issue. The quotas which were to be built on either side were well-known and recognised, no increase had been made by Germany in consequence of our declarations, matters were proceeding entirely on an agreed plan, and at any moment we might, but for the catastrophe of the War, have advanced to the position of saying to the Germans: "Let us renew our proposals for a naval holiday. If you will omit the building of certain vessels, we, on our side, will equally take a blank year and not build our quota." From that point of view, all my experience has led me to believe that it is a far sounder naval policy to have a plan for two, three, or four years than to build hugger-mugger, according to the accidents of the fight between the economists and the navalists, or the chances of politics, and of newspaper discussion in the country.
    There is another point. If you have a programme of ships that you know you are going to build, you can make contracts on
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    better terms, for the building firms know the limits within which they are likely to receive orders. They know that one ship may replace another in the same berth; consequently an enormous waste can be avoided. They know, too, the nucleus staff of skilled men they may be called upon to maintain. The matter is systematised naval defence as against chaotic, sporadic, and spasmodic naval defence. I started with a very strong prepossession in favour of that policy. Discussions, as I have said, went on for three or four months, without any headway being made, or any agreement between those whose duty it was to present the case for the taxpayer, and those whose duty it was to submit the case for the Admiralty. As I knew perfectly well, the Admiralty at the time were making the most extreme effort to find ways of reducing their charge upon the Exchequer. At length the programme which was proposed by the Admiralty, by the First Lord and the First Sea Lord together—with their full authority—that programme constituted an immense diminution upon what this Government had inherited from the Governments which preceded it—an immense diminution! I am not going into how great that diminution was, but it was a programme which, the moment I saw it presented, I felt was no more than any reasonable man would regard as necessary for a sober yet solid defence of our permanent naval position. That is the programme. That programme is the programme—
    Mr. POTTS: Were there differences between you then?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: It is necessary to answer that question.
    Mr. POTTS: You cannot!
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Is it likely that I should have led up the argument thus far to avoid answering that question? That programme is the programme which is printed in the White Paper in every unit and without one addition or one subtraction. But I am going to be candid and frank with the Committee. Looking at it from the point of view of the finance of the programme, I said, "I support this programme, but I ask that it should be begun next year instead of this year. If the first instalment begins next year instead of this year, it will be an easement to the finance of the country. Otherwise,

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    I am not only in agreement with the Admiralty but a strong supporter of the Admiralty upon this replacement programme."
    That was the issue submitted to the Cabinet. That is the issue, and like every other issue it has been reduced to a very small point. I have seen three great naval fights on these matters and always the issues when they were finally presented to the Cabinet were issues which in no way affected decisively either the economy or the expenditure. There was the issue reduced to a very small limit. But the issue was still more refined than that, because on behalf of the Treasury I proposed that the programme should be delayed for one year, but that if the Admiralty could economise in other directions they should be free to accelerate in this direction. The ultimate decision of the Cabinet was that the programme ought not to be delayed, but begun at once, and the Admiralty should make economies to countervail the cost of the acceleration. There is the difference. I consider that the whole of that process has been thoroughly healthy, and that we have arrived at an absolutely sound conclusion so far as the programme is concerned.
    After all, we have got to talk about the facts in this matter. What is the basis of this programme? It is no good our taking up an attitude without knowing exactly what is the position. Let us see what is the basis of this programme. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) asked: "What is the menace against which you are building?" Of course, the programme seems very large when you are looking at five years' building. You say it is £58,000,000. You are living in a fool's paradise if you go merely by the annual estimates of shipbuilding, and do not take the trouble to add up what they come to over a period. The right hon. Gentleman asks what is the menace against which you are building. The menace is a very simple one. It is not a very blood-curdling one. No foreign nation is menacing our safety. The German fleet is at the bottom of Scapa Flow. The outlook of the world amongst the great Powers is peaceful enough. The chances of quarrel are more remote than we have known them. It is almost inconceivable that any of the three great naval Powers should
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    be drawn into conflict with one another within a period that we can foresee. That is the view of the Government. What, then, is the menace which we are building against? The menace is that the Fleet is wearing out. That is the menace. That is the only menace! I stand here a strong supporter of the One-Power Standard. I have always adopted it and always accepted it since the War. That in itself implies an immense modification in the whole historical position of this island Empire, which depends not merely for its unity but for the life of its people on uninterrupted sea communication. We have adopted the one-power standard. We have to maintain a Navy which is not inferior to any other navy in the world. There are other qualifications as well; but this is essential to our position. We have, at this moment, a great number of ships, very good and powerful ships of all kinds, other than battleships which are regulated by the Washington Conference, and which were built during and before the War. There are a few cruisers which are being launched now, and which were planned during the War. They are being built by slow construction, which is a wasteful process; but the great bulk of these ships which are being built together will be launched together, and will also wear out together. They must be replaced. I heard the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) a little while ago say, "Oh, but you are replacing Ford cars with Rolls-Royce cars." Well, if the contemporary replacement vessels of other nations are of a wholly different pattern and of a superior strength, it is necessary that our contemporary replacements should be of a similar character. But no one has ever doubted that the British Navy will always have at every period in its existence, unless superseded by aerial or pacific arrangements—of which at present there is no sufficient guarantee—to include in its strength a certain number of vessels which in quality are equal to what are being produced in any part of the world. That is absolutely essential. It is essential to the idea that we are not inferior qualitatively or quantitatively to any other naval Power. I firmly believe that this programme which is put forward is, as I said, a solid but sober one, the main-

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    tenance and replacement of the British Navy, and not more than that. I recognise at once the manner in which the Admiralty, in view of the declaration which the Foreign Office and the Cabinet were able to make of the peaceful outlook of the world, have so shaped this programme of replacement as not to exceed the minimum requirements of the fleet.
    In order to reach this point of view, which contrasts so greatly with what lay on the table of our predecessors, and was proposed two years ago, it was necessary to review, in the light of the outlook of the world, the test that should be applied to the longevity of cruisers and destroyers, and modify, in that relationship, all the standards of replacement. As a result, we have a programme the cost of which only is to be estimated by the broad forecast included in the White Paper, which has been circulated. It does not, however, follow at all that that extra charge will constitute a net addition to the Estimates of the Admiralty during the present Parliament. On the contrary, we have taken, the Government has taken, and the House of Commons will take, the view that it is our duty at this period in naval affairs to rebuild the Fleet with a minimum expense, which is not in any way excessive, but which is adequate for its purpose. In building the Fleet some expense is thrown upon the Exchequer, but there ought to be, and there will be—the Admiralty are determined that there shall be—a large and substantial contribution to that additional cost by the interior economy practised throughout the maintenance and upkeep of the services of the Navy.
    It is for that purpose that this Committee of Inquiry has been called into being. The Committee of Inquiry has a perfectly specific role. It is to ascertain and propose to the Cabinet such reductions as, in their opinion, are possible, and will meet the cost of beginning the programme this year and of continuing it next year. Besides all that, the Committee has naturally and necessarily to examine into the whole field and problem of naval expenditure, and of the Army and Air Force expenditure—on the administrative side. That will in no way supersede the activities which it is the duty of the Treasury to bestow upon
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    expenditure, nor, of course, will it supersede the task of the Cabinet in dealing with matters of large policy. It has a perfectly definite role, and a role of great importance.
    This Committee is related to the Cabinet Committee on economy in that it serves under it and will report to it. It has been asked, What is to happen to Civil expenditure? I should not be in order in going into that, except in a sentence to say that the first task of this Committee will be to deal with Admiralty expenditure, and then with the Army and the Air Force, and that it does not follow at all that afterwards it may not be applied to certain administrative aspects of the Civil Departments; but there is no question of delaying the examination of the Civil Departments until this Committee has discharged its work on the three fighting Services. That work is to go forward continuously and at once, and it is in the light of the working of all this machinery that the Estimates for next year will be framed. I think I have explained to the House frankly and distinctly how the situation lies.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the names of the Committee?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Invitations are still being extended, and all the replies are not yet to hand. I believe that in executing this programme we shall be doing no more than is necessary to maintain the British Fleet at the one-Power standard which it is the declared aim of all parties to pursue. I think, in the second place, that with the aid of the Admiralty, freely forthcoming, and with the processes of economical inquiry which I have described, we shall secure very considerable diminutions over the whole scope and area of Navy Votes, and that in the result no burden will be placed upon our finances which will complicate in any way the task which in the next few years will fall upon whoever is responsible for them. I cannot hold out the hope of large net savings on the amount of Naval Estimates. I hope that that may be possible, but I am not going to deceive the House. I hope, and I confidently expect, that the diminutions which will be effected by interior economies in the Navy may enable the Estimates to remain at the present actual

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    figures; but having regard to the fact that since the War we have had hardly any New Construction Vote at all, and that the rebuilding of the Fleet is a charge which would fall upon any Government, and any Board of Admiralty, in one form or another, I am satisfied that the present solution, though not perhaps the solution which, had the Chancellor of the Exchequer been invested with dictatorial powers, he would have adopted, is nevertheless one which can confidently be commended to the House and to the country as being a sincere and earnest discharge of the dual functions of national economy and naval defence.
    Mr. AMMON: The House has always admired the versatility and genius of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I doubt whether he has ever displayed them better than in the speech which we have just heard. His apologia, with the reasons he has now given for coming to his point of view, is about one of the thinnest defences ever put up, even by the right hon. Gentleman himself. One can imagine the great trial he was put to when he had to confess that he was not prepared to go in for the usual give-and-take of Debate on this occasion. He proceeded to tell us what, he said, was in his mind. What has emerged from it is that the the Chancellor of the Exchequer has once more been forced to eat humble-pie in order to hold his office on the Treasury Bench. He told us, in the first place, there had been no time available to consider the programme which has been put before the House. If that be true, what was the position of the last Government who, within a week or two of taking office, had to consider the proposals left by their predecessors But I venture to say it is not the case. As the right hon. Gentleman has stated, this programme has been before them two years. This Government, when last in office, tabled this programme, and it was still there when they went back to take it up on this occasion. Therefore, they have had ample time to consider it, and there is no reason why it should not have been brought forward with the Estimates when they were first introduced into this House. One can imagine the freedom of discussion in the Cabinet. We have been intrigued by reports in the Press as to what was happening. We have seen the Chancellor of the Exchequer going about with his
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    beet Napoleonic air, and we have judged by it that, after all, he has suffered a defeat, that the swashbuckler turned peace advocate, the spendthrift turned economiser, has not been quite successful in this particular instance.
    What is the programme and the plan to which he has continually referred? That is what the House and the country are repeatedly demanding. So far as we can gather from the only statements that have been put forward, it is a mere haphazard building, just a case of building against other Powers, without any intelligent plan behind it as to what the design and operation are to be. Are the Government building with a view to securing the minimum to protect the vital communications of the Empire? Are we not to be informed as to what impression the four-Power Pact is to have on the protection of Pacific interests and our Navy there? Can it be wholly divorced from Singapore? These things must be linked up. Looking at things in that way one sees that we are again entering into another naval race, with the Pacific as the base for future operations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that they had had disputes in the Cabinet, but that they had decided to go on, having regard to economies in other directions. But he gave the whole case away in his very last sentence, when he said that this programme was not what would have gone forward had the Chancellor of the Exchequer had plenary powers in the matter. What does that indicate? It indicates that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had to give way because he was not in a position like the First Lord of the Admiralty to threaten to resign, for there was no one who would take him. The house from which he has just come has fallen down; therefore if he left that house he would be without shelter. [Interruption.] No, not the Labour party. He tells us that this is the price he has had to pay, that he has not been able to impress his will and his considered judgment as Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Cabinet, and so they go forward with this reduced programme. Does he mean the House to believe that the programme now brought before us, with the statement that economies are to be made in certain directions, are the things that drew forth threats of resignation from the admirals and others? The whole thing is utterly

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    preposterous. One can see right away that the threats of resignation have had their weight, and we are faced with this extraordinary position, that the numerically-strongest Government of modern times has abrogated its power of government, and has submitted to intimidation from the Board of Admiralty. That is the plain position, and, whatever party is concerned, it is a very serious proposition if they let that go unchallenged, particularly at a time when we have a margin of peace of quietude and could settle once and for all the relationship between Government Departments and the Government themselves.
    It has been again and again repeated—it was said last Thursday, and repeated again to-day by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that we are going to maintain the one-Power standard. What is the one-Power standard? We are more than up to that at the present time—or any other two Powers. Is it to be that we are to set up a one-Power standard that is going to set the standard of armament races for all future generations, plunging us back into old difficulties, and with the certainty of war in the days to come? The foolishness of it all—asking the House to accept the position that they have urged the Navy Departments to save in one direction in order that we may spend it in a more wasteful and provocative direction, doing more harm, probably, than the original expenditure would have done. What does that confess? It simply indicates what I endeavoured to point out last time the Estimates were before this House, that the Admiralty have gone on as they have done ever since the War, continually overestimating, and placing an unnecessary burden on the taxpayers of this country, and out of that some credit, forsooth, is going to be taken by the Government for making savings.
    6.0 P.M.
    We have a right to ask whether the standard which the Navy proposes to build up is going to be based on remote and preventible contingencies, or whether there is any intelligent conception at all behind it. The only possible countries we can be building against are, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has already pointed out, the United States of America and Japan. Surely in the one case that is unthinkable, even as
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    it is in the other case; but, from the strategic point of view the whole thing is utterly absurd, for any navy sailing from Yokohama, or wherever it is, against any of our positions, would not be in any fit condition to proceed to war after it had reached that distant base. We have an opportunity now to go slow, to consider calmly and quietly with other nations whether it is not possible to call a halt, at least to reconsider our position as to reducing expenditure. It is not the least bit of good for the Prime Minister to give us speeches about the will to peace if behind those flowery sentiments and ideals there is no mind and no purpose to pursue them to the end. This will only give other nations the opportunity to gibe again, as they have done in the past, about the hypocricies of England. While we are making professions on the one hand, we are creating suspicions in other directions which can only indicate that the same war mentality that was here before 1914 is still with us so far as the present Government are concerned. The proposals submitted to us are proposals to spend £58,000,000 on armaments. That is £58,000,000 at a time when we are being pressed and harried to find ways and means to pay our way and meet our national expenditure. We never had a greater opportunity when we could afford to economise and expend our money along lines which would have done more for national defence than any large army. If this £58,000,000 had been spent upon industrial development and scientific research in connection with our coalfields and elsewhere, it would have done more to secure our frontier and place us in a. better position to meet any possible attack that might come from outside. The Opposition will oppose these proposals to spend money at a time when it is absolutely unnecessary and when we are entirely in the dark, because no considered plan has been laid before the House as t why we should go on with this naval development.
    We do not know whether it is intended that we are building for a Pacific Fleet, thus setting up another naval race. What is the meaning of all this expenditure at Singapore? What effect is the Pact with the Powers going to have? These proposals are being rushed through at the end of a Session, and there is not ample

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    time to give them full consideration. Almost as they are now they were prepared by the Government which preceded the last Government, and they were held over by the Labour Government in part because we desired to consider deliberately and calmly with the idea in mind of the Disarmament Conference that would have met this year, and would have had a great influence on their deliberations. The Government have now succumbed to the intimidation of the Admiralty, and this Government Department has once again arrogated to itself the power of government. You might as well expect to have a deputation of shoemakers protesting against the wearing of boots and shoes as to expect the Admiralty to protest against the building of ships. It is the duty of the Government to check this expenditure, and not allow themselves to be intimidated in this way. This is a confession of failure on the part of the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to carry out their own duties. It is also a failure of the Committee of Imperial Defence to discharge its duty. Having regard to the urgent need of the country to spend money along lines of true economy, and having regard to the fact that many hon. Members on both sides are against this expenditure, I hope they will take their courage into their hands and register their votes against these proposals.
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: I regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has left the House because he has said a lot about Admirals, but evidently he does not care to listen to what an Admiral has to say about the problem before us. I want to approach this subject from a different angle from that adopted by most hon. Members, and I wish to approach it from the air and the submarine angle. There is an opinion getting about in the country that the Air Service can replace the Navy. I think all airmen ought to combat that opinion, because in its present state of development the Air Service cannot replace the Navy, but it can indicate in which way you can make great economies in naval administration. I was very much struck with the figures given by the hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Galloway (Sir A
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    Henniker-Hughan) in the last Debate on the Navy. He told us that we only had 57 cruisers, 18 of which were over 10 years old and only two of which could steam 33 knots an hour. Those ships are for the protection of all our great trade routes. We have only 57 cruisers and only two modern ones against nine possessed by the United States and 16 by Japan.
    I have looked up the figures of what the Admiralty have had in the Estimates since the Armistice, and I find they have had a tremendous amount of money. In 1919–20 they had £154,000,000: in 1920–21, £92,500,000; 1921–22, £76,000,000; 1922–23, £57,000,000; and in the next year they dropped £3,000,000: for in 1923–24 they had £54,000,000, and in 1924–25, £56,000,000. In 1925–26 the naval expenditure went up £4,500,000, and they had £60,500,000. In other words, since the Armistice the Admiralty have spent £550,000,000, and yet we have only got two cruisers that can steam 33 knots as against the figures I have given for the United States and Japan. Under these circumstances, I would like to ask hon. Members whether they think we have got good value for all that money when we have only two cruisers that can steam 33 knots and when we know that the Admiralty have expended £550,000,000 since the Armistice.
    I think the whole administration of the Admiralty requires a thorough overhauling. We want more cruisers badly, and we want to replace a number of our cruisers. I would like to point out to the Leader of the Opposition that you cannot send our seamen to sea in old ships, and we must replace those cruisers exactly as was said during the Debate last year by the Leader of the Opposition in a speech which I admired more than I do the right hon. Gentleman's recent speech on India. I was unfortunate enough some time ago to go to sea in an old cruiser. I took a 16 year old cruiser from Chatham out to the Mediterranean, and, when we were getting into the Bay of Biscay, the old cruiser began to pant from the middle, and it had a most extraordinary oscillation. When we got to Malta I asked Admiral Beresford to have the ship overhauled, and they found, when the teak was stripped off the deck, the steel plates were so corroded that you could put your fist through them in many places, and the corrosion extended from the funnel casing

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    right out to the stringer plates. The cruiser was getting no longitudinal strength from the steel deck, and had we encountered a strong gale of wind in the Bay of Biscay we should have lost that ship. That is why we have to build more cruisers.
    We want them to protect our great arteries of trade and to work with the battle Fleet. We have 18 battleships, and we require something like 27 cruisers to work with the battle Fleet, because we want on an average three cruisers to two battleships. That means we should have 27 battleships working with the Fleet, and that would mean that we should have 30 cruisers to protect our great trade routes. We are told that it took 32 of our ships to hunt down the "Emden." Now we have only 30 ships to protect our great arteries of trade. The programme we are considering only allows for a few extra cruisers, but that does not help us much. How are we to find cruisers to protect our trade without spending a lot more money? There is only one way, and that is to consider the whole of the naval problem at the present time. We have 18 battleships, and will any of my hon. Friends here who are Admirals tell me how we are going to use those battleships in the next war, which may necessitate them steaming 3,000 miles from their base?
    At one time our battleships had the freedom of the seas, but now, if a battleship approaches an enemy's coast, she is at once attacked by submarines, destroyers, minelayers and torpedo-carrying craft and aircraft. We were told in the last Debate on the Navy that no battleship had been sunk in war time by a bomb from the air. That is quite true, but the United States Naval and Air Department carried out not long ago a. series of experiments. They first experimented with a submarine and sunk her. They also sank a destroyer. They then made a target of a battleship on the shore with all the turrets marked. They then sent up their aircraft and bombed it, and in eight minutes the whole of that target had disappeared, and you could not see a single bit of it. Then they started bombing a battleship, and they dropped a 2,000-lb. bomb on the old German battleship "Ostfriesland." The bomb fell just under the bow and she went down.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOSEPH NALL: Were these targets stationary or moving?
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: The target was stationary, but I will deal with that later. This 2,000-lb. bomb was dropped near the bow, and a projectile like that explodes with so much force that it would loosen the rivets in any ship. They dropped this bomb on the "Ostfricsland," and they took portraits every minute. At 12.30 p.m. the bow was up with the stern under water. At 12.37 she was lying on her port side, ready for the final plunge; at 12.30 the bow was in the air at an angle of 35 degrees to the horizontal; at 12.39½ it was nearly vertical, and at 12.39f it had disappeared under the surface. It took only 3¾ minutes to sink that battleship. They then bombed the "Virginia." They dropped a 1,100-lb. bomb on the "Virginia," and in eight seconds she was practically a total wreck. I have been asked by the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Sir J. Nail) whether these targets were moving. They were stationary. My critics may ask, Where were the anti-aircraft guns, and were they firing? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members say "Hear, hear!" but I have in my hand a picture of a phosphorus bomb which was dropped on the "Alabama," and if any of those hon. Members who say "Hear, hear!" will look at the result of these phosphorus bombs and tell me that any anti-aircraft gun can function, I shall be very much surprised. Anti-aircraft guns are perfectly useless against aircraft if the aircraft are handled properly and drop the right sort of bombs.
    Our critics may say that there is the counter-attack, that aircraft will go up from the Fleet and will knock out all these other aircraft. But if you are working on an enemy's coast, as you would be, they would put up 1,000 aircraft to your 10, because you can only carry a few in these aircraft carriers. The point I want to make is that battleships operating a long distance from their base are now perfectly out of date. I will not go so far as the late Admiral Sir Percy Scott did when he put up the midshipman to say, in answer to the question, "What is the use of a battleship?" "It is no damned use"; but these battleships only have a slight potential value, and I hope that any Admiral who speaks after me, or any student of naval matters, like my hon.

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    and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs), will tell the Committee exactly how a battle fleet is going to be used 3,000 miles from its base.
    We have been asked what is the menace. I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said that it was a menace from Mars. The menace, in my opinion, is this: We are very friendly with Japan, and we are very friendly with America, but those two nations do not see eye to eye over everything. Since the United States threw overboard the Gentlemen's Agreement, the Japanese are rather hurt, because they think their nationals ought to be treated in the same way as the nationals of European countries. They do not like, and they are saying so openly in their Press now, the voyage of the American armada from Pearl Harbour to Australia, where it is now. They do not like that, and at any time friction might occur between those two countries, and we might have to hold the balance. We should move our cruisers out to Singapore, and might get dragged into a war in exactly the same way as the Americans were dragged into the late War. That is the menace, as far as I can see it. We should move our cruisers to Singapore, and should have to have our large docks there to dock our aeroplane carriers. How we are going to use the Battle Fleet I cannot understand. I should like someone here to tell the Committee how we are going to use the Battle Fleet in the next war, where we may be 3,000 miles from our base. If we had to operate against Japan, the Japanese Battle Fleet would be safe in the inland seas. The Americans cannot use their Battle Fleet, we cannot use our Battle Fleet, and the Japanese cannot use their Battle Fleet.
    I have said that the battleship has a slight potential value, but is it worth while going on, as is shown in this White Paper, pouring out money for the "Nelson" and "Rodney"—£6,000,000 of the taxpayer's money, and £100,000 or £150,000 a year for the upkeep of 18 battleships in this country, when they have only a slight potential value? There are wise men in the House of Commons, there are wise men in America, there are wise men in Japan. Cannot we get these men round a conference table and say to them, "What
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    is the good of spending £6,000,000 of the taxpayer's money and £100,000 or £150,000 a year on the upkeep of these battleships, when they have only a slight potential value?" Surely we can get a conference convened and wipe out the battleship altogether. Then we would say at the round table that we would take the 10,000-ton ship as our largest ship, and have a ratio, exactly in the same way as we had for the battleships—not the same ratio, perhaps, because we should have all our commerce to protect, but we could work out the ratio, and also tell the Powers interested that we would let them build any number they liked of small cruisers under 5,000 tons, simply as peace cruisers. I submit that suggestion, and would ask' the Financial Secretary of the Admiralty to press it upon the Government. The Foreign Secretary said he would be Quite agreeable to this course. I took down what he said the other day. He said:
    "This country will join with any of the great Powers in a conference for the further limitation of naval armaments and for the reduction of land armaments"—
    I submit that we ought to get the Powers at Washington to convene a conference to reduce this great burden of battleship armaments that we have to face in this country.
    I now want to say a word about submarines. The French forced the whole submarine construction on this country. They had such success in 1900 and 1901 with their submarines, the "Goubet," the "Gymnote" and others, that we were forced to build submarines in this country. Now they have a very large number of submarines—they have 105 against our 67. If we go into any Pact with France for the security of our frontier, we ought first to say to France, "Take away that pistol from our heads." A naval officer wrote in the French Press a short time ago that they only wanted 75 efficient submarines in France to bring the whole of this country to its knees. I submit that it is an intolerable position that an Ally, to help whom we have made such great sacrifices, should hold a pistol at our heads in that way, and we ought to get them to reduce their submarines. I am quite certain that it could be done if it were approached properly. That would be one of the matters for the new Washington Conference which I hope to see set up to go into the whole question of submarine tonnage.

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    With regard to dockyards, all our southern dockyards in this country were developed in the course of our wars with France. At the present time, any air unit can fly over those dockyards and knock the whole lot of them out. If hon. Members do not believe that, I would like to show them a picture of a very fine gas curtain over New York, chopped by American bomb-men. It shows what would happen to any of our southern ports in case of hostilities with a European Power. They would wipe out the whole of our southern dockyards, and it could not be prevented. If our Chief of the Air Staff were sent for to come here to-day, he would say that our dockyards could be wiped out in one attack. We could not hear the machines coming, because they would come over the sea, and it would be very difficult to prevent them. I think the Chief of the Air Staff would bear me out in that. He has studied the whole problem, and he would say how difficult it would be to prevent an enemy from wiping out our southern dockyards.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha) made a speech the other day upon which I very much congratulate him. He said quite boldly, Why not use the dockyards for building steel houses? I think that was a very plucky thing for a Member representing a dockyard town to say, but I quite agree with him. Chatham costs £2,000,000 a year, and there are 12,000 men employed there. I would ask the Financial Secretary why it should not be used for building the Lower Thames Tunnel—the road tunnel? There are the iron castings there that would be required, and a lot of electrical apparatus that would be required, together with ventilating apparatus and so on, and it could all be taken on by Chatham Dockyard. When they had built the road tunnel, they could go on and build the rail tunnel. It would keep them going for several years, and the prosperity of Kent would result in the absorption of a lot of these men—perhaps not quite all the skilled people, but a great number would be absorbed if this were worked properly, and it would provide work for many years. I submit that to the Government, and would ask the Financial Secretary to pass it on to his chiefs.
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    I now want to say a word about the Admiralty staff. The Admiralty staff has now grown to enormous figures. In 1914 they had 4,866, and now they have 7,971. The cost in 1914 was £483,000, and now it is £1,246,000. The personnel of the Fleet has been reduced from 151,000 in 1914 to 103,000, and the ships have been reduced from 566 in 1914 to 349 in 1925. The Admiralty staff is out of all proportion to the requirements of the Fleet. You cannot blame the Secretary to the Admiralty, who is one of the finest civil administrators in the Civil Service. He has to meet the requirements of the naval side. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone has always pressed, and pressed rightly, for a big naval staff, and he did great work in getting a- naval staff, but you can overdo it. You have in the Department of the Chief of the Staff the Operations Branch, the Plans Branch and the Naval Intelligence Branch. All of these could now be reduced and put under one heading. You have also the Torpedo Division, and the Gunnery Division. The Torpedo Division could be put under the Director of Mining and Torpedoes, and the Gunnery Division under the Director of Naval Ordnance.
    It is possible to make great economies in the staff inside the Admiralty. All that these people do is to make more paper work at the home ports, where they have to have big staffs to deal with it, and more paper work out in foreign ports, where the fleets have to have more people to deal with paper work. The whole Fleet is snowed under with paper work. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone, the hon. and gallant Member for Clackmannan (Commander Fan-shawe) and the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut. - Commander Burney) will agree with me that we used to have to send out torpedo returns in triplicate, mis-fire returns in triplicate, and all sorts of other returns as to primers, gunnery repairs, torpedo repairs and so on. The naval officer to-day is so snowed under with paper work that he has scarcely any time for studying his proper professional work, and you will find him wirelessing home from Singapore to know whether he is to order fresh beef or cheese. That is the sort of thing that goes on.
    With regard to Admiralty administration, during the War we had twice as

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    many ships as the Germans, we had 3,000 fleet auxiliaries, we had the Navies of America, France, Japan and Italy to help us, and yet we could not protect our commerce. At one time we only had 14 days' food in this country. Lord Jellicoe has said that it was the greatest menace that we have had in this country for 200 years. Why was that? It was because the Admiralty would not study the submarine boat. Admiral Bacon did all he could to press upon the Admiralty what the submarine boat could do. The hon. and gallant Member for Aylesbury (Sir A. Burgoyne), who is not in the Committee at the moment, and another torpedo officer, wrote a book on submarines. Did the Admiralty study it? Not a bit of it. They never studied it. They were not prepared at the beginning of the War for the submarine menace. Then, again, with regard to the air they were perfectly impossible. The airmen tried everything they could to help the Admiralty, but the Admiralty turned down the Zeppelins we tried to give them. Jutland would have told another tale if they had only had Zeppelins or torpedo-dropping aircraft, such as we wanted to give them, and proper aircraft carriers, but it was all turned down. The Admiralty will not look at new weapons; they live in the past. The Financial Secretary can look at this wonderful return, where it says "two cruisers of 33 knots, against the United States nine at 35 knots, and Japan 16 at 08 knots." That is the greatest condemnation of Admiralty administration there has ever been. They have had £550,000,000 of the hard-earned taxpayers' money.
    Mr. DAVIDSON: From where did the hon. and gallant Gentleman get his figures?
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: The hon. and gallant Member for Galloway (Sir A. Henniker-Hughan). He used to be the officer of my watch when I was midshipman, and he sent me to the masthead twice before breakfast every morning to get an appetite for the seamanship lesson. I never knew him wrong in any statement, and I take his figures because I believe they are correct. The Admiralty are past masters of sniping at the Air Department. The airmen can now say to the
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    Admiralty, "Put your house in order before you start attacking us." Our airmen did wonderful work in the War, and they are now working up one of the finest departments and organisations in the State.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not on this Vote go into the question of the Air Force.
    Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Surely it is in order to argue that it is better to construct aeroplanes to do certain work which the Admiralty propose should be carried out by cruisers.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is another point altogether.
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: On the Second page of this White Paper it says, "Aircraft carriers, 1." If aircraft carriers are down there as one, and we have to make provision for them, I do not think I am very much out of order in asking the Admiralty not to snipe at the Air Service. They have to carry airmen on board those aircraft carriers, and they feel this very much indeed. The country is just as proud of its airmen as of its seamen, and it is high time the Admiralty recognised that. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ask the First Lord to have a conference with the Secretary of State for Air and the Secretary of State for War, and get them together round a table and say you will not have the sniping of one Department by the other. It is bad for the public service. My party has a great majority. If hon. Members behind me come into office they are not likely to have such a big majority. If the Socialist-Labour party come into office they are not likely to have such a big majority. If you had a Coalition of hon. Members above the Gangway and hon. Members behind me, they are not likely to have such a large majority as we have. I submit that the First Lord and the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer should overhaul the whole of the Admiralty from top to bottom and try to make it an efficient service and an up-to-date service, and get them to think more of the future and not so much of the past. The taxpayers in my constituency urge me to press this on the Government, that they want as much economy as possible to justify the way they voted for the present Government at the last General Election.
    Sir A. SHIRLEY BENN: I wish to say a few words as an ex-President of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, and as Vice-Chairman of the Imperial Council of Commerce to which Chambers of Commerce all over the Empire belong though I am not authorised to speak for either, and to put before the Committee the views that are held by a good many business men regarding the Navy and the necessity for its being kept strong. First of all, we know that four-fifths of our food has to be imported, and I believe there is no man in England to-day who would be satisfied to see the control of the seas pass into hostile hands. In the second place, we have more merchandise on the water than any other country. We have more ships than any other country. We have a greater coastline within the Empire to defend than any other country. In the third place, we all want to see the Commonwealth of British nations get closer together, rather than the reverse. I cannot see how it is possible for this to continue unless the lines of communication are kept open and safe The Navy is the only insurance we have, and I hope no question as to how the premium is to paid will prevent that insurance from covering our risks. I want to draw attention to the present state of our merchant ships. We have 8,559 ships with a tonnage of 19,500,000. Of these, 420 are laid up. Those ships traverse every ocean, and it is only fair that they should have the protection of our cruisers when they are far away. It is a sad thing to think that of the 2,774 merchant ships destroyed during the War 2,197 were British. We have 80,000 miles of coastline between the Colonies to defend. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) asked, "Whom have we got to fight? Who are the people we are afraid of?" We ought to recollect that any nation or combination of nations which could put afloat 50 ships like the "Emden" could work havoc on. our trade. I hope the day will come when the Imperial defence of our Empire will be- settled by the statesmen, not only of Great Britain, but of our self-governing Dominions, and that they will settle how it is to be done on the advice of our experts. The policies of politicians may produce war or may keep peace, but it is only by getting experts to say
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    how the Empire is to be defended that we can have confidence.
    I am very glad indeed that a policy has been adopted and a programme laid down, for several reasons. The first is that when we have a programme, not only do we know what is going to be done, but the world knows, and it knows that no laying down of vessels arranged over a period of years can be intended for anything but purposes of defence. That is a very important thing. The second reason is that unless our dockyards are up to date and have skilled men they would be useless in time of war. I was told by some of the biggest shipbuilders in America that some of the best men they had were men who had been discharged from our dockyards and could not get work here and had gone out there. I think we are very apt to forget that 80 per cent. of the cost of these vessels goes in wages, which enable the men to get work and keep up their skill. If that work was not going on, the 80 per cent. that is given to-day in wages would go in doles, and the skill of these men, which is a great national asset, would be lost. Dockyards are needed in peace time for refitting the ships, but they are more needed in war time, and when the history is written of what our dockyards did in the last War it will bring no end of credit to this country and to our naval Service. Very few people know how the battle cruisers came into the dockyards and within a day or two had been through dry dock and been cleaned and sent out to sea again. I knew about it during the War and I could not help saying. "Thank God we have a Navy and a lot of naval officers who know how to do their duty!"
    I want to urge the Committee to realise that, although we are passing through dangerous and distressful times, we have a great Empire which, if we will only hang together, will help us through, and in order to keep our Empire, the Empire as a whole must have a strong Navy, and I hope the Dominions will join with us in the near future.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I am sure the whole Committee will share my regret that the hon. Member has brought his very interesting speech to a close so soon. I was hoping he would have gone on to explain, while speaking on behalf of the Associated Chambers of Commerce—
    Sir A. S. BENN: I said I was not authorised.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: But he said he was speaking as an Ex-President, and I was hoping the hon. Gentleman would reconcile that with the resolution that was published on behalf of the Associated Chambers of Commerce some time ago calling for a large reduction of expenditure. Everyone admits the vital necessity of the British Fleet and the paying of the necessary insurance premiums for an adequate Navy to protect our trade routes in time of war, but we are now faced with the prospect of Estimates of £70,000,000 as against £50,000,000 before the War. That is to be the total of the Estimates when the proposed new construction is being carried on. Before the War we had times of prosperity, and taxation was relatively light. Competition was keen, and, of course, there was a demand for putting down expenditure even with such taxation as there was, and the German menace was growing. Within a couple of hundred miles of our shores the German fleet was piling up, and the mind of everyone who took part in the Naval Debates in those days was full of the menace that might come from that fleet. Hon. Members opposite used to speak of war with Germany being inevitable. [Interruption.] The party to which I belong spent more on the Navy than was ever spent on the Navy before, and we brought the Navy to the highest state of efficiency. But then expenditure was £50,000,000.
    What is the situation to-day? Unemployment, industries staggering under a load of taxation, and demanding through all its authorised spokesmen a reduction of this taxation, scoffing at the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a reduction of £10,000,000, and demanding through its organisation and through the mouths of its spokesmen that there should be a reduction of 10 or 15 per cent. in national expenditure. The European menace from any maritime power no longer exists. Then there was what bon. Members called an inevitable war. Now there is not even a threat of war. Everywhere you look, whether at home, in the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean or out in the Pacific, nowhere is there any great conflict of interest, nowhere can you say that there is
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    a menace of war in the next 10 years. Indeed, in the Pacific, we are united in close relations with the U.S.A., Japan and France under the Four-Power Treaty of Washington, and do not the Government see in that a real protection for British interests in that area? At this time, in these circumstances, with no war inevitable, with no threat to the safety of the Empire, the expenditure is to be £70,000,000. Therefore, I say that whereas Germany constituted, obviously, before the War a menace to the safety, honour and welfare of the King's Dominions, to-day the perils which we have to face are financial and economic, and to propose new construction aggregating £58,000,000 for five years is not merely to squander the taxpayers' money and pile up unnecessary burdens on industry—
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Not for five years, but seven years. It is £37,000,000 for five years.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon—£58,000,000 for seven years. I do not think it really affects my argument, but I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to correct me.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The first five years the ships are being laid down. Those laid down in the last year and last year but one, of course, will not be finished till subsequent years. The new programme extends over seven years.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I understand. But even if it be £58,000,000 for seven years, it is not only squandering money and adding to the burdens upon industry, but it is calculated to induce misconceptions abroad as to the strictly pacific policy and intentions of this country, and thereby provoke a naval race in armaments, stimulate activity in naval armaments, until, in a few years, we shall be told the situation is altered, and, on account of increasing armaments in foreign countries, we ourselves must go in for a larger programme. What is the real argument for this programme? It is no good dealing with the arguments one reads in newspapers, or necessarily with those one hears in Debates. One wants to get at the real justification for this programme. Two are put forward Apparently, the one to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer attaches most im-

