Sitting of 26 July 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Stoke-on-Trent Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
Oyster and Mussel Fishery (Seasalter and Ham) Provisional Order Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the Clock.

NATIONAL DEBT.
Return Ordered "showing for each financial year, commencing the 1st day of April, from 1875 to 1923, inclusive:

(1) The total amount of dead-weight Debt outstanding on the 1st day of April; the amounts which were made available in each year to 1922–23, inclusive, for reduction of Debt, distinguishing the sums expressly provided for service of the Debt, the Old Sinking Fund, and miscellaneous receipts; the gross amount of Debt redeemed; the amount of Debt created; and the net increase or decrease of Debt in the year;

(2) A similar Statement in respect of other capital liabilities;

(3) A similar Statement in respect of the aggregate gross liabilities of the State (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 168, of Session 1, 1922)."—[Sir William Joynson-Hicks.]

PERSONS IN RECEIPT OF POOR LAW RELIEF (ENGLAND AND WALES).
Copy ordered of Statement "of the number of persons in receipt of Poor Law relief in England and Wales on the night
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of the 1st day of January, 1923 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 172 of Session 1, 1922)."—[Mr. Neville Chamberlain.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  EX-SERVICE MEN.

    DEATH (CHRISTOPHER SANDS).
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been drawn to the inquest held at Walthamstow on the 18th instant, on the body of Christopher Sands, an ex-service man, and to the statement made by the coroner that the evidence showed that the man contracted consumption during the War, went to a sanatorium in 1922, and, when he left, applied for a pension which was refused; that he and his wife and child existed on parish relief because he could not get work and was incapable of working even if he had a job; and can he state for what reason the pension was refused?
    The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): I have inquired into the facts of this case and I find that the late soldier, who was demobilised in February, 1919, made no application for pension until some three years later in March, 1922. I do not know what led the coroner to express the opinion reported in the Press, as no evidence was produced by the man that would support the view that his disability was contracted during service. In fact, the Ministry were unable to find any medical history of the disease of a date earlier than October, 1921. The claim to pension was rejected by the Ministry on the ground that the tuberculosis was neither due to nor worsened by service, and that decision was subsequently confirmed, on appeal, by the independent Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
    Mr. MORRISON: May I take it that the statement of the coroner was not true?
    Major TRYON: The answer I gave was that the opinion expressed by the Coroner was not supported by evidence.
    Mr. MORRISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is more dissatisfaction over this type of case than any other?
    Major TRYON: I am quite aware of the dissatisfaction, and I know some of the causes; but I know that this House decided that we should not finally decide these questions, and that they should be settled by an independent tribunal.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this man served overseas?
    Major TRYON: Not without notice.

    MENTAL CASES.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Pensions how many cases of insane ex-service in-patients have, within the last six months, been transferred to the pauper class; and how many such cases are under consideration at the present time?
    Major TRYON: The hon. Member, no doubt, has in mind those cases for whom the temporary responsibility of my Department ceased, under the express terms of the Royal Warrant, on the 30th September last. There has been no change of policy since that date, but 313 appeals to the tribunal have been heard, of which 102 have been successful and 20 remain to be decided.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that each case has been treated on its merits?
    Major TRYON: That is so. I am glad to be able to assure the House that all these individual cases have been considered as separate cases on their merits, with a desire to admit them when the evidence allows.
    Mr. LANSBURY: What is the total number of transferred cases who remain paupers?
    Major TRYON: The hon. Member will find that if he works it out from the answer.
    Mr. COLLISONasked the Minister of Pensions the number of ex-service men now in lunatic asylums who served overseas?
    Major TRYON: The number of service patients at present in county or borough asylums for whose treatment and maintenance my Department accepts responsibility is 5,800. I regret that I could not say, without very considerable research, what proportion of these cases had overseas service.
    Mr. COLLISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say that if there had been no War these men would have been in lunatic asylums?
    Major TRYON: The only figure I can give to the hon. Member is, that when we examined one particular asylum we found that nearly half of the men whose disability had been accepted as due to military service had not been overseas.
    Mr. COLLISON: Is it not a fact that there are over 700 cases where you refuse to accept responsibility?
    Major TRYON: There are 700 cases which under the rules laid down by this House we are not allowed to touch.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Is it not the fact that if a man's disability, insanity or otherwise is due to service, whether overseas or at home, the State recognises responsibility?
    Major TRYON: Certainly. Of these 5,800 men for whom the State has accepted full responsibility a large proportion has never been overseas or seen any fighting at all.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Of the 700 men who are in asylums under the Poor Law guardians, has not a certain proportion served overseas?
    Major TRYON: That point is not raised in any way in this question.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

    ADVANCE PAYMENTS.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the great hardship caused to many pensioners by the discontinuance of the practice of making advances when delays occur in the re-issue of ring papers, and that the plan of issuing priority postcard after four days' delay does not meet the case; and, under these circumstances, will he revert to the old practice of allowing advances to be made by pension committees in all cases where the delay is in no way due to any fault of the pensioner?
    Major TRYON: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley on this subject on the 19th April last, of which I am sending him a copy. I would add that under the new system the priority postcard is sent at once, and not after four days' delay, as suggested in the first part of the question. I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion in the last part of the question.
    Mr. THOMSON: If the right hon. Gentleman can have cases brought to his notice showing that this hardship does continue, will he reconsider the matter?
    Major TRYON: I have this morning examined a list of the causes through which these delays occur, and by far the greatest cause of the delay is the failure of the ex-service men to send their life certificates. That difficulty is not touched by the hon. Member's suggestion. It will be a great relief when they are only required every six months instead of every three months.
    Mr. THOMSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter where the fault is in no way due to any mistake on the part of the pensioner, but due to mistakes on the part of his own officers?
    Major TRYON: No. The new system, which is being watched in its working, is a better one, and it was introduced in order to avoid the confusion and delay of recovering over-payments which arose under the old system.

    ASSESSMENT APPEALS.
    Mr. WARNEasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in the case of a man's successful appeal to the assessment appeal tribunal against an assessment of less than a year awarded more than 12 months before the appeal is heard, any additional compensation is given to the appellant; whether the setting aside of the award in these and similar cases is an indication that the original assessment was incorrect; whether, in making final awards, any difference is made in the amount of compensation given to men suffering the same percentage of disablement in cases of, temporary, less than a year, temporary, more than a year, and indeterminate duration; and, if there be any variation in the amount of compensation awarded under the three categories, whether he will issue instructions that in
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    those cases where the man is successful in getting an award set aside after the period embodied in the final award he shall receive compensation according to the scale appropriate?
    Major TRYON: I assume that the hon. Member has in mind cases in which the tribunal set aside a final award, and I would again point out that a decision of that nature does not of itself imply that the tribunal disagree with the assessment of disablement, but merely that in their opinion the case is not, at the time, suitable for a final decision. In the type of case mentioned in the first and last parts of the question, arrangements are at once made to have the man examined by a medical board, upon whose finding the grant of any further compensation would depend. The answer to the third part of the question is in the affirmative.

    ROYAL ENGINEERS (A. WELLS, WEDNESBURY).
    Mr. SHORTasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that A. Wells, No. 341074, Royal Engineers, residing at 71, Bridge Street, Wednesbury, is in receipt of a pension of 13s. 11d. per week; that he suffers acutely from some nervous disorder; that he has been unable to work since his discharge from a mental institution, and that since 4th July he has been bedfast; and, if so, will he cause inquiry as to whether this is a case for a full pension or special treatment, and full treatment allowances with suitable training?
    Major TRYON: Arrangements are being made for this man to be admitted to hospital for a course of treatment, during which treatment allowances will be paid.

    WOUND PENSION (C. J. CHOLDCROFT).
    Mr. ROBERT YOUNGasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that C. J. Choldcroft, 11 M, 314096, was wounded and discharged in 1914, and a pension granted to him; that, in addition to the wound for which he is pensioned, he complained to a medical board in 1921 of a wound in his leg, but was informed that there was nothing wrong; that he repeated his complaint on several occasions since 1921, but was not sent to hospital till February, 1923, when, after an X-ray examination, a piece of shrapnel was removed; whether, seeing that he has

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    again been examined, he will say with what result; and why has the report of this examination not been sent to him?
    Major TRYON: I can find no indication that the man made complaint as to the condition of his leg as stated in the second part of the question, but I may say that the medical board which examined him in December, 1921, reported that there was then no disablement from the injury to the right leg. The man was examined last month by a special medical board, upon whose recommendation a life pension at the 40 per cent. rate has been awarded to cover both the hand and leg injuries. The man has been informed.
    Mr. YOUNG: How does it come about that if there was nothing wrong with the leg two years ago, a piece of shrapnel could be removed two or three months ago?
    Major TRYON: I am not prepared to give an opinion on the medical question. I can imagine circumstances in which a man may become worse, and it seems to me that we should deal with it by treating the case on its merits at the date.

    DEPENDANTS' PENSIONS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that a pension was granted to Charles William Isles, of Ellison Street, Thorne, for the loss of his son, Robert Isles, on active service; that Charles William Isles died on the 12th August, 1922, leaving three children, aged 16, 13, and four years of age, respectively, all dependent upon him, and all potential dependants upon the deceased soldier; that application for transference of pension to children has been made and refused, and that the children are dependent upon charity; and will he see that the pension is now transferred to the children?
    Major TRYON: I have no authority to grant or to transfer pension in the circumstances stated.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the dependence is more pronounced to-day than it was when the father was living, and does he not think that Regulations ought to be brought into being so that these transfers can be made?
    Major TRYON: That would be an entire departure from the principle laid down by the House, and in the Royal Warrant.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does that answer imply that these children are to be pauperised because their father happened to have passed away before they are able to maintain themselves?
    Major TRYON: No; but in the case of the death of a pensioner, it has never been laid down that all the brothers and sisters shall be pensioned.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: How does the right hon. Gentleman expect these children to live, except by charity or pauperism?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not debate the matter now.

    FINAL AWARDS.
    Mr. TURNERasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that in the Yorkshire region a stereotyped form of letter is used in cases where the assessment appeal tribunal sets aside the final award, stating that as the medical board by whom the man has been examined reports that his condition has somewhat improved since he was previously examined the award previously notified fully compensates him and no further award can at present be made; whether this formula is used in all cases; and whether there is any record of any pensioner receiving a new award after the tribunal has set aside the final award?
    Major TRYON: The form of letter referred to is in general use in my Department for cases which, on reexamination by a Ministry medical board after the tribunal has set aside the final award, are found to be no worse than when the last assessment of disablement was made. A number of the cases examined after the final award has been set aside by the tribunal are found to have deteriorated and consequently receive further compensation.

    ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCE (G. F. GAMBLE).
    Captain ARTHUREVANSasked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that Mr. G. F. Gamble, of 199, Syston Street, Leicester, lost both his legs in the late War, and that he is consequently perfectly helpless; that his attendance allowance of 15s. per week was discontinued

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    after the 23rd January last because it was reported to the Ministry that he was able to do a great deal for himself, and it was considered that his condition no longer rendered it necessary for someone to be always in attendance, although he had lost both his legs; that, although his attendance allowance has now been reissued, at the rate of 10s. per week, it is insufficient to compensate those people who have to be in attendance; and if there is any reason, in view of his regrettable physical disability, that the full attendance allowance of £1 per week should not be paid as from the 23rd January, 1923?
    Major TRYON: I have personally gone into the facts of this case, and, in the opinion of my medical advisers, the present allowance of 10s. a week, which is paid, in addition to the maximum disablement pension, is adequate to the amount of assistance required.
    Captain EVANS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this man cannot perform the ordinary functions of daily life without assistance, and that the maximum dependance allowance a week for a man who has lost both legs is £1 a week? Is there any real reason why, because he may have done a few jobs, he should be deprived of 10s. a week on that account?
    Major TRYON: There never has been a flat rate of 20s. for everybody. The matter was carefully gone into by my officers, and they thought that 10s. was a suitable amount of compensation in addition to the £2 a week for total disablement.
    Captain BOWYER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this man has been supplied with an invalid chair?
    Major TRYON: Yes. He has a chair for use in the house, and a self-propelled tricycle for use outside.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: In addition to £2 10s. he is supplied with a chair and tricycle?
    Major TRYON: That is so.

    DISABLEMENT CLAIMS.
    Mr. FLANAGANasked the Minister of Pensions what is the number of officers and men who have made claims
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    in respect of disablement by War service, and the number who have succeeded in establishing their claims?
    Major TRYON: Slightly less than two million officers and men had made claims in respect of disablement up to the 31st March last. Of these over 1,600,000 claims, or approximately five out of every six claims have been established.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it the case that about two out of every five men who enlisted received compensation?
    Major TRYON: That figure is approximately correct. Out of every five men who enlisted about two received compensation in some form from the Government.

    MEDICAL AND SURGICAL TREATMENT.
    Captain BOWYERasked the Minister of Pensions how many officers and men disabled in the Great War have received medical or surgical treatment at the cost of his Department?
    Major TRYON: Approximately 1,500,000 courses of treatment have been provided by my Department for the officers and men who were disabled in the Great War.

    TUBERCULOSIS (M. R. MOSS).
    Mr. R. MORRISONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Mr. M. R. Moss, 18, Fryatt Road, Tottenham, has been in receipt of a pension for tuberculosis of the lungs attributed since 1915, and that his papers have recently been altered to aggravated on the plea that the Ministry made a clerical error in 1915, which has been continued until recently; and, in view of the fact that the man was not responsible for the error and the difficulty of establishing his claim after the lapse of so many years, will he reconsider the case and allow the decision of attributable to remain?
    Major TRYON: No Sir. This man's disability has always been regarded by the Ministry as only aggravated by service, and no change of entitlement has ever been made.
    Mr. MORRISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the statement made by his own Department, that the man has been paid for years on "attributed" and not "aggravated" at all?
    Major TRYON: My information is not to that effect. I understand that we called his attention to the fact that his case was classed as "aggravated," so that he might exercise his right of appeal. The man is, I understand, on 100 per cent. basis, so that at present it makes no difference in any way.
    Mr. MORRISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the man's attention was not called to this change in his position until later on, and that the Ministry itself admitted that it was a clerical error? Why deny it?
    Major TRYON: I am not denying it. The hon. Member is not entitled to make that statement. I am giving the facts as they were given to me this morning. I understand that the object of communicating with the man was to give him a chance of exercising his right of appeal which might otherwise lapse.
    Mr. MORRISON: Seeing that the man has been in receipt of 100 per cent. pension for six years "attributed," is it fair to put the onus on the man now?
    Major TRYON: I think that the hon. Member genuinely misunderstand the position. The man is in receipt of full treatment allowance and pension. His health is very bad. It was merely to give him a chance of appeal that he was given the information. Unfortunately his health is bad, and I cannot imagine that it will make any difference.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Did you, Sir, not give a ruling some time ago on the subject of individual cases being put to Ministers, from the point of view of saving the time of the House?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I declined to give a ruling.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: You made a suggestion?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I made the suggestion that Members might make more use of the unstarred questions.

    ANEURISM.
    Lord APSLEYasked the Minister of Pensions whether there is any time limit fixed at the end of which an ex-service man cannot sustain a claim for aneurism: and whether he is aware of cases in which this malady has escaped
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    diagnosis for years, with the result that the man loses his right to a pension owing to the failure of the medical boards to detect it?
    Major TRYON: Apart from the general provisions of Section 5 of the War Pensions Act, 1921, there is no time limit affecting a claim to compensation by a disabled man in respect of aneurism. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

    NEED PENSIONERS.
    Major CLIFTON BROWNasked the Minister of Pensions whether he has yet issued any instructions limiting the frequent re-investigation of the circumstances of need pensioners; if so, whether new awards of need pension will now be made for at least three years;and how far this principle will be applied to existing need pensions when the current award expires?
    Major TRYON: Instructions have now been issued under which all new awards of need pension will be made for a period of three years. As regards current awards I have arranged that when they next fall due for review they shall be renewed without re-investigation, for either one or two years, and that at the end of these periods they shall be investigated and if found admissible renewed for either two or three years. It will of course always be open to the pensioner to apply for an increased award, and similarly should a material change of circumstances come otherwise to notice the case will be re-investigated and the award suitably adjusted. This method enables me to ensure that the pensions are properly granted and at the same time to meet reasonably the demand for longer awards and freedom from inquiry with which I may say I have much sympathy.

    ENTITLEMENT (SPECIAL SCRUTINY).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether it has been decided to apply the special scrutiny of entitlement on appeal to the tribunal, provided for in paragraphs 5 and 6 of M.P.I. No. 225, only to awards of pension made by the Admiralty and War Office prior to the 15th February, 1917, which have been brought within the scope of the final awards Regulation by paragraph 2 (1) of the Amendment

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    Regulations, 1923; and whether, as these pensions have now been in force for six years, he can state why it is considered necessary to review entitlement in these cases?
    Major TRYON: The awards referred to were made before my Department was instituted and, as Minister of Pensions, I am bound generally to assure myself, where a final award is in question, that charges accruing in respect of disablement claimed to arise from war service, are properly due under the Warrants administered by me. I may add that it is Very doubtful if any such awards still remain to be reviewed.

    SPECIAL PAYMENTS.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the Pension Issue Office is now withdrawing special payments previously sanctioned to cover necessary expenses, such as insurance premiums and costs of storage of furniture where homes are temporarily broken up owing to the widow of an ex-service man having to go into a mental asylum; and will he give instructions for the more humane and sympathetic consideration previously given in such instances to be continued, and in any case see that these special payments are not made dependent upon the local board of guardians waiving part of their claim for the cost of maintenance of the widow?
    Major TRYON: Boards of Guardians have made repeated requests that in the circumstances mentioned payment should be made to the authority responsible for the widow's maintenance. This proposal was considered reasonable and was accepted by me last year. In all these cases, however, provision is made for the care of the children during the whole period of the widow's maintenance in the asylum and for the upkeep of the home for at least 13 weeks after admission, before any part of the pension is paid over. I may add that each case is given special consideration according to its individual circumstances.
    Mr. THOMSON: Why should the claim of the pensioner to special payments be dependent on the claims of the guardians for the maintenance of the widow?
    Major TRYON: If the hon. Member will read the answer, he will see that I have dealt with the point. If not, perhaps he will raise it again.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    PENSIONS ISSUE OFFICE.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is entirely satisfied with the site chosen for the Pensions Issue Office; and whether the health of the staff has benefited under the new conditions?
    Major TRYON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The health of the staff is satisfactory.

    CONTRACTS (HOME AND IMPERIAL PREFERENCE).
    Mr. COOPER RAWSONasked the Prime Minister whether it is the policy of any Department of His Majesty's Government to give a preference to goods manufactured in this country as against those manufactured abroad; and, if so, whether he will agree to the principle being generally adopted in all Government Departments in their purchases, with a view to relieving home trade and reducing unemployment?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks): As stated in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for the Wells Division of Somerset on the 31st May last, it is already the policy of His Majesty's Government that Government Departments should, in making contracts, give a preference to home and Imperial products over foreign products, whenever this is practicable and would not involve inordinate additional expenditure.
    Mr. H. H. SPENCER: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he means by the word "inordinate"?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Yes, it is beyond the "ordinate."
    Captain W. BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any decision of the House that permits Government Departments to spend public money except in the best market?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: All these things are subject to review by this House when the Estimates come up for discussion.
    Mr. PR INGLE: Are we to understand that in a Treasury sense expenditure is not wasteful only when it is inordinate?
    Sir H. BRITTAIIM: Is it necessarily wasteful expenditure when it employs British labour?

    STATE PRINTING WORKS, HARROW.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing the financial success of the State printing works at Harrow, he will recommend to His Majesty's Government that they buy a paper mill wherewith to supply the Stationery Office with paper?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The suggestion in the hon. Member's question will not be overlooked, but at present the Government has no intention of embarking on a venture of this kind.
    Mr. BECKER: Seeing the great success of these works, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of voting a little more money?

    ALIENS AWAITING DEPORTATION.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons other than Irish citizens were imprisoned without previously being charged before magistrates or other Courts of Justice during the years 1920, 1921, 1922, and 1923; and if he will inform the House under what Act of Parliament or official orders such persons were imprisoned without first being brought to trial?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridge-man): I am not aware of any powers existing during the years mentioned under which any persons were or could have been imprisoned without being previously charged before magistrates except those special emergency powers under which the persons referred to were dealt with or the power under the Aliens Order, 1920, in the case of aliens awaiting deportation. Under the latter power the numbers of persons detained for the years mentioned were: 1920, 37; 1921, 43; 1922, 24; 1923 (six months), 5.
    Captain BENN: Is any report made to the House of Commons showing how these powers have been exercised by the authorities?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Not that I am aware of.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary if he will state how long Toni Tollagearn Tjorn, a Swedish subject, was detained in prison previous to his discharge and deportation to Petrograd on 19th January, 1923; and what was the nature of the charges against this man?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: This man was in custody in this country from 14th October, 1922, when he arrived here on deportation from Australia, till 19th January, 1923, when arrangements could be completed for his journey to Russia, where he wished to go. I have no reason to think that he was a Swede. He had a Norwegian passport which did not belong to him. He was not prosecuted for carrying a false passport or for any other offence; but he could not be allowed to land here, and had to be detained in custody until the case (which was one of some difficulty) could be sufficiently cleared up to enable me to arrange for his removal.
    Mr. LANSBURY: May we take it that as this man was in custody he was being deported somewhere? What was the reason for the delay of three months, during which he was in one of our prisons?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Because he was deported from Australia—
    Mr. LANSBURY: Where to?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I imagine he was going to Russia, but he landed here, and we had to arrange with the country to which he was being deported to see if they would receive him.
    Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask whether any application was made to Russia to accept him, and whether it is the custom of the right hon. Gentleman's Department, under the Aliens' Act, to lay hands on anyone whom they think is suspect, and keep him in prison; because the other night the right hon. Gentleman told us that he did not do this sort of thing?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: This man landed here without any right to do so. He was deported from Australia, and ought to have gone on.
    Mr. LANSBURY: How could he go on? Why did you not let him go on?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am only anxious to let him go on.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Why did you stop him? It is sheer lunacy!
    Mr. SPEAKER: This is not a conversazione.

    ARREST ON SUSPICION (MR. MANNING).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary by whose authority Mr. Manning was arrested and detained in prison on Thursday, 12th July, at Poplar; what was the nature of this man's offence; what evidence was brought against him; what was the period of his detention; will he state the name of the magistrate before whom Mr. Manning was charged, and who ordered his release; and is it proposed to pay Mr. Manning compensation for false imprisonment?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Manning was arrested on 12th July in mistake for an alien of the same name who had been deported from this country in 1918. Though he denied this identification, he refused to give the police any address at which inquiry could be made. Afterwards, however, a friend produced his passport, from which it appeared that he was not the man supposed, and he was at once discharged from custody the morning after his arrest. So far as I can judge, he has no claim for compensation.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Have the police the right to arrest a man on suspicion without any warrant from a magistrate? Is it not the fact that the police were told that this man had a passport, and that the passport was produced the same evening, and the man was not discharged until next day.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That is adding a great deal more than is contained in the main question. When a man who had been deported, with no right to come to this country, came here, it was natural that a man of the same name should be arrested, and it was still more natural that he should be detained when he refused to give his address.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is not this a departure from the practice in this country that it is necessary for the police to prove a man guilty, and not for a man to prove that he is innocent?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: There has been no departure at all.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if the police have the right to take a man off the street and demand from him that he shall prove that he is not someone else? Have we come to that in this country simply because two or three people have been kept—[Interruption.]
    Mr. SHINWELL: Arising out of the last answer, may I ask whether any information was given to the police in regard to the man? If that information was incorrect, does the right hon. Gentleman propose to deal with those who supplied it?
    Captain BENN: May I ask whether it is a doctrine of the Home Office that it is natural that people of the same name, if the police do not happen to know who they are, should be arrested for each other?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: These questions had better be put down. The question of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) raises a good many new points, on which I should have to make inquiry.
    Mr. SHINWELL: May I have an answer to the point I have submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, whether he is going to deal with those who have furnished obviously incorrect information with regard to this man? Does he intend to deal with a situation such as that, which is prejudicial to all?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise. It should be put upon the Paper.

    MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT, 1919–22 (RETURN).
    Mr. MUIRasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that a Return has just been issued of the names, addresses, and constituencies of every Member who was elected to the Parliament of 1919–22; if this is a usual practice; what is the number of copies issued; what is the cost of the same; if he can state the reasons which, in the opinion of his Department, justify the further publication of this Return; and if, in view of the need for economy in non-essential things, he will consider the advisability of stopping this practice?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Yes, Sir; the Return has been issued in compliance with an Address from this House. It has been usual, for many years past, to publish such a Return after the close of a Parliament. 750 copies have been printed at a cost of £33 5s. 11d. The question of the continuance of the Return in the future is one for the House rather than for me to determine, but, having regard to the small cost involved and the importance for historical purposes of having an authoritative record, it seems desirable that it should be continued.
    Mr. STURROCK: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the information contained in that Return can be found in countless books of reference, available to every hon. Member of this House, and will he, in view of the fact that this Return costs a certain sum of money, show an example by having it discontinued?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: It is not for me, but for the House to decide a question like that.
    Mr. STURROCK: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to give the House an opportunity of discussing this matter?

    COVENT GARDEN THEATRE (EXIT FACILITIES).
    Mr. GILBERTasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the reports of the architect and chief officer of the fire brigade of the London County Council stating that the exit facilities of Covent Garden Theatre are far below the standard of the Council's theatre regulations; whether he is aware that the exits are constructed on the principle of combined exits, which is against all modern ideas; that the theatre contains inflammable scenery packed beneath the stage; and whether, in view of the importance of the matter for the safety of the public, he will compel the theatre authorities to carry out all necessary alterations; and, if so, will he consider as to using such powers forthwith?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: This is not a matter within my jurisdiction, and I have no power to take the action suggested by the hon. Member. I understand that the representations of the London County
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    Council have been brought to the notice of the Lord Chamberlain, who is taking up the matter with the leaseholders of the theatre.
    Sir JAMES REMNANT: In view of this question, which raises the point as to the safety of this theatre, may I ask whether it is not the fact that a very few years ago the London County Council demanded changes in this theatre to the cost of something like £40,000 or £50,000, which were carried out to the entire satisfaction of the County Council, and for which the theatre authorities got their thanks? Could not something be done to avoid these great outlays, due to the constantly changing regulations of the authorities?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I cannot answer that question offhand, but where questions of the public safety are concerned, I think we should be particularly careful.

    ELECTORAL REGISTER.
    Mr. REYNOLDSasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that no local elections are fought on the spring register and General Elections have lately been fought on the autumn register, he will consider the advisability of reverting to the old system of the preparation and publication of one register of voters each year instead of two, especially as this would mean a saving of approximately £1,000,000?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The question has already been very fully considered, and as I have stated previously the Government have decided not to take any steps in the matter. So far from the change effecting a saving of £1,000,000, as my hon. Friend suggests, the total saving, it is estimated, would not exceed £250,000 a year and might be less.

  TRANSPORT.

    MOTORISTS (INSURANCE AGAINST ACCIDENTS).
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the suggestion made by Judge Mellor in a Manchester Court last week that motorists should be compelled to insure against accidents in order to

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    enable them to meet their obligations when damages are assessed against them; and whether he can make a statement on the subject?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): I have been asked to answer this question. The question of compelling motorists to insure against accidents has been under consideration. There are practical and administrative difficulties in framing any satisfactory scheme which it has not been possible up to the present to overcome. The matter, however, will be further considered. Legislation would, of course, be required before any satisfactory proposals could be put into operation.

    TAXI-CABS (EFFICIENCY TEST).
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Home Secretary if he can give an estimate of the annual cost involved by the Commissioner of Police's new efficiency test for taxi-cabs; the number of additional inspectors required to carry out the tests; and whether the cost of the same will fall on the State?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No additional cost will be occasioned by the proposed test as the journey will include that already taken to test the accuracy of the taximeter. No additional staff will be required, and no cost will fall upon the State.

    MOTOR CAR ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that during last year there were 13,475 accidents in the Metropolitan area in which private motor cars were concerned, which means that private motor cars figure practically in one quarter of the accidents caused by all types of vehicles; that 57,000 accidents to persons or property in the streets of the London area last year were nearly 8,000 more than in the previous year; if he will consider whether a heavier penalty should be inflicted upon reckless drivers for the first offence; and whether, in the case of reckless drivers, to protect the public and other users of the highway, a punishment should be inflicted which will prevent them from driving motor vehicles in future?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have been asked to answer this question. I would refer
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    the hon. Member to the recommendations set out in paragraphs 115 to 119 and paragraph 213 of the Second Interim Report of the Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles. I am sending him a copy of these paragraphs. Any increase in penalties such as those suggested by the Committee would require legislation. As I have already stated, I am awaiting a favourable opportunity to introduce a Roads Vehicles Bill giving effect to many of the Committee's recommendations. I do not consider, however, that the increase in accidents referred to can be attributed to increased recklessness on the part of the drivers.
    Mr. W. THORNE: Will the right hon. Gentleman advise the Government in the most energetic way to bring forward legislation next Session to carry out the recommendations which have been made; and does he not think it time that Members of this House who are fined for reckless driving time after time, should have their licences taken away from them?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Anything I do officially is done with energy.
    Mr. POTTS: Have local authorities any power under existing Statutes to compel slow driving through their areas?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I do not think that question arises, but as a matter of fact speed limits have been imposed at the instance of local authorities and have been sanctioned by the Ministry of Transport and it is the duty of the local police to see that these regulations are observed.
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY: When will the Roads Bill be introduced—will it be during the Autumn Session?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I hope to make an announcement on this subject next week.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is there not a smaller number of accidents in London, in proportion to the population, than in any other great city of the world?
    Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: Is it not also the fact that it is very dangerous to walk about London at the present moment, owing to the excessive speed at which all motor cars and taxi-cabs travel; and is it intended to make the roads of this country available for express trains?

    TAXIMETER CABS, LONDON.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Home Secretary the number of two-cylinder taximeter cabs licensed in the London area; and what arrangements, if any, are being made to substitute a more effective form of cab in the place of those which fail to pass the efficiency test?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: There are 1,337 two-cylinder cabs at present licensed in the Metropolitan police district. If these are not, and cannot be made, effective, the owners have the opportunity to submit other types, of which several are available.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: In order to satisfy the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order!
    Mr. BECKER: When the question of the fitness of these two cylinder taximeter cabs is being considered, will he allow those which are in anything like good repair to be kept on, in view of the fact that many ex-soldiers have their money invested in them, and taking away the taximeter cabls means taking away their livelihood?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: That will be considered.

    PROBATION ORDERS.
    Sir ROBERT NEWMANasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider making special representations to those Courts which show a particularly low percentage of probation orders to cases, in order to impress upon such Courts the importance of an increased use of probation and the appointment of an adequate number of probation officers, in view of the fact that the mere general circularisation of all Courts has not produced a satisfactory result?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

    LEAD POISONING.
    Mr. W. THORNEasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the statement made by the Lambeth coroner in connection with the death of
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    John Man Lockerby, painter, at West Norwood, who died from lead poisoning; if he is aware that the coroner stated that something ought to be done to prohibit the ever-present danger of lead poisoning: and if he will take action in the matter?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have seen newspaper reports of the observations made by the coroner on this case, and these include a statement to the effect indicated in the question. The whole subject is receiving careful consideration, and I hope to be in a position to announce the decision of the Government at an early date.

    PRISON OFFICERS (PENSIONS).
    Mr. HAYESasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that many subordinate prison officers are being compulsorily retired at the age of 55 years before the pay question is settled; whether he will state the Act of Parliament and Section under which this compulsion is exercised; and whether there are higher officials over 60 years of age still in the service and who are not under notice to retire?
    Mr. BRIDGEMANUnder Section 10 of the Superannuation Act, 1859, as modified by Section 1 (1) (a) of the Superannuation (Prison Officers) Act,1919, a subordinate prison officer may retire on pension at the age of 55. The Order in Council of the 11th March, 1920, provides that such officers must retire at the age of 60, and can be called on to retire by the Head of their Department at any time after reaching the pensionable age of 55. The higher officials to whom reference is made cannot earn a pension until they are 60. They have to retire at 65 and can be called on to retire at any time after reaching 60. The privilege of earning a pension at the age of 55, granted to prison officers by the new Act, carries with it, as in the case of higher officers, the corresponding liability to be called on to retire at any time after pensionable age has been reached. A few subordinate officers have been called on to retire after having earned a pension and before reaching the age of 60, but not unless, after careful consideration, the officer was found to be no longer efficient for the discharge of his official duties.

    POLICE SERVICE COMMITTEE.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Home Secretary the names of the Members and the terms of reference of the Committee to review the conditions of service in the police of England, Scotland, and Wales?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am glad to say that all the members of the previous Committee, presided over by Lord Desborough, have agreed to serve again. I will circulate the names and terms of reference in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. HAYES: Will the terms of reference provide for the taking of evidence from the service by the Committee before they submit their report, reviewing the decisions of another Committee, which was based on evidence from the service?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: It is not a matter of the terms of reference. The Committee will, of course, have to decide what evidence they will take.
    Mr. HAYES: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect the undertaking he gave, that nothing would be done until evidence had been taken from the service?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not remember that.
    Following are the names of the Committee, and the terms of reference:
    MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE.

    The Lord Desborough, G.C.V.O. (Chairman);

    Sir Francis Blake, Bt., C.B.;

    The Lord Gorell, C.B.E., M.C.;

    The right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir Henry Craik);

    The hon. and gallant Member for the South-Eastern Division of Leeds (Captain O'Grady);

    The hon. Member for the Holborn Division (Sir James Remnant); and

    The hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton).

    TERMS OF REFERENCE.
    To consider and report whether any, and if so what, readjustments should be made in the standard conditions of service of the police forces in Great Britain, having regard to the experience now gained of the practical application of the recommendations
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    contained in the Reports of the Committee presided over by Lord Desborough, dated the 1st July, 1919, and the 1st January, 1920, and to the change in economic conditions since those Reports were made.
    And in particular to report upon—

    (1) the scale of pay to be given to new entrants to the police service;

    (2) the question of the adoption of an age limit to qualify for retirement on pension without medical certificate; and

    (3) the amount of the rateable deductions towards pensions.

    CHIEF CONSTABLE, CANTERBURY.
    Mr. HAYESasked the Home Secretary whether his approval has been given to the appointment of an ex-Royal Irish Constabulary officer to the chief constableship of Canterbury; and whether he is aware that this appointment has been made despite applications for the post from highly trained police officers in Great Britain?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have received the application from the Watch Committee for my approval of their appointment, and I have given my approval. I have no information as to the qualifications of the unsuccessful candidates.
    Mr. HAYES: Is it not contrary to the spirit of the recommendations of the Desborough Report to appoint officers from outside the service in this country to the highest posts, as there is an absence of incentive to the lower officers to make themselves thoroughly efficient?

  EDUCATION.

    CERTIFICATED TEACHERS.
    Mr. HILLasked the President of the Board of Education how many teachers will have completed their college training this month; how many fully-certificated teachers will now be unemployed; and will he agree that in future only certificated teachers shall be engaged?
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY (for Mr. Edward Wood): The number of students in training colleges who will complete

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    their course of training this month is approximately 7,680. With regard to the second part of the question, my right hon. Friend regrets he has no information; and he is not prepared to make the requirement suggested in the third part.
    Mr. R. DAVIES: Is the Noble Lord aware that local education authorities are employing uncertificated teachers, while thousands of certified teachers are unemployed; will he see that the local authorities are encouraged to do the right thing in this connection?
    Lord E. PERCY: I am perfectly aware of the fact that this subject has been frequently debated in this House, and I do not think this is the occasion for a further debate.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: What steps have the Board of Education taken to absorb these teachers?
    Lord E. PERCY: That is only another way of putting a question which, as I say, has been frequently debated. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"]

    TEACHERS' REGISTRATION COUNCIL.
    Mr. HILLasked the President of the Board of Education if he is prepared to advise his Department to grant official recognition to the Teachers' Registration Council?
    Lord E. PERCY: The Teachers' Registration Council is a statutory body set up under Section 16 of the Education (Administrative Provisions), Act, 1907; and is recognised by the Board as such.

    NECESSITOUS SCHOOL CHILDREN, BARROW.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been drawn to a decision of the] Barrow Education Committee not to provide meals for necessitous school children when the family income is 38s. per week; and if proposals to impose an income test in this regard without reference to the size of the family have the approval of the Board?
    Lord E. PERCY: My right hon. Friend understands that the family income limit of 38s. per week applies to a family of two parents and four children, and that the Barrow-in-Furness Local Education Authority propose to deal with each case
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    of larger families on its merits. In reply to the latter part of the question, my right hon. Friend would not be prepared to approve of an income test which did not take into account the size of the family.

    SECONDARY SCHOOLS (STAFFING).
    Mr. G. WHITEasked the President of the Board of Education if it is the policy of the Board to reduce the staffs of grant-aided secondary schools?
    Lord E. PERCY: My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the staffing of secondary schools is not generally excessive, but there may be cases in which reduction of staff would be reasonable.

    TEACHERS (WAR SERVICE).
    Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that Circular 1,244, giving the Board's rulings on the subject of the recognition of War service for the purpose of calculating correct salaries for secondary schoolteachers, was not issued until 28th January, 1922; and that his Department has recently been applying its rules to salaries paid by local education authorities during the period 1st September,1920, to 31st March, 1921; and whether, inasmuch as the authorities when they made the payments had no indication of what the Board's policy was on these matters of detail, he will be prepared to recognise all bona fide payments made up to the date of the circular as ranking for recognition in the calculation of grant?
    Lord E. PERCY: The circular in question was issued at the earliest possible date—the 20th January, 1922. My right hon. Friend has, generally speaking, no authority to recognise for the calculation of grant expenditure in excess of the limits laid down in that circular at whatever date it may have been incurred. He is, of course, prepared to consider any cases in which it may appear that the terms of the circular have been wrongly applied.
    Mr. EDE: Does the Noble Lord realise that the answer given and the practice that it represents makes it almost impossible to carry on local government when his Board attempt to apply circulars retrospectively to expenditure now nearly three years old?
    Lord E. PERCY: No, I am not aware of anything of the kind. I have been through the cases that occurred in the hon. Member's area, and I should like to emphasise the answer to the question that my right hon. Friend is prepared to consider any cases where this circular may have been wrongly applied.

    GREECE AND TURKEY.
    Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAYasked the Prime Minister if he will lay before Parliament the papers relative to the events leading up to the Greek defeat in Asia Minor and the fall of Smyrna last year; and to the negotiations with the Turkish Nationalist authorities in September?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The question whether correspondence on this subject should be laid has been carefully considered. His Majesty's Government earnestly hope that with the conclusion of definite peace between Greece and Turkey, now happily assured, the feeling of animosity and bitterness between the two peoples will abate and finally disappear. From this point of view, His Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that it would be highly impolitic now to lay papers concerning past controversies the publication of which can in the circumstances serve no useful purpose.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is it not in accordance with the constitutional practice of Parliament that papers of this description should be laid, and can the Government give any reason why they have not been laid in this instance?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I have given the reason.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these papers were originally refused because peace had not been concluded, and now they are being refused because peace has been concluded; and is it not altogether contrary to the practice of Parliament that papers dealing with great public transactions of this kind should not be laid for the purpose of enabling the House and the country to judge?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I cannot add anything to the answer I have given.
    Mr. PRINGLE: We will raise this matter on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
    Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the late Prime Minister said he was perfectly prepared to consider the question of laying the papers when peace had been concluded?
    Captain Viscount CURZON: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask him what these matters between Greece and Turkey can possibly have to do with us?
    Mr. PRINGLE: We want to know who is responsible. Lord Curzon was in it, too, and that is why you are afraid.

  AIRSHIP DEVELOPMENT.

    COMMERCIAL SERVICES.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement as to the Imperial Airship Scheme; and can he state by which Department the scheme will be controlled?
    Mr. WELLSasked the Secretary of State for Air, in view of the unemployment in Bedford, if he is in a position to make an announcement with regard to the negotiations respecting the proposed Imperial Airship Company, which company, it is anticipated, is to take over Cardington Aerodrome?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Lieut.-Colonel Sir Samuel Hoare): I have been asked to reply. The question of the development of airships has recently been considered by the Committee of Imperial Defence and the Imperial Shipping Committee. The Committee of Imperial Defence attaches considerable strategic value to airships, whilst the Imperial Shipping Committee considers that it is by means of an airship service that the carriage of mails can most cheaply be expedited to the Far East and Australia. The Government have, therefore, decided to resume the development of airships and to proceed, if possible, by means of a commercial service rather than by State operation.
    Proposals have been placed before them by the hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Lieut.-Commander Burney)

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    under which a bi-weekly service of six large airships to India will eventually be set up. The Government have accepted the scheme in principle, subject to the details of the contract being satisfactorily settled by the Treasury. The House of Commons will have an opportunity of considering the scheme when the details have been provisionally agreed.
    The Dominions are being informed of this decision, and it is hoped to discuss the question at the Imperial Conference with a view to their co-operation in the scheme.
    The administration of the scheme in so far as it is a matter of commercial aviation will come under the Air Ministry.
    Mr. WELLS: Is the matter likely to be settled before the winter?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am afraid that a matter of this kind must take some time. We are very anxious to press it through as quickly as we can. My hon. Friend's particular anxiety in the scheme, as shown in Question 64, is being kept in mind.
    Viscount CURZON: Will the airships included in this scheme revert to the Forces in time of war?
    Sir S. HOARE: That point will certainly be kept in mind.

