Sitting of 3 July 1923

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—

Swanage Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords,].

West Bromwich Corporation Bill [Lords].

Felixstowe Dock and Railway Bill [Lords].

Croydon Corporation Bill [Lords].

Bills to be read a Second time.
London and North Eastern Railway Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Seaham Harbour Dock Bill,
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  S.S. "STRANDHILL."
  Mr. T. JOHNSTONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the s.s. "Strandhill" (late the "Lincoln Land"), which sailed in the early part of March from the Clyde with a cargo of spirits ostensibly for the Bahamas, did, as a matter of fact, not proceed to the Bahamas, but has been engaged in illicit alcohol running on the American coast; that the captain has publicly admitted disposing of 4,500 cases of spirits; that the crew mutinied for nonpayment of wages and shortage of rations; that the ship is now lying at Halifax, Nova Scotia, under constant police protection; and if he will state who were the owners of the ship and the consignors of her cargo when she left the Clyde?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Viscount Wolmer): My attention has been called to statements in the Press regarding the s.s. "Strandhill," and inquiries are being made to see whether there has been any infringement of British law. The registered owner of the vessel when she left the Clyde was William Patrick Cant, Inchicore House, Inchicore, Dublin, and the registered manager was Robert McKinley, 12, Dixon Street, Glasgow. It is not possible to publish the names of consignors of cargo, as this information is obtained for revenue purposes only.
  Mr. JOHNSTON: If the Board of Trade discover, after the investigations have been made, that such a breach of British law has taken place with this case, will the Government prosecute?
  Viscount WOLMER: Yes. If a breach of law has taken place, the Government will certainly take action.

  BRITISH TRADE, BALTIC.
  Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of British ships entering and cleared from Baltic ports during 1922; the gross registered tonnage; the corresponding figures for German ships; and the estimated value of the exports and

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  imports of the Baltic States to and from Great Britain and Germany, respectively, during the same period?
  Viscount WOLMER: I have not got complete figures at present, but will send my hon. Friend the information he desires as soon as it can be procured.

  AUSTRALIAN WOOL.
  Mr. HANNONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the final consignment of Australian wool purchases, under the Imperial purchase scheme, has now been shipped; what is the total amount of wool purchased; what is the appraised value and the purchase price actually paid by the British Government; and if he will state how the difference between these two amounts is made up?
  Captain DOUGLAS KING (Lord of the Treasury): The final consignments of Australian wool purchased under the Imperial purchase scheme have now been shipped. The total amount of Australian wool purchased was 7,156,616 bales. The purchase price paid by the British Government was £160,591,173, and this is the value actually received by the Commonwealth Government and paid by them to the Australian wool growers. It is understood that for purposes of convenience the payments made to the growers by the Australian Government were divided into various instalments, of which the first instalment has been described as the appraised value, but the British Government was in no way concerned with these questions of detail.

  SCOTLAND.

    COASTGUARD STATION, BUTT OF LEWIS.
    Sir WILLIAM COTTSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether be will take immediate steps to prevent the closing down of the coastguard station at the Butt of Lewis, owing to the protection it affords the fishing grounds from illegal trawling and the convenience to shipping generally?
    Viscount WOLMER: It is very doubtful whether there is sufficient reason for maintaining the coastguard station at the Butt of Lewis for coast-watching and lifesaving purposes, but
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    further inquiry is being made, and I will inform the hon. Baronet of the decision arrived at.

    SMALL HOLDINGS.
    Mr. DUNCAN MILLARasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the number of smallholders who have applied to the Land Courts for revaluation of their buildings, and the new valuations fixed, showing the alterations made by the Court?
    Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland): The number of smallholders who have lodged such applications with the Land Court is 79. I am not in a position at present to give the information asked for in the latter part of the question, but I will inform the hon. and learned Member as soon as I am in a position to do so.
    Mr. MILLAR: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not in a position to tell us what steps the Land Courts have taken in one direction or the other?
    Captain ELLIOT: I can give the amount by which the capital sum has been written down, but I am not in a position to tell what is more important, the amount by which the annual payments have been reduced.
    Mr. MILLAR: When will the hon. and gallant Gentleman be in a position to give us that information?
    Captain ELLIOT: I am afraid I cannot say. Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question.
    Mr. MILLAR: I will put down a question next week.
    Mr. MILLARasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health the number of small holdings constituted by the Board of Agriculture for Scotand on land acquired by the Forestry Commissioners?
    Captain ELLIOT: No holdings have been constituted by the Board on lands actually acquired by the Forestry Commission, but I think the hon. and gallant Member's question may be directed to ascertaining the number of holdings formed on joint schemes of land settlement and afforestation. On such schemes entry has already been given to 40 new holdings and 11 enlargements.
    Mr. MILLAR: Do I understand that land acquired by the Forestry Commissioners has not been disposed of by the Board of Agriculture for small holdings?
    Captain ELLIOT: No holdings have been constituted by the Board on land acquired by the Forestry Commissioners.
    Mr. MILLAR: Was it not understood that land acquired by the Forestry Commissioners was to be handed over to the Board for the purposes of settlement and why was that not done?
    Captain ELLIOT: It is in the discretion of the Forestry Commissioners to hand over land. The question should more properly be addressed to the Forestry Commissioners.
    Mr. MACPHERSONasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health when it is proposed to start the houses and steadings on holdings 6 and 7 on Pitcalnie farm, Nigg, Ross-shire; whether he is aware that the holders put down their crops this year and have no place to store them when they are harvested; and will he take immediate steps to begin and complete the buildings on those holdings and the other holdings at Pitcalnie?
    Captain ELLIOT: After some delay, for which one of the holders is responsible, tenders are now being invited for adaptation of the existing buildings allocated to holdings Nos. 6 and 7. In the meantime, storage accommodation for these holdings is available in the existing steading. As regards the other holdings at Pitcalnie, in one case the buildings are complete: in two others new buildings are not required. In two others they will be undertaken by the holders at their convenience and in the remaining case the dwelling-house has been completed and tenders for the steading are being examined.
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman ask the Board of Agriculture to expedite the consideration of my request to have these buildings continued at once?
    Captain ELLIOT: Yes. I am sure that the Board will examine this matter sympathetically. I am ready to discuss it with my right hon. Friend. I think that the delay has been due to a certain friction between one of the holders and the Board.

    HOUSING SCHEME, MID-LANARK.
    Mr. SULLIVANasked the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health when the rent of the houses now occupied for two years under the Mid-Lanark housing scheme will be fixed?
    Captain ELLIOT: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to his question on this subject on the 6th June. The Scottish Board of Health have now furnished the local authority with their answers to the statement submitted by the local authority. The Rents Tribunal will be asked to deal with the case as expeditiously as possible after the local authority have considered the answers of the Board.
    Mr. SULLIVAN: Seeing that these houses have been occupied for three years, is it not desirable that the people should know the rent they have to pay?
    Captain ELLIOT: Yes; but we have only just received the statement from the local authority. We are as anxious as the hon. Member that the people should know the rent to be paid for these houses.

    SEDITION, GLASGOW (SENTENCE).
    Mr. THOMAS HENDERSONasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether he is aware of the sentence of 15 months' imprisonment passed on Thomas Hatman, on a charge of sedition, by Sheriff Harvey, in Glasgow recently; and whether he is prepared to make full inquiry into the circumstances of this case with a view to a reduction of the said sentence?
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. F. C. Thomson): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. My Noble Friend has made enquiry into this case, and finds no grounds to justify any interference with the sentence.

  ENEMY ACTION CLAIMS.
  Colonel PERKINSasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any decision has been reached as to the treatment of the very large number of applications to the Reparation Claims Department which have been sent in

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  after the advertised time; and whether, in view of the fact that most seamen are necessarily ignorant of what goes on ashore, the committee will extend the maximum of consideration to those men who in formulating their claims did not fully comply with the regulations as to the time of filing?
  Viscount WOLMER: I would refer to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Cardiganshire on 8th May, of which I am sending a copy.
  Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Does the Noble Lord realise the hardships entailed on seamen who did not know of the time limit, and who, perhaps for other reasons, also were unable to send in claims?
  Viscount WOLMER: We realise them very fully. This question has been brought very strongly to the attention of the Royal Commission, which has made arrangements to deal with such cases.
  Captain BENN: Is the Noble Lord aware that Members of Parliament are constantly receiving letters from seamen who cannot get their claims attended to owing to this rule, and will he take some action?
  Viscount WOLMER: The position is that there are 4,000 claims which came in time of which the Commission has to dispose before it can go into the claims which were not in time.

  BRITISH ARMY OF OCCUPATION (PAY).
  Captain ARTHUR EVANSasked the Under-Secretary of State for War at what rate of exchange were the other ranks of the Army of Occupation in Germany paid on 25th May, 1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd June; and what were the commercial rates on those dates?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Gwynne): With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT; but I may say that, in each week in question the official rate was slightly more advantageous to the soldier than the commercial rate would have been.
  Following are the figures promised:
  The official rates of exchange at which, the troops on the Rhine were paid were:—

  1923.

  Marks = £1.

  25th May

  264,000

  1st June

  350,400

  8th June

  367,200

  15th June

  504,000

  22nd June

  696,000

  The commercial rates of exchange in Cologne were

  1923.

  Marks = £1.

  25th May

  250,000

  1st June

  335,000

  8th June

  360,000

  15th June

  490,000

  22nd June

  630,000

  MR. WINTOUR.
  Sir JAMES REMNANTasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if any compensation was given to Mr. Wintour when he retired from his appointment as Director of Army Contracts during the Great War?
  Mr. GWYNNE: The answer is in the negative.

  TRANSPORT.

    WALPOLE ROAD, DEPTFORD.
    Mr. BOWERMANasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether an order has been issued prohibiting the driving of mechanically propelled vehicles under the Walpole Road, Deptford, railway arch; and whether, in any legislation that may be introduced amending the Roads Act, 1920, the Department will seek power to make an order, after holding a public inquiry, prohibiting or restricting the driving of all classes of vehicles on any specified highway in any case in which it appears to be proved that a vehicle of any class cannot be used on the highway without endangering the safety of the vehicle or the persons therein or of other traffic using the highway, or that the highway is unsuitable for use by any vehicle?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The powers conferred upon the Minister

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    of Transport under Section 7 (4) of the Roads Act, 1920, and referred to in the second part of the question, are restricted in their application to mechanically propelled vehicles. The desirability of extending these powers, so as to make them apply to all classes of road vehicles, will be considered when a suitable opportunity for legislation presents itself.

    ARTERIAL ROADS (KINGSTON AND SUTTON).
    Mr. EDEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport the date upon which the Surrey County Council agreed to the construction of the arterial roads to by-pass Kingston-upon-Thames and Sutton; what was then the estimated cost of the work; what was the lowest tender received upon the specification drawn by the Ministry of Transport; why the work has not been commenced; and when it is likely to be commenced?
    Colonel ASHLEY: A provisional arrangement has been arrived at as a result of the negotiations to which I referred in my answer to the hon. Member on 19th June. I would prefer, with his permission, to postpone a detailed statement on the subject until the proposals have been considered by the Surrey County Council at their next meeting on 31st July. The preliminary work in connection with these two important road schemes is proceeding, and I can assure the hon. Member that there will be no avoidable delay.

    KERBSIDE PETROL PUMPS.
    Captain Viscount CURZONasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether he is aware that certain highway authorities are serving notices on owners of kerbside pumps ordering them to remove their installations; that three corporations purpose to seek powers to authorise such installations; that these corporations refuse to state upon what terms, if any, these powers are to be granted; and whether he will take steps to see that a standard regulation is laid down so that conditions for such installations may be uniform and may be granted throughout the country?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I am advised that local authorities have no power to sanction, or even to acquiesce in, the erection of petrol pumps or similar installations
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    on lands dedicated to a public highway. It seems to me very desirable that petrol pumps should, wherever possible, be erected on private property adjacent to the highway, in such a manner as to enable vehicles to draw up to the pump without causing obstruction either in the carriageway or on the footpath. I am not prepared to support any Clauses in private Bills intended to confer powers on local authorities to authorise such installations on lands dedicated to the public highway.
    Viscount CURZON: May I have a reply to the last part of the question, as to a standard regulation?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The standard regulation is that we do not approve of any of them.

    ONE-WAY STREETS.
    Sir HARRY BRITTAINasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether his Department has made any study of one-way streets in foreign cities; and whether he is prepared to recommend similar regulations in certain streets in London?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I have considerable information on the subject referred to in my hon. Friend's question. As I have already explained in answer to previous questions, I have no power to make regulations in the matter, but the early introduction of a Bill to cover this point, in common with many others connected with the better regulation of London traffic, is receiving my closest attention.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Has not the making of the one-way streets which the Department has examined been most satisfactory?
    Viscount CURZON: Why has the Department no power to make some Regulations? Is it the fact that Scotland Yard has no power to make Regulations? Was not the experiment tried outside this House?
    Colonel ASHLEY: It is rather an obscure point. We are trying to make the experiment here in London, but our powers are rather doubtful, and I do not want the subject to be too closely explored.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman answer my question?

    CONCRETE ROADS.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport if, in view of the progress now being made in America with concrete roads, whether he has received any official reports showing that the system of construction is satisfactory and economical; and whether, in that case, he proposes to recommend it for general adoption in this country?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I am aware of the wide use of concrete roads in America and of the results claimed. Grants are made from the Road Fund towards the construction in the United Kingdom of concrete roads where circumstances favour that method, but it is not part of my policy to recommend systems of road construction for general adoption throughout the country.
    Mr. SOMERVILLE: Is it not the fact that such reinforced concrete roads as have been constructed in this country are satisfactory, and that they have a very much longer life than the ordinary macadam roads?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I would rather wait a little longer and see how they turn out before expressing a definite opinion.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Have we not better roads than America or any other country in the world?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I think the hon. Member is quite accurate.
    Mr. J. HOPE SIMPSON: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how the price of concrete roads compares with the price of tar macadam roads?
    Colonel ASHLEY: It depends on how long they last.

  POST OFFICE.

    EMPIRE WIRELESS CHAIN.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Postmaster-General if it is proposed to give the Marconi Company a monopoly of wireless communication within the Empire by means of a licence for the working of the Empire wireless chain scheme?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans): The answer is in the negative.
    Mr. BECKER: For what is the licence?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: The licence is for the use of wireless telegraphy.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: May we take it that the Department will not attempt to exclude private enterprise in any part of the Empire?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: We have no such intention.
    Mr. BECKERasked the Postmaster-General (1) if he can give his assurance that, before the terms of the licence for the Empire wireless chain about to be granted to the Marconi Company are finally agreed, this House will have the opportunity of fully discussing them;
    (2) in view of the existing licence which the Marconi Company possesses for transmitting and receiving messages to and from all parts of the world, will he explain why it is necessary to grant this company a further licence for the development of the Imperial wireless chain; and will this licence enable the Marconi Company to build wireless stations in the Colonies to the exclusion of other companies?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: As stated in a previous reply to the hon. Member, I hope to lay the agreement with the Marconi Company on the Table of the House as soon as it is completed, but I cannot undertake that an opportunity for discussion will arise before it becomes operative. The company at present hold no licence covering wireless communication with any countries outside Europe, except the United States and Canada. The licence which is now under negotiation with the company will cover the erection of stations in Great Britain only, and will not be exclusive.
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: Is it not a fact that the Dominions refused to have anything to do with the Post Office scheme, but decided to confine themselves entirely to private enterprise?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am not quite sure that my hon. Friend is entirely accurate, but that forms the subject of a question which the hon. Member has been good enough to postpone until next week.
    Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the agreement will not be finally settled until it has been laid on the Table and reasonable time has been given to the House to consider it?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I am afraid that I cannot give that assurance. If my hon. and learned Friend wants a day for discussion of the agreement he must, of course, apply in the proper quarter for it.

    BROADCASTING.
    Sir H. BRITTAINasked the Postmaster-General whether he has received any complaints as to the efficiency of the present system of broadcasting; and whether he proposes to hold any inquiries into the matter?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I have received very few complaints as to the efficiency of the present system of broadcasting. As my hon. Friend is aware, the whole question of broadcasting is being considered by a Committee appointed by my predecessor in April last.
    Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLEasked the Postmaster-General when he expects that the Report of the Broadcasting Committee will be available; and whether it will be possible to arrange for a discussion on it before the House adjourns?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I understand that the Broadcasting Committee, although alive to the urgency of the matter, cannot yet say when they will be able to present their Report.

    WIRELESS INSTALLATIONS (INSPECTION BY MEMBERS).
    Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLEasked the Postmaster-General whether some 50 or 60 Members of the House were recently invited to inspect the Marconi wireless installation at Ongar and Brentwood; and, if so, whether the expense of the journey or refreshments falls upon public funds?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I understand that this entertainment was organised, and presumably paid for, by the Marconi Company. The Post Office has no funds at its disposal available for entertaining Members of Parliament.
    Mr. HANNON: In point of fact, was not this excursion of the greatest educational value to a large number of Members of this House?
    Sir H. BRITTAIN: In view of the great importance of wireless telegraphy to the Empire, and the backwardness of this country in that particular, will the Postmaster-General give facilities to Members of Parliament to visit the Post Office wireless installations, if they pay their own expenses?
    Mr. DOYLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that a great number of Members of Parliament who were not fortunate enough to be included in the invitation or to have attended have since sent in applications?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: In reply to the latter question, I have no knowledge on that subject. In reply to the former question, I shall be glad to try to make arrangements for Members of Parliament, at their own expense, to visit the Government stations if they would like to do so and would communicate with me.

    TEST CASES (COSTS).
    Mr. STURROCKasked the Postmaster-General the total sum of public money expended in connection with the Sutton case and the Liverpool telegraph case, in both of which the House of Lords decided against the Postmaster-General?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is estimated that the total sums of public money expended on costs in these test cases will be respectively £2,833 and £1,686.
    Captain A. EVANS: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether it was not on the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown that this appeal was proceeded with?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I have not any personal information in the matter.
    Mr. MOSLEY: Were not these cases decided against the Government in the House of Lords at a time when the right hon. Gentleman still found himself in agreement with Lord Birkenhead?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: These cases were decided by the House of Lords. I am not sure that I was, or am, in agreement with Lord Birkhenhead as a result of these cases.

    WIRELESS NEWS (SELECTION).
    Mr. FRANK GRAYasked the Postmaster-General (1) with whom rests the decision of selecting matter in the nature of news, whether originating in England or elsewhere, for transmission from wireless stations in England controlled by the Government;
    (2) whether any British news or propaganda other than that received from the Foreign or other Government Office is circulated by wireless at Leafield; and whether he accepts responsibility for all news and propaganda circulated from Leafield and other wireless stations in England controlled by the Government?
    Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS: There is no censorship of news transmitted from this country. The only official bulletin transmitted from the Leafield wireless station is that prepared by the Foreign Office. Press messages are also forwarded from the station on behalf of the correspondents of Canadian, American and Indian newspapers as well as to ships at sea. They all bear specific addresses and are dealt with entirely as private telegrams.

  IRISH FREE STATE (POSTAL OFFICIALS, COMPENSATION).
  Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether his attention has been called to the case of some 50 officials of the Irish Post Office who retired owing to the change of Government in Southern Ireland, and to whom the Civil Service Committee (Compensation) have refused to grant compensation in accordance with Article 10 of the Treaty; whether he is aware that these officials have been informed by this Committee that their supplementary pension or bonus is subject to quarterly revision, whereas, in fact, such revision is not in accordance with Article 10, and have been further informed that the appointed day, from which their seven additional years are to be reckoned, is not the 6th December, 1922, which is the regular and normal appointed day, but is the 1st April, 1922; and whether he will make representations to the Irish Free State Government for the purpose of putting this matter right?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): The officers to whom the hon. and
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  learned Member refers are entitled under Article 10 of the Treaty to compensation on terms not less favourable than those accorded to them by the Act of 1920; and under the Act of 1920 they would have been entitled to an annual allowance calculated in like manner as the superannuation allowance which the officers would be qualified to receive under the Superannuation Acts save that their years of service would have been reckoned as if they had served up to the end of the transitional period. While I desire to make it clear that His Majesty's Government cannot consent in any way to act as a Court of Appeal from the decisions of the Committee referred to from the information before me I see no reason for supposing that the compensation awarded to the officers in question is not 10 accordance with Article 10 of the Treaty, nor does it seem to be open to doubt that the appointed day from which the transitional years are to be reckoned is in the case of officers who intimated their intention to retire to the then Provisional Government the 1st April, 1922, and not the 6th December, 1922.
  Sir J. BUTCHER: How it is there are two appointed days — the normal appointed day in December, 1922, and this date, 1st April? Who fixed the second date?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Perhaps the hon. and learned Member will put that question down. For all those officers who have intimated their intention of retiring, the appointed day is the day on which financial responsibility was transferred from this House to the Provisional Government in Ireland.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Are we to understand that the British signatories to the Treaty agreed to a quarterly revision of pensions on behalf of their own officers, although that revision was to be outside their control?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I must have notice of that question.
  Sir J. BUTCHER: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper—whether this quarterly revision is in accordance with the Treaty or not?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I have not gone into that question. I cut down the answer as much as I could, and it is still a very long one, but if the hon. and

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  learned Member will put down a question on that specific point I will try to give him an answer.

  WELSH CHURCH COMMISSION.
  Mr. HAYDN JONESasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the expenditure of the head office of the Welsh Church Commission amounted to £13,444 for 1922, and is estimated at £14,000 per annum for the years 1923 and 1924; and whether, in view of the unsatisfactory financial position of the Commission, immediate steps will be taken to curtail this expenditure?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bridgeman): I am aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question, but understand that the Commissioners anticipate a considerable reduction after 1924. The Commissioners assure me that they are continually giving their earnest consideration to possible economies in the cost of their administration of the Welsh Church Acts, but under existing conditions and in the present stage of their work they do not see how this expenditure can be reduced to any considerable extent.
  Mr. HINDS: Could not economies be effected by transferring the office from London to Wales?
  Mr. JONESfurther asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that there are reputable firms in Wales who are prepared to collect the tithe rentcharge payable to the Welsh Church Commission at an inclusive commission of 2½ per cent.; and whether, in the interests of economy, steps will be taken to invite offers for its collection at that rate?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: The Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Wales inform me that they have no knowledge of any reputable firm in Wales with experience of the work of tithe rentcharge collection which is prepared to undertake the collection and the work connected with it, at an inclusive commission of 2½ per cent. If, however, the names of any such firms are furnished to them, they will of course give them their serious consideration.
  Mr. JONES: Will the Commissioners take steps to advertise, in order that firms may apply?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not think that advertising would necessarily bring reputable firms to the notice of the Commissioners. They will have to make further inquiries. I thought the hon. Gentleman had in his mind some firm who would do it, and the simplest plan would be to let the Commissioners know.
  Mr. JONES: I can get any number of them.

  EDUCATION.

    WEST HILL SCHOOL, EPSOM.
    Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Education if he has received a copy of the notice served by the sanitary inspector of the Epsom Urban District Council on the clerk of the managers of the West Hill infants' council school. Epsom; whether he is aware that the report alleges that the school is rat infested, that the wall behind the big cupboard has not been repaired or cleansed for years and is in a dilapidated, filthy, and insanitary condition and the floor-boarding rotten, that an old pot gulley with its foul contents is in the lobby, that the woodwork behind the three wash basins is dilapidated and foul, and that the waste pipes from the basins are untrapped; and that the sanitary inspector alleges that these conditions give rise to nuisance and endanger the health of the children and staff; whether the Board is aware that this structure was, about 150 years ago, used as a stable, and that the local sanitary authorities have frequently complained of its condition; whether, in view of the menace to the public health of the district caused by its continued use as a school, he will order its speedy replacement by a modern sanitary building; and whether, in the meantime, he will require the education authority to keep the present building in as good a condition as its antiquity will permit?
    Lord EUSTACE PERCY (for Mr. Edward Wood): My right hon. Friend received a letter from the Sanitary Inspector of the Epsom Urban District Council on 28th June, in which his attention was called to the notice referred to

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    by the hon. Member. The local education authority some time ago expressed their intention of replacing the building as soon as possible, and my right hon. Friend is now in communication with them on the matter.
    Mr. EDE: Will the Noble Lord make representations to the right hon. Gentleman asking that this matter should receive speedy attention, as the school has been condemned ever since I was in it 37 years ago.
    Lord E. PERCY: I think my right hon. Friend has taken speedy action. The notice was only received on 28th June.

    OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES.
    Mr. EDEasked the President of the Board of Education if he will consider the advisability of securing and publishing accurate information on the cost to the Universities and Colleges of Oxford and Cambridge of educating an undergraduate, and the average fees paid by undergraduates other than those holding scholarships, exhibitions, sizarships, or being similarly in receipt of assistance from the foundation?
    Lord E. PERCY: My right hon. Friend does not think he would be justified in asking the university and college authorities to attempt the compilation of a special return on the lines suggested by the hon. Member. A detailed analysis of the income and expenditure of the Universities and Colleges of Oxford and Cambridge, and tables relating to the expenses of undergraduate life, will be found in the volume of Appendices to the Report of the recent Royal Commission.
    Mr. EDE: Is the Noble Lord aware that the particular points which are asked for here are not to be found in the appendices, and that the most divergent views have been expressed in this House and in another place on the specific points raised here; and is it not advisable, in view of the divergency of the statements made, that accurate information should be available in connection with the consideration of the Bill now before the House?
    Lord E. PERCY: I think it might occur to the hon. Member that the reason why that is so is that the question which he is raising is a question upon which divergent opinions have always existed, namely, the question of the part of the
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    expenditure of a college authority which is properly attributable to the education of particular undergraduates.
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: Is it not the case that it would be absolutely impossible to supply that information in the case of any university in the Kingdom?
    Lord E. PERCY: Quite!

  BUILDING MATERIALS (PRICES).
  Mr. PENNYasked the Minister of Health the prices of the principal materials used in the construction of houses on 1st January and 1st April last and at the present time?
  Lord E. PERCY: The April and June prices of the principal materials used in the construction of houses will be given in the first interim report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the cost of building materials, which should be published in a few days. I understand that prices ruling prior to April will be dealt with in subsequent reports of the Committee.
  Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE: Will the amount of labour expenditure be taken into account as it is one of the principal items?
  Lord E. PERCY: I think my hon. Friend had better wait for the Report, which will be published in a few days.

  FINANCE BILL.

    LAND VALUES DUTIES.
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount which had been received up to the 31st March, 1923, from all Land Values Duties since 1910, including Mineral Rights Duties and Excess Mineral Rights Duties, the amount refunded, and the cost of the Land Valuation Department attributable to levying and raising those duties during the same period?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): The gross receipt of all Land Values Duties from their inception to the 31st March, 1923, was £6,765,714, and the amount of repayments during the same

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    period was £913,706, leaving a net receipt of £5,852,008. I regret that the cost of the Valuation Department, attributable to levying these duties cannot be separated from the cost of the other functions of the Department, which it will be remembered include the valuation of property passing on death for the purposes of Estate, etc., Duties, and valuations of property for other Government Departments.
    Mr. THOMSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the costs, including the extraneous duties of this Department?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think I can have it for the hon. Member by this afternoon. I have not got it here now.
    Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the receipts is attributable to the Mineral Duties, and how much to the Land Duties; and if he has not the information immediately available, will he be good enougt to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I will get it by this afternoon and circulate it.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of the Entertainments Duty received by the Treasury from the proceeds of this year's Naval and Military Tournament; and whether, in view of the fact that the profits are devoted to Service charities, he will consider the possibility in future of exempting this entertainment from the incidence of the duty?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The amount of Entertainments Duty payable on the payments for admission to this year's Naval and Military Tournament has not yet been determined. The law provides relief from Entertainments Duty in cases where the whole of the expenses of an entertainment do not exceed 30 per cent. of the receipts and the whole of the net proceeds are devoted to philanthropic or charitable purposes. I have no power to remit the duty in any case where these conditions are not satisfied.
    Viscount CURZON: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that no indirect subsidy will be given to any of these charities?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have no power to give it, in any circumstances.

  PERCENTAGE GRANTS.
  Mr. HAYDN JONESasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will give the date upon which the Committee, appointed in May, 1922, to examine the question of the percentage grant system last met; and whether further meetings are to be held before its Report is drawn up?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The last meeting of the Committee was held on the 6th March. I understand that a draft Report is being prepared and will be submitted to the Committee at their next meeting which will be held shortly. In view of the complexity of the subject the preparation of a Report has necessarily taken some time, but it is being completed as rapidly as, possible. Other meetings will certainly be necessary before the Report reaches its final form.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    GOVERNMENT STAFF NEWS ASSOCIATION.
    Mr. MOREINGasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the existence of a body styling itself the Government Staff News Association, purporting to be established on behalf of the interests of the Civil Service staffs, and that the secretary of this association has taken upon himself to answer by letter a question addressed by a Member of this House regarding the staffing of the Admiralty, and to explain in that letter the necessity of increased staffs in that Department, and alleging to give the considered opinion of the Board of Admiralty on the matter; whether the association has any official sanction; and, if not, whether he will take steps to prevent associations of this kind from attempting to influence Members of Parliament?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am aware of the existence of this body and my attention has been drawn to the letter referred to in the second part of the hon. Member's question. The association has no official sanction, and I need hardly say that I should strongly deprecate attempts

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    on the part of any such association to interfere with Members of this House in the exercise of their duty.

    LAND VALUATION OFFICE.
    Mr. HANNONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the number of rooms occupied by the Land Valuation Office; the number of caretakers and cleaners employed for these rooms; and the average annual cost per room of cleaning and caretaking?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I regret that the information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available and could not be obtained without a disproportionate expenditure of time and labour.
    Mr. HANNON: Is it a fact that the cleaning and caretaking of this office costs the taxpayer over £5,000 a year?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not think I could differentiate the cost as between this and other offices, but I have one figure from which my hon. Friend might be able to work it out. The average cost of cleaning each 300 square feet of the rooms occupied by the Land Valuation Department is about £9 4s. 3d.
    Mr. T. THOMSON: Arising out of the original reply, and in view of the figure given in reply to the question which I put earlier, is it not the fact that the net income from this Department is greater than the net cost?
    Mr. HANNONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the proportion of the value of services rendered to other Departments by the Department of Inland Revenue which is performed by the Land Valuation Office?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The estimated cost of the services rendered by the Inland Revenue Valuation Office to other Government Departments for the current financial year is £173,300.
    Mr. HANNON: Is it not the fact that the main function of the Land Valuation Department during the past financial year was to render services to other Departments?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I expect I shall be making a statement in the course of the Debate this afternoon on the services of the Land Valuation Department. It would be much too long to give
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    it by way of a reply to questions, and perhaps the hon. Member would await it.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  The following question stood on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Linlithgow.
  Mr. SHINWELL: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the case of E. Parker, a fireman on the transport "Montgomeryshire"; whether he can state for what reason this man has been imprisoned, and under what Act was he tried at Constantinople; whether the crews of transports are regarded as belonging to the mercantile marine or the Admiralty; and, if the former, why they require to obtain naval passes for leave ashore?
  Viscount CURZON: In view of the small number of questions on the Paper, and the great importance of this question to the British mercantile marine, would it be possible for one of the hon. Member's friends to put this question for him?
  Mr. SPEAKER: If he has been asked to do so.
  Viscount CURZONI could not put it myself.
  The following question stood on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Shettleston Division.
  Mr. WHEATLEY: To ask the Under-Secretary to the Scottish Board of Health if he will state what progress is being made with the proposed scheme for a new road between Glasgow and Edinburgh; and what action the Government propose to take in view of the promise of the Government to provide relief work for the unemployed in the Clyde area?
  Mr. R. MORRISON: On a point of Order. Am I not entitled to put this question? The hon. Member for Shettleston is at present under sentence of suspension, but this question, which is a very important question, was put on the Paper before the suspension operated, and under these circumstances, may I ask whether it is in order to put it?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think it is. The hon. Member could put it down afresh, of course.

  SHIPPING CASUALTIES (STATISTICS).
  Sir CHARLES BARRIEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, seeing that no issue has been made of the return of shipping casualties and loss of life since that covering the period from 1st July, 1914, to 31st December, 1918, it is the intention of the Board of Trade to resume the publication of these important figures at an early date?
  Viscount WOLMER: The question whether the publication of these statistics shall be resumed is under consideration.
  Captain A. EVANS: Can the Noble Lord give us any idea of the cost of these particulars?
  Viscount WOLMER: I must ask for notice of that question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister, supposing the Finance Bill tomorrow be disposed of before 11 o'clock, what business he would then propose to take?
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): If there be any time available after the Finance Bill is disposed of to-morrow, we propose to proceed with the Administration of Justice Bill and the Criminal Justice Bill.
Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: On a point of Order. May I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the time allotted for the consideration and Third Reading of the Finance Bill, according to the question just asked by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. MacDonald), may not be exhausted, and will you, in selecting Amendments, bear that fact in mind, because it appears that the working of the rule in the selection of Amendments is curtailing unduly the rights of private Members to move Amendments?
Mr. SPEAKER: I think the word "unduly" is rather a reflection on the Chair.
Captain BENN: I need hardly say that I had not the least desire to reflect on the Chair, and if I did so, I withdraw it.
Mr. SPEAKER: I endeavour to exercise my duties so as to give the House the most business-like discussion on Amendments, and to avoid repetition. I have not selected, and I do not propose to select, Amendments that were discussed at great length on the Committee stage. Were I to do so, it would be mere repetition.

HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT.
Mr. CHARLES BUXTON: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to limit the hours of employment."
The purpose of this Bill is to establish by law a maximum working week of 48 hours, and I emphasise particularly the word "maximum." It is not intended that that limit should constitute a minimum. It is provided in the Bill that, where in any industry a shorter working week has been secured, or may hereafter be secured, by agreement between employers and workers, that shorter working week shall be laid down, by a special Order having the force of law, as the maximum working week for that industry. With regard to overtime, systematic overtime is rendered illegal by this Bill. Overtime, if it be worked at all, may be worked only for purposes of emergency or breakdown, or for purposes of an exceptional character within a fixed limit of hours per week, and, if worked, it must be worked in accordance with an agreement made between employers and workers, and it must be paid for at a rate at least 25 per cent. above the normal time rate. With regard to the workers included in the Bill, all workers are in the first instance included, with, of course, the important exception of the mining industry, which has its own Statute on the subject of the limitation of hours; but, of course, time and opportunity are allowed by the Bill for any industry, where the employers and workers agree that the limitations of the Bill cannot be applied to that industry, to make application for an exemption, whether partial or total, from the provisions of the Bill. But the onus of proving that an exemption is necessary rests upon the industry concerned.
I should like to point out, what many hon. Members will realise, that this Bill is broadly following the recommenda-

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tions of the National Industrial Conference, which met in 1919. Those recommendations were made by employers' as well as by workers' representatives, and were signed by, among others, the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir Allan Smith), well known in connection with the engineering industry, so that they do not represent the conclusions of one side alone. Those recommendations were embodied shortly afterwards in a Bill which was introduced by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Coalition Government. That Bill was accorded a First Reading by this House on 18th August, 1919. The provisions of this Measure are also on the lines of the Washington Convention on the question of the hours of employment—the Convention agreed to at the First Conference of the International Labour Organisation established under the Treaty of Versailles. This Convention has already been ratified by a considerable number of countries, though not yet, I regret to say, by this country. The question is of something more than national, it is of international importance and significance. The Washington Conference was merely one part of a very great movement of immense social importance which took place for the shortening of the working hours in 1919–20. The movement is one in which we think this country ought to take the lead instead of lagging behind; and the worst of it is that our bad example is taken as an excuse by other countries, notably and conspicuously just now by Poland, as an excuse for not adopting the Washington Convention.
I need not say much about the reasons that render such a Measure as this necessary. Most hon. Members will agree that there are few darker and blacker pages in our industrial history than the hardship, exhaustion, ill-health, irritation, ruin of family life, and denial of opportunities for recreation, rest, and education, which have been involved in the long hours—the unnecessarily and scandalously long hours—to which generation after generation of our fellow-countrymen have been sentenced in times past. And even if some economic loss were to follow, we might fairly say that we are prepared to put up with some diminution of production, and compensate for it by a better distribution, rather than permit the continuance of a system so injurious from a human
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and social point of view. As a matter of fact, we are not faced with that alternative. We have official and unofficial evidence, evidence of the employers themselves—and the most enlightened employers at that—to prove that the shortening of the hours need not necessarily be followed, and has not in fact been followed, by a diminution of output. In many cases quite the contrary. It is quite true that there has been some advance in this matter. Something has been gained. I think it is hardly an exaggeration to say that the gain in the case of their working hours is almost the one and only gain that has been secured by the working classes since the War. There are about 2,000,000 of the workers of the country who are working 48 hours or less per week. That, however, does not alter the position of the millions who are still working more than 48 hours per week, particularly in the unorganised trades, and among the women workers. And it does not alter the fact that though the situation is not so difficult at the moment, it is highly probable that when trade improves the conditions will become much more serious, and that attacks upon the hours of labour, of which there are already sinister signs, will become much more determined and much more widespread than now. In my constituency, with the textile workers especially, the danger is felt to be a very real danger indeed. The thought of returning to the old working hours of 55 and 56 per week is one that haunts their minds like an evil dream. It brings back what, to them, is a vivid and hateful memory. It is against such evil possibilities that I propose, by this Bill, to erect a legal barrier which will not easily be broken down.
Question, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to limit the hours of employment," put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Charles Buxton, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Greenwood, Mr. John Hodge, Mr. William Robinson, Mr. Thomas Shaw, Mr. James Henry Thomas, Mr. William Thorne, Mr. Tout, Mr. Turner, and Mr. Robert Young.

HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT.
  HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT BILL,
  "to limit the hours of employment," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 184.]

TRUSTS (SCOTLAND).
Major Sir KEITH FRASER: I beg to move
"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921."
This Bill which I ask leave to introduce has for its objects the amending of the Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921, to give better facilities to the tenant for life of heritable and movable trusts to meet the heavy burdens now imposed by taxation and rates, and to allow the Court to sanction, on petition of the trustees, the sale of certain movable securities in order to pay these charges, and to take in exchange an insurance policy on the life of the tenant for life provided there are other securities, the dividends from which would secure the payment of the premiums. The Court should have power to act as circumstances dictate, bearing in mind at the same time that the trustees must administer the trusts in the interest of those concerned and the trusts laws of Scotland. It is, I suggest, the duty of this House to give orders to the Court to lay down a general principle as regards the trust, for you cannot anticipate what will occur in the future, and, as I say, the Court must act in accordance with the circumstances of the case and take each case on its merits. You cannot revive the dead hand. Many a testator would sit up in his grave and protest if he knew the results of the will that he signed, results caused by the War and the heavy rating and taxation, which has been so harmful to the estate that he left in trust, and to the employment of labour on that estate. The Bill is in entire harmony with the Act of 1921, and I am confident that it in no way interferes unnecessarily with the trusts.
The Bill is helpful to unite heritable and movable securities and at the same time it protects the movable security by insurance, and is thus helpful to the trust and, indeed, at the expense of the tenant for life. It also protects the heir-at-law, and in every way it is in harmony with the Scottish Trusts Act of 1921, and in fact it improves it. Clause 4 of this Act gives general powers to trustees, and is very helpful, and takes a broad view.
Mr. J. JONES: On a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Member entitled to introduce a Bill without explaining all the Clauses?
Mr. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. I have often known it done.
Sir K. FRASER: Clause 5 more than confirms the broad views of Clause 4. I hope that my little Bill will be accepted by the House. I quite admit that this Bill will require careful drafting, but I do not think it requires a super-brain in order to re-draft this Measure so as to make it very useful. It will be useful in certain cases to tide over a period of time. I will give an illustration. Supposing, for instance, the heir to the trust is a minor who wishes to keep his or her home. When the minor comes of age the tenant for life and he can arrange matters. It is in order to get over this period that this Bill makes the necessary provision. It would also be useful under other circumstances. How, for example, are you going to employ labour if the tenant for life has not the money to pay for labour or even the rates and taxes? Supposing there is a forced sale of a trust property the tenant for life cannot carry on. Heritable property in the Highlands is no longer an asset but a liability, and the tenant for life cannot sell except at a great loss to the trust. The new rich, the war profiteers, do not require Highland estates. They cannot shoot, they cannot ride, and they cannot fish, and they cannot walk up the hills, and therefore they are no use in the Highlands.
I should like to illustrate the cost of a Highland estate by calling the attention of the House to the accounts of an estate for the period from the 9th October, 1920, to the 9th October, 1921. The first item on the receipts side is rents (shooting, etc.), £70; rents (agricultural, etc.), £609; rents (grazing), £1 5s.; stock sold, £129; timber sold, £30; miscellaneous, £15; Income Tax repaid, £68; total receipts, £923 12s. 5d. On the payments side there is an item for rates, taxes, etc., of £1,018. The owner could not afford even to go to that property. The payments altogether amount to £3,166 11s. 3d., showing an excess of payments of £2,242 18s. 10d. for the upkeep of that estate, and, on the top of that, there is the Super-tax, as if he received £800 from the estate. Is this not robbery? Even in pre-War days the owners of estates could not live on them. Since August, 1914, the expenses increased enormously, the Income Tax and rates

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have gone up, and then there is Super-tax, and all this has left them in a parlous condition. I think if this Bill is passed, it will be helpful in many ways.
Question, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill 'to amend the Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921,'" put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Major Sir Keith Fraser, Lieut.-Colonel Courthope, and Sir Neville Jodrell.

TRUSTS (SCOTLAND).
  TRUSTS (SCOTLAND) BILL,
  "to amend The Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 185.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,

Caledonian Railway Bill, without Amendment.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill, with Amendments.

