Sitting of 21 June 1923

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.
BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL.
PORT OF LONDON (DOCK CHARGES) BILL.
RUGBY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Resolution of which Notice has been given with reference to these Bills. There are adequate reasons why they have not reached your Lordships within the time specified in the Sessional Order.
Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Thursday the 14th day of June next" be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and Bills read 2a accordingly.

SHROPSHIRE, WORCESTERSHIRE AND STAFFORDSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

BRADFORD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
Order of the Day read for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, before I put the Motion that this House go into Committee, I think that, for your convenience, I should explain the procedure which I suggest you should follow in dealing with this Bill. When the Bill was before me in the Unopposed Bill Committee there was a provision in the Bill which I was not certain came within the authority derived from the original Act, and as I was not satisfied, and had no reason given me for its inclusion, I struck it out. A representative of the Ministry of Transport has since communicated with me, and I am now satisfied that it is right and proper that the Bill should be in its original form. I therefore propose, when we go into Committee, to put the Question that the Amendment proposed in the Select Commitee be negatived.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Somer-leyton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Amendment proposed by the Committee negatived: Bill reported without amendment.

WAR MEMORIALS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' POWERS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, the Bill of which I hope your Lordships will pass the Second Reading to-day is a measure simple in matter, small in compass and, I hope, uncontentious in character. It is designed to take away any uncertainty in the existing law and to remedy a pressing need with regard to the war memorials which now exist, so far as their preservation, protection and repair in the future are concerned. Any traveller going through the country may see these war memorials. They are to be found in the smallest villages and in the largest cities—memorials of all kinds, industrial, ecclesiastical, regimental and parochial. I am sure your Lordships will feel that these thousands of memorials, which are the expression of a genuine love and

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gratitude on the part of those who erected them to those who paid their full measure of devotion in sacrificing their lives, should be maintained in a proper and fit state so that the spirit of sacrifice may be maintained and stimulated in future times.
Your Lordships will understand, perhaps, that people coming from a foreign country and seeing these memorials may feel in many cases that already they deserve greater care and attention than they have received and, naturally, as time goes on, the donors pass away, and in many cases there is no responsible authority to look after them. It is the object of this measure to give powers to local authorities to act in the matter. Some local authorities already have powers, but those powers are such that it is not altogether a simple matter for the authority to put itself into a position to take advantage of them. Other local authorities do not possess powers. It is the intention of the promoters of this Bill to remove all uncertainty in the matter and to give powers to act to those authorities which have not the powers already. Your Lordships will notice in the Bill that existing powers are in no way affected by this measure should it become law.
The local authorities to whom these powers will be entrusted will be the councils of the counties and of the county and non-county boroughs, the parish councils and parish meetings where no parish council exists, and urban district councils. Naturally, a considerable sum of money, though not a great sum in any particular district, will be required to carry out these duties, and it is proposed that in the case of parish councils and parish meetings the sum to be expended on this purpose should not exceed that which would be raised by a penny rate. This provision would be subject to the approval of the county council. In the case of other authorities such sum as might be proposed to be expended would be subject to the approval of the Minister of Health. In passing, I may mention that if this Bill passes its Second Reading to-day the Scottish Office, having considered the question, desire that Scotland should be excluded from the Bill because in their view Scotland already has sufficient powers to deal with the matter.
Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that the Bill has passed through all its
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stages in another place, where it was favourably viewed by the Government and supported by members of all Parties. I sincerely trust that your Lordships may feel that this uncontentious measure is urgently required, because I think it will be felt that we ought not to appear to be lacking in veneration by any neglect of memorials erected in honour of those who gave their lives for the country and whose sacrifice enable those who remain to find a country very different from what it might have been in other circumstances. Those who come after us will, I hope, never know the disasters that might have befallen us had those sacrifices not been made. Should you pass the Second Heading to-day I should propose, with your Lordships' acquiescence, that the Committee stage should be put down for Thursday of next week. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Rochdale.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I am sure we all cordially agree with the sentiments expressed in the eloquent speech of the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill. It is a Bill the objects of which all of us have at heart, and which we should all be glad to see brought into force. I need not say anything more, therefore, on that subject, except that the Bill has been accepted by the Government as an agreed measure, and that as such it conies before your Lordships' House. With regard to Scotland, I have received a letter from my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland, who is not able to be in his place to-day, and who has asked me to make a statement on his behalf. The Title of the Bill as it stands is wide enough to cover Scottish local authorities, but a certain amount of adaptation might be necessary in the drafting if Scotland were to be included. I understand, however, that there is no necessity for a Bill of this kind in Scotland, because, apparently, they already possess in Scotland the necessary powers to maintain war memorials. My noble friend has, therefore, asked me to state that it will probably be necessary, on the Committee stage of the Bill to move an Amendment excluding Scotland from the scope of the measure. As the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading has announced his intention of putting down

