Sitting of 25 July 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Seaham Harbour Dock Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 20th July, and agreed to.
Lytham Saint Anne's Corporation Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; Amendments made.
Ordered, "That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
King's Consent signified.
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Swanage Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered.
Ordered, "That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill,
Tramways Provisional Orders Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  JUGO-SLAVIA (LOAN).
  Mr. NOEL BUXTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has participated in the loan lately advanced by the French Government to Jugo-Slavia; and whether he is aware
  424
  that the avowed object of the loan is to strengthen the military forces of Jugoslavia?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Ronald McNeill): The answer to the first part of this question is in the negative. I am not aware that the Jugo-Slav Government have announced the precise purpose to be served by the loan, but a report by the Finance Committee of the French Chamber includes, among the purposes for which the loan is made, such nonmilitary works as the extension of railways and telegraphs and the provision of rolling stock.
  Mr. BUXTON: Will the Foreign Office use its influence with the Jugo-Slav Government as to referring grievances to the League of Nations?
  Mr. McNEILL: I could not give any pledge of that sort.

  CONSULAR SERVICE.
  Sir EDWIN STOCKTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Consular positions regarded as being in the first grade are not filled at the present time for any reason; and whether, in view of the importance to trade of an effective Consular Service, he proposes to take steps to fill any vacancies?
  Mr. McNEILL: None of the senior posts in the Consular Service is vacant except one in Turkey, which cannot be filled until political conditions allow of the officer selected proceeding to his post.

  TURKEY (DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR RELATIONS).
  3. Sir E. STOCKTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the conclusion of peace at Lausanne, it is proposed to reestablish without delay full British diplomatic and consular representation in Turkey, particularly with the object of promoting trade?
  Mr. McNEILL: Normal diplomatic and consular relations with Turkey will be re-established as soon as the Treaty of Peace comes into full force.
  Captain BERKELEY: Will the Treaty of Peace be laid before the House for its approval?
  Mr. McNEILL: The hon. and gallant Gentleman had better put that question to the Prime Minister.

  CHINA.

    BRITISH INTERESTS (PROTECTION).
    Sir HARRY BRITTAINasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official knowledge of the present internal state of China; and whether he can state what measures are being taken, if any, for the safeguarding of British citizens domiciled in the Republic and the safeguarding of the property of our nationals?
    Mr. McNEILL: His Majesty's Government are aware of the disturbed conditions at present obtaining in China, and are doing all that is possible in the circumstances to safeguard British lives and property in that country. His Majesty's Minister at Peking has been authorised in particular to join with his colleagues in pressing for the establishment of a railway force under foreign officers.

    FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Consortium is making, or has made, any efforts to afford financial assistance to China during the present crisis?
    Mr. McNEILL: I would refer to the answer given on the 14th May to the hon. Member for Wirrall. The Consortium representatives at Peking are at present examining the question of the consolidation of China's existing unsecured obligations, which must be a necessary first step towards the putting in order of Chinese finances. Pending the outcome of this examination, His Majesty's Government deprecate any proposals for making fresh loans to China.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a good deal has happened since the middle of May, and the position is desperate?
    Mr. McNEILL: I think that rather reinforces my answer.

    PASSPORTS.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now prepared to recommend that the life of a British passport be increased from two years to a period of five years or longer?
    Mr. McNEILL: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question of 18th June last, to which I have for the moment nothing to add.

  EGYPT.

    RUSSIAN REPRESENTATIVES.
    Major ATTLEEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that there are now in Egypt a Russian Minister, or Russian Consuls, or Russian representatives who claim to represent the late Tsar's Government; whether these persons are in any way recognised by the Egyptian Government; and whether they are maintained or supported at the expense of the Egyptian or British Governments, either by the provision of accommodation or otherwise?
    Mr. McNEILL: So far as I am aware, the representative of the late Tsar's Government is still residing in Cairo, but the degree of recognition and the amount of the financial assistance accorded to him by the Egyptian Government are not matters on which I can properly comment, in view of the fact that no funds are supplied and no responsibility in the matter is accepted by His Majesty's Government.
    Captain BERKELEY: Is he recognised as a Minister by the British authorities in Egypt as holding diplomatic status?
    Mr. McNEILL:I should require notice of that question. I think not, but I am not certain.

    DEATH SENTENCES.
    Mr. SPOORasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the appeal of the five Egyptians sentenced to death by a military tribunal in Egypt is pending before the Army Council; if so, whether due regard will be had to the reliability or otherwise of the evidence upon which they were convicted; and whether, in the

    427
    interests of promoting good will in Egypt, full consideration wilil be given to all the circumstances?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness): No appeal has yet been received, and I am not aware whether the persons referred to are exercising their right of appeal. I can only say, therefore, that in the event of an appeal being received, all due consideration will necessarily be given to it.

    NAVAL STRENGTH (GREAT BRITAIN, JAPAN AND FRANCE).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many battleships, battle cruisers, light cruisers, ocean-going destroyers, including flotilla leaders, aircraft carriers, and submarines, are in full commission in the Royal Navy, the Royal Japanese Navy, and the French Navy, respectively?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Commander Eyres-Monsell): As the reply is in tabular form I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman answer the last part of the question as to battleships?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman had better wait till he sees the tabular statement.
    Following is the Tabular Statement:

    —

    Japan.

    France.

    British Empire.

    Battleships

    4

    5

    13*

    Battle Cruisers

    3

    —

    2

    Light Cruisers

    11

    4

    34

    Destroyers

    22

    30

    71†

    Submarines

    11

    28

    41

    Aircraft Carriers

    1

    —

    3

    * Does not include "Ajax" and "Centurion" which have 3/5ths crews although running with an active service squadron.

    †Including Flotilla Leaders.

    Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many destroyers are now completed and how many
    428
    are building or are to be laid down in the Japanese and British Navies?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Amery): Japan has 76 destroyers completed, 12 building, and 21 to be laid down and completed by March, 1928. The British Empire has 183 destroyers built and three building. In addition, there are 16 flotilla leaders completed and two building: The above figures do not include any vessels over 15 years old.
    Commander BELLAIRSasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any of the money voted by Japan for increasing the elevation of the guns of her capital ships has yet been spent; and whether Japan now accepts our view that such action would be contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Washington Treaty?
    Mr. AMERY: No money has been voted by Japan specifically for increasing elevation of guns. The sum of 50,000,000 yen (£5,000,000) in round figures has been earmarked for "alterations to capital ships," to be divided between the years 1923 to 1931, the amount to be expended in 1923–24 being 2,259,000 yen. It is understood that the existing capital ships are to be given increased protection against air attack, but the details regarding any further alterations that may be contemplated are not known. It is understood from Press reports that ships are to be taken in hand one at a time and the work is to be completed by 1931. With regard to the second part of the question, the Admiralty has no official information.
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give any particulars as to the number and armaments of the light cruisers now completed in the Japanese and British navies, and how many are building or are to be laid down?
    Mr. AMERY: As the reply is a long one in tabular form I will, with my Noble and gallant Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Viscount CURZON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the number of ships in the two Navies?
    Mr. AMERY: Yes, Japan—built, 15; building, 8; to be laid down, 6. British Empire—built, 48; building, 4; to be laid down, none.
    The reply is as follows:

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    JAPANESE LIGHT CRUISERS.

    Built number.

    Building number.

    To be laid down.

    Armament.

    1

    —

    —

    2–6"; 10–4·7"; 2–12 pdr.; 3 T. (18").

    3

    —

    —

    8–6"; 4–12 pdr.; 3 T. (18").

    2

    —

    —

    4–5·5"; 1–12 pdr. AA; 6 T. (21").

    9

    5

    —

    7–5·5"; 2–12 pdr. AA; 8 T. (21").

    —

    1

    —

    6–5 5"; 4T. (21").

    —

    2

    2

    7,100 tons, armament not known.

    —

    —

    4

    10,000 tons, armament not known.

    15

    8

    6

    BRITISH LIGHT CRUISERS.

    1

    —

    —

    7–7·5"; 4–3" AA.

    1

    —

    —

    4–7·5"; 4–3" AA; 4–3".

    3

    —

    —

    6–6"; 2–4" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    5

    —

    —

    6–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    5

    —

    —

    5–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    8

    —

    —

    5–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    2

    —

    —

    5–6"; 2–3" AA; 2–3 pdr.

    5

    —

    —

    4–6"; 2–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    1

    —

    —

    4–6"; 1–3" AA; 2–2 pdr.

    4

    —

    —

    4–6"; 2–3" AA.

    2

    —

    —

    8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    3

    —

    —

    9–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    6

    —

    —

    8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    1

    —

    —

    2–6"; 6–4"; 1–4" AA.

    1

    —

    —

    8–6"; 1–3" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    —

    2

    —

    7–7·5"; 3–4" AA.

    —

    2

    —

    7–6"; 2–4" AA; 4–3 pdr.

    48

    4

    —

  ROYAL NAVY.

    SUNKEN BLOCKSHIPS, SCAPA FLOW.
    Sir ROBERT HAMILTONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the success attending the operations to remove the blockship "Numi-dian" from Holm Sound, Scapa Flow, it is now intended to extend similar operations to the "Lorne" in Water Sound, or other blockships in those waters'?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: Investigation of the results so far achieved is about to be made on the spot; and the question of dealing with other sunken vessels will not be considered until an official report of the success of the "Numidian" operations has been received, as was. indicated in my reply of the 25th April last.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information as to the proposed salvage of the "Natal" at Invergordon?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I am afraid that hardly arises out of the question on the paper.

    SINGAPORE BASE.
    Viscount CURZONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty which ships of the Royal Navy cannot use the existing dock at Singapore; and whether damaged ships could make use of the existing dock?
    Mr. AMERY: The existing dock'at Singapore will not take

    2

    "Rodney" class (building).

    5

    "Royal Sovereigns."

    2

    "Renowns."

    5

    "Queen Elizabeths" (when bulged).

    1

    "Hood."

    1

    "Eagle."

    16

    (total).

    Damaged capital ships or aircraft carriers may draw up to 45 feet. We,

    431
    therefore, cannot rely in war on the dock the maximum draught of which is 33 feet taking damaged capital ships or aircraft carriers.
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Prime Minister whether, as the Foreign Office did not represent the necessity for a naval base at Singapore, he will say what representations were made that led to the Cabinet decision approving the project?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The development of the naval base at Singapore was recommended by the Admiralty in order to enable modern capital ships to be docked and repaired in Eastern waters and to increase the mobility of the Navy generally. This recommendation was endorsed, after exhaustive inquiry, by the Committee of Imperial Defence and by the Cabinet.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Foreign Office was not consulted on this matter at all?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not know whether it was specifically consulted, but, of course, the Foreign Office is represented in the Cabinet.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Did the Foreign Office, as the Department responsible for foreign affairs, apprehend any particular danger in these waters?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Had that been the case, obviously it would have been brought to my notice.
    Sir A. SHIRLEY BENN: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the statement, reported in the Press, of a leading Japanese statesman in Tokio to the effect that the building of Singapore dock is, if the British Empire is to look after its interests in the Pacific, the natural sequence to the ending of the Japanese-British alliance?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have not seen that, but it seems to me to be a very sensible statement.
    Commander BELLAIRS: Is the Prime Minister aware that the only precedent for the Foreign Office establishing a base
    432
    was at Wei-hai-wei, and that the Admiralty wisely turned it into a health resort?
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in 1911 Lord Fisher recommended Singapore as a naval base for the Far East?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is giving information.

    SHIPWRIGHTS.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if there is a post-War complement for warrant shipwrights; and if it is the intention of the Admiralty to promote the shipwrights who have just completed the final technical qualifying examination in His Majesty's dockyards?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The post-War establishment has not yet been definitely fixed, but it is anticipated that it will shortly be settled, and it is then the intention to make a small number of promotions to warrant ship-wrights as may be found necessary to meet requirements.

    WIDOWS' PENSIONS, RELATIVE RANK, AND OFFICERS' ACCOMMODATION.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the First Lord of they Admiralty whether the Committees appointed to consider the questions respecting the position of post-War widows' pensions, relative rank, and officers' accommodation are still sitting; and, if so, can he inform the House when their Reports will be received?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The question of post-War rates of pensions for widows of warrant officers and commissioned officers from warrant rank and certain other classes is still under consideration. The Committee set up to consider the accommodation in His Majesty's ships is still sitting and I cannot say at present when their Report will be received.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Am I to understand that the Committees are about to be re-formed, or are already formed?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: It is still under consideration.

    SICK BERTH, SUPPLY, AND NAVAL COOK BRANCHES.
    Major Sir BERTRAM FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that automatic promotion is already existent in His Majesty's Navy, he will consider the introduction of automatic promotion for the sick berth, supply, and naval cook branches in His Majesty's Navy?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The answer is in the negative.
    Viscountess ASTOR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been no promotion among sick berth attendants at Plymouth since October, 1921, and that there have been great delays in the naval cook branch?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: That hardly arises out of the question. The question is whether promotion should be automatic.
    Viscountess ASTOR: I think it does arise out of the question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order‡"] Who is "ordering" me?

    LIFE CERTIFICATE (SIGNATURE).
    Sir B. FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that a sergeant of police is authorized to sign the life certificate of a pensioner, he will extend the Regulation to admit of pensioner chief petty officers and chief petty officers of the Royal Navy, who hold a relatively higher rank, to do so?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The selection of persons allowed to attest life certificates of pensioners is a matter for the Treasury, but the Admiralty see no reason for making the proposed extension.
    Sir B. FALLE: Can the right hon. and gallant Member say why a distinction is made against the senior Service?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: It is a Treasury rule, and the sergeants at police stations are considered very suitable people to sign. It is no reflection on anybody else.

    CANTEEN REPRESENTATIVES.
    Sir B. FALLEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in the reply given to Item 53 of the 1922 General Welfare Requests, it is to be understood that it is the Admiralty's intention to
    434
    permit serving ratings of His Majesty's Royal Navy to elect a civilian to represent them at the quarterly meetings of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes; whether the Admiralty realise the serious consequences of such a decision; and, if such is not the intention, will they revise the reply given to the item in question to make it quite clear that canteen representatives must be serving ratings as requested by the welfare representatives?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative and to the second part, that the Admiralty do not consider that the decision involves any serious consequences whatsoever. The third part of the question does not arise.

    AIR OFFICERS AND MEN.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENNasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how long the Admiralty intends to retain and pay 140 officers and 1,000 men in anticipation of some decision of the Government to set up a naval branch of the Air Service?
    Mr. AMERY: I hope that a decision will shortly be announced on the issue referred to by the hon. and gallant Member.
    Captain BENN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any precedent for a public office continuing to employ people without any decision of Parliament, and paying them, in anticipation of something which they hope is going to be done?
    Mr. AMERY: The personnel referred to were kept on with the sanction of the Treasury, and whilst pending a decision.
    Captain BENN: Does the right hon. Gentleman set up the principle that the Cabinet is to decide how public money is to be expended, or is it this House?
    Viscount CURZON: Was not this question fully debated and answered by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Amery) in the course of discussion in this House?

    PENSIONS (COLONIAL SERVICE).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the welfare decision, promulgated in Admiralty Fleet Order 1,703, item No. 4, stating that the first period of 12 years is not considered

    435
    pensionable service unless the engagement to complete the time for pension is entered upon, he will state the amount received by the Admiralty in respect of pension liability on account of active service ratings loaned to the Colonial navies during the last five years; whether this money has been deducted from the pay and allowances of the men so loaned; and, having in view Article 368 K.R. and A.I., whether it is proposed to take steps to refund to any such men who do not reengage to complete the time for pension, or who are discharged before the expiration of their engagements, the amount deducted for pension liability?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: As the reply is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The reply is as follows:
    The amount received from Dominion Governments in respect of pension liability for men lent from the Imperial Navy during the last five years amounted to approximately £120,000. This includes the contribution in respect of men in their first or second engagements, non-continuous service ratings and reservists, and also arrears of increased rates levied after the introduction of higher scales of pension in 1919. In the case of Australia and New Zealand, the contribution is deducted by the Dominion authorities from the deferred pay issuable under Dominion regulations. In Canada deferred pay is not granted, and the Canadian Government pay the pension contribution. With regard to the last part of the question, the reference to Article 368 of the King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions is not understood, and I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for the North Division of Portsmouth on the 18th July.

    OFFICERS' PAY.
    Mr. PRIVETTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is proposed to revise the rates of pay for naval officers next year; and, if so, will he appoint a Committee beforehand to inquire into the question and give facilities for officers to appear before the Committee to state their views on the subject?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: The general question is now being considered by the Anderson Committee.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Do you propose to revise these rates upwards or downwards?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I must leave that to the Anderson Committee.

    SIGNAL AND WIRELESS SCHOOLS, PORTSMOUTH (WOMEN EMPLOYES).
    Mr. PRIVETTasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the number of women employed in the signal and wireless schools in the Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth, as tracers, valve testers, and clerks, and the amount of money per year required to meet these requirements; and whether he will, without detriment to any widows or single women who may have dependants solely depending upon their income from this source, substitute suitable ex-naval ratings with families rather than compel them to seek out-of-work relief?
    Commander EYRES-MONSELL: I am having the desired information obtained, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as it has been received.

    ALIEN IMMIGRANTS (PERMITS).
    Captain AINSWORTHasked the Minister of Labour how many permit she has issued within the last year to alien immigrants on the ground that his Ministry is satisfied that the posts which these immigrants came to fill could not be filled by residents in this country; and whether he will state the exact nature of the various specific posts?
    The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Montague Barlow): As the answer is somewhat long, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The number of permits issued by the Minister of Labour under Article 1 (3) (b) of the Aliens Order, 1920, during the twelve months ended the 15th June last was 2,608. Permits were refused in 1,720 cases. Permits are not ordinarily issued except where the prospective employer has made proper efforts to obtain suitable

    437
    employés in the country but without success, or where the admission of the alien will lead to increased employment for British workpeople. In many cases the alien is required to give instruction in special processes, and other conditions are imposed in appropriate cases with the object of safeguarding the position of British employés. It may be added that in a large number of instances, the permits were granted for a limited period only.
    The classes of alien employés in respect of whom permits were issued were as follows:

    Domestic servants

    845

    Musicians, including soloists

    86

    Variety artists, concert artists, and actors, etc.

    753

    Foreign correspondence clerks, etc. (including 148 admitted for training prior to transfer abroad or to replace other so transferred, and 92 admitted temporarily to take nominal posts while studying)

    340

    Mosaic terrazzo and asphalt workers, etc.

    39

    Engineers (to erect imported machinery)

    73

    Glass workers

    39

    Watch and watch-case makers

    7

    Spelter furnace workers

    37

    Sugar-beet workers (seasonal employment)

    20

    Seine net fishers, cod splitters, etc.(seasonal vacancies)

    69

    Hotel and restaurant employés (mainly in exchange for British employés proceeding abroad for experience)

    71

    Teachers of foreign languages

    116

    Nurses

    31

    Miscellaneous

    82

    2,608

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    DOCK DISPUTE, LONDON.
    Major ATTLEEasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that men in the area of the London dock dispute are being refused unemployment benefit, although they have been unemployed and in receipt of benefit prior to the occur-
    438
    rence of the dispute; and whether he will issue instructions to the officials of the Labour Exchanges to prevent these men being deprived of the benefit for which they have paid and to which they are entitled?
    Sir M. BARLOW: Dock workers in London within the area of the general dispute have been held by the Chief Insurance Officer to be disqualified for benefit under Section 8 (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920. The Court of Referees on appeal upheld the Insurance Officer's decision, but gave the applicants leave to appeal to the Umpire. Further appeal may, therefore, be made to the Umpire by the applicants themselves or by any association of which they are members. I have no authority to order payment of benefit contrary to the decisions arrived at by the machinery of the Insurance Officer, Court of Referees and the Umpire.
    Major ATTLEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a very large number of men at the docks who have been unemployed during a great period, and will now be deprived of the benefit for which they paid? Cannot something be done to deal with their cases?
    Sir M. BARLOW: To use the word" deprive "rather begs the question. Here is the machinery for deciding these cases, and that machinery is open to the men. They can appeal to the umpires. I cannot alter the decision of the umpires.
    Mr. MUIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the decision is correct?

    BENEFIT.
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Minister of Labour whether he will have immediate inquiry made as to the action of the Audley Employment Exchange in making the gap in benefit now instead of at the end of the benefit year, because work may be available in harvesting, in view of the hardship imposed on people who did not expect the gap so early?
    Sir M. BARLOW: Local employment committees are authorised to recommend the suspension of uncovenanted benefit in particular cases, whether in order to vary

    439
    the period during which the Statutory "gap" will fall or for other reasons, I understand that the local committee has taken such action in a case of which the hen. and gallant Member has sent me particulars, and I am inquiring into this.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that similar action has been taken in a number of cases, and is it within the powers of the local committee to alter the gap for a whole category of workers, or only in individual cases?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I should like to have notice of that question. Prima facie, it has to be dealt with by individual cases.

    INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Labour the result of the consideration given, as promised, by his Department to the proposal of insurance by industries and to the Watson Report on the insurance scheme as a whole?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I wrote on 28th November, 1922, to the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations and the Trades Union Congress General Council inviting their views on the question of unemployment insurance by industries, and I am at present awaiting replies from these organisations. From inquiry which I made recently, I understand they still have the matter under consideration. The Inter-Departmental Committee on Health and Unemployment Insurance has made three interim Reports. Action has been taken in accordance with the recommendations of the first two Reports. The Third Report recommended the abolition of refunds to insured workers at the age of 60 and a modification of the rule limiting covenanted benefit in relation to the number of contributions paid; these recommendations could not be adopted -without legislation.
    Mr. SOMERVILLEalso asked the Minister of Labour the present number of workers who come under the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act; and whether they do all contribute when actually in employment?
    Sir M. BARLOW: The total number of persons falling under the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme in Great Britain is estimated at about 11,500,000. There are naturally a certain number of cases of failure on the part of employers and workmen to pay contributions, but, generally speaking, contributions are duly paid by all of them. I may add that the unemployment insurance contributions from employers and employed at the present time amount to about £34,000,000 per annum.

    GOVERNMENT PLANS.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Prime Minister what preparation the Government has made to relieve unemployment during the coming winter?
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the serious prospects of the continuance of a large amount of unemployment, what further steps the Government are taking to provide for the situation which will arise in the coming winter; and whether the public work to be put in hand or assisted and the funds available will provide employment for as many men as were employed by similar means last winter?
    Mr. SNOWDENasked the Prime Minister what special steps are being taken by the Government, in view of the serious statements as to the trade outlook recently made by Ministers, to deal with the unemployment problem during the coming winter?
    The PRIME MINISTER: It is not possible to deal with this matter by means of question and answer. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, however, proposes to make a full statement on the subject before the House adjourns, and perhaps hon. Members will await that statement.
    Captain BENN: When shall we have an opportunity of debating this question?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think probably on the second day of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: Will the Government in making their statement have regard to the fact that the financial position of those areas where unemployment is greatest is worse than it was last year?

    CREDIT FACILITIES.
    Mr. GRAHAM WHITEasked the Prime Minister if any inquiry is being made into the relation of credit facilities to unemployment; and, if not, if he will institute an expert inquiry into the whole question of the relations of currency policy, price movements, and unemployment?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think that the time has yet arrived when such an inquiry could serve any useful purpose.

    NECESSITOUS AREAS.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is prepared to accept the formula submitted by the representatives of certain necessitous areas as a basis for granting assistance towards the abnormal burden thrown on their local rates, due to the unemployment in their districts being much in excess of the average for the rest of the country?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): No, Sir. On careful consideration I came to the conclusion that I could not recommend acceptance of the formula in view of the inequitable results which it would produce as between different areas. I may add that the position of the so-called necessitous areas is at present under the consideration of a Cabinet Committee, and I hope to make a statement as to the decision of the Government before the Adjournment.
    Mr. THOMSON: Will that statement be made in answer to a question, or in debate?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am afraid I cannot answer that question, but I will communicate with the hon. Member.

    OUTDOOR RELIEF.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Minister of Health if, taking all towns with over 25,000 population, he can state the six which pay out on the highest scale of outdoor relief for able-bodied unemployment and the six which pay out the lowest scale for such men, giving the figures in each case.
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving this information.
    Following is the statement promised:
    According to the information in the Department, the six unions including towns with a population exceeding 25,000 with the highest scales of out-door relief to able-bodied unemployed are as follows:—

    1. Bermondsey.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    28

    6

    Man and wife and 1 child

    34

    6

    Man and wife and 2 children

    39

    6

    Man and wife and 3 children

    44

    6

    Man and wife and 4 children.

    48

    6

    Man and wife and 5 children

    51

    0

    Maximum relief per household,52s. 6d.

    2. Poplar.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife.

    20

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    26

    6

    Man and wife and 2 children

    31

    6

    Man and wife and 3 children

    36

    6

    Man and wife and 4 children

    41

    6

    Man and wife and 5 children

    46

    6

    Man and wife and 6 children

    51

    6

    Plus rent. Plus coal to value of 1s. 6d. per week.
    Children over 16 and under 18, addition to parents' relief of 10s. boys and 8s. girls.

    3. Willesden.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    20

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    26

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    31

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    35

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    38

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    41

    0

    Man and wife and 6 children

    44

    0

    Maximum relief per household, 50s.
    Plus rent not to exceed 12s.

    4. Greenwich.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    31

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    36

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    41

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    45

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    49

    0

    Maximum income per household,50s. 6d.
    Plus rent up to 7s. if rent exceeds 5s.

    5. Chester Le Street.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    30

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    35

    0

    Man and wife and 3 Children

    40

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    45

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    50

    0

    Maximum income per household, 50s
    Plus two-thirds of weekly rent.

    6. Mile End Old Town.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    31

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    36

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    41

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    45

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    49

    0

    Man and wife and 6 children

    50

    6

    Maximum

    Plus half rent.
    The six unions including towns with a population exceeding 25,000 with the?lowest scales of out-door relief to able-bodied unemployed are as follows:—

    1. Dudley.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    18

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    20

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    21

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    22

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    23

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    24

    0

    Man and wife and 6 children

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 7 children

    26

    0

    Man and wife and 8 children

    27

    0

    Maximum income per household, 27s.

    2. Bridgwater.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    20

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    22

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    23

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    24

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    26

    0

    Man and wife and 6 children

    27

    0

    Maximum income per household, 27s.

    3. Dover.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    15

    0

    Man and wife 1 children

    17

    6

    Man and wife 2 children

    20

    0

    Man and wife 3 children

    22

    6

    Man and wife 4 children

    25

    0

    Man and wife 5 children

    27

    6

    Man and wife 6 children

    30

    0

    Maximum income per household, 30s.

    4. Penzance.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    13

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    16

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    19

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    22

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    28

    0

    Maximum income per household, 30s.

    5. Sudbury.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    18

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    21

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    23

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    25

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    27

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    29

    0

    Man and wife and 6 children

    30

    0

    Maximum income per household, 30s.

    6. Tavistock.

    s.

    d.

    Man and wife

    18

    0

    Man and wife and 1 child

    21

    0

    Man and wife and 2 children

    24

    0

    Man and wife and 3 children

    26

    0

    Man and wife and 4 children

    28

    0

    Man and wife and 5 children

    30

    0

    Maximum income per household, 30s.

    BOY LABOUR (MERSEYSIDE DOCKS).
    Mr. G. WHITEasked the Minister of Labour the reasons for the delay in acting on the Reports on boy labour at the Merseyside Docks; and if he will take steps to call a local conference of all concerned to consider the draft scheme prepared by the Ministry?
    Sir M. BARLOW: I am not aware that there has been any avoidable delay. I have no compulsory powers in this matter, which can therefore only be dealt with by discussion and agreement. The draft scheme has been circulated to the parties concerned and at the present time I am awaiting their observations, and when these replies are received I shall be prepared to consider whether a local conference can be called with advantage.

  HOUSING.

    BRICK SHORTAGE.
    Mr. FRANK GRAYasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware

    445
    that certain building operations are held up by reason of the shortage of supply of English bricks; whether he has any information as to the reason for this; and whether he can inform the House if there are a number of brickfields, working in 1914, which have not been reopened since the War?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that there is a temporary shortage of bricks in London and the South-Eastern Counties, and am informed that the Committee on Building Materials Prices will deal with this question in their report, which will be presented this week. There are, no doubt, some brickfields which, for economic reasons, are not producing at present, but I have no records of the numbers of them.

    APPROVED SCHEMES.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIESasked the Minister of Health the total number of approved schemes already sanctioned under the Housing Bill showing the numbers of schemes and houses of local authorities and private enterprise, respectively?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: 187 schemes providing for the erection of 13,382 houses by local authorities and 37 schemes providing for the erection of 3,486 houses by private enterprise have been approved under the Housing Bill.
    Mr. T. THOMSONasked the Minister of Health if he will give the latest information available as to the applications received for the erection of houses under the various schemes permitted by his new Housing Bill, the number sanctioned, and the number he estimates likely to be put in hand before the end of the year?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Up-to-date pro posals under the Bill have been submitted for the erection of approximately 22,000 houses and approvals have been given in respect of 16,868 houses. I have no means of estimating the number likely to be put in hand before the end of the year.

    DIABETES (INSULIN TREATMENT).
    Captain Viscount EDNAMasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that diabetic sufferers are unable to obtain insulin treatment at a lower
    446
    cost than 10s. per day, although panel patients under the Insurance Act are obtaining free treatment; and whether he will make arrangements for uninsured persons to obtain this treatment at a lower cost?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am advised that the average cost of insulin is at present about one-third of the figure stated by my Noble and gallant Friend, though the treatment of exceptionally severe cases such as must go to an institution may cost more. It is within the power of the guardians, on the advice of their medical officer, to pay for the supply of insulin in cases of destitution.
    Viscount EDNAM: In view of the importance of this cure, does the right hon. Gentleman not think the time has come for the Ministry to control prices?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think so, because the price has been reduced already very materially, and I have good hope that it will be still further reduced.
    Viscount EDNAM: But is it not far above the figure which the ordinary person can pay?

    DEATHS FROM STARVATION, LONDON.
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that it was ascertained, by inquests, that in 1921 three persons died of starvation, in the unions of Hammersmith, St. Olave, and Bermondsey, in the County of London; whether his Department has taken any, and, if so, what steps to prevent similar deaths; whether any and, if so, how many deaths in that county in 1922 were found by inquest to have been due to starvation or accelerated by privation; if he can supply particulars as to age, sex, date of inquest, and union concerned; whether any and, if so, what, Poor Law officers were examined at the inquest; and whether any of the persons so dying in either year were tramps or homeless?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am aware that three cases of death which occurred in the County of London in 1921 were found by inquest to be due to starvation. The unions concerned were Paddington, Hammersmith and Bermondsey. In the year 1922 no deaths in the county were

    447
    found by inquest to have been due to starvation or exposure, and accordingly the third and fourth parts of the question do not arise. The death which occurred in the Hammersmith union in 1921 was that of a homeless man.

    CASUAL WARDS, YORKSHIRE (MIDDAY MEALS).
    Mr. R. RICHARDSONasked the Minister of Health whether, in the 19 workhouses in Yorkshire and elsewhere where the casual wards are closed, midday meals have in fact been given to all the destitute wayfarers who, had the casual wards been open to them, would have been entitled to such meals under the Casual Paupers Order, Article 8; if he will obtain definite information from each workhouse how many casuals obtained and how many did not obtain the midday meal; and state in what book or account the gift or expense of midday meals in workhouses, when there is no casual ward, is recorded which ratepayers may inspect at the audit?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no reason to suppose that midday meals have not been duly supplied in the cases to which the hon. Member refers, but if he has any case in mind in which there is alleged to have been a failure in this respect, I will gladly investigate the case. I cannot, however, undertake such general inquiries as are suggested. The expenditure in respect of the meals supplied to casuals is recorded in a provisions consumption account which is open to the inspection of ratepayers at the audit.
    Mr. RICHARDSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of men who are seeking employment and cannot get a meal are frequently passing these places?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any cases I will look into them.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

    COMMITTEE OFFICERS (PENSIONS).
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Health whether it
    448
    is proposed to secure, as early as possible, the necessary legislative authority for the staffs of insurance committees to be included in the Local Government Officers Superannuation Act or, alternatively, for insurance committees to make the appropriate contribution to a scheme of superannuation giving equivalent benefits?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to a similar question by the hon. Member for East Hull on the 11th July. As regards the second part, insurance committees have no power to contribute to superannuation schemes, though it is open to them to make contribution to a superannuation fund on the part of their staffs a condition of employment. In view, however, of the limited amount available for expenses of administration, I am not prepared to sanction increases of salary designed to relieve the contributors of any part of their contributions.

    CONTRIBUTIONS.
    Major McKENZIE WOODasked the Minister of Health what amounts were received in each of the years 1921 and 1922 in England and Scotland, respectively, on account of national health insurance contributions; and what is the shortage in each year as compared with the amounts estimated?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: With the hon. Member's permission, I propose to circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The amounts of health insurance contributions were approximately as follows:

    In England and Wales:

    £

    1921

    …

    …

    22,130,000

    1922

    …

    …

    22,500,000

    In Scotland:

    1921

    …

    …

    2,740,000

    1922

    …

    …

    2,720,000

    The shortage of contributions as compared with the amount assumed in the financial basis of the Act, namely, about 48 contributions per insured person per annum, is estimated to be approximately 7 per cent. in England and Wales and 10 per cent. in Scotland.

    HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION.
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the voluntary hospitals of the country are crowded and subject to long waiting lists and that a large number of beds are unused in the Poor Law hospitals, he can take some immediate action to remove this anomaly?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think I could usefully undertake any general action in the direction suggested, but I should be very glad to consider any proposals which may be put forward by boards of guardians and the authorities of the hospitals for the general use of surplus accommodation in, Poor Law infirmaries.

    SLAVE TRADE, ABYSSINIA.
    Mr. WALLHEADasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to propose the admission of Abyssinia to the League of Nations as a sovereign State in order that the League may bring its full influence to bear with that State for the purpose of ending the slave-holding system which exists in Abyssinia?
    The PRIME MINISTER: There is no provision in the Covenant for a State being proposed as a member of the League by another State. It is for any State seeking admission to apply for membership itself. The answer is therefore in the negative.
    Captain BERKELEY: Will the British Government suggest to Abyssinia that she should apply for membership?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think that we must wait and see.

    SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Minister whether he is making arrangements to secure the presence of a Secretary for Scotland in the House of Commons next Session?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the negative.
    Mr. HARDIE:If we guarantee a safe seat in Glasgow, is there any chance of obtaining someone?

    PRE-WAR PENSIONS.
    Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Prime Minister whether, in order to allay the anxiety that prevails among the pre-War pensioners on the question, and in view of the postponement of the Pensions (Increase) Amendment Bill, he will follow the course taken by the Government before introducing the Pensions (Increase) Bill in 1920, and make a short statement to the House, giving the classes of pensioners that will be affected by the Measure and what increase will be given and can he say what will be the cost to the Exchequer of the additional percentages?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given him on this subject on the 12th July by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I still feel that it would be desirable to await the introduction of the Bill, and I hope my hon. Friend will not press his request.

    SMALL-POX AND VACCINATIONS.
    Mr. ADAMSasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that public vaccination is controlled by the Poor Law authorities, who have no responsibility in the prevention of smallpox, he will take the necessary steps to transfer their powers in this connection to the health authorities, who are responsible for the prevention of this disease?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: This suggestion is under consideration in connection with the general question of possible amendment of the Vaccination Acts.

    BIRTHS, DEATHS AND MARRIAGES (REGISTRATION).
    Mr. ADAMSasked the Minister of Health whether, seeing that the registration of births, deaths, and marriages, carried out to the requirements of the Registrar-General, is under the control of the Poor Law guardians, although these have little interest in the subject, he will transfer this duty to the health authorities who are mainly concerned, and who incur unavoidable expenditure in the purchase of copies of the Registrar's Returns each year?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: As previously stated, the reorganisation of the registration service is being considered, and the hon. Member's suggestion will be borne in mind. I am not, however, as yet in a position to make any announcement on the subject.

    DEATHS UNDER ANÆSTHETICS.
    Mr. BARNESasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that on Saturday, 8th May, 1923, Mr. Ernest Charles Glover, of 46, Groseley Lane, East Ham, was sent by his doctor to Poplar Hospital for a minor operation for stricture; that an anæsthetic was administered and an operation performed in his bed and not in the operating theatre, and that Glover did not recover from the operation; that at the inquest the coroner commented upon the fact that it was the third inquest he had held that day upon persons who had died following the administration of anæsthetics, and stated that, in his opinion, further investigation was necessary; and will he state to the House whether he will investigate these cases to ascertain if every care was exercised and, in addition, order an inquiry into the science of anæsthesia generally to safeguard the public from these unanticipated fatalities?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not received particulars of the case to which the hon. Member refers, but I will make inquiry with a view to considering whether further action is called for.

    SHERIFFS' OFFICERS (FEES).
    Mr. LEACHasked the Attorney-General if the accounts of sheriffs' officers concerned with County Court work and their charges for levying writs of fi. fa. are subject to audit by any Government Department?
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg): Execution in the County Court is levied by the High Bailiff and his officers, and not by the Sheriff. The fees are those prescribed by the County Courts Fees Order, or ordered or allowed by the judge under that Order. In the majority of cases the State has no pecuniary interest, as the fees are, paid over to the profit of the High Bailiff or
    452
    Registrar, and there is nothing to audit, though the books are examined and any improper charge would, of course, be reported to the Lord Chancellor. Where by arrangement the High Bailiff pays over part of the fees to the County Courts Department, the County Court Examiner checks the receipts to see that the proper amount is paid over.

    KEW GARDENS.
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the First Commissioner of Works if he will make arrangements to allow the greenhouses at Kew Gardens to remain open until 6 p.m. on bank holidays as on Sundays, in order that as large a number of people as possible might have an opportunity of seeing the flowers and shrubs on exhibition in these places?
    Major BARNSTON (Comptroller of the Household): I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture. My right hon. Friend will be glad to make the arrangements suggested by the hon. Member.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    DUMPED AMMUNITION (BRITISH WATERS).
    Sir EDWIN STOCKTONasked the Under-Secretary of State for War the portions of waters round the British coasts where T.N.T. and other explosive refuse is being dumped; and whether there have been any complaints of the practice?
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: Considerable quantities of waste ammunition have been dumped since the War in areas settled by the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in consultation with the War Office and other Departments concerned. The principal areas in proximity to the British Isles which have been used for dumping within the last 12 months are designated by the following central points:

    Between the Isle of Man and Anglesey, 53º32N., 4º50W.

    In the Channel near the Hurd Deep at 49º50N., 2º20W.

    In the Bristol Channel, 51º32N., 4º50W.

    453
    Minor quantities have been dumped at a point on the Goodwin Sands and off Portsmouth and Plymouth. All areas have been carefully selected with a view to avoiding interference with fishing operations or navigation and danger to fishermen. Early in 1920 dumping took place in the Black Deep in the Thames Estuary. Complaints were received from the Oyster Merchants' and Shellfish Planters' Association that this dumping had caused injury to oyster beds, but, after the fullest examination, the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries have come to the conclusion that these complaints are ill-founded. No dumping has taken place in the Thames Estuary since 1920. A few minor complaints as to the washing ashore of dumped material and as to damage to nets have also been received and dealt with. All possible steps are taken to ensure that all dumped material shall remain on the bottom, where it is dumped.

    MILITARY ACCOUNTANTS.
    Mr. MOSLEYasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Army Council has at present under consideration any proposals for economies to be effected as regards the Corps of Military Accountants; and whether they are considering the retention of this body in its present form?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Gwynne): Economies are constantly being effected in this corps as opportunity arises, and its cost has been reduced by 45 per cent. since 1921–22. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Sir A. Holbrook).
    Lieut.-Colonel HODGE: Will the hon. Gentleman kindly say whether or not it has yet been decided to amalgamate this body, the Corps of Military Accountants, with the Royal Army Pay Corps?
    Mr. GWYNNE: If the hon. and gallant Member will read the answer I gave yesterday, he will see that no decision has yet been come to.

    PRE-WAR PENSIONERS.
    Sir KINGSLEY WOODasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he
    454
    is aware that the pre-War re-enlisted pensioner whose pension has been reassessed under Article 1030 (a), Royal Warrant, 1922, and whose disability element is assessed at the minimum of 6s. 6d. per week, as laid down in this article, is subjected to a still further reduction of this amount by 50 per cent., and granted 3s. 3d. per week only: whether there is any regulation authorising such reduction; and if he will see that this matter is readjusted?
    Mr. GWYNNE: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on the 6th July, on this very point.
    Sir K. WOOD: Can the hon. Gentle-man do anything in those very unfortunate cases where a man in work is receiving less remuneration than another man and his family who have applied to the guardians.
    Mr. GWYNNE: If the hon. Gentleman will read my reply of 6th July, he will see that I answered the question very fully, and that my Department must act on the definite rules laid down in the Army Order.

    MILITARY STRENGTH (GREAT POWERS).
    Mr. COLLISONasked the Under-Secretary of State for War the number of men under arms in Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and the United States of America in the years 1913 and 1922?
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: The figures of men under arms for 1913 and 1922, respectively, are as follow:

    1913

    1922

    Great Britain

    106,514

    80,919

    France

    666,743

    450,859

    Germany

    836,000

    100,000

    Russia

    1,300,000

    Varying between 900,000 and 1,300,000

    United States of America

    86,500

    137,000

    Mr. J. DAVISON: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman state the cost to each nation and the maintenance of these men?
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: I shall have to have notice of that question.
    Lieut.-Colonel NALL: Is the House to understand that the only important Power which has actually increased its armed forces is the United States?
    Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS: That is so.
    HON. MEMBERS: What about Russia?

  EDUCATION.

    SECONDARY SCHOOLS.
    Mr. WEBBasked the President of the Board of Education whether he can state, approximately, for the years 1913 and 1922, respectively, the total number of boys and of girls on the roll of secondary schools in England and Wales,

    ENGLAND AND WALES.

    SECONDARY SCHOOLS ON THE GRANT LIST.

    Number of Full-time Pupils.

    1st October.

    Schools provided or aided by Local Education Authorities.

    Other Schools.

    Total.

    Boys.

    Girls.

    Boys.

    Girls.

    1913

    …

    …

    89,621

    73,187

    10,376

    14,463

    187,647

    1922

    …

    …

    176,611

    161,158

    10,744

    15,731

    364,244

    Approximate number of boys and girls (Free-placers and other pupils), respectively, in schools provided or aided by Local Education Authorities.
    NOTE.—A. Free Place Pupils are pupils entering from Public Elementary Schools with free places awarded under the conditions of Article 20 and the Appendix to the Regulations for Secondary Schools.
    B. Other Pupils are mainly fee-paying, but include a small number (about 4 per cent.) who pay no fees though they are not "Free Place" pupils within the meaning of Article 20.

    1st October.

    Free Place Pupils.

    Other Pupils.

    Total.

    Boys.

    Girls.

    Boys.

    Girls.

    1913

    …

    …

    28,787

    27,156

    60,834

    46,031

    162,808

    1922

    …

    …

    61,097

    63,000

    115,514

    98,158

    337,769

    TEACHERS' SUPERANNUATION.
    Mr. W. GRAHAMasked the President of the Board of Education whether he can state when the Report of Lord Emmott's Committee dealing with questions affecting the superannuation of teachers will be issued?
    456
    whether provided by local education authorities or aided by them, and also in the other secondary schools officially recognised by the Ministry of Education; and what were the total numbers of boys and girls, respectively, in the years referred to who were in attendance at the publicly provided or aided secondary schools as scholars or free-placers on the one hand and as fee-payers on the other?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY of HEALTH (Lord Eustace Percy): As the answer contains a number of figures, my right hon. Friend will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL RBPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    Lord E. PERCY: My right hon. Friend is not in a position to make any statement.
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: Cannot even an approximate date be suggested for the issue of this Report, in view of the very long Recess?
    Lord E. PERCY: I am afraid my right hon. Friend really is not in a position to state, even approximately, when the proceedings of this Committee will terminate.

    ELEMENTARY SCHOOL (BROMLEY-BY-BOW).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the elementary day school belonging to the London County Council at High Street, Bromley-by-Bow, was condemned as unfit for use as a school some years before the War; that this school is one of the oldest in the County of London and is constantly flooded during heavy rainfalls; that the London County Council has acquired another site on which to build a new school, the houses on which are in a very dilapidated condition, some of them having fallen into ruins; and will he, in order that a proper school might be provided for the children of this neighbourhood, bring pressure to bear upon the London County Council immediately to take the necessary steps for providing a new school, especially in view of the fact that the present building is not only inadequate and insanitary, but that there is in the district a very large number of unemployed in receipt of unemployment pay and out-door relief who could be much better employed in erecting the new school?
    Lord E. PERCY: The premises of this school have never been formally condemned by the Board. In view, however, of their old-fashioned character and their inconvenient situation, the London County Council decided in 1912 to provide another school upon a new site. Owing to the War the building of the new school has not been proceeded with, but my right hon. Friend understands that a site for it is now in process of being purchased. He has no information bearing out the statement as to the flooding and the insanitary nature of the present premises. My right hon. Friend is, however, making further inquiry.
    Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Noble Lord if he will inform his right hon. Friend that there is no suggestion in the question that the Board have condemned the school? The London County Council condemned the school when I was a member of that body.

    DENTAL TREATMENT.
    Mr. FRANK LEEasked the President of the Board of Education whether he receives any Returns showing the extent of school dental work undertaken by local education authorities; and, if so, whether he will issue a summary of the latest Returns for the information of the House, and/or instruct the Chief Medical Officer of his Department to include a complete summary in his next Annual Report?
    Lord E. PERCY: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Chief Medical Officer of the Board proposes to include such a summary in the forthcoming issue of his Annual Report.

    LAND CULTIVATION, HAMPSHIRE.
    Mr. DUNCANasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that 30 agricultural workers are now without regular employment who were previously employed on 1,400 acres of land that has gone out of cultivation in the parishes of Barton Stacey and Wonston, in Hampshire; and whether he will take steps to introduce a Bill that will restore the powers of agricultural committees to enforce good husbandry and thus help to protect both workmen and farmers from what is a danger to both?
    Major BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. There is no doubt that the non-cultivation of the land in question has had the effect described. The Government are not prepared, however, to introduce legislation of the nature suggested.
    Mr. DUNCANasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that 1,400 acres of land in the parishes of Barton Stacey and Wonston, in Hampshire, have during the past two years gone out of cultivation; that last year his Department allowed the Hampshire County Council to cut the weeds on this land at a cost of £214 6s.; that the money so spent has not yet been paid by this landowner; that the weeds have again become a real danger to the surrounding farms; and will he state what action he proposes to take in this matter?
    Major BARNSTON: I have been asked to reply. The facts are as stated. The matter is in the hands of the county agricultural committee, by whom notices are being served on the occupier of the land requiring him to destroy the weeds. The committee are also taking steps to recover the money spent last year.

    LILA MILL COMPANY, SHAW.
    Sir WILFRED SUGDENasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state when he hopes to pass the answer to the War Compensation Court on the claim of the Lila Mill Company, Shaw, and also other companies; if he is aware that such Court is willing to adjudicate upon such claims; and that the delay is causing extreme hardship in the districts where the mills are situate?
    Captain KING (Lord of the Treasury): The claims made in. these cases were of such a nature as to call for considerable and detailed investigation, which is now nearly complete. It is hoped that the cases will be heard soon after the Court re-assembles.

  POST OFFICE.

    SUPERANNUATION (MR. G. W. GARNEE).
    Mr. W. GREENWOODasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that Mr. G. W. Garner, of 4, Bombay Road, Edgeley Fold, Stockport, is suffering a diminution in his superannuation owing to a Departmental delay in his retirement being authorised; and, as this delay was entirely the fault of the Department and not of Mr. Garner, will he take steps to ensure that the matter is put in order and the retirement authorised as from 13th February, 1922?
    Captain KING rose to reply on behalf of the Postmaster- General.
    Captain W. BENN: On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the practice—which has become a practice—of the Postmaster-General not to attend in his place to answer questions? May I ask whether there is any way in which you or the House can bring him to attend to this important part of his duties?
    Mr. MOSLEY: Can the Press Gallery be searched for the Postmaster-General?
    Captain KING: May I point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Postmaster-General is always in his place on Tuesdays—his regular day? May I also remind him of the fact that the Postmaster-General, being a Cabinet Minister, has many additional duties, besides those covered by his predecessor, and also that he has no Assistant Postmaster-General, as his predecessor had?
    Captain BENN: On a point of Order. May I ask you, Sir, whether you concur in the view of the Under-Secretary that Ministers are bound to attend here on only one specified day in the week?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not take that view.
    Captain KING: My right hon. Friend has already explained the circumstances of the case by letter to the hon. Member. This officer was not certified by the chief medical officer to be permanently incapacitated until the 23rd February, 1922, and it is not possible to bring him within the scope of the former Regulations which were withdrawn on the 20th of that month.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: Is it not a fact that it was absolutely through the delay of the Department that this was not certified, and that it was through no fault whatever of this man?
    Captain KING: I did not gather that from the answer, but I will ask my right hon. Friend.

    SORTERSHIPS (EXAMINATION).
    Mr. ROBERT MORRISONasked the Postmaster-General what was the actual cost to his Department of the recent examination when, in order to fill five vacancies for sorterships, 1,600 candidates were invited to sit at a fee of 10s. each?
    Captain KING: The limited competition held in March last for appointments as sorter in London and sorting clerk and telegraphist (postal) in the provinces was, in normal course, conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners without direct cost to the Post Office. Some expense, which I am unable to estimate, would be incurred by the Post Office in cases where it was necessary to provide for the candidates' normal duties during their absence at the examination. The total number of

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    candidates who sat for the competition in London was 902. A nominal number of appointments as sorter, namely, five for each of the two London sections of the Competition, was offered as the ultimate requirements of the work are uncertain; but the competition will be drawn upon for at least 12 months and it should not be assumed that the actual number of appointments will not be greater.

    SALFORD.
    Mr. TILLETTasked the Postmaster-General whether he has personally considered the claims of the County Borough of Salford with reference to the addressing of letters; and is he aware that it has been suggested that all letters addressed to Salford shall first be sent to Salford, Lancashire, a county borough of a quarter of a million inhabitants, and not to the small villages bearing a similar name?
    Captain KING: My right hon. Friend has received representations from the Salford Town Council on this question, and has given instructions that letters addressed simply "Salford" are to be sent to Salford, Manchester, unless posted in the immediate neighbourhood of one of the other Salfords. These instructions merely confirm the existing practice.
    Mr. W. GREENWOOD: Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman say Salford, Manchester, or Salford, Lancashire?
    Captain KING: Salford, Manchester.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: How many Salfords are there?