Amendment to—
Explosives Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Greenock Corporation." [Greenock Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate and confer powers upon the Bournemouth-Swanage Motor Road and Ferry Company; and for other purposes." [Bournemouth-Swanage Motor Road and Ferry Bill [Lords.]
Matrimonial Causes (Regulation of Reports) Bill,
That they give leave to the Lord Bishop of London to attend in order to his being examined as a witness before the Select Committee appointed by this House on the Matrimonial Causes (Regulation of Reports) Bill, his Lordship consenting.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
GREENOCK CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords].
Ordered (under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered To-morrow.
BOURNEMOUTH-SWANAGE MOTOR ROAD AND FERRY BILL [Lords.]
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
CHESTERFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. WILLIAM NICHOLSON reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed him to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Bill [Lords]); and that they had discharged Major Barnett from the Standing Committee C and appointed Sir Neville Jodrell to act as Chairman (in respect of the Performing Animals Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).

  STANDING COMMITTEE B.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Bill [Lords]): Sir George. Berry, Mr. James Butler, Mr. Charles Buxton, Lord Hugh Cecil, Sir Henry Craik, Mr. Ede.

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  Mr. Arthur Greenwood, Mr. John Murray, Sir Charles Oman, Mr. Rawlinson, Sir Sydney Russell-Wells, Mr. Ann sley Somerville, Mr. Webb, Mrs. Wintringham, and Mr. Edward Wood.

  STANDING COMMITTEE D
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported horn the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee D: Mr. George A. Clark Hutchison, Mr. Kirkwood, Sir Francis Lowe, Mr. Lynn, Mr. Duncan Millar, Mr. Muir, Mr. O'Neill, Captain Rankin, Mr. Remer, Mr. Samuel Roberts, Sir Courtenay Warner, and Dr. Watts.
  Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee D: Mr. Trevelyan Thomson; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Acland.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  FINANCE BILL.
  As amended, further considered.
  Mr. SPEAKER: With regard to the first new Clause—(Deduction in respect of person taking charge of children for man who has divorced his wife through no fault of his own)—standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Basingstoke (Sir A. Holbrook), I am afraid that it is outside the scope of the Bill. I call upon the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. Gould) to move his new Clause (Procedure on appeals before General Commissioners).
  Mr. HANNON: May I point out that the new Clause—(Amendment of Section 88 (3) of 5 and 6 Geo. V., c. 89)—raises a point which was not fully discussed during the Committee stage?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I had regard to that consideration. I think it ought to have been put on the Paper at an earlier date.

  FINANCE BILL.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Procedure on appeals before General Commissioners.)
    Paragraph (a) of Sub-section (3) of Section one hundred and thirty-seven of the Income Tax Act, 1918, shall be read and construed as if for the word "may," wherever the same occurs therein were substituted the word "shall."—[Mr. Gould.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. GOULD: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This is a very small concession which I hope the Financial Secretary will be able to make. First of all there is no legal right, under the Bill as it stands at present, for an appellant, when appealing before the General Commissioners to be represented by a solicitor or barrister. The Financial Secretary has given us a concession that, in appeals under Schedule A, he may be represented by any person, and that person is defined as an accountant or any other authority. When taking the appeal before the General Commissioners, however, there is no right to be represented by a legal gentleman. It is quite true that in many cases objection is not made to such representation, but our complaint is that there is a right on the part of the revenue authorities to refuse to allow
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    the representative of the appellant before the General Commissioners to be a barrister. I do not propose to take up the time of the House in discussing this, and, inasmuch as a concession has been made by the Financial Secretary in regard to Schedule A, I ask that it shall be extended to all appeals before the General Commissioners. I think, in granting that, the right hon. Gentleman will be meeting the wishes of all sections of the House and of private individuals as well. It will involve no burden on the Exchequer, as the expense will be thrown on the individual appealing, and I hope that, under the circumstances, the Amendment will be accepted.
    Mr. HANNON: I beg to second the Motion.
    It is a very small concession for which we are asking. The matter has been thoroughly discussed already. All we are asking is that the appellant shall be allowed to be represented by a properly qualified person.
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): My hon. Friend was good enough to see me on this and one or two other matters connected with the Bill, and, in view of the position in regard to Schedule A, I think it only right to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend, but it will require a slight verbal alteration at the end.
    Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
    Clause read a Second time.
    Amendment made: At the end of the Clause, insert the words
    "and for the words 'or may' the words 'and shall'. shall be substituted."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]
    Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The first Amendment I propose to call is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon), dealing with the question of mineral waters.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Reduction of duty on certain table waters.)
    As from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, the Excise Duty now chargeable under Section four of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, at the rate of fourpence per gallon on certain table waters sold or kept for sale in Great

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    Britain or Northern Ireland, shall be charged at the reduced rate of twopence per gallon.
    Mr. AMMON: I beg to move, after the word "twenty-three," to insert the words
    "until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three."
    The questions raised by this Amendment have been already fully discussed on former stages of the Bill, and I do not propose to again repeat the arguments then put forward as to why this tax should be remitted. The Amendment as it appears on the Paper would have the effect that on the first day of August the tax now levied on these particular commodities would cease to apply. It will be remembered by the House that in the discussion on the first occasion when the matter was raised the Paymaster-General, who was then acting as Financial Secretary to the Treasury, gave something in the nature of a promise that the whole matter should be considered and a statement made upon it at a subsequent stage of the Bill. Then when the matter came up for discussion again other matters were raised by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) which created a difference of opinion between the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), myself, and several hon. Memebrs opposite. On that, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said he would go further into the matter and have some discussion upon it with persons directly concerned with the trade. The position was that, on the one side, it was suggested that the remission of taxation provided for in the Bill was so small that it was impossible to pass it on to the consumer. On the other hand, it was contended that if that were so there was no case for the remission of taxation. Against that it was argued that the tremendous fall in the product of this particular industry and the comparatively small amount of revenue realised by the taxation justified a claim for a remission of the whole tax. It was shown that the product of the industry had fallen by 63 per cent., and that ancillary trades connected with it had almost disappeared. The proposed remission was so small that it would be impossible to pass it on to the conumer, and any loss of revenue could be more than recouped by the increased trade in
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    the raw products used in the manufacture. I do not know the result of the right hon. Gentleman's conference with the members of the trade, but I am hoping it was such that he will be able to meet us in some respect on this matter. At a former stage of the discussion the hon. Member for Thanet (Mr. Harmsworth) put a question to me which I was unable to answer as to the amount of profit made by one particular firm dealing in this particular commodity. I now find out that that particular firm specialises in supplying the commodity to the licensed trade. But the rest of the trade are dependent on the consumption by large masses of the population, mainly working people and children. It would be idle to suggest that the fall in the trade is due to the tax, although in large measure the burden may be responsible for it. Undoubtedly climatic conditions of weather have also been responsible for a good deal of the falling off in the consumption of this particular commodity. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, having discussed this matter with the trade, will now be able to announce that he has arrived at some agreed policy which will be acceptable to all.
    Mr. HARDIE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    4.0 P.M.
    Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: My hon. Friend who has just spoken has stated, as he generally does, perfectly fairly the position which some of us have taken up with reference to this proposal of the Government. He has, however, made one omission. When the Financial Secretary came to reply to the observation which I made—namely, that if there were a remission of taxation the House was bound to see that the consumer would benefit—he stated that, at any rate, so far as one section of the trade at Manchester was concerned they had already made arrangements by which the consumers would benefit, and therefore it was a little difficult thing to understand how the other members of the trade represented by my hon. Friend opposite could come to the House and say that it was impossible to give such benefit to the consumers. It was upon that that many of us on this side of the House, and, I think, in all quarters of the House, urged my right hon. Friend to see the representa-

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    tives of the trade, because we took the view that there was a large sum of money involved—£400,000—and that, unless he was able to make definite and businesslike arrangements with the trade, it was not fair to the taxpayers of the country that this remission should be made. I am sure that the House will await with interest the statement of my right hon. Friend. I want to point out to him that, whatever the result of his negotiations may be, I, at any rate, received this morning—I suppose in common with a good many other hon. Members—a leaflet entitled "Important Facts Concerning the Table Waters Duty." It is issued apparently by the Scottish Federation of Aerated Waters Manufacturers' Associations at Perth. Apart from the interesting chapters that are provided for Members of this House, I looked to see what undertaking they were going to give that the consumer would benefit by the remission of the tax, and I cannot imagine that my hon. Friends will be very satisfied if all that the trade are going to do is embodied in the last page of the leaflet, because all it says is this:
    "Pre-War conditions can only he obtained by the price of goods being brought within the compass of the purchasing power of the general public, and the whole interest of those engaged in the trade is obviously in that direction."
    That is a short, simple statement in this leaflet, which has a very nice title, as a good many of these documents often have—"Consumers Bound to Benefit." I hope my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—as I am sure he will, because we have every confidence in him—will be able to state to the House this afternoon exactly what definite undertaking this trade has given. I do not think I am unreasonable if I say that, if no undertaking has been given by the trade that the consumer will benefit by this remission of taxation, it is a fair and right attitude to take that this remission of taxation should not be made. As my hon. Friends opposite know, it is in no antagonistic spirit to the trade that I take up this attitude. There is a good deal in their argument that if anything is to be done at all, the whole of the tax should be remitted, but, inasmuch as the Government do not see their way to do that, I ask my right hon. Friend what undertaking the trade has given, and in what way this remission is going to benefit the consumers.
    Mr. W. GRAHAM: I will not detain the House more than a few moments on this controversy, which has reached its last stage, so far as the present Finance Bill is concerned. Suffice it to say that at least 500 manufacturers in this industry, out of about 3,000 pre-War, have gone out of business, and undoubtedly the high taxation since 1917, which was, certainly, a War proposal, has contributed to the difficulty in which the industry now finds itself. This afternoon I propose to leave all argument of that kind on one side, because the consideration, which we have to face at this stage, turns really on the question as to whether, if this duty be taken off, it will be passed on definitely to the consumer. Realising the difficulties of this industry, the Government have already made a concession of 2d. a gallon on sweetened waters. We are pleading for the remission of the surviving 2d., making 4d., on sweetened waters, and our contention is that the complete removal of the 4d. is necessary in order to enable us to get a unit which can be passed on by way of reduced price to the consumers. The present reduction of 2d. is about four-sixteenths of a penny on a 20-ounce bottle. That is a large bottle and is not a bottle in general use. Therefore, it is quite clear that the trade finds great difficulty in passing on the remission. Our plea is that the removal of the 4d., as against the 2d., would enable us to get a unit which would, beyond all question, reach the consumer.
    Let me again remind the House that the whole case which this trade has put forward has turned upon a reduced price to the consumer. They have said that there is no hope unless they can give that lower price, because they believe that it is the high price at which the commodity is now sold that is killing the trade and paralysing its recovery. There need, therefore, be no doubt or confusion in the mind of any hon. Member on that point. On the last occasion on which this matter was debated I recognised quite frankly and fully acknowledged the friendly and sympathetic attitude of the Financial Secretary. He agreed to meet representatives of the trade and to see what further steps could be taken in order to consider this claim for the remission of the 4d. on sweetened waters. May I remind hon. Members that if this 4d. is remitted those mineral waters will still remain exposed

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    to very heavy taxation. There is, of course, the taxation on the spirit which is used in their manufacture; there is the very heavy taxation of 25s. 8d. per cwt. on the sugar which is the predominating raw material; and there is the taxation on the other branches of the industry of which the sweetened waters are only a part. All that must be kept clearly in mind.
    The representatives of the trade and some of us who are interested in this matter from the Parliamentary point of view discussed the matter at great length with the Financial Secretary at a recent meeting. My hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has asked a perfectly fair question. What offer was made by the trade that they would pass on the whole of this concession, if it were given, to the consumer? Let me, as clearly and as simply as I possibly can, try to reply on that point. Under date, 19th June, the trade, following that interview at the Treasury, gave a written undertaking to the Government, in which they made a statement that they would guarantee, as regards the wholesale trade, that the whole remission of the duty of 4d. on sweetened waters would be passed on to the consumers; and, in the second place, that they would exert every influence with the retail trade—and it is very considerable—to see that the price was reduced to 3d. per half pint. They went beyond that and in that written guarantee, which is in the possession of my right hon. Friend opposite, they said that they would do everything in their power, by poster and advertisement and other trade regulations which are open to them, to see that that policy was carried out. I beg the House, before we pass from this controversy in its final stage, to look at the very heavy sacrifice that this trade has made and the sacrifice which it is now prepared to make in order to get the remission of the full 4d. from the sweetened waters. Wages have been very largely reduced, overhead charges have been brought down to the lowest possible point, only one-third of the machinery is in operation, and a very large percentage of the people engaged in the trade are now in receipt of the unemployment benefit. They have done everything in their power by sacrifice on their part to contribute to any concession which the Government might see
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    their way to make. They have gone beyond that and they have said, "If you will allow the remission of the 4d. on sweetened waters we will stand in to the tune of a sum that cannot be less than £200,000 or £300,000 and do everything in our power to see that this remsision reaches the consumers." I venture to ask the House whether any proposal could be fairer. I do not want to overstate the case for this industry in any shape or form, but at the moment this tax is really the balancing factor between the recovery of the industry on the one hand and I am afraid its continued stagnation on the other.
    They are making that offer to the Government at the present time, and they are pleading for a remission of the surviving 2d. I anticipate that the reply of the Government may be that they have already made a concession of 2d. on sweetened waters this year, and in the existing financial circumstances they do not see their way to go further. May I say that I believe the remission of the remaining 2d. would not involve much more than £250,000, and, even if it involved that sum, I am perfectly satisfied that the Government would save that money, partly from the return they would get from the recovery of the trade, and partly from the saving of the unemployment allowance to which the Government have to make their contribution. We have analysed this position very carefully indeed, and I think that is an understatement and not an over-statement of the case. We in Scotland are familiar with what we sometimes call alternative pleas, and I venture into that realm very briefly as applicable here. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman will resist us to the last ditch in this matter. May I ask this question by way of alternative. He himself has appreciated the great difficulty under which this industry labours. Will he say that, having regard to the condition of this industry and the small amount involved by this remission of the surviving 2d. on sweetened waters, the Government will be prepared to give this preferential treatment when another Finance Bill comes to be considered? I believe the case for that is beyond dispute, but I very much hope that the Government will now agree to our request and give us the remission of the surviving 2d. on sweetened waters.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not want to go into the whole question of the duty on table waters which was debated 10 days ago and which earned me the unenviable name of "Ginger-pop Minister," according to a cartoon which I saw. The Government do not accept in any way the suggestion that this duty is the cause of the very serious condition in which the mineral water trade finds itself at the present time. There is one fact which, I think, conclusively disposes of that. In 1917–18, before the addition was made to the taxation on the ingredients, the consumption of these waters was 56½ million gallons, and in 1918–19, after the higher taxation had been put on, the consumption rose to 65 million gallons. It was only last year that it fell to 30 million gallons, and I am quite convinced in my own mind—and I have discussed the matter fully with the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) and the deputation from the trade which called upon me—that, although the tax may be a factor in the decreased consumption, it is nothing like the whole cause. One has only to look at the weather to-day to find a far more complete reason than any tax of a small fraction such as ½d. or ¼d. on a bottle of ginger beer or other sweetened mineral water. In the case of mineral waters sold at 3d. a bottle, this very small tax cannot be the cause of the falling off in consumption. I do not want to argue the matter at length, but I think I must say that from the point of view of the Government.
    The appeals that have been made to me come from two quarters. The first is from the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh, that the tax should be taken oft altogether, and the other is from my hon. Friends on this side, who ask me to revoke the concession that has already been made, unless the House is convinced that the concession will be passed on to the consumer. A very important deputation was good enough to wait upon me at the Treasury. I saw them, and discussed the matter with them at as great length as they desired, but I was not convinced by them upon the point of which I have just spoken, namely, that the whole cause of the trouble was the tax. I think there are many other causes, which I need not go into now. I told them I feared that it would be impossible to make the further conces-
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    sion for which they asked, and then I devoted myself to the point which has been raised by the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), as to whether this concession would be passed on to the consumer. I put it very frankly to them that the House of Commons was not at all satisfied, that it took great cave to ensure as far as possible that the concession regarding the Beer Duty would be passed on to the consumer, and that it desired to be fully informed that this remission of taxation would also be passed on to the consumer in the same way. After that meeting, I wrote to the chairman of the National Union of Mineral Water Manufacturers' Associations, pointing out that I was afraid I could not make any further reduction in the duty this year, and that I was still not quite satisfied that the reduction which had been made was being passed on to the consumer; and I asked them to write me a letter, when they had fully considered the matter, in order that I might be able to assure the House of Commons that that would be done. The difficulty, I understand, was that one or two manufacturers, out of a very large number, were not inclined at first to make this concession. However, I received a letter, dated the 22nd June, from Mr. Albert Shaw, the president of the association, as follows:
    "Sir,—I beg to acknowledge and thank you for your letter of the 21st instant in further reference to Sweetened Table Water Duty, and, while I still hope that you may be able to see your way to wholly remit the duty, I now, on behalf of the National Union and Scottish Federation, and as an addendum to our letter of the 19th instant, definitely state that as nearly all the manufacturers have reduced their price to 2s. per dozen, every manufacturer will use his best endeavours to see that the ordinary type of mineral waters is retailed to the public at 3d. per bottle."
    The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh has borne that out by giving to the House an undertaking, as far as he can give it on behalf of his friends, that they really mean to carry this out, and I think that they do. They were very frank indeed when they came to see me, and, as I have said, with one or two exceptions, all are prepared to give the undertaking, and, indeed, the president of the association has given it on their behalf. I think and hope, therefore, that the remission will follow through to the consumer, and, personally, I hope to find, when I take my evening bottle of ginger beer to-night,

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    that the price has come done even in this House. There is only one other question which the hon. Member raised, namely, as to whether I could give an undertaking that the balance of the duty, amounting, as he said, to between £200,000 and £300,000, would be remitted in the next Budget. The hon. Gentleman, of course, knows, and the House knows, that it is impossible for me in my position to give any pledge as to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer will do next year. There may be a different Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there may be quite different circumstances. We cannot tell what the circumstances may be. All I can say is that we cannot reduce it this year. I have not barred out any reduction next year; the matter is left entirely open, without any pledge either one way or the other.
    Mr. SEXTON: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered the very serious effect which this tax is having, not merely upon the mineral water manufacturers, but upon the bottle manufacturers in this country? Does he know that it is a fact that, as a result of this tax, and the consequent economy in bottles, at least 20,000 men are out of employment in this country, while the bottles required are obtained from the Continent, where there is no tax, and whence they can be imported into this country to-day at 6s. per gross less than they cost here? The tax is really responsible for that.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am afraid that the hon. Member cannot put the impartation of Czechoslovakian bottles down to the ginger beer tax. That raises quite another question, and I am not quite sure that the hon. Member and I would not be on the same side in regard to the question of the importation of bottles from Czechoslovakia. I regret that I cannot add to the concession which the Government has made, but, in consequence of the declaration made by the manufacturers, I am not prepared to withdraw the concession, and I hope, therefore, that the House will allow it to be carried.
    Mr. POTTS: In my constituency there is a large mineral water manufacture, and I have a letter here, arising out of inquiries that I myself have made into the matter, which gives an assurance that,
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    if the tax be taken off, it will be remitted to the consumer absolutely and in full. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he cannot take it off this year, or do anything further than he has now done. In my constituency also, as in that of my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton), there are glass works. The people at those glass works are only working one week in five or six, owing to the non-purchase of this particular drink, and, whatever the Parliamentary Secretary may think, I consider that that is a matter of importance. Even if the duty is not very much, it all has a tendency to prevent people from purchasing. This tax originated in 1916. Prior to the Budget of last year, a case was established in this House for the assessment of herb beer at a lower rate than other table waters, and, as a matter of fact, while other table waters were charged at 4d. per gallon, the tax on herb beer was reduced to 2d. if a case was made out then for a distinction between herb beer and other mineral table waters, it surely is entitled to that distinction now, and I think that, since 2d. has been aken off other table waters, herb beer ought to be entirely free. I hope the Minister will take that point into consideration.
    Major BURNIE: As I spoke on this matter during the Committee stage, I should like to point out that these taxes have effects which, in my opinion, the Minister here in this House does not understand. For many years the carbonic acid gas trade was in the hands of the Dutch, but in my constituency we have a works making carbonic acid gas for this industry, and that trade is being crippled completely. As the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) has pointed out, when an industry is hindered or hampered by a tax, subsidiary industries are also crippled, and that causes unemployment. I also pointed out during the Committee stage, that the conditions of the trade in Liverpool and the district are entirely different from what they are here, and of course it was the large association which conducted the negotiations to which reference has been made. For the benefit of the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) I saw the President of the Liverpool Botanic Brewers' Association again, and he told me that the reduction that was going to be made by the trade was from 2½d. to 2d. I should like to ask

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    the Parliamentary Secretary one question with regard to a matter which has already been mentioned by an hon. Member on the other side—namely, what is the authority which compels these poor shopkeepers to put in a meter, costing £6 6s., in order to collect a tax amounting to about half-a-crown a month? It seems a large imposition to put upon these small shopkeepers for the purpose of collecting this tax. They have asked me under what authority that was done, for they cannot understand why a taxpayer should be forced to put in such an expensive instrument in connection with such a small tax. I thought, also, that the Financial Secretary might consult his officials with regard to this tax, because I should have thought that the collection of such a tax from the soda fountain trade must be a very expensive matter, and that the returns must be very small in comparison with the cost of collection. In Liverpool and the district it is the poor people who consume these drinks. Cheap mineral waters are not rich men's drinks, and I am sure the decision of the Financial Secretary will be regretted.
    Sir K. WOOD: I should like to thank the Financial Secretary for his statement. I am sure the House will appreciate the efforts he has made to find a reasonable settlement, and I feel sure that the trade will honourably fulfil the undertaking they have given.
    Amendment negatived.

    CLAUSE 6.—(Continuation of Customs duties imposed under 5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 89.)
    The new import duties and the additional Customs duties on dried fruits imposed by Part I of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall, subject to the provisions of Section eight of the Finance Act, 1919 (which relates to imperial preference rates), continue to be charged, levied and paid, in the case of the new import duties, until the first day of May, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, and in the case of the duties on dried fruits, until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-four.
    Mr. EDE: I beg to move, after the word "duties" ["the new import duties"], to insert the words
    "except the duties on cinematograph films of a wholly educational character or imported wholly for educational purposes."
    [This is a matter which was raised on the Committee stage when the Committee
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    was being led by the Solicitor-General. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury returned to the House after dinner, without having heard our speeches and was in such a genial frame of mind that he promised between then and this stage of the Bill to go into the question and see if he could find a form of words which would enable him to deal with this phase of the subject. I understand the effect of the dinner has worn off and he is not able to find the form of words. We have, therefore, been compelled to find our own form of words. I think this is a very harmful tax upon the knowledge of our people. Shortly before I became a Member of the House I received a complaint from the parents of a village within 20 miles of this House who were very much aggrieved at the state of the geography teaching in the village school. It is a small isolated parish on the Surrey Hills. I went there and asked the children some questions about geography and found that out of 60 scholars not one of them had ever seen any running stream or a bridge, and when I asked them what a tram-car was the only answer I could get was, "Is it something like an aeroplane?" The peculiar thing was—and it instances very well the isolation of these children—that they had seen aeroplanes passing overhead but had never seen anything as ancient as a tramcar. Even in urban districts it is astonishing the small range through which children have moved in the course of their lives, and if you go into any urban elementary school you will find that nearly half the children who are under 10 or 12 years of age have never been more than four or five miles from the place where they were born. It is desirable that we should make the great world, of which these children have to form a very influential part in the years to come, a very real thing to them, and the only way, in my opinion, as one who has had to face the problem practically for a good many years, in which we can deal with it under modern conditions is to bring the cinema into the schools. Experiments have been made, and wherever it has been tried under a judicious teacher—I admit it is capable of abuse—it makes history and geography and the great world round the children a very much more real thing to them than it can be made in any other way.

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    All education authorities at present are very much smitten with the zeal for economy—a false zeal in many instances—and one of the ways in which that zeal has exemplified itself has been in refusing to allow any extension of educational initiative and enterprise which entails any large sum of money. Although it is a small matter to the Treasury—in fact we were rather scoffed at in Committee and told that the the repeal of the whole of the cinema films duty would only result in a saving to the cinema industry of some £271,000—these irritating additions to the cost make such extensions of the use of the cinema as I am pleading for almost impossible because people look at the very last penny they have to spend in these ways. If we could point to the fact that the cost of the films was reduced I am sure in a good many districts where it is not allowed at present the use of the cinema in the schools would be very considerably extended. In view of the necessity of our rearing a race of people who shall have something more than the narrow vision they get from a mere study of the parish in which they live, we should do all we can to encourage them to get accurate information of the great world of which this, country forms no unimportant part. If we can in this way bring these places and events clearly before the child's mind during its impressionable years we shall do a great deal more towards getting a really Imperial people than anything we can do when they have arrived at man's estate with their minds always dwarfed and stunted by the things which have happened to them in the earlier years of their life. This is a small matter as far as the Treasury is concerned but, as a great human matter, I doubt if there are any things discussed on the Budget which may have a greater influence on the course of our history in years to come than in opening up to the child life of the country, as we should through this Amendment, greater opportunities for understanding something of those parts of the world which they can never hope to get in touch with during their impressionable years.
    Mr. MORGAN JONES: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Having had a good deal to do with teaching in elementary schools, I assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is
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    very much involved in this which might be of great benefit to the education of the Country. A common form of criticism against the cinema, rightly or wrongly, is that its films make an appeal to the lower nature rather than to the moral influence of the children, and it seems to me to be highly desirable that in regard to films of an educational character we should have a special form of exemption for them so that the new experiments which are being introduced into our schools up and down the land can be adopted with very much greater freeom and more universally than is the case at present. After all, a large number of the children in our elementary schools will probably be denied an opportunity of obtaining firsthand acquaintance with the institutions of foreign countries and the mode of life of people abroad, and if this exemption were granted, the educational films would be of vast importance in bringing home to the child, by way of eye training, the institutions and also the forms of life which prevail in various parts of the world. Children learn very much more through the eye than perhaps in any other way, and it is of vital importance to the teacher that this adjunct to his work might be open to him so that the children might find the school not so much a drudgery and more a pleasure in the future than it has been in the past.
    Sir HENRY CRAIK: I have listened to the speeches of the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Ede) with much interest, and I am certain of his strong zeal for education. I am sure he will hear my observations on the other side and credit me also with the desire to do the best I can for education. Honestly, and from strong conviction, I am not in favour of the introduction of the cinematograph as part of the ordinary machinery of our schools. I am sure it is open to a number of objections. There are certain physical objections of a sort, which I think the hon. Member will agree are possible. The over-use of the cinematograph is certainly not good for the eyesight of young children. It often produces very bad effects. Besides that the whole psychological and intellectual effect of these cinematographs is a matter of which I have very grave doubt. We have a faculty innate in us, and that is the faculty of imagination, which may best be fed, not by looking at pictures passed

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    rapidly over a film, but by the observation of nature itself. I am sure there is a certain amount in these cinematograph shows that rather dulls and stultifies the imagination and prevents children from giving that accuracy of personal observation and seeking out the objects of that personal observation, which is a great part of that self education which enters into the life of children. I have very often seen cinematograph shows of the hunting of wild animals. That has impressed me as one of the very worst influences which could be brought before a boy. In the pursuit of these animals the pain inflicted is not accompanied by the one thing which is a redeeming point in actual sport, that is, personal danger and personal daring and courage. He sits quietly in an armchair and watches these exciting things. He is put into an entirely wrong position, from which it is very difficult to make an escape.
    Let these popular shows, which are called by a silly Greek word, be popular. Let people throng to the pictures and get all the advantages of drama and more intellectual ways of entertainment, but, above all things, do not let us introduce one more fad into our schools. Let us keep the curriculum of our schools simple. If the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is so impressed by these appeals that he encourages this sort of thing in the schools, one thing introduces another and another form of entertainment will be introduced as an accompaniment, and that also will be borrowed from the theatre or some entertainment which will be said to have an educational effect and intention, and he will be asked to exempt it from taxation. Too often in our zeal for vocational education we have turned the schools into a bad imitation of the workshop. Do not let us turn the schools into a bad imitation of the picture show. Let the schools keep to their own work, and do not let appeals be made to the Treasury to give exemption to a form of entertainment which is ill-fitted to be used inside the schools, and which would he a rival to the picture show.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind hon. Members that we are not now discussing the Education Estimates.
    Major-General Sir R. HUTCHISON: Notwithstanding what has been said by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik),
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    who is so learned in educational matters, I think it would be a pity if we drove out of our schools a system of education which has been proved abroad to be of very great advantage. I am certain that anyone who has had experience in teaching young persons and people who are uneducated will admit that the cinematograph is a tremendous advantage and power in education. Education through the eye has been proved to be an advance on education through the brain. I have had great experience in instructing young soldiers in various matters, and I have found that they take up things like geography, and instruction in arms much more quickly through the eye than through the brain. I do beg of the Financial Secretary to give some consideration in regard to this educational agent which has been proved to be such a great success abroad. If we in this country adhere to the old methods we shall be dropping behind the advanced education of which other countries are making use. These films which are produced for educational purposes are of no great value from the point of view of shows for amusement, and if the Financial Secretary reduces or removes the duty on these educational films he will only deprive the country of a very small revenue. I hope that he will see his way to grant this very small concession.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am not an education expert and I do not propose to approach this matter from the point of view of the education expert but from the revenue point of view. I promised the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Ede) that I would carefully consider whether anything could be done, and I wrote to him about it. The difficulty is how it could be done. The Amendment proposes to exempt imported films. It does not apply to British films of an educational character. The hon. Member wants to get foreign films in free. They are to be exempted from duty if the films are wholly of an educational character, or if they are imported wholly for educational purposes. That would involve an examination of the films twice over by the Customs to see whether or not they were of a wholly educational character. That is rather a difficult censorship to put on an officer of my Department. If the films are not of a wholly educational character but are imported wholly for educational purposes, it would involve

    287
    following the films all over the country to see whether they were used wholly for educational purposes.
    The reason why we cannot accept this Amendment is because of the utter impossibility of carrying it out. It is not that we object to educational films. The result from the practical point of view, and the Customs point of view, is that we cannot work the Amendment if the House passes it. Last night the House very considerably extended the provision to exempt films which are of British production. Take the Mount Everest film, which is considered of an educational character, showing the geography of a great part of India to our school children. That film is now admitted at the reduced rate of one-third of a penny per foot under the provisions already in existence, and extended last night. That should satisfy the House that if any British producer cares to go to India or Central Africa or elsewhere, and if he comes within the very wide terms of the Amendment accepted last night, the duty, instead of being 5d. per foot, would be reduced to the almost nominal sum of one-third of a penny per foot. On the ground that it is impossible to carry it out, and that educational films produced here or produced abroad by British producers can come in for very small sums, I hope the House will not spend very much further time on this Amendment.
    Captain BERKELEY: I hope the House will not be led away from the Amendment by the ingenious argument advanced by the Financial Secretary. Naturally, he is anxious to safeguard his Department as far as possible from the onus of being called upon to determine whether or not a film is educational in character. There exists a very efficient body called the British Board of Film Censors, and there is no reason whatever why he should not place on that body the question of settling whether or not a film is wholly educational in character. He mentioned the fact that by a decision of the House last night such films as the Mount Everest film would be admitted at a reduced rate. That is something, but it is not all that we want. We want educational films admitted free of duty, and it is proper that they should be admitted free of duty. So far as the right hon. Gentleman's contention went
    288
    as to the wording of the Amendment, would he accept it if it read: Insert the words
    "except the duties on cinematograph films of a wholly educational character,"
    and the words "or imported wholly for educational purposes" wert left out? I do not think the latter words are essential. If he accepted the Amendment in that form and left with the British Board of Film Censors the task of censorship—It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to turn off that suggestion with a suggestion of contempt. It is a responsible body, created by this House.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No.
    Captain BERKELEY: It was enacted by the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is responsible to the Government.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. and gallant Member is suggesting to me that I should import the British Board of Film Censors into the Customs to decide whether or not these films are of an educational character. That is impossible. I have the greatest respect for the British Board of Film Censors, but they are not an official body in any sense.
    Captain BERKELEY: It would be a perfectly simple matter to make them an official body for this purpose. If the will is there, the reform can be carried out. It is all very well to make an excuse. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to give effect to this very reasonable Amendment he could very easily devise machinery to carry it into effect. With respect to the considerations put forward by the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik), I would, most deferentially, because we all respect the opinions and attainments of the right hon. Member, recall to his mind the fact that geography teaching in the schools when I was a boy, and perhaps when he was a boy, was long and deadly dull. I do not think the geography lessons when he was a boy were very much more interesting than when I was a boy.
    Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: Look at the result.
    Captain BERKELEY: They were one long dull yarn. A very great deal can be done through the eye by means of cinematography in the teaching of geography. You can bring home to the mind

    289
    of the child or of the adult—adult education is a thing in which we are all interested nowadays—all the various countries, not only of our Empire, but of the other great countries of the world. It is highly important from the point of view of trade that that should be so. When the right hon. Gentleman says that the student should learn from observation of nature, I would remind him that that is all very well when you have access to nature.
    Major PAGET: Does this come within the terms of your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to education?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I asked hon. Members not to discuss the Education Estimates. We are now on the Finance Bill.
    Captain BERKELEY: I beg pardon. I was led away by the arguments advanced by the right hon. Gentleman. The Prime Minister, on a recent festive occasion, spoke of the importance of training through the eye, and I hope the Financial Secretary will do something to give effect to that training in the schools. I hope he will reconsider his decision. If the Amendment is put in the way I have suggested, and, if not, I hope the Mover will press it to a Division.
    5.0 P. M.
    Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: Three years ago I was concerned with other hon. Members in dealing with a Bill for the blind, and the experience we obtained through an hon. Baronet, a Member of this House, a great medical authority, together with other authorities, led us to consider the bearing of cinematography upon the sight of children. The sole reason why I shall support the right hon. Gentleman is because of the effect on my mind of the evidence which we had of the deleterious effect upon the sight of children caused by an invention not yet perfected as the cinema. We obtained in those days—there may have been great advance since then—figures dealing with blindness and defective sight in child life from Germany, United States of America and France, and it was shown that cinemas had a most hurtful effect on the sight of young children. It was proved then and I think even at this time also that the facilities for cinema education in class rooms and in educational establishments are by no means adequate,
    290
    and have a detrimental bearing on the nerves and the sight of the children. The presentation of a proper, helpful and most rapid system of education by the cinema is, I believe, a great possibility, but only in properly constructed schools and with highly perfected apparatus.
    This is most vital—and I speak with some little knowledge of the subject, because I have been a member of a national Committee dealing with defective children. It is a serious matter how we are going to give facilities for a not yet perfected invention, but still a useful one, in the presentation of educational matters to the child. Anything we can do in respect to this matter of education to compel those who deal with the same to give representations of the very highest type we ought to do. But again I emphasize that until the cinema proprietors and the science of education by the cinema has obtained such a degree of excellence that it cannot, in any degree, be held to spoil or depreciate the sight, or adversely to influence the nerves and the work of the child, I, for one, will not support anything which would make it easy to get any kind of cinema introduced into schools. I therefore oppose this ill-considered Amendment which, I respectfully assert, widens the cinema presentation in the schools cinemas which at present are not in any shape or fashion prepared to give the films perfectly in schoolrooms. I shall support, in the Division Lobby, my right hon. Friend in opposition to the Amendment.
    Captain W. BENN: I hope that the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment will press it to a Division. I listened with amazement to the speech of the hon. Member for Royton (Sir W. Sugden), and not so much with amazement, but, certainly, with complete disagreement, to that of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik). This is an educational Amendment. It is an Amendment to remove one tax on education, imposed by the previous Government and by this Government. Books and instruments are taxed, and now another means of taxation has been found, which this Amendment proposes to remove. The only argument which has been adduced against the Amendment is that the cinema is injurious to the sight.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: Yes, and the type of schoolroom also.
    Captain BENN: I imagine that if the hon Baronet the Member for the Scottish Universities had sat in the House in the days of Caxton, he would have made an energetic protest against the introduction of printing, on the ground that it would injure the sight of those who learned perfectly well by word of mouth.
    This is a perfectly good Amendment. It is good in that it helps to destroy a bad tax. It is and Amendment against which no argument has been put forward, and I hope it will be pressed to a Division.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 247.

    Division No. 265.]

    AYES.

    [5.5 p.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Harney, E. A.

    Rae, Sir Henry N.

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Richards, R.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

    Riley, Ben

    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

    Ritson, J.

    Attlee, C. R.

    Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

    Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Herriotts, J.

    Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich

    Barnes, A.

    Hill, A.

    Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Hillary, A. E.

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Batey, Joseph

    Hinds, John

    Salter, Dr. A.

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Bennett, A. J. (Mansfield)

    Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

    Sexton, James

    Berkeley, Captain Reginald

    Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

    Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

    Bonwick, A.

    Irving, Dan

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Bromfield, William

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Simpson, J. Hope

    Brown, James, (Ayr and Bute)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Sinclair, Sir A.

    Buckie, J.

    Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Burgess, S.

    Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

    Smith, T. (Pontefract)

    Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

    Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

    Snell, Harry

    Butler, J. R. M. (Cambridge Univ.)

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

    Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

    Lansbury, George

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Chapple, W. A.

    Lawson, John James

    Strauss, Edward Anthony

    Charleton, H. C.

    Leach, W.

    Sullivan, J.

    Clarke, Sir E. C.

    Lee, F.

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.

    Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Linfield, F. C.

    Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

    Collins, Pat (Walsall)

    Lunn, William

    Thornton, M.

    Darbishire, C. W.

    McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Turner, Ben

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

    Duffy, T. Gavan

    M'Entee, V. L.

    Warne, G. H.

    Dunnico, H.

    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Ede, James Chuter

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Edge, Captain Sir William

    March, S.

    Webb, Sidney

    Edmonds, G.

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

    Marshall, Sir Arthur H.

    Weir, L. M.

    England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

    Welsh, J. C.

    Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

    Middleton, G.

    Westwood, J.

    Foot, Isaac

    Millar, J. D.

    White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

    Gosling, Harry

    Morel, E. D.

    Whiteley, W.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Murnin, H.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Greenall, T.

    O'Grady, Captain James

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wintringham, Margaret

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Paling, W.

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Parker, H. (Hanley)

    Wright, W.

    Groves, T.

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

    Grundy, T. W.

    Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Potts, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Hardie, George D.

    Pringle, W. M. R.

    Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr.

    Frederick Hall.

    NOES.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Ainsworth, Captain Charles

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.

    Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Berry, Sir George

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Apsley, Lord

    Barnett, Major Richard W.

    Bird, Sir William B. M. (Chichester)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Blundell, F. N.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick W.

    Becker, Harry

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Parker, Owen (Kettering)

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Gwynne, Rupert S.

    Pease, William Edwin

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Pennefather, De Fonblanque

    Briggs, Harold

    Halstead, Major D.

    Penny, Frederick George

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

    Harrison, F. C.

    Perring, William George

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Harvey, Major S. E.

    Pielou, D. P.

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hawke, John Anthony

    Pilditch, Sir Philip

    Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

    Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Privett, F. J.

    Butcher, Sir John George

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Raine, W.

    Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

    Hewett, Sir J. P.

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

    Cadogan, Major Edward

    Hiley, Sir Ernest

    Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.

    Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

    Hood, Sir Joseph

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Reynolds, W. G. W.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Houfton, John Plowright

    Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)

    Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

    Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

    Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Hughes, Collingwood

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer

    Roberts, Rt. Hon. Sir S. (Ecclesall)

    Clayton, G. C.

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W.)

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

    Roundell, Colonel R. F.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

    Cohen, Major J. Brunel

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Russell, William (Bolton)

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

    Conway, Sir W. Martin

    Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)

    Sandon, Lord

    Cope, Major William

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff South)

    Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

    Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

    Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Skelton, A. N.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

    Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

    Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

    Curzon, Captain Viscount

    Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Dalziel, Sir D (Lambeth, Brixton)

    Lamb, J. Q.

    Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    Lever, Sir Arthur L.

    Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Lorden, John William

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Lorimer, H. D.

    Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Lort-Williams, J.

    Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

    Dixon, Capt. H. (Belfast, E.)

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

    Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    Doyle, N. Grattan

    Lumley, L. R.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Tubbs, S. W.

    Ednam, Viscount

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

    Makins, Brigadier-General E.

    Wallace, Captain E.

    Ellis, R. G.

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Margesson, H. D. R.

    Waring, Major Walter

    Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

    Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford)

    Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

    Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

    Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

    Falcon, Captain Michael

    Mercer, Colonel H.

    Wells, S. R.

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Fawkes, Major F. H.

    Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

    Flanagan, W. H.

    Molloy, Major L. G. S.

    Whitla, Sir William

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Wise, Frederick

    Furness, G. J.

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Murchison, C. K.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward. F. L. (Ripon)

    Gardiner, James

    Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Garland, C. S.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Wood, Major Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)

    Gates, Percy

    Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

    Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

    Yerburgh, R. D. T.

    Gould, James C.

    Nield, Sir Herbert

    Greaves-Lord, Walter

    Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hackn'y, N.)

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Gibbs.

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Paget, T. G.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Amendment of Acts relating to illicit distillation in Northern Ireland.)
    (1) Any person convicted before a Court of summary jurisdiction in Northern Ireland of an offence against Sections sixteen, seventeen, nineteen, twenty-two, twenty-
    294
    three, twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-seven, or twenty-eight of the Illicit Distillation (Ireland) Act, 1831, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five hundred pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both such penalty and imprisonment.

    295

    (2) If any officer of Customs and Excise, or other officer having the powers of an officer of Customs and Excise in relation to offences under the Illicit Distillation (Ireland) Act, 1831, has reasonable grounds to believe that any spirit illicitly distilled, or any utensil, vessel, or material used or intended to be used for the illicit distillation of spirits is in or upon any land or other premises, he may enter the premises if need be by force and examine the premises and every part thereof and remove and take away any spirit which he has reasonable grounds to believe to have been illicitly distilled, and any utensil, vessel, or material which he has reasonable ground to believe to have been or to be intended to be used for the illicit distillation of spirits.