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    portance, as does, apparently, the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter), is the question of replacement—what I call the deficiency or replacement theory. It is quite true the Fleet is wearing out, and the Leader of the Opposition last year justified his policy, quite rightly—I voted and spoke in support of it—on the ground that you must not allow the Navy to wear out and to rust. But replacement, I submit, should not necessarily mean—and this is where I differ from the policy, as I conceive it—replacement unit for unit. It should be replacement having regard to the strategical circumstances, relative strength and the foreign policy of the country. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford, in a speech with 90 per cent. of which I warmly agree, defended the construction of these cruisers on the ground that they were needed for the protection of our trade routes, and he said, when you subtract the cruisers necessary for the work of the Fleet, you have only 30 left, and it required 32 to deal with the "Emden" during the War. I submit to the Committee that if that be so, then 30 ships seem to be rather an inadequate protection for the trade routes of this country in a war. If one ship required 32 cruisers to hunt it in the War, how can we suppose that even with 30 ships we shall be able to give adequate protection to our far-flung trade routes; The "Times" naval correspondent—and I think the Committee generally will agree-that very great authority attaches to the "Times" naval correspondent, whose articles appear in a most timely manner before a Debate, and instructed public opinion always attaches the greatest importance to them—also puts forward this deficiency theory. Ho says:
    "This prospective deficiency is not so much in respect of relative strength to other nations, but is the natural and inevitable outcome of the stagnation in shipbuilding since the War on the one hand, and of the condition of existing ships on the other."
    It is manifest, he says, that with the gradual obsolescence of the older ships a deficiency must result. Therefore, I take it that the policy is replacement of these old cruisers unit by unit, and it is that to which I particularly take exception, and I hope whoever answers for the Admiralty will give the Committee some further in-
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    formation. My submission is, that in re-placement we should take into account the relative strengths and the relative risks we have to meet. What are the relative strengths? What are the risks we have to run? In the first place, the German fleet, of which we were afraid 11 years ago, is at the bottom of the sea. As regards European Powers, no conceivable menace exists. Not only that, but they are not building fast and are not in any way accelerating their building programmes. The "Times" correspondent who attended the French naval manœuvres said:
    "Some misapprehension has been caused at times in England over French naval armaments, owing to the repeated discussion in Parliament of the naval programme It should be made clear that it is always the same programme which is discu66ed. This programme has remained unchanged ever since the Washington Conference, and with the exception of the submarines and the destroyers, none of it has yet been completed. Three light cruisers of about 8,000 tons were launched in 1923 and 1924, but none of them has yet been commissioned for sea."
    Therefore, there is no conceivable menace on the Continent. Take the Pacific. There, battleship strength is governed by the Washington Conference, and if you take other types of vessels, here, again, you find that none of the maritime Powers interested in the Pacific are increasing their armaments at a rapid pace at the present time. Take what the "Times" Tokio correspondent reports:
    "Japan is not building any submarines exceeding 2,000 tons, or any destroyers approaching 3,000 tons. The submarines that she is building are much inferior to those of our own new XI type."
    Therefore, the ships Japan is building are unsuited to offensive operations, and can offer no threat to us in the Pacific.
    "The first two ships of the new 10,000 class will be completed in 192S, but the other two ships of this class are not yet laid down, and it is not quite certain that they will not be a little delayed …. The report that the Japanese 10,000 tons ships would carry twelve 8-inch guns is, almost on the face of it, an exaggeration."
    7.0 P.M.
    Yet that is the Report which the Admiralty put into the Fleet Return this year, in order, no doubt, to stimulate us to vote the necessary credits for the additional cruisers. Then the correspondent goes on to make some other remarks, which all tend to show that in the Japanese Navy the sea-sense, gunnery

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    control and various other factors are such that that Navy constitutes no threat whatever to our interests in the Pacific. Take the comparison of cruisers. We have 52 to 20 of the next strongest Power, and 52 to 47 of the four next strongest naval Powers. I know a great many of these 52 are obsolescent, but let us take the most modern type. Let us take the 10,000-ton cruisers with 8-inch guns. Including the two about to be built for the Australian Government, we shall have seven of these cruisers building to two building for Japan and two building for the United States. Therefore, while I think the right hon. Gentleman was right last year in the naval programme which he proposed, and for which I spoke and voted—and I thought it was a plucky thing for him to come down and incur the suspicion and dislike which he knew he must cause among his supporters in the country; I think that the action he took then had the effect of bringing us at least level, or rather more than level—it had the effect of bringing us to rather more than the combined strengths of the two next strongest Powers in the most modern cruisers, and that advantage has been still further increased by the two additional cruisers ordered by Australia. If this programme is approved we shall have 13 plus the five which the right hon. Gentleman's Government built, and the two Australian cruisers, bringing the number to 20, compared with eight building and authorised in the United States, four in Japan, two Italian, and two French. That is 16 for the four next strongest naval Powers. Further, I say that the effect of going forward with this programme will inevitably stimulate naval competition in the other countries, because it makes us so infinitely stronger in this particular class of the most powerful class of weapon which is not governed by the Washington Agreement, and this impression of our own forward move, of our determination to increase our naval armament irrespective of those of other countries, would be strengthened by looking at the expenditure, at the rate and the tendency of naval expenditure, in the three principal naval Powers—ourselves, Japan, and the United States of America. You find in the years 1923–24, 1924–25, and 1925–26
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    that the United States expenditure, starting at 330,000 dollars went down to 322,000 dollars, and then in 1925 still further down to 307,000. Japan's expenditure goes slightly up, from 238,000,000 yen to 240,000,000 yen, and down again in 1925–26 to 225,000,000 yen. British expenditure during that time is going steadily up, from £54,000,000 in 1923–24 to £60,500,000 this year, and, if this programme is carried out, it must inevitably come, approximately, to £70,000,000 in future years. Another point I want to make is this, that we can afford to be a little less than level in laying down ships, because we are able to construct quicker than any of these other foreign countries. We cannot afford to be behind in ships actually commissioned, I agree, but we are very far from that. But we can certainly afford to be behind in laying down these ships, and the effect of the mere announcement of this programme is already reported1 by an Exchange Telegraph message from Washington, which says:
    "The British decision regarding cruisers again concentrates attention on the weakness of the Arms Conference, and it is predicted that it will stir up those in high naval circles who are constantly clamouring for a programme to match that of Great Britain. It is expected that a renewal of the cruiser-building race will be followed by an agitation at the next Session of Congress for an accelerated naval programme. It is pointed out that the United States is behind Britain and Japan in regard to cruisers."
    Therefore, I say that the effect of this programme will be to stimulate this naval race, to encourage navalists and imperialists in other countries to demand additional naval expenditure, and to rally public opinion against what they will regard as the aggressive designs of this country.
    Then I come to what I think is the most important consideration from the point of view of the House of Commons, and that is the cost of this programme. The cost of the old programme was £16,000,000 for the next five years. The cost of the new programme is to be £58,000,000 for the next seven years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of his speech, said that £58,000,000 spread over seven years is not such a very large sum. It is more than £8,000,000 a year, and more than the yield expected from his boasted Silk Duties. In addition to that, you must add what the First Lord

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    described in his speech introducing the Navy Estimates this year, as the automatic and inevitable increase in expenditure which will follow upon the actual payment for the ships that are being constructed. The most obvious of these is the expenditure on upkeep and personnel. I understand, and I should like to be corrected if I am wrong, that the personnel of these new cruisers will amount to 800 officers and men; and, if you allow for the cruisers which are being scrapped, and deduct them, you will be left with an increase of about 6,000 to 8,000 men in personnel by the time these ships are constructed.
    Think for a moment of the financial situation of the country. This is a lesson which I know comes better from the lips of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilford (Sir F. Wise), whom I see opposite. He is constantly drawing attention to this aspect of the argument—the expenditure of this country, national and local. Expenditure, through the national and local authorities, approximates to £1,000,000,000 a year. It is about one-fourth of the whole national income, against one-ninth, which was the expenditure before the War, and the expenditure has increased under this Government and is still being increased at the present time. The hon. Member for Ilford drew attention in a valuable speech on the Finance Bill to the important conversion which will have to take place within the next three years, £1,000,000,000: and he pointed out another £2,000,000,000, which we, ought to redeem of the War Loan. I admire the courage of the hon. Member in attending this Debate to-day. He is in an embarrassing position. He will either have to vote against his party, which, to anyone acquainted with his unsullied record of party submissiveness, would hardly be expected, or he will have to vote against the convictions which he so impressively expounded on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill.
    This seems to me to be the situation with which we in the House of Commons are concerned, and we ought to see that this great expenditure, unnecessary expenditure, on armaments, is not put through at a time of such great financial stringency. Not only do they propose this new expenditure on construction, but the Admiralty would not even effect the
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    economies which are necessary and which everybody knows can be effected in their own Department, until it was forced to as part of the bargain over new construction. When the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord introduced the Estimates this year, he said:
    "It may appear at first sight that an increase in the Vote of £4,700,000 is rather alarming, but I hope to be able to convince the House that in arriving at this figure we have had regard, and very careful regard, to economy, so far as it is compatible with efficiency."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 19th March, 1925; col. 2511, Vol. 181.]
    And yet we learn now with all this naval construction going through, that £500,000 can be taken off the Estimates within four months of their being introduced. The right hon. Gentleman complained, in the course of his speech on that occasion, that if he should economise other Departments should economise, too. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That is quite right. I can imagine the right hon. Member sitting at the Cabinet table with the heads of other Departments and paraphrasing the words of the song "I want to save money, but I won't save money unless you save money too." He must come before the court of public opinion with clean hands, if he is demanding economy in other departments. I think he will agree that it is our duty in this Committee to remind him that it is the Admiralty for which he is responsible. And, having effected the economies which are necessary in the Admiralty, we would welcome the prospect of his authority being added to the demand of the public for economies in other departments. It is therefore the evidence of extravagance, inefficiency, and feeble civilian control in the Government which terrifies us, and I submit that the construction of these cruisers is not merely an extravagance, but a dangerous financial and political risk which we cannot afford. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs), when he last addressed the House on this question, twitted hon. Members on this side of the House with never offering any constructive suggestions for the reduction of expenditure. I do not think he was quite fair. I have made myself and I have heard my leader make several constructive suggestions on this point.

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    At the risk of repeating myself, I am going to make six suggestions, some of which I have mentioned before, and which I think are perfectly feasible constructive proposals for the reduction of expenditure. My first suggestion is the reduction of staff and minor administrative economies in the Admiralty itself. I welcome the appointment of the new Committee to go into this question. I have mentioned this before, but the only reason I mention it now is in reply to the hon. Member opposite. I agree with what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford in regard to the economies which will now be effected under the instigation of the new Committee, economies which I think the First Lord of the Admiralty himself should have effected before he came and told us that he had worked out the Estimates with due regard, careful regard, to economy. The second point is in regard to the absolute necessity for the reduction of dockyards, which I certainly referred to in the speech which I made in the consideration of the Estimates. T am not going to repeat all the arguments which I used on that occasion. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] The hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Commander Burney) I see remembers the occasion. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone twitted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) about his weak spot with regard to Pembroke. But, as a matter of fact, I think there is a great deal to be said in favour of the retention of Pembroke on the strictest naval grounds. It is Chatham. Sheerness, and Portsmouth which are the most exposed at the present time to air attack. It is Rosyth and Pémbroke which are now the safest dockyards that we possess. But still that is a matter entirely for the Admiralty to decide in consultation with the Air Ministry, and, if they decide in favour of the scrapping of Pembroke, I shall certainly support the decision.
    Commander BELLAIRS: If we are always going to run away from the dangers of air attack we are going to increase the expenditure, for you will probably have to provide for a substitute dockyard at a safe distance, and then find air attacks reach even Pembroke. In other words, you will be increasing expenditure.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: There are dockyards on the Clyde, and on the Tyne also. At any rate, these dockyards to which I refer are recognised as being comparatively out of date, and quite unnecessary for the diminished fleet, very little of which is based on home ports at the present time. These dockyards were necessary when we had the whole fleet-concentrated in the North Sea, but now the principal station of the fleet is in the Mediterranean, and certainly a large amount of money could be saved by scrapping these. The next point is in regard to closer co-operation and consultation on level terms between the three fighting services, and particularly between the Admiralty and the Royal Air Force. Thus will come great adminstrative economies. I will not go into these, because they will no doubt be studied by the Committee which has been appointed. It will also give economies in wider fields. In that speech another suggestion I made was that there should be consultation with the Royal Air Force over Singapore. No report had been called for from the Air Force in regard to the strategic situation there. I should like to know if it has been consulted this year. The hon. Member for Hertford (Admiral Sueter) has touched upon some of the economies which I say could be effected by consultation between the Admiralty and the Air Force. But the hon. Member for Galloway (Sir A. Henniker-Hughan), in his speech to which we all listened, and I listened, with the greatest respect the other day, said that the Royal Air Force could never hope to protect commerce. That was one thing it could not do. As a matter of fact—
    Vice - Admiral Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: I did not say "never"; I said "for many generations to come."
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I am extremely obliged to the hon. and gallant Member for the correction, but war experience is against his view. I see that he is going to speak later on in the Debate, and he will have an opportunity of replying to these remarks. Aeroplanes, I suggest, do give most valuable protection to commerce. I would not put my view against that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman if I had not very high authority, the Chief of the Air Staff,

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    whose views are entitled to the fullest possible consideration, and as between him and the hon. and gallant Gentleman I would say that the Chief of the Air Staff at any rate has time on his side. Speaking at Cambridge University on 11th May he said:
    "If there were aerodromes suitably arranged and built, even though, they cost a few millions, it would save in expenditure. You need not tie air squadrons in every Spot of the British Empire to defend it, and so long as you have these facilities and arrangements the actual port itself becomes very mobile and will be a thousand times still more mobile when the great aircraft carriers of the future—the airships—come into being."
    Therefore I say that it is plain that the Air Force, even now, is capable, as the war experience shows, of being a valuable supplement to the activities of the nation in protecting commerce, and I think that it should be encouraged to take ever-increasing responsibilities in that regard. This brings me to my fourth proposal, which is that we should go slow in construction while we are undertaking research. First, into ship construction. What sort of ships are these for which we are invited to vote £58,000,000? Here I would quote the authority of the very eminent naval architect whose authority will be recognised by every Member of this Committee, Sir George Thurston, the eminent designer. He says that the interior of such a cruiser is so fully occupied by boilers, machinery and magazines, that it is not humanly possible to provide immunity from torpedo or mine attack.
    These are the ships on which we are asked to spend £2,000,000 each—more than the Dreadnought. The hon. and gallant Gentleman no doubt will reply that they have one great protection—their speed. There is one enemy against which even that will be no protection and that is the aeroplane. The faster the target moves, the more closely the speed of the target approximates to that of the aeroplane, the easier it will be for the aeroplane to destroy that target. Then again these ships like the "Effingham" and the "Hawkins" will be obsolete before they are put into commission. The next point into which there should be inquiry is the potentialities of the Air Force at sea. We reduced the expenditure of holding Iraq from
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    £20,000,000 to £3,000,000 or £4,000,000, and are doing it now with greater efficiency and with great saving of life, through the use of the aeroplane. The Air Force can evolve into a mobile Empire Defence Force at present on sound economic lines, and you could substitute for your fixed defences a far more effective defence of aeroplanes.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) pointed out that aeroplanes can destroy ships at the present time The accuracy of then bombing is improving every day, and in Iraq I am told that last year, when they made some experiments in dropping bombs from a height of 8,000 feet they got 80 per cent. of hits in a 50-feet zone. No cruiser can attack a battleship—that is the one excuse which is now made for battleships—but an aeroplane can always attack it with bombs or torpedos and therefore, it is an infinitely valuable weapon at sea. A few cheap little aeroplanes can attack a ship and sink it or render it incapable of carrying out a bombardment of a city or a fortified place. The hon. and gallant Member pointed out that in the course of experiments on an American battleship in the United States one bomb sank a battleship. One hit from a bomb or even a bomb dropped in the vicinity of a cruiser would suffice to sink it.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Has the hon. and gallant Member read the report in which it is stated that it took eight hours to sink the battleship?
    Rear-Admiral SUETER: Seconds.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: The actual sinking of the ships took a mere matter of seconds. It is not necessary even to hit these vessels. From experiments which have been made we know that a 50-lb. amatol bomb dropped within 50 feet of a German submarine would have so damaged it that nothing would have saved it from sinking, and, as one hon. and gallant Member has pointed out, you may have 2,000-lb. bomb6 at the present time, and, dropped at the side of these 10,000-ton armoured cruisers, they would do far more damage than the 50-lb. bomb dropped at the side of the German submarine. Then what conceivable chance could our £2,000,000 cruisers have against a quarter of a million pounds worth of aeroplanes and bombs? What folly to

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    vote £58,000,000 on these cruisers, plus £12,000,000 on the others under construction, when experience proves that a small fraction of that sum spent on aeroplanes would give you so much more war power.
    Finally, what is the policy of the Government with regard to the Washington Conference? We are entitled to demand that the Washington Conference shall be reconvened, to try to obtain limitations in the lighter types of naval armaments, particularly of cruisers and submarines. One of the. things which we have to criticise most severely is that the Government bring this costly programme before us in the existing state of trade and finance, and make no simultaneous proposal for a reduction of armaments. My final suggestion is that the Departments should be rationed, and a Committee representing the three fighting services should be told that they have so much money at their disposal and that they will have to spend it in the most efficient way. Therefore I say in conclusion that I voted last year for the policy of the Government presided over by the present Leader of the Opposition. I spoke and voted for the construction of those cruisers. I would willingly do it to-night if I thought that these new proposals were essential to the maintenance of the British Empire, and to the safety of the trade routes. Still more, if by this means we could reach the absolute standard of naval security which is always held out by all the Members opposite as being the effect of meeting the demands of the Admiralty. But I believe that armaments, however strong, can never give absolute security, and I believe that the lessons of history in every country in the world would prove that. The proposals made to-night will not even enable hon. and gallant Members opposite to sleep quietly in their beds. We shall not even have met the demands of the Admiralty, but we shall have added greatly to the anxiety of all thoughtful and patriotic men, who are appalled at this addition to the already heavy burden under which industry is staggering at the present time, by which our finances are embarrassed and on account of which our people are suffering and because I share to the full this disquiet and perplexity, and because we believe that the
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    interests of national defence no less than of national economy would be better served by the policy which I have indicated that I shall vote against these Estimates..
    Sir HARRY FOSTER: I suppose, after the remarks of the hon. and gallant baronet about Portsmouth, that I must apologise for speaking in the name of that great port, but of all the strange things which I remember having heard in this House, the strangest is the remark of the hon. and gallant baronet that Portsmouth has survived its purpose and is now out of date. I venture to think that when the memory of himself and myself has long since passed away from this House and this land, Portsmouth will still continue to be recognised as a great essential naval centre of this country.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I would not venture to take that view on my own responsibility. The authority which I have is a recognised work of reference on naval questions, "Brassey's Annual," in which it is said that the march of events points to Chatham in particular, and to a less extent to Portsmouth, as being geographically obsolete.
    Sir H. FOSTER: I am obliged for the quotation, but I do not think it need modify what I have previously said. My own conviction, for what it is worth, is that long after the memory of the hon. Baronet and myself has passed away Portsmouth will continue to be recognised as a great naval centre and dockyard. I am speaking, not only the opinion of the overwhelming majority of those whom I have the honour to represent in this House, but I believe also of the vast majority of fair-minded and moderate people when I say that the programme which has been announced, and which by this Token Vote we are asked to sanction, is modest and unprovocative in a high degree. In the face of what other nations have done since 1919 and are still doing, this programme can be described truly as defence and not defiance. It recognises to the full the need for economy in every spending Department of the Government, but it also recognises plainly the duty of this Government, and indeed of any Government—a duty which was recognised very fully by the late Socialist Government

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    with regard to the sanctioning of the five cruisers—namely, the duty of maintaining at least the narrow margin of safety with regard to the maintenance of our Fleet. It is, in the words of the Prime Minister on last Thursday, entirely a replacement programme, and I think that that statement was thoroughly justified by the remarkably moderate and able speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    You have only to compare the proposals of to-day with the proposals of January of last year, when my right hon. Friend, the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, was the First Lord of the Admiralty, to see how even to-day—to pursue the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Baronet—that policy of adaptation, of modifying and remodifying in accordance with the changing needs of the time has been carried out in the present programme. Only as recently as January of last year the then First Lord of the Admiralty said that the programme urgently needed, merely for replacement, was to lay down immediately eight light cruisers of 10,000 tons, together with destroyers, a destroyer depot ship, gunboats, a special ship for the Persian Gulf, and an aircraft carrier. The difference between that programme and the programme of to-day is great. We have abandoned the time-honoured two-Power standard, and to-day we are recognising the one-Power standard. I was glad to hear the very emphatic statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that at least the Government are determined to maintain that standard.
    The needs of our wide-flung Empire, notably the guarding of the highway of the seas for the ships which bring to our people necessary foodstuffs and raw material for industry, put us in a totally different position from that of any of the other great Powers. Our needs are far above those of any other great Power in that respect. Our expenditure is a low insurance premium to cover the huge risk which we have to take. No need of economy, however urgent, would justify the neglect of proper provision for the defence of our people. What is necessary, as was said by the hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral
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    Sueter) is that we shall be satisfied that we get full value for our expenditure. Indeed, just as in the cause of education any extravagant and needless expenditure has the effect of endangering the cause of education and antagonising the taxpayer and making him feel that his money is being wasted, so, with regard to our defences, our greatest foes are those who associate needless expenditure and extravagant administration with the cause of the defence of the Empire. That the views of those who urge the paramount needs of replacement, and of those who, on the other hand, equally urge the paramount need of economy, have found accommodation, and that an agreement has been reached, should satisfy every reasonable person and is a matter for congratulation. There is one matter which still causes grave dissatisfaction and which is at present a grave injustice, and that is the continued silence regarding that which Parliament has already sanctioned. I refer to the marriage allowance for officers. I hope that before the Debate closes the First Lord will give us some satisfactory assurances on that point.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The First Lord of the Admiralty would be out of Order if he did so.
    Sir H. FOSTER: With great respect I would remind you that as recently as last Thursday my Noble Friend the Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor) and the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha) both addressed the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister's reply was that, while that had nothing to do with this question, it could be answered in this Debate. That was something in the nature of a pledge. I hope that, in view of that very clear statement, it may be possible within the Rules of Order to give us some kind of assurance. I appreciate that the particular subject to-day is the cruiser programme. I was cruising about on another subject. In spending this money for a necessary purpose it is some satisfaction to feel that the money of the taxpayer is very much better expended in this way than if expended on the demoralising dole. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, I am quoting an hon. Member of the Labour party when I say that. I agree with him that the dole is very demoralising
    Mr. LANSBURY: As long as all the top ones feel it too.
    Sir H. FOSTER: In that connection, I agree with the sympathetic words of the Leader of the Opposition to-day, that while it should not be the governing factor in connection with naval expenditure, the amount of labour that was being employed was not an immaterial consideration. Everybody will agree that, so long as we get anything like a return for expenditure such as this, it is not the time to dislocate labour and to add to the number of unemployed. Nor do I believe that our people will ever grudge what is needful for the maintenance of an adequate Navy. The question has been asked, where is the menace? I think the answer is, "The strong man armed keepeth his house." I know of no surer means of inviting encroachment and attack than for other people in the world to see that we are weakening in the maintenance of our defences. There is no truer means of bringing on the danger of war than to conduct yourself in such a way that you are unprepared for it. That we should not waste money, of course we all agree, but to maintain our fighting forces in full efficiency is one of the first duties of any Government. For these reasons, speaking with confidence as to the full approval of my constituents, I heartily support the Government, and I thank the Committee for having listened so patiently to me.
    Mr. J. HUDSON: The last speaker evidently visualises this country going on into an infinite future, constantly shackled with the impedimenta of war, Portsmouth to be there as a naval station, and the memory of himself and the rest of us quite forgotten. The hon. Gentleman concluded his speech with what I regard as the reason why that must be so. "The strong man armed keepeth his house," the hon. Member reminded us. It did not work in the case of Germany, and it has not worked many times in the past, when empires have strongly armed themselves, and, indeed, by strongly arming themselves have made themselves at the same time a cause of suspicion in the world, and have created for themselves enemies who finally destroyed them. The hon. Gentleman reminded us of that well-worn doctrine that we heard frequently before the War, of being prepared for war as the real safeguard for peace. Again, I
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    submit to him that it has not worked. The last War proved that to mankind in general.
    Mr. HANNON: We won it, anyway!
    Mr. HUDSON: But you did not win the peace. You had war, and as a result of war you have poverty and degradation and misery scattered throughout the world. It is that of which I am reminding the hon. Gentleman when I draw attention to the failure of this theory, at any rate with the higher purposes that I hope all of us have in view. I was interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Drake Division of Plymouth (Sir A. Shirley Benn). He took a very different attitude as a business man, as one who is very closely connected with the business circles of the country, when he said that the only insurance we have is the Navy. I do not know how you can look on the Navy as an effective insurance for the next war, when your great urban centres are likely to be assailed from the air by the most terrible agents of destruction that the world has ever seen.
    Commander FANSHAWE: Against what country is the hon. Gentleman visualising this war? There are many countries which could not send aircraft here at all except by sea.
    Mr. HUDSON: The hon. and gallant Gentleman should not ask me that question. It should be addressed to the Government. What is the enemy that the Government is aiming at in putting forward this programme? I shall deal with the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question before I finish, I hope, and I will suggest what ultimately will be the enemy and the source from which ultimately will come the destruction that at present we fear. The Navy cannot be regarded, in the face of modern warfare, as any longer the absolute insurance that the hon. Member for the Drake Division asserted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answering the question of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) as to what was the menace, said that the present strengthening of the Navy is proposed in order to keep the Navy at what he called the one-Power standard. That is not a stable standard. The more we arm, the more the strongest nation against whom we are arming is likely to respond in the

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    building of further armaments. A one-Power standard will, in the long run, take you to exactly the same position as that to which the two-Power standard took you before 1914. Surely the position to-day is, as Louis XIV said, that the nation which has the last round is the nation that, is going to win in this race of armaments.
    At the present moment we are heavily burdened and our exports are falling, while the exports of America are increasing, and the exports of France, in spite of all its difficulties, are increasing. In the years to come the capacity to provide armaments on the one-Power standard basis is going to be greater—at any rate, judging from present trade conditions—in many foreign countries than it is here at home. If this policy is pursued, of placing on the shoulders of the people an extra burden of £58,000,000 which shackles the trade of the country—and remember it was presupposed that 6d. on the Income Tax would shackle the trade of the country—it is quite likely that there will be a great difference between the capacity of foreign nations to finance their navies, and our capacity to finance our Navy, and that difference will become still greater. Therefore, what we seem to be embarking upon is a hopeless race in armaments which must lead ultimately either to our being beaten in the race or, as proved to be the case in 1914, to another great war in which no one in the long run will prove to be the victors.
    I notice that the First Lord of the Admiralty has tried to make this expenditure look as small as possible by suggesting that it should be spread over a period of seven years. As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman does not know whether in 1929 he will not be confronted with new proposals for the further strengthening of the Navy, particularly if the present proposals lead to other countries strengthening their navies. I suggest that the First Lord should stick to his own White Paper which visualises five years as the period with regard to which this total expenditure is being considered. It may be it will take seven years before the final cruiser of this programme is completed. I prefer to consider the position from this point of view, that whether it be five or seven years during which this expenditure is to be carried out, what
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    we are confronted with is a proposal from the Treasury Bench that we should spend out of the public funds a sum equivalent to more than is in the £ Income Tax. Let us remember all the talk there has been about the serious burden involved in 6d. in the £ on the Income Tax, and all the praise given to the Chancellor's reduction of 6d. That seems unimportant beside a proposal like that which we are discussing. What we are doing now is making it more difficult for trade to revive. Even from the point of view of armaments, we are making it more difficult to catch up with those competitors who will be inspired to greater efforts as a result of our efforts and in the long run disaster awaits us.
    I desire to examine the question, not merely as regards the effectiveness of the Navy or the effectiveness of these particular proposals for the purpose which is suggested, but I ask the First Lord whether his Department has fully worked out the relationship which in future the Admiralty must bear to the other fighting Services if defence, which is supposed to be the final justification of these proposals, is to be the test. The question was asked just now: Who is the enemy? Against whom are we preparing? I frankly reply that on the information given from the Treasury Bench I do not know. I am left to guess or to judge from the general situation in the same way as the hon. and gallant Member opposite who interrupted is left to judge. The conclusions to which I come are these. At the present moment we seem, through our foreign policy, to be trying to cement an agreement with France, so that at least France is not regarded as likely to be the enemy in the next war. If the Pact means anything we seem to be trying to remove Germany from that possibility also.
    Who is left? An hon. Member who spoke from the Liberal benches referred to the possibility of America, but the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, by a gesture, indicated that he, at any rate, had no idea that America was to be considered as the enemy. The name of Japan falls loosely from the lips of hon. Members in discussions on naval matters, but is that the final word? I suggest the Government are making it perfectly plain by the policy which they are pursuing to-day that whatever group of enemies we may have in the next war, in that