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the Bill for the Committee stage a week to-day there will be plenty of time in which to consider the question.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I rise to express my very hearty approval of this Bill. I cannot imagine that it will meet with opposition in any quarter of the House. Indeed, the only criticism which I have to make upon it is that I am not quite sure whether it goes far enough, and perhaps my noble friend will allow me to have some correspondence with him before the Committee stage is reached. All those of your Lordships who travel about the country will have been struck by the number of monuments which are to be found in the different villages, showing—and I think it is an admirable thing that they should show—the devotion and the pride which many villages have in the people who have been born in the particular village. It has occurred to me that in a good many cases it would be very desirable that we should give power to the local authorities to maintain these memorials in good condition. I am not sure whether the limitation to war memorials, which is included by the noble Lord in this Bill, would allow us to do that.
What I have in my mind, if I may give your Lordships an example, is the statue of Wolfe in the village in which he was born. I am not at all sure that it would be possible under the Bill for that particular local authority to maintain that statue in order, and yet I think it is clear that we should all wish it to be, and I am certain the noble Lord opposite would wish it also. Some Amendment in Committee might be necessary in order to make it possible. We all agree, and I am sure that we shall be able to find some form of words which will be agreeable to everybody in your Lordships' House. I should not propose that the rate should be increased even if we bring a larger class of monuments within the scope of the Bill. A penny rate ought to provide sufficient money in order to maintain these monuments in good condition. But, subject to what I have said, I hope that not only the noble Lord who introduced the Bill but that your Lordships' House generally will agree with what I have said. I have the very greatest pleasure in supporting the measure which he has introduced.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF ANCASTER): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a Third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
VISCOUNT ULLSWATER: My Lords, before we finally part with this Bill, I should like to say a word or two about it. Your Lordships will probably remember that at a very late stage in the other House a clause was introduced constituting a fishery board for the Solway Firth. This fishery board is of a somewhat peculiar character, and has to depend entirely for its funds upon the contributions which it would or could receive from some of the neighbouring fishery boards. In that part of the world, with which for many years I was very closely connected, we have always been struggling to get a fishery board for the Solway which, by administering the two sides of the Solway, the Scottish and the English, and having them both under their own control, would be able to carry out a just and fair administration as between the Englishmen and the Scotsmen.
At this stage I need not go into the many difficulties which exist as between the two sides of the Solway. We on our side think that the Scotsmen have always got the better of us and are in a better position to catch the fish in the Solway than we are. But, however that may be, I think we have agreed that the proper method of solving the difficulty is to have a joint board. So far, so good. But the joint board are given no powers of raising any funds for the purpose for which they would really be most useful; that is, to purchase the fishing rights in the fixed engines which belong to the Scotsmen on the northern side of the Solway. What we have always looked for is that some board would be established which would have the right to raise by some means or other sufficient funds to buy these