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    OIL-BEARING COAL (SCOTLAND).
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary for Mines whether, from the investigations made during the War by the Government in regard to non-bituminous oil-bearing coal in Scotland, the information is such that the Government would recommend the working of such coals for oil production?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Lieut. Colonel Lane-Fox): I have no information which would justify me in recommending the working of such coal for the purpose of oil production.
    Mr. HARDIE: Arising out of that answer, may I ask if the Minister himself has read the information which was obtained during the War by investigation by his Department?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: No, I have not.
    Mr. HARDIE: May I ask if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will read it?

    MINES (FLOODING).
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the recent pit flooding, he has issued a note to owners of mines to take special precautions when mining coal towards old workings in which water or gas may be present?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: I do not think that a general circular to owners in every district on this subject is necessary But I am having careful inquiry made into the mining conditions in South Staffordshire with a view to considering what steps can be taken to guard against a recurrence of such accidents.
    Mr. HARDIE: Is the Secretary for Mines not yet aware that when a thing like that happens, it is likely to happen again; and without waiting, and consulting and going through all kinds of formalities, will he not save life by sending out notices that these precautions must be taken?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: Yes, Sir, I am considering taking steps as regards the districts where the question arises—
    Mr. HARDIE: It should be in all districts.
    HON. MEMBERS: Order‡
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: If the hon. Member does not wish to hear my answer I shall not give it. In the districts where this condition prevails, I am considering the sending out of circulars such as the hon. Member suggests.

    CONSIGNMENTS SHORT.
    Mr. JOHN DAVISONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any complaints that merchants purchasing quantities of coal for abroad systematically find the consignments to be as much as 3 per cent. short, and are unable to get any redress from

    463
    the colliery owners, the coal exporters, the shipowners who provide the boat, the captain of the boat who is responsible for the safe delivery of the cargo, or the insurance company who have insured it; and whether steps can and will be taken to stop this practice of short consignments?
    Lieut.-Colonel LANE-FOX: No, Sir; I have not received any complaints of this sort.

    NEWFOUNDLAND POWER AND PAPER COMPANY, LIMITED.
    The following Questions stood on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Richmond Division:
    Mr. BECKERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department (1) if his attention has been called to the capital of the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company, Limited, which is stated to be 21,000,000 dollars, all of which has been issued; what amount has been issued for cash; what other consideration, if any, has passed to make up the balance of this capital; has any money been paid to promoters or has any provision been made in the new company for such payments; has the Newfoundland portion of the loan been underwritten by responsible persons; who will benefit when the debenture stock is paid off; if this issue is not successfully floated, whether the Government will withdraw their guarantee;
    (2) if the issue of 4½ per cent. A mortgage debenture stock of the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company, Limited, received his sanction; can he state what are the past trading results of this company; will he state, as this is a Government guaranteed stock, who are the directors of this company; has any business been conducted since 1915; and, if so, with what results?
    Mr. BECKER: I have been asked to postpone questions 93 and 96 until to-morrow. While doing so, would I be in order in asking if the failure of the issue of this company has anything to do with the fall of the administration of Sir Richard Squires in Newfoundland?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would prefer to see that question on the Paper.

    EMPIRE SETTLEMENT.
    Sir WILLIAM COTTSasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what has been the total amount of State-aided emigration from Great Britain in 1923 up to the most recent date possible?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The total number of persons who have received State aid for the purposes of emigration during the six months ended the 30th June last is 18,823.
    Sir W. COTTSasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what was the total expenditure under the Empire Settlement Act during the past financial year and how much it is proposed to expend during the current year?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The actual expenditure in the financial year 1922–23 was £35,463 15s. 8d., and, as shown in the Estimates (Class V, 3), the anticipated expenditure for the current financial year is £1,159,100. The Empire Settlement Act was not passed until the 31st May, 1922, and some time necessarily elapsed before schemes under the Act could be brought into operation.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Has any report yet been received from the Empire settlement delegation with regard to the progress of settlement?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: From the delegation which went to Australia?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Yes.
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Several letters have been received in the matter, but I have not as yet received what would be called a formal report.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the hon. Gentleman consult with the Prime Minister as to the advisability of publishing these reports, in view of the disquieting rumours—many of them unfounded—which prevail at present in this country?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Certainly, that will be taken into consideration. We shall publish as much information as we can when we can.

    DEATH SENTENCE (ALEXANDER CAMPBELL MASON).
    Mr. KIRKWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the new facts which are coming to light regarding the case of Alexander Campbell Mason, now under sentence of death for the murder of a London taxi-cab driver; if he is aware that Mason received a letter inviting him to come to London for a particular job; that that letter was not produced at the trial but, on the contrary, the sender of the letter was a witness against Mason, and gave evidence which is in some vital respects contradictory to the terms of the letter; and if, under these circumstances, he will advise a postponement of sentence and a further inquiry into the facts of this case?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridge-man): The prisoner has applied to the Court of Criminal Appeal for leave to appeal against his conviction, and I must, therefore, decline to discuss the case.

    CANALS, LONDON (DROWNING CASES).
    Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary how many children and young persons have been drowned in the Duckets and Regents Canals during the months of May, June, and July this year, especially in those parts of the canals which pass through the parishes of Hackney, Bow, Bromley, and Poplar; and whether it is the intention of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis to take steps to make better provision for the prevention of loss of life by drowning?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that four boys have lost their lives by drowning in the months in question. The canals, being private property, are not patrolled by the police. It is no doubt a matter of great difficulty to prevent children trespassing on the canal company's property, but it is a matter for the company to take any measures that are reasonably practicable for that purpose.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many places the fences have broken down, leaving
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    spaces through which children can get, and that there is very great indignation in the district because of the facility with which children can trespass; and will he consider getting power for the police to deal with the matter? This is a very old story.
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I know it has been a grievance for many years, and I regret it has not been possible to get anything done. I do not know if I have any power in the matter, but I will look into it.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the necessity of bringing in a short Bill giving him the powers required to deal with the matter, as it is agreed that at present he has not the powers and that he should have them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech‡"] It is all very well, but little children lose their lives in this way. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these deaths by drowning have been going on for years; and, surely, all hon. Members will want to ensure the protection of children?
    Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I am quite aware that this is a very old-standing grievance. I have known of it myself for years and years. I will certainly consider what can be done.

    GERMAN REPARATIONS (RECOVERY) ACT.
    Mr. F. GRAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can inform the House of the amount received by the Revenue under the German Reparations (Recovery) Act, 1921, to date, and the proportion of this represented by penal and other duty paid by the British importer or his customers without any recovery from Germany?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir W. Joynson-Hicks):The total amount collected by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under the provisions of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act up to the 30th June last inclusive was £13,264,282. As regards the second part of the question, no information is available, but my right hon. Friend is not aware of any reason why the payments made by the British importer should not be recovered by deduction from the price paid to the German supplier in accordance with the pro-

    467
    cedure contemplated by the Act, and I have no ground for supposing that this procedure is not being generally followed.
    Mr. GRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that where the invoice price is more than 74 per cent. of the cost the British importer is called upon to pay 35 per cent., because he does not recover from Germany?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: As I say, I think he can recover, but if the hon. Member will send me details of any case he has in mind, I will look into them.

    GOLD (UNITED STATES).
    Mr. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the percentage of the gold of the world held toy the United States of America?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: From the available statistics (which cannot be re garded as anything more than approximate) it appears that about 45 per cent. of the world's monetary stock of gold is held in the United States.

    EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
    Mr. WISEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of Excess Profits Duty collected since 1st April and the amount claimed since 1st April?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The total receipt of Excess Profits Duty (including Munitions Levy) in Great Britain and Northern Ireland during the period from 1st April to 14th July, 1923, was about £8,870,000. Repayments made during the same period amounted to £7,940,000.
    Mr. H. H. SPENCER: Does not the question relate, not to the amount repaid, but to the amount the repayment of which has been claimed?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have given the amount repaid, but I am not quite sure as to the amount claimed.
    Mr. SPENCER: Is it not a very different thing, claiming money back and getting it back?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is.

    CANADA (BRITISH HARVESTERS).
    Mr. MUIRasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that employment is being offered by the Canadian Government to 52,000 men for harvest work; that 30 days' work is guaranteed at 16s. per day, with free board and lodging; that a reduced fare of £12 to Canada is being offered toy steamship companies, but that the men will have to pay the full fare coming home; and, seeing that their earnings in 30 days will not be sufficient to pay their fares out and back, will he make representations to have the guaranteed period increased to two months?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have seen the announcement referred to The guarantee to work for 30 days is one which is given to the shipping companies toy intending harvest workers in order to obtain the reduced fare which is approximately £16 return. Harvest operations in Canada usually last from two to three months. In previous years most of the men required have been obtained from Eastern Canada and the States; it is not expected therefore that more than a few hundred will proceed from this country. I may say that notice of this question has been sent to the Canadian immigration authorities here.

    SMYRNA-AIDIN RAILWAY.
    Mr. GRATTAN DOYLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there is any prospect of securing payment by the Greek Government of the sums owing by them to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway for services rendered during the Greek occupation of Asia Minor; and what steps His Majesty's Government are now taking in the matter?
    Mr. McNEILL: Yes, Sir. The British Charge d' Affaires at Athens was informed at the end of May last by the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs of its endeavours to secure at an early date a settlement of the claim of the Smyrna-Aidin Railway Company for services rendered during the Greek occupation of Asia Minor. A letter to this effect was sent to the company on the 18th ultimo.
    Mr. DOYLEasked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether

    469
    he is aware that the Greeks committed serious damage to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway during their occupation and evacuation of Asia Minor; and whether arrangements have been made during the Conference at Lausanne for the payment of due compensation to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway for all damage committed by the Greeks?
    Mr. McNEILL: It is understood that a certain amount of damage was caused to the Smyrna-Aidin Railway during the Greek occupation and evacuation of Asia Minor. A draft Agreement between Greece on the one hand and Great Britain, France, and Italy on the other has been under consideration at Lausanne, providing inter alia for the payment by the Greek Government of compensation for damages affecting Allied interests, and resulting from acts of the Greek armies or administrations subsequent to 1st June, 1921, in zones other than the firing line.

    MARKET TOLLS.
    Brigadier-General SPEARSasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the remarks of Lord Linlithgow's Committee as to market tolls; and what action, if any, he intends taking in the matter?
    Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am in communication with the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries on this matter.

    ENEMY DEBTS (BRITISH CLEARING HOUSE).
    Sir CYRIL COBBasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in order to reduce the expenses falling upon British creditors, he will reduce, as from 2nd August next, the staff of the British Clearing House for Enemy Debts, Cornwall House, by 10 per cent. and again by 10 per cent. in November next, or, failing this, will he appoint a Committee from the Establishment Department of the Treasury to examine the staffing and methods at Cornwall House?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Viscount Wolmer): I doubt whether the first proposal of my hon. Friend would have the effect desired. He will no doubt realise
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    that the Clearing Office have a definite task to accomplish, and that the most economical course is to get through that task as promptly as possible, rather than to prolong it by undue depletions of staff. As to the second proposal, the staffing and organisation of the Clearing Office are already constantly under review by the Establishment Departments of the Treasury and the Board of Trade.

    AIR SERVICE, LONDON AND PRAGUE.
    Mr. TILLETTasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is acquainted with the proposed air service between London and Prague which is to be instituted by the Instone Line; and whether he intends to take steps to arrange for a representative of the Ministry to accompany the plane on its first journey and report upon the same in the interest of aviation generally and to help in the consideration of what form of assistance shall be rendered by the State to ventures of this character?
    Major BARNSTON (for Sir Samuel Hoare): As regards the first part of the question, preliminary negotiations are now in progress with the Czechslovak authorities for the extension of the London-Cologne air service to Prague.
    As regards the second part, the Director of Civil Aviation undertook a flight to Prague on the 13th October last in order to acquaint himself with the route and to discuss with the Czechslovak authorities the form of assistance to be rendered by the respective States to such an undertaking. All possible assistance to further the establishment of the service will be afforded by the Air Ministry.
    Sir H. BRITTA1N: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman Say in how many hours it is proposed to make this journey?
    Major BARNSTON: No, Sir; I regret I cannot say that without notice.

    TEMPORARY PENSIONS.
    Mr. WALSHasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the large number of cases of men in receipt of temporary pensions consequent upon a

    471
    disability percentage varying from 30 to 20 per cent., who have had by final award their disablement percentage reduced to a percentage from 19 to 15 per cent.; whether he is aware that such award has the effect of at once reducing the amount of pension and later of stopping it altogether; whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction created by such decisions; and whether in such cases, where the border line of disablement percentage is purely a question of opinion and not of fact, he will cause specific data, upon which the decision is based, to be supplied to the recipient before any reduction is made in the amount of pension?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Captain Craig): The rate of disablement is in all cases the result of the judgment of the medical board as formed upon the clinical facts and circumstances of the case before them. In a case where a medical board consider that the degree of disablement involved by a minor disability is such as to justify, not a continuing pension but a gratuity or an allowance for a terminable period, the man concerned has in all cases the right of appeal to one of the independent Appeal Tribunals which deal with assessment. If he exercises his right he is furnished before the hearing of the case with a full précis of his medical history as known to the Ministry, including clinical details of the case as seen by the several medical boards which have from time to time examined him, and as the result of which the assessment arrived at in each case has been given. It is also open to the man to bring before the Appeal Tribunal such other evidence as he may desire.

    JOINT INDUSTKIAL COUNCILS.
    Mr. JOHN DAVISONasked the Minister of Labour whether, seeing that it is the policy of his Department to encourage the establishment of Joint Industrial Councils and to help to maintain those already formed, he will make representations to the Hammersmith Borough Council with a view to inducing that body to refrain from severing its connection with the National Industrial Council for the electrical supply industry?
    Sir M. BARLOW: It is the policy of my Department to encourage the establishment of Joint Industrial Councils in suitable cases and to help to maintain those already formed. The councils are, of course, voluntary bodies, and I have no authority to press particular employers to become or to remain members.

POST OFFICE AND NEWSPAPER PRESS.
The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): Mr. Speaker, with your leave, and if the. House will allow me, I want to take the earliest opportunity of making a statement to the House.
My attention has been called to certain paragraphs containing vulgar and stupid personal puffs, which were sent to the Press Gallery of the House of Commons yesterday. I find, on inquiry, that they were written and sent by an officer of the Post Office. They were sent without my knowledge or authority. I never saw them until I noticed them in the newspapers this morning.
I authorised the sending of copies of my Estimates speech to the Press, in the usual way, but nothing else. I am taking steps to prevent any recurrence, and nothing will be sent out in future from the General Post Office to the Press, except that which is authenticated by the signature of the Secretary or a responsible official.
Mr. LANSBURY: Does not the Prime Minister consider that the time has arrived when Publicity Departments within the various Departments of the State should be abolished? They were a war-time proposal.
The PRIME MINISTER: It is not a question of publicity here.
Mr. LANSBURY: But is the right hon Gentleman aware that all the Pressmen in the Gallery, or at least half-a-dozen of them whom I met last night, considered that that did come from what is known as the Publicity Department in the Post Office? They came to me about that statement.
Mr. PRINGLE: I desire to give notice that I will raise this matter, together

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with the question of other Publicity Departments, on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered in Committee of Supply, and that Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven o'clock."—[The Prime Minister.]
Mr. PRINGLE: On a point of Order. There are certain New Services, upon which the Committee should have an opportunity of giving a Vote. Will the Vote for these New Services be given separately from the Classes?
Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot answer that on the spur of the moment. Perhaps the hon. Member will consult the Chairman of Ways and Means.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a rule—I do not know that it is an Order of the House, but is it not an accepted principle—that New Services
shall in any case be debated in the House, or that an opportunity shall be given for a Debate? I think that has been ruled in the last Parliament, and may I ask your guidance on that question, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. SPEAKER: These Services were submitted for consideration last week. They have complied with the Standing Order in that respect.
Captain BENN: Can you give any guidance, Sir, as to the interpretation of the said Standing Order, which has more than once been put to the Chair? Do you consider that, when the Standing Order says that these New Services must be submitted to the Committee of Supply more than three days before the close of the Committee, that Standing Order is complied with when a Paper is published and no Debate whatever takes place?
Mr. SPEAKER: I remember that question being put for about 23 years, and I do not think I am in a position to change the answer which my predecessors have given to it.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 149.

Division No.309.]

AYES

3.50 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey,

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Butt, Sir Alfred

Fawkes, Major F. H.

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Cadogan, Major Edward

Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

Apsley, Lord

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Flanagan, W.H.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

Cautley, Henry Strother

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Fredrick W.

Cayzer, Sir C.(Chester, City)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Astor, Viscountess

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn(Aston)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

Furness, G. J.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)

Garland, C. S.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Chapman, Sir S.

Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

Clarry, Reginald George

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Barnett, Major Richard W.

Clayton, G. C.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Barnston, Major Harry

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Becker, Harry

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Gretton, Colonel John

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Cope, Major William

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff. South)

Halstead, Major D.

Berry, Sir George

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

Betterton, Henry B.

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Birchall, Major J. Dearman

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

Harvey, Major S. E.

Blades, Sir George Rowland

Curzon, Captain Viscount

Hay Major T. W. (Norfolk, South),

Blundell, F. N.

Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

Henn, Sir Sydney H.

Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

Brass, Captain W.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Hewett, Sir J. P.

Brassey, Sir Leonard

Edmondson, Major A. J.

Hiley, Sir Ernest

Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

Ednam, Viscount

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark)

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

Ellis, R. G.

Hood, Sir Joseph

Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

Hopkins, John W. W.

Bruford, R.

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley'

Buckingham, Sir H.

Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.).

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

Hughes, Collingwood

Butcher, Sir John George

Falcon, Captain Michael

Hume, G. H.

Hurd, Percy A.

Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

Hurst, Gerald B.

Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove, N.)

Nicholson, William G.(Petersfield)

Skelton, A. N.

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry

Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

O'Neill, t. Hon. Hugh

Stanley, Lord

King, Capt. Henry Douglas

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Parker, Owen (Kettering)

Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

Lamb, J. Q.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

Penny, Frederick George

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.

Lever, Sir Arthur L.

Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip

Perkins, Colonel E. K.

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Peto, Basil E.

Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Lorden, John William

Pielou, D. P.

Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

Lorimer, H.D.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Thomson, F. C.(Aberdeen, South)

Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

Privet, F. J.

Titchfield, Marquess of

Lumley, L. R.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Raine, W.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

Rankin, Captain James Stuart

Wallace, Captain E.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Makins, Brigadier-General E.

Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Rees, Sir Beddoe

Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

Margesson, H. D. R.

Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

Remnant, Sir James

White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Mercer, Colonel H.

Reynolds, W. G. W.

Wilson, Col. M. J.(Richmond)

Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

Winterton, Earl

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Robertson-Despencer, Major(Islgtn, W)

Wise, Frederick

Molloy, Major L. G. S.

Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

Wolmer, Viscount

Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Morning, Captain Algernon H.

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L..

Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Murchison, C. K.

Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Celonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

Nall, Major Joseph

Sandon, Lord

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

NOES.

Adams, D.

Greenall, T.

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

March, S.

Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)

Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro'

Grundy, T. W.

Middleton, G.

Ammon, Charles George

Guthrie, Thomas Maule

Millar, J. D.

Asquith, t. Hon. Herbert Henry

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Morel, E. D.

Attlee, C. R.

Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Morris, Harold

Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Barnes, A.

Hancock, John George

Mosley, Oswald

Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

Harbord, Arthur

Muir, John W.

Batey, Joseph

Hardie, George D.

Murnin, H.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

Berkeley, Captain Reginald

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

Bonwick, A.

Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

Newbold, J. T. W.

Brotherton, J.

Herriotts, J.

Oliver, George Harold

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hill, A.

Paling, W.

Buckle, J.

Hinds, John

Parker, H. (Hanley)

Burgess, S.

Hirst, G. H.

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

Hodge, t. Hon. John

Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

Ponsonby, Arthur

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Hogge, James Myles

Potts, John S.

Cape, Thomas

Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

Pringle, W. M. R.

Chapple, W. A.

Irving, Dan

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Charleton, H. C.

Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

Ritson, J.

Clarke, Sir E. C.

John, William (Rhondda, West)

Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

Collison, Levi

Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Cowan, D. M.(Scottish Universities)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Royce, William Stapleton

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Salter. Dr. A.

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

Scrymgeour, E

Dudgeon, Major C. R.

Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

Sexton, James

Duncan, C.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Dunnico, H.

Kenyon, Barnet

Shinwell, Emanuel

Edmonds, G.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lassbury, George

Simpson, J. Hope

Emlyn-Jones, J. E.(Dorset, N.)

Lawson, John James

Smith, T. (Pontefract)

Falconer, J.

Leach, W.

Snowden, Philip

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Lee, F.

Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

Foot, Isaac

Linfield, F. C.

Spoor, B. G.

Gardiner, James

Lowth, T.

Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Lunn, William

Sullivan, J.

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

M'Entee, V. L.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Gray, Frank (Oxford)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

476

477

Tout, W. J.

Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

Wilson, C. H.(Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Trevelyan, C. P.

Weir, L. M.

Wintringham, Margaret

Twist, H.

Westwood, J.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Wallhead, Richard C.

White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

Wright, W.

Warne, G. H.

Whiteley, W.

Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.

Watts Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly).

Webb, Sidney

Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

NAVY AND ARMY CANTEENS.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE D.
  Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D (during the consideration of the Summary Jurisdiction (Separation and Maintenance) Bill): Mrs. Wintringham.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MACCLESFIELD CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, Intoxicating Liquor (Sale to Persons under Eighteen) Bill, without Amendment.
  Agricultural Credits Bill, with Amendments.
  Amendments to,
  West Gloucestershire Water Bill [Lords],
  Oldham and Rochdale Corporations Water Bill [Lords].
  Plymouth Corporation Bill [Lords].

AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 205.]

MATRIMONIAL CAUSES (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL (CHANGED TO "JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL").
Reported, with Amendments [Title amended], from the Select Committee, with Special Report and Minutes of Evidence.
Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 118.]
Bill, as amended, re-committed to a Committee of the Whole' House for Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 206.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  [19TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

CLASS II.

  COLONIAL OFFICE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £101,329, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies."—[Note: £62,000 has been voted on account.']
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The introduction of the Colonial Estimates is rightly regarded as the one opportunity in the year for reviewing the administration during the preceding year of the non-self-governing portions of the Empire for the carrying on of which the Colonial Office is responsible to this Parliament. My task is not an easy one, owing to the enormous range of subjects on which I feel it my duty to touch. The outstanding questions of recent days, of course, have been Rhodesia and Kenya, but, in view of the many questions affecting the different portions of the non-self-governing Empire, I propose to deal with the items in geographical order commencing with the West Indies, and followed by West Africa, South Africa, East Africa, Ceylon, the Eastern Colonies, the Middle East, Ireland, and the Imperial Economic Conference. [An HON. MEMBER: "And Palestine?"] The Middle East included Palestine.
  With regard to the West Indies, I would like, first, to welcome the appointment at long last of a Parliamentary Committee of this House and the other House to take an interest in our oldest and most historic colonies. When I was out with my right hon. Friend, who is now President of the Board of Education
  492
  (Mr. Edward Wood), we learned that these ancient colonies, which we govern by officials and other representatives, had felt from time to time that their interests for which we are responsible did not receive the attention that they should receive from us. That Committee, I am sure, will be useful. During the past year the necessary steps have been taken to carry out the recommendations of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education as the result of our tour with regard to constitutional reform, and we are now ready for the final issue of Letters Patent, etc., in connection with new Constitutions for Grenada, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Trinidad, and Jamaica. The Dominica discussions are still proceeding. Though it was not recommended in the Report, we subsequently decided to introduce an elected element and a franchise for the first time in the island of Dominica.
  During the past year there has also been issued the Report of the Currency Committee, of which I was Chairman. If the West Indian Colonies concur in our proposal and the Treasury here can absorb in the ordinary currency of this country the Imperial silver now in use in the West Indies, it will, if the West Indian Colonies agree among themselves, be possible for them to have their own currency system suited to their traditions and needs, and that currency may give them the nucleus of a fund which may be used for common purposes. The whole thing will depend upon whether Jamaica can fall into line with the Eastern Antilles. With regard to the ever fresh question of the possibility of anything in the nature of federation in the West Indies, it is perfectly clear that the tentative proposals made by my right hon. Friend met with considerable local difficulties, and anything in the direction of progress in that much desired direction must be a plant of slow growth. Though it is most desirable that the public services—the medical service, the police service, and such like—if it can be brought about, should be uniform, that can only be done if we can get the various islands, and especially the islands which can actually see one another across the Straits, to come together and to agree to some tentative form of federation.
  The next important item to which I should like to refer is the opening of

  493
  what was called the West Indian Agricultural College at Trinidad. That agricultural college has now started work, and we have already decided that it should not serve the needs of the West Indian Colonies alone, but that it should become the central tropical agricultural college for the whole of our tropical Empire. We propose to change its name to the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture. The college is not a parochial concern merely controlled by the local Government of Trinidad. It has on its board perhaps the greatest of our British tropical authorities. It v.' run on the lines of private enterprise with the blessing and financial assistance of the Imperial and Colonial Governments. We propose to change its name, and its aim is going to be to provide for the needs of all tropical dependencies and to become the chief centre of agricultural research and for the training of staff.
  I want to say one word about communications. Anybody interested in the West Indies always comes back to shipping and cable communications. There is perhaps a good deal of complaint in the West Indies on that vexed question. Of course, it is very largely a matter of money. We are going on with the new cable. The West Indies now are 'connected with Canada and the United Kingdom by the Halifax-Bermuda cable and the Bermuda-Turks Island-Jamaica cable. This is called the Direct West India Company. It is an all-British cable:. Beyond Jamaica the only communication with the East and West Indian Colonies is by the West India and Panama Telegraph Company. The cables have to go through to Bermuda, down to Jamaica, get on to the cable of the new company and come back eastward again and go down the Lesser Antilles to British Guiana. The cables of the West India and Panama Company are very old, breaks have been frequent, and communications have been totally held up for months at a stretch. We have had a good deal of dissatisfaction in the Colonies and demands for improvement. The financial position of the company is not a good one, and at present the Government subsidy of £26,300 a year provided by the United Kingdom and Canada and the West Indian Colonies alone stands between it and a very serious position.
  494
  I am afraid that there is very little prospect of it being able to raise the necessary new capital for improvement. But the real drawback to this system is that the cable between England and Canada via Jamaica and Trinidad, the Eastern Antilles, and British Guiana goes through foreign territory and can be tapped there. It is desired by everybody who has gone into this question that we should have an all-British cable service to our Eastern Antilles.
  There is another thing. The West India and Panama Company are tied up with the Cuba Submarine Company, and the Cuba Submarine Company have an agreement which cannot be upset, whereby they virtually take a toll from the West Indies in regard to communications with the West Indies on this line. They can either compel the West India and Panama Company to send the messages over the Cuba Company's cable or to pay the Cuba Company the sum which they would have received if the messages had been so sent. His Majesty's Government have been legally advised that they cannot acquire the West India and Panama Company without acquiring these obligations, which is clearly undesirable. In the circumstances, the better course is thought to be the provision of an entirely new cable. Consequently, it is proposed to run a new cable down from Turks Island, where it will connect with the direct West India Company's cable, to Barbados, from Barbados to Trinidad, and from Trinidad to Jamaica. That would provide a quick reliable service, entirely British. The maximum net annual cost would be less by about £6,000 than the present subsidy to the West India and Panama Company. It would be free of the tie-up with the Cuba Submarine Company, and, therefore, when the contract with the West India and Panama Com-comes to an end, as it does in September, 1924, we hope by then that we shall have a new cable in working order and shall be able to take over the Eastern Services.
  Sir COURTENAY WARNER: What is to be the cost of the new cable?:
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I cannot give the exact figure at present. Naturally, negotiations are proceeding with cable companies, but, as I say, the estimated subsidy which will be required will be sub-

  495
  stantially less than those we are now paying the West India and Panama Company.
  Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: Does that mean that the Government are going to use the taxpayers' money to injure a private company?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The taxpayers' money is now being used for this company, which is tied up with this obligation. It is a service which goes through foreign territory. For all those reasons, it has been decided by the British Government to have an all British cable.
  I now pass to West Africa. It is my Noble Friend's intention, if Parliamentary exigencies allow, that I should undertake this winter, in Nigeria, the Gold Coast, and Sierre Leone a similar Colonial mission to that which was taken by my predecessor, the object being to bring the Colonial Office and one or two officials of the Department into touch with the men on the spot, to see what is being done, to receive representations, and to report to the Secretary of State generally upon the various problems that arise in the West African Colonies. We do believe that it is of vast importance, not only that there should be visits to the Dominions from representatives of this Parliament, but that these dependent Colonies should from time to time receive visits from, and should be brought into closer touch with, the Parliamentary chiefs for the time being.
  Nigeria, after all, is our greatest dependency of the non-self-governing portions of the Empire. In point of population, it has become the third constituent member of the Empire. India is first, with its many hundred millions, this island comes next, and Nigeria is third. In West Africa we have seen in the last 20 or 30 years the most remarkable advance in prosperity and in development. I would like, in this connection, to call to mind the romance of the Gold Coast. Less than 40 years ago there was no cocoa in the Gold Coast. In 1920 £10,000,000 worth of cocoa, produced entirely by natives, was exported, mainly to this country. The progress made in the economic capacity of the African natives, under the wise administration which has marked the West
  496
  African Colonies, has been really remarkable. Generally, I believe that that is the first step in their progress to civilisation. The first step is the economic development of the native as a producer on his own account. West Africa shows what remarkable results have been achieved, for the native becomes a valuable producer, and produces the raw material which the whole world wants. When that economic foundation has been laid, then education, sanitation, and all other advances can follow. The difficulties the great majority of the West African Colonies suffer under have been the most violent oscillations, commercial, trade, and otherwise, of recent years. During the War, when communications were difficult, exports fell to a very low figure. Then came a tremendous boom in raw materials—I am speaking of the period after the War—then came again the unprecedented slump. Consequently, the budgeting for the West African Colonies has been a matter of no little anxiety both to the Colonial Office and the local Governments in their respective centres.
  Let me give some figures. In 1918 the exports from the Gold Coast were valued at £2,600,000; in 1920, £12,350,000; in 1921, at £7,000,000. Such world oscillations are bound to be reflected in the working of the Administration. They have, however, come through their difficult period, and I am happy to report that the Gold Coast is flourishing, that Nigeria has weathered the storm and has pulled through with a balance on the right side. On the top of that difficulty came the importation of spirits. Before the War a very large proportion of the revenue of the West African Colonies was derived from the spirit duty. In the pre-War period, 1913, it was over £1,000,000 on the spirit duty. Wisely, after the War, the Powers decided that the time had come to stop that trade in spirits. It meant very serious financial loss in revenue, which was £1,038,000. That in 1919 was turned to £74,000, and in 1921 to £206,000. This re-arrangement meant wiping out a considerable proportion of the revenue. The country is not the sort of place where you can impose or collect an Income Tax, and we were thrown back upon the import duty. The import duties are as high as they possibly can be. They cannot be increased. There-

  497
  fore it has been necessary to put on an export duty. I know there is a feeling amongst the West African people that these duties ought to go. They will go when the revenue can be made good—obviously not before. Every effort is being made reasonably to cut down the ordinary expenditure on administration, and every effort will be made in that direction. Obviously, in countries like these, developments must proceed. They want railways, roads, and communications of all kinds. You cannot starve your economic or education departments without danger. Consequently the position is rather difficult. I may say, in connection with the spirit duties, that since I have been at the Colonial Office we have had some trouble as to the exact definition of what are trade spirits and what are not. We have taken the decision of allowing high grade gins to go in, but only high grade and specified gins.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: In fact which Europeans want?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: It virtually comes to that. They will not be prohibited as trade spirits. I have already referred to the question of the railways. The Gold Coast Government have decided, with the sanction of my Noble Friend, to spend certain of its surplus revenue in building new railways through the cocoa area of the Central Provinces. We are considering whether or not the time has come when private enterprise can participate in the improvement of the transport facilities in the interior of Africa. Hitherto private enterprise has been shy to take up this difficult work, and it has fallen to the Colonial Office to make the initial moves in practically every case. In opening up a new country, especially like that of tropical Africa, you do not get an early return, but my Noble Friend has set up a Private Enterprise Committee, with very wide terms of reference, and he hopes that business men and men of enterprise will come forward with suggestions to help in this matter. The terms of reference are:
  "To consider whether, and if so what, measures could be taken to encourage private enterprise in the development of British Dependencies in East and West tropical Africa, with special reference to existing and projected schemes of transport; and to report to the Secretary of State for the Colonies."
  498
  It is proposed that the right hon. the Earl of Ronaldshay, late Governor of Bengal, shall be chairman; and the other Members who have accepted are my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson, M.P.), the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Manchester (Sir E. Stockton), Sir James Stevenson, Commercial Adviser to the Colonial Office, Mr. C. E. Gunther, and Sir William Mercer. Sir William Ackworth, K.C.S.I., and the right hon. Sir Frederick Lugard, formerly Governor of Nigeria, and Mr. E. R. Peacock have been invited and have not yet replied. I hope the result of their exploration into this matter may be fruitful of result. Much remains to be done in linking up of railways and opening up of the country. Further, in connection with West Africa I have to announce that recently we have had an important conference at the Colonial Office consisting of the African Governors and Colonial Secretaries home on leave—and there have been a good many—together with our educational advisers, as to the future of native education in Africa. We want to avoid making mistakes at this critical stage. We want to explore the experience of the world as to what is the Best and most helpful form and type of education that we can give to the Africans, for the purpose of giving light to New Africa. With that view, we have formed a permanent Committee, and I hope shortly to get a permanent Secretary, to advise on this issue. We were led to this largely as the result of a most extraordinary interesting report issued by Dr. Jesse Jones, who has travelled, not only through the British Colonies, but through French Africa, the Belgian Congo, and the Portuguese Colonies. He has made a most helpful contribution to the subject of African education from the point of view of the native. It is hoped that Dr. Jones may pay a similar visit to the East African Colonies. This Committee consists of Sir Frederick Lugard as chairman, Mr. Oldham, who practically represents all the Protestant Missionary Societies, Sir Michael Sadleir, who has great knowledge of Indian education; the Bishop of Edmundsbury, who was formerly head master of Rugby, and Sir James Currie, director of the Gordon College at Khartoum, who has had ex-

  499
  perience in the Sudan, and at present is doing such valuable work in connection with the Empire Cotton Growing Movement. He knows that side as well as the education side. We hops that the Committee will be able to contribute very materially to the progress of the new educational movement taking place in Africa. I may say that the Governor of the Gold Coast is quite an enthusiast on this particular subject, as he has junior technical and trade classes, boy scouts, and all the rest of it. He has been very successful, and now he also, by the authority of the Secretary of State, has started the first secondary school that ever existed in British West Africa, and that is going forward in a very satisfactory fashion. I may say in this connection that a good deal of development work is being done by the Colonies themselves. It is a fact that in the last three years from November, 1919, to 23rd of March, the British Tropical African Colonies have raised on the London market on their own security no less than £25,000,000 for development work. That is a notable achievement. I hope they will be able to go ahead.
  Passing from West Africa, I hope, as I have said, if Parliamentary exigencies allow, in the coming winter to visit West Africa. The outstanding problem, perhaps, with which I have had to deal personally since I went to the Colonial Office in November has been the winding-up, if I may say so, of the British South Africa Company as an administrative body. Everybody, I think, agrees that we cannot any longer justify the government of vast tracts like South and Central Africa by a company. No doubt but for the War considerable changes would have taken place in the regime, which the Colonial Office in 1914 extended for another 10 years. Since then there has been a round, a cheerless round, of litigation before the Privy Council, followed by Commissions, Committees, assessors, and the like. The last thing I was informed of at the Colonial Office was that the British South Africa Company had deposited a Petition of Right. I do not know exactly what a Petition of Right in this connection means, but I understand that it meant two years' litigation.
  Obviously, the statesmanlike thing in this matter was to try and arrive at
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  an arrangement agreeable to the people of Southern Rhodesia, the British Treasury, and the representatives of the company, and to have some clear policy for the future. The question of Southern Rhodesia had been settled last November. They were given the option of a referendum to decide whether they would go into the Union of South Africa, or start courageously with self-government on their own. By a considerable majority they chose the latter course, and consequently it became an obligation of honour on the part of the Imperial Government to see that they had a chance of making good under the decision which the people of Rhodesia had come to, and which they had been invited to decide. We, therefore, decided that a responsible Government should be set up in Southern Rhodesia at the earliest possible date, and we decided that that date should be the 1st October this year.
  I am glad to say that the new self-governing Colony—because that will be its status in future—has been fortunate in having secured as its first Governor a man who has had great experience in administrative work in England, Sir John Chancellor, and who has previously been the Governor of Mauritius and Trinidad. He leaves this country the first week in September to proclaim the new Constitution and to invite one of the Rhodesian leaders to become the first Prime Minister. His Majesty's Government wish that new Colony every success in the task that now lies before it. It has a fine tradition in connection with native administration and native relations. The task which lies before them of governing 34,000 settlers in a country which embraces a very large territory is no easy one. Our object in Northern Rhodesia was to set up a Government there north of the Zambesi as a separate Colony.
  It was obviously desirable that if the Chartered Company's regime came to an end in Southern Rhodesia it should come to an end in Northern Rhodesia as well. To keep the whole administrative machinery of the company going was obviously not in the interests of Northern Rhodesia, and it would have been resented by the people there and was not welcome to the company, and so we had to endeavour to get the Petition of Right out of the way and further litigation and proposals for litigation. We had to look

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  at the thing as a whole and get an all-over settlement. We managed to get an all-over settlement and I understand that the shareholders of the British South Africa Company, at a meeting held yesterday, unanimously agreed to accept the offer of the Government.
  It would not be right if I did not make quite clear what that involves. Roughly it involves the payment by the taxpayers of this country of a net sum of £1,500,000 to clear up the Rhodesian business, that is to say to clear up the debt we owe to our agents for what they have done during the past years. The sum of £2,300,000 is due back from the people of Southern Rhodesia, that is the new Government of Southern Rhodesia, to be paid on the 1st January in return for the public works and buildings and approximately 50,000,000 acres of un-alienated land, which under the Privy Council judgment would have been locked up in an extremely cumbersome form of administration as a possible and potential source whereby we could pay our debt to our agents.
  Under the Privy Council judgment it has been decided that the British South Africa Company, who have been acting as agents for the Crown, were entitled to the repayment of their administrative deficits. I think it may be looked upon in that way. The British Government is now called upon to pay in one sum what it would have had to pay over a number of years by means of grants-in-aid all over Southern Rhodesia, but we do get certain assets. We get a new Government clothed with new responsibilities which we wish to see made a success with the machinery of the Government and the control of the land, and in Northern Rhodesia we get not only the public works and buildings to start our new Crown Colony Government there, but we also get back whatever rights the British South Africa Company had over the un-alienated land of North-Western Rhodesia. I regard it as being vital to any settlement that the new Government should get control of the policy which has been followed in regard to very large areas, and should be able forthwith, if need be, to set up native reserve commissions or anything of that kind.
  We have not had sufficient time to make the plans, and therefore we could not bring the new Government of
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  Northern Rhodesia into operation on the same date as the new Government of Southern Rhodesia. The new Government of Northern Rhodesia will commence as a new colony on the 1st of April next year. I will not go into the whole of the details of the long discussions which I had to conduct with the company and with various people, or explain to the House how and why we arrived at particular figures and deductions, because that would take much too long. I know that the Chartered Company's shareholders say that we have been very hard on them, but we had to drive as hard a bargain as we could in the interests of the taxpayers, and it is a settlement which will clear out of the way all those litigious questions. We have bought the public works and buildings and the land, and we have paid our debt. The Chartered Company are entitled to the administrative debts. That is the central feature of the whole thing, because these debts have been incurred over a period of years during which the company have been acting as our agents.
  Let me now say a word or two about the British South Africa Company. I do not think that Southern Rhodesia would be getting self-government to-day, or that we could have taken over and started any good administration in Northern Rhodesia had it not been for the work of the British South Africa Company, and for the fact that they raised from the public millions of money on which they have never received one penny of dividend, and have never made one penny of profit. For 30 years or more they have been carrying on as agents of the Crown a great Imperial work, and it would be most unjust to represent this company as having been a profiteering concern. The shares of the company obviously have not increased in value and remain stationary, which is rather a proof that the settlement arrived at is the right one. If we had given too much the shares would have gone up and if we had given too little they would have come down, but they have remained stationary, which to my mind is evidence that we have arrived at a reasonable settlement. The shares of the company are considerably below par and yet they have carried out this great work. I think it would be very wrong if the Minister in making a speech at the termination of this work did not pay his

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  tribute to the British South Africa Company for the work they have done during all those years. I would particularly like to pay a tribute to all the officers, especially the native commissioners who have been trained there, and have worked under an extremely progressive and good native administration.
  Mr. ADAMS: The Under-Secretary says that we obtained control over the unalienated lands. Are there any in possession of native holders?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Very little of them. The Barotse reserve is a small corner of Northern Rhodesia, and the alienated lands there are not very large. The un-alienated lands in North Western Rhodesia are approximately 76,000,000 acres, and the number of natives on those lands is very small. One of the objects of obtaining control of that land is to demark adequately the reserves. In North Eastern Rhodesia the land is regarded as if it were native land, and at any rate we shall have a free hand in regard to it. In North Eastern Rhodesia the white population is extremely small, consisting of about 500 people. There are areas in which the people exist under purely tropical conditions.
  Now I must pass to East Africa. With regard to Tanganyika Territory, there is a special Vote. It is a mandated territory which was formerly a German Colony, and the mere fact that propaganda is still going on in Germany makes it absolutely incumbent upon us to give that vast territory, which in area is larger than Nigeria, and contains a population just over 4,000,000, at least as good and complete an administration as was given by the Germans in that country before the War. We are responsible, not merely to Parliament, in respect of this territory, but I have to go on Tuesday next to Geneva to present the annual report for 1922 of that country which has been received from the Allied Associated Powers in trust.
  The Germans surrendered their rights to the Allied Associated Powers as a whole. We have endeavoured to provide a good administration. I admit it is expensive, and the difficulties have been exceptional and quite enormous. The main central railway was terribly damaged during the War, and we have
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  had great difficulty in putting it in order again. I believe there is a great future for that country. I was there myself only for a short time in 1912, and I do believe that, with proper enterprise and the Government working hand in hand with a good Agricultural Department, there is a great future, particularly for cotton growing in parts of that vast area.
  Let me come immediately to the controversial question of the Voi-Kahé or Voi-Taveta Railway. Let me at once in the presence of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton) stand in a white sheet for being inaccurate, and for not knowing that the major portions of that railway lie on the Kenya side of the frontier rather than on the Tanganyika side, which I stated in answer to a supplementary question the other day. On what grounds did my Noble Friend arrive at the decision that we could not keep open or reconstruct the Voi-Kahé Railway?
  The arguments which we had before us were these. In August, 1914, the situation as regards railways in that neigh bourhood was as follows: There were two parallel lines, one running from Tanga to Moshi on the German side and the other, the Uganda Railway, running from the Port of Mombasa inland to Nairobi and Lake Victoria. The former took the produce of the plantations situated in the Moshi district to the sea. During the War, in order to facilitate the movement of troops from Kenya, a military railway was laid down between the two points where the two lines were nearest together, that is to say, from Voi on the Uganda Railway to Kahé, not far from the Moshi terminus of the German railway. The construction of this military line was rushed through with great rapidity and with the minimum of engineering. Wooden bridges and other temporary structures were put up and considerations of curves and other matters regarded as essential to a permanent line were ignored, as were, of course, all commercial considerations. This link line was about 93 miles in length, and except for some 10 miles was entirely on the British or Kenya side of the boundary.
  After the War the railway became practically derelict, and although very few trains were run on it it had become dangerous for traffic. The temporary structures were in a bad condition—an im-

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  portant bridge had recently been destroyed by a flood—and expenditure quite out of proportion to the traffic had to be incurred to keep the line open. This was an absolute waste of money, and it was agreed that if the link was to be retained very extensive reconditioning would be required, as well as the transfer of its junction from Kahé to Moshi. Estimates presented to my Noble Friend showed that the cost of these works would be £500,000. The question arose, Who was to pay? The suggestion was that this House ought to vote the money, but we could not come down and ask for a Supplementary Vote from this House for a railway to connect two railways which served two districts, one of them being the Uganda railway, which would have an increased volume of traffic and the other the Tanga railway. It was also estimated that the reconditioned line would be run at a net annual loss, at least for some years to come, of about £8,000. Without the link the planters in the Moshi district will have their outlet as before the War at Tanga, but they will not be in direct communication with the Uganda railway. I have here an extract from a letter by a planter which appeared in the Nairobi "Daily Standard" of 3rd May, in which the writer says that he would personally like the line to remain, but from the point of view of revenue "it is a hopeless proposition." As regards local traffic, he odserves:
  "There is absolutely nothing between Voi and Taveta to warrant even the upkeep of a road, much less a railway. In the number of times that the writer has travelled over this line he has never seen a single European passenger or a parcel picked up at intermediate stations. The whole area along the line is very sparsely populated and with the exception of two mission stations the whole area is practically uninhabited."
  In face of that my Noble Friend had no option but to decide to retain the Tanga-Moshi line and not to retain this derelict military line.
  Major-General Sir J. DAVIDSON: How much of the Tanga line is in Kenya?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have said I was completely wrong in my statement on that point. The bulk of it is in Kenya. There is a great sparsity of population along its length. Naturally Kenya would rather spend its money on its own line than on the development of another line.
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  You cannot at any rate ask the British taxpayer to pay for this line. It is proposed shortly to issue another Kenya loan for the purpose of railway development, rolling stock, and the like, and I hope that this development may be helpful to the area through which the railway passes. After all the traffic at Tanga not long before the War was larger than that at Dar-es-Salaam, and the people at Tanga will strongly resent any action that condemns their port to stagnation in order to increase business at Mombasa.
  Now let me announce that a Customs Federation has been effected between Kenya, Uganda and the Tanganyika Territory whereby the produce of any one of these Dependencies is admitted free of duty into either of the other Dependencies. The tariffs of the three Dependencies have also been assimilated.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Does that mean that the heavy import duties now-imposed in Kenya are to be imposed on the other Dependencies?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The tariffs will be more or less general. That is the only possible thing to do in three contiguous territories. Let me say in this connection I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Sir Sydney Henn) has succeeded in forming a Committee of merchants and other people interested in East African trade who will be able to confer from time to time with the Colonial Office, in the same way as the West African Chambers of Commerce have done for so long. For many years representatives of the Liverpool, Manchester and London Chambers of Commerce have come periodically with an agenda and discussed matters of interest and helpful to the Colony with the Parliamentary Under-Secretary I am quite sure that both my noble Friend and I will welcome anything on the same lines in connection with anything that will help forward the development and prosperity of the East African Dependency as well as the West African Dependency.
  Let me come to Kenya. Both Kenya and Uganda have suffered from the recent trade slump, but they are now showing a considerable improvement. There is an improvement in Kenya, both in the acreage in European occupation under cultivation, and in native production. The Government are absolutely certain that the proper economic basis in

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  Kenya is that native production in the Reserve and European production in the White Island must go hand in hand and must be developed side by side. Joint co-operative effort and increased production by all races in Kenya are essential to the future welfare and prosperity of that country.
  I have a word or two to say about the carefully considered wording on the White Paper. I want to make it clear that this is not a mere Departmental decision. It is the decision of His Majesty's Government as a whole taken by the Cabinet. It must not be looked upon merely as a compromise between views put forward by two rival delegations. It is nothing of the kind. A settlement by agreement between the delegations was clearly out of the question, and the Government decided that they must accept full responsibility to Parliament for giving their decision, for promulgating that decision, and for standing by it. They have done so. If it had been merely a local question, I have little doubt the matter could have been adjusted locally long ago, but the difficulties which have arisen in Kenya required a great deal more than mere local consideration. They affected not merely the relations between the India Office and the Colonial Office, not merely between the Government of India and the Government here in London, but they affected the Commonwealth as a whole, and, to a considerable extent, Africa as a whole. The British Commonwealth is an association of men of every race and of every colour scattered in every continent, based on a common loyalty to the Crown, not on any hierarchy of rights, but on a common spirit of service which transcends all narrow racial interests. After all, if European civilisation is menaced by the clash of mutually antagonistic nationalisms there is an even greater peril in the clash of races, and if there is one duty which the British Empire, far-flung as it is, has to civilisation as a whole it is the duty of reconciling such dangerous forces.
  5.0 P.M.
  In Kenya we have Europeans, Africans, Indians, and Arabs living together, and I feel that the only thing that can be said is that it is the common duty of all to subordinate the narrower conceptions of racial. consciousness to the higher ideal of work-
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  ing together for the Colony and for the Commonwealth as a whole. It is in this spirit and in this hope that the Imperial Government, who are responsible to this Parliament, and this Parliament alone, for the peaceful government and progress of Kenya, put forward its decisions of policy. It will be for the Colonial Office and the Colonial Governor to carry out in detail the policy laid down in this Memorandum. We are the trustees of many great African Dependencies, of which Kenya is one, and our duty is to do justice and right between the various races and interests, remembering, above all, that we are the trustees before the world for the African population. Our administration of this trust must stand eventually before the judgment seat of history, and on it we shall be judged as an Empire. I think I can say no more about this, except that I feel it my duty, as representing the Colonial Office, to say quite definitely that it is regretted that on certain material points it has not been possible to meet the wishes of the Government of India, whose views have received the fullest consideration of His Majesty's Government as a whole, at the instance of the Secretary of State for India, who put them forward quite fearlessly and clearly on behalf of the Government of India.
  Colonel M. J. WILSON: Would the hon. Gentleman say whether he has received any communication from the settlers or Indians with regard to this White Paper?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have not personally, but I understand that communications are being sent to my Noble Friend, and my Noble Friend is speaking on the subject in another place, and I daresay he will deal with that point. I must now say a word about Ceylon, on which, I think, several hon. Members are going to speak. We are proposing, and I hope in a few weeks' time we shall have agreed upon, the Ceylon reforms. Under the old Constitution, the Legislative Council contained 37 Members, of whom 14 were official and 23 unofficial. Under the present proposal, which is now under consideration, the Legislative Council will be increased to 48 members, including one additional seat for Colombo, which the Secretary of State recently granted. Of these 48 members, 22 will be elected by territorial constituencies, 11 will be communally elected, and three will be