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    group they intend to place Russia, and we are preparing to meet a group of enemies in which Russia is included. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said that?"] Nobody says anything. That is the trouble. One cannot get to know what we are dealing with. I am only taking the facts as other hon. Members can take them, and trying to arrive at a judgment on the basis of those facts. I suggest that, taking the declared policy of the Government, taking the answers to questions which fall from the Foreign Secretary in this House, Russia is the suspect nation, and it is more likely than not that Russia in the future is to be regarded as one of the group of enemy nations.
    Mr. HANNON: Not if she behaves herself, and plays the game.
    Mr. HUDSON: If all the other fellows would behave themselves we would keep out of war, but, unfortunately, the other fellows have judgments of their own as to our behaviour, and there are disagreements and you have war. That interruption carries us nowhere. I am trying to face the actual conditions, and I suggest that in the next war we are going to be involved in a struggle in which, apparently, at least one European nation will be involved against us—probably more if the diplomacy of that foreign nation is successful, and I do not expect they will sit down and do nothing while we are carrying out our policy of alliances in other directions. It is quite likely in the next war that the air arm of the enemy can be used effectively against these shores, and that it will be possible to destroy centres of population in this country by means of aerial attack. Everybody would admit that this would be so if France were going to be the enemy. Therefore, I say in this matter you are not visualising a situation in which your enemy is to be far removed in the Pacific. You are likely to be confronted with the possibility of great aerial attacks on centres of population very soon after war is declared.
    Why then speak of the insurance afforded by the Navy? Why build new cruisers? When your centres of population have been destroyed, what satisfaction will you get by being able to patrol the Pacific with half a dozen cruisers, whether they are 10,000 tons or 8,000 tons?
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    It may seem that I am arguing in favour of an aerial policy. For the present I am only submitting this, that if you are considering defence you would be better engaged in spending money upon aeroplanes or aerial defence than upon the Navy. Of course I have my own point of view on the matter. I had an opportunity of discussing that issue when the Air Estimates were before us. I do not believe, having regard to the development of modern methods of warfare, that you will ever again secure the defence of these shores and of the people who live within them by lethal weapons of any kind, whether naval, aerial or military. We had better frankly face the issue. If the world is to be saved from the catastrophe which threatens we should bend all our resources—as hon. Members on the Conservative side have pointed out—to carrying out plans for the limitation, the reduction and ultimately the abolition of armaments. If I thought the Government were working for that end I should not feel so alarmed about the proposal now before us, but the Government, if they are working for that end, are not succeeding in securing any sort of effective disarmament conference. When this question was discussed a little time ago President Coolidge in a message to Congress said:
    "I have expressed my desire to see the work of the Washington Conference on the limitation of armaments properly supplemented by further agreements for further reductions. It has been, and is, my expectation that we might hopefully approach other great Powers for a further conference on this subject as soon as the established and settled policy of Europe has created a favourable opportunity."
    There is in other lands a clear willingness to come to conference with us upon this important matter, but how can we expect to win or retain the confidence of other lands in our bona fides regarding disarmament if we put forward proposals of this kind? Our own Prime Minister recently sent a message to the League of Nations Union, in which he said:
    "We may gradually succeed in creating conditions in which disarmament may become a practical proposal, but such an achievement will lose value if the nations of Europe have not meanwhile acquired the will to disarm."
    8.0 P.M
    The nations of Europe to-day do not believe that we are acquiring the will to disarm. They see in these proposals

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    a reason why they should follow in our tracks and build cruisers and other weapons, and the more the Government persist in this wasteful type of expenditure—which, as I have tried to prove cannot secure us defence in the long run—the more are they holding us off from likely success in the disarmament conference on behalf of which I am pleading. The other difficulty we are confronted with is that not only do we need disarmament if we are to obtain. security, we need to see the development of a process of arbitration. That theory we stand by, but where do we stand in practice? Our Government have refused to accept even such a super-proposal as the Optional Clause. They are prepared to go into a pact with Germany and France in which they would guarantee arbitration in so far as it operates between other countries, but they have entirely failed to indicate the practical policy by which we can avoid this great expenditure. I object to the proposal in toto. I object to it because I feel that as long as it persists, as long as the increase of armaments takes place in this country, so long will other countries be stirred against us, and we shall come to the catastrophe of a new war, one which will make the last war pale into insignificance. Hon. Members know all that science has accomplished since the last war. You can call your weapons, weapons of attack or of defence, aeroplanes or what you like, but it is poison and putrefaction that humanity has been able to visualise that waits for us when the next war comes, and it is because I believe that the Government's propoal will help to bring that war that I oppoe them.
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLE: I have listened with great care to all the speeches to-day, to the speech of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. J. Hudson) and to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which he told us what he considered was the only menace. It was a very reasonable speech, a statesmanlike speech, and he said that the only menace is the fact that the Fleet is wearing out. That fact the hon. Member for Huddersfield does not seem to realise, for our safety is based upon the Fleet. The right hon. Gentleman's speech was clarity itself. He explained where we
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    stand. The ex-Prime Minister made a contribution to the Debate, but he places his faith in the air. The hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter) also places his faith in the air. He mentioned a case in America, where a ship was anchored, or was run ashore, and the aeroplanes were able to sink her in a very few minutes, or seconds. Now the "Goeben" was run ashore in the Dardanelles. We tried to bomb her three times. We failed in bombing her. They got her off after the third attack on the third night and she is still in being. Some people are frightened of the idea of France, but of all the nations of the world I think we have less to fear from France than from any other. She could not beat us when she had double our population, and, even if she were our enemy—but she is now our friend—it would be lunacy on her part to be unfriendly with us. But take it that she were hostile and that her Air Fleet was finer and better and stronger than ours. What was she able to do in Morocco, within a few miles of her frontier, with her Air Fleet? You do not hear that she is bombing the Riffis. On the contrary, you hear that the Riffis are turning France out of their towns. If the aeroplanes are as strong as we are given to believe, would they submit to be thrown out of what they regard as their own territory? France would bomb the Riffis.
    The right hon. Gentleman the ex-Prime Minister pins some of his faith to disarmament. Personally, I do not believe in disarmament. I believe that disarmament has never prevented war in the history of the world, while armament has prevented it. It has kept us a sea peace since 1812—a hundred years. [An HON. MEMBER: "What of 1914?"] For 100 years we have had no enemy attempting to land on these shores. I do not believe that disarmament has ever prevented war, but I think it has made bloodshed certain. It has been the nurse of misery and slavery to the nations who practised it. Look at China, where it is derogatory for any man to practise arms. Arms and armies are looked down upon. You know how the nations of Europe and how Japan is treating China. If China were only armed—and she has some of the finest fighters in the world—if she had a population of 400,000,000

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    saturated with the idea of defending their own country, do you think anybody would touch China? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) mentioned the other day:—
    "The fast spender, the fast cruiser, and the slow spender."
    I have done it myself. I know that any fool can spend money, but a wise and intelligent spending for our own safety, for our own needs, for our own progress, for our own prestige by which we rule, and for our own credit by which we live, that is most valuable. We have heard the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair). I think he stumbled rather in his figures. Figures are curious things. You can make figures, perhaps, prove anything, but I will say this of figures, it is more difficult to make them appear to prove the fact than it is to make them prove an assumption. If you doubt that, try to prove to your neighbour accurately that two and two make four, and you will find yourself, however clever you may be, that it is not at all an easy matter. Let me take an instance of fast and intelligent spending. That was the first "Dreadnought," and it was built in one year. That made a record for any dockyard. She was full of new ideas—revolutionary ideas—and in one year she was built at Portsmouth Dockyard. I think that was a record for any dockyard or any private firm. That was money well spent, intelligently spent and wisely spent, and it was far-seeing expenditure. Now let us take slow spending. I will take the case of the "Effingham." The "Effingham" took eight years to build, from 1917 on. She is now going to be commissioned in the middle of next month. Eight long years, and she cost half a million of money more than she need have done in consequence. The plans were changed, the ideas were changed, she was not built under one man but under several. I do not know if any hon. Member has over tried to build a house. If he is not an expert, he will find the whole plans changed long before the house is built—and the outside of the house will be exceedingly ugly. It was the opposite with the "Effingham." The outside is beautiful, but the inside is absolutely putrid.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: She was not built on the Clyde.
    Sir B. FALLE: It is not a matter to joke about, for this reason. She was undoubtedly built for the North Sea. In 1917 there was no other thought but the North Sea. She was built for the North Sea. She is a hot ship, an uncomfortable ship, her torpedo tubes do not work, her messes are small and very hot, and her sleeping accommodation is the same. She has confined spaces. There are, I believe, on the ship, 750 men, and 400 men have 15 basins and two tin baths to wash in. [Interruption.]
    The CHAIRMAN: I must ask hon. Members to listen. I am the only person who is compelled to listen.
    Sir B. FALLE: This may seem a laughing matter, Sir, but it is not. You will recognise my point in a moment. This ship was built for the North Sea, and next month she is going to be sent to the hottest station the Navy goes to, and if she is hot in this climate you can imagine what she is going to be when she goes down the Red Sea in August, and when she takes up her station on the East Indies Station in the temperature of the East Indies. Her galley has to be reconstituted, and her fans do not work. She is not a comfortable ship. She cannot be a happy ship and she cannot be a healthy ship, as anyone who knows anything about those ships knows, and the "Effingham" is going to be the counterpart of the "Vindictive," her sister ship. I ask the Admiralty to see to it that at any rate the fans of this ship shall be in working order, and that for the future the men shall be relatively as comfortable as the officers themselves. The officers themselves in the "Effingham" are in no very comfortable quarters, and when they get to a temperature such as you get in the Red Sea and on the East Indies station, it will be a hell upon earth.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: That is terrible language.
    Sir B. FALLE: When you speak of replacing, I trust that before very long the Admiralty will be able to find some ship to replace the "Effingham." To send a ship like that to the East Indies is a waste of money, a waste of good material, and a waste of men, who cannot be replaced, and it sends a very unpleasant and unhappy feeling right through the service. Instead of building as fast as we built the "Dreadnought"

    531
    or as slowly as we built the "Effingham," I would very much rather accelerate the building of those ships that are now laid down, and I will tell the Committee the reason why. I would do it to try out their speed, their worth, and their style. I was reading a book in the Library yesterday by a very well-known admiral, and he tells us how he went to sea with a fleet of eight battleships, all of one particular class, and that when they got in a sea-way and in rough water the report to the Admiralty was that they were absolutely unfit to fight except the water was as smooth as a mill pond. Those eight ships were absolutely wasted. Fortunately for us, the War did not come while we were relying on them, and therefore, I say: Let us take those ships that are now building, and let us send them to sea to find out what work they can do, and how they do it, before we build more to take their place, because if they are failures, those we build afterwards like them will also be failures.
    That applies also, and very much so, to the "B" cruisers, the 8,000-ton cruisers, instead of the 10,000-ton cruisers. If you build an 8,000-tonner, you may be sure you have to sacrifice something. You must sacrifice speed, or guns, or armour, and probably all three. In 1812, since which, happily, we have not had any trouble with the United States of America, we sent frigates to sea, and so did the United States, but what they called frigates were entirely different from what we called frigates. They were the 10,000-ton frigates against our 8,000-ton frigates, and it astonished the people of this country very much to find that our smaller frigates were being sunk by the American larger frigates, which happened whenever their big frigates attacked our email frigates. When we met on even terms, like the "Shannon" and the "Chesapeake," we kept the balance even. The same thing happened at Zanzibar during the last War, where we had an old ship called the "Pegasus." There she was; she could not run away, and she could not fight, and a German cruiser came, and at long distance killed 25 of her men, and holed her, and she had to be run ashore to prevent herself sinking. It was our own fault, first, because we left an old ship where she ought never to have
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    been left, and, secondly, because we did not try out our ships sufficiently before we built them in numbers. Again, there was a scandal during the late War, when the "Goeben" escaped from Admiral Troubridge. Admiral Troubridge had three cruisers with him. We know now that if he had attacked the "Goeben," he would very likely have had his three cruisers sunk, because the "Goeben" was faster, and she carried 11-inch guns, while he carried nothing but the old 9·2-inch guns.
    We have been asked over and over again who is the enemy. I should say this: Do not build against anyone, but build for our security and for our freedom, but if you want enemies, you can have France if you like, you can have China if you like, you can have Japan if you like, and you can have the United States. I said just now we were not likely to quarrel with France, but at present we are the third only in strength in the Pacific, and I see that Hong Kong is asking for another regiment to assist them there. Is it realised that we could not land a single soldier in Hong Kong if Japan said "No"? That is a fact. Japan is our political friend, at the moment at any rate, and the United States is also our political friend, but that is only so long as our interests do not clash. When those clash, political friends very quickly become political enemies. There are many Members in this House who will remember that from 1910 to 1914 we were told that Germany wa6 not possibly visualising England, that she could not bring herself to fight England, and that she was building her fleets, it was said by some, to amuse the Kaiser. We know better know. We know the luck we had in not being caught entirely unprepared. We know now that we were inferior, as has been said again and again in this House, in every single department except that of officers and of men. In these, fortunately for us, we were supreme, or, as I have said, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs did me the honour of saying what I said some time back, that we were supreme, but he thought that if we could have put the English sailors into the German Fleet and the German sailors into the English Fleet, the result might have been very different.
    Against whom are we building? Let us take the words of the right hon. Member the ex-Secretary of State for the Colonies.

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    What did he say the other day? He said "I use my common sense when I am talking of building against another country." Let us use our common sense. Have we a single friend in the world? If we have, I say frankly that I do not know him. Have we any land, have we any island, have we any coaling station, that other nations do not covet? Are we sure of the United States friendship? We know that during 1915 Admiral Benson, writing to Admiral Sims of us, said: "Do not let them pull the wool over your eyes," and "I would as lief fight the one as the other." That was the American Admiral Benson's view of the difference between England and Germany. Are we even first in the Atlantic? I doubt it. Have we nothing the great nation on the other side might covet—may covet—from Jamaica to Bermuda, to the Bahamas, to Newfoundland, to Canada herself? Is there nobody coveting even the little Falkland Islands? You know they do. Do you think nobody covets Australia, that great land with less people than there are in this city of ours? Would no nation like to annex New Zealand? Of course they would. What prevents them? What prevents them from sending their overflow population to these countries? The British Fleet, and the British Fleet only!
    The time is short, and this is but a breathing space; therefore, let us put our house in order. Let us put our dockyards in order. They need it. Portsmouth is the headquarters of the Fleet. The premier dockyard requires a good deal of money spending upon it. Portsmouth needs making what it ought to be. We ought to provide a slip there oft which we can build a big ship if we want to do so. We have at present only one slip, and it will only take a small ship. There is no dock on the south coast which can take one of our big battleships—not one! Let us make the senior service the great service, the one in which I believe the whole future of this country depends. Let us make it a happy and a contented service. Let us have no more "Effinghams." Let the men be at home in their ships, contented and comfortable—the man as well as the officer. Let us get a return for the money that the nation spends on the Navy. Let us not forget even now—and this is the opinion of almost every man who takes the trouble to visualise the Navy—that the
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    Royal Navy is not merely our sure shield—it is the bed-rock—for the safety, security, and freedom of this country.
    Mr. W. M. WATSON: Possibly I shall be the only representative of a dockyard constituency who will go into the Division Lobby against the programme which has been put forward to-day. I want to say quite frankly, so far as I am concerned, that I shall go into the Division Lobby without the slightest hesitation. I know there is always a difficulty before the representative of a dockyard to oppose proposals put forward by the Admiralty; but I feel compelled to take a different line from that which has been advocated by those who represent the Royal Dockyards, and again to register my dissent from the policy advocated here this afternoon.
    Sir B. FALLE: Will my hon. Friend allow me to say that his dockyard is different from all the other dockyards, inasmuch as it is a new one.
    Mr. WATSON: It may be differentiated from the other dockyards, but its experiences are similar. As a matter of fact, it has had a worse experience than have other dockyards during its short history. It has suffered more than other dockyards; despite that, I am prepared to go into the Division Lobby and vote against the present proposals.
    Both during this Debate, and the Debate that took place a fortnight ago, I must confess that I have not been impressed by the case put up for the dockyards. I never heard a weaker case for a new programme than that which has been put forward on this occasion. I thought the policy put forward by the Labour Government last year would have been a policy which would have carried the Admiralty over for at least a number of years. Here, however, we find the Board of Admiralty back again demanding a greatly increased programme and one which is going to entail a very considerable amount of expenditure for many years. We have heard about the policy which can carry us up to the year 1930. Then we commence again under the terms of the Washington Conference in 1931 to build battleships up to 35,000 tons. We are entitled to build a couple of battleships in 1931, and in 1932 another two battleships of exactly the same

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    proportions. We have to remember that, when we come to 1930, the policy up till then does not end there, or stop for a number of years. We are going to build bigger battleships than we can do under the Washington Agreement at present, battleships of 35,000 tons as against present-day cruisers of 10,000 or thereabouts. What we require to do is to make up our minds that we have, not reached the end in 1930. We simply start over again. I do not think that the case which has been put up here to-night by the Government spokesmen, by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is one which, has convinced those who can take an impartial view of this particular question.
    I am not going to traverse the ground which has been already traversed—or much of it. Many speakers have dealt with the many aspects of the question. As a matter of fact, we have reached a point when it is pretty largely a repetition of what has already been said. So far as I am concerned, I want to make it perfectly clear that, although now the representative of a royal dockyard, that my first concern is for a peace policy. I have made it clear during the whole of the time I have represented Rosyth in this House that I stand for peace; first at home, and for everything that can possibly achieve peace, or by which it can be advanced. I must confess that I view with a very great concern the development that has taken place since the present Conservative Government came into power.
    During the existence of the Labour Government, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out this afternoon, we saw developed a spirit of harmony and good feeling between the nations, with possibly in the not far distant future a further Washington Conference, and a further elimination of armaments. I support that in every possible way. I must confess that I am disappointed since the Conservative Government came into office, for that good feeling which was engendered by the Labour Government seems to have receded, and the prospects of any further Washington Conference has also receded. We seem, once again, to be entering upon a race in armaments, which will undoubtedly, as did the pre-
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    War armaments, lead to war. After all, our foreign policy ought to dominate our naval policy. Our naval policy ought to rest upon our foreign policy. It ought to be the object of the Government, and the policy of the Foreign Minister to try to get understandings between the nations so that we can do away, to a, very considerable extent, with those armaments, which were piled up in bygone years. I believe that even the dockyard workers were prepared for a big step forward in the direction of peace and disarmament. The first Washington Conference, after which the Admiralty put over 10,000 men out of the dockyards of this country, undoubtedly gave the dockyard workers such a shock as they had never had before, but the trend of feeling amongst the nations since that time, and during the existence of the Labour Government, prepared those who were engaged in naval service, both those engaged in active service on the ships and those in the dockyards, for a further step forward in the direction of peace, and I believe it would have been possible to keep up a progressive policy of disarmament, not only reducing the number of warships but, perhaps, reducing the number of dockyards, and, certainly, the personnel inside the dockyards.
    During this Debate and from the newspapers outside we have heard of great things that are going to happen under this policy of economy. There are to be great savings during this year, amounting to something like £500,000. We have had only the vaguest information from the Parliamentary Secretary as to how those savings will be effected, but the newspapers have been telling us that huge reductions are to take place in connection with the dockyards. We have been told that Pembroke Dockyard is to be closed, and Chatham and Sheerness dispensed with, and that there is to be a big reduction at Rosyth. I do not need to say a great deal about Rosyth. The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair) put the matter very clearly when he showed, what I have also claimed, that Rosyth is not only the newest but the safest dockyard in Great Britain, and, in addition, is the only dockyard in the country that can take the biggest ships we have in the Navy. So I hope we can have an assurance from

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    the Parliamentary Secretary that there are to be no economies so far as Rosyth is concerned, and that Rosyth is going to be kept—[Laughter.] Yes, I think I am justified in putting forward the plea that Rosyth should be kept up to the highest pitch of efficiency. It is the only dockyard we have in Scotland, it is the newest dockyard, it is the most efficient dockyard, and I hope that when this economic axe is being used by this Committee—
    Mr. LANSBURY: I hope they will smash them all! Sack the lot!
    Mr. WATSON: I hope they will deal very gently with Rosyth. I hope that at any rate they will bear in mind that when the big reduction of 10,000 men took place in 1922 proportionately the largest number of men were taken out of Rosyth; and I hope the same is not going to be repeated in any economies that may be advocated by this Committee.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Where did they go?
    Mr. LANSBURY: I expect they emigrated.
    Mr. WATSON: Quite a number are still unemployed and are on the registers of the Employment Exchanges. A number were transferred, I know, to the southern dockyards. They came from the southern dockyards to Rosyth and were re-transferred. They were the established men, the men for whom the Admiralty had either to find work or to pension off, but the hired men were thrown on the scrap heap, and I daresay many of them are still on the books of the Employment Exchanges. I express a real hope that so far as Rosyth is concerned the "economy axe" will not fall on that dockyard as it did on the last occasion, and that the Committee will look to other methods of securing economies than the method adopted in 1922. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he might take into consideration the suggestion made to him on his recent visit to Rosyth. He saw things there with his own eyes. He interviewed a number of deputations, one of which made suggestions as to economies. There is one economy in particular that concerns the reconstruction of "Glorious" in that dockyard. I hope that instead of wasting money in doing temporary work in order
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    to make that vessel seaworthy and able to go to a southern dockyard, the work of completing the ship will be undertaken in Rosyth, and that money will not be wasted on "Glorious' as it was wasted in the case of "Furious," which was transferred to a southern dockyard. I have no desire to take up time, but I do not wish to give a silent vote on this matter. I say quite frankly that I am not convinced that it is necessary to go in for a programme of this kind. So far as I can see, we are to be launched into an enormous expenditure in naval armaments for many years to come, at a time when we ought to conserve our resources as much as possible.
    Lieut.-Commander BURNEY: I am sure the hon. Member who has just spoken can rely upon all parties in this House being cordially in agreement with him when he states that everything that this country should do should be in the direction of peace and simultaneous disarmament—not disarmament, but simultaneous disarmament. I would like to refer to some of the preceding speeches. First of all, there was the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I suggest to him that he might read a book that I was reading a month ago, written by a friend of his, Mr. H. G. Wells. It was a reproduction of various articles in the newspapers. It was entitled, "The Folly of the Five Cruisers." It was made up of articles written by Mr. Wells on the Leader of the Opposition's policy last year. It might have been, word for word, the speech of the Leader of the Opposition to-day, and that, I think, shows the difference between a gentleman in power with responsibility and when he is out of office. The Leader of the Liberal party, when he breathes economy, might recollect that he took such political action as he knew to prevent Pembroke Dockyard being closed, although he knew full well that the Admiralty wished it to be closed. I think the most remarkable speech of this Debate has been delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He also reminded me of a book that he has written dealing with Antwerp, and how we came into Antwerp, and in it he says, "I did this and I did that," In the discussion as to how we manage our affairs to-day it is "I did this" and "I did that," and as soon as I saw the paper

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    giving me the requirements of the Admiralty, I knew at once that that was what was required. That seems to show that the whole management of our affairs is conducted in an extraordinarily slipshod manner, and there is no co-ordinated arrangement as to what are the requirements of one service or what are the requirements of the others, and that our foreign policy is not co-ordinated with our military and naval policy.
    I think the speeches of hon. Members who have spoken in this Debate may roughly be divided into three kinds. In the first place, those that deal with the technical position; secondly, the economic position; and, thirdly, the Imperial or foreign position. Dealing with the technical position, I do not think there is any person or any party who does not agree that purely from a technical position the programme put forward by the Admiralty is justified. That is to say, we are only maintaining what is undoubtedly the policy of the country, and that is the one-Power standard. Whether it is right that that policy should be carried out to-day or not, I do not say, but purely from the technical point of view I am sure even the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) would agree that the technical position does exist for the programme which the Government have put forward. Therefore I do not think it would be any use to spend any more time trying to prove the technical position.
    I now turn to the economic position, and that is one which should be emphasised even more than it has been. During the short time I have been a Member of this House, which extends over a period of two and a-half years, I have witnessed different parties competing with each other in putting forward schemes to bribe the electors. One party votes 1,000 millions for houses; another party votes nearly 800 millions for pensions; but do we realise, and are we satisfied, that we have the economic resources to shoulder these responsibilities? This year there has been another burden placed upon us, and which so far has not been mentioned in this Debate, although from the economic point of view I think it is more important than any other, and it is the fact that during the last six months the deadweight burden of the National Debt has been increased by £1,000,000,000.
    The CHAIRMAN: We cannot have a discussion upon the economic position of this country on this Vote. That would be more appropriate to the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, and the hon. and gallant Member must keep more closely to what is contained in this Vote.
    Captain BENN: As this Debate has wholly taken the form as to whether the financial resources of the country are sufficient to stand this expenditure, I think the economic position of the country is an important consideration which should not be ruled out.
    The CHAIRMAN: In that case hon. Members would be able to discuss any single item, and if you are at once going to begin to discuss the merits of one item of this kind I do not know where it is going to end. In that case we might discuss the amount of the Education Estimates or any other charge on public funds.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Would it be in order for us to discuss the question whether, instead of spending this money on these foolhardy ships, we ought to be spending it on education?
    The CHAIRMAN: That would decidedly not be in order.
    Lieut.-Commander BURNEY: I will not spend any more time upon that point. What I wish to observe is that I believe, owing to the changes which have occurred since the introduction of the gold standard, we shall get a large deficit in the Budget this year, and it is because of this extra burden of £1,000,000,000 in connection with the National Debt that I venture to think those questions should be taken into serious consideration, in view of the state of industry, when we are considering devoting a good deal more money for what are, after all, non-productive works. I do not want to go outside your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I think the country should realise that owing to the introduction of the gold standard we are face to face with a temporary burden which may amount this year to £30,000,000 or £40,000,000, because the dead-weight value of the National Debt has increased by £1,000,000,000.
    It was suggested that our building programme should be put off for one year because the variation of the price level means a temporary burden, and it

    541
    may mean that these invisible charges during the alteration of the price level will not be in existence when we obtain stability. I think that rather puts us on the horns of a dilemma, because no economy is so expensive as that which endangers our national safety. The problem is whether it is better to resist expenditure upon armaments for next year or whether it is better to incur that expenditure at the present time. I believe that if the whole of the money required for this new building programme could be obtained by economies in the various Government Departments, the building programme is absolutely justified. Personally, I am not satisfied, from anything I have heard to-day, that the question of economy is being treated upon a proper scale or under a sufficiently comprehensive scheme. We are still dominated by pre-War considerations, whether it is from admirals, generals or politicians. We should consider whether the whole organisation of our fighting forces ought not to be overhauled.
    There are two things to which I wish to draw attention. For the first time in our history we have separated the defence of these islands from the defence of the Empire as a whole. I think there is a general measure of agreement that the defence of this country, which is the heart of the Empire, is now entirely aerial, and the defence of the outer Empire is almost entirely naval. Therefore there must be a vast redistribution of the whole of our expenditure. Hon. Members representing dockyard constituencies have been supporting their own dockyards, but in my opinion not more than one dockyard is needed in this country. Of course, we want dockyards more at Singapore and places of that kind. I believe that in a few years time it will be more dangerous to have ships in England than to keep them outside this country. We want a very considerable reorganisation in regard to our whole outlook upon these matters.
    I would go a step further. Have we really applied the lessons that we learnt during the War, when not 5 per cent. of the forces actually fighting were professional forces—when, in other words, there was an influx of civilians to fight the War? The War was really fought by civilians. Ninety-five per cent. of the
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    persons fighting were civilians who were trained rapidly, and only 5 per cent. belonged to the professional fighting forces. I do not think those figures are far out. Where does that lead us? It leads us to this conception that, although our professional fighting forces may be of value for police work or for frontier wars, when you come to war upon a grand scale they are practically useless unless they are augmented with 95 per cent. of civilians. If that be so, our professional fighting forces should be police and training forces. That makes it necessary for us to consider what policy we should adopt in regard to the manufacture of armaments and the development of our dockyards.
    If we are going to increase our forces by 18 or 19 to one with hastily-trained civilians to augment our professional fighting forces, they will all have to be provided with arms and munitions and all the paraphernalia of war upon a large scale and rapidly. Therefore, it seems to me that what we want to do is to make arrangements with commercial firms so that they will have such plant as may be necessary for the production of these various weapons, ships, aircraft and the like, and that during peace time those plants may be supported and kept in order by a small subsidy for overhead charges. The upkeep and organisation of the plant and so on would be supported by the profit-earning capacity of these private firms. Then, if war broke out, or if there were a question of having to obtain munitions, we should only have to pay for the actual munitions, and not for the overhead charges which would amount to some millions a year. If that be a correct conception of what war in the future is going to be, it seems to me that the whole of our dockyard policy is absolutely wrong, that we do not want these white elephants which have great political power in the House of Commons. It is not the fault of the Admiralty that they have not got them down; it is because the Government are impressed by the persons who represent the dockyards in the House, who say, "If you do that we shall lose the seat." I would ask each political party in turn whether any dockyard Member is worth a quarter of a million a year, because it means paying a quarter of a million of public money a year in order that we may have within our midst dockyard Members.
    Mr. LANSBURY: And then Cook goes and blues it.
    Lieut.-Commander BURNEY: I always believe in saying quite bluntly what I mean, so that I shall not be misunderstood. That is the actual fact of the position, and I challenge anyone in this Committee to say that it is not correct. The hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. W. M. Watson), in whose constituency Rosyth is, has just spoken, and has said that it could not possibly be done away with. I hope Rosyth will be put into cold storage. Two hon. Members for Portsmouth have also spoken, and so it goes on. [Interruption.] I agree that those in the North can keep going under normal conditions, but you will never get commercial work in shipbuilding in the southern yards, because they are too far away from the coal, the ironworks, and everything of that kind. They are economic white elephants, and the sooner the Admiralty realises that the better for the country.
    I quite admit that it wants courage, but do they realise what this expenditure on armaments is going to mean? We are going to have the Secretary of State for Air coming down here year after year and demanding at least £5,000,000 each year. Can the country support the overhead burden of three great fighting forces? The overhead burden of two great fighting forces, the German Army and the German Navy, almost broke Germany's back before the War. Now we are going to try to keep up three great fighting forces. I believe to-day—I have said so before in the House—that the first move ought to be a complete combination of the Admiralty and the Air Ministry, in order to save £10,000,000 a year in overhead charges. I think every hon. Member will agree that to-day there is an enormous waste of money due to overlapping and lack of co-ordination between the various supply Departments, the various staffs, training colleges, medical establishments, and the like. Each Government in turn, since I have had the honour of being a Member of the House, has treated the House with contempt in every Debate that has taken place, whether on the Air or on the Navy. Member after Member has got up and impressed upon the Government the necessity for co-ordination and the necessity for economy by coordination, but no action has been taken. It has only just been forced upon this
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    Government by recent episodes. They have nothing to be proud of, nor had the Government of hon. Members opposite. We pressed upon the late Government the necessity for an inquiry into the fighting forces when they were in office, and they promised it, but they never held the inquiry.
    Mr. LANSBURY: We were turned out.
    9.0 P.M.
    Lieut.-Commander BURNEY: They had plenty of time. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Air Force!"] I am very glad that they were engaged in the Air Force. It shows that they were getting up to date. Taking all these considerations into account—the economic position, the great trading difficulties, and the absolute lack of effort on the part of the Government up to the present day to try to economise by co-ordination—I do not believe that the Government have made out any case, so far, for the building of these cruisers this year, or for the voting of any further money by the House, purely from the economic point of view. As I said before, from the technical point of view I think there is a case, but it is a case which is overruled, necessarily, by other conditions. From the economic point of view and from the point of view of departmental administration, I do not think the Government have made out a case of any kind for the building of these cruisers.
    There is, however, one other factor, namely, the Imperial factor, and in regard to that there is a point of view which I have not heard mentioned so far in this Debate, but which is of such great importance that I believe it overrules both the other cases. I believe that not only does it justify the Government in the action they have taken, but that any other Government in the same position would have taken the same action. The reason for the condition to which I refer is that recently Australia has voted money for two cruisers to be built in this country, on the Clyde. If the Government had not gone through with their cruiser policy, they would necessarily have created a political crisis in Australia. It would have probably led to the resignation of Mr. Bruce. I ask the Committee very seriously to consider this point of view, because it is sufficient in my opinion to overrule the whole of the economic case that has been put forward both by

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    myself and other speakers. This country is in an extremely artificial condition. The Empire to-day is of more value to us that we are to the Empire. We are not self-contained. They are for many purposes We are sinking slowly under the great burden of taxation and the burden of our responsibilities. We cannot much longer continue to support by our own unaided efforts the whole of our Empire. It is essential, as their populations grow—there are 16,000,000 white people in the Empire, and in another generation the white population may be greater—that they should assume their responsibilities for defence. I quite agree that, until we get much better communications within our Empire, we shall not get that political and economic entity which we all desire. Those communications, I hope, are coming, but pending that, and pending a closer co-ordination between all parts of the Empire, it is vital to us that we do not stifle in any way the efforts made by the Prime Ministers of any of our Dominions to assist us in shouldering the great burdens that we have to carry.
    If the Government had not taken the action they have taken to-day, I believe it would have made it extraordinarily difficult, perhaps for New Zealand, perhaps for Canada or the other great Dominions, to come to our assistance and we might have destroyed Mr. Bruce's political career, because he was the Prime Minister of Australia who took that responsibility and made that contribution to our great responsibilities. After all, we all really want the same thing. We want economy and we want safety. But we must look far ahead. We must see how our great race movements throughout the Empire are developing, and therefore we must shoulder those burdens and make those sacrifices for the purpose, not only of cementing the bonds of Empire but of fortifying those statesmen who live out in the Empire in helping us to carry our burdens. It is for that reason that I appeal to hon. Members opposite to withdraw their Amendment to reduce the Vote so that those in this country, speaking through their representatives in this House, may send a united message to the Empire upon these lines: "We have great burdens to carry. You are slowly growing to manhood. We shall want your
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    assistance in time. We have realised what you are doing now. We appeal to you as soon as you obtain manhood to shoulder your burden like men and to come on an equality with us and, either per head of population or on the basis of trade carried, to tax your people for the upkeep of your defence force."
    Captain BENN: We have listened, as we always do, with the greatest interest to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I cannot follow every proposal he has put forward, but a great many of them seem to me to overlook entirely the true post-War spirit and the mood of the people as it is after the War has been fought and won. In the first place, he advocated, as I understood it, a sort of private enterprise in war, the overhead charges being best met by subsidised private firms who would be ready at the word "go" to supply a full equipment.
    Lieut. - Commander BURNEY: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has rather mistaken me. The War Office already subsidises farmers for horses. The Admiralty subsidise liners, and the Air Force subsidises civil aviation to get a reserve of pilots. I only want to extend that.
    Captain BENN: It depends whether you extend it to things that are munitions of war or to things like horses, which can pursue a more useful avocation. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman overlooks is that we have entered into a covenant to abolish the private manufacture of munitions of war, and indeed that covenant has been continually overlooked in this Debate. Many people have tried to define what our standard of strength should be. The definition I should select and accept, and vehemently support, is that to which we gave our assent in the Covenant of the League of Nations. We said we would undertake to reduce our armaments to the minimum consistent with national safety. Of course, that is a matter of opinion we are not going to discuss, but that is indeed the standard to which we, in common with all the great nations of the world, unfortunately with three exceptions, have set our hands, and it seems to me quite clear that it is from that standard that we must work.
    We are not discussing to-night an ordinary Vote 8 at all. We are really discussing what is a Naval Defence Bill.