    (6) References in the Spirits (Ireland) Act, 1854, the Illicit Distillation (Ireland) Act, 1857, and the Revenue (No. 2) Act, 1861, to any officer of any rank of the Royal Irish Constabulary shall be construed as references to an officer of corresponding rank of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and the Commissioners of Customs and Excise may, after consultation with the Minister of Home Affairs for Northern Ireland, direct that any powers or duties which may be exercised or performed by an officer of the Royal Irish Constabulary under the Illicit Distillation (Ireland) Act, 1831, or any of the enactments aforesaid other than Sections nine and ten of the Spirits (Ireland) Act, 1854, may be exercised or performed by a special constable belonging to any class of special constabulary specified in the direction.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to move in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "Sections" ["an offence against Sections sixteen, seventeen"], and to insert instead thereof the word "Section."
    This Amendment, and the subsequent Amendments on this Clause, are purely verbal and drafting.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "officer" ["or other officer having the powers"], and insert instead thereof the word "person."
    In Sub-section (6): Leave out the word "officer" ["to any officer of any rank"], and insert instead thereof the word "member."
    Leave out the word "officer" ["an officer of corresponding rank"], and insert instead thereof the word "member."
    Leave out the word "officer" ["an officer of the Royal Irish Constabulary"], and insert instead thereof the word "member."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]

    CLAUSE 10.—(Amendments as to Income Tax on assurance companies.)
    (3) Where an assurance company carries on both ordinary life assurance business and industrial life assurance business, the business of each such class shall for the purposes of the Income Tax Acts be treated as though it were a separate business, and Section thirty-three of the Income Tax Act, 1918, shall apply separately to each such class of business.
    Sir H. CRAIK: I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert a new Subsection—
    "(4) For the purpose of removing doubts it is hereby declared that a mutual assurance company carrying on life assurance business is entitled to relief under Section thirty-three of the Income Tax Act, 1918, in the same manner and to the same extent as if the business of the company were the business of a proprietary assurance company, and the provisions of this Section shall be construed accordingly."
    I move this Amendment, in place of my right hon. Friend the Member for the Aston Division (Sir E. Cecil). It is designed to remedy what is an obvious injustice to these particular assurance societies, and to encourage them in their work. The Amendment explains itself, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept it, in order to put right a very obvious injustice.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: This is really only a clearing up Amendment. The Department has for some time administered the law in accordance with the Amendment, on the assumption that the Income Tax Act, 1918, really meant what it implies. In order, however, that there should be no mistake or doubt as to whether they were acting correctly, we thought that this Clause had better be accepted. We put it before the Association of Life Offices, and they asked us to accept it. It is a correct Clause, and follows out the existing interpretation of the law during the last two years.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 11.—(Income Tax on leave pay, etc., to be chargeable under Schedule E.)
    (1) Where any emoluments, pension or annuity are or is payable by or through any public Department in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, but otherwise than out of the public revenue of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the public revenue of Northern Ireland, to a person who is or has been employed in the service of the

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    Crown outside Great Britain and Northern Ireland in respect of that service, or any pension or annuity is so payable to the widow, child, relative or dependant of any such person as aforesaid, and the person in receipt of the emoluments, pension or annuity is chargeable to Income Tax as a person resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, the emoluments, pension or annuity shall be chargeable to Income Tax under Schedule E, and the provisions of the Income Tax Acts relating to the deduction, assessment, and collection of tax in respect of official pay payable at a public office shall apply accordingly with any necessary modifications.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "by or through any public Department."
    This is a verbal Amendment, which must be taken in connection with the next Amendment to insert other words, which are a little wider than the words that are being left out.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In Subsection (1), after the word "Ireland" ["Northern Ireland, but"], insert the words
    "by or through any public Department, officer, or agent of the Government of any part of His Majesty's Dominions, including any territory under His Majesty's protection."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]

    CLAUSE 17.—(Right of appeal in respect of Schedule A values and assessments for 1923–24.)
    (1) Without prejudice to any right of appeal under the Income Tax Acts or the Acts relating to Inhabited House Duty, any person aggrieved by the amount of the annual value of any property assessed under Section thirty-two of the Finance Act, 1922, shall be entitled to appeal to the General Commissioners against the assessment of annual value if he gives to the surveyor, not later than the thirty-first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, notice in writing of his intention to appeal.

    (2) Any owner or other person in receipt of the rent of any property, although not the occupier thereof, who is aggrieved by the amount of the annual value of the property assessed under Section thirty-two of the Finance Act, 1922, shall be entitled, if a notification of the value so assessed was not delivered to him, to appeal against an assessment to Income Tax under Schedule A or to Inhabited House Duty in respect of that property for the year 1923–24, if he gives to the surveyor not later than the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, notice in writing of his inten-
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    tion to appeal, and on any such appeal the Commissioners may confirm or amend the assessment as the case may require, and the provisions of the Income Tax Acts relating to appeals against assessments to Income Tax under Schedule A, and the relevant provisions of the Acts relating to Inhabited House Duty shall, with any necessary modifications, apply respectively to appeals under this Sub-section:

    Provided that nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the collection or recovery of any tax or duty assessed and charged, and where any assessment is reduced on an appeal under this Sub-section, any tax or duty overpaid shall be repaid.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "surveyor," to insert the words "notice in writing of his intention to appeal."
    This Amendment, with those Amendments which follow, is for the purpose of carrying out the pledges which I gave in the course of the Debates in Committee.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In Subsection (1), leave out the words "notice in writing of his intention to appeal," and insert instead thereof the words
    "or where the notice of assessment was not given before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, not later than the thirtieth day of September, nineteen hundred and twenty-three."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "Any" ["Any owner or"], to insert the words "occupier of any property or any."
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: May I ask for an explanation of this Amendment?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Those words are to carry out a pledge which I gave, I think, to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith). The object is to give the occupier of any property, as well as the owner, the right of appeal in regard to Schedule A Assessments.
    Mr. LEES-SMITH: I raised this point in the Committee stage, and put down an Amendment for the purpose of giving effect to it. The point is that, as a result of the agitation, the period of appeal was extended from three weeks to three months, and in some cases to nearly two years, so far as the owners of property are concerned. We ask that that right should be extended also to the tenant of the property. That proposal has now

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    been accepted by the Government, and I shall not, therefore, persist in the Amendment which stands in my name.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: There is little difficulty about this Clause, which I hope my right hon. Friend will allow me to bring before him. Very often a hardship to the owner occurs in reference to these appeals, arising out of the fact that the notices go to the tenants and sometimes the tenants do not send the notices on. Consequently owners may not know that they are being reassessed, though they might want to appeal if they did know. How does my right hon. Friend intend to get over that in case the owner is not able to appeal within the proper time provided by the Act?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I quite agree. I think that my hon. Friend raised that point in Committee. The House will see that we do include an extension of time for appeal, where the owner had not yet delivered to him the notice, up to the 5th April, 1925.
    Mr. SAMUEL: It would not do to issue two notices, but if the receiver of the notice could be advised that the notice should be sent on to the occupier it would save a great deal of trouble and expense to the owner.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I will take a note of my hon. Friend's suggestion, and, in regard to the notices which have not yet been sent out, I will see if anything can be done.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 18.—(Time within which assessments may be amended, additional assessments made, etc.)
    (1) An assessment, an additional first assessment or a surcharge in respect of Income Tax chargeable for the year 1920–21 or any subsequent year of assessment may be amended or made, as the case may be, at any time not later than six years after the end of the year to which the assessment relates or the year for which the person liable to Income Tax ought to have been charged.

    (2) The time during which an assessment to Super-tax may be amended, or an assessment or additional assessment to Super-tax made, shall, in the case of assessments in respect of Super-tax chargeable for the year 1920–21 or any subsequent year of assessment, be extended so as to include any time within six years after the end of the year of assessment.

    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I beg to move, at the beginning of Sub-section (1), to insert the words "Subject to the provisions of this Section."
    The object of this and the Amendments which follow is to carry out a pledge which I gave to the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel). The main Amendment is the new Sub-section (3). It would be keeping up the administration of estates too long if the six years which are allowed in ordinary cases were to be allowed in the case of the estates of deceased persons, and I promised to bring up an Amendment limiting the period to three years in such cases.
    Mr. A. M. SAMUEL: I am very much obliged.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made: In Subsection (1), after the word "be" ["may be, at"], insert the words
    "under Section one hundred and twenty-five of the Income Tax Act, 1918, or Section one hundred and twenty-six of that Act."
    In Sub-section (2), at beginning, insert the words "Subject to the provisions of this Section."
    After the word "made" insert the words
    "under Sub-section (7) of Section seven of the Income Tax Act, 1918."
    At the end of Sub-section (2) insert a new Sub-section:
    "(3) For the purposes of the charge of Income Tax or Super-tax on the executors or administrators of a deceased person in respect of the profits or gains or income which arose or accrued to him before his death, the time allowed by the foregoing provisions of this Section shall not extend beyond the end of the third year next following the year of assessment in which the deceased person died."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]

    CLAUSE 27.—(Repeal of s. 4 of Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910.)
    As from the commencement of this Act such parts of Section four of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, as are not repealed by Section fifty-seven of the Finance Act, 1920, shall be repealed."
    Sir GODFREY COLLINS: I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
    It will be within the recollection of hon. Members that on the last day of the Committee stage, at about a quarter to 12 o'clock, the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Balfour) moved the insertion

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    of Clause 27. I think that the House will agree that the Committee was in a good humour at that moment as hon. Members were expecting an early release. In the course of the Debate on that Amendment the Financial Secretary to the Treasury informed the Committee that an inquiry was taking place on the subject, and the impression left on hon. Members was that it was not the intention of the Government to accept the Amendment. Later on, when a Division was challenged, the Financial Secretary took off the Whip, a rather unusual course.
    Sir F. BANBURY: You asked for it.
    Sir G. COLLINS: I am not anxious to join issue with hon. Members opposite on that point. I think that it would have been easy for any hon. Member on this side of the House so to delay the course of business after the speech of the Financial Secretary that it would have been impossible for the Government to carry the Clause that evening. I would remind hon. Members that three hours before the Amendment was moved, new Clause after new Clause was moved by hon. Members opposite, and no exception was taken by hon. Members on this side of the House, and not a single word was said on the subject. If this Clause be not deleted, three consequences will result. First, owners of land will avoid their fair share of taxation; second, there will be loss of revenue, which will fall upon the shoulders of the general taxpayers; and, third, local authorities and ratepayers throughout the country will be forced to pay an extra high price for land when the State develops our housing activities and other forms of State activities. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]
    I would remind hon. Members that the staff of Customs officials employed in collecting and collating the information contained in these forms costs only £4,000 a year. The Prime Minister on 28th June, 1920, was asked if he will state the annual cost of the staff which the Government proposes to retain in connection with the section dealing with land values which remains intact and in his answer he stated that the annual cost of this staff required for remaining work in connection with the assessment and collection of the duty would not exceed £4,000 a year. These officials have a very important and difficult task to perform. According to a
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    statement issued by the Inland Revenue authorities in the year 1916 the total value of the land of the country was £5,230,000,000. That is the total capital value of the land in this country, and, taking as a basis that land changes hands every 25 years at least, there is a sum of £200,000,000 every year changing hands for the price of land. Therefore it is clear that any information which will enable officials of the Inland Revenue Department at Somerset House to check accurately the price of land will bring in large extra sums to the Exchequer if their valuation is correct, and I submit that an accurate valuation of land will have as far reaching consequences and that if that information is not accurate there will be a loss to the revenue as well as high prices paid by local authorities when they require land for public purposes. Let me endeavour to show to the House that the Government themseves, or, rather, the late Chancellor of Exchequer, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), in a speech in this House on 19th April, 1920, put very great stress on the necessity for these officials obtaining the information. It will be within the recollection of hon. Members that the State valuation of land was completed in 1920. In a carefully prepared Budget statement the Chancellor of Exchequer of that year used these words:
    "We are confirmed in the view of the necessity for the continuance of this Department by the great assistance which has been afforded by the valuation staff during the War in the requisitioning of land for war purposes, and by the proved worth of their service in connection with the acquisition of land for public purposes, such as housing and land settlement. … Apart from their revenue functions in connection with Death Duties, the Valuation Department will render such assistance to other Government Departments as occasion may require."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th April, 1920; col. 85, Vol. 128.]
    Then the right hon. Gentleman used these words:
    "For this purpose" (that was for the purpose of local authorities acquiring land at reasonable prices, also for the purpose of the revenue receiving its fair share of the price of the land) "it is essential that the system under which particulars of sales and leases of land are reported to the Inland Revenue should be continued in order that the Department may be in possession of the fullest information on which to base any fresh valuation that may have to be made."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th April, 1920; cols. 85 and 86, Vol. 128.]

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    Those are chosen words from a speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer responsible to this House for levying taxes fairly on one and all. If words have any meaning, I submit that in the opinion, not of a private Member on either side of the House, but of the ex-Chancellor of Exchequer, it was essential that the system of supplying particulars of sales of land should be maintained if his Department was to carry out its duties properly. It is idle to levy taxation and to deny to the taxing authority adequate powers to levy that taxation fairly. It is obvious that if accurate information is withheld from the authorities of Somerset House the difficulties will be increased in future. In 1920, in this House, it was frequently argued that the State valuation was of very little use, because the valuations were uncertain in their character. There is nothing uncertain in the information or in the character of the information supplied to Somerset House in the record of these transactions. Landlords complain of the expense involved in filling up the forms. Do other taxpayers not incur expense because of the requests of Inland Revenue authorities? Every hon. Member knows that Income Tax authorities go to the registered offices of public companies, inspect the books, and occupy the time of the officials of those companies, and, in addition, the officials of the companies has to supply information regarding the wages paid weekly and monthly. The supplying of all this information costs time and money. The traders do not complain. They may grumble, but they do not come to this House for redress. You are going to place one class of property in a special and privileged position. You are proposing to grant to one a favour which is denied to another. I will later quote some further words of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, on 19th June last, thought that this information would be of value. This is what he said speaking on the last day of the Committee stage:
    "Holding, as I do, the views rather in accordance with those of the Mover of the Clause, it would be highly improper for me, having been in office for only about three weeks to attempt to make such a great alteration as this, which would have a very
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    real effect upon the activities of the Land Valuation Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1923; col. 1362, Vol. 165.]
    Then he went on to say:
    "If these returns are not made, it will certainly very much alter the work of the Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1923; col. 1363, Vol. 165.]
    I agree. And what will be the result? The landowners will escape their fair share of taxation, and, having escaped their fair share of taxation, that share will fall on the shoulders of other taxpayers. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham, speaking on 14th July, 1920, said:
    "It is the obligation that wherever the sale of land . … takes place, the particulars of it shall be made known to the Valuation Department and recorded at Somerset House. That is the part of the Act which has been invaluable in assisting public authorities."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1920; col. 2435, Vol. 131.]
    Further on in the same speech he said that the information was "really valuable." Those were carefully chosen words by a former Chancellor of the Exchequer. There are also some figures relating to the price of land bought by public authorities which have had the assistance of the Valuation Department. I find that the ex-Minister of Health (Dr. Addison) in 1920 was asked this question:
    "If he would state the total savings to date to the public on the purchase of land for housing purposes, due to the assistance rendered by the Land Valuation Department to local authorities."
    The Minister of Health, on 12th July, 1920, replied:
    "According to the information available, the total saving up to 30th June, 1920, in the cases where the valuers have settled the prices by agreement, after negotiation, is £1,305,000, or an average reduction of £71 per acre and a total reduction of £1,500,000."
    That is the result of an efficient Valuation Department at Somerset House. If this Clause remains in the Finance Bill, Somerset House officials will be unable, according to the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, to perform their duties efficiently and with due regard to the public interest. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the information was invaluable. It was valuable to the public, for it enabled the public to secure land at reasonable prices, and it forced the landowners to lower their prices to the extent of £1,500,000. Valuable undoubtedly it was to the people in the

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    constituencies who are suffering to-day from overcrowding, and who through the Valuation Department have been enabled to secure land for houses at more reasonable prices. If the Amendment is not carried, there will be a Valuation Department, I agree, but it will be a Valuation Department stripped of its ability to check from day to day the actual prices paid for land according to the information supplied to the Department from sales throughout the country. On every platform and at most street corners in the country to-day, property and the rights of property are being challenged. The financial difficulties of the time have made our people question every Act of Parliament, and question the rights of this House. If the Prime Minister were present I would say to him, "Is this the moment to raise a cry of further injustice?" It is quite apparent that if the Amendment is not carried landlords will gain and the Exchequer will suffer. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] For my authority I quote the words of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham.
    Sir F. BANBURY: He made a mistake.
    Sir G. COLLINS: Now we are told that when a Chancellor of the Exchequer comes to this House and makes a carefully prepared statement after consultation with the officials of his Department, he makes a mistake. Is the word of a British Minister to be trusted in future? I have never doubted the word of a Minister. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham was dealing with actual facts, and speaking with inside knowledge, having been posted up with that knowledge by the officials of his Department. These are his words, as I have said:
    "For this purpose it is essential that the system under which particulars of sales and leases of land are reported to the Inland Revenue should be continued in order that the Department may have the fullest information . …"
    Hon. Members may differ from the judgment of officials of the Inland Revenue Department. They may be able to say that the information supplied by these officials is of no use for the purpose. But that is not the judgment of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Major PAGET: That was three years ago.
    Sir G. COLLINS: Whether three years ago or to-day, his remark applies at the moment, because he was referring to the particulars of the sales, and it does not matter whether the statement was made three years ago or to-day or whether it applies to the future. I submit this is a practice which has equity to justify it, and which, as the experience of a Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown, reveals to the public the necessity of laying the burden on the proper shoulders. Therefore the House would be well advised, even at this late moment, to reverse the former decision which was taken after a very short Debate. This Government came into power to secure tranquillity. They are going the way of all Conservative Governments in giving concessions to the landed interests. During this Session we have witnessed a Bill to subsidise or rather to relieve the rates on agricultural owners in the country. That is their policy; they stand for the landed interests. In addition to that, the Financial Secretary has announced concessions to house property owners, and the total concessions during the last six months amount to £4,250,000. These are concessions, very grateful no doubt to hon. Members on the opposite side, but there are those outside this House who are confronted with unemployment, whose taxes are high and who have no well-organised force whereby to bring their case before this House and before the Cabinet. This particular demand was raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for South Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) in a good-humoured speech, and he little expected that it would be passed that night. Now it is being pressed upon us, and, no doubt, the Government will come forward to-night and vote us down in the Division Lobby. They will say, no doubt with the support of their followers, "Hands off the land of this country." They will refuse to grant to the taxing authority accurate information to enable the taxing authority to place the burden equally as between one class of the community and another. They are going to deny to local authorities the power to purchase land at reasonable prices, and they are going to deny to the Inland Revenue knowledge of the facts.
    Sir W. DAVISON: What is the use of a valuation which is five years old?
    Sir G. COLLINS: What of the sales which have taken place this year? Is information about the sales which are taking place day by day, about the 400,000 or 500,000 sales referred to the other night—is this information not to go to the inland Revenue authorities to allow of the taxation being based on a true valuation of the country. This is no small matter. Millions of money are involved, and I submit—and I commend this to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury)—that when experience shows the necessity for that information, when equity demands that such figures and knowledge should be revealed to the taxing authorities of the State, then now, in 1923, when property and the rights of property are being challenged at every corner, even the owners of land would be well advised to come out into the open and reveal to the taxing authority the proper price of their land.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I am very glad to have an opportunity of seconding this Amendment which has been so ably submitted to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins). I can well understand the hilarity with which some passages of his speech have been received by hon. Members opposite. They are enjoying an unexpected triumph, and I should be the last to rob them in the slightest degree of any enjoyment which may thereby fall to their lot. I shall not comment this evening on the somewhat unfortunate circumstances—I do not think they would be altogether pleasing from their point of view—in which they secured their initial victory on the Committee stage. To-day we have an opportunity of discussing the matter fully. We can enter into all the merits on both sides of this controversy and, having heard the merits, I do not think there is much doubt as to what hon. Gentlemen opposite will do. They have made up their minds. The great majority of them who were in the last Parliament are going to give votes exactly opposite to the votes which they gave in that Parliament. If they were then voting according to their consciences, if their votes were then founded on sound arguments and just principles, those Members who were in the late Parliament are going to give votes to-day which are
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    founded on contrary principles. They cannot get out of it.
    Major PAGET: Do circumstances never change?
    Mr. PRINGLE: Oh yes, they do. Circumstances change and hon. Gentlemen opposite have now ceased to show any gratitude to the late Prime Minister, but I will deal with that point later. This is an interesting stage in a very old controversy. It revives memories of, shall we say,
    "Old unhappy, far off things,
    And battles long ago."
    It reminds us that the taxation and the valuation of land were great innovations in the Budget of 1909. It was because of those great innovations that a very prominent statesman, Lord Rosebery, described that Budget as "the end of all things," and it was because of that revolutionary change also, that the House of Lords, in a moment of infatuation, and under the inspiration of hon. Gentlemen opposite, rejected the Budget and so rushed headlong down the steep place into the sea. At any rate, it resulted in the Parliament Act. I can well understand that hon. Gentlemen opposite have painful memories of that controversy. They remember clearly how they lost two General Elections over it, and how their last fortress in the British constitution has been practically destroyed.
    Colonel NEWMAN: Where is the Liberal party now?
    Mr. PRINGLE: The hon. and gallant Gentleman, who is a Member for one of the Northern Divisions of the Metropolitan area, but who is otherwise somewhat difficult to identify, wants to know where the Liberal party is now. I will put another question to him. How much was his majority reduced in 1922 from 1918 and, if the same rate of reduction goes on, where will he be at the next General Election? That is an illustration of the folly of putting stupid questions in relation to the transient vicissitudes of political life. All I have to say is this, that, as a result of the action which hon. Members opposite are taking to-day, it will be interesting to see where the Tory party will be at the next Election. I may now resume my historical disquisition. I was reminding hon. Members opposite of somewhat unhappy experiences in the past which are

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    associated with this valuation. It is perfectly true that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) at that time provoked them. He made speeches at Limehouse and other places and those speeches had the desired effect. The right hon. Gentleman did, undoubtedly, represent the taxation and valuation proposals, which he then put forward, as the beginning of the millenium which he was then advocating. It was part of the prospectus. We were then regaled with stories of the rare and refreshing fruit which was to come to the parched lips of humanity as they went along the dusty paths of life. Undoubtedly, the proposal in the Budget then may be represented as the plant which was to produce the fruit. Unfortunately, in 1920, the Government of the day decided to get rid of the taxes, so that the plant was lopped of its branches and, of course, there was then some difficulty about the fruit. The plant, however, still remains, and it is the important thing, and I am glad to believe that the right hon. Gentleman is coming down to the Debate this afternoon in order to defend the plant—the plant without its branches. I am sometimes mystified by this imagery, but I am doing my best with my plain Scottish language.
    We resume the historical discourse at 1920. At that time, it is true, the taxes which caused so much alarm to hon. Members opposite were abandoned. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced a proposal in the Finance Bill of that year, which repealed the duties, but, in repealing the duties, he expressly and of design retained the valuation. There can be no suggestion as to that, being an accidental decision. It was a decision taken on grounds of principle and of public policy, which the right hon. Gentleman then defended on the ground of public policy, and for which the majority of hon. Members opposite voted on grounds of public policy. There is a further interesting stage in this controversy which I do not think has been alluded to in the course of the Debate this afternoon. In the Session of 1919 there was a Bill before Parliament called the Acquisition of Land Bill. That Bill, among other purposes, was designed to facilitate the acquisition of land for public
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    purposes, and to provide for fairer valuations when public authorities and Government Departments desired to purchase land. In connection with that Bill no question arose as to the functions of this Valuation Department. There was no question, at that time, of abolishing the Department at all. Nobody in the whole course of the Debates on that Bill suggested that the Department should be abolished, or that it was not performing a useful public work.
    6.0 P.M.
    My right hon. Friend who was then Member for Peebles, Sir Donald Maclean, moved an Amendment on the Report stage of that Bill for the purpose of laying down a criterion for the assessment of compensation, and that was the return made for rating or taxation by the person whose land was to be purchased. That produced a very interesting Debate, and among others who supported the proposal was Lord Carson, or Sir Edward Carson, as he then was, who said:
    "I was in a few of these compensation cases when I was a Law Officer. It is 13 years since I first brought before the Government of that day the enormous extravagance incurred where land was assessed when taken for public purposes, and the enormously unfair sums that were given on many occasions."—[OFFICTAL REPORT, 25th June, 1919; col. 187, Vol. 117.]
    It was to prevent these enormous sums of compensation being paid that at that time, when the Bill was passed, the Government was forced in the long run to accept provisions in relation to thin question of returns for rating and taxation. Sir Donald Maclean's Amendment was:
    "And such valuation shall be based upon any returns and assessments for taxation made or acquiesced in by the claimant during the preceding three years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June, 1919; col. 257, Vol. 117.]
    It is quite true that the Amendment was not accepted in exactly that form, but in order to conciliate the Opposition in the House at that time, which was not confined to the Liberal and Labour Benches, but which, as I have shown, came from Unionist Benches, the introduction of the machinery of the Valuation Department was suggested. This was the Amendment which was proposed by the present Lord Chief Justice, then Sir Gordon Hewart:
    "Provided always that regard shall be had to all returns and assessments for taxation made on or acquiesced in by the

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    claimant during the three years next preceding the assessment for compensation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June, 1919; col. 287, Vol. 117.]
    That includes any return for the purposes of land valuation, and this was to be one of the criteria. It is a statutory requirement for the purpose of land valuation. You are going to abolish by this new Clause a statutory requirement which was imposed by the last Parliament and the last Government, of which the right hon. Members opposite were Members or supporters. The right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has committed himself in this case. He usually has a good memory, but he has forgotten in this case that he actually wished to emphasise the reference to the Valuation Department.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I made a Report on it. I was Chairman of a Committee which made a Report, I think, in 1919, and if the hon. Member reads that Report, I am prepared to abide by what I said in it.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I want to point out that the right hon. Baronet then proposed an Amendment to the Amendment of Sir Gordon Hewart, and proposed that after the word "taxation" there should be inserted the words "or capital value." What was the effect of that? It was that regard should be had to any returns of capital value, which could only mean the returns contemplated under this Clause.
    Sir ERNEST POLLOCK: The reference made in that Statute was to all returns, Schedule A, and a great number of other returns, and the object of the Bill was to remove the compulsory 10 per cent. which had previously been given to land and also any specific valuation which arose in respect of land owing to it being used for a public purpose. That was the point of the Statute.
    Mr. PRINGLE: My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Sir E. Pollock) is quite accurate in saying that returns for Schedule A were to be taken into account also, but they were not the only things, as the whole course of that Debate shows. I could quote references to the Land Valuation Department in that Debate. In the speech of Sir Gordon Hewart, and the very fact that the right hon. Member
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    for the City of London wished to introduce specifically the words "or capital value' shows that they had in view returns made in connection with the land valuation, because returns of capital value are not made under Schedule A. The Amendment which the right hon. Member for the City of London proposed was for the specific purpose of making it clear that returns made under the Finance Act of 1909–10 should be a basis for the purpose of valuation when land was being acquired by local authorities or by Government Departments, and the only reason why that Amendment was not accepted was that it was unnecessary, being already included in the Amendment proposed by the then Attorney-General. Consequently, the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the ex-Attorney-General, the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington, cannot now say that the House was not legislating in 1919 clearly for the purpose of continuing the Land Valuation Department because of its usefulness and, indeed, its necessity, in order to secure fair prices for public authorities when they were acquiring land. I have, I think, established my case. A Division was taken at that time, but only a very small number of the Opposition voted against the particular Amendment. Nearly everybody supported it, and I do not think even the right hon. Member for the City of London voted against it.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I have that Report now. We recommended that the work described under Category "A" should be continued, and that was

    "(a) Valuation of all real estate and leaseholds passing on death for purposes of Death Duties.

    (b) Valuation of real estate comprised in voluntary conveyances for purposes of Stamp Duty.

    (c) Valuation of real estate and leaseholds belonging to applicants for old age pensions."

    On this, I may mention that for the year ending 31st March, 1918, there were 3,966 cases of Old Age Pensions valuation, and the capital value certified by the Valuation Department was £1,168,110. I continue:
    "(d) Determination of compensation for the extinction of redundant liquor licences in cases referred for decision to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.
    (e) Determination of annual licence values and monopoly values in connection with licensed premises.

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    (f) Generally advising Government Departments on the values of property for purposes of purchasing, leasing, letting, or sale, and supply of information to these Departments.
    (g) Work under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. This will probably increase as the working of the Act becomes more widely known."
    That was what we recommended, and the date of that Report is 29th July, 1920. We further recommended:
    "That the officials of the Department should not be chosen to act as arbitrators in matters affecting their own Department and that an appeal should be allowed on the question of costs. They are of opinion that arbitrators should be chosen by agreement between the parties, and, failing agreement, by an outside body."
    Mr. PRINGLE: I am very much interested in what the right hon. Baronet has quoted, but I question, following it as I have been able to follow it, whether these recommendations justify the whole proposal which is in this Clause. I do not think they go so far as that. As I understood the recommendations which were read out by the right hon. Baronet, they simply contemplated certain reductions and modifications, but not complete abolition, and that is the whole point. If my right hon. Friend suggests that his Report justifies complete abolition, I cannot understand why he took the trouble to read all those recommendations, which, as I understood them, suggested reductions and modifications, but not abolition. Even on that basis, the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time did not accept fully those recommendations. The Government at that time did not see its way to do so, and it had the support of the House of Commons, although I never put a great deal of stress on the opinion of the House of Commons. I maintain that I have established that under the Acquisition of Land Act a statutory duty was placed on the Valuation Department, which under this Clause is going to be abolished. I say that you have no means of performing that statutory duty, and that if that statutory duty be not performed, there is going to be a very serious loss, both to local authorities and to Government Departments. The hon. Member for Greenock has quoted the evidence already given as to the savings made in the acquisition of land for housing purposes. I believe that a case equally strong could be made in regard to the savings made in
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    respect of land acquired for other purposes, both by the Government and by local authorities.
    The right hon. Baronet's Committee is not the only Committee that has dealt with this matter. The right hon. Baronet was looking at this matter specially, I should say, from the point of view of expenditure, and I quite believe that he acted on sound principles in relation to public economy, but this question was investigated very fully by a Committee which was presided over by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott), a Committee which inquired into all matters relating to the acquisition of land, and it was on the Report of that Committee that the Acquisition of Land Act was founded. In the course of the Report of that Committee, there were express statements regarding the value of the Land Valuation Department; not only so, but as to the important results achieved by that Department when the Government was acquiring land during the War. I think the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs could bear witness to that. I have here the speech of the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool on 28th June, 1922. An hon. Member opposite poured contempt on the opinion of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, because it was given three years ago, but this is only a year ago, and this was the junior Law Officer of the late Government. I do not think the right hon. and learned Member for Warwick and Leamington would desire to say that the opinion which his colleague gave a year ago is no longer a sound opinion because a year has elapsed and because different people now sit on the Treasury Bench.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Exchange Division said:
    "In order that we may know what the value of land is it is very desirable that the Valuation Department and the Government should be in possession of the necessary information . …"
    How is it to be in possession of the necessary information unless it gets particulars of the transfers of land? There is no other way of doing it. The reason why hon. and right hon. Gentle men opposite want to suppress these particulars is to prevent the Government knowing what is the value of the land.
    "Before I deal with what is necessary by way of information for the Valuation

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    Department I want to say a word upon that Department. I had occasion to make a particular inquiry into the Valuation Department over a series of years. I came to this conclusion—I say it with all deliberation—that the Department to-day contains a very competent staff. . … During the War I had the privilege of acting as Chairman of a Committee appointed by the Prime Minister"—
    That is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)—
    "to consider a number of questions relating to the acquisition and valuation of land. It was upon one of the Reports of that Committee that the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, was based. … But in connection with these subjects of valuation and acquisition we made a close and critical inquiry into the work of the Valuation Department and of the work of the valuers of the Department, to see whether they were competent or not, and the unanimous testimony of the independent experts—we had three or four on my Committee—was that they did their work extremely well. I got similar evidence from several of the Departments, particularly the Admiralty and the War Office, and the result was that we came to a very strong conclusion that they were a very useful Department, and saved the public a good deal of money by the excellence of their valuations and the cheapness with which they were done. The Committee of National Expenditure, presided over by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir. F. Banbury) in their Fifth Report expressed approval of the Valuation Department, and that opinion was concurred in by the Geddes Committee."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th June, 1922; cols. 2145–6, Vol. 155.]
    Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham might have made a mistake three years ago, but this is last year. This is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. The statement is not that this Department is likely to save money or likely to do good; the statement is that it has saved money. If it has saved money in the past, it is likely to save money in the future, and if it is likely to save more money in the future, that is a reason why it should be maintained! We on this side of the House contend that it is because it is going to save public money in the future that it is going to be scrapped!
    Mr. D. HERBERT: On a point of 'Order. Are we discussing the valuation of land or the Valuation Department. I
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    thought we were doing nothing of the kind?
    Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Captain Fitzroy): The Question before the House is, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. HERBERT: Clause 27, as I understand it, does not by any means do away with the Land Valuation Department, but merely deals with the methods in regard to the registration of particulars of land value.
    Mr. PRINGLE: The hon. Gentleman would have been well advised not to make that interruption.
    Mr. HERBERT: Why?
    Mr. PRINGLE: For the simple reason that everybody knows that these words were left unrepealed in 1920 for the express purpose of retaining the Department, and because the retention of these words presented the only opportunity for work that the Department could do. I wish to point out that this question has been argued now, also in 1920, 1921 and in 1922, and on every occasion it has been argued on a basis that the repeal of these words would be fatal to the Department. It has been suggested that the Department was inefficient. The right hon. Baronet the Member for South Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) says that this Department costs £500,000—or perhaps it was £350,000?
    Sir W. BULL: I did not say anything of the kind. I said it cost between £10,000 and £15,000, which I got from an answer across the Floor of the House. The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite wrong.
    Mr. PRINGLE: The right hon. Gentleman, I remember, in celebrating his triumph on the Committee stage was led, in the effervescence of the moment, into giving an interview to the Press. That interview appeared in the "Evening News" on the day on which the Committee decided the matter. The right hon. Gentleman was not wanting his laurels to fade, and he was wanting his constituents to know the triumph he had won. He said by "this Amendment I have saved £350,000."
    Sir W. BULL: I did not.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Well, then, the right hon. Gentleman has been misreported and he has not disavowed it.
    Sir W. BULL: What I said was that this would save the country £500,000.
    Mr. PRINGLE: Oh! What is the country? We always understood when a man was talking about saving the country's money that he was talking about the public Treasury; that is how Members of Parliament ordinarily speak. Now, apparently, when the right hon. Gentleman speaks about the country he means the owners of land who have to make the returns. Here we see the cloven hoof. [An HON. MEMBER: "You will see the horns in a minute!"] Then we shall know exactly where the right hon. Gentleman stands. We shall know that he regards as principal constituents, whom he is here to represent, the owners of land who have small duties imposed upon them by this Section of the Finance Act of 1910 which he now seeks to repeal. The basis upon which this has been argued in the past, argued by both sides, and also in the Committee stage, is that this meant the end of the Department. If it does not, what does the Government mean? Do the Government mean to continue in spite of all? It is a very important thing. We ought to know once and for all whether they do mean to continue it, and if they intend to do it, is it to perform the statutory duties under the Acquisition of Land Act? If so, is it to be in a position to do it? It is only on the basis of information that the Department can perform these duties. If it does not have these returns it will not have the information, so that the Government are in a difficulty. But, first of all, have they abandoned the contention that this is a vital Department? If they answer that they intend to continue it, and if they intend to continue it, on what scale do they so intend, and secondly, if they intend to continue it, what do they expect it to do and how will it be equipped for doing it? These are the questions which I submit, and I suggest that it is absolutely essential that they should be answered on the present occasion. I regret that I have been led away because of the jeers of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen as to what happened three years ago.
    We had a Division last year. I find that the First Commissioner of Works
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    voted against this proposal. Is he going to vote for it to-night? The Minister of Labour voted against this proposal last year. Is he going to vote for it to-night? Yes, and the Patronage Secretary was a teller. Is he going to tell to-night? I find that on that occasion he was accompanied by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. McCurdy). That delightful companionship is broken. There is no doubt where the hon. Member for Northampton will be. I wonder where the Patronage Secretary will be? He is not going to desert the Carlton Club. Then the Home Secretary did the same thing. Where stands the Home Secretary now? Is he going to vote one way this year when he voted another way last year? This is only a year ago. There is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for West Bristol (Colonel Gibbs). He is in the Whips' Office. Then what about the Minister of Agriculture? In spite of all his bucolic sympathies he voted against this proposal last year. I wonder where they all are? By far the most delightful speech in the Debate was the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield). He tells you the facts. There is no sort of sophistry or subtlety about him. He voted last year as one who saw the end coming.
    "Of course, I am not surprised to see that unity of purpose prevailing between the learned Solicitor-General and the Opposition Bench."
    That is an allusion to the fact the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Exchange Division (Sir L. Scott) agreed with Sir Donald Maclean—
    "May it continue."
    A fervent prayer!
    "It is my surest evidence that the time must come when there must be a change here."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th June, 1922; col. 2149, Vol. 155.]
    So it goes on. It is the cloud no smaller than a man's hand. The hon. and learned Member for Ealing saw it in the distance. We thus have the people who voted the other way last year. Let us have some consistency in the House. Do not let it be said that simply because there is a change in Prime Ministers, because they have got rid of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), that they can now cast their shoe over all his work. Let them show a little more respect for the service which he has rendered, a little more

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    respect would at least be becoming. Do not let them do it in the first year he is out. Let there be a decent interval of mourning, or at least of half mourning!
    That is a question in which, both on the ground of public policy and on the ground of public decency and order, hon. Gentlemen opposite should show some self-respect. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was one of the men who insisted upon the Land Valuation Department being used for the purpose of the Land Acquisition Act. Not alone, but with Lord Carson. The hon. Gentleman has always been consistent in the past in the days when he sat on the back benches, either on this or on the other side of the House. He was always consistent. He was always a Die-hard. Let not this business corrupt him! There is also another hon. and gallant Gentleman who efficiently represents the Department of Mines in this House. He was in it. Last year the Minister of Education was another. Are they all going to give votes to-night diametrically opposed to those they gave on 28th June, 1922? That is the question. Yes, and the Prime Minister has been in this, too. I have the report here. They must not force the Prime Minister into such a position, for he is a plain, simple, honest man. He boasts himself of his simplicity that verges upon stupidity—or something like that! Is the country outside to find him voting one way to-night and another way on the 28th June of last year? Could they believe him guilty of such innocence? The whole reputation of this Government will be gone. We all know it has no brains, but let it at least have some morality. Let them vote as they voted before. I appeal to the Financial Secretary on this point because he has a clear record on the whole thing. He was in a position of greater freedom and less responsibility a year ago, and consequently he is able in this case to vote the same way as he did last year. In his impeccable purity let him have mercy on the weaker brethren. Do not force them into these terrible courses of inconsistency. On all these grounds I have much pleasure in seconding this Motion, and I trust right hon. Gentlemen opposite will be able to support it.
    Sir WILLIAM BULL: I have listened with much interest to the delightful
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    and witty speech which has been made by the hon. Member who has just sat down. Let me state at the outset that I have persistently brought this question to a Division in the House, and on three or four occasions I have warned the Whips of the Government that I intended carrying this matter to a Division, and in every case I have carried it to a Division. This is a matter of principle with me. The other night, when dealing with this question, I had only a very short time to speak as it was near 12 o'clock, and I was addressing a tired House. This is a very complicated question to ask a number of laymen to consider and understand, because it is so very difficult. On that occasion I only gave a few sentences, but I am now going to try and put the whole facts before the House in order that they may arrive at a reasonable conclusion in this matter.
    In the first place, I. wish to say that five-sixths of the lawyers in this country are in favour of the abolition of this Section. On this matter, I represent the Law Society, and other hon. Members also speak for the same society. Let me point out that the council of the Law Society have on more than one occasion come to the conclusion that this Section is useless and valueless, and is also a great detriment to the transfer of land. I will explain why that is so. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) said that I stated that this was saving £500,000 a year, and I will show hon. Members how that is the case. Practically, there are about 500,000 transfers of land every year, and under the present condition of affairs every solicitor for a vendor has to fill up the form, a copy of which I have in my hand. It is a form extending over four foolscap pages, and I will explain to the House what are the particulars required.
    In the first place you have to give a description of the instrument presented and the date of the instrument; the situation of the land; the county; parish or place and postal address, if any. You have also to give the identification number in the Valuation Book, if known. Part 3 of the form deals with the name, address, and description of each party, and the various considerations have to be set out in detail. It provides that the capacity in which the parties are concerned should be indicated by describing

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    them as "Vendor, Purchaser, Sub-Purchaser, Lessor, Lessee, Trustee, Mortgagee, etc." In Part 4 ("Consideration") the following particulars have to be fully given:

    "(a) Any capital payment or payments and to whom paid.

    (b) Is the land transferred free from any mortgage or other debt? If not, state whether the liability for the mortgage or debt passes to the transferee, and the amount of the mortgage or debt.

    (c) Any periodical payment (rent charges, etc.) in the case of the grant or assignment of a lease, see also No. 14.

    (d) Any term surrendered. Any land surrendered or transferred. Covenants to redeem charges or to make any outlay on or in respect of the property whether upon buildings or otherwise, and any other consideration, including reference to any law suit, or dispute, compromise, etc.

    (e) Whether any additional consideration is paid for timber or landlord's fixtures, and, if so, the amount thereof."

