Sitting of 16 July 1925

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Boothferry Bridge Bill [Lords].
Bill to be read a Second time.
London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill [Lords],
As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
London and North Eastern Railway Order Confirmation Bill,
Consideration deferred till To-morrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    PENSIONS AREA OFFICERS.
    Mr. DALTONasked the Minister of Pensions whether the principal officers of areas employed by the Ministry are paid on a population basis; if so, what is the number of grades into which the areas are divided and the range of salary of each grade; and why a number of these officers are paid less than the minimum rate for their respective grades?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): On the institution of areas in 1922 they were divided into three main groups on a population basis, the normal minimum salaries of the chief area officers in the groups being £650, £500 and £400 respectively. There were, however, some instances in which the relative importance of the work of the area office or other considerations did not justify the payment of this normal minimum, and the number of such instances has increased in consequence of the considerable decline in the volume of work. The need for review of the rates of salary and the principles on which they have been fixed has, consequently, arisen, and the matter has recently been referred to the Departmental Whitley Council for discussion.

    CIVIL SERVANTS (DEGRADATION).
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, apart from any question of misconduct or loss of salary, civil servants have at any time been liable to be or have been arbitrarily degraded from the class for which a Civil Service certificate has been granted by the Civil Service Commission to any inferior class; if so, in what circumstances; and whether a civil servant would have been informed of the fact of and the reason for his degradation at the time?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Guinness): I an afraid that I do not understand what the hon. and gallant Member has in mind when he refers to "arbitrary degradation." If he has any particular case before him and will give me details I will have inquiries made.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Would it not be arbitrary degradation for a man who had received a first-class certificate suddenly to be told that he had not one?
    Mr. GUINNESS: If he had not got a certificate, I take it he cannot have been degraded' from any grade which he had not ever entered.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: If I produce cases running into double figures, will the right hon. Gentleman go into them?
    Mr. GUINNESS: I will be glad to go into them.

    EX-SERVICE MEN (EXAMINATION QUESTIONS).
    Mr. DALTONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to a question put at a recent examination of ex-service men for permanent posts in the Civil Service requiring the candidates to compose a letter designed to persuade a friend to join the Labour party; and whether he will make representations to the Civil Service Commissioners that it is undesirable that questions be asked at an examination for the Civil Service which may create the impression that political party considerations affect the appointments?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The hon. Member does not accurately quote the question referred to, which was as follows:
    "Taking the standpoint either of a keen supporter or of a keen opponent of the Labour party, write a letter in which you try to persuade a friend who holds opinions opposed to yours to come round to your point of view. Sign the letter with a fictitious name."
    As the question was thus strictly impartial, and as the candidates' numbers only, and not their names, appear on their examination papers, I cannot agree that the question is calculated to convey the impression suggested by the hon. Member.
    Colonel DAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman at the next examination suggest that it should be the Conservative party instead of the Labour party?
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: May I ask the light hon. Gentleman whether he will have the answers compiled into a handbook for speakers?
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does the Financial Secretary not see at once that this is a sort of question which is open to very grave abuse which would enable the examiners to exercise political bias, and will he have future questions of this sort prevented?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The hon. and gallant Member must not understand from my answer that the examiners know the identity of those who are answering. It is part of the examination to show general knowledge and to show facility of expression, which such a letter would naturally do.
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Does the right hon. Gentleman not even see that, without knowing the name, it would be possible to undermark or over-mark according to the political colour of the person asking the question, and is it not most improper in the Civil Service? [Laughter.] I notice the right hon. Gentleman laughs, but this is no laughing matter, and it should not be treated as a joke. I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is right for a Minister to treat this matter of importance as a joke?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member is speaking as if he were on the platform. Of course he is entitled to ask a supplementary question, and I have allowed him to do so. But he must wait and see if there is an answer.
    Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Quite apart from whether it is going to be used or abused, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a type of' question that it would be far better to avoid in these examinations?
    Mr. GUINNESS: As far as possible I think it is undesirable to interfere with the discretion of the Civil Service Commissioners, and it would be very difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule that no reference to politics is to be made in general knowledge questions.
    Mr. DALTON: May I ask the Financial Secretary whether, in view of the great interest taken in this matter at Question Time to-day, and the very strong feeling expressed in all quarters of the House, he will draw the attention of the Civil Service Commissioners to the feeling of a large section of this House about this particular question for their future guidance?
    Mr. GUINNESS: The Civil Service Commissioners will no doubt see the questions which have been asked in this House.
    Mr. DALTON: I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will draw their attention to it instead of leaving it to chance.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The answer has already been given.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: On a point or Order. I wish to point out that I have not had an answer to my

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    question. I put a question to the Financial Secretary, and he was good enough to laugh at it, but he did not give me an answer.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It may have been that the question was bound up with too many other things. Will the hon. and gallant Member put his simple question?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: My simple question was—[Interruption.]
    Mr. GUINNESS: I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I was not laughing at him in any way.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not mind the right hon. Gentleman laughing at me.
    Mr. GUINNESS: I am sure the Civil Service Commissioners did not wish to show any bias against the Liberal party.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I do not care whether the right hon. Gentleman was laughing at me or not, but I think I am entitled to an answer and not to be laughed at. It is the question I object to being laughed at.
    Mr. SPEAKER: It is more than I can do to try to control the risible faculties of Ministers.
    An HON. MEMBER: Is it incumbent on a Minister to answer any supplementary question, however stupid?
    Mr. SPEAKER: Ministers are not bound to answer supplementary questions.
    Colonel DAY: I put a question to the Minister before supplementary questions were put by any other hon. Members asking whether in future examinations the word "Conservative" would be used instead of "Labour"?

    EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES.
    Colonel DAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that many persons who have been granted licences by the London County Council for the purpose of running employment agencies, and have subsequently had such licences cancelled by this body on account of the breach of their regulations through improper practices and other causes, have imme-
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    diately re-started this business outside the area under the control of the London County Council; and will he take steps to introduce the necessary legislation which shall apply generally to the licensing of employment agencies throughout Great Britain?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): I understand there have been a certain number of such cases. I am already considering a proposal which was recently placed before me by the Trades Union Congress that powers for licensing theatrical agencies should be extended throughout the country: but the suggestion that powers should be given for licensing all employment agencies is a much bigger question. I think it had better wait until the narrower question has been dealt with. Provision for the registration of female domestic servants' agencies is already made in the Public Health Act, 1907.
    Colonel DAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that until licences for theatrical agencies are made general, there will be no protection for girls who are liable to be engaged by bogus managers throughout the country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have already said that in this matter the General Council of the Trade Union Congress approached me only a fortnight ago, and I am already considering whether I cannot introduce legislation for the purpose.

  POLICE.

    PAY AND ALLOWANCES COMMITTEE.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction felt by many local authorities at the small percentage of representatives which they have on the Committee he has appointed to consider the question of deductions from police pay and allowances; and, in view of the desirability of the Committee's findings being generally accepted by those concerned, will he consider the desirability of increasing the size of the Committee so as to give the direct representatives of the ratepayers and taxpayers a larger representation than four out of 16 members as at present?
    Sir JOHN MARRIOTTasked the Home Secretary whether he has received from any watch committees of municipal corporations, or other police authorities, representations as to the constitution of the Committee set up by him to consider the question of police pay and allowances; and whether he will be prepared to increase the non-official representation on that Committee?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The Committee have already completed their labours, having presented on 9th June a Report which, I am happy to say, was unanimous.
    Mr. HAYES: Is it not correct to say that the representation on this Committee is really 12, representing the taxpayers and the ratepayers, as against four from the rank and file of the police service?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not think that my hon. Friend's figures are quite accurate. I have tried, in forming this Committee, to get a representation of the whole of the parties without a very strict reference to the arithmetical proportion. I am glad to say that the Committee has been most successful, and that they have presented a unanimous Report with acclamation.
    Mr. HAYES: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the representatives of the police rank and file are only four as against a total of 16? Does he not depreciate the attempt now being made to reconstitute the police council from which this Committee is drawn?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think that it would be a very great pity to attack this Committee, because it has done so well.

    ARREST OF ARMY OFFICER (INQUIRY).
    Mr. MacKENZIE LIVINGSTONEasked the Home Secretary whether he has called for and received a Report on the allegations made at the Central Criminal Court this week against the conduct of the police at Vine Street police station; and, if so, what are its contents?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes, Sir. The Commissioner of Police has asked me to direct an independent inquiry into
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    the action of the police in this case. I concur in his recommendation, and have given directions accordingly, and I am glad to say my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) has accepted my invitation to hold the inquiry.
    Mr. HAYES: Will the officers concerned in this matter be allowed to be represented?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put that question later. I only heard of the case two or three days ago, when it was finished in the Court. I at once communicated with the Commissioner of Police. I then communicated with my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University, who yesterday afternoon very kindly consented to hold an inquiry. I wish, necessarily, to see him and discuss the method in which the inquiry will be held, but I have no doubt that every arrangement will be made for every one concerned being represented.
    Colonel DAY: Will the inquiry be held in public?
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Will the inquiry be confined within the narrow limits of the particular case, or, will a general inquiry be made?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think for the moment, certainly, that it should be confined to the narrow limits of the individual case. So far, however, as I know at present there is no general charge levied against the police. Therefore, there would be nothing to inquire upon in that respect. With respect to the suggestion of holding the inquiry in public I have a view on that, but I think until I have consulted my right hon. Friend I prefer to say nothing.
    Mr. HAYES: Will the evidence be taken on oath?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: To all these questions I could have said, by way of reply, that I would make a statement later. I thought it desirable in the interest of the police and the public to make at the earliest moment the announcement that the inquiry will take place. I am sure the House will give me time to consult my right hon. Friend before saying anything further.
    Mr. MacKENZIE LIVINGSTONE: Surely the Minister might decide whether this should be a public or private inquiry? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]

    STEAM TRACTORS (PROSECUTIONS).
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Home Secretary the number of prosecutions which have taken place in connection with steam tractors which emit smoke and sparks to the annoyance and danger of the public for each month during the last two years?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am sorry that I have not got this information in my possession.

  MOTOR TRAFFIC.

    CHILDREN (FATAL ACCIDENTS).
    Mr. HARRISasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a number of fatal accidents have recently been caused by children running in front of motor cars to ascertain their licence numbers in order to win a prize in some competition; and whether he will consider taking some action to bring to the attention of the public, and particularly children in the schools, the danger involved?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Only one fatality is known to the Metropolitan police during the present year. The objections to the practice have already been brought prominently before the public, and the police have written to all the education authorities in the Metropolitan police district.
    Mr. PALING: Has the Home Secretary any knowledge of such a practice?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Honestly, I have not. But one does know that children do rush about in front of motor cars, and we are doing all we can through the educational authorities to prevent what is a very dangerous practice.

    POLICE PROSECUTIONS.
    Captain BRASSasked the Home Secretary the total strength of W. Division of the Metropolitan police in police officers; and how many of these officers
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    were employed dressed in civilian attire to prosecute motorists for infringements of the Motor Car Acts and Roads Acts during the week-ends 16th to 18th May, 13th to 15th June, and 11th to 13th July, respectively?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson): The total strength of the division is about 910 men. The maximum number of officers employed for the purpose indicated was six.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOSEPH NALL: Will the hon. Gentleman, in the public interest, continue to apply the Motor Car Acts more rigidly?
    Captain BRASS: Do I understand that there were only six officers in the whole of the W Division of the Metropolitan police in plain clothes during those four week-ends?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: In answer to the first supplementary question, the Acts are carried out as far as I know. The reply to the second supplementary question is in the affirmative.
    Captain BRASS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Sutton trap is in operation and also the Mitcham trap, and that they employ more than that?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Member seems to know morn about it than the Minister.

    WOMEN AND YOUNG PERSONS (FACTORY HOURS).
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the cases of excessive hours worked by women and young persons quoted in the Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories; and whether it is his intention to prevent the continuance of such practices by introducing a statutory 48-hour week for women and young persons?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: In the cases referred to by the noble Lord the hours worked by the women and young persons were in flagrant contravention of the maximum limits prescribed by the present Act, and I fail to see how a reduction of

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    those limits could have any effect in stopping such practices. Cases of this kind will, I am afraid, always be liable to occur from time to time, but I am glad to say they are quite exceptional.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chief Factory Inspector's Report alludes to the fact that a great many complaints of overwork are found on investigation to be well within the legislative limits?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am afraid my Noble Friend is referring to a particular section. I thought it was a question of the hours being beyond the present maximum. That, I say, is exceptional and would not be met by an alteration of the maximum.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: I will put another question later.

    INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENTS.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the increase of industrial accidents for 1924, given in the Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories, in which it is stated that there is an increase of 44,172 industrial accidents over the previous year; and whether he is satisfied that the inspectors of factories are numerically adequate to see that the Home Office Regulations are properly carried out?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am aware of the increase, but it was attributable, I have no doubt, to the causes assigned by the Chief Inspector in pages 11 to 13 of the Report, namely, increased activity in the industries chiefly responsible for accidents and the changes in the standard of notification introduced by the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1923. As to the adequacy, generally, of the factory staff, I am not altogether satisfied, but I agree with the view of my predecessor in office, that it would not be advisable to deal with this question pending the passage of the Factories Bill.
    Mr. PALING: Has the increased activity in these industries and the excessive hours that are being worked to execute orders anything to do with the number of accidents?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not quite know. I cannot really carry in my mind the full Report of the Factory Inspector. I cannot recall that there is any evidence as to the increased hours meaning an increased number of accidents in the industries, but simply, as it were, the increased work has meant an increased proportion of accidents.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Did not the right hon. Gentleman's two predecessors admit that the factory inspectorate was very inadequate. Is it not time that some legislation to deal with the obvious injustice to the industrial workers of the country should be attempted?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If my predecessors said it was inadequate, they did not remedy it. I have indicated that I am not altogether satisfied. When the Factories Bill is introduced and more work is cast upon the inspectors, there will be good ground for more inspectors.

  EDUCATION.

    ACCIDENTS (RESPONSIBILITY OF TEACHERS).
    Colonel DAYasked the President of the Board of Education whether head teachers of London County Council elementary schools are held responsible in any way for accidents to children, should such accidents occur, during the time such children are being escorted with the aid of school machinery and finance to places of historical interest under the provisions laid down by the Educational Code?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Duchess of Atholl): My right hon. Friend understands that the London County Council take the view that the matter is not one which admits of being made the subject of a general rule, and they have accordingly made no Regulation with regard to it.

    PLAY CENTRES.
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the President of the Board of Education whether, seeing that the Regulations of the Board of Education prevent children when they reach the age of 14 years from attending play centres, ho will consider the possibility of extending these advantages to children up to 16 years of age?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: The limitation, which the hon. Member no doubt has in mind, is a statutory limitation imposed by Section 22 of the Act, which gives power to local education authorities for elementary education to provide play centres only for children attending public elementary schools. Attendance at a public elementary school is not, however, limited to children up to the age of 14 years. As regards the hon. Member's suggestion for an extension of the facilities, my right hon. Friend would refer him to Section 86 of the Act, under which authorities for higher education are already enabled to make arrangements, with the approval of my Department, for promoting the social and physical training of older boys and girls attending educational institutions.

    ASSISTANT INSPECTORS (AGE LIMIT).
    Mr. HARRISasked the President of the Board of Education why 50 is fixed as the age limit for assistant inspectors of schools; whether he is aware that there are very competent men over that age who are quite qualified to fill that position; and will he consider removing the age limit so that the Board can have the services of the most competent men available to fill such positions?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: The general Regulations respecting appointments to His Majesty's Civil Establishments under the Order in Council of the 22nd July, 1920, prescribe that no person not already holding an established post shall be appointed to an established situation at an age exceeding 50 without the consent of the Treasury, and the Treasury have informed the Board that they are averse from sanctioning the establishment of a person over 50 unless he will have sufficient reckonable service to qualify for pension at the age of 60. Apart from these considerations, my right hon. Friend regards it as essential that assistant inspectors should be recruited at an age when they are likely to retain their adaptability for new work, which on physical grounds alone is of a trying character, and for this purpose he regards the age limit of 50 as by no means too low. My right hon. Friend is, therefore, unable to accept the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
    Mr. HARRIS: Does not the Noble Lady realise that it is rather serious policy to lay it down that a person is too old at 50? At that age some teachers are at the height of their experience, and much more likely to be experienced as inspectors than at any other period?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter for argument.

    NEW ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS.
    Mr. BLUNDELLasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will state the names of the new Roman Catholic schools which he has sanctioned since he took office; the names of those to which he has refused sanction; and the names of those in respect of which the applications were withdrawn; and whether he will state the reasons for which he refused to sanction two schools?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: As the reply to this question is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. DALTON: May I ask whether the Noble Lady could not give us the total sanctioned?
    Duchess of ATHOLL: The hon. Member will find it will not take very long to read the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. DALTON: But would the Noble Lady give us the figure? I wanted to ask how the number compared with the number sanctioned last year.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Noble Lady could not be expected to say that without notice.
    The following in the answer:
    Since replying to my hon. Friend's question on 6th July last, I have sanctioned a further proposal for a new Roman Catholic school. The details are as follow:
    1. Proposals sanctioned.

    (a) England.

    Lancashire, Denton St. Mary's School.

    Swinton and Pendlebury, Moorside Road School.

    St. Helen's, Sutton Manor School.

    Durham, Stanley School.

    Felling, Pelaw School.

    Mansfield, St. Philip's (replacement of an existing school).

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    Kingston-on-Hull, Southcoates Lane School.

    Bootle, The Stanley Hall School.

    (b) Wales.

    Flint, Hawarden Shotton School.

    2. Proposals withdrawn.

    Durham, Lasington Colliery proposed School.

    Essex, Stanford-le-Hope proposed School.

    3. Proposals refused.

    Middlesex, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Rox-borough Park proposed School.

    Yorkshire (North Riding), Pickering proposed School.

    As regards the last part of the question, my decision was taken in each case on the report of the public inquiry, at which the three considerations laid down in Section 19 (1) of the Act were fully argued. Both were cases of existing schools. In one, the Board had already refused a proposal for a new public elementary school put forward by the local education authority, on the ground that further accommodation was not required. In the other, the school contained an exceptionally small number of Roman Catholic children, and, though in dealing with proposals for denominational schools, where the. wishes of the parents are strongly expressed, the fact that the school would be small does not determine the case against them, there is clearly a limit beyond which the Board would not be justified in transferring to public funds the cost of maintaining very small schools to meet the needs of a few families.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

    UNINSURED PERSONS.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health the number of employed persons in this country who are not insured under the National Health Insurance Acts?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): As the answer is necessarily long and contains a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    No precise information of the kind desired by my hon. Friend is available.
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    The number of employed persons aged 12 or over in Great Britain in 1921, according to the Census of that year, was 17,403,053, of whom it is estimated that 16,432,000 were over 16, and the estimated number of persons entitled to benefits under the National Health Insurance Acts in the same year was 15,134,000. The latter figure, however, includes some persons who had ceased to be employed, and for this and other reasons it is not directly comparable with the Census figure. The balance of 1,208,000, therefore, is only a rough approximation to the number of uninsured employed persons, of whom the principal groups are non-manual workers earning more than £250 a year and persons engaged in excepted employment under the Crown and local authorities and certain statutory companies.

    OPTICAL AND OPHTHALMIC TREATMENT.
    Mr. BLUNDELLasked the Minister of Health the difference between optical treatment, which was previously allowed to be given as an additional benefit under the Health Insurance Acts, and ophthalmic treatment, as now allowed?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The difference is that with the new definition of the benefit it has been possible to make arrangements whereby an insured person is in a position to obtain the advice of an ophthalmic specialist when it is required in the opinion of his medical practitioner. Under the previous definition it was a matter of doubt how far this could be done.

    ILLEGAL OPERATIONS.
    Colonel DAYasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the growing increase in the number of charges against persons accused of performing illegal operations; and will he consider the introduction of legislation that will empower local authorities to provide the necessary knowledge of birth-control methods to working-class mothers?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I have consulted the Secretary of State, who has no evidence of any growing increase in the number of charges. There has, in fact, been a substantial decrease since 1919. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to the hon

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    Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) on the 11th June.

    HEALTH VISITOR, DORSET COUNTY COUNCIL.
    Mr. G. HURSTasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Dorset County Council is advertising for a health visitor at a salary of £148 a year, out of which the person appointed has to contribute £7 15s. a year towards the superannuation funds and to find her own bicycle; and whether, seeing that this salary, with its yearly increments, is far below the normal scale, he will draw this council's attention to the effect of its action upon the standard of trained nurses likely to be attracted into the public health service?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes. Sir, I am in communication with the county council on the subject.

    VENEREAL DISEASE COMMITTEE (EVIDENCE).
    Mr. SNELLasked the Minister of Health whether Colonel Harrison, a permanent official of the Ministry of Health, was acting under instructions when, at the recent Congress of the Royal Institute of Public Health, held at Brighton, he prevented Dr. Wansey Bayley, the honorary secretary of the Society for the Prevention of Venereal Diseases, from quoting evidence which was given before the Trevethin Committee, on the ground that such evidence was confidential; whether this evidence was, in fact, confidential; and will he undertake that permanent officials of his Department, except when acting under his instructions, will not prevent valuable information on important health subjects from being given to the public by competent medical men?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No instructions in this matter were given to the officer referred to. As regards the second part of the question, I am informed that no pledge was given to witnesses before the Trevethin Committee that their evidence would be regarded as confidential and not published, but the evidence has not been published and was not available to members of the congress, and its chair-
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    man ruled that quotations from such evidence would be out of order. I am unable to accept the implication conveyed in the last part of the question.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS (CERTIFICATES).
    Sir J. MARRIOTTasked the Minister of Health whether he has received from local authorities representations as to the expense imposed upon applicants for old age pensions by demands for the production of birth and marriage certificates; and whether he has considered the possibility of closer inter-communication between registrars and pensions committees with a view of minimising expense to the applicants?
    Mr. WOMERSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the hardship caused to applicants for old age pensions by reason of their being required to pay the full fee for a, copy of their certificates of birth or marriage, and also in respect of a search for the same; and will he take into consideration the question of providing for the issue of such certificates to applicants for old age pensions free of cost or at a nominal charge?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply which I gave on the 14th July in answer to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member for South Portsmouth (Sir H. Cayzer).

    GUARDIANS' MEETINGS (LICENSED PREMISES).
    Mr. WHITELEYasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Sedgefield Board of Guardians are holding their meetings on licensed premises, although protests have been made on account of there being other accomodation; and, seeing that it is contrary to Section 61 of the Local Government Act, 1894, what steps does he intend to take in the matter.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have been informed that the meetings of a committee of this board of guardians have been held on licensed premises. There may be some doubt whether this action is contrary to the enactment cited, which applies to meetings of the board of

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    guardians itself, but the arrangement is certainly an undesirable one, and I am so informing the guardians.

    DEATHS FROM STARVATION, BERKSHIRE.
    The following question stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. R. RICHARDSON:
    "24. To ask the Minister of Health whether, when he found that the starvation deaths in Berkshire were about five times as many in proportion to population as those of the rest of the provinces, he made any investigation or tried to find out why there was so great a preponderance of cases in Berkshire; whether the Local Government Board or the Ministry of Health made any and, if so, what efforts to stop them or reduce them in the future; and, if they made any efforts, where and when did they do so."
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: May I call your attention, Sir, to the fact that this question contains an imputation which, as far as personal inquiries show, has no foundation? Will it be in order to ask the Minister what is the justification for this question, and if the deaths referred to are not those of tramps, and not people belonging to the county?
    Mr. SPEAKER: If the question be asked later on, the hon. Member can ask a supplementary question.
    The question was put on the second round by Mr. JENKINS (for Mr. R. RICHARDSON):
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As the hon. Member is aware, inquiries were made into all the cases which he mentions. In no case which arose in the county of Berkshire was there any ground for suggesting that the death was due to a failure of Poor Law administration. No special investigation was made on the lines which he suggests. I would point; out that the total number of deaths from starvation or of deaths accelerated by privation in Berkshire in the seven years 1908-14 was nine, and no general comparison with the rest of the country could reasonably be based on such a very small number of cases.

    INSURANCE COMPANIES (PENSION SCHEMES).
    Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Health if he is
    1522
    aware that a number of insurance companies already have adequate pension schemes for their employés, including provision for widows and dependants and that these are already in operation or. a more generous scale than that proposed in the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill; and if it is intended to make it possible for these persons to obtain exemption from the provisions of the said Bill?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The power to grant exception from the provisions of the Contributory Pensions Bill is, in effect, limited to the permanent employés of local or public authorities and statutory companies, and there is no intention of extending this power to the employés of insurance or any other non-statutory companies. Where, however, any of these companies have superannuation schemes providing benefits corresponding to the benefits secured by the Bill, the new Clause after Clause 26 which has been added to the Bill in Committee will facilitate the modification of the schemes so far as they affect persons who will be insured under the Bill.

  HOUSING.

    WEDNESBURY SCHEME.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet sanctioned the scheme of the Wednesbury Borough Council for the erection of houses on the recreation ground appropriated for this purpose; and, if not, what is the reason for the delay?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The proposals of the town council for the erection of houses on the site referred to were approved on the 6th April last. I understand that some difficulty has arisen between the contractor and the corporation as to the terms of the contract, and I have arranged a conference with the parties.
    Mr. SHORT: Is the delay due to the action of the Department of the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir; I understand the delay is due to a difficulty between the contractor and the corporation.
    Mr. SHORT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say, if it is not due to his Depart-

    1523
    merit, why it is necessary for him to interfere?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know that it is necessary, but I am using my good offices to try to overcome the difficulty.

    WEIR HOUSES.
    Mr. JAMES HUDSONasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that houses of the Telford, Atholl and Wilde types are constructed with a steel framework and are made largely of steel, whilst the Weir house is constructed mainly of wood, the last named can in future be described appropriately so as to avoid confusion in the minds of the public?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: The extent to which steel is used in the construction of the houses to which the hon. Member refers no doubt varies with the particular type, but the general description of steel houses is, I think, sufficiently convenient and is well understood.

    TRADE DISPUTE, EAST HULL.
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that a dispute between the plumbers and the heating engineers has held up the erection of a large number of houses on the East Hull housing site for some weeks; and whether, in view of the fact that it is in the public interest that these houses should be erected as soon as possible, he will endeavour to effect a settlement of this dispute?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I am aware of the dispute to which my hon. Friend refers, and my Department is in touch with the organisations concerned with a view to promoting a settlement.

    FERRYHILL STATION, COUNTY DURHAM.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there were some houses built at Chilton Lane, Ferry-hill Station, County Durham, on which the subsidy was paid over three months ago, and two of the houses are still un-tenanted waiting for a purchaser to buy them; and will he consider the desirability of withholding the subsidy on houses until they are likely to be occupied?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have made inquiries and gather that the two houses to which the hon. Member refers have been sold and will be occupied shortly.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    BENEFIT DISALLOWED.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Samuel Payton, residing at 1, Old Cross Street, Tipton, having had his unemployment benefit disallowed by the Tipton Employment Exchange, applied to the Dudley Board of Guardians for relief; that the board offered him a ticket to go into the workhouse; that Payton is an ex-service man with a wife and two children dependent upon him: and whether he will inquire into this case?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has not been called to this case; but, as the hon. Member is aware, the grant of out-door relief in individual cases is a matter for the discretion of the board of guardians after full consideration of the circumstances of the particular case.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Norwich Employment Exchange has refused further unemployed pay to Mr. C. G. Chead, on the around that ho is an organiser for the unemployed; and whether instructions have been given to Employment Exchanges to refuse unemployment benefit to those who take part in organising the unemployed?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am having inquiries made regarding this case, as described in the hon. Member's question and in a letter received this morning which he has been good enough to send me. I will inform the hon. Member of the result.
    Colonel DAY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a similar case has just happened in Southwark, where a man who was taken off the unemployment register there applied to the guardians for relief and was refused, and, as his children were crying for food, he committed suicide this week, and is being buried only to-day?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, Sir. I am not aware of that case, nor do I think it arises on this question.
    Colonel DAY: Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries?
    Mr. BETTERTON: If the hon. and gallant Member will either write to me or put down a question, I will, of course, inquire into it.

    UNEMPLOYMENT FUND (EXCHEQUER CONTRIBUTION).
    Mr. LIVINGSTONEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what charges will fall on the Budget of 1926-27 in respect of the Exchequer contribution to unemployment insurance?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): The estimated Exchequer contribution to the Unemployment Fund for the current year is £13,105,000. The additional charges to be incurred in 1926–27 are dependent on the decisions taken on the Bill now before Parliament and the course of unemployment, as to which I would refer the hon. Member to the Report of the Government Actuary on the Bill.

    CIVIL RESEARCH COMMITTEE.
    Mr. DALTONasked the Prime Minister whether the Civil Research Committee has under consideration any aspects of the unemployment problem and, if so, what; and whether the Committee has yet made any proposals for action?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Bald-win):No, Sir; but the question of unemployment is clearly an important factor in the consideration of the position of the- iron and steel industry on which the Committee is at present engaged.

    CHEMICAL UK FUSE TIP, WEDNESBU.RY.
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Messrs. Chance and Hunt, chemical manufacturers, Wednesbury, deposit chemical refuse on a tip near their works; that the tip is open to the public, and that certain children have suffered injury by being burnt about the feet; and will he exercise his powers to arrange for the tip to be fenced?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am inform.nl that this refuse is tipped on private
    1526
    land, and that there is no danger to anyone unless he is trespassing. I have no authority to direct that the tip be fenced, and it seems doubtful whether it would be reasonable to expect this to be done, but I am communicating with the town council on the subject.

    TURKISH GUARANTEED LOAN, 1855.
    Major KINDERSLEYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what was the total amount of revenue for 1924-25 applicable to meeting the charge for interest on the Turkish Four Per Cent. Guaranteed Loan of 1855; and was there any surplus remaining after meeting such interest; and, if so, how much did the surplus amount to;
    (2) if he will give a list of the securities amounting to £642,400 nominal, representing the investment of the accumulated surplus which has arisen from the funds allotted to the payment of the interest on the Turkish Guaranteed Loan of 1855?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The contributions received in 1924–25 were insufficient to cover the interest on the guaranteed loan; the remainder of the question does not therefore arise. I do not think it is desirable to state, in what precise securities the, past surpluses are invested.

    TRADE AND INDUSTRY (BALFOUR COMMITTEE).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Prime Minister if the Committee on Trade and Industry has yet submitted any Reports to the Government?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I have been asked to reply. My hon. Friend will be aware that the Survey of Overseas Markets which the Committee have-prepared was published yesterday. The Prime Minister has also received a memorandum from the Committee on the subject of Transport Development and Cotton growing in East Africa, which it is proposed to lay before Parliament and to publish shortly.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the information available at the Vote Office?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, because it is a Stationery Office pub-

    1527
    lication; but in accordance with the ordinary practice, the hon. Member can find it in the Pink Paper regularly sent round, and he can obtain it by return of post on application.

    NAVAL ARMAMENTS (CONFERENCE).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether he has considered farther the question of inviting the principal naval powers to a further conference on naval armaments: and whether any communication has been received from, or sent to, the President of the. United States of America on this subject?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): As regards the first part of the question I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement made in this House by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the 34th June, that if the question of a further conference on naval disarmament was to be treated separately from that fo a conference on land disarmament it would seem best that the initiative should come from the Power which summoned the Washington Conference. The answer with regard to the second part of the question is in the negative.

  AGRICULTURE.

    SUGAR-BEET CROP (CASUAL LABOUR).
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is conferring with the Minister of Labour and the National Farmers' Union in order to ensure an adequate supply of casual labour for work on the, sugar-beet crop?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Edward Wood): I presume my hon. Friend is referring to labour which will be required for the lifting of the sugar beet crop. I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend on this question and I am inviting representatives of the factories and of the National Farmers' Union to consider what steps can usefully be taken to provide for labour over and above what is available locally.

    LAND DRAINAGE SCHEMES.
    Mr. HURDasked the Minister of Agriculture how much agricultural land, distinguishing arable from pasture, has been drained under the grants scheme since the War; what is the further acreage which it is estimated should be drained in the national interest; and whether, in order to prevent the dispersion of adapted labour and to save expense, an announcement of the Government's policy will be made in the immediate future?
    Mr. WOOD: As the reply is rather long, I propose, with my hon. Friend's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. HURD: Does my right hon. Friend realise the necessity of an early decision in this matter, and an early announcement, if the object is not to be frustrated?
    Mr. WOOD: Yes, I can assure my hon. Friend that I am quite alive to that, and I hope to make an announcement very soon.
    Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that prohibitive prices are being charged for this drainage work, and, seeing that it is part of the Government's programme to stop profiteering, will they apply that to drainage and so assist landowners to drain their land?
    Mr. WOOD: I do not think that that arises out of the question, but perhaps my Noble Friend will await the announcement I have promised.
    Following is the reply:
    The area of land which has been benefited by the land drainage schemes for the alleviation of unemployment carried out with the add of grants from the Ministry is estimated as follows:

    1921–2

    …

    …

    342,000 acres

    1922–3

    …

    …

    913,000

    1923–4

    …

    …

    727,000

    Information as regards 1924–5 is not yet available.
    It is not possible to distinguish the area of pasture and arable land separately, and in a number of cases the same areas have derived benefit from schemes carried out in different years.
    I regret that I am unable to give an estimate of the area of land which would benefit from drainage- works, but no doubt it is considerable.
    As regards the last part of the question, I hope soon to be able to make an announcement.

    ROYAL AIR FORCE (CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES).
    Major HORE-BELISHAasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, seeing that children's allowances are stopped in addition to marriage allowance when an airman refuses to live with his wife, through no fault on the wife's part, but are payable to a guardian other than the wife, whereas it was obviously not the intention of the Regulation to penalize a- mother who is better qualified to look after her children than any guardian, he will take steps to confer with the other Service Departments concerned with a view to modifying this Regulation?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Major Sir Philip Sassoon): The question of modifying the Regulation referred to by the hon. and gallant Member has already been considered by the Inter-Departmental Committee which deals with such questions, and it was found that there were difficulties in the way of admitting marriage allowance in these cases. The question is being further considered, however, and I will let the hon. and gallant Member know whether it is found possible to modify the present Regulation in any respect.

    FOREIGN-BUTLT STEAMSHIPS.
    Mr. COUPERasked the President of the Board of Trade the tonnage and value of the 71 steamers constructed for British owners on the Continent during the past three years?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Of the 71 ships built on the Continent and placed on the British register during the last three years, 42, with a gross tonnage of 02,898 tons, were steamships; 3, with a gross tonnage of 186 tons, were motor ships; and 26, with a gross tonnage of 5,028 tons, were sailing ships. Information as to their value is not available.
    Mr. COUPERasked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a Board of Trade Regulation that British-owned steamers of foreign construction must show in a prominent place an indication of the country of origin?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Even-British ship has to have a certificate of registry, which shows, amongst other things, where the ship was built, but that certificate is generally kept amongst the ship's papers. There is no legal requirement that the country of origin must be prominently marked on a ship.
    Mr. COUPER: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would be useful to have the country of origin marked in a prominent place on the steamer, so that those who travel by it might know whether they are travelling in a British-built ship or in one of foreign construction?
    Mr. HARRIS: Would it be a good thing to advertise foreign shipbuilding in this country?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think there are a good many considerations on both sides in regard to the suggestion.

    MIXED ARBITRAL TRIBUNALS.
    Major KINDERSLEYasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, with a view to safeguarding the interests of British nationals in the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunals in Berlin and London and seeing that the German Government through its officials watches the interests of German nationals in these tribunals, he will make similar arrangements for British nationals?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: My hon. and gallant Friend appears to be under a misapprehension. The British Government Agents are always in attendance at the sittings of the Anglo-German Mixed Arbitral Tribunal in London, in order that they may represent the views of the British Clearing Office and safeguard the interests of British nationals. There is no division of the tribunal sitting in Berlin.
    Major KINDERSLEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that great dissatisfaction has been caused by certain recent

    1531
    decisions of these tribunals, which appear to be based upon no established rule of English law?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I really am not in a position to criticise the decisions of an international Court established under the Peace Treaty.

    INSURANCE INDUSTRY (WHITLEY COUNCIL).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the National Organisation of the Insurance Clerical Staffs has approached the insurance companies requesting that a committee of inquiry be set up to consider the question of a Whitley Council for the insurance industry; can he state the present position of the negotiations; and if he will use his good offices to assist in a Whitley Council being set up for the insurance industry?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I assume that the hon. and gallant Member refers to the Guild of Insurance Officials. I am aware of the approach made by the guild to the companies, but I understand that this organisation is not fully representative of the employés of the companies. As the hon. and gallant Member is aware. Joint Industrial Councils can only be established by the voluntary agreement of organisations representing the majority of employers and employed, and I do not think that at present there is any useful action that, I can take.

    RIFLE RANGE, DOVER CLIFFS (DAMAGE BY BULLETS).
    Mr. W. BAKERasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that while the sailing yacht "Noresca" was in the Channel ea6t of Dover on Saturday last she was struck by several bullets which apeared to come from the military rifle range on the cliffs; and whether he proposes to take special precautions to prevent this danger in future?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King): My attention had not previously been called to this incident. I am having it inquired into, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

    BRITISH SUBJECTS, RHINELAND (REPATRIATION).
    Major COHENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that a large number of British subjects, including a considerable proportion of ex-service men and their dependants, have, during the last few years, taken up positions of employment in the Rhineland, directly or indirectly connected with the Army of Occupation, he will inform the House what steps His Majesty's Government proposes to take to provide for the repatriation of these persons in the event of the withdrawal of the British Army of Occupation from the Rhineland?
    Mr. McNEILL: If my hon. and gallant Friend will supply me with more detailed particulars of the cases which he has in mind, I shall be happy to go into the matter.

    PRODUCTION COSTS INVESTIGATORS, UNITED. STATES.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Secretary of State or Foreign Affairs whether any reply his been sent to the request of the United States Government that diplomatic immunities should be granted to investigators sent by it to study the production casts of private concerns in this country; and, if so, the general character of the reply?
    Mr. McNEILL: A reply has been sent to the United States Government in which His Majesty's Government express regret at being unable- to accede to the request that diplomatic status should be accorded to the representatives of the Customs Division of the United States Treasury Department.

  CHINA.

    BRITISH MISSIONARIES (PROTECTION).
    Colonel MORDENasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps are being taken to protect British missionaries and their families in China; and has his attention been called to the recent outrages committed on the Rev. Dr. Murdoch MacKenzie and his associate as well as two women missionaries?
    Mr. McNEILL: The Chinese authorities have been reminded of their responsibility for the safety of British subjects in China, and His Majesty's Consular officers and naval forces in China will afford British subjects all the protection in their power. As regards the latter half of the question, I am glad to be able to inform the hon. and gallant Member that all the missionaries referred to have arrived safely at Swatow, but I have not yet received an official report on the outrages.
    Colonel MORDEN: Would it not be possible for the Foreign Office to issue an official statement when these outrages take place, instead of leaving the public to depend upon newspaper reports? In this case Dr. MacKenzie happens to be my brother-in-law, but there are thousands of people in this country who are left in suspense after reading the newspaper reports, whereas an official statement from the Foreign Office would relieve their anxiety.
    Mr. McNEILL: As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, the whole condition of affaire in China, at the present moment is both complicated and difficult, and I could not possibly give an answer at this moment with regard to any announcement of news, which has to be verified to a certain extent before it is officially issued.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Does not the trouble arise because the Chinese authorities are practically powerless?

    CASUALTIES (COMPENSATION).
    Mr. SAKLATVALAasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any request for compensation for Chinese killed and wounded was included in the demands presented by the Peking Government; whether he will state the number of Chinese killed and wounded; and the total of the Boxer indemnity and the number of lives for which this compensation was obtained?
    Mr. McNEILL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, although the version first received omitted any reference to such a request. As already stated in reply to the hon. Member for Leicester West on the 15th June last, the number of Chinese killed and wounded was 21 and 65, respectively.
    1534
    The total of the Boxer Indemnity was 450,000,000 taels (£67,500,000). This sum did not represent only compensation for lives lost, but repayment of the expenditure incurred by the Powers in restoring order, as well as an equitable indemnity for the companies and individuals, including Chinese in foreign employment, who suffered in consequence of the Boxer outbreak.
    Mr. SAKLATVALA: Would the British Government have paid the indemnity promptly if the Chinese Foreign Office had adopted the same method as the British Foreign Office adopted towards Egypt?
    Mr. McNEILL: I could not give that as an undertaking.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    OFFICERS' MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE.
    Mr. BOOTHBYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now make a statement on the subject of marriage allowances for naval officers?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): No. Sir.
    Mr. B00THBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that ho will continue to press the Cabinet in this matter, and even adopt a menacing attitude if necessary?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I adopt the attitude which I think is most likely to succeed.
    Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-C0OKE: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the First Lord of the Admiralty on three occasions made a statement on this subject, and that, therefore, the Cabinet must know what that statement is, and is ho prepared to abide by that statement, for his own sake?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Yes, Sir.
    Major HORE-BELISHA: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this subject is causing almost as much anxiety to naval officers as it is to him, and that they express the view that it would be better to give a clear-cut decision one way or the other, seeing that the money has been voted?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Yes, Sir; I am quite aware of that.

    ESTIMATES.
    Commander BELLA1RSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the approximate difference in the cost of the Navy Estimates provided in 1914 and 1925, exclusive of the air arm, after allowance has been made for the rise in prices and wages and the non-effective Vote "has been deducted, so as to make a true pre-War comparison?
    Mr. BR1DGEMAN: The provision in the Navy Estimates for the current year, exclusive of the Grant-in-Aid of the Fleet Air Arm and of the cost of non-effective services, is £51,049,200. If the amount thus provided were calculated on the basis of pre-War prices and wages, it is estimated that the figure would be approximately .£31,860,000, which is £15,900,000 less than the provision made for corresponding services in the Estimates for 1914–15.

    ALIEN HOTEL EMPLOYES.
    Captain GARRO-JONESasked the Home Secretary in how many cases his test investigations of alien hotel employés' papers in the last three years have revealed irregularities in the method of entering or remaining in this country?
    Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON: No detailed particulars as to any such irregularities on the part of alien hotel employés are available; but I may say that such special inquiries as have been made tend to show that, generally speaking, alien employés at hotels are in order so far as the Regulations applicable to aliens are concerned.

    UNCLASSIFIED ROADS (GRANTS).
    Mr. BARKERasked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the increase of traffic on unclassified roads repairable by district councils, he will extend the principle of contributions hitherto limited to classified roads by making grants out of the Road Fund?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): Without admitting that the principle governing the distribution of grants towards the ordinary maintenance and improvement of Class I and Class II roads can be extended to unclassified roads, I am considering whether
    1536
    additional assistance can be given from the Road Fund towards the expenditure on unclassified roads, supplementing the grants already made.
    Mr. MARCH: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it essential that the local authorities should get some assistance for unclassified roads, especially when Class I and Class II roads are so much under repair, causing the traffic to-run on unclassified roads?
    Colonel ASHLEY: As I have already-said, I am considering that, and have been for some weeks.
    Sir J. NALL: Will my right hon. Friend consider whether the time has arrived when third-class loads should be scheduled, so that a regular grant may be made for them?
    Colonel ASHLEY: That is one proposal, but I think that what the local authorities really want is something to deal with their present unclassified roads, and that they do not much mind in what form it comes.
    Sir J. NALL: Dors not this problem in reference to unclassified roads largely arise because there are no Class III roads?

    TRANSJORDAN.
    Mr. HARRISasked the. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the town of Akaba has been recognised as Egyptian territory: and whether the principal Allied Powers have been consulted in reference to the alteration of the frontier of Trans jordania?
    Mr. McNEILL: Although between 1841 and 1892 the Porte permitted the establishment of Egyptian police posts at certain places on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Akaba, including Akaba itself, for the protection of Egyptian pilgrims, the Sultan resumed possession of these posts in 1892 and no objection was raised from the Egyptian side. The line dividing the territories under Egyptian and Turkish administration respectively was defined in 1906 by a boundary commission and has not since been modified. Akaba lies a few miles to the east of this line. In reply to the second part of the question, the formal definition of the

    1537
    frontiers of Transjordan with the Hedjaz and Nejd has still to take place, as stated by the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the 6th of July. A definition of these frontiers will eventually be communicated to the League of Nations. No consultation of the principal Allied Powers has taken place or is required.

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BRITISH DELEGATION).
    Mr. MacDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who are to go to Geneva in September to attend the Assembly of the League of Nations as representatives of Great Britain.
    Mr. McNEILL: His Majesty's Government will be represented by the Foreign Secretary: Lord Cecil of Chelwood; Sir George Grahame, G.C.V.O., His Majesty's Ambassador at Brussels; Duchess of Atholl; Mr. A. M. Samuel and Sir Cecil Hurst, K.C.B.