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    It is nominally £100, but it is in reality £58,000,000. It is not a Vote for this year, it is a Vote for five years, and we certainly intend to oppose these Estimates this year and every year when the necessary charges are proposed. Whatever we may do, it is the intention of the Government, by this token Vote, to which the totally inadequate time of one day has been allotted, to commit this Parliament for five years to this huge naval programme. As far as the Cabinet is concerned, the fight is over. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us a very interesting and authentic account of the negotiations which have gone on between his Department and the Admiralty. He has been beaten in the Cabinet and his last fight is fought, because if he had been beaten this year he would have lived, at any rate, to fight another year, but this White Paper shows that he has been beaten for the whole of this Parliament, and if we pass this Vote to-night the Government will hold that we are committed certainly those who support the, Vote will be committed, to a naval programme of five years' duration. The amazing thing about the Debate has been that up to this moment we have not had any official defence of the programme. I have been present at many discussions on construction, but I do not remember one in which the First Lord of the Admiralty has not risen to explain the technical reasons of national safety which justified him in putting forward his proposal. To-day we have had nothing of the kind. The Secretary to the Admiralty, whose contributions are always welcomed, will not himself pretend that what he said was an attempted defence. It was a short reply such as might have been given to a deputation from the dockyard workers whom he sometimes meets, although it was the House of Commons sitting round him and asking for some justification from him of this enormous Vote. The First Lord has had his victory. Many First Lords of the Admiralty have had their victory. I remember Mr. McKenna's victory over the now Chancellor in 1909. But I do not remember that any First Lord has attained to that pinnacle of success when he could lead the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a chain and compel him to defend his policy.
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    Some say that a Debate of this kind is a technical matter in which laymen should not interfere. It is certainly a proper occasion for the many qualified technical experts to express their views, but I deny altogether that a naval programme is a matter to be decided by the Admiralty on technical grounds. There are many considerations which come into the fixing of this programme, and have nothing whatever to do with the Admiralty, and of which the Admiralty has no direct cognisance. There is the question, referred to by the last speaker, of the distribution of our money between the three Services, and especially the growing power of the Air Service. There is the financial question, and there is the question of employment, with neither of which the Admiralty has any direct concern. There is the question of foreign policy, with which the Admiralty has no direct concern, and there is another question, which has not been referred to particularly in this Debate, and that is the feeling of the common people on these matters.
    The Admiralty come forward with their programme, and we are entitled to ask what sort of reckoning the Admiralty has vis-a-vis this House in reference to their programme, and the demands they put forth. I will not take the years immediately after the War, but I will take the three years preceding this one, namely, 1921–22, 1922–23, and 1923–24. In the first year the Admiralty extracted from this House £83,000,000, and even the Admiralty could only spend £75,000,000. In the second year they asked for £64,000,000, and could only spend £57,000,000, although I have no doubt they did their best. In the third year, they asked for £58,000,000 and could only spend £54,000,000, and this year, as has been repeatedly pointed out, they come forward with Estimates cut to the bone, as we are constantly told, and yet within three months they are able to discover an economy of £500,000 in the said Estimates. I think it requires a few more of the obiter dicta of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to explain Estimates of that character.
    We are told that there is going to be a committee to inquire into this and the other fighting Services. I do not know who the chairman is to be. There was one eminently qualified civil servant

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    suggested. The Prime Minister told us that the burden can actually be reduced. That is to say, it is going to find in economy in the Admiralty Estimates something from £7,000,000 to £8,000,000 or £10,000,000. What sort of Department is it that is so financed that the hope can be held out of an economy of that kind by means of a committee of civilians who are to inquire into its business? The Parliamentary Secretary may shake his head, but that is what the Prime Minister told us. He said that the result of the inquiry would be that the burden could actually be reduced. Where is the reduction to take place? We have had appeals by Members representing dockyards. I sympathise very cordially with dockyard Members. It is their duty to stand up for their constituents, so far as it is consistent with the national interest. But if it be possible to abolish the dockyards, because they are not wanted, why was it not done last year or on some previous occasion? Does not the Admiralty see that it is a grave reflection upon their own administration that these expenses are going on, and have been going on, and they are willing now to reduce them under pressure, when, in point of fact, they might have been reduced years ago, and money saved?
    With regard to this new committee, I wonder what sort of fate it will have. The Geddes Committee was presented by the Admiralty with provisional Estimates—again cut to the bone—of £84,000,000, and the Geddes Committee found that they should be reduced to £60,000,000. Before the Geddes Report was off the press, the Admiralty issued, in the most surprising manner, a rejoinder to a Government Committee. That was the fate of the Geddes Committee, and, so far from obeying the dictates of the Geddes Committee to reduce their Estimates from £84,000,000 to £60,000,000, they only reduced them to £64,000,000, and that only after £11,000,000 was taken off as a result of the Washington Conference. If Sir Eric Geddes, an ex-First Lord of the Admiralty, backed by enormous public opinion at that time, suffered such a fate at the hands of the Admiralty, what is going to happen to this unfortunate civilian who, with his two adjutants, is going to perform this task?
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    The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us about the programme, and I should like to ask the First Lord this question. It is known that the first programme put forward was greater than the programme agreed upon. That put forward by the present Colonial Secretary in the last Parliament, at the beginning of January, was also considerably in excess of the programme agreed upon. The present programme is also considerably less than that put forward. When the first programme was presented, it was described as "an irreducible minimum." Last year the present Colonial Secretary, when he spoke shortly after the right hon. Member for Aberavon had taken office, said in 10 years we must have 52 cruisers, and that we must get them laid down at once, because from 1927 to 1928 we should be very busy on destroyers, and in 1931 we should be able to start on battleships under the terms of the Washington Treaty, and he said we could get better prices if we built at once. He said there was a standard type of 10,000 tons, and the First Lord of the Labour Government went on to say, referring to the standard type of 10,000 tons, that if we pitted inferior cruisers against enemy vessels of superior type, we were simply sending our men to certain death. What has become of all this? There was another minimum programme, and yet the Admiralty reduced it. They say there is a standard type, and, if you do not adopt it, it is certain death to our men, and yet they cut off 2,000 tons, and reduce the strength of the ship. In the case of this sort of Estimate, this sort of chattering and bargaining, what possible weight can we attach, from the point of view of this House, to the Navy Estimates?
    I come to the second point, and that is about the distribution of the money between the three services. I am not qualified to speak in any way as an expert, but I think laymen are beginning to ask what arrangement the Government has for seeing that the total amount voted year by year for the defence of this country is fairly distributed—I do not mean in any sense in equity, but from the point of view of defence—between the three services. I do not think we have any guarantee at all. I think there is an inclination to play the Board of Admiralty against the Air Ministry, for

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    lobbying and Cabinet fighting, and which Minister has most prestige, or which threatens most often to resign. That is not a satisfactory way of settling the defence of this country, and I am certain among laymen there is a growing feeling that some power is required which is able to envisage technically the needs of the three services, and divide the money fairly between the three.
    I do not know whether I might put one technical point. I would not venture to do so, except with the co-operation of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter), under whom I served for a time. What about the defence of these cruisers from aeroplane attack? As everyone knows, even at 2,000 feet in the air you can see over an enormous field. A fast ship going along leaves an enormous wake, a great white streak. I have seen it. An airman can see it, and it is a thing which can be seen by an airman ever so much farther away than it can ever be seen by a man on a deck of a ship. An airman can adjust the drift of his machine by it, and approaching at the rate of three miles a minute he is out of sight and within the minute he is over the cruiser. He need not hit the cruiser, he can go anywhere near the cruiser with two or three small bombs. What I ask the Admiralty is, what would be the effect of such an attack by bombs upon the structure of the ships for which we are voting £58,000,000 tonight? It is quite clear if they are going to defend the trade routes they will come very often within the range of land air stations both in the Mediterranean and other places, and I will be very glad if the First Lord in the course of his reply can say whether, and if so, what defence they will have against this perfectly simple attack by aeroplanes with bombs.
    I come to the third point, the second matter that is outside the category, namely, the financial aspect of the subject. We have a programme of £59,000,000 and we have to add to it the additional cost of maintaining the ships. I think I am right in saying that the cost of maintaining a ship in commission is about a quarter of a million pounds, and from that we must deduct the cost of any ship for which it is alleged to be a replacement. It is perfectly clear it is often overlooked that the capital cost of a ship is not the end of the expenditure. We are merely
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    spending money in order to open another outlet for the expenditure of money. In passing I should like to take up what the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) has said about the distribution of the service of defence between the different members of the Empire. It is perfectly obvious to anybody who follows the news that the problem is becoming more complex, more difficult and more delicate, in regard to the co-ordination of view, of imperial view, as between the different parts of the Empire and the burden of defence as between different parts of the Empire. There were some figures given by Sir Percy Scott in a letter—I have no doubt they are quite accurate—in which he said that the cost of naval defence—I leave out land forces for obvious reasons—was something as follows: Australia, 9s. per head; New Zealand, 4s. 6d. per head; South Africa, 11d. per head; Canada. 1s. 2d. per head, and Great Britain, 27s. 5d. per head. If these figures were right, I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge can say that we are not in these islands bearing, and gladly bearing, our fair share of the burdens of defence for the whole of the Empire.
    Sir C. KINLOOCH-COOKE: He said exactly the opposite. What he said was an appeal to the Overseas to bear their share.
    Captain BENN: I was trying to put as delicately as I could that we were in fact bearing a considerable share, and I wish to put it in such a way that could not possibly give offence. What is sometimes overlooked is that money is essentially a fighting commodity. It also is a munition of war. People think ships and armies the only things, but money is as much a means of defence as ships and guns. The Admiralty cannot be expected to know this. It is not within their ambit. If, during the War. we had not been able to lend money to Russia; if at another time our money had not been good enough to support the Italians, and at another time we had not been able to back the bills for the French, the War might have come to an end in a different way. These countries. when they wanted this essential help in the War, did not go to the Admiralty or the War Office. They went to the Treasury. Therefore I say that it is important to remember that the credit of the country

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    is as much a military defence of the country as anything that floats on the water. Nobody could say, seeing that the National Debt was £20 a head before the War and is now £200 a head, that our credit has not by these debts been very severely impaired. We have only to remember that it is only a few days since that a Dominion wished to borrow in this market, and was headed off to borrow elsewhere.
    There is another matter which the Admiralty knows nothing of and which we must take into account in deciding the reasonableness of its demands. It is sometimes said that these cruisers mean employment. I do not know whether the Admiralty has any Press Department, but the statement has appeared on high authority in many newspapers that each of these ships will employ 3,500 men in three years.
    Commander BELLAIRS: It was in answer to a question in this House.
    Captain BENN: It was exactly what I thought, an unofficial friend of the Admiralty made the statement. If you are going to consider the question of employment, there are a great many other things to think of besides the 3,500 men, much as I would wish to see them put to work on these ships. If you are going to use employment as an argument to build warships or any ships of war, then it is good-bye to disarmament, because other countries will use the same argument. Already the argument has been used in reference to the five cruisers that were laid clown by the late Government, and in fact the Italian paper from which I quote, the "Corriere d' Italia" said they would follow the example set by Mr. MacDonald because they wished to employ their unemployed. The second point in reference to employment is that over-taxation, which is rendered necessary by these vast programmes, creates unemployment. It is at least reasonable to say that many men's jobs will be affected by the over-taxation required by this programme.
    There is a further and very simple and conclusive answer. The Admiralty have undertaken to find the money by economies in other Departments. In this White Paper that we had there is a reduction of £150,000 in wages. I think that the Financial Secretary or the First Lord, when he replies, might tell us perfectly definitely what is meant by the
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    reduction of £150,000 in wages. It is no good saying: "We are laying down these cruisers and in three years we shall be employing 3,500 men"; and then saying: "I am finding the money by discharging men from other jobs that they now hold." However ardently any Member, who represents the workers, might desire to have employment, I am perfectly certain that there is not an engineer in the country who would desire to have a job created for him if he thought it meant the discharge of another man from a job. On the financial side one thing is perfectly clear. If we go on with this programme and if we permit this Government to develop their armament policy in the way we are doing, we must say goodbye to the hope of the social services, to which we attach so very much importance. The fighting Services before the War cost about 35s. per head. Now they cost £2 12s. a head. The Civil Services, which cost about £l 1s. per head before the War, cost about £5 7s. per head now. So, to put it in another way, taking the non-fighting services, pensions, education, insurance and so forth, whereas 30 years ago we were spending £20,000,000 on Civil Services, we are now spending about £300,000,000 a year. We applaud that expenditure. We believe it is necessary, and we are going to support it. So far as I am concerned I desire to see it extended. One of the main reasons that I oppose on financial grounds these large expenditures is because if they are granted then there will not be the money for rendering life, I will not say more intolerable to the people in the industrial conditions in which they find themselves to-day.
    I will say one word in conclusion. There is already ample evidence to show that the decision to embark upon this great naval programme is exciting similar decisions abroad. Quotations have been given from the American Press. Even the result of last year's programme was described by the "Times" correspondent at Washington, I think, in this way:
    "More will be undoubtedly heard of the British desire to steal a march."
    Mr. Wilbur, the Secretary for the United States Navy, said:
    "The only present method of keeping up the ratio is by competitive building along such lines,"

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    that is to say, outside the limit set down by the Washington Conference; and the other day the correpondent of the
    "Times" said:
    "The appropriation for the cruiser programme cannot be deferred much longer."
    We know that the eight ships which appear in the Fleet Estimate are not appropriated at all. The money has not been voted. The Americans have been holding their hands. I have little doubt that the result of our decision to-night will be to cause Congress to vote the money for these eight ships, and when that money is voted, and the ships are laid down, they will be quoted in argument by speakers in this House as a reason for entering into a larger programme of construction. We stand tonight at the parting of the ways. The Government have to decide whether they are going to secure the safety of our country by competitive naval building or by disarmament by agreement. Almost every effort to secure disarmament has failed. The first effort was the proposal by the Armaments Commission of the League that Governments should bind themselves by a money limit, by saying ' we take as our datum line our expenditure on aramaments last year, and we bind ourselves for so many years not to exceed it." To-night we are destroying any safeguard of that kind.
    Then the Washington Agreement, so far as it went, was the one brilliant achievement in the way of disarmament, but already the Government are telling us that at the expiration of that Agreement they must have their slips clear to start the building of ships again. Then their was the Treaty of Mutual Assistance, which was abandoned. It was disapproved of by the Labour Government, no doubt for excellent reasons, but with it went the chance of international mutual disarmament which it contained. Then there was the Protocol. It did include arrangements for conferences on disarmament, and there was every hope of disarmament from that, and that was destroyed by the present Government. Every effort of the League of Nations to settle this difficult problem by mutual agreement so far has been destroyed, and Government speakers have made the suggestion, outside, that they have abandoned the pledge that we gave to the
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    League in the Covenant for maintaining the minimum of armaments consistent with national safety. The Home Secretary said the other day:
    "I do not want the Navy merely for safety. I want it for Empire building."
    That is what we do not want. Our certain hope of peace lies in some international agreement for peace, and if we had never gone in for this programme of naval expenditure we should be nearer to realising the hope that was born after the conclusion of the War. Then we have a fanciful phrase from the First Lord himself. Somebody said, "Why do you not co-operate?" and his little joke was: "We do co-operate. We do the cooing and they do the operating." With that little joke he turned down proposals on which alone any hope of civilisation rests. We have had from none of the Government spokesmen to-day any reply as to what the Government are doing for international disarmament. I have cited four cases in which proposals have been abandoned. Last year President Coolidge was putting out feelers in this connection. He said, "We must wait until the schedule is settled." Then there was the London Conference, and the Dawes Report, and that was a satisfactory settlement of that question. The Dawes annuities are now forthcoming, and it appears, therefore, that the way is clear for President Coolidge's conference to take place. What are the Government doing about it? When we ask the Foreign Secretary we get the usual resentful, evasive wooden inanities in reply. The First Lord must understand that we are thoroughly in earnest about this. We are as proud of the part which the Navy played in our Commonwealth as anybody could be, but we are determined to put into the cause of peace something of the energy which the nation put into the cause of war. I ask the First Lord what is he doing about the American Note?
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Nothing doing!
    Captain BENN: That is the sort of spirit which animates hon. Members opposite. I feel very much—I believe that many people, the men and particularly the women, in this country feel it also—that we in our generation have got a special trust. We were taught in school, and children are taught in school to-day,

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    that war is valour, brilliant victories, new markets and so on. We know that all that is a lie. We know that war means maimings, mutilations, widowhood, starvation.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: I was not taught that at school.
    Captain BENN: The world knows this, and in the world to-day there is a hunger for peace, a universal hunger for peace, and the Government blunder or crime is that they are not responding to that spirit. Seven million people died in the War. Some were called Germans, and others Bulgarians or Britons or Frenchmen or Americans. They all had homes and firesides and vast numbers of them had children. I could not dogmatise and say why they went to war. They went to war for various reasons. Some did not know what the War was about, but others, the best of them, went because they believed that by his sacrifice they would put a better order in the world. That is their testament. We are the executors of that testament. It is a very difficult job indeed, none the less it is a sacred duty, to try to carry out the testament of those brave men and women who made that sacrifice.
    You have to-day to go to those widows, or mothers without children, or children without father, and to say, "It has been a failure. The sacrifice was made in vain. We are back again in 1909." I remember very well the Debates on competitive building, and the question, "What are the Germane doing and what are we doing?" and we are faced to-day with the same inevitable end. When these programmes are produced the people are bewildered and heartsore, but that is not the end. They are also resentful and determined. The Government can put their programme through, and wring the taxation from the industries of this country. They have an enormous majority. They can invent, and manufacture the engines of war, but they may, when the time comes, find that there is no cannon-fodder. They may find that, for all their programmes and all their powers, their policy will be defeated by the common people who will say "No."
    Commander FANSHAWE: I believe that on both sides of the House there is a very large measure of agreement on this subject. We all want a great measure of national economy, and I know that on
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    no side of the House is there any wish to embark on another war. Those statements sound like platitudes, in spite of the emphasis that has been laid on them by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). Most hon. Members on the opposite side of the House who have spoken have entirely omitted the fact that all the ships proposed to be built under this programme are for replacement. They are designed to replace ships which cur experts at the Admiralty have said are no longer fit to fight or to steam or to house their crews or to function in any way. That fact has been lost sight of entirely in what is, perhaps, the slight heat of blaming the Admiralty—blaming the Admiralty for functioning in the only way in which it is their duty to function. I bitterly resent the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party, and the attack which he saw fit to level at our Admirals, who have rendered great service to the country, probably the greatest service. For the right hon. Gentleman to abuse men of that standing is a shame. Such a task should never have been undertaken by any Member of this House, at any rate not by one who has held the highest position under the King in this country.
    Let me turn to the question which we are debating, the replacement of our old ships. The old cruisers were built during the War and were built hurriedly. They are small ships, of about 3,000 tons, lightly armed. When we went into the Washington Conference we struggled hard to prevent the raising of the size of cruisers, but we failed to do so. The conference decided that the cruisers could be up to 10,000 tons, mounting 8-inch guns. In spite of the British effort to reduce the size, that proposal was passed in the first Disarmament Conference that has ever really succeeded—the first, though we hope it may lead to others. Battleships were limited as to numbers, tonnage and guns, and there has been very little discussion about them. It may be that at a future conference battleships can be abolished. Who knows? That is mere prophecy. We must here deal with the question of cruisers. We who have been to sea know that if you have ships anywhere struggling to get into action with an enemy, you cannot send small ships of 3,000 tons in any weather to engage the ship of 10,000 tons with a superior armament.

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    Many hon. Members will remember a name which is very much honoured in the Navy, that of Admiral Cradock. He lost his life in engaging cruisers of the German Navy, even ships with smaller guns, but with more efficient armament and able to fire at longer ranges. The German ships had greater speed, and more efficient weapons. The English admiral lost his life by engaging those ships with inadequate British ships. He would have fought the enemy in an open boat if he could have got at them in no other way. Are hon. Members opposite, contrary to the advice of experts of the Admiralty, going into the Lobby to vote against this programme? [HON. MEMBERS: "We are!"] I am sorry to hear hon. Members say that. The Admiralty say, perfectly rightly—they are the only judges in this technical matter—that these small cruisers are not fit to meet foreign ships, and must be replaced. Surely that advice of the experts must be taken by us? Hon. Members opposite have said that it is the function of Parliament to pass Navy Estimates and to discuss them fully. Of course it is. We are the people to decide that in this House. But do not let us go too far and neglect the whole of our expert advice. Whatever we do, do not let us sneer at our experts.
    I believe that the danger point of the world, as far as we are concerned—by the danger point I mean the danger point to our trade--is probably the Indian Ocean. It is a fine weather ocean, except for about four months of the year, when the south-west monsoon is blowing, and then there is a very heavy sea. These small cruisers of ours cannot steam their full speed and cannot fight in that ocean at such a time. The right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition asked, how is the distribution of these ships to be carried out? Why should not these new ships be distributed in the same way as our present cruiser squadrons are distributed? Where is the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty? He will find that the naval staff at the Admiralty will be far better judges than any of us here as to the distribution of those shins for the guarding of our trade. In regard to numbers, I think that the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) was misinformed.
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    I understand that in 1929 we shall, with this new programme, possess 16 post-War cruisers of 10,000 or 8,000 tons. I presume they will be armed with 8-inch guns. Those are the only ships that we can consider at that time, for the others will be entirely obsolete. The United States will then possess 18 cruisers, the Japanese 21, France 9, and Italy 4.
    Visualise our great Empire, our trade routes, our great coast line, and can you possibly say that we ought to be inferior? Hon. Members opposite always say, rightly, I have no doubt, that they are very much concerned with unemployment, with cheap living, and with all our social problems. How are they going to justify all that talk if they go into the Lobby and deliberately vote against a Measure which will make secure the supplies coming to this country? If they vote against this proposal the whole of their talk is a sham. I plead only, in my turn, for great economy, for the greatest possibly efficiency, and for such sufficiency as will make a proper insurance premium for the prosperity of the Empire, and for the prosperity of this country at the heart of the Empire.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: A number of able and interesting speeches have been delivered in the course of this Debate, but Members on this side of the Committee, at least, will agree with me that no speech got so near to the heart of the problem which we are discussing as the grave utterance of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). The hon. and gallant Member said, much more ably than I could have done, what I had in my mind, and what I might have attempted to say had I spoken before he rose. The First Lord of the Admiralty is, I understand, to follow me in the Debate, and I think it is much more important for the Committee to hear what he has to say in defence of this programme than to listen to any lengthy observations of mine. Apart from the opening speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, which was distinguished by other characteristics, the most extraordinary speech delivered in this Debate was that made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a rather unusual thing for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to intervene in a Navy Debate, but the right hon. Gen-

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    tleman came here this afternoon, as the hon. and gallant Member for Leith so very truthfully said, led in a halter by the First Lord of the Admiralty. I have no doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer, like all his predecessors in office, has put up a persistent fight against the demands of the Admiralty. He has been defeated. There have been precedents where a Chancellor of the Exchequer who declined to meet the demands of the Admiralty, has resigned his position, but the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is not likely to do so. He is not of the resigning sort, and if he ever contemplated such a proceeding in order to embarrass the Government, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer probably remembered Goschen.
    10.0 P.M.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer comes here this afternoon, after his complete defeat by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and he makes a speech in defence of these proposals which, had we not known otherwise, we might have imagined was being delivered by the First Lord of the Admiralty. Indeed, it reminded me of the speeches which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered a dozen years ago when he was First Lord of the Admiralty. He tells us now, after his defeat, that he thinks this is a reasonable programme. Indeed the Chancellor of the Exchequer went so far as to congratulate the Admiralty upon their moderation, and he gave a high testimonial to their desire to promote economy. I wonder if all this is magnanimity on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer is more capable of other things than of magnanimity. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can accommodate himself to circumstances. "If he does gulp down his professions, he is always ready next morning to turn up with fresh ones," and is always quite willing to give reasons for his latest professions. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith quoted a statement made by the Prime Minister that this new naval programme would not involve an increase of Navy expenditure, but would be followed by an actual reduction. That is not the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon. He told us we must not look forward to any reduction in the total of Navy ex-
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    penditure. A statement like that was hardly necessary. Within the next few years, a sum of nearly £60,000,000, according to this Estimate, is to be expended upon naval construction.
    I would like to point out—and I do not think this point has been made in the course of the Debate—that this five years' programme is only part of a programme. We shall not have reached the end of the era of new construction when this programme has been completed, because the whole justification put forward for this building programme is that it is to replace worn-out cruisers, and the life of a cruiser, we are told, is only 15 years. Therefore, at the end of this programme, merely for the purpose of replacement, it will be necessary to continue to build three cruisers, at least, every year. The certain prospect to which we can look forward is not that the Navy Vote will remain at the huge figure at which it stands to-day, or the huge figure at which it will stand five years hence, but we may look forward with certainty to the fact, if this policy be continued, that in six, seven, eight, nine or ten years' time not £10,000,000 but £20,000,000 will be added to the Navy expenditure. The reply of the First Lord probably will be that the Admiralty have given a pledge to carry out certain economies, and that a considerable part, if not the whole of the cost of this building programme, is to be met by economies and reductions in other directions.
    If those reductions can be made, without impairing the efficiency of the Navy, why, then, have they not been made before? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not last year?"] I suppose that is intended as a sneer at the supposed inaction of the Government of which I was a member. If that be so, I will reply. When we came into office, within three weeks of the time when it was necessary to present the Navy Estimates to the House of Commons, I found that the Estimates had been completed and sanctioned by the previous Government. But in that three weeks I managed-to effect a reduction of £6,500,000 in the amount of the Vote which had been sanctioned by the Government which we have just succeeded. This Government, instead of effecting a reduction, of £6,500,000, submitted Navy Estimates which, as they were originally presented to the House at the beginning of this Session, and not including a single penny for new construc-

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    tion, showed an increase of £4,500,000. If these economies can be carried out in order to provide something for new construction, they can be carried out without the money being devoted to the purposes of construction.
    Nobody who has had any experience at all at the Admiralty will place the slightest reliance on the pledges they are giving to effect economy. They are the most arrogant of all the public Departments. The Navy is the only one of our great public Services which arrogates to itself such rights. There is no other Department which has so little regard to the ordinary conventions and amenities of the public Service as the Admiralty. Reference has been made in the course of this Debate to some fresh demands which the Admiralty have made. We all know that the Admiralty are in the closest touch with some of the newspapers. When I was at the Treasury I never had a consultation with the heads of the Admiralty without the fullest report of the private negotiations carried through, however trivial, appearing in some newspaper next morning. The Cabinet knows about this leakage of news from the Admiralty. This question was before the Cabinet in recent years on more than one occasion.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Can you give me instances?
    Mr. SN0WDEN: If the right hon. Gentleman will refer to Cabinet papers of two years ago.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am speaking of my administration.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I am making statements which are known to be true, within the knowledge of every man who has held responsible Government office in recent years. Therefore, little or no importance can be attached to any declaration, pledge or promise which the Admoralty may give to effect a considerable reduction of expenses. I want to say a few words about the proposal from the point of view of national economy. Nearly every speech delivered from the opposite side has defended these proposals. During months of the present Session, especially when the Finance Bill was under discussion, we had innumerable speeches from that side of the House demanding a reduction in
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    the national expenditure. This new building programme, when it fully matures, is going to cost something like £12,000,000 a year. The right hon. Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) is not here. He made a speech a few days ago, and he has made similar speeches on the same subject before, and in that speech, about a week ago, he said the expenditure of £12,000,000 a year, which was going to be imposed under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill, was an intolerable burden upon industry. The burden will be the same on industry, whether the money is devoted to one purpose or the other. We have not had the right hon. Member, and hardly any other hon. Member on that side of the House to-day, who has risen to protest against this expenditure as being an intolerable burden on industry, but there was one very significant incident which happened during the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When he was speaking about the Economy Committee which is to be appointed, he said its investigations would not be confined to the Admiralty and the other fighting Services, but that it would inquire into the expenditure of the Civil Departments. That statement-received the loudest cheers of any statement made in the Chancellor's speech. I see that the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs)—one of the armchair naval exports of this House. Interrupting the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), he said that the restriction and redaction of expenditure on the social Services would have to come before the reduction for national defence. That is the desire and the intention of hon. Members opposite. They will not vote against—
    Commander BELLAIRS: The right hon. Member misquotes me.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: I have not in the least misrepresented the hon. and gallant Member. There is to be considerable expenditure of money for the fighting Services, but I can tell the hon. Members opposite that we are not going to have cruisers as a substitute for social reform. We were promised that there was to be a progressive reduction of £10,000,000 a year in national expenditure. Where is the prospect of that reduction? Instead of the likelihood of a reduction of £10,000,000, we shall almost certainly

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    have an increase in national expenditure of at least that amount.
    It is not merely the certain increase in the expenditure on the Navy, but we are committed to an annual increase in the expenditure upon the Air Service, and it is not sufficiently noted, when we are comparing the expenditure on the Navy to-day with the expenditure of 10 or 12 years ago, that then we had no expenditure upon an Air Service. The expenditure upon the Navy is £60,000,000 this year, or more than the expenditure in the year before the War, and the expenditure on the Navy in the year before the War had been swollen by £20,000,000 in the previous six years by the naval policy of the Liberal party. It is not fair to compare the naval expenditure of to-day with the naval expenditure of the year before the War. A much more correct comparison would be to compare the naval expenditure to-day with that of 1906, but what were the conditions in 1913 compared with the conditions of to-day? Then you had a European menace. Then you had within striking distance of these shores a great naval Power. Then you had no League of Nations. [Laughter.] Yes, it is no unusual thing for hon. Members opposite to sneer at a reference to the League of Nations, or, indeed, to any peace sentiment. The noble utterance of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith when he pleaded that we should act as trustees of the dead, was received with jeers.
    Hon. Members opposite have learned nothing by the War. Nearly every speech which has been delivered from that side this afternoon has been a re-echo of the speeches that were made before the outbreak of War. We are back in 1913. Hon. Members opposite, I repeat, have learned nothing by the War, and in that respect they have proved themselves to be true to the historic traditions of the party to which they belong, which never learns anything. There is no European menace to-day, there is no hostile naval Power in Europe, there is no hostile naval Power anywhere in the world. All the great naval Powers, with the exception of America, are members of the League of Nations. It is no use hiding what is the real cause of the Admiralty's demand for an increase in the strength of the Navy—all this talk about replacement does not disguise the
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    fact that this is an increase in the strength of the Navy—and it is no use disguising that this is justified on the ground of the possibility of war in the Far East. But Japan is a member of the League of Nations.
    One of the wisest things that has been said in the course of the Debate this evening was uttered by a supporter of the Government, an hon. and gallant Gentleman below the Gangway on this side. He said: "There are men of common sense in this country; there are men of common sense in America; there are men of common sense in Japan." Why, then, do not these men of common sense get together and try to devise some plan for putting an end to this wasteful and ruinous expenditure on armaments? Hon. Gentlemen opposite ask what the Labour Government did? We did what has been stated by the Leader of the Opposition and on the grounds put forward. We had only come into office and had not had time fully to discuss the matter. There was three crowded weeks, innumerable questions to consider, decisions to be taken! Do hon. Members think that three weeks was sufficient for a new Government to give adequate consideration to this question? We spent months after that on this question. I think I may say this: I certainly say this for myself—and I think I may venture to say it for my late colleagues in the Government—that if we had had the information when we assented to the building of five new cruisers that we subsequently acquired we should never have taken that step. I am quite sure of this, that had we remained in office there would have been no new building programme this year. Our alternative was the alternative of a disarmament conference, which, on the initiative of my right hon. Friend, had been arranged by the Assembly of the League of Nations to take place during the present year. Even that conference has been abandoned by the present Government. On the ground of economy? On the ground that this country cannot afford this expenditure? We held—
    Commander BELLAIRS: What about France?
    Mr. SNOWDEN: What about France? My reply to that question is that it would beseem her better if she would pay her debts. On these grounds then we oppose

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    this: Because we do not believe it is necessary. We oppose it because we believe it is provocative. We oppose it because we believe there is a better policy. That policy, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, is for men of good will and common sense to get together, and see if they cannot devise some plan by which the nations of the world can be saved from this ruinous expenditure and from this provocative policy, which, if continued, is certain sooner or later to culminate in a still more disastrous war.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The two right hon. Gentleman who began this Debate made what I thought was a rather unfair assault upon my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary because he did not follow the practice of some Front Bench speakers and speak for an hour or so. Because his speech was very short and very lucid, they did not like it. He explained everything that was necessary in about 10 minutes, and I am only sorry the example has not been followed. I will try to do my best to follow it. [Laughter.] I think hon. Members, seeing that I have only 35 minutes, might-give me the benefit of that limit of time. There are several questions which I should like to get out of the way before going any further. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Snowden) referred in very careful and guarded terms to some action taken with regard to the Press by the Admiralty. I asked him to say whether he could name a single instance where anything has been divulged By the Admiralty to the Press during my term of office, and he did not condescend to give any reply to that question.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: How could I know?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Well, then, you had better not make the accusation.
    Mr. SNOWDEN: How can I know? I see information which purports to be a revelation of what has taken place between the Treasury and the Admiralty. How can I know? But I know from my own experience, and I am speaking from my own experience.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: It is very different from mine. This has appeared in every kind of newspaper, and it has been mainly conjecture or largely discussion
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    on matters which everybody knew were in dispute at the moment. If it is to be contended that nobody who agrees with the view of the Admiralty is to defend them in the Press, then I think you are putting a handicap on the Admiralty which you would not attempt to put upon any other Department of the State. I repudiate any suggestion that the Admiralty have made any unfair use of the Press, and unless the right hon. Gentleman can prove it, I shall stick to what I have said.
    The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith (Captain Benn) asked what was the cost of the upkeep of one of the new cruisers. The upkeep of the new "Kent" class is £259,000 a year, but that will replace an old County class cruiser, the upkeep of which was £215,000, so the net increase will be £44,000, unless we can effect any other economies. A great deal has been said about economy. When the Admiralty effects some economy, then they are derided by hon. Members opposite because they have done so. The economies which are suggested in the Supplementary Estimate before the Committee to-day are economies which we have been studying for some considerable time, and I can assure my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and I think he knows it—that the Admiralty have been trying their very best to meet him in the way of providing economies out of various services which they have to maintain. I sympathise very much with his desire to effect economies, and I will do all I can to promote them. I do wish the Committee to understand that I am not prepared to admit that the Admiralty is the most extravagant Department in the State, because when you compare its present expenditure at the value of pre-War money you will find that the Admiralty are spending less now than they were before the War. All I want to point out is that possibly some of the other Departments are not. Therefore while I say I am strongly in favour of economy I am not prepared to admit that ours is the only Department that requires it. I am quite sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not hold that view. [Laughter.] I do not know what there is amusing about that or why hon. Members opposite should treat economy as a joke.