    Part 5 deals with parcels, and the description must be sufficient in conjunction with the plan, if any, to enable the situation and boundaries of the land to be precisely identified, and should include the dimensions, when given in the instrument. In the case of a building plot, either a plan must be submitted, or the measurements from some fixed and readily ascertainable point must be given. Part 6 deals with the plan, and a copy of any plan necessary for the identification of the property should be furnished. Part 7 deals with

    "(a) Short particulars, stating whether the fee simple is passing, or, if not, what interest (e.g., an undivided moiety of a fee simple, etc.) is passing. In the case of the grant or assignment of a lease, the particulars of the lease should be entered on page 4.

    (b) Particulars (including term, rent reserved, and any power of renewal) of any outstanding lease to which the interest passing is subject. (If the lease is a lease for lives the date of birth of the youngest life should be stated."

    There are not many more—[HON. MEMBERS: "Circulate it!"]—and I will read them, because I want the House to fully understand what the filling up of this form really means, and hon. Members will not understand it unless they hear the particulars. Part 8 deals with Exceptions and Reservations. It states that these should be set out particularly where minerals, sporting rights, timber, easements, etc., may be reserved. Part 9
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    deals with covenants by the purchaser or lessee so far as they affect the amount of the consideration for the sale or lease, namely, to build or improve property, or to form, make, maintain or contribute towards cost of roads, should be briefly recited. Part 10 deals with restrictions, and any restriction whatever which may be considered to affect the market value of the interest created or transferred should be set out, including:

    "(a) Building restrictions.

    (b) Building line, position of.

    (c) Any restrictions as to user of premises (e.g., a covenant to use for only one trade in the case of business premises, or to use as a private dwelling only in a business neighbourhood, or not to convert into a shop without payment of a fine)."

    Under Part 11 additional particulars are dealt with, and
    "a statement should be given of any easements, rights of way or common, public rights in or under the land, quit rents, rentcharges (including apportioned or reapportioned tithe rentcharge), or other incidents of tenure, which (whether specified in the instrument or not) may be considered to affect the market value."
    Part 12 provides for the names and addresses of the solicitor and the surveyor. Particulars required as to Leaseholds are
    "date of commencement of term, term granted, any powers of renewal or extension, and any powers to determine. All rents reserved should be stated, also annuities, dower, existing rentcharges, and apportioned rentcharges, peppercorn rents, abated rents or penalties."
    Information required with regard to other covenants include:

    "(a) Who pays outgoings.

    (b) Who repairs or maintains property.

    (c) Who insures, and, if disclosed in the instrument, for what amount are premises insured or to be insured?"

    That form has to be signed with the following declaration:—
    "I (or we) hereby certify that the above statements are true and correct to the best of my (or our) knowledge and belief."
    I apologise to the House for going so much into detail. I said that there were about 500,000 transfers in the course of a year, and that has not been disputed. Before the War there were about 210,000 transfers in one year, and I think that was 1912, but in 1922 the number was 488,000. I ask hon. Members whether I was exaggerating when I said that it was fair to say that a charge for filling up that form was not immoderate if the solicitor

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    charged one guinea for filling it up. We have evidence in the Law Society that £27 was charged in one case and 20 guineas in another. I have here cases where £1 11s. 6d., £2 2s., £3 3s. and other sums were charged where these particulars had to be obtained for the Valuation Department, and therefore I think I was justified in saying that we were saving the owners of land, and those interested in land, the payment on the average of one guinea for each of these forms, or £500,000 a year. The hon. Member for Penistone got rather mixed in his facts on this point with regard to my statement that this was saving £500,000 a year, and when I read the article which he quoted from the newspaper I did not see anything unfair in my statement. I also pointed out that between £10,000 and £15,000 was the sum paid in salaries in connection with the officials of the Land Valuation Department dealing with these forms. If 500,000 forms are received it takes a large staff to deal with them, and file and card index them, and put them in proper order so that they may be ready for use by other Departments. Why is it that the lawyers of this country are against this form? In the first instance, it is because they do not believe that all this trouble is of any value, because after four or five years have elapsed the information cannot be of any value, and therefore for any Department to rely on the information contained in these forms after the lapse of a number of years is wholly illusory.
    Then there is another important point. I am not at all certain whether the State is entitled to have this information. Why should the State be in a better position with regard to this particular matter than any ordinary person? I do not see why it should, especially when it is being done, not at the cost of the State, but at the cost of the unfortunate landlord who is selling his property. The landlord cannot part with his property until he gets the "I.V.D." stamp on his deed, and he is precluded from having the money handed over until he can produce the stamp of the duty with the letters "I.V.D." upon it. I would like to mention another point in this connection. Everybody is anxious to make the transfer of land as easy and cheap as possible. There is this serious point to consider in connection with this matter,
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    that very often great delay occurs by reason of this "I.V.D." form. I have a letter in which the Department in one case apologizes for the delay which occurred, the Law Society having complained of the delays which had taken place. Transactions have been held up for days and even weeks because the Department was so busy that it could not complete the matter. For all these reasons a large body of lawyers in this country came to the conclusion that this form was unnecessary. Originally it was not proposed for this purpose; it had nothing whatever to do with it, but was used for it afterwards. In the first instance it was part of the late Prime Minister's scheme of land valuation, a very big scheme. It was a reasonable form for that purpose, but when the whole scheme of land valuation was swept away we, in the Law Society, came to the conclusion that the form was absolutely unnecessary. Therefore for three or four years I have divided the House against it.
    I say the form is wholly needless and ought to be swept away. I have had cases in my own office, I quoted one the other night, in which a lady bought a house in the West End of London. I told her the price asked was absurd, as it was a very short lease, but she insisted on making the purchase against my advice. She died, and when the estate was wound up I put a smaller value on the house. It was pointed out that a much larger sum had been paid for it and that whereas I had valued it at hundreds, thousands had been paid for it. I stood by my own figures, and, shortly afterwards, the house was put up to auction. It certainly realised £200 or £300 more than my valuation, but it did not reach the thousands of pounds which had been given for it. That is the kind of case where the Department might easily be misled by merely reading the form. It has occurred in hundreds of cases that special prices have been given for land. A man may wish to round up his estate by purchasing a small outlying corner belonging to another estate and for sentimental or other reasons he may be willing to give an immensely high price for it. He may consider himself quite justitfied in doing that, but I suggest that this form does not necessarily convey a true idea of the value of the property.

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    I have no complaints against the Valuation Department at all. That was quite a red herring drawn across the path of the House by the hon. Member for Penistone. The Department has carried out its work on the information it has received, and, therefore, it is absurd to say we complain of it as such. I do not think the Department need be abolished; there is other work for it to do. I should be very sorry if the very worthy staff of officials were turned adrift upon the world by any action of mine. We are out for economy, and we shall be economising by taking away these forms. The Department, however, will not necessarily be swept away. Other work can be found for it. The decision the House came to the other night will effect an economy of £15,000 a year so far as the work is concerned, and people who transfer land will also be saved a sum of something like £500,000 a year. The time was when we thought the speculative builder was a person to be condemned. Now we have come to the conclusion he is a benefactor, and ought to be encouraged in every possible way, because if we can only get him busy he will provide work for large numbers of people, including solicitors, surveyors, architects, plumbers and painters and scores of other handicraftsmen, and at the same time we shall be solving the housing problem. I speak very rarely, but I feel very strongly on this matter, and I thank the House for the patient way they have listened to me.
    The SOLICITOR - GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip): The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) in his delightful speech—if I may venture so to term it—asked a question which it would appear convenient that someone on behalf of the Government should attempt to answer at the earliest moment. Perhaps before I give that answer I may recall the circumstances under which the decision, which it is sought now to reverse was made by the House. It was after a speech by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary that hon. Gentlemen opposite thought it wise to challenge and force a Division—I think with the admitted object of compelling hon. Gentlemen on this side If the House, such as the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) to make an unpleasant choice between voting against the Government or against their predilections. That manœuvre, if it were
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    A manœuvre, was defeated by what took place. The hon. Member for Penistone has referred to the unexpected triumph of the Government.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I referred to the unexpected triumph of the Government on the ground that the Government asked their supporters to go into the Lobby.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I venture to think that what occurred was a triumph—whether it was unexpected or not—of candour and common sense, when the supporters of the Government reached the decision at which they did arrive. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Sir William Bull) has put before the House the real substance of the question which the House has to consider. The entertaining exploration which the hon. Member for Penistone made into the Debates of last year, and of preceding years, had, of course, its use from his point of view. No one is more capable of disinterring the dead bones of debate than the hon. Member for Penistone, but while he is grubbing in the OFFICIAL REPORT we will try to get to the realities of the situation. Section 4 of the Finance Act of 1910, which is now in question, was part and parcel of the legislation with which the name of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is associated in connection with the taxation of land. It was chiefly, of course, in connection with the Increment Value Duty that it was thought desirable that the Land Valuation Department should have the information which my right hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith has retailed to the House. There was a specially devised and somewhat elaborate machinery, with the assistance of rules, which might be made use of for securing that information, but it was a machinery Section purely and solely and it had no other object except to facilitate the collection of the duties imposed under the Finance Act. In 1920, under circumstances which we all know of, a number of these duties were repealed. It was thought by a great many people that when the duties were repealed, the machinery Section for collecting them might have been repealed also, in as much as the principal object of the group of Sections was gone. Perhaps, however, one Section was left in order that we might retain a memory

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    of them. The hon. Member for Penistone, or it may be the hon. Gentleman who introduced this Amendment, asked us whether there was any gratitude left for the great achievements of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. Perhaps it was purely out of gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman that Section 4 was left unamended in order that it might be retained as a monument of his great achievement. Whether or not that was the object of leaving the Section on the Statute Book—in order that the right hon. Gentleman's name might never perish in this connection—I do not know, but what was done in 1920 by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) was certainly not more than to say that the Government had decided to continue the Department in its present form. I have an extract from my right hon. Friend's speech here. He says:
    "I therefore propose to continue that Department (the Land Valuation Department) in its present form. In our view it is essential there should be a thoroughly equipped and skilled State Valuation Department, whose services would be available for the House and the Government."
    We were asked in somewhat dramatic terms by the hon. Member whether after that declaration of the intentions of the Government, and in view of what occurred the other night, the word of a Minister can ever be trusted. I shall take leave to trust the word of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham even although I do go into the Lobby against the Motion of the hon. Member for Greenock (Sir G. Collins). It seems to me that the statement of the Minister had nothing on earth to do with the question we are here considering. The right hon. Gentleman was Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Government of which the Prime Minister was the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. It was perhaps not altogether surprising that the decision to retain the Department in its present form should have been arrived at. What is the position to day? Surely it is not fair because that, decision was arrived at in 1920 by a Coalition Government and a certain Prime Minister that in 1923 with a different Government, and with possibly the unwisdom of the decision being a little more apparent, a different conclusion should be reached, or that the supporters
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    of the Government should arrive at a different conclusion. It cannot be surely that there is as the hon. Member for Greenock suggested, any question of good faith in this matter at all. We have arrived at a decision to which we propose to adhere after an examination of the circumstances connected with the original enactment and of the events that took place in 1920.
    7.0 P.M.
    The hon. Member for Penistone asks, "What do you now intend to do with the Government Valuation Department?" I think he was under a singular misapprehension, as the right hon. Member for Hammersmith pointed out, when he spoke about the demolition of the Department. The Department will exist to-day to do the work it is charged to do as it existed yesterday before the Vote was taken. Its duties are to make valuations in connection with the Death Duties, in connection with purchase and sale or leasing of land by Government Departments, to make valuations in connection with the payment of compensation under the Licensing Laws, and to make valuations for other purposes. The Department will have precisely the same duties to perform, and they will have precisely the same obligation to inform themselves about the real value of the land as they had before, and they will have precisely the same channels open to them for discovering facts as to the value of land as other valuers have. [HON. MEMBER "Ah!"] They will be able to obtain from these professional gentlemen, with whom they are in perfectly cordial relations, the facts relating to the value of property, so that they will be up-to-date on every occasion on which their opinion is required. What is the value of a figure which is recorded in the books of the Valuation Department, and which possibly has become absolutely obsolete in consequence of the alteration of land values or an alteration in the value of money? These dead records are mere waste paper unless they can be checked or confirmed by living, up-to-date figures, which, in any case, the Department must be charged to obtain. Under the law as it will be if this Clause remains in the Bill, the Land Valuation Department will be charged to obtain the same information as every other valuer obtains. Nobody will tell me, with any chance of convincing me, that the valuers, who are engaged in transferring property every

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    day, in hearing the evidence of other people, and reading what happens about the change of values, are not better able to find out the real value of property from their experience than by burying their noses in stale and dusty records of probably long-forgotten transactions. That is the reality of the situation. The question to-day is, whether we shall maintain the Section which the House repealed the other day by a free vote? When we are faced with that question, we ask ourselves, for what purpose shall we retain it? I hope I have done something, at any rate, to answer the question as to what the duties of the Department will be, what the sources of its information in future will be. If that be so, the only question remaining is that to which I referred just now—namely, whether we can, with loyalty to those who led us in 1920, take that course. I say that we can with perfect loyalty, not only to them but to our own convictions and opinions. There is a time for everything. There is
    "A time to break down and a time to build up."
    Dr. SALTER: We shall remember that!
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: The only difference between ourselves and hon. Members opposite is that they are always looking backward while we are looking forward. Some hon. Members opposite, and especially those associated with the hon. and learned Member for Penistone, are persuaded that it is only they who are looking forward. What, then, is the meaning of all that diving into the OFFICIAL REPORT to discover opinions expressed three or four years ago? [HON. MEMBERS: "Last year!"] We are concerned with considering what the situation of the moment requires, with money that should be saved to the taxpayer and the citizen, and it is because we believe that the objects aimed at by Section 4 of the Act of 1909 can be achieved at less cost and with the same efficiency that we propose to adhere to the decision at which the House arrived a week ago.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The learned Solicitor-General has set up a very remarkable defence for the action of the Government. He defended the inconsistency of those who voted last year against the repeal of the section in the Finance Act by saying that there is a time for building up and a time for pulling down. The time for building up, clearly in his
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    judgment, was the time when the late Government was in power, and the time for pulling down is the time when there is a Conservative. Government in power. It is an extraordinary definition of the policy of a Conservative Government. I agree with him in one thing, namely, that the fact that a vote has been recorded in favour of a particular proposition a year or two ago is not conclusive if there is fresh light cast on the subject by subsequent events. I should like to know the new facts. If there are any, they have not been revealed by the learned Solicitor-General. He did not attempt to defend the action of the Government. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) did make a case which, from a solicitor's point of view, I can well understand. I daresay the guinea fee is inadequate to the worry and trouble of preparing this particular document, and I can understand him not wanting to be bothered with it, especially if he knows that at some time or another he may have to prepare his estate account in respect of the same property. It is a little embarrassing to have a document of this kind registered in a Government Department. The learned Solicitor-General never put up any defence at all. I was glad to hear from him that there is no proposal to abolish the Valuation Department, that that remains. That is a very valuable admission on the part of the Government.
    Before I come to the actual proposition before the House, I should like to say one word with regard to what has fallen in the Debate from both sides of the House. The Valuation Department was set up in 1910.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: I am sorry to interrupt, but I think I should recall to the right hon. Gentleman's mind that the Valuation Department was set up a year before 1910. It was only expanded in 1910, a very material point.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I accept the correction, but it is immaterial to my point. I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for reminding me, but it makes no difference to the purpose of my argument. There was a valuation of the whole of the real property in this Kingdom. There were 7,750,000 tenements valued. It is the first valuation of the land of this Kingdom which has been set

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    up for centuries. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), who helped me to carry this Measure through, reminds me, it is the first since Doomsday, an invaluable effort. I have heard the right hon. Gentleman himself say in this House that he had nothing to say against the qualifications of the men who valued that property. They were about as able men as could be gathered together. Lord Chalmers was responsible for their selection, and therefore I am free to say that I think his choice was one which does great credit to his judgment. I have never heard in the course of the many Debates in this House any challenge of the efficiency of that Department. There is no Department which has been attacked in the way that Department has been attacked in respect to the principle that underlies it, but never has there been a single word of criticism of the qualifications of the men engaged, the efficiency of their work, nor of the fact that their valuation in accordance with the principles laid down was fair and just. That valuation stands.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: No.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That valuation stands. It is there: it is on record. Then came the question of keeping it up to date. One method of doing that was by means of valuation for taxes. As I have never had an opportunity in this House, perhaps hon. Members will allow me to say one word about that. The taxes were disappointing. I say so at once. The reason was a perfectly obvious one. Qualifications were introduced before the taxes were ever introduced in this House, which I regretted very much. But, after all, a matter of that kind is always a question of compromise. The taxes were new in their character, they were very bold in their original conception, and it was difficult to get the scheme in its original purity introduced in the House of Commons. [Laughter.] I think the time will come probably when it will be done. When we came to the House we had to encounter, I think, the most strenuous and pertinacious opposition to which any taxes were ever subjected. The criticism was not confined to the Conservative side of the House, I say at once. There was a very formidable body of criticism on our own side, and that is always more difficult to deal with, because
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    it means criticism, not only in the House, but you encounter it in the Division Lobby and by other means. The result was that all sorts of qualifications, exceptions and extensions were introduced so that at the end there was no doubt at all that from the point of view of profit the taxes were hardly worth preserving. They were only valuable for the purpose of justifying a valuation, and for that purpose they were admirably conceived because if the valuation was too high the half-penny caught them, and if the valuation was too low the increment tax caught them; so that between one and the other we had a perfectly honest valuation. I have never heard the integrity or honesty of that valuation challenged in this House in any Debate, but I agree with my right hon. Friend who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer that, from the point of view of revenue, it was not worth while keeping the taxes going; but he agreed, and so did every Member of that Government—and there are many of them sitting there—that it was worth while keeping up the other machinery which created a body of evidence that could be valuable in future with regard to the property of this country.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for South Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) said there were 500,000 transactions a year. That is a strong case for not repealing that particular Section. Five hundred thousand per annum. There are 7,750,000 tenements. It does not really mean that in 15 years all the property of this Kingdom is transferred, but it means something pretty near it. So you have not the stale records referred to by the learned Solicitor-General—you might have thought he was referring to the days of Queen Anne—these are fresh transactions occurring from year to year, bringing the valuation up to date, with a record of the money that has passed in respect of these properties. What is the value of property? The value of property is the price you would get for it, and what better test of the value of property can you get than the money that has actually passed in respect of it? My right hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith said, and it is perfectly true, that sometimes a man or a woman may give a fancy price for a property, but that is no proof of its real value. These valuers, however, are quite capable of discriminating between what is a fancy price and

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    what is a real value, and I am perfectly certain that my hon. Friend had no difficulty. There is a gap in his story. He said he had to persuade the Death Duties Department that the thousands of pounds which had been paid for the property did not represent the real value. I am sure it did not. At any rate, I take his silence—
    Sir W. BULL: We had it tested by a public auction shortly afterwards.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not see why he should complain about that. I have no doubt at all that there would be no difficulty if a solicitor said, "This is a fancy price that was paid in respect of this property. It does not represent its real value in the least. This lady took a fancy to it, and she was prepared to pay thousands for it" The valuer will go there, and my hon. Friend knows that these valuers are men of experience. They do not put extravagant valuations upon property, and that is why the valuations are so valuable when you come to buy property for the public. They put on the real value. I remember perfectly well when that valuation was being made. I remember going round with the valuers, and on one occasion, when the valuer came to a part of the country that I knew well, I said to him, "Would you mind valuing this property?" He said, "The first thing you have to get into your mind is that the money which has been spent upon it is not in the least any indication of its real value." I told him all the money that had been spent upon it. They then proceeded to value it, and their value was absolutely accurate; I had the test of it later. Therefore, these valuations are useful, but these transactions which are recorded from year to year are helpful to the valuers.
    My hon. Friend read a document, which he said covered three or four pages of foolscap, and he said, "How can an ordinary layman answer that?" I listened very carefully to that document, and it is a much simpler document than an Income Tax return. I defy any ordinary layman to answer fully all the questions that are put there. It is even a simpler document than the document which is prepared for Death Duties. I do not know how many of those are filled in in the course of a year. I also noticed that the great majority of the questions
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    put had no reference to the ordinary transactions that take place. They are supposed to cover every sale of property. Let me take one or two of the cases that my hon. Friend quoted. There were questions with regard to public rights of way and with regard to mining royalties; but to the vast majority of the 500,000 cases to which he referred these questions would have no reference at all, and an ordinary clerk, going through this document, would say, "There is no right of way here, because it is a house in a street; and there is no mining royalty here, because it is not in a mining neighbourhood." Then there were questions with regard to leases. My hon. Friend has read out questions which refer to every kind of transaction as if they were questions which had to be answered in respect of each transaction. That is not so. It would be as easy as possible to answer these questions, and I never heard very much complaint with regard to them; but they contain information which is of very great value. Take the particular questions with regard to rights of way. If these questions with regard to rights of way had been answered for the last 100 years, it would make a very great difference to the public in many cases; and the same thing applies to other easements with regard to property.
    There is no doubt at all that the public has been deprived, by getting rid of this Section, of something to which it is entitled. There is no country in the world that I know of which has not got information of this kind. In France there is a full register of all transactions, for the purpose of assessing the taxes, among other things. There is a full, complete, exhaustive record of every transaction. There is no Dominion in which there is not a complete register, and I believe there is such a register also in Germany, Denmark, Belgium and the United States of America. This will be the only country that will deprive itself of information which, in every other country in the world, is regarded as essential, and there is no doubt at all about the reason why. One of the ways in which the valuation added to the revenue was not by the direct method of increment taxes and the halfpenny duty but was by giving a really true record of the value of property for death duties. That has saved millions of money to this country. It is a great mistake that people make to imagine

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    that, when they evade taxes, they reduce taxation. The only thing that they do is to pass the taxes on to other people. The taxation is the same; the burden of expenditure is the same; and when an Income Tax payer manages, by some skill or other, to elude payment of the amount which he really ought to pay, he passes it on to another man who has not taken the trouble to manipulate his accounts, or who is too straightforward to do so. The same thing applies to Death Duties. If property owners manage somehow to elude payment of the full amount, owing to the fact that the State has not got a real, honest valuation, it only means that someone else has to make up the deficiency, and it generally falls upon the shoulders of the same class of people.
    I was rather surprised at the way in which the Government have got rid of this Section. I hesitate to say how it looked in the papers the following morning. The Government said they could not accept the Amendment. My right hon. Friend said he had been in favour of it—he was quite straight-forward about it, as he always is—but that, in the position in which he was, he could not accept it, and he gave another very good reason, I think a most admirable, practical reason. He said, "This is a subject of inquiry by a Treasury Committee at the present moment. I cannot undertake that that Committee will report before the Report stage of the Bill is over, and, therefore, I cannot give an answer for this year." After that, purely because a few inexperienced Members—and we have all been inexperienced, we have all been new Members at one time, though it is a long time ago since I was a new Member—I have no doubt at all that it was a mistake, and that they probably did not quite understand the Bill; who does within the first few months after he has been in the House of Commons? [HON. MEMBERS: "Pringle!"] I should like, if I may, to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) upon his brilliant and weighty speech. I am told that he was not here when the objection was raised. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] He told me so, and I am sure he would not mislead me. At any rate, here is a challenge which is taken up, and the Government, having deliberately decided that it was a question that ought
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    to be put off, because a Treasury Committee was sitting, afterwards take advantage of a challenge of that kind. I do not think there are many precedents for such action.
    After it had been deliberately rejected upon several previous occasions by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who are Members of this Government, by the most responsible Members of the Government, I think that those of us who were not present were, at any rate, entitled to believe that the Government were going to take the same course as they had previously taken, especially after what they had said in the course of the discussion. I ask them whether it would not be better, until this Treasury Committee reports, until we can see what bearing this valuable information has upon valuations, at any rate to keep it going for another year? That was the original decision of the Government. Is it too much to ask them to stand by the decision to which they deliberately came, and to which they came for a good reason? If that Committee reports that this information is of no value for valuation purposes, that is not in the least helpful, they will be able to deal with it in their next Budget, but meanwhile I earnestly appeal to them not to destroy the value of a register which I have no doubt at all, whatever course they may take with regard to taxation in the future, whether in the case of Imperial taxation or of local taxation, they will find invaluable. The question of local taxation has not yet been dealt with. Every one knows that it has got to be dealt with by some Government some day. I do not believe the present Government will be able to go very much further without facing it. It is quite clear that you cannot put the whole burden of local taxation upon the very narrow basis of the present method of taxation. It is quite impossible. It is being dealt with now piecemeal. Until the Government make up their minds whether it is to be on a capital basis or upon an annual basis—and that is one of the questions they will have to face—I do ask them not to deprive themselves of a register which will be of the greatest possible importance to them when they come to settle that very great problem.
    Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I occupy rather a peculiar position in this matter. It has become my fate to hear

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    quotations from my own speeches bandied across the Floor of the House, in the endeavour of hon. Gentlemen to attack or defend the Government. But my position is peculiar in more than that, for it would seem that I am one of the small band who, whatever view we took upon this subject last year, propose to take the same view on the present occasion. Let me say at once that I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General that it would be perfectly absurd to attempt to treat an observation of mine, I think three years ago, as a pledge binding upon the Government or the House of Commons, or upon myself. Anyone who heard the words will know that that was not a Parliamentary pledge at all, but an expression of the policy of the Government as it stood at that time, which that Government would have been free to change if it had thought fit and if it could have shown sufficient reason for changing it. I go a little further with my hon. and learned Friend. I deprecate with him the habit of raking up the OFFICIAL REPORT. I hope we shall get rid, and quickly, of any idea that consistency in these matters is a virtue, for, otherwise, the position of the new Chancellor of the Exchequer when he joins us will be too disagreeable. Let us get over these reproaches before he comes among us again.
    Now I come to the merits of the actual proposal. I think they are a little obscured by the fears certainly entertained in large measure among my hon. Friends, by the hopes cherished on the benches there, and even by the fond regrets of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) for the taxes of which he was the author. The merits of the Valuation Department and of the returns made to it now really have nothing to do with those taxes and the less those taxes are considered in connection with this matter the better chance my right hon. Friend will have of persuading the House to give a calm and dispassionate consideration to the issue actually before us. My right hon. Friend, in the course of the passage of his Budget, at one time included in the Bill no fewer than 13 different valuations. They were reduced to three or four on the Report stage, if my memory serves me right. Many of them were swept away and they were reduced to a limited number. What was the dis-
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    advantage of those valuations? They were made by a very able set of valuers acting with complete honesty and with great acumen, but every value these people were required to find was a value unknown to any transaction between human beings. It was a value which had never been the subject of purchase and sale, which had never changed hands. It was a philosophical abstraction which did immense credit to the ingenuity of my right hon. Friend, but which had no relation to the every day affairs of life. Those values were useless. But what are the values with which we are dealing here? They are the records of actual transactions between citizen and citizen, where the free play of the market settles the price. Is it of no value to the Government to have a record of such transactions? No doubt as years pass the relevance of the evidence afforded by the older records to the values of to-day becomes steadily less. No doubt it is true that transactions a few months or a year ago may be no guide to the present value of a property, but when you find that the return to-day differs markedly from the price given for the property the year before you are put on inquiry. You have not conclusive proof that there is anything wrong, as in the case my right hon. Friend cited with which he had to deal. The proof is produced that the first value was a purely artificial value—the price of a lady's whim and not the price of a house. But is it not right that you should be put on inquiry as to a case of that kind?
    But it is not only in regard to the revenue that this information is of value if properly and fairly used. I beg my hon. Friends on this side of the House, who have to defend property against a very able and very dangerous and increasingly active attack, not to shelter misdeeds which bring property into contempt. There is nothing, I think, that has done more to injure the rights of property owners than the notorious difference between the prices which have been charged for property as between a willing seller and a willing buyer, and the prices asked for the same property if it is known that a public department or a local authority needs it. I think in the majority of cases the owner of the property is probably perfectly innocent in the transaction. He takes advice. The advice given him by those whom he would

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    naturally consult—by the valuer or by his lawyer—will at once be coloured if they know that a public authority is trying to purchase. We ought to have, for the protection of the State, all the information we can get as to the real value of property, and this important information has saved the country thousands, hundreds of thousands—I am not sure I might not put it higher than that—of pounds in the large transactions that took place in consequence of the War in the purchase and sale of land. The Valuation Department was being increasingly used, and, I think, properly used, not only by the different Departments of Government when they had to do with property, either in acquiring or in selling it, but by local authorities, who found that the Valuation Department had a wider experience and a greater knowledge than was possessed by themselves, and could often save them from making great mistakes involving a great loss of public money.
    I think I know what is in the minds of hon. Members of the Opposition above the Gangway. They think some day upon these valuations they are going to found a system of taxation of a predatory kind. I think I know what is the fear of many of my hon. Friends on these benches. It is that this knowledge in the hands of the Government will make that task easy. When we have to fight that fight, we are not going to win or to be beaten because of the collection of such knowledge as is involved in this case. We shall win or lose on a much bigger issue. And though these Returns, if continued, would no doubt lighten the task of any Government which wanted to make a valuation, the mere fact that you have not got any of these retards will not make it much more difficult to obtain that valuation whenever it is required, though it may deprive you of seine evidence which it would be in the interests of all of us to have. I think it must have been the fate of the Prime Minister to join with me in the defence of this Clause in earlier years. I make no sort of reproach against him if he changes his mind, but I would beg that he will take a little more time to consider. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has said, we took this Division by a mere accident, by
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    the action of certain hon. Members who, when my right hon. Friend who moved the Amendment and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Captain Pretyman) were ready to withdraw and to give the Government another year for consideration, which the Financial Secretary to the Treasury had asked, challenged a Division and insisted on a Division. It is they who have killed the Section and put my right hon. Friend in a very difficult position if he wishes to retain it. But I appeal to him, and I appeal to Members of the party ranged in his support, not to be driven into doing a thing because of the folly of hon. Members opposite at 12 o'clock the other night. Let us have the time for consideration for which the Financial Secretary pleaded. Let us have the report of the Committee on Valuation, which I think I heard my right hon. Friend say would shortly be issued. Then we shall judge this question in a calm atmosphere on its merits, knowing exactly what the information is worth and not attaching to it on the one hand hopes which it will not sustain, and not being alarmed about it on the other by fears which are unsubstantial. I hope I may appeal to my right hon. Friend to leave the law as it was before this Clause was introduced for another year and to take time to make up his own mind and that of the Government as to the course they will pursue.
    Mr. ASQUITH: I shall not trespass for more than a very few moments on the attention of the House, for almost all I had intended to say has been said by my right hon. Friend who has just sat down. It is not often that we find ourselves in such complete agreement. The situation in my experience is a unique one. The Solicitor-General has talked as if this Clause was part of the Budget introduced by the Government. He defended it root and branch. We know perfectly well it was not only not part of the Budget, but when it was proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull), the Financial Secretary opposed it, not on its merits, but opposed it as being inopportune, particularly in view of pending inquiries, and but for one of those Parliamentary accidents which sometimes occur it would have been withdrawn and we should have heard no more of it

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    Therefore, the question now before the House is whether we are going to insist, as part of the Finance Bill of the year, upon a provision which the Government never dreamt of introducing themselves, and which, three years ago, when the Land Taxes themselves were repealed, the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government declared to be in the highest degree inopportune.
    I listened with a great deal of satisfaction to most, if not the whole of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). He and I assisted at the birth of these taxes, and we waged a strenuous fight. We picked a quarrel with the House of Lords, or they picked a quarrel with us. We dissolved Parliament. The country was in a condition of turmoil and excitement for the best part of two years, and it was only after, I think, two General Elections that we succeeded in carrying the taxes and placing them on the Statute Book. I think they never had a fair chance. As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, in their original form they were bold in conception and I still believe would have been fruitful in results. The House of Commons in those days, when we had a considerable majority, modified and restricted the application of these taxes to such an extent that their productive value, even when the Act was passed, had been seriously impaired. I must add, that the Courts of Law came in, and they mangled and mutilated—no doubt in strict accordance with the principles of jurisprudence—what were, I think, the obvious intentions of Parliament. I might say of the passing of those duties, as Gratton said of the old Irish Parliament,
    "I watched by their cradle, and I followed their hearse."
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was not the chief mourner, to which position his parental responsibility thoroughly entitled him. I and a select, and in those days a dwindling, band, although we were disappointed with the fruits of the taxes desired that the taxes should still remain upon the Statute Book in order that in days to come, emancipated from the fetters which had been imposed upon them, they might fulfil the original intentions of their parents. We were faithful to the last, and we assisted in the funeral obsequies.
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    This valuation—reduced as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham has just said, to thoroughly practical limits, by practical men, the limits which were imposed by the actual experience of business transactions—remained. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham has already expressed his views on the matter, and I cannot express my own views better than to quote the words which he used, and which he has in substance repeated to-night, in 1920 when the taxes disappeared:
    "What is there, for the purpose the hon. Member has in mind, in the Act of 1909–10? It is the obligation that wherever the sale of land or the transfer of interest in land, takes place, the particulars of it shall be made known to the Valuation Department, and recorded at Somerset House. That is the part of the Act which has been invaluable in assessing public authorities. Those are the provisions which have led to the saving in the purchase of land, in the price paid, as described by the Minister of Health in the answer given to a question, to which reference has been made. Those are the particulars which we still propose to require to have supplied to the Valuation Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1920; col. 2435, Vol. 131.]
    What does the Solicitor-General mean in the observation that these are dusty, musty, out-of-date transactions? These are the things that are going on day by day and year by year, and which afford, or ought to afford, as they were intended to afford, through the Valuation Department to the taxing authorities, real authentic information as to what the course of the market was in a variety of transactions. That is a far better index than the speculative assessment of professional valuers, although I do not wish to disparage them. The right hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) produced a formidable indictment, but really I think he had his tongue in his cheek. As the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has said, look at your Income Tax, look at your Death Duties. They bring in revenue, and so this was intended to bring something in. Indeed, as the right hon. Member for West Birmingham has said, it has brought in hundreds of thousands, and even millions, of pounds.
    The vast number of queries and suggestions and requirements as to information which the Return demands are totally irrelevant in the ordinary transactions of life. In the purchase or

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    sale of a house, you do not go into the question of mineral rights, or rights of way, or the hundred or so other possible things which are swept into the net if you leave it as wide as you can, and which do not occur in everyday transactions. Why are you going to give this up? It is not a question of abolishing the Valuation Department. That would be a much wider and much more serious matter. This is a practical thing which has been in force for years. It has produced, as the right hon. Member for West Birmingham said—and we cannot have a higher authority, after all his large administrative experience—hundreds of thousands and millions of pounds. It was no part of the Budget of this year. The Clause we are now considering, and which we are asked to delete, is the haphazard product of a transient Parliamentary situation. Investigation, as the Financial Secretary told us, is going on at this moment in the Treasury and other Departments in regard to the matter, and I do add my appeal and I make it as strong as possible, to the appeal which has already been addressed to the Prime Minister by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, not to persist in this accidental addition, this excrescence, to his Budget, but to allow the matter to remain over for more deliberate consideration.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Several references have been made to me and to the protest I made when the matter came before the House 10 days ago. On that occasion I told the House, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) have been good enough to say that I was not worried by previous votes on this matter, because I have been opposed to the continuation of these particular forms. I told the House so 10 days ago, but as I had only recently taken over my present office I told the House that I did not think, holding the strong views I did, that I ought to take advantage of it to press this Clause through. I then said that there was a Committee sitting at the Treasury, dealing, not with this particular Clause, but with the continuation of the Land Valuation Department. The House probably knows that a Report was made by a Committee presided over
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    by Sir Howard Frank, a few weeks ago, which has been referred to a Committee of the Treasury to go into, as to a continuation of the Land Valuation Department with a view to amalgamating all the land transactions of the Government Department under one head, of which the Land Valuation Department would naturally form an important part. I suggested that I would refer this particular Clause to that Committee. The Clause has, however, not been referred to that Committee, because the House took a different decision, and relieved me of the obligation of the offer I had made on behalf of the Government. The Mover and Seconder of the Amendment very courteously acceded to my request, and were prepared to withdraw the Clause, but in a free vote the House came to the conclusion that it was not desirable to continue this particular Section of the Finance Act, 1910.
    I want the House to realise that we are not in any sense, if this Clause remains in the Finance Bill of this year, destroying the Land Valuation Department, or even destroying its utility. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs paid the strongest testimony to the first valuation of 1910, which was made as soon as the Finance Act, 1909–10, was passed. He spoke of the great value of that valuation, and of the ability of the valuers who made it. I want the House to realise that that valuation was made without having any one of these returns. It was made by the right hon. Gentleman's land valuers from the knowledge they had, and the knowledge which all land valuers do have if they are worth their salt when they are making a valuation. I have made the very fullest inquiry in my Department as to what the effect will be on that Department if this Clause remains in the Bill. The Land Valuation Department, presided over by a gentleman who is very well-known to my right hon. Friend, would prefer to have the original Section. They would prefer to receive from time to time this information which is not in the possession of any other valuer in the country, and to that extent in transactions with the Government loads the dice against the subjects of the King. That may be desirable or it may not, but it is true. I have made very full inquiries of my Department, and they are prepared to carry on the Department

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    efficiently without the possession of this Section. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has told us of their great ability. They are men skilled in valuation, and nobody need think that the valuations made on behalf of the Government will really suffer if this Section is not admitted in the Finance Bill.
    I have made further inquiries. I have gone more fully into the reasons for the inclusion of this Section in the Bill of 1909. I am not going to quote speeches with any idea of accusing right hon. Members of inconsistency, but I have gone back to 1909 to find out really what was the reason for this particular Section. There is some very interesting reading to be found in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs set great value by this Section as a piece of machinery in 1909, and the then Solicitor-General, our late friend Sir Samuel Evans, in speaking of this very Section, said:
    "The Committee had already decided that an increment duty should be put upon income. The provisions of the Section which the hon. Member moved to omit are merely provisions for carrying out the machinery here set forth. If increment value duty has to be paid by the person receiving the increment, some machinery is necessary, and the machinery is here provided."
    I have refreshed my memory by that Debate since the Debate took place 10 days ago. This particular Section is the real essential machinery for the preservation of the Land Taxes. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, in speaking on the subject in 1909, complained of the attack which had been made upon the Section. He said:
    "I think the right hon. Gentleman has introduced very unnecessary heat into the discussion of a practical proposal submitted by my hon. Friend to the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1909; col. 2156, Vol. 7.]
    8.0 P.M.
    The right hon. Member for open Valley (Sir J. Simon), who took a leading part in those Debates, spoke very strongly in favour of this Section. He said:
    "When you are devising a system of taxation … you are entitled to have a machinery which makes it certain that those persons who have to pay do pay."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1909; col. 2163, Vol. 7.]
    HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am delighted to get those cheers, because now I find out what is the real reason for this. It was not wanted in order to enable the average valuer to deal with Estate Duties; it was put into the Act of 1909 in order to enable these Increment Value Duties to be worked. That was the reason. Everybody who really goes into this matter fully; and I am going to quote before I have finished—
    Mr. ASQUITH: The right hon Gentleman spoke of "the right hon. Member for Spen Valley." The Member for Spen Valley then is not the Member for Spen Valley now. It was Sir Thomas Whittaker, then.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I was speaking of the Gentleman who at that time was called Mr. Simon. I was dealing with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Member for Spen Valley I want the House to realise a little more clearly, before they go to a Division on this matter, a little more clearly what the present position of the Opposition is with regard to this Section. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs did say something once about its origin, but the right hon. Member for Paisley shed a tear over the lost duties. I think he would still desire to reimpose those duties; the answer to the question as to whether he desires to do so or not is perfectly clear from the Debates in this House. The hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. A. McLaren) who—he will forgive me for saying so—really caused a good deal of feeling the other night. He laid it down very clearly He said, it is perfectly clear.
    "We on these benches will not allow an irreligious touch upon the valuation of land at Somerset House. Although the valuation is not up to date it can be brought up to date within six months, if power is given to the Department. We look upon the valuation at Somerset House of the value of land in this country as the Doomsday Book which we shall use when we come into power … . some sort of easy attack may be made that will cut the ground from under the Valuation Department, and that we will not tolerate for a moment, because the valuation has cost the country far too much."
    The hon. Member summed up the valuation
    "As something which we, on this side, shall watch with great care."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1923; cols. 1369–70. Vol. 165.]