    ESTABLISHMENTS (COMMITTEE'S REPORT).
    Brigadier-General SPEARSasked the Prime Minister whether, when the Army Council has fully considered the Report of Lord Weir's Committee on Establishments, he will consider publishing those portions of the Report which contain recommendations as to the possibility of effecting economies in administration, in view of the great interest taken in the matter by this House?
    Mr. PRINGLEasked the Prime Minister whether he can give an assurance that all recommendations of Lord Weir's Committee on Establishments dealing with economies in administration will ultimately be laid before the House, in order that the House may have the advantage of this information in consider-
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    ing the proposals to be put forward by the Army Council as a result of their consideration of this Report?
    Mr. A. M. SAMUELasked the Prime Minister whether he will be able to publish the Report of Lord Weir's Committee on Establishments before the end of the present year?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have nothing to add to the replies which have already been given on this subject.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement on this subject before the House rises? Is he aware that there is a great deal of public interest as to this Report, because it is generally believed that the Department is not carrying out the economies proposed?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I expect to spend such holiday as I can get going through the Estimates for the next year, and I shall do so in the light of this Report.
    Mr. LAWSON: Will the House have the opportunity of discussing the recommendations before action be taken?

    COST OF LIVING (INDEX FIGURE).
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURYasked the Prime Minister, considering the widespread feeling that the index figure does not truly represent the present cost of living, if he will take into consideration the setting up of a Select Committee to report on this question?
    Mr. FLANAGANasked the Minister of Labour if, in view of the dissatisfaction generally expressed at the cost-of-living figures, he will consider the advisability of adopting a new system of arriving at these figures which will generate more confidence?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I am not prepared to admit that dissatisfaction with the cost-of-living index figure is general. With regard to the proposal to hold an inquiry, I would invite the attention of the hon. Members to the reply given on the 4th July to questions on this subject asked

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    by the hon. Members for Plaistow and Whitechapel (of which I am sending the hon. Members copies), and to the reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith on the 18th July.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: Is my hon. Friend aware that the primary cost of living for the working class is food; and, if he would go round the retail shops in our different constituencies, he would find that the cost of food to-day is 100 per cent. over pre-War?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I am aware of the importance of the cost-of-living figures, but not of the general dissatisfaction. The whole of this matter was dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour in an answer about 10 days ago, and if my hon. and gallant Friend will look at that answer, he will, I think, find an answer to his question.
    Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: May I remind the hon. Gentleman of the statement given by his right hon. Friend to the "Manchester Evening Chronicle," which was turned down as being quite absurd?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that one of the reasons for certain disputes that are now taking place is in regard to the figures of the cost of living, and will he not do something to bring about a readjustment in accordance with existing conditions?
    Mr. BETTERTON: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the answer of my right hon. Friend to which I have just referred, he will see that my right hon. Friend had that point in his mind.

    TURKEY (IRAQ FRONTIER).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Prime Minister whether the peace terms with Turkey include a settlement of the frontiers of Iraq; and what steps are being taken to settle these frontiers?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Article 3 (2) of the Treaty with Turkey lays down that the frontier between Turkey and Iraq is to be determined by a friendly arrangement between Turkey and Great Britain within nine months. This period will begin to run after the evacuation of Con-
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    stantinople is complete, that is to say at the end of six weeks after ratification of the Treaty by Turkey. Failing agreement between the two Governments, the decision will rest with the League of Nations. Both Governments agree reciprocally that until this decision has been reached, no military or other movement shall be undertaken of a character to modify the "status quo."
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: When is it intended to bring the Treaty before the House? May I respectfully ask the question?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: My answer is that I cannot tell the hon. and gallant Member.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Is it decided that we shall accept the decision of the League?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Oh, yes, I think I have said that in my answer.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS (DURATION OF SPEECHES).
    Mr. COOPER RAWSONasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider setting up a committee to consider provisions for limiting the duration of speeches of private Members, as is done in the London County Council and other bodies, in view of the waste of time now experienced both in the House and in committees by irrelevant, lengthy, and/or obstructive speeches?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: Provisions of the kind suggested have been frequently discussed, but have not hitherto met with much support. In these circumstances, my right hon. Friend hardly thinks that my hon. Friend's suggestion would serve any good purpose, but if it be desired to ascertain the view of the House, the subject is one which might usefully be discussed on a ballot Motion during the next Session.

  IRELAND.

    BOUNDARY COMMISSION.
    Sir EDWIN STOCKTONasked the Prime Minister if he can now make a statement as to the position of the controversy with regard to the delimitation of the boundary between Northern and Southern Ireland; and what is the posi-

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    tion occupied by the British Government in the face of the refusal by Ulster to co-operate in delimitation?
    Mr. MOSLEYasked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the Free State Government has requested His Majesty's Government to set up the Boundary Commission under Article 12 of the Treaty, and has appointed a representative on this Commission, and that the Government of Northern Ireland has refused to participate in this Commission, he will say whether, in the absence of a representative from the Government of Northern Ireland, the Commission can function; and, if not, what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take to implement the pledges given to the Free State Government?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: This matter has been the subject of despatches between the Governor-General of the Irish Free State and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and these despatches will be laid on the Table of the House this week.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say that both the Free State and His Majesty's Government are prepared to appoint representatives and that the Government of Northern Ireland has refused?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I would suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he should wait till he reads the despatches.
    Captain BENN: Can the Home Secretary say whether the Government intend to set up a Commission according to the Treaty?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No, Sir. I cannot answer further questions until the House has had an opportunity of reading the despatches.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Could not the right hon. Gentleman give a coherent account in two sentences?

    FREE STATE (FINANCIAL POSITION).
    Colonel GRETTONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the White Paper setting out the financial position as between the British Government and the Free State Government will be presented before the House rises in August, in view of the fact that all the information necessary for compiling such a Paper is in the possession of the Treasury?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer is in the affirmative.
    Colonel GRETTON: When may we expect the Paper?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I hope on Monday or Tuesday next.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    HELICOPTER.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can report any further progress with the helicopter design of flying machine?
    Sir S. HOARE: Progress has been made with the necessary indoor trials and it is hoped that it will be possible to undertake the outdoor trials at an early date.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:Has the attention of the Secretary of State been drawn to the successful experiments made with this helicopter, and have we any means of getting information about it?
    Sir S. HOARE: The experiments with this machine in France are certainly very interesting, but I do not know that we have any means of getting special information.

    ITALY.
    Captain W. BENNasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has information indicating that the Italian Government has decided to set up a separate Air Service?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, Sir. The Royal Italian Air Service was, by Royal Decree of the 28th March, last, constituted as a separate service, comprising all the naval and military aerial forces of the Kingdom of Italy and its colonies. The High Commissariat for Aeronautics, with Signor Mussolini as High Cmmissioner, has been established as the supreme authority for aeronautics.

    GOTHENBURG EXHIBITION (AVIATION SECTION).
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can inform the House as to the result of the aviation section of the Go then burg Exhibition; and whether he proposes to make a flying visit to the exhibition in away which will illustrate the advantages of this method of transit?
    Sir S. HOARE: As regards the first part of the question, the Director of Civil Aviation, who returned by air from Gothenburg yesterday, reports that the British aviation section of the Gothenburg Exhibition has proved very successful and has received considerable attention at the exhibition. As regards the latter part, I hope myself to visit Gothenburg and propose to travel there by air in a British civil machine on the 5th August.

    ARGENTINE DEBT.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the amount due to the Treasury from the Republic of Argentina on account of the exchange difference between the sum of 50 million dollars, advanced by this country on account of the Argentine debt to the United States, and the amount repaid at par by the Argentine Government in January, 1921; and when, and in what form, this amount will be credited to the Treasury?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The amount due (as on the 15th June) is 16,243,957 Argentine gold pesos 42 cents. (equivalent to about £2,775,000). The sum due to the Treasury by the Argentine Government will be set-off against a debt of slightly smaller amount due to the Argentine Government by the Treasury-representing the balance of the loan made to this country by the Argentine and the surplus will be paid into the Exchequer. Pending the conclusion of negotiations which are now proceeding between the two Governments, I am unable to say when the accounts will be finally cleared.

    HOUSE PROPERTY (INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS).
    Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that certain inspectors of taxes are charging Income Tax upon theoretical rentals that are substantially higher than the actual rentals paid and disregard proof that that is so; and whether he will give instructions that the practice shall be discontinued?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given
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    to the hon. Member for the Bosworth Division of Leicester on the 24th July. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of that reply from which he will see that while in the case of properties let at a rack-rent fixed by agreement within the preceding seven years, the annual value is by law fixed at the amount of the rent, in other cases when property is not let at a rack-rent so fixed, it is necessary under the law to ascertain the rack-rent at which the property is worth to be let by the year. The rack-rental value in these cases would often be in excess or the actual rent and often has so been in the past.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware, in connection with the quinquennial Schedule A valuation, that inspectors of taxes are refusing to allow inspection or comparison of assessments except as regards the person's own individual assessment, notwithstanding the terms of the church-door notice No. 90 N.A. pursuant to Section 134a of the Income Tax Act, 1918, which provides that assessments can be inspected by any person assessed therein or by any owner or other person in respect of rents of any lands included in such assessments under Schedule A, although he is not the owner thereof; and whether he will take steps to see that the public are allowed to receive the contemplated facilities to inspect assessments comparable to their own and in the immediate vicinity?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford on the 28th May. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of that reply.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the people are not able to get the assessments of adjoining houses which he said would be the basis on which they could assure themselves that they would be correctly assessed, and how does he propose to deal with this difficulty?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The best way to find out is to ascertain what the adjoining houses are let for.
    Sir W. DAVISON: Why should there be anything confidential about the tenants of a row of houses knowing what their next door neighbours are paying?

    BANK RATE.
    Mr. POTTSasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether bank rate changes in this country are made by the Governors of the Bank of England; if so, whether a special meeting of the governors has to be called for that particular purpose; can such bank rate change be made by the chief governor, or is it essential for a quorum of governors to be present; and, if so, how many governors form a quorum to transact such bank rate change?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The ordinary rate at which the Bank of England lends—commonly known as bank rate—is fixed from time to time by the Court of Directors at their weekly meeting, which is usually fully attended.
    Mr. POTTS: What I want to know is how many governors form a quorum to fix the bank rate?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: There are 24 directors, in addition to the governor and the deputy-governor, and I am informed that the average attendance is over 20.

    PUBLIC WORKS LOAN (EPSOM).
    Mr. EDEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Epsom urban district council borrowed £6,750 from the Public Works Loans Commissioners in September, 1919, at 5½ per centum interest or such other rate as may be fixed by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury on the sum of £6,750 or on such part thereof as shall for the time being remain unpaid; that on various dates in 1920 and 1921 the same council borrowed further sums totalling £34,000 at 6 per centum, but subject to the same variation; that by Order No. 67,497 the rate of interest on all these loans was increased from 17th June, 1922, to 6½ per centum; that Order No. 68,057 of 5th December, 1922, revokes previous Orders and fixes the interest for new loans at the rate of 5 per centum; that Order No. 68,057, while revoking Orders Nos. 67,497 (which authorised an increase in the rate to 6 per centum) and 67,497, does not authorise the reduction of the rate of interest on the loans whose rate of interest was increased by those Orders; that the last demand for interest was made at the rate of 6½ per centum on 2nd July, 1923; and whether, inasmuch as
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    the Epsom and other urban district councils had to follow the market while the rate of interest was advancing, he will allow them to follow it now that the rate of interest has been reduced?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The facts are generally as stated by the hon. Member though the Orders quoted do not relate to the loans he has in mind. The loans in question were made at a time when it was not possible to fix the final rate, and it was agreed between the local authority and the Commissioners that the rate should be finally settled when the market rate could be more accurately ascertained. I am communicating further with the hon. Member on this matter.
    Mr. EDE: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is fair that as this local authority had to follow the rate of interest when it went up they should now be debarred from following it when it is going down?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: If the hon. Gentleman will read my answer he will find that there was an agreement that the rate should be finally fixed after the date of the loan and that was finally done with the assent of the local authority about two years afterwards.
    Mr. EDE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the agreement was in the form set forth in my question?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have gone fully into the matter and I have prepared a letter which is too long to read to the House, but I will send it on to the hon. Member.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD: Can the Home Secretary inform the House what business the Government propose to take next week?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN: On Monday we shall take the Lords Amendments to the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Bill, the Agricultural Credits Bill and to any other Bills; the Report Stage and Third Reading of the Town Councils (Scotland) Bill [Lords]; and the Second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill [Lords].
On Tuesday and Wednesday, the Second and Third Readings of the Appropriation Bill;
On Thursday, the motion for the adjournment until Tuesday, 13th November.
Mr. PRINGLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman not mean the Agricultural Rates Bill?
Mr. BRIDGEMAN: No. The Lords Amendments to the Agricultural Credits Bill.

PERFORMING ANIMALS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 208.]

SUMMARY JURISDICTION (SEPARATION AND MAINTENANCE) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee D.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 207.]

BILLS REPORTED.
Bournemouth-Swanage Motor Road and Ferry Bill [Lords],
Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [Lords],
West Hartlepool Corporation Bill [Lords],
West Somerset Mineral Railway (Abandonment) Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—

Public Works Loans Bill, without Amendment.

Barnsley Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—

Mid Kent Water Bill [Lords],

Felixstowe Dock and Railway Bill [Lords],

West Bromwich Corporation Bill [Lords],

London, Midland, and Scottish Railway Bill [Lords],

Southern Railway Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [20th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Resolution [18th July] reported,

  SUPPLY.
    CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

      CLASS II.
      "That a sum, not exceeding £262,548, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Subordinate Departments, including certain Services arising out of the War and Grants-in-Aid."
      Resolution read a Second time.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
      Sir ALFRED MOND: I owe no apology to the House for commencing a further discussion to-day of the extremely important question of the position of our trade and the contribution that was made to this subject by the President of the Board of Trade in his speech of the 18th July last. I think that everyone who has any knowledge of business affairs feels a certain amount of disquietude and discouragement from the fact that what appeared some months ago to be a wave of prosperity and the return of more normal conditions has received a check, and those who are well qualified to speak on this subject have some apprehension as to what is going to happen within the next few months and the coming winter. Therefore there is no subject to which this House can address itself to with more seriousness and better effect than the question of our trade position. I do not propose to go into departmental details, but I will confine my remarks more to the general aspect of our position and what steps, if any, can be taken to improve the conditions as they exist to-day.
      The right hon. Gentleman, in a speech he made the other day, pointed out that we had had a setback at the beginning of the year in our export trade. It was anticipated, at the time we had a change of Government, that the coming into
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      office of that stable, peaceful and tranquil body would improve trade conditions. It is only a melancholy satisfaction to those who did not entertain those anticipations now to realise that these results had not taken place. It is somewhat difficult on this subject for people outside to understand what is the immediate function of my right hon. Friend, and for what he is responsible. It is quite impossible to review the trade position without taking a wide view. Of course, I do not hold him responsible for what I may consider the errors of his colleagues, but still he has a joint responsibility. The main reason for the diminution of our trade to-day is to be found in the condition of foreign affairs in Europe, and especially in the position in the Ruhr, and I think it would be of great advantage to this country if some more authoritative opinion could be expressed by the right hon. Gentleman's Department as to the actual result on British trade of the French occupation of the Ruhr. I am inclined to share my right hon. Friend's view—indeed, I do not think it would be seriously contested in any quarter—that if into the network of commerce one introduces a violent disturbance, although it may benefit some particular body, the world trade, as a whole, must suffer. There is a great difference of opinion, even among those able men of business whose judgment I respect, and who take the view that the effects of these events are very much exaggerated. It seems to me it would be a very good thing if the right hon. Gentleman would prepare some memorandum, to be issued to the Press if the House is not sitting, of the character I have suggested, because it would give greater confidence to those interested in trade.
      It would not be right on this Vote to go into the question of the Ruhr, which was to have been debated to-day from the Foreign Office point of view, and I do not therefore propose to enter upon that subject, except to say that I must confess to feeling some disappointment that more energetic action has not been taken in order to reach a final agreement on this subject with those with whom we are co-operating. Those who deal with these matters at the Foreign Office have nothing to do with trade. One result is that time appears to them to be absolutely no object. Negotiations proceed in leisurely fashion, the Ambassadors visit

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      each other, people go on holidays, and in the meantime the ruin is growing fast day by day. Take, for instance, the rate of exchange in Germany at the time the Note was issued on 7th June, compare it with the position to-day and see what a kaleidoscopic change has resulted while we have been discussing with our Allies the reply. Such a situation cannot go on. As every engineer knows, there is a point at which any material, however lasting, will snap, and economics are in a similar position. At the present time something urgent needs to be done, although it is difficult, of course, with the imperfect knowledge which we have, to suggest exactly what that action should be. Undoubtedly the whole situation—the whole European situation—is causing great damage to the trade and industry of this country. As soon as a political disturbance occurs it is reflected in trade, and what has been happening in the City of London during the last two or three weeks proves that, as promotions have been at an absolute standstill owing to a want of confidence and very often to a somewhat exaggerated idea that diplomatic Notes and discussions between the Allies must necessarily lead to very grave results. When my right hon. Friend says he is told by the manufacturers and bankers that orders are not coming in and that trade is slowing down it must be realised that undoubtedly one of the most serious factors in bringing about that result is the position of affairs in Europe. Of course, we have only a certain amount of control over Europe, but I hope more energy and determination will be shown than has been shown in the last few months. We are not the sole arbiters of what may happen in this respect, but one naturally turns to see whether, in the present state of affairs, there are not other steps that ought to be taken—steps which can be taken and which are under our control in order to benefit trade and industry and to reduce that vast burden of unemployment, the shadow of which has overhung us like a leaden pall for so many years.
      4.0 P.M.
      I confess I was disappointed and could not possibly agree with the statement the right hon. Gentleman made as to what he considered should be our attitude towards trade with Russia. I hold no brief for the Soviet Government. I have no interests in Russia, and I wish to see
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      Great Britain get what business it can. From the information which reaches me from reliable sources of different kinds the markets of Russia are reopening for manufactured goods of all kinds, and, as far as I can gather, Great Britain is getting a very small share of that business in comparison with more energetic competitors from other countries, especially America. The right hon. Gentleman, in a speech he made the other day, when challenged on this subject, uttered the following observation:
      "Suppose that I did to-morrow put the whole benefit of the export credits machinery before English traders to assist them in their Russian credit, would one of them take advantage of it? The export credit system is that the British Government take part of the risks with a firm. The firm does not come forward with a proposition that it should share in the risk unless the firm is satisfied that there is good security that the person with whom it deals is going to meet his obligations. I do not believe that, even if I was prepared at this moment to open either that or any other machinery of credit for dealing with Russia it would be of any use until those conditions had been re-established which are necessary for all sound business."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th July 1923; col. 2396, Vol. 166.]
      I think the right hon. Gentleman overlooks one fact, and that is the psychological effect of a Government Department either assisting or not assisting trade with a certain country. The mere fact that his Department refuses to treat Russian trade as it does other trade influences quite a considerable number of people in forming the conclusion that it is quite impossible to do any trade with Russia at all. They say, "If the Government, which is better informed than we are, has come to this conclusion, it is not worth our while even to investigate." Obviously, one of the difficulties of a private firm wanting to do any trade with Russia is the difficulty of obtaining such information as the right hon. Gentleman can obtain from our trade delegation in Moscow. Therefore, his statement is not really the fact. I know of cases in which the argument I am adducing has had enormous weight. You may be prepared to take a certain risk yourself, but you may not be prepared to take the whole risk yourself. Therefore, the fact that the Government comes in to some extent under an export credits scheme or a trade facilities scheme does assist trade of that kind to be reestablished. The mere feeling that the

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      British Government has a trade delegation at Moscow has a very considerable influence, because, if they are at the back of the trader, he feels, naturally, more secure than if he has nothing at his back at all. I have had put in my hand papers of an absolutely authoritative character on this very point. The information put before me by an important organisation is that:
      "Several contracts have come before our notice during the past few months which indicate that the belief of the President of the Board of Trade is not well founded, but on the same day that this speech was made a particular instance came to our notice in which British firms were willing to take their fair share of the risks to which he refers in order to bring to this country a large power station contract of the value of over £2,000,000 which would provide a great deal of employment now and would continue to do so from developments and replacements in the future. The chance of bringing these contracts to this country has been jeopardised by the absence of Government support to the firms concerned, such as is afforded by other Governments to firms in their countries tendering for these contracts."
      I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman has the details of this contract. I have not got them myself. There you have one large contract which certainly might have been secured, and which would have been of assistance. I think it is a mistake to endeavour to mix up what I might call the diplomatic and Foreign Office side of the question with the trade side of the question. I have always felt that it is almost a pity that the Trade Delegation at Moscow is not under the Department of my right hon. Friend instead of the Foreign Office, because I have never found that business and diplomacy mingle well together. Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will further investigate this question. I have myself only lately realised that there is a considerable growing market in Russia, where conditions have changed very much in the last 12 months. I hope he will not allow our chances of trade to be jeopardised, because this question has lately got mixed up with political questions, such as recognition.
      There is another market of great importance to this country which also is suffering, and I am afraid is suffering very much, owing to disturbed conditions, and that is China. I was informed the other day by one of our representa-
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      fives in China that he had never known the country in such a bad condition. There, again, it is impossible to say how much a Government can help or not help in assisting conditions. It is a question on which I would not like to dogmatise, but I do think that information ought to be collected to see whether there is any power or authority which the British Government possess, owing to their many years of straight dealing with foreign countries and their great prestige, and which they could use to get conditions improved. It would be a great thing, particularly to the textile industry—because China is one of the greatest consuming centres, much more important than some of those small European States about which we hear so much—if we could bring about better conditions there.
      Let us turn from the export trade to a problem to which my right hon. Friend referred, and in which he and I were jointly interested, and which we have much more under our own control. I have been for some time an advocate of that Empire development which has become very fashionable today, but I must confess that I was disappointed at the amount of support one got in cash, and I am informed that the situation has not much changed since I left office. Over two years ago I advocated that the British Government should boldly come out with a loan in order to finance the Crown Colonies and, if necessary, some of the Dominions. If you rely merely on the amount of credit that these countries can get on their present development, it is obvious that the rate of progress must be extremely slow. The one thing that we in this country do maintain is a good national credit. It is one of the great assets that we have got. It is an extraordinary paradox that, though you have Members getting up in this House and poining to Germany and saying, "Look at bankrupt Germany," yet there is no unemployment there: new factories, new hydro-electric works, and new canals are being built. I was myself in Germany last year, and I was struck with the same fact. Two-thirds of the Bavarian State railways are to be electrified next year. When I said to the Germans, "You are bankrupt," they replied," Certainly, but we are just going on." When they have finished they will have their fac-

      759
      tories and cheap power and be in an economic condition to compete. That is what people forget. They forget, too, that it is the same in France.
      What does all this show? It shows that we are much too timid to use the much better credit that we have in order to bring this country into a competitive condition. I cannot see how we are going to benefit by it. We sit here with a better exchange and a reduced debt, but all our competitors have cheaper methods of production to drive our goods out of the markets of the world. It is not my idea as a manufacturer. I have always found that the man who has the cheapest costs of production is the man who holds the market. I am not concerned with his capital costs. If he can produce cheaper than anybody else, he can go on making a profit when the other man is bankrupt. Surely we have now tested whether trade will normally revive. It will not. At the best, even if we settle all these troubles in the next month, it will take a long time. We still have this vast army of unemployment. Winter after winter and summer after summer you have said that things are going to get better, and then, in August or October, the Cabinet Committee on Unemployment meets and you begin to discuss schemes. At the same time you are told, as I was told, that there is no money, and every time it has proved not true. There is money. This country raised a gigantic sum during the War. I do not say that is a reason why you should spend money, but it does show what the country can do if necessary. Surely it is absurd to say that the financial resources of this country are so limited that you cannot squeeze a few hundred million in order to get on with the work. We can find loans for Austria. Every possible country in the world is raising money on the London market. The only loan that we do not find is a loan to develop our own Empire and our own country.
      It is an obsession which has seized some people, that the only thing to do is to sit quiet and try to pay our debt. Look at our exchange—and we are starving to death. Yet it is called sound finance. It may be national destruction. I do not believe it is either the one or the other. If your schemes are reasonably sound, as they ought to be, you will very
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      soon get a return for what you are doing. The Trade Facilities Act has been somewhat disappointing. The only real trade facility is to help people who are in difficulty to get money cheaply; otherwise, it has no object at all. If the trade facilities are extended merely to those who are thought to have the better security, they will never achieve what they are meant to achieve; and the amount of money guaranteed is quite insufficient. The export credits scheme has suffiered very much from the same kind of basis. Obviously, if the Government wants to put its credit at the disposal of traders it must not be afraid occasionally of making a bad debt. Governments can afford to make a bad debt when individuals cannot. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Certainly. Not merely that, but individuals sometimes can make more money if they are not afraid of making bad debts. I remember a manager of a firm with which I was connected pointing with pride to the fact that despite a large turnover he had only made one bad debt of £5. I asked him if he realised how much profit he had missed through being anxious not to make any bad debts. In normal circumstances, we think of these things, but we are not in normal circumstances; we are in abnormal circumstances. Therefore one feels that action should be taken.
      We are going to have the Imperial Economic Conference. I am very glad, and I only hope that it will be conducted on real economic lines. I hope it will not be allowed to develop into a series of platitudinous resolutions, as conferences so often do, or into any attempt to bolster up a policy of Tariff Reform by some kind of mysterious preferences. Either of these developments would be equally detrimental, equally to be deprecated, and of very little help. At the present moment it is not by building up difficulties that you are going to make trade flow, but by pulling them down. Therefore, I hope the Imperial Conference, over which, I understand, my right hon. Friend is going to preside, will have really practical questions put before it, and I hope it will also deal with them in a serious and practical way. The only assistance that is really practical is financial assistance. I remember a scheme for assisting the finances of the Indian railways to an extent far beyond what the, Indian

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      Government could raise, and it seemed to me at the time that that would offer a field of very great importance, in which a great deal of employment could be given to the people of this country, and in which money could usefully be invested. I hope that at the Conference questions of that kind will not merely be explored, but that, if possible, some arrangement will be come to.
      Then there is the further question of our home trade. We are always talking about our export trade, because the Board of Trade publishes figures for exports and imports, but no one publishes any figures about our home trade, although it is, after all, our biggest trade. Is there not something more that can be done there? I have a few positive suggestions. A very eminent and useful body was established when the Electricity Commission was set up, and it has been busily engaged in endeavouring to co-ordinate the large electrical supply stations and our whole system of electric supply in the future; but, like many innovations of this character, it is having a retarding effect on operations at present, and I am assured that there would be a great deal more business for the electrical industry to-day if, instead of so many inquiries being held, more decisions were come to, and people were allowed to place orders. I do not wish to criticise in any way the personnel of the Electricity Commission, but there are two things that I should like to say. Firstly, I think their number is much too small to enable them to get through the vast amount of work that has to be done; and, secondly, I believe the chairman of such a Committee should not be a technical man, but should be a non-technical man, who would be less inclined to go into considerations of detail and more inclined to come to a decision.
      This question is a serious one. I devoted some time to it a considerable time ago, and it is remarkable what a number of schemes have been held up, and how much money has not been spent in electrical industries, simply because negotiations have been pending with local authorities and power supply stations, and inquiries have dragged on, as they usually do, but nothing has been done. Anything that could be done to speed up these matters would be of real practical use. Then you have the question of the
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      electrification of the railways, and other questions of that kind. Surely, some greater stimulus should be given in the case of some of these problems. The Minister of Transport used to exercise a very considerable stimulating influence in that direction, and I think an appeal ought to be made. A great deal was done in America, when they had a very severe wave of unemployment, by making appeals to employers, and people who had orders to place, to get together and see what could be done. The result was very remarkable. People in this country are not deaf to appeals of this character. The War showed that an appeal made in the right spirit always met with a response. A great many people, however, are unimaginative, and do not visualise. I believe that if the Prime Minister himself, with his great experience of trade, would use his personal influence with some of the great railway amalgamations to hurry up and put into operation schemes which they dare not carry out in view of the slackness of our trade and the difficulties of our employment, I am certain that a much more ready response would be obtained. At any rate, I think it is well worth trying, and ought to be tried. The right hon. Gentleman may object that I am anxious that the Government should interfere too much in business. I am not. I am the last person in the world to want to interfere with business in its normal course, but we are living in abnormal conditions, and the Government are the guardians of our trade. The right hon. Gentleman knows that much could be done which would stimulate and. help our trade in the very serious position in which we are at present. Of course, there are other factors, with which the right hon. Gentleman is not immediately connected. We might have fewer industrial disputes, and more co-operation between Labour and capital. That would certainly be of assistance.
      Mr. J. JONES: And fewer starvation wages.
      Sir A. MOND: There would be fewer starvation wages, and, indeed, more wages altogether, if there were fewer disputes. There are also further questions in connection with our whole system of transportation, both roads and canals, and works of that kind. I am not going into the canal question, It is a very

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      controversial one, and various opinions have been expressed upon it by many Commissions which have considered it. I am not sure myself that there is not more to be done than has been assumed. We have never had really impartial reports or investigations on the question, but I think that opportunities would be found there of using money to advantage, money which would have a permanent future value. Then there is the question of the development of hydro-electric schemes, and especially the development of the tides. It is high time that some attention was given to that question. The French Government are devoting large sums of money to very important experiments on the coast of Normandy on the question of utilising the tides for hydro-electric purposes, and I understand that schemes are now proceeding. We made some few preliminary investigations on the Severn, but the matter requires a great deal more investigation, and there seems to be no reason why we should not develop a very large source of hydro-electric power in that direction. That would in itself be a very great benefit, but, as I said earlier in my speech, it is no use merely tinkering with the question; we must look to the future in relation to what our competitors are doing.
      There is, of course, one very heavy burden, which is the fundamental cause of almost all our depression, namely—and this is not the first time I have said this—overtaxation in this country. The whole financial policy of overtaxation is to my mind just like sitting on a man's chest and stopping him from getting up. You are causing a great deal of the depression about which you complain, and which you are trying to remedy in other respects. We have, in my opinion, deflated much more rapidly than was wise. Hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches are, curiously enough, anxious to deflate even much more rapidly, but that would produce an amount of unemployment which would stagger us. They are proposing to redeem huge blocks of War Debt, which, of course, would be deflation on a very big scale. I do not want to get too far away from the problem, but it is difficult, when dealing with the whole problem of trade, not to point out one of the more fundamental reasons why
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      trade is depressed, and the course which the Government have in their own hands.
      I do not take quite as gloomy a view as the right hon. Gentleman did in his speech, but perhaps I am more fortunate in that the industries in which I am personally interested are not in a depressed condition. I want to take, however, a rather wider view than that. The harvests of the world this year are; going to be very good, and, after all, all trade consists fundamentally in the exchange of industrial commodities for food products. The harvest in Canada, I understand, is going to be a record, and the harvests of the United States, of India, and of other countries are going to be good. Farmers, therefore, are going to be prosperous, and that ought to give a stimulus all round to consumption, which, one may hope, will counteract to a considerable extent the present unfortunate state of things. It may, therefore, well be that the depression will give place to a rise, or that, at any rate, there will not be any further fall. We must not, however, neglect to do everything which is in our power, and there are many things to be done which are within our power. I am a great believer in the future of industry, and particularly of British industry. We have not yet seriously begun the application of scientific methods and thought to industry. I am quite convinced that the world production in the next 50 years will be much greater than it has been in the last 100 years, and, therefore, I do not look lugubriously on the future. I do not believe in the decay of British trade or British industry. Our geograpical position has always secured for us the premier position in the world, both as a distributing and as a manufacturing centre. Our financial position has always maintained its strength. Therefore, I think we can look to the future with confidence, but we have to surmount the present, and, therefore, I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, who specially represents the interests of industry in the Government, not to allow his particular branch, which is so important to our Stability and prosperity, to be overlooked among the many things that are pressed upon every Government, whatever its complexion may be. I hope he will keep up his end, and I know that if he does, he will rightly earn the gratitude of the commercial community in this country.
      Mr. AUSTIN HOPKINSON: Having listened for some 30 minutes to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) advocating what is, in essence, the Capital Levy policy of the Labour party, I think it is time that some of us who still retain a little faith in private enterprise, in sound finance, and even in free trade, should, at any rate, register a protest. What is the policy that the right hon. Gentleman advocates? He advocates Government borrowing, inflation of currency, and inflation of credit. I think that that is a fair description of his policy. He says, let us extend such things as export credits; let us borrow money and develop the tides as a source of power—as though the power supply available in this country was not ample for any trade we are likely to get for some time to come. The development of the tides as a source of power is one of those specious things to which, probably, every engineer in his early youth devotes, as I did, much time and thought; but, with a little more experience of these problems, and a little more experience of commercial matters, one is soon led to believe that it is simply a fallacy.
      Sir A. MOND: I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but is he aware of the very important work on that subject which is being done in France?
      Mr. HOPKINSON: As an engineer, I am inclined to think, and I believe I have some justification for it, that in engineering the French, at any rate up to the present, have not been able to teach us very much.
      To return to the main argument, the right hon. Gentleman tells us that the Government ought to strain the national credit to its utmost; that instead of deflating, instead of making arrangements which will shortly enable us to fund the debt and to reduce taxation, we should continue to inflate, and, if I may thus express it, to get our liquid capital into a congealed state. All that he asks us to do is to reduce the credit of the country, in other words to bring about a capital levy. I am very sorry there are so few Members of the Labour party here, because if the Labour party intends to advocate a capital levy it is very desirable, in order that they may
      766
      put their arguments well and clearly before the people of the country, that they should study speeches like that of the right hon. Gentleman. After all, inflation is nothing else but a capital levy, and when the right hon. Gentleman says, look at the state of France, with no unemployment, and look at the state of Germany, with no unemployment, he forgot to tell the House that there is no unemployment in France or Germany because they are living in the main upon capital and not upon income. Everyone knows that those who invested their savings in Germany in industrial stocks or in banks or in what were supposed to be gilt-edged securities of the Government of Germany, have lost every penny of their investment, there has been a complete confiscation of the capital of the middle classes and the professional classes. Moreover, there is taking place at present an equally complete confiscation of the property of the rentier of France. I mention these matters because I am convinced really that the right hon. Gentleman did not believe a single word of what he was saying. Unhappily, during the life-time of the late Government it fell to him, as having one of the clearest minds in that Government, to advocate pernicious doctrines from that box. He made most convincing speeches in favour of Protection, in favour of the key industry policy, and of other economic heresies. Instead of coming here to listen to the right hon. Gentleman, as one might have done a few years ago, putting forward sound economic arguments upon which a sound economic policy might be based, that unhappy habit of his, acquired in the time of the late Government, of seeing whether he could not make the weaker argument the stronger and make every economic fallacy appear sound—and I must admit he did it with most remarkable success—has grown upon him until finally he gives such a pitiful, such a painful, and such a melancholy exhibition as we have had this afternoon.
      Mr. WALLHEAD: I should like to take up the line in regard to the prophecies which are being made in respect of our trade and commerce during the coming winter. I suppose it has been brought to the attention of the hon. Gentleman that a representation has been made to the Prime Minister, I suppose, largely based upon his own speech, in which he gave

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      such a gloomy view of the months which are approaching with regard to the question of the employment of our people. I notice it has almost become the fashion nowadays to ascribe the whole of the woes of our people to the late War. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has told us that the unemployment, the misery and the distress that confront our people are the aftermath of the War. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) told us that to some extent it is due to strikes, and that if it were not for strikes and trade disputes our people would be receiving better wages than they are doing. Unfortunately, there is a strike at present in the East End of London brought about because the men protested against their miserable wages being forced to a still lower level. Most trade disputes arise at periods like this out of the question of wage reductions. It is indicative of the hopeless attempt of the mass of the workers to retain a little of the standard that they had a year or two ago. We have trouble now looming on the railways because of the attempted reduction of wages. These disputes always arise out of the attempt of the men to retain their standard, whereas the hon. Member has just told us that if it were not for these disputes wages would be better than they are at present. What with this talk about the aftermath of the War and the wastage of wealth during the War, which I do not believe for a moment has anything to do with the question—[Interruption.] I should admit at once that the War caused tremendous destruction or wastage of labour, but after all, we are not bankrupt. The world is not bankrupt. No country can be bankrupt. Natural demand continues to exist. How much raw material was wasted? As a matter of fact, during the War we wasted certain years of productive labour, but nature still produces.
      The right hon. Baronet told us that we are in for a record harvest. The curious thing is that when I first saw the statement with regard to the record harvest and the likelihood of tremendous crops in Canada, that same report came to the conclusion that the farmers might be ruined—the very men who had produced the corn might be ruined because there was too much production. That is
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      a very remarkable state of affairs. Nature is not niggardly. She produces in profusion, and because she does so capitalist newspapers and writers come to the conclusion that the men who have produced the profusion are going to be ruined. Even Russia, after all her experience of the last three of four years, is now talking of exporting corn and, I understand, has placed an order in Scotland for an enormous quantity of sacks for the purpose of exporting her surplus. So, from the point of view of natural production, the War has not injured us at all. From the point of view of industrial capital, surely the world is not poorer now than it was in 1914. So far as I can gather, every producing nation in the world is richer from the point of view of real industrial capital than ever it was before They have more factories, more machinery, more steel plant, than ever they had. Invention has been piled upon invention, machinery has been produced almost out of recognition, the power of man to produce was never so great in the history of the world, and therefore I conclude that, from the point of view of the actual method of producing real industrial capital, the world is as rich or richer than she was in 1914. Certainly scientific knowledge is indefinitely more profound and deep than in 1914. All the factors are there for wealth production. In the War we used steel and coal rather more than we have been doing. The use of coal and steel and raw material during the War has materially depleted the world's stocks, but to assume that the world is poor because, forsooth, we wasted a certain amount of time between 1914 and 1918 is sheer futility. It is the sheer inability of capital itself to adapt itself to the new conditions that prevail. The natural demand is there all the time, and yet we are told, in face of all this, the surplus of production of food and machinery and the scientific knowledge, that next winter our people will be face to face with poverty, misery and starvation, and that the Government can do nothing at all, they have no proposal to make, and can give no help whatever, and we are told we must hesitate and we must be careful as to what we do lest, forsooth, we introduce some evil new principle which will bring ruin and degradation upon our people and will ruin our industry.