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    There is a subject I want to refer to upon which I feel rather strongly. Attacks have been made upon the Board of Admiralty by several speakers in the course of this Debate including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), whose lectures on economy have not been very convincing, because I have always been taught that example is better than precept. It is suggested that the Board of Admiralty have taken up some attitude which is exceptional and offensive to the civil authority, but I deny that. The. Admiralty is charged with a certain duty, and the responsibility placed upon it is to protect British Possessions abroad against organised invasion from the sea. It is the business of the Admiralty to say what is necessary to carry out that duty.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: And not to resign if they do not get it.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Do not let the hon. and gallant Member talk about resigning without knowing what he is talking about. I take any responsibility upon myself with regard to the policy of the Board of Admiralty. Their duty is to carry out the Government policy, and they have always been willing- to do so, subject to this proviso, that if they are asked to carry out some duties with a less strength than they consider themselves able to do it they have a right to make that statement to the Government of the day, and if the Government says, "We do not require you to carry out that policy," then it is the duty of the Admiralty do carry out whatever policy the Government decide upon. This was very clearly expressed by Sir Geoffrey Hornby some years ago, who said:
    "It is for the politicians to tell me whether they want the Channel defended or not. That is their business. If they tell me I have to defend the Channel, I say. 'In order to do that I shall require so many ships, so many guns, and so many men.' Then they have a right to say, ' That is too much, we cannot afford it, and we will give up the idea of defending the Channel.' That again is their business But they have no right whatever to say, 'You do not require that number of guns or ships or men.' That is not their business and they know nothing about it."
    That is the position which the Board of Admiralty has taken up, and if anybody is to be blamed it must be myself and not the Board, who cannot defend themselves here. The right hon. Gentle-
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    man the Leader of the Opposition asked me at the outset, "What are your reasons for the policy you are now asking the House to adopt?" My answer to him is that my reasons are exactly the same reasons that actuated him and his Government in laying down five cruisers last year. I will quote from their own spokesman on the subject. He said:
    "I wont to emphasise that these cruisers are part replacement of the County class cruisers, which have already been scrapped but were not replaced owing to the urgent need for economy. The consequence is that for the last two or three years the number of cruisers available for the protection at our world-wide trade has been below requirements, which depend primarily on the length of our trade routes and the volume of our sea-borne trade, and only to a limited extent on the numbers possessed by other countries. The time, however, has now arrived when this replacement construction can no longer be delayed, in view of the large number of light cruisers which will, during the next few years, reach an age at which they can no longer be relied upon as efficient units."—[OFFICIAL BEPORT, 18th March, 1924; col. 284, Vol. 171.]
    Those were his reasons, and the reasons of the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last, for laying down the cruisers last year, and those are our reasons to-day. The Leader of the Opposition referred to a speech of his which has been quoted in the Press, in which he is said to have remarked that their programme was five last year and five this. He has explained that, if he ever said it, that was a slip. I am quite prepared, of course, to admit, if he says so, that that must be the case. That does not in any way vitiate the argument which he used on this subject, or which his supporters used, and, therefore, I am perfectly entitled to say that my reasons are the same as theirs—purely reasons of replacement. I should like the Committee to remember that our need, as a country, for cruisers is far greater than that of any other country, because of our widely spread Empire. We have 80,000 miles of trade routes, and between the West Coast of America and the East Coast of Africa it is computed that £890,000,000 worth of merchandise passes every year. It is in order to afford the protection which it is the responsibility of the Admiralty to give to that trade that we ask for this programme of replacement. Our present strength in cruisers is 48—the lowest number since 1889—and three more will

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    be completed this year. None of these is of post-War design, all having been begun before or during the War. Five 10,000-ton cruisers were laid down by the late Government, and two are being laid down this year by the Australian Government, who have come forward most generously to assist in this work of replacement. As everyone knows—Ȕ
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Surely, the Australian two are not replacement?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The Australian two are to help the strength of the Empire, and it is to replace obsolete ships that the British Fleet is now making this effort. Everyone knows that the speed and strength of armament of cruisers are the main factors of success, and we cannot forget the lessons of Coronel and the Falkland Islands. On those occasions the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisenau" beat the "Good Hope" and the "Monmouth" owing to more powerful armaments, and in their turn were beaten by the more powerful armaments of the "Invincible" and "Inflexible" at the Falkland Islands. Therefore we have to take into consideration, not only numbers, but strength of armaments and speed. Without contending that we are in danger of any kind of conflict with any particular country I must give the House a few figures of what other countries have got in the way of cruisers of this kind. If we lay down nothing this year in the way of cruisers the British Empire will have seven of post-War design, the United States will have 18, Japan will have 21, and France, 9.
    Mr. LANSBURY; Our Ally.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am not talking of whether people are allied. All of them are friends fortunately, but after all they keep up their Navy for some reason or other, I presume for the same reason as ourselves—insurance against any risk. Take cruisers armed with 8-inch guns, which is the highest armament allowed for cruisers under the Washington Agreement. The position will be at that date—Ȕ
    Mr. MacDONALD: You did not give us the date.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: April, 1929. British Empire 7, United States 8. Japan
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    8, and France 6. With regard to speed there will be at the same date, if we build nothing this year, with a speed of 30 knots or over, British Empire, 13; United States, 18; Japan, 25; and France, 9. Those figures make a very unfavourable contrast for this country, especially if we consider our necessity in the matter of cruisers as compared with that of any other country. It has been argued in the Debate that there is no risk of war. It is quite true that the horizon at present appears to be perfectly calm, and no one is more thankful for that than I am, but I absolutely deny the capacity of anyone to prophesy, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite did, that the situation is going to be calm for the next 10 or 12 years, and as I have always said ever since I entered the arena of politics, the proper naval policy is one of insurance and not one that regards the risk of war at this moment or that. I still adhere to the policy I have advocated for the last 30 years, and for that reason I am making the proposals I am making to the House. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said we are strong enough with our own Fleet, but we must remember that our Fleet was built mostly for the North Sea and not for oceangoing work. I myself cannot understand anyone using an argument of that kind. I can quite understand a man saying he will not have any Navy at all. That is perfectly intelligible. If you think there is always going to be peace it is a very good reason for doing away with the Navy altogether. I do not think you would carry the country with you.
    What I cannot understand is, people who are prepared to spend a considerable amount of money on the Navy, and yet say you must not have the most up-to-date ships; you must send our men to sea with the almost certainty of destruction in old-fashioned ships. [Interruption.] That is what you are asking us to do by voting against this Estimate to-night. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and other speakers said we were starting a new competition in building. That is really putting the cart before the horse. He himself had said, in last year's Debate, that it was foolish to stop building while discussing disarmament. He made a great point of that, and jeered at a Liberal Member—I believe it was Mr. Pringle. He said, how on earth do you

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    suppose we are going to be in a sound position to discuss disarmament if we leave off building? Why did he not say that to-night?
    Mr. BECKETT: We are not discussing disarmament.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have always said, and the Admiralty have always said, we are perfectly prepared to discuss with the other great maritime nations, disarmament, and would do it to-morrow, provided that the safety of our Empire be not impaired in the process. Hut, really, to say that this programme we are putting up to-day is challenging competition in shipbuilding is to exhibit the most lamentable ignorance of what has been happening in the last few years. Look at what the other countries are doing. I am not complaining; they have a perfect right to do it. They probably do it as we do it, as an insurance policy, which, I think, is the right policy. Let us see what has happened since the War. The British Empire, since the Armistice, has laid down, including the two Australian ships which are to be laid down this year, 7 cruisers, 2 destroyers, and 2 submarines; the United States, 8 cruisers, 76 destroyers, and 30 submarines; Japan, 18 cruisers, 50 destroyers, and 45 submarines; Prance, 5 cruisers, 24 destroyers, and 25 submarines; Italy, 2 cruisers, 22 destroyers, and 13 submarines.
    To sum it all up, out of 329 warships—cruisers, destroyers and submarines—built by the five great maritime nations since the War, our share, instead of being 65, has been 11. What man in his senses is going to get up and say to me, in face of those figures, that we are challenging competition? What I think the figures prove is that each country must be its own judge of what its own insurance policy should be, and we should be the judges of our own.
    There is the question that has been touched upon by one or two speakers, and that is the question of employment in shipbuilding. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite properly, that that certainly should not be the first consideration in deciding whether you build ships or whether you do not. I quite agree with him. But at the moment, when unemployment is very rife and when the Government are looking about for the
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    best way of relieving the situation, even if it is only a temporary relief, the question of building ships cannot be left out of account.
    Mr. LANSBURY: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will kindly tell as how he proposes to save the £130,000 in wages mentioned in the White Paper? We have to consider that.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I should like to be allowed to proceed with my point. I want to deal with the question of employment. Every ship that is built gives employment to trades which at the moment are suffering most from unemployment. Shipbuilding, coalmining, iron and steel mining and smelting, and marine engineering are the four industries which stand almost at the very top of the list in unemployment at the present moment. Shipbuilding expenses go, to the extent of 80 to 85 per cent., in wages direct, and so this £58,000,000 in seven years which has been so much derided is, at any rate, £45,000,000 to £50,000,000, going direct in wages to the industries of this country which are suffering most from unemployment. I do not think any Government could have left that matter out of consideration. There is another thing which differentiates it from other forms of unemployment. In these industries skilled men are leaving the country at the present moment, and therefore I say that if we can find employment for skilled men that will keep them in this country we should do so. From one other aspect I would like to look at it, and that is from the point of view of the unemployment benefit which would be saved. It has been calculated that each cruiser would employ from 3,000 to 3,500 men in its construction for three years. If those men were receiving unemployment benefit during that time they would be drawing something like £500,000 during the course of that period. It is therefore well worth consideration whether we should not make an effort to promote shipbuilding when you can do it by saving something like 25 per cent. of the cost of the shipbuilding bill in that way.
    The only wise course for this country, so long as other countries are arming, is to pursue a steady policy of replacement as ships become obsolete, and to be always ready to consider any general

    575
    proposition for disarmament that is consistent with the security of this country and of the Empire. That is the policy that we are advocating to-night. Hysterical alternations of rapid building and no building are very unsatisfactory, not only to trade but also to the general feeling with regard to peace in the whole world. The hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) boasted that the Liberal party just before the War spent more money on the Navy than anybody else. Why had they to do that? It was because they had neglected it in the preceding years. If the policy which we advocated for years before the War had been pursued they would not have had to spend that money, and possibly the War might have Been avoided.
    Sir A. SINCLAIR: I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that point. Perhaps he will settle it with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: One matter which has been referred to in very eloquent terms by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith is the question of peace. My friends and I do not yield for one moment to anyone in the keenness of our desire for peace. We desire it as much as he desires it, and it is because we desire peace that we are asking for this programme. I may enlist the sympathy of hon. Gentlemen opposite if I quote the words of the hon. Member for Bermondsey:
    "It has been repeatedly proved that the British Navy has always been one of the greatest factors for pence and stability that have ever existed in all the world."
    Dr. SALTER: Which Bermondsey?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not know. The hon. Member is on the Front Bench opposite.
    Dr. SALTER rose—
    HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I did the hon. Gentleman an injustice. It is the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon). I hope it was read all over the world. I agree with him that this policy is the best policy for the protection of our trade and the prestige of our country, and is the best guarantee for the peace of the world.
    Captain GARRO-JONES Captain GARRO-JONES rose!—
    HON. MEMBERS: "Vote!"
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN Mr. BRIDGEMAN rose in his place, and claimed to more, "That the Question be now put."
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The Committee proceeded to a Division.
    Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry Barnston were named as Tellers for the Ayes, hut there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, the DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN declared that the Ayes had it.
    Sir GODFREY COLLINS: On a point of Order. I gave the names of myself and Captain Wedgwood Benn.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: They did not reach me.
    HON. MEMBERS: It is too late now.
    Question put accordingly, "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £50, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided: Ayes 140; Noes, 267.

    Division No. 325.]

    AYES.

    [11.3 p.m.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

    Connolly, M.

    Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Crawfurd, H. E.

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Dalton, Hugh

    Hammersley, S. S

    Ammon, Charles George

    Davies Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Hardie, George D.

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Day, Colonel Harry

    Harris, Percy A.

    Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)

    Dennison, R.

    Hayday, Arthur

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Duncan, C.

    Hayes, John Henry

    Barnes, A.

    Dunnico, H.

    Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)

    Barr, J.

    Fenby, T. D.

    Henderson, T. (Grasgow)

    Batey, Joseph

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Hirst, G. H.

    Beckett, John (Gateshead)

    Forrest, W.

    Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Garro-Jones, Captain G M.

    Hudson, J. H. (Huudersfield)

    Broad, F. A.

    Gibbins, Joseph

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

    Bromley, J.

    Gillett, George M.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Gosling, Harry

    Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

    Cape, Thomas

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark. Hamilton)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Charleton, H. C.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Clowes, S.

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Groves, T.

    Kelly, W. T.

    Kennedy, T.

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)

    Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

    Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.

    Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Kirkwood, D.

    Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)

    Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

    Lansbury, George

    Rose, Frank H.

    Varley, Frank B.

    Lawson, John James

    Saklatvala, Shapurji

    Viant, S. P.

    Lindley, F. W.

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Livingstone, A. M.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen

    Lowth, T.

    Scurr, John

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Lunn, William

    Sexton, James

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)

    Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

    Mackinder, W.

    Shiels, Dr. Drummond

    Welsh, J. C.

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Westwood, J.

    March, S.

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

    Maxton, James

    Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

    Whiteley, W.

    Montague, Frederick

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Wiggins, William Martin

    Morris, R. H.

    Slesser, Sir Henry H.

    Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Smillie, Robert

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Owen, Major G.

    Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Paling, W.

    Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Snell, Harry

    Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

    Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.

    Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

    Windsor, Walter

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

    Wright, W.

    Potts, John S.

    Stamford, T. W.

    Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)

    Purcell, A. A.

    Stephen, Campbell

    Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

    Sutton, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Riley, Ben

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Darby)

    Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Warne.

    Ritson, J.

    Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro- W.)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Harland, A.

    Ainsworth, Major Charles

    Cope, Major William

    Harrison, G. J. C.

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)

    Couper, J. B.

    Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)

    Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)

    Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Haslam, Henry C.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.

    Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)

    Headlam, Lieut. Colonel C. M.

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.

    Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert

    Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry

    Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)

    Atkinson, C.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)

    Henn, sir Sydney H.

    Balniel, Lord

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Hannessy, Major J. R. G.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)

    Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.

    Barnett, Major Sir Richard

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)

    Beamish, Captain T. P. H.

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Hilton, Cecil

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon w.

    Dean, Arthur Wellesley

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Drewe, C.

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Holt, Capt. H. P.

    Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)

    Elliot, Captain Walter E.

    Homan, C. W. J.

    Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

    Elvedon, Viscount

    Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

    Boothby, R. J. G.

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.

    Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

    Fairfax, Captain J. G.

    Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Climb., N.)

    Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Fanshawe, Commander G. D.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Fermoy, Lord

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Briggs, J. Harold

    Fielden, E. B.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Briscoe, Richard George

    Finburgh S.

    Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Fleming, D. P.

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

    Ford, P. J.

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Broun-Lindsay, Major H.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

    Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)

    Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)

    Foster, Sir Harry S.

    Jacob, A. E.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)

    Foxcroft, Captain C. T.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Bullock, Captain M.

    Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.

    Kennedy, A. R.(Preston)

    Burman, J. B.

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)

    Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Kindersley, Major Buy M.

    Butler, Sir Geoffrey

    Gates, Percy

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

    Glyn, Major R. G. C.

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Caine, Gordon Hall

    Goff, Sir Park

    Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

    Campbell, E. T.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Little, Dr. E. Graham

    Cassels, J. D.

    Grant, J. A.

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Cazalet, Captain Victor A.

    Greene, W. P. Crawford

    Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)

    Loder, J. de V.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N (Ladywood)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Looker, Herbert William

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Lord, Walter Greaves

    Christie, J. A.

    Grotrian, H. Brent

    Lougher, L.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer

    Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    MacAndrew, Charles Glen

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Hanbury, C.

    McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus

    578

    579

    McLean, Major A.

    Raine, W.

    Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.

    Macmillan, Captain H.

    Ramsden, E.

    Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Rawson, Alfred Cooper

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Sugden, Sir Wilfred

    MacRobert, Alexander M.

    Remer, J. R.

    Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

    Malone, Major P. B.

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Margesson, Captain D.

    Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

    Merriman, F. B.

    Rice, Sir Frederick

    Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell

    Meyer, Sir Frank

    Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts"y)

    Tinne, J. A.

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

    Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Mitchell, S (Lanark, Lanark)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

    Ropner, Major L.

    Vaughan-Morgan Col. K. P.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.

    Waddington, R.

    Monsell, Eyres, Con Rt Hon. B. M.

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wallace, Captain D. E.

    Moore, Sir Newton J.

    Rye, F. G.

    Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Sandeman, A. Stewart

    Warrender, Sir Victor

    Morden, Col. W. Grant

    Sandon, Lord

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Moreing, Captain A. H.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)

    Morrison H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)

    Watts, Dr. T.

    Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

    Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

    Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

    Murchison, C. K.

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

    Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

    Nelson, Sir Frank

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Neville, R. J.

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Slaney, Major P. Kenyon

    Wise, Sir Fredric

    Nuttall, Ellis

    Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Womersley, W. J.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Smithers, Waldron

    Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon)

    Pennefather, Sir John

    Sprot, Sir Alexander

    Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)

    Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Perring, William George

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Steel, Major Samuel Strang

    Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

    Storry Deans, R.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Preston, William

    Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.

    Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir

    Price, Major C. W. M.

    Strickland, Sir Gerald

    Harry Barnston.

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

    Original Question again proposed.
    Several hon. Members rose—
    It being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceed
    580
    ing, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  NAVY AND AIR EXPENDITURE. 1923–24.
  Resolutions reported.
  "Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1924, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriate for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services over the net expenditure is £3.935.650 5s. 1d., namely: —

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1930, Votes

  Deficits.

  Surpluses.

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, etc., of Officers. Sea-men, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines.

  171,169

  17

  10

  —

  —

  51,759

  3

  1

  2

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy.

  —

  47,549

  3

  8

  636,240

  9

  8

  —

  3

  Medical Services

  —

  —

  59,985

  14

  0

  45,172

  4

  10

  4

  Civilians employed on Fleet Services.

  —

  —

  552

  12

  6

  554

  1

  10

  5

  Educational Services

  —

  —

  16,728

  8

  2

  5,627

  18

  4

  6

  Scientific Services

  —

  —

  47,241

  11

  6

  9,068

  18

  11

  7

  Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Fleet Reserve, and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, etc.

  —

  3,036

  6

  4

  116,445

  2

  2

  —

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

  Sec. 1. Personnel

  109,101

  14

  0

  —

  —

  51,605

  19

  8

  Sec. 2. Matériel

  55,811

  11

  2

  —

  —

  522,675

  15

  4

  Sec. 3. Contract Work

  —

  —

  360,386

  18

  11

  243,189

  2

  9

  9

  Naval Armaments

  —

  —

  970,346

  19

  9

  533,947

  9

  2

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad.

  —

  —

  451,231

  12

  2

  165,852

  11

  2

  11

  Various Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  —

  —

  17,696

  18

  10

  59,729

  13

  3

  12

  Admiralty Office

  —

  —

  31,211

  16

  5

  1,374

  14

  9

  13

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine) Officers.

  41,937

  10

  0

  —

  —

  30,073

  6

  9

  14

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine) Men.

  65,248

  19

  2

  —

  —

  65,803

  14

  8

  15

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities.

  31,361

  3

  2

  —

  —

  221

  12

  1

  —

  Amount written off as irrecoverable.

  33,864

  0

  3

  —

  —

  —

  508,494

  15

  7

  50,585

  10

  0

  2,708,074

  4

  1

  1,786,656

  6

  7

  Total Deficits £559,080

  5

  7

  Total Surpluses £4,494,730

  10

  8

  Net Surplus … £3,935,650 5 1

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  4,494,730

  10

  8

  Total Deficits

  …

  559,080

  5

  7

  Net Surplus

  …

  £3,935,650

  5

  1

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
  1. That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  "Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1924, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net expenditure is £1,505,696 4s. 2d., namely:—

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1930, Votes

  Deficits.

  Surpluses.

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, etc., of the Air Force

  —

  355,985

  1

  7

  524,972

  8

  8

  —

  2

  Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transport.

  —

  274,008

  18

  9

  409,002

  7

  11

  —

  3

  Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services)

  16,367

  19

  10

  —

  —

  876,463

  13

  3

  4

  Works, Buildings, and Lands

  —

  212,734

  6

  0

  820,262

  19

  1

  —

  5

  Air Ministry

  —

  —

  9,892

  11

  2

  1,002

  5

  1

  6

  Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  —

  124

  6

  2

  47,751

  8

  7

  —

  7

  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces

  —

  996

  18

  0

  75,178

  10

  2

  —

  8

  Civil Aviation

  —

  —

  60,426

  16

  10

  4,106

  3

  2

  9

  Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services.

  —

  1,330

  15

  8

  44,125

  8

  9

  —

  —

  Balances Irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

  5,950

  2

  6

  —

  —

  —

  22,318

  2

  4

  845,175

  6

  2

  1,991,612

  11

  2

  381,577

  1

  6

  Total Deficits

  £867,493

  8

  6

  Total Surpluses

  £2,873,189

  12

  8

  Net Surplus … £1,505,696 4 2

  TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

  TITHE [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to tithe rent-charge and other rent-charges, rents, and payments in lieu of tithe, and the

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  2,373,189

  12

  8

  Total Deficits

  …

  867,493

  8

  6

  Net Surplus

  …

  £1,505,696

  4

  2

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.
  2. That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  payment of rates thereon, and for other matters connected therewith, it is expedient that there shall in each year be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund or the growing produce thereof to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue such sum us the Treasury may certify to be payable by those Commissioners under the said Act in respect of rates assessed on Queen Anne's Bounty as the owner of any tithe rent-charge vested in them under the said Act, alter deducting there from amounts not less than the following (that is to say): an amount equal to £5 for every £100 of tithe rent-charge previously attached to benefices which is liable to be rated, and which is for the time being vested in Queen Anne's Bounty, and an amount equal to £16 for every £100 of tithe rent-charge previously attached to ecclesias-

  585
  tical corporations which is so liable and vested."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Mr. FISHER: I desire to offer a few observations to the House on this Money Resolution. I do not propose in any way to contest the necessity for the Tithe Bill, nor do I wish to contest the main principles upon which the Bill is framed. I recognise quite fully that it is desirable that tithe should be stabilised. I rise in order to obtain, if I can, from the Minister some assurance that he will be prepared to consider between now and the Report stage the case that was put to him on Second Reading, and during the Committee stage of the Bill, with reference to the position of the Charitable Corporations under this proposal. I do not propose to enlarge upon the very strong case which the Charitable Corporations—and by these I mean Oxford and Cambridge. Eton College, Christ Church, New College, Magdalen College, and other great institutions—have under the Bill. The main proposal of the Bill is to stabilise tithe at £105. Personally, I am not prepared to accept that figure as a fair figure, but as I realise that the Minister has reached that figure after, no doubt, very difficult and anxious negotiations between the landowners on the one hand and the clergy on the other, I am not suggesting that he should alter the main basis of the Bill. What I do very respectfully suggest to him is that the Charitable Corporations are placed under this proposal in a position of exceptional disadvantage. It is quite true that they are apparently on the same terms as are the clergy, but there is this great difference: the clergy have a very large concession in regard to the rates which is not offered to the Charitable Corporations. If you take the offer to the clergy at £105 the offer to the Charitable Corporations is £71. There is a great difference between the way the two are treated. If the Bill goes through in its present position—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman how he connects his remarks with the Resolution? The discussion on the Resolution can deal only with charges on the Exchequer, not with the merits of the Bill as between the tithe-owner and the tithepayer. These are
  586
  points that can be raised on the Bill. I do not see how they can be connected with this Money Resolution.
  Mr. FISHER: I was merely wishing to explain that I shall be compelled to oppose the Money Resolution, although I am in favour of the Bill, unless I can receive some intimation from the right hon. Gentleman that he will between now and the Report Stage reconsider the case that has been put to him on behalf of the charitable corporations.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I think that must come on the Bill, and not on the Resolution.
  Sir HENRY SLESSER: I rise to call attention to the fact that under this Resolution the House is asked to sanction the expenditure of a very considerable sum of money in connexion with the Tithe Bill, and I emphasise the fact tonight because I do not think that on the earlier stages of the Resolution it was sufficiently brought to the attention of the House that the new charge is estimated to be a sum not exceeding £292,000. I appreciate that it is not in order at this stage to criticise the merits of the Bill, but one of the consequences of the Bill is that the Exchequer will be made liable for about £300,000. I hope when the Bill comes up for further consideration it will be remembered that an integral part of what some of us regard as a very iniquitous scheme for the spoliation of the poor clergy is a charge of £300,000 on the Exchequer. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined Universities (Mr. Fisher) does not quarrel with the Resolution except in so far as it affects the lay tithe owner, but the clerical tithe owner has to be considered too, for if things had been allowed to go on and take the natural course, tithe being unaffected and rating being unaffected, as would have been the case apart from war legislation, there would never have been any necessity for the Minister to come to the House to ask for the money. I regard this payment as a subsidy to the landowners. It is that, really, because the land owners are not going to pay the tithe they ought to pay to the poor incumbents, and therefore it is necessary to subsidise the rates with this sum. Although it is to some extent concealed in the difficult and intricate provisions of

  587
  this Bill, the fact remains that the £300,000 is, in fact, a subsidy to the landowner because he will not pay his tithe at the full rate of £130.
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Edward Wood): I do not know how far under your ruling, Mr. Speaker, it would be within my competence to reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher), but I gather that it would not be in order at all. Perhaps I may, however, be permitted to go so far as to say that I will give such consideration as I am able to the subject which he has raised. With regard to what the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Slesser) has said, I cannot help thinking that he has allowed his judgment to be somewhat distorted by political prejudice. He has spoken about this being a measure for the spoliation of the clergy, but obviously it is not within the rules of Order to discuss the general principles of the Bill. I am surprised, however, to see that he couples with his judgment of the Bill a desire to continue what I can only call the spoliation of the ratepayer, because this Bill relieves the ratepayers of a burden which Parliament cast upon their shoulders in 1920. The purpose of this measure is to preserve the status quo without making the other ratepayers suffer for the relief that Parliament thought fit to give to the tithe owner.
  We are not, however, discussing now the general policy of the Tithe Bill, but we are considering whether it is wise on the part of the Exchequer, to relieve the ratepayers of a burden which Parliament cast upon them in 1920. I content myself by saying that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir H. Slesser) is falling into an error when he suggests that this Resolution gives a subsidy to the owner, and he must not allow himself to be infected by the political judgment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) in this matter. There is no basis for such a contention in this Resolution. It is clearly a straightforward business to transfer a charge of £300,000 from the shoulders of the ratepayers to the Exchequer. And that is, in the general judgment of hon. Members, not an unreasonable thing to do, and it is one which I think will receive universal assent. This Resolution is
  588
  merely designed to preserve the status quo in the matter of rating. This proposal asks the House to give no new relief to the tithe owner, and the only relief is that which is given to the ratepayer who is suffering from a burden which Parliament had no intention of casting upon him
  Mr. BARR: I think the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) who spoke from the Labour Benches and the Minister have made it clear to us that this is the transference of a charge from the ratepayer to the Exchequer. We find that in 1836 when there was a commutation of tithes it was laid down that in future the titheowner and the clergy should pay the poor rates for their district, and that was done on various grounds which J do not enter into now. Notwithstanding that at various times since 1899 relief was given to the titheowner; in 1920, relief in respect of rates was given in full to those under £300, and to those between £300 and £500 it was given to the extent of one-half. The ratepayers were brought in, as the Minister has explained, in order that they might bear this burden and relieve the clergy and other titheowners, and we can understand that that created a good deal of feeling in the country. No small friction and dissatisfaction was created by this putting of a charge on the ratepayer to make up what in 1836, when this arrangement was made, was put upon the clergy and the other titheowners. What the Minister proposes now is that, in order to avoid that local friction, the burden should be transferred to the Exchequer. It is to fall on the public none the less, but they will not be so sensitive, and it will not be so conspicuous: it will not be known that it is being done. It is a great injustice, none the less, that titheowners, who are in receipt of tithe contributed by the land of the whole country, are relieved from what it was clearly understood was to be paid by them, it being first put on the rates, and now, to make it less invidious and less obnoxious, it is being transferred to the Exchequer, where it will be less known. I strongly object to it on that ground. I think that, if a Church is to receive a benefit in this way from the public, the people should feel it and know that they are doing it.

  589
  The other consideration is this, and I think it is not irrelevant. In my view, under this Bill, the clergy who are being relieved by the Exchequer are receiving great and undoubted benefits, and particularly the benefit that, in the course of 85 years, when the sinking fund has operated and redemption has taken place, virtually this money—public money now—will be transferred for the benefit of the clergy and held in trust for the incumbent. Because of that, I am strongly opposed to facilitating the passing of this Measure, even to the extent of this Financial Resolution, which puts a burden on the Exchequer to relieve and aid financially ministers of a particular denomination at the expense of all other denominations and all citizens of the country. Therefore,
  590
  I hope we shall resist and go to a Division upon this Financial Resolution to-night.
  The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, MR. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty Minutes before Twelve o' Clock.

UNEMPLOYMENT.
  MOTOR INDUSTRY.
  MOTOR INDUSTRY.
  RELIEF SCHEMES.
  RELIEF SCHEMES.
  EXTENDED BENEFIT.
  EXTENDED BENEFIT.
  AUSTRALIAN STATES.
  AUSTRALIAN STATES.
  TANGIER (BRITISH SUBJECTS CORRESPONDENCE).
  TANGIER (BRITISH SUBJECTS CORRESPONDENCE).
CHINA.
  ANTI-BRITISH PROPAGANDA.
  ANTI-BRITISH PROPAGANDA.
  BRITISH DELEGATION (LANCASHIRE COTTON TRADE).
  BRITISH DELEGATION (LANCASHIRE COTTON TRADE).
  HUKUANG RAILWAY LOAN (BRITISH SHAREHOLDERS).
  HUKUANG RAILWAY LOAN (BRITISH SHAREHOLDERS).
  BIRMINGHAM POST OFFICE (PART- TIME OFFICERS).
  BIRMINGHAM POST OFFICE (PART- TIME OFFICERS).
  CHAR-A-BANC ACCIDENT, BRISTOL.
  CHAR-A-BANC ACCIDENT, BRISTOL.
  WATER-BORNE TRAFFIC, PORT OF LONDON (HAULAGE).
  WATER-BORNE TRAFFIC, PORT OF LONDON (HAULAGE).
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  MUSEUMS AND ART GALLERIES (LECTURES).
  MUSEUMS AND ART GALLERIES (LECTURES).
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  SALARIES AND EXPENSES.
  SALARIES AND EXPENSES.
  HEALTH INSURANCE.
  HEALTH INSURANCE.
  INDUSTRIAL AREAS (TREE- PLANTING).
  INDUSTRIAL AREAS (TREE- PLANTING).
  PLEASURE BOATS (LIFE-BUOYS).
  PLEASURE BOATS (LIFE-BUOYS).
ROYAL NAVY.
  COASTAL MOTOR-BOAT MANŒUVRES (ENGINE-ROOM ARTIFICERS).
  COASTAL MOTOR-BOAT MANŒUVRES (ENGINE-ROOM ARTIFICERS).
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "VINDICTIVE" (FOREIGN STEEL).
  HIS MAJESTY'S SHIP "VINDICTIVE" (FOREIGN STEEL).
  PRINCETON PRISON (CHAR-A-BANC PARTIES).
  PRINCETON PRISON (CHAR-A-BANC PARTIES).
  BOILER SCALING (ACCIDENT, SHOTTON).
  BOILER SCALING (ACCIDENT, SHOTTON).
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
  IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
  COAL EXPORTS.
  COAL EXPORTS.
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.
  SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.
  COLONIAL RAILWAYS (CONSTRUCTION).
  COLONIAL RAILWAYS (CONSTRUCTION).
  BRITISH ARMY (TUBERCULOSIS).
  BRITISH ARMY (TUBERCULOSIS).
  AIR SERVICES (INTERNATIONAL COMPARISON).
  AIR SERVICES (INTERNATIONAL COMPARISON).
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CLYDEBANK BURGH EXTENSION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES(THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That the order made on the 2nd day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 30th of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill read 2a accordingly.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a and to be printed.