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proprietors out. On the last occasion on which this Bill was before your Lordships I suggested that the Solway Board should be given the right to establish fixed engines on the southern side of the Solway. Those engines they would let out by means of licences and would be able to collect funds, which, being accumulated, would enable them to buy out the nets on the other side, and then, in course of time, the nets on both sides would gradually disappear.
But superior wisdom decided that it was undesirable that the Solway Board should have this right. The result is somewhat peculiar, because the contributory boards—the Eden Fishery Board, for example, which would be a contributory board to the Solway Board—have the right of establishing these fixed engines under Clause 38, subsection (1), paragraph (e). The Bill gives power to every fishery board to set up fixed engines and to lease them, and in that way to raise funds for themselves. But the power which is given to the contributory boards is not given to the superior board. The result is that the superior board is left without any funds; whereas the contributory board, the minor body, is entitled under the Bill to set up these engines and to receive funds. I venture to think that is a very anomalous position and is really a rather serious blot upon the Bill. In all other respects I think the Bill is an admirable one and I am very glad indeed that it has had such an easy passage through your Lordships' House. I trust that it may result in the catching of a very much larger number of salmon than have hitherto come to the rod.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 38:
Contents of the Order.
38.—(1) An order under this Part of this Act may provide for—
THE EARL OF ANCASTER THE EARL OF ANCASTER moved, in subsection (1), after paragraph (i), to insert the following new paragraph:—
" (j) amending or revoking any previous order made under this Act or any Act repealed by this Act."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment of which I have given notice. I am very sorry that when this Bill came up for Third Reading on
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Thursday last I had to give notice to postpone the Third Reading because, on a careful examination of the clauses of the Bill as printed after the Report Stage, it was found that owing to a mistake subsection (4) of Section 5 of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1907, one of the Acts consolidated by this measure, had been omitted. The Amendment which I now move has the object of rectifying that omission. I am sorry that the mistake was not discovered earlier. The Amendment is pure consolidation and I hope that your Lordships will agree to it.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 21, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(The Earl of Ancaster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

SITTINGS OF PARLIAMENT.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government if it is intended to appoint a Committee to consider the question of the sittings of Parliament; and, if so, whether this House will be represented upon it. I placed this Question on the Paper in consequence of a statement which I observed a few days ago in The Times. Fortunately, owing to a change of management and of proprietorship, The Times has again become an important and responsible organ and anything that it publishes with regard to political questions deserves to be treated wth respect. I have always observed that it is well informed, and I have no doubt that upon this occasion the information is correct.
The reason why I have drawn attention to this announcement is this. I observed to my surprise that it was proposed to appoint a Select Committee of the House of Commons to consider this question in consultation with the authorities of the House of Lords. Now, what does this phrase mean? Who are the authorities of the House of Lords? Does it mean the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, or does it mean the officials of this House? I have personally a great respect for them all. I have a great respect for my noble friend at present occupying the Woolsack, and I have, if possible, even greater respect for the officials of this House whom I look

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upon as amongst the most meritorious and obliging of mankind. But what I desire to point out is that this is by no means sufficient. If there is to be a Committee which is to consider the question of the sittings of Parliament it seems to me that the persons who ought to be on that Committee are representatives of the members of this House, and it is not sufficient to appoint a Committee which presumably will call as witnesses some of the gentlemen to whom I have just alluded.
It so happens that this is a question in which I have been considerably interested, and from time to time I have succeeded in inducing this House to pass various Resolutions, none of which, I may add, have ever had the smallest attention paid to them. It is a matter of great satisfaction to me to see that this question is at last, according to The Times, to be brought before a Committee of some kind or other, and I have no doubt that the hoary myth which still exists that the House of Commons consists of hunting men will receive its death blow. That is a myth or superstition which has governed the sittings of Parliament and the movements of society in London, and the time has now arrived when, in my opinion, the death blow ought to be dealt to it. I have no doubt that will be the case. What I really rose to ask my noble friend who is leading the House was whether, if the statement is correct that a Committee is going to be appointed for the purpose of considering this matter, this House will be adequately represented upon it.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I always have the greatest sympathy with my noble friend, and I have very special sympathy with him when he is acting as a vigilant guardian of the rights of your Lordships' House. May I assure him—and I know that he will be delighted to hear it—that he is not the only vigilant guardian of our rights, and that there are several noble Lords upon this Bench who are at least equally anxious to see that nothing affecting Parliament, as a whole, shall be carried into effect without due consideration of the opinions which your Lordships may have, and may desire to express. The information which has reached my noble friend is only partially correct. It is
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true that there is a movement to consider again the question of the period during which Parliamentary sittings should be held, but it is not true that the Government ever contemplated that the matter should be confined to the attention of a Committee consisting of members of one House only. The Government have considered the subject because it was put before them by a very influential section of opinion in the House of Commons, and they have resolved to recommend to both Houses of Parliament the appointment of a Joint Select Committee to consider this question.
It is a strictly limited question. We do not think that any useful purpose would be served by going into the whole elaborate question of Parliamentary proceedings. That has been done on several occasions, and has not led to very much. Moreover, if we had a reference as wide as that the probability is that the Inquiry would take an inordinate length of time, and, therefore, would not lead to any effective result. Consequently, the proposed reference is quite limited—namely, to consider the desirability of altering the customary period of the Parliamentary Session, and the necessary changes incidental thereto. We hope that both Houses of Parliament will consent to the proposal. My noble friend has remarked with severity upon the failure of the House of Commons as a sporting community. He said it was a pure delusion that they wanted to hunt. That may be, but I would not like to make reflections upon the sporting proclivities of another place. It is true, however, that the interests of hunting must not be considered to be in competition with the proper work of Parliament.
The difficulty which has arisen is this. As your Lordships are aware, the greater part of the early period of each year is taken up in the House of Commons by the consideration of financial business, and the earlier stages of legislation are not possible, except to a very limited extent, during those early months of the year. The consequence is that the whole procedure of Standing Committees is at a standstill, because there are no Bills to be sent to Standing Committees, and, therefore, it was thought by a certain body of opinion in the House of Commons that if the early stages of Bills could be got through before Christmas it would be

