Sitting of 9 October 1924

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [Lords] (by Order),
London Electricity Supply (No. 1) Bill [Lords] (by Order),
London Electricity Supply (No. 2) Bill [Lords] (by Order),
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (DISSOLUTION OF PARLIA MENT).
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Entwistle): I beg to move,
  "That the Promoters of the Private Bills which have been brought from the House of Lords in the present Session of Parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereon in order to proceed with the same, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than One o'clock To-morrow, and that all fees thereon due up to that period be paid."
  This Order, standing in the name of the Chairman of Ways and Means, is quite a customary Order to ask the House to pass when they anticipate a Dissolution, and the purpose of it is merely to provide that promoters of Private Bills may suspend proceedings, and to afford facilities for them to renew them in the next; Parliament. There are many precedents for it. It has been done on frequent occasions. It is mentioned in the "Parliamentary Practice," and I hope the House will see their way to follow precedent, and pass this Motion.
  MR. W. THORNE: some of us feel very strongly on this motion, but, in face of the particular circumstances, we are not inclined to divide against it, after the appeal made by the deputy-chairman of Ways and Means.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  "That the promoters of the private bills which have been brought from the house of lords in the present session of parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereon in order to proceed with the same, if they shall think fit, in the next session of parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the committee and private bill office not later than one o'clock to-morrow, and that all fees thereon due up to that period be paid.
  That every such bill shall be deposited in the committee and private bill office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the house shall sit after the next meeting of parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the bill is the same in every respect as the bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this house in the present session.
  That Bills to confirm any provisional order or certificate introduced into this house, or brought from the house of lords, in the present session shall be suspended from the close of the present session, in order to be proceeded with in the next session of parliament.
  That the proceedings on every such private bill or bill to confirm any provisional order or certificate shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages.
  That the standing orders by which the proceedings on. Bills are regulated shall not apply to any such bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present session.
  That all Petitions presented in the present Session against any such Bills shall stand referred to the Committee on the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament.
  That this Order be a Standing Order of the House."— [The Deputy Chairman of ways and Means.
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

  STANDING ORDERS.

    STANDING ORDER No. 9A.—(Publication of notice of the objects of the Bill.)
    Mr. ENTWISTLE: I beg to move, in lines 12 and 13, to leave out the words "or Edinburgh."

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    This amendment and the following amendments on the paper are not of very great importance, but they have been on the order paper for a long time, and they are required for the purposes of procedure. They are only connected with the actual publication in the "gazette' of the objects of a bill sought to be promoted in this house. There is an ambiguity in standing order 33, where it is not clear whether in regard to a Bill affecting Scotland it must be publication in the "Belfast Gazette." That is removed by the Amendments to the Standing Order on the Order Paper. Similarly with regard to Northern Ireland, there is a complete hiatus in the Standing Order, and to remove that difficulty we are simply expressly providing that there must be publication in the "Belfast Gazette." The last Amendment of the Standing Orders is that a copy of a Bill affecting Northern Ireland must be deposited with the Home Secretary. Those are the purposes of the Motion. I am in the hands of the House, but if the Amendments can be passed by the House to-day it will be a matter of great convenience.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: I rise to take exception to the Motion. I think it would have been wiser on the part of the Deputy-Chairman if, instead of moving to leave out the words "or Edinburgh," and then to insert later the words
    "and if any powers are sought by the Bill which affect Scotland or Northern Ireland shall be also published once in like Edinburgh or Belfast Gazette,'"
    he had altered the words to "and Edinburgh," because it has to be borne in mind that there are many people in Scotland who have property connections in England. In fact, I think must of the property connections in England belong to Scotsmen. If the hon. Gentleman were to withdraw his Amendment., and move an Amendment on the lines I have suggested, it would meet with the general assent of the House. But, as it stands, it inflicts a very great hardship upon many people in Scotland who have to look up the "London Gazette," which they do not always find very easy, to discover notices relating to various properties. I, therefore, suggest that this Amendment be withdrawn, and, when the House resumes,
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    an Amendment on the lines which I have suggested could be brought in to meet the difficulty.
    Mr. ENTWISTLE: If it be the general desire that this should not be taken now, I do not want to press it. With regard to the point made by the hon. Member, I think that the object he has in view is served by the Amendment, because if the word "and" were inserted, publication would be necessary both Gazettes, which is exactly what the Amendment of the. Standing Order provides, and if it were not done in the form we have proposed, it would not apply to Northern Ireland, and the two purposes would not be served. After that explanation, I hope the hon. Gentleman will support the Motion.
    Mr. MACLEAN: I am sorry I must persist in opposing it, because if the words I suggest would do any injustice to Northern Ireland, it must be an easy matter to meet the point. Might I suggest. that these notices should be published both in the London and Edinburgh "Gazette" simultaneously; that the word "and" should be inserted to cover that difficulty; and that the words which the hon. Gentleman has already down be left in, to make the matter proper for Northern Ireland. I must take objection to the Motion as it Stands.
    Mr. DENNIS HERBERT: There is another point. I have not the Standing Orders before me at the moment, but when we come to the next Amendment, apparently, it would be possible, in the case of a Bill affecting Scotland, to publish it in the Belfast "Gazette," and for a Bill affecting Northern Ireland to publish it in the Edinburgh "Gazette." I suggest that the hon. Gentleman wants to put in the words "as the case may be," or "respectively" to make it clear.
    Mr. ENTWISTLE: In view of the remarks which have been made, and the views expressed. I think it will be in accordance with the sense of the House if I do not press this Motion, but leave it over to the next Parliament. I, therefore, beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    APPEALS
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the desire of pensions committees that the time limit on appeals in connection with final awards should not apply in any case where a statutory award was made before the 19th August, 1921, having regard to the fact that no individual notice was sent direct to the pensioner informing him of his right of appeal in these cases; and will he take steps to abolish the application of this time limit where no individual notice has been served upon the pensioner?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Mr. Roberts): I am aware that the suggestion referred to in the early part of the question has, among others, been made. I fear that the proposal made by my hon. Friend in the last part of the question would not be practicable. It has not been possible to issue individual notices to all persons affected by a statutory final award. for the reason that the Ministry have not necessarily any knowledge of men to whom compensation has ceased to be payable. The difficulty, however, to which he draws attention is one to which consideration is being given. At the same time, would point out that effective steps have been taken by me to deal with cases in which, as the result of medical treatment and observation, it is found that an award is, owing to a serious error of medical fact or judgment, found to have been erroneously declared final.
    Mr. THOMSON: In view of the hardship arising in many of these cases, can the right hon. Gentleman make some slight concession in order to meet the circumstances?
    Mr. ROBERTS: All cases of hardship are certainly considered, and the representation made shall he borne in mind.
    Mr. HOGGE: Will the Pensions Minister say why, so far as the Government is concerned—not this Government, but any Government—some alteration
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    should not be made whereby a man may have his appeal Irrespective of the time limit?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I am afraid I can add nothing to the answer which I have already given.

    OUT-PATIENT TREATMENT (ALLOWANCES)
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will revise the Regulations which prevent an ex-service man who is undergoing outpatient treatment from receiving any monetary allowance even when the disability for which he is being treated prevents him from following his normal occupation?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I fear that I am not in a position to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion. I may, however, state that at the present time there are on an average over 6,000 men undergoing outpatient treatment who are in receipt of full allowances under Article 0 of the Royal Warrant.

    CENTRAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that there has been no meeting of the Central Advisory Committee for over 12 months; and what steps he proposes to take to call this Committee together at an early date?
    Mr. ROBERTS: Yes, Sir. In the reorganisation of Advisory Councils, which I have succeeded in carrying through, one of my objects has been to secure a more effective representation of local opinion on the Central Advisory Committee, which in my judgment was formerly somewhat deficient in this respect. It will, I hope, now be possible to have a meeting of the re-constituted Advisory Committee at an early date.

    TUBERCULAR CASES (LIFE PENSIONS).
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Minister of Pensions if he has yet found it possible to take any steps in the direction of awarding life pensions to ex-service men suffering from tuberculosis as a result of their War service?
    Mr. ROBERTS: I have considered this matter with my medical advisers. I am advised that it would not be in the best interests of the men concerned to make

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    final awards of pension on any general scale in cases of tuberculosis, having regard to the fluctuating character of this disease. It is, however, my intention to secure that, as far as possible, awards for prolonged periods shall be made in all possible cases.

  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to take the necessary steps to revise the Old Age Pensions Regulations, so that the actual income received by old age pensioners may be taken into account when estimating their income and not a hypothetical sum calculated at the rate of 10 per cent. return on part of their savings?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Snowden): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by the Financial Secretary on the 31st July last in answer to a similar question.

  MOTOR-CAR LICENCES.
  Mr. BLACKasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many motor-car licences have been taken out. since 1st August; and how the number compares with that of last year?
  The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Gosling): I have been asked to answer this question. I am unable to give the hon. Member the information for which he asks, as the Returns for September have not yet been received from local authorities. I shall, however, be issuing very shortly a Return showing the licences issued during the three months ended 31st August, and will arrange for a copy of the Return to be sent to the hon. Member.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir HENRY CROFT: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these, under the new circumstances, are foreign cars?

  CAPITAL LEVY (POLAND).
  Sir FREDRIC WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has any information that the Polish Government
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  has abandoned the levy of capital which was originally introduced for the years 1924, 1925 and 1926?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: The answer is in the negative.