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    It is not only the hon. Member for Burslem. The right hon. Member for Paisley has just made a speech to this House—if I may say so, it was a very reasonable speech, a speech in the most reasonable manner—asking that this Section should be continued, but saying nothing of what he said a few months ago as to the real reason for this Section.
    Mr. SEXTON: It was equally reasonable.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: From the point of view of the hon. Member, it was equally reasonable. If it were merely a question of giving the valuers information which they cannot otherwise get, I should have great difficulty in voting for the retention of this Amendment. If, on the other hand, there lies behind the plea for the retention of this Section, something more than the information which the valuers may need, then I find much more difficulty. The right hon. Member for Pailsley said, as late as 1st June of this year—he is reported in the "Yorkshire Post"—
    Mr. ASQUITH: I said it about a fortnight ago.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The right hon. Gentleman did not say it here to-night. Let us see what his real reason is. He said:
    "There lies at the root of all the reform mentioned the question of the taxation of land. It has been found in the Undeveloped Land Duty—which has since disappeared from the Statute Book. One of its main purposes was to insure a complete capital valuation of land of the country. The tax has gone! The valuation remains, and I am told that there would be little difficulty in completing it and bringing it up-to-date."
    The right hon. Gentleman goes a little further, and says:
    "I am particularly glad"—
    and this relates to the actual Clause we are discussing to-night—
    "to think that they, the Valuation Department, will continue to keep a record of sales and other transactions"—
    Why? In order to give valuers information they could not get otherwise? No. This is what he said:
    —"so that, when the resurrection of the duties takes place, as I am sure it will, we shill find it in existence still in active working."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th April, 1920; cols. 259, 260, Vol. 128].
    HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is the real reason. It is out at last! I wondered if anyone on the other side of the House was really going to cheer this evening. Now we have got the cheers. We know what they mean. They are not, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs says, in order that valuers may have a little more information than they otherwise would have had. They may be useful for that reason, but, as the right hon. Member for Paisley said, quite frankly, when he, or some of his colleagues—be it the Opposition above or below the Gangway—come into power, and they can really get to work on these land values, that they may find that the Department keeps those returns in existence in order that they may reimpose the duties.
    I feel myself clearly absolved from the suggestions I made here 10 days ago. I had not then read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I am delighted to have found that speech. I am not at all sure that the House has read it. I very gravely doubt if the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has read it. I for one, say that I feel entirely absolved from any suggestion I made here 10 days ago, and if hon. Members of the Conservative party feel as I feel, that this valuation, these returns, were made for other purposes than those which the right hon. Gentleman for Carnarvon Boroughs, and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), thought they were solely made for—I am perfectly certain my right hon. Friend would never subscribe to the speech of the right hon. Member for Paisley—
    Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN: If my right hon. Friend will permit me to say so, I certainly should not. The right hon. Gentleman was attacking me when I was speaking the mind of most of my right hon. Friend's present colleagues.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Then the right hon. Gentleman does not agree with the right hon. Member for Paisley. I think there are many Members on this side of the House, having now heard, from an official source, the real views of the Opposition in regard to these Sections who will be prepared to say it is desirable it should remain on the Statute Book.
    Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I must confess to a feeling of profound amazement at the line taken by the right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House. He is put in charge of a Budget, which is amended by accident, by a mistake, against his advice. When this Bill was in Committee, owing to circumstances of which hon. Members who were present during the Committee stage are perfectly well aware, an Amendment was carried because the Government refrained from putting on their Whips, as everyone on this side expected them to do, and as the right hon. Gentleman himself gave us to understand they would do, in the speech which he delivered in resisting the Amendment. What happened? The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that we were approaching the hour of 12, if, indeed, at the time, we had not gone beyond it. Hon. Members opposite had moved a whole series of new Clauses, one after another, and as Clause after Clause came up for consideration it was withdrawn. Hon. Members behind me got irritated by the constant withdrawal of the Clauses which had been moved, and when this Amendment was moved, one or two hon. Members on both sides of the Gangway—not on one side of the Gangway; not, as the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said, only new and inexperienced Members—
    Mr. PRINGLE: Some of them were.
    Mr. MacDONALD: Some of them were, and some of them were not.
    Mr. PRINGLE: I was not one of them.
    Mr. MacDONALD: It was very mixed. It was more for a joke than for anything else—declined to allow this Clause to be withdrawn. Very much to our surprise, the Government decided that they would not put on their Whips. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well we were working on an agreement. Does he mean to tell me that we should have agreed to have given him the Committee stage of his Bill, as we did give it to him, had we known that the Government were not going to keep the Bill as it was? I can assure him of this, that if I hard known that this Clause, which has now become Clause 27, was going to be added to the Bill, after a perfunctory Debate, without any consideration, and that in a moment of panic, the Govern-
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    ment were not to put their Whips on and protect the Bill as it was against this Amendment—does he mean to tell me, for a single moment, that I should have agreed to the bargain that we were so loyally carrying out? Certainly not.
    What is the position to-day? I never for a moment believed that the Government would not have gone back upon this. In fact, so certain was I that the present Clause would not have been kept in by them, that I immediately got into communication with right hon. and hon. Members opposite, through the usual channels, to arrange how the thing was to be rectified.
    Not having got this tactical position by declining to put the Whips on at the end of the Committee stage, which was only got from us by the assumption that all Amendments were to be resisted except those we agreed to during the last 10 days they have been searching the OFFICIAL REPORT during the last day or two they have been reading speeches, and they discover now that this Section, which is repealed by Clause 27, has been kept in our Finance Acts, not for the purpose of any utility, not for the purpose of taking public guarantees against landowners, not for the purpose of taking the necessary particulars for death duties, but they now discovered a thing of which they were absolutely innocent. My right hon. Friend, this keen critic of this Clause, this consistent opponent of this reform, has been living in a state of virgin innocence. He never understood before that there was any support in the country for the taxation of land values. It never crossed his unsophisticated mind that, if a Government came in that did believe in taxing land values, that valuation would be used as a basis and aid for the imposition of those duties. Now, having taken advantage of his tactical position within the last few days, he says, "We have discovered all those wonderful and important things, and therefore I am going to vote in favour of Clause 27."
    I hope sincerely that this sort of thing is not going to continue. The position is a simple one. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) has made a statement about the utility of the law as it stands which no official of this House dare deny. The figures are there. These returns are not

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    dusty pieces of paper. They keep the Valuation Department in touch with the day to day and week to week transactions in the sale and purchase of land. The result is that when the Death Duties Returns are put in, the Department has got actual transactions in the sale of land and of houses, and the authorities who are dealing with those death duty valuations are enabled to check the value of those estates. The result is printed in every Report from the Department regarding what happens under death duty valuations. I have had extracted for my information what happened from 1911 to 1921, year by year. We find, for instance, that in 1911 the valuations brought in by the accounting parties amounted to over £44,000,000. Those same valuations, as checked and settled and certified by the Department with its knowledge in this dusty collection of paper, was not £44,000,000, but was increased to over £47,600,000. So on year by year the difference of the certified accepted valuation, as the result of the working of the Land Valuation Department, and the information at their disposal from 1911 to 1921, amounted to about £3,500,000 one year, £4,000,000 the next year, £5,800,000 the next year, £4,600,000 the next year, and so on, the maximum being £11,000,000 in 1917 and reaching a figure in 1921 of £9,952,000.
    That is why the landlords' section of this House want to abolish this provision of the law. It is not that they are afraid; of the taxation of land values. They know if the decision of the country is that a Government is to come in with that in its programme, that, valuation or no valuation, it is going to be carried out. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham was right. Nobody with any sense of political power would say that the existence or non-existence of this part of the Land Valuation Department is going to make any difference in the question of the taxation or the non-taxation of land values. Much larger issues are going to settle that question. But it has an immediate effect. It means that the Death Duties are more with this information than without it; that we have a Department to check Death Duty valuations put in by representatives of the heirs of the dead owners. It means that public authorities are going to save hundreds of
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    thousands, millions of pounds, in the aggregate, as the result of having a public record kept of those transactions. It means that the owners of land are not going to be put in such an advantageous position for driving unjust bargains, especially with public authorities.
    Does anybody mean to tell me that the enthusiasm which developed on the last night of the Committee, and the enthusiasm which has shown itself on the benches opposite to-day, is merely the enthusiasm engendered by the destruction of a useless Department? Not at all. Enthusiasm does not come from such parched sources as that. The enthusiasm has been engendered because these records of information, held by the Public Department, mean millions of money out of the pockets of the landlord class, saved every year to the public, which would not be saved otherwise. This is not a nice transaction. I know that hon. Members opposite, and Members of the Government, disagree with me. Is this sort of—I was almost going to use an offensive term—backstairs style, the way in which we are to bring before the country our different opinions and settle them? I am in favour of the taxation of land values; but I am not in favour of this Clause being deleted simply because I happen to be in favour of the taxation of land values but because I believe that this information is necessary for the protection of the public. I believe that experience has shown that it means millions of pounds to the national Exchequer and to the local exchequers, and I believe that the one reason why Clause 27 was put in first of all, and—I am very loath to say this—the reason why it is being kept in is that it is a case of making hay while the sun shines. If the Government wanted Clause 27 in this Bill, it ought to have put it in at first. We ought to have known all about it. This House ought to have had a chance of a full discussion with a full knowledge of what was going to happen from the very beginning.
    The Government ought not to take advantage of that irregular snap vote and still more irregular rejection, half humorous and half serious, which enabled the Government to say, "We will not put our Whips on and we will let the House do what it likes." If the Government makes a change it ought to take the responsibility for the change. Over and over again we have asked the Gov-

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    ernment in comparatively minor matters to take off the Whips, and they would not do it. Here is a great issue. I do not care whether there is £10,000 or £10,000,000 involved. It is an issue in principle. The change ought not to be made in the way in which the Government, I regret to say, appears to regard the proposal. I appeal to the Prime Minister, even now, to take everything into consideration. Let the Government go back to the Committee speech of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He gave us warning that we were to have only a respite. We all put that meaning into his words. He told us his own opinion. He said, in effect, "I am not ready yet; I have not had enough experience of the Department to justify me in doing this. There is a Committee of inquiry, and I intend to put this matter before that Committee." Then he turned round to his Friends, and they agreed to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. The Financial Secretary had said, "When I get all the information which I require I shall deal with the matter." That is the proper attitude to take up. I again appeal to the Government to go back to that attitude and not to take advantage of what was a very snap Division obtained under very extraordinary circumstances.
    Major PAGET: I have been very much surprised at some of the arguments which I have heard from hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) remarked that this involved a sum of only £4,000. Other hon. Members, who have employed equal diligence, have assured the House that if the Clause remains in the Bill we shall be able to save the Exchequer at least £15,000 and the unfortunate taxpayer no less than £500,000. My hands are clean in this matter. I have always considered this Department to be what they have proved to be, namely, an expensive body which was intended to do something in the future which it was not doing in the present. That rather does away with the intense indignation of hon. Gentlemen opposite at the idea that we have not given them fair play over this matter. They seem to think that the rules of the game are entirely different on their side from what they are on our side, that they have to observe a different form of ethics from that which we have to observe. For instance, when they, in an equally lucky
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    manner, succeeded in scoring a point, there is not the slightest doubt that they made us pay for it to the extreme limit, even to the extent of reducing this honourable House of Parliament into a disorderly bear garden. That was the way in which they celebrated what was equally a snap vote and a happy victory. It would have been better if they had treated the matter in a more sporting manner. There can be no possible manner of doubt that they brought the result on themselves, that they challenged the Division for one purpose and for one purpose only, which was to place the Government in a most embarrassing position. Those Gentlemen who were sitting here would have been the first to have followed people like myself, who suffer from a good deal of independence, and would undoubtedly have voted against the Government whether the Whips had been put on or not. I think that some of the great defenders of the land taxes would have gone into the lobby against them if they had thought that there was a chance of embarrassing the Government by doing so.
    That being the case, can they complain that the Government say, "Well and good; you asked for it and you got it; so why grumble?" We have heard a great deal as to these land duties enabling local authorities to obtain the land that they require for public purposes. Hon. Members opposite seem to have forgotten the Land Acquisition Act, 1919, which enables any local authority to obtain in the simplest manner the land required, and inflicts heavy penalties on any landowner who stands out for an unfair price. Legal Gentlemen on the other side will admit that all the expenses of both sides in a long-fought-out and arduous case in connection with land purchase is not a cheap process to go through, when one remembers the small portions of land which are at stake in nine cases out of ten. I largely agree with what was said by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) as to the landlords having got themselves into a thoroughly unpopular position by treating outgoing tenants in an entirely different manner from that in which they treat the communities in which they themselves live. But I could bring many instances to the notice of hon. Gentlemen opposite where the "grasping landlord," as they term him, has not only given the

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    land, but has also built a school entirely at his own expense. Under the Land Acquisition Act of 1919 there is not the slightest danger that the people will be mulcted in the future as they have been mulcted in the past. I fail to understand what the Leader of the Opposition meant when he said that the local exchequers would gain very largely by the retention of this part of the old Act, because this provision deals entirely with capital value. I have had a good many years' experience of local government, and I absolutely fail to realise how a knowledge of the capital value can, either now or in the near future, assist the local revenue by raising funds.
    Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: In what capacity did you serve?
    Major PAGET: I have served as a chairman on parish councils. I have served for about 14 years on a district council. I have also served on a board of guardians which had to deal with a certain amount of rating, and for the last five years I have sat upon a county council. Therefore I can claim to have some slight experience of local government.
    Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: It depends upon whether you attended the committees. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
    Major PAGET: I have no objection to the interruptions of my hon. and gallant Friend, but I would like to make a small bet with him that my attendances are better than his own.
    Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN: I have served since 1889 on a county council and I have attended every committee held since that date, except when I was away at the War. Has the hon. and gallant Member attended all the committees in connection with his county council?
    Major PAGET: I do not know whether I would be in order in going into a long explanation of a short and not particularly well-spent life, but I can assure the hon. and gallant Member opposite that in the five or six years since I was elected I have missed only two meetings of the county council and very few committee meetings. To get back to the question, however, having disposed of the red
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    herring which my hon. and gallant Friend drew across the trail, I cannot understand the intense indignation of certain hon. Members on this matter and their passion for the retention of this Department. I understood that the present-day tendency was to get rid of superfluous officials. As a member of an agricultural committee I went about the country with the Board of Agriculture valuer and with my colleagues of the committee, who were all practical men. We used to come to a decision on the value of land and then make an offer of what we considered it was worth. We had to get the sanction, first of the Board of Agriculture and then of the Treasury, and when all that had been done, then, suddenly, the local valuers were brought in. I consider the local valuers to be absolutely useless. The county council committee was composed of practical agriculturists and to show how practical we were, I may say that out of, I think, 480 people whom we settled on the land, only one has failed and on our pre-War holdings, we can show a very large profit and an increased capital value. That shows that the committee were practical men, though I do not say that I myself was one, and we always chose men who thoroughly understood the locality where we bought the land. What possible addition was it to another department like the Land Valuations Department suddenly imposed on us at the end of our deliberations? Either the valuer and the adviser of the Board of Agriculture was perfectly useless and did not know his work or on the other hand the committee entrusted by the Government with this business did not know their work, and the county council did not know theirs. To bring in at the end, local valuers, in order to check the work of the county council struck me as an expensive method of employing unnecessary officials, in order to give a sop to the amour propre of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), because after all these taxes have been entirely—
    Mr. HEMMERDE: What about Lord Strathclyde?
    Major PAGET: I fail to follow the allusion.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: What about Mr. Alexander Ure—afterwards Lord Strathclyde?
    Major PAGET: Although the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs received a good deal of assistance from various legal gentlemen, including the hon. and learned Member who has interposed, I think I am quite within my rights in saying that it is the right hon. Gentleman who will go down to history as the inventor of the "people's Budget." That Budget was to bring in all these wonderful fruits—these rare and refreshing fruits—where were, not only going to pay National Insurance, but old age pensions and every other wild-cat scheme of social reform whichever entered anybody's head. We were told that this was a "plant." There are two kinds of "plants," and this is certainly one of them, because it was planted on the country, and had the country realised that at the end of eight years, in spite of the War, we would still be paying huge sums of money and receiving none, I do not think the country would have returned the then Government. I believe the reason why the present Government was returned with a large majority was because the country had become thoroughly sick of the wildcat schemes of the 1910 Parliaments and wanted release from all this restrictive legislation and from taxes which brought in no revenue, but cost a great deal to collect. The Government are quite right to do away with this Department. If the time should come when hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to bring in their own land taxes—I speak of those above the Gangway—it will be a good thing to let them do so and to let them start on their own basis. We on this side disapprove of this kind of taxation. Why should they expect us to give them assistance in imposing taxation of which we disapprove?
    Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: The hon. and gallant Member for Bosworth (Major Paget) seeks to assure the local authorities that their position will not be prejudiced in the future if the Budget in its reformed shape goes through. I suggest that the experience of the past points in an entirely opposite direction, and yet I cannot hope to convince him if the weighty words of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), who spoke in a much stronger way upon this question than anyone has yet done on this side, failed
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    to bring conviction to his mind. The experience of local authorities in the past has been that over and over again they have been mulcted in heavy charges and extreme costs by local landlords when they desired to acquire land for public purposes.
    Mr. BANKS: Will the hon. Member say that that experience has continued since the passing of the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919?
    Mr. THOMSON: The Land Valuation Department worked through the Land Acquisition Act. Owing to information which was in the possession of the Government, through the valuation made in 1909–10, and through the information that has been brought up to date by this very Section which it is now sought to repeal, the local authorities have, since this information was available, been able to purchase land at a much cheaper price than before.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: Knowing, as he does, the conditions and the cost of land that has been transferred in the county from which the hon. Member comes, will the hon. Member state that the valuation has been cheaper there?
    Mr. THOMSON: The hon. Member for Royton (Sir W. Sugden) has anticipated the very point I was coming to in order to prove my case, because my experience as a member for 20 years of the local authority at Middlesbrough has been this, that before we had the advantage of the assistance of the Land Valuation Department we had to pay for the sites of our public elementary and secondary schools up to £3,000 an acre. Some time ago I had figures taken out, and it was found that in the last 30 years prior to this Land Valuation Department coming into existence the average cost of the land charged by landowners to the Middlesbrough Corporation for sites for their schools was £1,500 an acre. That was in the absence of the Land Valuation Department, and of that information of which the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends opposite are now seeking to deprive us.
    Mr. BANKS: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I do not think he quite appreciated my question. I asked him whether those extortionate prices

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    still prevail after the passage of the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919, the point being that it was the methods of valuation under that Act that stopped them, and not this information at Somerset House.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: That is the point.
    Mr. THOMSON: I agree with the hon. Member in so far that the Land Acquisition Act has enabled local authorities to acquire land at a much more reasonable price than before, but is it not because of the information which they have had placed at their disposal through the Land Valuation Department? My hon. Friend shakes his head, but I would rather quote to the House the evidence of Ministers of State. We were told in the last House, on the authority of the then Minister of Health, that owing to the services of the Land Valuation Department, land had been purchased by local authorities for their housing schemes under the 1919 Act at a saving to the public of no less than £1,411,000, owing directly to the services of the Land Valuation Department. The hon. Member again shakes his head, but I am giving him the information supplied officially by the Minister of Health in the last Government, and I leave it to the House to decide as to which is the authority on a question of that kind. The Minister also told us that there had been a direct saving on the land purchased, amounting to something like 27,000 acres, of £71 an acre. That does not include the saving which accrued, because landlords knew in the first instance of the existence of these returns under the 1909 Act, kept up subsequently by the registration on sale and transfer. Landlords, knowing in the first instance that that information was available, asked a good deal less from the local authorities than they would have done had that information not been at hand, and, notwithstanding that fact, there was a saving of £1,411,000 on the purchase of land for housing purposes.
    My hon. Friend suggests that the Land Valuation Department has nothing to do with that. I submit, in reply to that, that where you have other departments of local authorities in connection with the purchase of land, such as land for asylum purposes, and even for schools, where the assistance of the Land Valuation Department is not available, the
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    price of land to local authorities is infinitely higher than it is where the Land Valuation Department's services can be brought in. Therefore, I submit that the experience of the past is such as to make the House hesitate before it allows to be scrapped an instrument which has proved of very great value to the local authorities, and without which there is very real fear that in the future they will have to pay exorbitant prices when they require to execute works of public utility. The learned Solicitor-General referred in his speech to the fact that they were anxious to build and not to pull down. Surely the one thing necessary to-day is the building of houses, and how are we going to get them at a reasonable rate if we have to pay an exorbitant price for the land on which those houses are going to stand?
    What is the total saving that this proposal will effect? The sponsor of the Amendment in Committee himself estimates the saving to the public purse as a paltry £15,000, and I ask hon. Members opposite whether it is worth saving such a paltry sum to throw away that protection and that security which have been afforded in the past by the Department they are now going to scrap. The £15,000 will be dearly bought if the local authorities and the Government have, in consequence, to pay much more for the land they require for various purposes. Surely, when the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in his most extraordinarily frank speech, spoke of the fact that the dice were loaded against the subjects of the King, he meant rather against the public in acquiring land for various purposes. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham, in a speech which he made in 1920, referred to another case where the continuation of this Department would be invaluable, and he referred also to the need for the revision of our rating system. We are told that next year the Government propose to reconsider and to recast the whole question of local rating. Surely they will be handicapped in that endeavour if they have done away, as they suggest doing away to-night, with this machinery which the right hon. Member for West Birmingham said in 1920 would be invaluable as a means whereby the public could ascertain the true and the real value of the land.
    I appeal, therefore, if it be any good at this late hour, to the Government, that

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    they should not deprive the local authorities, in particular, of the protection which has been of great advantage in the past. The last speaker referred to the Department as costing a great deal and bringing in very little revenue. I wonder whether, when we know all the facts, there is any actual truth in that suggestion. In an answer to a question to-day the Financial Secretary told the House that the gross returns from these much disputed land duties of the 1909–10 Budget amounted to £6,765,000. In my question I asked what was the cost to the State of the Land Valuation Department as concerned the collection and assessment of that value, but the right hon. Gentleman was unable to give a reply. He said he might be able to give the figures in the course of the Debate. I notice, however, that he has not remembered to give those figures.
    Two years ago, when a similar question was put, we were told that the Government then estimated the cost of the Department at something like £5,000,000. I understand that from that £5,000,000 deductions have to be made for services which the Department renders to various other Departments of the Government. If so, I submit that even on the question of debit and credit these much-abused Land Values Duties of 1909–10, as a matter of fact, have yielded more directly in the way of taxes than they have cost to the Exchequer up to the present time. It is well known that indirectly the services obtained in the increased Death Duties have by many millions been greater than any charge which the Department was to the taxpayer. Therefore, I submit on all accounts, there is no ground, on financial reasons or on questions of public policy, not to retain these duties. It will be an evil day when this House agrees to give up that which has been of invaluable assistance to the Department.
    It was, indeed, an extraordinary statement to come from a responsible Minister that they were advising the House against the advice of their own officials to take action which would prejudice and militate against the efficiency of their own Department. We may congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his frankness, although we may not be able to agree with him as to the wisdom of the course he is taking. It really ought not to happen in this House that a Minister tells us that his
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    own Department, his own officials, his own experts, advise one course of action, and the Government, for party reasons, the result of an unexpected Division, seem to go contrary to the advice of their own permanent officials.
    Sir F. BANBURY: It is the best thing they have done for a long time.
    9.0 P.M.
    Mr. THOMSON: The right hon. Baronet has always been opposed to these duties, and to this Department, and naturally he would have rejoiced at inefficiency. But there are many who will be sorry and regret this retrograde step which is about to be taken. Therefore I join in this appeal to the Government that they should, at any rate, continue for another year until they have the Report for which the Financial Secretary said they were waiting, and until their larger scheme of rating reform may be brought before the attention of the House next year. Until we know what that is, let us retain for the present these services which have done so excellently, both in the way of producing revenue and in the way of assisting the municipal and local authorities throughout the country.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: We have listened to an exceedingly interesting and thoughtful Debate. It has centred itself in two particular phases, first, the valuation of land, and, secondly, taxation of land. I deliberately state that my knowledge of agriculture is not sufficiently expert to warrant me in dealing with or discussing any Act that has a bearing on the taxation or the valuation of agricultural land, but as an industrialist I hold that the question of the valuation of land and the taxation of land values is a dominant and—shall I say?—a most responsible consideration, especially in this day and time, when we are fighting to give our employés place and position, and endeavouring moreover to find work for them. Not so many years ago I had the pleasure and opportunity of listening to a very distinguished economist who at one time was a Member of this House, and who to-day, in respect of his contributions to economic literature, holds our respect in no small fashion—I refer to Mr. Harold Cox. When one remembers the very clear and lucid pronouncements that he has made on the question of land values and land taxation, it is well for us in these days

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    to hark back to some of those fundamentals it is very desirable we should keep them before us, those he strove to put before hon. Members when he was in our midst.
    First, let me deal with land valuation. If the House will forgive a personal note—and one does not put in the personal note, believe me, but with diffidence—when, on account of wounds, I was put on light duty in this city in connection with the corps of whom I am very proud, the Royal Engineers—than whom there is no finer section of the British Army—I was put as an assistant to the valuers and civil engineers of that corps. We were assisted by some admirably-trained civil servants. I want to pay my tribute to them, for on all questions of the usefulness and practicability of land valuation there is no finer body of men in the Civil Service than those in the Land Valuation Department to-day. It was my duty to join this section, and in the work they undertook, I say deliberately to-night in this House to hon. Members, that there is no business firm in this country could expect to be solvent if it carried on in such a fashion as they were compelled to carry on by reason of the impracticability of their tests. By value of land, I say definitely and assertively, that there are to-day in this country so many changing factors, not only national, agricultural, industrial, but also international, which have an effective bearing not only on the land and local taxation, as also of local rates on the land, which is so continuously altering, that I say at once—and I join issue here with the hon. Gentleman opposite that, as fluctuating exchanges are the greatest factor in the uncertainty of trade, so fluctuating rates, whether they be county or municipal, make it impossible to get a credible value of land so long as wildly disproportionate valuations in respect of the rates all over the country are to be found. Take some of the London boroughs. They go from the one extreme, say, of 25s. in the £ to the other extreme of 6s. 6d. or 6s. 3d. in the £, and it all has a definite bearing on the taxation and value of the land.
    Mr. FOOT: What has that got to do with the Amendment?
    Sir W. SUGDEN: We are now dealing with the resuscitation of costing and expenses in connection with Governmental land valuation.
    Mr. FOOT: We are not dealing with land values, but with the question as to whether these particulars shall be supplied.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: I must repeat to the hon. Gentleman. It is impossible to-day for the valuers who are concerned in respect of this particular Clause to bring forward as a result of their labours an accurate, perfect and proper valuation suitable for any responsible body to work upon in connection with any industry or agriculture or in respect to the social life of the people as represented by the man who lives in a small five-roomed cottage. Take, for example, the County of Lancashire. I am proud to say that there are more houses owned by the working classes in Lancashire than by any other county in England. If you go back to the 1909 and 1910 Land Tax, you will find that it stunted and killed private enterprise in cottage building. I am not speaking on behalf of the jerry builder, although at that time he produced houses of as good a quality as those which any Government has produced since. I say deliberately that it is impossible to value land to-day by the machinery invented by the 1909–10 Act owing to fluctuating factors. With the practical knowledge I obtained in the War days and since and with the experience one has in respect to the valuation of ground upon which manufacturing establishments have been erected, I say it is impossible to get an accredited and a perfect valuation. There has been an argument put forward that the taxes themselves will in some strange way bring into the market and into the fingers of those who would have it the land of the country. I respectfully challenge hon. Members opposite to prove how and in what fashion by putting a tax upon ground it is going to drive it into the market any sooner or make it any cheaper.
    Mr. FOOT: I would like to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if it is in order to discuss the general merits of the taxation of land values on this Amendment?
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I understand that Mr. Speaker

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    consented to allow the House to take a very wide range in this discussion, and in view of that fact I do not think that I should be justified in stopping the hon. Member.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: I shall always bow to your ruling, but in this matter the one thing is bound up with the other and you cannot dissociate the valuation of land and these taxes. My hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson) has quoted the case of Middlesbrough, but will the hon. Member get up here and say that any of the men who voted for him at the last election, whether they be capitalists or ordinary employés, did not use either their capital or their labour upon a speculative basis? If a man buys a ton of steel, he buys it to sell at an increased value, and why should not the wicked landlord try and obtain the land legitimately and get some little profit from it?
    Mr. T. THOMSON: I have heard more than one complaint in Middlesbrough about the exorbitant price manufacturers are charged when they want to buy a small piece of land to extend their works.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: May I remind the hon. Member that some Northumberland manufacturers and merchants were buying Belgian steel in 1913 at £4 5s. per ton and selling it at £8 9s. per ton. What is the difference between that and a man who takes a deal with land. Again tax land and you increase cost of production and cause eventually more unemployment and make the people's food also more costly. The French Rentes system cannot come into operation here by land taxation. The small Irish peasant system also cannot come into operation into this country under any system of land taxation. Neither can the wonderful agriculture and land system of Denmark. Hon. Gentlemen must look at this subject from a wide point of view, not necessarily an agricultural point of view, but rather socially as well as industrially. Personally, I feel that the House, in its free mind and its true judgment, did a wise and proper thing when it gave the congé to this costly Government Land Valuation Department. I hope we shall go into the Lobby and confirm what has been done in this respect.
    Mr. MacLAREN: I want to preface my remarks by a little explanation, which I think is necessary. I feel somewhat pleased at this great Debate in that I am largely responsible for it ever taking place at all. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury twitted me with that and blamed me for bringing the Opposition to heel and making them feel in such a state of mind that they were prepared to override the counsels of the Government Bench. I am not sorry at that result, but there is one point of explanation which I think is necessary. I only intervened in the Debate the other night after I heard that the Government were not prepared to accept the Amendment, but when the Government said they would not accept it, then I felt that it would not be out of place for me to give vent to my feelings on the whole Matter, because the speech of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave me to understand that the only reason why he would not accept the Amendment was because of the short time he had been in office. After that statement, I could not help feeling that this time next year he would definitely attack the Valuation Department and remove it, and, failing that, I made the speech which I am told, not only in the House, but in the Press, roused the Conservative benches to action. I am extremely pleased that my speech created such a feeling, because, as soon as we know exactly where we stand with regard to these strict lines of demarcation, the better it will be. Valuable Parliamentary time can be wasted in kid-glove politics and nothing effective be done. I came to this House desiring to do something definitely along the lines of changing the law in some directions, and not with the mere idea of becoming a gentleman in a Parliamentary sense. There are many more hon. Members in a similar position, and it is just as well that there should sometimes be a little straight talking, as there was in the Debate to which I am referring. No, it is not conceit. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has interrupted with a suggestion to that effect.
    Sir F. BANBURY: No, I simply made a remark which was entirely intended for the ears of my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. MacLAREN: Some of our ears are a little large too. I merely want to say,

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    having heard that interjection, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that is not the case. We are faced with this Debate to-day in consequence of the challenge that was thrown out for a Division the other night. I was not a party to that challenge at all. The challenge came from behind and the challengers were equally divided between both parties on the back benches on this side. I want, if I may, to say something by way of reply to what has been said in this Debate to-night. I think no speech could be more illuminating than the speech of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain). It was a speech which should be carefully read in the interests of the whole country. It was a speech by a man who knows of the great work being carried on in the Valuation Department. More than that it was a speech by one who knows perfectly well that if the Government persist in knocking off this registration it will create more trouble in the Conservative ranks in this country than anything else could cause. That is why the right hon. gentleman gave the warning that he did from his place in this Chamber to-day. I hope the speech will be read and studied and appreciated throughout the country to-morrow. I am anxious that the Registration Department should be preserved and that was why I was desirous the other night to drag this whole matter into the limelight.
    The present Government have passed an Agricultural Credits Bill, a Bill which was necessitated by the Corn Production Act. It is a Bill to give credit to farmers in order that they may clear off their debts to the banks which advanced money to them to buy out the landowners who have walked off with the high values received under the Corn Production Act. I challenge anyone to deny that. There is another Bill in Committee, the Agricultural Rates Bill. I hope every industrial centre in England will read and study that question. It is a Bill to reduce to one-fourth the rates payable on agricultural land. In view of these two Bills with which the Government are now forging ahead, and which in the ultimate mean considerable presents to the landowners of this country, I thought it highy essential, when I heard the suggestion that something was to be done to weaken the
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    Valuation Department, to raise the whole matter and bring it into the limelight of the House of Commons.
    There is another matter to which should like to refer. The occupants of the back benches on the other side are determined I believe to stick to the decision come to the other night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am gad to get that assent. It is clear they are determined to do away with this record and registration by the Valuation Department. Now this House has passed votes necessitating enormous expenditure on great arterial roads in this country. It has voted for expenditure large sums of money on the pretext of giving employment to the unemployed, and, added to that, if the Government Housing Bill becomes effective in developing the urban areas of the country, with the assistance of a public guarantee, the building projects which will be started under the Measure will also increase the value of the land of the country to the landowners. While hon. Members are enthusiastic about these Measures which would make considerable presents to the landowners of England they are just as enthusiastic in their desire to destroy that system of registration and valuation to which the people have always looked as a means of bringing the valuation up to date at Somerset House.
    Sir W. SUGDEN: Will the hon. Member say if at any time in the history of this country it was ever more easy to obtain and purchase land than it is at this moment?
    Mr. MacLAREN: I was interested the other day in a piece of land in my own Division. We wanted it for a secondary school. The land was condemned as unsuitable for housing purposes when Dr. Addison's nightmares were going to be put up. We, however, decided that we would like to have it for a secondary school. It was rated at £4 10s., but the Corporation of Stoke-on-Trent were asked to pay no less than £6,000 for it, and over and above that the owner of the land kept to himself the right to dig from underneath all iron, coal or other minerals, and, in the event of there being any subsidence of the property, the corporation was to have no power to claim compensation as against the landlord. I could give many more instances of the same kind. I am not trying to

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    impeach the landowner and make them out to be a crowd of highway robbers and brigands, because if to-morrow a landlord came down from Heaven on to the plains of England he would have to conform to the laws of this country, and he would of necessity take every advantage of the growth and development of the community in its demands for land. It is the system I am inveighing against and not the persons. But let me get back to what I was saying before I was deflected. The present Prime Minister, when the same Amendment was up for review in 1917, said that, owing to the War, political feelings lay dormant, but he warned them not to raise this matter as it would raise the passions of a thousand devils. That passage, coupled with the timidity of the Secretary to the Treasury on the night on which the discussion of this matter commenced, gives me the feeling that the Leaders of the Government are none too easy in their own consciences about the conditions with which we are faced at present.
    Mr. W. GREENWOOD: How do you know?
    Mr. MacLAREN: Wait and see. The right hon. Member for South Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) told us that he was enthusiastic about the dropping of this registration because it cost the landowners £500,000 per annum. The landowners could easily pass on the cost of registration to the price they are getting for the soil, and it is no hardship in many cases, indeed it is a very poor excuse, for the landowner to come forward at this time with the plea of this burden of £500,000 as the cost of the transfer. I submit that the right hon. Member for South Hammersmith was merely using that as a pretext to cover his real meaning. I offer that as a retort, because of what has been said to-night by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury with regard to our attitude on the whole matter. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) also has been an opponent of the Valuation Department on the plea of economy. Economy has been the plea all along, but to-day there was a little addition. The intricacy of the questionnaire handed out is also a thing rendering it necessary to abolish the Valuation Department. I think enough has been said along that line by various Members
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    utterly to destroy those as arguments at all. Any move may be made by the friends or agents of the vested interests of this country, all sorts of pretexts will be used to destroy the registration, the intricacy of the questionnaire, the expense, and so on; but the real underlying facts are obvious to anyone who watches the development of this matter. To weaken the valuation, to destroy the efficacy of the valuations made—that is the real purpose behind those who are opposing the Valuation Department, and for no other reason, despite the Secretary to the Treasury having made a great discovery at that Box to-night. I must congratulate him. He made the discovery that those of us who are anxious to preserve the efficiency of the Valuation Department are doing it for no other reason than to have an up-to-date valuation when the time comes when we can institute the taxation and rating of land values in this country.
    That is the discovery he made. But the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in 1914, on the eve of the War, when things were not altogether successful in the political atmosphere because of his adventures in National Insurance, made a few speeches on the land question. He went to Glasgow in that year, "The Mecca of the Single Tax," as it was called, and he asked his audience, "What would you do to transform the land system of the country?" They replied, "Tax land values!" and he retorted, "Yes, do you think I am a shirker? That is exactly what I want to do. What did I get the valuation for? "That is away back in 1914, the Secretary to the Treasury might have known that long ago, and while I knew perfectly well that the register was instituted for the purposes of the Increment Duty, I was not at all interested in the registration of transfers because of that fact, because all the taxes introduced in the Budget of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs were worse than useless from their inception. None of those taxes were taxes that give us a direct tax or rate upon the capital value of land in this country. The only tax at all that came near to it was the Undeveloped Land Tax, so that no tears should be shed on the dropping of this Section. But the inference from the other side of the House has been that because of the

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    dropping of these nonsensical taxes, then of necessity you ought to drop the registration of transfers of property and, if convenient, the Valuation Department altogether. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, I know that is the latent feeling in the minds of many Members opposite, but I want to warn them, in spite of the fact that they have had the honesty to express their mind on the matter, that when we go to the industrial centres and tell them that cheers rang out from the Ministerial side for the destruction of the registration of land values and purchases while they are being asked to pay crippling rates on their houses, and that the same Government that is destroying that valuation is giving agricultural landowners great presents in their rates this year, and, I suppose, for many to follow, under the Agricultural Rates Act—when we state these hard facts on the industrial platforms of this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "They are not facts."] The Solicitor-General said that even though the registration becomes abortive, still the Valuation Department will be in a position to keep its valuations up to date.
    I want to know what guarantee we have that the Valuation Department will be in a position to rectify its valuations by going to outside authorities and appealing to them for information with regard to recent transfers of property. I should like the Solicitor-General to give us a clear guarantee that that is the case. I do not see how the Valuation Department, unless they have statutory powers behind them, can go to outside authorities to make inquiries with regard to recent transfers of property, and in that way keep their valuation up to date. I want, if I may with due respect and deference to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), just to say one word in passing with regard to his remarks. He said that the taxes instituted under the 1909 Finance Act were taxes that might have been a success if they had had a chance. All I have to say is that the more chance they got the more impossible they became. They were taxes which, as I have already said, were not worth the paper on which they were written. I am prepared, however, to endorse the sentiments expressed by the right hon. Gentleman
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    the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs when he said that the taxes were good in this way, that they gave a rare excuse for bringing in a valuation of land.
    Finally, might I give my views, for what they are worth, with regard to the whole question of valuation? Should this valuation be constantly thwarted by all sorts of amendments and restrictions, the ultimate result will be to knock the whole valuation out of date, and make it of no use even for Death Duties, Estate Duties or any other purpose. Some people believe that the interests of the country will be best served by there being no real valuation, and, therefore, no hope for a speedy imposition of rating on land values. My own opinion is that we could have had a valuation costing us little or nothing compared with the amount that this valuation did cost the country, if we had adopted in this country the principle pursued in Australia, of issuing to every owner of land in the country a notice to state to the Government within so many weeks what he considered to be the capital value of his property Therefore, I am offering this, which, while it is in the form of a suggestion, is also in the form of a warning to those who cannot console themselves to abide by the old form of the Finance Act, but who are determined to carry this new Amendment. Should this Valuation Department be made unworkable by a Resolution such as is about to be maintained to-night, and further Resolutions and Amendments later, I think I am speaking freely on behalf of the Labour party when I say that the valuation which we must institute, if ever we come into power, will be something of a more coercive and peremptory nature, and will certainly be something that will give us an up-to-date valuation costing little or nothing; and, if I may repeat what I said the other night, there will be no dubiety as to the object we have in view when we stand by this valuation, namely, to take the taxes off the food of the people of this country, to go to those heavily rated industrial areas and take the rates from the houses of the people, to go to agricultural districts and take the rates from the farm buildings and the improvements of the farmers, and to transfer this vicious form of taxation and rating, which is nothing but a brake on the wheels of industry, and impose it

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    upon the capital value of the land as ascertained in the valuation which we are now discussing. Hon. Members opposite may smile, but I would like to remind them that this country was never roused to such intensity of feeling as it was between 1909 and 1910, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs was condemned, not for going into the intricacies of the land question, not for dealing with the technicalities of valuation, rating or taxation, but merely for adumbrating the fundamental instincts in the heart of man, for enforcing, if you like, this great principle which most men feel although they may fail to give it expression, that this great earth of ours has become private property by the iniquitous laws made by men in the past, which have resulted in the poverty, destitution and slumdom which is costing this country millions by way of trying to cope with tuberculosis. Last year it cost us £7,500,000 to deal with tuberculosis, a disease which is pervading the slums which are the natural outcome of the way in which high land values are keeping building from expanding into the country districts. It is for these reasons that I, at least, if I may be allowed to speak for myself on this matter, am an uncompromising champion of the Valuation Department as it now exists, because I look forward to the time when the taxation to which I have already referred may be brought in as an Act of Parliament on that side of the House, by the party I now represent in Opposition.
    Mr. D. HERBERT: With the permission of the House, I will take their minds back again from the subject of tuberculosis and slumdom to the very simple question which is before us to-night. It is not by any means a question of the abolition of any Department for the valuation of the land of this country, but is a question of the abolition of a certain method of recording prices which often have nothing to do with values. May I say, with great respect, a word about the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain)? We all know him as a model of extreme honest consistency, and I cannot help thinking that he was somewhat led away by his virtues into making a speech consisting of arguments which were absolutely baseless. The right hon.
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    Gentleman suggested that this Department should be kept going because it was necessary for the success of the valuation of the land of this country, which he thought the Government ought to be able to do. I am going to submit to the House that these records are not necessary, and, in fact, are very largely misleading.
    It is a common saying that the value of land is the price you can get for it. That may be true if you are trying to sell the land, but there is nothing more untrue or misleading in the case of land which is not up for sale. Land which is up for sale is worth what it realises to the man who sells it, but it is not always worth that figure, or anything like it, to the man who buys it, and that is the simple reason why this record of prices is often misleading. I venture to suggest, however, that, even if the prices be obtained, and if the prices which are realised for land at different times are useful for a Department which has to value land upon any particular occasion, this record is not necessary for the purpose. If a Government valuer has to value land when a man dies, or when the land is required for public purposes, all that information is available to him without this record at all. This record, however, offers a temptation to the valuer to make a short cut towards his conclusion which often is erroneous, and it often means that he has to do extra work in order to put it right, or that he is going to be corrected by others.
    If it be the case, and I seriously suggest to the House that it is, that this curious record of prices obtained is often misleading, and is in any case unnecessary, the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's argument falls to the ground. He was answered, however, very soon after wards by other speakers on the opposite side of the House. I am not going into the question of the virtues or the vices of the taxation of land values, but I do say that, unless the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham can make out a very much stronger case than he did for the retention of this Department, no one, on this side of the House at any rate, will follow him when they know that the whole struggle to retain this Department is in order to introduce those taxes which were adumbrated by the hon. Member who last spoke. If it comes to that the fight is open, the object of the fight is known, and hon. Members on this