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  nominated. The number of official members will be reduced to 12. In addition, the following important concessions will be made. All qualified persons, irrespective of race, will vote in the territorial constituencies; residential qualifications for members will be abolished; the Council will elect a Vice-President, who will preside on ordinary occasions in the Council, the Governor only presiding on special occasions. The one outstanding question at this moment is the question of the possible representation of the Tamil section of the population in Colombo and the Western Provinces. I have recently received a telegram on behalf of the Ceylon National Congress, and, as I understand, they will agree, and all other communities have agreed, to these reforms, and will co-operate in working them for the next five years, if this difficulty can be got over. At present, it is perfectly clear that there is a certain amount of feeling between the Tamil community and what are commonly called the low-country Singalese; and the stumbling-block is this special seat for the Tamils in Colombo. It is pointed out, out of a population of 1,200,000 in Colombo and the Western Provinces, the Tamils only number about 20,000, that is to say, less than the Mahommedans; and the offer, which has been communicated to the Governor for his views, is for an additional territorial seat in the Tamil area, or a communal Tamil seat for the whole Colony, either elected or nominated. Naturally one wants the concurrence of the Tamils to get peace between the various sections of the community in Ceylon, and these suggestions have been telegraphed out for the Governor to consider. In this connection, as I know it is going to be referred to by several hon. Members, I may say that I have to-day received a telegram from the Governor, stating that his speech at Jaffna, in the Tamil area, was misquoted, possibly intentionally, and that the garbled version, which has appeared in the Press,
  "bore little resemblance to what I actually said."
  Those were his words.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Did he say that a settlement has been come to?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I gather that that is all he said that it was garbled
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  and that the report was inaccurate. With regard to Malaya, I want to take this opportunity of expressing the thanks of the Colonial Office for the voluntary gift of the site at Singapore by the Colony of the Straits Settlements—not the Federated Malay States. It is a fitting complement to the very generous gift of the "Malaya" by the Federated Malay States. In Malaya, the tin position is bad, but the rubber position is better. The Stevenson rubber scheme is working well. Before leaving the subject of the Crown Colonies I should like to say one word about Fiji. The sugar industry, which is so important to Fiji, seemed at one time likely to collapse, but the subsequent improvement in prices and the recent arrangement made by the Governor with the leading producing company have removed apprehensions for the immediate future. The chief market for sugar is New Zealand, but for other products more scope is necessary, and, with the closing of the Australian market for bananas, attention is being turned to Canada, and a scheme is being discussed with the Dominion for an improved and specially equipped steamer service. One of the tropical products most in demand in Canada is pineapple, and facilities are being offered by the Government for the establishment of canning factories, and at the same time schemes for assisting planters to grow fruit are under consideration. There are also possibilities in cotton, and in May a cotton expert, with experience in India and Australia, was appointed to advise on cotton cultivation and ginning. The port facilities have been greatly improved in recent years, and the new wharf at Suva is said to be one of the finest in the Pacific. As will have been seen from the Press, we have just had a telegram from the Governor saying that the Legislative Council has passed a Resolution in favour of having on the Council two elected Indian members, and that matter will be taken up with the India Office, as well as other matters connected with Fiji, as soon as my Noble Friend and I have a little leisure for the purpose.
  Captain BERKELEY: May I ask whether the Government have any intention of approaching the Australian Government with a view to obtaining the removal of the import tax on bananas?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: That is, obviously, a question for the Imperial Economic Conference, and it will be raised there. I shall be representing the Crown Colonies, and shall, have to feel my way before I commit myself to actually putting that suggestions forward, but I am collecting questions which the Crown Colonies desire to be put forward as between the Dominions and this country at the Conference, and I shall endeavour to be their particular godfather.
  I have dealt with the Colonial Empire as a whole, which is the main subject of this Debate, and I now turn to the territories under A Mandates, which are, of course, not Colonies in any sense of the word, but for which the Colonial Office is at present responsible. For nearly five years it has been impossible to establish settled conditions in Iraq and Palestine, as we have been awaiting the peace with Turkey which was signed yesterday at Lausanne. By the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkish rights over Palestine and Iraq come to an end, subject to a friendly decision being reached between the British and Turkish Governments about the northern boundaries of the Mosul Vilayet. If agreement has not been reached within a period of nine months from the date on which the evacuation of Constantinople is completed, both parties have agreed to accept the arbitration of the League of Nations on this difficult and complicated question. Mean while, during the last three years, a steady policy of reduction of expenditure has been pursued by both the late and present Government. The total cost, in round numbers, of the Middle East in 1921–22 was £27,000,000; in 1922–23 it was £11,000,000; for this year it is estimated at £8,700,000, and it is hoped that very considerable further reductions will be possible during next year. Three battalions are leaving Iraq immediately, and the garrison of Palestine is also being reduced. With regard to Iraq, the policy outlined in this House by the Prime Minister, on the 3rd May, 1923, has been, on the whole, favourably received by both the moderate and the extremist parties. The general feeling in Iraq is that a genuine step has been made towards more complete independence. The result has been a decided strengthening in the feeling of national
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  responsibility. This has been shown by the determination of the Iraq Government to explore all possible means of increasing the Iraq Army, and thus lessening the need for British assistance, and also by their desire to proceed immediately with the deferred election for the Constituent Assembly. The election machinery is in full swing, and satisfactory progress is being made. The procedure, which is a legacy from the Turkish system, is somewhat cumbersome, but it is hoped that the Assembly may meet by the end of December.
  Mr. ASQUITH: What does the hon. Gentleman mean by "full swing"? What is the procedure?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Candidates are being selected, and the various preliminary formalities—the primaries—are taking effect, election speeches are being made, and the like. The recent successful tour of King Feisal through the whole of Iraq from Mosul to Basra has brought him into personal contact with the leaders of all shades of local opinion, and has largely contributed to the present satisfactory situation. The subsidiary agreements arising out of the Iraq Treaty are now being negotiated, and this House will have an opportunity of debating them with the Treaty before ratification. The Colonial Office has also inherited from the Foreign Office the control of relations with certain of the independent rulers of Arabia. It has been decided that the policy of subsidising these rulers should be brought to an end forthwith, and it is not proposed that any charge on this account should fall upon Imperial revenues after the close of the present financial year. The relations of His Majesty's Government with the rulers in question have remained friendly, and I' have no special statement to make to the Committee about this part of the Middle East.
  Colonel Sir CHARLES YATE: Does that apply to Ibn Saud?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Yes, that applies particularly to him.
  I want now to say one word about Ireland. In the first place, it is obviously very undesirable that I should go into any controversial matter in regard to Ireland, especially as the general election is about to take place almost immediately in the Free State.
  Mr. PETO: Is the hon. Gentleman going to refer again to Palestine after dealing with Ireland?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I really have nothing to add to the very explicit replies which I have given to questions on Palestine in this House, and to the very full statement made by my Noble Friend the Secretary of State in another place. As the Irish Elections are coming along almost immediately—the dissolution is expected to take place the week after next, I will only repeat what was said by the late Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Bonar Law), during the Debate last November on the Irish Free State Constitution Bill which ratified the Treaty. He then said:
  "It is a struggle for good relationship with this country and for peace in Ireland. I am quite sure that everyone in this House will agree with me that we on this side can do nothing to help, but might very well do a great deal to hinder, not only by criticism, but even by expressing our sympathy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th November, 1928; col. 331, Vol. 159.]
  I think, in view of the immediate election, that I can quote no higher authority for what I have just said in that connection. The Free State Government have with scrupulous good faith adhered to the articles of the Treaty, and, further than that, the improvement in the condition of Ireland has been very noticeable, particularly in the last two months. It is almost a miracle that the Free State Government, which had to take over with no troops, with no police, under new conditions, and amid grave disorder, have succeeded in winning through, but it has been at terrible cost to life and property. It is roughly estimated that the last civil war in Ireland, engineered by Mr. de Valera and Mr Erskine Childers, has involved approximately four times the destruction of the whole of the period before the Truce. I was told that in West Cork and in Kerry there is hardly a mansion house which has not been gutted and destroyed, and the destruction has been perfectly appalling, but at present the condition has enormously improved. There is at last a police force and there is now security. There has been a remarkable decrease in crime and juries are again functioning, but it would be idle for me to say we can have any guarantee
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  that there will not be fresh outbreaks. It is clear that there are implacable enemies of the settlement in Ireland who, not from any love of Ireland, but from hatred of this country, which they cannot get over, are endeavouring to destroy and force a military re-occupation of Ireland in order to destroy the settlement. We hope the Free State Government will succeed in putting down this formidable conspiracy, which still exists, and in maintaining order; and only by maintaining order, only by a firm Government, would it be possible to get for loyalists compensation for the destruction they have suffered. In these Southern areas that I am talking of it is not only the Loyalists. Everyone who supported the Free State Government has equally suffered with the Loyalists, and if any compensation is to be paid, obviously peace and a settled and stable Government recognising the Treaty is the only hope, otherwise there would be a burden upon the English taxpayer of £40,000,000 or £50,000,000. That we cannot contemplate. The Free State Government, although owing to the destruction of their railways and to their lack of machinery their revenue has not been good, have made substantial improvement in the last few weeks in payments on account of compensation, and I have every reason to hope that those payments will continue to be improved.
  Finally, may I say a word about the Imperial Economic Conference, which will meet concurrently with the Imperial Conference on 1st October next? The President of the Board of Trade will preside and it will be attended by representatives of the five Dominions, of the Irish Free State, of India, and by myself on behalf of the Crown Colonies and Protectorates. No formal agenda has yet been fixed. A considerable range of subjects for discussion is certain, the main points coming up from the Dominions. The Prime Minister is at present in active consultation with the Prime Ministers of the Dominions regarding the final preparation of the list of questions for discussion. According to present arrangements the subjects which will be brought before the Conference may be summed up under the following heads: (1) Ways and means for the fuller development of the natural resources of the Dominions and Colonies. (2) Inter-Imperial commerce, shipping

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  and communications generally, including wireless and other details. (3) Co-ordinated action for the improvement of technical research. (4) The organisation of economic intelligence. (5) The unification of law or practice in the Empire in certain matters affecting trade development. (6) Oversea settlement and migration.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Under which heading will come the question of modifications of Preference or increases of the same?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Obviously, under inter-Imperial commerce. It will be raised, I understand, by the Commonwealth of Australia.
  Captain BENN: Will the hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the policy he will advocate?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: No, certainly not. Quite obviously, until you have heard what Australia's requests, Canada's requests and New Zealand's requests are it would be folly for the British Government to say here and now what they are going to agree to and what they are not. It is an Imperial Conference of equal Governments, and to bang, bar and close the door would be resented by every self-governing Dominion.
  Captain BENN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the only Parliament in which a debate has not taken place and the views of the Members been sought on this important subject?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I do not arrange the business of the House, but it is in order on the Colonial Office Vote, no doubt, to discuss the Imperial Economic Conference here and now. The special responsibility is mine in connection with the Crown Colonies and Protectorates, as the representative of their interests before this Imperial Conference I want to make it clear, in view of the many-sided nature of the problem and the many Colonies in different parts of the world, that I have been unable to set up a Committee, which would be much too large for any one Committee to advise me on the matter, but I am in touch with all the Colonial Governments, and I am seeking unofficial suggestions.
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  I shall certainly consult the hon. Member for Blackburn, who has set up the East African Committee, just as I shall consult the West African Chambers of Commerce and such like bodies in the representation of interests in connection with this matter. I shall also get into touch with the West Indian Committee. I have had to cover a very vast field, and there are many distant Colonies which will be disappointed that I have said nothing about them. Our relations with Ireland are similar to those with the Dominion of Canada, and it has given us a very much increased amount of work. I know that during? the last nine months, interesting as has been our work, one feels at the moment one cannot do justice to it. I think peace with Turkey, the settlement of Kenya, which I hope will be endorsed by the House to-night, the termination of the rule of the chartered company and the setting up of two Governments in Rhodesia, the various steps I have outlined, the education committee in Africa and the like is no mean record of work done and progress achieved. I believe it is the tradition in this House to keep party politics as far as possible out of Colonial administration. I have always endeavoured to bring a single-minded devotion to the welfare and the progress of all peoples in the dependent Empire, and to keep that before my eyes, and I recommend the Vote with confidence to the House.
  Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: The Committee, I am sure, owes a debt of gratitude to the hon. Gentleman for the very clear and interesting statement he has given us of the activities of his Department in different parts of the world, but, as he has said, and as we have all seen. he has had, within the compass of something like an hour and a half, to cover the greater portion of the earth's surface and in consequence, in this Debate, which has some five hours allotted to it, it will be the duty of every speaker to confine his remarks as closely as possible to the particular subject with which he intends to deal. I intend to deal with one subject only, but it is one of importance not only to the Colony itself, but to the whole Empire. I refer of course to the Kenya question and I desire to approach it in the same spirit as that in which the hon. Gentleman himself spoke. These colonial matters are not

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  and should not be party matters and as regards this question, if I may use a colloquial phrase with regard to it, I should say it should not be approached either in a pro-Indian or a pro-settler spirit. It is very desirable that this matter should be discussed in this House, in the grand inquest of the nation. The local atmosphere of Kenya itself has become impossible for anything like a calm and cool discussion of the issues involved. Things have been said in heat which I have no doubt both sides have regretted, and would wish to forget. I would ask the House to give its attention to the subject with all coolness of the atmosphere of the Imperial Parliament, and to regard the whole question as an Imperial question.
  It was said long ago that there is always something new out of Africa. That is perfectly true, but one of the qualifications of that statement should be that what is new out of Africa very often is not true, and it is exceedingly difficult, as I have found in my own experience in Africa, to arrive at the truth. A man may come to you and say his brother has been robbed and killed. A little inquiry will show that the man is not his brother, that he has not been robbed, and that he is very much alive. When the matters in which it is so difficult to arrive at the truth in Africa are transported to this country they become still more difficult, and it is not only the facts that are transported but the atmosphere of propaganda. I am afraid we have not by any means shaken ourselves clear from the habits of propaganda that grew so during the War, and this question has been brought to this country in an atmosphere of propaganda. I am sure every Member of the House has had an infinity of pamphlets of every sort and description from both sides on the matter, and I am sure the majority of us have treated them, as most hon. Members treat such pamphlets, by passing them into that useful receptacle known as the waste-paper basket, but in case any remnants of that propaganda remain, I would ask hon. Members to endeavour to dismiss them entirely from their minds. There have been many efforts made to settle the question here involved, and we owe and should express to the Government our thanks for the great efforts they have made to settle this matter by agreement on this occasion. The honest efforts
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  that have been made between the Colonial Office, the India Office and all parties concerned to get a settlement by agreement have been enormous, and we must all regret that we have not got a settlement by agreement. We have been given a settlement which the Colonial Office thinks is the best under the circumstances. In looking closely, as we must look closely, at that settlement, I would say that the best test is—is it going to settle the matters for the future or is it only a stop-gap for the present? When I was a young man I was taught, as most of us have been taught, to pray for heretics. As I grow older my prayer has been that I should learn to understand the other man's position. We must try to understand the other man's point of view. There are opinions held most tenaciously by both sides in regard to this matter, and we should endeavour to understand the reasons for them.
  If I may be permitted, I should like to describe briefly the Colony of Kenya. It lies in the tropics on the Indian Ocean, and the 10 miles strip in which the Sultan of Zanzibar's flag flies is a rich tropical belt. That is the Protectorate of Kenya, and behind that there is a strip of desert gradually rising to the African plateau, where we get those wonderful and magnificent highlands which rise to a height of from 5,000 to 9,000 feet, and where anything and everything grows, both the fruits and cereals that we have at home and the fruits of the tropics. Potatoes and pineapples grow in the same garden. From that plateau the land drops quickly to the great lakes. What is known as the white area are the highlands of Kenya. It is only a small portion. The White Paper estimates it as one-tenth of the area, but I think one-tenth is rather a large estimate. I should be inclined to put as somewhat smaller the area suitable for white colonisation. When I say suitable for white colonisation, there is one underlying fact that we have to keep in mind. It is a great experiment colonising at these high altitudes under the Equator. Those who have lived there, and are best qualified to speak, say that the experiment is bound to be a success. I am not quite so sanguine that it will be a success. We can only wait and see how the second and third generations of our people can be born and bred out there. In the meantime, we have a large number

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  of white settlers who are putting their money and their backs into the work of developing that country.
  Having briefly sketched the country, I will, with the Committee's permission, go back a few years into its history and trace the beginning of our rule in East Africa. It began with the Charter of the old Imperial British East Africa Company, which was founded by that far-sighted Scotsman, William MacKinnon. He got a Concession from the Sultan of Zanzibar. The Chartered Company took as its motto, "Light and liberty." I should like to refer to one Clause of the Charter, and although I do not lay too much stress upon it, it is rather interesting as being the basis on which our rule there started. Clause 17 of the Charter says:
  "There shall be no differential treatment of the subjects of any power as to trade or settlement or as to access to markets."
  Let us look 10 years later, when the British Government took over from the Company the administration of the territories which the Company found itself without resources to deal with. In those days, as for many hundred years before, there had been Indians settled on the coast. The earliest official figures that I have been able to find with regard to the various races there are contained n one of Sir Arthur Harding's early reports in 1897. Sir Arthur Harding was Commissioner and Consul-General in those, days. The figures were then 7,500 Indians and 390 Europeans and Eurasians. In 1896 the Uganda Railway was commenced. For the building of that railway the Government turned to India for men, material, engineers, clerks, telegraphists and everything. In those days the trade of the country was entirely in the hands of the Indians, and the Government naturally turned to the Indian merchants to help them. Thousands of coolies were brought from India, and no attempt was made to make use of the native material at the time of the building of the Uganda railway. The railway was pressed on in a great hurry in order to reach the head waters of the Nile. It was purely a strategic railway. After the Boer War, when the railway was finished, an. effort was made to obtain settlers for the country which had been opened up by the railway. Emissaries were sent, particularly to
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  South Africa, setting out the advantages and asking men to come with their wives and families from South Africa and settle in the new land. The result was that a large number of Boer and South African settlers came, and in 1911 we had 2,700 white people in the country, while the Indians had increased to 11,800.
  I am sorry to worry the Committee with these figures, but they are rather interesting as showing the development. When the Europeans first came into the country, it was a country in which there were very large numbers of Indians. The Europeans knew that that was the country they were coming to. The last Census of 1921 shows that there are 22,800 Indians there and 9,000 Europeans. Although immigration has been open to the Indians since 1897 to 1921, and although they have been invited, and lands were set aside for them for agricultural settlement, and every inducement given to them to come, the fact remains that from 1897 to 1921 the number of Indians only increased three times. whereas during the same period the number of Europeans increased 23 times. It is a very important matter to consider when the Europeans say that they are afraid of being swamped by the immigration of Indians, that during all this time when the country has been open to immigration the number of Indians has not largely increased. It is a purely economic question, and the Indians who have gone to East Africa have gone there because they have seen an opening there. If they see no opening for themselves, they go back to their own country. Large numbers of them are employed as clerks, telegraphists, and in occupations of that sort, in which there will be no place for them if the native African is educated as he should be in his own country. The African educated in his own country will easily be able to keep out the more expensive Indian imported as an artisan from India. That is an important sidelight in regard to the native question.
  I should like to refer briefly to the political developments. The first Legislative Council was set up in 1906, and one Indian was placed upon that Council. In 1908 an agitation began very strongly among the European settlers for an elective franchise. The first Council was purely nominated. In 1910 there was formed what is known in East Africa as the Convention of Associations—the

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  Convention of Associations to which European people belong, and which acquired very rapidly the name of the Settlers' Parliament. That Convention of Associations exercised very great political influence in the country and was able, as time went on, practically to dictate to the Governors the policy that should be followed. In 1919 the franchise was granted to Europeans. During all this time the party in power politically was purely European, and as may be found in any part of the world, and as we have found in our own history, when one party only is in power it naturally legislates in its own interests. If we look back on these years of the history of Kenya, we shall see a succession of laws passed very much in the interests of the white population alone, while the interests of the Africans, the real natives of the place, were very much left out. I refer particularly to the labour laws that have been passed. Most drastic labour laws have been passed from time to time by the Europeans in order to compel the natives to work for them. There was no idea then—I do not know how far there is an idea now—of the native being a producer on his own account. In those years there was a very strong antagonism and antipathy to the idea of the native producing anything that should come into competition with that which the European settler produced. I do not think we can look for development in any Colony on those lines. The Under-Secretary said rightly that we must look for joint production, joint dealing together, if we are to promote the future advancement of the Colony.
  I can further illustrate the selfishness of the legislation that has taken place by referring to education. Beyond the small 5 per cent. Customs Duty the first tax was the Hut Tax, which was three rupees. It gradually mounted up until the present moment when it is 12s.—it was 15s., but has come down. That tax brings in something like £500,000. How much of that is spent on educating the native to take his place, in his own country? Until a few years ago nothing, and last year £21,000. I quote that merely as an instance to show how selfish legislation may be when it gets entirely into the hands of one party. The declared object of the white settler in Kenya has been to work up to self government. Those hon. Members who have read the White Paper will see that the idea
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  of self government has been, and I think rightly, pushed out of the present picture. It may come in the future, but any idea of having the Colony self governing at present is rightly in the background. You have got a long way to go before that Colony will be ripe for governing itself.
  During the time the political power has been in the hands of what I may call the settler party, the Indians naturally felt themselves left out in the cold and treated not as fellow subjects in the Empire, but almost, I was going to say, as helots, and left entirely out of political consideration with no representation at all. During those years political consciousness in India has been awakened and events have moved very rapidly in India. There is no doubt that the development of political consciousness in India has directly affected the political feelings of the Indians in East Africa, and so from those beginnings we see how naturally the issues now before the country came up—the issue of the franchise, that is political power, the issue of the highlands of Kenya for the European settler, the issue of immigration, which is the right of British citizens to move from one part of the Empire to another, and the issue of segregation which is purely and simply a question of colour. I will touch on those subjects in the order in which they are dealt with in the White Paper.
  On the first point raised in the general statement of policy I would like to quote a Swahili proverb which I think is applicable to the position. Translated it amounts to this: "When elephants fight the grass gets trodden down." We have seen the elephants of India and England fighting, and the grass of the poor native is badly trodden down. We welcome the declaration of the Government of trusteeship on behalf of the native, and we hope that that declaration of trusteeship will not remain merely a piece of paper, but will be translated into acts. The next point dealt with, apart from that of responsible self-government which is put into the background, is the question of the franchise. That is admittedly the most difficult of all questions that came up for consideration. It has been dealt with by giving communal franchise. That is a way which apparently leads out of the difficulty. I say apparently, because I am satisfied that the grant of

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  communal franchise will not lead to a lasting settlement. It may be a temporary arrangement, but it will leave the political feelings, so acute at the present time, still at a point at which the Indians will demand to be treated as citizens of the Empire, and the difficulties which the European feels now in granting them those powers will still have to be settled at a future date.
  For that reason I regret very much that the Government could not see their way to follow what is known as the Wood-Winterton agreement. This goes back on the decision arrived at a year ago. Under that agreement there was to be a common electoral roll. The Indians were to have four out of 11 seats. Under the present arrangement the Indians are to have communal representation and they are to have five seats out of a total of 18 or 20. I say that a communal roll can never be a settlement of the question because, in a country like East Africa, where you have all shades and grades of people living and working together alongside one another, apart from the actual difficulties of working such a system, you will always find that the people who are elected on a communal roll are in separate compartments. They are not pulling together as one people, and the only possible hope of the country having political forces that should be working together is that they should be standing on the same floor and not in different rooms in different places.
  I now come to a most extraordinary suggestion contained in this Paper. From whom it emanated I cannot think. That is the suggestion, that there should be a missionary on the Executive Council and another missionary on the Legislative Council. Does the Government intend, in addition to all the other difficulties under this arrangement, having to introduce a Kikuyu controversy? What sort of a missionary is to be appointed? Is he to be High Church, Low Church, or Roman Catholic? To what particular form of the Christian religion is he to belong? And this is proposed, mind you, in a country which is partly Mahommedan and very largely pagan. The reason given for these extraordinary appointments is that they are to represent the natives. Are the Government so impotent
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  that they could not have an officer of their own, either the Governor or the Commissioner for Native Affairs?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: The Commissioner for Native Affairs will of course be on the Council.
  Sir R. HAMILTON: I do not wish it to appear for one moment that I desire to belittle the good work which the missionaries are doing in the country. If it had not been for the missionaries, the natives would not have had even the amount of education which they have had. I do not wish to say one word against them, but I do protest against what can only be called a grotesque suggestion. The other point, that of segregation, is only a minor point. It was suggested by the medical experts. We all know what medical experts are, but the Government omitted to realise how deeply such a suggestion would move the feelings of our Indian fellow subjects. I am glad to say that the question of segregation has been dropped.
  There remains the question of the reservation of the highlands. That stands in a very peculiar position. We have this block of country reserved for one portion of the inhabitants but reserved in very peculiar conditions, because from the very beginning, from the date of the Land Commission in 1905, Lord Elgin's statement of 1906 was repeated by subsequent Secretaries of State, over and over again. It was that the highlands should be reserved for Europeans. It is very hard to get away from that, and, the position being as I have described, the Government could hardly have done otherwise than they have done, seeing that they are continuing to reserve these lands to Europeans, who have come in and settled there on certain conditions, which have been constantly held out. There I think we have to honour the pledge. But I would rather see it modified to this extent, that though the initial grant should be given only to Europeans and there should be no bar on the European afterwards selling it to whomsoever he likes. That will remove the grievance which is felt by those to whom such land cannot be transferred under the Government scheme.
  The last point dealt with is the point of immigration on which I have already touched. I believe that it is largely an

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  economic question, but I would like particularly to refer to the manner in which this document has been drawn. I should not have done so had not the hon. and gallant Gentleman assured the Committee that this was no mere Departmental document, but a State document of importance which would be referred to hereafter. At the commencement of the Clause dealing with immigration it is stated:
  "It may be stated definitely that only in extreme circumstances could His Majesty's Government contemplate legislation designed to exclude from a British colony immigrants from any other part of the British Empire. Such racial discrimination in immigration regulations, whether specific or implied, would not be in accord with the general policy of His Majesty's Government and they cannot countenance the introduction of any such legislation in Kenya."
  With that I have no fault to find as a statement of the position. In the same section, dealing with the economic aspect, it is said:
  ." When the question is re-examined from this standpoint (i.e. with reference to native interests) it is evident to His Majesty's Government that some further control over immigration in the economic interests of the natives of Kenya is required. The primary duty of the Colonial Government is the advancement of the African and it is incumbent upon them to protect him from an influx of immigrants from any country that might tend to retard his economic development."
  6.0 P.M.
  Who is going to draw the rules? That is a most important thing. One man might draw the rules, and say, "We have got to protect the African, that is what the Government says; therefore we must see that no land is taken away from the African, and we must keep out the European immigrant." Is that the way the rules are going to be drawn, or are they going to be drawn to say, "The Asiatic coming in competes with the African, and we are going to keep the Asiatic out "? I want to lay special stress on that, because the question of how these rules are to be drawn is left open, and there are instructions to the Governor to go into that. I ask the Government to see that it in no way derogates from the primary condition laid down in the Clause. If it conforms with the beginning of the Clause I do not mind what regulations follow, but we must be very careful to see that they do not get round the principle there laid down.
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  We know that the economic condition of the country is very far from good, although I was pleased to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that it was improving. We want, and we are going to have, a Government which will look after African interests, and which is going to keep the question of self-government by a section of the community in the background. That means that we have got to have a strong Governor, who will not be afraid of using his official majority in order to put through Imperial Measures. In order to strengthen the hands of such a Governor, I have a suggestion to make, which does not come from me alone, but is one which many other people have made. It is that the power of the Government should be strengthened by the appointment of a High Commissioner. We want a High Commissioner to resist pressures; pressures from above, and. pressures from below; and I submit that the power of the Government would be greatly strengthened if we had a High Commissioner, not only for the country of Kenya, but for the adjacent countries of Zanzibar, the Mandated Territory, Tanganyika, and Uganda. Questions would come before him which would not be submitted to a Colonial Office, and it would get rid of a lot which annoys the Colonial Office, and, what annoys the colonist, of what they call the interference of the Colonial Office. Such an appointment might have checked the unhappy exhibition, which we saw a year cr two ago, of an attempt to reform the currency in Kenya. It would also have avoided the tearing up of the Voi-Kahe or Voi-Taveta Railway. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made full amends for his ignorance in regard to that railway, and so I will say no more than this, that I believe there is very good precedent for such a mistake in the office of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in regard to Cape Breton, where the Minister, on discovering it was an island, immediately went off and informed the King.
  I do not know whether the proposals here put forward will be accepted by the Indians. I cannot tell what view they will take. I hope they will accept them, because, after all, they should be careful of cutting themselves off from the political life of the country, and it does give them a standing. What they

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  miss, and what I am sure they will give expression to as missing, is this, that there is, throughout this document, nothing to show that the Government realise the real thing they are asking for. The real thing they are asking for is a recognition that they are fellow-citizens of the Empire. There is not one word in this document which gives effect to that. On the other hand, it is true that the Government say, "There will be no segregation, we will not put you in a ghetto." I would ask, even at this late hour, whether the Government cannot make some gesture, and cannot stretch out their hands, and say, "We do intend to recognise that the Indian is going to take his part, and to prove himself, if he can, worthy of his citizenship of the Empire." In conclusion, I would say to the Indian, "Take what is given, and make the best of it." I would say to the settler, "Give up the selfishness you have had before; widen your horizon; see that you are not only legislating and governing in your own interests, but in the wider interests of the whole colony, and so of the whole Empire." I would say to this House, "It is the duty of this House to see that those promises which have been made are carried into effect, and do not only remain on paper." I beg to move.
  The CHAIRMAN (Mr. James Hope):Do I understand that the hon. Member moves a reduction of the Vote?
  Sir R. HAMILTON: Yes, I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
  Sir SYDNEY HENN: I wish to make a few observations to the Committee on the economic condition of the East African Colonies. During the earlier months of this year I had an opportunity of visiting East Africa. I travelled through Kenya and Uganda, and I met a great variety of residents from Tanganyika, from Nyasaland, and also from Zanzibar, and I tried to form in my own mind as complete a picture as I could of the present economic state of those countries. I do not wish to touch on the political aspect of-those questions which have been raised to-day, but I should like, in passing, to offer the Government my congratulations on what I think is the very statesmanlike solution of a very difficult problem. I feel quite sure that there will be extremists of both
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  parties who will not accept this solution in the spirit in which it is meant, but I believe it is the best in the circumstances More particularly, I hope—as I believe—that our friends, the so-called white settlers in Kenya, will recognise that in that settlement there is a great hope for them also. During the course of my visit I saw a great many of them, and I found them very much discouraged.
  I do not share the optimistic opinion that was expressed by the Under-Secretary in regard to the condition of those 'Colonies. I found them all in what I should call a depressed condition. In fact, commercially speaking, they were languishing. There are many reasons, to my mind, why those Colonies are suffering from this present depression. In the first place, we have the old question of communications. There are immense territories there that still want, not only railways but roads, and they cannot be developed until those can be produced The railways that exist in those territories are of various characters, and in various states of health. The Uganda Railway does, as a matter of fact, carry considerable promise of future improvement. In fact, it may be said to be almost a paying proposition to-day. The Tanganyika railways have no hope of being put on a paying basis for the time being, but they are necessary to the existence of those countries. I should like to make one or two suggestions to the Government with regard to matters of general policy that would, I think, help very greatly to put those Colonies on the way to prosperity. In my opinion, one of the first and most essential things is to lift the whole of the railway services in East Africa out of the level in which they stand under the various administrations, and to form a strong central railway board; a railway board composed largely of the commercial element, but also with the necessary guarantee of Government representation to look after the public interest.
  It should be a board that could consider, not only questions of administration, but questions of policy, and questions such as we have had recently raised in the House of Commons with regard to the best methods of construction. it should be a board that could see that the various administrations were put on a commercial basis, and run on business lines, with the certainty that some of

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  those lines would soon enough acquire sufficient credit to be able to obtain, through the open market, the funds that were necessary for their development; while those railways that for a considerable period of time would still be unable to pay their way might merit on the part of the Government, either in the form of guaranteed loans or of direct grants-in-aid, that help without which they never will be constructed, and certainly could not be administered or operated for a great number of years. There is another thing which I think should be carried into effect as soon as it becomes possible for the Government to do so. It was foreshadowed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton), when he referred to the possibility of appointing a High Commissioner.
  In my opinion, we should go very much further than that, and, if it were possible to do so, we should start at once to try and bring about the immediate federation, not only of the four Colonies referred to, but also of the Colony of Nyassaland, which is practically coterminous with Tanganyika territory. Such a federation might be difficult to carry out in completeness from the very first, but a beginning might very easily be made by unifying those services which are common to all those Colonies, and yet carrying five seperate administrations. Take the case of the posts and the telegraphs. Take the case of the railways—if they were transferred to a central board of railways. Take the case of the medical, the agricultural, and the veterinary services, which are carried on at the present time under three or four separate establishments, and under conditions which do not lend themselves to the very best results. For example, I found in one Colony that the Director of Agriculture objected to the planting of coffee by natives, and in the next Colony the Director of Agriculture recommended and pressed for the planting of coffee by natives. In a third Colony the Director of Agriculture also expressed an opinion unfavourable to the planting of coffee by natives. There were thus two authorities to one on the question, but where doctors differ, how can we hope to find salvation? In regard to that particular matter, I consulted a man who had had great experience in coffee planting in Costa Rica, and he said that in
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  Costa Rica the planters encouraged all the natives around them to grow coffee. There is another respect in which the federation of these States would be very beneficial to the future development of East Africa. It is a point which I am glad to see has been very ably brought out in the White Paper published last night. I refer to the trusteeship of the natives. Prior to my visit I had never been to Africa and had never met with the African races in their native home, and I have great pleasure in testifying publicly here to the fact that, throughout these Colonies, I found the very best relations between the white people and the native races. More particularly did I notice that the administrative officers throughout these Colonies are not only trusted, but are beloved by the natives. There can be no question about that. On the other hand, I did come across discrepancies between the treatment meted out to the natives in one Colony as compared with another Colony. I listened, for example, to a complaint from the natives on the eastern side of Lake Victoria that they were not so well treated in the matter of land reservation and land tenure as their brethren on the other side of the lake in Uganda. I do not wish to state, because" I have not the full knowledge which others possess who have lived for a long time in that country, that these complaints were necessarily fair, but there certainly was a difference of treatment. Such differences should never arise, and I believe could never arise, under the administration of the trusteeship by a Governor-General or High Commissioner—just as you like to call him—who would really be responsible for the welfare of the native races in Africa to the British Government, the British Parliament and the British nation.
  In this connection I should also like to refer to the business aspect of the situation. Everywhere I went I found that in some way or other enterprise was discouraged. I do not like to use the words "private enterprise," since that is not a favourite phrase with some people, but enterprise was discouraged by the part taken by the local administration or the Government in the regulation of trade, by interference with trade and industry, and by Government participation in trade. In this matter it is not possible to dogmatise and to say that there should

  531
  be no interference, no participation or no regulation; we know we cannot live without regulation, but everybody connected with administration such as exists in Central Africa should realise that all these things are dreadful discouragements to private enterprise. Examples of this meet one at every turn. There is room for all sorts of enterprise. I quite agree with the Under-Secretary that the basis of progress in these countries lies in the energies of the native, in the uplifting and education of the native and the inducement held out to the native to work, and, if he will not work, a gentle fatherly pressure of the right kind so that he may be educated to work, but always reaping the profit from his own work. In saying that, I do not think that for one single moment that leaves out of the picture the possibilities or opportunities of private enterprise in various forms taking a part in the development of these colonies.
  In the case of the white settlers, they are working out their own salvation under very great difficulties. They are not all land grabbers. Some of them are very hard workers indeed and most of them have risked their lives and a good deal of their money and have lost their money. I believe the great bulk of them will win through these hard times and that the day will come when we shall all realise that it is a very solid advantage to this Empire to have that little block of white men of our race established perfectly firmly in their highlands in the centre of Africa. It will at least, in my opinion, provide a guarantee for good order and for the defence of any rights which the British Empire may possess in that part of the world. In conclusion, I ask the Government, through its administrative officers, to extend a more friendly hand to the business man who wishes to work in those countries. It is a fact that in Tanganyika many efforts have been made to make a start in that country, but they have met with a very poor response, and the accounts which I received out there all agreed in saying that the actual administration in Tanganyika was not too sympathetic and I am afraid it is a little reactionary. I thank the Committee for having listened to me with such patience.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: The speech to which we have just listened is an example
  532
  of the sort of speech which the House of Commons really enjoys. It is the speech of a man who has been there and who states his opinion about the country and gives his views, and although we, on this side, differ from those views, they are views which ought to be expressed here. The Committee will forgive me if I do not immediately deal with the Kenya question, but with one or two minor points which I have been instructed to bring before the Under-Secretary. In the first place, I wish that we could have had a fuller account than we had of the development of the Constitutions of the West Indies, but I suppose we must wait until we get a regular report upon that question. One point in connection with the West Indies which I wish to bring out is the question of land development in the Island of Trinidad. There have been constant complaints from Trinidad, not from the Indians in this case, but from the natives, that the 400,000 acres of unalienated land in Trinidad is either being held up, or when it is alienated, is sold in such large blocks that the only people who can purchase it are companies or white planters who are working on a large scale. I cannot understand why this unalienated land in a Colony where unemployment is rife should not be alienated out in small lots on lease. In that case the State as a whole, or the people of Trinidad as a whole, do not lose the ultimate reversion of the property and undubtedly it would lead to development of employment and production particularly in cocoa and other minor products of the sort which we get from Trinidad—just the same as the development of the cocoa industry which we have on the Gold Coast. Everybody knows the bad times through which the West Indies have been passing lately. With the exception of sugar everything slumped—palm oil, cocoa and so forth—and the small cultivators in an island like Trinidad are practically ruined, their property is mortgaged and they have been compelled to borrow money in order to buy these large blocks of land. They have been pressing, and I understand the Government of Trinidad and the Governor himself have been pressing, for the establishment in that island of agricultural banks to help these small cultivators, and I am told, to my surprise, that the opposition to this proposal comes from

  533
  the Colonial Office. I think that is a short-sighted policy. I am quite aware that a big bank like the Colonial Bank would be opposed to that sort of thing and to the development of agricultural banks, but we cannot possibly develop any Colony if we look at it solely from the point of view of one particular interest in that Colony. We want the largest possible facilities for development, and I hope the Under-Secretary will see his way to make inquiry into this matter.
  I pass rather hurriedly from the West Indies to the West Coast of Africa. I am glad to hear the Under-Secretary, in the course of his first statement to us on Colonial affairs, announce that he is going out to the West Coast because there axe several questions there which require the urgent attention of the Government. I put in the first place the extravagant capital expenditure of these Colonies, and there, I am afraid, I shall have the Under-Secretary against me. I am quite certain that you are going to saddle the taxpayers of these Crown Colonies with enormous burdens for such works as the development of the new harbour at Takoradi and the new railway, and if you are going to saddle them with these gigantic burdens, you will strangle the development of these Colonies and you will have to continue, and even to increase, the export duties in order to find the interest on the loan. In the long run such capital expenditure will be a handicap and not a means of developing the Colony. Then take the actual annual Government expenditure. When salaries were raised on the West Coast, they were raised without any qualification as to the cost of living, and, as the cost of living has fallen, although salaries have fallen also in other parts of the world, on the West Coast they are still at the high.[level of 1920. I think there really should be some cut of salaries, or, if not, it might be possible to establish a local Income Tax which would cut them for you. The hon. and gallant Gentleman rather ridicules the idea of an Income Tax on the West Coast of Africa, but I do not know why, because, after all, he has been the means of establishing something like that in Tanganyika, but perhaps what is good enough for Tanganyika is not good enough for the Gold Coast, especially if applied to the salaries as well as the profits of com-
  534
  panies. The real difficulty on the West Coast is that of balancing the Budget. Salaries have gone up, officials have more than doubled in number, the costs of Government have increased enormously, and, at the same time, the Government by a gesture of disinterestedness which was beautiful, but not practical, have cut off their principal source of revenue. In these circumstances the Government have been faced with a deficit, and they have put on export duties which will really strangle the trade of the Colonies. I call the hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention to the experiment of the Governor, Brigadier-General Sir Gordon Guggisberg. Governor Guggisberg, faced with a dwindling revenue and the complaints in this House of Commons last year, decided to cut his cocoa tax and to reduce the cocoa export duty by 50 per cent. What was the result? On paper the loss should have been £326,000 a year, but, as a matter of fact, the reduction in that duty by 50 per cent. resulted ultimately in an actual loss of only about £23,000. If additional cocoa is exported from the Gold Coast, the natives on the Gold Coast who own the cocoa purchase the equivalent amount in this country, and anything that increases your exports in that country immediately results in an increase of exports of cotton goods from Lancashire. When you are not only, by your export duties, strangling the cocoa export trade, but at the same time strangling the Lancashire export trade, you are doing double harm to the Empire, and that experience shows that in the case of the Gold Coast a reduction of these export duties would pay for itself. Even a complete cancellation of these export duties would very largely pay for itself, because it immediately involves larger imports into the Colony, and the import duties are a very large proportion of the total revenue of the Colony.
  I come back to the question of balancing the Budget, because until you have your finances in good order there, you cannot expect the trade to recover or our exports from Lancashire to the Gold Coast, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone to revive; and, of course, Nigeria, which is ten times the size of the other two Colonies, is hardly scratched, has hardly begun to be developed, yet. The trade to the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone per square mile of territory must be

  535
  infinitely greater than to that untapped market of Nigeria. The way to balance the Budgets on the West Coast, and the way also to do the right thing by the natives, is to revise the whole of your system of dealing with the liquor traffic on the West Coast. I do not believe there is a single hon. Member in this House, or a single permanent official in the Colonial Office, who really approves now of our gesture at St. Germain. The St. Germain Treaty, into which we went with all the enthusiasm of a recent Armistice, resulted in all the great nations having colonies on the West Coast of Africa deciding that henceforth they would no longer allow the nigger to get gin. When we do a thing like that we mean it, and the Colonial Office, full of its new virtue, determined to stop trade spirits. I gather that the first who objected were the Europeans on the West Coast, who did not quite see it, and they got their exemption, I understand, but the Colonial Office did their best to prevent trade gin going into their West Coast Colonies, and they thought all was well. Then they discovered, to their surprise, that gin, trade spirit, was coming over the frontiers from the French Colonies. They discovered that the French Government were selling in Togoland 50,000 gallons, I believe it was, of surplus war stores in the shape of gin, and they discovered, a thing they had never known before, that the native could make an intoxicating liquor in his back garden. The result has been practically no limitation in the consumption of alcohol in the West Coast Colonies at all, but an enormous drop in the revenue, and that is not all. The native is now getting acclimatised to making his own drink, and he makes it by tapping the cocoa palm.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: He always did that.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I know, but in the old days he was not driven to do it. He did not need to go and spoil his own palm trees, but at present, by your prohibition of the import of trade spirits, you are forcing the natives, not only to make their own drink and reduce the Government's share in the profits of the industry, but you are forcing them also to cut down their trees and thus to destroy their capital and ruin the trading prospects
  536
  of the Colony. Everybody who knows the facts of the whole of this drink position on the West Coast knows that it has been getting worse and worse year by year. The Under-Secretary is going out to the West Coast this winter, and I suggest to him that he should stiffen his visit, if I may say so, by taking with him a Commission, a Royal Commission if he likes, or a Select Committee of this House if he likes, to inquire into the drink question, to see whether we cannot revise our position, whether we cannot go back to the old system of import duties, and have those import duties turned into ad valorem import duties, which would make the gin dearer than it is, but would secure that that extra dear-ness went into the pockets of the Government instead of into the pockets of the smugglers. That is an attitude which could be taken up, and a policy which could be advocated, not only by Members opposite, not only by people interested in the licensed trade, but we on this side equally advocate this change of policy. We advocate it, not because it will lead to any increase of drinking, but because we believe it will lead to a reduction of drinking and to a more efficient control of the trade in these spirits. Anybody who has the interests of the natives at heart would, I am sure, support the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the circumstances of the case, and to gee whether something could not be done to revise that Treaty of St. Germain. We want to get back into a position where we should have our hands free for dealing with the liquor question as we thought fit, and preferably, I believe, by putting a heavy ad valorem import duty on the drink going into that Colony.
  Now in regard to the very dangerous pronouncement of the Under-Secretary on railways. I did not realise before what the Government were up to. As far as I can see, this new Committee, according to all the questions in this House that have been streaming upon us lately, which was to consider whether it would be cheaper to construct railways departmentally or by contract, is really going to consider how private railways can best be made to pay and be constructed in the Crown Colonies.
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Whether they can supplement State enterprise.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Yes, but I hope my hon. Friend sees the danger. All railways of that sort in the Colonies before have been made by getting the alternative block system, and they have paid, not by the traffic on the railway, but by the increase in value of the land blocks which they have secured. Surely the hon. Gentleman does not intend that any system of railway enterprise should be introduced in any of our Crown Colonies which will sacrifice the rights of the natives in that way. It is essential, if we are going to have railway development, that it should not be a railway development to take the land away from the natives, but that it should be purely a business enterprise, creating railways, creating additional transport facilities, and not looking to making their profits by the holding up or the sals of land rights. I hope that is quite clear, and that the Under-Secretary will deal with that when he comes to speak.
  May I pass on to the question of Rhodesia? I congratulate the Government on their Rhodesian settlement. I have had grave suspicions of the Under-Secretary for years past, and I am afraid I have shown them only too often, but I think the solution that has been arrived at by him reflects great credit upon him, and at the same time relieves this country of the serious charge that we sacrificed the rights of the natives to our pockets. Under the settlement, as I understand it, we pay £1,750,000 for the charter rights in Northern Rhodesia. I gather that the annual deficit in Northern Rhodesia must be pretty considerable. Does it mean that, in addition to this £1,750,000, we are to find year by year a Grant-in-Aid of £100,000 to balance the Northern Rhodesian Budget? If so, I think we ought to know where we are. I do not say it is not necessary, that we might not ultimately get our money back, but I want to know where we are. There are two sections in the settlement of which we cannot possibly approve, and which, I think, have been passed without really adequate consideration. We have had protests from the Labour party in Rhodesia about them already. I refer to the grant of mineral rights in Northern Rhodesia, which seems to us to be rather vague. I do not know what they mean, but do they include all royalties from mines at present in operation, and what
  538
  is the value of these mineral rights estimated to be? In the second place, the point we want to criticise, and which, I think, has not been adequately criticised yet, is the stipulation that we shall not assist the development of railways which will compete with existing lines. It is obvious that Northern Rhodesia is bound to connect itself up more and more closely with the Zambesi mouth, that the natural flow of her trade will be down towards Chinde and the mouth of the Zambesi, rather than right away down the Continent, but if you get the trade of Northern Rhodesia developing naturally, whether across to Angola or down to the Zambesi, you have to construct railways. Are we to understand that all these railways, that any development of railway interests in these directions, is barred by this Clause which prevents undue competition?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE:No
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am glad to hear it, but at the same time we must remember that the Chartered Company shareholders will look at the whole of this document—I suppose this is the draft of the official document—with the eyes of a lawyer. They will see these Clauses in, and they may well read into them conditions and qualifications which would hamper the development of the Colony, not only in Northern Rhodesia but in Southern Rhodesia also.
  What have we paid this £1,750,000 for? Some of it, no doubt, is for buildings, for the Government as a going concern, but mostly this House is going to be asked to pay that money in order to buy back the native rights in their own land in South Africa. We ought never to have allowed those native rights to go, and if it had not been for a foolish letter from the Colonial Office, written in days long since gone by, practically confirming by an ipse dixit the rights of the Chartered Company in the Lewanika concession, we should not now be saddled with this enormous debt. I am glad to pay it, in order to manumit the million natives of Northern Rhodesia, but you cannot save those natives in the long run unless you take the earliest opportunity of establishing their fundamental Grond wet, as it was called, or land law, which will establish once for all those native rights.