  EGYPT (OTTOMAN LOANS).
  Sir F. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer v hat is the position of the bondholders in the Egyptian Tribute?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ponsonby): The three loans in question are the guaranteed loan of 1855 and the loans of 1891 and 1894. The interest on the loan of 1855 is guaranteed jointly and severally by the. British and French Governments, and accordingly the bondholders will continue to receive payment of the interest due to them. The loans of 1891 and 1894 are not guaranteed As regards all three loans, His Majesty's Government regard the contentions of the Egyptian Government as entirely inadmissible, and are considering the whole matter in consultation with the representatives of financial interests in this country and with the other Governments concerned.
  Sir F. WISE: Will a report be made when these financial expects have considered the matter?
  Mr. PONSONBY: I will ascertain that. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me notice in the next Parliament, when I shall be able to answer the question.
  Mr. E. C. GRENFELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether. during the recent conversations between t hr Prime Minister and Zaghloul Pasha, the subject of the Ottoman loans secured on the Egyptian tribute was discussed, and, if so, whether the Prime Minister can give any information regarding them, for the benefit of the very large number of bondholders interested.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. J. Ramsay MacDonald): I am so sorry, but I have not received that question.
  Mr. GRENFELL: I sent it to Mr. Speaker.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I can say. without having had notice, that the sub-

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  ject was discussed. I brought it before Zaghloul Pasha in the shape of a memorandum, to which I have received a reply.

  LOAN TO GERMANY.
  Sir F. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if all the Allies will participate in the £40,000,000 loan to Germany?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I understand that negotiations are now being conducted by the German Government with this object. I have good hopes that the adequate participations will be secured.
  Mr. G. D. SOMERVILLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman state what proportion of the loan will be issued in this country?
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not at present know.

  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    MENTAL CASES.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the possibility of extending national responsibility for mental ex-service patients retrospectively, so as to cover the period from 1st October, 1922, to 31st March, 1924, during which national responsibility was disavowed?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. William Graham): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the Abertillery Division (Mr. G. Barker) on the 8th October.

    CIVIL SERVICE.
    Mr. GREAVES-LORDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Southborough Committee in their final Report have made no recommendations regarding the treatment of disabled men; and whether, in order to give private firms a lead in more satisfactorily supporting the King's Roll, he will give an undertaking that all competent ex-service men shall be granted security of tenure?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The Southborough Committee, as the hon. and learned Mem-
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    ber is no doubt aware, have recommended that 25 per cent. of the marks at the examination for ex-service men should be allotted on a departmental report as to the candidate's performance of the duties required of him in a temporary capacity, and in allotting these marks it is intended to give special consideration to cases of grave disability. With reference to the second part of the question, I would remind the hon. and learned Member that, while not more than 5 per cent. disabled ex-service men qualify an employer for inclusion on the King's Roll, disabled ex-service men in the Civil Service constituted as much as 14·54 per cent. of the total staff, male and female, permanent and temporary, on the 1st August, 1924.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Is it not a, fact that there are certain blind men employed as typists on a temporary basis? Is there any reason why that should be so?
    Mr. GRAHAM: That obviously refers to a particular Department, and I shall require notice to go into the details. I can, however, assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that every consideration is being given to disabled men under these proposals.
    Mr. HOGGEasked the Prime Minister whether in view of the fact that no opportunity has yet been afforded the House to discuss the Southborough Report he will at least suspend the forthcoming examination for ex-service men temporarily employed in the Civil Service until after the Election?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The arrangements for this limited competition are well in hand and I could not agree to suspend them. But it is not anticipated that the examination can take place before the beginning of next year arid, as my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal already indicated, it reply to a question from my hon. Friend on the 2nd October, the Government are anxious that the earliest possible opportunity should be provided for discussion of the Southborough Committee's Report.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: Will the hon. Gentleman consider the matter again, because of the great anxiety of which. many of these men, who have given efficient service—some of whom are over 40 years of age while others are over 50—and in view of the general feeling that it is not expedient to submit these

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    men to examination, will he reconsider suspending these examinations until we can fully discuss the matter?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I think there need be no anxiety regarding the present position. About 18,000 ex-service men have applied to sit for this examination. There is no chance of it being held before the early part of next year, and there will be before that time a full discussion of the Southborough Committee's Report in the House.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAIN: Is there any reason why the hon. Gentleman could not allow these men, who are suffering very considerable anxiety, at any rate to realise that in the next three weeks this matter is being suspended until the new House meets?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: Will the hon. Gentleman also considers these points—that the Deputy-Leader of the House promised a day for the discussion of this subject, and that these ex-service men were depending on a definite promise made by the Prime Minister that they should not be subjected to this examination?
    Captain Viscount CURZON: What does the hon. Gentleman mean exactly by the "early part of next year"— January, February, March, or when?
    Mr. GRAHAM: It is impossible at the moment to name an exact, or even an approximate, date for this examination, but, I have no doubt whatever that it will be held in the early part of next year. That is really the reply to the other part of the question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rusholme (Mr. Masterman), because for all practical purposes this is in suspense, and the examination will not be held until next year. Of course, there is a promise of a day for discussion in the House.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are 30,000 men concerned and, on his own figures, 18,000 of them have entered for the examination, and are at the present moment spending money for the purpose of preparing for the examination. The vacancies available are only 5,000 according to the Southborough Report, less than a third of that number, and in view of that fact and
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    of the desire of the House and the promise of the Ministry, which will be the promise of any Ministry, that there will be a discussion, does he riot think, in view of the services of these men, that it will be quite fair to say now that the whole thing is suspended until the House has decided?
    Mr. GRAHAM: I feel I could not add anything to the reply I have given. The truth is that the Southborough Committee was representative of all parties in the House, its Report was unanimous, and it has been adopted by the Government. There is nothing to be gained by suspending the arrangement. The position is protected by the discussion which will take place a good long time before any examination is held.

    HORSES EXPORTED.
    Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the present conditions relating to the export of horses for slaughter; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Buxton): I have carefully inquired both officially and privately into the conditions relating to the Export of horses. No worn-out horses an allowed to be exported from this country. All horses exported to the Continent are subjected to a uniformly rigid veterinary examination immediately before shipment. Officers of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals acknowledge that the standard of fitness imposed by the Ministry's port inspectors is a very high one, and that no horse which is unfit to travel and to work without suffering is passed for export.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the public that the Society for the prevention of Cruelty to Animals have said that they are satisfied no cruelty exists?
    Mr. BUXTON: The society is not in a position to state what happens abroad. The only practicable method to be adopted is that of setting a very high standard in regard to quality of the horses exported from this side. Our standard is an exceedingly high one.
    Mr. SAMUEL: But are the society satisfied that every precaution is taken on this side to see that no cruelty arises?
    Mr. BUXTON: Yes, Sir, decidedly so.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMES: Is there any objection, in view of the fact that there are excellent abattoirs in this country, why all these animals should not be slaughtered before export?
    Mr. BUXTON: This is a most important matter, but I do not see what we can do beyond setting an exceedingly high standard for export, which we do. If any higher standard can be suggested, it shall be carefully considered.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Do emigrants receive the same humane treatment as horses?

    UNEMPLOYMENT (GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS).
    Sir THOMAS INSKIPasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the steady rise in the number of unemployed persons and of the approach of winter, His Majesty's Government have any new proposals to lay before Parliament for increasing employment during the winter months?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Shaw): The proposals of the Govern-merit for providing employment, in view of the probable increase in unemployment with the approach of winter, were outlined in debate on the 30th July. Progress has since been made with the development of the measures then referred to. Many schemes of work approved for Government grant are in operation, and others will shortly be commenced. The Government would not hesitate to come to the House for authority to adopt new proposals should this be required. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a brief summary of the proposals now in hand or in active preparation.
    Sir T. INSKIP: Are we to assume that the Government have no new proposals other than the ideas that have already been outlined?
    Mr. SHAW: The right hon. and learned Gentleman may assume that if he likes. It was not in the answer.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Will the number of the unemployed be largely added to after to-day?
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: How many are now employed on these works?
    Mr. SHAW: I must have notice of that question.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Arising out of the supplementary question, may I ask the Minister of Labour if he is making any arrangements for dealing with the large amount of unemployment there will be in Members on the opposite side after the Election?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a purely hypothetical question.
    Mr. J. JONES: Will the Minister please inform us to what. unemployment exchange we shall have to approach to get our money?
    Mr. SHAW: So far as the first supplementary question is concerned, I am not aware that either on this side or the other side hon. Members are insured!
    Following is the summary referred to:
    The proposals of the Government for the coming winter include:—

    (1) Grants by the Ministry of Transport towards the cost of schemes for the construction and improvement of roads and bridges;

    (2) Grants by the Unemployment Grants Committee to Local Authorities and Public Utility Companies towards the cost of miscellaneous works of public utility.

    (3) Grants by the Ministry of Agriculture (and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland) for schemes of land drainage, etc.

    (4) A considerably extended programme of afforestation.

    (5) Experimental reclamation of land on the Wash.

    (6) Acceleration of contracts by Government Departments.

    (7) Further guarantees under the Trade Facilities Acts.

    (8) Assistance in the form of a subsidy to the sugar beet industry.

    Progress is being made with other schemes, such as the Severn Barrage, and steps toward considerable electricity

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    development are being discussed with the representatives of the industry.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Minister of Labour how many extra men are being employed as a result of the new schemes of work started by the Government since they have been in office?
    Mr. SHAW: I have looked into the existing returns, and find they do not enable a reliable figure to be given for the total number of men employed on relief work schemes. It is not practicable, without quite disproportionate expense, to obtain figures separately for old and new schemes, but I am considering whether it will be possible to obtain and issue periodically figures for men directly employed on Government assisted schemes.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many have been employed on any new schemes in connection with the Wash?