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      It seems to me that our industry is in a fair way of being ruined at present, and the difficulty is that the ruin is coming upon those who have no resources whatever. When I spoke last week I was taken to task by hon. Members opposite because I said I had very little sympathy with the men who had brought us to the difficult pass in which we find ourselves now. I have no hesitation in saying that this country is where it is because of the deplorable policy of the late Prime Minister laid down at Versailles instead of attempting to pursue a policy of reconciliation and friendship which would have led to the reconstruction of the broken life of Europe. We had wonderful pictures from him in those days. He said to us in one of his most inspired moments, "Fear not, I am on the bridge!" Supposing he was on the bridge. If the captain is drunk with egotism on the bridge he might as well be asleep in the cabin. All those marvellous pictures he painted for us of the sunlight glowing on the Cambrian hills have all turned pretty grey, and we are where we are because the so-called leaders of (he people, the leading politicians and the captains of industry, did not understand the working of their own system and could not tell how their policies would work out. Four years ago they gave no warning to the people as to what was likely to happen to them, and now they find themselves deserted in the coming winter, the Government sitting supinely by hoping for a period of repose and tranquillity which certainly does not seem likely to materialise. This country is not poor because it lacks the resources and the means of producing wealth. We are here because of a bad system of wealth production. We are here because so much of our labour power is used in a mischievous manner. We are told there is no money in the country, we cannot do this and we cannot do the other. Our industry has stood something the last year or two. It can stand Henley, it can stand Ascot, and it can stand Isle of Wight. It can stand the expenditure of wealth upon luxuries to an untold extent, and there is not a single pennyworth of money spent in luxury that does not come as the result of the sheer skimping of the man at the bottom. You can only get it that way. You cannot have prosperity for the wealth producer—
      Mr. SPEAKER: The matter before us is the Vote for the Board of Trade. It is not the Vote for the Foreign Office, nor is it a Vote for the London School of Economics.
      Mr. WALLHEAD: I bow to your ruling. I find myself in the same difficulty as did the right hon. Member for West Swansea, in keeping to the point. I submit that even in the speech of the right hon. Member for West Swansea there are some suggestions which the Government might take up and examine. There are questions that he has touched upon there that might be developed, and if we had a Government actuated by common sense, they would be developed, but our Government are too afraid of names and of what a thing might be called. If the State begins to interfere and use its powers for development, they are afraid that the sources of private production will disappear, so far as their own supporters are concerned. Along those lines, I think, there might be some help for the people of our country, provided we are not afraid of economic bogies and are determined to face the facts arising out of the new conditions with courage and determination, and with the express purpose of doing something to meet the deplorable conditions that exist for the mass of our people. I want to enter my protest against the inaction, or the seeming inaction, of the Government, with the full knowledge in their possession of the difficulties that loom ahead, with no preparation whatever made, and the winter coming, with all its bitterness, and sorrow, and misery for the people at the bottom; and if there be trouble in the coming winter, as there must be under the conditions foreshadowed even by the right hon. Gentleman himself, the real cause of it will be found to lie at the door of the Government themselves, who, in the months when they might have prepared, have done nothing to meet the difficulties with which they are faced.
      Mr. ELLIS: I have some sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. In the House and out of it, when any difficulty occurs in trade, it has become more or less the custom to blame the Government, either for something they have done or for something they might have done and have not done. Really, the whole ques-

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      tion is one which we have to tackle from an economic point of view, from a point of view which really ought to concern capital and labour alone. I do not say, of course, that there are not many ways in which a Government can hinder and can help trade, but in the long run what really matters to any country is that it should be able to produce the profit and find the market to buy its goods. It does not matter in the least, dealing with economic questions on a broad basis, whether you have a Capitalist organisation or what hon. Members opposite call a Socialist organisation. What they can never get rid of is the basic fact that to carry on industry of any kind you must have capital, and in order to live you must make a profit on the things in which you deal. What concerns us to-day primarily is not only to find a market, but to find a market in which the ordinary customers are able to pay us. That, to my mind, is the difficulty from which we are suffering to-day throughout the whole of the world.
      It is beside the mark to say that the War is not responsible for what is happening to-day. The inevitable result of the destruction of a large amount of capital must lead, whatever your economic conditions in the country may be, to a terrible upset in world trade and industry. In this country, fortunately or unfortunately, we are in the position of not being self-sufficient, or, one might say, self-supporting, and in no circumstance, with our present population and with our present tendency toward an increase of that population, can we ever be entirely self-sufficient or self-supporting. Therefore, it is a matter of prime necessity to consider what markets outside this country we should seek. If one looks round the world to-day one finds that in the East the reason why we cannot trade with China is one that is to a large extent beyond our control, because she is in revolution. In India, the reason why we find considerable difficulty in trading is the aftermath of the War to some extent, and to a very large extent the spirit of unrest engendered by an agitation which has led to a large refusal to take British goods. Although at first it might not seem to be apparent, the effect of the world War on the present position of Germany has very much affected our
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      trade, even with India. I do not think it is quite realised what a very big trade India did with Germany before the War in raw materials. Raw materials sold in Germany set free in India, working through London, a large amount of money which was available for investment in English goods and English securities. That is an indirect effect of the War which I think no hon. Member opposite would deny, but it is very real all the same, and it deprives us of a considerable opportunity of getting rid of our production.
      Turning to another part of the world, what have we to face to-day in a market which we had, up to quite recently at any rate, for the luxury goods which we produced? I hope hon. Members opposite will be the last to say, if we do not use the luxury goods at home, that they are prepared to see the trades which produce them suffering any diminution, because, if they do, I can assure them it is going to knock out of this country one of the most prolific sources of profit and revenue which it has ever had. If we take the position in America to-day, we are met with a determined attempt, economic, but nevertheless determined, to keep the goods of foreign nations to a large extent outside the United States. Whether or not it will be successful remains to be seen. Not only have we had a tariff put up against the importation of foreign goods into America, but, running parallel with that, there is a determined admission on the part of American capital that you have to have a relatively large increase in the wages paid to labour. In order to make that increase doubly certain they have introduced stringent immigration laws, which prevent any competition in the labour which has to be supplied. The result is, be it good or bad from our point of view, a very large inflation in America, and a consequent very great increase in the cost of living and of material of every kind throughout the States. Coupled with that, they have a very large mass of gold collected from the rest of the world, and we are face to face with this position, that, owing to the inflation and to the monetary indigestion from which they are suffering because of the presence of so much gold, there is bound to be some crisis before very long in American trade and industry. We have that to face in the future, and very important it is from our point of

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      view, because it may lead to the unloading of a good deal of American material on the few markets left in which we can compete to-day.
      We have one of our old markets left to consider, the market of Central Europe. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the home market?"] I am coming to that, but I cannot deal with everything at once. It is difficult to speak of any trade or industrial matter in Central Europe without some reference to political conditions, and I hope I may be allowed to refer to this question in so far as it affects industrial conditions. The effect of the occupation of the Ruhr has been to put an end to all feeling of confidence in trade in Central Europe.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:And here, too.
      Mr. ELLIS: I quite agree. The first result of that is that you cannot tackle the question of stabilisation of currency at all, because no one knows what Germany is going to be called upon to pay, and, therefore, no one knows what the countries concerned are going to get out of Germany, and until that is known it is impossible to put your house in order so that you may get to a basis on which you are able to say: "The value of my currency to-day, for the purpose of trade, is going to be as stable as I can make it, and is likely to be stable for a sufficient number of weeks or months ahead for any merchant dealing with me, when he prepares his invoices and calculates his profits, to say that it is going to be worth his while to trade with me." It is a little unfair, as the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) said, to say that the real question is one of more production, and that the Government ought to finance undertakings in this country to carry on exports abroad. So far as that goes, is there any real difficulty to-day—and I speak with some knowledge, as a private banker who has been through some of these things himself—in any industrial enterprise in this country with any standing, with any reputation, with any knowledge of its business, getting all the financial help it requires to-day? If that be so, is it not perfectly apparent to all that the real reason why trade has more or less come to a stop to-day is not that we cannot
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      produce enough, but that we cannot find the people to pay for our goods when they are produced?
      5.0 P.M.
      That, therefore, is what we have to direct our attention to, and to see if, by some possible way, not only can we restore those markets, but restore them in the sense that the people who will come to them in the future, as in the past, have some basis upon which to work to produce goods in exchange which will enable them to take our goods. That is the whole difficulty from which we are suffering to-day, and I hope that, whatever is done by the Board of Trade or by any other internal Department of this country, it will be thoroughly realised that what are stopping trade to-day in Europe are political conditions, and nothing else. If we are going to get any restoration of trade, any increase of production which makes it worth while to produce, those conditions must improve, for after the War nobody will suggest that it would be sense to build up an enormous production to-day in the hope of selling it in the future. So far as 5.0 P.M. political considerations are concerned, I do think that it is important to consider this point of view. Before you sign your Treaty arranging to take this step or that step, I do suggest to my right hon. Friend that his Department should be consulted by the diplomatic and Foreign Office side as to what possible effect certain aspects of the political Treaty which compel reparations to be paid in certain ways may have on the trade of this country. It is a most important consideration, and, if I may be forgiven for bringing it to the notice of the House, it is because it will be too late if the Treaty is settled. There is only one way in which you can get an individual—or a nation—to pay debts he owes you, and that one way is by taking steadily from his production as large a proportion as you can possibly get from what is left over after he has been able to keep himself in a moderate condition of life. That is what we have had to face, but let us face it without any sentimental recollection of any kind. There is no question of sentiment in providing for the people of this country to live. It is admitted on all hands that we are sympathetic to our Allies, but our first and essential consideration is employment for our people and food whereby they may live. That must be the first

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      consideration in any Treaty. Therefore the only way in which we can get the money which is to pay our reparations indirectly, the money which is to pay part of our Debt to America, is by taking it from the profits of German trade. That, of course, implies the necessity of allowing Germany to trade. Therefore we are face to face with that issue. But when the time comes to get that money—and get it we must—how are you going to get it? There are only two ways in which that money can be got.
      Mr. WALLHEAD: Had you better not cut your loss?
      Mr. ELLIS: I hope the hon. Member will allow me to finish. Take a country—I am not taking Germany particularly in this sense, but take any country which is in the position of having to pay in full its debts to one creditor, and yet retaining its full right to deal with others; because I think it will be agreed that it is extremely difficult to get anything from a bankrupt unless you allow him in his business a certain amount of freedom. You can only get that money in two ways—by taxing the import of raw material and taxing again the exported manufactures; and I think in taxing the import of raw material you will get at the amount of money put away by the Germans in order to provide credits abroad, because they cannot carry on their trade without the import of raw materials, and if those raw materials are paid for by the foreign credits abroad, you will touch some of those foreign credits by exacting a tax on the imports bought with them. In the same way, you will get some of your debts back by taxing the exported manufactures.
      I ask the House to consider—I do not think it can be settled at short notice—what effect that may have on the trade of this country. Obviously, if you were to allow a free and an unrestricted trade by Germany throughout the world under compulsion of paying considerable reparations, you would find it the strongest competitor in the international market you could possibly get, and, in view of what has taken place in the past, it will be necessary to have some restriction of the kind mentioned in order to restore the balance and to see that before your goods are produced at impossible prices on the international market, you have got
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      your margin in reparations from Germany before she competes. I do ask the President of the Board of Trade to take some note of these considerations before a Treaty is made, in order that, with his advice and knowledge of British trade, whatever is done, when it is done, will be done with due regard to our trade in the future.
      There is just one other consideration I should like to mention as a banker. I am not speaking in this sense in the ordinary way, but when one has been engaged in the profession of private banking, one has come into very close touch with the trade and industry of the country, and has probably more knowledge of one's friends and customers than an ordinary joint stock banker. With that knowledge one would like to prophesy a smooth time, but in my part of the world there was never a time in which greater apprehension was felt, and greater fear for the future, owing to the conditions which exist throughout the world. To-day our textile industry in the North of England is suffering severely, because its markets have been shut down, and not only for that reason, but because even in its home market there has been a very large amount of dumping by the French into this country. The material dumped into this country has been sold at a price at which it is impossible for us to produce and yet pay a decent living wage to the workers. That is a very serious consideration—a consideration which applies not only to industry—I am not dealing with Free Trade and Protection now, because I am a Free Trader—but it must be taken account of in any measure of arrangement which is made with the French.
      I am interested, too, in one of the proposals of the right hon. Member for Swansea. He spoke rather vaguely, but I have a strong recollection of an interesting speech which he made, wherein he so heartily called the Labour party to order for not definitely stating what their particular brand of Socialism was. So in his case I should have been very interested to know what is the particular brand of inflation which he proposes. It is true he did not propose inflation directly; he is much too clever for that. But what he did was to suggest in some sort of way that there has been too much deflation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Moseley pointed out, directly you

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      begin to inflate, there is a certain Nemesis following you the whole time. Somebody is going to suffer, and inflation simply means the transfer of money from one set of pockets to another set of pockets. It may be very convenient if you hold a large mass of materials, of which you want to get rid, to persuade the country generally to go in for inflation, because then your mass of material which you hold, say, at the price of 20s., immediately, by reason of the fact that it is material and not currency paper, goes up to 25s., and you can get rid of it. But what is going to be the effect upon all those people who have got their money in the form of pensions, savings, or retiring allowances? The effect is a very simple one, and it is this: Their capital remains the same, but their power of purchase falls by so much as the inflation grows. I do suggest that we have had quite enough of that sort of thing in this country without wanting any more.
      I demur also to the theory that what is called bankers' deflation in this country is due to any concerted move on the part of the Government or the bankers. Deflation took place in this country because we had a mass of stocks which nobody wanted at the time, and, naturally, prices fell. The effect was felt throughout the whole trade and industry of the country, and most inevitably. I do not know what other step the Government could take than the step it did take, and that was to do nothing, and to leave it to trade and industry to look after themselves. Trade and industry are in the main like a man living his life in the ordinary normal way, now and again being subject to diseases and troubles, which are generally the result of his own action. You get unnecessary expansion. You eat too much and you suffer for it, and during your period of recovery you do not, if you are a wise man, look round for all sorts of medicines to put you right, but you admit you have made a mistake, and you sit tranquilly by until you have recovered your position, and are able to resume your ordinary life. Therefore, I do suggest that these various gibes that are made at my right hon. Friend and the Government are not reasonable. In fact, when I listen to the right hon. Member for West Swansea, I think he has generally got a pleasant smile at the back of his head. When he says this and
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      that, he does not really mean it, but he likes to get up and tackle my right hon. Friend, who is younger and not so experienced, if he will forgive me for saying so, with little facts which are not intended to convey anything here, but which, at the same time, outside this House, are taken for more than they mean, and, if I may again be forgiven, for more than they are worth.
      But he mentioned one thing of which I am going to ask my right hon. Friend to take note. In the country to-day we are suffering to a very large extent from either the inability or the inaction of the Electricity Commissioners, and I can speak feelingly, because I have some connection with electrical energy production in the West Biding of Yorkshire. It is our wish to do what we possibly can by a large extension of our plant. We are subject to rules and regulations which are made by the Commissioners. We are anxious to get on with our work, and to find work for the unemployed, but we are altogether prevented from doing so by what is, to my mind, the very amazing slowness of the decisions come to by these Commissioners. I am almost tempted to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that if this is going to continue, he might approach the Treasury to see if the number of Commissioners could not be increased, because if the work could be got through faster, it would enable us in this period of unemployment and difficulty to employ men who would not otherwise be employed. If the thing is going on as slowly as it is, when the recovery of trade comes, we shall have gone through a period when men, instead of drawing the dole, might have been at work, and we shall have to deal with our undertakings at possibly higher cost. The same consideration might also be applied to another matter. In dealing with industry we might to some extent, in many places, change the dole for some real work. If we could introduce a system among the local authorities who now come here to squabble and to spend large sums of money—I Can speak feelingly for my own constituents—as to whether this little bit of a water shed belongs to them or to somebody else, and matters could be arranged differently, it would be better all round. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nationally!"] No, that would be the last thing to do. I cannot conceive any efficient form of water works that was dealt with

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      from London. By the time a decision had been taken probably the water works would have run dry. We could deal with these questions in a broader way by setting up boards all over the country, and instead of municipalities coming here squabbling and spending large sums of money, that money could be spent among the unemployed.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:With part of what the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Ellis) has said, many on this side of the House will agree, but with regard to his last suggestion, while a certain amount of money might be available for unemployment in the North of England, I am afraid that the legal fraternity would lose a good many briefs in the South of England, and they would become unemployed. That shows that you are up against some vested interest, whatever you do. What is one man's gain is generally another man's loss. When the hon. Member for Wakefield expresses the hope that the Foreign Office will consult with the Board of Trade occasionally, he seems to think that we have not yet returned to the Cabinet system of government. I understand that the President of the Board of Trade is a Member of the Cabinet. Surely he is consulted in these matters. The sight of the Marquess Curzon during the last four or five years consulting the President of the Board of Trade on the question whether foreign policy affects our trade or otherwise would have been a sight for the gods. Both of them have been equally mistaken, and have played their part in misleading the public. They have both played their part, one in another place and one here, in bamboozling the representatives of the people, either elected or hereditary; but we see signs of grace and enlightenment and repentance. I do not want to be ungenerous. I was very glad to observe the Noble Marquess in another place yesterday advocating the League of Nations scheme for a loan to Hungary, and I hope that the President of the Board of Trade, in his reply, will give a rather more encouraging answer to some of the constructive suggestions that have been made than he did to myself and other hon. Members on the last occasion when this Vote was under discussion.
      780
      I am glad of the powerful support now given by the right hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) with regard to the question of trade with Russia. I am highly elated, and I hope I shall be forgiven for this elation, when I find that my advocacy of the extension of our overseas trade insurance scheme to that country is reinforced by such a master of politics, industry, business and finance as the right hon. Member for West Swansea. Like the right hon. Member, I am not in any way advocating the case of the Russian Government. I am speaking simply from the point of view of British business and British industry and of the workpeople who need employment in this country. In Moscow to-day we have a trade mission headed by Mr. Hodgson. I have on previous occasions, speaking from first-hand knowledge, referred to the excellent way in which he sustains his office, and the dignity with which he discharges his duties. That mission is not an Embassy. It is called a trade mission, but it is not fully organised. They have not got the personnel for assisting British trade, and they do not pretend to have. The best way I can illustrate that is by making a contrast between this organisation and the organisation of a real, so-called German Embassy in Moscow. In Moscow the German Ambassador and his staff deliberately, as a matter of policy, try to assist German nationals and to open up trade between their country and Russia. They have one or two gentlemen on the staff who are specially detailed for the purpose of assisting German business men who come to Russia for business. They speak the language perfectly, they have the entry to all the Government Departments, and they chaperone and bear-lead German business men who go to Russia, and help them in every possible way. We have no one in a similar position in our trade mission. The consequence is, that the Germans, in spite of their terrible difficulties, in spite of their currency difficulties, in spite of the fact that the Ruhr occupation has made the delivery of goods difficult, and in spite of the fact that the whole commercial situation in Germany is perilous, are doing a great deal more trade with Russia than is England, and we are suffering in consequence.

      781
      Take the Consular service. We have, I understand, a Consul at Petrograd, but he is not called a Consul; he is called an agent. The word "Consul" might give some sort of recognition of the Russian Government, I suppose. Have we a Consul at Odessa, Novorossisk or any of the great ports of Russia in the South? We have no representative of any sort in Georgia. We have no Consul or official representative in one of the richest countries, for its size, in the world. Georgia is immensely rich with oil, minerals and many valuable products in which we are interested. In great centres in Russia we have no Consuls although we had Consuls before the War. Is there any reason why we should not have Consuls there. Call them agents or anything else, so long as they try to help British business men. If we have not these gentlemen, why not? Is it the Treasury that objects, or the Foreign Office? What does the President of the Board of Trade think about it? Is he pursuing the policy of the Conservative party during the time of the Coalition Government, when they did all they could, secretly and behind the scenes, to prevent trade between England and Russia? When the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs carried through the trade agreement it was met with the most bitter, covert opposition from certain sections of the Conservative party. It was a sneaking opposition behind the scenes, but none the less effective. Is that being carried on in the Conservative party to-day? They would not dare to face commercial circles by reversing the policy of the late Prime Minister, but is it their policy to hinder and oppose the increase of trade between the two countries?
      Let us take one great example. A large wheat and grain crop is coming along to export from Russia, and the business is being competed for by brokers and grain merchants of various countries. The managing director of one of the oldest, most conservative, and most excellent of British firms of grain merchants, told me that he had been trying to negotiate the handling of a very large quantity of that grain. At least it amounted to one million tons. I think he was hoping that the total for export would be three million tons. Certainly, one million tons is a conservative estimate. He tells me that he got no help from our Government in connection
      782
      with the business. It is a matter of the distribution of grain all over Europe. He complained to me that the German merchants were getting every sort of assistance from their Government, financially and diplomatically, in their negotiations. It will mean a big loss in shipping charges, insurance charges, and the ordinary brokers' profit in the handling of this grain if he fails and the Germans succeed. Somebody is going to handle it, and I ask the President of the Board of Trade to look into this matter very carefully. We organised the trade mission in Moscow to help British trade, and it ought to be under his Department, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said, and not under the Foreign Office. I make no charge against the personnel, but they are not being allowed to help British merchants as they ought to be helped.
      I regret very much that the Government will not extend the Trade Facilities Act to Russia. The excuse of the right hon. Gentleman is that the Russian Government do not recognise the pre-War obligations, and that there is no confidence on the part of British traders; but the fact remains that people are prepared to trade with Russia and are trading with Russia, and they want a little help in doing it. As to the question of the obligations of the Russian Government being recognised, that is by no means a closed book. That matter ought to be negotiated. I believe some arrangement could be come to by negotiation in regard to the pre-War debts of Russia, but we will not negotiate. We had a crisis in the early part of this year, which nearly led to war between our Government and the Russian Government. Now that that crisis is over, we should take the next step and organise a conference between our Government and the Russian Government, as is laid down in the trade agreement, which states that these questions of the debts and liabilities of the Russian Government, and our debts to them, shall be opened up and dealt with at a regular conference between the two countries. That has never been done. The Russian Government asked for these conference? in several of their Notes during the crisis, with a view to settling these outstanding questions. Every hon. Member is being bombarded with post cards from his constituents who have investments in Russia.

      783
      I want to support the claims of British subjects who are owed money in Russia, but their claims cannot be settled without conference. We have to face it, and the longer it drags on the more loss there is on our nationals and there will be all the difficulties about finance that the right hon. Gentleman mentions. But that is no excuse for the Government not moving. The fact that bankers, perhaps by agreement, hold back from giving credit to Russia is no reason for the Government not trying to get difficulties removed. That can only be done by direct negotiation with the Russian Government. They are there; they are not going to fall; they are getting stronger every day. Every independent observer admits that, without ceasing to criticise certain aspects of their policy. The hon. Member for the Mosley Division (Mr. Hopkinson) talked of the French Government living on its capital. What else are we doing with the present rate of unemployment? I do not often pay attention to the hon. Member's speeches, but I have to comment on that statement of his. We are living on our capital. Thai cannot go on. As the hon. Gentleman said, we should leave sentiment aside and look at the matter from a business point of view, and I do beg of the Government to alter their policy.
      I desire now to refer to the very pertinent remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman who opened the discussion and who spoke about transport. Every manufacturer in this country complains of our high rates, which are injuring the recovery of this country and will injure us when trade improves unless something is done. We have the Ministry of Transport, but it has not anything to do with transport. I think that the Board of Trade is very largely concerned. Our railway rates are strangling British commerce. I get complaints from my constituents, and I am sure that every hon. Member gets complaints from his constituents. Take the question of improved communications. One matter of vital importance is a tunnel under the Humber River. This does not concern my constituents alone. It concerns the whole of the East of England, particularly the East Riding of Yorkshire and the great rich county of Lincolnshire.
      This work cannot be done by private enterprise, and I do not think it will be
      784
      done by the railway companies. In either France or Germany a thing of this kind would have been done by the Government 40 or 50 years ago. It would open up the Lincolnshire iron fields and develop transport between the two counties. This matter is essential. We have all this money spent on unemployment at present, and meantime this vital means of communication is neglected. At a time of trade depression when unemployment prevails improvements in communication of this character should be undertaken. I am sorry that a reduction in the Vote was not moved. I am afraid that the activity of the Board of Trade is not sufficient for the difficult times in which we live. I dare say that they do their best, but it is a poor best. This Government has had long enough to have evolved a policy, but it has no far-sighted, carefully thoughtout policy of meeting our difficulties at the present time. We are drifting and hesitating, and the life-blood of the country is running out.
      Mr. J. JONES: I cannot claim to have the expert knowledge of business which some of the hon. Members who have already addressed the House claim to possess. But the more I listen to them the more convinced I am that business, as they understand it, is not for the good of the community. They say in effect that when a thing is profitable it should be left to private individuals, and when a thing is not profitable it should be done by the State or the municipality. That is a most remarkable doctrine in respect to capital, which might be described as the end of everything economical. Some people always associate capital with the private individual who owns it. After all, capital is simply the instrument used for the purpose of producing wealth. But the gentleman who controls it imagines that he is the essential person. In the Departments covered by this Board of Trade vote we have a great amount of authority in connection with the organisation of capital enterprise.
      Every public body which wants to develop its tramways or electricity supply, or any of the functions which are usually associated with matters concerning trade, has to go to the Board of Trade for the purpose of getting authority to act in certain connections. I understand that the Ministry of Transport still exists, but all authority in reference to

      785
      tramways is signed by the Board of Trade, and all the Acts of Parliament under which they operate are administered by the Board of Trade and the officials of the Board of Trade. The Ministry of Transport has simply been superimposed, and in that connection it is a most extraordinary doctrine, for some of us who happen to be Socialists, to hear that where there is a profit to be made the private individual must be allowed freedom to have it, but where there is no profit to be made the State is to find the money. That seems to me to be a beautiful game of put and take. We do the putting and you do the taking.
      The Board of Trade publish a document every month dealing with the conditions of employment and the cost of living. To-day we have in London alone somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 men in the streets in revolt against their figures. Of course I know that an agreement has been made—an agreement made by force. It was not a voluntary agreement. No trade union to-day can enter into a voluntary agreement because we are down and out, and just as the Germans took full advantage militarily of their opportunities during the period of the Great War, so those in authority to-day are taking full advantage of their opportunities economically to force the workman down to the lowest possible level of existence. I happen to represent a constituency where the principal body of men involved in this dispute live. There have been two regrettable occurrences this week, last night and the night before. The men are getting out of hand because they find themselves practically down and out. But do not imagine that this matter is going to be settled.
      The Minister of Labour promised the other day in connection with this matter that, after normal circumstances arose, he would be prepared to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. I would ask the President of the Board of Trade on what basis his figures, on which the cost of living is estimated, and which are published in the "Board of Trade Gazette" are arrived at? How can he prove to the workmen that their cost of living has been so reduced that their wages have got to be further reduced? This is only the beginning of a great revolt, because any further reductions are simply going to recreate the very circumstances which
      786
      are now prevailing. I am speaking now as a casual labourer myself from actual experience, and I ask, how can you estimate the cost of living of a man who has, on the average, two days' work in the week on the basis of the position of a man who is working the full week through? How can you say to that man, "The cost of living has gone down, and therefore your wages must come down"?
      He is not an expert in figures. I listen to people in this House who are experts in figures, and the more I listen to them the more I am amazed. I have been reminded that figures cannot lie, but that liars sometimes can figure, and when I have listened to them and have gone home I have asked the missus—and she is in the Gallery now—" Kate, what is the price of stuff?" and she says, "I see no reduction." She has not been able to discover it when she goes out into the market, and I undertake to say that if hon. Members opposite, who may be better placed than some of us are, would come with us into any of the retail markets in the East End of London they would not discover the reductions which are supposed to have taken place in the cost of living.
      No wonder the men revolt; no wonder the docks, the lighters and everything have been stopped, because the men, and particularly their wives, are incensed against having to submit to a reduction of wages which brings them below a decent standard of living, and in spite of having these reductions they get the policeman's baton as well. We can afford to pay policemen to baton them; we can send hundreds of men thereto break meetings up, and yet we cannot afford to deal with the thing that matters. If I can prove to these men that their case is not a good one, and demonstrate that your figures are correct, that the "Board of Trade Gazette" is not published for the purpose of throwing dust in the eyes of the people, then you will get them to return to common-sense methods. I believe in constitutionalism, but I cannot excuse myself, when I am face to face with men who can prove that for months they have only worked one day in the week, and that on that day they have to suffer a reduction of a shilling, so that they go home with 9s. for the week. If a man has to go down to the docks twice a day—
      Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's remarks should be made on the Ministry of Labour Vote. The figures to which he refers are not published by the Board of Trade, but by the Ministry of Labour.
      Mr. JONES: I beg your pardon. They are published in the "Board of Trade Gazette."
      Mr. SPEAKER: I have been making inquiries on the point, and am told that they are not.
      The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame): That is quite right. The cost of living figures, on which all these wages agreements are based, are published in the "Ministry of Labour Gazette." The only figures for which the Board of Trade are responsible are the wholesale figures which are published from time to time.
      Mr. JONES: That is the point which I want to raise. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has interrupted me in this way, and that you, Sir, have put me right. It is exactly upon the wholesale figures that we want to raise the point. The wholesale figures have no relation to the retail figures by which the workers are affected.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The figures which the hon. Member wishes to discuss are, I think, the figures upon which wages agreements are based. These are Ministry of Labour figures. They are the retail figures, which have nothing to do with the wholesale figures.
      Mr. JONES: I admit that they are different. What I want to argue is that we challenge the retail figures, and we challenge the wholesale figures so far as the workers are concerned. We challenge those figures in every detail, because the wholesale figures for one class of goods, which the workman does not use, are lower than the figures for the goods which he does use, and, as a consequence, the retail figures have no relationship. Therefore we always find ourselves in the cart; whatever we do, we are wrong. If we bring the matter up on one Vote, we are told, "The Board of Trade is responsible." We read the "Board of Trade Gazette," and what do we see? We see the number of trade disputes that have taken place, and the number of hours per week the men work in the docks. Has
      788
      the Board of Trade no relation to that? A man cannot get more than eight hours work in any one week, yet he is reckoned to be employed for the whole week, and his cost of living is estimated on that basis. I really do not know how we can raise this matter, but, so far as we are concerned, the Government are responsible; whether it be through the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Labour does not matter much. I have got in what I wanted to say, and that is all that does matter.
      Mr. H. H. SPENCER: I do not propose to follow the last speaker on questions of capital and labour, but to occupy a few minutes discussing questions of trade. I think it is sometimes useful where one can find a few points of agreement with the Minister in charge of a Department—at any rate, agreement as to facts—and I am going to put forward two statements of fact for the right hon. Gentleman's consideration. If we can agree upon those facts, I am going to base one or two arguments where I think we disagree as to what those facts mean. We have had several Debates in this House on the administration of the Dyestuffs (Import Regulation) Act. I have ventured to speak once or twice on those Debates, and my hon. Friends have done the same. We had a Debate a week ago, when I am sorry I was away; or else I think I should have taken action, such as the Irishman did when he saw a street fight, and asked whether it was a private fight or whether anybody could join in. This will be the last occasion for a good many weeks upon which we shall be able to bring up these very important agreements in the textile trade and the colour users' trade. The two facts which I wish to put before the Minister are these. It is a fact that the colour users in this country are paying very much higher prices for their dye wares than they were during the War, and they are paying very much higher prices than their competitors abroad. Secondly, and this is an admitted fact, there has been and there is a tendency, in both the wool and cotton textile trade, for the proportion of goods which are exported dyed and finished to decrease, and for the export of undyed—what we call grey—semi-raw stuff to increase. Those are facts which the Minister has admitted

      789
      in answer to various questions, but we differ as to their implication.
      I am not going to recapitulate the many facts which, over and over again, we have brought before the Board of Trade, but I will mention two or three of the most striking. I gave the President of the Board of Trade an instance where the Government, or the Licensing Committee on behalf of the Government, refused to allow a dye-user to import two tons of colour, although the British price for them was £1,736 more than the price at which the dye-user could have bought them in Italy. The present basis on which licences are granted is this. The British dyer is given a preference; he is given prohibition against importation if he is prepared to sell to the British user at a price not more than three times the pre-War price. Let me show the House what that means. Supposing the pre-War price were 1s. a lb., and supposing the Swiss price is 2s. a lb. If the British dye-maker is prepared to sell at 3s. a lb. the Board of Trade prohibits the dye-user getting his dye at the Swiss price of 2s. a lb., and compels him to pay the British dye-maker 3s. a lb., or three times the pre-War price. I have put before the Minister various facts, and I will take the liberty of reading a letter which I sent on to him some few weeks ago, from some of the largest buyers of British textiles in America. This firm wrote to me, and sent an inquiry for a certain particular textile cloth. At the bottom of the letter, they said:
      "We think it would be advisable for you to quote for the goods undyed, also for finished goods with ordinary washing dyes and with guaranteed fast dyes. Our experience is that the cost of guaranteed fast dyes from England is very much higher than the cost of similar dyes in the United States. This is the reason why we suggest you quote for the grey goods as well as the finished goods."
      I sent that letter to the Minister, and we disagree as to the implication involved. I came back from a little trip to the Continent, and I found another letter awaiting me from one of my constituents, who said:
      "One goes to the expense of sending a traveller to the Far East, one is taxed almost to breaking point, and then one is prevented from executing profitable business. To particularise: we got an order for 60 cases, value over £4,000, and our customer wanted a new colour. Application for licence to import the dyeware from
      790
      broad was refused; English dyeware makers would supply the right stuff, but have not done so yet. In consequence, we are in danger of having the entire order cancelled, in which event the manufacturer will have thrown on his hands all the other colours which are now ready, because we may not ship an incomplete assortment."
      That, shortly, is the contention of the dye users in this country. This textile trade is not without some importance. I do not think the Board of Trade has ever quite realised what its importance is to this country, and I think it will surprise hon. Members when I tell them that the average percentage of our textile exports is something like 43 or 44 per cent. of the whole of the manufactured exports of this country. I want to point out that the constant trend of sending our exports away undyed, because of the difficulties which have been put in the way of the dyeing trade, involves the further danger that we are not only going to lose the dyeing trade, as we are losing it now, but that we are ultimately going to find our textile trade very much hampered. Hon. Members above the Gangway, who know anything about the textile trade, and who sit for textile constituencies, are aware that, generally speaking, it is very much easier for the foreigner to copy a plain textile cloth than to copy a dyed and finished-off cloth. If we send very highly finished and beautifully dyed textiles abroad we may keep that trade; but if we send the cloth undyed to Germany, Switzerland, France, or even to the Far East, we are much more likely to lose not only the dyeing trade but the manufacturing trade as well. The difference between the President of the Board of Trade and myslf on this question is that the right hon. Gentleman seems to think, and maintained in the various Debates we have had in this House, that the establishment of a dye-making industry in this country, first of all, is necessary to the textile trade, and, secondly, has been of advantage to the textile trade. I deny both of those hypothesi.
      The dye-making industry was not established in this country in any relation to the colour-using trade. It was established solely because of the danger of war. We were told that because of the relations between explosives and the coal-tar industry and the extracting industries, we must have these colour-using factories, which could be turned into munition factories at the shortest

      791
      possible notice. Nearly all of us agreed with that, and I, in common with my colleagues in the textile industry, agreed that if it were necessary to have this security in case of future war, not only should it be done, but we were perfectly prepared to pay our share of doing it. We maintain, however, that if that is the reason for setting up those huge factories, it is as much a matter of national defence as the Navy, the Army, or the Air Force, and that, whatever the cost, it should be put on the general taxpayer. Not only that, but the general taxpayer, above everything, ought to know what the cost is. At the present time, the whole cost is being put on the colour-users, and it is being put on them in a way which is costing them far more than the actual monetary loss, through the interference with business and the uncertainty of business. Let me give the House two or three instances to show the evils that exist. We are all agreed, at any rate on this side of the House, that one of the most important things in business is to keep up the free breath of competition. In the dyeing industry we have one great syndicate—one great association—which is more or less of a monopoly. We have, outside that association, many smaller dyers, and to those smaller men the very breath of their life is the ability to buy their raw material, the dyewares, in small quantities.
      The action of the Government is helping the great monopolistic combination to crush these small dyers out of existence. The great syndicate can afford to buy and hold large quantities of dyewares. The little, outside man, who is the man we want to keep alive, is dependent, as he was before the War, on the merchant of dyewares who is prepared to hold the stocks for him. Moreover, the very fine colours which the British dye-maker finds the greatest difficutly in making are the very colours which the little dyer will want to buy in the smallest possible quantities. Everyone can see that the very fine expensive colours are those which are wanted in the smallest possible quantities. The Minister has replied to me—although he admits that our cost of dyeing is higher and he admits, also, all sorts of questions, when I ask him—that he does not admit that we are handicapped and that the main cause of the loss of a
      792
      considerable proportion of our dyeing trade is the excessive cost of dyewares. I admit that the cost of dyeing to-day is very much higher than it ought to be in proportion to the extra cost of the average commodities of the world; but, if we go to the dyers, what do they tell us? They repeat to us the fevered arguments of our tariff reform and protectionist people. They say, "If we could run 100 per cent. of production, our overhead charges would come down; our cost for coal, in proportion to turnover, would come down, and our cost for labour, in proportion to turnover, would also come down. One of the reasons why we have to keep up these exorbitant prices for dyeing is the fact that we are running only at 60 or 70 per cent. production."
      6.0 P.M.
      In so far as the Board of Trade, by its administration of this Act, is hampering our dyeing trade, it is artificially keeping up the cost of the dyeing, and so the vicious circle goes round. You start with the high cost of raw material and with a diminished demand for the finished product. Because of the diminished demand, the factories work short time, the overhead charges go up, and then the factories say, "We must have higher prices again to cover us for the loss caused by short working." I appeal not for Protection but against Protection upside down. So far as textiles are concerned, we are a Free Trade country. I have to sell my goods in this City of London in free and open competition with the Frenchman, and I have no complaint to make of fair competition, but I object very strongly—and I think the Labour party will support me in my objection—to a French manufacturer selling to the City of London houses the very goods which I make under these conditions. My goods are dyed with exactly the same dyeware as the French goods—a Swiss dyeware it may be and not a German product at all—yet, owing to the excessive price which we in Yorkshire have to pay for dyeware, my goods are 1d., 1½d., or 2d. per yard dearer than the French goods in London. I say that is not fair and that it is Protection upside down. In the very first speech which I made in this House I gave a concrete instance in regard to a Swiss dye, and I hope hon. Members opposite will not think I am dealing with this question simply in relation to the German

      793
      goods. On that occasion I gave the instance of a Swiss dye, very largely used in dyeing the ordinary navy blue costume cloths for women. The price at which the Swiss dye was freely offered was 3s. 9d. per lb., the dye users in England were compelled to pay 7s. 6d. per lb. for a similar article made in England. Although the present Minister of Health, replying on that Debate seven or eight months ago, said we could not give an instance where any article had been made dearer or anybody thrown out of work by the policy of the Board of Trade, it is significant that within a fortnight of my quoting that particular case the British dye maker was able to reduce his price from 7s. 6d. to 5s. 6d. per lb. for this particular dye.
      The fact still remains that Frenchmen are coming into England to-day and selling goods dyed with the very same dye-wares as those which we are using or, if not the same, dyewares which are just as good, and they are able to purchase those dyewares at prices much less than the prices at which we are getting them. That is a little bit of practical politics about unemployment. I have to correct some statements which were used by the Minister in the Debate of a week ago. We have in England a very influential body known as the Colour Users' Association, and a few months ago the hon. and gallant Member for Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury) informed the House that the Colour Users' Association approved of this Act. The hon. and gallant Member did not know, or had forgotten, that 18 months after the colour users had accepted the Act—I do not think they approved of it—they definitely stated at their annual meeting that the Act was seriously handicapping them in competition with the rest of the world. Only a week ago the right hon. Gentleman the Minister was engaged in a little passage with my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle), in which the question of a Biblical quotation arose, and the Minister said that a person who ought to know, namely the chairman of the Colour Users' Association, had given his testimony before the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, and the right hon. Gentleman added that, like Baalam, this gentleman had come to curse but remained to bless. The Minister quoted the chair-
      794
      man of the Colour Users' Association as follows:
      "I would like to pay a sincere tribute of admiration to the makers for their un-deviating progress in the production of dye-stuffs in the past few years, not only in the extension of production, but in the definite improvement in quality which has become more and more apparent…. We have been able to use 80 per cent. of British dyes where we used only 20 per cent. before without in any way reducing our standard."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th July, 1923; col. 2400, Vol. 166.]
      That is all very gratifying, and hon. Members who are not in the trade would take it that the chairman of the Colour Users' Association, my very good friend Mr. Sutcliffe Smith, who certainly does know what he is talking about and whose word I would take without hesitation as that of an authority, was approving of the methods of the Licensing Committee, but he spoke further at the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, and I have taken the trouble of looking up all that he said on the matter. I have not the actual quotation at hand, but I will send it to the Minister and the House can take it from me that Mr. Smith in the rest of his speech, while congratulating the British dyemakers on their progress, made the strongest possible protest against the methods of the Licensing Committee. He laid down what I have tried to lay down to-day, that the burden should be placed equally upon all taxpayers, that at all costs the dye users of this country should have access to the best dyes produced in the world, and that they should have access to those dyes at as low a price as their competitors anywhere in the world. In asking the Board of Trade to make that their policy in the future I am not asking for any favour. I do not think any of my Socialist friends who know me will think that I desire any Government interference. and I think any of my Protectionist friends will agree that I am the last man in the world to ask for Governmental favours. All I ask is that we should be put in a position at least as advantageous for getting our raw materials as the position of our competitors in Frnce and Italy. Let me emphasise my point by reference to that one particular item for two tons of dyestuffs in regard to which the policy of the Board of Trade was that our dye users should be penalised to the extent of £1,700. I know the Minister has multifarious duties to perform, but

      795
      I put the facts of this case before him. This particular lot of dye wares was on sale in Italy. It was a surplus lot which the Italians had got as reparation from Germany, and it was for sale at what may be termed a knock-out price. The particular difference of policy between the Board of Trade and those for whom I am speaking is that we say, if there was an extraordinarily cheap and excellent lot of raw material which could be used in the working of our industries, it was better for this country that we should get hold of that raw material than that Italy or France should get it. We had a dye user in Yorkshire wanting that dyeware and prepared to give work, and, of course, the amount of work which £1,70O or £2,000 worth of dyeware represents bears no relation to the amount of dyeware itself. We used to treat dyeware as being equal to about 1 per cent. of the finished products, and here is our Board of Trade, with that tiny percentage, putting on this burden. The financial burdens are serious enough, but the burdens of uncertainty, of delay, and of being at the mercy of a Government Committee are infinitely more harmful than the financial burdens.
      I know it is very easy to criticise, and that Government Departments are among the easiest things to criticise, but we in the textile trade, we users of colour, do not want to avoid our burdens at all and we have a positive policy. It is a policy which we shall continue to press on the Government, and we shall not allow this agitation in Manchester or Bradford to die down. We demand in common fairness, not what the motor car manufacturers are asking, not what the tyre makers are asking, namely, a 33⅓ per cent. duty against the foreigner, but we demand what is the very minimum of justice for any producer, any workman or capitalist in this country, namely, that he shall not be prevented from getting his raw material as cheaply as his foreign competitor unless the Board of Trade is prepared to guarantee that we shall keep up this agitation in the House and in the country. We want no subsidy, we only want equality with other people. We have not received much sympathy from the Board of Trade, and I do not know if our arguments will have any effect upon them. I was rather amused to read in the "Times" this morning a
      796
      description of the Finance Minister in India given by one of the Indian Members of the Legislature, and I am taking the liberty of quoting it in reference to the right hon. Gentleman. The Minister in India was said to have "a face like a cherub and methods like a tank." The right hon. Gentleman's methods of dealing with our agitation on this question have been somewhat on those of the tank in war-time. I appeal to him to consider seriously the appointment of a small non-political Committee to consider this matter. We do not wish to hamper, in any way, the manufacture of dye-wares in this country, nor do we wish to interfere with the security which lies in having dye works capable of being converted at short notice into manufacturies of munitions and chemical explosives, but I am not exaggerating when I say there is the strongest discontent in the colour using trades and, of course, the textile trade uses about 80 per cent. of the colour consumed in this country. There is the strongest discontent against what we feel to be the unfairness with which we are treated as compared with our competitors. I think it is a fair appeal. It is not every trade that comes down to this House and says that it does not want protection, and too much bureauracy. It is not every Member that is prepared to say that his constituents—working people—ask for no favours at all, and when a Member can appeal like I am doing at present and ask solely for the right of getting in the most important materials in the world—for after all this is the most important export trade that the country possesses, the textile export trade. I say that when all he does is to ask that he and others shall be able to buy on the same terms as our French and Italian friends, and then we are prepared not only to compete with them all over the world, but prepared to allow them equality with us in our own market, that equality that makes for peace and free trade and good will among the nations the world over, then I think the Minister might listen with some amount of sympathy to the appeal.
      During the last two or three weeks I have travelled something like 2,000 miles on the Continent of Europe. I have seen in these various countries the people at work. I saw no unemployment in France, practically none in Austria, none in Yugo-