  539
  I congratulate the Government on the legislation concerning land that they have introduced in Tanganyika. There they brought forward an Act, or enacted an Ordinance, which seems to me to be absolutely ideal. I should like to read the opening paragraph of this law, because this is what our Colonial Office ought to stand for, and ought to have stood for in the past centuries. It reads:
  "Whereas it is expedient that the existing customary rights of the natives of the Tanganyika Territory to use and enjoy the land of the Territory and the natural fruits thereof in sufficient quantities to enable them to provide for the sustenance of themselves, their families, and their posterity should be assured, protected, and preserved "—
  and then the law goes on to reserve the land of Tanganyika for the natives of Tanganyika. That is the right spirit. I hope we shall see an Ordinance similar to that enacted also for Northern Rhodesia. Once that is approved, even your prospecting railway companies cannot get away from it. Once you have your fundamental land law, you save the liberties of these people; you allow them to work on their own land, and you Jo not force them to go and work for an employer. So far, your Rhodesian settlement, animated, I believe, by the right spirit of the Colonial Office, has rescued the natives of Northern Rhodesia, but not enough. I hope you will carry that on by seeing they are rescued in perpetuity. As regards Southern Rhodesia, I think we can congratulate ourselves that the people decided to keep out of the Union of South Africa. They have shown, I think, political common-sense, and, as far as I can see, the development of that country is likely to be far more prosperous as a self-governing dominion, independent of all rival sectional hatreds, than it would have been if it had gone into a Union, where the position of the settlers would not have been quite so strong as it is to-day.
  There is one point, however, about that settlement to which I think we have got to draw attention. I think if Southern Rhodesia was given self-government, a year or two hence, even this year, there is no doubt we should have had definite stipulations to protect the political
  540
  rights and status of the natives. We have always been told that the natives of Southern Rhodesia have votes on the common roll. Yes, but there are only about 50 all told who have votes. In this connection, would it not be possible to establish one general rule for all our Crown Colonies, and that is, until the native population is sufficiently educated, and is sufficiently developed to have the power of protecting themselves by their own votes, they should have special representation on the Legislative Assemblies, even although the Legislative Assembly does not have responsibility? My hon. and learned Friend the ex-Chief Justice referred to missionary representation. I think that, provided you have a missionary who is really a missionary, and not settler, you will probably do more to protect the natives of the country than you can do even by having a High Commissioner. The best High Commissioner, perhaps, they have ever had in Kenya was driven out of that Colony because he was too pro-native. Conditions there were made impossible for him. The Governors there tried to keep their end up, but the pressure of the entire European population of a colony can be too much for a Governor, and certainly can be much too much for a Native Commissioner. I do not know how you can protect the natives in Kenya to-day. Possibly, if you had a Governor made of iron, you might get real protection and the development of the natives, but no one knows better than the hon. Gentleman how difficult it is. You place the man, in whom you have the most confidence, in a society where everybody he meets pushes in the same direction, thousands of miles away from here, where letters and telegrams have little effect, and you expect him to maintain the attitude which hon. Members would wish him to maintain.
  Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: You have a very strong man in Sir Robert Coryndon.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I do not think so. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will remember that when he made his opening speech to the Convention he said, remember, I am a South African, and

  541
  not a politician." That seems to me to be a confession which gives away the whole position.
  Sir J. NORTON-GRIFFITHS: He was South African born.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I would sooner have an English-born man, or somebody who had been born and bred in the tradition of the Colonial Office even—born and bred in the traditions of fairness to all men and justice to natives—than a man born in South Africa. I pass from that, and come to the settlement to which we have been referred. I noticed that the hon. Gentleman spoke all the rest of his speech, and made it very well, but when he came to East Africa, he read it, and I quite understand that. He and I know perfectly well that this settlement is not a settlement which can be supported in any assembly which considers justice, and I think he knows it is not a settlement which can permanently be tolerated in East Africa. The settlement may satisfy the European settlers, because it is a surrender to them, but you can never expect it to satisfy Indians so long as those Indians are expected to be members of the British Empire. That is the real difficulty. I say it is a surrender, and I am afraid it is even a worse surrender than I expected, because I did not expect there would be this re-opening of the immigration question. Unfortunately, he and I know full well that the immigration question is one which, if left to the Governor and public opinion in Kenya, would be used, just as the whole of the legislation of that Colony has been used up to now, in order to keep out the Indian, to exacerbate this racial struggle, which has done so much harm to Kenya. Here is one of those confidential despatches which seem always to be made public when they get to Kenya. It is from the Colonial Office to Kenya:

  IMMIGRATION BILL.
  I have satisfied myself after prolonged personal discussion with the Secretary of State for India that the passing of the strengthened Bill at the present stage would bring about the immediate rupture of negotiations with the Government of India and entail grave damage to Imperial interests both in India and in several portions of the Colonial Empire. Nevertheless, you will understand that I do regard a strengthened immigration law of general application as an essential part of general settlements."
  The fact is that this settlement has not been a settlement dictated by reason, but a surrender to force. Only nine months ago, after endless discussion, after hearing every point of view put ad nauseam, we got the Wood-Winterton settlement. That Wood-Winterton settlement was, to my mind, a sort of settlement to which the British Government, having regard to the possibilities of the development and the future of the British Empire, could honestly set their hands. I do not attach any importance to the Highlands question, because I believe people who want to sell their land in the Highlands will soon be only too glad to have as many purchasers as possible. But the real difficulty solved by the agreement was the uniting of all citizens in Kenya, coloured as well as white, on one uniform roll. That was the one point in which every Indian, not merely in Kenya, was vitally interested. That statement went out to Kenya, and the "Times" correspondent sent the following from Nairobi on receipt of the instructions from the Colonial Office:
  "Sir Robert Coryndon is instructed that the terms must be regarded as only subject to minor adjustments, but he has decided to submit the despatch to the Executive Council."
  He submitted his despatch to the Executive Council. He did what I suppose any man of that sort would do. He attempted to satisfy the people on the spot by making objections to the settlement which he was ordered to carry out. While the discussion went on, the whole of Kenya was boiling with the agitation, and presently we had the usual threats of secession from the Empire. Plans were got out to kidnap the Governor—why, I could never make out—plans were got out to replace all the Government officials, and appeals were made to South Africa. This was one of the Resolutions passed at a public meeting in the Nyanza Province:
  "It having come to our knowledge that a despatch has recently been received from the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies proposing to give the Asiatic community equal political rights with the European Colonists, we, the European settlers of Songhor, Muhoroni, Koru and Port Ternan in public meeting here assembled, protest in the most emphatic manner possible against any attempt to enforce such preposterous proposals. Should any-such attempt be made, we, realising that

  543
  we have exhausted every constitutional method to prevent such a catastrophe, hereby pledge ourselves to "—
  etc., etc., and that was coming from, I suppose, practically the whole of the settlers of Kenya.
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I want to make it quite clear that the Under-Secretary of State has no power to send a telegram to Kenya, and has never sent one.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope I did not suggest that it came from the Under-Secretary, but from the Colonial Office.
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I thought I had better make it clear.
  7.0 P.M
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: This protest was just the ordinary form signed by everyone present at these meetings, and it was a threat of direct action, with which we are so often charged here, that made the Government reconsider their position. They were effectively brought to their knees by 9,000 settlers, and there is not a word about that in the Report which we are now discussing. Reading that Report, you would imagine that the conclusion come to by the Government had been come to after earnest consideration of what was right. Not a bit of it. It was come to after earnest consideration of the possibility of sending the Guards to Nairobi. Would it not have been simpler in dealing with these people not to have taken seriously their threats of force? Secession from the British Empire cannot be done by a small force. Secession is not likely to remain for long very popular among any section of British citizens. The whole fact of the matter is that this agitation has been got up by a small clique of people who, by beating the big drum, have got a lot of people behind them, but when it comes to actual fighting and marching on the King's African Rifles, when it comes to seizing the Government and the officials, I think you will find that there is not quite so vital a spark about the whole thing. This agitation is on one point only. It is on the question of the common roll of the electors. The Indians say they will not have a separate roll, under which they will be considered to be a C3 branch of the British Empire, but a common roll of common equal citizenship. They say this puts them in a permanently inferior position. It is a social
  544
  slur rather than a political disability. They are content to have them in a permanently inferior position. It is a social slur rather than a political disability. They are content to have educational qualifications; they were content that they should be expected to be able to speak English, they were content that they should have property qualifications which would rule out the vast mass of the population, but they said, "Let some of us in on equal terms with the whites, just to show that the British Empire stands for unity of all members of the British Empire." You may say it is sentiment, but it is sentiment that plays and is likely to play a large part in the development of the British Commonwealth.
  Consider the difference between ourselves and France. We are having trouble all over our coloured Empire. France sits comfortably in Algiers she sits tight in Morocco, she sits tight in Tunis, and in Senegal, and there is never a word of trouble. Does that show that the Government is better, that there is more justice or more equity or less corruption there? Not a bit of it. It is because there is no colour bar. There is no distinction between the two races. A coloured man sits for Martinique in the French Chamber of Deputies. The people are proud of France, they become part of it. Because of 9,000 settlers in Kenya you are not to allow the people of the British Empire to have the same unity. That is the tragedy. If I were to advise my Kenya Indian friends what to do about the settlement, I would say to them, "Accept it. It is all you can get, and all you can expect. Do not suppose that you have got justice. It is not your business any longer. Take the five seats and elect your men. Put on men who will stand up for your rights. Do not adopt the silly policy of non-co-operation which has ruined the political situation in India. Get on the Council and carry on. The struggle is not yours. The struggle is now between the people of india and the people of Great Britain, a much bigger problem." The repercussion of this decision on India will be tragic. I do not believe that any step has ever been taken so disastrous to the British Empire since Lord North drove the American colonists out of the British Commonwealth.
  Cannot hon. Members see what this means? Do they not see it is a slap in

  545
  the eye, after the declaration of the Imperial Conference two years ago, after everything that was said by hon. Members, by Prime Ministers, and ex-Prime Ministers about equal rights within the British Empire. They do it because they are afraid of 9,000 settlers? Good heavens, it is not only that henceforth you set up two different categories of British citizens. That is bad enough, but you do it because you are afraid. Is there a corner in India where they will not know why the British Empire assented to this unjust settlement? There will be people in India who will not be sad about this settlement. It will be a tragedy to many of our friends, but do not forget that no people will rejoice more in this settlement than the enemies of England. That is what this Government has done. It is not easy, when a step like this has once been taken, ever to put it right, but I am certain the party I have the honour to speak for to-night, when their turn comes, will do their best. I cannot say more than that, because heaven knows what the repercussion of this will be before that time. But we will do our best to re-establish justice and fair play throughout the British Empire and put an end to what is ruining our chance of real peace and development.
  I am sorry I must also say a word about Ceylon. The Cingalese have got their Constitution, but we are in considerable doubt about what the Constitution is. The Government has one view, and the Governor has another. Which will win I do not know. There are six different communities in Ceylon, and the peculiarity about this Constitution is, that the people who have been pressing most for communal representation are the Indians in Ceylon. How they have ever been betrayed into this fatal course I cannot say, I can only say that the settlement will, apparently, satisfy everybody except the Cingalese. From our point of view, we are not interested in the quarrels of the Cingalese and the Tamils. As long as they continue to keep at each other's throats, they will not get a better Constitution than this, but what we are interested about in this particular Constitution, is the fact that the peasants and the coolies have no votes in it. The people who have got the vote and who will administer the country will look after their own communal
  546
  interests, but the unfortunate coolies, I who form the bulk of the labourers in the plantations of Ceylon, and the peasants, who are the best of the people in Ceylon, who have had votes for local option, time after time, and who have exercised that vote in putting down all sales of liquor, will not have votes for the Ceylon Legislature. That must be left to the people who are better off.
  Mr. MILNE: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware what the franchise means in Ceylon? At the present moment it is £40 a year.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Hardly a single coolie will get the vote; hardly a single Cingalese peasant will get the vote. They will be practically disfranchised, and I am asking that they should have nominated representatives on the Council. It seems to me that this is one of the cases in point where, when you give self-government, you must look after the interests of people who are unable to take part in it. For that reason, I beg the Government to consider that point of view. In Burma 3,000,000 people, who are not so civilised as the Cingalese, have been enfranchised. These people have got the best constitution among the whole of our Colonial possessions. Ceylon, which is also Buddhist and which is about 300 years older in civilisation than the Burmese, get a constitution such as this. I do not think it is any credit to the Colonial Office that they should have given that sort of constitution. It would have been far better to have given the Burmese type of constitution holus bolus to the people of Ceylon. That would have given them a chance of responsibility and of education in responsible government. That is too late now, but even now the Government might do something to make it clear that communal representation is only temporary and that, as soon as the Tamils and the Cingalese can put an end to it, they will be able to rejoice in a settlement which will be worthy of Ceylon.
  Mr. BANKS: There are few things more surprising to a new-comer to this House than the amount of time we allot to positively parochial affairs on the one hand and to questions of gigantic Imperial importance on the other. Two days were allotted to the discussion of

  547
  the affairs of India, though one day only was originally allowed, and this afternoon we are perhaps to make a pronouncement which will affect the destinies of millions of persons throughout the habitable globe. As I listened to the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, a strange verse from the Bible came into my head. It was
  "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision,"
  and I suppose in the course of this evening we shall settle the affairs of these multitudes in rather less time than we are accustomed to allot to settling the salaries of, say, a few school teachers, or the borrowing powers of a few local authorities. Such, however, are the conditions under which it pleases Parliament, here in Westminster assembled, to deal with the nations for whose welfare it is responsible. Before I approach the question of the settlement of Kenya, may I offer one criticism on some of the observations that fell from the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton). He complains that in the past the legislation in Kenya has been selfish legislation, passed by the settlers to their own advantage. It is rather curious that that should be the case, considering that up to the present time there has been an official majority in the Legislative Council, and, if that legislation has been selfish, it must have been the fault of the Colonial Office. The second subject he complained about was that, out of about a million sterling raised in taxation, only the sum of £20,000 was allotted to the education of the African natives. I think he must have forgotten that there are other calls upon the revenue of Kenya than that of education. There is the medical service. There is the benefit the African natives derive from the railways. There is the policing of the native districts, and the administration of justice in Kenya Colony. There are sometimes even pensions to be paid to those who have been engaged in administration in Kenya Colony in the past. All these are claims upon the revenue of the Colony that you have to take into account when you are considering what sums can be spent upon African education.
  I have read the numerous pamphlets to which reference has been made on both
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  sides of this controversy. I have read the judgment that His Majesty's Government have pronounced. I have tried in this matter to use my own common sense. How it will be accepted by the colonists or by the Indian representatives, I do not know, for it does not concern me, but I do think that I shall be expressing the opinion of a considerable number of Members on this side of the Committee when I express my satisfaction with the general outlines of the settlement which His Majesty's Government has made. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Ly me (Colonel Wedgwood) said that many of his friends in India would be disappointed, and that many of the enemies of this country would rejoice. I can hardly believe that to be the case, since to my knowledge the hon. Gentleman's friends there are mainly recruited from those who are the enemies of this country. While I express general approval of the settlement—
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: What did you do in the Great War, anyway?
  Mr. BANKS: I was referring to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's friends, not to his performances, nor to mine. But I had the privilege and the opportunity of joining His Majesty's Forces as a private in August, 1914, and I served in India; that is why I know something about his friends and about the enemies of this country.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: You must have made some.
  Mr. BANKS: There are three points on which I desire to express my gratification—and I think other hon. Members share it. The first is that His Majesty's Government have been firm enough—and if I may say so with modesty—wise enough to resist certain demands from the Indian representatives in this case, demands which can only be described as exorbitant. In the second place, the Government has kept the pledges which were made to the colonists, and which have been abundantly ratified by successive administrations, upon which these colonists have taken their stand, and upon the security on which they have made their homes and invested their capital in Kenya Colony. In the third place, although because of what I agree is a wise estimate of the present state of affairs, the Government has not seen its way to concede to Kenya which it has conceded to Rhodesia, yet it

  549
  has not deprived the settlers there of the hope to which, in my humble opinion, they are entitled, that in the fullness of time, as the resources of the Colony develop, they may hope to arrive at the end of that stage along which they have already proceeded some distance from the status of a protectorate to the status of a Crown Colony, and finally a self-governing Dominion, as Rhodesia now is in a position to be.
  There has been, as one hon. Gentleman said, a good deal of propaganda on both sides. I think we must assume that the case for the Indians is summarised finally in the memorial which they presented to the Prime Minister. I say that their demands are exorbitant. Their aims are based on statements which are untrue, and their aims are very much more ambitious than they are ready to confess. First of all they say the subject
  "is already the cause of grave discontent in India and a strong weapon in the hands of the natives whose object it is to decry and destroy the British connection."
  It is only the persons who so decry and destroy the British connection who feel any substantial discontent. I am persuaded that the discontent is felt only amongst political agitators in India and that the enormous mass of the 350,000,000 persons there will feel less excitement over this than they felt over the Salt Tax, and that was precious little indeed. Secondly, they say that
  "this is a violation of a series of Proclamations beginning with Charles II and ending with George V.
  "I am not prepared to extend my historical researches quite as far back as the Merry Monarch, but I think he was probably more occupied with Lady Castlemaine than with the state of affairs in Kenya Colony.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY:The rising hope of the Tory party‡
  Mr. BANKS: Nobody who investigates these proclamations impartially and carefully can come to any other conclusion than that they were never intended to apply outside India. In the second place, the Proclamations are definitely qualified and limited by the aptitude of the Indians for political life. If you are going to take the wider view contended for by the Indian Delegation it would make nonsense of the thing, because
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  their claims would be at variance with the facts. What are the facts? These Indians are asking to have throughout the Dominions political power which they do not yet enjoy in India itself. The Indian Electorate is a mere fraction of the entire population of the country, and that is because the percentage of persons in the entire population of the country who have sufficient intelligence to be electors is absolutely insignificant. Out of, I think, in British India, 250,000,000 persons, there are only 5,000,000 electors, and few of these had sufficient interest or sufficient comprehension to record their votes at the last election.
  We come to the question of the franchise. What is the franchise? It is the Communal franchise, and the reason why it is that is this: because a Mohammed an cannot represent a Hindu nor can a Hindu represent a Mohammedan. Then how, in the name of all that is reasonable, are we to suggest that either of them, in these circumstances, could ever represent a European? That is why in a place like Kenya you must have a communal franchise like that of India. But these gentlemen go further, and they base their claim to perfect social and political equality on the services of India in the War. It is a good thing they do not say too much about the services of Indians in Kenya. Out of a population of 20,000Indians in Kenya, 1,383 joined the forces, and of these 376 were combatants. Nobody was killed. Nobody was wounded. Nobody died of wounds, but five were executed for treachery. That was the contribution of Kenya to the War. Of course the memorial goes further than that, and they ask the House to consider the services of the Punjabis, the Sikhs, and the other Indian races who fought all over the world. These were—
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Has the hon. and learned Member ever heard of the Indian troops in East Africa?
  Mr. BANKS: Yes, certainly, I was about to come to that, and refer to the distinguished services rendered by the regular Indian Army.
  Mr. J. HOPE SIMPSON: May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman where he got that list as to the number of killed and wounded, and the particulars of the five men executed for treachery?
  Mr. BANKS: It has been recorded in the Press. [Interruption, and HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw‡"] I do not mean to withdraw what I have said. It has never been challenged and I am perfectly convinced it is accurate. If anyone challenges the statement, they can state their grounds for so doing. When we come to the question of the regular Indian soldiers to whom reference has been made, we find they have served all over the world, and I am convinced that they are perfectly satisfied with the service, pay, and pensions they get. If it was suggested that these Indian soldiers who actually served in the Army should have some special political privileges accorded to them I would not particularly object, but it is the persons who did least in India—as elsewhere—and just as in this country ‡—people who supported the conscientious objectors, and organised strikes against munitions, who are now most sentimental about the ex-service men, and say that those in India who did nothing whatever should reap the reward of the valour of those who fell. [Interruption.]
  Mr. LANSBURY: We will take the old men first next time.
  Mr. BANKS: It is on these grounds that claims to political equality in Kenya are being pressed. The third claim is that they were pioneers and commenced to make the colony what it is. That is a monstrous and preposterous claim—
  "Made the colony what it is."
  We are all well aware there were Indian traders who settled long ago on the coast strip still the territory of the Sultan of Zanzibar—many years before the white man. How did they settle? As pioneers of the development of the resources of the country? Did they really penetrate into the Hinterland among the fighting tribes? No. They were there as the jackals of the Arab slave trader. That is abundantly established by the despatches of the Consul-General at Zanzibar to the late Lord Salisbury. Thirty years ago, in 1888, Colonel Euan Smith, writing home, said:
  "The trade in arms and ammunition is at present entirely in the hands of the British Indian subjects. It is through these British India merchants that the Arabs and chiefs in the interior are supplied with all these arms and ammunition."
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  There is abundant evidence to the same effect. They were never given to real pioneer work. Can hon. Gentlemen opposite give me one case? In the year 1900 there was not one Indian in Ukamba, which is the centre of the Kenya Colony. We know that the reason there are so many Indians in Kenya is on account of the influx of coolies working upon the railways. The railway was built by British capital, under British surveyors, by British enterprise, and if they are to claim that they have opened up the country by building the railway in Kenya, I suppose we shall have the compositor who sets up in type the speech of the Prime Minister claiming credit for the composition of the speech‡ All these facts or statements of facts—which are false—are those upon which the Indians claim to outvote the European and inundate the lands on which he has settled. Let me examine that proposition and see whether it is established. It may be true that at the present time there are very few Indians in Kenya who could pass the test of a necessary property or educational qualification which might be imposed. Perhaps half the Indians there are British Indians. I should say as many have come from Native States as from British India: they do not exercise the franchise in their own country. Of the other half how many do you suppose are domiciled in Kenya?
  When hon. Members allude to the Resolution of the Imperial Conference of 1921, which repeats the Resolution of 1918, they should remember that it only proposes equal political rights to those Indians who are domiciled there. That is quite a different thing to giving it to birds of passage who come out perhaps to lend money or sell grain. There cannot be more than about 1,000 domiciled Indians there altogether. Do you suppose that those at the back of this agitation are going to be content with that? Not for a moment. Mr. Disai, a supporter of Gandhi, approved of the boycott of the Duke of Connaught's tour, and do you suppose that his ambitions are going to be limited to the enfrandisement of a few Indians in Kenya? Mr. Jeevanjee in 1919 said:
  "I would go so far as to advocate the annexation of this Kenya territory with Provisional Government under the Indian Viceroy. Let it be opened to us, and in a very few years it will be a second India."

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  That is a far more ambitious design. On this point let me call in the evidence of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He was a member of the Standing Joint Committee in 1921, which considered the despatch from the Indian Government upon the question of the reforms, and he said:
  "We feel that the grant to Indians in Kenya of equal rights might lead to the absorption in due course of the whole Government of the Colony, and in fact this was quite definitely suggested as being their ultimate aim by witnesses claiming to speak on behalf of Indian opinion."
  Predominance and not equality is their claim based on a fabrication, and let mo tell the hon. and gallant Member for New-castle-under-Lyme that all this is backed by threats. What an appalling attitude of impertinence under these circumstances for the Colonists to say that they would leave the Empire‡ But this document further says:
  "If India cannot depend, to the fullest extent, on the good faith of the Imperial Government in fulfilling the pledges given from the Throne, and protecting with that compromise the rights of Indians as equal subjects of the King Emperor, her interest in the Imperial connection ceases to exist. For, on such conditions, there is clearly no self-respecting future for India within the British Empire."
  Even if their improvements were limited to political equality I should demur to that because I think hon. Gentlemen opposite make one mistake and it is a grave one when talking about political equality. They assume that there is such a thing as an Indian race, but that is a myth and there is not an Indian race. There are dozens of races in India all different in religion, culture, and language and in everything else that sets a gulf between one man and another.
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: I hope I differ from you.
  Mr. BANKS: On this point I think I can leave myself to the judgment of hon. Members of this House, because that is a statement of such an elementary truth that anybody who contradicts it only exposes his own ignorance. That is one of the reasons why you have to have a communal franchise in India, because these different races are incapable of understanding one another or representing one another, and when they meet, with the assistance of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, to chatter
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  sedition, then they have to address one another in English, because they cannot understand one another's tongue. Upon this question of political equality it may be that you get in the highest type of Indian a man who, intellectually and spirtually, may be the superior of the Englishman. Many of my own Indian friends are men of the highest possible intelligence. [An hon. Member: "Your Friend‡"] Yes, I commanded Indian troops for two years, and I had amongst them some friends who would be prepared to die for me, as well as to talk for me, or vote for me.
  While I am prepared to admit that many of those men are spiritually and intellectually the superiors of many of those who call themselves civilised over here—[An HON. MEMBER: "Over there‡"]—I am not speaking of any particular quarter of the House, and hon. Members may classify according to their own caprice. The most enlightened type of Indian may be our equal or superior in intelligence and spirituality, but he is not our equal in political experience. When Chatham, Burke, Fox, and Pitt adorned this House, India was politically in the age of the Heptarchy, but because a few thousand Indians have swallowed our political formulas—which is giving them indigestion—that does not mean that every Indian Bunnia who can pass an examination is on the political level of the European.
  Let us get rid of phrases and grasp the truth. When I see these apostles in equality in India associating with the untouchables, and having a drink with the sweeper, then and not until then, will I begin to believe in their sincerity. With regard to the reservation of the Highlands, it has not been seriously discussed and is res judicata. It has been amply argued in the White Paper, and it is sufficient to say that these Indians who are said to be anxious about going to this part of the Colony probably are not anxious because they really want to live there, but simply because they want to assert the right to do so. That right you cannot admit unless you are prepared to admit that the people who first colonise and develop a district are to have no special privilege in return for their enterprise over those who may flow in afterwards by petty trade and commerce, and reap the fruits of the efforts made by others.

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  With regard to representation, my first criticism is that I cannot see why the Government has added one more Indian member to the Legislative Council. I do not know why the Indians should have five members, except it is done on the principle of the nervous bridge-player who was asked whether he discarded from weakness or strength, and he said he discarded from fright. There does not seem to me to be any other particular reason. Take the case of the Arabs. There are 10,000 Arabs all domiciled in Kenya, and originally they were the dominant people there. They have to be content with one elected member and one nominated member on the Council. The Indians are to be accorded five representatives, not because they are more important, but because they are more importunate. The document from which I have been reading further states that
  "Indians have nothing to learn in matters of personal cleanliness and hygiene and sanitary habits from the West."
  Those who formed their opinions of Indians from a visit to Battersea may believe that, but those who have lived a little while in Benares will not believe it. Those Members who have served in India may have seen the cholera and the plague in India, and they know that those diseases are endemic in the native city. In India Indians and ourselves always live as much apart as we can, but of necessity a certain proximity is unavoidable and many have paid for that proximity by the loss of a child or a wife. In India we have our duty to do and we have to face those things, and facing cholera and plague is part of it, but if the Europeans of Kenya protest that it is no part of their duty to expose themselves to such dangers, I have a great deal of sympathy with them.
  These gentlemen are determined to be insulted, and it is part of the same old strategy to ask for what they know is an impossible thing, and then say that their loyalty depends upon our compliance with their demands This is not a question of superiority or inferiority; it is not even a question of equality. You are not only trying to make men equal but identical, and they are not identical. All the habits of the Indians are so different to the habits of Europeans that it is almost impossible for them to live
  556
  happily together. It is simply a question f inability to like the same thing. The fragrance of Ghi is usually abominable to English nostrils. And on the other hand the Englishman likes a joint of roast pork, and considers that it is delicious, but the same dish is an abomination to the Indian. How can the man who hates Ghi and the man who hates Pork be happy in the same street? They are not separated by walls and fences as they are in England. Why do Englishmen in India send their children over to this country about the age of six years? Simply because a child of six in India is generally made familiar with things which we only tell our children here at the age of 16. They cannot play together. They cannot be happy together. Therefore, say what you like, segregation must, in fact, take place, not because we want to quarrel with one another, but because we want to get on well together. It is the point of contact that is the point of friction. So long as he lives in his own way and so long as we do the same we can love one another, but if we are to be forced to live together hugger-mugger it can lead to nothing but bad blood and further ill-feeling. I wish the Government had recognised that explicitly in the clause upon segregation instead of putting it into Regulations about sanitation, buildings and police, which are likely to prove equally, if not more, troublesome than if the principle had been recognised straighforwardly.
  I want to refer to a remark which fell from the lips of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies. He said, and well said, that to avoid racial animosity in the Empire is of the utmost importance. Of course it is, but if it is going to be suggested that the best way of avoiding animosity in the Empire is to say that the race which made the Empire shall not stand on any higher level than any other race in it then I must humbly demur. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme said he had had a conversation with some publicist who had been indecent enough to say, "I stand by my race." I make no apology for doing that in this House, or for ranging myself alongside that publicist. India is one of our achievements. Let hon. Members who dissent from that statement read their history. Never mind the root of

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  our title. Circumstances took us there. What have we done there?
  Mr. LANSBURY: Loot‡
  Mr. BANKS: What is India to-day? When all is said and done, it is a well-governed country with a prosperous people on the high road to that autonomy which we have promised and which we shall give, and which we have given it the education and opportunity to achieve. Of course, I know that my point of view will not coincide with the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Theirs is a very simple one. It has the merit of simplicity. It is that wherever you find the British colonist, the British soldier, or the British official you must assume that he is necessarily narrow-minded and selfish if not brutal and false. I noticed in his speech an hon. Member suggested that Sir Robert Coryndon, because he took the side of the settlers was a bad Governor. He said he was a South African rightly or wrongly, and his point of view was the point of view of the Colonists of Kenya; therefore the hon. Gentleman condemned him and wants in his place a gentleman of vast experience of native tribes and questions which can only be acquired in Downing Street.
  Is it not rather ridiculous that because some hon. Members opposite choose to refer to our rational ensign as a dirty rag, we should be expected to assume an apologetic manner whenever we refer to the achievements of our race? I do not say that our race is impeccable. No race is, but you can travel the world over, and wherever you find that disparaged rag flying you will find mere prosperity, more humanity and more enlightened government than you will find in any other quarter of the globe. If our record is not stainless, it is yet unrivalled among the Empires of the world, and I have no apology to offer either for my pride in its past or for my confidence in its future. The days when arrogance and self-satisfaction were our national failings are past. They have been succeeded (hon. Members opposite have seen to it that they should), by a habit of disparaging and belittling all British ideas. That is not true chivalry. It is mere political perversity. The danger in the future is not too much self confidence but too little: not too much pride, but of being ashamed of something of which we have no reason to be ashamed. If I may, I will con-
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  clude my speech, in antique fashion, with a quotation from a poet—
  "We sailed wherever a ship could sail,
  We founded many a mighty State,
  God grant our greatness may not fail
  From craven fears of being great."
  Mr. CHARLES ROBERTS: I dare say the Government are grateful to the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken
  for his support, but I am rather doubtful whether the Under-Secretary for the Colonies is very grateful for the language in which he conveyed that support, and I shall be very much surprised indeed if the Under Secretary for India was very gratified by some of the language which he used. The learned ex-Justice of Kenya (Sir R. Hamilton), in an earlier speech, began by saying we ought to make an attempt in this Debate to try and understand the point of view of the other side. I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken made any approach to that in his little niggling debating points, or by showing in that spirit of true British Philistinism that he is incapable of understanding the British Indians and their characteristics. There is only one sense in which I support the policy of segregation. I think hon. Members who are afflicted by race consciousness to the extent that the hon: and learned Gentleman is had far better have nothing whatever to do with India, with Indian questions, or with the Indian people. There are some people who are taken that way by colour and race prejudice, and the best one can hope for them is that they will live in a racial pen by themselves and leave these difficult and delicate question uninflamed by their observations. I think it was General Gordon who said that the first secret in government was to try and get into the other man's skin. I do not detect the faintest sign in the speech of the hon. and learned Member of any attempt to do that.
  I think that to a discussion of this kind we ought really to devote the whole day. We have the Under-Secretary for the Colonies surveying the world—surveying the Colonial Empire from Jamaica to Fiji, and devoting perhaps a quarter of an hour to each Continent. There is a vast mass of questions which have to be dealt with together. It is unfortunate

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  but there is one consolation in the matter that it does bring home to us that this Kenya guestion is one which has to be discussed in the light of the Empire and of the whole Imperial position, and that it is not a separate question by itself. It raises any number of Imperial problems, it affects our Imperial position in Africa and in India itself, and when all is said and done the British Empire is a great deal larger than Kenya and there is more to be considered than the interests of 10,000 European settlers, of 2,000,000 Africans, and of 20,000 Indians. I am afraid I have several points to put before the Under-Secretary before I deal with the Kenya question, in the first place I venture to think we are getting, in our administration of the opium question, out of touch with the best and most enlightened opinion on the subject. We have the Americans pressing us to curtail our production of opium in India to strictly medicinal and quasi-medical requirements, but at places like Singapore we find the authorities raising 37 per cent. of their income from opium, and in the Malay States they are raising nearly as much I hope the Under-Secretary for the Colonies will consider how far he can restrict this production, and at any rate stop opium smoking, which is condemned by everyone. I am quite certain a great-deal more ought to be done, but I merely mention the matter now as I know many other hon. Members wish to speak and I do not desire to trespass too long on the attention of the House.
  8.0 P.M
  Then I also want to join in the congratulations to the Under-Secretary upon his Rhodesian settlement. I have no great enthusiasm for prolonged litigation. We did point out the dangers of a compromise. We were anxious to make it clear that it should be a settlement which should not lead to new points
  involving commissions or further litigation. I do not think it is too onerous for the British taxpayer, considering what we get out of it. I hope the Secretary of State, now that he has got the reserves of native land under his own control, will provide ample reserves for the Africans, and give them some chance, also, of purchasing land outside the reserves, at all events to some extent. In addition to that, I would suggest that it might be well to set up some kind of land board or commis-
  560
  sion—I do not mean merely a commission which would watch over transfers and see that titles to African land were kept in proper order, but a commission which would study the best method of developing native lands and native production thereon. I think there used to be a feeling, certainly in India, that it was best not to interfere with the hereditary habits of the native cultivator, and that improvements were impossible; but we have got far away from that now. I think that, if we do not ask for too much, if we do not expect too great advances in machinery, if we go slowly and are content to proceed gradually step by step, a considerable amount can be done in the development of native production.
  With reference to the Rhodesian question, I hope that the principle laid down in Rhodesia will be kept in regard to the native franchise, and I think that franchise might well be extended to the rest of the African territories. I also want to put it to the Government that the principle of nominating an unofficial representative to look after the interests of native Africans on the Legislative Council is one that might well be considered. Such representative might be a missionary, or someone with some special interest in the welfare of the Africans. With regard to West Africa, I agree with a good deal of what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) about the export duties, though I do not think I would commit myself to countersigning all the hon. and gallant Member's figures. Some of them were rather illustrative than accurate, and I do not want to push the matter too far. I do not think that these export duties can be said to have strangled production, but I do think they have hampered and checked production. I think we can be satisfied with the progress that has been made in West Africa, and I look forward to the development of these tropical countries as one of the sources from which a new accumulation of wealth may come, both to those countries and to the world at large.
  It has been said by some that, with the enormous National Debt that we have at present, we have no such advantage as we had after the Napoleonic Wars when the industrial revolution came. That is partly true, but there is this chance of developing these tropical countries, and I do not think that any system ought to

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  be allowed to develop which will interfere with the production by native Africans on their own land of the products of the country, which we can use as raw materials for our manufactures here. That is a development which would be good for the world at large and for the Africans themselves. I must not go into all the details now, but these duties require a great deal of consideration. I must guard myself against being supposed to think that the only alternative is the development of a new revenue from spirits. I do not in the least agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme on that point. I should have no objection to the matter being inquired into, but the Convention of St. Germain, which prohibited trade spirits, is a lowering of the standard set up for the mandated territories under the Covenant of the League of Nations, and, if we are still further to lower it, to weaken our policy, and find a new revenue by encouraging the importation of gin or other spirits into these countries, it will be very little satisfaction, to my mind, to abolish the export duties in order to get that result. I think you can secure the abolition of the export duties, or, at any rate, their curtailment by 50 per cent., by economies in the Colonies concerned. I cannot believe that when, in one Colony the expense of administration has risen from £2,300,000 to £7,000,000, there is not a real chance for a campaign of economy which would enable that to be done, and I believe that that is the policy which has been asked for by the Chambers of Commerce.
  I was very much interested in what the Undersecretary said about the development of education. Anyone who knows how much has been done for the negroes in the Southern States of America through the influence of the Hampton experiment will welcome everything that the hon. Gentleman says, and I hope that we may anticipate great results from that. It is very difficult to speak on the subject of Kenya without the possibility that one may do a certain amount of harm. I thought that a good deal of what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme was only pouring a little oil on the flames, and I was rather sorry to see that he could not, apparently, resist the temptation of making
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  some party capital out of the situation as he saw it. I do not think it is very wise that we should lay much stress here on wild language which has been used, or extravagant demands which have been made, on one side or the other. In the calmer atmosphere which must, surely, have been induced by all the conferences that have been going on, where each side has been able to put its point of view, and where each side, at all events, has been heard, one would have hoped that there would have emerged some settlement which might, perhaps, have satisfied neither side, where neither side might feel that it had got what it would like, but which both sides could work in a common desire to develop the Colony and promote the good of the Empire as a whole. I agree with the ex-Chief Justice of Kenya, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir E. Hamilton), that at the bottom, so far as the Indian objections are concerned, it is a question of status, a question of the recognition of claims which the Indians think right to put forward. That is, of course, at the bottom of the objection to the communal franchise. I understand that their objection is that it indicates political inferiority of the Indians in the circumstances of the Colony. I realise that, but I cannot help thinking that they overlook two things.
  They overlook, first, the weakness of our ordinary electoral system, which in its working may produce a purely capricious result, under which a minority may get no representation whatever. We all know that that happens in the working of our own system at home. If you have a common electoral roll, and the present system of single-member constituencies, you may quite easily get a situation in which a minority gets, not merely unfair representation, but no representation at all. Where you get blocks of population differing in race, each of them demanding as its right some share of the representation, it is impossible for anyone who knows the working of our present electoral institutions to guarantee that there shall be anything like fair representation. You cannot guarantee any representation of minorities at all under our present system, and it cannot be denied that that is what led Indians themselves in India over and over again to demand communal representation. I know and realise this, for, when I was out in India with Mr.

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  Montagu, one demand after another was pressed by different bodies for communal representation. That was a case which, I am bound to say, the British administrator, accustomed to our political theories, was very reluctant to concede, but the Indians pressed it over and over again on the Government, and got it. When you have the whole Indian polity accepting the principle of communal representation, how can you say, when it is adopted—under different conditions, of course—in Kenya, that the existence of communal representation there is such a vital flaw, such a vicious blot on the whole system that you will not consider the working of a system which includes it. It may be that in Kenya there is a reaction which all Indians do not like, but I am afraid that, when they have pressed that demand under all kinds of conditions in India, it is a little difficult for anyone who knows that development to condemn absolutely and entirely the whole system because the communal system is doubtless theoretically bad.
  I have said that I believe that the real Indian difficulty lies in the fact that they feel that they do not get what they asked for—recognition of India's place in the Empire. Take one illustration—the Land Ordinance Act of 1914, which deals with the question of the alienation of land in the Highlands. In the Land Ordinance Act of 1914 it is laid down that you cannot transfer land to anyone not of pure European descent, except with the Governor's sanction. See what that involves for the Indian looking at it from the Indian point of view. It means that you may sell land to a Bulgarian, a Greek, an ex-enemy, but you must not sell land to an Indian. If you look at it from the point of view of the British Indians asking for recognition of their place in the Empire, is not that a kind of sentence in the Statute Book which does violate their natural feelings? There they do not get the recognition of Imperial citizenship which they ask for.
  As far as segregation is concerned, I was very sorry to hear what the hon. Member, who spoke last, said. Anyone who knows Indian conditions knows that it is absolutely unnecessary to lay down any policy of segregation. When things settle themselves down, this invidious legal bar would be absolutely out of the
  564
  question, and I am very glad that the Government on that point has put its foot down and said that that was impossible. You have somewhat similar conditions in Indian hill stations, such as Ootacamund in the Nilgiris, and no question or demand for segregation has ever been made there, or thought necessary. The thing settles itself, and I think it is a great disaster and a great encouragement to racial ill-feeling that this policy of segregation should ever have been raised.
  I do not know what lines the Indians will take on this question of the settlement. I realise that the settlement is. not what they would like. I see many things in it that would challenge their natural prejudices, and where they would feel that their very natural sentiments have been disregarded, but I notice that those who have spoken as their champions,, the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) and the learned Member for the Orkneys (Sir R. Hamilton), although they have looked at the question from different points of view, have both advised the Indians to accept the settlement. The hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme said it was a slap in the eye, but it would be wise for them to accept it. I cannot help thinking that that is wise advice which should be given by those who care for the development of the Indians and sympathise with their aspirations, and desire to see India advancing on the road of self-government.
  We know quite well that the Indians cannot be satisfied with this settlement. The Government of India has made its. protest. We are told that it is not satisfied. We could hardly imagine that the Indians for whom the Government of India speaks could regard it with satisfaction, and no one is surprised at that, but I think it would be a mistake, perhaps a fatal mistake, for the Indians not to accept it, under protest, pointing out its effects, and pointing out where it seems to fall short. I would appeal to the Under-Secretary, in his reply or behalf of the Government, to show that he does sympathise with the natural desire of these British Indians to feel themselves not merely members of the Colony, but that they are recognised in the Empire as a whole. The principle of African trusteeship which has been laid down is a right and an admirable one. I trust

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  that the franchise in future will be open without any colour bar. As the people advance in education the very small numbers who can be admitted to the franchise at present will gradually increase, and I trust that, with the advancing education of the Africans, that their numbers also will increase on the franchise roll. It is in that spirit that I contemplate a settlement which is not by any means what one would have wished, but which is perhaps all that could be obtained at the present time, and which may be accepted by the Indians under protest in this controversy.
  Sir JOHN HEWETT: I wish to refer to only two points with regard to the Kenya settlement, namely, the question of the franchise and the question of the Highlands. These two points seem to me to constitute the crux of all the disputes that have been so prolonged between the European settlers and the Indians in Kenya. The claim of the Indian is based in both cases on the principle that there must be equality of status throughout the Empire in the case of every member of the Empire, and that there is no justification in any colony or protectorate for giving the British Indians an inferior status to that of any other member of the Empire. I support the decision of the Government in this case, because I think it is a very reasonable one, based on careful consideration of a very difficult problem. I have too great an affection for India and its people, and I owe India and its people too much, for me to be ready to give my support to any scheme which would, in my opinion, brand them with the stigma of inferiority, and it is because I believe that this settlement does not have that effect that I give it my whole-hearted support.
  I differ entirely from the preference expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) for the common as against the communal franchise in Kenya. I repudiate particularly the assertion which he made that the Government had been driven to support the communal franchise by fear. I believe there is no foundation for that suggestion. I believe that communal franchise can be justified by cold, hard reason, and it is owing to that fact that I give the communal franchise my support over the common franchise. It will take me a little time to give the reasons why I favour the
  566
  communal franchise, and I beg the indulgence of the Committee while I attempt to do so. I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the Indian society in Kenya has not within it the gradations which you find in Indian society in India, whether the city, the town, or the village. You find in India representatives of the landowning classes, the cultured and political classes, the merchants who are carrying on business and those who have retired. You find Indians who are fond of sport, and you find large religious societies, with the Pandit priest for the-Hindus, and the Maulavi for the Mahommedans, while in the villages you have a very large agricultural class constituting three-quarters of the whole population, and in the provinces in which I last served in India 66 per cent. of the whole population. These are the men from whom the Indian Army is recruited. They are the men from whom the police are recruited both in India and in other parts of the Dominions. In Kenya you will not find a single Indian agriculturist. You will find a very different society from that to be found in India, You find a commercial class, mainly consisting of very small traders, You find a class of clerks, most of them under five years' agreement, and many of them but resident even in the native States of India, but coming from Portuguese India. You find a number of artisans and carpenters, who form the great majority of the Indian population in Kenya. The great majority of these men have really no desire for a vote at all, and if they went back to India they would not get the vote, and what is more, I firmly believe that the Indians who have been agitating to get them a vote in Kenya would not like them coming back to get the vote.
  We have in Kenya 25,000 Indians. 12,500 of them come from British India, 10,000 from the native States and 2,500 Goanese from Portuguese India, Is this the sort of population into which to import common franchise when one does not exist in India at all? In India, there are people who denounce the communal franchise, but the fact remains that opinion is much more strongly in favour of the communal franchise in India now than it ever was, and only the other day, in a discussion on this very

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  question of the Indian status in Kenya, several Mahommedans and one Sikh in the Legislative Assembly roundly asserted the benefits of communal representation and denounced a Madrassi Brahman who spoke in favour of a common suffrage. I should like to ask whether it is reasonable that any portion of the 10,000 men from the native States of India should be given the franchise as British Indians in Kenya when they will have no franchise at all when they go back. I should also like to ask whether it is reasonable that Indian females who have not yet got the vote in India, though I myself am in favour of the most intellectual of them getting it, and gave evidence to that effect before the Joint Committee of the two Houses on the Reform Bill, should receive a vote in Kenya when they have no vote in India. I should also like to ask why an Indian lady in Kenya of the age of 21 should receive a vote when English women in our own country do not get it until they are 30, which I think is a great shame. For all these reasons I urge that there is a very strong case against a common suffrage in Kenya, and I cannot see that there is any ground whatever for the Indians saying that not to give a common suffrage is equivalent to treating them as inferior people. It is nothing of the kind. They have no right, it seems to me, to claim anything more in Kenya than they have in India, It is very difficult for Indians who regard communal representation in India as absolutely necessary to contend that it is going to be an indignity to have to submit to it in Kenya. There is also, it seems to me, a very strong argument, and one which to my mind settles the whole matter, as regards communal suffrage. The Government has stated that it is its paramount duty to look after the Africans. There are 2,500,000 Africans in Kenya. When they get the vote how on earth are the Europeans and the Indians to be given a vote at all unless they are given it by communal representation? For these reasons I think we should be committing a great mistake if at present, in the present conditions of Kenya, we were to endeavour to stabilise a common vote there.
  I turn to the question of the Highlands. I know there is a very general
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  feeling that the decision of the Government should be accepted, but I should like to give my reasons for thinking that that decision is a thoroughly sound one. The Highlands consist of a large tract at an altitude of from 5,000 to 8,000 feet. They correspond to the country described in India as the hills. The climate of the hills in India is not liked by the ordinary Indian, and residence there is distinctly distasteful. I believe the same is the case in Kenya. The Indian, to my mind, does not wish to be able to purchase land in Kenya in order to cultivate it himself, or to supervise the cultivation of it. He wants to purchase it with the very laudable ambition of making money out of it, and what he resents is that he cannot take advantage of an opportunity of making money. He also thinks it a slight that he cannot buy land where Europeans can, but has he any ground for saying that this is invidious treatment, which implies that he is being treated as an inferior? I think not. In India no European can purchase any land in most of the Indian States, and if there are a few of them in which purchase is permitted to individual Europeans, the process is bound up by so many restrictions that there is really no opportunity of effecting it. If Europeans are subject TO this restriction in India, is it reasonable to say that if you subject the Indians in Kenya to similar restrictions you are treating them as inferiors? The fact is that the Highlands are the only place in which Europeans can live and bring up their children, and can enjoy the domestic life which is so often denied to European settlers in the tropics.
  I cannot help thinking that if it had been explained to the Indian population what were the real aims of the Europeans in the Highlands there might have been little or no opposition to this restriction. What the European wants is to have a group of farms nestling in a township where he and his family can go to market, can attend chapel or church, find a hospital in case of illness, obtain education for his children and get most of those amenities of domestic life which he loses if he lives in isolation in a far-off country. If anyone of another race takes a farm within the group, it naturally tends to destroy the harmony and interferes with the objects of the little community. I do not believe that the taking of a farm in the Highlands by

  569
  an Indian would cause more trouble than the taking of a farm there by a Greek, of whom there are many in East Africa, and it Has occurred to me that the feelings of the Indians as regards this particular matter might be modified if the order regarding the purchase and transfer of land in the Highlands were somewhat altered so as to limit the land to British holders.
  We have got to remember that among these people there are no fewer than 2,500 ex-service men. I believe that this feeling of patriotism is one of the best inducements which could be given to them to carry out in the highlands of East Africa the work which is going a long way to help our Empire in that country. I think that the settlement which has been effected will be accepted by both parties. I dare say that it may not be accepted in its entirety by either of them at first, but I do believe that it will come to be regarded as a good settlement before very long, and that both parties will be able to feel drawn to work together for the advancement of the Empire. It does not cause me much concern that the Government of India have not agreed to this settlement, because I cannot feel, after reading all the papers, that the Government of India have treated this subject in altogether a judicious or judicial manner.
  Neither the Indian nor the European settler can pose as the trustee of the African. It is only, I think, in both cases recently that a very active interest in the African has been developed. The Government now announce that the great problem in Kenya is the problem of looking after the African population. I believe that, in the decision which is now come to, there will be nothing to hamper this matter receiving proper consideration and being dealt with in the way in which it should be dealt with. Had either of the parties to this dispute receive their claims in full, there might have been difficulties when the time came to size up the African situation. It has not come yet, but when it does come the Government will be free, whatever party may be in power, to act in the very best way for the African. I feel confident that not only the African, but also all those who have his interests at heart, will feel that the British Government will, when the
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  time comes, act with justice and equity in the settlement of all matters connected with the African situation. I hope sincerely, now that this decision has been come to, that this Government and successive Governments will retain it intact, so that, when the time comes to solve this great problem in regard to Kenya, there may be found nothing on record as between the Indians and the Europeans which will hamper a settlement of the question.
  Sir WILLIAM COTTS: This is my maiden speech, and I claim the usual indulgence of the House. I feel sure that I shall require it all. I want to refer briefly to two matters. The first is emigration and the second is the Imperial Conference. As Member for the Western Isles, I could not let this occasion pass without raising the question of emigration, particularly as upwards of 600 men, women and children have gone from my constituency to Canada since the beginning of this year. Not all went willingly. Many of them went with very bitter feelings in their hearts that the promises made with regard to land settlement had not been fulfilled, and, sick at heart, they got tired waiting and were determined to try their fortune in another land. It is bad for the Empire that they should go with bitterness in their hearts. Even though they may prosper, as they nearly all do, they never forget.
  It must not be forgotten that there has always been a large and natural flow of emigration. It is not new. Certain things are responsible for emigration. For instance ambition. This applies not only to those who are thinking of settling in another land, but they also take into consideration the future prospects of their children. In addition, however, they are not directed by sentiment to any particular place, the advantages of all countries being weighed in the balance. In the past, unfortunately, a great many of those who have gone from this country have gone to countries outside the British Empire. Another motive power which has considerable influence is the desire for adventure. In this group there is a very large number of unattached men and women who go away with a view to seeing the world, hoping that one day they will return home again. From this group a very big proportion of our very best settlers is drawn. Then there is the

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  domestic situation that compels emigration, and from this the greater number of emigrants is drawn. It is this natural expansion that has made the British Empire.
  For nearly seven years the War stopped this natural flow, and in spite of the wastage of war our population increased much more rapidly than it did before the War. The increase of population in the Dominions was naturally checked, and it has been calculated that, as a result of the War, the population of the Dominions is about 2,000,000 less and that of the British Isles is about 1,000,000 more than it otherwise would have been. Before the War, about 500,000 people, at least, left this country every year. This was about the natural increase of population, and has been reduced by about one-fifth. Owing to the fact that about 1,000 people per day come to a workable age in this country, and to the amount of unemployment now existing, it means that unless some course is taken to keep the population at a normal number our difficulties will grow instead of diminishing. Immigration within the Empire seems to be the only natural and logical remedy for this state of affairs. It has been said that this country is a fine one to live in, but there are others within the Empire better adapted for making a living.
  No one desires to see his relatives and friends leave these shores, but, taking the situation as it is to-day, it surely is better to maintain one's spirit of independence, and to take advantage of the facilities that are being offered for migration to other parts of the Empire, than to wait for the slow process of trade recovery at home. I know there are two sides to the problem—the home and the Imperial side. As regards the home side, I cannot now discuss the shortcomings of our attempts to relieve unemployment by land settlement and by the development of our latent resources. I merely mention it to show that in dwelling on the Imperial side I do not lose sight of the other responsibility. Recently the various Dominions have made agreements with the Overseas Committee regarding assisted passages. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have all entered into certain arrangements with a view to
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  permanent settlement. Land is the chief asset which our friends beyond the seas have to offer, and no man with so-called land hunger need go without if he be willing to work. As I have stated, I have had some direct experience of emigration to Canada, and I felt it my duty to ascertain what provision was being made in regard to my constituents. I can testify to the great trouble taken by the Dominion Government of Canada and by the Government of Ontario.
  The other subject to which I wish to refer is the Imperial Conference, which will assemble in London in the autumn. It is impossible to attach too much importance to this Conference. It concerns the lives and development, directly and indirectly, of about 18,000,000 white people in the self-governing Dominions of the British Empire. Its progress during the last generation has been phenomenal, and proves conclusively what an extraordinary thing the British Constitution really is, and how capable it is of accommodating itself to changing conditions. The Imperial Conference is the Council of the Cabinets of the Empire, without either legislative or executive power; yet it works and produces most valuable results, both in legislation and in administration, throughout the British Empire. Its benefits can be seen in such various subjects as defence, foreign affairs, postal and telegraphic communication, transport facilities, Empire settlement, nationalisation law, Income Tax adjustment, and so forth. Theoretical Constitution makers would laugh to scorn at the machinery by which the British Empire is governed. They would give us a rigid and cast-iron system, which would break up the Empire within a short time. Our system works. Why? Because the motive power within it is good will. The Empire is based on good will. It would not be worth maintaining if it were not.
  The function of the Imperial Conference is to inform and guide political opinion within the Empire. It has done most valuable work in the past, and I do not think its constitution could be changed without danger. It consists of the Prime Ministers who are responsible for shaping both the legislative and administrative policy of their respective Dominions. Of necessity, only the parties in power are represented; it is like a Cabinet Council,