  HOUSING.

    SHREWSBURY (SHORTAGE).
    Mr. SUNLIGHTasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, as a consequence of the shortage of housing accommodation in the town of Shrewsbury, industrial workers in the town have to cycle, in the absence of other transport facilities, 15 miles or more, morning and night daily, to share cottages in the occupation of farm workers, who suffer terrible overcrowding; and will the Ministry press on the Corporation of Shrewsbury the urgency of building more houses in the town?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): My right hon. Friend is aware that Shrewsbury, in common with many other places, has a very serious need of additional housing accommodation. He thinks that the hon. Member may take it that the Council are fully alive to the necessities of the situation, and, in addition to the houses already contracted for, they are at present negotiating for the erection of a further instalment of houses.
    Mr. SUNLIGHTasked the Minister of Health how many houses have been built in the rural parishes of the Shrews-
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    bury Parliamentary division of Shropshire since the 1923 Housing Act came into force; whether the total number is below the average for similar divisions; and, if so, has the Ministry taken any steps to press the urgency of building more on the rural authorities?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The number of houses completed in tile rural districts of Atcham and Chirbury during the year ended the 31st March, 1924 (the latest period for which full figures are available), was 44. My right hon. Friend does not think that it is practicable to institute such a comparison as the hon. Member suggests. As the hon. Member may be aware, a circular was addressed to all local authorities in August last, explaining fully their powers and duties under the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: Have any houses been started under the Labour Government's programme of housing?

    BUILDING SCHEMES.
    Lieut.-Colonel JAMESasked the Minister of Health how many horses up to date are approved; how many are under construction; and how many have been completed under the lousing Act, 1923?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: 161,441 houses have been authorised to date under the Housing. Etc., Act, 1923. On the 1st September, the latest date for which information is available. 26,347 houses had been completed, and a further 50,524 were in course of construction.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it not a fact that a very much larger number of houses have been built hr private enterprise, in addition to these subsidised houses?
    Sir H. CROFT: Hoar many of these houses were built under the present Minister of Health, and, can photographs of them be circulated before the House disperses?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: A large number of the houses for which I have given the figures were built under the present Minister.
    Sir H. CROFT: Can the hon. Gentleman give the exact number? Is it two or four?
    Mr. WARDLAW MILNE: Can the Parliamentary Secretary give an answer to the last supplementary question, as to the number of houses built under the 1923 Act?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I can assure the hon. Member that the figures I have given are correct. The greater proportion of these houses actually built or under construction have been built this year under the regime of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.
    Mr. MASTERMAN: Could the hon. Gentleman inform me how many of these houses were built under the Chamberlain Act, and how many under the Wheatley Act?
    Mr. GREENWOOD: All these houses have been built under the Chamberlain Act during the time my right hon. Friend has been in office.
    Sir H. CROFT: Can the hon. Gentleman state, then, if I am correct in saying that, when he said that these houses were built under the present regime, he meant that it was under the Conservative Act of the last Parliament?
    Mr. J. JONES: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how many of these houses were built to be sold, and not to let?
    Mr. LUMLEYasked the Minister of Health if he will consider the advisability of requesting the local authorities to allow builders who are erecting houses under the 1923 Act to be allowed the full period mentioned in the Act, October, 1925, instead of any shortened period.
    Mr. WHEATLEY: I consider it desirable in administering the Housing Acts of 1923 and 1924, that local authorities should only undertake to give subsidy in respect of houses likely to be completed within a reasonable time. It is always open to a builder who finds he is unable, owing to causes beyond his control, to comply with such a condition, to make an application for an extension of time, and I have no doubt that local authorities would act reasonably in dealing with such an application.

    EPSOM RURAL DISTRICT (SCHEME ISAPPROVED).
    Sir ROWLAND BLADESasked the Minister of Health why the scheme of the Epsom Rural District Council to
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    erect 20 houses at Banstead and 20 at Burgh Heath was disapproved by his Ministry, seeing that even this scheme will only partially meet the crying need for houses, that many families are living in cottages condemned as unfit for habitation, and that at least 72 cottages are inhabited by two or more families.
    Mr. WHEATLEY: The tender prices obtained by the District Council were so high, having regard to the accommodation to be provided in the houses, that I did not feel justified in sanctioning the Council's proposal. The hon. Member will appreciate that it is vital to the success of- the housing scheme that prices should be kept at a reasonable level. If snore favourable prices can be obtained by the Council, I shall, of course, be very glad to consider them.

    POST ENGINEERS OFFICE,BRISTOL.
    Mr. AYLESasked the postmaster General whether he is aware of the conditions existing at the engineer's office, 238, your road, Bristol, which is a poor class warehouse, and not designed for an office at all; that the premises are over crowded the ventilation bad and the heating unsatisfactory has been abnormal during the past two winters; and seeing that the offices are in a dirty state and that there has been a request from the staff for better accommodation and in view of the better of the matter, will he investigate the disadvantages from which the staff suffer with a view to remedial action?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hartshorn):
    I am aware that this office is now overcrowded and otherwise unsatisfactory, and arrangement are being made for the early transfer of the staff to other more suitable premises.

  INDIA

    WAZIRISTAN OPERATIONS.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD - BURYasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the number of British and Indian casualties since 1st January, 1924, at Razmak, in Waziri-stan; whether he is aware that the troops only receive now ordinary pay and peace

    723
    rations and ration allowance, though to all intents on active service; whether he is aware that the tents are unserviceable and leaky, and that numerous complaints have been received; and will he restore the active service pay which has formerly been customary to those quartered on the North-West Frontier?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Richards): The casualties in the force at Razmak for the period from 1st January to the 31st August, 1924, were as follow:

    (1)

    Indian Army:

    Killed in action and died of wounds

    6

    Wounded

    27

    (2)

    British Army:

    Killed in action and died of wounds

    2

    It is the case that since 1st April of this year field service concessions have been withdrawn from the troops serving at Razmak. As I informed the hon. and gallant Member for Melton (Sir C. Yate) yesterday, however, an enquiry has been addressed to the Government of India whether any of these concessions should be restored, and my Noble Friend will consider the matter on receipt of their reply. I have no information to lead me to suppose that the tents are unserviceable or that numerous complaints have been received. I may perhaps inform the hon. and gallant Member that at Razmak a large proportion of the troops are now quartered in comfortable stone-built barracks.
    Lieut.-Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is no bazaar whatever for the troops there, that the hospital accommodation is totally inadequate, and, in view of all these casualties, can he not see that the troops are put back under active service conditions approximating to the ordinary cantonment lines?
    Mr. RICHARDS: I have just said that my information is otherwise. We have made representations to the Government of India.

    MOSLEMS AND HINDUS, PUNJAB.
    Colonel Sir CHARLES YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to
    724
    the virulence of the vernacular papers in the Punjab which has been instrumental in increasing the communal tension between Muslims and Hindus that has led to so many outbreaks and deaths of late at Delhi, Kohat, and elsewhere; and whether the Secretary of State will now consider the question of the responsibility imposed upon the Government of India by the repeal of the Press Act?
    Mr. RICHARDS: Some inter-communal animosity has been exhibited in the Press of the Punjab which is, perhaps, rather the result than the cause of the ill-feeling between Moslems and Hindus. It has not been unchecked, and within the four months ending with August there have been nine prosecutions of the persons responsible for articles in newspapers or pamphlets intended, in the words of the law,
    "to promote feelings of enmity or hatred between different classes of His Majesty's subjects."
    As to the Press Act, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the replies given to his questions on the 7th and 14th April last.
    Mr. D. HERBERT: Will the Under-Secretary say whether any of these prosecutions have been withdrawn?
    Sir C. YATE: Can the hon. Gentleman say if any convictions have been obtained?
    Mr. RICHARDS: Yes.

    DEPRESSED CLASSES
    Sir C. YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State fur India whether his attention has been called to the address presented to the Governor of the Central Provinces by the Depressed Classes' Association, calling attention to the incessant demand put forward by the higher castes for immediate Swaraj for India and pointing out the danger that if the grant of complete Swaraj be unduly accelerated the last hopes of throwing off the burden of caste domination will be finally extinguished, and urging an investigation into the conditions of the submerged classes of India; and if he can state what steps are being taken by the committee now sitting in India on the working of the Government of India Act of 1919 to give full consideration to the appeal of these depressed classes for just and fair treatment at the hands of the higher classes?
    Mr. RICHARDS: I have not seen the particular address referred to, but am aware that views of a similar kind have been expressed in other resolutions and addresses of representatives of the depressed classes. I am not aware whether the Committee of Inquiry referred to in the question has regarded the consideration of such appeals as falling within the scope of the questions referred to them.

    MR. JUSTICE P. R. DAS.
    Sir C. YATEasked the Prime Minister if he has received any communication from Mr. Justice P. R. Das, of the Patna High Court, acting on behalf of his brother, Mr. C. R. Das, the leader of the Swaraj party; and whether he can give any information to the House as to the purport of this communication?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have received no direct communication from Mr. Das, though I understand he wished to see me. I must protect Mr. Das, however, against the insinuation that he has been acting on behalf of his brother.

    FLOODS, PUNJAB.
    Mr. WARDLAW MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will give the House the latest information he has regarding the disastrous floods in the Punjab; what arrangements have been made for relief of those affected, and what loss of life and property has been caused by the overflow of the river Jumna or in other ways?
    Mr. RICHARDS: My Noble Friend has no information beyond what has appeared in the Press.