    CASUAL WARDS (TASKS).
    Mr. JENKINSasked the Minister of Health if he has any information showing that any of the Poor Law inspectors have interfered to prevent unfit tasks being given to casuals; and, if so, when, where and under what circumstances?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no Reports of cases of this kind having come before the inspectors of the Department.

    SHAREHOLDERS' RETAIL PURCHASES.
    Mr. MAXTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the practice adopted by some limited liability companies whereby their shareholders are given cards entitling them to purchase the company's goods in retail shops 20 per cent, cheaper than the general public may purchase; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take to recover Income Tax upon these dividends not disclosed in balance-sheets
    Mr. GUINNESS: My attention had not previously been called to the practice to which the hon. Member refers, but I do not think that the transactions which he describes could be held to involve liability to Income Tax on the part of the shareholders. A saving effected by the purchase of goods on favourable terms does not create a taxable profit, and in this connection I would point out to the hon. Member that it is not sought to charge Income Tax on the so-called dividends (or "discounts") on purchases which a co-operative society distributes to its members.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the very great difference between the societies he mentions, and limited liability companies. The societies have not a limited share capital, but the companies have.
    Mr. GUINNESS: It does not arise on that. It arises on the individual transactions.
    Captain GARRO JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that in the case of a departmental store it would be possible for a, shareholder to spend up to nine-tenths of his income in that store? Does not that call for some special step?
    Mr. GUINNESS: That would not prevent his paying Income Tax on ten-tenths of his income.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: If he was allowed to buy at 20 per cent. less than outside people, that is fully equivalent to income.

    SILK DUTY (PERSONAL LUGGAGE).
    Mr. MORRISasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the wife and children of an elector in the Bradford East Division, in returning recently from a short summer holiday spent in Guernsey, had their personal luggage held up at Weymouth by the Customs authorities, who demanded payment of duty on silk dresses and blouses and a baby's overall, although the dresses and blouses were in fact bought in Bradford two 3'ears ago; and whether he will give instructions, without delay, to have the goods forwarded to the owner in Bradford?
    Mr. GUINNESS: I am informed that no personal luggage has been detained at Weymouth. A package containing clothing addressed to a consignee in Bradford was imported in the ordinary way as ships' cargo and entered with the Customs by the Great Western Railway as the importer's agent. The railway company ascertained on inquiry of the consignee that the clothing consisted of old personal effects, except for one overall, which had been bought as a present. All the contents were at once released by the Customs without charge to duty, except the overall, which was necessarily kept back pending payment of the duty to which it is liable.
    Mr. MORRIS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the husband and wife went over to Guernsey for a holiday from Bradford, taking their clothing with than, and among that clothing were silk articles, and that when they returned, they were asked to pay Silk Duty upon goods which they had taken out?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is exactly the? question which is on the Paper.
    Mr. MORRIS: This is a journey to Guernsey by these people and not the question answered by the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. GUINNESS: If they had brought these articles back as personal luggage, this small duty of Is. which has been claimed would not have been demanded. Where personal effects are shipped, not as luggage, but as in this case as ships' cargo, the concession given in respect of passenger's luggage accompanying the passenger, does not apply.
    Mr. MORRIS: Is the. right hon. Gentleman aware that in this case the goods were brought back as personal luggage by the wife? They were personal articles bought at Bradford. and brought back as personal luggage
    Mr. GUINNESS: I will gladly look into the matter, but that is not the information which has reached me.

    NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
    Commander WILLIAMSasked the Prime Minister whether, in the interests of national economy, he will appoint a committee of
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    business men from all parties in the House with full powers to examine the administration and expenditure of Government Departments, with a view to recommending to the Cabinet material reductions in expenditure?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have already appointed a Cabinet Committee in accordance with the declarations which have been made to the House. A good deal of material has already been assembled by the Treasury, and tie work will proceed without delay. I do not consider an additional inquiry by outside persons would help us.
    Sir J. NALL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of the Bills at present before the House, apart altogether from the Pensions Bill, involve further expenditure, in some cases unnecessary, by the Departments?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is true, but I am also aware that a large number of Members have been voting lately for further expenditure.
    Sir J. NALL: In order to make a serious effort towards securing economy, will further money spending Bills not be introduced?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I could give that undertaking.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, in regard to his demand for business men, that what are needed (for sensible men.

    SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRY (FABRIC GLOVES).
    Mr. HARRISasked the President of the Board of Trade whether a decision has been made on the Report of the glove inquiry; and, if not, when a decision may be expected?
    Sir P. CUNLFFE-LISTER: I am not at present in a position to make any statement on this matter.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. MacDONALD: Can the Prime Minister say what business is proposed to be taken to-morrow and next week?
The PRIME MINISTER: To-morrow we shall consider the Summer Time Bill, and, if time permit, a number of small Bills—the Public Works Loans Bill; Sandwich Port and Haven Bill; Wireless Telegraphy (Explanation) Bill; Guardianship of Infants Bill; Summary Jurisdiction (Separation and Maintenance) Bill: Therapeutic Substances Bill [Lords]; Diseases of Animals Bill; Tithe [Money] Resolution, Committee.
Monday, Supply, Committee — Post Office Vote.
Tuesday and Wednesday—Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill, Report and Third Beading.
Thursday, Supply, Committee—Board of Education Vote.
Friday, The business will be announced later.
Mr. STEPHEN: Can the Prime Minister say whether he intends to take the Scottish Rent Restrictions Bill, Second Reading, this Session?
The PRIME MINISTER: I must ask for notice of that question.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [13th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair,]
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1925–26.
  ADMIRALTY OFFICE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a. sum, not exceeding £1,246,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expenses of the Admiralty Office, Which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926."
  Sir JOHN SIMON: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
  This Motion has been put on the Paper in order to call the attention of the Committee and of the country to the scale of Naval expenditure, both actual and prospective, and to invite the Government to make a statement as to the principles upon which they consider that expenditure should be regulated. I am aware that the Prime Minister announced a day or two ago that it would not be possible to-day to reveal the precise proposals which, after this long period of incubation, the Cabinet will, presumably, some day be able to announce. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) in a Supplementary Question, suggested that if that were the case, the debate to-day would be premature.
  Commander BELLAIRS: I said "ridiculous."
  Sir J. SIMON: I do not take that view. The hon. and gallant Member must make up his mind whether he thinks that Parliamentary discussion is a good thing before matters are decided, or whether he prefers to postpone Parliamentary discussion until after things have been decided. If the House of Commons is merely to register the decision of the Government, I agree that Parliamentary debate at this stage is unnecessary, though I do not think it is more ridiculous or as ridiculous as Parliamentary debate after an announcement has been made. On the other hand if, as I hold,
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  a Cabinet decision should be a decision of the Executive after Parliamentary consultation and debate, then I do claim that the time when it is useful to have such debate is before rather than after a decision has been arrived at. If I thought that the majority that was returned to support the Government was going to resist the Government proposals, according to the size of the building programme which they produced, I might take a different view; but I am not aware that the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone, who thinks that this debate is ridiculous, is prepared to tell me of any naval construction which he pledges himself in advance to resist.
  The position is anomalous, because when last March the First Lord of the Admiralty presented his Estimates he explained that, large as the figure was—not less than £60,500,000 to be spent in the year—it did not include any provision. for the announcement of any new construction. If that is so, it cannot be because there has been any delay on the part of the Board of Admiralty in putting forward their proposals. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has been careful to lead the House to believe, in an answer he gave, that whatever the explanation may be of the failure to make an announcement hitherto—here we are in the middle of July—the blame does not in the least degree rest upon the Board of Admiralty, which he represents. I have no doubt that that is true. Even now, certainly up to the last few hours, this is an unsettled question. It is unsettled because the Admiralty on the one hand and the Treasury on the other have taken different points of view, and, as the Prime Minister told us only yesterday, the Cabinet—the united Cabinet of which he is the head—has not yet been able to make any public announcement, If the Cabinet could not settle the matter and announce its conclusions before now, there must be, even in the informed authoritative circles from which the members of the Cabinet are drawn, a body of opinion which is resisting the demands of the Board of Admiralty. That being so, I claim that it is a perfectly proper and very useful function of the House of Commons to consider what are the principles upon which a decision ought to be based, and to ask the Government to toll us how far they intend to put these principles into practice.

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  In approaching such a question, the principle for which we ought to stand is neither a ready acquiescence in any naval expenditure proposed, nor a resistance on merely abstract grounds to any naval expenditure that is suggested. There are people in this House and in the country who, either because of their political associations or because of the way in which they regard the enormous service which the British Navy renders to the peace and security of the world, are naturally tempted, when they hear a, proposal from the Government bench relating to naval expenditure, to accept it without very narrow scrutiny. I do not in the least blame them. It is a point of view which is perfectly natural and highly honourable. I do not by any means limit that point of view to the dockyard members who have, of course, their particular domestic difficulties. There is another set of people in this House and outside who, whenever they hear proposals for naval expenditure, are tempted to take up an attitude of opposition on merely abstract grounds. They may be moral grounds, they may be philosophical grounds, they may be grounds that are based on very high principles, and most sincerely held, but, still, their opposition is almost instinctive, and has very little to do with the merits of the particular proposal under discussion.
  I try to set for myself, and I think other hon. Members should set for themselves, a resolve to take up neither one attitude nor the other, but, rather, to say that our principle is that naval armaments should be reduced, and that they should be reduced to the lowest point consistent with national safety. Of course, when I use that phrase I am using the actual phrase of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and it has to be remembered, therefore, that this country is pledged to that point of view, and that if we exceed that figure we are in fact ourselves engaged in breaking the Covenant, and, of course, making the whole scheme of the League of Nations look ridiculous. The question, therefore, which I wish to ask, and to which I hope to get an answer from the Government Benches, is this. The principle to which we are committed is that the nations of the world—in this matter we rightly claim pride of place—should pro-
  1560
  ceed on the basis that naval armaments should be reduced to the lowest point consistent with the national safety. I want, therefore, to ask whether the Government, which accepts that principle in words, is really addressing itself to the application of that principle in practice.
  As I said, the dockyard Members have a very special concern in some aspects of this matter, and so far from complaining of it I think it would be greatly to the advantage of the Committee that the concern that they feel as to their own constituencies should be most firmly expressed. It is a concern which is not by any means limited to dockyard Members. If I may refer to my hon. and gallant Friend behind me the Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha), he has more than once in this House, and also out of it, pointed out that the anxiety of the dockyard towns in the presence of very widespread unemployment cannot always and ever be met by the laying down of new ships of war, but that we ought to endeavour, and the Government ought to endeavour, to find ways in which that labour may be employed, and that skill taken advantage of, in other or analogous directions, if indeed national and international considerations do not justify naval buildings.
  May I give an example from another country? Krupps was before the War an immense arsenal turning out. with the assistance of tens of thousands of men, material not only for the equipment of the army but of the navy as well. Krupps, as such, is dead and, if my information is even reasonably accurate, they have in Krupps' works—having been compelled by the Treaty of Versailles to cease the manufacture of instruments of war of any kind—transformed and made use of an organisation and enterprise and an immense manual skill, which previously had been devoted to building engines of destruction, in ways which do take advantage of the special attainments of the persons concerned. I cannot help thinking that it is a counsel of despair which we are addressing to these unfortunate people in dockyard towns if we tell them that, no matter what the circumstances are, they are condemned to be unemployed unless indeed we continue to build, and to promote schemes of new

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  naval construction. If indeed we are always to replace everything that wears out, if we are never to face the possibility of a man who has previously been employed directly or indirectly in producing instruments of destruction being employed on something else, then it is useless to declare ourselves in favour of a reduction of armaments. Pronouncements in favour of an international reduction of naval strength are nauseating cant if we are going to refuse to contemplate what is the inevitable result of even the smallest succese in carrying through a programme of that kind.
  May I remind the Committee, not from the naval point of view, but from the financial point of view, how matters stand at this moment. I will only trouble the Committee with two or three figures, but they are figures which ought to be kept constantly before everyone who asks questions on economy. An hon. Member on the back benches was putting a question of this sort to the Prime Minister just now. If he is really interested, as no doubt he sincerely is, in schemes for reducing expenditure, will he allow me to ask him what Department of public expenditure do you think that substantial reductions can be secured? The truth is that there are two Departments, and two Departments only, and both of them are related to the subject which we are debating this afternoon. Take, first of all, the expenditure on the armed forces.
  The Navy Estimates this year, apart altogether from any new construction, are £60,500,000. That is a net increase, if you take the three Services together, Army, Navy, and Air Force, over last year's estimates—the Labour party's estimates—of £5,202,000. It is an actual increase in the case of the Navy estimate of £4,700,000; though it is fair to say that, included in that £4,700,000, there is a very large figure, nearly £1,500,000, for the Fleet air arm, which, whatever may be the strategical arguments on the subject, may fairly be debited against the Air Service, as distinguished from the purely Naval Service. The position which I think the Committee must be content to face is that that is a staggering figure in itself. In 1913-14, the last year before the War, at a time when the German Fleet was the
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  enormously powerful and the enormously threatening instrument that it was, the total issue for the Navy was £48,000,000. This year, with the menace of the German Navy completely disappeared, with nothing within reasonable range which can plausibly be said to be a substitute danger, we have under the single head of naval expenditure an addition of £12,000,000 more.
  It may be said that you must have regard to the purchasing power of money, and of course you must. If we look at the matter in a slightly different aspect it appears to me that public expenditure as a whole ought to be the primary concern of every Member of the House of Commons, and if we consider the total amount of national expenditure, we have a Budget of £800,000,000, and the expenditure on local rates is £160,000,000, so that you get this fact that during the year we take from the pockets of the people, whether by Imperial taxes or local rates, £960,000,000, which Sir Josiah Stamp says is one-quarter of the total income of the country. If you contrast that with the position before the War you will find that in 1913 the Budget expenditure was £200,000,000, and the expenditure on rates was something like £79,000,000, and the total was £279,000,000, which was not a quarter of the income of the country for the year, but only one-ninth. We are, therefore, faced with the plain fact that if, indeed, we have to contemplate expenditure on this scale on Army, Navy and Air Force combined, we are laying on the country a burden which, in point of size, is so abnormally great that it is at least doubtful whether even this country can stand it.
  4.0. P.M.
  Take another test. In 1913 for every pound sterling voted under the head of Vote 9, Naval Armaments, 2s. represented administration and 18s. represented the stores account. If we contrast the figures for last year, last year 6s. 6d. of every pound was spent on administration and only 13s. 6d. represented stores accounts. After all, so far as that is really to be explained by the determination to pay a proper wage for services rendered, I do not think that there is or ought to be in any quarter any objection. Since the House of Commons has voted the money for married officers' allowances, I hope

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  the First Lord is going to be able to make an announcement when that money is to be distributed.
  Lieut.-Commander BURNEY: That proportional figure does not include the Vote for new contruction because there has been no new construction.
  Sir J. SIMON: The contrast is none the less a very striking one. The plain truth appears to be—I follow the hon. and gallant Member's point, and I agree that it must be allowed for—when you analyse the expenditure of recent years, that there is the strongest reasons for thinking that the very large sums involved in the Votes are not really represented by materiel, but are largely represented by expenditure under the head of administration. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree that so far I am putting it fairly. That in itself shows a terrible burden, and we are warned by the First Lord, and by rumours in the newspapers, and by the failure of the Government to make an announcement, that this is not the end; and the Prime Minister has pledged himself that at any rate before we separate for the holidays there shall at least be some announcement on further expenditure from the Government.
  I have said that there is a close relation between this naval expenditure and the broad concern for economy at this time which is evidenced in every quarter of the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), on the Third Beading of the Finance Bill, made, if he will allow me to say so, a most striking speech in which he developed this point. He pointed out, as I have ventured to point out, that if you really want economy there are only certain very limited directions in which you can pursue it. One of those, no doubt, is in reducing the annual charge for the debt by creating a financial situation in which you are able to convert loans which are now carrying a high rate of interest into new loans which can be raised at a lower rate of charge. You cannot do that unless you are prepared now to exercise the most iron discipline in controlling the expenditure of the spending Departments in every possible direction. I believe that there are very substantial argu-
  1564
  ments, from the strategic and from the technical point of view, for postponing, rather than hastening, new construction. That is a matter on which the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Oxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney) and many others speak with authority, and on which I do not profess to have any instructive knowledge at all, but any man who uses his brains can see that there are strong reasons for taking that point of view. But whether that be so or not, whether on grounds of naval construction it be a good thing first to make the experiment, or whether, on the whole, it is not better to feel that you are going to use the immense resources of this country for rapid construction at a later period, when you may fairly say that there is a risk or danger, the financial consideration comes into play and the financial consideration is this.
  You cannot relieve the burdens of the people of this country under the head of these tremendous taxes unless you are prepared to address yourself either to expenditure on the Navy, Army or Air Force, or else so to conduct your financial affairs as to reduce the annual charges on the debt. Who is there in the Conservative party opposite, when he talks about economy, really contemplates securing it by cutting down the Social Services? You may be able this year to present an Education Estimate which, I think, is £1,000,000 less than the Estimate last year, but you cannot do that for long, and nobody in this House really thinks that the recovery of the country from tremendous spending is to be got by cutting down expenditure on education. What member of the Conservative party, what member of the Navy League is there, who is prepared to say here in his place, when he talks of his great desire to secure practically a reduction of expenditure, that he really means to reduce it on any social service that he can name?
  Commander BELLAIRS: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that, if expenditure on the Fighting Services be vital to the safety of the country, it must come before the Social Services?
  Sir J. SIMON: That is a very important-argument to consider, but it is not in the smallest degree an answer to my question. It is not the slightest use a man announc-

  1565
  ing that a bomb-proof shelter is so important to him that he is prepared to go bankrupt to get it; and it is no use members of the Conservative party telling the country, or the Conservative Prime Minister, in the King's Speech or in his messages to by-elections, repeating that he is devoted to the cause of national economy, unless he and those who support him are able to face the only possible way in which it can be secured. If the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone will get up and say, "I wish to confess frankly that economy is impossible, and I wish to warn the electors of Maidstone that in future they will spend more and more money; I am not going to commit myself to cutting clown the Social Services, and I take the view that expenditure on the Navy cannot be reduced," let him say so, but do not let him in the next breath say that he is in favour of the reduction of national expenditure, because there is no way, unless you are prepared to face the correlated question of the most searching restriction in expenditure on preparations for possible future wars, and at the same time are prepared to improve the financial position of the country in order to raise money at a lower rate of interest.
  For my part, I say, quite boldly, apart altogether from the restrictions that are placed on this country by the Covenant of the League of Nations, a Covenant which binds us if we are honourable people to make it our business to see that naval expenditure is reduced to the lowest possible point consistent with national safety; apart altogether from the need for developing an international atmosphere which may lead to naval reductions throughout the world; apart altogether, let me add, from the danger of war, because I believe it to be a danger of war which is fostered by naval rivalry; apart altogether from these practical considerations, there is a plain practical reason that we had much better recognise now, the reason which depends on this proposition, that we are bound to conserve our resources to-day rather than provide for distant and problematical risks under the plea that after all, a great Navy is the first desideratum of the civilised State which we are. Let me remind hon. Gentlemen opposite of the language which they applauded in the King's Speech. The King's Speech of last December contained this paragraph:
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  "Every effort will be made to reduce public expenditure to the lowest possible limit consistent with the security and efficiency of the State. The present heavy burdens of the taxpayer are a hindrance to the revival of enterprise and employment Economy in every sphere is imperative if we are to regain our industrial and commercial prosperity."
  I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite cheer that, but I should like to know in what department of expenditure they expect to secure this reduction if they rule out the possibility of a more iron discipline on the subject of naval expenditure. I remember that in his Budget speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that he had in his mind a scheme to reduce expenditure by, at any rate, £10,000,000 a year. What has happened to that scheme? Perhaps the First Lord, as a Member of the Cabinet, will be able to tell us whether the Cabinet has already adopted that scheme. How are you going in future years to reduce expenditure £10,000,000 a year if you increase naval expenditure by this amount and now bring forward a substantial building programme? How is it suggested by anybody it can be done? In future years, not this year, there is to be a State contribution for widows' pensions. It docs not appear in this year's Budget- In future years— indeed, it is already passed—there is to be an addition to the State contribution for unemployment. You have at the moment put forward an Education Estimate which is below the figure of last year, but that cannot last. Therefore, I ask—
  Sir HENRY CRAIK: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman say that efficiency in education and lavish expenditure in education are the same thing?
  Sir J. SIMON: I so entirely agree with my right hon. Friend that I suggest that the same principle might be applied to the British Navy. I am sure that the Committee will see that these really are points of general importance for us all, and that they are questions which legitimately arise in a Debate of this sort. What has happened to the announcement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he had in mind a Committee that was going to overhaul expenditure in blocks? Has it begun with the Board of Admiralty, and, if so, what result has

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  been secured? Those, I know, are general considerations. It is very easy to dismiss them as being merely platitudinous, or as having no close relation to the special technical problems of the day, but I wish to assort, and to claim, that, as a matter of fact, the considerations which ought to govern naval expenditure in this country are not primarily technical considerations at all. I have taken part in, and have attended with the greatest interest, many Debates on Naval Estimates. I always gain great instruction from the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge "(Lieut.-Commander Burney) and the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone, and others, and I am the last man in the world to claim that a mere general interest in a subject is the same thing as having a special and technical knowledge of it—the whole of my life and training repudiates that idea—but I do assert here in the House of Commons that the fundamental question connected with naval expenditure is not a technical question, but is a large question of public policy upon which every Member of the House has to form his own judgment. There was a famous sentence used by the father of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he, in his day, as a Conservative and as a Chancellor of the Exchequer, resisted what he thought to be excessive demands for the fighting Forces. He went to the Carlton Club and wrote to the Prime Minister, Lord Salisbury, a letter, and in that letter Lord Randolph Churchill said:
  "The great question of public expenditure in connection with armaments is not so technical and departmental as might be supposed by a superficial critic. Foreign policy and expenditure on armaments act and react on one another."
  While I thoroughly agree that we have to listen with the greatest respect to those who speak with special knowledge of the risks which the country may be running and of the means by which those risks may be minimised, I altogether dispute that this is a matter which can be handed over to the experts, however eminent, or that the Board of Admiralty itself has any primary authority to decide what we should spend, It is perfectly right that the Board and the right hon. Gentleman should present their demands at the highest possible point—that is what they are there for—but the duty of the Govern-
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  ment and of the House of Commons is to see whether those demands can be related, and how they best can be related, to other demands in competition with them; and, for my part, I am not prepared at this time of day to accept the proposition that, notwithstanding the destruction of the German Navy, notwithstanding the complete inability to tell you against whom we are arming, and notwithstanding the confident assertion after the War was ended that we had got rid of this nightmare for some time, some hypothetical or distant peril justifies an immense expenditure, unless indeed, on a review of all the circumstances, we can afford it
  Turning to the question of cruisers, there are two expressions used about cruiser construction which I have taken occasion before to point out are extremely misleading. I am not going to have a controversy with hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway about the five cruisers. We are only concerned here to see what is to be done now and in the future. It appears to me, first, to be a gross misuse of language to talk about these proposed new cruisers as though they were replacements. They are not replacements in any practical or accurate sense of the term. They are replacements in the sense in which a man who buys a Rolls-Royce car is replacing a worn-out Ford, and in that sense, but in no other sense, are they replacements. The actual class of ship which they were supposed to be replacing, is a class that was scrapped and was off the Navy List before ever these proposals were made. The new type is a type which you may, if you like, call by the same name, but you do not make things the same by calling them the same name. The new class is a class of 10,000 tons mounting 8-inch guns and it is no use the technical authorities on this subject in the House bemusing themselves and trying to mislead us, by talking as though these were mere replacements. This is, in fact, whether right or wrong, a perfectly deliberate policy which will involve the raising of the whole standard of naval expenditure and naval force and it is promoting and must promote an entirely new race in naval armaments.
  There is a second expression sometimes used in this connection by the Admiralty. They not only talk about replacement but about "anticipatory replacement." I remember when the Prime Minister made

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  a famous speech at Plymouth—a very suitable place in which to make it, as the Noble Lady the Member for Sutton (Viscountess Astor) will agree. When the right hon. Gentleman got to Plymouth, which was a very good place to get to for the purpose, he felt the time had come to assert that, even though particular construction might not be immediately needed, he thought it would be right and justified to anticipate construction. In plain English, "anticipatory replacement" means the spending of public money before you need to spend it, on unproductive work which could only be justified if its omission would reduce national armaments below the safety line. I protest against the Admiralty doctrine which seeks to secure that we should accept proposals of this sort, without examining them, under the phrase "anticipatory replacement."
  One other observation which I desire to make on the subject of cruisers is open to be checked by any hon. Member who carefully reads the House of Commons Papers. It is not true that the British Navy in regard to cruisers is notoriously weak. On the contrary, cruisers represent a branch of our Navy in which we are notoriously strong. The present Colonial Secretary, when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, said so in this House with the greatest possible emphasis. If any hon. Member takes the Fleet Return, a very interesting document which comes out each spring, and examines it, he will sec that this statement is true. Any hon. Gentleman who examines this Return of the Fleets of Britain and foreign countries, reads it a little closely and observes its full implications, will see in the first place, that in the case of British vessels, and of British vessels alone, the claim is made that for the purpose of calculating their age one year of war service is equivalent to two years of life. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong, but it is surely a rather curious formula to adopt when in this very same document, in which you are working out comparisons as to the strengths of different navies, you carefully avoid applying any such formula or even any modification of such formula to any other Fleet of any other Power in the world.
  Viscountess ASTOR: They had not the same amount of service.
  Sir J. SIMON: I entirely agree with the Noble Lady, and I do not wish the Committee to think that I am belittling the services of our Fleet. On the contrary, I would be the first to assert that no Fleet in the world did so much. At the same time, I think it a curious method of calculation to say that no French cruiser, no Japanese cruiser, no American cruiser, is to find its age thus artificially extended by any similar or analogous calculation, with the result, for example, that when I am asked to look at the effective strength of Japan in cruisers the Admiralty bring in every cruiser, even those built as long ago as 1910, but when we come to the British cruisers they strike out every cruiser built between 1910 and 1915 in order to get what they think is an analogy. That may be right or wrong, but it has to be borne in mind, and if it is borne in mind what is the result? After you have done that, the actual result, as anyone can see who examines the table, is that in cruisers as a whole this country is extremely strong. If hon. Members turn to page 14 of the "White Paper, excluding those cruisers which are set out in italics, because they were completed before 1915, you get a total of 49 cruisers of the British Empire.
  Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKE: How many are fit?
  Sir J. SIMON: I am only saying that the Admiralty themselves have selected these as being fit cruisers. If the hon. Gentleman who once was a Member for a naval port does not know that—
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It is a fact that the number of cruisers is given as 49, but of these only 20 are fit for protecting commerce.
  Sir J. SIMON: I can only deal with the document which the Admiralty have provided. I can only assume that the Admiralty know what the position is, and when I read the document I find that after you have made the adjustment to which I referred, the fact still remains that you have 49 cruisers which are attributed, as cruisers, to the British Empire, whereas you have in the case of the United States nine built and, I think, one building and eight which are unidentified and are stated to be authorised. In the case of Japan you have 18 built, and I think nine

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  building. Nobody can say on that comparison that it is in cruiser construction that the main need of the British Navy at this moment lies. If you must take the latest type, a type which a year ago was not to be found sailing the seas, when the five cruisers were laid down by the late Government cruisers which approximate to 10,000 tons and with these very powerful guns, built or building, then various calculations may be made, but in substance this conclusion is right. You find of that general type something like 11 cruisers of 10,000 tons in the British Navy, and if you take the four other great Powers signing the Washington Agreement and lump their cruisers into one, against this 11 they can produce eight.
  I do not think the big argument in this Debate is one which can proceed on technicalities of design or construction. I hold most strongly that the consideration which the Committee is bound to give to this subject is based on more general but none the less extremely relevant considerations, and I submit that it is not a question to-day of Britain desiring, at all cost and in all events to spend whatever honourable and upright advisers suggest to be adequate for an undoubtedly paramount need. We are bound to recognise that unless we succeed, somehow or other, in reducing the sum total of expenditure and the burden on the taxpayer, then the country itself is likely to sink while at the very time you may be pursuing, with all good faith, a "big navy" policy. I conclude by asking hon. Gentlemen opposite, knowing that they have so great an admiration for their Prime Minister, to consider for a moment quite seriously the language which the Prime Minister recently used in the letter which he wrote to the League of Nations Union to be read at a meeting last month. The Prime Minister speaks as we all know with gravity and sincerity, and I think on this subject we must pause and consider what is the practical method by which we are going to carry out these aspirations. This is what the Prime Minister wrote:
  "What is required is a new habit of thought in Europe and such habit can be fostered only by patient endeavour and by wise persistence. We may gradually succeed in creating conditions in which disarmament will become a practical proposition, but such achievement will lose value if the nations of Europe have not meanwhile acquired the will to disarm."
  1572
  The practical question before the Committee really is, what steps do we propose to take in relation to naval expenditure to develop a new habit of thought and to promote the will to disarm? It seems to be that, as years go on, the memory of the War, or the sharpness of that memory inevitably recedes. The high hopes, the firm resolves that were then entertained and expressed both during the struggle and at the time of the Armistice are losing their confidence and their emphasis and if, indeed, we are returning to the old way and resuming this frantic race to destruction, then history may well record that the immeasurable sacrifice of those terrible years has been made in vain.
  Admiral Sir ARTHUR HENNIKER-HUGHAN: It is with considerable diffidence I rise to follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. His long experience in this House and his great knowledge, cause me, as a very recent Member, to be nervous in speaking immediately after him. I will venture to say, however, that I thought he was most fair in all his remarks with regard to the wants of the Navy. As a naval officer, I wish to say—and I know other naval officers and others interested in the Navy on this side of the House have the same feeling—that I am just as much interested in economy as any other hon. Member in any part of the Committee. I can also assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there is a Navy Committee, and it has been sitting recently. We have taken very great trouble to endeavour to find out whether we can effect economy in the naval forces, and a scheme has been evolved, which has been forwarded to the higher authorities but about which I am not at liberty to say anything at present. We have endeavoured in this scheme to arrange that sufficient money should be provided for the extra expenditure which we know is required for the Navy. I think nearly all hon. Members on this side in our election addresses proclaimed that we wanted a one-Power standard. It remains for me to endeavour to point out what I consider a one-Power standard should be. The former Conservative Administration laid it down that at least five cruisers were to be laid down yearly for the

  1573
  next 10 consecutive years. They also laid it down that our immediate requirements were eight, but only five have been laid down. I agree with the decision come to by the First Lord of the Admiralty in the last Conservative Administration, that is to say, that eight should have been laid down, and that we require to lay down five for the next 10 consecutive years.
  I have my own table here, which I have made out to the best of my ability, and I make the actual number of cruisers slightly more than the right hon. Gentleman, but that is a small matter. I make our total number of cruisers consist of 52. More than half of these are suffering the effects of the War and are in need of replacement; 18 are over 10 years old, and many will be obsolete during the next 10 years. The right hon. Gentleman alluded to the fact that we had a sort of rule of thumb that one year's war service counted two years' ordinary service. I honestly think that is a very right and fair arrangement. I do not wish, because I happen to belong to His Majesty's Navy, to glorify or say too much about anything done by the Navy during the time of the War. That is the very last thing I want to say, but I would ask hon. and right hon. Members to remember that our cruisers during the period of the War had an immensely harder task than the cruisers of any other country. I do not wish to belittle any of the other Powers in the least, but we had all our troops to convoy from the Dominions over many miles of sea, and we had, during the first 10 months of war, all our commerce to protect against the raiders that appeared on many parts of the ocean. I fully believe that no class of vessels had such hard work as the British cruisers, and it is by no means a wrong rule of thumb to make to say that the life of a cruiser in time of war is one year against two years in time of peace.
  I alluded just now to the one-Power standard. I have the figures here of the navies of the great Powers, and, as far as the British Empire is concerned, I make out the figures to be: Cruisers built, 52; building, 5; total, 57. Cruisers over 10 years old, 18; cruisers completed since 1st January, 1920, 9; cruisers launched since 1st January, 1920, 2; cruisers with speed of 33 knots or more, 2—and I should
  1574
  like to draw special attention to that last figure. I now turn to the United States of America: Cruisers built, 21; cruisers projected, 8; total, 29. Cruisers over 10 years old, 11; cruisers completed since 1st January, 1920, 10; cruisers launched since 1st January, 1920, 10; cruisers of 35 knots, 10. I think that is a very important point that I am endeavouring to make, that we have two cruisers only of 33 knots, and the United States have 10 of 35 knots, because I think that all of us know, whether we are technical or not—
  Mr. SNOWDEN: You are building against the United States, then?
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: Not at all. I have no wish to do that. I am only relating facts. I now turn to Japan: Cruisers built, 20; building, 8; projected, 2; total, 30. Cruisers over 10 years old, 4; completed since 1st January, 1920, 14; launched since 1st January, 1920, 13; cruisers with speed of 33 knots or more, 16. We have two, and that is the most important point of all.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Paper speeds.
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: A slow cruiser cannot compete against a fast cruiser. I will continue. France: cruisers built, 5; building, 5; projected, 4; total, 14. Italy: cruisers built, 10; building, 2; total, 12. Those are my figures, and with those figures I contend that the building programme that was laid down by the last Conservative Administration is the least that we can carry out so as to ensure the one-Power standard.
  Brigadier-General CHARTERIS: Have Franco and Italy any cruisers over 33 knots?
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: No. The right hon. Gentleman referred to 10,000-ton cruisers. A 10,000-ton cruiser is a very expensive article, but the unfortunate thing was that at the Washington Conference the 10,000-ton cruiser was, as I understand, laid down as the maximum, and, as these things happen, owing to that the maximum has become the minimum. If we had another Washington Conference, and if the Powers would agree that, instead of 10,000-ton cruisers, 7,000-ton cruisers

  1575
  would be sufficient, we should be able to build cruisers much more cheaply. Unfortunately, however, if one person does it, we all have to do it; the maximum was laid down as 10,000 at the Washington Conference, and I contend that owing to that it has become the minimum. I would like also very much to draw the Committee's attention to our trade routes. I have no intention of saying anything about the Air Force, but I reiterate what I said when I spoke before on the Naval Estimates, that the Air Force cannot protect our trade routes, and will not be able to protect them for generations to come, if ever. Our Dominions are such a very long way from the Mother Country, and our trade routes are so enormously long, that, as the Air Force is at present constituted, it cannot possibly protect them. The only thing is to keep on building and being supplied with sufficient cruisers to protect our trade routes. Cruisers have two services in the Navy. One is to work with the Fleet, and the other is to protect the trade routes, and the same cruisers cannot do both. I do not wish to take up the time of the Committee any longer, but I want to point out that the safety of the country depends, in my opinion, on this naval shipbuilding programme being carried out. The British Empire requires far more cruisers than any other country in the world, and unless the Government carries out that building programme, I consider that it incurs a grave responsibility to the nation.
  Before I conclude I wish to say one word in respect to marriage allowance. I brought it up the last time I spoke in this House. It has been brought forward by a great many of us very frequently, and we cannot speak too often on the subject. I say that the married naval officer is the only officer or man in our fighting forces who does not receive a marriage allowance, and, apart from anything else, it is not logical that he should not receive it. There is just one more point, now that I am on my legs and have an opportunity, that I wish to make. I should like to inform the hon. Members opposite that naval pensions are contributory. I have so often heard it said by hon. and right hon. Members opposite, quoting, I am sure, without any feeling that they were saying what was not quite correct, that
  1576
  naval pensions are not contributory. May I say that the naval pensions are contributory, because it is a question of deferred pay? When I joined the Service many years ago, our pay was not as good as it is now, and we fully understood that joining the Service for such small pay we were contributing to our own pensions. When I joined as a midshipman, my pay was 1s. 6d. a day, and that cannot be called excessive; the pay of a sub-lieutenant, 19 to 24, 5s. a day: lieutenant, 24 to 36, having charge of His Majesty's ships of war by day and night, 10s.; commander,;£l; captain of a small ship, £700 a year; captain of one of our biggest ships in the Navy, perhaps worth £2,000,000, with 1.000 men under him, £900. We cannot consider that that pay is excessive, and I feel bound to take this chance, while I am on my legs, to bring before the hon. Members opposite that the naval pension is contributory.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: It would be considerable presumption on my part to speak on the technical side of the Vote for the Navy. I wish to raise a question which is of considerable interest to the trade unionists of this country, in reference to one small side of the question of naval administration. Everyone in this Committee knows that we are upon the verge of a considerable industrial crisis, and that the trade union forces of this country are very much agitated about the prospects of the immediate future. Just at this moment there is a Fleet Order issued, to which I referred in a question which was answered in this House yesterday, which is obviously a considerable modification of previous Orders of a similar character, and which I should very much like to have dealt with by the First Lord of the Admiralty, in order that we slight accurately understand what it is that, in the event of industrial disturbance in this country, we may expect from the Navy of the country with regard to their use as strike-breakers. I would like to read the terms of the Fleet Order to which I refer. It was issued by the Auditor-General of the Navy as an instruction with regard to extra duty pay for the use of the officers and ratings of the Navy in cases of national emergency:
  "The following instructions relative to the remuneration of naval personnel em-

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  ployed on, or standing by for, industrial work, in connection with a strike of a general nature, or an industrial emergency of a general nature due to a threatened strike, are promulgated for guidance:—
  Extra pay at double rates laid down in Article 1469 of the King's Regulations may be credited to officers and ratings who are employed on the following services, namely—
  Personnel employed on the railways during a strike of railway servants.
  Personnel employed in working public light and power stations (e.g., light and power scheme).
  Personnel employed on motor transport service, other than ordinary naval duties.
  Parties engaged on pumping duties (e.g., pumping out mines, locks, etc.) and for such extra duty as working merchant ships in and out of basins.
  Double extra pay in respect of the above-named services is payable both whilst standing by and during actual employment as a general rule, commencing from the date of dispatch from ships or depots, and should cease on return thereto.
  Extra pay at the single rates laid down in Article 1469 may be credited to officers and ratings on loading or unloading foodstuffs carried in His Majesty's ships, payment to be made only for days of actual employment.
  Any cases not covered by the foregoing; paragraphs are to be referred, with full particulars as to the nature of the employment, to the Accountant-General of the Navy, for consideration before any extra pay is credited.
  Similar application is to be made for purely local strikes, where naval personnel is employed."
  That goes beyond the question of national emergency.
  " Extra pay (at either single or double rates) is not to be paid for services which normally and properly fall to officers and men of the fighting forces, e.g., protection duties, defence of vulnerable points, etc.
  It should be clearly understood that repayment by the firm or undertaking concerned for the services rendered will be made direct to the Accountant-General of the Navy. Officers and ratings before being drafted for emergency duty are, therefore, to be informed that in no case are monetary or other payments to be accepted by them from the firm or its representatives, unless such payments have been specifically authorised by the Admiralty."
  Then follow certain Orders to facilitate the promulgation and working of that particular Order. I do not wish it to be understood that I regard a question of national emergency as no concern of the Government. I do not wish for one
  1578
  moment to suggest that if this country is faced by famine as the result of an industrial crisis, it is not the duty of any Government to see that that famine is averted. What I do suggest is this: There is a vast difference between that and providing strike-breakers, providing them for firms at their own request, for payment at double rates—which probably will mean cheap strike-breakers, anyhow —providing that the services of officers and ratings of the Navy shall be entirely at the disposal of firms, whether it is a question of national importance or not.
  Viscountess ASTOR: It cannot be done.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: I have read the Fleet Order, and I do not understand the Noble Lady's interruption.
  Viscountess ASTOR: Officers and men could not be used for a private strike. There would have to be a national emergency.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: I know that the Order speaks of a national emergency, but it also speaks of local strikes. When it comes to an emergency of any kind whatever, industrial trouble of any kind, there is a fine distinction drawn between national emergency and the interests of private firms. The whole thing should be one of national control. If it is desirable, in the event of a. national emergency, to control the railways of the country, or the transport services, or the mines, or anything else, then let the Government take over the responsibility, and not arrange the matter in this particular way, which leads surely to the easy possibility of men being used in the interests of one side only in a dispute. There is the danger and possibility of that. I can assure the Committee that trade unionists throughout the country are fearing that danger and possibility. We ought to have from the First Lord of the Admiralty a complete statement as to the precise way in which naval ratings are to be used in such circumstances, so that we shall know exactly where we are on this question. This is an extremely important question, and one about which the trade unionists of the country are very much concerned. This Committee should be concerned in making clear where the Government stand, rather than in adding fuel to the flame of the present unfortunate industrial position.
  Mr. HILTON YOUNG: The hon. Member who spoke last will pardon me if I do not follow him into his interesting subject matter, but return to the very broad issues which were raised by the two previous speakers. The voice of the hon. and gallant Admiral who has spoken reminded me so vividly of "old, unhappy far off things and battles long ago," that it is with trepidation that I find myself in such close contact—I hope not conflict —with so senior and distinguished an officer. He referred to a scheme which had been prepared by himself and some of his friends. It seemed to be in the nature of secret and sealed orders to the Government, which were not to be opened until they were at a safe distance from this House. It is difficult for us to take a very practical interest in so profoundly confidential a matter, but I did observe that his scheme is not a scheme for economy. It was a scheme as to how money was to be found in order to meet the expenditure which he required.
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: It is for both efficiency and economy.
  Mr. YOUNG: That is the first revelation of this important document, and it is more encouraging than I had supposed. To deal with the hon. and gallant Member's words on this occasion, I fear that his speech was one of those with which we are so familiar in general outline upon such occasions as this—the occasions upon which, after we have all been demanding economy in general, there comes a question of possible economy in particular, and we find that all the Members of the House who have troubled to attend have come for the express purpose of resisting the particular economy. I venture to say to the Committee that if we are sincere in our advocacy of economy, we have to be prepared, not only to clamour for economy on the other fellow's Estimates, but when it comes to the Estimates about which we care most, we have to be prepared to point out how economies can legitimately and wisely be made. These Estimates are the Estimates which I care most about; they awaken my most affectionate interest. I stand among those Members of the Committee who would choose to march in the forefront of the defence of the principle that this nation and this Empire rest upon our Navy. Those of us who have not only known it
  1580
  as a theory, but have seen it as a fact, and have felt from day to day at sea how the future destinies of this country, and the cause of good in all the world, rested during those days on the ships and the men of the British Fleet, at any rate can speak without hesitation.
  What I have to say about the directions for economy in our Navy Estimates is not in any degree antagonistic to naval efficiency. The whole of the brief argument which I have to advance will be directed to showing that at the present time you can get absolutely increased efficiency of the British Fleet by reducing expenditure. The hon. and gallant Admiral referred to the one-power standard which was confirmed and accepted at the Imperial Conference. Let us accept it. But do let us take the reasonable view that the one-power standard is not to be measured by the arbitrary and stupid course of merely counting ships. The strength of the Navy does not depend on the number of its ships. It depends upon the quality of its ships, in the first place, and upon the quality of its men. Did we not learn that lesson in the War? It is to that point that I would direct my argument. Recognising that we are, as it were, on this occasion an assembly of those who are friends of and interested in the Navy, let me take my colleagues with me step by step over one or two brief propositions with which they will agree before I come to some proposition which may be more controversial.
  I imagine that we are all in agreement that economy is not only desirable, but imperative. You cannot go on with national expenditure at the present rate; you have to out it down, and that is imperative, not optional. As this trade and revenue year has advanced, it has become clearer to us day by day that economy is not only imperative, but is immediately imperative. Our trade balance has gone away to nothing. Our revenue is not coming in with that resiliency which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was depending upon at the beginning of the year. We possibly have ahead of us a season of very grave labour troubles, which may bring revenue down. The need of economy is, therefore, the more imperative and immediate.
  5.0 P.M.
  Let me come to another proposition. There is a prima-facie case upon the face of the. Navy Estimates for a reduction of