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  in which other political parties cannot be represented. I think it is essential that we should seek means of extending and developing the influence of these Conferences. I make two suggestions. I submit that the time has come when the distinguished statesmen who form this Imperial Cabinet or Conference should be entitled to appear in the Imperial Parliament, in either House, and to take part in the discussions on Empire policy. This firsthand contact would have a powerful effect both in this House and in the country.
  Secondly, the Imperial Conference is always held in London. Could it not be supplemented by a series of less official inter-Parliamentary visits and conferences? Would it not be possible to ask the Dominion Parliaments to send representatives to this country, to hold some informal conferences with Members of this Parliament next year, in connection with the British Empire Exhibition? The Empire Parliamentary Association is doing excellent work along those lines, but the Government might do more. Why should not a delegation from each of the parties of this House be sent to visit some part of the British Empire each year, and in that way gain a first-hand knowledge? I speak from an intimate knowledge of our Dominions, and I feel assured that these suggestions I have given, if acted upon, would promote progress and good will throughout the Empire.
  Captain FOXCROFT: In common with a great many other Members of the Committee, I feel rather disappointed that the Under-Secretary has said nothing about Palestine, and I do not therefore apologise for intervening myself to say something about, that country. I should remind the Committee that the population of Palestine is not Jewish. It is and has been for many hundreds of years from 90 to 92 per cent. Mahommedan Arab, and I think neglect of this fact has been responsible for what can only be described as the present deplorable situation in Palestine. May I briefly sketch our relations with the Arabs and especially the Palestinian Arabs since before the Armistice to the present moment. Long before the War there was no European nation more popular or more trusted among the Arabs than the British, and in 1915 the Sherif of Mecca was only too glad to conclude an alliance with us, largely because he said the Arabian people
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  among whom he dwelt were determined if possible to be friends with the British. This desire for friendship with the British was even more strikingly evinced during our advance in Palestine. We were received at the opening of our campaign with open arms by the Palestinians. They treated us not as conquerors but as deliverers, and the inhabitants came to meet us—men, women, and children with fruit and flowers in their hands. Before we had been many months, possibly not many weeks, in Palestine, the Commander-in-Chief of the Turks actually threatened to pull down Gaza stone by stone, because he said the inhabitants were all "British." When the Armistice came there was but one feeling from Dan to Beersheba, and it was that the British must remain in Palestine and help to guide the Palestinians along the path of good government towards peace, progress and prosperity. When I asked a leading Palestinian why they wanted us to remain, he said: "Because we consider the British people are a good people." I asked him what he meant by a good people and he said, "You are a people who, if you govern another people, do so in order that you may help them and not in order that you may gain advantage for yourselves."
  9.0 P.M
  That was the situation at the time of the Armistice. What is the situation to-day after four years of British administration? Everywhere distrust and simmering unrest. We have had two deputations elected by the Christians and by the Arabs and, I believe, also representing largely the feeling of the resident Jews. These deputations have been sent to this country to voice the grievances of the Palestinian Arabs and Christians, and both have returned to their own country absolutely unsatisfied. I am told a third deputation has actually arrived within the last few days. In addition to this, the constitution which we offered to the Palestinians during the past few months was looked upon by them with such distrust and dislike that I it had to be withdrawn. What is the reason for this extraordinary volte face of the Palestinians in their attitude towards the British. Why has their affection of four years ago has been turned into something like suspicion? Why is it that these people who are, per-

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  haps, the most peace-loving and most progressive and certainly the most pro-British of all Arab peoples, who welcomed us with open arms when we invaded their country, are now publicly declaring that they regret the disappearance of the Turk? There is only one reason and that is fear the fear of Zionist domination—the fear that our advent and that our administration are stepping stones to complete political domination by the Zionists. I ask whether there is any real foundation for this fear? I hope there is not. I hoped, before the Debate had concluded, we should have heard from the Under-Secretary something that would have allayed those fears. We have not had that, and I therefore think it is only right that I should marshal, so far as I can, the evidence which is the foundation of those fears. First and foremost we have the Balfour Declaration, which promised a National Home to imported Zionist Jews in a country which is inhabited by a population 93 per cent. Arabs; Arabs who believe that they have been promised self-government twice—once by Treaty, in 1915, and once by Proclamation, in 1918. And side by side with the Balfour Declaration we have the Palestine Zionist Commission, a Commission with its extreme aims and enormous powers. The Arabs hear the spokesmen of that Commission, who practically say that not only are the Zionists soon going to make the desert blossom like the rose, but they are also going to turn Palestine to-morrow into a place as Jewish as England is British to-day.
  Mr. LINFIELD: Who says this?
  Captain FOXCROFT: The leader of the Zionists, Dr. Weizmann, said that, and not only that, but later on a representative of the Zionists, when he was asked what was going to happen to the 93 per cent. of Arabs left in Palestine, said, "They can go to Bagdad or to Mecca, or out there"—pointing to the desert.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I know Dr. Weizmann, and I have discussed matters with him, and he has no such sentiment, and I should like to know the authority for that statement.
  Captain FOXCROFT: It was said by him to a friend of mine in Palestine two
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  years ago. I believe Dr. Weizmann to be an absolutely honest man, and I do not think he will deny that.
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: He does deny it.
  Captain FOXCROFT: That is what he said two years ago. Sir Louis Bols, who was our representative in Palestine, actually considered the Zionist Commission so dangerous that he advised its dissolution, but he was not listened to, and he was succeeded by Sir Herbert Samuel, who, as a Jew and a Zionist, has been described by Zionists as "our Samuel." Sir Herbert has two trusted advisers. One is his Attorney-General, who is a Zionist and a Jew, and I think we might almost say out-Herods Herod in his Zionism, and his other adviser is a gentleman who before he was adviser to Sir Herbert Samuel was secretary of the Palestine Zionist Commission.
  Mr. LINFIELD: Is it an offence to be a Jew?
  Captain FOXCROFT: Next we see that all this results in the Hebrew language, which is the language of only something like 5 per cent. of the inhabitants of Palestine, being elevated to an equality practically with the Arabic language, which is the language of 93 per cent. of the native inhabitants; while behind and beyond all this the Palestinians see enormous economic advantages granted, to whom? To an Englishman? To an Arab? No; to a Russian revolutionary Jew. We have been told by Mr. Winston Churchill that the reason why Mr. Rutenberg should be accepted by the British in the job which he asked for was because no more eligible applicant offered himself. It strikes me that if no more eligible applicant than Mr. Rutenberg offered himself for the job, the British Government might very well have left that job vacant for some time longer. Next to the rather sinister figure of Mr. Rutenberg, we see the far more amiable personality of the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, but here the Palestinians see that the Under-Secretary, when he was in military service, was actually attached to this very Palestinian Zionist Commission, and although we know very well that, being an English gentleman, he would never allow the Zionist prepossessions which he might have gained there to in-

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  terfere with his duties towards the 93 percent. Arab population—
  Mr. LINFI ELD: Why mention it then?
  Captain FOXCROFT:—we cannot expect the Palestinians to recognise this fact. Then we find, parallel to all these things, a continuous, steady stream of immigrant Jews, many of them, until recently, of the most undesirable character. I am told that recently, whilst the quantity has increased, the quality has somewhat improved, and I only hope that is the case, because certainly there was great need of improvement. A gentleman who represents a very friendly Power said to me a short time ago:
  "I am very sorry for the Palestinians that they have this immigration policy forced upon them, but it is an ill-wind that blows nobody any good, and my country realise that, thanks to your policy, their ghettoes are being rid of their most undesirable inhabitants."
  Mr. NEWBOLD: Was that Rumania?
  Captain FOXCROFT: No, it was not. Last, but not least, the Arabs, see the Constitution which has been offered to them, which, on the surface, appears to be more or less representative, but which, in actual effect, will leave the Arabs in a permanent minority. Consequently, they believe that that Constitution is practically a camouflage for maintaining Sir Herbert Samuel in perpetual control, until he shall have so increased the imported Jews by his immigration policy that they may in the end outnumber the Arab inhabitants. I do not pretend to say that possibly some of these fears may not be exaggerated. Anyhow, I think we have sufficient evidence to go upon for the friends of the Arabs to ask the Government if they will actually give a declaration of what their policy is. Some months ago, questions were asked in another place with regard to that policy, and an answer was given by the Secretary of State for the Colonies. That answer practically said that His Majesty's Government intended eventually to give self-government to Palestine, and I think we all agree that, so far as it goes, that declaration is satisfactory, but that declaration, in the opinion of the Palestinians and of those who believe in them, does not go far enough. They say, "It is all very well to tell us you are going eventually to give self-government to Palestine, but, for all we
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  know, that self-government may be held up until you have imported sufficient alien Jews to outnumber the resident inhabitants, and what we want is some guarantee that you are not going to do that."
  I believe it is possible for His Majesty's Government to give some such guarantee. The Arabs are a reasonable people, they lived for many years under the Turks on quite good terms with the resident Jews, and I believe they are quite ready to receive a certain limited number of selected Jews, if those Jews wish to return to the land of their fathers, which most of their countrymen have deserted for the last 2,000 years. I believe that that guarantee could very well be given by His Majesty's Government in the following way: They could, first of all, give control to the Arabs over immigration, and, in the second place, they could give the Arabs a High Commissioner, who would be an ordinary Englishman with no axe to grind, with no Zionist fads, an ordinary Englishman, whose one desire would be to do the best possible for the largest number of the inhabitants of that country.
  Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK:Does the hon. and gallant Member suggest that Sir Herbert Samuel's administration is not absolutely impartial?
  Captain FOXCROFT: If the Noble Lord will wait one moment, I will answer that question. I have a great admiration for Sir Herbert Samuel. I believe that he is an able man and an honest man, but Sir Herbert Samuel is attempting the impossible. He, a Zionist Jew, with Zionist aspirations, is attempting to reconcile those aspirations with doing absolute justice to 93 per cent. of the population who are Arabs which is impossible, and I suggest that Sir Herbert Samuel and his Attorney-General, both of whom are able and, I believe, honest men, might very well be rewarded by His Majesty's, Government by being given, somewhat quickly, promotion to another sphere. You might then have in their place what hon. Members opposite seem to think a most disreputable kind of thing, an ordinary English gentleman, who will have no axe to grind.
  Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK:What does an axe to grind mean?
  Captain FOXCROFT: Exactly what it says—absolutely no intention of doing anything except what, in the opinion of those men, is his duty towards the in habitants of the country over which ha rules.
  Captain BERKELEY: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman believe that Sir Herbert Samuel has an axe to grind?
  Captain FOXCROFT: Certainly, in the shape of his being a Zionist, with Zionist aspirations, and it is impossible to reconcile Zionist aspirations with his duty towards the 93 per cent. Arab population. If His Majesty's Government will grant some such guarantee to these poor, almost friendless Arabs, I believe their unrest will disappear as if by the stroke of a magic wand, and they will once more become the best friends of the British; but I would warn the Government of this, that if they continue what I can only term their somewhat dubious policy, handed down by the Coalition to them, there will be only one end to it. Arab unrest and Arab distrust will increase side by side with a decrease of British prestige, and the evil will not end there, because that evil will, I am perfectly certain, have a serious and most pernicious repercussion throughout the entire East.
  Mr. SNELL: I confess I have a good deal of hesitation in intervening in this Debate lest I should do some injury to the cause for which I speak, because I understand from some speakers on the other side of the House that if anybody from another country consulted us on these benches, or asked our advice, it would prove that they were enemies of this country. When they speak of the settlers of Kenya that, presumably, is all right; it is the natural thing to do. But if we should speak for groups of Indians, who require reforms in their constitution, or for any other group in the outlying parts of our Empire, that would seem to label them as being enemies of this country. That, I venture to say, is a very deplorable suggestion, of which hon. Members on the other side ought to be entirely ashamed. There is, however, just this point, that although the Members of the Labour party may have different ideas of Government, and even as to the ultimate end of our Empire from hon. Gentlemen on the other side, it is conceivable, in the
  580
  long run, that our theory may hold the Empire together, and the other theory may disband it. It is worth while in that connection to point out that the theory advanced by the hon. and learned Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks) has already lost us from our Empire Ireland and Egypt, and if such racial impertinence as he indulged in to-night is repeated very often in this House, it might result in our losing India.
  That 1s all I desire, or trust myself to say upon the matter, but I do ask the attention of the House for one or two minutes to another matter that was mentioned by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, namely, the relation of this country to the Colony of Ceylon. It is not so exciting a subject as Kenya, but it does affect 4½ millions of our fellow-citizens in the Empire, and it is worth while, therefore, that the House should give it some slight attention. The people of Ceylon are engaged in bringing their constitution more closely in accord with the growing capacitiee and progressive culture of their people, and as the constitution is being revised, it is not surprising that the views of certain sections in the community do not entirely agree with the views put forward by His Majesty's Government. One would assume that the purpose of revising the constitution of any part of the Empire would be to make it as good as it possibly could be made, and that any criticisms of plans suggested, so long as they were courteous and helpful, would be welcomed by His Majesty's Government. I shall assume in what I have to say that the principle which should guide us in revising a constitution is that the constitution should be so constructed that it would function efficiently, that it would safeguard the liberties of the people of Ceylon, for instance, and at the same time promote the well-being and protect the interests of the Imperial Government. It should, further, evoke the assent of the great majority of the people who will have to live under the Constitution.
  Now the aim of the Imperial Government, in revising the constitution of Ceylon, should, I suggest, be to build a constitution which is expressive of the national idealism of the great majority of the people of the country, to develop a spirit which is bigger than the spirit of any section within that community, and

  581
  aim at transforming those who are divided into races, tribes and religious sects and interests, into a people; in other words, to create a national spirit so healthy and so strong that it would dominate over the sectional interests and ambitions as they exhibit themselves in different races. What does this constitution which His Majesty's Government are proposing for Ceylon actually do? Is it likely to promote the end that I have described? As a matter of fact, it would seem by its proposals to disregard the fact that the discontent which exists there is a natural thing. After all, racial ideals and racial ambitions are very slow to die, and they accommodate themselves very slowly to national ideals. But this constitution does not gain the assent of the majority of those who will have to live under it, and in that respect is bad. It does not create a people. On the contrary, it would seem to intensify every difference, to separate still further one race from another, and to perpetuate difficulties which it should aim at solving.
  In spite of what has been said on the other side, this all centres in what I regard as the very unwise and dangerous expedient of communal representation. It is seeking to run a community on racial lines for an indefinite period, and there seems to be no justification for this narrow and limited conception of tribal interest. When the electoral principle was established in 1912, the various populations were then formed into an electorate for the purpose of political and administrative representation. That experiment has resulted in no such disadvantage as would justify it being broken up, and the communal system of representation being reestablished. There has been ample evidence of the willingness and the capacity of the people of Ceylon to transcend the racial limitations, and they have shown that by appointing men of different races and different creeds in popular elections to undertake their government. The people of Ceylon very naturally fear at the present time that if this communal representation is imposed upon their colony, with all the racial and tribal jealousies, which it should be the aim and business of the Imperial Government to try to abandon, and if this constitution passes, then we may never expect to have the national spirit developed, but the racial
  582
  needs, and so on, will be intensified. Each group will watch and fight for its own interest, and all kinds of artificial antipathies will be stimulated. What advantage is to be gained by this principle being proposed in this way? It settles no problem, but it does create new problems. It seems as though the intention of His Majesty's Government was to play off one section of the community against the other on the principle of "divide and govern." One knows that that is not the intention of His Majesty's Government, but people looking at it from the island to which it refers may think it is so.
  I would remind the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies that, when he spoke of Ceylon, he said nothing about the position of the Executive Council in the new Constitution that is proposed. There is one deduction to be drawn from the Constitution proposed, to which I desire to draw the attention of the Committee. It appears to me, in certain of its features, to bear a very ominous resemblance to certain features of the Soviet Constitution of Russia, with its nominated members, with its specialised representation and all the other antidemocratic expedients associated with that system. I am a polite person, and all I would venture to say is that my enthusiasm for the Soviet system is under very strict control. It surprises me, but I am sure it must interest the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Newbold) to see certain features of that system imposed upon a Colony against its will by the Imperial Government of the Empire. I, for my part, am content to leave Russia to a monopoly of its own methods and try to conduct our business in the Empire on lines which have been tried and proved by many years of experience. May I try to draw a parallel of what would happen if the same system ruled in our own country. We should be a people not striving for a common purpose but divided into separate groups, each group looking after its own interests. Supposing we had Members elected to this House as Jews and Scots and Irish and Welsh, whether they lived in Scotland or Ireland or Wales or anywhere, just on the point of nationality; or supposing we were the elected as Roman Catholics, or Protestants, or Dissenters, or Sceptics, or whatever we happened to be, the

  583
  nation would lose a good deal. We should be further away from that unity of purpose and outlook we are striving to obtain, and whatever difficulties we have would be intensified If it is our aim in this country to develop that larger fellowship of the nation as a whole, then we have to transcend the boundaries of sects and creeds and races and think of something bigger than that.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, in his speech, said that nothing could be of greater peril than the clash of races, and he told us that the great fellowship of the Empire could not be subordinated to norrow ideals of racial consciousness. These were admirable statements of high principle, and I ask him, in relation to this Constitution of Ceylon, to apply, where he has the power, the advice and the principles he so ably enunciated to this House. I understand the matter is not finally settled, and that in a few weeks the Government will issue a report. Presumably, therefore, the matter is still open, and the final decision is not made. I therefore appeal to the Government to make an earnest attempt to accommodate its views, so far as that is possible, to the views of the representatives of the Ceylon Congress. It may be a bad thing that a majority of a nation should rule, but it is a worse thing that a minority should rule over a majority. This Constitution makes the minority rule the majority. I can understand why His Majesty's Government has introduced that, because it itself rules on a minority vote in this country. [Laughter.] But this matter is too important to be a matter of banter in that sense. I only suggest that an opportunity is now presented for revising a decision come to and for trying to bring into accord both the views of the people of Ceylon, as expressed by the Ceylon Congress, and His Majesty's Government. If that is done, it will make for peace and security abroad; it will supply one example at least of that desire for fair government which hon. Members on the opposite side have said is the prominent feature of our Empire policy.
  Mr. RANKIN: Recent official statements on the future of Mesopotamia have had a stabilising effect and given a respite to argument on either side, but I venture to think the time has not yet come when an
  584
  irrevocable decision can be reached, and that it may well be that the uncertain events of a still uncertain world will fashion our policy anew. I think it is necessary in order to avoid confusion, to try and keep separate in our minds the problem itself as distinct from the methods we employed to deal with it. For it is because these methods have often been mistaken, because administration has been costly, because we have incurred taxation and because the Arabs have displayed discontent that many people in this country have been led to confuse a temporary and passing failure in administration with the abiding problem of a country and a people whose resources are almost without limit, who hold more than one gateway to trade and strategy, and who for centuries have never had a chance. I am sure the question of honour and obligation can safely be left in the hands of the hon. Gentleman who represents the Colonial Office, but I would be interested to know whether he accepts the statement that our obligation is not merely to set up but to maintain the Arab state. However that may be, I am well aware that this question of honour or obligation is capable of widely different and equally sincere interpretations, and I do not for one moment contend that the interpretation of a very junior officer is of any importance to anyone except himself. Yet there are many of us who, in the ordinary routine of duty, and, very probably, upon occasions not unknown to the Under-Secretary for the Colonies himself, were brought into close association with the Arabs whose help, whose supplies, whose news were desired and received. In all probability the word "honour" was never used. If it had been, doubtless it would have lacked authority, but to me, at any rate, despite the very minor rank I held, the cumulative effect of such association of bargains scrupulously kept, of help received, perhaps even of Safety assured, the cumulative unspoken effect of such association meant honour and the fulfilment of an obligation in years to come. Personal association is apt to bias argument, and it is not easy to visualise in terms of cash and taxation the vivid impressions of years of war. I therefore confess that I am not uninfluenced by the recollection of a land

  585
  in many parts so barren that was once so prosperous, that in the words of the old saying, a sparrow might hop from tree to tree from Babylon to the Persian Gulf, or by the recollection of those same barren lands one day barely scratched by the crude, improvised harrow of a battery of field artillery, almost the next sprouting into native corn; or of the tribes patriarchal, almost Biblical, wholly in a stationary stage of civilisation, and beside them the men of the larger cities, men of eminence and ability, possessing a confidence in themselves based, not on superficial assumption of Western culture but on the pride and tradition of their race. And till we came, neither people nor country for centuries ever had a chance. Two things might have brought that chance to fruition had the fates been kinder and mankind more wise. First, had General Maude lived. Second, had private enterprise been encouraged instead of obstructed at a time when it was ready and anxious to come in. With better fortune and greater wisdom the whole history of the past four years might have been very different. Meanwhile the Government have come to their decision. It may be wise though I profoundly differ from it. At any rate, it might have been far worse, I frankly admit that. But most of all am I inclined to believe that even yet it must be modified, perhaps by events still unrevealed. I only hope it may not be too late.
  Mr. LINFIELD: I desire to say something on Ceylon. It is rather unfortunate when on a matter of this kind party interest obtrude, but I may say that, so far as the Under-Secretary is concerned, he has always been ready to listen to views put forward and to give them consideration. I wish for a few moments to put the question from the broad point of view. What we do to-day may affect for good or evil the Colony of Ceylon in the years that are to come. I sincerely hope the Minister will not be influenced too much by the men on the spot. There is a danger always that the man on the spot, the European section, will endeavour to bring an undue weight to bear on the Minister in charge. I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will have an open mind on this question and consider it in all its bearings, and then come to a decision that he himself would feel to be right and just, and in the best interests
  586
  of the inhabitants of the islands and the Empire.
  Our aim should be to equip and assist people to govern themselves. There will be general agreement with that idea. I think also we should be agreed that it is a mistake to encourage racial differences. Ceylon is far ahead of India. It has 50 per cent. of illiterates, and in the matter of social progress the women are freer in Ceylon. I was delighted to hear the Member for Luton (Sir J. Hewett) suggest that he was favourable to the franchise being extended to educated women in India. So far as Ceylon is concerned, there is no segregation as in India. There is no racial exclusiveness. It is true that caste prevails, but it is limited more or less to marriage. People of all castes and of the same social standing meet freely in social intercourse. There is no hostility to Europeans, for I frankly admit that it would not be wise to give self-government to Ceylon or anywhere else where the people were hostile to the Empire. So far as the people of Ceylon are concerned, there has always been a perfectly friendly feeling between the people and Europeans and other foreigners.
  One other point. The people of Ceylon are absolutely loyal. When the Prince of Wales visited the island he had a magnificent reception which contrasted somewhat with the reception that befell him in India. Other reasons might be advanced in favour of the legitimate aspirations of the people being encouraged. We ought to go as far as we possibly can towards self-government for them. A scheme has been promulgated, and I should like to hear that the last word has not been said on the point, for that scheme appears to bear somewhat hardly on the majority in the island. I have the particulars here. There is a population of 3,016,000 Cingalese. It is proposed to give to these 14 seats. There is a population of Europeans, Burghers, Mahommedans and others of 1,456,000. This population is to have 18 seats. If in a matter of this sort you in any way act so as to put the majority in a minority you are bound to have trouble. I want to invite the Under-Secretary to give this matter his most serious attention, for so far as I can gather the people have every desire to come to an amicable settlement. May I make a suggestion. The Southern Pro-

  587
  vinces has 600,000 people, and it has only two members. The Central or North-Western Province has 400,000 of a population, and that is only to have two members. The Northern Province, with 300,000 of a population, has three members, and I wish to suggest to the Under-Secretary that he should grant two further seats, and consider that suggestion also in relation to the Southern Province and the Central or North-Western Province. I suggest this, because I think it will go a long way towards settling this very difficult question. In these matters I think the Government should try and meet the wishes of the people as. far as they can, and I trust the Under-Secretary will sympathetically consider this suggestion. Injustice will always breed discontent, unrest, and agitation, and may I say in all honesty that is what I desire to avoid. I listened with much interest to the speech of the Prime Minister on the 23rd July, and this is what he said, and with great respect I submit it for the consideration of the Under-Secretary. Speaking of the British Empire, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "It is a large assembly of free nations not all of the same kin, or the same colour, but animated largely by a common purpose, and all equally anxious to see extended in every corner of that Empire or Commonwealth those ideas of liberty and justice and freedom which we believe are in our hearts, and which we wish to see spread throughout our Empire and throughout the world.."
  Those are the Prime Minister's words, and I am asking the Government to put them into practice. Here they have an excellent opportunity. The spirit of liberty is really abroad in the land. We have fought for it. When I look at the benches above the Gangway I see many evidences of it here. I remember visiting this House over 25 or 30 years ago, and in those distant days it would have been an unheard of thing for one to suggest that 140 or 150 men who had toiled with their hands could be found in this House.
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is getting a long way from the question before the Committee.
  Mr. LINFIELD: I suggest that this Empire has been built up by that spirit of freedom and liberty, but if the spirit which has been preached to-night by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Banks)
  588
  had prevailed we should not have had any Empire at all. That spirit lost us America, but the spirit of freedom and liberty and self-government has secured for us South Africa and Canada, and the biggest Empire the world has ever seen. I ask the Under-Secretary to do this little bit of Empire building, for it is only a small thing we are asking. We are asking him to satisfy the righteous claims of these people, and I am sure if he will do that he will earn, not only our gratitude, but the gratitude of the people for whom we are speaking.
  TheCHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. J. C. C. Davidson): I think hon. Members will expect some reply to the discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up‡"] I think everyone will agree that we have listened to a most interesting and instructive Debate, and if I am unable 'to deal with all the specific points which have been raised, I can assure hon. Members who have made suggestions that they will receive very careful consideration at the hands of the Department. In the few moments that still remain, perhaps I may be permitted to offer a few general observations, and bring back the Committee to a realisation in general terms of the present position and the trend of Imperial policy. Perhaps the Committee will forgive me if I appear almost platitudinous, but the position as I see it is that, since the War, European markets have been destroyed, and of necessity, if we are to have a trade recovery, we must look, for the moment at any rate, elsewhere. It therefore follows that the problem which faces the Economic Conference, and which faces the Colonial Office in relation to the Crown Colonies, is to find some means of developing markets within the British Empire which will replace those markets which we have lost, although perhaps only temporarily.
  One important sphere of operations in this respect is Africa. We have heard a lot to-day on all sides about the balancing of the Budgets of our Colonies, and of their essential requirements before they can take an active part in a forward policy. Surely the time is coming when private enterprise must take a part, and a greater part in such development. Personally I have no fears, although I am afraid hon. Members opposite shall have the fear that the white settler or the

  589
  white trader will pursue a policy not very remote from the Press Gang of 100 years ago. I have no fear of that under the wise guidance and administration of our great Colonial service in which I have taken a humble part, and in which I have many friends. Under that guidance and under the progressive initiative of individuals and groups of individuals who are anxious to see the native provinces prosper, we shall see a development which will benefit the natives as well as ourselves. I have no fear but that the policy which we are pursuing will prove successful. Remember also that by the service of our Debt to America we have to find many millions a year, and at the same time we have to purchase raw material from America amounting to many millions a year. Every single pound that we can take off the American exchange so much the better for us, especially if it is spent within the British Empire. The development of cotton, sugar and tobacco—all these are matters of the most vital importance, not only in providing our own people here with employment, but they are equally important because if it is essential to purchase these commodities they should be purchased if possible from our own people.
  As has been announced a Committee has been formed at the Colonial Office to inquire into the possibilities of interesting private enterprise in transportation systems in Africa. It would not be proper for me, as a member of that Committee, to give any indications of their intention, but I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under
  Lyme(Colonel Wedgwood) need fear that anything will be contemplated by the Colonial Office in the nature of block land purchase and other matters to which he alluded in his speech. It is a subject for congratulation that the hon. and gallant Member has been converted, in the matter of the Tanganyika land laws to one of the oldest principles of Toryism, namely, peasant proprietorship, which is one of the underlying principles of those land laws which have been in force in Nigeria for a long time. It is the transition stage between tribal ownership and individual ownership, and I was somewhat surprised at the very fervent blessing which the hon. and gallant Member gave it.
  The Under-Secretary for the Colonies has presented to the Committee a very fine review of the labours of the Department. There is one aspect of it which is very satisfactory. It is that it announces three settlements of outstanding differences. We have, in the first place, the Rhodesian settlement, and in the second place, the Kenya settlement, and I think I am voicing the opinion of all sections of the House when I say the less bitterness which is imported into that question the better, because more harm than good will be done. Finally, we have got the Lausanne settlement, and if we continue to pursue the enlightened policy that the present Government is pursuing, we may be sure of maintaining a prosperous Empire.
  Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £101,229, be granted for the said Service."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 297.

  Division No. 310.]

  AYES

  10.0 p. m.

  Adams, D.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Cape, Thomas

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Chapple, W. A.

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Charleton, H. C

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Falconer, J.

  Barnes, A.

  Collison, Levi

  Foot, Isaac

  Batey, Joseph

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Bonwick, A.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Gosling, Harry

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Graham D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Briant, Frank

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Broad, F. A.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Bromfield, William

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Greenall, T.

  Brotherton, J.

  Duncan, C.

  Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Dunnico, H.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Buckle, J.

  Ede, James Chuter

  Groves, T.

  Burgess, S.

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Grundy, T. W.

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Edmonds, G.

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Linfield, F. C.

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Lowth, T.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Lunn, William

  Smillie, Robert

  Hancock, John George

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Harbor, Arthur

  McLaren, Andrew

  Sneil, Harry

  Hardie, George D.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Snowden, Philip

  Harney, E. A.

  March, S.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Spoor, B. G.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Middleton, G.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Hayday, Arthur

  Millar, J. D.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Hemmerde, E. G.

  Morel, E. D.

  Sullivan, J.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Morris, Harold

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby')

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Herriotts, J.

  Muir, John W.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Hill, A.

  Murnin, H.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Hinds, John

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Tout, W. J.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Turner, Ben

  Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wellhead, Richard C.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Oliver, George Harold

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Paling, W.

  Warne, G. H.

  Irving, Dan

  Parker, H. (Henley)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Webb, Sidney

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Weir, L. M.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Potts, John S.

  Westwood, J.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Ritson, J.

  Whiteley, W.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Sakiatvala, S.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Kirkwood, D.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Wright. W.

  Lansbury, George

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Lawson, John James

  Sexton. James

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Leach, W.

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Lee, F.

  Shinwell, Emanuel)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Phillips and Sir A. Marshall.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Bruford, R.

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel) Hempstead)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Bruton, Sir James

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Davies, Thomas (Clrencester)

  Apsley, Lord

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Astor, Viscountess

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Button, H. S.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Cassels, J. D.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Becker, Harry

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Berry, Sir George

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Frece, Sir Waiter de

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Furness, G. J.

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cope, Major William

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Gardiner, James

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Garland, C. S.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  592

  593

  Gould, James C.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Russell, Alexander West-(Tynemouth)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Hall, Lieut-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Manville, Edward

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'I,W.D'by)

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Sandon, Lord

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Harrison, F. C.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Singleton, J. E.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Stanley, Lord

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Stewart, Gersham (Wirral)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S J. G.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  O'Neill, t. Hon. Hugh

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mosslay)

  Paget, T. G.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Parker. Owen (Kettering)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hume, G. H.

  Perring, William George

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Peto, Basil E.

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Warrington)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Privett F. J.

  Wells, S. R.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Raine, W.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel-George

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

  Winterton, Earl

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wise, Frederick

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Wood. Maj. Sir S. Hill (High Peak)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Lordun, John William

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

  Lougher, L.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Original Question put, and agreed to.

  It being after Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put severally the Questions, "That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the several Classes of the Civil Services Estimates and of the other outstanding Votes, including Supplementary Estimates, and the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army, Air
  594
  and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1923–24.

  CLASS I.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £3,587,660, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services

  595
  included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  Royal Palaces

  64,965

  2.

  Osborne

  10,925

  3.

  Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

  122,600

  4.

  Houses of Parliament Buildings

  54,875

  5.

  Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

  49,450

  6.

  Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

  189,550

  7

  Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

  168,050

  9.

  Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain

  385,575

  10.

  Public Buildings, Great Britain

  1,281,100

  £

  10A.

  House Building

  5

  10B.

  Housing Schemes

  ,23,650

  10c.

  Memorials

  11,340

  10D.

  Mall Approach Improvement

  500

  11.

  Surveys of Great Britain

  97,110

  12.

  Peterhead Harbour

  17,000

  13.

  Rates on Government Property

  1,003,785

  14.

  Works and Buildings in Ireland

  107,180

  £3,587,660"

  Question put,
  The Committe divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 198.

  Division No. 311.]

  AYES.

  [10.10 p.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

  Gould, James C.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Apsley, Lord

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Astor, Viscountess

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'1,W.D'by)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Banks, Mitchell

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cope, Major William

  Harrison, F. C.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Becker, Harry

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C H. (Devizes)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Berry, Sir George

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Halley, Sir Ernest

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Maryiebone)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Ellis, R. G.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Britain, Sir Harry

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Erskine, Bolst, Captain C.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hume, G. H.

  Bruford, R.

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. t. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Bruton, Sir James

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Hurd, Percy A

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Button, H. S.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Furness, G. J.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Cassels, J. D.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Kinjoch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Garland, C. S.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Perring, William George

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-In-Furness)

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Lorden, John William

  Pielou, D. P.

  Stanley, Lord

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Lougher, L.

  Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Privett, F. J.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Lumley, L. R.

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Rains, W.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Rawlinnon, Rt. Hon. John Frodk. Peel

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Makings, Brigadier-General E.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Manville, Edward

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Waring, Major Walter

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford. Hereford)

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major(Islgtn,W)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)

  Wells, S. R.

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Monition)

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Winterton, Earl

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Wise, Frederick

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J.(Westminster)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Sandon, Lord

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Paget, T. G.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Singleton, J. E.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Skelton, A. N.

  Penny, Frederick George

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Duncan, C.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hilisbre')

  Dunnico, H.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Ede, James Chuter

  Hayday, Arthur

  Attlee, C. R.

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Hammered, E. G.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Edmonds, G.

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Barnes, A.

  Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Batey, Joseph

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Herriotts, J.

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Hill, A.

  Bonwick, A.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Hinds, John

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Briant, Frank

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Broad, F. A.

  Falconer, J.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

  Bromfield, William

  Foot, Isaac

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Brotherton, J.

  Gardiner, James

  Irving, Dan

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Buckle, J.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Burgess, S.

  Gosling, Harry

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Cape, Thomas

  Greenall, T.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Grenfeil, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Charieton, H. C.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Groves, T.

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Clynes, t. Hon. John R.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartiepools)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Collision, Levi

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Kirkwood, D.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Lanubury, George

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Lawson, John James

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Leach, W.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Hancock, John George

  Lee, F.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hardie, George D.

  Linfield, F. C.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Harney, E. A.

  Lowth, T.

  598

  599

  Lunn, William

  Price, E. G.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-)e-Spring)

  Tout, W. J.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Ritson, J.

  Treveiyan, C. P.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Turner, Ben

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Walihead, Richard C.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  March, S.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Warne, G. H.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Saklatvala, S.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Webb, Sidney

  Middleton, G.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Millar, J. D.

  Sexton, James

  Weir, L. M.

  Morel, E. D.

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Westwood, J.

  Morris, Harold

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Whiteley, W.

  Muir, John W.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Murnin, H.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Smillie, Robert

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterciliffe)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Snell, Harry

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Oliver, George Harold

  Snowden, Philip

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Paling, W.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Wright, W.

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Parttinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Sullivan, J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Philipps, Vivian

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Potts, John S.

  CLASS 11.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £5,122,370,be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924,for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  House of Lords Offices

  28,970

  2.

  House of Commons

  210,783

  3.

  Treasury and Subordinate Departments

  204,952

  5.

  Foreign Office

  113,707

  8.

  Privy Council Office

  6,877

  10.

  Department of Overseas Trade

  199,960

  11.

  Mercantile Marine Services

  203,552

  12.

  Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

  5

  13.

  Mines Department of the Board of Trade

  102,727

  14.

  Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries

  1,064,451

  15.

  Forestry Commission

  63,000

  16.

  Ministry of Transport

  63,355

  17.

  Charity Commission

  28,666

  18.

  Government Chemist

  32,405

  19.

  Civil Service Commission

  45,521

  20.

  Exchequer and Audit Department

  98,100

  21.

  Friendly Societies Registry

  29,445

  £

  22.

  Government Actuary

  22,746

  23.

  Board of Control, England

  254,396

  24.

  The Mint

  550,000

  25.

  National Debt Office

  12,035

  26.

  Public Record Office

  25,001

  27.

  Public Works Loan Corn-mission

  5

  28.

  Registrar-General's Office, England

  67,385

  29.

  State Management Districts

  90

  30.

  Stationery and Printing

  944,592

  31.

  Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues

  20,075

  32.

  Office of Works and Public Buildings

  374,580

  33.

  Secret Service

  120,000

  Scotland.

  34.

  Secretary for Scotland's Office

  116,821

  37.

  General Board of Control

  29,274

  38.

  Registrar-General's Office

  13,179

  Ireland.

  39.

  Irish Department, etc.

  40,945

  40.

  Northern Ireland Services

  32,042

  41.

  Privy Seal Office

  4,025

  £5,122,370"

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 201.

  Division No. 312.]

  AYES.

  [10.20 p.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Astor, Viscountess

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Becker, Harry

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bellairs, Commander Cariyon W.

  Apsley, Lord

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Archer-Shoe, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Banks, Mitchell

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Barlow, t. Hon. Sir Montague

  Berry, Sir George

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Garland, C. S.

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Birchan, Major J. Dearman

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Murchison, C. K.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Gould, James C.

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Grenfeil, Edward C. (City of London)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Newtown, Sir Percy Wilson

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'peel,W.D'by)

  Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

  Bruford, R.

  Halstead, Major D.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Paget, T. G.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Harrison, F. C.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Pennefather, De Fonbianque

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Penny, Frederick George

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Perring, William George

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Peto, Basil E

  Button, H. S.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Phillips, Mabel

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Pieiou, D. P.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Cassels, J. D.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asshoton

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  price, E. G.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Maryiebone)

  Privett, F. J.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Cecil, t. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Rapine, W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Chapman, Sir S

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk Peel

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Houfton, John Playwright

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Remer, J. R.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hume, G. H.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Cockerili, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Cope, Major William

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major(isigtn, W)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sandon, Lord

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Ednam, Viscount

  Lordon, John William

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Lougher, L.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Singleton, J. E.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Eyres-M resell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steels-

  Stanley, Lord

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Manville, Edward

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Frece, Sir Waiter de

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Furness, G. J.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Ganzoni, Sir John.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Gardiner, James

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  602

  603

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Wallace, Captain E.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Winterton, Earl

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wise, Frederick

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Wells, S. R.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Hancock, John George

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Hardie, George D.

  Philiipps, Vivian

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Harney, E. A.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Ammon, Charles George

  Harris, Percy A.

  Potts, John S.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hastings, Patrick

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Barnes, A.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Ritson, J.

  Batey, Joseph

  Hemmerde, E. G.

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major(isigtn, W)

  Bonwick, A.

  Herriotts, J.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hill, A.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Briant, Frank

  Hinds, John

  Saklatvala, S.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Bromfield, William

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Brotherton, J.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Sexton, James

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Buckle, J.

  Irving, Dan

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Burgess, S.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Chapple, W. A.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)

  Smillie, Robert

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Snell, Harry

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Snowden, Philip

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Collison, Levi

  Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Sullivan, J.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lansbury, George

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Lawson, John James

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Leach, W.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lee, F.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Linfield, F. C.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Duncan, C.

  Lowth, T.

  Tout, W. J.

  Dunnico, H.

  Lunn, William

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Ede, James Chuter

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Turner, Ben

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Wailhead, Richard C.

  Edmonds, G.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Warne, G. H.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  March, S.

  Webb, Sidney

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Weir, L. M.

  Falconer, J.

  Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'd'ne, E.)

  Westwood, J.

  Foot, Isaac

  Middleton, G.

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Millar, J. D.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Whiteley, W.

  Gosling, Harry

  Morel, E. D.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Morris, Harold

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Greenall, T.

  Muir, John W.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Murnin, H.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Wright, W.

  Groves, T.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Grundy, T. W.

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Paling, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Class III
  "That a sum, not exceeding £3,089,665,be ranted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will comp in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  Law Charges

  140,798

  2.

  Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

  30,098

  3.

  Supreme Court of Judicature etc.

  337,534

  4.

  Land Registry

  61,674

  5.

  Public Trustee

  5

  6.

  County Courts

  56,442

  8.

  Prisons, England and Wales

  642,935

  9.

  Reformatory and Industrial Schools, England and Wales

  197,687

  10.

  Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  51,108

  Scotland.

  £

  11.

  Law Charges and Courts of Law

  80,522

  12.

  Scottish Land Court

  6,599

  13.

  Register House, Edinburgh

  50,745

  14.

  Police

  400,200

  15.

  Prisons

  107,173

  16.

  Reformatory and Industrial Schools

  61,766

  Ireland.

  17.

  Supreme Court of Judicature Northern Ireland

  32,864

  18.

  Irish Land Commission

  831,515

  £3,089,665"

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes 326; Noes, 178.

  Division No. 313.]

  AYES.

  [10.35 p.m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Frece, Sir Waiter de

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Furness, G. J.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Apsley, Lord

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Gardiner, James

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Garland, C. S.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Clayton, G. C.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Banks, Mitchell

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cope, Major William

  Guest, Hon C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwali Mitchell

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Becker, Harry

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Bell, Lieut. Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liveep'I,W.D'by)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Halstead, Major D.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Berry, Sir George

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Blundell, F. N.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Ednam, Viscount

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Brown, Major D. C (Hexham)

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Bruford, R.

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Bruton, Sir James

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Hinds, John

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. t. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Folle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Button, H. S.

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Hume, G. H.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Singleton, J. E.

  Hutchison. Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Paget, T. G.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Pease, William Edwin

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Stanley, Lord

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Perring, William George

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Phillipson, Mabel

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Plelou, D. P.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Price, E. G.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Privett, F. J.

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Lorden, John William

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Lougher, L.

  Raine, W.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Lumley, L. R.

  Rawson, Lieut.-Commander A. C.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Remer, J. R.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Manville, Edward

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Wells, S. R.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isigtn, W)

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Mitcheil, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Roundel‡, Colone) R. F.

  Winterton, Earl

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Wise, Frederick

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Morris, Harold

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Sandon, Lord

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Greenall, T.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Collison, Levl

  Groves, T.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Barnes, A.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Batey, Joseph

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hancock, John George

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Bonwick, A.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hardie, George D.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Duncan, C.

  Harney, E. A.

  Briant, Frank

  Dunnico, H.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Broad, F. A.

  Ede, James Chuter

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Bromfieid, William

  Edmonds, G.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Brotherton, J.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Buckle, J.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Hemmerde, E. G.

  Burgess, S.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Falconer, J.

  Herriotts, J.

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Foot, Isaac

  Hill, A.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Gosling, Harry

  Hirst, G. H.

  Cape, Thomas

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Chapple, W. A.

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

  Irving, Dan

  Murnin, H.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Sullivan, J.

  John, William (Rhondda West)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Slivertown)

  Paling, W.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Tillett, Benjamin

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)

  Tout, W. J.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Pattinson, R (Grantham)

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Pattinson, S. (Horneastle)

  Turner, Ber

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Potts, John S.

  Warne, G. H.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Lansbury, George

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Lawson, John James

  Ritson, J.

  Webb, Sidney

  Leach, W.

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Lee, F.

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Weir, L. M.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Westwood J.

  Linfield, F. C.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Lowth, T.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Lunn, William

  Saklatvala, S.

  Whiteley, W.

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Sexton, James

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  March, S.

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Wright, W.

  Middleton, G.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Millar, J. D.

  Smillie, Robert

  Morel, E. D.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Snell, Harry

  Mosley, Oswald

  Snowden, Philip

  Muir, John W.

  Calss IV.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £27,100,140. be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  Board of Education

  25,934,047

  2.

  British Museum

  171,816

  3.

  National Gallery

  16,027

  4.

  National Portrait Gallery

  5,149

  5.

  Wallace Collection

  7,812

  6.

  London Museum

  3,156

  7.

  Imperial War Museum

  10,250

  £

  8.

  Scientific Investigation, etc.

  119,971

  9.

  Scientific and Industrial Research

  176,863

  10.

  Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

  649,200

  Scotland.

  12.

  National Galleries

  5,849

  £27,100,140"

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 330; Noes, 180.

  Divison No.314.]

  AYES

  [10.45p.m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Berry, Sir George

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopoid C. M. S.

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Button, H. S.

  Apsley, Lord

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Archer-Shee,Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Blundell, F. N.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Astor, Viscountess

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Banks, Mitchell

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Bruford, R.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Becker, Harry

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Clayton, G. C.

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Burn, Colone) Sir Charles Rosdew

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Price, E. G.

  Collie, Sir John

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Privett, F. J.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Houston, John Plowright

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Cope, Major William

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Raine, W.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Hume, G. H.

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Remer, J. R.

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Instep, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Robertson- Despencer, Major(Isigtn, W)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Ednam, Viscount

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynernouth)

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Locker-Lampson, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

  Lorden, John William

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Lougher, L.

  Sandon, Lord

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.M.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Shepperson E. W.

  Faekes Major F. H

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Fermor- Hesketh Major T.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Flangan, W. H

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Foreman Sir Henry

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I

  Singleton, J. E.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Skelton, A. N.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Fraser, Major Sir Kelth

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Frece Sir Walter de

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Fremantle Lieut-Colonel Francis E.

  Manville, Edward

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Furness, G. J.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Galbraith, J. F. W

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Gardiner, James

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Stanley, Lord

  Garland, C. S.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Georg Major G. L.(Pembroke)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Morris, Harold

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C.(Honiton)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Titchfieid, Marquess of

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liveep'I,W.D'by)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Halstead, Major D.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Waring, Major Walter

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Paget, T. G.

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Hennessy, Major J R. G.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Wells, S. R.

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Wheeler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Hewett, Sir J. P.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Perring, William George

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Peto, Basil E.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Phillpson, Mabel

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Winterton, Earl

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Wise, Frederick

  612

  613

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Barnston and Captain Douglas King.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, west)

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  NOES

  Adams, D

  Hardie, George D.

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Harney, E. A.

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Potts, John S.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hastings, Patrick

  Price, E. G.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Ritson, J.

  Barn A.

  Hemmerde, E. G.

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Herriotts, J.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Hill, A.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Eliand)

  Bonwick, A.

  Hinds, John

  Rose, Frank H.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Briant, Frank

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Saklatvala, S.

  Broad, F. A.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

  Saiter, Dr. A.

  Bromfield, William

  Irving, Dan

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Brotherton, J.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sexton, James

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Buckle, J.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Burgess, S.

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Smillie, Robert

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Snell, Harry

  Charleton, H. C

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Snowden, Philip

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepoots)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sullivan, J.

  Collison, Levl

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Lawson, John James

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Leach, W.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Lee, F.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Tillett, Benjamin

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Linfield, F. C.

  Tout, W. J.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lowth, T.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Lunn, William

  Turner, Ben

  Duncan, C.

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Dunnico, H.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Ede, James Chuter

  McLaren, Andrew

  Warne, G. H.

  Edmonds, G.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  March, S.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Webb, Sidney

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Middleton, G.

  Weir, L. M.

  Falconer, J.

  Millar, J. D.

  Westwood, J.

  Foot, Isaac

  Morel, E. D.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Gosling, Harry

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottennam, N.)

  Whiteley, W.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Muir, John W.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Murnin, H.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Greenall, T.

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Groves, T.

  C'Grady, Captain James

  Wright, W.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Paling, W.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan)

  Hancock, John George

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Harbord, Arthur

  CLASS V.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,121,528,be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  Diplomatic and Consular Services

  631,965

  2.

  Colonial Services

  943,223

  614

  £

  2.

  Colonial Services (Supplementary sum)

  3,750,000

  3.

  Overseas Settlement

  776,650

  4.

  Middle Eastern Services

  3,968,500

  4.

  Middle Eastern Services (Supplementary sum)

  5,000

  5.

  Telegraph Subsidies

  4,000

  6.

  League of Nations

  42,190

  £10,121,528

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 290; Noes, 202.

  Divison

  Ayes

  [10.55p.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Lorden, John William

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Lougher, L.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Apsley, Lord

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Ellis, R. G.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Astor, Viscountess

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Manville, Edward

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Becker, Harry

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Bellairs, Commander Carryon W.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Mordent, Col. W. Grant

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Morelng, Captain Algernon H.

  Berry, Sir George

  Furness, G. J.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honition)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Murchison, C. K.

  Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

  Garland, C. S.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Blundell, F. N.

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Paget, T. G.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Bruford, R.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Pennetather, De Fonblanque

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Buckley, Lieut..Colonel A.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Perring, William George

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Harrison, F. C.

  Peto, Basil E.

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Pielou, D. P.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A (Yeovil)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asaheton

  Button, H. S.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Raine, W.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Remer, J. R.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hume, G. H.

  Robertson-Despencer,Major (Isigtn,W)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Calfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Cope, Major William

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Sandon, Lord

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Daiziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Davison,Sir W. H.(Kensington, S.)

  Locker-Lampson, G.(Wood Green)

  Singleton, J.E.

  Dawson,Sir Phillip

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)

  Skelton, A. N.

  616

  617

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Winterton, Earl

  Stanley, Lord

  Tutton, Edmund Russborough

  Wise, Frederick

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Yale, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Wells, S. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  NOES

  Adams, D.

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Oliver, George Harold

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Paling, W.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hilisbro')

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hancock, John George

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hardie, George D.