    INTER-COMMUNAL DISTURBANCES.
    Mr. MILNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether serious riots between Hindus and Mahommedans have broken out at Allahabad; how many people have been killed or injured; whether British and Indian troops were employed to restore order, and whether any other outbreaks in other parts of the country have occurred?
    Mr. RICHARDS: I have not yet received any official report regarding the riots at Allahabad which to-day's Press messages from India, describe. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a note
    726
    on inter-communal disturbances which have occurred recently at a few places in India.
    Mr. MILNE: Cannot the hon. Gentleman undertake to get the information? Surely it is very important information for this House to have. It seems to me rather strange that he should have none to give beyond his very sketchy reply.
    Mr. RICHARDS: I suggest that the hon. Member should wait for the Report which I am circulating.
    Following is the Note promised:

    STATEMENT REGARDING THE DISTURBANCES DURING AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER, 1924, BETWEEN HINDUS AND MOSLEMS IN INDIA.
    The most important day of the Festival of the Muharram was the 12th August. The processions connected with the ceremony was carried out without any important breach of the peace throughout British India. But on the previous day there occurred at Gulbarga in the Nizam's dominions a serious collision between the two communities. On the 23rd August there was a less important incident of the same kind in Bhagalpur in Bihar which was stopped by the police after 12 persons had been injured. On the 30th August a Hindu procession was attacked with stones by Moslems in Nagpur, in the Central Provinces, and there was some looting, but order was quickly restored. Eleven persons were injured, of whom one died in the hospital.
    There was a riot between Hindus and Moslems on the 9th September at Kanod, a small town in the State of Indore, caused by music played by a Hindu procession in front of a mosque. Eighteen Hindus were reported to be injured.
    On the 9th and 10th September, serious disturbances occurred in Kohat in the North West Frontier Province. They originated in the publication of a scurrilous anti-Moslem pamphlet. The actual violence commenced with shots fired in panic by Hindu residents of the city. The disorder was accompanied with incendiarism and looting, and very large material damage was caused before order was restored with the help of the troops. Almost the whole of the Hindu popula-

    727
    tion of the city (though not of the cantonment) left the place for Rawalpindi. The casualties ascertained are as follows—police, 6 injured; Hindus, 20 killed, 24 seriously injured, 62 slightly injured, 16 missing, of whom it is believed 9 are unidentified bodies included among the 20 killed; Mohammedans, 11 killed, 6 seriously injured, 17 slightly wounded. There have been large recoveries effected of the loot carried off by neighbouring villagers, and on the 19th September it was reported that the city was now quiet. A full report by the Chief Commissioner of the Province has been called for by the Government of India.
    On the 12th September, fighting between the two communities broke out in Lucknow City as a result of protracted bickering. The immediate occasion was a clash between hours of worship in one locality. Here also the troops were called in to patrol, but there was no fighting and the casualties were not numerous, only four deaths and thirty cases of injury having been reported.
    On the 22nd September similar fighting began at Shajahanpur in the United Provinces. Quiet was restored next day, but rioting occurred again on the. 24th, and military assistance was called in from Bareilly. The troops were sufficient to maintain order and to disperse gatherings of villagers who attempted to enter the city. The total casualties reported here up to the 25th September were six killed and 104 wounded. Full reports regarding these riots in the United Provinces are expected by mail.

    HONDURAS (MURDER OF BRITISH SUBJECT).
    Lieut.-Commander FLETCHERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can communicate any information relative to the reported killing of Charles Edward Rimmer, a British subject, at Puerto Castilla, Honduras, on the 21st August, 1924?
    Mr. PONSONBY: According to a report from the British Consul at Trujillo, Mr. Edward Rimmer, of Liverpool, was murdered by a labourer on the 21st August. The Consul stated that the local authorities were taking measures for the capture of the murderer.

    COURTS OF SUMMARY JURISDICTION (PROCEDURE).
    Lieut. - Commander FLETCHERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce a measure to provide that in courts of summary jurisdiction the magistrate, or the magistrate's clerk, shall at the beginning of the proceedings explain to the accused, in ordinary language, the offence with which he is charged and the method of procedure of the court?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Rhys Davies): My right hon. Friend would be glad if the procedure in courts of summary jurisdiction could be simplified, but he cannot promise immediate legislation to the effect suggested in the question.

    CHINA.
    Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Member for North Bristol (Mr. Ayles) wish to put his Private Notice question about China?
    Mr. AYLES: The notice which I sent to you, Sir, of a question with regard to China was with a view to its being placed on the Order Paper in the ordinary way, and not to its being put by Private Notice.

    RUSSIA (ANGLO-SOVIET TREATY).
    Major KINDERSLEYasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a statement in the Press that, when the AngloRussian Conference had practically broken down, the Russian Delegation announced that unless settlement was reached they would have some public disclosures to make which would be detrimental to the British Socialist Party in general, and some of its leaders in particular, in connection with certain intrigues and dealings with Moscow, an exposure of which would possibly involve the resignation of several members of the British Government, and that, in consequence, the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs was instructed to come to an agreement of some kind with the Russian Delegation forthwith; whether there was anything which occurred in the course of the negotiations to justify the above serious allegations; and whether he is prepared

    729
    to lay Papers giving an account of the concluding stages of the Russian Agreement?
    Mr. PONSONBY: I have been asked to reply. Yes, Sir; my attention has been called to the statement referred to by the hon. and gallant Member. It emanated originally from an article appearing in a newspaper—"Le Temps du Soir"—pubished in Paris by Russian Whites, and has been copied in several organs of the Continental Press. This article gives what purports to be the official explanation of why the agreement was signed by His Majesty's Government. I will give a verbatim translation of the facts as related:
    "Through the intermediary of a young woman who had recently gone to Russia ostensibly as an artiste, a large number of exceedingly beautiful Russian jewels had reached England. These jewels, emeralds, diamonds, precious stones, pearls whose beauty and weight were quite remarkable, were sent to six members of Mr. MacDonald's Cabinet, who, all six of them, are part of the managing committee of the 'Daily Herald.' These remarkable consignments were delivered in the form of chocolate boxes, and each jewel was concealed inside a chocolate. Further, care had been taken to warn the recipients to take no risks with their teeth. And not one of the hon. Gentlemen refused the present returning it to the sender! Therefore, when Moscow said, Sign, or we shall give the names of your six comrades who received and kept our chocolates,' what could MacDonald do but sign!"
    This story, like many others which have appeared with regard to these negotiations, needs no comment.
    Lieut.- Commander KENWORTHY rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think this question is hardly a serious matter.
    Major KINDERSLEY rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Does the hon. and gallant Member think it quite dignified to pursue the matter?
    Major KINDERSLEY: I desire to say that the quotation which I sent to the Prime Minister from a newspaper bears no resemblance whatever to what the hon. Gentleman has quoted from a Paris paper.
    Lieut.- Commander KENWORTHY: I do not want to treat this matter lightly at all, but may I not ask my hon. Friend, arising out of this matter, whether this
    730
    story is not very typical of many others which have been put about in connection with the signing of this agreement?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think it suggests that Members should be rather careful about accepting what they see in the Press.

    MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT(RAILWAY VOUCHERS).
    Mr. BARNESasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he can state what arrangements have been made in regard to the use by Members of their railway vouchers, in the event of the Dissolution of Parliament?
    Mr. GRAHAM: The following arrangements have been made, and I would ask hon. Members to co-operate as closely as possible with the authorities of the House in securing their observance

    1. A Member may, if necessary, use one voucher for the single journey to his constituency immediately after the Dissolution. (Where, of course, a Member holds the return half of a ticket entitling him to return to his constituency, the use of a further voucher will not be necessary.)

    2. A Member will retain possession of his current book of vouchers, and will be at liberty to commence using them, as before, immediately on re-election.

    3. A Member will not use any vouchers during the period between the use of the special voucher under No. 1 above and his re-election.

    4. A Member defeated at the poll will return his book of vouchers immediately after the declaration of the poll.

    5. A Member in possession of a book of vouchers, and not seeking reelection, may retain one voucher for use as under I above, and will return the remainder of his hook to the Fees Office.

    6. A Member will be asked to reimburse the amount of any fares covered by vouchers the use of which is not in accordance with the above provisions.

DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT.
  GENERAL ELECTION, 29th OCTOBER.