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  naval expenditure. I base that statement upon the total figures of the Estimates for this year. We got them down to their lowest point of £55,000,000 in 1923, and since then they have gone up. They began to slide up a little in 1924–25, and they have jumped up this year by 4·7 millions. Deduct £1,250,000 for the Naval Air Arm, and that leaves you with a positive increase of £3,500,000 for this year. I know that the First Lord has explained it all away. I know that he has shown how really there is no increase at all. When I read that passage in his speech, I was reminded forcibly of the very first occasion upon which I stood at the Box at which he is now. I was put to deal with the question of our expenditure upon the Civil Service. I had before me some official figures to show that our expenditure upon the Civil Service, rightly regarded, was no bigger in 1922 than in 1913. Step by step I whittled away the figure of our total expenditure, and, as I did so, I grew more and more surprised at my own success and the House more and more amused. Finally, when I arrived at the position that we were spending no more in 1922 upon the Civil Service than we had spent in 1913, the House dissolved in uncontrollable laughter. In my inexperience I had proved a great deal too much. I think the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty has really proved too much in trying to show there is no substantial increase in the Navy Estimates this year. He says it is an automatic increase, but I dread an automatic increase more than a confessed and deliberate increase. What does it mean? It means an increase this year, in consequence of something done last year, and if we have a great programme of construction it will mean a further automatic increase next year.
  I want to express my great disquietude that there are no definite economies effected in regard to the less controversial aspect of naval expenditure to set against the proposed increase in construction. An effort is surely needed. One is always challenged by those who say: "Where are they to be made?" A reasonable answer is in the actual business of administration. Take the question of dockyards. I take my courage in my hand and say, without hesitation, that there is not a single efficient business firm in this
  1582
  country who would not consider that the naval dockyards at Chatham, Sheer-ness, and Pembroke are obsolete. Any efficient business firm that occupied them would either have closed them down or would have moved years ago. I would implore the First Lord of the Admiralty to face up to this proposition and save the country money that is being wasted through these sources.
  May I also make a second suggestion, and that is with regard to the cost of the Admiralty Office itself. I venture to advance that there is the strongest possible reason for saying there is a prima facie case for immediate and vigorous advance in the reduction in costs at the Admiralty Office. In 1913–14 the expenditure under Vote 12 was £450,000. In 1925–26 it was £1,235,000, with the naval establishments reduced. It is true that the value of money has to be allowed for. Convert your present expenditure of £1,235,000 to the 1913–14 level and it comes to £725,000 in comparison with the then cost of £450,000. This is no less than five years after the termination of the War and it is after the Washington Conference and a reduction of naval armaments. Is there no cause for a prima facie reduction here?
  With regard to the more general situation the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) has called attention to the general level of Navy Estimates. I want the Committee to consider one more figure as showing the strength of the prima facie ease for inquiry. If you do as I have just done, and take the total cost of the Navy for this year and convert it into 1913–14 prices, you get the figure of £37,000,000. In addition to that, you have a special construction programme of £3,000,000 or more now being carried out by the Australian Government. At the present time the Navy is costing us as much as when the whole of Europe was an armed camp, when the eyes of the far-sighted people were looking forward to great possibilities of war coining nearer and nearer. We are still spending as much as in the year the "Panther" went to Agadir. The German Navy has gone. There are only two others of appreciable importance in the world. Neither of them, as far as any reasonable man can see, is over likely to stand in such a position

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  as to be driven to challenge the British Fleet. How strong the case grows! In the meanwhile it is not simply that we are struggling with the heavy burden in view of our trade depression, it is that our competitors on the Continent of Europe are gaining a double advantage, because they are not only free from the burdens of naval armaments but they are able to use for productive output the plant that we have to use for naval construction.
  The last point I desire to make is one on which I come on to ground where I am conscious that there is disagreement and that I am not even in perfect agreement with some of my colleagues. What is the great characteristic circumstance of the present time as regards the Navy? It is, that we are living, as far as naval science is concerned, in a period of experiment. We have still got on our hands all the countless lessons of the Great War, which absolutely revolutionised naval science. All those great unworked-out problems centre on the question of construction. Do we not know, any of us who have followed naval history or taken an interest in the vital welfare of our country, that the welfare of the Navy, the country and the Empire was most in jeopardy at the moment when doubt was passed on the efficiency of our methods of naval construction at the Battle of Jutland? These problems centre on the question of construction as to defence against high tingle fire bombs and torpedoes, the whole relations between the great ship and the submarine, the whole question of the difference made as regards design in ships by scouting from naval aircraft. Do we think at the present moment that any naval expert can give a final answer to these questions? We all know— and the First Lord knows better than any of us— how from day to day fresh advances are being made, and the whole speed of obsolescence of any naval design is faster than at any other time.
  The moral I draw is perfectly obvious. It is wrong, uneconomic, and tends to inefficiency to construct ships in bulk at a time when design is changing so fast. You have got a time of safety and, as far as naval contest goes, the country is in greater safety than ever before. You have, coincident with that time, a
  1584
  period of rapid change in the development of naval science. You should build, as far as numbers go, as slowly as you can, but as far as each ship you are building goes, as quickly as you can. Preserve your money until you have more certainty and then, when the state of the world demands it, begin to add to your forces. But now, the value of every pound you spend is swiftly obsolescent. That lesson is enforced by the extreme slowness of production at the present time. The "Effingham," very largely because of Labour troubles and changes in design, has been long delayed. We know how slow the building of the five new County Class cruisers is. That goes to enforce the moral that, at the present time, we should lay down, as regards numbers, as few ships as possible. If you build five ships of single design, it is highly probable that by the time they are launched they will be completely obsolete. Common sense points to this, that you should restrain your numbers. It is actually contrary to efficiency to build more of these ships at the time is such circumstances as at present. It gives you a false impression of security. You are lulling the public opinion of the country into false security by producing ships, which may after all be valueless when launched. It is actually inimical to efficiency that you should over-build at the present time.
  There is one other point I should mention. We are constantly opposed, when we seek for economies, from the more stalwart champions of actual expenditure by, as it were, a threat of other countries in their shipbuilding programmes. It is very easy to produce an atmosphere of apprehension by dwelling on the large numbers of ships that other countries are building. If there is anything at all in the argument I have been advancing, I should say, in reply, when the shipbuilding programmes of other nations are referred to, that if they are so foolish and so unwise as to be spending large sums of money at the present time in ships not likely to be any good, for goodness sake let them do so! They are wasting their money, and, though I do not wish them ill, I am not sorry to see rivals imposing so severe a handicap upon their financial, commercial, and industrial prosperity. Frow the point of view of naval power and influence, I do not see the least cause to apprehend any risk to

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  our influence and security from the fact that other countries are building even faster than we are at the present time.
  In these ways, I believe it is possible to effect an absolute reconcilement between the interests of naval security and the interests of national security which are bound up at the present time with economy. I have no desire to say which should precede the other. Both are essential. Both can be reconciled. I believe that those Members of this Committee will be doing the highest service to their country who do not oppose a mere brick wall, composed of bricks of prejudice, of obstruction, and even of passion in the search for economy in every area, but that the best service they can do for their country is to assist the Minister responsible to find justifiable economies, even in that area of expenditure which is to them most important.
  Commander BELLAIRS: Before I pass to the remarks made from the Liberal benches I wish to say a word or two about the genesis of what the newspapers call the Naval Crisis. The first aspect of the matter that strikes one is that we have never before in this House discussed this question of shipbuilding without having the shipbuilding programme of the Government before us. That is why I should describe the discussion to-day as useless, because it seems to be far better, when we have no shipbuilding programme before us, that the discussion should be postponed. As, however, the discussion has been initiated let me deal with the genesis of the naval crisis. The Government appointed a Cabinet Committee to look into and to deal with the question. The first that we heard was an apparently inspired paragraph in the "Times" of 17th February, to this effect:
  "The Cabinet attach considerable importance to holding a disarmament conferences in the near future and it feels that this country's position would be strengthened considerably at such a conference if, in the meantime, it could show its sympathy in a tangible manner. It has, therefore, instructed a Committee to inquire into the whole position with regard to new warship construction during the next few years. It is understood that until that report has been presented no new building is likely to be undertaken. If nothing comes of the disarmament question, and it is decided that building must be resumed, it will be open to the Admiralty to produce a Supplementary Estimate at a later stage."
  1586
  What I want to call attention to is this; We have got here three tried old friends —the Committee of Inquiry—reported at long last—the Disarmament Conference, and the Moral Gesture to the World. The Committee of Inquiry, I hope, is finished. I do not know. The conference on disarmament, we know, is unlikely to take place. I do not know why, but I understand that the reason is, as one infers from the speech of the Reporter of the French Naval Budget, that the French demand that the great Powers shall agree to equal navies before they enter into another conference. My own view is that if France refuses to enter into that conference the other Powers should go on with it, hold their sittings in public, and try to find out who is the offender against disarmament.
  Then there is the moral gesture. No wiser words have been uttered concerning the moral gesture than contained in the letter read at a City meeting from the present Prime Minister in 1924, in which he pointed out that prior to the War the only cases in which the moral gesture had been made it had completely failed. I venture to say that the only cases where the moral gesture has succeeded have been due to our maritime supremacy. The abolition of slavery, the ability to grant free institutions, and the granting of self-government to Ireland—none of these things would have taken place but for the fact that this country possessed a maritime supremacy that insured her safety. As to examples, the only single success was at the Washington Conference, and it was because the Americans had something in hand to give away. They agreed to scrap 14 battleships if the Powers would agree to their proposals of disarmament as regards battleship tonnage. The result was success. Therefore, it seems to me that the obvious thing to do is to follow their example, bring in our programme, and pass it, and enter a conference on disarmament. If we succeed, we will not have to carry out that programme. If we fail, we go on with the programme. But to say that you are to enter a conference, and if the Powers do not agree to disarm, you will then bring in your programme, that is a threat of war, and is an impossible way to deal with the situation.

  1587
  In regard to the question of the introduction of Supplementary Estimates. Firstly, what is the programme of the Conservative Government, as initiated in this House, after a great deal of consideration, in a speech by the then First Lord of the Admiralty on 2lst January, 1924? It followed the speech made by the Prime Minister at Devonport. That programme provided for not less than 20 ships of one kind or another to be laid down during 1924. I have worked it out, and the expenditure involved is £24,300,000. It is just as well to face the facts. The Labour Government laid down only five cruisers and two destroyers of that programme, costing £11,000,000. That left £13,300,000 still to be spent. The First Lord of the Admiralty stated that in the first three years we would lay down more than the average of five cruisers. Therefore, if I say we would have laid down six cruisers in 1925, and if I make no allowances for destroyers or submarines, I shall be well within the mark. The 1925 programme of six cruisers would cost £12,000,000, and we then have of the 1924 Convention programme approximately £26,000,000 yet unspent. Averaging that over a period of three years equally distributed—though not really equally distributed—for the first year you would not spend so much, but more in the second year—it would give £8,700,000 a year if distributed equally over three years. We have to add to that construction the cost of upkeep and personnel. I have seen a statement to the effect that we are not to have any Supplementary Estimates for this year, the expenditure being postponed. I should like to represent to the Government that that would be rather a breach of faith to the House, because the First Lord in his statement in the White Paper on the Navy Estimates issued at the beginning of this Session said:
  "His Majesty's Government is at present proceeding with the investigation which the late Government declared its intention of making into this question as a whole, and proposals as regards new construction will be laid before Parliament at a later date when the inquiry has been completed."
  Therefore, I take it, we shall certainly have these proposals for new construction brought before us.
  Let me deal with the speech made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman
  1588
  the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). At the very outset, he said he was going to call attention to the scale of expenditure. I should have said that it was most important to call attention to what is vital and then deal with the expenditure. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is going to call attention to expenditure, surely the Navy is not the grossest offender. It is only responsible for 20 per cent. of the increase on the Estimates, while the Civil Service Estimates show an increase of 400 per cent. I asked a question to-day with a view to making a comparison between our expenditure to-day on the Navy and what our expenditure was in 1914 after there had been deducted the non-effective Votes and allowance made for the rise in prices and wages. The answer of the First Lord was that our Navy Estimates to-day on that scale—that is the scale of pre-War 1914—after deducting non-effectives Votes —was £15,900,000 less than in 1914. That figure is very significant.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. H. Young) did more than did the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley, and that is he did suggest—for the first time in my knowledge from the Liberal Benches, except a few suggestions of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy)—methods of bringing down the expenditure. He pointed out the rapidity with which cruisers are built, and he pointed out the contrast—and it is a great scandal— between the time occupied in the building of the "Effingham." which was eight years and three months, as compared with her sister ship the "Hawkins," three years and two months. The result was that the "Effingham" cost £537,000 more, or about half-a-million more, for exactly the same construction. Then he went on and pointed to redundant dockyards. He went on to refer to Pembroke. I wondered at the time what was thought by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), for he went down to Pembroke during the General Election and boasted his skill against the power of the Admiralty, saying that he had prevented the Pembroke Dockyard from being abolished. He went on to ask the Secretary, of State for the Colonies, who was then First Lord of the Admiralty, to

  1589
  restrain the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Battersea (Viscount Curzon) and myself from advocating the abolition of Pembroke Dockyard, saying that if we did that he would restrain his people. That is what we call political log-rolling of the first order. There is an instance of political interference with Admiralty economy.
  Chatham was referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich. I believe it is the case that you could save about two millions a year by the abolition of Chatham Dockyard, but then at the same time you have other considerations to take into account. You have to consider the 12,000 workmen there. I would suggest to the Government that they should appoint to Committee representative of the Port of London Authority, the Southern Railway, and other people, to go into this question as to how they can bring Chatham Dockyard into use. It is perfectly useless to make suggestions like that of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley for civil work in the Royal Dockyard. Krupps changed their establishment from 100 per cent. war basis to a 100 per cent. peace basis; but then Krupps are a private firm. We have tried our hands at Government work. At this moment, the Government are trying to sell the Woolwich locomotives. They are a dead loss. That method will not do. The Government have got to get rid of the redundant dockyards by turning them under civil control and for civil employment in the best way they can. The right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley went on to say that cruisers are a branch of the Navy in which we are notoriously strong, a statement which I directly traverse. Ho based his remarks on the Return of Fleets.
  Sir J. SIMON: Not entirely. I had also in mind the statement that was made by the late First Lord of the Admiralty.
  Commander BELLAIRS: He advised the Committee to consult the Return of Fleets. The Return of Fleets is intended to be a statement of all vessels maintained on the active list, and it is left for each hon. Member to form his own deductions. The Admiralty do not try to cook the accounts in any way. They give the speed, the armament, and the date
  1590
  each vessel was launched, in order that we can draw our own deductions. Of course, we can draw erroneous conclusions as well as accurate conclusions.
  When we are framing the programme in this year, 1025, we are thinking of the years 1928–29 and on: those are the years on which we have to fix our minds. First of all, we have got to remember the mental attitude which the Liberal party adopts in regard to these matters. I cannot help commenting on it, because it has always been a standing mystery to me that a party which more than any other party has made us dependent on imported foodstuffs should yet refuse to give us the necessary naval armaments to enable us to defend those imported food supplies. No one knows better than the Chairman of that party (Mr. Lloyd George) how absolutely and utterly dependent we were during the War on naval defences, and how without those naval defences we should have lost the War. The leaders of the Liberal party, Lord Oxford and my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) issued a joint manifesto in the General Election of 1924, which was in line with the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, and because of the five cruisers laid down by the Socialist Government they said we were leading a race in cruiser armaments. Does my right hon. Friend think that statement was justified?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Certainly I do.
  Commander BELLAIRS: I must say I am astonished at that. If the right hon. Gentleman will take the number of cruisers launched in the last five years he will find that we have launched one-tenth of the number launched by the United States of America and one-twelfth of the number launched by Japan. How can he say we are leading a race in cruiser armaments? Take the new construction. During the last five years Japan has spent two and a-half times as much on new construction as we have. That is. the position. The Liberal party's statements are wild statements, very like the old statements about mythical armadas and navies to resist nightmares in which the right hon. Gentleman indulged before the War. Surely speakers from the Liberal Benches must realise the harm that is done in Australia through not

  1591
  advocating the provision of sufficient armaments for the defence of our Colonies. If they study the Debates which have taken place in Australia, in regard to the Singapore question, for instance, in which the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition there took part, they will find that we are charged with abandoning the Dominions to their fate while we are providing for our own air defences—the Liberal party supports air defences—for the reason that we want to sleep quietly in our beds in this island. They keep on contrasting the provision which is being made for air defence with the provision for naval defence.
  Let me push the comparison still further. The Japanese have 21 cruisers built, building or projected, as compared with five for ourselves. I am purposely omitting the two Australian cruisers. I am talking about vessels since the War. We built a lot in the War for war purposes which are not suited for warfare in the Pacific.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: There are two of the "Hawkins" type building now.
  Commander BELLAIRS: I am omitting the two Australian cruisers on purpose.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes to have this accurate. We are actually building now two of the "Frobisher" class, which are only just under 10,000 tons, and they are in addition to the five, so that makes seven in addition to the two Australian cruisers.
  Commander BELLAIRS: But I am talking about vessels laid down since the War. That is what we have got to fix our minds on.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not mind my interrupting him on this technical point. Does he seriously tell us that cruisers of the "Frobisher" class are unsuited for war purposes—that these ships of 9,250 tons, only just under 10,000 tons, are unsuited for war purposes?
  Commander BELLAIRS: I am not dealing with that point; I am dealing with the statement made that we are leading a race in cruiser armaments. I am dealing
  1592
  with vessels laid down or projected since the War, and I say that Japan has laid down or projected since the War 21 cruisers to our five, that is, 4⅕ times as many. In destroyers they have laid down or projected 69 to our four, which is 17¼ times as many. In submarines they have laid down or projected since the War 61 to our two, that is, 30½ times as many. These are the facts which we have got to face.
  What has been the result of all that? It is that we have only seven cruisers of over 33 knots built, building or projected, whereas Japan has 26 over 33 knots. That is a statement which can be checked by means of the Return of Fleets to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley called attention. When we come to 1931— accepting the statement of the Admiralty that a destroyer has a life of 12 years— it will be found that we shall have only 11 destroyers under 12 years old to Japan's 54; and only 16 submarines to Japan's 65 under 10 years old, which is the term laid down as the life of a submarine. That can only be altered by new programmes in the future. In an answer given in the House of Commons only yesterday, the First Lord of the Admiralty stated that on 31st March, 1925, we should have 47 cruisers, as compared with the 96 we had on the 31st March, 1914—less than half the number. That does not look as though we are leading a race in cruiser armaments. The Admiralty demands are, in fact, very, very moderate, so much so that some naval officers might consider that the Admiralty were endangering the country. They are working to have 52 cruisers for the whole Navy. It is allowed that it is a moderate standard to have one cruiser for every capital ship with the Fleet—during the War we never detached any cruisers which were serving with the Grand Fleet—and then there are only 32 left for the defence of commerce. Seeing that we needed 32 cruisers to search for "Karlsruhe" and "Emden" alone, surely 32 for the whole 80,000 miles of our trade route is a very moderate provision, and does not point to our leading a race in cruiser armaments? All these 47 ships except perhaps two will be obsolete in about 12 years, and if we allow three years for the building of a cruiser it

  1593
  means that we have got to replace them in nine shipbuilding programmes over the next nine years. Dividing by nine we get five, which is exactly what the Admiralty state will be their average requirements in cruisers in the future. Most of these cruisers, as the gallant Admiral pointed out, have been subjected to great wear and tear during the War; also, they were not designed for the great spaces of the Pacific and Indian Ocean, and we have to replace them in order to keep up our relative strength compared with any Power which might attack us.
  I have dealt with the speed of cruisers, but I have not dealt with their strength. Everybody knows that the Washington Conference resulted in a new type of Dreadnought cruiser with 8-inch guns. The bursting effect of a shell from one of those 8-inch guns is three times the bursting effect of the shell of the 6-inch guns in any one of our 6-inch gun cruisers. Taking the whole number of guns on a broadside, then according to which ships you compare them with—the Japanese cruisers have nine 8-inch guns—the broadside would be from four to six times as great as in the case of vessels armed with 6-inch guns. Those vessels have a greater speed, and they have a gun range of 30,000 yards, so that they would be able to choose their range and fire away at 20,000 yards, outside the gun range of any British ship except the five building, and pound that ship to pieces. It is perfect folly to count heads in the Return of Fleets. The important thing is how many of the ships we can compare with one another, and that comparison shows that we have five cruisers building or projected to eight building or projected by Japan armed with 8-inch guns.
  I come now to the question of whether we are justified in counting in the two projected Australian cruisers. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was at one time First Lord of the Admiralty. It would be a good thing, in fact, to resurrect the First Lord of the Admiralty in 1913 face to face with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1925, and that I propose to do in reference to these Australian cruisers. Speaking in this House on 20th March, 1913, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer argued, what Coronel subsequently proved to be the case, that local navies additional to the Imperial
  1594
  Navy were required to meet local threats, and he added:
  "It could never be supposed that the naval development of the Dominions and of the great possessions of the Crown overseas could be restricted and discouraged on account of any European standard which we in this island found it convenient for the time being to follow."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March, 1913; col. 1761, Vol. 50.]
  He called it a "false dilemma," and said they were additional to our standard but not additional to the world-wide requirements of the Empire. I hope the Admiralty will bear that point in mind in regard to any controversy on these two Australian cruisers.
  Hon. Members opposite constantly try to confront us with the dilemma: "Are you in favour of economy? Of course, we are in favour of economy. I think nearly all the constructive proposals which have been brought forward in this House for economics on the Army, Navy, and Air Services have come from these benches. The point in regard to the Chancellor of the Exchequer confronting the Sea Lord of the Admiralty is simply this. On a question of policy, the Cabinet lay down what it is to be, but it is impossible for them to say to the responsible sailors that their advice is of no account as to the force required to carry out that policy. The sailors must be the best judges of that. I do not think there can be any doubt about it. The Cabinet, in meeting the Admiralty, or any other of the spending Departments, should say to them: "Is this expenditure vital or is it merely useful? If it is merely useful the country is too hard up to afford it, but if you can show that it is vital we are bound to afford it." That, I think, is the real issue. Having settled that these cruisers are vital, and that we require five a year, and more on the early years; remembering that we have got a great destroyer programme facing us from 1927 onwards; that in the year 1931, under the terms of the Washington Conference, we start building two battleships, and in 1932 another two battleships, is it not wise to distribute the expenditure— to take a wide survey ahead and to undertake some of the expenditure now? That is the point to which hon. Members ought to address themselves. Having said that this construction is vital, is it not wise to help employment? Six cruisers will employ 21,000 men, according to the

  1595
  Admiralty statistics, during three years of building. The six cruisers, according to the Admiralty calculation, will cost £336,000 less than in 1919, and 80 per cent. of the cost will go in wages. What took place in 1908? The Liberal Government reduced shipbuilding in that year, when prices were low and unemployment was rife. There was a naval scare in 1909, and inevitably we are working up to that again. We did not face our obligations in 1908, which was a year of unemployment and low prices, and we had to face it ultimately in 1909, when prices were high and employment good. In 1909 we had the Liberal Prime Minister and Sir Edward Grey on our side, and "The Nation" came out with an article, in which it said we had a Palmerstonian Prime Minister, but, thank God, we had a Gladstonian Chancellor of the Exchequer in the person of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lloyd George). Do not make the mistake which was made in 1908. I beg the Government to face their obligations, and I hope they will be able to inform us next week that they are going to fulfil those obligations and do their duty.
  Lieut.-Colonel SPENDER-CLAY: I do not often intervene in naval Debates, because I prefer to leave it to those who have a better knowledge of naval matters than I have. There is, however, one case I want to put before the consideration of the Committee. I should like to preface my remarks by saying that the necessity for a greater part of my criticism will be done away with if I can receive an assurance from the First Lord that the Committee of Imperial Defence have advised him that there is no danger within the next two years of this country falling below the one-Power standard. If we can have that assurance my criticism will be greatly modified. I think it is agreed amongst all parties as an axiom that we have decided to maintain our Fleet at a one-Power standard.
  I would like to know if the Committee of Imperial Defence has warned the First Lord of the Admiralty that there is a danger of us falling below the one-Power standard? I know that we have to take considerations of economy into account. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget statement, said he hoped to reduce expenditure by £10,000,000 a year,
  1596
  but I do not know how he is going to do it. I do not think there is much chance of reducing the Estimates of the Forces under our present system. Against my will I am coming more and more to the conclusion that it will be absolutely necessary sooner or later, to come to a Ministry of Defence, because there is always a fear of one arm or the other trying to secure an undue proportion of what is available for defence, subconsciously, perhaps, without really having in view what is the aim of all three arms of the Service, which is to maintain the defence of our Empire at the lowest possible cost.
  Of course, I am aware that that question involves legislation, and I certainly will not pursue it any further. Before embarking upon a large additional naval expenditure, I feel I must apologise to the Committee for calling attention to the position, as it is to-day, and comparing it with what it was at the commencement of the War. Then we had a growing naval menace with Germany in the North Sea, which was apparent to almost everyone of us. The Germans even went so far as to increase their defences at Heligoland and to widen the Kiel Canal, they even went so far as to introduce a Capita] Levy to increase their fleet; all this was a direct menace to us. This country, which had kept up its Navy purely for the defensive purposes of the Empire, had, in consequence, to commence another building programme, and what happened? The German Fleet was put at the bottom of the sea. and, therefore, our naval commitments now are nothing like what they were in 1914. But what about the commitments of our Army? I am afraid that in the desire to cut down the Service Estimates the Admiralty may have gained their point at the expense of the Army. Let us consider for a moment what is the position as regards the Army. We have no reason to be quite happy about the state of things in China, India, or Egypt, and we do not know what developments may take place in other parts of the world. The effect of the War has been that, whilst naval commitments have been reduced, the commitments of our Army are much greater than they were. Therefore, I must confess that unless it can be proved to me that there is a danger of us falling below the one-Power standard,

  1597
  I should be very chary about committing our country to any further naval building programme.
  I want to ask the First Lord one or two questions, the answers to which may guide us as to the attitude we take in coming to a decision. I want to know how far the building programmes, the advertised building programmes, of Japan and the United States have been retarded. I think that is an important point. It is all very well for people to say that so many cruisers are projected, but it is of interest to know how many of those ships have to be put back owing to the Japanese earthquake, and how many which have been authorised by the United States have not been proceeded with.
  My second question is, will there not be, owing to the five cruisers which were authorised by the last Government, a considerable automatic increase next year amounting to some millions over and above the Estimates of this year, and will not the programme of ships authorised at the present moment be an additional charge upon the Estimates, and would that not come on the top of the millions which will be spent next year? I should like to know how much more, if the rumours are true that so many cruisers are going to be built, will be spent during the next financial year, and what economy would take place if our building programme is delayed for nine months or a year? I take it that the greatest expense for the cruisers authorised last year will come next year. If the programme is delayed for nine months or a year, I want to know whether there will not be a considerable reduction, and not an increase, in the Naval Estimates if we delay putting those ships in hand for another nine months or a year?
  My third question is in regard to the number of officers and men, and other kinds of ratings and civilians employed by the Admiralty. I confess that the numbers put into my hands are so astounding that I can hardly credit them. I have consulted Command Paper No. 276 for 1919 and Command Paper No. 2448 dated 1st June, 1925, and I find that the number employed by the Admiralty on the 1st of August, 1914, at the headquarter staff of the Admiralty and other parts of the headquarters of the Admiralty was 4,366, and on the 1st June this year, the
  1598
  total was 7,971 employed in or about the Admiralty. What possible justification can there be for that?
  These figures astounded me so much that I went to the trouble of having them confirmed and I am assured that they are correct, and I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman can contradict them. In any case we have this large increase. It may be said that these figures include the Air arm of the naval service, which have been added to the naval staff. On the other hand the coastguards have been taken over by the Board of Trade, but I maintain that there is no justification for the number being even the same. I cannot help thinking that something might be done in the way of economy by removing from their retreat in the Admiralty some of those who are at present employed there.
  I would also like to ask how far in regard to certain matters do the three Services work together. I would like to be assured that there is proper co-ordination between them in regard to the purchasing of materials and administration. I am quite aware that the Navy cannot use the same sort of cordite as the Army, because a different constituent is required, but the greater part of the supply services would be common to all the three.
  6.0 P.M.
  Considerable economies could be effected by having a, joint purchasing board for the three Services. That has already been done to a certain extent. Hospitals in various places have been combined, and possibly that might be carried further, not to the detriment of any of the Services, but to the advantage of the State as a whole. I know it is only human nature for all of us who preach economy in our constituencies to feel that some concession should be made to our own hobbies. That is human nature, and we all naturally expect it, but we must remember that we are going through probably the most acute industrial crisis that this country has ever known, and that it is necessary to conserve our resources in every possible direction; and it is in the belief that economy is most essential at the present moment that I urge the First Lord and the Admiralty to think a long time before they commit the country to a large naval expenditure.
  Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I venture to raise one or two considerations with regard to the subject upon which we are engaged to-day. I am not a naval expert, and, therefore, cannot treat them in the way in which the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) and other hon. Members who have spoken have treated them. I do not know that it will do the hon. and gallant Member who has just resumed his seat any harm if I say that I should thoroughly associate myself with what he has said. Nobody who has been responsible, to whatever degree, for, not exactly supervising, but keeping a hand upon the problem of national defence can be altogether confident about the way in which things are developing. With respect and deference, the feeling I had when listening to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone, was that he represents very accurately, with great knowledge and intellectual distinction, that type of mind which, apparently, is unaware that the whole problem of national defence has changed since the War, and that since the War—I do not know how long it is going to last—we have had an opportunity of combining what one might briefly describe as Foreign Office policy with the three defence Services policy, in a way that we had no opportunity of doing from 1000 to 1914, and which in a year or two we shall not have an opportunity of doing.
  To a lay mind like my own—I hope the Committee will believe that I am very much interested in the whole problem— there are not three Departments of defence, the Admiralty, the War Office and the Air Ministry, but four, because I would add the Foreign Office. Therefore, associating myself with the general view of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), I would say that what we ought to do now, generally, is actually to produce what is a minimum necessity, whilst we are very actively exploring two other fields cognate to actual production. The first is foreign policy, and the second a thorough intellectual overhauling of the strategy of naval defence. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out, in a way that is unanswerable, the importance of the method of defence—the use of ships, the construction of ships, and what always
  1600
  struck me as, perhaps, being more important than anything, namely, the co-ordination of the arms—the kind of ships, the submarines, cruisers of various types, first-class battleships and so on—the whole co-ordination, the selection of what would be the most effective form of striking material theoretically, and the most effective form of defence theoretically. It has been said that the problem is a very simple one, but to say that we should maintain a one-power standard, and then look at our Navy List and, after seeing that we are a little better than country A or country B, when we come to country C and discover that, if we take prospective building into account, we are not quite so good as they, and must build up against them purely mechanically—to say that that is solving the problem of national defence so far as the Navy is concerned is absurd.
  Reference has been made to what we did when we were in office, but it is not only the length of time that a Government is in office that is so important—it is the period when that length of time begins. Nine months in office, when it begins in November, is far more precious, for the purposes of producing a naval policy, than nine months in office beginning at the end of January. We came in quite raw, never having been there before, very doubtful, experimenting, carrying burdens that no Government in our time has been called upon to carry—not on account of their weight only, but by reason of the fact that most of my cot leagues were there for the first time, and had to acquaint themselves with a very complicated machinery, with personnel, habit and so on. What did we do in respect of this problem? The First Lord has made a statement of the policy of the Conservative Government, and he made his statement very emphatically. I am not going into the figures, and I am not, as I have said, going to make an expert contribution to the Debate, because I think we can have too many expert contributions once the case is quite clear. What we want to-day is what I might describe as the lay, common-sense, general survey of the problem.
  We were, when we came into office, so close to the time for the production of Votes that all we could do as regards the programme of our predecessors was to say

  1601
  that, as I explained when I spoke in Committee on the Estimates, we did not believe in the rest of that policy, which was not in our opinion an encouraging policy at all, but that we should rebuild that year for replacement. We had some doubt about the programme even from that point of view, but, so far as the question of national defence was concerned, we decided that we would follow that part of the programme, and we did so, telling the Committee and the country that we were going to go into the whole question of naval requirements, and that this year we would produce a policy upon which we could stand. When that was done, the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Amery) was very kindly towards us, and we were sincerely obliged to him, but, at the same time, he made a very lugubrious speech, saying he was sure we were letting the country down, although he was good enough to put the blame upon himself. He said:
  "If any blame attaches"—
  that was for our programme being introduced, instead of his own—
  "it attaches to myself and the late Government for allowing financial considerations to hold back as long as they did a programme which is now more than ever necessary."
  He went on to say he was exceedingly sorry for the delay in meeting the needs 01 our naval security. That was after exploration, because they were experts, they were in office, they were accustomed to it they had time, and they said that this was the minimum. As I have said, my right hon. Friend was almost moved to tears. He said that what he called financial considerations had been allowed by the Government to prevent them from carrying out this duty of naval production adequately. Back they come, after nine months, with all their knowledge, with all their experience. They had two points then—Singapore and a shipbuilding programme. Singapore, I understand, they have now modified. That has not been mentioned in the Debate to-day, but it is an essential point all the same in the consideration of the problem we have now before us, and I should like to ask them, what is the policy regarding Singapore now, after the statement made in the other House? I think this Committee of the House of Commons, which, after all, is the financial authority in this
  1602
  country, ought to know what is the policy now regarding Singapore. They told us at the beginning of the Session, in the King's Speech, that they were going to. build on plan, that they had plans ready, that they knew precisely what they were going to do. We were informed by their representative in another place the other day that they have not got plans, that they are not building on plan, that they are waiting and seeing and experimenting, and in the meantime spending other people's money and not their own. Regarding the shipbuilding programme, they have been longer in office than we were, they have their old plans, their old commitments, and their old declarations that their commitments of two years ago were absolutely essential to national security. Although they have been pressed for weeks to tell us what this Committee has decided, they meet us here to-day and say, "We are very sorry; we have jumped too soon. The Liberal party has been far too anxious to bring this question before the House; we are not ready to tell you." We are within three weeks of the end of the Session, we are within a fortnight of the end of financial control. In less than three weeks this House passes over all the control it has over the expenditure for 1924 and 1925, and on this essential point, this point of first-class national importance, and first-class Parliamentary importance, the Government of the day says, "We must sit down till 10 o'clock at night, when we will wind up the Debate, as we have nothing to say that can be the subject of consideration by the Members of the Committee." The First Lord of the Admiralty is adopting the naval strategy of remaining in harbour until the war is over, and then, when no one can hit him, he will come out and fire a few guns. All I can say is that there is some incompetence somewhere, there is some mishandling somewhere, and we should like to know where it is.
  There is one thing I should like to take the courage to say before I sit down. I have toyed, as I dare say everyone who has given any consideration to the problem has toyed, with the idea of a Defence Minister. Quite frankly, my mind is not made up on the subject. There is a great deal to be said for it, and a great deal to be said against it.

  1603
  Everyone who has been exploring the question, however, has also come up against this, that the Admiralty, a great and powerful and popular Service, which is regarded, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman regards it, as the Service which provides the foundation of the power of Great Britain, has an overshadowing authority over the minds of Ministers and of Cabinets that is not always in the interests of the country. The expert, whether he is a soldier or a sailor or an airman, is always inclined— and, do believe me, I am the last person to blame him for it—to regard his particular duty as a paper problem, and he assumes, not what we should call, carrying cur minds back over the Debates of the last few days, an insurable risk. He regards the problem not as one of supplying a rational insurance for an insurable risk, but as the proper working out of all sorts of possibilities and saying, "If a war breaks out, if something happens, then I shall not be responsible for the defence of the Empire, unless you, the political heads, have done so and so." I am sure that is at the base of the whole of the Singapore folly. I regard it as a folly, and the more one looks into it, and the more information one gets about it, the more one comes to that conclusion. We get now the same idea, that the expert at the Admiralty, admirable as he is splendid man both personally and officially as he is, exercises a dominating influence which makes it very difficult to introduce those reforms that the hon. and gallant Gentleman below the Gangway indicated.
  Is it beyond all possibility that the whole organisation of the Admiralty should be the subject of a proper inquiry? We have heard about those figures. We know about the increase of cost, and I feel certain that if hon. Members would take into account the history of the War Office, and the attempts that were made by the political authority to get the administration and organisation of the War Office considered and explored, if they would remember the great difficulties that were encountered in doing that and the benefits that resulted, I am not at all sure that we would dismiss, at any rate lightly, the proposal that it might be very much to our advantage if something of the same kind took place at the Ad-
  1604
  miralty. What we have to try to do now is this. Are we building up a fighting force that is going on the assumption of all those considerations in the mind of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, or are we going to insist that while we have the opportunity, a policy shall be pursued of international disarmament conferences and so on? If the former, then history undoubtedly will repeat itself. It may be not in our lifetime, though it may. If the latter, the whole of the mentality which has been shown in some of the speeches to-day, admirable though they are from their own point of view, and interesting to listen to, is not the mentality that should control the naval policy of the Government. Nine months in office! Old hands at the job! This problem is staring them in the face—three weeks before the end of the Session, a little more than a fortnight before the House passes away its financial control, sitting there dumb, with no policy whatever, no supplementary Estimate, not quite sure that it can fulfil the solemn pledges it made to us earlier on. Someone has made a bungle, someone has mishandled the situation, and someone ought to be censured.
  Mr. LOOKER: The aspect of the question to which I wish to call attention does not relate in any way to any question of a possible war in which we may at any time find ourselves engaged, but to those protective duties which, whether in peace or in war, it is essential in an Empire like ours to maintain unimpared. Whatever opinion we may have as to the origin of the recent disturbance in the Far East, or whatever steps we may think it desirable to take now they have arisen, there is one point on which I think the Committee will be in general agreement, and that is that our people out there must have adequate protection. Almost without exception, our people there live on the waterways, or on the coast, under such conditions that the only protection they can have is naval protection. I should like to describe the conditions that prevail up the Yangtse River, where most of these disturbances took place. The length of that river, from Shanghai to Chungking, where disturbances of a serious nature took place the other day, is some 1,500 miles, and apart from Shanghai, included in that distance. there are six British Consulates and

  1605
  various other places where British interests are looked after. As far as 1,200 miles up, the river is navigable, and beyond that, for another 400 miles, there are considerable difficulties to navigation which are not easily overcome at any period of the year, and during the dry season are considerably increased. Beyond that lies Chungking, which is some 1,500 miles up. In addition to the position of our representatives and our people up there, there are on the coast some 12 British settlements. There is the West River, which, though not so long, contains much the same conditions as prevail up the Yangtse, and in every case of this description the only protection is that afforded by the Navy.
  Recent events will have served to bring out into sharp relief the dangers to which our people there are exposed. There will be general agreement that any protection we can give, to be effective must be prompt, and to be prompt must be permanent. These crises arise very suddenly. The need for protection arises with equal suddenness, and protection that is too late is, of course, no protection at all. Who can say how long the present state of affairs is going to continue? It may die down, or it may flare out, and even when it is over, who can say when some similar state of affairs is not going to necessitate the same active naval protection for our people as has been so vitally necessary during the past few weeks? A naval policy which aims at a minimum of permanent protection, or a protection which is based upon the needs of quiet times, is not protection whatever. Each port or place ought to be able to rely in time of trouble, without any doubt whatever, upon naval protection which can be sure of being there when wanted, in spite of any other urgent calls there may be upon it. The mere presence of naval protection at these places is not sufficient. It is necessary that they should be in a position to put on shore a landing party of such strength as will make sure that the lives of our people are protected from any emergency which may arise. I was astonished to see in the Press in the last three weeks that when some urgent trouble arose at one place, all the naval assistance that was sent to cope with the emergency consisted of a submarine. The submarines that there were in China some four or five years ago were utterly unable
  1606
  to render any form of landing party whatever.
  If our naval forces in China are ever at such a pitch that we are obliged to rely on submarines to protect our representatives and our interests out there, it will be time that the whole question was very seriously considered with a view to seeing whether we should not abandon any question of further protection, or give them the protection of which they stand in need. Anyone who has any knowledge of the conditions which exist out there and who read the actual state of our naval forces and their disposition when the recent troubles arose, must have been very gravely concerned at what they saw revealed as to the actual numbers and disposition of our ships in those waters. It was clear, on the face of it, that they were not nearly sufficient either in numbers or in character to fulfil the duties which it is an essential part of their function to perform.
  The coast ports can be reached very easily. They can be protected by the bigger ships. They can be reached in a very little time, and landing parties can easily be made available. The question of the river ports is quite a different matter, and our people out there will resent, and rightly resent, in my opinion, being obliged to rely for protection upon foreign bluejackets. They are entitled to the protection of our own men, on whom they rely, and not have to look to foreign Powers for that protection which our own Government ought to afford. The interests of our representatives, our people and our interests in that country essentially demand that the naval forces in Eastern waters shall be permanently and definitely increased in such manner and form that they can remain unaffected by any hostilities or any need for their services elsewhere.
  This is not a question of armaments. It is not a question of a one-power standard, and it is not a question, as has been suggested in certain quarters, of maintaining the interests of foreign capital by foreign guns; but it is a question of fulfilling an essential duty, not only to our own people, but also to our interests and for the safety of those engaged in connection with our trade in that country. I submit to the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Government that there are other considerations in

  1607
  addition to the interests of those who live in these eastern waters. If you want not merely to develop but even to maintain the immense trade which we do in China, which is capable of such vast extension, you must give adequate and permanent protection to all those who are engaged in it, and you must convince those with whom they are trading that you are determined to give that protection, if necessary, and that you are not departing from the policy which was pursued in past years, otherwise you may lead them to get into their heads the idea that your position in the East is not what it was, and that other nations have supplanted you.
  I say, with the greatest respect to my right hon. Friend and to that authority behind him, without whose sanction he cannot move, that, quite apart from any question of hostilities, not to permanently strengthen our Fleet in eastern waters would be to neglect our interests there in a manner for which I cannot see the slightest possible justification. I should like an assurance that this aspect of our naval-protected ports in the Far Ea6t is receiving the urgent attention of the right hon. Gentleman and His Majesty's Government.
  Major HORE-BELISHA: The Debate has pursued a very temperate course as a result of the example set by the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). In particular, the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) showed a conspicuous restraint, because it is not very long ago that he was being censured, not for building no cruisers at all, but for only building five. I think we should have to go back a pretty long way in English history to find a Government in the position in which this Government finds itself after nine months of office in not having decided whether it is going to build any cruisers or, if it is going to build cruisers, how many. The First Lord of the Admiralty finds himself in a very difficult and invidious position, which causes me to sympathise with him very deeply. The hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs), who always speaks with special authority on these matters, introduced a slightly controversial note. His arguments were similar to the very strong arguments
  1608
  addressed to the Admiralty in the last Parliament by the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Colonial Secretary. Where he was talking on the technical side, it would be impertinent for me to follow him, but when he came to the more pathological side of his argument, and conducted a disquisition into the vagaries of the Liberal mind, I think I am entitled to join issue with him.
  What he should have inquired into, and it would have been more appropriate, is the extraordinary nature of the Conservative mind, particularly because the Conservative party has, at any rate, consistently advocated a strong Navy. It has, without fluctuation, always put forward the claims of the Navy. It is only when it has gained office that it has forgotten its great enthusiasm in this regard; at any rate, forgotten it for nine months. Like the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone, I had to choose between support of the Conservative party or of the Liberal party, both of which he has supported in turn, and I came to the conclusion that it was better to support a party which performed than a party which protested. There is a supposed monopoly of enthusiastic affection, expressed affection, for the Navy on the other side, and they are quite welcome to continue to put forward highly exaggerated arguments on behalf of the Fleet, which they are the first to let down when they get into power.
  What is the genesis of this Debate? It gives an opportunity to His Majesty's Government either to announce their policy upon certain matters or to announce their alternatives to the policy that they have often put forward. It must not be forgotten that when the right hon. Gentleman who is now Secretary of State for the Colonies, put forward his large programme of construction, he justified it not only on the ground of naval and strategic necessity, but on the ground that it would give employment to 32,000 men. He deplored the fact that the last Government had so far failed in its duty that it had omitted to carry out more than half the programme that he had outlined, and he expressed very sincere sympathy with those men who had failed to obtain employment as a result of the delinquencies of the late Government. I want to know what the First Lord of the Admiralty is going to say this afternoon

  1609
  not only to those who hold that on strategic grounds our position is weak, but to those men who have been led to expect some sort of solution for their difficulties.
  I do not want unnecessarily to embarrass the First Lord of the Admiralty, but the Prime Minister very seriously embarrassed me when he came to Devon-port and told my electorate that if he got in they would have sixteen cruisers. I am entitled to ask, if the Government are not going to build those 16 or 17 cruisers within a period of three years, what are they going to do for these men? I do not want to dwell on the question of the dockyards, but I would ask whether the Admiralty have considered or intend to consider the alternative uses to which the dockyards could be put. I do not press that they should bleed the taxpayers unnecessarily, but I do press that if no alternative form of occupation for these men can be announced this afternoon that, at any rate, we shall have an announcement that their future is being considered. In Devonport there is nothing else for these skilled men to do. These men are the greatest use to the country. I suggested to the Admiralty that they should develop a scheme for house building, and I made other suggestions. I hope for the sake of these men we shall hear what the Government intend to do and what inquiries are being made in regard to their future prospects. I share with hon. Members who have preceded me, a desire to remove the Navy from partisan politics. A discussion of this kind shows how wrong it is to treat the Navy as a matter of party politics. Everybody, in every quarter of the House, has expressed exactly the same ideal.
  Viscountess ASTOR: No. What about the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon)?
  Major HORE-BELISHA: I am sure that the ideal expressed by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley was an ideal which must be shared by my Noble Friend and colleague in the representation of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor), namely, to keep this country secure at the least possible expense to the taxpayer. I do not know if there has been any divergence from that principle expressed, and I do not know whether anybody would wish to express divergence. In a matter of national
  1610
  defence there ought not to be party politics. The reason why party politics enter into these discussions is because nobody has ever discovered a principle upon which the Navy should be built. There is no controversy in business about an insurance premium. Everyone agrees that if you have a, business you must insure it. There is no controversy, because the principle is well established that to insure the value of your goods is essential. The British Empire ought to insure the value of its goods. If any principle is to be discevered in this matter, it surely must be related to the total expenditure upon our trade. Our import and export trade ought to bear some relation to our naval expenditure.
  I have looked into the figures ever since the Battle of Trafalgar as to our import and export trade, and I have looked at the figures that represent our expenditure upon the Navy. I wanted to find out what percentage we paid by way of insurance premium. The lowest we have ever spent is 1½ per cent. of our national import and export trade, and the highest we have ever spent is about 4i per cent. during the late War. It ought to be possible to determine some ratio which the expenditure on the Fleet should bear to the expenditure upon our import and export trade. It would have this great advantage that when our representatives went to the Naval Conference at Washington, instead of making the Navy a matter of party politics, instead of saying, "We will build so many battleships," and someone suggesting one less, or saying, "We will build so many cruisers," and someone suggesting one less or one more, we could say that every one of the Powers at the Conference should be entitled to spend upon its Navy for the next five or 10 years a certain proportion of the expenditure on its import and export trade. You can fix the ratio at 2½ per cent. or 2 per cent. or any other per cent., but there could then be no jealousy among the Powers because they would be all spending in exactly the same ratio.
  I merely put forward the suggestion for this reason. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nobody will accept it! "] If nobody will accept it, then peace can never be brought about, but it is at any rate more feasible than a bargain about tonnage that has no logical basis at all.