LONDON AND HOME COUNTIES ELEC- TRICITY DISTRICT ORDER.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Viscount Peel, I beg to move the Motion which appears on the Paper agreeing with the Commons in the modifications they have made in the London and Home Counties Electricity District Order. It looks rather more formidable than it really is and perhaps the procedure requires a word of explanation. The Order in question does not take effect until it is approved by both Houses. Your Lordships approved the Order after it had been referred to a Select Committee, with one modification, which is incorporated in the modifications you are now asked to approve. After your Lordships had approved the Order, it came up for approval in the
506
House of Commons, the Motion being made to approve the Order in exactly the same form as passed by your Lordships' House. But in the House of Commons the Motion to approve the Order was amended by further modifications, which the Motion I now move asks your Lordships also to approve.
If this Motion is not carried, the result will be that the Order has been approved by your Lordships' House in one form and by the House of Commons in another form. No Order can take effect until it has been approved by both Houses of Parliament in the same form. The effect of this Motion is to give your Lordships' approval to the Order as modified by the House of Commons, and if it is carried the Order will have been approved by both Houses. The effect of one Amendment which stands in the name of the noble Viscount is simply to change the date. That is the effect of the last Amendment. The other Amendments are concerned with the exclusion of the Watford area from the operation of the Order. All these Amendments have been carefully considered by the Ministry and have been approved by them.
Moved, That this House agrees to the modifications, subject to which the Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, constituting the London and Home Counties Electricity District, and establishing and incorporating the London and Home Counties Joint Electricity Authority, which was presented on the 21st day of May, 1925, has been approved by the House of Commons, and approves the said Order as so modified, viz:—
In Article 7 the deletion of lines lb to 20, inclusive.
In paragraph 1 of the Schedule the deletion of lines 32 and 33, page 20, and the substitution of the words "the municipal borough of Hertford."
The deletion of the word "Bushey" in line 34, page 20, and of the word "Rickmansworth" in line 36, page 20.
The deletion of lines 37 to 43 inclusive, page 20, and the substitution of the words "The rural districts of Barnet, Hatfield, Hertford, St. Albans, Ware, and Welwyn; the detached part (lying between the rural districts of Ware and Epping) of the parish of High Wych, in the rural district of Hadham."
The parish of Flaunden, in the rural district of Hemel Hempstead.

507
So much of the urban district of Rickmansworth and the rural district of Watford as are not included in the authorised area of supply of the Corporation of Watford as constituted at the date of this Order.
In paragraph (3) (a) of Part I of the Second Annex the deletion of the words "Watford…Watford Corporation."
Clause 39, subsection (2), paragraph (b), after the first "district" insert "represented on the Joint Authority."
In paragraphs 2 and 3 of Part II of the First Annex, the deletion of the word "April" wherever it occurs, and the substitution of the word "December"—(Viscount Peel.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I have looked into the modifications inserted by the other House as closely as I am able to do and so far as I can speak with any authority, and it is only for myself, my advice to your Lordships is to accept the alterations made by the Commons. They make very little difference. The one material point is, I think, that which has been alluded to by the noble Viscount—namely, the exclusion of the Watford area. I had rather that it had not been excluded, but it can be put in again at a later stage. The great importance of this scheme is that it sets up an electricity authority for London and the Home Counties. That is an enormous step forward, which will give rise to a good deal of employment and will become operative very soon. I should be very sorry if anything drove us to put back this long delayed scheme. Here it is in a form which at any rate will work very well. I think that your Lordships would do well to accept the Motion of the noble Viscount and to adopt it with the alterations that have been made, which are not really material to its principle.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SANDWICH PORT AND HAVEN BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, the sequence of events which has led up to this Bill is shortly as follows. The port of Richborough was constructed by the War Office during the War. It was more or less within the statutory limits of the Sandwich Haven authorities. The Government, to all intents and purposes, assumed the functions of the Haven authority, although that authority continued to own and operate a smaller
508
wharf further up the Haven. The port was created purely for War purposes and I think that subsequent events entirely justified its construction. A very large amount of war material was sent through this port to the Front and after the Armistice a vast amount of surplus material was imported through Richborough for sale in this country.
Later on, however, the administration of the port became entirely unsatisfactory. The Government had no power to levy dues of any kind and all dues that were levied went to the Sandwich Haven authority. In March, 1921, the Disposals Board sold the port as a going concern to the Port of Queenborough Development Company. This firm made an agreement with the Sandwich Corporation to present a Bill to Parliament providing for a joint board of control and a revision of the schedule of dues, which was already greatly overdue. This Bill, however, came to nothing because the firm in question were unable to implement their contract, with the result that in July, 1923, the Government accepted the rescission of the contract and re-entered into possession. Obviously the state of affairs was then even more unsatisfactory than before. The Government had to expend a considerable amount of money on dredging and on the general expenses of maintenance of the haven and works, bur in spite of that fact all the dues in respect of cargo and vessels went not to the Government but to the Haven authority.
About this time the mineral rights in that part of the country were acquired by the firm of Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long, and it became evident to those who were intimately connected with the situation that the future of the port depended entirely upon the development of industry in that vicinity. Consequently the Government once again opened negotiations with the Sandwich Corporation with a view to promoting a new Bill in Parliament, and at the same time they entered into negotiations with Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long with a view to their leasing or buying the Government interest in Richborough. These negotiations have now materialised. This firm is buying the port on condition that the Government promote and pass a measure similar to the Bill that was before Parliament in 1922. This Bill was to secure, among other things, an equal

509
representation to the purchasers on the joint board of control that was to be set up, and, more important still, it was to secure to them the rights in perpetuity to cross the main Ramsgate-Sandwich road with certain railways on the level. The Bill to which I now ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading is the Bill referred to, and it has the support of the Sandwich Corporation.
It is around the subject of these three level crossings that most of the discussion with regard to this Bill has centred. It is suggested that bridges should be constructed over these crossings forthwith, but I should like to put forward certain points for your Lordships' consideration in respect of this suggestion. In the first place, all these crossings are gated—that is to say, the railways are gated, not the roads—and in the second place, the road traffic on this Ramsgate-Sandwich road is admitted to be on the decrease. Furthermore, this traffic is almost entirely of a pleasure character. There are numbers of charabancs, and the road is connected very intimately with the game of golf. The Government do not think that the interests of the development of industry in that district should be sacrificed lightly for those purposes. Furthermore, each bridge would cost about £18,000 to construct. After having received expert advice on the matter, the Government consider that it would be a great waste of money to spend these large sums at the present moment. They do not consider that the conditions obtaining on this road warrant such a large expenditure of money at the present time.
As a result, I understand, of the representations of the Kent County Council the following provisions have been inserted in the Bill: (1), that no level crossing shall be used for shunting; (2), that one of these crossings is to be used only between the hours of nine o'clock in the evening and nine o'clock in the morning; and (3), if the Kent County Council ever wish to construct bridges over any of these level crossings, Messrs. Pearson. Dorman, Long have undertaken to contribute a sum of £5,000 in respect of each bridge and, further, to give free any land which may be necessary for the construction of embankments and other works in connection with this bridge building.
510
I suggest to your Lordships that this last concession is a very important and considerable one indeed. In addition to that, I think I may say that if the Kent County Council ever wish to undertake this work of bridging it is open to them to apply in the ordinary way for an additional grant towards their expenses from the Road Board. Furthermore, I think it is fair to point out that if this bridging does become necessary it will be entirely due to the industrial development of that district, and, consequently, the rateable value of that district will have gone up considerably and therefore profited the Kent County Council to that extent. I wish to make it perfectly clear that the undertaking of Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long to purchase this property is clearly contingent upon their being granted the privilege of using these crossings.
LORD CARSON: May I ask the noble Earl the terms of the contract?
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I am afraid I cannot inform the noble Lord on the spur of the moment, but I will find out and let him know in the course of the debate. I was pointing out that the undertaking of Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long is contingent, upon their being allowed the use of these level crossings. If this privilege is withdrawn, or if this Bill is not passed I think by January 31 next, the agreement will be rescinded. There is no other prospective purchaser: it is most unlikely that the Government, will find another purchaser, and they will be faced with two alternatives—either of operating the port as a Government or semi-Government concern and probably making a loss, or of breaking up the port, in which case they will probably not get more than a quarter, and certainly not, more than one-third, of the scrap value. I suggest to your Lordships that in these circumstances, both from a financial and a national point of view, it is of the utmost importance that this Bill should be passed as early as possible. Therefore I beg to move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
LORD HARRIS LORD HARRIS had given Notice to more after the Second Reading, That it

511
be an instruction to the Committee to whom the Bill shall be referred, to provide that it shall not be lawful for the Secretary of State or any purchaser from him of any interest in the Rich-borough port and depot to maintain any level crossing over the main road from Ramsgate to Sandwich, and that a bridge shall be substituted for any level crossing which the Committee may regard as a necessary means of communication with the port or depot, and that the whole cost of such bridge and its approaches shall be borne by the purchaser of the above port and depot.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise on behalf of the Kent County Council to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill. I congratulate the noble Earl on the very clear way in which he has delivered his brief, but I can supplement the information which he gave to your Lordships in one or two respects. I am afraid I shall have to ask you to allow me to detain you a little time because there is quite a story connected with this matter, and I am sorry to say that the Kent County Council think that the Government do not make a very good showing over this matter. I imagine that the voice which we have heard to-day is the voice of the Treasury—I rather think that the Treasury are conducting this Bill through Parliament—but the hand is the hand of the War Office, and when the noble Earl said just now that he did not know what the terms of the contract were I can only imagine he has not read the shorthand note of the evidence given in another place, because there it is perfectly clearly stated what are the terms of the contract.
That is to say, the price which the War Office is going to get was handed up to the Chairman, so that the price is known. I know the price perfectly well but—why I do not know—I am not at liberty to mention it. However, that is the fact, and when the noble Earl says there are only two alternatives there is, of course, a third course possible. The War Office could give away a little bit of its pound of flesh to Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long, and then of course Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long would be able to adhere to the terms of their contract and the Government would be able to adhere to the terms of its contract. The difficulty is simply that the War Office is hanging on with, all its might—with its talons—to
512
its pound of flesh and pretend that it is impossible to carry out the contract unless Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long are given these running powers over the level crossing.
I daresay a good many of your Lordships know this locality very well, but for those who do not I may say that whilst the title of the Bill is the Sandwich Port and Haven Bill, as a matter of fact these railway lines are better known in connection with what was called the Port of Richborough—in connection with the old Roman castle, the remains of which can still be seen in the neighbourhood. From a marine point of view, it is hardly distinguishable from Pegwell Bay, where the shrimps come from. I have a very important point to submit to your Lordships. In the course of the debate in another place a question was put to the Minister in charge of the Bill by one of the members for Kent, Major Sir Granville Wheler. He asked—I think the noble Earl in his exposition referred to certain Amendments which were put in—
"May I take it that these Amendments to the clause have been agreed to by the Kent County Council?"
—Mr. Guinness replied:—
"Yes, I understand that is so."
My information is exactly the contrary. I have a letter here from the solicitor to the Kent County Council, in which he says:—
"The Kent County Council have not agreed the Amendments and have never been asked to do so or referred to in the matter, and are entirely opposed to the level crossings."
I am quite sure it is by inadvertence, but the House of Commons has been misinformed, and who can say what would have been the result of the Bill if a correct answer had been given?
I see the Lord Chairman in his place and I wish he would advise your Lordships, if he sees fit to speak presently, what he thinks should be done with a Bill which comes up to your Lordships post hoc if not propter hoc on incorrect information being given to the House of Commons. I hear that a Committee has been formed and is going to sit on Monday. Surely that is rather rushing the Bill through, having regard to the fact that the Kent County Council have not been consulted about these Amendments and are entirely opposed to the

513
level crossings. What harm would be done by deferring the Committee to a later period of the year, giving time for the County Council and the War Office and Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long to come together and see whether they cannot arrange such terms as will enable Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long to get down to the seashore and at the same time enable the public to pass along their main road without interruption?
It is quite true that there are level crossings there now. During the War the brilliant idea—and it was a most brilliant idea—occurred to the War Office of conveying its warlike goods direct without transhipment—from the manufactory almost, I believe—right away by rail to Richborough putting the trucks on to barges, taking them across to the other coast, and I believe in some cases taking them up the waterways of Flanders and France. It was a magnificent scheme, there is no question about it. Richborough Port was a magnificent asset during the War. Now it is practically derelict and I should think the War Office say to themselves: "We are very lucky indeed to get any purchaser." Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long want to do precisely the same as the War Office did during the War. They want to get down to the water, and very naturally. The depot, as it is called, is no use to them unless they can get there. They are exploiting certain coalfields in Kent and everybody must wish that they will be successful. There are rumours that they also contemplate importing iron ores from the Continent and smelting on the spot. I do not know that we can congratulate the neighbourhood if smelting works are set up there. However, that is the rumour that is in the air. If it is successful, and we all hope it will be successful in a business sense, you can conceive the amount of traffic that will go over these level crossings.
I say there were level crossings during the War. The War Office came to the County Council and submitted their scheme and, D.O.R.A. being in existence the County Council, of course, had to say "Yes," and there the level crossings are now. I can prove to your Lordships that it was acknowledged in Committee in another place, on a question by the Chairman, that there will be five level
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crossings. I think the noble Earl admitted that they were gated. From the first of the level crossings of the three which are now there to the third is a mile and a quarter; that is to say, there will be three lots of gates in a mile and a quarter. That is not very convenient for traffic.
My noble friend was instructed to say that the traffic had fallen off. Well, that is not fair. I do not suppose the noble Earl has a room in which to study this thing and it is not fair to put such information in his hands. I have the evidence given in the House of Commons and it is upon this that I expect the noble Earl's information was based. I forgot to tell your Lordships that this is a main road, a. No. 1 road; it is the ordinary coastal road from Dover through Sandwich to Thanet. There is another road inland which goes over a bridge called Pluck's Clutter, and I should think the name is enough to deter anybody from going round that way. The traffic goes by this road. In August, 1912, the number of vehicles per week passing along the road was 8,000; in August, 1913, it was 10,000, and in August, 1922, 8,500. That is all the information I can find which will justify the. Department in informing my noble friend that the traffic is decreasing, I cannot believe, from what I know of the traffic in Kent, and particularly the charabanc traffic, that the traffic has fallen off, but I have no information subsequent to 1922. The drop from 1913 is due to there being 2,000 fewer bicycles.
I am going to move that this Bill be read a second time this day three months unless the noble Marquess thinks that., on the whole, it would be better to defer the appointment of the Select Committee until the autumn. I submit to him that that is the reasonable thing to do, not to press for the Select Committee to be appointed to-day. I am sure if he will consult his moral conscience and not be satisfied with his political conscience, he will see that this is a grave injustice to the ratepayers of Kent. What is the use of the members of this Party to which I have been loyal for a great many years, parading the country and claiming to be the hereditary protectors of the ratepayers, if in a matter like this a Government Department, seeing its chance, does

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the ratepayers down in order that it may retain its pound of flesh? How can we go with any faith to the ratepayers of Kent—and they have been a very loyal body to this Party for a great many years—and say, "We consider that we are justified in imposing this cost upon you." There may be three bridges to build, and it is put in evidence that each of these bridges will cost not less than £18,000, so that something like £40,000 may be thrown upon the shoulders of the ratepayers.
LORD CARSON: £54,000.
LORD HARRIS: But Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long have offered to give £5,000 per bridge; therefore you have to deduct £15,000 from the total cost. That leaves something like £40,000 to be thrown upon the shoulders of the ratepayers because a private company wants to get down to the seashore. What chance would a private company have, if it had not the assistance of the Government, if it came to Parliament for running powers and rights of crossing a main road? None whatever. And, remember, this is a private line; the public have no rights over it whatever. The public rights are being given away to a private company. If a public company came to Parliament and requested the right to cross a main road by level crossing what would the Standing Orders do with regard to that? The Standing Orders are perfectly distinct. They say that Parliament objects to level crossings, and these level crossings only exist because they were necessary in the War, and under the agreement which exists the County Council only consented by licence to these level crossings up to next year. After that they were to be terminable at a year's notice.
On all these grounds, therefore, I submit that Parliament may very fairly take a little more time to consider this matter, and defer the appointment of this Select Committee until the autumn, by which time, I have very little doubt, some influence may have been brought to bear upon the War Office to give up part of the price that Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long have agreed to give them subject to their having these rights. I dare say the noble Earl is right that it is not absolutely essential that the bridges should be build at once. It is perfectly easy of arrange
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ment that the War Office shall return to Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long, if and when they have to build bridges, such part of the price as that firm have to pay a excess of the £5,000, and that will come out of the price the War Office have obtained for the sale.
I would like to tell your Lordships than I am very doubtful whether the Ministry of Transport has ever been consulted on this subject. As I said before, it is the Treasury which is conducting the Bill and the War Office which is the vendor. I have now found the Standing Order for which I was looking just now. It is Standing Order No. 155 of the House of Commons, and it provides that
"No railway whereon carriages are moved by mechanical power shall be authorised to be made across any railway, tramway, tramroad or public carriage road on the level, and no tramway shall be authorised to be made across any railway on the level, unless a Report thereupon from some officer of the Ministry of Transport shall be laid before the Committee on the Bill, and unless the Committee, after considering such Report, and hearing the officer, if the Committee think fit, if they shall disagree with the said Report, shall recommend such level crossing, with the reasons and facts upon which their opinion is founded;"—
I have not seen any reasons or facts quoted—
"and in every clause authorising a level crossing the number of lines of rails authorised to he made at such crossings shall be specified."
I have not seen any specification as regards the number of lines, though I believe, as a matter of fact, there are at least five.
There are one or two other points I desire to mention to your Lordships. I need hardly tell your Lordships that the whole policy of Parliament for years has been to do away with level crossings. That cannot be contested, I am perfectly sure. If such a proposition as is contained in this Bill came from a private enterprise it would be most strongly condemned, and would have no possible chance of obtaining the approval of Parliament. This is really a Private Bill. It was part of the terms of the contract that the Government should conduct it through Parliament; in other words, the vendors who are interested are to conduct this Bill through Parliament. It is a very funny story, my Lords. The view that the County Council take of this matter—and

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I can assure your Lordships they are most indignant—is that by this Bill the Government are asking Parliament to sanction something which their own responsible Minister would strenuously oppose if it were promoted by anybody else.
On May 21 of this year the Minister of Transport, in a speech in another place, made use of the following words:—
"It is a sound policy to build by-pass roads around many of our towns. That policy is being pursued. If there is one thing more than another which annoys me when I can get into the country, it is the level crossings. Level crossings are out of date and ought never to have been allowed."
Do you not think that after the Minister has given expression to such an opinion as that I am justified in inferring that the Minister of Transport has never been consulted about this Bill? I am informed that large sums of money are now being provided by the Ministry of Transport for the purpose of doing away with existing level crossings.
Those, I think, are the facts of the ease and I desire now to say something about procedure. I told your Lordships that I proposed to divide the House in regard to the Second Reading of the Bill. I have been in communication with the executive of the County Council. They are so indignant that they have asked me to do that and I shall do it. If, as I assume they will be, the Government are successful in carrying this point and the Bill is read a second time—although, I hope, I shall at least find a Teller—I shall, as I am informed is the proper procedure, immediately move the instruction to the Select Committee, of which I have given Notice, to take care that the cost of these bridges, if and when they are constructed, shall not be thrown upon the ratepayers. It will not be necessary for me to inflict a second speech upon your Lordships because I have dealt fully with every point. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time this clay three months.
Amendment moved—
Leave out ("now") and at the end of the Motion insert ("this day three months").—(Lord Harris.)
LORD CARSON: My Lords, I only intervene in this debate because I happen to be a ratepayer in Kent and I very often use this road. Indeed, I know this place probably as well as anybody in recent
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years because this was one of the ports which was constructed and used, when I was First Lord of the Admiralty, for the ferry across to France. Accommodation was erected there for some 18,000 men, and now it is a pitiably derelict concern. So far as I am concerned, I should be very glad to see the matter disposed of and the liability or the Government for any upkeep there may be—though I do not observe any as I pass along there from day to day; but I suppose there is somebody there or thereabouts—got rid of and the Government cut their losses. In my opinion the whole thing was constructed on the most elaborate and ridiculously expensive permanent basis at a time when it was thought that to throw away as much as possible of the money of the taxpayers of this country showed extreme patriotism. For Messrs. Pearson, Dorman and Long who bought these quarries—I know the situation perfectly well—it is absolutely essential to try to get possession of part of this place which will then be a private port. I think they will find it a very expensive one, having regard to the amount of dredging I was acquainted with when I was First Lord; but at the same time it will enable them to do exactly what we did during the War with munitions, guns and all sorts of things of the kind—to find an easy means of transport of coal across to France and up the rivers and elsewhere.
But this is the main road from Ramsgate to Sandwich. It is none too wide; indeed, in my opinion, it is very much too narrow for the traffic. The whole traffic to Sandwich, and all along the road from Sandwich and from the direction of Ramsgate and through Richborough, goes along this road and nothing astonished me more than the statement of the noble Earl that the traffic on this road was diminishing. You come down to a toll bridge as you enter Sandwich, and I have seen long queues of cars and vehicles held up there. In passing by Richborough at many places I have also seen cars held up. I have never counted the number of cars or chars-a-bancs or other vehicles that use this road. What I am stating is what I have learnt merely from personal observation.
If Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long are successful, just imagine what it will be going across a road of that kind from a

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colliery by level crossings. I do not believe the traffic will be maintainable in those circumstances. You may as well block up the road altogether. It is quite true, as my noble friend has said, that there were level crossings there during the War. The whole place was at that time cut off as being a military area. I remember myself, when I was First Lord of the Admiralty, being refused admittance because I had not a pass when I went down to visit the port for some reasons connected with the Admiralty. The whole area was cut off and there was practically no traffic because no one could get through without a pass. Now, however, the position is entirely different. Why should not there be bridges made? That is the modern way of providing crossings over public highways.
My noble friend exactly hit the point when he said that the result of what has happened is that you want to get more money for the War Office at the expense of the Kent ratepayers. That is what it really comes to. The Government say "Let us carry out this. If we lose this opportunity we may not be able to sell. We will carry it out at a price which will enable the bridges to be built and put the obligation upon somebody to build them." But why should you say: "We must carry this out, we must exact our price, and we will put in a provision—Messrs. Pearson, Dorman, Long are willing it should be put in—that at any time the Kent County Council think that they do not like level crossings going over this important road they can at their own expense, at the cost of £18,000 per bridge, put up the necessary structures"? Is that fair to the ratepayers? Is that in accordance with the practice of this House? I should be sorry to do anything that would prevent Pearson, Dorman, Long getting their contract to carry this out, because I believe it is a good opportunity to do so, and I think the proposition that my noble friend has made is a perfectly fair one.
Give a little more time for negotiations in the matter. See what you can do with Pearson, Dorman, Long. See what you can do by negotiations as to price and by give and take to get the necessary bridges built, but do not, in the hurry of trying to dispose of a
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surplus asset of the War, attempt to inflict what will really be a great hardship upon the inhabitants, the County Council and the ratepayers of Kent. I have no interest in this matter except that I am an inhabitant of the district. Terms ought surely to be possible in a case of this kind. That the matter is looked upon by the Government as one of extreme importance is shown by the fact that they themselves have put in certain conditions regarding the level crossings being allowed to be built at the expense of the Kent County Council hereafter. There appears to be a controversy as to whether the Kent County Council was ever consulted at all. It appears to have been stated to the House of Commons that they had agreed to it. If anybody ought to know about that I think it is my noble friend Lord Harris, than whom Kent has no greater champion. He does more public work for his County than any man I know, and his opinion ought to have some weight. This Bill ought not to be carried by the arbitrary authority of a Conservative Government, which always surmounts every difficulty by its majority. It ought to see whether a business-like arrangement cannot be made, and the feelings of the people of Kent should be ascertained upon this matter.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I can assure my noble friends that I do not approach this subject in any spirit of hostility to them, or to the cause which they represent. I fully endorse everything which my noble friend Lord Harris has said, both as to his great service to us, and his loyalty to his County and to everything which, politically, I hold dear. My noble friends could have had no more welcome champion in your Lordships' House in respect of this Bill or in respect of the Party which sits around me, and I shall show before I sit down that these are not merely words, but that I intend to act upon them.
Let me, first, deprecate a certain feeling, perhaps a natural feeling, of hostility which my noble friend displayed towards the War Office. Surely the War Office are not to be found fault with in this matter. He himself bore witness to the great service which this port conferred upon the country during the War and spoke in the

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highest terms of those who had established it, and by that means carried on warlike operations and communications for warlike operations which reflected the highest credit upon them. That was done during the War and, as my noble friend who has just sat down truly said, money was poured out like water at that time. But the War Office, no doubt, want, if they can, to recover a little of that money, It will be a very small quantity that they will recover, but they are not to be blamed for trying to recover as much as they can. It is, after all, in the interests of all of us that they should do that so far as they can do it consistently with what is fair to the Kent County Council. Therefore we ought not to find fault with them, and ought not to hold them up as grasping individuals who are trying to exact their pound of flesh from an unfortunate county council. All they are trying to do is to recover a little money for the British taxpayer where they can. In trying to present the matter in that spirit let me say one other word of caution. My noble friend has assumed that the other relevant Departments of the Government have dot been consulted. I have made inquiries, and, as far as the information which was furnished to me goes, that appears to be quite a delusion. The Ministry of Transport were consulted.
LORD HARRIS: May I ask whether the Minister of Transport is now disposed to change his views with regard to level crossings?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: That I do not know. I only know that the Ministry of Transport proposed certain Amendments, and those Amendments were inserted in the Bill. Therefore everything has been done in that respect perfectly regularly. But my noble friends say that the Government were misinformed, that the House of Commons was misinformed, as to the views of the Kent County Council and their agreement—
LORD HARRIS: I want to be quite clear about that. It is in a letter from the solicitor to the Kent County Council. It is on the authority of that official.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not question it at all. My noble friend speaks with great authority. There may have been some misunderstanding, and
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that is a strong reason why your Lordships should in this matter proceed with the greatest caution. I fully admit that. But that is not a reason for rejecting the Second Reading of the Bill. That clearly is a wrong remedy. The Bill is a large measure. It does not deal only with level crossings over these main roads. It deals with other things; it establishes a new body of commissioners and disposes of the harbour and docks, and to reject it on Second Reading because there is something wrong with regard to two or three level crossings would be an unwise proceeding. The noble Lord really does not want to reject the Second Reading of the Bill at all, although he has moved it. What he wants is to have a change in the terms under which the Bill is to be carried out and I would most respectfully submit to him that it is not a proper way in which to proceed. If he wants to amend the Bill let him amend it at the proper stage and not try to throw it out on Second Reading when he does not object to it.
What we had hoped was that my noble friends would have agreed in the ordinary course that this Bill should be sent to a Committee upstairs. It is a Hybrid Bill and it must go before a Private Bill Committee. My noble friends say that all these things are wrong, that level crossings should be abolished, that bridges ought to be built, and that the cost of building these bridges—several thousands of pounds—should not be thrown on the Kent County Council. Are we to discuss all these matters on the floor of the House? Is that a reasonable proceeding? Is it a regular proceeding? Is it ordinarily done? Of course not. Those are obviously matters for the Private Bill Committee to which the Bill goes in the ordinary way. My noble friend Lord Harris quoted something that happened before the Private Bill Committee of the House of Commons. We have, of course, profound respect for the Private Bill Committee of the House of Commons, but we do not rely upon that Committee. We rely upon our own Committee and that is why we send Bills upstairs, in order that these particular points can be discussed and determined, and for no other reason whatever.
My noble friends say that all this is very bad and that the Kent County Council is being very badly treated. If

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so, I should be the first man to desire to do them justice, but surely it is not reasonable to throw out the Bill on Second Reading, or bind the hands of the Committee before they have had time to consider the matter at all. I suggest that that is not a reasonable attitude on the part of my noble friend. Let the Bill go before the Private Bill Committee—that is the right course. Then my noble friend says: Let us have a little postponement. I should be very sorry to appear to have even the appearance of doing an injustice to the case put forward by my noble friends. If they insist on a postponement until the autumn, in order to show how anxious I am to meet them, I shall not resist it. The reason I say that is this. It is quite true that the Government are a party in this matter, they are one of the parties to the issue, and certainly to use, or try to use—I cannot pretend to do more —the majority of your Lordships' House in order to justify the Government in what is a Private Bill matter, without general consent, would be to attempt a thing which I should dislike very much to do.
I should not like, in a matter which should be decided purely on grounds of justice, to ask your Lordships, merely because you support the Government, to pass this Bill through. If my noble friends say they would like to have time and a postponement until the autumn, I shall not oppose them. But let me just put this consideration before them. The Government are anxious to get on with these works because of their importance.
LORD CARSON: What works?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I understand that a good deal of employment will be immediately involved if this is carried through. My noble friends will not expect me to have personal knowledge of this matter, but that is my information. The thing is to push on, and the Government want to push on, in order to give general employment. We are anxious to do that if we can and we would like to get the Bill pushed through. There is no question of sacrificing the contract. If your Lordships pass it in the autumn the contract will be perfectly sound, but we want to push on with the work. I was going to suggest that we should postpone any decision on this matter until to-morrow, in order that I might confer with my noble friends on
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the question of the postponement until the autumn. It was not until my noble friend spoke just now that I had any idea there was to be a suggestion of a postponement of the Committee. It has come upon me rather as a complete surprise and I have not had time to consider whether this is really a wise course of procedure.
My counsel to your Lordships, therefore, is this. If my noble friends insist, the Government will consent to postpone the Committee until the autumn, but if they will take a suggestion from me we should postpone this debate now as soon as we have agreed to the Second Beading and, between now and to-morrow, I shall he able to consult with them as to whether a postponement until the autumn is really a reasonable suggestion. I think that is a generous offer. It is because of the peculiar position of the Government in respect to this matter, and because of my great regard for my noble friends behind me, that I venture to submit it to your Lordships.
VISCOUNT HALDAN: My Lords, I find the argument of the noble Marquess really unconvincing on the main point. It is all very well to pass this Bill, but if it goes to the Select Committee without an instruction then the Select Committee, if it acts like other Select Committees, will say: "You have dropped this question, and we are not going to insist on something which might be fatal to the prospects of the Bill." That raises really a question of principle. It is proposed to sell this port to the purchaser without any stipulation as to these three level crossings. Is it right, in the times in which we live, to leave railways with level crossings not protected?
I listened to the speech of the noble Earl who introduced the Bill and I observed that he did not propose that these crossings should be guarded by any signalmen. If he had he would have been open to the comment that it was about as cheap to build bridges as to maintain signalmen. But it is not proposed to do that. It is said: We will see that they are opened only at certain hours, and it does not matter very much because the only persons concerned are golfers and pleasure seekers. I am not a golfer, and I am not much of a pleasure seeker, but at the same time I have a certain human

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regard for these people and I do not want to see golfers and pleasure seekers run over, as they might be at these level crossings. They will be all the more liable to be run over because there are gates which will cause delay, trains will come along and there will be the usual accidents that are inevitable in those circumstances.
The noble Marquess asks us to give the Bill a Second Reading and then agree to a certain delay. I think that this is a reasonable proposal if it is a substantial one, but my interpretation of it as a substantial proposal is that the noble Marquess has listened to all that the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Carson, have said and is prepared to say that there may be negotiations and bargaining as to how this matter can be decided. It is all very well to say that the War Office only want to get this money back. No doubt they do and that is very reasonable, but the War Office might have to abate something of its price if it is going to hand over these railways in a proper condition from the public point of view. If the noble Marquess means that this matter is to be the subject of a genuine negotiation with the Government, having regard to the principle that a railway should not be made with level crossings unprotected and that it is better that there should be some kind of bridges—I find it difficult to believe that these bridges will cost £18,000 a piece, as was suggested by the noble Earl—I for one am quite ready individually to assent to the course proposed to be taken—namely, that we should read this Bill a second time now on the understanding that the Committee is postponed, that this debate is adjourned and that the noble Marquess opposite means what one would gather that he meant, that things are to be taken up in a substantial way and that negotiation is to be entered into whereby, by abatement of the price if necessary, or in some other way, these level crossings are to be secured. I notice that the noble Marquess does not assent to that. In that case I for one, speaking in the public interest, do not like this proposition.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I should like, if I may, to say a few words on this Bill in view of my official connection with this neighbourhood. May I say, first of all, that I think the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is under some slight misconcep-
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tion. I think I heard him say that his idea was that this House was likely to adjourn on Tuesday next and that there would not be time for this Committee to consider the matter properly on Monday. That is not what I believe to be the intention of His Majesty's Government. I understand that this House will sit until the end of next week and therefore this Committee, if it is set up on Monday, will have plenty of time to go into this matter fully.
I confess, as one who lives in the neighbourhood, that I am quite unable to agree with the noble Earl who moved the Second Reading of the Bill that the traffic along this road is in any way decreasing. I am quite sure that the direct contrary is more likely to prove true, especially if a new census is taken this year. All over Kent the amount of traffic, especially charabanc traffic, is growing to immense proportions. Each charabanc carries something like fifty people and their numbers are increasing yearly. Even if it were the fact that the actual number of charabancs is not growing very largely, the number of people carried is undoubtedly increasing by leaps and bounds. Although I hold this view, and should immensely regret the continuance of these level crossings, I agree with the noble Marquess the Leader of the House that it is before a Committee of your Lordships' House that matters of this kind are most usefully dealt with and that we cannot deal with them upon the floor of the House. The Private Bill Committee was set up in order that your Lordships' House might be relieved of matters of this kind. Accordingly I venture to hope that the matter will be allowed to go before that tribunal, and I am quite sure that justice will be done to it by that body.
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, if I understand the proposal of the noble Marquess aright, it is not that we should adjourn the debate, as the noble and learned Viscount opposite suggested. The noble Marquess offered, as I understand the matter, that, subject to this Bill being allowed to pass its Second Reading, no Committee would be appointed. In that case, what will happen in the autumn? Will there be a distinct Motion to appoint a Committee? The Lord Chairman of Committees advises me that on a Private Bill there is no formal Motion

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to appoint a Select Committee, but the; Bill goes automatically to the Committee. I should like to know whether, when consideration of this matter is resumed in the autumn, there will be a clear Motion to appoint a Select Committee, allowing us to bring the matter up again publicly so that we may know whether any agreement has been arrived at between the Ministry and the parties concerned. If that is the offer of the noble Marquess, then, speaking on behalf of the Kent County Council, I accept it.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know whether your Lordships will allow me to answer the questions that have been addressed to me, for I have already exhausted my right to speak in this debate. I think the noble Lord has rightly interpreted my offer to him. If the House will be good enough to agree to the Second Reading, I will take care that the Committee stage is not taken until the autumn. My noble friend has said that there is some difficulty as to procedure. I think that there will be no such difficulty if he will leave his Motion for this instruction on the Paper. That must come before your Lordships again on the floor of the House, and the Committee cannot be set up until it is disposed of. I earnestly hope that, when the time comes, my noble friend will not insist upon his instruction, but of course I do not expect him to give any undertaking in that regard now. I think that the matter ought to be left open to the Committee to decide as it thinks best, but, as far as procedure is concerned, that is the simple way. Accordingly I hope that your Lordships will consent to the Second Reading of this Bill.
Loan HARRIS: With your Lordships' approval, I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read 2a.