    PRIME MINISTER'S ANNOUNCE MENT.
    Mr. BALDWIN: May I ask the Prime Minister if he has any statement to make to. the House?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I regret that the action taken by the two Opposition parties yesterday rendered an Election inevitable. I, therefore, have had an audience with His Majesty this morning, and asked for a dissolution. His Majesty empowers me to announce that he has consented.
    In considering further arrangements, I felt that I should be meeting the wishes of all parties in the House if I did my best to avoid clashing with the municipal elections. The difficulty was whether it would be better to hang the Election over until the municipal elections had been cleared out of the way, or whether it would not be better, and far more convenient, to try to get the General Election over before the municipal elections.
    The Government were very anxious to reduce the inconvenience of the Election to a minimum. By a careful study of the position, we have found that it will be possible to have the Election over before the municipal elections take place. The proposal, therefore, is that this afternoon this House will be prorogued, and the Election will take place forthwith. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] The Dissolution to-night will mean that nominations can he made on Saturday, the 18th October. and we can take the Election on Wednesday, the 29th October.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: May T. ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in connection with the dates he has just announced, the position has been made clear that this House will not dissolve until the Irish Free State Bill has been passed?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes. In accordance with the pledge I gave the
    732
    other day, we have seen that the Irish Free State (Confirmation of Agreement) Bill is safe. I understand that another place has made no alteration, and that there is no difficulty. Had it not been for that, the dates that I have just announced could not have been arranged. It is on the supposition that the Irish Bill will receive the Royal Assent this afternoon, and that other formal business will be transacted immediately afterwards.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir EDWARD GRIGG: May I ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what date was contemplated for the Imperial Conference, to which, I understand, he has invited representatives of the Dominions, and what arrangements be is making about it in view of the Prime Minister's announcement?
    Mr. THOMAS: I have not had notice of this question, and can only say that nothing that happened last night should, in our opinion, interfere. with the Government going on with their proposal.
    Captain ELLIOT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will he possible to consider at that conference the Geneva Protocol?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is a Foreign Office affair, and it must be the subject of representations to the Dominion Government.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Can the Prime Minister say whether it will be necessary for the new House of Commons to meet this year, in order to pass the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes. We have also taken that into account. There are two small Bills, which are very important, that must be passed this year, unless very great public inconvenience is to be caused. One is the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and the other the Property Bill—a Bill dealing with the law relating to property.
    Mr. D. HERBERT: A. Bill to postpone the Law of Property Act.
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is a Bill to postpone something or other. I am informed that that Bill must be passed, Unless a great deal of public inconvenience is to be caused. I understand that any

    733
    time up to the 31st December will do for that Bill. The intention is that the House of Commons shall meet reasonably soon after the Election.
    Mr. HODGE: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Election will take place on the 29th October, Parliamentary sanction is required, or, if not, have the Cabinet made any arrangement, in regard to the continuance of the British Empire Exhibition and any Government guarantee?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is at present in negotiation with the Dominions. I believe it can be settled without Parliamentary sanction. I had it in my mind when I said that we would meet conveniently after the Election, say, just a week or two later, in order to give Members an opportunity of having a little rest before they resume their duties.
    Mr. STEPHEN: May I ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Tory Magistrates' Committee in Glasgow have shut the halls in Glasgow against Labour Members, as the first part of their campaign? [HON. MEMBERS: "Sundays!"]
    The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Adamson): My attention has been drawn to the matter, and I am inquiring into it.
    Mr. COMYNS-CARR: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in regard to the dates which have been taken carefully into consideration, he is aware that the Autumn Register does not come into force, and is not ordinarily printed and available for use until the 15th October; and, having regard to that fact, can any steps be taken by the Government to expedite the publication of the Registers, so that they may be available for the use of candidates in reasonable time for the Election?
    The PRIME MINISTER: My information is not quite in accordance with what has just been stated by my hon. Friend. My information is that, while the Register comes into operation on the 15th October, it is circulated on the.8th October. As a matter of fact, the Registers ought to have been delivered yesterday. That was one of the things which we took into account, to see whether the dates would be convenient.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in all up-to-date constituencies the Registers are ready now?
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it possible to give an approximate date when Parliament will re-assemble after the Election?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think that will be stated in the Proclamation—somewhere about the 18th or 20th November.

  EDUCATION (No. 2) BILL,
  "to enable students to travel to places of education free of charge," presented by Mr. LIVINGSTONE; supported by Captain Wedgwood Penn, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Falconer, Mr. Comyns-Carr, Mr. Thomas O'Connor, Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy, Sir Charles Starmer, Mr. Hogge, Mr. Raffan, Mr. Foot and Mr. Millar; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 258.]
  Mr. SPEAKER: A Royal Commission has been appointed for six o'clock to-day. I propose, unless a Message come from the other House at an earlier time, to leave the Chair until that hour. In any event, I will cause the bells to be rung five minutes before I resume the Chair.
  Sitting suspended at Ten Minutes before Four of the Clock.

PROROGATION.

  HIS MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the High Com-
  748
  missioners, delivered His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
  My relations with Foreign Powers continue to be of a friendly nature.
  The acceptance of the Dawes Report by the Powers concerned was confirmed by the Conference held in London in July and August, when practical measures required in order to allow of the recommendations being put into force were unanimously approved. This happy result is due to the broadminded spirit of co-operation with which the very difficult problems involved were approached by the Powers concerned. I believe that this settlement will contribute largely to the restoration of international commerce, on which the material prosperity of this country so largely depends.
  Following the close understanding reached between the British awl French Delegations at Genece, the fifth Assembly of the League of Nations by formulating proposals for dealing with the problem of general arbitration and security has made an important advance on the road to the reduction of armaments. The issue of its discussions has been embodied in a protocol which will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible, and which it is hoped will lead to the first practical measures for lightening the heavy burdens under which the nations are suffering.
  My Government have renewed diplomatic relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and have concluded with the Government of the Union the two Treaties which have been laid before you. These Treaties have for their object the re-establishment of political and commercial ties between Great Britain and Russia as a necessary element in the general pacification and economic reconstruction of Europe.
  Under the terms of the Treaty the question of the frontier between Turkey

  749
  and Iraq has been, referred to the Council of the League of Nations, who have decided to appoint a special Commission to report to them on the matter. Pending a final settlement both parties hare undertaken to maintain the status quo on the frontier.
  I regret that, as explained in a Paper recently laid before you, the informal discussions with the Prime Minister of Egypt did not lead to negotiations which might have resulted in the conclusion of a satisfactory agreement. In the absence of such agreement the position of my Country in relation to Egypt will continue to be governed by the policy adopted when, the Protectorate was withdrawn.
  Steps have been taken by My Ministers in conjunction with the Governments of My Dominions for the formation of a committee to devise means for the more efficient marketing in this country of various articles of food.
  Members of the House of Commons,
  I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
  Though there are, I am glad to say, signs of distinct improvement in some of the principal industries and in certain branches of trade and commerce, severe depression continues. My Ministers have been actively engaged in the development of a constructive policy with, a view to stimulating industry and encouraging trade as the only means of dealing fundamentally with the unemployment from which a large proportion of our fellow-citizens are still suffering. Meanwhile, the measures taken by My Ministers for the provision of increased and continuous unemployment benefit have not only lightened the burden upon the ratepayers in the most necessitous areas, but have also alleviated the sufferings
  750
  of the innocent victims of industrial depression.
  The measures taken by My Ministers, with the support of Parliament, to enable Local Authorities and the building industry to engage in a fifteen years' uninterrupted building programme will, I hope, afford an effective remedy for the serious overcrowding which continues to be a source of grievous harm to the character and physique of many hundreds of thousands of My people.
  Steps have also been taken by My Government to assist agriculture by loans to Farmers' Co-operative Societies and by increasing grants-in-aid of agricultural education and research. An Act has also been passed to regulate the wages of agricultural labourers in England and Wales.
  The taking of a new Census of Production, together with various other inquiries which have been set on foot, will, I hope, afford valuable indications of the directions in which the industrial and commercial organisation of the country can be improved.
  The advance of educational development has been freed from the restrictions recently imposed upon it and the lines for further progress have been laid down towards a more universal system of secondary education.
  In bidding you farewell, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.
  Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read in the House of Lords.
  After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
  MY LORDS AND MEMBERS,— By virtue of His Majesty's Commission under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to His Majesty's Commands, Prorogue this Parliament to Friday, the thirty-first day of

  751
  October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued until Friday, the thirty-first day of October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four.
  End of the First Session (opened Tuesday, 8th January, 1924) of the Thirty-third Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the Fifteenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George the Fifth.

TRANSPORT.
  WINCHELSEA-RYE ROAD.
  WINCHELSEA-RYE ROAD.
  ROAD PASSENGER VEHICLES.
  ROAD PASSENGER VEHICLES.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS(W. E. MELTON).
  NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS(W. E. MELTON).
  APPEALS.
  APPEALS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  DISABILITY PENSIONS.
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS.
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS.
INDIA.
  LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AND PROVINCIAL COUNCILS.
  LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AND PROVINCIAL COUNCILS.
  PROPAGANDA AND AGITATION.
  PROPAGANDA AND AGITATION.
  NEWSPAPER ARTICLE (PROSECUTION)
  NEWSPAPER ARTICLE (PROSECUTION)
  AFFORESTATION, SALOP.
  AFFORESTATION, SALOP.
HOUSING.
  BUILDING TRADE (APPRENTICES).
  BUILDING TRADE (APPRENTICES).
  Two-ROOM ACCOMMODATION.
  Two-ROOM ACCOMMODATION.
  POOR LAW RELIEF (LOANS).
  POOR LAW RELIEF (LOANS).
  ANTI-SOVIET FORCES (BRITISH ASSISTANCE).
  ANTI-SOVIET FORCES (BRITISH ASSISTANCE).
  BRISTOL PRISON (TENDER).
  BRISTOL PRISON (TENDER).
  FOREIGN COUNTRIES (BRITISH LOANS).
  FOREIGN COUNTRIES (BRITISH LOANS).
POST OFFICE.
  MOUNT PLEASANT BUILDINGS.
  MOUNT PLEASANT BUILDINGS.
  DELIVERIES, BATLEY.
  DELIVERIES, BATLEY.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  STATISTICS
  STATISTICS
  BENEFIT.
  BENEFIT.
  GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS.
  GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE BUILDINGS.
  EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE BUILDINGS.
  COST OF LIVING.
  COST OF LIVING.
  SOCIAL HYGIENE (BRITISH COLONIES IN FAR EAST).
  SOCIAL HYGIENE (BRITISH COLONIES IN FAR EAST).
  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  ROYAL ASSENT.
  ROYAL ASSENT.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT.
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, I desire to ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack whether, in view of the circumstances which passed in another place yesterday evening, he is prepared to make to your Lordships' House an announcement as to the intentions of His Majesty's Government.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, the Prime Minister had an audience of the King this morning, and the Sovereign was graciously pleased to direct an immediate Dissolution of Parliament on the advice of the Prime Minister. The Writs will be issued to-night, and, according do the ordinary law, the General Election should be over by the 29th of this month. Then some days must elapse before the proceedings are complete, because the new Parliament has to be sworn. The result of the Election in Orkney and Shetland will come later perhaps, but the Election will be substantially over by the date I have mentioned. Then we shall be in a position to meet Parliament and see what steps shall be taken.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount what is the explanation—I may say the justification—for this extreme haste with the Election? To-day is the 9th of October and the Election, we are told, is going to be over within twenty days. What is the reason for that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The reason for it is that there is nothing more disturbing to the country than a prolonged and protracted General Election, and we are assured that it is the desire of the commercial community and of the general community to get rid of the Election, which is not of our creation, as soon as possible.