      797
      Slavia, practically none in Italy. This country of ours is the Cinderella of the nations to-day so far as employment is concerned. In so far as my own trade is concerned I am pleading for the women and the children, for the unemployed father in the textile trade. It is with me and with others of us—I ask my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches to believe me for once—more a question of employment than a profit—of employment for our people. I maintain it is far more a question of providing work than of profit.
      Sir THOMAS ROBINSON: It is not my intention to speak at any length, but as chairman of the licensing committee I think it my duty to point out one or two things, and to reply, at least in part, to the speech to which we have just listened to from the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. H. H. Spencer). In the first place, I am sorry that my hon. Friend has not taken the trouble to post himself up in the facts, which are well known to all consumers of dye and to the producers in the general textile trades. The Bill was approved by the dye users. On 3rd December, 1920, it was submitted to a meeting of dye users, and practically unanimously approved. The Bill was examined in every line and every paragraph, and assent was given. The Government were notified of that assent, and the dye users supported the Bill through all its stages, so there can be no doubt about it that this Bill has had practically unanimous support of the colour users of this country.
      It must be within the recollection of hon. Members that on the face of the Bill there is a Government guarantee of prohibition for 10 years. On that guarantee we obtained approximately five millions of public money to run the industry. I submit that the Government are bound by that guarantee. So far as the colour users are concerned, they do not desire to go behind that. I shall refrain from saying what would convey information relative to this industry over to the Continent. I shall not be drawn into that, or into giving any information that might be detrimental to the British dye-making industry. But I can assure, my hon. Friend who has just sat down that there is a complete reply to what he has said this afternoon.
      Let me give to the House some particulars of our organisation and our method of dealing with licences. At the
      798
      present time approximately 94 per cent. of the applications for licences have been dealt with within four days of the application being received; 62 per cent. have been dealt with on the same day. I am glad, very glad, to say that we are receiving very few complaints. On the other hand, I believe my committee has the confidence of the users in this country. What is the question that the organisation has to answer to the satisfaction of the users in this country when substituting British for German dyes? That British substitute is a real substitute. We have asked the Users Association to appoint four members on the committee and the producers to appoint four members, and this forms an expert committee of men, and every dye substitute has to be unanimously approved by these eight gentlemen. Further, the consumers appointed an expert and the producers another, and these two experts are members of the licensing committee, and advise the committee of eight to which I have referred. What better organisation could be adopted? [Interruption.]
      I am not, let me say, a politician and I am not speaking as a politician. I am speaking, if I may say so, as one interested in the industry. The question of syndicates has been mentioned with the suggestion that our organisation favours a syndicate and that it is disadvantageous to the small consumer. There is absolutely no foundation for the statement. The small consumers have the same privileges because, as far as the Committee is concerned, they get exactly the same treatment as the large users. They get their dyes at the same price and at the same time as the large users. It is my duty, week in and week out, to keep all these various interests satisfied so far as I can, and, if there is any doubt about any matter, it is referred to the Committee. If we are told by the Committee of experts that certain colours must come in, we endeavour to satisfy the applicants. In some cases we do not grant leave for the full quantity applied for, but we are mindful in such cases to license a quantity to keep the industry running. I assure the House that every day in the week we are doing our very best to administer this Act. There are in the country, I believe, a number of purchasers who are what we term middle-men. Some of them during the War made pretty large fortunes. Some of them make a fair living dealing

      799
      with dyestuffs. It is quite true that some of these people have suffered. The trouble is this—and there is evidence for it—that France, Belgium and Italy are taking in reparation colours in larger volume than they can consume, or ever have consumed, and they sell the surplus outside to dealers. Some of our consumers occasionally come across these cheap lots and then they become very dissatisfied because they cannot purchase them at low prices. We have to run this industry in this country and this cannot be done without prohibition. British dyes to-day would not have succeeded to the point they have if they had not had prohibition, which is essential to the establishment of this industry. I want to say that every day we are marching nearer to the day when British dyes will be able to produce the largest volume of colour, of the best quality, and at the lowest price. Every week we have evidence of that. There has been marvellous progress made in the last three years, but the full development will require time. Colour users are practically unanimous in their support of the industry. My hon. Friend behind me has made the speech he has, but he does not know or he would not have said what he has done. The House may be assured in regard to the Licensing Committee.
      Mr. H. SPENCER: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me—
      Sir T. ROBINSON: Something has been said this afternoon about a certain colour having been applied for and not allowed. I know nothing about it, but I may tell the House and assure my hon. Friends that if details are sent to me within 12 hours the matter shall be dealt with. If any hon. Member of this House or elsewhere has any complaint to make, if he will write to me the matter shall be dealt with in 12 hours. I have undertaken this work, and I propose to carry it through. Very few letters have been received by us, but we always endeavour to deal with them. I ask the House on behalf of the Licensing Committee not to believe these fairy stories but to trust the Licensing Committee to administer the Act.
      Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: I do not propose to travel over the ground so well covered by my hon. Friend opposite, but I should like to answer a few of the complaints put forward. It has been said
      800
      by several hon. Members that the textile industry of this country is being ruined by the present scheme. Really to those of us who are consumers of dyes, and have been consumers in some cases for 25 or 30 years, the whole thing is too absurd to answer. I have given figures to this House time after time, and I am going to give them over again this afternoon. When I tell the House that on the production of 150 yards of cloth the total cost of the dye in the production of that cloth is only 3 per cent. of the whole, what folly is it to come forward and say that this licensing scheme is ruining the textile industry! If there were no licensing whatever the cost of the printed and dyed cloth would not come down one brass farthing.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:Then how do you account for the position?
      Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: I will tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Before the War the merchants had two industries in which they sold at lower prices, and they were the bleaching trade and the dyeing trade. At that time we were printing and dyeing at a price that it was impossible to make any profit upon, and if it had not been for the War you would have seen most of the printing and dyeing industries in this country go smash. But now prices have been put up the merchants come forward and say, "This licensing is ruining our trade." They say that grey cloth is going abroad, but that has been going on for the last 20 years.
      Let me take the case of Alsace and Lorraine. This cloth was sent there to be printed because we could not produce the same work owing to the water and the atmosphere and other conditions, and that trade will go to Alsace and Lorraine as long as we live. Take Holland. A certain amount of trade went to Holland, and it is going there to-day and will continue to do so, but if you take the average of the trade in cloth that went there before the War to be printed and dyed and compare it with the average that is going there now, you will find, practically speaking, no difference whatever. The dye industry is making very great strides. I am speaking here as a business man who has to make his money out of that trade. As a consumer, if I

      801
      thought this system was going to do anything to prevent me making a living, I should vote against it to-morrow. My hon. Friend opposite raised the question of the great amount of unemployment here, and compared it with the state of things abroad. He said that there is no unemployment in France, while we have a good deal of it here. The explanation is very simple. France is a vast agricultural country, and the men who have come back from the War are men who can work on the land, and a vast army of men have been drafted on to the land, and that is the real reason why there is no unemployment in France as compared with this country.
      Now where are the complaints coming from with regard to people not being able to get these dyes from abroad? When the War broke out nearly every alien in this country bought up all the colours he could, and these men, who had only a few shillings to bless themselves with before the War, sweated us in the price of these colours, and we shall never forget it. Complaints are coming now from the same agents that they cannot make a profit for themselves so long as they cannot import the colours here and sell them to us at an increased price. Those are the men who are complaining that they cannot get the colours. Only last night an hon. Member showed me a letter from a firm complaining of the way the Licensing Committee was operating. The letter stated that they were ruining the textile industry of this country I looked at the heading of the letter, and I said that that firm was only a small firm of agents in Manchester who were selling this colour before the War. They want to get hold of the surplus colours which are at present in foreign countries in order that they may undersell our colours in this country, and so throw our men out of employment.
      I appeal to hon. Members is it not better, even if we have to pay a slight advanced price for our colour, which will not make one iota of difference in the price of production of the cloth, to do that, and find employment for hundreds and thousands of men in this country. The dye works in this country have taken on a great number of men since the Ruhr question came on. I warned hon. Members of this House two years ago that if we ever have another war, I do not think
      802
      that we as consumers will ever allow ourselves to be placed in the same position as we were in during the Great War. What are the conditions now? You are getting no exportation of colour from the Ruhr to this country, and if you had an other war, you would have no German dyes at all. Therefore, an industry like the cotton trade must be self-contained with regard to the production of its own colours to allow us to carry on.
      This is not a Measure of Tariff Reform. It is not a Measure of Free Trade or Tariff Reform at all, but simply a Measure to enable us to carry on for a certain number of years, and it will never be asked for after, because in 10 years' time we shall be the biggest colour producing country in the world if we are only given the chance to compete against the unfair competition abroad. I would like to add my appreciation of the Board of Trade for sticking to their guns and for carrying this Measure through. What is going to happen now if you allow Germany free access to this market? To-day the colours that we cannot produce in this country the Germans are selling at sweating prices in France. The Germans are charging us to-day 8s. 6d. per lb. for colours which we cannot manufacture here, and the colours which we have been manufacturing here they are dumping at any price.
      Mr. PRINGLE: Why do we not take these colours in reparation?
      Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: Because if we take these colours from Germany we shall be ruining our own colour works here.
      Mr. PRINGLE: But you do not make them.
      Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: You cannot make here every colour that a country has been making for the last 50 years in six months' time. You have to allow a reasonable time to make them. For all the colours we cannot produce Germany is sweating this country and they wish to undersell us in regard to the colours we are making, and then she will bring down with a crash the dye works of this country, and once she has done that she has the trade in her hands as before the War, and she can put up the price of the cheaper colours, and what state then will your textile trade be in?
      Mr. PRINGLE: Why do we not take in reparation the colours which we do not make, and in regard to which Germany has a monopoly, and is selling at sweating prices?
      Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY: We take 25 per cent. of those colours that we cannot make in this country, but that is a reparation question and does not deal with this subject. It does not deal with the business position. My argument is that if this country once again allows Germany to smash our works and get possession of our colour production your textile trade is ruined once and for all.
      Mr. SHINWELL: However important the dye industry may be, it is hardly comparable to the importance of British trade and to the rehabilitation of that trade. I confess to a very great deal of amusement at the spectacle of business men quarrelling among themselves as to the merits or demerits of a particular Measure which has been passed by a former House and which operates in a particular industry. Surely it must be obvious that so long as the business men of this country have conflicting interests of that kind there is not the remotest possibility of restoring British trade to a normal condition of things. Hon. Members opposite have made reference to occasional trade disputes which in their judgment hamper British trade, but surely this conflict amongst commercial interests hampers British trade to an even greater degree than the industrial disputes which take place from time to time.
      I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) deserves our congratulations for having initiated a debate on such an important topic as this question of British trade. At the same time I do not think he is deserving of any praise for his consistency, or for the proposals he has submitted to the Government so far as their practical character is concerned. Perhaps the Committee can remember an occasion not many weeks ago when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea, in the course of a memorable speech, with his usual lucidity argued against State interference in industry or commerce. That was the whole burden of his song. He said, "Hands off industry, keep out of the ring. and do not inter-
      804
      fere," and yet to-day he argues from the beginning to the end of his speech for complete State interference. He supports the Trade Facilities Act, which he says is most needful, and he complains that credits are not furnished in sufficient quantity. We are told that we have not resumed our trade with Russia.
      We have also been told that the Government can afford to make bad debts, and it has been implied that it is right to enter into commerce and trade, and then he crowns all that by suggesting that the Government might spend hundreds of millions, not a paltry few millions, in the way of credits to British commerce and trade in their commercial relations abroad. I confess I cannot understand, neither can I appreciate the consistency of the right hon. Gentleman. Either the State must keep its hands off industry or, for reasons which are to be made clear, it must come in at this time. We on these benches believe that industry is in such an abnormal condition throughout the country that it is essential for the State at some point to come in. It has been suggested by the right hon. Member for Swansea, and also in an interesting and lucid speech delivered by the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Ellis), that there are political considerations involved. Undoubtedly that is so. The Government must be expected to deal with the political considerations before trade can be restored to its normal condition. I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will be able to impress the Government with that fact.
      It is said that we on these benches are unconcerned about the restoration of British trade. I admit that, in the course of speeches made from these benches and outside as well, the point of view we have to present to the country may have created an erroneous impression. What are the facts? We recognise that within the four corners of the existing system we are all, in whatever quarter of the House we sit, interested in British trade and commerce, both at home and abroad. We on these benches would like to change that system, but the pleasure of doing that must be deferred until some future time. We accept certain inevitable facts consequent on the system. We are anxious to restore trade. The problem divides itself into two parts—foreign trade and

      805
      home trade. With regard to foreign trade—it is quite a misconception, quite a misunderstanding—it displays a complete lack of knowledge of the situation, to argue, as the right hon. Member for Swansea did this afternoon, that if the Government, acting in conjunction with other Governments abroad, can settle the problems of Central Europe, trade will revive. It is equally a mistake to imagine that if you restore your trade relationship with Russia you will solve your industrial or trade problems here.
      I do not want to minimise the importance either of a European settlement or of the resumption of trade relations with Russia, but hon. Members appear to forget—and this is a point which I think constitutes the most formidable menace against British commerce for many a long day—that Great Britain is no longer the chief manufacturing nation of the world. That is an important consideration. What are the basic industries of this country? I ventured last Wednesday, in the Debate on the Board of Trade Vote, to make reference to certain industries as our basic industries. I do not want now to go into details. Our basic industries are, broadly, coalmining, shipbuilding and engineering, and the shipping service. [Interruption.] I do not want to be misunderstood. I want the House to consider the question from the point of view that the actual quantity of production is not the matter which is of most importance to the nation. I submit, therefore, that the shipping services—notwithstanding their lesser importance as far as revenue is concerned—are still extremely important from a national commercial standpoint. Coalmining is gradually being restored to its normal condition.
      But take the shipbuilding and engineering industries. One cause of the slackness in that industry is undoubtedly the handing over of a large number of vessels as a result of the Versailles Treaty. Do not let us trouble ourselves however about causes, whether they are immediate or remote. We have to get at the facts and to try to find a solution for the problem. Let me put this to hon. Gentlemen with regard to shipping. Thousands and hundreds of thousands of men who have been employed in the past in the shipbuilding and engineering
      806
      industries are idle to-day. Our shipping yards are doing nothing. The slips are empty. In my judgment it will take years, if ever it can be done, to restore the shipbuilding industry to its normal condition. Why? Japan does not want our vessels; she can build them herself. Other nations can build their vessels.
      How then are you going to restore our shipbuilding industry? How are you going to employ the men who have in the past been employed in that industry? How are you going to provide for the shopkeeping classes who are dependent for their livelihood upon the men and women whose livelihood is concerned. in the shipbuilding industry? How are you going to provide for all those who were dependent on that industry in this country? The same thing applies to other industries, many of which have gone, perhaps never to return. How are these people to be dealt with? The right hon. Member for Swanssea thought he was submitting new ideas and proposals when he said—he denied that he was pessimistic, but at any rate he seemed most lugubrious—that you will have to electrify your railways, you will have to add one or two commissioners to the Electricity Commission. But these are not solutions of the problem. They may lead to the employment of a few more men. They may build up a small industry or two, but they do not touch the heart of the problem, which is that a great part of your foreign trade has gone, never, I fear, to reappear. We have to face that fact. You may settle the Ruhr problem, but your foreign trade will never be the same again. You have too many competitors to-day. You may settle your Russian problem, but it will not solve your own problem.
      What is the remedy? I say that within the four corners of the existing system the remedies are very simple, and not even heroic as some people imagine. You will have to accept simple domestic remedies. Take for example again the men in the shipbuilding and engineering industries. They cannot be re-employed in those industries. They cannot be kept on the dole. It is deplorable they should be on the dole. You have to find new occupations for them. How are you to do that? Production depends on consumption. That is your trouble. If you have got in this country hundreds of

      807
      thousands of persons who are not consuming all that they might consume you are bound to have bad trade.
      Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: Ships must be used, and does not the hon. Gentleman think that we can produce ships cheaper than our competitors? Cannot we expect in that way to get some of our trade back?
      Mr. SHINWELL: The hon. Member will pardon me but I think I have some little knowledge of that industry. I am quite satisfied—and I feel sure the hon. Member will agree with me—that it is not a mere question of cheapness. That has nothing to do with the situation just now. As a matter of fact ships are not required. The United States of America are not likely to purchase ships from this country no matter how cheaply we can produce them, for the simple reason that they have more than they know what to do with. [An HON. MEMBER: "They cannot send them to sea!"] That is a very interesting question. The truth is that America has been making very laborious efforts to establish a mercantile marine, but it has never come off. That, however, does not help us. It is not a question of cheapness at all. It is a bigger question, and I am satisfied that the shipowners of this country do not refuse to build ships merely because of the cost. I was told by a prominent shipowner some weeks ago, with regard to a liner which was being constructed at a cost of £1,750,000, and which could have been built prior to the War for about £500,000, that the trouble was that, no matter how low the cost, the vessel would never earn sufficient to recoup the firm for their capital expenditure. In fact, vessels cannot earn enough money because of the great competition which is going on.
      Remedies are to be found not in one country or another, but in all countries You cannot take this question and say that if you settle the Ruhr question or the Russian question that will end the trouble. It will not end the trouble to appoint one or two more Electricity Commissioners, or even to build a few hundred thousand houses. You want to have a national stocktaking and see exactly
      808
      where you stand, and if the commercial interests of this country could recognise the advisability of that course of action, it would be far better than all the senseless commercial rivalry which is saddling us with these present difficulties. I submit there is nothing more important than that we should concentrate our attention on the restoration of British industry, keeping in mind the great possibilities of more industrial development. In that connection, you must not forget the question of land, or of land reclamation. A great deal more might be done in that direction. The hon. Member for Wakefield suggested that we could not be self-supporting or self-sufficient. I quite agree, but we have never yet explored the possibilities of self-sufficiency. That is what we have to do.
      Mr. ELLIS: I do not want to be misunderstood, but I was pointing out the difficulties, say, of weather and soil, which get in the way of one being self-supporting.
      Mr. SHINWELL: The essential thing is to sit down and ascertain how far you can go. You have not done that yet. If you want to make the best of your capital system you must ascertain for yourselves how far the nation can go in the way of industrial development. Do not imagine you have explored to the full all possibilities of trade in this country. I hope that, as a result of this Debate to-day, we are not going to confine ourselves to the merits of housing and home or foreign conditions. They are not to be compared with the great broad question of British trade. There are greater issues before the country than those which have been referred to. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade presented to us an appalling picture last week. The House does not realise, the country does not understand the position. You who represent the Government have the greatest responsibility on this question of trade. You have to provide something for next winter, or the problems which have been worrying this House for the last six months will be intensified and aggravated, and probably you will not be able to deal with them at all when the time comes.
      7.0 P.M.
      Mr. GOULD: I should like to congratulate the hon. Gentleman who has

      809
      just spoken on the manner in which he has expressed his own and his party's ideas on a technical question. As a shipbuilder, I must join issue with him on the general principles of his argument. In the first place, we had a revival of the general shipbuilding industry which promised, some six or nine months ago, to be continuous and lasting. We then had the Ruhr trouble, and contracts and orders promised fell off. We had in many yards a large number of orders. In one with which I am connected we had four orders. We have delivered, after a great deal of trouble and in very difficult circumstances, one ship, and I have had to close the yard down this week with three ships to complete, not because of any action of the Board of Trade or of the condition of the country, but simply because, in violation of an agreement reached between employers and men, a certain section of the workmen walked out in defiance of an agreement entered into by their own governing body. Thousands of men have been thrown on the streets in the shipbuilding industry to-day through the action of the boilermakers in coming out on an unofficial strike. The Board of Trade is not responsible for that.
      Mr. TURNER: That is not true.
      Mr. GOULD: I believe I am in order in making that statement, and I challenge any contradiction of it. The facts are absolutely correct. With regard to the shipbuilding industry, the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) drew a very doleful picture. He told us, practically, that there was no prospect of the shipbuilding industry in this country ever getting back to the condition in which it was before the War. He said we could not do so because other countries did not want ships and because America had so much tonnage available for use, and was capable of building so much, that we should have to find other occupation for the men who were formerly engaged in engineering and shipping. Nothing of the kind. If we can only get peace in industry, there is even the prospect to-day that we can, by foregoing profits as shipbuilders have been doing, and are prepared to do, get orders and put these men back to work. What is the position? Having been connected all my life with the shipping and shipbuilding
      810
      industry, I can say that there is not a single country in the world to touch us so far as shipbuilding quality is concerned. Notwithstanding all the conditions of labour and other considerations, there is not a country that can turn out a cheaper or a better ship than we can. Even under the conditions of trade to-day, we can turn out a ship in comparison and competition with any country in the world; and a better ship. American shipping! Fifteen million tons has to be subsidised out of that which is afloat today, and the 11 or 12 million tons of shipping, tied up in American ports, not only rotting but rotten, will never go to sea to compete with us.
      There is another factor to be considered when we talk of the conditions of the shipbuilding trade. There are between five and seven million tons of shipping afloat to-day which in the ordinary course of events would have been scrapped in trade. It is obsolete tonnage which cannot work at a profit in competition with modern vessels, and, when the hon. Member for Linlithgow says that we cannot compete to-day, I wish to challenge him, because I know that last year and to-day the ships with which I have the privilege of being associated, despite the conditions, were and are able to trade in competition and not lose money. I quite admit at once that the difficulties of the British shipping industry are numerous and complex. We have not been assisted as we should have been by the Board of Trade or the Government. That is a past story. Because of the position taken up by the whole of the country towards shipowners during the War and the profits they were supposed to have made, and which they set aside for provision against the bad days that they knew were to come, which unfortunately, have come and have ruined and broken many a man who thought he was wealthy, it has been anathema to raise anything in connection with shipping in this House. The result is that legislation has been imposed on the industry which has had the effect of retarding its development. We have seen recently in the Fees Bill an enormous increase of charges which we cannot afford in normal times, and much less in the circumstances in which we trade today. It is the honest endeavour of every decent British shipowner to-day, despite the falling-off in the carrying

      811
      trade and the difficulties which exist in collecting freights between one country and another, to keep his ships afloat and going, because we know that although, if we lay them up, we may lose from £400 to £500 a month, if we only lose £200 or £300 a month by keeping them afloat we are saving money and creating employment.
      The position to which the hon. Member for Linlithgow referred in Germany and the Ruhr is naturally one which must give us very great concern. I for one thoroughly agree with the President of the Board of Trade in his remarks last week as to the pessimistic outlook at the present moment, particularly so in the iron and steel trades, in the coal trade, and I believe I can say also in the carrying trade. If the Ruhr. situation were settled to-morrow, there could be no prospect of any increase in the volume of trade, but there would be, on the other hand, a very serious set back in the industrial conditions of this country. Despite the best efforts of every man in this country, regardless of party or creed, I cannot possibly conceive how we can avoid a position towards the end of the year which will seriously increase the number of unemployed in this country. Nothing mortal man can do will get away from it. Whether conditions in Europe remain the same or are altered by a settlement, conditions must get worse. Let us take the coal trade, one of the stable industries of the country. What is the position? In the first six months of this year we exported something like 10 or 12 million tons more to France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, and Denmark than in the corresponding period of last year. That trade has gone off in the last two or three months. Because of the demand for that coal, high prices prevailed. Now the prices have come down, and because it takes two months between the end of the month and the period of ascertainment of the wages, we are going to see a period of false prosperity when miners' hopes will be raised by increased wages and suddenly dashed to the ground in the winter months by decreased wages because of decreased profits. Hon. Members may think that I regard lower prices as an indication of increased trade. I regard it as one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the country that we
      812
      should have had a false period of prosperity such as we have had, with high prices for a short period, giving false hopes to people who are entitled by every circumstance to expect that they will get a permanent condition of better wages.
      If the Ruhr situation be settled tomorrow what will be the position? Our coal orders will fall off, and shipping will fall off because there will be less for us to carry. We shall be inundated with the products of cheap labour from the enormous factories that have been erected in Germany and the Ruhr in the last two or three years. I do not believe the House realises the position of the Ruhr to-day. I have had an opportunity to obtain information at first hand from a reliable source as to what is taking place in Germany. Our steel trade, with which we have prospered and done so well in the past, stands in the position of being well nigh taken from us by the conditions of manufacture at present prevailing in the Ruhr, and which shall be on a competitive basis in the future. The German people have utilised the resources and wealth of their country, not in the reconstitution and reconstruction of their immense factories, but in rebuilding with the most up-to-date and economical plant on such a basis that they cannot only compete with us but can deliver their goods to us at something like two-thirds of the cost of production in this Country. I am talking of basic industries. France is doing the same, and there is no doubt whatever that the struggle between the two countries is one which to the outsider in business and not to the politicians is one of domination and control of markets and world-trade as it was before. I admit it quite frankly, and it does seem to me that because of the conditions with which we are faced and the lack of unity between both sides—because both capital and labour are to blame for that, I admit—and because of the lack of appreciation of the difficulties, we are going slowly and steadily backwards in the race in which we have to take a part as we need our export trade for building business. To go back to the steel trade again, I find that Germany to-day, or if the occupation of the Ruhr ceased, could send their steel here and put us in such a position that we would immediately have to close down the bulk of our blast furnaces.
      Mr. HARDIE: They are closed down already.
      Mr. GOULD: We have a good many going. It is all very well to blame the Government for its inaction. It is also very well to say that you have remedies, but the hon. Member for Linlithgow has not given in his speech a single remedy except to say that we have to find other means of production. It seems to me a fatuous argument to say that this condition is going to arise, and then, after discussing it seriously and making admissions that I never expected him to make, to say that we shall have to get over the difficulties by finding other means of production. What is the position we have to face? Our position is that, no matter what we try to do or do, the demands of the country for raw material and food to sustain us are such that we must export in exchange a correspondingly large amount of goods if we are to maintain the trade balance of the country and not go bankrupt. If we are not to be, as the hon. Gentleman said, one of the premier manufacturing countries in the world, if we are not going to have big exports, how are we to avoid bankruptcy? Certainly not by obtaining some other means of production; certainly not by encouraging home consumption in this country, because, if there is no market for the goods which we must sell for our very national existence, how can there be the wherewithal to consume that which is manufactured at home by the people of this country? It seems to me that that is no remedy.
      I thoroughly agree that other means will have to be found in substitution for those industries which have fallen into decay or disuse, but, on the other hand, hon. Members opposite, in the course of their arguments in Debates, take various points of view—points of view to suit the occasion. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) took to-day a strangely economic point of view. His speech might have been a speech from this side of the House. On the other hand, a few days ago hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench, leaders of the Labour party, took a point of view which is strangely inconsistent with that. They took the uneconomic point of view that in every possible way we must, by subsidy or subvention, maintain unprofitable pits and
      814
      collieries, and pretty nearly every industry in the country, in order to create employment. This afternoon we heard an entirely different story from the hon. Member for Linlithgow. He took to task the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) because he suggested State aid for certain undertakings which might be termed national undertakings. I did not laugh at the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) when he suggested a tunnel under the Humber. That is by no means a bad proposition, and it is a thing that will have to be done. We have to take into consideration this great fact, that, if we are going to be a competitive nation—and we have to be if we are going to maintain our existence and keep our heads above water—we must do everything, both privately and publicly, to reduce the cost of production and to expedite production in our manufacturing industries.
      It is impossible, as conditions are today, with the policy of deflation that the Government is pursuing, making credit difficult, making the obtaining of money from the public for industrial undertakings almost impossible with any prospect of profit that can be held out as an inducement to the prospective investor—it is impossible to undertake schemes which, when carried through, may or may not be profitable, but which, as national undertakings, will be of very great benefit, and will have a very great bearing upon the success of every other industry, and induce a very great amount of employment in many scores of trades. Mention has been made this afternoon of high railway rates, and we admit and we know that both dock and railway rates are factors which contribute to a very great extent to the dissatisfaction of the people of this country, and to retarding trade development. How are we going to reduce them? It is never admitted that increased wages play a big part in increased rates and charges. That is never thought of; it is always because the railway companies are making large profits, and no allusion whatever is made to the fact that wages have increased by, I believe, something like 200 to 250 per cent. in the railway world. Railway and dock charges are very material factors, but, if we could get our railways electrified, and our docks and harbours electrically

      815
      equipped for quicker handling of goods than is possible to-day, a very great step would have been taken towards meeting the competition of other countries. It is possible in America, for instance, to transport coal a distance of 1,000 miles more cheaply than it is possible to transport it in this country for 50 miles. That is what we have to face in competition with other nations.
      Mr. BROAD: Are they paid less wages or more in America?
      Mr. GOULD: That is what we have to face. There is no getting away from the fact that, as long as other countries have economical and efficient transport, we must lose unless we place ourselves in the same position. If the railway companies cannot raise money for these undertakings, why should not the State come forward and assist, not in subsidising or giving subventions to the companies, but in guranteeing the undertakings for a certain period of time, making the management of the undertaking or company responsible for the payment of the money? We have had experience of that in connection with loans or advances by banks. In these days the banks, because of the state of trade, are not in a position to make the loans that they would ordinarily make, and, wherever a loan is made by a bank to any undertaking, there is a responsibility for the repayment of the loan, by way of an assurance given by the company, on its record, that it is able to manage its undertaking in such a way as to ensure profitable working and a return on capital. If we have that, I see no reason why the State should not undertake schemes which, in the course of the next two or three years, would add materially to the cheapness of production and help materially in the development of the industries of the country.
      We have heard very little lately as to what has really happened to those Departments which have been absorbed into the Board of Trade within the last 12 months or two years. One notices, for instance, that the Ministry of Shipping still has a large number of employés; one notices that remnants of the Food Control Department are still in existence; and we also notice that the Disposal
      816
      Board, for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible, is still in existence, and is moving but very slowly towards extinction. There is also the Shipping Liquidation Committee. I know something about shipping, at any rate, and it seems to me that it would not, and should not, under whatever circumstances, and despite the largeness of the business, take all these many years to wind up that business. I know it can be said that claims cannot be ascertained for two or three years, and I know from practical experience that sometimes a period of three years does elapse before claims can be finally ascertained; but there is no reason for the retention of such a large number of people in that Department, and I submit most respectfully that there is something wanting if the Committee cannot be wound up more quickly. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will be able to give us some assurance that the Government intend seriously to undertake the consideration of works which will be productive, even though violating to some extent the canon of not undertaking any work by the State, and so providing material for a charge of taking the first steps in Socialism. We have to put, before every other consideration, the interest of the public, and I believe that, by supplying the necessary driving force for capital undertakings in various industries, which will improve their efficiency, we shall be going a very long way towards helping to meet the difficulties which we shall have to face in the winter, and towards strengthening our position in free, open competition in world trade, so that we may be able to compete with our neighbours abroad on equal or level terms.
      Sir JOHN SIMON: I should like to ask the attention of the House to another subject, which, I venture to think, is of considerable importance, which is not in any sense a party subject, and which it is proper to raise in connection with the Board of Trade Vote. I refer to the treatment which is being meted out to the property of individuals who are British-born, under the Treaty of Versailles. It is within the knowledge of the House that, as that Treaty is drawn, and, indeed, as it is at present operated, there are oases of very great hardship, which have been thought worthy of the attention both of the House of Lords and of

      817
      Members of this House, without distinction of party at all. It seems to me that singularly little time has been occupied in this House in discussing a matter which is undoubtedly of great importance, and in connecton with which a good deal of hardship is inflicted on a number of people with whom, I think, British subjects ought to sympathise. They are men and women, and, perhaps, especially women, who come from families in our own land, who are British-born, and who—and usually it is the case of a woman who has married, it may be long before the War, a Hungarian, or an Austrian, or a German—are finding that their property, although it comes from their British relatives, although it is derived entirely from their connection with Britain, is being forfeited under the Treaty of Versailles.
      I say that this is not a party question because I notice that, when it was discussed in another place, one of the speeches was made, Mr. Speaker, by your predecessor in the Chair, Lord Ullswater, and some of the most serious cases brought to the attention of the House of Lords were dealt with by Members of that House who could not be suspected of the slightest desire to be weak or unduly sympathetic with the hard case of a defeated enemy. Let me give to the House two instances, because it is easier to follow an instance than a general argument, which show how the Treaty of Versailles, if its strict terms be carried out, has in fact operated. I will take, first, one case which was actually quoted by Lord Ullswater in the other House. There was a Scotchwoman who married an Austrian—and I should, perhaps, say that he was a colonel in the Austrian Army—as long ago as 1867. She went over to Austria after her marriage to live with her husband. They had one child, a daughter, and, almost immediately after the birth of this child, the father died, and his widow and her baby came back to this country. They settled down here, mother and daughter, both of them in point of family, in point of speech, and in point of associations, purely Scotch, and they have never been back to Austria since. Such property as they had in their family was derived entirely from Scotch relatives, but technically the mother, of course, had become an Austrian subject. I do not know whether she was actually to be blamed because she did not take
      818
      steps before the War to change her nationality, but there she was, a Scotchwoman living among her Scotch relatives with her Scotch daughter in this country, with property which was the result of the accumulation or benevolence of her Scotch relatives. Everything went on happily until, shortly after the War broke out, the mother died, having left a will in which she gave the property, as was natural, to her daughter. What does the Treaty of Versailles do with that property? It says to the daughter, "Although this property comes from your Scotch relatives, although your mother was in point of origin and associations a British subject, although you, the daughter, have no recollection of your father, for he died when you were a child a few months old, although you have never lived in Austria since that moment, your property is forfeit to the British custodian under the terms of the Treaty which was made between this country and Austria." Everyone can see that that kind of case is a hard case, and I am not saying at all that provision has not been made in a certain measure to deal with it; but the question which I ask the House to consider is, whether the provision that has been made is anything like adequate. Let me take a second example. It happens also to be the case of an Austrian and a Scotchwoman. The Austrian came to this country at the age of 15. He carried on his life here. He married a Scotch girl. This happened long ago, but the two of them are still living and they are about 70 years old. These people in course of time set up a hotel, which they carried on by their own energy and I have not the slightest doubt the wife, with her Scotch traditions and thrift, has been quite as much responsible for the success of the hotel as her husband, and here these people are, living under British law, believing that this was a place where accumulated savings were safe, but as the result of the operation of the Treaty which was made at the end of the War their hotel, which represents their life work here in our island, has been compulsorily seized and sold and has realised some £13,000, and all that is left to these people is a compassionate grant of £1,000 apiece. I want to ask whether we ought really to be content, without at any rate asking for a little more explanation and, I hope, reconsideration, with the opera-

      819
      tion of a Treaty which in cases of that sort produces such undoubtedly hard results.
      May I point out how this thing comes about. If I go back it is merely for the purpose of clearness of exposition. Of course, nothing is better established than that a civilised community, apart from the express stipulations of Treaties, has no right whatever to forfeit or to confiscate the property of an individual who is living inside the community merely because that individual is the subject of a State with which we were at war. That is an elementary principle which every civilised State has been expected to recognise for centuries. I should like to give two quotations. Lord Finlay, whose authority on this subject matter is recognised by everyone, laid it down in a judgment which he gave in 1918:
      "It is not the law of this country that property of enemy subjects is confiscated. Until the restoration of peace the enemy can, of course, make no claim to have it delivered up to him, but when peace is restored he is considered as entitled to his property with any fruits which it may have borne in the meantime."
      No one can doubt that that is a well-established practice as between civilised nations, apart of course from the express provisions of a Treaty. The other quotation I wish to give is from Lord Birkenhead, who in 1919, laying down the law in the House of Lords, said:
      "It is a familiar principle of English law that the outbreak of war effects no confiscation or forfeiture of enemy property."
      So we start with this, that if it had not been for the terms of the Treaties which have been made there can be no question at all that the distinction would have been drawn, as it is ordinarily drawn, between the liabilities of a State and the right's of a subject and that we should have recognised that people who live in this country and under our law and pay our taxes as individuals are, apart from Treaty stipulations, entitled to the private property which belongs to them, even though they are enemies.
      How did it come about? It came about because amongst the very elaborate provisions of the Treaty of Versailles there is a provision which works out in this extraordinary way. Here let me draw a distinction. For my part I do not see anything to complain of; on the
      820
      contrary, it has seemed to me a businesslike and sensible arrangement to provide, as we do in these treaties, that you may set off debts which are due from British traders in this country to Germans against debts which are due by Germans to British traders. There is no reason at all that I can see, in good sense or in fairness, why you should not make an arrangement by which you discover at the end of the War the different cases in which there are debts owing from individuals who are British subjects in this country to German firms or companies or individuals in Germany, and that then, instead of paying those sums of money in the ordinary way, you should set up a clearing house and get those sums of money paid into a fund, and that fund should be available in order to meet the claims which British subjects have against Germans in Germany. That is a thoroughly sensible arrangement.
      But the Treaty of Versailles went further and contained a financial provision so ingenious that I can only attribute it, I will not say to Mr. McKenna, but to the Postmaster-General. No other mind could possibly have been so ingenious. It is a provision that you shall not merely secure this fund, out of which the claims that British subjects have against Germans may be discharged, by intercepting and collecting the moneys which are owed by British subjects to Germans, but that you should proceed to lay hold of any scrap of property which belongs to any German, Austrian or Hungarian in this country, and you should not only make that answer for the claims of British subjects against individuals in those different countries, but you should even make the private property of one of these ladies to whom I have referred, who is only, let us say, an Austrian subject because long ago she married an Austrian, available to pay any claims which anyone has against any German or any Hungarian. It is a most extraordinary principle.
      The provision is so extraordinary that the different Powers associated with us in the framing of the Treaty have in more cases than one found it necessary to alter it. I notice, for example, that Belgium is so conscious of the hardship which is inflicted upon women who are

      821
      Belgian born, but who none the less find their property forfeited because they have married into one or the other of the enemy nationalities, that she has exempted altogether from seizure the property which belongs to Belgian-born women and which comes to them in their rights as Belgians. If that were so in this country we should not be inflicting this grave hardship upon a number of individuals who are British in every sense, but that they had the misfortune, if it is a misfortune, to marry the man of their choice at a time when they could not anticipate future events, and he turned out to be ultimately of the country of our enemies. I see that the United States of America, which had exactly the same rights we have, has, I believe, in the course of the present year passed an Act of Congress which, as I understand it, has exempted from the operation of this Clause of the Treaty the property of individuals notwithstanding that they are enemies if they are American-born. I believe they have gone further, and they are protecting the property of individuals, whoever they may be, who are actually resident in the United States, because it appears to me to be a very curious proposition that you should accept an individual not merely as a visitor, a stranger who is within your gates, but as one of your own community for all purposes, and yet you should turn round on him or her when the war is over and say, "These things do not in the least matter. Now the war is over I am going to forfeit your private property."
      I came across an instance the other day, which has been discussed before the Supreme Tribunal of the land, which illustrates the extraordinary way in which the Treaty works, very graphically, indeed. It is one of those difficult cases which lawyers have to deal with, which involve the subject of double nationality. There are a number of people living in this island who, by British law, are British subjects, but who, by some foreign law, may at the same time be regarded as subjects of a foreign country. You had such cases during the War. You had the case, for example, of the man whose mother was here at the moment when he was born and who, therefore, by English law is regarded as British. But, at the same time, if his father was a German, German law would regard him as
      822
      German. That is a case of double nationality. How did we deal with such a person when the War was on? He was treated as a British subject. He served in the Army. He was required, under the Military Service Acts, to serve in the Army even if he had not volunteered to do so, as some of them did. It was no good while the War was on for such an individual to come forward and say "I am a person of double nationality. It is true I am British from one point of view, but I am German from another." While the War was on we said, "We care nothing about your German nationality. It is your British nationality that we are interested in, and you must serve like every other British subject." That may be quite right, but when the War is over, and when the question arises whether you are going to forfeit his property, and he says, "I am of double nationality; I may be German by German law, but I am British by British law"—is it right to say to that same individual, "I care nothing about that. I am not interested in your British ntaionality. I am now going to forfeit your property, because you are a German." I cannot believe it is in the interests of the honour and good faith of this country that we should allow the Treaty to be thus interpreted and applied. It was so interpreted by the House of Lords within the last month, and it is being so applied, and the question I wish to bring to the attention of the House is the way in which the discretion is being exercised by the Government, and more particularly by the Department of the right hon. Gentleman opposite which deals with these matters.
      The Treaty of Versailles, and the corresponding Treaties with Austria and Hungary, contained this extremely severe penal provision which will automatically expose all this private property, be it small or great, to the burden which the Treaties put upon it. But before the Treaty became operative in this country it was necessary to carry an Act of Parliament which was called, the Treaty of Peace Act and to make an Order in Council which is called the Treaty of Peace Order, which contains a provision that "all property, rights and interests within His Majesty's Dominions or Protectorates belonging to German nationals at the date when the Treaty comes into force are hereby charged, etc." But it also contains, very properly, a provision