  1611
  America, if she has less sea-borne trade than ourselves, could not complain if we were spending more on our Navy, because it would not be logical. I do not say that my principle should be accepted. Perhaps there should be some other, but there ought to be something corresponding to the insurance risk which would enable the Admiralty to go ahead with its programme for five or 10 years at a time without this constant interference through General Elections, reasons of economy, and one thing or another, so as to enable the men whose job it is to discover how this country can be beet defended to do that without being criticised and interfered with in the manner in which they now are, because it is undesirable to maintain a body of experts at the Admiralty who are the only people who can judge the situation with all its delicate factors, and then get a lot of persons who do not know much about it, but who for partisan reasons think that less or more should be spent on a very essential service. I merely put that forward in the hope that some principle may be discovered in the future.
  There is a second principle with regard to trade. The trade which we protect is the trade of the Empire, not of England alone. Therefore, it is imperative that we should have greater and more intimate relationship with the Dominions when we come to settle these problems. Several hon. Members who have spoken in this House have called attention to the very heavy burden which our naval expenditure entails on the taxpayer. I have looked into the comparative figures for the Dominions, and I refer to them, not with any desire of drawing an invidious distinction between one Dominion and another, or between the Dominions and the Mother Country, but merely because I think that a principle could here be arrived at. We spent in Great Britain last year—it is more this year—£1 4s. 10d. per head of our population in naval expenditure. Canada spent 74 cents; the Commonwealth of Australia spent 8s. per head of the population; New Zealand, 8s.; and the Union of South Africa 1s. 9d. per head of the population.
  Mr. PENNY: Of the white population?
  Major HORE-BEUSHA: I have got the figures from the Colonial Office, and the question I asked was "per head of the population." That is the answer given to me, and I could not say whether it is the white population. Obviously, there is matter for investigation here. I also got the figures in relation to the trade of those Dominions, and I find that the amount spent for every £1,000 total export and import trade in England amounts to £25 3s. 9d. Canada, in respect of every 1,000 dollars of trade, spent 74 cents, the Commonwealth of Australia in respect of every £1,000 worth of trade spent £8 14s. 10d., New Zealand spent £5 5s. 8d., and the Union of South Africa £1 1s. 1d. If the Empire means anything, it should mean not only an inheritance of common rights and privileges, but also an inheritance of common responsibilities. The reason that I have given these figures per head of the population, and in relation to trade, is that one way or the other you must come to the conclusion that the Dominions are not bearing their full share of their responsibility. Not that they are unwilling to do so, but I doubt if the problem has ever been approached from a truly Imperial point of view. If the present system continues, it will pay parts of our Empire to fall away from Great Britain. It paid Ireland to go, and when Ireland went it meant that every taxpayer in this country had to pay more for the Navy.
  Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman specify how it paid Ireland to go away?
  Major HORE-BEUSHA: Because Ireland was contributing to the Imperial Exchequer towards the cost of the Navy.
  Sir W. SUGDEN: Has it paid Ireland in the matter of the Income Tax?
  Major HORE-BELISHA: Obviously, it must pay her to escape, whatever her obligations were, all her obligations, which amounted to at least 25s. per head of the population, in respect of the Navy. It is logical, and it would also pay Scotland to go, obviously, if she could thrust the whole burden of the expenditure for defence on the shoulders of England. Obviously, it would pay Wales to go. Therefore, you will get in the end to this position, that the moment

  1613
  the Scotsmen become canny enough to perceive the truth of what I am saying the total burden of armaments will fall upon this very small portion of this very small island in order to protect the trade of the whole Empire. I merely want to make the suggestion to the Admiralty that they should consider these two matters which I have brought forward, with a view to releasing on the one hand the Navy from purely party politics and, on the other hand, making the Navy a really Imperial concern. I hope that those matters will receive some consideration.
  I hope also that the First Lord will make some announcement on the question of marriage allowance of naval officers. I have had many letters on the subject, and only this morning I had a letter in which a naval officer said that he would sooner hear something than continue in suspense, and that if they were being played with and were not going to get this allowance let them be told so. The right hon. Gentleman is as anxious to do this as anybody can be and I hope that he will find an opportunity this afternoon for relieving our suspense in the matter.
  Lord ERSKINE: In the very few minutes during which I desire to detain the Committee, I would like to put the [joint of view of many of us on this side of the House who do really view with very great alarm and deep concern the great rise in expenditure, which is now over £800,000,000, and which of necessity is so largely contributed to by Navy Estimates. I think that there are a great many people on this side of the House who do believe that high expenditure will be to us as a country almost as dangerous as taking a risk with our Fleet, and those of us who think that and who even now would never advocate reducing our Fleet below the one-Power standard, do think that the Government might very seriously consider in reference to the question whether they are going to build cruisers this year or not, as to which is the greater risk. Is it a greater risk to pass over a year and then go on with the programme, or a greater risk to have naval Estimates of £f5,000,000 or £70,000,000 expenditure?
  I listened to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley
  1614
  (Sir J. Simon) and I thought that he, as a leader on the Wee Free Benches, who used to be a leader of the Liberal party, was, at any rate, an impeccable economist, but I am afraid that those ideas of mine were rather wrong, and my estimation of him went down because he seemed to produce no argument showing that he would economise on anything except on our fighting services. He asked, could any of us on this side tell him in what other Department of State we could economise except the fighting services, and he challenged anyone on this side to advocate any reduction in what is known as the social services.
  I believe that the great trouble about reducing expenditure is this, that everybody is prepared to reduce the expenditure about which he does not care, but once you touch the Estimate in which he is immediately interested he always holds up his hands in horror and says, "Reduce expenditure on everything except this, particular Estimate in which I am interested." I do not believe that we shall ever get economy—and we must get economy—if we follow out the proposition put forward by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley. As I understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman, he said that the only way in which we could economise was by reducing the fighting services, and not by spending less money on social services.
  Sir J. SIMON: I was taking about the reduction of expenditure, and I was saying that it appeared to me that, if the reduction of expenditure was going to be secured, one had to consider in what direction it was possible to secure it. It did not appear to me likely that we should find any reduction in the expenditure on what we call social service, and I indicated two possible branches, one of which was expenditure on fighting services and the other was the charge for the debt.
  Lord ERSKINE: I understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Apparently, he still takes the view that the only Departments of State in which economics can be made are the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Air Force.
  Sir J. SIMON: There is no good in talking about economy if you mean by it simply a desire to be economical. The question is a reduction of expenditure.

  1615
  Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will indicate m what Departments he does think a reduction of expenditure should be expected?
  Lord ERSKINE: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has again challenged us on this side to indicate Tin what direction we would cut expenditure. I tell him frankly, though he may not like it, that I shall be quite prepared to make a cut in education, because I believe that we are not getting value for the money which we spend on our Education Department, and I do deprecate, very strongly, the argument which falls from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on that side that the only Services in which a substantial cut can be made are the Departments which deal with the Fighting Services.
  Mr. OLIVER: Does the hon. Gentleman suggest a substantial reduction in education?
  7.0 P.M.
  Lord ERSKINE: I believe that a substantial reduction could be made in the Estimates for that particular Department. I would point this out to the Committee, that we cannot, in my view, go on raising £800,000,000. Perhaps I have strayed away from the subject with which the Debate deals, but I was really intending to answer the point of view, which I understood, was put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, that the main bulk of economies should be made on the Fighting Services.
  Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: Would the hon. Gentleman inform the House how much he would propose to cut from the Education Vote?
  Lord ERSKINE: I think I would be out of order if I went into detail with regard to education. But what will you get if we build a great number of ships? You will have a rise in naval expenditure. You will have large Estimates, and you will have this House faced probably with a proposition either of increasing taxation or of raiding the Sinking Fund. My own view of the problem at the present time is that the risk in both Departments is great. The naval risk is undoubtedly large. The financial risk is also large. The Government have in these difficult times to con-
  1616
  sider very carefully which risk they would rather incur. If they come down on the side of building more cruisers, if the experts of the Admiralty have been able to convince them that that risk is not worth taking, then I, and I have no doubt others with me, will vote for the Government. But we do ask them very seriously to consider before they have taken an irrevocable decision on this matter as to whether after the War, when we are spending this very large sum of money, it would not be better for the time being, at any rate, to regard the financial hardship as being rather greater.
  I have no desire to go over old ground, or to deal with those things which have already been spoken of, but I would ask the Admiralty whether they have ever considered the reintroduction to any ships of the old nucleus crew system which we had before the War. I know you cannot have nucleus crews for ships abroad, but have they considered having nucleus crews for some of the ships in the Atlantic Fleet? I am not, and do not pretend to be, an expert in these matters. I am only asking the First Lord a question. Would it be possible to save money by that means, and that money put into the building of the new cruisers? I think it is going to be very difficult for any Government to continue in these times of financial crisis Estimates of £70,000,000 a year and over. I want to see more ships, but I want to see them obtained for less money. I believe that by pruning the dockyards, pruning the Admiralty, reducing the large number of people at headquarters, we might be able to reduce the actual administrative staff, and therefore save money in that matter. I hope the Government will very seriously consider whether they can in these times continue to present Estimates of £70,000,000 every year to this House. [An HON. MEMBER: "What £70,000,000?"] I understand that the Estimates this year are £62,000,000. If a huge number of cruisers are built the Estimates will probably go into the region of £70,000,000, and that is why I use that figure. If those ships are built, we may get an Estimate next year for £72,000,000, and I ask them to consider whether, financially, we shall be able to continue to raise this very large sum of £800,000,000 a year without inflicting a tremendous disaster on others.
  Mr. AMMON:I for one have no regrets that the Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine) has just delivered the speech to which we have listened, and I will be very interested to know whether the Government will repudiate some of the statements, or whether they will say he speaks with the voice of the party opposite.
  Viscountess ASTOR: Certainly not.
  Mr. AMMON: I am very glad to hare the answer from the Noble Lady. [An HON. MEMBER: "And from others."] The Noble Lord has indicated that he is prepared to make big cuts in education and among the social Services. I should be very much surprised if that receives the support of the Government. It will be interesting to have, later on, an intimation whether or not they accept that proposal. I have compared somewhat wistfully the tone and temper of the Debate to those I remember last year when I was faced by my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary (Mr. Amery) on the one side, and when at the back of me I had some other friends who also were not quite satisfied in another respect. On the one side, my right hon. Friend was complaining that we had cut down the programme considerably, and on the other some of my friends were displeased by the programme I brought forward. The late Government can claim that in the short time it was in office, having taken up the Estimates prepared by its predecessors, it did at least make up its mind, put forward its programme, and submit it to this House for criticism.
  The present Government have been in office very nearly as long as the late Government Now they have not made up their minds, and we are discussing more or less in the dark what the naval programme is to be. I thought up to a little while ago that probably this Debate might prove of very little practical use, but the speeches of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay) and the Noble Lord opposite may, after all, prove that it has been worth while. Even from the Government Benches we have had a plea for economy, and at least to go slow in this matter rather than to attempt to rush into hasty expenditure. There was a speech made earlier in the afternoon by an hon. and gallant Gentleman to whom
  1618
  we listened with great pleasure, and who indicated that what we now had got to do was rather to build against the United States as our rival in naval armaments. I am hoping that that is not going to be the spirit which will enter into consideration of our naval programme, and that we will certainly not get that into our minds at all. That is the spirit which led to disaster in days gone by.
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: That is not what I meant. I regret if I have left a wrong impression.
  Mr. AMMON: I accept the hon. and gallant Gentleman's withdrawal. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is not a withdrawal!"] When an hon. Member draws attention to the fact that some other Navy has ships of higher armament, you can take no other line than that he is comparing it with our own armament and Navy for certain purposes.
  Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: Does the hon. Gentleman remember that my hon. and gallant Friend not only mentioned the United States, but practically every other naval Power in the world?
  Mr. AMMON: That emphasises the point I put, because, after all, the only point is that, so far as the United States are concerned, it is the Power possessing ships of faster speed.
  Sir A. HENNIKER-HUGHAN: No.
  Mr. AMMON: That all goes to emphasise what I am saying. I am very glad to have those interruptions while we are discussing the one-Power standard. The two-Power standard is evidently being aimed at by certain Members. There were other points, some of which were touched on by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald) with special reference to Singapore. That does have a very distinct bearing on the matter under discussion, and, as was pointed out in a Debate in another place a few days ago, the Government have not yet made up their minds what it is going to do with regard to that. That is surely another point on which we should receive information. May I ask: Is there going to be a floating dock as well as a graving dock at Singapore, and what amount is the nation to be committed to with regard to expendi-

  1619
  ture? We have had a suggestion that it is going to cost £10,000,000, but we know that is quite an under-statement as to the ultimate cost. You have to consider barracks, hospitals, coast defence arrangements, and defence against aerial attacks, which mean that three times £10,000,000 will not cover the expenditure if we are going to develop along those lines. The Committee is entitled at this stage to know how far we are going, and if the nation is to be asked to enter into it blind-folded.
  I venture with great diffidence to approach this from another point of view, a point which has only been tentatively touched upon in other Debates. We are told it is necessary that we must have this dock there to protect our trade routes in case of hostilities with other Powers. I will not touch on the threat this holds out to our former ally Japan.
  There is not much in the argument from the strategical point of view of the protection of our trade routes. Surely it docs follow with the outbreak of war all trade North of Hong Kong will automatically cease. Dominion trade, that is between Australia and New Zealand, does not for the most part pass through the Straits of Singapore, and could be diverted to a more Southerly route. We have to remember that eight weeks will elapse before the Fleet will get out to Singapore, and another three or four weeks before it will be able to go into the open sea, and by that time three months serious happenings will have ensued. Undoubtedly the first step of any hostile power would be an attempt to seize this base. Is there anything in the suggestion that it is a means of protecting Australia and New Zealand? We are told it is 3,000 miles from Japan, and we have a right to retort that, equally, it is 3.000 miles from Japan to Singapore. But it is also 5.000 miles from Sydney and 3,000 miles from Thursday Island, the nearest point on the Australian coast. There cannot be any substance in the proposal that this is being done as a means of protecting our Dominions in that direction. It has to be borne in mind that there is a strong division of opinion in our Dominions on this base, and one who may be the next Prime Minister of the Commonwealth has expressed very distinctly the view that
  1620
  they are not prepared to support this project in any particular.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Spen Volley (Sir J. Simon) a little while ago said that what mattered was the habit of thought which one got into, and some sections of the Committee apparently have not learned anything from the War, and are still thinking in terms of War mentality instead of seeing that we are in an entirely different world. At this moment we cannot afford great expenditure on armaments, and if ever there was a time when we should go slow, this is the moment, and we should certainly take steps to foster the peace spirit throughout the world. What has been the greatest assurance of peace between this country and the United States? There has been no greater assurance of that than the 3,000 miles of frontier between Canada and the United States on which there is not a single sentry or a single gun, and if one were placed there you would have the potentialities of war at any time. With regard to the value of Singapore from a strategic point of view, in the short time I was at the Admiralty, I formed the opinion, which has been reinforced since, that there is a considerable difference of opinion among experts as to the future and value of the capital ship. Each rival school disputes the prestige and the authority of the other. A joint paper was read in June of last year before the Institute of Naval Architects by Captain Munro, of the Royal Navy, and a civilian member, in which they had under review proposals with regard to Singapore. They foretold that the days of the capital ship were numbered, and that what we would need in the future was a mobile base, rather than a fixed shore base. In their paper they stated
  "In the light of the facts set forth in this Paper, should we not ask ourselves if we as a nation, would be doing the right thing if we were to instal at Singapore or elsewhere a permanent base on shore with an excavated dry dock that would take years to complete and cost a large sum of money, a great proportion of which would be spent abroad. Should we not rather provide at vastly less cost, the whole of which would be spent in British labour, a floating base, fully equipped, which in time of war or threat of war, could be readily transferred to whatever port or base the General Staff might deem best for carrying out its duties."

  1621
  I do not profess to be able to judge between experts, but it is fair to point out that there is this difference of opinion as to the value of the base, and at a time when every £l matters, we have no right to pour out money for something which may in a few years prove obsolete. I hope we shall have a full statement as to how far the Government intend to go, what is the scheme, and whether they have decided that there is to be both a graving dock and a floating dock at Singapore.
  There are one or two direct and specific suggestions I desire to make, which the First Lord may or may not think of value, with reference to the possibility of effecting economies without impairing the efficiency or strength of the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that the late Government had a small Committee consisting of the First Lord, the Parliamentary Secretary, and the Permanent Secretary, who were to overhaul the whole civil establishment, with a view to making reductions. They were impressed with the fact that it would be possible to make a large reduction in number of staff which had become considerably inflated. That work was interrupted, and I should like to know whether it is now being continued, and what possibility there is of reductions being made along these lines. The Estimates for the Navy are between £60,000,000 and £70,000,000, or more than half the total of £120,000,000 which this country votes for armaments, and one weakness in this connection since the War has been the practice of overbudgetting at the Admiralty. In the review of accounts for 1923–24, we find the total surplus to be surrendered amounted to nearly £4,000,000, which means that people were overtaxed to that extent for the Navy. Attempts were made by the last Government to cut down that surplus. Of recent years the surplus has varied from 5 per cent. to 11 per cent. of the Estimates. That is very high, especially when we have regard to the fact that the surrender in pre-War years amounted to only 1·5 per cent. There should be closer budgetting in this respect, and one would like to know what steps, if any, have been taken in regard to this matter. We are now getting back to proper estimating, but in 1924–25 the overhead cut then made was £3,000,000
  1622
  on the assumption that there would be a surplus. With that overhead cut made on the Estimates, it was unnecessary to come to the House for a Supplementary Estimate, except for the Sutton judgment, which could not have been foreseen, and which was extraneous to ordinary Admiralty expenditure. I have been informed by those in touch with these accounts that we could make a further cut of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 on the overhead charges, which is a suggestion worth going into, and one which should commend itself to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Referring further to the subject of economy, I suggest that it is now time that all the War remanets were cleared up. During the War, the Admiralty advanced considerable sums to naval contractors for supplies, the erection of buildings, and so forth. Settlements have been effected on a large scale, but there are still some important items outstanding. What is the position in regard to this matter? Is every effort being made to get the best settlements in the interests of the taxpayer? One would also be glad to know definitely if it is the case that we have advanced a considerable step with regard to control over naval expenditure. I understand that the Permanent Secretary to the Admiralty is now to be the Accounting Officer, and is to appear before the Public Accounts Committee, and other authorities. This of course, means that the House of Commons will be able to get as near as possible to a policy in matters of importance, and exercise a more direct control than has been exercised in days gone by. There are some other questions which I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman. What is the position between the Government and the United States naval authorities regarding the exchange of petrol effected during the War? What is the aggregate amount of money involved, and what is the amount obtained by Great Britain. One would also like a statement on coal and oil fuel, and the financial effects of the use of oil, and perhaps the Minister will make a statement regarding the policy of working down surplus stocks, the object being to reduce immediate expenditure. Will he also explain the position in reference to the deterioration or diminution of stores left over from the War. All these

  1623
  matters have remained with us since the War, although that period is now so far removed, and it is not necessary to emphasise the effect which they have on the expenditure of the nation and the importance of having them cleared up satisfactorily.
  May I emphasise the point raised by the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague). I know nothing about the matter to which he made special reference, but it is a subject of first-class importance, and it is likely to give rise to much misunderstanding and great disturbance of mind among the industrial population, particularly at a time when people are touchy and anything is likely to happen. I hope, therefore, we shall have a definite statement as to the allegation that the Navy is to be called upon to act in the interests of one side in a dispute. I hesitate to think that such is the case. But a statement from the right hon. Gentleman made with authority contradicting it would very much ease the situation. I hope if the First Lord will heed not so much the criticism from the Opposition he will have regard to the criticism from his own benches, and the suggestion that this is the particular moment when we can stay our expenditure with regard to armaments. Our cruiser outlay is largely experimental, and I see that already criticirms are being made with regard to a ship recently launched. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Surely all the indications point to the fact that there is no need to go in for large scale expenditure on armaments at the present time, and that we can make the necessary experiments on a smaller scale. The money which we would save in this respect is much more needed for social legislation, and meantime, by the use of the machinery of the League of Nations we might do much to render unnecessary in the days to come any increase in our armaments.
  Major GLYN: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned one point on which I think we are all united. I think every hon. Member recognises that the present time is the opportunity, if not for a naval holiday, at any rate for a naval respite. We must try to look upon this matter, not from the technical point of view, but as Members of Parliament to recognise that we can
  1624
  never assist the Government if we are perpetually asking them to spend money in certain ways. It is much more difficult to speak from this side of the House than from the other side in regard to the Navy. I have most of my life been in one of the Services, and since I have been in this House I have co-operated with those who work for the good of the three Services. We are perfectly convinced that before very long the question of eliminating unnecessary expenditure, especially in regard to the purchasing of stores, must be taken up. I see no reason why there should be three Medical Departments, one for the Navy, one for the Army, and one for the Air Force, and I see no reason why we should have the absurd spectacle of the War Office competing against the Air Ministry in regard to land purchase. It is the wretched taxpayer who has to pay. It may be very amusing to the representatives of the Land Departments of the two Services, but it does not help the defence of the country, and all these matters want going into, because I am convinced that there are many ways in which economies could be effected.
  I am not a naval expert—there are plenty in this House whose views we get, and they are of great interest—but I believe the business of this House is to try to arrive at some figure, either based on something, or at any rate some figure in the mind, which should represent the total amount of money that we should give to the various Services for expenditure. I believe that it would be well, if it were possible, for this House to say to the Admiralty: "You will have £45,000,000, or £55,000,000, or whatever the figure may be, and you must spend that money as you think best. We will back you up; we are not experts; you are paid to be the experts, and you have that money absolutely certain; and if you think that Sheerness, or Chatham. or Pembroke should be done away with, do away with them, and we will back you up." But what ruins Admiralty policy is that now, when they want to do something, political pressure is brought to bear in this House which prevents them doing so. Therefore, we are the last people in the world to throw stones at Admiralty experts in this matter. It is a pernicious system, which we all want to stop.
  There is one point, in regard to the immediate question of the construction

  1625
  of these cruisers, that I wish to put. I am astonished that no Labour Member has mentioned it, because we heard of it all the time during the election when they said that the national wealth of this country was not only cash, but the skill of the British workman. The Labour Members in the elections never ceased telling us that, and they are perfectly right, but what is happening now? On the Clyde, on the Tyne, at Barrow, and elsewhere our skilled workmen are leaving this country and going to other countries. They are going to the United States, and getting good wages and steady employment, and what I see is this danger, that when the time comes to lay down ships, either on the Clyde or on the Tyne, the machinery will be there, the management will be there, and we shall have the will that they shall build these ships, but the skilled men will not be there. That is a point. which concerns all of us, hot from a naval, technical point of view, but from the point of view of the general efficiency of the country as a potential workshop to turn out what we must have in times of emergency, and I think we must seriously consider whether, from that point of view, it would not be possible to spread over the orders and to let certain of the yards on the Clyde and the Tyne know that they will get a cruiser, say, at the end of this year and probably another to follow the year after. They would then know where they were. It does not cost money to the taxpayer to spread the orders over in that way.
  The right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), with almost every word of whose speech I agreed, pointed out that we have to take into account at the present time that there are great changes taking place, but unfortunately, since, the 10,000 tons was fixed by the Washington Conference, it means that that maximum has become the minimum. Everybody regrets that, and the gallant Admiral the Member for Galloway (Sir A. Henniker-Hughan) was just as ready to see 7,000 tons fixed. Whatever the figure may be, directly a great International Conference fixes something as the maximum, it immediately becomes the minimum. If we are sincere in desiring economy and in wishing to assist the Government—and after all we have been returned to try to carry out certain things—
  1626
  I believe we shall get efficiency and economy if we can devise some means of spreading out the orders for these cruisers in such a way that we will give our skilled men occupation and keep them in this country. I cannot understand why the Labour party have never said a word about that in this Debate. It is, to my mind, essential that we should recognise the difficulty. I do not want to provide work by building battleships if we can build something else, but if you build battleships, surely it is the time to place and spread the orders, because it will give employment and enable the builders to purchase steel plates, and so on, on very favourable terms.
  I believe, further, that if we can arrive at this understanding, that we should offer a lump sum to the Admiralty, and tell them to spend up to that sum in the way they consider will produce the greatest efficiency, and we, as Members of the House of Commons, will bind ourselves, not for political purposes, as I believe the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) had an interest in the dockyard at Pembroke—I do not believe Pembroke would have been in existence to-day, had it not been for political pressure—
  Major PRICE: I totally disagree with that. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for the Dominions came down to the constituency and stated that he was in favour of retaining Pembroke, and he was instrumental in retaining Pembroke. Therefore, we had a consensus of opinion on Liberal and Conservative benches that Pembroke was necessary.
  Major GLYN: That shows the danger one gets into in attempting to be at all expert in this House. I am not an expert, and I know nothing about Pembroke, but if you could leave that to the Admiralty experts, it would be a possible means of getting economy. If you want to get economy, trust your experts, and do not go in for amateur experts in this House. We are not here as experts, but as Members of Parliament, and we should be very bad Members if we were experts. We are not representatives of any section or any type, and, therefore, I thought something should be said on this side to show that we want to support the Government in maintaining an efficient Navy, and we want also to assure them that we will back them up if they will let the

  1627
  Admiralty produce what they consider necessary up to and within certain definite lines.
  Mr. MORRIS: The noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine), in answer to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), who had asked him, if he were going to reduce expenditure upon any Department other than the fighting forces, what Department he would begin with, made a very interesting admission that he would reduce expenditure upon the Education Department. He did not say by how much he would reduce it, but he said he was prepared to reduce it by a substantial amount. It would be interesting to know what Departments other than the Education Department he would be prepared to recommend for a reduction of expenditure.
  Lord ERSKINE: I would be quite prepared to ration all the Departments.
  Mr. MORRIS: Would the Noble Lord be prepared to reduce the expenditure, for instance, on the Ministry of Health?
  Lord ERSKINE: As I told the right hon. Member, if the financial situation becomes extremely acute, I flunk we shall have to ration all the Departments.
  Mr. MORRIS: The expenditure of money on these cruisers is often justified, and has been justified by the Prime Minister, and from time to time by the Colonial Secretary, on the ground that it is necessary to spend this money in order to afford employment to a large number of men. I believe the number has been given at various time6 at about 32,000 men. It is an interesting admission from the Noble Lord opposite that, if you are looking for spheres in which to cut expenditure, he would select as one of them the Ministry of Health. Take the Report of the Medical Officer to the Ministry of Health for last year. Whatever your views about unemployment or strikes and lock-outs may be, it is a fact that during the whole of last year strikes and lock-outs were responsible for the loss of 1,250,000 working weeks in the whole country, but, according to this Report of the Ministry of Health Medical Officer, ill-health was responsible for the loss of 20,000,000 working weeks. Surely, therefore, if the Noble Lord wishes to do something to remedy unemployment and justify this Vote on that basis, the Ministry of Health is one
  1628
  of the last Departments where he can recommend a reduction of expenditure, au expenditure which is totally justifiable.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy): I really do not think the Ministry of Health is under discussion at the present time.
  Mr. MORRIS: I bow to your ruling, Captain FitzRoy. It is not under discussion, but it is relevant in view of the fact that this Vote is often justified on the ground that it does something to solve the problem of unemployment. The Noble Lord, in defending this Vote, mentioned a few figures. The actual estimated expenditure for this year is, I believe, £60,500,000, but the Noble Lord mentioned £62,000,000 or possibly up to £70,000,000 as being the estimated expenditure. That can only be justified if the state of the country demands that that money should be spent. I have in my hands a Report drawn up by the Committee on National Expenditure in 1922. What do they say about naval expenditure in that Report? They say:
  "The Admiralty have clearly given the deepest thought to the production of a thoroughly equipped force to meet immediately any possible naval contingency. Their plans seem to us to take too little account of the period of peace which they have been instructed to anticipate, and of the present serious financial condition of the country."
  That was in 1922, and the condition of the country was then, in the opinion of that Committee, the Chairman of which was himself an ex-Lard of the Admiralty, so serious that it did not justify the Naval Estimates of that year. What has happened since then? The expenditure on naval armaments has been going up year after year. The financial position of the country is becoming increasingly serious. The opinion I have quoted is not the opinion of those who have an instinctive dislike of expenditure on armaments, but it is the opinion of people whose business it was to investigate and to make an impartial report on the question of the general safety of the country. This is not a matter entirely for experts. If it were, I would have no right to take part in the Debate. This is a question of national policy. Are the Members of the Government agreed that expert advice calls for any additional money being found for naval armaments? If they are so agreed, why have they not

  1629
  declared their policy? Why are we carrying on this Debate without a word so far as to what the Government position is, whether the figure of £62,500,000, as in the Estimates, or the additional figure of £70,000,000 is necessary? There is one simple test by which we must consider whether the expenditure is justified or not. That simple test is supplied by Article 8 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. The simple test there is that we must reduce our armaments to the lowest point consistent with national safety. Is there anyone on the Government side who will tell us that that point has been reached and passed?
  Mr. BOOTHBY: It has long been passed.
  Mr. MORRIS: That is interesting. Why are the Government unable to make up their mind? Let me return to the question of unemployment. We are spending this year, taking only the Navy Vote into consideration, the equivalent of £l 12s. per head of the population. If we take the whole armament Vote into consideration we are spending £4 15s. 7d. per head. The total expenditure of this country in all Departments is something like £26 per head of the population. A quarter of that total is being spent upon armaments. Against whom are we preparing? The condition of Europe has changed entirely. The only thing permanently with us is the race in armaments and in preparations for the next war. The Government have clearly two defences —one which has not seriously been put forward, that we have gone below the safety margin provided for in Article 8 of the Covenant; and the other a thing that cannot be put forward seriously, namely, that this would do anything at all to solve the problem of unemployment. As to the latter, it may do so as far as a number of people connected with the dockyards are concerned, but the money to provide those people with employment must come out of the pockets of the taxpayers and out of the industry of the country. We have heard a great deal lately about the money that is being spent on unemployment insurance overburdening the industry of the country. That money has to be provided at the expense of the development of industry. I agree with the suggestion that we should convert a number of these dockyards for civil production. That would create a larger
  1630
  amount of employment. No justification whatever has been offered for the expenditure of this large sum on naval armaments.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: I want to say one word about the speech of the hon. Member who has just spoken. It resembled very closely the speech delivered by the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) who opened this Debate. It was full of vague generalities about war and the necessity for the financial situation being kept constantly under consideration by the Government. But there was not one practical suggestion in it as to how any economy could be effected, nor was there any such suggestion in the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley. They did not attempt in any detail to deal with Admiralty administration, or the policy which governs the direction of our naval strategy. I do not see what is the use of speeches of that kind. The right hon. and learned Member deliberately misstated the facts, and distorted the whole situation. The hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon), late Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, began by discoursing at some length upon Singapore, and his chief argument was that Singapore was so far from Japan and from Australia that it could be used neither for offensive operations against the one, nor for defensive operations on behalf of the other. I submit that the purpose of Singapore never has been for offensive operations against Japan or for purely defensive operations on behalf of Australia. Its purpose is solely to defend our export and import trade, and our trade routes. Unless we have a harbour or base upon which in times of crisis we can base light cruisers on other ships, we should lose once for all the control of the whole of our Far Eastern trade routes, and we should lose the whole of that trade upon which the safety of this nation must depend.
  Mr. THURTLE: Will the hon. Member tell us against whom we have to protect our trade?
  Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the present dock at Singapore provides accommodation for light cruisers?
  Mr. BOOTHBY: The present dock is not sufficient for the new 10,000-ton cruisers, and certainly not for battle-cruisers, and in certain circumstances it might be essential for us to send battle-cruisers to Singapore. Singapore is not levelled at Japan. In the last War the greatest difficulty with which we had to contend was raiding by German cruisers. From 20, to 30 cruisers and other light craft were required to hunt down those raiders. Germany is in the most unfortunate geographical position, of all the countries in the world, for sending raiders out into the ocean, because her coastline is so short. If we went to war with any other nation in the world, that nation would find it far easier than Germany did to send raiders into the Pacific. Unless we have a base at Singapore on which we can base light cruisers or battle-cruisers, we cannot be in a position to hunt down commerce raiders. A couple of raiders sent out by any Power in the world—not Japan—to those waters, would hold up and sink the whole of our large British trade, unless we had Singapore on which to base our cruisers. You have only to look at the strategic position and the proposition becomes self-evident. In Japan no one has ever considered, or considers to-day, that Singapore is in any way a menace to them. In that respect the late Financial Secretary to the Admiralty was right. No naval officer would contend that you could carry out offensive operations against Japan from Singapore. The lines of communication would be far too great. The hon. Member for North Camberwell said that capital ships were probably obsolete. I shall be satisfied on that point when I hear that any capital ship has ever been damaged, much less sunk, by enemy aircraft action. Such a thing never happened in the last War, and it has yet to be proved that it can be done. When Admiralty tests have been carried out, and other nations have come to the same conclusion, I shall believe that the capital ship is no longer the basis of naval power; but until then we must build up our Navy upon the capital ship basis.
  Rear-Admiral SUETER: Has the Ron. Member not heard about the experiments with aircraft bombs on old German battleships by the United States? One 2,000 lbs. bomb sank a battleship.
  Mr. BOOTHBY: But that was not in. war-time. Is the Department of the Navy in the United States satisfied that a battleship is very vulnerable to aircraft attack on sea? I do not know. Until the Navy Department has come to that opinion, we cannot accept it. I do not imagine that there was anyone in that battleship firing back at the aircraft. That would have made a considerable difference. I think the speech of the Leader of the Opposition was an. extremely interesting speech and very helpful and instructive. He made one point clear—that we can no longer consider naval policy purely from an Admiralty point of view, but that we must consider it also from the point of view of the Air Ministry and the War Office, and, above all, from the point of view of the Foreign Office. There are in fact four Departments affected, and the policy of those Departments must be co-ordinated into one by the Cabinet as a whole. I believe that that is the main reason which has caused the delay in the announcement of our cruiser programme. The Admiralty quite obviously are fully aware of what they require. Their request is well known to all, and they have put it forward doubtless with great skill and care. I respect the Government for the delay in their announcement. I hope they will not announce their final cruiser programme until they have co-ordinated the policy of the four Departments, and are unanimous.
  8.0.P.M.
  Let me say a few words about the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha). He made a most valuable suggestion when he said that it was time for us to consider very carefully with the Dominions every aspect of naval power. He stated that the Dominions at the present time are not undertaking their fair share of Imperial defence at sea. That is a fact which is admitted by every responsible Dominion statesman. I am not at all satisfied that to have separate fleets is altogether the best way of achieving naval efficiency. I would rather like the First Lord to tell us to-day whether he considers that the existence of a separate Australian fleet of two cruisers and a few other small craft is conducive to general naval efficiency? Does he not think that the Australian Government would do better to send a certain number of officers and men for training with, and to be incorporated in, our own

  1633
  Fleet, and, if necessary, to serve in the Australia and China squadrons? I do not know to what extent there may be overlapping or co-ordination in the Far East between the Commanders-in-Chief on the China and the Australian stations, but I am certain that to have a separate fleet far such a small unit must lead to more extravagance than is necessary to meet the exigencies of the naval situation. I most seriously plead for a substantial cruiser programme, but I do not think it would be justifiable to submit it unless the First Lord is satisfied that he can effect no further economies in his own Department, and where the dockyards are concerned. The figures given earlier in the Debate were very startling. Is the First Lord satisfied that the civil staff at the Admiralty is cut down as much as it could be? Nobody would wish to see any reduction in the Operations Division, the Plans Division, the Intelligence Division, and the Gunnery Division. It is vital to keep them well staffed, but when you come to the Department of the Engineer-in-Chief, the Director of Naval Ordnance, and particularly that of the Civil Engineer-in-Chief, the Director of the Contract and Purchase Department, and the Naval Store Department, the staffs are very formidable to look at. Is the First Lord quite satisfied that the demands of the Fleet necessitate such a large staff, because undoubtedly the Fleet has been very much reduced since before the War. I am perfectly satisfied that further economies could be effected in the Admiralty.
  As regards the question of dockyards, we must consider that our main Fleet is in the Mediterranean. To support an Atlantic Fleet, consisting of one Battle Squadron, the smallest Fleet we have had in home waters for years and years, we have Rosyth, Sheerness, Chatham, Portsmouth, Devonport, Pembroke, and Portland. Does the First Lord not consider that the list is a little long? I grant that men might have to be thrown in the streets through being put out of work, but you have got to be hard-hearted in these matters sooner or later, and if the First-Lord would close down Chatham and Sheerness, which are perfectly useless from the naval point of view, I ask him to consider whether those dockyards could not be used for some other produc-
  1634
  tive form of work. Establishments both at Malta and Gibraltar have had to be increased, and we have had to embark on a dock at Singapore, which I hope will in the first instance be developed as a commercial dock. I think these points might receive his grave attention.
  I want to ask the First Lord how the naval Air arm is doing in conjunction with the Fleet. Has he had reports from the Atlantic Fleet as to how things are working? The matter is vital to the Fleet at sea. Naval gunnery is a more complicated and technical subject than any other in the world, and a naval officer has much less to learn in flying than an air officer has to learn in gunnery. If we are not to have anything in the nature of a Ministry of Defence, the time is not very far off when the naval branch of the Royal Air Force will have to be handed over to the Admiralty. I believe, unless the First Lord can give us an assurance that the Commander-in-Chief and the Rear Admiral commanding the Battle Cruiser Squadron in the Atlantic Fleet are satisfied with the naval Air arm, that the House will probably insist that the Navy, which is our first line of defence and is absolutely vital to our nation, should have control over an arm which, since the War, has become vital to our shooting efficiency.
  With regard to cruisers, what the Committee must realise is that to-day, as a result of the Washington Conference, we are faced with a cruiser situation which is exactly comparable to the "Dreadnought" situation of 1906. By that Conference we rendered every single cruiser we had got obsolete, and the only thing to do is to replace them if we are to carry on as an Empire at all. It is childish for the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley to say that we are replacing Fords by Rolls-Royces. How can you race a Rolls-Royce with a Ford? He was guilty of another fallacy. We are not replacing one Ford by one Rolls-Royce; we are replacing 20 Fords by one Rolls-Royce, which is a very different affair. A short time ago I was in Jamaica, when I saw a squadron of four little cruisers, built purely and solely for North Sea work, and absolutely unfitted for the job they had got out there. Will not the Financial Secretary seriously consider the question of keeping midshipmen in these foreign stations, where they can-

  1635
  not get proper accommodation on these cruisers? It is absolutely scandalous. These cruisers are only fit for one thing, and that is showing the flag. The Admiral does not attempt to use them as for tactical units. They are ships which can neither fight nor run away, as Lord Fisher used to say. I appeal to the House to remember these facts before they start talking economic hot air, such as has come in such blasts from the Liberal benches to-day. It is my firm belief that more cruisers we must have.
  Viscountess ASTOR: We have had a most interesting Debate and it gets more interesting as it goes on. I should like to dissociate myself from the speech of the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine). In all Parliaments I think we like to get away from the speeches which members of our own party make. I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha) would not defend the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). Ho made several extraordinary statements. First, he said that cruiser-building was non-productive expenditure, which the hon. and gallant Member for Devonport showed was quite wrong, as we build for insurance. Secondly, he said that to go to a dockyard constituency and tell them their futures depended on shipbuilding was a doctrine of despair. Those who know about the Navy realise that it is not only ships but the men in them that matter, and although you can make a soldier in a very short time, you cannot make a sailor. Thirdly, he advised delay now and rapid building later on. The hon. and gallant Member for Devonport and I have members of our parties whom we can shake off in despair. The hon. and gallant Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender-Clay) said the time had come for the country to co-ordinate its defences, and I agree that the sooner we do it the better it will be, Here we have a new force, an Air Force, and the more it is left to itself the bigger it gets and the more swollen-headed it becomes. The officers too, have got a marriage allowance which the officers of the Navy have not got in spite of an older tradition and a stronger moral.
  1636
  Why the hon. and gallant Member for Tonbridge should select only the Admiralty as having increased in numbers I do not know. Why does he not ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there has been an increase in the number of Treasury officials, and why does he not ask the same question with regard to the Foreign Office? He will find increases in both of those Departments since the War far greater than in the Admiralty. I would not encourage increases, but I think we ought to look into all the circumstances. The hon. and gallant Member should not just pick on the Admiralty alone. When people talk about the Navy and try to compare us with other countries it is quite impossible. You cannot compare us with any other country in the world. The hon. and gallant Member for Devonport talked about the Colonies. I think the position is that they should look into the matter and, if the Navy is essential to their lives, it is absolutely essential that they should contribute more. I am sure they would like to do it, for this little country has the biggest burden in the world. Hon. Members compared our cruisers to the French, the American and the Italian cruisers, but surely they know the English cruisers did more than all of them. Even the American forces were brought to England guarded by English cruisers.
  Regarding Singapore, it was put to the late Government that if you only wanted to defend the Mediterranean you could do it with half the ships you had, but if you want to defend your trade routes, then you must have Singapore. I think the late Government did extraordinarily well about that, although they did not, perhaps, always please some of the back benches. Everyone of right sense knows that we all desire peace, but this is hardly the moment to expect it. Look at China. Look at Russia. Look at the world. We speak about getting into a different frame of mind. We in England have got a proper frame of mind and a proper outlook so far as war is concerned, but it does not seem to me that a great many of the countries have. I hope very much that the Government will press on with disarmament, but it would be futile to disarm so long as you have Russia refusing to come to a conference and China in the state she is. In view of these things I look upon the Navy as the greatest safeguard for the peace of the