IRISH FREE STATE (CONFIRMATION OF AGREEMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Arnold.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Short title and commencement.
2.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Irish Free State (Confirmation of Agreement) Act, 1924.
(2) Tills Act shall come into operation on the date on which the said Agreement is confirmed by Act of the Parliament of the Irish Free State, or, if such an Act is passed before the passing of this Act, shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.
LORD CARSONmoved to leave out all words in subsection (2) after "confirmed by," and to insert "Acts of the Parliaments of the Irish Free State and of Northern Ireland respectively or if such Acts are passed before the passing of this Act shall come into operation on the passing of this Act." The noble and learned Lord said: In the course of the speech which I made yesterday on the Second Reading of this Bill I intimated that I should put down an Amendment which is the Amendment now on the Paper and, having regard to the patience with which your Lordships listened to me yesterday, I shall not find it necessary to detain you at any great length in explaining the position. The Amendment is simply this. This is a Bill that proposes to enable certain Commissioners to interfere with the territory (I use a neutral word) that was granted to the Parliament of Northern Ireland by the Act of 1920, and the Bill very properly provides that the measure is not to become law until it has been confirmed by the Parliament of the Irish Free State. That, of course, is quite correct, because there has also been granted to them a Parliament and this Parliament ought not to interfere with what they do without their consent.
But what I cannot understand is why this Parliament should assume the right

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to go behind the backs of the people of Northern Ireland and, without any consultation or without even giving an intimation of what was going on, should enter into an Agreement which may have the most disastrous consequences in the territory that has been entrusted to the care of the Parliament of Northern Ireland—a Parliament elected on a popular franchise. Therefore, what you are doing is interfering with the democracy of Northern Ireland and trying to take away—or probably to take away—from them some of their territory. The original Treaty, as it was mis-called, was entered into behind the backs of Northern Ireland. Then, when Northern Ireland, within the terms of the Treaty, refused to appoint a Commissioner under the Act, it being a purely voluntary Act, this Bill was brought in as a Coercion Bill to compel Northern Ireland to have a representative upon the Commission. It is a Coercion Bill in the fullest sense. This Agreement is made, also without the slightest intimation to Ulster, without Ulster ever being consulted, and the Bill is brought in. It is for that reason that I move this Amendment, providing that they should be put in the same position as the Irish Free State, and that if this Act has to be confirmed by the Parliament of the Irish Free State it should also be confirmed by the Parliament of Northern Ireland, which this Legislature has set up.
I cannot imagine anything fairer, nor can I imagine anything more detrimental to these local Parliaments than that the Government of this country should, behind their backs, without consultation with them, enter into arrangements which affect their Constitution from top to bottom. This Bill, as I tried to show yesterday, is, on one construction at all events of the terms of Article 12, not merely a Bill that affects the boundary. It must, necessarily and consequentially, affect the contribution. It must also, necessarily and consequentially, affect the representation in the Imperial Parliament and, as I hope I demonstrated to your Lordships yesterday, it knocks the bottom out of the Act of 1920. It is impossible to suppose that, once you have altered their boundary and taken their territory, the same provisions should prevail either
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with regard to the contribution or the representation in the Imperial Parliament.
I placed this Amendment on the Paper to make my most solemn protest against this interference by the Imperial Parliament with the Parliament which they set up, because it will be utterly impossible for any Parliament, or any body of Ministers, to govern a community if at any moment it is open to the Imperial Parliament to go behind their backs and make fundamental changes in the Constitution they administer, or in the jurisdiction they have over certain portions of the country. Such a thing would be intolerable and no Prime Minister could accept office in such circumstances. You have made the Parliament, for good or bad. Heaven knows that we never wanted the Parliament in Ulster, but you made it and you asked the democracy there to elect that Parliament. You asked that Parliament to appoint Ministers responsible to it and then, behind their backs, you claim the right to interfere with the jurisdiction of that Parliament. That is an intolerable position and one which cannot continue.
I read yesterday with grave anxiety a speech of the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. Sir James Craig is not a man who speaks without weighing his words. You gave him an almost impossible task in setting up the new organisation of Government that was necessary at a time when the English Government had brought Ireland into a state of anarchy which required all the courage of a clear headed and determined man to put an end to so far as his own district was concerned. I was not surprised, though I was greatly grieved, when I saw that Sir James Craig—one of the calmest and at the same time one of the most determined of men that I ever come across, who loves Ulster more than any man I ever met and has risked his own life and health in connection with what the Imperial Government has put upon him, very often thwarting him in his efforts, but still anxious to go on in the interests of his own Province and of this country and the Empire—had said that if an attempt was to be made behind the back of Ulster to filch away territory which he undertook to govern at your request he would feel it his duty to resign the office of Prime Minister. I can conceive no situation more terrible than would be

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created in the North of Ireland in those circumstances. His Government would go with him, and you would get no Government to take its place. He said that he would feel it his duty, and I think he was right, to place himself at the head of the people who had trusted him to keep for them that which was the settlement of 1920.
It is an impossible and an intolerable position. If that comes about, I hope the imagination of members of the House of Lords, at all events, is sufficient for them to .see what it means when a Parliament which this Legislature has established comes into conflict with the Parliament that created it because of acts done behind its back which result in the filching away of various districts with which it has been entrusted. How can any man frame a policy? How could my man govern his people, or secure confidence in his Government at all, if such a thing is allowed to go on? I asked yesterday for precedents for treating any Parliament in such a way. The only Act upon the subject that I know is the Colonial Boundaries Act, which only operates in the scheduled districts, but never without the consent of the part of the Colony that is to be affected. This is a new departure, and if you have in your minds the determination to coerce the Parliament which you set up you are thereby coercing the democracy which elects that Parliament and the Ministers whom it trusts. I do not believe that is a matter which can be allowed to exist for one moment without creating between the Parliaments concerned friction which must end in disaster.
I am not going to pursue the subject further. I read lately some very able arguments put forward by Professor Morgan in a series of articles in one of the newspapers. He went into the whole subject and what he said was the more worthy of consideration because he is not on our side. He is a well known Liberal who contributed a great deal to the literature of the old Home Rule problem. He proved up to the hilt that nothing could be more unfortunate than intern ference by the Imperial Parliament with the jurisdiction conferred under such an Act as the Act of 1920, without the consent of the Parliament exercising that jurisdiction. The only way in which these things can be done is by consent, and the
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policy of coercion that you are entering upon to-day will fail just as certainly as your Lordships are sitting here. Having put a people in the position they occupy, you cannot coerce them. It is as a way out, therefore, that I propose this most reasonable Amendment, which provides that the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall be put in the same position as the Parliament of the Free State and that before this Act comes into force the Parliament of Northern Ireland, which the Imperial Parliament has set up, shall be consulted and shall give its verdict I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, lines 2 to 5, leave out from ("by") in line 2 to end of subsection and insert the said new words.—(Lord Carson.)
THE EARL OF MAYO: Yesterday, an Amendment was introduced into the Motion for Second Reading by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. Unfortunately, I chose the wrong moment at which to oppose that Amendment and before I deal with the Amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord I want to say something about the other.
NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
THE EARL OF MAYO: Your Lordships have called me to order and I will cut my observations somewhat shorter than I intended them to be. The noble Marquess's Amendment was carried in a Division in which thirty-eight of your Lordships who did not approve of it voted against it. I come now to Lord Carson's Amendment. That Amendment is one which simply wrecks this Bill. I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord is going to a Division, but if ho does I shall vote against the Amendment, and I think many others will do the same. I do not suppose the noble and learned Lord really means to wreck the Bill, but these phantom Amendments that are placed before us seem to me to lead to nothing at all. I know as well as possible, and the noble and learned Lord knows, that this Amendment has not the slightest chance of passing your Lordships' House. Your Lordships have given a Second Reading to this Bill, and an Amendment put forward now in Committee stage to wreck the Bill goes against everything that I have known in the course of my experience in this House.