      823
      that "any particular property, rights or interests so charged may at any time, if His Majesty thinks fit, be released from the charge so created." That is what makes this proper to be raised on this occasion because it lies within the discretion of the Government and of the Board of Trade to say in what cases and to what extent this undoubtedly harsh provision is to be relaxed. The right hon. Gentleman has been asked a number of questions about this. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) has been persistent in well doing, as have my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) and others, and we are obliged to them. The answer which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, or his Under-Secretary, gives is this. He says to the House of Commons: "This is all in the hands of Lord Justice Younger's Committee, and surely you cannot imagine anybody more likely to do it fairly and rightly than Lord Justice Younger. We have handed it over to this impartial body, and this impartial body advises us how we are to act." I would be the first to recognise that Lord Justice Younger's Committee is a most admirably constituted body, but—
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I would not like the right hon. Gentleman to answer a case which I do not propose to make. Lord Justice Younger's Committee carries out the Regulations laid down by the Government, but there is no discretion to go beyond those Regulations, and the attack on the Regulations should be made entirely, I think, against myself and the Government, and not at all in respect to the action of Lord Justice Younger's Committee.
      Sir J. SIMON: I wish the right hon. Gentleman would communicate with his Under-Secretary, for I have here an answer which was given by the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary to the Board of Trade on 23rd July to a question which I put to him. I thought, as I gather that the President himself thinks, that it is not true, that it is not seemly, or decent, or accurate, to suggest that this matter is entirely to be. referred to Lord Justice Younger's Committee, and that therefore the Government are
      824
      relieved from having to answer for what they are doing. I, therefore, put this question to the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary:
      "Does not the Treaty confer on the British Government the right and the duty of exempting the property in cases in which the application of the Treaty would produce these shocking consequences?"
      What was the answer given by the colleague of the right hon. Gentleman? Did he say, "That is a matter which the Government must justify, and we will not pray in aid Lord Justice Younger's Committee"? No. What the Noble Viscount said was this:
      "It has been decided that each case must be dealt with on its merits, and cases are referred to the Committee over which Lord Justice Younger presides."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd July, 1923; col. 31; Vol. 167.]
      I want to call attention to the fact that, as a matter of fact, Lord Justice Younger's Committee has an extremely limited power, and cannot go outside it.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Hear, hear!
      Sir J. SIMON: I know very well the right hon. Gentleman would never think of throwing the blame on anybody else. The Committee consists, I believe, not only of Lord Justice Younger, but of the hon. and learned Member for Londonderry (Sir M. Macnaghten), and it also includes the hon. and gallant Member for Reigate (Brigadier-General Cockerill). If I may presume to say so, there are not two Members of the House, and I doubt if there are three people in the country, to whose good sense and judgment in a matter of this sort I would more willingly trust, but what are the limits of the power which they are exercising? It is laid down that the applicant for this compassionate relief must have been a resident here before the War if the full relief is given, and that the applicant must be necessitous, which means that you claim the right to forfeit the property of a British-born woman who has married an Austrian or a German if she has a good deal of property, and even when these conditions are satisfied, I understand that if the individual is resident here, the individual, as a maximum, cannot get more than £1,000 capital out of the whole of the capital forfeited. On the other hand, if the applicant is not resident here, there is this amazing distinction: If the appli-

      825
      cant is a British-born woman, who has committed the offence of marrying a German, then the applicant as a maximum might get £500, but, on the other hand, if the applicant is a British-born woman, who has committed the different offence of marrying an Austrian or a Hungarian many years ago, the applicant cannot get more than £200.
      I should very much like to know on what conceivable principle of justice or good sense this differentiation is made. I know why it is done. It is done for a reason which I venture to say, with all responsibility, is a mean reason. It is done because the fund which is available to meet claims in the case of Austrians or Hungarians is in so serious a financial state that it is thought it is wrong to be as generous in the case of a British-born lady who is the wife or widow of an Austrian or a Hungarian as in the case of one who has married a German. That, surely, is a most ridiculous and, indeed, a most insulting differentiation, and I cannot believe that anybody who approaches this question, not in the spirit of a debt collector, but in the spirit of a statesman who wants to see his country's reputation stand high in dealing with these grave matters, is really going to justify that distinction. I would point out that while I have dealt with Germans, Austrians, and Hungarians, there remain the Turks. There is something to be done by waiting. The Turks, I understand, have now got a Treaty known as the Treaty of Lausanne, and I observe, by such examination as I have been able to make of its terms, that the Turk, at any rate, has avoided these inconvenient controversies. If you can produce an English or a Scottish woman who has committed the rather rash act of joining the family establishment of a Turk, she, at any rate, is going to remain with her ancestral possessions.
      I want to call attention to these matters, because they are really not party matters at all, and I hope that in nothing that I have said it will be supposed that I do not recognise that the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the. Government would in this matter desire to administer the Treaty as fairly and properly as they can, but I think this matter has got too much into the hands of some compartment, or Department, which is not looking at it in a broad way. If you look
      826
      at it in a broad way, I think you might perhaps think it well to bear these points in mind. There have been cases where property has been brought under this Clause, where it has been appropriated and confiscated, and actually represents money that has been put into the British Savings Bank, the Post Office Savings Bank, by some enemy alien. Is it a wise thing, is it a dignified thing, is it a thing that is really going to inure to the credit and the reputation of this country to say, "Here we are, people are free to come here and live under our laws. We do not expel them; we only require them to obey the law and pay the taxes. If they like to save, their savings are theirs, and there is no place where you can put your money so safely as in the Post Office Savings Bank. But, mind you, when we administer the Treaty of Versailles, we will confiscate your money, and now you shall realise what really is meant by the wise administration of the law"?
      I cannot believe that, looking at the thing as it ought to be looked at, in a broad way, it can be a desirable thing to do such acts as that or to produce that impression, and as far as I am concerned I claim most boldly that in raising this question in this House, as Lord Buckmaster raised it in the other House, I do it because, like everybody else in this House, I love my country and I want my country in this matter to come out of the administration of this Treaty with a reputation which does not belie the great reputation that Great Britain has always enjoyed. The answer which is put from what I call the debt-collecting side of this matter is this: It is said: "There are very heavy claims which are made against various German individuals or against the German State; there are many British subjects who have suffered cruelly and frightfully in the loss of their private possessions—sailors who have had their little belongings taken from them—and these people are the people who have the first claim upon our consideration." So they are, but I should be very slow to believe that there is any honest man in England, sailor or trader, who would get up and say: "I am owed something by a German or by the German State, and I call upon the Government to collect the debt by forfeiting the savings of some Scotchwoman who has married an Austrian." I do not believe there is any Briton who

      827
      would do it, and I believe that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would be interpreting far more truly the real desire of public opinion in this country if he recognised that this Treaty—it is nobody's fault; it is a very complicated Treaty—is a Treaty which in this respect has, by administrative act, to be substantialy modified.
      I said that this matter had been discussed already in another place, and it is noteworthy that when this matter was raised in another place, on 6th April, 1922, although explanation was offered on behalf of the Government, the House of Lords entirely declined to accept the Government's explanation as adequate, and I notice that among those who supported Lord Buckmaster and Lord Ullswater in calling for a substantial modification, was no less a person than the Marquess of Salisbury. He voted for this Resolution, which has, I am afraid, not been put into operation:
      "That the terms of the Peace Treaty appropriating the private property of enemy subjects shall not apply to sums of £5,000 or less where the owner is either born of British parents or has been resident in this country continuously for 25 years before 4th August, 1914."
      This is one of the cases in which it is very easy for an ingenious man—and the right hon. Gentleman is very ingenious—using departmental detail to produce some sort of plausible excuse for the way in which this thing is being operated, but I submit to the House that if it be looked at, as it ought to be looked at, as a large matter of public policy, and not as a branch of a debt collecting agency, the House of Commons ought not to be content unless the Board of Trade is prepared in this matter to recommend the Government to make a substantial modification in order to relieve these people of what is a very hard measure indeed.
      I should have hoped that the right hon. Gentleman might think it well to have appointed, it may be, quite a small Committee, or even to have invited the three gentlemen who are serving so admirably as Lord Justice Younger's Committee to let us know what, from their own experience, their own day to day experience of how this really works, they think would be a suitable modification. If that were done, I believe the Government would be
      828
      meeting a certain number of very hard cases, and they would be taking from us all the most uncomfortable feeling that in the actual administration of these Treaties, in the multitude of things which a Government has to do, this matter is being dealt with in a peddling way, which is injuring our reputation, which is really belying our proud claim that our country is a place where people may, at any rate, be sure that their rights will be fairly respected, and more and more causing individuals to feel that the use which is being made of these Treaties is one which was not really consistent with the high purpose which caused the War to be undertaken and carried through.
      8.0 P.M.
      Mrs. WINTRINGHAM: I wish to support the case which has been so ably and so admirably put by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon). He has gone into the matter so thoroughly that it is rather useless for anyone following him to go into the same details. The cases which he has quoted have, I am sure, touched every Member of the House, and further cases could be quoted, as they are continually being brought to my notice, but I want to make a plea, because these women who are suffering are of my own flesh and blood. They are as English as I am, and as English as any Member of this House. One knows how, during the War, these women suffered, and I feel that, as they are of our own flesh and blood, they need some sort of special consideration in the circumstances. Why should a woman who marries an alien lose her property any more than a man who marries an alien? A woman should have the same right to dispose of her property as a man. What is right for a man should be right for a woman. The laws were made by men, the War was made by men, and the so-called Peace Treaty was made by men, and one cannot help but feel that if women had had a hand in any of these things these difficulties would not have arisen in the same way. The impounding of property of an ex-enemy alien is a new departure, and quite contrary to the traditions of England since 1215. Of all countries in the world, I think we should represent the interests and security of property. One feels that, as the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken said, it is not a party question, but it is a case of human justice.
      Captain BERKELEY: I, too, would like to say a few words in support of the case that has been put, if I may say so, so admirably by my right hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon), and so well reinforced by the hon. Member for Louth (Mrs. Wintringham). This is a case in which I, in common with a number of my friends, feel very deeply. When I put a question on this subject last Monday, I expected there would have been some kind of reply indicating the intention on the part of the Government to meet this obvious case of injustice, and I was staggered when the Noble Viscount, in making his reply, laid it down that the Board of Trade had no intention of issuing instructions to protect the case of those women of British nationality who were being deprived of their property, and then threw it out, as though it were a great concession, that in necessitous cases it was possible for relief to be obtained from Lord Justice Younger's Committee. I venture to believe that it will be the opinion of the great majority of Members of this House that it should not be put on the plea of necessity, but it should be recognised as an inalienable right that these women of our own nationality, who, in pre-War days, married, what are now ex-enemy nationals, should keep the property that was provided for them by their British parents from British sources to protect them from need. It seems to me that the case really does not admit of argument. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley, with his customary fairness, has been at some pains to point out the excuses that can be made on the other side. I believe it will be the wish of this House to sweep those excuses aside, and to do this small act, if I may so call it, of reparation to a number of people who have been very hardly used.
      There was a case put forward in another place which I will briefly recount to the House. It was the case of an old woman who was a Dane, and who long ago got married to an Englishman, and thus acquired British nationality. She had a daughter who got married to someone of ex-enemy nationality. The old woman had a certain amount of savings, with which she was ekeing out her old age. Her powers were failing her, and so an arrangement was made that the
      830
      property should be transferred into the name of her daughter for purposes of administration. By the execution of these astonishing provisions of the Treaty, that property has been taken away. I submit that that is a perfectly monstrous state of affairs. I have had a case brought to my knowledge by a friend of mine who is trustee for a woman, a relative of his, who, before the War, married a Hungarian. Her father was most anxious to make every provision to safeguard her against eventualities. He settled on her gilt-edged securities, and stocks of various kinds, amounting in the total to £38,000. That was 18 years ago—10 years before the War. The War came, and her husband being a Hungarian was ruined, and then the crowning and crushig blow came when she found that, not only was her husband ruined, but that she was ruined, too, that the property which her father had left her against just such an eventuality as the ruin of her husband, was, by the operation of the Peace Treaty, taken away.
      I do not wish to labour this point any further, but I do want to impress upon the Government that, however defensible the original provisions of the Treaty may be, however excellent may have been the idea of taking the property of Germans in this country for the purpose of satisfying claims against German nationals by British people, and however much the framers of the Treaty may have thought that they had safeguarded those dispossessed from injustice, by providing that the Government of the ex-enemy country should compensate the person dispossessed to the extent of his dispossession, there has, in fact, been created a state of affairs which was never intended at all, and I would go further and say, a state of affairs which no honest man can defend. If the Government, now that this has been pointed out so vividly by my right hon. Friend, take no steps to rectify this serious wrong which is, one might say, tantamount to robbery, the Government would deserve to be execrated throughout the length and breadth of the land. I venture to hope that the Noble Viscount, who is representing the right hon. Gentleman at the moment, will give this matter more serious consideration than it received when I put a question on this subject last Monday.
      Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: I am sure the whole House has heard with considerable interest the fair-minded speech of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced this subject, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down had left it as presented in those moderate terms, it would have lost nothing in weight. There are difficulties in connection with this matter, and there is, undoubtedly, another side to it, but I venture to appeal to the Government—because, as the right hon. Member for Spen Valley said, there is no question of party politics at all—to give some reconsideration to this matter. I do not use the term "robbery," or anything like that, but it does seem to me that a very fair case has been made out for re consideration, and I hope it will be possible for the Government to give the Committee which has been set up much more discretion and much wider powers than it has got at the present time. I believe there is a very strong case for following the example of Belgium, and giving British-born subjects the same privileges that Belgium has given to Belgian-born subjects. But there are other considerations, and perhaps the Government may not see their way to go to that extent. I must say, however, that I am surprised to hear the limitation of this particular Committee, and that when cases are brought before them, such as we have heard this evening, they are only able to give, in the case of Germans, the sum of £500 capital value. How that figure has been arrived at, or why, in the case of Hungarians, it has been put on the lower scale of £200, I do not know, and I should like to have further information. The fact that when the Committee have cases before them such as that of a hotel realising the sum of £13,000, the people being to all intents and purposes British subjects, it is only possible to award to those people such a small and miserable amount, must put the Committee in a very great embarrassment indeed.
      At any rate, the practical course could be taken, and well within the terms of the Treaty and the arrangements that the present Government have made, to extend the scope of the Committee, and give them power, on merits, to award, according to their judgment, any amount up to the amount claimed. I think we may well trust the Committee to do that.
      832
      There may be individual cases where it would be an unfair thing, perhaps, to give the property back. I could conceive of extreme cases where, having regard to-things that have passed, and the conduct, perhaps, of the person concerned, and matters of that sort, it would, perhaps, be an unfair thing to take certain sums of money away in such a case. There is a case for the Government reconsidering this matter; as far as the jurisdiction of the Committee is concerned, and it is in that sense and in that spirit, speaking entirely apart from party—because, as has been pointed out, a number of members of the Conservative party have asked the Government to reconsider this matter—that I support the appeal made by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley.
      Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I wish to make a few observations upon a matter which may seem of very minor importance compared with the items referred to by the last two speakers. I put a question to the President of the Board of Trade a few days ago with regard to the claim of a man for damages due to action by the enemy during the War. In this case no property was destroyed, but the life of a woman was destroyed as the result of an air raid. She was the wife of a poor workman who had no funds at his disposal to meet the extraordinary medical expenses and the funeral expenses consequent upon the woman's premature death. A claim was submitted on the basis of the certificate supplied by the local doctor, who stated very definitely that death was wholly due to the air raid. This case was not dealt with finally until two or three weeks ago, when it was stated that the claim did not come within the meaning of the powers held by the Commission which deals with these cases. The President of the Board of Trade reiterated that statement in reply to my question.
      It seems to me that either the Commission are wholly guided by the amount of money at their disposal, or they are not giving the sympathetic consideration to these isolated cases that they warrant. If they are working within certain financial limitations which do not permit them to give the sympathetic consideration to which the cases are entitled, the right hon. Gentleman should appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a

      833
      more useful sum of money so that all these cases can be dealt with as they are entitled to be dealt with. If, on the other hand, the powers of the Commission are so limited that cases of this description cannot be dealt with by the Commission, there is ample room for an extension of the powers of the Commission.
      In this case the husband is a poor workman, and all he receives is a very low wage, even in the very best of times. Consequently, he could have no reserve for extraordinary expenditure and the extraordinary medical cost to which he has been put. Funeral expenses were excessive at that particular period, and he had no reserve funds with which to meet them. Further, he had to employ domestic help, and he had not only to provide food for the lady who undertook the domestic functions but to pay her a wage for a very long time, which, out of his own small wages, almost left him and his children without sufficient money to enable them to buy the normal quantity of food for full physical development. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will investigate this and similar cases with a view to doing one of two things, either appealing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a larger sum of money and not leaving these people wholly dependent upon illusory reparation money, or, on the other hand, seeing to it that the powers of the Committee are so extended as to make it possible for these cases where the evidence is absolutely conclusive to be dealt with by the Commission as sympathetically as they ought to be dealt with.
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir P. RICHARDSON:I rise to support the suggestion made by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) in regard to the property of women who have married foreigners. There have been many very great hardships imposed upon ladies who have married foreigners. One case was brought to my notice of an Irish lady who married an Austrian. At the end of the War the Austrian left his wife in England and went to reside in Austria. She was possessed of jewellery which she had had before her marriage, and which had been given to her during her married life. She found herself without means and sold this jewellery and invested the money in British securities, thinking herself per-
      834
      fectly safe; but, to her great surprise, these securities were held to be forfeit, and she was granted a very small sum, because she was an Austrian subject. That seems to me an exceedingly hard case, and I trust that the Government will see their way, first, to grant additional scope to Lord Younger's Committee, and, secondly, to include in the reference that such cases may be made retrospective. I have merely quoted this case because it appeared to me to be preposterous that a lady who had private property in the form of jewellery, which was not likely to be taken from her, and who, because she was patriotic enough to invest this property in British securities, should be deprived of it. If there is a further reference, and I hope there may be, I trust that the cases which have already been decided may be brought up again with a view to remedying that which has been opposed to the intentions of the Treaty of Versailles.
      Sir CHARLES OMAN: There are two sides to this question. There have been cases of Englishwomen who have married foreigners and have entirely, adopted the feelings and nationality of their husbands, and all their lives have been absent from England, and to all intents and purposes have become foreigners. That is one side of the case—which does not appeal so greatly to our sympathy. There is another side, such as that which the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) brought to our notice, the case of the Englishwoman who has married a foreigner and who has lost her husband and returned to Great Britain and has not been re-naturalised. Consequently she has been struck by the awful misfortune involved in a certain reading of the Treaty of Versailles.
      One case was brought to my notice last Saturday of a lady who married a German in 1880, before there was any suspicion as to the policy of Germany, and when the late Emperor William was a lad of 20 This lady lost her husband. She ought no doubt many years ago to have re-nationalised herself as British, but she did not. Her father left her a considerable fortune, with the user of it to her stepmother. On the death of the stepmother in 1922 the Public Trustee intervened and seized the whole of this property which the lady's father had left to

      835
      her. Here again we have one of these cruel cases such as have been referrd to by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley and others.
      The whole thing depends on the individual case. It does seem to me that this Committee ought to be able to go individually into each case, and in those where large sums of money have been forfeited by persons to whom we cannot impute any blame whatever, but only the slight carelessness of not re-nationalising themselves many years ago when they lost their husbands, not merely paltry eleemosynary sums of £200 or £500 should be returned, but, as far as possible, some form of complete compensation should be given. In such a case as that of the hotel keeper's wife, which was referred to, it is not of much use to give £500 to a person who has had £13,000 confiscated, and who has never been out of England all her life. Cases like that are cruel, and I trust that the Noble Lord in charge of this matter will give an assurance that every case will be dealt with on its individual merits; that those who have ceased to be British should have some consideration, but those who have shown all their lives that they wish to remain British should receive something more than an eleemosynary £200 or £300.
      Mr. FILDES: I rise to emphasise, so far as I can, the urgent necessity of the Government doing something to remedy what is a very obvious injustice. The House is under a debt of gratitude to the right hon. Member for Spen Valley for drawing attention in such detail to this very important subject. I attach great importance to the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman that he did not raise this question as a party question, and I would appeal to the Noble Lord to regard it from that point of view. The fact that the Noble Lord inadvertently made an inaccurate reply to the question put to him on this matter does show that there has been some misunderstanding on the part of the Government Department with regard to it, and therefore I trust that on reconsideration one of two suggestions will be adopted.
      Either additional facilities should be given to Lord Justice Younger's Committee to deal with this matter or legis-
      836
      lation should be brought in on the line of the proposals adopted in Belgium and the United States. If either of these two courses is adopted, it will be a great relief, not only to Members in all parts of the House, but throughout the country generally. The instances given to the House this evening of British-born persons who have been married for 40 years, who have never left the country, who inherited money from British-born parents, and who had that money confiscated on a technical interpretation of a Treaty, are very striking, and, though I am afraid that I do not agree with the hon. Member for Nottingham, who termed what has been done robbery, yet it is going as near robbery as anything I ever heard of. I am certain that the Noble Lord, with his long tradition of ancestry and of fairness in legislation, will be singularly careful to see that nothing wrong is done in the name of law in this country, or by a misinterpretation of the law, but that what has been done will be remedied, so far as he himself can secure it. I feel confident that when he rises to speak he will promise us a remedy for what is, indeed, a great injustice.
      Mr. REMER: I hope that I shall not be thought unsympathetic with the views which have been expressed by my hon. Friend and others who preceded him, if I do not refer to the particular subject with which he dealt. I wish to refer to another subject upon which I feel very deeply, and which I think should receive the immediate and urgent consideration of His Majesty's Government. I refer particularly to the large and increasing importation of foreign manufactured goods into this country. Last year nearly £200,000,000 of foreign manufactured goods came free of duty into this country. Among them were such goods as motor tyres, manufactured silk, and manufactured lace, all of which are pure luxuries which could very well be done without at the moment. When we come to consider the position of this country at present, when we have over a million people out of work, it is the height of lunacy that we should allow such an enormous flood of foreign manufactured goods to come in.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope); I hope that the hon. Member will connect his remarks with the Board of Trade Vote.
      Mr. REMER: Yes, I was going to submit that the President of the Board of Trade has power to deal with the situation to which I am referring. I would refer particularly to the collapsed exchanges, which are having a most serious and increasing effect upon our trade. Only to-day I was coming in the train with a very prominent wool manufacturer from Lancashire. I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for the Waterloo Division of Liverpool (Lieut.-Colonel Buckley), who represents the Overseas Trade Department, is not present, because he was a partner of one of the largest firms of wool brokers in Liverpool, and that firms holds wool sales frequently in Liverpool; and I was told by this woollen manufacturer to-day that nearly every buyer who goes to buy wool at those particular sales is either a German, a Swiss, or a Frenchman, and that though that wool is bought in Liverpool, it is actually manufactured in France and then shipped back to this country to the displacement of working people in this country. The same thing, I am credibly informed, is happening with reference to cotton. A well-known manufacturer, who has works in Bolton and in Belgium, tells me that he can import cotton into Belgium, manufacture it, and export it to this country, at a cost fully 25 per cent. less than in his works in Lancashire. I say, without the slightest hesitation, that this position cannot go on any longer. The Government must stir themselves to find some means of remedying it, either with the aid of the powers they already possess, or with other powers with which they should invest themselves.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I would point out to the hon. Member that a question requiring legislation cannot be discussed here. The hon. Member can deal with the existing powers of the Government, and contend that they are or are not using those powers sufficiently.
      Mr. REMER: I will try and keep within the requirements of debate, but I am quite sure the Board of Trade already have powers which will enable them to deal emphatically with the present situation. I do not think we should allow any old shibboleth to stand in the way of those powers being effectively used. I hope the Noble Viscount will not only consider this himself, but will impress upon other
      838
      Ministers who are not on the Front Bench at the moment that this question is a very pressing one, which should be dealt with without further delay.
      Mr. BROTHERTON: It seems to me that the Board of Trade Vote affords very wide scope for the inclusion of many things in the course of the Debate. I have listened to numerous speeches, which have brought in many subjects, and I am particularly interested in the matter of industry as a workman. It appears to me that the Board of Trade, or the Government generally, does not do all it might to assist the particular industry to which I belong, and which has been going through a very serious period of depression since the conclusion of the War. It has gone through that very long period of depression, owing, in my belief, to the folly of the previous Government. I may not be allowed to discuss that here, but I should like to mention it by way of an illustration. Mistakes have been made by past Governments, and I hope the present Government will try to avoid them. There has been much talk this afternoon about the merits and demerits of private enterprise as compared with co-operative effort. I happen to have been returned to this House from an industrial borough that has suffered very severely from depression in the engineering trade, of which I am a member. This Government should avoid the mistakes into which the previous Government, wilfully or otherwise, unfortunately fell. Instead of hindering the progress of manufacture and of trade with foreign countries, upon which so much has been said in regard to our dependance on foreign trade, they should endeavour, as far as possible, to encourage trade with all countries.
      My particular trade, the engineering industry, has had a very wonderful effect upon all trades. There is no other industry carried on in this country, or in the world, upon which we are all so much dependant as the engineering industry. Therefore, it behoves the Government to encourage that trade as much as possible. During the War, the Government then in being made very great claims upon the engineering industry, and they were so badly served by the arrangements which were in existence prior to the War that they had to control the industry, and in many districts they established engineering

      839
      factories. As I happened to work in one or two or those factories, I know something about the manner in which they were conducted, and with what result. Neither the present Government nor any of its supporters can deny that the results were wonderful under their own established agencies.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am unwilling to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I must point out to him that he should, in some way, connect his argument with the Board of Trade, and refer to something the Board of Trade did, or ought to do, or ought not to have done. I do not at present see that he is linking up his argument with that.
      Mr. BROTHERTON: As a Very young Member of the House I suppose I, like many others, shall find considerable difficulty in trying to keep within the bounds of what is called legitimate Debate. I was endeavouring to lead up to the point that my particular industry has suffered very largely, because of the action of the previous Government, and I was urging that this Government might, through the agency of the Board of Trade, and through the recommendations that might come from that Department to the Government, avoid similar errors. Whether they are directly under the control of the Board of Trade or not, there are certain agencies in being which have some relation or connection with the Board, and which, I think, might usefully be utilised. For instance, I elicited by a question this week the fact that there are certain properties still in possession of the State which, in my judgment, could be usefully used in some way to relieve the distressing circumstances of unemployment through which the engineering trade is now passing and has been passing for the past four years. To me it seems they could operate those factories which are still in existence through the agency of the Board of Trade, which I believe has some measure of control over them. I think it would be advantageoous if they did so. In to-day's Press we have seen suggestions made as to what some of us advocated a long time ago, and we are told that the unemployment problem is likely to be much more serious in the coming months than it has been in the immediate past. I say the immediate past because the situ-
      840
      ation has slightly improved as compared with what it was when I myself was one of the unemployed after the War. What we advocated four years ago is now being reiterated in another place.
      The Board of Trade, I suggest, could do something by utilising these factories. A great scheme of electrification has been talked about; if they were to undertake such a scheme it would unquestionably engage in industry many of my co-workers in the engineering trade who are at present compulsorily idle. If these factories were converted, as they could be converted rapidly by working engineers, to the manufacture of the things which would be needed, say, in a great national electrification scheme, and if the Government, through the Board of Trade and various other Departments, were to undertake schemes of this character, it would be a great advantage to the general community. No private enterprise company, however pushful it may be, could do that which the State is capable of doing on a national basis in connection with such a matter as electrification. The previous Government had the opportunity but neglected it, and I do not wish this Government to fall into the same pit as their predecessors. I wish the Government to be as sincere in its expressions of sympathy with the unemployed as they would like us to believe they are, and I want them to show their sympathy by really endeavouring to do something for the workless people of our community. Private enterprise has failed, and the failure has been a bitter one to the workers, though we see no apparent loss to the possessing classes as a result of it. The workers are suffering acutely from the failure of private enterprise, and, because of that suffering, a change of opinion is taking place and is proceeding rapidly among the working community. This Government will have to act and will have to alter its policy. They must pursue a different policy from that of the previous Government. They must, as has already been said in this Debate, employ the people of the State. They must in some way or other either get control or utilise the powers that they possess through the Board of Trade and other Departments in order to enter into industry and compete with private enterprise which is now so inefficiently carrying on the work. There are many things which the

      841
      Government could undertake if they had the well-being of the people at heart. One which has been mentioned already by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) and which seemed to be regarded by the hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Gould) as a good suggestion and which would provide a national asset, is the making of a tunnel under the Humber. No private company, however enterprising, could undertake such a scheme.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Has the Board of Trade powers to undertake such a work?
      The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Viscount Wolmer): I do not think we have such powers without going to Parliament for them.
      Mr. BROTHERTON: One of the things I wish to impress upon the representatives of the Board of Trade is that if they have not these powers, they should secure them. I think, however, the Board of Trade in itself or through the Department with which it has relationship should be able to do something in that direction. It is a Department which touches upon almost every phase of our national industrial life and I think that, by some means or other, it could become an employer of labour on a larger and wider scale than at present. I do not, however, desire to go beyond what are considered the proper limits of this Debate, though I do not think I have travelled any further afield than some of those who preceded me. We heard a lot with regard to the dyeing industry, but I am not so much concerned about the dyeing industry as about living humanity. My concern has been with those who are suffering and it is that which has brought me to occupy my position as a Member of this House. I believe, as I say, that the Board of Trade by a full utilisation of its powers could materially and effectively decrease unemployment in this country. It seems to me to be a most silly and foolish system which we on these benches consider that this and previous Governments have indulged in paying millions of pounds away and nothing being done. It was paid away to keep men in idleness—men who want work. I want to impress this upon the Government. I ask them to endeavour to find useful employment
      842
      for the workers through or with the aid of the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade must have some relation to trade and industry. It cannot exist without thinking about the people who are engaged in trade and industry, or—as the case may be—not engaged, but who ought to be! The Government through the Board of Trade, and in the best interests of the entire community should get down at once to finding employment, and so saving themselves and the nation. The Board ought to lift its embargo upon trading with foreign Powers. If this Government will now begin to open up trade even with Russia, which, as we have been told to-day, has such infinite resources and such undeveloped possibilities it would be well; for they would be able to give us what we need and in return we should give them what they need—
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not see what the hon. Member's observations now have to do with the Board of Trade. They might be in order on the Consolidated Fund Bill which will come on next week.
      Mr. BROTHERTON: I am very sorry to find myself in conflict with you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I cannot, for the life of me, get it out of my mind that the Board of Trade have to do with the matter that I have mentioned, and with the subject I have endeavoured to draw attention to. In resuming my seat, may I ask the representative of the Board of Trade to take into consideration many of the suggestions that have been made, notwithstanding the way these points may have been put, for some of us have tried to show the effect of the position in which we find ourselves.
      Mr. ERNEST EVANS: We have listened to a number of speeches, dealing with particular industries, which have come from the lips of men who are very well informed as to the details of those industries; speeches, certainly, of great value. But I could not help feeling, as one who views the state of trade in the country generally, that one has to go farther afield than the particular points raised in those speeches, because we are dealing with a situation which is due to causes more varied and wider in their application than the causes of which we have heard. I dare say that this Debate

      843
      will pass without, perhaps, very much of a very practical character having been suggested, but I do venture to think that it is a good thing that this House should devote one day to a general consideration of the state of trade and commerce in our country under existing conditions. I say that for this reason I think it is of the utmost importance that the country generally should be enabled to realise the situation in which we really are; it is imperative that we should seek to ascertain the causes of existing conditions before we seek to remedy them.
      9.0 P.M.
      There is an advertisement which faces us on the hoardings of this city and which impresses upon us the desirability of seeing the label. I am not at all sure what the article is, but I believe it is a beverage. [An HON. MEMBER: "Pop!"] I am afraid there is a danger of many of us seeking to approach trade and financial conditions prepossessed by our own ideas. I myself believe the conditions are so serious to-day that it is very important that the country as a whole should realise exactly where we stand and should face the situation quite irrespective of the particular theories which people may have had. I have found in conversation with a large number of business men, particularly small business men, that their hopes have been raised only to be dashed to the ground more than once within the last few years. There is no doubt that after the War many prophecies were made to the effect that the prosperity which we then had was going to continue. Many believed that. Many acted upon that belief. The disappointment has been acute.
      The result is that to-day not only is trade depressed, but those who are engaged in trade are more depressed than they have been for a very long time. Rather than create a spirit of false optimism and to raise expectations which again may not be realised, I for my part believe that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade was right when he took a much more gloomy view of conditions than he might otherwise be inclined to do, and in the course of his speech last week ventured to inform the country that he did not see those signs of immediate trade prosperity which some people last year claimed to be discern-
      844
      able. There are many conditions applying to individual industries which can be remedied in an individual way only. There are other conditions which are widespread and world-spread, and which can only be dealt with from those points of view. In the course of conversation, which I, like everyone else, have had with different people, I have found that it is generally agreed by those who are engaged in industry that they are unable to put forward their best efforts at the present time for two reasons.
      One is the feeling of insecurity, so far as conditions at home are concerned; the other is the feeling of uncertainty which is caused by what is happening on the Continent of Europe at the present time. That undoubtedly is the view of the ordinary man, the man who is often described as the man-in-the-street—for I must confess that for my part that man's opinion may be, and probably is, usually influenced by the kind of street in which he lives. Certainly these are two conditions which are most commonly impressed on one as one seeks to obtain guidance from these people. With respect to the first—uncertainty at home. There is only one way to remedy that, and that is to remove the root causes of the uncertainty which prevails. That insecurity is not confined to one class.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not quite see how the hon. Member connects his argument with this Vote.
      Mr. EVANS: Then I will deal with the conditions which prevail in European countries at the present time. Exception has been taken to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) on the ground that the suggestion which he made in. regard to the electrification of railways and the improvement of transport generally, and so on, were things which would only supply labour for a comparatively small number of people In one sense that is true, but in another sense I do not think it does justice to the suggestion, because there is no doubt that traders all over the country to-day are complaining of the lack of proper transport facilities and the burden of railway rates, and they complain of the general management of the railways at the present time. For that reason I think there is much that can be done in that particular direction. Then there is the question of the development

      845
      of our markets in Europe. Reference has been made to the necessity of reopening trade relations with Russia. I join with those who have pressed upon the President of the Board of Trade this matter, but at the same time I utter a word of caution, and it is that I do not believe that even that would produce that large volume of trade which some people hope would be the result.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: That is really a matter for the Foreign Office, because it deals with our relations with the Russian Government.
      Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: May I point out to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the Russian Trade Agreement is not signed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs but by the President of the Board of Trade.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I understand that that Agreement has never taken effect, and therefore it remains for the Russian Government to make arrangements with the Foreign Office.
      Mr. EVANS: But the Trade Agreement with Russia is still in operation.
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not think that the Board of Trade admit any liability in regard to this matter.
      Mr. EVANS: I am not arguing that there should be direct recognition of the Russian Government by the British Government, but I was pressing upon the President of the Board of Trade that he should seek facilities for the working out of the Trade Agreement, and that argument applies not only to Russia but to other countries. In the course of the Debate last week and on other occasions I have noticed the tendency on the, part of some hon. Members to develop the importance of the home markets, while another pressed forward the development of European markets, and a third section urged the importance of developing Imperial trade. I notice that there has been a tendency to speak of these three things as if they were in competition one with the other, but in my view that is a profound mistake. What we really want to do is to develop all our trade, and I hope my right hon. Friend will do all that he can in all those three directions in order that the traders, and those engaged in the industries of this country
      846
      shall have every encouragement in these difficult times to embark upon new enterprises and to enable them to pursue them to a successful issue.
      Mr. JOHN MURRAY: I should like to offer a few observations in the course of which I hope to keep within the ruling of the Chair. I intend dealing with the broader aspects of the work of the Board of Trade. I think the House must take serious notice of the present condition of the country as represented by the speech of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwell) and the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. Gould). I would like to point out the conclusions which follow from the speech delivered by the hon. Member for Linlithgow and contrast it with what was said by the hon. Member for Central Cardiff, who stated that it will be some time before we shall see the shipbuilding industry of this country employed as fully as in the past. It has been said that at some places we shall have to give up shipbuilding altogether in favour of those places where they enjoy greater advantages and facilities, but the natural advantages of our shipbuilding industries justify us in expecting that within a measurable time we shall have control of all the best shipbuilding in the world.
      No doubt our industrialism is swollen and over-inflated. One of the results of the War has been to develop the industries of the whole world. There is not a country in the world, and hardly a British Colony, which did not seek to industrialise itself during the War, and there is barely one which did not succeed In many countries, some of them very close to ourselves in the British Empire, have a new ambition to run their own industries, and that has grown up to such an extent that they refuse to accept from any country whatever the gift of manufactured goods, and they desire to manufacture everything for themselves.
      We are a nation of 50,000,000 souls who are dependent upon external trade, and we have now to look out upon a world which in a new degree has industrialised itself. The position is so obvious and world-wide that many of us think fit to ignore it. Some of us recognise it to the extent of suggesting petty cures. I do not wish to depreciate what has been said by the hon. Member for Cardiff about the necessity of peace in industry because

      847
      without peace we are lost. However good the relations in this country are between employers and men, that is not going to affect the fact that if the foreigners will not trade with us the employers will not be making profits and the workmen will not be receiving wages. It is quite true that if you build tunnels under the Humber or the Thames you cannot do it without doing good to somebody, but really what we want is foreign trade. I hear from the benches above the gangway ridiculous suggestions that we should turn out the private individual from private enterprise and put the State in his place, and that by so doing we shall better our position. But have we any experience in the world to show that if we displace private enterprise and put the State in we will get better goods and cheaper.
      Mr. MacLAREN: What did we do in the War?
      Mr. MURRAY: I have sat here very silently, and have listened without interrupting a single speaker on that bench, and I ask hon. Members to extend the same courtesy to me. This House is getting into such a condition that one cannot ask a rhetorical question without an answer being roared at him from those benches. Can any hon. Member say how the substitution of the State for the private undertaker is going to help us?
      Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: This is hardly in order.
      Mr. MURRAY: I was not so very sure myself that I was in order, but speakers on the benches above the Gangway have been allowed to sing the praises of the substitution of the State for private enterprise as a means of helping the country in its troubles, and I thought it open to me to contradict them. Anyway, I have contradicted them; I have given them a flat contradiction, and that is the only answer which such an assertion in the present state of the world deserves. Now I come to the speech of the hon. Member for Linlithgow. What he said about shipbuilding on the Tyne I cay say about the whole industrialism of this country. We have a wrong balance between the husbandman and the craftsman, and until that balance is redressed the Board of Trade, the chief among the Govern-
      848
      ment Departments, will have to face the prospect of millions upon millions of unemployed in the coming winter. The direness of the position is well understood already by the President of the Board of Trade, and I congratulate him sincerely on having the courage to tell the people of this country of the evils in store for them, because only too often statesmen paint rosy pictures of the future and declare that all will be well if they are given control. For my part, I believe with the President of the Board of Trade that these evils will prevail, not only in the coming winter, but for many winters to come. The fact is we are over-industrialised, and the hon. Member for Linlithgow is quite right in saying that we must de-industrialise the greater part of our population.
      Mr. MacLAREN: Put them on the land.
      Mr. MURRAY: I really hope that hon. Members will allow me to make my own speech without interruption. The hon. Member for Linlithgow, when he declared that we would have to deindustrialise, left us to conclude that these many millions of unhealthy and unwholesome people from our crowded towns and cities can be accommodated on our land. So they can, much in the same way as rabbits, and with rabbits' methods of living, but I hold that the men and women of the 20th century who have got to be industrialised cannot expect to obtain a decent standard of living by going on to the land of this country. The only possible way for them is to emigrate, and the real remedy for this country is a great State-aided, State-organised policy of emigration.
      Mr. BARKER: Yes, get rid of them.
      Mr. MURRAY: It is quite unnecessary for any Member of the Labour party to make an observation of that kind. I belong to a country many of the inhabitants of which have gone to British Colonies, and I am glad to say are doing well there. Any man who has the courage to take his fortunes into his hands and settle on British lands in other parts of the world will not only benefit himself but he will benefit the whole world. People who object to this policy should themselves stay at home. I hope the hon. Member who in-