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    side of the House will, I feel sure, whatever doubts they may have had before, be prepared to stand by their guns and to realise that the man who owns a 1,000 acres, or the man who owns a cottage worth 10s. a week, is entitled to consider it as his property. What is the case that has been put up for the retention of this Department? I am speaking now particularly of the only Department that this Clause deals with, namely, that branch of the Department which keeps this record of prices and particulars of sales. It was not necessary for valuation purposes. It was not instituted when the Land Valuation Department was instituted. It was not instituted in order to help valuation in any way whatever.
    Mr. MacLAREN: You are speaking of the original Registry?
    Mr. HERBERT: No, I am speaking of the particular Section which is proposed to be repealed by this Clause—Section 4 of the Act of 1909–10. It was not established for the purpose of valuation and I am prepared to prove it by reference to the Act itself. The Land Valuation Department was established long before. This record of prices was established for the purpose of finding out the difference between the price at one time and the price at the next sale in order to levy a tax on the price and not on the land at all. It had nothing whatever to do with the value of the land. If a man sold his land for some particular purpose at twice the value he had to pay the tax none the less. That shows conclusively that the Department was never needed for the purposes of valuation and the valuation of the land will not be harmed by its discontinuance. Surely hon. Members must realise, if they think, the difference there is between valuing land and valuing other property. Take an estate of many acres in the country, including houses. You may value that as a whole. You may draw a line straight through it. Do you suppose one-half of the land is necessarily equal to the other half in value? Do you suppose, if you split the land up for the purpose of sale by auction and sell it in 40 lots, any single one of those 40 lots is necessarily worth a proportionate part of the value of the whole? And do not hon. Members realise that, every time the land is separately divided, every valuation of the land, as a
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    whole, before that is nugatory and useless? Let me put another aspect of the case? If hon. Members want it for the purpose of the acquisition of land for public purposes, or for payment of duty on death, or, if you like, for a capital levy on the value of the land, what is it they want to get at? The true value of the land, and not the price at which it was last sold. The true value of the land can only be ascertained by a careful consideration of the annual value of the land, and adding to or subtracting from it other elements of value which may not be income producing. Therefore it is that, if you want to get a true valuation of land at any moment, the valuation has got to be made at that moment, and the value 12 months beforehand is in many cases fallacious. The Valuation Department can do it perfectly well. They have skilled men who can find out perfectly easily the annual value of the land, what it will produce, and every other element of value attaching to it.
    May I make one or two references to some curious speeches we have had from the other side of the House. I was not in at the beginning of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment, but I was in the House for two-thirds of his speech, and if he brought forward any real arguments in favour of his Amendment, they must have been contained in the first third of his speech that I did not hear. Then I settled down to listen to the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle), who, I understood, was going to make a great onslaught. His speech, full as it was of wit and humour, was about as empty of argument or reason. Apparently about the middle of his speech he discovered that all the arguments he had prepared were arguments for the defence of the Land Valuation Department, which no one in the House was proposing to abolish. Perhaps, therefore, we may excuse him for not having brought forward much in the way of arguments or reasons for retaining this recording Department of prices. Then we came to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who admitted that the principal value of his land taxes was that they brought about this valuation. What I have said already shows that the valuation made at the time when those taxes were in force can have no possible utility or value at

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    present for the purpose of taxing land. He proudly says the valuation he brought about still stands. So still stands that statue of Old Bill in front of the British Museum, and Old Bill in front of the British Museum is about as useful as the right hon. Gentleman's land valuation. The whole case that has been put up to-night may be divided into two parts. One is the argument that this is wanted for the purpose of taxes which were described by the hon. Member who last spoke. That is enough for hon. Members on this side of the House, and they will vote against the Amendment. I am certain that hon. Members opposite who know anything about dealings in land will realise the soundness of the arguments I have brought forward to show that this record of prices is fallacious and utterly useless with regard to valuation for any purpose of that kind. The only other arguments which have been brought forward are those mistaken arguments brought forward apparently by hon. Members who have not studied the Section that it is proposed to repeal—arguments tending to support the retention of the Land Valuation Department, which it was never intended to abolish.
    The Land Valuation Department has done a great work and it has some great men in it, but it is not right, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said, to say that Department has never been criticised. It has been criticised, and I hope the time will come when it may yet be improved, good as it is, because if you have Government valuers who are in business parlance called tame valuers, and who do nothing else, they are apt to get rusty, and not quite so good at their work. I have known cases of Government valuers who have been sent to value property about which they knew nothing. It is only to be expected that there may be many things done to improve the Valuation Department. I am not in favour of abolishing that Department, but I do hope that Members on this side of the House, and many Members on the other side, will realise that the mere price recording Department is an expense, although it may be a small one, an unnecessary expense to the State, and an expense to individuals. Some hon. Members opposite say that the expense falls on those who have to sell the land, and therefore they
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    do not mind. One hon. Member said that the vendor of the land always puts it upon the purchaser. The poor man, therefore, who has to buy his cottage has to meet this extra expense. In the interests of all, whether they be sellers or would-be purchasers, let us get rid of something which is useless, misleading and expensive, and which never could do anything but cause error.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: One cannot listen to a Debate like this without casting one's mind back to the days of the 1906 Parliament and what followed, when this question—which seems to have been settled the other night at an hour at which one Thought that good faith was made impossible—led to the reorganisation of the powers of the House of Lords, and upon which two General Elections were fought. This question, which was important enough for two General Elections to be fought upon it, and upon which this country blazed from end to end, is now to be undercut by this method of indirect attack. We were told by the last speaker and others that although they do not want to keep the register of sales, they are still in favour of the Valuation Department. Let us clear the ground of all cant in the matter; let us join issue quite clearly upon the real motives underlying this action, and, having joined issue, let us go forward to the fight in full confidence that where we won once we shall win again.
    10.0 P.M.
    A valuation is an important matter. The last hon. Member who spoke will pardon me if I prefer to take the opinion of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) as to the value of the record of these transactions, and also the statement of the Financial Secretary that his permanent officials have said they would prefer to keep this record, rather than I would take his opinion. I suspect opinions upon the question of land coming from gentlemen of his profession. We have in this country a very backward state of land laws. In this country, almost alone, we have no registration of title worth the name, and when I find hon. Members of that profession saying that they want to make the transfer of land cheaper, and I go through the records of the last 50

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    years, I wonder. We on these benches are in favour of the valuation of land being kept up to date for certain reasons.
    Mr. J. JONES: The land for the people. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Not for the robbers of the people.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: We are told that to keep a true valuation and to keep it up to date is to load the dice against the British citizen. That is a gem which the OFFICIAL REPORT will preserve from another Member of that profession. [HON. MEMBERS: "What profession!"]
    Mr. PRETYMAN: Your own profession.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: I think everyone sees the point. [HON. MEMBERS: "What do you profess?"] I do not know whether hon. Members who interrupt think that the professions of barrister and solicitor are fused, or that there is any connection between the two, except the happy connection.[Interruption.]
    Mr. G. BALFOUR: Who gives you your briefs?
    Mr. HEMMERDE: I was saying that there was no connection [HON. MEMBERS: "Hard lines."] I am quite prepared to take my time about the matter, let hon. Members understand that. If I had not thought that there was an agreement the other night I should have spoken then, but as agreements seem to be rather light things, I propose to speak now. I do not, as a rule, speak at very great length. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] But I May be encouraged to do so if hon. Members continue to interrupt me. I have spoken for nearly two hours in the country upon this question, and I can easily do so again without repeating myself. [HON. MEMBERS: "Overtime!"] I do not know whether there is any agreement to-night, and if so whether it is as flimsy an agreement as it was on the previous occasion, but upon this occasion I propose to state my views upon the land question, despite interruptions, and I rejoice that I have an opportunity of doing so.
    As I was saying, when some references to professions drew the attention of hon. Members opposite, there are certain reasons why it is essential to good
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    government that we should have a valuation. It surprises me to find the unanimity upon the benches opposite against keeping up the valuation now, because a few years ago the whole of the Conservative Members for Liverpool were pledged to the taxation of land values. These pledges drift and fade but that cannot alter the fact of the matter, and that is, that this tremendous opposition to the taxation of land values and the valuation upon which the valuation of the land values will be based is quite a modern thing. Judging from certain things we have heard to-night, it is a question which is not in the least understood by certain hon. Members opposite. One hon. Member said that he had been for some years chairman of a parish council, and had reached other high office, and that he could not see what the question of getting the capital value of land could possibly have to do with rating.
    Then he proceeded to denounce the rating of land values. Of course, until you have got a valuation of the unimproved land value of this country, you cannot alter your rating system to try even experiments in the direction in which most of our Colonies have gone. You cannot fairly tackle the question of the public purchase of land in any direction. You cannot nationalise land, either wholly or partly. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] As a matter of fact, the mere destruction of this valuation will not alter the fact that we can easily get another one within 12 months. I do not weep for this valuation, but I want to draw attention to the real motives underlying this attack which has been made on the present system of valuation; not because I think that this valuation was the best that, could be got, or that we cannot get another, but because I want to point out that this refusal to allow the country to know the value of its own land has a very sinister purpose underlying it. The reason why they do not want us to keep the valuation of land up to date is, not a public purpose but a private purpose; for the reason that it is inconsistent with good government not to keep the valuation of land up to date.
    Hon. Members have talked as though we, on these benches, are in some way responsible for or wedded to the Land Clauses of the famous Budget of 1909–10.

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    Not at all. Although many people put down a great deal of the land reform in those years to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, there were a great many people concerned in that public campaign for getting a valuation in this country, and the real leader in that campaign, as I always thought, was the great Lord Advocate, now Lord Strathclyde. When these Land Clauses were brought into the Budget, the men who had been doing the fighting upon this question, almost without exception, denounced the Land Taxes as being singularly inefficient, and likely to prove quite ineffective; but they said, "They are worth having, because they carry with them a valuation." We supported them all through the fight in the country and here, because they carried the valuation. The valuation we regarded as being absolutely essential The mere fact that the taxes have gone is a matter of no importance at all, because, although the valuation costs a great deal of money—a great deal too much money, it could have been done much quicker and much cheaper—we got a very thorough valuation, which was almost complete when the War began.
    When the War began, I remember—I think I can see opposite me now certain hon. Members, one particularly, who spoke on the question—they actually suspended at that time the valuation, on the ground that to value the land of the country might be considered a party question during War time. As a result, no use of the valuation was made. We looked for more money in this and in that direction, but no attempt whatever was made during the War to use the swollen land values as a contribution to the great expenses of the War. Now that the War is over, without any full consideration, without even listening to the arguments such as have been put forward by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain), the whole of this valuation is to be undermined and largely made ineffective, practically without any discussion at all, and merely to satisfy the prejudices of a certain number of people against having a valuation of land, because you are able to make effective use of that valuation in a number of public managements.
    Supposing that we do reach a stage at which we get rid of this particular
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    Government—and I have no doubt some day we shall—is it not better, even in the interests of hon. Members of the Conservative party, that we should have an up-to-date valuation made during their term of office, brought up to date during their term of office, without the slightest taint of bias of partisanship. Is it not better to have that upon which to base new schemes of taxation, rating, or nationalisation, than to have a totally new system brought about in a hurry? If hon. Members imagine for one moment that they are going to stay the course of progress in this country by leaving us without a valuation when we come in, they never made a greater mistake in their lives. Our Colonies all show us how to do it, and country after country has shown us how to do it. Hon. Members opposite may ask what countries have told us how to do it, and one hon. Member has pointed out how Denmark has flourished without a system. I advise hon. Members to read the recent history of Denmark. Most of our Colonies, in one part or another, have tried successfully the very system which is a sort of nightmare at the present time to large numbers of hon. Members opposite.
    Why is it a nightmare? The taxation of land values is not Socialism—they seem terrified at Socialism—it is not in any way inconsistent with enlightened individualism. They are against even making the best of their own system. They are only too ready to attack anyone on these benches, and to say they are Socialists, and Bolshevists, and all the rest, because they propose to see that the great values, created by the people, go to the people, and to a number of private speculators. It is not necessarily part of the Socialist creed at all. It is not in any way inconsistent with the creed that many of them profess, and I am amazed when I hear an hon. Member, representing a Division of Manchester, informing us that, as an industrialist, he is against the taxation of land values. Why? I should like to put, quite shortly, two or three points—
    Mr. BALFOUR: On a point of Order. Is this relevant to the subject?
    Mr. SPEAKER: If this is a discussion on the merits of the taxation of land values, it would be quite out of place on this occasion. Of course, it is quite in

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    order to deal with the value of this registration as a matter of machinery, but I foresee other long speeches on the subject of the merits of the taxation of land values if we get on to that line.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: In your absence, Sir, Mr. Deputy-Speaker did say that we were to be allowed to cover all this ground, and others have covered it.
    Mr. BALFOUR: No!
    Mr. HEMMERDE: It was at a moment when the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Balfour) was not in the House. I have been here the whole time, but the hon. Member has hardly been here for 10 minutes. Mr. Deputy-Speaker did say that, in answer to a question.
    Mr. BALFOUR: On that point of Order. It is quite true I had to leave the House for a certain short time, but I have listened to the Debate.
    Is the discussion to range over the whole question of taxation of land values? It is entirely dissociated from land values, which is entirely different from the question of purchase or sale agreement.
    Mr. FOOT: The matter was discussed by the hon. Member for Royton (Sir W. Sugden) who was discussing the possibility of the taxation of land values. I rose to a point of Order, and asked whether that general question could be discussed having regard to the Amendment before the House. Mr. Deputy-Speaker ruled that generally it could be discussed.
    Sir F. BANBURY: What Mr. Deputy-Speaker said was that he understood it had been arranged that wide latitude should be given. That is a very different thing.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid I must take my own line. The relation of the registration to the valuation system is certainly in order. The two things can hardly be separated, but the whole Debate has been on the question of how far the registration is necessary to efficiency of the valuation. I do not think we ought to go from that to the question which is not really involved here—the merits or demerits of the taxation of land values.
    Mr. HEMMERDE: I bow, Sir, to your ruling, but I was only going to answer speeches made in this House to-night
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    Within the four corners of your ruling I shall not endeavour to do so. There will be many other opportunities of developing arguments on this question. There were certain statements made by half a dozen speakers which I should have liked very much to answer to-night, but as I am not able to do so I would ask hon. Members opposite, in reference to the general question, to ask themselves why, although a Government Department has actually advised the Minister that registration of these operations is desirable, we are not to have that registration carried on? Can anybody doubt that the valuation will not only be made much less efficiently, but will ultimately decay, if we are not to have such a registration as was provided before this snap Division the other night?
    I know that it is useless at this time of the Debate to make any appeals to the Government. Many of us, and I say it in the Prime Minister's presence, relying absolutely on his word, and the arrangement which we thought was made, were absent when this snap Division took place. Advantage is being taken of something that happened utterly contrary to the understanding with Members of this House. As one who pressed on the 1906 Government, which was not always very willing, the vital importance of this full, up-to-date valuation, I should be false to the principles which I professed then if I did not take this opportunity of making this protest. The line taken by the Prime Minister seems to me to strike at the root of all those honourable understandings which Members of this House have always been willing to stand by. Here we find what, to many of us, is one of the most vital things in our whole political life taken away at an hour when every one of us thought that we were free from any such attack, and taken away by what we cannot help thinking is a means unworthy of any proper Government in this House.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: The whole question which the House has now to decide is, first, whether the valuation which we have been discussing is really necessary, and secondly, whether the method by which that valuation has been compiled, with the assistance of these particulars and on the basis of which it was originally prepared, is the kind of valuation which this House or any of its successors could accept as sound. On that point I would first say

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    that the original basis of the valuation was not, as has been claimed by the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), ever accepted as having been made in a manner which could possibly endure. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs rightly said that there was nothing dishonest in the way the valuation was made. There was nothing actually dishonest, and I have never made such an imputation, even in these long Debates. This Debate seems to be an echo of the many long hours of discussion devoted in 1909–1910 to fighting these extraordinary proposals. But, although the valuation was not dishonest, it was extraordinarily foolish. I remember very well an incident which occurred when my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham, in criticising these valuation methods, mentioned a case in which one of the extremely honest but not very wise valuers was going up and down a rural area counting the trees in the hedgerows, and when asked for what purpose he was doing so said he was counting the trees in order to add their value to the valuation, and added that when he had counted a few average hedgerows he took the number of trees and averaged them out for the different hedgerows of the country. When asked how he valued the wood, the answer was, "Oh, they count the trees in an average acre. That is the way they value the wood."
    A valuation conducted by such methods can have very little value. But let me treat the matter on much wider ground. The original scheme of the valuation was that the valuers had to go, with such information as they possessed, and to put a value upon every unit of land or houses, or land and houses, in the country. That valuation had to be served on the owner. The owner had then to state whether or not he agreed with the figures. When the owner's estimate had been received an arrangement had to be arrived at between the two, that is to say, between the owner and the Government official. Will the House believe that, so far from this valuation—which is to be the basis of the whole of the future operations of either party on the opposite benches—having been completed in all its stages, in 322,000 cases of units of valuation the valuation was never even served on the owner. Therefore, these valuations are merely embryos. They are caterpillars; they are not even in the chrysalis state.
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    To treat them as though they were mature insects, which in future were to produce things of beauty for hon. Gentlemen opposite, is stretching the imagination much too far. What I am sure that hon. Members on this side are afraid of is that this sham valuation is to be used and that a pretence is to be made that these particulars have enabled the Valuation Department to keep the values up to date. Then, when hon. Gentlemen opposite get—if they ever do get—into a position where they can attempt to impose taxes, they will say, "Here we have an up-to-date valuation." It is absolutely necessary, therefore, to get rid of this sham and of the continuance of these particulars, which would enable a sham valuation to be presented as a real one, for motives which, to my mind, are most injurious to the whole community.
    I most strongly endorse a statement made from this side of the House that just as the old taxes broke down, so the new taxes will break down on the question of the unit. You have a unit constantly changing, and the valuation of one unit is no criterion as to the value when a re-distribution of units has taken place. Therefore, again you will have your valuation breaking down on the old question of the unit. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have put this forward as if this valuation were going to be of assistance to them in introducing a system of taxes which is going to help to abolish slums and improve the conditions of the people. Every one of those claims was made in much more eloquent language by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs. Nothing could be a greater contrast than the contemptuous manner in which hon. Gentlemen opposite now speak of the taxation plan of 1909–10, and of the extraordinary anticipations which were held out by the authors of that plan, as to the benefits which these taxes were going to confer upon the community. I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that no language which they can find to describe the advantages of some new method of taxation—which will probably prove worse than the old one—can be anything like as glowing as the language used in the Autumn of 1909–10. Hon. Gentlemen now look back to the advantages which were then held out, and tell us that these really excited the

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    country into the hope of this "rare and refreshing fruit" for not less than two years—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I intervened just now when the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Hemmerde) was speaking on that very question, and at the same time, I had my eye on the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman).
    Mr. PRETYMAN: I abide by your decision, but if I may venture to remind you, Sir, every word I said was in definite answer to what had been said from the other side of the House. You, Sir, were not here when those remarks were made, and I bow to your ruling. The suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) has been strongly enforced. It is perfectly clear that the country is faced with a direct determination on the part of both parties opposite to use this valuation for the purpose of reimposing land valuation. I do not wish to weary the House, but I have here a quotation from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Read it!"]—and numerous statements on the part of hon. Gentlemen representing the Labour party. The manifesto issued by the Independent Liberal Party on the 21st October, 1922, refers to
    "a comprehensive reform of the existing land system, including the taxation and rating of land values."
    The manifesto of the Labour party on the same date says:
    "Taxation of land values will secure to the community the socially created wealth now diverted to private hands."
    Mr. HEMMERDE: You will find that in Lord Balfour's Election Address of 1906.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: Then we have the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley saying:
    "I am particularly glad to think that the Valuation Department will continue to keep a record of sales and other transactions, and that when the resurrection or duties takes place, as I am sure it will, we shall find it in existence and still actively working."
    It is therefore perfectly clear that the objection of hon. Gentlemen opposite, both above and below the Gangway, is to use this valuation for the imposition of a system which we believe, not on
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    private but on public grounds, to be most injurious to the life of the community. There would have been hundreds of thousands more houses to-day if it had not been for this legislation. Since then we have spent £8,000,000,000 on a War. We cannot afford any more experiments of that kind, and I say it is the bounden duty of every one on this side who realises that fact, to do nothing to encourage and to do everything to prevent any opportunity being given to hon. Members opposite to reintroduce disastrous legislation of that kind. The hon. and learned Member for Crewe said it did not matter and that it would delay them for only 12 months. I suggest that it would take less than 12 months for the country to find them out. Unlike the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, I attach the utmost value to putting every possible impediment in the way of legislation of that kind, and I also attach enormous importance to getting rid of these particulars at the earliest possible moment, because the earlier they are got rid of, the less it will be possible to claim that they have kept the valuation up to date.
    Mr. J. JONES: The cat is out of the bag now.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: No. The hon. Members opposite take the view that this valuation is going to serve a beneficial purpose. We take the view that it is going to serve a disastrous purpose. That is the whole point between us.
    Mr. LANSBURY: Landlords!
    Mr. PRETYMAN: No, on public grounds. We think that, after all, practice is better than theory. I consider that one of the most unfortunate things which has ever happened in politics in this country is that at this time, when we have been so pressed to find new methods of taxation, if it had not been for the practical lesson which the country learned when these taxes were imposed in 1909–10, we should certainly have had this disastrous experiment now, when it would have been far more injurious than it was at that time. The country has learned a lesson. I suggest to hon. Members all over the House that to dally with this thing at all is bad policy. We have got to let it be thoroughly understood that we are definitely against any attempt to renew that disastrous policy,

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    and anything that we can do at all, to legislate or to repeal legislation, which will prevent that experiment being attempted again, we will do. That is the point of view which I take, and I state it boldly to the House, because I believe it to be an absolutely sound view.
    I associate myself entirely with those hon. Members who have spoken and who say that there must be a Valuation Department. I have said it over and over again to this House. I have never attempted to abolish the Valuation Department, and I never will advocate the abolition of a Valuation Department. I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that a Committee is considering the matter of whether this Valuation Department in its present form should be continued, but I did not understand him to suggest that there should not be some Government Valuation Department in some form or another. The Government have large interests in the country and must have a land agency, the same as any private individual who owns land does; they must have an expert staff who will value for Death Duties, and, whenever the Government have land transfers, either for sale or purchase or lease, act as their technical advisers. That is a perfectly right thing, which I should be the last in any sense to oppose, but may I point out—and that is why I interrupted the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs when he spoke—that the right hon. Gentleman himself had actually created a Valuation Department for this purpose in 1909? When he introduced his Budget for 1909–10, I have the most accurate recollection of his getting up and claiming how much this Valuation Department had already done in securing that Death Duties should be paid on the full value, and that inadequate returns could no longer be rendered, and he gave figures which showed that something like three per cent., he claimed, had been gained in the matter of that valuation.
    There were then no particulars of this kind. There was no question of any general valuation, with all the other consequences—simply a question of the Land Valuation Department. There we are agreed perfectly. As the abolition of these costly, dangerous, mischevious particulars that add in no sense to the
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    real efficiency of the Valuation Department, the latter is not any way affected. On the other hand, I suggest that if a Valuation Department is to appeal to the country then it is necessary that it should have the confidence of both sides, of both the Government which employs it and of the landowners and of the property owners who are concerned with it. So long as hon. Members opposite hold it up that this Land Valuation Department mainly exists, and ought to be employed, on what all land and property owners consider to be a predatory scheme of land valuation, it is impossible that it should have the confidence of those who are concerned in the ownership and the dealing with land.
    As an individual I should like to give my testimony, so far as my experience goes, that the district valuers concerned in making these valuations carry out their work in a satisfactory way, and they should inspire every confidence in the persons with whom they have to deal. Therefore, it is more desirable that when you have got a capable staff of this description you should give them proper work to do, and not employ them in nefarious work. I could quote figures to show that what is claimed for this in the shape of increased Death Duties and the sale of and purchase of land, as being due to the valuers, is largely an illusion. I think I could show that for every £ claimed to be gained from this valuation in Death Duties, £2 10s. has gone in the expense of the Department. Therefore, add that to the £500,000 which is now spent in legal expenses, and the country does not get one single penny as suggested. Therefore, I hope the Resolution before the House will be adhered to.
    Sir ALFRED MOND: I have no intention of going into the very irrelevant speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman). As a matter of fact, the last part of his speech entirely destroyed the first. The Financial Secretary said earlier in the Debate, in relation to the Valuation Department, that he considers these returns that have been spoken of to be useful to the Department in order to enable them to carry out their functions properly. If, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman who last spoke is sincere in desiring the Government should have a

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    proper Valuation Department, the only conclusion we can come to is, that he should vote for the Amendment for the omission of the Clause. Whether the taxation or the rating of land values will or will not take place, whether certain returns will or will not continue to be made if the Land Valuation Department continues to do its work, which I understand it will do, whether returns are made or not, the Solicitor-General, who spoke earlier in the Debate put an entirely different point, which is, that the Valuation Department had no use for these returns, because they were entirely useless and they could do their work much better than without it, and that, therefore, they could be done away with. If that is the way the Valuation Department will keep up the returns, then all the consequences which terrifies the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford will follow just as certainly whatever party comes into office. The root idea of taxing and rating unimproved land values will, I hope, always remain a cardinal part of our faith.
    What is the position of the Government in this matter? Evidently, when this question came up before the Government did not share the panic-striken views which we have just heard expressed. The Financial Secretary asked that this Clause should be left undisturbed. When I was at the Office of Works, which is the Department concerned with the acquisition and hiring of land for the Government, we derived the greatest possible benefit from the information we were able to obtain at the Land Valuation Department. If those returns are of any value, how can the representative of the Government claim that they should be done away with. No great public economy is claimed for this proposal. The sum of £15,000 has been mentioned as the amount that would be saved by the abolition of this Department. Something has been said about a saving of £500,000, but that is not a public expenditure. It is a legal expense incurred, not by those who are dealing in land, but it consists of expenses charged by solicitors. The Financial Secretary, in his speech, let the cat out of the bag because he said that all this information is available, and it enables them to make a more accurate valuation of land when the State or local authority requires to buy land.
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    Then the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to say, "The dice are loaded, not against the public or the people, but against the landowner." My point is that the dice have been loaded long enough the other way.
    What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by saying that the dice are loaded? Does he mean that the more accurate the information which the Government can obtain does not enable them to pay a fair price for the land which is acquired? The Financial Secretary is one of the guardians of the public purse, and he ought to see that land is bought for the Government at the lowest price. [An HON. MEMBER: "At an honest price!"] Yes, certainly, at an honest price. Why should the Government not have all this information to be able to check the price when they want to buy land because by obtaining this information from the Valuation Department they can see whether they are getting the land at a fair price. It is most important that the local authorities should have this information. It is well known that when local authorities wish to acquire any property they are asked a higher price than was put upon it before it was known that they required it. It is well known private persons are employed to negotiate so that the public authority may not appear and thus buy more cheaply. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman did not consider in the heat of debate the exact meaning when he said the dice were loaded. We want the dice loaded on behalf of the public and of the taxpayer. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) made a very impressive speech. He has had great experience at the Treasury and he is quite convinced of the necessity and soundness of the returns made and of the assistance they give. I am sorry his weighty words carried so little weight with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I hope they will have more weight with the House. At any rate, we can be no parties to loading the dice against the people.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: A discussion on land generally seems to revive interest in the House of Commons, and it is remarkable to see how everybody has turned up to witness the funeral of the Valuation Department. Having

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    listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) it seems to me the public hangman ought to be called in rather than the House of Commons to deal with this horrible matter. When he was describing his historical researches into the previous black history of this valuation, when he was describing the counting of trees and of hedgerows, when he was indulging in his anecdotage of fifty years, did he realise that by his Vote to-night he is forcing a new Government when it comes into power to make use, precisely, of that rotten old valuation on which he pours such scorn, and taking away from it the only opportunity of having a real valuation and a record of real sales so that the Valuation Department can know at what figures property changes hands as between a willing seller and a willing buyer, as a basis for an honest valuation instead of the one which he condemns. I leave it to be assumed that I am in favour of the taxation of land values, but not more so than anyone behind me, especially after the exhibition we have had to-night.
    On this occasion I propose to argue in favour of the retention of this particular power of the Valuation Department solely from the point of view of the interests of the public taxpayer and of honesty. We know quite well that, although the Valuation Department may be continued, yet by the passage of this Clause it will be deprived of its power of checking the prices charged by landlords to public authorities generally and also of checking the declaration as to the amount of real estate of deceased persons. For these two purposes every authority who has studied the question has pointed out the admirable service rendered by the Valuation Department. Every responsible Member on the bench opposite, and every inquiry that has been conducted, has been convinced that in screwing up the Death Duties on real estate the Valuation Department has recovered millions for the taxpayer. I believe the sum has been put at 45 millions. The exact value of the services of the Department to local authorities in the purchase of land cannot possibly be stated, but undoubtedly it is represented by millions of pounds, and for both these purposes the Department has rendered most valuable services to the
    394
    State. Not only has it recovered revenue, but what is, in my opinion, far more important, it has prevented fraud, the understatement of the value of receipts of estates, and people whose land is required by the public getting excessive prices, amounting to blackmail, out of the public authority purchasing the land. Let me give one example. Some time ago now the Borough of Poplar was buying land for housing. The land they required was offered to them at £6,500. They looked up the valuation of that land for Death Duty purposes, and found in the register of the Valuation Department that it had been valued for Death Duty purposes at £2,400, as against £6,500. Owing to the existence of the Valuation Department and its records, which you are now seeking to tear up, that local authority was able to force the landlord finally, after three years' delay in starting the housing scheme, down from £6,500 to £3,000. That is only one solid instance.
    Mr. PRETYMAN: If this Clause be carried that will not in the slightest interfere with the Death Duty valuation or the records.
    Colonel WEDGWOOD: I know it will not interfere with the Death Duty valuation, but it will prevent it being screwed up to the real figure and will prevent the even more valuable records of actual purchase and sale being recorded as a cheek on these extortionate prices. There you are not merely saving the pocket of the public but you are also securing justice as between one taxpayer and the other. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury and Solicitor-General in making their defence of the Government volte face on this matter said the Department would remain as before, that the operations of the Department would remain as before, that the information at the disposal of the Department would remain not as before but would be as extensive as that enjoyed by any other valuation office in the country.
    As the hon. Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond) pointed out, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in the most amazing passage, said that after all that would prevent the scales being weighted against the unfortunate landlord. What does that mean? It means that he is positively depriving the public of an opportunity of preventing itself being

    395
    swindled. He might just as well ask the Home Secretary to get up and abolish the power of the police to take finger prints because that weighted the dice against the unfortunate criminal. If that is the case, let anarchy reign supreme, but even the bureaucracy in this country must require some weapons to prevent their being swindled by evil-doers. In this case I do think the Valuation Department has been an admitted success up to now, owing to its powers to get information as to sales and transfers that take place. Information of these sales is the absolute guarantee of the price of that particular property, and from the posssession of the general facts of what property is selling at every Valuation Department can make out a stronger case for their estimate of what the value of any neighbouring property should be. You are taking that weapon away from them, and just at a time when it will be particularly needed, because these unemployment schemes that we have before us now, and particularly schemes for new roads and new canals, all involve extensive land purchase, and up to the present time the Valuation Department has been invaluable in keeping down the price. Take the road from Manchester to Liverpool. By the use of the Valuation Department the landlords were settled with on that route without, I believe, in any case going before an arbitration board. The information in the possession of the Valuation Department enabled them to deal with the landlords along that route, and made that road possible. If that road and other similar roads are made, it will be largely due to the fact that the local authorities concerned were able to get the land at a reasonable price, because they had the Valuation Department behind them coaching them ms to the price which they ought to pay. Exactly the same thing applies to housing schemes. Now the Government come forward—or rather, the supporters of the Government, because the Government itself is quite passive in the matter—and show their keenness on these schemes for helping unemployment and providing useful, productive work, by hamstringing them.
    This really illustrates completely the difference between the two sides of the House. Every argument we have heard throughout the day from the other side
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    of the House has been an argument in favour of property securing its just rights. Every argument from this side has been an argument in favour of justice to the taxpayer, and property, seeing itself attacked, has turned up in greater numbers than ever before on a discussion in connection with this Budget. This has been the meat in the Budget—something for the landlords, something for property. Yesterday, upstairs, the landlords of Scotland managed to get out of the taxpayers' pocket a promise of £300,000 a year, under the guise of the Agricultural Rates Act, to be paid directly into the pockets of the landlords year by year. They admit it, and glory in it. Now they come and ask for more. Abolish the Valuation Department, they say, and keep no check upon us. The Government comes to heel obedient to the voice behind it—the effective voice. They bow the knee to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), and accept the abolition of the Valuation Department, which they have sworn to defend. Where is it going to stop? They are looking after their friends. Let them only carry on that policy long enough, and I think that at the next Election their friends may see grounds for regretting it.
    11.0 P.M.
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I do not often find myself a little out of sympathy with the atmosphere of this House of Commons, but I confess to-night that I find it very difficult to feel any of the enthusiasm which has been manifested now on one side, and now on another of the House. It must be a great puzzle to new embers of the House who have not taken part in the historic struggles, the recollection of which has evidently been aroused by some remarks which have been bandied across the Floor that the debate has been conducted, "to the music of trumpets and shawms." I am afraid my contribution will be rather on muted strings. What is it that we really are discussing to-night? We are discussing whether or not we shall continue the registration of certain sales and leases by communicating particulars to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue—that and nothing else. We come to be discussing that because of a Division which took place on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, and I would say, with all respect to the hon. Member

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    for Crewe (Mr. Hemmerde), who was not then in the House, that he is entirely in error in accusing this side or any side in the House of a breach of faith that night. I would only refer to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Central Newcastle (Mr. Trevelyn), who, that night, was on the Front Opposition Bench, and he will see that I have justification for what I say. When the Division took place on the subject we are now discussing, by a free vote, the House decided by a large majority in a particular way, and it was the particular way against which the representative of the Government had been advising. I am a comparatively inexperienced Member of Parliament, and I looked to precedents to see what was done in similar cases, and I found when a still worse disaster occurred to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir R. Horne) two years ago, in the matter of the co-operative societies, with the Government Whips on, the right hon. Gentleman the. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) accepted the verdict of the House, and we too accepted the verdict, of the House.
    That is the history of the Debate, but there is a little history attached to the remnants of this Clause of the 1909 Act, and I wish to say a word about that. I think really there were two reasons for keeping on this fragment of that Clause. One was the genuine feeling that we all had, in the Government of that time, that something should be left, and something for which good reasons might be given. That was a genuine feeling on my part. It was a portion of the Clause on which I think anyone who knows will agree with me that good reasons could be given on the other side. That was one of the things that surprised me about the amount of feeling that has been shown in the Debate to-night, because the matter, after all, if you can only dissociate it from its historical setting, is one of the very smallest importance. That, I think, I shall be able to show. It is true that, in 1920, there were reasons for continuing this registration which do not exist to-day. We were then at a time of the most wonderfully fluctuating values that had ever been seen, and it could be fairly put forward, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham put it forward at the time, that that was a reason for the time
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    being for maintaining that Section. Everything else of the 1909 Budget disappeared, and I only mention that because it was of great interest to me to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for West Swansea (Sir A. Mond)—who has a first-class brain, if nobody else in this House has, and who was one who acquiesced in the destruction of that Section—saying to-night that site values formed the cardinal article in his creed. I wondered what was the cardinal article of a man's creed. I know now that it means a plant of three years' growth. It is perfectly true what my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham, said, and what the Leader of the Labour party, the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr Lloyd George), and others have said, that the Valuation Department has done a most valuable work. "Really valuable service to the State" was the phrase used by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. I quite agree with that. It is true that considerable sums of money—it is difficult to estimate them—have been saved to the country by that Department, but he would be a bold man who would say, without fear of contradiction, that those savings have been made by the Valuation Department absolutely by reason of the registration which we are proposing to bring to an end.
    The Valuation Department will go on. I have been at particular pains to discuss this matter with my advisers, because had I been convinced, in the interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage, that the insertion of this Clause would really imperil the cause that we all have at heart—that is, to save the taxpayer as far as we can—I should have taken a different attitude to-night. I am convinced from the inquiries I have made that the efficiency of the Department will not be impaired. It is quite true that it is always easier to proceed with the machinery that you have. When you have machinery that is working you do not like to change; but when you have to change it, you adapt yourself, and unless your adaptation leaves you in a far worse, or even in a worse condition, there is not the strong case that there otherwise would be for trying to reverse a decision which was taken in an open vote, and by a substantial majority. As I do not propose to enter into any of the historic questions connected with this

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    subject which have formed the staple of so many speeches during this Debate, but to confine myself, as I have done, purely to the matter in hand, I fear that it is impossible to make a longer speech. I recommend the House, honestly and sincerely, to follow the course which has been proposed by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary.
    Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: I want to say a very few words. The Prime Minister has the gift of imparting an atmosphere of calm reason into our Debates which is shared by very few Members of this House. I do not think it is shared by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and I am sure I do not share it myself. What is the right hon. Gentleman's case? His first case is this. He says that when the Government were defeated on the vote on the co-operative societies' Income Tax they considered it their duty to bow to the will of the House. This is not in pari materia at all. That was a defeat deliberately inflicted on the Government, against the Government Whips, by the House of Commons. This is nothing of the kind. This is a vote which was snatched—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to a hearing, and I would ask hon. Members to listen to what he has got to say.
    Captain BENN: I am not saying anything that I think is even controversial. This was a vote which was given at a time when controversy was supposed to have ceased, on a Motion by a private Member, and the Question was put without any discussion at all. Therefore, for the Prime Minister to say that that must be regarded in the same serious way as a deliberate defeat inflicted on the Government and the Government Whips, I do not think is an argument which really will bear examination. The Prime Minister's third point was that in 1920 the circumstances were exceptional, and that, therefore, we must not be guided by what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain) then, and repeated with great manliness by him to-night in the Debate. This is not the case. He says that to take away from the Valuation
    400
    Department these few powers will not impair the efficiency of the Department as a revenue collecting instrument. Let us see, however, what the then Solicitor-General, the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division (Sir Leslie Scott), said in 1920—not 1922. It was the very reverse. He said:
    "This Department cannot function properly unless it is supplied with the kind of information contained in what are called 'particulars delivered.'"
    Impressed by that view, nearly all the Members—50 per cent. of the hon. Gentlemen who are now going into the Lobby to destroy this Department—went into the Lobby to defend it, because, as he said, it was necessary. It is not necessary to take them individually, but many of them would not deny that was the view which they took. The view expressed by the Solicitor-General only twelve months ago was reiterated by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury only a week ago. He also said:
    "To make such an alteration as this would have a very real effect upon the activities of the Land Valuation Department."
    So there is a weight of evidence, from the evidence of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham to that of the Solicitor-General, in June, last year, reinforced by the evidence of the Financial Secretary himself, which led the House to believe that he was going to vote against the insertion of the Clause, to show that this Department is necessary to collect money. The Prime Minister, in his very temperate speech, did not deny that this Department will add considerably to the revenue that is collected in Death Duties, and will reduce considerably the price of land purchase for public purposes. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury did not deny it either. What he said was, I do not care about the revenue. I am prepared to sacrifice the chance of revenue, provided that I can make a little more secure the political position which I hold, and can put a little further into the future a system of fiscal taxation, namely, the taxation of land values, to which I object. That was his entire case. He was willing to sacrifice the revenue in order that his political views might prevail a little longer. In these circumstances I trust that the House will adopt

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    the Budget, in this particular, as originally proposed by the Government itself, and refuse to accept the Clause which has been inserted in the manner that has been described.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 187.

    Division No. 266.]

    AYES.

    [11.15 p.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

    Dixon, Capt. H. (Belfast, E.)

    Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)

    Ainsworth, Captain Charles

    Dixon, C. H. (Rutland)

    Kennedy, Captain M. S. Nigel

    Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East)

    Dudgeon, Major C. R.

    King, Captain Henry Douglas

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

    Kinloch-Cooké, Sir Clement

    Apsley, Lord

    Edmondson, Major A. J.

    Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.

    Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin

    Ednam, Viscount

    Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)

    Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfred W.

    Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

    Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

    Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)

    Ellis, R. G.

    Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.

    Astor, Viscountess

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Lorden, John William

    Austin, Sir Herbert

    Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.

    Lorimer, H. D.

    Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence

    Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.)

    Lort-Williams, J.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.

    Lougher, L.

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Fawkes, Major F. H.

    Lumley, L. R.

    Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague

    Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

    Barnett, Major Richard W.

    Flanagan, W. H.

    Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-

    Barnston, Major Harry

    Ford, Patrick Johnston

    Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

    Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

    Foreman, Sir Henry

    Margesson, H. D. R.

    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

    Forestier-Walker, L.

    Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

    Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

    Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

    Mercer, Colonel H.

    Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks)

    Fraser, Major Sir Keith

    Milne, J. S. Wardlaw

    Berry, Sir George

    Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

    Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)

    Betterton, Henry B.

    Furness, G. J.

    Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

    Birchall, Major J. Dearman

    Galbraith, J. F. W.

    Molloy, Major L. G. S.

    Blades, Sir George Rowland

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Morden, Col. W. Grant

    Blundell, F. N.

    Garland, C. S.

    Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury)

    Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.

    Gates, Percy

    Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

    Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.

    Murchison, C. K.

    Brass, Captain W.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nall, Major Joseph

    Brassey, Sir Leonard

    Goff, Sir R. Park

    Nesbitt, Robert C.

    Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

    Gould, James C.

    Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

    Briggs, Harold

    Greaves-Lord, Walter

    Newson, Sir Percy Wilson

    Brittain, Sir Harry

    Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)

    Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

    Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham)

    Greenwood, William (Stockport)

    Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)

    Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)

    Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

    Bruton, Sir James

    Gretton, Colonel John

    Nield, Sir Herbert

    Buckingham, Sir H.

    Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    Gwynne, Rupert S.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

    Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

    Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

    Paget, T. G.

    Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew

    Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

    Parker, Owen (Kettering)

    Burney, Com. (Middx., Uxbridge)

    Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

    Pease, William Edwin

    Butcher, Sir John George

    Halstead, Major D.

    Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)

    Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)

    Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)

    Perkins, Colonel E. K.

    Butt, Sir Alfred

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Perring, William George

    Button, H. S.

    Harrison, F. C.

    Pielou, D. P.

    Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

    Harvey, Major S. E.

    Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Henn, Sir Sydney H.

    Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

    Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

    Privett, F. J.

    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

    Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

    Raine, W.

    Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton

    Herbert, S. (Scarborough)

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel

    Chapman, Sir S.

    Hewett, Sir J. P.

    Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)

    Chilcott, Sir Warden

    Hiley, Sir Ernest

    Reid, D. D. (County Down)

    Churchman, Sir Arthur

    Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

    Remer, J. R.

    Clarry, Reginald George

    Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)

    Remnant, Sir James

    Clayton, G. C.

    Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

    Rentoul, G. S.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Hood, Sir Joseph

    Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P.

    Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.

    Hopkins, John W. W.

    Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)

    Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

    Houfton, John Plowright

    Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)

    Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

    Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)

    Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

    Cope, Major William

    Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.

    Robertson-Despencer, Major (Islgtn, W)

    Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

    Hudson, Capt. A.

    Rothschild, Lionel de

    Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

    Hume, G. H.

    Roundell, Colonel R. F.

    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

    Ruggles-Brise, Major E.

    Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

    Hurd, Percy A.

    Russell, William (Bolton)

    Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)

    Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)

    Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney

    Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

    Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove)

    Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

    Curzon, Captain Viscout

    Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

    Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

    Sanderson, Sir Frank B.

    Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)

    James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

    Sandon, Lord

    Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

    Jephcott, A. R.

    Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

    Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

    Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul

    Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

    Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

    Johnson, Sir L. (Walthamstow, E.)

    Shepperson, E. W.

    Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

    Jones G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

    Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

    Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.

    Skelton, A. N.

    Thorpe, Captain John Henry

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Winterton, Earl

    Smith, Sir Harold (Wavertree)

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Wise, Frederick

    Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

    Tubbs, S. W.

    Wolmer, Viscount

    Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)

    Turton, Edmund Russborough

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

    Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.

    Wallace, Captain E.

    Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

    Stanley Lord

    Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

    Woodcock, Colonel H. C.

    Steel, Major S. Strang

    Watts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)

    Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

    Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)

    Wells, S. R.

    Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward

    Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth

    Weston, Colonel John Wakefield

    Yerburgh, R. D. T.

    Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser

    White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.

    Whitla, Sir William

    Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel

    Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

    Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)

    Gibbs.

    Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

    Hardie, George D.

    Ponsonby, Arthur

    Adamson, Rt. Hon. William

    Harney, E. A.

    Potts, John S.

    Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

    Harris, Percy A.

    Price, E. G.

    Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

    Hartshorn, Vernon

    Pringle, W. M. R.

    Ammon, Charles George

    Hastings, Patrick

    Rees, Sir Beddoe

    Attlee, C. R.

    Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart)

    Richards, R.

    Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

    Hayday, Arthur

    Riley, Ben

    Barnes, A.

    Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)

    Ritson, J.

    Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)

    Hemmerde, E. G.

    Roberts, C. H. (Derby)

    Batey, Joseph

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)

    Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

    Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

    Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh)

    Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)

    Berkeley, Captain Reginald

    Herriotts, J.

    Rose, Frank H.

    Bonwick, A.

    Hill, A.

    Royce, William Stapleton

    Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

    Hillary, A. E.

    Saklatvala, S.

    Broad, F. A.

    Hinds, John

    Salter, Dr. A.

    Bromfield, William

    Hirst, G. H.

    Scrymgeour, E.

    Brotherton, J.

    Hodge, Lieut.-Colonel J. P. (Preston)

    Sexton, James

    Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

    Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy)

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Buckie, J.

    Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath

    Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

    Burgess, S.

    John, William (Rhondda, West)

    Shinwell, Emanuel

    Burnie, Major J. (Bootle)

    Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)

    Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

    Buxton, Charles (Accrington)

    Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)

    Simpson, J. Hope

    Chapple, W. A.

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Sinclair, Sir A.

    Charleton, H. C.

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Sitch, Charles H.

    Clarke, Sir E. C.

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Smith, T. (Pontefract)

    Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)

    Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)

    Snell, Harry

    Collins, Pat (Walsall)

    Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)

    Snowden, Philip

    Collison, Levi

    Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools

    Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.

    Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell

    Kenyon, Barnet

    Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)

    Darbishire, C. W.

    Lansbury, George

    Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.

    Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)

    Lawson, John James

    Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

    Davies, J. C. (Denbigh, Denbigh)

    Leach, W.

    Strauss, Edward Anthony

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lee, F.

    Sullivan, J.

    Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

    Linfield, F. C.

    Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Duffy, T. Gavan

    Lowth, T.

    Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

    Duncan, C.

    Lunn, William

    Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

    Dunnico, H.

    Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

    Thornton, M.

    Ede, James Chuter

    McCurdy, Rt. Hon. Charles A.

    Trevelyan, C. P.

    Edge, Captain Sir William

    MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)

    Turner, Ben

    Edmonds, G.

    Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

    Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty

    M'Entee, V. L.

    Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)

    England, Lieut.-Colonel A.

    McLaren, Andrew

    Warne, G. H.

    Evans, Ernest (Cardigan)

    Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

    Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.

    Falconer, J.

    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

    Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

    Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

    Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

    Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)

    Foot, Isaac

    March, S.

    Webb, Sidney

    George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C.

    George, Major G. L. (Pembroke)

    Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)

    Weir, L. M.

    Gilbert, James Daniel

    Middleton, G.

    Welsh, J. C.

    Gosling, Harry

    Millar, J. D.

    Westwood, J.

    Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton

    Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz

    White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

    Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Morel, E. D.

    White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)

    Greenall, T.

    Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

    Whiteley, W.

    Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)

    Mosley, Oswald

    Williams, David (Swansea, E.)

    Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

    Murnin, H.

    Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

    Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

    Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)

    Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

    Groves, T.

    Norman, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

    Grundy, T. W.

    O'Grady, Captain James

    Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

    Guest, Hon. C. H. (Bristol, N.)

    Oliver, George Harold

    Wright, W.

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Paling, W.

    Young, Rt. Hon. E. H. (Norwich)

    Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Parker, H. (Hanley)

    Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

    Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

    Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

    Hancock, John George

    Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.

    CLAUSE 28.—(Construction, short title, application, and repeal.)
    (1) Part I of this Act so far as it relates to duties of Customs shall be construed together with the Customs (Consolidation) Act, 1876, and any enactments amending that Act, and so far as it relates to duties of Excise, shall be construed together with the Acts which relate to the duties of Excise and the management of those duties.

    SCHEDULE.

    ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

    Session and Chapter.

    Short Title.

    Extent of Repeal.

    6 & 7 Geo. 5. c. 24

    …

    The Finance Act, 1916

    …

    Section eight, and in section nine the words "and "by persons who sell older or perry."

    10 & 11 Geo. 5. c. 18

    The Finance Act, 1920

    …

    In sub-section (1) of section fifty-nine the words "invested or" and sub-section (4) of the said section.

    Amendments made: In paragraph "6 and 7 Geo. 5 c. 24" in column 3, after the word "perry" insert the words

    8 & 9 Geo. 5. c. 40

    …

    The Income Tax Act, 1918

    …

    Paragraph (b) of sub-section (3) of section one hundred and thirty-seven.

    After the paragraph "10 & 11 Geo. 5 c. 18" insert

    11 & 12 Geo. 5 c. 32

    The Finance Act, 1921

    …

    Section seven, and paragraph (2) of section eight

    12 & 13 Geo. 5. c. 17

    The Finance Act, 1922

    …

    Sub-sections (1) and (3) of section thirteen, and section twenty-four.

    [Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]

    Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
    Part II of this Act shall be construed together with the Income Tax Acts.
    Amendment made, in Sub-section (1), after the word "Acts" ["the Income Tax Acts"], insert the words "and the Acts relating to Inhabited House Duty."—[Sir W. Joynson-Hicks.]
    "and in Section twelve the words 'who are under the age of sixteen years and'."
    After paragraph "6 and 7 Geo. 5 c. 24" insert

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.

  TRANSPORT (MOTOR OMNIBUSES AND COACHES).
  TRANSPORT (MOTOR OMNIBUSES AND COACHES).
  KENYA COLONY (RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION).
  KENYA COLONY (RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION).
POST OFFICE.
  TELEPHONE DIRECTORY.
  TELEPHONE DIRECTORY.
  POSTAL FACILITIES, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  POSTAL FACILITIES, NORTHERN IRELAND.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, HACKNEY AND STOKE NEWINGTON.
  TELEPHONE FACILITIES, HACKNEY AND STOKE NEWINGTON.
  HOUSE PROPERTY (INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS).
  HOUSE PROPERTY (INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS).
  UNIVERSITY OF WALES (GRANT).
  UNIVERSITY OF WALES (GRANT).
  BRITISH ARMY (FLOUR SUPPLIES).
  BRITISH ARMY (FLOUR SUPPLIES).
  RUHR OCCUPATION (BRITISH TRADE).
  RUHR OCCUPATION (BRITISH TRADE).
  TRANSPORT CREWS (NAVAL PASSES)
  TRANSPORT CREWS (NAVAL PASSES)
  INDIA (DR. McGOVERN'S VISIT TO LHASA).
  INDIA (DR. McGOVERN'S VISIT TO LHASA).
  ANIMALS (SLAUGHTER).
  ANIMALS (SLAUGHTER).
  ASSIZES (YOUNG OFFENDERS).
  ASSIZES (YOUNG OFFENDERS).
  MINERS' DISPUTE, NANTGARW (POLICE).
  MINERS' DISPUTE, NANTGARW (POLICE).
Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL of DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.
COTTON INDUSTRY BILL.
Second Reading (which stood appointed for to-day) put off sine die.
MAIDSTONE CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: Further Amendments agreed to; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
RAWMARSH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
BOURNEMOUTH-SWANAGE MOTOR ROAD AND FERRY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
MINES (WORKING FACILITIES AND SUPPORT) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, as I see the noble Marquess the Deputy Leader of the House in his place, I desire to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. Anybody who is interested in the business of this House must have observed that the Order Paper is getting greatly congested, and there is only a

735
month left of the present Session. I have a Notice on the Paper to-day—[to ask if any further progress has been made with reference to the settlement of Hungarian Reparations]—which is of more importance than it appears, and upon which I know that various Peers are anxious to speak, but there is obviously no chance of its being reached to-day. I propose therefore to put it down for this day week, though I have not the smallest guarantee that it will be reached on that day, because it is open to any noble Lord to put down a Bill which will take precedence of it. The present system is an extremely inconvenient one. It would be much more practical and convenient if Motions were taken in the order in which they are put down on the Paper. If the Government desire precedence for any measure of their own it would then be perfectly easy for them to move that they should have precedence, provided they do so a day beforehand. In view of the fact that we only sit practically for nine hours in the week it is obviously desirable that we should now make a practice of meeting on Mondays.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I am quite sure that it is only a matter for your Lordships to decide how soon you resume the ancient practice of sitting on Mondays. I think we have very nearly reached the period in the Session when, in any case, the Government would have to ask your Lordships to sit on Mondays. I had not proposed to ask that indulgence next Monday, but, of course, if my noble friend, or other noble Lords, pressed it, I would do so. But after next Monday I expect it will be necessary to sit on Mondays. I will confer with my noble friend the Leader of the House, and with the Leader of the Opposition on that point.
I think it would be inconvenient to adopt the course which my noble friend suggests—namely, that upon Tuesdays and Thursdays Notices of Motion should have precedence of Bills, according to the date of their being put on the Paper. After all, the main business of your Lordships' House is to pass legislation, and though everybody knows—and certainly I am the last man to deny—that the debates which arise upon a mere Question, or Motion, in this House are very important, yet they ought not to
736
interfere with the actual passing of legislation which is necessary for the country. So I should rather deprecate the suggestion that upon Tuesdays and Thursdays there should be an alteration in our arrangements. The proper answer to my noble friend's difficulty, undoubtedly, is Monday sittings. That is the proper remedy and I need not tell your Lordships that if I receive any suggestion from any quarter of the House that they would wish to sit on Mondays henceforth, I would convey that to my noble friend the Leader of the House and I am sure he would agree with it. As a matter of fact I do not think that next Monday would be a very suitable day for the particular Motion which my noble friend mentioned, because I believe the Leader of the Opposition cannot be here.
LORD NEWTON: Tuesday will suit me.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: On Tuesday I cannot, without an alteration of the Rules of the House, give the precedence to my noble friend that he wishes. He said in his speech that no difficulty would arise so far as the Government were concerned because we could always move a special Motion to put our Orders in front of others. It is true that we could do so, but whether your Lordships would consent to it is quite another matter and I should think that if that practice was often indulged in your Lordships' House would very much resent it. We do not want to upset the order of business except where the interests of the country absolutely demand it, and that has always been the practice of your Lordships' House. If my noble friend places his Motion on the Paper for Tuesday I am afraid that I cannot promise him the precedence for it that he desires. If he wants it to appear in the Notice Paper on Monday I will make inquiries during the next twenty-four hours and, if necessary, I will ask your Lordships to sit on Monday.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, in reference to what has fallen from the noble Marquess, may I say that noble Lords on this side of the House will be only too glad to fall in with any suggestion made by him? This question is a very hardy annual. It is always raised at this time of the year and the noble Marquess, if he will allow me to say so.

737
has so good a record in the past in his anxiety about the way in which this House should sit and deal adequately with all the Bills presented to it, especially those presented by a Liberal Government, that I have no doubt on this occasion the traditions of your Lordships' Rouse will be perfectly safe in his hands. I agree with him in thinking that it is more convenient to meet on Monday than on any other day of the week, although as time goes on it may be necessary to meet on Fridays as well. Should that happen, I hope that the noble Marquess will be good enough to remember the possibility of meeting at an earlier hour, as they do in another place, because that makes it much more convenient in respect of Royal Commissions, and so on. I am sure the noble Marquess is ready to meet on Mondays if it is necessary and that the rest of your Lordships are ready to do the same. The reasons for meeting next Monday are, I agree with him, not so evident, but I think that after that it will probably become necessary to meet on Mondays.

HAWKSHEAD MISSION CHAPEL CHARITY BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.
LUCAS'S HOSPITAL CHARITY BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.
TANCRED'S CHARITIES BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment.

HOUSING, ETC. (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, a short time ago, in reply to a Question addressed to me by my noble friend opposite, Viscount Astor, I described, so far as I could, the general state of affairs in regard to the housing question in this country. In those circumstances I propose,
738
to-day, to confine myself strictly to the provisions of the Bill to which I am asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading this afternoon.
This is the third Bill which has been brought in during the last four years to deal with questions of housing. The first was Dr. Addison's Bill which was introduced in 1919, and which produced 176,000 houses at a cost of about £9,000,000 per annum. The next was the Bill of 1921, which I had the honour to introduce to your Lordships in that year and which resulted in the erection of 39,000 houses at a total cost of £9,500,000. That was Sir Alfred Mond's Bill. The present Bill differs from its predecessors in that it offers various alternatives and enables local authorities to assist building in different ways which I will endeavour to describe to your Lordships. The Bill, of course is mainly directed to assisting the solution of the housing question. Incidentally, it touches upon questions of slum clearance and town planning. I will deal first of all with the main point, which is housing. In doing so I should like to emphasise very strongly that this Bill is only a step forward in the process of dealing with the housing situation. It must not be thought that, because the provisions of the Bill are only temporary and cease in 1925, in that year the whole housing situation will be set at rest and no further Bill or measures will be necessary. This Bill is a step in, the ladder and one which we trust will take us some way towards the time when the housing situation will revert to the normal position in which it was previous to the war. We are not legislating for a long period because we do not know, we cannot possibly tell, what the conditions will be in the year 1925. We do not know whether this form of subsidy or the other provisions of the Bill will be applicable at that time. Other provisions may be necessary, or legislation may not be necessary at all; we cannot tell. Therefore, we have designed this Bill as a temporary measure. In doing so we do not wish it to be thought that we think it is absolutely the last word on the housing question. It is, as I have said, merely a step forward in the direction that I have described.
What we are endeavouring to do by this Bill is to stimulate the provision of more houses by private enterprise. We feel that the situation can only be solved by means of private enterprise, because

739
private enterprise is the sole agency for the provision of houses which permits of the necessary expansion. In a former debate, on the Question raised by my noble friend opposite, noble Lords called attention to the shortage of operatives in the building trade, and it was thought to be necessary that the Government should produce a long continued scheme in order to give that security in the labour market which is necessary to enable operatives to be recruited for the construction of houses. I must say that I do not think that that security is to be obtained by legislation. The security in the building trade is this. There is a demand for houses. That demand must be fulfilled. So long as the demand exists, and so long as houses are to be built, so long will there be an adequate opening for young men to learn the trade required in building. That is the security for the future which is offered to those who wish to undertake building as a profession. That cannot be secured by legislation, but must be secured by the ordinary laws of demand and supply.
I will endeavour to deal as briefly as I can with the Bill as it stands. Under Clause 1 the State is enabled to assist the building of working-class houses either by private enterprise or directly by the local authority, and we are already considering schemes made by local authorities for the purpose of assisting private enterprise. These schemes will be eligible for financial assistance in the shape of an annual Government contribution of £6 per house for a period of twenty years. This money will be paid to the local authority as the State contribution towards the expenses which that local authority may incur in assisting private enterprise. I should explain that there is a provision that if the total assistance given by the local authority is less than £6, then the State grant will only amount to the total of the assistance given. That is to say, if the total assistance given by the local authority is £12, the State will find £6 and the local authority £6, but if, on the other hand, the total assistance afforded by the local authority is £5, then the State will provide £5, and not £6. The second condition is that where the local authority themselves undertake the provision of houses the State contribution will be a grant of £6 per annum per house for 20 years, but in such cases,
740
where the local authority undertakes the construction of houses, the Minister will have to be satisfied that the needs of the particular area can best be served that way—in other words, that the provision of houses by local authorities is preferable to provision by private enterprise.
I come now to the second part of this clause, which deals with the class of house that will be eligible for this amount. I dare say your Lordships are aware that there has been considerable difference of opinion in regard to this matter. The Government have always held to the view that the class of house which they should assist should be the smallest type of dwelling-house, and for this reason. The larger type of house—I do not mean the large villa type of dwelling-house, but the middle-class house just above the standard of the working-class house—is being provided in increasing numbers without any subsidy at all. The other day, when I replied to my noble friend, I was able to tell him that over 28,000 houses were built, or building, since September last, and that a considerable number more were planned. I dare say those are now under construction. But the smaller type of working-class house is not a profitable speculation, and the chances are that if the Government had extended the subsidy to the larger house—the small middle-class house, if I may so describe it—the builders would have devoted themselves entirely to that type of house, and the smaller working-class house would have been neglected altogether.
But where the dividing line was to come was another great difficulty, and I think that in the Bill we have, on the whole, allowed considerable latitude. The houses in respect of which contributions are allowed are a two-storied house with a minimum measurement of 620 superficial feet and a maximum of 950 superficial feet, and a flat or a one-storied house with a minimum of 550 and a maximum of 880 superficial feet. It was represented that perhaps this minimum was too large for certain types of requirements—for instance, for old people, or single people, or newly married couples—and there is a provision in the Bill that where it is proved there is no other house of similar dimensions the maximum may be reduced to 570 superficial feet in the former case and to 500 superficial feet in the latter case.

741
I come now to Clause 2, which relates to the methods by which the State contribution may be utilised for the assistance of private enterprise. There are three main methods. The first is the lump sum grant system. The State may make a lump sum grant for each house, and in order to do that there will be borrowing powers, and the loan charges can be met by the subsidy of £6 per annum for twenty years. That will meet part, or the whole, of the annual loan charges. The second method is by an annual payment each year to the person who is responsible for the rates. I should point out that this is not a refund of rates, but is an annual payment of £6 a year plus the additional grant from the local authority, and it is made payable to the person responsible for the rates for the sake of convenience. If it were to be payable to the person who owned the house, the local authority would have to keep an elaborate list of transfers each year, and it would be difficult to know at the end of each year to whom the annual sum was payable. By making it payable to the person responsible for the rates the whole thing is simplified. Of course, the owner will adjust his financial relations with his tenant in respect of this grant by a private arrangement. The third method is by the local authority undertaking the payment of any part of the loan charges in respect of advances made by building societies, or by other similar bodies. Before making advances the local authority is empowered to make conditions under which the advances are to be made. One method to which prominence is given in the Bill is that they should make a condition that the house shall be inhabited as it stands as a single house, and shall not be altered or added to without consent. The object of this is to prevent people building two houses adjacent with a partition wall between them, getting two subsidies, and knocking down the partition wall and making the two houses into one house of a larger type than was contemplated to be built.
Clause 3 enables the State to deal directly with certain large societies or companies without the intervention of the local authority. Many of these societies would be willing to build if they received the State subsidy without any further contribution from the local authority. Therefore, under this clause, we take
742
power to deal with them direct in the same way as we deal with local authorities.
The fifth clause contains the provisions under which local authorities may themselves, without any State assistance or Government grant, make loans for the purpose of building houses. Here it should be pointed out that there is a great distinction between the type of house for which State assistance may alone be given and the type of house in respect of the building of which local authorities are empowered to lend money. The Government subsidy is confined to the smaller type of house. Under this clause local authorities may lend money in respect of a larger typo of house. They may lend to build any house the estimated value of which does not exceed £1,500. We do everything we can under the Bill to encourage building by means of these loans.
Local authorities have power, in the first place, to borrow money in order to make these loans for building purposes. They may lend during construction, but they must not lend more than fifty per cent. of the value of the work done, and they may guarantee building societies' advances of an amount additional to the usual advance made by a building society for the construction of houses. May I explain that further? In the ordinary way building societies lend up to seventy-five per cent. of the value of a house, but many people cannot find the balance of twenty-five per cent., not having the necessary cash to do so, and therefore they are unable to take advantage of the building society's loan. By this Bill we enable the local authorities to make an additional guarantee up to fifteen per cent. above the seventy-five per cent. which the building society usually advances. We believe that a number of people who, for lack of capital, have been unable to buy their houses will do so now by means of this additional guarantee by the local authority to a building society. The clause is experimental and only runs until 1925. Should it prove successful it may be extended in future legislation.
Under this clause the Government, also encourage the conversion of large houses into tenements or flats; and this must be a useful method of increasing housing accommodation. In many parts of large

743
towns, London, for instance, there are big houses situated in quarters which are no long inhabited by the sort of persons who lives now in large houses, and these may very profitably be altered into tenements or flats. If that is done the rate-able value of a house, so converted, may be increased, and we give power to the local authority to refund, over a certain period, the whole or part of the difference between the rates of the house after conversion and the rates of the house before conversion. Lastly, under this clause the local authority has large powers of lending. It can lend up to ninety per cent of the value of the property. When dealing with this question of loans I should draw your Lordships' attention to Part III of the Bill which deals with Amendments of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. At present advances can only be made up to £800. By this Bill we increase the amount to £1,200, and we also relax the statutory provisions whereby a person is compelled to dwell in the house for five years, making the term three years, and give power to the local authority to do away even with that provision altogether if it thinks fit.
Clause 6 repeals the liability of the State under the Addison scheme to contribute to the losses of a local authority in excess of a penny rate and make grants as part of the charges on loans raised by public utility societies or the county council. But the clause does not interfere with existing liabilities. They are safeguarded. It makes a concession to public utility societies which, I hope, will be welcomed. At the time when the housing situation was very difficult these public utility societies came forward in a public-spirited manner and contributed largely to the provision of houses. They point out that if, in 1927, the grants in aid of their loan charges are reduced to 30 per cent. they will be severely hit. We have given them aid, in respect of these loan charges, up to 40 per cent. in order to meet this difficulty.
Clause 7 frees local authorities from the conditions imposed upon them by the Housing and Town-planning Act of 1919, forbidding them to sell houses to employers for the occupation of their workpeople, and it also repeals the provision in that Act which made it necessary to charge only a fixed rental for a house built on land sold to private builders by
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a local authority. The repeal of this clause was recommended by the Geddes Committee.
The next clause to which I should call your Lordships' attention is Clause 12, dealing with by-laws. House-builders have contended that one of the great difficulties in the way of building revival is the cost of street works, which they maintain are expensive owing to insufficiently elastic by-laws. This clause enables the Minister to draft a model set of by-laws which can be adopted by a local authority instead of the existing by-laws which may be insufficiently elastic. In the next clause power is given to the Minister to impose by-laws upon a local authority where the existing by-laws may be such as to impede building. In any public inquiry which may be necessary in such a case the local authority has every opportunity of being represented and stating its case.
Your Lordships will have observed in reading the Bill that the London County Council is several times specially mentioned. Its special position is emphasised and it would not be inconvenient, therefore, if I glanced at the position occupied by the London County Council and the Metropolitan borough councils under this measure. In Clauses 1 and 5 the London County Council is the sole authority to make grants for private enterprise and loans for house building. As regards building by local authorities, both the London County Council and the Metropolitan borough councils may build and obtain the Government subsidy subject to the approval of the Minister. Where a Metropolitan borough council builds the London County Council may make a contribution of £3 per house. If the total contribution is £12 then the State would contribute £6, the London County Council £3, and the Metropolitan borough council £3. This contribution by the London County Council acts in the same way as the equalisation of the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund. It equalises the loss over the whole county. In the making of by-laws the London County Council may suspend or relax the provisions as regards dwellings.
I said just now that the Bill, to a certain extent, deals with slums, but I should like to say that this is by no means the last word of the Government on that subject. Indeed, we trust that before long

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it may be possible to introduce legislation in regard to it. This is mainly a housing Bill, and although in one or two clauses we touch on slum clearance, that is merely incidental. The main provision with regard to slums is in subsection (3) of Clause 1, which provides that the Government may contribute half the estimated losses on slum schemes. We have had before us already considerable proposals from the London County Council, from Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham. Bradford and other large towns.
In Clauses 11 and 14, and also in the First Schedule, we introduce certain simplifications in procedure. The most important is that a local authority is given the right of entry into property where a slum clearance scheme is proposed. This is, of course, subject to safeguards as to compensation. Then in Clause 10 we are simplifying the procedure in regard to repairs, and the most important provision is that we enable local authorities to ascertain the names of superior landlords and keep them informed as to the state of their property. I was informed the other day of a property in which there are twenty-tenants and sub-tenants between the freeholder and the rack-renter. Many of the people who own, or are interested in, such property really do not know what the state of the property is, and if they have information about it they will, I think, be induced to see that their property is properly looked after, so that the property itself and the occupants thereof will benefit by this additional supervision. Power is also given to the local authority to borrow to meet the cost of repair work when this is done in default. Previously, I believe, they had to pay in cash. Power is also given to the local authority to acquire a house which has been closed under Section 28 of the Act of 1919; that is to say, when the owner has declared that a house is unfit for habitation and has closed it altogether. This Bill will give power to the local authority to acquire that house, repair it and let it for occupation.
I come to the last part of my observations, and turn to the question of town planning, which is covered by Part II of the Bill. The main provision is the clause which extends the period within which, under the principal Act, local authorities were required to submit town
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planning schemes. That period was fixed at three years, but local authorities have been very busy during the last three years and I think it will meet the convenience of all of them if the period is extended to six years. I ought perhaps to refer here to Clause 8, which, although it is not really a town planning clause, touches upon that question more than other clauses in that part of the Bill. This clause is designed to meet the difficulties which have arisen in the case of housing schemes carried out by local authorities outside their own area.
The object of the clause is to put such schemes in the same position as regards maintenance of roads, as the schemes carried out by the local authorities of the area itself. Some opposition has been raised to this proposal on the ground that the authority in whose area the scheme is carried out has to bear the expense of the roads and they wish to insist that the roads made by the other authority shall be as good as any other roads in the rest of the area. The constructing authority, on the other hand, may say that it is not necessary for their scheme to have roads forty feet wide, with pavements and so forth, but that a lighter and cheaper form of road would meet the case just as well. Somebody has to decide who is right in this matter, and we suggest that the question should be decided by the Minister, who would look at the matter from the town planning point of view. He would first see which are to be the main roads carrying the through traffic and which are the by-roads. That would be done, of course, in any town planning scheme, and that is the manner in which it is suggested that the Minister should decide on the questions raised by Clause 8. If it were found that the side-roads were sufficiently constructed by the planning authority, the Minister would be able to say to the local authority that it was not necessary to have a more expensive class of road and that the roads proposed would meet the case equally well.
I have, I think, explained before that one of the complaints of builders is the enormous cost of roads. That is what enhances the price of building, and I may point out that the difference in cost between the ordinary thoroughfare, the through traffic road, and the lighter roads constructed under the town planning

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schemes such as those to which I am referring here is as much as 13 s. 4d. a foot, which works out at something like £20 a house, and in the case of corner houses at a much larger figure. When such a matter comes up for decision before the Minister local authorities will naturally have power, before he decides, to bring their point of view before him. Unless it is decided to make all roads of a uniform type—that is to say, the most expensive type—I do not think it is possible to find any other means of deciding. Unless this point were provided for it might land the country in the enormous expense of having to provide through traffic roads in the place of side roads under a scheme of this kind. I think that is all I have to say on the subject of the Bill, which I venture to present to your Lordships' House and to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: My Lords, may I venture in the first place to congratulate your Lordships on the fact that for the first time this Session His Majesty's Government have presented for your consideration a legislative measure of urgent public importance? I do not rise to oppose this well-meant Bill, because in so far as it enables local authorities to promote and finance the building of houses, I believe it makes for good, but I rise in the hone that it may be possible by criticism to hasten its extensive amendment. This Bill is meant to satisfy and to supply the miserable deficiency in the housing of the people which I believe to be the radical cause of our social discontents to-day. Without decent housing no sort of decency in life is possible, and while people cannot marry because they cannot find a roof to cover them and while, when they do marry, they cannot have children, or, if they do have children, the children are turned into the gutter because there is no other place for them to go to, I think we are acquiescing in a state of things which is a public danger. I believe that the housing question has more to do with the condition of England to-day than any other with which I am acquainted, and I venture to think that this Bill, though well-meant, as I have said, will do very little to remedy the evil conditions which prevail. I say this with some knowledge, because for the past
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five years I have been chairman of the Building Trade Employment Committee of the Ministry of Labour in this part of England, and I can tell your Lordships with assurance that there is not a master builder in London who believes that this measure will lead to the erection of a single house by private enterprise.
Before I develop that point I should like to give a concrete and a general example of what the present want of accommodation means. I ventured to put a Question on the Paper of your Lordships' House asking His Majesty's Government to supply us with the actual figures of the housing deficiency in this country in order to show how far they fell short of what was required under the model policy of the Ministry of Health. I was not able to put that Question, but if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill has the information I should be very glad if he could give it for the enlightenment of the public. I would ask your Lordships to consider what it means for people to live under such conditions. I have here two examples, one of them particular and the other general. The first is taken from a cathedral city in the south of England from which a member of the housing committee of the local authority recently wrote and told me of a ease that had been before his committee at the last meeting of a two-bedroomed house with parents and five children in one bedroom and parents and three children in another, there being recently born babies in both cases.
Then I turn to the report made by Mr. Appleton—who is well known, of course, as one of the most moderate and sensible, if I may say so, of the Labour leaders—in the ease, I think, of the excessive sickness in Dundee, when a special inquiry was ordered by the executive board of the General Federation of Trades Unions. I will only quote these figures. The occupied houses in Dundee number 42,000 odd and of those in which the size of the family is four, 622 one-roomed houses had 2,488 occupants; 4,000 two-roomed houses had 16,000 occupants, and 1,364 three-roomed houses had 5,456 occupants. Such cases as that, which are of recent report, show what the deficiency is and make it quite clear that unless it is possible to bring back private enterprise into active operation, any measure of this sort is a pretence and—I do not

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use the word offensively—a fraud. I think no Government can have a more inspiring tradition in matters of this sort, because it was the Conservative Party that first of all inaugurated housing reform in this country. It was Disraeli whose policy of "Sewage," as it was called, was ridiculed so foolishly and so disastrously years ago, and the first Artisans Dwellings Act was passed in 1874, by a Conservative Government.
What I submit is that unless you can bring private enterprise back into its full efficacy and efficiency you will not really do much, merely by arming the municipal authorities with new powers, and expecting them to forget the interests of the ratepayers, or to take a more enlightened view than many of them are almost prohibited by their financial responsibilities from taking. Up to recent, times ninety per cent. of the houses for the accommodation of working-people were built by private builders, and, moreover, they were nearly all built, as your Lordships know, by email builders commanding slender resources of capital, and, unfortunately, furnishing the greatest quota of any class which goes into bankruptcy in the course of a normal year. The big builders and contractors do not touch this sort of business. I venture to say there is not a big builder in this area in which we are now who will have anything to do with such things, unless special inducements are held out in public contracts. It does not fit in with their equipment and organisation. It is true that in the war a great many of the large contractors in the country undertook work of this kind, and carried it through, but they regarded it as part of their duty rather than as part of their interest. When the war was over they reverted to the usual conditions of their particular line of business, and took no more, part in solving what is called the housing problem.
Therefore, you are driven back to a man who is contumaciously, but unjustly, termed the speculative builder, who is really a necessary agent of all those societies and groups of individuals who, out of their savings and by virtue of their thrift, have enabled the housing of the people to be carried on, such as it is, in great centres of population. Unless you can get back the speculative builder, you will do little to solve the problem,
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and will only render a little less hard and difficult the conditions in which the working people have to live. If it be true that you will not get houses erected, your Lordships will want to know why, in the opinion of those who can speak with expert authority, it is not possible. I believe that it is because of the financial method which has been adopted for the Bill. The remission of rates or deduction from rateable value will not tempt any private builder to put up houses. It is the purchaser, who will buy from him, who may conceivably, in the next 20 years, derive, considerable benefit, but the builder is not enabled in practice to get more for the house which he has put up, and therefore he is not likely to engage in a hazardous business, when he has to obtain money from the banks in order to carry it on, and may have to pay at any time within measurable distance a high rate of interest thereon.
Then, the Ministry of Health do not make it any easier for him to do so. They hold up payments indirectly for months, even for over a year. Supposing the builder deviates in any way from the plan which has been approved by the Ministry of Health, objection is taken, and I dare say properly taken, by the officials of the Ministry. The consequence is that the representatives of the master builders have to press the Ministry, and also the local authorities who say they are powerless in the matter, in order to get their money. It does not seem much to a man in a great way of business, such as a great contractor, if he is kept out of forty or fifty thousand pounds for eighteen months, but it means a great deal to a small builder. Yet it is that policy which has prevailed, unfortunately, and which has discouraged men who have not large resources of capital from entering into so highly speculative a business as this building of small houses has always been.
It is my belief that the only way in which you could have tempted the small builder to come back into the business, and in which you could have got the building system of this country running again on the old lines, was by the grant of a lump sum. That is an inducement which every builder can understand. It is an inducement which would appeal to the small owner as well as to the small builder to erect houses, and it would undoubtedly

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have produced far greater results than is possible merely from this system of allowing a deduction from rateable value, which does not, as a matter of fact, act as the stimulus which, no doubt, the Ministry hopes and imagines it may be. It is true, and the noble Earl has pointed it out, that the local authority is empowered to do the very thing which I am advocating, but your Lordships know how unequal and unsatisfactory that discretion may be. It depends entirely upon the character of the local authority. Some local authorities are what are called ratepayers' men, and others represent the Socialist bodies, but the proposal does not act evenly or effectively over the country as a whole, and the Bill would not have the same result as it would have had if, as the financial principle, it had adopted the lump sum to be granted to the man who built the house whether a builder or a private owner.
The only objection that I have heard urged with force against the lump sum argument is that it would have tended to an immediate rise in prices, and would have restored the rings which, it is said, have prevailed in the building trade. There is only one way in which the prices of raw material can be reduced, and that is by competition. To imagine that public control can do it was, I think, proved fallacious during the war, when building material went up to three and four times its pre-war value, in spite of the fact that there was rigid control, by the Departments of State, of the building industry, as of so many other industries in the country. It is only competition, and, I am bound to say, competition from abroad, that can bring down the price of building material. But the difficulties are very great. In all contracts made with the public Departments, and in many made with public bodies all over the country, a clause is inserted that only materials of British origin can be used. I do not like to argue against that, but I do say that the fact that only British material can be used defeats any attempt to limit prices, and to prevent them from rising in consequence of the new demand which is bound to arise under the Bill, because municipal authorities are giving out large contracts, and, so far as their activities go, there is no doubt that more-houses will be built.
Already the price of raw materials has risen in many cases since the Bill was
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introduced All I can suggest is that, although I certainly do not want to speak hardly of British industry, if the organised bodies which deal on a big scale in these raw materials, such as cement and bricks, are not prepared to adapt their commercial policy to the urgent need for materials which has been created by public enactment alone, I think undoubtedly the clause which limits, in the case of public contracts, the use of materials to those which have been manufactured in this country is bound to be waived. That is to say, I do not believe that anything else can prevent the rise in the cost of raw materials; it is competition, and not control, which alone can effect that purpose.
On the point of policy I wish to urge upon the Minister in charge of the Bill that nothing should be done to prevent the erection of block dwellings, which in days past, in London particularly, have done so much for the accommodation of working people. I think the prejudice against them is, if not ill-founded, founded on bad cases. Those of us who know the East End of London are aware of the terrible habitations which pass under that name. At the same time, provided that block dwellings are of the right type, and that proper provision is made for open spaces and yards in their construction, and very often for communal rooms which can be used by those who live there, I believe they are a necessity of our urban state of civilisation. It must be recollected that those who live in block dwellings are saved the long journeys morning and night, often at very unpleasant hours, backwards and forwards to their work, and that, so far as that is not provided by subsidised fares, they gain a great deal of advantage in their out-of-pocket expenditure. So far as I know, there is no scheme under this Bill, and there was no scheme under the last Act, which provided for the erection of any further blocks of artisans' dwellings in London, or in any other of the big cities. I cannot think that that is a right policy.
I am aware, of course, that the average citizen much prefers his house, on the principle that the Englishman's home is his castle, to be separate from others, so that he may feel that he is his own master. But artisans' dwellings need not be uncomfortable; on the contrary, there may be facilities and amenities about

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them which it is impossible to have in those long stretches of dreary, two-storied houses, which certainly do not enliven the neighbourhood in which they are erected. I do not think streets are any less drab or less mean because they contain no blocks of dwellings, which can be made just as attractive and just as habitable as any other form of house. Many of us who years ago were engaged in the attempt to provide for the housing of London turned naturally to block dwellings as being the best for the purpose, and there are types standing to-day in many parts of London which could be repeated with advantage, and from which certainly the working people have nothing to fear, either by way of coercion on the part of the landlord or of unpleasant intrusion on the part of tenants.
I have ventured to raise these objections to the Rill not at all in an obstructive spirit. I hope to see the measure extended very shortly when it has been proved to fail in its purpose, as it has been conceived in the best spirit by Mr. Chamberlain, whose zeal and experience none deny. I am only thinking of what can be done to remedy the social evil, which is far greater and, I think, more dangerous than some people realise. It is the best material for revolutionary agitation that there is in the country to-day. And the fact that the "Glasgow gang," as they are called, have been so prominent in this connection is largely because Glasgow gives perhaps the worst example in the country of what the housing of the people can be, At any rate, we are now a city-bred and a city-loving community. We have to provide for the conditions of city life, and it is not fair that the welfare of the people should he, hung up, as it is now, by want of civic courage, because, after all, money spent in this way, even on the scale of Dr. Addison's measure, represents to a large extent savings from the rates levied for the Poor Law and from the taxes levied for the prisons. It is from that point of view that I hope this Bill will be considered by the House, and if we are unable to do much by the present Bill we may provide for its speedy amendment in the near future.
KARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I venture to think that the anxiety which the noble Viscount showed to intervene
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early in this discussion was fully justified by the amount of criticism which he had to make of the Bill introduced on behalf of His Majesty's Government. His criticisms went a great deal further and a great deal deeper than those which I shall make on behalf of the official Opposition.
May I, in the first place, congratulate your Lordships' House on their good fortune in having the Bill explained to them by the noble Karl who, with his usual lucidity, set forth quite clearly the somewhat; complicated contents of this Bill? If, indeed, I have a criticism to make of his speech it is rather of what he omitted than of what he actually said. He said very little of the other parts of the Government housing policy—matters such as rent restriction and decontrol; and he also omitted to mention yet another Housing Bill for which His Majesty's Government almost became responsible, the Housing (No. 1) Bill of this Session. That was, I believe, a very important Bill. Certainly, at one moment it affected the fate of more than one by-election and more than one Member of the Government, and that is the reason why this "No. 2" Bill is so labelled. I do not think any of us were allowed to see the provisions of the Housing (No. 1) Bill, important though it undoubtedly was.
It was important, as this Bill is important, because it is the largest measure which His Majesty's Government are introducing this Session. There is, I think, in their programme nothing which approaches this, either in its scope or in its possibilities, and I say at once that I believe my noble friends will be only too glad to join with me in giving every support which is necessary to the Government in passing this measure. We agree, generally speaking, with the principles of the Bill. The problem, of course, is a very large one, and this Bill only deals with part of it. It is bound up with the whole question of the unemployment of people in this country, with the progressive deterioration which always ensues when men are kept out of work, are inadequately maintained, and their children, owing to lack of maintenance, are very often brought up in an ill-nourished condition.
So far as this immediate portion of the policy of His Majesty's Government is concerned, it seems an easy matter to deal with it. It is not so easy as it seems to be. On the one hand, you have