LEICESTER FIRE BRIGADE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
SALFORD PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
LAND DRAINAGE (OUSE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Amendments proposed by the Committee made.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULA- TION OF REPORTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Darling.)
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, before this Motion is put there are two or three matters which I should like to mention to your Lordships with a view, if possible, to secure procedure by which the Bill may have a fair chance of being considered in another place during this Session of Parliament. There are differences of principle between the

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Amendments which have been put down and the Bill as it stands, but as I ventured to say to your Lordships when the Second Reading was moved, I do not believe there is any difference of opinion anywhere as to the desirability of doing something to check the publication of matters tending to immorality. On that basis I have considered some proposals which I have put down on the Order Paper and which it seemed to me, in the form in which I put them down and having regard to the conflict which arose between the proposers of the Bill and myself, may be more fit for consideration by a Select Committee than by a Committee of the Whole House. But I have had some consultation with my noble and learned friend Lord Darling and many of those who support the Bill and, if I may take up your Lordships' time, I would like to lay before your Lordships what I understand to be the questions between the promoters of the Bill and myself, with a view to seeing whether we could not proceed in Committee to arrive at some agreed settlement about the matters between us.
If I have your Lordships' leave, I would state as concisely as possible the view which I take of the Bill regarding it as a whole and upon the question whether it can properly, be considered by a Committee of the Whole House. It is a short Bill, and the Amendments are not very lengthy. Now with regard to Clause 1, subsection (1) (a), I think there is substantial agreement between the promoters of the Bill and its critics, speaking generally. I do not know of any difference in principle. The comment made upon Clause 1, subsection (1) (a), is that it states in a concise form part of the Common Law with regard to indecent publications, and does not help very much. Subsection (1) (b) (i), (ii), (iii), and (iv) deals with matters which are permitted to be published. The view I took and upon which I prepared an amendment was that if people were minded to break the law they should be reminded of what the law is and then you should take care they do not break it, or break it at their peril, but I have found among friends of mine of great experience in these matters a prevalent view that it is desirable that the extravagant and prolix publication of reports of some classes of judicial proceedings should be dealt with.
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I have grave doubts about the principle myself, but I desire, so far as I can, to meet the views of those, many of them certainly with as long and some of them with longer experience than my own, to whom I have referred on these matters and who do take the view that subsection (1) (b) will be a useful subsection. It will certainly prevent such publications as one saw during the week-end, when a page, or a large part of two pages, of a London weekly paper was devoted to the unwholesome details of one cause in the Divorce Court. I know that the Bill is aimed at that kind of publication. Taking that view, unless there is some objection stronger than my own, what I would suggest to the noble and learned Lord who is in charge of the Bill is this: that paragraph (ii) of subsection (1) (b) really opens a door to a peril which he has not, perhaps, quite apprehended. It implied by sanctions the publication of the grounds on which the proceedings in question are brought and resisted, as set forth in the petition and answer and particulars.
It is quite true that is qualified by the proviso, but the proviso again and the enactments in paragraph (ii) are so at variance that my impression is that excuses will be found for publication if the Bill passes in its present form, which, although they may avoid prosecution under the proviso, will have a very unwholesome effect. The petition, answer and particulars referred to here are, in a great number of cases, wholly unfit for publication. They contain sometimes matters absolutely revolting, which are never specifically mentioned in Court, and without enlarging upon that matter I would suggest to my learned friend whether, if what he intends to do is to combine conciseness with decency, it would not be better to frame paragraph (ii) in some such terms as these:
"A concise statement of the grounds on which the proceedings are brought and resisted."
and to omit that reference to papers in Court, the mention of which, I think, would lead to difficulty and danger. As to paragraphs (iii) and (iv) I will only say that I see no objection to (iii) and as to (iv), as the publications there are subject immediately to the proviso, I think that would be reasonably safe. If it be the common sense of your Lordships that subsection (1) (b) will be useful

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in the Bill, subject to any other Amendments which are made, I certainly should not desire to divide the House upon the question of omitting it and, I tell any noble and learned friend that at once.
Then we pass on to subsection (2). I have raised there a question which is undoubtedly a question of principle. I propose to move to omit the words "on summary conviction" and to substitute a different type of tribunal. One of the perils of setting up a tribunal for examination of matters such as are in question here is that you may introduce new centres from which contamination will proceed in bad cases, and having that very strongly in view I desired to bring to your Lordships' notice that there is a tribunal which could deal with the matter—namely, a Judge of the High Court, who would deal with it summarily, who would come to his conclusion upon it. I propose that that conclusion, if it were a conclusion in favour of conviction, should be subject to review in the Court of Criminal Appeal. I have heard from various quarters that there is likely to be serious opposition to the introduction of a new tribunal to deal with a new criminal offence and that the consideration of the Bill is likely to be regarded with less hostility if the existing tribunals are resorted to. There is an Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp, which proposes that this Bill should apply to reports of proceedinge before the tribunal which dealt with charges under it. If that Amendment were adopted I see no objection at all to sending the cases under the Bill to some court of summary jurisdiction. Most of these cases will arise in London, no doubt; the place of publication, or at least the seat of publication, of most of the newspapers would be in London. It would be easy to deal with it in London.
If you adopt the final clause in the Amendment of which I have given Notice and provide that no prosecution shall be commenced without the fiat of the Attorney-General, which I think is a necessary and wholesome precaution in any view of the matter, then I do not see any difficulty in limiting these prosecutions either to courts in London or to courts where there is a stipendiary magistrate. I confess that if the prosecution could be limited in that way, instead of cases being liable to spring up
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sporadically as centres of mischief in all parts of the country, I should regard the proposal with much more favour, and I should see much less objection to resorting to a court of summary jurisdiction. Rather than divide the House on the matter, although my view was different, I should fall in with the view of my noble and learned friend.
There is one other matter and that is the substantive proposal which is contained in my proposed new subsection (3), whereby the Court which deals with immoral publications of the kind in question, if it should find that there have been within a limited period repeated publications of the same kind in the same newspaper or periodical, should be at liberty, for a period to be determined by the Court and not exceeding six months, to suspend the publication of the newspaper or periodical. I regard that proposal as really crucial in this Bill. That will be a real deterrent against laxity and licence in the matters which the promoters of the Bill have in view. To that proposal I attach importance. Upon that proposal if my noble and learned friend is ready to concur we can be agreed, but if not I should desire there, as it is quite outside the matters generally in question between the supporters of the Bill and myself, to know what the sense of the House is. I am much obliged to the House for the indulgence it has shown me, but I thought it would be convenient if I outlined the position as between my noble friends and myself with a view, if possible, to saving prolonged discussion.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I venture to think that the public who are interested in preserving something like decency in the reporting of these offending cases will welcome, as I do, the speech which my noble friend has just delivered. As I understand, he assents to the first clause of the Bill altogether, down to the beginning of paragraph (ii) of subsection (b).
LORD MERRIVALE: Yes, subject to one or two suggestions about detail. There is an Amendment of the Lord Chancellor which ought to be considered and an Amendment of the noble Earl opposite which I think ought to be considered.
Loan DARLING: Yes, and they naturally will be. But as I understand, down to the end of paragraph (i) my noble and learned friend assents to the Bill in the form in which it stands, subject to the Amendments to be proposed by the Lord Chancellor and the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp. Nothing could be more satisfactory to those who desire this Bill to pass than that. Now we come to paragraph (ii), which says that the papers may be allowed to publish the grounds upon which the proceedings are brought and resisted as set forth in the petition and answer and particulars thereof. My noble and learned friend would not allow the newspapers to do that and I may thank him for this. This Bill was not drawn by me; it was the result of a Select Committee It has very influential backing from all Parties in the other House. and with regard to this all I can say is that, whereas those promoters and supporters of the Bill would chastise the offenders with whips, my noble and learned friend the President of the Divorce Court would chastise them, I think very properly, with scorpions. And therefore it is not likely that I shall resist him, if he moves to omit paragraph (ii).
With regard to the rest, my noble friend assents to paragraph (iii), so there, can be no difference of opinion between him and myself on that. He assents also to paragraph (iv). We therefore do rot differ about that. With regard to pars graph (ii) he would substitute a proposal that the newspapers may publish a concise statement of the grounds upon which the petition is drawn. If he can put that into words I will accept it at once. I imagine he will do so before this Committee stage closes. It seems to me there can be no difficulty about it because paragraph (iv), to which he assents, allows the newspapers to publish the summing up of the Judge and the finding of the jury, if there be a jury and they find anything. They may also publish the judgment of the Court and observations made by the Judge in giving judgment. My noble and learned friend assents to that, and that, of course, would cover the ground which would be in the concise statement which he proposes the newspapers are to publish. So that it seems to me there is very little difference between us.
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Your Lordships all know that a most offensive case has been before Mr. Justice Hill in the Divorce Court within the last few days. To-day there is his judgment in the case. There was no jury but there is his judgment, and I read it, not for pleasure but because of this debate, to see what kind of thing the newspapers would be likely to publish under this paragraph (iv). If any of your Lordships read the judgment you will see that, although it deals with most offensive subjects, it deals with them as a Judge would be certain to deal with them, in a perfectly proper and decent way. Therefore, taking even so extreme an instance as this peculiarly offensive case it seems to me there would be no danger in allowing paragraph (iv) to stand as it appears in the Bill and as my noble and learned friend thinks it should stand.
Now all this is to allow the newspapers to publish a great deal more than they are allowed to publish in most Continental countries. Long ago a statesman wrote in a celebrated Despatch: "With equal advantage the French are content." We know what the French do. They allow Practically nothing to be published, not more than we publish in a case where a bankrupt is examined, beyond just the official notification. We do not set before ourselves in this Bill so high an ideal of purity as exists in Paris. We are content with a little less advantage than the French in this matter, and so our newspapers may congratulate themselves that they have more liberty than is allowed in these matters to their confrères who write in Paris or other parts of France.
In regard to the rest my noble and learned friend would substitute certain provisions for those which are in the Bill. I must insist upon this. This Bill passed a Select Committee of the House of Commons. It bears the names of Mr. Clynes, Sir John Simon, Mr. Thomas and Sir Leslie Scott, men of various Parties who have made themselves responsible for the introduction of this Bill. What they put into the Bill is that when a prosecution is taken it should be brought before the justices. I much prefer that, as they did. My noble and learned friend suggests that the cases should come before a Judge in Chambers. My objection to that is this. What goes on in Chambers is in camera. The only people there are the clerks of the attorneys who are interested in the cases that are to come

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on. They are a very noisy body of persons, and very often when I sat in Chambers I excluded a great many of them. The other people there are not the public but people interested in the case under consideration or other cases.
It appears to me that it would be far better to allow these cases to come on before the justices as most criminal eases do now. Judges in Chambers do not deal with criminal cases. This proposal of my noble and learned friend is revolutionary and I think would shock the noble and learned Viscount opposite. It is that a Judge in Chambers may pass sentence upon a person who may then be taken away without any public inquiry and put into prison. If he is sentenced before the magistrates it happens in public. The noble Earl opposite has an Amendment on the Paper which would perhaps safeguard those proceedings from being turned into a means of gratifying obscene persons, with which your Lordships will deal as you please. But the case will come before the magistrates in public and if the person accused is convicted there is an appeal to Quarter Sessions—to the assembly of all the justices in Quarter Sessions. That is what commended itself to those who drew this Bill; it would, I think, be far preferable to the kind of exceptional tribunal which my noble and learned friend would set up. I know what it would be called the moment it was set up. People who have a false notion that the Star Chamber was what it was not, a very infamous tribunal, would say "This is the Star Chamber." My noble and learned friend would be held up to all the condemnation which has fallen on those who were responsible for the Star Chamber in the latter days of its existence, and I want to save him from that. Therefore I shall have to differ from my noble and learned friend in regard to that matter.
Then he proposes that part of the sentence should be the suspension of the newspaper which offends in this way. I shall be content to leave that to those who judge the matter. If the paper had offended before and was in the habit of offending in this particular, those who decided the ease might well be allowed to suspend it for a time from its harmful activities. My only difficulty is to know exactly how my noble and learned friend
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and I are to arrive at the result upon which we are agreed. The Bill must go into Committee. I take it that my noble friend desires that it shall go into Committee. In Committee he could propose the few Amendments which would bring him, the supporters of the Bill and myself into harmony. Therefore, I welcome what he says.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA(THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I am sorry the House did not go into Committee half an hour ago. I think your Lordships have been somewhat harshly treated. What has taken place illustrates the extreme inconvenience of discussing in detail almost every Amendment which is upon the Paper at the moment when we should discuss, as we shall have still to discuss, all those Amendments in Committee. The inconvenience of the course is, perhaps, best illustrated by the fact that the noble and learned Lord who spoke last spent about five minutes of his speech in objecting to the proposal that these matters should be dealt with by a Judge in Chambers. My noble and learned friend Lord Merrivale had previously and privately informed me that he intended to withdraw this Amendment. If only your Lordships had been allowed to proceed with the ordinary Committee stage of the Bill no discussion of this kind would have been necessary. I hope that your Lordships will now go into Committee.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
(The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.)
Clause 1:
Restriction on publication of reports of judicial proceedings.
1.—(1) It shall not be lawful to print, circulate or publish, or cause or procure to be printed, circulated or published—

(a) in relation to any judicial proceedings any indecent matter or medical, surgical or physiological details being matter or details the publication of which would be calculated to injure public morals or otherwise be to the public mischief;

(b) in relation to any judicial proceedings for dissolution of marriage, for nullity of marriage, or for judicial separation or proceedings before a court of summary

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jurisdiction in which an order for judicial separation is made or applied for, any particulars other than the following, that is to say:—

(i) the names, addresses and description of the parties and witnesses;

(ii) the grounds on which the proceedings are brought And resisted as set forth in the petition and answer and particulars thereof;

(iii) submissions on any point of law arising in the course of the proceedings, and the decision of the court thereon;

(iv) the summing-up of the judge and the finding of the jury (if any) and the judgment of the court and observations made by the judge in giving judgment:

Provided that nothing in this part of this subsection shall be held to permit the publication of anything contrary to the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection.
(2) If any person acts in contravention of the provisions of this Act he shall in respect of each offence be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
(3) Nothing in this section shall apply to the publishing of any notice or report in pursuance of the directions of the court; or to the publishing of any matter in any separate volume or part of any bona fide series of law reports which does not form part of any other publication and consists solely of reports of proceedings in courts of law, or in any publication of a technical character bona fide intended for circulation among members of the legal or medical professions.
LORD SANDHURST LORD SANDHURST had Amendments on the Paper to move, in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), after "proceedings," to insert "(i)" and after "mischief," to insert "or (ii) any portrait or pictorial representation of any party to or witness in such proceedings." The noble Lord said: Since putting down these Amendments I have ascertained that there is a clause in a Government Bill in another place which deals with photography, and therefore I do not propose to move my Amendments.
LORD MERRIVALE LORD MERRIVALE had an Amendment on the Paper to omit all words in subsection (1) after paragraph (a). The noble and learned Lord said: I will not move this Amendment, in order that a little later I may move an Amendment
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which my noble friend Lord Darling is ready to accept to Clause 1, subsection (1), paragraph (ii).
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Will the noble and learned Lord tell me exactly where it occurs?
LORD MERRIVALE: It occurs in paragraph (ii), at the beginning of line 24, and would read "a concise statement of."
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The Lord Chancellor has art Amendment in line 17, which comes first.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR(VISCOUNT CAVE)THE LORD CHANCELLOR(VISCOUNT CAVE) moved to leave out of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) the words "or proceedings before a court of summary jurisdiction in which an order for judicial separation is made or applied for." The noble and learned Viscount said: This Amendment will somewhat lighten the Bill. The effect of paragraph (b) is that in respect of certain proceedings, which I will describe as matrimonial proceedings, only certain particulars shall be published. No doubt the reason for that proposal is that that kind of proceeding can hardly ever take place without involving some matter unfit for publication. But that does not apply to proceedings before justices for a separation. I do not know what your Lordships experience is, but I hardly remember a case where a summons for separation before magistrates has been succeeded by publication of a substantial amount of improper matter. In most cases no matrimonial offence in the ordinary sense of that word is involved. It is usually a question of assault or cruelty or something of that kind, and it seems to me to be absurd to forbid the publication of details in cases of that kind. In these proceedings there is no such thing as a petition and answer and particulars, such as is referred to in paragraph (ii) of (b), nor is there any summing-up by the Judge or any finding of the jury, so that really these words do not fit into the rest of the clause. I think it would be wise to leave them out and confine the paragraph to real matrimonial proceedings. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, leave out from ("separation") to ("any") in line 19.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD DARLING: So far as I am concerned, I accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP moved, in paragraph (b), after "made or applied for," to insert "or any proceedings taken under this Act." The noble Earl said: I put down this Amendment to meet criticisms made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Merrivale, on the Second Reading, which seemed to me so cogent as to require some Amendment of the Bill. I hope that this Amendment will meet with his approval and also with that of the noble and learned Lord in charge of the Bill. Your Lordships will see that it is designed to prevent proceedings taken under this Bill from being, as it were, a fresh source of infection.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, after ("for") insert ("or any proceedings taken under this Act").— (Earl Beauchamp.)
LORD SUMNER: May I point out that although the object of this Amendment is one with which I am sure we shall all sympathise the wording hardly achieves the object that is desired, for reasons very similar to those which the learned Lord Chancellor has just given regarding his Amendment. If the Amendment is adopted the paragraph would read:—
"in relation to any judicial proceedings for dissolution of marriage for nullity of marriage, or for judicial separation or proceedings before a court of summary jurisdiction in which an order for judicial separation is made or applied for or any proceedings taken under this Act."
That, in effect, prevents a newspaper from publishing in its account of the proceedings taken against it the argument that it should be let off leniently and the grounds upon which the magistrate decided that it was a case for leniency and a number of other things of that kind.
Moreover, the expressions which are referred to in paragraphs (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) obviously refer to the proceedings in a Divorce Court because they refer to the Judge and possibly to the jury, and if nothing of those things can be published after the proceedings the newspaper, by the terms of the clause, is prohibited from publishing a report of the proceedings in which it is subsequently a party. I can appreciate that the noble Earl
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wishes to prevent them from, first of all, publishing a highly salacious paragraph offending against the principle of this Bill and then printing a full report of proceedings taken against them for having published such a paragraph and reprinting that salacious paragraph and saying: "That is what we were fined for." I am quite desirous to see that what the noble Earl wishes should be made effective, but may I suggest that he should reconsider the words?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: If the noble and learned Lord would communicate with me privately I will put down a proviso in order to see that his point is met.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it may be more convenient if the noble Earl would take the other course and not press the Amendment to-day, but consider the form of it before the Report Stage. I do see great difficulty in the words which he proposes. Whatever else may be inserted they do not fit in with the clause as drawn and there is also the fact, which has been strongly brought before me, that a newspaper which is prosecuted, which is subjected to criminal proceedings on an allegation of indecency, is very reluctant to be forbidden to state its defence fully so as to bring it before its readers. That is a matter which ought to be considered, although I quite agree with what has been said by my noble and learned friend that something ought to be done to prevent a re-publication of improper matter. Whether the proviso at the end of this paragraph will be enough for that purpose is no doubt a matter to be considered, but I rather hope the noble Earl will withdraw his Amendment to-day and consider the form of it before Report.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Certainly, if that is more convenient I will do so.
LORD DANESFORT: May I suggest to the noble Earl that there will be consider-able difficulty in drawing a clause which will achieve the result that we all desire—namely, that reports of proceedings under the Bill should not contain indecent matter? May I suggest for the noble Earl's consideration before he draws his new clause whether the evil which we anticipate and desire to prevent might not already be met by Clause 1, subsection

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(1) (a), which prohibits in relation to any judicial proceedings any indecent matter whatever? If the Bill is passed in that form might it not really meet the object that we have in view?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MERRIVALE: I would if I may move in line 24, subsection (1) (b) (ii), to insert these words, "a concise statement of" the grounds on which the proceedings are brought and resisted.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 24, after ("(ii)"), insert ("a concise statement of").—(Lord Merrivale.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 25, leave out the words after ("resisted") to the end of line 26.—(Lord Merrivale.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MERRIVALE LORD MERRIVALE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "on summary conviction." The noble and learned Lord said: I have stated already my personal view about this matter, and I move it formally now in order that the view of the House might appear.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 14, leave out ("on summary conviction").—(Lord Merrivale.)
LORD DARLING: I ask your Lordships' pardon for what I did. When my noble and learned friend mentioned this in the course of his introductory remarks I said that I disagreed, and considered that the words "on summary conviction" should remain. I need say no more now.
TETE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope these words will be retained. There may be many offences under this Bill of quite a trifling character in which the judgment and decision of a stipendiary magistrate in London, or magistrates in other large cities, will be all that is required. If a person accused of an offence desires to appeal he has an appeal to Quarter Sessions. On the whole I think it is a beneficial proposal that summary proceedings should be possible.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD MERRIVALE LORD MERRIVALE moved, after subsection (2), to insert as a new subsection:
"(3) Where a person is convicted of an offence under this Act in respect of a publication made in any newspaper or periodical,
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and there have previously been two or more convictions of offences under this Act in respect of publications in the same newspaper or periodical within a period of two years, the Court may in addition to any other penalty under this Act order that the publication of the newspaper or periodical be suspended for such time, not exceeding six months, as the Court thinks fit, provided that before any such order is made such notice shall be given to the proprietor, publisher and printer of the newspaper or periodical as the Court may direct."
The noble and learned Lord said: I do not propose to move the first subsection of which I have given Notice in my Amendment, that is, that "a prosecution under this Act shall be conducted on summons before a Judge of the High Court in Chambers in manner provided by Rules of Court to be made for the purpose under this Act." I am moving the second paragraph of my Amendment, with the substitution of the word "Court" for the word "Judge" in each place where the word "Judge" occurs. This alts ration is necessary on a previous decision. I do not desire to take up much time in advocating this Amendment. It seems that if any fine is to be effective against wealthy offenders in a matter of an outrage upon public decency, it must touch their pockets much more seriously than the fine mentioned in the Bill. This will be really a drastic Act, which is likely, I think, if it is resorted to, to put an end to a good deal of the looseness which has existed in respect of this matter. I cannot think that there is any hardship, if the proprietors of a newspaper twice in two years have been convicted of offences against public decency, that there should be an interval before they are allowed the opportunity of repeating the offence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 17, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Merrivale.)
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I do not wish to object to the new subsection, but it seems to me rather a big order altogether to suspend the circulation of a newspaper.
LORD MEBRIVALE: Whose fault will that be?
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: It may have been an accidental offence. It seems to me rather a strong order.
LORD SUMNER: There is another aspect of the matter which must occur to many of your Lordships. Supposing this absolutely new power of punishment were entrusted to magistrates, does anyone think that this Bill has the least chance of making any progress in another place? We hear a good deal about the power of the Press. I have nothing to say about it, except that every newspaper in the Kingdom will mobilise all its forces against a Bill which proposes to entrust stipendiary magistrates with a power, under any circumstances, of suspending the publication of the newspaper for a period not exceeding six months. I do not propose to discuss whether it is a meritorious penalty or not. We do not live in an ideal world, and the penalties which we have hitherto known in the criminal law show a marked tendency to become more lenient and more limited in their scope rather than more extended. There is no parallel to this that I know of, and although I have no knowledge of the feelings of another place, as I have never witnessed any exhibitions except like a peri at the gates of Paradise—from the Peers' Gallery in the House of Commons—it passes my imagination what will happen as soon as a proposal like this is seriously introduced there. I feel confident, although I am sure my noble and learned friend will entirely disagree with me, that only ill wishers of the Bill would really insert a clause like this new subsection.
LORD DARLING: I will leave the matter entirely to the judgment of the House.
LORD MERRIVALE: The noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, drew a pathetic picture of the plight of the owner of a paper who might be ruined by the suspension of his right to publish. If he has proved himself unfit to publish a newspaper by repeated gross offences against public decency I do not myself think he is a subject for commiseration. Then my noble and learned friend is apprehensive as to what will happen in another place on this proposal. Those who support the principle of this Bill, if they really intend it to be operative, must in my judgment face the imposition of real penalties. Those who have been the
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authors of the Bill and its supporters in another place will, I think, desire to find some means by which the power to continue publication of a newspaper shall be fettered in the case of those who have shown themselves unfit to have that power. Whether the form of the Amendment is the correct form I am not at all sure. It was for that reason that I reserved the right of appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal and for the same reason that I originally proposed that a Judge of the High Court should deal with these matters. One may be suspected of a desire to wreck the Bill, but I desire, if Parliament passes the Bill, that it shall be an operative Bill and do something to remove a public nuisance and peril.
LORD OLIVIER: When the Amendment which has been moved by the noble and learned Lord appeared on the Paper it seemed to me to be of such a staggering character that I really did not think your Lordships would give it serious consideration, largely on the grounds indicated by Lord Sumner. It is an unprecedented thing to say that a stipendiary magistrate should be able to arrest the circulation of The Times or the Daily Telegraph, or any one of our huge machines of publication, simply on the grounds of a repeated offence against decency, but, even if this power were acceptable, you are admitting an extremely dangerous principle, because the publication of indecent matter is not at all the only mischievous public act which a newspaper might commit. A stipendiary magistrate might, on a third conviction for indecency, suspend the paper, and we are thus brought face to face with the question of the administrative right to suspend a newspaper when it has offended on the third occasion against the Government in power or has committed some other action which is commonly regarded, or may be regarded, as contrary to public interests. This is a condition of things which we should tolerate in this country only in a state of war or in circumstances of grave emergency. It is not the kind of offence or evil which is covered in my opinion by the mere offensive and disgusting action of publishing details which a stipendiary magistrate justly, or otherwise, whether prejudiced or not, might consider indecent. It seems to me, there-

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fore, as Lord Sumner has indicated, to be such a far-reaching proposal that it is not likely for a moment that the other House would consider it.
LORD CARSON: I should like to associate myself with that which my noble friend Lord Sumner has said. I think that this Amendment will greatly jeopardise the passage of this Bill, which I myself would very much like to see passed. After all, we are entering upon a somewhat new line of legislation as regards the right of the public to know what goes on in the Law Courts and, while I entirely agree with the principle of the Bill, I think we ought to be very careful to go by steps. Indeed, I do not believe for a moment that we should have the least chance of passing this Amendment in another place. We must go by steps in trying to carry out that which the promoters of the Bill have in view. Already considerable penalties are enacted in this Bill. Offenders are liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
If you want magistrates to convict and do not want them to get nervous about the newspapers, it would be wiser to leave the Bill as it stands. It will be urged upon the magistrate each time that he must decide the very difficult consideration as to what is—
"… in relation to any judicial proceedings any indecent matter or medical, surgical or physiological details … the publication of which would be calculated to injure public morals…"
That is a very large subject to leave to the magistrates. If it is found, after this novel legislation has been working for a while, that the penalties here proposed are not a sufficient deterrent—though I do not anticipate that this will happen—it will then be time enough to come to the Legislature and ask them to strengthen the hands of the Ministry. I am perfectly sure that if you are going to carry with you the newspaper world—you may sneer at it as you like, but it is not unimportant—and the public generally when you adopt a new line of legislation such as this, it is far better to go by degrees than to make such drastic alterations as will turn against you a great deal of the newspaper world and very many of the public who would like to see a Bill of this kind passed.
EARL BUXTON: Speaking as a layman, I venture to agree entirely with the remarks of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Sumner and Lord Carson. We are all anxious that this Bill should pass, and I do not anticipate, having been a member of the House of Commons for more years than I care to remember, that, if we put in this very drastic Amendment, we shall be able to save the Bill. As has been said, the Press will be mobilised against it. I think it will be well worth while to accept the Bill as it stands rather than insist upon this Amendment. I would point out to the noble and learned Lord who moved the Amendment that, although the great newspapers with large circulations, as the noble and learned Lord said, may not regard the fine provided in subsection (2) as a sufficient inducement to carry out the Act, there is also a liability of imprisonment for the person responsible, who will be the editor, and, surely, this penalty will be imposed in the event of a newspaper breaking the law on more than two or three occasions. I venture to put it very strongly to my noble and learned friend opposite that he would really be risking the passage of this Bill if he insisted upon this Amendment. The Bill would be lost, and I am sure that this House and, I think, the other House is very anxious that the Bill should be passed in its present form.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Government are not, of course, responsible for this Bill, but I venture to add my views to those of the noble Earl, and to say that my noble and learned friend would take a course favourable to the. Bill if he withdrew this Amendment at this stage. After all, it is rather a strong thing to ask Parliament to authorise a magistrate to suspend a newspaper for a period not exceeding six months. If it were proposed to give this power to a Judge of the High Court, it might be a different matter, but to give it to a court of summary jurisdiction is a thing to which I, for one, cannot assent. I may add that I believe that the representatives of the best newspapers in this country share with this House the desire to put an end to certain practices which obtain to-day, not I think to any great extent but to some extent, and to purify the Press, and I want to keep their collaboration. I know that

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they intend to consult together with regard to this Bill, and to see whether they can make any suggestion which will improve it or make it more suitable for the approval of Parliament, and I am glad to think that we shall have, at all events their advice, and possibly their co-operation. That being so, I think force is added to the view of my noble friend Lord Sumner and other speakers that it is better not to insist on putting a provision of this kind into the Bill.
LORD MERRIVALE: This proposal was part of a series of proposals, one of which was that this drastic power should be in the hands of Judges of the High Court with resort to the Court of Criminal Appeal, but, after that which has been said by noble Lords on both sides of the House, I do not wish to press this proposal any further, and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MERRIVALE LORD MERRIVALE moved, after subsection (2), to insert the following new subsection:—
"(3) No prosecution for an offence under this Act shall be commenced by any person without the sanction of the Attorney-General."
The noble and learned Lord said: I think that this Amendment is very desirable to prevent prosecutions being commenced at the instance of irresponsible persons all over the country, and to ensure that, when they are commenced, they shall be properly conducted.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 17, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Merrivale.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.

ALLOTMENTS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Limit of expenditure on provision of allotments.
4. Notwithstanding the provisions of Section sixteen of the Act of 1922 the council of any borough or urban district may take proceedings under the provisions of the Allotments Acts relating to allotments if, in the opinion of the council, the
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expenses referred to in such section may reasonably be expected, after the proceedings are taken, to exceed the receipts of the council under those provisions by no greater amount than would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved to leave out Clause 4. The noble Lord said: My Lords, on the Committee Stage I moved this Amendment, but in deference to Earl Beauchamp I withdrew it in order to move it again on the Report stage. The effect of this clause is to allow a council to make provision with regard to allotments if in their opinion the expenses of the council would not exceed the receipts by a greater amount than one penny in the pound. I believe that if this clause is allowed to remain in the Bill the result would be that in certain cases, if not in many cases, the council will say: "We can spend a penny rate. Therefore we and prepared to take allotments and let them at uneconomic rents, because we can make up the difference between expenses and receipts by a rate of a penny in the pound." I believe there will be considerable pressure put upon the councils by allotment holders to avail themselves of this provision.
Now Section 16 of the Act of 1922, which it is proposed to repeal, says this:—
"A council shall not take any proceedings under the provisions of the Allotments Acts relating to allotments, unless in the opinion of the council the expenses of the council incurred under those provisions (other than such expenses as are hereinafter specified) may reasonably be expected, after the proceedings are taken, to be defrayed out of the receipts of the council under those provisions."
Therefore, there is under this clause an opportunity for the council to take allotments if they think that it is reasonable to expect that the proceeds will meet the expenses. Lord Clinton looked into the clause on Committee Stage and said that if under this clause the borough councils made a loss they could then put it on the rates. That is quite true and because of that I think we should omit Clause 4. This Section 16 is sufficient to give opportunities to the council to take a little risk in the matter.
I have no objection to their saying: "We had better take this land because there is a reasonable probability of our being able to let it in allotments," and if that happens to fail, if the idea was reasonable then they can put it on the

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rates, but if you are going specifically to say they may make a charge of a penny on the rates, then I believe it will lead to pressure on the part of the holders of allotments to obtain their allotments at under cost price, putting the difference upon the rates. I do not know whether I have made the matter clear, but I think in these days, when we are spending money everywhere, in my opinion in quite unwarranted fashion, we ought not to encourage any proceedings which may result in a loss to the ratepayers. I therefore beg to move the omission of Clause 4.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, lines 23 to 31, leave out Clause 4.—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD BLEDISLOE): My Lords, I am bound to say I am a little surprised at my noble friend Lord Banbury deeming it worth while to move the omission of this clause, after the most convincing arguments which were used by Lord Clinton in opposition to any such course. I am not prepared to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, and I most profoundly hope your Lordships will not approve of it. I may remind your Lordships that, after all, the House of Commons have a very special duty vested in them of safeguarding the public purse, and it is a significant fact that, although there are plenty of potential critics in another place of such a clause as this if it is likely to operate to the disadvantage of the taxpayer or ratepayer, there was no criticism of this provision and it passed unamended. Lord Clinton pointed out, and I cannot do better than repeat his arguments, that in fact this clause is not only an enabling clause but, so far as the local authorities are concerned, it is at the same time a disabling clause. Under the law as set out in Section 16 of the Act of 1922 it was open to the local authority to prepare an allotments scheme, including negotiations for the acquisition of land suitable for allotments, and to estimate beforehand what was likely to be the expense to the ratepayers of the locality, and if by chance they miscalculated, and the expenditure, in fact exceeded receipts by a sum far in excess of a penny rate, such rate would have to be levied.
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This clause limits the potential expenditure out of the rates in any locality to a penny in the pound, not a very generous provision in these days, when, as we all know, a penny rate in most localities is not capable of providing a very large capital sum. In any case I would suggest to the noble Lord, and certainly to your Lordships, that this is not the time of day to interfere materially with the autonomy of the local authorities. I have greater respect for democracy than my noble friend, but in any case, surely, if there is pressure put by a group of allotment holders upon the local authority, and the result is that an expensive scheme is embarked upon, there are plenty of other ratepayers who are going to express their disapproval, and the local authority who are merely representing the ratepayers will take care that the minority ratepayers are not going to put the locality to unnecessary expense. At any rate, I do suggest that this is a matter about which the local authorities feel strongly, and the local authorities can perfectly well be trusted to administer allotments according to the views of those who elect them.
But I should like to anticipate, if your Lordships will allow me, the further Amendment of my noble friend, who desires to omit Clause 5, as well as Clause 4. Clause 5 invites local authorities to exercise an intelligent foresight in acquiring in populous neighbourhoods suitable land to meet their further requirements in the matter of allotments. It is in respect very particularly of such anticipated requirements that Clause 4 is most likely to be put into operation; in other words, where you have got a developing city, with land appreciating in value as time goes on, it is obviously in the best interests of the ratepayers themselves, as well as of the allotment holders, that the local authorities should anticipate future allotment requirements, and, before land appreciates too much in value, obtain it at a reasonable figure. It is bearing very specially in mind that new power for which the local authorities have asked, and which it is proposed to vest in them by Clause 5, that I ask you very favourably to consider the advantages of this particular clause where, within the limits of a penny rate, the local authorities may be able to acquire land for future allotment purposes which they might not be able to acquire if they did not possess this power.