  1637
  world to-day. I am perfectly certain that the essential thing for this country, for Great Britain, to do to-day is to get once more into conference with the United States with regard to cutting down the naval expenditure. Why should either country go on with useless expenditure? They should sit down and make up their minds as to what the building programme of the world should be, and if they can do that, I am sure they will give a lead to the other countries of the world. At this moment it is a different thing wanting peace to getting peace. It is quite an easy thing to speak about; it is very difficult to attain.
  I trust the Government will consider the position of the dockyard towns. I admit quite frankly that I represent a dockyard town, but I do not represent that only. I hope I represent a point of view bigger than a dockyard town. If, however, we have to go in for general economy, let the Admiralty look to it. Hut it is not fair to keep the dockyard towns in a state of suspense. The authorities should make up their minds what they are going to do; whether they are going to keep the dockyards or not. I speak on behalf of Plymouth, like the hon. Member opposite; but, even then, if it were for a great national good, I would rather go down and fight for that great national good than for any small or local cause. I believe also, as has been said, that we have got machinery in the dockyard at Plymouth as good as Krupps, and if anything could be done to employ the men it would be a perfect godsend. We have to-day 10,000 men unemployed who have always been dependent upon the dockyard, and the present state of suspense is very real and very hard upon them. I should like the Government to take note of the married officers' allowance.. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone, because I am perfectly certain that he is the nigger in the woodpile. That is an expression used in Virginia. I feel quite satisfied that in this case the right hon. Gentleman is the nigger. I should ask him just to remember where we as a party stand. We know that the Unionist party has got many things to its discredit and a great many things to its credit. But the Unionist party have always stood by the Navy. I quite honestly say that it is a great pity to make the Navy a party
  1638
  question. People of all parties take an interest in it—but look at the Committee at present; hardly anybody here!
  Mr. MAXTON: They are very well selected.
  Viscountess ASTOR: Here we are discussing what every Member professes to be interested in. We on this side of the House stand up for what is essential. Let me get back to what I was saying, that our party stand really more than any other party for the Navy. I hope the Government will not let down the married officers in respect to their allowance. Let them remember the wives of the officers. I have spoken often on this point, but the position is almost inconceivable to anybody who does not know what these women have to put up with. It is no good admirals coming here and telling us what they did in 1840. In those days it was held that a young man ought not to get married in the Navy until he became a lieut.-commander. It is a different thing to-day. A great many things have happened since then. Our children have somewhat different ideas. It does not matter how much the older admirals talk about what the young men did in their day. It is far better that the younger men should marry than that we should go back to the old story that a sailor had a sweetheart in every port. We have made real progress. We have made moral progress. I do hope that at the Admiralty they will consider these things. I have, perhaps, taken up too much time, but I have waited a long time. I do not want anybody to think that I am not more interested in anything else than in peace, in conferences, in the League of Nations and everything that is going to make for peace. But we must face the world situation. The British Empire and the United States should get together. America, I believe, will some day come into the League of Nations, and if the two countries got together we could give a lead to other countries towards peace.
  Mr. CHARLETON: I feel somewhat anxious about the circular which has been referred to this afternoon, and which deals with the Navy being used in connection with strikes. This Committee, I think, will agree that the responsible leaders of the trade unions have been going through a very anxious

  1639
  time, and nothing is to be desired that would stir up animosity. I speak on behalf of the railwaymen, who have just been asked to submit to cuts in wages. We want our members to consider this matter dispassionately, but we must also remember that many thousands of our members have been using arms on behalf of the country, and they have, perhaps, got into a condition something like that of the Irishman, that if they see a fight they want to be in it.
  Nothing should be done to irritate the men at this times of crisis. Yet we have this circular, which deals with the remuneration of the ratings in the Navy when used to displace the personnel of the railways if these men are on strike. The point which I want to put is this: That, so far as I am able to understand the Order, it provides that the ratings, say an A.B., if used on the railways will get somewhere near about, with extra pay and maintenance allowance, £8 per week, and they will be displacing men who are getting round about 50s. per week at present. Unless we get a real denial from the Minister, the railwaymen will think that that is in the nature of a bribe to induce these men to do this work. There is another point I should like to make, and that is, that these same men of the Navy, if unloading on one of their own vessels, would not get anything like the pay they would get for similar work on the railways. It must not be understood that we Labour men do not feel concern about the conveyance of food. We recognise that, if we were in office and there was a national railway strike, we should have to see that the country was fed.
  I would like to remind the Minister that we have just celebrated the centenary of railways. During that 100 years there have been only two national all-grade strikes in this country. Ours are not men to go on strike. Our men are law-abiding men. We, get small spasmodic strikes, small disagreements now and then, but nothing serious. But I submit we are now in a very grave crisis. As the Committee know, measures have been taken to bring the railway-men, the engineers, the miners and the transport workers into one great unity for, perhaps, offence as well as defence. It would be very unfortunate if at a
  1640
  time like this anything was done that would raise the suspicion of our men, and might tend to irritate them, so that they did things that aferwards all would regrat. I hope, therefore, that when the Minister replies, he will give the assurance that the men of the Navy will not be used on the railways for strikebreaking purposes. Conveyance of foodstuffs is quite another matter.
  Major Sir HERBERT CAYZER: I would like to say a few words in this Debate, not only because all my life I have been taught that a strong and efficient Navy is essential to this country, but because I happen to be one of those Members representing one of the much-maligned dockyard towns we have heard about. I can at least say that I am true to the traditions of the "Silent Service," because it is not often that hon. Members hear me. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said that 10,000-ton cruisers could not be said to be replacing the existing class of cruisers, because the new cruisers were of a different type altogether; he likened it to replacing Ford motor cars with Rolls-Royce cars. I quite understand that he realised that his own party knows more about the land than the sea, but, after all, we are not talking about motor cars, but about ships. If we had to compete against Rolls-Royces it would be no good building Fords. As other powers are building Rolls-Royces of maximum size of 10,000 tons, it is essential for us to do likewise. It has been said that this cruiser programme is a panacea and a help for the solution of the unemployment question. I believe naval construction a question that is big enough to stand on its own bottom, and should not be confused with the unemployment question in way whatever. We have got to ask ourselves, "Is this programme necessary, and can we afford it?" Personally I think that whatever the can or cannot afford, the one thing it must afford is an adequate and an efficient Navy. I do not mind what we have to cut, social schemes, pensions, insurance, housing, education, we may have to reduce them all, but we must have an efficient and an adequate Navy. I do not want a bloated and overgrown Navy, but one that will meet our requirements, that is, support our capital ships and protect our commerce and trade. It is no good

  1641
  spending money on social services if we are not going to take the trouble to protect them. The Navy is the insurance for all these social services. If a man owns a house, however hard times may be, the one thing he does not do is to let his insurance policy lapse. We as a country are hard up, we are going through bad times, but whatever we do we must not allow our insurance policy to lapse, we must keep up an efficient Navy.
  When the question is, "Can we afford it, or can we economise in any way?" I am all with the people who argue for economy. I think that economies can be effected throughout the whole of the Services especially the Civil Services. The active personnel of the Navy in 1914 numbered 145,000; to-day the number is 102,000, a reduction of one-third. The administrative staff in 1914 numbered 5,800, and to-day they number 8,500. In other words, in 1914 we required one man in an administrative capacity for every 25 men on the active list, and to-day we require to have one man for every 12 on the active list. In other words, it now takes two men of the Administrative Staff to do the work that one did in 1914. The cost of the Admiralty Office was £483,000 in 1914, and it has gone up to £1,250,000 to-day. One could save a certain amount, as these figures show, which would go a long way towards one cruiser, at any rate. I believe if pretty firm lines were taken throughout all the Services, especially the Civil Services, we could find enough money to safeguard this country so far as the Navy was concerned. I regret that the Naval Estimates have been delayed, because they are the thing that, first and foremost, ought to be put before this House. Nothing should be allowed to come before the Naval Estimates. We have had produced a pension scheme which will cost the country a great deal of money, and I am not certain that money is not being spent on it which ought to have been spent on the Navy. Industry is being hit by that scheme, and is bearing enormous taxation; and if we do not get these cruisers, the trade and commerce routes of this country will not be safeguarded. Both as regards taxation and guarding the trade routes, the future of industry must be considerd, because without that we should not be able to carry through any of our great social schemes.
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  The naval forces are really the ramparts protecting this country. If we do not have these cruisers—and I must say that we are rather debating in the dark, because probably the Government have already decided that they are going to give us adequate cruisers—we shall be allowing the ramparts to crumble. We are building houses and going forward with great social schemes, but if we allow the ramparts to crumble all our work will be wasted, because the enemy will be able to walk in and do what he likes. It is much better to make certain of our ramparts, and have an efficient fleet, than to go on with social schemes if we cannot afford to protect them.
  The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) said just now that she hoped that the Government would shortly see their way to grant marriage allowances to naval officers. I support that plea. After all, the House has voted the money, it has been set aside, and it seems an extraordinary position that it should not have been applied to the purpose for which it was intended without any real explanation of the delay being offered. In carrying through that scheme the Government will only be doing justice to a class of thoroughly deserving men.
  Sir R. HAMILTON: This Debate has shown how very general in every quarter of the House the serious issue now before the country is recognised. It has been said that we are rather in the dark as to what is going to happen with regard to the building programme of the Navy in the future, but what we are in fact discussing is whether the naval programme shall be increased or slowed down at the present moment. As I view the position, this must be governed by two things. In the first place, the state of the nation, and secondly, the general political situation of the world. When we look at the state of the nation, we realise what a very serious condition we are in industrially at the present time. It is not necessary for me to go into details in this connection, because we all see the terrible army of unemployed growing. What relief can be given to that condition of affairs, and how can we obtain relief? There is only one way of doing it, and that is by economy in the spending Departments of the state. Hon. Members opposite are agreed that

  1643
  economy is necessary, although some of the economies they have suggested are not those that commend themsleves to those who sit on this side of the House. For example, I should not begin economising by cutting down expenditure on education, because that is what the nation needs more than anything else at the present time. We do know, however, that the great opportunity offered for economy is in armaments, and we have to consider whether we are in a position, having regard to the political state of the world, to take this opportunity of effecting that economy.
  It was pointed out by a former speaker that it cannot be too heavily underlined that it is only by economy that we can relieve the burden of the dead-weight which is at present depressing industry. It is only by economy on a grand scale that that can be effected. I admit that various economies can be effected by cutting down staffs, in fact I am one of those who refuse to believe that economy could not be effected in the Admiralty staff. But, after all, that is a small matter, and we are concerned with something much more serious. It is difficult to consider one branch of the fighting forces as apart from the other, and although we are to-night only considering the Navy, we cannot exclude from our minds the fact that the expenditure on armaments has gone up this year by over £5,000,000. Is that wise, having regard to the political state of the world? Against whom is that armament directed? Who are our enemies? It is all very well to say you must insure, but why should we be asked to pay a premium out of all consideration to the dangers we see anywhere around us? Are we in danger of attack from anyone? Nobody suggests it. Are we going to attack anyone? People suggest that that is even less likely. Why then should we not take the opportunity that offers itself at the present time when we have come successfully through the greatest war that the world has ever seen, and when, as far as we can see, we are not likely to be engaged in any great war in the near future. After the Napoleonic Wars we went 40 years without another serious war, and surely this is the time to take our courage in our hands, and say we will go slowly with our armaments, and
  1644
  not go on building up unnecessary navies and armies against foes who do not exist. I do not think it can be overstated by any manner of means that if we lose the opportunity that offers itself now it may not recur again because we shall be starting on a race of armaments.
  I should like to call attention to a very interesting article which appeared in the "Times" this morning, written evidently by a very well-instructed correspondent writing from the point of view of a naval correspondent. He pointed out that in the keeping up of an efficient Navy it would be necessary to lay down so many cruisers per annum, so many destroyers, and so many submarines in order that the efficiency of the Navy should be kept up. The comment made was:
  "The deficiency is not so great as the figures would show since other nations have in consequence of post-War conditions not yet resumed their normal amount of construction, but they are on the point of doing so."
  Of course they will do so if we do. We are the leading nation with sea power, and if we increase our armaments other nations will increase theirs as well. Surely an opportunity offers itself to us to set the example to the world, and direct our attention more to another naval conference to reduce the armaments throughout the world rather than starting on a policy of increased construction which will only lead to the old competition of armaments which led naturally to the dreadful results through which the world has just gone. I can only say in conclusion that I think before this Debate conies to an end not only will it be thoroughly well realised in this House by Members on all sides and Members of every party, that though we all desire that the Navy should be adequate for our purposes, we on these benches at least are determined that it shall not be more than adequate, and that we should take this opportunity of saving in regard to expenditure in order to relieve industry and not build up a Navy that might have the duty of protecting only a silent factory from which no smoke issues.
  Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: The last speaker has referred to an article in the "Times" this morning. The only remark I have to make is that I wish hon. Members who have heard the remarks made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland on that article will read it

  1645
  through and take it to heart, and then I shall be satisfied that it will have a different effect from that which the hon. Member hopes his speech will produce. In this Debate so many experts have been speaking, and so many more wish to do so, that I shall occupy very little time, because I am not an expert on naval matters, and cannot even claim to know as much about them as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), or to be such an expert politician as the Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine). I will, however, put what I believe to be the point of view in regard to this matter of the vast majority of the back bench members of the Conservative party, and I think I shall be putting forward the view of the majority of the Conservative working-class constituents of mine who returned me to this House, and who I believe are typical of the great majority of working men and women in this country. We are all out for economy in every possible way, and we realise the necessity for it. When we come to the question of economy in the education grant which has been referred to, there are economies which may be effected without damage to efficiency, and those are the first economies we want to see effected. With regard to the question of building in the Navy, the view I want to put is that the people of this country, whether they are, unfortunately, in receipt of unemployment pay, or whether they are struggling for a hard-earned wage, or whether, in the higher ranks, they are trying to improve and increase industry and trade in this country, the first thing they look for is safety, and we realise that safety in this country means first and foremost and every time the safety of our trade routes and connections all over the world.
  We rely upon the Government, whatever their scheme may be, always keeping economy in view, to see that these trade routes are insured as safe. The hon. Member who spoke from the benches opposite, who spoke of insurance in proportion to the value of our trade, seemed to be mixing up the sum for which you are going to insure—which in this case is our lives—and the premium you might have to pay for it. In this case we have to effect the insurance, and, unless we are insured against the particular risk to which we are open as a great island
  1646
  Power, it is no earthly use thinking of how we are going to spend money on other matters. What I want to emphasise is that we rely upon the Conservative Government, backed by the Conservative party in this House, not merely to see— although we expect them to see to that —that every possible economy is carried out in the administration of the affairs of this country, but that first and foremost we may go to work and work our hardest, knowing that our work will not be destroyed by reason of our trade routes not being properly protected. Hon. Members who have spoken from the Liberal benches to-day have spoken moderately and reasonably, and many things have been said from those benches which are well worthy of consideration; but, unfortunately, in this matter the Liberal party are tainted. Never again will the country trust them where any question of the Navy is concerned. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about 1914?"] It was not through members of the Liberal party that we did not come off far worse than we did in 1914. Let me, however, pay this tribute to one who was then a member of the Liberal party, that this country would have been far worse off in 1914 had it not been for the energy and determination of the right hon. Gentleman who is now Chancellor of the Exchequer in this Government.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: Why do you not now accept his advice?
  Mr. HERBERT: While he is a Member of this Government we accept him, and expect with confidence that he will work with his colleagues, many of whom have long been well known to mo personally and to other Members on these benches. Should there be any doubt as to what line certain Members of the Government may take, there is no doubt as to the line which the Conservative party in this country will take, and that line will be taken by those who in the country have votes but no politics. Side by side with economy, and, if anything, before economy, we must have safety, and, should there be any Member of this Government who is not in sympathy with that idea, the sooner he is out of the Government the better. The Conservative party have a great majority in this House. They have a Government in whom they have confidence, and they look to that Government to ensure such a pro-

  1647
  gramme of naval construction as will leave no doubt as to the safety of this country. So long as they adopt that policy, and not one moment longer, will they have the support of the vast majority of their followers in this House and throughout the country. I have no claim to be anything more than a backbench Member, but I have been fairly well in touch with Members of my own party in this and previous Parliaments for nearly seven years, and I feel I may say with confidence that this party, while it has confidence in its present Government, would have no confidence whatever, and never will have confidence in any man as a leader of their party who could make the speech which was made by the Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare from these benches this evening. I regret that he is not in the Committee now, and, as he is not, I will say no more about his speech to-day, but I want to urge upon the Government that, if they will take the right line, they will be assured of the support of their party in the House and in the country, while, if they do not do so, the great Conservative party will still be able to govern this country with a Government which will be shorn of those who do not adopt that view.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: It is not my purpose to argue whether we have spent too much or too little money upon the Navy. All that was gone into when we were passing the Navy Estimates. But, if I were the manager of the King's Navy. I should have regard to certain cold figures which I think adequately show that our expenditure on the Navy is at least adequate, and, in my opinion, more than adequate. We are spending on the fighting forces to-day £116,000,000, as against £62,000,000 in 1914. That is nearly double. Germany to-day is spending on her fighting forces approximately one-tenth of what she spent in 1914. That is all I want to say about the Navy Votes. My main purpose in rising is to reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn), who is not now in the Committee. He made a very sweeping statement, which I do not think was a considered statement. He dealt with the Clyde, Tyneside, Barrow, and other shipbuilding districts, and said he was astonished that the question of the
  1648
  allocation of work had never been raised from these benches.
  Sir W. SUGDEN: We have done it already.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: Anyone who has followed the Navy Estimates and subsequent discussions upon this matter knows that this question of allocation has been raised in all parts of the House. I have raised the question of allocation twice, and the hon. Member for the Hartlepools (Sir W. Sugden) has raised it, and I believe I am right in saying that he is the only one by whom it has been raised on the other side.
  Sir A. SHIRLEY BENN: I am sure the hon. Member would not wish to do an injustice to the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon. He distinctly said that it had not been raised to-day.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: I did not understand him to say to-day at all.
  Mr. HERBERT: Ho did. When he was interrupted he repeated it.
  Mr. CONNOLLY: That may be right, I do not know; but the evening is young yet, and, if none of us have spoken on the allocation of work, we certainly have been trying to speak. I myself have been sitting here for nearly three hours. The hon. and gallant Member dealt with the allocation of new cruisers, but what is the use of talking about giving Tyneside or the Clyde a cruiser when there is none provided in the Estimates? What I have spoken about in the House and should like to have a reply upon—we have twice tried to get a reply—is the question of the allocation of the ships in the Naval Estimates—four cruisers for reconditioning and 47 small craft, consisting of 12 mine sweepers, three flotilla leaders, 19 destroyers and 13 submarines. There are four cruisers now. There were five when the Estimates were going through. This is the first year in living memory in which no provision has been made for giving new orders to private firms. I have been surprised in these discussions on the Naval Estimates, and twice on Motions for the Adjournment, at Easter and Whitsuntide, that hon. Members on the other side, who are supposed to be keen on the question of private enterprise, have not raised this question. I want to put the case again for the

  1649
  allocation of these 51 ships altogether. The capital ships are all allocated. There were five cruisers when the Estimates went through. I see by the Estimates now that one has been placed. I should like to know why the important shipbuilding districts of Tyneside and Clydeside and Barrow have been entirely left out. I have nothing to say with regard to the expenditure upon the Navy. Our views on these benches are well known. I think the figures prove that our fighting forces are costing too much, having regard to all the circumstances, the protection of trade routes and everything that has been said to-day. It is not the royal dockyard districts that contribute for the total upkeep of the Navy. The whole country contributes to the expenses of the fighting forces.
  9.0 P.M.
  I want to put again the case of the districts where private contracts have in past years been responsible for a large amount of our naval work. Hon. Members below the Gangway have been speaking about the load there is upon industry. One of the greatest loads on industry today is the poor rate of our various districts. The poor rate in the city I represent is 5s. 3d. in the £, an amount almost equal to the total rates pre-War. The way to get the poor rate down is to get the men to work. The naval Estimates, good, bad or indifferent, are through, and I should say a wise way of reducing unemployment, reducing the rates in the various centres, and thereby removing the load from industry and paving the way to a better industrial condition, would be to take the money that has been voted in the Estimates and allocate some of these ships for reconditioning to the North-East coast of England, to Clydeside and to other shipbuilding districts. I put the case here of Campbeltown, in Argyllshire. I am not particularly interested in it, or in the Clydeside, but I put the case of that isolated district where men have been deprived of their unemployment benefit because they are not genuinely looking for work, though they have something like 8s. 3d. to pay to get to the nearest port and look for work I believe that little firm in Campbeltown has now been placed on the Admiralty list. I suggest that they, too, might have one of these small craft to keep them going. The very
  1650
  large volume of work which has not been allocated yet ought to be spoken about. We ought to hear something about it. There are 51 ships, big and little, which have not been allocated, and I think the Members for the industrial centres I have mentioned are entitled to hear something as to what the purpose and intention of the Admiratly is with regard to the allocation of these ships.
  Mr. STORRY DEANS: I have very great sympathy with the hon. Member who has just addressed the Committee, and in one particular I should like to have his assistance in my own argument. He has told us that one of the ways to relieve industry is to get men to work. That has always seemed to me a fairly self-evident proposition, but it seems necessary that the Committee should occasionally be reminded of it. The financial and the purely physical effect of unemployment is, to my mind, as nothing compared with the moral effect of unemployment, because we all know that a man who is out of work for a long time eventually ceases to wish for work. It is not his fault altogether. It is very largely his misfortune. How does that affect this Debate on the Navy? It affects it in this way. At present the country is spending vast sums of money on what is called the dole. To my mind it would be better to put people to work upon something that might be useful, that might be wanted, though you cannot prove that at this present moment it is useful or it is wanted, rather than pay them money for doing nothing, and if we are to have this new construction, which is the wish of the whole Conservative party, with perhaps half a dozen exceptions, you will have this kind of effect. For every cruiser you construct you will save £400,000 a year on the dole and you will employ the very kind of man who is now craving for employment, because a great deal of the unemployment just now is not unemployment in the unskilled classes. There are many of them out of employment I agree, but it is not altogether the unskilled. You can put the mere labourer on to making roads and doing all sorts of jobs to which unskilled labour is applied. They are the men who are being the worst hit, and, unfortunately, they are the men who are the most skilful craftsmen, people such as engineers. A study of their wages is appalling. A study of the employment amongst them is appalling.

  1651
  It is obvious, it does not require argument, but merely has to be stated, that if you enter upon an adequate naval shipbuilding programme you will bring into employment very large numbers of these men. I see the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is looking at his notes. Do not let him or any other hon. Member say that I am advocating the building of unnecessary ships as a cure for unemployment. I am doing nothing of the kind. What I am saying is that it is quite clear, and it does not require any argument to prove it, that if you do start building these ships, you must employ these skilled men. These skilled men are the very men who are the hardest hit by the present trade depression. Therefore, in proceeding with the shipbuilding programme you will be assisting a class of workers who require assistance.
  The giving of a contract for work of this kind, or work of any kind, for the making of steel, or parts of an engine, castings, and the like, will be far better than any number of subsidies. What you want is not subsidies, but work, orders for the employers, just as the workmen, in a hackneyed phrase, want not charity but work. A collaterial advantage in a naval shipbuilding programme at the present time would be that you would save the country large sums of money in regard to the dole. You would materially assist the very people, both masters and men, who require assistance, and you would do it in a way which would not injure their self-respect, as the everlasting dole injures the self-respect of the workmen, and as everlasting subsidies would or ought to injure the self-respect of the employer. That is only one part of the subject.
  The question arises, is it obvious that a naval shipbuilding programme is unnecessary? I do not think the country thought so at the last Election. It was declared not once nor twice, as the Leader of the Opposition said, by the Conservative leaders during the last Parliament that the Conservative party stood committed to a shipbuilding programme. Although I do not say that that may be modified, either in the direction of a decrease or an increase, yet I do say that the Conservative party when it went to the country went with that shipbuilding programme as part of its policy.
  1652
  We should be playing fast and loose with our constituents, and we should be playing fast and loose with our party, if we were suddenly, because apparently there is a very small fraction of the Conservative party, a few of whom unfortunately are in high office, who desire a wrong-headed kind of economy, to go back from the pledged word of our leaders before the Election. I do not want to attack anyone in particular or to give the name of any person, but I would like to say that the mandate of this country was given to the Prime Minister, and not to anybody else. It was his mandate and whatever his mandate was I will toll him what it was not; it was not to cut down expenditure upon the Navy. I do not believe it would be found upon these benches that more than half a dozen Members at the last General Election advocated any cutting down of the Navy. I should be surprised if practically the whole of the Members elected in support of the Government did not declare themselves in favour of maintaining the Navy at a greater strength than the Labour Government maintained it.
  The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton) asked the time-honoured question, "Who is our enemy? Who is the enemy against whom we are arming?" The answer is that we are not arming against any enemy in particular, and it is neither necessary nor politic to declare from whom you apprehend danger. It is the sort of question that might be put to a man who desired to learn boxing. I see an expert boxer, the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull, on the other side. Suppose someone said, "I am going to learn how to box." You might as well say to them, "Whom do you intend to assault?" I do not mean anything derogatory to the hon. and gallant Member, who is skilled in the art. One might as well say: "Who do you intend to injure when you have learned how to box?" A person learns boxing because he wishes to be able to protect himself when occasion arises.
  The British nation is in this position that we of all the people in the world cannot afford to run any risks. A war may arise at any time for causes which at first sight may appear trivial, and if a war does arise, and we have not adequate protection for our trade routes, we are liable to the very dire fate of

  1653
  starvation. We are not like any other country in the world. We have not a month's supply of food in the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not grow it?"] I do not want to go into any vexed question as to why we do not grow it or whose fault it is. The fact is that we do not grow it, and under the present system it is not likely to be grown. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I recommend hon. Members above the Gangway opposite to settle that question with hon. Members below the Gangway. That being the fact, is it not the height of folly to run the slightest risk, when our supplies of food may be nut off? Hon. Members will remember the case of the "Emden." The "Emden" was in the Indian Ocean, and cut off ship after ship. How many of our ships do hon. Members suppose were engaged hunting the "Emden," for months, before she was caught? I have made inquiries, and I am informed on the best authority that we had 62 ships out for the "Emden "for months before she was caught, and she did millions of pounds of damage in that time. It is not merely a question of millions of pounds. It is a question of the supplies of necessaries of life being cut off.
  No one can deny that there is some risk of war breaking out at some time or other. If war does break out, there is again a risk that an attack will be made upon our trade routes. The only way you can attack this country is to attack its trade routes, and the attack would be bound to be made unless we have an adequate supply of cruisers, in particular. We, have no means of protecting those trade routes. It is said that we have cruisers. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). who knows so much more about the technical side of the Navy than I, knows perfectly well the lesson of Coronel—that however gallant your sailors and however skilful, if you are opposed by an enemy whose guns carry 2,000 yards further than yours, and who has a few knots extra speed, then you are entirely at his mercy, and he can circle around you at a distance at which you cannot get near him, and he can sink you. Therefore, unless the cruisers which we have are modern cruisers, they are useless. The Washington Convention which fixed the maxi-
  1654
  mum size of 10,000 tons has had the usual effect. The maximum has become a minimum, and I do not think that we shall see any cruisers of less than 10,000 tons built. So, therefore, it would be the greatest folly if we became engaged in a naval way, without an adequate supply of cruisers of 10,000 tons and guns. I trust that I shall be forgiven for inflicting myself upon the Committee at more than my usual length, but this is a matter which is very vital to the country, and it ought not to be left entirely to gentlemen professionally interested in the Navy to take up this matter, although they speak with a great deal more authority than I. I am speaking I am sure on behalf of the rank and file of the Conservative party when I say that we should ask the Government; to declare an adequate programme of naval shipbuilding, and that, if they do so, they will have the whole strength of the nation at their back.
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: In the few remarks which I intend to make on the subject under discussion, I would first point out that I am not concerned with any idea of reducing the First Lord's salary. Speaking for myself, I have entire confidence that the Board of Admiralty and the First Lord have produced an entirely adequate scheme of shipbuilding, and it is high time that the Government laid that scheme before the House. We ought to have had it long ago. The situation which exists at present, so far as the Navy is concerned, and so far as the navies of other countries are concerned, is the exact counterpart of the industrial situation in every country. The competition is very severe indeed in the industrial world, and it is also unfortunately equally severe in the matter of armaments. The nations which compete against us in industry are now to foe numbered almost by dozens, and at least three of them at present have considerable navies.
  They possess those navies for one object and one object only. That is the adequate safeguarding of their own industrial enterprise and their commitments in different parts of the world. We have no right to deny them such a form of insurance. At the same time, it is our definite duty to see that we shall have the same form of insurance in this country. Nothing could have been

  1655
  better, to my mind, than the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Devon-port (Major Hore-Belisha) with regard to the cost per head of the population for this insurance, and the cost per thousand pounds worth of trade in this country and in the Dominions. I think that they are extremely instructive, and I hope that those figures, if they are correct—if they are not correct they can be corrected—will be read all over the English-speaking world.
  One has heard several comments, particularly from the Liberal benches, with regard to reducing our naval commitments. It seems a very extraordinary thing that we can so soon after the finish of the great War have forgotten the tremendous lesson which we should have learned in regard to one matter. We started the War with over 20,000,000 tons of merchant shipping. During the War we lost no less than 8,000,000 tons of that shipping by enemy action. The same thing will happen again, not necessarily immediately, but we have to bear in mind the war that must take place at some future time. During the Napoleonic Wars there was exactly the same difficulty. We had immense trouble to counteract with what was called the guerre de corsaire on the part of the Frency Navy, when the enemy nearly ruined us by the efforts to suppress our merchant shipping. That brings me to the question of trade routes. I have no hesitation in saying that if we do not make adequate safeguards for our trade routes we are most certainly doomed as a great nation. We cannot possibly continue if we allow our trade routes to fall under the control of any navy against which we may be engaged. Several comments have fallen from the Liberal benches. There was one, in particular, from the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald), in which he said—
  Captain GARRO-JONES: Is the hon. and gallant Member entitled to insinuate that the right hon. Member for Aberavon sits on the Liberal benches?
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: I apologise.
  Mr. AMMON: The apology is due to us.
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: I apologise to the right hon. Member for Aberavon. He made some remarks on the subject
  1656
  of the influence of technical advisers on their political chief. I wish he were in his place that he might do me the honour of giving me some idea of the sort of attitude he thinks technical officers should take other than what they do take. I have considerable experience in these matters and have always found it is extremely difficult to influence the political chief in a Government Department, and properly so, because they are not there to do anything but take advice and sift it. The right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) suggested that the dockyards might be put. on to do useful work. That question has already been mentioned this afternoon. He drew a comparison with the great firm of Krupp. No Government dockyard I have any experience of has competed in any sense of the word and should not be allowed to compete except in the supply of war materials with any dockyard run under private enterprise. If it did, it would bring about a serious outcry on the part of the public.
  Another point, and I think a very interesting one, was made by the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young). He rather suggested that ships become obsolete so quickly that one made a great mistake in building them in any numbers. After all, ships made by other nations become obsolete just as quickly, and two obsolete ships that happen to meet at sea could be opposed to one another. It is an inadequate reason for reducing a building programme. I could not agree that such an idea would be agreed to. The hon. Member for Orkney (Sir R. Hamilton) discussed the question of who we were insuring against. It is quite impossible to say who we are insuring against; we are merely insuring. Nobody knows when he insures his house whether or not it is going to catch fire, but he can generally make sure that it will catch fire if he does not insure it. It has been suggested that the Naval Staff might be reduced to help towards spending a little less money which we all naturally would like to see. So far as the Staff is concerned, the faults that occurred during the War, the tragedies and the losses of great ships can in almost every case be traced to the lack of a sufficient Staff for the Navy. It does not at the present time permit of anything in the nature of reduction; rather should it be increased.

  1657
  Before the War there was so much to be done and so much under the attention of captains and officers and ships' companies, that there was no time for senior officers to do any serious thinking. At the present time we have the Staff at the Admiralty and there is time for report and consideration of the difficulties which arise during any war. I would not for a moment agree that it would be wise to suggest anything in the nature of reduction of the Staff. If we produce this programme which I trust most sincerely will be a definite programme over a long period, I do not hesitate to say that it will introduce a feeling of real security. If after it is produced we can prevail upon other countries to enter another conference, I can think of no finer weapon for us to enter that conference with than that behind us we have a strong and steady progressive programme of insurance to bargain with, as in fact, the Americans did bargain at the Washington Conference.
  I would like to touch on the marriage allowance. I know what I am going to say will not be extremely popular amongst at any rate a certain section. I am not in agreement for one moment with subsidising marriage for a naval officer. A great many years ago as a young officer I was brought up by a senior officer in a ship who more than once remarked to me, especially if I happened to be going ashore to a dance, that I should always remember that feminine influence was the curse of the Service. I do not think his dictum carried any less weight with me in that within a year of his telling me that he asked me to be his best man. Honestly speaking, marriage among the more junior officers makes definitely for inefficiency. In saying that I can assure the Committee that I have the backing of a very large number of officers between the age of 25 and 35 years who will agree with me that the general effect of marriage is that the bachelors do the work of the married men in the Navy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] Well, it is true. It is a very widespread opinion. Nevertheless, if there is any money available, and this money has already been voted, the proper way to use it is to make the position of all officers a little bit better, but not to subsidise a particular branch. If I may quote a letter still in existence and which can be
  1658
  seen, written by a very great Admiral over 120 years ago about another very great Admiral, at a time of great stress in the history of this country, he wrote about his Commander-in-Chief a private letter in which he said—because the Fleet did not go to sea and do its work—that evidently he found it better to lie abed with a young wife than face the rigours of the North Sea. I am quoting from a historical document which is in existence at the present time. If ever there was an Admiral who was a judge of those matters it was he. That is my opinion so far as marriage is concerned. I hope nobody will take me for a bachelor.
  Mr. BROMLEY: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggesting that all those things are confined to the Navy?
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: The efficiency of the Navy depends entirely on the First Lord's salary, which is under discussion at the moment.
  The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is getting a little wide of the subject under debate.
  Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: We have no more right at all to say that we cannot afford money for the Navy than we have a right to do away with insurance against fire or death or any other fatalities of life. We never know when fire or death or even war may come. It always comes when it is least expected, and in no circumstances should we reduce our precautions against the possibilities of war. So long as this country and Parliament and the Government in power at the time remembers the history of the country,; and particularly the naval history, we are quite safe.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman into a discussion on the value of a celibate Navy, or the comparative perils of marriage and the North Sea, but I will try to confine myself within the rules of order as laid down by the Chairman. I have often gone through the experience which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now undergoing, and I am very glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman is now experiencing some of the same anguish which he inflicted upon me in those days when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, and we had to decide upon the point of view of the experts as against the view of common sense. I have never known a

  1659
  case, and I was Chancellor of the Exchequer for a good many years, where the experts did not advise that it was absolutely necessary that you should get a very considerable number of ships—which they never really did get in the end—and that unless you did so, the country was doomed. They always had an immense programme, a profligate programme, a programme which would sink this ship whilst we were building the new ones, but invariably they had to be content in the end to take some more reasonable programme, but one far more desirable in the interests of national expenditure. I sympathise with my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty who has to confront his experts, and I would say this to him—the country which is governed without experts is apt to go wrong, but the country which is governed by experts is inevitably doomed. This is a case where the House of Commons, and the Government especially, have to exercise their common sense. You cannot insure against every possible risk in a country. You can conjure up endless risks which you will be running, but if you begin to provide against them all, in ordinary life or in national life, you will soon go bankrupt. You must take certain risks in life otherwise you will be so burdened by your insurance policies that there will be nothing left for household expenses. That is the real danger in a programme of this character.
  As a matter of fact, you have to choose which risks you are going to insure against, and there are two alternative risks now. Which is the greater risk? I do not use the words ''national bankruptcy," because I do not want to employ extravagant phrases, but you have to insure against a risk from which you will not be far removed. I have been constantly repeating the same warning. I used it in the Cabinet before I left it in 1922, and since I came away from it I have used it in this House, and I have been seeking to warn the country of the perils of the trade prospect. I did it three years ago, when I was told I was an unreasoning pessimist, but everything that has happened since has justified the very sombre prognostications which I made then. I made that forecast on a careful examination of the permanent factors, and I say that these are the risks against which this country has to insure. One
  1660
  need not go over all the obvious factors. There is huge unemployment and, on the whole, growing unemployment, and you have for the first time in the history of this country a great adverse trade balance. That is one thing which is staring us in the face, and if the right hon. Gentleman before he next goes to the Cabinet will take the trouble to read some of the salient portions of the First Report of the Trade and Industry Committee—a very remarkable document by a very able set of men—he will see that it is very serious reading. Although they have come to no ultimate conclusion, and I wish they would do so as soon as possible, because we want guidance upon these matters, the mere facts to which they call attention are very alarming. They point out, as I have pointed out in a more crude and amateur way, that a time will come when competition will grow keener than ever. When the world begins to be in a position to buy more goods, that is the time when the competition for the sale of those goods will become keener from countries like Germany.
  That is the great danger against which we have to prepare and you cannot do that with a national expenditure, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) pointed out, of £980,000,000. It is the heaviest expenditure in the world per head of the population. To embark on any scheme which is not absolutely necessary for the national safety—and I will come to that in a moment—which is not absolutely and imperatively necessary for the national safety under these conditions, is I think, something in. which the Government would not be justified. What is the risk which would justify us in further handicapping ourselves in the struggle? I know about these token votes which cost very little in the first year but are a temptation to the House of Commons and especially to a perplexed Cabinet. I am not talking only about this Cabinet. All Cabinets have to go through the same experience and they generally compromise by saying "Oh the ships will not be laid down until the last few weeks of the financial year and they will not cost much this year," and the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "At any rate my Budget this year is all right and nobody knows what will happen next year." There is no more seductive proposal for a Government than a token vote for something

  1661
  which is to be undertaken towards the close of the financial year, and that is exactly the seduction which the First Lord of the Admiralty is now offering to the Cabinet. I have no information, but I think he is pursuing the same policy as his predecessors and is saying: "There will not be much money required this year—only a few hundreds of thousands or it may be only a few score of thousands and surely we can afford that." He knows that this Vote will be followed next year by millions and in the third year by many more millions, and you are committing the country to this expenditure at a time when the revenue is falling.
  I should like to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his Treasury experts are telling him. The Admiralty experts are not the only experts who have to be consulted. What are the Treasury experts and the Board of Trade experts saying as to the prospects of the revenue in the course of this year? So far, our credit has been good because we have been able to balance our Budget and pay our way, but if we get fresh deficiencies no amount of extra protection to save the gold standard will save it in this country once you get a deficit in your Budget, because that is the thing to which the world is looking, namely, whether we are really paying our way. Therefore I solemnly appeal to the Government, unless they know of some peril which is not obvious to the country, at this stage not to commit us to this huge expenditure. What is the risk against which they are building? I have been listening to a great part of this Debate and I listened to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maid-stone (Commander Bellairs) who has been a consistent advocate of expenditure on the Navy ever since I first had the privilege of listening to him in this House. He has a rare virtue among politicians. He is absolutely consistent at any rate, and throughout all these years he has put forward the same plea. What we need at the present moment is not fast cruisers but slow spenders, and as I listened to my hon. and gallant Friend I tried to find out what was the immediate peril, because it is not a question of whether you should or should not have cruisers five or 10 years hence. What is the immediate necessity for building them this year or next year
  1662
  until you see your way out of the present very grave crisis, industrial, commercial and financial? I should like to know what it is, and I am speaking with a good deal of experience, not merely of the Exchequer, but of war.
  There is no man who realises more than I do how much we owe to the British Navy, as my hon. and gallant Friend so eloquently said. I agree with every word he said, that had it not been for the Navy, the whole story of the last War would have been a different one, and we might now have been discussing indemnities to be paid by us, and not indemnities to be collected by us. It would have been a very different story if it had not been for the Navy. I had the greatest difficulty in persuading our Continental friends that the whole basis of their military operations depended upon the British Navy, so I am the last man in the world to disparage it. I pointed out many times to the very ablest generals there, who always forgot, that they would not get supplies, that they would not get iron ore or food for their people, that they could not feed their armies, that they could not get reinforcements for their armies, without the British Navy. When America came across, she had to get British ships to carry over 1,000,000 of her men in 1918, and British torpedo boats to protect them, with British battleships in the background as a reserve in order to protect them. There is no man in this House who knows what the Navy means more than I do, and if I take this line, I am not taking it because in the least I disparage the inestimable value of the British Navy to civilisation, not merely to the British Empire.
  The whole liberties of the world for four years and a-half, and God knows for how many more generations, depended upon the fact that the British Navy kept the seas. So, therefore, believe me, I am not pleading against expenditure now because I do not realise the importance of the British Navy, the importance of keeping it strong and mighty and powerful enough in order to fight the battles of civilisation at any time in the future, if the challenge comes from any quarter. I am only pleading for this, that through this very grave crisis, which I have foreseen for years— and I hate preaching pessimism, but I realise the desperate importance of it—

  1663
  we should not now handicap ourselves by one extra burden in the struggle we are entering into to maintain our trade supremacy in the world, because the power of the Empire, the power of Britain, does not depend merely on maritime supremacy; it depends on our commercial supremacy as well, because we cannot maintain one without the other. It is one of the pillars of this great temple, and if one is brought down, the whole thing comes down with a crash, and I ask the British Navy, in the interests of that Navy, not to forget that too, as well.
  Why are we building? What is the peril? My hon. and gallant Friend said Japan has many more fast cruisers which she is on the point of building, and of which she has only laid down one. Well, she does not build very fast. She has got her own troubles. I do not like to refer to these things, but we really must. The cruisers are not for us. We are not the people who are terrifying her. She is not building against us. She is genuinely frightened of her powerful neighbour across the waters, and, as always happens, her powerful neighbour across the waters is just as frightened of her, and because they are frightened of each other, they are just building against each other, and some day there may be trouble. But we are not in that. She is not building against us. It is only just a few years ago that she was one of our best Allies. She kept her bargain very faithfully with us; she held those seas for us; she protected our commerce there when we wanted our ships here at home. She was very useful to us at that time, and she kept faith with us. I believe she is very anxious to be friendly with the British Empire at the present moment.
  There is certainly none of that feeling which may ripen into a conflict between us. My hon. and gallant Friend referred to the period before the War here. Well, it took a long time for hatred to explode. The bitter feeling between Germany and this country was a feeling of at least 20 years' growth—at least. As a matter of fact, it was longer, but during 20 years it was passionate; there was a very angry feeling between the two countries. I remember it during the Boer War, but it was long before that. It took 20 years to mature. Where is the feeling now which is going to ripen into
  1664
  war, either with Japan or anyone else? There are only two countries to be quoted; one is Japan, and the other is the United States of America, and I say that this House of Commons ought to refuse to contemplate a quarrel with the United States of America. It is a thing the very discussion of which makes mischief.
  Commander BELLAIRS: The right hon. Gentleman is entering the region of forecasts. The whole idea of the one-Power standard is to give the British people a measuring rod and to get us away from the forecasts of statesmen, which have proved so erroneous in the past.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If my hon. and gallant Friend refers to the people who make erroneous forecasts, I can give him 50 made by naval experts for every one made by politicians—even about their own job. They were full of mistakes, every one of them, and I never met two of them who agreed, so at any rate the majority must have been wrong. Let me resume my argument. You would not get relief, because my hon. and gallant Friend would get up next year and say: "You are not maintaining the one-Power standard. Look at Japan. She has some sort of special contrivance which we have not got. We must have another ship which is equal to the last one she has built." If the naval experts in this House would guarantee to be silent for five cruisers, or whatever they are, I believe it would be almost cheap to buy them off at that price. But they would not be silent; they would go on. They have a special Committee. Their very existence as a Committee depends upon going on. They meet together, and they encourage each other, as brethren always do in a little society of that kind. One of them says: "Now, have you heard this?" And the other says, "No, but I have a still more terrible story. What they are doing in Yokohama is absolutely nothing to what they are doing down in America: and have you heard of the French? "And then somebody says: "I have just had a letter from Greece. They are building a torpedo boat which has the most destructive qualities "; and there they go on, and they enjoy themselves immensely in the thought that everybody is doing better things than ourselves. But they are not.