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Barnes, A.

  Harney, E. A.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Batey, Joseph

  Harris, Percy A.

  Potts, John S.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Preston, Sir W. R.

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Hastings, Patrick

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Bonwick, A.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Briant, Frank

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Ritson, J.

  Broad, F. A.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Bromfield, William

  Herriotts, J.

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Brotherton, J.

  Hill, A.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hinds, John

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Buckle, J.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Burgess, S.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Irving, Dan

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Cape, Thomas

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sexton, James

  Chapple, W. A.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Short, Alfred (Wedneebury)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Collie, Sir John

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Collison, Levi

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Smillie, Robert

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Snell, Harry

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Jowett, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Snowden, Philip

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lansbury, George

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lawson, John James

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Leach, W.

  Sullivan, J.

  Duncan, C.

  Lee, F.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Donnico, H.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Ede, James Chuter

  Linfield, F. C.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Lowth, T.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Edmonds, G.

  Lunn, William

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Tillett, Benjamin

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Tout, W. J.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Turner, Ben

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Falconer, J.

  March, S.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Foot, Isaac

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Warne, G. H.

  Gardiner, James

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Middleton, G.

  Webb, Sidney

  Gosling, Harry

  Millar, J. D.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Weir, L. M.

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Morris, Harold

  Westwood, J.

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Greenall, T.

  Muir, John W.

  White, H. G (Birkenhead, E.)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Murnin, H.

  Whiteley, W.

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Groves, T.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  618

  619

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Wright, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwhich)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  CLASS VI.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £16,664,640,he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  1.

  Superannuation and Retired Allowances

  802,297

  2.

  Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc.

  172,424

  3.

  Old Age Pensions

  13,200,000

  5.

  Merchant Seamen's War Pensions

  302,819

  6.

  Miscellaneous Expenses

  2,178

  7.

  Royal Commissions, etc.

  65,000

  8.

  National Savings Committee

  55,550

  9.

  Imperial War Graves Commission

  719,000

  10.

  Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

  100,200

  11.

  Expenses under the Representation of the People Act

  215,000

  12.

  Government Hospitality fund

  10,000

  13.

  Development Fund

  175,000

  14.

  Ex-Service Men (Ireland) Grant

  703,772

  15.

  Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund

  141,400

  £16,664,640"

  Question put
  MR. PRANGLE(seated and covered): What is the class of this vote,and what is the sum asked for?
  HON.MEMBER: Class VI, £16,000,000.
  Mr. PRINGLE: The decrease from last year was £16,000,000. I presume that is not what is being asked for?
  THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry the hon. Member was not here when the Qestion was put the first time. I shall repeat the Question at the usual time.

  Class VII.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,343,849, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:

  £

  3.

  Ministry of Labour

  10,187,005

  4.

  National Insurance, Audit Department

  116,590

  5.

  Friendly Societies' Deficiency

  6,254

  6.

  Grants to Voluntary Hospitals

  34,000

  £10,343,849"

  Question put.
  The Committe divided: Ayes, 326; Noes, 177.

  Division No. 316.]

  AYES.

  [11.8p.m

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cassels, J. D.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Apsley, Lord

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Brassey, Sir Leonard

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Astor, Viscountess

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bruford, R.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Clayton, G. C.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Burney, Corn. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Collie, Sir John

  Becker, Harry

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Cope, Major William

  Bellairs, Commander Carryon W.

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Berry, Sir George

  Button, H. S.

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Remer, J. R.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jackson. Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn,W)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Ruggies-Brise, Major E.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Ednam, Viscount

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Locker-Lampoon, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Lorden, John William

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Loimer, H. D.

  Sandon, Lord

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lougher, L.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Evans, Capt H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon.Sir B. M.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Simpson-Hinchiiffe, W. A.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Singleton, J. E.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Maddocks, Sir Henry

  Skelton, A. N.

  Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Manville, Edward

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Frece, Sir Walter de

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Stanley, Lord

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Steel, Major. S. Strang

  Furness, G. J.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Gardiner, James

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Garland, C. S.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Gaunt. Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Morris, Harold

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Morrison-Bell,Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Murchison, C. K.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'1,W.D'by)

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Halstead, Major D.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Waring, Major Walter

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Paget, T. G.

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Wells, S. R.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Penny, Frederick George

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Perring, William George

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Winterton, Earl

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Wise, Frederick

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Price, E. G.

  Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Privett, F. J.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Raine, W.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.

  Hume, G. H.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Reid, D. D. (County Down)

  622

  623

  NOES.

  Adams, D

  Harney, E. A.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Potts, John S.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hastings, Patrick

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Ritson, J.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Barnes, A.

  Herriotts, J.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Batey, Joseph

  Hill, A.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Hinds, John

  Rose, Frank H.

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Hirst, G. H.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Bonwick, A.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Saklatvala, S.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Briant, Frank

  Irving, Dan

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Broad, F. A.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sexton, James

  Bromfield, William

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Brotherton, J.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Buckle, J.

  Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Burgess, S.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Smillie, Robert

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Snell, Harry

  Cape, Thomas

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Snowden, Philip

  Chapple, W. A.

  Jowitt W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Sullivan, J.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lansbury, George

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Collison, Levi

  Lawson, John James

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Leach, W.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Lee, F.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Kelghley)

  Tillett, Benjamin

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Linfield, F. C.

  Tout, W. J.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lowth, T.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lunn, William

  Turner, Ben

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Wallhead, Richard C.

  Duncan, C.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Dunnico, H.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Warne, G. H.

  Ede, James Chuter

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Edmonds, G.

  March, S.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Webb, Sidney

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kincard'ne, E.)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Middleton, G.

  Weir, L. M.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Millar, J. D.

  Westwood, J.

  Falconer, J.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Foot, Isaac

  Mosley, Oswald

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Gosling, Harry

  Muir, John W.

  Whiteley, W.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Murnin, H.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Greenall, T.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Williams, T.,(York, Don Valley)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Groves, T.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Paling, W.

  Wright, W.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Arthur Henderson and Mr. Spoor.

  Hancock, John George

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Hardie, George D.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  UNEMPLOYMENT GRANTS.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £100,000,be granted to His be Majest to, complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924,or Relief arising out of Unemployment,

  RELIEF OF UNEMPLOYMENT
  "That a sum, not exceeding £750,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the
  624
  sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for Relief arising out of Unemployment,including a Grant in-Aid."

  EXPORT CREDITS.
  "That a sum not exceeding £150,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, to provide for Advances in respect of Exports of goods wholly or partly produced

  625
  or manufactured in the United Kingdom or guarantees in connection therewith."
  Question put.
  The Committee proceeded to a Division—
  The CHAIRMAN stated that he thought the Ayes had it: and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed. Accordingly he called upon the Members who supported, and who challenged his decision, successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.

  CRIMINAL INJURIES (IRELAND) COMPENSATION.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,445,010, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which
  will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Compensation for Criminal Injuries, including Advances on account of prospective awards, and Medical and Nursing Expenses of Crown Employees who have been maliciously injured, also for the payment of Grants to refugees from Ireland for the Relief of Distress."

  NORTHERN IRELAND GRANTS IN AID.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,430,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Grants in Aid of the Revenues of the Government of Northern Ireland, including Compensation for Damage arising out of the disturbed condition of Ireland."
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 197.

  Division No. 317.]

  AYES.

  [11.28 p.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Furness, G. J.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Garland, C. S.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Apsley, Lord

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Astor, Viscountess

  Clayton, G. C.

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cohen, Major J. Brunel

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Halstead, Major D.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cope, Major William

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Becker, Harry

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Berry, Sir George

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Ednam, Viscount

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Bruford, R.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Bruton, Sir James

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Erskine-Bol0st, Captain C.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hume, G. H

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. t. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Horst, Gerald B.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Button, H. S.

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Cassels, J. D.

  Frece, Sir Waiter de

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Skelton, A. N.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Penny, Frederick George

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Perring, William George

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Stanley, Lord

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Pielou, D. P.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw,th)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Lorden, John William

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Lougher, L.

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Price, E. G.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Privett, F. J.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Raine, W.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Remer, J. R.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Manville, Edward

  Remnant, Sir James

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Waring, Major Walter

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Wells, S. R.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.).

  Murchison, C. K.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Winterton, Earl

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wise, Frederick

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Sandon, Lord

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Llverp'l, Exchange)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Paget, T. G.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Hacking.

  Parker. Owen (Kettering)

  Singleton, J. E.

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Collie, Sir John

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Collison, Levi

  Greenall, T.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Groves, T.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Barnes, A.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Batey, Joseph

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Duncan, C.

  Hancock, John George

  Bonwick, A.

  Dunnico, H.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Ede, James Chuter

  Hardie, George D.

  Briant, Frank

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Harney, E. A.

  Broad, F. A.

  Edmonds, G.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Bromfield, William

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Brotherton, J.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Hastings, Patrick

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Buckle, J.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Burgess, S.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Falconer, J.

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Foot, Isaac

  Herrlotts, J.

  Cape, Thomas

  Gardiner, James

  Hill, A.

  Chapple, W. A.

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Hinds, John

  Charleton, H. C.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Hirst, G. H.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Gosling, Harry

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  628

  629

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Paling, W.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Sullivan, J.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Jewett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Ponsonhy, Arthur

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Potts, John S.

  Tout, W. J.

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Turner, Ben

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Lansbury, George

  Ritson, J.

  Warne, G. H.

  Lawson, John James

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Leach, W.

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Lee, F.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Webb, Sidney

  Linfield, F. C.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Lowth, T.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Weir, L. M.

  Lunn, William

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Westwood, J.

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Saklatvala, S.

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Whiteley, W.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Sexton, James

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  March, S.

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kine'dine, E.)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Middleton, G.

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Wright, W.

  Millar, J. D.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Morris, Harold

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Snell, Harry

  Mosley, Oswald

  Snowden, Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Murnin, H.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Spoor, B. G.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  DISPOSAL AND LIQUIDIATION COMMISSION
  "That a sum not exceeding 40,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sun necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of 1924.
  for the Salaries and Expenses of the Disposal and Liquidation Commission."
  The Committee divided: Ayes,313; Noes,173.

  Division No. 318.]

  AYES.

  [11.40 p.m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Bruton, Sir James

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Daiziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Davidson,J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Apsley, Lord

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Astor, Viscountess

  Button, H. S.

  Dixon, Capt H. (Belfast, E.)

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrencs

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Banks, Mitchell

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Ednam, Viscount

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Barrie, Sir Charles Cougar (Banff)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Becker, Harry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm.,w.)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H (Devizes)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Erskine-Boist, Captain C.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Berry, Sir George

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Boyd Carpenter, Major A.

  Collie, Sir John

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Cope, Major William

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Fremantle, Lieut.Colonel Francis E.

  Bruford, R.

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Furness, G. J.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Lumley, L.R.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Roundell, Colonel R.F.

  Gardiner, James

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Garland, C. S.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  George, Major G.L. (Pembroke)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Manville, Edward

  Sandon, Lord

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'1, W. D'by)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Singleton, J. E.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Morris, Harold

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Stanley, Lord

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovll)

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Nicholson, Brig: Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hogg, t. H on. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Perring, William George

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Peto, Basil E.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hume, G. H.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Pielou, D. P.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Waring, Major Waiter

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Price, E. G.

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Privett, F. J.

  Wells, S. R.

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Raise, W.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Winterton, Earl

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Wise, Frederick

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rower, J. R.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Wood, Mal. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Lorden, John William

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.

  Lougher, L.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major(Isigtn,W)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Bonwick, A.

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Briant, Frank

  Cape, Thomas

  Attlee, C. R.

  Broad, F. A.

  Chapple, W. A.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Bromfield, William

  Charleton, H. C.

  Barnes, A.

  Brotherton, J.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Batey, Joseph

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Buckle, J.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfieid)

  Burgess, S.

  Collison, Levi

  632

  633

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Saiter, Dr. A.

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Jones, T. 1. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Sexton, James

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Duncan, C.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Dunnico, H.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Ede, James Chuter

  Lansbury, George

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Edmonds, G.

  Lawson, John James

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)

  Leach, W.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Lee, F.

  Snell, Harry

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Linfield, F C.

  Snowden, Philip

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Lowth, T.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Falconer, J.

  Lunn, William

  Spoor, B. G.

  Foot, Isaac

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Gosling, Harry

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Sullivan, J.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  March, S.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Greenall, T.

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Middleton, G.

  Tout, W.J.

  Groves, T.

  Millar, J. D.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Turner, Ben

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Murnin, H.

  Warne, G. H.

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Hancock, John George

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Webb, Sidney

  Hardie, George D.

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Weir, L. M.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Paling, W.

  Westwood, J.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Whiteley, W.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Herriotts, J.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Hill, A.

  Potts, John S.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Hinds, John

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Hirst, G. H.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Ritson, J.

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Roberts, Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  SHIPPING LIQUIDATION
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,500,000, be granted to his majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of march 1924,
  for the salaries and Expenses in connection with shipping liquidation."
  Question Put.
  The committee divided: Ayes, 295; Noes, 190.

  Division No. 319.]

  AYES.

  [11.50 p.m

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Berry, Sir George

  Button, H. S

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Apsley, Lord

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Bridgeman, t. Hon. William Clive

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Astor, Viscountess

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Baird, t. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Bruford, R.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Banks, Mitchell

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Becker, Harry

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Remer, J. R.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Roberts, t. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Kennedy, Captain M. S.

  Nigel Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford)

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Ellis, R. G.

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. 0. (Handsw,th)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Lorden, John William

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Lougher, L.

  Sandon, Lord

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Eyres-Monsell I, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Lumley, L. R.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Singleton, J. E.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Manville, Edward

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.

  Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Furness, G. J.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Garland, C. S.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Stanley, Lord

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Gould, James C.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Buster, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L.(Exeter)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Halstead, Major D.

  Nicholson, William G.(Petersfieid)

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Nield, Sir Herbert

  Tryon, t. Hon. George Clement

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Harrison, F. C.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Paget, T. G.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Pease, William Edwin

  Waring, Major Walter

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Wells, S. R.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Purring, William George

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Peto, Basil E.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Philipson, Mabel

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie 0. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Winterton, Earl

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Pretyman, t. Hon. Ernest G.

  Wise, Frederick

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Privett, F. J.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Raine, W.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Hume, G. H.

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Hunter-Weston. Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Cope and Colonel Roundell.

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Attiee, C. R.

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Berkeley. Captain Reginald

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Barnes, A.

  Bonwick, A.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Batey, Joseph

  Briant, Frank

  636

  637

  Broad, F. A.

  Henderson, t. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Bromfield, William

  Henderson, Sir T.(Roxburgh)

  Ritson,J.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Buckle, J.

  Herrlotts, J.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Burgess, S.

  Hill, A.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Hinds, John

  Rose, Frank H.

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Sakiatvala, S.

  Cape, Thomas

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Sexton, James

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Collie, Sir John

  Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Collison, Levi

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Snell, Harry

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Snowden, Philip

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Lansbury, George

  Spoor, B. G.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Lawson, John James

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Duncan, C.

  Leach, W.

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Dunnico, H.

  Lee, F.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Ede, James Chuter

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Linfield, F. C.

  Sullivan, J.

  Edmonds, G.

  Lowth, T.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Lunn, William

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Tout, W. J.

  Falconer, J.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Foot, Isaac

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Turner, Ben

  Gardiner, James

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  March, S.

  Warne, G. H.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Gosling, Harry

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Webb, Sidney

  Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Middleton, G.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Millar, J. D.

  Weir, L. M.

  Greenall, T.

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Westwood, J.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Morris, Harold

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Groves, T.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Mosley, Oswald

  Whiteley, W.

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Murnin, H.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Hancock, John George

  Paling, W.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Wright, W.

  Hardie, George D.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

  Harney, E. A.

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Phillipps, Vivian

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. T. Griffiths.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Potts, John S.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  RAILWAY AND CANAL (WAR) AGREEMENTS LIQUIDATION
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,315,220, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March 1924, to meet Expenditure arising from Government control of Railways and
  Canals in great Britain and Ireland under The Regulation of the Forces act, 1871, section 16, and Defence of the Realm (con-solidation) Regulations, 9 H."
  Question Put
  The committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 168.

  COAL MINES DEFICIENCY.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge with will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March 1924. to provide for the deficiency arising under the coal Mines Control Agreement (Con
  642
  firmation) Act, 1918, and for Payments to the Coal Mines (Emergency) Act Account under the coal mines (emergency)Act account under the coal mines emergency act 1920. and the coal mines (Decontrol)Act, 1921."
  Question put
  The committee divided: Ayes 295,Noes, 166.

  Division No. 320.]

  AYES.

  [12 m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Becker, Harry

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Banks, Mitchell

  Berry, Sir George

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Apsley, Lord

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Gould, James C.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Nicholson, Brig, -Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E

  Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Paget, T. G.

  Bruford, R.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Llv'p'1, W. D'by)

  Pease, William Edwin

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Bull. Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Harrison, F. C.

  perring, William George

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Peto, Basil E.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Philipson, Mabel

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Pleiou, D. P.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Pliditch, Sir Philip

  Button, H. S.

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Price, E. G.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Privett, F. J.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Hogg, t. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Ralne, W.

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

  Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Chlicott, Sir Warden

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Remer, J. R.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Clayton, G. C.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hume, G. I

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Collie, Sir John

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hurst, Gerald B

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Cope, Major William

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian N.)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Rogerson, Capt J. E.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Ruggies-Brise, Major E.

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Sandon, Lord

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Lioyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Locker-Lampson, Conn. O. (Handsw'th)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Lorden, John William

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Lougher, L.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Singleton, J. E.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Skelton, A. N.

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Stanley, Lord

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Manville, Edward

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Sturrock, J. Lang

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Furness, G. J.

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Gariand, C. S.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Gibbs. Col. t. Hon. George Abraham

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  640

  641

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Wheler. Col. Granville C. H.

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Winterton, Earl

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Wise, Frederick

  Wells, S. R.

  Welmer, Viscount

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Hardie, George D.

  Potts, John S.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Harris, Percy A.

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hastings, Patrick

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Attlee. C. R.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Ritson. J.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Barnes, A.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Herriotts, J.

  Rose. Frank H.

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

  Hill, A.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Hinds, John

  Saklatvala, S.

  Bonwick, A.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Briant, Frank

  Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

  Sexton, James

  Broad, F. A.

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Bromfield, William

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Shinwell. Emanuel

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Buckle, J.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Burgess, S.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootie)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Snell, Harry

  Cape, Thomas

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Snowden, Philip

  Chapple, W. A.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Spoor, B. G.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Lambert Rt. Hon. George

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lansbury, George

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Collison, Levl

  Lawson, John James

  Sullivan, J.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Leach, W.

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Lee, F.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Linfieid, F. C.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lowth, T.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Lunn, William

  Tout, W. J.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Turner, Ben

  Duncan, C.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, lnce)

  Dunnico, H.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Warne, G. H.

  Ede, James Chuter

  March, S.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Edmonds, G.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Webb, Sidney

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Middleton, G.

  Westwood, J.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Millar, J. D.

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Falconer, J.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Foot, Isaac

  Mosley, Oswald

  Whiteley, W.

  Gosling, Harry

  Murnin, H.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Greenall, T.

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Oliver, George Harold.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Paling, W.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Groves, T.

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Wright, W.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Ammon.

  Hancock, John George

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Harbord, Arthur

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Division No. 321.]

  AYES.

  [12.12 a.m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Ellis, R. G.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Alexander, E E. (Leyton, East)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Alexander, Col. M.(Southwark)

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Makins, Brigadier-General E.

  Apsley, Lord

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Manville, Edward

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Eyres-M Onsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Baird, t. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Banks, Mitchell

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Morris, Harold

  Becker, Harry

  Furness, G. J.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honlton)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Murchison, C. K.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Garland, C. S

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Berry, Sir George

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Betterton, Henry B.

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Gibbs, Col. t. Hon. George Abraham

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Gould, James C.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfieid)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Brass, Captain W.

  Gretton, Colonel John

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Paget, T. G.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Bruford, R.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Bruton, Sir James

  Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Llv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Perring, William George

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Harrison, F. C.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Butcher. Sir John George

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Henn, Sir Sydney H.

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Button, H. S.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Price, E. G.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Privett, F. J.

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Cassels, J. D.

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Rains, W.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Hogg, t. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Eveiyn (Aston)

  Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Reamer, J. R.

  Chlicott, Sir Warden

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Hurd, Percy A.

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Collie, Sir John

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (IsIgtn,W)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Cope, Major William

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Kinioch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Sandon, Lord

  Dawson. Sir Philip

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Lloyd-Creams, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Locker-Lampoon, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Lorden, John William

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Simpson-Hinchilffe, W. A.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Lougher, L.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Singleton, J. E.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Skelton, A. N.

  644

  645

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Thorpe, Captain John Henry

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Titchfieid, Marquess of

  Winterton, Earl

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Wise, Frederick

  Stanley, Lord

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Waring, Major Walter

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Douglas King and Major Hennessy.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Wells, S. R.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefieid

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Hardle, George D.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Harney, E. A.

  Potts, John S.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Ritson, J.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Barnes, A.

  Hayday, Arthur

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Batey, Joseph

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

  Herriotts, J.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Berkeley, Captain Reginald

  Hill, A.

  Sakiatvala, S.

  Bonwick, A.

  Hinds, John

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Briant, Frank

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Sexton, James

  Broad, F. A.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

  Bromfield, William

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Buckle, J.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Simpson, J. Hope

  Burgess, S.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Snell, Harry

  Cape, Thomas

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Snowden, Philip

  Chapple, W. A.

  Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Spoor, B. G.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Collison, Levi

  Lansbury, George

  Sullivan, J.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Lawson, John James

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Leach, W.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Davies, J. C.(Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Linfield, F. C.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lunn, William

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Davison. J. E. (Smethwick)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Tout, W. J.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Turner, Ben

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  McLaren, Andrew

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Duncan, C.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Warne, G. H.

  Dunnico, H.

  March, S.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Ede, James Chuter

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Edmonds, G.

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Webb, Sidney

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kincardinee, E.)

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Middleton, G.

  Weir, L. M.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Millar, J. D.

  Westwood, J.

  Falconer, J.

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

  Foot, Isaac

  Mosley, Oswald

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Gosling, Harry

  Murnin, H.

  Whiteley, W.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Greenall, T.

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Groves, T.

  Paling, W.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Wright, W.

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvli)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Hancock, John George

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. Ammon.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Question put, and agreed to.

  PRIZE CLAIMS.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £33,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come of payments during the
  646
  year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Claims in respect of Ships or Cargoes condemned as Naval Prize or detained."

  COAL MINING INDUSTRY SUBVENTION.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, as a Subvention in Aid of Wages in the Coal Mining Industry."
  GRANTS FOR COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE BY ENEMY ACTION.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,600,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 3lst day of March 1924, for Grants in respect of Compensation for Suffering and Damage by Enemy Action."

  TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN, GRANT IN AID.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st
  day of March 1924, for a Grant in Aid of Trinity College, Dublin."

  AGRICULTURAL CREDITS.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for a Grant in Aid of Agricultural Credits."
  Question put.
  The Committee proceeded to a Division—
  Mr. PRINGLE(seated and covered): The last Question was distinctly challenged. It should have been put. You had no right to declare it carried without putting it. This was not done on an earlier Vote which was challenged by only one Member. Several Members challenged the last Vote.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 120.

  Division No. 322.]

  AYES.

  [12.22 a.m.

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Cassels, J. D.

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City)

  Forestler-Walker, L.

  Apsley, Lord

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Ashley, Lt.?Col. Wilfrid W.

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Furness, G. J.

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Clarke. Sir E. C.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Banks, Mitchell

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Garland, C. S.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Clayton, G. C.

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Gibbs. Col.Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Becker, Harry

  Collie, Sir John

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Cope, Major William

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Berry, Sir George

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Halstead, Major D.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Bonwick, A.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Brass, Captain W.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Britain, Sir Harry

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Broad, F. A.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hinds, John

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Bruford, R.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Bruton, Sir James

  Ednam, Viscount

  Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Horne, Sir R. S.(Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N)

  Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Stanley, Lord

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Steel, Major, S. Strang

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Purring, William George

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Peto, Basil E.

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Philipson, Mabel

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Pielou, D. P.

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Linfieid, F. C.

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Price, E. G.

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Privett, F. J.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Lorden, John William

  Raeburn, Sir William H.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Raine, W.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Lougher, L.

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Remer, J. R.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Waring, Major Waiter

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Manville, Edward

  Richardson, Lt-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Weir, L. M.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Wells, S. R.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Rogerson. Capt. J. E.

  Westwood, J.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie 0. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Winterton, Earl

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Wise, Frederick

  Murchison, C. K.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wood, Major Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Newton, Sir Percy Wilson

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Singleton, J. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Hennessy.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon Hugh

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Skelton, A. N.

  Paget, T. G.

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Gosling, Harry

  Jones, T. I. Hardy (Pontypridd)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Ammon, Charles George

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Greenall, T.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Groves, T.

  Lansbury, George

  Barnett, A.

  Grundy, T. W.

  Lawson, John James

  Batey, Joseph

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Leach, W.

  Briant, Frank

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Lee, F.

  Buckle, J.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Burgess, S.

  Hancock, John George

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Harbord, Arthur

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Cape, Thomas

  Hardie, George D.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Harney, E. A.

  March, S.

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Collison, Levi

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Middleton, G.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hastings, Patrick

  Morris, Harold

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Mosley, Oswald

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Murnin, H.

  Duffy, T. Govan

  Hill, A.

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Duncan. C.

  Hirst, G. H.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Dunnico, H.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Ede, James Chuter

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Paling, W.

  Edmonds, G.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  650

  651

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Snowden, Philip

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Potts, John S.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Webb, Sidney

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Spoor, B. G.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Ritson, J.

  Sullivan, J.

  Whiteley, W.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Sexton, James

  Tout, W. J.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Wright, W.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Turner, Ben

  Skelton, A. N.

  Warne, G. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Mr. SCRMGEOUR rose—[Interruption]. I want to protest—[Interuption]—
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Caption Fitzroy): The hon. Member must obey the Standing Order of the House

  REVENUE DEPARTEMENT ESTIMATE, 1923–24
  "That a sum not exceeding £6,681,211, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day March 1924,
  for Expenditure in respect of the Services include in the Estimate for Revenue Department, namely:

  £

  1.

  Custom and Excise

  2,759,000

  2.

  Inland Revenue

  3,922,211

  £6,681,211"

  Queatin put
  Mr PRINCIPLE: Does this include Post Office publicity?
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes,174.

  Division No. 323.]

  AYES.

  [12.40 a.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Apsley, Lord

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Cope, Major William

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Harrison, F. C.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Davidson, J. C C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Hay, M ajar T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Becker, Harry

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Berry, Sir George

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Blundell, F. N.

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

  Brass, Captain W.

  Ellis, R. G.

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Bruford, R.

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Foxcrott, Captain Charles Talbot

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Fremantle, Lieut. Colonel Francis E.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Furness, G. J.

  King, Captain Henry Douglas

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Cassels, J. D.

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Garland, C. S.

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Borton

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Gould, James C.

  Locker-Lampson, Corn. O. (Handsw'th)

  Lorden, John William

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Lougher, L.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Stanley, Lord

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Privett, F. J

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Raine, W.

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  McNeill Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Manville, Edward

  Reid, Capt. A S. C. (Warrington)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Remer, J. R.

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Millar, J. D.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wells, S. R.

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Roundel, Colonel R. F.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Russeil, William (Bolton)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Norman. Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Winterton, Earl

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Wise, Frederick

  Paget, T. G.

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Pease, William Edwin

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Simpson-Hinchilffe, W. A.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Singleton, J. E.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Colfox.

  Philipson, Mabel

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  NOES.

  Adams, D.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. Wiliiam

  Entwistle, Major C. F. Jones,

  R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Adkins, Sir William Ryland Dent

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Falconer, J.

  Kirkwood, D.

  Ammon, Charles George

  Foot, Isaac

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Attlee, C. R.

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Lansbury, George

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertiliery)

  Gosling, Harry

  Lawson, John James

  Barnes, A.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Leach, W.

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Batey, Joseph

  Greenall, T.

  Linfield, F. C.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Bonwick, A.

  Groves, T.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Briant, Frank

  Grundy, T. W.

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Broad, F. A.

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Bromfield, William

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Buckle, J.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  March, S.

  Burgess, S.

  Hancock, John George

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Cape, Thomas

  Hardie, George D.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Harney, E. A.

  Middleton, G.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Millar, J. D.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Morris, Harold

  Collie, Sir John

  Hastings, Patrick

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Collison, Levi

  Hayday, Arthur

  Murnin, H.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Henderson, t. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Herriotts J.

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Hill, A.

  Oliver, George Harold

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hinds, John

  Paling, W.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Hirst, G. H.

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Duncan, C.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Dunnico, H.

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Ede, James Chuter

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Edmonds, G.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Potts, John S.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth)

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  654

  655

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Snowden, Philip

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Spoor, B. G.

  Webb, Sidney

  Ritson, J.

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Weir, L. M.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Westwood, J.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Sullivan, J.

  Whiteley, W.

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Sexton, James

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Tout, W. J.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Wright, W.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Turner, Ben

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Warne, G. H.

  Mr. PRINGLE(seated and covered): May I call your attention to the fact that two hon. Members passed through the doors when the attendants were endeavouring to lock them?

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £30,933,150, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, namely:

  £

  2.

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  4,742,500

  3.

  Medical Establishments and Services

  516,000

  4.

  Civilians employed on Fleet Services

  194,900

  5.

  Educational Services

  353,000

  £

  6.

  Scientific Services

  435,800

  7.

  Royal Naval Reserves

  572,800

  8.

  Sec. 1. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Personnel

  6,694,000

  8.

  Sec. 2. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Matériel

  5,988,200

  8.

  Sec. 3. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c. Contract Work

  5,031,450

  9.

  Naval Armaments

  5,344,900

  11.

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  1,059,600

  £30,933,150"

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 145.

  Division No. 324.]

  AYES.

  [12.43 a.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Dudgeon, Major C. R

  Apsley, Lord

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Ednam, Viscount

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Cassels, J. D.

  Elliot, Capt, Walter E. (Lanark)

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Ellis, R. G.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Becker, Harry

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Berry, Sir George

  Clayton, G. C.

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Porestier-Walker, L.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Blundell, F. N.

  Collie, Sir John

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Cope, Major William

  Furness, G. J.

  Brass, Captain W.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon William Clive

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Garland, C. S.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Bruford, R.

  Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Bruton, Sir James

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Gould, James C.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Manville, Edward

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'1, Exchange)

  Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W. D'by)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Halstead, Major D.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Harbord, Arthur

  Morris, Harold

  Singleton, J. E.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Harrison, F. C.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Stanley, Lord

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Hinds, John

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Hogg, Rt. H on. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Paget, T. G.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Pease, William Edwin

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Penny, Frederick George

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Peto, Basil E.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Philipson, Mabel

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Pilditch, Sir Philip

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Pollock, t. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Price, E. G.

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Privett, F. J.

  Waring, Major Waiter

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Raine, W.

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Wells, S. R.

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

  Remer, J. R.

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Remnant, Sir James

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Winterton, Earl

  Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Wise, Frederick

  Lorden, John William

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Lougher, L.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Lumley, L. R.

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs and Captain Douglas King.

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Chapple, W. A.

  Falconer, J.

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Foot, Isaac

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

  Gosling, Harry

  Ammon, Charles George

  Collison, Levi

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Greenall, T.

  Barnes, A.

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Batey, Joseph

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhouqhton)

  Groves, T.

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Grundy, T. W.

  Bonwick, A.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Briant, Frank

  Duncan, C.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Broad, F. A.

  Dunnico, H.

  Hancock, John George

  Bromfield, William

  Ede, James Chuter

  Hardie, George D.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Edmonds, G.

  Harney, E. A.

  Buckle, J.

  Edwards. C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Harris, Percy A.

  Burgess, S.

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Hastings, Patrick

  Cape, Thomas

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  658

  659

  Hayday, Arthur

  Mosley, Oswald

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Murnin, H.

  Spoor, B. G.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Herriotts, J.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Hill, A.

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Sullivan, J.

  Hirst, G. H.

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Oliver, George Harold

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Paling, W.

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Tout, W. J.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Turner, Ben

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Warne, G. H.

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Potts, John S.

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Webb, Sidney

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Ritson, J.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Lansbury, George

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Weir, L. M.

  Lawson, John James

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Westwood, J.

  Leach, W.

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Whiteley, W.

  Linfield, F. C.

  Royce, William Stapleton.

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  McLaren, Andrew

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Sexton, James

  Wintringham, Margaret

  March, S.

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Wright, W.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Middleton, G.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Morgan Jones.

  Millar, J. D.

  Snowden, Philip

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1923–24.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £32,000,100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges for Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1924, in respect of an esti-
  mated net total cost of £52,510,000, and of liabilities outstanding on the first day of the year."
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 149.

  Division No. 325.]

  AYES.

  [1.0 a.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Ednam, Viscount

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Elliot, Capt. Waiter E. (Lanark)

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Ellis, R. G.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Apsley, Lord

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Cassels, J. D.

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Banks, Mitchell

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Becker, Harry

  Clayton, G. C.

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Bellairs, Commander Canyon W.

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Fremantle, Lieut.Colonel Francis E.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Furness, G. J.

  Berry, Sir George

  Collie, Sir John

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Cope, Major William

  Garland, C. S.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Blundell, F. N.

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Brass, Captain W.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Bruford, R.

  Dawson, Sir Philip

  Guthrie, Thomas Mauls

  Bruton, Sir James

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Buckingham, Sir H.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Halstead, Major D.

  Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Morris, Harold

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton)

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Murchison, C. K.

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Nall, Major Joseph

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Singleton, J. E.

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Stanley, Lord

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Paget, T. G.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Pease, William Edwin

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Penny, Frederick George

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hurst, Gerald B.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Peto, Basil E.

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Pielou, D. P.

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Waithamstow, E.)

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Price, E. G.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Privett, F. J.

  Tubbs, S. W

  King, Capt. Henry Douglas

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Raine, W.

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Ward, Col. L. (Kinston-upon-Hull)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Waring, Major Walter

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Lorden, John William

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Remer, J. R.

  Wells, S. R.

  Lougher, L.

  Remnant, Sir James

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Wilson, Lt.-Col. Leslie O. (P'tsm'th, S.)

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Winterton, Earl

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn,W)

  Wise, Frederick

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Manville, Edward

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Hacking and Major Hennessy.

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Hancock, John George

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Hardle, George D.

  Attlee, C. R.

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Harney, E. A.

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Duncan, C.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Barnes, A.

  Dunnico, H.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Batey, Joseph

  Ede, James Chuter

  Hastings, Patrick

  Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

  Edmonds, G.

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Bonwick, A.

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Briant, Frank

  Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.)

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Broad, F. A.

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Bromfield, William

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Herriotts, J.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Falconer, J.

  Hill, A.

  Buckle, J.

  Foot, Isaac

  Hinds, John

  Burgess, S.

  Gosling, Harry

  Hirst, G. H.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  Cape, Thomas

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Greenall, T.

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Charleton, H. C.

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Groves, T.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Collison, Levi

  Grundy, T. W.

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)-

  662

  663

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Paling, W.

  Sullivan, J.

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Tout, W. J.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Potts, John S.

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Lansbury, George

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Turner, Ben

  Lawson, John James

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Leach, W.

  Ritson, J.

  Warne, G. H.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Linfield, F. C.

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Webb, Sidney

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Rose, Frank H.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  McLaren, Andrew

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Weir, L. M.

  Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Westwood, J.

  March, S.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Whiteley, W.

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Sexton, James

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Middleton, G.

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Millar, J. D.

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Murnin, H.

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

  Snowden, Philip

  Wright, W.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Spoor, B. G.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Ammon and Mr. Lunn

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  AIR FORCE ESTIMATE, 1923–24.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,483,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for expenditure in respect of the Air Force Services, namely:

  £

  5.

  Air Ministry

  648,000

  6.

  Meteorological and Miscellaneous effective services

  179,000

  £

  7.

  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces

  238,000

  8.

  Civil Aviation

  287,000

  9.

  Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services

  131,000

  £1,483,000"

  Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 277; Noes, 134.

  Division No. 326.]

  AYES.

  [1.10 a.m.

  Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

  Butt, Sir Alfred

  Ellis, R. G.

  Ainsworth, Captain Charles

  Cadogan, Major Edward

  England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

  Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

  Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith

  Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

  Cassels, J. D.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

  Apsley, Lord

  Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

  Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

  Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

  Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

  Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

  Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

  Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M.

  Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

  Falcon, Captain Michael

  Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

  Chapman, Sir S.

  Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

  Balfour, George (Hampstead)

  Chilcott, Sir Warden

  Fawkes, Major F. H.

  Banks, Mitchell

  Churchman, Sir Arthur

  Flanagan, W. H.

  Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Foreman, Sir Henry

  Barnett, Major Richard W.

  Clayton, G. C.

  Forestier-Walker, L.

  Barnston, Major Harry

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

  Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

  Fraser, Major Sir Keith

  Becker, Harry

  Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

  Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

  Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

  Collie, Sir John

  Furness, G. J.

  Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

  Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

  Galbraith, J. F. W.

  Berry, Sir George

  Cope, Major William

  Ganzoni, Sir John

  Betterton, Henry B.

  Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

  Garland, C. S.

  Birchall, Major J. Dearman

  Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

  Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

  Blades, Sir George Rowland

  Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

  George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

  Blundell, F. N.

  Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

  Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham

  Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

  Curzon, Captain Viscount

  Gilbert, James Daniel

  Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

  Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

  Goff, Sir R. Park

  Brass, Captain W.

  Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

  Gray, Harold (Cambridge)

  Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

  Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

  Gretton, Colonel John

  Brittain, Sir Harry

  Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

  Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

  Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

  Dawson, Sir Philin

  Guthrie, Thomas Maule

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

  Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

  Gwynne, Rupert S.

  Bruford, R.

  Doyle, N. Grattan

  Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

  Bruton, Sir James

  Dudgeon, Major C. R.

  Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

  Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

  Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

  Hall, Rr-Adml. Sir W. (Liv'pl,W. D'by)

  Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

  Edge, Captain Sir William

  Halstead, Major D.

  Butcher, Sir John George

  Edmondson, Major A. J.

  Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

  Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

  Ednam, Viscount

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

  Harbord, Arthur

  Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)

  Morden, Col. W. Grant

  Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)

  Harrison, F. C.

  Morris, Harold

  Shepperson, E. W.

  Harvey, Major S. E.

  Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

  Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

  Hawke, John Anthony

  Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)

  Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

  Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

  Murchison, C. K.

  Sinclair, Sir A.

  Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

  Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

  Singleton, J. E.

  Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

  Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

  Skelton, A. N.

  Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

  Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

  Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

  Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

  Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

  Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

  Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

  Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

  Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

  Hiley, Sir Ernest

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hinds, John

  Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

  O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

  Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Stanley, Lord

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Paget, T. G.

  Steel, Major S. Strang

  Hood, Sir Joseph

  Parker, Owen (Kettering)

  Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

  Hopkins, John W. W.

  Pattinson, R. (Grantham)

  Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

  Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

  Pease, William Edwin

  Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

  Houfton, John Plowright

  Pennefather, De Fonblanque

  Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

  Penny, Frederick George

  Strauss, Edward Anthony

  Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

  Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Hudson, Capt. A.

  Perkins, Colonel E. K.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

  Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

  Peto, Basil E.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

  Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

  Philipson, Mabel

  Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

  Pielou, D. P.

  Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.

  Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

  Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray

  Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

  Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

  Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

  Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

  Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

  Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

  Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

  Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Price, E. G.

  Titchfield, Marquess of

  Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

  Privett, F. J.

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Rae, Sir Henry N.

  Tubbs, S. W.

  Kelley, Major Sir Frederick A.

  Raine, W.

  Turton, Edmund Russborough

  Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

  Rankin, Captain James Stuart

  Wallace, Captain E.

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

  Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

  Lamb, J. Q.

  Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

  Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

  Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

  Rees, Sir Beddoe

  Waring, Major Waiter

  Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

  Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

  Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip

  Remer, J. R.

  Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

  Lorden, John William

  Remnant, Sir James

  Wells, S. R.

  Lorimer, H. D.

  Reynolds, W. G. W.

  Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

  Laugher, L.

  Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

  Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

  White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

  Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

  Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

  Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

  Lumley, L. R.

  Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

  Winterton, Earl

  Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

  Robertson-Despencer, Major (Isigtn, W)

  Wise, Frederick

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

  Rogerson, Capt. J. E.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Wood, Maj. Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)

  Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

  Roundell, Colonel R. F.

  Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

  Manville, Edward

  Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

  Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

  Margesson, H. D. R.

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Yerburgh, R. D. T.

  Mason, Lieut.-Colonel C. K.

  Russell, William (Bolton)

  Mercer, Colonel H.

  Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Captain Douglas King.

  Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

  Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

  Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

  Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.

  Molloy, Major L. G. S.

  Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

  NOES.

  Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

  Entwistle, Major C. F.

  Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

  Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

  Fairbairn, R. R.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Attlee, C. R.

  Foot, Isaac

  Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

  Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

  Gosling, Harry

  Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

  Barnes, A.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Kirkwood, D.

  Batey, Joseph

  Gray, Frank (Oxford)

  Lansbury, George

  Bonwick, A.

  Greenall, T.

  Lawson, John James

  Briant, Frank

  Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

  Leach, W.

  Broad, F. A.

  Groves, T.

  Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley)

  Bromfield, William

  Grundy, T. W.

  Linfield, F. C.

  Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

  Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

  MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

  Buckle, J.

  Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Entee, V. L.

  Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

  Hancock, John George

  McLaren, Andrew

  Cape, Thomas

  Hardie, George D.

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Chapple, W. A.

  Harney, E. A.

  March, S.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Harris, Percy A.

  Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

  Clarke, Sir E. C.

  Hartshorn, Vernon

  Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

  Collison, Levi

  Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

  Middleton, G.

  Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

  Hayday, Arthur

  Millar, J. D.

  Darbishire, C. W.

  Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

  Henderson, T. (Glasgow)

  Mosley, Oswald

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Herriotts, J.

  Murnin, H.

  Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

  Hill, A.

  Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)

  Duffy, T. Gavan

  Hirst, G. H.

  Newbold, J. T. W.

  Duncan, C.

  Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

  O'Grady, Captain James

  Dunnico, H.

  Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)

  Oliver, George Harold

  Ede, James Chuter

  Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)

  Paling, W.

  Edmonds, G.

  John, William (Rhondda, West)

  Parker, H. (Hanley)

  Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

  Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

  Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

  666

  667

  Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

  Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

  Webb, Sidney

  Phillipps, Vivian

  Sitch, Charles H.

  Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

  Ponsonby, Arthur

  Smith, T. (Pontefract)

  Weir, L. M.

  Potts, John S.

  Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)

  Westwood, J

  Pringle, W. M. R.

  Spoor, B. G.

  White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

  Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

  Whiteley, W.

  Ritson, J.

  Sturrock, J. Leng

  Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

  Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

  Sullivan, J.

  Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

  Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

  Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

  Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

  Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

  Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

  Rose, Frank H.

  Tout, W. J.

  Wintringham, Margaret

  Royce, William Stapleton

  Trevelyan, C. P.

  Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

  Saklatvala, S.

  Turner, Ben

  Wright, W.

  Salter, Dr. A.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

  Scrymgeour, E.

  Warne, G. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lunn and Mr. Ammon.

  Sexton, James

  Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

  Shinwell, Emanuel

  Watts Morgan Lt. Col. D.(Rhondda)

  Resolution agreed to.

  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]
  Resolved,
  "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, the sum of £269,381,292 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

  NAVY EXPENDITURE, 1921–22.
  Resolution reported,
  "Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the

  SCHEDULE.

  Number of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1921–22. Votes.

  Differences between Exchequer Grants and Net Expenditure.

  Surpluses.

  Deficits.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guards, and Royal Marine

  —

  161,859

  3

  7

  2

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  1,201,519

  2

  9

  —

  3

  Medical Establishments and Services

  76,765

  7

  9

  —

  4

  Civilians employed on Fleet Service

  —

  91,243

  7

  4

  5

  Educational Services

  59,907

  19

  0

  —

  6

  Scientific Services

  89,424

  16

  2

  —

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  120,544

  5

  2

  —

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

  I. Personnel

  1,155,411

  14

  7

  —

  II. Materiel

  3,247,729

  7

  7

  —

  III. Contract Work

  811,863

  10

  3

  —

  9

  Naval Armaments

  672,532

  6

  11

  —

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad.

  1,100,115

  1

  7

  —

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  —

  713,513

  18

  4

  12

  Admiralty Office

  —

  27,841

  6

  4

  13

  Half Pay and Retired Pay

  68,299

  7

  1

  —

  14

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances.

  122,131

  17

  6

  —

  15

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities.

  —

  203,993

  8

  0

  —

  Amount written off as irrecoverable

  —

  69,934

  19

  11

  Total

  8,726,244

  16

  4

  1,268,386

  3

  6

  NET SURPLUS

  £7,457,858 12 10

  31st day of March, 1922, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Nary Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services but that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total difference between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  8,726,244

  16

  4

  Total Deficits

  1,268,386

  3

  6

  Net Surplus

  £7,457,858

  12

  10

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
  That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes after One o'Clock a.m.

HOUSING.
  STATE-ASSISTED HOUSES.
  STATE-ASSISTED HOUSES.
  BUILDING MATERIALS (PRICES).
  BUILDING MATERIALS (PRICES).
  SMALL-POX AND VACCINATION.
  SMALL-POX AND VACCINATION.
  CASUAL PAUPERS.
  CASUAL PAUPERS.
  BIRTH CONTROL (INFORMATION).
  BIRTH CONTROL (INFORMATION).
  CANCER.
  CANCER.
  NURSES (REGISTRATION).
  NURSES (REGISTRATION).
EX-SERVICE MEN.
  MENTAL CASES.
  MENTAL CASES.
  LAND SETTLEMENT, GLAMORGANSHIRE.
  LAND SETTLEMENT, GLAMORGANSHIRE.
  EMPLOYMENT (WAR GRAVES).
  EMPLOYMENT (WAR GRAVES).
  KING'S NATIONAL ROLL.
  KING'S NATIONAL ROLL.
  COASTGUAED SERVICE (PAY).
  COASTGUAED SERVICE (PAY).
  ENEMY ACTION CLAIM.
  ENEMY ACTION CLAIM.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS.
  ARGENTINA (COTTON IMPORTS).
  ARGENTINA (COTTON IMPORTS).
  RUMANIA (COMMERCIAL RELATIONS).
  RUMANIA (COMMERCIAL RELATIONS).
  MOTOR-TYRE MANUFACTURE (FOREIGN COMPETITION).
  MOTOR-TYRE MANUFACTURE (FOREIGN COMPETITION).
UNEMPLOYMENT.
  RELIEF WORK (CONTRACTS).
  RELIEF WORK (CONTRACTS).
  LAND DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY SCHEMES.
  LAND DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY SCHEMES.
  DOMESTIC SERVICE.
  DOMESTIC SERVICE.
  INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.
  INSURANCE BY INDUSTRIES.
  BENEFIT.
  BENEFIT.
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS ASSEMBLY (DISARMAMENT).
  LEAGUE OF NATIONS ASSEMBLY (DISARMAMENT).
  MERCHANT SHIPS (WAR RISK INSURANCE).
  MERCHANT SHIPS (WAR RISK INSURANCE).
  JUTLAND BATTLE (NARRATIVE).
  JUTLAND BATTLE (NARRATIVE).
  EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM (IMPROVEMENTS).
  EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM (IMPROVEMENTS).
  HEALTH VISITORS, SCOTLAND (TRAINING GRANT).
  HEALTH VISITORS, SCOTLAND (TRAINING GRANT).
  MINERS' NYSTAGMUS.
  MINERS' NYSTAGMUS.
  BARRICADES, WHITEHALL.
  BARRICADES, WHITEHALL.
  TAXATION (INTERNATIONAL COMPARISONS).
  TAXATION (INTERNATIONAL COMPARISONS).
  BEER DUTY (BREWERS AND TENANTS).
  BEER DUTY (BREWERS AND TENANTS).
  CROWN COLONIES (EX-ENEMY ALIENS).
  CROWN COLONIES (EX-ENEMY ALIENS).
  RAILWAY TUNNEL, KING'S CROSS.
  RAILWAY TUNNEL, KING'S CROSS.
Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.
LORD LAWRENCE OF KINGSGATE.
Charles Napier Lawrence, Esquire (commonly called the Honourable Charles Napier Lawrence), having been created Baron LAWRENCE OF KINGSGATE, of Holland House, Kingsgate, in the County of Kent—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD HUNSDON OF HUNSDON.
Herbert Cokayne Gibbs, Esquire (commonly called the Honourable Herbert Cokayne Gibbs), having been created Baron HUNSDON OF HUNSDON, of Briggens, in the County of Hertford—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

PROPERTY OF EX-ENEMY NATIONALS.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, in consequence of the answer which was given by the Government in yesterday's debate on the impounding of the debts and property of ex-enemy nationals, I give notice of the following Resolutions to be moved at an early date:

(1), That this country should not sanction any policy violating or weakening the generally recognised rule of International Law which gives to private property on land immunity from capture;

(2), That this country should not sanction any action which interferes with the accepted principles applicable to the security of investments or other property, or permit the expropriation thereof without providing an adequate scheme of effective compensation;

(3), That the Courts of this country should be open without discrimination to all persons for the recovery of debts due and owing to them and over which the Courts have jurisdiction;

(4), That any dealing with the property or debts of ex-enemy nationals which does not comply with the above stated principles should be discontinued.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When does the noble and learned Lord propose to take those Resolutions?
LORD PARMOOR: Not till after the adjournment. I propose to take them, if I can, on the second Wednesday after we resume our sittings in the autumn.

BOROUGH COUNCILLORS (ALTERATION OF NUMBER) BILL. [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (THE EARL OK ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce the Borough Councillors (Alteration of Number) Bill: and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

RAILWAY FIRES ACT (1905) AMENDMENT BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment made by the Lords agreed to, without, amendment.

BRITISH EMPIRE EXHIBITION (1924) INCORPORATED (MEMORANDUM AGREEMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I understand that the noble Duke, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, will be good enough to answer a question, which I indicated during the debate on the British Empire Exhibition Bill yesterday, when the noble Duke, owing to some public engagement, was unable to be in his place.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I very much regret that, as the noble Earl has stated, it was impossible for me to be in my place yesterday afternoon and to move the Second Reading of the Bill. I believe the question to which he refers is as to why we delayed until so late a period in the Session in introducing this Bill. The reason is an extremely simple one. We had been endeavouring to find a method whereby the payment of a salary to a member of the board could
1346
be made, as recommended in the Report issued by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. We examined every method of doing this that would avoid the necessity of introducing a Bill, and the reason why we were driven to so late a period of the Session was that we had hoped, had it been possible, to achieve our object without legislation. It was only at the very last moment that we arrived at the conclusion that it was necessary to proceed by legislation, and therefore the Bill was brought in.
I certainly do not wish the House to be unduly pressed on this point, but it would be a matter of very considerable convenience if your Lordships were able to dispose of the Bill before the adjournment for the Recess. The Bill has to be passed before the end of the Session, and, as it has to comply with the Standing Orders in another place, we should like to dispose of the Bill so that it may go through the necessary stages in another place. If your Lordships were anxious to delay the Third Reading of the Bill until after the Recess, I should raise no objection, but still it would be very much more convenient for us if we were able to dispose of it in this portion of the Session.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I can assure the noble Duke that we shall do our best to help him to get the Bill through this House, although I may have a small Amendment to move in Committee.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Amendments proposed by the Committee made.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Amendments proposed by the Committee made.

