Sitting of 31 May 1923

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.
MITCHAM URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 2a and committed.
TEES VALLEY WATER BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

RENT RESTRICTIONS (NOTICES OF INCREASE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Novar.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 (Power to suspend liability if premises unfit for human habitation or in state of disrepair):
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR)THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR) moved, after subsection (2), to insert the following new subsections:
"(3) Where a tenant has obtained from the sanitary authority a certificate that the house is not in a reasonable state of repair, and has served a copy of the certificate upon the landlord, it shall be a good defence to any claim against the tenant for the payment of any sum which the tenant is by virtue of this Act liable to pay by way of rent or on account of arrears in respect of any subsequent rental period that the house was not in a reasonable state of repair during that period, and in any proceedings against the tenant for the enforcement of such claim (including proceedings for recovery of possession or ejectment on the ground of non-payment of rent so far as the rent unpaid includes any such sum), the production of the said certificate shall be sufficient evidence that the house was and continues to be in the condition therein mentioned unless the contrary is proved:
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"Provided that the foregoing provision shall not apply in any case where and so far as the condition of the house is due to the tenant's neglect or default or breach of express agreement.
"(4) For the purposes of this Act a certificate of a sanitary authority shall specify what works (if any) require to be executed in order to put the house into a reasonable state of repair.
"(5) An instrument purporting to be a certificate of a sanitary authority and to be signed by an officer of the authority shall, without further proof, be taken to be a certificate of the authority unless the contrary is proved."
The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment, which I move on behalf of the Lord Chancellor, is to prevent the benefits conferred by the Bill being secured by landlords who do not do their duty by their tenants in keeping their houses in a proper state of repair. Clause 3 already provides a remedy, but that remedy has been found ineffectual in practice, because in order to obtain it an application by the tenant to the county court or sheriff is necessary, and the tenants of slum landlords, speaking generally, are amongst the poorest and most ignorant, and do not take the initiative. It is true that both the Act of 1920 and Clause 3 of this Bill enable a sanitary authority to take action on behalf of tenants, but it has been found in practice that, generally speaking, sanitary authorities are not disposed to exercise their powers.
The remedy proposed by this Amendment is to make disrepair, if certified by a sanitary authority, a good defence in an action for the recovery of the increases of rent validated by this Bill. The tenant, therefore, will not have to initiate legal proceedings. The Amendment is, in truth, in the interests not only of the tenant but of the large mass of landlords. This is a point on which the Attorney-General laid some stress. He said that landlords suffered at present through being accused as a body of keeping their premises insanitary while extorting exorbitant rents. If a simple remedy is provided for cases in which this is true, as is proposed in this Amendment, the great mass of landlords who act reasonably and properly will cease to suffer from this slur. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 9, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I venture to express my thanks to the noble Viscount for the Amendment, which he has moved. I think it marks a very distinct improvement in the Bill. The matter was not mentioned when we had a short discussion on the Second Reading; we were dealing with other matters which were equally germane, but the absence of this suggestion was noticed by a good many people. The object of the Amendment has, I am sure, the sympathy of most noble Lords on this side of the House. With the technical side of the matter I am not at all qualified to deal. No doubt it will be dealt with by lawyers in another place. But in so far as I understand the object of the Amendment which has been moved by the noble, Viscount it has my heartiest sympathy and my best wishes.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.