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What is the object of the noble and learned Lord in doing this? Is it for the sake of making a speech about the whole attitude of the Prime Minister of Ulster and himself in regard to this question, or is it only a political move on his part to suit his following in Ulster? I cannot conceive anything more mischievous than this when we are trying, both in the North and in the South, to keep order on both sides of the boundary. I may say for my part, and I am sure the noble Marquess who sits below me (the Marquess of Londonderry) will agree with me, that we are determined in that country that there should be order now, and if there is not order the Government of Northern Ireland will see to it on their side and I am sure the Government of Southern Ireland will also see to it on their part. I cannot see the object of these Amendments. They pass like a vision before one, meaning nothing, and doing nothing. I say without the slightest hesitation that this Amendment, if carried, would have a mischievous effect in the country in which I live. Having said that, I do not think I need trouble your Lordships very much longer, though I feel very strongly indeed upon this matter. I thought it part of my duty as a Senator of the Southern Parliament to say what I have said in this House.
Some may not agree with me, but that does not affect me in the least, nor will it affect us on the other side of the water. It is beating the air to put forward Amendments like this. The Government will remain in Office till the Election, the Commission will be appointed, and the Bill will pass. I believe there is to be a Royal Commission at six o'clock for the Royal Assent to be signified to it. The whole thing will go through, and will end the matter satisfactorily to us. Before I sit down, let me say this. I have experienced from the Labour Government, whenever I have had to speak to them about anything, the utmost civility and courtesy. With that part of the speech of the noble and learned Lord yesterday, in which he also referred to the Labour Government, I entirely agree. These things are much more serious than they appear here, when you come to the other side of the water. Perhaps it may be "Good-bye"; it may be "Au revoir"; and I wish to take this opportunity of
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saying that I have experienced the greatest courtesy from the Labour Government whenever I have had to approach them and to ask them about anything. I shall certainly vote against this Amendment.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD ARNOLD): Yesterday, on the Second Reading of this Bill, your Lordships thought fit to insert in the Motion for the Second Reading an Amendment the effect of which, I think it is right to say, was to make it apparent to the country that your Lordships wished to avoid making any effective Amendment to this Bill. I need scarcely say that the Amendment which has been moved by the noble and learned Lord is of a totally different character to the Amendment which was inserted yesterday. The noble and learned Lord who moved the Amendment to-day, in the course of the speech he made yesterday, with his usual candour and force, expressed his opinion of His Majesty's Government. I have no complaint to make of that; indeed, I have to thank him in that on more than one occasion he has been good enough to make observations about certain matters which we appreciate. I have also to thank the noble Earl who spoke last for his observations.
But the noble and learned Lord also expressed his opinion about our predecessors, and in the circumstances, in view of all that he said, I can quite understand why he is putting down this Amendment to-day in his own name. He will not be surprised, however, to hear that the Government offers to this Amendment the strongest possible opposition. To pass this Amendment, in fact, to pass any Amendment, would, as I have indicated, be contrary to the position which I understand your Lordships have, after the most careful consideration, quite definitely taken up with regard to this Bill. Your Lordships have made it clear that in all the circumstances you are prepared to let this Bill pass, and to let it pass without amendment.
Let me recall for a moment the course followed by the debate on the Second Reading. When I was moving the Second Reading of the Bill, I submitted that there could be no reasonable doubt as to what was, in fact, the intention both of

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the signatories to the Treaty and of Parliament, and that intention was that the Boundary Commissioners should be appointed. That view was questioned by some of your Lordships, but it received striking, and I think I may say conclusive, confirmation in the speech which the noble and learned Earl, Lord Birkenhead, delivered. He, as your Lordships know, was himself a signatory to the Treaty, and he informed your Lordships yesterday quite unequivocally that when he signed the Treaty neither he nor, so far as he was aware, any of his fellow signatories contemplated for one moment the situation which has, in fact, now arisen. That statement was confirmation of the view which the present Government entertained, a view which is only in conformity with the evidence afforded by the debates of those times, and, as I explained two days ago at length, it is precisely because of that view that the present Government felt compelled to introduce the present Bill.
This Bill is, in effect, a Bill to establish a Boundary Commission under Article 12 of the Treaty of December, 1921, notwithstanding the fact that the Government of Northern Ireland has declined to participate in that Commission, and the effect of the Amendment is this—and nobody knows it better than the noble and learned Lord himself—that if it were carried it would simply tear the Bill in two.
LORD CARSON: May I ask the noble Lord whether the same effect would not follow if the Parliament of the Free State refused to confirm the Bill?
LORD ARNOLD: I am not discussing that at the moment, I am discussing the Amendment; and the effect of the Amendment would undoubtedly be to tear the Bill in two. That is what it really comes to. Your Lordships, I understand, have declined to consider inserting Amendments in the Bill in Committee stage, and that decision applies to any Amendment. If that is so, how much more must it apply to this Amendment, which realty does destroy the Bill. It is, in fact, equivalent to the rejection of the Bill, and for this reason: that if it were passed it would put the position, back to what it was before the Bill was introduced.
LORD CARSON: A voluntary Bill!
LORD ARNOLD: It would put things back to the position they were in before the Bill was introduced. Therefore, it is an Amendment to which the Government must offer the stoutest opposition. Your Lordships have made quite clear that it is not your intention to enter into direct conflict on this Bill with another place on any Amendment whatever. I can imagine no Amendment which would provoke that conflict in a more direct form than the present one. I do not think I need pursue the matter further. I feel confident that your Lordships will not give this Amendment your support.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble Lord has referred to the debate which took place yesterday. 'I do not propose to refer to it in any particular, but the fact that the House of Lords agreed to the Second Reading Motion with an Amendment does not, in my judgment, and with great submission to the noble Lord, relieve him from the obligation of dealing with the arguments of noble Lords when moving Amendments on the Committee stage. It may be convenient for him to avoid the arguments used by my noble and learned friend by referring to something which happened yesterday, but provided there is a Committee stage, and there is in this case, and noble Lords submit Amendments, it is usual for the Government to meet the arguments put forward.
My noble and learned friend has used this opportunity, and I think quite legitimately, in order to exhibit in detail the essential vice of this Bill. I agree with him entirely that the way Ulster has been treated throughout the long history of this question has been deplorable, and by his Amendment he exhibits that this Bill, in its very essence, is a fresh occasion on which you are going to ignore the legitimate option of Ulster. He advanced the argument, and a very cogent argument, that once this House and another place have created a self-governing entity they are bound to have regard to the views and decisions of the democratic bodies they have themselves created. That has become settled constitutional law in our History. The fact that the Government have not consulted Ulster, and have not deferred to Ulster, in this matter only shows the essential vice of the position. Of course, it dates from a much earlier

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time. Ulster was abominably treated when she was promised to be consulted about the Treaty before her interests were in any way prejudiced. She was not consulted. The noble Lord, of course, is not responsible, but it was a very unfair proceeding and a very unjust proceeding, but when you have created this self-governing body in Ulster you cannot ignore it.
I assented to the Second Reading of the Bill because I thought it was the best course to pursue, but I do not think you have got rid of the difficulties by doing so. You will not arrange your boundary in this way. It was impressed on the House yesterday that nothing is going to solve this question except a voluntary arrangement. That is absolutely true. This voluntary principle, for which the noble and learned Lord pleads perhaps only in an academic form to-day as I understand ho is not going to a Division, will yet assert itself sooner or later. It does not matter what you do, what this Parliament does or what any Parliament does, once you have created this self-governing Constitution in Ulster this voluntary principle will assert itself, and without the assent of the elected representatives in Ulster you will never get a real, true and permanent solution. That has been brought out by this debate, and my noble and learned friend has used this opportunity of doing so.
For the reasons which I gave yesterday I agree that it would be unfortunate if we entered into a conflict with another place on this Bill which would, in effect, defeat it, and I hope that my noble and learned friend will be satisfied with the discussion that has taken place without pressing it to a Division. The noble Lord, the Under-Secretary, would, I think, have been better advised if, instead of referring in a general way to what took place yesterday, he had made an attempt to meet the arguments which have been put forward.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Lord, in resisting the Amendment, has thought fit to deal with the question in a very perfunctory manner. He seems obsessed with the idea that his duty, and the duty of those whom he represents, is merely to carry on the heritage which has been bequeathed to him by his predecessors. But surely the Govern-
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ment must have some definite view as to what effect this Bill, which is of course their own Bill, will have on the country; and it is very obvious that in refusing the Amendment the noble Lord has admitted that the Bill is nothing more nor less than a coercive Bill. The Treaty which was negotiated behind closed doors in Downing Street has naturally precluded the rights of Ulster being considered in any way throughout its stages, and we can quite well envisage the conversation between His Majesty's Ministers and the representatives of the Free State to the effect that in no circumstances must Ulster have a word in the mutilation of the territory placed under our charge by the Act of 1920.
It surely is inconceivable, when territory has been consecrated and handed over by Act of Parliament to a community, that such a question can be reopened and rediscussed and portions of that territory transferred to another jurisdiction. Yet the Treaty which the British Government have accepted at the-present moment is to the effect that it is open to the British Government and to the Free State, if a Commission so decides, to transfer portions of the territory of Northern Ireland to Southern Ireland. And the Parliament which you have set up in Northern Ireland is not to be able to say one word in the matter as to whether that territory should be transferred or should not be transferred. The reason that I have taken part in this discussion is to protest against the obvious and implied coercion which exists under this Bill, and I do feel that the time has come when this country should realise that by most of the provisions of the Bill, and especially by the omission of the provision to which the noble and learned Lord has drawn attention, this is naked coercion of a community to whom you have given, or say that you have given, the freedom of managing their own affairs. The noble Earl who sits behind me, Lord Mayo, and who seems eventually to have fallen down on the Sinn Fein side of the fence, if I may use the expression, seems to acquiesce in the coercion of Northern Ireland.
THE EARL OF MAYO: No.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: He is one of the noble Lords who used