  1665
  I heard all this said before the War, but when the British Empire came, amateurs as they were, in a very short time, well, they knew in the end that the British on the high seas won, not by materiel, but by superior seamanship, and what hon. Members opposite always forget is that in every conflict we have ever had on the high seas we have not won because we had more ships or better material, but because we had better sailors than the people we fought. We beat the Armada. Nelson triumphed at sea. Even in the last War—I could tell stories of that, except that I do not want to criticise friendly navies. I could tell many stories as to what a difference seamanship made in the Mediterranean when we abandoned it to material which was probably superior to ours, because we could not police every part of the world. I know many stories of that kind. I am not going to defend the attitude which I took up before the War. If a man says he is of the same opinion to-day as he was 20 years ago, his opinion is not worth anything. If ho does not learn from facts he is incapable of learning anything. Therefore, I am not here to say that I was absolutely right throughout the whole of those years. That is not my point. My point is that there is a great difference between having a menace which is within 36 hours' steaming of your shores and a menace that is—where is it? I would like to know. Mars? I do not know where it is. If it is Yokohama that is a very long way off. Japan is a big Empire and quite capable of looking after itself. If you make this Empire bankrupt at home you build nothing.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: It would soon be bankrupt without the Fleet.
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman's manners were not very good when he represented an English constituency, but since he has gone to Wales they are worse. The climate has got into his head. If it is the defence of the Empire that we are to consider, I think the Empire as a whole should come in. That is a thing I have been urging for long. There are parts of the Empire to whom this may be very urgent and important. They ought frankly to come in and take their full and fair share. I do not want to criticise anyone, but if anyone looks at the Empire fairly and
  1666
  frankly, if anyone remembers the taxation. here and in other parts of the Empire, if anyone considers the importance of the Fleet to the Empire, he will see that the Navy is as vital to their commerce as to ours. In fact it is more vital. It is about time that the whole of the Empire came in quite frankly. If they want a cruiser fleet to protect their trade they should say, "Here we are; we will take a fair share with you." Too much has been left to this gallant little country which has fought the battles of civilisation for three or four centuries without any grousing or complaining. It is about time that the whole of the Empire came in and said, "Your burdens are ours." The heaviest burden is borne now by this very small struggling community, which has an unemployment register of 1,300,000, and there is no other part of the Empire that bears anything like the share that we bear. Frankly it is time that we had a talk upon that subject.
  10.0 P.M.
  What I want to say above all is this: There are many things we ought to consider before we commit our selves to this programme. My hon. and gallant Friend criticised the attitude of the Exchequer before the War. The attitude of the Exchequer was that we stood more in need of small craft than we did of big craft. I am not at all sure that that attitude was not justified very largely during the War. We were very short of small craft and had to lock up our big ships in cold storage. I am not sure that we gained much by building in advance of the Germans. Someone has mentioned the Battle of Jutland. The whole of that story has not yet been told. It has been spoken of as if it were merely a conflict between two distinguished Admirals. That is not the real lesson. The real lesson has far more to do with the quality of the ships and the torpedo boats, the devices we had, the question of the superiority of one class of ship to another, and also the quality of the shells. All that story will be told one day. One of the things that did develop as the result of all our building was the superiority of the battle-cruiser in many respects. That is where, if anything, we were deficient. Two or three were sunk, sunk through defects.
  I would like to be quite sure that the German Shin was not a better ship

  1667
  in many respects. If you had had British sailors on those cruisers and German sailors on ours, the Battle of Jutland would have been a different story. Anybody who knows, knows that. Why? The Germans were always building after having our experience. We started with our dreadnoughts. The dreadnought, although it was built only a few years before, simply lagged behind in the battle and never reached it. It was already obsolete. Then the Germans built a "dreadnought" and other countries did the same thing. We should put this question frankly to the Foreign Office: Is there any danger from any quarter for 10 years? You must consider these things when your cash is limited. Is there any peril for 10 years against which we have to build urgently? If there is, I think that in the end the quality and the power of our ships would gain by even the delay that would enable us to see what they are building. I am speaking now as a profound believer in the British Navy, a profound believer that it is essential to the civilisation of the world that the Navy's might should be maintained. I plead, above all, that we should not at this stage, from the point of view of the efficiency of the Navy and the difficulties with which we are faced at home, rush prematurely into this programme.
  Vice-Admiral Sir REGINALD HALL: The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has given us a speech which, from the debating point of view, I could spend a long time thinking about. I do not propose, however, to waste the time of the Committee, but I want to come to the question of the building programme. As far as I am aware, there are two separate standards at which we have been building. One was the standard laid down by the late First Lord of the Admiralty, now Secretary of State for the the Colonies, in a speech made in January last year. The second standard was laid down by the Leader of the Opposition— five cruisers last year, and I believe on the Navy Estimates this year he said they proposed to lay down a further five this year. So that there are two separate standards by two separate Governments. Therefore it is extremely difficult for anyone to discuss the subject, unless you know what standard you are going to
  1668
  take. There are two standards, and one reason for accepting both or either of those standards. As far as I can see, only two effective reasons for not carrying out either have been given: one is change of policy, and the other, as pointed out by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), is financial stringency. If the reason given is change of policy, then one is entitled to ask in what way has policy changed. Is the policy now, instead of building cruisers, to trust more to air effect; and is the policy, therefore, of the Admiralty to be confined to the Air Ministry in protecting the overseas trade of this country? It is a reasonable proposition to certain minds, but it will be a duty of the Government to convince the country that there is overseas trade, especially that of Australia, that will have adequate protection from the air. That is one of the duties that will fall to the Government.
  But the other consideration is most important. When you come to the question of financial stringency, then you are up against quite a different proposition. I believe that by the Constitution of this country the Board of Admiralty are responsible to the Crown for the safety of our people on the high seas. Through the mouth of the First Lord, it has always been able to assure this House that the provision made for the Navy is sufficient to carry out their responsible duties. There is a difference of opinion on the subject of the building programme. It may be neither that laid down by the Colonial Secretary nor chat of the late Prime Minister, and the building programme may be postponed owing to financial stringency. The point I would put is this, that you cannot expect the Board of Admiralty, having considered the whole question, in view of their responsibility, to have the whole of their plans set aside, not because policy is wrong but owing to financial stringency, and still have that responsibility.
  Mr. HARNEY: It is the policy that is wrong.
  Sir R. HALL: That may be, but I referred to the responsibility of the Board of Admiralty. If the policy of the Government be one of postponement, and they come forward and say so, there must be coupled with it a statement that they are prepared, as a Government, to take the risk involved, and that risk,

  1669
  accepted by the Government, must be endorsed by this House. I feel strongly on this point, and if a statement is made on these lines, then we can feel quite certainly that though the Admiralty have not done all they bargained for, they will carry out the duty of the Government because they have been relieved of the responsibility.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am, sure, apart from any party reason, that the Committee will welcome the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Eastbourne (Sir R. Hall) here again, if we are not silent in the Navy, at any rate we are brief enough, and accordingly I will be brief. The argument is continually used, especially by the legal fraternity in this House, that it took 60 vessels to run the "Emden" down, and that therefore we have to build 60 cruisers for each potential and possible enemy vessel in the world. Why otherwise is the argument used? During the height of the submarine campaign, for every one of the submarines against our merchant ships we bad 500 gun-boats, destroyers, and vessels of all kinds, therefore, if this argument is correct, we need 500 vessels, great and small, for every potential submarine capable of being used against our Navy. It is obvious that this is an argument that is absurd if carried to its logical conclusion. The real danger is not from enemy cruisers at all. If the late War proved anything, it was that the real danger on the great ocean routes would be from cruising submarines. At the time when Germany started to use submarines, every German overseas base had been reduced. If they had had a few bases, it would have been a very different story, and that is the real danger we have to moot. Ten thousand ton cruisers will cost £3,000,000 each. I hope that figure will not be challenged, because vessels travelling at 35 knots, with extremely expensive engines, will cost in the end not less than £3,000,000. I would like to know what the figures will be from the First Lord of the Admiralty. The vessels cannot cost less than that, and appropriations in the American Senate provide for a greater sum in dollars—hut these cruisers will be no defence against submarines.
  I want to make it quite clear that in the present state of the world, I am not in
  1670
  favour of scrapping the British Navy, or anything like it. We have got to have an adequate police force, and to be able to show the flag. Might I plead for a class in whom I am specially interested—the Hull fishermen, who have in recent times been extremely harshly treated by the Icelandic authorities? They tell me they never see a British cruiser there. It might help them if they did see some. They are deserving of some protection from the Navy, and with what we are spending each year, the least these men can expect is the protection of a cruiser. I consider that if for no other reason this Debate has been justified by reason of the speeches from the Conservative benches. I refer to the matter exposed by the Noble Lord the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Lord Erskine)—whom I do not see in his place at the moment—when he referred to the Navy Estimates being each year at a total of £70,000,000. If the programme announced by the present Colonial Secretary just before the former Conservative Government went out of office is still the policy of the Government—and I do not know that anything has happened except that the Japanese programme has been somewhat retarded—if the Government still intend to lay down eight cruisers at once, and five every year afterwards, in a full year, I consider we will spend an extra £15,000,000 per year on the Navy.
  It is for the First Lord to see whether he can make economies in other directions —either by reducing the Government dockyards, by reducing the Admiralty yacht the "Enchantress," or in other ways, or by cutting down the numbers of clerks, civilians, and typists at the Admiralty. If he can show a saving, then he will not have to increase the Navy Estimates. Otherwise they will be increased, and what has been taken off the Super-tax will have to be put on again next year. The right hon. Gentleman cannot get away from the facts of the situation. I think that the most valuable speech from the point of view of information was that of the Noble Lord, and the First Lord of the Admiralty will have a difficulty to explain it away. For the Noble Lord held out this vista of £70,000,000 for Naval Estimates in future years. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not present to hear the speech.
  I also wish to support the speakers on the Labour Benches in making their pro-

  1671
  test against the Navy being used for industrial disputes. I remember on one occasion, owing to the impetuosity of a naval officer at Liverpool, the Navy was brought in. I know, because I happened to be the commander of a ship at the time, and the Admiralty sent out a circular letter to every commanding officer, stating that it was not their intention that the Navy should interfere in any way in industrial disputes, except where they might be called upon by the civil power to help to restore, and to keep order. The naval ratings were not to be used in industrial disputes; such a course was to be avoided at any cost. That is a perfectly sound policy.
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): Is it the suggestion that we are saying that they should be?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: To identify the Navy in any way in industrial disputes is going to do the Navy a good deal of harm and I am glad to hear that there is no intention to do so. The Navy was used at the time of the Coalition Government—
  Sir R. HALL: By your own leader.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: That does not make it more reputable. I opposed it at the time. A very grave injury will be done to the Navy if it is used in this way. I am very sorry that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for East Sussex (Rear-Admiral Beamish) rather let down the naval officer in the matter of the marriage allowance. If it is right for military officers and officers of the Air Force to have the marriage allowance, what reason is there that the naval officer should be deprived of it? I am extremely sorry that the hon. and gallant Member who speaks for such a large part of the Service has allowed himself on this occasion to misrepresent the views of the great majority of naval officers. I will endeavour now to make a few constructive suggestions to the Government, and I am very glad the Prime Minister has come into the House.
  Mr. D. HERBERT: He started as soon as he heard you were up.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It is possible I may let fall a small pearl in the midst of a great deal of verbiage. I am extremely sorry the Foreign Secretary is not here—he has not put in an
  1672
  appearance during this Debate—because it is in the region of our foreign policy that we can look for relief. The present position is simply impossible. The Government do not know their own policy. They have not got the money to meet the demands of the Admiralty, and have resorted to the old subterfuge of yet another Cabinet Committee of non-expert amateurs as a device to gain time until the House wants to get away for the holidays. It is only another example of the general muddle and incompetence. I think I can suggest a way out. It is in the field of diplomacy that we can look for substantial naval savings. The Washington Conference was abortive. It limited the number of battleships to be built or maintained by the different navies of the world. If it is right to limit the number of battleships, it is equally sound to limit the number of cruisers. ["HON. MEMBERS: No!"] The size of cruisers was limited to 10,000 tons, the calibre of the guns was limited to S-inches, but no limits were set to the number. There were far too many admirals at Washington. One might just as well call a conference of jockeys to abolish horse-racing as to call together the admirals of the different Powers to reduce naval armaments. They were bound by the force of public opinion and the demands of the treasuries and the ministers of finance in the different countries, and had to give way on the battleship Question, but they got back on the cruiser question, and now, unless something is done, we are in for a race in cruiser construction. If cruiser construction is to go on in Japan, America, France and Italy, no Government in this country can ignore it, and we will have to build ships in the same way. Whatever hon. Members may say when they are in opposition, if this cruiser construction is to go on in other countries, our Government would have to lay down cruisers, just as they did last year.
  It is absolutely essential that there should be a second Washington Conference to deal with naval armaments, and that it should be particularly directed to two reforms. One is a limitation of the number of cruisers, in the same way that we limited the number of battleships. An hon. Member said we have great trade routes to protect, such as other countries have not. That will be recognised by

  1673
  the other Powers, and they will agree that we need a greater number of cruisers than other nations. Our diplomatists can make that point. The second thing for which we should work is a declaration that submarines shall be illegal in the future. An attempt was made to do that at the Versailles Conference, but it was vetoed by the French. Another attempt was made at Washington, where we had the Japanese and the Americans with us, but once again the proposal was vetoed by the French. If it is right that Germany should not be allowed to own or build submarines, what reason is there why all the nations should not agree that this type of vessel should be illegal? The submarine is extremely effective against merchant vessels but it cannot be used according to the laws of war, therefore there is a strong case for having the submarine declared illegal. If we are going to enter into pacts with the French Government I think the least we can ask the French in return is that they should join with us in arranging a conference and help us to have the submarine declared illegal in all navies. I am sure that would be a great step towards peace. In this way a check might be put to a good deal of construction which is now going on. and which will be a menace to this nation which we shall have to meet at enormous cost.
  The Government of the country seems to be carried on in water-tight compartments, but I think the real policy of the Government should be in the direction which I have indicated, and we ought to use our diplomacy to bring about the greater safety of this country. We have heard a great deal about vessels that are over 15 years old counting war service as twice peace service. I see from the Admiralty return that we are spending £166,000 in refitting a single one of these vessels. We are spending £63,000 on refitting the "Chatham" which was completed in 1912, £72,000 on the "Dublin," £53,000 on the "Yarmouth," and £92,000 on the "Dartmouth." These vessels have all been put down as obsolete and yet the Admiralty are spending these huge sums in refitting them.
  There are nine of the "Cambrian" class, and we are spending large sums of money on each of them in this way. I think the only explanation is that they will be available for certain purposes, and
  1674
  that is the reason why the money is being spent upon them. So they cannot be treated as obsolete. In any case, I think the situation exposed by this Debate is contemptible, because it shows a lack of settled policy on the part of the Government, and this is having a bad effect on our foreign relations. It is necessary for the Government to make up its mind quickly as to what their naval policy is going to be, and in any case I think we ought to use all the influence we can by diplomacy to secure the calling of such a conference as I have suggested.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The vote which is going to be taken in a short time is whether my salary should be reduced by £100, and on that a considerable amount has been hung. I do not quite understand what the object of the Liberal party was in asking for this day for a discussion on the Navy Estimates. They were told, and knew perfectly well, that the Prime Minister had already announced that he hoped to give the Government's decision on the new construction programme next week, but for some reason best known to themselves they decided not to wait until we could have an effective Debate, in which the Government could answer any points that they might bring forward, but that they had better raise it now, in order that they might be able to say that the Government had not yet made up their mind. That, I suppose, is the whole point of putting this Vote down to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where are they?"] Most of those who spoke have not thought it worth while to come to listen to any reply we may have to make.
  Some of them were kind enough to say that they were doing it in order to accelerate the decision and in order to relieve any embarrassment that I might feel, and, if that were the effect of their action, I should have been almost willing to lose my £100 and vote for their Amendment. But, when it came to the point, the right hon. and learned Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) rather sheered off, and started the theory that the really proper way to conduct the business on Estimates in this House would be, not when the Estimate is brought in, but before it is brought in. I do not know whether he would carry that out with regard to every Estimate that the Government have to bring

  1675
  in, but his proposition was that one really valuable thing was that the Government should hear all that the House had to say before they ever brought in an Estimate. We should want a great deal more Parliamentary time if that practice were generally adopted.
  Having established that theory, the right hon. and learned Gentleman prepared to give me some very kind, fatherly advice, the sort of thing that a parent might say to his son before he leaves for school. I must say I felt rather like Laertes listening to Polonius; but I thought that at least he would do what most generous parents do on these occasions, and that at the end of his lecture I should, at any rate, receive the tip of one cruiser, or something in the way of assistance to carry out the dignified role which Laertes was expected to fulfil at the Court to which he was commissioned. That, however, was not realised. I was to be careful, to beware of entrance into a quarrel, but, if in, to see to it that the foe should beware of me. I was to make sure that we had the maximum of security at the minimum of expense. But that is exactly what I am trying to do, and advice like that has, really, occurred to other and less distinguished people than the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
  He proceeded to criticise the extravagance of the present Navy administration, but I do not think he could have been here when I answered a question about the comparative cost of 1914 and the present time. I was asked what was the cost of the Navy this year, apart from the Fleet air arm and the non-effective services, and what was the cost in 1914, and what was the comparative value of money in the two periods? The answer was that the present cost is in round numbers £51,000,000, and that was equal pre-War to about £32,000,000, and the actual Estimate in 1914-15 was about £47,500,000. That does not look—some £15,500,000 below the figure of 1914–15—as if we are guilty of such great extravagance in view of the great additional work that goes on now at the Admiralty.
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: You are not building.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That is, of course, my difficulty in speaking in this
  1676
  Debate, because everyone has spoken knows perfectly well that I am unable to enter into the question of new construction, and although the embarrassment of that position has been recognised by a number of speakers, one or two, especially on our side of the House, have not apparently understood that I was debarred from making any defence of new construction by the position we are in of waiting for the decision of the Government, which is to be given next week. Having been placed in that position do not let anyone think that because I am not going to prejudice the case of the Government I have not got arguments which I could give and hope to have an opportunity of giving when the occasion arises. What the right hon. Gentleman said after that was endorsed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), who said the great maxim was to build late.
  Mr. HILTON YOUNG: The right hon. Gentleman must not take it that those are any words of mine.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The right hon. Gentleman certainly did use those words. He said the great thing was to take advantage of all the lessons we had learnt from other people.
  Mr. YOUNG: I quite accept those words.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That is exactly the point. Other countries have learnt lessons from the Battle of Jutland and have built an enormous number of ships in consequence. Over 300 post-War designed ships have been built by other countries to 11 by us. What lessons did the two right hon. Gentlemen expect to learn in the future which have not been learnt from the Battle of Jutland? Are we to wait for another Battle of Jutland before we begin? There is something to be said for building late and something for building quickly, but there is nothing to be said for building too late. The right hon. Gentleman said that what we called replacing was really an enormous addition to our strength. We were replacing four obsolete Ford care by a new Rolls-Royce. That was aptly answered by the hon. Member for Aberdeen East (Mr. Boothby), who said that we were replacing not one Ford Car by one Rolls-Royce, but 20 Fords by one Rolls-Royce.

  1677
  Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that a proper replacement programme is for one old cruiser, absolutely worn out, to be replaced by another that is really no better? That is an argument that cannot be taken seriously. Hon. Members must bear in mind that other countries have thought it advisable to build ships of post-War design. If we neglect our duty in building, in the light of the experience that has been gained by the War, we shall be courting another disaster like Coronel, the lesson of which was that speed and strength of armaments are the dominating feature in all engagements of that kind. Therefore, to say that we ought not to take advantage of all new inventions and to build the best, if we have to build, is an argument which cannot be sustained for one single moment.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay) asked me whether the Government had taken into consideration a lot of obvious things, like the programmes of other countries, the views of the Committee of Imperial Defence on the one-Power standard, and several other matters. Of course, these matters have been taken into consideration. Nobody could approach this question without taking these matters into consideration, and when the Vote for new construction is taken, it will be very easy to answer the questions which the hon. and gallant Member raised. He raised a further point, which was also raised by other hon. Members, which is certainly deserving of considerable attention and consideration, and that is, the number of the staff at the Admiralty. The suggestion was that a great deal of economy could be effected if the staff wore reduced and the money were spent on shipbuilding. I admit that, like all other Departments, economies can be made. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not make them?"] Why not make them? In the first place, the economies we could make would not mean much in the way of shipbuilding. Do not let hon. Members go away with the idea, that there are a great many millions in this. Do not let them go away with the idea that the Admiralty is the only offender in this respect. If offence there be, let them make their cuts in all the other Government Departments. I should like to say this on behalf of the Admiralty, and it is only fair that
  1678
  I should say it, that they have had an inquiry into their affairs by the Weir Committee, a very powerful and very searching investigation, and the Committee came to the conclusion that it was extremely difficult in present circumstances to reduce, the staff.
  Sir FREDRIC WISE: May I ask when that was?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I think it was in 1921, but I am not quite sure. There is this consideration to bear in mind, that comparing the present with pre-War times, there is at the Admiralty a naval staff, a general staff as at the War Office, not so large as at the War Office but it is a considerable staff. It is quite new and nobody disputes the value of it. That has to be taken into consideration. There are many other new services imposed from without on the Admiralty which have nothing to do with the Navy but which they have to carry out. There is the Pensions Increase Act, which entails a considerable amount of clerical work: there are the- War Compensation Act, the Merchant Shipping Act, the Representation of the People Act—we have got to keep a register of all the sailors at sea— the Unemployment Insurance Act, the marriage allowance for the petty officers and men, and we have to pay naval allotments now weekly instead of monthly and we have to revise the naval officers' rate of pay perpetually, in accordance with the rise or fall in the cost of living. Also certain principles of accountancy have been adopted which add to the number of the staff.
  Lord Weir's Report mentions as an example that in 1914, when it was necessary to make a particular calculation, there were 27 figures which have now become 70 figures, and there are now 12 calculations instead of four. It is impossible for us to alter that. That has nothing to do with naval work. It is work forced upon us because of Acts which this House has chosen to pass. Lord Weir said that he had no particular recommendations to make for reducing this work. He is forced to the conclusion that a substantial part of the increase in staff is due to the development of services and changes in methods of naval war. He says that, measured in terms of capital ships and of personnel, the British Navy to-day is smaller and weaker than the Navy in 1914, but,

  1679
  measured in other forms of naval activities, the reverse would appear to be the case. I only mention that in order to show that anyone who supposes that there is a great deal of money to be saved by economies in matters of that kind is likely to be disappointed. The hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) asked what happened to some Committee which he set up to investigate the cost of these Departments. He did set up a Committee, and it is quite true that we have carried it on, but the legacy of the work left to us by his Committee does not amount to very much in the way of saving. I am prepared to go fully into that question, and I only ask that this shall not be the only Department singled out in this way.
  The hon. Gentleman opposite asked questions about Singapore. He seemed to think that there had been some difference since we last debated the Navy Estimates. There is no difference in the situation at all. The position is that we are proceeding with the installation of a floating dock, and considering a larger programme which, at any rate, could not be begun before next year. When we have made up our minds we shall be prepared to say what we are going to do. There was one matter raised by the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) about the Order with regard to the position of naval officers and men when there is a strike. Some sort of suggestion was made that the Navy was to be used for strike-breaking purposes. I may be able to dismiss that view entirely from his mind. He suggested that there might be some small strike in which naval officers or men might be used on behalf of one party to the strike. Of course, that is a totally false impression of what the Order means. To begin with, the Order refers to a general disturbance, a general strike.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: Local strikes.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I think not. Well, he may be right, but the main intention of it is to regulate the action of officers and men of the Navy in a general strike, the object being to exert what powers the Government have in preventing the cutting off of the supplies of food and other necessaries for the general public. To say that the Navy is to take part in the strike on one side or the other is totally wrong.
  1680
  If the strike has the effect of victimising the public, it is the duty of the Government to do what they can.
  Mr. MONTAGUE: May I ask the First Lord, how is it that the Order states the method by which the Accountant-General of the Admiralty shall be reimbursed by private firms?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The firms might be millers with stocks of flour, from which it might be necessary to get food for the people. They might be a private firm. That makes no difference to the duty of the Navy, which is not to take part on one side or the other, but on behalf of the general public.
  Mr. BATEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman let us see the Order?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am quite ready to send a copy of the Order. It has already been quoted. I am not ashamed of it. It was issued in 1919. I think it was revised in 1923 and is now in the revised form. The hon. Gentlemen opposite, when in power, would have been perfectly justified in revoking it if they had thought it was unfair. They knew it was not. They knew it was only made in the interests of the general public, and it is those interests which it is the duty of the Government, whether conducted by hon. Gentlemen opposite or by us, to protect. The hon. Member for Devonport (Major Hore-Belisha) raised that very interesting point, that we ought to look on shipbuilding and maintaining an adequate Navy as a policy of insurance of so much per cent. on the imports and exports of this country. I think it is a very reasonable view to take of the question and far more reasonable than some views which have been expressed. I wish some formula of that kind could be arrived at. He worked it cut in a most interesting way from the battle of Trafalgar onwards and I hope he will impress that view upon his friends and any other people upon whom he has influence. He asked us to be solicitous for the interest of the dockyard hands. I shall exercise the greatest solicitude for their welfare that is possible in these very difficult times. He made various suggestions and I can assure him I shall be prepared to entertain any suggestions which can mitigate hardships to those who may be thrown out of work.

  1681
  I do not think that there are any other salient points to which I need refer except a few words in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who was very amusing, but was not, I think, helpful. He said it was a great mistake to be governed by experts, but it is a still greater mistake, I suggest, to be governed by amateurs. A member of the Labour party asked me a question the other day as to whether I was not aware that the Karl of Oxford and Asquith had expressed the view that no further shipbuilding was necessary and, the Noble. Lord having expressed that view, whether the opinion of anybody else need be considered? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs rather endorsed that theory. My view is that the business of the First Lord of the Admiralty is to listen to the views of the experts and to any criticisms that the amateurs may have to make and to form his own judgment on the results and that on the whole, he would be well advised if he were to take the opinion—using his own discretion—of those who have spent their lives in considering a particular subject rather than those who come to it fresh without knowing a great many of the difficulties which surround the subject—
  Mr. CONNOLLY: In the last minute—
  HON. MEMBERS: Order!
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am the only speaker from the Government Front Bench, and I have only had a very short time—
  Mr. CONNOLLY: You have not replied to what we said here. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] It has been raised three times in this House, and there has never been a reply.
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: All I can say is, that my effort will be to follow the admirable advice of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who opened this Debate, and to do what I can to get the maximum of security at the minimum of expense.
  Mr. KELLY: I should like to—
  It being Eleven of the Clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session relating to insurance against unemployment, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament—
  (1) as from and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, of a contribution, towards unemployment benefit and any other payment to be made out of the unemployment fund, not exceeding the amount determined by the Treasury to be approximately equivalent to the sum which would be produced by weekly contributions paid in respect of the two periods mentioned in the following Table at the rates therein specified in relation to those periods, respectively: —
  TABLE.
  During the extended period (that is to say, the aggregate of the deficiency period and a further period thereafter ending on such date as the Minister of Labour may by order prescribe, not being a date later than the first day of the insurance year commencing next after the end of the deficiency period) or, if the extended period does not expire on or before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, during the period ending on that date:—

  Description of persons in respect of whom contribution is payable.

  Rate.

  Insured poisons being men

  8d.

  Insured persons being women

  6d.

  Insured persons being boys

  4⅝d.

  Insured persons being girls

  4⅜d.

  Exempt persons being men

  2½d.

  Exempt persons being women

  2¼d.

  Exempt persons being boys

  l¼d.

  Exempt persons being girls

  1⅛d.

  During such time as the extended period continues after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight: —

  Insured persons being men

  7d.

  Insured persons being women

  5½d.

  Insured persons being boys

  4⅛d.

  Insured persons being girls

  3⅞d.

  Exempt persons being men

  2d.

  Exempt persons being women

  1¾d.

  Exempt persons being boys

  1d.

  Exempt persons being girls

  ⅞d.

  (2) Of the increased contribution towards unemployment benefit and any other payment to be made out of the unemployment fund which will become payable if the Minister of Labour, with the concurrence of the Treasury at the end of the first quarter of the year nineteen hundred and twenty six, or at the end of any subsequent quarter of any year, declares that the average of the amounts of the advances made by the Treasury to the unemployment fund outstanding on the last day of each week in the quarter, together with the interest accrued up to the said last day in respect of advances exceeds the amount of the advances outstanding on the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, together with interest accrued up to the said thirty-first day in respect of advances, and the rates of the contribution, payable out of moneys provided by Parliament, are consequently deemed to have been increased in respect of the quarter in the case of employed persons being men by one penny, and in any other case by one halfpenny."
  Resolution read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Mr. STEPHEN: I should like the Minister of Labour to tell us the number of those who are on the Unemployed Register, and the number of those who, he contemplates, will be retained upon the register as a result of the passing of this Measure. I should also like him to give us an estimate of the number of people who he thinks will be put off the register and will not be in receipt of benefit as a result of the passing of the Measure. In this connection I would put a question in regard to the class of young people, or people who are in receipt of benefit and are at home and who are not to get benefit in future because of the family income. How will the Ministry find out what the family income is? Will the applicant for benefit have to fill up a form?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Those points do not arise on this Resolution. They arise properly on the Bill.
  Mr. STEPHEN: I am putting these questions to the Minister because the amount of these contributions will depend on the figures of the Resolution. The whole of this contributory scheme is interlocked.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I protest against the taking of this very important Resolution after eleven o'clock at night. I know no reason why time should not have been found for it at a reasonable hour. In view of the Debate to-day, finance is a dominant aspect of policy, and it is necessary to watch the pounds very carefully in view of what the Government are to do in spending money on warships. I do not think that this business was announced at the end of Question Time last Thursday. All that I can recollect the Prime Minister saying was that this day would be a Supply day. I inquired through the usual channels, and was informed that no warning had been given. I respectfully suggest to the Government that this is hardly the way to get business through, especially towards the end of the Session. I throw that out as a hint. I also protest, mildly, against the absence of any representative of the Treasury. I do not expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be here, but I think the Financial Secretary ought to be present. Let me quote from the Resolution. Paragraph (2) states:
  "Of the increased contribution towards unemployment benefit and any other payment to be made out of the unemployment fund which will become payable if the Minister of Labour, with the concurrence of the Treasury at the end of the first quarter of the year nineteen hundred and twenty-six, or at the end of any subsequent quarter of any year, declares that the average of the amounts of the advances made by the Treasury to the unemployment fund outstanding on the last day … ."
  The Treasury is a very important factor in the finance of this scheme. Yet there is no representative of the Treasury present on the Treasury Bench. That is hardly treating the House with proper respect. In the absence of the Treasury, I will address myself to the Minister of Labour. In the table an extraordinary fraction of one penny is given for the rate of payment for insured persons, and a further table for the same insured persons also contains quite unworkable fractions. Might I ask how it is proposed to pay three-eighths of a penny? Are special stamps to be printed? How is this matter going to be dealt with? Is it to be done at the end of the quarter, or how are these fractions going to be reckoned up? If we are to introduce a new stampage the drapers will have a new scheme for selling things just under a shilling. I

  1685
  agree that it has occurred in other Bills, but I do not know how it has been got over, and I think we ought to have some explanation.
  May I call attention to another point? This is a Money Resolution, but there is not total sum mentioned. It is a bad habit that has grown up since the War to take these Resolutions after 11 o'clock, but this is the first time I hare seen a Financial Resolution with no total sum mentioned. The late Government were able to tell us what they thought the total figures of unemployment would be for the year. Can this Government say what they will be for the rest of the financial year up to 31st March next? I do not ask for them up to 1st January, 1928, although we are dealing with that here, otherwise we are simply voting money in the dark. We do not know what the liabilities will be at all. I would like to see a fixed sum. I would like to suggest a sum, but perhaps that might be out of order. I would limit it to £5,000,000, and then the House would have an opportunity of going into the question as to whether the money was being properly used. We have now no check at all. Unless the Treasury can be persuaded by the Minister of Labour the House has no check or say whatever.
  The House hag no further check or further say in the matter. That is not right, and I think it is worthy of some explanation from the Government. I would not be in order in entering into the question of policy, but I want you to enter a protest against the monotony of this policy of the Government—of Government after Government. We have these Money Resolutions like this again and again. There is no light at all. I am making such protest as I can and I hope I shall have some support. It is only by this House protesting against this sort of thing—of coining to the rescue, that we will force the Government, whatever its complexion may be, to make some change. I utter the strongest protest of which I am capable against this—this lack of statesmanship.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Commander Eyres Monsell): We did not know through the usual channels that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was going to raise this question.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I notified the fact that I proposed to raise it.
  Commander EYRES MONSELL: It will, perhaps, facilitate matters if I say that notice of this Resolution was given last Thursday in the usual manner, and secondly, that the Report stage of Money Resolutions are exempted business and never, for one moment, should be taken before Eleven o'clock.
  Mr. ALEXANDER: I rise to support what has been said by the Parliamentary Secretary. So far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we had ample notice, and raised no objection to a matter of urgency being taken now. Whatever our views of the policy of the Government, the Money Resolution, or the Bill, we recognise that it is essential that some provision should be made by the House for financing the unemployment insurance scheme. From that point of view we adhere to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. T. Shaw) when the Resolution was in Committee. We are still concerned with the general finance set out in the Resolution; but it would try the House to go again into the- matter now. But I want to draw attention to one fact, that is the areas where unemployment is most rife, the operation of the finance of this Resolution will have a most serious effect. I represent the City of Sheffield, which has more Conservative than Labour Members, but I think hon. Members on the other side will support me absolutely when I say that the proposals of the Government, in the case of Sheffield, will have a most serious effect upon the burden to be placed on the poor rate, and also upon industry.
  We find on such an examination as we are able to make at present, that it is going to mean an increased charge on the poor rate of £600 to £800 a week, that is, a charge of £30,000 to £40,000 a year to be paid by the ordinary ratepayers and by the industries in a heavily-burdened area: and even if an industry is not working there will be no escape from it.
  The Minister of Labour announced, wisely I think, that he proposed to set up a Committee to inquire into the whole financial position of the State's provision for unemployment. When

  1687
  the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking in the Debate, I think, on the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill he said the Minister of Labour was setting up this Committee to inquire into three things—firstly, the basis of the unemployment insurance scheme; secondly, into the finance of it; and, thirdly, into the administration of it. I want to ask the Government, in view of the very serious concern with which the effect upon the necessitous areas is viewed by the local authorities, in those areas, whether they will be prepared to widen the scope of the inquiry, and to inquire very carefully what is going to be the actual effect upon the local administration of the boards of guardians in England and Wales and the parish councils in Scotland as the result of this Bill. Is the Minister prepared to take direct evidence from the people who are administering the Poor Law provisions on the parish councils in Scotland and on the boards of guardians in England and Wales, so that he may have a general view as to what the effect will be on the whole system of relief, whether that relief in respect of the unemployed be by insurance or by provision made from the Poor Law rates? This is a most serious question, and I want to know whether the Government will do that. Secondly, I want to know if the Government have under consideration, or will be prepared to consider, making any financial provision at all in the meantime until the result of that inquiry is known in those areas where the additional charge on the poor rate as the result of this Bill is going to be so heavy? We in Sheffield are in a very bad position. We have very large loans outstanding to the Ministry of Health, and they have met us up to a point by allowing the interest not to be collected for the time being; but the whole situation is so serious that I do ask the Government to give us a reply on this question.
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Arthur Steel-Maitland): Perhaps I may answer quite briefly one or two questions that have been put. The whole of this scheme, as I think the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) knows, is based, so far as finance is concerned, on the figure of 1,300,000. At
  1688
  the present moment the numbers on the unemployed registers are a little under that figure, but not a great deal. The number of people who may be affected it is impossible to state with any accuracy, but about 40,000 were previously affected, and probably the. same result would occur now. The calculation made by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) was concerned with the fractions of one-eighth of a penny paid by the Government. Evidently he is not aware that under the finance of the insurance scheme the Treasury contribution is not paid every week but is calculated and paid in a lump sum later on. Consequently, only a multiplication sum is necessary and the corresponding figure is credited to the Fund. As regards paying a lump sum and no more, that would be contrary to the contributory nature of the scheme, whereby a proportionate sum is paid by both the State and by masters and men. If the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) will bring before me any points he would like placed within the scope of the inquiry. I shall be ready to go into them.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut. -Commander Kenworthy) raised the question of this Financial Resolution being taken to-night, and said he did not know that it was going to be taken to-night.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: The hon. and gallant. Member for Montrose (Sir R. Hutchison) says he was not informed that this Money Resolution was going to be taken to-night, and he did not know that any other business except the Estimates was going to be put down.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I see that the Minister of Labour has drawn up a table with respect to insured persons, including men, women, boys and girls, and I notice that, after the expiration of a certain date in 1926, their contributions are to be altered. When those alterations were made every man was entitled to receive benefit at any age. A man over 70, provided that he was genuinely seeking work and was fulfilling all the conditions under the Act, was entitled to receive the

  1689
  benefits and therefore his contribution and the Government's contribution were fixed. Since then another Bill has been brought before the House, which alters that fundamental principle which was that every person under the Act could draw his benefits at any time provided that he was an insured person. Now we are passing a table for the insured person and the old conditions under which these payments were fixed and Tinder which insured persons made their contributions is now being radically altered and changed. The contributions were fixed on the direct understanding that a person could draw his benefits at any age provided that he carried out the regulations. By this table all this is entirely altered. The Exchequer contributions which are fixed in relation to what a man contributes ought to be recast and remodelled seeing that you are now depriving a man of benefits under the new Widows and Orphans Bill and depriving him of what he has insured for and for what he has made his proper contributions.
  It seems to mo a point of material importance that the contributions and the Exchequer grant are fixed always in relation to the benefits that will be payable, and now, those benefits having been curtailed, it seems to me that this table, and the table relating to the workmen's contributions, ought to be remodelled. I do not like to upset arrangements that have been come to between Whips, because we all stand to benefit to a certain extent by them, and it would be bad for all parties if arrangements were upset by individuals, but I am strongly tempted to divide against this Resolution, because it is not now the same Resolution that we first agreed to, having been altered inasmuch as the unemployed person over 65 is not going to get the benefit for his own or for the State contribution that he would have got before we agreed to this Resolution in Committee. There is a second point. I know it is difficult to divide against a Money Resolution, because if it were defeated the effect might be that the unemployed would get nothing at all, and that is the last thing any hon. Member wants. Last year, however, when the late Minister of Labour was introducing this Resolution, he was almost roasted alive with questions about
  1690
  what was going to be the total liability of the State, how much he thought they would have to contribute at a certain date and so on, and I am going to ask the Minister of Labour the same questions. I hope he will give us a full estimate of what the cost to the State will be under this scheme, and, seeing that the benefits have been radically altered, is he going now to reduce the premiums and contributions that are asked from the workpeople under this Bill?
  Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: This is a matter that affects a very large number of people. The Minister has for some time justified in this House, and also in reply to correspondence from Members of the House, the non-payment of benefit to large numbers of people who in our opinion are legitimately entitled to receive benefit, and one of the arguments he and those behind him have put forward is that the Fund cannot afford to pay unemployment benefit to the large number of unemployed who are on the books, and the regulations have, therefore, to be applied move rigorously now than in the past. I should like to know, and I am certain a large number of people who are unemployed would like, to know, why it is that in this Money Resolution the Minister is taking the opposite point of view, and has evidently arrived at the conclusion that it is possible to reduce the contributions, and that not so much money is required now as in the past, although he has been maintaining all along that the Fund was not sufficiently strong to enable sufficient money to be accumulated to pay benefits to those who are justly entitled to them.
  I, for one, am not against reducing the contribution. As a matter of fact, Dr. Macnamara, when Minister of Labour, always taunted me in reply to anything I said by telling me I had all along been in favour of a non-contributory scheme. I plead guilty to it, and I stand here advocating the same thing with just as little shame as I have ever had in advocating a non-contributory scheme of unemployment insurance. If the contributions that are being levied upon the worker and the employer could be wiped out I would welcome any Money Resolution brought in to carry that into effect. But the point that weighs strongly with me is the different attitude that is being taken up now by the Ministry of Labour

  1691
  from that which has been taken up in the past. I suggest to the Minister that when he goes into the question a little more closely, when he considers the large number of people who are being refused benefit, when he considers the very large numbers of men who are approaching the age of 65— and the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has pointed out the change that is taking place by the bringing into the pension scheme of the men who are 65 and over and who therefore will be outside receiving any benefit from the scheme of unemployment, but what about the man who is just over 60? What about the individual who to-day, being over that age, is being told by the Minister of Labour's officials in London and other parts of the country that even at the age of 60 he is not likely to be again employed in an insurable occupation, and consequently he is not entitled to receive unemployment benefit? If these men by some chance—and many of them have obtained employment after having been told by the committees and exchange officials that they were not likely to be again employed in insurable occupations. They have given the lie to that decision by getting employment, not only in insurable occupation but in the very occupation they have worked in all their working days. In the event of these people finding employment at an insurable occupation after they have been unemployed and been refused benefit, what attitude is the Minister going to take up then? Is he going to tell them that the verdict given previously in their cases were wrong and that they are therefore entitled to receive back money because they are entitled to it owing to the contributions they have paid?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that is not permissible on this Resolution. We are dealing only with Exchequer contributions. Those matters may be raised on the Minister's salary, but not on this Resolution, which docs not deal with it at all.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I was leading up to the same point. Perhaps I was stressing too much the refusal to grant benefit to those people who are now being turned down. Supposing one of these men gets employment again in this insurable occupation and pays the contributions that are to be
  1692
  part of that sum that is to go to build up the fund that the present Money Resolution is to assist in building up. Suppose an individual gets employment and continues to pay contributions until he reaches the age of 65, when he comes into his old age pension under the Contributory Pensions Bill, for which he has paid. What is going to happen to the money he has paid out in the interval in the light of the fact that he has previously been disallowed benefit on a wrong decision? The Minister ought to point out very clearly what is to be done, especially when he is asking the Exchequer to find money to assist in the payment of unemployment benefit to the people who are unemployed. This problem will mean the end or the breaking up of any Government until a proper solution can be found. We have these Unemployment Bills every year, we have amending Bills, and Money Resolutions, and on every occasion the Minister of Labour, whichever Government is in Office, has to confess the failure of the Government to solve this problem, and go to the country to get more money with which to pay the poor victims of industry. I want to know, the country wants to know, and the insured contributors ought to know, because it is possible they may become unemployed very soon if the unemployment figures continue to increase, and the Minister ought to state that when this Money Resolution has been passed, and the Unemployment Insurance Bill now before Standing Committee comes back to this House—if it ever does come back; there is very little likelihood of it coming back before August—and is passed by this House, he will take up a more humane attitude, and the Government will show more sympathetic consideration to the cases that come before the Minister for decision by him.
  Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: I will endeavour to answer the questions put to me; first by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). The total State commitments are, with regard to men, an increase of l¼d., women three-farthings, and young persons three-farthings. The total will amount to £2,200,000. In addition to that there will be a further 1d. given by the State in respect of men, and one-halfpenny in other cases, at the end of each quarter, when during the quarter

  1693
  the amount of deficiency on the Unemployment Fund is not less than it is at the end of 1925.
  The hon. Member for Gorbals and the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) also asked me what would happen when the old age pension scheme of the Widows' Orphans' and Old Age Pension Bill comes into operation. First, as regards the contributions, I trust that if the Fund then permits, the contributions will be reduced to the contributors to the scheme. It has always been contemplated by previous Ministers of Labour and previous Governments that that would be so as soon as the pressure on the Fund, due to unemployment and other causes, is reduced. As regards the older men, when the Widows' and Orphans' and Old Age Pensions Bill comes into operation in January, 1928, if a man of 65 gets work under those conditions, he will not be then required to pay any contributions. The hon. Member for Govan has referred to what he doubtless quite sincerely thinks were statements of mine as to the cutting off from benefit of many who were entitled on the score of lack of means. To the best of my knowledge I never made any statement to the effect that I had done so, and I never have done so.
  Mr. MACLEAN: I did not make that statement. I did not say that you were rutting them off because of lack of means, but that you were making out that the deficiency of the Fund was so great that you must economise. It was not lack of means on the part of the individual but on the part of the Government.
  Question, "That this House doth agree, with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

  DISEASES OF ANIMALS [MONEY]
  Resolution reported.
  "That it is expedient to make provision for contributions, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, towards the compensation payable by local authorities for the slaughter of cattle, in accordance with orders made under The Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. in case of the existence or suspected existence of tuberculosis, of sums equal to three-fourths of the amount of compensation so paid by them."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Captain GARRO-JONES: This is an other of these blank cheques so far as I can see. Is it not possible to put any sort of limit on this? The limit is not in the Resolution, but in the Paper which accompanies the Resolution, and therefore it is not binding. We had a somewhat similar experience in relation to foot-and-mouth disease, which landed the country into great expenditure, and the wisdom of that was seriously questioned at one time. Who is to decide whether an animal is affected with tuberculosis or not? It is difficult enough to decide in the case of human beings whether they are so affected, and we might find an increasingly large number of animals slaughtered which have not got tuberculosis. Who decides the compensation to be paid? It was paid on a very lavish scale in cases of foot-and-mouth disease. The last paragraph of the White Paper says:
  "As regards Northern Ireland the contributions will in the first instance be paid nut of the Exchequer but will be recovered by deduction from the Northern Ireland share of the reserved taxes."
  I presume that that refers to the taxes reserved under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. Is that fund in a thoroughly solvent condition? A great many demands have been made on it, such as the contribution of the Government of Northern Ireland for Imperial expenditure, and I am not aware that these have been met. Is there any guarantee that they will be met in the case of payments made by the Treasury under this Resolution?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I have consulted the hon. and gallant Member for Montrose (Sir R. Hutchison) and ho informs me that he had no knowledge whatever of this Resolution being brought on to-night. I do not make any great point of that because a Money Resolution may be taken at any time of the night or morning, but if this sort of business is going to be brought on without; notice, and if hon. Gentlemen who work with me on these benches are not to have notice, I do not think that that is a proper way to conduct business. This is a Resolution of a very serious nature. It really arises out of the Act of 1894, which I have in my hand, with regard to the diseases of animals and in looking through this Act I do not see anything about tuberculosis in it. This is a Money Resolution to provide compensation for the farmers and other owners of animals