      849
      terrupted me just now will never be so misguided as to go to our Colonies. They might send him back. Those who pretend to represent the working classes of this country who claim in a quite special sense to represent Labour must be aware that there are many adventurous men and women who are willing to emigrate but have not the means to do so without help.
      Here I come back to the speech of the right hon. Member for West Swansea earlier in the evening. The right hon. Gentleman insisted that it was the duty of the Government in these times of emergency to do all it can with the power given it by law to set business going, to foster industry, and to try and revivify the commercial life of the nation. I observe with a little disappointment the reply to that of the hon. Member for Linlithgow. He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman was now turning a Socialist. Surely those of us who dislike the inclination of hon. Gentlemen on those benches to use the State always for everything and everywhere and at all times, are not bound down to the extreme opposite view of never availing ourselves of the power of the State. For one thing we were all sent here to govern the country and we are part of the executive power of the State, not so influential as hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who occupy the Front Bench, but still holding our humble place in the system. We too here believe in using the power of the State but discriminatingly and for definite reasons, not in obedience to a foolish theory. We have the idea of the use of the State, but we do not have it in our brains nor do we suffer from it as an obsession. We regard it as an instrument, a tool, a practical principle governed by expediency.
      The right hon. Member for West Swansea said that during the War, because we had to do so and there was a crisis, we raised vast sums of money by loan for State purposes. That is plain. He said that now we are in a different kind of crisis surrounded by difficulties, and that again it is the duty of the State to raise and dispose of large sums, the Board of Trade using all its legal powers to help the nation through its difficult times. That is not Socialism, that is merely sense. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is what Socialism is!"] I hold that a large number of millions of our indus-
      850
      trial population must be deindustrialised and emigrated, and that cannot be done without large expenditure of State money, the active help, superintendence, and organisation of the State in this country, and the help of the Governments of the Dominions. Presently there is going to be an Imperial Conference, at which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade will preside, and I wish to ask him as seriously as I can to do his best to bring before the representatives of the Great Dominions—who can be argued with, who must be persuaded, who cannot be overruled—with his great powers of persuasion the prime need of this country at this time, coresponding with the prime need of the Colonies who need more capital and more labour. I hope as much as I have ever wished for any issue in politics that the result of that Conference will be that means will be found, supported with money by the Board of Trade and the sympathy and active help of this House, to enable a large body of our surplus industrial population to be helped, it being willing, to the Dominions, there to build up a far better life than this country provides them with an opportunity to enjoy.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: This debate has, perhaps naturally, ranged over a very wide field, almost as wide a field as the area covered by British trade. Before I come to deal with the broader and more general questions which have formed the staple of the debate I should like briefly to reply to two points which were raised. I shall have to be very brief because the time left to me is not long. The first is the question which was raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir John Simon), the question of the relief afforded through the agency of Lord Justice Younger's Committee to foreign nationals in cases of distress or cases of hardship. Let me say at once in this matter that, whether the rules be right or wrong, they are the rules for which the Government are responsible, and the Government, and I think everyone, has nothing but gratitude to Lord Justice Younger and his colleagues, two distinguished Members of this House, for the way in which they have unsparingly carried out what must always be a very difficult task. It would obviously be improper to criticise and I have no desire to criticise them,

      851
      but I should like to say on behalf of the Board of Trade and of the Government how grateful we are to them for the manner in which that work has been conducted.
      Sir J. SIMON: I see that the right hon. Gentleman's representative in the House of Lords, in reference to the Committee, made this statement:
      "In considering the cases of hardship of ex-enemy nationals that come before them the Committee are, I think, apt to overlook the sufferings of our own people."
      Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether that is the view of the Board of Trade?
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I have not that passage before me. I am expressing the view I hold of the work of that Committee, and I think we shall get on more quickly if I am allowed to deal with the merits of the case and not with what may or may not have been said in Debate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman presented the case, as he always does, with great skill and with great persuasion, and he would leave the impression upon the House, as a great advocate always does, that the case is absolutely unanswerable. The case is far more difficult than he would have led us to believe. If the case were as simple as he put it I should be inclined to say without hesitation that I should adopt all the suggestions he made. As to one, namely, that it might be useful to have the advice of a Committee, possibly of Lord Justice Younger's Committee with one or two others, I should like to give it further consideration, as it might be a useful course to adopt. The case is far more difficult than that he presented. He presented certain hard cases. It is true, I have no doubt, that there are hard cases. On the other hand, what the right hon. Gentleman did not present fully to the House were two things. The first is that there are hard cases on the other side; that the money which you pay away is money which would go to meeting claims of British nationals of exactly the same type in many cases as the people who are concerned here, British nationals who were arrested and interned in Germany and who suffered great hardships. Then there are the British nationals whose property has been sequestrated in Germany and whose claim for compensation must
      852
      be paid out of the assets which are available. Therefore, it is not simply a question of being able by a stroke of the pen to make a present to one set of people without its having any other effect. There are other effects, and those effects are directly on the people in this country, many of them cases of hardship also. The second consideration is that under the Treaty it is the duty of the various countries of which these people are nationals to recompense their own nationals for the property sequestrated. It is quite true that in Germany, contrary to the provisions of the Treaty as I think, the Germans have said, "We are not going to give to our nationals anything like the real value of the property that has been sequestrated," and they have, as a matter of fact, let their own nationals who were debtors to nationals here off paying at sterling value.
      Sir J. SIMON: They give 60 marks to the £.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Something like that, but under the Treaty they ought to have given the full value. I think it is unreasonable to put the whole of the blame, to say the least of it, for the failure of German nationals to receive compensation that they ought to receive from their own Government and which by the action of their own Government they are precluded from receiving, on the British Government. In the other case, that of Austria, there are some hard cases again, but the Austrian Government give to their nationals in respect of this compensation sterling bonds to the full value of the property which has been sequestrated, and five or six months ago those gold bonds were possessing at least 50 per cent. of their face value. With the general stabilisation of conditions in Austria I am sure they are worth considerably more to-day. They are accepted in Austria as payment of any Government obligations or taxes. The point is that you are asking to have reduced the sum which is available for British nationals, in order to discharge the duty of the Government of the foreign nationals to make provision for them in their own country. As regards the case of women, it has been the regular practice in this country, when a widow who has been married to an ex-enemy national returns here, as soon as she resumes her British

      853
      nationality in this country, to release to her the whole of her property. I could discuss the details and difficulties of these cases at great length, but I think I have said enough to show that the whole question is by no means as simple as it might appear to the House from the presentation, necessarily, of one side of the case, and I think it would be unreasonable to expect me to commit myself to any further action at present. I should like, however, to consider the suggestion of appointing a Committee to go fully into the question, not merely from the point of view of these people themselves, but from the point of view of those others who are complete British nationals, with very real claims, and with not much prospect of being satisfied, and to recommend what is a fair procedure, because, unfortunately, there is no doubt that, if this fund is materially reduced, those people cannot get anything like full justice.
      Sir J. SIMON: Could the right hon. Gentleman announce his decision as to the Committee, when he has thought the matter over, before the House rises?
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I should not like to give a pledge as to that. I did not know that the question was to be raised until I came down to the House.
      Sir J. SIMON: I will put a question down.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Yes. I should like to discuss the matter with my colleagues. I feel that I am in the position of a trustee of funds in this matter.
      Sir K. WOOD: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not possible to enlarge the jurisdiction of this Committee and give it further powers?
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I certainly will not commit myself on that. I really must leave this question now, because I have to deal with the very important question of the trade position, which has been raised. Before doing so I want to allude to the question of dyes. I want to add very little to what was said in the extremely interesting speech of the hon. Member for Stretford (Sir T. Robinson). I think he showed the House how well fitted he is to preside over the Licensing Committee, and how fair and impartial is the work of the Committee under his chairmanship. I should like again to
      854
      thank him, as I did before, for his unsparing efforts in that work. I would only add that I endorse entirely what he said to the House in regard to the pledges that have been given. Government after Government has been committed by pledges on this matter. Pledges were given in 1916 and 1918 by the then President of the Board of Trade in this House, they were repeated in the country, and were inserted, with the full authority of the Government, in the prospectus on which millions of money were raised, and any Government which failed to stand by those pledges would certainly be dishonouring its own word and that of its predecessors.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:There are other pledges which have not been kept.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: It seems to me to be an exceedingly poor argument to suggest that we should, therefore, dishonour a further pledge. I dealt fully with the merits of the case on the last occasion, when this Vote was considered in Committee, and the facts adduced today by the hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury), who has a life-long experience of these matters, are sufficient to endorse the view which on that occasion I ventured to present to the House.
      The main volume of this Debate has ranged round the trade position, and I think there has been a general agreement with the diagnosis I gave last time, and also a large measure of agreement, with the policy which I recommended as the only possible cure. I entirely endorse what was said by the hon. Member for Central Cardiff as to the fact that you cannot isolate the solution of this problem into Empire trade, foreign trade or home trade. All three have to go together if the solution is to be effective. It is said sometimes, "You can clear out of Europe and turn elsewhere." You cannot do any such thing. I pass by the whole question of propinquity, which would make it difficult, if not impossible; but Europe buys from all the world, and we depend upon the purchasing power of Europe. It is the purchasing power of Europe which enables Europe to buy from all the great. countries, whether east, or south, or west, which have sold to Europe in the past, and they have used the credit created by their sales in Europe in order

      855
      to buy from this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tell that to the Colonies!"] I tell it to all countries. The hon. Member is quite wrong. There is just as good an appreciation of the true economic facts on this side of the House. I wish that hon. Members on the other side, would accept with equal enthusiasm what is equally true, and that is the necessity of developing fully our Empire markets. There is generally a strange silence there upon that, but that, undoubtedly, is the position. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) asked, would it not be possible to produce an authoritative statement of these facts based on statistics? It is not possible to base a statement as to the present position on statistics, because any statistics we collect must be statistics of work which has been completed and sent out. The test of the position to-day can only be found in the factories themselves, and in the way in which orders are coming in, and the appreciation of that can best be got—as has been shown to the House in the speeches delivered to-day, and in many speeches delivered by responsible business men outside giving their view of the prospects which attend their respective companies in the coming months—by statements and evidence of that kind. But such further evidence as has been given to-day enforces and reinforces everything I said last week as to the seriousness of the present position and the effect of the upset in Europe upon trade conditions in this country. It is not only the interrelation of trade; there is the instability of prices, and there is nothing worse for business than instability of prices. December was a good month. It was full of promise because prices were steady. There was a feeling that they had touched bottom and there was a slight tendency to rise. People came into the market and orders for ships were placed on the East Coast and on the Clyde and for steel work because you had that stability. There was a feeling of security. Purchasers who had been hanging back were ready to come in and were beginning to come in, and until you get stability that condition cannot arise again.
      The question of Russia was raised again. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea said he thought I had been wrong in suggesting that if you
      856
      threw open the Government facilities for credit to-day, people would fail to take advantage of it. May I remind him of a view which was expressed, not by any Member on this side of the House, but by a very distinguished and practical economist on that side of the House, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. Hilton Young), in a most admirable speech delivered in the course of the Hague Conference, which so impressed the representatives of all the nations that they appended it in extenso in their report. He said:
      "It is useless for a Government to offer encouragement and facilities for giving Russia credit unless its nationals are willing to accept them. Its nationals will not be willing to accept them unless their confidence has been restored that there is a reasonable basis for Russian credits. At present they have no such confidence. For the restoration of that confidence there is one essential, that Russia should reset the keystone of the arch which supports all credit at all times and everywhere: the recognition of the binding force of obligations solemnly contracted. … Even were the British Government for instance formally to extend to Russian trade all the potential benefits of its various Acts for encouraging foreign trade, as long as the present attitude of the Russian Government in respect of its obligations towards foreigners in the matter of properties and debts is maintained, that formal extension by the British Government would be a formality and nothing more. It would profit Russia not at all because the private holder of capital would remain totally indifferent and would refuse to take advantage of the facilities offered."
      That is a view with which I entirely concur. The hon. Member says, "Why not try to get this done?" He cannot say that either to my right hon. Friend or to me. We spent months, first at Genoa and then at The Hague, making every reasonable proposition to get such an arrangement, and we are willing to-day to get such an arrangement, but until Russia is prepared to restore what must be the basis of confidence the world over it is perfectly idle to try to set up the great machinery of credit because the whole thing would be a facade and no building could be built up behind it.
      Then the broad question was raised, should you or should you not use Government credit in order to try to assist industry at present. An attack was made by one hon. Member who said the last thing you ever. wanted was to use Government credit for this purpose. I do not agree for a moment. I am certain

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      that when you are faced with the alternative of outdoor relief and unemployment pay which is costing the State money and which is costing the ratepayers money—this is a wise use of our credit. You cannot adopt the alternative of doing nothing, because people cannot sit and starve till the world comes round. Long before hon. Members fought their election my right hon. Friend and I were passing the Trade Facilities Act.
      Mr. SHINWELL: What has it accomplished?
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: £28,000,000 of work. It is being done at present. Go and look at the extension of the tube railways. See the work which is being carried on in the factories and workshops. There are 100,000 men employed to-day in different factories, workshops and undertakings by means of that Act. Then come back and criticise what is being done after you have gone to see it. I am sure, faced with that position, a wise policy of the use of Government credit in order to assist trade and industry is right. But you have to be careful in the use of that credit that you do not discourage work which in any case would be put in hand. That is the difficulty. If you offer too easy terms, if you are too generous with your credit, people who would naturally go ahead hold back. You may get cases on the border line. That has got to be carefully watched. But, generally speaking, it is a wise and sound policy to use Government credit in order to anticipate new work which could not be done in the next three or four years, work of a practical, revenue-producing kind. I am not merely stating a principle, but it is a principle which the Government are carrying out.
      I have spoken of things like the Trade Facilities Act and Export Credits, but we have also sent a Circular—the questions of public works and electricity were raised—to all the local authorities in the country informing them that if they would put in hand works of a revenue-producing kind which they would not normally undertake in the immediate future, work of a kind which would place engineering orders and orders for materials in those industries which most need orders of that kind, the Government will come to their help and will make an advance of 50 per cent. of the interest charges up to a period of 15 years in the case of a loan. We are also pre-
      858
      pared to do the same thing for public companies carrying on the same class of work. Some of them already are under statutory provisions in respect of dividends, but in the case of others which are not we are prepared to do it—there will be a possibility of going into details when we discuss the unemployment question—if they accept the conditions as to repayment or as to limitation of the dividend declared during the time in which the loan is in operation.
      Then one of my hon. Friends said, "What are you doing in the case of the Dominions? Do you intend to bring this policy before the Imperial Economic Conference?" Most certainly we do. I announced that that would be our intention last April. This question of financial co-operation is one which we are anxious to discuss with the Dominions and we have tabled it on the Agenda.
      Captain BERKELEY: Crown Colonies as well?
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: Certainly. We have sent to the Prime Ministers of the Dominions a telegram saying that we are anxious to discuss this matter, and that without excluding from consideration any form of assistance, we consider that a guarantee of interest or advance of part interest for a limited period would be likely to prove the most useful method. With regard to the Crown Colonies, my noble Friend the Secretary of State is working on these schemes that were referred to in the Debate yesterday. The same principle will apply there, and we shall go forward at the Imperial Conference, and in the work of the Colonial Office in dealing with Crown Colony development, with the firm intention of helping sound schemes which will anticipate development which will mean the placing of orders in this country and the development of an area, which will draw settlers from here to the Dominions. I am certain you can never settle the top-heavy position of our population merely by treating it as an insular problem. You have to settle the ratio of the industrial to the agricultural population by treating it, broadly, over the whole Empire. This policy of anticipation will give that opportunity. It is a way of placing orders in this country, and with each scheme of development of that kind that can be put forward, you are not merely helping to

      859
      relieve unemployment, but you are creating a source of supply of raw materials, and you are creating a market which will buy from you increasingly in the future.
      I have said enough, I think, to show that we not only profess this principle, but that we are prepared to act upon it, and that we are acting upon it in fact. I will add only one word more, I have said that the whole hangs together, that settlement is necessary as well as the development of your Imperial trade. The hon. Member for Linlithgow said—
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will you reply to what—
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: I cannot give way. The time is too short.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Will you not reply—
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: No.
      Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: It is more important than your peroration.
      Sir P. LLOYD-GREAME: The hon. and gallant Member not infrequently intervenes, but I will do him the justice of saying that he is not usually as offensive as that. The words I have to add are not in the nature of a mere peroration; they are something which I think the House would wish should be said. The hon. Member for Linlithgow said there was a responsibility upon the Government in this matter. There is. There is a responsibility upon the Government to work for a policy of settlement and settled conditions in Europe; there is a responsibility upon the Government to work for a policy of Imperial expansion, of the development of our Imperial resources; there is a responsibility upon the Government to try in the most effective way to deal with the unemployment problem at home. But the responsibility does not rest upon the Government alone. It rests on every
      Member of this House; it rests on every one in this country, because whatever a Government may do, however keen it may be, however ready it may be to use its credit, to use its power, to restore trade, to help to create conditions in which trade can go forward, all that is nothing unless the people of this country—they may dispute about the particular system and about the division of profits when there are profits to divide—but the policy of a Government cannot save this country or restore its trade, cannot put its employment upon a stable and sound basis, unless all in industry, employers and employed, are ready to pull together to see the country through.
      It being Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Classes I to VII of the Civil Services Estimates, and of the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates, the Air Force Estimates, the Revenue Departments Estimates, and other outstanding Resolutions severally.

    CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

      CLASS I.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class I of the Civil Services Estimates."
      Put, and agreed to.

      CLASS II.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class II of the Civil Services Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 273; Noes, 193.

      Division No. 327.]

      AYES.

      [10.0 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Berry, Sir George

      Apsley, Lord

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick w.

      Becker, Harry

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Perring, William George

      Blundell, F.N.

      Harmsworth, Hon. E.C.(Kent)

      Peto, Basil E.

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

      Harrison, F. C.

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Brass, Captain W.

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Privett, F. J.

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Raine, W.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Bruford, R.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Bruton, Sir James

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Remer, J. R.

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Remnant, Sir James

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Houfton, John Plowright

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Button, H. S.

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Cassels, J. D.

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Clayton, G. C.

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Singleton, J. E.

      Cope, Major William

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Skelton, A. N.

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Lorden, John William

      Spender-Clay, Lieu.-Colonel H. H.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Stanley, Lord

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Lougher, L.

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Lumley, L. R.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Macnaghton, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Makins, Brigadier-General E.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Ellis, R. G.

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Manville, Edward

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Litchfield, Marquess of

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Faille, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Waring, Major Walter

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Wells, S. R.

      Furness, G. J.

      Murchison, C. K.

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Nall, Major Joseph

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Garland, C. S.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Winterton, Earl

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Wise, Frederick

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Wormer, Viscount

      Gould, James C.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Paget, T. G.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Commander the Rt. Hon. B. M. Eyres-Monsell and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

      Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

      Penny, Frederick George

      Halstead, Major D.

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      862

      863

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Grundy, T. W.

      Paling, W.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Guthrie, Thomas Mauler

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

      Parkinson, R. (Grantham)

      Ammon, Charles George

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Pattinson, S. (Herncastle)

      Attlee, C. R.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Harbord, Arthur

      Potts, John S.

      Barnes, A.

      Hardie, George D.

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Batey, Joseph

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Hastings, Patrick

      Riley, Ben

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Ritson, J.

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Hayday, Arthur

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Bonwick, A.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Hemmerde, E. G.

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Briant, Frank

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Broad, F. A.

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Bromfield, William

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Saklatvala, S.

      Brotherton, J.

      Herriotts, J.

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hill, A.

      Sexton, James

      Buckle, J.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Burgess, S.

      Hinds, John

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Cape, Thomas

      Hutcheson, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Smillie, Robert

      Chapple, W. A.

      Irving, Dan

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Charleten, H. C.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Snell, Harry

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Snowden, Philip

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Collie, Sir John

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Collison, Levi

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

      Sullivan, J

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Lansbury, George

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Lawson, John James

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Leach, W.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Lee, F.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Duncan, C.

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Thornton, M.

      Dunnico, H.

      Linfield, F. C.

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Ede, James Chuter

      Lowth, T.

      Tout, W. J.

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Lunn, William

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Edmonds, G.

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Turner, Ben

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Wallhead, Richard C.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Warne, G. H.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      McLaren, Andrew

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Evans. Ernest (Cardigan)

      March, S.

      Webb, Sidney

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Falconer, J.

      Middleton, G.

      Westwood, J.

      Fides, Henry

      Millar, J. D.

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Fisher. Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Morel, E. D.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Foot, Isaac

      Morris, Harold

      Whiteley, W.

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Mosley, Oswald

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Gosling, Harry

      Muir, John W.

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Murnin, H.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Wright, W.

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Greenall, T.

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Groves, T.

      Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

      CLASS III.
      Question.
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class III of the Civil
      Services Estimates."
      Put, and agreed to.

      CLASS IV.
      Question put.
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class IV of the Civil Services Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 305; Noes, 175.

      Division No. 328]

      AYES.

      [10.11 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Apsley, Lord

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Fildes, Henry

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Makings, Brigadier-General E.

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Barrie, Sir Charles Cougar (Banff)

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Manville, Edward

      Becker, Harry

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Furness, G. J.

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Berry, Sir George

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Betterfon, Henry B.

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Garland, C. S.

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Blundell, F. N.

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Mordent, Col. W. Grant

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Morris, Harold

      Brass, Captain W.

      Gould, James C.

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.G. (Monition)

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Murchison, C. K.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Nail, Major Joseph

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Bruford, R.

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Ambridge)

      Bruton, Sir James

      Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Halstead, Major D.

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Paget, T. G.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Harrison, F. C.

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Pennefather, De Fonblangue

      Button, H. S.

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Penny, Frederick George

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Cassels, J. D.

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Purring, William George

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Peto, Basil E.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Philipson, Mabel

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Hinds, John

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Privet, F. J.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Hogg Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Rae, Sir William H.

      Chapman Sir, S.

      Hohler Gerald Fitzroy

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Raine, W.

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Clayton, G. C.

      Houfton, John Plowright

      Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Rees, Sir Bedded

      Cockerlil, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Reamer, J. R.

      Collie, Sir John

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Remnant, Sir James

      Cope, Major William

      Hunter-Weston, Lt-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nige

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Sandon, Lord

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Ednam, Viscount

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Ellis, R. G.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Shepperson, E. W.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Lorden, John William

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Lougher, L.

      Singleton, J. E.

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Skelton, A. N.

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Lumley, L. R.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      866

      867

      Stanley, Lord

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Winterton, Earl

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Wise, Frederick

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

      Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Waring, Major Walter

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Wells, S. R.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Commander the Rt. Hon. B. M. Eyres-Monsell and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Harbord, Arthur

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Hardie, George D.

      Potts, John S.

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Hastings,

      Patrick Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Attlee, C. R.

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Riley, Ben

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Hayday, Arthur

      Ritson, J.

      Barnes, A.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Batey, Joseph

      Hemmerde, E. G.

      Roberts, Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Herriotts, J.

      Rose, Frank H.

      Bonwick, A.

      Hill, A.

      Saklatvala, S.

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Brian, Frank

      Hirst, G. H.

      Sexton, James

      Broad, F. A.

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Bromfield, William

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Brotherton, J.

      Irving, Dan

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Buckle, J.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Burgess, S.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Smillie, Robert

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Snell, Harry

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Snowden, Philip

      Cape, Thomas

      Jowiti, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Chapple, W. A.

      Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

      Spoor, B. G.

      Charleton, H. C.

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Sullivan, J.

      Clynes, Rt Hon. John R.

      Lansbury, George

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Lawson, John James

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Collison, Leval

      Leach, W.

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Lee, F.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Derbyshire, C. W.

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Linfield, F. C.

      Thornton, M.

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Lowth, T.

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Lunn, William

      Tout, W. J.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Turner, Ben

      Duncan, C.

      McLaren, Andrew

      Wallhead, Richard C.

      Dunnico, H.

      Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

      Warne, G. H.

      Ede, James Chuter

      March, S.

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Edmonds, G.

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Middleton, G.

      Webb, Sidney

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Millar, J. D.

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Morel, E. D.

      Westwood, J.

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Falconer, J.

      Mosley, Oswald

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Foot, Isaac

      Muir, John W.

      Whiteley, W.

      Gosling, Harry

      Murnin, H.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Greenall, T.

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Wintring ham, Margaret

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Cone)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.;

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Wright, W.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Paling, W.

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Groves, T.

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.

      Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      CLASS V.
      Question put.
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
      868
      reported in respect of Class V of the Civil Services Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 281; Noes, 200.

      Division No. 329.]

      AYES.

      [10.22 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Makings, Brigadier-General E.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Manville, Edward

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Apsley, Lord

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Astor, Viscountess

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Furness, G. J.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Garland, C. S.

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Becker, Harry

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Been, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Murchison, C. K.

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Berry, Sir George

      Gould, James C.

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Blundell, F. N.

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'pl, W. D'by)

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Brass, Captain W.

      Halstead, Major D.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Paget, T. G.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Pease, William Edwin

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Harrison, F. C.

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Penny, Frederick George

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Bruford, R.

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Bruton, Sir James

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Perring, William George

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Peto, Basil E.

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Philipson, Mabel

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Milder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Murylebone)

      Privett, F. J.

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Button, H. S.

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Raine, W.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Moulton, John Plowright

      Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

      Cassels, J. D.

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Coney, Henry Strother

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Remer, J. R.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Remnant, Sir James

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Hume, G. H.

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Robertson- Dispenser, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Clayton, G. C.

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Cope, Major William

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Cory, Sir I. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Sanden, Lord

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Borden, John William

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Singleton, J. E.

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Skelton, A. N.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Lougher, L.

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Ednam, Viscount

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Ellis, R. G.

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Lumley, L. R.

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Stanley, Lord

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      870

      871

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Winterton, Earl

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Tartans, Edmund Russborough

      Wise, Frederick

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Waring, Major Waiter

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Wells, S. R.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Whaler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Captain Douglas King.

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Grundy, T. W.

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Guthrie, Thomas Maule

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Ammon, Charles George

      Hail, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Attlee, C. R.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Potts, John S.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Harbord, Arthur

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Barnes, A.

      Hardie, George D.

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Harney, E. A.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Batey, Joseph

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Riley, Ben

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Hastings, Patrick

      Ritson, J.

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Hayday, Arthur

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Bonwick, A.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Hemmerde, E. G.

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Briant, Frank

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Broad, F. A.

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Saklatvala, S.

      Bromfield, William

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Brotherton, J.

      Herriotts, J.

      Sexton, James

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hill, A.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Buckle, J.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Burgess, S.

      Hinds, John

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Snitch, Charles H.

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Smillie, Robert

      Cape, Thomas

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Chapple, W. A.

      Irving, Dan

      Snell, Harry

      Charleton, H. C.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Snowden, Philip

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Collie, Sir John

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Collison, Levi

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Sturrock,, J. Leng

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Sullivan, J.

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Lansbury, George

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Lawson, John James

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Leach, W.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Lee, F.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Thornton, M.

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Linfield, F. C.

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Duncan, C.

      Lowth, T.

      Tout, W. J.

      Dunnico, H.

      Lunn, William

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Ede, James Chute

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Turner, Ben

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Wallhead, Richard C.

      Edmonds, G.

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      McLaren, Andrew

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Emlyn-Jones, J. C. (Dorset, N.)

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Webb, Sidney

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      March, S.

      Weir, L. M.

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Westwood, J.

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Middleton, G.

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Falconer, J.

      Millar, J. D.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Fildes, Henry

      Morel, E. D.

      Whiteley, W.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Morris, Harold

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Foot, Isaac

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Mosley, Oswald

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Muir, John W.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Gosling, Harry

      Murnin, H.

      Wintrinqham, Margaret

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Wright, W.

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Greenall, T.

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Cone)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Oliver, George Harold

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Philip and Sir A. Marshall.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Paling, W.

      Groves, T.

      CLASS VI
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Services Estimate."
      Put, and agreed to.

      CLASS VII
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
      reported in respect of Class VII of the Civil Services Estimates."
      Put, and agreed to.

      NAVY ESTIMATES, 1922–23.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Navy Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 313; Noes, 164.

      Division No. 330.]

      AYES.

      [10.34 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Apsley, Lord

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Hinds, John

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth. Brixton)

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Astor. J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Holler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Astor, Viscountess

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Houfton, John Plowright

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Becker, Harry

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hume, G. H.

      Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Ednam, Viscount

      Hums-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Ellis, R. G.

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Berry, Sir George

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Blundell, F. N.

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Brass, Captain W.

      Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Bridgernan, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Fildes, Henry

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Flanagan, W. H.

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Bruford, R.

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Bruton, Sir James

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Furness, G. J.

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Garland, C. S.

      Locker-Lampson, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Lorden, John William

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Button, H. S.

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Lougher, L.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Cassels, J. D.

      Gould, James C.

      Lumley, L. R.

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Gretton, Colonel John

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Guthrie, Thomas Maule

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Manville, Edward

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'hy)

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Halstead, Major D.

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Clayton, G. C.

      Harbord, Arthur

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Harrison, F. C.

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Collox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Collie, Sir John

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Morris, Harold

      Remer, J. R.

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Remnant, Sir James

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Murchison, C. K.

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J (Westminster)

      Rothschild. Lionel de

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Litchfield, Marquess of

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Burton, Edmund Russborough

      Paget, T. G.

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Pease, William Edwin

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Waring, Major Waiter

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Sandon, Lord

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      Penny, Frederick George

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Livers, Exchange)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Wells, S. R.

      Belting, William George

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Peto, Basil E.

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Philipson, Mabel

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A,

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Singleton, J. E.

      Winterton, Earl

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Skelton, A. N.

      Wise, Frederick

      Privet, F. J.

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Raine, W.

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Stanley, Lord

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Hennessy and Major Cope.

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Jswitt, W. A. (The Hartlepool)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Falconer, J.

      Lansbury, George

      Ammon. Charles George

      Foot, Isaac

      Lawson, John James

      Attlee, C. R.

      Gosling, Harry

      Leach, W.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Lee, F.

      Barnes, A.

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Batey, Joseph

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Linfield, F. C.

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Greenall, T.

      Lowth, T.

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coigne)

      Lunn, William

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Bonwick, A.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Groves, T.

      McLaren, Andrew

      Briant, Frank

      Grundy, T. W.

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Broad, F. A.

      Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

      March, S.

      Bromfield, William

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Brotherton, J.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Middleton, G.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hardie, George D.

      Millar, J. D.

      Buckle, J.

      Harney, E. A.

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Burgess, S.

      Harris, Percy A.

      Mosley, Oswald

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Murnin, H.

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hastings, Patrick

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Cape, Thomas

      Hayday, Arthur

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Chapple, W. A.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Charleton, H. C.

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Paling, W.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Herriotts, J.

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Collision, Levi

      Hill, A.

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Hillary, A. E.

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Hirst, G. H.

      Phillips, Vivian

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Potts, John S.

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Hodge, Lieut-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Irving, Dan

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Riley, Ben

      Duncan, C.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Ritson, J.

      Dunnico, H.

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Ede, James Chuter

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Edmonds, G.

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Rose, Frank H.

      876

      877

      Saklatvala, S

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Westwood, J.

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Sexton, James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      White, H. G (Birkenhead, E.)

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Whiteley, W.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Thornton, M.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Gillett, Benjamin

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Tout, W. J.

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Smillie, Robert

      Turner, Ben

      Wintring ham, Margaret

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Warne, G. H.

      Wright, W.

      Snowden, Philip

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Webb, Sidney

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Major McKenzie Wood and Sir A. Marshall.

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Sullivan, J.

      Weir, L. M.

      ARMY ESTIMATES, 1922–23
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
      reported in respect of the Army Estimates (including Ordnance Factories Estimate)."
      The House divided: Ayes, 309; Noes, 174.

      Division No. 331.]

      AYES.

      [10.45 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Clayton, G. C.

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Guthrie, Thomas Mauls

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Gwynns, Rupert S.

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Collie, Sir John

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Apsley, Lord

      Cope, Major William

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D')

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Halstead, Major D.

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Astor, Viscountess

      Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Harrison, F. C.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Becker, Harry

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Herbert Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Berry, Sir George

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Hitey, Sir Ernest

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Edam, Viscount

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Blundell, F. N.

      Ellis, R. G.

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Moistly)

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Houlton, John Plowright

      Brass, Captain W.

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Hughes, Coiling wood

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Hume, G. H.

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Hume-Williams, SFr W. Ellis

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Bruford, R.

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Bruton, Sir James

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Fides, Henry

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Flanagan, W. H.

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Fremantle, Lieut.Colonel Francis E.

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Button, H. S.

      Furness, G. J.

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederic A.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Cassels, J. D.

      Garland, C. S.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Gould, James C.

      Locker-Lampoon, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Lorden, John William

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Lougher, L.

      Philipson, Mabel

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Stanley, Lord

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Lumley, L. R.

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Privet, F. J.

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Caine, W.

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Manville, Edward

      Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Remer, J. R.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Remnant, Sir James

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Robertson- Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Morris, Harold

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Waring, Major Walter

      Murchison, C. K.

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Wells, S. R.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Sandon, Lord

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Winterton, Earl

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Wise, Frederick

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Paget, T. G.

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Singleton, J. E.

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Skelton, A. N.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Penny, Frederick George

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lieut.-Colonel Roundell and Major Colfox.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Perring, William George

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Peto, Basil E.

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Herriotts, J.

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Duncan, C.

      Hill, A.

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillbro')

      Dunnico, H.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Ede, James Chuter

      Hinds, John

      Attlee, C. R.

      Edmonds, G.

      Hirst, G. H.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Barnes, A.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E (Dorset, N.)

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston.)

      Batey, Joseph

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Irving, Dan

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Falconer, J.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Foot, Isaac

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Bonwick, A.

      Gosling, Harry

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Briant, Frank

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Broad, F. A.

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Bromfield, William

      Greenall, T.

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Brotherton, J.

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins,

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Buckle, J.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Burgess, S.

      Groves, T.

      Lansbury, George

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Lawson, John James

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

      Leach, W.

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Lee, F.

      Cape, Thomas

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Chapple, W. A.

      Harbord, Arthur

      Infield, F. C.

      Charleton, H. C.

      Hardie, George D.

      Lowth, T.

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Harney, E. A.

      Lunn, William

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Harris, Percy A.

      MacDonald, J.R. (Aberavon)

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Collison, Levi

      Hastings, Patrick

      McLaren, Andrew

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

      Derbyshire, C. W.

      Hayday, Arthur

      March, S.

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Middleton, G.

      880

      881

      Millar, J. D.

      Royce, William Stapleton

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Morel, E. D.

      Saklatvala, S.

      Turner, Ben

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Warne, G. H.

      Mosley, Oswald

      Sexton, James

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Murnin, H.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Webb, Sidney

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Weir, L. M.

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Westwood, J.

      Oliver, George Harold

      Sitch, Charles H.

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Paling, W.

      Smillie, Robert

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Whiteley, W.

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Snowden, Philip

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Phillipps, Vivian

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Spoor, B. G.

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Potts, John S.

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Sullivan, J.

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Wright, W.

      Ridley, Ben

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Ritson, J.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Thornton, M.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Major McKenzie Wood and Sir A. Marshall.

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Tout, W. J.

      Rose, Frank H.

      AIR FORCE ESTIMATES, 1921–22.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
      reported in respect of the Air Force Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 160.

      Division No. 332.]

      AYES.

      [10.56 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner. Sir James Tynte

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Apsley, Lord

      Chapman, Sir S

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Furness, G. J.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Astor, Viscountess

      Clayton, G. C.

      Garland, C. S.

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Collie, Sir John

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Cope, Major William

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Becker, Harry

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Berry, Sir George

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Guthrie, Thomas Mauler

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Blundell, F. N.

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Livip'l,W. D'by)

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Halstead, Major D.

      Brass, Captain W.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Harbord, Arthur

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Harrison, F. C.

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Bruford, R.

      Ednam, Viscount

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Bruton, Sir James

      Ellis, R. G.

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Hinds, John

      Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Button, H. S.

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

      Cassels, J. D.

      Fildes, Henry

      Moulton, John Plowright

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Hudson, Capt. A

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Hume, G. H.

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)

      Singleton, J. E.

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Skelton, A. N.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Smarr, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Paget, T. G.

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Stanley, Lord

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Pease, William Edwin

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Johnson, Sir L. (Waarramstow, E.)

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Penny, Frederick George

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Stott, Lt -Col. W. H.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Perring, William George

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Peto, Basil E.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Philipson, Mabel

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Privett, F. J.

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Locker-Lampson, Come. O. (Handsw'th)

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Lorden, John William

      Raeburn, Sir Gilliam H.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Raine, W.

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Lougher, L.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Rees, Sir Bedded

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Lumley, L. R.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Remer, J. R.

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Remnant, Sir James

      Waring, Major Walter

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Warrington)

      Manville, Edward

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Wells, S. R.

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn.W)

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Rothschild. Lionel de

      Winterton, Earl

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Wise, Frederick

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich. West)

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Wood, Ma). Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Morris, Harold

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Hositon)

      Sandon, Lord

      Murchison, C. K.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Charleton, H. C.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Groves, T.

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Grundy, T. W.

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Hall, F. (York, WAR., Normanton)

      Ammon, Charles George

      Collison, Levi

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Attlee, C. R.

      Derbyshire, C. W.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Hardie, George D.

      Barnes, A.

      Davies, Rays John (Westhoughton)

      Harris, Percy A.

      Batey, Joseph

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Hastings, Patrick

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Duncan, C.

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Bonwick, A.

      Dunnico, H.

      Hayday, Arthur

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Ede, James Chuter

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Briant, Frank

      Edmonds, G.

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.).

      Broad, F. A.

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Bromfield, William

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Herriotts, J.

      Brotherton, J.

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Hill, A.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Foot, Isaac

      Hillary, A. E.

      Buckle, J.

      Gosling, Harry

      Hirst, G. H.

      Burgess, S.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. P. (Preston)

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Irving, Dan

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Greenall, T.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Cape, Thomas

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Cone)

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Chapple, W. A.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      884

      885

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Paling, W.

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Jones, T. f. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Thornton, M.

      Lansbury, George

      Potts, John S.

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Lawson, John James

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Tout, W. J.

      Leach, W.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Lee, F.

      Riley, Ben

      Turner, Ben

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Ritnon, J.

      Warne, G. H.

      Linfield, F. C.

      Roberts, Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Lowth, T.

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Lunn, William

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Webb, Sidney

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Royce, William Stapleton

      Weir, L. M.

      McLaren, Andrew

      Saklatvala, S.

      Westwood, J.

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      White, H. G (Birkenhead, E.)

      March, S.

      Sexton, James

      Whiteley, W.

      Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Middleton, G.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Millar, J. D.

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Morel, E. D.

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Wintering ham, Margaret

      Mosley, Oswald

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Wright, W.

      Murnin, H.

      Smillie, Robert

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Snowden, Philip

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillips and Major McKenzie Wood.

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Spoor, B. G.

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Oliver, George Harold

      Sullivan, J.

      REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1922–23.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions
      reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates."
      The House divided: Ayes, 280; Noes, 192.

      Division No. 333.]

      AYES.

      [11.7 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner. Sir James Tynte

      Button, H. S.

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Cassels, J. D.

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Apsley, Lord

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Furness, G. J.

      Astor, Viscountess

      Chapman, Sir S.

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Garland, C. S.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Clayton, G. C.

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Barnstorm, Major Harry

      Cockerel, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Cohen, Major J. Brunel

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Becker, Harry

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Collie, Sir John

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Cope, Major William

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Berry, Sir George

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by)

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Halstead, Major D.

      Bird. Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Blundell, F. N.

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

      Harrison, F. C.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Brass, Captain W.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Bruford, R.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Bruton, Sir James

      Ednam, Viscount

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Ellis, R. G.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)

      Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Houfton, John Playwright

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Hume, G. H.

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Singleton, J. E.

      Hurd, Percy A.

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Skelton, A. N.

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Paget, T. G.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Penny, Frederick George

      Stanley, Lord

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Percy, Lord Esstace (Hastings)

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Johnson-Hicks, Sir William

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Perring, William George

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Peto, Basil E.

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      King, Capt. Henry Douglas

      Philip, Mabel

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Lamb, J. O.

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Privett, F. J.

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Raine, W.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Lorden, John William

      Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Laugher, L.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Remer, J. R.

      Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Remnant, Sir James

      Ward, Col. J. (Stake-upon-Trent)

      Lumley, L. R.

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Waring, Major Walter

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Wells, S. R.

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Manville, Edward

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Rothschildm Lionel de

      Winterton, Earl

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Wise, Frederick

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Yerburgh, R D. T.

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Sandon, Lord

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Major Hacking.

      Murchison, C. K.

      Bassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Collison, Levi

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Greenall, T.

      Adamson, W. M (Staff., Cannock)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Calne)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Derbyshire, C. W.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Ammon, Charles George

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Attlee, C. R.

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Groves, T.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Barnes, A.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Batey, Joseph

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Guthrie, Thomas Mauler

      Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Duncan, C.

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Bonwick, A.

      Dunnico, H.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Ede, James Chuter

      Harbord, Arthur

      Briant, Frank

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Hardie, George D.

      Broad, F. A.

      Edmonds, G.

      Harris, Percy A.

      Bromfield, William

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Brotherton, J.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Hastings, Patrick

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Entwistle, Major C. F

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Buckle, J.

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Hayday, Arthur

      Burgess, S.

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Falconer, J.