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possible, while the financial business was going through the House of Commons itself, for the Standing Committees to be set to work, thereby saving a great deal of time.
I need not say that I pronounce no opinion upon that suggestion, both because I am ill qualified to pronounce an opinion upon the business of the House of Commons, and because, as it is a matter for investigation, it would obviously be unwise to come to any conclusion upon it before it has been considered by the Committee. There is upon the other side of the question the consideration, which I do not think affects my noble friend, that any such change would make Autumn Sessions a permanent institution in this country. They are very nearly so now, but they would become absolutely so. Autumn Sessions would become as essential a part of our Parliamentary system as are any of the Rules which now govern us. To those of us who look back with a certain regret to the old
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system under which the autumn was free, that is a matter of considerable concern; but these matters will no doubt be gone into by the Joint Select Committee when it sits, and I hope, when I have the honour to move the appointment of the Select Committee, that your Lordships will assent to it.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I beg to make the Motion standing in my name. I do not think I need detain the House by any remark upon it.
Moved, That the Lord Trevethin be discharged from serving on the Joint Committee, and that the Earl of Malmesbury be named of the Committee in his place.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at ten minutes before five o'clock.

Preamble
The Marquess of Cholmondeley—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Select Committee appointed by them to join with the Select Committee appointed by this House to consider the said Bill do meet the Lords Committee in Committee Room A this day at twelve o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Select Committee appointed by them to join with the Select Committee appointed by this House on Indian Affairs do meet the Lords Committee in Committee Room A on Tuesday next at a quarter past twelve o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.
GLASGOW CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
AIRDRIE, COATBRIDGE AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
To be read 3a on Tuesday next.
BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL.
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
POUT OF LONDON (DOCK CHARGES BILL).
Committed for Tuesday next.
RUGBY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Committed.
WEST HARTLEPOOL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
STALYBRIDGE, HYDE, MOSSLEY AND DUKINFIELD TRAMWAYS AND ELECTRICITY BOARD BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Earl of Powis be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Liverpool; read, and agreed to.

GUARDIANSHIP OF INFANTS BILL. [H.L.]
The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
The LOED SPEAKER acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Calne Water).
Also the Certificates that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:
Hawkshead Mission Chapel Charity.
Lucas's Hospital Charity.
Tancred's Charities.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
House to be in Committee on Thursday next.
LEGITIMACY BILL.
To be read 2a on Wednesday the 4th of July next.—(Lord Muir-Mackenzie.)
HAWKSHEAD MISSION CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
LUCAS'S HOSPITAL CHARITY BILL.
TANCRED'S CHARITIES BILL.
To be read 2a on Tuesday next.—(The Earl of Onslow.)