INDUSTRIAL ASSURANCE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered. Your Lordships are placed, I am sorry to say, under a great disadvantage owing to the unfortunate indisposition of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, but I must do my best very inadequately to supply his place. The course which I should propose to take is to make this Motion and, as I understand that my noble and learned friend opposite, Lord Parmoor, may have some observations to make upon it, if it be agreed to, I should then move the Amendments seriatim, giving such explanations as are necessary if any noble Lords should challenge them.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I think it would be convenient to adopt the
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course suggested by the noble Marquess and to say a few words at this stage. In that way I think time will be saved. I regret as much as the noble Marquess the absence of the Lord Chancellor, who has given so much attention to this subject, but as the Bill was framed on the Report of a Committee of which I had the honour to act as Chairman there are one or two matters to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. The Commons Amendments to this Bill as it left your Lordships' House may be divided under three heads: There are Amendments which are no more than questions of drafting; there are Amendments which make mattere clearer—not merely drafting Amendments, but alterations in language which I think are improvements—and there are one or two new matters of substance which have been introduced and which were not in the Bill when it left your Lordships' House.
I have considered all these Amendments very carefully in detail and with reference to the Report on which the Bill itself is founded, and I do not think there is any alteration in principle from what was determined in your Lordships' House when the Bill was sent to another place. Nor do I think that any of these Amendments are such that they ought to be questioned in any way in this House. They may all be accepted by your Lordships, as has been suggested by the noble Marquess. I am naturally very anxious that this Bill should go forward and become law at the earliest possible moment, because the Committee to which I have referred pointed out a large number of very grave abuses affecting poor people in the law of industrial assurance, all of which, in my opinion, have without exception been dealt with in the measure introduced by the Government. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Government for having introduced a Bill based on the Report and following its terms, and I believe it will be found an effectual method of dealing with what undoubtedly were found to be very grave abuses. So far as I am concerned, having looked carefully through all these Amendments, I think no objection should be taken to any of them.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 16.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 9, after ("company") insert ("within the meaning of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, which is either").
Clause 1, page 2, line 5, after ("effected") insert ("whether before or after the passing of this Act")
Clause 1, page 2, line 17, after the first ("by") leave out ("the ordinary") and insert ("a")
Clause 1, page 2, line 17, after ("branch") leave out ("and not by") and insert ("other than")
Clause 1, page 2, lines 23 and 24, leave out ("the ordinary") and insert ("a")
Clause 1, page 2, line 24, leave out ("and not by") and insert ("other than").
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the Amendments to Clause 1.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not know whether your Lordships would like me to take the remaining Amendments en bloc, or to move the Amendments to each clause separately.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Take them together.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 16.]
Clause 4, page 3, line 22, at end insert:
("Except that there shall be substituted for the words 'of six pounds for children under five years of age and ten pounds for children under ten years of age' the following: 'six pounds for children under three years of age, ten pounds for children up to six years of age, and fifteen pounds for children up to ten years of age.' ")
Clause 7, page 4, line 41, leave out ("if")
Clause 7, pages 4 and 5, leave out from ("Commissioner") in page 4, line 42, to ("if") in page 5, line 2, and insert ("shall")
Clause 7, page 5, line 6, at end insert ("and shall on the application of the society from time to time further postpone the time for making the deposit if he is still satisfied as to the financial position of the society, but not for more than five years at any one time:")
Clause 7, page 5, line 26, at end insert:
("(2) If a society feel aggrieved at a refusal of the Commissioner to allow further time for making a deposit under paragraph
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(c) of subsection (1) of this section the society may, with the leave of the court, appeal to the High Court or, in the case of a society registered in Scotland, to the Court of Session.")
Clause 8, page 7, line 5, after ("the") leave out ("commencement of this Act") and insert ("fourteenth day of February nineteen hundred and twenty-three").
Clause 10, page 8, line 30, leave out ("passing") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 10, page 8, line 35, leave out ("passing") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 10, page 8, line 39, leave out lines 39 to 43 and insert the following new clause:
Special provision as to juvenile societies.
("—(1) Where a juvenile society within the meaning of this section established before the passing of this Act has been accustomed to receive contributions from its members by means of collectors, the provisions of this Act shall not apply to the society before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, and if any such society is or has before that date become registered the Commissioner may, if he considers that the society is one to which the provisions of this Act ought not to apply, grant to the society a certificate of exemption from the provisions of this Act subject to the like power of revocation as in the case of certificates of exemption granted under the last preceding section.
(2) For the purposes of this section, 'juvenile society' means a friendly society or branch thereof, whether registered or unregistered, admission to membership whereof is by its rules limited to persons under eighteen years of age, and which satisfies the Commissioner that it is established for the purpose of recruiting members for another friendly society or for the society of which it is a branch.")
Clause 11, page 10, line 25, after ("actuaries") insert ("or by the President of the Faculty of Actuaries in Scotland").
Clause 13, page 11, line 7, after ("association") insert ("or rules").
Clause 16, page 12, line 5, leave out ("reason") and insert ("reasonable cause")
Clause 16, page 12, line 34, at end insert:
("Provided that any society or company or person directed to pay any part of such expenses may, with the leave of the court, appeal against the direction to the High Court, or in the case of a society or company registered in Scotland to the Court of Session.")
Clause 17, page 14, line 43, after ("court") insert ("or in the case of a society or company registered in Scotland to the Court of Session.")
Clause 25, page 21, line 32, after the first ("of") insert ("and rights under")
Clause 25, page 21, line 32, after the second ("of") insert ("and rights under")
Clause 25, page 21, lines 37 to 43, leave out subsection (3) and insert:

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("(3) The society or company to which the assured is sought to be transferred shall furnish to the person by whom such consent us aforesaid is signed a copy of such consent and of the document annexed thereto, and shall within seven days from the date when such consent is signed give to the society or company from which the assured is sought to be transferred notice of the proposed Transfer containing full particulars of the name and address of the assured and the number of his policy, together with such consent as aforesaid, and the document annexed "thereto.")
Clause 29, page 23, line 20, after ("court") insert ("or in the case of a society or company registered in Scotland the Court of Session ").
Clause 31, page 25, lines 5 and 6, leave out ("twenty-five") and insert ("fifty").
Clause 32, page 25, line 34, after ("collector") insert ("or superintendent").
Clause 33, page 26, line 5, leave out from the beginning of line 5 to the end of line 8 and insert:
("(2) For the purposes of this section references to regular employment shall include regular part-time as well as regular whole-time employment.")
Clause 35, page 27, line 18, at end insert ("and section seventy-one of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, so far as it enables a registered friendly society to amalgamate with or transfer its engagements to a company, shall not apply to a collecting society.")
Clause 37, page 27, line 27, at beginning insert:
Conversion of collecting society into company.
("(1) Section seventy-one of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, so far as it relates to the conversion of a society into a company shall, in its application to a collecting society, have effect subject to the following modifications:

(a) A copy of the special resolution shall he sent to the Commissioner;

(b) If within one month after the copy of the special resolution is so sent to him the Commissioner gives notice in writing to the society that he objects to the conversion, the conversion shall not be effected without the sanction of the High Court or in the case of a society registered in Scotland of the Court of Session;

(c) On the application to the court for such sanction the Commissioner shall be entitled to appear and be heard.")