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The noble Lord reminded me, when I referred to Swindon the other day, that he is a near neighbour of the people of Swindon. Swindon is the great example in this country of the advantages of foresight on the part of a municipal authority in the provision of allotments. These Swindon allotment holders to-day are obtaining, on land which has very greatly appreciated in value, allotments at a particularly low rent because of the prevision of the local authority in anticipating allotment requirements and some years ago obtaining land at a reasonable figure. I hope that your Lordships will not approve of this Amendment, especially in view of the fact that it might operate as a set-back to the development of allotments at a time when allotments are proving to be of very great value, when there is serious unemployment prevalent in the country. After all, there are many men to-day who are not receiving out-door relief because they can fall back on an allotment to provide them very largely with the means of subsistence.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I should like to point out to my noble friend that I think he is mistaken when he says that the effect of this clause will be to limit the amount paid by the council to a penny rate, because the words are—
"the expenses referred to in such section may reasonably be expected, after the proceedings are taken, to exceed the receipts of the council under those provisions by no greater amount than would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound."
Presuming that the council find that it is necessary to raise a twopenny rate, all they would say is: "Well, we reasonably expected that the rate would not be more than a penny, but, though we took every reasonable precaution, we were wrong, and therefore we imposed a rate of twopence to meet the expense." My own opinion is that the section, the provisions of which it is proposed to alter, quite meets the case put by my noble friend, and I certainly will not withdraw. I hope the House will omit the clause.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I do not move the next Amendment standing in my name to omit Clause 5.

INDIAN MEDICAL SERVICES.
LORD SYDENHAM LORD SYDENHAM had given Notice to ask the Secretary of State for India whether measures are in contemplation adequately to fulfil the medical requirements of the Indian Army, British residents, official and non-official, and the civil hospitals, and to secure the progress of medical science in all its branches throughout India; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Earl for giving me this opportunity of raising this important question before the Recess. We have conferred immense benefits upon the peoples of India by the introduction of Western medicine and surgery. This most important part of our duty to the peoples of India may be said to have begun when Lord William Bentinck opened the Calcutta Medical College in 1835, but since then it has been vastly developed, and the Indian Medical Service grow in time to be one of the finest, perhaps even the finest public medical service ever created.
It has produced men who have won world-wide reputation, not only for research into the causes, the spread, and the prevention of diseases which afflict India, but also for the great work which they have done in educating the Indian students. And, while this service has always maintained a very high standard of health in the Indian Army, to which it specially ministers, its achievements on the civil side have been most remarkable in the interests of the Indian people. The hospital system which we introduced into India has been spread broadcast over that country, and has been imitated in many Native States. In my time it was receiving constant additions, and every effort was being made to bring Western medical science as closely as possible to the masses of India. I think that every Viceroy and every Governor did all in his power to assist those efforts, but all the work which had to be done was mainly due to the Indian Medical Service, which is in the strictest sense a key service, because it not only conserves the health of all the other British Services, but it supplies the directive force in all that may be called sanitation in India.
The Indian Medical Service is crumbling away, and it has been necessary lately

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to send out medical officers on short contract, which is totally unsuitable to the conditions of India. It is essential that the medical officers of India should know the people, and know their languages, and should regard India as providing them with a career. This makeshift system cannot possibly answer. In recent years there have boon a great many inquiries into medical matters in India. The Royal Commission on the Public Services of 1912–15 in what was necessarily a belated Report, published, I think, in 1917, stated that the Indian Civil Medical Service was being economically and efficiently performed, which was undoubtedly true at that time. Then came the Verney Lovett Report of 1919, and that proposed a unified service to be called the Indian Medical Corps, the Indian Medical Service absorbing the R.A.M.C., and special provision being made for the civil duties. The Esher Committee of 1919–20 declared that the Verney Lovett plan was the only feasible scheme of unification, but it decided that the amalgamation of the I.M.S. and the R.A.M.C. was at present impracticable.
Then came the Lee Commission of last year, which proposed that the R.A.M.C. should absorb the I.M.S.—which, I believe, would give rise to a great many administrative difficulties—and that a civil branch should be created which would be 50 per cent. Indian-recruited. The Report alluded rather ominously to "the requirements of the Provinces for a separate medical service." Those words seem to show that there had been some political pressure brought to bear on the Commission, and I believe that our best medical graduates will never join a provincial medical service which would quickly become purely Indian, whatever proportion you arbitrarily fixed. Under the Act of 1919 all the Medical Services were made into a Transferred Subject and subsequently a boycott of the Indian Medical Service officers was set up. In many places they were boycotted as consultants and in other places attempts have been made to prevent patients from entering hospitals which are under their administration.
India has produced a limited number of medical men of marked ability, and the sub-assistant surgeons, a class which we have created, has done much useful
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work, especially when under British supervision. But India has never shown the aptitude for Western medical science which has distinguished Japan. There are reasons why that should be so. The ways of the Western Medical Service there have not yet won the full confidence of the Indian people, or even of all the educated classes, although Mr. Gandhi, who is the greatest protagonist of Indian methods was not anxious to be operated upon by an Indian surgeon. Vaids and Hakims are still numerous and influential and they account annually for a considerable part of the mortality of the people in India. The Ayurvedic and Unani systems, which are not really systems, are now being subsidised from public funds in some places at the public expense, and this waste of public money is sure to be increased in the future. There can be no doubt that if the Indian Medical Service is not restored there will be a large reversion to indigenous methods which will have a disastrous effect upon the general health in India, and there will also be widespread corruption of the kind described in a letter to me from an Indian sufferer which I read to the House only the other day.
India cannot at present produce men capable of directing, teaching and developing an exotic system of medicine and surgery and, besides that, caste laws may and very often do interfere with the work of the Indian practitioner. Of the very large number of students we turn out annually from our medical schools a considerable proportion never make any attempt to practice, and many of them become politicians, while a few have specialised in bombs. So far as our fellow-countrymen, women and children in India are concerned, I am sure we all feel that it is the duty of the Government to provide them with medical assistance from men of their own race. The Lee Commission admits this and proposes to set up districts, each possessing a European officer whose journeys to patients, or the journeys of patients to him, may be defrayed in whole or in part at the public expense. If the districts are made small enough this plan might work, but already in some cases great hardship exists in the distance of British people from a doctor. To live in India a hundred miles from medical assistance adds terribly to the anxieties of our

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married officials and tends to make service in India more and more undesirable.
I hope I have said enough to show the great importance of this Question in relation to the Indian peoples as well as to our own countrymen serving in India. I do not forget the work of the medical missions, of which I saw a great deal. They also are bringing Western science to the people of India and perhaps especially to the women of India who certainly are in dire need of it. The difficulties in finding a solution of many of the present problems are very great, in view of the hostility to British officials, to British methods and even to British science, which has been generated in recent years. I dislike and distrust centralisation, but I am convinced that the general direction of any Civil Medical Service in India, of medical education and of medical research must be retained in the hands of the Imperial Government. Failing this there will certainly be a general reaction and a fatal lowering of standards in the whole administration of the Medical Services throughout India. The effect of that, I am sure, would be a black calamity to the peoples of India, for whose welfare we still remain absolutely responsible.
I am sure that the noble and learned Earl realises the supreme importance of the Medical Services in India. But I do not think that any one who has not lived some years in India and closely studied the life of the people can quite understand what the decay of the Indian Medical Service must and will mean to them. I again appeal to the noble and learned Earl to think of the vital interests of at least 246 millions of simple, credulous people in British India who know nothing whatever about politics and do not in the least know what is now being said in their name by a small minority. I beg to put my Question and to move.
THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD: My Lords, the concluding sentence in the speech of the noble Lord seems to me to have very little relation to the interesting and largely uncontroversial observations which preceded it. It was really more appropriate to a debate which took place in your Lordships' House some few days ago. The Indian Medical Service and its organisation has always been a question
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of extreme difficulty. It is at the same time, as the noble Lord has pointed out, a military and a civil medical service, and no one knows better than the noble Lord that the interests of the two branches have not always been the same. The reforms of 1919, as the noble Lord informed the House, introduced a further complication, and it should be made clear at the outset that the obligations are those that are laid on the Government by the Government of India Act and the statutory Rules which were made under it. The cardinal fact is that, generally speaking, the civil medical administration of India in the Provinces, including the administration of hospitals, public health and the provision for medical education, is a Provincial Transferred Subject; that is to say, the responsibility for it rests with Ministers and by a Rule under the Act the Secretary of State, one of my predecessors, has divested himself of the powers of superintendence and control which he formerly exercised in regard to it.
The Lee Commission, subject to the limitations I will presently mention, took the same line with the Indian Medical Service as with other All-India Services dealing with Transferred Subjects. It appeared to them to be the logical and the practical sequence of the reforms that, subject to the reservation of the rights of present members of the Service, the Provincial Governments should in future recruit and control the Services for whose work they were responsible to the Provincial Legislatures. Their view has been accepted in principle for the Indian Medical Service as for the other Services in question. In the case of the Indian Medical Service, however, the general principle is limited by two important considerations: First, the Civil Medical Service is the only source from which a medical reserve for the needs of the Army, and in particular its requirements in trained British medical men, can be easily obtained in emergency; secondly, I have decided to adopt the recommendations of the Lee Commission for the provision for European services of medical attendance by British medical men.
I will now deal with the various heads mentioned specifically by the noble Lord. In the light of what I have said it will be clear that the Secretary of State will no longer undertake be recruit officers for the medical administration of India

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generally or, in particular, for civil hospitals as such. Nor can he assume responsibility for the medical care of British non-officials resident in India. But the Act left as "Central Subjects," for which the Government of India are responsible, a number of matters, for instance, central agencies for research and technical training and the promotion of special studies, and a reserved responsibility in regard to legislation for infectious diseases and the regulation of medical qualifications and standards. For these the Secretary of State remains responsible and he will continue to recruit officers to deal with them. He will also, of course, recruit for the civil medical needs of administrations that remain directly under the Government of India, and for the Political Department.
There remain for consideration the provisions to be made (1) for the Army, including its Medical Reserve, and (2) for medical attendance on the European Services as recommended by the Lee Commission. I have received the recommendations of the Government of India on these matters and their consideration is already well advanced in my office. I am not yet in a position to communicate my final decisions, but I may, perhaps, indicate the lines on which I think a solution of this difficult question will be found. The Lee Commission, with some hesitation, for they realised that military organisation lay outside their terms of reference, recommended that the military side of the Indian Medical Service should be absorbed in the Royal Army Medical Corps. The proposal has received very careful consideration from the Government of India and myself, and we have come to the conclusion that the solution proposed would raise many more difficulties on the military side than it would solve. We therefore think that the Indian Medical Service must be maintained. It would be essentially a Military Service, but its reserve would be secured by lending officers to the Civil Administration. A consideration of the numbers in question goes to show that the number of European officers in the reserve so lent would be sufficient to provide for the needs of the European Services on the lines of the scheme proposed by the Lee Commission. These officers would be stationed at the headquarters of groups of districts throughout India, and would be made available for the European Services
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and their families. The officers required by the Government of India for the central medical subjects would also be obtained from the Military Indian Medical Service.
It is, of course, a matter of the first importance whether a service constituted on these lines will attract recruits of the right class. I am inclined to think that it will be essential, with this in view, to reserve for the portion of the Army Reserve lent to the civil side but not required directly for the medical care of the British Services, a number of civil appointments; for instance, research or professorial appointments. Such appointments have always been one of the attractions of the Indian Medical Service, and if the essential Army Reserve maintained in civil employment allows a margin, as it almost certainly will, it is clearly a gain not only from the point of view of recruiting inducements but a gain to Indian public health generally that they should be employed in the departments of research and teaching in which their predecessors have done so much for the welfare of India.
My statement on the matter is necessarily tentative, for the final conclusion can only be reached after a careful balancing of the various interests involved, and, in particular, the claims of the Local Governments to the control of the Provincial medical administration. But, as I have said, I am hopeful that a solution may be found on these lines, and that it will appeal to the medical profession. I am the more optimistic on the last point because, unlike certain other Services, the Indian Medical Service is at present obtaining recruits of a high standard from the medical profession in this country, notwithstanding the uncertainty of the position pending my decision. I need hardly give the noble Lord an assurance that I shall not fail carefully to read what he said as reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT, because it is a little difficult to gather precisely, in dealing with these somewhat technical matters, what is said at the moment. I will, however, carefully read what the noble Lord has said.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble and learned Earl, and to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SUMMER TIME BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Desborough.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Summer Time Act to be made, permanent, and period of summer time extended.
1.—(1) The Summer Time Act, 1922, shall become a permanent Act, and subsection (3) of section three of that Act is hereby repealed.
(2) Subsection (1) of section three of the Summer Time Act, 1922 (which defines the period of summer time for the purposes of that Act) shall, as from the commencement of this Act, have effect as though the first Saturday in October were therein substituted for the third Saturday in September.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM and the DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM and the DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH had given Notice of Amendments to Clause 1.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I see that the noble Duke proposes to leave out one word, and the noble Lord proposes to leave out the same word and a number of other words. I suggest to your Lordships that it might be convenient to take first the one word "October." Then, if the noble Duke's Amendment is agreed to, the noble Lord's can follow, to leave out the rest of the words.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I suggest to the Lord Chairman that if you put in "October" it would be too late to talk about May. In that sense, the May Amendment comes first. Perhaps it might be moved in a different form.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: If that be convenient then we can take Lord Banbury's Amendment first, and in the meantime I will think out a way of saving the noble Duke's Amendment.
LORD DESBOROUGH: Would it be possible to give one reply? The reply? the same in both cases.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM omit from subsection (2) all "the first Saturday in," and
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insert "May were substituted for the third Saturday in April, and the first Saturday in September for the third Saturday in September." The noble Lord said: This Bill is as bad an example of legislation by reference as any I have ever seen. It is quite incomprehensible unless you obtain the original Act and study it carefully. The effect of my Amendment, if carried, would be that summer time would commence upon the first Saturday in May, and terminate on the first Saturday in September. I do not deny for a moment that there are a few farmers who do not see very much objection to summer time, but taking farmers as a whole the farming interest in all parts of Great Britain is opposed to it. Farmers are opposed to it because it is detrimental to their business. In the early morning there is a large amount of dew, and consequently, in the hay and corn harvest, operations cannot be commenced. In this summer, which is a very dry one, there has hardly been, to my knowledge in my county, where I spend three or four days each week, a morning without a heavy dew. I have been out in order to see whether or not it was a fact that there was a heavy dew which prevented hay operations starting. We know that in September there always is a heavy dew, and though sometimes the harvest in England is over by the first week in September, or possibly the last week in August, in other parts of the country, especially in Scotland, the harvest does not begin until early or even the middle of September.
We are told over and over again that the great need of this country is an extension of the corn area, and here we are introducing a Bill the object of which is to put difficulties in the way of producing corn. What is supposed to be the advantage? The advantage is that certain people may play lawn tennis a little longer, or, as one of the supporters of the Bill in the House of Commons told me only a few days ago, that women may shop. I do not wish to enter into a discussion as to whether or not it is advisable that women may shop, but I do say that the limitation of the shopping of women is not to be compared with the injury that is inflicted upon the agricultural community by summer time in the months in which it is proposed to enact it.
There is also the point of view of milkers. In my county a great deal of milk is produced. I do not do any milk business myself, but I know that the milkers have to begin work at five o'clock in the morning. I have provided myself with Whitaker's Almanack for this year, and I find that the sun rises on, April 4 at 5.32 a.m. These unfortunate people have to get up in the dark and milk their cows in the dark, in order that certain dwellers in the towns may have a little longer time to play lawn tennis find a certain number of women a little longer time to shop. In September it is even worse. Take September 13, the sun does not rise, I find, until 5.21 a.m. and, therefore certain people have to get up in the dark again, do their work in the dark, and again for the reasons which I have given. I believe the miners are strongly opposed to a very long summer time—I do not know why—and also that the fishermen are opposed to it.
I think it is extremely doubtful whether it is good for children. I know certain medical men have said that it is, but I have been told over and over again by people in my own neighbourhood that it is not good for the children; they will not go to sleep in the light, and they have to get up much earlier in the morning in consequence of this summer time. But there is a further objection to having summer time in April and in September. It is called a Summer Time Bill, and I presume that the promoters are desirous of doing something in the summer. We never have any summer until the middle of May, generally it is the end of May, and although the first ten days in September may be somewhat like summer time—I remember very fine days in September—yet, as a rule, towards the end of September there is very little summer.
Then a very large number of people have to go to business early in the morning. Why should they be compelled to get up an hour earlier on a cold April morning, or a cold morning in May, merely because certain people want to play lawn tennis? This Amendment of mine would preserve a reasonable amount of time for extra recreation to the dwellers in towns, while it would do something to assist agriculture and remedy a grievance which a considerable number of people feel at being compelled to get up in the dark on cold mornings.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out from ("in") to the end of the clause, and insert ("May were substituted for the third Saturday in April and the first Saturday in September for the third Saturday in September").—(Lord Banbury of Southom.)
THE DUKE OF BUCCOLEUCH: I have an Amendment to leave out "October" and insert "September." I do not know whether the noble Lord who is to reply would like me to speak now—the Amendments are really on the same point—or whether he would like me to speak on my own Amendment.
LORD DESBOHOUGH: My answer will be the same to both Amendments, and it might be given once instead of twice.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: So far as I understand, the view of the Government is that there are probably more votes in favour of the Bill than there are against it, and that is what has determined this question. Whether it is good for the country or not does not seem to come in. If people in England have to get up at five o'clock then they are much more fortunate than the people farther north. These people have to get up much earlier than that, and they feel this summer time very bitterly. I have had a large number of letters on this question, and it must be said that the majority have been in favour of the measure. There was one person who was so keen that he wanted summer time for the whole year round, and remarked that those who were in favour of it would be much worse off as they would have to get up so much earlier in the winter that they would get what he called a "sickener" of it.
There is, however, this important question. The Government, I understand, supports the Bill because the majority of people are in favour of it, and, therefore, they are not likely to accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, or my own Amendment. It means this: that any plea on behalf of agriculture is to be turned down because agriculture has not so many votes. If that is the case I think we should be much better off if the Government were to say that we need not expect anything from them. In, effect they say: "You have not enough votes, and, therefore, you will not get justice."

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That is what it comes to. I do not wish to labour this question as it has been thoroughly thrashed out already, but I would like to read the concluding paragraph of the Report of the Scottish Conference on Agriculture. It puts the case very much better than I can put it.
This is what the Report says—
"We feel some reluctance in concluding our Report with a reference to a subject on which the views of agriculturists have already been so fully and cogently expressed from many quarters. But it is one of such importance and has so direct a bearing on the questions submitted to us in our terms of reference that we cannot refrain from reiterating these views in the strongest possible terms. We appreciate and sympathise with the humane and disinterested motives of those who urge the adoption of summer time for the longest period practicable, but we would appeal to them in turn not to ignore the claims of agriculture to a fair measure of consideration in this matter. These claims are advanced with the unanimous support of all sections engaged in the industry, and for this reason, if for no other, they should not be lightly set aside. Their merits, in our opinion, are indisputable. Summer time for any period, cannot out affect agriculture adversely, but we are willing to sacrifice our interests so far as to compromise on a period of four months, covering May, June, July and August. To begin it at 1st April and, even worse, to continue it through the harvest month of September, would weigh the balance heavily against agriculture, and in the later districts of Scotland, where under normal conditions the grain harvest is a difficult and speculative business, would make all the difference between possible success and certain disaster. It would also lead many to give up milk production, already a very burdensome occupation for the farmer and his employees. The detailed reasons for these statements should be sufficiently well known from the many representations that have been put forward by the various agricultural organisations."
The next paragraph is, I think, really very important. It concludes—
"All we need say is that, if the proposal for a full six months of summer time is persisted in, it will go a long way to cancel the beneficial effects which we earnestly hope our recommendations may be the means of bringing to our fundamental national industry."
Year after year in Scotland and the North of England the crops are absolutely wasted because we cannot get them in, and summer time in the month of September is going to make a difference between partial success and certain disaster. I hope that the Government will look thoroughly into this matter.
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They are very apt to appoint these Committees, but what is the use of appointing Committees if, when the Report comes in, they are going to ignore it and go against its recommendations. If the Government do not accept this Amendment they must take the responsibility and must not cry out if in a year or two—if they are still in power—the returns of arable land in Scotland have considerably gone down.
LORD OLIVIER: I want, not as representing the Labour Party but as a man who has lived most of his life in the country and is also familiar with town life, to support the position of the noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam. We who live in the country and agricultural workers generally get up about as early as is possible to do our work, especially in the dairy trades, and particularly in spring and in late autumn, when we want to start harvesting as early as we can. We get up at a reasonable time, and it appears to us rather unreasonable that, on behalf of the town dwellers, who, we think, do not get up at a reasonable time, we should be forced to get up at an earlier hour and that our spring and autumn production should be hampered in order that town dwellers—not so much of the working classes as of the middle classes—who get up later than they need and later than the majority of the human race, may have a longer period in the evening. We do not think that we ought to be put in that difficulty when we are carrying on productive industries
It would be more reasonable, and the burden would be distributed very much better, if the town workers formed the habit of getting up and starting their work earlier in the day, in order that they might leave a little earlier in the afternoon, rather than that agriculturists, at crucial times of the year, should be hampered in the morning by having to do their work at an uneconomic time and in the afternoon by having to leave off at a time when they might be doing three or four hours more work. That is why I think that the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, deserves very great sympathy. The balance of convenience to the public will be very much better distributed if the Amendment is accepted.
LORD SEMPILL: I wish to support my noble friend the mover of this Amendment, and also to speak on behalf of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. The noble Lord has spoken of the harvest in this country. I come from a very much more northerly district than he does, where we stiffer very much from the late harvests that we usually have. Very often snow is on the ground before our harvest is gathered in. In this connection I should like to refer to the remarks of the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading. He said:
"The reason of the farmers' objection to summer time starting so early as the beginning of April was that in most counties there are early frost,"
He might have added that we in the North suffer not only from frost but from very heavy dew. Later on, the noble Lord said, referring to the objections of agriculturists, that. he fully admitted that they were very serious objections. The fact of the matter is that the agriculturist, because he represents a smaller body of the community than the town population, is to be sacrificed to it. History shows that in bygone days the aristocracy, supported by the country yeomanry, were usually the people to fight the country's battles.
This Bill is a compromise. Agriculturists do not oppose it from selfish motives and they do not say that there should be no summer time at all. But I do feel that the agriculturist is deserving of some consideration. We are constantly hearing cries about making the country fit for heroes to live in and about, going back to the land. What is the inducement to go bark to the land? What is the state of the land? To Scotland one-fifth of the land has changed hands since the War, and it does not look as if it is a very good thing to be a landlord. The troubles of the landlord are shared by the farmer and the agricultural worker, for each depends upon the others. I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer at this time of the evening, but, if my noble friend goes to a Division, I shall certainly support him.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I have very great sympathy with the case put by the Farmers' Union and other agriculturists and I have no doubt whatever that, if we had to consider the agricultural industry alone, it would be better if there had
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never been any time-saving Bill at all. I was opposed to the scheme when it was originally introduced in another places but circumstances are not quite the same now, because the measure has been in operation, it has been very fully debated in another place and I think that the result of that debate does represent the views of a very great majority of the people of this country. As regards field work, harvesting and so on, I believe that the difficulty may be got over. After all, on moonlight nights we sometimes work all night, at least in the less favoured districts of the northern part of this country. You cannot, however, get over the hardships caused to the dairying industry and the excessively early hours at which women and other workers have to rise. That burden is greatly aggravated by this Bill. On the whole, however, I would prefer to see, and I hope that the Government will see, that agriculture receives that just consideration and those measures of relief which the noble Duke who supports this Amendment so well put before the House, rather than an interference with this Bill as it has been brought up to this house. I think it is on those lines that a real relief will be given and justice will be done to the agricultural industry. As I have said, I think that, in every respect except dairying, we can get over the undoubted hardship which this Bill causes to the agricultural industry. I need not recapitulate the advantages, real or imaginary, which the towns and large proportions of other districts in the country find in this system, which has already been tried for some years. We have to recollect also that in a great agricultural country, our neighbour on the Continent, the same system of summer time is in force. It is a little difficult to understand this. I should not have thought that France would ever adopt summer time.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: They are very much further south.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: That is true, but I should have thought that a great agricultural country like France would have hesitated to adopt summer time. I think it is inadvisable to oppose the measure here, although the hardships of the agricultural industry are greater than those that may be suffered in France. I regret, as an agriculturist, that summer time

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was ever introduced, but I think that in the circumstances in which we find ourselves it is very difficult to oppose the Bill.
LORD DESBOROUGH: I hope it will be convenient to your Lordships that I should return what will practically be one reply to both Amendments put down by my noble friends, because the result would be the same in either case, and do not wish to repeat my arguments. I must say that I was very much surprised to hear Lord Banbury say that the object of this Bill was to put another hindrance in the way of agriculture, and also to enable people to play lawn tennis and to facilitate shopping. I have had the advantage of reading the debate in another place, and I must say that there the arguments against the Bill were put in a very much more serious and more becoming way. There is no doubt, in my mind, and I have had some experience in agriculture, having been head of some of the great agricultural societies for many years past, that on the whole this Bill is not, and I do not pretend that it is, acceptable to agriculturists, but I must say, having read the debates in another place, that I was surprised and comforted to find that many representatives of agriculture, both on behalf of the labourers and the farmers, spoke in high terms of the results of summer time.
Instead of the object of this Bill being to give more time for people to play lawn tennis and for ladies to do their shopping, we have the practically unanimous opinion of doctors that this measure has greatly increased the health of the people. That is one of the main grounds on which I shall ask the House to support this Bill. We have also the testimony of those who are interested in the education of five millions of our children, who by two to one have expressed themselves in the strongest way in favour of the principle of summer time for the sake of the children.
What is the position now of this country with regard to summer time? Every Session of Parliament this country is open to a Bill being brought in to alter summer time. Hardly one member of the Legislature, either Lord or Commoner, and not even Lord Banbury, would presume to bring in a Bill to do away with summer time altogether, but every Session, as long as this matter remains open, there will be
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uncertainty as to the duration of summer time. It has become, as was stated in another place, a Sessional nuisance, and until some arrangement is arrived at it is impossible for this country to carry out its engagements with France and Belgium, which in the interests of all three countries it is absolutely necessary should be carried out.
The advice of the Prime Minister, who is himself an agriculturist, to agriculturists, was that they should take what they can get now for fear of getting something lees if they asked for more. This Bill comes here as an absolutely non-Party measure. It was left to the free vote of the House of Commons, and both on the Second Reading and on the Report stage it was carried by an enormous majority. On the Report Stage there was a concession made to the agricultural interest; that is to say, although the supporters of the Bill were unwilling to give up the end of the holidays—namely, the last week in September—which would necessitate the disturbing of all the railway companies' time tables and bills, they were willing, for the sake of giving what they could to the agricultural industry, to make summer time begin rather later than was at first intended.
I venture to give this advice to my friends behind me: that it would be much wiser, in the interests of agriculture, to accept the arrangement arrived at, rather than reject this Bill by carrying these Amendments, with the result that next year they would find themselves faced with a demand for the whole six months, which they would not be able to resist. Therefore I appeal to my noble friends, and to the House, in the interests of agriculture, to accept this Bill as it stands and not to amend it and so cause it to be lost. I am afraid, for the reasons I have given, and in the interests of agriculture, that I can accept neither of the Amendments proposed by my noble friends behind me.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I should like to say one word in reply. My noble friend has made a very good Second Reading speech, but he has not actually dealt with either of the Amendments at all.
LORD DESBOROUGH: I said that I was afraid I could not accept either.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: That was all my noble friend said.
LORD DESBOROUGH: I pointed out that the reason I could not accept them was that they would kill the Bill. They are equally bad, in my opinion, but of the two I prefer that of the noble Duke.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: It does not follow that my Amendment, if carried, would kill the Bill. We are going to have an autumn Session and therefore there is any amount of time available. I should like to point out, moreover, that my Amendment does not touch the arrangement made, if it was an arrangement, as regards the opening of summer time. The Bill as passed last year only went to the third week in September, and now we are going into October. I would be prepared to compromise in that respect, if the noble Lord will accept an Amendment ending summer time in the third week in September. If he will not do so, then we will press this question on either Lord Banbury's Amendment or my Amendment.
LORD SALTOUN: I think there is one thing forgotten, and that is that in the North of Scotland, where I live, conditions are very different from those in the South. September in Scotland is the time when the harvest begins, and the sun sets very much earlier than it does in the South. In the early morning, owing to summer time, the labourers come down to take up work and have to stand about for a considerable time, because of the dew on the land. There is no other work for them to do, and yet for all those hours of waiting the farmer has to pay wages to the labourers. A second point is that the daylight ends at a very much earlier hour, and therefore it is impossible for them to get through the harvest in the time available. I think these are two very important points in regard to the
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I am quite prepared to withdraw my Amendment in order to take the Amendment of the noble Duke.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (2), to substitute "September" for "October."
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out ("October") and insert ("September").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
LORD DESBOROUGH: I am afraid the objections to this Amendment are almost as great as they are to the other. They are, at any rate, fatal. The whole of this point was debated over and over again in another place. I have tried to point out that it is most inconvenient to the people of this country to have all their trains altered towards the end of September, and I am afraid that this Amendment, if carried, would be absolutely fatal to the Bill. On both occasions the opponents of the Bill only mustered sixty-three votes in the House of Commons out of 700 against this Bill.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: There are only 615 Members of the House of Commons.
LORD DESBOROUGH: I was confusing the Lords and the Commons; but, at any rate, they only mustered sixty-three. After what was said in the House of Commons the last time this was discussed, I very much doubt whether there would be even sixty-three votes for the noble Duke's Amendment.
On Question, Whether the word "October" shall stand part of the Clause?—
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 57; Not-Contents, 8.

CONTENTS.

Cave, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Eldon, E.

Churchill, V.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Hutchinson, V. (Earl Donoughmore.)

Sutherland, D.

Onslow, E.

Plymouth, E. [Teller.]

Novar. V.

Lincolnshire, M. (L. Great Chamberlain.)

Stanhope, K.

Strafford, E.

Southwark, L. Bp.

Beauchamp, E.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Aldenham, L.

Clarendon, E.

Cecil of Chelwood, V.

Arnold, L.

De La Warr, E.

Chaplin, V.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Askwith, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Sandhurst, L.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Jessel, L.

Somers, L.

Biddulph, L.

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Southwark, L.

Clwyd, L.

Lawrence, L.

Stanmore, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Merrivale, L.

Stuart of Wortley, L.

Danesfort, L.

Merthyr, L.

Sumner, L.

Darling, L.

Muir Mackenzie, L.

Swaythling, L.

Desborough, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Sydenham of Combe, L

Dunmore, L. (E. Dunmore.)

Raglan, L.

Templemore, L.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Ruthven of Gowrie, L.

Thomson, L.

Gainford, L.

Saltersford, L. (E. Coutown.)

Treowen, L.

Hemphill, L.

Wavertree, L.

NOT CONTENTS.

Bath, M.

Banbury of Southam, L. [Teller.]

Saltoun, L.

Sempill, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.) [Teller.]

Clinton, L.

Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Bill, and I hope that the Amendment will be agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Bill reported without Amendment.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, this is an Annual Bill which I do not think ever gives rise to discussion in your Lordships' House. I do not intend, therefore, to delay your Lordships with any observations upon it, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, this Bill is certified as a Money Bill, and therefore I do not think it is necessary for your Lordships to go into Committee
572
upon it. I beg to move that the Bill be committed.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Committee negatived.

DANGEROUS DRUGS BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (SUPER ANNUATION) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.

IRVINE BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Irvine Burgh, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned at a quarter before seven o'clock.

MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
BURNLEY CORPORATION BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
KIRKCUDBRIGHT BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
LEEDS CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
POOLE HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
LONDON ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.]
  LONDON ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
MONEYLENDERS BILL. [H.L.]
  MONEYLENDERS (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Report from the Joint Committee made, and to be printed. The Moneylenders Bill [H.L.] reported with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House, and to be printed as amended.