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to appear to be very friendly to Ulster and who asked for our assistance on every possible occasion. We have seen now that when he has an opportunity of doing so he supports the coercion of the community with whom he has appeared to be on friendly terms. I have no doubt that the noble Earl, by his remarks, is qualifying for a seat on the Bench which is opposite me at the present moment, and I sincerely hope that he may achieve the object of his desires, because, when there are so many noble Lords who sit on this side of the House who certainly have the interests of Ulster at heart and have no hesitation in proving their support of the cause which we have endeavoured to put before you, I feel that the noble Earl will be in far better company if he joins those on the other side of the House who are imposing this coercion upon the Province to which I belong.
LORD CARSON: It is perfectly true—if the House will bear with me for one moment—that I put this Amendment upon the Paper in order to emphasise my protest against the coercion of Ulster. It was a perfectly legitimate Amendment, but at the same time, having made the protest, which there has been no attempt to answer and which remains now on the Reports and records of this House absolutely unanswered, that is as far as I am prepared to go. As I stated yesterday, I think that, whatever Government is in power, this Bill, or some Bill like it, would be imposed, or an attempt would be made to impose it, upon Ulster, and, as I certainly do not want to prolong the difficulties of Ulster, I should be sorry to do anything that would destroy the Bill. That being so, I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Schedule agreed, to.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, I beg to move, That Standing Order No. XXXIX. be considered in order to its being dispensed with.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have ordered:
That the promoters of the Private Bills which have been brought from the House of Lords in the present Session of Parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceeding thereon in order to proceed with the same, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Committee and Private Bill Office not later than one o'clock tomorrow, and that all fees thereon due up to that period be paid:
That every such Bill shall be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session:
That Bills to confirm any Provisional Order or Certificate introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, in the present Session, shall be suspended from the close of the present Session, in order to be proceeded with in the next Session of Parliament:
That the proceedings on every such Private Bill or Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Certificate shall be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages:
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to any such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session:
That all Petitions presented in the present Session against any such Bills shall stand referred to the Committee on the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament:
The Commons desired the concurrence of their Lordships thereto.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords,

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this is the usual Motion that we always receive, or rather the Motion that is always exchanged between the two Houses, when a General Election is upon us. The Commons have had one advantage over us in that they were able to give Notice of this Motion last night, whereas obviously it was impossible to give such Notice in your Lordships' House. In view of the position that has arisen, I would ask your Lordships to allow me to make a similar Motion in this House without Notice. It is a Motion, I can assure your Lordships, which is in the usual form, and there is ample precedent for it. I have actually looked up two precedents. The same Motion was passed in 1892, and also in 1918. I hope, therefore, that there will be no objection to relaxing our procedure to this extent, in view of the fact, as I understand, that we shall not sit after to-day. I will only add that this matter has been interposed now by the kindness of my noble friend opposite, Lord Ampthill, who proposes to ask a Question, because it is desirable to send the Message down to the Commons without delay in order to have the matter regularised.
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, the matter may be in usual form, as has been explained with great courtesy by the noble Earl, but it certainly is not in accordance with ordinary procedure that Notice should not be given. Of course, we cannot resist the noble Earl's Motion. It is merely another illustration of the extreme disadvantages of the precipitancy with which His Majesty's Government appear to be acting.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: In order to regularise the matter, I think it would be better that I should move the whole Motion, in order that it may appear in the proceedings and be within the knowledge of everybody outside the House to-morrow. I understand that my first Motion should be to agree with the Commons in their message.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Message.— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, that a Message be sent to the Commons acquainting them therewith.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I how beg to move:
That the promoters of every Private or Provisional Order Confirmation Bill which shall have been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which shall have passed this House and been sent to the House of Commons, or which shall be pending in this House, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in. the Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on the day after the close of the present Session; and that all fees due thereon, up to that period, be paid:
That an alphabetical list of all such Bills, with a statement of the stages at which they shall have arrived, shall be prepared in the Private Bill Office, and printed:
That such Bills shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed in the case of a Private Bill by the agent, and in the case of a Provisional Order Confirmation Bill by an officer of the Department by which the Orders to be confirmed by such Bill are made, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session, and where any sum of money has been deposited, as required by Standing Order No. 57, that such deposit has not been withdrawn, together with a certificate of that fact, from the proper officer of the court in which such money was deposited:
That the Proceedings on such Bills shall be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session; and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages:
That as regards all Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills which shall have been brought from the House of Commons in the present Session such Bills shall be allowed to proceed to the same stage at which they shall have arrived in the present Session, on the same conditions as those set forth in the preceding Orders in respect of Bills

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originating in this House; the declaration to be signed as aforesaid, stating that the Bill is in every respect the same as when brought to this House in this Session;
That if any such Bill shall have been amended in this; House in the present Session, the same Amendments shall be inserted by the Committee on the Bill;
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to any Private or Provisional Order Confirmation Bill which shall have originated in this House or been brought up from the House of Commons in the present Session, in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed;
That all Petitions presented in this Session relating to any Private Bill shall, if necessary, be referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session:
That no petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on any Bill unless their Petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present Session, unless that time shall not have expired before it closes, in which case, in order to be heard, their petition shall be presented not later than the fourth day on which the House shall sit in the next Session.
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Is the Motion in the usual form?
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: There is one word altered. We generally insist that notice shall be given in the office here of the intention of the promoters to avail themselves of this procedure on the day before Parliament dissolves. It is obviously in this case necessary that notice shall be given the day after, because it must be given to-morrow. That is the only difference from the usual form.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

IRISH FREE STATE OBLIGATIONS.
LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Government of the Irish Free State has taken, or is taking, any steps to carry out its obligations under Articles 5 and 8 of the Schedule attached to the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act,
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1922, and, if not, whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any action to secure the fulfilment of these important obligations?
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, I would remind the noble Lord that under Article 5 of the Articles of Agreement the amount of the liability to be assumed by the Irish Free State for Debt and War Pensions is to be determined by agreement, or, in default of agreement, by arbitration. No sum has yet been determined in pursuance of the Article, and His Majesty's Government intend to take up the question in due course. As regards Article 8 His Majesty's Government has no reason to believe that the military forces for which provision is made by the Government of the Irish Free State exceed the proportion laid down in that Article.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bill: —
Irish Free State (Confirmation of Agreement).

HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
And afterwards His Majesty's most gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth—
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,"My relations with Foreign Powers continue to be of a friendly nature.
"The acceptance of the Dawes Report by the Powers concerned was confirmed by the Conference held in London in July and August, when practical measures required in order to allow of the recommendations being put into force were unanimously approved. This happy result is due to the broadminded spirit of co-operation with which the very difficult problems involved were approached by the Powers concerned. I believe that this settlement will contribute largely to

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the restoration of international commerce, on which the material prosperity of this country so largely depends.
"Following the close understanding reached between the British and French Delegations at Geneva, the fifth Assembly of the League of Nations by formulating proposals for dealing with the problem of general arbitration and security has made an important advance on the road to the reduction of armaments. The issue of its discussions has been embodied in a protocol which will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible, and which' it is hoped will lead to the first practical measures for lightening the heavy burdens under which the nations are suffering.
"My Government have renewed diplomatic relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and have concluded with the Government of the Union the two Treaties which have been laid before you. These Treaties have for their object the re-establishment of political and commercial ties between Great Britain and Russia as a necessary element in the general pacification and economic reconstruction of Europe.
"Under the terms of the Treaty the question of the frontier between Turkey and Iraq has been referred to the Council of the League of Nations, who have decided to appoint a special Commission to report to them on the matter. Pending a final settlement both parties have undertaken to maintain the status quo on the frontier.
"I regret that, as explained in a Paper recently laid before you, the informal discussions with the Prime Minister of Egypt did not lead to negotiations which might have resulted in the conclusion of a satisfactory agreement. In the absence of such agreement the position of My Country in relation to Egypt will continue to be governed by the policy adopted when the Protectorate was withdrawn.
"Steps have been taken by My Ministers in conjunction with the Governments of My Dominions for the formation of a Committee to devise means for the more efficient marketing in this country of various articles of food
"Members of the House of Commons,
"I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"Though there are, I am glad to say, signs of distinct improvement in some of the principal industries and in certain branches of trade and commerce, severe depression continues. My Ministers have been actively engaged in the development of a constructive policy with a view to stimulating industry and encouraging trade as the only means of dealing fundamentally with the unemployment from which a large proportion of Our fellow-citizens are still suffering. Meanwhile, the measures taken by My Ministers for the provision of increased and continuous unemployment benefit have not only lightened the burden upon the ratepayers in the most necessitous areas, but have also alleviated the sufferings of the innocent victims of industrial depression.
"The measures taken by My Ministers, with the support of Parliament, to enable local authorities and the building industry to engage in a fifteen years' uninterrupted building programme will, I hope, afford an effective remedy for the serious overcrowding which continues to be a source of grievous harm to the character and physique of many hundreds of thousands of My people.
"Steps have also been taken by My Government to assist agriculture by loans to Farmers' Co-operative Societies and by increasing grants-in-aid of agricultural education and research. An Act has also been passed to regulate the wages of agricultural labourers in England and Wales.
"The taking of a new Census of Production, together with various other inquiries which have been set on foot, will, I hope, afford valuable indications of the directions in which the industrial and commercial organisation of the country can be improved.
"The advance of educational development has been freed from the restrictions recently imposed upon it and the lines for further progress have been laid down towards a more universal system of secondary education.
"In bidding you farewell, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours."
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's name
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and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Friday, the thirty-first day of October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Friday, the thirty-first day of October, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-four.
End of the Session of the Thirty-third Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the fifteenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George V.