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a large number of unemployed, of whom something like 150,000 have been stated to be unemployed in the building trade. They are receiving unemployment pay and they are living in enforced idleness. They are receiving what seem to be very large sums indeed in the gross, but which to the individuals become but very small sums indeed, especially in the cases of men with families. Then, and while you have this large mass of unemployed on the one hand, you have, on the other hand, a great need for houses. It is not necessary to calculate the exact number of houses; let us say 500,000 houses. The question is how to bring these two opposing forces together. His Majesty's Government have by means of this Bill discovered a bridge and, with the help of the £6 per house, they hope to bring a solution of the double problem—the want of houses and the discovery of work for the unemployed. Money spent in this way is well spent. It is on the whole a sound method of economy, and I hope that it will go far towards abolishing doles.
This is no new problem. The problem of housing has been with us for a long time. I was almost sorry that the noble Earl, in reciting other measures dealing with this subject which had been before Parliament, made no mention of a friend and colleague of my own, Mr. John Burns, who was responsible for a great Housing and Town Planning Act in the year 1909. The noble Marquess opposite may remember that Bill. At that time we were sitting on opposite sides of the Table, and I would remind him that on this occasion he will receive from us a great deal more assistance in the passage of this measure than he gave me in the passage of the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909. I remember, at any rate, even if it escapes the memory of the noble Marquess, the large sequence of arguments which we held during the Committee stage of that measure.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have totally forgotten it.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Except that nothing is more uninspiring in the way of literature than old numbers of the OFFICIAL REPORT, I would suggest to the noble Marquess that he might find to-day some amusement in looking up the
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arguments which we then had upon these very same problems which are with us now. These problems have been made-very much larger by the war, and in this measure His Majesty's Government deal with only part of it. They confess quite frankly that they are not doing all that they hope they will ultimately be able to do. There is the great question of the clearing of the slums, the provision of open spaces, of reducing the quantity of smoke—a perfectly practical measure—and an increase in town planning so that we may ultimately provide healthy houses for every member of the community.
There is one special department of the subject for which I grieve to think that comparatively little is likely to be done under this Bill, and that is the provision of rural houses, one of the most important portions of the subject. The matter is a difficult one. It is not only that there is a shortage of houses, but that every year there is a necessity for more and more houses to be built. It has become a yearly problem how that deficit is to be made up and how the deficit (which, unless special measures are taken, must occur from year to year) can be met. This Bill, as the noble Earl has told us. deals only with a part of the whole question. It is, too, as he reminded us, only a temporary measure. It deals with the next two and a half years and comes automatically to an end on October 1, 1925. I cannot but remember one of the passages in " Through the Looking Glass" where the Red Queen seizes Alice by the hand and they start running as hard as they possibly can. They run faster and faster and Alice loses her breath, but the Red Queen urges her to go on still faster and faster until at last they stop and find themselves exactly where they were when they first began to run. I am not at all sure that when this Bill expires and the two and a half years are past we shall not find that the same problem is with us still—that there is still a shortage of houses, and that we shall have His Majesty's Government coming before us then, if they do not come before us at an even earlier date, in order to ask that fresh powers may be given to enable them to deal with the question.
I have said that we accept generally the principle of this Bill and I think it is urgent that it should be dealt with now. I hope that the Committee stage will be

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taken without delay, and it would be of very great assistance if the noble Viscount who has just spoken were to put down Amendments which would strengthen the Bill. We have to remember that the building season is well upon us, that there is comparatively little time left, that valuable months have already gone, and that time is really the essence of the subject. Therefore, it is all the more necessary that we should proceed with the building of these houses as quickly as possible. That is why I was very glad to hear from the noble Earl who introduced the Bill that there were already schemes before his Department to which, I hope, as soon as the Bill is passed, he will be able to give approval. I am glad to think that the Ministry is going to take time by the forelock, so to speak, in this matter.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Schemes are already in operation.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: That is excellent; it is all the better, because one is only too anxious that no more time should be lost. One is glad to think that the Bill tries to make, use of various methods of dealing with the question. Power is given to public authorities to deal with it on their own initiative or through other agencies. It encourages the private builder and associations, amongst whom I would include the Cooperative Building Guilds, and there is also what I cannot help thinking may prove to be of very real value—provision with regard to turning houses into flats. But, behind all these, there is the real anxiety on the part of His Majesty's Government, which I am sure the whole House shares, to get hold of that intangible something which is the confidence of those who are interested in the building trade. We want them to feel a real confidence that they may go ahead, that they may proceed without interference in the future. We cannot but regard the fact that they do not like the idea of State control whether it be exercised by the State itself or by the local authorities, and that is one reason which has been holding them back during the last few years. For myself I confess that, except with regard to some of the larger corporations, generally speaking I believe we shall find that some of the most useful houses will be built by the private builder. He is more
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anxious to meet the wishes of possible customers and, with his experience, I think we ought to do what we can to encourage him to proceed in the future.
I confess that I have one or two criticisms to make on the details of the Bill. There is a matter to which I have already referred in your Lordships' House—namely, the question of the flat rate of £6. It is quite evident that there must be some places where £6 is too much and some places where it is probably too little. That is why, if the noble Earl will allow me to justify myself, I said just no" that I did not feel that we were so likely to get houses built in rural areas. I do not think that we shall get the houses built in places where the £6 is too little to cover the difference between the cost and the value of the house after it has been built. My next criticism is with regard to the control of trusts. His Majesty's Government, with great wisdom, have set up a Committee dealing with trusts, but that Committee has not all the power which I should like it to have. I think it ought to be able to send for papers, and to examine witnesses. We want to make quite sure that the advantages which His Majesty's Government are giving in this Bill are not absorbed by the wrong people. We want to assist the building of houses and not to increase the prices of the raw materials for building.
Another point to which I would refer is that of the size of the houses. The noble Earl, in moving the Second Beading, spoke of the smallness of the houses. I am not sure that they may not prove to be too small. If there is to be a fault on the one side or the other I am sure we should all agree that the fault should be in building large houses rather than in building houses that are too small. Then there is the question of whom you are to put into the houses, and in this respect we should consider the people who will be living in these houses a few years hence. One has a great deal of sympathy with the demand for small houses for old married couples without children. They are a class of people for whom provision should be made, but in making provision for them I fear that we may find, a few years hence, that the houses built for them will be lived in by a family with several children. The houses will have changed hands, and will be perhaps occupied at a low rent by a man and his wife with

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two or three children. That is, indeed, a very real danger, because that is the way so many of our slums have been created. It is not usual that houses become slums the moment they are built; it is through a gradual process of deterioration and an increase of population that they become slums. That is the danger against which one wishes to guard.
I am not sure that we should not explore in this connection the possibility of giving to the local authorities some power with regard to the class of people who should live in these houses when they are built. These houses are being built, as the noble Earl told us, specially for the artisan classes in this country. It is not really fair to them that people who can afford bigger houses should come down, pay comparatively small rents—when I say "comparatively," I mean compared with their total income—and live in these houses for which Parliament voted money with the idea of their being occupied by quite a different class of person altogether. I am not certain, therefore, whether it would not be possible to consider the question of giving to local authorities some power of dealing with the classes of people who are to live in these houses. Those really are all the criticisms which I have to make upon this Bill. I will only say once more that, though I could wish it had gone farther, and that it did more, we wish it well so far as it goes, and the noble Earl may rest assured that he will have from us every assistance in passing it.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, I welcome this Bill as a first step. The noble Earl who explained it told us that it was only the first step, and I hope most earnestly that the second step may be taken in the immediate future. There is no problem so grave and serious as this. I know that there are some who take comfort from the fact that the census, as referring to London, showed that there were fewer persons overcrowded than in 1911. That undoubtedly is true, but against that must be set the fact that there are more families which are overcrowded—namely 34·2 as against 32·7 in 1911—that in seven of the London boroughs the overcrowding has increased, and that even in those boroughs in which there has been a decrease in overcrowding the situation is extremely serious.
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Let me quote three illustrations. In the borough of Southwark there are 41,000 people living in overcrowded conditions, in the borough of Lambeth there are 36,000, and in the borough of Camberwell 33,000. The overcrowding in London is in some cases intense. There are no fewer than 900 instances of families, consisting of six persons or more, living in one room. Family life is an impossibility in such conditions. Health and decency are almost impossible. The conditions are nothing less than appalling. I welcome, therefore, this measure as an attempt to encourage the building of houses which will both lessen the overcrowding, and, by lessening the overcrowding, will enable the authorities to deal with the slum districts which long ago ought to have been closed, but which it has been impossible to close on account of the lack of accommodation.
There are one or two anxieties which I have over this matter. I should like, in the first place, to ask those who are in charge of the measure whether there exists any power of bringing pressure to bear on the local authorities if they fail to use the powers which are entrusted to them under this measure. In the 1919 measure the local authorities had to make a survey of the conditions, and had to produce some scheme. Does this apply under the present measure? Is the application of this measure simply left to the local authorities? There are some local authorities which, no doubt, will act wisely and promptly, but there are other local authorities which constitutionally are neither prompt nor wise, and I am anxious to know whether the Ministry concerned have the power to bring pressure to bear on the local authorities which may be apathetic in the matter.
Next, I am anxious with regard to a point to which the noble Earl referred—namely, the question of labour. Even if you have your local authorities eager to act, and the private builder eager to build, you have not at the present time a sufficient number of men in the building trades who can carry out the building which is absolutely necessary. For every 100 men in the building trades in 1910 there are now sixty, and among the plasterers—a most essential trade—the proportion is very much smaller. Nor is that all. A large proportion of the

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men who are engaged in the building trade cannot be diverted to houses because they are concerned in building factories. I am told on very reliable authority that some two years ago, out of all those engaged in the building trade, only fourteen or fifteen per cent. were available for the building of houses. I do not see how you can carry through any large building scheme unless some provision is made for a larger supply of workers.
This means, of course, that in certain quarters the demand will be raised for dilution. But the trades unions are opposed—and I think perfectly naturally, in view of the present unemployment—to any suggestion of dilution, and the only way I can see to meet the difficulty is for the Government to adopt a housing programme covering a considerable period of years which will guarantee employment. If this is adopted after consultation with the trades unions, and if the fear of unemployment is removed, it may be possible for the trades unions to consent to the employment of many whom at the present time they hesitate to allow to enter their trade in case the unemployment should be increased.
One other point I wish to make. There is no safeguard in this measure against the new houses becoming slums in the future. It is really essential that some limitation should be placed on the number of houses which are to be built to the acre. In the past, before there were any by-laws in existence, something like sixty and seventy houses were built to the acre. You can see the result in the blocks of buildings off Blackfriars Road, and elsewhere. When by-laws were applied the numbers were reduced, and Dr. Addison, in 1919, made it a rule that only twelve houses should be built to the acre. In this measure there is no provision to that effect. Local authorities may crowd a large number of houses on a given area and in a short time you may have slums springing up. There is really need for caution in this matter. One of the greatest cities in the north of England is now asking for permission to build houses back to back. If they are built back to back, no doubt forty houses may be built to the acre, with disastrous results to the health and happiness of the people living in them. I hope some new clause may be added
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at a later stage, which the Government will accept, limiting the number of houses which are to be built to the acre.
I welcome Clause 10 which deals, though indirectly, with slum property. The real defence against slum property is public opinion. Public opinion cannot act effectively because it is almost impossible to know the name of the owner of the property. It is possible to know the name of the agent, or the sub-tenant, but it is not possible, in all cases, to know the name of the actual owner. This clause makes it possible, in certain cases, to discover the actual owner. I am certain that public opinion would have been brought to bear very effectively in a number of cases if it had been possible to know the name of the owner of some dilapidated property. There have been cases—I have known them myself—where it was discovered that the owner of some disreputable property was sitting on the local health committee and opposing the various measures which were proposed by the Medical Officer of Health for that particular town. That kind of thing would be impossible if the actual owner of the property was known. It may be extremely difficult to draft such a clause but I am not without hope that it can be done. Public opinion would be aroused if the name of the owner could be made accessible to the public in every ease. With this reservation I welcome and support this measure as I believe it will do something to make home-life a reality to many who at present are living in conditions which are unhealthy and degrading.
LORD CLWYD: My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships more than one or two moments by what I have to say. I rise cordially to support the Bill, although I am not so sanguine as the Government appear to be as to the precise extent of its influence, when it is passed, in achieving the object we all have before us—namely, to supply as soon as possible as much of the increased number of houses as will approach at all events the normally adequate provision of housing required in this country. As the noble Earl who moved the Second Reading has said, it is a step, and a step only, in the direction in which we all desire to move. I entertain the hope that when this Bill has been tested it will be found possible at a later stage still further to develop

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the opportunities it provides. We all agree on the outstanding fact of the situation. I agree with the right rev. Prelate who has just spoken, and with the noble Viscount, Lord Burnham, in their sense of the very serious character of the present position in this country owing to the shortage of housing accommodation. I believe that behind this shortage lie very grave dangers, and it is on all grounds imperative in the highest interests of the State that this shortage should be made up.
Let me, for one or two moments, make some observations on the business side of the Bill. The only way in which this country can provide a sufficient supply of houses is through the unfettered interplay of economic forces. It is only upon sound economic lines, which means the coming into play of the law of supply and demand, that in the long run this problem of housing will be completely satisfied. At the same time, the crux of the present situation is that owing to certain exceptional factors in the present situation, owing to certain circumstances in connection with labour and the cost of building materials, it is practically impossible to induce private enterprise to build houses, and we are faced with the necessity of doing something to induce the private builder to put his band to the work of satisfying the housing necessities of the nation at the present time.
One word as to my views of the sufficiency of the inducements provided in this Bill. I agree with Lord Burnham that the subsidy of £6 running over twenty years will not be sufficient to secure private enterprise in the task of supplying these houses. It is not enough. I welcome the further provision in the Bill which enables local authorities to offer a lump sum per house to private enterprise, but if that lump sum is to be limited to the equivalent of the capitalisation of the £6 per annum for twenty years I am afraid it will not be sufficient to secure the result we all desire. I note that there are other possibilities in the Bill which will, I hope, enable local authorities to add to the lump sum which may be payable to private enterprise. In my judgment the practical success of this Bill, so far as the immediate securing of private enterprise for building is concerned, will depend upon the measure of the possibility which this Bill provides
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for local authorities to make that inducement of a lump sum sufficiently large to attain the object for which we are working.
In conclusion, I wish to say that I think the Government were wise in making full use of the local authorities in the solution of the housing problem. I am one of those who believe that we ought to appreciate very highly the contribution of local authorities, particularly in our large cities throughout the country, towards the solution of this problem, and as I have for some years had an opportunity of knowing a good deal of the way in which this problem has been dealt with by the Corporation of Liverpool I can appreciate not only the magnitude of the task, but the manner in which the municipalities have carried out their responsibilities in this regard.
I will not refer to more than one detail of the Bill. I concur with the noble Earl who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench as to the desirability, if it were possible, that local authorities should have some degree of latitude in regard to the size of the houses in respect of which subsidies or lump sum payments may be available. Your Lordships may remember that an Amendment was introduced into the Bill in Committee in another place enabling local authorities to go below the minimum of 620 feet superficial area if they were of opinion that circumstances in the locality made it necessary. I cannot help thinking that it would be wise if it were possible to allow local authorities similarly to go above the maximum of 950 feet if circumstances rendered it in their judgment desirable in the public interest. The noble Earl opposite, in moving the Second Beading, has already pointed out that Clause 5 will contribute in some measure towards the object which I have in view, but at the same time I think it would have been useful to give some latitude to the local authority in regard to this point, and had it been possible I should have been glad if an Amendment could have been introduced with that purpose. I will, if I may, conclude by associating myself with that which has already been said as to our extreme good fortune in having as Minister of Health, who framed this Bill and has been in charge of it in another place, one who is so exceptionally qualified by special experience and knowledge of

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local government as is the right hon. gentleman the present Minister. I would also, if I may, congratulate my noble friend Lord Onslow upon the very clear and complete statement with which he moved the Second Reading of this Bill.
LORD DAWSON OF PENN: My Lords, I cannot, like so many noble Lords who have preceded me, claim to have any expert knowledge of local government, but I think I may say that I have had experience of the homes and lives of the working classes, and in the course of my life I have had opportunities of studying the conditions under which they live. It appears to me that this Bill has the virtue of limiting the amount of direct action on the part of local authorities to those operations which must necessarily be carried out by public enterprise and which there is small chance of private enterprise performing. In addition, it does all that can be done to encourage local enterprise to direct individual effort.
If one regards the matter from the point of view of health, surely no scheme could be large enough to meet the evils which admittedly exist. If one looks at the health of the community, one sees at once how gravely it suffers in existing conditions. We have workmen who cannot get fresh air and who have not adequate accommodation for resting. How can they be efficient in their work, and how can they be expected to possess themselves in contentment? If you look at the matter from the point of view of disease, tuberculosis alone would be more safely and securely squashed by a good housing scheme than by any other possible method. Germ diseases would be reduced, maladies of infancy would speedily decline, together with all those maladies which modern knowlege tell us are increasingly dependent on the absence of light and air, and the health that would arise from increased light and air would be compensation far out of proportion to the cost which would be involved in any scheme, however large. When one considers that in the cure of disease we are increasingly moving in the direction of open air treatment, and that probably in the near future our hospitals will to a large extent be constructed in the open with open wards with full confidence in the results which will follow, one is tempted to speculate, if we are going to
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give fresh air in the cure of disease, how much more profitable it would be if we gave it in the prevention of disease.
On the other hand, though I belong to a profession which is credited with small business knowledge, I do not disguise from myself the fact that, however desirable it may be to proceed on a more ambitious scale than the present Bill provides, any remedy which was too ambitious would be crushed under its own weight and any reform which did not carry educated public opinion with it would defeat its own ends. It appears to me, therefore, that this Bill goes as far as it is wise to proceed, in the present stage of knowledge and in the present state of public opinion. One of its most useful features is, I think, that in a sense it is experimental. The Government have an opportunity under its provisions of making what I may call trial trips, and in this connection I should like to urge upon them that they should give very generous consideration to that experimental part of the Bill which is concerned with the housing of communities. This part of the Bill contains provisions which enable measures for town planning and the building of garden suburbs to be tried and extended. I think that no part of the Bill is likely to be more productive of permanent good than that dealing with the extension of town planning and garden suburbs, if one thinks of the communal life that is engendered, the way that the health of the people is ensured, and the fact that you are bringing about a higher ideal of citizenship than at present exists.
In this connection I should like to mention this. If you take the housing of the people as intimately intermingled with the medical care of the people, one of the difficulties at the present time in the medical care of the people is the need of organisation, the want of fabric and of provision for the cure of disease. Your Lordships are well aware that there have been considerable criticisms of late upon what is called the panel practice. Those criticisms are well founded, but are not due to any fault in the principle of insurance. There is no alternative to insurance outside whole-time State service, which Heaven forbid should ever be our lot to endure. The whole fault is the absence of organisation and the means whereby the best treatment can be brought

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to the service of people of smaller means. I mention this as an example to illustrate what I want to bring forward—namely, that these communities enable an experiment of that kind to be made. They show the way. Whereas in a city or suburb, or community already established, it is extremely difficult and expensive to put up the means of improving the health of the people, in these new communities, where land is available and costs are low, such experiments can be made, and the way shown for useful and healthy development in the future. I would urge upon the Government to give as much encouragement as possible, and as generous a trial as possible, to the garden suburbs and housing communities referred to in Part II of the Bill. With that reservation I beg respectfully to support the Bill.
LORD, PENTLAND: My Lords, I should like, if I may, to say a word or two about the special position of Scotland, which has not been alluded to. I do not intend to offer any observations on the general policy of the Bill—it is an exceptional Bill to deal with exceptional circumstances—but I should be glad to know whether, as in earlier legislation of this kind, some recognition can be given to the special position of Scotland. It seems to me that the weakness of the Bill in its application to Scotland is that the conditions of building in Scotland are not recognised. By custom, tradition and practice, founded principally upon the more rigorous climate, the standard of housing in Scotland hitherto, house for house, broadly speaking, has been higher than in this country. Different material is used, and a more costly house is the result. The bearing of that upon this Bill is that the subsidy of £6 when applied to Scotland is not relatively the same assistance or encouragement to the building of houses as that sum is in England. I need not labour the point because it is familiar to the Secretary for Scotland. Houses are not only more costly in Scotland, but they take more time to build, and I think I am right in saying that under the Act of 1919 a longer period was allowed in the case of Scotland for the completion of schemes.
I hope that that point may have the consideration of the Government, and also the more vital point that the subsidy is not sufficient to give the same
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encouragement to building in Scotland as it is hoped it will give to building in England. The ordinary financial relations between Scotland and England, as your Lordships are aware, is eleven-eightieths. If a grant is given to England, eleven-eightieths of the grant is considered to be a fair share for Scotland. It would be obvious, in the light of the criticism that I have ventured to offer, that eleven-eightieths in this case will not really in essence meet the case. What is desired is eleven-eightieths of houses and not eleven-eightieths of money.
There is only one further point, and it relates to the difference in rating law which exists in Scotland. In England, speaking broadly, the rates are paid by the tenants. In Scotland the local rates are divided between the owner and the occupier. Now if you imagine that the local authority builds houses in Scotland, you will at once see that from the rental which will be due to the local authority in Scotland, in respect of one of these houses, will fall to be deducted the share of rates which the local authority will have to pay. Therefore, again, there is a discouragement of the endeavours which this Bill seeks to promote for the building of houses. It is only too true, as has already been mentioned by the noble Viscount behind me, that Scotland is backward in its conditions of housing. Only a few years ago, in 1917, a Royal Commission, I think, confirmed that, and it is in the earnest desire that we may be able to assist on all sides in promoting progress in this direction that I have ventured to offer these words of criticism.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I will not detain you more than a very few-moments, but I desire to make one or two remarks on this Bill, which, generally speaking, I welcome. It is a very great improvement on previous efforts made to deal with the question. I welcome very much the fact that on the Committee stage in another place the maximum area of superficial feet was increased. I do not consider that when the Bill was introduced the number of superficial feet was sufficiently large.
I should like to say a word about the subsidy which may be given by a local authority to a private individual who builds a house. I am speaking only about the lump sum, and I do not think

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that it is made clear yet exactly what that lump sum may be. There is no doubt that a lump sum is what will appeal to the private individual more than anything else. A subsidy for housing is quite different from a subsidy given for any other purpose, such as a subsidy to a farmer to prevent him suffering loss when growing corn, because when a subsidy is given to a farmer, so far as the State is concerned there is an end of it, but a subsidy for housing is really in the nature of a perpetual loan. The State gains in the following way: It gets Income Tax, Schedule A, assessed upon the property, it receives Estate Duty, and it receives a contribution to the rates. May I take an example in round figures? A house is erected costing £1,000. The State contributes, through the Ministry of Health, £100, the individual finding the balance of £900. As soon as the house has been erected and occupied it is assessed, first, for Income Tax. Schedule A. The assessable value of such a house to-day would probably be £50. Taking Income Tax at roughly 3s. in the £, the average amount would come to £7 10 s. And although it is true that the £900 owned by the individual would probably be paying Income Tax before the house was erected, the owner would, in addition, pay a tax on the £100 granted to him by the State. This would amount, in the case of the £100 mentioned already, to 15 s. per annum, so that the State would receive ¾ per cent. interest on the £100 directly as Income Tax. The Imperial Exchequer, would, however, further benefit in Estate Duty, the sum actually receivable varying with the rate of duty levied on the particular property.
But there is something still more, and it is a very important consideration to bear in mind. The local authorities, taking rates at the average amount existing throughout the country, would receive probably £30 per annum as a contribution for a house of the nature described. The £100, being one-tenth of the total sum expended, would mean rates in respect thereof amounting to £3 per annum. That is to say, the total contribution to the Imperial and local Exchequer in respect of £100 would amount to 3¾ per cent. Where, of course, the local rates amounted to a fairly high rate in the £ the contribution would of necessity be higher, and I think it would probably be found that the
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actual contribution made to the Imperial and local exchequers amounted to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 4½ per cent.; so that the whole nation gains by the subsidy, and the wealth of the nation, is increased.
I would ask my noble friend in charger of the Bill to look at Clause 15, which, begins:—
"For the purpose of facilitating the consolidation and of simplifying the machinery of the Housing Acts, the provisions set out in the First Schedule to this Act—."
And when one turns to the First Schedule the first part deals with "Assimilation of procedure under Parts I and II." It is extremely difficult to follow exactly the procedure under this clause and the Schedule. It is nearly impossible to ascertain from the Bill what will be the procedure for making and confirming schemes, and, secondly, for assessing compensation. Might I ask my noble friend, if he could arrange it before the Committee stage, to issue an explanatory Memorandum on the procedure? It would be a great help to local authorities and to any individual owner who will come under the Bill. No doubt in time some consolidation Bill will be brought in. It is certainly rather necessary, but as I understand that this is only a temporary Bill, and we may expect another one shortly, we may have to wait until the next Bill is introduced.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, my noble friend who sits beside me (Lord Onslow) assures me that he is able to give a practically favourable answer to the questions which have just been addressed to us by my noble friend. There will certainly be a statement issued, in accordance with his wish, to explain procedure, and that will be done forthwith. As regards consolidation, I think he is perfectly right that there is a very considerable case for consolidation, even though this Bill is of a temporary character, and I am able to say that the matter is under consideration and that we have some hopes of introducing a consolidation Bill, but not in the present year. I think my noble friend would not expect us to go further than that.
I cannot say that every speaker to-night has received the Bill with enthusiasm, but everyone has received it with approval, and in one or two cases

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its reception deserves a rather warmer adjective than I have given to it. But I must say at once that we are as deeply conscious as any noble Lord in this House of the absolute necessity of improving the housing of the people. It really hardly requires to be stated, but there was nothing which fell, for example, from my noble friend Lord Dawson of Penn to which we are not able to subscribe. We are grateful to him for saying that it is necessary not to attempt too much at first, but as to the necessity of providing better housing he has no difficulty in convincing His Majesty's Government.
Although there has been a certain coolness in some of the approval which we have received—the noble Earl who is now leading the Opposition certainly did not show any very great warmth in his approval, but he promised us his assistance, which I value even more than I should have done the warmth of his approval—although that atmosphere certainly has been present in the criticisms made, I do not, for my part, intend to give way to the pessimism which seems to invade the minds of certain noble Lords. Why should they be pessimistic? Is it because so many attempts have been made, and so many attempts have failed? That seems to me to show rather an unworthy spirit. Parliament and the Government must go on until they succeed. And the present Bill is not intended, as my noble friend who is responsible for it has already said, to be the last word in housing reform. It is, we believe, a very important step forward. We look forward with great confidence to its success, but we do not imagine that it will solve the housing problem, and no doubt the attention of Parliament will, from time to time, have to be directed again to this subject.
Why am I determined to be optimistic? In the first place, because your Lordships must be aware that the situation in respect of the building problem had already improved even before this Bill was introduced. The cost of building was coming down, and a great deal of building had been undertaken in all parts of the country. No one could travel about without seeing building going on everywhere. I admit that it was not building of the class which is most required. It was of the class just above that which is most required. But in
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respect of that class of building a great deal is going on. I know it is in my own place, and I see it in every direction as I travel through the country. So that we see, as it were, facilities for building gradually approaching the level at which working-class houses can be erected, and it only requires a comparatively small impulse in order to make just the difference between what is not a paying proposition at the moment and what we hope will be a paying proposition in the future. It is not as if you had to bridge a very large interval. The change which has taken place has shown that the interval is comparatively small. The effort necessary is not nearly so great as it was in the time of Dr. Addison's Bill. Let us do Dr. Addison the justice of admitting that he had a much more difficult problem to deal with than we have.
We hope, therefore, that by the provisions of this Bill we shall be able to bridge this interval. And the Bill, as your Lordships see, tries to achieve its end in a great variety of directions. We want to have as much elasticity as possible in the particular details of the assistance which is afforded. My noble friend Viscount Burnham said he believed that there was no success achievable except by means of a lump sum. There is a lump sum provided in the Bill, and not only a lump sum contribution but an annual contribution. There is a method by which existing buildings can be adapted in every form. I think the noble Viscount spoke of turning large buildings into flats for the working classes. That provision is contained in the Bill. All these methods of approaching a solution of the problem are contained in the various clauses of the Bill. I do not mean to say that they are perfect, and please do not think that I assume any such confidence. With the assistance of your Lordships the Bill, no doubt, will be made perfect; but as it stands, at any rate an effort to approach the problem from all those points of view is made.
In other directions we try to make things as easy as possible. There is, for instance, the great problem of by-laws, into which I need not go, because your Lordships who are familiar with the housing question know the bearing of the point. But the great problem of the by-laws is attempted to be solved in this way, that what I may call obstructive by-laws should not be permitted in any

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part of England or Scotland to interfere with the proper provision of houses. Having mentioned Scotland I might be allowed to say, parenthetically, that I am wholly unqualified to deal with that part of the probem, but I can assure the noble Lord opposite that it will be dealt with by my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland, if not to-night, on a suitable occasion. I know that the Scottish problem presents certain special features. I was surprised for a moment, because I thought the noble Lord was going to say that the standard of housing in Scotland was higher than in England when, notoriously, the contrary is the case. There are, no doubt, difficulties in Scotland which do not exist in England.
What else can be done? The right rev. Prelate said that you ought to use compulsion. I have not much belief in compulsion in these matters, nor have I ever had much belief in it, but in so far as compulsion is of value it exists in the law, under the Act of 1919. If the right rev. Prelate will consult that Act he will find that where a local authority does not do its duty the Ministry have power to mobilise the County Council, and if the County Council does not do its duty the Ministry have power to supersede both of those authorities and to do the work under their own authority. The right rev. Prelate will see that there are compulsory powers, for whatever they are worth, and I do not lay much stress upon that. What we really rely on, of course, is the tremendous demand which public opinion now makes for housing accommodation. That, demand which exists in every part of England is far more powerful, and much more likely to be effective, than any compulsory provisions of the law. We rely, as other noble Lords have done, not upon compulsion but upon stimulating the enterprise of the speculative builder.
I agree with everything that the noble Viscount, Lord Burnham, said of the small builder. This problem will not be solved by means of the assistance of the large builders. It is the small local builder, the man who works with his own hands, upon whom we must rely in order to solve this problem, and it is to him that we hope the contribution provided by the Government will appeal. The noble Viscount seemed to think that it was a very small matter, but, surely, the contribution is a considerable matter.
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Capitalised, it amounts to something between one-fourth and one-fifth part of the total cost of the house. That is the best calculation I can make, and that is a very considerable subsidy. As I have said, it is given, or it may be given at the option of the local authority, in the form of a lump sum. The local authority gives a lump sum and pays itself back by the £6 subsidy, and pays the interest on the loan which it must raise for the purpose. In that way the lump sum is provided. It is perfectly true that a rise in the cost of building might absorb this or any contribution. All we can say is that there is no symptom of it at present. I have taken some trouble to look into the figures, to-day, and I find that so far there is no symptom that there has been any rise in the cost of building by-reason of the introduction of this Bill. Therefore, so far as we know, so far, at any rate, as our present information goes, we have no reason to fear that this misfortune will happen.
But the £6 and the capitalised value of the £6 is not the only contribution which can be made to the small builder. The local authority has power under the clauses of the Bill to make a contribution of its own, for which it does not get any return from the Imperial Exchequer. It is perfectly open to the local authority to do so. In fact, I should say that in my experience of Bills of this nature this is the most elastic that I have ever seen. There are very few conditions which bind those who are engaged in the working of this Bill, and it would be entirely open to the local authority to supplement the Government contribution by a contribution of its own if it saw fit to do so. Of course, we trust the local authority. We have always been partisans of local administration and of confidence in local administration. I do not believe that you can do any of these things except along that road. You cannot do these things centrally; you must use the local authorities for the purpose. If you use the local authorities you must trust them to the full in the hope that they will do their duty. A great number of them will do their duty, and upon those who do not you can bring the whole weight of public opinion until they do. That is the method by which you can achieve your end, and I believe there is no other method.

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Now, as for the other provisions, the right rev. Prelate said, I think, that there ought to be a provision limiting the number of houses to the acre. I admit that there is no such provision in the Bill; but in the instructions which have been issued by the Ministry to local authorities there is an indication that in the view of His Majesty's Government twelve houses to the acre is the ideal. As I have said before, you must have elasticity. Twelve houses to the acre would not be suitable everywhere and would be too expensive. For my part, I hope that there will not be more than twenty houses to the acre. One would not like to lay down any absolute limit, but I think that the right rev. Prelate may be assured that His Majesty's Government and the Ministry of Health have indicated that in their judgment these houses ought not to be crowded, that they ought to be built under what are compendiously called garden city conditions, and that in that way the best result can be achieved.
The noble Earl opposite said that he was against small houses. He thought we had gone too far in the direction of permitting small houses. I cannot agree with him. If you are to suit the needs of the working classes you must not have the houses too large. I am not speaking merely theoretically, because I have myself had some practical experience on this particular point. What the working classes want are houses that they can afford to pay for. If you have a large house the rent must be large, and I think the noble Earl will find, if he makes inquiries, that the large house is not popular.
I was very much struck—if your Lordships will forgive me for relating a special example—by an incident which happened in the district council of the area in which I live. All the Labour representatives on the council set themselves against the building of expensive houses, and they induced the council by their pressure to adopt the other policy. That has not always been the policy of this council. There have been expensive houses. I am referring now to the houses which they are building at this moment, and for which they will get a subsidy under this Bill. The pressure of the working classes is not towards expensive houses but towards the cheaper and smaller houses, the rents of which come
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within the limits of their purses. My friends in Hatfield who took that view are quite right. We want to go back as soon as we can to economic conditions. That is the real, fundamental solution of the housing question, and the only solution, and we must do our best to achieve it. I hope it may be achieved.
I cannot pretend that I believe much is to be done by new methods of design in house building, but I do believe that something more may be done in cheapening materials. I have been connected for some years with a research body whose business it is to try to find economical methods of building. Certain results have been achieved, and certain avenues have been opened for further investigation. I certainly am not without hope that by economic administration and judicious contribution where it is necessary, by the benefit of research and experience, we may ultimately solve the housing question.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

BASTARDY BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, I am going to ask your Lordships' support for the Bill which stands on the Order Paper in my name. The object of this Bill is to help the children of unmarried parents. During the last generation we have done a great deal in this country to protect and help children. Good work has been done under what is called infant welfare, but there is a large class of babies which has been neglected for practically the last half century. The country's opinion, I venture to say, has changed a great deal as to our duty towards illegitimate children, who are in no way to blame for their misfortune. This Bill is a small but genuine attempt to improve their lot. It is very significant that the mortality among illegitimate children is double that among legitimate children, and if we can do anything to change that and to give them a better chance of living, then I am certain everyone here will assist that object by facilitating the passage of this Bill.
Amendments to the law are long overdue. The main Act under which bastardy is dealt with is one passed in the year

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1872. That was slightly amended by an Act passed in the subsequent year, 1873, and by another Act passed in 1914. Under the existing law a mother is responsible for her illegitimate child till it is sixteen years of age. She can be proceeded against by the board of guardians if she neglects the child. A mother can summon the alleged father, and get an order for payment of a sum of 10s. a week—that is the present maximum—until the child is sixteen. Proceedings can be taken at present within twelve months of the birth of the child, or after twelve months if there is proof that the father paid money within a year of the child's birth. The order does not take effect until after the birth of the child. If the father goes abroad within twelve months of the birth of the illegitimate child, he can be summoned within a year of his return. That, broadly speaking, is the law as it now stands.
There have been several recent attempts to amend this law. I think three or four Bills have been introduced—in 1919, 1920 and 1921—but they never got very far, because public opinion had not crystallised, and, perhaps, because the proposals had not been sufficiently thought out. Some of the proposals which were contained in previous Bills have now been incorporated into the somewhat contentious proposal—namely, that dealing with legitimation—which is contained in another Bill that is before your Lordships' House. This Bill is quite a small measure. At present, if a magistrate who has issued a summons but has not completed the affiliation order, dies or leaves the district, the applicant, who will probably be the mother, has to go through the formalities of applying for the issue of another summons. Clause 1 of this Bill makes it possible for another magistrate, provided he belongs to the same petty sessional division, to make himself responsible for the original summons arid complete the affiliation order without a second formal application. It merely simplifies the procedure in cases where the magistrate who granted the original summons has died or left the locality.
The second clause increases the maximum payment which may be made in respect of a child from 10 s. to 20 s. weekly. Your Lordships, I am sure, will be aware of the fact that it is most important in eases such as this to keep the mother and
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the child together. It is important for the sake of the child, and it is important for the sake of the mother. It may make the greatest difference to the mother's future if she can be kept in contact with her child and made responsible for its upbringing. In these days that cannot be done on the small sum of 10 s. Clause 2 proposes, therefore, to increase the maximum from 10 s. to 20 s.
Clause 3 makes it possible to transfer an order from a board of guardians to the mother or her representative when a child ceases to be under the custody of the guardians. It also provides for altering the amount of the payment under the order. Very often a young man is the parent of the illegitimate child. He may be earning a very small amount per week when the order is made against him, and the order may be for a comparatively small sum of 2s. 6d., or 5s., or 7s. 6d. per week. Later on he either comes into money or he earns more money, and it is right that the order should then be varied, and that he should be made to pay a larger amount towards the upkeep of his child. Clause 4 compels a father who is under an obligation under an affiliation order to notify any person named in the order when he proposes to change his address. The father already has to give this information to the collecting officer, where that officer is responsible for collecting the weekly sums.
Those are the proposals of the Bill. There are only four operative clauses. It is a short Bill, and it deals with the least contentious of the points connected with bastardy. I understand that something like 4,500 babies die who would have lived if they had been born in the same conditions as legitimate children. If we can do anything to reduce that mortality we ought to do it.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Viscount Astor.)
TILE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I have only one word to say with regard to this Bill, and that is that as it stands the Government will certainly raise no objection to it. It is possible that I may have to move one or two amendments in Committee, and no doubt the noble Viscount will give due notice as to when he proposes to take the further stages of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FORESTRY (TRANSFER OF WOODS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD LOVAT: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I do not think I need say more than that its main object is to transfer to, and invest in, the Forestry Commissioners those 70,000 acres of woodlands which are administered at present by the office of the Com missioners of Woods. The Forestry Commissioners are charged with the development of sylviculture in these islands, and it is only natural, therefore, that they should administer what really are State forests. This is an agreed Bill amongst the Departments concerned. It involves no charge on the taxpayer; in fact, the reverse is the case. It will lead to economy and undoubtedly to better administration. At the present moment an anomalous state of things exists. The Forestry Commissioners really administer the Crown woods but have no authority or responsibility in doing so. By this Bill a dual control will be removed. There will also be a reduction of staff. It will, therefore, tend towards economy. Woods which are running side by side, one owned by the Forestry Commissioners and the other vested in the Commissioners of Woods, will be administered by one body. That is the effect of Clause 1.
The other clauses are simple and direct. Under Clause 2 the Development Commissioners, who have, in fact, no longer any concern with forestry, will hand over their duties to the Forestry Commissioners. Clause 3 provides that in the unlikely event of the Civil List being discontinued, adequate arrangements shall be made for valuing the woods and handing back the sum at which they are valued to the State. Clause 5 deals with the question of advances to landowners and corporate bodies. It takes away some of those regulations which made this grant inoperative. It also makes possible payments to Members of Parliament. It does not infringe any principle from the fact that Forestry Commissioners are executive officers, and Members of Parliament have no direct influence in the payment of grants.
Clause 6 regularises the position of civil servants in case they become Forestry Commissioners, and gives an additional advantage to those civil servants in the employ of the Forestry Commissioners. The Schedule deals with the safeguards relating to the position of commoners and others interested in land which is to be transferred. In this connection the Society for the Preservation of Commons and Footpaths made certain suggestions which were adopted in another place.
In asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill, I should like to express the hope that it may return to another place more or less in the condition in which it was sent up to your Lordships' House. The congestion of business in another place is considerable. This Bill went through with minor Amendments, and unless there is serious objection to any of the clauses I trust that it will return to the other place in more or less the form in which it is at present. This question has been considered for at least two and a half years. The Crown woods are administered by a body who are not really responsible. We have duality of control, which has undoubtedly led to a waste of public money. It should now be ended. There is also this further point. Last winter about 400 schemes were initiated by private individuals and municipal authorities in connection with unemployment. Until this Bill becomes law it is impossible to pay the grants which were promised. The work has been done for at least six months. We had hoped that the Bill would have been got through two or three months ago, but owing to the pressure of business this has been impossible until the present moment. I recommend the Bill to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Lovat.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported, according to Order).

WAR MEMORIALS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES' POWERS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, in moving that this Bill be read a third time I have nothing to add to what has been already said. The points which have arisen have been satisfactorily answered.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Rochdale.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

LIQUOR (POPULAR CONTROL) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, on behalf of the right rev. Prelate, the Bishop of
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Oxford, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to the manufacture, sale and supply of intoxicating liquor, to provide for the popular control thereof, and for other purposes incidental thereto; and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—[Viscount Astor.]
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.
House adjourned at ten minutes before seven o'clock.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
TORQUAY CORPORATION BILL.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
SEAHAM HARBOUR DOCK BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

AIRDRJE, COATBRIDGE AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
SOUTH ELMSALL AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
OAKHAM GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agree to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.

SITTINGS OF PARLIAMENT.
Message from the Commons, That they have come to the following Resolution, namely: That it is expedient that a Select Committee of the Commons be appointed to join with a Committee of the Lords to consider the desirability of altering the customary period of the Parliamentary Session and the incidental changes necessary thereto, and to desire their Lordships' concurrence thereto; the said Message to be taken into consideration to-morrow.
The LORD SPEAKER acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 6),
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8),
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 10).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
LONDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL.
WIMBLEDON AND SUTTON RAILWAY BILL.
BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL.
WEST RIDING OF YORKSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (DRAINAGE) BILL.
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lord Hastings be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Erskine; read, and agreed to.

WEST SOMERSET MINERAL RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

LONDON ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off to Thursday the 26th instant.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CALNE WATER) BILL.
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

TEMPERANCE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1913, AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Thursday next.
COTTON INDUSTRY BILL.
To be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)