  1695
  which are slaughtered in connection with the disease of tuberculosis. The diseases mentioned in the Act do not appear in this Money Resolution neither do I see in the Act itself, on looking through it, any mention at all of tuberculosis, and I think we should have an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture on this point as to why we should have a Money Resolution on one particular disease and not for other diseases of animals. My hon. and gallant Friend beside me has suggested that there should be some limit. I wish to make an Amendment on that somewhere—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid the hon. Member cannot move an Amendment. The Question already before the House is "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Lieut.-Commander K.ENWORTHY: The Memorandum on the Financial Resolution says
  "the subsequent annual cost to the Exchequer in respect of Great Britain is estimated at approximately £50,000 per annum while the expenditure to local authorities will be about £17,500 plus the cost of administration but minus the receipt from the carcases of animals slaughtered."
  Surely there are two ambiguities there. Do the receipts from the carcases of animals slaughtered and the cost of administration come off that £17,500 that is anticipated the local authorities will spend annually, or is there also to be deducted from the £50,000 the cost of administration and the receipts of carcases of animals slaughtered. The wording does not seem to be very clear and the money resolution does not help very much. I would like to know whether the estimate of £50,000 includes the cost of administration and also the receipts or not arising from the sale of the products remaining after the animal carcase has been burnt. We suspect considerable expenditure in the cost of administration and the Minister ought to give some guidance as to what the costs of administration are. The danger is that if an outbreak of animal disease, such as foot-and-mouth disease, occurs, the Government appoint veterinary surgeons all over the country in the affected areas with the idea of stamping it out.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon Member is getting very mixed in his diseases. This is tuberculosis.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I was quoting foot-and-mouth disease only as an illustration. I was pointing out that a great many extra temporary officials are appointed. I can see the extreme importance of this inquiry that I am putting to the Minister of Agriculture. It is the tendency for these temporary officials to remain on in their employment after their real work is over. We saw it after the war in every Government department. Therefore the cost of administration may be extremely heavy and unnecessarily heavy and it is necessary for us to be told, and I think we are entitled to have an explanation before we part with this Money Resolution whether the cost of administration comes out of this approximate £50,000 or whether it is in addition to it. The wording of the Money Resolution is vague. I will read it again.
  Mr. SPEAKER: That would be repetition.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I did not read it in full before, but I shall not run the risk of repetition. There is a certain vagueness, and I think we are entitled to information on that subject.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon, and gallant Member is repeating each sentence three times over. If there be any more repetition, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Certainly, Sir. In the Act itself it is very clearly laid down in Section 7, Subsection (3) that where animals are slaughtered compensation shall be paid out of monies provided by Parliament. That is as clear as anything could be in the original Act of 1894. Why, then, is it necessary to make this provision? We are told it is necessary to pay out of monies provided by Parliament 75 per cent. of the compensation obtained from the local authorities. If my reading of the Act of 1894 is correct it is already provided that the whole compensation is to be paid in that way, and there seems to be some divergence from Section 7 of the Act. I should be obliged for some information on that point. Further, we should have some more information as to the amount we are voting.
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Most of the points raised by the hon. and gallant Member were raised in detail

  1697
  when the Money Resolution was in Committee and most of them were, to my mind, satisfactorily answered by the Minister of Agriculture. It seems rather a pity that the reply of the Minister was not read by the hon. and gallant Member, who could thus have saved a certain amount of the time of the House. I only wish to put to the Minister one point, as to which we did not feel fully satisfied with his reply when the matter wag previously discussed. We are deeply concerned, from the consumers point of view as to whether any part of the carcase of an animal, which has been condemned and for which compensation has been paid, shall be used for human consumption. Under terms of the Money Resolution, the provision relating to local authorities is governed to some extent by the question of pro-coeds from the sales of the carcases of condemned beasts. That would seem to be placing a premium on the practice of selling for human consumption the remainder of a carcase which had been condemned as being infected by tuberculosis. The Minister in his reply on Friday said that on the general principle of safeguarding the consumer, he was in complete agreement with me, and he added:
  "I think I may safely say, that no meat-liable to be prejudicial to the health of the consumer is allowed at the present time to be sold—at least not knowingly."— [OFFICIAL RETORT, 10th July, 1925; col 821. Vol. 186.]
  That statement does not go far enough to meet us. We are not convinced that in the case of any animal with a blood circulation, which is condemned for tuberculosis, any part of the carcase through which the blood has been pulsating is free from infection. We think no such part should be used in any circumstances for human consumption. We do not seek to restrict the expense which the Minister proposes to undertake but we think he ought to go further if necessary and provide more money so that there shall be no question of these carcases being used ultimately for human consumption.
  The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Edward Wood)The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Edward Wood) rose—
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I wanted to raise a point. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I pretest against this conduct, and I am not going to be "ordered." This kind of con-
  1698
  duct is most unfair. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Order."] I tried to get in on the last occasion, but a Front Bench man cut in, and I can get no reply to my point. This procedure is most unfair, Mr. Speaker. I had no intention of delaying, but I wanted a reply from the Minister.
  Mr. WOOD: I do not know what the hon. Member wants exactly.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I wanted a reply from the Minister.
  12 M.
  Mr. WOOD: I am anxious to give a reply, and that is why I rose. I share the regret of the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and, I think, the hon. Member for South Hackney (Captain Garro-Jones) were not able to assist us in our deliberations on the Committee stage of this Resolution. Had they been able, I think they would have heard the case thoroughly debated, and the points put to me to-night by them would have been answered The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull made a point arising out of the wording of the White Paper and asked what was the precise meaning of the wording about receipts from carcases slaughtered. If he reads the Memorandum on the financial Resolution, he will see that it is estimated that the cost to the Exchequer will be £50,000, and that the expenditure of the local authorities will be £17,500, but that towards the £17,500 they will have whatever may be derived from the sale of salvage, but that forfeit will have to be taken of the cost of administration. That is a matter entirely divorced from the expense falling on the central authority.
  Mr. MACLEAN: Will the cost of administration be additional?
  Mr. WOOD: Yes.
  Mr. MACLEAN: On the local authorities?
  Mr. WOOD: Yes, but there may be deducted from, that whatever they may be able to make by salvage, and that brings me to the point raised by the hon. Member for Hillsborough. He made the point when this Resolution was in Committee, and I assured him then, speaking offhand, that I did not yield to him in my anxiety to ensure that no portion of meat that

  1699
  might be considered diseased should be used for food. I have been able since then to refresh my mind, and perhaps inform it, as to the exact machinery that operates in such cases as those that will arise under the Order; and what actually will happen will be this, that the carcases of animals killed under this Tuberculosis Order will be submitted to the public health authorities, as are all other carcases of animals intended for human con sumption, including, of course, those carcases killed by butchers in the ordinary course of their trade. The duty of the meat inspection service is in change of the medical officers of health, who have, of course, nothing whatever to do with the administration of the Tuberculosis Order and are solely concerned with the consideration of human health. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that side of our local administration is under the Ministry of Health, but I have taken steps to inform myself of the circulars that have been issued to local authorities on this question of meat condemnation and meat approval, and if the hon. Gentleman has not seen it I would invite his attention—if he is not able to obtain a copy, perhaps he will allow me to send him one—to a Memorandum that was issued by the Ministry of Health to local authorities for the information of their officers under the date of 16th March, 1922, which, I think, amply covers the point about which he is concerned. He may rest assured that no meat that has been inspected and found unfit for human consumption will ever be passed. His fears, therefore, are not well founded.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I have no wish to detain the House, but I protest against procedure that prevents a back-bencher from speaking and getting a reply from the Minister. It is most unfair. I have as much right to speak as any frontbencher. The material points I want to put relate to the contribution of the national authority as compared with the local authority. I know that this question was raised on the Second Reading, but I was not then able to be present. I am not an agricultural expert and the points I wish to put have been brought to my notice since the Second Reading. The Minister says that the authority which condemns is entirely independent of the other authority. But very often
  1700
  the official, the veterinary surgeon, who acts under the Diseases of Animals Act, is also in the employment of the local corporation. That was the case in Glasgow. I understand that the medical officer of health has a certain control over the disposal of carcases, but he is very often employed by the two authorities concerned, and there is, therefore, not sufficient control. Suppose that an animal has tuberculosis. It is inspected and the presence of the disease detected. A portion of the animal is destroyed, but the other portion is sold. The Glasgow Corporation Markets Committee constantly had before them the question whether the portion that was sold had been contaminated, and there was a great difference of opinion among medical officers as to whether that portion might be affected. What absolute guarantee have we, in a big community like Glasgow, that the portion sold is not tainted? I am not an authority on the subject, but I am able to speak from my own experience on the Glasgow Town Council. It is the opinion of a very large number of medical people that in persons who are tuberculous, although one part of the body may be less affected than another, yet the disease spreads throughout the whole body. It seems to me, therefore, that you cannot separate it in the animal, and I think it would be fair if the whole animal were destroyed and nothing kept at all. Even if there is no taint, there is a constant dread in the public mind, and it would be a cheap thing to get rid of that dread. I am not at all satisfied about the contribution of 75 per cent. Take Glasgow, for example. Every county in Scotland sends cattle into Glasgow, and if they are diseased we have to pay 25 per cent., which is not our burden, but in the case of Glasgow the burden of the whole of Scotland. We think it ought to be increased, because in a place like Glasgow, or even Aberdeen, they have to bear a burden that is not their burden, but the burden of the whole of Scotland. The last point I want to put is this, to ask the Government on what date they are going to introduce this new Order.
  Mr. WOOD: I will, with the leave of the House, answer the questions that have been put to me by the hon. Member who has just sat down. The answer to the last

  1701
  question is that the Milk and Dairies Act comes into operation on 1st September, and this Order will come into operation on the same date. With regard to the point raised about the 75 per cent., I am not disposed to argue with the hon. Member about the contribution, but I think that Local Authorities on the whole will be satisfied with 75 per cent., although some might like more. I would remind the House that this Order is a resurrection of the Order of 1914, under which 75 per cent. was adopted. With regard to the hon. Member's earlier observations, he will recognise that they are concerned rather with the Ministry of Health than myself. All I can undertake is to draw the attention of the Minister of Health to the observations of the hon. Member and impress on him their importance, which I think it will hardly be necessary to do. The hon. Member suggested that it was necessary to have some control in the interests of public health in that the Medical Officer of Health was concerned in the slaughtering side of the business. I do not know whether he had present to his mind that the Medical Officer of Health is an officer irremovable except by consent of the Minister.
  Mr. BUCHANAN: I know that.
  Mr. WOOD: That makes a fairly sharp distinction, and it was done by Parliament to insure that administration was carried out in the interests of public health. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will be able to give the House the order.
  Captain GARRO-JONES: On a point of Order. The Minister did not give any explanation of the last point I raised. I desired to ask your notice to the last line of the Resolution in which it states that a sum equal to three-quarters of the contribution 60 made shall be made by the Treasury. We have to take cognisance of the last paragraph which states as regards Northern Ireland that contributions will be paid out of the Exchequer. It does not say in full, but it means in full.
  Mr. SPEAKER: What is the point of Order that the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires to put to me?
  Captain GARRO-JONES: I desire to ask you Sir, on a point of Order, whether the Money Resolution authorising the payment of three-quarters of the sum actually authorises the payment of the whole in
  1702
  the case of Northern Ireland, and has to be recovered out of a fund which may or may not be in existence.
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is not a point of Order. The hon. and gallant Gentleman can raise that matter on the Bill.
  Question "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Edward Wood and Mr. Guinness.
  DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL,
  "to provide for contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the compensation payable by local authorities for the slaughter of cattle in accordance with orders made under The Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, in case of the existence or suspected existence of tuberculosis," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time this day, and to be printed. [Bill 226.]

  ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) ACTS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under The. Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the urban district of Guisborough in the North Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 9th day of June. 1925, be approved."—[Colonel Ashley.]
  Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY: Should we not have some explanation of this matter?
  The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): The matter has been the subject of the inquiry. It is to enable the urban district of Guisborough to supply electricity to the inhabitants of the district who desire it very much.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and con-finned by the Minister of Transport under The Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the township of Alwoodley and part of the township of Adel-cum-Eccup, in the rural district of Wharfedale, in the West Riding of the county of York, which was presented on the 20th day of May, 1925, be approved.—[Colonel Ashley.]

  STATUTORY GAS COMPANIES (ELECTRICITY SUPPLY POWERS)BILL.
  Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.
  Lords Amendments considered accordingly.
  Lords Amendments, down to page 1, lines 17 and 18, agreed to.
  CLAUSE 2.—(Providing for capital powers to statutory gas companies for electricity purposes.)
  Lords Amendment: In page 1, line 18, at the end, insert "or any Order having the force of an Act of Parliament."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. Clarry.]
  Mr. ALEXANDER: What is the explanation of this Amendment?
  Mr. CLARRY: This was put in more or less by those supporting the Electricity Commissioners. The only opposition which the Bill received in the House of Lords was completely satisfied.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.

  SEEDS ACT (1920), AMENDMENT BILL.
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed.
  The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-Three Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.

HOUSING.
  COST OF LAND.
  COST OF LAND.
  STATISTICS.
  STATISTICS.
  HOUSE CONSTRUCTION (TIME TAKEN).
  HOUSE CONSTRUCTION (TIME TAKEN).
  ISLE OF WIGHT (COMPLAINTS).
  ISLE OF WIGHT (COMPLAINTS).
PUBLIC HEALTH.
  SCARLET FEVER, PORTSMOUTH.
  SCARLET FEVER, PORTSMOUTH.
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  TUBERCULOSIS.
  INFANT MORTALITY, MARKET DRAYTON.
  INFANT MORTALITY, MARKET DRAYTON.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
  RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
  RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
  CASUAL WARDS (TASKS).
  CASUAL WARDS (TASKS).
  SUGAR BEET FACTORY (FOREIGN MACHINERY).
  SUGAR BEET FACTORY (FOREIGN MACHINERY).
  ENEMY ACTION CLAIMS.
  ENEMY ACTION CLAIMS.
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (EX-SERVICE MEN).
  TERRITORIAL WATERS (OIL POLLUTION).
  TERRITORIAL WATERS (OIL POLLUTION).
  CHINA (DISTURBANCES).
  CHINA (DISTURBANCES).
ROYAL NAVY.
  LIEUTENANTS (PROMOTION).
  LIEUTENANTS (PROMOTION).
  COMMISSIONED GUNNERS (PROMOTION).
  COMMISSIONED GUNNERS (PROMOTION).
  COOK RATINGS.
  COOK RATINGS.
  CAPITAL SHIPS (WARRANT COOKERY OFFICERS).
  CAPITAL SHIPS (WARRANT COOKERY OFFICERS).
  MALTESE OFFICERS' STEWARDS AND COOKS.
  MALTESE OFFICERS' STEWARDS AND COOKS.
  NEW CONSTRUCTION.
  NEW CONSTRUCTION.
  OFFICERS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  OFFICERS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (FOREIGN MATCHES).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (FOREIGN MATCHES).
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (STATE MANAGEMENT).
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (STATE MANAGEMENT).
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, PENTON-MEWSEY.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, PENTON-MEWSEY.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.
  UNEMPLOYMENT.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  ADMINISTRATION.
  ADMINISTRATION.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands on the Paper in regard to these Bills.
Moved, That the order made on the 2nd day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 30th of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bills read 2a accordingly.

LAND DRAINAGE (BLACK SLUICE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 5) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (WATER) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 6) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 7.) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 8) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MNISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 9) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I would ask for the patience of the House, because it is impossible to lay before you in a few words the extent of the evil or the nature of the remedies proposed. The Bill is no invention of mine. It is really the Bill introduced into the House of Commons by Sir Evelyn Cecil, and it has been found impossible, owing to the pressure of business there, to proceed as he wished to do with the consideration of this measure. The Bill which he introduced followed upon one introduced some two or three years ago, which was referred to a Select Committee, and this one is the consequence of the evidence taken before that Committee and of the report which the Committee made. This Bill was backed in another place by many members of various Parties. It would perhaps be worth while to mention them. I have not the Bill here, but I know it is backed by members of the Liberal Party and by members of the Labour Party standing high in the counsels of that Party who had been Ministers in the late Administration. Therefore I think it comes before this House and before the public with a great weight of authority in its favour. It is not the mere fantastic proposal of a single member.

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It will be necessary, I think, to go a little into the history of this matter. I should not have taken it up, but that after one or two notorious recent cases I was spoken to by representatives of foreign countries resident and representing their countries here, as to the great evil which was done to England by the publication of details of those cases. I was told by them that such publications were impossible in their own particular countries; that the people of those countries formed their opinion of this country from those publications and came to conclusions about us which those who spoke to me knew to be thoroughly unjustified. They, being resident in England and in high positions here, were aware of the character of the people of this country to an extent to which the ordinary residents on the Continent of Europe could not expect to be.
This Bill deals chiefly with the publication of the proceedings in the Divorce Court. It deals also with other matters, but principally with those. As I said, the evil has been widely known and long acknowledged. The Divorce Court was set up somewhere about 75 years ago and since that time the amount of detail published in regard to cases tried there has increased day by day. It has been assisted by science in the form of photography and moving pictures, and so it is far worse than it was when the Divorce Court had been but recently established. Yet it is worth noticing, I think, that so long ago as December 26, 1859, Queen Victoria wrote a letter on this subject to Lord Campbell, who was then Lord Chancellor. This will be found in "The Letters of Queen Victoria," at page 482 of the third volume of the book published in 1897 by Mr. Murray. There the letter to Lord Campbell is given and, if your Lordships would permit me, I would read a few passages from it. The Queen said this:—
"The Queen wishes to ask the Lord Chancellor whether no steps can be taken to prevent the present publication of the proceedings before the new Divorce Court. These cases, which must necessarily increase when the new law becomes more and more known, fill now almost daily a large portion of the newspapers and are of so scandalous a character that it makes it o almost impossible for a paper to be trusted in the hands of a young lady or a boy."
Now if that was true in December, 1859, how much more flagrant is the abuse to-day. There can be, I think, no question about it.
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I do not propose to read to your Lordships extracts from these papers. It is bad enough that they should be read once. I only appeal to your Lordships' own knowledge of what is published as to whether it is not true to say that, as Her Majesty anticipated, the evil has grown out of all proportion since that letter was written. The Queen concluded by saying that the effect of these publications must be most pernicious to the public morals of the country. Again I appeal to your Lordships, seeing what is going on, is it not obvious that the public morals of the country are worse than they were? Who can doubt that the familiarising of all manner of persons with these disgusting cases is greatly to blame for the present deterioration of public morals? What did the Lord Chancellor do? Lord Campbell wrote back to Her Majesty. The Editor does not give the letter, but he says that Lord Campbell wrote to Her Majesty to say that he had attempted in the last Session to introduce a measure to give effect to the Queen's wish and, having been defeated, he was helpless to prevent the evil. And so the evil persists, and in a grosser shape.
I have looked at what Lord Campbell did. The debate is to be found in the Session before this letter was written. What Lord Campbell did was to propose, in a Divorce Bill then before the House, to provide that all these cases should be heard in camera—in secret. Various noble Lords spoke upon this subject, which is one which necessarily divides opinion rather sharply, and the end of it was that the Lord Chancellor said that he could not stop it in that way. The present Bill does not affect to provide such a remedy as that. It is a totally different one, as your Lordships will see when I come to it. All this time having elapsed since 1859, this Select Committee was appointed and many witnesses were called before them. The Committee made a Report in which, on page 8, are these words:
"If, as we do not doubt, it is often the cumulative effect of evidence and statements, any of which would not be liable under the present law as being obscene, which do the mischief, the obvious remedy is to limit the publication of evidence and statements."

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That is the remedy now proposed—to limit the publication of evidence and of statements. The Report goes on:—
"The pernicious transformation of sordid stories into epics for profit cannot really be restrained in any other way."
And the Committee conclude their Report with these words:—
"Your Committee think that if a choice has to be made the high standard of national character must be chosen."
That means rather than permit these things to be published for profit. It is for that that they are published. They are not, in a Blue-book published by quite different people.
Before this Committee many witnesses were called and, among others, Mr. Frederick Peaker, President of the Institute of Journalists. His evidence is on page 72 of the Report of the evidence taken by the Select Committee. He was asked:—
"Have the Council of the Institute taken any action in this matter up to now?
"A.—On the 10th March of the present year the Council of the Institute passed the following Resolution:—
" 'Whilst prepared to offer determined resistance to any attempt at censorship of the Press, the Council of the Institute of Journalists place on record their strong disapproval of the increasing tendency in newspaper reports to publish and give undue prominence to nauseous and intimate details of divorce petitions and of murders and of other criminal cases.'
and it referred the question to the Executive with a view to such further action as may be considered advisable."
I venture to think that no proof could be stronger of the necessity for some such measure as this. That is the evidence of a man respected in the business of journalism, and he gives also the opinion of the Institute as to the necessity for a remedy being found. A little further on he was asked:—
"Is it owing to competition that no agreement is possible?
"A.—I think it is owing to the fact that big circulations have been built up on this sort of thing."
Is it expedient that such a business as this should be allowed to flourish and increase?
There are many businesses in this country which it has been found necessary to regulate. The sale of poisons is regulated. What is this upon which the big circulations have been built but
134
a most subtle, corroding, fatal poison. I would put the ground of prohibiting the circulation of these things on the same ground as that, upon which the Legislature forbids the open, public, unnecessary sale of poisons. Beyond that I have a cutting from a newspaper, and it is the only one I desire to read to your Lordships. It was sent to me the other day and it is from the Yorkshire Herald of the 10th of this month. In a leading article upon the subject of this Bill that newspaper said:—
"Few will deny that such an Act is overdue. The reports which have emerged from the Divorce Court during the last few years have done more harm to the public morals of this country than any other influence we can remember except the lewd novels and quasi-scientific books on sex matters generally written by women, which disgrace our literature and degrade the national character"—
the very point taken by those who spoke to me before I touched this matter. The article goes on—
"So much will be admitted by all who can take an impartial view of the question. Under Lord Darling's Bill every material fact that it is necessary for the public to know could be given in reports of cases in the Court. All that would be excluded are those mephitic details the publication of which at inordinate length has sickened every decent-minded citizen."
I know there are enemies of this Bill and therefore I must substantiate a little the ease for it. The article I am quoting from proceeds:—
"The people who are assailing the real liberty of the Press are those who have failed in the task of differentiating between what is salutary and what is harmful in a newspaper report. Some of the Sunday papers are the worst offenders."
Who can doubt that? This is not an exaggerated statement. It is a statement by a great, respectable journal on its own authority writing of what it knows. I will only quote this further:—
"Some of the Sunday papers are the worst offenders. Those we have in mind have made great fortunes out of the garbage of the courts."
It is rumoured that some newspapers are owned by members of your Lord-ships' House. If it were possible I think we should like, in the course of this debate, to hear what they have to say about a charge like that, and I hope we shall.
I began by reading the letter of Queen Victoria to the Lord Chancellor which

135
said how great the evil was in her day. Might I venture—I cannot do it except in the language which those who come from Oxford speak to the Lord Chancellor and in which he replies to them—to remind your Lordships that it was written long ago:
"Aetas parentum, pejor avis, tulit
Nos nequiores mox daturos Progeniem vitiosiorem."
I can only hope that the result of this debate and I trust the passage of this Bill may be that the prophecy of Horace will not be fulfilled and that those who come after us will be better than we are. They need not be over-good then. I know it is said by some that there are already remedies for stopping what is obscene. Yes, there are. There is the old Common Law and there are certain Statutes and even the Newspaper Acts, which gave the Press great liberty but yet contained a proviso that the publication of indecent matter was not permitted. But there is a great difficulty in enforcing these particular remedies. I am glad to see my noble friend who was responsible not so long ago for the direction of public prosecutions in his place, and I hope he will tell your Lordships what he told you two or three years ago, why it is that the existing law has failed to put a stop to these fearful, degrading publications.
This Bill, in regard to these particular reports, does something which is new. These cases, such as were proceeded against under the Common Law or under some of the Statutes, must necessarily be tried by jury. This Bill proposes to make these proceedings take place before a magistrate and that a conviction should be a summary conviction. Why? Is it not necessary, if the public have become degraded, and what I have read tends to show that they have, that these particular citizens who are selected to sit on juries are not immune from this particular disease, and how can we send to them people who may be charged with these offences? It was mentioned by Sir Archibald Bodkin, the present Director of Public Prosecutions in the evidence he gave, that this fact was known, and it was known long before Sir Archibald Bodkin was born. If you will read Measure for Measure you will find this—
"The jury, passing on the prisoner's life, May, in the sworn twelve, have a thief or two
Guiltier than him they try."
136
How is it possible to say, when bringing cases like these before a jury of twelve people, many of whom on their way to the court have certainly been studying the particular case whose publication we desire to prevent, that they are in a position to give a fair and unbiassed consideration to the indictment.
The people who are brought before these courts, as is mentioned in the Report, have by the publication of their doings come, in many instances, to be regarded as heroes. There can be no doubt about it. Their portraits are as well known as though they were jockeys. In a chamber contiguous to this there is a cartoon which represents the woman taken in adultery. Your Lordships, I have no doubt, know it. The street very much resembles the Strand. There are pieces of granite and stones about convenient for lapidation, and the lesson it is intended to teach to the people is not to kill the woman by throwing stones at her. How different is the situation now. Instead of being punished, every act during the day she attends court is described, her dress is described, her photograph taken and she becomes a public heroine. There is no need now to tell the people not to be too hard on the woman taken in adultery. She is treated very much as one would desire to treat Joan of Arc or the Maid of Saragossa.
This Bill provides for the limiting of these reports in certain particulars. Paragraph (b) of Clause 1 says this—
"In relation to any judicial proceedings for dissolution of marriage, for nullity of marriage, or for judicial separation or proceedings before a court of summary jurisdiction in which an order for judicial separation is made or applied for, any particulars other than the following, that is to say:—

(i) the names, addresses and description of the parties and witnesses;

(ii) the grounds on which the proceedings are brought and resisted as set forth in the petition and answer and particulars thereof;

(iii) submissions on any point of law arising in the course of the proceedings and the decision of the court thereon;

(iv) the summing-up of the judge and the finding of the jury (if any) and the judgment of the court and observations made by the judge in giving judgment:

Provided that nothing in this part of this subsection shall be held to permit the publication of anything contrary to the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection."

137
Penalties are provided for an infringement of these provisions if the Bill becomes law, but I need not go into them now. If they are too light or too heavy that is a question to be dealt with in Committee. I have already spoken longer than I intended and I do not want to overload the burden I have laid upon your Lordships' patience. All these things can easily be regulated when the Bill goes to Committee.
It might not be uninteresting, however, if I tell your Lordships something of the law in foreign countries. These proposals are not revolutionary, they are not proposals of an untried nature. In France, by the Code Civile, Article 239, which is dated April 18, 1886—this has been the law of France ever since—the Courts may order a charge to be heard in camera. That is exactly what this House would not do in the year 1859, when such a proposal was made by the then Lord Chancellor. But that was done in France, and it has been remarked that they order these things better in France, but I do not say that. A reproduction of the proceedings by means of the Press in regard to divorce is forbidden in France under a fine of from Frs.100 to Frs.2,000. In Article 250 of the Code Civile of the same year a préis of the judgment and order is to be displayed in the hall of the Courts, and a similar précis is to be published in certain newspapers which circulate in the neighbourhood. In Belgium witnesses in divorce cases are heard in camera. There no special order as to reporting them is needed; what the witnesses say is not said in public. As a matter of fact the, reports of all these eases are very meagre indeed. The practice is apparently the same in Switzerland and in the Netherlands. In New Zealand a Statute was passed in 1908, by which the Court might order the trial to be in chambers, that is, in secret, and might decide, whether the case was heard in chambers or in open court, whether the publication of the evidence should be allowed or forbidden.
I apologise to your Lordships for the length at which I have detained you, but this is, I think, a subject well worthy of the attention of this House and, because it cannot be adequately ventilated elsewhere, and for no other reason, I have ventured myself to lay the matter before
138
your Lordships. I trust that, after the consideration of all the points—and I know that there are difficulties—this Bill will not only be read a second time but, so far as this House is concerned, whatever others may do, an example may be set and something may be done for public decency by passing this Bill through all its stages.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Darling.)
THE EARL OF DESART: My Lords, my noble and learned friend was good enough to refer to me and, more or less, to invite me to say a few words to your Lordships this evening and to give my reasons for supporting, as I do most warmly support, this Bill as an attempt to deal with an evil which, I think, is recognised by nearly everyone in this country and in relation to which most people would be willing to assist any remedy, if such remedy can be found, which would be accepted by Parliament and would be likely to be effective. On April 24, 1923, this subject was discussed fairly fully in your Lordships' House on a Question put by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh. It was rather a remarkable debate in this sense, that noble Lords spoke from almost every part of the House and, though they differed, no doubt, on some points of detail, there was, I think, no voice raised that did not recognise that it was almost imperative that this question should be dealt with in some manner and that some endeavour should be made to check the terrible mischief that, as I personally have no doubt, arises from the dissemination of this horrible and cruel stuff from day to day among all classes in this country. You can find papers—I am not going to specify them—in which one short paragraph tells of things which may be vital to great interests, which may be of the utmost importance, side by side with four columns of reports of this character, with wholly unnecessary detail, which can be of no serious assistance to the cause of justice, which disgusts readers and is infinitely cruel to the parties concerned.
I notice that in that debate the Lord Chancellor, after very naturally making some observations as to the difficulties of this subject, went on to say:—
"I believe that attempts have been made in that direction, but hitherto without

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result. The other proposal that I made was that legislation should be introduced in another place by those gentlemen who were members of that House. I believe that effect will be given to that proposal and that my right hon. friend Sir Evelyn Cecil intends in a short time to introduce in another place a Bill for dealing with this matter. I feel sure that the introduction of such a measure will lead to the serious consideration of this question, and it may be that the feeeling in another place will be so strong that the measure will receive sanction there and will come up to your Lordships for consideration."
Things have not worked out precisely in that way, but my right hon. friend Sir Evelyn Cecil has, I believe, introduced a Bill or, at any rate, there is a Bill before your Lordships which is on the lines of that which I know he suggested and desired.
I addressed your Lordship on the occasion of the debate upon Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Question, and I do not propose for a moment to repeat all that I said then, but I find that this is obviously a Bill which I should be hound, on my own words, to support, because I then, in reference to suggestions made by Lord Buckmaster, whom I wish we had with us to-night, used these words:—
"That which I would suggest is practically the same: that there should be published the names of the parties, the charges made, the result, and the report of any discussion on a point of law which arose in the course of the proceedings. I cannot see that the interests of public justice could possibly require any more than that. …"
That is very nearly, if not quite, the provision in the clause of this Bill which my noble and learned friend read to your Lordships, and I should be very glad if the measure could not only pass this House but pass into law in that form, or something like that form.
I do not believe that there is any hope that negotiations with the Press—a misleading word—could really produce any useful result. The Press is not an entity at all. It is a number of individuals who hold different views and have different standards, and that which we have heard to-night shows that you cannot proceed very far in that direction. If you did arrive at an agreement, unless it were put in legislative shape there would be no possibility of securing the carrying out of that agreement. I can see no remedy except legislation, and I can see little hope for legislation unless it has either the good offices or the direct action
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of His Majesty's Government. It is suggested—it is generally suggested on this question, as my noble and learned friend pointed out—that the existing law is sufficient to prevent indecency. I do not want to dogmatise—I do not think that I am a dogmatic person—but I should like to answer that simply in three words: It does not. I am convinced that this is really the truth of the matter.
I have had some experience in these eases and, to begin with, I do not know what the standard of indecency is. It varies in different generations. I remember that I was impelled very forcibly and very much against my will, if I may say so now, to institute a prosecution against a certain firm of publishers. I do not remember what the exact result was, or whether there was a conviction or not—I do not think there was—but I am quite sure that, if that standard of indecency were applied to-day, three or four out of every ten novels that are produced at present would have to be the subject of a prosecution. I remember another case in a totally different connection which concerned magistrates destroying indecent photographs. Proceedings were taken in two different police districts. One magistrate said that the things were grossly indecent—which I think they were—while the other magistrate said that they were most beautiful classical pictures and that it was a pity to do anything to suppress them. That is one reason.
The other is that the men who desire to publish this garbage are perfectly skilled in their profession and would not put anything in the paper that could possibly provide a foundation for the charge of indecency. It is by suggestion, it is by innuendo, it is by the publication of actual documents that they have not written but that are produced—that is the way it is done, and you cannot possibly found a prosecution for indecency upon that. It is a different evil; it is suggestion. I think it is incumbent on somebody in authority, if this measure is a measure that should be passed, to sit down and try to devise something the Government can support. I do not think there is any difference of opinion as to the harm it does and the scandal it is. I do not know that I am very hopeful; it is very difficult to be hopeful as it has been known for so long. Recent events, however, have shown

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that it is not at a standstill; it is growing. We all know the freedom that quite young people have and we know that they must run against all sorts of unsavoury things in their daily life, but they should not have these things forced under their noses. It is quite unnecessary. What possible service to justice can it do? What possible harm to justice could result if it was restrained? I do not believe anybody differs about that.
Another thing which has always struck me, very much is the immense cruelty to the people concerned. What are these divorce cases? They are the tragedies of lives that began happily and hopefully. It is cruel that these people should have everything about their past shouted in the streets, put on the placards and read by everybody, and that they should themselves be photographed at the trial. It is cruelty beyond words, especially on matters in which the public have no right to have an interest. It advantages justice in no way that I can see whatever. Indeed, it has rather the contrary effect. I have known cases in my own experience in which important witnesses, who ought to be called, have asked when they were asked for their statement: "Am I to give this evidence in court? Will my name be in the papers?" and when they were told that they must give evidence in court, they replied: "I will not tell you anything." I do not blame them; I think they are perfectly right. In that sense it is a detriment to justice. I have only said these few words to show why I warmly support this Bill, as I should warmly support any Bill to deal with this evil, which I regard as one of the greatest magnitude and calling for the attention of everyone in this country.
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, this Bill has been explained very fully in the two able speeches which we have heard, but I look in vain for a clause in the Bill which will deal with judicial pleasantry on the Bench. There has been a great deal of judicial pleasantry with regard to a good many of these subjects in the Bill, about whose contents we have heard a great deal, and I think a clause inserted dealing with judicial pleasantry would have a great meaning.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, it is the fact that this
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Bill is, I believe, almost identical with one which has been introduced in another place. I do not think that any of your Lordships would complain on that ground of the action of my noble and learned friend in introducing the Bill here, because we all know that this House does afford opportunities for the discussion of matters of public interest which cannot always be obtained so readily in the other House. Therefore the noble Lord has quite naturally introduced his Bill here. The Bill is, of course, a Private Member's Bill, but the Government have naturally considered what their view of the Bill should be, and I will state quite shortly how the matter presents itself to me and, I believe, to my colleagues.
I think the case for a Bill is very strong. Everybody feels and admits that it is injurious to public morals that indecent matter should be published in our Press and so come into the hands of young people. That cannot be denied. I am afraid also that there is some truth in the suggestion that the discretion of the Press, in which we have been accustomed to trust, is not in every case so carefully exercised to-day as it has been in past times. At the same time I, of course, make no kind of attack on the Press as a whole. In many cases great care is exercised to exclude from the columns of the Press matter of an indecent nature, but it has been admitted time after time, by those who represent the Press and journalists, that there are exceptions, that there are newspapers which are too ready to publish matter which should not be displayed before the public eye.
Attention has been called to the matter not only by Queen Victoria but by other members of our Royal House and by many people in every grade in life. Your Lordships will not forget this, that for some purposes publicity is necessary for justice. When a man or woman has been publicly accused and the matter comes into court then, if the judgment of the law is in his favour, it is right that, that fact should be brought to the public knowledge. On the other hand, there are cases where, if a verdict is against him, it is equally just that he should suffer the penalty of publicity. Therefore one must take care not to endeavour to suppress publication of

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facts of that kind where the very publication is essential to justice being done, and not to create suspicion in the public mind that because there is secrecy there is some defect in the administration.
I have made, not now for the first time but for some years past, an endeavour to weigh these sets of considerations one against the other, and I have for some time considered that seine restriction on the present licence of publication is desirable in itself and would not be inconsistent with the other considerations to which I have referred. What is the real difficulty? Why is it, although this publication is in itself a breach of the law, that it is so seldom brought with success to the notice of the courts or, at all events, that it so seldom leads to a verdict against the person charged with that offence? I do not entirely share the views of my noble friend on the subject of trial by jury. I have great confidence in our juries, especially in matters affecting character, and I believe that if the law were put into the right shape you would find juries, like Judges, perfectly ready to enforce it. But I believe the real difficulty is that the law, as it stands, makes indecent publication—that is, publication of a nature calculated to injure public morals—so much a matter of opinion. The law is really not quite definite enough and I venture to say that any amendment of the law had better be in the direction of making more clear and more exact the offence with which you are dealing.
I have read this Bill very carefully. I do not for the moment pledge myself to its details, but I think the Bill is framed on those lines. It proposes, first of all, to define the offence of indecent publication and, secondly, in a special class of case, to put it broadly, matrimonial cases, to confine the right of publication to certain essential facts. Whether the details of the Bill are right or wrong I do not for the moment attempt to say, but I think that the framers of the Bill have proceeded upon the principle of endeavouring to make the law clearer than it is and more easily apprehended by those responsible for the Press, to whom the matter is, of course, of vital moment. Having said what I have said, your Lordships will understand that, while the Government are not responsible for details, while I do not mean that your Lordships may not wish to propose some Amendments to the
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Bill, on the whole we do regard the Bill with sympathy. In saying that, of course, I must not be understood as undertaking that in this crowded Session any facilities will be given for this Bill; that must be a matter for future consideration in regard to the state of public business. But with that warning I am bound to say that if your Lordships give a Second Reading to this Bill to-day I think the right course will have been taken.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, we who believe in this Bill have listened with the greatest encouragement to the words of the noble and learned Viscount, on the Woolsack. I only add a few words because, by your Lordships' leave, I gave evidence before the Committee in the House of Commons when this Bill was being considered by a special Committee. I put in evidence four copies of one newspaper which had twenty-four columns in four editions of one divorce suit. This is a matter that has stirred the indignation, not of the clergy nor of the Bishops only, but especially of the teachers of this country. I think 15,000 teachers of all denominations sent in a petition with regard to this very question. They said that these proceedings were debasing the minds of their pupils, and when one little boy of thirteen was asked what he had been reading all the afternoon it proved that he had been reading the details of one of these divorce suits.
It is, therefore, a subject which has become a burning subject in the country. There is the greatest indignation about it from one end of the country to the other, more especially with those who are dealing with the young. The curious thing is that at first the Press were very favourable to something of this kind, but in the last five or six months the tone of the Press has turned round. I have no doubt, however, that the real fact of the matter is this. I will illustrate it from another sphere of work. When I was trying in East London to close the shops of a certain district on Sunday there was always one butcher or one baker who held out and would get all the custom when the others were shut up, and this was always stopping the whole thing. My own belief is that if the iron hand of the State would come down nine-tenths of the newspapers would be very glad indeed. I believe that the fact is that

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they simply dare not allow one of their competitors to be left as the only paper publishing this kind of report.
The idea of a Judge stopping the case and saying that such-and-such a thing must not be said is quite impossible. I regret very much that I was not able to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Darling, but I am sure he must have shown how impossible that is. Again, when the noble and learned Lord himself asked that incest cases should not be heard in camera, it is impossible for us to press that cases should be heard in camera. We naturally respect such an opinion and we do not press that such cases should be held in camera. When we come to the objections to this Bill, we hear all the old stories of the liberty of the Press, of which, of course, we are all proud in England. But the liberty of the Press is a totally different thing from the licence of the Press and one really cannot entertain the objection that the liberty of the Press requires the pouring out of this filth for the poisoning of the minds of our children.
Again the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has pointed out that we do not want to have no publicity. That is not the idea of the Bill at all. The names, the statement of the ground of proceedings, and the summing up of the Judge may be published—everything, that is necessary to be in the papers. And therefore it seems to me that a really overwhelming case is made on this occasion for State intervention. I do press the Government. I know how difficult it is, but if they would only take this Bill I believe they would get it through in a short time; I do not think there would be much opposition to it at all. What I do feel is that the question is whether we, the decent people, are the masters in our own households or not. I think that probably ninety-nine per cent. of the people in this country are Christian and are decent people, who want to keep our literature decent, but it is a question of whether we are to be masters' in our own household or to be at the mercy of a few blacklegs of the Press.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, it is quite certain that the noble and learned Lord who introduced this Bill will receive grateful expressions from many quarters of the country because of his action, and not less the right rev. Prelate who has just
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spoken and who is at the head of a movement, for the promotion of morality, which is fraught with benefit to the country. A noble Lord had something to say about pleasantry from the Bench. Personally I am not a believer in jokes from the Bench, but I have yet to learn that the noble Lord who introduced this Bill has ever said anything jocular about this question. The very fact that he has a deserved reputation as a wit lends a. further appropriateness to his action in this matter. It is a great tribute to him that a number of representative people from other countries came to him and pointed out the great evil done to the reputation of this country by the often nauseous reports of these eases and made an earnest request to him to do what he could to check this evil.
One point was made by the right rev. Prelate which I should like to emphasise. To any who have doubts about supporting this measure, especially those belonging to the Press, I would point out, as the right rev. Prelate pointed out, the position of those who have responsibility for young people—parents in general, guardians, and so on. What are they to do? They cannot shut out the newspapers from their homes, and if they tried to select papers which they thought would not contain these reports it would lead to curiosity and, perhaps, do more harm than good. They have to face the difficulty that if these papers come into their houses with these reports in them they know that the young people of the household will instantly turn to those reports. The noble and learned Lord said: "Why should these things be thrust under people's noses?" With great respect to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, I think there will be a feeling of disappointment regarding his announcement that he could not undertake that His Majesty's Government would give facilities for the Bill. That is a sort of benevolent neutrality or, perhaps, a little more than neutrality. Though petitions to Parliament used to be so common they are now rather out of date, but I cannot help thinking—the right rev. Prelate will, perhaps, consider this—that if His Majesty's Government were made aware of the strong and widespread opinion there is upon this point they might be prepared to give facilities for such a measure even in the present Session.