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Fildes, Henry

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Cape, Thomas

      Foot, Isaac

      Herriotts, J.

      Chapple, W. A.

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Hill, A.

      Charleton, H. C.

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Hillary, A. E.

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Gosling, Harry

      Hinds, John

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      888

      889

      Hodge, Lieut, Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Newbold, J. T. W.

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Sullivan, J.

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Paling, W.

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Parker, H. (Hanley)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Parkinson, R. (Grantham)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Thornton, M.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Gillett, Benjamin

      Lansbury, George

      Potts, John S.

      Tout, W. J.

      Lawson, John James

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Trevelyan, C. P.

      Leach, W.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Turner, Ben

      Lee, F.

      Riley, Ben

      Warne, G. H.

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Ritson, J.

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Linfield, F. C.

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Lowth, T.

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Webb, Sidney

      Lunn, William

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Weir, L. M.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Westwood, J.

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Royce, William Stapleton

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      McLaren, Andrew

      Saklatvala, S.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Whiteley, W.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Sexton, James

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      March, S.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Middleton, G.

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Millar, J. D.

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Wright, W.

      Morel, E. D.

      Snitch, Charles H.

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Morris, Harold

      Smillie, Robert

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Mosley, Oswald

      Snowden, Philip

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Philip and Major McKenzie Wood.

      Murnin, H.

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      UNEMPLOYMENT GRANTS.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Unemployment Grants,"
      Put, and agreed to.

      RELIEF OF UNEMPLOYMENT.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for the Relief of Unemployment."
      Put, and agreed to.

      EXPORT CREDITS.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
      reported in respect of the Estimate for Export Credits."
      Put, and agreed to.

      CRIMINAL INJURIES (IRELAND) COMPENSATION.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Compensation."
      Put, and agreed to.

      NORTHERN IRELAND (GRANTS-IN-AID).
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Northern Ireland (Grants-in-Aid)."
      The House divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 183.

      Division No. 334.]

      AYES.

      [11.17 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Becker, Harry

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Apsley, Lord

      Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Berry, Sir George

      Brutord, R.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Bruton, Sir James

      Astor, J, J. (Kent Dover)

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Astor, Viscountess

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Blundell, F. N.

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Brass, Captain W.

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Button, H. S.

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Raine, W.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Cassels, J. D.

      Houfton, John Plowright

      Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Reamer, J. R.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Hume, G. H.

      Remnant, Sir James

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Clayton, G. C.

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Cope, Major William

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Rothschild. Lionel de

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

      Lamb, J. Q.

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Sandon, Lord

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Lorden, John William

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Ednam, Viscount

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Ellis, R. G.

      Lougher, L.

      Singleton, J. E.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Skelton, A. N.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Loyd, Arthur T. (Abingdon)

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Lumley, L. R.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Stanley, Lord

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Manville, Edward

      Stewart, Gershon (Wirral)

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Mitchell, Sir G. Lane (Streatham)

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Furness, G. J.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. S. T. C.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Morden, Col. G. Grant

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Garland, C. S.

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Morrison—Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Murchison, C. K.

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Wallace, Captain E.

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Newton, Sir Percy Wilson

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Waring, Major Walter

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Warrington)

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Wells, S. R.

      Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llvp'l, W.D'by)

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Halstead, Major D.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Paget, T. G.

      Wilson. Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Pease, William Edwin

      Winterton, Earl

      Harrison, F. C.

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Wise, Frederick

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Penny, Frederick George

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

      Purring, William George

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Peto, Basil E.

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Philipson, Mabel

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Hadley, Sir Ernest

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asnheton

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—Lieut.-Colonel Roundell and Major Colfox.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Privett, F. J.

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      892

      893

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Grundy, T. W.

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Guthrie, Thomas Mauls

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton)

      Potts, John S.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Attlee, C. R.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Harbord, Arthur

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Barnes, A.

      Hardie, George D.

      Riley, Ben

      Barrie, Sir Charles Cougar (Banff)

      Harris, Percy A.

      Ritson, J.

      Batey, Joseph

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Hayday, Arthur

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Bonwick, A.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Royce, William Stapleton

      Briant, Frank

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Saklatvala, S.

      Broad, F. A.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Brotherton, J.

      Herriotts, J.

      Sexton, James

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hill, A.

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Buckle, J.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Burgess, S.

      Hinds, John

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Cape, Thomas

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Smillie, Robert

      Chapple, W. A.

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Charleton, H. C.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Snowden, Philip

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Collie, Sir John

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Collison, Levi

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Sullivan, J.

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Lansbury, George

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Lawson, John James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Leach, W.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Lee, F.

      Thornton, M.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Linfield, F. C.

      Tout, W. J.

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Lowth, T.

      Turner, Ben

      Duncan, C.

      Lunn, William

      Warne, G. H.

      Dunnico, H.

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Ede, James Chuter

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      McLaren, Andrew

      Webb, Sidney

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      March, S.

      Weir, L. M.

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

      Westwood, J.

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Middleton, G.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Falconer, J.

      Millar, J. D.

      Whiteley, W.

      Fildes, Henry

      Morel, E. D.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Morris, Harold

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Foot, Isaac

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Mosley, Oswald

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Murnin, H.

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Gosling, Harry

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Wright, W.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Greenall, T.

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Cone)

      Oliver, George Harold

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillips and Major McKenzie Wood.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Paling, W.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Groves, T.

      DISPOSAL AND LIQUIDATION COMMISSION.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
      reported in respect of the Estimate for the Disposal and Liquidation Commission."
      The House divided: Ayes, 294; Noes, 166.

      Division No. 335]

      AYES.

      [11.27 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Blundell, F. N.

      Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Becker, Harry

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Astor, Viscountess

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Brass, Captain W.

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Berry, Sir George

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Paget, T. G.

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by)

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Bruford, R.

      Halstead, Major D.

      Pease, William Edwin

      Bruton, Sir James

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Pennefather, De Fonblanque

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Penny, Frederick George

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Perring, William George

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Peto, Basil E.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Philipson, Mabel

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Button, H. S.

      Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Hiley. Sir Ernest

      Privett, F. J.

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Cassels, J. D.

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Raine, W.

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Cecil. Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

      Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Houlton, John Plowright

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Remer, J. R.

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Clayton, G. C.

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Cobb, Sir Cyril

      Hume, G. H.

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Collie, Sir John

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Rothschild Lionel de

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Roundell, Colonel R. F.

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Russell, Alexander West. (Tynemouth)

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

      Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Sandon, Lord

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      King, Captain Henry Douglas

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Lamb, J. Q

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Shepperson, E. W.

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Ednam, Viscount

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Ellis, R. G.

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Singleton, J. E.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Lorden, John William

      Skelton, A. N.

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain R.

      Lort Williams, J.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

      Lougher, L.

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Eyres-M resell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

      Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Lumley, L. R.

      Stanley, Lord

      Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Steel-Major S. Strang

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

      Fildes, Henry

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

      Manville, Edward

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Margesson, H. D. R

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Furness, G. J.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Garland, C. S.

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen. South)

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Morris, Harold

      Thornton, M.

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      Murchison, C. K.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Nall, Major Joseph

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Gould, James C.

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Waring, Major Walter

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Wells, S. R.

      Guthrie, Thomas Maule

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      896

      897

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Winterton, Earl

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—Major Hennessy and Major Cope.

      Wise, Frederick

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Phillips, Vivian

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Harbord, Arthur

      Potts, John S.

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Hardie, George D.

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Harney, E. A.

      Remnant, Sir James

      Attlee, C. R.

      Harris, Percy A.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Riley, Ben

      Barnes, A.

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Ritson, J.

      Batey, Joseph

      Hayday, Arthur

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Bonwick, A.

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Hand)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Herriotts, J.

      Rose, Frank H.

      Briant, Frank

      Hill, A.

      Royce, William Stapleton

      Broad, F. A.

      Hillary, A. E.

      Saklatvala, S.

      Brotherton, J.

      Hinds, John

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Sexton, James

      Buckle, J.

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Burgess, S.

      Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

      Shinwell, Emanuel

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Cape, Thomas

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Chapple, W. A.

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Charleton, H. C.

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Snowden, Philip

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Jewett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

      Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Spoor, B. G.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Kenyon, Barnet

      Sullivan, J.

      Collison, Levi

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Lansbury, George

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Darbyshire, C. W.

      Lawson, John James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Leach, W.

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Lee, F.

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Tout, W. J.

      Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

      Linfield, F. C.

      Turner, Ben

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      Lowth, T.

      Warne, G. H.

      Duffy, T. Gavan

      Lunn, William

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Duncan, C.

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Dunnico, H.

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Webb, Sidney

      Ede, James Chuter

      McLaren, Andrew

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Edmonds, G.

      Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

      Weir, L. M.

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      March, S.

      Westwood, J.

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Entwistle, Major C. F.

      Middleton, G.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Millar, J. D.

      Whiteley, W.

      Falconer, J.

      Morel, E. D.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Foot, Isaac

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Gosling, Harry

      Mosley, Oswald

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Burnie, H.

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Greenall, T.

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Wright, W.

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins)

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Oliver, George Harold

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Paling, W.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir A. Marshall and Major McKenzie Wood.

      Groves, T.

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Grundy, T. W.

      Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

      Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

      Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

      SHIPPING LIQUIDATION
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Shipping Liquidation."
      Put, and agreed to.

      RAILWAY AND CANAL (WAR) AGREEMENTS LIQUIDATION.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution
      898
      reported in respect of the Estimate for Railway and Canal (War) Agreements Liquidation."
      Put, and agreed to.

      COAL MINES DEFICIENCY.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for the Coal Mines Deficiency."
      Put, and agreed to.

      PRIZE CLAIMS.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Prize Claims."
      Put, and agreed to.

      COAL MINING INDUSTRY SUBVENTION.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of the Estimate for Coal Mining Industry Subvention."
      Put, and agreed to.

      GRANTS FOR COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE BY ENEMY ACTION.
      Question.
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Grants for Compensation for Damage by Enemy Action."
      Put, and agreed to.

      TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN, GRANT-IN-AID.
      Question put,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Trinity College, Dublin, Grant-in-Aid."
      The House divided: Ayes, 270; Noes, 176.

      Division No. 336

      AYES.

      [11.39 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

      Cope, Major William

      Hiley, Sir Ernest

      Ainsworth, Captain Charles

      Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

      Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

      Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. M Marylebone)

      Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

      Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Hood, Sir Joseph

      Ashley, At: Col. Wilfrid W.

      Curzon, Captain Viscount

      Hopkins, John W. W.

      Westbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

      Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

      Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

      Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

      Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

      Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

      Astor, Viscountess

      Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

      Houfton, John Plowright

      Balfour, George (Hampstead)

      Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

      Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

      Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

      Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

      Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

      Dawson, Sir Philip

      Hudson, Capt. A.

      Barnett, Major Richard W.

      Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

      Hughes, Collingwood

      Barnston, Major Harry

      Doyle, N. Grattan

      Hume, G. H.

      Becker, Harry

      Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

      Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

      Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

      Edmondson, Major A. J.

      Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

      Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Edam, Viscount

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Berry, Sir George

      Ellis, R. G.

      Hurst, Gerald B.

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

      Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

      Birchall, Major J. Dearman

      Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

      Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

      Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

      Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Falcon, Captain Michael

      Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

      Blundell, F. N.

      Faille, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

      Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

      Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

      Fawkes, Major F. H.

      Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

      Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

      Flanagan, W. H.

      Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

      Brass, Captain W.

      Foreman, Sir Henry

      Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

      Brassey, Sir Leonard

      Forestier-Walker, L.

      King, Capt. Henry Douglas

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Fraser, Major Sir Keith

      Lamb, J. O.

      Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

      Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

      Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

      Furness, G. J.

      Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

      Bruford, R.

      Galbraith, J. F. W.

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Bruton, Sir James

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

      Buckingham, Sir H.

      Garland, C. S.

      Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

      Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

      Borden, John William

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Lorimer, H. D.

      Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

      Goff, Sir R. Park

      Lort-Williams, J.

      Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

      Gould, James C.

      Laugher, L.

      Butcher, Sir John George

      Greenwood, William (Stockport)

      Lowe, Sir Francis William

      Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

      Greenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

      Loyd, Arthur T. (Abingdon)

      Butt, Sir Alfred

      Gretton, Colonel John

      Lumley, L. R.

      Button, H. S.

      Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

      Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

      Cadogan, Major Edward

      Gwynne, Rupert S.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

      Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

      Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

      Cassels, J. D.

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

      Cautley, Henry Strother

      Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

      Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Halstead, Major D.

      Manville, Edward

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

      Margesson, H. D. R.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

      Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

      Mercer, Colonel H.

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

      Harrison, F. C.

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

      Chilcott, Sir Warden

      Harvey, Major S. E.

      Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

      Churchman, Sir Arthur

      Hawke, John Anthony

      Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

      Carry, Reginald George

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Molloy, Major L. G. S.

      Clayton, G. C.

      Hennessy, Major J. R. G

      Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

      Cab, Sir Cyril

      Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

      Morden, Col. W. Grant

      Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

      Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

      Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Gilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

      Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

      Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

      Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.

      Murchison, C. K.

      Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

      Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

      Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

      Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

      Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

      Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

      Nelson, Sir Percy Wilson

      Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

      Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

      Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

      Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

      Rothschiid, Lionel de

      Thorpe, Captain John Henry

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Roundel, Colonel R. F.

      Titchfield, Marquess of

      Oman, Sir Charles William C.

      Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

      Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

      O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

      Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

      Tubbs, S. W.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Russell, William (Bolton)

      Turton, Edmund Russborough

      Paget, T. G.

      Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

      Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

      Parker, Owen (Kettering)

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

      Pease, William Edwin

      Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

      Waring, Major Walter

      Penny, Frederick George

      Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

      Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

      Sandon, Lord

      Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Warrington)

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

      Wells, S. R.

      Herring, William George

      Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

      Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

      Peto, Basil E.

      Shepperson, E. W.

      White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

      Philipson, Mabel

      Shipwright, Captain D.

      Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

      Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

      Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

      Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

      Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

      Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

      Winterton, Earl

      Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

      Singleton, J. E.

      Wise, Frederick

      Privett, F. J.

      Skelton, A. N.

      Reimer, Viscount

      Raeburn, Sir William H.

      Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

      Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

      Rainer, W.

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

      Rankin, Captain James Stuart

      Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

      Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

      Yerburgh, R. D. T.

      Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

      Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

      Rees, Sir Beddoe

      Stanley, Lord

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—Commander Rt. Hon. B. M. Eyres-Monsell and Colonel Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

      Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

      Steel, Major S. Strang

      Remer, J. R.

      Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

      Remnant, Sir James

      Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

      Reynolds, W. G. W.

      Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

      NOES.

      Adams, D.

      Foot, Isaac

      Lowth, T.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

      George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

      Lunn, William

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Gilbert, James Daniel

      MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Gosling, Harry

      M'Entee, V. L.

      Ammon, Charles George

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      McLaren, Andrew

      Attlee, C. R.

      Gray, Frank (Oxford)

      Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Greenall, T.

      March, S.

      Barnes, A.

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Cone)

      Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

      Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Middleton, G.

      Batey, Joseph

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Millar, J. D.

      Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

      Groves, T.

      Morel, E. D.

      Berkeley, Captain Reginald

      Grundy, T. W.

      Morris, Harold

      Bonwick, A.

      Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

      Guthrie, Thomas Maule

      Mosley, Oswald

      Briant, Frank

      Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

      Murnin, H.

      Broad, F. A.

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      Murray, John (Leeds, West)

      Buckle, J.

      Harbord, Arthur

      Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

      Burgess, S.

      Hardie, Georges D.

      O'Grady, Captain James

      Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

      Harris, Percy A.

      Oliver, George Harold

      Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

      Hartshorn, Vernon

      Paling, W.

      Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

      Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

      Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

      Cape, Thomas

      Hayday, Arthur

      Parkinson, R. (Grantham)

      Charleton, H. C.

      Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

      Parkinson, S. (Horncastle)

      Clarke, Sir E. C.

      Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Collie, Sir John

      Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

      Potts, John S.

      Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

      Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

      Pringle, W. M. R.

      Collison, Levi

      Herriotts, J.

      Rae, Sir Henry N.

      Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchel

      Hill, A.

      Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Hillary, A. E.

      Riley, Ben

      Darbishire, C. W.

      Hinds, John

      Ritson, J.

      Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

      Hirst, G. H.

      Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

      Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

      Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

      Roberts. Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

      Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

      Davison, J. E. (Smithwick)

      Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

      Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

      Dudgeon, Major C. R.

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Rose, Frank H.

      Duncan, C.

      Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

      Royce, William Stapleton

      Dunnico, H.

      Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

      Saklatvala, S.

      Ede, James Chuter

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Salter, Dr. A.

      Edge, Captain Sir William

      Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

      Sexton, James

      Edmonds, G.

      Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

      Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

      Edwards C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

      Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

      Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

      Lansbury, George

      Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

      England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

      Lawson, John James

      Simpson, J. Hope

      Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

      Leach, W.

      Sitch, Charles H.

      Fairbairn, R. R.

      Lee, F.

      Smith, T. (Pontefract)

      Falconer, J.

      Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

      Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

      Fides, Henry

      Linfield, F. C.

      Spoor, B. G.

      902

      903

      Strauss, Edward Anthony

      Warne, G. H.

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Sturrock, J. Leng

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Sullivan, J.

      Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

      Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

      Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

      Webb. Sidney

      Wintringham, Margaret

      Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

      Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

      Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Weir, L. M.

      Wright, W.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Westwood, J.

      Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

      White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

      Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

      Thornton, M.

      White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

      Tillett, Benjamin

      Whiteley, W.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.

      Tout, W. J.

      Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

      Turner, Ben

      Resolution agreed to.

      AGRICULTURAL CREDITS.
      Question,
      "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolution reported in respect of Agricultural Credits."
      Put, and agreed to.

      WAYS AND MEANS [25TH JULY].
      Resolution reported,
      "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, the sum of£269,381,292 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
      Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Baldwin and Sir William Joynson-Hicks.

      CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL,
      "to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-four, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 209.]
      The remaining orders were read, and postponed.
      It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, upon Thursday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
      Adjourned at Nine Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  EXPORTS (PARCEL POST).
  EXPORTS (PARCEL POST).
  RUBBER MANUFACTURES (GERMAN IMPORTS).
  RUBBER MANUFACTURES (GERMAN IMPORTS).
  COMMERCIAL TREATIES.
  COMMERCIAL TREATIES.
  BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION (INDIGO).
  BRITISH DYESTUFFS CORPORATION (INDIGO).
  SHIPMENTS TO SOUTH AFRICA (FREIGHT).
  SHIPMENTS TO SOUTH AFRICA (FREIGHT).
  OVERSEAS TRADE (SPECIAL REGISTER).
  OVERSEAS TRADE (SPECIAL REGISTER).
  JUTE PIECE GOODS (GERMAN IMPORTS).
  JUTE PIECE GOODS (GERMAN IMPORTS).
  DEUTSCHE BANK (BRITISH STAFF).
  DEUTSCHE BANK (BRITISH STAFF).
POST OFFICE.
  GUIDE.
  GUIDE.
  WIRELESS STATIONS.
  WIRELESS STATIONS.
  IMPERIAL WIRELESS CHAIN.
  IMPERIAL WIRELESS CHAIN.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
  MINISTRY OF LABOUR.
  WOMEN ENTRANTS.
  WOMEN ENTRANTS.
  ROYAL COMMISSION ON WHEAT SUPPLIES.
  ROYAL COMMISSION ON WHEAT SUPPLIES.
  COMMERCIAL SECRETARY, CONSTANTINOPLE.
  COMMERCIAL SECRETARY, CONSTANTINOPLE.
  EARL OF BALFOUR (PATENT STAMPS).
  EARL OF BALFOUR (PATENT STAMPS).
  ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
  ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
  LIMITED COMPANIES (GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS).
  LIMITED COMPANIES (GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS).
  GERMAN STATE RAILWAYS AND POST OFFICE.
  GERMAN STATE RAILWAYS AND POST OFFICE.
AGRICULTURE.
  HARVEST WAGES, NORFOLK.
  HARVEST WAGES, NORFOLK.
  LABOURERS' WAGES.
  LABOURERS' WAGES.
  AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
  AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
  LAND DRAINAGE.
  LAND DRAINAGE.
  IMPORTED POTATOES.
  IMPORTED POTATOES.
  WAGES DISPUTE, NORFOLK (REINSTATEMENT).
  WAGES DISPUTE, NORFOLK (REINSTATEMENT).
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  LAND SETTLEMENT.
  LAND SETTLEMENT.
  MENTAL CASES.
  MENTAL CASES.
  CIVIL SERVICE.
  CIVIL SERVICE.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES.
  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES.
  ORPINGTON HOSPITAL (OCCUPATIONAL TREATMENT).
  ORPINGTON HOSPITAL (OCCUPATIONAL TREATMENT).
  ORTHOPEDIC CLINIC, BURNHAM-ON-CROUCH.
  ORTHOPEDIC CLINIC, BURNHAM-ON-CROUCH.
  NAVAL PENSIONS (WIDOWS AND CHILDREN).
  NAVAL PENSIONS (WIDOWS AND CHILDREN).
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS.
  PRE-WAR PENSIONS.
ROYAL NAVY.
  MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE (OFFICERS).
  MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE (OFFICERS).
  CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMME (ORDERS).
  CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMME (ORDERS).
  PLYMOUTH DOCKYARD (APPRENTICES).
  PLYMOUTH DOCKYARD (APPRENTICES).
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING.
  VOCATIONAL TRAINING.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
  DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES.
  INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.
  INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.
  TRADE DISPUTES (BENEFIT).
  TRADE DISPUTES (BENEFIT).
  ROAD SCHEMES, SOUTH YORKSHIRE.
  ROAD SCHEMES, SOUTH YORKSHIRE.
  POOR LAW RELIEF, ECCLESHALL BIERLOW.
  POOR LAW RELIEF, ECCLESHALL BIERLOW.
  COST OF LIVING.
  COST OF LIVING.
  NEWFOUNDLAND POWER AND PAPER COMPANY, LIMITED.
  NEWFOUNDLAND POWER AND PAPER COMPANY, LIMITED.
TRANSPORT.
  MOTOR TRAFFIC (ACCIDENTS).
  MOTOR TRAFFIC (ACCIDENTS).
  RAILWAY SERVICE, BERWICK AND KELSO.
  RAILWAY SERVICE, BERWICK AND KELSO.
COAL INDUSTRY.
  COKING AND BY-PRODUCT PROFITS.
  COKING AND BY-PRODUCT PROFITS.
  MALTBY PIT (FIRE).
  MALTBY PIT (FIRE).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (ACCOMMODATION).
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (ACCOMMODATION).
  EXPORTS.
  EXPORTS.
IRISH FREE STATE.
  LOAN.
  LOAN.
  MALICIOUS INJURIES (COMPENSATION CLAIMS).
  MALICIOUS INJURIES (COMPENSATION CLAIMS).
  KIDNAPPED OFFICERS, MACROOM.
  KIDNAPPED OFFICERS, MACROOM.
  KILMAINHAM HOSPITAL, DUBLIN.
  KILMAINHAM HOSPITAL, DUBLIN.
  IRAQ.
  IRAQ.
  CHINA.
  CHINA.
  TURKEY.
  TURKEY.
  UNITED STATES PROHIBITION ACT.
  UNITED STATES PROHIBITION ACT.
BRITISH ARMY.
  RIFLE BRIGADE, CHANAK.
  RIFLE BRIGADE, CHANAK.
  MEAT SUPPLIES.
  MEAT SUPPLIES.
  LATE SERGEANT T. S. JACKSON (EMBLEM).
  LATE SERGEANT T. S. JACKSON (EMBLEM).
  CADETS, WOOLWICH ACADEMY (FEES).
  CADETS, WOOLWICH ACADEMY (FEES).
  ACCOUNTANCY (COMMITTEE'S REPORT).
  ACCOUNTANCY (COMMITTEE'S REPORT).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (WAGES).
  WOOLWICH ARSENAL (WAGES).
  CHILD'S VACCINATION, SALFORD.
  CHILD'S VACCINATION, SALFORD.
  HOUSING (METHOD OF VALUATION).
  HOUSING (METHOD OF VALUATION).
  MENTAL INSTITUTIONS (PRIVATE PATIENTS).
  MENTAL INSTITUTIONS (PRIVATE PATIENTS).
  DRIED MILK (REGULATIONS).
  DRIED MILK (REGULATIONS).
  ASSISTANT SANITARY INSPECTOR, FAREHAM.
  ASSISTANT SANITARY INSPECTOR, FAREHAM.
EDUCATION.
  TEACHERS' SALARIES, PERTHSHIRE.
  TEACHERS' SALARIES, PERTHSHIRE.
  JOHN SOUTHLAND'S TRUST, NEW ROMNEY.
  JOHN SOUTHLAND'S TRUST, NEW ROMNEY.
  TRAINING COLLEGES (EXAMINATION RESULTS).
  TRAINING COLLEGES (EXAMINATION RESULTS).
  POLICE PENSIONS.
  POLICE PENSIONS.
  ALIENS.
  ALIENS.
  MAGISTRATES.
  MAGISTRATES.
  SHOPS ACTS (PROSECUTIONS).
  SHOPS ACTS (PROSECUTIONS).
  NATIONAL FLAG (ADVERTISEMENTS).
  NATIONAL FLAG (ADVERTISEMENTS).
  FILM COMPANY (FIRE SCENE, CHISWICK).
  FILM COMPANY (FIRE SCENE, CHISWICK).
  RUHR OCCUPATION (SEIZURES).
  RUHR OCCUPATION (SEIZURES).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (CONSTRUCTION WORK).
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (CONSTRUCTION WORK).
  LLANRWST COUNTY COURT (REGISTRAR).
  LLANRWST COUNTY COURT (REGISTRAR).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.
BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to this Bill, which appears first upon the Paper, I do not propose to move the Third Reading to-day, as I understand that Amendments will be moved, and it would be more in accordance with the usual practice if proper Notice were given. Accordingly, I shall take them to-morrow.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).

SMOKE ABATEMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the introduction of this Bill has been somewhat delayed, but I do not think that this is a matter which need trouble those who are interested in it, because it was always understood that there should be a considerable interval between the Second Reading and the Committee stage. This will be provided by the Recess, so that those who are interested in the Bill will have an opportunity of considering its provisions. Since this Bill, or rather a Bill which greatly resembled it, was introduced last year considerable criticism has been levelled against it by representatives of industry. It was urged that, although everybody was interested in preventing

1415
smoke nuisances, nothing should be done which would tend to prejudice industry in any way at a moment when unemployment is so considerable and when industry requires all the assistance it can obtain. Accordingly, we have omitted certain provisions from the Bill to meet this criticism, and I trust that this omission will prove satisfactory to those who have put forward objections to the original proposals.
In this Bill we extend the provisions of the Public Health Act, 1875, so that all smoke, and not only black smoke, is included in the smoke nuisance. The expression "smoke" will now include soot, gritty particles and ash as well as black smoke. We followed the advice of my noble friend's Committee in imposing larger fines for breaches of the law, but in view of the accumulated amount of these fines, in reference to which representations have been made, we have not adopted the same maximum as appeared in the Bill last year, but have reduced it to a certain extent. If your Lordships will turn to subsection I (e) of Clause 1 you will find that this is a new provision. Section 334 of the Public Health Act specifies certain processes which are to be exempted from the penalties provided in the Act for the emission of black smoke, and to these we have added the processes of reheating, annealing, hardening, forging, converting and carburising iron and other metals, thus extending Section 334. This extension, however, will operate only for a limited time, because, under the proviso, after five years a Provisional Order which, of course, will have to be affirmed by Parliament, may be issued to exclude from the section all or any of the processes therein contained. That is to say, after five years it will be possible to do away with Section 334 altogether, or with any process included therein or which may be added thereto.
I have only one more observation to make on Clause 1. In subsection (3) we have again followed the recommendations of my noble friend's Committee, although we have slightly varied them. According to my noble friend's recommendations, the onus probandi would seem to lie upon the local authority, but in this subsection we place it upon the person in charge, and give him the power of arguing in his defence "that he has used the best practical means for preventing the
1416
nuisance, having regard to the cost and to local conditions and circumstances." These references to cost and circumstances are an addition to the Bill.
Now I come to Clause 2, which is a new clause, introduced in order to meet one of the recommendations of the Committee—one upon which my noble friend laid particular stress, namely, the recommendation to empower the Ministry of Health to fix standards from time to time. I do not really think that the Ministry is the proper authority to fix standards for the measurement of black smoke, and by the clause we give power to the local authorities to fix their own standards. Then, in Clause 3, which is the same as the clause of last year, we take power to extend the list of noxious or offensive gases mentioned in the Act of 1906. The fixation of a standard for alkali noxious vapours of this kind is different from any mere fixation of a general standard for smoke. This refers to another recommendation of my noble friend's Committee, which was that the general obligation should rest upon manufacturers to use the best practical means of preventing the escape of noxious gas, but we think that the better course is to extend the number of noxious gases in Section 27, of the Alkali, etc., Works Regulation Act, 1906, because we think it would be rather difficult to enforce the obligation in the manner proposed by the Committee.
In Clause 4 we deal with new buildings and empower urban authorities to make by-laws requiring the provision in new buildings, other than private dwelling-houses, of such arrangements for heating as are calculated to prevent or reduce the emission of smoke. There is an omission from this clause, because it does not say that the by-laws are to be confirmed by the Ministry of Health. That will have to be put right in Committee. My noble friend objected to our not having adopted his recommendation to transfer the administration of the law wholly to the county councils and county boroughs. The county boroughs have the administration of the law, because the county borough is the sanitary authority. As regards the county councils, it would be really impossible to transfer this authority from the district councils to the county councils. The district councils are the sanitary authority and they have inspectors

1417
and machinery to do the work. If it were transferred to the county councils they would have to create a wholly new set of inspectors and machinery to administer the law, and, furthermore, I think it is very undesirable to chance the law in a piecemeal fashion by making a different law for the prevention of smoke nuisance from the law which applies to the prevention of other nuisances. It is impossible to carry out the Committee's recommendation. As a matter of fact, we do something towards this, because we give power to the county councils, with the sanction of the Ministry, if the local authority fails to carry out the provisions of the Act, to undertake the duties of that local authority, carry them out and charge to it any expense which may be incurred. I beg to move that the Bill be now read 2a.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I do not suppose that any one will dispute that legislation with regard to this matter is not only due but long overdue, and in connection with that point of view I regret that Lord Curzon is not present because he is the only man occupying a post of considerable importance who has ever dealt with this matter. When Lord Curzon went to India he realised that Calcutta, unless steps were taken to prevent it, would become almost as smoky as some of our large industrial towns, and he invited an expert from Sheffield—a very appropriate place from which to get an expert—a Mr. Nicholson, to advise him. Upon the advice of that expert he brought in legislation which has saved Calcutta from the fate which has befallen many of our principal British cities. I cannot help thinking that if Lord Curzon had occupied the position of President of the Local Government Board, or Minister of Health, we should have had legislation of this kind long ago.
It has always been a source of perpetual amazement to me that, considering the many millions which we spend upon what is called social reform, upon housing, upon the purification of water and food, and so on, no steps have been taken by any Government to deal with the purification of the atmosphere since 1875. The result is that, although we rightly pride ourselves upon personal cleanliness, we
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are, upon the whole, the dirtiest country in Europe. I do not wish to dilate upon this because I have spoken upon the matter before, but it is really impossible to exaggerate the discomfort, damage to health and property, and unnecessary expense to which many millions of our people are continually exposed day by day, and from which the great majority of our population suffer, as the result of this state of affairs. It all arises from the fact that the central authority here has never taken any interest in the matter until recently.
I think it must have struck by this time even the most unimaginative person that it cannot be by mere accident that the only revolutionary element in British polities is provided by the industrial districts which are most remarkable for their sordid and dirty surroundings. If we had been brought up in circumstances of this kind, if we had been born in the slums where you never see proper sunlight and, in many instances, literally cannot open your widow on account of the pollution of the atmosphere, except when work is not going on, I suspect our outlook upon life would be rather different from what it is at present. The real reason why nothing has been done with regard to this matter is because you cannot, as a rule, get any Government to initiate legislation, unless they think there are some votes to be secured by it, and the impression has prevailed that there are no votes to be got out of the removal of this smoke pollution. I believe that is an entire delusion. In the course of my duties as Chairman of the Committee, I visited most of the big towns and industrial districts, and I know there is a strong and influential body of intelligent opinion which is only too anxious that legislation of this kind should be passed. I believe that legislation on the lines, or rather improved legislation on the lines, suggested by my noble friend would be greeted with the greatest gratitude and approval by a large section of our countrymen.
As for this Bill, I will admit at once, cheerfully, that it is a considerable improvement upon its predecessor. At the same time, it does not carry out the recommendations of the Committee of which I was Chairman, and I am unable to understand why it has not been possible to adopt those recommendations. Nobody ever found any serious faults with them.

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Such criticism as has been levelled against them has been almost of a frivolous character. The main recommendations were as the noble Earl pointed out. The first, and most important of all, was that the central body, the Ministry of Health, should play a more active part in this question and compel recalcitrant or reluctant authorities to put the law into operation. The second important recommendation was that the administration of the law should be transferred to larger bodies; and the third, and very important recommendation, although my noble friend says his Department are unable to see their way to adopt, it, was that the Ministry of Health should set up a standard for smoke just as they set up standards in connection with noxious gases.
By the way, there is one curious omission from this Bill. I observe that Government establishments are exempt from any restrictions at all. To my mind, that is a ludicrous anomaly. The Government, in distinction from ail other employers, ought to set an example of efficiency and cleanliness. Under this Bill you will be able to prosecute and to fine establishments which do not comply with the regulations; but Government establishments are to be allowed to emit as much smoke as they please. I submit that this is entirely contrary to common sense. In Germany, where this question is dealt with m a much more efficient way than here, Government establishments set an example to all other establishments throughout the country.
The points which I have enumerated can perfectly well be dealt with in Committee, and, if they are dealt with satisfactorily, then this Bill will probably turn out to be quite an efficacious measure. But there is one point upon which I am a good deal concerned. What are the prospects of this Bill? In racing parlance, is it meant, or is it only out for an airing? I am rather afraid that it is out for the latter purpose, because the persons who are interested in this matter were given an assurance so long ago as last December that a Bill was going to be brought in, and here we are at the end of July. It is very easy for a Minister to promise that a Bill will be introduced, but when a Minister gives that promise you naturally assume that he will take some pains in order to pass it. But I rather gather from what fell from Lord
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Salisbury the other day, and, more especially, from what was said by Mr. Baldwin in the House of Commons, that the House of Commons does not propose to take up any Bills unless they have passed through all their stages in this House before the adjournment.
I do not consider this by any means a fair fulfilment of the pledge which was made to me and to other people, and I hope that my noble friend will give me an assurance that a genuine effort will be made to pass this Bill into law this year. Whether that be so or not, I do congratulate myself and the persons who are interested in this question upon the fact that, at all events, a Government is at last committed to dealing with it, and, even if we do not get the Bill through this year, the Government will be held to their project, and I am convinced that the more this question is discussed, especially in Parliament, the greater chance there will be of what is little less than a national reproach being eventually removed.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOBE: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is very desirable to see legislation passed upon this subject. He mentioned that it was a great many years since effect was given to legislation on this matter. He referred to public legislation: he is aware, of course, that there, have been experiments in certain municipalities under Private Bills, the result of which, I have no doubt, was before him when he sat upon the Committee of Inquiry, of which he was Chairman. But, in general, I desire to support him, and to say that an Act like this should be passed.
I want, however, to draw the attention of your Lordships not so much to what is in the Bill—which I find great difficulty in understanding—but to the form of it. Your Lordships have had many debates on the subject of legislation by reference, and never has the crime of legislation by reference been committed as it is committed in this Bill. I have a copy here in which the references to other Acts of Parliament are marked in red ink, and they cover the greater part of the Bill. In page 1, which contains twenty-five lines, there are six references to other Acts of Parliament; in page 2 there are ten such references; in page 3 there are eight references to other Acts of

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Parliament or portions of Acts; and in the last page the Parliamentary draftsman has had a miserable failure, for he has only been able to put in five references, making a total of twenty-nine; but he makes up for his failure on the last page by referring in Clause 2 to all by-laws that have ever been passed by local authorities.
It is nonsense to expect the public to understand a measure that is in this form. So far as I can make out, one-quarter of this Bill, in volume, is direct legislation, and the rest is reference to other Acts of Parliament, in which one word is altered into another, and so on. I am second to none in my anxiety to see smoke abatement successful, but you really cannot expect the public to co-operate with you if you put legislation of this kind before them, and I do make, an appeal to my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill, in the hope that the Bill, when it is passed, as I hope it will be, will be found in a form which somebody run understand without giving a week's work to its elucidation.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: My Lords, although I am in favour of the objects of this Bill, I agree with my noble friend who has just spoken. Unless such a Bill is very simple it will not be much use. And no one will do anything to stop these practices if there is any initial cost. I have risen, however, to ask my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland whether he will consider the matter of extending this Bill, or some Bill in a more perfect form, to Scotland. It seems to me that it is absurd for a Bill of this kind to be limited to England: if it is suitable for England it is equally suitable for Scotland.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR): My Lords, I entirely concur in the view that the noble Duke has expressed. It would be quite inexpedient, in regard to a measure affecting industry as well as public health and cleanliness, that there should be one law on one side of the border, and another on the other. For some time I have been in communication with the local authorities in Scotland on the matter, and I hope to introduce a separate Bill for Scotland this autumn.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am very glad that my noble friend Lord Newton was able to say that he thinks
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this Bill is a considerable improvement on its predecessor. He enumerated certain defects, but said that he would endeavour to cure them by Amendments in Committee. So I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with any observations upon them. As regards the question of the business during the autumn sittings, I was not aware of that which he referred to as having been said in another place. All I can say is that, so far as I am concerned, I will do my best to push the Bill forward as soon as we reassemble. What will happen eventually in another place, of course, none of us can prophesy.
My noble friend on the Woolsack has spoken of legislation by reference. I must say I have not counted, with the meticulous accuracy that he has, the number of references to other Acts of Parliament contained in this measure, but I admit that he produced a very formidable total. I do not know how many there were in last year's Bill, but I should think that there were possibly as many, or very nearly as many, and. I do not think that attention was called to this defect at that time. Had it been, possibly we might have been able to produce a Bill which would have been more in accord with my noble friend's views. I am not a draftsman, and I am afraid I cannot express an opinion, but we shall, of course, be very glad if the House will improve the Bill. In the Rent Restrictions Bill the other day we wore able to meet the views of noble Lords who had expressed their disapproval of the practice of legislation by reference. Possibly we may be able to do something of the same kind in reference to this Bill; at any rate, we will look into it and see what can be done.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EAST INDIA LOANS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, I came before your Lordships last year to move a Bill on similar lines to this one. The purpose of this Bill is to enable the Secretary of State in Council to raise

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sums not exceeding £15,000,000 for general purposes for the Government of India and sums up to £50,000,000 for capital expenditure on railways and irrigation works. The margin of unexpended borrowing powers is becoming narrow. As regards the general purposes it is reduced to £2,730,000 odd, and as regards productive purposes to about £14,000,000.
Let me say one word on either head. The increase in respect of general purposes is sought for two objects. One is to provide a reserve against emergency, and the other is to convert or replace some of the floating or short term Debt of the Government of India on favourable terms when opportunity presents itself. The increase in borrowing powers for productive purposes is mainly, of course, for railway improvements, and in the next two years following it is expected that about £20,000,000 a year will be spent upon that purpose.
I think it might be of some interest to your Lordships if I gave one figure to show what is being done in the way of improving the railways. Since the introduction of the Bill last year the work of improving the railways has been carried on very vigorously, and during the current year it is hoped to devote no lees than twelve crores of rupees to the provision of rolling stock, seven crores to the rebuilding of station yards and other works of that kind, and three and a half crores to doubling and quadrupling lines and strengthening bridges. The work of electrification has begun on the great Indian Peninsula Railway and its suburban branches, and in connection with the Bombay section of the Bombay, Baroda and Central Indian Railway. Much will be done in that way to relieve the congestion in Bombay and to enable the city workers to live further out. Further than that, it will, of course, produce additional revenue for the railways and it is satisfactory to note, as bearing on the future productivity of the railways, that on the whole the working expenses in 1922 have been reduced and we expect a further decline this year; so that I hope the position of the railways in time to come will not be unsatisfactory. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

EDUCATION (INSTITUTION CHILDREN) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, this is a very small measure of reform which I think will be found to be generally acceptable. It has really nothing to do with education quâ education. Its object is merely to distribute its cost more fairly. There are local authorities who have in their area large workhouses or charitable institutions and who have complained, not unnaturally, that the ratepayers of their districts should be called upon to meet the cost of the education of Poor Law and charitable children because the institutions which house those children happen to be situated within their borders. Until a short time ago, I think it was in 1918, the practice when children were sent outside the area of the union for education was for the board of guardians to pay the cost to the local education authority. But in 1918 there was a decision of the Supreme Court which laid it down that boards of guardians had the right to have their children educated without fees. After that, the cost fell upon the ratepayers of the district in which the school lay.
We are now trying to remedy this by placing the charge upon the local education authority and not the board of guardians of the area in which the child's place of settlement is situated. That is, as regards Poor Law children. The place of settlement is not difficult to ascertain because every Poor Law child has to have one. A place of settlement has to be fixed for other purposes than those contained in this Bill, and we have adopted that as the criterion of the authority who shall be responsible for the payment to the local education authority. I do not mean to say that it is not sometimes a difficult matter to settle what a child's place of settlement is; but that has to be done in any case, and this seems to be the most convenient means to adopt.
When we come to charitably educated children we are faced with considerable difficulty. It is really very difficult to ascertain to what area these children actually belong. I do not know for the moment that they belong to any area; many of them, for example, are foundlings, and many of them are the

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children of gipsies, tinkers and nomads, and it is very difficult, if not almost impossible, to ascertain what really is their place of origin. So we have to do the best we can, and we offer three alternatives. The first and most convenient, if it is possible, is, I think, to take the last place of continuous residence for six months in England and Wales. If that cannot be ascertained, then we take the birth place, and if we can get neither at the place of birth or any place of continuous residence for six months, then we leave the question to the Board of Education for final decision. I cannot say how they will decide, because it seems to me that they will have very little ground to go upon, but I do not sec that any other course could be adopted.
With reference to charitable institutions, we do not want to include very small homes into which, perhaps, one or two children are taken; so we have adopted a definition that a charitable institution shall be a place where children are maintained from charitable motives and which contains at least twelve children between the ages of five and fourteen. That is to say, it must be an institution of respectable size. We do not oblige the education authorities to claim, but if they do claim the authority on whom the claim is made must pay; that is to say, if a claim is made within two years of the attendance for which it is made. The Bill is retrospective. It operates, from the beginning of the financial year.
Now I come to Clause 2 of the Bill which deals with the children who are included in Part V of the Education Act. Part V of that Act is devoted to dealing with blind, deaf, defective, and epileptic children. We do not propose that the authorities should be made responsible for providing boarding accommodation in special schools for these defective children, unless, of course, a child belongs to their own area. So we draw a distinction between day attendance and schools in which the children board. Obviously, the reason is that it is very expensive to provide boarding accommodation and it is quite a different thing to provide day school accommodation. Of course, I should say that an arrangement could be made between the authority whence a child comes and the local education authority at whose charge the child is maintained. But if such arrangement is
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not made, then no obligation is imposed upon the local education authority to receive these extraneous children as boarders.
The Bill, as your Lordships will observe, is entirely financial in character. It has been agreed to on all sides, and, if I may say so, it is a very technical matter. If your Lordships are content to accept it, it will remove what has been a source of grievance and friction in many cases. The local authorities who have complained had some reason to think it imposed an unjust burden upon the ratepayers, and I trust your Lordships will give a Second Reading to the Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 3a; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (CONSOLIDATION) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, this is a Bill to consolidate the existing enactments relating to national health insurance. The original Act was passed in toil. There have been a great many Acts since then, and it is necessary to do something to consolidate all that legislation. I think the present Bill presents the statutory position in a convenient form, and I have no doubt it will be heartily welcomed by the approved societies. I should add that as soon as it is passed into law we shall undertake the duty of consolidating the many statutory Regulations which govern national health insurance. The other day, on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Housing Bill, I mentioned to your Lordships that it was the intention of the Ministry of Health to consolidate legislation in regard to housing. I may supplement that by saying that it is our intention to consolidate all the legislation of this kind—housing and national health. National health is the first instalment, and I hope that it may be followed by others of the same nature dealing with legislation for which the Ministry of Health is responsible. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I beg to move that the Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
Moved, That the Bill be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD MUIR MACKENZIE: My Lords, I have looked through this Bill as a Consolidation Bill, and, as the noble Earl has said, it is one that would go naturally to the Consolidation Bill Committee. The only thing I desire to say is that I hardly suppose the noble Earl expects that the Committee will take the Bill before the Recess.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I am sure I should not be so unreasonable.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill committed to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills accordingly.

RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST RESTRICTIONS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 6:
Notice of increase of rent.
6.—(1) The comity court shall have power to amend a notice of intention to increase rent, whether served before or after the passing of this Act, by correcting any errors and supplying any omissions therein, which, if not corrected or supplied, would render the notice invalid, on such terms and conditions us respects arrears of rent or otherwise as appear to the court to he just and reasonable, and if the court so directs, the notice as so amended shall have effect and be deemed to have had effect as a valid notice.
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER had an Amendment on the Paper to move, at the beginning of the clause, after "Court," to leave out: "shall have power to amend a notice of intention to increase rent, whether served before or after the passing of this Act," and insert "if satisfied that any error or omission in a notice of intention to increase rent, whether served before or after the passing of this Act, is due to a bonâ fide mistake on the part of the landlord, shall have power to amend such notice."
EARL BEAUCHAMP: On behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Buck-master, I beg to move the Amendment that stands in his name.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 41, leave out from ("court") to ("by") in line 43 and insert ("if satisfied that any error or omission in a notice of intention to increase rent, whether served before or after the passing of this Act, is due to a bona fide mistake on the part of the landlord, shall have power to amend such notice").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I have great pleasure in accepting my noble friend s Amendment. I am glad that we have been able to rive effect to some of the proposals put forward by the noble and learned Lord on Committee stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18:
Certificates of sanitary authorities and definition of repairs.
(2) On any application to a county agricultural committee for a certificate for the purpose of paragraph (ii) of subsection (1) of Section five of the principal Act, a fee shall be payable by the applicant to the county agricultural committee of such amount as the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries shall by regulation determine.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW had an Amendment on the Paper to add to subsection 2 "and if the Committee as a result of such application issues a certificate to a landlord, the certificate shall be sufficient evidence that the dwelling-house is required by the landlord for the purpose therein mentioned unless the contrary is proved."
The noble Earl said: Your Lordships will remember that on the occasion of the Committee stage I informed my noble friend Lord Dynevor that we were not able to accept the whole of his Amendment, but that I trusted that on Report stage, I should be, able to lay before your Lordships a proposal which, to a certain extent, might meet his views and those whom he represents. I understand, however, that since this Amendment was drafted, and since I put it on the Paper, attention has been drawn to the fact that already powers exist, owing to a decision of the High Court, which go further than it is proposed to go in this Amendment, and which to a certain extent meet the

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views of my noble friend and those whom he represents. Therefore my noble friend will perhaps prefer that I should not move the Amendment. Of course, if ho does desire it, I shall be glad to proceed with the Amendment.
LORD DYNEVOR: As my noble friend has just pointed out, on the Committee stage of this Bill I moved an Amendment which my noble friend was unable to see his way to accept. But my Amendment went a great deal further than the Amendment which the noble Earl has put on the Paper. I thank him for trying to meet me, but I am afraid his Amendment would not secure what I had in mind, which was to simplify the procedure and to bind the courts to accept the agricultural committee's certificate. I would much rather have, the Bill as it stands, and, it the noble Earl will be kind enough, I would prefer that he did not move his Amendment.
THE LORD SPEAKER: The Amendment is not moved.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Road 3a (according to Order), and passed.

KENYA COLONY.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now able to announce the decision which His Majesty's Government have arrived at in connection with the Colony of Kenya?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLON IES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am very glad that my noble friend opposite has given me the chance of making a short statement this afternoon. I am confident your Lordships would not wish me to go in detail through the long history of this melancholy and unhappy controversy, nor would your Lordships, I think, wish me to refer at any great length to the proposals which have been placed before the country by the Government. It would be possible, of course, to analyse them fully, and I shall be only too glad, if I can, to answer any questions which may arise during the debate, but I prefer to do so at the end of the discussion rather than make a long statement at the outset.
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There are two or three guiding principles to which I think your Lordships' attention ought to be directed. In the first place, the issues which were raised in this controversy are not of a local character. No doubt, in connection with the various races domiciled in Kenya, there are many questions of a local character, but if the controversy had been con lined to the purely local questions I believe that those problems would have been solved long ago, and without much difficulty. Many of your Lordships who have held high and distinguished offices, not only in India but in many other portions of the Empire, will appreciate that this is a question which extends far out side the limits of any one Colony, and has considerable imperial connection and interest. I hope there is no occasion to assure your Lordships that we as a Government have given careful and prolonged consideration to the various aspects of this complicated problem. I trust your Lordships will appreciate the fact that the decisions which have now been arrived at are not those of a Department or an Office, but are the decisions of the Government as a whole.
I wish also to assure your Lordships that we do not regard the solution which we have ventured to place before your Lordships as a compromise. We did not seek to solve this question by balancing one claim against the other, and by giving concession on one point as a set off against another point, but we have steadily maintained in view one guiding principle which I hope asserts itself throughout the whole of the Report, and that is the British trusteeship of the Africans. We are there, and it is our responsibility—a responsibility which can be brought home to whatever Government may be in office through the House of Commons, or through your Lordships' House. It is to this broad and, as I believe, unassailable principle that the several points at, issue have to be related.
I am afraid the decisions which have been arrived at by the Government cannot give satisfaction to all interests concerned. Your Lordships are fully aware how strong the feeling has been on many of these questions. Conflicting claims have been pressed with considerable vehemence and I can only trust that the solution which we put forward, if accepted, will mean the opening of a brighter and happier era for the Colony.

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It is a matter of genuine regret that we have not been able to meet the wishes of the Government of India on several material points. Their views have been brought to our attention by deputations and also by the Secretary of State for India. We regret that we are unable to meet all their views and wishes, but we trust that in the solution we have propounded some of their fears and apprehensions will be relieved.
There is one further point to which I ought to take this opportunity of referring. Earlier in the year it became very evident that a considerable number of misunderstandings had arisen and that the only satisfactory method of dealing with them was to ask for the personal co-operation of many of the parties concerned. Accordingly I asked the Governor, Sir Robert Coryndon, to come home, and at the same time I asked the white settlers and the Indians domiciled in Kenya to send over their respective deputations. I received very valuable assistance from Sir Robert Coryndon, his knowledge and experience being of material assistance to the Government in arriving at their conclusions, I also wish to express my appreciation of the patience and moderation displayed by both deputations from Kenya. In that connection may I also express my gratitude to the deputation which came from India, and which I received on the invitation of my noble friend the Secretary of State for India? I am afraid we have delayed the return of these gentlemen to their homes for a very long period, but on a subject of such vast and far-reaching importance I felt that we had to explore every avenue before arriving at our final decision. I trust and believe that with good will and a spirit of co-operation the decisions taken will bring to all the communities domiciled in Kenya an opportunity of working together in the development of peace, order and prosperity in that Colony.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, your Lordships have listened with the deepest interest to the statement made by the noble Duke on behalf of the Government. We know now, what indeed is apparent in the nature of the case—this is a matter which is not really of a limited or local character—that this is not a Departmental
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decision at all but the decision of His Majesty's Government after taking into its purview the needs of the Empire at large, and trying to balance conflicting difficulties and overlappings which take place. I do not think any student of our contemporary politics can fail to marvel at the scale and variety of the duties which now devolve on the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Problems which arise in Baghdad, in Dublin, in Jerusalem and in Nairobi—and that is only a scrap of the list which can be quoted—have to be submitted to the noble Duke and his colleagues at the Colonial Office. I doubt whether any more difficult or thorny problem has arisen for a long time than the one which is dealt with in the White Paper now in your Lordships' hands. The fact that it has been dealt with so carefully, with an historic résumé and an endeavour to put the whole facts before us from the Imperial standpoint, is a matter for which we should be profoundly grateful. It affects the inhabitants of three continents, and, indirectly, many people outside those three continents.
As one who has studied this question a little I should like to congratulate His Majesty's Government, and the noble Duke in particular, upon the pronouncement which is now in our hands. It was quite impossible in a matter of this kind to arrive at any solution without, of necessity, going against opinions strong, reasoned and fairly arguable. But I think the decision which has been reached does, on the whole, steer with fairness and skill among the shoals and difficulties which surround the overlapping problems of the development of British settlement in East Africa, the susceptibility of Indians, and, above all, the care for the African natives to whom the matter is one of primary concern. I rejoice in recognising the way in which practical expression is here given to what is laid down in the famous Article of the Covenant of the League of Nations which deals with the problem of mandatory work in the world on the part of nations to whom these Mandates are committed.
The Covenant of the League of Nations states, in regard to races which are not yet fully developed, that there should be applied—
"The principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred

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trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant."
They are embodied in the Covenant, but we have not yet seen, we have had no opportunity of seeing, it exhibited in practical operation in different parts of the world. We have hero a case where that duty had to be taken in hand, and I rejoice that not merely has His Majesty's Government considered the needs of the native races, the African people, but that they have gone out of their way to say it, and reiterate it, in the document itself, so that it shall remain on record that what is now being attempted is something which primarily affects the people to whom the land belongs; that other people who come into it, from whatever part of the world, are, after all, immigrants, and that the real responsibility which rests upon the Government is to see that nothing shall be done that does not tend to the well-being of the African people themselves.
Nothing could be better than the following statement in the White Paper which is in your Lordships' hands:—
"Primarily, Kenya is an African territory, and His Majesty's Government think it necessary definitely to record their considered opinion that the interests of the African natives must be paramount, and that if, and when, those interests and the interests of the immigrant races should conflict, the former should prevail. Obviously the interests of the other communities, European, Indian or Arab, must severally be safeguarded.…In the administration of Kenya His Majesty's Government regard themselves as exercising a trust on behalf of the African population, and they are unable to delegate or share this trust, the object of which may be defined as the protection and advancement of the native races."
I consider it to be of the highest advantage that we should have had that statement, in words which His Majesty's Government could not have bettered, in dealing with a problem of this kind.
To give effect to the principle there laid down is by no means an easy matter. It is well known to all who have studied the literature of the subject that those who have stood out as spokesmen for the British interests, if we may so call them—though I would rather describe them as the interests of the British settlers who have done so much for the development of East Africa—have again and again stated that the object which they have
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really cared about most is the development of the African people. I hope that is so. I am not quite sure that, if we take the exact record of that which has passed in East Africa, this would be apparent to all of us unless they had told us so in such emphatic terms. We know what has been done with regard to native labour, and the various laws which relate to it may possibly be interpreted by a good many people as having a different bearing from that which they describe to have been their aim—the well being and development of the African races—and when we look at the comparative amount of money expended on the education of these people, and in other matters, we are again a little surprised to find that those spokesmen claim that to be representatives of the well-being, progress and development of the native races is their primary consideration. But if it be so, they must be very pleased with this statement. They must feel that His Majesty's Government have done that which they themselves told us was their principal object, and that the statement is of a kind which they ought to welcome as giving effect to those wishes on their part.
As the noble Duke has already said, it is obvious that Indian opinion, which has expressed itself very forcibly on this subject, cannot be entirely satisfied with the solution which has been reached, and yet I cannot help believing that when those highly cultured and thoughtful representatives of India who have spoken on this matter look at the subject, as a whole, with this full statement which the White Paper provides in their hands, they will feel that the settlement is, after all, upon the whole not an unreasonable one in the present circumstances. I do not think they can reasonably regard themselves as aggrieved with regard to the immigration proposals which it contains, with regard to the segregation clauses, or even with regard to the question of the reservation of the highlands in certain areas which is put in such a form and leaves such an element of liberty as I think ought to satisfy their reasonable desires.
The difficulty which will arise, as I need not tell your Lordships, is with regard to the franchise and the representation which is allowed to immigrants from India. In that respect, of course, the nervous susceptibilities

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of the Indians have been aroused and awakened to a remarkable extent. They have declared that this is to be taken as a test case respecting the genuineness of British declarations of our desire that citizenship of the Empire should be within the reach of our Indian fellow-subjects in its fullest development. But while they have, naturally enough, expressed themselves keenly upon that point I have found, in such intercourse as I have been allowed with representatives of India, that they are not unaware of the fact that, however far-reaching their influence, however deep their knowledge, however keen their patriotism, they have not had the experience as generations have passed either in the task of government, by representation or otherwise, or even in the exercise of the franchise under a representative system which enables them readily to adapt themselves in such numbers as have immigrated to Hast Africa to such conditions as are now in prospect in that Colony. I cannot help believing that if it be necessary to retain a representative character, even indirectly, in the government of the country, the solution reached is one in which the Indian may acquiesce without loss of self-respect, even if we do not find them enthusiastically supporting it.
The position has been one of extraordinary difficulty, and the problem of the communal franchise appears equally difficult when one looks into it. My personal desire would have been to see the Government itself undertaking entire responsibility, and the representative character of our institutions being postponed for a time. That has not been felt to be possible to the extent that some of us would have desired, but in a large degree the Government has made it clear that the notion of a representative character being given to the Government of the Colony as a whole must be postponed. That being so, the Indian difficulty is considerably reduced in scale. I believe that substantial justice has been shown in that which has here been done, that the plan is a workable one—a result which I had hardly hoped to see until I read the Paper in its entirety—and that the settlement (for I decline to call it a compromise) of these difficulties among the rival schemes and the rival rights, as they undoubtedly are, which have been
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put forward, is one upon which we may congratulate the Government.
Everything must turn, however, upon the manner in which this scheme is going to be worked in practice. It is one thing to have on paper a scheme which seems fair, which meets various difficulties in a logical way and in a manner which cannot be fairly impugned, but it is another thing to see it carried out in practice. I have great confidence in the administrators to whom the scheme is now going to be entrusted, and I believe that with the knowledge that watchful eyes are upon the working out of this plan, both from England and from India, it will be worked fairly, as I believe it is capable of being worked. It cannot, of course, be denied, and it would be an affectation not to remember, that those who have educational, social and financial advantages in a much greater measure than many of their Indian fellow-subjects have an opportunity, if they desire to use it, of bringing to bear pressure such as is impossible to others upon governmental authority, but this will be reduced to a minimum if governmental authority will keep a watchful eye upon this matter. I, for one, am perfectly prepared to believe that the Government are taking this question up fairly and have put it into the hands of wise and just administrators. I look forward very hopefully to the issue of an extremely difficult and tangled problem.
LORD HARDINGE OF PENSHURST: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships, like myself, have listened with the greatest interest to the words of the most rev. Primate, and we all realise that those who are acquainted with this very difficult controversy must appreciate at their full value the efforts successfully made by the Government and particularly by the noble Duke, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to arrive at a just and equitable solution. It was inevitable that a settlement could only be arrived at by concessions on both sides, and although there has been a certain amount of breezy talk by protagonists on either side, it is to be sincerely hoped that both will now readily accept the decision of the Government and give a fair trial to their policy.
As the most rev. Primate has already stated, the one great advantage that may be regarded as the outcome of this controversy

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is that the fact has now been made clear that the future of Kenya is not for the white or the Indian settler but for the African native, and that the administration of Kenya is a trust and obligation for His Majesty's Government to develop Kenya in the interests of the African native. At the same time we must not forget that it is incumbent upon our administration in Kenya to deal fairly with our Indian fellow-subjects who may be established there, remembering that in 1921 the Imperial Conference declared itself in favour of the equal citizenship of Indians, and that our prestige and domination in India are not based upon force but upon British justice. The Indians are one of the few races that I have met with who understand gratitude—a very noble and unusual characteristic—and I know from experience that we have only to play fairly and squarely by them to reap our reward.
There are two points in the settlement upon which I would like to say a few words. The Government have decided to give Indians in Kenya a communal franchise instead of a general electoral roll. I fully recognise that this will be disappointing to many moderate Indians, but I do not honestly see how they can reasonably claim, in a British Protectorate under the direct administration of the Colonial Office, a system of franchise which they do not enjoy in their own country. On the other hand, their representation in the Legislative Council may be regarded as not only some compensation but a legitimate concession to the importance of their interests.
There is still the question of the highlands of Kenya. Lord Elgin, in 1908, for reasons of administration, announced various restrictions of Crown grants in the highlands to British settlers, but at the same time declared that there should be no statutory restrictions of a racial character imposed upon any community. Obviously this would apply to the transfer of land. However, in 1915, under Martial Law, the transfer of land to Indians in the highlands was prohibited by Statute, but this prohibition does not apply to aliens. Is it right or just that in a British Protectorate our own fellow-subjects should be denied a right which aliens are permitted to exercise? It seems to me all wrong, and that Indians have a legitimate grievance when aliens are
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granted privileges that are denied to our own Indian fellow subjects. I do not criticise the privileged position of British subjects in the, highlands of Kenya, for I know from my own experience in tropical climates that it is incumbent to provide conditions for Europeans by which their energy and health will not be impaired, but in my opinion the transfer of land should rest entirely under the control of the Administration of the Colony, and that any statutory objection to the acquisition of land in the highlands by Indians should be at once, removed from the Statute Book. There are, I imagine, very few Indians in Kenya who are agriculturists and anxious to obtain land in the highlands, and it seems to me that this is probably more a question of sentiment than one of practical utility.
VISCOUNT CHELMSFORD: My Lords, I wish to trespass on your time for a few moments because this matter came up during my Viceroyalty in India, and the Despatch which was sent by the Government of India at that stage really furnishes the Government of India's ease on this very difficult question. The first point that I wish to make this evening is that this is a very striking illustration of how a mailer, which in its initial stages might have been dealt with departmentally with the minimum of friction, has, from want of Haison between Government Departments, become a matter of Imperial magnitude.
The Ordinance of 1919 by the Colonial Office was never communicated to the Government of India, and they did not know of it until they heard from the Kenya Indians themselves that such an Ordinance had been published. In our Despatch we bring out clearly that this Ordinance was passed without consideration of our views and, indeed, without our knowledge. I entertain the belief, quite seriously, that if we had been consulted we might have introduced such modification in the original Ordinance as might have prevented a good deal of the friction which has arisen. For instance, take the question of segregation. We might have pointed out with great force that Indians did not want to live in the same quarters as Englishmen, but that if you are going to tell them that they are not to live there, like Englishmen, they would resent it strongly and immediately ask to be allowed to do so.

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There are, various other points upon which, I believe, we could have obtained modification from the Colonial Office.
Let me make it clear at the outset that India has always recognised the position of the African native in his own country, and in our Despatch, written long before the question of the African native became prominent, we said that we fully recognised the necessity of maintaining the official majority, in order to safeguard the interests of the natives. We put that in the Despatch, and while the main object of the Despatch was naturally taken up with the position of the Indians, we recognised that the African natives in their own country had to be considered first. What we did claim on behalf of India was that the views of Indians should be adequately considered, and is that really an unreasonable claim? It is an indisputable fact that if you were to debar at the present moment every Indian from Kenya, the life of the community would come to a stand-still in that Colony. They are performing indispensable services. I fancy the railways, for instance, for the main part, are run by Indian guards, and Indian clerks and engine drivers. Many of the small services of trade are performed by Indians. This is because Europeans are too expensive at the present moment, and the natives of Africa have not yet been trained.
In the second place, Indians pay a considerable portion of the taxes which are raised in Kenya. I will only take, as an instance, the municipal taxes in Nairobi, where I see that the Indians, who are not half the population, pay almost half of the municipal taxes. I may be told that all this is common ground. But is it really so? This question has been so overlaid with prejudice, and feelings have run so high, that really the elements of the case have very largely been lost sight of, and preposterous views have been put forward by the extremists on either side. And I think the general public has been, in fact, puzzled as to what they ought to believe.
Let me very briefly touch on the proposals of His Majesty's Government. Segregation, I am glad to say, has been absolutely abandoned. That was the position we took up in our Despatch, and if we had been able to modify the original
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Ordinance in that direction it would have largely diminished the protest which was made in India on the subject. Turning from that to immigration, I welcome with the most rev. Primate the initial sentences of the Memorandum of His Majesty's Government on that point. I think nothing could have been more admirable. But I do sincerely trust that the proposals which are going to be made on this subject of immigration will be very carefully watched by His Majesty's Government, because I am afraid that there may be a suspicion in India that the very admirable sentiments expressed in the early part of that portion of the Memorandum dealing with this subject may be whittled away by administrative action. In such case the last state would be worse than the first, and, as a country, we should incur a charge of breach of faith.
For my own part, I regard the apprehensions that have been expressed as to a great flood of immigrants going from India into Kenya as really a bugbear. I happen to have the figures of the last five years, and I find that while the immigration into Mombassa was some 17,000, the emigration from Mombassa to Bombay was some 19,000. So, as a matter of fact, in five years, 2,000 more Indians went out of Kenya than into it. And really Indians are not going to Kenya because they are going to get the franchise there. That is not the thing that will put something in their insides. They go to Kenya in response to an economic demand, and the question of economic demand will rest largely with Kenya itself. If Kenya trains its African natives to do the work, then there will be no demand for Indians. Indians go to Kenya because Kenya wants them, and because Kenya cannot get on without them. If this matter were left alone I am confident that it would solve itself through the stern logic of facts.
Now let me proceed to touch very briefly on the subject of the highlands. My noble friend Lord Hardinge has preceded me with this, and has made the few points that I wished to make. This question also, if it had been left alone, would have solved itself by the stern logic of facts, because Indians do not care to live at great heights. I am confident that if they had not been told that they were

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not to live in the highlands they never would have wanted to live there. Consequently, there would have been no need of anything savouring of racial discrimination. For myself, I fully recognise the pledges which have been given by His Majesty's Government at various times to the settlers on this matter, and the settlers have believed that they have received full consideration, and I have urged upon my Indian friends that they ought to appreciate the difficulties of His Majesty's Government with regard to this matter.
Another point, to which my noble friend Lord Hardinge alluded, I wish again to impress upon the noble Duke. I do think that the Indians have a just cause of complaint when they see aliens, such as Greeks and Italians, preferred to them, who are British subjects, in the matter of the highlands. That has, time and again, been brought before me as a substantial grievance, and when we are dealing very largely with a matter of racial discrimination I think we ought to be careful in a little thing like that, which shows that it is because they are coloured people and because they are Indians that they are not allowed in the highlands, though they see aliens allowed to go in.
Let me touch very briefly on the question of the franchise. I have never been able—apart, of course, from the question of racial prejudice—to see the objection to a common electoral roll. People talk about Indians dominating the electorate and dominating the Council. Do let us look at the facts of the case. It has been agreed that all the Europeans who have manhood suffrage at the present moment will retain their present franchise, and that will give them a figure of something like 7,000 votes. It is more or less agreed that the total number of Indians who might get the franchise under a common electoral roll would be ten per cent. of the total number, which would be 2,000; and, as regards future qualifications, if there was a common electoral roll a high standard of possession of property or a high standard of education would be required. If those future qualifications were introduced the vast majority of Europeans who came into Kenya, probably ninety-five per cent. would at once get the franchise. On the other hand, probably only five per cent. of the Indians would do so. It would tell directly against the
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Indians. In that way it is perfectly obvious that the Europeans would retain a considerable and a decisive majority under the system of a common electoral roll.
Then take the question of the Council. According to the figures that appear in the White Paper, there are to be eleven non-official Europeans and five Indians. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that you took those sixteen as the only non-official members, you then must have seventeen official members at least, who are to maintain the supremacy of the Government. In a Council of thirty-three, then, supposing the Indians were to get five seats under a common franchise, you would have five Indians, and are they going to dominate a Council of thirty-three? It seems to me that this argument will not bear the light of day. But, of course, the difficulty of the situation is that it is not a question of facts; it is a question of racial prejudice.
I have touched on the salient features of the Government Memorandum, and I believe that, in view of the difficulties, the prejudice, the heat, and the bad blood that have been engendered by this long controversy, it represents a very creditable attempt at a solution of this very difficult problem. I am sure anybody who has taken an interest in the subject must feel a deep debt of gratitude to the noble Duke for the obvious fairness with which he has endeavoured to solve it. But it must not be imagined, I fear, that this is going to be received gratefully in India. It still bears, as the Indians will say, the mark of racial discrimination, and I trust that your Lordships will remember that this feeling is not confined to political extremists. Last year I happened to be at Geneva as the senior representative of India at the League of Nations, and I remember that an Indian colleague of great distinction and acknowledged loyalty wanted to bring the matter of Kenya before the League. I communicated with my noble friend the Secretary of State, and I was assured by him that a solution of this matter had almost been arrived at; I refer, of course, to what is known as the Wood-Winterton Agreement, an Agreement which, as far as India is concerned, certainly would have been accepted with open arms.
I quote this case only because I want to show that it is a matter that goes very

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deep in Indian thought on this subject, and that from the Princes at the top down through all the stages there is this feeling that they do not wish for racial discrimination. I recognise, for my part, the very great advance that has been made by this decision of His Majesty's Government on the Ordinance of 1919, which is really the cause of all this trouble. I only wish it had been possible to eliminate from this decision just those portions which seem to savour of racial discrimination.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I approach this subject from an angle different from that of my two noble friends, the last two Viceroys. I approach it mainly from the African point of view, though I shall have something to say before I sit down upon one aspect of the Indian point of view. I think that my noble friend the Secretary of State and His Majesty's Government have taken up very strong ground. They have altogether refused to allow this question to be considered as a sort of tug-of-war between Europeans and Indians. They have put it on its true basis as a question affecting Kenya and the people who inhabit that Colony, and they have refused to attempt to patch up the dispute by means of a compromise. They have definitely arrived at a solution which they believe to be wise and fair.
I most heartily congratulate my noble friend on this piece of work, first and mainly because of the stand that he has taken against the premature grant of responsible government. It is quite impossible for 10,000 Englishmen, or 20,000 Indians, or 10,000 Englishmen with 20,000 Indians to govern wisely and fairly an African population of two and a half millions. It is a task which is altogether beyond their strength. I have had experience of this. I have seen in South Africa what a tremendous task it is for more than a million white men to deal with six or seven millions of natives. I saw Natal with a very small white population, though it was vastly larger than that of Kenya, really overwhelmed by the responsibility and difficulty of dealing with the Zulus. When I was in South Africa that Colony had to face a Zulu Rebellion which, in my judgment, never would have occurred at all had South Africa been a Crown Colony. And it was a matter of immense
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relief to all those who cared for Natal, and I cared deeply, when the Union of South Africa took place and the whole of South Africa became responsible for the native problem in Natal.
If I may diverge for one moment to a kindred subject which is also within the responsibility of my noble friend the Secretary of State, I do not conceal from him or from this House that I regard the immediately pending grant of responsible government to Southern Rhodesia with anxiety on this score. Our fellow-countrymen there are a splendid population, but they are a mere handful and the natives are very numerous. I think they would have an extraordinarily difficult task to fulfil in governing on their own responsibility tribes like the Matabele who outnumber them in such great proportion. That is my only misgiving. I have the greatest possible confidence in the people of Southern Rhodesia, but I know from the experience of Natal what a terrific burden it is upon a small white community and how hard it is for them to be wise and fair.
But all these communities vastly exceed in numbers, if I may use that expression when the total numbers are really so small, the white population of Kenya. Therefore, I rejoice that my noble friend has said quite definitely and quite bluntly that there can be no question within any future that he can foresee of giving responsible government in Kenya to the present white population or the white and Indian populations taken together. I am quite sure that is in the interests of the Empire. It is in the interests of the Africans inhabiting that country, and, in the long run, it is in the interests of our own fellow-countrymen, that splendid class of settler that is now in Kenya, and of our Indian fellow-countrymen there.
Now I come to that aspect of the Indian side of the question as to which I must differ from my noble friend Lord Chelmsford, who has just spoken. I inadvertently cheered him. I thought he was praising the communal system of representation; but I discovered that, owing to some difficulty in hearing, I was mistaken and that he had been describing the common electoral roll. I should like to examine that question for a few moments. It is very unfortunate that an attempt is being made in certain quarters

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to represent the communal system of representation as something inferior to the common electoral roll—as something not really consistent with the true principles of democracy and, therefore, as a somewhat inferior thing. I believe those statements to be fundamentally untrue. Every system of representation is, after all, only a means to an end. There is no one hall-marked pattern of representation.
The ancients had quite different systems of democracy to ours, and our system of geographical representation with the electoral roll is a mere accident. It arises from the fact that for a long period there was only one interest that had voted in this country, and that was the landed interest. The easiest method of dividing the voters into constituencies was territorial. But the circumstances of modern democracy are very different. I regard this invention of the communal roll as a great contribution, and one of which more and more advantage will be taken in more and more places as the years go on. And this great contribution is an Indian contribution. It was made—if I am not correct in this my noble friends on the Cross Benches will correct me—the solution by the Hindu and the Mahomedan of their different aims and interests in the matter of representation in India. They invented the communal roll, and when I had the honour of presiding over a Select Committee of the two Houses of Parliament which dealt with the Government of India Act I was surprised to find that some of the very supporters of the system were apologetic for it instead of being proud of it. They put it forward as a temporary expedient. I do not believe that it is a temporary expedient, either in India or in Kenya. I believe it is going to spread, and I will tell your Lordships why.
When I was in South Africa it was very often my part to argue with my South African friends about the absence of all representation of the African native, even the civilised native, and my South African friends used to say: "Oh, but the white man represents the African interests." It is not true. It is perfectly impossible for the white man in South Africa or anywhere else adequately to represent the Africans. The psychology of the two races is different, the point of view is different, and the standards of civilisation
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are different. Take the case of Kenya. The African there has not begun civilisation. It is impossible to pretend that a white man can represent his interests in any real or reasonable sense, and it is equally impossible to suppose that an Indian can represent the African's interests. That is equally true of the Indian and of the European. In any circumstances is it possible to say that an Englishman can represent Indian opinion I Of course, he cannot. Nor can an Indian adequately represent British opinion.
Why? Because they represent two completely different civilisations, not inferior or superior civilisations, but different civilisations. The Indian is the older, and God forbid that I should for one moment put forward western civilisation as superior to the eastern. It is quite sufficient to state, what never can be refuted, that they are fundamentally different, and if they are fundamentally different it is certain that no Englishman could adequately represent the Indian point of view, and no Indian could adequately represent the English point of view. Therefore, the solution for them, as for the African, is the communal roll, which, in any Parliament or in any Legislature composed of three different races, or more than two races, is the only method, I believe, by which the real opinion of those races can be adequately and permanently protected and expressed. Therefore I am surprised and sorrowful that any of our Indian fellow countrymen should be ashamed, or appear to be ashamed, of the communal system of representation which they invented, and which I believe is going to play a great part in the solution of many of these problems of popular Government in the future.
I have only one word more to say, and that is in respect of a very old friend of mine whom my noble friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies mentioned, Sir Robert Coryndon, the Governor of Kenya. I had the privilege of getting to know him very well in South Africa. He served under me, and I found him always a very strong, wise, efficient and loyal public servant. I am sure that the task he has had to fulfil has been one of immense difficulty and responsibility, and I was very glad to hear what my noble friend said, because it is a great encouragement to our great public

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servants and our Governors in these distant Possessions when their work is thus recognised, when they are supported by their chief, and have such recognition as that which was so ably expressed by my noble friend.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, perhaps at this point you will allow me to say a few words. The two noble Lords, both of whom have held the very high position of Viceroy in India, have already borne eloquent testimony to the strength of Indian opinion on this subject, and, if I may say so, I entirely agree with what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Chelmsford, as to the vast amount of legendary matter that has grown up and associated itself with what is no doubt a complicated question, but of which the lines are comparatively clear. I have always represented, when I had the opportunity of speaking to our white settlers in Kenya, that this theory of theirs that they were going to be overwhelmed by vast masses of immigrants from India, coming there apparently for the purpose of overwhelming them, was a complete myth, tested either by common sense or by figures. Obviously the Indians from India would, like other people, enter the country for economic reasons, in order to get a living, and if they could not get a living in the country they would go back to India, and see if they could not do better in their own country.
Everybody will recognise the extraordinary difficulty of dealing—at least, of dealing in such a way as to please everybody—with the conditions in Kenya with 10,000 white men, 2,500,000 Africans, 22,000 Indians and 32,000 Arabs. I should like to say that on this question the Government of India—and it is only fair to them to say so—have shown a most vivid consciousness of the interests of India and have been most active in presenting the case of India in all its bearings, and in all its different aspects, to His Majesty's Government through myself. I want to emphasise, if I may, what has been said by the noble Viscount, Lord Chelmsford, for I expressed it very strongly to a large Committee of the House of Commons whom I addressed on this subject. It has been said by one of the settlers in Kenya that this was only a question that interested some of the friends of Gandhi, and some of the extremists
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in India. I said: "If that were so I should not be here to address this Committee of the House of Commons."
Interest in this question is universal in all political India, as has been shown repeatedly by the great organs of political expression in India, and by the Assembly and the Council of State. We have had the advantage also of having the whole case vividly presented to us from the Indian point of view by the deputation that came over from India, entirely unofficially, in the persons of Mr. Sastri, Mr. Jamnadas Dwarkadas, and Mr. Kemat. The treatment of Indians must be looked upon in the light of the great ambition of political India to earn a place as an equal partner among the Dominions of the British Empire and to share in the ambitions, the historical traditions, and the splendour of the Empire. They are deeply interested in what I may call the corollaries of that decision. Lord Hardinge has alluded to the Resolution of 1921 and much has been said on that. Certainly the deputation which came from India did not so much rely upon that—there were various interpretations and limitations put upon it—as they did upon what they called the broad and general equities of the case.
I should like to add this. Unfortunately and wrongly as I think, this settlement is denounced, so far as I have been able to see, in many of the Indian papers as being unfair to Indians at every point. All I ask them to do is to wait until they have seen the full text of this Memorandum, and when they have studied it they will see how unfair such a description is. Let me allude to one or two points in the White Paper. My noble friend Lord Selborne made a most eloquent defence of the communal system. It was so eloquent and earnest that I thought that he, as Chairman of the Joint Committee, must have been the author of it. I am sure it will interest him to know that although that system in many ways has prevailed in India there is in the Assembly and in the Council of State a very strong feeling against it.
Although the noble Earl says it is an Indian invention they do not seem to be so proud of their own offspring. They say: "We do not look upon it as a great invention. We think that where it can be avoided it should be avoided. We prefer the common roll." I agree with my

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noble friend that nobody can say that the communal system is any badge of inferiority. It is another method of arriving at the same basis. I differ from him in this—that I do think, in the peculiar circumstances of the Colony, it might have been better if you had had representatives who represented both Britons and Indians. That mingling of interests would have been of the greatest value. But I recognise that there are advantages in this communal roll in two ways. One is that the great system of African representation might fit more easily into it and, the second, that in the present strong division of opinion in Kenya it would be difficult for one race to represent the interests of the other.
May I express my sympathy with one point alluded to by Lord Hardinge when he said—I felt there was much force in it—that here are Indians prevented from acquiring land in the highlands, assuming it to be important that the highlands should be reserved for white settlers, while that privilege may be enjoyed by citizens of other States who are not citizens of the British Empire? I hope it may be possible to reserve the transference and grant of land to European British subjects.
It is entirely untrue to say, as the Indian papers suggest, that the scales are weighted against them in these decisions. Though they may criticise some portions of the Memorandum there are four points with which they are in the strongest 6ympathy. They agree with all that has been said by the most reverend Primate and other speakers as to the orientation of British policy in the protection of African races. Lord Chelmsford has told us that there has never been any difference of opinion in India on that subject, and if I may bring that information up to date I should say that both deputations, and especially that which came from India, strongly assented to that view and felt that the first consideration in Kenya must be those two and a half million Africans. They felt that it was a great thing to secure that there should be a majority of British officials, in whoso justice they could trust, upon the Assembly. They assured me over and over again, and it is a belief that will never be contradicted or shaken, that
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whatever their feelings might be about local administration they had the fullest confidence in the justice of the Central Government of the country.
The declaration that the grant of responsible self-government is out of the question within any period of time which need not be taken into consideration is very satisfactory. In the light of that, whatever differences of opinion there may be about franchise and votes have less importance. If they are not to be considered in the light of responsible government or leading up to responsible government they lose weight and importance. The question of segregation has been satisfactorily dealt with. I take note, and it is one of the most important declarations in this White Paper to which I desire to draw the particular attention of my Indian friends, that—
"Such racial discrimination in immigration regulations, whether specific or implied, would not be in accord with the general policy of His Majesty's Government…"
In the light of that declaration it will be imposible for intelligent Indian opinion, when it has carefully studied this document, to maintain the first impression which seems to have obtained, that this Memorandum weights the scales unfairly against Indians. They will find, when it is studied, that there is much of value in it and that both races in Kenya Colony will be able to work under this Constitution. The representative bodies, the Council of State and the Assembly in India, will recognise that the British Government has not dealt unfairly with this most difficult question.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, I will only detain your Lordships for one moment on this question. I had intended to offer some observations on the subject because I have had the advantage of visiting the country in question—admittedly, a long time ago, but the essentials of the problem have not changed at all—and also because I have been studying it with great care for some time past. But owing to the transference of the debate at short notice to to-day I, like a number of your Lordships who have been following this Question, was not able to be in my place and hear the earlier speeches and the statement of the noble Duke. Therefore it would be somewhat discourteous for me to offer any lengthy remarks now However, I should like to refer to one point, and one point only.

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I think it was Lord Milner, in the debate on July 14, 1920, who said that there was no question the reasonable consideration of which had been rendered more difficult by exaggerations. We have seen during the last two or three years, on the part of both white settlers and Indians, statements which can only be called very exaggerated. Both sides have repudiated certain lines of settlement in advance, and it would seem that the opinion which the noble Viscount has just expressed that there should be a period of waiting before decided comment is made is most apposite in the interests of the full settlement of this question.
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Whatever views may be held as to the details of the settlement, I think no one can deny that all parties have received a very full and careful hearing in this country, and consequently I hope, apart from all the details contained in the White Paper, that special attention may be addressed to the words with which it concludes, expressing the hope of His Majesty's Government that "a sincere effort will be made to restore in Kenya that spirit of co-operation and good will so essential to its welfare and development."
House adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock till tomorrow at eleven o'clock.