Clause 37, page 27, line 28, at end insert ("as so amended")
Clause 37, page 27, line 34, after ("hearing") insert ("the Commissioner if he desires to be heard and").
Clause 38, page 28, lines 17 and 18, leave out ("and, as so applied, extend to unregistered societies")
Clause 38, page 28, line 38, at end insert:
("(4) Where any body of persons not being a collecting society or industrial assurance company as defined by this Act carries on industrial assurance business, any director, manager or secretary or other officer or agent of that body who is knowingly a party to the carrying on of such business shall, unless that body is exempted from the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence under this Act and be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds for each day during which the offence continues:
Provided that where a person is convicted of a second offence under this subsection, he may be sentenced to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding three mouths.
Any such body of persons as aforesaid shall also, without prejudice to any other penalty, be liable to pay to the owner of any policy of industrial assurance issued by them such sum as an industrial assurance company which has knowingly issued an illegal policy is under this Act liable to pay to the owner of such illegal policy.")
Page 29, line 7, at end, insert:
("(6) The court by which a fine is imposed in pursuance of this Act may direct that the whole or any part thereof shall be applied in or towards the payment of the costs of the proceedings and subject to any such direction and, subject in England, to Section four of the Criminal Justice Administration Act. 1914, all such fines shall, notwithstanding anything in any other Act, be paid into the Exchequer.")
Clause 42, page 30, line 26, at the beginning insert ("for imposing fees")
Clause 42, page 30, line 28, at end insert ("and if an address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty days on which that House has sat next after the regulations are laid before it praying that the regulations may be annulled, they shall thenceforth be void but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done there-under or to the making of new regulations. If the Session of Parliament ends before such twenty days as aforesaid have expired the regulations shall be laid before each House of Parliament at the commencement of the next Session as if they had not previously been laid").
Clause 44, page 31, lines 34 and 35, leave out ("and be liable to be set aside in like manner")
Clause 44, page 31, line 37, at end insert:
("Provided that the society may appeal against the award to the High Court or in the case of a society registered in Scotland to the Court of Session.")
THE MAUQIJESS Of SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships do agree with the remaining Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL. [H.L.]
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to make the Motion standing on the Paper—namely, That the Order of the 19th of April last committing the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House be discharged, and that it is desirable that the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament. When this Bill was before the House on a previous occasion considerable criticisms were made against it, notably by my noble and learned friend Lord Sumner, who spoke from the point of view from which, of course, he is so eminently qualified to speak, of an eminent lawyer. Other lawyers, perhaps not quite so distinguished as himself, have also criticised the Bill, and I am sorry to say that criticism is not confined to noble and learned Lords, but that a certain number of other interests have made comments on the Bill.
That has been a matter of considerable concern to His Majesty's Government, for I need not say that in matters of this kind it is far better, if possible, that all difficulties should be got over and interests conciliated rather than that the Bill should be driven through by the mere force of political majorities. Therefore, after discussion with the representatives of shipowners, cargo owners, and bankers, it has been thought best, after all, that this Bill should be considered by a Joint Select Committee before it is passed into law. In that way all the difficulties can be either explained away or met, and there need be no feeling, hereafter, that all interests have not been considered. The Government are very anxious indeed that the Bill should pass into law, as is, I believe, everybody, and there is no desire to delay the measure. On the contrary, it is in the main in the hope of facilitating discussion and the passage of the Bill in another place, that this proposal is made, and we hope thereby to satisfy all interests.
If your Lordships think fit to agree to this Motion, and it is assented to in
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another place, I am able to inform your Lordships that so distinguished a Judge as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Sterndale, has consented to act as Chairman of the Joint Select Committee. I hope that that will show your Lordships that every matter submitted to the Committee will be duly considered and considered with despatch. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Order of the 19th of April last committing the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House be discharged, and that it is desirable that the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution and to desire their concurrence.

ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDER.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name upon the Order Paper. This is a Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners and confirmed by the Minister of Transport, in pursuance of powers conferred by Section 26 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919. The Order has been laid before each House of Parliament for approval by Resolution, in accordance with that section. The present procedure as regards Special Orders has taken the place of the former procedure of promoting Provisional Orders which required confirmation by an Act of Parliament. The Order is in the usual form, and the promoters of this Special Order have a private Bill at present before the House of Lords under the title of "The Shropshire, Worcestershire and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill," and it is not now intended that the Special Order shall be held up pending the result of the other Bill. No objection has been lodged to the confirmation by the Minister of the Order as made by the Electricity Commissioners. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922, and confirmed by the Minister of

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Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of the borough of Droitwich, the urban districts of Bromsgrove and North Bromsgrove, the rural district of Bromsgrove, and part of the rural district of Droitwich, all in the County of Worcester, be approved.—(Lord Somerleyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
[From Minutes of May 30.]

NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
SHROPSHIRE, WORCESTERSHIRE AND STAFFORDSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.

SMETHW1CK CORPORATION (GAS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes to five o'clock.

GUARDIANSHIP OF INFANTS BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the Guardianship, &c., of Infants Bill do meet the Lords Committee in Committee Room C on Wednesday, the 20th of June next, at half-past eleven o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with a Committee of this House to consider the Consolidation Bills do meet the Committee appointed by their Lordships in the Chairman of Committee's Committee Room on Tuesday next, at twelve o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.
The evidence taken before the Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.

RAWMARSH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL. [H.L.]
  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
NATIONALITY OF MARRIED WOMEN.
The evidence taken before the Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee, and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
PETROLEUM BILL. [H.L.]
The evidence taken before the Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.