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I do not know whether other noble and learned Lords will address your Lordships upon this subject. I thought that perhaps the Secretary of State for India, who has had such a large experience in using his mastery of the law, in codifying the law, and so on, would have something to say, though I do not know whether this is a subject which particularly interests him. We have had from the noble and learned Lord opposite some most valuable statements. With great deference, I should have thought that the Bill provided a precaution and a protection against the objection that it would not be desirable that cases of this sort should be, as it were, disposed of it private, or hushed up in any way. It is expressly stated in the Bill that the names of the parties and the main features of the cases are, or may be, published as they would be, of course. Thai surely would give the public all that they need to know about these cases and also give an assurance that the cases would be properly dealt with by His Majesty's Judges. We have sufficient trust in our Judges to believe that there would be no hushing up of cases or anything of that description.
The right rev. Prelate did not allude to his own most splendid work in connection with the Society for the Preservation of Public Morality, which has done so much in promoting a sound and healthy public opinion on these matters. I hope that the society will proceed with their work and will meet with all the success they deserve. In regard to the Bill itself I believe that it would have a good reception in another place, judging from what happened on a former occasion, when a measure dealing with morality in a more direct way than this was debated in your Lordships' House. A friend of mine then said to me: "What is the good of passing this Bill? It will not have a chance in the House of Commons." But what was the result? The result was that it readily passed through the House of Commons, and I believe that this Bill would pass through that House with equal readiness.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD): My Lords, I do not propose to detain your Lordships for more than a moment. The policy of the Government has been declared, as is proper in such cases, with the authority of the Lord Chancellor, and
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I naturally find myself in full agreement with the views he has expressed. The only reason therefore which has inclined me to rise at all has been that more than once in the course of the debate reference has been made to some observations which I offered upon this topic some years ago, though I cannot precisely recollect the period. I adhere to the opinions which, not without consideration, I expressed then. I am not of the opinion that we are going enormously to improve the morals of the nation by this kind of legislation. In these matters I have never been one of those who thought that a partial reform of this kind, or even an accumulation of partial reforms were going very greatly to affect the course of public morals. My reading of history, such as it is, has led me to the conclusion that if you take the last two hundred or three hundred years the morals of the people in the main have neither very greatly altered for the better nor for the worse. That, of course, is no reason why legislation reforming or reclaiming some tiny segment of the ground may not here and there point the road to improvement, and I desire to make it perfectly plain that I agree with those who have expressed the view that the publication of the details of many unsavoury proceedings in the Law Courts in the last few years in this country have approached the dimensions of a public scandal.
It is perfectly true, as other speakers have pointed out, that there is no other civilised country in the world in which licence is conceded to the same degree. I have in my mind particularly a case which ultimately came before your Lordships' House, sitting in your judicial capacity, and in which details were published day by day of over some seven or eight columns of the daily Press of a lubricity and indecency which certainly no other country in the world could have conceived as being tolerable, and I agree that if it is possible to stop that it ought to be stopped.
I now approach the proposals of this Bill, and here I find the real explanation for my troubling your Lordships with a few observations. The first clause is as follows:—
"It shall not be lawful to print, circulate or publish, or cause or procure to be printed, circulated or published—

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"(a) in relation to any judicial proceedings any indecent matter or medical, surgical or physiological details being matter or details the publication of which would be calculated to injure public morals or otherwise be to the public mischief;"
I welcome that provision while I do not express myself as sanguinely in relation to its probable consequences as some of those who have spoken in support of it. But I agree that it is worth trying. It is a positive rule in relation to which obedience may be required and in relation to which disobedience may be castigated.
I must frankly admit that I do not agree in the least with the observation made by my noble and learned friend on the subject of trials by jury. I do not agree in relation to the particular matter he mentioned; still less do I agree with his generalisations. My noble and learned friend, who spent the whole of an honourable and distinguished life in giving guidance not unilluminated by humour to juries, has quoted to-night a passage from Shakespeare which has indicated that in a trial for murder you may possibly find two thieves upon the jury. If we were so unfortunate, I should still venture to express the hope that the fact that there were two thieves upon the jury would not necessarily prove that there were two homicides. In any event, with great respect to my noble and learned friend, I think it is rather a pity that he involved these particular proposals with any reflections upon the jury system. I can inform him that when I laid my hand, at a time when it was thought necessary to do so, upon even the Grand Jury system there was a great deal to be said in favour of the change which I made, but had I attacked the ark of the covenant I could not have been subjected to such a blank wall of opposition as I met with then. I would greatly recommend to my noble and learned friend that what I might describe as the cradle if not the ark should be left for other hands, I will not say to rock but to destroy. I disagree with all that portion of my noble and learned friend's observations.
Now I approach a still more important matter in relation to the Bill. While I am in favour of Clause 1, I entertain the greatest doubt about the practicability of the provisions which
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begin with paragraph (b) and I will tell your Lordships, without troubling you by reading that paragraph, what the effect of it is. It puts into an entirely special class judicial proceedings for dissolution of marriage, for nullity of marriage, or for judicial separation before a court of summary jurisdiction, and, putting these proceedings in a watertight compartment, it says nothing is to be published except the names, addresses and description of the parties and witnesses, the grounds on which the proceedings are brought and resisted, the submissions on any point of law, the summing up, and so forth, of the Judge. I have this criticism to make. In the first place, provided you can make effective the first subsection which I have read to your Lordships, you do not really need the provisions, which, believe me, will be the subject of the most furious controversy, contained in this highly controversial subsection.
Why, for instance, in divorce proceedings, provided that the publication of those proceedings complies with the provisions of subsection (1)—in other words that it is not indecent—should you make a special rule for dealing with matrimonial proceedings? Matters of indecency may arise in any kind of proceeding. They are not by any means confined to the Divorce Court and what I am sure the framers of this Bill would be wise in doing is to rely upon the valuable provision that no newspaper shall publish anything which is indecent. The test of that is a decision of the Court. You take a newspaper to the Court and the Court has to say: Is this or is it not indecent? I venture to express my view that a jury is just as capable of deciding whether it is indecent matter as any other tribunal in this country. I know well that had it been put to a jury whether the evidence in the Russell case, as that case was tried at Nisi Prius and was universally quoted in our Press, was indecent, I do not believe any jury in the country would have acquitted the Press. If that is true, we should be careful to consider whether we should embarrass or overload the Bill by provisions which must be highly controversial.
We have the advantage in this House now of the presence of the very distinguished and experienced President of the Probate, Divorce and

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Admiralty Division. I do not know what his views are on this matter or how far he has reached a conclusion, but I should greatly hope before this stage of the Bill is disposed of that he might find it possible, with the knowledge which is wholly unrivalled in this House, to tell us whether in his opinion it would be an advantage or not to make an entirely special rule in relation to his own particular Court. I hope that these words, which are not intended to be unhelpful to the Bill but which, having some greater experience of this matter, I find myself at liberty to make, will not be taken as a discouragement by any one who supports the Bill, because, so far as I can, I would gladly assist it in its Parliamentary fortune.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I support the principle of this Bill heartily. I am sure there is a mischief in this country by the deliberate distribution for profit of moral poison especially calculated to affect the mind of the young and inexperienced, and nobody who has that belief can doubt that if there are legislative means of dealing with a gross abuse of that kind they ought to be taken. But a good deal of consideration of this subject has satisfied me that, although the evil is easy to define and is of that kind which I have described in its worst aspects, it is a subtle evil and my great doubt—when I have considered the matter from time to time now for, I think, something like three years at the invitation of persons who were more closely interested in it—has been whether the means which are proposed in this Bill are going to be the best means for dealing with that evil.
My noble and learned friend the Secretary of State for India gave the sanction of his experience and judgment to the main operative clause of the Bill. I think any lawyer, or any man of legal experience, who will read it will agree that it does very little more than affirm the existing law, and if you affirm the existing law against the dissemination of pollution and filth, and maintain the existing means and existing sanctions for preventing the evil, I am not so sanguine as some of my noble friends are that you are going to secure the objects you have in view. My right hon. friend, the author of the Bill as it was produced in the
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House of Commons, did me the honour of inviting me to give evidence before a Select Committee of the other House, and I gave it some evidence in which I directed attention to this aspect of the matter. I think, as my noble and learned friend Lord Birkenhead thinks, that the more practical knowledge you have about this topic the more you will feel that if you are going to make an effectual inroad against the evil towards which the Bill is directed you will have to give a great deal of careful study and attention to the subject.
What is proposed in the main is to make a prohibition of certain publications. To that I most heartily assent. Then it is proposed to make it possible to have a summary trial of cases of this kind. Now the worst offenders in these cases are people who command great pecuniary resources, and your summary trial may become as bad a nuisance as the thing against which the Bill is aimed, and it may well be that the publication of every item which is discussed in the summary trial, may be made a household topic by wealthy offenders who aim to make a profit out of the dissemination of filthy details. That, to my mind, is a grave risk.
Another thing is this. It is highly desirable, as I think—and I believe any man of experience in the conduct or administration of the law will also think—that you should do nothing to encroach—do nothing needlessly to encroach—upon our system of the public administration of justice. It may be tainted with evils, but a closed chamber is rarely sweet in a sanitary sense, and publicity about most things is of enormous benefit, as I believe, in the social and judicial sense There is a great risk, if you handle it carelessly, of doing injustice to individuals, of having a person charged with matters about which public report becomes rife and publication merely of the fact of his being acquitted. Now that, to my mind, is a serious risk for innocent people. There is a risk of your depriving the administration of justice of its deterrent influences. The deterrent influences of publicity in the administration of justice are among the most valuable influences at work in affairs where transgressors and transgression are being dealt with. I know that the

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publicity of certain classes of misconduct is a deterrent against misconduct. I know of the anger that some persons, to whom reference was made by my noble friend behind me earlier in the debate, Teel that their conduct should be made the subject of publicity. I do not sympathise with them. The mode for them to avoid publication is an entirely different mode.
I do not desire to take up the time of the House long on this subject. The direct prohibition, I am sure, is useful. I believe the first operative section is so framed that it may, probably, have good deterrent results, because decent people who conduct publications would be bound to put some one to see that they ran no risk of being charged with doing something indecent. I think there will be active supervision where perhaps less active supervision exists now. But as to the other matters, as to whether it is satisfactory to send these highly controversial questions to stipendiary justices or to a bench of magistrates, with an appeal afterwards, and leave the main subject-matter of indecent intent a question to be widely discussed, I hope those in charge of the Bill will exercise grave consideration.
May I venture to say this? Is it not possible to have a more summary remedy in a gross case than that at which you have aimed? Can you not find some tribunal which, when it is informed of a case of gross indecency, shall say then that the penalty, the immediate penalty, is a cessation of publication, not a cessation of the publication of the matter, but a cessation of the publication of the journal for a period? If you can find a tribunal to which you will entrust that summary power, let reference then be made by the Bill to some other tribunal to whom you can entrust final authority and until the judgment of the Court of Appeal has been passed prohibit any publication upon the matter of any of the details of the alleged offence or on any of the arguments which relate to it.
When we were dealing with a matter which affected the national and material interests in the War the Legislature did not hesitate to entrust tribunals with very absolute summary powers because they were required at the time; and it did not permit irresponsible discussion as to why the powers were exercised. I am not infatuated enough to suppose that I can
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invent a remedy for an evil which is capable of undermining the moral intelligence and the good intentions of inexperienced people, but I ask the authors of this Bill to consider whether really they are not applying to a sabtle evil an old-fashioned remedy which may be inoperative and which may, in its action, produce new causes of complaint. I ask His Majesty's Government to consider whether on this subject, which affects public, morals, the administration of justice, the freedom of the Press and the purity of the household—if you are going to deal with it by some method on which you can rely with some confidence that you can succeed—it is not worth while to pause upon the road and make an inquiry, not by the ordinary stages of a Committee of this House but by a Select Committee, or a Joint Committee, or by some other method, which can bring attention properly and carefully to the evil and the mode of dealing with it, and which may perhaps secure for this Bill the co-operation of all respectable and responsible elements in the Press, for all of them are desirous, I am sure, that the evil against which this Bill is aimed shall be brought to an end.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I am not going to intervene for more than a moment or two in the debate, but I am certain that your Lordships will feel that there is a very real advantage in the discussion which has taken place to-day. There has been no substantial difference, indeed no difference at all, as to the laudableness of the intent and the necessity of some action for giving effect to it. The speeches to which we have listened from the two noble and learned Lords have helped us better to weigh the subject in all its aspects by the fact that they were able to give us words of caution and counsel as to the manner in which the thing could be clone. I should feel that it is unnecessary for me to add anything to the testimony from these quarters as to the strength and widespread character of the support which is given to an endeavour of the kind initiated by the noble and learned Lord, but I want to say a few words in corroboration of what has been said regarding outside opinion, because if I do not say it a good many people might be disappointed—and many people are very keen on this subject.

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During the whole of last week we had an assemblage, within a few hundred yards of the place where we are now sitting, of very large numbers of men and a fair sprinkling of women, who met for the purpose of the Assembly of the National Church. I am not one of those who regard it as necessarily a good thing that an ecclesiastical assembly should be dealing directly with questions which are not definitely and strictly ecclesiastical in their character. Each case must be considered on its merits, and sometimes I think an ecclesiastical assembly is tempted to go a little outside the range of its proper province. But when a question like this affecting the morality and wellbeing of the people comes up, it would be entirely to belie the character which we wish the National Assembly to possess were we not able to debate, consider and resolve upon such a subject.
The amount of inside knowledge of the homes of the people possessed by an Assembly consisting of the Bishops of the dioceses and several hundreds of the parochial clergy, who work from day to day inside these homes, and the great mass of lay people, the preponderating laymen in the Assembly, elected not on political grounds but because of their interest in the public wellbeing, which they desire to promote—the accumulated knowledge which is possessed by such an Assembly is vast indeed, and it is a rare thing for us to obtain a unanimous vote. Most of the subjects can be, and rightly are, looked at from many different points of view, and unanimity is by no means an ordinary thing. When this subject came before us last week, as it did, and this measure in its outlines had been discussed, a vote was taken—I was in the chair and I took the vote myself—and it was a unanimous vote of the Bishops, clergy, and laity, men and women, that something of this sort was desired. They were anxious that the Government should take the matter in hand and deal with it drastically and at once. Therefore I feel it to be right to remind the House that those to whom special responsibility is entrusted with regard to our moral and social well-being came to the decision which they reached last week, emphatically endorsing the arguments which have been brought before us to-night as to the need of a measure of this kind and expressing a desire that it should become law as speedily as possible.
LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, there is one aspect of this Bill to which, I think; it might perhaps be useful to draw attention for a moment. As I understand the matter, the real object, from the public point of view, of the publication of the details of judicial proceedings is that the searchlight of public opinion should be turned upon the conduct of judicial business in the Courts. If paragraph (b) of the first subsection of Clause 1 of this Bill were passed as it stands, I see no adequate provision for turning the searchlight of public opinion upon matrimonial proceedings so that they may be adequately criticised by the public. The publication of the names of parties and witnesses, of the grounds alleged, of submissions on points of law and of the summing up of the Judge would give no adequate opportunity for such criticism. This is, I think, a point that should be borne in mind by the promoters of the Bill before it reaches its final stages. Paragraph (a) of the same subsection is not open to that criticism. It excludes the publication only of certain matter which does not involve the full conduct of the case.
There is one respect, however, in which, with deference to what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, adequate provision is not made in that subsection. What we really have to meet is, not the publication of the material evidence, but the abuse of, and the undue prominence given to, the unsavoury features of the case. One of the most serious matters, in my judgment, with which we have to deal is the publication of photographs, details of dresses and so on, to which allusion has already been made, and paragraph (a) does not meet that difficulty. What I should be inclined to suggest would be a general clause prohibiting the publication of photographs of persons, whether parties or witnesses, engaged in judicial proceedings. I do not know what mischief such a prohibition could do. It would be perfectly general in its application, it would not be confined either to matrimonial or to criminal proceedings, but it would exclude what is really the most cruel thing in the modern Press. An unlucky boy is indicted or brought up before the magistrates on a charge of murder and he finds his photograph on the following day broadcasted before the whole nation. Whether he is innocent or guilty is quite

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immaterial. That is one of the things that has to be met; it is not met, as I have pointed out, by this paragraph and I believe it can be met only by a general prohibition of the publication of photographs of persons concerned in judicial proceedings.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, I desire to say only a very few words in answer to the points that have been made. I am thankful to know that the Bill does command the assent of this House—so far as I can gather, a unanimous assent—to its Second Reading. As to the points to which attention has been called, they are, of course, from the nature of the position of those who called attention to them, matters to be considered with great care and adopted. That will be possible if this Bill goes to a Committee of this House. Since the most rev. Primate mentioned that which had been resolved at an Assembly of the Church, I think I may be excused for reading something that I felt it unnecessary to read before, as a sort of supplement to that which the most rev. Primate said. I received at this House to-day the following telegram:—
"The Wesleyan Methodist Conference assembled at Lincoln records its support for the principle of the Judicial Proceedings (Regulation of Reports) Bill now before the House of Lords and requests His Majesty's Government to grant facilities in the public interest, for the early passage of this measure into law. (Signed) John H. Ritson, President."
There are only two other points. The right rev. Prelate, the Bishop of London, mentioned that my name had been referred to in connection with the new law which provided that trials for incest should no longer be heard in camera. It is true that I did all that I could to get the former practice reversed, and now these trials take place in open Court. I know that it has been regarded as odd that I should promote this Bill, seeing that I took that course, but the position is perfectly logical, as I shall show in a moment. There is nothing in this Bill about trying these cases in camera. They will not be tried in camera. The reason why I did what I did was that a trial for incest does not often involve any filthy details. There is no especial filth in eleven cases out of a dozen.
When I was on the Bench, and found myself obliged to try these cases, the Court had to be cleared. I was the first
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Judge to say that the counsel should remain, whose business, I said, could not be properly learnt unless they attended a Court such as this. I did what I could to secure the public trial of these cases on the ground that they were not half as indecent as numbers of other cases tried at the Assizes and, above all, because incest had not been a criminal offence in the law of England for centuries. It was triable only in the Ecclesiastical Court, being an offence against Canon Law, and I found, when I sat on the Bench to try these cases, that until that Bill was passed people brought before me did not know that what they had been doing was an indictable offence. How should they, unless they had the printed copy of the Act? They would not know it, and they did not know it, and, as it seemed to me that the mere publication of the case would not be more indecent than the publication of twenty other cases that I tried at the same Assizes, I did feel that it was hard that people should be tried for a crime which they had no means of knowing had been recently created an offence, because newspapers gave no report whatever of these trials. A person would be taken from his village to the Assizes and would not appear in the village again for a long time, perhaps. Who knew what he had been sentenced for? Unless his family told no one would know.
There is one other matter. The noble Earl, the Secretary of State for India, found a little fault with me and more with; Shakespeare because Shakespeare has written and I have quoted that a jury "passing on a prisoner's life" might contain two thieves. He said that this was not to the point because in spite of Shakespeare a jury would not contain two homicides. No, but Shakespeare was not talking of a trial for homicide. In Shakespeare's day—if Shakespeare did write these plays, though some people think they were written by a Bencher of Gray's Inn—thieving was a capital offence. Shakespeare did not think that there were two homicides on the jury. The man they tried for his life was a thief.
It has been said that because I tried so many cases with a jury I ought not to criticise them at all. I do not see that at all. People criticise Judges and it is often said they are all

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the better for it. If one may criticise a Judge, why should not one criticise a jury? A jury is sitting now to decide if Mr. Darwin or some earlier author was right. Are we not to criticise that jury? We certainly shall. As a matter of fact, I never tried a divorce case in my life. I never sat to assist the Judges in the Divorce Court as other King's Bench Judges did, and I left the Bench before any divorce cases were triable at Assizes. I am very glad that this Bill has received the measure of support that it has and I thank your Lordships for having listened to me.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL (DISUSED BURIAL GROUND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, this is a very short Bill, which I hope will not detain your Lordships for any length of time. Its object is to give effect to an agreement made by the previous Government with the Seamen's Hospital at Greenwich. I believe that about the end of the War a very large sum of money was raised, principally by the efforts of one of your Lordships, Lord Devonport, to increase the size of the Dreadnought Hospital at Greenwich, and I think the fund was subscribed largely as some recognition of the great services performed by the mercantile marine for the nation in the course of the War. Your Lordships will realise that an extension of the Hospital is urgently necessary when I say that it deals almost entirely with seamen of all nationalities who come in ships into the port of London.
The only possibility of such an extension is across a road on to another piece of land belonging to the Greenwich Hospital Trust, a trust founded by Royal Charter many years ago, in 1694. It has always looked with a friendly eye on the Seamen's Hospital, which has continued the work that was at one time done by the Greenwich Hospital Trust. It was discovered that this site, the only possible site for an extension, was part of an old burial ground which had ceased to be used from about 1856 and it was therefore necessary
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to obtain the approval of Parliament for the use of that ground. I need hardly say that arrangements have been made whereby, if any human remains are found, they will be removed and decently re-interred in the present naval cemetery about half a mile away. The public have no access at present to this land, and I think your Lordships will agree that it is not really closing one of the very necessary lungs of London when I remind your Lordships that on one side of it is Greenwich Park, a very large area of open park, and on the other side is the river. I hope that your Lordships will agree to give this Bill a Second Reading and that its passage through this House will be as peaceful as its passage through another place.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ALLOTMENTS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD BLEDISLOE): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to increase the number of allotments and at the same time to increase the security of the tenure of the allotment holders. The Bill was introduced in the House of Commons by Captain Bourne, the Member for the City of Oxford, to whose skill and tact in piloting this measure through that House I should like to pay a well-deserved tribute. In its original form the Bill was carefully considered by the Allotments Committee of the Ministry of Agriculture, of which I am the Chairman, and its present form largely meets the views of that Committee. On that Committee, I may incidentally say are represented not merely different classes of allotment holders, both rural and urban, but also representatives of the local authorities and of the land-owning interest.
The objects and the general trend of the Bill received unanimous approval in another place, but many of its original clauses were deemed impracticable from an administrative standpoint, with the result that considerable Amendments were made both in Committee and on Report in the House of Commons, with,

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the result that it is, I believe, now practically an agreed measure. This being so, and in view of the great enthusiasm with which this Bill was received in another place, the Government have decided to take over the carriage of the Bill. I should like to say that I am particularly pleased that it falls to my lot to submit it to your Lordships' consideration and for this reason: I have long held the view that the allotment movement is the most live, the most promising and, nationally and presently, the most important land cultivation movement in this country. Apart from would-be allotments there is practically no real land hunger, as is sometimes alleged, in this country. There is hardly what I would call a land appetite except, possibly, in parts of Scotland, but there is, in and near the large centres of population a very real demand for small areas of from ten to twenty perches of land for the cultivation of vegetables, a demand, which, after allowing for some small abatement since the termination of the War, appears to be persistent and continuous.
A great impetus was, of course, given to the allotment movement for purposes of food production during the War. A large number of apparently worthless sites, seemingly mere rubbish heaps, were cleared during the War round London and other large cities and were cultivated, and good vegetables and other produce were raised upon them. The Ministry of Agriculture, under what are popularly known as the D.O.R.A. Regulations, acquired land compulsorily, but temporarily, for allotments for this purpose. In 1914 there were no more than 580,000 allotments, occupying 130,000 acres. In 1920 that number had risen to no less than 1,330000, occupying 185,000 acres. In 1923 (the last Returns that we have) the number had fallen slightly to 1,190,000 allotments occupying 170,000 acres. Allotment holders, your Lordships will notice, have more than doubled since 1914, but the acreage under cultivation has only increased by 13 per cent., which Thaws clearly that the demand for allotments has considerably exceeded the available supply of land. The area under allotments in this country is not excessive when compared with Continental countries. For instance, France
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has no less than 3,500,000 acres under allotments, or twenty times the area which is so cultivated in this counry.
The allotment movement was originally a purely rural movement, but now it is preponderantly an urban movement and, I submit, an extremely healthy movement which deserves, and should receive, encouragement from all those who have at heart the true interests of the nation. In the first place, it provides healthy and productive recreation which is suitable for persons of all ages; in the second place, it enables, in the aggregate, a very considerable amount of food to be grown at home which might otherwise be raised abroad; thirdly, it establishes a healthy sympathy—and all agriculturists in this House will, I am sure, recognise this fact—between the town and the country side. It enables large numbers of the urban population to understand and appreciate the point of view of the agricultural community. Fourthly, it develops a manly self-respect and a self-reliance which enables the cultivator, who is, as a rule, occupied as a paid servant in other employments, to occupy with success an independent position in his after-life. And I may say, incidentally, that it enables many of them to pass on to small holdings and to become very successful smallholders and their own masters in that position.
Then it tends by self-maintenance to mitigate the serious effects of widespread unemployment. We have reason to know that to-day, during a period of very abnormal unemployment, there are a very large number of people who would be thrown upon the rates and would be otherwise receiving eleemosynary assistance who are able to hold their own as the result of occupying allotments on the outskirts of the large industrial towns. And lastly—and I want to emphasise this—it is of very special value in promoting a feeling of contentment and counteracting much of the unrest which, unfortunately, prevails in populous industrial areas, particularly when industries are depressed and unemployment, is acute.
I should like to refer to a very interesting experience which I had in 1921, when I was occupying the position of President of the Bath and West Agricultural Society on the occasion of its Bristol Show. I was

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asked to distribute the prizes to the successful allotment-holders—holders of an area under cultivation for allotment purposes of not less than 105 acres just outside the great City of Bristol separated into a large number of different estates, the allotments being no more than ten perches apiece. I think there were something like forty different prize-winners, and on the occasion of the distribution of these prizes almost every prize-winner wanted to make a speech. The proceedings were naturally of some length, but the trend of those speeches was all to the same effect. I may quote one by way of illustration. A sturdy old man, who had been out of employment for some time previously, told the assembled multitude that he had been a Bolshevik and a preacher of revolution for some years before he found himself in occupation of an allotment, and he went on to say that all those stupid ideas had entirely vanished from his mind from the time that his nose had been brought nearer to mother earth. Similar speeches were made by a considerable number of other prize-winners on that occasion. If only some of those who are so vociferous in opposing extreme revolutionary propaganda would turn their minds to promoting the development of allotments, I am bound to say that in my judgment they would be doing far more good, and far more good of a lasting and constructive character. At any rate that has proved to be the experience round many of our large industrial centres, such as Bristol and Birmingham.
The contribution of allotments to the national food supply is very considerable—much more than is sometimes imagined. The amount available from any particular allotment depends mainly on the energy of the cultivator and his ability to apply technical knowledge to plant-production, but the Ministry of Agriculture have made certain tests recently in order to ascertain how much produce can reasonably be obtained from a well cultivated allotment, and they found that a ten-perch allotment is capable of providing as much as 10 cwt. of vegetables without any serious difficulty. This, we estimate, is sufficient to provide a family of persons with potatoes for seven months of the year, with their peas, beans, and other leguminous crops for half the year, and green crops, such is cabbage and kale, all the year round.
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Generally speaking, the allotment holder provides food only for his own household, and only in comparatively few cases are allotments cultivated with a view to the sale of the products. If the present allotments were cultivated as well as these model allotments the total contribution of the allotment movement to the nation's food supply would be at least half a million tons of food a year—no mean contribution, I suggest, especially in times of serious emergency.
Your Lordships will remember that a Departmental Committee was set up in 1922 to consider the possibility of extending and developing the allotment movement. It was presided over by the noble Earl, Lord Ancaster, who then occupied the position which I now occupy, and many useful recommendations were made for an extension of the law relating to allotments. Many of those recommendations were embodied in the Allotments Act, 1922. This Act seems to be working satisfactorily, but it is not quite adequate to meet the situation or to allay the feeling of insecurity of many of the best type of allotment holders. It is not always easy to reconcile the interest of the allotment holders with those who desire to see a full provision made in the neighbourhood of towns for recreation and also, especially, for building, and it has to be admitted that at least as regards building nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of satisfying the national need for houses on the most suitable sites.
Anxious as I am to see an increase of allotments all over the country, I do venture to hope that allotment enthusiasts will not press their claims in such a way as to alienate the good will of the local authorities, especially those of our large industrial towns, where it is often very difficult to obtain land, particularly for building sites. The lack of sympathy of such bodies does very much harm to the spread of the allotment movement. I claim for this Bill that it gives due consideration to the views of the allotment holders on the one hand and to those of the landowners and the local authorities on the other, and carefully holds the balance between apparently conflicting interests. At a recent meeting of the National Council of Agriculture, where representatives of different classes of the rural community were assembled from different parts of the country, a

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resolution was passed unanimously approving of the provisions of this Bill.
May I shortly give your Lordships the gist of the various clauses of this Bill, which is a short one, and then I will ask your Lordships to be good enough to give it your support? Clause 1 defines an allotment in the same way as the Allotments Act of 1922. That is, land not exceeding 40 poles in extent, wholly or mainly cultivated by the occupier for the production of produce for consumption by himself or his family, or, secondly, any parcel of land of not more than five acres in extent cultivated, or intended to be cultivated, as a garden or farm or partly as a garden and partly as a farm.
Clause 2, which is the most important in the Bill, authorises the Public Works Loans Commissioners to tend to an approved society up to two-thirds of the purchase price of land which is to be used as allotments. The amount of interest payable is to be determined by the Treasury and the loan is repayable within a period which is not to exceed 35 years. An approved society can only dispose of land if authorised by a resolution passed by two-thirds at least of the members present at a meeting of the society convened for the purpose. It is also subject to the consent of the Commissioners. I should like to say, in passing, that these allotment societies are doing a great deal to extend usefully the allotment movement and to develop it on much more business lines than it used to be conducted upon in former days. From the landowners' point of view they have now the great advantage of these societies paying an aggregate rent and taking upon themselves the whole responsibility for the discipline and working of the allotments under their control. They have rules of their own which, of course, prevent allotments being neglected and deserted to the detriment of other allotment holders. Speaking, generally, it has put the whole movement upon a much more disciplined and businesslike footing.
Clause 3 provides that a local authority, in preparing a town-planning scheme, shall consider beforehand what provision ought to be included for the reservation of land for allotments. Those towns that were sufficiently far-sighted to realise that there would be such a demand are nowadays, if they are extended, in a very much stronger position than those that
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did not exercise that foresight. I should particularly like to refer to the town of Swindon, which is as well-equipped is the matter of allotments as any town of its size in the country, although it has increased to an amazing extent in population during the last thirty or forty years.
Clause 4 enables the council of a borough or urban district to incur expenditure out of the rates for the provision of allotments, provided that the amount does not exceed a rate of one penny in the £. At the present time a council cannot purchase land for allotments unless it is anticipated that all the expenses, other than those relating to the acquisition of land and the making of public roads and sinking fund charges on the loan for the purchase money, will be defrayed out of the rent of the allotments.
Clause 6 modifies the provisions of Section 10 of the Act of 1922, under which an owner who desires to resume possession of unoccupied land, possession of which had been given by a local authority, was required to give not less than two months' notice in writing where the land was wanted for any purpose other than agriculture. This clause provides that the two months' notice shall be increased to three where the land is required for any purpose other than agriculture, sport or recreation. If cultivated land is required for sport or recreation the period of notice shall be six months and such notice shall only be given outside the cropping season; that is, on or before April 6 or after September 29. I thought I ought. to point out, if there is any criticism of this clause, that unlike the ordinary farm tenant under the Agricultural Holdings Act, the allotment holder, although he may have put a good deal of fertiliser into his land and there may be considerable unexhausted improvements, is wholly unable to obtain the value of those unexhausted improvements as, of course, the tenant of agricultural land is able to do. Section 10 of the Act of 1922 provided that the tenant of a local authority, on giving up possession, was entitled to compensation unless it was otherwise agreed in the contract of tenancy. In point of fact, in nearly all cases it was otherwise so agreed, with the result that the allotment holder did not, in fact, receive any compensation when the land was required for building or other purposes.

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Clause 7 provides that where the rent payable by the allotment holder is more than 3d. per pole or perch—that is, a mere nominal rent—the tenant shall be entitled to compensation notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary. He cannot contract out of it. The clause also provides that a council may, within three months of the passing of this Bill, give notice in writing to the tenant reducing the existing rent to the amount of 3d. per pole or perch so as to obviate the payment of compensation. I do not know whether your Lordships realise exactly what that means. It is still open to the local authority, if they choose, to relieve themselves of the obligation of compensation by reducing the rent of the allotment holder to a mere nominal amount.
Clause 8 provides that where land has been purchased for use as allotments by a local authority the local authority cannot dispose of the land for other purposes except with the consent of the Minister of Agriculture, and such consent must not be given unless the Minister is satisfied either that adequate provision will be made for the allotment holders displaced or that such provision is unnecessary or not reasonably practicable.
Clause 9 proposes to amend Section 11 of the Act of 1922. Under that section notice in writing of the purpose for which resumption of the land is required must be given by the owner to the local authority or the allotments association to whom the land has been let, and the local authority or the association may serve a counter-notice within ten days demanding that the question as to whether resumption of possession is bona fide required for the purpose specified in the notice, shall be determined by arbitration. The purport of this clause is to extend the period of time for such a counter-notice from ten to twenty-one days so as to give the tenants on the land adequate time to assert their rights if they wish to do so.
Clause 10 provides that the assessment for rates levied on allotment land cannot he increased during the first three Years of user as allotment ground. Clause 11 enables an approved society to whom allotments are let to require the eating authority to rate the society and not the individual allotment holder. Clause 12 provides that a local authority must set up an allotments committee where the
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total number of allotments provided by the council exceeds 400, even though the population may be less than 10,000. Your Lordships will remember that under the Act of 1922 there had to be a population of at least 10,000 before it was obligatory upon the local authority to set up an allotments committee of that authority. Finally, Clause 13 requires local councils to notify to the Minister of Agriculture the purchase price or rent agreed to be paid for land purchased or leased for allotments, and also to state the assessment for rating purposes al the date of acquisition.
I must apologise to your Lordships for going into all these details, but I felt hound to do so because it is only three years since your Lordships had an Allotments Bill before the House and the alterations which are sought to be effected by this Bill are to a large extent modifications or alterations of the Bill to which your Lordships then gave your assent. I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill and to hope that as this measure has been received with greater unanimity than any measure introduced in the House of Commons during this Session your Lordships will afford it like support.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Bledisloe.)
LORD OLIVIER: My Lords, the noble Lord will not be surprised that I give my very hearty support to this measure, having been connected with the same Department as himself which has always recognised the extraordinary value and the necessity of allotments for the completion of the life of the rural labourer. Not only are allotments required for the rural labourer. During the War urban populations and councils came to recognise that an allotment to the town-dweller is equally beneficial, and with the help of such a Bill as this it is possible to obtain such allotments.
There are, however, one or two little things in the Bill which strike me as rather curious. One is in Clause 8 where it is said that the Minister of Health shall not give consent unless he is satisfied. I do not know how you are to get the Minister to do that. Another thing is that the borough council shall once in the year take into consideration the question whether it can include a fresh scheme of allotments. What is to

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happen to the borough council if it dues not do that? It seems to me a little curious to put into law provisions of that sort. In my view it would be very difficult to enforce such provisions. They may probably be taken as counsels of perfection.
Another point in the Bill that I should like to refer to is with regard to rating. There is a provision that the allotment shall not be rated for three years at a higher value than that at which the land was rated before the allotment was started. That really is a wrong way of dealing with the matter. The allotments are generally taken up on unoccupied land in the neighbourhood of a town which ought to be rated higher than it is, and it happens that when that land is now taken up for allotments the rates are immediately put up; and the allotment holder has hitherto had a grievance. I very much prefer that that anomaly should be dealt with in a proper Way by providing for the rating of unoccupied land. However, we must be thankful for small mercies.
We must be thankful that the allotment holder is to be protected against a sudden increase of rates upon what he regards as his improvement. When this happens in a neighbourhood like Beading, adjacent to land which has been taken up by Sutton & Sons, the well-known seed people, you will have such firms complaining that their rates have been put up while the adjoining land devoted to allotments has not had its assessment increased. These ape little anomalies and I do not know whether we can ask the noble Lord to remedy them.
Finally, as the noble and learned Lord stated, this Bill received the enthusiastic support of all Parties in the House of Commons. Although, a few months ago, the Labour Party was told that the present Government was going to buttress the nation against the inroads of Socialism and Bolshevism by establishing a greater number of vested interests in land, the only trace that I saw of that in the noble and learned Lord's speech was his quotation of what an old gentleman said that he had been wheedled from being a Bolshevik by having an allotment. So far are my Bolshevik friends from being afraid that this Bill will tend to convert their supporters to the Party of my noble
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friend opposite, that they themselves moved a great number of Amendments in another place with the object of giving increased powers and facilities to local authorities to establish more allotments. I am not at all sure that I shall not, in Committee on this Bill, see whether your Lordships are not prepared to increase the facilities for giving allotments under it. As it is I give the Bill my hearty support.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I have been asked to say that we on this Bench are in general agreement with the provisions of this Bill, and that we shall do everything we can to facilitate its rapid progress through I his House. But I must say that I cannot agree entirely with the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture that this is an entirely non-controversial Bill. Originally it was a Private Member's Bill introduced with the support of His Majesty's Government. When introduced it had only eleven clauses, but since then it has been turned into a Bill with some fourteen clauses. A great many alterations have been made in the original Bill. When it came before a Standing Committee in another place it occupied five days in that Committee, and many Amendments were moved. When my noble friend says that it is now practically an agreed Bill and that everyone is satisfied with it—he may have better means of knowing than I have—I should like to draw his attention to the fact that I have had communications from a body well known to the noble Lord—I refer to the Bristol District Small-holdings Allotments Federation, which has some 6,000 members—which complains that the Bill has been whittled down in another place, and they have asked me to move Amendments, into which I shall not go to-night, because they are not satisfied with the Bill as it now stands. They prefer the Bill as it was originally introduced, and especially that part of it dealing with compensation.
We have the fullest sympathy with allotment holders and we desire to do everything to improve and nothing injure this Bill. I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is of the greatest importance to get urban districts to cultivate allotments. I can myself bear witness to the good it has done in such places as Bristol arid other great towns Men have told me what a boon the allot-

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ments have been to them. Everything we can do to foster a feeling of friendliness between the urban and rural districts, and to increase the number of voters of this country who have an interest in the land, we should do, because it will tend to stability. Those for whom I speak will support the Second Reading of this Bill with this caveat, that we should like in some way to give, if possible, greater facilities for the acquirement of allotments.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I am glad to hear from my noble friend Lord Bledisloe that this Bill is going to do so much. I am also glad to hear that the surest and simplest way of converting a Bolshevik is to let him an allotment, though I understand from the noble Lord, Lord Olivier—I do not want to misrepresent him—who is on very intimate terms with the Bolsheviks, that he does not think the letting of an allotment to a Bolshevik would have that effect.
LORD OLIVIER: I am on intimate terms with the Labour Party, who were described at the last Election by the noble Lord's friends as Bolsheviks.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I should be very pleased to subscribe a sum of money towards the letting of an allotment to the noble Lord if I thought by so doing I could convert him to sane political principles. May I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House whether we might not, at some time or other, have a Bill from the Government which does not spend money? I do not want to ask him to bring in a Bill which will save money. That, I think, is beyond all hope. I would like to ask whether it is not possible during the remainder of the time this Government is in power that no Bills causing expenditure shall be introduced. If your Lordships will look at Clause 2 you will see that money can be advanced by the Treasury to approved societies—
THE MARQUESS of SALISBURY: On strict security.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: Oh yes, there is something to be said for that provision; and I suppose it is due to the strong Conservative instinct of the noble Lord, Lord Bledisloe. But in Clause 4 the noble Lord forgot his Conservative
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instincts, and this is what this Clause provides:—
"Notwithstanding the provisions of Section sixteen of the Act of 1922 the council of any borough or urban district may take proceedings under the provisions of the Allotment Act relating to allotments if, in the opinion of the council, the expenses referred to in such section may reasonably be expected, after the proceedings are taken, to exceed the receipts of the council under those provisions by no greater amount, than would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound."
Another burden upon the ratepayer!
Then, when we come to Clause 5, we find this—
"The council of a borough or urban district may acquire land for allotments, notwithstanding that the land or any part of it cannot immediately be let in allotments, provided that the Minister of Health is satisfied, after consultation with the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, that there is reasonable expectation that the land will eventually he required for allotments."
That really is speculation in land and I do not know that the Minister of Agriculture is more likely to be successful in land speculation than the ordinary person. I sincerely hope that the noble Marquess the Leader of the House will try not to spend any more money for some little time to come.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I am in favour of allotments and I give my support to this Bill. Owing to certain changes which were made in the Bill in another place it has now become a workable measure. I hope my noble friend Lord Bledisloe will have a smooth passage for the Bill through your Lordships' House and that the noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, will not give him too much trouble.
LORD BLEDISLOE: My Lords, the Bill has been so unanimously approved and received with such enthusiasm from every quarter of the House that there is nothing I need add except to thank your Lordships for the way you have received it and assure you that any Amendment which Lord Strachie or any other noble Lord may put down for the Committee stage will receive every consideration. At the same time I hope we shall not attempt materially to alter the provisions of the Bill, because they were thrashed out in detail for several days in Committee in the House of Commons and by the time the measure emerged

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from the House of Commons there was a general agreement that it was a Bill which should receive the Royal Assent. I am glad my noble friend Lord Dynevor, speaking for the Land Union, has expressed full approval of the measure. They are a very vigilant body and very tenacious of the justifiable claims of the landowners. If, speaking for the union landowners, both urban and rural, he is able to say that he is prepared to give it his assent, it should go a long way towards smoothing the passage of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know what date is most convenient to noble Lords to take the Committee stage, but we thought of putting it down for next Wednesday.
LORD STRACHIE: That is a very convenient day.

DRAMATIC AND MUSICAL PERFORMERS' PROTECTION BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendments.
FORMER ENEMY ALIENS (DISABILITIES REMOVAL) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
FIRE BRIGADE PENSIONS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (CIVIL SERVICES) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

IMPROVEMENT OF LAND ACT (1899) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CLINTON: My Lords, this is a very short measure, which has passed
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through all its stages in another place without any controversy. I hope your Lordships will consider it of sufficient importance to give it a Second Reading and pass it here. The Bill, as it stands, is somewhat difficult to construe, but the meaning of the only executive clause is this. It is desired to remove certain doubts as to the power of land improvement companies to advance money to limited owners of settled estates for the purpose of rebuilding or improving the mansion house. During the course of the last century there were a considerable number of Bills dealing with settled land, all tending in somewhat the same direction, for the purpose of freeing owners—that is, limited owners—from the very strict terms of settlement and enabling them to borrow money on the security of settled estates for the purpose of carrying out certain specified estate improvements. Under the Act of 1864, the Improvement of Land Act, the improvements for which money might be borrowed are laid down. That did not include any power to borrow money for improving or altering the mansion house, but a demand for that power came later, that is after 1864, and in 1870 an Act called the Limited Owners Residencies Act was passed, authorising the improvement of mansions to be placed in the same category as other estate improvements, with two important restrictions or limitations.
Whereas, under the Settled Lands Act, ordinary estate improvements could be carried out with money borrowed for the purpose on the settled land, that loan becomes a charge prior to all other land encumbrances, and further there is no limitation as to the amount of money which the owner may spend on his property, except., of course, the authority of a certificate of the Minister of Agriculture. While that Act enabled owners to borrow from private individuals, it gave no power to the statutory land improvement companies to advance the money. That state of things continued until the year 1890. The Act of that year is, for this purpose, an important one to consider, because that Act, as we believed, freed the loans raised for the purpose of rebuilding mansion houses from the restrictions which had previously been placed upon them both as to priority of loan and also, to some extent, as to limitation of cost.

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Limitation of cost is there laid down so that the amount charged shall not exceed more than one half of one year's rental, but there is some doubt as to whether loans for those purposes were, under that Act, given priority or not, and that is the main reason why at this moment we are interfering with, and trying to amend, the law in that matter. Up to that time land improvement companies were not empowered to grant loans for that purpose. That came in the year 1899, when this power was given to them; but it is quite certain that under the Improvement of Land Act of that year the restrictions which were contained in the Act of 1870, both as to the power of borrowing money and as to the priority of the loans, were imposed upon the improvement companies. They were imposed by the proviso which we desire to repeal, and which reaffirms all the restrictions that were found in the Act of 1870.
When the Law of Property Act, 1922, which one may call the final Act, was passed, it dealt with certain constructional improvements to mansion houses, and, in the opinion of many authorities, it does give loans for that purpose priority over other loans. It does not, so far as I am aware, deal with the actual rebuilding of the mansion house, and I wish to impress upon your Lordships that there is some importance, at all events, in clearing up this matter and in allowing the improvement companies to deal with these loans in the same way as private individuals.
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It is a real advantage to the limited owner, if he is authorised by the certificate of the Ministry to improve his house in the way that he desires, that he should be able to borrow money for the purpose under the better terms which the improvement company is able to give him. I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Clinton.)
LORD BLEDISLOE: My Lords, speaking for the Ministry of Agriculture we make no objection to the passage of this Bill. I might say that, in all these eases where loans are given under the Improvement of Land Act to a land improvement company, the adequacy of the security is always taken into account before any prior charge is approved. That is, of course, the custom and most eases—indeed, almost invariably—the prior encumbrancers are notified with a view to their intimating any objection that they may feel about this prior charge being given. I can assure your Lordships that, in cases arising under this Bill when it is passed into law, we shall take care always to acquaint the prior encumbrancers in order to see that the security is adequate before such prior charge is approved.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at five minutes before seven o'clock.

WALSALL CORPORATION BILL.
  MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL.
  Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

SLOUGH TRADING COMPANY BILL.
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
London County Council (Money).
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

BATH CORPORATION BILL.
  BURNLEY CORPORATION BILL.

    BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL.
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; namely:—

    E. Strafford,

    V. Falkland,

    L. Castlemaine,

    L. Strachie (Chairman),

    L. Meston;

    agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Thursday next, at eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
SOUTH METROPOLITAN GAS BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, without amendment.
MINISTERS OF RELIGION (REMOVAL OF DISQUALIFICATIONS) BILL.
Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.