HUNGARIAN REPARATIONS.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I beg to ask if any further progress has been made with reference to the settlement of Hungarian Reparations. This Question,

1347
which appears in my name upon the Paper, is really of more importance than it seems to be, because it concerns the peace and prosperity of the whole of Central Europe. I confess I am rather surprised that this Question has not been brought forward by some more responsible person than myself, more especially by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, who for so long occupied the position of Foreign Secretary. The statesmen who negotiated the various Treaties at Paris are always somewhat impatient of any criticism upon their performances, but I do not think that my noble friend Lord Curzon need feel any sensitiveness upon this point because, if report is to be believed, he was not consulted as much as he ought to have been, and I will pay him the compliment of saying that if he had been consulted to a greater extent the condition of Europe would in all probability be much more satisfactory than it is at the present moment.
Whatever people may feel upon this particular point, I think it will be generally admitted that the question of the treatment of Reparations was the least successful amongst the performances of the statesmen to whom I have alluded. In the case of Germany, the total was fixed, if I am not mistaken, by certain members of this House—not, I hasten to say, by my noble friend Lord Curzon—at the figure of £20,000,000,000; I am not sure that it was not originally fixed at £40,000,000,000. That was reduced, as we all know, to £11,000,000,000, and in 1921 it was again reduced to the figure of £6,600,000,000, at which it stands at the present moment. Speaking for myself, I cannot help feeling that we shall be somewhat; fortunate if we obtain one-third of that amount eventually.
In the case of Austria, a Commission (an enormous army, so to speak, both male and female), proceeded to Vienna and remained there for a year, consuming all the available resources of the place. They finally reported that there was nothing to be got out of Austria and, as everybody knows, Austria has been extricated from her difficulty by means of a loan which has been obtained through the intermediary of the League of Nations and is administered under the League of Nations. In the case of Turkey—Turkey, by the way, being, possibly, the greatest criminal of all our opponents—no Reparations,
1348
so far as I know, have been asked for at all. The only case which has been satisfactorily dealt with is that of Bulgaria. In Bulgaria Reparations were originally fixed at the fantastic sum of £90,000,000 sterling and, if I have not been mistaken, that sum has been reduced to I something like £24,000,000. But I would like especially to draw attention to this fact that although the question of Bulgarian Reparations has been settled, the Commission is still established there practically in full force, and the head of the English section of the Reparations Commission at Sofia is actually drawing a larger salary than the British Minister in that place. I am curious to see how much longer he will continue to do so. If I were in his position, I should feel some scruple about drawing a disproportionate salary from a broken and bankrupt country.
Now I come to Hungary. In the case of Hungary, of course, a Reparations Commission proceeded in full force to Budapest in the usual way, and for about two years or more they have been studying what Hungary ought to pay without being able, to arrive at any conclusion. I would like to remark, incidentally, that when the Reparations Commission arrived at Budapest the Hungarian crown stood at 700 to the £; to-day, if I am not mistaken, it stands at anything between 40,000 and 50,000 to the £ sterling. It is not surprising, therefore, that this Commission has been unable to fix upon any definite figure. Everybody admits that there is no money to be got out of Hungary at the present time. The financial position of Hungary is about as hopeless as anything can well be. I do not know what their National Debt amounts to, but the deficit on their present Budget is something like forty milliards of kronen, and everybody admits that if payment is insisted upon at the present moment, not only will the Hungarian crown collapse, but the whole of the Hungarian State will collapse, too. The only chance for that country is to obtain a loan by means of the League of Nations, and the only possibility of effecting this object is the release of certain assets which are claimed by the Reparations Commission as a first charge. To put it quite shortly, the only chance for Hungary is for her to be put in the same position as Austria and to obtain a loan on the same terms.

1349
The position was very clearly explained by Count Bethlen in an interview which he accorded, I think, to The Times correspondent on July 7. Count Bethlen's words, I think, exactly expressed the situation. He said:—
"What is the issue? It is nothing less than the existence of Hungary. We are striving to-day solely for an economic chance to live, and compared with that all other questions are insignificant…Without the League, so far as I can see, it will be quite impossible for Hungary to obtain a loan, and without a loan, despite all the sacrifices and all the economies which Hungary can and must make, it will be impossible for us to exist."
In pursuance of this policy of trying to obtain a loan through the League of Nations, Count Bethlen, recently Prime Minister of Hungary, made lately a tour which included this country, France and Italy—a melancholy pilgrimage which must have recalled to some people the equally melancholy pilgrimage of M. Thiers when the fortunes of France were at their lowest ebb.
When Count Bethlen came to this country he was received, as might well have been expected, in a sympathetic manner, and I believe that his proposals were approved by His Majesty's Government. In the same way, when he went to Rome, Italy being a country which is greatly interested in the question—because, unlike ourselves, she is entitled to claim twenty-five per cent. of Hungarian Reparations—he met with an equally favourable reception. But when he went to Paris he met with a rebuff. When the question was brought before the Reparations Commission, which, in this instance, consisted of a representative of this country, a representative of France, a representative of Italy, and a representative of the Little Entente, owing to the casting vote of the Chairman who was the French representative—why he should have a casting vote I do not know—this proposal was rejected. At the present moment, therefore, it looks as though Hungary was doomed to economic ruin, if not to something worse.
In case anyone should feel surprised that a great nation like France, which has always prided itself upon its generous policy, should have decided that this unfortunate country was not to be relieved, the explanation is a fairly simple one. It has been the policy of France ever since the war to build up a
1350
series of satellite States who will be of military assistance, if necessary, in the event of another war, and in return for this hypothetical military assistance the policy of the French Government has naturally always accommodated itself to the policy of the Little Entente. It is a somewhat strange fact that, although the French Government does not show any inclination to pay its Debts elsewhere, yet these satellite States are always able to obtain either loans or credits for the purposes of munitions of war. Unfortunately, the views taken upon Reparation questions by this country and by other countries are diametrically opposite. We look upon Reparations from the economic point of view. Other nations, unfortunately, look upon them from the political point of view. In other words, we look upon Reparations as a method of obtaining some return for the gigantic expense to which we were put during the war, while other nations look upon them from the political side as a means of paying off old scores and of gratifying political hatreds.
It is a melancholy fact—I dare say my noble friend will reprove me for saying so—that the Little Entente countries have no particular desire to see a re-established Hungary. With great ingenuity they have persuaded a number of simple people, here and elsewhere, that Hungary is a dangerous, aggressive and pugnacious State of whom they stand in fear. As a matter of fact, these Hungarians at this moment possess a so-called Army of 30,000 men, who actually cost less than the Austrian Army, which is administered by the League of Nations. Each of the Little Entente countries can put in the field a force of well over a million men, and, in order to foster this idea that Hungary is a truculent State with which nothing can be done, every kind of trumpery incident is magnified into an event of vast importance. I learn, for instance, that the other day the Control Commission—that is to say, the Commission which is supposed to superintend the disarmament of Hungary—on arriving at a certain town called Keskemet were stoned by the populace.
It is no doubt a very discreditable thing that such an incident should happen at all, but what, to my mind, is infinitely more discreditable is that a Commission of

1351
this kind should be in existence at all. There never was anything in the nature of disarmament to do in Hungary. Hungary was disarmed. Everything was taken away from it by the Rumanians long ago, and nothing remains. The Allied Missions which still infest, if I may use the term, ex-enemy countries are little short of a curse. Two years ago, when I was in Berlin, it was submitted to me by a very important official of the Control Commission there that the work was completed, and he was corroborated by no less a person than the French General at the head of the Mission. Yet the Missions go on, and there does not appear the smallest chance of any of them coming to an end.
I would like noble Lords to put themselves, if they can, in the position of these ex-enemy countries. Supposing that five years after the war we had here a Control Commission, consisting of Turks, Austrians, Bulgars and Germans, living here at colossal expense, drawing, the humblest of them, twelve times as much as Mr. Baldwin, our present Prime Minister, and that these people were going about the country searching for arms, looking for old rifles or some trumpery matter of that kind, is it supposed that they would meet with a friendly reception? My impression is that if this sort of Commission existed in this country it would have a very much worse time of it than these Missions have experienced in any country on the Continent. The fact is that so far from Hungary being a danger to other countries, and being a well-armed and truculent State, it stands in the greatest danger of being partitioned by its neighbours. I am not sure whether the Hungarians realise it themselves, but I am inclined to think that Hungary at the present moment is in very much the same position as Poland was in the eighteenth century, and that it would take very little in order to bring about a partition of that country.
It will, perhaps, have been gathered from what I have said that I do not see why Hungary should pay any Reparations at all. Hungary was more hardly treated than any State at Paris. I remember the late M. Stambulisky saying to me last autumn, "Bulgaria has been treated hardly enough, but our treatment has been mild compared to that of Hungary."
1352
I think he was speaking only the truth. Sixty-five per cent. of their territory has gone, two-thirds of their population has gone, millions have been transferred to alien rule without being consulted in the matter at all, and the economic development of the country has been fatally injured by the capricious frontiers imposed at Paris. But, quite apart from that, Hungary has made very great sacrifices since the war. It is true that no money, so far as I know, has been paid, because there has not been any money in the country, but deliveries in kind have been made to Italy, Serbia. Rumania, and even to Greece. Why Greece? You might just as well say that the Portuguese or Brazilians should ask for Reparations in kind.
To prove how unjust these exactions are, it is a notorious fact that these countries, which have obtained Reparations from Hungary in the shape of cattle, have, as soon as they have obtained them, actually sold the cattle to some other State. In addition to these sacrifices, the Hungarian Government have honestly endeavoured to carry out economy. They dismissed at least 11,000 officials last year. The head of the State only draws between £400 and £500 in our money, and a Minister of State of the rank of my noble friend Lord Curzon draws something like £40 in our money. Quite apart from that, this unfortunate country has suffered from severe internal troubles. Everybody remembers the expeditions of the late unfortunate Emperor, which were the cause of the greatest danger to the country. They had an interregnum of Bolshevism that lasted four months, from which every other country, with the exception of Russia, has been saved. The Serbs occupied the only coal-bearing district in the country for a couple of years, and, worse than all, the country has had to suffer from a Rumanian occupation in time of peace which lasted for nearly a year, and which only came to an end after at least eleven ineffectual ultimatums had been launched at Bucharest from Paris. In the course of the occupation of Hungary the Rumanians plundered this unfortunate country to an extent which has been calculated by an expert authority at anything from £80,000,000 to £100,000,000 sterling.
I wish my noble friend, or, for that matter, any other member of this House

1353
could go to Hungary, or rather to Rumania, and see the result of the Rumanian occupation. When you enter Rumania from the western side you pass mile after mile of railway material, which was seized in time of peace from Austria-Hungary, and which has been lying rotting and unused there to the present day. I have calculated that if you were to take this looted and derelict railway material and spread it out over a single line it would reach very nearly from Euston to Crewe. To my mind it is one of the most deplorable spectacles that can be witnessed in Europe at the present day, and for wanton waste and selfishness it can only be paralleled by the deliberate damage inflicted by the German Armies in France And the Rumanians are the people who have the sublime impudence to claim Reparations from Hungary at the present moment. So far as my information goes—I do not suppose any attention will be paid to it—I do not see why Hungary, in consequence of what they have suffered, should pay any Reparations at all. That, apparently, is not the view of the Hungarians themselves. In spite of their misfortunes, they are still a proud nation and are prepared to pay, so far as they are able to pay. They are prepared to pay if they are given a chance, and they are prepared also to carry out loyally every provision in the Treaty provided they are given a fair chance.
I do not like to conclude what appears to be a series of complaints without making a suggestion, which no doubt has already occurred to the noble Marquess. The representatives of the Little Entente frequently come to this country for money, and only a few days ago the Rumanian representative was here in search of money. I understand that he met with rather a frigid reception because the Rumanian Government had been passing legislation which has the effect of depriving British subjects of their property. My suggestion is this—that neither Rumania nor any of these Governments should be given one single penny, that every impediment should be put in the way of their raising loans in this country, until they have agreed to a satisfactory settlement of Hungarian Reparations. I do not know whether other noble Lords feel as I do on this matter, but it seems to me a monstrous thing that a civilised State should be condemned to absolute economic ruin in
1354
order to gratify political hatred. If the proposals which Hungary has put forward are refused that country will either become the centre and prey of Bolshevism, in which case it will be a plague spot in the centre of Europe, or it will be divided in partition amongst her neighbours. That is a fate which nobody can contemplate with equanimity. Whichever happens, it would be a disaster to Europe, and I trust that the noble Marquess, when he comes to reply, will be able to make some statement which will reassure us, and Europe generally.
LORD CHARNWOOD: My Lords, none of your Lordships who may have visited the new States which once made up Austria-Hungary will feel that my noble friend has, on a single point, exaggerated his case. The severity of the peace settlement in regard to Hungary was extreme, and it has proved, in fact, infinitely harsher than those who were responsible for it contemplated at the time. Let me at once add that, so far as the harshness consisted in the annexation of a great deal of territory, I do not regard that re-arrangement, if it was wrong, as a wrong that should be undone. The re-arrangement of territory that took place has turned out to be a calamity. A future re-arrangement intended to set it right would be a further calamity; that is all. Impossible as it is, and absurd as it is, to expect any living Hungarian not to have some hopes of restoring somewhat of his country's former greatness, I do not believe that that is the direction in which they ought to look, nor do I believe that any of their friends here would encourage them to do so. But the harshness of the peace settlement for Hungary is making it certain that that part of the world must be a menace to future peace, unless Hungary's successful neighbours treat her with the most scrupulous justice, and even with sympathy and liberality.
Your Lordships are probably aware what the map of the ancient kingdom of Hungary looked like, and what the present State of Hungary looks like. If you put a shilling on the top of a half crown that is about how the two areas compare. The arrangement of territory was carried out on the principle of nationalism, and all of us, in general terms, sympathised entirely with the application of that principle to that part

1355
of Europe; many of us, perhaps, without clearly realising what its application meant. What it did mean, so far as it was justly applied, was this: That in the midst of a country where people were trading with one another and living more or less prosperously, hundreds and hundreds of miles of new frontiers were run—they were run along no physical feature but upon lines of supposed nationality, as arbitrary as if you were to separate the Highlands of Scotland from the Lowlands and tack them on to Ireland—and along these hundreds of miles of new frontiers there sprung up impediments to trade and intercourse and industry; impediments of currency; Customs barriers; and very harsh passport regulations causing endless personal grievances and hardships.
As to the degree in which these grievances were felt it can be illustrated by referring to the constant recurrence of incidents such as this. An official of the Hungarian Government cannot go to visit his aged and sick mother in what was only a year or two ago his own old country home. That is an instance of which I know, and that is the kind of thing which occurs. I will not state that a man has had to take out a passport, going hundreds of miles in order to get it, before he could cross the road to milk his own cow, but such an instance would illustrate the sort of grievances now existing on the part of thousands of the Hungarian people. That which was done was done in obedience to a Liberal principle, but, nevertheless, it was, as we see now, a careless act of great retrogression towards barbarism, as it set up these barriers to trade, was harmful to the States which annexed the territory and crushing to the State which lost two-thirds of its area. A mere consideration of geographical facts must show that, economically, Hungary is absolutely crushed and in a condition which makes it absurd to expect Reparations.
I should like to add another observation which is pertinent to the economic situation in Hungary. The principle of nationality was enforced in favour of neighbours that surrounded Hungary on all sides, and enforced with a rigour which, if it had been followed elsewhere, would, for example, have sliced off the German parts of Czecho-Slovakia itself
1356
and tacked them on to Germany. But whereas, in favour of the Hungarians, economic and geographical considerations were never allowed to be set against the consideration of nationality, it was not so on the other side, and among the annexed portions of Hungarian territory were to be found places which were actually Hungarian in their population but which happened to have coal mines or oil wells, or to be very important railway junctions. The annexation of these places—one can quite understand the pretext for it and the temptation that existed—was really a matter of pure greed, and was a most grievous economic injury to the country from which these Reparations are required. Then, to complete the picture, Reparations are demanded on the top of everything.
Hungary is a country which excites sympathies and antipathies even in the same breast. All of us feel a certain attraction towards that great, vigorous and ancient people, and all of us well know that it has represented in the past a highly conservative, aristocratic society, in many respects an exaggeration of that which we imagine to have been the state of our own country some time in the eighteenth century. Thus sympathies are divided, for there is no doubt that ancient wrongs, or, at any rate, hardships to neighbouring races are to be laid to the door of Hungary if we look at her past history. But they are irrelevant now. The Reparations to be paid are supposed to be paid on account of the war. By whom and to whom are they to be paid? They are to be paid by that constituent element in the German-Austrian combination which entered into the late war with the least gladness and, as is, I believe, now well known, with a good deal of reluctance and not without absolute actual protest on the part of its Ministers.
Reparations are not by any means exclusively to be paid to the people on whom war was made. Part of these Reparations are due to Italy. That country, for reasons such as those which I am endeavouring to suggest, is perfectly willing to let go her hold upon the securities that were pledged for Reparations. Part is to go to the people of ancient Serbia, to whom no one can grudge what they obtain. Part is to go to Rumania, of which Lord Newton has spoken in terms which make it unnecessary for me to say anything more

1357
But a very large part of that which has been taken from the Hungarian population because they were our enemies in the war, is being paid over to Transylvanians, to Slovenes, to Croats, to Slovaks, to Czechs, and to a very large number of people concerning whom it is no exaggeration to say that they were no more our Allies during the great war than were the Hungarians themselves. This whole matter is an instance of the greatest hardship which is bound to keep up for a long time to come a rankling sense of injustice, and bound also, as I should have thought must be obvious, to retard in a quite ruinous manner the economic restoration of all that portion of Europe and economically to redound to the harm, and not to the advantage, of the States which are insisting upon these payments.
Let me just say this, in conclusion. It is, to my mind, a very great misfortune that almost every learned or historically-minded or geographically-minded Englishman who travels in South-Eastern Europe and comes back and tells us about the people of whom he has been making friends, is a partisan of one or the other of the races of that portion of the globe, is the friend of that particular race, whatever it may be, and is in consequence generally the enemy of some neighbouring race, whether it be an opposition of Turks and Greeks, Bulgars and Serbs, Hungarians and Czechs, or some other. I can assure your Lordships that it is in no sort of spirit of partisanship on behalf of Hungary, or because my sympathies are limited to a race among which I have friends, that I am approaching this subject, nor will any of your Lordships suggest that Lord Newton has approached it in that spirit.
I think that the statesmen of a country like Czecho-Slovakia, able men to whom, if one's voice could reach them, it would be possible to address an argument of this kind, will, in view of the precarious future before them, make the greatest conceivable mistake if they say: "Here is Hungary feeling herself wronged, distressed and weakened; let us keep her down, let us be sure that she cannot recover her strength sufficiently to be a danger to us." That line of policy and of sentiment must, I believe, in the end be absolutely calamitous to themselves. The true course of statesmanship and of
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wisdom on the part of any of the peoples surrounding Hungary and of the nations of the Little Entente is, I am absolutely convinced, to look a little forward in the future, to endeavour to re-establish as soon as possible the economic prosperity of the whole of that region of Europe, and to endeavour to efface from the minds of the children of a vanquished people that which cannot, of course, be effaced in a day or two from the minds of their present leaders, that sense of wrong which is something other and far more bitter than the sense of defeat.
I have detained your Lordships longer than I intended, but I entertain the strongest feeling that, whether it be our French friends or our friends in Czecho-slovakia, to the extent to which they are actuated, as they do appear in this matter to be actuated, by the instinct of keeping their ancient enemies down, to that extent they are committing a disastrous error which must in time alienate from them the sympathy of the civilized world, which is of the very greatest importance to thorn and for the lack of which they are very likely in the future to suffer bitterly.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, having lately been in Hungary, I should like to say with what pleasure I have listened to the speech of Lord Newton. I sincerely hope that his remarks will be sympathetically noted by everybody. Unfortunately, I am afraid there is a great deal of ignorance amongst the general public with regard to the state to which Hungary has been reduced by the Peace Treaty and the enormous reductions that have been made in the economic resources of Hungary—the way in which that nation has lost its forests and minerals and been reduced practically to what has been described as an agricultural rectangle comprising only a small portion of the ancient lands of Hungary.
We should always remember that there is, perhaps, more sympathy between the Hungarian and British peoples than amongst any others in Eastern Europe. I do not suppose there was any country where English prisoners were better and more sympathetically treated than in Hungary, and I wish to mention one little item which may appeal to your Lordships. We are all of us interested in agriculture.

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Hungary is a country, as your Lordships know, of great plains, lending itself to agriculture on a large scale. To show the economic poverty of the nation at present, I was informed the other day on good authority that, although there are very large numbers of steam ploughs and cultivation plants scattered about the country, most of which came from England, yet by far the greater number are lying idle, simply and solely through lack of fuel and because the Hungarians are unable, owing to the depreciation in currency, to pay for the import of the coal which is necessary to work those plants. I merely mention that as an instance that will appeal to your Lordships. I hope that the way in which the economic resources of the country have been depicted, and the friendly feelings that that country has always had towards England, may be sympathetically noted.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I do not wish to go further into the matters mentioned by Lord Newton, because my information would merely support what he has said, but before the noble Marquess replies, I should like to suggest what appears to me to be the only form of remedy, and that a practical remedy. Hungary applied for League assistance on the same lines as that given by the League to Austria. The effect of that on Austria has been marvellous, as regards the reconstruction of industrial and moral life within the Austrian dominion. That was possible in the case of Austria, because the Reparations Commission assented to the remitting of the liens of the Allied and Associated Powers, so that the loan to Austria would be a first charge upon the resources of Austria.
Hungary, as Lord Newton pointed out, made exactly the same application as was made by Austria to the League, and if the Reparation Commission had acted towards Hungary in the same way as it acted towards Austria, I think there is every probability that the financial and economic position of Hungary would have derived the same advantage as has been derived in Austria, and there might be the commencement of new life and industrial energy in Hungary. The question I want to put is simply this: Can the noble Marquess not use the influence of this country, either upon the Reparation Commission or with the Council of the League of Nations, to secure that
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Hungary shall be given the same advantages as have been given already to Austria? I am sure that on practical grounds that is the way in which an outlet may be found from the present distresses of Hungary, and successfully found if the Reparation Commission take that attitude.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, following on the remark of Lord Parmoor, I hope that my noble friend, the Leader of the House, when he replies, will be able to give us information with regard to the Customs Duties, or rather Customs barriers, which have been imposed upon Hungary by the surrounding countries Lord Newton, in his recital of the injuries done to Hungary by the Treaty, did not refer to the matter of Customs Duties. It is perfectly impossible for any small country, in a truncated form like Hungary, to have any commercial prosperity if all her neighbours are active to prevent her having any proper trade. I do not know what are the Customs Duties at the present time, but I do know that two years ago they were extremely oppressive, and really rendered all trade impossible on the part of Hungary. It is desirable that we should know whether Hungarian commercial life is being paralysed by any such system at the present time, I think that in that abortive attempt to obtain a peaceful settlement of the whole of Europe by various Treaties one thing ought to have been done, and that was to secure that there should be Free Trade between these countries. If it is the case that the Customs barriers are oppressive. I think an attempt should be made to give some breathing space to Hungary.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON): My Lords, in replying to my noble friends who have addressed the House, and all of whom have made speeches very sympathetic to Hungary, I will confine myself as closely as I can to the Question on the Paper, and will ask leave of your Lordships not to deal with the extraneous issues, some of which have been alluded to occasionally by Lord Newton and by subsequent speakers. Perhaps the best way in which I can deal with the case and satisfy the House will be by giving a succinct and, so far as I can make it, strictly accurate

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account of the events which have led up to the position that my noble friends have described, and in some cases deplored, this afternoon.
It was by Article 161 of the Treaty of Trianon that Hungary accepted, along with Austria, complete responsibility for the damage done as a consequence of the war to the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals by the aggression of Austria-Hungary and her Allies. The Allied and Associated Powers recognised that the two new States, with their diminished territory and resources, would not be able to make complete reparation. For this reason it was left to the Inter-Allied Commission, called the Reparation Commission, to determine the total liability of each of those countries. The payments were to be in instalments, extending over thirty years, dating from May 1, 1921, and Hungary agreed to accept the payments as a first charge on all her assets and Revenues. Actually, as I think Lord Newton said, the Reparation Commission has yet to assess the total liability of Hungary. Towards the end of last year the prospect of such an assessment appeared imminent. At that time, however, His Majesty's Government received repeated intimations from our Minister at Budapest that, in spite of the not inconsiderable efforts of the Hungarian Government to refrain from inflation, and to maintain a financial equilibrium, the Budget deficit and the financial position generally were such that any demand by the Reparation Commission for a large sum would involve Hungary in a financial collapse similar to that from which Austria was then suffering, but is now, I am glad to say, slowly recovering. This presentation of the position was confirmed by expert opinion which we received from other quarters.
Accordingly, in November, 1922, we informed our representative on the Reparation Commission in emphatic terms of our solemn opinion that the Commission, before taking any decisive step, should weigh well the evidence at their disposal as to the economic position of post-war Hungary, and the probable consequences of any large demand for payments. Furthermore, at the beginning of this year it became obvious that
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Hungary could no longer hold up her head or escape financial collapse unless she were able to obtain a foreign loan. The precedent of Austria, however, made it abundantly clear that no such loan could be raised unless the Hungarian Government were put in a position to offer certain State Revenues as security. But, as a matter of fact, the whole of those Revenues were already mortgaged under the Peace Treaty. Accordingly the Hungarian Government resolved to approach the Reparation Commission in Paris to give them a frank and comprehensive statement of their financial position, and, having convinced them that no Reparation payments were for the time possible, to ask, first, for a moratorium, and, secondly, for the release of the necessary Revenues for the purpose of a long term loan.
In pursuance of this policy, the Hungarian Government first sounded the principal money markets of Europe as to the possibility of raising a loan, if favourable conditions could be shown to exist. Then, the Hungarian Prime Minister, Count Bethlen, and his Minister of Finance went abroad. They visited Paris, and they laid their case before the Commission. They made it clear that they would gladly see the financial position of their country generally, including that of Reparation, referred to the League of Nations, as in the case of Austria. And there was little doubt that they were prepared, should the advice have been given, to accept a measure of foreign control over their finances. Subsequently, the Hungarian Ministers paid a visit to London. My noble friend Lord Newton described this as a melancholy pilgrimage. I own that when I had the opportunity, on more than one occasion, of conversing with Count Bethlen, I did not recognise in him a very melancholy pilgrim; at any rate, my conversation with him was of a character, I think, to abate any melancholy which he might have felt on the other side of the Channel. We were sympathetic to the Hungarian appeal. Our view was that it was the function of the Reparation Commission to give its opinion on the technical questions whether Hungary should be granted a moratorium, and be enabled to raise a foreign loan, and that then the question

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could be referred to the League to secure the necessary financial and political guarantees.
This view was also held by the Italian Government, and we both earnestly hoped that the Reparation Commission, by a decision on these lines, would make a contribution of first-rate importance to the re-establishment of confidence in the economic stability of that part of Europe. These hopes were, I regret to say, disappointed. The joint British and Italian proposal was opposed by the French representative, as has been pointed out this afternoon, and also by the common delegate representing the countries of the Little Entente, Greece, and Poland, and it was finally defeated, as has been pointed out, by the casting vote of the French president. It was much to be deplored, in our opinion, that the French Government, before they took this step, should not have discussed the position with ourselves. Actually, the Commission recognised that Hungary was in need of a loan, but the release of Revenues was made subject to conditions which rendered it certain that no loan could be raised. Thus a deadlock was produced in these transactions.
But here I am bound to say this, in order to hold the scales absolutely even. There were other parties in the case whose action was not less to be deplored. One would have thought that at the moment when they were asking the principal Allied Powers and the neighbouring States to waive certain legal rights, in the interests primarily of Hungary's financial stability, this would have also been the occasion for avoiding the slightest appearance of contumacy or ill-faith, but this was not what happened. My noble friend Lord Newton said nothing about this or, at any rate, he minimised it, but a number of incidents did occur in Hungary, the effect of which was most unfortunate.
An individual who had given information to the Inter-Allied Military Mission of Control in Hungary in regard to concealed stores of military munitions—and there were such stores—that is, who had informed them of a direct violation of the Treaty, and who had, in so doing, given the Commission the help which they had a right to receive, and which it was the duty of the Hungarian Government to give them, was arrested, tried by a
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Hungarian military court, and condemned to death. Further, no inclination was shown to yield to certain very legitimate demands of the Ambassadors' Conference in the matter of disarmament. A series of fatal and, as I think, futile frontier incidents was permitted to continue; and, finally, in the case which was somewhat minimised by my noble friend Lord Newton, a very gross instance of obstruction to, and attack upon, the Military Mission of Control in the due discharge of their duties was punished with a quite unpardonable inadequacy.
These incidents made it very difficult for His Majesty's Government to pursue their appeal to Hungary's neighbour States to take a long-sighted view of their own best interests in relation to Hungary's financial position. I do not desire to lay undue stress on this aspect of the case. I am glad to say that Hungary has since realised the great mistake of which she was guilty, and has shown an earnest desire to make amends. The particular incident to which I have-referred, and which Lord Newton mentioned in passing, is now liquidated and may be dismissed, and we can concentrate our attention on what is the really important thing—namely, the financial aspect of the case with which we are confronted. We are, accordingly, giving our full support to the appeal of Hungary to all Powers who are represented on the Reparation Commission, and we have addressed a special appeal to France. Talking of conversations, I had a long conversation on the subject with Dr. Benes, the Foreign Minister of the Czecho-Slovakian State, when he was here the other day, and I was glad to note a friendly attitude on his part. And I am more than hopeful that at the meeting of the Little Entente, to which he was going, and which is due to take place in a few days from now, Jugo-Slavia, his State Czecho-Slovakia, and Rumania will see that their economic and other interests will best be served by enabling Hungary to raise a loan, subject to the necessary conditions and guarantees.
Therefore our attitude may be summed up as follows. We desire to prevent the financial collapse of Hungary, with its incalculable consequences. We desire to see in force a complete scheme of reconstruction, with suitable safeguards at the earliest possible moment, because we know, from the example of Austria, that

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delay involves larger sums of money, to say nothing of greater sacrifice on the part of the population which we desire to assist. We are further convinced that no financial aid on a sufficient scale can be forthcoming for Hungary except under a scheme supported by the League of Nations. No other body can command the necessary political support to obtain undertakings similar to those which were given in the case of Austria. No other body possesses the necessary influence to secure the placing of loans and the necessary authority to control the financial reforms which the Hungarian Government will have to carry through. And, lastly, we doubt if any scheme for balancing the Hungarian Budget would gain the confidence of the financial world unless it were put forward on the authority of the Financial Committee of the League. We earnestly hope, therefore, that the Reparation Commission will reconsider their decision of May last and will refer the question without delay to the League of Nations. The experts of the League might then work out the scheme of reconstruction with political, military and financial safeguards and guarantees, for submission to the Council of the League at their meeting at the end of this month.
But, my Lords, may I add, m conclusion, this word of entirely friendly advice? If we are to give this assistance, and I think I have promised it in no ungenerous form, a reciprocal obligation rests upon Hungary herself. There is, and it was never more patent than in Lord Charnwood's speech, a great deal of friction in that part of the world. There are all these difficulties arising from Customs Duties and otherwise, inevitable in the lacerated frontiers of States broken up in the agony of war. All these conditions exist, and are a perpetual source of trouble and even of danger. Just as we have appealed to her neighbour States to establish good and friendly relations with Hungary, so it is essential that Hungary should be on good terms with the great Powers of Europe. It would be a very foolish thing on her part if she were to alienate any one of us at the present time, and in order to escape that possible danger, of course she must do her best to fulfil the obligations which she accepted under the Treaty of Trianon. She must retain our confidenee, and she must remove the suspicion of her neighbours
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whose co-operation is really essential to her future revival and welfare. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor, asked us to act in the case of Hungary on the lines in which we have already successfully acted in the case of Austria. That is exactly what we are endeavouring to do. The case of Austria and the Austrian loan is there to encourage us, and Hungary will do well to shape her conduct as we will endeavour to shape ours, by that most fruitful example.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, I have nothing to add in the way of argument or information to the speeches which have already been delivered. I have only a very few words to say. I entirely agree with all that the noble Marquess opposite has just said in regard to all these ex-enemy States, such as Hungary, which are in need of assistance, that it must be made very clear that they have good will, so far as it is in their power, to perform the obligations undertaken by them under the Peace Treaties, particularly the obligation with regard to disarmament, and that they should afford every facility to the Allies to exercise their powers under those Treaties to see that those obligations are being fulfilled. I think it is only right that, whereas in the case of Hungary there was a disposition to interfere with the exercise of those powers or to impede them, it should be made clear that not only must there be no such impediments placed in the way by an ex-enemy State, but that they must show good will to facilitate the performance of their obligations under the Peace Treaties.
I entirely agree with that as a condition; but, subject to that, I must say that I have listened to the speeches which have been made by noble Lords this afternoon with a great deal of sympathy as regards the present condition of Hungary, and with considerable apprehension as to the future. After all, what was the object, or one of the objects, of the Peace Treaty? It was to secure, and rightly to secure, from those enemy States which had been responsible for the war and responsible during warlike operations for doing damage far in excess of that which the operations of war required, that they should to the utmost of their capacity make reparation for the damage that had been done. That was, rightly, one of the objects of

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the Peace Treaty. But that object has really been defeated by the sort of policy which has been pursued with regard to Hungary. You cannot get any Reparations from a ruined country. Ruin and Reparation are incompatible things.
I fear that Hungary is an illustration of the sort of policy which really prefers seeing an ex-enemy country kept perpetually weak to getting Reparations. I do not believe that the Little Entente, or any group of Powers, can secure permanent peace in that way in their own region of the world. I do not believe that you can secure future peace—of course, you cannot secure Reparations—by keeping any nation permanently bankrupt and miserable. But what fills me with apprehension about the future is the sort of thing of which Hungary is an illustration—the policy which is not going to secure the peace of Europe in future but, on the contrary, is going to turn Europe into a dangerously fertile seed-bed of future war.
To come to the simple illustration of Hungary, the way out is so plain. It is the help given through the League of Nations as it was given in the ease of Austria. We know that there are many people who are sceptical as to whether the League of Nations will fulfil the great hopes which its founders entertained when they brought it into existence. I think that the amount of success it achieves will very greatly correspond to the amount of hope that is generally entertained in regard to it and the amount of encouragement it receives. But this is not an instance of scepticism about future possibilities or ideals. It is simply an instance of following up a success which has already been achieved by the League of Nations in the case of Austria. You have had a similar difficulty with regard to Austria: and the League of Nations has been used with conspicuous success to solve that particular problem. Surely it is of the most elementary statesmanship to say that, having an instrument in the League of Nations which has proved itself successful in dealing with this particular point and this particular difficulty in that case, when you have the same sort of difficulty in the neighbouring country of Hungary the instrument which you have already found a success in a parallel case shall be applied.
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I know, of course, that while the Governments of the Allied Powers are so much occupied as they are with very anxious discussions about German Reparations it may be difficult to make progress with any other smaller question, but I welcome the statement which the noble Marquess has made that His Majesty's Government will use all their influence to secure that the precedent of Austria shall be applied in the case of Hungary, and I welcome especially the statement with which the noble Marquess concluded that he had some hope that other nations represented on the Reparation. Commission would also come round to that view.
LORD NEWTON: Perhaps I may be permitted to thank my noble friend not only for his full but, on the whole, extremely satisfactory statement. At the same time, I feel some slight regret that he did not avail himself of the suggestion put before him—namely, that pressure should be put upon the Little Entente people by means of refusing loans to them unless they adopt a more reasonable attitude. My impression is that they would be much more susceptible to arguments of that kind than to any appeal to their higher and better feelings. I would like to add this, that I hope such a trumpery instance as that to which my noble friend alluded this afternoon will not be allowed to stand in the way of a settlement of this question, which is really vital to the peace and prosperity of, Central Europe.

IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM VISCOUNT BURNHAM rose to ask His Majesty's Government what provision will be made for the special representation of the West Indian Colonies at the Imperial Economic Conference; and whether the question of maritime and telegraphic communication with that part of the Empire will be considered.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am free to confess that I am putting this Question about the West Indies to the noble Duke the Secretary for the Colonies because I fear—although I hope my fear may be unfounded—that His Majesty's Government may feel itself so tied and bound by the precedents and practices of former years that perhaps, for want of vision.

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they may not be able to take full advantage of the Imperial Economic Conference which is summoned to meet in London in October. I am bound to say that I regard the refusal to invite special representation of the Crown Colonies, as they are culled, or miscalled, is a profound mistake in Imperial policy. These Possessions of the British Crown contain States at every stage of political and Parliamentary development, and I think they ought to have had at an Imperial Economic Conference, which may mean so much to the future development of the British Empire, something more than an official and perfunctory representation.
As the noble Duke knows, an answer was given in another place which intimated that the whole of the Crown Colonies and Protectorates would be represented by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, Major Ormsby-Gore. It is certainly not my wish to put the slightest slur on his representation, because we recognise him as one of the more promising of our younger statesmen. But if he had the omniscience of the first Lord Brougham, or of some others who have followed him on the Woolsack, it would be utterly impossible for Major Ormsby-Gore to do justice to the different, and often competitive, claims of this great series of enormous territories, with all their resources, developed, half-developed, and undeveloped. We have the curious paradox that the Colony of Newfoundland, merely because of the accidental circumstance which raised it to the rank of a Dominion, has separate and responsible representation, whereas there is no special representation to be given to the West Indies, to East Africa, to West Africa, to Malaya, or to the Colonies of the Far East.
It is not quite certain that it will be possible to raise questions that affect the welfare of these parts of the British Empire—and, after all, they counted for a great deal in the past—except at the request of one of the self-governing Dominions. The Dominion of Canada has done a very great deal for the West Indies under the trade agreement. It has given a preference of 50 per cent. on the general goods which are brought from there, besides a special preference on sugar. At the same time, I do not think opinion in the West
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Indies is at all united as to the value of the Canadian connection at this moment, and I do know that many amendments and improvements are suggested which, so far as I have read, will not even come before the Economic Conference, except at the instance of the Canadian Dominion. I do not think I need make any apology to your Lordships' House if I bring before you the case of the West Indies, which are among the most famous and luxuriant of British Colonies, though I do not suppose that they have ever been mentioned, or, at any rate, rarely, in this House for the last quarter of a century. It has been said that the Caribbean Sea was the nursery of the British Navy, but I am not putting my plea on sentimental grounds; I am putting it on the urgent and public importance of the case of the West Indies. There is no doubt that for many years the West Indies have been undergoing a process of Americanisation. I do not throw the smallest doubt on the loyalty or fidelity of the West Indian Colonies, for I have heard cases of coloured people who come back from the United States once a year only to look at the Union Jack in their home Colony. As a matter of fact, if it had not been for the United States, the West Indies would have been plunged almost into bankruptcy without anything being done by us to rescue them, or to provide for their necessities.
Those Colonies are, to a large degree, in their commercial relations, under the predominance of American influence. I do not say that that should have been avoided. It is probably better that they should have had American enterprise, and should have been fostered and exploited by American capital, than that they should have been allowed to be fallow, as we should have allowed them, for all these years. It has, however, led to political developments of a serious kind, for there is at this moment in the United States a, powerful movement, backed by an important part of the American Press, for annexation of these Islands, or, let us say, for their acquirement by purchase or by barter from this country. It is quite evident that as free communities they could not, be dealt with in this way. On the other hand, this movement is closely allied with the great Prohibition movement which says that the facilities given by the West Indies

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militates against the liquor policy which is now the Statutory law of the United States. Moreover, it has been alleged that the construction of the Panama Canal has altered the whole relation of the various States interested in that part of the world, and that it is a necessity of American policy that the West Indian Colonies should pass under the Stare and Stripes.
I do not think we have had reason to be proud of the record of this country during the last half century in regard to the West Indies. There are blank pages in British history which I think most of us would have liked to have seen filled with the account of how, through all these years, this country had done its best to develop West Indian resources, and to take advantage of West Indian fruitful-ness. But there are no steps backward, and we cannot repair the neglect of the last half century at this stage. What we can do, however, is to face the facts as they are now.
I did not intend, in putting the Question, to make a statement on West Indian claims and grievances, but I desired to draw your Lordships' attention to two vital questions that affect the West Indies and our relations with them. Those matters I have embodied in the Notice on the Paper. Our communications with the West Indies, on the sea and under the sea and in the air, are pitiful and deplorable at the present moment. There is no independent service for goods or passengers plying between this country and the West Indies, except, of course, in the tramp ships of the merchant service which are available from time to time. His Majesty's Government has not even taken the trouble, so far, to carry out in any particular the recommendations of the Departmental Committee which examined the question of communications and reported in 1919, and of which my noble friend Lord Kylsant, Chairman of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Co., was a member.
The Transatlantic and inter-Colonial services, which had been going on for many years, cost £88,000 a year, of which the mother country paid about £52,000. The communication between Southampton and Trinidad was terminated in 1916, and has not been renewed. From 1901 to 1911 Jamaica had a fortnightly mail and
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passenger service, called the Imperial Direct West Indian Mail Service, which cost £40,000 a year under a subsidy equally divided between that island and the mother country. It is true that boats ply at this moment under the British flag, but they are really under American ownership and they do not give to the people of Jamaica what they require, which is a service to carry freight as well as passengers and bananas—and may I say that the bananas belong to the great combine which owns the service, the United Fruit Company, which is not open to independent competition? It is not showing much interest or concern in the, oldest and not the least glorious of British Possessions that we should not have a service of any sort, subsidised, of course, as it must be, because it cannot run otherwise, between us and that part of the British Empire.
The Report of the Committee had appendices which showed that the Royal Mail Steamship Company had lost £1,100,000 on that service during the currency of the contract, and I am violating no secret when I say that the late Sir Alfred Jones, who was a great pioneer in these matters and a great patriot in his policies, himself lost £250,000 in trying to promote facilities of intercourse between Great Britain and the West Indian Colonies. I want to know whether a subject of this sort is going to be examined thoroughly and afresh by the Economic Conference; and, if so, whether there ought not to be present those who are entitled to speak for the principal Colonies in the West Indies, not merely a Government official, capable no doubt of stating the case most admirably, but still not having the authority of a representative, in the same way as will be the case of those who speak for the self-governing Dominions.
Bad as it has been in regard to shipping, it has been equally bad in regard to telegraphic and news services. The whole of the news service, roughly speaking, which appears in the West Indian newspapers is furnished by America, and is, necessarily, of an American colour. I do not say that to discredit the news, because in many respects it is full and accurate. But everything has, and must have, something of the nature of propaganda about it, and the very fact that our fellow citizens there are reading nothing

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but news that is handled and shaped by American hands makes the process I have described as Americanisation far easier and far speedier. It is true that at this moment a good deal is to be done to improve the telegraphic connection and that sanction has been given for cables from Turks Island to Barbados, Trinidad and British Guiana. I believe that what is contemplated will be of great value for strategic and commercial purposes, but the Bahamas, for example, will be left without any cable communication at all with the outside world and will derive all their news and all the ordinary intelligence of daily life from the United States.
What I fear is that this will not be much remedied if the rules suggested by the answer given a few weeks ago in the House of Commons are to apply. It was stated there that the question of Imperial wireless communication generally is coming before the Imperial Conference, but in regard to the West Indies only, as I understand, if it comes into the general question apropos of Canada and any of the other Dominions whose interests are concerned. There is no part of the British Empire in which you would imagine wireless telegraphy was more needed or would work to better effect. The official answer all along has been that the atmospherics are such as practically to prevent it acting effectively, and although, as I learned also from a statement in another place, there is no intention of doing away with any of the wireless stations now existing there does not seem to be any intention of increasing them except in one instance. I understand on good authority that Signor Marconi ridicules the story of atmospheric disturbance as mere official bunkum, and that it would be perfectly feasible, with his new appliances and inventions, to work wireless on the widest and most beneficial scale to the West Indian Colonies.
I have ventured to draw your Lordships' attention to these points because they are of supreme importance if this country wishes to retain the West Indian Colonies, and I refuse to believe that there is any thought of getting rid of them in return for any advantages that the United States can offer. That is impossible. On the other hand, I hope that in the Imperial Conference, which is summoned for economic purposes and which may
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shape the economic policy of this Empire for years to come and mean a great deal in the laying of the lines of our Imperial development, that the interests of the West Indian Colonies, and the other Crown Colonies, will be specially and directly represented by those who are qualified and authorised to speak on behalf of these far flung communities.
It is sorry reading in British history as we turn its pages from the times of the Protector to the present day, to read in the Despatches of the captains and Governors of the West Indian Colonies the repeated refrain: "Pray do not forget us." I am asking your Lordships to express your opinion, not of course by Division but in debate, to the effect that on this occasion, when so much is at stake and when the opportunities are so easy and could be so magnificently employed, the whole of those Possessions of the Crown—which I think are termed in most misleading language Crown Colonies—should have that representation at the coming Conference to which their importance, their interests and their loyalty so fully entitle them.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: My Lords, I am anxious to support the view expressed by my noble friend opposite, and I base my support not only upon the particular ease which the noble Viscount has advanced in relation to the West Indian Colonies but upon the experience which I gained when, as Secretary of State for the Colonies, it was my duty to arrange for and preside over two Imperial Conferences. I desire to reinforce with all the strength I can command the view expressed by the noble Viscount. He made a reference, to one of the greatest of our Lord Chancellors. I hope that it will not be thought that I am guilty of any disrespect to Lord Chancellors if I say that if you were successful in bringing down from Heaven the Archangel Gabriel himself and charged him with the care of all the Crown Colony cases he could not possibly discharge the duty. It is an impossible task for any one individual to perform. I do not care how able Major Ormsby-Gore may be—I agree with everything that my noble friend has said with reference to him, and I hope and believe that he has a most brilliant future before him—we have tried this method and it has failed.

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So far as I know—it was certainly so in my time—it has been the practice to charge the Under-Secretary of State for the time being with the special care of Grown Colony work, and at the Imperial Conference he was expected to pay special attention to the interests of those Colonies. During my time we had two Under-Secretaries at the Colonial Office between whom the duties connected with our different Crown Colonies were divided on a geographical basis, and I was fortunately able to secure more direct representation than this, not at the Conference itself, but at the Committees which were appointed to consider these very economic questions which I hope are not only going to receive consideration at the approaching Conference, but are destined to receive a solution. I hope we are going to have results which, if the Conference proceeds upon the lines which I trust it will follow, will mean great development for the British Empire. But although we had the advantage of the services of two very capable Under-Secretaries and of extremely capable and experienced permanent officials, with a long knowledge of the Crown Colonies, in which some of them had actually served, we were faced with the practical difficulty, to which my noble friend has referred, that no individual was made personally responsible in regard to the questions which pressed most hardly upon these great parts of His Majesty's Dominions.
How can this difficulty be remedied? I venture with the very greatest respect to make a suggestion to the noble Duke, the Secretary of State. I believe there is only one way in which you can satisfactorily deal with the claims of the Crown Colonies, and that is by dividing them into groups. I do not mean that they should necessarily be geographical groups. It is obvious that the different-African Colonies must be in one group if it be possible—I doubt if it is—but the other Colonies will not necessarily lend themselves to division into groups, but rather to a division based on similar interests and opportunities for development. I was able to secure the attendance on the Committees, though not at the Conference, of ex-Governors who happened to be in this country. This was during the war when we had some ex-Governors and Governors with us who were unable, owing to the difficulties
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of the time, to return to their seats of Government and we took full advantage on these Committees of their knowledge and experience. I am glad to know that, partly as a result of the information which they gave, there is now in the possession of the Government and of others an immense amount of information, fully tabulated, scheduled and prepared, which will form a full and satisfactory basis for the future developments which I hope are shortly to follow.
If it be possible for the Secretary of State to secure this representation, if not upon the lines which I have indicated then on some other basis, he will get rid of what is regarded, as my noble friend opposite has said, as a very serious injustice in the present method of conducting the Colonies. As your Lordships know, it is open to the various members of the Conference, members of His Majesty's Government and representatives of the Dominions, to give notice of any question they like to raise for discussion, and then it is the practice of the Conference to have the list of these questions before it, so that the Conference itself may decide what are to be the subjects for discussion and what shall be the order in which they are taken. It surely follows, therefore, that if at this Conference the only representative of the Crown Colonies is a member of His Majesty's Government, an Under-Secretary or a permanent official, you are placing the Crown Colonies at a very serious disadvantage.
I am no pessimist. I believe I am an optimist. I am a supreme believer in this Empire and in all its different parts, and I am the last person to suggest that any part of the Empire, however distant it may be or however unfairly it may have been treated in the past, should try to revenge itself upon the Mother Country by threatening separation or anything of that kind. But my noble friend Lord Burnham said, at the beginning of his speech, that this is not merely a question of sentiment or of drawing closer and closer the bonds of Imperialism, but also a practical question. Lord Burnham told your Lordships something of the Americanisation of the West Indies. The story is far too long to be narrated in the course of an ordinary speech in your Lordships' House, but there is real danger in a policy of that kind being allowed to

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develop without any competition. You cannot everlastingly offer temptation of the most solid character to a people who are struggling to live without being prepared for what some may call weakness on their part.
But is it weakness? Is it not, after all, merely human nature? Men and women see before them opportunities for a prosperity which they have never before enjoyed. They find that when they come to the British Government—and I am not speaking of this Government but of every Government in succession,, going back as far as you like—the answer is: "We cannot do this for you." These Crown Colonies, and especially the West Indies, have a special claim upon the Government and people of this country. During the war they suffered bitterly because they could not get rid of their produce, although it was produce grown in British Dominions and was wanted by the British people for their consumption at home. These people had to undergo grievous privations because they could not trade as they had been accustomed to trade.
I support both the suggestions of my noble friend opposite, but I desire to give particularly strong endorsement to one of them. The noble Viscount referred to the question of transport, and he told the House something which, I do not doubt, is known to many of your Lordships—that the connections between this country and the West Indies are, I will not say deplorable, but practically non-existent. I believe that this is one of the directions in which you may be able to do something solid, something real, in order to help your Crown Colonies and your more distant possessions. I know that I must not venture to refer again now to that question of preferential treatment, in which I so firmly believe. I will only say this of it, that I am satisfied that in that policy, and that alone, is to be found the real remedy for the want of entire unison between the different parts of the British Empire. If, however, the objections to that are insuperable, then it cannot be said that to a policy of subsidising transport there is anything approaching the same objection; so far as I know, there is no objection at all. Have we not been accustomed for ages past to subsidise vessels carrying our mails? If that is so, why not adopt a policy which will bring the further
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parts of this Empire in closer communion with the centre in London, and offer to them opportunities for the development of their trade?
I do not say that this is a reproach to this country. I do not say that it has not been due to difficulties which could not at the time have been overcome, but I do say that you will find that the great Republic of America is far more ready to offer opportunities to places like the West Indies than we have ever been. And if you go from the West Indies to our African Colonies you will there find what was the history of Germany's development of her Colonies. You will find that Germany succeeded in doing a great deal more for the development of the territories which she possessed than we had ever been able to do. I hope that the first serious step will be taken in dealing with this question of the position of our non-self-governing Colonies at this coming Economic Conference. It is a tremendous opportunity. I am not a pessimist, but I believe that you can wait too long. I believe you can go on trusting to the good will and generosity of all these peoples, until you wake up to find that it is too late to take any fresh steps.
I know—and what I am saying is based upon the most recent information—that in our Dominions and Crown Colonies public opinion has undergone an immense change since the war. Within the last few days I have seen the strongest expression of opinion from one of our greatest Dominions—from a man of high responsibility in that Dominion. Whether they be Crown Colonies or Dominions I say they are asking: "How long are we to wait before you will give us something solid, to enable us to tell other applicants for our favours that we are content with the development going on within the British Empire?" These are questions which have to be answered. I believe the answers can be found, but the questions can only be answered on the lines that have been suggested. It is in the hope that His Majesty's Government will give a reality to these discussions which they have never enjoyed before that I support the Question of my noble friend.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I think the speech delivered by my noble friend who brought this Question to the attention of your Lordships contained

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a suggestion that we on our side were lukewarm, or at any rate not interested, in the development of the West Indian Colonies. I hope to show that that statement is wholly unjustified.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: I made no such suggestion. I was talking of the policy of this country for fifty years. I made no suggestion applicable to this Government or to any Government specially. All I asked was that an active interest should be shown.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I thought the suggestion was that we were not showing that active interest. I hope to dispel any such idea. We certainly are anxious and interested, and when our wishes are investigated and known I think we can claim that we are endeavouring to do everything which lies in our power to bring forward and assist the development not merely of the West Indian Colonies but of our Colonies throughout the Empire. Many of your Lordships are aware that with the close proximity of the United States, and possibly the many attractions which the West Indian Colonies may possess for the inhabitants of the United States, especially at this immediate moment, no doubt considerable American influence is being exercised in those Colonies; but I am confident that the loyalty and the close association which has existed for so long between the West Indies and ourselves is not going to be broken by any commercial or industrial influence of that character.
As was stated, I think, in another place, the representation of the West Indies at the Economic Conference will be in the hands of the Under-Secretary of State. Mr. Ormsby-Gore will, at the Economic Conference, represent the Crown Colonies and Protectorates. In the case of the West Indies he has the additional advantage of having, during the time of his predecessor, made a long and interesting journey through those Colonies, and he is therefore able to speak with first-hand knowledge and information on those points. With my hon. friend there will be associated representatives of the Colonial Office, namely, Sir Gilbert Grindle, who has taken an active part in these Conferences, and Sir James Stephenson, who has rendered conspicuous services in
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connection with our Colonies. It is obvious that in addition to the actual representation at the Conference itself, the Colonial Office, working through the Under-Secretary, will be in close touch with official and unofficial representation.
During the past few months my hon. friend and I have had the opportunity of meeting many of the Governors of Colonies, and many of the high officials also. We have had the advantage, knowing that the Conference was to assemble in the autumn, of being able to gather their views and to take note of their representations, with a view to bringing them before the Conference. With regard to the two special points raised by the Question, it is, I think, obvious that maritime communication and wireless communication are bound to receive, and will receive, the fullest attention of the Conference. One of the objects for which we are having the Conference is to consider these communications. But I am a little doubtful whether this question of maritime communications with the West Indies could be suitably discussed at such a Conference. We are in close communication now with the Governments of the various Colonies concerned, and I think, at any rate in the first instance, it is far better that we should continue to conduct those communications, rather than make them the subject of a special reference to the Conference.
With regard to the improvement of telegraphic communication, I trust it will not be necessary to wait for the meeting of the Economic Conference. Proposals have now been placed before the overseas Governments, and I trust that before the Conference itself assembles we shall be able to point to considerable progress. Undoubtedly, if further representations are needed, we can confidently assert that they will be brought before the Conference, and I am quite sure they will receive effective and full consideration.

PEERS WAR MEMORIAL.
LORD CAWLEY: My Lords, I desire to ask the. Leader of the House if he can give the House any information as to the state of progress of the project for the erection of a memorial within the precincts of the House of Lords to the Peers and the sons of Peers who fell in the great war.
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, no one has a better right, for reasons which are well known, to ask the Question which the noble Lord has just put, than the noble Lord himself, and I welcome the opportunity of giving to the House information upon the subject which he has raised. The House will recollect that in the year 1919, after the war, there was a general feeling among your Lordships that, irrespective of a monument which was being erected at the end of Westminster Hall, the sacrifices which had been borne by your Lordships and your families were so great, and the loss of life which had been incurred was so heavy, that your Lordships would like to have some special ships would like to have within the precincts of this House some special memorial of so much sacrifice and so much glory.
Accordingly, I set myself to ascertain the views of noble Lords on the subject, a Committee was formed, and subscriptions were invited. At that time it was thought that the most suitable place for a memorial would be the recessed window or embrasure at the far end, on the left, of the Royal Gallery, and the suggestion found favour that a monument should be erected on that site, with tablets at the side, upon which should be inscribed the names of those Peers, or Peers' sons, or Peers' brothers, who had given their lives in the war. The rest of that year, 1919, was spent in the collection of subscriptions, and so large a sum of money was forthcoming that the total, with the interest that has since accrued, amounts at the present moment to well over £8,000.
When it was realised that this great sum was forthcoming it was felt that the memorial would be worthy of an even finer setting than that which I have mentioned, and which was at first proposed, and that we should endeavour to find for it, if we could, some more central and more imposing site. Accordingly, the suggestion was then made that it might be possible to shift to some other place the great marble monument which stands in the Princes, Chamber behind the Throne, and which, whatever views may be entertained about it, can hardly be described as admirable, whether as a likeness or a work of art, and to utilise the position thus vacated for the Peers War Memorial. Naturally, the first person to be consulted about the matter was
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His Majesty the King, and he readily gave his assent to the removal of that monument, and to its erection upon another and suitable site at the head of the great staircase in the Victoria Tower, up which His Majesty mounts every year when he comes with the Queen to the opening of Parliament.
When His Majesty's consent was given an announcement was made to noble Lords of the suggestion, and it was received with a unanimous approval, that expressed itself in the inflow of a much larger number of subscriptions; and, indeed, I recall on that occasion receiving a letter from the late Lord Harcourt, who was pre-eminently a man of taste, as well as of sentiment, in which he said that he thought that we had now secured the one and only dignified place for such a memorial. And I think you will realise, that, supposing a fine work of the sculptor's art could be procured, a more suitable and a more noble position could hardly be found than one in the Chamber where we assemble every day, where we conduct our correspondence, where we take part in our friendly conversations, and where in the future, should this idea be realised, there will be perpetually present before us a memorial of an incident, or a series of incidents that will remain imperishably fixed in the memory of every one of us, and, indeed, in the traditions for all time of your Lordships' House.
The next step was to proceed with the selection of a sculptor and the preparation of designs. The Committee met and authorised me to put myself in communication with the famous sculptor, Sir Thomas Brock, at that time the head of the profession, and a man whose skill and judgment inspired the warmest confidence in all his fellow artists. I saw Sir Thomas Brock, and he kindly consented to act as adviser or assessor to the Committee, who mistrusted their own artistic judgment in the matter. Upon his suggestion we invited four sculptors of eminence to compete for the selection and to send in sketch models of their designs. Ample time was given to them to perform this duty, and at length, after many months, the designs were sent in Almost immediately after they had reached us, I asked Sir Thomas Brock to come and look at them and give me his expert opinion. They were also seen by the

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Committee, and I regret to say that we were all of the opinion—and no one more strongly than Sir Thomas Brock himself—that not one of them was adequate, or fully expressed the object that we had in view. Sir Thomas Brock himself was greatly disappointed, and was somewhat at a loss to know what to say or to advise, but eventually he suggested that it might be considered desirable to invite one or more of the sculptors who had submitted those designs to reconsider their models and to submit something else. I left him to think over that suggestion of his own and to give us more definite advice. A little time after that he sickened and a few months later he died.
That, of course, was a great and very sorrowful interruption to our labours and for the moment nothing could be done. But when we all came back this year we had another meeting of the Committee, who once again inspected the models to which I refer to see whether, in their opinion, it was desirable to invite a review by the artists in question. We came to the unanimous conclusion that it was not and that we could not hope to obtain from these designs, even if revised or altered, the kind of memorial which we should have felt any confidence in recommending to your Lordships. Accordingly, we felt that we must enter upon new ground and I was authorised by the Committee, avoiding the risks of another competition, to approach a very eminent sculptor, much of whose work is known in London but whoso name I had better not mention, perhaps, because his design has not been accepted and it would not be fair to him, and to ask him whether he could see his way to submit to us a new and independent design.
I took a great deal of trouble about the matter with him both then and since. He accepted the undertaking which, of course, involved no pledge on the part of the Committee or anybody in your Lordships' House—it was a purely tentative step, and only a little while ago I went to his studio and saw what I suppose I may call his trial sketch for the monument. It impressed me very favourably indeed, and he then asked leave, in the month or two that must elapse before we reassemble in the autumn, to put his ideas into the form of a more finished and substantial model
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which will be shown to the Committee when we reassemble in the course of the autumn.
I hope that the narrative which I have given will have shown your Lordships that, though the time is long and though the delays have been regrettable, but in the main inevitable for the reasons I have named, we are yet progressing towards the end that we all have in view. I personally will continue to devote to the matter the attention which I have hitherto done, which, I may say in passing, has consumed an enormous amount of my time, and I am hopeful that we may end by obtaining a memorial which will be worthy of the great events which it commemorates, of the spirit and sentiment which it symbolises, and of the unique and splendid site which the favour of His Majesty has placed at our disposal.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Are we to understand from the noble Marquess that the designs are to be prepared for the site in the Princes Chamber?
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, I ought perhaps to say before the noble Earl speaks, that when the sculptor to whom I refer and who, I think, is known to the noble Earl, came here, he was shown both sites—the site in the Princes Chamber to which I have referred and the site that had originally been suggested in the recessed window at the end of the Royal Gallery—and that he was given full liberty to make recommendations to us for either site and for any form of monument that might suggest itself to his skill and taste. It-was only after he had had the matter under consideration for a space of two or more months that I heard from him that, after giving that consideration, he had unhesitatingly decided in favour of the larger site in the Princes Chamber immediately behind the Throne.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords. I confess that I shed a tear at hearing of the necessity of removing what is a great historic monument recording the historic episode when the famous Queen Victoria opened these House of Parliament. I know that it is not considered a beautiful monument. The noble Marquess, Lord Curzon, indicated that I dare say that view is shared by most of your Lordships, perhaps by myself also. But it is a

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genuine authentic monument of the period, made by perhaps, with one exception, the greatest scuptor of the period and recording, as I say, one of the greatest Parliamentary episodes of the period and certainly the greatest Sovereign who has ever reigned over these Islands Here, behind the Throne, whence the Sovereign opens our proceedings at the beginning of the Session by a gracious Speech from the Throne, is the permanent record of the Queen who, in person, first read the Royal Speech within her great Palace of Westminster.
It is not customary for us to admire Victorian art; but I fancy that Victorian art possesses virtues which are not at all too common in the art of to-day. But whether it is a beautiful statue or an ugly statue is, from my point of view, immaterial. Had each generation scrapped from Westminster Abbey the monuments, the furniture, the glass and the fittings which in their day were considered ugly or obsolete or in eighteenth century parlance "Gothic," Westminster Abbey to-day would be the poorest church in Christendom instead of being the richest church in Christendom for a continuous sequence of monuments of our historic past. My instincts, therefore, impel me in a most respectful manner to record an expression of regret that this necessity should have arisen, especially because the process of removal is not going to be easy, and, in my opinion, the group will look far from well when it occupies the other site. It would cost a thousand pounds at least to move it from the Princes Chamber to the staircase at the end of the Royal Gallery. The central figure must weigh ten or twelve tons. The process of separation of the great blocks is in itself dangerous. Their replacement is likewise dangerous. To fix the monument in position at the top of the Royal stair involves cutting away permanent parts of the structure, and when you have it there it will merely be a side show. I think it is a great pity.
May I remind your Lordships of what has happened only in the last few weeks in a very similar case at Manchester? The square of the Town Hall there, a central position, was occupied by a very important statue, by a very eminent sculptor of his day, of the late Prince Consort. There are four other statues in the square, including Gladstone, Bright, and Bishop Frazer, two on
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each side of that of the Prince Consort. Manchester had the problem of finding a site for its war memorial, and it settled, perfectly naturally and on perfectly logical grounds, just as the Committee has come to the same decision here, to place the plastic record in the most central and most important position they could find. His Majesty was approached, and in the case of Manchester as in that of his Palace of Westminster, immediately gave his gracious assent to the removal of the Prince Consort's monument. But gradually Manchester came to wonder if it really was wise to tear up five statues designed for the very positions they occupy to-day on this central square of Manchester, to dump them in other parts of the city where best they could be fitted in, and to replace them by something they had never seen. Bit by bit public opinion came to see that a statue which displaces another one docs not itself possess much security of tenure, and the other day it was decided by an immense majority in the Manchester City Council, supported I believe by a still greater majority of public opinion in that great centre, that the Prince Consort's statue, and the two statutes on either side of it in the central square, should remain where they are and that a new site should be found for the war memorial.
In this case we are not dealing with a town square which has grown up on purely fortuitous lines and directions which may have been settled by chance two, or three, or even four hundred years ago, but we are dealing with the Palace of Westminster which, from the architectural point of view, is by far our greatest secular and artistic achievement of the last thousand years. There is no great building m the world where everything, from the great fundamental lines to the smallest item of decoration of door furniture, and so on, has been thought out with such loving and such meticulous care, and where so gigantic and so successful a unit has been accomplished as in the case of this Palace of Westminster. There is nothing like it, I believe, in the whole world. And as that memorial in the Princes Chamber is an integral part not merely of the decoration but of the structure and of the history of this Palace, I profoundly regret that it should have been necessary to remove it. For my part I

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should greatly prefer that the Memorial to deceased Peers, officers of this House, and I fancy also relatives of Peers, should occupy a position less in the bustle and gossip of our workaday life in this House, but rather in that solemn though more remote embrasure, which in itself has the aspect of a tiny chapel or of a small shrine, at the end of the famous Waterloo Chamber.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I think your Lordships are very much to be congratulated upon the fact that we have as Leader of your Lordships' House a Minister who is not only indefatigable and ready to undertake all the work which comes his way, but also one who is well known for his love of art. I speak on this subject with some diffidence, because it is one of those matters of taste upon which everybody forms a different opinion, and forms it upon very different lines, and with very different standards. But I should like to join the noble Earl who has just spoken in asking, before it is too late, that a little further consideration should be given to the suggestion that the statue in the Princes Chamber should be removed. It is of great historic interest, and it is a curious fact that in all this vast pile of buildings there are really only two rooms which are completed as they were intended to be finished by the architect who first planned this great Palace. Those are this room and the Princes Chamber next door.
Although the details, as the noble Earl has just said, have been carried out in a great many other rooms, it is just these two rooms, and these two rooms only, that have been actually finished in accordance with the original intentions of the architect and designer. Surely, that is rather a precious heritage. Let us turn our minds back to the time of Queen Elizabeth, and think how pleased we should be if we could point to two rooms designed and decorated by the people of that day and left wholly untouched from that day to this. I think that it would be very difficult for any architect or any sculptor to devise a monument in the next room which was in harmony with the present age, and yet at the same time was in harmony with the decorations of that Chamber. And indeed that has already proved to be the case, because, as I understand from the noble Marquess, the designs
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which have already been submitted have not in his opinion been wholly satisfactory. Therefore, I also would enter a plea for leaving that great monument as it is at the present time.
Surely there are sites available other than the one in the Princes Chamber. Surely there are other sites available than these—the one in the Princes Chamber and the other in the Royal Gallery. Certainly more than one is suggested to my mind at once, and therefore I hope that the noble Marquess will perhaps refer to this distinguished architect whom he has in his mind not only the possibility of the second site in the Princes Gallery, but also the question whether there is not somewhere else within the precincts of the Palace a site in which he might put up a suitable memorial to the Peers and sons of Peers killed during the war.
But I rose also to ask the noble Marquess with regard to another memorial, whether he can give your Lordships' House any information upon the subject. It is a matter which has been mentioned to me by more than one noble Lord. It will be within the knowledge of most of your Lordships that a memorial has been placed at the end of Westminster Hall, and upon it are the names of Peers and Members of the House of Commons and officers of both Houses who were killed during the war. There are also added the names of relatives of Members of the House of Commons. That is admirable. We are all glad to think that every possible honour should be done to these people. But to my mind it is something of an omission that there is no mention of any relative of any member of your Lordships' House. Westminster Hall, St. Stephen's Hall and the Central Lobby, are all parts of the Palace of Westminster, which is held in equal possession by both Houses of Parliament, and it is a pity that there should have been so striking an omission.
One day, when looking at this memorial, some friends of mine heard a number of people who were passing comment on the absence of any mention at all of any relatives of members of your Lordships' House, and they did not understand how it was they were not placed there. May I make a suggestion to the noble Marquess? It is this: that he should communicate with those who are responsible for the memorial in Westminster

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Hall and ask whether it would not be possible to insert a line—there are several vacant spaces—saying that the memorial to the relatives and members of the House of Lords is to be found in another place. Without crowding this memorial with a number of additional names, if it could be placed on record in this place where it is seen by hundreds of people a day—my business has brought me to your Lordships' House in the mornings and I have been astonished at the number of people who come to visit your Lordships' House—that the memorial to relatives and members of the House of Lords is in another place, it would, I think, remove a possible misconception, a very unfortunate misconception, and one which, if it is allowed to remain may indeed give rise to serious misconception in the future.
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLES-TON: My Lords, I have no responsibility whatever for the monument at the end of Westminster Hall, but I was brought into contact with the arrangements that were made for its erection on more than one occasion, and I think, therefore, I am in a position to answer the Question of the noble Earl. That monument was in its inception in the main a House of Commons affair. A Committee was constituted without any reference cither to the Leader or the principal members of your Lordships' House, and subscriptions were invited by those who were responsible for the organisation from Peers as well as from commoners. Quite a limited number of noble Lords subscribed, and it was at that stage that the idea took form that your Lordships would not be content with having the names of your dead inscribed only in Westminster Hall and in a memorial which you would share with the Members of another House, but that you would want one of your own.
Then we come to the question of names for which again I had no responsibility, except in so far as I did my best to make the names that were put on the monument accurate. The difficulty was this. The noble Earl has complained that on that monument are recorded only, in so far as this House is concerned, the names of those Peers who lost their lives in the war. I believe that is true. But the number of those whose names he would have liked to have seen there, and whose
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names will be inscribed upon the memorial we hope to erect, is no fewer than two hundred. That is to say, if the additions were made to that monument 190 further names would be required. You have only to go to the monument in question, already crowded to my mind beyond the limits of taste with the names of members, to see that it would be quite impossible to add that number. We, therefore, made it quite clear from the start that the record of the sons of Peers, or the brothers of Peers who were themselves sons of Peers, would be the record that would be preserved and inscribed here and that we had no responsibility for that monument except that it recorded the names of Peers alone.
The noble Earl has made the suggestion that perhaps some notice may be inscribed or inserted to the effect that the real Peers memorial stands elsewhere. I do not know whether it rests with me to make that suggestion because I have had nothing to do with the execution of the monument, but when the noble Earl's speech appears in the newspapers it may well be that attention will be drawn to the suggestion he has made and it may be that there is something in the suggestion itself.
Without fatiguing the House and disobeying its rules, may I say one word in reply to what the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, has said? I think that his remarks would perhaps have been better placed had they been delivered two years ago. This decision, which he has commented upon almost as if it were a new one, has been perfectly familiar to your Lordships' House for more than three years. I myself circularised Peers and informed them, and so far as I know it has been a matter of common knowledge. It was certainly known to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: It has never been published
THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLES-TON: I do not know what the noble Earl means by published. We have never published anything about the memorial, but I myself wrote a circular and had it printed and sent to noble Lords, and in consequence of that circular many noble Lords wrote to me, stating that their objections to the secluded site had been removed and that they heartily appreciated

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the selection of this more dignified position; and, as I remarked in my former speech, the subscription list wont up by leaps and bounds. One word about the recess in the adjoining Chamber. I fully appreciate what the noble Earl has said and I remember remarking, in fact I think it was to the noble Earl, that that small embrasure had the advantage almost of suggesting a shrine. I even made the suggestion that perhaps gates should be put across the entrance in order to shut it off from the main gallery. The idea pleased me that the place should have something sequestered and sacred about it, removing it from the bustle and movement of our every day life.
But it was precisely that aspect of the case that met with the criticism of noble Lords. There were noble Lords who came to me and said: "That is not what we want. Our sacrifice has been public before the world. We want to be reminded of it. We do not want to go to a chapel to pray. We can go to the church where our boys are commemorated by a monument on the walls if we want to worship, if we want solitude and silence. Do let us in our every day life, when we come to the House of Lords, have some memory brought before us of this supreme incident in our lives and the nation's." It was that form of criticism, coming to me over and over again, that tempted me to move away from the suggestion that had originally found favour in my own mind and support the selection of another site.
It is difficult indeed to contemplate changes now. May I add this, that when one noble Lord—I think it was the noble Earl opposite—asked whether there are not other sites, I would reply at once that we went over every corridor and room of this House—I spent hours over it, looking at every conceivable place—and there is none. You have £8,000 contributed for this purpose. Where are you to spend it in a memorial worthy of the name and of the sum that has been collected? You cannot spend £8,000 on the recess in the Royal Gallery. Here is a site, noble, patent before the world, accepted by His Majesty the King as suitable for a memorial looking down in sorrow and in emotion upon our daily life. Why are we not to take it? We are not to take it because this is a sacred relic of the Victorian age, because it was designed at the same moment that this
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House was designed, because it is an integral part of one great conception.
I agree with all that the noble Earl said about the general beauty of the Palace of Westminster. Considering that it was built in a style of architecture wholly unsuited to the purpose for which it exists, it is a very remarkable triumph of the architectural art, and every day, although I see features in this room that I detest, I am at the same time lost in admiration of the general structural and decorative beauty of the building by which I am surrounded. But if you ask me to transfer my admiration to that statue—that is the limit. I do not pursue the matter, because de gustibus non est disputandum—every man has his own idea of taste—but I do hope that your Lordships will not too readily, in response to the great artistic authority of the noble Earl, throw over the work which has been pursued for the last two or three years and with which the bulk of your Lordships were quite familiar, but will allow us to carry on the design to which we have set our hand, and which, I am satisfied from what I have seen, will in the long run content the great majority of your Lordships.
LORD CAWLEY: My Lords, I rise only to thank the noble Marquess for his explanation of a delay which was perhaps somewhat longer than some of your Lordships liked to see, though I think we ought to be satisfied with the explanation which the noble Marquess has given us.

WILD BIRDS PROTECTION BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Protection of birds according to categories.
(2) The expression "close season" means the period elapsing between the first day of March and the thirty-first day of August, both days being included:
Provided that the close season in the case of the woodcock shall be the period elapsing between the first day of February and the thirtieth day of September, both days being included.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "August" and insert "July." The noble Duke

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said: My Lords, I put this Amendment down on the Committee stage, but I was very late in doing so and my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, who is in charge of the Bill, told me that if I would put it down again he would consider the matter in the meantime. Your Lordships are aware that this Rill is to supersede all the other Acts relating to this matter. Up to the present the close time has ended on July 31. Under this Bill it is proposed to extend the close time to August 31. It is admitted that previous Acts have not been a great success, the chief reason being that they have not been generally supported and that it has thus been impossible to carry them out with the aid of the police. It is most desirable that this Bill if it is to be a success, should really be enforced, but this is possible only if it has the confidence of the public and no one can feel that it is causing hardship, grievances or an interference with existing rights.
I am afraid that if the close time is altered from July 31 to August 31 a great sense of grievance will be felt by many hundreds or thousands of people, and the change will be looked upon as a hardship by a great many more. For instance, it will practically prohibit the shooting of any wild duck or snipe during the month of August. There are very large numbers of the people who preserve game who shoot what are commonly called flappers, that is to say young duck, in the month of August, which, if they are not shot then, fly away, so that there is no opportunity later on. In addition, there are enormous numbers of people who during their August holiday shoot on seashores and other places where game is not preserved and where they can have their shooting practically for nothing. These people cannot afford to take expensive shootings, or, indeed, any shootings at all, but are none the less very good sportsmen, and in my opinion the Bill would have the effect of interfering with their sport.
I do not think that a very strong case has been made out for extending the close period, because, as your Lordships know, anyone who has a particular interest or even a particular fad wants all other interests sacrificed to it. I am convinced that if the noble Viscount is able to accept my Amendment, this Bill, instead of being detrimental to the objects which he
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has in view, will undoubtedly further them. The Amendment will tend to make the Bill a real success, and will enlist support for its provisions and assist the enforcement of the law instead of leaving it to be simply laughed at as it has been in the past.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 3, leave out ("August") and insert ("July").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, this provision was put in the Bill because it was recommended by the Departmental Committee which made a most exhaustive and careful study of the whole question, and I am reluctant to depart from the advice given by those who have inquired into the matter. I recognise, however, that one of the two great drawbacks to the enforcement of the existing law for the protection of birds is the apathy of public opinion with regard to it. The other drawback to the existing law is its confusion and perplexity. The main object of this Bill is to remedy the objection to existing legislation, and undoubtedly we should defeat that object if we were to interfere with that which has hitherto been a legitimate form of enjoyment. It is not desired to interfere with the existing practice of shooting birds that are common, but to secure the protection of rare birds. It is very desirable that we should not raise public opinion against us by incurring any charge of that kind.
It is possible, I think, that under the noble Duke's Amendment a certain number of the rarer duck which breed comparatively late may be sacrificed, but on the other hand it is undoubtedly true, as he says, that a good deal of shooting of common wild duck and of snipe goes on in August, and is the only form of sport open to people who cannot have private shootings of their own. I propose, therefore, to accept the noble Duke's Amendment. I would point out that in some places, such as the Farne Islands, there exist breeding grounds where there are practically no birds fit for food but where shooting might take place, although it is very desirable that there should be no shooting at such breeding grounds. But such places may be preserved under the Bill by being declared sanctuaries For these reasons I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I am very much obliged.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to omit the proviso to subsection (2). The noble Duke said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to the woodcock. At the present time, for some reason or other, the woodcock is specially selected over all the birds in Schedule I for special preservation. One great advantage of this Bill is, I think, that the number of birds in the various Schedules has been considerably reduced, as compared with former Bills, or rather as compared with the lists which the county councils have prepared and which have been approved by the Home Office in England and by the Secretary for Scotland. The result of having those long lists of birds is that the general public have regarded them with indifference. The numbers have been considerably curtailed in this Bill and it seems to me that unless a very strong case can be made out it is a great mistake to give one bird particular protection.
Another reason against this is that, certainly in my part of the world, and I believe more or less throughout Scotland and largo portions of England, woodcock breeding is increasing, and has been increasing continuously for many years. I know it may be said that in certain counties the shooting of woodcock has been prohibited before October 1. I know of three counties with which I had particularly to deal. In the case of two of those counties it was found to be absurd, and was dropped, and in the third, although the prohibition has been continued, as a matter of fact every one shot the bird regularly. I admit that there is not much enjoyment in shooting the woodcock before August or September, but if you want to preserve woodcock—and no case is made out for its special preservation, because it is increasing and in no danger of extinction—it seems to me that this proviso is a bad one. There is, however, one exception as regards the proviso. And that is the prohibition of the shooting of woodcock as from the first day of February. I think that date should be retained as the beginning of the close season. The noble Viscount was so good in accepting my last Amendment that I hope he may be able to accept this one as well.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 4, leave out lines 4 to 7.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, the concluding words of the noble Duke in moving his Amendment are a very good illustration of the old saying that "Gratitude is an expectation of favours to come." But I should rather put it the other way, and urge that, as his first Amendment has been accepted in its entirety, the opportunity is now rather with him to be conciliatory in the Amendment he has now moved. The object of the proviso is to encourage woodcock as a British breeding species. It is true that in many parts of the country it does breed, and is doing so with increasing frequency, and that it does show a tendency to extend its breeding range south. That is, I think, a tendency to encourage, and it will not be encouraged if there is a great deal of shooting of woodcock when the foreign birds are not in this country at all and the only birds destroyed will be British breeding birds. The British breeding birds have much more chance of surviving if shooting does not begin until the foreign birds have arrived.
The noble Duke suggested that it might be well to keep February 1 as the date on which the close season should begin. I should like to meet him as far as I can. I am a little impressed by his argument that the breeding of woodcock as a British breeding species does depend upon the interest of owners, and that they will not be so ready to preserve them on their estates if shooting is not allowed until October 1. I think there is some force in the argument, and therefore I propose to the noble Duke that for the words "the thirtieth day of September" he should move to substitute the words" the thirty-first day of August."
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I am quite willing to accept the suggested Amendment, and I will move it accordingly.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 6, leave out ("the thirtieth day of September" and insert ("the thirty-first day of August").—(The Duke, of Buccleuch.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Special provisions with respect to the lapwing.
(3) On and after the first day of May in any year, a person shall not sell for human consumption or have in his possession for the purpose of sale for human consumption any eggs of the lapwing, and if any person acts in contravention of this provision, he shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved in subsection (3) to leave out "first day of May" and insert "twentieth day of April" The noble Duke said: My Lords, this Amendment has reference to the lapwing. This Bill very wisely places the date after which the eggs of the lapwing shall not be taken as late as April 15, and the noble Viscount informed your Lordships that this had been fixed cm because it was not very desirable in many places to encourage the sitting on early eggs by reason of the fact that agriculture might be in operation and if a roller or harrow should happen to go over the nests there would not be much left of them. It may be disputed whether the fifteenth of April is the best date, but I am aware that it is generally accepted as a most suitable date. If the collecting of eggs after April 15 is prohibited, to which, I understand, there is no objection, the danger appears to me to be that those who wish to obey the law will not collect them after April 15, but a very large number of others will, and the only safeguard to prevent people from taking an undue number of plovers' eggs is to prohibit the sale.
I will give your Lordships an instance. On my own property the collection of plovers' eggs is prohibited in one county. I and other proprietors and other occupiers have not collected them, but other people have, and every single egg has been swept off the place, even up to a much later date than is indicated in the Bill. That was because the sale of eggs was allowed. My Amendment would give five days in which to sell the eggs that have been collected, and I think that would be sufficient. I feel certain that if plovers' eggs are allowed to be sold until May I the eggs will be collected up to April 28 or 29.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 8, leave out ("first day of May") and insert ("twentieth day of April").—(The Bake of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, this is an Amendment designed to strengthen the Bill, and undoubtedly the noble Duke is quite right in saying that the protection of the lapwing really depends upon prohibiting the sale of its eggs. In that category it stands alone among birds. Unless the sale is prohibited undoubtedly the taking of eggs will go on, whatever the law may be. The lapwing is a bird considered so useful that some counties—my own county Northumberland is, I think, one of them—protect now, under the existing law, the bird and its eggs during the whole year. The bird is considered to be entirely beneficial—not only innocent in doing no harm, but active in doing good, from the farmer's point of view. The number of lapwings in this country has, as far as my information goes, diminished enormously, and that is very largely because we do not get the enormous flocks of migratory birds in the autumn that used to come. I think the reason for that is the tremendous demand for their eggs both here and in other countries. Therefore, the prohibition of the sale of eggs may be helpful in preserving the birds, and in increasing the numbers that we may expect to have in the autumn.
The only hesitation I had in accepting the Amendment was that if we made the provision about the sale too stringent we might raise a good deal of opposition to the Bill, and jeopardise its chances of passing. But, having accepted the noble Duke's opinion on the first Amendment as to the probability of rousing opposition, I am prepared to accept his opinion on this that there is no real danger of wrecking the Bill. Therefore, being most desirous to see the Bill as effective as possible, I will gladly accept his Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7:
Offences of cruelty.
7.—(1) A person shall not—

(a) affix, place or set on any pole, tree, or cairn of stones or earth, any spring, trap, gin or other similar instrument calculated to cause bodily injury to any bird coming in contact therewith; or

(b) knowingly permit or suffer or cause any such instrument to be so affixed, placed, or set; or

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(c) take or attempt to take any bird by means of a hook or other similar instrument; or

(d) use as a decoy any braced or tethered bird, or maimed or blinded bird; or

(e) use bird lime for the purpose of taking birds.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (1) (a), to leave out "or earth." The noble Duke said: My Lords, I do not wish to press this Amendment, but I would point out that under these words it might perhaps be illegal to set a rabbit trap or snare for rabbits. Perhaps the noble Viscount has not considered this point.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 25, leave out ("or earth").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: As a matter of fact, these words were not drafted for the purposes of this Bill. They are taken from an Act passed in 1904, prohibiting the setting of traps of this kind. They are taken textually from that Act, so that they really come to us with the settled wisdom of Parliament behind them. But I am not disposed to think that the wisdom of Parliament is always infallible, and, having examined the words closely, I do think there is some force in the noble Duke's criticism, and I suggest that the noble Duke's point, which I think is a real one, might be met by inserting "mound of" before earth, so that instead of "earth" it may be "mound of earth."
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: What is a mound of earth? A mound of earth may be anything. It may be as small as a mole heap, or as big as Fujiyama.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: Of course, if the noble Earl objects I do not press it.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I think it had better be reconsidered later. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection 1 (d), to leave out "braced or tethered bird, or." The noble Duke said: Is that from an old Act?
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: No.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: This is a very common method of catching carrion crows, and I should very much doubt whether there is any more cruelty in tethering carrion crows than the cruelty which would be caused by the carrion crow if it were not destroyed. There may be very good reasons for having these words in, but I rather doubt whether they are quite wise.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 34, leave out ("braced or tethered bird, or").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUXT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, it is not, I think, specially for the carrion crow that these words are used. Bird catchers use braced or tethered birds very much as decoys for catching the small birds which are perfectly harmless, and I am told, though I have not got the instances here, that police court reports show that a certain amount of cruelty and injury to the birds has taken place from the practice of bracing or tethering them. The word "tethered" was added here on the recommendation of the Scottish advisory committee or the Scottish Office, and, as there has been a certain amount of cruelty, and as there are other ways of destroying carrion crows and noxious birds, besides bracing or tethering them, and further, as the bracing or tethering is mainly used for birds of a much more innocent description, I would ask the noble Duke not to press his Amendment.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Second Schedule (Birds in Category II (specially protected during the close season)):
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out "Duck (all species)." The noble Duke said: So far as I can make out from the Bill, nobody will be allowed to take ducks, or sell or eat their eggs. Of course, that is not intended. I notice that later on the words are used "Wild goose (all species)." If we said "Wild duck (all species)" it would meet the point.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 22, leave out ("Duck (all species)").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: The word "wild," I think, clearly ought to be inserted before "duck," but, as the title is "Wild Birds Protection Bill," I am not sure that it would have the effect which the noble Duke fears on domestic ducks. As we say "wild goose" we ought to say "wild duck." I therefore suggest that we insert the word "wild" before "duck," and then the words can stand "Wild duck (all species)."
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I am not quite clear about this. As the Bill stands the expression "bird" means any wild bird, but does not include any game bird. The expression "wild bird" is not to be found in the Bill at all except in the title, in the Definition Clause, and in the recommendation for setting up these advisory committees. I do not see where the definition of wildness comes in. If yon put "wild duck" into the Schedule here it would give a safeguard in regard to the farmyard duck, and unless something of the kind is done I think I am correct in saying that the Bill would bar the slaughter of any duck in any farmyard. But I am more concerned about the eggs. The Second Schedule comprises birds which are protected not only themselves but as to their nests and eggs during the close season. That is Category 2 and it applies to everybody; there is no limitation in favour of the owner or occupier. If this Bill passes into law as it stands now it will be illegal to exchange a clutch of wild ducks' eggs. I look upon that process as the most profitable and fruitful way of extending and increasing wild duck in this country. I know districts in this country in which there was not a wild duck ten years ago where there are now plenty, as the result of the judicious exchange of clutches of eggs. That is barred by the Second Schedule, so far as I can see, and I think it is another example of this Bill going too far simply through people being too zealous in maintaining high ideals.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: As a matter of fact, under the existing law, I believe, an owner or occupier may not shoot wild geese or wild ducks in the close season any more than he may shoot partridges or pheasants, so that they are fully protected.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I am not talking so much about the birds as the eggs.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: The birds are protected. Therefore if wild duck and wild geese were struck out of Category 2, they would be liable to be shot all the year round by owners and occupiers promiscuously, and they would be in a worse position than they are at present.
A NOBLE LORD: This Bill repeals the other Acts?
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: Yes; therefore, I think it is absolutely necessary to retain the birds in Category 2. In regard to exchanges of eggs, that is a very desirable thing to be done. It is done under the Game Laws as regards pheasants and partridges now, though I do not know under what provision of the Game Laws it is done. I should think that it might be done under this Bill by getting a licence from the Scottish Office or the Home Office, and that there would be no difficulty in obtaining a licence for the purpose. I think it is essential to leave wild ducks and wild geese in Category 2 in order that they may have proper protection. If the point as to the exchange of eggs is not met by the powers of licence in the Bill, there will be an opportunity of considering that point and of having it dealt with in another place. I quite admit it is very desirable that such exchanges should take place.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I am much obliged, and if the noble Viscount will look into the matter before the Bill is dealt with elsewhere I shall be satisfied. As Clause 6 stands the object of the licence is the protection of property, crops and fisheries. It is all very fine to say that I have to go to Whitehall and put down a fifty pound note and get a guarantor and I do not know what. Then it may be three months before they answer my letter, and by that time it will not be very much good changing clutches of eggs.
THE LORD SPEAKER: Does the noble Duke press his Amendment?
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: No; I withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON moved to insert "Wild" before "Duck (all species)." The noble Viscount said: I beg to move the Amendment which I mentioned in the course of the discussion on the last Amendment moved by the noble Duke.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 32, insert ("Wild") before ("Duck Call species)").—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out "Wild Goose (all species)." The noble Duke said: My Lords, there are certain places in the counties of Fife and Perth where the wild geese remain, I am informed, until the end of April and do damage to the crops. Under the Bill the wild goose is protected from March I onward, so that those birds may damage the crops with impunity. I have no knowledge of this myself, but parts of the land in question is, I believe, the property of my noble friend Lord Crawford. On the Committee Stage of the Bill the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition said that he would look into this matter and I think probably he will be able to dispel the fears of those who think they would have no remedy except under a licence which is, apparently, rather difficult and expensive to obtain. I have no doubt my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland will give all necessary facilities for obtaining those licences, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 36, leave out ("Wild Goose (all species)").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, for the reasons I gave just now the acceptance of this Amendment would remove from the wild goose the protection it now enjoys. I understand that in certain parts of Scotland—I think they must be comparatively few—sufficient wild geese remain long enough in the spring to do a certain amount of damage to the crops. I do not think that damage can be very widely distributed, and it must be concentrated in one or two places where the birds congregate in numbers. Under this Bill people who have experienced such damage to their crops would apply to the Scottish Office for a licence immediately on the passing of the Bill into law. There is in existence a
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very expert and competent Scottish advisory committee with whose chairman I have, as a matter of fact, discussed the matter, and I am sure that if a licence was applied for on the ground that damage had been done in previous years, it would be readily given to the owner or occupier, so that he might protect his crops by shooting the wild geese that attacked them. I think the Bill gives protection now. In fact, by giving the owners and occupiers power to shoot the birds in Category 3 and enabling a licence to be given it does more in some ways for the protection of crops than the existing law. I hope the noble Duke will not press his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Schedule:

THIRD SCHEDULE.
Provisions of Section 43 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, applied with Modifications.
(2) Where a person is seen or found committing, or is reasonably suspected of being engaged in committing, an offence against this Act, a constable may without warrant, stop, detain, and search him, and if his name and address are not known to the constable, and such person fails to give them to the satisfaction of the constable, the constable may, without warrant, apprehend him; and the constable may, whether so stopping or detaining or apprehending the person or not, detain, and examine any bird, nest, egg, gun, or other instrument, vehicle, boat, or thing to which the offence or suspected offence relates, and require the same to be forthwith taken back to or into any place or district wherefrom or where about it was unlawfully removed, and execute and enforce that requisition.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON moved to omit from paragraph (2) the words "require the same to be forthwith taken back to or into any place or district wherefrom or whereabout it was lawfully removed, and execute and enforce that requisition;" and to insert "may seize and pending prosecution retain any such bird, nest or egg." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I placed this Amendment on the Paper because I found, on looking closely into it after what the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, said on the Second Reading, that the provision giving powers to the police, which is taken from the Diseases of Animals Act, contained some words which were not applicable to the

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purposes of the present Bill. Under the Diseases of Animals Act, if breaches of the law take place the police very naturally have power to take the animals and convey them back to the place from which they should not have been removed. There is no object in taking back to the nest birds' eggs which have been illegally taken from the nest. They are wanted for production in court. Lord Crawford raised the point as to whether boats would not be interfered with, and I, therefore, propose to omit those words and to insert the words on the Paper. I propose to omit certain words and substitute these: "May seize and pending prosecution retain any such bird, nest or egg." That removes any danger of the boat being confiscated, and does not affect the purpose desired by the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 17, leave out from ("and") to the end of subsection (2) and insert ("may seize and pending prosecution retain any such bird nest or egg").—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I desire to point out that there are certain medical preparations, mainly used for the purpose of injection, the strength and purity of which cannot be tested by chemical analysis. The most important of these are vaccines and certain arsenical preparations, and also animal extracts and insulin. The increasing use of these preparations makes it necessary to establish measures for their control and regulation, so that the public may be insured against danger or accident from their use. This Bill proposes to bring these substances under control, and to allow them only to be manufactured in this country under a licence. The conditions of the licence are to be laid down by a Committee which will consist of the Ministers in charge of the Health Committees in this country, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and they will be assisted by an advisory committee. This Committee will make regulations to deal with the strength and
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tests of the preparations, and they will vary the list in the Schedule as scientific development dictates.
The testing work will be done by the Medical Research Council, so that there will be no extra expense involved on the Exchequer. Similar provision is made for imported substances. They will only be imported by holders of licences, and when imported they will be subject to the same tests as articles manufactured in this country. The Bill does not interfere with doctors in any way, for it will not apply to a drug prepared by a registered medical practitioner for his own patients or those of another doctor. Foreign countries mostly have this form of control, or some similar form of control. We do not think it should be possible for substances which have been rejected as not up to the standard in the United States to be sold here without any penalty, for that perhaps may cause great danger to people in this country. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): I do not know whether the noble Earl opposite desires the Committee stage to be put down for Monday or Tuesday?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I meant to have said something on Second Reading, but anything that I should have said would merely have been in support of the Bill. As, however, the hour is so late I thought the noble Earl would prefer that I should not say anything. I do not think there is likely to be any objection to the Bill.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: It only affects a few large firms, and I understand they support it.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I think the Committee stage might be put down for Monday.

AGRICULTURAL RATES BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD PENTLAND: My Lords, will you allow me to correct the figure I gave during a discussion on this subject? The Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896, as your Lordships are aware, imposed a burden on every ratepayer. That burden has increased since 1896, and the fixed grant which was calculated on the Act of 1896 has not been sufficient to meet the deficiency. I stated that the deficiency for England and Wales was £7,500,000. I found it very difficult to ascertain what the real deficiency was; therefore, your Lordships will perhaps pardon my inaccuracy. I now find that the deficiency was something like £5,000,000, minus, of course, the grant which was fixed in 1896, which amounts to £1,300,000, leaving the deficiency of £3,700,000 to be made up by the general body of ratepayers. For Scotland, as the noble Viscount the Secretary for Scotland is aware, the deficiency is much less, but still proportionate, £700,000 a year. The Treasury Grant fixed in 1896 was £180,000, leaving about £520,000 to be made up by the general body of ratepayers to cover the deficiency. I thank your Lordships for allowing me to make that statement.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Further exemption of agricultural land in England from rates.
(2) Where under any local Act passed, or any Provisional Order confirmed by Parliament before the end of the present Session of Parliament, a rate to which the principal Act applied has become consolidated with a rate to which that Act did not apply, Section one of that Act as amended by this section shall apply to the consolidated rate notwithstanding any provision contained in that Act or Order with respect to the proportion in which occupiers of agricultural land are to be liable to be assessed to or to pay that rate.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I beg to move the Amendments to subsection (2) which stand in my name.
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 2, after. ("Parliament") insert ("at any time")
Page 2, line 4, leave out ("become") and insert ("before the passing of this Act become or thereafter becomes").—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Instruction to arbitrator in fixing rents under s. 12 of Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923.
5. Where under Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, a demand in writing for an arbitration as to rent to he paid for the holding has been made and has been agreed to, the arbitrator, in determining what rent is properly payable in respect of the holding, shall not take into account any increase in the rental value which is due to the passing of this Act.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved to leave out Clause 5 and insert the following new clause:—
Relief not to be taken into account in determining rents under 13 & 14 Geo. 5, c. 9, s. 12.
"5. The relief to occupiers of agricultural land granted by the principal Act as amended by this Act shall not be taken into account by an arbitrator in determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding."
The noble Earl said: Clause 5 was added to the Bill on the Report Stage in another place, and was accepted by the Government, but it was stated at the time that it might be necessary to amend it in order the better to effect the purpose which it has in view. The Amendments are practically drafting, but they make the clause a little wider than the one which was added on Report Stage in another place. This clause extends the purview of the Bill to the Agricultural Rates Act of 1896 as well as to the present Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, leave out Clause 5 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 6 to 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Rental value attributable to relief.
14. In determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding, an arbiter Shall not take into account any relief to occupiers of agricultural lands and heritages effected by the Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Acts, 1896 to 1923.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out Clause 14 and insert the following new clause:—
Relief not to be taken into account in fixing rents.
"14. The relief to occupiers of agricultural lands and heritages effected by the Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Acts, 1896 to 1923, shall not be taken into account by the land court in fixing a fair rent for a holding under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1836 to 1919, or by an arbiter in determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding."
The noble Earl said: The Amendment which stands in my name is similar to the last Amendment. This clause relates to Scotland and deals with the same question in regard to Scotland as the former one did in regard to this country. It is designed to extend the principle of the relief given by the present Bill, and also to apply to cases where a rent in Scotland is fixed by a landlord, or determined by an arbitrator for the purpose of compensation. I have been asked to move the clause in a slightly different form to that in which it appears on the Paper. I desire to put after the word "fair" ["shall not be taken into account by the land court in fixing a fair rent"] the words "or equitable," so that it shall read "a fair or equitable rent." It is purely drafting, but I desire to move it in that form.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, leave out Clause 14 and insert the following new clause:—
Relief not to be taken into account in fixing rents.
("14. The relief to occupiers of agricultural lands and heritages effected by the Agricultural Rates (Scotland) Acts, 1896 to 1923, shall not be taken into account by the land court in fixing a fair or equitable rent for a holding under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1386 to 1919, or by an arbiter in determining for the purposes of Section twelve of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, what rent is properly payable in respect of a holding.")—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 15, 16 and 17 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this is an annual Bill, which comes up at this period of the year, to continue for a further term certain Acts of a temporary character. This year it happens to be almost entirely in the same form as last year. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, this also is a Bill which comes up at this time of the Session every year. I beg to move that it be read a Second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL of DONOURHMORE in the Chair.]
Amendments proposed by the Joint Select Committee made.
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Provision as to bulk cargoes.
5. Where under the custom of any trade the weight of any bulk cargo inserted in the bill of lading is a weight ascertained or accepted by a third party and not by the carrier or the shipper, and the fact that the weight is so ascertained or accepted is stated in the bill of lading, the hill of lading shall not be deemed to be primâ facie evidence against the carrier of the receipt of goods of the weight so inserted in the bill of lading, and the accuracy thereof at the time of shipment shall not be deemed to have been guaranteed by the shipper.
LORD KYLSANT LORD KYLSANT moved to leave out "and not by" ["and not by the carrier or the shipper"] and insert "other than."
Amendment moved—
Clause 5, page 2, lines 17 and 18, leave out ("and not by") and insert ("other than").—(Lord Kylsant.)
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I will accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.

INTOXICATING LIQUOR (SALE TO PERSONS UNDER EIGHTEEN) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
KENYA COLONY.
EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP had given notice to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now able to announce the decision which His Majesty's Government have arrived at in connection with the Colony of Kenya. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I understand it would be more convenient if I put this Question to-morrow when there will be more opportunity for discussion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in moving that the House do now adjourn I have to ask your Lordships whether it would be convenient to sit on Friday morning. There are one or two formal stages of Bills to be got through and I propose, with your Lordships' consent—I am saying this to-day, in order that full notice may be given—to sit at eleven o'clock on Friday morning.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before eight o'clock.

CHESTERFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND MINISTERS' AND SCOTTISH UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS WIDOWS FUND ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a(The Viscount Novar), and reported from the Committee.

RAILWAYS (AUTHORISATION OF WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed, and to be considered on Friday next.
MID KENT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
FELIXSTOWE DOCK AND RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
WEST BROMWICH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
LONDON, MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered and agreed to.

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments to be considered on Monday next.
NATIONALITY OF MARRIED WOMEN.
Report from the Joint Committee (with the Proceedings of the Committee) made, and to be printed. Minutes of Evidence together (with appendices) laid upon the Table and to be delivered out.